1 00:42:14,079 --> 00:42:19,560 That's weird. Supposed to auto adjust. 2 01:17:40,960 --> 01:17:49,280 No, they're reconstructing their entrance a little bit. They just 3 01:17:46,560 --> 01:17:57,480 constructed. They did it wrong. It doesn't meet ADA requirements. 4 01:17:53,679 --> 01:17:57,480 I'll tell you wrong. 5 01:17:57,600 --> 01:18:00,760 You're good. 6 01:18:15,120 --> 01:18:24,040 We just have it celebrating Maya. Yeah. Yeah. 7 01:18:24,800 --> 01:18:28,080 I'm bringing my daughter 8 01:18:30,880 --> 01:18:33,440 I talk 9 01:18:36,760 --> 01:18:46,199 about is he he 10 01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:46,199 uh he texted me 11 01:18:48,239 --> 01:18:53,440 he was um no I 12 01:18:53,880 --> 01:18:57,679 can't he was flying 13 01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:06,640 at 2:00. No, 14 01:19:03,239 --> 01:19:10,840 actually just getting out of the city. We'll have time before work session, 15 01:19:13,920 --> 01:19:20,159 but he was going through all the construction, so 16 01:19:18,239 --> 01:19:27,920 Well, I think Tammy's presentation and Zach are pretty. Yes, they are. 17 01:19:23,560 --> 01:19:35,239 Maybe for a little bit. Yeah. Well, our first item we don't have. 18 01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:35,239 Yeah, we have to hold 19 01:19:57,360 --> 01:20:01,880 One thing I didn't think would be 20 01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:04,480 I 21 01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:12,320 didn't 22 01:20:13,239 --> 01:20:17,239 always adding 23 01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:34,159 came from this morning and closed for like three hours. Really? I texted I 24 01:20:32,239 --> 01:20:38,199 texted I was like, "How the hell it's going to open?" But I have my computer. 25 01:20:36,239 --> 01:20:43,840 So apparently just an accident. Just an 26 01:20:41,880 --> 01:20:50,719 accident. You're right here. You're right here. 27 01:20:45,719 --> 01:20:50,719 Um take your time. We're 28 01:20:52,000 --> 01:21:02,080 So Chris McInness reported to me at the TPPR inner mountain transportation 29 01:20:58,640 --> 01:21:09,080 planning region meeting last Friday that a construction project on a major 30 01:21:06,159 --> 01:21:15,800 reconstruction of Glenwood Canyon this year is going to have 31 01:21:11,800 --> 01:21:22,640 24hour holes. Wow. In the canyon. In the canyon. like anticipated holes or 32 01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:26,840 random. Well, like I certain they're going to put out information to the 33 01:21:24,239 --> 01:21:37,080 public just like they do on the spring project. Um, but I mean that long and 34 01:21:31,600 --> 01:21:37,080 behold on I7 major issues. 35 01:21:41,840 --> 01:21:49,480 So anyway, morning Stacy, we ready? All right, everyone. This is calling to 36 01:21:48,239 --> 01:21:54,400 order. It's calling to 37 01:21:51,480 --> 01:22:03,480 order. Frisco Town Council work session for April 22nd. First up 38 01:21:58,199 --> 01:22:03,480 on the agenda today is 39 01:22:05,280 --> 01:22:12,000 yes the US Forest Service backyard public comment letter from the town. So, 40 01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:20,480 I'm hoping that you've all had a chance to review the draft um that was in your 41 01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:25,920 packet. Um this is the second time this would be the second time that we would 42 01:22:22,159 --> 01:22:32,360 be submitting comments to uh the US Forest Service process that's going on 43 01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:38,320 that was presented to you uh at two meetings ago. 44 01:22:35,440 --> 01:22:41,320 Um so the public comment period goes through 45 01:22:41,400 --> 01:22:48,800 um the date is actually there's actually two different deadlines. One it depends 46 01:22:46,960 --> 01:22:54,239 on what you're commenting on. The comments that we're making follow the 47 01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:58,480 first deadline but it is the deadline is before your next meeting. So, we'll be 48 01:22:56,560 --> 01:23:04,320 able to get this in front of you so that you could indicate to the mayor whether 49 01:23:02,080 --> 01:23:10,560 it's okay for him to sign this and turn it in in its current form. If you'd like 50 01:23:07,679 --> 01:23:16,159 revisions to that, anything that you'd like to 51 01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:20,920 discuss. So, I I read it. I have nothing to add or take away from it. Anyone 52 01:23:17,920 --> 01:23:20,920 else? 53 01:23:22,080 --> 01:23:30,719 The consensus is to Tom that all good and we I'll let the mayor know that you 54 01:23:28,080 --> 01:23:36,280 said that. Okay. So, you're already at this. Okay. So, no replies needed to the 55 01:23:33,280 --> 01:23:36,280 mayor. 56 01:23:36,400 --> 01:23:45,400 Okay. That's awesome. Next uh next up on the agenda 57 01:23:41,040 --> 01:23:53,199 uh we do have we do have two new council members with us and uh here today with 58 01:23:48,639 --> 01:23:57,280 us is uh Emmy Tanoi who I think is when I went through this gave the best 59 01:23:54,800 --> 01:24:01,440 training presentation I've had as far as some very interesting 60 01:23:59,159 --> 01:24:07,840 details and her topic tonight is going to be CERS elected officials on boarding 61 01:24:04,280 --> 01:24:13,520 training and Uh, I think dad, you'll probably add some comments at some 62 01:24:09,600 --> 01:24:17,760 point, too. Please do. Tammy, please go ahead. Thank you very 63 01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:22,639 much. And good afternoon, everybody. Thank you so much for having me back. I 64 01:24:19,600 --> 01:24:27,040 guess it's only been what, a year? About a year. Yeah, a year. Yeah. So, I I 65 01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:32,400 really appreciate the opportunity to come back and especially to meet the two 66 01:24:29,920 --> 01:24:38,480 new members of the council. How long have you guys been in this position now? 67 01:24:36,320 --> 01:24:44,880 about two months. Two months. Would you say that third meeting? How's that? Is 68 01:24:42,880 --> 01:24:51,760 it everything you ever dreamed that would be and more? We we unfortunately 69 01:24:48,719 --> 01:24:57,280 they they hopped in right at some really heavy times of some decision making. So, 70 01:24:54,639 --> 01:25:02,239 we've had some very long meetings uh for them and uh this one's a little lighter 71 01:24:59,920 --> 01:25:07,280 tonight. So, hope that would be the case. Yeah. And 72 01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:11,679 the other two, um, how long have you guys been on the council? Probably be 73 01:25:09,280 --> 01:25:15,600 going my second year. Okay. Actually, probably around this time. Yes, I'm 74 01:25:13,199 --> 01:25:23,760 starting my second year. Came here second year, but when I was on 2014, 75 01:25:18,880 --> 01:25:28,880 2018. Okay, great. Good to know. Yeah. Um, and you know, Fed was talking about 76 01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:35,280 litigation around your charter and it reminded me that I owe him an 77 01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:41,280 apology because I actually wrote that charter back in the day. And I have to 78 01:25:38,480 --> 01:25:45,679 admit that I didn't really much about that particular part of the charter. You 79 01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:49,920 know, it's one of those things where you just borrow it from somewhere else and 80 01:25:47,600 --> 01:25:55,520 you're like, "Sounds good to me, right?" And and then and you get told it means 81 01:25:52,560 --> 01:26:00,000 more than your daughter did way alone. So yeah, and I I think you know it's 82 01:25:58,000 --> 01:26:04,719 okay. It was an okay result at the end of the day, but it was definitely 83 01:26:02,360 --> 01:26:08,639 shocking. The first time I heard that all matters really does mean all 84 01:26:06,480 --> 01:26:13,360 matters. I'm like should have been a little more careful but yeah, it's 85 01:26:11,440 --> 01:26:19,040 worked out well for us. Yeah. And it's a good charter. I will say it's one that 86 01:26:15,440 --> 01:26:23,840 I'm very very proud of. And uh I happen to know that you know with imitation 87 01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:29,280 being this dearest form of flattery that the fact that kind of somewhat 88 01:26:26,320 --> 01:26:34,239 replicated itself I I think it means that it's a good charter. 89 01:26:31,280 --> 01:26:40,800 in Hayden among other places. Curious where you know you know you one of your 90 01:26:37,760 --> 01:26:46,880 close neighbors has a very close version of it and changes and some I think 91 01:26:44,239 --> 01:26:52,400 fairly vital parts but one of your close neighbors has that chart of two. So 92 01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:57,679 today we're going to talk about uh five lesser known things about the elected 93 01:26:54,880 --> 01:27:02,719 officials job and you can tell me whether I'm on the mark or or not in 94 01:27:00,560 --> 01:27:08,480 terms of what I do with some of the lesser known aspects of the job. Um but 95 01:27:06,159 --> 01:27:14,560 first of all congratulations to you on your appointment and to you all on your 96 01:27:11,280 --> 01:27:18,639 continued service to the the town. Um it it really is a wonderful thing when 97 01:27:16,560 --> 01:27:23,440 citizens step up to serve in their communities because it's not something 98 01:27:20,960 --> 01:27:29,040 you have to do on jury duty and it involves a lot of work and some of it is 99 01:27:26,520 --> 01:27:34,239 thankless and it involves a lot of late nights. So you know the fact that you're 100 01:27:31,520 --> 01:27:40,159 stepping up to lead your community is really a a wonderful thing. Uh we do at 101 01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:45,199 CERSA have some resources for elected officials. So please check out our 102 01:27:42,159 --> 01:27:50,320 website at cersa.org. org. Uh we were also very much instrumental in writing 103 01:27:47,360 --> 01:27:54,800 that publication that is before you and we'll be refreshing that I think in the 104 01:27:52,639 --> 01:28:02,320 next year or two. But for now I think it's still a a pretty legit source of 105 01:27:58,159 --> 01:28:08,239 sort of you know plain English um talk about liability areas and how you can 106 01:28:05,679 --> 01:28:14,320 increase uh your effectiveness from a governance standpoint. 107 01:28:11,040 --> 01:28:18,239 So just a little bit about CERSA because sometimes I'll get through an hour of 108 01:28:16,400 --> 01:28:23,239 talking about you know what we're going to talk about and then the only question 109 01:28:20,159 --> 01:28:28,560 I'll get is and what is CERSA again? I just want to say that CERSA is 110 01:28:26,480 --> 01:28:33,679 actually your public energy selfinsurance. 111 01:28:31,440 --> 01:28:39,760 Frisco and the other communities that belong to CERSA actually created CERSA 112 01:28:36,560 --> 01:28:44,719 by intergovernmental agreement to be uh essentially your insurance provider. So 113 01:28:42,560 --> 01:28:50,719 among other things we provide property and liability coverage to uh the 90% of 114 01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:56,320 cities and towns throughout Colorado that are CERSA members. And so many 115 01:28:53,840 --> 01:29:01,679 times when there are claims or litigation against the town, they do 116 01:28:59,120 --> 01:29:08,719 trigger coverage. And so we become an involved partner with the town to uh 117 01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:15,480 ensure a resolution that is legally sound and works uh from your standpoint 118 01:29:12,159 --> 01:29:21,760 as well as ours. So that's what we do at Starstone. Also, we very much view the 119 01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:26,320 governing body as sort of at the very top uh not in terms of just, you know, 120 01:29:24,400 --> 01:29:33,040 being literally at the very top of the org chart, but really being a critical 121 01:29:29,280 --> 01:29:38,159 part of risk management. I think you all set the tone for the community as a 122 01:29:35,840 --> 01:29:43,840 whole. And so whatever tone you're setting can really have consequences 123 01:29:41,199 --> 01:29:49,440 from a liability standpoint. You know, when things are dysfunctional in a 124 01:29:45,920 --> 01:29:54,639 community, that tends to reveal itself in many ways, but in part in the form of 125 01:29:52,159 --> 01:29:59,199 claims. Would you back me up on that? I know you've had your share of troubled 126 01:29:57,280 --> 01:30:04,880 communities that, you know, have been fortunate to have you um you know, 127 01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:08,639 working with them from a standpoint, but isn't it true? Absolutely. The better 128 01:30:06,960 --> 01:30:13,280 the council works together, the better the community work, 129 01:30:11,040 --> 01:30:20,159 the better the whole team um in in the town work as well. 130 01:30:16,560 --> 01:30:24,400 So today's topics and uh please take a quick look at the this topic list and 131 01:30:22,400 --> 01:30:28,239 tell me if there are any other topics that you would like to cover or if you 132 01:30:26,320 --> 01:30:32,719 think of any as we're we're talking please uh let me know because I think 133 01:30:30,239 --> 01:30:37,600 between dad and myself we'll be able to cover them. though. Number one, in terms 134 01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:43,120 of things you might not have thought about in terms of your positions, uh the 135 01:30:40,560 --> 01:30:49,440 need to consider private communications to be mostly a thing of the past. Maybe 136 01:30:46,639 --> 01:30:55,040 that's just a tad exaggerated, but I think it's pretty close to the mark that 137 01:30:52,159 --> 01:31:00,880 you know the transparency laws that govern your communications as well as 138 01:30:57,600 --> 01:31:06,800 the expectations of the citizen uh does mean uh that private communications 139 01:31:03,440 --> 01:31:12,400 really um need to be done very very cautiously if at all. And we'll talk in 140 01:31:09,920 --> 01:31:17,760 detail about each of these. Uh here's another one. You weren't just elected to 141 01:31:14,400 --> 01:31:23,040 be a legislator at the municipal level, you are now a judge, too. 142 01:31:20,280 --> 01:31:26,800 Congratulations, judges. Um, did that surprise you a little bit or were you 143 01:31:24,719 --> 01:31:32,400 familiar enough with sort of what goes on uh on the town council that you were, 144 01:31:31,120 --> 01:31:37,679 you know, you weren't shocked to discover, hey, I have a quasi judicial 145 01:31:34,880 --> 01:31:42,880 role now. That surprised me. I learned that. Yeah. Yeah. And the rules of 146 01:31:40,480 --> 01:31:47,360 engagement, as we'll discuss, are like radically different between your 147 01:31:44,960 --> 01:31:53,280 legislative role and your quasi judicial role. Social media. Who's on social 148 01:31:50,719 --> 01:31:57,080 media? Well, who's not on social media? Right. I have not 149 01:32:04,280 --> 01:32:09,280 overw primarily because uh I have 150 01:32:09,320 --> 01:32:18,840 dogs. They insist on maintaining a presence on social media and they do 151 01:32:15,199 --> 01:32:18,840 require my assistance. 152 01:32:19,920 --> 01:32:28,880 That's pretty much it for me. Um next you're operating at high altitude now 153 01:32:25,840 --> 01:32:34,400 literally of course but also uh in the sense of where you are organization and 154 01:32:32,159 --> 01:32:39,040 we'll talk a little bit about that and then sort of related to that um 155 01:32:36,320 --> 01:32:43,480 personnel matters you've got people to handle that now uh and so there are some 156 01:32:41,600 --> 01:32:49,520 dimensions around that. So let's talk about transparency 157 01:32:46,560 --> 01:32:53,840 and open meetings and other laws that govern your communications. um as a 158 01:32:52,159 --> 01:32:59,840 council member. So, we've got the Colorado open meetings law and it does 159 01:32:56,880 --> 01:33:05,679 apply to all meetings of the governing body. So, this is a public meeting even 160 01:33:03,760 --> 01:33:10,000 though it's a work session and it's governed by the open meetings law. Uh 161 01:33:07,840 --> 01:33:14,040 your boards, commissions, committees, etc. are likewise governed by the same 162 01:33:12,639 --> 01:33:19,360 set of laws. And I know we were talking earlier 163 01:33:17,360 --> 01:33:24,159 about well is there a quorum? Right? there were three uh for for a few 164 01:33:21,520 --> 01:33:28,960 minutes there. Um and the open meetings law actually applies to three or more 165 01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:35,360 members of a governing body if it's a seven member governing body or a quorum 166 01:33:32,239 --> 01:33:39,600 whichever is less. So even though you wouldn't have had a quorum with three 167 01:33:37,120 --> 01:33:44,000 for the you know transaction in business this law still would have been in 168 01:33:41,440 --> 01:33:47,480 effect. So you know three is the magic number when you have a seven member 169 01:33:46,320 --> 01:33:53,199 governing body. Also, executive sessions. Have you 170 01:33:50,960 --> 01:33:57,760 guys been involved in any executive sessions to this point? 171 01:33:55,840 --> 01:34:04,239 We introduced that to him right away. Okay, good. Super duper important 172 01:34:00,960 --> 01:34:10,400 because those are like the only very limited circumstances when you can have 173 01:34:06,639 --> 01:34:14,639 a discussion away from the public eye. And so, not only are there some, you 174 01:34:12,480 --> 01:34:18,639 know, pretty strict procedural requirements, I call them the Miranda 175 01:34:16,800 --> 01:34:23,760 warning, um, but also some substantive 176 01:34:21,080 --> 01:34:29,520 requirements in terms of the very limited number of topics that can be 177 01:34:26,560 --> 01:34:34,560 discussed in executive session and also some requirements around, you know, what 178 01:34:31,920 --> 01:34:40,080 happens should the discussion, you know, as human discussions will kind of start 179 01:34:37,360 --> 01:34:46,239 to stray away from those. limited authorized profit. So, it's an 180 01:34:43,440 --> 01:34:51,840 area where you really kind of have to hue to the straight and narrow and the 181 01:34:48,239 --> 01:34:57,440 the letter of the executive session law as well as the the spirit because it is 182 01:34:54,400 --> 01:35:03,440 easy to to get into trouble. And uh at CERSO we've seen some litigation around 183 01:35:00,480 --> 01:35:09,440 uh governing bodies that uh played fast and loose with executive sessions then 184 01:35:06,080 --> 01:35:15,760 became publicly embarrassed as a result. So uh it is an area where caution is 185 01:35:12,400 --> 01:35:21,760 very important. Also serial meetings have become kind of a focus of scrutiny 186 01:35:18,719 --> 01:35:26,320 and uh litigation. What's a serial meeting? So if you were to say to 187 01:35:24,239 --> 01:35:32,000 yourself, well, three is the magic number, right? And this law kicks in. So 188 01:35:29,840 --> 01:35:37,679 why don't we just have meetings two by two by two by two until we cover all 189 01:35:34,719 --> 01:35:40,639 seven of us? Does that sound like an appropriate thing to 190 01:35:41,320 --> 01:35:53,520 do? I go back way before. And so back in the day, I was like, well, okay, it's 191 01:35:49,679 --> 01:35:58,159 not three, so go ahead. Right? But when you think about it, having serial 192 01:35:55,600 --> 01:36:05,040 meetings 2 by two, even if it doesn't necessarily violate the letter of the 193 01:36:01,199 --> 01:36:10,560 law, does it kind of play fast and loose with the spirit of the law? Right. I 194 01:36:08,639 --> 01:36:15,360 think it does. Have Have there been places that have gotten in trouble in 195 01:36:12,960 --> 01:36:20,480 trouble with that? Yes. Okay. Yes, there there have been and you know I don't 196 01:36:17,520 --> 01:36:25,760 know that we yet have any definitive um court rulings on it but definitely 197 01:36:22,800 --> 01:36:34,639 judges have frowned upon it and I think rightfully so and is that kind of if 198 01:36:30,840 --> 01:36:41,360 if two by twos a decision has been made and that decision then doesn't 199 01:36:37,480 --> 01:36:47,199 get also publicly discussed and decided. Yeah. especially if that is the case. 200 01:36:44,000 --> 01:36:53,520 But really, you know, the ML doesn't just say decisions have to be public. It 201 01:36:50,199 --> 01:36:58,800 says have to be public, right? And so for for those reasons, I would 202 01:36:55,719 --> 01:37:04,800 discourage at this point in my career uh the holding of 2 by two serial meetings. 203 01:37:01,600 --> 01:37:09,719 It it it just it doesn't look good. And one of these days, somebody's going to 204 01:37:06,960 --> 01:37:14,440 make that law in a definitive way or the legislators are going to step in and say 205 01:37:12,400 --> 01:37:21,119 no more of this. Let's see. Non-meating 206 01:37:16,920 --> 01:37:26,480 communications. So, email text, right? Social media. 207 01:37:23,400 --> 01:37:31,280 If more than one of you were to appear on on the same place on social media and 208 01:37:29,280 --> 01:37:36,880 you were to start discussing public business, right? You can see how that 209 01:37:34,800 --> 01:37:41,920 could implicate the open meeting law, right? You're having a discussion and 210 01:37:39,119 --> 01:37:46,400 there's the magic number. Same thing with email. This is where it kind of 211 01:37:44,000 --> 01:37:53,280 starts to feel a little non-intuitive, right? Because you're like, email is 212 01:37:48,600 --> 01:37:59,360 writing. It's not a meeting, but the OML actually explicitly says emails can be a 213 01:37:56,960 --> 01:38:04,480 meeting, right? And that's because as long as you're hitting reply all, right, 214 01:38:02,000 --> 01:38:09,560 you're having a public discussion even though you're typing it rather than, you 215 01:38:06,639 --> 01:38:17,040 know, speaking it. And so that is also problematic. Texting uh same issue. uh 216 01:38:13,760 --> 01:38:22,080 and so texting uh can equally implicate the open meetings law where this has 217 01:38:19,679 --> 01:38:28,080 gotten a few people embarrassed and I don't know that there's been any 218 01:38:23,840 --> 01:38:34,639 litigation around it but people were discovered uh council members were 219 01:38:31,119 --> 01:38:39,840 discovered to be texting one another on the 220 01:38:36,199 --> 01:38:44,080 deis during public meetings doing their little private commentary about that 221 01:38:44,320 --> 01:38:52,719 Is private commentary about a public meeting still a discussion of public 222 01:38:50,000 --> 01:38:57,840 business? Well, it it sure is, right? Though that's also not cool. And again, 223 01:38:55,679 --> 01:39:03,760 one of the lesser known ways in which you can kind of get into trouble. I 224 01:38:59,920 --> 01:39:08,719 mean, I remember u most municipalities and counties dealt with this or public 225 01:39:05,520 --> 01:39:15,040 bodies during CO. When we first really went to a lot of electronic meetings and 226 01:39:11,679 --> 01:39:19,520 it included your legislative body, it was properly noticed, but people weren't 227 01:39:17,280 --> 01:39:23,119 used to being in that electronic meeting and not being able to text their 228 01:39:21,040 --> 01:39:27,159 colleagues. And we had to we first discovered it, then we had to do 229 01:39:24,719 --> 01:39:31,920 something about it. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. that would kind 230 01:39:29,600 --> 01:39:38,239 of naturally happen if you're kind of all in separate places and can't do 231 01:39:34,520 --> 01:39:43,280 that you might be doing. So the thing about electronic communications that's 232 01:39:40,480 --> 01:39:48,159 especially kind of scary is that yeah it implicates the open meetings law but it 233 01:39:45,679 --> 01:39:53,280 also implicates of course the open records act because the written 234 01:39:50,719 --> 01:40:00,080 communications right and so the open records act is another transparency law 235 01:39:56,880 --> 01:40:06,880 that basically says any document pertaining to public business can be 236 01:40:04,119 --> 01:40:12,880 requested by the public right any member of the public can say, "Hey, I would 237 01:40:09,440 --> 01:40:17,960 like to see all of your emails about um public business for the last two 238 01:40:15,880 --> 01:40:24,840 months." And would clerk's office have to cough that 239 01:40:22,199 --> 01:40:30,960 up, right? Um would you think you could say, "Well, 240 01:40:28,320 --> 01:40:37,600 I'll just use my official town email for that purpose then." Um but then I'll do 241 01:40:34,400 --> 01:40:41,679 my sort of I don't want to say secret, but secret 242 01:40:39,440 --> 01:40:47,840 communications about public business on my personal account. Would that be a way 243 01:40:44,159 --> 01:40:53,760 to kind of shield your public uh communications by using your private 244 01:40:50,520 --> 01:40:59,840 email? No, it's a way then to expose your private email, right, to having to 245 01:40:57,280 --> 01:41:05,360 be rifled through to discover any documents pertaining to public business. 246 01:41:02,639 --> 01:41:09,800 And I don't know about you, but I would rather not have my Yes, I still have a 247 01:41:07,600 --> 01:41:15,920 Yahoo account. Um, I would rather not have 248 01:41:13,239 --> 01:41:20,480 that picked through because then it would be revealed how just how many 249 01:41:18,000 --> 01:41:24,880 pairs of boots I buy on Amazon on a regular basis and that would be very 250 01:41:22,480 --> 01:41:29,600 embarrassing. So, but you know, that's what we would have to do, right? is that 251 01:41:27,520 --> 01:41:34,719 goes through each of your emails wherever they're lodged and say, "Okay, 252 01:41:32,159 --> 01:41:40,080 which of these satisfies the request?" So, I think you do want to exercise 253 01:41:37,679 --> 01:41:45,600 caution to make sure that you do limit your communications about public 254 01:41:42,239 --> 01:41:50,880 business to your ter email so that they can be easily retrieved should there be 255 01:41:48,400 --> 01:41:56,880 a request for them. We've had council members in the past or in other places 256 01:41:53,360 --> 01:42:02,239 that I've worked that for ease of going through their email have funneled that 257 01:41:59,360 --> 01:42:07,600 their email to the same place. Um, and that's not a good practice 258 01:42:04,560 --> 01:42:13,440 either because that mixes them on a place that you may not want to be mixed 259 01:42:09,520 --> 01:42:19,520 and it opens it all to public scrutiny. Point on it. I I'm doing open records 260 01:42:16,280 --> 01:42:24,320 as well. It's not just that they will go through your email. You will lose you 261 01:42:21,840 --> 01:42:29,679 can lose possession of your laptop a great period of days while a forensic IT 262 01:42:27,040 --> 01:42:34,080 scientist goes through it looking for and retrieving emails that you thought 263 01:42:32,159 --> 01:42:36,800 were deleted, right? That that as you probably know remain on the hard drive 264 01:42:35,679 --> 01:42:42,679 of your computer until they get overwritten. So it's not just a privacy 265 01:42:39,520 --> 01:42:49,840 issue. So when can I have my laptop issue? Yeah, good point. through 266 01:42:46,719 --> 01:42:53,440 your bone. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. So, caution very 267 01:42:51,920 --> 01:42:57,920 important. And then, you know, electronic communications of all kinds 268 01:42:56,000 --> 01:43:03,119 are potentially subject to the civil discovery process, right? So, in the 269 01:43:00,400 --> 01:43:07,040 event that there is a claim where your emails could be implicated, there will 270 01:43:05,199 --> 01:43:12,800 be a hold, right? First of all, placed on that. Um, and then ultimately, right, 271 01:43:10,719 --> 01:43:17,440 there could be a discovery process. And so you'll have opposing council, right? 272 01:43:15,199 --> 01:43:20,800 And their IT people going through those, you know potentially 273 01:43:22,280 --> 01:43:29,520 um so see what I mean about communications no longer being very very 274 01:43:27,440 --> 01:43:33,000 private um when you're a public official. So 275 01:43:33,119 --> 01:43:37,800 about first amendment and social media 276 01:43:39,199 --> 01:43:47,840 so yeah thank you. Um quasi judicial issues. So your role as a judge in 277 01:43:44,159 --> 01:43:53,040 addition to being a legislator. So um clearly right you guys kind of 278 01:43:50,639 --> 01:43:58,000 understand and probably intuitively understand the legislative role because 279 01:43:55,119 --> 01:44:04,880 there's lots of models for that at other levels of government. But not all of 280 01:44:01,280 --> 01:44:10,880 those levels of government also have uh members who have a quasi judicial role. 281 01:44:07,520 --> 01:44:15,280 that's almost unique, I think, to counties and municipalities. I don't 282 01:44:13,440 --> 01:44:20,320 know about school boards. Maybe there's a little bit in there, but 283 01:44:17,920 --> 01:44:24,920 municipalities are really where that game is strong in terms of having a 284 01:44:22,639 --> 01:44:30,239 quasi judicial role for elected officials. So, I would break out your 285 01:44:27,800 --> 01:44:36,600 responsibilities broadly into two areas, the legislative and the quasi judicial. 286 01:44:33,600 --> 01:44:42,400 And then you know if we compare sort of the activities and the rules of 287 01:44:39,360 --> 01:44:48,480 engagement that apply to each you can almost see that they're black and white 288 01:44:45,560 --> 01:44:53,360 proposals. So legislative activities are the ones that probably came to light 289 01:44:50,960 --> 01:44:59,679 right when you were first considering um taking this office right you are going 290 01:44:56,159 --> 01:45:04,639 to listen to citizens contact you about their priorities and their concerns. uh 291 01:45:02,560 --> 01:45:09,199 you're going to be potentially investigating those issues yourself, 292 01:45:07,280 --> 01:45:14,800 right? You're going to have opinions because you too are members of the 293 01:45:11,199 --> 01:45:19,080 community about those issues before they ever, right, come to the agenda of the 294 01:45:17,600 --> 01:45:23,760 council as a whole. You might even talk to each 295 01:45:21,520 --> 01:45:30,960 other, right? you hear about something from a citizen and you start talking 296 01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:35,119 about the issues not in a serial meeting sense of course but you know when I say 297 01:45:33,040 --> 01:45:39,840 don't have serial meetings I I don't mean don't ever communicate because you 298 01:45:37,760 --> 01:45:44,239 will communicate right and if you're doing so in a way that's not intended to 299 01:45:42,560 --> 01:45:48,639 skirt the requirement of the open meetings law then I don't really have an 300 01:45:46,400 --> 01:45:54,239 issue with that I think you just have to be careful about the appearances uh you 301 01:45:51,199 --> 01:45:59,119 might even uh work in advance to see if there's a consensus around a particular 302 01:45:56,480 --> 01:46:06,560 issue before you bring it forward as a legislative priority. Right? Are these 303 01:46:02,560 --> 01:46:12,000 all okay legislative activities? Absolutely. These are accepted things uh 304 01:46:09,920 --> 01:46:17,920 that are part of the legislative process. And then ultimately right after 305 01:46:15,119 --> 01:46:22,960 all of this groundwork, there might come before the body as a whole an ordinance 306 01:46:20,480 --> 01:46:29,119 or other enactment that will have prospective application to everybody who 307 01:46:26,080 --> 01:46:34,880 is encompassed within that ordinance enactment. And so that's the essence of 308 01:46:32,400 --> 01:46:40,800 legislation, right? It's prospective in nature. It doesn't single out the one 309 01:46:37,600 --> 01:46:46,560 entity or person or business. It kind of applies prospectively to everybody, 310 01:46:43,600 --> 01:46:52,119 right, that you intended to encompass. So that is legislation. And so when you 311 01:46:49,920 --> 01:46:56,840 think about the rules of engagement, pretty loose, right? They're 312 01:46:54,880 --> 01:47:03,920 pretty loose. Quasi 313 01:47:00,360 --> 01:47:09,760 judicial. So quasi judicial is literally the opposite in that it's 314 01:47:06,360 --> 01:47:15,760 not, you know, a general ordinance of prospective application to everybody. 315 01:47:13,040 --> 01:47:22,760 You're taking action on a single entity's rights, a single person's 316 01:47:18,400 --> 01:47:29,440 rights, right? A single business's right using already established law. applying 317 01:47:26,400 --> 01:47:35,520 that established law to the facts that you hear at a hearing, marrying up the 318 01:47:32,880 --> 01:47:42,239 facts and the law to arrive at the correct decision. So that is exactly 319 01:47:38,480 --> 01:47:47,119 what judges do, right? Uh and it is so different from 320 01:47:43,960 --> 01:47:50,480 legislation. And so when you step into right your 321 01:47:48,280 --> 01:47:55,520 responsibilities not really thinking about the distinction between 322 01:47:52,080 --> 01:48:02,880 legislative and quasi judicial it's easy to carry over the relatively loose way 323 01:47:59,360 --> 01:48:09,920 in which you do legislation over into quasi judicial and then you get directly 324 01:48:06,000 --> 01:48:14,880 into trouble as a result. But as long as you kind of say okay I'm issue spotting. 325 01:48:12,480 --> 01:48:19,600 I know this is legislative or I know this is quasi judicial and then apply 326 01:48:17,280 --> 01:48:25,199 the proper rules of engagement to each of those then you will not get in 327 01:48:22,000 --> 01:48:32,560 trouble personally. You will also be doing that a huge favor because quasi 328 01:48:29,360 --> 01:48:39,199 judicial matters uh can be appealed through rule 106. Have you guys this 329 01:48:35,280 --> 01:48:44,719 point heard about rule 106? Yeah of course. Yeah. So, it's the route 330 01:48:41,920 --> 01:48:51,199 of appeal for quasi judicial matters and it's kind of a slam dunk if you arrived 331 01:48:48,639 --> 01:48:57,440 at the right decision and you followed the proper procedure, right? Because the 332 01:48:54,560 --> 01:49:03,360 there's a lot of deaths granted to your decision as long as you followed the 333 01:48:59,880 --> 01:49:08,320 rules. It's like what are the the magic words that competent evidence on the 334 01:49:05,520 --> 01:49:14,199 record? Yep. Exactly. And what does that mean, Dan? He asked me, he asked me 335 01:49:10,159 --> 01:49:14,199 twice last time when I did. 336 01:49:15,920 --> 01:49:25,040 Say that again. Confident evidence means enough evidence of a proposition which 337 01:49:22,239 --> 01:49:30,080 if reasonable minds could differ to the conclusion. It's it's pretty 338 01:49:27,199 --> 01:49:34,960 differential. Um so you know abuse of discretion is another way like use 339 01:49:32,800 --> 01:49:38,960 discretion. We would never do that, right? Um, and so it's a pretty 340 01:49:37,119 --> 01:49:44,800 differential standard. As long as you follow the the rules, um, that's going 341 01:49:41,440 --> 01:49:48,920 to hand you a winner, right? So that's another 342 01:49:47,159 --> 01:49:54,560 reason. Um, though at this point, you're very 343 01:49:52,080 --> 01:49:59,360 well familiar with what is judicial and what is not. And I'm sure to the extent 344 01:49:56,560 --> 01:50:03,760 that it's not clear, um, you know, it it will be pointed out to you this is a 345 01:50:01,280 --> 01:50:10,080 judicial matter. So uh there will be no doubt from that standpoint. But you know 346 01:50:06,719 --> 01:50:15,440 if we go back to the things that you do for legislation, right, you can see 347 01:50:12,560 --> 01:50:22,560 black and white that these are things you do not do in quasi judicial, right? 348 01:50:19,199 --> 01:50:29,239 You do not listen to citizens contact you in advance of hearing the matter. Is 349 01:50:26,880 --> 01:50:34,440 that going to be hard to do at times? I would think so. Right? Because 350 01:50:32,000 --> 01:50:40,080 one of the joys of municipal government is access, right? The fact that 351 01:50:37,760 --> 01:50:44,560 everybody knows who you are, they know how to get a hold of you, right? And and 352 01:50:42,320 --> 01:50:48,880 they don't know these rules. Exactly right. Exactly right. Yeah. And so, you 353 01:50:47,199 --> 01:50:55,320 know, they may be surprised that you were so open to discussions on matter a 354 01:50:52,480 --> 01:51:00,639 legislative and then suddenly here's matter judicial and you're like, get 355 01:50:58,239 --> 01:51:04,800 away from me. Right? And so, you know, it it is important to kind of arm 356 01:51:02,480 --> 01:51:11,679 yourself with what's okay and what's not because uh if you don't, then you may be 357 01:51:07,920 --> 01:51:16,159 pulled in advertently into um activities that will if not make 358 01:51:17,000 --> 01:51:24,159 you not inappropriate decision maker, at least create the apparent that you are 359 01:51:22,320 --> 01:51:30,159 not an appropriate decision maker. So listening to citizens who contact you in 360 01:51:26,560 --> 01:51:35,320 person, by email, on social media, etc. Not something to do on a quasi judicial 361 01:51:33,440 --> 01:51:40,159 matter. What should you do? I always say blame the attorney 362 01:51:38,320 --> 01:51:44,080 because that's one of the things we're good for. But another thing you can do 363 01:51:42,400 --> 01:51:50,880 is say, you know, this is a quasi judicial matter. A hearing has been or 364 01:51:47,040 --> 01:51:57,520 soon will be scheduled. And so, uh, the most effective thing that citizens can 365 01:51:53,440 --> 01:52:04,000 do is sign up to testify at the hearing so that all of us can hear what you have 366 01:52:00,880 --> 01:52:09,360 to say and it can be on the record, right? So, if you explain it that way, I 367 01:52:06,560 --> 01:52:14,080 think citizens won't go away mad or assume that you're, you know, kind of 368 01:52:11,920 --> 01:52:19,119 trying to push them away, right? uh there are good reasons why you should 369 01:52:16,639 --> 01:52:24,040 encourage them to come to the hearing or at least submit testimony for the record 370 01:52:22,000 --> 01:52:30,400 in some other fashion. So, just to pick that apart a little 371 01:52:26,719 --> 01:52:39,440 bit, when you say um something is scheduled as a quasi judicial matter or 372 01:52:34,719 --> 01:52:45,360 will soon be, what if it's not scheduled yet and we don't anticipate it be 373 01:52:42,239 --> 01:52:51,360 scheduled like a land use item that's being heard by your planning 374 01:52:47,320 --> 01:52:55,520 commission, but but it has every one of those kind of has the potential to be 375 01:52:53,520 --> 01:52:59,280 but the council is the appellet body for the right right decision so they might 376 01:52:57,840 --> 01:53:04,080 as well be a decision maker it doesn't make any difference okay yeah that's a 377 01:53:01,760 --> 01:53:10,560 good clarification you know maybe it's not soon will be but foreseeably could 378 01:53:06,159 --> 01:53:16,560 be right foreseeably could be um so investigating the issues 379 01:53:13,800 --> 01:53:20,960 yourselves you know you guys each have strong opinions right about this 380 01:53:18,800 --> 01:53:26,520 community its priorities what you want where etc 381 01:53:23,280 --> 01:53:30,719 You may have subject matter expertise. A lot of subject matter 382 01:53:28,719 --> 01:53:36,000 experts end up on a council because citizens trust their expertise. But 383 01:53:33,599 --> 01:53:41,599 oddly enough, you know, when you become a council member, you guys become like 384 01:53:38,480 --> 01:53:47,360 the ultimate generalists, right? And you know, I mentioned you've got 385 01:53:44,280 --> 01:53:53,520 people, well, you've got people for subject matter, too. And so it's not 386 01:53:50,560 --> 01:54:00,840 incumbent upon elected officials to try to become subject matter experts on any 387 01:53:57,199 --> 01:54:08,000 given quasi judicial topic because that expertise will be given to you by those 388 01:54:05,040 --> 01:54:15,520 whose job it is to do that and your job then is to make the decisions. 389 01:54:12,880 --> 01:54:21,360 It may be that you have a subject matter expertise that naturally lends itself to 390 01:54:18,159 --> 01:54:26,159 being shared, right? Uh attorneys of course are the worst offenders in that 391 01:54:23,199 --> 01:54:32,320 regard because we only see the entire world in legal terms. Everything is a 392 01:54:29,040 --> 01:54:35,920 legal issue. And so I'm the expert. You ought to be looking at me. Right? If I 393 01:54:34,239 --> 01:54:40,760 were a member of the council, I might be inclined to feel that way. I've been a 394 01:54:37,840 --> 01:54:47,199 member of a nonprofit board. And you bet, right? I threw my weight around 395 01:54:45,679 --> 01:54:52,719 when I thought it was, you know, for good, not evil by trying to characterize 396 01:54:50,159 --> 01:54:57,440 it as a legal issue. Look at me, right? But then we didn't have quasi judicial 397 01:54:54,880 --> 01:55:01,840 matters on a nonprofit board. So that was, you know, maybe out of line, but 398 01:54:59,599 --> 01:55:07,199 certainly wasn't unlawful behavior on my part. But you could see where subject 399 01:55:04,159 --> 01:55:12,159 matter expertise could cause one member of the council to have undue influence 400 01:55:09,760 --> 01:55:18,000 over the rest of the council in terms of, you know, being looked at as the 401 01:55:15,119 --> 01:55:23,280 expert, right? And so you don't need to do that. You shouldn't do that because 402 01:55:20,080 --> 01:55:30,320 each of you stands on your own as a generalist. Each of you holds 17th of 403 01:55:26,880 --> 01:55:34,800 the power and the decision making um authority of the the 404 01:55:32,280 --> 01:55:39,199 council. Let's look at another one. Oh, investigating the issues yourself. So, 405 01:55:37,360 --> 01:55:43,320 you're like, well, okay, I got the planning 406 01:55:41,239 --> 01:55:48,560 commission, but I'm a little bit dissatisfied because it didn't seem to 407 01:55:45,679 --> 01:55:53,679 cover a couple of areas where I have questions. So, I'm going to go out and 408 01:55:50,719 --> 01:56:00,960 investigate myself. Is that an okay thing for a judicial decision maker 409 01:55:57,880 --> 01:56:07,119 to because at that point you're not a decision maker, you're an investigator, 410 01:56:03,599 --> 01:56:12,239 right? So no, that is not an appropriate thing to do. And I do remember a rule 411 01:56:09,679 --> 01:56:16,199 106 action where I was defending the city council and I had two members of 412 01:56:14,880 --> 01:56:23,679 the council actually state on the record the 413 01:56:20,800 --> 01:56:29,679 investigation that they did themselves on a prospective land use application. 414 01:56:26,000 --> 01:56:33,639 I've seen that before too it's fine. It's not in this body 415 01:56:31,679 --> 01:56:43,360 previous one. It was like, "Well, your business, 416 01:56:37,920 --> 01:56:49,360 um, I happen to know uses bright orange in all of its branding, including the 417 01:56:46,480 --> 01:56:54,320 building front and all of the signage." Uh, and I happened to know this because 418 01:56:51,280 --> 01:57:00,239 I visited one of your sister businesses in the town next door, and the orange 419 01:56:57,040 --> 01:57:08,360 was so garish, I couldn't, right? And so, I'm voting no. Was that 420 01:57:05,560 --> 01:57:14,719 appropriate? I thought that was the sure loser. Thank goodness there were seven 421 01:57:11,679 --> 01:57:19,920 other members who hadn't done that. But if there's been a majority that had done 422 01:57:17,520 --> 01:57:25,679 that, I think we would have lost that rule 106 for sure. So investigating, 423 01:57:22,960 --> 01:57:32,320 lobbying and being lobbyed, right? That's okay in the legislative context. 424 01:57:28,639 --> 01:57:37,840 But in a qualified judicial matter, you each of you has to make up your own mind 425 01:57:35,280 --> 01:57:43,159 based upon the evidence that you hear and the law that you apply. And so 426 01:57:40,239 --> 01:57:48,480 lobbying and being lobbyed are inappropriate. Working in advance to 427 01:57:45,280 --> 01:57:54,239 create a consensus. Needless to say, right, uh judicial people do not do 428 01:57:52,080 --> 01:57:59,520 that. They don't work in advance to to do anything. They listen to the evidence 429 01:57:56,320 --> 01:58:07,840 and then render a decision. And this is an interesting place where I have seen a 430 01:58:04,199 --> 01:58:12,679 convergence of working in advance via email 431 01:58:10,040 --> 01:58:18,719 communication, right? And somebody got suspicious and asked for the emails 432 01:58:16,400 --> 01:58:24,239 about this particular topic. And lo and behold, right, council members were 433 01:58:21,440 --> 01:58:30,560 piping amongst themselves, "This is a great project. I fully intend to vote 434 01:58:26,960 --> 01:58:35,199 yes on it." How about you? Sand open meetings. Exactly. 435 01:58:32,639 --> 01:58:40,800 Exactly. Right. They Yeah. And working in 436 01:58:35,960 --> 01:58:46,800 advance. So yeah, like Oh, please. Um so so you can see how uh quasi judicial 437 01:58:43,520 --> 01:58:52,159 issues you might think well how can I get in trouble doing this but it's very 438 01:58:49,520 --> 01:58:58,199 very easy to get into trouble or having strong convictions prejudgments that you 439 01:58:55,280 --> 01:59:05,920 don't hesitate to voice yeah this will go back a long long time 440 01:59:01,599 --> 01:59:13,360 but I remember a um city council that was the liquor licensing authority and 441 01:59:08,960 --> 01:59:20,400 they had one member who was completely opposed to every liquor 442 01:59:16,199 --> 01:59:26,719 license and her perspective was, "Well, liquor leads to dancing and dancing 443 01:59:23,440 --> 01:59:32,840 leads to spin and so I've got my finger on the no button on every liquor license 444 01:59:30,080 --> 01:59:38,239 every time, no matter what." Was that appropriate? Have to 445 01:59:35,440 --> 01:59:44,119 have strong personal convictions. You gotta respect her. She was very 446 01:59:41,800 --> 01:59:49,599 consistent. But was that one of the the legal 447 01:59:46,679 --> 01:59:55,520 criteria around granting or denying a a liquor license? Most definitely not. 448 01:59:51,760 --> 01:59:59,520 Right. And so I remember Charlie. [Music] 449 01:59:57,599 --> 02:00:05,040 He was like, I know we have this problem, but I can't fix it. And thank 450 02:00:02,480 --> 02:00:09,119 goodness there's only one. So we get we won't get in trouble as long as there's 451 02:00:06,719 --> 02:00:13,719 only one. But you can see how right if there was a substantial minority or if 452 02:00:12,080 --> 02:00:18,159 there was lobbying around that perspective then you could quickly end 453 02:00:16,239 --> 02:00:21,280 up with decisions that would be subjected to to legal 454 02:00:21,320 --> 02:00:29,040 challenges. All right. So that is quasi judicial. Um I kind of covered it by 455 02:00:26,800 --> 02:00:32,280 looking at the legislative stuff but does that make sense? Have I beaten it 456 02:00:31,440 --> 02:00:37,960 to death? Would you like to add anything 457 02:00:35,679 --> 02:00:41,040 else? Okay. All 458 02:00:41,560 --> 02:00:49,199 right. So, it really is sort of a one-hour training and I want to uh get 459 02:00:46,480 --> 02:00:53,159 on to the next topic, but you know, here are some suggestions. Don't make up your 460 02:00:51,679 --> 02:00:58,719 mind before the hearing. Don't make prejuditial 461 02:00:55,520 --> 02:01:04,719 prehering statements. Uh don't speak with one side or the other before the 462 02:01:01,440 --> 02:01:09,320 hearing. uh be careful even when speaking with staff about a matter, 463 02:01:07,770 --> 02:01:15,520 [Music] right? Because you can kind of betray, 464 02:01:12,639 --> 02:01:20,400 right? That you have a perspective or a fixed idea of what you want the outcome 465 02:01:17,599 --> 02:01:26,080 to be by asking pointed questions, right? Or saying, I want you to research 466 02:01:22,400 --> 02:01:30,480 this part, right? Give me some say no kind of thing. Uh, and so you do want to 467 02:01:28,480 --> 02:01:36,080 be very very careful in speaking with one side or the other. Um, or really 468 02:01:32,960 --> 02:01:40,960 with with anybody. Uh, I don't know if pro and con petitions are even a thing 469 02:01:38,400 --> 02:01:45,280 much anymore, but yeah, don't sign any of those about a pending quasi judicial 470 02:01:43,599 --> 02:01:50,480 matter. And of course, don't be a witness at your own hearing. So, you 471 02:01:47,440 --> 02:01:56,560 know, in this regard, have you guys ever um been in a hearing where you were 472 02:01:53,520 --> 02:02:03,960 like, I wish somebody would testify about this because nobody is touching on 473 02:01:59,840 --> 02:02:09,520 this particular area, but I happen to know. What would you do if you happen to 474 02:02:07,119 --> 02:02:15,520 know, but it didn't seem like anything was coming out in the testimony? 475 02:02:12,480 --> 02:02:19,440 Did you say it yourself? Good question. of the appropriate 476 02:02:17,400 --> 02:02:22,800 individual, whoever is providing you with the testimony you have a question 477 02:02:20,880 --> 02:02:26,480 about. Yeah. Or whoever is in the best position to know. 478 02:02:24,960 --> 02:02:31,960 Yeah. Could be staff, could be the developer. Yeah. Yeah. In our um garish 479 02:02:29,920 --> 02:02:37,360 orange example, right? Okay. He drove by, right? A 480 02:02:35,440 --> 02:02:44,239 similar development, but he didn't have to say that. He could have said, "Oh, by 481 02:02:40,560 --> 02:02:50,960 the way, Mr. witness. So, what what are your brand colors and how do you intend 482 02:02:47,679 --> 02:02:58,480 to incorporate them right in the building? Franchises have 483 02:02:53,719 --> 02:02:58,480 options in using those colors. Yeah, 484 02:02:59,719 --> 02:03:07,880 exactly. So, I I think we've covered this enough, but suffice it to say that 485 02:03:05,440 --> 02:03:14,639 if you do these things like lobbying one another, talking with citizens, etc., 486 02:03:10,880 --> 02:03:18,960 Then you know enough of those can end up making you guys look like biased 487 02:03:16,480 --> 02:03:24,639 decision makers which is the last thing that you want to be right. You want to 488 02:03:21,199 --> 02:03:29,679 be and comfort yourselves as unbiased decision makers. And so now when we talk 489 02:03:27,040 --> 02:03:35,360 about exparte or outside the hearing context, we are literally trying to 490 02:03:32,480 --> 02:03:44,480 preserve your prerogative to participate in the hearing without being challenged. 491 02:03:39,080 --> 02:03:49,119 So I had a mayor once um listen to me on this presentation for a while and then 492 02:03:46,560 --> 02:03:55,159 she said to me Tammy all these rules around exparte content do lawyers just 493 02:03:52,400 --> 02:04:00,960 make them up to try to control them and my feelings were hurt 494 02:03:58,440 --> 02:04:06,560 man you know I'm literally like trying to protect your prerogative to 495 02:04:03,280 --> 02:04:11,199 participate and also protect like the integrity of the decision. 496 02:04:08,400 --> 02:04:15,920 So that if it's challenged, it will be defensible and we will 497 02:04:13,080 --> 02:04:21,760 prevail. That's literally our only motivations for that. I talked with them 498 02:04:18,880 --> 02:04:26,280 last week about what about the exparte communication you cannot avoid. You're 499 02:04:23,199 --> 02:04:30,639 you're trapped in the in the line at the grocery and no matter how many times you 500 02:04:28,800 --> 02:04:36,719 say I really need to hear this at the hearing. This could impact the integrity 501 02:04:33,040 --> 02:04:42,560 of the decision. They won't stop. And it goes on. It goes on and I've told 502 02:04:39,599 --> 02:04:46,719 them, "Disclose it. Tell me about it. We will rehabilitate you at the hearing. 503 02:04:44,719 --> 02:04:51,119 And by rehabilitating, it simply just means letting the other side know of the 504 02:04:48,840 --> 02:04:54,880 communication and its nature." So they have a chance to respond. As I've told 505 02:04:52,480 --> 02:04:59,840 them, there's nothing illegal, unethical, immoral about the expert 506 02:04:57,639 --> 02:05:03,440 communication, not having one and then not disclosing it. you know, try not to 507 02:05:02,080 --> 02:05:10,560 happen, but if you can't avoid it, disclose it and all will be well. Yeah, 508 02:05:06,880 --> 02:05:15,040 it's a very cleansing power. So, just because I'm still learning a 509 02:05:12,719 --> 02:05:19,840 lot about all of these things, let's say somebody comes up to us with with a 510 02:05:17,119 --> 02:05:23,679 topic that we're not sure if it's quasi, judicial, or 511 02:05:21,239 --> 02:05:27,520 legislative. We hear them and all we need to do is just let everybody know 512 02:05:25,360 --> 02:05:31,920 that we heard this when we learned that it's quasi judicial. 