this conference will now be recorded
and uh and where did that voice come
from
that that was me john i'm just turning
on the recording
part of our uh um system is that we'll
record these meetings and upload them
because we're not streaming this live so
we're recording the meeting and that was
me
don't you because we have had two
meetings before
without it being recorded don't you
think it would be
appropriate to ask this task force
whether or not they want the meeting to
be recorded
i believe it was included in the agenda
that
because no one can physically show up as
would normally be the ability people
could show up to a meeting because it's
published on our website
in lieu of that what we do is we record
the meetings and then
upload them after the fact which is one
step down from what we do with council
where we live stream them
and record them so this is kind of a
compromise because it takes less uh
staff to do this than it does to live
stream
nevertheless um i'll ask everybody
whether or not they have any objection
to having the meeting recorded
at this particular point uh it's bob
none
no objections hearing none we'll proceed
so welcome everyone for objection
um i'm assuming then that everybody has
a copy of the agenda so we can review
the agenda
anything that people would like to see
added uh and if they don't have a copy
of the agenda in front of them uh just
pipe up now and i'll make sure it's on
the
uh agenda it's bob i have uh one one
thing here
you have uh near the bottom of the
agenda draft final resolutions you have
two of them
uh tonight i'm going to propose a third
so i i don't know um
if i should just say give you notice now
that i will
propose a third uh uh final resolution
at that point in time thank you very
much
i'll i'll record that and we'll get to
that in order very good
so uh approval of the minutes from the
previous meeting
any uh any changes additions deletions
uh none in all moves that they be
approved here oh that's very good
uh second done
uh
so the general topics that have been
originally assigned to the task force as
if we need reminding of this
at this point are the ranked ballot
voting matter
and the ward system voting matter
in relation to the first of these
uh i just note as everyone knows
uh this was an option that has now been
foreclosed
by uh royal assent of bill uh
218 nevertheless
i have been advised uh verbally
by the mayor that in a report
which i'll speak to later which we will
uh
assemble up for tabling with council
uh we will uh
go through some of the pros and cons of
that and perhaps
uh as well uh reach a resolution
of the task force to advise council on
so it's uh although it's off the table
it's still on our table uh
does anybody have anything they'd like
to uh
in terms of procedural matters to uh
to add on to these two major topics
that we're uh still
being asked to report on to cancel
very good so uh item five on the agenda
is
i i wanted this on just to to
give the task force members a chance
just to
recap given the interval of uh
well perhaps half a global pandemic
in time to recall that i think we've had
um representations externally
to date only by uh
sharon martin who attended one of the
meetings
and ralph mantello who attended one of
the meetings
uh both of them expressed themselves
quite clearly
on the two topics um uh
neither of them to my knowledge i was
hoping peter
king would be on board to confirm here
uh none of them tabled uh
written remarks uh
so our our re recollections of those
will have to stand at this particular
point uh
as we uh make reference to them
in a draft report or we can we can firm
those up
if and when the opportunity arises to do
so
right but uh we've had uh
i think some discussion about both of
these topics
but i think it's fair to say that the
meetings in which the counselors
attended
were fairly general in nature and were
really
seeking the advice and opinions
of the two counselors uh and i think
those representations took up most of
the meetings as
in my own recollection of it
so um are there any other
comments that people would like to offer
at this particular
point uh stefan bob oh
peter king has signed on
if peter can hear us if you hit your
speaker button that would be much
appreciated
or that using the new word that's been
introduced to the english language
unmute yourself very good peter how are
you the evening
peter can you hear me
can anyone still hear me i i can hear
you john
yes joan
[Music]
well pierce if peter has the same delay
involved in his uh uh connections
uh then perhaps he will come live with
us
in a moment or two i think we all
experienced a little bit of delay here
right so that's john john
um may i make a suggestion in the agenda
we would talk first about ranked ballot
and second about award system voting
my suggestion is to reverse the sequence
uh my suggestion is that we first make a
decision
whether we would go for a ward system or
not
because that will strongly influence um
when we talk about the ranked ballot
uh i'm i i will i will uh
what do you think about that bob i don't
care which order
these are spoken about in particular and
i must confess
steph and you'll have to enlighten me
later about how
these are uh connected but uh yes
i gladly do that and you yeah
do you mind them being spoken of in in
that order
absolutely not no um
it's possible though that my suggestion
for a third resolution
