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Call to order the July 26 meeting of the Carried Town Council, and at this time I'll recognize our mayor

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of Protem, Ms. Bush, for our ceremony of opening.

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Thank you, Mayor. Please join me for the pledge of allegiance.

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I pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for

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which stands one nation under God in divisible with liberty and justice for all.

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First order of businesses to adopt the agenda, do I have a motion to do so?

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So moved.

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There's a motion.

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Second.

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Second.

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The discussion?

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All in favor, please say aye.

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Aye.

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Your pose.

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The motion carries unanimously.

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We now move to recognition's reports and presentations.

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We have special group of people in our audience.

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Scouts from Troop-210 who are working on their citizenship and the community badge, if you will stand and be recognized.

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Thank you for being here and being involved in your government.

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I'll now turn it over to our town manager, Sean Stegel, for his update.

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Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Council.

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Well, on Tuesday, Ted Boyd and I and Evan from the Chamber had the pleasure of meeting with Epic Games,

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company, a very successful company that has their headquarters in carry, and many of you may

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not be familiar with Epic, but you may be familiar with the game Fortnite, and so if you haven't

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heard of Fortnite, it is right now the most successful video game in the world,

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and they just

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recently had their one-year anniversary where we were there on the one-year anniversary of

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fortnite to really celebrate their success with them and let them know how proud we are

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of them in carry. And it also happened to be the same day that they launched fortnite live

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in China. So this is a company that doesn't have a giant presence, it's not a big logo

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when you drive by their building that are genuinely changing the world in the space of video games

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and in many other areas in their right here in carrying North Carolina and so we want to

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do

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there. I have, it's worth a visit. Interesting how they treat their employees. Yes.

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They're going to just stop by, just pick a hit. I'd probably make a appointment, but you

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make it down like, hey, did you already stop by there? To keep them there day and night, they

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like provide food for them. It's really interesting. There's like sass. Well, sass isn't quite

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like that. Okay, we'll move to our next item, public speaks out. We've included instructions

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for speaking at public speaks out on the printed agenda and if you'd like to speak at public

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speaks out of it as you take a seat in the rows to my right that are shown as reserved

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and followed the instructions on the agenda. Public speaks out speakers have three minutes each

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for their comments and you may speak on any topic as long as it's not a public hearing and that

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works to your advantage because public hearing speakers get five minutes for their comments.

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The three-minute time limit will be enforced to be fair to all of our speakers not to be rude.

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There's a timer on the podium when the light turns from green to yellow that means you have 30 seconds remaining.

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Excuse me, and when the light turns from yellow to a flashing red,

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at that point I'm going to interrupt you and ask you to immediately conclude your comments.

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To have an effective public speaks out item on our agenda.

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And we ask that groups have a spokesperson to reduce repetitive comments.

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And we also ask that if you're the next speaker in line, if you would stand over by the

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stairway, one so that we can move more efficiently and two, so I'll know that there are other

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speakers, so that would be very helpful as well.

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I would ask the audience to respect that this is a business meeting, please do not applaud,

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make remarks from your seats or anything else that may distract from this meeting.

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So now's the time for public speaks out and I would invite our first speaker forward.

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Good evening Mayor, members of Council.

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My name is Glenda Top and I'm here to speak on an item that's not on the public hearing

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it is 16 REC-15.

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It's for the hotel resigning on North Harrison Avenue and I will be brief.

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Just wanted to point out that proposed use complies with the carry community plan that

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designation on the plan as a commercial mixed-use center.

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We feel that the use is an excellent transition from the arboretum and apartments to

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the residential development to the west and south.

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As was pointed out in the staff report, there is a need for additional hospitality rooms

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in this part of Carey, particularly given its location in the vicinity of I-40, North Harris,

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Avenue, and of course, the very successful person office park.

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We've worked with adjacent property owners to address their concerns.

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We meet or exceed buffer and set back requirements.

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We also believe that the use that's being proposed generates less traffic than other possible

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uses that could be on this site given its designation on the carry community plan, and

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also the trips tend to be not at peak hour times.

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I think it is also important to point out that during the time that it's taken to come to

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you tonight for the potential vote, we have worked very diligently to revise the plan

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to reflect the wishes and what the neighbors staff and the council have asked for.

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We do believe that the effort has been very collaborative and in this way we feel it has

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been extremely beneficial to everyone involved, and we believe that the product and the plan

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associated with it is not only good for this part of carry, but also good for carry

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overall.

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And again, thank you for the opportunity to address council.

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And lastly, I just wanted to recognize there are people here tonight in support of the request

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and just would like to have them either stand up or raise their hands.

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Thank you.

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Thank you, Ms. Tot.

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Good evening, Travis Fluitt with Kimlin Horton Associates here on behalf of the applicant for 16 R.A. Z. 15.

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I just want to talk briefly about the site access and now we go to this point.

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More coordinate with the OTH over the last two years in CQT has been very consistent.

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The access, which is very limited on Harrison Avenue, will be right in right out only.

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The only way to get full movement access would be halfway between West and Parkway

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and research drive, which falls on the property to the south.

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The applicant is trying to coordinate with that property owner and to obtain a cross-access

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easement to get that full movement access, power of that property owner was not interested

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in pursuing that.

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So where we are is any extrafic exiting the site that does not go through the arboretum left

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turn right on to Harrison and make a U-turn research done here in North Carolina and across

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the country has consistently shown that U-turns are safer than unsignalized left-turns

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for both fatalities and injury accidents and just a number of accidents in general.

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The TAR update has said that this will not be a problem for the access and will not negatively

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impact significantly the traffic on Monobillo Drive.

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The U-turn was originally supposed to be a research drive, however, in coordination with

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in CDOT and town staff, concerns were brought to light about the conflict with the right

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turns of research drive therefore that U-turn was moved to Monobello Drive.

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Kind of in summary, town staff, the towns consultant, traffic consultant, Kim Lee Warren,

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and the North Carolina Department of Transportation, I've said that the proposed access

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condition is a safe and efficient access condition for the site and really any

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development that goes in here whether it's single family residential hotels, Walmart,

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a 30 store office building will be subject to the same access conditions. This is

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really a case of NCDOT dictating the terms. I'm sure the applicant would love to

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have a full moon drive around here to have a new but that's just not not the case.

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Thank you. Thank you. I'll be here all night.

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In case you have any questions.

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Next speaker please.

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My name is Jack Van Dyke. I live on 120 Winburne Drive.

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I have a piece of report which is called five reasons why Amsterdam works so well for bikes.

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And the under title is, if you don't follow all five,

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you city will not be successful with bikes.

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The city of Amsterdam has about 70 years worth of experience with it.

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And the main reason that I say this in person is because rule number two is very important.

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The rule number two says that you have to separate the car lanes and the bike lanes.

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In Amsterdam they do it by raising them like a sidewalk in which it or cancels

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I just read, they have toilet-ball blunders glued to the street, so to keep them separate.

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If you don't do that, keep in mind, someone will die.

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There is no battle that ever is won by a bike.

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It's always won by the car.

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So for that reason, I have given you all a point of fun, and you, Mr. Seagull, has it in your

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office, Mr. Alt, has it in his group?

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Thank you, Mr. Fendell.

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My name is Bill Wolfe, and I live at 121 West Cornwall Road, directly at the proposed

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new Glent Air entrance on Cornwall.

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I want to thank the Council and Zoning Board for moving forward with the expansion, and

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I want to briefly repeat three points I made at a previous public hearing.

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First, I'm convinced the new development will be attractive, add both to our neighborhood

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and the heart of carry and is better for my neighborhood compared to other likely

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developmental alternatives for this valuable property. Second, I've lived in

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Wake County since 1982. My observation is that during large projects, adjacent

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property values suffer due to uncertainty, but after good projects are completed,

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nearby property values recover. Therefore, my preference is for you to grant the

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forward and minimize our period of uncertainty.

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Third, there are still details to work out after the zoning approval as the project moves forward.

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But Glen Air has to get approvals as they go and they've demonstrated an attitude of cooperation.

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It's also obvious they are motivated to build another attractive complex.

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So again, please grant this rezoning request move forward and don't drag this out.

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Thank you all.

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Thank you.

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Next speaker, please.

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Good evening, members.

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The Mayor and members of the Council.

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My name is Mike Robbins, I'm the property manager for the Arboridum at Western, and I'm here

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tonight.

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I work with Stoltz property management, and I'm here representing Arboridum Kerry LLC, which

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are the owners of the Arboridum property.

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On behalf of the company, we'd like to offer our support for the proposed rezoning and for

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the daily seven hotel project that has been being discussed for a while.

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This type of hotel project would be a tremendous benefit for the restaurants and shops and

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services located in the arboretum, the access road that is being considered that would go

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there would be a tremendous benefit because of the connectivity that we would have between

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the two properties and it would give the hotel guests the opportunity to either drive or use

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the walkway that has been proposed.

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We also feel that it would be a benefit to the hotel guests because they would have the opportunity to

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use either the Harrison Avenue Exit or the two Western Parkway Exits located on the operating property.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Next speaker please.

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Good evening, Mayor and fellow council members. My name is Joel Williams. I've been a citizen here in

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case. It's 1960, so I'm still alive. I live over in the wallet state area. I've lived there since

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June 1, 1973. I've owned the property that we're discussing the hotel property that's under

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forty-some years. And I won't repeat what the manager there at Arboridham or Ms.

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Linda Tuppet said, I've had many people approached me about this property of the

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years. I've never seen a family like the Daly's that are into the hotel business that

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have been over backwards to work with the town and all this around the neighbors. And I certainly

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hope that you find in your hearts to support this.

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Thank you very much.

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Thank you, Ms. Wood.

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Next speaker, please.

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Mr. Mayor and members of the Council.

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Good evening.

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My name is Chuck Anderson.

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I reside at 1429 Deborah Drive in Carrey.

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Where my family and I have lived for over 25 years.

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My three children attended Farmington Wood School.

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East Carrey Middle School.

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And they all graduated from Carrey High School.

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My wife, Marsha, is a teacher at Carrey High School and has been for almost 20 years.

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We are embedded in and committed to our great community.

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And it's in that capacity that I speak to you tonight.

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In support of rezoning case number 16, our easy 15, we're in the applicant request rezoning

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of Mr. Williams property approximately 7.2 acres at 1623 North Harrison from R40 to mixed

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use development. In connection with the planned development of two hotel properties consisting

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of about 250 rooms. The property is located just south of the arboretum development and is

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in a mixed use overlay district with mixed with mixed within a mixed use center. The rezoning

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and proposed use of the property is consistent with the comprehensive plan and the character

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of that district. Hotel development in this area will serve the needs of our community

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and create some employment opportunities. The hospitality industry generates direct spending,

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tax revenues, and employment. Occupancy in our area has grown consistently annually since

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2009, and in fact now, room demand exceeds the growth in supply.

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And this project will employ about 100 people.

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I understand that our adjoining property owner really

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Creek investments, they own law for of the arboretum,

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recently contacted the town attorney and raised issues with a

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foot easement from the Williams property across the really creek property the lot for to the

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arboretum interconnecting street Renaissance park place. While I don't believe those issues

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bear on the rezoning case as presented to the Council, I do feel to clarify a couple of points.

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Recreak has not disputed the existence of the easement because the public land records clearly

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show that the easement has been there since his earliest 2005 reacquired the property

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lot for in 2008.

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In addition to the clear land title records, the access from the William's property through

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the Arboridum has been addressed in at least three zoning cases going back to 1996 and

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is recently as 2005. In each of those cases, the zoning case approval was expressly conditioned.

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Mr. Anderson, I'm sorry, but your time has expired.

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Thank you.

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If you would like, you can leave your comments with the clerk and she'll make sure we get

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a copy of that.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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I appreciate your time.

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Next speaker, please.

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Good evening. Mr. Mayor, members of the Council, Jason Barron, with Morning Star

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a long group here on behalf of a redicrete investments to speak with respect to that

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Number 4.7 on your consent agenda, which is the North Harrison hotels, I'm going to jump right into the point that the last speaker was making with respect to the access easement.

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Redie Creek Investments does not dispute it all whatsoever that there is in fact an access easement.

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The question is, what can that access easement be used for?

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North Carolina law like many other jurisdictions provides that when an owner of land and this is a private access easement.

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When an owner of land conveys an access to an adjacent owner, there goes with it a certain bundle of sticks associated with those rights.

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what can I use it for? If I live next to my neighbor and he says, hey, I want access over your property,

224
00:20:25,070 --> 00:20:29,030
fine, you live next door. That's okay. You can't go develop a shopping center on that property.

225
00:20:29,210 --> 00:20:32,110
Then say, well, you have to deal with it because you gave me an access easement.

226
00:20:32,330 --> 00:20:37,050
That's the exact issue here. When this easement was created, the site was zoned for low-density

227
00:20:37,050 --> 00:20:42,210
residential. It had long been planned for medium-density residential. In fact, a site that

228
00:20:42,210 --> 00:20:46,810
re-creak investment owns on the south of this property that a buttsmanabella was also

229
00:20:46,810 --> 00:20:49,570
on range plan for medium density residential.

230
00:20:50,330 --> 00:20:54,270
The understanding at that time, when my client acquired the property in 2008, the assumption

231
00:20:54,270 --> 00:20:59,350
was at some point that site would develop for at most a medium density residential use.

232
00:20:59,610 --> 00:21:03,030
Reading Creek Investments hired there on traffic engineers to determine the difference

233
00:21:03,030 --> 00:21:06,930
in traffic between a hotel use and a medium density residential use.

234
00:21:07,210 --> 00:21:08,470
It's five times different.

235
00:21:08,770 --> 00:21:13,430
The peak hour trips generated by a hotel use versus a medium density residential use is five

236
00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:14,310
times different.

237
00:21:14,310 --> 00:21:17,970
Under North Carolina law, that's an unlawful enlargement of the access easement.

238
00:21:18,050 --> 00:21:22,390
We raise the issue because we want the council to understand, we want the community to understand.

239
00:21:22,790 --> 00:21:27,250
And it was certainly constructive and important to the planning and zoning board.

240
00:21:27,550 --> 00:21:33,290
We want everybody to understand if a plan is approved that proposes to put a hotel traffic through

241
00:21:33,290 --> 00:21:36,810
that redie creek investment site, that access is not going to be permitted.

242
00:21:37,470 --> 00:21:41,710
That redie creek investments will defend their rights as a landowner to not have that easement

243
00:21:42,230 --> 00:21:44,930
overburdened by a use that was never contemplated

244
00:21:44,930 --> 00:21:46,470
until the So-Tel Camelon.

245
00:21:47,070 --> 00:21:47,970
That's their first point.

246
00:21:47,970 --> 00:21:51,410
The second point is transportation changes in that area.

247
00:21:51,630 --> 00:21:53,490
They're concerned with health safety and welfare

248
00:21:53,490 --> 00:21:56,470
associated with what is currently being used as a suicide

249
00:21:56,470 --> 00:21:58,390
lane for left-hand turns out of Wessex.

250
00:21:58,570 --> 00:22:01,010
That lane is now going to become a dedicated U-turn lane.

251
00:22:01,550 --> 00:22:04,010
And the last point, they don't believe this is the right use

252
00:22:04,010 --> 00:22:04,870
in the right location.

253
00:22:04,930 --> 00:22:07,270
As I mentioned, they own the site to the south of this.

254
00:22:07,450 --> 00:22:10,350
They anticipate because it abuts Monabello,

255
00:22:10,350 --> 00:22:16,130
of monobellos or residential street, it serves exclusively residential uses, they anticipate

256
00:22:16,130 --> 00:22:20,970
that that site will be used for residential purposes whenever they develop it.

257
00:22:21,330 --> 00:22:26,150
They will be providing cross access to this site when they go to develop that site.

258
00:22:26,450 --> 00:22:30,910
Just like with the site that they currently own, they don't want to have cross access for a hotel

259
00:22:30,910 --> 00:22:33,050
use going through a residential use.

260
00:22:33,110 --> 00:22:37,190
They don't think it's fair to their future residents, they don't think it's fair to the current

261
00:22:37,190 --> 00:22:42,430
residential users of Montobello to have that much more traffic on Montobello. Thank you.

262
00:22:42,590 --> 00:22:44,490
Thank you. Next speaker, please.

263
00:22:50,310 --> 00:22:55,330
Good evening, Mayor, council members. I'm here as a resident of

264
00:22:55,330 --> 00:23:01,730
Wessex subdivision. Did you state your name? Oh, I'm sorry. Cindy Yager. Thank you. I live at 201

265
00:23:01,730 --> 00:23:09,630
Chiselhurst Way in the Wessex subdivision. And I'm here to speak on behalf of most of the people

266
00:23:09,630 --> 00:23:21,310
I speak to on a daily basis about their opposition to putting any more traffic on Montbello or on

267
00:23:21,310 --> 00:23:29,850
Western. We can't get out of our subdivision. We had accidents there. I have three grandchildren

268
00:23:29,850 --> 00:23:39,610
that can't even come to my house because the people are flying down Western Parkway. You make a

269
00:23:40,350 --> 00:23:42,430
And it's close calls every day.

270
00:23:42,630 --> 00:23:44,110
I see it every single day.

271
00:23:44,670 --> 00:23:47,210
So I was actually called the Kerry Police Department

272
00:23:47,210 --> 00:23:48,850
and said, what can we do?

273
00:23:49,190 --> 00:23:51,070
And he said, you need to go out the back way.

274
00:23:51,510 --> 00:23:53,850
Mon, excuse me, use Mon a bellow.

275
00:23:54,570 --> 00:23:57,870
Now they're going to this whole hotel development

276
00:23:57,870 --> 00:24:00,310
is going to do the same thing over there.

277
00:24:00,350 --> 00:24:04,170
We will not be able to get in and out of our neighborhood safely.

278
00:24:04,610 --> 00:24:07,110
And we all have children, and we all have grandchildren.

279
00:24:07,750 --> 00:24:21,190
And it's traffic is a huge issue, and unless you live in that little pocket, come and visit us, come and sit on our subdivision streets and try to get out, try to see what it's like.

280
00:24:21,370 --> 00:24:26,350
I was on West and Parkway yesterday. People were going 60 miles an hour down West and Parkway.

281
00:24:26,930 --> 00:24:30,690
And that's how they come up to our subdivision. We can't get out.

282
00:24:30,690 --> 00:24:37,190
As we try to get out the back way now, we're going to be in the U-turn lane for the hotel.

283
00:24:38,170 --> 00:24:44,030
We can't, it's not safe, and I'm begging you not to let this fall on deaf ears.

284
00:24:44,570 --> 00:24:48,370
This is a safety issue for the entire community.

285
00:24:49,290 --> 00:24:55,290
And I appreciate any support you could give to us because we are locked in.

286
00:24:56,050 --> 00:24:56,870
Thank you.

287
00:24:57,090 --> 00:24:57,930
Thank you.

288
00:24:57,930 --> 00:25:00,890
Anyone else for public speaks out?

289
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:08,650
Anyone at all? Seeing no one will close public speaks out.

290
00:25:09,670 --> 00:25:17,650
The next item on our agenda is the consent agenda. This is item four. And for the benefit of people watching our meeting on TV,

291
00:25:18,130 --> 00:25:23,730
I'll take a moment to review the consent agenda items on the consent agenda we have.

292
00:25:23,730 --> 00:25:49,130
The final action on 17A-10 life international aka life community church of research triangle park and excision, calling for public hearing on the following annexations, 18A-08, Robert's Road and Page Road properties, 18A-11, seeing development LLC, and 18A-12, 8KM properties LLC.

293
00:25:49,130 --> 00:26:01,570
The 17-R-E-Z-31 Glent Air Expansion, 16-R-E-Z-15 North Harrison Hotels, final action on 17-A-13

294
00:26:01,570 --> 00:26:10,210
Campbell Investments in North Carolina LLC in Excession, 17-R-E-Z-32 Campbell Road Storage, proposed

295
00:26:10,210 --> 00:26:17,150
sale of real property located at 215 July Avenue, Condemnation Resolutions for an installation

296
00:26:17,150 --> 00:26:24,570
of traffic signals at intersections of old weatherstone at North West Kiri Parkway and North West

297
00:26:24,570 --> 00:26:33,030
Main Road. Bit of ward for South Kiri water reclamation facility centrifuge. I would like to pull

298
00:26:33,030 --> 00:26:39,810
4.7 North Harrison hotels for discussion, and I know Councilmember Robinson would like to pull

299
00:26:40,670 --> 00:26:46,750
4.6 the Glen Air expansion. I would ask Council at this time if there are any additional items

300
00:26:46,750 --> 00:26:52,370
you would like, called for discussion. If not, I would entertain a motion to approve the amended

301
00:26:52,370 --> 00:26:53,410
consent agenda.

302
00:26:55,650 --> 00:27:00,690
There's a motion and a second. All in favor, please say aye.

303
00:27:00,890 --> 00:27:01,290
Aye.

304
00:27:01,290 --> 00:27:08,250
Any opposed, though? Motion carries six to one. We now move to public hearing. Same rules

305
00:27:08,250 --> 00:27:13,230
apply for public hearings that apply for public speaks out with one exception. Speakers will

306
00:27:13,230 --> 00:27:15,570
now have five minutes for their comments.

307
00:27:16,290 --> 00:27:22,490
Our first public hearing is for 1804 Camp Branch Forms LLC annexation.

308
00:27:22,790 --> 00:27:25,090
Planner Desmond Corley will introduce the hearing.

309
00:27:25,230 --> 00:27:32,230
No action will be taken, and it will return to Council at a future date for a boat at that time.

310
00:27:32,610 --> 00:27:32,850
Ms. Corley.

311
00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:34,190
Thank you, Mayor.

312
00:27:34,330 --> 00:27:35,030
Good evening, Council.

313
00:27:35,430 --> 00:27:42,250
This request is for annexation of a 25.716 acre portion of the properly located at 8732.

314
00:27:42,250 --> 00:27:48,730
and 32 Pierce Olive Road, approximately 3,200 feet south of the intersection with Holly Springs Road.

315
00:27:49,470 --> 00:27:53,010
Subject site is located on the east side of Pierce Olive Road.

316
00:27:54,410 --> 00:28:01,550
This property is not contiguous to the existing corporate limits, and is located outside of Kerry's ETJ in White County's jurisdiction.

317
00:28:02,330 --> 00:28:04,630
Currently is on White County residential 30.

318
00:28:05,470 --> 00:28:11,670
Their property must be brought within the town limits because the applicant wishes to develop it under Kerry's zoning and development regulations.

319
00:28:11,670 --> 00:28:15,810
and a carry zoning designation must be established at the same time.

320
00:28:16,630 --> 00:28:20,250
A rezoning petition has been submitted in conjunction with this annexation request.

321
00:28:20,850 --> 00:28:24,830
However, a public hearing has not yet been scheduled and will occur in the coming months.

322
00:28:25,450 --> 00:28:29,250
The proposed zoning would increase the residential density above that allowed under the

323
00:28:29,250 --> 00:28:34,890
properties current zoning and allow for the development of detached dwellings and townholds.

324
00:28:34,890 --> 00:28:36,210
This concludes staff's presentation.

325
00:28:37,770 --> 00:28:38,670
Thank you, Mr. Dudsman.

326
00:28:40,610 --> 00:28:50,150
At this time, I would open the public hearing for 1804 Camp Branch Forms LLC annexation out and I would invite a first speaker forward.

327
00:28:50,750 --> 00:28:53,970
Anyone to speak of this annexation public hearing?

328
00:28:54,650 --> 00:28:59,970
We'll close public hearing and as I mentioned earlier, we'll see this at a future meeting.

329
00:29:00,930 --> 00:29:04,730
I would open it up also for Council to see if they have any questions.

330
00:29:04,730 --> 00:29:08,570
I have one question mainly for everyone watching.

331
00:29:09,710 --> 00:29:11,850
Not allowed to have flagship annexation,

332
00:29:11,890 --> 00:29:14,210
but you're not allowed to have island annexations,

333
00:29:14,250 --> 00:29:16,610
and you showed a map where this look like it was an island,

334
00:29:16,690 --> 00:29:21,080
can you help explain that or get help to explain that?

335
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,480
Yeah, I think I'm going to have to defer to all the friends.

336
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,000
So can you lower you as far as that line?

337
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:32,220
His grandads got on.

338
00:29:32,220 --> 00:29:36,460
Sorry, this would be a satellite annexation,

339
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:37,900
which we do have capacity

340
00:29:37,900 --> 00:29:41,560
because this is not part of a subdivision.

341
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,220
You don't have to have a full subdivision be a participant

342
00:29:45,220 --> 00:29:47,600
and the petition for an annexation.

343
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:49,280
It is citizen initiated,

344
00:29:50,180 --> 00:29:53,700
but we have not exceeded the amount of land area that we could consider

345
00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:55,580
for a satellite annexation.

346
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,560
We have evaluated at force efficiency that we could provide utilities.

347
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:06,340
And emergency services, but it's within our urban planning area so it could be considered.

348
00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:09,500
Thank you, Ms. Green. Anyone else with questions?

349
00:30:10,220 --> 00:30:16,200
Okay, we'll move to our second public hearing, 18-A-O-5 Duke University Health Systems Incorporated

350
00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:23,420
and Exation Planner. Desmond Corly, once again, we'll introduce the hearing and once again, we will not take action tonight.

351
00:30:23,420 --> 00:30:30,320
Thank you Mayor. This request is for annexation of 69.5 acres located on the north and south

352
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:37,120
sides of Green Level West Road, approximately 545 feet west of NC540. The annexation

353
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:44,400
request also includes about 1.5 acres of adjacent right-of-way. The entire annexation area

354
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,900
is continues with the existing corporate limits which you see in yellow. However, the area

355
00:30:48,900 --> 00:30:55,200
North of Green-Level West Road is within the town's E.T.J. while the area to the south is not.

356
00:30:57,460 --> 00:31:02,200
The area within Kerry's E.T.J. is zoned R-40, and the area within White County's

357
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,460
jurisdiction is zoned residential 40 watershed.

358
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,700
A rezoning petition has been submitted to designate initial carry zoning for the property

359
00:31:09,700 --> 00:31:14,880
south of Green-Level West Road and to change the existing zoning for the property north

360
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,180
of Green-Level West Road.

361
00:31:16,180 --> 00:31:21,580
The public hearing for the rezoning has not yet been scheduled, but will occur in the coming months.

362
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:32,240
The proposed zoning, which includes a preliminary development plan, would allow a mixed use development consisting of office, commercial hotel, and residential uses on the property.

363
00:31:33,500 --> 00:31:34,280
That concludes the presentation.

364
00:31:34,740 --> 00:31:35,500
Thank you, Ms. Corley.

365
00:31:35,940 --> 00:31:42,280
Now, this time, public hearing, 18-AO-5, Duke University Health Systems Incorporated in Exiation

366
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,580
and I would invite a first speaker forward.

367
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,500
Good evening, Mr. Mayor, members of the Council, Jason Barran here on behalf of Duke

368
00:31:48,500 --> 00:31:49,820
University Health Care Systems.

369
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,440
I don't have anything to say about the annexation, other than where we've been working through

370
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,260
the process associated with the rezoning for several months working with your staff, and

371
00:31:57,260 --> 00:31:59,720
we are excited to bring that forward to public hearing when it's time.

372
00:31:59,900 --> 00:32:00,340
Thank you.

373
00:32:00,420 --> 00:32:00,900
Thank you.

374
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,640
Anyone else to speak of this public hearing?

375
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,140
I'm saying no one will close the public here and open out the council members for questions or comments.

376
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:08,880
Mr. Yarhoff.

377
00:32:09,020 --> 00:32:10,240
Just a brief comment, Mayor.

378
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,880
Although this is just the annexation and it's not the rezoning.

379
00:32:13,420 --> 00:32:17,080
It's never too early to mention when there are historic structures on the property.

380
00:32:17,900 --> 00:32:21,980
And there are several on this one that may be very worthy of preservation.

381
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,600
Just want to let you know the staff is aware of that.

382
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,060
They've been doing the research, capital area preservation.

383
00:32:27,060 --> 00:32:28,720
It's been involved into my knowledge.

384
00:32:28,780 --> 00:32:31,200
The applicant has been very cooperative to this point.

385
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:56,060
But since it's not stark, structures are not included in an annexation staff report, I just want to make sure we understood that now, I don't want it to get lost in the shuffle because it's going to be a pretty big rezoning when we comes around to us and I didn't want the stark and certainly that's not the most important piece of it, but I want to make sure that we were aware of it at this early stage. So it doesn't look like it's coming out of the woodwork when it's too late.

386
00:32:56,540 --> 00:32:58,760
Thank you, Mr. Yeroh. Other comments for questions?

387
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,100
All right, we'll see this at a future date.

388
00:33:01,820 --> 00:33:03,720
We move to our third public hearing,

389
00:33:03,820 --> 00:33:05,540
18A06, PMP,

390
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,640
Elijah, and Elijah's LLC annexation.

391
00:33:09,060 --> 00:33:11,300
Mr. Corley will once again introduce the hearing

392
00:33:11,300 --> 00:33:12,820
and no action will be taken.

393
00:33:13,140 --> 00:33:14,080
That's quite a few mayors.

394
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,800
This request is for annexation of 2.38 acres located

395
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,560
as 6900 Jynx Road at the northwest corner

396
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,360
of the Jynx Road and NC55 intersection.

397
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,080
As the man said, no action by council

398
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,260
is necessary at this time as this request will move forward with this associated rezoning

399
00:33:32,260 --> 00:33:33,700
petition for final action.

400
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:40,440
Although the property is continuous to the town's existing corporate limits, shown here

401
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:45,500
in yellow, the request would constitute a satellite annexation because none of the adjacent

402
00:33:45,500 --> 00:33:48,480
properties are joined the town's primary corporate limits.

403
00:33:49,460 --> 00:33:54,120
The site is located outside of Carries, E.T.J., and currently zoned Wait County Highway

404
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:54,720
District.

405
00:33:55,500 --> 00:33:59,560
The property must be brought within the town limits because the applicant wishes to develop

406
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,780
a under-carry zoning and development regulations and a zoning designation must be established

407
00:34:03,780 --> 00:34:04,860
at that time.

408
00:34:06,300 --> 00:34:10,180
The rezoning petition, which accompanies this request, proposes to designate initial carries

409
00:34:10,180 --> 00:34:15,320
zoning for the property and to change the existing carries zoning for the two adjacent properties

410
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:17,160
against zoning yellow.

411
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,040
The public hearing for this rezoning has not yet been scheduled but will occur in the coming

412
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:22,500
months.

413
00:34:22,500 --> 00:34:31,100
The proposed zoning would allow for commercial and or other types of non-residential development on this property, and that concludes that presentation.

414
00:34:31,660 --> 00:34:32,480
Thank you, Mr. Corley.

415
00:34:32,860 --> 00:34:37,120
Now's the time for the public hearing for 18A, it was 6 p.m.P.

416
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:41,320
Bologna Enterprise's LALC annexation, and I would invite her first speaker forward.

417
00:34:44,380 --> 00:34:46,900
Good evening, Mayor, and members of Council Glenn to top.

418
00:34:46,940 --> 00:34:49,340
I just wanted to reiterate what staff pointed out.

419
00:34:49,340 --> 00:34:51,340
This is in conjunction with the resounding.

420
00:34:51,340 --> 00:34:59,420
We have met with the neighbors once since the public hearing, or actually since our first

421
00:34:59,420 --> 00:35:03,760
neighborhood meeting, we have another meeting that we're planning for August to continue

422
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:08,000
to work with the adjacent property owners to address their concerns.

423
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:13,080
And like Desmond said, it will be, at least probably a couple of months before you'll see

424
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,460
it, but I didn't want Council to know that we are continuing to work with the neighbors.

425
00:35:16,620 --> 00:35:17,240
Thank you.

426
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:18,040
Thank you.

427
00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:20,420
Anyone else to speak of this public hearing?

428
00:35:20,420 --> 00:35:25,680
Seeing no one will close the public hearing, open it up to council members for questions or comments.

429
00:35:27,300 --> 00:35:37,700
I have one question because Ms. Graham, while I go said that we are the other one was the satellite annexation, and it's within our limit corporate.

430
00:35:38,260 --> 00:35:39,520
The total amount.

431
00:35:42,060 --> 00:35:45,500
What do we run the risk of hitting the limit?

432
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:48,080
No risk of hitting the limit.

433
00:35:52,060 --> 00:35:57,420
We don't anticipate that happening any time in the near future, because as properties are getting

434
00:35:57,420 --> 00:36:01,800
annexed so many of them are contiguous to our main corporate limits.

435
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,600
So I can follow up with you on a more specific number, but we're not alarmed.

436
00:36:11,300 --> 00:36:11,920
Okay.

437
00:36:12,940 --> 00:36:18,920
We'll move to our fourth and fifth items on public hearings.

438
00:36:19,300 --> 00:36:25,460
The next two items are together, as I said, 18A09, Catherine, Bachelor, Glattis, Logan,

439
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:32,920
Brady Lee, Bachelor in Exation, and 18RZ09, Bachelor row to Simlage, Assistant Planning

440
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:33,840
Director, Reverend.

441
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:35,800
Deborah Grannon will introduce the item.

442
00:36:36,340 --> 00:36:41,440
Council will not take action on the rezoning, and it will be referred to our planning

443
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,500
and zoning board for their review and recommendation,

444
00:36:45,260 --> 00:36:48,040
and the item will return to us at a future meeting.

445
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:48,520
It's granted.

446
00:36:48,820 --> 00:36:49,580
Thank you, Gideon.

447
00:36:49,820 --> 00:36:53,480
Again, this is a request to apply Kerry Zoning

448
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:58,720
to 818.62 acres, and also to look at

449
00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:01,060
annexation of a portion of the property.

450
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,980
Located here in between the Kerry Wake County,

451
00:37:05,020 --> 00:37:08,120
Chatham County line, and the American tobacco trail.

452
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:23,080
So, the zoning applies to 118.62 acres and the annexation is for just a portion of that property, approximately 81 acres that was not already inside carries corporate limits.

453
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:34,360
The growth framework map designates this area as suburban neighborhood, but what's more important is this property lies within the green level special planning area.

454
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:39,320
and more specifically, designated as a neighborhood west of Flat Branch.

455
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,500
According to the Imagine Carry Community Plan, that calls for a lot sizes of a quarter

456
00:37:44,500 --> 00:37:51,240
to one acre in size, predominantly detached residential, with pockets of other uses if clustered,

457
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:59,220
rural character, views from the American tobacco trail shielded, and a 2.5 aggregate gross density.

458
00:37:59,860 --> 00:38:04,300
We've seen a lot of changes occurring out in this area, so this project, along with

459
00:38:04,300 --> 00:38:10,460
Another adjacent project is of interest to the council because, as you've said, to staff,

460
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:15,440
we're seeing the rural character going away, so this is going to take some careful

461
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:20,780
thought and evaluation as it goes through the process, but the standards and the policies

462
00:38:20,780 --> 00:38:23,760
are in the Imagine Carey community plan today.

