That's weird. Supposed to auto adjust.
No, they're reconstructing their entrance a little bit. They just
constructed. They did it wrong. It doesn't meet ADA requirements.
I'll tell you wrong.
You're good.
We just have it celebrating Maya. Yeah. Yeah.
I'm bringing my daughter
I talk
about is he he
uh he texted me
he was um no I
can't he was flying
at 2:00. No,
actually just getting out of the city. We'll have time before work session,
but he was going through all the construction, so
Well, I think Tammy's presentation and Zach are pretty. Yes, they are.
Maybe for a little bit. Yeah. Well, our first item we don't have.
Yeah, we have to hold
One thing I didn't think would be
I
didn't
always adding
came from this morning and closed for like three hours. Really? I texted I
texted I was like, "How the hell it's going to open?" But I have my computer.
So apparently just an accident. Just an
accident. You're right here. You're right here.
Um take your time. We're
So Chris McInness reported to me at the TPPR inner mountain transportation
planning region meeting last Friday that a construction project on a major
reconstruction of Glenwood Canyon this year is going to have
24hour holes. Wow. In the canyon. In the canyon. like anticipated holes or
random. Well, like I certain they're going to put out information to the
public just like they do on the spring project. Um, but I mean that long and
behold on I7 major issues.
So anyway, morning Stacy, we ready? All right, everyone. This is calling to
order. It's calling to
order. Frisco Town Council work session for April 22nd. First up
on the agenda today is
yes the US Forest Service backyard public comment letter from the town. So,
I'm hoping that you've all had a chance to review the draft um that was in your
packet. Um this is the second time this would be the second time that we would
be submitting comments to uh the US Forest Service process that's going on
that was presented to you uh at two meetings ago.
Um so the public comment period goes through
um the date is actually there's actually two different deadlines. One it depends
on what you're commenting on. The comments that we're making follow the
first deadline but it is the deadline is before your next meeting. So, we'll be
able to get this in front of you so that you could indicate to the mayor whether
it's okay for him to sign this and turn it in in its current form. If you'd like
revisions to that, anything that you'd like to
discuss. So, I I read it. I have nothing to add or take away from it. Anyone
else?
The consensus is to Tom that all good and we I'll let the mayor know that you
said that. Okay. So, you're already at this. Okay. So, no replies needed to the
mayor.
Okay. That's awesome. Next uh next up on the agenda
uh we do have we do have two new council members with us and uh here today with
us is uh Emmy Tanoi who I think is when I went through this gave the best
training presentation I've had as far as some very interesting
details and her topic tonight is going to be CERS elected officials on boarding
training and Uh, I think dad, you'll probably add some comments at some
point, too. Please do. Tammy, please go ahead. Thank you very
much. And good afternoon, everybody. Thank you so much for having me back. I
guess it's only been what, a year? About a year. Yeah, a year. Yeah. So, I I
really appreciate the opportunity to come back and especially to meet the two
new members of the council. How long have you guys been in this position now?
about two months. Two months. Would you say that third meeting? How's that? Is
it everything you ever dreamed that would be and more? We we unfortunately
they they hopped in right at some really heavy times of some decision making. So,
we've had some very long meetings uh for them and uh this one's a little lighter
tonight. So, hope that would be the case. Yeah. And
the other two, um, how long have you guys been on the council? Probably be
going my second year. Okay. Actually, probably around this time. Yes, I'm
starting my second year. Came here second year, but when I was on 2014,
2018. Okay, great. Good to know. Yeah. Um, and you know, Fed was talking about
litigation around your charter and it reminded me that I owe him an
apology because I actually wrote that charter back in the day. And I have to
admit that I didn't really much about that particular part of the charter. You
know, it's one of those things where you just borrow it from somewhere else and
you're like, "Sounds good to me, right?" And and then and you get told it means
more than your daughter did way alone. So yeah, and I I think you know it's
okay. It was an okay result at the end of the day, but it was definitely
shocking. The first time I heard that all matters really does mean all
matters. I'm like should have been a little more careful but yeah, it's
worked out well for us. Yeah. And it's a good charter. I will say it's one that
I'm very very proud of. And uh I happen to know that you know with imitation
being this dearest form of flattery that the fact that kind of somewhat
replicated itself I I think it means that it's a good charter.
in Hayden among other places. Curious where you know you know you one of your
close neighbors has a very close version of it and changes and some I think
fairly vital parts but one of your close neighbors has that chart of two. So
today we're going to talk about uh five lesser known things about the elected
officials job and you can tell me whether I'm on the mark or or not in
terms of what I do with some of the lesser known aspects of the job. Um but
first of all congratulations to you on your appointment and to you all on your
continued service to the the town. Um it it really is a wonderful thing when
citizens step up to serve in their communities because it's not something
you have to do on jury duty and it involves a lot of work and some of it is
thankless and it involves a lot of late nights. So you know the fact that you're
stepping up to lead your community is really a a wonderful thing. Uh we do at
CERSA have some resources for elected officials. So please check out our
website at cersa.org. org. Uh we were also very much instrumental in writing
that publication that is before you and we'll be refreshing that I think in the
next year or two. But for now I think it's still a a pretty legit source of
sort of you know plain English um talk about liability areas and how you can
increase uh your effectiveness from a governance standpoint.
So just a little bit about CERSA because sometimes I'll get through an hour of
talking about you know what we're going to talk about and then the only question
I'll get is and what is CERSA again? I just want to say that CERSA is
actually your public energy selfinsurance.
Frisco and the other communities that belong to CERSA actually created CERSA
by intergovernmental agreement to be uh essentially your insurance provider. So
among other things we provide property and liability coverage to uh the 90% of
cities and towns throughout Colorado that are CERSA members. And so many
times when there are claims or litigation against the town, they do
trigger coverage. And so we become an involved partner with the town to uh
ensure a resolution that is legally sound and works uh from your standpoint
as well as ours. So that's what we do at Starstone. Also, we very much view the
governing body as sort of at the very top uh not in terms of just, you know,
being literally at the very top of the org chart, but really being a critical
part of risk management. I think you all set the tone for the community as a
whole. And so whatever tone you're setting can really have consequences
from a liability standpoint. You know, when things are dysfunctional in a
community, that tends to reveal itself in many ways, but in part in the form of
claims. Would you back me up on that? I know you've had your share of troubled
communities that, you know, have been fortunate to have you um you know,
working with them from a standpoint, but isn't it true? Absolutely. The better
the council works together, the better the community work,
the better the whole team um in in the town work as well.
So today's topics and uh please take a quick look at the this topic list and
tell me if there are any other topics that you would like to cover or if you
think of any as we're we're talking please uh let me know because I think
between dad and myself we'll be able to cover them. though. Number one, in terms
of things you might not have thought about in terms of your positions, uh the
need to consider private communications to be mostly a thing of the past. Maybe
that's just a tad exaggerated, but I think it's pretty close to the mark that
you know the transparency laws that govern your communications as well as
the expectations of the citizen uh does mean uh that private communications
really um need to be done very very cautiously if at all. And we'll talk in
detail about each of these. Uh here's another one. You weren't just elected to
be a legislator at the municipal level, you are now a judge, too.
Congratulations, judges. Um, did that surprise you a little bit or were you
familiar enough with sort of what goes on uh on the town council that you were,
you know, you weren't shocked to discover, hey, I have a quasi judicial
role now. That surprised me. I learned that. Yeah. Yeah. And the rules of
engagement, as we'll discuss, are like radically different between your
legislative role and your quasi judicial role. Social media. Who's on social
media? Well, who's not on social media? Right. I have not
overw primarily because uh I have
dogs. They insist on maintaining a presence on social media and they do
require my assistance.
That's pretty much it for me. Um next you're operating at high altitude now
literally of course but also uh in the sense of where you are organization and
we'll talk a little bit about that and then sort of related to that um
personnel matters you've got people to handle that now uh and so there are some
dimensions around that. So let's talk about transparency
and open meetings and other laws that govern your communications. um as a
council member. So, we've got the Colorado open meetings law and it does
apply to all meetings of the governing body. So, this is a public meeting even
though it's a work session and it's governed by the open meetings law. Uh
your boards, commissions, committees, etc. are likewise governed by the same
set of laws. And I know we were talking earlier
about well is there a quorum? Right? there were three uh for for a few
minutes there. Um and the open meetings law actually applies to three or more
members of a governing body if it's a seven member governing body or a quorum
whichever is less. So even though you wouldn't have had a quorum with three
for the you know transaction in business this law still would have been in
effect. So you know three is the magic number when you have a seven member
governing body. Also, executive sessions. Have you
guys been involved in any executive sessions to this point?
We introduced that to him right away. Okay, good. Super duper important
because those are like the only very limited circumstances when you can have
a discussion away from the public eye. And so, not only are there some, you
know, pretty strict procedural requirements, I call them the Miranda
warning, um, but also some substantive
requirements in terms of the very limited number of topics that can be
discussed in executive session and also some requirements around, you know, what
happens should the discussion, you know, as human discussions will kind of start
to stray away from those. limited authorized profit. So, it's an
area where you really kind of have to hue to the straight and narrow and the
the letter of the executive session law as well as the the spirit because it is
easy to to get into trouble. And uh at CERSO we've seen some litigation around
uh governing bodies that uh played fast and loose with executive sessions then
became publicly embarrassed as a result. So uh it is an area where caution is
very important. Also serial meetings have become kind of a focus of scrutiny
and uh litigation. What's a serial meeting? So if you were to say to
yourself, well, three is the magic number, right? And this law kicks in. So
why don't we just have meetings two by two by two by two until we cover all
seven of us? Does that sound like an appropriate thing to
do? I go back way before. And so back in the day, I was like, well, okay, it's
not three, so go ahead. Right? But when you think about it, having serial
meetings 2 by two, even if it doesn't necessarily violate the letter of the
law, does it kind of play fast and loose with the spirit of the law? Right. I
think it does. Have Have there been places that have gotten in trouble in
trouble with that? Yes. Okay. Yes, there there have been and you know I don't
know that we yet have any definitive um court rulings on it but definitely
judges have frowned upon it and I think rightfully so and is that kind of if
if two by twos a decision has been made and that decision then doesn't
get also publicly discussed and decided. Yeah. especially if that is the case.
But really, you know, the ML doesn't just say decisions have to be public. It
says have to be public, right? And so for for those reasons, I would
discourage at this point in my career uh the holding of 2 by two serial meetings.
It it it just it doesn't look good. And one of these days, somebody's going to
make that law in a definitive way or the legislators are going to step in and say
no more of this. Let's see. Non-meating
communications. So, email text, right? Social media.
If more than one of you were to appear on on the same place on social media and
you were to start discussing public business, right? You can see how that
could implicate the open meeting law, right? You're having a discussion and
there's the magic number. Same thing with email. This is where it kind of
starts to feel a little non-intuitive, right? Because you're like, email is
writing. It's not a meeting, but the OML actually explicitly says emails can be a
meeting, right? And that's because as long as you're hitting reply all, right,
you're having a public discussion even though you're typing it rather than, you
know, speaking it. And so that is also problematic. Texting uh same issue. uh
and so texting uh can equally implicate the open meetings law where this has
gotten a few people embarrassed and I don't know that there's been any
litigation around it but people were discovered uh council members were
discovered to be texting one another on the
deis during public meetings doing their little private commentary about that
Is private commentary about a public meeting still a discussion of public
business? Well, it it sure is, right? Though that's also not cool. And again,
one of the lesser known ways in which you can kind of get into trouble. I
mean, I remember u most municipalities and counties dealt with this or public
bodies during CO. When we first really went to a lot of electronic meetings and
it included your legislative body, it was properly noticed, but people weren't
used to being in that electronic meeting and not being able to text their
colleagues. And we had to we first discovered it, then we had to do
something about it. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. that would kind
of naturally happen if you're kind of all in separate places and can't do
that you might be doing. So the thing about electronic communications that's
especially kind of scary is that yeah it implicates the open meetings law but it
also implicates of course the open records act because the written
communications right and so the open records act is another transparency law
that basically says any document pertaining to public business can be
requested by the public right any member of the public can say, "Hey, I would
like to see all of your emails about um public business for the last two
months." And would clerk's office have to cough that
up, right? Um would you think you could say, "Well,
I'll just use my official town email for that purpose then." Um but then I'll do
my sort of I don't want to say secret, but secret
communications about public business on my personal account. Would that be a way
to kind of shield your public uh communications by using your private
email? No, it's a way then to expose your private email, right, to having to
be rifled through to discover any documents pertaining to public business.
And I don't know about you, but I would rather not have my Yes, I still have a
Yahoo account. Um, I would rather not have
that picked through because then it would be revealed how just how many
pairs of boots I buy on Amazon on a regular basis and that would be very
embarrassing. So, but you know, that's what we would have to do, right? is that
goes through each of your emails wherever they're lodged and say, "Okay,
which of these satisfies the request?" So, I think you do want to exercise
caution to make sure that you do limit your communications about public
business to your ter email so that they can be easily retrieved should there be
a request for them. We've had council members in the past or in other places
that I've worked that for ease of going through their email have funneled that
their email to the same place. Um, and that's not a good practice
either because that mixes them on a place that you may not want to be mixed
and it opens it all to public scrutiny. Point on it. I I'm doing open records
as well. It's not just that they will go through your email. You will lose you
can lose possession of your laptop a great period of days while a forensic IT
scientist goes through it looking for and retrieving emails that you thought
were deleted, right? That that as you probably know remain on the hard drive
of your computer until they get overwritten. So it's not just a privacy
issue. So when can I have my laptop issue? Yeah, good point. through
your bone. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. So, caution very
important. And then, you know, electronic communications of all kinds
are potentially subject to the civil discovery process, right? So, in the
event that there is a claim where your emails could be implicated, there will
be a hold, right? First of all, placed on that. Um, and then ultimately, right,
there could be a discovery process. And so you'll have opposing council, right?