513 02:05:30,080 --> 02:05:36,239 I think that's essentially correct. Yeah. And you know, as as you spend time 514 02:05:34,320 --> 02:05:40,800 on the council, you'll be able to issue spot a lot 515 02:05:38,119 --> 02:05:45,679 better. Most of the time, right, when citizens want to talk to you, it's on a 516 02:05:43,679 --> 02:05:52,320 couple of things. One, purely administrative matters or 517 02:05:48,360 --> 02:05:59,040 two, matters, right? So, they're not there to talk to you about policy 518 02:05:54,400 --> 02:06:07,280 issues. What if that's vision? They're probably wanting to get specific. So, I 519 02:06:02,159 --> 02:06:07,280 would have your antenna up whenever that 520 02:06:07,480 --> 02:06:15,360 happens. Social media. So, I guess I don't need to say a whole lot about this 521 02:06:12,960 --> 02:06:20,400 because you guys are exercising some really good best practices there in 522 02:06:17,840 --> 02:06:27,040 terms of staying off, but unfortunately not everybody is. Um, and so we got to 523 02:06:24,960 --> 02:06:34,400 talk a little bit about the case law because it's largely pretty good. And 524 02:06:31,199 --> 02:06:40,639 yet, if you talk to the city attorneys, if you talk to, you know, me or Pam 525 02:06:37,360 --> 02:06:46,159 Light, the legal beagles at CERSA, we're like very cautious because even though 526 02:06:44,000 --> 02:06:51,679 that the case law as given to us by the US Supreme Court is actually not bad, 527 02:06:48,960 --> 02:06:58,400 there's lots of good reasons to continue the way you are in terms of limiting 528 02:06:54,639 --> 02:07:04,400 your activity on social media. So, we had this case a couple of years ago and 529 02:07:01,520 --> 02:07:09,760 there were actually there were two cases and it was funny that the the one case 530 02:07:07,280 --> 02:07:14,880 that went up to the Supreme Court that received the most notoriety actually 531 02:07:11,760 --> 02:07:20,560 involved a a city manager, but he was a public official just like any other 532 02:07:17,440 --> 02:07:25,760 public official. And so, the case law that he made applies equally to elected 533 02:07:23,920 --> 02:07:31,000 officials. So the question revolved around, you 534 02:07:28,400 --> 02:07:36,360 know, when can a public official end up running a foul of the 535 02:07:35,360 --> 02:07:44,960 first amendment for blocking somebody on 536 02:07:40,159 --> 02:07:51,520 social media, right, on a sort of public discussion page. And 537 02:07:47,880 --> 02:07:57,840 so Supreme Court was pretty differential and said number one, right, in order for 538 02:07:54,480 --> 02:08:05,000 the potential for liability liability to exist, that official must possess actual 539 02:08:01,320 --> 02:08:12,239 authority to speak on the city or town's behalf on the particular matter at issue 540 02:08:08,480 --> 02:08:17,800 where some kind of block right was put on. Now ask 541 02:08:14,679 --> 02:08:24,639 yourselves as individual elected officials, how often am I the one in 542 02:08:21,440 --> 02:08:31,000 actual authority to speak on behalf of the 543 02:08:26,480 --> 02:08:31,000 Not that often, right? Yeah. 544 02:08:31,040 --> 02:08:39,040 Yeah. Exactly. So that in itself was a pretty good win at least from a 545 02:08:35,920 --> 02:08:44,679 liability standpoint. And then secondly, the official must purport to be 546 02:08:41,920 --> 02:08:51,560 exercising that authority right when speaking or suppressing speech on those 547 02:08:48,480 --> 02:08:57,199 social media posts. So not only do you have to have actual 548 02:08:53,679 --> 02:09:03,920 authority, but you also have to say as a council member of the town of I hereby 549 02:09:00,400 --> 02:09:09,119 exercise my actual authority to when was the last time that happened? 550 02:09:06,000 --> 02:09:14,639 Never. Right? Everybody does social media stuff as their own 551 02:09:12,199 --> 02:09:19,119 opinion. And so this is one hint. If you're ever on social media, you can 552 02:09:17,199 --> 02:09:27,280 preface this statement. You can preface the whole page by saying opinions are my 553 02:09:22,719 --> 02:09:31,679 own only. I'm not recording to speak on behalf 554 02:09:28,599 --> 02:09:36,800 of that's one you can help shield yourself. So this is a pretty good case 555 02:09:34,400 --> 02:09:42,480 from that standpoint. But still, you know, this poor manager, right, started 556 02:09:39,679 --> 02:09:47,040 out with a personal page. Then when he was appointed as city manager, he made 557 02:09:44,880 --> 02:09:52,320 that personal page kind of somewhat public. You know, he still posted 558 02:09:49,040 --> 02:09:57,040 pictures of his daughter, etc. But he also started doing things like official 559 02:09:54,480 --> 02:10:04,079 city surveys, right, and things like that. And then when a couple of people 560 02:10:00,599 --> 02:10:08,880 um started becoming trollish on his page, right, he started blocking them or 561 02:10:06,960 --> 02:10:14,079 deleting comments when he thought they were derogatory or 562 02:10:11,560 --> 02:10:21,520 stupid. Seems like kind of a natural thing to do. Um but he did end up going 563 02:10:18,960 --> 02:10:27,040 to federal district court, went to a federal appellet court, and it went all 564 02:10:24,079 --> 02:10:33,400 the way to the US Supreme Court. And so even though the result was a good one, 565 02:10:29,440 --> 02:10:38,560 would you say that he was a loser anyway? Yeah. Right. Who who were the 566 02:10:36,000 --> 02:10:43,280 only winners in this? The attorneys. The attorneys. Yeah. Thank you. Right. 567 02:10:41,840 --> 02:10:48,480 Because it was years and years of litigation and years and years of 568 02:10:45,639 --> 02:10:53,679 uncertainty, albeit a decent result at the end. So that is what from a best 569 02:10:51,520 --> 02:10:59,520 practices standpoint, you know, using caution and social media continues to be 570 02:10:56,079 --> 02:11:05,840 our our best advice. And also this case was a very narrow issue, right? When are 571 02:11:02,639 --> 02:11:12,239 the federal civil rights laws violated, right? Pursuant to the first amendment 572 02:11:08,880 --> 02:11:16,960 because you brought or deleted somebody or somebody's post. So it's a very 573 02:11:14,400 --> 02:11:23,159 narrow issue. There's a whole world of other laws that that can be potentially 574 02:11:20,360 --> 02:11:28,719 implicated, right, around social media like information 575 02:11:25,320 --> 02:11:35,920 laws. Um, we already talked about open record issues and a host of others. And 576 02:11:33,040 --> 02:11:42,800 so, you know, keeping away from social media or at a minimum keeping it light, 577 02:11:39,599 --> 02:11:48,040 right? doing FYIs, not getting into substantive discussions or arguments, I 578 02:11:45,440 --> 02:11:54,639 think does continue to be our best advice. Um, you know, when you have 579 02:11:51,360 --> 02:12:00,800 trolls, right, trying to attack you, what is it that they want most? 580 02:11:58,159 --> 02:12:06,480 Reaction. Yeah. Reaction, attention. And so, not giving them that will keep you 581 02:12:04,000 --> 02:12:11,119 from being able to feed them. Now, I'm sure this is not happening in Prisco, 582 02:12:08,639 --> 02:12:17,360 but it does happen in other communities where individual elected officials start 583 02:12:14,119 --> 02:12:23,599 weaponizing social media against the public or even against one 584 02:12:20,199 --> 02:12:29,199 another. Not cool, right? It really does not it's not a good look, right? when um 585 02:12:26,800 --> 02:12:34,159 people are like, "I'm not going to say this to somebody's face, but I sure have 586 02:12:31,679 --> 02:12:39,920 no fear about typing it behind their back and hoping they see it." Right? It 587 02:12:37,280 --> 02:12:45,280 feels so junior high when you see that happening. And it's it's really not cool 588 02:12:42,560 --> 02:12:51,440 and it's really not productive, right? If the idea is to forge a consensus 589 02:12:48,719 --> 02:12:56,480 around issues to keep your agendas moving forward, then being on social 590 02:12:54,159 --> 02:13:02,480 media and using it as a weapon really does work at counterpurposes with 591 02:12:59,719 --> 02:13:08,560 that. So legislative versus administrative matters, where are you 592 02:13:04,639 --> 02:13:14,480 focusing your efforts? So this is the most um basic of org charts but I think 593 02:13:11,440 --> 02:13:19,440 it's accurate to say that you know each community is kind of organized this way. 594 02:13:17,040 --> 02:13:23,520 We start with the ownership right which would be the the 595 02:13:20,840 --> 02:13:28,800 citizens and then governance the governing 596 02:13:24,599 --> 02:13:34,239 body management your manager supervisors and department heads and then finally 597 02:13:31,119 --> 02:13:39,840 frontline employees. Accurate. Yeah accurate if very basic. Uh, I use this 598 02:13:36,800 --> 02:13:44,880 to illustrate three things. Um, one, time horizon. So, when you look at the 599 02:13:42,960 --> 02:13:49,360 time horizons of your frontline employees, they're pretty short time 600 02:13:47,360 --> 02:13:53,920 horizons, right? They're like, what do we need to get accomplished 601 02:13:51,320 --> 02:13:58,960 today? So, they're looking at today. Your supervisors, their time horizons 602 02:13:56,560 --> 02:14:03,760 are a little further out. Uh, what do we need to get accomplished this week? Uh, 603 02:14:01,440 --> 02:14:07,599 what's on our work plan for this month? your manager, you know, he's got his eye 604 02:14:05,760 --> 02:14:13,040 focused even further out, right? He's got a work plan for the whole year. 605 02:14:09,679 --> 02:14:18,880 Probably you have a fiveyear plan if not right longer in duration. And so his 606 02:14:16,320 --> 02:14:24,320 eyes are cast further out. But as the governing body, you know, your time 607 02:14:21,199 --> 02:14:30,079 horizons should be the furthest out of anybody in this organization. And I 608 02:14:27,679 --> 02:14:35,800 don't know if you any of you are longtime residents of First 609 02:14:32,760 --> 02:14:42,159 Code. Have you seen a lot of changes past 20, 30 610 02:14:38,679 --> 02:14:46,480 years? Right. Huge changes, incredible changes. Um dad and I and the 611 02:14:44,320 --> 02:14:52,320 communities we represent, especially on the front range, like some of them have 612 02:14:49,079 --> 02:14:59,159 become in many ways unrecognizable, right? And I want to say for the better 613 02:14:55,679 --> 02:15:06,560 for the most part those were visionary leaders right who had their eyes 30 40 614 02:15:03,599 --> 02:15:11,239 50 years out instead of having you know their attention diverted to what's 615 02:15:08,400 --> 02:15:19,040 happening today even worse what happened yesterday right and so when you've got 616 02:15:14,079 --> 02:15:24,960 like big weighty issues of the long far ahead of you future it can become easy 617 02:15:22,480 --> 02:15:29,679 to focus instead on the easier stuff like what happened yesterday, what's 618 02:15:27,360 --> 02:15:35,360 happening today. But when you take your time horizons, right, too close, then 619 02:15:32,800 --> 02:15:41,679 you're encroaching on other people's right purview and you're not keeping 620 02:15:37,679 --> 02:15:46,320 your eye where your eyes should be. Dealings within the chain of command. 621 02:15:43,599 --> 02:15:51,599 This is Tammy's rule of not jumping up or down more than one level in the 622 02:15:48,360 --> 02:15:56,639 organization. Uh and so here's the rule. Frontline employees should not jump up 623 02:15:54,800 --> 02:16:00,679 more than one level, right? They should be dealing primarily with their 624 02:15:58,679 --> 02:16:06,960 supervisors. Right? On the other side of this, right? 625 02:16:03,840 --> 02:16:12,400 If you're a governing body member, likewise, you should not be dealing with 626 02:16:10,159 --> 02:16:18,960 frontline employees. You should be dealing with your own direct 627 02:16:15,960 --> 02:16:24,639 report. That make sense? Does that seem doable? 628 02:16:22,239 --> 02:16:29,280 Yeah. Good. Because I I've seen this cause a lot of chaos within 629 02:16:26,679 --> 02:16:37,040 organizations both ways, right? Both ways. I've seen uh employees kind 630 02:16:33,000 --> 02:16:41,439 of say to an elected official, "Hey, right, I voted for you. I've got a 631 02:16:39,519 --> 02:16:47,439 problem with my supervisor. What are you going to do about it?" 632 02:16:44,840 --> 02:16:53,120 Right? That's going to happen. You can't stop it. It's really in your response 633 02:16:50,399 --> 02:16:58,960 where you know things can go south or not go south. And I will mention in this 634 02:16:55,359 --> 02:17:05,359 regard that Colorado has had some recent laws put into place 635 02:17:02,280 --> 02:17:11,280 whereby frontline employees actually do have protected rights in terms of being 636 02:17:08,319 --> 02:17:16,719 able to contact elected officials, right? So they do have that one-way 637 02:17:13,880 --> 02:17:22,559 ability, right, to try to pull you in. So again, your response then becomes 638 02:17:20,080 --> 02:17:26,240 super super critical because just because they have that right doesn't 639 02:17:24,559 --> 02:17:30,960 mean you have to say okay I'll carry your water right all the way up if I 640 02:17:28,479 --> 02:17:37,479 have to right you can say thanks for letting me know right I'll take it 641 02:17:33,960 --> 02:17:44,080 to right and let him know what's going on but these state laws really make it 642 02:17:41,679 --> 02:17:49,920 more important then for for you guys then to have the right response 643 02:17:47,200 --> 02:17:53,719 Frisco on this issue has a more detailed charter provision than most. Thank you 644 02:17:52,559 --> 02:17:57,559 to wise doctors. A lot of them only contain a 645 02:17:56,080 --> 02:18:02,160 sentence. We have a whole paragraph titled relationship of council 646 02:18:00,160 --> 02:18:07,359 to administrative service. So I won't take any more of your time, but I 647 02:18:04,559 --> 02:18:12,559 recommend it to your reading. It's it's one of the more strongly worded ones. 648 02:18:09,920 --> 02:18:16,679 Good. Yeah. Then no redundancy. you know, when you look at the 649 02:18:13,599 --> 02:18:21,599 administrative side of the organization, um there's a I don't want to call it 650 02:18:20,000 --> 02:18:25,760 redundancy, it's not quite the right word, but there's an ability, right, 651 02:18:23,439 --> 02:18:31,120 when there's a vacancy, when people are out out for an extended period, right, 652 02:18:28,399 --> 02:18:34,559 whatever, that people can cover for each other, right? It's one of the great 653 02:18:32,800 --> 02:18:39,439 things about having an organization, right? You can have one person out and 654 02:18:36,639 --> 02:18:44,000 the rest will pitch in, right, and make sure that the work continues to be done. 655 02:18:42,160 --> 02:18:48,800 But let's say at the level of the council 656 02:18:46,000 --> 02:18:54,160 um you know a couple of you or more than a couple of you had your attention 657 02:18:50,719 --> 02:18:59,439 diverted away from the big picture high altitude priorities of the organization 658 02:18:56,800 --> 02:19:04,160 and you got pulled into what's happening today or what happened yesterday. Is 659 02:19:02,000 --> 02:19:08,240 there the rest of the council or other people who are going to be able to say, 660 02:19:06,399 --> 02:19:13,120 "Okay, well, they're out for the count. We'll just pitch in for now while their 661 02:19:10,880 --> 02:19:18,000 attention is diverted." No, because there is no redundancy at your level. 662 02:19:15,599 --> 02:19:22,319 So, there's no ability for anybody else to be able to say, "Okay, well, we'll 663 02:19:20,080 --> 02:19:25,920 pitch in and uncover for that person while their attention is diverted." 664 02:19:26,880 --> 02:19:35,519 So this is an area that I think is related to legislative versus 665 02:19:32,559 --> 02:19:41,960 administrative and then you know your role versus personnel matters, right? Um 666 02:19:38,800 --> 02:19:47,800 and this is where I think I mentioned your charter. There you go. 667 02:19:44,399 --> 02:19:51,520 There it is. I love this charter provision. Right. It you're right. It's 668 02:19:49,920 --> 02:19:55,920 a whole paragraph. The whole paragraph. It's not the typical sentence. Agreed. 669 02:19:53,840 --> 02:20:01,680 Yeah. So except for the purpose of inquiry, the council, each member, the 670 02:19:58,960 --> 02:20:07,600 mayor and each council committee shall deal with the administrative service 671 02:20:04,319 --> 02:20:14,560 solely through the town manager, right? And um no elected official shall give 672 02:20:11,680 --> 02:20:21,240 orders to any employee of the town, right? Publicly or privately. Um now we 673 02:20:18,080 --> 02:20:27,840 do have the except for purposes of inquiry right to say uh each member 674 02:20:25,520 --> 02:20:34,399 shall deal with the town manager solely through the mayor. Um and so there's 675 02:20:30,560 --> 02:20:40,200 this sort of inquiry exception, right? But I'll just say this about inquiries 676 02:20:37,120 --> 02:20:46,560 from council members. Um, I don't know if you think of 677 02:20:42,880 --> 02:20:51,960 yourselves this way, but at this point once you took the oath of office, you 678 02:20:48,960 --> 02:20:57,680 became the center of the municipal universe. I'm not exaggerating, am 679 02:20:54,840 --> 02:21:03,680 I? Right. You are the center of the municipal universe and the eyes are on 680 02:21:01,280 --> 02:21:07,520 you. Right? They're looking at the questions you ask. They're looking at 681 02:21:05,760 --> 02:21:12,319 whether you're smiling or you have a frowny face on, right, when they're 682 02:21:09,560 --> 02:21:18,720 talking. Um, and they're listening to the questions that you may be asking for 683 02:21:15,120 --> 02:21:23,359 purposes of inquiry, right? And you may be saying, I just wanted to ask the 684 02:21:20,800 --> 02:21:27,920 question for my clarification. So, I picked up the phone and called. But what 685 02:21:25,840 --> 02:21:34,000 the other person may be hearing at the other end of the line is how high do I 686 02:21:31,200 --> 02:21:38,880 jump? Right? because you are the center of the municipal universe. Uh and so 687 02:21:36,399 --> 02:21:44,800 they're trying to read into right everything you say, do uh your facial 688 02:21:42,479 --> 02:21:51,680 expressions because you have that importance uh within the community. And 689 02:21:47,280 --> 02:21:58,399 so I I do think even um using this inquiry exception has to be done with 690 02:21:54,960 --> 02:22:04,720 great caution in a private or a public context. So it's very it's very similar 691 02:22:02,240 --> 02:22:10,359 to being the commander of a military unit or being a high ranking officer. 692 02:22:07,760 --> 02:22:14,720 When you walk in and talk to a group of soldiers, I've had a little bit of 693 02:22:12,640 --> 02:22:22,080 experience with this. They think you're giving direction all the 694 02:22:17,560 --> 02:22:26,880 time. And so um it's something that we talk about with the staff. We say a 695 02:22:24,240 --> 02:22:32,399 single council member never is giving direction on a matter. If we need 696 02:22:29,840 --> 02:22:38,000 direction on a matter, we take it back and get direction. Um, doesn't mean you 697 02:22:36,080 --> 02:22:43,680 don't have preferences and things that you want to see happen or not happen as 698 02:22:40,080 --> 02:22:49,040 the case may be, but we talk about that so that people are reminded when they 699 02:22:46,640 --> 02:22:54,080 talk to you that it's not specific direction. 700 02:22:51,040 --> 02:22:58,319 Yeah, good analogy, Tom. Yeah. And so that makes it sometimes a lonely job, I 701 02:22:56,800 --> 02:23:03,280 think, right? Because you have to be real careful about not just the 702 02:23:00,240 --> 02:23:11,640 realities, but the the appearance of the ways in which communicate with other 703 02:23:06,000 --> 02:23:11,640 human beings within the organization. So 704 02:23:12,399 --> 02:23:20,080 um yeah, so your question for clarification could be an order or 705 02:23:17,280 --> 02:23:24,319 instruction from the receiving end. So, you know, it sounds like you guys have 706 02:23:22,080 --> 02:23:28,640 talked about this issue and that you have established the process and of 707 02:23:26,160 --> 02:23:32,640 course try to provide some guidance. So, you know, when in 708 02:23:30,040 --> 02:23:36,560 doubt, it might tell him, right? He'll get the answer that you need. I think 709 02:23:34,640 --> 02:23:41,359 that's always the most comfortable way of doing it. Um, and of course, there 710 02:23:38,960 --> 02:23:46,240 are times when you literally are a citizen, right? Wanting to know 711 02:23:43,600 --> 02:23:51,520 something that you need as a citizen. Uh, and so I'm not saying you can't even 712 02:23:48,720 --> 02:23:56,399 do that, but still once you put that council member hat on, it is on for the 713 02:23:53,840 --> 02:24:00,280 duration. So you have to be careful even when you're when you think you're just 714 02:23:58,479 --> 02:24:05,359 asking as a citizen. You're not seen as a citizen 715 02:24:05,960 --> 02:24:14,240 or speaking with one voice I think is kind of related to that. Have you guys 716 02:24:11,439 --> 02:24:21,240 uh been in the situation yet where uh the vote was 43 and you were a part of 717 02:24:16,960 --> 02:24:27,840 the three, you know, six to one? Yeah, it happens and it's 718 02:24:25,160 --> 02:24:33,439 painful. But the worst thing you can do then as sort of the the defenders in any 719 02:24:31,200 --> 02:24:39,439 given decision is to say, "Well, that's not my decision, right? It is the 720 02:24:36,160 --> 02:24:46,160 decision of the body and I will respect it even though I didn't vote for it 721 02:24:42,560 --> 02:24:51,359 because at some other time I will be part of the majority and I would expect 722 02:24:48,560 --> 02:24:56,160 the same kind of respect from those that voted on the other side from me. Right? 723 02:24:53,680 --> 02:25:01,359 So speaking with one voice very very important. Um using your direct reports 724 02:24:59,280 --> 02:25:07,439 effectively as a resource and then speaking in terms of we not I. I don't 725 02:25:04,319 --> 02:25:12,479 sense this as an issue in Bristol, but uh certainly if you were to model 726 02:25:09,439 --> 02:25:15,479 yourselves after other levels of government, 727 02:25:16,160 --> 02:25:24,319 be better modeling opportunities available. 728 02:25:19,720 --> 02:25:28,960 But municipal officials currently are the grown-ups in the room. Okay. So 729 02:25:26,960 --> 02:25:34,399 thank you very much for being the room in the room and modeling right how to 730 02:25:32,479 --> 02:25:39,040 work with each other how to communicate with each other and one of those 731 02:25:36,319 --> 02:25:46,240 modeling behaviors is speaking in terms of and not I right even before you know 732 02:25:43,280 --> 02:25:52,560 these times of turmoil I think it was very frequent to see right 733 02:25:49,880 --> 02:26:00,240 individual be it commissioners or state legislators and certainly at the federal 734 02:25:55,520 --> 02:26:05,200 level They're all I right. I I I um and I kind of feel like that's one of the 735 02:26:02,479 --> 02:26:10,560 natural consequences of partisan government. And I'm not saying partisan 736 02:26:08,479 --> 02:26:15,439 government is bad at all. There's a place for partisan government, but it is 737 02:26:13,280 --> 02:26:20,080 not municipal government, right? Municipal government is nonpartisan. And 738 02:26:17,840 --> 02:26:26,640 so, you know, speaking in terms of we and not I is very very important as is 739 02:26:24,000 --> 02:26:31,240 your responsibility to try and sort out and reconcile differences as opposed to 740 02:26:30,000 --> 02:26:36,640 standing ones and committing to honoring, you 741 02:26:34,160 --> 02:26:42,359 know, the priorities and the agenda of the council as a 742 02:26:38,840 --> 02:26:47,840 whole. Does that make sense? All right. So many of these 743 02:26:45,600 --> 02:26:52,560 topics can be explored in greater detail. Uh Sam Wid or I are always happy 744 02:26:50,319 --> 02:26:57,040 to to come back for for training on any of them and I hope you'll take a look at 745 02:26:54,720 --> 02:27:00,040 our our website and peruse the publication. 746 02:27:00,640 --> 02:27:04,399 Okay. Thank you all so much. Thank 747 02:27:08,040 --> 02:27:12,840 you. Some time for a break. 748 02:27:21,000 --> 02:27:25,000 Yes, break. 749 02:27:26,080 --> 02:27:30,600 Good call. Yeah, you're doing great. 750 02:38:53,120 --> 02:39:00,760 So, perfect. Okay, I'm going to email them right now. 751 02:39:54,720 --> 02:39:57,880 What's that? 752 02:40:05,760 --> 02:40:08,000 Oh 753 02:40:08,920 --> 02:40:18,520 yeah. So, let's go around the next 754 02:40:20,320 --> 02:40:25,680 [Laughter] 755 02:40:26,640 --> 02:40:31,080 That truly means there's nothing. 756 02:40:36,800 --> 02:40:40,359 It's a great movie. 757 02:40:45,040 --> 02:40:48,600 It was very good. 758 02:40:50,880 --> 02:40:58,720 It probably makes it look a lot more interesting than it actually 759 02:40:55,160 --> 02:40:58,720 is, but there's 760 02:41:19,000 --> 02:41:27,120 definitely trying to believe it that he was only 80 80% of those are 761 02:41:25,200 --> 02:41:32,680 living and actually get to participate because you've got to be under 80 762 02:41:31,120 --> 02:41:37,160 you have to be under 80 I think it's under be over 80 763 02:41:36,080 --> 02:41:43,000 at any rate believe of the voting membership 764 02:41:40,640 --> 02:41:47,520 appointed like 80% or something one would think 765 02:41:47,640 --> 02:41:53,160 church in people. 766 02:41:53,600 --> 02:42:00,600 Well, that's where the that's where the politics 767 02:41:58,600 --> 02:42:05,720 hopefully get a little go back to Dan Brown, please. 768 02:42:18,880 --> 02:42:26,359 Thank you for canceling that so quickly. Thank you for your 769 02:42:23,120 --> 02:42:26,359 quick response. 770 02:42:28,960 --> 02:42:35,439 We're only talking here everyone. This is a secret 771 02:42:32,439 --> 02:42:35,439 secret 772 02:42:40,040 --> 02:42:49,840 email. Alex is on. Okay, good. How do we make her a 773 02:42:46,960 --> 02:42:55,439 presenter? Make her bigger. Make her bigger and make her a presenter. And 774 02:42:52,000 --> 02:43:01,640 yeah, can you give me sharing request or sharing share screen? And hello 775 02:42:57,359 --> 02:43:01,640 everyone. Great to see you. Hello. 