463
00:38:24,460 --> 00:38:29,880
The existing zoning is residential, 40 watershed, and also the portion that's already been

464
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:36,560
next into the corporate limits is our 40 conditional use. The only condition on that adjacent

465
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:42,360
piece with the brown and the hatch marks is that the use is currently limited to detached

466
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:48,340
residential but it was owned conservation residential overlay district so it also had an

467
00:38:48,340 --> 00:38:54,480
ordinance driven density cap of 1.5 at the time that it was developed. So the overall request

468
00:38:54,480 --> 00:39:00,960
is for transitional residential conditional use for the entire 118 plus acres.

469
00:39:01,980 --> 00:39:06,420
Proposed zoning conditions are to limit the use to age restricted town homes, detached

470
00:39:06,420 --> 00:39:11,180
dwellings, and neighborhood residential, to limit the density to three dwelling units per

471
00:39:11,180 --> 00:39:16,620
acre that town homes be grouped no more than two dwelling units per building so that would

472
00:39:16,620 --> 00:39:21,420
give the illusion of it being more like a duplex style, but they would still be on individual

473
00:39:21,420 --> 00:39:28,360
lots. A maximum of 20% of the unit shall be town homes. Community gathering space is proposed

474
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:34,720
with 10,000 square feet minimum, which is double the standard in the LDO, a neighborhood recreation

475
00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:42,060
site with a minimum of three acres, and then the applicants proposed that lots east of the future

476
00:39:42,060 --> 00:39:46,840
whimperly road extension would not have town homes on them, and would have a minimum lot

477
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:53,100
of 7,000 square feet. So this transportation map helps to illustrate where the future

478
00:39:53,100 --> 00:39:57,940
whimperly road extension would be located and then this area between the American tobacco

479
00:39:57,940 --> 00:40:03,360
trail and that future road is where there would be no town homes and this slightly larger

480
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:09,180
lot sizes. So the transitional residential zoning district allows for a lot size down to

481
00:40:09,180 --> 00:40:16,560
5,000 square feet in size. The site is impacted by stream buffers according to our GIS maps

482
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,700
and field determination of that will be determined at the time of site plan review.

483
00:40:21,460 --> 00:40:25,640
There's a greenway trail on the opposite side of the American tobacco trail proposed.

484
00:40:26,860 --> 00:40:29,780
There are no transit facilities located in this area.

485
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:38,320
However, C-tran does offer door-to-door service if requested for certain citizens, older citizens with special needs.

486
00:40:39,260 --> 00:40:46,760
With our preliminary look at the Carey Community Plan, staff has observed that this would provide a wider variety of housing choices.

487
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:53,500
We're evaluating whether or not the conditions offered by the applicant truly address the maintenance of the neighborhood character.

488
00:40:54,540 --> 00:41:00,980
And does this provide appropriate transitions between land uses and buffering to the American tobacco trail.

489
00:41:01,660 --> 00:41:06,260
And does the road network today and in the future provide for a well functioning system?

490
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:14,940
The biggest concern, as I mentioned, is the compliance with the policies of the ImagineCury Community Plan and this special planning area.

491
00:41:14,940 --> 00:41:19,740
So we're going to be taking close look at that and continuing to work with the applicant.

492
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:24,420
We're also looking at development that's occurred in this area.

493
00:41:25,020 --> 00:41:30,500
There's been a lot of development that occurred under the Conservation Residential Overlay District.

494
00:41:30,820 --> 00:41:36,860
So we saw a number of lots that were one dwelling unit per acre up to 1.5.

495
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,880
And we've recently seen a few pockets coming in with some higher densities.

496
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:49,060
So right now, everything's been under two dwelling units per acre with the exception of the white oak

497
00:41:49,060 --> 00:41:53,600
PDD, where there were a couple pockets with some town homes and a multifamily development.

498
00:41:54,220 --> 00:42:00,720
And now we have two zoning cases that are both actively being pursued, one for 2.75, and

499
00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:03,600
this current one for three dwelling units per acre.

500
00:42:04,300 --> 00:42:10,120
So we're still a ways off from meeting, exceeding that 2.5 aggregate density for the area,

501
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:18,100
But we're watching this, we're being conscientious about what's happening and what's occurring and are eager to hear your feedback and what's changing in this vicinity.

502
00:42:19,420 --> 00:42:25,980
Property owners within 800 feet of the subject property were notified of the rezoning request and the property was posted and advertised.

503
00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:31,540
There was a neighborhood meeting on June 6th. We had about 30 adjacent property owners.

504
00:42:31,540 --> 00:42:38,240
The primary concerns were density and the proposed use questions about town homes, age restricted

505
00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:42,940
use, questions about whether or not there were enough services in this area.

506
00:42:43,380 --> 00:42:47,760
Number of citizens said it's age restricted, but people are still going to have to drive to

507
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,000
the doctor's office and drive to the grocery store.

508
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:56,320
A lot of concern about Bachelor Road, the condition of Bachelor Road, need for improvements

509
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:57,060
on it.

510
00:42:57,060 --> 00:43:01,540
It is a state-maintained road and it does have need for some repair work.

511
00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:04,940
Traffic impacts were big concern to a number of the neighbors.

512
00:43:05,980 --> 00:43:11,960
We've had two phone calls since then, two emails and citizens mostly concerned about access

513
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:13,740
to the site and how would that work.

514
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:20,640
At this time, the applicant would like to present an overview of the request and then following

515
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,200
the public hearing, I'll be available for your questions.

516
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:24,640
Thank you, Ms. Granted.

517
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,840
This time I'll invite the applicant for the remarks.

518
00:43:29,420 --> 00:43:30,500
Good evening, again. Mr. Mayor,

519
00:43:30,660 --> 00:43:31,600
Members of Council, Jason Barry,

520
00:43:31,700 --> 00:43:33,640
with more in-store log group here on behalf of the applicant.

521
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,420
In this case, I'm not going to reiterate what

522
00:43:36,420 --> 00:43:38,460
Deborah described as the nature of the

523
00:43:38,460 --> 00:43:40,780
Quest. She's on a good job of kind of covering the conditions

524
00:43:40,780 --> 00:43:42,320
associated with the use.

525
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:43,920
I want to touch on a handful of things.

526
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,740
One is we're still working with the staff to address the

527
00:43:46,740 --> 00:43:48,980
comments that we have the capacity to address

528
00:43:48,980 --> 00:43:51,440
as it relates to this age-restricted community.

529
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,720
And a lot of what I'm going to talk about momentarily, a lot of the items that have been identified

530
00:43:55,720 --> 00:44:01,540
preliminarily as concerns associated with carry community plan compliance relate to the nature

531
00:44:01,540 --> 00:44:04,580
of the intended use as an age-restricted community.

532
00:44:05,100 --> 00:44:10,040
Lot's size is directly related to the fact that the target demographic, which is 55 and over.

533
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:14,400
I mean, this is an age-restricted 55 and over active adult population, they don't want larger

534
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:14,740
lots.

535
00:44:14,900 --> 00:44:15,880
They're looking for smaller lots.

536
00:44:15,900 --> 00:44:18,920
They had the larger lots and they're looking for the opportunity to move down.

537
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,540
And so having the smaller lots of allowance for that flexibility,

538
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:24,960
the density associated with

539
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,540
it, and I want to talk about that in more detail momentarily, but the density, you know,

540
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:30,980
is a direct reflection of the type of community this is.

541
00:44:31,220 --> 00:44:34,180
It's not your traditional market rate three units of the acre.

542
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:35,620
It generates less traffic.

543
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:40,200
It certainly has no impact on schools, and so, you know, age restricted communities just operate

544
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,180
differently than a traditional market rate community.

545
00:44:44,020 --> 00:44:48,660
As you all are aware, there's a tremendous need for age-restricted housing and housing

546
00:44:48,660 --> 00:44:52,100
for seniors in general in the town of Cary and in the market in general.

547
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:57,020
And so we believe that providing for age-restricted opportunities continues to be a priority

548
00:44:57,020 --> 00:44:59,980
of the town, as you all are aware that it's probably the good thing to do.

549
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:29,780
I think the, I think it was said that the largest growing population in the town of Kerry right now is the, the, the aging population, the folks here getting ready to retire. And it, it continues to be who've the market if we're going to be successful as a community to provide opportunities for seniors who have lived in Kerry, whose kids have grown up in Kerry, to provide opportunities for them to stay in the town of Kerry. And we believe that this directly addresses that interestingly enough a couple of days ago and I don't know if this is a product of the fact that everywhere you go with an electronic

550
00:45:29,780 --> 00:45:37,980
to buy somebody is listening, but WRL pushed an article to me on my WRL feed that was published

551
00:45:37,980 --> 00:45:42,400
on May 22nd, and this happened two days ago, but it was talking about the psychological

552
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:46,500
benefit of housing for seniors, of senior living communities.

553
00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:48,000
I could not actually send up to my team.

554
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,580
I was like, this can't be serendipity, you know, big brothers out there listening to me.

555
00:45:51,580 --> 00:45:56,280
Herb me talk about senior handling, suddenly it shows up in my WRL page, but it was a great

556
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,640
article on a happy identity, but it talks about the psychological benefits of

557
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,820
having seen your communities, how important that is to the senior to seniors as they begin

558
00:46:03,820 --> 00:46:08,100
to age, to provide for communities where they are comfortable with, they're with people

559
00:46:08,100 --> 00:46:09,000
like themselves.

560
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,400
As I mentioned previously, two clear benefits, and I want to talk about a third, but two clear

561
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:21,840
benefits of housing, four seniors is first it generates significantly less traffic than a standard

562
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:26,600
market rate community would, especially during the peak hour, where you see you're probably

563
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,700
your biggest drop off as compared to market rate is during peak hour trips.

564
00:46:31,660 --> 00:46:34,300
And so one of the benefits is it generates less traffic.

565
00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:38,860
Second, there's not a whole lot of school impact when you have a senior living community.

566
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:45,560
The condition, as it's currently worded, beats the federal guideline and one of the things they're still trying to figure out from a community standpoint,

567
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:48,820
is how we're going to word that condition.

568
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:54,280
The federal guidelines require that at a minimum 80% of the residents have to be above the age of 55.

569
00:46:54,280 --> 00:47:03,780
And that's it we've committed to we're still trying to figure out from a community operation standpoint whether that needs to be more than a but that's what the federal guidelines require in order to qualify

570
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:09,180
The third thing I want to mention you know the benefit of senior housing relates to something I touched on previously

571
00:47:09,180 --> 00:47:18,480
It it allows for folks to stay in the area that they grew up and in an area like this as you all are where it's changing as Deborah mentioned a lot of development is occurred in this area

572
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:25,980
there's a lot of market rate homes being built, providing for a blend of senior homes along with

573
00:47:25,980 --> 00:47:30,940
market rate homes provides for, in addition to Asian place opportunities, provides for

574
00:47:30,940 --> 00:47:34,960
intergenerational opportunities. There provides for the opportunity for folks who have lived here

575
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:40,040
to live closer to their kids, closer to their grandkids. Whether they will, we don't know, but

576
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:45,760
certainly provides the opportunity to do so and does so in close proximity. A couple things I want

577
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,640
touch on, first we believe that having a senior community adjacent to the American

578
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,220
Tobacco Trail is a real benefit to the site.

579
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:57,840
This is an active adult population, it's 55 and older, and so we think the American

580
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,080
Tobacco Trail is a real asset to a site like this.

581
00:48:00,660 --> 00:48:05,940
This site is actually only about two miles away from the edge of the Green-Level West Destination

582
00:48:05,940 --> 00:48:06,260
Center.

583
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,300
As you all are aware, the town of Kerry, when you adopted the Kerry community plan, designated

584
00:48:10,300 --> 00:48:14,580
five areas in the town where the most intense development would occur.

585
00:48:14,580 --> 00:48:22,160
5. There's just 5 of them. You all have talked about a lot of them so far. You've heard the annexation that's coming along for it for Duke's project in that

586
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:30,820
Destination Center. There's going to be significant intense development in that Destination Center. There will be services provided in those areas and this site is only two miles from it

587
00:48:30,820 --> 00:48:39,580
And so it while it feels like it's isolated while it feels like services aren't there services are certainly coming to this area and it's only two miles away

588
00:48:39,580 --> 00:48:42,000
And again, it's a 55-and-older community.

589
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:46,640
It's not, this is an a congregate care facility where we're,

590
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:50,160
where travel will need to be provided for the residents who are there.

591
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,980
They're certainly capable of driving back and forth to the grocery store.

592
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:58,520
A handful of observations with respect to what the staff has talked about.

593
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:01,460
Again, lots of size, it's a by-product of the target demographic.

594
00:49:02,500 --> 00:49:06,560
Shielding the site from view, we have located the larger lots, and it

595
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:11,520
located, you know, detached large closures to the American tobacco trail, but we understand

596
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:16,340
where staff is coming from and ensuring that we, we beef up our, our conditions with respect

597
00:49:16,340 --> 00:49:22,520
to streetscapes and things of that nature, uh, density. We recognize full well that there's

598
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:27,380
an aggregate density of 2.5 dwelling units per acre in this, this special planning area that

599
00:49:27,380 --> 00:49:31,780
we don't meet that. We're, we're above three. Couple things on that first, it's an aggregate

600
00:49:31,780 --> 00:49:37,080
density so it contemplates some will be above and some will be below and we recognize

601
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:42,740
we're above it but we think as a senior community it's the right opportunity to have

602
00:49:42,740 --> 00:49:46,560
that number bump above it that if you're going to exceed the two and a half dwelling

603
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:51,020
unit per acre doing it with a senior community is the right thing to do and why is that?

604
00:49:51,940 --> 00:49:59,840
Well the traffic is a big part of that in fact if this were a market rate community as opposed

605
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:05,760
seniors, the number of trips that we generate as seniors, the density would have to be 1.47

606
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:10,720
dwelling units per acre at market rate to generate the same amount of traffic that's being

607
00:50:10,720 --> 00:50:17,180
generated for this three dwelling unit per acre senior community. Ironically enough, that's even

608
00:50:17,180 --> 00:50:22,920
below the 1.5 dwelling per acre's recommendation that was included before the carry community

609
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:27,880
plan was re-adopted. And so we think that it's an aggregate number, we recognize we don't

610
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:36,520
but we believe this is the right opportunity to exceed that number and exceed it in a way that won't end up being an overburdened to the area in general.

611
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:39,200
Again, we're continuing to work through the process.

612
00:50:39,420 --> 00:50:41,300
We appreciate never making her staff available.

613
00:50:41,620 --> 00:50:44,960
We have done a lot of brainstorming with them and we will continue to do so.

614
00:50:45,140 --> 00:50:49,160
We look forward to you all's feedback tonight and we look forward to working through the process.

615
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:49,780
Thank you.

616
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:50,720
Thank you, Mr. Baron.

617
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:54,740
Now's the time for the public hearing for both the annexation,

618
00:50:55,300 --> 00:50:59,380
18A09, and the rezoning, 18RZ09, and I'll

619
00:50:59,380 --> 00:51:01,040
invite our first speaker forward.

620
00:51:08,620 --> 00:51:09,520
Good evening, Mayor.

621
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:14,460
Members of council, I've been here before about the annexation

622
00:51:14,460 --> 00:51:16,320
of the property right behind my house.

623
00:51:16,340 --> 00:51:17,540
Could you give it to your name, please?

624
00:51:17,700 --> 00:51:18,100
Sure.

625
00:51:18,380 --> 00:51:19,040
I'm a dean of the lab.

626
00:51:19,220 --> 00:51:20,860
I live at 75th June, a assurance late.

627
00:51:20,900 --> 00:51:22,140
And you asked me for that last time.

628
00:51:22,140 --> 00:51:23,200
I'm just all nervous, sir.

629
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,100
Thank you for allowing me to address you guys tonight.

630
00:51:27,100 --> 00:51:35,280
The definition of rural as defined by Webster is of or relating to the country country people or life or agriculture.

631
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,860
I think that aptly describes the area of Bachelorette.

632
00:51:39,240 --> 00:51:44,100
There are currently less than 30 houses along at road around 50 vehicles and somewhere in the neighborhood

633
00:51:44,100 --> 00:51:45,440
have less than 100 people.

634
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:47,020
That's what makes it rural.

635
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:54,760
By rezoning for this new development, there will be 335 houses, nearly 700 more cars, and around

636
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:59,540
1000 people, the proposed area for this new development will change our community from rural

637
00:51:59,540 --> 00:52:04,720
to a high-density subdivision. In no way does that come under the definition of rural.

638
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:10,660
When bachelor road was asphalted back in 89, the road was not designed for anything but rural

639
00:52:10,660 --> 00:52:14,860
traffic. It definitely won't be able to handle level traffic that is being proposed.

640
00:52:15,700 --> 00:52:20,060
I have lived off of bachelor road for eight years, and at time I've seen police response

641
00:52:20,060 --> 00:52:26,600
four times. Once when I accidentally set off my house alarm, once when Tom and Johnny had their

642
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:31,640
house controlled burns, they could bring in a new house, when my neighbor had to call an ambulance,

643
00:52:32,260 --> 00:52:38,780
and then when another neighbor had a car, their house garage broken into four times and eight years,

644
00:52:39,340 --> 00:52:45,760
that is great for when you consider statistics and how much crime level is. By bringing in that level

645
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:53,320
people, that level of traffic, you're going to have your crime rate go up. You're also going

646
00:52:53,320 --> 00:53:00,660
to have EMS and police response go up their rates go up exponentially and just given the

647
00:53:00,660 --> 00:53:06,460
sheer statistics. We live where we live because we want the rural setting. We want to be in

648
00:53:06,460 --> 00:53:09,880
the middle of the woods with the wildlife, the solitude, and peacefulness that company

649
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,540
to be achieved with minimal human influence.

650
00:53:13,220 --> 00:53:15,680
Before we butter house, we looked at the master plan

651
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:17,520
and the proposed sites.

652
00:53:17,740 --> 00:53:19,940
And we said, hey, we're going to be here for a while.

653
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:21,860
We're going to be able to enjoy this.

654
00:53:21,980 --> 00:53:23,120
It looks like we're not.

655
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:25,160
Our neighborhood is community.

656
00:53:25,740 --> 00:53:27,680
We all know the cars that travel bachelor road

657
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:29,240
and who that car belongs to.

658
00:53:29,500 --> 00:53:31,260
We know who has dogs and who doesn't.

659
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:32,560
We know that comes spring.

660
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:34,180
Dickering full will be out there

661
00:53:34,180 --> 00:53:35,540
and mowing the bacon lots.

662
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,020
And that the Johnson's at the end of the other street

663
00:53:38,020 --> 00:53:39,180
will open their pool.

664
00:53:39,180 --> 00:53:43,980
We know that the other Mr. Johnson will come home at 830 in the morning from breakfast with his

665
00:53:43,980 --> 00:53:49,560
cronies and I will wave at him while I'm walking my dog. Tom has a great garden. Dick puts

666
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:54,760
out pumpkins. Every year that he grows for the residents of Bachelorette to take for their own.

667
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:59,040
Done charge? That's what a neighborhood does. We know each other.

668
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:05,600
By reason this rezoning isn't just by keeping the era rural. It's also about the negative impact

669
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:07,600
that this change will have on our community.

670
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:10,160
This proposed development is pushing us further

671
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:11,920
from the small town field to residents

672
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:13,680
along Bachelorette and Joy,

673
00:54:14,100 --> 00:54:16,360
and into the faceless, soulless subdivision

674
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:17,800
that has become the dominant feature

675
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:19,920
and not just carry, but apex as well.

676
00:54:20,620 --> 00:54:22,500
I urge the members of Council and Planning Board

677
00:54:22,500 --> 00:54:23,920
to keep Bachelorette rural

678
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:26,020
and vote against this proposed rezoning.

679
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:27,000
Thank you.

680
00:54:27,240 --> 00:54:27,660
Thank you.

681
00:54:28,140 --> 00:54:28,780
Next speaker, please.

682
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:37,600
Jeannie Whittlsee, 1132 Bachelorette.

683
00:54:38,780 --> 00:54:40,120
I'm a North Carolina girl.

684
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:43,040
I grew up in Wake County, graduate from Broughton Hospital.

685
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:43,980
I know this area.

686
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,180
I know how it's grown and how it's changed.

687
00:54:46,620 --> 00:54:48,300
They have to apex in 1979.

688
00:54:49,620 --> 00:54:52,300
Our last house on Kelly Road was finally

689
00:54:53,180 --> 00:54:55,340
imminent to main to Holly through it

690
00:54:55,340 --> 00:54:56,080
and road through it.

691
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,360
We ended up selling it and having to move.

692
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,600
So I've been through this stuff already.

693
00:55:02,740 --> 00:55:04,180
I moved out to Bachelor Road.

694
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:06,500
I thought, wow, what a wonderful place.

695
00:55:06,940 --> 00:55:08,100
The neighbors like Adina,

696
00:55:08,100 --> 00:55:11,120
which are dogs chat, we know each other.

697
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:12,440
We know each other.

698
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:13,440
I mean, we know each other.

699
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:16,880
We do things for each other, help each other out,

700
00:55:16,980 --> 00:55:18,060
feed your dogs when they're gone.

701
00:55:18,380 --> 00:55:20,680
Yeah, just, that's sort of thing.

702
00:55:22,260 --> 00:55:24,380
One thing, well, several things concern me.

703
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:26,380
They're nice sidewalks there. It's a rural ride.

704
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:29,020
So when we get a jogging or a dog walking or dog,

705
00:55:29,020 --> 00:55:31,060
riding the bike, grandkids come over.

706
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,220
We're up and down the road because the traffic's not bad.

707
00:55:34,220 --> 00:55:37,920
And that in Ride is pretty safe.

708
00:55:38,900 --> 00:55:40,360
Except for some of the animals.

709
00:55:40,580 --> 00:55:41,840
I've said Wolf, Cody.

710
00:55:44,660 --> 00:55:46,180
I guess those are the biggest animals,

711
00:55:46,620 --> 00:55:49,580
but also are some other little critters on the Ride and Snakes.

712
00:55:49,780 --> 00:55:52,740
I've been seeing an eagle fly overhead one time towards the Lake.

713
00:55:53,980 --> 00:55:55,980
So we enjoy Ride like it is.

714
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:58,620
And the last, one of the last meetings,

715
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:01,640
they were talking about entrance,

716
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:08,020
construction entrance and an out of one of these new subdivisions and it was a bachelor

717
00:56:08,020 --> 00:56:14,580
road over the loading up dump trucks and then coming back. That would destroy our road.

718
00:56:14,980 --> 00:56:20,900
It would literally destroy it. There are no sidewalks to walk a dog or do anything.

719
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:28,740
There are already places in the road that are cracked and damaged a little bit just from

720
00:56:28,740 --> 00:56:31,900
traffic and some logging trucks that had never had logging.

721
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:34,500
So that's a big concern as well.

722
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:38,700
But I'd like you to come out there and see us some time.

723
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:43,000
I'll, we'll fix these some cookies and tea, that's what we do in the south.

724
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:51,040
So those are our concerns that damage to the road, and then the other developments that are

725
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:56,720
down the road, and I'll then several other meetings and you know what they've discussed

726
00:56:56,720 --> 00:56:58,040
some of the meetings already.

727
00:56:59,820 --> 00:57:01,680
You know, we like to keep it like it is.

728
00:57:01,780 --> 00:57:04,760
We're not on some development, but we like the same type

729
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:06,660
of development that we have now.

730
00:57:06,700 --> 00:57:10,980
That's what we've kind of affected the larger lives and

731
00:57:10,980 --> 00:57:13,560
neighbors that talk to each other in that type of thing.

732
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,020
Although, I did kind of like the, I did have a

733
00:57:17,020 --> 00:57:17,620
senior community.

734
00:57:17,620 --> 00:57:19,240
I could fit right into that.

735
00:57:20,020 --> 00:57:22,620
I already have my part of the community that I like

736
00:57:22,620 --> 00:57:30,580
very much. So that's just want to come out and see me sometime. Yeah, I'm serious. I'm there

737
00:57:30,580 --> 00:57:35,660
a lot, see our garden, see our neighbors, and stuff. I'll take a walk down the road with me.

738
00:57:35,820 --> 00:57:43,020
We'll have fun. And we don't want that destroyed by multiple, multiple houses. We love our

739
00:57:43,020 --> 00:57:45,160
neighbors. We would like more neighbors. That's great.

740
00:57:47,740 --> 00:57:50,960
But kind of temperate or what is our

741
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:56,560
That's a little treasure in that corner of Apex and right on the county line, keep it that way.

742
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:57,400
Thank you.

743
00:57:57,620 --> 00:57:58,140
Thank you.

744
00:57:58,820 --> 00:57:59,780
Next speaker, please.

745
00:58:01,340 --> 00:58:03,140
Anyone else for this public hearing?

746
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,720
Seeing no one, I'll close the public hearing.

747
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:10,780
One more.

748
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:34,880
Mayor and members of the board.

749
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,400
Thank you for allowing me this time.

750
00:58:38,020 --> 00:58:39,700
My name is Edward McGowan.

751
00:58:39,700 --> 00:58:42,720
I live at 4,300 Pine Rail Lane.

752
00:58:45,170 --> 00:58:53,610
Pine Rail Lane is adjacent to this complex as being talked about.

753
00:58:54,770 --> 00:59:00,570
I've lived there for over 40 years, in that time we have most of the owners on the road

754
00:59:00,570 --> 00:59:06,490
have agreed to road maintenance agreement, it is not a public maintain road and we've

755
00:59:06,490 --> 00:59:09,950
maintain this road for over 40 years in good condition.

756
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:21,220
There was talk about using pine rail lane as an access.

757
00:59:22,620 --> 00:59:26,780
That's not going to work with

758
00:59:28,860 --> 00:59:29,480
the congestion.

759
00:59:29,780 --> 00:59:35,700
Our first speaker on this subject is made a very good point about the new congestion,

760
00:59:35,700 --> 00:59:44,420
in 300 plus homes, 400 and so, cars, I'm from a environmental study background and I would

761
00:59:44,420 --> 00:59:54,480
speak about the added pollution loss of habitat for wildlife decreased groundwater absorption

762
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:59,220
because you're creating a hard surface with all these structures and roads.

763
01:00:00,620 --> 01:00:02,780
And a

764
01:00:09,630 --> 01:00:17,250
term that I heard a few minutes ago said they were going to shield the American, the Bucketrail. What do that means?

765
01:00:18,010 --> 01:00:28,430
I think the members upon rail laying except for one would like to be shielded from this project also.

766
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:37,480
We don't want one particular member who is not here at this time, if they build condos

767
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:41,160
across from his house, they'll be looking right into it as front door.

768
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:54,000
At this time, I'd like to request that you deny this rezoning and hope you take any consideration.

769
01:00:54,700 --> 01:00:55,260
Thank you.

770
01:00:55,460 --> 01:00:56,000
Thank you.

771
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:57,480
Next speaker, please.

772
01:00:57,480 --> 01:00:58,220
There

773
01:01:04,270 --> 01:01:07,890
are additional speakers out at us that choose weight on the steps, please.

774
01:01:09,030 --> 01:01:10,110
Next speaker, yes.

775
01:01:10,830 --> 01:01:12,690
You could do it afterwards.

776
01:01:17,780 --> 01:01:19,100
Mayor, members of the board.

777
01:01:19,860 --> 01:01:22,960
My name is Marilyn Miller, and I live at 1200 bachelor road.

778
01:01:23,180 --> 01:01:24,360
I didn't plan to speak today.

779
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:28,220
But when I saw the earlier map with the carry limits,

780
01:01:29,140 --> 01:01:34,980
I noticed that nobody mentioned the density along the south side of west,

781
01:01:34,980 --> 01:01:41,060
screen or green-level west road, which I'm assuming is outside the extra territorial space

782
01:01:41,060 --> 01:01:48,100
for carry, but it is a higher density. There are multiple neighborhoods going from just

783
01:01:48,100 --> 01:01:55,060
east of batch the road all the way down green-level west on the south side. All of those

784
01:01:55,060 --> 01:02:01,840
neighborhoods will dump into green-level west, which will increase the traffic there. All

785
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:06,020
So those pay services drain into wide oak creek, which empties into Jordan Lake.

786
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:10,980
So please consider that when considering the rezoning, and that's all I have to say.

787
01:02:11,700 --> 01:02:12,380
Thank you.

788
01:02:13,100 --> 01:02:13,240
Thank you.

789
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:14,660
Anyone else for this public hearing?

790
01:02:16,300 --> 01:02:17,500
Anyone at all?

791
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:18,160
Going once?

792
01:02:18,420 --> 01:02:19,000
Going twice?

793
01:02:20,060 --> 01:02:24,660
I'm going to close public hearing and open it up to council members for questions or comments?

794
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:26,580
How many at this time?

795
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:40,380
I guess if this property is going to be developed, an age-restricted community seems like an appropriate way to do it, the applicants made a good case for that.

796
01:02:40,700 --> 01:02:51,900
But I'm glad to hear the applicant and Mrs. Green and both saying that you're going to continue to work together because I think before it goes too far we need to bring it more in compliance with that special planning area.

797
01:02:51,900 --> 01:02:55,020
There are the criteria that were on the slides.

798
01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:59,720
Density is one of them. It's an important one, but there's design guidelines,

799
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:04,180
there's street state design. There's a lot of things to go along with that.

800
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:07,920
And to get my vote, I would really like to see some added conditions

801
01:03:08,420 --> 01:03:13,980
or and or a concept plan that might delineate some of these.

802
01:03:14,220 --> 01:03:17,940
It's a special planning area, and I think 118.62 acres.

803
01:03:18,540 --> 01:03:19,680
That's a big chunk of land.

804
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:21,800
And I think that ought to be special too.

805
01:03:22,100 --> 01:03:24,360
And right now, the rezoning that's in front of us

806
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:25,380
doesn't look too special.

807
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:26,680
Thank you, Ms.

808
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:27,240
I'm optimistic.

809
01:03:27,940 --> 01:03:28,900
Thank you, Mr. Mr. Hurrah.

810
01:03:29,380 --> 01:03:32,840
The only thing I would add is that the applicants work on this.

811
01:03:33,180 --> 01:03:36,480
You still have to convince me that three units and acres

812
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:38,360
are a good idea in that place.

813
01:03:38,540 --> 01:03:40,120
I'm not convinced that yet.

814
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:42,260
So, Mr. Hurrah.

815
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:45,760
Since I always had a habit of saying what's on my mind,

816
01:03:45,780 --> 01:03:48,720
I just wanted to point out that it was kind of fascinating

817
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:56,160
meeting to me that an applicant earlier opposed a project on Harrison Avenue near Highway

818
01:03:56,160 --> 01:04:05,540
40 because it's too dense, but yet supports the high density project near the White County

819
01:04:05,540 --> 01:04:12,500
I'm just fascinating to me, just figuring that out.

820
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:14,080
Okay, I think.

821
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:15,480
That's sure.

822
01:04:15,500 --> 01:04:22,160
Oh, no, I think that when we struggled with our planning 20, 25 years ago,

823
01:04:22,500 --> 01:04:28,640
I remember having discussed with you about, you know, how do you, how do you,

824
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:31,180
well, you know, reaching a high school.

825
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:40,440
We were struggling with the fact that we're going to get the settlers are coming.

826
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:45,820
They're going to go out there and there was a hundred people a day coming to the county.

827
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:49,360
And we tried to put some protections in.

828
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:52,820
So I think the point, Mr. Yerha was making about the conditions.

829
01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:55,580
I think it's kind of the thing.

830
01:04:57,200 --> 01:05:05,160
We may just on the harsh reality of things have to look at the density differently in today's world.

831
01:05:05,860 --> 01:05:14,300
But that doesn't mean we can't put a high bar up for a lot of those conditions and a lot of those things that try to protect that field.

832
01:05:14,780 --> 01:05:24,220
And that's the only thing I would say to the applicant that a little more has to be done to put my mind at ease about that level of density.

833
01:05:24,220 --> 01:05:29,840
I will add something actually, I think it's going to be really challenging for any applicant

834
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:37,520
on this site to develop and respect the rural feel or protect that rural feel because

835
01:05:38,180 --> 01:05:45,480
it's a little bit harder to what happens with the even at 2.5 units per acre, it's going

836
01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:48,360
to feel much more dense than what's out there today.

837
01:05:49,460 --> 01:05:54,100
So it really does put responsibility on the developer to make sure that whatever he does put

838
01:05:54,100 --> 01:05:58,720
and has those elements that make it incredibly special,

839
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:02,180
that make it a place that enhances the overall community,

840
01:06:02,380 --> 01:06:05,780
especially since so many people are concerned about losing

841
01:06:05,780 --> 01:06:09,560
some really beautiful land around them, and a rural field.

842
01:06:11,540 --> 01:06:15,320
So, two things, and it was going to, you said,

843
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:19,300
you were watching that density, Emma, kind of a math guy.

844
01:06:19,300 --> 01:06:47,540
If we could, you know, draw that out of that whole area that's left, it's supposed to be the 2.5, and if this goes at 3, what is, and we've already got some at 1.42, what is the rest of it have to average to stay under 2.5, and maybe if you'll know of stuff that's coming forward that's proposed at 1.5 for 2.5 for what if anything.

845
01:06:47,540 --> 01:06:49,720
I'd like to give you that matrix.

846
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:50,920
I think it would be helpful.

847
01:06:50,940 --> 01:06:51,920
We'll have that going forward.

848
01:06:52,140 --> 01:06:53,940
I think that would be helpful to me.

849
01:06:54,500 --> 01:07:00,720
And on the rural field, I think the only way I could say that we could maintain it all

850
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:05,760
the rural field for all those neighbors on Bachelor or anybody and go with a higher density

851
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:11,820
than one or two is that you just, everything's got to be lined and buffered so that when

852
01:07:11,820 --> 01:07:17,340
you drive it on the road, you don't know there's 20 houses backed up to the road beside

853
01:07:17,340 --> 01:07:21,300
you because you can't see the houses because there's lots of trees and you're going to have a

854
01:07:21,300 --> 01:07:26,120
rural feel until you turn in that development. I don't know how it's going to develop a rural feel

855
01:07:27,180 --> 01:07:32,280
because the only places that have rural fields to me are like we talked about how special

856
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:38,640
western bark way is. You drive down western and it's beautiful because you don't see what's behind it.

857
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:42,540
You drive down these other places where you see the backyards of houses pushed up against the road

858
01:07:42,540 --> 01:07:47,360
it no longer feels rural. It has a different feel. So the only way I know to keep a rural

859
01:07:47,940 --> 01:07:53,640
feel is that when you drive in road, you just see trees so that you're taking, but you

860
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:58,220
can still achieve density, but obviously buffering lots of trees. I don't know another way to

861
01:07:58,220 --> 01:08:00,220
make it look rural when you drive down the road.