And their IT people going through those, you know potentially
um so see what I mean about communications no longer being very very
private um when you're a public official. So
about first amendment and social media
so yeah thank you. Um quasi judicial issues. So your role as a judge in
addition to being a legislator. So um clearly right you guys kind of
understand and probably intuitively understand the legislative role because
there's lots of models for that at other levels of government. But not all of
those levels of government also have uh members who have a quasi judicial role.
that's almost unique, I think, to counties and municipalities. I don't
know about school boards. Maybe there's a little bit in there, but
municipalities are really where that game is strong in terms of having a
quasi judicial role for elected officials. So, I would break out your
responsibilities broadly into two areas, the legislative and the quasi judicial.
And then you know if we compare sort of the activities and the rules of
engagement that apply to each you can almost see that they're black and white
proposals. So legislative activities are the ones that probably came to light
right when you were first considering um taking this office right you are going
to listen to citizens contact you about their priorities and their concerns. uh
you're going to be potentially investigating those issues yourself,
right? You're going to have opinions because you too are members of the
community about those issues before they ever, right, come to the agenda of the
council as a whole. You might even talk to each
other, right? you hear about something from a citizen and you start talking
about the issues not in a serial meeting sense of course but you know when I say
don't have serial meetings I I don't mean don't ever communicate because you
will communicate right and if you're doing so in a way that's not intended to
skirt the requirement of the open meetings law then I don't really have an
issue with that I think you just have to be careful about the appearances uh you
might even uh work in advance to see if there's a consensus around a particular
issue before you bring it forward as a legislative priority. Right? Are these
all okay legislative activities? Absolutely. These are accepted things uh
that are part of the legislative process. And then ultimately right after
all of this groundwork, there might come before the body as a whole an ordinance
or other enactment that will have prospective application to everybody who
is encompassed within that ordinance enactment. And so that's the essence of
legislation, right? It's prospective in nature. It doesn't single out the one
entity or person or business. It kind of applies prospectively to everybody,
right, that you intended to encompass. So that is legislation. And so when you
think about the rules of engagement, pretty loose, right? They're
pretty loose. Quasi
judicial. So quasi judicial is literally the opposite in that it's
not, you know, a general ordinance of prospective application to everybody.
You're taking action on a single entity's rights, a single person's
rights, right? A single business's right using already established law. applying
that established law to the facts that you hear at a hearing, marrying up the
facts and the law to arrive at the correct decision. So that is exactly
what judges do, right? Uh and it is so different from
legislation. And so when you step into right your
responsibilities not really thinking about the distinction between
legislative and quasi judicial it's easy to carry over the relatively loose way
in which you do legislation over into quasi judicial and then you get directly
into trouble as a result. But as long as you kind of say okay I'm issue spotting.
I know this is legislative or I know this is quasi judicial and then apply
the proper rules of engagement to each of those then you will not get in
trouble personally. You will also be doing that a huge favor because quasi
judicial matters uh can be appealed through rule 106. Have you guys this
point heard about rule 106? Yeah of course. Yeah. So, it's the route
of appeal for quasi judicial matters and it's kind of a slam dunk if you arrived
at the right decision and you followed the proper procedure, right? Because the
there's a lot of deaths granted to your decision as long as you followed the
rules. It's like what are the the magic words that competent evidence on the
record? Yep. Exactly. And what does that mean, Dan? He asked me, he asked me
twice last time when I did.
Say that again. Confident evidence means enough evidence of a proposition which
if reasonable minds could differ to the conclusion. It's it's pretty
differential. Um so you know abuse of discretion is another way like use
discretion. We would never do that, right? Um, and so it's a pretty
differential standard. As long as you follow the the rules, um, that's going
to hand you a winner, right? So that's another
reason. Um, though at this point, you're very
well familiar with what is judicial and what is not. And I'm sure to the extent
that it's not clear, um, you know, it it will be pointed out to you this is a
judicial matter. So uh there will be no doubt from that standpoint. But you know
if we go back to the things that you do for legislation, right, you can see
black and white that these are things you do not do in quasi judicial, right?
You do not listen to citizens contact you in advance of hearing the matter. Is
that going to be hard to do at times? I would think so. Right? Because
one of the joys of municipal government is access, right? The fact that
everybody knows who you are, they know how to get a hold of you, right? And and
they don't know these rules. Exactly right. Exactly right. Yeah. And so, you
know, they may be surprised that you were so open to discussions on matter a
legislative and then suddenly here's matter judicial and you're like, get
away from me. Right? And so, you know, it it is important to kind of arm
yourself with what's okay and what's not because uh if you don't, then you may be
pulled in advertently into um activities that will if not make
you not inappropriate decision maker, at least create the apparent that you are
not an appropriate decision maker. So listening to citizens who contact you in
person, by email, on social media, etc. Not something to do on a quasi judicial
matter. What should you do? I always say blame the attorney
because that's one of the things we're good for. But another thing you can do
is say, you know, this is a quasi judicial matter. A hearing has been or
soon will be scheduled. And so, uh, the most effective thing that citizens can
do is sign up to testify at the hearing so that all of us can hear what you have
to say and it can be on the record, right? So, if you explain it that way, I
think citizens won't go away mad or assume that you're, you know, kind of
trying to push them away, right? uh there are good reasons why you should
encourage them to come to the hearing or at least submit testimony for the record
in some other fashion. So, just to pick that apart a little
bit, when you say um something is scheduled as a quasi judicial matter or
will soon be, what if it's not scheduled yet and we don't anticipate it be
scheduled like a land use item that's being heard by your planning
commission, but but it has every one of those kind of has the potential to be
but the council is the appellet body for the right right decision so they might
as well be a decision maker it doesn't make any difference okay yeah that's a
good clarification you know maybe it's not soon will be but foreseeably could
be right foreseeably could be um so investigating the issues
yourselves you know you guys each have strong opinions right about this
community its priorities what you want where etc
You may have subject matter expertise. A lot of subject matter
experts end up on a council because citizens trust their expertise. But
oddly enough, you know, when you become a council member, you guys become like
the ultimate generalists, right? And you know, I mentioned you've got
people, well, you've got people for subject matter, too. And so it's not
incumbent upon elected officials to try to become subject matter experts on any
given quasi judicial topic because that expertise will be given to you by those
whose job it is to do that and your job then is to make the decisions.
It may be that you have a subject matter expertise that naturally lends itself to
being shared, right? Uh attorneys of course are the worst offenders in that
regard because we only see the entire world in legal terms. Everything is a
legal issue. And so I'm the expert. You ought to be looking at me. Right? If I
were a member of the council, I might be inclined to feel that way. I've been a
member of a nonprofit board. And you bet, right? I threw my weight around
when I thought it was, you know, for good, not evil by trying to characterize
it as a legal issue. Look at me, right? But then we didn't have quasi judicial
matters on a nonprofit board. So that was, you know, maybe out of line, but
certainly wasn't unlawful behavior on my part. But you could see where subject
matter expertise could cause one member of the council to have undue influence
over the rest of the council in terms of, you know, being looked at as the
expert, right? And so you don't need to do that. You shouldn't do that because
each of you stands on your own as a generalist. Each of you holds 17th of
the power and the decision making um authority of the the
council. Let's look at another one. Oh, investigating the issues yourself. So,
you're like, well, okay, I got the planning
commission, but I'm a little bit dissatisfied because it didn't seem to
cover a couple of areas where I have questions. So, I'm going to go out and
investigate myself. Is that an okay thing for a judicial decision maker
to because at that point you're not a decision maker, you're an investigator,
right? So no, that is not an appropriate thing to do. And I do remember a rule
106 action where I was defending the city council and I had two members of
the council actually state on the record the
investigation that they did themselves on a prospective land use application.
I've seen that before too it's fine. It's not in this body
previous one. It was like, "Well, your business,
um, I happen to know uses bright orange in all of its branding, including the
building front and all of the signage." Uh, and I happened to know this because
I visited one of your sister businesses in the town next door, and the orange
was so garish, I couldn't, right? And so, I'm voting no. Was that
appropriate? I thought that was the sure loser. Thank goodness there were seven
other members who hadn't done that. But if there's been a majority that had done
that, I think we would have lost that rule 106 for sure. So investigating,
lobbying and being lobbyed, right? That's okay in the legislative context.
But in a qualified judicial matter, you each of you has to make up your own mind
based upon the evidence that you hear and the law that you apply. And so
lobbying and being lobbyed are inappropriate. Working in advance to
create a consensus. Needless to say, right, uh judicial people do not do
that. They don't work in advance to to do anything. They listen to the evidence
and then render a decision. And this is an interesting place where I have seen a
convergence of working in advance via email
communication, right? And somebody got suspicious and asked for the emails
about this particular topic. And lo and behold, right, council members were
piping amongst themselves, "This is a great project. I fully intend to vote
yes on it." How about you? Sand open meetings. Exactly.
Exactly. Right. They Yeah. And working in
advance. So yeah, like Oh, please. Um so so you can see how uh quasi judicial
issues you might think well how can I get in trouble doing this but it's very
very easy to get into trouble or having strong convictions prejudgments that you
don't hesitate to voice yeah this will go back a long long time
but I remember a um city council that was the liquor licensing authority and
they had one member who was completely opposed to every liquor
license and her perspective was, "Well, liquor leads to dancing and dancing
leads to spin and so I've got my finger on the no button on every liquor license
every time, no matter what." Was that appropriate? Have to
have strong personal convictions. You gotta respect her. She was very
consistent. But was that one of the the legal
criteria around granting or denying a a liquor license? Most definitely not.
Right. And so I remember Charlie. [Music]
He was like, I know we have this problem, but I can't fix it. And thank
goodness there's only one. So we get we won't get in trouble as long as there's
only one. But you can see how right if there was a substantial minority or if
there was lobbying around that perspective then you could quickly end
up with decisions that would be subjected to to legal
challenges. All right. So that is quasi judicial. Um I kind of covered it by
looking at the legislative stuff but does that make sense? Have I beaten it
to death? Would you like to add anything
else? Okay. All
right. So, it really is sort of a one-hour training and I want to uh get
on to the next topic, but you know, here are some suggestions. Don't make up your
mind before the hearing. Don't make prejuditial
prehering statements. Uh don't speak with one side or the other before the
hearing. uh be careful even when speaking with staff about a matter,
[Music] right? Because you can kind of betray,
right? That you have a perspective or a fixed idea of what you want the outcome
to be by asking pointed questions, right? Or saying, I want you to research
this part, right? Give me some say no kind of thing. Uh, and so you do want to
be very very careful in speaking with one side or the other. Um, or really
with with anybody. Uh, I don't know if pro and con petitions are even a thing
much anymore, but yeah, don't sign any of those about a pending quasi judicial
matter. And of course, don't be a witness at your own hearing. So, you
know, in this regard, have you guys ever um been in a hearing where you were
like, I wish somebody would testify about this because nobody is touching on
this particular area, but I happen to know. What would you do if you happen to
know, but it didn't seem like anything was coming out in the testimony?
Did you say it yourself? Good question. of the appropriate
individual, whoever is providing you with the testimony you have a question
about. Yeah. Or whoever is in the best position to know.
Yeah. Could be staff, could be the developer. Yeah. Yeah. In our um garish
orange example, right? Okay. He drove by, right? A
similar development, but he didn't have to say that. He could have said, "Oh, by
the way, Mr. witness. So, what what are your brand colors and how do you intend
to incorporate them right in the building? Franchises have
options in using those colors. Yeah,
exactly. So, I I think we've covered this enough, but suffice it to say that
if you do these things like lobbying one another, talking with citizens, etc.,
Then you know enough of those can end up making you guys look like biased
decision makers which is the last thing that you want to be right. You want to
be and comfort yourselves as unbiased decision makers. And so now when we talk
about exparte or outside the hearing context, we are literally trying to
preserve your prerogative to participate in the hearing without being challenged.
So I had a mayor once um listen to me on this presentation for a while and then
she said to me Tammy all these rules around exparte content do lawyers just
make them up to try to control them and my feelings were hurt
man you know I'm literally like trying to protect your prerogative to
participate and also protect like the integrity of the decision.
So that if it's challenged, it will be defensible and we will
prevail. That's literally our only motivations for that. I talked with them
last week about what about the exparte communication you cannot avoid. You're
you're trapped in the in the line at the grocery and no matter how many times you
say I really need to hear this at the hearing. This could impact the integrity
of the decision. They won't stop. And it goes on. It goes on and I've told
them, "Disclose it. Tell me about it. We will rehabilitate you at the hearing.
And by rehabilitating, it simply just means letting the other side know of the
communication and its nature." So they have a chance to respond. As I've told
them, there's nothing illegal, unethical, immoral about the expert
communication, not having one and then not disclosing it. you know, try not to
happen, but if you can't avoid it, disclose it and all will be well. Yeah,
it's a very cleansing power. So, just because I'm still learning a
lot about all of these things, let's say somebody comes up to us with with a
topic that we're not sure if it's quasi, judicial, or
legislative. We hear them and all we need to do is just let everybody know
that we heard this when we learned that it's quasi judicial.