uh makes all of this uh mute
but um you you've all received the
the material that i prepared with some
suggestions uh and some
information my feelings about ward
system so
i i'm happy to talk about it whenever
you want
yeah and stuff and i would um
i would um maybe interject
here that uh
i had a very enlightening conversation
with the mayor
who who uh let me know
that uh in her opinion
our uh forwarding to council
for their uh perusal
a uh a summary report
on these two subject matters in addition
to
any resolutions we may want to take on
these two items
uh is what uh would be most useful to
counsel
and uh and with that in mind maybe i'll
just
skip ahead just to put that into context
uh
stefan i i would propose
you know uh as one of the later action
items that
that i can at least um start
a you know a first draft of some sort of
report
which you know briefly
uh recapitulates the
pros and cons of these around these two
matters
and then deals with the matter
of resolutions that the task force may
take on that
now i'm getting a call here from peter
king an email
saying he can't connect
and uh although it says
he's connected here perhaps i'll get
back to him and just ask him if he would
try again
[Music]
please try again
assistant has uh vacated the premises
is is fred no gone still here
oh very good thank you fred okay
well maybe i should ask
him as well whether peter is hearing me
oh what
perhaps i should just give up yeah
uh now where am i
do you want to take a minute and see if
we can sort peter out john
he would appreciate it i'm sure i don't
quite
i'm sure you have his email so
so first of all peter if you can hear me
i see that you've got your mic
on uh but if
we can't hear you or you hopefully you
can hear us
try logging out initially and then
logging back in if you log in
please be sure you're using the chrome
browser
and we'll try that as a first step that
does
isn't successful we'll we'll see what we
can do from there
so please try to log out peter and
re-log in and ensure you're using chrome
as your browser
great and while he's doing that john i
don't know if you want to carry on with
the meeting or not
and i will email
so the reason i mentioned that uh stefan
is that
uh i think getting a report together
and uh especially in peter's absence
it wouldn't be appropriate for us to
move to
taking a resolution or a vote on a
resolution
on either of these matters uh with only
three of us
on board i mean we could do so but uh
it would be i think uh
impolite to peter when all that's
standing between
us and communication with peter is
probably a telephone call
so uh ah looks like peter is tuned out
and may be tuning back in again
yeah yeah uh john um i
wholeheartedly agree with you and maybe
we can use the time
for me to give you a reason why i was
asking for the reverse
of the agenda
first reason is that the
ranked ballot is more or less an fyi
for our council because as we are by now
aware
that voting system is now illegal
or not possible in ontario so
the real decision the meet and bone of
the meeting going forward in the short
term
will be award system yes or no
if yes three or four wards
so once we get this behind us
then it may have some influence on the
ranked ballot
um because uh maybe
a ranked ballot system may be more
appropriate for a non-war
system or for award system depend
so my suggestion is let's uh
move on first with the discussion
regarding
ward system yes or no point two
three or four awards and then
go on to rank ballot that's just a
suggestion
that seems to me logical and uh
and clear i'm also basing that on bob
mcrae's
notes which he sent to us which i
absolutely like
and that totally makes sense to me
uh i hear yes stefan but i i i just say
once more
that uh i think we should have this
discussion of the ward system voting
yeah when's when uh sharon
and ralph mantello were visiting
and making their representations they
spoke
uh very emphatically against
a award voting system and
has given us at least the rudimentary
rationale for why they thought so
to uh balance with that we've got
a very succinct uh uh description
by bob mccray of what positive merits
are in in his uh viewpoint so
um i i think
we can frame up the pros and cons
in a kind of a report manner but we're
still
i think going to uh
not be able to resolve the matter of
reward system voting in terms of a
resolution from the task force
without peter on board i just don't
think when we're
down from five uh
because someone stepped off the task
force to go down to
three uh just because of we're not using
a platform like zoom which seems to be
so much more efficient
so it's it's to penalize
uh peter john
i totally agree i totally agree and i
even
would even suggest uh and you make a
good point if peter is unable to join
i suggest we close the meeting
reschedule it
and i have to chuckle right this is one
of the things
where i'm torn between being a
politician and
the president of a private corporation
i have not been in a go-to meeting for
probably a year
so why is the public sector using a
technology
so yes let's resume meetings and let's
move on
you know i agree with these and this is
kind of like
the most primitive of the primitive new
technologies
yes paul so it's it's uh
grillman here yes so no
john i'm not i'm not going to entertain
uh stefan's uh
idea about cutting off at this
particular point
i really appreciate the fact that you