862
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:05,540
Look at trying to struggle with making it look rural, protecting that rural street scape and

863
01:08:05,540 --> 01:08:06,940
it was with the swells.

864
01:08:07,460 --> 01:08:08,560
But I don't.

865
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:10,780
Yeah, I mean, there's a couple.

866
01:08:10,820 --> 01:08:12,680
One of the things I want to do is,

867
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:14,860
because I think we owe it to the developer

868
01:08:14,860 --> 01:08:17,220
and to the community, it's to tell what we like

869
01:08:17,220 --> 01:08:18,840
and what we don't like, so it's the move forward.

870
01:08:18,980 --> 01:08:21,720
And I think you guys have done a great job of doing that.

871
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:24,120
And I'm not going to mention any of the ones that you have.

872
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:26,840
I think when we remove the conservation district,

873
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:29,280
we removed rural field.

874
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:31,340
I mean, that's my personal opinion.

875
01:08:31,420 --> 01:08:34,200
When we remove soils and we say,

876
01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:37,260
I'm not doing that anymore, we're doing curbing gutter.

877
01:08:37,700 --> 01:08:42,080
It no longer feels rural, and I respectfully disagree.

878
01:08:42,340 --> 01:08:44,560
Weston doesn't feel rural to me.

879
01:08:45,140 --> 01:08:49,860
Weston feels very manicured, and that's to be fair.

880
01:08:50,020 --> 01:08:51,760
What we appreciate about Carrie.

881
01:08:52,300 --> 01:08:54,360
I don't know that the folks that live on Bachelor

882
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:56,400
would appreciate it.

883
01:08:56,400 --> 01:08:58,840
I don't think they would think that Weston Parkway,

884
01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:00,180
and I don't want to put words in their mouth,

885
01:09:00,380 --> 01:09:02,820
feels rural to them, and I don't know that they would want it.

886
01:09:02,820 --> 01:09:05,960
But no matter what, there's going to be curbing gutter there.

887
01:09:06,140 --> 01:09:09,120
So it automatically won't feel rural.

888
01:09:09,780 --> 01:09:14,040
And if that's the case, then we have to decide what should this look like.

889
01:09:14,400 --> 01:09:16,700
What would rural feel like?

890
01:09:17,440 --> 01:09:20,900
And then try to help the developer match that.

891
01:09:20,900 --> 01:09:25,820
Does rural feel like a curbing gutter with no houses that you can see from the front?

892
01:09:26,140 --> 01:09:28,360
I would really like to know.

893
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:33,880
And I hope that the neighbors stay very much engaged because that's what I would like to know.

894
01:09:34,060 --> 01:09:35,800
What does rural feel like?

895
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:39,960
Because we don't have a really good definition in that in the carry community plan.

896
01:09:40,980 --> 01:09:44,300
And I'm not sure I'm the best person to make that decision either.

897
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:54,960
The other things that I would just give the developer feedback on is I love the intergenerational idea as an active senior,

898
01:09:54,960 --> 01:10:02,980
Thank you, Mr. Rand, I like the idea that there's somewhere here that I could potentially

899
01:10:02,980 --> 01:10:03,620
downsize.

900
01:10:03,780 --> 01:10:10,040
I like the fact that people are looking at housing stock with no yards, because to be honest,

901
01:10:10,100 --> 01:10:10,600
my kids are gone.

902
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:12,400
There's nobody else to move along for maybe more.

903
01:10:12,740 --> 01:10:15,100
So I do like some of these ideas.

904
01:10:15,140 --> 01:10:22,120
I really do appreciate them, but I like for us to figure out what do we mean and what did

905
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:27,780
the community mean, by real, because conservation district doesn't exist anymore.

906
01:10:28,940 --> 01:10:33,240
And so we need to figure that out, and where would we like to have the larger lots and

907
01:10:33,240 --> 01:10:40,200
give them some feedback to help guide the developer and help the neighbors really participate

908
01:10:40,720 --> 01:10:45,640
in defining what there is. There's lots of time. I hope that they will continue to reach out.

909
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:52,100
I thank them so much for coming and being a part of this and helping to shape what the

910
01:10:52,100 --> 01:10:55,480
development will look like, should it move forward?

911
01:10:56,160 --> 01:10:56,880
Any other comments?

912
01:10:57,280 --> 01:11:00,400
Just pick up on the curb and gutter streetscape thing.

913
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:03,500
From the, you may be 100% right.

914
01:11:04,020 --> 01:11:04,520
I may be.

915
01:11:06,460 --> 01:11:09,120
But from the Carey Community Plan in the Green Level Special

916
01:11:09,120 --> 01:11:12,020
Area, and I don't know exactly what this means either.

917
01:11:12,480 --> 01:11:16,060
But it says, Thurofare and collectors should have streetscape buffers

918
01:11:16,060 --> 01:11:19,940
that are more rural in character than the formal streetscape

919
01:11:19,940 --> 01:11:25,260
found elsewhere in carry. So I don't know exactly what is that look like.

920
01:11:25,300 --> 01:11:28,980
But that means, but that's what the conversations are going to be about, I think.

921
01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:33,060
So preserving existing trees, possibly wider buffers.

922
01:11:33,340 --> 01:11:35,700
I would love to see pictures as we move forward.

923
01:11:35,780 --> 01:11:38,300
I've never seen pictures. I'm at fence rails.

924
01:11:38,540 --> 01:11:42,020
Some had meandering sidewalks rather than the straight sidewalks.

925
01:11:42,020 --> 01:11:44,040
I'm strong rather than grass demo.

926
01:11:44,460 --> 01:11:48,320
Damn, I want to make sure there's a connection between what the residents,

927
01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:53,560
surrounding residents think it means because if they think it's going to look like it looks

928
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:54,280
today.

929
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:56,200
It's not.

930
01:11:56,720 --> 01:11:57,180
It's not.

931
01:11:57,180 --> 01:11:57,320
It's not.

932
01:11:57,340 --> 01:11:59,360
Well, man, I think Ken spoke to it pretty well.

933
01:11:59,500 --> 01:12:00,560
I just don't know.

934
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:02,020
I agree with the example that he used.

935
01:12:03,740 --> 01:12:06,320
If you don't see it, it looks like there's nothing there.

936
01:12:06,380 --> 01:12:10,020
It looks like the trees that we're always there and you can't see the homes behind it.

937
01:12:10,020 --> 01:12:11,300
That feels pretty rural.

938
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:18,300
My concern, I guess, question would be the road network, and can handle the traffic from

939
01:12:18,300 --> 01:12:24,000
additional 300 and some odd units, and what that looks like, what does that mean?

940
01:12:25,100 --> 01:12:31,020
I mean, can the existing roads handle that much additional traffic, because I hear the arguments,

941
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:39,320
we hear a lot of projects, especially out west, where there's no services out there, but people

942
01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:45,020
over 55 do still drive cars people over 65 75 still drive car so that means they're going

943
01:12:45,020 --> 01:12:48,280
to be on the road every time they need to go to the store or run an errand they're going

944
01:12:48,280 --> 01:12:55,280
to be on the road you know transit is not coming out here any time soon remotely so

945
01:12:58,030 --> 01:12:58,930
let me let me help

946
01:12:58,930 --> 01:13:06,690
you with a little bit so to the south here you have green level west road and running perpendicular

947
01:13:06,690 --> 01:13:13,890
to that, you have Wimberly Road that goes down into Apex, and there's a plan on the intent

948
01:13:13,890 --> 01:13:19,210
on our comprehensive transportation plan to have Wimberly Road extend to the north and become

949
01:13:19,210 --> 01:13:24,210
a collector road that is still being debated, but on our plan to show us four lanes.

950
01:13:25,150 --> 01:13:31,190
So the actual plan is to have a very important north-south connector coming through this

951
01:13:31,190 --> 01:13:34,470
site and the site's to its north and south.

952
01:13:34,470 --> 01:13:44,070
So I don't think the existing roads will pick up, we'll bear the burden of carrying a lot of the traffic, I think this new road that these two developments would put in.

953
01:13:45,090 --> 01:13:48,790
So I think that would kind of address that aspect of it.

954
01:13:49,610 --> 01:14:00,330
I do want to kind of point out the fact that we had in place the rural streetscape for many years, and I don't know how many years, but let's just hypothetically call it 12 years or 15 years.

955
01:14:00,330 --> 01:14:08,550
And out of everything that was built, we ended up getting everything looking suburban with really crappy road system.

956
01:14:08,590 --> 01:14:10,170
He had bitches in everybody's front yards.

957
01:14:10,250 --> 01:14:11,750
Yeah, it just looks bad.

958
01:14:12,210 --> 01:14:15,410
And then the people who live there go, well, when am I going to get my sidewalk?

959
01:14:16,130 --> 01:14:20,710
And I said, well, I'm sorry, you're not getting the sidewalk because it was done this different way.

960
01:14:21,030 --> 01:14:23,330
There's only one exception to that, and that's on Morrisville.

961
01:14:24,390 --> 01:14:28,410
Parkway extended to the west of Green Level chirping road.

962
01:14:29,390 --> 01:14:32,070
Well, it's not the neighborhood, it's the road itself.

963
01:14:32,090 --> 01:14:36,190
If you look on the right side of the road, the north side of the road, there's some, like

964
01:14:36,190 --> 01:14:41,350
a split rail fence or something, there's, it's the greenway set off instead of a side of

965
01:14:41,350 --> 01:14:42,210
a little bit further away.

966
01:14:42,390 --> 01:14:47,670
That's the only example I can think of that kind of sort of got there, but it's not enough

967
01:14:47,670 --> 01:14:53,950
to hold on to, because that's just one small example that's, you know, basically overshadowed

968
01:14:53,950 --> 01:14:57,050
by a lot of rural streetscapes that didn't work.

969
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:08,000
I would be trying to pursue maybe a well-vegetated street scape, one that is aesthetically pleasing that can, you know,

970
01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:14,800
buffers that can help screen the people who live there now from, you know, a lot of density.

971
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:24,160
That's what I would be kind of striving towards more than trying to strive towards a rural street scape that may not manifest itself.

972
01:15:24,160 --> 01:15:34,160
Okay, despite my poor example, I'll say that and I was never to know the explain, but if we

973
01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:39,480
did have very wide roads for you driving down, very wide buffers that you couldn't see

974
01:15:39,480 --> 01:15:46,540
houses, then I think we could accomplish the smaller lots for the senior league that don't,

975
01:15:46,680 --> 01:15:52,140
they won't smile a lot because you're able to give up quite a bit in buffers and you still

976
01:15:52,140 --> 01:15:55,800
can get a pretty high density, but having just a lot small lots, and you're going to make

977
01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:59,500
the people happy that can't see the houses, and you're going to make the people happy

978
01:15:59,500 --> 01:16:01,140
they don't have to mow the grass, like Lori.

979
01:16:01,160 --> 01:16:01,840
That's a good point.

980
01:16:02,320 --> 01:16:05,540
Well, and then just be aware that when you say it, thank you.

981
01:16:05,660 --> 01:16:10,140
When you say it that way, what you're actually saying is you'd be okay for higher density,

982
01:16:10,280 --> 01:16:16,840
because the buffers are bigger, and so that gives some direction, I think, to the developer

983
01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:22,120
that says, okay, well, you know, we might, we might be open to higher density is

984
01:16:22,120 --> 01:16:28,980
you had 50 or 100 foot buffer so that you can't see any of those from the road. The question

985
01:16:28,980 --> 01:16:34,160
though that I have for them is if I were them is give me some definition, give me some ideas of

986
01:16:34,160 --> 01:16:37,260
what this looks like and I think these are some of the ideas, something that they're rallying.

987
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:41,540
Okay, very good feedback. Good luck with that, Jason.

988
01:16:42,480 --> 01:16:46,440
You know, I encourage them one last time. Maybe laugh a little bit. Sorry Jason, I throw you into

989
01:16:46,440 --> 01:16:53,460
us here. When you're talking about they, you know, the 55 and older crowd, they, all but

990
01:16:53,460 --> 01:16:59,160
two of us up here, three of us up here sitting at this table are they. You don't have to

991
01:16:59,160 --> 01:17:03,300
tell us how they think. I think they know how they think.

992
01:17:05,100 --> 01:17:07,980
You're rubbing it in. Some of us just forget.

993
01:17:10,660 --> 01:17:13,720
All righty, this will go to our advisory board

994
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:16,100
of citizens called the Planning and Zoning Board.

995
01:17:16,260 --> 01:17:20,200
And what they will do is review this from a citizens perspective

996
01:17:20,200 --> 01:17:23,420
and give their feedback, and it will come back to Council

997
01:17:23,420 --> 01:17:26,840
where we will evaluate all the information,

998
01:17:27,200 --> 01:17:30,360
including the staff's recommendation, the Planning

999
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:35,800
and Zoning Board of Advisory citizens will evaluate

1000
01:17:35,800 --> 01:17:38,380
their recommendation, and any other information

1001
01:17:38,380 --> 01:17:40,860
that we have will make a decision at that point.

1002
01:17:41,020 --> 01:17:43,020
And that's at least a couple of months away.

1003
01:17:43,020 --> 01:17:45,320
So please stay engaged, please stay involved,

1004
01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:48,160
and if you have any questions, please let us know.

1005
01:17:48,660 --> 01:17:50,100
Thanks again for coming.

1006
01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:50,860
Thank you, Bill.

1007
01:17:50,860 --> 01:17:54,620
All right, we now move to the next public hearing.

1008
01:17:55,240 --> 01:17:57,300
And again, it's going to be two together.

1009
01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:01,560
It's 18A10, Robert, Louis, and Jack, Louis,

1010
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:05,120
Dillard, Annexation, and 18RZ10, Louis Drive,

1011
01:18:05,120 --> 01:18:08,200
residential, rezoning, and senior planner, Katie,

1012
01:18:08,400 --> 01:18:09,640
Drive will introduce the item.

1013
01:18:10,040 --> 01:18:12,220
It will not take action on this item tonight.

1014
01:18:12,220 --> 01:18:18,340
Instead, it will be referred to our planning and zoning board, and we will make our decision at a future day.

1015
01:18:18,500 --> 01:18:18,760
That's trust.

1016
01:18:19,420 --> 01:18:20,320
Good evening, Council.

1017
01:18:21,120 --> 01:18:28,220
Well, your consideration is a request to annex and reasoned 6.72 acres at 675 Louis Drive.

1018
01:18:28,880 --> 01:18:30,260
That's why you're like a victim to the ward.

1019
01:18:30,480 --> 01:18:36,740
The site has one detached dwelling at the adjacent to the Brits Zone neighborhood, and it's just east of Highway 55.

1020
01:18:36,740 --> 01:18:44,900
The properties within Wake County is sent Wake County R-40 watershed, and because the site's

1021
01:18:44,900 --> 01:18:50,840
currently in Wake County's jurisdiction, annexation is required in order to apply carry zoning.

1022
01:18:51,480 --> 01:18:56,340
The shaded areas in yellow within this map are within the town's existing corporate limits.

1023
01:18:58,020 --> 01:19:02,780
So for this zoning, the applicant is proposing transitional, residential, conditional use.

1024
01:19:02,780 --> 01:19:09,880
The zoning conditions they're proposing are to limit the use to detach dwellings with a minimum

1025
01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:17,660
lot size of 8,000 square feet. They're proposing five foot, five side yards setbacks and 20 foot front

1026
01:19:17,660 --> 01:19:19,520
and rear yards setbacks each.

1027
01:19:21,460 --> 01:19:26,760
So staff has evaluated the site using the Imagine Carey Community Plan and our preliminary analysis

1028
01:19:26,760 --> 01:19:30,160
found applicable policies from the live and the shape chapter.

1029
01:19:30,160 --> 01:19:35,760
When looking at the lift, the lift chapter, the site is considered an infill development, given

1030
01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:37,820
its proximity to the Brookstone neighborhood.

1031
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:43,380
Infill projects are evaluated to ensure the use of the transitions complement the adjacent

1032
01:19:43,380 --> 01:19:43,940
neighborhood.

1033
01:19:44,540 --> 01:19:49,460
And when we look at the shape chapter, we evaluate a case using the future-growth framework map

1034
01:19:49,460 --> 01:19:50,520
and review transitions.

1035
01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:56,680
The site is designated as a traditional neighborhood on the future-growth framework map, which

1036
01:19:56,680 --> 01:20:01,280
is generally typified by large master plan communities which have some degree of housing

1037
01:20:01,280 --> 01:20:04,620
mix, although detached dwellings are the most predominant.

1038
01:20:06,660 --> 01:20:10,640
To evaluate transitions, we look at the site compared to the adjacent homes.

1039
01:20:11,080 --> 01:20:17,300
In this case, the applicant has proposed a TR-C-U-Zoning district, which is adjacent to the

1040
01:20:17,300 --> 01:20:20,600
Brooksstone neighborhood that has an R8-C-U-Zoning district.

1041
01:20:21,260 --> 01:20:26,700
The applicants are proposing the limit they use to single family, and a lot sizes to 8,000 square

1042
01:20:26,700 --> 01:20:27,080
feet.

1043
01:20:27,080 --> 01:20:31,200
So in this case, the use and a lot sizes will be the same.

1044
01:20:32,900 --> 01:20:36,300
We can also evaluate transitions by looking at the setbacks

1045
01:20:36,300 --> 01:20:37,620
and the lot widths.

1046
01:20:37,720 --> 01:20:42,180
This table shows you the proposed setbacks and lots

1047
01:20:42,180 --> 01:20:45,320
widths for the proposed zoning compared to Brookstone.

1048
01:20:46,920 --> 01:20:51,060
So as I noted, this site is asking for TRCU as opposed to Brookstone,

1049
01:20:51,180 --> 01:20:52,240
which is RECU.

1050
01:20:52,900 --> 01:20:56,140
They have increased the minimum lot size 8,000 square feet.

1051
01:20:56,140 --> 01:20:59,860
So, these will be the same minimum lot sizes.

1052
01:21:00,420 --> 01:21:04,500
The front yard set, that will also be the same at 20 feet, 20 feet, 20 feet each.

1053
01:21:04,980 --> 01:21:09,100
We will see a difference when it comes to the side yard set back, which will be at 5 feet,

1054
01:21:09,340 --> 01:21:11,600
compared to 10 feet in the Brooklyn neighborhood.

1055
01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:17,300
Also, it's light difference with the rear yard set back at 20 feet, compared to 25 feet.

1056
01:21:17,740 --> 01:21:22,240
And we'll also see a difference with a lot width, which is 40 feet compared to 60 feet.

1057
01:21:24,380 --> 01:21:30,480
For the neighborhood meeting for this site, as well as the public hearing, notice was sent to

1058
01:21:30,480 --> 01:21:33,040
property owners with a 800 feet of the property.

1059
01:21:34,340 --> 01:21:40,180
And this neighborhood meeting was held on June 6, 2018, and there were 20 nearby residents who attended.

1060
01:21:40,860 --> 01:21:47,460
There were questions and concerns expressed regarding the drainage in the area, specifically regarding a farm

1061
01:21:47,460 --> 01:21:52,700
pit pond that was filled in on the site back in the 90s, which will talk a little bit more about in just a minute.

1062
01:21:52,700 --> 01:21:59,480
We also heard concerns about traffic and road conditions of Louis Drive, setbacks proposed and

1063
01:21:59,480 --> 01:22:00,620
stream buffers.

1064
01:22:01,280 --> 01:22:05,280
And so to acknowledge a significant concerns that we've heard from citizens and residents,

1065
01:22:05,780 --> 01:22:09,500
we're going to spend a little bit of time talking about some of these two key issues that

1066
01:22:09,500 --> 01:22:12,960
we've heard first, drainage, and then traffic.

1067
01:22:14,080 --> 01:22:18,900
So I'm going to turn the presentation over to Matt Flynn, Stormwater Field Services Administrator

1068
01:22:18,900 --> 01:22:21,720
but with the water resources department to talk about drainage.

1069
01:22:23,700 --> 01:22:24,540
Good evening, Council.

1070
01:22:25,160 --> 01:22:31,380
So we understand there were some drainage concerns associated with the fill and the stream location on this property.

1071
01:22:32,080 --> 01:22:35,440
So we've done some research and want to share with you what we've learned thus far.

1072
01:22:38,150 --> 01:22:44,350
So in this picture, you'll see, in 1988, we have the stream shown in blue.

1073
01:22:44,950 --> 01:22:48,370
It's an old agricultural pond to the west.

1074
01:22:49,310 --> 01:22:51,690
The whole area was in Wake County at the time.

1075
01:22:52,670 --> 01:22:56,790
The stream location on the Louis property actually is in the same location it is today.

1076
01:22:59,200 --> 01:23:03,780
Fast forward to 2000, Brookstone subdivision is built out.

1077
01:23:04,240 --> 01:23:06,420
The stream on that property has been piped.

1078
01:23:06,540 --> 01:23:09,960
You can see the red lines represent the storm drain system.

1079
01:23:11,260 --> 01:23:14,140
You'll see on the Louis property that the pond is gone.

1080
01:23:14,140 --> 01:23:22,740
What we've learned is that pond was filled in a majority of the Louis property is filled in with excess dirt from the Brookstone subdivision.

1081
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:30,920
So we've got to remember though, stream buffer rules, environmental regulations as we know them today didn't exist in.

1082
01:23:31,280 --> 01:23:34,320
So the placement of that fill during that time frame was legal.

1083
01:23:35,700 --> 01:23:41,900
I've also placed the drainage areas for both lots to that channel.

1084
01:23:42,600 --> 01:23:47,180
You'll see that about 12 acres of drainage goes to that channel from the Brooks Stone subdivision.

1085
01:23:47,680 --> 01:23:51,120
In fact, the storm drain system acts as the headwaters for that.

1086
01:23:51,320 --> 01:23:53,980
About four acres from the Louis property goes to that.

1087
01:23:54,620 --> 01:23:58,240
So there's an opportunity to hear if and when that project develops,

1088
01:23:58,240 --> 01:24:04,180
under Kerry's rules to capture the four acres from Lui and bypass it from that channel.

1089
01:24:05,420 --> 01:24:08,840
When you do stormwater management, you're going to place the stormwater collection system

1090
01:24:08,840 --> 01:24:09,700
at the lowest point.

1091
01:24:09,840 --> 01:24:13,180
In this case, it's going to be on the southern portion of the property, and the developers

1092
01:24:13,180 --> 01:24:17,700
really are going to have to speak to this because we're speculating, but it's a realistic scenario

1093
01:24:17,700 --> 01:24:21,840
that they'll be able to capture and treat all of that on the southern portion which would

1094
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:27,340
discharge south of that channel, effectively cutting off those four acres of drainage, which

1095
01:24:27,340 --> 01:24:33,080
is substantial. It's about 25% of the drainage area here. So in that case, every single storm event

1096
01:24:33,080 --> 01:24:38,680
would be mitigated going forward. So from a drainage perspective anyway, there's an opportunity

1097
01:24:38,680 --> 01:24:43,560
to really improve the situation from what it is now. So I'll be available to answer any questions,

1098
01:24:44,260 --> 01:24:48,200
but thank you for your time. I'll turn it back over to Katie now. Thank you.

1099
01:24:50,560 --> 01:24:51,520
Next we'll address

1100
01:24:51,520 --> 01:24:52,320
transportation.

1101
01:24:55,190 --> 01:24:59,050
So looking at the town's transportation plan, Louis Drive is a collector street.

1102
01:24:59,050 --> 01:25:05,470
The staff is for concerns regarding maintenance of Louie Drive specifically to the west of this site.

1103
01:25:06,350 --> 01:25:10,430
The town maintains Louie Drive within the Brookstone neighborhood and in front of the site.

1104
01:25:10,690 --> 01:25:17,630
However, NCDOT maintains a portion of Louie Drive as to the west of this site on to Highway 55.

1105
01:25:17,750 --> 01:25:19,730
This is approximately 600 feet.

1106
01:25:20,330 --> 01:25:25,030
So to understand the history of this, we need to look at the area back before Brookstone was built.

1107
01:25:25,030 --> 01:25:32,050
This is Louis Drive in the 1980s, the road provided access to just a few rural lots, and

1108
01:25:32,050 --> 01:25:35,710
as you can see, there's a different alignment with Louis and NC55.

1109
01:25:36,610 --> 01:25:41,470
For our research, we understand that as a condition of approval for Brookstone, it required

1110
01:25:41,470 --> 01:25:46,410
a connection to Highway 55, and the developer at that time worked with property owners in

1111
01:25:46,410 --> 01:25:54,110
White County along this area here on Louis Drive to realign and widen Louis to make the

1112
01:25:54,110 --> 01:25:55,570
section to Highway 55.

1113
01:25:56,850 --> 01:25:58,830
And so this is what the site looks like today.

1114
01:25:58,910 --> 01:26:01,270
This picture is taken in front of the subject site.

1115
01:26:01,670 --> 01:26:07,090
It's looking west towards Highway 55, right at Johnson, Joseph Pong Lane.

1116
01:26:07,490 --> 01:26:13,010
You can see the curve gutter inside walk, drop stop, where Brookstone ends on both sides.

1117
01:26:15,010 --> 01:26:20,250
And the connection out to Highway 55 is just the two lane road without curve gutter

1118
01:26:20,250 --> 01:26:20,870
or sidewalk.

1119
01:26:21,570 --> 01:26:27,030
This picture is taken from 55 looking back east towards the Brookstone neighborhood.

1120
01:26:28,170 --> 01:26:37,670
Now, Brookstone homeowners association owns and maintains two 40-foot strips of land for landscaping on either side which you can see from this picture here.

1121
01:26:39,470 --> 01:26:45,990
So, this portion of Louis Drive, again, which is approximately 600 feet, has been outside of Kerry's jurisdiction within Wake County.

1122
01:26:45,990 --> 01:26:52,010
With recent developments, however, in annexations of some of the remaining properties, there

1123
01:26:52,010 --> 01:26:55,750
will be potential for road improvements along this section of the road moving forward.

1124
01:26:57,490 --> 01:27:03,530
We also look at transit opportunities, and there is existing, our go-triangle transit route

1125
01:27:03,530 --> 01:27:04,550
on NC55.

1126
01:27:06,450 --> 01:27:08,270
So this concludes the staff's presentation.

1127
01:27:08,670 --> 01:27:13,170
The applicant is here to share a comment, following the public hearing staff will be available

1128
01:27:13,170 --> 01:27:13,770
for questions.

1129
01:27:13,970 --> 01:27:14,410
Thank you.

1130
01:27:14,410 --> 01:27:18,130
Thank you, Ms. Triad, and I invite the applicant for their remarks at this time.

1131
01:27:31,530 --> 01:27:34,670
Mr. Mayor, members of the Council, my name is Barbara Todd.

1132
01:27:34,930 --> 01:27:39,190
I'm a landscape architect and land planner, and I'm representing applicant.

1133
01:27:41,670 --> 01:27:54,070
This request is for 8,000 square foot locks, which is the exact lot size of the lots of adjacent to us on the east on Millibre Court.

1134
01:27:54,070 --> 01:27:56,530
those are also 8,000 square feet.

1135
01:27:57,250 --> 01:28:03,950
We were requesting the TRCU zoning in order to change the side

1136
01:28:03,950 --> 01:28:07,850
setbacks so that we will have slightly more flexibility

1137
01:28:09,250 --> 01:28:10,890
on the side yards.

1138
01:28:11,730 --> 01:28:16,110
That's the only reason that we need the TRCU zoning

1139
01:28:16,110 --> 01:28:18,670
is so that we can adjust and have the flexibility

1140
01:28:19,430 --> 01:28:21,170
about the side setbacks.

1141
01:28:22,010 --> 01:28:30,570
The rear yards will be required to provide a 10-foot type B buffer separating the lots on the

1142
01:28:30,570 --> 01:28:35,850
Louis property from those on Millie Brook Court, and that 10-foot type B buffer will be included

1143
01:28:35,850 --> 01:28:37,130
in the lot area.

1144
01:28:38,470 --> 01:28:44,530
At the neighborhood meeting, we certainly heard a lot of concern from the neighbors about

1145
01:28:44,530 --> 01:28:45,170
the drainage.

1146
01:28:45,170 --> 01:28:51,770
And apparently it's been ongoing problem as Matt Flynn described and Katie described.

1147
01:28:53,410 --> 01:29:02,950
And I want you to know and the staff to know that we are ready to work really closely with the staff as development plans are drawn up.

1148
01:29:03,590 --> 01:29:14,810
So that we can do what we need to do on our property to try to mitigate whatever we can on our property in the impact

1149
01:29:14,810 --> 01:29:17,710
that the storm water might have.

1150
01:29:20,990 --> 01:29:26,110
We haven't, we don't have a certain plan yet.

1151
01:29:26,450 --> 01:29:31,050
We don't have a survey of the stream buffer yet, although we are pretty sure where it is.

1152
01:29:32,010 --> 01:29:39,250
So that as we go along in the development process, we will be much more able to understand

1153
01:29:39,250 --> 01:29:48,590
the impact of the screen buffer and the drainage patterns on the plans that we will show to the staff for approval.

1154
01:29:51,150 --> 01:29:53,810
I will be glad to answer any of your questions.

1155
01:29:55,370 --> 01:29:56,270
Thank you very much.

1156
01:29:56,650 --> 01:29:57,110
Thanks Matt.

1157
01:29:57,490 --> 01:29:57,810
Thanks, Katie.

1158
01:29:58,750 --> 01:29:59,970
Now's the time for the...

1159
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:08,060
Public hearing for annexation 18810 and rezoning 18RZ10. And I would invite our first speaker forward.

1160
01:30:19,910 --> 01:30:25,550
Good evening, Mr. Mayor and members of Council. My name is Jason Shees. I live at 112 Millibruck Court.

1161
01:30:26,410 --> 01:30:31,330
I appreciate the staff's report and the feedback from the applicant.

1162
01:30:32,490 --> 01:30:40,590
While I do have a couple of concerns about the development of this particular property as it relates to the side, setbacks and the rear sit back.

1163
01:30:40,590 --> 01:30:46,970
I'm happy that the lot size would be the exact same as the houses to the east on Millibrook.

1164
01:30:47,130 --> 01:30:50,770
My preference is that the side and rear-step acts but also be the same.

1165
01:30:51,790 --> 01:30:56,310
Also I do have some concerns about the traffic, especially in the short term.

1166
01:30:56,510 --> 01:31:00,370
That particular curve that staff showed you can be rather dangerous.

1167
01:31:01,050 --> 01:31:05,130
There's a lot of cut-through traffic that goes through a brick stone for people accessing

1168
01:31:05,130 --> 01:31:11,290
Highway 55 and Turner Creek Elementary and I know quite a few of my neighbors have been pretty

1169
01:31:11,290 --> 01:31:16,370
much runoff of that road because of people cutting the corner there. So I'm concerned in

1170
01:31:16,370 --> 01:31:22,030
the short term about the construction equipment that would be along that area. There is an

1171
01:31:22,030 --> 01:31:27,510
elementary school bus route that stops right there. So that construction equipment would make

1172
01:31:27,510 --> 01:31:34,730
those problems worth especially during peak use. And also potentially further damage the road

1173
01:31:34,730 --> 01:31:36,790
there, where it's maintained by NCDOT.

1174
01:31:37,570 --> 01:31:40,630
However, the long-term benefits, especially

1175
01:31:40,630 --> 01:31:44,410
if Brooks don't annexes those 40 foot strips on either side,

1176
01:31:44,630 --> 01:31:46,470
could ultimately, the long-term improve that road.

1177
01:31:46,990 --> 01:31:48,930
My biggest concern I don't want to speak about tonight

1178
01:31:48,930 --> 01:31:52,230
is really that strain and the drainage and the flooding

1179
01:31:52,230 --> 01:31:52,850
that occurs.

1180
01:31:53,350 --> 01:31:55,990
That strain really starts at the rear yard

1181
01:31:55,990 --> 01:32:00,550
between 106 and 108 millibrook and heads to the south.

1182
01:32:00,930 --> 01:32:03,850
When it rains, the backyards of all those houses

1183
01:32:03,850 --> 01:32:06,630
between 100 and 106 they flood.

1184
01:32:07,730 --> 01:32:13,030
Many days after a rain event, you can see water ponding on the sidewalk along Louie Drive

1185
01:32:13,030 --> 01:32:13,930
there at the property.

1186
01:32:14,970 --> 01:32:19,490
So although the four acres of mitigation that would occur would help improve the situation,

1187
01:32:20,050 --> 01:32:21,290
I don't know that it fixes it.

1188
01:32:21,930 --> 01:32:26,350
So what I would like to see occur is although I understand that the stream buffer restrictions

1189
01:32:26,350 --> 01:32:31,010
would apply, I would like to see the stream restored to its original condition.

1190
01:32:31,010 --> 01:32:35,930
My neighbor to the south has been an original homeowner out there since that development.

1191
01:32:36,270 --> 01:32:40,650
He has pictures of when they moved that land fill over and filled in that pond.

1192
01:32:41,290 --> 01:32:45,330
So when they did that, they built up the west side of that bank.

1193
01:32:45,890 --> 01:32:48,730
So it's much higher on the west side than it is on the east side.

1194
01:32:49,130 --> 01:32:52,970
So when it rains, the overflow from the stream really only overflows to the east.

1195
01:32:53,250 --> 01:32:54,970
It can't overflow to the west.

1196
01:32:54,970 --> 01:33:02,050
So, I would like to see that stream restored the stream bed restored to its original condition,

1197
01:33:02,330 --> 01:33:06,210
so that on the west side it can overflow the same as it does on the east.

1198
01:33:06,770 --> 01:33:13,530
That will have a lasting impact in addition to the four acres of drainage to the overall flooding

1199
01:33:13,530 --> 01:33:16,310
and floodplain in that particular area.

1200
01:33:16,830 --> 01:33:22,570
The buildup on the west side also has a loud foliage growth and that further restricts that drainage.

1201
01:33:22,570 --> 01:33:25,530
That is the biggest concern that I have.

1202
01:33:26,210 --> 01:33:36,510
If the developer would consider adding a condition that would restore the streambed to its original condition, then I would be satisfied.

1203
01:33:37,570 --> 01:33:40,250
From a sentimental standpoint, I love the Louis property.

1204
01:33:40,410 --> 01:33:42,750
That's a very entryway to the subdivision.

1205
01:33:43,850 --> 01:33:45,590
My kids walked a school there.

1206
01:33:45,930 --> 01:33:51,750
Mrs. Louis sat out on her front porch over kids, played soccer and football in the field.