I think that's essentially correct. Yeah. And you know, as as you spend time
on the council, you'll be able to issue spot a lot
better. Most of the time, right, when citizens want to talk to you, it's on a
couple of things. One, purely administrative matters or
two, matters, right? So, they're not there to talk to you about policy
issues. What if that's vision? They're probably wanting to get specific. So, I
would have your antenna up whenever that
happens. Social media. So, I guess I don't need to say a whole lot about this
because you guys are exercising some really good best practices there in
terms of staying off, but unfortunately not everybody is. Um, and so we got to
talk a little bit about the case law because it's largely pretty good. And
yet, if you talk to the city attorneys, if you talk to, you know, me or Pam
Light, the legal beagles at CERSA, we're like very cautious because even though
that the case law as given to us by the US Supreme Court is actually not bad,
there's lots of good reasons to continue the way you are in terms of limiting
your activity on social media. So, we had this case a couple of years ago and
there were actually there were two cases and it was funny that the the one case
that went up to the Supreme Court that received the most notoriety actually
involved a a city manager, but he was a public official just like any other
public official. And so, the case law that he made applies equally to elected
officials. So the question revolved around, you
know, when can a public official end up running a foul of the
first amendment for blocking somebody on
social media, right, on a sort of public discussion page. And
so Supreme Court was pretty differential and said number one, right, in order for
the potential for liability liability to exist, that official must possess actual
authority to speak on the city or town's behalf on the particular matter at issue
where some kind of block right was put on. Now ask
yourselves as individual elected officials, how often am I the one in
actual authority to speak on behalf of the
Not that often, right? Yeah.
Yeah. Exactly. So that in itself was a pretty good win at least from a
liability standpoint. And then secondly, the official must purport to be
exercising that authority right when speaking or suppressing speech on those
social media posts. So not only do you have to have actual
authority, but you also have to say as a council member of the town of I hereby
exercise my actual authority to when was the last time that happened?
Never. Right? Everybody does social media stuff as their own
opinion. And so this is one hint. If you're ever on social media, you can
preface this statement. You can preface the whole page by saying opinions are my
own only. I'm not recording to speak on behalf
of that's one you can help shield yourself. So this is a pretty good case
from that standpoint. But still, you know, this poor manager, right, started
out with a personal page. Then when he was appointed as city manager, he made
that personal page kind of somewhat public. You know, he still posted
pictures of his daughter, etc. But he also started doing things like official
city surveys, right, and things like that. And then when a couple of people
um started becoming trollish on his page, right, he started blocking them or
deleting comments when he thought they were derogatory or
stupid. Seems like kind of a natural thing to do. Um but he did end up going
to federal district court, went to a federal appellet court, and it went all
the way to the US Supreme Court. And so even though the result was a good one,
would you say that he was a loser anyway? Yeah. Right. Who who were the
only winners in this? The attorneys. The attorneys. Yeah. Thank you. Right.
Because it was years and years of litigation and years and years of
uncertainty, albeit a decent result at the end. So that is what from a best
practices standpoint, you know, using caution and social media continues to be
our our best advice. And also this case was a very narrow issue, right? When are
the federal civil rights laws violated, right? Pursuant to the first amendment
because you brought or deleted somebody or somebody's post. So it's a very
narrow issue. There's a whole world of other laws that that can be potentially
implicated, right, around social media like information
laws. Um, we already talked about open record issues and a host of others. And
so, you know, keeping away from social media or at a minimum keeping it light,
right? doing FYIs, not getting into substantive discussions or arguments, I
think does continue to be our best advice. Um, you know, when you have
trolls, right, trying to attack you, what is it that they want most?
Reaction. Yeah. Reaction, attention. And so, not giving them that will keep you
from being able to feed them. Now, I'm sure this is not happening in Prisco,
but it does happen in other communities where individual elected officials start
weaponizing social media against the public or even against one
another. Not cool, right? It really does not it's not a good look, right? when um
people are like, "I'm not going to say this to somebody's face, but I sure have
no fear about typing it behind their back and hoping they see it." Right? It
feels so junior high when you see that happening. And it's it's really not cool
and it's really not productive, right? If the idea is to forge a consensus
around issues to keep your agendas moving forward, then being on social
media and using it as a weapon really does work at counterpurposes with
that. So legislative versus administrative matters, where are you
focusing your efforts? So this is the most um basic of org charts but I think
it's accurate to say that you know each community is kind of organized this way.
We start with the ownership right which would be the the
citizens and then governance the governing
body management your manager supervisors and department heads and then finally
frontline employees. Accurate. Yeah accurate if very basic. Uh, I use this
to illustrate three things. Um, one, time horizon. So, when you look at the
time horizons of your frontline employees, they're pretty short time
horizons, right? They're like, what do we need to get accomplished
today? So, they're looking at today. Your supervisors, their time horizons
are a little further out. Uh, what do we need to get accomplished this week? Uh,
what's on our work plan for this month? your manager, you know, he's got his eye
focused even further out, right? He's got a work plan for the whole year.
Probably you have a fiveyear plan if not right longer in duration. And so his
eyes are cast further out. But as the governing body, you know, your time
horizons should be the furthest out of anybody in this organization. And I
don't know if you any of you are longtime residents of First
Code. Have you seen a lot of changes past 20, 30
years? Right. Huge changes, incredible changes. Um dad and I and the
communities we represent, especially on the front range, like some of them have
become in many ways unrecognizable, right? And I want to say for the better
for the most part those were visionary leaders right who had their eyes 30 40
50 years out instead of having you know their attention diverted to what's
happening today even worse what happened yesterday right and so when you've got
like big weighty issues of the long far ahead of you future it can become easy
to focus instead on the easier stuff like what happened yesterday, what's
happening today. But when you take your time horizons, right, too close, then
you're encroaching on other people's right purview and you're not keeping
your eye where your eyes should be. Dealings within the chain of command.
This is Tammy's rule of not jumping up or down more than one level in the
organization. Uh and so here's the rule. Frontline employees should not jump up
more than one level, right? They should be dealing primarily with their
supervisors. Right? On the other side of this, right?
If you're a governing body member, likewise, you should not be dealing with
frontline employees. You should be dealing with your own direct
report. That make sense? Does that seem doable?
Yeah. Good. Because I I've seen this cause a lot of chaos within
organizations both ways, right? Both ways. I've seen uh employees kind
of say to an elected official, "Hey, right, I voted for you. I've got a
problem with my supervisor. What are you going to do about it?"
Right? That's going to happen. You can't stop it. It's really in your response
where you know things can go south or not go south. And I will mention in this
regard that Colorado has had some recent laws put into place
whereby frontline employees actually do have protected rights in terms of being
able to contact elected officials, right? So they do have that one-way
ability, right, to try to pull you in. So again, your response then becomes
super super critical because just because they have that right doesn't
mean you have to say okay I'll carry your water right all the way up if I
have to right you can say thanks for letting me know right I'll take it
to right and let him know what's going on but these state laws really make it
more important then for for you guys then to have the right response
Frisco on this issue has a more detailed charter provision than most. Thank you
to wise doctors. A lot of them only contain a
sentence. We have a whole paragraph titled relationship of council
to administrative service. So I won't take any more of your time, but I
recommend it to your reading. It's it's one of the more strongly worded ones.
Good. Yeah. Then no redundancy. you know, when you look at the
administrative side of the organization, um there's a I don't want to call it
redundancy, it's not quite the right word, but there's an ability, right,
when there's a vacancy, when people are out out for an extended period, right,
whatever, that people can cover for each other, right? It's one of the great
things about having an organization, right? You can have one person out and
the rest will pitch in, right, and make sure that the work continues to be done.
But let's say at the level of the council
um you know a couple of you or more than a couple of you had your attention
diverted away from the big picture high altitude priorities of the organization
and you got pulled into what's happening today or what happened yesterday. Is
there the rest of the council or other people who are going to be able to say,
"Okay, well, they're out for the count. We'll just pitch in for now while their
attention is diverted." No, because there is no redundancy at your level.
So, there's no ability for anybody else to be able to say, "Okay, well, we'll
pitch in and uncover for that person while their attention is diverted."
So this is an area that I think is related to legislative versus
administrative and then you know your role versus personnel matters, right? Um
and this is where I think I mentioned your charter. There you go.
There it is. I love this charter provision. Right. It you're right. It's
a whole paragraph. The whole paragraph. It's not the typical sentence. Agreed.
Yeah. So except for the purpose of inquiry, the council, each member, the
mayor and each council committee shall deal with the administrative service
solely through the town manager, right? And um no elected official shall give
orders to any employee of the town, right? Publicly or privately. Um now we
do have the except for purposes of inquiry right to say uh each member
shall deal with the town manager solely through the mayor. Um and so there's
this sort of inquiry exception, right? But I'll just say this about inquiries
from council members. Um, I don't know if you think of
yourselves this way, but at this point once you took the oath of office, you
became the center of the municipal universe. I'm not exaggerating, am
I? Right. You are the center of the municipal universe and the eyes are on
you. Right? They're looking at the questions you ask. They're looking at
whether you're smiling or you have a frowny face on, right, when they're
talking. Um, and they're listening to the questions that you may be asking for
purposes of inquiry, right? And you may be saying, I just wanted to ask the
question for my clarification. So, I picked up the phone and called. But what
the other person may be hearing at the other end of the line is how high do I
jump? Right? because you are the center of the municipal universe. Uh and so
they're trying to read into right everything you say, do uh your facial
expressions because you have that importance uh within the community. And
so I I do think even um using this inquiry exception has to be done with
great caution in a private or a public context. So it's very it's very similar
to being the commander of a military unit or being a high ranking officer.
When you walk in and talk to a group of soldiers, I've had a little bit of
experience with this. They think you're giving direction all the
time. And so um it's something that we talk about with the staff. We say a
single council member never is giving direction on a matter. If we need
direction on a matter, we take it back and get direction. Um, doesn't mean you
don't have preferences and things that you want to see happen or not happen as
the case may be, but we talk about that so that people are reminded when they
talk to you that it's not specific direction.
Yeah, good analogy, Tom. Yeah. And so that makes it sometimes a lonely job, I
think, right? Because you have to be real careful about not just the
realities, but the the appearance of the ways in which communicate with other
human beings within the organization. So
um yeah, so your question for clarification could be an order or
instruction from the receiving end. So, you know, it sounds like you guys have
talked about this issue and that you have established the process and of
course try to provide some guidance. So, you know, when in
doubt, it might tell him, right? He'll get the answer that you need. I think
that's always the most comfortable way of doing it. Um, and of course, there
are times when you literally are a citizen, right? Wanting to know
something that you need as a citizen. Uh, and so I'm not saying you can't even
do that, but still once you put that council member hat on, it is on for the
duration. So you have to be careful even when you're when you think you're just
asking as a citizen. You're not seen as a citizen
or speaking with one voice I think is kind of related to that. Have you guys
uh been in the situation yet where uh the vote was 43 and you were a part of
the three, you know, six to one? Yeah, it happens and it's
painful. But the worst thing you can do then as sort of the the defenders in any
given decision is to say, "Well, that's not my decision, right? It is the
decision of the body and I will respect it even though I didn't vote for it
because at some other time I will be part of the majority and I would expect
the same kind of respect from those that voted on the other side from me. Right?
So speaking with one voice very very important. Um using your direct reports
effectively as a resource and then speaking in terms of we not I. I don't
sense this as an issue in Bristol, but uh certainly if you were to model
yourselves after other levels of government,
be better modeling opportunities available.
But municipal officials currently are the grown-ups in the room. Okay. So
thank you very much for being the room in the room and modeling right how to
work with each other how to communicate with each other and one of those
modeling behaviors is speaking in terms of and not I right even before you know
these times of turmoil I think it was very frequent to see right
individual be it commissioners or state legislators and certainly at the federal
level They're all I right. I I I um and I kind of feel like that's one of the
natural consequences of partisan government. And I'm not saying partisan
government is bad at all. There's a place for partisan government, but it is
not municipal government, right? Municipal government is nonpartisan. And
so, you know, speaking in terms of we and not I is very very important as is
your responsibility to try and sort out and reconcile differences as opposed to
standing ones and committing to honoring, you
know, the priorities and the agenda of the council as a
whole. Does that make sense? All right. So many of these
topics can be explored in greater detail. Uh Sam Wid or I are always happy
to to come back for for training on any of them and I hope you'll take a look at
our our website and peruse the publication.
Okay. Thank you all so much. Thank
you. Some time for a break.
Yes, break.
Good call. Yeah, you're doing great.
So, perfect. Okay, I'm going to email them right now.
What's that?
Oh
yeah. So, let's go around the next
[Laughter]
That truly means there's nothing.
It's a great movie.
It was very good.
It probably makes it look a lot more interesting than it actually
is, but there's
definitely trying to believe it that he was only 80 80% of those are
living and actually get to participate because you've got to be under 80
you have to be under 80 I think it's under be over 80
at any rate believe of the voting membership
appointed like 80% or something one would think
church in people.
Well, that's where the that's where the politics
hopefully get a little go back to Dan Brown, please.
Thank you for canceling that so quickly. Thank you for your
quick response.
We're only talking here everyone. This is a secret
secret
email. Alex is on. Okay, good. How do we make her a
presenter? Make her bigger. Make her bigger and make her a presenter. And
yeah, can you give me sharing request or sharing share screen? And hello
everyone. Great to see you. Hello.
Uh everyone um as we as Stacy gets everything prepped, this is the
discussion of the 95% comprehensive plan review. Um, Chris Vald is of course
Bumies or Belz. Whatever. I don't want to be doing
an oil spill.