john creelman and sharon martin have
have uh tuned in to this meeting again
and i would like uh to at least
let us fulfill this item six on the
agenda
which is to welcome uh
john and sharon if she wants to uh
to make a representation on these two
subject matters
and to emphasize to both of you that
we would really appreciate those
representations
if you could as well send them to us
in writing in abbreviated form and i
will make sure that those
representations are reflected
in whatever draft report we bring
forward to council
so i'll turn it over to you john i just
wanted to make sure you knew the chair
was not going to cut you off
uh mid meeting i appreciate that
uh first and foremost i don't think you
should be feeling pressure to make
decisions tonight
on anything this is a process that may
take a few meetings to
to work itself out and
i am not of the view that you should
um be bigfooted by
the opinions of members of council on
this
issue including myself
uh you were appointed as an independent
task force to look at the issue
and to make recommendations to us uh
we can make submissions to you
and you are perfectly free in my opinion
to ignore them so having said that
i'd like to speak to the two
issues that are are before you number
one the the rank ballot
and number two the ward system uh the
rank ballot
has been um unceremoniously taken off
the
the table by the provincial government
and i think some background is required
here
uh it was originally provided for in the
municipal elections act by the former
liberal government uh the only
municipality to avail itself
of the opportunity to uh elect
a council by way of rank ballot was the
city of london
i think the consensus was
notwithstanding a little
a few bumps in the road it was a success
there were two other municipalities that
voted by way of referendum
to adopt a rank ballot
process in the next municipal election
city of kingston being one and i believe
cambridge being the other the actions of
the provincial government
and we have no idea uh who
prompted these they came from absolutely
out of the blue uh not only said that
ranked ballot was no longer an option
for anyone considering it
but it was no longer an option for the
two municipalities
that wanted to proceed by way of their
elector's will that being kingston and
cambridge and the city of london was
precluded from using the process
a second time
i'm a supporter of it i think that
it does a number of things and again i i
preface my comments by saying
that you're an independent task force
you can make whatever recommendations
you wish to counsel
and i don't want to give you the
impression that you have to follow
the submissions of individual members of
council here
but red ballot has not true because you
said that twice now john let me just
tell you that you are not to mistake
my politeness with counselor
for any agreement with their positions
on my part
okay fair enough uh just back to rank
ballot
uh ranked ballot in one form or another
is used
all over the world uh it has
several different approaches one is
the election runoff where a candidate
does not acquire 50 percent and there is
a second round of voting
we are witnessing that in the state of
georgia as we speak
uh ranked ballot is used in the state of
maine that's a two-round election
like they're running georgia right now
like they run in french
france for the presidential elections
that is not
talking about we're talking about uh
the principle is the same it is somebody
has to get
more than 50 of the vote
uh and the the mechanism to get there is
different
you can have a runoff election or you
can have a ranked ballot that allocates
votes
but the principle is the same and i say
this only because
this is not some kind of foreign or
strange
alien process
it's used worldwide yes the goal is the
same i agree with you on that
the goal is the same exactly uh the
other thing that
rank ballot has demonstrated time and
time again
is that it it uh encourages
more people to run uh people
think uh maybe incorrectly that they
stand a better chance
of getting elected through a ranked
ballot
situation uh where
second choice is given credit uh as
opposed to being
totally ignored then a first pass the
pro
first pass the pro opposed process
the other thing that rank ballot does is
that it
encourages a civilized election
and as much as everyone is trying to be
everyone the second choice of
the electorate okay so you're not only
campaigning in your own right
but you're trying to demonstrate to the
electorate
that if not you then
if not somebody else then you should be
getting everyone else's
second vote so i think it has many
uh advantages it doesn't always come
into play
in as much as if you've only got two
people running against each other
the issue is mute if you have three
people or four people running for the
same position
it may well engage in a circumstance
where somebody does not achieve fifty
percent of the vote
uh in the first instance so
uh and finally i'd say that the argument
that we are too
small or we have too few electors
uh i don't think really frankly applies
um i'm always concerned with our first
pass the post
process when somebody can get
70 of the vote as i did in the last
election
with only 30 of the electorate
or somebody gets 50 of the
vote with only 30 of the electorate
or 45 of the vote with