1207
01:33:51,750 --> 01:33:57,670
I would love to see it stay exactly as it is forever, but that's not realistic and I was very

1208
01:33:57,670 --> 01:34:00,470
unfortunate to see Mrs. Louis pass away a few years ago.

1209
01:34:00,770 --> 01:34:04,830
The applicant should have a fair opportunity to then develop that land and I think the

1210
01:34:04,830 --> 01:34:08,650
way that they're proposing, it would be in keeping with the rest of the neighborhood.

1211
01:34:09,190 --> 01:34:13,510
If they can deal with the drainage and the flooding from that stream, then I would be satisfied

1212
01:34:13,510 --> 01:34:19,010
as a homeowner that butts up adjacent to that proposed property, thank you very much for your

1213
01:34:19,010 --> 01:34:19,210
time.

1214
01:34:19,670 --> 01:34:20,310
Thank you.

1215
01:34:20,310 --> 01:34:21,290
Next speaker.

1216
01:34:30,850 --> 01:34:31,270
Hi, good evening.

1217
01:34:31,430 --> 01:34:32,710
My name is Lindsey Busfield.

1218
01:34:32,710 --> 01:34:40,070
I live at 102 Millie Brook Court and my property back directly up to the Louis property

1219
01:34:40,070 --> 01:34:41,530
that we're discussing this evening.

1220
01:34:42,370 --> 01:34:47,470
So the development of this property definitely has a significant impact on my property

1221
01:34:47,470 --> 01:34:52,010
in terms of the view, as well as just the quality of life there.

1222
01:34:52,710 --> 01:34:57,690
But echoing Jason's sentiments, we understand that it can't stay this way forever.

1223
01:34:57,690 --> 01:35:04,470
And we had had a great experience having the Louis property there, love the view that it offers,

1224
01:35:04,790 --> 01:35:10,110
loves, we love the flexibility that it offers in terms of kids being able to wander the neighborhood

1225
01:35:11,190 --> 01:35:16,270
with out massive amounts of traffic other than what we're already seeing on a day-to-day basis.

1226
01:35:16,890 --> 01:35:22,150
But we want to work together in the spirit of being neighbors.

1227
01:35:22,150 --> 01:35:28,910
And we have an understanding that it's realistic and that this property has to be developed some day.

1228
01:35:29,410 --> 01:35:35,870
And what is being proposed here could be a really great opportunity for our neighborhood if it's done right.

1229
01:35:37,550 --> 01:35:45,470
And I want to echo and thank Jason for standing up and going in depth into what we have discussed as a collective neighbors.

1230
01:35:45,470 --> 01:35:53,310
But I also wanted to speak on behalf of those who could not make it here tonight and make sure that they are represented as well

1231
01:35:53,310 --> 01:35:59,210
So Andy took also wanted to echo the buffer zone and run off

1232
01:36:00,950 --> 01:36:07,630
Issues that were brought up tonight as well as Amy Jaska House and we just wanted to show our collective

1233
01:36:09,190 --> 01:36:14,930
Support for this project so long as we are taking into serious consideration

1234
01:36:15,470 --> 01:36:22,530
the drainage issues, the traffic issues, the road conditions, and other issues that are arising

1235
01:36:22,530 --> 01:36:28,430
just because of the complex nature of where this property is, and how this property has been

1236
01:36:28,430 --> 01:36:34,110
treated in the past. And I think we have a great opportunity to rectify some mistakes that were made

1237
01:36:34,550 --> 01:36:40,590
through stream restoration and protecting of the buffer zones that we have in place.

1238
01:36:40,590 --> 01:36:45,330
My biggest concern being how close are these houses going to be to my backyard.

1239
01:36:45,410 --> 01:36:52,510
I have a great view right now, and I would like for that to be kept in place as much as possible within

1240
01:36:52,510 --> 01:36:52,970
reason.

1241
01:36:53,650 --> 01:36:56,730
So those are the things that I know that I have concerns over.

1242
01:36:56,730 --> 01:36:58,490
My husband has concerns over.

1243
01:36:58,890 --> 01:37:03,370
Neighbors on our street have concerns over, but also the things that are affecting our

1244
01:37:03,370 --> 01:37:07,550
neighborhood beyond those of us who back up directly to it.

1245
01:37:07,550 --> 01:37:13,610
So the opportunity to take care of the stream and restoring that would be a great benefit.

1246
01:37:13,850 --> 01:37:23,070
And I know that having a condition in this rezoning would greatly increase our neighborhood

1247
01:37:23,070 --> 01:37:23,690
support.

1248
01:37:24,050 --> 01:37:24,590
Thank you very much.

1249
01:37:24,890 --> 01:37:25,650
Thank you.

1250
01:37:25,990 --> 01:37:26,810
Next speaker.

1251
01:37:43,730 --> 01:37:44,710
Good evening, Mayor.

1252
01:37:45,710 --> 01:37:50,010
And all the comes council members, my name is Matthew Matterford.

1253
01:37:50,010 --> 01:37:57,610
I stay in 11.05 ever at field road, more as well, I have a property behind the proposed

1254
01:37:59,330 --> 01:38:05,970
Louis Drive. Even though the front of the property is valley would slain, because of the there is

1255
01:38:05,970 --> 01:38:13,730
a stream immediately after the road, we cannot go inside the property. So I have requested already the

1256
01:38:13,730 --> 01:38:22,710
So, can you make a road access road through the property to our property, there is a

1257
01:38:22,710 --> 01:38:23,430
they will consider.

1258
01:38:24,870 --> 01:38:32,630
So, and also I understand that the BMP they are going to make on the corner of the property.

1259
01:38:33,990 --> 01:38:39,630
So, that will because back of the property is a low line area, eventually there may be

1260
01:38:39,630 --> 01:38:40,350
a problem.

1261
01:38:40,350 --> 01:38:45,590
So I request that council to consider that also.

1262
01:38:45,730 --> 01:38:46,570
Thanks a lot.

1263
01:38:47,010 --> 01:38:47,830
Thank you.

1264
01:38:48,070 --> 01:38:48,930
Next speaker, please.

1265
01:38:49,830 --> 01:38:51,450
Anyone else for this public hearing?

1266
01:38:53,240 --> 01:38:55,040
If you know one, we'll close the public hearing.

1267
01:38:55,420 --> 01:38:58,300
And open it up to council members for questions or comments.

1268
01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:01,800
I would like to start the strike with a question of,

1269
01:39:02,960 --> 01:39:05,380
the citizens want the stream moved.

1270
01:39:06,280 --> 01:39:11,060
What kind of state restrictions, state federal restrictions prevent that or allow that?

1271
01:39:11,060 --> 01:39:14,460
Or is it allowed? I didn't hear moved restored.

1272
01:39:14,520 --> 01:39:16,680
Mr. Stor. I'm sorry.

1273
01:39:17,180 --> 01:39:21,780
I'd look to ask, um, one of our stormwater experts to come up and help us assist with that question.

1274
01:39:22,140 --> 01:39:22,980
Thank you.

1275
01:39:25,510 --> 01:39:28,210
Good evening, Eric Coles, environmental specialists with water resources.

1276
01:39:31,860 --> 01:39:39,220
Um, one of the solutions that we have tossed around, um, just in what is in the realm of possible,

1277
01:39:40,040 --> 01:39:43,780
is not to do anything with the stream, the stream has been there for a long time.

1278
01:39:43,780 --> 01:39:46,460
The bed of the stream has not been impacted.

1279
01:39:46,860 --> 01:39:56,700
What has happened is the buffer or the land next to the stream has been built up with the material from the adjacent subdivision.

1280
01:39:59,340 --> 01:40:08,860
And the Jordan-like buffer rules and our town ordinance does allow for removal of existing fill within the buffer.

1281
01:40:09,840 --> 01:40:16,800
It would require identifying the original ground surface through use of

1282
01:40:16,800 --> 01:40:22,620
borings and a sole scientist and then excavation down to that original surface and

1283
01:40:22,620 --> 01:40:28,140
then replanting of the buffer. That would only require, as long as we're not

1284
01:40:28,140 --> 01:40:33,400
affecting the stream channel, that would only require an authorization from the town.

1285
01:40:33,560 --> 01:40:35,300
That's the only permitting that would be necessary.

1286
01:40:35,300 --> 01:40:38,480
Great. And my follow-up question.

1287
01:40:39,000 --> 01:40:41,440
Are you going to ask a question about what it fixed?

1288
01:40:41,680 --> 01:40:43,180
That's exactly what I was going to ask.

1289
01:40:43,460 --> 01:40:44,600
It's a great question.

1290
01:40:45,660 --> 01:40:49,340
So my next question is, I don't have to have it tonight,

1291
01:40:49,660 --> 01:40:52,260
but I need to know if that's the best solution,

1292
01:40:53,140 --> 01:40:56,000
or if whatever's proposed is the best solution,

1293
01:40:56,500 --> 01:40:58,600
or a combination is the best solution.

1294
01:40:59,020 --> 01:41:02,040
What's the best solution to fix the drainage problem?

1295
01:41:02,160 --> 01:41:03,640
It's what I want to know.

1296
01:41:03,640 --> 01:41:07,860
because if that's not going to fix it, then I don't want to do it.

1297
01:41:08,680 --> 01:41:11,600
And of course, we can't ask the applicant to do it.

1298
01:41:11,620 --> 01:41:14,000
They have to volunteer to do it.

1299
01:41:14,000 --> 01:41:15,580
We can't ask them to do anything.

1300
01:41:16,080 --> 01:41:19,080
So just doing some quick math in my head while I was sitting there.

1301
01:41:19,200 --> 01:41:20,140
You're talking probably.

1302
01:41:20,760 --> 01:41:24,740
If we're averaging three and a half feet of depth for that,

1303
01:41:24,740 --> 01:41:25,920
with the 100 foot buffer,

1304
01:41:25,980 --> 01:41:30,000
you're talking about 7,000 cubic yards of dirt that would have to be hauling.

1305
01:41:30,000 --> 01:41:31,860
You probably trees and shrubs and everything.

1306
01:41:31,960 --> 01:41:32,300
Exactly.

1307
01:41:32,300 --> 01:41:39,160
So not only is the cost of hauling that off would be probably half a million dollars, right there.

1308
01:41:39,360 --> 01:41:42,620
Was it 70 bucks, a cubic yard, maybe?

1309
01:41:43,960 --> 01:41:48,340
So you're probably talking about half a million dollars right there, and then the replanting of the buffer.

1310
01:41:48,680 --> 01:41:50,200
So that's an expensive option.

1311
01:41:52,160 --> 01:41:59,680
So hopefully the applicant can look at the combination of mitigating it by bypassing the drainage area

1312
01:41:59,680 --> 01:42:06,880
in addition to maybe doing some of that, to try to be able to model it to show a significant improvement.

1313
01:42:07,680 --> 01:42:10,960
But that's something the applicant will have to do, that's in our court.

1314
01:42:11,140 --> 01:42:15,960
And whatever they propose, you will have data that can convince me one way or the other.

1315
01:42:16,080 --> 01:42:19,440
Well, hopefully they're going to have beautiful pictures for all of us to see.

1316
01:42:19,440 --> 01:42:21,500
These are general care about our data.

1317
01:42:22,380 --> 01:42:27,160
As far as a model showing free and post-conditions and all of those things.

1318
01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:29,400
So those would be very convincing, I think.

1319
01:42:29,400 --> 01:42:29,720
Okay.

1320
01:42:30,440 --> 01:42:34,980
Just to follow up the neighborhood to the east, you know, all of what used to be the

1321
01:42:34,980 --> 01:42:38,220
stream there has now been piped and tripled over.

1322
01:42:38,700 --> 01:42:38,760
Right.

1323
01:42:38,760 --> 01:42:40,740
How much is that contributed to this problem?

1324
01:42:42,800 --> 01:42:47,600
So the stream itself, the pipe itself is the headwaters for that channel.

1325
01:42:47,920 --> 01:42:50,000
That 12 acres is the headwaters.

1326
01:42:50,660 --> 01:42:57,300
So it was all, that stream was in the Brookstone subdivision prior to when it was a farm

1327
01:42:57,300 --> 01:42:58,000
and it was pipe.

1328
01:42:58,000 --> 01:43:02,640
So, the discharge would have increased just because the land use is increasing.

1329
01:43:02,900 --> 01:43:06,160
I remember, Brookstone was developed prior to any storm water rules.

1330
01:43:06,320 --> 01:43:09,440
That's why you don't see any storm water mitigation on that.

1331
01:43:10,200 --> 01:43:13,040
So, there would be an increase in discharge from that.

1332
01:43:13,040 --> 01:43:14,140
It's a 24 inch pipe.

1333
01:43:14,340 --> 01:43:17,060
So, we're not really talking about a huge drainage area here anyway.

1334
01:43:18,960 --> 01:43:20,640
But that would have an impact.

1335
01:43:20,760 --> 01:43:22,680
That would certainly increase the amount of discharge.

1336
01:43:23,620 --> 01:43:26,820
So, they had that subdivision been developed under today's rules and rags.

1337
01:43:26,820 --> 01:43:30,720
they would have been required to keep the stream, not build near it, and it would have

1338
01:43:30,720 --> 01:43:33,140
been less of a problem that is today.

1339
01:43:33,320 --> 01:43:37,600
Moving the stream today or piping the stream is not realistic from a mitigation standpoint.

1340
01:43:37,700 --> 01:43:38,200
That's correct.

1341
01:43:38,440 --> 01:43:41,580
So they would have been in the stream buffer anyway, wouldn't be allowing to deal those

1342
01:43:41,580 --> 01:43:41,760
sounds.

1343
01:43:42,200 --> 01:43:42,700
That's right.

1344
01:43:43,180 --> 01:43:50,580
So just to make sure that I'm on board, are you saying that the mitigation that would

1345
01:43:50,580 --> 01:43:56,420
be proposed, whether it's a stormwater, BMP, or whatever comes up, the options that come

1346
01:43:56,420 --> 01:43:59,020
are going to make it better for the Brookstone neighborhood.

1347
01:43:59,740 --> 01:44:03,540
Are these lots that are flooding already going to continue to flood?

1348
01:44:03,600 --> 01:44:04,460
Or does it not help them?

1349
01:44:04,460 --> 01:44:09,820
I'm making a very educated speculation here because I have anything to react to at this point.

1350
01:44:11,040 --> 01:44:14,260
The stormwater management system is going to be located at the lowest point.

1351
01:44:14,400 --> 01:44:15,560
It's all going to be gravity flow.

1352
01:44:15,740 --> 01:44:18,100
In this case, it's in the southern portion of the property.

1353
01:44:18,900 --> 01:44:21,500
So the discharge point is going to be below that channel.

1354
01:44:21,500 --> 01:44:27,380
So, that four acres that's currently going to the channel, in that case would be completely

1355
01:44:27,380 --> 01:44:27,960
cut off.

1356
01:44:28,740 --> 01:44:35,800
So, any storm event, 1, 10, 10 million is going to be reduced as a result of that because

1357
01:44:35,800 --> 01:44:43,860
the drainage area has gotten smaller and that's 25% of the drainage area, so that's something

1358
01:44:43,860 --> 01:44:49,980
they can model and convince Council with numbers if they choose to at that point or

1359
01:44:49,980 --> 01:44:57,980
combinations of the fill as we discussed here, but there's a lot of options to show there's a lot of opportunity here to show it and prove it.

1360
01:44:59,560 --> 01:44:59,960
Mr. Yer.

1361
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:03,360
How are you? You can walk the air from your house. I want to hear what you've got this.

1362
01:45:03,780 --> 01:45:08,420
Well, I think the discussion has been great on looking forward to that data that you're looking forward to.

1363
01:45:08,780 --> 01:45:29,040
We certainly want an improvement if possible to the tradition that we have today. It's just interesting we're talking about the

1364
01:45:29,040 --> 01:45:46,160
It's, it's a, it's a problem throughout the, throughout the neighborhood, it was built before we had those requirements but I'm very optimistic based on what you're saying was Flynn and very optimistic based on Mr. Todd's history here that we're going to try to come up with the best solutions possible.

1365
01:45:47,280 --> 01:46:16,140
Yeah, the clarifier, I just want to be, so if we've got two different levels on two different sides of the streambed, obviously, it's only overflowing onto the one side, and these backyards, so mitigating that reduces some percentage that's heading for the backyards, regardless of the cost I can't do that, you know, about the math, but that is part of something that is going to make less water running the backyards,

1366
01:46:16,140 --> 01:46:22,300
of Millie Brook Court, if it's leveled out on a certain storm events, you're exactly right.

1367
01:46:23,180 --> 01:46:23,220
Yes.

1368
01:46:23,220 --> 01:46:31,820
Okay. And then there was the comment about somebody with a different piece of property.

1369
01:46:32,140 --> 01:46:41,100
What is the connectivity requirement going to be if somebody's got property beside this?

1370
01:46:41,180 --> 01:46:43,280
Is this going to be connected somewhere?

1371
01:46:43,280 --> 01:47:01,360
So our ordinance says require connections to different properties, all sides, and of course there's going to be an evaluation of that at the time of development plan review, so we'll be able to learn more about that, but as it stands our ordinance does require connectivity.

1372
01:47:02,000 --> 01:47:13,260
So if you had a requirement to the south for connectivity, but that was the place for the BMP, and you couldn't drive through that, then would the BMP have to be located.

1373
01:47:13,280 --> 01:47:16,780
It's such that there would be some other connectivity.

1374
01:47:21,460 --> 01:47:24,400
Yeah, it's a green field site.

1375
01:47:24,560 --> 01:47:27,420
So they'll be able to manipulate the surface

1376
01:47:27,420 --> 01:47:29,580
to probably meet any of our requirements.

1377
01:47:30,020 --> 01:47:32,380
They'll be able to grade it out to meet connectivity,

1378
01:47:32,960 --> 01:47:34,560
put the stormwater collection system.

1379
01:47:34,820 --> 01:47:36,640
Stormwater collection system is going to be in this other

1380
01:47:36,640 --> 01:47:37,080
portion.

1381
01:47:37,760 --> 01:47:39,740
And where that goes is really going to be an exercise

1382
01:47:39,740 --> 01:47:40,300
in grading.

1383
01:47:40,880 --> 01:47:42,680
And that's, their engineers can have to get out there and do

1384
01:47:42,680 --> 01:47:44,140
survey and all that.

1385
01:47:44,140 --> 01:47:46,640
But yeah, at this point, there's really nothing

1386
01:47:47,220 --> 01:47:50,260
constraining the site that I can see from my perspective.

1387
01:47:50,640 --> 01:47:51,620
Thank you, Mr. Miller.

1388
01:47:51,620 --> 01:47:52,360
Any other questions?

1389
01:47:53,740 --> 01:47:57,460
Oh, only the comment is I'm, while I really like the site,

1390
01:47:57,720 --> 01:48:00,460
that the lot sizes are identical to what's adjacent to it

1391
01:48:00,460 --> 01:48:02,900
on the east, I'm not the biggest fan of a five foot

1392
01:48:02,900 --> 01:48:04,280
side yard setback.

1393
01:48:05,340 --> 01:48:08,100
On both sides, you got houses 10 feet apart from each other.

1394
01:48:08,500 --> 01:48:09,800
I just, you know, I'm pleased to be here.

1395
01:48:09,820 --> 01:48:12,480
That extra five feet, now we're 20 feet apart from each other.

1396
01:48:12,480 --> 01:48:18,540
just seems to be a little more in harmony with what's adjacent to it. Other than that,

1397
01:48:18,560 --> 01:48:22,480
I think the use is density, lots of sizes and everything else makes sense.

1398
01:48:24,680 --> 01:48:29,160
So I agree with you. I can glad that they have the same size that 8,000 square foot.

1399
01:48:29,660 --> 01:48:35,260
I will say that I'm not as inclined to like and I know your guys are surprised.

1400
01:48:35,260 --> 01:48:42,860
The side yard set back at five feet foot and the front rear yard set back at 20 feet without some sort of

1401
01:48:42,860 --> 01:48:45,880
I don't give a little bit give and take there

1402
01:48:45,880 --> 01:48:52,160
You know if you're going if you already heard from a developer perspective that people are really concerned about the storm water

1403
01:48:52,160 --> 01:48:59,560
Right, you know that then how about you know being able to mitigate a 25-year storm or 50 or storm if you want something from us

1404
01:48:59,560 --> 01:49:01,460
That we wouldn't normally provide

1405
01:49:01,460 --> 01:49:03,920
I think give a little something, right?

1406
01:49:04,040 --> 01:49:06,700
You want to five-foot, you know, a side-rear set back?

1407
01:49:07,220 --> 01:49:10,340
Make the stormwater, you know, manage a 25-year.

1408
01:49:10,640 --> 01:49:13,000
I'd like to see something offered.

1409
01:49:13,240 --> 01:49:14,540
That's better than what we have.

1410
01:49:15,560 --> 01:49:15,700
OK.

1411
01:49:16,060 --> 01:49:16,760
Any other comments?

1412
01:49:17,160 --> 01:49:17,340
Great.

1413
01:49:17,960 --> 01:49:20,840
This will go to our planning and zoning board

1414
01:49:20,840 --> 01:49:22,660
for their review and recommendation.

1415
01:49:23,360 --> 01:49:24,820
They'll get it in a month or two,

1416
01:49:24,840 --> 01:49:27,360
and we'll probably get it in two or three months, that's

1417
01:49:27,360 --> 01:49:27,780
a year earlier.

1418
01:49:28,420 --> 01:49:31,400
And at that point, we'll make a decision.

1419
01:49:31,780 --> 01:49:33,920
I would recommend everybody's stand-in ball.

1420
01:49:34,180 --> 01:49:36,100
And if you have questions, please ask them.

1421
01:49:36,440 --> 01:49:40,120
And we'll be glad to get you the answers to your questions.

1422
01:49:40,440 --> 01:49:43,660
Or if you just have concerns, please let us know what the concerns are.

1423
01:49:43,840 --> 01:49:47,240
We're trying to get input from all parties before we make a decision.

1424
01:49:47,640 --> 01:49:51,300
So thank you all for being here and participating in this public hearing.

1425
01:49:52,100 --> 01:49:54,960
All right, we'll move to our last public hearing.

1426
01:49:54,960 --> 01:49:59,180
It's 18-RZ-13 Indian Wells Road Resonning.

1427
01:49:59,180 --> 01:50:04,820
Principal planner Scott Rammage will introduce the item, and Council will not take action tonight,

1428
01:50:05,080 --> 01:50:12,920
but instead we're going to refer it to our planning and zoning board, who will return it to us with a recommendation of the future.

1429
01:50:13,460 --> 01:50:13,740
Mr. Rammage.

1430
01:50:14,140 --> 01:50:14,900
Good evening, Council.

1431
01:50:15,520 --> 01:50:20,840
For your consideration tonight is a Resonary request for 8.21 acres on Indian Wells Road.

1432
01:50:22,060 --> 01:50:24,800
The sites on the north side of Indian Wells Road

1433
01:50:24,800 --> 01:50:27,980
about a quarter mile west of NC-55 highway.

1434
01:50:29,640 --> 01:50:32,560
And the site is about 600 feet south of cross-point church

1435
01:50:32,560 --> 01:50:34,680
in the northwest Kerry YMCA.

1436
01:50:35,220 --> 01:50:38,320
It's also about 400 feet southeast of the future park

1437
01:50:38,320 --> 01:50:40,800
on carpenter fire station road that has

1438
01:50:40,800 --> 01:50:43,220
a frontage on carpenter fire station road.

1439
01:50:44,800 --> 01:50:47,380
The site is currently zone residential 40 district,

1440
01:50:47,380 --> 01:50:54,480
New subdivisions, West, and South of the site have been resumed in recent years to R-H-C-U and to TR-C-U.

1441
01:50:55,020 --> 01:51:01,120
The site is, does have adjacent R-40 zoning to the north and immediate east of the site owned by crosspoint church.

1442
01:51:03,360 --> 01:51:07,920
The applicant has proposed to reason on the site to transitional residential conditional use.

1443
01:51:08,600 --> 01:51:18,000
Now, if this location looks familiar to you, it's because last month you heard a resounding request for the adjacent site, the crosspoint church site immediately north and east of the site.

1444
01:51:19,890 --> 01:51:25,030
There is a single proposed zoning condition for the site, limiting the loud uses.

1445
01:51:25,670 --> 01:51:29,410
This is a list of most of the uses permitted by right in the TR district.

1446
01:51:30,950 --> 01:51:35,570
And from among all these uses, the applicant's proposed only loud detached dwellings in townhouses.

1447
01:51:36,690 --> 01:51:41,290
So in terms of maximum density and minimum lot size, the basic TR district standards would

1448
01:51:41,290 --> 01:51:41,650
govern.

1449
01:51:42,190 --> 01:51:47,610
So for a single family detached house in TR, the minimum lot size is 5,000 square feet, and

1450
01:51:47,610 --> 01:51:50,130
regardless of whether detached or town homes are built,

1451
01:51:50,410 --> 01:51:52,770
the maximum density would be six dwelling units per acre.

1452
01:51:55,010 --> 01:51:56,770
According to the Future Growth Framework map,

1453
01:51:57,010 --> 01:51:59,470
the site is part of an area designated as a mixed neighborhood.

1454
01:52:00,570 --> 01:52:02,970
The mixed neighborhood development category encompasses

1455
01:52:02,970 --> 01:52:04,690
and describes neighborhoods in housing,

1456
01:52:05,050 --> 01:52:06,910
located in the northwest part of Cary,

1457
01:52:08,010 --> 01:52:10,110
Cary's planning area within about two to three miles

1458
01:52:10,110 --> 01:52:11,390
of research trying a part.

1459
01:52:12,070 --> 01:52:14,570
Mix neighborhoods are intended to have a mix of housing types

1460
01:52:14,570 --> 01:52:17,030
and densities, including things like detached homes,

1461
01:52:17,030 --> 01:52:22,030
patio homes, town homes, and multi-family, so as to offer a wide range of housing options

1462
01:52:22,030 --> 01:52:24,290
within a reasonable and short distance of RTP.

1463
01:52:26,390 --> 01:52:29,010
You also saw a map like this last month with the other case.

1464
01:52:29,030 --> 01:52:32,230
This map shows all the mixed neighborhood areas surrounding RTP.

1465
01:52:33,030 --> 01:52:37,950
The town's GIS data indicates that existing development within this area currently consists

1466
01:52:37,950 --> 01:52:39,650
of about 9,000 dwellings.

1467
01:52:40,690 --> 01:52:45,610
Those 9,000 dwellings are currently broken out as about 52% single-family detached.

1468
01:52:45,610 --> 01:52:51,610
28% of them are town homes, and 19% are multi-family, so you can see there is an emerging

1469
01:52:51,610 --> 01:52:53,670
mix that's fairly intense in the area.

1470
01:52:55,010 --> 01:52:59,270
Staff is evaluated this case regarding conformance with applicable policies in the Imagine

1471
01:52:59,270 --> 01:53:00,690
Curie Community Plan.

1472
01:53:03,170 --> 01:53:07,830
Staff feels the proposal supports two key policies in the live chapter by potentially increasing

1473
01:53:07,830 --> 01:53:11,650
the mix of housing and the new neighborhoods developing in this part of Kerry, as well

1474
01:53:11,650 --> 01:53:12,530
as town wide.

1475
01:53:13,880 --> 01:53:20,680
Policy three in the lift chapter recommends the provision of a variety of housing options within newly developed neighborhoods.

1476
01:53:21,280 --> 01:53:28,620
So this map depicts the mix of housing currently in this Indian wells and the Kina Road neighborhood that's been emerging over the last number of years.

1477
01:53:29,180 --> 01:53:39,520
The maps taken from the interactive development map on the town's website, and as you can see there is quite a mix of detached homes and town homes that are emerging and developing in this area,

1478
01:53:39,960 --> 01:53:42,720
most of it all happening just within the last five to eight years.

1479
01:53:44,280 --> 01:53:55,160
The proposal also helps to support the plan's work policies concerned with providing ample housing options near major employment centers such as RTP in order to interact the workforce of tomorrow.

1480
01:53:57,800 --> 01:54:01,880
Lastly, in the shape and chapter-shaped policy, six deals with transitions.

1481
01:54:02,460 --> 01:54:12,540
The town's development ordinances will ensure the provision of a suitable transition by requiring context-appropriate perimeter buffers or landscape buffers to the adjacent sites.

1482
01:54:12,540 --> 01:54:18,500
For example, if townhomes were built on this site, the next to that adjacent Indian well subdivision,

1483
01:54:18,720 --> 01:54:21,000
there would be required a 40 foot type A buffer.

1484
01:54:23,510 --> 01:54:27,850
The town's GIS mapping does not indicate any stream buffers or floodplain on the site.

1485
01:54:30,550 --> 01:54:34,770
The Parks Recreation and Cultural Resources Master Plan identifies the proposed neighborhood,

1486
01:54:35,010 --> 01:54:41,090
park about 400 feet to the northwest, as well as a future extension of the Pantheor Creek Greenway corridor,

1487
01:54:41,090 --> 01:54:48,970
Just a couple hundred feet north of the site during development plan review pedestrian connections would be required and created to the greenway

1488
01:54:48,970 --> 01:54:51,890
So there'd be direct pedestrian connection to the park as well

1489
01:54:53,450 --> 01:54:57,390
Indian Wells Road is currently designated as a two-lane collector street

1490
01:54:57,390 --> 01:55:01,070
But only for the section from highway 55 to a keen a road

1491
01:55:01,070 --> 01:55:06,350
So about a third of the frontage is on a collector street the rest is simply has frontage on a local street

1492
01:55:07,950 --> 01:55:14,050
There is a Go Triangle transit route that serves Highway 55, again, it's about a quarter mile distant from the site.

1493
01:55:15,990 --> 01:55:20,650
The applicant conducted the required neighborhood meeting at Town Hall in June 6 and 5 neighbors attended.

1494
01:55:21,290 --> 01:55:28,110
Residents expressed concern about overall amount of development in the area, traffic on Waquina Road, and Indian Wells Road,

1495
01:55:28,570 --> 01:55:33,310
school impacts. They wanted to know more about the type of housing that might ultimately be built on the site,

1496
01:55:33,310 --> 01:55:39,210
especially the part of the site next to the R8 lots in the adjacent subdivision.

1497
01:55:40,110 --> 01:55:43,650
Notification of tonight's hearing was mailed to all properties with an 800 feet of the

1498
01:55:43,650 --> 01:55:45,310
site and the property was posted.

1499
01:55:46,710 --> 01:55:50,450
So that concludes Steph's presentation, I understand the applicants representative is here

1500
01:55:50,450 --> 01:55:52,830
tonight to offer remarks prior to opening the hearing.

1501
01:55:53,370 --> 01:55:56,450
Thank you, Mr. Ramon, Joe, and I invite the applicant forward for their remarks.

1502
01:56:12,350 --> 01:56:16,090
Good evening, Mr. Mayor, and the Council.

1503
01:56:16,650 --> 01:56:17,990
My name is Allison Pocott.

1504
01:56:18,030 --> 01:56:19,130
I'm a landscape architect.

1505
01:56:19,350 --> 01:56:22,730
And I'm representing this particular petition.

1506
01:56:23,830 --> 01:56:26,250
Really Scott did a wonderful job.

1507
01:56:26,290 --> 01:56:29,730
I'm really impressed considering that he's had some issues

1508
01:56:29,730 --> 01:56:32,550
in the last couple of weeks.

1509
01:56:33,090 --> 01:56:35,810
And he was able to come forward and get this.

1510
01:56:35,890 --> 01:56:38,970
I really just want to kind of reiterate some of the things

1511
01:56:38,970 --> 01:56:41,670
that he said, kind of let you know

1512
01:56:41,670 --> 01:56:44,830
these were some of our key points as well.

1513
01:56:46,090 --> 01:56:52,370
The intention of this site and they're still kind of debating this is that it either has single family or town home.

1514
01:56:52,650 --> 01:57:01,910
We've looked at both types of development and come up with preliminary plans in both cases.

1515
01:57:02,650 --> 01:57:06,290
And it's something that's still being studied at this point.

1516
01:57:07,810 --> 01:57:19,010
regardless both uses, whether it's single-family or town home, work within the context of the surrounding properties as Scott mentioned.

1517
01:57:20,330 --> 01:57:21,810
The site is kind of a transition.

1518
01:57:22,370 --> 01:57:26,710
You've got sort of intense commercial and highway to the east.

1519
01:57:26,750 --> 01:57:28,510
You've got single family to the west.

1520
01:57:28,510 --> 01:57:46,810
You have a property that is being currently under rezoning consideration to the north with the proposal of town homes and to the south you've got a mix of town home and single family residential so this is kind of right in there with the other uses surrounding it.

1521
01:57:46,810 --> 01:57:59,290
The site is within walking distance, potentially, once you get the connections built to the future town park of the Carpenter Fire Station Road.

1522
01:57:59,910 --> 01:58:05,630
It's with that walking distance of the greenway, and it's within walking distance of the YMCA.

1523
01:58:05,630 --> 01:58:17,930
It's also got some potential connections to RTP, it's within two miles of RTP and of some fairly substantial commercial developments.

1524
01:58:19,070 --> 01:58:32,230
To the end of trying to make these connections we've already been meeting with the people who are developing to the North and are going to be trying to align both roadway and pedestrian connections so that we can go through

1525
01:58:32,230 --> 01:58:38,650
to the site to the north and also connect to the green way when the green way comes through.

1526
01:58:39,850 --> 01:58:44,250
It will be as much as possible a coordinated effort when it all goes through.

1527
01:58:47,270 --> 01:59:01,310
Site is also within three miles of the assigned school for elementary and 1.2 miles for the middle school and it's less than a mile away from the assigned

1528
01:59:02,230 --> 01:59:12,690
So there's a lot of potential there in terms of being able to get to the schools that the people that might be purchasing this property would need.

1529
01:59:13,670 --> 01:59:25,390
In terms of the carry community plan, one of their directions says that you need to be able to connect to utilities and utilities are there and available and can easily be connected to for this site.

1530
01:59:25,390 --> 01:59:29,610
basically requesting the same zoning as the site that is

1531
01:59:29,610 --> 01:59:35,350
contiguous to the north, showing up as brown on that plan.

1532
01:59:36,230 --> 01:59:40,390
It's a TRCU application as well.

1533
01:59:40,630 --> 01:59:44,350
And you've heard that rezoning application last week.

1534
01:59:44,350 --> 01:59:45,930
Excuse me, last month.

1535
01:59:46,530 --> 01:59:50,990
And that was 18 REC-05.

1536
01:59:51,910 --> 01:59:59,690
Again, this design and rezoning application is in compliance with both the Carey Feature growth plans.

1537
02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:06,840
And also the carry community plan. The developer and I will be here if you have any additional questions.

1538
02:00:08,200 --> 02:00:16,000
Thank you. Now it's time for the public hearing. For 18 or 18, any wells, road, rezoning, and I want to invite our first speaker forward.