Of course, our town planner will and we also have a presentation.
Take it away. All right. Well, thank you for your time tonight, town council. We
are so excited to present the 95% draft. It's really quick work session tonight
and this is kind of like your last chance before we do the adoption hearing
on May 13th. Put any last tweaks into it. Um in the staff report you can see
we I believe we addressed all the comments from the 80% draft from the
town council. So um we're just super excited to present this plan to you. I'm
really excited about the future of Frisco. So Allison, I'm gonna let you
take it away. Oh, let me introduce her. Allison faculty with the um design
workshop and then okay I lost Alex but Alex was on there also part of the team
from design workshop so take it away all great well thank you um it's so great to
be here with all of you um and really looking forward to hearing some comments
and feedback um we have a short amount of time so I'm going to try and move
this um quickly to allow for you all to have a little bit of time for discussion
So, I've got about 20 minutes of presentation here and we know that
you've seen and been extensively involved in this process and so we may
go through this pretty quickly. Um, but please just flag if there's anything you
want us to cover in more detail or write down any questions and we're happy to
address those at the end. So, as you may know, we have a deep
bench of consultants supporting this project. Um, Jessica has been PIC. She's
not able to be here tonight. she is on an airplane. Um, but we've also worked
with uh Tool Transportation and Planning um and Spirit Environmental um and then
with our in-house strategic services team to really round out um the
information that's ultimately in this plan. Um as you know, comprehensive
plans are by nature comprehensive. They look a lot at land use, but also all the
other elements of how the town works and really thinking about how this is a
place, Frisco is a place to live, work, and play altogether. Um, we're really
excited. This plan's forward thinking and it's, I think, really thoughtfully
addressing growth and development for the future of Frisco in a way that's
really just genuine to your community. Um, we also want to make sure that we
check all the boxes and make sure that it meets state requirements. Um, we
really wanted to make sure that this has realistic goals that can be tracked. I
hope you can see that in this plan. But really at the heart of it, this is the
community's plans. So much engagement really informed the outcomes so that it
can serve as a pl a path forward for your
community. Um, so this is just a quick overview of of the last year. We kicked
off this process last March. Um, kudos to the town for a, you know, kind of one
year of a comprehensive plan. It's a lot of work and it was a lot of work by the
town and the community to get to this point. So, um, thank you to everyone
who's been part of this process. Um, and we're just we're so excited to
be here um, at looking at potential adoption um, for May of this coming
year. Um, and we'd also like to thank all of
you who've been involved in meetings, in the working group, and especially staff.
Um, they have put so much time and commitment to advancing the plan to get
here. And so, just huge thank you to all of you who've reviewed throughout
different parts of the processes um for staff and their involvement. And I think
it really speaks to um the strength of this plan moving forward.
So we'll share really briefly project process and key milestones um through
where you can reflect it in the plan. And so the first thing is we know that
Frisco's done a lot of great work in the past and this plan intended to build off
of that to so to ensure alignment we had a past plans review. This is all
captured in appendix C um as well um as just kind of on one summary page within
the document. We also know that uh context
is critical and so we did a robust existing condition summary. We developed
four separate memorandum. Those are also found in the appendencies um in great
detail highlighting everything from economic trends and a market profile, an
ecological assessment, transportation assessment as well as kind of an overall
understanding of the physical planning of the community. And this information
was really important um to make sure that we're moving forward from um from a
solid foundation.
My favorite part of this project has been the community engagement. We had so
many wonderful conversations with community members. Everything from focus
groups with over 73 participants to um popup events outside coffee shops um and
even attending a middle school football game. We just we had some really great
conversations. Um, this section of the document tries to capture a summary of
some of those comments as they informed the outcomes of the plan. And all of the
different engagement summaries are captured in the appendex of the document
as
well. We also had a wonderful community working group. Um there were 20
different local partners and individuals who really gave their time um to
represent the community voice and I was so impressed with their thoughtfulness
with their engagement and their understanding of the community to help
us rightsize goals and strategies to really meet Frisco as well as help to
guide us through the process to make sure that you know this is ultimately
Frisco's plan. And so, um, just a huge ex huge extension of gratitude for all
of the participants who dedicated their time, um, to this
process. And as I've mentioned, this plan is truly Frisco's plan. Um, it's
been shaped by the community um, and staff and leadership of this town. And
as such we have the guiding principles which really serve as the organization
of the plan itself um and kind of outline the strategies in subsequent
chapters. So these are this is the town's vision. This is the town's values
and and that's really been a driving force within this document.
Um during our engagement events, we focused on understanding different ways
that Frisco could address growth in the future um through scenario planning. And
each of these one um ideas you see on the screen had certain tradeoffs and we
had some really good conversations to gauge what's most important for the
community. This was really critical because it's ultimately what informed
the future land use map and combined kind of different pieces of each of
these three plans into the document um that you see in front of
you. So here's that future land use map. Um I won't spend too much time here, but
as you all know, a future land use map is not zoning, but it's a tool for how
to think about the future. And so this map really incorporates some of your
past planning while also thinking ahead um to where some moderate changes might
be able to incorporate um more of a sense of place and more opportunities
for housing in the community. Um and many of those other values you saw on
the past screen. And so some of those things are like extending Main Street
area to include West Main as well as creating Summit Boulevard as its own
district. and and that really came from all of you where we heard that different
parts of Frisco have different needs and we want to make sure that we can capture
the different needs of development in those areas as well. Um the land use
classifications support this map and they're really more detailed to help
guide some of the specific how-tos um for development in each of these uh
classifications that you see on the left side of your screen.
Um, we gave some pretty robust land use classifications
um that dig a little bit deeper into what some of those uses might look like,
how to think about connectivity within each of these areas, how to consider
parks and open space, as well as circling back to economy,
sustainability, and equity. So, making sure that each one of these areas thinks
about those different core values um in a meaningful way.
We also have a three-mile plan which is a requirement of a comprehensive plan
and much of Frisco is within this um uh US Forest Service area and has kind of
limited expansion geography especially with steep hillsides and with Lake
Dylan. But the three mile plan is kind of this comprehensive look and includes
information about what some adjacent planning areas might be. Um and then
staff uh will provide subsequent information on this plan in a future
appendex to the document. Um but this captures the the state requirement and
and talks about some of the considerations for areas outside the
physical boundary of
FISO. Ah and then goals and strategies. This is really kind of the meat of the
document. This is includes programs, policies, projects. really kind of
thinking about the how do you achieve this moving forward. Um, and this is
meant to help guide uh achieving that the flume that I just shared as well as
providing more of a to-do list that will help the town in
implementation. And so, you know, this um this just kind of shows that we have
really robustly vetted this plan through the process. Um, we had a 50% draft that
was reviewed by town. We had a formatted 80% draft that was reviewed by many of
you as well as the working group. Um, and we've incorporated community
comments from an open comment period that had an open survey. All of that has
been incorporated into this 95% draft that you see in front of you today. Um,
we'll pick up a final round of comments to make that a 100% plan based on any
conversations that we hear tonight as well as some conversations that we heard
from planning commission as well. Um, and so we'll be looking we
should change the date here today. Um, we'll be looking for plan adoption um in
on May 13th during your um, uh, formal meeting. So, uh, we look forward to
seeing you all then. We will be there um to to answer any questions and talk
through that that final 100% draft. With that, um, that leads us to
kind of this last piece of the draft discussion. Um, so this draft document,
um, incorporates I'm going to share a little bit on future land use and a
little bit on implementation. Those are the two pieces that um have changed a
little bit since that 80% draft that you reviewed. Um so once again that future
land use map really supporting as a tool for decision making and aligning future
development with um where the town hopes to grow. So this can really be a tool
when you see different applications come through to kind of guide that check and
balance of does this line up with our future. As I mentioned, we have the
future land use classifications which details out all of those colors on the
map um through character and design criteria. And then something that we
added between the 80% and 95% draft was um a discussion around sub area
opportunities. We heard that there's certain differences in area especially
like along west Maine. Rather than adding sub area classifications,
uh we put into the document the opportunities which really highlights a
more detailed explanation of design and planning concepts in these specific
locations. And finally, uh the implementation matrix uh is intended to
serve as a really easy to navigate resource. Um, once again, big uh big
thank you to Chris and Katie and town staff who worked through this list to
make sure that it's in alignment with a lot of the other elements um of town
planning. And so this implementation matrix includes the some specific
priority actions that fall under each of the goals. It highlights um who can take
the lead or partner. Um the LMH stands for low, medium, high. What's the
priority and the potential resources needed? Um and then we've identified
areas of alignment. So those icons you see all the way um to the far right
indicate there might be some crossover or alignment with other values
uh in this plan. You know, it is comprehensive and these things are often
interconnected. And so that's that. Um what as I said I'm hoping to keep a
pretty quick high overview to allow you to provide your thoughts with us and and
share any discussion points um while we have your time. So any questions?
I know you and I have been through it enough I think. Um guys, any uh
questions right now on that?
[Music] I do want to add the with um attachment
C, what staff decided to do was take the approved CIP and compare it to the goals
and policies in the comprehensive plan. And so some of the changes that we're
still kind of massaging through is to make sure if something is a priority and
funded and it's not mentioned in the comprehensive plan, we're going to get
it in there before the 100% draft or if there's something that's in the
comprehensive plan unfunded. We don't see it happening in the next 10 years.
We're actually going to modify that language to say if funding becomes
available because we want it in the comprehensive plan in case a grant
opportunity comes up, something like that. and we really want to make sure
that something's already funded through the CIP that we have that support in the
comprehensive plan and other documents. Great example of that is the the uh
trail connection uh underneath the highway perhaps at 10
Mile Creek. You know, it is not something we're going to fund ourselves,
right? It's going to be an opportunity. Melan C dot gives us an opportunity
So, we're really hoping the plan doesn't just sit on a shelf and collect dust for
the next five years. We really want this to be implementable and we work through
it when we're doing development with you and Ryan Rob or Zach and Robin,
sorry, our work did go into that. I'm sure you read it for the second.
What happens to it after adoption besides that we use it obviously does
does it get reviewed by a state agency in any way? So we do have a grant from
Dola and what we will do is send the draft or the final plan to them so that
we meet the grant requirements but other than that it'll kind of be up on our
website. We'll use it hopefully. I know Allison said she's really interested in
entering it for um planning awards. So we shall see what happens with that. So
hopefully it can be a guiding light for others. So all the partners that teamed
up with staff, are they kind of out of the picture now? They still make
comments occasionally or Yes, I'm still getting emails from some of the working
group, but it's not so much like change this in the plan now. It's more of like
when is it going to get adopted? When can you share it out? When can I get it?
Yeah, that's great. And then from developers,
they're like when am I going to be subject to this? When am I
Yeah.
Okay, that's it. Yeah, thank you for the question. I'm really impressed with all
of it. Like I said before, like it's very digestible, really understandable
for someone just walking into this now and all the work you guys have put into
it. Thank you. It's quite the not quite the tone.
It's mostly appendix but yeah think it might be
actually the but it's 100% we'll make sure copy if you're
happy and thank you for the presentation and again we're going to see this on May
13th on maybe a little business card that you would have that correct
Thank you all. Okay. Well, thank you all. Um I just want everybody it's been
such a pleasure working with you and I'm looking forward to seeing you on May
13th. Absolutely.
Thanks, Alison. Thanks, Alex. Thank you.
Okay, I believe that is it for the Oh, sorry. It's okay. It's easily It's the
open It's the open records act.
Yeah. So, next up we uh we do have a little more training from open records
training for just be warned, we're going to be done
early. I do not have amendments on this.
So
give an opportunity to ask any followup questions you may have had. You've heard
about decision making twice now and two meetings and trying to draw that
distinction and the distinction between the appropriate
bas you have on any of that now later any other time. I know
that presentations mine and Tammy tend to be similar and overlapping and
frankly I think that's good. I think a lot of this stuff is it takes a while to
sink in and sort of internalize it and be able to make better decisions on the
fly about what you're dealing with. Um so please if you have any I'm
happy to do that. Um, this meeting, this presentation I have on the Open Records
Act, um, while important and something that you should all be aware of, it's
really not anything that you're going to have to deal
with on any kind of regular basis. Maybe never at all, right? It's something you
should be aware of, but it's not going to come into play in your decision-
making. um like like the open meetings act and its limitations like the ethics
code and its limitations like quasi judicial decision-m this just kind of
happens and is won't require you to make any decisions but is something you
should be aware of um let's start with just some general definitions in big
picture um the act describes public records um and and declares them to be
open for inspection at all reasonable times it it defines A public record very
broadly as all writings made, maintained or kept by the state, any agency,
institution or political subdivision of the state that are and quote for use in
the exercise of functions required or authorized by law or administrative rule
or involving the receipt or expenditure of public funds. But if you break that
down just to the part that might be pertinent to you and writings that you
might make to your constituents, to council members, to Tom, to whomever,
right? Is it a writing paid for use in the exercise of functions authorized by
law? Your functions authorized by law are pretty broad, right? You're right
below the public, right? You can you can do virtually all functions.