776 02:43:02,399 --> 02:43:10,880 Uh everyone um as we as Stacy gets everything prepped, this is the 777 02:43:08,000 --> 02:43:16,600 discussion of the 95% comprehensive plan review. Um, Chris Vald is of course 778 02:43:14,640 --> 02:43:22,840 Bumies or Belz. Whatever. I don't want to be doing 779 02:43:19,439 --> 02:43:22,840 an oil spill. 780 02:43:24,160 --> 02:43:32,399 Of course, our town planner will and we also have a presentation. 781 02:43:29,920 --> 02:43:38,240 Take it away. All right. Well, thank you for your time tonight, town council. We 782 02:43:34,720 --> 02:43:42,080 are so excited to present the 95% draft. It's really quick work session tonight 783 02:43:40,319 --> 02:43:47,200 and this is kind of like your last chance before we do the adoption hearing 784 02:43:44,080 --> 02:43:52,080 on May 13th. Put any last tweaks into it. Um in the staff report you can see 785 02:43:49,840 --> 02:43:57,279 we I believe we addressed all the comments from the 80% draft from the 786 02:43:54,080 --> 02:44:00,640 town council. So um we're just super excited to present this plan to you. I'm 787 02:43:59,359 --> 02:44:05,760 really excited about the future of Frisco. So Allison, I'm gonna let you 788 02:44:03,040 --> 02:44:12,560 take it away. Oh, let me introduce her. Allison faculty with the um design 789 02:44:09,080 --> 02:44:18,399 workshop and then okay I lost Alex but Alex was on there also part of the team 790 02:44:14,560 --> 02:44:23,760 from design workshop so take it away all great well thank you um it's so great to 791 02:44:21,200 --> 02:44:28,000 be here with all of you um and really looking forward to hearing some comments 792 02:44:25,200 --> 02:44:33,439 and feedback um we have a short amount of time so I'm going to try and move 793 02:44:29,840 --> 02:44:36,880 this um quickly to allow for you all to have a little bit of time for discussion 794 02:44:35,279 --> 02:44:41,200 So, I've got about 20 minutes of presentation here and we know that 795 02:44:39,200 --> 02:44:46,160 you've seen and been extensively involved in this process and so we may 796 02:44:43,920 --> 02:44:50,240 go through this pretty quickly. Um, but please just flag if there's anything you 797 02:44:48,240 --> 02:44:54,439 want us to cover in more detail or write down any questions and we're happy to 798 02:44:52,399 --> 02:44:59,920 address those at the end. So, as you may know, we have a deep 799 02:44:57,680 --> 02:45:04,479 bench of consultants supporting this project. Um, Jessica has been PIC. She's 800 02:45:02,720 --> 02:45:09,920 not able to be here tonight. she is on an airplane. Um, but we've also worked 801 02:45:06,800 --> 02:45:14,399 with uh Tool Transportation and Planning um and Spirit Environmental um and then 802 02:45:12,479 --> 02:45:19,560 with our in-house strategic services team to really round out um the 803 02:45:17,439 --> 02:45:24,800 information that's ultimately in this plan. Um as you know, comprehensive 804 02:45:22,399 --> 02:45:30,240 plans are by nature comprehensive. They look a lot at land use, but also all the 805 02:45:27,680 --> 02:45:33,920 other elements of how the town works and really thinking about how this is a 806 02:45:31,920 --> 02:45:38,399 place, Frisco is a place to live, work, and play altogether. Um, we're really 807 02:45:36,560 --> 02:45:42,560 excited. This plan's forward thinking and it's, I think, really thoughtfully 808 02:45:40,399 --> 02:45:47,200 addressing growth and development for the future of Frisco in a way that's 809 02:45:44,319 --> 02:45:51,200 really just genuine to your community. Um, we also want to make sure that we 810 02:45:49,359 --> 02:45:55,359 check all the boxes and make sure that it meets state requirements. Um, we 811 02:45:53,760 --> 02:46:00,160 really wanted to make sure that this has realistic goals that can be tracked. I 812 02:45:57,600 --> 02:46:04,640 hope you can see that in this plan. But really at the heart of it, this is the 813 02:46:02,000 --> 02:46:09,120 community's plans. So much engagement really informed the outcomes so that it 814 02:46:07,200 --> 02:46:13,520 can serve as a pl a path forward for your 815 02:46:11,000 --> 02:46:18,880 community. Um, so this is just a quick overview of of the last year. We kicked 816 02:46:16,000 --> 02:46:24,479 off this process last March. Um, kudos to the town for a, you know, kind of one 817 02:46:21,760 --> 02:46:28,000 year of a comprehensive plan. It's a lot of work and it was a lot of work by the 818 02:46:26,319 --> 02:46:33,319 town and the community to get to this point. So, um, thank you to everyone 819 02:46:30,319 --> 02:46:38,160 who's been part of this process. Um, and we're just we're so excited to 820 02:46:36,000 --> 02:46:43,600 be here um, at looking at potential adoption um, for May of this coming 821 02:46:41,279 --> 02:46:48,479 year. Um, and we'd also like to thank all of 822 02:46:46,240 --> 02:46:52,880 you who've been involved in meetings, in the working group, and especially staff. 823 02:46:50,800 --> 02:46:59,040 Um, they have put so much time and commitment to advancing the plan to get 824 02:46:55,520 --> 02:47:03,600 here. And so, just huge thank you to all of you who've reviewed throughout 825 02:47:01,120 --> 02:47:08,960 different parts of the processes um for staff and their involvement. And I think 826 02:47:05,600 --> 02:47:15,200 it really speaks to um the strength of this plan moving forward. 827 02:47:12,080 --> 02:47:20,479 So we'll share really briefly project process and key milestones um through 828 02:47:18,000 --> 02:47:25,279 where you can reflect it in the plan. And so the first thing is we know that 829 02:47:23,120 --> 02:47:32,000 Frisco's done a lot of great work in the past and this plan intended to build off 830 02:47:28,479 --> 02:47:37,920 of that to so to ensure alignment we had a past plans review. This is all 831 02:47:34,000 --> 02:47:41,960 captured in appendix C um as well um as just kind of on one summary page within 832 02:47:40,319 --> 02:47:48,000 the document. We also know that uh context 833 02:47:45,040 --> 02:47:53,279 is critical and so we did a robust existing condition summary. We developed 834 02:47:50,640 --> 02:47:58,000 four separate memorandum. Those are also found in the appendencies um in great 835 02:47:55,680 --> 02:48:02,800 detail highlighting everything from economic trends and a market profile, an 836 02:48:00,560 --> 02:48:07,120 ecological assessment, transportation assessment as well as kind of an overall 837 02:48:05,200 --> 02:48:11,920 understanding of the physical planning of the community. And this information 838 02:48:09,439 --> 02:48:18,439 was really important um to make sure that we're moving forward from um from a 839 02:48:15,120 --> 02:48:18,439 solid foundation. 840 02:48:18,960 --> 02:48:25,760 My favorite part of this project has been the community engagement. We had so 841 02:48:23,520 --> 02:48:32,399 many wonderful conversations with community members. Everything from focus 842 02:48:28,800 --> 02:48:38,399 groups with over 73 participants to um popup events outside coffee shops um and 843 02:48:35,920 --> 02:48:44,319 even attending a middle school football game. We just we had some really great 844 02:48:40,399 --> 02:48:48,960 conversations. Um, this section of the document tries to capture a summary of 845 02:48:46,560 --> 02:48:53,520 some of those comments as they informed the outcomes of the plan. And all of the 846 02:48:51,920 --> 02:48:58,319 different engagement summaries are captured in the appendex of the document 847 02:48:56,080 --> 02:48:58,319 as 848 02:48:58,840 --> 02:49:07,279 well. We also had a wonderful community working group. Um there were 20 849 02:49:05,040 --> 02:49:13,200 different local partners and individuals who really gave their time um to 850 02:49:10,880 --> 02:49:17,760 represent the community voice and I was so impressed with their thoughtfulness 851 02:49:16,160 --> 02:49:22,800 with their engagement and their understanding of the community to help 852 02:49:19,760 --> 02:49:27,520 us rightsize goals and strategies to really meet Frisco as well as help to 853 02:49:25,680 --> 02:49:33,279 guide us through the process to make sure that you know this is ultimately 854 02:49:29,840 --> 02:49:38,479 Frisco's plan. And so, um, just a huge ex huge extension of gratitude for all 855 02:49:36,000 --> 02:49:42,080 of the participants who dedicated their time, um, to this 856 02:49:42,520 --> 02:49:50,720 process. And as I've mentioned, this plan is truly Frisco's plan. Um, it's 857 02:49:48,240 --> 02:49:55,840 been shaped by the community um, and staff and leadership of this town. And 858 02:49:53,520 --> 02:50:00,800 as such we have the guiding principles which really serve as the organization 859 02:49:58,000 --> 02:50:06,880 of the plan itself um and kind of outline the strategies in subsequent 860 02:50:03,040 --> 02:50:11,040 chapters. So these are this is the town's vision. This is the town's values 861 02:50:09,439 --> 02:50:17,040 and and that's really been a driving force within this document. 862 02:50:14,880 --> 02:50:21,600 Um during our engagement events, we focused on understanding different ways 863 02:50:18,960 --> 02:50:26,720 that Frisco could address growth in the future um through scenario planning. And 864 02:50:24,240 --> 02:50:31,200 each of these one um ideas you see on the screen had certain tradeoffs and we 865 02:50:29,520 --> 02:50:35,680 had some really good conversations to gauge what's most important for the 866 02:50:33,200 --> 02:50:39,920 community. This was really critical because it's ultimately what informed 867 02:50:37,520 --> 02:50:44,560 the future land use map and combined kind of different pieces of each of 868 02:50:42,080 --> 02:50:49,600 these three plans into the document um that you see in front of 869 02:50:46,279 --> 02:50:54,080 you. So here's that future land use map. Um I won't spend too much time here, but 870 02:50:52,000 --> 02:50:59,040 as you all know, a future land use map is not zoning, but it's a tool for how 871 02:50:56,319 --> 02:51:04,800 to think about the future. And so this map really incorporates some of your 872 02:51:00,960 --> 02:51:09,840 past planning while also thinking ahead um to where some moderate changes might 873 02:51:07,279 --> 02:51:14,720 be able to incorporate um more of a sense of place and more opportunities 874 02:51:12,000 --> 02:51:19,040 for housing in the community. Um and many of those other values you saw on 875 02:51:16,640 --> 02:51:24,000 the past screen. And so some of those things are like extending Main Street 876 02:51:21,279 --> 02:51:27,760 area to include West Main as well as creating Summit Boulevard as its own 877 02:51:26,000 --> 02:51:33,279 district. and and that really came from all of you where we heard that different 878 02:51:30,960 --> 02:51:37,920 parts of Frisco have different needs and we want to make sure that we can capture 879 02:51:36,080 --> 02:51:43,680 the different needs of development in those areas as well. Um the land use 880 02:51:41,399 --> 02:51:49,439 classifications support this map and they're really more detailed to help 881 02:51:46,160 --> 02:51:53,680 guide some of the specific how-tos um for development in each of these uh 882 02:51:51,840 --> 02:51:59,200 classifications that you see on the left side of your screen. 883 02:51:55,680 --> 02:52:03,279 Um, we gave some pretty robust land use classifications 884 02:52:00,720 --> 02:52:07,040 um that dig a little bit deeper into what some of those uses might look like, 885 02:52:05,200 --> 02:52:11,600 how to think about connectivity within each of these areas, how to consider 886 02:52:09,279 --> 02:52:15,200 parks and open space, as well as circling back to economy, 887 02:52:13,200 --> 02:52:20,640 sustainability, and equity. So, making sure that each one of these areas thinks 888 02:52:17,439 --> 02:52:24,279 about those different core values um in a meaningful way. 889 02:52:24,560 --> 02:52:34,399 We also have a three-mile plan which is a requirement of a comprehensive plan 890 02:52:29,359 --> 02:52:39,760 and much of Frisco is within this um uh US Forest Service area and has kind of 891 02:52:37,359 --> 02:52:44,800 limited expansion geography especially with steep hillsides and with Lake 892 02:52:42,080 --> 02:52:48,560 Dylan. But the three mile plan is kind of this comprehensive look and includes 893 02:52:46,960 --> 02:52:53,520 information about what some adjacent planning areas might be. Um and then 894 02:52:51,359 --> 02:52:58,160 staff uh will provide subsequent information on this plan in a future 895 02:52:55,600 --> 02:53:02,319 appendex to the document. Um but this captures the the state requirement and 896 02:53:00,479 --> 02:53:07,600 and talks about some of the considerations for areas outside the 897 02:53:04,479 --> 02:53:07,600 physical boundary of 898 02:53:07,720 --> 02:53:16,000 FISO. Ah and then goals and strategies. This is really kind of the meat of the 899 02:53:12,399 --> 02:53:20,399 document. This is includes programs, policies, projects. really kind of 900 02:53:18,399 --> 02:53:28,399 thinking about the how do you achieve this moving forward. Um, and this is 901 02:53:24,720 --> 02:53:33,120 meant to help guide uh achieving that the flume that I just shared as well as 902 02:53:30,560 --> 02:53:36,240 providing more of a to-do list that will help the town in 903 02:53:37,080 --> 02:53:45,920 implementation. And so, you know, this um this just kind of shows that we have 904 02:53:42,880 --> 02:53:51,840 really robustly vetted this plan through the process. Um, we had a 50% draft that 905 02:53:49,520 --> 02:53:57,439 was reviewed by town. We had a formatted 80% draft that was reviewed by many of 906 02:53:54,319 --> 02:54:01,600 you as well as the working group. Um, and we've incorporated community 907 02:53:59,600 --> 02:54:07,279 comments from an open comment period that had an open survey. All of that has 908 02:54:04,560 --> 02:54:12,319 been incorporated into this 95% draft that you see in front of you today. Um, 909 02:54:10,000 --> 02:54:18,399 we'll pick up a final round of comments to make that a 100% plan based on any 910 02:54:16,080 --> 02:54:22,359 conversations that we hear tonight as well as some conversations that we heard 911 02:54:20,080 --> 02:54:28,399 from planning commission as well. Um, and so we'll be looking we 912 02:54:26,000 --> 02:54:35,359 should change the date here today. Um, we'll be looking for plan adoption um in 913 02:54:30,880 --> 02:54:40,800 on May 13th during your um, uh, formal meeting. So, uh, we look forward to 914 02:54:38,080 --> 02:54:47,479 seeing you all then. We will be there um to to answer any questions and talk 915 02:54:43,920 --> 02:54:52,840 through that that final 100% draft. With that, um, that leads us to 916 02:54:50,880 --> 02:54:59,760 kind of this last piece of the draft discussion. Um, so this draft document, 917 02:54:58,000 --> 02:55:03,920 um, incorporates I'm going to share a little bit on future land use and a 918 02:55:01,439 --> 02:55:09,640 little bit on implementation. Those are the two pieces that um have changed a 919 02:55:06,479 --> 02:55:14,880 little bit since that 80% draft that you reviewed. Um so once again that future 920 02:55:12,399 --> 02:55:20,720 land use map really supporting as a tool for decision making and aligning future 921 02:55:17,920 --> 02:55:25,040 development with um where the town hopes to grow. So this can really be a tool 922 02:55:22,800 --> 02:55:31,240 when you see different applications come through to kind of guide that check and 923 02:55:27,600 --> 02:55:36,000 balance of does this line up with our future. As I mentioned, we have the 924 02:55:33,520 --> 02:55:41,880 future land use classifications which details out all of those colors on the 925 02:55:38,160 --> 02:55:48,000 map um through character and design criteria. And then something that we 926 02:55:44,080 --> 02:55:53,439 added between the 80% and 95% draft was um a discussion around sub area 927 02:55:50,920 --> 02:55:58,720 opportunities. We heard that there's certain differences in area especially 928 02:55:56,160 --> 02:56:03,479 like along west Maine. Rather than adding sub area classifications, 929 02:56:01,359 --> 02:56:08,080 uh we put into the document the opportunities which really highlights a 930 02:56:05,760 --> 02:56:11,920 more detailed explanation of design and planning concepts in these specific 931 02:56:12,120 --> 02:56:19,920 locations. And finally, uh the implementation matrix uh is intended to 932 02:56:17,680 --> 02:56:25,680 serve as a really easy to navigate resource. Um, once again, big uh big 933 02:56:23,279 --> 02:56:30,160 thank you to Chris and Katie and town staff who worked through this list to 934 02:56:28,240 --> 02:56:36,160 make sure that it's in alignment with a lot of the other elements um of town 935 02:56:33,479 --> 02:56:42,319 planning. And so this implementation matrix includes the some specific 936 02:56:39,359 --> 02:56:49,840 priority actions that fall under each of the goals. It highlights um who can take 937 02:56:45,680 --> 02:56:54,439 the lead or partner. Um the LMH stands for low, medium, high. What's the 938 02:56:51,760 --> 02:56:59,680 priority and the potential resources needed? Um and then we've identified 939 02:56:57,359 --> 02:57:05,040 areas of alignment. So those icons you see all the way um to the far right 940 02:57:02,560 --> 02:57:11,439 indicate there might be some crossover or alignment with other values 941 02:57:08,160 --> 02:57:18,560 uh in this plan. You know, it is comprehensive and these things are often 942 02:57:15,160 --> 02:57:23,680 interconnected. And so that's that. Um what as I said I'm hoping to keep a 943 02:57:20,479 --> 02:57:28,479 pretty quick high overview to allow you to provide your thoughts with us and and 944 02:57:25,920 --> 02:57:33,800 share any discussion points um while we have your time. So any questions? 945 02:57:36,720 --> 02:57:46,920 I know you and I have been through it enough I think. Um guys, any uh 946 02:57:42,880 --> 02:57:46,920 questions right now on that? 947 02:57:48,530 --> 02:57:56,920 [Music] I do want to add the with um attachment 948 02:57:53,760 --> 02:58:03,200 C, what staff decided to do was take the approved CIP and compare it to the goals 949 02:58:00,720 --> 02:58:08,240 and policies in the comprehensive plan. And so some of the changes that we're 950 02:58:05,520 --> 02:58:12,160 still kind of massaging through is to make sure if something is a priority and 951 02:58:10,240 --> 02:58:16,640 funded and it's not mentioned in the comprehensive plan, we're going to get 952 02:58:13,840 --> 02:58:20,399 it in there before the 100% draft or if there's something that's in the 953 02:58:18,080 --> 02:58:23,840 comprehensive plan unfunded. We don't see it happening in the next 10 years. 954 02:58:22,479 --> 02:58:27,840 We're actually going to modify that language to say if funding becomes 955 02:58:26,000 --> 02:58:31,040 available because we want it in the comprehensive plan in case a grant 956 02:58:29,520 --> 02:58:34,319 opportunity comes up, something like that. and we really want to make sure 957 02:58:32,880 --> 02:58:40,560 that something's already funded through the CIP that we have that support in the 958 02:58:37,680 --> 02:58:45,600 comprehensive plan and other documents. Great example of that is the the uh 959 02:58:43,680 --> 02:58:50,000 trail connection uh underneath the highway perhaps at 10 960 02:58:47,920 --> 02:58:53,760 Mile Creek. You know, it is not something we're going to fund ourselves, 961 02:58:51,920 --> 02:58:58,840 right? It's going to be an opportunity. Melan C dot gives us an opportunity 962 02:59:02,399 --> 02:59:08,720 So, we're really hoping the plan doesn't just sit on a shelf and collect dust for 963 02:59:06,399 --> 02:59:14,800 the next five years. We really want this to be implementable and we work through 964 02:59:11,359 --> 02:59:20,960 it when we're doing development with you and Ryan Rob or Zach and Robin, 965 02:59:17,800 --> 02:59:26,120 sorry, our work did go into that. I'm sure you read it for the second. 966 02:59:27,520 --> 02:59:35,359 What happens to it after adoption besides that we use it obviously does 967 02:59:33,200 --> 02:59:41,200 does it get reviewed by a state agency in any way? So we do have a grant from 968 02:59:38,720 --> 02:59:46,399 Dola and what we will do is send the draft or the final plan to them so that 969 02:59:43,439 --> 02:59:51,279 we meet the grant requirements but other than that it'll kind of be up on our 970 02:59:48,319 --> 02:59:56,880 website. We'll use it hopefully. I know Allison said she's really interested in 971 02:59:53,520 --> 03:00:01,680 entering it for um planning awards. So we shall see what happens with that. So 972 02:59:59,279 --> 03:00:05,600 hopefully it can be a guiding light for others. So all the partners that teamed 973 03:00:04,000 --> 03:00:11,040 up with staff, are they kind of out of the picture now? They still make 974 03:00:08,479 --> 03:00:14,399 comments occasionally or Yes, I'm still getting emails from some of the working 975 03:00:12,560 --> 03:00:17,680 group, but it's not so much like change this in the plan now. It's more of like 976 03:00:16,160 --> 03:00:21,200 when is it going to get adopted? When can you share it out? When can I get it? 977 03:00:19,439 --> 03:00:24,319 Yeah, that's great. And then from developers, 978 03:00:23,359 --> 03:00:30,520 they're like when am I going to be subject to this? When am I 979 03:00:27,520 --> 03:00:30,520 Yeah. 980 03:00:31,359 --> 03:00:38,080 Okay, that's it. Yeah, thank you for the question. I'm really impressed with all 981 03:00:36,080 --> 03:00:45,319 of it. Like I said before, like it's very digestible, really understandable 982 03:00:41,040 --> 03:00:50,000 for someone just walking into this now and all the work you guys have put into 983 03:00:47,680 --> 03:00:57,279 it. Thank you. It's quite the not quite the tone. 984 03:00:54,160 --> 03:00:59,600 It's mostly appendix but yeah think it might be 985 03:01:01,720 --> 03:01:08,319 actually the but it's 100% we'll make sure copy if you're 986 03:01:11,479 --> 03:01:19,760 happy and thank you for the presentation and again we're going to see this on May 987 03:01:17,840 --> 03:01:23,560 13th on maybe a little business card that you would have that correct 988 03:01:23,680 --> 03:01:31,200 Thank you all. Okay. Well, thank you all. Um I just want everybody it's been 989 03:01:29,600 --> 03:01:34,880 such a pleasure working with you and I'm looking forward to seeing you on May 990 03:01:32,720 --> 03:01:41,120 13th. Absolutely. 991 03:01:37,200 --> 03:01:44,359 Thanks, Alison. Thanks, Alex. Thank you. 992 03:01:45,760 --> 03:01:57,000 Okay, I believe that is it for the Oh, sorry. It's okay. It's easily It's the 993 03:01:52,800 --> 03:01:57,000 open It's the open records act. 994 03:01:57,040 --> 03:02:05,520 Yeah. So, next up we uh we do have a little more training from open records 995 03:02:03,359 --> 03:02:12,080 training for just be warned, we're going to be done 996 03:02:06,960 --> 03:02:12,080 early. I do not have amendments on this. 997 03:02:14,359 --> 03:02:17,359 So 998 03:02:17,399 --> 03:02:26,640 give an opportunity to ask any followup questions you may have had. You've heard 999 03:02:23,479 --> 03:02:31,840 about decision making twice now and two meetings and trying to draw that 1000 03:02:29,160 --> 03:02:34,479 distinction and the distinction between the appropriate 1001 03:02:35,160 --> 03:02:43,600 bas you have on any of that now later any other time. I know 1002 03:02:41,000 --> 03:02:48,080 that presentations mine and Tammy tend to be similar and overlapping and 1003 03:02:45,640 --> 03:02:54,560 frankly I think that's good. I think a lot of this stuff is it takes a while to 1004 03:02:50,960 --> 03:02:59,640 sink in and sort of internalize it and be able to make better decisions on the 1005 03:02:57,279 --> 03:03:07,760 fly about what you're dealing with. Um so please if you have any I'm 1006 03:03:03,840 --> 03:03:13,520 happy to do that. Um, this meeting, this presentation I have on the Open Records 1007 03:03:09,680 --> 03:03:18,000 Act, um, while important and something that you should all be aware of, it's 1008 03:03:16,000 --> 03:03:22,399 really not anything that you're going to have to deal 1009 03:03:19,560 --> 03:03:25,520 with on any kind of regular basis. Maybe never at all, right? It's something you 1010 03:03:23,840 --> 03:03:30,479 should be aware of, but it's not going to come into play in your decision- 1011 03:03:27,120 --> 03:03:34,640 making. um like like the open meetings act and its limitations like the ethics 1012 03:03:32,640 --> 03:03:39,600 code and its limitations like quasi judicial decision-m this just kind of 1013 03:03:36,880 --> 03:03:44,560 happens and is won't require you to make any decisions but is something you 1014 03:03:41,040 --> 03:03:51,120 should be aware of um let's start with just some general definitions in big 1015 03:03:48,000 --> 03:03:55,960 picture um the act describes public records um and and declares them to be 1016 03:03:54,240 --> 03:04:04,080 open for inspection at all reasonable times it it defines A public record very 1017 03:03:59,800 --> 03:04:08,080 broadly as all writings made, maintained or kept by the state, any agency, 1018 03:04:06,399 --> 03:04:13,279 institution or political subdivision of the state that are and quote for use in 1019 03:04:11,359 --> 03:04:18,000 the exercise of functions required or authorized by law or administrative rule 1020 03:04:16,160 --> 03:04:22,720 or involving the receipt or expenditure of public funds. But if you break that 1021 03:04:20,479 --> 03:04:27,359 down just to the part that might be pertinent to you and writings that you 1022 03:04:24,479 --> 03:04:35,040 might make to your constituents, to council members, to Tom, to whomever, 1023 03:04:30,760 --> 03:04:40,720 right? Is it a writing paid for use in the exercise of functions authorized by 1024 03:04:38,359 --> 03:04:44,720 law? Your functions authorized by law are pretty broad, right? You're right 1025 03:04:42,960 --> 03:04:50,880 below the public, right? You can you can do virtually all functions. 