1539
02:00:17,360 --> 02:00:19,120
Anyone to speak at this public hearing?

1540
02:00:21,180 --> 02:00:25,380
Seeing no one will close public hearing, open it up for questions or comments from the council.

1541
02:00:29,100 --> 02:00:30,460
I'm sorry.

1542
02:00:32,480 --> 02:00:38,940
I appreciate that this community is in close proximity to the YMCA, but in looking at the

1543
02:00:38,940 --> 02:00:44,600
overall map of the area, one thing that concerns me is when you look to that subdivision,

1544
02:00:45,120 --> 02:00:49,940
this is immediately adjacent to where has Pamela Cobra, Bay, Drive,

1545
02:00:55,300 --> 02:00:56,300
and I can't really read that

1546
02:00:56,300 --> 02:00:59,580
meaningful recreation space embedded in that community.

1547
02:01:00,360 --> 02:01:03,900
And I didn't hear you say anything about what you're going to do in this site.

1548
02:01:04,800 --> 02:01:11,060
For meaningful recreation space, these homes are attracting a lot of families.

1549
02:01:11,380 --> 02:01:17,240
But even if you didn't have kids, you still want to have some place to recreate on sites.

1550
02:01:17,340 --> 02:01:20,260
You don't have to walk all the way over to the YMCA.

1551
02:01:20,260 --> 02:01:27,220
So, is there going to be some space and if so, what is it?

1552
02:01:27,220 --> 02:01:31,620
Well, both scenarios that we've looked at, single family, in the town home, have both

1553
02:01:31,620 --> 02:01:37,380
a community open space and some recreational space, and it's hard to give you an exact

1554
02:01:37,380 --> 02:01:39,260
amount because it's still in transition.

1555
02:01:41,400 --> 02:01:50,100
But they do both have some open space, they also have stormwater, which can kind of double

1556
02:01:50,100 --> 02:01:57,780
to some extent with the open space or at least extend a visual to that open space so that

1557
02:01:57,780 --> 02:02:03,800
not only do you have a more intense place but you can have some visual impact in the corner

1558
02:02:03,800 --> 02:02:09,620
and because of the lay of the land the lowest point is actually the northwest corner of

1559
02:02:09,620 --> 02:02:18,280
the site so it's kind of a long that Pantigo trail northern their northeast corner and it looks

1560
02:02:18,280 --> 02:02:27,500
So this is the property to the immediate north, we'll also have their SCM right there on the other side of that property line.

1561
02:02:27,620 --> 02:02:37,640
So you're going to have a lot of sort of shared visual and then within the property some more intense open space recreational areas.

1562
02:02:37,820 --> 02:02:46,480
What I would recommend is that you all consider putting conditions in that talk about the aesthetics of that storm water,

1563
02:02:46,480 --> 02:02:51,800
Because a lot of times what these groundwater devices end up being our kind of forgotten little

1564
02:02:51,800 --> 02:02:56,740
wet ponds that are kind of attracting mosquitoes and nobody wants to have their lot

1565
02:02:56,740 --> 02:03:00,120
right against it's like the last lot that sells in the community kind of thing.

1566
02:03:00,640 --> 02:03:05,720
So if you're saying that that's going to be an amenity that, you know, that view shed that's

1567
02:03:05,720 --> 02:03:11,120
going to enhance the community I recommend that you stipulate what those treatments are going

1568
02:03:11,120 --> 02:03:15,960
to be that's going to make it better than that and then same with your recreation space.

1569
02:03:15,960 --> 02:03:22,620
we have a lot of applicants who come in and give us a condition that talk about the elements

1570
02:03:22,620 --> 02:03:28,700
of that recreation space, you know, maybe the minimum square footage of it or something so

1571
02:03:28,700 --> 02:03:33,540
that we can understand, whether it's your client who develops it or someone else in the future

1572
02:03:33,540 --> 02:03:37,300
develops it, that we have a guarantee that there's going to be something pretty meaningful there

1573
02:03:37,300 --> 02:03:42,680
that makes it a community and not just a collection of houses. And I'll follow up. And you're asking

1574
02:03:42,680 --> 02:03:51,780
As conditions, that asking for condition, I'm just suggesting that you, we can't, you're asking for a condition, but what we have to do?

1575
02:03:51,780 --> 02:03:53,260
We could add at this point.

1576
02:03:54,280 --> 02:03:57,560
So if you don't do a condition, we have to assume the minimum.

1577
02:03:58,300 --> 02:04:01,620
So even though you're saying all these things, we have to ignore it.

1578
02:04:01,680 --> 02:04:03,060
And we don't want to do that.

1579
02:04:03,640 --> 02:04:09,060
So if you want to offer a condition, then we will certainly look at it.

1580
02:04:09,380 --> 02:04:11,100
Any other comment?

1581
02:04:11,800 --> 02:04:14,000
If you want, I can add to that a little bit.

1582
02:04:14,120 --> 02:04:16,260
If you're looking up, because the town does have an

1583
02:04:16,260 --> 02:04:18,380
Our development ordinance to cite design standards.

1584
02:04:18,900 --> 02:04:21,800
For a parcel of the size, there would be required a minimum

1585
02:04:21,800 --> 02:04:24,200
1200 square foot community gathering space.

1586
02:04:24,660 --> 02:04:27,120
That's the sum recent cases where there's been conditions where

1587
02:04:27,120 --> 02:04:30,200
People have been offering increases above that, but 1200s

1588
02:04:30,200 --> 02:04:30,760
The minimum.

1589
02:04:31,260 --> 02:04:33,400
Also, it's good to remember, this is in the Jordan Lake

1590
02:04:33,400 --> 02:04:36,800
Watershed overlay, which would impose a 70%

1591
02:04:36,800 --> 02:04:43,760
maximum-pervious limit if you have a BMP without a BMP goes down to 30%.

1592
02:04:43,760 --> 02:04:46,940
But so there'll be some limits from that as well.

1593
02:04:47,820 --> 02:04:50,600
Also, perimeter buffers, you know, the extent of those happen.

1594
02:04:50,640 --> 02:04:54,560
But in terms of a gathering area for the community, there would be at least a 12-hundred-foot

1595
02:04:54,560 --> 02:04:59,200
square-foot space for whatever, you know, gazebo, or whatever.

1596
02:04:59,240 --> 02:04:59,500
Right.

1597
02:04:59,900 --> 02:05:04,840
And just for clarification, because I'm probably one person who's dissatisfied with a minimum

1598
02:05:04,840 --> 02:05:10,320
standard. That's like 38 feet by 38 feet or something like that. I mean, it's a 1200

1599
02:05:10,320 --> 02:05:16,380
sense of omega, I guess that's so much. But it's 38 feet by 40. Yeah, it's smaller than this area

1600
02:05:16,380 --> 02:05:22,120
in here in this internal space. Yeah, I would be very happy if I knew that the people who

1601
02:05:22,120 --> 02:05:28,000
move their heads, some kind of meaningful place to concrete. So I kind of want to speak to

1602
02:05:28,000 --> 02:05:31,640
wet ponds, it's how they look today. I mean, we all think of wet ponds, like at the high

1603
02:05:31,640 --> 02:05:36,020
shopping center where we've got, you know, the Constantine wire around it and it's got, you know,

1604
02:05:36,180 --> 02:05:42,520
bottles and cans. Now they actually have a landscape area in the middle of them. We require

1605
02:05:42,520 --> 02:05:49,120
quarterly monthly annual inspections, so they're regulated pretty heavily. We've got 1200 BMPs in the

1606
02:05:49,120 --> 02:05:57,780
town and we've got a 99% compliance rate with those. To your point though, now aesthetically,

1607
02:05:58,000 --> 02:06:01,240
there's a little bit more flexibility. You can have fountains in them now. You used to not be

1608
02:06:01,240 --> 02:06:06,260
able to put thousands of them. So there's a little bit more flexibility now with making them look

1609
02:06:06,260 --> 02:06:11,920
aesthetically pleasing. So there's a landscape piece inside of it. Now that's that type of stuff.

1610
02:06:12,280 --> 02:06:16,740
But once again, that's going to be a community decision on how they want to maintain it. So

1611
02:06:16,740 --> 02:06:22,400
you're spot on with that. Okay. Thank you. Okay. This will go to our planning and zoning board for

1612
02:06:22,400 --> 02:06:26,700
their review and recommendation. We'll see you at a future date. Thank you, Mr. Energy. You're welcome.

1613
02:06:26,700 --> 02:06:29,180
We now move to discussion items.

1614
02:06:29,680 --> 02:06:47,580
Our first discussion item is for the lease agreement for Wake County Public Safety Radio Tower at Western Wake Regional Water Reclamation Facility, Water Resources Manager Jeff Ackens will present the staff report and Council May take action, Mr. Ackens.

1615
02:06:47,860 --> 02:06:48,620
Good evening, Council.

1616
02:06:50,090 --> 02:06:56,390
It has been 16 years since the town began its journey with Apex and Morris Hill to develop

1617
02:06:56,390 --> 02:07:01,810
a regional Western Wake County solution for wastewater services for our growing communities.

1618
02:07:02,830 --> 02:07:07,170
Some of you will remember that work and those forward-thinking decisions.

1619
02:07:08,230 --> 02:07:14,810
The Western Wake Water Reclamation Facility has been operating now for four years and it's

1620
02:07:14,810 --> 02:07:19,590
been a great investment that continues to pay dividends as a keystone in our commitment

1621
02:07:19,590 --> 02:07:23,230
to meet the needs of our citizens and support continued growth.

1622
02:07:25,450 --> 02:07:29,590
From the very beginning, the town understood it was critical the Western

1623
02:07:29,590 --> 02:07:34,090
Wake Facility be a good neighbor and it provide benefits to the community where it's located.

1624
02:07:36,170 --> 02:07:41,370
We reached out to the families living in New Hill, got to know them, listened to their concerns

1625
02:07:41,370 --> 02:07:44,390
about what they might lose when the Western Wake Facilities arrived.

1626
02:07:45,870 --> 02:07:50,490
To address their concerns and fears, we committed to minimize the impact of the Western

1627
02:07:50,490 --> 02:07:55,590
facility on the community, and to provide our neighbors with municipal water and sewer services.

1628
02:07:56,630 --> 02:08:03,050
We published a newsletter so our new neighbors could follow the construction progress and be introduced to the staff who would be operating the plant.

1629
02:08:04,210 --> 02:08:07,450
We invested in them funding new hills new community center.

1630
02:08:10,560 --> 02:08:13,900
The decisions that Council made over the past 16 years are paying off,

1631
02:08:15,000 --> 02:08:20,060
Constructing the Regional Water Activation Facility on that property and the way we focused

1632
02:08:20,060 --> 02:08:21,300
on long-term relationships.

1633
02:08:22,360 --> 02:08:29,140
Last week, we brought back Inge Kennedy of PBEQ, our outreach advisor from the Western

1634
02:08:29,140 --> 02:08:32,860
Wake Project, and we asked her to check in with our new Hill Neighbors.

1635
02:08:34,580 --> 02:08:39,520
Every resident she spoke with in those in-home conversations gave positive feedback about

1636
02:08:39,520 --> 02:08:40,020
the plant.

1637
02:08:40,020 --> 02:08:48,000
They told anger the plant is a good neighbor, and it kept its commitments that the town may prior to construction.

1638
02:08:49,260 --> 02:08:54,860
One resident said they almost forget the plant is there because they can't see, hear, or smell it.

1639
02:08:56,180 --> 02:08:59,300
We now have an opportunity for another return on our western-weight investment.

1640
02:09:00,240 --> 02:09:02,440
It promises to benefit people throughout weight, can we?

1641
02:09:02,440 --> 02:09:09,240
The counties identified an opportunity to enhance the public safety radio coverage in the

1642
02:09:09,240 --> 02:09:14,060
Southwest corner of the county by constructing a new radio tower at Western Lake.

1643
02:09:15,020 --> 02:09:20,720
Providing a site for this tower will improve radio coverage for police, fire, and

1644
02:09:20,720 --> 02:09:26,400
EMS throughout that part of the county and support our imaginary commitment to exemplary

1645
02:09:26,400 --> 02:09:28,180
and timely emergency services.

1646
02:09:29,740 --> 02:09:35,200
Staff from our utilities, IT, and a lot of resources departments worked with our regional partners

1647
02:09:35,200 --> 02:09:40,100
with Whitney and Apex to identify a location on site that's compatible with the plants

1648
02:09:40,100 --> 02:09:42,980
operations and its long-term development plan.

1649
02:09:45,580 --> 02:09:49,980
The site proposed for the radio tower shown in the lower left of this area of photo, away from

1650
02:09:49,980 --> 02:09:54,880
operations in an area that was cleared during construction but not needed for future expansion.

1651
02:09:54,880 --> 02:10:00,280
Due to the coverage area, the tower will be 400 feet tall, like the way county tower

1652
02:10:00,280 --> 02:10:01,820
is shown on the photo and the right.

1653
02:10:03,100 --> 02:10:06,820
The lattice height construction is similar to the town halls tower.

1654
02:10:07,740 --> 02:10:11,500
The tower at Western Way can expect to be visible off-site, although the tree buffers and

1655
02:10:11,500 --> 02:10:16,640
its location or the 700 feet from the nearest property line will help lessen the visual impact.

1656
02:10:19,180 --> 02:10:23,320
No opposition to the project was registered during the neighborhood meeting way county

1657
02:10:23,320 --> 02:10:28,660
held about proposed to our winning candidate met with our New Hill neighbors last week, she

1658
02:10:28,660 --> 02:10:33,220
asked specifically what they thought about this opportunity. She found that our neighbors

1659
02:10:33,220 --> 02:10:37,540
were aware of the project, they understood its public safety benefits, and they didn't

1660
02:10:37,540 --> 02:10:41,880
object to the tower. One neighbor expressed they were glad the site was being fully utilized

1661
02:10:41,880 --> 02:10:45,400
rather than constructing the tower at a new location in the community.

1662
02:10:47,890 --> 02:10:48,790
Because of our investments

1663
02:10:48,790 --> 02:10:54,390
at Western Wake, we're in a position to offer that benefit to the community. Tonight staff

1664
02:10:54,390 --> 02:10:57,690
request council approve a resolution for the lease agreement for the

1665
02:10:57,690 --> 02:11:02,090
Wakai public safety radio tower, Western Wak, regional water

1666
02:11:02,090 --> 02:11:05,270
reclamation facility, Wakai county and apex have already approved

1667
02:11:05,270 --> 02:11:07,750
the agreement. That concludes our presentation.

1668
02:11:08,390 --> 02:11:10,450
We'd like to take any questions you have.

1669
02:11:10,790 --> 02:11:13,590
Thank you Mr. Hattkins. I think you pretty much covered it all to me.

1670
02:11:13,810 --> 02:11:17,810
This is a no-brainer. It opened it up to questions or comments, but

1671
02:11:17,810 --> 02:11:19,850
probably for a motion. Yeah, motion to approve.

1672
02:11:19,890 --> 02:11:23,570
Wait, I have a quick quick question. Are we going to be allowing

1673
02:11:23,570 --> 02:11:27,730
any sub-leasing on the tower for any commercial

1674
02:11:27,730 --> 02:11:28,770
opportunities?

1675
02:11:29,650 --> 02:11:33,910
No, the county's radio tower for public safety

1676
02:11:33,910 --> 02:11:36,750
is limited to public safety purposes only.

1677
02:11:38,030 --> 02:11:42,630
The town and our co-owner of the Western Lake site,

1678
02:11:42,830 --> 02:11:44,890
apex can locate public safety radio equipment.

1679
02:11:45,170 --> 02:11:46,370
Can co-late locate it?

1680
02:11:46,410 --> 02:11:50,870
So we're on the very far west southwest and what about our neighbors

1681
02:11:50,870 --> 02:11:56,890
Right across the White County border, I'm sure they might be interested in its very close to the border.

1682
02:11:57,370 --> 02:11:58,070
Have they been approached?

1683
02:11:59,010 --> 02:11:59,870
To leverage that space?

1684
02:12:00,130 --> 02:12:03,510
I am not aware that the county approached them about that.

1685
02:12:03,830 --> 02:12:09,310
That would be an interesting regional opportunity to put the T.J. Council Government or one of the others,

1686
02:12:09,450 --> 02:12:11,070
because it's so close to the border.

1687
02:12:11,430 --> 02:12:13,050
Radio waves don't stop at the border.

1688
02:12:13,630 --> 02:12:15,090
It would be a great way to do that.

1689
02:12:15,690 --> 02:12:16,410
Mr. Smith.

1690
02:12:16,830 --> 02:12:18,030
Motion approved.

1691
02:12:18,890 --> 02:12:19,710
Motion on a second.

1692
02:12:19,710 --> 02:12:22,990
discussion. All in favor, please say aye.

1693
02:12:23,210 --> 02:12:24,350
I know what you're saying.

1694
02:12:24,430 --> 02:12:24,770
I know what you're saying.

1695
02:12:24,770 --> 02:12:25,970
I should carry as unanimous.

1696
02:12:26,030 --> 02:12:26,370
Thank you.

1697
02:12:26,770 --> 02:12:27,490
Thank you.

1698
02:12:27,490 --> 02:12:30,690
Now moved to our second discussion item 6.2.

1699
02:12:31,290 --> 02:12:33,210
It's the planning and zoning board.

1700
02:12:33,610 --> 02:12:34,890
Membership and duties.

1701
02:12:35,870 --> 02:12:38,570
Senior counter-turning. This clever will give a report.

1702
02:12:38,710 --> 02:12:40,650
And then we'll hear our planning boards recommendation.

1703
02:12:41,170 --> 02:12:43,110
And we may take action on this.

1704
02:12:43,110 --> 02:12:45,630
We may take action on this tonight.

1705
02:12:46,490 --> 02:12:48,210
Item requires just a simple majority.

1706
02:12:48,210 --> 02:12:48,990
It was closed.

1707
02:12:49,690 --> 02:12:50,190
Good evening, Council.

1708
02:12:50,410 --> 02:12:54,810
Before we tonight are amendments to the town code and land development ordinance related

1709
02:12:54,810 --> 02:12:55,950
to the planning and zoning board.

1710
02:12:56,550 --> 02:13:01,190
We started talking about this topic at your retreat in February and at a March work session

1711
02:13:01,190 --> 02:13:01,870
with the Board.

1712
02:13:02,570 --> 02:13:06,790
The impetus for the discussions were questions raised by the Board regarding their role in

1713
02:13:06,790 --> 02:13:11,670
line of the new Care Community Plan and its emphasis on policies rather than matte-based

1714
02:13:11,670 --> 02:13:12,530
classifications.

1715
02:13:13,530 --> 02:13:18,510
At the retreat, we discussed the distinct roles of staff, the board, and council in the

1716
02:13:18,510 --> 02:13:24,450
rezoning process. You asked staff to look at four areas. So the board focus on its role,

1717
02:13:24,690 --> 02:13:30,270
mandated by state law, to determine whether the rezoning and text amendments are consistent with the comprehensive plan.

1718
02:13:30,970 --> 02:13:36,450
Should the board continue to hold public hearings? What's the appropriate role of the EETJ member of the board?

1719
02:13:36,890 --> 02:13:42,150
And it's the current number of board members appropriate. We presented text amendments to you at a public hearing

1720
02:13:42,150 --> 02:13:45,610
in June, and the board has now reviewed these amendments as well.

1721
02:13:47,270 --> 02:13:48,750
Briefly, the amendments are as follows.

1722
02:13:49,670 --> 02:13:54,110
The board would determine only plan consistency and would not vote to recommend approval

1723
02:13:54,110 --> 02:13:57,030
or denial of rezoning or LDO amendment cases.

1724
02:13:57,190 --> 02:14:01,390
They would continue to recommend approval or denial of comprehensive plan amendments.

1725
02:14:02,570 --> 02:14:04,230
The board would not conduct public hearings.

1726
02:14:04,830 --> 02:14:08,630
Council would hold a second public hearing if an applicant submits newer change conditions

1727
02:14:08,630 --> 02:14:09,430
on a rezoning.

1728
02:14:09,430 --> 02:14:15,810
This amendment would also standardize the timeframes for submissions by applicants of new or changed conditions.

1729
02:14:17,230 --> 02:14:25,230
Third, the ETJ member would vote only on ETJ rezoning cases, but would continue to participate in all LDO and comprehensive plan amendment cases.

1730
02:14:26,230 --> 02:14:30,710
Finally, the board would be streamlined from nine to seven members effective with the new budget.

1731
02:14:31,950 --> 02:14:36,110
This time, I'll ask Mr. Evangelist to present the recommendation of the planning and zoning board.

1732
02:14:41,810 --> 02:14:44,190
I'd like to break them into two if I can.

1733
02:14:44,290 --> 02:14:48,670
The first would be the first two items planned consistency in public hearings.

1734
02:14:49,550 --> 02:14:51,190
We support both of those unanimously.

1735
02:14:52,650 --> 02:14:59,950
Not only do we support them, but we're really excited about implementing these in the

1736
02:15:00,000 --> 02:15:29,980
Just for a second or two, the clarity that comes from not only the community plan but streamlining this is really helpful, but you know, you know what we're supposed to be doing. We know what we're supposed to be doing. The clarity is really going to help all the folks who were sitting behind me earlier tonight. The folks who come up here and, and for, since as long as I've been on the board, stand there in petition of the planning and zoning board about things like their property values and my neighborhood character and, and they really honestly believe. I mean, we're sitting in those same seats.

1737
02:15:30,000 --> 02:15:34,280
and they think we're somewhat comparable, and we just can't sit there and go, well, I'm

1738
02:15:34,280 --> 02:15:38,920
sorry, but I'm just a group of citizens who are going to look at it as an individual

1739
02:15:38,920 --> 02:15:45,040
citizen, has it affects the community plan? They don't know that. Now, under this new

1740
02:15:45,040 --> 02:15:50,220
system, they will. They will speak to you. You're the accountable folks to them. You're

1741
02:15:50,220 --> 02:15:54,660
the folks empowered to decide whether it's in the public interest. And so I think the

1742
02:15:54,660 --> 02:15:58,720
clarity really is going to benefit the citizens who come here. That's why we're super excited

1743
02:15:58,720 --> 02:16:03,060
about getting that to go, and none of this would have been possible without the community

1744
02:16:03,060 --> 02:16:07,600
plan being so clean and so useful. So they all work hand in hand.

1745
02:16:09,420 --> 02:16:13,260
I'll ask if you have any questions on that before I go to the other two if that's okay.

1746
02:16:13,920 --> 02:16:18,460
Okay, keep going. That was the easy one.

1747
02:16:19,020 --> 02:16:23,880
Onto the ETJ members and the streamlining. I'll talk about streamlining for a second. We were

1748
02:16:23,880 --> 02:16:30,680
four to four on that, but we understand that we're one of the larger planning and zoning

1749
02:16:30,680 --> 02:16:37,680
boards around anyway, but the idea was one of the members had pointed out that if both

1750
02:16:37,680 --> 02:16:43,380
of these items three and four do work in tandem, then the effective voting block, the

1751
02:16:43,380 --> 02:16:48,420
voting membership of PNZ goes from nine to six. That's a one-third reduction on most cases.

1752
02:16:48,420 --> 02:16:49,440
So that's kind of drastic.

1753
02:16:49,800 --> 02:16:53,280
That was behind some of the folks who were opposed.

1754
02:16:53,520 --> 02:16:56,440
Other folks who were opposed said, well,

1755
02:16:56,900 --> 02:16:59,460
we've heard time and time again that it's not so much the vote,

1756
02:16:59,760 --> 02:17:02,700
but it's the comments, it's the thinking,

1757
02:17:03,540 --> 02:17:06,300
and you're just taking away some of that thinking

1758
02:17:06,860 --> 02:17:08,360
by going down to a smaller amount.

1759
02:17:08,520 --> 02:17:11,300
But we did acknowledge that we are one of the larger groups.

1760
02:17:12,640 --> 02:17:15,100
Someone said, and I'm not going to take credit for this,

1761
02:17:15,460 --> 02:17:17,160
that if we're going to go down to seven just

1762
02:17:17,160 --> 02:17:20,320
because the Council's at seven, then the Kerryteen Council

1763
02:17:20,320 --> 02:17:23,040
should go from several hundred down to seven as well,

1764
02:17:24,220 --> 02:17:26,040
but that was this one of the things.

1765
02:17:26,740 --> 02:17:28,600
Each E.J., that was the big sticky one.

1766
02:17:28,800 --> 02:17:31,840
You saw how we voted, we went down eight to nothing.

1767
02:17:32,560 --> 02:17:33,260
Here's the idea.

1768
02:17:35,330 --> 02:17:37,150
You've all said this, we've heard it over.

1769
02:17:37,870 --> 02:17:39,390
We are individual citizens.

1770
02:17:40,050 --> 02:17:42,170
We are not representing a constituency.

1771
02:17:43,030 --> 02:17:45,730
We are not advocates for the folks who come up here

1772
02:17:45,730 --> 02:17:46,590
and petition us.

1773
02:17:46,590 --> 02:17:50,970
We are individual citizens looking at something as an individual citizen.

1774
02:17:52,150 --> 02:17:56,830
Whether or not someone at the end of the row lives in an ETA or not.

1775
02:17:57,050 --> 02:18:02,990
Doesn't affect how I, as an individual citizen, will decide whether or not something is consistent with the carry community plan.

1776
02:18:03,350 --> 02:18:05,210
That is really where most of the folks were.

1777
02:18:05,810 --> 02:18:10,630
No one on the board, sways or convinces other people on the board.

1778
02:18:11,270 --> 02:18:13,110
No one on the board represents anyone.

1779
02:18:13,110 --> 02:18:20,510
So we thought if we are to operate as an individual citizen, we should be able to do so without

1780
02:18:21,390 --> 02:18:27,330
the cloud of the ETA person being different from everyone else because we never thought of them that way.

1781
02:18:27,530 --> 02:18:28,950
So that's why it went down.

1782
02:18:29,550 --> 02:18:34,970
It was more of a procedural operational thing than a philosophical thing.

1783
02:18:35,530 --> 02:18:37,690
So that's how we looked at it, more of an implementation.

1784
02:18:38,790 --> 02:18:40,470
And that's all I've got on that one.

1785
02:18:40,910 --> 02:18:41,950
Any questions on those two?

1786
02:18:43,510 --> 02:18:52,330
I would recommend that we hear you out and then we're going to take these one at a time and then we can ask questions of you or anybody else at that time.

1787
02:18:52,630 --> 02:18:54,450
That's probably a linear way to do it.

1788
02:18:54,670 --> 02:18:55,110
Works from that okay?

1789
02:18:55,750 --> 02:18:56,230
Yeah, that's fine.

1790
02:18:56,550 --> 02:18:56,950
That's fine.

1791
02:18:57,130 --> 02:18:57,870
Those are questions.

1792
02:18:58,970 --> 02:18:59,270
You can answer.

1793
02:19:00,550 --> 02:19:02,070
Well, in that concludes our presentation.

1794
02:19:02,430 --> 02:19:04,850
So we're eager to hear your thoughts and I'm ready to answer any questions.

1795
02:19:04,990 --> 02:19:07,410
So there's a chart that was in the stab report.

1796
02:19:07,510 --> 02:19:09,630
Do we have anything like that to look at?

1797
02:19:14,550 --> 02:19:16,750
What's charter your record changes right now?

1798
02:19:17,830 --> 02:19:21,790
But it had a breakdown of what we do, what's recommended.

1799
02:19:22,610 --> 02:19:23,650
Existing proposed.

1800
02:19:23,670 --> 02:19:24,150
Yeah.

1801
02:19:24,270 --> 02:19:24,870
That's the chart.

1802
02:19:24,870 --> 02:19:26,290
I don't have a slide at that.

1803
02:19:27,230 --> 02:19:27,390
Okay.

1804
02:19:27,390 --> 02:19:28,190
Bring it up.

1805
02:19:28,390 --> 02:19:28,790
It's a link.

1806
02:19:29,390 --> 02:19:31,910
Yeah, but nobody else can see it.

1807
02:19:32,430 --> 02:19:34,630
So what do you want to tackle first then?

1808
02:19:34,810 --> 02:19:36,010
Just let me know what that.

1809
02:19:36,050 --> 02:19:36,810
All right.

1810
02:19:37,490 --> 02:19:40,370
Board determines only plan consistency.

1811
02:19:40,830 --> 02:19:44,410
I don't give you my me first and y'all can jump all over me.

1812
02:19:44,870 --> 02:19:50,070
I want to, what is the biggest value to me as an individual citizen, I want to hear

1813
02:19:50,070 --> 02:19:53,870
what anything you have to say about it, I don't care if it matches the plan, not match

1814
02:19:53,870 --> 02:19:59,110
with the plan, I don't care if it helps your dog, I don't care, I just want to hear it.

1815
02:19:59,330 --> 02:20:00,050
That's the value.

1816
02:20:00,650 --> 02:20:06,170
Staff is going to give me their recommendation of what fits the plan or doesn't fit the

1817
02:20:06,170 --> 02:20:06,350
plan.

1818
02:20:06,350 --> 02:20:11,930
I want to know what the average every day citizen of course can't call you average because you know more than you ever citizens.

1819
02:20:12,910 --> 02:20:17,050
But what you think about this proposal, regardless of the plan,

1820
02:20:18,530 --> 02:20:24,110
you probably ought to make some comments to the plan that would help also in making my decision.

1821
02:20:24,710 --> 02:20:26,590
But that's how I process everything.

1822
02:20:26,790 --> 02:20:30,230
So I want to gather all that information, all the different perspectives,

1823
02:20:30,670 --> 02:20:33,410
and then I think I have enough information to make a decision.

1824
02:20:33,410 --> 02:20:38,250
decision. So that's kind of how I look at it. I'm sure my colleagues look at it differently.

1825
02:20:39,330 --> 02:20:46,330
I would like to hear the boards opinion on whether or not whatever case before them is consistent with the plan,

1826
02:20:47,110 --> 02:20:53,870
but using whatever they believe to be their reasoning to determine whether or not it's consistent with the plan.

1827
02:20:54,470 --> 02:21:00,110
It's consistent with the plan because it's not consistent with the plan because

1828
02:21:00,110 --> 02:21:06,430
And whatever those reasons might be, you know, whether they think it's, it doesn't fit

1829
02:21:06,430 --> 02:21:11,650
because they think the plans are wrong, because this use will generate too much traffic,

1830
02:21:11,810 --> 02:21:21,380
versus what they think the area should have, you know, just be in consistent or inconsistent.

1831
02:21:21,800 --> 02:21:27,920
I think the arguments that we make up here to approve or deny a certain project, ultimately

1832
02:21:27,920 --> 02:21:34,400
we're saying where is it consistent or not with our plans or our vision or I don't disagree

1833
02:21:34,400 --> 02:21:35,040
with you.

1834
02:21:35,040 --> 02:21:36,780
I just don't want to limit them.

1835
02:21:37,060 --> 02:21:38,340
I don't think you're limiting them.

1836
02:21:38,560 --> 02:21:40,440
I mean, I don't want them just talking about the plan.

1837
02:21:40,640 --> 02:21:42,600
I want them talking about anything you want to talk about.

1838
02:21:43,160 --> 02:21:44,360
So that's where I'm going to go.

1839
02:21:44,800 --> 02:21:46,180
Yeah, I get your point.

1840
02:21:46,920 --> 02:21:52,880
Yeah, by limiting them just to the plan, then the conceivably you could have an environment

1841
02:21:52,880 --> 02:21:59,260
where board members cannot speak freely to say something such as, well, I don't really,

1842
02:22:00,300 --> 02:22:04,720
you know, this area has always been rural, and I think this might just have the wrong

1843
02:22:04,720 --> 02:22:09,900
field to it. This is some of my say to them, well, go back to the plan. How does it comply

1844
02:22:09,900 --> 02:22:14,020
with the plan? You know, and the person feeling pinned in with what they're allowed to say?

1845
02:22:14,820 --> 02:22:18,960
So is that basically what you're saying and I understand that point, I think that's a fair

1846
02:22:18,960 --> 02:22:25,380
point. We want to hear, I'd like to hear the full perspective of why they think something

1847
02:22:25,380 --> 02:22:29,260
is a good fit or not a good fit, not just within the context of the plan.

1848
02:22:31,200 --> 02:22:32,160
Other thoughts?

1849
02:22:33,240 --> 02:22:39,240
Well, I'm really confused now, because I was listening to you and I was thinking, right

1850
02:22:39,240 --> 02:22:43,920
on, right on, I was thinking, that's good. And then I thought, you just said the same

1851
02:22:43,920 --> 02:22:44,260
thing.

1852
02:22:44,260 --> 02:22:48,440
I mean, I'm really, I think we are saying the same thing.

1853
02:22:48,560 --> 02:22:55,940
I really do, because I don't want somebody on the board that has, you know, has the knowledge

1854
02:22:55,940 --> 02:23:03,180
of how things operate, and if they are forced to say,

1855
02:23:05,200 --> 02:23:10,180
well, it meets the plan, but I don't

1856
02:23:10,180 --> 02:23:12,380
Like it, not like it for these reasons.

1857
02:23:13,280 --> 02:23:14,460
That's kind of what you're saying.

1858
02:23:14,500 --> 02:23:15,640
I think that's what you're saying.

1859
02:23:16,600 --> 02:23:19,840
I was really surprised at the enthusiasm

1860
02:23:19,840 --> 02:23:22,340
to stay with the carry community plant.

1861
02:23:22,860 --> 02:23:25,060
I kind of want some independent thinking there.

1862
02:23:27,800 --> 02:23:28,860
I think you're right.

1863
02:23:29,260 --> 02:23:31,560
I think maybe it's the devils and details

1864
02:23:31,560 --> 02:23:33,580
and it's getting people that have the ability

1865
02:23:33,580 --> 02:23:35,320
to think critical thinking, you know,

1866
02:23:35,640 --> 02:23:37,820
can look at things on a case by case basis.

1867
02:23:39,420 --> 02:23:46,020
I just don't want people to feel totally hemmed in on some model we created for that

1868
02:23:46,020 --> 02:23:52,540
next 20 years that says, or 40 years, that says, you know, well, it's not consistent

1869
02:23:52,540 --> 02:23:53,100
with the point.

1870
02:23:53,260 --> 02:23:59,980
I want them to be able to just spew out what they think is right or wrong with that.

1871
02:24:00,080 --> 02:24:00,500
Mayor.

1872
02:24:00,600 --> 02:24:01,640
I don't know if that makes any sense.

1873
02:24:02,580 --> 02:24:04,220
I kind of same what you're saying.

1874
02:24:04,640 --> 02:24:04,660
Yep.

1875
02:24:04,660 --> 02:24:06,720
I just want to interject a little bit if you don't mind.