So just about anything that that you're writing about that concerns the town or
its business is going to be a writing made for the using the exercise of the
function because it's just so darn broad when we're talking about about your
writings. Um individuals request copies of public
records relating to a particular subject matter. There is a substantial
likelihood that some public records would need to be disclosed. There are
exceptions to disclosure under the act and we're going to talk about that right
now. But the broad general rule is for disclosure and the narrow rules are the
exceptions to disclosure. Um that's something else I wanted to touch upon
just briefly. Most people envision the open records act or the federal freedom
of information act right the federal correlary as being all about hand over
the documents. I mean just just a big long discussion of hand over the
documents and that's really not what it's about open the the freedom of
information act and the state correlated their open records act are really a
thing and like you know you'll call our discussion of open meetings right about
the general policy beingness of a meeting but the exceptions being um for
executive sessions and things that there really is a public interest in keeping
private Here the open records act now goes to
the next step of you know some things there is a public interest in keeping
private and not disclosing and some things there are private interests in
not having the government disclose right we the government obtains lots of
private information about people that that could be disclosed right upon a
request unless there are exceptions that would allow us to hold it back. So, so
here you're you're dealing with both things the government may need to
temporarily keep confidential um excuse me or permanently depending on
on some of the some of the exceptions. [Music]
Um and not and not and it is not just dealing with its own interest as I said
the governmental interest in keeping something quiet for the time being but
the private interests in the information that that government tends to have. So
with that, I want to give you the first big broad general exception to the
records act and that is criminal justice records. Anything held down in the
police department um may well be disclosable, but that's under the
criminal justice records act provisions, right? It's separate and distinct from
the open records act because those are very separate and distinct
considerations as to when we let police investigatory records go for obvious
reasons, right? Um, you could get open records requests that would ask you to
reveal, you know, the records that provide evidence of the current status
of investigation. Investigation, right? You could, you know, just just all kinds
of things that need to be um kept confidential during investigatory phases
that would eventually be revealed at trial and the like. So, so that's the
first huge carve out is is none of what I'm going to say today applies to
criminal justice records. It's a whole separate act with a bunch of different
considerations and definitions. Privileged information,
that's primarily privileged communications, attorney client
communications. Whether I'm writing to Tom, I'm writing to the council, I'm
writing to any client representative. While the council could decide it wanted
to release that information, it wouldn't be released without the council's
approval because it's privileged and it is an exception to public records that
need to be disclosed. There's also this this
amorphous defined mostly by Kate's law privilege called the deliberative
process privilege. Kind of like the attorney
client. The idea of the attorney client privilege is you want clients to be able
to be open and honest completely, you know,
disclosing any and all relevant information. You want the attorneys to
be able to make the same kind of communications to their clients without
fear that what what we're saying here is going to go out into the public, right?
So we don't so we don't sort of self-limit communications whether from
the clients or the attorney's perspective. The same thing is true
under the delivery process privilege. This privilege is based upon the ground
I'm quoting here that quote public disclosure of certain communications
would deter the open exchange of opinions and recommendations between
governmental officials such as between Tom yourself or something that you
wanted to communicate with just I keep using as an example because you're one
of you're probably their main point of written contact other than perhaps
between each other. So the the point of this is it is intended to protect the
government's decision-making process, its consultive function and the quality
of decisions in order to withhold disclosure of any document under this
deliberative process privilege. The records custodian
Stacy over there must find and determine that the material is so candid or
personal that public disclosure is likely to stifle honest and frank
discussion within the government. So it's the same kind of thing, right? You
want you want the government to be able to tell its attorney anything and vice
versa. And with respect to some sensitive things, you also want to keep
lines of communication open without fear that every single thing I'm willing to
say, right? But again, there's got to be a finding that the material is so candid
or personal that public disclosure is likely to stifle honest and frank
discussion within the department. I have a hard time coming up
with examples, but but I will. Has that one been adjudicated?
We don't have we only have the definition from one or two cases.
Gotcha. What it means? Let me give you an
example. Something I think would probably qualify.
Let's say the town was going to consider adopting
regulations to concerning um or or to put more detail on on state
statutes concerning disclosure of the residences of people who have been um
convicted of of sexually oriented crimes. Okay.
um let's say as a council member you've had personal experience in
that area and I don't know whether it's an experience about you your
family siblings whatever it may be and I could I could see
communications right between each other or a council member to the manager
discussing the policy of this revealing that information saying here you know
this is kind of personal to me because and because of this I believe that we
ought to adopt unless it's a regular I think that would fit your deliberative
process, right? We don't want to stifle that kind of communication and and
releasing it would stifle it. That was a something you said in private that was
part of your deliberative process. So I I struggled to come up with examples,
but I think that's a a good one. something something where the
legislature legislator for expressing something personal relevant to the
legislative process that they that they wouldn't that you know that they
wouldn't want exposed publicly and you know they probably wouldn't have made
that communication had they knew it. So there's your deliberative process
privilege such such as it is
um oh certain correspondence of elected officials. So you can imagine, right, a
letter constituent to their their council member or one of their council
members discussing whatever issue that letter is open to disclosure
unless it expressly says or implies by its terms that the constituent would not
want the letter revealed. In that case, we can withhold it as under the
exception for what it's called circuit correspondence of elected officials. So
if the letter says, hey, please don't tell anybody that I know of this to you
or or you can imply it can withhold that disclosure
mandatory. So as I said that the the act is really this balancing act between um
disclosure and and protection both of things that should remain confidential
with the government or private interest um information about individuals that
the government is holding. So the act is broken into three
parts. Here are the documents you must disclose which is very broad as we
discussed. Here's a set of documents that you may or may not disclose
depending on the public interest involved in the matter. And then
finally, there's a list of mandatory um non-disclosure requirement. So here you
really start to get into personal interests of the individuals about whom
the record speaks. So, you know, some of this is quite quite intuitive. Medical,
mental health, sociological, and scholastic achievement data around
individual persons, right? We don't get a lot of that. School districts
do ton. Um, personnel files. This is really an
interesting one that again is counterintuitive. Here the act is really
forming the balancing of letting the world know um about the people who serve
the public and letting those individuals have some measure of privacy. So you
would think well if it's in the personnel file we just don't have to
disclose it. And actually that's not true because the act defines personnel
files very narrowly.
[Music] So for instance, we must disclose
overall performance evaluations but not individual ratings
on on individual items, right? It it keeps making these we must um we must
disclose how much money you make but not your address.
So it really is the balancing act of what things are really personnel files
meant to protect the the individual's personal interest and what and in what
part of those files the public interest prevail the public's right to know how
it's public employees perform what they're being paid etc. Um another
mandatory non-disclosure trade secrets privilege information confidential
commercial financial geological or geophysical data finished furnished by
or obtaining from any person a rarely used exception that
um I'll give you a good I'll give you the one good example I'm aware of
there's a municipality in the state that was his
will continue to negot negotiate with potential suitors to create a municipal
geothermal power system, geothermal heat system in receiving proposals to their
RFP. You know, this is kind of cutting edge technology geothermal and different
folks are doing it different ways. And so when they have come in to pitch the
municipality to say, "Here's what we do. Here's why we're better. Here's our
technique." Blah, blah, blah. Um, a lot of that stuff had to be withheld as as
trade secrets. Um, those private parties always also
want the deal that you just made with them to be secret as well. And you
always say, "No, that's you know, your your public deal with the public entity
is not one of your trade secrets. I understand you don't want your
competitors to know, but so again, the line between the private interest of the
commercial entity and the public's right to know." Um here's an interesting got
one that got added um in more recent years. Mandatory non-disclosure names,
addresses, telephone numbers and personal financial information of past
or present users of public utilities, public facilities, recreational or
cultural services that are owned and operated by state, its agencies,
institution or political subdivisions. Reason for that is
municipalities who are regularly getting requests. Please give me the name uh all
the records you have on any every individual to whom you have sold an
annual pass to your recreation center because they want a mailing list
for equipment sales or what you know they just they're just trying to mine
public information. So they they create this exception was very broad right
names addresses telephone numbers users of utilities public facilities
recreational services to to
records of sexual harassment complaints and
investigations. That's a very broad brush at this. And as a result
of disputes in recent years down under the Golden Dome and some claims of
sexual harassment, the legislature has seen fit to create enough exceptions to
claim records of sexual harassment complaints get released and when they
don't. a little outside the scope of this memo, but suffice to say that's one
of those areas
where privacy interests not to counter that public know.
Um, electronic mail, we touched on this just briefly,
but strongly recommend that you don't use your private email accounts to
conduct public business. And that means no public is any record made for the
purpose of exercise of functions authorized by
law for you to talk about the town or anything you're doing for the town or
anything the town's doing for you or anybody else without it meeting that
definition. Um, not only that over the email, but as I say, the likelihood is
when when these cases come to civil litigation, what you get is for
individuals to bring their laptop down to court and hand them over and they'll
get them back one day. It went on, you may remember 10 years ago, right? Went
on in a there was a big case in Summit County, the claiming of Summit County
government that resulted in a lot of people being without their laptops for a
brief period of time. how forensic scientist goes in and the area that none
of us can get to, but they can and find all the the deleted emails. Um,
the old mayor, Miles Porter,
no, this was one not involving us. This was a case. Yeah, this Yeah, we weren't
involved in this case. It was just Summit County. I just remember doing the
reading on it thinking, "Oh man, it's a bunch of people who are going to be
really mad because their phone, what are you going to do, right? You got to hand
this to somebody. Go to the Apple store first
and get another and download all your stuff." Can I ask a quick question?
Sure, please. Um, in reference to the laptops and private email, you and Tammy
were talking about earlier also. So Robin, is that a town laptop or is that
your person? So you know me and Zach here because
we're wise men. We have Apple products that we are in love with. Now
you know what I use on my I don't know if you do I use Apple Mail client. So I
pull up my mail and it has all my various email addresses. Yeah. Now I'm
only doing town on my town
email and it's going through somewhere something I'm sure to do with
Apple to eventually work through this client. Do you think that would result
in
right or wrong? Right. Right. And in that practical case, I mean that's the
reason that I only wherever I'm accessing my town email, I do do so
through the browser through the Microsoft client. I'm always using that
instead of going to a client doing going to a a client software online. I have a
feeling that might be
true. The remainder is is really just
a case study of the Baker Sales case, county
clerk was a guy by the name of Tracy Baker and he had an assistant named Lisa
Lisa Sale [Music]
and the assistant brought a sexual harassment hostile work base environment
claim that was that claim was was learned by the local press and the local
press made a request for uh any and all emails between Mr. maker
sale. Um the the fight was on about what what was
the nature of a public record. And you remember at the beginning of this the
the definition of a public record was is all writings made,
maintained or kept by the state any age institution subdivision of state that
are for use in the exercise of functions required or authorized by law.
administrative rule or involving the receipt or expenditure of public funds.
So, as you might imagine, it's not too hard to argue that romantic emails
between Mr. Baker and Miss Sale were not was not writings made for the use in the
exercise of functions required or authorized by law. They were having a
romantic relationship, right? Had nothing to do that. But the argument
that went all the way up to the Supreme Court was, well, wait a minute. it.
That's just one problem. The other problem is or these communications or
records involved the receipt or expenditure of public funds. But after
all, these were public computers on a public email. So that that Arapjo County
was was paying for by definition because they use this equipment. This this
involved the use or of of exercise involve the receipt or expenditure of
public funds. And so this goes all the way up to the Supreme Court. And the
Supreme Court holds that indeed they are not public records because they were not
made for functions authorized by law. And neither does the fact
that public computers were used and public email system were used
um mean that that record involves the expenditure receipt. They say you need
to read that more literally. Does this involve the receipt of you know does
this record involve the receipt? It's not it's not whether it was on a
computer system or done in a public building under under lights and a and a
climate control system that was paid for for instance. Um the uh I like this case
both because it's a really good result that really explains the difference
between what's public and what's private. I also really like really like
the the quote. After considering the content of the email messages as
required by the statute, we conclude that not all of the email messages that
issue here have a demonstrable connection to the performance of other
functions involving the receipt or expenditure of public funds. It is
apparent a large portion of the email messages instead contain only sexually
explicit exchanges between the baker and sale. Based on the content of the
emails, it is clear they were sent in furtherance of their personal
relationship and were not for use in the performance of public functions of the
reporters office. These messages demonstrate very private exchanges that
convey the quote every thought and feeling unquote of a public official
that we sought to safeguard from disclosure in wick the deliberative
process. So so intensely personal that we wouldn't have these communications
where you know we knew they're going to be disclosed. my favorite one. The only
discernable purpose of disclosing the content of these messages is to shed
light on the expressive Baker and sales fluency with sexually explicit
terminology and to satisfy the period interests of the press and the
public. It's just hilarious. Um, so at any rate, it
all this is meant to be more in the form of a friendly reminder. Be aware almost
anything you're going to write is going to be a public record.
There are some exceptions. They are limited.
Um could apply but not likely to instances. And if you're not if if you
aren't able to sign enough a day that at the end of the day that says I have only
ever communicated about town matters on my through my town email address. The
likelihood is that you that your email would be
examined. And that's what I've got. That would that mean if
uh theoretically then I mean if it got to that point to where would they then
say well we're not so sure
you also want to look at your
Yeah, it's a good question. think that in the face of an affidavit, the other
side would have to sh to the
contrary because the court was going to take that affidavit at face value for
what it is and then expect something contrary from the other side before
they're just going to order you. Well, the other side says they don't believe
you. Well, why doesn't believe you? Is there any reason? Are they just
on a fishing expedition? So I think if you really didn't and we
really could provide that up to David I don't think
how does that work with texting if so I didn't get a new
phone number so if I'm like texting
somebody then it's all of my phone records catch. We're all in catch.
I mean, it's, you know, I take that risk because
I haven't I haven't separated out that
stuff. I do all my personal business and my I mean, email is still a separate
client, but texting I have decided not to. I take the risk. I Yeah, I I enjoy
the protection of the attorney client privilege and I And I often find myself
acting out that last sentence, right? Nonetheless, because I just wouldn't
want it read. There's there's no such thing as manager client.
