1 00:00:07,410 --> 00:00:10,490 [Music] 2 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:30,439 All right, we'll call this meeting to order. Um, thank you for those of you 3 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:30,439 joining us in person and also on Zoom. 4 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:41,000 Um, first item on the agenda is the roll call. Um, so Kevin is going to be our 5 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:46,559 standing in as our alternate this evening. Um, nothing for the board to do 6 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:50,640 on that. Uh, second item is the agenda adoption. Do I have a motion to approve 7 00:00:48,399 --> 00:00:57,360 the agenda? Motion to approve the agenda. Second. Second. All in favor? I. 8 00:00:54,640 --> 00:01:01,239 Any opposed? Agenda is approved. Um, special 9 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:05,799 presentations. I don't believe we have any. Is that correct, Zach? Correct. No 10 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:11,360 special presentations. Um, we'll move in the 11 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:15,360 consent agenda. The only item there is to approve the minutes from the January 12 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:19,680 10th, 2024 uh meeting. Do I have a motion to 13 00:01:17,119 --> 00:01:27,200 approve the consent agenda? Motion to approve the consent agenda. A 14 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:31,960 second. All in favor? I. Any opposed? All right, next item on the agenda is 15 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:38,439 public hearings. We have H2023-2A. This is Benador Chemicals LLC. 16 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:44,640 This is an appeal of administrative decision. 17 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:49,040 Um, should we move into the uh signup sheet for public health first or 18 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:58,040 allowed? I mean, he's the first to sign up. Please who's going to do things? 19 00:02:04,799 --> 00:02:10,399 So, let let's go ahead and go through the people who've signed up on the 20 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:16,480 public hearing first and then we'll um move into those that are on Zoom. Um the 21 00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:20,640 first person on here, I'm sorry I can't quite make out the last name. I believe 22 00:02:18,319 --> 00:02:24,720 it's you, Mike. It is. It is Mike Felen. Yeah. Um so, we'll let you go first. If 23 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:29,680 you could please uh come to the deis and state your name and address for the 24 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,680 record. We need to 25 00:02:30,599 --> 00:02:37,680 swear everybody at the same time. Fair enough. 26 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:44,360 Yeah. Anybody in the audience that is wishing to speak needs to stand up and 27 00:02:39,519 --> 00:02:48,360 be sworn in and Harley will do that for us. Armen. 28 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:56,239 Okay. So, please raise your right hand. Do you solemnly affirm the testimony you 29 00:02:54,879 --> 00:03:02,760 give to the board think it will be the old truth? If so, please state yes. Yes. 30 00:02:59,599 --> 00:03:02,760 Thank you. 31 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:14,560 Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the board. Um, I'm here tonight. My name 32 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:20,400 is Mike Thielen. I'm a lawyer with WLE Bond Dickinson. Uh, my address is 555 33 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:28,560 Fatal Street in Raleigh. I'm here in behalf of the property owner, Ventor 34 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:32,560 Chemicals LLC. Um we had spoken um the town attorney and the attorney for the 35 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:37,680 board, Mr. Benshaw and Mr. Cook and I had talked about um an order of 36 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:43,280 presentation. Um as this is this is an appeal. So um because we bear the 37 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:47,040 burden, we go first as the property owner here. Um and you'll you'll hear 38 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:52,640 more about what we're appealing, of course. Um, but I'm going to give a 39 00:03:50,319 --> 00:03:55,920 brief opening. I'll keep it short. Just explain generally what you're going to 40 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:59,439 hear tonight from our perspective. Then I'm going to move over to that chair and 41 00:03:57,519 --> 00:04:04,480 the witnesses. There'll be three witnesses, two from Ventor and one from 42 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:09,680 ERM, which is um the site design engineer for Ventor for this project 43 00:04:07,519 --> 00:04:12,959 will come up here and testify from this deis. And I'll sit and ask questions 44 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:20,079 over from the side. Just that's how it'll look visually. Um but moving very 45 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:26,400 quickly um into what you'll hear tonight and you have this on your monitors as 46 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:31,919 well. This is um this is an appeal um it's not it's not an appeal of an 47 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:36,320 interpretation of the ordinance um per se. It is an interp it's an appeal 48 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:40,240 rather of the town from our perspective from the town rendering an 49 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:47,560 interpretation of its ordinance at our request at Ventor's request in August of 50 00:04:43,639 --> 00:04:52,800 2022. Um the Ventor relied on that interpretation over the course of the 51 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:57,600 next 15 months. Um that interpretation was confirmed and you'll hear about this 52 00:04:54,720 --> 00:05:02,880 tonight a couple of times by town staff over that 15-month period and then in 53 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:07,120 November of 2023. So 15 months after that original interpretation that we 54 00:05:05,199 --> 00:05:12,639 contend is final and binding on the town and correct and legally correct um in 55 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:16,880 our our opinion um that the town changed its interpretation 56 00:05:14,479 --> 00:05:20,639 um and you'll hear some more details on that tonight. But the first bullet here 57 00:05:18,479 --> 00:05:25,360 is just a general overarching perspective. The town is empowered to 58 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:29,759 render, the town staff is empowered to render and property owners are entitled 59 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:34,400 to ask for, and this is both in state law, case law, and in the town's UDO as 60 00:05:32,479 --> 00:05:39,600 well, ask for interpretations of the ordinance. Um, this happens quite 61 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:44,080 frequently in my line of work where I have a client who's going to develop a 62 00:05:41,039 --> 00:05:48,080 project, wants to confirm that it can do um what it wants to do on the property. 63 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:52,479 It's not seeking a permit to do what it wants to do, but it says, "I want to 64 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:56,560 open a restaurant." Is this zoning allowed for restaurant use? Something to 65 00:05:55,039 --> 00:06:02,080 that effect. And the town writes back, "Yes, it is or no, it's not." Um, and 66 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:07,039 those interpretations, this property is zoned, this, can we do this use on this 67 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:10,880 property are final and binding on the town, um, and final and binding on the 68 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:15,039 property owner as well. They're binding on us as well as a property owner, 69 00:06:13,280 --> 00:06:19,280 unless either we appeal it or the town appeals it. It's awkward, but the town 70 00:06:17,199 --> 00:06:23,520 can appeal its own interpretations. If the town staff says you can do something 71 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:27,680 that a property owner takes that interpretation, relies on, the town does 72 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:33,600 not appeal it, the town is bound by that interpretation. You'll hear more about 73 00:06:30,039 --> 00:06:37,600 tonight. So, June of 2022 um and this is an important fact. Ventor 74 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:43,199 sends an email and reaches out to town staff and asks some pretty specific 75 00:06:40,639 --> 00:06:48,240 questions about what um it wants to do on its property. particular, it is 76 00:06:45,039 --> 00:06:53,440 trying to put an on-site landfill on its existing parcel. It's a large parcel. It 77 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:57,520 has a chemical plant on the property. Um, and again, you'll hear more about 78 00:06:54,880 --> 00:07:01,840 this. There is a lagoon on the property that houses waste water from the 79 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:05,759 chemical plant. Ventor is trying to shrink the size of that wastewater 80 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:09,840 lagoon. And in doing so, it is going to expose some settlement, some sediment on 81 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:13,840 the bottom of the lagoon. So, we're shrinking the size of the lagoon, 82 00:07:11,919 --> 00:07:18,160 exposing some sediment. They want to dig up that sediment instead of just having 83 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:21,440 it sit there on the property and move it to another part of the property, 84 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:25,840 actually further away from the boundary of the property, further to the interior 85 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:30,160 of the property, put it into um a landfill on the same site. So, it's not 86 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:34,560 getting anything from the chemical plant. It's only the sediment from the 87 00:07:32,479 --> 00:07:39,280 lagoon that's being shrunken in size. So, Bentor reaches out and again you'll 88 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:45,680 see the contents of the email and asks if the proposed on-site landfill is an 89 00:07:42,639 --> 00:07:49,360 all other waste related services use permitted by right on the property. 90 00:07:47,919 --> 00:07:56,840 That's the specific question that's asked of town staff in June of 91 00:07:53,400 --> 00:08:02,080 2022 town. Um then as part of that submission to the 92 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:08,240 town in June um the property owner veniator gives um a pre-application 93 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:12,240 summary sheet and on that sheet the um the property owner indicates it is not 94 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:16,400 applying for a conditional use permit that it believes it's property to 95 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:21,360 accommodate the on-site landfill that the on-site landfill is permitted by 96 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:26,400 right the town then in July of 22 returns that sheet back to Ventor 97 00:08:24,879 --> 00:08:30,720 signing and accepting that pre-application sheet where Ventor does 98 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:35,039 not apply for a conditional use permit because Ventor does not believe it needs 99 00:08:33,039 --> 00:08:39,200 at that point to obtain a conditional use permit, but it's looking for 100 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,200 confirmation from the 101 00:08:40,839 --> 00:08:51,120 town. It's not advancing anymore. Oh, there we go. Thanks. Um, then August 102 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:57,320 of 2022, this is not the determination at issue in this appeal. the town staff 103 00:08:54,080 --> 00:09:01,920 issues a letter and um that letter from our perspective was the 104 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:06,240 zoning determination, the written interpretation that's final and binding 105 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:11,160 on the town that says that the property quote is an approved zoning class for 106 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:15,440 the proposed on-site industrial landfill. Neither the town nor the 107 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:19,360 property owner appeals that determination. That's a letter from the 108 00:09:16,959 --> 00:09:24,440 town staff. It says that it says other things as well. You'll hear more about 109 00:09:20,560 --> 00:09:28,720 this letter tonight. No one appeals that determination. While I did say this is 110 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:33,440 not about the interpretation, you will hear about the interpretation whether 111 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:38,560 the landfill is a waste related use or whether it's some other use. But our 112 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:41,839 position is that we don't have to show that necessarily that's the only correct 113 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:46,880 interpretation. We have to show that that is in fact a correct interpretation 114 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:51,279 that this is a waste related use or otherwise permitted by right. And the 115 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:56,640 town confirmed that with its letter that it sent in August of 116 00:09:53,560 --> 00:10:02,080 2022. 15 months later or thereabouts in November of 2023. And you'll see this as 117 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:07,600 well. The town issues a ventor a memorandum a written memorandum from the 118 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:13,720 town that says again under town laws the use is waste related services allowed by 119 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:18,760 right. So the town has confirmed in our estimation what the town had told us in 120 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:24,720 August of 2022. Then in November then two weeks 121 00:10:21,839 --> 00:10:29,120 later in November 15th of 2023, 15 months again after that interpretation 122 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:34,360 that was given in August and confirmed over the course of the last 15 123 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:39,360 months. Ventor gets an email from the town that says that a special use permit 124 00:10:37,279 --> 00:10:44,959 is required for the proposed on-site landfills. our opinion, it's our 125 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:49,760 position that that is a reversal of the interpretation it gave in August of 2022 126 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:53,600 and the count the town and the property owner are bound by that. Just just as if 127 00:10:51,839 --> 00:10:56,720 we had not appealed that interpretation, which we did not, we would have been 128 00:10:55,200 --> 00:11:01,040 bound by it. If the town told us in August of 22 we had to get a special use 129 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:06,399 permit and we did not appeal that, we're out of luck. we've got to get a special 130 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:10,320 use permit here because we thought that the town issued a final and binding 131 00:11:08,079 --> 00:11:14,399 interpretation in August of 22. We relied on that. It was confirmed over 15 132 00:11:12,399 --> 00:11:18,720 months. The town cannot change its position in November of 2023. You're 133 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,600 going to hear from three witnesses again tonight. You're going to hear from two 134 00:11:19,839 --> 00:11:27,200 folks from Ventor who were involved in this and you're going to hear from from 135 00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:31,519 the civil site engineer at erm who's the vendor and the site design engineer for 136 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:36,399 Ventor on this project. We will keep this as smooth and as quick as possible. 137 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:41,079 You have binders in front of you that have the paper exhibits that we'll refer 138 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:46,399 to as we're asking questions. And with that, do we want to I'll do we want to 139 00:11:44,079 --> 00:11:49,480 have Rich open as well or or should we just keep it rolling from this 140 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:54,720 perspective? Um well, I'll let the the board decide 141 00:11:52,480 --> 00:12:00,000 that, but I would you know, the staff was going to present their um um staff 142 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:05,680 report and then I was going to follow that up with my comments. Okay. So, um 143 00:12:03,839 --> 00:12:10,200 I'll leave it up to the board as to whether they want to hear from Zach next 144 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:15,920 before the witnesses or whether you'd rather hear 145 00:12:12,639 --> 00:12:20,000 from from Mr. Theland's witnesses. Honestly, my preference would be to get 146 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:24,240 through everybody on the signup sheet and then proceed with the order that you 147 00:12:22,079 --> 00:12:24,240 just 148 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:30,720 suggested because this is a public hearing after 149 00:12:28,519 --> 00:12:36,800 all. Some of the folks that are signed up on there, Mr. Chairman, are the 150 00:12:32,639 --> 00:12:42,959 witnesses for Ventor. Um, so Jonathine, Kevin Robinson, and Dave Washella. Okay, 151 00:12:40,639 --> 00:12:46,240 that's all I have on the list. Let me check and see if anybody's on Zoom that 152 00:12:44,639 --> 00:12:52,600 wishes to speak. Otherwise, we'll just proceed with those 153 00:12:48,279 --> 00:12:57,160 folks. Nobody's on. Anybody else in the room? Got a hand here. 154 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:03,880 You You'll need to be sworn in first. So Carly, if you could please 155 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:18,000 raise your right hand so affirm the testimony to the whole board will be the 156 00:13:16,079 --> 00:13:21,839 whole truth. If so, state yes. Yes. Thank you for state your name and your 157 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:28,320 address, please. Uh my name's Robert Smith. Uh my address is 8258 Quail 158 00:13:24,959 --> 00:13:33,560 Hollow Drive, which is uh in the county technically. 159 00:13:29,839 --> 00:13:39,360 Um, I just I just wanted to say that uh, you know, I want to thank the town 160 00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:44,560 for at least initially having uh, determined that there would be a special 161 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:49,839 use permit uh, process because I think there are some things that are on the 162 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:55,120 local interest that may not have been, you know, in the awareness of the people 163 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:59,040 at the state level or other levels higher that I think should be uh, 164 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:06,720 considered. And in particular, it's the land across 165 00:14:03,279 --> 00:14:12,000 from the Vintor site that's now owned by the town. Hasn't been owned by the town 166 00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:18,800 too long, as far as I understand it, maybe 10 years. Uh, and it's a historic 167 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:24,720 site where the old mill used to be. And it's also a place where at least there 168 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:32,160 was some discussion as I understand as an outsider of possibly being a park. 169 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:38,240 And I have used that property to access the river. I know that other people do 170 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:42,320 the same thing. And so my concern relates 171 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:48,399 to what is done to make sure that water is safe to access. And I haven't had 172 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:53,639 time to read all the documents, but I've looked at some of the 173 00:14:50,120 --> 00:15:02,160 um annual report uh groundwater monitoring ground uh 174 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:06,720 groundwater reports and um there are parameters that are out of spec so to 175 00:15:04,079 --> 00:15:11,720 speak and I think those concerns ought to be considered on a local level. So 176 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:17,839 I'm not a lawyer. I have no idea about the uh procedural concerns, but I just 177 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:22,720 wanted to say that I went to the public hearing that was held in December uh and 178 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:25,760 I looked forward to digging into this a little more and so I was surprised to 179 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:29,240 find out that the process was kind of being 180 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:33,959 derailed. Uh that's about all I have. Okay. Thank you, sir. 181 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,959 You want me to? 182 00:15:40,079 --> 00:15:48,480 Um I'm just I'm I'm fine to do that. Yeah. All right. So, um we do want to do 183 00:15:45,279 --> 00:15:52,880 any disclosures if there are any. So, um I'll just read this for the board. Um 184 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:57,040 the the parties to this case are entitled to an impartial board. A board 185 00:15:55,360 --> 00:16:01,279 member may not participate in this hearing if he or she has a fixed opinion 186 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:06,000 about the matter, a financial interest in the outcome of the matter, or a close 187 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:10,639 relationship with an affected person. Does any board member have any 188 00:16:07,839 --> 00:16:18,399 partiality to disclose and recusal to offer to the chair? 189 00:16:13,199 --> 00:16:23,759 Nope. Okay. Thanks, sir. Um, so we'll uh let the town make an opening statement. 190 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:30,360 Um and then um you can do your presentation again with your witnesses 191 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:30,360 uh with cross-examination by the town. 192 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:10,079 So, go ahead. Uh, I'm not sure Mike's on. That's fine. 193 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:13,919 Uh the the the order of the meeting is opening 194 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:19,600 statements and then the appellent ventor puts their case on and then you put your 195 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:25,959 case on. So So this would be your opening 196 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:31,280 statement and not not your not your your whole presentation. I I frankly I would 197 00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:35,120 just stick to my staff report and I I don't need to make an opening statement. 198 00:17:35,679 --> 00:17:43,480 Well, that well that's not an that's not an opening statement. That's that's your 199 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,480 case. 200 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:55,600 So, if I understand you want my presentation? 201 00:17:53,520 --> 00:18:03,880 Uh, no. I want to know if you have an opening statement, a summary of of your 202 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,880 case that you will put on after Ventor. 203 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:11,320 I will provide you with a brief summary. 204 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:23,039 So, the appeal before you this evening is 205 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:33,039 to determine whether staff's determination or to to make a decision 206 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:39,600 whether the determination of staff was appropriate that a special use permit is 207 00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:46,240 required for the proposed um industrial landfill. Uh we believe that the 208 00:18:43,039 --> 00:18:52,240 determination was appropriate um based on the ordinance based on the um 209 00:18:49,600 --> 00:19:00,960 definitions for heavy industry, light industry, waste disposal services and um 210 00:18:56,799 --> 00:19:08,160 we also believe that the um the letter that was issued was not binding. Um in 211 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:14,200 fact it was a uh an assessment of the zoning at the time uh not of the 212 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:22,720 proposed use. Um and uh that letter did include uh ample um um notation that 213 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:36,720 rules and regulations of the town still had to be um adhered to. And so we will 214 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:41,760 um present and we will um address the uh issues that were raised by the applicant 215 00:19:39,679 --> 00:19:48,559 in their application. Primarily two points. Uh first point uh was that the 216 00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:54,640 letter uh issued by our code enforcement officer Tom Leser was binding and final. 217 00:19:51,919 --> 00:20:02,679 We'll address that. Um and then secondly we will address the 218 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:08,600 um determination made by staff and the uh allegation by the applicant that that 219 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:14,160 was erroneous because the use is not heavy 220 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:20,400 industrial but in fact it is light industry light industrial and or uh 221 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:26,080 waste disposal services. So we we we will address that. Um and uh we believe 222 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:32,720 that um the determination was appropriate. Um it was in line with the 223 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,720 UDO and uh it should be 224 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:40,760 supported. That that concludes. Thank you. 225 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:45,000 So if you'd like to make your presentation. 226 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:53,480 Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would call Jonath Stein to testify. 227 00:20:56,799 --> 00:21:05,200 Are these the exhibits? Yes, they are. State your name and your address. Um, 228 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:09,000 Jonath Stein, 1010 Waldorf Avenue, Monroe, North Carolina. 229 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:17,280 Can we go back to the uh to the beginning of my PowerPoint if you don't 230 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:20,760 mind? I know we're jumping around here. Sorry about that. 231 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,559 Thank you. 232 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:45,919 Okay. Miss Son, do you work for Ventor Chemicals? Yes, I do. What is your title 233 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:50,159 at Venager? My title is environmental health and safety manager. And have you 234 00:21:48,159 --> 00:21:54,480 been involved in Venetra's efforts to locate the proposed on-site landfill on 235 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:59,760 Ventor's property? Yes, I have. As part of that involvement in 2022, did you 236 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:04,080 discuss with the town staff the proposed on-site industrial landfill and how the 237 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:09,200 town's laws address the permitting of the landfill? Yes, I did. 238 00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:15,679 If you could turn in your binders, please, to um to exhibit one. 239 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:20,960 It's also up here. Um the portion of which is up here on the slides. And Miss 240 00:22:18,159 --> 00:22:27,600 Stein, what is this document behind page one? Um this is a document that I said 241 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:33,120 to or sent to Craig Thomas of the town. Um which basically covers the 242 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:37,679 description of the project that we were doing and it's also where I submitted 243 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:42,320 the forms required for the zoning determination. Okay. And who is Mr. 244 00:22:40,159 --> 00:22:47,039 Thomas? Mr. Thomas was the senior planner at that time. All right. And um 245 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:52,799 and why did you send this email to Mr. Thomas back in June of 2022? So 246 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:58,480 basically the company was undertaking a new project. We knew we would need 247 00:22:55,039 --> 00:23:03,280 zoning approval and uh the zoning determination was also required by the 248 00:23:00,799 --> 00:23:09,600 state of North Carolina. So, we were seeking to get clarification from the 249 00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:14,159 town on whether the site was acceptable for proposed industrial solid waste 250 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:19,760 landfill and we needed that documentation to send into the state. 251 00:23:17,039 --> 00:23:24,000 Okay. And does your email describe the proposed landfill to Mr. Thomas? Yeah, 252 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:28,960 basically it says that it's an industrial solid waste landfill. 253 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:34,400 um that it meets the definition of a waste management unit which is there 254 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:41,200 solely to support the industrial use of the site. That it meets the um the 255 00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:47,000 zoning uh buffers required by the state which was 200 ft from the property line 256 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:53,120 and 500 ft from for residences. And um it also indicated 257 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:57,760 that we would not be taking waste from off-site sources. we would only be 258 00:23:55,520 --> 00:24:02,720 getting waste from on-site from the lagoon. So, that was part of the 259 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:06,799 description in the email. Thank you. And this email contains some attachments, 260 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:12,400 too. Is that correct? Yes, sir. It contains um basically the email. Uh 261 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:16,799 there was an aerial photograph of the site showing the landfill location, the 262 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:21,919 proposed landfill location. Right, that's the picture on the left. And then 263 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:27,120 it had a site plan, which you can see is a more technical document, um, a drawing 264 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:33,039 of the proposed landfill. And it also had the pre-application form that the 265 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:38,320 town requires and it also had a table from the UDO that we were specifically 266 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:43,279 asking questions on. Okay. Going back to the email, Miss 267 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:49,200 Stein, um, in the third paragraph there that begins our understanding. 