1876
02:24:06,720 --> 02:24:11,520
So, by laws we talked about the retreat, the board has to give you a written determination

1877
02:24:11,520 --> 02:24:12,640
on plan consistency.

1878
02:24:13,500 --> 02:24:16,640
So that's under the statutes and so they have to do that job.

1879
02:24:17,360 --> 02:24:22,060
The way the amendment is written right now, they would have to do that written recommendation

1880
02:24:22,060 --> 02:24:24,520
to you but it doesn't limit what they talk about.

1881
02:24:25,160 --> 02:24:28,520
So there's nothing in here that would limit them and say they could only talk about the plan

1882
02:24:28,520 --> 02:24:32,320
and if there was another way you wanted to give them guidance either through their rules of

1883
02:24:32,320 --> 02:24:37,620
procedure or, you know, some other policy statement of council, there might be a way to do that

1884
02:24:37,620 --> 02:24:41,400
and make sure they understand that they can talk about whatever they want, if that's what

1885
02:24:41,400 --> 02:24:46,100
you're looking for. But the amendment is written simply just says, your vote, the thing

1886
02:24:46,100 --> 02:24:49,680
that you have to do is the written recommendation because that's what it's required by statute,

1887
02:24:49,800 --> 02:24:54,440
but it doesn't limit the discussion. So this title here, where says board statements only plan

1888
02:24:54,440 --> 02:24:59,620
that sounds, that's just miswritten vote. Well, no, that's, that's what the statute requires. They

1889
02:24:59,620 --> 02:25:00,900
have to determine playing consistent.

1890
02:25:00,900 --> 02:25:02,220
At least, that's the minimum.

1891
02:25:02,440 --> 02:25:02,840
That's the minimum.

1892
02:25:02,980 --> 02:25:04,600
But as they're doing that, Lincoln,

1893
02:25:04,760 --> 02:25:06,440
they can talk about whatever they want.

1894
02:25:06,620 --> 02:25:08,300
At the end of the day, they have to tell you whether they

1895
02:25:08,300 --> 02:25:09,820
think it's consistent with the plan or not.

1896
02:25:09,860 --> 02:25:12,240
They only vote on playing consistency.

1897
02:25:12,380 --> 02:25:14,280
They can talk about whatever they want to,

1898
02:25:14,300 --> 02:25:16,860
but they only make a written determination on playing

1899
02:25:16,860 --> 02:25:17,220
consistency.

1900
02:25:17,500 --> 02:25:18,240
Is that what we're saying?

1901
02:25:18,660 --> 02:25:20,440
Well, that's how the amendment is drafted.

1902
02:25:21,980 --> 02:25:26,340
Yeah, and that's, if I, as I have been,

1903
02:25:26,340 --> 02:25:28,740
a planning and zoning board member, and now sitting here,

1904
02:25:30,120 --> 02:25:34,500
I'm wondering, and maybe Mark, you can speak to this.

1905
02:25:34,680 --> 02:25:37,120
But the people who voted 8 to 0, yeah, I'm all for that.

1906
02:25:37,120 --> 02:25:40,660
I don't want to vote to recommend an approval or denial.

1907
02:25:41,040 --> 02:25:47,640
I only want to match it up with whether or not it meets this piece of paper that I got.

1908
02:25:48,460 --> 02:25:52,340
How did that conversation go down?

1909
02:25:52,780 --> 02:25:54,200
Like, why was it 8 to 0?

1910
02:25:54,220 --> 02:25:55,940
I would think that they would want a little bit more freedom.

1911
02:25:56,500 --> 02:25:56,620
But maybe.

1912
02:25:56,620 --> 02:26:01,900
There is quite a bit of freedom, in fact, in our last meeting just earlier this week.

1913
02:26:02,580 --> 02:26:13,240
We had a situation where someone said, I believe I concur with staff that this element of the plan and this element of the plan and this element of the plan have been met.

1914
02:26:13,660 --> 02:26:19,460
However, I concur also with staff that this one single solitary element of the plan has not.

1915
02:26:19,460 --> 02:26:23,580
And in my view on balance, that outweighs the other three,

1916
02:26:23,980 --> 02:26:25,420
therefore I find it inconsistent.

1917
02:26:26,380 --> 02:26:29,920
That in the confines of the Kerry community plan,

1918
02:26:30,300 --> 02:26:31,980
we were able to do, I think, as you suggested,

1919
02:26:32,040 --> 02:26:34,980
saying, I don't like this part, and it's heavy enough

1920
02:26:34,980 --> 02:26:36,780
that I can find it inconsistent.

1921
02:26:37,700 --> 02:26:41,780
Because what I think the enthusiasm came from

1922
02:26:41,780 --> 02:26:45,240
is we get wrapped around the axle on recommendation

1923
02:26:45,240 --> 02:26:48,880
for approval as it is reasonable and in the public interest.

1924
02:26:48,880 --> 02:26:53,900
And we are looking at a more confined space than you are.

1925
02:26:54,520 --> 02:26:56,640
And so we come out with a recommendation for approval

1926
02:26:56,640 --> 02:26:58,020
and you deny something.

1927
02:26:58,480 --> 02:27:01,040
And then suddenly the folks who do view us comparable

1928
02:27:01,040 --> 02:27:02,960
see a great clash.

1929
02:27:03,060 --> 02:27:06,880
Here, if we just stay in the confines of the community plan

1930
02:27:06,880 --> 02:27:09,180
with that latitude I talked about,

1931
02:27:09,520 --> 02:27:13,200
that doesn't put us at odds with any determination you would make

1932
02:27:13,200 --> 02:27:17,420
because we're dealing with two different parts of the same whole.

1933
02:27:17,420 --> 02:27:23,400
So having said that if there's not a vote for approval or denial, do things ever get to go on consent?

1934
02:27:24,120 --> 02:27:31,200
Because today they go on consent if it's a DeZero approval, would we never get a consent?

1935
02:27:31,860 --> 02:27:35,200
And to follow up on that, I can see you recording to me.

1936
02:27:35,500 --> 02:27:38,080
Some of them said this, some of them said this.

1937
02:27:38,320 --> 02:27:43,780
Okay, how many said that and how many said this so essentially we were getting to a vote?

1938
02:27:43,780 --> 02:27:44,940
You have to pull that, yeah.

1939
02:27:45,140 --> 02:27:46,640
Right, and we're going to vote on consistency.

1940
02:27:47,260 --> 02:27:51,840
The consent issue, so there are several procedural things we'll need to talk about once you've

1941
02:27:51,840 --> 02:27:55,580
decided what you want to do with this entire amendment, and that's one of them.

1942
02:27:56,020 --> 02:28:00,020
The board we can talk about it later, but the board also talked about perhaps not video

1943
02:28:00,020 --> 02:28:02,360
and having their meetings on television anymore.

1944
02:28:03,080 --> 02:28:08,140
So there are certain procedural things that you may want to change based off of what you

1945
02:28:08,140 --> 02:28:12,560
decide to do tonight, and so how the consent agenda process works could be one of those.

1946
02:28:12,560 --> 02:28:19,060
You could still say if they did it 8 to 0 or 9 to 0 vote on Plan Consistency, that could still go on the Consistency agenda.

1947
02:28:19,580 --> 02:28:20,960
So that's a huge answer for me.

1948
02:28:21,120 --> 02:28:21,720
How to do that.

1949
02:28:21,940 --> 02:28:28,420
But that would be an example of one that tells, it makes me not want to do this number one at all,

1950
02:28:28,580 --> 02:28:32,000
because you're not voting for an approval tonight.

1951
02:28:32,000 --> 02:28:34,680
You're voting only for whether or not it's consistency.

1952
02:28:35,420 --> 02:28:40,780
And I'm interested in their feelings about whether or not it's worthwhile or approval tonight.

1953
02:28:40,800 --> 02:28:41,860
It might be consistent.

1954
02:28:41,860 --> 02:28:48,000
But they might live right next to it and see some things that, you know, the average person might not see.

1955
02:28:48,340 --> 02:28:52,060
Hey, you know what, I don't like, I don't know, let's, I don't want to pick one.

1956
02:28:52,440 --> 02:28:57,700
I could just say, like, for example, people come and say, I live near this and I can tell you right now.

1957
02:28:57,900 --> 02:29:00,360
There's no way that you can make a left turn out of this community.

1958
02:29:00,900 --> 02:29:08,160
And if this, if you add an additional 100 units, it might be consistent, but it might be consistent, but it's not a good fit.

1959
02:29:09,540 --> 02:29:17,640
And it would be wrong for us to get something on consent agenda just because it's consistent with the plan, which is very open-ended.

1960
02:29:18,300 --> 02:29:19,880
Very, it's a very broad plan.

1961
02:29:20,040 --> 02:29:21,840
You can pretty much recognize my game in consistent with the plan.

1962
02:29:23,340 --> 02:29:34,840
And to be also honest, but the other reason I asked about the numbers and whether or not going consent or not, is I don't like the idea of making a decision procedurally.

1963
02:29:34,900 --> 02:29:37,820
What we're going to do about consent after we decide this.

1964
02:29:37,820 --> 02:29:43,600
I'd like to know all of the potential fallout from making this one decision, right?

1965
02:29:43,620 --> 02:29:52,560
We've been operating that if it's approved unanimously, it goes on consent and we can always pull it off and I get that.

1966
02:29:53,420 --> 02:29:58,840
But that approval of denial is valuable enough to know, to get the gut reaction of the planning and zone.

1967
02:29:59,100 --> 02:29:59,980
I hate to-

1968
02:30:00,000 --> 02:30:03,780
Consider these separately, when I think they should be tied.

1969
02:30:04,480 --> 02:30:08,180
I've always heard everybody talk about that we don't necessarily look at what the vote is.

1970
02:30:08,320 --> 02:30:11,360
We look at the comments of the members themselves.

1971
02:30:11,360 --> 02:30:12,240
I think we could vote.

1972
02:30:15,100 --> 02:30:20,200
Well, I've heard plenty of times that we don't necessarily look at the vote as much as we look

1973
02:30:20,200 --> 02:30:22,180
at the comments of the members themselves.

1974
02:30:22,820 --> 02:30:27,600
And if the only thing that the board is required to do by law is vote on whether or not

1975
02:30:27,600 --> 02:30:34,740
consistent with the plan. That's ultimately what their board, the decision, or their vote is for, right?

1976
02:30:35,620 --> 02:30:44,940
Yes. So I don't know how this really changes that and or limits their comments or

1977
02:30:44,940 --> 02:30:57,580
thoughts or opinions that we want to encourage and get. I'm worried it's just going to

1978
02:30:57,580 --> 02:31:04,340
I have the feeling you're going to talk a little bit if we let that go through, talk a little bit more than just playing consistency.

1979
02:31:04,620 --> 02:31:06,800
I have the feeling that's going to happen.

1980
02:31:07,520 --> 02:31:18,280
But it's not going to be a sea change, but I still think listening to the discussion at the planning and zoning board meeting about this,

1981
02:31:18,280 --> 02:31:26,700
there was a feeling that we're going to be, we can reduce our commons, you know, our commons.

1982
02:31:28,280 --> 02:31:30,600
The planning is only for members, what would you suggest?

1983
02:31:30,720 --> 02:31:33,820
Right. And I just worry that that's going to happen.

1984
02:31:34,540 --> 02:31:40,480
The board members are not going to be as free to come in six to the commons, and the advice is

1985
02:31:40,480 --> 02:31:45,160
I think we're all saying are very important to us. It's a minimum requirement that you vote on

1986
02:31:45,160 --> 02:31:50,300
play in consistency and I think that's good. The word only is a little stumbling block

1987
02:31:50,300 --> 02:31:58,460
for me and the way that number one is free. Yeah, that's like that word in there. I just worry

1988
02:31:58,460 --> 02:32:03,860
about constrained you. Now you can get off TV and you're going to conference rooms the way

1989
02:32:03,860 --> 02:32:08,100
we used to do it when I was when I started on playing the Zoning Board. What was TV? I never

1990
02:32:08,100 --> 02:32:12,860
wanted to be on TV. So what do we take only out? What happens is to do it? But only is not

1991
02:32:12,860 --> 02:32:18,220
actually in the LDO. So only it's just how I put it on the slide. So I apologize if my wording

1992
02:32:18,220 --> 02:32:24,180
on the slide is causing problems. I don't think the word only is actually I'm looking at

1993
02:32:24,180 --> 02:32:30,000
the text and the word only is not in there. Okay. So I would say one thing that could address

1994
02:32:30,000 --> 02:32:40,100
our concern is if you have a total support for consistency, it doesn't mean that goes on consent.

1995
02:32:40,100 --> 02:32:43,460
I don't think we should bring anything automatically on a consent from the planning and zoning board,

1996
02:32:44,600 --> 02:32:53,260
because that would mask the fact that there's still confirmation about it.

1997
02:32:53,480 --> 02:32:59,040
And it may be not so much for us, because we're looking at the reports, but if you were a stakeholder

1998
02:32:59,960 --> 02:33:08,440
and you saw that the planning and zoning board voted unanimously for consistency, and then the council of, like,

1999
02:33:08,440 --> 02:33:10,320
It doesn't even, you know, it doesn't even

2000
02:33:10,320 --> 02:33:12,600
drive with what we're picturing here for this area.

2001
02:33:13,040 --> 02:33:15,420
You would kind of feel like, I just kind of got

2002
02:33:15,420 --> 02:33:19,080
to do it here, you know, but that has happened.

2003
02:33:19,140 --> 02:33:22,920
But that's what they're doing now and that's what they're

2004
02:33:22,920 --> 02:33:25,900
cast with is determining whether or not it's consistent

2005
02:33:25,900 --> 02:33:29,480
with our plans or all applicable plans and all that.

2006
02:33:29,500 --> 02:33:30,240
A little bit different.

2007
02:33:30,460 --> 02:33:33,280
There's a little nuance there because what's happening now is

2008
02:33:33,280 --> 02:33:35,120
they're looking at it holistically.

2009
02:33:35,860 --> 02:33:38,180
They're not right now the board is not looking at it.

2010
02:33:38,180 --> 02:33:39,780
I like it or I don't like it.

2011
02:33:40,060 --> 02:33:44,960
Yeah, and so if we get something that everybody says, I like it, that's sending a pretty strong

2012
02:33:44,960 --> 02:33:46,400
statement from the board.

2013
02:33:46,480 --> 02:33:50,320
I think that's a little bit different from what we have if they were just voting on consistency

2014
02:33:50,860 --> 02:33:52,660
versus whether they like it or not.

2015
02:33:53,080 --> 02:33:58,960
So I'm going to try to make a feeble attempt of summarizing what I think I heard and somebody

2016
02:33:58,960 --> 02:33:59,940
helped me.

2017
02:34:00,220 --> 02:34:06,160
Board determines plan consistency, but it's not limited to just that task.

2018
02:34:06,160 --> 02:34:10,740
And it provides input and feedback or something like that.

2019
02:34:10,740 --> 02:34:15,840
Council, if I can add, please, the real change in the ordinance, I think, or the LDO,

2020
02:34:16,000 --> 02:34:22,340
at least, correct me if I'm wrong, is it's changing the language that the P&Z board, or makes

2021
02:34:22,340 --> 02:34:25,220
a recommendation whether to approve or deny the amendment.

2022
02:34:25,800 --> 02:34:30,200
So it's taking that out, and they're not recommending how you approve or deny the amendment,

2023
02:34:30,320 --> 02:34:35,660
instead focusing on plan of consistency, but it's not in any way limiting them in their

2024
02:34:35,660 --> 02:34:39,340
conversations or on what Mark reports back to you.

2025
02:34:39,740 --> 02:34:43,180
And there are no longer going to be voting on rezoning.

2026
02:34:43,440 --> 02:34:45,460
They're going to take a vote on consistency.

2027
02:34:45,700 --> 02:34:47,100
On whether it is consistent.

2028
02:34:47,300 --> 02:34:51,980
They just wouldn't be telling you whether they think you should approve or deny it.

2029
02:34:52,460 --> 02:34:53,180
You said a amendment.

2030
02:34:53,480 --> 02:34:53,940
That's what threw me.

2031
02:34:54,120 --> 02:34:56,680
That's a rezoning amendment rezoning.

2032
02:34:58,580 --> 02:34:59,460
If I may.

2033
02:34:59,620 --> 02:34:59,900
Please.

2034
02:35:00,620 --> 02:35:01,520
I'm open.

2035
02:35:03,160 --> 02:35:07,920
Now, knowing the board as I do and the past members and everyone else, I find it really hard

2036
02:35:07,920 --> 02:35:14,460
to think that an entire consensus, that every member of the board, if they disliked something,

2037
02:35:15,140 --> 02:35:20,400
that not one member would say, I don't like this, but my hands are tied because it's consistent.

2038
02:35:20,560 --> 02:35:22,660
Ergo, I will vote that it's consistent.

2039
02:35:23,020 --> 02:35:29,260
Somebody is bound to say, if they don't like it, I don't like it enough that it's consistent.

2040
02:35:29,260 --> 02:35:35,680
in my mind as me, Joe Citizen, and that's how I'm going to see this, regardless of what the staff

2041
02:35:35,680 --> 02:35:36,080
recommended.

2042
02:35:36,400 --> 02:35:38,220
So I think that's possible.

2043
02:35:38,740 --> 02:35:44,760
I find it highly unlikely that if something goes unanimous, that it's consistent, that

2044
02:35:44,760 --> 02:35:48,360
it's got a lot of consternation with that.

2045
02:35:48,640 --> 02:35:56,660
Now, not to mix things up, but nine people being unanimous carries a lot more weight going on

2046
02:35:56,660 --> 02:35:59,790
than six, just throwing that out.

2047
02:36:02,900 --> 02:36:03,980
That's true.

2048
02:36:04,160 --> 02:36:06,480
How does a council want to move on this one?

2049
02:36:06,960 --> 02:36:08,040
I just got that.

2050
02:36:09,680 --> 02:36:15,820
I like that if it's explained to them the way

2051
02:36:15,820 --> 02:36:17,720
of Martin just explained it.

2052
02:36:18,160 --> 02:36:21,580
Is that he doesn't say, by the way,

2053
02:36:21,800 --> 02:36:23,840
your hands are tied, when you vote,

2054
02:36:23,840 --> 02:36:30,740
you only can vote, whether it's consistent or not, and you have this authoritarian, this is

2055
02:36:30,740 --> 02:36:36,200
what it's got to be, but he's saying you're still letting people say to them, speak to

2056
02:36:36,200 --> 02:36:41,260
mine, and vote their conscience, and not you're not tying the pants on the vote. So in that

2057
02:36:41,260 --> 02:36:46,460
regard, I see what you're saying about the nine votes. If there's a problem with several other

2058
02:36:46,460 --> 02:36:50,560
than they're probably going to vote against us. So my follow-up to that would be, certainly,

2059
02:36:50,560 --> 02:36:55,800
with today. Five years from now, you have a whole new board. Okay, maybe seven years from now,

2060
02:36:55,940 --> 02:37:00,320
a whole new board. Does that still hold true? Or are they reading this a different way,

2061
02:37:00,500 --> 02:37:07,340
interpreting it a different way? So I think the whatever we have needs to be clear of what we expect.

2062
02:37:07,740 --> 02:37:12,620
And so we could address that by putting language in the text of the amendment, which isn't there now,

2063
02:37:12,640 --> 02:37:18,940
to say that they're free to discuss and debate. And recommend. Well, that's a different question,

2064
02:37:18,940 --> 02:37:22,600
But several things we could do, one is not making them in at all,

2065
02:37:22,740 --> 02:37:25,240
and then they would still be essentially giving you two votes.

2066
02:37:25,620 --> 02:37:27,940
One on consistency and one on approval or denial,

2067
02:37:28,100 --> 02:37:29,400
which is really what they're doing today.

2068
02:37:29,560 --> 02:37:32,980
You see one number, but if they're really making two decisions,

2069
02:37:33,620 --> 02:37:37,700
the other option that might help is to take out the second vote

2070
02:37:37,700 --> 02:37:41,480
on approval or denial, but put language in here to guide the board

2071
02:37:41,480 --> 02:37:43,900
so that they know that they don't have to only discuss

2072
02:37:43,900 --> 02:37:44,800
plan consistency.

2073
02:37:45,160 --> 02:37:48,160
They can talk about whatever they'd like to in the context

2074
02:37:48,160 --> 02:37:53,020
the rezoning, so therefore the chair can report that entire discussion back to you, but that

2075
02:37:53,020 --> 02:37:57,240
the only piece they'd be voting on would be consistency. So we could add language in here to guide them along

2076
02:37:57,240 --> 02:38:03,160
that path. So my humble opinion is, we're not ready to take this decision. Yeah. We'd like it

2077
02:38:03,160 --> 02:38:08,200
is bring it back. Yes. And for any of these four, if there's additional things we need to do,

2078
02:38:08,340 --> 02:38:11,820
we can tweak the language and bring it back. I probably need to discuss this more. I agree.

2079
02:38:12,080 --> 02:38:16,400
I'm not comfortable. I also want to talk about the problem that we're trying to solve, right?

2080
02:38:16,400 --> 02:38:20,840
because I think we're trying, again, we've seen some shifts.

2081
02:38:21,100 --> 02:38:22,720
We've seen some change, right?

2082
02:38:23,680 --> 02:38:25,980
Because the Imagine Carry is a big shift in change.

2083
02:38:26,600 --> 02:38:29,500
So I think maybe this one's worth giving some time

2084
02:38:29,500 --> 02:38:31,780
and watching and seeing how many-

2085
02:38:31,780 --> 02:38:33,100
When's our quarterly meeting?

2086
02:38:33,580 --> 02:38:33,700
Second.

2087
02:38:34,040 --> 02:38:34,920
August 16th.

2088
02:38:34,940 --> 02:38:36,180
The weeks coming up.

2089
02:38:36,460 --> 02:38:37,160
We're not good.

2090
02:38:37,380 --> 02:38:47,240
I'm just not sure what has changed to bring it back other than

2091
02:38:47,240 --> 02:38:56,640
And just noticing over the past several months, since this topic first came up as a councilperson

2092
02:38:56,640 --> 02:39:03,040
Bush is saying that there's been, there's, the board has evolved, the council's connection

2093
02:39:03,040 --> 02:39:08,660
to the board has evolved, and by all what appearances it seems to be to the relationship

2094
02:39:08,660 --> 02:39:14,800
dysfunction at a pretty high level, but as far as bringing it back, I don't know what's

2095
02:39:14,800 --> 02:39:17,760
really different, you know, that would trigger from them.

2096
02:39:17,760 --> 02:39:20,340
I'm hearing the explanation will be in right.

2097
02:39:20,600 --> 02:39:23,380
If I saw that and go, yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

2098
02:39:23,900 --> 02:39:26,100
Okay, then I would be ready to support it.

2099
02:39:26,140 --> 02:39:30,480
Right now, I'm like, I'm not really sure what we're talking about here.

2100
02:39:31,080 --> 02:39:32,140
And I'm just reading.

2101
02:39:32,300 --> 02:39:34,380
So this fall, okay, so far as far as number one.

2102
02:39:35,240 --> 02:39:35,960
Got to know it.

2103
02:39:36,280 --> 02:39:39,940
Confidence level that it will be written in the way that we think what

2104
02:39:39,940 --> 02:39:41,120
the reflex or conveying.

2105
02:39:42,040 --> 02:39:42,280
Okay.

2106
02:39:42,960 --> 02:39:47,760
So you'd like to see staff draft language to guide the board on that they can talk about

2107
02:39:47,760 --> 02:39:48,200
a wide.

2108
02:39:48,260 --> 02:39:54,200
And it might be a quick conversation and vote, I mean, as soon as we see it all fleshed

2109
02:39:54,200 --> 02:39:54,440
out.

2110
02:39:56,020 --> 02:39:58,360
Number two does not public hearings.

2111
02:39:59,040 --> 02:40:03,920
I totally agree with what you said, gosh, you guys are not accountable and I've seen

2112
02:40:03,920 --> 02:40:07,240
some of the things you guys had put up with and it was just shameful.

2113
02:40:07,740 --> 02:40:10,340
The intention was you too.

2114
02:40:10,340 --> 02:40:18,060
The original intention is probably my idea is, if things change, we need to give the public another opportunity to have a shot at this.

2115
02:40:18,620 --> 02:40:22,960
And we still need to do that, but not at your expense, because that's not what you're there for.

2116
02:40:23,160 --> 02:40:27,500
So I totally agree with the second one. I don't know about the others here.

2117
02:40:27,580 --> 02:40:28,920
I think this might be an easy one.

2118
02:40:29,040 --> 02:40:32,360
I think it was a great idea. I think it's good sometimes to try things.

2119
02:40:32,640 --> 02:40:33,400
We learned from it.

2120
02:40:34,940 --> 02:40:37,000
It was some unintended consequences.

2121
02:40:37,440 --> 02:40:38,740
We own it. We're responsible.

2122
02:40:39,140 --> 02:40:42,440
We're the ones of others, but of course, got to come back to us.

2123
02:40:42,660 --> 02:40:48,760
So the way I understand the proposal is instead of going to P and Z for public hearing,

2124
02:40:49,880 --> 02:40:54,480
he will reverse, come back to us because they may change is we'll have another public hearing

2125
02:40:54,480 --> 02:40:57,380
on the changes or not on the changes.

2126
02:40:58,060 --> 02:41:00,760
Well, it's hard to limit people to only talking to changes.

2127
02:41:00,760 --> 02:41:03,840
So we might not even try that to say another public hearing.

2128
02:41:04,500 --> 02:41:06,760
And now in a news that reverts back, so I want to make sure it's clear.

2129
02:41:06,920 --> 02:41:10,040
We would still go counsel public hearing, go to PNZ.

2130
02:41:10,220 --> 02:41:12,360
If at any point in there, they add new conditions,

2131
02:41:13,000 --> 02:41:17,740
your final decision, the third meeting when it comes to you,

2132
02:41:17,760 --> 02:41:20,520
counsel PNZ counsel would be a public hearing,

2133
02:41:20,960 --> 02:41:22,380
and you could then decide that night.

2134
02:41:22,680 --> 02:41:25,100
Or not, it's up to you at that point.

2135
02:41:25,520 --> 02:41:28,480
You know, sometimes the changes are minor and you may get it.

2136
02:41:28,480 --> 02:41:33,080
that there is they just get two more minutes to speak well I think I'm always the

2137
02:41:33,080 --> 02:41:36,820
devil's advocate so what if it's eight to zero and it goes on consent but there

2138
02:41:36,820 --> 02:41:41,000
were changes is there a public hearing on consent I mean how do you do that although

2139
02:41:41,000 --> 02:41:46,220
it wouldn't be on consent anymore if it requires a different any changes yes then

2140
02:41:46,220 --> 02:41:53,060
so consent is that that needs more work because no the public hearing is our

2141
02:41:53,060 --> 02:41:56,940
opportunity to let the applicant know what our concerns are and then at that

2142
02:41:56,940 --> 02:42:01,520
point, we actually expect them to go make some changes in order to earn our support.

2143
02:42:02,420 --> 02:42:07,900
So we're almost like guaranteeing two public hearings in front of the Council and before

2144
02:42:07,900 --> 02:42:08,420
the decision.

2145
02:42:08,640 --> 02:42:09,260
And no consent.

2146
02:42:11,540 --> 02:42:16,900
I would probably recommend that we don't do the second public hearing in front of Council

2147
02:42:16,900 --> 02:42:19,740
and give people the opportunity to speak at public speaks out.

2148
02:42:20,660 --> 02:42:25,500
And then if we think it's serious enough that it warns a second public hearing, we can

2149
02:42:25,500 --> 02:42:26,180
call for it.

2150
02:42:26,180 --> 02:42:27,900
All right, great. That's, yeah.

2151
02:42:28,120 --> 02:42:30,560
Wait, when would they do it at the public?

2152
02:42:30,860 --> 02:42:32,140
How are we supposed to?

2153
02:42:32,200 --> 02:42:36,620
It's just like now, except for we've eliminated the PNC public here.

2154
02:42:37,440 --> 02:42:37,620
Right.

2155
02:42:37,720 --> 02:42:38,600
They could still come and talk.

2156
02:42:38,760 --> 02:42:39,740
They could still always come and talk.

2157
02:42:39,740 --> 02:42:41,060
It's exactly how they could still email.

2158
02:42:41,400 --> 02:42:41,920
They could still call.

2159
02:42:42,120 --> 02:42:43,040
They could still write letters.

2160
02:42:43,220 --> 02:42:44,040
They could still do whatever.

2161
02:42:44,620 --> 02:42:47,860
And if we think the changes are significant enough

2162
02:42:47,860 --> 02:42:50,920
that warrant a second public hearing, we can call for it.

2163
02:42:51,300 --> 02:42:52,640
So I just want to make sure.

2164
02:42:52,900 --> 02:42:55,000
So we can let say something's on consent,

2165
02:42:55,000 --> 02:42:57,160
but there's been big changes, right?

2166
02:42:57,180 --> 02:42:57,820
It's on consent.

2167
02:42:58,140 --> 02:42:59,760
So we do a public speak that.

2168
02:43:00,220 --> 02:43:03,320
Right, are you saying that we would do a public hearing?

2169
02:43:03,420 --> 02:43:04,840
We would call for public hearing.

2170
02:43:04,960 --> 02:43:05,940
Would we table it?

2171
02:43:06,120 --> 02:43:07,140
I mean, you're...

2172
02:43:07,140 --> 02:43:09,560
Sounds kind of catching staff off guard,

2173
02:43:09,580 --> 02:43:11,520
because there's a lot of work that's different

2174
02:43:11,520 --> 02:43:12,640
for public hearing than for...

2175
02:43:12,640 --> 02:43:14,520
But the public hearing couldn't happen that night

2176
02:43:14,520 --> 02:43:15,720
because you'd have to give notice.

2177
02:43:15,940 --> 02:43:17,800
So you'd be pulling it off consent,

2178
02:43:18,500 --> 02:43:21,340
talking about it, voting to call a public hearing.

2179
02:43:21,420 --> 02:43:22,540
So we're delaying the process.

2180
02:43:22,540 --> 02:43:32,860
the process. And is that what is that? Is that is that it's optional? It's not. Yeah, that's always an option even today. It's an option. Right?

2181
02:43:33,160 --> 02:43:41,780
And the reality is if it gets an 80 vote at planning and zoning board, I don't know that this council is going to at least the majority think it needs another public hearing.

2182
02:43:42,360 --> 02:43:43,820
Oh, that's my question.

2183
02:43:45,000 --> 02:43:50,680
Or you may, like, did we suddenly just suggest another neighborhood meeting like we do with the gas station?

2184
02:43:50,680 --> 02:43:54,180
Right, wasn't a public hearing, but it accomplished the goal of the council was seeking.

2185
02:43:54,560 --> 02:43:59,680
Right. So there's no, sorry. I don't know. Are there any legal reasons for having a second public hearing?

2186
02:43:59,820 --> 02:44:01,260
You're only a project of one.

2187
02:44:02,300 --> 02:44:03,740
All right. I just want to make sure I understood.

2188
02:44:04,240 --> 02:44:05,560
So we have a public hearing.

2189
02:44:07,660 --> 02:44:09,520
And you know how we make our comments.

2190
02:44:09,740 --> 02:44:12,120
You know, we can't make you do this.

2191
02:44:12,360 --> 02:44:14,520
It has to be your right.

2192
02:44:15,040 --> 02:44:15,060
Right. Right.

2193
02:44:15,400 --> 02:44:17,180
And if they decide

2194
02:44:18,680 --> 02:44:25,640
between that public hearing and P&Z they make changes and P&Z looks at it and believes it's

2195
02:44:25,640 --> 02:44:33,500
now consistent and it becomes unanimous that it's up to us if we want to make any changes

2196
02:44:33,500 --> 02:44:35,480
but it'll come back on the consent.

2197
02:44:36,180 --> 02:44:41,220
Just the gas stations are good examples have been out there for over a year and we think

2198
02:44:41,220 --> 02:44:46,040
we've done our due diligence and actually it was late involvement so we had a little.

2199
02:44:46,040 --> 02:44:47,460
All right, I just want to understand.

2200
02:44:47,920 --> 02:44:51,240
The cool thing is we have the power if we think we need to table it and have another

2201
02:44:51,240 --> 02:44:53,460
neighborhood being public hearing of what we want to do.

2202
02:44:53,580 --> 02:44:54,260
We can do it.

2203
02:44:55,300 --> 02:44:59,980
So what I'm hearing in our last four motion is on the second one.

2204
02:45:00,000 --> 02:45:03,700
And we want to eliminate the public hearings at P and Z.

2205
02:45:03,940 --> 02:45:05,100
So, I wouldn't have to mean this.

2206
02:45:05,100 --> 02:45:06,180
I'm sorry, Ken.

2207
02:45:08,280 --> 02:45:17,220
So, if we were to do the no guaranteed second public hearing, we've just communicated to people,

2208
02:45:17,920 --> 02:45:23,480
they can make changes, and the only thing you'll have a public speaks out opportunity

2209
02:45:23,480 --> 02:45:24,260
to speak.

2210
02:45:26,140 --> 02:45:34,480
But they want, I'm concerned about them knowing that there's changes, whereas right now

2211
02:45:34,480 --> 02:45:40,720
they're guaranteed to know there's changes because there's an automatic second public hearing.

2212
02:45:41,720 --> 02:45:46,200
And that triggers in anybody who's watching it. Oh, there's another public hearing.

2213
02:45:46,280 --> 02:45:51,120
They must have made changes because we were told if they made changes there's a second public hearing.

2214
02:45:52,140 --> 02:45:58,380
If we don't, if we do away with that requirement for a second public hearing, then there's no trigger for

2215
02:45:58,380 --> 02:46:05,360
Joe John Q. Public to know that they made changes. They're just going to have to call the staff and find out because

2216
02:46:05,360 --> 02:46:08,280
it doesn't show up as a public hearing because there's changes.

2217
02:46:08,780 --> 02:46:10,480
Can the staff report staff report or what?

2218
02:46:10,640 --> 02:46:16,480
And the public, John Q. Public is not going to get the staff report and read it whereas if it's a public hearing,

2219
02:46:16,700 --> 02:46:17,660
they're going to know about it.

2220
02:46:17,660 --> 02:46:19,000
But if they're at the public,

2221
02:46:19,400 --> 02:46:20,660
you're reading the staff reported.

2222
02:46:21,100 --> 02:46:22,320
If it's happening next to your neighbor,

2223
02:46:22,500 --> 02:46:23,380
you're reading the staff report.

2224
02:46:23,680 --> 02:46:26,020
And if you're at a public hearing,

2225
02:46:26,040 --> 02:46:27,380
you've made your concerns,

2226
02:46:28,080 --> 02:46:29,160
and they've been addressed.