Yeah.
get on the phone. Now, in case it would be
interesting because you have HIPPA involved with your professional
work, too. I have a different Oh, you do? So, you
you have to be careful about it. Yeah. That stuff, too. So, I'm a little less
conservative than on the serial meetings. Yeah. The 2
by twos. coco it all they want the legislature
changes the right statute it's not illegal you know just look at scans all
they want to me it doesn't even look that bad I guess that's just my
perception me I mean I'm trying to think of situations where because sometimes we
do that in regards to like when we're uh starting to uh prepare the budget for
the council and we have meetings to say this is where this is what's coming your
way. We're not seeking a decision like that. Yeah. We're preparing for it's a
little different. I just don't know where you draw line. One official
meeting with another public official and talking they want and then rinse and
repeat. I I just can't see the courts ever
coming up with the rules that you can't do that. It's just not human nature.
It's too much to ask.
And and again, I said it several times in the
memo, open records um requests are not always easy
questions. Please don't hesitate, right? If you have Absolutely. Please.
It's it's often a complex analysis and often Chad well not often but what would
you say Stacy you and I talk in detail about 30 to 50% of all of the open
records you request receive at
least judgment and knowing what part of a person file to come out because you
must release it and others if you can't. As a county manager, we ran all of our
open records requests through the attorney's office just
because some legal question and it was just easier to not be scrutinized on it
from that perspective. And it's always a fire drill. We have three days. Yeah.
Unless we can show extenduating circumstances like our clerk is on
vacation or our our whoever it is. We have a finance director getting a budget
ready and is jammed for two may be. But then we got to write a letter to July.
Um there's a bill in the legisure this this year trying to extend that to five
days which would be really nice. It's three
days. Surely you can wait till the
United and all records related too.
So again, always encourage questions on any of these topics as they arise. I
know this is all brand new. Thanks. Um just about the difference between
well I guess I understand the differenceial meetings. Y maybe maybe
some clarification around like at what point should you stop meeting with
council members?
Well at the point at which well at any time when you're dealing with a quasi
judicial map just with that we're sorry. So with that
it's definitely I mean yeah yeah that is that that's the definite if it's going
to be a quasi judicial matter and you should understand even if the decision
isn't coming to you for the final decision quote unquote like our planning
commission lots of land use um applications um have their final
decision made by the planning commission unless they are appealed to the council.
And virtually any planning commission decision is going to be quasi judicial
and they can all be appealed by any party in interest in the decision. So
that means not just the applicant but any member of the public that
uh believe it's by writing within 10 days of the decision or any two council
members can call in and basically the council creates the appeal. So even
though you may not be the first decision maker and you may not ever be a decision
maker because you are the appellent body on a lot of those decisions the rules
apply you're just an appeals court judge instead of a trial court judge same
rules and it's on the potential as you noted that it might
not actually
in terms of Legislative decision. Okay, legislative.
You talk all you want to, whenever you want, whenever you want, so long as
you're only talking with one other council member at a time to violate the
meeting. So maybe I misunderstood that earlier. Serial meetings are okay for
legislative things, but not for serial meeting. I never really heard somebody
talk about it. Yeah. a serial meeting. The only thing that I would say
qualifies as a serial meeting prohibited by the open records act is email goes
from council A to council B gets forwarded on to councelor C. You just
had a meeting because three of you just about
something on the legislative matters talk with whatever other
counselor you want whenever you want to. Yeah, sure. That's what I thought.
That's what I think. Yes. Like she said, it's why it's hard to understand because
we are just almost completely diametrically opposed rules. I can think
of a situation. Let's say um myself or staff were trying to
avoid getting a a decision made by the council. And we did it by
organizing meeting between two, meeting between two, meeting between two, and
then meeting with one. And we took the individual's judgment on that and said,
"Okay, decision made, but it's something that should be a decision in an open
session." that it may not violate the law, but it
is certainly not transparent and it is certainly probably not good. Well,
something and if it's a decision made technically, it's probably not their
decision because you didn't make it before then. Well, but you can see the
potential like if if I then signed an IG based on that direction, I could get in
trouble for that. Yeah. Well, yeah, I should get in trouble for that.
Um, so, so again, the real distinction is legislative and quaso judicial
because it's legislative, there's just very few rules at home other than don't
meet more than two at a time. And quazo judicial sort of the accident, don't
meet with anybody ever, don't talk about it at all. and
and if you do let somebody know so that at the public hearing you know that
communication can be disclosed so the other side can have fairness and
respond that's help okay thank you for
clarifying sure that that all I had okie dokie uh
any questions last questions that work session
comments then there will be a brief break and regular council meeting will
start at 7. Stacy, is dinner here yet? You know
what? I haven't seen I'll go check.
I'll be nice and [Laughter]
although you know it's flavored tobacco band tonight.
Okay, I'll I'll grab some more chairs. You think? Yeah. Yeah. We will have high
school students.
Florida or something. That's true.
Will be here. God bless.
Well, you know what? The high school students, they weren't even supposed to
be using it anyway, so they shouldn't be coming.
I got my child.
That's good news. to get away with it. That was Yeah,
that's not great.
95 miles hour and the next person goes by 65 and get pulled over to speed.
Wow. not muted. We could hear all of that
whole conversation about the smoking and [Music]
kids talking about kids coming
and we heard how they shouldn't be doing it. I just wanted No, we didn't talk
about how they shouldn't be doing it.
I don't want kids.
[Music]
We didn't say just that you should. That's weird because I definitely muted.
I must have missed when I clicked. We could just keep it easy.
Mr. Mayor, you're on mic and recording. Great. Thank you, Stacey.
Hello, everybody. It is just a little after 7 for April 22nd regular meeting
of the Frisco Town Council. We're going to call the meeting to order. And with
that, let's have a a roll call, please. here. Incan here. Ryan here. Goldstein
here. Gibby here. And script check. Adrien is absent and Hold is absent.
Great. Thank you, Stacy. With that, we'll move on to our
um public comments. And I want to thank folks for coming forward with any public
comments. And just with the note of public comments are reserved for items
that are not already on the meeting's agenda. If you plan to make a comment on
an item already appearing on the agenda, please wait until the item is announced
and public comment is requested at that time. State your name, address for the
record, be topic specific, and limit comments to three minutes or less. No
council action is taken on public comments and council at council
meetings. Council takes public comments under advisement. And if a council and
or staff response is deemed necessary or appropriate, the individual making the
comment will receive a formal response from the town at a later date. It is
recommended to sign in at the welcome table at each meeting if providing
in-person comment and include contact information for follow-up communication.
With that, do we have any public comment in chambers?
Do we have any public comment online? No, Mr. No public comment in chambers or
online. We'll close public comment and we'll move on to um any council or mayor
comments. Just want to again thank public works staff for dealing with the
snow that we had our late late season snowfall and that all that mitigation
went really well. And thank the police department for working through our
shoulder shoulder season. Now, as we all know, we can from time to time have an
uptick in um some bad actors in the community on their way out of town. So,
thank the police department for you. With that, I'll close council and
mayor comments and move on to staff updates updates today, mayor. Great.
Thank you, Tom. Um we are flying people. Um
with uh with no staff updates tonight, um we'll move on to our consent agenda.
Any discussion or perhaps a motion? Mr. Mayor, I make a motion to approve
the consent agenda. We have a motion to approve the consent
agenda and a second. Please call the question. Adrien is absent. Ryan,
yes. Yes. Goldstein, yes. Allan, yes. Elders absent, and Incan, yes.
Great. Thank you, Stacy. With that, we'll move on to our first order agenda
item number one this evening. It's first reading of ordinance
25-07 an ordinance amending article six of chapter 110 of the code of ordinances
of the town of Frisco concerning tobacco product retail licensing and sale
regulations to prohibit the sale of flavored tobacco products and the sales
by dis sales by discontinuing of any tobacco products in order to safeguard
the public health particularly in the the health of
minors and I'll now turn it over to staff and that it's going to be Stacy
and Thad and Tom may have some information to add. She moved
team here. Um thank you mayor and council. Stacy now town clerk for the
record. Um the reason that you're hearing from me this evening on this one
is um because I oversee our licensing program for these retailers. Um just
wanted to briefly give um a shout out and thank you to Lindsay Joyce who
couldn't be here this evening but um she is our recreation and events director of
course but she helped me put together that uh nice staff report for your
packet. Um she also sits on the youth uh use tobacco use prevention uh work group
as well in the county. Um so really appreciate her participation in that. Um
so tonight you have the first reading of this ordinance. Um, you know, just to
remind all of you, as you're all aware, um, we actually skipped the item. I
don't the ET water service. I was just going to come back to the water service
agreement because that's been agendaized as number one. Totally right. And I
didn't even think I was just hungry for the spotlight, I guess. Yes. Let's
actually go with the agenda. Okay. To be continued. To be continued. Thank you,
Stacy. Yes. I I was comparing and I'm thank you for being flexible. Oh, thank
you for keeping us on point. Come on down. And with that, let me just
formalize our agenda item number one tonight, which is consideration of an
application for extratorial water services agreement for 0173 Summit
County Road uh 1041. And with that, we have Chris McInness, a public works
director and town engineer. Thanks. You may town council. Um yeah, we have
before you a application for extr territorial water in Frisco. Just to
give a little background since I think this is the first one we've had for a
couple of the members here. Um in 2023, the town passed an ordinance for extr
territorial uh water. This was a process to formalize um the requirements and the
process to serve water to people outside of the town of Frisco boundaries. Um
just kind of a high level overview of a few of the requirements. The main ones
is that anyone uh who will be served with extr territorial water uh has to be
connected to Frisco sanitation sewer. They have to uh pay and construct for
any improvements to the water system in order to be served by the water and they
either have to bring water rights to the town of Frisco or they have to pay an
inloo fee which then um assists the town for acquiring uh additional water rights
in the future. Um so before you we have an application for 0173 County Road 1041
and this property uh we have existing water infrastructure in County Road 1041
there. They are proposing uh to pay the inloo fee um in place of dedicating
water rights. Um and with this we recommend approval of the application
for extr territorial water uh based on the existing infrastructure in place to
serve them. they meet the requirements of the town code in the application and
the town staff has determined it would not cause detrimental impacts to the
town water system. And I'm here for any questions on this application.
Is that one house or they would be paying the uh the inloo
fee for one single family equivalent on the water rights?
Chris, can you just refresh my memory? What neighborhood is that in? So that is
um so it's unincorporated county and uh opposite of school road um off of
Highway 9. Um it's off of in there. So Frisco Heights if you will. Yeah. Just
so everyone has a reference of where we're talking. Yep. Cool. Any other
questions for Chris and the the fee and Lou Chris is
commensurate with our formula to for such a factor that we went through the
process. a a calculator and formula was developed
um when we passed the ordinance in 2023 and and then it yeah bases it off that
based on the uh the usage um for an equivalent amount of water rights.
Gotcha. Cool. Thank you. And a little more background for the folks. The
neighborhood of Frisco Heights is unique because we do have water infrastructure
running through there um in some places and this is another opportunity for
residents in that neighborhood to tap into our system. I I don't know the the
the totality of the infrastructure that's there, but it's a discussion
that's come up quite a bit in the past that we do have uh water manes already
in place and it's per the application the occupancy is already on the Frisco
sanitation system as well. Correct. Yeah. Okay, cool. Further questions with
that. We'll open it up to public comments right now. Chris, thanks. Just
give us a moment. If anyone would like to make a comment, please come forward
to the podium.
My name is Sharon I reside at 173 Fris uh County Road
1041. Um we've enjoyed the Summit County life for over 25 years starting
in 2001. 2008, we bought the 173 property knowing
that we had was already a 40-year-old structure and a 40-year-old well. Well,
now we're um almost 15 years
later. So, all I want is to be able to take a shower and not worry about
um running out of water. our grandson called to say, "Grandma, grandma, we
don't have any water." So, we've contact various
um well companies and things like that and they noticed we had a line running
in front of the home. So, they suggested that we apply to hook up to city water.
Thank you. Great. Thank you for your comment.
Bring it. Any other public comment online? No other public comment. I will
close public comment. We'll bring it back to council for any
clarifications. And just as another note, in in recent past, we've had other
neighborhoods that were on wells within Summit County, not not here in Frisco,
and their wells um for for they went dry is is what what
had happened in other communities. And as we continue over the next several
years, I would anticipate more and more folks, if we haven't had that
conversation yet, wanting to come into our system. Um, so this is just a a
natural progression of folks that are going from well into the city side of it
for the supply, for the consistency, and the sustainability of it, for their
habitation. So, thank you for that. And just a little background for everybody.
Any other comments, questions, or a motion? And just to be clear, we're
approve the what we're what we're voting on in what we're voting on is allowing
the occupant and the resident and the owner to pay for their residents to tap
into our infrastructure to come online with Frisco. and they're going to pay
instead of bringing water rights forward to us for a trade-off, they're just
going to pay the cash in loop. Just so we're all clear.
Mr. Mayor, I make a motion to approve the application for extra territorial
water service for 0173 Summit County Road 1040.
Second. Great. We have a motion and a second uh to approve agenda item number
one. Please call the question. Yes. Check. Adrienne is absent. Ryan, yes.