1026 03:04:47,600 --> 03:04:55,520 So just about anything that that you're writing about that concerns the town or 1027 03:04:53,680 --> 03:05:01,200 its business is going to be a writing made for the using the exercise of the 1028 03:04:58,760 --> 03:05:05,800 function because it's just so darn broad when we're talking about about your 1029 03:05:03,040 --> 03:05:10,880 writings. Um individuals request copies of public 1030 03:05:09,040 --> 03:05:14,240 records relating to a particular subject matter. There is a substantial 1031 03:05:12,319 --> 03:05:18,479 likelihood that some public records would need to be disclosed. There are 1032 03:05:16,560 --> 03:05:23,960 exceptions to disclosure under the act and we're going to talk about that right 1033 03:05:19,840 --> 03:05:28,800 now. But the broad general rule is for disclosure and the narrow rules are the 1034 03:05:26,399 --> 03:05:33,120 exceptions to disclosure. Um that's something else I wanted to touch upon 1035 03:05:30,240 --> 03:05:38,120 just briefly. Most people envision the open records act or the federal freedom 1036 03:05:36,319 --> 03:05:44,319 of information act right the federal correlary as being all about hand over 1037 03:05:41,840 --> 03:05:47,680 the documents. I mean just just a big long discussion of hand over the 1038 03:05:46,240 --> 03:05:52,160 documents and that's really not what it's about open the the freedom of 1039 03:05:50,000 --> 03:05:59,600 information act and the state correlated their open records act are really a 1040 03:05:55,880 --> 03:06:04,560 thing and like you know you'll call our discussion of open meetings right about 1041 03:06:01,600 --> 03:06:09,600 the general policy beingness of a meeting but the exceptions being um for 1042 03:06:07,520 --> 03:06:12,359 executive sessions and things that there really is a public interest in keeping 1043 03:06:11,279 --> 03:06:18,160 private Here the open records act now goes to 1044 03:06:15,680 --> 03:06:22,960 the next step of you know some things there is a public interest in keeping 1045 03:06:20,160 --> 03:06:28,160 private and not disclosing and some things there are private interests in 1046 03:06:26,000 --> 03:06:32,560 not having the government disclose right we the government obtains lots of 1047 03:06:30,080 --> 03:06:37,359 private information about people that that could be disclosed right upon a 1048 03:06:35,680 --> 03:06:41,920 request unless there are exceptions that would allow us to hold it back. So, so 1049 03:06:39,680 --> 03:06:47,560 here you're you're dealing with both things the government may need to 1050 03:06:44,240 --> 03:06:54,940 temporarily keep confidential um excuse me or permanently depending on 1051 03:06:51,920 --> 03:06:59,840 on some of the some of the exceptions. [Music] 1052 03:06:56,840 --> 03:07:02,720 Um and not and not and it is not just dealing with its own interest as I said 1053 03:07:01,359 --> 03:07:06,880 the governmental interest in keeping something quiet for the time being but 1054 03:07:04,640 --> 03:07:11,680 the private interests in the information that that government tends to have. So 1055 03:07:09,279 --> 03:07:16,640 with that, I want to give you the first big broad general exception to the 1056 03:07:14,479 --> 03:07:21,720 records act and that is criminal justice records. Anything held down in the 1057 03:07:18,960 --> 03:07:26,479 police department um may well be disclosable, but that's under the 1058 03:07:23,680 --> 03:07:29,600 criminal justice records act provisions, right? It's separate and distinct from 1059 03:07:27,920 --> 03:07:34,080 the open records act because those are very separate and distinct 1060 03:07:31,040 --> 03:07:39,120 considerations as to when we let police investigatory records go for obvious 1061 03:07:36,000 --> 03:07:43,600 reasons, right? Um, you could get open records requests that would ask you to 1062 03:07:41,560 --> 03:07:47,760 reveal, you know, the records that provide evidence of the current status 1063 03:07:45,120 --> 03:07:52,960 of investigation. Investigation, right? You could, you know, just just all kinds 1064 03:07:49,680 --> 03:07:56,720 of things that need to be um kept confidential during investigatory phases 1065 03:07:55,120 --> 03:08:00,800 that would eventually be revealed at trial and the like. So, so that's the 1066 03:07:58,560 --> 03:08:04,240 first huge carve out is is none of what I'm going to say today applies to 1067 03:08:02,720 --> 03:08:07,880 criminal justice records. It's a whole separate act with a bunch of different 1068 03:08:05,840 --> 03:08:13,560 considerations and definitions. Privileged information, 1069 03:08:10,399 --> 03:08:17,040 that's primarily privileged communications, attorney client 1070 03:08:15,359 --> 03:08:21,840 communications. Whether I'm writing to Tom, I'm writing to the council, I'm 1071 03:08:18,800 --> 03:08:26,160 writing to any client representative. While the council could decide it wanted 1072 03:08:23,680 --> 03:08:29,920 to release that information, it wouldn't be released without the council's 1073 03:08:27,520 --> 03:08:35,319 approval because it's privileged and it is an exception to public records that 1074 03:08:32,319 --> 03:08:41,200 need to be disclosed. There's also this this 1075 03:08:37,640 --> 03:08:44,439 amorphous defined mostly by Kate's law privilege called the deliberative 1076 03:08:42,960 --> 03:08:48,000 process privilege. Kind of like the attorney 1077 03:08:46,560 --> 03:08:52,840 client. The idea of the attorney client privilege is you want clients to be able 1078 03:08:51,920 --> 03:08:58,640 to be open and honest completely, you know, 1079 03:08:57,120 --> 03:09:01,200 disclosing any and all relevant information. You want the attorneys to 1080 03:09:00,000 --> 03:09:05,040 be able to make the same kind of communications to their clients without 1081 03:09:03,040 --> 03:09:08,240 fear that what what we're saying here is going to go out into the public, right? 1082 03:09:06,960 --> 03:09:11,880 So we don't so we don't sort of self-limit communications whether from 1083 03:09:10,080 --> 03:09:16,560 the clients or the attorney's perspective. The same thing is true 1084 03:09:13,920 --> 03:09:19,680 under the delivery process privilege. This privilege is based upon the ground 1085 03:09:18,080 --> 03:09:23,279 I'm quoting here that quote public disclosure of certain communications 1086 03:09:21,600 --> 03:09:27,439 would deter the open exchange of opinions and recommendations between 1087 03:09:25,200 --> 03:09:31,359 governmental officials such as between Tom yourself or something that you 1088 03:09:29,520 --> 03:09:35,120 wanted to communicate with just I keep using as an example because you're one 1089 03:09:33,520 --> 03:09:41,680 of you're probably their main point of written contact other than perhaps 1090 03:09:37,560 --> 03:09:45,439 between each other. So the the point of this is it is intended to protect the 1091 03:09:43,760 --> 03:09:50,000 government's decision-making process, its consultive function and the quality 1092 03:09:47,359 --> 03:09:52,760 of decisions in order to withhold disclosure of any document under this 1093 03:09:51,680 --> 03:10:00,399 deliberative process privilege. The records custodian 1094 03:09:57,359 --> 03:10:03,439 Stacy over there must find and determine that the material is so candid or 1095 03:10:01,920 --> 03:10:06,560 personal that public disclosure is likely to stifle honest and frank 1096 03:10:05,200 --> 03:10:10,080 discussion within the government. So it's the same kind of thing, right? You 1097 03:10:08,080 --> 03:10:14,640 want you want the government to be able to tell its attorney anything and vice 1098 03:10:12,279 --> 03:10:18,640 versa. And with respect to some sensitive things, you also want to keep 1099 03:10:16,720 --> 03:10:23,120 lines of communication open without fear that every single thing I'm willing to 1100 03:10:20,240 --> 03:10:26,880 say, right? But again, there's got to be a finding that the material is so candid 1101 03:10:25,200 --> 03:10:30,040 or personal that public disclosure is likely to stifle honest and frank 1102 03:10:28,560 --> 03:10:34,640 discussion within the department. I have a hard time coming up 1103 03:10:32,240 --> 03:10:39,600 with examples, but but I will. Has that one been adjudicated? 1104 03:10:36,880 --> 03:10:44,840 We don't have we only have the definition from one or two cases. 1105 03:10:42,680 --> 03:10:49,680 Gotcha. What it means? Let me give you an 1106 03:10:47,800 --> 03:10:54,680 example. Something I think would probably qualify. 1107 03:10:51,920 --> 03:11:00,840 Let's say the town was going to consider adopting 1108 03:10:57,319 --> 03:11:07,439 regulations to concerning um or or to put more detail on on state 1109 03:11:04,800 --> 03:11:13,200 statutes concerning disclosure of the residences of people who have been um 1110 03:11:10,800 --> 03:11:18,439 convicted of of sexually oriented crimes. Okay. 1111 03:11:16,000 --> 03:11:22,800 um let's say as a council member you've had personal experience in 1112 03:11:20,880 --> 03:11:28,200 that area and I don't know whether it's an experience about you your 1113 03:11:24,680 --> 03:11:34,080 family siblings whatever it may be and I could I could see 1114 03:11:30,479 --> 03:11:38,479 communications right between each other or a council member to the manager 1115 03:11:36,560 --> 03:11:42,479 discussing the policy of this revealing that information saying here you know 1116 03:11:40,399 --> 03:11:46,319 this is kind of personal to me because and because of this I believe that we 1117 03:11:44,319 --> 03:11:49,920 ought to adopt unless it's a regular I think that would fit your deliberative 1118 03:11:47,520 --> 03:11:55,680 process, right? We don't want to stifle that kind of communication and and 1119 03:11:52,240 --> 03:11:59,520 releasing it would stifle it. That was a something you said in private that was 1120 03:11:57,760 --> 03:12:02,720 part of your deliberative process. So I I struggled to come up with examples, 1121 03:12:01,200 --> 03:12:07,120 but I think that's a a good one. something something where the 1122 03:12:04,319 --> 03:12:12,319 legislature legislator for expressing something personal relevant to the 1123 03:12:09,279 --> 03:12:15,200 legislative process that they that they wouldn't that you know that they 1124 03:12:13,439 --> 03:12:20,399 wouldn't want exposed publicly and you know they probably wouldn't have made 1125 03:12:16,960 --> 03:12:25,920 that communication had they knew it. So there's your deliberative process 1126 03:12:21,680 --> 03:12:25,920 privilege such such as it is 1127 03:12:26,680 --> 03:12:36,880 um oh certain correspondence of elected officials. So you can imagine, right, a 1128 03:12:33,399 --> 03:12:41,640 letter constituent to their their council member or one of their council 1129 03:12:39,080 --> 03:12:48,640 members discussing whatever issue that letter is open to disclosure 1130 03:12:45,840 --> 03:12:54,640 unless it expressly says or implies by its terms that the constituent would not 1131 03:12:51,439 --> 03:12:58,800 want the letter revealed. In that case, we can withhold it as under the 1132 03:12:57,200 --> 03:13:04,160 exception for what it's called circuit correspondence of elected officials. So 1133 03:13:01,600 --> 03:13:09,080 if the letter says, hey, please don't tell anybody that I know of this to you 1134 03:13:06,399 --> 03:13:15,760 or or you can imply it can withhold that disclosure 1135 03:13:12,479 --> 03:13:22,640 mandatory. So as I said that the the act is really this balancing act between um 1136 03:13:19,319 --> 03:13:27,279 disclosure and and protection both of things that should remain confidential 1137 03:13:24,240 --> 03:13:30,600 with the government or private interest um information about individuals that 1138 03:13:29,279 --> 03:13:35,359 the government is holding. So the act is broken into three 1139 03:13:33,359 --> 03:13:39,600 parts. Here are the documents you must disclose which is very broad as we 1140 03:13:37,359 --> 03:13:43,000 discussed. Here's a set of documents that you may or may not disclose 1141 03:13:41,600 --> 03:13:48,520 depending on the public interest involved in the matter. And then 1142 03:13:45,840 --> 03:13:53,760 finally, there's a list of mandatory um non-disclosure requirement. So here you 1143 03:13:51,279 --> 03:14:00,080 really start to get into personal interests of the individuals about whom 1144 03:13:56,080 --> 03:14:05,279 the record speaks. So, you know, some of this is quite quite intuitive. Medical, 1145 03:14:03,359 --> 03:14:08,560 mental health, sociological, and scholastic achievement data around 1146 03:14:06,960 --> 03:14:14,600 individual persons, right? We don't get a lot of that. School districts 1147 03:14:11,479 --> 03:14:21,239 do ton. Um, personnel files. This is really an 1148 03:14:18,960 --> 03:14:27,200 interesting one that again is counterintuitive. Here the act is really 1149 03:14:24,479 --> 03:14:34,399 forming the balancing of letting the world know um about the people who serve 1150 03:14:31,359 --> 03:14:38,880 the public and letting those individuals have some measure of privacy. So you 1151 03:14:37,760 --> 03:14:42,000 would think well if it's in the personnel file we just don't have to 1152 03:14:40,399 --> 03:14:46,120 disclose it. And actually that's not true because the act defines personnel 1153 03:14:44,720 --> 03:14:49,960 files very narrowly. 1154 03:14:48,720 --> 03:14:56,359 [Music] So for instance, we must disclose 1155 03:14:54,560 --> 03:15:02,319 overall performance evaluations but not individual ratings 1156 03:14:59,359 --> 03:15:08,040 on on individual items, right? It it keeps making these we must um we must 1157 03:15:05,560 --> 03:15:14,239 disclose how much money you make but not your address. 1158 03:15:11,920 --> 03:15:18,960 So it really is the balancing act of what things are really personnel files 1159 03:15:16,319 --> 03:15:22,560 meant to protect the the individual's personal interest and what and in what 1160 03:15:20,880 --> 03:15:27,680 part of those files the public interest prevail the public's right to know how 1161 03:15:25,680 --> 03:15:33,279 it's public employees perform what they're being paid etc. Um another 1162 03:15:31,279 --> 03:15:37,840 mandatory non-disclosure trade secrets privilege information confidential 1163 03:15:35,439 --> 03:15:42,279 commercial financial geological or geophysical data finished furnished by 1164 03:15:40,239 --> 03:15:50,319 or obtaining from any person a rarely used exception that 1165 03:15:48,040 --> 03:15:55,920 um I'll give you a good I'll give you the one good example I'm aware of 1166 03:15:52,720 --> 03:16:00,640 there's a municipality in the state that was his 1167 03:15:58,040 --> 03:16:06,920 will continue to negot negotiate with potential suitors to create a municipal 1168 03:16:03,359 --> 03:16:12,720 geothermal power system, geothermal heat system in receiving proposals to their 1169 03:16:10,520 --> 03:16:17,920 RFP. You know, this is kind of cutting edge technology geothermal and different 1170 03:16:14,960 --> 03:16:21,920 folks are doing it different ways. And so when they have come in to pitch the 1171 03:16:20,000 --> 03:16:25,920 municipality to say, "Here's what we do. Here's why we're better. Here's our 1172 03:16:23,680 --> 03:16:30,439 technique." Blah, blah, blah. Um, a lot of that stuff had to be withheld as as 1173 03:16:28,479 --> 03:16:35,040 trade secrets. Um, those private parties always also 1174 03:16:33,520 --> 03:16:37,680 want the deal that you just made with them to be secret as well. And you 1175 03:16:36,399 --> 03:16:40,800 always say, "No, that's you know, your your public deal with the public entity 1176 03:16:39,359 --> 03:16:44,319 is not one of your trade secrets. I understand you don't want your 1177 03:16:42,000 --> 03:16:49,680 competitors to know, but so again, the line between the private interest of the 1178 03:16:47,200 --> 03:16:54,880 commercial entity and the public's right to know." Um here's an interesting got 1179 03:16:52,560 --> 03:16:59,040 one that got added um in more recent years. Mandatory non-disclosure names, 1180 03:16:57,520 --> 03:17:03,600 addresses, telephone numbers and personal financial information of past 1181 03:17:00,880 --> 03:17:07,520 or present users of public utilities, public facilities, recreational or 1182 03:17:06,080 --> 03:17:10,920 cultural services that are owned and operated by state, its agencies, 1183 03:17:09,040 --> 03:17:15,760 institution or political subdivisions. Reason for that is 1184 03:17:13,680 --> 03:17:21,200 municipalities who are regularly getting requests. Please give me the name uh all 1185 03:17:19,520 --> 03:17:26,439 the records you have on any every individual to whom you have sold an 1186 03:17:23,520 --> 03:17:31,680 annual pass to your recreation center because they want a mailing list 1187 03:17:29,000 --> 03:17:35,120 for equipment sales or what you know they just they're just trying to mine 1188 03:17:33,200 --> 03:17:40,640 public information. So they they create this exception was very broad right 1189 03:17:38,000 --> 03:17:44,120 names addresses telephone numbers users of utilities public facilities 1190 03:17:42,479 --> 03:17:47,760 recreational services to to 1191 03:17:48,000 --> 03:17:53,200 records of sexual harassment complaints and 1192 03:17:51,080 --> 03:17:59,760 investigations. That's a very broad brush at this. And as a result 1193 03:17:57,000 --> 03:18:04,800 of disputes in recent years down under the Golden Dome and some claims of 1194 03:18:01,600 --> 03:18:09,439 sexual harassment, the legislature has seen fit to create enough exceptions to 1195 03:18:07,680 --> 03:18:13,120 claim records of sexual harassment complaints get released and when they 1196 03:18:10,880 --> 03:18:17,520 don't. a little outside the scope of this memo, but suffice to say that's one 1197 03:18:14,880 --> 03:18:17,520 of those areas 1198 03:18:18,120 --> 03:18:28,840 where privacy interests not to counter that public know. 1199 03:18:25,720 --> 03:18:35,200 Um, electronic mail, we touched on this just briefly, 1200 03:18:31,880 --> 03:18:40,399 but strongly recommend that you don't use your private email accounts to 1201 03:18:38,239 --> 03:18:44,800 conduct public business. And that means no public is any record made for the 1202 03:18:43,279 --> 03:18:49,520 purpose of exercise of functions authorized by 1203 03:18:47,319 --> 03:18:52,000 law for you to talk about the town or anything you're doing for the town or 1204 03:18:50,640 --> 03:18:57,439 anything the town's doing for you or anybody else without it meeting that 1205 03:18:54,279 --> 03:19:01,600 definition. Um, not only that over the email, but as I say, the likelihood is 1206 03:18:59,920 --> 03:19:06,160 when when these cases come to civil litigation, what you get is for 1207 03:19:03,920 --> 03:19:10,880 individuals to bring their laptop down to court and hand them over and they'll 1208 03:19:08,479 --> 03:19:15,800 get them back one day. It went on, you may remember 10 years ago, right? Went 1209 03:19:13,040 --> 03:19:19,600 on in a there was a big case in Summit County, the claiming of Summit County 1210 03:19:18,080 --> 03:19:24,239 government that resulted in a lot of people being without their laptops for a 1211 03:19:21,760 --> 03:19:30,080 brief period of time. how forensic scientist goes in and the area that none 1212 03:19:27,439 --> 03:19:35,560 of us can get to, but they can and find all the the deleted emails. Um, 1213 03:19:43,760 --> 03:19:51,760 the old mayor, Miles Porter, 1214 03:19:48,880 --> 03:19:54,960 no, this was one not involving us. This was a case. Yeah, this Yeah, we weren't 1215 03:19:53,760 --> 03:19:58,080 involved in this case. It was just Summit County. I just remember doing the 1216 03:19:56,479 --> 03:20:02,560 reading on it thinking, "Oh man, it's a bunch of people who are going to be 1217 03:19:59,680 --> 03:20:05,960 really mad because their phone, what are you going to do, right? You got to hand 1218 03:20:03,760 --> 03:20:09,279 this to somebody. Go to the Apple store first 1219 03:20:08,000 --> 03:20:13,600 and get another and download all your stuff." Can I ask a quick question? 1220 03:20:11,120 --> 03:20:19,439 Sure, please. Um, in reference to the laptops and private email, you and Tammy 1221 03:20:16,720 --> 03:20:23,680 were talking about earlier also. So Robin, is that a town laptop or is that 1222 03:20:21,520 --> 03:20:27,600 your person? So you know me and Zach here because 1223 03:20:25,520 --> 03:20:33,239 we're wise men. We have Apple products that we are in love with. Now 1224 03:20:37,359 --> 03:20:46,239 you know what I use on my I don't know if you do I use Apple Mail client. So I 1225 03:20:43,200 --> 03:20:51,319 pull up my mail and it has all my various email addresses. Yeah. Now I'm 1226 03:20:49,200 --> 03:20:57,479 only doing town on my town 1227 03:20:54,279 --> 03:21:02,840 email and it's going through somewhere something I'm sure to do with 1228 03:20:59,800 --> 03:21:09,720 Apple to eventually work through this client. Do you think that would result 1229 03:21:06,720 --> 03:21:09,720 in 1230 03:21:12,239 --> 03:21:20,720 right or wrong? Right. Right. And in that practical case, I mean that's the 1231 03:21:17,040 --> 03:21:26,800 reason that I only wherever I'm accessing my town email, I do do so 1232 03:21:25,680 --> 03:21:32,960 through the browser through the Microsoft client. I'm always using that 1233 03:21:30,000 --> 03:21:40,439 instead of going to a client doing going to a a client software online. I have a 1234 03:21:36,800 --> 03:21:40,439 feeling that might be 1235 03:21:42,600 --> 03:21:52,960 true. The remainder is is really just 1236 03:21:48,520 --> 03:21:57,439 a case study of the Baker Sales case, county 1237 03:21:55,000 --> 03:22:02,920 clerk was a guy by the name of Tracy Baker and he had an assistant named Lisa 1238 03:22:00,880 --> 03:22:07,200 Lisa Sale [Music] 1239 03:22:04,040 --> 03:22:15,200 and the assistant brought a sexual harassment hostile work base environment 1240 03:22:11,720 --> 03:22:22,319 claim that was that claim was was learned by the local press and the local 1241 03:22:18,399 --> 03:22:29,319 press made a request for uh any and all emails between Mr. maker 1242 03:22:25,720 --> 03:22:36,960 sale. Um the the fight was on about what what was 1243 03:22:33,920 --> 03:22:42,359 the nature of a public record. And you remember at the beginning of this the 1244 03:22:39,840 --> 03:22:48,120 the definition of a public record was is all writings made, 1245 03:22:46,239 --> 03:22:52,000 maintained or kept by the state any age institution subdivision of state that 1246 03:22:50,160 --> 03:22:58,080 are for use in the exercise of functions required or authorized by law. 1247 03:22:54,640 --> 03:23:02,000 administrative rule or involving the receipt or expenditure of public funds. 1248 03:22:59,920 --> 03:23:08,800 So, as you might imagine, it's not too hard to argue that romantic emails 1249 03:23:05,279 --> 03:23:12,720 between Mr. Baker and Miss Sale were not was not writings made for the use in the 1250 03:23:11,359 --> 03:23:16,239 exercise of functions required or authorized by law. They were having a 1251 03:23:14,720 --> 03:23:20,399 romantic relationship, right? Had nothing to do that. But the argument 1252 03:23:19,040 --> 03:23:24,800 that went all the way up to the Supreme Court was, well, wait a minute. it. 1253 03:23:23,279 --> 03:23:29,040 That's just one problem. The other problem is or these communications or 1254 03:23:27,520 --> 03:23:34,160 records involved the receipt or expenditure of public funds. But after 1255 03:23:31,680 --> 03:23:41,040 all, these were public computers on a public email. So that that Arapjo County 1256 03:23:37,200 --> 03:23:46,960 was was paying for by definition because they use this equipment. This this 1257 03:23:43,200 --> 03:23:51,040 involved the use or of of exercise involve the receipt or expenditure of 1258 03:23:48,399 --> 03:23:57,200 public funds. And so this goes all the way up to the Supreme Court. And the 1259 03:23:53,520 --> 03:24:02,640 Supreme Court holds that indeed they are not public records because they were not 1260 03:23:59,439 --> 03:24:07,680 made for functions authorized by law. And neither does the fact 1261 03:24:04,760 --> 03:24:12,720 that public computers were used and public email system were used 1262 03:24:10,200 --> 03:24:16,319 um mean that that record involves the expenditure receipt. They say you need 1263 03:24:14,720 --> 03:24:19,520 to read that more literally. Does this involve the receipt of you know does 1264 03:24:17,920 --> 03:24:22,640 this record involve the receipt? It's not it's not whether it was on a 1265 03:24:21,040 --> 03:24:28,239 computer system or done in a public building under under lights and a and a 1266 03:24:25,920 --> 03:24:35,120 climate control system that was paid for for instance. Um the uh I like this case 1267 03:24:33,040 --> 03:24:38,640 both because it's a really good result that really explains the difference 1268 03:24:37,359 --> 03:24:45,520 between what's public and what's private. I also really like really like 1269 03:24:42,080 --> 03:24:50,160 the the quote. After considering the content of the email messages as 1270 03:24:47,680 --> 03:24:53,439 required by the statute, we conclude that not all of the email messages that 1271 03:24:52,000 --> 03:24:57,200 issue here have a demonstrable connection to the performance of other 1272 03:24:55,239 --> 03:25:02,000 functions involving the receipt or expenditure of public funds. It is 1273 03:24:59,359 --> 03:25:06,439 apparent a large portion of the email messages instead contain only sexually 1274 03:25:04,160 --> 03:25:10,880 explicit exchanges between the baker and sale. Based on the content of the 1275 03:25:08,800 --> 03:25:14,000 emails, it is clear they were sent in furtherance of their personal 1276 03:25:12,160 --> 03:25:18,319 relationship and were not for use in the performance of public functions of the 1277 03:25:15,760 --> 03:25:21,520 reporters office. These messages demonstrate very private exchanges that 1278 03:25:20,160 --> 03:25:24,800 convey the quote every thought and feeling unquote of a public official 1279 03:25:23,439 --> 03:25:30,479 that we sought to safeguard from disclosure in wick the deliberative 1280 03:25:27,640 --> 03:25:34,080 process. So so intensely personal that we wouldn't have these communications 1281 03:25:31,920 --> 03:25:38,560 where you know we knew they're going to be disclosed. my favorite one. The only 1282 03:25:36,640 --> 03:25:43,040 discernable purpose of disclosing the content of these messages is to shed 1283 03:25:40,720 --> 03:25:47,200 light on the expressive Baker and sales fluency with sexually explicit 1284 03:25:44,680 --> 03:25:52,560 terminology and to satisfy the period interests of the press and the 1285 03:25:49,080 --> 03:25:57,080 public. It's just hilarious. Um, so at any rate, it 1286 03:25:53,800 --> 03:26:02,800 all this is meant to be more in the form of a friendly reminder. Be aware almost 1287 03:26:01,279 --> 03:26:06,439 anything you're going to write is going to be a public record. 