2227
02:46:31,780 --> 02:46:33,120
Who are you?

2228
02:46:33,400 --> 02:46:35,240
Who are you trying to make it aware to?

2229
02:46:35,460 --> 02:46:36,060
It's better addressed.

2230
02:46:36,220 --> 02:46:37,120
We think you're robbing.

2231
02:46:37,500 --> 02:46:39,520
The condition doesn't satisfy what they're asking.

2232
02:46:40,200 --> 02:46:41,080
That's right.

2233
02:46:41,100 --> 02:46:43,280
But it is better than what it was.

2234
02:46:44,140 --> 02:46:45,540
It's always better.

2235
02:46:45,540 --> 02:46:46,440
They can always work.

2236
02:46:46,940 --> 02:46:48,020
They can always come to public speaks.

2237
02:46:48,020 --> 02:46:50,920
Right, and we always table it all for public hearing people.

2238
02:46:51,840 --> 02:46:51,900
Absolutely.

2239
02:46:52,440 --> 02:47:00,740
The most important point of this is we are not reducing any public input, any opportunity for public input.

2240
02:47:01,140 --> 02:47:10,700
And we're not doing anything except streamlining it so that, in fact, we're giving our citizens a more direct line to us.

2241
02:47:10,700 --> 02:47:16,380
and rather them feeling that they're only get an opportunity to talk about it at planning

2242
02:47:16,380 --> 02:47:22,020
and zoning board, who, although we absolutely love you guys, you weren't elected.

2243
02:47:22,540 --> 02:47:26,880
So I just want anybody who might be listening to this to think we are not deciding that you

2244
02:47:26,880 --> 02:47:31,400
have less opportunity, but rather it's so important that we want to have the council table.

2245
02:47:31,520 --> 02:47:37,880
And maybe we can enhance the staff reports to have a section called change.

2246
02:47:38,940 --> 02:47:40,720
And we have that today.

2247
02:47:41,280 --> 02:47:45,340
Yeah, but make it prominent at the top in red, I don't know.

2248
02:47:45,540 --> 02:47:47,000
We're not red, that's fake color.

2249
02:47:47,340 --> 02:47:52,600
Or on the, you know, on the zoning, not the staff report.

2250
02:47:52,800 --> 02:47:57,300
But when somebody clicks on the website because they're following it,

2251
02:47:57,360 --> 02:48:00,980
they don't have to drill down that they click on that.

2252
02:48:01,060 --> 02:48:05,740
And right there at the top it says these following conditions have been added

2253
02:48:05,740 --> 02:48:09,480
since the last public hearing, that's what I'm concerned about.

2254
02:48:09,660 --> 02:48:10,740
And I want it to be clear.

2255
02:48:10,880 --> 02:48:13,440
And Laurie, this is something that the web thing is so important

2256
02:48:13,440 --> 02:48:15,880
when you talk about how the technology is doing,

2257
02:48:16,340 --> 02:48:19,400
is that if we, if it's so clear and easy for somebody

2258
02:48:19,400 --> 02:48:22,880
to click on it and say 16, R, E, or 18, R, E, whatever,

2259
02:48:23,280 --> 02:48:25,120
and they click on it and they say, oh, look,

2260
02:48:25,420 --> 02:48:28,000
they added new conditions, because it says right here,

2261
02:48:28,180 --> 02:48:30,140
in bold print, right under the thing,

2262
02:48:30,440 --> 02:48:32,700
and then I'm going to say, wow, and then you could say,

2263
02:48:32,700 --> 02:48:38,180
And you can speak the next the next council you could have information. Yeah, about

2264
02:48:38,780 --> 02:48:42,940
I think it's I think that will be all I don't think any of these changes are bad

2265
02:48:42,940 --> 02:48:50,400
But just to reiterate for the general public for the most concerned citizens about an application our staff members have

2266
02:48:51,200 --> 02:48:58,320
Face-to-face means with them. So forget, you know special highlighted parts of the staff report or clicking links

2267
02:48:58,320 --> 02:49:00,320
That's actually meet with them, right?

2268
02:49:00,480 --> 02:49:02,460
Deborah, Katie, Mary, I've been there.

2269
02:49:03,960 --> 02:49:11,180
And I mean, this council doesn't do anything to reduce public input.

2270
02:49:11,640 --> 02:49:14,860
You are always an hands-in, and I think Laura captured it.

2271
02:49:15,120 --> 02:49:21,620
This is an efficiency that allows for the council to have more direct control over it.

2272
02:49:22,520 --> 02:49:23,300
But it's an enhancement.

2273
02:49:23,300 --> 02:49:31,440
And the staff will always know what are those items that are the most sensitive in trying to do it in theories kind of difficult

2274
02:49:31,440 --> 02:49:34,660
And there's more public input that is needed

2275
02:49:34,660 --> 02:49:37,580
You'll sense it will sense it and we'll know what to do

2276
02:49:37,580 --> 02:49:41,940
Okay, and importantly deep politicizes a citizen advisory board

2277
02:49:41,940 --> 02:49:43,300
Yep, it's good

2278
02:49:43,300 --> 02:49:43,600
So

2279
02:49:44,170 --> 02:49:46,260
We need a motion for the

2280
02:49:46,260 --> 02:49:52,660
I would actually ask that you not because the way we have it drafted right now the language would require the second public hearing

2281
02:49:52,660 --> 02:49:56,060
in front of you and I'm here and you don't want that. So we need to tweak the language.

2282
02:49:56,420 --> 02:49:57,700
Okay, so we'll see that one.

2283
02:49:57,860 --> 02:50:00,380
So we can bring that back as we bring back item one.

2284
02:50:00,480 --> 02:50:05,080
Okay, we just, I think the whole tonight is to get the feedback and get it cleaned up.

2285
02:50:05,580 --> 02:50:09,640
I don't want to rush it because we can't just make a motion that says that we may move

2286
02:50:09,640 --> 02:50:12,360
that the planning is on in board no longer conduct public hearings.

2287
02:50:12,360 --> 02:50:13,420
Very good.

2288
02:50:14,820 --> 02:50:14,840
Yeah.

2289
02:50:15,260 --> 02:50:19,960
I think it's, I think it'll, we could do it if it really matters to you, but I think the safest thing

2290
02:50:19,960 --> 02:50:23,680
to wait and bring back the operative language to change.

2291
02:50:24,100 --> 02:50:25,100
Yeah, when when that occurs.

2292
02:50:25,440 --> 02:50:28,100
After I leave that to Mr. Stigol,

2293
02:50:28,240 --> 02:50:30,740
it could be as soon as August the 9th

2294
02:50:30,740 --> 02:50:31,940
when you had a QJ meeting.

2295
02:50:32,060 --> 02:50:33,760
I'll be August the 9th when you have a QJ meeting.

2296
02:50:33,960 --> 02:50:35,200
All right.

2297
02:50:35,200 --> 02:50:36,040
We'll do it.

2298
02:50:36,040 --> 02:50:37,060
I just want to make sure.

2299
02:50:37,420 --> 02:50:38,420
That was E.T. J.

2300
02:50:39,280 --> 02:50:39,720
Equate.

2301
02:50:42,780 --> 02:50:44,560
Mr. Yara, I know you have a strong opinion.

2302
02:50:44,960 --> 02:50:46,000
Let's go ahead.

2303
02:50:46,200 --> 02:50:46,800
Yeah, what?

2304
02:50:47,060 --> 02:50:51,200
The last two, I'm a no vote on those

2305
02:50:51,200 --> 02:50:58,080
to the ETJ member, I think, Mr. Vangelist to explain his explanation before was really good

2306
02:50:58,080 --> 02:51:06,120
on that one, usually is on everything smart. And it's also, it also gets complicated. I mean,

2307
02:51:06,220 --> 02:51:12,600
what if something just butts the ETJ of what a rezoning comes in, but it's not in the ETJ.

2308
02:51:13,200 --> 02:51:18,020
And the ETJ member can't vote on that even though it's going to be right next door to them.

2309
02:51:18,020 --> 02:51:23,220
The ETA is don't at holes throughout town and traffic goes through the ETA.

2310
02:51:23,820 --> 02:51:32,300
I mean, cutting the ETA member out of this discussion, I just don't, I don't see it.

2311
02:51:32,880 --> 02:51:37,820
I think some of our most valuable planning is only board members in the past have been ETA members,

2312
02:51:38,440 --> 02:51:40,960
and I don't think they just looked at the ETA.

2313
02:51:43,840 --> 02:51:47,840
I trust them to be responsible planning and zoning board members across the floor.

2314
02:51:49,900 --> 02:51:57,520
Okay, I thought I actually was surprised at the conversation and I missed that dialogue, but

2315
02:51:58,140 --> 02:52:05,080
I don't want us to get to kindergarten where everybody has to be inclusive and we all get a star because we can talk

2316
02:52:05,080 --> 02:52:14,860
I want ETA to represent ETA. I really do. I you know this argument that the tone of holes aren't that many we're fixing them

2317
02:52:16,020 --> 02:52:22,060
I want an ETA perspective on those cases that impact them.

2318
02:52:23,880 --> 02:52:29,300
But I thought when we were looking at not best practices, but we were looking at practices

2319
02:52:29,300 --> 02:52:32,400
that other communities, they weren't involved.

2320
02:52:34,220 --> 02:52:39,110
And I don't have a big dog at this fight.

2321
02:52:39,210 --> 02:52:44,210
I don't know if the mood is let's let them talk, let them talk, but I think their focus

2322
02:52:44,210 --> 02:52:49,690
should be on E.T.J., half the time we can't get anybody to film this lot.

2323
02:52:50,250 --> 02:52:56,750
We have so few E.T.J. opportunities, I guess, for lack of a better word.

2324
02:52:58,270 --> 02:53:07,070
I just, I don't think is that critical that they have a book on all the other things.

2325
02:53:07,110 --> 02:53:09,690
I think the focus on E.T.J. should be E.T.J.

2326
02:53:09,690 --> 02:53:15,010
But you all can talk, yeah, that's my thought.

2327
02:53:16,170 --> 02:53:19,070
Well, I'll make a point, I guess.

2328
02:53:19,670 --> 02:53:23,850
I was leaning towards this, that EEG members, right?

2329
02:53:23,870 --> 02:53:27,230
They have a focus on EEG.

2330
02:53:27,550 --> 02:53:28,710
They live in that area.

2331
02:53:29,090 --> 02:53:31,850
They want to represent the area, right?

2332
02:53:32,470 --> 02:53:35,690
They feel, you know, like we had discussions with the world.

2333
02:53:35,690 --> 02:53:39,050
But I have to say I was a bit swayed by Mr.

2334
02:53:39,190 --> 02:53:41,610
Evangelista that saying, you know, they're all

2335
02:53:41,610 --> 02:53:45,290
come with their own individual feelings about something,

2336
02:53:45,290 --> 02:53:46,950
whether or not they live in it or not.

2337
02:53:47,090 --> 02:53:50,110
And there are ETJ, there's several ETJ,

2338
02:53:50,190 --> 02:53:51,970
don't it holes near where I live.

2339
02:53:52,730 --> 02:53:59,150
And I agree with you that when we have a great ETJ,

2340
02:53:59,190 --> 02:54:02,410
remember, as we've had on PNZ and that we've worked

2341
02:54:02,410 --> 02:54:05,530
within the past, I think they offer a lot of value

2342
02:54:05,530 --> 02:54:11,770
Especially, some of those E.C.J. members have lived here longer than us collectively, right?

2343
02:54:12,270 --> 02:54:18,910
So they have a point, some of them have had unique points of view, so I could, you know,

2344
02:54:18,990 --> 02:54:24,190
I was leaning towards agreeing with that one, but I have to say that, you know, I, I'd like

2345
02:54:24,190 --> 02:54:28,890
to hold off and see how things go, because I think we're going to have more and more down

2346
02:54:28,890 --> 02:54:33,290
at all, and you also have a great point this year, how that, you know, a lot of people drive

2347
02:54:33,290 --> 02:54:35,890
through the ETA to get from one part of Carey to another.

2348
02:54:36,730 --> 02:54:39,550
So I'd be okay leaving it the way it is for now.

2349
02:54:40,070 --> 02:54:42,690
And kind of tabling this one and maybe revisiting it

2350
02:54:42,690 --> 02:54:45,590
as we tweak this slowly, right?

2351
02:54:46,450 --> 02:54:48,790
So the ETA member votes on everything.

2352
02:54:50,350 --> 02:54:52,070
Well, first of all, I thought we had codes

2353
02:54:52,070 --> 02:54:54,090
that we don't allow any more op-dometals.

2354
02:54:54,230 --> 02:54:56,310
We don't create the opportunity for don't votes.

2355
02:54:56,630 --> 02:54:57,390
Am I wrong in that?

2356
02:54:57,490 --> 02:55:00,330
Well, so ETA and Donut holds a really two different things.

2357
02:55:00,330 --> 02:55:04,110
But we have not asked to create any more extraterritorial

2358
02:55:04,110 --> 02:55:05,490
jurisdiction in a long time.

2359
02:55:05,590 --> 02:55:07,750
I know 10 years because that's how long I've been here.

2360
02:55:08,050 --> 02:55:10,330
So we're not creating new ETA at this point.

2361
02:55:12,570 --> 02:55:13,910
You know, we have an ETA.

2362
02:55:14,410 --> 02:55:15,310
You don't have a whole number.

2363
02:55:16,130 --> 02:55:18,250
In your argument, that's what I'm saying.

2364
02:55:18,670 --> 02:55:21,090
You mentioned earlier about rural.

2365
02:55:21,250 --> 02:55:23,150
I think that's a good example why not.

2366
02:55:23,410 --> 02:55:27,950
You get somebody on that was here 30 years ago.

2367
02:55:27,950 --> 02:55:35,690
They have a lot of wisdom, they're bringing to the table, respect that, but we're not in a rural world anymore.

2368
02:55:35,910 --> 02:55:41,530
This is the discussion we had 20, 25 years ago when we created all these conditions for that growth.

2369
02:55:42,030 --> 02:55:48,910
And one of the things that we struggle with is eventually it's going away.

2370
02:55:49,670 --> 02:55:54,690
By doing the zoning we did back then, which I know that you were very strong for,

2371
02:55:54,690 --> 02:56:00,470
We tried to make sure that we were involved in the deliberation, that we were involved in the discussion,

2372
02:56:01,090 --> 02:56:07,650
but the reality is those one acre lots aren't going to be there anymore in West Carrier.

2373
02:56:07,970 --> 02:56:08,730
They're going away.

2374
02:56:10,230 --> 02:56:18,830
And what I've experienced with E.T.J. is when the individual is so focused on the past,

2375
02:56:18,830 --> 02:56:29,930
And is I struggle with making decisions that are unique to a D.T.J. that are not unique to the rest of the carry.

2376
02:56:30,370 --> 02:56:42,510
I struggle with that. And I don't want an D.T.J. opinion affecting those when a lot of them had concerns about the fact that carry is encroaching on D.T.J.

2377
02:56:42,510 --> 02:56:47,930
I mean, maybe I'm not saying it well, and maybe it sounds harsh, but types are changing.

2378
02:56:49,110 --> 02:56:55,770
And I think it's fair that people that live in an ETA have a voice as curious in vacuum.

2379
02:56:55,970 --> 02:56:59,870
I think that's absolutely valid concern.

2380
02:57:00,610 --> 02:57:09,470
But if it's somewhere on the other end of carry and it affects growth or whatever, and we're

2381
02:57:09,470 --> 02:57:20,610
allowing those concerns to be displaced over there, I don't think that that adds any value to the discussion, my opinion.

2382
02:57:23,140 --> 02:57:30,220
Okay, well, one thing I'd say that I appreciate Mark's opinion on is going down from nine voting members to six.

2383
02:57:30,880 --> 02:57:32,820
I'd much rather have seven voting members.

2384
02:57:33,180 --> 02:57:37,820
Whether that person is from the ETA or whether it's a carry resident and flexible,

2385
02:57:37,820 --> 02:57:42,040
but I'd like to ask to have seven people voting, not just six.

2386
02:57:42,620 --> 02:57:47,820
Well, or not state rules require that we have an E.T.J. member, so it's, that's right.

2387
02:57:47,820 --> 02:57:48,880
Right, but it's still that.

2388
02:57:49,040 --> 02:57:51,740
But Mark would say if you take that person out of the vote.

2389
02:57:51,940 --> 02:57:52,520
I hear what you're saying.

2390
02:57:53,140 --> 02:57:54,920
But you said whether it's an E.T.J. member or not.

2391
02:57:55,380 --> 02:57:57,800
So it's going to be an E.T.J. member.

2392
02:57:58,320 --> 02:57:59,860
There is going to be one on the board.

2393
02:57:59,960 --> 02:58:02,300
This could be one on the board, but may not,

2394
02:58:02,300 --> 02:58:03,360
They're saying, there's not a case.

2395
02:58:03,360 --> 02:58:03,740
They're saying what, a case?

2396
02:58:03,740 --> 02:58:04,120
It's not voting.

2397
02:58:04,760 --> 02:58:08,020
That I don't want to take two people, two additional people off the board.

2398
02:58:08,180 --> 02:58:11,680
If like, keep one additional person on there so we have to sit in a voting amount.

2399
02:58:11,700 --> 02:58:12,020
Gotcha.

2400
02:58:12,980 --> 02:58:20,540
I agree with the argument to keep the E.T.J. Member, a voting member, and then I also agree

2401
02:58:20,540 --> 02:58:26,380
with Mr. Smith's comments and my own personal feelings that should have non-carry, citizen,

2402
02:58:26,840 --> 02:58:31,260
have a voice, an official vote on what happens?

2403
02:58:31,260 --> 02:58:33,920
or doesn't happen, say, in downtown, for example,

2404
02:58:36,620 --> 02:58:39,860
how we strike that balance of when

2405
02:58:39,860 --> 02:58:44,520
it matters, or when they should be able to vote, or when they should, I don't know.

2406
02:58:44,820 --> 02:58:48,620
At the end of the day, I think either let them vote, you know, that's the only way to do

2407
02:58:48,620 --> 02:58:49,260
it.

2408
02:58:51,520 --> 02:59:01,120
So if we were to go to seven members, if then I would come down on the side that you are talking

2409
02:59:01,120 --> 02:59:03,940
about that you have an ATJ member and they're allowed them to vote.

2410
02:59:04,220 --> 02:59:08,160
So you don't end up with a six voting and three to three votes.

2411
02:59:08,880 --> 02:59:08,920
Okay.

2412
02:59:09,560 --> 02:59:10,180
That's a good one.

2413
02:59:10,660 --> 02:59:10,780
All right.

2414
02:59:11,000 --> 02:59:15,780
So that that sweys me more to letting the ATJ member vote more than anything.

2415
02:59:16,200 --> 02:59:19,760
And reality is you could make the same, whether you kept it at nine, because then you've got

2416
02:59:19,760 --> 02:59:21,320
four to four on a lot of things.

2417
02:59:21,580 --> 02:59:29,440
So it's, I have my own thoughts on number four, but the ATJ one I'm not married to, you know,

2418
02:59:29,440 --> 02:59:38,410
There's certain, I mean, I actually attend every P&Z meeting, so I find it more valuable than

2419
02:59:38,410 --> 02:59:44,110
watching them on TV because you get to watch the whole board dynamic as things are taking

2420
02:59:44,110 --> 02:59:54,450
place versus where the camera's pointed. And I feel like I've gotten pretty good at determining

2421
02:59:54,450 --> 02:59:59,550
who's sincere, who's making reasonable legitimate.

2422
03:00:00,720 --> 03:00:20,840
Passionate cases on something, and then who's just voting note of vote no. Again. So I'm okay allowing the team members. So with all due respect, I'm hearing opinions voting up and down. So I would recommend we do a motion and go ahead and vote.

2423
03:00:21,940 --> 03:00:25,000
That's what we're hearing. I like it. I don't like it.

2424
03:00:25,000 --> 03:00:31,040
tied two of them together which is really interesting to me. I would vote if it were seven,

2425
03:00:31,100 --> 03:00:37,100
if everyone wanted to go for a less number seven, then I would vote to include the ETA.

2426
03:00:37,440 --> 03:00:42,960
If we're going to be nine, I might be swayed on the ETA one. So if we're going to do it,

2427
03:00:43,060 --> 03:00:48,300
I'd like us to, you know, to talk about these together if we can't because I really get better.

2428
03:00:48,520 --> 03:00:51,420
The way he tied them together made a lot of sense to me.

2429
03:00:56,520 --> 03:01:02,840
I'm really, well, I find it very curious, one of the points of being made here about representation.

2430
03:01:03,600 --> 03:01:09,360
There is, in my mind, and I believe the mind collectively of the planning and zoning board.

2431
03:01:09,880 --> 03:01:15,980
There is a big difference between providing a perspective and representing a constituency.

2432
03:01:16,820 --> 03:01:25,140
At our last PMZ meeting, I pointedly asked the ETJ rep, do you believe your job is to represent

2433
03:01:25,140 --> 03:01:31,020
the ETJ consistency, or constituency, and she said no, it is to function as a board member,

2434
03:01:31,460 --> 03:01:36,320
like everyone else, and she no more represents those folks than I represent Regency.

2435
03:01:37,520 --> 03:01:43,420
It is just, we're just all, as you said several times, individual citizens thinking in terms

2436
03:01:43,420 --> 03:01:44,280
of individual citizens.

2437
03:01:44,280 --> 03:01:49,000
Now, that doesn't, in any way, get around the, they're not a citizen of carry voting on carry.

2438
03:01:49,120 --> 03:01:50,740
I mean, we still have to deal with that.

2439
03:01:50,960 --> 03:01:58,180
But in terms of the representation thing, I don't think in, in operation, that's how it goes.

2440
03:01:58,820 --> 03:02:04,720
Now, if someone, and there's, I tried to look at this standing back from someone outside of the,

2441
03:02:04,720 --> 03:02:08,240
the envelope who knows a little bit of what's going on, and if, and I kept thinking, there's

2442
03:02:08,240 --> 03:02:09,580
two things that I would conclude.

2443
03:02:09,580 --> 03:02:19,720
One is that the ETA person is representing ETA and the second would be that they're almost always doing that in opposition to carry at large.

2444
03:02:20,360 --> 03:02:23,520
That's how someone would think of this the way it's always been discussed.

2445
03:02:24,420 --> 03:02:26,160
In operation it's not that way.

2446
03:02:26,960 --> 03:02:35,800
If you look back and see how many times there has been one no vote purely to get something off consent, it has not always been the ETA member.

2447
03:02:35,800 --> 03:02:40,680
In fact, it's much more so not the ETJ member doing it.

2448
03:02:41,000 --> 03:02:45,820
So I just, if they are representing, I think I need that as a clarification because at

2449
03:02:45,820 --> 03:02:47,940
the moment, we operate as though they are not.

2450
03:02:48,440 --> 03:02:51,780
So that's just the question I have to ask before you go to a vote.

2451
03:02:53,060 --> 03:02:59,740
So before we continue, I've heard now that you're interested in combining three and four.

2452
03:03:00,100 --> 03:03:01,700
And maybe that's the way to proceed.

2453
03:03:01,900 --> 03:03:04,660
Maybe somebody makes a motion combining three and four.

2454
03:03:04,660 --> 03:03:09,760
Now I could comment, I haven't heard of it yet, so one thing I think about this volunteer,

2455
03:03:10,080 --> 03:03:13,880
if it's hard to get some ITJ, how hard it's going to be to get some way to show it.

2456
03:03:13,920 --> 03:03:17,020
Just like if they say, well, I'm sorry, you can't vote or anything except that, and

2457
03:03:17,020 --> 03:03:21,220
tonight there's nothing on the ITJ, so you don't get to vote, you don't get to play,

2458
03:03:21,320 --> 03:03:26,240
you don't get to participate, and I don't think that's right when somebody volunteers for this,

2459
03:03:26,240 --> 03:03:32,260
I think we want to involve them. I think to get a volunteer endorse them, as you said, Mark,

2460
03:03:32,260 --> 03:03:38,380
They're not the one that you have now feels like they're representing their feelings,

2461
03:03:38,640 --> 03:03:41,340
not necessarily representing it, they're actually making a judgment call.

2462
03:03:42,180 --> 03:03:46,000
So I don't want to leave that out, and I just feel like some important somebody volunteers

2463
03:03:46,000 --> 03:03:48,640
to the community that they actually get the vote.

2464
03:03:48,840 --> 03:03:53,000
And the other thing is, I don't know why it's such a big deal that they vote on Kerry things,

2465
03:03:53,520 --> 03:04:02,240
because they don't get veto power, they're just one vote, you know, and then the ultimate

2466
03:04:02,240 --> 03:04:10,780
irony of streamlining to 9 to 7 is what was your vote on this one? 4 to 4?

2467
03:04:13,040 --> 03:04:14,600
So while we're debating,

2468
03:04:14,720 --> 03:04:22,300
I mean it's like we can't get 9 there to vote on whether it's 9 to 7 so we got a 4 to 4 tile vote

2469
03:04:22,300 --> 03:04:27,100
when we've got those to have 9 members and we're going to then have a 3 to 3 vote. I mean I didn't even

2470
03:04:27,100 --> 03:04:31,860
actually know honestly that there were 9 members on for my first few months. I didn't go through

2471
03:04:31,860 --> 03:04:34,520
through the school of government, I didn't, I wasn't on it.

2472
03:04:34,640 --> 03:04:40,840
I didn't know because I was sitting here and I never heard a total of nine votes for the first

2473
03:04:40,840 --> 03:04:46,860
four or five times that you presented because we never got nine votes and we can go back and

2474
03:04:46,860 --> 03:04:52,380
look but it was just amazing to me that we had votes that were two to six and five to two

2475
03:04:52,380 --> 03:04:55,940
and I thought they're never added up to nine so I thought well I don't know how many members

2476
03:04:55,940 --> 03:05:01,300
we've got. So I'm much more concerned that we get people there, they participate and we get

2477
03:05:01,880 --> 03:05:04,060
those, whether it's offering it to whatever reason,

2478
03:05:04,200 --> 03:05:05,620
that we get people there to vote,

2479
03:05:05,900 --> 03:05:07,860
then I am what the number is,

2480
03:05:08,340 --> 03:05:10,320
because I just sit going down and down

2481
03:05:10,320 --> 03:05:11,240
if we cut it to seven,

2482
03:05:11,320 --> 03:05:13,680
did we wind up with a two to three vote,

2483
03:05:14,460 --> 03:05:16,120
and I don't want that input,

2484
03:05:16,320 --> 03:05:17,360
I want the most possible.

2485
03:05:17,720 --> 03:05:19,720
So I appreciate the comments here,

2486
03:05:19,780 --> 03:05:21,140
but I'm gonna repeat again.

2487
03:05:21,220 --> 03:05:23,700
I'm hearing, I like this, I don't like this.

2488
03:05:24,120 --> 03:05:25,660
That's telling me we need to vote.

2489
03:05:26,360 --> 03:05:29,320
We're just going down and expressing our opinion.

2490
03:05:29,460 --> 03:05:30,660
We can do that with a vote.

2491
03:05:30,660 --> 03:05:35,720
Well, the whole point of discussion, though, is that you have some, you hear somebody,

2492
03:05:35,800 --> 03:05:36,520
you can put a straw.

2493
03:05:36,860 --> 03:05:38,640
You could just, I just have a straw poll.

2494
03:05:39,060 --> 03:05:43,460
Yeah, that's what I would recommend, rather than voting on the ultimate issue, a straw vote.

2495
03:05:43,520 --> 03:05:48,660
To give us some direction on how to conform the changes to that code.

2496
03:05:49,040 --> 03:05:49,480
Okay.

2497
03:05:50,000 --> 03:05:50,960
Put three, four together.

2498
03:05:51,740 --> 03:05:52,020
All right.

2499
03:05:52,700 --> 03:05:55,880
So, do we have interest in putting three, four together?

2500
03:05:55,960 --> 03:05:56,960
For a straw vote, I would.

2501
03:05:56,960 --> 03:06:04,320
So let's can instead of putting together can we say would that or can you actually say what it means because to me

2502
03:06:04,320 --> 03:06:07,920
They're not necessarily the same. Oh, it was his preliminary question

2503
03:06:07,920 --> 03:06:12,720
We okay putting them together then you can craft how they go together. Yeah, this is asking you do mine

2504
03:06:12,720 --> 03:06:13,600
What are you?

2505
03:06:14,460 --> 03:06:18,200
So we can have several votes is what you're saying on different word different combos

2506
03:06:20,100 --> 03:06:23,480
You guys want to look at three and four together. I knew okay?

2507
03:06:23,480 --> 03:06:26,420
Okay, now let's talk about three and four together

2508
03:06:27,220 --> 03:06:30,780
Yeah, I was just going to make a nice recommendation here, all is that you just take a

2509
03:06:30,780 --> 03:06:35,040
straw poll to see if people are leaning towards, because that's what the conversation

2510
03:06:35,040 --> 03:06:40,960
sounds like, leaning towards reducing the number to seven, but keeping the ETJ of voting

2511
03:06:40,960 --> 03:06:41,340
members.

2512
03:06:41,840 --> 03:06:48,180
So, trying not to make it sound like a motion, who is leaning towards seven members, not?

2513
03:06:48,500 --> 03:06:49,020
Absolutely not.

2514
03:06:49,480 --> 03:06:50,300
Yes, yes.

2515
03:06:50,300 --> 03:06:50,800
I love it.

2516
03:06:51,560 --> 03:06:51,700
Okay.

2517
03:06:52,340 --> 03:06:55,520
So, I think five of us are leaning towards seven members.

2518
03:06:55,520 --> 03:06:57,880
All right, who's not leaning toward it?

2519
03:06:57,880 --> 03:06:59,460
Ed, the two end of the book.

2520
03:06:59,460 --> 03:07:00,620
Look at the book ends.

2521
03:07:00,660 --> 03:07:02,000
We keep you apart for a reason.

2522
03:07:02,400 --> 03:07:04,860
Seven members, five are leaning.

2523
03:07:06,140 --> 03:07:09,540
All right, now, how do you want to tie in the ETA?

2524
03:07:09,880 --> 03:07:11,960
What's your concern about the ETA and seven?

2525
03:07:12,740 --> 03:07:16,920
I would just keep the voting that we already have for it.

2526
03:07:16,940 --> 03:07:18,340
ETA that they vote for everything.

2527
03:07:18,840 --> 03:07:19,680
That's how I would like to say.

2528
03:07:19,680 --> 03:07:24,300
Who is leaning unconditionally that ETA vote on everything?

2529
03:07:25,140 --> 03:07:25,660
I'mаж.

2530
03:07:25,800 --> 03:07:26,100
The audience.

2531
03:07:26,360 --> 03:07:26,700
We're going.

2532
03:07:27,020 --> 03:07:29,540
No, regardless of how many members.

2533
03:07:30,300 --> 03:07:31,160
Because I'm there.

2534
03:07:31,900 --> 03:07:33,760
I don't care how many members they are.

2535
03:07:34,600 --> 03:07:35,320
I just want to,

2536
03:07:35,320 --> 03:07:36,120
I let him bowl and everything.

2537
03:07:36,500 --> 03:07:37,720
I want to go to an easy place .

2538
03:07:37,720 --> 03:07:38,020
Not me.

2539
03:07:38,360 --> 03:07:39,460
To not you?

2540
03:07:39,660 --> 03:07:41,300
No, I, I feel, I'm more helpful.

2541
03:07:41,560 --> 03:07:43,420
I would like to visit you.

2542
03:07:44,160 --> 03:07:44,360
Okay.

2543
03:07:44,840 --> 03:07:46,940
So the majority of counsel is leaning toward

2544
03:07:46,940 --> 03:07:50,000
ETA members should just vote on everything.

2545
03:07:50,580 --> 03:07:52,140
So that kind of answers that question.

2546
03:07:52,140 --> 03:07:55,360
and we could actually make a motion that's prepared, right?

2547
03:07:55,520 --> 03:07:56,220
Well, you're correct.

2548
03:07:56,340 --> 03:07:57,220
We're not changing it.

2549
03:07:57,220 --> 03:07:58,060
That's a lot of change.

2550
03:07:58,120 --> 03:07:58,880
Yeah, that's true.

2551
03:07:59,040 --> 03:08:00,220
That's just keeping that one's the same.

2552
03:08:00,500 --> 03:08:02,820
It's just basically voting on a number four.

2553
03:08:03,080 --> 03:08:06,380
But I feel particularly that ETA should have a voting

2554
03:08:06,380 --> 03:08:08,740
power if we're down, if we reduce our numbers.

2555
03:08:09,020 --> 03:08:09,640
We'll make that clear.

2556
03:08:10,240 --> 03:08:11,720
So it's very comfortable going with it.

2557
03:08:11,740 --> 03:08:13,180
That's on a new vote for the ETA.

2558
03:08:14,220 --> 03:08:15,940
So ETA's not changing.

2559
03:08:17,360 --> 03:08:21,920
And so how are we addressed this lack of everybody

2560
03:08:21,920 --> 03:08:26,000
being there and now we if if we only have seven and a couple of more out more down

2561
03:08:26,000 --> 03:08:30,040
to the top of y'all all comfortable with that is this no alternate still at five

2562
03:08:30,040 --> 03:08:34,520
center recommendations we get from planning installing I've never had a problem

2563
03:08:34,520 --> 03:08:38,660
with four and four that makes the state but the odd numbers okay it's just

2564
03:08:39,300 --> 03:08:43,280
people aren't showing up but we have some standards if you don't show up for a certain

2565
03:08:43,280 --> 03:08:48,280
number of meetings sure you're invited to leave the book and so if I didn't

2566
03:08:48,280 --> 03:08:50,060
And I'm not sure.

2567
03:08:50,700 --> 03:08:52,800
That's what you have conveyed that in that case.

2568
03:08:54,080 --> 03:08:54,220
OK.

2569
03:08:54,600 --> 03:08:56,080
I was just really shocked that people

2570
03:08:56,080 --> 03:08:57,700
care about it if it's a Thai vote.

2571
03:08:58,140 --> 03:08:59,900
No, I'm a place that Thai vote as a concern

2572
03:08:59,900 --> 03:09:01,040
is right here with us.

2573
03:09:01,140 --> 03:09:02,300
And that's not a problem here.

2574
03:09:02,740 --> 03:09:04,700
I think it sends a message for what it's Thai.

2575
03:09:04,760 --> 03:09:08,420
So I don't care about it being a majority minority

2576
03:09:08,420 --> 03:09:09,320
at the Thai.