Kibby, yes. Goldstein, yes. Allan, yes. And Held is absent. Great. Thank you,
Stacy. With that, we'll close that. And a motion has passed. So, thank you for
coming in. With that, we'll move on to the very anticipated agenda item number
two. um which will be I'll read for the
record is first reading of ordinance 25-07 an ordinance amending article six
of the chapter 110 of the code of ordinances of the town of Frisco
concerning tobacco product retail licensing and sales
regulations I'm not stopping to prohibit the sale of flavored tobacco products
and the sale and sale by discontinuing any of the tobacco products in order to
safeguard the public health, particularly the health of minors. And
with that, we're going to bring it on over to Stacy and Thad and Tom.
Yeah. Um, so I will not repeat anything in the interest of time, but um, just
starting up where I left off, um, you all actually directed staff to come back
with this ordinance. It was during your February 25th work session, and so
council members Ryan and Goldstein may not remember this. um unless you
attended that. But um from your strategic plan that you all adopted in
late 2024, um you all mention council's public
service commitment um assuring a thriving future for the town of Frisco.
And your vision statement calls out supporting opportunities for community
well-being. And so those are two uh ways in which this ordinance really fits in
with your strategic plan. I won't sit here and browbeat you all about um too
many of the data and statistics that are available in the interest of time with
regard to um you know youth prevention and basically how these products and
these companies are essentially target targeting youth um with these flavors
and products um they're really driving the use of these products um and masking
the detrimental and um adverse effects um to health with flavor names like that
reflect breakfast cereals and desserts and fruity candy flavors. Um, you know,
almost 90% of adult daily smokers started smoking by the age of 18.
Smoking related illnesses cost Colorado almost $2 billion per year. Um, it's
quoted at about $1.8 billion. Um, these companies are super creative
and they're just continuing to try to sell their addictive products and this
is one way that um, with our home rule authority, we can really exercise um,
you know, a ban on these types of products for our community.
um federal agencies, you know, you all have been presented with through County
Youth and Family Services, um from the National Institute of Health, US
Department of Health and Human Services, and the FDA, uh just with countless
instances and reasons why these products are just adverse to the health of our
community, um particularly our youth. And um an interesting statistic that I
got from Becky Peltier over at County Youth and Family Services is that
tobacco and nicotine products are available in over
15,500 flavors nationwide right now. That is staggering. It's not just
cherry, strawberry, watermelon. It's gummy bear, cotton candy, pink lemonade,
uh crunch berry, all of these different types of names. And it's just
pretty staggering, I guess. Um so staff, you know, we're
recommending tonight that you vote to approve this ordinance on first reading,
um particularly due to the strategic plan language, our partnership and
continuing relationship with county youth and family services, uh the
direction of this council to bring forth this ordinance um that will reflect
these code amendments in this ban. And I'll turn it over to Thaad just to touch
specifically on the ordinance before you tonight.
Um, some relatively simple changes to the ordinance. There's a proposal to
broaden out the statement of legislative intent to better reflect the flavor ban
rather than just a prohibition of of sales to people who are under 21. Um, it
adopts the definition of the term coupon. Um, the term flavored tobacco
product and the term full retail price to accomplish the flavor ban and then
the prohibition on discounting. those provisions, those definitions and the
provisions that prohibit um sale of flavored tobacco products and and and
sale of any tobacco products through discounting methods is the language that
was proposed by the coalition that that visited us recently and is the language
um that is consistent with Dylan and Silverthorn's code adoption. I am
looking for a little direction. At the time I wrote the ordinance, I was not
aware uh as to whether a certain date had been chosen by the various
jurisdictions on which this prohibition should start. Um my understanding now is
that um that that desired date is January 1st of 2026. I left a blank in
there for 2025. Um obviously that time period will give um the town and the
other towns in the county some time to educate their retailers about the
upcoming prohibition and then some time to um rid themselves of stock in in
hand. Um with that I'm happy to answer any questions you might have on the
ordinance. I have a question maybe for you and maybe Stacy and this is not
really in relation to my position on this topic but for my own education. You
mentioned uh prohibition on flavors specifically. What would happen under
home rule if we wanted to ban flavored vodka?
We don't have a specific statutory authorization to do so. So you're really
not dealing with in in adopting this provision. And I know that Stacy has
said it's your home world authority, but in this instance, we don't need our home
authority because the the state through its legislative process adopted
provisions years ago said, "Hey, municipalities, if you want to regulate
in this area, you can." Right? So, so that's a very good question. I don't
know the answer. I wouldn't be terribly comfortable with it without a statutory
authorization, which we have for the cigarettes. We don't have Thank you for
that. Yep. And it's not just cigarettes, it's
nicotine products. Correct. I'm sorry. It's not just cigarettes. It's nicotine.
I Yeah, that includes vapes that, you know, tobacco product is very broadly
defined. Cigarettes, vapes, any any other device that can deliver nicotine
into your bloodstream. Right. Thanks. That y any other questions from the
team?
I should have mentioned just as part of your motion if someone will recite
January 1, 2026 be helpful. Your second reading
just when your deliberation comes up, I want to make sure that I I represent
something that I received from a council member. Got it. I'll get there after
public comments. So, with that, we'll uh move on to any public comments on
this item this evening. And with that, I'll open it up to the council chambers.
If anyone in chambers has a comment, please come on up.
Good evening. My name is Esau Hernandez. I'm from the Youth Empowerment Society
of Summit or YES and I'm here to speak in favor of
banning all flavored nicotine products. We need to protect our classmates and
younger kids from getting addicted to nicotine. And I am Yiel Gomez and I am
also from Yes, I completely agree. Flavored products are designed to
attract teens like us and it's working. We've seen too many of our peers get
addicted and it needs to stop. Livered products are a huge reason why
teens start using nicotine. 93.2% of youth ages 12 to 17 who have
ever used the ecigarette reported their first product was flavored like candy
and fruit flavors. And I have personally seen this myself as a high school
student. This is a tobacco industry directly targeting
us. In a memo from RJ Reynolds, they said, "Make a cigarette which is
obviously youth oriented. This could involve cigarette names, blends,
flavors, and marketing techniques. For example, a flavor which could be
candyike but give the satisfaction of a cigarette.
We have seen some of our friends who have been curious about the different
flavors of vapes and other nicotine products and from there their their
addiction journey has started. And even though there are federal laws in place,
local tobacco retailers find ways around them with no other way to ensure
compliance at the local level. If flavors weren't available at
all, fewer students would even think about trying them. Not to mention the
long-term health risk. According to the CDC website, they state that nicotine
can harm brain development, which doesn't stop growing till about the age
of 25. They also state that it can harm the parts of the brain that control
attention, learning, mood, and impulse control. And we can't afford to let that
happen to our generation. This isn't just about
personal choices. It's about public health in our c in our county. Towns
have a responsibility to protect young people from a lifetime addiction. Most
kids in high school are already developing this lifetime addiction.
This is an in the 2023 Healthy Kids Colorado survey reported that among
those underage Summit high school students who have tried to buy tobacco
or vaping products in a store. The percentage who were not refused because
of age was 81%. We believe protecting kids is the
most important. This ban is a necessary step. Over 400 Summit middle school and
high school students filled out postcards in support of this ban. We
brought 40 of of them with us today. We urge the town of Frisco to take action
now. Let's make Summit County a continued leader in protecting the youth
from nicotine addiction. Thank you. Thank you.
Any other public comments in the chambers?
Good evening, mayor and council members. I'm Eric Hador, Colorado government
relations director for the American Heart Association. I'm here today to
express the organization's support of the town's efforts to end the sale of
all flavored tobacco products and to thank you for the work that you're doing
on this. Uh tobacco and nicotine use are major risk factors for heart disease and
stroke. Tobacco use accounts for the death of
approximately 168,000 Americans each year from cardiovascular disease. And in
Colorado, tobacco kills over 5,000 people every year. You heard from the
students how detrimental these products are to their peers. But the problem
doesn't stop with youth. flavored tobacco products, particularly menthol
cigarettes, disproportionately harm communities of color, lowincome
populations, and LGBTQ plus individuals. These groups have been targeted for
decades through predatory marketing practices. And the results is higher
rates of tobacco related related illness and deaths in the communities. Despite
any claims, flavored vapes, nicotine pouches, and other smokeless products
are not FDA approved for smoking sessation and are not safe alternatives
to cigarettes. They deliver a far more highly addictive nicotine. They are
riddled with potential harmful chemicals and often adults will be dual users of
products. Um, again, I just want to thank you for your efforts on this and
uh ask that you move swiftly to end the sale of all flavored tobacco products.
Thank you. Thank you. Any other public comments?
Good evening, mayor. Um, council members. My name is Jody Ragi. I'm a
regional director with the campaign for tobaccof free kids. I've been with my
organization over 18 years, but I've been doing importantly local, state, and
federal tobacco control work for over 22 years. A lot of that work being here in
Colorado. So, really just wanted to be here tonight to say thank you. Um, thank
you for your important work to protect Frisco's kids, to listening to your
community, listening to your youth. Your work couldn't come at a more important
time. You've heard references to the FDA, to CDC, to the Office for Smoking
and Health, all those agencies, as you know, are being dismantled. Um, so your
work becomes even more critical. And that reference earlier to cigarettes
versus nicotine, there used to be state um obstacles in state statute that would
have limited your authority to do what you're considering here tonight. my
organization along with Eric Hador's American Heart Association, we worked to
make sure that our cities and counties have the authority that you need to do
this really important work. So, it's with real real pride to stand here
tonight to see you um and other communities around you doing the same
work and you join 400 communities from across the country. The one thing I'll
just say is that we all know the rates are coming down. We've been successful
since cities and counties have had the authority to do this work. And that's
why it makes it even more critical that we don't take our foot off the gas as we
see these rates go down. We know they're going down because places like Frisco
and other places around the state are passing really critical, important
policies to bring these rates down. And you may remember that Colorado used to
lead the nation in vaping use across the country. Pridefully, we no longer have
that headline because of the work that's being done. And we need to keep doing
that work because the tobacco industry continues to innovate. So you heard
about the flavored products, but what you may not see or hear are products. I
brought one just to show and tell. Um you can order these, but these are the
products are teachers are seeing in the schools. This functions as a ballpoint
pen, but it's also a vape pen. So when people say, "Why aren't parents doing
more? Why aren't teachers doing more?" I think arguably we can all look at these
products and say they have a certain intention. And it's really to be
concealed, discreet, and really easy to use by our kids. And so it's with these
policy changes that we protect the next generation. And we lead by example. And
you're doing exactly that. So I just wanted to say again, thank you for your
work here to protect your community for Frisco's kids and importantly for being
a compass because other communities will follow your lead. So thank you for what
you're doing here tonight. Great. Thank you. Any other public comment in
chambers?
None. Any online? No, Mr. Mayor. Thank you, Stacey. With that, we'll close
public comment and come back to council and staff for any further discussion.
Tom, you got some discussion? I'll just uh read what um uh council member script
checking wrote and wanted me to bring up. So,
um, word for word, the the flavored nicotine ban. I would just say that I'm
not a proponent of telling businesses what they cannot
sell. Is it possible to put this on next year's ballot as a mega tax? Question.
Perhaps nicotine funds wouldn't totally drop. I'm not sure if this is a good
idea or not. So, thank you for sharing. Any other discussion or comments on
councel or a motion?
What what did you wanted to add to the ordinance number and setting
um January 1st of 2026 as the effective date in section 3.
Mr. Mayor, I make an enthusiastic motion to approve the first
reading of 256 uh with an effective date of July uh
January 1, 202 January 20 January 1st, 2026.
Got it. For that, we have a motion that's been made for agenda item number
three,
two um with an effective date of January 1, 2026. Do we have a second?
Second. Great. We have a motion and a second.
Please call the question. Alan, yes. Eld is absent. Inken, yes. Scrap check.
Adrian is absent. Ryan, yes. KB. Yes. And Goldstein, yes.
Got it. And with that, this motion has passed. Thank you everyone for their
discussion this evening and comments. And with that, we'll move on to agenda
item number three, which is resolution
25-07, approving a grant agreement with the Colorado Housing and Finance
Authority for additional funding to support the purchase of 101 West Main
for the purpose of affordable housing. And with that, we're going to open it up
to staff, which I believe is going to be THAAD.
Sure. Um the title says it all again. Um, this
is a a grant agreement between the town and the Colorado Housing Finance
Authority. um under which the town would be would
receive um excuse me $5 million in grant funding with the understanding that that
$5 million would be used to purchase the property at 101 Main currently owned by
NHP and the same brush stroke essentially to give a long-term ground
lease back to NHP for that property for a nominal set. As we've discussed
previously, it's a way for the town to put $5 million into that project through
grant money from the state. Um, this is this is the first time you have read
this, but it is connected with the second reading of 251, which is the next
and so we'll come back around to that, but in the meantime, I'm happy to answer
any questions on the grant agreement itself. Cool. Thanks, Sad. Sure. Any
other staff comments? Any questions from council on this
topic? With that, we'll open it up to any public comments in
chambers. Seeing none, any public comment online? None there. I will close
public comment. And we'll come back to council comment, questions, and or a
motion.
A motion to approve resolution 25-7 approving grant agreement with
Colorado Housing and Finance Authority Chaffa for additional funding to support
the purchase of 101 West Main for the purpose of affordable housing.
A second. Yep. With that, we have a a motion to approve agenda item number
three. In a second, please call the question. Eld is absent. Inken, yes.
Repean is absent. Ryan, yes. Kibby, Goldstein, and Allan, yes. With that,
the motion has passed. One thing I would add is I'll ask Neil to check in with
the clerk before he leaves tonight, please.