30 percent of the electorate it is
it is not a system that is is sustained
is sustaining in my view so that's all
i'm going to say about the rank ballot
um it is we are precluded from doing it
but we are not precluded from asking
our electors in the next election by way
of a
referendum question whether we
should be able to do it and i would
point out that municipalities
across ontario took huge offense
at the fact of being told by the
province
that this was notable to them not that
they were thinking about it not that
they would ever do it
but the fact that the province took the
option
off the table second submission i'd make
on the ward system is that
i think the task force should look at it
it should not discard it outright
there is a concept in political science
known as communities of interest
and in mono we have at least
two separate distinct communities of
interest
the rural portions of our town and the
the
urbanized portions of our town the
settlement areas
and the question that i think needs to
be answered
is whether or not the
those areas should somehow be
represented
by individual counselors
who speak to those issues specifically
i've looked at bob's mapping
and i would lean towards personally the
three-ward system because we have three
counselors
at large and
i would not necessarily go with the
the way he's drawn it up but i think you
could look at the town from the
standpoint of the north end
the middle end and the south end so i'd
simply leave it there but it is not
an issue or a subject that should be
easily dismissed
because we are content with how we
are proceeding currently i think that
the south end
feels disenfranchised i certainly heard
that
during the election and i hear it
virtually every week
as the deputy reeve deputy mayor i
should say
anyways i'm flashback you're dating
yourself yeah i'm going to leave it at
that i don't want to
say anything more because as i say i
think you people can
sort this out but i think that at a
minimum
the issue of the ranked ballot should be
subject to a referendum question
in the next election if not the issue if
you cannot come to a conclusion about a
ward
system i think that that should be the
subject of a question as well at an
absolute minimum
so i take it from your remarks uh john
that
you seem to be in support of a
three-ward system
for mono i i would i
would yeah i would i would say so at
this point i think it is worthy of
investigation
i mean there's pros and cons depending
on how the boundaries are drawn
and depending on whether you're of the
view that somebody
elected at large is uh perfectly capable
of representing the entire town there
there are people who are of that view
uh and uh it it is arguable that that
is the case but i think as we become
more
urbanized in the south end the question
of award system keeps coming up keeps
coming up and i think we need to address
it
could i ask a couple of questions john
um
on the on the ward system you know um
i kind of took from uh
some of our earlier discussions that
there was a bit of a feeling that
uh that expressed uh
a contrary to what you're saying that
this was
getting getting towards a little bit of
identity politics and that
it's it's there's settlement and there's
rural and
and uh while that would be the direction
we're all going these days
i wondered do you not see any other
particular uh identities
in modal that similarly deserve
representation i i i think in particular
of
of lumping all of rural together
uh whereas within rural there is a farm
community
and there is a non-farm community i
think as well of
the the tricky matter of the of the ward
possible ward boundaries in as much as
you know uh our camilla and mortal
center
settlement areas or or
they just get put in with rural uh so
uh uh i just asked if you might have
thought of these
two things john yeah um
i have and um i think that
you know any any ward system is
arbitrary by nature
um i think you have to avoid
a situation where you're potentially
gerrymandering um but you're
if you if you apply the concept of
community of interest
um my experience in nearly 30 years in
in comic life and mono is that we have a
very distinct
community of interest uh with regard to
the north end of the town
with the center and now with the south
and given
the way in which it's been built up i
think you could have a
functional ward system
respecting those three communities of
interest
and of course we would capture very
small
settlement areas uh insofar as the north
end would have rosemont
the center would have camilla and mono
center
but the the the
reality of counsel is that
at the end of the day we all have to be
collaborative
and we all have to um respect
where each other is coming from
so you're never going to get a situation
where the person who is representing
the uh settlement area um
is going to be simply a one-track
one-trick
pony they're going to have to recognize
the interests and
concerns of the center of the town and
the north end
and likewise the person who is elected
in a northern
ward is going to have to be sensitive to
the issues
of the people in the seventh end of the
town in the subdivisions
so at the end of the day it all works
out i guess what i'm trying to say
good i thank you very much john can i
ask you
oh sorry just i was just going to ask
john
one more question about the the ranked
ballot matter
so um i got quite interested in the