2577
03:09:10,900 --> 03:09:14,220
The question that we do in other boards,

2578
03:09:14,280 --> 03:09:16,880
so a comment that I'd like feedback on,

2579
03:09:16,880 --> 03:09:25,880
is to deal with attendance besides just the attendance law, attendance rule, is we have

2580
03:09:25,880 --> 03:09:31,540
alternate in other boards and when somebody's absent they're allowed to vote. Is that

2581
03:09:31,540 --> 03:09:33,820
too- Is that too- Is that too- Is that too- Is that too- Is that too- Is that too-

2582
03:09:33,820 --> 03:09:36,900
Is that too big of a deal with the thing that you're able to think about for being a member of the

2583
03:09:36,900 --> 03:09:41,140
board? Could we deal with what we have on the two- I think it's a great idea because we

2584
03:09:41,140 --> 03:09:45,740
have the same problem. Could I say be- But could we just finish these up before-

2585
03:09:47,900 --> 03:09:51,640
And what are we trying to fix by moving it from 9 to 7?

2586
03:09:51,840 --> 03:09:54,380
The research that's been done shows there's no right number.

2587
03:09:54,640 --> 03:09:56,100
Different communities all over the place.

2588
03:09:56,600 --> 03:09:57,480
7, 9, 11, 30.

2589
03:09:57,600 --> 03:09:58,220
What are we trying to fix?

2590
03:09:58,420 --> 03:10:00,200
I mean, it doesn't make a difference.

2591
03:10:00,360 --> 03:10:01,020
I don't think.

2592
03:10:01,520 --> 03:10:02,620
What number we have.

2593
03:10:03,220 --> 03:10:03,960
We have 9.

2594
03:10:04,000 --> 03:10:05,140
I don't even know what I'm adding anymore.

2595
03:10:06,580 --> 03:10:08,440
So I'm going to summarize where we are.

2596
03:10:08,620 --> 03:10:11,240
I mean, I really knew what we were going to do.

2597
03:10:11,500 --> 03:10:12,700
What did we do?

2598
03:10:12,700 --> 03:10:14,300
We're going to revisit on August 9.

2599
03:10:14,300 --> 03:10:24,760
Number three, we've decided to leave it as is, and we're now discussing number four, and the question on the table is not a motion, but the question is, why go from nine to seven?

2600
03:10:25,520 --> 03:10:27,280
What is the process of writing it?

2601
03:10:30,110 --> 03:10:35,190
Staff heard that there were some desire to change the number from nine to some other number.

2602
03:10:35,770 --> 03:10:37,470
I'll leave it for you all to discuss.

2603
03:10:38,150 --> 03:10:38,950
Okay, that's so.

2604
03:10:39,970 --> 03:10:41,570
So as we change our mind.

2605
03:10:41,570 --> 03:10:51,850
As the two recent planning and zoning board liaison, is there a reason that you both might

2606
03:10:51,850 --> 03:10:53,050
think one way or the other?

2607
03:10:55,000 --> 03:11:00,820
Giving what they're talking about and the topics are very much aligned with what we are

2608
03:11:00,820 --> 03:11:01,600
discussing.

2609
03:11:05,200 --> 03:11:12,240
I think it would just eliminate some of the noise at the table and allow the board to better function

2610
03:11:12,240 --> 03:11:16,800
more cohesively given that there's not so many people.

2611
03:11:19,460 --> 03:11:21,560
Sometimes you have too many chiefs, I guess.

2612
03:11:21,840 --> 03:11:26,840
It was something that we passed our staff to look into

2613
03:11:26,840 --> 03:11:29,360
and something that we talked about at the retreat.

2614
03:11:31,080 --> 03:11:35,760
And we feel that the board could maybe function more effectively and efficiently

2615
03:11:35,760 --> 03:11:40,580
with seven members versus nine, that it might be a change that

2616
03:11:40,580 --> 03:11:41,880
First, pursuing.

2617
03:11:43,420 --> 03:11:45,240
So efficiency, if I had summer up, no more,

2618
03:11:45,340 --> 03:11:46,600
whether it was efficiency.

2619
03:11:47,540 --> 03:11:49,200
I think on its face, it just didn't make sense

2620
03:11:49,200 --> 03:11:51,060
why there was nine and seven council members,

2621
03:11:51,320 --> 03:11:52,640
and I don't, I think, Dawn's right.

2622
03:11:52,840 --> 03:11:55,800
It wasn't, wasn't discussed to the same degree

2623
03:11:55,800 --> 03:11:57,100
that the other changes were.

2624
03:11:58,000 --> 03:12:00,580
But it's a reduction of public input, two people.

2625
03:12:00,720 --> 03:12:02,560
That's one way to look at it, in another way,

2626
03:12:02,680 --> 03:12:05,980
is if you're more efficient, then your public input might

2627
03:12:05,980 --> 03:12:06,440
be better.

2628
03:12:06,440 --> 03:12:06,580
I think that's a better.

2629
03:12:06,580 --> 03:12:09,500
a public implant out, but we've actually eliminated complete boards.

2630
03:12:10,660 --> 03:12:12,780
We did away with the whole town center review commission.

2631
03:12:13,420 --> 03:12:14,900
That's a reduction in public input.

2632
03:12:15,500 --> 03:12:17,280
So I appreciate the feedback.

2633
03:12:18,660 --> 03:12:20,360
I mean, it's just easy to say that, guys.

2634
03:12:21,180 --> 03:12:25,120
What about the fact that the meetings are going to be shortened because they're

2635
03:12:25,120 --> 03:12:26,360
doing away with public hearings?

2636
03:12:28,120 --> 03:12:31,200
So the efficiency, we're increasing the efficiency right there, Mark,

2637
03:12:31,360 --> 03:12:31,860
that you don't.

2638
03:12:32,080 --> 03:12:34,140
You get to discuss everything, instead of listening

2639
03:12:34,140 --> 03:12:37,000
to a bunch of citizens come up.

2640
03:12:37,620 --> 03:12:39,360
So we've already made, that makes it more efficient.

2641
03:12:40,080 --> 03:12:42,020
You know, can I ask another question?

2642
03:12:42,540 --> 03:12:43,400
Maybe it has a different way.

2643
03:12:43,540 --> 03:12:45,940
There's a lot of changes that we've been talking about.

2644
03:12:46,040 --> 03:12:47,300
We've been talking about this for a while.

2645
03:12:47,920 --> 03:12:51,460
I wonder if instead of making a whole bunch of changes,

2646
03:12:51,700 --> 03:12:52,680
and I'm not saying a whole bunch,

2647
03:12:52,800 --> 03:12:54,520
because we had four here, and there's other such

2648
03:12:54,520 --> 03:12:57,220
jackets brought up that are interesting and great ideas.

2649
03:12:57,620 --> 03:13:00,060
Maybe we just tweak this a little bit as we go on.

2650
03:13:00,180 --> 03:13:04,060
We do the first one that we've made a decision on as a group,

2651
03:13:04,640 --> 03:13:08,940
And then we see how things going, maybe we tweak it a little bit more down the line.

2652
03:13:09,460 --> 03:13:12,180
We have the opportunity to do that as a council.

2653
03:13:12,280 --> 03:13:14,360
We don't know if future councils might do.

2654
03:13:14,720 --> 03:13:17,400
But maybe we just, you know, we've tweaked one thing,

2655
03:13:17,560 --> 03:13:19,160
which I think is actually a big tweak.

2656
03:13:19,380 --> 03:13:21,560
The public air into a huge, you know,

2657
03:13:21,880 --> 03:13:25,440
I'm all about making small incremental changes and see how they work,

2658
03:13:25,560 --> 03:13:27,040
rather than making two big ones.

2659
03:13:27,460 --> 03:13:28,360
I did owe that.

2660
03:13:28,440 --> 03:13:29,600
I'm cool then.

2661
03:13:30,600 --> 03:13:38,600
So, I'm hearing we're going to lead three and four as is, and one and two come back on August 9th.

2662
03:13:39,280 --> 03:13:40,180
Is that what I'm hearing with you?

2663
03:13:40,180 --> 03:13:41,840
With that consensus that you've heard.

2664
03:13:41,840 --> 03:13:43,840
But there's no motions needed on that.

2665
03:13:43,840 --> 03:13:44,820
Nothing needed tonight.

2666
03:13:44,820 --> 03:13:49,640
We'll bring back revised text for you on August 9th.

2667
03:13:51,860 --> 03:13:52,440
Don't you okay with it?

2668
03:13:52,440 --> 03:13:54,000
Anybody have a strong objection?

2669
03:13:55,420 --> 03:14:01,180
with the, not talking about the seven, you're the one that met the efficiency of this, you guys worked with it not me.

2670
03:14:01,180 --> 03:14:02,500
I'm apparently in the minority.

2671
03:14:03,120 --> 03:14:03,420
I don't know.

2672
03:14:03,500 --> 03:14:03,820
I don't know.

2673
03:14:04,080 --> 03:14:04,700
I don't know.

2674
03:14:04,700 --> 03:14:06,500
It was, you had me about to be like that.

2675
03:14:06,800 --> 03:14:09,080
I think it was, it was on the edge.

2676
03:14:09,100 --> 03:14:12,860
I think there were a couple of us, it was four to three, right, at the table.

2677
03:14:13,120 --> 03:14:16,440
And then several of us were going, and it was a strong pull.

2678
03:14:16,720 --> 03:14:17,920
I mean, if you want to bring it up as motion.

2679
03:14:18,160 --> 03:14:20,420
Yeah, if you want to make a motion, see how it happened.

2680
03:14:20,780 --> 03:14:20,860
Yeah.

2681
03:14:20,860 --> 03:14:23,720
make a motion that we reduce the board membership from 97.

2682
03:14:24,500 --> 03:14:27,160
Do we have to read the motions that are prepared or what?

2683
03:14:28,040 --> 03:14:31,720
We're going to, this would not be making changing the code.

2684
03:14:31,920 --> 03:14:36,100
At this time, it would be, we'd have to act on it and bring back the code.

2685
03:14:36,160 --> 03:14:36,440
Okay.

2686
03:14:36,720 --> 03:14:37,660
Language, but.

2687
03:14:37,840 --> 03:14:38,960
So, we have a motion.

2688
03:14:39,600 --> 03:14:39,940
That's second.

2689
03:14:40,060 --> 03:14:40,560
The second.

2690
03:14:40,920 --> 03:14:41,820
Further discussion.

2691
03:14:43,480 --> 03:14:45,700
All in favor, we need a hand showing here.

2692
03:14:45,740 --> 03:14:47,440
Say, I, raise your hand.

2693
03:14:47,700 --> 03:14:48,460
Those opposed.

2694
03:14:49,660 --> 03:14:50,240
Motion fails.

2695
03:14:50,240 --> 03:14:51,380
I've got…

2696
03:14:52,060 --> 03:14:52,560
I've locked.

2697
03:14:54,420 --> 03:14:55,240
So, we've…

2698
03:14:55,920 --> 03:14:59,880
Once again, what we've done tonight is basically left everything as it is.

2699
03:15:00,000 --> 03:15:17,760
One and two come back for the decision on August 9th, and three and four remain as is. Lisa, I appreciate you putting up with us. We struggle with this. Thank you.

2700
03:15:17,760 --> 03:15:20,820
All right, this is, we now move to

2701
03:15:22,180 --> 03:15:23,300
Hold items.

2702
03:15:24,940 --> 03:15:25,440
The winner,

2703
03:15:26,240 --> 03:15:26,800
Resonning.

2704
03:15:26,800 --> 03:15:27,900
The winner, expansion,

2705
03:15:28,080 --> 03:15:28,840
Resonning, 17,

2706
03:15:29,560 --> 03:15:30,120
RZ31,

2707
03:15:30,800 --> 03:15:32,220
Assistant Planning Director,

2708
03:15:32,500 --> 03:15:34,180
DeBranon will present the report

2709
03:15:34,180 --> 03:15:35,820
and council may take action.

2710
03:15:36,580 --> 03:15:37,400
Thank you.

2711
03:15:37,520 --> 03:15:38,880
I'll be very brief with this,

2712
03:15:38,920 --> 03:15:40,160
but I have more detailed slides.

2713
03:15:40,520 --> 03:15:41,560
If you would like them,

2714
03:15:41,640 --> 03:15:42,580
this is a request to

2715
03:15:42,580 --> 03:15:43,400
Reson,

2716
03:15:43,680 --> 03:15:45,960
a portion of the May Fair Plaza Shopping Center.

2717
03:15:45,960 --> 03:15:52,580
were a Carolina Potteries currently located. There was a mix of zoning designations on the property,

2718
03:15:53,580 --> 03:15:59,920
commercial, an existing preliminary development plan. The applicant is proposing preliminary

2719
03:15:59,920 --> 03:16:04,500
development plan with a retirement community and this is to living retirement community.

2720
03:16:04,940 --> 03:16:10,880
Staff's recommendation was for approval. With concerns noted about whether or not this would

2721
03:16:10,880 --> 03:16:15,900
really fulfill the promise of a mixed use center, whether or not this was going to meet all

2722
03:16:15,900 --> 03:16:22,220
our goals for this gateway feature into downtown Kerry, but we felt that the positive

2723
03:16:22,220 --> 03:16:27,400
aspects outweighed the concerns, and then the planning and zoning board also had a recommendation

2724
03:16:27,400 --> 03:16:32,520
for approval by a vote of 8 to 0. And again, I have more details if you'd like them and

2725
03:16:32,520 --> 03:16:36,440
Mr. Evangelista is here to tell you about the board deliberation.

2726
03:16:39,380 --> 03:16:41,540
Well, there's not much to really say.

2727
03:16:41,740 --> 03:16:43,420
There was 8 to 0.

2728
03:16:44,200 --> 03:16:46,060
The same concerns that Deborah just mentioned.

2729
03:16:46,240 --> 03:16:48,540
It's not quite mixed use, but on balance,

2730
03:16:50,000 --> 03:16:52,780
it was enthusiastically supported by everyone.

2731
03:16:53,800 --> 03:16:54,560
Thank you.

2732
03:16:54,740 --> 03:16:56,360
Mr. Avison, this one's yours.

2733
03:16:56,640 --> 03:16:57,200
You pulled this one.

2734
03:16:57,280 --> 03:16:58,360
I get to do the next one.

2735
03:16:58,440 --> 03:16:58,700
Okay.

2736
03:16:59,400 --> 03:17:02,000
Yes, I asked to have it pulled because I am not enthusiastically

2737
03:17:02,000 --> 03:17:03,300
supporting it.

2738
03:17:04,740 --> 03:17:07,280
I'm looking out at the entirety of our community.

2739
03:17:07,280 --> 03:17:12,600
I think we have fewer opportunities for dynamic mixed use

2740
03:17:12,600 --> 03:17:15,700
development than we would even like.

2741
03:17:17,120 --> 03:17:18,920
And while Glent Air is an excellent community,

2742
03:17:19,360 --> 03:17:22,500
and they have a good asset to provide to people.

2743
03:17:22,580 --> 03:17:25,440
I don't know that this is the right site for that.

2744
03:17:26,740 --> 03:17:30,680
And my preference would be to have kept this available

2745
03:17:30,680 --> 03:17:33,880
for some other opportunity for mixed use development.

2746
03:17:35,620 --> 03:17:44,640
With that, I know I probably stand alone on this, so I won't be making a motion, but I wanted to vote against it rather than having it on consent.

2747
03:17:44,860 --> 03:17:48,320
Okay, thank you. Other comments, questions or a motion?

2748
03:17:48,460 --> 03:17:55,020
I think a motion that we adopt a statement of consistency as attached to the staff report and approve Glen Air expansion 17 or AZ 31.

2749
03:17:55,300 --> 03:17:57,860
Second, if there's a motion, second, Mr. Smith, do you have something?

2750
03:17:58,080 --> 03:18:02,380
Yeah, I mean, I don't think all hope is lost.

2751
03:18:02,380 --> 03:18:11,540
down from on the rest of the property, but I do respect and understand that there's a lot.

2752
03:18:12,520 --> 03:18:18,120
At the same time, breaking up a, I don't know what you call a retirement bill if you're

2753
03:18:18,120 --> 03:18:23,920
whatever, having a different place as, you know, this is one of those where, you know,

2754
03:18:23,920 --> 03:18:26,540
I want to go with the percentages, but you know what they are.

2755
03:18:26,540 --> 03:18:31,000
one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, but I still think there's an opportunity.

2756
03:18:31,400 --> 03:18:40,060
That is a center that is begging for redevelopment, and the problem, maybe you got a couple of long term leases there.

2757
03:18:40,980 --> 03:18:44,120
And that's what we have all over where we have these redevelopment opportunities.

2758
03:18:45,560 --> 03:18:55,980
There's stuck with a couple of other opportunities, but I think having the, the, the, they're there will not hurt the opportunity of an investor

2759
03:18:55,980 --> 03:18:59,800
that wants to come in and make the rest of that something special.

2760
03:19:00,120 --> 03:19:06,460
Yeah, and I would have, I would have liked the applicant to come in with something vertically mixed where there were, was,

2761
03:19:06,460 --> 03:19:13,640
um, doctor's offices and retail on the first floor, really kind of tied into the spirit of downtown,

2762
03:19:14,160 --> 03:19:21,120
with a residential above that first floor, you know, amenities could serve the population that lives above it.

2763
03:19:21,120 --> 03:19:29,560
we could still have that continuation of excitement going on with those mixed uses without having

2764
03:19:29,560 --> 03:19:35,460
just one area just completely consumed by residential. So that's my preference, but I respect

2765
03:19:35,460 --> 03:19:41,260
everybody else having a different opinion. I do think the hope for the second half to be mixed is

2766
03:19:41,260 --> 03:19:48,400
good. And if it weren't so close to downtown for these residents, I would leave more toward

2767
03:19:48,400 --> 03:19:53,340
as Robinson, but I do believe that it actually could have more seniors this close to be able

2768
03:19:53,340 --> 03:19:57,840
to walk the community downtown is a positive place and I don't want them. I think they

2769
03:19:57,840 --> 03:20:01,620
need to use their other facility with all the meeting rooms and everything I want them to

2770
03:20:01,620 --> 03:20:04,540
expand where they are and not have to go somewhere else.

2771
03:20:04,740 --> 03:20:09,940
Other comments, questions? We have a motion to approve. I'll in favor of the motion, please say aye.

2772
03:20:10,260 --> 03:20:18,240
Aye, pose? No. Motion carries six to one. Thank you, Miss Granan. You get the next one too.

2773
03:20:18,240 --> 03:20:28,120
So the second item is the North Harrison Jose Hotel 16, R.E. Z. 15 and once again, you'll give the report.

2774
03:20:28,920 --> 03:20:34,320
Okay. This is property located in a commercial mixed use center approximately 7.2 acres.

2775
03:20:34,780 --> 03:20:39,400
This was first presented at a neighborhood meeting back in early 2016.

2776
03:20:40,200 --> 03:20:46,340
A lot of neighborhood opposition, they were proposing 350 rooms, three buildings, eight stories,

2777
03:20:46,340 --> 03:20:50,920
These champion tree removal, a lot of concerns, a lot of questions about traffic.

2778
03:20:51,640 --> 03:20:57,640
The applicants listened to the citizens' concerns and came back with a much reduced plan.

2779
03:20:57,860 --> 03:21:01,380
They reduced it from 350 down to 250 rooms.

2780
03:21:01,880 --> 03:21:06,580
Reduce the building height, move some of the taller buildings away from the adjacent property.

2781
03:21:07,160 --> 03:21:12,600
When you first saw it, they only had a 100 foot setback adjacent to the neighborhood to

2782
03:21:12,600 --> 03:21:18,280
West, and they came back with a 250-foot building setback, so there was a second public hearing

2783
03:21:18,280 --> 03:21:20,560
before the planning and zoning board.

2784
03:21:22,540 --> 03:21:26,940
There were also elements of the plan that I wanted to point out the applicant is making

2785
03:21:26,940 --> 03:21:32,020
a stub to the south, which is a requirement for the land development ordinance, and then one

2786
03:21:32,020 --> 03:21:37,240
of the biggest issues that you've heard about is the stub to the adjacent property, which

2787
03:21:37,240 --> 03:21:40,460
is a portion of the arboretum, but under separate ownership.

2788
03:21:41,200 --> 03:21:42,400
It's an O&I parcel.

2789
03:21:43,300 --> 03:21:47,980
There's dispute between this property owner and the staff about whether or not this connection

2790
03:21:47,980 --> 03:21:48,780
is required.

2791
03:21:49,060 --> 03:21:50,780
So that's one of the biggest issues.

2792
03:21:51,340 --> 03:21:58,040
Also the applicant did agree to address some suggestions that were in the traffic study to

2793
03:21:58,040 --> 03:22:05,840
provide a 100 foot long stacking lane for southbound access into the site and also to provide

2794
03:22:05,840 --> 03:22:12,060
a bulbow on Harrison Avenue opposite Montobello Drive that would help to facilitate

2795
03:22:12,060 --> 03:22:18,220
you turn movement. What is a bulbow you might ask? It's going to be opposite Montobello

2796
03:22:18,220 --> 03:22:24,160
Drive and again would help to facilitate you turn movement, which is already allowed on

2797
03:22:24,160 --> 03:22:29,980
Harrison Avenue. Great deal of concern about that, but we do already have some of these existing

2798
03:22:29,980 --> 03:22:36,240
along Harris and Avenue. So they are legal. Is it the best solution? No. The best solution

2799
03:22:36,240 --> 03:22:41,480
would be for the property owners to work together and be able to find a way to have full

2800
03:22:41,480 --> 03:22:47,580
movement in and out of this site, but there's some differences of opinion. So it is a conundrum.

2801
03:22:48,720 --> 03:22:52,860
Is it something that could be rectified at the time of development plan possibly?

2802
03:22:53,300 --> 03:22:56,760
But we just don't know that yet. We don't have all those answers.

2803
03:22:57,600 --> 03:23:02,520
There is a recorded easement to this property, this adjacent property, and there is a zoning

2804
03:23:02,520 --> 03:23:07,660
condition that calls for connectivity, but again, as you heard from the representative

2805
03:23:07,660 --> 03:23:12,840
for this property owner, some disputes that we're still trying to resolve and figure out

2806
03:23:12,840 --> 03:23:14,900
how they would be addressed as we go forward.

2807
03:23:16,820 --> 03:23:22,140
So, this is the zoning condition that I mentioned from a 2005 rezoning case and the

2808
03:23:22,140 --> 03:23:23,420
courted easement.

2809
03:23:25,180 --> 03:23:30,980
So staff's recommendation was for approval with noted concerns as we described that we

2810
03:23:30,980 --> 03:23:35,780
don't have all those answers yet, but we, you know, would continue to work on those and

2811
03:23:35,780 --> 03:23:40,540
address those at the time of development plan of approval and review assuming the

2812
03:23:40,540 --> 03:23:41,400
rezoning's approved.

2813
03:23:42,020 --> 03:23:46,460
And Mr. Evangelista will be happy to speak to the planning and zoning boards deliberation.

2814
03:23:48,420 --> 03:23:57,040
traffic. Both the common in and out with that's under contested at this point, let's say.

2815
03:23:57,520 --> 03:24:04,600
That was a big deal. The bulb out in the traffic mitigations, again, not optimal, but they meet.

2816
03:24:04,600 --> 03:24:07,920
I don't want to say consistency with the plan, because we were still under the old rules at that time.

2817
03:24:08,340 --> 03:24:11,480
But they meet those kind of obligations.

2818
03:24:11,480 --> 03:24:17,480
I will point out that this is one of the times where the way we do business is vastly different than yours.

2819
03:24:18,200 --> 03:24:24,200
You can look at what was originally put together and how they've modified things in response to public content.

2820
03:24:24,340 --> 03:24:28,940
We look at a snapshot and whether or not that snapshot is consistent.

2821
03:24:29,740 --> 03:24:34,320
And this one we found consistent with the exception of the traffic issues.

2822
03:24:34,720 --> 03:24:39,320
But none of those issues were enough to make anyone want to not support the application.

2823
03:24:40,000 --> 03:24:41,600
Thank you, Mr. Evangelista.

2824
03:24:42,220 --> 03:24:44,740
So I pulled this one, and I don't know if I stand alone,

2825
03:24:45,160 --> 03:24:46,660
but let me tell you my concerns,

2826
03:24:47,560 --> 03:24:50,080
for a quarter of a century of driven this section

2827
03:24:50,080 --> 03:24:53,160
or rev, and it's scary in the morning.

2828
03:24:53,420 --> 03:24:55,380
Now we have visitors at this hotel

2829
03:24:56,000 --> 03:24:58,300
that they're not going to downtown Kerry,

2830
03:24:58,400 --> 03:25:00,680
they're going to RTP or Raleigh,

2831
03:25:00,960 --> 03:25:04,260
and they need to go left, but they have to go right

2832
03:25:04,260 --> 03:25:07,520
and make a U-turn in front of all that morning traffic,

2833
03:25:07,520 --> 03:25:11,040
which, in my opinion, is dangerous.

2834
03:25:11,900 --> 03:25:17,160
Yes, there are new terms existing today on a Harrison Avenue,

2835
03:25:17,680 --> 03:25:19,640
but they are not forced, they're optional.

2836
03:25:20,380 --> 03:25:24,360
This forces visitors to make a new turn

2837
03:25:24,360 --> 03:25:25,940
to get to where they're going.

2838
03:25:26,460 --> 03:25:29,420
In my mind, that's bad planning on our part.

2839
03:25:29,620 --> 03:25:33,600
We should insist that they have a safe option

2840
03:25:33,600 --> 03:25:34,840
if they want that option.

2841
03:25:34,840 --> 03:25:38,200
and you can't force them to take that option.

2842
03:25:38,700 --> 03:25:44,740
So I fear that this will result in bad things happening.

2843
03:25:44,980 --> 03:25:46,620
And that's my biggest concern.

2844
03:25:47,220 --> 03:25:51,540
Having said all that, I know that there's discussions

2845
03:25:51,540 --> 03:25:56,940
planned, maybe, or confirmed, don't know,

2846
03:25:57,280 --> 03:26:02,480
between the interested parties to the north and staff

2847
03:26:02,480 --> 03:26:08,700
to discuss this. And if I'm standing alone, it doesn't matter. If it concerns other

2848
03:26:08,700 --> 03:26:14,160
council members, that information may be important. It is for me to support it. I would

2849
03:26:14,160 --> 03:26:20,420
have to give the visitors their an option to go into the arboretum and not force them

2850
03:26:20,420 --> 03:26:26,380
to do a U-turn if they're trying to go to rally or RTP. So that's my concern. That's why

2851
03:26:26,380 --> 03:26:28,820
that I can't support it the way it's proposed.

2852
03:26:29,580 --> 03:26:34,780
And if there's a potential for meeting or if a meeting has been planned,

2853
03:26:35,660 --> 03:26:39,120
I would recommend that we table it just to hear the outcome of that.

2854
03:26:39,200 --> 03:26:40,520
Maybe the outcome is the same.

2855
03:26:40,600 --> 03:26:42,420
No, we're what we heard tonight.

2856
03:26:43,160 --> 03:26:45,140
But that was the representative and not the owner.

2857
03:26:45,280 --> 03:26:47,220
And I think we're going to hear from the owner.

2858
03:26:47,620 --> 03:26:48,400
If I'm not mistaken.

2859
03:26:49,100 --> 03:26:50,600
Mr. Stegu, do you want to speak to any of that?

2860
03:26:50,720 --> 03:26:55,700
Yeah, I just, with the concerns that were highlighted by Mr.

2861
03:26:55,700 --> 03:27:02,940
and earlier at a conversation regarding that we would be interested in hearing those in person.

2862
03:27:03,640 --> 03:27:07,600
Certainly didn't give any indication that it's going to, that the town will take any action,

2863
03:27:07,960 --> 03:27:12,080
or it could affect the outcome at all, but simply allowing the opportunity to be heard.

2864
03:27:13,540 --> 03:27:20,400
I will support gathering additional information, but I wanted to be very clear that connectivity is a paramount importance to me.

2865
03:27:20,400 --> 03:27:27,660
and in particular at this location, because all of the area has a lot to gain from having

2866
03:27:27,660 --> 03:27:33,340
connectivity between this site over to the arboretum, and it supports the theories that

2867
03:27:33,340 --> 03:27:38,180
we stand by. So I'm very open to having additional conversations, but I want to be clear

2868
03:27:38,180 --> 03:27:45,480
that connectivity is important. Other thoughts, so that I think the options are proved

2869
03:27:45,480 --> 03:27:47,480
and I, or table, to get more information.

2870
03:27:48,380 --> 03:27:50,180
Well, the only question I have.

2871
03:27:51,360 --> 03:27:52,980
And I think I got a letter today.

2872
03:27:53,120 --> 03:27:54,540
Did everybody else get a letter?

2873
03:27:54,620 --> 03:27:58,440
I thought it said, they want to have connectivity now.

2874
03:27:59,020 --> 03:28:00,660
I didn't think I read it.

2875
03:28:01,340 --> 03:28:03,140
Busy Thursday, I already read it.

2876
03:28:03,160 --> 03:28:03,880
There are different parties.

2877
03:28:04,600 --> 03:28:07,520
The arboretum management would like connect connectivity,

2878
03:28:07,980 --> 03:28:10,280
but really creek partners who owns a sliver of a lot.

2879
03:28:10,280 --> 03:28:11,080
Oh, no.

2880
03:28:12,220 --> 03:28:20,720
And then I understand the versity of your combat because we need to, okay, never mind.

2881
03:28:21,800 --> 03:28:22,840
Those are three options.

2882
03:28:23,120 --> 03:28:30,320
I think tabling to allow those discussions to happen and help unconfused me as a good thing.

2883
03:28:30,960 --> 03:28:31,620
Is that a question?

2884
03:28:32,040 --> 03:28:35,940
Well, if we tablet, can we put a table with a date?

2885
03:28:35,940 --> 03:28:45,980
I indicated to the developer today that it would be our intent on putting it on the next regular council meeting,

2886
03:28:46,780 --> 03:28:53,050
unless some information came to light that I'm currently not aware of.

2887
03:28:54,060 --> 03:29:00,280
So instead of just keeping it open ended that we'll let you know when it'll be back on.

2888
03:29:00,960 --> 03:29:02,920
Because as of right now our staff work is complete.

2889
03:29:03,520 --> 03:29:09,220
And so we're operating under that, but we want to just give an opportunity for this to be heard,

2890
03:29:09,620 --> 03:29:13,780
understand it better, and then proceed from there.

2891
03:29:13,980 --> 03:29:16,300
But the plan would be to have it beyond the next regular schedule.

2892
03:29:16,540 --> 03:29:17,180
I can't remember the date.

2893
03:29:17,400 --> 03:29:18,720
I guess 23rd.

2894
03:29:18,720 --> 03:29:19,140
23rd.

2895
03:29:19,460 --> 03:29:19,920
So that's 20th.

2896
03:29:20,220 --> 03:29:25,300
Yeah, I'll make a motion table with that date.

2897
03:29:25,500 --> 03:29:26,220
That's 23rd.

2898
03:29:26,240 --> 03:29:27,100
There's second.

2899
03:29:27,820 --> 03:29:28,340
Discussion?

2900
03:29:29,560 --> 03:29:36,140
I will support the motion to table, I just want to add that after this project has been going on for two years or more.

2901
03:29:37,580 --> 03:29:45,140
In for us to be getting information at the 11th hour, they've suggested we now table it is incredibly disappointing to me.

2902
03:29:47,120 --> 03:29:55,420
So I hope that when it comes back next month we have all the information that we need to make a decision one way or the other.

2903
03:29:56,080 --> 03:29:59,200
I do not like getting information at the 11th hour.

2904
03:29:59,460 --> 03:29:59,960
I'm sorry.

2905
03:30:04,000 --> 03:30:11,320
That's inexcusable to me. This has been going on for two years. This has not been a surprise to anyone.

2906
03:30:11,700 --> 03:30:18,700
I agree with that. I agree. I was upset about it. I don't have to read those when you're busy working during the day.

2907
03:30:19,620 --> 03:30:22,700
Okay, there's a motion to table all in favor, please say aye.

2908
03:30:23,220 --> 03:30:23,420
Aye.

2909
03:30:23,980 --> 03:30:29,840
As opposed to unanimous table to August 23rd's council meeting.

2910
03:30:30,740 --> 03:30:33,080
That concludes the regular agenda.

2911
03:30:33,340 --> 03:30:34,820
We're ready to go in the closed session.

2912
03:30:35,040 --> 03:30:36,140
Now we've entertained a motion.

2913
03:30:36,680 --> 03:30:38,040
So we are doing close.

2914
03:30:39,220 --> 03:30:40,020
We're not.

2915
03:30:40,060 --> 03:30:40,460
Yeah, we do.

2916
03:30:40,820 --> 03:30:41,340
We're doing.

2917
03:30:41,340 --> 03:30:42,100
Yes, we are.

2918
03:30:42,480 --> 03:30:43,880
We're going to recommend that.

2919
03:30:44,040 --> 03:30:44,400
Okay.

2920
03:30:44,400 --> 03:30:44,840
I would do.

2921
03:30:44,940 --> 03:30:49,320
Presented G.S. 1, 4, e, 3, 3, 18, 11, 11, 11, 3.

2922
03:30:49,320 --> 03:30:53,340
I'm either with all the closed sessions to consult with attorneys employed by Andrew

2923
03:30:53,340 --> 03:30:58,180
Regene by the time in order to preserve the attorney claim privilege, between the attorneys

2924
03:30:58,180 --> 03:31:02,540
on the town, to bring the disclosure of information that is made privileged or confidential,

2925
03:31:03,080 --> 03:31:04,940
which G.S. 1, 4, 3, 18, 10.

2926
03:31:05,000 --> 03:31:07,300
Second, there's a motion in the second discussion.

2927
03:31:07,700 --> 03:31:13,160
All in favor, please say, on any opposed, motion carried unanimously or we're going to the closed

2928
03:31:13,160 --> 03:31:13,580
Thank you.

2929
04:00:00,000 --> 04:00:00,760
Council

2930
04:11:58,900 --> 04:12:21,540
member meeting and council member George has a special announcement. Yes, while we were debating, we had another grandchild. So we have number 13 was born, Tristan Kent was born, seven pounds and something, they got a picture and so with that I'd like to motion to adjourn so I can go call the parents.

2931
04:12:21,540 --> 04:12:22,540
Thank you.

2932
04:12:23,100 --> 04:12:27,300
There's a motion and the second discussion, congratulations, Kenyne.

2933
04:12:27,860 --> 04:12:29,260
All in favor please say aye.

2934
04:12:29,660 --> 04:12:29,900
Aye.

2935
04:12:30,220 --> 04:12:30,280
Aye.

2936
04:12:30,280 --> 04:12:30,780
Opposed?

2937
04:12:30,920 --> 04:12:33,440
Motion carries unanimously and we're adjourned.

2938
04:13:16,230 --> 04:13:17,490
Production of Kiri TV.

2939
04:13:17,850 --> 04:13:20,150
The visit for time and please website for time and Kiri.