268 00:24:46,799 --> 00:24:53,520 Yes. Can you read um starting with that second sentence from the attached can 269 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:57,960 you read that all the way to the end of that paragraph into the record please? 270 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:07,679 So from the attached land use tables from the UDO, development of an on-site 271 00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:12,799 industrial landfill that will only receive on-site generated waste for 272 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:19,039 waste management would be deemed all other waste related services and is 273 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:24,360 permitted within EC zoning. We arrive at this conclusion as we are not developing 274 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:30,400 a demolition landfill permitted with limitations or a salvage yard permitted 275 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:35,520 as special use. This opinion is formed by interpreting Harrisburg's newly 276 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:40,880 adopted UDO. Hopefully, you can provide clarification on this issue. Thank you. 277 00:25:39,039 --> 00:25:45,840 So, with this email, are you seeking the town's interpretation of its UDO as 278 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:50,640 applies to the use that you've described in this email and attachments? Yes. 279 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:56,400 Okay. Um, going back to the attachments to the email, the one that's there on 280 00:25:53,440 --> 00:26:00,559 the right, um, and it's page five of this exhibit from a pageionation 281 00:25:58,799 --> 00:26:04,919 standpoint, uh, there's no pageionation, but if you turn to to the fifth 282 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:09,520 sheet to the fifth sheet, which is the the 283 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:15,520 pre-application meeting summary, the fifth sheet behind this tab one, this is 284 00:26:13,039 --> 00:26:20,240 one of the attachments to your June 2022 email. Is that correct? Correct. At the 285 00:26:17,679 --> 00:26:23,360 bottom right under miscellaneous, you see there at the top there's a bunch of 286 00:26:21,919 --> 00:26:26,960 check boxes and there's one for conditional use permit. Do you see that? 287 00:26:25,039 --> 00:26:33,120 Yes, I do. And that's not checked, is it? It is not. Why is that not checked? 288 00:26:29,919 --> 00:26:39,360 Well, as I said in the um introduction to the email, we thought the site was um 289 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:44,080 met the definition of waste related services and based on the UDO UDO table 290 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:48,720 that that would be permitted by rights. So, we didn't think a special use permit 291 00:26:45,919 --> 00:26:55,400 was needed. Okay. Thank you. So, moving on to exhibit two. If you could flip the 292 00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:55,400 tab to exhibit two. 293 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:11,600 And what is this document? Uh, basically it's a snippet from the town 294 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:16,720 regulations. Okay. And about halfway down, do you see 295 00:27:14,159 --> 00:27:22,000 the term waste related use? Yes, I do. So, is that the definition from the 296 00:27:18,559 --> 00:27:26,720 town's UDO that you were seeking the town's guidance on with your June email? 297 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:32,080 Yes. With regard to whether your proposed on-site landfill met that use 298 00:27:29,679 --> 00:27:36,720 determination? Yes. Okay. And is that permitted as of right, that particular 299 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:44,039 use on the property? According to that UDO table that we sent along with the 300 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:44,039 application, yes, it was. Okay. 301 00:27:45,679 --> 00:27:53,279 Did you get a response from Mr. Thomas to your June 6, 20122 email behind 302 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:58,960 exhibit one? Uh, it took not right away. So, I had to call and or emailed him to 303 00:27:55,919 --> 00:28:06,320 follow up with him. Okay. Um, let's go to tab three, please. Um, everybody 304 00:28:03,159 --> 00:28:09,679 behind tab three in the exhibit binder. Um, and what is this document, Miss 305 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:15,200 Stein? This is the um pre-application meeting 306 00:28:12,559 --> 00:28:19,520 summary. Okay. Is does this look like the same summary that you submitted with 307 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:27,440 your June email? Um it's it's somewhat different. 308 00:28:23,679 --> 00:28:31,360 How is it different? Because it has um fees associated with it. I did not put 309 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:37,840 in any fees when I submitted the form. And it also has uh approval 310 00:28:34,279 --> 00:28:42,159 signatures on the back page. Okay. Turning to that back page and again 311 00:28:40,559 --> 00:28:47,559 thank you to all for jumping around. Two, three, four, five. It's the fifth 312 00:28:46,290 --> 00:28:53,200 [Music] page of this exhibit 313 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:58,960 three. And here it is in front of you as well on your monitors. Um, turn to that 314 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:03,000 fifth page at the top there. Do you see where it says participant information 315 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:07,919 and acceptance of requirements? Do you see that, Miss 316 00:29:04,799 --> 00:29:13,760 Stein? Yes. Um, and are are those signatures are those are those 317 00:29:09,679 --> 00:29:18,640 signatures um of town staff members? Yes. Craig Thomas and Patrick Kings. 318 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:23,200 Okay. And then going back to the first page, this is the last time I promise 319 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:28,960 everybody the back to the first page of that exhibit three. Do you see where um 320 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:35,039 that conditional use permit block? Do you see how that's been 321 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:39,440 um does that remain unchecked? Right. Once again, we didn't believe a 322 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:44,240 conditional use permit was required because we believed the interpretation 323 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:49,919 of the UDO was waste related services permitted by right within that zoning 324 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:53,919 class. Okay. So, this still so this exhibit three, it still has the 325 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:57,360 conditional use permit unchecked, but the town at this point, town staff in 326 00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:02,640 your understanding has filled in fee amounts and has signed and accepted this 327 00:29:59,919 --> 00:30:09,720 application summary form. Yes. without that conditional use permit block 328 00:30:04,159 --> 00:30:09,720 checked. Yes. Okay. Thank you. 329 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:17,360 All right. And so you mentioned you didn't hear from Mr. Thomas for a few 330 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:20,919 weeks. Um flipping to exhibit four behind your binders. 331 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:30,000 And what is this document, Miss Sign? So, basically, this is an email where I 332 00:30:27,679 --> 00:30:34,679 reached out to Craig Thomas checking on the status of the zoning determination. 333 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:48,640 Okay. And how does he respond to you in this 334 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:53,919 email? So, at this time, um, when I emailed him, he responded by asking for 335 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:57,679 a formal site plan. Uh, we were a little surprised by that. We didn't think we 336 00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:01,080 needed a formal site plan at this point. Um, I told him we were looking for a 337 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:07,000 zoning determination in order to comply with 338 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:14,600 the state regulations under um, North Carolina Administrative Code 339 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:20,080 15A 13B, which are the application requirements for industrial solid waste 340 00:31:17,679 --> 00:31:25,720 landfills. So I specifically called out we were trying to meet the requirements 341 00:31:22,799 --> 00:31:31,760 of that regulation and basically that regulation requires that the person 342 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:36,880 putting in the landfill get a zoning approval and or that the property is not 343 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:45,240 zoned. So that's what we were looking for. Um, and then he asked me, um, if I 344 00:31:40,799 --> 00:31:50,399 had an example of what was needed and, um, you know, I provided, I think, 345 00:31:48,159 --> 00:31:57,720 another follow-up email to him on that. We did. We did. Okay. So, if you'll flip 346 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,720 to exhibit five. 347 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:08,960 And what is this document, Miss Stein? This is the um draft letter that I put 348 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:13,519 together to send to Craig so he would have a starting point for his zoning 349 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:18,000 determination. Okay. And then turning to the second 350 00:32:15,279 --> 00:32:24,799 page of this exhibit, is this the language you provided to Mr. Thomas as 351 00:32:21,679 --> 00:32:29,799 attached to that email on August 18th of 2022? Yes, it is. Okay. 352 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:41,840 So he asked you for a form of letter that you might an example and 353 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:46,080 this is what you provided to him. Okay. And did you send that consistent with 354 00:32:43,519 --> 00:32:51,679 your understanding at the time that this proposed on-site landfill is a waste 355 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:56,880 related use permitted by right on the property? Correct. You know no uses had 356 00:32:54,399 --> 00:33:02,720 changed. No, nothing had changed in our aside from what we thought was required. 357 00:32:59,919 --> 00:33:06,120 Okay, flipping to exhibit six in your tab, please. 358 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:16,799 And what is this document, Miss Sign? So, this is the letter that we got from 359 00:33:13,279 --> 00:33:21,519 the town um on August 19th, 2022, a zoning determination letter, which 360 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:28,000 basically said that the proposed industrial landfill zoning was 361 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:33,120 acceptable. Objection, please. She can read the letter or read from the letter, 362 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:38,840 but she can't characterize. Okay. Can you read 363 00:33:35,799 --> 00:33:44,440 from the second page of the letter, Miss Stein? had objections to say anything. 364 00:33:45,039 --> 00:33:48,039 So, 365 00:33:48,799 --> 00:33:54,559 what do you want me to do? Can you read from that top portion of that second 366 00:33:52,799 --> 00:33:59,600 page? The first paragraph of the second page. The town of Harrisburg is in 367 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:05,919 receipt of a pre-application meeting summary form, site layout map, and a 368 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:11,200 preliminary site plan which shows the proposed on-site industrial landfill. 369 00:34:08,720 --> 00:34:16,560 The current zoning is an approved zoning zoning class for the proposed on-site 370 00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:20,839 industrial landfill. And did you understand this to confirm 371 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:26,480 your email of June 2022 as what the use was? Yeah, we did. 372 00:34:24,720 --> 00:34:29,800 And you understood that house specifically how did you understand 373 00:34:27,839 --> 00:34:35,679 that? So we understood it because the way we 374 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:42,480 phrased the question that it was a waste related use. Um, and it was permitted by 375 00:34:40,240 --> 00:34:45,760 right under that UDO chart that we submitted in our 376 00:34:52,760 --> 00:35:00,520 email. All right. Now going back, I'm sorry again for the toggling everybody, 377 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:06,480 but going back to exhibit five and M Stein to exhibit five and 378 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:12,200 that draft language that you provided to Mr. Thomas in exhibit 379 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:18,240 five and then going to exhibit 380 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:22,160 six to that language at the top of the second 381 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:25,839 page. Does that language appear to be the same to you? It does. 382 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:32,960 Okay. And what did you take away from that? 383 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:37,040 Um, basically the same same thing that uh the industrial the proposed 384 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:42,200 industrial solid waste landfill was a waste related use permitted by Wright. 385 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:59,920 Did Ventor Did Ventor ever appeal that 386 00:35:55,359 --> 00:36:06,800 August 19th, 2022 No. letter? Did the town ever appeal to your knowledge that 387 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:12,160 August 19th, 2022 letter? Okay. Uh, did Ventor rely on that August 2022 letter 388 00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:16,720 as a as a zoning determination? Yeah, very much so. So because we got that 389 00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:22,000 zoning determination letter that we thought believed that the site was 390 00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:33,040 approved for the landfill, we basically began um our final design process. So 391 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:37,920 this was a lot of work over 15 months to um do the design. Some of that design 392 00:36:35,599 --> 00:36:44,079 included uh developing a site suitability report, an environmental 393 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:50,079 justice report, a hydrogeeologic report. We also did a postclosure care um uh 394 00:36:47,839 --> 00:36:57,440 plan. We did an operating plan. We developed a qual um a CQA plan, a 395 00:36:54,280 --> 00:37:01,839 construction quality assurance plan. We developed technical specifications for 396 00:36:59,359 --> 00:37:09,440 the design of the landfill. We also did numerous engineering drawings um and 397 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:14,240 spent a lot of time and effort um getting that that design work done. And 398 00:37:12,079 --> 00:37:20,480 so it really put us in a a difficult position when uh we found out that you 399 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:24,560 know we needed a special use permit. But but yeah, that's we really relied on 400 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:29,760 that decision to go forward with the project. 401 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:35,040 So, had the town told Ventor in August of 2022 that a special use permit was 402 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:40,720 necessary for the proposed project, would Ventor have pursued that permit 403 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:44,640 before all those other tests and approvals that you just mentioned? 404 00:37:42,079 --> 00:37:50,800 Right. We would have, you know, done the special use permit application process 405 00:37:47,599 --> 00:37:54,560 um before we did the final design work. And in fact, we submitted that letter to 406 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:58,200 the state. So that that approval letter we got on the 19th, we actually 407 00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:04,240 submitted to North Carolina DEEQ solid waste. So this has been moved along the 408 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:08,520 you know the regulatory chain because we believed it was accepted. 409 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:13,680 To your knowledge, has a state accepted that as confirmation that the use is 410 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:16,640 permitted as of right on the property? I don't believe we've gotten specific 411 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:23,040 confirmation on that. The application process is still ongoing. 412 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:28,880 Okay. Now, if you could turn to um tab seven to exhibit seven, 413 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,880 please behind your 414 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:40,960 binders. And have you seen this email before? Yeah, this is an email uh to uh 415 00:38:37,119 --> 00:38:46,640 Craig Thomas from Michael Thomas back in November of 416 00:38:42,599 --> 00:38:50,880 2023. Uh we were basically checking in uh looking for the next steps. uh but as 417 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:55,920 we're really getting ready to start the project. And who is Michael Thomas? 418 00:38:53,280 --> 00:39:04,640 Michael Thomas is a construction project manager that we hired um to begin the 419 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:10,400 management of the landfill project. And if you'll turn to the fourth page of 420 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,400 this 421 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:16,440 tab, you'll see a document that begins there. 422 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:23,000 And have you seen this portion of this document before, Miss Stein? Yeah, this 423 00:39:21,599 --> 00:39:26,960 is a pre-application uh summary form, I 424 00:39:25,359 --> 00:39:32,560 believe, that the town requested that we submit to them. Okay. And if you'll go 425 00:39:29,839 --> 00:39:37,920 down to to section two, the type of application required, right? And then 426 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:43,599 under subsection C where it says quasi judicial applications, do you see where 427 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:47,520 it says special use permit? Yes, sir. Is that checked? No, it's not. Okay. And 428 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:52,240 this was submitted to the town by Michael Thomas. Is that correct? 429 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:57,520 Correct. Okay. And at the top there in line one, it says Ventor Chemicals 430 00:39:55,200 --> 00:40:00,760 on-site industrial landfill. Is that correct? That's correct. And had the 431 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:05,200 project changed from a use standpoint, maybe 432 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:08,880 things had changed on the margins. We'll hear about that. But had the project 433 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:13,280 changed from a use standpoint the time of the August letter that we just talked 434 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:19,599 about and the submission of this document by Mr. Thomas in November of 435 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:26,520 2023. No, the use has not changed. Okay. And then flipping to the next exhibit, 436 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,520 exhibit 8. 437 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:34,800 Have you seen this document before, Miss Stein? Yes. Okay. And what is this 438 00:40:31,359 --> 00:40:40,720 document? This document is a memo from the town of Harrisburg, uh, Mr. Craig 439 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:44,119 Thomas to Ventor Chem Chemicals, Mr. Michael Thomas. 440 00:40:45,119 --> 00:40:50,400 Okay. And you've seen this document before, correct? Right. Yes. And we 441 00:40:48,079 --> 00:40:56,720 talked about who Mr. Thomas is with Ventor. If you'll look down um in that I 442 00:40:54,800 --> 00:41:00,960 guess that bottom half of the first page where it says proposed use, right? Can 443 00:40:59,359 --> 00:41:07,280 you tell me what it says going across from proposed use? Right. It says uh uh 444 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:11,920 landfill and then it says waste related services allowed by right. Okay. And did 445 00:41:09,839 --> 00:41:16,160 you understand that to be again consistent with the August 2022 446 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:21,119 determination? Right. This is consistent with you know our original questions to 447 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:27,359 the town and the documentation that we've been seeing receiving from the 448 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:35,280 town since since uh June of 2022. Okay. And what is this document dated? Uh 111 449 00:41:31,839 --> 00:41:40,720 or excuse me 112 2023. Okay. So, this is from this past November, 15 months after 450 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:46,920 that August, right, 2022 letter. Okay. And then if you'll flip the page, 451 00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:54,800 and you'll look at the top there, I'm says phase one, 452 00:41:51,720 --> 00:41:59,520 right? Can you read to me what it says? Um, across from phase one, it says this 453 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:04,640 would require the removal of some existing heritage trees. applicant is 454 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:09,839 aware tree mitigation is required and has ample space to replant trees 455 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:13,560 elsewhere on site. On-site industrial landfill will only receive on-site 456 00:42:12,079 --> 00:42:19,440 generated waste on-site generated waste for waste 457 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:24,480 management is all other waste related services. Okay. And is that also 458 00:42:21,839 --> 00:42:28,560 consistent with what you understood from that August 459 00:42:26,119 --> 00:42:33,920 2022 letter confirming what you understood to be in your June 2022. 460 00:42:31,359 --> 00:42:38,160 Correct. Waste related uses uh permitted by right. Okay. And then moving up a 461 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:44,880 bit. I'm sorry. Going back to the first page again. I apologize for 462 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:49,839 toggling where it says process. Process. Uh, do you see halfway down or 463 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:53,640 about maybe 2/ird of the way down the page on the first page? 464 00:42:55,319 --> 00:43:03,640 Uh, I see site zoning, proposed use, setbacks, park. Oh, process. Okay, got 465 00:43:00,079 --> 00:43:10,640 it. Okay. And you see where it says um pre-application site plan reviews SCP 466 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:16,160 construction docs. Correct. Did that set off any bells or any alarms in Ventor's 467 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:21,040 mind in terms of a departure from what Ventor understood? Was the use permitted 468 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:24,960 by right? No, it didn't really. And you know if if anything it would have 469 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:31,440 applied we thought it would have applied to the chemical manufacturing process 470 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:36,640 itself. Um which is totally separated. You know we have 104 acres. So it's very 471 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:42,000 separate from this proposed landfill use is very different. Okay. And at the 472 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:46,800 bottom there of that same page, the second paragraph where it says the land 473 00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:51,880 use, assembly or processing of chemicals is characterized as heavy industrial in 474 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:56,400 the UDO and requires a special use permit. Did you feel that was the same 475 00:43:54,240 --> 00:43:59,760 in terms of how you understood Yeah. that middle section? Yeah. That that was 476 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:06,560 related to the chemical manufacturing process um production of uh finished 477 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:12,040 goods and such. uh but not this waste related use of the landfill. We saw that 478 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:16,960 as two separate things. Okay. So your understanding of this memo is that it 479 00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:22,240 was confirming again in August um in November, excuse me, of 23 what you 480 00:44:20,079 --> 00:44:25,760 understood the town had had determined in August of 22. Is that correct? Right. 481 00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:30,000 It seemed very consistent with everything else we had gotten from the 482 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:35,839 town. Okay. Um if you'll flip to the next exhibit, exhibit nine. 483 00:44:33,359 --> 00:44:41,359 Have you seen this email before? Yes, this is uh an email from the town 484 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:45,720 Shelley Deart to Michael Thomas of Venator Chemicals, November 485 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:54,400 15th, 2023. And it basically states uh very 486 00:44:50,400 --> 00:45:00,480 surprisingly to us um after 15 months of going through this zoning process that 487 00:44:57,839 --> 00:45:03,880 um the site now needs a special use permit. 488 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:09,200 Okay. And was this a surprise to Ventor? Very much so. Why 489 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:13,640 was it a surprise to Ventor? Well, because we had that zoning determination 490 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:18,960 letter from August 2022 which we had submitted in our 491 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:24,760 application process to the state and we felt that we were approved from a zoning 492 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,760 perspective. 493 00:45:25,359 --> 00:45:30,640 Now, did you believe that the August 2022 494 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:36,079 determination to have answered your email in June of 22? I did. Did you 495 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:39,599 believe it to be correct? I did. Do you believe that this interpretation is 496 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:44,560 correct that the use requires the special use permit? So, this one we we 497 00:45:42,319 --> 00:45:48,240 disagreed with, right? We thought that our landfill was a different use 498 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:52,960 altogether. It was that waste related services and based on our interpretation 499 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:56,319 of the ADO table that that was permitted by Wright. 500 00:45:54,720 --> 00:46:03,359 Thank you. I have nothing further, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, your witness. Yes. 501 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:10,000 Thank you. Um, Miss Stein, how long have you been with Vanitor Chemicals? 22 502 00:46:06,079 --> 00:46:16,400 years. Thank you. And um um when did Vanitor acquire the Chemical 503 00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:21,280 Specialties site out here in Harrison? Do you know? I think it dates back to 504 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:25,040 1965. So, Vantor has owned it. No, I Oh, you 505 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:29,960 mean how long have they owned it? Ventor. Yes. Uh 506 00:46:28,730 --> 00:46:36,240 [Music] 2014. I think it was 507 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:40,560 2014. We were acquired by Huntsman and then Huntsman had a spin-off and it 508 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:45,520 became Ventor Chemicals. I think around 2014. 509 00:46:42,079 --> 00:46:52,480 So, uh, prior to that, are you familiar with with the approvals for that site, 510 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:58,359 um, by the town, uh, with reference to all the activities that are out there in 511 00:46:54,640 --> 00:47:03,040 connection with that chemical plant? So, if not really, if you're referring to 512 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:07,040 the 2002 uh, special use permit required, no, 513 00:47:05,599 --> 00:47:12,160 that was before I came on site. They didn't come on site to 2005. 514 00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:18,000 But you are aware of that. It's actually in your exhibit 8 that that is mentioned 515 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:23,440 in this memo. I'm aware of it because Miss Deart sent that to us when she told 516 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:27,440 us that the town had changed their position um and they now wanted a 517 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:33,680 special use permit. That's when I became aware of it. Well, uh I would object you 518 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:38,800 saying the town changed its position. you the the documents speak for 519 00:47:36,359 --> 00:47:43,440 themselves, but that's how you interpret that's how I interpreted it that the 520 00:47:40,319 --> 00:47:50,640 town changed its position. Okay. Yeah. So, you did not investigate the the 521 00:47:46,319 --> 00:47:55,119 history of of this site um back to the time that it became chemical specialties 522 00:47:53,200 --> 00:48:01,280 prior to the time that Bentor took it over. Is that correct? I did not. 523 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:07,839 Um but now you see in this memo exhibit 8 that there had been a um some changes 524 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:14,400 to this this site and that they required a special use per correct. 