ranked ballot piece
when uh doug ford's uh progressive
conservative party used it
in their uh election rather than them
using the old-fashioned canadian
party leadership election style which
uh does uh is one of those
those other approaches that has to
yield eventually more than 50 percent so
i i wondered immediately after that
particular election
why the candidate who
ended up last um
was uh feted in the media uh
having decided the the final outcome and
and
of course when i when i then turned to
the guideline
on uh on ranked ballot voting
i uh went with some particular
uh i don't know care through the
the technical description of how
all of the voting takes place what is
counted
who gets to vote whose second votes get
to be counted etc etc etc
and i reached i just i'm just not going
to get into the detail of this
john but and i could share this with you
i shared it with the other task force
members i
i came to a particular conclusion
on the matters of both fairness and
comprehensibility
and uh and i got some really healthy
and uh uh pushback from bob mcrae
uh telling me that no i was mistaken
that in fact
the voting took place in this particular
manner rather than how i read it and we
went back
several times back and forth on it and
my final conclusion really was that uh
how to uh over-educated individuals like
bob mccray and myself could read the
same
you know pages four through eight
of this guideline on how to count the
votes
and opposing views of what they actually
meant
which sort of reconfirmed me and the
idea that
it might not be possible to actually
explain to mere mortals
how their votes are counted
in a ranked ballot voting i think
essentially
you know my question to you john is do
you think you can explain it
to a voter uh say over the course of a
of uh you know a uh a coffee
say because i
could not in all conscience without
having the guideline in front of me
going through it i could not explain how
the voting takes place
you make a valid valid point i'd say a
couple of things
if you think rank ballot is complicated
remember the concept of proportional
representation
which was floated almost 20 years ago
that was even more
you know mind-numbing in terms of
of explanation and that went down
that went down to defeat in a referendum
uh poorly defended in ontario and i
think it went down
twice in british columbia uh the rank
ballot is
uh complicated but it's far at the end
of the day it's far more simple
um it essentially takes into
consideration people's second choices
well no no it does not take into
consideration
everyone's second voice the votes only
those
of the only those who voted for
candidates
who progressively get dropped off the
ballot
the the person who doesn't vote
who votes initially for the leading
candidate
does not get their second vote counted
okay i i i don't i don't want to get
too into the weeds on this but i'm
trying to simplify it
to the extent that people's second
choices
matter and
i i find it ironic that this has been
used in in
party leaderships but it is deemed not
to
be usable in a municipal election
uh my theory here is
that somebody woke up and said to rob
ford one day
that if ranked ballot took off and was a
success municipally
uh people would start demanding that it
be used provincially and if if not
provincially federally
and it certainly isn't to the advantage
of one particular party uh in as much
as were i a a green supporter my second
choice might be liberal
and if i was a liberal supporter my
second choice might be green
and guess who comes out with the short
end of the straw
so it has it has been shut down okay
so the best we can do is either ask our
electorate whether or not they want to
see it used
or not but can we use it the answer
at the moment is no but i think
it can be explained i think it is
preferable to the first past the post
where somebody can get elected
in best of circumstances with 15 percent
of the total electorate
votes that's no mandate i mean
nobody nobody can claim a leadership
role when at best they have ma managed
to convince
15 of the total electorate
uh to support them
uh i i i i agree with you on that john
um
so let me ask uh bob do you have any uh
questions of john to uh uh
take advantage of john krielman while
he's here with us
uh i i don't have uh questions uh of
john
um but uh what i do want to say
uh and and it's interesting and you know
that doug ford's been criticized about
the fact that
leadership conventions or his leadership
convention
used this i've been a member and a
participant
in the provincial conservative party and
the federal
conservative party uh for quite some
time now
and leaders have have been elected uh
uh uh to get uh insisting that they get
fifty percent of the vote
uh for decades now uh and
the the ranked balloting uh was simply
done uh to make it simpler i remember uh
some leadership
conventions where we voted once
uh and then uh the the the person
who got the most uh votes did not get 50
and we physically had to go back to the
uh
to the election hall and and vote a
second time
and then so you know this is not new uh
for those
sorry that's the more traditional
approach
is um you don't get it right second time
everybody vote the fact every
if the first time everyone again votes
the second time
exactly what i what i do want to uh to
say and and
uh you you have the material that i put
together on this and