1288 03:26:04,960 --> 03:26:11,800 There are some exceptions. They are limited. 1289 03:26:07,960 --> 03:26:17,920 Um could apply but not likely to instances. And if you're not if if you 1290 03:26:14,880 --> 03:26:22,960 aren't able to sign enough a day that at the end of the day that says I have only 1291 03:26:20,160 --> 03:26:30,000 ever communicated about town matters on my through my town email address. The 1292 03:26:26,399 --> 03:26:32,399 likelihood is that you that your email would be 1293 03:26:32,760 --> 03:26:40,239 examined. And that's what I've got. That would that mean if 1294 03:26:37,399 --> 03:26:45,840 uh theoretically then I mean if it got to that point to where would they then 1295 03:26:42,479 --> 03:26:45,840 say well we're not so sure 1296 03:26:45,960 --> 03:26:50,840 you also want to look at your 1297 03:26:51,479 --> 03:27:00,160 Yeah, it's a good question. think that in the face of an affidavit, the other 1298 03:26:57,279 --> 03:27:03,600 side would have to sh to the 1299 03:27:01,239 --> 03:27:07,920 contrary because the court was going to take that affidavit at face value for 1300 03:27:06,319 --> 03:27:11,279 what it is and then expect something contrary from the other side before 1301 03:27:10,080 --> 03:27:15,560 they're just going to order you. Well, the other side says they don't believe 1302 03:27:12,560 --> 03:27:19,560 you. Well, why doesn't believe you? Is there any reason? Are they just 1303 03:27:17,840 --> 03:27:24,880 on a fishing expedition? So I think if you really didn't and we 1304 03:27:22,399 --> 03:27:28,040 really could provide that up to David I don't think 1305 03:27:31,520 --> 03:27:41,279 how does that work with texting if so I didn't get a new 1306 03:27:39,520 --> 03:27:47,560 phone number so if I'm like texting 1307 03:27:44,279 --> 03:27:53,160 somebody then it's all of my phone records catch. We're all in catch. 1308 03:27:53,760 --> 03:27:59,479 I mean, it's, you know, I take that risk because 1309 03:27:57,520 --> 03:28:05,200 I haven't I haven't separated out that 1310 03:28:02,479 --> 03:28:10,720 stuff. I do all my personal business and my I mean, email is still a separate 1311 03:28:07,920 --> 03:28:16,640 client, but texting I have decided not to. I take the risk. I Yeah, I I enjoy 1312 03:28:15,040 --> 03:28:23,120 the protection of the attorney client privilege and I And I often find myself 1313 03:28:20,399 --> 03:28:26,880 acting out that last sentence, right? Nonetheless, because I just wouldn't 1314 03:28:24,640 --> 03:28:30,680 want it read. There's there's no such thing as manager client. 1315 03:28:34,160 --> 03:28:37,160 Yeah. 1316 03:28:37,760 --> 03:28:45,319 get on the phone. Now, in case it would be 1317 03:28:42,640 --> 03:28:51,279 interesting because you have HIPPA involved with your professional 1318 03:28:48,439 --> 03:28:56,960 work, too. I have a different Oh, you do? So, you 1319 03:28:53,920 --> 03:29:01,080 you have to be careful about it. Yeah. That stuff, too. So, I'm a little less 1320 03:28:59,439 --> 03:29:07,279 conservative than on the serial meetings. Yeah. The 2 1321 03:29:04,640 --> 03:29:12,680 by twos. coco it all they want the legislature 1322 03:29:09,200 --> 03:29:19,439 changes the right statute it's not illegal you know just look at scans all 1323 03:29:16,160 --> 03:29:24,319 they want to me it doesn't even look that bad I guess that's just my 1324 03:29:21,439 --> 03:29:30,640 perception me I mean I'm trying to think of situations where because sometimes we 1325 03:29:27,359 --> 03:29:35,840 do that in regards to like when we're uh starting to uh prepare the budget for 1326 03:29:33,200 --> 03:29:40,160 the council and we have meetings to say this is where this is what's coming your 1327 03:29:37,520 --> 03:29:45,200 way. We're not seeking a decision like that. Yeah. We're preparing for it's a 1328 03:29:43,359 --> 03:29:49,279 little different. I just don't know where you draw line. One official 1329 03:29:47,680 --> 03:29:53,200 meeting with another public official and talking they want and then rinse and 1330 03:29:51,680 --> 03:29:56,399 repeat. I I just can't see the courts ever 1331 03:29:54,800 --> 03:30:03,880 coming up with the rules that you can't do that. It's just not human nature. 1332 03:29:59,920 --> 03:30:03,880 It's too much to ask. 1333 03:30:06,319 --> 03:30:13,520 And and again, I said it several times in the 1334 03:30:08,920 --> 03:30:18,000 memo, open records um requests are not always easy 1335 03:30:14,840 --> 03:30:24,319 questions. Please don't hesitate, right? If you have Absolutely. Please. 1336 03:30:21,200 --> 03:30:29,040 It's it's often a complex analysis and often Chad well not often but what would 1337 03:30:26,800 --> 03:30:35,760 you say Stacy you and I talk in detail about 30 to 50% of all of the open 1338 03:30:31,600 --> 03:30:35,760 records you request receive at 1339 03:30:37,160 --> 03:30:45,200 least judgment and knowing what part of a person file to come out because you 1340 03:30:42,560 --> 03:30:49,760 must release it and others if you can't. As a county manager, we ran all of our 1341 03:30:47,920 --> 03:30:52,960 open records requests through the attorney's office just 1342 03:30:53,239 --> 03:31:02,239 because some legal question and it was just easier to not be scrutinized on it 1343 03:31:00,239 --> 03:31:05,680 from that perspective. And it's always a fire drill. We have three days. Yeah. 1344 03:31:03,920 --> 03:31:11,520 Unless we can show extenduating circumstances like our clerk is on 1345 03:31:08,000 --> 03:31:15,520 vacation or our our whoever it is. We have a finance director getting a budget 1346 03:31:13,439 --> 03:31:20,960 ready and is jammed for two may be. But then we got to write a letter to July. 1347 03:31:18,239 --> 03:31:26,080 Um there's a bill in the legisure this this year trying to extend that to five 1348 03:31:23,920 --> 03:31:32,720 days which would be really nice. It's three 1349 03:31:28,200 --> 03:31:32,720 days. Surely you can wait till the 1350 03:31:36,840 --> 03:31:42,040 United and all records related too. 1351 03:31:48,359 --> 03:31:58,000 So again, always encourage questions on any of these topics as they arise. I 1352 03:31:54,160 --> 03:32:02,080 know this is all brand new. Thanks. Um just about the difference between 1353 03:32:01,040 --> 03:32:07,760 well I guess I understand the differenceial meetings. Y maybe maybe 1354 03:32:05,600 --> 03:32:14,840 some clarification around like at what point should you stop meeting with 1355 03:32:11,520 --> 03:32:14,840 council members? 1356 03:32:15,000 --> 03:32:23,359 Well at the point at which well at any time when you're dealing with a quasi 1357 03:32:20,880 --> 03:32:29,040 judicial map just with that we're sorry. So with that 1358 03:32:26,239 --> 03:32:32,560 it's definitely I mean yeah yeah that is that that's the definite if it's going 1359 03:32:30,560 --> 03:32:37,840 to be a quasi judicial matter and you should understand even if the decision 1360 03:32:34,960 --> 03:32:44,120 isn't coming to you for the final decision quote unquote like our planning 1361 03:32:39,760 --> 03:32:48,840 commission lots of land use um applications um have their final 1362 03:32:46,319 --> 03:32:54,040 decision made by the planning commission unless they are appealed to the council. 1363 03:32:52,080 --> 03:33:00,000 And virtually any planning commission decision is going to be quasi judicial 1364 03:32:57,439 --> 03:33:03,279 and they can all be appealed by any party in interest in the decision. So 1365 03:33:01,600 --> 03:33:08,479 that means not just the applicant but any member of the public that 1366 03:33:06,640 --> 03:33:14,960 uh believe it's by writing within 10 days of the decision or any two council 1367 03:33:12,000 --> 03:33:19,359 members can call in and basically the council creates the appeal. So even 1368 03:33:17,439 --> 03:33:24,800 though you may not be the first decision maker and you may not ever be a decision 1369 03:33:22,040 --> 03:33:29,200 maker because you are the appellent body on a lot of those decisions the rules 1370 03:33:27,359 --> 03:33:34,080 apply you're just an appeals court judge instead of a trial court judge same 1371 03:33:31,600 --> 03:33:40,680 rules and it's on the potential as you noted that it might 1372 03:33:36,680 --> 03:33:40,680 not actually 1373 03:33:45,680 --> 03:33:51,760 in terms of Legislative decision. Okay, legislative. 1374 03:33:49,920 --> 03:33:55,120 You talk all you want to, whenever you want, whenever you want, so long as 1375 03:33:53,200 --> 03:34:00,160 you're only talking with one other council member at a time to violate the 1376 03:33:57,920 --> 03:34:07,640 meeting. So maybe I misunderstood that earlier. Serial meetings are okay for 1377 03:34:03,200 --> 03:34:13,359 legislative things, but not for serial meeting. I never really heard somebody 1378 03:34:11,040 --> 03:34:16,319 talk about it. Yeah. a serial meeting. The only thing that I would say 1379 03:34:14,399 --> 03:34:21,439 qualifies as a serial meeting prohibited by the open records act is email goes 1380 03:34:18,960 --> 03:34:26,319 from council A to council B gets forwarded on to councelor C. You just 1381 03:34:23,600 --> 03:34:30,279 had a meeting because three of you just about 1382 03:34:27,239 --> 03:34:35,760 something on the legislative matters talk with whatever other 1383 03:34:32,399 --> 03:34:41,760 counselor you want whenever you want to. Yeah, sure. That's what I thought. 1384 03:34:37,359 --> 03:34:45,200 That's what I think. Yes. Like she said, it's why it's hard to understand because 1385 03:34:43,359 --> 03:34:52,000 we are just almost completely diametrically opposed rules. I can think 1386 03:34:47,760 --> 03:34:55,200 of a situation. Let's say um myself or staff were trying to 1387 03:34:55,800 --> 03:35:06,239 avoid getting a a decision made by the council. And we did it by 1388 03:35:03,720 --> 03:35:11,840 organizing meeting between two, meeting between two, meeting between two, and 1389 03:35:08,880 --> 03:35:18,479 then meeting with one. And we took the individual's judgment on that and said, 1390 03:35:15,439 --> 03:35:22,680 "Okay, decision made, but it's something that should be a decision in an open 1391 03:35:20,479 --> 03:35:29,279 session." that it may not violate the law, but it 1392 03:35:26,080 --> 03:35:35,279 is certainly not transparent and it is certainly probably not good. Well, 1393 03:35:32,479 --> 03:35:38,319 something and if it's a decision made technically, it's probably not their 1394 03:35:36,880 --> 03:35:45,680 decision because you didn't make it before then. Well, but you can see the 1395 03:35:41,439 --> 03:35:53,279 potential like if if I then signed an IG based on that direction, I could get in 1396 03:35:49,439 --> 03:35:57,319 trouble for that. Yeah. Well, yeah, I should get in trouble for that. 1397 03:35:58,920 --> 03:36:05,760 Um, so, so again, the real distinction is legislative and quaso judicial 1398 03:36:04,000 --> 03:36:11,399 because it's legislative, there's just very few rules at home other than don't 1399 03:36:08,040 --> 03:36:14,760 meet more than two at a time. And quazo judicial sort of the accident, don't 1400 03:36:13,520 --> 03:36:19,920 meet with anybody ever, don't talk about it at all. and 1401 03:36:17,920 --> 03:36:24,080 and if you do let somebody know so that at the public hearing you know that 1402 03:36:22,239 --> 03:36:28,840 communication can be disclosed so the other side can have fairness and 1403 03:36:26,200 --> 03:36:33,800 respond that's help okay thank you for 1404 03:36:31,920 --> 03:36:42,239 clarifying sure that that all I had okie dokie uh 1405 03:36:38,800 --> 03:36:47,239 any questions last questions that work session 1406 03:36:43,560 --> 03:36:52,600 comments then there will be a brief break and regular council meeting will 1407 03:36:50,479 --> 03:37:00,439 start at 7. Stacy, is dinner here yet? You know 1408 03:36:56,239 --> 03:37:00,439 what? I haven't seen I'll go check. 1409 03:42:19,760 --> 03:42:29,760 I'll be nice and [Laughter] 1410 03:42:27,000 --> 03:42:33,080 although you know it's flavored tobacco band tonight. 1411 03:42:35,120 --> 03:42:43,399 Okay, I'll I'll grab some more chairs. You think? Yeah. Yeah. We will have high 1412 03:42:40,160 --> 03:42:43,399 school students. 1413 03:42:45,200 --> 03:42:51,239 Florida or something. That's true. 1414 03:42:57,040 --> 03:43:01,160 Will be here. God bless. 1415 03:43:01,279 --> 03:43:07,200 Well, you know what? The high school students, they weren't even supposed to 1416 03:43:04,479 --> 03:43:10,200 be using it anyway, so they shouldn't be coming. 1417 03:43:18,000 --> 03:43:21,800 I got my child. 1418 03:43:24,399 --> 03:43:33,239 That's good news. to get away with it. That was Yeah, 1419 03:43:29,760 --> 03:43:33,239 that's not great. 1420 03:43:42,479 --> 03:43:50,720 95 miles hour and the next person goes by 65 and get pulled over to speed. 1421 03:43:48,720 --> 03:43:56,880 Wow. not muted. We could hear all of that 1422 03:43:52,960 --> 03:43:59,930 whole conversation about the smoking and [Music] 1423 03:44:01,640 --> 03:44:06,160 kids talking about kids coming 1424 03:44:06,439 --> 03:44:16,040 and we heard how they shouldn't be doing it. I just wanted No, we didn't talk 1425 03:44:11,920 --> 03:44:16,040 about how they shouldn't be doing it. 1426 03:44:22,399 --> 03:44:25,720 I don't want kids. 1427 03:44:26,230 --> 03:44:29,360 [Music] 1428 03:44:44,319 --> 03:44:52,560 We didn't say just that you should. That's weird because I definitely muted. 1429 03:44:49,600 --> 03:44:56,680 I must have missed when I clicked. We could just keep it easy. 1430 04:20:11,120 --> 04:20:18,080 Mr. Mayor, you're on mic and recording. Great. Thank you, Stacey. 1431 04:20:15,920 --> 04:20:23,359 Hello, everybody. It is just a little after 7 for April 22nd regular meeting 1432 04:20:20,800 --> 04:20:27,600 of the Frisco Town Council. We're going to call the meeting to order. And with 1433 04:20:24,640 --> 04:20:34,319 that, let's have a a roll call, please. here. Incan here. Ryan here. Goldstein 1434 04:20:31,680 --> 04:20:38,399 here. Gibby here. And script check. Adrien is absent and Hold is absent. 1435 04:20:37,040 --> 04:20:43,760 Great. Thank you, Stacy. With that, we'll move on to our 1436 04:20:41,359 --> 04:20:48,560 um public comments. And I want to thank folks for coming forward with any public 1437 04:20:46,000 --> 04:20:52,880 comments. And just with the note of public comments are reserved for items 1438 04:20:50,800 --> 04:20:57,600 that are not already on the meeting's agenda. If you plan to make a comment on 1439 04:20:55,359 --> 04:21:02,239 an item already appearing on the agenda, please wait until the item is announced 1440 04:20:59,680 --> 04:21:06,399 and public comment is requested at that time. State your name, address for the 1441 04:21:04,560 --> 04:21:10,319 record, be topic specific, and limit comments to three minutes or less. No 1442 04:21:08,800 --> 04:21:14,239 council action is taken on public comments and council at council 1443 04:21:12,319 --> 04:21:20,159 meetings. Council takes public comments under advisement. And if a council and 1444 04:21:17,520 --> 04:21:24,319 or staff response is deemed necessary or appropriate, the individual making the 1445 04:21:21,920 --> 04:21:28,319 comment will receive a formal response from the town at a later date. It is 1446 04:21:26,399 --> 04:21:33,680 recommended to sign in at the welcome table at each meeting if providing 1447 04:21:31,279 --> 04:21:38,080 in-person comment and include contact information for follow-up communication. 1448 04:21:36,319 --> 04:21:41,399 With that, do we have any public comment in chambers? 1449 04:21:41,520 --> 04:21:48,159 Do we have any public comment online? No, Mr. No public comment in chambers or 1450 04:21:46,080 --> 04:21:54,239 online. We'll close public comment and we'll move on to um any council or mayor 1451 04:21:55,720 --> 04:22:02,319 comments. Just want to again thank public works staff for dealing with the 1452 04:22:00,239 --> 04:22:06,640 snow that we had our late late season snowfall and that all that mitigation 1453 04:22:04,800 --> 04:22:10,080 went really well. And thank the police department for working through our 1454 04:22:07,920 --> 04:22:15,199 shoulder shoulder season. Now, as we all know, we can from time to time have an 1455 04:22:12,800 --> 04:22:19,000 uptick in um some bad actors in the community on their way out of town. So, 1456 04:22:16,720 --> 04:22:24,279 thank the police department for you. With that, I'll close council and 1457 04:22:22,399 --> 04:22:30,560 mayor comments and move on to staff updates updates today, mayor. Great. 1458 04:22:27,359 --> 04:22:35,359 Thank you, Tom. Um we are flying people. Um 1459 04:22:32,080 --> 04:22:43,359 with uh with no staff updates tonight, um we'll move on to our consent agenda. 1460 04:22:39,600 --> 04:22:48,479 Any discussion or perhaps a motion? Mr. Mayor, I make a motion to approve 1461 04:22:44,960 --> 04:22:52,000 the consent agenda. We have a motion to approve the consent 1462 04:22:50,399 --> 04:23:01,199 agenda and a second. Please call the question. Adrien is absent. Ryan, 1463 04:22:56,319 --> 04:23:06,399 yes. Yes. Goldstein, yes. Allan, yes. Elders absent, and Incan, yes. 1464 04:23:05,120 --> 04:23:10,159 Great. Thank you, Stacy. With that, we'll move on to our first order agenda 1465 04:23:08,159 --> 04:23:16,000 item number one this evening. It's first reading of ordinance 1466 04:23:11,800 --> 04:23:21,439 25-07 an ordinance amending article six of chapter 110 of the code of ordinances 1467 04:23:19,040 --> 04:23:25,760 of the town of Frisco concerning tobacco product retail licensing and sale 1468 04:23:24,080 --> 04:23:31,680 regulations to prohibit the sale of flavored tobacco products and the sales 1469 04:23:28,399 --> 04:23:36,479 by dis sales by discontinuing of any tobacco products in order to safeguard 1470 04:23:34,399 --> 04:23:40,319 the public health particularly in the the health of 1471 04:23:37,960 --> 04:23:43,600 minors and I'll now turn it over to staff and that it's going to be Stacy 1472 04:23:42,080 --> 04:23:50,800 and Thad and Tom may have some information to add. She moved 1473 04:23:48,239 --> 04:23:54,159 team here. Um thank you mayor and council. Stacy now town clerk for the 1474 04:23:52,640 --> 04:23:58,880 record. Um the reason that you're hearing from me this evening on this one 1475 04:23:56,479 --> 04:24:04,080 is um because I oversee our licensing program for these retailers. Um just 1476 04:24:01,439 --> 04:24:07,920 wanted to briefly give um a shout out and thank you to Lindsay Joyce who 1477 04:24:05,600 --> 04:24:11,120 couldn't be here this evening but um she is our recreation and events director of 1478 04:24:09,600 --> 04:24:16,399 course but she helped me put together that uh nice staff report for your 1479 04:24:12,720 --> 04:24:21,920 packet. Um she also sits on the youth uh use tobacco use prevention uh work group 1480 04:24:19,279 --> 04:24:27,120 as well in the county. Um so really appreciate her participation in that. Um 1481 04:24:25,359 --> 04:24:32,399 so tonight you have the first reading of this ordinance. Um, you know, just to 1482 04:24:30,159 --> 04:24:37,520 remind all of you, as you're all aware, um, we actually skipped the item. I 1483 04:24:34,640 --> 04:24:40,720 don't the ET water service. I was just going to come back to the water service 1484 04:24:38,720 --> 04:24:44,720 agreement because that's been agendaized as number one. Totally right. And I 1485 04:24:43,199 --> 04:24:51,040 didn't even think I was just hungry for the spotlight, I guess. Yes. Let's 1486 04:24:47,840 --> 04:24:56,319 actually go with the agenda. Okay. To be continued. To be continued. Thank you, 1487 04:24:52,640 --> 04:25:01,159 Stacy. Yes. I I was comparing and I'm thank you for being flexible. Oh, thank 1488 04:24:58,479 --> 04:25:04,960 you for keeping us on point. Come on down. And with that, let me just 1489 04:25:03,120 --> 04:25:08,239 formalize our agenda item number one tonight, which is consideration of an 1490 04:25:06,399 --> 04:25:16,479 application for extratorial water services agreement for 0173 Summit 1491 04:25:12,319 --> 04:25:20,640 County Road uh 1041. And with that, we have Chris McInness, a public works 1492 04:25:17,920 --> 04:25:25,439 director and town engineer. Thanks. You may town council. Um yeah, we have 1493 04:25:23,520 --> 04:25:29,120 before you a application for extr territorial water in Frisco. Just to 1494 04:25:27,680 --> 04:25:34,880 give a little background since I think this is the first one we've had for a 1495 04:25:31,199 --> 04:25:39,840 couple of the members here. Um in 2023, the town passed an ordinance for extr 1496 04:25:36,720 --> 04:25:44,880 territorial uh water. This was a process to formalize um the requirements and the 1497 04:25:42,000 --> 04:25:49,120 process to serve water to people outside of the town of Frisco boundaries. Um 1498 04:25:47,520 --> 04:25:53,199 just kind of a high level overview of a few of the requirements. The main ones 1499 04:25:50,800 --> 04:25:58,239 is that anyone uh who will be served with extr territorial water uh has to be 1500 04:25:55,600 --> 04:26:02,159 connected to Frisco sanitation sewer. They have to uh pay and construct for 1501 04:26:00,319 --> 04:26:05,760 any improvements to the water system in order to be served by the water and they 1502 04:26:04,080 --> 04:26:09,760 either have to bring water rights to the town of Frisco or they have to pay an 1503 04:26:07,439 --> 04:26:14,640 inloo fee which then um assists the town for acquiring uh additional water rights 1504 04:26:12,159 --> 04:26:21,920 in the future. Um so before you we have an application for 0173 County Road 1041 1505 04:26:19,279 --> 04:26:27,600 and this property uh we have existing water infrastructure in County Road 1041 1506 04:26:24,399 --> 04:26:33,920 there. They are proposing uh to pay the inloo fee um in place of dedicating 1507 04:26:30,720 --> 04:26:39,600 water rights. Um and with this we recommend approval of the application 1508 04:26:36,800 --> 04:26:43,439 for extr territorial water uh based on the existing infrastructure in place to 1509 04:26:41,439 --> 04:26:48,080 serve them. they meet the requirements of the town code in the application and 1510 04:26:46,159 --> 04:26:53,040 the town staff has determined it would not cause detrimental impacts to the 1511 04:26:50,000 --> 04:26:56,680 town water system. And I'm here for any questions on this application. 1512 04:26:56,800 --> 04:27:04,560 Is that one house or they would be paying the uh the inloo 1513 04:27:02,159 --> 04:27:09,600 fee for one single family equivalent on the water rights? 1514 04:27:07,439 --> 04:27:15,680 Chris, can you just refresh my memory? What neighborhood is that in? So that is 1515 04:27:12,479 --> 04:27:20,239 um so it's unincorporated county and uh opposite of school road um off of 1516 04:27:17,600 --> 04:27:23,840 Highway 9. Um it's off of in there. So Frisco Heights if you will. Yeah. Just 1517 04:27:22,479 --> 04:27:29,159 so everyone has a reference of where we're talking. Yep. Cool. Any other 1518 04:27:26,800 --> 04:27:35,520 questions for Chris and the the fee and Lou Chris is 1519 04:27:32,159 --> 04:27:38,720 commensurate with our formula to for such a factor that we went through the 1520 04:27:37,680 --> 04:27:42,720 process. a a calculator and formula was developed 1521 04:27:40,640 --> 04:27:46,960 um when we passed the ordinance in 2023 and and then it yeah bases it off that 1522 04:27:44,800 --> 04:27:52,800 based on the uh the usage um for an equivalent amount of water rights. 1523 04:27:48,640 --> 04:27:56,640 Gotcha. Cool. Thank you. And a little more background for the folks. The 1524 04:27:54,800 --> 04:28:01,279 neighborhood of Frisco Heights is unique because we do have water infrastructure 1525 04:27:58,720 --> 04:28:05,760 running through there um in some places and this is another opportunity for 1526 04:28:03,439 --> 04:28:10,560 residents in that neighborhood to tap into our system. I I don't know the the 1527 04:28:08,120 --> 04:28:13,279 the totality of the infrastructure that's there, but it's a discussion 1528 04:28:11,840 --> 04:28:19,319 that's come up quite a bit in the past that we do have uh water manes already 1529 04:28:16,080 --> 04:28:25,279 in place and it's per the application the occupancy is already on the Frisco 1530 04:28:22,760 --> 04:28:31,120 sanitation system as well. Correct. Yeah. Okay, cool. Further questions with 1531 04:28:29,840 --> 04:28:34,080 that. We'll open it up to public comments right now. Chris, thanks. Just 1532 04:28:32,800 --> 04:28:38,920 give us a moment. If anyone would like to make a comment, please come forward 1533 04:28:35,600 --> 04:28:38,920 to the podium. 1534 04:28:46,239 --> 04:28:57,000 My name is Sharon I reside at 173 Fris uh County Road 1535 04:28:52,760 --> 04:29:03,920 1041. Um we've enjoyed the Summit County life for over 25 years starting 1536 04:29:01,279 --> 04:29:10,840 in 2001. 2008, we bought the 173 property knowing 1537 04:29:07,920 --> 04:29:16,159 that we had was already a 40-year-old structure and a 40-year-old well. Well, 1538 04:29:14,080 --> 04:29:22,560 now we're um almost 15 years 1539 04:29:19,159 --> 04:29:28,960 later. So, all I want is to be able to take a shower and not worry about 1540 04:29:26,720 --> 04:29:34,319 um running out of water. our grandson called to say, "Grandma, grandma, we 1541 04:29:30,800 --> 04:29:39,439 don't have any water." So, we've contact various 1542 04:29:36,880 --> 04:29:44,159 um well companies and things like that and they noticed we had a line running 1543 04:29:41,760 --> 04:29:50,080 in front of the home. So, they suggested that we apply to hook up to city water. 1544 04:29:48,159 --> 04:29:55,239 Thank you. Great. Thank you for your comment. 1545 04:29:52,159 --> 04:29:59,040 Bring it. Any other public comment online? No other public comment. I will 1546 04:29:57,760 --> 04:30:03,920 close public comment. We'll bring it back to council for any 1547 04:30:01,239 --> 04:30:10,239 clarifications. And just as another note, in in recent past, we've had other 1548 04:30:07,520 --> 04:30:14,920 neighborhoods that were on wells within Summit County, not not here in Frisco, 1549 04:30:12,640 --> 04:30:21,120 and their wells um for for they went dry is is what what 1550 04:30:18,640 --> 04:30:25,840 had happened in other communities. And as we continue over the next several 1551 04:30:23,920 --> 04:30:28,720 years, I would anticipate more and more folks, if we haven't had that 1552 04:30:27,279 --> 04:30:36,479 conversation yet, wanting to come into our system. Um, so this is just a a 1553 04:30:32,960 --> 04:30:41,880 natural progression of folks that are going from well into the city side of it 1554 04:30:39,199 --> 04:30:46,960 for the supply, for the consistency, and the sustainability of it, for their 1555 04:30:44,800 --> 04:30:52,439 habitation. So, thank you for that. And just a little background for everybody. 