525 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:18,560 As I said I thought the special use permit was related to more of the 526 00:48:16,319 --> 00:48:23,920 chemical manufacturing piece of it but we we did see this. Yes, I understand 527 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:28,400 you said that and I would ask you um look at the memo. It says proposed use 528 00:48:26,119 --> 00:48:33,359 landfill. Um, does that say anything about the chemical plant itself anywhere 529 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:39,280 in here? No, it says landfill. Okay. And this is 530 00:48:36,319 --> 00:48:44,960 one parcel that's over 100 acres. Is that right? Yes. Best of my knowledge. 531 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:51,599 Have you been out to the site? To our site? Yes, sir. There every day. 532 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,599 And 533 00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:58,800 um there's been a chemical plant out there for as long as you you've been 534 00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:04,160 involved with it. Is that correct? That's correct. All right. And the um 535 00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:10,960 and that chemical plant develops waste, doesn't it? It does. And that waste is 536 00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:16,000 what was placed in the lagoon. Isn't that correct? Uh from a regulatory 537 00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:21,040 standpoint, it's not waste. It's a wastewater treatment discharge. 538 00:49:18,720 --> 00:49:25,440 Uh the regulatory definition does make a difference. So it is wastewater 539 00:49:23,119 --> 00:49:30,880 treatment discharge. The lagoon is part of a permitted NPDS system. Well, it 540 00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:34,720 also has some solid waste in the bottom of it. It does create a sediment. Yes, 541 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:39,280 sir. And that that basically came from the chemical manufacturing, did it not? 542 00:49:37,599 --> 00:49:43,760 It comes from the chemical manufacturing and that's done on site. The chemical 543 00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:51,280 manufacturing is done on site. Correct. So really um this proposed um new use 544 00:49:47,839 --> 00:49:54,960 that you are describing is really just a change in the way you're going to deal 545 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:59,480 with the waste that you generate from the pet chemical plant that's on that 546 00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:05,119 same parcel. Right. No, the waste management the the way we wastewater 547 00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:08,880 treat the the waste from the manufacturing process is not going to 548 00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:13,599 change. It's still going to go to the lagoon and the sediments we're proposing 549 00:50:11,359 --> 00:50:17,680 go to the from a lagoon to the landfill. So the waste is not going to change or 550 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:21,920 the way we deal with it will not change. But it's not you're not bringing in 551 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:28,400 waste from offsite. We are not. It's all what is generated by the chemical plant 552 00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:33,280 on that part. That's correct. And and you don't know what the history of is of 553 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:37,839 that of site when there have been changes to the chemical plant. Do you? 554 00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:43,520 Well, I know a lot of regulatory history. I don't know the zoning 555 00:50:39,839 --> 00:50:47,599 history. So, let me clarify that. So, um you know, I am an environmental health 556 00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:53,359 and safety manager, so I know a lot about the regulatory history. Um but I'm 557 00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:57,960 I'm not a zoning expert history on the site. So, that I don't know as much 558 00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,960 about. 559 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:05,440 Now, um, having said that, are you aware that 560 00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:09,640 there are there are NOVs that have not been complied with on that site with 561 00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:14,559 reference to the U to the way it the waste has been 562 00:51:12,559 --> 00:51:19,680 handled on that site, but from the chemical manufacturing is true? I'll 563 00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:22,680 object to that, Mr. Chairman. That's irrelevant. 564 00:51:29,119 --> 00:51:31,760 Objection 565 00:51:39,559 --> 00:51:49,319 sustained. Let me take you back to your first review. uh number of blinds. That 566 00:51:45,839 --> 00:51:56,480 was that email from you to um Craig's comm right and other people 567 00:51:53,119 --> 00:52:02,319 in which you describe um that you looked at the Harrisburg UDO and made some 568 00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:06,640 determinations on your own. Um is that correct? That's correct. And um did you 569 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:12,240 not just tell me that you don't know that much about J zoning? I'm not a 570 00:52:08,720 --> 00:52:17,599 zoning expert. Okay. So, but we we did work with erm and based on their 571 00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:22,480 experience and other experiences that they've had with other landfills, 572 00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:26,160 um we do look at regulations quite a bit. So, we did read the regulations and 573 00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:32,559 try to make an interpretation. But this is your email. Yes, it is. This is your 574 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:38,720 what you uh said. Well, when you made your determination of the UDO um that's 575 00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:41,680 described in this email, did you look at table 576 00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:54,079 140.02.02-2 that has the zoning um send me to an exhibit. I don't have that 577 00:52:50,160 --> 00:53:01,760 exactly in your um your your attorney point brief. Um it's labeled as exhibit 578 00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:07,280 one to that point brief. And um so I can hand it I I think I've got it right. 579 00:53:04,559 --> 00:53:12,559 Yeah, that looks like it. Yeah, this is the portion of the table that we looked 580 00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:16,520 at. You did look at it. Yes, sir. And are you aware what the zoning is for 581 00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:21,839 this property? It's EC employment center. It's one parcel. 582 00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:29,359 Correct. Correct. It includes the the chemical plant. Correct. Right. And um 583 00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:35,920 what does EC um zoning say about heavy industrial according to this 584 00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:42,559 table? It says uh S and what does S stand for? According to the table, 585 00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:42,559 permitted as special use. Thank you. 586 00:53:44,359 --> 00:53:52,880 Um, do you um dispute that that a chemical plant is is not heavy 587 00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:56,640 industrial? Well, I would have to go back to the 588 00:53:54,720 --> 00:54:00,400 zoning definitions to make that determination. That would be how I would 589 00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:05,319 handle that. As a regulatory person, I always go back to my definitions to look 590 00:54:03,359 --> 00:54:10,520 at the regulatory definition. I don't have that memorized. 591 00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:21,160 Um, it's actually exhibit 11 in your book. Exhibit 11. 592 00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:34,079 Okay. Did you want me to read it or if you read out loud? Uh, you can't. You 593 00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:38,960 can go ahead and read the whole um definition of heavy industrial. You can 594 00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:43,240 start with paragraph two if you want to. Okay. Uses in this category include 595 00:54:41,119 --> 00:54:48,880 establishments that manufacture or process asphalt and coal, cement, 596 00:54:46,359 --> 00:54:54,839 concrete, ready mix and concrete products, chemicals, clay and brick, 597 00:54:51,599 --> 00:55:00,160 concrete, dry mix, food, metals, petroleum, stucco and synthetic stone 598 00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:05,880 and other uses meeting the definition of heavy industrial according to the 599 00:55:01,839 --> 00:55:10,800 director. So chemicals is included in that. Would you not agree that that the 600 00:55:08,720 --> 00:55:16,559 chemicals that are manufactured by Vantor in that plant 601 00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:22,960 um would be considered heavy industrial? Certainly that part of the manufacturing 602 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:22,960 process could be considered heavy 603 00:55:30,119 --> 00:55:39,079 industrial. And that's what it says in the memo that is exhibit 8 m 604 00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:54,559 under findings. Under findings does it not state that? Uh let's see. 605 00:55:52,720 --> 00:56:02,000 Yes. Under the second paragraph the land use assembled that that sentence. Yes. 606 00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:07,839 So despite all this language in here under findings and um what you said 607 00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:12,319 about the process which doesn't say anything about chemicals in that part of 608 00:56:10,079 --> 00:56:18,240 it uh just talks about what would be needed in terms of documentation that 609 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:22,960 you you believe that this just applied uh to or that you you believe that that 610 00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:27,839 just applied to the to the chemical plant that's on part of this same park 611 00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:31,440 and it didn't apply to to what you're talking about here with reference to to 612 00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:36,079 the waste that comes from, right? Because the the landfill is so different 613 00:56:33,359 --> 00:56:41,760 in terms of use from the chemical plant. In my mind, they're just two separate 614 00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:46,960 things. Would you say that about the the dock, the loading dock on the chemical 615 00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:51,160 plant? Wouldn't that be a different use from from manufacturing chemicals? It it 616 00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:55,760 could be. I mean, it's kind of an ancillary function. It's not actually 617 00:56:53,599 --> 00:57:00,640 the manufacturing. It's I guess an ancillary function of chemical 618 00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:04,960 manufacturing. So what you're saying to this board is that if you if you 619 00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:09,799 separate out you can separate out certain different parts of the chem 620 00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:14,720 chemical manufacturing uh process the 621 00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:24,240 actual manufacturer of them from from the um the sales from the um um from the 622 00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:28,559 just distribution of of of the chemicals and from the waste that's produced from 623 00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:32,960 the chemicals that that's stored on the site. Yeah, those are all separate. 624 00:57:31,119 --> 00:57:38,160 There's certainly different pieces of the process, but it's still part of of 625 00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:43,760 chemical manufacturing. Would you not say that? 626 00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:43,760 I I'll agree to 627 00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:57,160 that. Um 628 00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:07,520 the pre-application meeting summary that's under exhibit three. 629 00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:13,280 Um that was filled out by Ventor by you, was it not? Correct. 630 00:58:09,839 --> 00:58:19,520 And it's not completely filled in. It it just partially filled. Correct. 631 00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:23,200 Uh, we filled in what we believed to be applicable 632 00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:28,720 and didn't fill in what you didn't believe to be completely. Is that right? 633 00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:31,720 We filled in what we believe to be applicable, 634 00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:41,280 but it wasn't a completed document. It was just submitted with what you felt 635 00:58:38,799 --> 00:58:47,599 like you needed to submit. This document's tough. Um, this is a document 636 00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:51,920 required by the town. Um, and it uh, you know, it's they they're requesting that 637 00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:56,200 the applicants submit them. So, we we fill them out to the best of our ability 638 00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:09,280 and then um, that was actually sent back to you from the town at a later point. 639 00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:15,920 Is that right? Yes. Right. Now, let me uh direct you to your exhibit four. 640 00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:23,119 Um, and these are the emails that went back and forth uh between you and and 641 00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:28,480 Craig Thomas with the town. And I had I mean we could read through them, but 642 00:59:25,359 --> 00:59:34,880 would could you would you believe that that when you got the responses from 643 00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:39,359 Craig that um it appeared to you that he was confused confused about what he 644 00:59:37,599 --> 00:59:45,119 wanted? Um, would that be a fair statement? 645 00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:51,280 I I don't know that he was confused. I think he just was asking for um because 646 00:59:48,799 --> 00:59:55,680 that it's specifically had to comply with that 15 647 00:59:53,559 --> 01:00:01,640 NCAAC13B. I think he was looking for what the requirements were for from that 648 00:59:58,119 --> 01:00:06,799 regulatory statute. But later in these exhibits, didn't you send him the 649 01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:12,240 language because he did not have it? I sent him one one paragraph on this 650 01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:17,680 particular application to that regulatory citation which is um language 651 01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:20,880 that you that you want to be put in the letter. Is that correct? It's language I 652 01:00:19,599 --> 01:00:25,040 thought would comply with the regulation. Yes, that was a state 653 01:00:23,119 --> 01:00:32,319 regulation. It is a state regulation, not a town regulation. Correct. Correct. 654 01:00:27,599 --> 01:00:39,359 And so, um, so for that letter to be prepared, um, uh, the town used your 655 01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:45,400 language, um, that was put in the letter. Yes. Rather than its own 656 01:00:41,200 --> 01:00:45,400 language? Yes. 657 01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:57,040 Would that not indicate to you that that Mr. Thomas was was confused about what 658 01:00:54,480 --> 01:01:00,720 was needed in the letter? I I don't really want to comment. Do I 659 01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:06,079 have to comment on his whether he was confused or not? I I don't know. I was 660 01:01:03,839 --> 01:01:10,400 just trying to provide guidance. If he knew what to do, he could have developed 661 01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:14,319 his own letter without your language. Could he not have? I was providing 662 01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:17,280 guidance on that one regulatory citation. I don't know if he was 663 01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:24,040 confused or not because that's what you need. It is what I needed. It is what we 664 01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:24,040 needed to comply with the regulation. 665 01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:46,559 Now, you you you talked about all this um reliance that you've done on that 666 01:01:43,599 --> 01:01:50,720 letter and um I haven't seen any documentation of any of that. Uh we've 667 01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:55,480 heard what you said that you did all these studies and whatnot. I haven't 668 01:01:52,880 --> 01:02:03,599 seen any of that in your um in your sub submittals. Um and I 669 01:02:00,559 --> 01:02:09,359 would ask you, you've not um started actual work on that site, have you? 670 01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:15,119 No, but that documentation was all submitted to the North Carolina DEEQ in 671 01:02:12,559 --> 01:02:19,200 November of 2023. So, it's public record. It's out there. And in fact, 672 01:02:17,359 --> 01:02:24,839 many of those same engineering drawings were provided to the town. 673 01:02:21,599 --> 01:02:31,200 So we do have it. It is public record. Um so it's out there. What what year do 674 01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:36,079 you say that was? Uh last year 2023. Okay. So it wasn't submitted right after 675 01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:40,880 that letter. No, we had to develop all that was part of the 15 months of work 676 01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:47,280 after we thought we were approved. We did all this engineering work and that 677 01:02:43,119 --> 01:02:52,400 was submitted to the state in November. But not submitted to the town. 678 01:02:50,079 --> 01:02:55,680 No. the engineering drawings came to the 679 01:02:54,160 --> 01:03:00,440 town, but these are documents that are required by uh solid waste. 680 01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:31,920 The letter that you say you're relying on was not written by Mr. Tom Thomas, 681 01:03:27,839 --> 01:03:37,839 was it? I think the signatory was Mr. Leser, was it not? It's exhibit. What 682 01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:41,480 exhibit is that? Six. Six. 683 01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:50,640 He lives to the code enforcement officer for the town. Is that right? Correct. 684 01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:56,880 And and show it. This letter was not written by the planning director for the 685 01:03:53,559 --> 01:04:04,839 town. Um the zoning verification letter was not by the planning director. 686 01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:04,839 Correct. It was signed by Tom Leser. 687 01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:22,839 I think I'm just about finished. 688 01:06:13,039 --> 01:06:20,520 That's all the questions I have. Mr. Chairman, thank you. Does the board have 689 01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:20,520 any questions for 690 01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:44,559 Miss Stein, are you is your operation currently operating under a special use 691 01:06:41,839 --> 01:06:53,400 permit? I believe the an addition to the um 692 01:06:48,720 --> 01:07:02,319 plant made in 2002. Uh the ACQ tank farm was that piece of it. Those are 18 tanks 693 01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:06,880 um and a truck loading area fall under that special use 694 01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:12,559 permit. Other than that, I'm not aware of any for the entire site. 695 01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:16,760 I don't know how that works. So I I don't know. And what about the existing 696 01:07:15,039 --> 01:07:22,079 closed landfill that's there now? So the 697 01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:28,960 existing closed landfill that's there now is there under a Rickra part B 698 01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:35,119 operating permit for postclosure care landfill. But did it have a special use 699 01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:38,680 permit? I don't know. I don't know the answer to that question. 700 01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:44,319 It's deed restricted, but I don't know about the 701 01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:55,280 permitting that was done gosh like in the 80s, 90s. It's been closed for well 702 01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:59,440 over 30 years. So there is no landfill on the property 703 01:07:57,440 --> 01:08:05,599 now? No, it's still there. There's a closed landfill on the site. And so what 704 01:08:01,839 --> 01:08:12,079 are you using today as a landfill? We don't have a landfill on site, an 705 01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:18,480 active landfill. So that closed landfill is not related to the current operation 706 01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:22,880 or the lagoon or the new landfill. It was from a remediation that was done on 707 01:08:20,400 --> 01:08:30,319 site back in the 1980s. So today, your waste goes in the lagoon. 708 01:08:27,359 --> 01:08:35,279 The treated waste water goes into the lagoon. The solids settle to the bottom 709 01:08:33,440 --> 01:08:41,080 of the lagoon and the waters are discharged to the Rocky River under an 710 01:08:37,199 --> 01:08:41,080 NPDS permit. 711 01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:55,319 So, how many solid waste management units are currently on the subject the 712 01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:55,319 site? Yes. 112. 713 01:08:56,719 --> 01:09:03,359 Now, these aren't lagoons, but you asked me about a very specific regulatory 714 01:09:00,719 --> 01:09:09,040 term, which is solid waste management unit, which can be any place that had 715 01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:14,960 you had a chemical stored or you used a chemical. So, all that's documented very 716 01:09:12,480 --> 01:09:21,920 clearly in our Rickra apartment permit and is part of the history of the site. 717 01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:26,159 But um so you can't you can't think about those things in terms of a lagoon 718 01:09:23,679 --> 01:09:34,239 because they're not in terms of those 112 how how many are active? 719 01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:37,679 Um most of them are closed but but some of them are in active production 720 01:09:38,759 --> 01:09:45,920 areas. So I don't want you to get the wrong impression. Solid waste management 721 01:09:42,799 --> 01:09:52,880 unit is anywhere a chemical is really not related to the landfill uh 722 01:09:49,480 --> 01:09:56,960 issue. These are issues related to uh the chemical manufacturing process more 723 01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:10,880 so can you help clarify something for me? I see an a pre-application 724 01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:19,239 conference summary here. Which exhibit? This tab seven submitted 725 01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:19,239 by Michael Thomas. I understand. 726 01:10:20,320 --> 01:10:30,400 I have some confusion because the date on this exhibit says November 1st, 20. 727 01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:33,400 It's 111 2023. Okay. 728 01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:44,719 So he submitted it on the from the email 1112023. 729 01:10:41,679 --> 01:10:47,719 Yeah, I think that went to Craig via email. 730 01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:58,800 Okay. So my So that the date is incorrect on the on the pre-application. 731 01:10:57,280 --> 01:11:06,719 It looks Yeah, it's wrong. It says 11120. Okay. Thank you. Any other 732 01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:11,520 questions now? Just just for the record, sorry, just 733 01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:16,480 for the record, Miss Stein, not everybody knows what RCRA is. If you 734 01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:21,679 could could say what the acronym stands for. Okay, so RCRA is the Resource 735 01:11:19,199 --> 01:11:25,760 Conservation and Recovery Act. It's a part of the 736 01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:31,440 EPA waste regulations. Um, and as I said, the site is regulated 737 01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:37,040 under RCRA because of activities that took place back in the 1980s, 738 01:11:34,679 --> 01:11:40,880 1990s. There were other lagoons on the site. They were cleaned up and 739 01:11:38,280 --> 01:11:44,800 remediated. They were put in a closed landfill, and that's why we have a 740 01:11:42,719 --> 01:11:49,280 permit for a closed landfill on site. So, all that was managed through the 741 01:11:46,239 --> 01:11:53,719 state uh North Carolina DEEQ Solid Waste Management. Thank you. 742 01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:08,679 Thanks. Thank you. You have additional work. I do. I do, Mr. Chairman. I call 743 01:12:05,440 --> 01:12:08,679 Kevin Robinson. 744 01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:24,400 Can you state your name and your address for the record, please, Mr. Rob? Kevin 745 01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:28,880 Robinson, 9905 Larott Court, Huntersville, North Carolina. And do you 746 01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:32,480 work for Ventor Chemicals? I do, Mr. Robinson. And what is your title at 747 01:12:30,159 --> 01:12:36,640 Ventor? I'm the site manager. And have you been involved in Ventor's efforts to 748 01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:44,000 locate the proposed on-site landfill on the property? Yes, since I started in 749 01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:49,280 October of 2022. Yes, I have been. Okay. And as part of that involvement, did you 750 01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:56,840 know about Miss Stein's June 2022 email that we discussed earlier that is behind 751 01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:56,840 tab one of the exhibits? Yes. 752 01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:09,280 And were you part of that analysis where she came up with the question as to 753 01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:14,719 whether the proposed on-site landfill is considered a waste related 754 01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:17,920 use under the town's UDO? I was not. Okay. 755 01:13:16,480 --> 01:13:24,880 And as part of the involvement, did you know about the town's um August 2022 756 01:13:21,120 --> 01:13:28,239 letter responding to the June 2022 email from Miss Stein? I did as I was getting 757 01:13:26,719 --> 01:13:31,920 up to speed on the project after I started. Yes, I I was made aware of 758 01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:35,679 that. Okay. And when did you first learn about that? Approximately. 759 01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:41,760 It would have been soon after I started in October of 22. Okay. So, not too long 760 01:13:39,120 --> 01:13:46,520 after the August letter was sent. That is correct. Okay. And what was your 761 01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:53,440 understanding of that letter um from the town dated August 2022 with regard to to 762 01:13:50,719 --> 01:13:59,040 the zoning interpretation aspect of it? uh that that it was uh a zoning 763 01:13:56,360 --> 01:14:06,400 determination. Um that basically confirmed that uh the proposed on-site 764 01:14:04,159 --> 01:14:14,320 industrial landfill uh met the conditions of other waste related uses 765 01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:14,320 and therefore was permitted on site by 766 01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:29,280 right. Thank you. And in your capacity as site director, it's um 767 01:14:27,280 --> 01:14:32,400 is it fair to say that you're site manager? Excuse me. Is that correct? 768 01:14:31,199 --> 01:14:36,000 Yes. Is it fair to say that you're intimately involved with the project and 769 01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:42,159 how it's going to function on the property as a whole? Yeah, I stay well 770 01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:46,400 informed. Um uh the the eNS staff keep me well informed of the developments and 771 01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:50,880 I I try to attend as many of the the steering committee meetings as I can. If 772 01:14:48,480 --> 01:14:55,840 you could turn to tab two in your book, which is the previously identified 773 01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:58,719 exhibit from the town's UDO defining waste related 774 01:15:04,840 --> 01:15:13,920 use. And if you could um you don't have to read it back into the record there. 775 01:15:11,159 --> 01:15:18,960 Um, but if you recall from Miss Stein's testimony and from exhibit one, that is 776 01:15:17,120 --> 01:15:23,280 in fact the use that Miss Stein was asking the town staff to confirm as to 777 01:15:21,679 --> 01:15:27,920 whether or not the proposed on-site landfill met the definition. Is that 778 01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:32,960 correct to your understanding? Yes, that is correct. Okay. And reading this 779 01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:37,679 definition, does this seem an appropriate definition in your opinion 780 01:15:35,440 --> 01:15:42,600 for the proposed on-site landfill as you understand it? Yes, that was my 781 01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:42,600 understanding. 782 01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:53,120 I'm not sure he has the um ability to testify to that based on the question 783 01:15:49,679 --> 01:15:58,120 that was asked. He's giving a interpretation of the 784 01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:58,120 ordinance. 785 01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:04,800 Based on your familiarity with the project and looking at this definition 786 01:16:02,719 --> 01:16:12,320 as it's before you, is it your opinion that this is a definition that would be 787 01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:19,360 appropriately applied to the use? Yes, that would be my interpretation. 