um uh you know john's thought
uh you know i i did two two uh
uh alternates uh uh so
as a discussion point three-ward system
four-word system
uh four-ward system uh i mean i'm not
proposing that we
increase the number of people on mono
council
and and the the whole thought of a mayor
appointing a deputy mayor i'm not sure
that's the right way to do it
i think john's idea about
a different three-ward system is a good
one
and after this meeting i'm going to sit
down and i'm going to color up another
map for a different three-ward system
for our consideration but one of the
things and when i said
at the beginning of the meeting that i
was going to propose a third
uh resolution uh in fact is
uh similar to what john creelman
has suggested and and that is that
um i i don't believe that this council
um we know uh uh
their feelings on it uh they are not
going to
uh i'll put money on it and i'm not a
betting man uh
but let's call a spade is paid they are
not going to vote to to to change the
system that we've got now
but what i would propose and what i was
going to suggest as a third resolution
which i think we should discuss at a
future meeting
is that the town of mono have a
referendum question
on the uh 2022 election ballot
uh asking residents a preference between
the current system award system or a
ranked
ballot system so john
brought that up uh so i think it's
appropriate that i
i bring that up now um it would be a
non-binding
referendum of course but it would give
the
the new 2022 council
uh some direction uh so that was going
to be my
uh my suggestion for the third you know
my feelings about
award system i've run in two elections i
will not
run in a third one uh but in both of
them i was quite vocal and
insistent the award system uh and you've
read my uh
words there ward system for balance
direct representation and mono
uh you know my passion uh that that that
is my first
choice but second choice would be to
have this as a referendum question in
the next election i've written that down
a uh a possible resolution to add
uh and for our uh later discussion when
we come to
to talking about uh resolutions thank
you very much bob that's a very good
suggestion
thank you
um it's a little known fact that the
town of orangeville used to have a word
system
100 years ago it had a word system
and i i'm sure the word boundaries made
absolutely no sense whatsoever
and they they stopped using it
they never passed the necessary
legislation to stop using it
and a mischievous lawyer about 20 years
ago
no almost 25 30 years ago
raised the fact that they had
illegally elected councils for
75 years without reference to the
the award system and a private bill was
had to be brought into the legislature
to to make it all
right um i found it amusing at the time
um but that's to say that that if you do
go with the ward system you have to to
draw your boundaries so as to
represent communities of interest
and the the boundaries have to be
you know explainable and rational uh
from that standpoint
just back to the ranked ballot
canada is the only country in
in the um uh
organization of um i forget the the
international organization
of economic development i think that
that clings to its first post
process every other country
has some form of either a second round
to achieve 50 or a ranked ballot
or a combination of both so we're we're
clinging
tenaciously here to a dinosaur
uh whose time is is running out
oedc i should say that's the
organization
um and uh in ideal world
can can i get your world
john i'm wondering if if i might uh
interrupt just to give a stefan a chance
to
uh follow up with any additional uh
questions john and just to let you know
i am going to ask you
to please uh
even if it's half a page or a page
because i would like to incorporate um
what you're talking about into
the draft perhaps not in exact
words but i will be able at least then
to be able to quote you on a number of
items sure let me fact check you stefan
is there anything you'd like to add well
just almost a direct question to john's
just recent
comment i didn't quite understand it
because
it depends obviously on the level of
election
but when you look at the highest level
what we would call a federal election
actually most oecd
countries use the first pastor post like
the united states like france
like the united kingdom um that is a
traditional system it's more like the
younger democracies
such as germany latin america
eastern europe they use a far advanced
system
to properly elect their parliaments so
um
but it also makes a difference right a
system
how to elect your federal parliament may
be
different how to vote for a you know
small municipal parliament which
represents only let's say i don't know 5
000 people
so i'm not sure whether a direct
comparison between the highest level and
the lowest level of election
makes sense in that context
that's very very serious
stefan you're actually correct um and
the oecd comparison uh
works to a point uh to take united
states as an example
uh the only exception is in the state of
maine
where they do a rank ballot but
that throws a spanner in the argument
that
the united states is a pure first pass
the post democracy uh
in canada we are a pure first past
opposed democracy and uh
in in germany as you're aware there's
there's uh
uh allocation of uh of uh seats in the
bundestag um dependent on the percentage