1556 04:30:49,279 --> 04:30:56,960 Any other comments, questions, or a motion? And just to be clear, we're 1557 04:30:55,040 --> 04:31:03,520 approve the what we're what we're voting on in what we're voting on is allowing 1558 04:31:01,359 --> 04:31:09,520 the occupant and the resident and the owner to pay for their residents to tap 1559 04:31:07,600 --> 04:31:14,239 into our infrastructure to come online with Frisco. and they're going to pay 1560 04:31:12,159 --> 04:31:17,720 instead of bringing water rights forward to us for a trade-off, they're just 1561 04:31:16,000 --> 04:31:24,159 going to pay the cash in loop. Just so we're all clear. 1562 04:31:22,080 --> 04:31:28,560 Mr. Mayor, I make a motion to approve the application for extra territorial 1563 04:31:26,080 --> 04:31:33,600 water service for 0173 Summit County Road 1040. 1564 04:31:30,960 --> 04:31:39,359 Second. Great. We have a motion and a second uh to approve agenda item number 1565 04:31:36,159 --> 04:31:45,359 one. Please call the question. Yes. Check. Adrienne is absent. Ryan, yes. 1566 04:31:41,920 --> 04:31:49,920 Kibby, yes. Goldstein, yes. Allan, yes. And Held is absent. Great. Thank you, 1567 04:31:47,680 --> 04:31:54,000 Stacy. With that, we'll close that. And a motion has passed. So, thank you for 1568 04:31:51,840 --> 04:31:57,800 coming in. With that, we'll move on to the very anticipated agenda item number 1569 04:31:56,159 --> 04:32:02,760 two. um which will be I'll read for the 1570 04:32:00,399 --> 04:32:08,560 record is first reading of ordinance 25-07 an ordinance amending article six 1571 04:32:05,840 --> 04:32:13,159 of the chapter 110 of the code of ordinances of the town of Frisco 1572 04:32:10,159 --> 04:32:18,399 concerning tobacco product retail licensing and sales 1573 04:32:15,399 --> 04:32:25,520 regulations I'm not stopping to prohibit the sale of flavored tobacco products 1574 04:32:21,520 --> 04:32:30,399 and the sale and sale by discontinuing any of the tobacco products in order to 1575 04:32:28,960 --> 04:32:34,560 safeguard the public health, particularly the health of minors. And 1576 04:32:32,720 --> 04:32:42,159 with that, we're going to bring it on over to Stacy and Thad and Tom. 1577 04:32:38,399 --> 04:32:46,800 Yeah. Um, so I will not repeat anything in the interest of time, but um, just 1578 04:32:44,720 --> 04:32:50,479 starting up where I left off, um, you all actually directed staff to come back 1579 04:32:48,720 --> 04:32:54,560 with this ordinance. It was during your February 25th work session, and so 1580 04:32:52,720 --> 04:33:00,000 council members Ryan and Goldstein may not remember this. um unless you 1581 04:32:56,720 --> 04:33:04,160 attended that. But um from your strategic plan that you all adopted in 1582 04:33:02,399 --> 04:33:08,561 late 2024, um you all mention council's public 1583 04:33:06,320 --> 04:33:12,799 service commitment um assuring a thriving future for the town of Frisco. 1584 04:33:10,719 --> 04:33:17,279 And your vision statement calls out supporting opportunities for community 1585 04:33:14,561 --> 04:33:21,359 well-being. And so those are two uh ways in which this ordinance really fits in 1586 04:33:19,119 --> 04:33:25,760 with your strategic plan. I won't sit here and browbeat you all about um too 1587 04:33:24,000 --> 04:33:30,240 many of the data and statistics that are available in the interest of time with 1588 04:33:27,840 --> 04:33:34,160 regard to um you know youth prevention and basically how these products and 1589 04:33:32,240 --> 04:33:38,959 these companies are essentially target targeting youth um with these flavors 1590 04:33:36,480 --> 04:33:45,760 and products um they're really driving the use of these products um and masking 1591 04:33:41,520 --> 04:33:52,240 the detrimental and um adverse effects um to health with flavor names like that 1592 04:33:49,600 --> 04:33:59,039 reflect breakfast cereals and desserts and fruity candy flavors. Um, you know, 1593 04:33:56,160 --> 04:34:04,000 almost 90% of adult daily smokers started smoking by the age of 18. 1594 04:34:01,039 --> 04:34:09,760 Smoking related illnesses cost Colorado almost $2 billion per year. Um, it's 1595 04:34:06,879 --> 04:34:14,160 quoted at about $1.8 billion. Um, these companies are super creative 1596 04:34:12,561 --> 04:34:17,760 and they're just continuing to try to sell their addictive products and this 1597 04:34:15,600 --> 04:34:22,000 is one way that um, with our home rule authority, we can really exercise um, 1598 04:34:20,639 --> 04:34:26,639 you know, a ban on these types of products for our community. 1599 04:34:24,639 --> 04:34:31,119 um federal agencies, you know, you all have been presented with through County 1600 04:34:28,400 --> 04:34:34,320 Youth and Family Services, um from the National Institute of Health, US 1601 04:34:32,639 --> 04:34:40,400 Department of Health and Human Services, and the FDA, uh just with countless 1602 04:34:38,000 --> 04:34:45,600 instances and reasons why these products are just adverse to the health of our 1603 04:34:42,240 --> 04:34:50,160 community, um particularly our youth. And um an interesting statistic that I 1604 04:34:48,160 --> 04:34:53,680 got from Becky Peltier over at County Youth and Family Services is that 1605 04:34:52,080 --> 04:34:59,119 tobacco and nicotine products are available in over 1606 04:34:55,959 --> 04:35:04,000 15,500 flavors nationwide right now. That is staggering. It's not just 1607 04:35:01,520 --> 04:35:09,680 cherry, strawberry, watermelon. It's gummy bear, cotton candy, pink lemonade, 1608 04:35:07,359 --> 04:35:15,160 uh crunch berry, all of these different types of names. And it's just 1609 04:35:12,359 --> 04:35:20,320 pretty staggering, I guess. Um so staff, you know, we're 1610 04:35:18,240 --> 04:35:24,879 recommending tonight that you vote to approve this ordinance on first reading, 1611 04:35:22,879 --> 04:35:28,240 um particularly due to the strategic plan language, our partnership and 1612 04:35:26,799 --> 04:35:32,240 continuing relationship with county youth and family services, uh the 1613 04:35:30,561 --> 04:35:36,639 direction of this council to bring forth this ordinance um that will reflect 1614 04:35:34,400 --> 04:35:40,959 these code amendments in this ban. And I'll turn it over to Thaad just to touch 1615 04:35:38,600 --> 04:35:43,959 specifically on the ordinance before you tonight. 1616 04:35:44,561 --> 04:35:50,799 Um, some relatively simple changes to the ordinance. There's a proposal to 1617 04:35:49,279 --> 04:35:54,480 broaden out the statement of legislative intent to better reflect the flavor ban 1618 04:35:52,719 --> 04:35:59,959 rather than just a prohibition of of sales to people who are under 21. Um, it 1619 04:35:58,240 --> 04:36:05,359 adopts the definition of the term coupon. Um, the term flavored tobacco 1620 04:36:02,959 --> 04:36:10,561 product and the term full retail price to accomplish the flavor ban and then 1621 04:36:07,840 --> 04:36:15,199 the prohibition on discounting. those provisions, those definitions and the 1622 04:36:12,719 --> 04:36:19,039 provisions that prohibit um sale of flavored tobacco products and and and 1623 04:36:17,199 --> 04:36:25,520 sale of any tobacco products through discounting methods is the language that 1624 04:36:22,600 --> 04:36:33,320 was proposed by the coalition that that visited us recently and is the language 1625 04:36:29,199 --> 04:36:37,439 um that is consistent with Dylan and Silverthorn's code adoption. I am 1626 04:36:36,160 --> 04:36:43,119 looking for a little direction. At the time I wrote the ordinance, I was not 1627 04:36:39,600 --> 04:36:47,439 aware uh as to whether a certain date had been chosen by the various 1628 04:36:45,359 --> 04:36:54,160 jurisdictions on which this prohibition should start. Um my understanding now is 1629 04:36:50,799 --> 04:37:00,080 that um that that desired date is January 1st of 2026. I left a blank in 1630 04:36:57,119 --> 04:37:05,439 there for 2025. Um obviously that time period will give um the town and the 1631 04:37:03,520 --> 04:37:09,600 other towns in the county some time to educate their retailers about the 1632 04:37:07,119 --> 04:37:16,400 upcoming prohibition and then some time to um rid themselves of stock in in 1633 04:37:13,039 --> 04:37:20,000 hand. Um with that I'm happy to answer any questions you might have on the 1634 04:37:17,600 --> 04:37:24,240 ordinance. I have a question maybe for you and maybe Stacy and this is not 1635 04:37:21,760 --> 04:37:30,920 really in relation to my position on this topic but for my own education. You 1636 04:37:26,879 --> 04:37:36,799 mentioned uh prohibition on flavors specifically. What would happen under 1637 04:37:34,080 --> 04:37:39,799 home rule if we wanted to ban flavored vodka? 1638 04:37:40,000 --> 04:37:48,400 We don't have a specific statutory authorization to do so. So you're really 1639 04:37:46,000 --> 04:37:51,520 not dealing with in in adopting this provision. And I know that Stacy has 1640 04:37:50,160 --> 04:37:56,080 said it's your home world authority, but in this instance, we don't need our home 1641 04:37:53,439 --> 04:38:01,279 authority because the the state through its legislative process adopted 1642 04:37:58,799 --> 04:38:05,680 provisions years ago said, "Hey, municipalities, if you want to regulate 1643 04:38:02,959 --> 04:38:10,000 in this area, you can." Right? So, so that's a very good question. I don't 1644 04:38:07,760 --> 04:38:14,000 know the answer. I wouldn't be terribly comfortable with it without a statutory 1645 04:38:12,160 --> 04:38:17,920 authorization, which we have for the cigarettes. We don't have Thank you for 1646 04:38:16,480 --> 04:38:22,320 that. Yep. And it's not just cigarettes, it's 1647 04:38:19,840 --> 04:38:27,799 nicotine products. Correct. I'm sorry. It's not just cigarettes. It's nicotine. 1648 04:38:24,879 --> 04:38:32,480 I Yeah, that includes vapes that, you know, tobacco product is very broadly 1649 04:38:30,320 --> 04:38:37,279 defined. Cigarettes, vapes, any any other device that can deliver nicotine 1650 04:38:34,561 --> 04:38:43,160 into your bloodstream. Right. Thanks. That y any other questions from the 1651 04:38:40,160 --> 04:38:43,160 team? 1652 04:38:45,920 --> 04:38:50,760 I should have mentioned just as part of your motion if someone will recite 1653 04:38:48,879 --> 04:38:55,799 January 1, 2026 be helpful. Your second reading 1654 04:38:55,840 --> 04:39:01,760 just when your deliberation comes up, I want to make sure that I I represent 1655 04:39:00,160 --> 04:39:07,160 something that I received from a council member. Got it. I'll get there after 1656 04:39:03,920 --> 04:39:13,119 public comments. So, with that, we'll uh move on to any public comments on 1657 04:39:10,879 --> 04:39:18,561 this item this evening. And with that, I'll open it up to the council chambers. 1658 04:39:16,160 --> 04:39:22,119 If anyone in chambers has a comment, please come on up. 1659 04:39:30,400 --> 04:39:38,520 Good evening. My name is Esau Hernandez. I'm from the Youth Empowerment Society 1660 04:39:35,760 --> 04:39:44,878 of Summit or YES and I'm here to speak in favor of 1661 04:39:41,600 --> 04:39:50,840 banning all flavored nicotine products. We need to protect our classmates and 1662 04:39:47,360 --> 04:39:57,280 younger kids from getting addicted to nicotine. And I am Yiel Gomez and I am 1663 04:39:54,400 --> 04:40:01,040 also from Yes, I completely agree. Flavored products are designed to 1664 04:39:58,878 --> 04:40:05,958 attract teens like us and it's working. We've seen too many of our peers get 1665 04:40:02,638 --> 04:40:12,600 addicted and it needs to stop. Livered products are a huge reason why 1666 04:40:08,718 --> 04:40:19,760 teens start using nicotine. 93.2% of youth ages 12 to 17 who have 1667 04:40:17,760 --> 04:40:25,520 ever used the ecigarette reported their first product was flavored like candy 1668 04:40:22,798 --> 04:40:32,080 and fruit flavors. And I have personally seen this myself as a high school 1669 04:40:28,480 --> 04:40:37,520 student. This is a tobacco industry directly targeting 1670 04:40:33,798 --> 04:40:42,000 us. In a memo from RJ Reynolds, they said, "Make a cigarette which is 1671 04:40:39,520 --> 04:40:47,760 obviously youth oriented. This could involve cigarette names, blends, 1672 04:40:45,120 --> 04:40:53,200 flavors, and marketing techniques. For example, a flavor which could be 1673 04:40:49,798 --> 04:40:56,718 candyike but give the satisfaction of a cigarette. 1674 04:40:54,798 --> 04:41:00,840 We have seen some of our friends who have been curious about the different 1675 04:40:58,400 --> 04:41:05,920 flavors of vapes and other nicotine products and from there their their 1676 04:41:03,360 --> 04:41:11,120 addiction journey has started. And even though there are federal laws in place, 1677 04:41:08,320 --> 04:41:15,878 local tobacco retailers find ways around them with no other way to ensure 1678 04:41:14,160 --> 04:41:21,040 compliance at the local level. If flavors weren't available at 1679 04:41:18,798 --> 04:41:26,480 all, fewer students would even think about trying them. Not to mention the 1680 04:41:24,160 --> 04:41:31,520 long-term health risk. According to the CDC website, they state that nicotine 1681 04:41:29,440 --> 04:41:36,240 can harm brain development, which doesn't stop growing till about the age 1682 04:41:33,280 --> 04:41:41,440 of 25. They also state that it can harm the parts of the brain that control 1683 04:41:38,040 --> 04:41:45,160 attention, learning, mood, and impulse control. And we can't afford to let that 1684 04:41:43,920 --> 04:41:49,440 happen to our generation. This isn't just about 1685 04:41:47,440 --> 04:41:56,080 personal choices. It's about public health in our c in our county. Towns 1686 04:41:53,200 --> 04:42:00,320 have a responsibility to protect young people from a lifetime addiction. Most 1687 04:41:58,400 --> 04:42:06,718 kids in high school are already developing this lifetime addiction. 1688 04:42:03,280 --> 04:42:11,440 This is an in the 2023 Healthy Kids Colorado survey reported that among 1689 04:42:08,798 --> 04:42:16,400 those underage Summit high school students who have tried to buy tobacco 1690 04:42:13,280 --> 04:42:21,958 or vaping products in a store. The percentage who were not refused because 1691 04:42:19,360 --> 04:42:28,000 of age was 81%. We believe protecting kids is the 1692 04:42:24,878 --> 04:42:33,120 most important. This ban is a necessary step. Over 400 Summit middle school and 1693 04:42:31,840 --> 04:42:39,440 high school students filled out postcards in support of this ban. We 1694 04:42:36,160 --> 04:42:45,120 brought 40 of of them with us today. We urge the town of Frisco to take action 1695 04:42:42,400 --> 04:42:49,920 now. Let's make Summit County a continued leader in protecting the youth 1696 04:42:46,958 --> 04:42:53,080 from nicotine addiction. Thank you. Thank you. 1697 04:42:54,560 --> 04:42:59,080 Any other public comments in the chambers? 1698 04:43:04,080 --> 04:43:08,958 Good evening, mayor and council members. I'm Eric Hador, Colorado government 1699 04:43:07,440 --> 04:43:13,040 relations director for the American Heart Association. I'm here today to 1700 04:43:11,360 --> 04:43:17,680 express the organization's support of the town's efforts to end the sale of 1701 04:43:15,360 --> 04:43:21,920 all flavored tobacco products and to thank you for the work that you're doing 1702 04:43:18,958 --> 04:43:26,160 on this. Uh tobacco and nicotine use are major risk factors for heart disease and 1703 04:43:23,920 --> 04:43:30,240 stroke. Tobacco use accounts for the death of 1704 04:43:27,240 --> 04:43:35,600 approximately 168,000 Americans each year from cardiovascular disease. And in 1705 04:43:32,878 --> 04:43:39,520 Colorado, tobacco kills over 5,000 people every year. You heard from the 1706 04:43:37,680 --> 04:43:43,440 students how detrimental these products are to their peers. But the problem 1707 04:43:41,600 --> 04:43:47,920 doesn't stop with youth. flavored tobacco products, particularly menthol 1708 04:43:45,520 --> 04:43:54,400 cigarettes, disproportionately harm communities of color, lowincome 1709 04:43:50,760 --> 04:43:58,638 populations, and LGBTQ plus individuals. These groups have been targeted for 1710 04:43:56,718 --> 04:44:03,280 decades through predatory marketing practices. And the results is higher 1711 04:44:00,878 --> 04:44:08,240 rates of tobacco related related illness and deaths in the communities. Despite 1712 04:44:05,760 --> 04:44:12,480 any claims, flavored vapes, nicotine pouches, and other smokeless products 1713 04:44:10,480 --> 04:44:18,000 are not FDA approved for smoking sessation and are not safe alternatives 1714 04:44:15,120 --> 04:44:23,120 to cigarettes. They deliver a far more highly addictive nicotine. They are 1715 04:44:20,240 --> 04:44:27,920 riddled with potential harmful chemicals and often adults will be dual users of 1716 04:44:25,600 --> 04:44:32,080 products. Um, again, I just want to thank you for your efforts on this and 1717 04:44:30,160 --> 04:44:36,120 uh ask that you move swiftly to end the sale of all flavored tobacco products. 1718 04:44:33,920 --> 04:44:41,000 Thank you. Thank you. Any other public comments? 1719 04:44:42,560 --> 04:44:47,920 Good evening, mayor. Um, council members. My name is Jody Ragi. I'm a 1720 04:44:46,480 --> 04:44:51,120 regional director with the campaign for tobaccof free kids. I've been with my 1721 04:44:49,520 --> 04:44:56,480 organization over 18 years, but I've been doing importantly local, state, and 1722 04:44:54,320 --> 04:45:00,560 federal tobacco control work for over 22 years. A lot of that work being here in 1723 04:44:58,240 --> 04:45:04,638 Colorado. So, really just wanted to be here tonight to say thank you. Um, thank 1724 04:45:03,200 --> 04:45:08,240 you for your important work to protect Frisco's kids, to listening to your 1725 04:45:06,160 --> 04:45:11,760 community, listening to your youth. Your work couldn't come at a more important 1726 04:45:10,240 --> 04:45:16,160 time. You've heard references to the FDA, to CDC, to the Office for Smoking 1727 04:45:14,718 --> 04:45:20,560 and Health, all those agencies, as you know, are being dismantled. Um, so your 1728 04:45:18,560 --> 04:45:25,120 work becomes even more critical. And that reference earlier to cigarettes 1729 04:45:22,240 --> 04:45:28,878 versus nicotine, there used to be state um obstacles in state statute that would 1730 04:45:27,200 --> 04:45:32,798 have limited your authority to do what you're considering here tonight. my 1731 04:45:30,878 --> 04:45:36,878 organization along with Eric Hador's American Heart Association, we worked to 1732 04:45:35,040 --> 04:45:40,878 make sure that our cities and counties have the authority that you need to do 1733 04:45:38,638 --> 04:45:44,798 this really important work. So, it's with real real pride to stand here 1734 04:45:42,638 --> 04:45:49,200 tonight to see you um and other communities around you doing the same 1735 04:45:46,798 --> 04:45:52,798 work and you join 400 communities from across the country. The one thing I'll 1736 04:45:51,280 --> 04:45:56,240 just say is that we all know the rates are coming down. We've been successful 1737 04:45:54,638 --> 04:45:59,600 since cities and counties have had the authority to do this work. And that's 1738 04:45:58,000 --> 04:46:03,280 why it makes it even more critical that we don't take our foot off the gas as we 1739 04:46:01,360 --> 04:46:06,400 see these rates go down. We know they're going down because places like Frisco 1740 04:46:05,040 --> 04:46:10,320 and other places around the state are passing really critical, important 1741 04:46:08,080 --> 04:46:14,080 policies to bring these rates down. And you may remember that Colorado used to 1742 04:46:12,160 --> 04:46:18,560 lead the nation in vaping use across the country. Pridefully, we no longer have 1743 04:46:16,638 --> 04:46:22,480 that headline because of the work that's being done. And we need to keep doing 1744 04:46:20,480 --> 04:46:25,360 that work because the tobacco industry continues to innovate. So you heard 1745 04:46:23,760 --> 04:46:29,360 about the flavored products, but what you may not see or hear are products. I 1746 04:46:27,520 --> 04:46:32,000 brought one just to show and tell. Um you can order these, but these are the 1747 04:46:30,718 --> 04:46:38,080 products are teachers are seeing in the schools. This functions as a ballpoint 1748 04:46:34,320 --> 04:46:41,600 pen, but it's also a vape pen. So when people say, "Why aren't parents doing 1749 04:46:39,520 --> 04:46:44,638 more? Why aren't teachers doing more?" I think arguably we can all look at these 1750 04:46:43,200 --> 04:46:49,680 products and say they have a certain intention. And it's really to be 1751 04:46:46,718 --> 04:46:54,320 concealed, discreet, and really easy to use by our kids. And so it's with these 1752 04:46:52,480 --> 04:46:58,240 policy changes that we protect the next generation. And we lead by example. And 1753 04:46:56,798 --> 04:47:02,160 you're doing exactly that. So I just wanted to say again, thank you for your 1754 04:47:00,000 --> 04:47:06,160 work here to protect your community for Frisco's kids and importantly for being 1755 04:47:04,160 --> 04:47:10,760 a compass because other communities will follow your lead. So thank you for what 1756 04:47:07,920 --> 04:47:16,280 you're doing here tonight. Great. Thank you. Any other public comment in 1757 04:47:13,280 --> 04:47:16,280 chambers? 1758 04:47:18,080 --> 04:47:24,958 None. Any online? No, Mr. Mayor. Thank you, Stacey. With that, we'll close 1759 04:47:23,040 --> 04:47:29,320 public comment and come back to council and staff for any further discussion. 1760 04:47:30,400 --> 04:47:39,120 Tom, you got some discussion? I'll just uh read what um uh council member script 1761 04:47:36,638 --> 04:47:43,760 checking wrote and wanted me to bring up. So, 1762 04:47:41,080 --> 04:47:48,320 um, word for word, the the flavored nicotine ban. I would just say that I'm 1763 04:47:46,400 --> 04:47:52,718 not a proponent of telling businesses what they cannot 1764 04:47:49,878 --> 04:47:57,520 sell. Is it possible to put this on next year's ballot as a mega tax? Question. 1765 04:47:55,680 --> 04:48:04,080 Perhaps nicotine funds wouldn't totally drop. I'm not sure if this is a good 1766 04:47:59,200 --> 04:48:11,718 idea or not. So, thank you for sharing. Any other discussion or comments on 1767 04:48:07,240 --> 04:48:11,718 councel or a motion? 1768 04:48:14,160 --> 04:48:25,280 What what did you wanted to add to the ordinance number and setting 1769 04:48:21,320 --> 04:48:29,798 um January 1st of 2026 as the effective date in section 3. 1770 04:48:27,600 --> 04:48:35,040 Mr. Mayor, I make an enthusiastic motion to approve the first 1771 04:48:32,798 --> 04:48:42,798 reading of 256 uh with an effective date of July uh 1772 04:48:39,200 --> 04:48:45,798 January 1, 202 January 20 January 1st, 2026. 1773 04:48:47,120 --> 04:48:55,480 Got it. For that, we have a motion that's been made for agenda item number 1774 04:48:52,480 --> 04:48:55,480 three, 1775 04:48:56,280 --> 04:49:05,200 two um with an effective date of January 1, 2026. Do we have a second? 1776 04:49:03,600 --> 04:49:11,200 Second. Great. We have a motion and a second. 1777 04:49:07,440 --> 04:49:17,360 Please call the question. Alan, yes. Eld is absent. Inken, yes. Scrap check. 1778 04:49:13,760 --> 04:49:21,480 Adrian is absent. Ryan, yes. KB. Yes. And Goldstein, yes. 1779 04:49:24,480 --> 04:49:31,440 Got it. And with that, this motion has passed. Thank you everyone for their 1780 04:49:29,120 --> 04:49:34,520 discussion this evening and comments. And with that, we'll move on to agenda 1781 04:49:33,040 --> 04:49:40,160 item number three, which is resolution 1782 04:49:37,480 --> 04:49:45,920 25-07, approving a grant agreement with the Colorado Housing and Finance 1783 04:49:43,240 --> 04:49:51,440 Authority for additional funding to support the purchase of 101 West Main 1784 04:49:48,798 --> 04:49:55,440 for the purpose of affordable housing. And with that, we're going to open it up 1785 04:49:53,440 --> 04:50:00,280 to staff, which I believe is going to be THAAD. 1786 04:49:57,440 --> 04:50:07,040 Sure. Um the title says it all again. Um, this 1787 04:50:04,320 --> 04:50:10,240 is a a grant agreement between the town and the Colorado Housing Finance 1788 04:50:08,718 --> 04:50:16,160 Authority. um under which the town would be would 1789 04:50:12,560 --> 04:50:21,200 receive um excuse me $5 million in grant funding with the understanding that that 1790 04:50:18,320 --> 04:50:27,440 $5 million would be used to purchase the property at 101 Main currently owned by 1791 04:50:24,280 --> 04:50:32,480 NHP and the same brush stroke essentially to give a long-term ground 1792 04:50:30,400 --> 04:50:37,120 lease back to NHP for that property for a nominal set. As we've discussed 1793 04:50:34,878 --> 04:50:45,000 previously, it's a way for the town to put $5 million into that project through 1794 04:50:40,878 --> 04:50:50,320 grant money from the state. Um, this is this is the first time you have read 1795 04:50:47,840 --> 04:50:56,000 this, but it is connected with the second reading of 251, which is the next 1796 04:50:54,320 --> 04:50:59,520 and so we'll come back around to that, but in the meantime, I'm happy to answer 1797 04:50:58,080 --> 04:51:05,440 any questions on the grant agreement itself. Cool. Thanks, Sad. Sure. Any 1798 04:51:02,638 --> 04:51:11,200 other staff comments? Any questions from council on this 1799 04:51:07,878 --> 04:51:16,000 topic? With that, we'll open it up to any public comments in 1800 04:51:13,878 --> 04:51:22,320 chambers. Seeing none, any public comment online? None there. I will close 1801 04:51:18,718 --> 04:51:29,000 public comment. And we'll come back to council comment, questions, and or a 1802 04:51:26,000 --> 04:51:29,000 motion. 1803 04:51:29,840 --> 04:51:37,920 A motion to approve resolution 25-7 approving grant agreement with 1804 04:51:35,120 --> 04:51:42,400 Colorado Housing and Finance Authority Chaffa for additional funding to support 1805 04:51:40,000 --> 04:51:46,360 the purchase of 101 West Main for the purpose of affordable housing. 