788 01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:23,280 Okay. At the end of the definition there um you'll see there's about five lines 789 01:16:20,960 --> 01:16:27,600 in the definition and there's a provision there that says and other uses 790 01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:32,480 meeting the definition of waste related use according to the director. Do you 791 01:16:29,440 --> 01:16:37,920 see that language? I do. Okay. It would be your understanding therefore that the 792 01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:42,159 town is giving a non-exclusive list of things that are included and that the 793 01:16:40,080 --> 01:16:45,760 director whoever that may be under the ordinance is there to make a 794 01:16:44,000 --> 01:16:52,480 determination as to what uses actually meet the definition of waste related 795 01:16:47,440 --> 01:16:52,480 use. That's how I would interpret that. 796 01:16:53,640 --> 01:16:59,679 Okay. We've heard a little bit about and I don't I don't want to 797 01:16:57,320 --> 01:17:06,800 um preview too much of the testimony here that Mr. Relle will give but um can 798 01:17:03,440 --> 01:17:11,520 you explain very briefly to the board how 799 01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:17,199 the plan proposed on-site landfill will function with regard to the property as 800 01:17:14,800 --> 01:17:21,600 a whole in terms of its purpose and what it's there for. 801 01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:26,239 Yeah, it's really there as we look to reconfigure um the existing lagoon 802 01:17:24,159 --> 01:17:33,679 that's on site. um it's the settling lagoon uh that does allow the sediment 803 01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:37,840 to settle out from the the water on top and then so what we're looking to do is 804 01:17:35,440 --> 01:17:43,520 part of the remediation and reconfiguration of that lagoon is to 805 01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:49,679 remove that sediment um move the burm of the lagoon farther away from the river 806 01:17:47,120 --> 01:17:56,560 um and then be able to relocate those sediment solids uh into the proposed 807 01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:56,560 on-site industrial landfill. 808 01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:08,000 Okay. So, this is a use that is going to receive solid waste only. Is that 809 01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:13,280 correct? Yes. On site solid waste on site solid waste. It won't be receiving 810 01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:19,199 waste from any other property or any other use. That is correct. Okay. And 811 01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:25,280 this is um for the service of shrinking the on-site lagoon to a smaller size and 812 01:18:22,719 --> 01:18:30,199 then housing the sediment at the bottom of the portion of the lagoon that has 813 01:18:27,199 --> 01:18:38,199 been drained. Is that correct? Yes. Okay. If you could turn in your book to 814 01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:44,960 um tab 10, please. And do you know what this 815 01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:51,040 document is, Mr. Robinson? Uh yes. It's a portion of the definitions from the 816 01:18:49,040 --> 01:18:56,480 code of ordinances for the town of Harrisburg. All right. And about 34 of 817 01:18:54,800 --> 01:19:01,199 the way down there, you see the definition of accessory use. Yes. Okay. 818 01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:05,520 Can you read that into the record, please? Accessory use means a 819 01:19:03,440 --> 01:19:09,920 subordinate use of a building or other structure or use of land which is a 820 01:19:08,159 --> 01:19:15,040 conducted on the same lot as the principal use to which it is related and 821 01:19:12,239 --> 01:19:20,159 b clearly incidental to and customarily found in connection with such principal 822 01:19:17,040 --> 01:19:25,760 use. Okay. Thank you. And in your understanding of the proposed on-site 823 01:19:22,679 --> 01:19:30,320 landfill, was it possible that the proposed on-site landfill met this 824 01:19:28,480 --> 01:19:36,320 definition of accessories within the town's UDO? Uh, yes. That could also be 825 01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:41,920 an acceptable interpretation. Um, the the landfill itself is located on the 826 01:19:38,719 --> 01:19:48,400 same lot as the principal use. Um, it is subordinate to that use. Um and and it 827 01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:56,000 is incidental to and customarily found in connection with uh such facilities as 828 01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:59,520 the the Harrisburg venator facility and so so therefore I think from that 829 01:19:57,760 --> 01:20:03,440 definition would also be permitted by right. 830 01:20:01,120 --> 01:20:06,719 Okay. So the accessories and the waste related use that you read earlier the 831 01:20:05,120 --> 01:20:12,600 definition are both permitted as of right on the property. Is that correct? 832 01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:19,800 To my understanding yes. Okay. Um so with those in mind, did you 833 01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:26,880 believe the August 2022 um town letter um did you understand that to 834 01:20:23,640 --> 01:20:33,360 be correct and defensible and therefore binding on you and the town as an 835 01:20:29,440 --> 01:20:33,360 interpretation of the town's UDO? In my 836 01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:38,320 opinion, All 837 01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:54,600 right. Objection sustained. 838 01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:03,760 if you could turn to tab 11 please in your 839 01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:13,120 binder and if you'll read um and it doesn't have to be read into the into 840 01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:16,560 the record again here as Miss Stein did but the definition under there under 841 01:21:14,640 --> 01:21:23,400 heavy industrial do you see that definition Mr. Robinson? Yes. Can you 842 01:21:19,360 --> 01:21:23,400 can you review that to yourself? 843 01:21:25,520 --> 01:21:31,800 Yes. And in your view, based on your 844 01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:36,719 understanding of the proposed on-site landfill, did that meet this definition 845 01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:41,120 of heavy industrial use as defined by the town's UDO? 846 01:21:38,800 --> 01:21:45,239 In my opinion, no. Because the the landfill was objection 847 01:22:07,280 --> 01:22:13,520 Yeah. C can you rephrase the question, please? You're asking a witness to make 848 01:22:10,639 --> 01:22:17,960 a professional judgment. Sure. Based on your understanding of the 849 01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:23,920 proposed on-site landfill, was it your understanding that the use as described 850 01:22:21,520 --> 01:22:28,280 would meet this definition as set forth in the town's UDO for heavy 851 01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:37,120 industrial? Hold up. Hold up, Kevin. You object. You want to object. 852 01:22:32,639 --> 01:22:41,280 I think I will. Um, I think that sort of dealt with part of my objection, but I 853 01:22:39,360 --> 01:22:46,960 think you're still asking him to to make the um uh give an opinion on the 854 01:22:44,320 --> 01:22:52,320 ultimate issue in this case, and I don't think he can do 855 01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:56,920 that. That's for the board to decide. I wouldn't I wouldn't say we're asking for 856 01:22:54,800 --> 01:23:03,800 the ultimate issue. I'd say we're asking if he therefore believed the August 22 857 01:23:00,679 --> 01:23:09,480 letter to be correct and defensible as opposed to clearly off 858 01:23:06,480 --> 01:23:09,480 base. 859 01:23:11,360 --> 01:23:18,400 At the board of adjustment hearings, the rules of evidence are somewhat relaxed, 860 01:23:15,840 --> 01:23:23,120 but since council's present, we need to to hue pretty carefully to the rules. 861 01:23:21,199 --> 01:23:28,000 It's a little awkward because we have for every time there's an objection, we 862 01:23:24,960 --> 01:23:31,920 have to have a consultation. So, you need to give us a 863 01:23:29,400 --> 01:23:34,920 minute. You need to give us a minute, please. 864 01:23:41,950 --> 01:23:45,149 [Music] 865 01:24:10,360 --> 01:24:14,360 Okay. Sorry. 866 01:24:43,159 --> 01:24:50,800 Um, so we'll sustain the objection. We'd like you to consider that the witness 867 01:24:48,320 --> 01:24:55,440 obviously can testify to whether or not uh his opinion on the matter and how he 868 01:24:53,360 --> 01:25:01,040 interprets it, but not to make a determination 869 01:24:56,960 --> 01:25:05,040 um on the the ultimate decision which is this board's 870 01:25:02,719 --> 01:25:09,719 um prerogative. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. 871 01:25:07,639 --> 01:25:15,040 Um then one more Mr. Robinson on this based on your 872 01:25:13,040 --> 01:25:20,239 review uh your understanding of the proposed use and based on your review of 873 01:25:18,159 --> 01:25:25,679 the definitions of waste related services 874 01:25:22,159 --> 01:25:30,280 um basing your definition of accessory use and based on the definition of heavy 875 01:25:27,800 --> 01:25:38,000 industrial. Did you understand the August 2022 determination from the town 876 01:25:34,480 --> 01:25:43,600 to be a determination that the use is in fact permitted by 877 01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:48,040 right under the town's UDL? I did. I did. 878 01:25:52,000 --> 01:26:01,440 All right. And finishing up here, if you could flip to page 879 01:25:57,840 --> 01:26:07,719 uh to tab nine, please um to the previously identified 880 01:26:04,520 --> 01:26:14,040 exhibit by Miss Stein, the November 15th email to Mr. Thomas. Have you seen this 881 01:26:10,239 --> 01:26:14,040 email before? 882 01:26:14,800 --> 01:26:22,320 Yes. Okay. And did you view this as a change from the August 2022 letter from 883 01:26:20,800 --> 01:26:25,679 the town? Yes. 884 01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:28,679 Okay. And how is this a change in your view? 885 01:26:30,320 --> 01:26:36,960 It seemed from the August 2022 zoning determination letter that we received 886 01:26:35,120 --> 01:26:43,360 that we were permitted by Wright to proceed with the design and development 887 01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:48,239 of the project and and this uh seemed to contradict that original determination. 888 01:26:46,080 --> 01:26:53,840 Okay. And had the use changed at all between August 2022 and November of 889 01:26:52,159 --> 01:26:57,560 2023? No, it had not. 890 01:27:00,960 --> 01:27:10,960 That's all I have, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, your witness. Thank you. 891 01:27:06,600 --> 01:27:15,760 Um, Mr. Robinson, I think you stated that you're the site manager. Yes, sir. 892 01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:23,679 That that's your title? It is. And can you tell me what your job duties are? 893 01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:30,159 They involve a number of of different things including overseeing the the 894 01:27:27,600 --> 01:27:34,239 environmental health and safety program, overseeing the the production, the 895 01:27:32,320 --> 01:27:39,600 chemical production manufacturing that we do on site. Um managing all of the 896 01:27:37,040 --> 01:27:44,239 personnel, um the managers who report to me, and then those who who report down 897 01:27:41,840 --> 01:27:49,840 in the reporting structure. So as site manager are would it be fair 898 01:27:47,600 --> 01:27:57,760 to say that you're the person in charge of this plant here? Yes sir. In in 899 01:27:53,679 --> 01:28:02,239 charge of all P. Yes sir. So when you're speaking of the site we're talking about 900 01:27:59,520 --> 01:28:07,639 the whole 100 acre. That is correct. The entire property. 901 01:28:05,840 --> 01:28:12,400 So that would include the chemical manufacturing. That would include 902 01:28:10,159 --> 01:28:17,080 anything that goes on with reference to that business on that site. Yes, that's 903 01:28:14,880 --> 01:28:26,480 correct. They're in charge of Yes. And so so would you consider um um your dock 904 01:28:23,120 --> 01:28:30,480 to be accessory use to your chemical plant? I I do think it's an accessory 905 01:28:29,120 --> 01:28:36,000 use. Yes. So you would um you would say that you 906 01:28:33,679 --> 01:28:41,679 you that that could be permitted by right um on that site if you made a 907 01:28:39,760 --> 01:28:47,040 change to your your dock. It would not require a special use permit. That 908 01:28:43,760 --> 01:28:52,560 right? I I would review the zoning, but I mean and and maybe even ask the town 909 01:28:49,760 --> 01:28:56,159 for clarification, but I mean I would I would think that would be the case, but 910 01:28:54,159 --> 01:29:02,880 we would still ask the town for a determination to provide that. 911 01:28:58,800 --> 01:29:09,440 So, um what about the um the waste water that's in the lagoon? That's part of the 912 01:29:05,520 --> 01:29:13,600 of the chemical manufacturing process and what you do with your waste, is it 913 01:29:11,440 --> 01:29:18,159 not? Well, it's part of the wastewater treatment process that we have on site. 914 01:29:15,600 --> 01:29:25,199 Yes. So, wastewater treatment, you consider that a um accessory use? I do. 915 01:29:21,520 --> 01:29:30,239 Yes. So, anything that's not exactly the manufacturer of chemical that you would 916 01:29:27,360 --> 01:29:35,120 consider accessory use to a chemical manufactured plant. Is that what you're 917 01:29:32,239 --> 01:29:39,360 saying? Yes. And where do you find support for that 918 01:29:36,719 --> 01:29:42,800 in the in the ordinance? Uh, let me find 919 01:29:44,120 --> 01:29:50,480 the which exhibit is the definition? Uh, it's 10. 920 01:29:50,520 --> 01:29:55,560 Kevin, if that's the one you're looking for. 921 01:29:55,600 --> 01:30:03,440 Yeah. So, for accessory use, uh, means a subordinate use of a building or other 922 01:30:01,199 --> 01:30:07,679 structure or use of land which is conducted on the same lot as the 923 01:30:05,040 --> 01:30:12,000 principal use and clearly incidental to and customarily found in connection with 924 01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:15,360 such principal use. So, I think that pretty clearly defines that anything 925 01:30:13,600 --> 01:30:18,400 like that could be an accessory use. That's what you believe. That is 926 01:30:17,040 --> 01:30:23,920 correct. And um what is your background in 927 01:30:20,719 --> 01:30:28,639 dealing with zoning matters? Uh I have been not involved in a whole lot of 928 01:30:26,800 --> 01:30:31,639 zoning matters but a few here and there. Yes. 929 01:30:32,639 --> 01:30:39,800 So have you had any experience with interpreting zoning ordinances? 930 01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:48,400 I have since I've been here since November of 2022. October. Yes sir. 931 01:30:47,040 --> 01:30:53,120 Basically what you're talking about is this situation. That's that's correct. 932 01:30:50,960 --> 01:30:58,080 And so that's really been your first experience with having to interpret 933 01:30:55,400 --> 01:31:02,520 ordinances zoning or I had one previous but it was it's my second. Yes. 934 01:31:14,320 --> 01:31:26,400 You say that you well, excuse um did you start with Ventor in November 2022? 935 01:31:23,080 --> 01:31:31,440 October 2022. You've not been with with them prior to 936 01:31:28,639 --> 01:31:38,400 that or with chemical specialty? Correct. Uh did you ever once you took 937 01:31:34,880 --> 01:31:44,239 over do an investigation of of the zoning with reference to that property 938 01:31:40,719 --> 01:31:50,320 prior to this in uh matter involving uh this lagoon that you looked at 939 01:31:47,520 --> 01:31:54,880 specifically as part of this project? Yes. But if you if you're talking about 940 01:31:52,480 --> 01:31:58,560 outside of this project, no. Okay. Well, that's what I'm asking you about. It's 941 01:31:56,000 --> 01:32:05,880 outside of this project. No. Chemical plant's been there for a long time, has 942 01:32:00,159 --> 01:32:05,880 it not? Uh maybe 60 years. 943 01:32:06,480 --> 01:32:15,040 And are you aware of of any of the interactions between the town and and 944 01:32:12,400 --> 01:32:19,280 the occupier of that property with reference to zoning during that 60 945 01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:22,320 years? What had gone on prior to the time you became involved with the 946 01:32:21,360 --> 01:32:27,199 company? The only one that I'm familiar with is 947 01:32:24,719 --> 01:32:33,600 the one from when the tank farm was put in put in place with a um I'll forget it 948 01:32:32,000 --> 01:32:38,960 wasn't called a special use permit. It was the uh other definition back then, 949 01:32:37,120 --> 01:32:44,960 but but yeah, that one was conditional use permit. Thank you. And would that 950 01:32:41,920 --> 01:32:50,560 not be considered an accessory use of the property? 951 01:32:46,880 --> 01:32:54,960 Uh I'm not sure about that. It it sounds like from what you said the 952 01:32:52,800 --> 01:32:59,360 definition was from what you read in in the ordinance that that would be another 953 01:32:57,199 --> 01:33:02,639 use that's connected with the chemical manufacturing 954 01:33:01,040 --> 01:33:08,719 would be an accessory use but it required a special use permit right? Uh 955 01:33:05,760 --> 01:33:12,239 no I didn't say that. I'm saying do you not agree with me? Is that not the same 956 01:33:10,800 --> 01:33:16,239 thing as what you were talking about earlier? I don't think it is because the 957 01:33:14,080 --> 01:33:19,760 the storage tanks are actually part of the chemical process. 958 01:33:24,480 --> 01:33:31,120 So where is the chemical process stop and the accessory uses start in your 959 01:33:29,600 --> 01:33:36,400 opinion? I think it would be objection. He's not 960 01:33:33,840 --> 01:33:39,760 qualified to testify to how the ordinance would make a distinction 961 01:33:37,679 --> 01:33:43,920 between those two things. We've done a lot of testifying to it up to this 962 01:33:41,280 --> 01:33:43,920 point, 963 01:33:44,120 --> 01:33:47,120 but 964 01:33:53,639 --> 01:34:01,000 Objection overruled. Please answer. Can you repeat the question? 965 01:34:02,400 --> 01:34:12,560 I'm trying to determine whether um at what point something becomes an 966 01:34:07,920 --> 01:34:20,000 accessory use um under the ordinance um uh on this property. Um and you said 967 01:34:16,239 --> 01:34:25,760 that basically, you know, anything that was um that was connected with it that 968 01:34:22,880 --> 01:34:31,120 wasn't exactly chemical manufacturing would be an accessory use. But yet these 969 01:34:28,480 --> 01:34:36,719 storage tanks that deal, they're not part of the processing. They're part of 970 01:34:34,000 --> 01:34:41,120 the storage, are they not? Wouldn't that be an accessory use? 971 01:34:39,360 --> 01:34:48,800 Somebody might could interpret it that way. And it required a special use 972 01:34:44,760 --> 01:34:53,280 permit, didn't it? At the time, it required a conditional 973 01:34:50,480 --> 01:34:58,159 use permit. Well, conditional use permit, the statute just changed the the 974 01:34:55,760 --> 01:35:04,560 name of it to special use permit, but it's the same thing. Do you understand 975 01:35:00,159 --> 01:35:07,679 that? I have not seen the exact document that says that the conditional use 976 01:35:06,080 --> 01:35:15,520 permit was changed to special use permit. Well, it's in chapter 160D of 977 01:35:12,159 --> 01:35:23,280 the North Carolina general statutes, but you can ask your lawyer about that part. 978 01:35:20,000 --> 01:35:32,320 And what about um don't you all have a a rail spur? Yes, we do. And um didn't you 979 01:35:28,880 --> 01:35:37,199 also have a parking lot expansion um that as part of that special use 980 01:35:34,560 --> 01:35:42,960 permit? I'm not familiar with that piece of it. Well, that was in March of 981 01:35:40,440 --> 01:35:49,280 2002. That was part of the special this conditional use permit at that time, was 982 01:35:45,280 --> 01:35:52,480 it not? I I don't know. I thought you I thought I understood that you said you 983 01:35:50,560 --> 01:35:57,719 went back and looked at this. I did, but I don't recall seeing anything regarding 984 01:35:54,159 --> 01:35:57,719 a parking lot. 985 01:36:17,520 --> 01:36:24,480 I think that's all the questions I have questions from the 986 01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:37,960 board. Going off of the uh accessory use string here, 987 01:36:33,800 --> 01:36:42,639 if the retention or the solid waste disposal was not on site, would that 988 01:36:41,040 --> 01:36:46,400 chemical production be able to take place? Would you have to come up with a 989 01:36:44,159 --> 01:36:48,719 different strategy for how to finish that 990 01:36:50,600 --> 01:37:00,320 process? If I'm just strictly speaking about the chemical process itself, no. 991 01:36:58,159 --> 01:37:05,560 uh we would just have to find alternate ways to handle the the waste. 992 01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:23,360 So, it could be done without adding this this P or this this 993 01:37:24,040 --> 01:37:33,719 dump. If I'm strictly answering the question if it could physically be done, 994 01:37:30,000 --> 01:37:33,719 the answer is yes. 995 01:37:49,920 --> 01:37:56,560 And you may know the answer to this. I think the proposed landfill is a 996 01:37:53,920 --> 01:38:01,440 concrete lined landfill. The existing one's just a sediment pond. Is there any 997 01:37:58,520 --> 01:38:07,920 reason in your professional experience that that new solid waste disposal site 998 01:38:04,320 --> 01:38:13,800 would have to be concrete lined? Uh it I would have to defer Janna as 999 01:38:11,920 --> 01:38:18,880 actually the person who knows the details so we can ask him when he's up 1000 01:38:15,840 --> 01:38:22,040 here. Okay. Yeah, sure. Thank you. 1001 01:38:28,800 --> 01:38:32,440 Thank you, Mr. Robinson. 1002 01:38:32,480 --> 01:38:40,119 You have additional witnesses. I do, Mr. Chairman. I'll call Dave Wala to stand, 1003 01:38:37,119 --> 01:38:40,119 please. 1004 01:38:45,119 --> 01:38:52,000 You state your name and your address for the record, Mr. Michelle? Yeah. David 1005 01:38:48,400 --> 01:38:56,000 Wella. I live at 317 Brexom Place, Fork Mill, South Carolina. 1006 01:38:54,560 --> 01:39:02,360 Thank you, Miss Michelle. By whom are you employed? Erm, environmental 1007 01:38:58,560 --> 01:39:06,639 resources management solid office. Sorry. And what are your 1008 01:39:04,000 --> 01:39:11,920 responsibilities at ERM? Uh, serve as senior engineer and also technical 1009 01:39:08,840 --> 01:39:16,159 advisor for primarily solid waste related projects. Have you been involved 1010 01:39:14,000 --> 01:39:20,560 in Ventor's efforts to locate the on-site landfill that we're talking 1011 01:39:18,320 --> 01:39:23,760 about tonight? Yes, I have. And what um and in what ways have you been involved, 1012 01:39:21,840 --> 01:39:30,800 Mr. Rashella? Generally speaking, generally speaking, we started 2017 2018 1013 01:39:27,840 --> 01:39:35,440 assisting Benur in number one evaluating the waste that we currently have on site 1014 01:39:32,960 --> 01:39:39,520 and the best ways to to manage that waste. Uh we went through several 1015 01:39:37,679 --> 01:39:44,320 different scenarios. We looked at transporting offsite. Uh, one candidate 1016 01:39:42,639 --> 01:39:49,280 was Charlotte Motor Speedway landfill, which I I know everybody here is 1017 01:39:46,080 --> 01:39:54,719 familiar with. Um, they were looking at it as a possibility of daily cover for 1018 01:39:52,320 --> 01:39:59,600 their waste. We actually got DEEQ approval to run a pilot demonstration 1019 01:39:56,719 --> 01:40:04,480 project. Uh, Republic ended up not wanting to use it as an alternate daily 1020 01:40:02,000 --> 01:40:10,239 cover, so that option went away. We looked at dewatering and sediment tubes 1021 01:40:07,280 --> 01:40:14,880 or geo tubes which you know you take the sediment and let it naturally dewater 1022 01:40:12,080 --> 01:40:20,639 and then haul it off site. Uh that ended up not being very coste effective for us 1023 01:40:17,679 --> 01:40:25,199 to manage. And then additionally other transport off sites were a lot of 1024 01:40:23,520 --> 01:40:30,480 landfills in this area are going to be out of airspace you know within 10 to 15 1025 01:40:28,400 --> 01:40:35,840 years. So it really wouldn't be a long-term solution to haul off site. So 1026 01:40:33,280 --> 01:40:40,800 after we evaluated how the material or the sediments that we have on site 1027 01:40:37,960 --> 01:40:46,000 behaved, the ability to manage it and be able to dry them out and dispose of it 1028 01:40:42,719 --> 01:40:51,760 as a solid waste and do it onsite and manage our own destiny longterm on site 1029 01:40:49,600 --> 01:40:55,639 and know it's done the right way was the appropriate way to go. 1030 01:40:55,840 --> 01:41:02,639 And can you describe the proposed on-site landfill? Um, and specifically 1031 01:41:00,719 --> 01:41:07,040 why we're putting this landfill on this property, why Ventor is putting this 1032 01:41:04,880 --> 01:41:11,119 landfill on this property, and how it's going to function on the property in a 1033 01:41:09,440 --> 01:41:16,719 little more detailed than than we've heard tonight, but but saving anything 1034 01:41:14,480 --> 01:41:20,320 too detailed for a special use permit should that be necessary. I tell you 1035 01:41:18,480 --> 01:41:24,880 what, I I'll cover it in general, and if you have any follow-up questions about 1036 01:41:21,679 --> 01:41:29,679 the detail, feel free to ask afterwards. Um the on-site landfill is being number 1037 01:41:27,760 --> 01:41:36,560 one located where it is because it is very close proximity to our existing 1038 01:41:33,040 --> 01:41:41,520 Lagoon 5. Uh Lagoon 5 sits on, you know, very close proximity to the Rocky River. 1039 01:41:39,679 --> 01:41:47,679 The landfill is essentially being developed because the bigger, you know, 1040 01:41:44,239 --> 01:41:52,880 fish to fry on site is Lagoon 5, which has been in operation since sometimes in 1041 01:41:49,920 --> 01:41:57,679 in the 70s and has functioned well and served its purpose. But you can imagine 1042 01:41:55,040 --> 01:42:03,840 just a tiny bit of sediments over 50 years adds up. We're getting to the 1043 01:42:00,639 --> 01:42:08,880 point of a capacity issue in the near-term future and we need to do 1044 01:42:06,000 --> 01:42:12,560 something to clean the pond out. That initially started the need for the 1045 01:42:10,560 --> 01:42:18,560 on-site landfill. How to manage those sediments we clean out and be able to 1046 01:42:15,040 --> 01:42:23,000 manage them effectively. Number two is the existing lagoon is unlined. It it 1047 01:42:21,360 --> 01:42:29,040 was built in the 70s. regulations. Um, let's just say not as 1048 01:42:26,480 --> 01:42:35,360 stringent as today's. And we see an opportunity to install a liner system in 1049 01:42:32,080 --> 01:42:40,320 the new Lagoon and still continue to use it as our wastewater treatment receiving 1050 01:42:37,840 --> 01:42:44,159 lagoon for the facility, but install a highdensity polyethylene liner, same 1051 01:42:42,320 --> 01:42:48,880 liner system you see in all your municipal solid waste landfills 1052 01:42:46,239 --> 01:42:54,239 throughout the country. uh that is where it will have a concrete liner on top of 1053 01:42:51,119 --> 01:42:58,719 that liner system for protection. Uh the industrial landfill that will initially 1054 01:42:56,600 --> 01:43:04,360 receive and just to put it in perspective about 30,000 to 35,000 cubic 1055 01:43:01,840 --> 01:43:10,119 yards of sediments out of the existing lagoon. So it it's a good chunk that has 1056 01:43:08,000 --> 01:43:15,199 to be dealt with. It will have a liner system, you know, including a 1057 01:43:12,400 --> 01:43:19,119 highdensity polyethylene liner as well. I didn't want to cut him off, but I am 1058 01:43:17,360 --> 01:43:23,880 going to object. I don't think any of this testimony is relevant to the issue 1059 01:43:21,440 --> 01:43:29,119 that's before this morning tonight. I think that's more in line 1060 01:43:26,800 --> 01:43:35,480 with any hearing we may have on a special use permit and what the park 1061 01:43:31,520 --> 01:43:35,480 project is about. 1062 01:43:56,320 --> 01:44:00,440 Um, objection sustained. 1063 01:44:01,760 --> 01:44:07,360 Okay. Mr. Mr. Roshell, have you worked on the 1064 01:44:05,280 --> 01:44:12,040 design and construction of on-site landfills for other industrial uses? 1065 01:44:09,760 --> 01:44:21,199 Yes, I have. Okay. And approximately how many ballpark? Uh 1066 01:44:16,679 --> 01:44:24,760 ballpark probably 10 to 12 for different industries. Um 1067 01:44:23,520 --> 01:44:31,199 uh battery manufacturers, fiberglass manufacturers 1068 01:44:27,760 --> 01:44:35,920 and pulp and paper industry. Okay. And your and power industry of course. Power 1069 01:44:33,639 --> 01:44:40,480 industry. In your experience, are on-site landfills like the one proposed 1070 01:44:38,719 --> 01:44:44,880 customarily found in connection with industrial uses such as Venitrous 1071 01:44:42,880 --> 01:44:49,280 Chemical Plant? Yes, they are quite common place and uh we see them 1072 01:44:47,119 --> 01:44:54,080 throughout the Carolinas. I would say you can consider it to be common place 1073 01:44:51,840 --> 01:44:59,520 even further because North Carolina has a separate set of regulations just for 1074 01:44:57,119 --> 01:45:07,080 onsite industrial landfills that only receive waste generated on site. Okay. 1075 01:45:03,400 --> 01:45:12,040 Um, can you turn to tab one very quickly, which is exhibit one? 1076 01:45:13,360 --> 01:45:19,920 It's the June 2022 email from Miss Stein. Yes. Sent to the town staff and 1077 01:45:18,480 --> 01:45:26,400 you're copied on that email. Is that correct? 1078 01:45:22,880 --> 01:45:26,400 Yes. Okay. 1079 01:45:27,400 --> 01:45:37,280 Um, in your experience working on on-site landfills and other 1080 01:45:32,159 --> 01:45:41,040 jurisdictions, is zoning a part of um of the construction process or at least 1081 01:45:39,520 --> 01:45:45,280 with regard to the development process of those on-site landfills? I would say 1082 01:45:43,360 --> 01:45:51,840 it's more fair to say it's one of the first steps in the permitting process 1083 01:45:47,760 --> 01:45:56,080 for the majority of the landfill types. Is that is that why you're on this 1084 01:45:53,360 --> 01:46:01,760 email? because this is this is at the outset more or less of this process. I 1085 01:45:58,800 --> 01:46:07,440 know you mentioned 2017, but is this is this part of that that zoning process 1086 01:46:05,440 --> 01:46:11,920 that you mentioned with regard to on-site landfills? Yes, that would be 1087 01:46:09,679 --> 01:46:17,040 correct. Okay. And it's your understanding that this email is sent 1088 01:46:13,600 --> 01:46:22,679 because town codes can be confusing. They can be broad. They can 1089 01:46:18,840 --> 01:46:27,440 overlap. And so a property owner or an engineer like 1090 01:46:24,600 --> 01:46:32,880 yourself might want to seek confirmation from a jurisdiction as to how the zoning 1091 01:46:30,960 --> 01:46:37,679 process is going to play out with regard to the proposed use. 1092 01:46:35,360 --> 01:46:43,760 Yes, that is standard practice. Okay. And is this email in your view that's 1093 01:46:40,480 --> 01:46:49,199 standard practice in written form? Yes, I would agree. Okay. 1094 01:46:47,040 --> 01:46:52,199 I have nothing further, Mr. Chair. Thank you. 1095 01:46:56,520 --> 01:47:06,719 Um I'm trying to make sure I pronounce your name correctly. Thank you. Thanks 1096 01:47:02,320 --> 01:47:11,040 for having me. Um Mr. Marella, um dealing with this owning is not part of 1097 01:47:08,719 --> 01:47:15,280 what your job means. No sir, not 1098 01:47:12,600 --> 01:47:21,520 primarily. And did I understand you to say that that with reference to dealing 1099 01:47:18,239 --> 01:47:26,080 with the waste on for this project or for this property and this chemical 1100 01:47:24,159 --> 01:47:30,960 plant, you'd gone through several different ways to try to deal with it. 1101 01:47:28,639 --> 01:47:36,360 Is that right? Different options were considered. And so this has been going 1102 01:47:32,239 --> 01:47:42,320 on for a long time prior to 2020. Is that correct? Uh for evaluating 1103 01:47:40,239 --> 01:47:48,000 the best ways to approach the project. Yes. 1104 01:47:43,840 --> 01:47:52,880 And as you said, zoning becomes an issue at the very start with reference to what 1105 01:47:50,880 --> 01:48:00,719 kind of project you're going going to propose, does it not? It does for site 1106 01:47:56,639 --> 01:48:06,280 suitability requirements for a landfill. So if you were going to do something on 1107 01:48:02,880 --> 01:48:12,560 site, you would have to consider the zoning. Is that correct? Uh depending on 1108 01:48:09,679 --> 01:48:18,880 the activity chosen. Yes. So, so there had been quite a bit of of 1109 01:48:16,480 --> 01:48:23,920 activity with reference to what ultimately became the project you 1110 01:48:20,880 --> 01:48:28,080 settled on prior to this project being the one that you settled. Is that 1111 01:48:25,840 --> 01:48:32,639 correct? Uh, yes. There was consideration of the other options, the 1112 01:48:30,480 --> 01:48:37,840 ones that you described earlier. Yeah, those weren't all too. I was just given 1113 01:48:35,600 --> 01:48:42,719 four. So, how long have you been working on this? 1114 01:48:39,280 --> 01:48:45,960 Well, I believe we started 2017 2018 time frame. 