of uh
votes garnered by a particular party i
think that
the level is 20 if my memory serves me
right
um but you know my my
only point here is that we've got to
evolve and move on from from what we're
currently doing
uh because frankly it has no credibility
and
increasingly less credibility
john thank you i i'll just
chip in a couple comments one of which
is that i
quite agree with everyone's sentiment
that
a leader getting more than 50
50 plus one of the votes cast
would be a great world to live in and uh
i i i personally am a fan of two round
elections
i'm a fan of the old fashioned canadian
party leadership approach
uh vote absolutely guaranteed 50
plus one uh at any rate i
i will by exchange with you john
and just for your own amusement i will
uh
when i get your your comments on uh
first
uh on the ranked ballot voting i will i
will flip you a copy of my
uh uh obscure
uh calculations of unfairness but uh
okay nevertheless i think what what what
i perceive here
is that with this discussion and with
our previous discussions
and with bob's a paper and with uh
perhaps
with my notes as well on ranked ballot
voting
i'm beginning to see the shape of a
draft report
that that is framed really around
those two subject matters as a whole
and can put forward uh positive
uh arguments on both sides of each of
those questions
and then proceeds to distill
through resolutions uh task towards
uh resolutions on both matters uh and
perhaps with the addition of the third
matter
that bob uh ron raised
about a uh referendum
thanks and i'm gonna i'm gonna sign out
now but one thing to
to consider as well is i think council
council would be well welcoming a
recommendation to um affirm the
uh or not uh the process of election i.e
the
internet that we used last time uh
coupled with
uh in-person voting at the town hall
and certainly would welcome any
recommendations that you would make with
regard to
increasing vote voter turnout uh voter
engagement uh
from in in so in so far as the process
of voting is concerned
uh any of those things i think are are
within within your mandate
personally i like the internet voting
but it has to have a backstop
uh in terms of in-person uh
opportunity as well but i'll just leave
that with you and
and wish everybody a wonderful evening
thank you very much john
and i'll just finish by saying the
voting cannot be done
with go to meeting technology
they've changed the format of it and i
cannot navigate this
new um interface there you go it's all
there to help us
sharon as well
uh i can i ask you whether or not
you have anything additional to
contribute to our discussion
and secondly whether or not you might be
willing to
uh jot down a few of
your uh thoughts on these two topics
uh for our consideration for inclusion
in the uh in the report that we bring
forward
to council sure i'll i'll be really
quick
and um i i'll just
hit the topic the ranked ballot i'm
really uh i'm i'm waffling about the
ranked ballot
i'm starting to think that it might be a
good idea however
i don't it's fine to uh look into it
it's fine to study it
but right now it isn't going to happen
so
this can be background stuff that you're
doing
but don't spend a whole lot of time on
it because you're not going to be able
to do it
um as far as the ward systems are
concerned
um uh i would
hope if it ends up happening that it
would be like county council
where you come from different areas but
you're not
there particularly for your own
um business for your own
things that are going on in yours in
your municipality
you are there for the whole county and
it
would have to be the same way i don't
think you can do that
um with the structure we have now
at our table at our council table
i don't think you could do that i don't
think you can divide it up four ways
how do you how do you do that um
are the is the mayor running for one
area and the deputy mayor for another
and the three
the three stooges um are they running
for what
um i
i think that there's more to be done for
the southern area for
our southeast area and
more to be done in the sense that when i
was
in that area i had to convince
someone that they lived in mono
right absolutely i had to because
and they said oh no we're in orangeville
but and i thought how could you not know
that
but they pay their mo the way they pay
their mortgage through the bank
the taxes go they don't have anything to
do with it so they don't even know
anyway um that i ran into that a lot of
times
um and and i well okay a lot
so three definite times and a couple i
was pretty suspicious of because they
really didn't want to talk to me but
anyway um that's
neither here nor there uh i'm i just
can't get excited about a ward system i
i think that there are other things that
we can do
um to make things it's too bad we don't
have
um one of our buildings right there
in um one of the southeast
um areas one of our buildings so that we
could have
meetings there so um a town hall meeting
could be there so there are are other
things that we can do besides doing the
ward system
um i the
the last thing was something that john
said and that
was what i was going to say is don't
limit yourself
to these two things that we need to
discuss
internet voting and i thought it was
fabulous
and um i thought it worked really well
there are
very few hiccups a few people who were a
little
um boggled by it but really when you did
it