Um, with that, let's move on to old business, which is going to be agenda
item number four, which is second reading of ordinance 25-01, an
ordinance authorizing a purchase, sale, and leaseback agreement between the town
of Frisco and NHPF West Main LLC for the
property located at 101 West Main for the purpose
purposes of affordable housing and development. And with that, we're going
to open that up to staff and I believe we're back to that again. I think you're
right, mayor. Um, prior grant agreement was how we get the
money and this agreement with NHP is what the town does with that money, that
$5 million. Council, this is a second reading. Um and and just the edification
of our new members. State statute requires approval by ordinance anytime
the town goes to sell a piece of real property or to authorize a lease of real
property as the landlord that uh is longer in term than one year. So in this
deal we are purchasing a property. So you wouldn't need the ordinance of that.
But then we're turning right around and we're leasing it out a long-term ground
lease for 75 years if my memory serves me. Um so that's the reason we're doing
this by ordinance. The this was approved on first reading by all members present
at that first reading. Um the it has changed the agreement itself has changed
since first reading in a couple of fairly minor respects. The first is to
uh it's been revised to set a deadline on NHP to resolve to Chaffa's
satisfaction concerns that Chaffa may have and does have with some of the
title issues on that property. So in other words, short way of saying that is
Chaffa is not going to give us our $5 million grant until they are satisfied
with the state of title on that property. And accordingly, this
agreement has been revised to say, "And we're not going to buy the property from
you with the $5 million until we get it from Chaffa, so you have to satisfy
CHF's concerns about title." Our grant commitment ends on July the
31st. Their obligation to resolve the title issues to Chaffa's satisfaction.
Um, that deadline is June the I'm sorry, July the 15th. What we don't want to
face is a situation where we have to go into Chapa after the deadline and say
gosh we just didn't get it done in time. So if so that's that's the significant
that's the substantive change um from the first version of the agreement.
There are also some changes to the ground lease that is an exhibit to this
purchase sale and lease back agreement. Those changes were made to make the
ground lease for 101 Maine more consistent with the ground lease that
had been negotiated and recently approved for 602 Galina. There were it's
primarily having to do with insurance requirements on the part of NHP. They
were fairly I guess what I would say
non-material changes to the lease agreement but there were some revisions
there as well. Um, with that, I'm happy to answer any questions, but as I say
that the idea is we buy the property from NHP and we turn right back around
and we lease it to them under a long-term remedies all at the same
table. Great. Thank you, Y. Any questions for
that? Any further staff comments? With that, let's open it up to public
comments. Any public comments in chamber? Not seeing any. We'll go to
public comments online. No public comment online. I will close
public public comment and we'll come back
to council for any further discussion or
motion. Mr. Mayor, I make a motion we [Music]
approve the second reading of ordinance 25-01.
Thank you. Great. We have a motion and a second to
approve our second reading um for our first item of bold business
this evening. And with that, please call the question.
Yes. Yes. Is absent. Incant. Yes. Prep check. Adrienne is absent. Ryan, yes.
Great. Stacy.
And with that, we're going to roll into our last agenda item this evening.
Agenda item number five is second reading of ordinance 25-06, an ordinance
amending chapter 180 of the code of ordinances of the town of Frisco
concerning zoning by amending the section 180-5.2.9
2.9 concerning licensing requirements and limitations for the retail marijuana
businesses in order to create consistency between the license renewal
fees for the town's processing of applications for renewal of retail and
medical marijuana facility licenses. And with that, we're going to turn it over
to stop, which is that one more time. I would have said
sl you point at
me second reading again um this ordinance was approved by all members
present uh on first reading it is a pretty simple change to our uh licensing
or code provisions concerning licensing of medical and retail marijuana
facilities as discussed at the last meeting. Our code currently provides a
$3,000 application fee for both a medical and retail initial license
application. But then when it comes to renewal of that application, the medical
fee drops to 1500 and the retail renewal fee stays at 3,000. For the reasons
discussed at the last meeting, both legal and practical or administrative
staff is recommending that those two be brought in line so that for each type of
application or each type of license, the initial application is 3,000. We know it
was 1500. With that, I'm happy to answer any questions.
Any questions for Thaad? Great. No further questions for
THAAD. Thank you, Thad. With that, we'll open up the public comments. I seeing
none in chambers. Any online? none on land line. We'll close public
comments and come back to council for any further discussion or a motion.
Mr. Mayor, I make a motion to approve the second reading of ordinance 25-06.
Second. Thank you, Zach.
Um, he's fall asleep. With that, Stacy, we have a motion in a
second for second reading of ordinance 25-06. Please call the question. Yes.
Goldstein, yes. Allan, yes. Held is absent. Inken, yes. Scrub Check. Adrien
is absent. Ryan, yes. Great. Thank you, Stacy.
With that, this is really the last item of this evening. So, with that, we're
going to
want to say the wrong word. Is it a jour? Yeah, we're going to counsel.
Okay. We're going to adjourn a regular council meeting. I wanted to say pause
or whatever. Um, and we're going to move into a
uh I'm going to say it wrong. The Frisco Housing Authority
um meeting and we're going to start that. And with that, we've done this, I
think, once before with this group. So, we're going to call another roll call.
Do we need to formally adjurnn, please? Motion and second to He takes a motion,
then he just adjourns. Mr. Mayor, I think
motion to adjurnn or adjourn. Next meeting.
Unanimous vote to adjurnn. Yes. Got it. Thank you.
Um, yes. We'll call for the Frisco Community Housing Development Authority.
Allan, yes, here. Inken, yes. Ryan, here. Thank you. Goldstein here. Here.
And just for the record, Script Tech Adrian is absent and Held is also
absent. Great.
And with that, thank you, Stacy. We're going to open up the floor to public
comment. Public comments re reserved for this item not already on the meeting
agenda and follow the same policy and procedure for town council
meetings. Do we have any public comment on this item this evening? Seeing none
in chambers, any online? None online. We'll keep moving
forward. We'll close public comment. And do we have any further uh mayor or
council comments?
or commission or yeah commission.
Um and with that with no comments that we don't have any uh additions or
agendas to the
ordinance and with that you're just approving minutes from the previous
meeting on consent. Approve the minutes from the cons. Yeah, it is a consent
agenda. So with that, our first item, just to follow the same order, I'm just
organizing my thoughts out loud to everybody, is we're going to approve the
consent agenda should there be no opposition. So with that, I would
entertain a motion of discussion about the consent agenda, which is the meeting
minutes from our last meeting, or take a motion to approve
them. Make a motion to approve the uh consent agenda.
Second. Great. We have a motion to approve the consent agenda and a second.
Please call the question. Goldstein, yes. Allan, yes.
Incan, yes. Scrub Check. Adrian is absent. Ryan, yes. And Kibby, yes.
Great. Thanks everybody. Um, with that, we'll move on to our first order of new
business, which is agenda item number one, resolution.
Wow.
FCHDA25-03 approving a second amended and restated development agreement
between the town of Frisco and the Frisco Community Housing Development
Authority, the NHP Foundation, and NHPF West Main LLC as amended and restatement
of the development agreement between the town of Frisco and the NHP Foundation
dated as of April 8th, 2025 as related to the affordable housing development to
be constructed at 602 Galina Street. There was an error in that title in the
reference to 101 main in the first instance. It's all that should also be a
reference to 602 Galina as was the last one. So, it's just a typographic error
in that title. This is all about 602 Galina, nothing
else. Got it. Super. We will. So with that everybody
if we can when we make a motion we'll just reread it insert 602 wherever 101
may appear um and it's not the worst one to read. Um so with that we'll bring it
back to for staff discussion. Sure. This is the identical agreement. Nothing has
changed from the form of this agreement that was approved by two readings of a
council ordinance. Right. This is a 602 Galina agreement that you approved on
second reading at the very last council meeting
with my members serves me. Um you'll you'll re you'll recall the the
substantive change between first reading and second reading was the filling of an
$8 million gap. Um this the agreement now comes before the housing authority
for approval. And the reason that the housing authority is being asked to be a
party to this agreement is that um by doing so it opens up the opportunity for
the housing authority to become a very small percentage owner in the you know
limited liability company that gets set up to develop this property. And by way
of that minor amount of ownership, the housing authority can then grant a a tax
exemption. It can be a tax exempt project. So So basically by the
authorities's participation, a tax exemption can be achieved to the project
that wouldn't exist otherwise. Having said that, all of the
language is identical to what was previously approved. Um, I know that NHP
has since proposed a change, a substantive change to the terms of the
unconditional guarantee that is a part of the loan agreement that is following
this document. Um, I'm going to let
NHP explain the nature of the request. Happy to take any questions on it.
Presuming that you as the housing authority decide
to approve this agreement with this amendment, the amendment will have to
come back before council again for two readings of an ordinance because it is a
material change to the deal that was already approved that has to be approved
by ordinance we discussed. With that, I'm going to turn
it over to Tom or NHP if they'd like to address the change proposed and then we
can come back. as part of public comment on the item or
just invite NHP up to right talk about their
proposed change. You got it. With that, Neil, can you give us a details? I was
going to say summary, but we probably need to know a little bit more than that
on the proposed
change. Proposed change is from a repayment guarantee to a construction
completion guarantee. which is what we've essentially been
offering uh from from the get-go. And and the reason why this is important is
in many ways this is a a a deal that is not just on Frisco's radar screen, but
is on the national
radar screen. uh as one of, if not the first 501c3 new construction
uh workforce middle income deals. Currently, NHP
uh is is working on two similar portfolios that are are slated to to
close soon after this. 2,000 units in Washington DC and 1500 in M Minnesota.
uh a repayment guarantee is treated substantially different by S&P than a
construction completion guarantee. And it, you know, based on our rating, which
is what we're using to actually be able to do the loan for this
deal at, you know, as high a leverage and as low a rate as we're able to get.
um a repayment guarantee for reasons that perhaps only S&P can truly explain
takes it out of the bucket that they look at as governmental subsidy loans,
not really a loan, doesn't go against an HP's debt limit, and puts it into real
loan goes against our debt limit. Prevents us to do future business. And
it's not so much that $8 million is is the difference, but on those other two
deals which are looking to this deal, you know, as the lead example and are
being structured like it, uh the numbers are substantially larger
and we're sort of in a in a pickle. Now, luckily they they don't really view
construction guarantees that way. They're viewed as sort of a normal
contingent guarantee, you know, that we give all the time to tax credit
investors. I think it it ultimately provides I think you the safety that
that you that you want and you need, which is we're not going to leave you a
half finishedish building and walk out of town. That we're going to finish what
we started and it's going to pass all the inspections and and get leased up.
So
that's the um the long and short of it. Gotcha. Thank you, Neil. Any questions
for Neil on the amendment or addendum? Questions for
Thaad? Great. No questions. Thanks, Neil. We'll open it up to any public
comment. No public comment in chambers. Any online? None online. We'll close
public comment, come back to council for any further
discussion or commissioners for any further
discussion. With the approval of this, this goes
back to council though regular session. Correct. Because we made a change to it.
It'll come back for two readings and then not have to come back here because
we approved it here. Correct.
It doesn't matter if we did
from the standpoint of the project starting on time, it has
no material effect because you're already under a development agreement
with NHP. It would change the nature of the unconditional guarantee related to
the loan um but not the underlying terms of the
development agreement.
Um what's the consensus of staff on this?
Well, staff has not had a whole lot of time to talk about it, but you know, it
to to me it it and I'm guessing that perhaps if I heard more from the
attorneys, it might be a little different, but um and so I suggest you
ask that question as well. But um in either case, if we were at the point
where a a project was going to default and we were going to be left with an
unfinished building, we would be in litigation whether we were trying to get
our money back from a loan or we were trying to get the project finished by
who promised to finish it. So, I kind of look at at it the same way that as long
as there's an unconditional guarantee to finish the project, we're probably okay.
Plus, in either case, we would not pay any further on that loan, which is going
to get drawn over time. If we were in that position, we would stop loaning the
money um and would hold back until such time
as either somebody else started to build that building again and we needed to put
that money in or they started to build that building again. Good clarity. Thank
you. Did you have anything to add to that? Not to add to it. I I would
suggest that as this language is brought back before council for another couple
readings amendment that we invite this is John's language right so I can
comment on it but John can speak with a more educated voice on the risks and the
risk beingated and and the risks not um but I don't disagree with with what said
and certainly we do have that next reading to discuss a further
good question it is anyone else. Has everyone had some time to to to at least
have some discussions about what this change is?
Cool.
Great. With that, I would entertain a motion one way or the other. Uh, did I
hear that we have to reread it and um No, I think you can just approve the I
just read resolution. Yeah, it looks good, right? Noting the changes to the
unconditional guarantee. I make a motion we approve resolution FCHDA25-03
with changes to the agreement indicated um by NHP's red line of the
unconditional guarantee as
with as stated by town attorney uh is that good enough that is
fine motion yeah the record will reflect motion I'm sure we have a motion do we
have a Second. Great. We have a motion and a
second to approve resolution FCHDA25-03. Stacy, please call the
question. Ryan, yes. Kibby, yes. Goldstein, yes. Allan, yes. Held is
absent. Inken, yes. And script check is absent. Great. Thank you, Stacy.
And with that, yes, I'd just like to thank you for that. Uh, I I will say as
an organization that's 100% smokefree in its buildings, we uh we appreciate your
earlier vote, but that unfortunately there will be flavored vodka at the
closing dinner. So, Julie
noted what flavor
with that I would entertain. Having completed all business of the Frisco
Housing Authority, I missed a word. With that, I would entertain a motion to
adjourn. Mayor, we like
to motion. Seconded. All those in favor? I. We are adjourned. We already
adjourned the first meeting. or