1115 01:48:46,000 --> 01:48:54,840 That's all the questions I have. That's all the questions I have. Okay. 1116 01:48:51,040 --> 01:48:54,840 Questions from the board. 1117 01:48:57,679 --> 01:49:07,040 So, the U vtor was given several options to pick from and this is the one they 1118 01:49:03,840 --> 01:49:13,280 chose. Well, I I would rephrase that not to pick from. We were working with 1119 01:49:09,679 --> 01:49:21,679 Ventor throughout the process. U kind of we worked with a corporate person out of 1120 01:49:17,080 --> 01:49:25,280 England as well as the folks on site to because the people on site have to deal 1121 01:49:23,280 --> 01:49:29,199 with the waste every day. So, it's only correct to have them involved in the 1122 01:49:26,960 --> 01:49:34,800 process as well. So, you know, and just bounce ideas off of each other. We we 1123 01:49:32,080 --> 01:49:38,159 coined the phrase optionering was what we were doing is we were trying to 1124 01:49:36,320 --> 01:49:43,520 figure out the different avenues we could follow. 1125 01:49:40,600 --> 01:49:48,480 And how much did cost come into the decision? 1126 01:49:45,040 --> 01:49:54,560 uh cost. Actually, the one on the table wasn't the cheapest, but uh the one that 1127 01:49:51,840 --> 01:49:59,040 we were really hoping for was that Charlotte Motor Speedway could use these 1128 01:49:56,719 --> 01:50:04,960 sediments as alternative daily cover for their waste, but that also, like I said, 1129 01:50:02,560 --> 01:50:09,520 we're starting with 30 to 35,000 cubic yards of material in the lagoon that 1130 01:50:07,280 --> 01:50:15,440 needs to come out so we can reconstruct the lagoon. That would have put about 1131 01:50:12,000 --> 01:50:19,520 three to 4 thousand trucks on the road leaving the facility and going to the 1132 01:50:17,360 --> 01:50:24,679 landfill non-stop for three to four months, which nobody wanted either. 1133 01:50:30,159 --> 01:50:37,119 Um, are you a a professional engineer in the state of North Carolina? Yes, and I 1134 01:50:35,199 --> 01:50:42,840 am professional engineer licensed in North Carolina, South Carolina, and 1135 01:50:38,960 --> 01:50:48,719 Arkansas. And were you hired by Benur to review the zoning and those 1136 01:50:46,000 --> 01:50:55,360 items or just investigate the processing of the waste? 1137 01:50:51,080 --> 01:50:59,600 Um my role is to review the state regulations for the permitting of the 1138 01:50:57,280 --> 01:51:05,520 landfill. Part of that in the site suitability requirements is to receive a 1139 01:51:02,320 --> 01:51:11,679 letter from that's why I advised Jon Stein to use that specific language from 1140 01:51:08,520 --> 01:51:17,280 NCDEQ regulations to make sure we were meeting the requirements of the solid 1141 01:51:14,159 --> 01:51:23,199 waste permit needed. So you so you were hired to review the 1142 01:51:19,679 --> 01:51:30,000 applicability of the what what to advise not to advise. Yeah. Okay. 1143 01:51:26,560 --> 01:51:33,400 Um it it seems like you are more since you are a PE and this is what you do 1144 01:51:31,760 --> 01:51:37,679 that you would be more you would be the person to be 1145 01:51:35,760 --> 01:51:42,520 answering this questions. Why was it decided for Miss Stein to submit the 1146 01:51:40,199 --> 01:51:48,239 applications and generate all these emails if you were hired for that 1147 01:51:45,400 --> 01:51:56,639 role for the clarification in the letter we needed from Harrisburg 1148 01:51:51,520 --> 01:52:01,000 to submit our permit application? Yeah, that's why we were making the request. 1149 01:52:01,040 --> 01:52:08,199 I'm a little confused. You were hired to review the zoning of the property to 1150 01:52:04,960 --> 01:52:14,320 make sure it worked. No. Okay. I'm sorry. No. One of our application for 1151 01:52:12,080 --> 01:52:19,119 permit requirements is to receive a letter from the town of Harrisburg since 1152 01:52:16,480 --> 01:52:23,520 you're the local municipality government where the property is located. So I 1153 01:52:21,440 --> 01:52:29,520 reach out to Janna and say we need to get this letter from town of Harrisburg. 1154 01:52:26,560 --> 01:52:35,320 Okay. And this is the permit requirement or the regulation requirement we need to 1155 01:52:31,599 --> 01:52:41,760 meet. So you did not independently evaluate the uses as per the attachment 1156 01:52:38,880 --> 01:52:47,360 as as part of exhibit A. I reviewed it in the sense that I found 1157 01:52:43,840 --> 01:52:53,920 out there was a UDO adopted not too long ago before we started this process and I 1158 01:52:50,880 --> 01:52:58,880 did look at the different uses. Uh I was quite surprised that I'd never heard of 1159 01:52:56,560 --> 01:53:04,400 employment center before. I do remember reading that part and finding a chemical 1160 01:53:01,920 --> 01:53:11,119 manufacturing facility is employment center. I remember that seemed odd to 1161 01:53:06,960 --> 01:53:15,040 me. So I I did review it. I mean this is you know, some time ago now. So, I'm 1162 01:53:13,119 --> 01:53:20,719 trying to remember specifics, but I do remember asking Janna to get our 1163 01:53:17,440 --> 01:53:25,440 specific language included in a letter from the town so we can meet the state 1164 01:53:23,360 --> 01:53:30,679 requirements as part of the letter. As part of the letter. Okay. But you did 1165 01:53:27,199 --> 01:53:35,440 not independently evaluate whether the zoning was permitted, for instance, by 1166 01:53:33,520 --> 01:53:39,520 right or required a special use permit and didn't communicate that to Benur. 1167 01:53:37,920 --> 01:53:44,080 I'm trying to understand your Oh, from what I read. Yes. Yeah. And I did review 1168 01:53:41,920 --> 01:53:51,040 it, it it seemed it was permitted by right when I looked at permitting an 1169 01:53:47,040 --> 01:53:57,280 industrial landfill on site and that was you communicated that to 1170 01:53:53,199 --> 01:54:01,520 your client. Yes. But I enforced that we still needed the letter confirming that 1171 01:53:59,520 --> 01:54:06,560 from the town of Harrison. So your goal was to achieve the letter and that was 1172 01:54:03,679 --> 01:54:08,880 about it. Yes. I live in that permitting world. 1173 01:54:09,159 --> 01:54:13,480 Okay. Other questions? 1174 01:54:14,960 --> 01:54:21,840 Do you have any more witnesses? I do not, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Um 5 to 8. 1175 01:54:20,159 --> 01:54:27,440 Oh, sorry, sir. Thank you very much. Okay. Thank you. Um 5 to 8. Um I think 1176 01:54:25,280 --> 01:54:34,159 what we'll do is take probably a 5 to 10 minute recess. Um, and then we'll come 1177 01:54:30,480 --> 01:54:38,239 back and the staff will present and then they will have an opportunity to 1178 01:54:35,599 --> 01:54:42,719 cross-examine staff. Um, any other witness testimony that's uh necessary. 1179 01:54:40,800 --> 01:54:47,599 Um, obviously you both will have an opportunity for a rebuttal. Um, and then 1180 01:54:45,280 --> 01:54:51,040 we'll basically turn it over. We'll close the evidentiary portion of the 1181 01:54:49,280 --> 01:54:54,560 hearing and then the board will go through some finding of facts. Um, and 1182 01:54:53,119 --> 01:55:01,360 then we'll get to the end of this thing. So, um, if there's a motion to take a 1183 01:54:57,440 --> 01:55:07,639 short recess, I'd appreciate it. Motion. Second. Second. All in favor? 10 1184 01:55:04,239 --> 01:55:07,639 minutes, everyone. 1185 01:55:21,159 --> 01:55:25,159 I'm talking 1186 01:55:39,440 --> 01:55:42,840 But you're right. 1187 01:56:00,239 --> 01:56:06,639 I was reading it just so that he um that didn't show 1188 01:56:16,400 --> 01:56:19,560 That's good. 1189 01:56:34,320 --> 01:56:37,040 So that should have 1190 01:56:42,599 --> 01:56:46,599 been this 1191 01:56:48,760 --> 01:56:53,239 and for other people, 1192 01:57:03,599 --> 01:57:06,599 right? 1193 01:57:24,080 --> 01:57:26,480 If you don't 1194 01:57:40,599 --> 01:57:43,760 understand the 1195 01:57:50,000 --> 01:57:57,800 In our one of our training sessions, they talked 1196 01:57:53,080 --> 01:57:57,800 about what we come up with. 1197 01:58:13,920 --> 01:58:20,719 This doesn't break determin 1198 01:58:17,840 --> 01:58:20,719 seems much But 1199 01:58:24,280 --> 01:58:27,280 nobody 1200 01:58:35,400 --> 01:58:38,880 that's what I would 1201 01:58:52,400 --> 01:58:57,040 said public comments about the 1202 01:59:03,960 --> 01:59:10,679 chest for varianiral damage. the after will be there. 1203 01:59:20,159 --> 01:59:25,599 Yeah, they can talk 1204 01:59:31,880 --> 01:59:38,040 about a good idea. Stand up. 1205 01:59:44,239 --> 01:59:49,430 Stand up. [Music] 1206 01:59:55,280 --> 01:59:59,239 Well, we want to just 1207 02:00:21,840 --> 02:00:26,000 They've been all around the block. I'm gonna actually zero in 1208 02:00:39,639 --> 02:00:43,599 on I think 1209 02:00:48,679 --> 02:00:52,679 idle neighbors. 1210 02:01:14,880 --> 02:01:18,199 Are you sir? 1211 02:01:25,920 --> 02:01:33,040 Open up. Open up. 1212 02:01:30,480 --> 02:01:40,400 Be sure and cover that. Yeah, just, you know, in in the final analysis, they've 1213 02:01:35,440 --> 02:01:40,400 got to mention there was an error in 1214 02:01:46,679 --> 02:01:50,239 termination. Exactly. 1215 02:02:13,840 --> 02:02:17,560 Well, that's what we're doing. 1216 02:02:24,880 --> 02:02:27,920 Yeah, you can go 1217 02:02:31,639 --> 02:02:34,639 back 1218 02:02:44,599 --> 02:02:52,599 to typically the administrator. Yeah, that's right. 1219 02:02:56,440 --> 02:03:00,679 Usually the garage. 1220 02:03:13,760 --> 02:03:18,199 There was some degree of 1221 02:03:18,639 --> 02:03:22,199 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 1222 02:03:38,159 --> 02:03:44,320 Yeah. Exactly. And so you 1223 02:03:45,480 --> 02:03:48,960 know that makes 1224 02:03:51,800 --> 02:03:56,119 sense at some point 1225 02:04:06,320 --> 02:04:08,480 That 1226 02:04:27,239 --> 02:04:32,960 wax trace this park 1227 02:04:47,199 --> 02:04:52,679 Uh, he put a battery in it. Okay. 1228 02:05:16,280 --> 02:05:25,599 establish you can testify to 1229 02:05:22,199 --> 02:05:29,320 your I'm not going to when you question them. 1230 02:05:38,560 --> 02:05:44,199 Interesting. Well, you know, you certainly can do that. 1231 02:05:47,119 --> 02:05:49,280 Will 1232 02:05:51,560 --> 02:05:55,560 be good. 1233 02:06:08,780 --> 02:06:11,930 [Music] 1234 02:06:16,320 --> 02:06:22,040 Oh, cool. Cool. I was thinking just the opposite. 1235 02:06:24,400 --> 02:06:29,040 Well, I was thinking that I've been 1236 02:06:47,239 --> 02:06:53,360 told that was 1237 02:06:53,599 --> 02:06:57,400 I see a lot of brown 1238 02:07:15,199 --> 02:07:19,480 just enough make sure they 1239 02:07:23,920 --> 02:07:29,159 But you but you need to make sure that you pick 1240 02:07:30,639 --> 02:07:37,119 Yeah. So that [Music] 1241 02:07:34,960 --> 02:07:42,119 a couple of highlighters. Ran out of ink. Ran out of ink. 1242 02:07:50,480 --> 02:07:57,560 Um, are we recording? Yes, you're good. Okay, we'll reconvene. 1243 02:07:57,679 --> 02:08:05,840 Um, at this time, the, uh, town staff will give their presentation. 1244 02:08:03,440 --> 02:08:10,079 Good evening, uh, board members. My name is Zach Cordon. I'm the planning 1245 02:08:07,760 --> 02:08:16,480 director for the town of Harrisburg, uh, since October of 1246 02:08:12,679 --> 02:08:21,199 2022. Uh prior to that I have 30 plus exp 30 plus years experience um in 1247 02:08:19,440 --> 02:08:24,599 varying capacities including planning director for the town city of 1248 02:08:22,560 --> 02:08:27,599 Canapapolis prior to Harrisburg. 1249 02:08:28,040 --> 02:08:34,480 Um let me just run through this quickly. I want to I don't want to belabor the 1250 02:08:32,800 --> 02:08:38,719 point. I want to get right to the to the fact of the matter. 1251 02:08:36,800 --> 02:08:44,239 So, it's already been pointed out there was a conditional use permit granted um 1252 02:08:41,520 --> 02:08:49,119 to by the town to chemical specialties for additional storage tanks, rail spur, 1253 02:08:46,960 --> 02:08:53,119 and parking lot expansion. A lot of discussion about this being an accessory 1254 02:08:51,040 --> 02:09:00,400 use. I'd like to just read from the order that was uh granted uh back in 1255 02:08:57,040 --> 02:09:06,960 2002. This was a unanimous vote. 50 conditional use permit granted. uh order 1256 02:09:03,119 --> 02:09:10,840 was uh 25th day of March 2002. It is the board's conclusion that the proposed 1257 02:09:08,400 --> 02:09:15,920 construction of the 1825,500galon storage tanks, a railroad 1258 02:09:13,679 --> 02:09:20,079 spur to the proposed tank location and additional parking area will meet the 1259 02:09:17,599 --> 02:09:24,079 requirements of the unified development ordinance that has been adopted by the 1260 02:09:22,000 --> 02:09:27,599 town of Harrisburg. In addition, the conditions set forth by this board that 1261 02:09:25,679 --> 02:09:31,679 did a study by the Cabaris County Planning Department concerning the needs 1262 02:09:29,280 --> 02:09:36,040 for an access turn lane at chemical specialties on Farm Mill Road and the 1263 02:09:34,320 --> 02:09:41,199 need for additional screening and or buffering. Um, and I won't get into the 1264 02:09:38,719 --> 02:09:48,000 findings of fact, but um just to to point out that um this was a significant 1265 02:09:44,800 --> 02:09:53,280 um addition um and I certainly would not characterize it as accessory. Uh 1266 02:09:50,400 --> 02:09:59,520 accessory uses are typically those uses uh which are do not require the approval 1267 02:09:56,239 --> 02:10:03,840 of either this board or legislative body but they are uh administrative in 1268 02:10:01,520 --> 02:10:10,639 nature. Think of a garage or swimming pool or even a small uh cooler on the 1269 02:10:07,199 --> 02:10:15,360 side of a restaurant. So, in spring 2022, uh there was a 1270 02:10:13,840 --> 02:10:19,360 pre-application meeting which you've already heard about uh with Ventor for 1271 02:10:17,440 --> 02:10:26,239 proposed industrial landfill on the site. Um you've heard about the letter 1272 02:10:22,560 --> 02:10:34,480 August 19, 2022 from the uh code enforcement officer Tom Leser uh to Jon 1273 02:10:29,679 --> 02:10:40,159 Stein um from with Ventor Chemicals uh regarding um and I will get into this a 1274 02:10:37,280 --> 02:10:46,000 lot more uh the proposed uh use for the site. Um following the preapp meeting uh 1275 02:10:43,920 --> 02:10:53,520 there was a follow-up meeting uh with the town that Ventor uh with Ventor to 1276 02:10:48,880 --> 02:11:00,560 discuss the uh proposed um use and that is a um uh a use that we're still 1277 02:10:57,679 --> 02:11:07,679 processing and I will point this out um well let me wait till my next slide um 1278 02:11:03,840 --> 02:11:11,520 and so uh October uh we we did provide some additional guidance on site plan 1279 02:11:09,760 --> 02:11:16,719 approval process um in November, November 2nd, there was 1280 02:11:14,320 --> 02:11:22,639 a summary of a pre-application meeting and uh in that um pre-application 1281 02:11:19,760 --> 02:11:28,920 summary um the findings were very clearly that a special use permit was 1282 02:11:25,000 --> 02:11:33,760 required. Um that was very clear. Uh, November 15, uh, Shelley Deart, 1283 02:11:31,760 --> 02:11:37,920 assistant plan director, sends an email to Michael Thomas reiterating the need 1284 02:11:36,400 --> 02:11:45,560 for a special use permit for the proposed industrial landfill by Ventor 1285 02:11:41,000 --> 02:11:53,520 Chemicals. Uh, November 15, um, yes, I'm sorry, that's a a repeat. 1286 02:11:49,800 --> 02:12:00,920 Um December 1st, special use permit submitted uh by the applicant by Ventor 1287 02:11:57,199 --> 02:12:06,320 for the proposed uh industrial landfill. December 15, uh Ventor submits 1288 02:12:04,560 --> 02:12:10,800 an appeal of an administrative decision by town staff that the special use 1289 02:12:08,480 --> 02:12:15,480 permit was required for the proposed industrial landfill. And that's why 1290 02:12:12,239 --> 02:12:15,480 we're here. 1291 02:12:15,679 --> 02:12:22,719 So, I'm going to focus on the appeal, and I'm going to focus on 1292 02:12:19,639 --> 02:12:27,199 the allegations in the appeal. You've seen this uh visual. This is the site 1293 02:12:24,960 --> 02:12:32,639 map. You can see the location of the proposed industrial landfill uh in the 1294 02:12:29,920 --> 02:12:36,960 site. And you've heard uh testimony about the process for that. And I'm not 1295 02:12:34,400 --> 02:12:44,440 going to go over that. I think that's um something that would be uh the the 1296 02:12:39,440 --> 02:12:44,440 subject uh of a special use permit. 1297 02:12:45,199 --> 02:12:53,199 So, let's get right to the application points of appeal. The August 19 zoning 1298 02:12:50,880 --> 02:12:59,199 verification letter approves the landfill use. That essentially is what 1299 02:12:56,000 --> 02:13:03,840 the representation in the application is stating. 1300 02:13:01,119 --> 02:13:09,599 The appeal application states this quote zoning verification letter issued August 1301 02:13:06,159 --> 02:13:13,280 19, 2022 represents quote a final and binding interpretation of the town's 1302 02:13:11,360 --> 02:13:17,280 laws that the proposed on-site industrial landfill is permitted as of 1303 02:13:15,199 --> 02:13:22,320 right on the property and does not require a special use permit. A pretty 1304 02:13:20,159 --> 02:13:27,679 definitive statement that from you or from that is from them. 1305 02:13:25,440 --> 02:13:31,440 That is their application. uh that's drawn exact that's drawn from their 1306 02:13:29,280 --> 02:13:35,440 their appeal application. That's their that's their 1307 02:13:33,159 --> 02:13:39,159 representation. Our response is that the zoning verification letter does not 1308 02:13:37,199 --> 02:13:42,560 indicate a special use permit is not required. You can read that letter over 1309 02:13:41,360 --> 02:13:47,040 and over. You're not going to find anything in this letter that indicates a 1310 02:13:45,280 --> 02:13:52,480 special use permit is not required. Number 1311 02:13:48,760 --> 02:13:57,280 one, the letter does state any proposed use must secure all appropriate and 1312 02:13:54,719 --> 02:14:04,320 necessary approval from all regulatory agencies for which the parcel is 1313 02:14:00,920 --> 02:14:08,960 located. As noted, staff advised Benitor on November 2nd and November 15th of the 1314 02:14:07,280 --> 02:14:13,840 need for a special use permit for the proposed industrial landfill. 1315 02:14:11,520 --> 02:14:18,719 Letter further notes the property is governed by the rules and regulations of 1316 02:14:15,679 --> 02:14:23,119 the Harrisburg Unified Development Ordinance. I think that's important to 1317 02:14:20,960 --> 02:14:23,119 point 1318 02:14:26,440 --> 02:14:34,000 out. Let me continue. Neither of these statements in 1319 02:14:31,840 --> 02:14:39,520 the August 19 letter that that I just quoted from represent that a special use 1320 02:14:36,159 --> 02:14:44,560 permit is not required. Statement in the letter that is made 1321 02:14:42,800 --> 02:14:48,000 that the property conforms to all requirements of the Harrisburg Unified 1322 02:14:46,400 --> 02:14:51,679 Development Ordinance refers to the current not the future use of the 1323 02:14:50,000 --> 02:14:56,960 property as there were no final approvals granted by the town for site 1324 02:14:54,199 --> 02:15:01,679 development. So that was a snapshot zoning verifications letter which this 1325 02:14:59,040 --> 02:15:09,360 was essentially will tell you whether the proposed or the use that you have 1326 02:15:04,639 --> 02:15:15,760 planned or will do uh is allowed. Um, and so the the statement in the letter 1327 02:15:13,119 --> 02:15:20,239 that indicates the current zoning is an approved zoning class for the proposed 1328 02:15:17,760 --> 02:15:25,119 on-site industrial landfill. That's a true statement subject to a special use 1329 02:15:22,800 --> 02:15:28,960 permit. And as I already said, u there is a requirement that you meet all the 1330 02:15:26,639 --> 02:15:32,960 rules and regulations for the town of Harrisburg per the UDO. In addition, I 1331 02:15:32,000 --> 02:15:37,040 would just point out that an administrative officer is not empowered 1332 02:15:34,719 --> 02:15:43,360 to wave a requirement in this case for a special use permit of the town's unified 1333 02:15:39,280 --> 02:15:43,360 development ordinance. Doesn't have that 1334 02:15:44,920 --> 02:15:53,840 right. The other representation uh that was made in the uh appeal application is 1335 02:15:51,760 --> 02:15:58,800 that the November 15th email determination for a special use permit 1336 02:15:56,239 --> 02:16:04,320 is erroneous. So, if you look up the word erroneous, 1337 02:16:01,280 --> 02:16:09,920 that means wrong or an error. Very important. I want you to remember 1338 02:16:06,599 --> 02:16:14,960 that the appeal application states the proposed on-site industrial landfill is 1339 02:16:12,000 --> 02:16:20,320 not a heavy industrial use. That's a pretty definitive statement. Our 1340 02:16:18,079 --> 02:16:24,560 response is that within the EC zoning district, every industrial uses within 1341 02:16:22,159 --> 02:16:29,840 the EC zoning districts require a special use permit in accordance with 1342 02:16:26,960 --> 02:16:29,840 section 1343 02:16:33,080 --> 02:16:36,080 140406D. 1344 02:16:37,399 --> 02:16:44,319 Now, the applicants claim that the proposed industrial use is not heavy 1345 02:16:42,080 --> 02:16:47,920 industrial. uh staff would refer the board to the definition for 1346 02:16:45,639 --> 02:16:53,200 heavy-industrial found within the UDO. And I'm just going to read a portion of 1347 02:16:49,800 --> 02:16:58,080 this. Heavy industrial means a use category containing uses engaged in the 1348 02:16:55,639 --> 02:17:02,000 manufacturing, assembly, or processing of 1349 02:16:59,559 --> 02:17:06,319 chemicals. Factory production in industrial yards are located here. I'm 1350 02:17:05,120 --> 02:17:11,840 not going to go through the rest of the uses. The key word there is 1351 02:17:09,319 --> 02:17:16,800 chemicals. Based on this definition, the proposed landfill is a heavy industrial 1352 02:17:13,519 --> 02:17:25,040 use, which is why the determination was made that a special use permit is 1353 02:17:20,920 --> 02:17:29,519 required. This is the U table of uses uh table 1402022 1354 02:17:27,599 --> 02:17:33,200 uh permitted uses by non-residential mixeduse zoning district. And you can 1355 02:17:31,120 --> 02:17:38,160 see that I've circled heavy industrial uses. You can see that for the EC zone 1356 02:17:35,599 --> 02:17:44,240 is permitted by special use permit. and you see the reference to the uh 1357 02:17:41,120 --> 02:17:49,120 applicable section of the um ordinance where you would process that special use 1358 02:17:50,920 --> 02:17:58,399 permit. Second point that that I would make or that was 1359 02:17:55,760 --> 02:18:03,280 made in the application is that the um follow up to the to to to what I just 1360 02:18:00,719 --> 02:18:09,920 shared that the email determination uh is erroneous. Um and it goes on to say 1361 02:18:06,880 --> 02:18:17,319 that the proposed industrial landfill is either a light industrial use or a waste 1362 02:18:14,000 --> 02:18:24,719 related use both which are permitted by right. Okay. So my job as the planning 1363 02:18:22,160 --> 02:18:29,679 director and our job as a staff for the town is to apply the zoning ordinance 1364 02:18:26,880 --> 02:18:33,679 the UDO to interpret the ordinance to read the 1365 02:18:31,240 --> 02:18:38,479 ordinance. So let's look at what light industrial says. Light industrial means 1366 02:18:36,080 --> 02:18:42,880 a use category containing uses engaged in the manufacturing, assembly or 1367 02:18:40,319 --> 02:18:46,319 processing of industrial business or consumer goods usually from basic 1368 02:18:44,559 --> 02:18:50,800 finished input such as metal, stone, glass, plastic or rubber contractors and 1369 02:18:49,439 --> 02:18:55,760 building maintenance services and similar uses. Perform services offsite. 1370 02:18:54,080 --> 02:19:00,240 Few customers, especially the general public, come to the site. You'll notice 1371 02:18:58,000 --> 02:19:05,040 that there's one word missing uh from this description and that is the word 1372 02:19:02,000 --> 02:19:05,040 chemical or 1373 02:19:10,840 --> 02:19:18,479 chemicals. Let's pick up the second part of the representation. Proposed on-site 1374 02:19:16,399 --> 02:19:23,519 industrial landfill is either a light industrial use or a waste related use 1375 02:19:21,519 --> 02:19:27,679 both of which are permuted by rights. So let's look at the waste related use. A 1376 02:19:25,359 --> 02:19:33,519 lot of discussion about what a waste related use is. Let's look at what the 1377 02:19:30,479 --> 02:19:38,679 ordinance says it is. Waste related use means a use category containing 1378 02:19:36,080 --> 02:19:43,880 establishments that receive very important word that 1379 02:19:41,040 --> 02:19:48,240 receives solid or liquid waste from others. Other is a very another 1380 02:19:46,000 --> 02:19:53,280 important word for treatment or transfer to another location and uses that 1381 02:19:51,120 --> 02:19:56,200 manufacture or produce goods or energy for the large scale composting of 1382 02:19:54,960 --> 02:20:01,920 organic material by the uh testimony and 1383 02:19:59,040 --> 02:20:10,720 representations of the u of the council for the applicant as as well as the uh 1384 02:20:05,439 --> 02:20:17,520 um the witnesses. Um there is no receipt of solid or liquid waste from others and 1385 02:20:15,439 --> 02:20:26,000 uh it is not being transferred anywhere else. It is staying on the site. So uh 1386 02:20:22,399 --> 02:20:30,560 waste related use means the proposed industrial landfill would have to be 1387 02:20:28,160 --> 02:20:34,479 receiving something from outside and that is not the case. Proposed 1388 02:20:32,640 --> 02:20:39,280 industrial landfill would not qualify as a waste related use since it would not 1389 02:20:37,040 --> 02:20:45,520 receive solid or liquid waste from others for treatment or transfer to 1390 02:20:42,960 --> 02:20:50,160 another location. Ventor's appeal is based on two 1391 02:20:47,160 --> 02:20:55,920 arguments that the August 19, 2022 letter from Tom Leser to Jon Stein 1392 02:20:52,399 --> 02:21:03,080 approves the proposed landfill use. And second, the November 15, 2023 email um 1393 02:21:00,160 --> 02:21:09,280 regarding industrial landfill use incorrectly or erroneously as the 1394 02:21:06,000 --> 02:21:14,960 applicant's um application reads is classified as a heavy industrial use and 1395 02:21:12,960 --> 02:21:19,000 that the use is allowed by right as either light industrial or a waste 1396 02:21:17,840 --> 02:21:25,600 related use. And so again, in summary, our 1397 02:21:22,319 --> 02:21:29,600 response is that the 8/1922 letter neither approved proposed industrial 1398 02:21:27,439 --> 02:21:34,920 landfill use nor relieve the applicant from the requirement for heavy 1399 02:21:31,280 --> 02:21:39,760 industrial use to obtain a special use permit. Second, an administrative 1400 02:21:37,439 --> 02:21:44,240 officer for the town cannot unilaterally wave a UDL requirement. In this case, 1401 02:21:42,399 --> 02:21:49,920 the requirement for a special use permit. 1402 02:21:45,920 --> 02:21:54,560 With respect to the 11:15 uh 23 email, UDO definition clearly identifies the 1403 02:21:52,160 --> 02:21:59,359 proposed industrial landfill as a quote heavy industrial 1404 02:21:56,120 --> 02:22:03,120 use as it is involved in the processing of 1405 02:22:01,160 --> 02:22:07,359 chemicals. The argument that the proposed industrial landfill is a use 1406 02:22:05,120 --> 02:22:12,399 permitted by right because it is either light industrial or waste related use is 1407 02:22:09,760 --> 02:22:16,319 also not supported by the definitions for these uses. And these are the 1408 02:22:14,000 --> 02:22:20,560 definitions that we refer to for this use for any use that comes before 1409 02:22:20,600 --> 02:22:26,560 us. In conclusion, based on the facts that we 1410 02:22:24,880 --> 02:22:30,960 presented, town staff believes the termination of the requirement for a 1411 02:22:28,080 --> 02:22:35,160 special use permit was properly made is consistent with the UDO and should 1412 02:22:32,399 --> 02:22:40,120 therefore be upheld by the board of adjustment. I'm available for questions. 1413 02:22:44,560 --> 02:22:52,160 Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to ask our staff member questions, but but yeah, he 1414 02:22:50,160 --> 02:22:56,520 certainly he can be example. I don't have any questions on boss, Mr. 1415 02:22:53,520 --> 02:22:56,520 Chairman. 1416 02:22:57,280 --> 02:23:08,319 Okay. Does the board have any questions? I have one. 1417 02:23:04,000 --> 02:23:13,920 Did I hear y'all say that Bentor did submit a special use permit in December? 1418 02:23:11,200 --> 02:23:13,920 Yes. 1419 02:23:16,359 --> 02:23:25,720 Okay. On that permit application, did they was there a space or did they 1420 02:23:21,359 --> 02:23:31,319 indicate what the use was? The the Well, the use was for the for 1421 02:23:28,479 --> 02:23:35,439 the prop the industrial land use. Um that was But did they have to 1422 02:23:33,520 --> 02:23:39,200 indicate the zoning classification? In other words, light industrial waste, 1423 02:23:37,600 --> 02:23:42,720 heavy I don't recall. You don't 1424 02:23:45,160 --> 02:23:53,600 recall. This um property is currently under a special use permit that was 1425 02:23:51,439 --> 02:23:56,760 previously known as a conditional use permit. Yes. 1426 02:23:55,840 --> 02:24:03,479 on the original March, I think you said, of 1427 02:24:00,280 --> 02:24:08,800 2022, did that application indicate whether it was heavy industrial 1428 02:24:10,600 --> 02:24:13,920 waste or 1429 02:24:15,880 --> 02:24:21,560 otherwise. I'm just pulling it up right now. 1430 02:24:52,160 --> 02:24:59,520 The application indicates only that the current zoning 1431 02:24:56,399 --> 02:25:03,439 classification at the time was I1 which is light 1432 02:25:00,920 --> 02:25:09,280 industrial. the existing land use is manufacturer of industrial inorganic 1433 02:25:05,560 --> 02:25:12,479 chemicals. Okay. And that that was it. That's all that we we got. And then of 1434 02:25:10,960 --> 02:25:17,760 course the storage tanks, the railroad spur, and the parking lot expansion were 1435 02:25:15,120 --> 02:25:23,479 all part of that. And you were not the director at the time? No, that was 2010. 1436 02:25:21,439 --> 02:25:31,520 And the UDO was rewritten and adopted when? August 2021. 1437 02:25:28,960 --> 02:25:35,080 prior to any of this taking place. Correct. Okay. 1438 02:25:35,840 --> 02:25:45,680 So, Tom Leser was an administrative officer. Tom Leser is a code enforcement 1439 02:25:42,160 --> 02:25:54,399 officer for the for the town. So, at the time of the August 19th, 2022 1440 02:25:51,399 --> 02:25:59,960 letter, he was authorized to write this letter. 1441 02:25:56,520 --> 02:26:04,479 Tom will write zoning verification letters. 1442 02:26:02,040 --> 02:26:11,840 Um, in looking at this zoning verification letter, again, I think that 1443 02:26:08,399 --> 02:26:18,160 in at least to me, it's very clear that uh this is a fairly pro-formal letter. 