1806 04:51:46,798 --> 04:51:53,360 A second. Yep. With that, we have a a motion to approve agenda item number 1807 04:51:51,360 --> 04:52:00,560 three. In a second, please call the question. Eld is absent. Inken, yes. 1808 04:51:56,958 --> 04:52:05,840 Repean is absent. Ryan, yes. Kibby, Goldstein, and Allan, yes. With that, 1809 04:52:04,000 --> 04:52:09,680 the motion has passed. One thing I would add is I'll ask Neil to check in with 1810 04:52:07,840 --> 04:52:15,120 the clerk before he leaves tonight, please. 1811 04:52:11,840 --> 04:52:20,280 Um, with that, let's move on to old business, which is going to be agenda 1812 04:52:16,480 --> 04:52:27,120 item number four, which is second reading of ordinance 25-01, an 1813 04:52:24,240 --> 04:52:30,200 ordinance authorizing a purchase, sale, and leaseback agreement between the town 1814 04:52:29,520 --> 04:52:38,600 of Frisco and NHPF West Main LLC for the 1815 04:52:35,600 --> 04:52:43,160 property located at 101 West Main for the purpose 1816 04:52:40,878 --> 04:52:47,840 purposes of affordable housing and development. And with that, we're going 1817 04:52:45,600 --> 04:52:54,400 to open that up to staff and I believe we're back to that again. I think you're 1818 04:52:50,160 --> 04:52:59,200 right, mayor. Um, prior grant agreement was how we get the 1819 04:52:56,560 --> 04:53:04,160 money and this agreement with NHP is what the town does with that money, that 1820 04:53:01,200 --> 04:53:09,120 $5 million. Council, this is a second reading. Um and and just the edification 1821 04:53:07,040 --> 04:53:12,958 of our new members. State statute requires approval by ordinance anytime 1822 04:53:11,120 --> 04:53:19,520 the town goes to sell a piece of real property or to authorize a lease of real 1823 04:53:16,480 --> 04:53:25,520 property as the landlord that uh is longer in term than one year. So in this 1824 04:53:22,958 --> 04:53:28,480 deal we are purchasing a property. So you wouldn't need the ordinance of that. 1825 04:53:26,798 --> 04:53:34,080 But then we're turning right around and we're leasing it out a long-term ground 1826 04:53:30,240 --> 04:53:38,958 lease for 75 years if my memory serves me. Um so that's the reason we're doing 1827 04:53:35,840 --> 04:53:45,280 this by ordinance. The this was approved on first reading by all members present 1828 04:53:41,520 --> 04:53:50,000 at that first reading. Um the it has changed the agreement itself has changed 1829 04:53:47,760 --> 04:53:57,040 since first reading in a couple of fairly minor respects. The first is to 1830 04:53:54,320 --> 04:54:03,120 uh it's been revised to set a deadline on NHP to resolve to Chaffa's 1831 04:54:00,360 --> 04:54:06,798 satisfaction concerns that Chaffa may have and does have with some of the 1832 04:54:04,560 --> 04:54:11,360 title issues on that property. So in other words, short way of saying that is 1833 04:54:09,680 --> 04:54:14,560 Chaffa is not going to give us our $5 million grant until they are satisfied 1834 04:54:13,200 --> 04:54:18,400 with the state of title on that property. And accordingly, this 1835 04:54:16,638 --> 04:54:21,680 agreement has been revised to say, "And we're not going to buy the property from 1836 04:54:19,840 --> 04:54:27,680 you with the $5 million until we get it from Chaffa, so you have to satisfy 1837 04:54:23,840 --> 04:54:34,240 CHF's concerns about title." Our grant commitment ends on July the 1838 04:54:30,920 --> 04:54:40,320 31st. Their obligation to resolve the title issues to Chaffa's satisfaction. 1839 04:54:37,280 --> 04:54:46,080 Um, that deadline is June the I'm sorry, July the 15th. What we don't want to 1840 04:54:43,120 --> 04:54:51,920 face is a situation where we have to go into Chapa after the deadline and say 1841 04:54:49,040 --> 04:54:57,040 gosh we just didn't get it done in time. So if so that's that's the significant 1842 04:54:54,718 --> 04:55:00,480 that's the substantive change um from the first version of the agreement. 1843 04:54:58,320 --> 04:55:04,560 There are also some changes to the ground lease that is an exhibit to this 1844 04:55:02,718 --> 04:55:09,680 purchase sale and lease back agreement. Those changes were made to make the 1845 04:55:07,120 --> 04:55:13,200 ground lease for 101 Maine more consistent with the ground lease that 1846 04:55:11,440 --> 04:55:16,878 had been negotiated and recently approved for 602 Galina. There were it's 1847 04:55:15,520 --> 04:55:20,120 primarily having to do with insurance requirements on the part of NHP. They 1848 04:55:18,718 --> 04:55:24,160 were fairly I guess what I would say 1849 04:55:22,200 --> 04:55:28,400 non-material changes to the lease agreement but there were some revisions 1850 04:55:25,760 --> 04:55:32,400 there as well. Um, with that, I'm happy to answer any questions, but as I say 1851 04:55:30,480 --> 04:55:36,160 that the idea is we buy the property from NHP and we turn right back around 1852 04:55:34,878 --> 04:55:40,718 and we lease it to them under a long-term remedies all at the same 1853 04:55:38,798 --> 04:55:47,360 table. Great. Thank you, Y. Any questions for 1854 04:55:43,638 --> 04:55:50,840 that? Any further staff comments? With that, let's open it up to public 1855 04:55:48,798 --> 04:55:55,600 comments. Any public comments in chamber? Not seeing any. We'll go to 1856 04:55:53,200 --> 04:55:59,440 public comments online. No public comment online. I will close 1857 04:55:58,160 --> 04:56:06,878 public public comment and we'll come back 1858 04:56:00,920 --> 04:56:06,878 to council for any further discussion or 1859 04:56:07,958 --> 04:56:13,810 motion. Mr. Mayor, I make a motion we [Music] 1860 04:56:14,040 --> 04:56:20,040 approve the second reading of ordinance 25-01. 1861 04:56:20,718 --> 04:56:28,520 Thank you. Great. We have a motion and a second to 1862 04:56:26,160 --> 04:56:32,638 approve our second reading um for our first item of bold business 1863 04:56:31,120 --> 04:56:39,040 this evening. And with that, please call the question. 1864 04:56:34,560 --> 04:56:44,120 Yes. Yes. Is absent. Incant. Yes. Prep check. Adrienne is absent. Ryan, yes. 1865 04:56:45,120 --> 04:56:48,680 Great. Stacy. 1866 04:56:49,360 --> 04:56:55,120 And with that, we're going to roll into our last agenda item this evening. 1867 04:56:53,520 --> 04:57:00,280 Agenda item number five is second reading of ordinance 25-06, an ordinance 1868 04:56:58,160 --> 04:57:04,600 amending chapter 180 of the code of ordinances of the town of Frisco 1869 04:57:02,480 --> 04:57:10,958 concerning zoning by amending the section 180-5.2.9 1870 04:57:08,200 --> 04:57:15,360 2.9 concerning licensing requirements and limitations for the retail marijuana 1871 04:57:13,160 --> 04:57:20,920 businesses in order to create consistency between the license renewal 1872 04:57:18,320 --> 04:57:27,280 fees for the town's processing of applications for renewal of retail and 1873 04:57:24,638 --> 04:57:30,718 medical marijuana facility licenses. And with that, we're going to turn it over 1874 04:57:28,400 --> 04:57:36,320 to stop, which is that one more time. I would have said 1875 04:57:32,760 --> 04:57:36,320 sl you point at 1876 04:57:37,798 --> 04:57:46,000 me second reading again um this ordinance was approved by all members 1877 04:57:42,958 --> 04:57:51,200 present uh on first reading it is a pretty simple change to our uh licensing 1878 04:57:49,360 --> 04:57:54,638 or code provisions concerning licensing of medical and retail marijuana 1879 04:57:52,560 --> 04:58:00,000 facilities as discussed at the last meeting. Our code currently provides a 1880 04:57:56,958 --> 04:58:04,560 $3,000 application fee for both a medical and retail initial license 1881 04:58:02,680 --> 04:58:10,480 application. But then when it comes to renewal of that application, the medical 1882 04:58:07,120 --> 04:58:15,040 fee drops to 1500 and the retail renewal fee stays at 3,000. For the reasons 1883 04:58:13,040 --> 04:58:19,440 discussed at the last meeting, both legal and practical or administrative 1884 04:58:17,760 --> 04:58:24,480 staff is recommending that those two be brought in line so that for each type of 1885 04:58:21,638 --> 04:58:28,718 application or each type of license, the initial application is 3,000. We know it 1886 04:58:26,798 --> 04:58:32,600 was 1500. With that, I'm happy to answer any questions. 1887 04:58:30,638 --> 04:58:36,638 Any questions for Thaad? Great. No further questions for 1888 04:58:35,040 --> 04:58:42,320 THAAD. Thank you, Thad. With that, we'll open up the public comments. I seeing 1889 04:58:38,878 --> 04:58:46,958 none in chambers. Any online? none on land line. We'll close public 1890 04:58:44,400 --> 04:58:53,600 comments and come back to council for any further discussion or a motion. 1891 04:58:51,600 --> 04:58:57,878 Mr. Mayor, I make a motion to approve the second reading of ordinance 25-06. 1892 04:59:02,160 --> 04:59:06,920 Second. Thank you, Zach. 1893 04:59:07,320 --> 04:59:16,760 Um, he's fall asleep. With that, Stacy, we have a motion in a 1894 04:59:13,920 --> 04:59:23,120 second for second reading of ordinance 25-06. Please call the question. Yes. 1895 04:59:20,080 --> 04:59:29,120 Goldstein, yes. Allan, yes. Held is absent. Inken, yes. Scrub Check. Adrien 1896 04:59:25,760 --> 04:59:32,760 is absent. Ryan, yes. Great. Thank you, Stacy. 1897 04:59:34,958 --> 04:59:41,560 With that, this is really the last item of this evening. So, with that, we're 1898 04:59:38,400 --> 04:59:41,560 going to 1899 04:59:42,160 --> 04:59:48,000 want to say the wrong word. Is it a jour? Yeah, we're going to counsel. 1900 04:59:46,320 --> 04:59:51,680 Okay. We're going to adjourn a regular council meeting. I wanted to say pause 1901 04:59:49,520 --> 04:59:57,760 or whatever. Um, and we're going to move into a 1902 04:59:53,798 --> 05:00:01,440 uh I'm going to say it wrong. The Frisco Housing Authority 1903 04:59:59,680 --> 05:00:06,400 um meeting and we're going to start that. And with that, we've done this, I 1904 05:00:04,958 --> 05:00:11,040 think, once before with this group. So, we're going to call another roll call. 1905 05:00:08,878 --> 05:00:15,760 Do we need to formally adjurnn, please? Motion and second to He takes a motion, 1906 05:00:13,840 --> 05:00:20,798 then he just adjourns. Mr. Mayor, I think 1907 05:00:17,840 --> 05:00:25,040 motion to adjurnn or adjourn. Next meeting. 1908 05:00:22,400 --> 05:00:30,080 Unanimous vote to adjurnn. Yes. Got it. Thank you. 1909 05:00:27,000 --> 05:00:38,080 Um, yes. We'll call for the Frisco Community Housing Development Authority. 1910 05:00:31,920 --> 05:00:43,360 Allan, yes, here. Inken, yes. Ryan, here. Thank you. Goldstein here. Here. 1911 05:00:41,840 --> 05:00:47,600 And just for the record, Script Tech Adrian is absent and Held is also 1912 05:00:45,440 --> 05:00:51,840 absent. Great. 1913 05:00:50,160 --> 05:00:56,718 And with that, thank you, Stacy. We're going to open up the floor to public 1914 05:00:53,600 --> 05:01:00,958 comment. Public comments re reserved for this item not already on the meeting 1915 05:00:58,240 --> 05:01:05,680 agenda and follow the same policy and procedure for town council 1916 05:01:03,400 --> 05:01:09,560 meetings. Do we have any public comment on this item this evening? Seeing none 1917 05:01:07,920 --> 05:01:15,120 in chambers, any online? None online. We'll keep moving 1918 05:01:12,080 --> 05:01:22,920 forward. We'll close public comment. And do we have any further uh mayor or 1919 05:01:19,520 --> 05:01:22,920 council comments? 1920 05:01:24,400 --> 05:01:29,480 or commission or yeah commission. 1921 05:01:29,638 --> 05:01:36,440 Um and with that with no comments that we don't have any uh additions or 1922 05:01:34,718 --> 05:01:39,440 agendas to the 1923 05:01:39,718 --> 05:01:45,840 ordinance and with that you're just approving minutes from the previous 1924 05:01:44,240 --> 05:01:50,160 meeting on consent. Approve the minutes from the cons. Yeah, it is a consent 1925 05:01:47,920 --> 05:01:54,400 agenda. So with that, our first item, just to follow the same order, I'm just 1926 05:01:52,718 --> 05:01:58,560 organizing my thoughts out loud to everybody, is we're going to approve the 1927 05:01:56,560 --> 05:02:02,718 consent agenda should there be no opposition. So with that, I would 1928 05:02:00,798 --> 05:02:07,200 entertain a motion of discussion about the consent agenda, which is the meeting 1929 05:02:04,718 --> 05:02:09,920 minutes from our last meeting, or take a motion to approve 1930 05:02:12,200 --> 05:02:18,840 them. Make a motion to approve the uh consent agenda. 1931 05:02:19,760 --> 05:02:27,440 Second. Great. We have a motion to approve the consent agenda and a second. 1932 05:02:24,480 --> 05:02:33,200 Please call the question. Goldstein, yes. Allan, yes. 1933 05:02:31,200 --> 05:02:39,760 Incan, yes. Scrub Check. Adrian is absent. Ryan, yes. And Kibby, yes. 1934 05:02:36,400 --> 05:02:43,920 Great. Thanks everybody. Um, with that, we'll move on to our first order of new 1935 05:02:41,680 --> 05:02:49,680 business, which is agenda item number one, resolution. 1936 05:02:46,878 --> 05:02:49,680 Wow. 1937 05:02:50,360 --> 05:02:58,718 FCHDA25-03 approving a second amended and restated development agreement 1938 05:02:56,718 --> 05:03:05,040 between the town of Frisco and the Frisco Community Housing Development 1939 05:03:00,520 --> 05:03:11,280 Authority, the NHP Foundation, and NHPF West Main LLC as amended and restatement 1940 05:03:09,360 --> 05:03:18,240 of the development agreement between the town of Frisco and the NHP Foundation 1941 05:03:14,240 --> 05:03:23,680 dated as of April 8th, 2025 as related to the affordable housing development to 1942 05:03:20,560 --> 05:03:26,798 be constructed at 602 Galina Street. There was an error in that title in the 1943 05:03:25,280 --> 05:03:32,080 reference to 101 main in the first instance. It's all that should also be a 1944 05:03:30,160 --> 05:03:36,160 reference to 602 Galina as was the last one. So, it's just a typographic error 1945 05:03:34,560 --> 05:03:38,878 in that title. This is all about 602 Galina, nothing 1946 05:03:39,160 --> 05:03:46,718 else. Got it. Super. We will. So with that everybody 1947 05:03:44,878 --> 05:03:53,440 if we can when we make a motion we'll just reread it insert 602 wherever 101 1948 05:03:50,240 --> 05:04:00,040 may appear um and it's not the worst one to read. Um so with that we'll bring it 1949 05:03:55,760 --> 05:04:06,240 back to for staff discussion. Sure. This is the identical agreement. Nothing has 1950 05:04:03,680 --> 05:04:11,360 changed from the form of this agreement that was approved by two readings of a 1951 05:04:08,878 --> 05:04:14,280 council ordinance. Right. This is a 602 Galina agreement that you approved on 1952 05:04:13,440 --> 05:04:20,400 second reading at the very last council meeting 1953 05:04:16,798 --> 05:04:24,320 with my members serves me. Um you'll you'll re you'll recall the the 1954 05:04:22,638 --> 05:04:30,160 substantive change between first reading and second reading was the filling of an 1955 05:04:26,080 --> 05:04:35,040 $8 million gap. Um this the agreement now comes before the housing authority 1956 05:04:32,718 --> 05:04:41,040 for approval. And the reason that the housing authority is being asked to be a 1957 05:04:37,680 --> 05:04:45,840 party to this agreement is that um by doing so it opens up the opportunity for 1958 05:04:43,360 --> 05:04:51,760 the housing authority to become a very small percentage owner in the you know 1959 05:04:49,680 --> 05:04:59,760 limited liability company that gets set up to develop this property. And by way 1960 05:04:56,080 --> 05:05:05,200 of that minor amount of ownership, the housing authority can then grant a a tax 1961 05:05:03,040 --> 05:05:10,080 exemption. It can be a tax exempt project. So So basically by the 1962 05:05:07,600 --> 05:05:14,120 authorities's participation, a tax exemption can be achieved to the project 1963 05:05:12,240 --> 05:05:18,160 that wouldn't exist otherwise. Having said that, all of the 1964 05:05:16,638 --> 05:05:25,360 language is identical to what was previously approved. Um, I know that NHP 1965 05:05:22,240 --> 05:05:31,120 has since proposed a change, a substantive change to the terms of the 1966 05:05:28,240 --> 05:05:36,760 unconditional guarantee that is a part of the loan agreement that is following 1967 05:05:33,920 --> 05:05:43,120 this document. Um, I'm going to let 1968 05:05:39,320 --> 05:05:46,760 NHP explain the nature of the request. Happy to take any questions on it. 1969 05:05:45,360 --> 05:05:52,760 Presuming that you as the housing authority decide 1970 05:05:49,600 --> 05:05:56,798 to approve this agreement with this amendment, the amendment will have to 1971 05:05:54,798 --> 05:06:00,798 come back before council again for two readings of an ordinance because it is a 1972 05:05:58,560 --> 05:06:03,718 material change to the deal that was already approved that has to be approved 1973 05:06:02,080 --> 05:06:09,040 by ordinance we discussed. With that, I'm going to turn 1974 05:06:05,760 --> 05:06:14,560 it over to Tom or NHP if they'd like to address the change proposed and then we 1975 05:06:11,600 --> 05:06:21,520 can come back. as part of public comment on the item or 1976 05:06:18,160 --> 05:06:26,560 just invite NHP up to right talk about their 1977 05:06:23,360 --> 05:06:31,360 proposed change. You got it. With that, Neil, can you give us a details? I was 1978 05:06:30,160 --> 05:06:35,360 going to say summary, but we probably need to know a little bit more than that 1979 05:06:32,560 --> 05:06:35,360 on the proposed 1980 05:06:35,400 --> 05:06:44,000 change. Proposed change is from a repayment guarantee to a construction 1981 05:06:41,680 --> 05:06:49,760 completion guarantee. which is what we've essentially been 1982 05:06:46,638 --> 05:06:59,280 offering uh from from the get-go. And and the reason why this is important is 1983 05:06:52,958 --> 05:07:05,360 in many ways this is a a a deal that is not just on Frisco's radar screen, but 1984 05:07:02,400 --> 05:07:05,360 is on the national 1985 05:07:06,600 --> 05:07:18,080 radar screen. uh as one of, if not the first 501c3 new construction 1986 05:07:14,400 --> 05:07:24,760 uh workforce middle income deals. Currently, NHP 1987 05:07:20,718 --> 05:07:32,560 uh is is working on two similar portfolios that are are slated to to 1988 05:07:28,000 --> 05:07:42,080 close soon after this. 2,000 units in Washington DC and 1500 in M Minnesota. 1989 05:07:37,638 --> 05:07:50,400 uh a repayment guarantee is treated substantially different by S&P than a 1990 05:07:46,360 --> 05:07:56,400 construction completion guarantee. And it, you know, based on our rating, which 1991 05:07:54,320 --> 05:08:02,480 is what we're using to actually be able to do the loan for this 1992 05:07:59,480 --> 05:08:10,160 deal at, you know, as high a leverage and as low a rate as we're able to get. 1993 05:08:06,520 --> 05:08:15,440 um a repayment guarantee for reasons that perhaps only S&P can truly explain 1994 05:08:13,600 --> 05:08:21,840 takes it out of the bucket that they look at as governmental subsidy loans, 1995 05:08:18,718 --> 05:08:28,560 not really a loan, doesn't go against an HP's debt limit, and puts it into real 1996 05:08:25,718 --> 05:08:34,240 loan goes against our debt limit. Prevents us to do future business. And 1997 05:08:31,040 --> 05:08:39,600 it's not so much that $8 million is is the difference, but on those other two 1998 05:08:36,798 --> 05:08:45,760 deals which are looking to this deal, you know, as the lead example and are 1999 05:08:42,480 --> 05:08:52,920 being structured like it, uh the numbers are substantially larger 2000 05:08:49,638 --> 05:08:58,560 and we're sort of in a in a pickle. Now, luckily they they don't really view 2001 05:08:55,840 --> 05:09:04,480 construction guarantees that way. They're viewed as sort of a normal 2002 05:09:01,360 --> 05:09:09,798 contingent guarantee, you know, that we give all the time to tax credit 2003 05:09:06,920 --> 05:09:14,878 investors. I think it it ultimately provides I think you the safety that 2004 05:09:12,160 --> 05:09:19,360 that you that you want and you need, which is we're not going to leave you a 2005 05:09:17,680 --> 05:09:24,638 half finishedish building and walk out of town. That we're going to finish what 2006 05:09:22,000 --> 05:09:30,080 we started and it's going to pass all the inspections and and get leased up. 2007 05:09:27,600 --> 05:09:30,080 So 2008 05:09:30,360 --> 05:09:41,878 that's the um the long and short of it. Gotcha. Thank you, Neil. Any questions 2009 05:09:38,000 --> 05:09:45,520 for Neil on the amendment or addendum? Questions for 2010 05:09:46,440 --> 05:09:55,200 Thaad? Great. No questions. Thanks, Neil. We'll open it up to any public 2011 05:09:52,600 --> 05:09:59,920 comment. No public comment in chambers. Any online? None online. We'll close 2012 05:09:57,360 --> 05:10:03,320 public comment, come back to council for any further 2013 05:10:01,638 --> 05:10:08,160 discussion or commissioners for any further 2014 05:10:05,840 --> 05:10:12,400 discussion. With the approval of this, this goes 2015 05:10:09,680 --> 05:10:16,320 back to council though regular session. Correct. Because we made a change to it. 2016 05:10:14,400 --> 05:10:22,120 It'll come back for two readings and then not have to come back here because 2017 05:10:18,000 --> 05:10:22,120 we approved it here. Correct. 2018 05:10:29,360 --> 05:10:33,480 It doesn't matter if we did 2019 05:10:34,160 --> 05:10:40,798 from the standpoint of the project starting on time, it has 2020 05:10:38,958 --> 05:10:46,080 no material effect because you're already under a development agreement 2021 05:10:42,638 --> 05:10:50,160 with NHP. It would change the nature of the unconditional guarantee related to 2022 05:10:48,480 --> 05:10:56,760 the loan um but not the underlying terms of the 2023 05:10:53,280 --> 05:10:56,760 development agreement. 2024 05:10:58,000 --> 05:11:05,280 Um what's the consensus of staff on this? 2025 05:11:03,120 --> 05:11:13,240 Well, staff has not had a whole lot of time to talk about it, but you know, it 2026 05:11:07,840 --> 05:11:16,718 to to me it it and I'm guessing that perhaps if I heard more from the 2027 05:11:15,520 --> 05:11:23,360 attorneys, it might be a little different, but um and so I suggest you 2028 05:11:19,760 --> 05:11:29,280 ask that question as well. But um in either case, if we were at the point 2029 05:11:26,120 --> 05:11:34,760 where a a project was going to default and we were going to be left with an 2030 05:11:31,840 --> 05:11:40,718 unfinished building, we would be in litigation whether we were trying to get 2031 05:11:37,040 --> 05:11:46,560 our money back from a loan or we were trying to get the project finished by 2032 05:11:43,520 --> 05:11:53,040 who promised to finish it. So, I kind of look at at it the same way that as long 2033 05:11:50,798 --> 05:12:00,798 as there's an unconditional guarantee to finish the project, we're probably okay. 2034 05:11:56,440 --> 05:12:06,240 Plus, in either case, we would not pay any further on that loan, which is going 2035 05:12:03,360 --> 05:12:10,638 to get drawn over time. If we were in that position, we would stop loaning the 2036 05:12:09,120 --> 05:12:17,520 money um and would hold back until such time 2037 05:12:14,718 --> 05:12:22,160 as either somebody else started to build that building again and we needed to put 2038 05:12:19,200 --> 05:12:27,120 that money in or they started to build that building again. Good clarity. Thank 2039 05:12:25,040 --> 05:12:32,878 you. Did you have anything to add to that? Not to add to it. I I would 2040 05:12:30,240 --> 05:12:37,760 suggest that as this language is brought back before council for another couple 2041 05:12:35,600 --> 05:12:42,878 readings amendment that we invite this is John's language right so I can 2042 05:12:39,840 --> 05:12:48,638 comment on it but John can speak with a more educated voice on the risks and the 2043 05:12:45,360 --> 05:12:52,320 risk beingated and and the risks not um but I don't disagree with with what said 2044 05:12:51,120 --> 05:13:00,240 and certainly we do have that next reading to discuss a further 2045 05:12:55,840 --> 05:13:06,160 good question it is anyone else. Has everyone had some time to to to at least 2046 05:13:04,718 --> 05:13:11,400 have some discussions about what this change is? 2047 05:13:08,400 --> 05:13:11,400 Cool. 2048 05:13:11,760 --> 05:13:18,958 Great. With that, I would entertain a motion one way or the other. Uh, did I 2049 05:13:16,560 --> 05:13:22,718 hear that we have to reread it and um No, I think you can just approve the I 2050 05:13:21,200 --> 05:13:27,360 just read resolution. Yeah, it looks good, right? Noting the changes to the 2051 05:13:24,798 --> 05:13:32,360 unconditional guarantee. I make a motion we approve resolution FCHDA25-03 2052 05:13:33,600 --> 05:13:42,840 with changes to the agreement indicated um by NHP's red line of the 2053 05:13:38,480 --> 05:13:42,840 unconditional guarantee as 2054 05:13:43,760 --> 05:13:52,240 with as stated by town attorney uh is that good enough that is 2055 05:13:49,920 --> 05:13:56,878 fine motion yeah the record will reflect motion I'm sure we have a motion do we 2056 05:13:55,040 --> 05:14:04,040 have a Second. Great. We have a motion and a 2057 05:13:59,200 --> 05:14:09,360 second to approve resolution FCHDA25-03. Stacy, please call the 2058 05:14:06,080 --> 05:14:15,120 question. Ryan, yes. Kibby, yes. Goldstein, yes. Allan, yes. Held is 2059 05:14:12,560 --> 05:14:22,958 absent. Inken, yes. And script check is absent. Great. Thank you, Stacy. 2060 05:14:18,878 --> 05:14:28,958 And with that, yes, I'd just like to thank you for that. Uh, I I will say as 2061 05:14:26,160 --> 05:14:34,560 an organization that's 100% smokefree in its buildings, we uh we appreciate your 2062 05:14:31,760 --> 05:14:39,520 earlier vote, but that unfortunately there will be flavored vodka at the 2063 05:14:36,638 --> 05:14:45,400 closing dinner. So, Julie 2064 05:14:41,080 --> 05:14:45,400 noted what flavor 2065 05:14:46,958 --> 05:14:55,120 with that I would entertain. Having completed all business of the Frisco 2066 05:14:52,560 --> 05:14:58,560 Housing Authority, I missed a word. With that, I would entertain a motion to 2067 05:14:56,638 --> 05:15:04,638 adjourn. Mayor, we like 2068 05:15:00,520 --> 05:15:11,040 to motion. Seconded. All those in favor? I. We are adjourned. We already 2069 05:15:07,200 --> 05:15:11,040 adjourned the first meeting. or