1444 02:26:15,840 --> 02:26:23,680 Um, it tells you who the owner is, the location, the zoning. It tells you, uh, 1445 02:26:21,600 --> 02:26:29,319 whether the conditional use overlay, are there any special exemptions, not a 1446 02:26:26,479 --> 02:26:34,080 special exception, um, are there any violations, is it located within the 1447 02:26:31,520 --> 02:26:42,640 town's limits, what are the abuing uses, any violations, etc., etc. Um, again, 1448 02:26:38,960 --> 02:26:50,960 this letter essentially is a snapshot of the site. This letter is not a uh an 1449 02:26:48,200 --> 02:26:58,560 approval. Um it is in effect an administrative assessment of the of the 1450 02:26:53,880 --> 02:27:05,280 use current. And at this point or or at that point um again I pointed out I 1451 02:27:01,760 --> 02:27:10,640 think several mention uh references to compliance with rules and regulations of 1452 02:27:07,680 --> 02:27:16,000 the town of Harrisburg. So the applicant is not absolved uh from those 1453 02:27:12,840 --> 02:27:23,040 requirements and um again we are processing that application as we speak. 1454 02:27:19,600 --> 02:27:28,880 I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around the current zoning is an 1455 02:27:26,080 --> 02:27:34,240 approved zoning class for proposed on-site industrial landfill. I mean if 1456 02:27:32,000 --> 02:27:37,720 somebody tells me that I'm going to go build a landfill. 1457 02:27:38,160 --> 02:27:46,479 Why? Why wouldn't I? Who Who was authorized to tell this 1458 02:27:43,200 --> 02:27:50,560 company they can build this landfill? Yeah. And and again, in my in my mind, 1459 02:27:48,640 --> 02:27:54,640 this statement, Kurd zoning is an approved zoning class for the proposed 1460 02:27:52,080 --> 02:28:00,160 on-site industrial landfill. That's a true statement. However, there's also a 1461 02:27:57,359 --> 02:28:06,800 requirement for a special use permit for a heavy industrial use. And that is the 1462 02:28:02,880 --> 02:28:11,920 point that um I think is is critical. uh this there were no nothing in this 1463 02:28:08,720 --> 02:28:16,880 letter which um said that a special use permit was not required and that the the 1464 02:28:14,319 --> 02:28:23,439 use could proceed. As a matter of fact um this this um particular uh letter 1465 02:28:20,880 --> 02:28:29,040 would have to be followed up by at least a site plan approval. You could do 1466 02:28:26,399 --> 02:28:34,960 nothing without that. Um, I would also point out that um, to our knowledge, 1467 02:28:32,240 --> 02:28:42,399 there still has not been any site suitability approval granted for this 1468 02:28:37,319 --> 02:28:49,960 site. And I suspect that may be because the special use permit um is 1469 02:28:46,439 --> 02:28:58,240 the piece of evidence that they require ultimately, not an administrative 1470 02:28:52,640 --> 02:29:02,240 statement that is eligible for a use potentially. I'll object to that 1471 02:29:00,560 --> 02:29:06,600 statement at the end, Mr. Chairman, as being um as being speculative. 1472 02:29:39,200 --> 02:29:45,080 Um could we ask you to clarify what you meant 1473 02:29:42,840 --> 02:29:56,160 by what DEEQ? Sure. So, um, DEEQ and again the 1474 02:29:52,240 --> 02:29:59,880 letter references the U applicable code uh 15A 1475 02:29:58,200 --> 02:30:06,560 NCAC13B 0504. Um, DEEQ requires the local 1476 02:30:05,040 --> 02:30:11,120 government. It's somewhat of a chicken egg situation. They want to know that 1477 02:30:09,040 --> 02:30:14,479 you're going to approve it before they approve it. um because they don't want 1478 02:30:12,880 --> 02:30:18,000 to approve something that requires an approval that would if you don't grant 1479 02:30:16,160 --> 02:30:24,399 it would be a moot point and they go through all their uh process. 1480 02:30:20,840 --> 02:30:29,120 Um but at the outset what the state requires is uh and and they make this 1481 02:30:27,160 --> 02:30:34,960 determination whether the site is suitable for the proposed use in this 1482 02:30:31,439 --> 02:30:38,960 case an industrial landfill. Um, again, to my knowledge, that site suitability 1483 02:30:37,200 --> 02:30:42,880 has not been granted, and I didn't hear anything tonight that says it has been 1484 02:30:40,880 --> 02:30:50,359 granted. Uh, and without that sight suitability um um determination, there 1485 02:30:47,520 --> 02:30:56,359 is no permit. That that that's a precursor to the granting of a permit 1486 02:30:53,200 --> 02:31:03,040 for the use that's being proposed. That's it. So, it is a state 1487 02:31:00,800 --> 02:31:10,840 process. So, how complete do you 1488 02:31:06,520 --> 02:31:16,319 consider the August 19th letter of consistency that the town's code 1489 02:31:13,040 --> 02:31:21,399 enforcement officer Tom Leser sent out? How complete do you consider that given 1490 02:31:19,680 --> 02:31:26,960 that you've stated that that that line on the top of 1491 02:31:25,040 --> 02:31:32,000 second page the current zoning is an approved zoning class for the proposed 1492 02:31:29,200 --> 02:31:38,040 on-site industrial landfill and you stated subject 1493 02:31:33,880 --> 02:31:43,880 to an SUP. How complete is is this letter? Is it misleading? 1494 02:31:42,280 --> 02:31:48,120 So the the statement that it's an approved 1495 02:31:46,720 --> 02:31:56,120 zoning class would mean that the EC zone would 1496 02:31:53,439 --> 02:32:05,760 be a zoning class for which you could conduct a certain use. Um, again, 1497 02:32:01,200 --> 02:32:12,080 it it is it is in my mind uh conspicuous by its absence that 1498 02:32:09,520 --> 02:32:15,479 there's no mention about a need for a special use permit or no need for a 1499 02:32:14,240 --> 02:32:20,399 special use permit. And 1500 02:32:17,640 --> 02:32:25,280 so this is why we've been processing this again since November. We let the 1501 02:32:23,760 --> 02:32:30,399 applicant know that. We made the determination. They submitted an 1502 02:32:26,800 --> 02:32:35,520 application. Um and uh we're proceeding with the review of the special use 1503 02:32:32,479 --> 02:32:43,280 permit and we're that's underway uh as we speak. Um but the um as far as the 1504 02:32:39,680 --> 02:32:49,920 the zone um again I think the um the the the representation was that uh this 1505 02:32:46,240 --> 02:32:56,000 letter was uh in part uh crafted uh by the applicant and and I would say that 1506 02:32:52,479 --> 02:33:01,920 um it was probably inartfully done um because that is not a 1507 02:32:58,600 --> 02:33:06,479 um this statement should not be you should not read into this statement that 1508 02:33:04,080 --> 02:33:10,640 anything you wanted to do then would be admiss permissible under that uh in that 1509 02:33:09,600 --> 02:33:17,520 statement. That's a pretty broad statement. Uh certainly not um a um an 1510 02:33:14,319 --> 02:33:23,800 accessory use that would involve uh the placement of a industrial landfill on a 1511 02:33:20,640 --> 02:33:29,760 site. So is that is it safe to say that a landfill is a permitted use but 1512 02:33:27,840 --> 02:33:33,600 requires a special use permit in order to be constructed? 1513 02:33:31,920 --> 02:33:37,080 That that's basically what you're explaining, right? So that's what that's 1514 02:33:34,960 --> 02:33:41,840 what table 1402-2 describes is that it is a 1515 02:33:40,319 --> 02:33:45,920 permitted use. It's not a prohibited use. It's not prohibited or permitted 1516 02:33:44,080 --> 02:33:50,720 with limitations, but it does require a special use permit in order to be 1517 02:33:47,520 --> 02:33:55,040 constructed. Yes. Okay. Before we get too far away, you had an objection and 1518 02:33:52,479 --> 02:34:00,319 we need to make sure we deal with that. So your objection to his statement about 1519 02:33:56,960 --> 02:34:04,479 the restatement of the answer cleaned up the issue about which I was objecting 1520 02:34:02,240 --> 02:34:09,840 which is the speculation about why the state has not approved the site's 1521 02:34:08,000 --> 02:34:13,040 suitability. Okay. So you're satisfied with the clarification. I'm cl I'm 1522 02:34:11,280 --> 02:34:19,760 sorry. Yes. Yes. With the clarification. The first answer no. But yes. Thank you. 1523 02:34:17,600 --> 02:34:25,560 So can I put a hypothetical out there to try to distill this a little bit? Um, 1524 02:34:22,160 --> 02:34:32,640 let's say someone came to you and said, "Um, I want to build a 1525 02:34:29,439 --> 02:34:37,880 uh a house on my property." And you went and looked at the table and you said, 1526 02:34:34,640 --> 02:34:43,200 "Um, well, it's zoned residential." Um, and you and they said, 1527 02:34:41,200 --> 02:34:47,520 "Well, I need a letter from my bank saying before they'll loan me money for 1528 02:34:45,439 --> 02:34:51,760 this property that I can put a house on this property." Right. And if they asked 1529 02:34:50,000 --> 02:34:57,120 you for that letter, you would produce a similar letter to 1530 02:34:53,240 --> 02:35:03,680 this, I would expect. Yes, we we would produce a similar letter. Um, obviously 1531 02:35:00,880 --> 02:35:12,439 the the facts would be different, but um yes, we would we would make a a a 1532 02:35:07,160 --> 02:35:19,640 determination and address the uh either approval or it not being uh approved or 1533 02:35:16,399 --> 02:35:25,760 appropriate for that zone. And I think it would be 1534 02:35:22,600 --> 02:35:30,560 unreasonable to say, however, you can't build right up to the property line. It 1535 02:35:27,840 --> 02:35:36,040 can't be 10 stories tall. It has to have egress openings in every bedroom on down 1536 02:35:33,920 --> 02:35:41,040 the line for everything that the code requires. Just that a house can be built 1537 02:35:38,880 --> 02:35:45,200 on that property, you must follow everything 1538 02:35:42,120 --> 02:35:52,160 else. Yes. So the the the permit would be issued uh by us and all our permits 1539 02:35:50,000 --> 02:35:57,280 specifically for homes would then be subject to the regulations of the 1540 02:35:54,560 --> 02:36:02,720 Cabaris County Building Department which would then be um managed by them at that 1541 02:36:04,680 --> 02:36:09,319 point. But there's a process 1542 02:36:16,640 --> 02:36:24,000 Is it standard operating procedure for staff 1543 02:36:21,240 --> 02:36:30,160 to request that applicants or their representatives dictate what they want 1544 02:36:26,640 --> 02:36:35,520 to see in a letter in terms of an approval or such situation as we have 1545 02:36:32,800 --> 02:36:43,120 here with the uh former employee for the town. So, let me address that this way. 1546 02:36:40,000 --> 02:36:49,640 Um, I became playing director in October of 1547 02:36:45,479 --> 02:36:58,040 2022. The letter that you're referring to August 19 was prior to my becoming 1548 02:36:56,000 --> 02:37:02,800 the full-time planning director for the town. 1549 02:36:59,640 --> 02:37:08,560 Um, there was an interim period. Uh during that interim period I was a uh an 1550 02:37:06,080 --> 02:37:15,240 employee of another firm and I was providing services to the town. Um in 1551 02:37:11,600 --> 02:37:19,760 that capacity um it was primarily maintenance and making sure that 1552 02:37:18,240 --> 02:37:27,200 everything was being processed accordingly. Um when I became planning 1553 02:37:23,200 --> 02:37:33,680 director, um the process and the procedures uh were reviewed and I can 1554 02:37:30,960 --> 02:37:38,800 tell you that at this point in time, we would not request guidance from an 1555 02:37:36,399 --> 02:37:43,000 applicant as to how we should write our zoning clearance letter. 1556 02:37:56,399 --> 02:38:05,600 other questions. Is is there a standard format 1557 02:38:01,760 --> 02:38:10,359 when you from your perspective of course when you're making a final determination 1558 02:38:08,399 --> 02:38:14,560 as far as zoning is there is there a standard letter other than this letter 1559 02:38:12,800 --> 02:38:20,960 consistency that we're looking at that's like okay I'm director this is it this 1560 02:38:18,240 --> 02:38:26,399 is the final ruling this is my final interpretation is there a standard 1561 02:38:22,960 --> 02:38:30,720 letter of some sort well other than this consistency type and I don't I don't 1562 02:38:28,160 --> 02:38:38,240 have a standard form, but we we do use a standard form letter U that would insert 1563 02:38:34,160 --> 02:38:45,280 you as appropriate whatever um the uh what whatever would be the appropriate 1564 02:38:40,160 --> 02:38:51,880 um um approval or language for that use. Um and um again the these letters are 1565 02:38:48,880 --> 02:38:58,399 issued for everything from u mortgage companies, title searches, 1566 02:38:54,880 --> 02:39:01,600 um you know, someone who is uh perhaps doing a due diligence search of a 1567 02:39:00,319 --> 02:39:07,319 property, want to know if there's any violations, 1568 02:39:03,120 --> 02:39:12,000 um confirming zoning. Uh so this is a fairly routine uh matter, but yeah, 1569 02:39:10,000 --> 02:39:16,720 every letter can be different. Um there's, you know, that there's there's 1570 02:39:13,600 --> 02:39:20,399 really not uh uh not not too many that are exactly the same. They're all 1571 02:39:18,399 --> 02:39:27,120 different. So, and when you receive a 1572 02:39:22,840 --> 02:39:34,640 pre-application meeting um such as exhibit three, which I believe the uh 1573 02:39:32,120 --> 02:39:39,080 applicant completes and it was mentioned 1574 02:39:36,359 --> 02:39:44,600 that conditional use permit was not checked. The box was not checked, right? 1575 02:39:46,120 --> 02:39:55,319 Um, do you expect this document to be like pristine and thorough with every 1576 02:39:52,240 --> 02:40:00,399 box checked and it's just uh almost like a final product or is 1577 02:39:58,000 --> 02:40:04,479 this something that's somewhat breathing and living 1578 02:40:01,640 --> 02:40:08,319 and you you guys meet together, you make changes as 1579 02:40:06,280 --> 02:40:12,560 necessary or do you take in consideration there may be an oversight 1580 02:40:10,080 --> 02:40:15,760 something left off that maybe should have been there or maybe the applicant 1581 02:40:13,920 --> 02:40:21,359 didn't know what how do you expect to see this pre-application meeting summary 1582 02:40:17,680 --> 02:40:30,960 in terms of its completeness accuracy right so um again I'm speaking 1583 02:40:25,800 --> 02:40:39,439 from my tenure uh as planning director um we do review these uh we make sure 1584 02:40:35,680 --> 02:40:46,520 that they're correct and appropriate um and um that is uh our our procedure and 1585 02:40:43,439 --> 02:40:56,920 that's our process. So um I will say this that um the process has been going 1586 02:40:50,880 --> 02:41:03,800 on now for 18 months 15 months um and uh ultimately uh we got to the right 1587 02:40:59,439 --> 02:41:09,960 decision. Um I would say that it as a contributing factor there was a 1588 02:41:07,200 --> 02:41:16,560 transition period and there could have been some um some 1589 02:41:13,399 --> 02:41:22,880 gaps. So uh you know I would say that we we landed uh where we should have landed 1590 02:41:19,920 --> 02:41:27,680 and that's what matters. um and the ordinance is upheld and we're not going 1591 02:41:25,680 --> 02:41:34,399 to approve something that requires a special use permit um unless a a special 1592 02:41:31,359 --> 02:41:34,399 use permit is 1593 02:41:45,000 --> 02:41:53,280 acquired. Um are there any other witnesses? 1594 02:41:50,319 --> 02:41:57,280 Um Mr. chairman. Yes. I don't know if if Mr. Thelen has any more questions for 1595 02:41:55,760 --> 02:42:02,240 I'll give him an opportunity in just a second, but uh what we had planned to do 1596 02:41:59,840 --> 02:42:08,240 was was have the planning director testify from the from the staff report, 1597 02:42:05,439 --> 02:42:16,000 which pretty much covers um the evidence from from the town's perspective. Um and 1598 02:42:11,359 --> 02:42:21,680 then we we have um um Mr. Leser and Mr. Deart that are available. They're here 1599 02:42:18,080 --> 02:42:27,920 in the in the room in the back. uh a as witnesses uh if if anyone wanted to to 1600 02:42:25,359 --> 02:42:32,040 um ask them questions, but but our our intention was not to separately call 1601 02:42:30,080 --> 02:42:37,120 them because I think the most of what what they could testify 1602 02:42:34,880 --> 02:42:41,920 to maybe all what they could testify to has already come into evidence. They 1603 02:42:39,520 --> 02:42:46,520 came in through the staff report. Well, certainly they're available to be called 1604 02:42:43,439 --> 02:42:50,160 on. Yes, I Yeah, I think the board understands understands. So we So I 1605 02:42:48,640 --> 02:42:53,600 don't have any questions of them. You don't have any? I don't plan to call 1606 02:42:51,359 --> 02:42:58,800 them as witness. So you have no additional witness? No 1607 02:42:56,479 --> 02:43:03,840 additional witness. Okay. Understood. Sorry for the long- winded answer. 1608 02:43:01,920 --> 02:43:09,280 Understood. Would you like to provide a rebuttal to his presentation? Thank you, 1609 02:43:06,800 --> 02:43:14,560 Mr. Chairman. We do we did discuss though uh the notion of closing. I would 1610 02:43:12,000 --> 02:43:18,720 have a just a brief closing maybe five seven minutes at the end of all the 1611 02:43:16,960 --> 02:43:22,960 testimony and before you deliberate Mr. Chairman I think that's reasonable we 1612 02:43:20,880 --> 02:43:28,160 can give and that's where I'd come in is I'm going to do the closing for the town 1613 02:43:25,040 --> 02:43:32,479 yes but okay um I would also move for the admission 1614 02:43:30,399 --> 02:43:36,560 of all of my exhibits sorry Mr. Chairman, I I I neglected to do so at 1615 02:43:34,720 --> 02:43:40,560 the close of our case. I'd move for the admission of our exhibits 1 through 12 1616 02:43:38,160 --> 02:43:45,520 in the binder into the record. Any objection? No objection. And I do the 1617 02:43:43,439 --> 02:43:50,080 same for this staff report. Any objections? 1618 02:43:47,040 --> 02:43:56,640 No, you said your um 1619 02:43:52,160 --> 02:44:01,880 yeah, same. Okay. So, so both the staff report and your materials will be 1620 02:43:58,160 --> 02:44:01,880 admitted into the evidence. 1621 02:44:02,760 --> 02:44:05,760 Yeah. 1622 02:44:05,960 --> 02:44:15,160 Um I did have one final question for Benur. Um probably Miss um 1623 02:44:16,479 --> 02:44:23,000 Stein. Stein, could you come up to the podium briefly, please? 1624 02:44:24,319 --> 02:44:31,120 Could I ask why Ventor submitted a special use 1625 02:44:28,600 --> 02:44:35,359 permit if you do not believe that it's required? 1626 02:44:33,439 --> 02:44:39,960 I think we were advised by council to submit the special use permit. I think 1627 02:44:37,600 --> 02:44:45,399 that's the way that happened. Is that the way you remember 1628 02:44:42,000 --> 02:44:51,760 it? Yeah. We were we were trying to go through uh so we're on some regulatory 1629 02:44:48,880 --> 02:44:56,640 deadlines for this project. We have bats in the area. We have only certain time 1630 02:44:54,160 --> 02:45:01,600 periods to cut trees. And so we were trying to expedite the uh process so we 1631 02:44:59,439 --> 02:45:05,200 can meet the deadlines of the project. And I think we were trying to work a 1632 02:45:03,120 --> 02:45:10,399 parallel path with appeal and a special permit. And the town came back and said, 1633 02:45:08,080 --> 02:45:15,120 let's deal with the appeal and then if we need to, we'll deal with the special 1634 02:45:11,760 --> 02:45:18,000 use permit. Okay. Mr. Robinson, did you want to add something? You is that the 1635 02:45:16,479 --> 02:45:22,880 way you remember it? Can you come up to the microphone, please? 1636 02:45:20,080 --> 02:45:28,000 That's correct. Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say is that as part 1637 02:45:25,920 --> 02:45:32,160 of trying our our thought was to try to keep our options open and work both 1638 02:45:29,840 --> 02:45:35,600 paths in parallel. However, I think an unintended consequence of that is that 1639 02:45:33,840 --> 02:45:41,200 the town decided, well, let's proceed with just the appeal and then decide 1640 02:45:37,920 --> 02:45:46,160 whether or not um we we would then need to proceed to a special use permit 1641 02:45:43,200 --> 02:45:50,319 hearing. Um, and and like Janna mentioned, the consideration was there's 1642 02:45:48,080 --> 02:45:56,319 a a specific time window during the year. There's ariccolored bat in the 1643 02:45:52,319 --> 02:46:02,240 area, and so you can't cut or grub trees um during their nesting period, which I 1644 02:45:59,520 --> 02:46:06,720 think is from April 1 to like November 15, somewhere around in there. So, so 1645 02:46:04,800 --> 02:46:09,680 we're pushing up against that. So, we were trying to work both of those pads 1646 02:46:08,160 --> 02:46:15,080 in parallel. That was the reason that the special use permit application was 1647 02:46:12,080 --> 02:46:15,080 submitted. 1648 02:46:25,439 --> 02:46:31,479 If there are no more questions, we'd let you do your closing remarks. 1649 02:46:31,960 --> 02:46:38,200 Second slide seven. Thank you. 1650 02:46:49,520 --> 02:46:53,920 While the PowerPoint is loading, I did I did want to make one point of 1651 02:46:52,479 --> 02:46:59,279 clarification. The conditional use permit that's being talked about was 1652 02:46:55,920 --> 02:47:04,000 issued in 2002, not 2022. I think there have been some typos, so it's appeared 1653 02:47:01,279 --> 02:47:11,319 here and there, but it's 2002 was the conditional use permit. The UDO was 1654 02:47:06,640 --> 02:47:15,600 newly adopted as noted by Mr. Gard in 2021. So, um yeah, the terminology 1655 02:47:14,319 --> 02:47:18,880 changed, but the whole law changed. That's why you heard the property 1656 02:47:16,640 --> 02:47:24,040 referred to as light industrial under the prior UDEO 1657 02:47:21,040 --> 02:47:30,800 um or the UDO that was in effect in 2002. Now, it's EC employment center. 1658 02:47:26,720 --> 02:47:35,279 Entirely different set of laws um which I'll get to in a second. Um thank you 1659 02:47:33,680 --> 02:47:39,920 again for your time. I'll keep this quick. 1660 02:47:37,080 --> 02:47:45,120 Um I think it's important um there's been a lot of discussion about what this 1661 02:47:41,359 --> 02:47:50,399 use is and what it is not. Um and that's important to the extent that um the 1662 02:47:47,600 --> 02:47:54,720 issue really from our perspective is is the interpretation given in our view is 1663 02:47:53,200 --> 02:47:58,560 interpretation given that it's permitted as of right um and we think the 1664 02:47:57,040 --> 02:48:04,640 interpretation given that it's a waste related use is that reasonable is that 1665 02:48:02,319 --> 02:48:10,080 is that defensible um and that's important because going 1666 02:48:07,120 --> 02:48:14,560 back to to Miss Stein's email from June is is that she's giving her analysis and 1667 02:48:12,399 --> 02:48:19,200 saying this is the use that we're describing. Remember, excuse me, she had 1668 02:48:17,359 --> 02:48:26,319 attached um you know the site plan, a preliminary 1669 02:48:21,920 --> 02:48:32,399 site plan and um the site submitt and she sends the email where she says this 1670 02:48:29,040 --> 02:48:35,080 is what I think this use is. Um now I do this all the time. There's been a lot of 1671 02:48:33,760 --> 02:48:39,120 talk about these interpretation requests. I do this all the time. And 1672 02:48:37,200 --> 02:48:42,720 when you're developing a project, I always go and I say this is what I'm 1673 02:48:40,720 --> 02:48:45,040 developing. this is the use that I'm going to develop. You don't get into 1674 02:48:43,840 --> 02:48:47,200 site plans. You don't get into measurements. But you might have a 1675 02:48:46,160 --> 02:48:52,000 question about measurement. You say, "But I can't quite tell how your 1676 02:48:49,359 --> 02:48:57,040 ordinance treats this particular thing, this particular use, this particular 1677 02:48:54,319 --> 02:49:00,399 setback. Is it measured from the wall? Is it measured from the parapet? Those 1678 02:48:58,880 --> 02:49:05,680 sorts of things. And you ask for a clarification and interpretation from 1679 02:49:02,880 --> 02:49:10,080 the town as to how the town interprets its ordinance and how it would apply the 1680 02:49:07,840 --> 02:49:13,840 ordinance to your particular question. So, this is not an email saying, "Can I 1681 02:49:12,479 --> 02:49:18,040 just go ahead and build my landfill?" It's saying, "We think our landfill, as 1682 02:49:15,840 --> 02:49:21,359 we've described it, including these attachments." Pardon me, I keep going 1683 02:49:19,760 --> 02:49:24,319 the wrong way. So, there's some description here. It's not just in a 1684 02:49:22,880 --> 02:49:28,399 vacuum. It's pretty descriptive. It's saying, "We think that we are in all 1685 02:49:26,160 --> 02:49:32,960 other waste related services use permitted within EC zoning." She's 1686 02:49:30,560 --> 02:49:36,800 asking that question. And the letter can't just be viewed. The August 2022 1687 02:49:35,200 --> 02:49:41,279 letter cannot be viewed simply within the context of the letter itself. 1688 02:49:39,760 --> 02:49:45,279 um it needs to be viewed within the context of the question that was asked 1689 02:49:42,960 --> 02:49:50,479 and the question is this is what I think we are can you provide clarification on 1690 02:49:48,240 --> 02:49:56,040 this issue that's what she's asking that's what ventor is asking of the town 1691 02:49:53,600 --> 02:50:02,319 yeah keep going the wrong way I apologize so and then also the town as 1692 02:49:59,359 --> 02:50:07,680 part of this again after the email takes the pre-application form and to the 1693 02:50:04,800 --> 02:50:11,840 question from board member long about is this a living document ment it may be a 1694 02:50:10,000 --> 02:50:17,040 living document but if you again you'll see on the first page on the second page 1695 02:50:14,319 --> 02:50:21,760 the notion of conditional use permit is blank because that is what ventor 1696 02:50:19,359 --> 02:50:25,880 thought consistent with its June 6th email that third page though is that 1697 02:50:23,920 --> 02:50:30,720 it's showing look at the top it says accepted Mr. Thomas and the town 1698 02:50:28,479 --> 02:50:35,040 engineer accept it. So now Ventor is understanding all right this is now G 1699 02:50:32,960 --> 02:50:39,439 going in the same direction. Again the question that's been asked the use has 1700 02:50:37,279 --> 02:50:43,040 been described is our use a waste related use and the town could have told 1701 02:50:41,600 --> 02:50:47,359 him it was something else. The town did not do so. 1702 02:50:45,000 --> 02:50:51,600 Instead the town says well give me some draft language. Ventor didn't send 1703 02:50:49,920 --> 02:50:55,040 language and say here's a letter sign this letter. It said can you confirm 1704 02:50:53,120 --> 02:50:59,200 this use? The town then asks Ventor, "Well, send 1705 02:50:57,279 --> 02:51:03,439 us the language you want." And it comes from Miss Stein again. Miss Stein asked 1706 02:51:01,040 --> 02:51:09,279 the June question and then she provides the language. If 1707 02:51:05,240 --> 02:51:13,600 someone asks me a question and then I say, "Well, give me the answer that you 1708 02:51:11,439 --> 02:51:16,960 think it is." And that question, by the way, has the answer within it. She 1709 02:51:14,960 --> 02:51:19,840 doesn't say, "What use am I?" and then gives them this language. She says, "I 1710 02:51:18,399 --> 02:51:23,920 think I'm an other waste related services use permitted by right." And 1711 02:51:22,160 --> 02:51:28,279 the town says, "Give us some language." And the town puts that language into its 1712 02:51:26,640 --> 02:51:34,479 letter verbatim. And this is this is 1713 02:51:31,560 --> 02:51:37,600 not this is just what Ventor understood. This is not trying to say that someone 1714 02:51:35,840 --> 02:51:40,160 did something wrong. In fact, we don't think the town did anything wrong. In 1715 02:51:38,960 --> 02:51:44,880 fact, we think the town did something defensible. We think the town answered a 1716 02:51:43,200 --> 02:51:47,920 question specifically that was asked and gave us an answer that we thought was 1717 02:51:46,240 --> 02:51:51,439 right, that Venetra thought was right, that Miss Stein thought was right and 1718 02:51:49,760 --> 02:51:55,600 confirmed it. And again, this is a common practice in the zoning world to 1719 02:51:54,160 --> 02:51:59,359 ask for an interpretation of the ordinance to accept that interpretation 1720 02:51:57,680 --> 02:52:03,120 and either appeal it and we'd be here saying maybe the town says you need a 1721 02:52:01,279 --> 02:52:06,520 special use permit and Ventor disagrees with that and Ventor says we don't think 1722 02:52:05,040 --> 02:52:10,800 we're that we'd appeal that determination. But frankly, well, I 1723 02:52:09,200 --> 02:52:13,200 don't know. It's speculation, but Ventor would have said, "Fine, we'll go with a 1724 02:52:11,920 --> 02:52:18,920 special use permit." But I got this interpretation in August that it was per 1725 02:52:15,359 --> 02:52:23,640 permitted by Wright and all this time passes. So the question asked is the 1726 02:52:21,680 --> 02:52:28,359 question answered. That's the point here. And I know that's clear at this 1727 02:52:25,840 --> 02:52:32,000 point, but it's not just what the letter said. It's what the letter said within 1728 02:52:30,720 --> 02:52:36,000 the context of the question that was asked. And Mr. Gordon is right. The 1729 02:52:33,760 --> 02:52:38,680 letter does not say a special use permit is not required, but it doesn't say one 1730 02:52:37,840 --> 02:52:42,000 is required. Doesn't say anything with 1731 02:52:40,560 --> 02:52:46,319 regard to special use permit. And that's part of the problem within the context 1732 02:52:43,920 --> 02:52:49,680 of the question that is asked. There's the language from Miss Stein's email and 1733 02:52:48,240 --> 02:52:53,840 there's the language, the operative language from the August letter that 1734 02:52:51,760 --> 02:52:57,920 we're talking about. Then again, there's a submission in November. And this is 1735 02:52:55,760 --> 02:53:02,640 not trying to point fingers. This is simply to say this is all consistent 1736 02:52:59,680 --> 02:53:07,120 with what Ventor thought. So Ventor still thinks in November of of 23 that 1737 02:53:05,680 --> 02:53:11,279 it doesn't need a special use permit. It submits a pre-application summary form 1738 02:53:09,120 --> 02:53:15,520 as you see on the right there. And again, it leaves it blank. There's no 1739 02:53:12,640 --> 02:53:15,520 special use permit 1740 02:53:15,560 --> 02:53:22,640 required. Ventor is trying to figure out, well, now it now it believes that 1741 02:53:20,399 --> 02:53:25,920 the town has interpreted, but but Ventor back in June of 22 is trying to figure 1742 02:53:24,399 --> 02:53:29,600 out what the town's laws are. It's not trying to tell the town what the laws 1743 02:53:27,279 --> 02:53:33,279 are, trying to do something outside the town laws. It's trying to dot its eyes 1744 02:53:31,279 --> 02:53:37,359 and cross its tees. And it thought it was doing so. And again, the town is 1745 02:53:35,600 --> 02:53:41,359 specifically I don't have the ordinance provision here in a slide, but the town 1746 02:53:39,120 --> 02:53:47,840 is specifically authorized, you saw it at the at at the outset, that that state 1747 02:53:45,040 --> 02:53:52,880 law and town law authorize town staff to issue these kinds of determinations and 1748 02:53:50,720 --> 02:53:58,880 authorizes specific people and it's broad. It's it's any design of 1749 02:53:56,439 --> 02:54:01,920 staff. And so the emails went to Craig Thomas. Tom Leser sent the letter back, 1750 02:54:00,479 --> 02:54:05,600 but no one said, "Yeah, but he's not authorized." And I'm not sure about 1751 02:54:03,840 --> 02:54:08,399 that, frankly, if that would work anyway that a town could say, 'Well, you asked 1752 02:54:06,880 --> 02:54:12,160 me, but he wrote the letter. It's on town letterhead. Town knew about it. 1753 02:54:10,319 --> 02:54:16,800 It's signed by the town. Town never appealed it. Town never cancelceled it 1754 02:54:14,240 --> 02:54:16,800 or withdrew 1755 02:54:16,920 --> 02:54:26,880 it. So then in response to that November 1st application is that 1756 02:54:24,160 --> 02:54:29,240 the ventor gets this memo the next day back from the town. And it does say in 1757 02:54:28,560 --> 02:54:34,160 there that can't quite read it, but at the 1758 02:54:31,600 --> 02:54:40,880 bottom there on the left on your left is that it does say that yeah, the land use 1759 02:54:37,359 --> 02:54:44,560 requires a special use permit. Okay. And you also heard the testimony that Ventor 1760 02:54:42,560 --> 02:54:47,520 understood that to be yeah, if there's an expansion of the chemical plant, 1761 02:54:45,840 --> 02:54:52,479 that's a that's a special use per. But if you go higher with a proposed use, 1762 02:54:49,920 --> 02:54:56,560 this memo is saying the proposed use is a landfill and that's what's being 1763 02:54:54,560 --> 02:55:02,319 talked about here. And then next to that it says waste related services permitted 1764 02:54:59,680 --> 02:55:06,319 by right. And no one's pointing a finger again. It's just saying this is just 1765 02:55:03,960 --> 02:55:10,600 consistently telling Ventor what it thought it knew in June or August, 1766 02:55:09,359 --> 02:55:14,960 excuse me, in 2022. And this is 1767 02:55:12,760 --> 02:55:19,359 consistent. And it's not whether it's the only correct answer, whether it's 1768 02:55:17,680 --> 02:55:23,520 absolutely correct. This is waste related services and nothing else. It 1769 02:55:21,120 --> 02:55:27,439 can't be heavy industrial. It's just whether it's defensible. and looking at 1770 02:55:25,200 --> 02:55:32,080 the definition of waste related services you heard Mr. Gordon talk about how it 1771 02:55:30,160 --> 02:55:36,399 can't be that because it does not doesn't does not receive from other 1772 02:55:34,240 --> 02:55:42,240 sites. No, but it also says at the end or any other use that the director 1773 02:55:38,720 --> 02:55:46,880 determines it shall be also to that point is that's why they sought the 1774 02:55:44,640 --> 02:55:50,960 interpretation. These definitions are hard to get your hands around. They're 1775 02:55:48,479 --> 02:55:54,640 hard to understand and they're constantly interpreted by town staff and 1776 02:55:52,800 --> 02:56:00,800 they're constantly interpreted in a way that can sometimes be helpful, sometimes 1777 02:55:56,840 --> 02:56:04,720 be disagreeable, and then the applicant, the property owner has rights in that 1778 02:56:02,399 --> 02:56:09,920 regard. If you send a letter saying, "Can I build a house on this property?" 1779 02:56:07,040 --> 02:56:13,120 And the town writes back, "Your h your property is properly zoned." And then 1780 02:56:11,840 --> 02:56:19,439 you build a house and they say, "No, no, no, no, no. That's not what we meant. 1781 02:56:16,040 --> 02:56:22,720 That's say We didn't say that it has to be a house like this or has to be a blue 1782 02:56:20,960 --> 02:56:26,000 house or something to that effect. Okay. But that's a question asked and a 1783 02:56:24,160 --> 02:56:28,960 question answered in Ventor's mind. Ventor is not the zoning expert. There's 1784 02:56:27,600 --> 02:56:32,240 been a lot of question. Are you a zoning expert? You have this understanding. 1785 02:56:30,399 --> 02:56:34,640 They're not the zoning experts. I was not involved in these interpretations. 1786 02:56:33,520 --> 02:56:37,520 They didn't have a lawyer at that point in time, but that's why they're asking 1787 02:56:35,760 --> 02:56:41,120 these questions is they're trying to get an interpretation to get confirmation 1788 02:56:39,200 --> 02:56:46,720 from the town as to how it's going to interpret its laws. Then we get the 1789 02:56:43,760 --> 02:56:51,680 email at the end. All of this comes into and there's a 1790 02:56:48,880 --> 02:56:57,040 definitive case and we submitted point briefing on this and I'll keep this 1791 02:56:54,080 --> 02:57:03,040 quick and fast. Um, but the definitive case on use interpretations is St. 1792 02:56:59,439 --> 02:57:08,080 Wooten and the facts there do match up to the facts here and I'll conclude on 1793 02:57:05,520 --> 02:57:11,120 this that the facts at St. Wooten. So the facts on your left are St. Woot and 1794 02:57:09,760 --> 02:57:14,800 the facts on the right are what we've done here and these are quotes from St. 1795 02:57:13,200 --> 02:57:18,399 Wooten. It's a court of appeals case from 2011 here in North Carolina. The 1796 02:57:17,359 --> 02:57:22,080 petitioner of the land owner specifically requested the plan director 1797 02:57:20,640 --> 02:57:26,479 interpret the ordinance and determine whether asphalt plant was permitted 1798 02:57:24,359 --> 02:57:30,319 use. That's what happened. Ventor requested clarification with the propos 1799 02:57:28,479 --> 02:57:33,080 proposed use is quote all other waste related services and permitted within 1800 02:57:31,680 --> 02:57:38,240 the EC zoning. So Ventor gets an interpretation 1801 02:57:36,399 --> 02:57:41,200 that adopts a ventor's own proposed language. was trying to get the 1802 02:57:39,600 --> 02:57:45,560 interpretation that the property owner was seeking in 1803 02:57:42,439 --> 02:57:49,520 Wooten. The interpretation in Wooten and this is an important part 1804 02:57:47,840 --> 02:57:55,040 because there was some talk about the the language in the August letter about 1805 02:57:52,240 --> 02:57:59,680 how other regulations apply permits need to be sought that didn't matter in the 1806 02:57:57,600 --> 02:58:02,800 context of Wen and you see there specifically at the end the fact that 1807 02:58:00,960 --> 02:58:06,319 Mr. Franos Mr. Frangus was the plan director for the town of Zebulon. In 1808 02:58:04,399 --> 02:58:09,920 this case, letter mentioned that a building permit would be needed before a 1809 02:58:07,680 --> 02:58:14,399 petitioner could begin construction does not convert his unequivocal zoning 1810 02:58:12,000 --> 02:58:18,160 interpretation into advisory opinion. The town argued that understandably so 1811 02:58:16,800 --> 02:58:23,600 said, "Yeah, but we said you got to get other permits. You got to get site 1812 02:58:19,520 --> 02:58:27,520 plan." Ventor knows that. Ventors knows that it has to get site plan approval. 1813 02:58:25,520 --> 02:58:32,000 It doesn't just get to walk out of here if you all find that the August letter 1814 02:58:29,920 --> 02:58:36,640 was was a binding determination. This is permitted as of right. Ventor still has 1815 02:58:34,880 --> 02:58:39,439 to go through a site plan process at the town. It just does not have to go 1816 02:58:37,840 --> 02:58:42,560 through the special use permit process at the town. It doesn't have to come 1817 02:58:40,640 --> 02:58:47,920 back here and go through an evidentiary hearing. It will if it has to, but 1818 02:58:45,640 --> 02:58:51,439 that's there is still a site plan process. There are still state 1819 02:58:49,520 --> 02:58:56,160 regulations that apply. This is not a way out of regulation. is just a way 1820 02:58:53,920 --> 02:59:00,920 through straight to sight plan process between Ventor and the administrative 1821 02:58:58,399 --> 02:59:05,960 staff at the town. Then just like in Wooten and just 1822 02:59:03,680 --> 02:59:10,319 like here, there were confirmations in Wooten. So it wasn't 1823 02:59:08,319 --> 02:59:14,760 just that that the letter was written, it was that that interpretation was 1824 02:59:12,080 --> 02:59:21,520 confirmed. And you heard us talk here about the pre-application summary that 1825 02:59:18,760 --> 02:59:27,200 said no conditional use permit was being sought and that was accepted and signed 1826 02:59:24,080 --> 02:59:32,800 by town staff in July of 22. And then you also saw the November 23 memorandum 1827 02:59:29,439 --> 02:59:38,399 where it said proposed use landfill waste related services permitted by 1828 02:59:35,359 --> 02:59:41,439 right. So just like in Wooten here we had 1829 02:59:39,160 --> 02:59:44,399 confirmation again in Wooten and here you heard Ventor talk about how they 1830 02:59:42,960 --> 02:59:49,200 relied on the interpretation. It wasn't like the interpretation was given on a 1831 02:59:45,920 --> 02:59:52,560 Monday and then they appealed it on a Friday or they got a different one on a 1832 02:59:51,120 --> 02:59:58,080 Friday and then appealed it on a Monday. They got the interpretation in August of 1833 02:59:55,319 --> 03:00:04,000 22, relied on it. It was confirmed. Did a bunch of stuff and then it was 1834 03:00:01,640 --> 03:00:07,680 upended his ventor's position. was reversed in November of 23. They may 1835 03:00:06,080 --> 03:00:10,800 have gotten it right as Mr. Gordon said eventually, but that's not how it works. 1836 03:00:08,880 --> 03:00:14,640 You can't just get it right eventually. That's not how the law works, 1837 03:00:12,080 --> 03:00:18,560 unfortunately, is that if you render the interpretation, if it's defensible, and 1838 03:00:16,640 --> 03:00:22,560 which by the way, we would posit that it was, which is why the town gave it, as 1839 03:00:20,720 --> 03:00:27,000 we would say, the town, unless it appeals its own interpretation, and it 1840 03:00:24,479 --> 03:00:31,920 can do that. Towns do that all the time. Unless they do that, they are 1841 03:00:30,160 --> 03:00:35,840 bound just as we're bound if we don't appeal. They have rights. We have 1842 03:00:33,479 --> 03:00:40,000 rights. They don't get a way out of those rights. And we would have been 1843 03:00:37,120 --> 03:00:44,399 stuck if we hadn't appealed it. And then in the end, just like in Wooten, just 1844 03:00:41,840 --> 03:00:48,080 like here, the language in Wooten, and it's weird, is that neither of the town 1845 03:00:46,479 --> 03:00:52,160 have the authority to render a contrary decision or collaterally attack the 2001 1846 03:00:50,279 --> 03:00:57,680 interpretation. We would say that here. There was no authority to issue the 1847 03:00:54,080 --> 03:01:00,960 November 15th, 23 email that says you got to get a special use because they 1848 03:00:59,200 --> 03:01:04,240 already rendered their binding and final interpretation that the use was 1849 03:01:02,160 --> 03:01:10,399 permitted as of right. And so we're not asking you essentially to reverse the 1850 03:01:06,720 --> 03:01:15,399 November 15th, 23 email from Mr. Hart. We're asking you to uphold the August 1851 03:01:13,640 --> 03:01:19,760 2022 interpretation that was confirmed over 1852 03:01:17,600 --> 03:01:26,240 time that the use is permitted as of right. the on-site landfill as described 1853 03:01:23,520 --> 03:01:29,880 and as shown in June is permitted as of right on the 1854 03:01:27,399 --> 03:01:34,399 property. And that's our conclusion. So with that, thank you very 1855 03:01:32,800 --> 03:01:37,520 much for your time. I'm happy to answer any questions. I know it's been a lot. 1856 03:01:36,080 --> 03:01:43,680 So, so we appreciate the time and attention. 1857 03:01:40,240 --> 03:01:48,760 Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, can I stay right here instead of going? Yes, 1858 03:01:46,000 --> 03:01:54,960 sir. Thank you. Um, I think one thing that we need to 1859 03:01:52,080 --> 03:02:01,840 look at to start out uh with what I want to say is that when they get into this 1860 03:01:58,080 --> 03:02:09,840 discussion about accessory uses and and um uh waste other waste disposal, um 1861 03:02:06,960 --> 03:02:16,080 they're trying to pull out this 3.6 acre parcel from the entire 100 acres of 1862 03:02:13,840 --> 03:02:22,880 that. That's one parcel that has a chemical plant on it. Um, this parcel 1863 03:02:19,680 --> 03:02:27,680 had been developed as a chemical plant and part of the area that had previously 1864 03:02:25,439 --> 03:02:32,880 been developed as as part of the chemical plant was the area for diso 1865 03:02:30,399 --> 03:02:37,200 disposal of their waste. We you've heard a lot of discussion about that and 1866 03:02:35,040 --> 03:02:41,840 they've got the lagoon out there that they're going to change as part of this 1867 03:02:39,040 --> 03:02:47,520 project. Um but that's all part of the the chem chemical plant. Um and it's not 1868 03:02:44,960 --> 03:02:54,720 an accessory use. It's not a light industrial use. If you read the def 1869 03:02:50,720 --> 03:02:58,800 definitions under the um UDO, uh chemical plants are heavy industrial 1870 03:02:56,560 --> 03:03:04,000 uses. And this part of the of the property is part of the of the chemical 1871 03:03:01,359 --> 03:03:09,439 plant operation because they have to do something with their waste. And so to 1872 03:03:06,640 --> 03:03:14,080 say that it's some sort of a accessory use and you could pull this 3.6 acres 1873 03:03:12,160 --> 03:03:19,840 out and treat it differently from the way you treat all the rest of the 1874 03:03:15,439 --> 03:03:25,359 property is just is not what is occurring here. It's it's one parcel. 1875 03:03:22,080 --> 03:03:29,359 It's it's one uh project and it's a it's just a another thing that they're going 1876 03:03:27,200 --> 03:03:32,960 to do on this property that's related to the chemical plant. 1877 03:03:33,160 --> 03:03:39,680 Um, now you've heard a lot about the some of 1878 03:03:38,000 --> 03:03:45,279 the history and I thought it was interesting when you listen to the the 1879 03:03:41,840 --> 03:03:50,800 witnesses for Ventor that that really no one looked at the history of this 1880 03:03:48,240 --> 03:03:57,120 property and and its relationship to the town as it related to its zoning. And I 1881 03:03:53,840 --> 03:04:02,399 think that that because of that uh now they want to to look at the present 1882 03:04:00,240 --> 03:04:08,640 situation differently from what it's always been which was as a special use 1883 03:04:05,760 --> 03:04:14,319 situation a chemical plant. Everybody here knows where it is and it's been 1884 03:04:10,800 --> 03:04:20,080 there for 60 years as you heard. Um and um um they didn't look into that to see 1885 03:04:17,359 --> 03:04:25,279 what the relationship was. It's almost what I've got out of all this evidence 1886 03:04:22,800 --> 03:04:30,399 uh is that they didn't want to look at that. They were looking for a way to to 1887 03:04:27,279 --> 03:04:34,960 to do this project without having to get a special use permit and to deal with it 1888 03:04:32,960 --> 03:04:41,680 as a matter of right. So they wouldn't have to um um go through the procedures 1889 03:04:38,640 --> 03:04:47,359 that require a public hearing um on on on this new way they want to treat their 1890 03:04:45,120 --> 03:04:52,319 waste. I think that's what's really what it came down to. and they were hoping to 1891 03:04:49,279 --> 03:04:56,720 avoid a special use. And that's why we get into all this back and forth about 1892 03:04:54,720 --> 03:05:01,200 about the letter and what needs to go into it. I'm not saying that they were 1893 03:04:58,960 --> 03:05:05,600 disingenuous about it. I'm just saying that that they didn't want to have to do 1894 03:05:03,680 --> 03:05:11,439 a special use and they were hoping to avoid the public hearing and and that 1895 03:05:08,080 --> 03:05:16,160 part of of of of what would occur with a special use permit and just be able to 1896 03:05:13,520 --> 03:05:21,520 take care of this change that they want to make as something that that no one 1897 03:05:18,800 --> 03:05:25,359 basically outside of them and maybe some of the town officials would know about. 1898 03:05:24,000 --> 03:05:31,279 And I think that's really what we're dealing with here. um when they um look 1899 03:05:28,399 --> 03:05:35,439 at just part of the property and and and then consider say that it's this 1900 03:05:33,200 --> 03:05:41,160 accessory use that they can do by right instead of looking at the totality of 1901 03:05:38,000 --> 03:05:46,880 what's going on here. Um, and I think that was basically shown 1902 03:05:44,160 --> 03:05:51,520 by by the testimony of the witnesses that they're looking for a different way 1903 03:05:48,240 --> 03:05:57,200 to look at this as accessory use or a waste related matter instead of that 1904 03:05:54,960 --> 03:06:02,479 we're dealing with a a chemical plant and part of the of the processes of that 1905 03:06:00,240 --> 03:06:06,560 chemical plant which includes dealing with their own waste uh that comes from 1906 03:06:04,800 --> 03:06:08,800 the process. So, 1907 03:06:10,040 --> 03:06:15,920 um, if they done their research, they would have known that they would have 1908 03:06:13,840 --> 03:06:19,600 needed a special youth permit. We wouldn't have gone through all this, you 1909 03:06:17,600 --> 03:06:24,120 know, back and forth about the letter and what needed to go in the letter. 1910 03:06:22,439 --> 03:06:29,359 Um, so I think that has been shown by the 1911 03:06:27,120 --> 03:06:33,760 evidence and I would point out that that the burden of proof in these hearings um 1912 03:06:32,160 --> 03:06:41,520 these types of hearings is on the applicant is on Benitors to prove to you 1913 03:06:37,040 --> 03:06:47,760 that um that um this was a matter um of right uh under under the ordinance. Now, 1914 03:06:53,640 --> 03:07:04,720 um I want to talk about the the Wooten case as well. Mr. Thielen has given you 1915 03:07:01,040 --> 03:07:11,120 his um um interpretation of it and I've got a copy of it right here. Um it's 1916 03:07:07,120 --> 03:07:18,080 it's court of appeals case from 2011 and it does have some similarities to to the 1917 03:07:14,160 --> 03:07:24,240 um u to this situation but it is not on all all fours which means that that it's 1918 03:07:21,200 --> 03:07:32,000 it's not precedent that that basically has the same sax facts as as as the u 1919 03:07:28,640 --> 03:07:37,200 that as this case. Um, and I'm going to point out to you some of the big 1920 03:07:33,840 --> 03:07:43,040 differences um, uh, between the decision in Wooten and and um, this situation 1921 03:07:39,920 --> 03:07:48,960 here. Um, and because it's not on all all floors, it really isn't precedent 1922 03:07:45,760 --> 03:07:53,680 for for how you make your decision in this case. 1923 03:07:50,520 --> 03:07:59,680 Um now in in Wooten, the planning director wrote a couple of letters um in 1924 03:07:57,279 --> 03:08:02,920 which he clearly stated that the the asphalt plant that they were asking for 1925 03:08:01,600 --> 03:08:11,040 in Wooten fell within the definition uh of 1926 03:08:07,920 --> 03:08:15,120 the zoning for Wooten's property. It was they were operating a concrete plant on 1927 03:08:13,040 --> 03:08:21,200 that property at that time and they wanted to expand into asphalt and uh 1928 03:08:18,319 --> 03:08:27,120 under and this is the town of Ze Zebulon so it's not Harrisburg it's a different 1929 03:08:23,120 --> 03:08:32,359 town different ordinance but that um um but the definitions under their 1930 03:08:29,359 --> 03:08:38,960 ordinance said that that that um asphalt would be a related type of 1931 03:08:36,319 --> 03:08:45,840 use because it was in an heavy industrial zoning district and his 1932 03:08:42,640 --> 03:08:53,760 letters uh that he wrote to them were directly to them um and and were very um 1933 03:08:50,720 --> 03:09:00,319 directly um um dealing with with that issue. It wasn't like um uh Mr. Leser's 1934 03:08:57,040 --> 03:09:06,960 letter which was ambiguous and didn't cover all the things that maybe it it it 1935 03:09:03,359 --> 03:09:14,000 could have covered. Um but in in Wooten it it said that the um that 1936 03:09:10,680 --> 03:09:20,880 um an asphalt plant would be permitted by right um um and and and basically was 1937 03:09:18,479 --> 03:09:29,279 just straight out that that you could do it in that way. Um you didn't need any 1938 03:09:24,560 --> 03:09:35,960 special use permit or anything. Um so um in that situation um 1939 03:09:33,439 --> 03:09:41,600 um when I say there was no amb no ambiguity it was it was very clear um 1940 03:09:39,680 --> 03:09:46,160 and then here's what happened in the Wooten case after that and that was 1941 03:09:43,840 --> 03:09:53,840 written in 2001 um um uh that those letters were written 1942 03:09:49,760 --> 03:09:59,600 in in Wooten the company um um started using the property as asphalt plant in 1943 03:09:56,160 --> 03:10:05,120 200 2009. Um and received a zoning permit from the from the town uh that 1944 03:10:02,160 --> 03:10:12,080 year. Um it was not until after the zoning permit was um issued in 2009 um 1945 03:10:09,760 --> 03:10:15,760 and after the plant had opened and they were operating it that that the town 1946 03:10:14,319 --> 03:10:21,200 notified them that they would have to have a special use permit. So So that 1947 03:10:18,319 --> 03:10:27,439 was basically eight years after the issue. Um not not 15 months as here. It 1948 03:10:25,520 --> 03:10:31,600 was a long time and and the plant was actually up and operating. It wasn't 1949 03:10:29,359 --> 03:10:38,000 just uh something that that they're still thinking about doing because as I 1950 03:10:34,880 --> 03:10:45,279 think it was pointed out the the um the project hasn't started on the ground 1951 03:10:40,000 --> 03:10:50,399 here at all. So um um so that was a huge difference in the Wooten case. um the 1952 03:10:48,399 --> 03:10:57,960 eight years and the fact that the plant was already up and oper operating. Um 1953 03:10:54,359 --> 03:11:03,439 um wound also um divided the the property into two parts. Uh so the 1954 03:11:01,279 --> 03:11:09,200 concrete plant be on one side and the asphalt plant on the other. And um um I 1955 03:11:06,880 --> 03:11:15,120 say it was it was up and operating. In that eight years they had spent over 1956 03:11:11,240 --> 03:11:21,520 $300,000. This is all in the opinion um um on on putting the asphalt plant in 1957 03:11:18,800 --> 03:11:28,279 and it obtained all the state and local permits that they needed to operate it. 1958 03:11:23,920 --> 03:11:34,439 Um and that's not the case here either. um court of appeals um in the in the 1959 03:11:32,160 --> 03:11:39,960 opinion makes a distinction between authoritative opinions in zoning letters 1960 03:11:37,279 --> 03:11:48,479 and one in which the official is just expressing a view or opinion or belief. 1961 03:11:44,080 --> 03:11:53,359 Um so um um it wouldn't the opinion was that of the planning director um who 1962 03:11:51,520 --> 03:12:01,200 clearly had the authority to issue the permit and the or issue the letter and 1963 03:11:55,920 --> 03:12:06,880 the letter was clear. Um um um I say in this situation of course Mr. Lester, 1964 03:12:03,680 --> 03:12:11,800 who's the zoning um enforcement officer, issued the letter, but as was pointed 1965 03:12:09,520 --> 03:12:17,359 out in our staff report, there are some ambiguities in it, and it certainly 1966 03:12:14,960 --> 03:12:22,439 doesn't uh say anything about the conditional use permit one way or the 1967 03:12:19,520 --> 03:12:28,160 other. Um so, um that's another distinction. Um 1968 03:12:26,240 --> 03:12:36,000 there's a line of cases that are cited in in this opinion uh that basically um 1969 03:12:32,800 --> 03:12:40,880 are come to a different result from from the Wooten case. And I'm not going to go 1970 03:12:38,240 --> 03:12:47,439 into all that, but just say that there that in that line of cases, um there's a 1971 03:12:44,479 --> 03:12:54,880 they recite a a provision in North Carolina law that says that a town or or 1972 03:12:52,160 --> 03:13:00,640 local government cannot be stopped from enforcing a zoning ordinance against a 1973 03:12:57,520 --> 03:13:05,600 violator uh due to the conduct of the zoning officer and encouraging or 1974 03:13:03,279 --> 03:13:12,880 permitting the violation. And basically what that says is that if you issue um a 1975 03:13:08,960 --> 03:13:18,640 a a letter like this in error um you you can go back and and and correct it. The 1976 03:13:15,760 --> 03:13:25,359 town has not stopped u under the law from going back and and and um and 1977 03:13:22,840 --> 03:13:32,319 requiring a of a provision of the ordinance that's in there uh that it 1978 03:13:28,600 --> 03:13:38,080 didn't require in the in the letter. So, so like I say, under the law and under 1979 03:13:35,840 --> 03:13:43,680 Ruben, there's some significant differences between our situation here 1980 03:13:40,560 --> 03:13:48,800 and and the facts in that case, which I would contend make it not precedent for 1981 03:13:46,640 --> 03:13:52,640 this situation. I think what's more precedent is that out of the line of 1982 03:13:50,399 --> 03:13:57,600 cases that says that the town could not be stopped or or prevented from 1983 03:13:55,600 --> 03:14:04,640 enforcing the ordinance that it has on the books which is which is pretty clear 1984 03:14:00,479 --> 03:14:11,359 that our um UDO require would require a special use permit in this situation as 1985 03:14:07,520 --> 03:14:17,520 as Miss Deal Deart wrote in her in her memo. Um, so that's that's how the we 1986 03:14:15,120 --> 03:14:23,840 contend the law shapes up and it's not in favor of of of Ventor. It actually is 1987 03:14:21,359 --> 03:14:32,960 in favor of the town and that we have the ability to to correct what may look 1988 03:14:27,520 --> 03:14:38,800 like an error earlier or in as it really in some ways not an error. it it the 1989 03:14:36,080 --> 03:14:43,600 letter just is ambiguous and is not something that they that they could have 1990 03:14:40,479 --> 03:14:46,560 relied on as they say they did. Um I would also point out that there's been a 1991 03:14:45,200 --> 03:14:51,920 little bit talk about what they've done about this project, but nothing is in in 1992 03:14:49,359 --> 03:14:58,640 evidence to this board that they've spent all this money and relied on that 1993 03:14:54,239 --> 03:15:04,479 letter in some way like Wooten did in in in their situation. Um like I say, the 1994 03:15:02,319 --> 03:15:09,760 projects have not started yet. there's nothing on the ground out there that's 1995 03:15:06,560 --> 03:15:15,200 changed from what the situation was. So, it's just not the same um as as the 1996 03:15:12,560 --> 03:15:22,720 Wooten case. And I think that this board has the ability um under the law of 1997 03:15:18,399 --> 03:15:29,120 North Carolina to um to require that they um um have a special use permit in 1998 03:15:26,640 --> 03:15:35,040 this case. Your decision actually here would be that you would uphold the 1999 03:15:31,120 --> 03:15:41,040 staff's determination um and and um deny the appeal. Uh that's what the town 2000 03:15:37,279 --> 03:15:48,720 would ask for and and in this in this um uh hearing and so we 2001 03:15:43,720 --> 03:15:48,720 um we would ask that you do that. 2002 03:15:50,680 --> 03:15:57,239 Um that's all I have. Okay. 2003 03:15:57,920 --> 03:16:00,920 Um 2004 03:16:00,960 --> 03:16:07,680 yeah yeah welcome to ask questions either. So it is a law that you can go 2005 03:16:05,840 --> 03:16:12,000 back three years later and say we screwed up and approved something and 2006 03:16:09,359 --> 03:16:16,080 now we can change that approval. That that's what that line of cases says 2007 03:16:14,239 --> 03:16:20,800 and that that's only if it's in your ordinance. You you're always entitled to 2008 03:16:18,479 --> 03:16:29,120 enforce your ordinance. Um, and you can't have um either a mistake or maybe 2009 03:16:24,880 --> 03:16:34,239 in some cases even a um um situation where the responsible official just kind 2010 03:16:32,160 --> 03:16:39,920 of looks the other other way and doesn't really uphold the ordinance. In either 2011 03:16:36,800 --> 03:16:44,319 situation, um you if you find that that you made a mistake, you can go back and 2012 03:16:42,239 --> 03:16:49,040 and correct it and require that that the property owner uh comply with with the 2013 03:16:46,800 --> 03:16:53,840 ordinance. That's that's what we contend the law says. And there's a whole line 2014 03:16:51,200 --> 03:16:58,560 of cases. Uh actually the case that I cited that from I didn't give you the 2015 03:16:56,160 --> 03:17:01,760 name of it. It's Winston Salem versus Concrete 2016 03:16:59,640 --> 03:17:06,960 Company. That was another court of appeals case. So three or four times 2017 03:17:04,239 --> 03:17:14,000 somebody can say yes, yes, yes, and then three years later you can say no. Well, 2018 03:17:09,600 --> 03:17:17,760 it it it creates a um it creates a tough situation. Um it really does. And I 2019 03:17:16,319 --> 03:17:22,640 understand where you're headed with that, but that's why I pointed out that 2020 03:17:20,560 --> 03:17:27,359 despite what's been, you know, some of the testimony, there's been nothing to 2021 03:17:24,479 --> 03:17:34,880 show you that there really has been um some sort of um detrimental reliance on 2022 03:17:31,520 --> 03:17:39,359 on on that letter. Um the project hasn't started. There may have been some 2023 03:17:36,399 --> 03:17:45,680 designs drawn up, but that can be dealt with through the special use of of part 2024 03:17:42,319 --> 03:17:49,439 of of any matter. Um, but there it's not like the project was built and they were 2025 03:17:47,760 --> 03:17:53,920 operating it. Then all of a sudden we came back after they spent all this 2026 03:17:51,279 --> 03:17:58,399 money and and done like in Wooten and the and the town said, "Oh, no. You 2027 03:17:55,760 --> 03:18:02,160 can't have a a asphalt plan even though you got one out there that we approved 2028 03:18:00,239 --> 03:18:07,680 and you've got all your permits and it's been up and operated." That's that's the 2029 03:18:04,720 --> 03:18:12,680 that's the the fact situation in Wen and that's not the fact situation before 2030 03:18:09,680 --> 03:18:12,680 you. 2031 03:18:14,000 --> 03:18:17,239 Thank you. 2032 03:18:18,399 --> 03:18:24,760 Any other questions either for the town or the 2033 03:18:57,359 --> 03:19:02,880 Can I just add a point of clarification, Mr. Chair? 2034 03:19:00,279 --> 03:19:08,800 Um, in response to board member Brandham's question, I would um I would 2035 03:19:05,600 --> 03:19:13,680 answer it differently in that um this notion of being a stop is that if 2036 03:19:10,640 --> 03:19:17,200 somebody went if had gone to the town and said, "We believe this to be a 2037 03:19:15,680 --> 03:19:20,160 daycare center when everybody knows it's a landfill and they get an 2038 03:19:18,800 --> 03:19:24,000 interpretation that it says it's a daycare center because there's some 2039 03:19:21,600 --> 03:19:28,319 rogue staff member and everybody knows that's a clearly erroneous 2040 03:19:25,800 --> 03:19:32,239 interpretation." then Ventor cannot go and rely on that interpretation that is 2041 03:19:30,160 --> 03:19:36,160 clearly erroneous which is part of part of what we're articulating here is that 2042 03:19:34,479 --> 03:19:38,800 no one really knew what the use was. We don't think it is part of the chemical 2043 03:19:37,600 --> 03:19:43,120 plant. We don't think it's a heavy industrial use. We think it's a a waste 2044 03:19:41,040 --> 03:19:46,239 related use. Um if you look at the definition, does it fit squarely? No. 2045 03:19:44,880 --> 03:19:50,800 Does it fit squarely into heavy industrial? No. It's not engaged in the 2046 03:19:48,520 --> 03:19:53,840 manufacturer. Um it's just on the property and in fact it it is not 2047 03:19:52,399 --> 03:19:59,040 accepting waste from the chemical plant directly. It's from the lagoon. Um and 2048 03:19:57,040 --> 03:20:02,040 and and we understand that that is open to interpretation, but that is a 2049 03:20:01,040 --> 03:20:06,479 reasonable interpretation. Um just as a heavy 2050 03:20:05,040 --> 03:20:11,200 industrial interpretation is a reasonable interpretation. But in terms 2051 03:20:08,640 --> 03:20:15,439 of the town not being stopped in that line of case law, it's that if you're 2052 03:20:13,359 --> 03:20:20,880 told yes, yes, yes, and it's something that's clearly wrong because some rogue 2053 03:20:18,239 --> 03:20:24,640 staff member, the town then cannot be bound by what is clearly an erroneous 2054 03:20:22,800 --> 03:20:28,720 interpretation. The common example would be um in the context of notices of 2055 03:20:27,279 --> 03:20:33,680 violation. If someone is doing something clearly in violation of an ordinance and 2056 03:20:31,520 --> 03:20:38,160 it is abided, the code enforcement department never picks up. It it never 2057 03:20:36,239 --> 03:20:42,239 picks up. It cannot be then said by the property owner, well, you never enforce 2058 03:20:40,080 --> 03:20:46,880 it against me. So now you can't enforce it against me now. I've relied on your 2059 03:20:44,720 --> 03:20:50,479 lack of enforcement. Well, it's clearly a violation. That's not the dispute. The 2060 03:20:48,640 --> 03:20:55,120 dispute is whether the passage of time, the lack of enforcement. The issue is 2061 03:20:52,960 --> 03:20:58,640 not whether the interpretation is good or bad. It's just well, you gave me one 2062 03:20:56,960 --> 03:21:03,760 and I got it and I relied on it. This was a reasonable interpretation for the 2063 03:21:01,200 --> 03:21:09,760 town to have given in 22 and for Ventor to have relied upon and that is the 2064 03:21:06,239 --> 03:21:15,800 essence of our position. But what we're saying in behalf of the 2065 03:21:11,760 --> 03:21:20,399 town in response to what Mr. said is that there's no evidence before you of 2066 03:21:18,560 --> 03:21:26,160 really any reliance and if you're relying on on Wooten as as a statement 2067 03:21:23,760 --> 03:21:31,279 of the law, it's it's so much different from the situation here. Um, plus that's 2068 03:21:29,439 --> 03:21:37,120 where this part about the history comes in of of the property that it's it's 2069 03:21:34,960 --> 03:21:42,760 been subject to conditional use throughout its history. and and that's 2070 03:21:39,520 --> 03:21:47,439 something which in in asking them questions they really didn't look into 2071 03:21:45,520 --> 03:21:54,560 and so they should have known uh what the what the um zoning was. Um I mean 2072 03:21:50,720 --> 03:22:00,160 the zone there the UDO was in some places was changed from what it was and 2073 03:21:57,520 --> 03:22:05,279 we didn't even have a UDO if I recall back in in 2002. I think that came along 2074 03:22:03,040 --> 03:22:10,319 later, but it basically there was a a zoning ordinance and it basically said 2075 03:22:08,080 --> 03:22:16,720 that that for that type of property, heavy industrial in that location, um 2076 03:22:13,520 --> 03:22:21,040 that it required special use for any changes that were made to it. Um I mean 2077 03:22:19,200 --> 03:22:26,720 look, you can see like I say you all know what's out there and what's around 2078 03:22:23,040 --> 03:22:31,920 it. Um and um and so that that's why there are certain restrictions on what 2079 03:22:29,040 --> 03:22:36,560 you can do on on heavy industrial property is so that you know it doesn't 2080 03:22:34,399 --> 03:22:43,439 the zoning or the changes to the property don't impact the neighboring 2081 03:22:39,040 --> 03:22:48,880 properties in any um adverse way. And so that's why that's been that way. You 2082 03:22:46,000 --> 03:22:53,279 know, I can't say 60 years. I've only been doing work for the town for 30 2083 03:22:50,560 --> 03:22:58,640 years, but we I've been involved in some of the past stuff um that was um 2084 03:22:56,160 --> 03:23:06,239 involved in that property, but you you you uh heard from um from um um the 2085 03:23:03,840 --> 03:23:11,840 planning director that you know it wasn't just some tanks, which they tried 2086 03:23:09,359 --> 03:23:17,200 to say was just part of the chemical manufacturing 2087 03:23:14,080 --> 03:23:21,040 um process, but it actually involved a rail spur. 2088 03:23:18,560 --> 03:23:26,800 and changes to the parking lot and some other things. And those kind of changes 2089 03:23:24,399 --> 03:23:32,800 like changes to how you deal with your waste on site, you know, have to be 2090 03:23:29,439 --> 03:23:38,399 looked at um and and and need to be passed on um you know, through a public 2091 03:23:36,080 --> 03:23:44,239 hearing, which is what this the special use requires. So that's where the town 2092 03:23:41,840 --> 03:23:48,600 that how the town would answer what Mr. Theland has had to say. 2093 03:23:48,880 --> 03:23:55,040 Yeah. Okay. So, um I think we've been through all the process here. Uh the 2094 03:23:53,040 --> 03:24:01,120 board may have some clar clarifying questions um for you all. Um so, we'll 2095 03:23:58,000 --> 03:24:06,640 leave that uh sort of open for now. Um but the board attorney, Mr. Benoff, here 2096 03:24:03,439 --> 03:24:12,319 is going to give um the board a little direction on um a a finding of facts, 2097 03:24:09,520 --> 03:24:17,279 which is our next order of business. Um, so if you wouldn't mind, sir, kind of 2098 03:24:14,319 --> 03:24:26,000 helping the board navigate that item. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. Uh, thank you, 2099 03:24:21,120 --> 03:24:32,000 uh, Mr. Patrick. Uh, before I do that, let me say that talk talk to the parties 2100 03:24:29,920 --> 03:24:37,800 and their council about their record for a minute. 2101 03:24:33,479 --> 03:24:43,800 Um, I would consider anything presented tonight shown to the board, uh, like the 2102 03:24:41,880 --> 03:24:49,560 powerpoints, um, from both parties as part of the 2103 03:24:46,760 --> 03:24:54,640 record. The UDO is certainly part of the record. 2104 03:24:51,239 --> 03:25:00,160 Uh, the staff report is was moved into evidence. 2105 03:24:56,239 --> 03:25:07,319 There was discussion of the 2002 permit uh which is not in the record because it 2106 03:25:02,399 --> 03:25:15,200 has not been presented to the board tonight. So it it anything else any of 2107 03:25:12,720 --> 03:25:18,200 you want to want to submit into the record? 2108 03:25:20,880 --> 03:25:26,000 There's nothing from Ventor. Well, I'm not sure I heard the last part of what 2109 03:25:24,880 --> 03:25:26,000 you said, Mr. M Ben man Ben man Ben man 2110 03:25:26,000 --> 03:25:30,479 Ben man Ben man Ben man Ben man Ben man Ben man Ben man Bench are you saying 2111 03:25:26,960 --> 03:25:35,439 that the the prior um special use permit was not put in the rest record? There 2112 03:25:33,120 --> 03:25:40,560 was certainly testimony about it. We had testimony about it but but if you know 2113 03:25:38,080 --> 03:25:44,800 if Mr. Gordon would like to to hand it up well it can be part of the record. 2114 03:25:43,359 --> 03:25:51,800 We'll go ahead and make it part of the record. 2115 03:25:46,200 --> 03:25:51,800 Um please without objection 2116 03:25:53,279 --> 03:26:00,760 I would also move for the admission then of the UDO as it existed at the time of 2117 03:25:57,760 --> 03:26:00,760 2002 2118 03:26:00,880 --> 03:26:09,279 if one can be located. Yeah I I I I think that's reasonable. No no objection 2119 03:26:06,960 --> 03:26:15,200 both of them can can come in okay as part of the record. We'll admit then the 2120 03:26:11,439 --> 03:26:20,080 original application and the uh used UDO as it existed at the time. And just to 2121 03:26:16,960 --> 03:26:25,359 tie it up in a nice little bow u the index of record documents appeal 2122 03:26:22,640 --> 03:26:29,279 administration decision uh provided to the board date February 6, 2123 03:26:29,720 --> 03:26:39,520 2024. That was the full package that we separate from the uh staff report and 2124 03:26:37,279 --> 03:26:46,239 attachments. I I'm sorry. There's another set of 2125 03:26:42,720 --> 03:26:49,520 documents. You have those as opposed to the PowerPoint presentation. Right. 2126 03:26:47,840 --> 03:26:54,160 Right. Yeah, we have this, but it doesn't 2127 03:26:50,359 --> 03:26:58,640 have the It was part of this of the uh agenda package. Just want to make sure 2128 03:26:56,720 --> 03:27:04,359 that that's it's part of the agenda package. Okay. I'm I'm sorry. I don't I 2129 03:27:01,439 --> 03:27:10,520 don't have I don't have the agenda package in front of me. um that that 2130 03:27:08,399 --> 03:27:16,000 record that we agreed on was circulated prior to the agenda and I 2131 03:27:13,600 --> 03:27:20,160 think everybody received it. Okay, we did. So, all right. All right then. And 2132 03:27:18,479 --> 03:27:26,239 that's what he's talking about. That's separate. But the but the special use 2133 03:27:22,880 --> 03:27:30,640 permit from back in 2002 was not in there. It's not in that packet. Correct. 2134 03:27:28,560 --> 03:27:36,640 So, that's what we need to put in now. Yes. Um, so we're putting in the 2002 2135 03:27:34,160 --> 03:27:41,920 special use permit and the UDO as it existed at the time without objection by 2136 03:27:38,479 --> 03:27:50,439 either. Yes. Thank you. You may want to hand that up. Okay. Anything else? 2137 03:27:46,640 --> 03:27:56,880 No. Not about the record. Uh, okay. It's the board's task now 2138 03:27:54,160 --> 03:28:02,439 having heard the evidence and the testimony and considering what the sworn 2139 03:27:59,359 --> 03:28:09,640 witnesses said and the documents submitted to make findings of fact 2140 03:28:06,720 --> 03:28:15,040 uh that support your conclusions of law. Unlike your your typical cases for 2141 03:28:12,640 --> 03:28:21,399 variance, for example, uh where there are four conclusions of 2142 03:28:18,359 --> 03:28:25,800 law listed in the statute that you must find 2143 03:28:22,920 --> 03:28:30,080 for an appeal of an admin of an administrative 2144 03:28:28,560 --> 03:28:37,000 decision. There are 2145 03:28:31,319 --> 03:28:40,960 no uh criteria except those listed in this section of the 2146 03:28:41,640 --> 03:28:44,640 UDO 2147 03:28:46,760 --> 03:28:57,200 145.04.04 subsection D. And if you will see those 2148 03:28:54,080 --> 03:29:01,279 um they're very conclusory. The first one is the administrative decision was 2149 03:28:59,760 --> 03:29:06,560 appropriate considering the written record of the case and the evidence 2150 03:29:03,720 --> 03:29:13,000 presented and the decision reflects the requirements contained in this UDO. 2151 03:29:10,279 --> 03:29:19,279 Uh, I believe it's the board's job 2152 03:29:15,720 --> 03:29:26,399 to determine what is a fact from the testimony that you heard with 2153 03:29:22,439 --> 03:29:31,239 particular attention given to making sure that the 2154 03:29:28,040 --> 03:29:36,600 facts support your ultimate conclusion about the 2155 03:29:33,800 --> 03:29:42,920 appeals. And it may be that there will be several 2156 03:29:40,160 --> 03:29:49,160 several sessions of making of finding facts as you clarify 2157 03:29:47,680 --> 03:29:55,399 uh you know as as you clarify your thinking and 2158 03:29:52,080 --> 03:30:03,720 and uh and give it some consideration. I I would also say and 2159 03:29:59,239 --> 03:30:10,600 that it is within the board's power to stop the meeting at this point 2160 03:30:06,960 --> 03:30:17,439 or at any point. uh and make findings of fact conclusions of law 2161 03:30:14,560 --> 03:30:20,439 at another at another session if you wish. 2162 03:30:21,279 --> 03:30:28,520 Put another way, you're not you're not required to stay here indefinitely until 2163 03:30:25,200 --> 03:30:28,520 you're finished. 2164 03:30:33,600 --> 03:30:42,239 Is that Yeah. Thank you, sir. Okay. Um so yeah, you have the um processes for 2165 03:30:39,600 --> 03:30:46,479 the this review in front of you. Um happy to open it up to the to the board 2166 03:30:44,160 --> 03:30:51,680 for any discussion. We can take them point by point if you'd like or um but 2167 03:30:49,439 --> 03:30:56,720 really remember we're here because it's a they've 2168 03:30:54,040 --> 03:31:01,200 um they're appealing the decision and the decision that was made by the town 2169 03:30:59,439 --> 03:31:05,040 was that they required a special use permit. So that's the umbrella that 2170 03:31:02,960 --> 03:31:11,600 we're operating under. There are other facts that we may want to make clear. 2171 03:31:09,200 --> 03:31:14,920 Um, but that's sort of the the umbrella that we're under. 2172 03:31:16,239 --> 03:31:26,920 So thoughts? It seems um to be a fact that the 2173 03:31:23,800 --> 03:31:32,279 subject is a heavy industrial use based upon the 2174 03:31:29,319 --> 03:31:39,439 definition of heavy industrial from as part of the UDO which 2175 03:31:37,000 --> 03:31:42,439 includes the phrase processing of chemicals. 2176 03:31:44,040 --> 03:31:53,120 And down further in the definition again use in this category 2177 03:31:50,600 --> 03:31:58,960 includes establishment that manufacture or process asphalt, coal on and on and 2178 03:31:59,319 --> 03:32:08,239 chemicals that to me is a fact. The way I'm 2179 03:32:05,279 --> 03:32:08,239 reading this 2180 03:32:09,239 --> 03:32:17,359 information I think I would tend to agree with you. 2181 03:32:13,560 --> 03:32:25,120 So to clarify, are you saying that the that the proposed um solid waste 2182 03:32:20,439 --> 03:32:29,319 landfill is a heavy industrial use? I am. Okay. Yeah. 2183 03:32:30,080 --> 03:32:39,080 I piggy back off that you can say according to the UDO and that table 2184 03:32:34,640 --> 03:32:46,120 heavy industrial use requires permit in EC which is what that property has been 2185 03:32:42,160 --> 03:32:46,120 clarified as multi 2186 03:32:46,239 --> 03:32:50,640 I agree I don't think there's been 2187 03:32:51,319 --> 03:32:57,479 question but I think the question is 2188 03:32:57,760 --> 03:33:06,399 Did they get do they need a special program based on the email 2189 03:33:07,960 --> 03:33:12,239 from already approved 2190 03:33:17,479 --> 03:33:24,439 without knowing any of the things we were presenting did that say peritted 2191 03:33:22,439 --> 03:33:28,800 Bible said permitted the scream We've been told it 2192 03:33:27,040 --> 03:33:32,160 says permitted by right because that was the 2193 03:33:29,960 --> 03:33:35,520 interpretation to review these. I looked through the letters that are in this 2194 03:33:33,359 --> 03:33:40,800 package and the others. It doesn't say permitted by right. It just says it's a 2195 03:33:37,600 --> 03:33:45,040 permit use which coincides with what the table and the uses are in the UO. It is 2196 03:33:43,359 --> 03:33:49,920 a permitted use. It just requires a special use permit in order to enact 2197 03:33:46,960 --> 03:33:54,880 that constructibility. In the email from finer, it also said 2198 03:33:52,319 --> 03:33:58,640 any proposes must secure all approvals which in this case would be a special 2199 03:34:01,319 --> 03:34:10,120 use. And and to keep in mind part of this chapter 145 specific review 2200 03:34:07,920 --> 03:34:15,680 criteria for us is D2, which is the decision reflects the 2201 03:34:12,720 --> 03:34:21,920 requirements contained in this UDO. It's a specific requirement this board 2202 03:34:18,359 --> 03:34:21,920 must take under 2203 03:34:22,200 --> 03:34:27,040 consideration as this quasi judicial 2204 03:34:31,800 --> 03:34:39,040 process. So I I don't again I don't think there's any question that this is 2205 03:34:36,000 --> 03:34:42,040 a heavy industrial use property. I agree. 2206 03:34:44,720 --> 03:34:54,640 um based on the definition of water related which I'm trying to find that 2207 03:34:51,920 --> 03:34:59,120 water related and other and use related uses 2208 03:34:56,880 --> 03:35:03,680 you need waste do you have that definition can anybody find that 2209 03:35:01,120 --> 03:35:10,640 definition which one waste related the waste related use it mentioned that the 2210 03:35:07,200 --> 03:35:15,479 waste would come from others that's correct So there's not any waste coming 2211 03:35:14,560 --> 03:35:22,080 from others. The waste would be coming from 2212 03:35:19,040 --> 03:35:25,080 the subject going into the proposed landfield. 2213 03:35:27,840 --> 03:35:34,439 So find it for you. See if I can find it. 2214 03:36:01,600 --> 03:36:11,120 waste related use. There it is. Finally, um means a use category containing 2215 03:36:07,680 --> 03:36:17,960 establishments that receive solid or liquid waste from others 2216 03:36:14,800 --> 03:36:24,399 for treatment or transfer to another location and uses that manufacture or 2217 03:36:21,680 --> 03:36:28,399 produce goods or energy from the large-scale composting of organic 2218 03:36:28,439 --> 03:36:37,640 material. And it goes on to say uh and other uses meeting the definition of 2219 03:36:33,600 --> 03:36:43,120 waste related use according to the director. So based based on this 2220 03:36:44,520 --> 03:36:57,399 definition it does not appear to me or sound as if the proposed use is a waste 2221 03:36:51,200 --> 03:36:57,399 related use as defined in the ordinance. 2222 03:37:03,439 --> 03:37:10,960 And it seems as if uh the officer, Mr. Tom 2223 03:37:12,760 --> 03:37:24,279 Leser, seems as if that that that letter of consistency just wasn't 2224 03:37:19,399 --> 03:37:24,279 complete. It wasn't fully complete. 2225 03:37:26,040 --> 03:37:32,560 So then the director who has the authority to 2226 03:37:32,600 --> 03:37:38,080 interpret I would add the final authority to interpret 2227 03:37:38,279 --> 03:37:46,439 interpret the UDO in has made an interpretation in in 2228 03:37:44,720 --> 03:37:51,359 his letter any proposed use must secure all 2229 03:37:49,359 --> 03:37:55,840 appropriate necessary approval from all regulatory agencies for which as far as 2230 03:37:53,680 --> 03:38:00,680 it is would in my opinion include special use permit as their reason. 2231 03:38:02,880 --> 03:38:07,000 That sounds reasonable to me. 2232 03:38:08,600 --> 03:38:13,359 Sure. All right. 2233 03:38:14,840 --> 03:38:18,720 Regulations further down that 2234 03:38:19,080 --> 03:38:33,120 letter or over. No, there is no special district. No special exemptions, no 2235 03:38:28,760 --> 03:38:33,120 legal nonconforming history 2236 03:38:33,319 --> 03:38:41,960 on no outstanding zone violations the conditional or 2237 03:38:43,279 --> 03:38:50,399 yes. Yeah, sorry. That would be a that would 2238 03:38:47,359 --> 03:38:55,439 be a district that would have something that would be conditioned per the town 2239 03:38:54,000 --> 03:38:59,120 that would apply to multiple parcels that wouldn't necessarily be parcel 2240 03:38:57,040 --> 03:39:02,520 specific. That conditional special use zoner overlay. 2241 03:39:04,239 --> 03:39:10,239 Mr. Shaner, what's the date of that letter? There's a lot of letters. August 2242 03:39:07,840 --> 03:39:16,319 19th, 2022. I would imagine if this came in exact 2243 03:39:13,160 --> 03:39:23,520 shop this week, there'd be there'd be no question. Special use permit done deal, 2244 03:39:20,080 --> 03:39:29,840 right? I think so. But it didn't come into Zach's shop this week. It came in 2245 03:39:26,640 --> 03:39:33,880 long time ago. It was before Zach came in. 2246 03:39:30,920 --> 03:39:42,479 So, we're here to determine if they need it, if if they can get by 2247 03:39:38,319 --> 03:39:49,479 with what was submitted then or it has to go back through this whole process. 2248 03:39:45,200 --> 03:39:49,479 Is that correct? 2249 03:39:51,200 --> 03:40:01,200 Yes, I think that's I think that's correct that if they if the you if the 2250 03:39:57,439 --> 03:40:07,399 board finds that Shelley Deart's letter of November 15th, 2023, and I'm saying 2251 03:40:04,720 --> 03:40:15,479 the date from memory uh is not in error, then a special use 2252 03:40:11,760 --> 03:40:15,479 permit would be required. 2253 03:40:15,680 --> 03:40:22,200 And the UDO that's current based on what we heard 2254 03:40:19,560 --> 03:40:27,920 was August 9th, 2021. That letter from Mr. Leser is 2255 03:40:25,200 --> 03:40:33,840 August 19th, 2022, which means it would be in that ordinance that we've been 2256 03:40:30,560 --> 03:40:39,120 referring to. And as such, as an EC employment center, as it's listed on Mr. 2257 03:40:35,920 --> 03:40:43,479 Leser's letter from August 19th, 2022 would require per the table a special 2258 03:40:42,319 --> 03:40:48,080 use permit. That's that's how I interpreted 2259 03:40:45,760 --> 03:40:52,239 it. Yeah. And again, I I want to add that I think the August 19th letter of 2260 03:40:52,600 --> 03:41:01,040 consistency lacks some completeness. Don't disagree. Okay. However, however, 2261 03:40:59,200 --> 03:41:04,399 that second sentence, any proposed use, and I think you said this, Kevin, must 2262 03:41:02,720 --> 03:41:07,840 secure all appropriate and necessary approval from all regulatory agencies 2263 03:41:06,000 --> 03:41:12,800 for which the parcel is located. And then the last sentence on the paragraph 2264 03:41:10,560 --> 03:41:18,439 on the first page, last paragraph, the property is governed by the rules and 2265 03:41:14,000 --> 03:41:18,439 regulations of the Harrisburg UDO. 2266 03:41:19,880 --> 03:41:28,479 So incomplete but uh mentions the other requirements. 2267 03:41:26,640 --> 03:41:34,640 There are other requirements in addition to this letter that was um issued by 2268 03:41:32,000 --> 03:41:38,160 someone who was not the director of planning and did not have the full I 2269 03:41:36,399 --> 03:41:42,319 don't think latitude to make a final decision. 2270 03:41:40,000 --> 03:41:46,399 At the same time, go going off of what Chairman Patrick said earlier, if they 2271 03:41:44,239 --> 03:41:50,560 were to list everything in the UDO that they have to abide by, it would be a 2272 03:41:48,479 --> 03:41:55,760 very lengthy document for review. And it's not on the town necessarily to do 2273 03:41:53,359 --> 03:42:01,840 that for every inquiry such as this. It's on the applicant to make sure that 2274 03:41:57,880 --> 03:42:07,880 all UDO, town, county, state regulations are in accordance when they going to 2275 03:42:04,399 --> 03:42:07,880 these things. Agree. 2276 03:42:25,840 --> 03:42:33,359 Um, so I think I mean I think we item number two, the UDO requirements. The 2277 03:42:31,680 --> 03:42:39,279 decision reflects the requirements contained in the UDO. So let's button 2278 03:42:35,760 --> 03:42:44,479 that up. We all agree that it's heavy industrial and he every industrial 2279 03:42:41,920 --> 03:42:49,359 requires a special use permit. Correct. Correct. 2280 03:42:46,319 --> 03:42:53,279 Um then the then the question becomes um again item one there record and evidence 2281 03:42:51,840 --> 03:42:56,920 the administrative decision was appropriate considering the written 2282 03:42:54,800 --> 03:43:07,120 record of the case and the evidence presented. So that's kind of 2283 03:43:02,239 --> 03:43:11,760 it's it's a sticky point for you. So can't build that 10story house next to 2284 03:43:09,359 --> 03:43:15,840 you. Can't build the 10story house. But you should have known you can't build 2285 03:43:13,359 --> 03:43:20,399 10story house. U clearly says you can't build the 10tory. You can't build a 2286 03:43:17,279 --> 03:43:25,760 10story house next to the property next to the property. Did you know did you 2287 03:43:23,840 --> 03:43:30,560 know did the town have an incomplete letter 2288 03:43:27,239 --> 03:43:30,560 perhaps? Did 2289 03:43:31,080 --> 03:43:37,439 Ventor hire someone that was competent and capable and understood zoning to 2290 03:43:35,920 --> 03:43:42,920 make sure that everything was on the up and up before they did this? Perhaps 2291 03:43:40,120 --> 03:43:47,439 not based on what I've heard. Did they review their existing 2292 03:43:45,439 --> 03:43:54,279 land records and realize that they were under a special use permit already? 2293 03:43:51,199 --> 03:44:00,319 And our Harrisburg UDO says that if you want to 2294 03:43:57,359 --> 03:44:04,640 make a change to any of your special use that you're under, go for it. You've got 2295 03:44:02,080 --> 03:44:08,399 to come back for a modification. Well, they did. They did. There was a special 2296 03:44:06,880 --> 03:44:14,399 use application, correct? And they've done it once. There was a recent What 2297 03:44:10,560 --> 03:44:20,279 was the date on that? Was that 200? No, you mean the 2002? No, not 2002. I 2298 03:44:17,920 --> 03:44:24,800 understood there was a recent. Yeah. Well, they were going to do a parallel 2299 03:44:23,359 --> 03:44:29,920 track. So, they did complete that special use permit at sort of after 2300 03:44:27,199 --> 03:44:36,279 process after the fact the letter of consistency, but nonetheless, it was 2301 03:44:31,840 --> 03:44:36,279 submitted was 2302 03:44:37,760 --> 03:44:44,640 I guess I was referring to the original, right? You're just 2002 when the 2303 03:44:42,640 --> 03:44:49,439 property's current. The property is currently under special use, which used 2304 03:44:47,040 --> 03:44:55,880 to be called conditional use. And the UDO says if you make changes to 2305 03:44:51,600 --> 03:44:55,880 anything, you got to come back. 2306 03:44:58,000 --> 03:45:05,279 I think you hit a key point there, too, is that it applies to the entire parcel. 2307 03:45:02,000 --> 03:45:09,720 It's not just one activity. It's it's specific to the whole thing. So, if this 2308 03:45:06,720 --> 03:45:16,000 were to go without a special use permit, any anything could be done out there by 2309 03:45:12,319 --> 03:45:20,880 right that wouldn't normally be allowed. Yeah. I mean that's I mean cuz I didn't 2310 03:45:17,760 --> 03:45:24,319 see any evidence that said no, we just want to talk about this little piece, 2311 03:45:22,479 --> 03:45:28,319 right? Or anything in any of the letters that said no, we're just talking about 2312 03:45:25,840 --> 03:45:33,279 this little piece. It's all everything was this is our site. The letter the 2313 03:45:30,479 --> 03:45:36,880 town sent was this is the parcel number. It was never this little piece of this 2314 03:45:35,040 --> 03:45:41,840 parcel or anything like that. It was this parcel and that's how Mr. 2315 03:45:40,000 --> 03:45:47,199 would interpret that as well as an inquiry to the pl providing the 2316 03:45:44,080 --> 03:45:50,239 information of the parcel specific 100 acres every time. 2317 03:45:53,239 --> 03:45:56,239 Yep. 2318 03:45:59,560 --> 03:46:02,560 Other 2319 03:46:03,000 --> 03:46:10,040 discussion any points that we that we need to make sure that we get in here? 2320 03:46:10,840 --> 03:46:19,520 Uh, Mr. Gordon or Mr. Theland, do do you have a copy of the appeal application? I 2321 03:46:17,199 --> 03:46:26,399 could take a look at it for a second. I do not. Okay. Mr. jobs. 2322 03:46:24,319 --> 03:46:30,359 I have it electronically. That would be helpful. Let's see. 2323 03:46:31,920 --> 03:46:37,840 He's checking BNC all the way. Yeah. 2324 03:46:40,040 --> 03:46:43,040 Probably 2325 03:46:43,880 --> 03:46:48,120 should see it here. 2326 03:46:58,399 --> 03:47:05,239 electronic. Yeah, I think it's I don't think I 2327 03:47:01,840 --> 03:47:05,239 printed out. 2328 03:47:15,680 --> 03:47:22,439 Hold on my hair. your question here. Maybe 2329 03:47:23,840 --> 03:47:30,680 you pull it out of there. I've got it, Al. I've got it in. 2330 03:47:32,640 --> 03:47:40,359 Yeah, I did print it out. Well, this is good to know. I couldn't figure out 2331 03:47:38,120 --> 03:47:45,120 interior. So, for future reference, this is all we looked at. 2332 03:47:42,479 --> 03:47:52,439 This section right here for the Was it is that all of it? Yes, there were some 2333 03:47:47,800 --> 03:47:52,439 tests. I don't know if you need 2334 03:48:02,000 --> 03:48:05,120 based on 2335 03:48:07,479 --> 03:48:12,880 this stuff I 2336 03:48:13,880 --> 03:48:22,640 did based on evidence that go down back Yeah, I want to make sure that you 2337 03:48:20,080 --> 03:48:25,760 answer the question. That was my gave me that 2338 03:48:24,319 --> 03:48:29,760 actually since you didn't use it, you can put it under that clip. Yeah, we 2339 03:48:27,680 --> 03:48:35,760 didn't get the application. Well, you got everything else. 2340 03:48:32,960 --> 03:48:41,359 You said those clips are hard. I'm ready. 2341 03:48:38,520 --> 03:48:45,080 Uh I want to make sure that that you consider and answer the questions that 2342 03:48:43,600 --> 03:48:51,479 were asked in the appeal. And there are two 2343 03:48:49,520 --> 03:48:59,880 uh the first one is is the August 19, 2344 03:48:55,720 --> 03:49:05,120 2022 letter of final and binding interpretation of the town's 2345 03:49:02,520 --> 03:49:09,120 laws that the proposed on-site industrial land anfill is permitted as 2346 03:49:06,960 --> 03:49:09,120 of 2347 03:49:09,880 --> 03:49:17,199 right. That's that that's that's the first 2348 03:49:13,399 --> 03:49:17,199 question. Yes. 2349 03:49:17,640 --> 03:49:28,840 Would you repeat it again, sir? Sure. I'm sure it's um is the August 19, 2022 2350 03:49:26,199 --> 03:49:34,960 letter. Uh, and that's the consistency 2351 03:49:32,600 --> 03:49:41,279 letter. A final and binding interpretation of the town's 2352 03:49:38,600 --> 03:49:46,880 ordinances that the proposed on-site industrial landfill is a permitted is 2353 03:49:43,600 --> 03:49:50,920 permitted as of right. Is that a statement? That was the 2354 03:49:48,880 --> 03:49:56,479 question that's in the appeal. Oh well, 2355 03:49:54,160 --> 03:50:02,880 so in other words, is the town bound by the August 19, 2020 two letter? And then 2356 03:50:00,080 --> 03:50:09,760 the other question is, is Shelley Deart's letter of November 15, 2357 03:50:06,680 --> 03:50:14,960 2023 in error or is that correct? And they're and they're related. 2358 03:50:12,239 --> 03:50:19,439 So, I don't the first question I'm not sure I buy the 2359 03:50:16,520 --> 03:50:24,720 framing because it says is the August 19th, 2022 letter correct that it's 2360 03:50:22,080 --> 03:50:29,359 permitted by right? But nowhere in the letter does it say permitted by right? 2361 03:50:27,359 --> 03:50:34,720 So, I I take issue with the question to begin with. Is the town bound? Let's 2362 03:50:32,560 --> 03:50:40,000 just say we set that aside for a second. Is the town bound by it? No, I don't 2363 03:50:37,520 --> 03:50:43,520 believe so because the UDO is about as crystal clear as it can be that it's 2364 03:50:41,600 --> 03:50:50,760 heavy industrial and heavy industrial requires a special use. That's correct. 2365 03:50:46,640 --> 03:51:00,920 I agree. And the second question was, is is Mr. Hart's letter of November 2366 03:50:56,120 --> 03:51:06,880 1523 correct or is it in error? In other words, is a special use permit 2367 03:51:04,040 --> 03:51:11,600 required? Based on the logic Lean Lean just described, I would say it is 2368 03:51:09,040 --> 03:51:16,880 correct. And just to be clear, it was a November 2369 03:51:14,399 --> 03:51:16,880 15th 2370 03:51:19,960 --> 03:51:27,800 email. Email. It was an email. It was It was an email, not a letter. 2371 03:51:57,840 --> 03:52:08,439 That's it. Okay. So, I think the board's um requirement then is to either 2372 03:52:03,800 --> 03:52:14,160 um approve or deny the appeal at this point. Um so, if there's a motion for 2373 03:52:11,359 --> 03:52:17,479 that or any other discussion, we can get into that. 2374 03:52:18,560 --> 03:52:30,600 Make a motion to deny the appeal. Okay. Do I have a second? I'll second. 2375 03:52:25,120 --> 03:52:35,640 All in favor? I I I Any opposed? One 2376 03:52:32,439 --> 03:52:42,319 opposed. Simple majority. The motion passes and the appeal is denied. Um, one 2377 03:52:40,000 --> 03:52:49,520 thing I would ask of the of the board is to um adoption adopt a motion allow 2378 03:52:46,080 --> 03:52:54,000 motion allowing the board attorney um to prepare the written order and that uh 2379 03:52:51,840 --> 03:52:58,800 the chair may sign the order outside of session so we don't have to come back to 2380 03:52:55,520 --> 03:53:04,319 another session to approve the order that he's going to write up for us. Um, 2381 03:53:01,040 --> 03:53:10,319 and so we'll need um we'll need a motion to approve that um 2382 03:53:07,439 --> 03:53:15,199 uh process. A motion for the chair to be able to sign the order outside of 2383 03:53:12,000 --> 03:53:20,319 session and and directing me to to prepare an order based on and that the 2384 03:53:17,040 --> 03:53:24,479 attorney the findings of fact that that I heard you make and and try to write 2385 03:53:22,560 --> 03:53:28,640 down. Yeah, 2386 03:53:26,080 --> 03:53:34,479 I have a motion on the floor. I'll second it. Second. All in favor? I I Any 2387 03:53:32,479 --> 03:53:36,880 opposed? Motion 2388 03:53:36,920 --> 03:53:46,319 carries. Okay, back to our agenda. Um, we have no old business. We have no new 2389 03:53:43,960 --> 03:53:50,640 business. Last item on the agenda is adjournment. Can I have a motion for 2390 03:53:47,840 --> 03:53:56,720 that? Motion to adjurnn. Is there a second? Second. All in favor? 2391 03:53:54,040 --> 03:54:01,880 I opposed. We're ajourned. And we sang the 2392 03:53:58,880 --> 03:54:01,880 spoonfuls.