there was no problem at all and voting
in person at the town hall of course you
always have to have that bake up
back up because there are always people
who won't get it so
i i agree you still your mandate is
bigger
than the award system and the and the
ranked ballot and that's what i think
i appreciate that encouragement sharon i
i must admit
uh personally that i i i
balk a little bit around the question of
how to improve voter
turnout yeah if if five
uh politicians working
with the council of mono haven't figured
out how to improve voter turnout
not quite sure how our task force is
going to come up with any silver bullets
but you know i i i will not shirk the
question
i will include it in the report because
uh
you know what i'm hoping to do is draft
something
and then and then have bob and stefan
and peter
you know have the time to to think it
through
add to it you know and uh and then i
think
we can have another uh once we have kind
of a draft in hand
we can have a uh perhaps a uh
a more useful a task force meeting
where we we go through and kind of and
more
purposefully get on the same page with
each other about
uh what we want to take forward
that sounds that sounds really good
uh john can i say something please yes
sir
uh i i think uh to help focus um
our efforts here uh and i have put it on
on my you know i kept the purposely to
one page
uh there uh about the award system but
uh the the second main point there was
goals and benefits
so uh specifically in my case this was
of award system
uh and uh it's uh i have been a goal
oriented
a person for a very long time uh
and and um i've put down there some
some goals uh and the benefits
that i think and and i think that uh
whatever we're considering
uh it it's good to start with goals
and one of them that's been mentioned
here is is to increase
a voter turnout i may naively believe
this but but i do believe it is that a
award system could actually
increase the voter turnout but that
would only be borne out
uh if if we actually had that that
that's a personal uh
opinion about that so i i really do
think that that you know we need to
to look at at those goals um i
i i have put down here my feelings on
this
and some people may disagree uh that
those are in fact
valid goals here um the the ranked
ballot
system uh we're we're discussing it
because it is one that is used or has
been used in different countries and the
like
um as as i see it um
to for my way of thinking for mono uh
that's nothing more than tinkering
and uh for my way of thinking in fact
does not achieve the goals or the
benefits that i think are
right i have said it in an email
to the the committee members i'll say it
here now because this is being recorded
that a ranked ballot uh voting system
in the 2018 election would not have made
one a bit of difference because the the
three incumbents who were elected
uh got more than 50 percent of of
the vote were cast yes no it would not
have made any difference whatsoever
there would not not have been a second
round of counting
that that that's interesting that you
brought that up i didn't want to say
that
but but um you know fred and i tied with
26
point something percent and ralph was
ahead of us
so you know it it just uh
i i can't see how you could get that how
it would change anything
to have a ranked ballot in the church
it would not have made any difference at
all the three of you got over 50 percent
of the votes that were cast
yeah could i just add there didn't um
wasn't it fred simpson who did the math
going back
to all the elections since 1974
and made the same point i
i i remember something about that
memories getting
you know yeah it's so smart but i do
remember
yeah i it was something along those
lines
uh okay let let me let me
say this and and and it's an interesting
thing
i've lived up here for 25 or 26 years
uh it's an interesting fact in rural
politics
that uh and it's a known fact that the
incumbents
uh have a a huge advantage
over uh any challengers and that the
only exception
interestingly enough is the case that
happened in the town of orangeville
two years ago and where they were all
thrown out
all the incumbents were thrown out
because that
council was so dysfunctional that it was
uh
uh no nobody could ignore that fact
so all of the incumbents whether they
were good or not were thrown out
and a whole new slate uh but uh it is a
known fact uh
general again to repeat that that uh in
rural areas
incumbents by far have a huger uh
advantage over somebody new coming in
and and what can you perceive is the
problem with that
bob just so i get the point well uh the
problem with that
is that it discourages uh new people
from getting involved
and we had diane wansley uh
yo who bless her uh got involved in
in the last one but it it absolutely
discourages
uh new people and other people from
getting involved in it
and and that to me is a problem well
over that the only way we'd be able to
do it would be to have
we have to then have identity politics
around
newcomers and old comers
now so that the that older votes count
for older candidates or something like
this i mean
which i know you're joking so that won't
happen but
well right of course i'm joking but yeah
but
but it isn't it's a known fact well
that's right
i tell you uh from my point of view
who someone who lives on a farm
it's an operating farm we run our own
farm books
and i look around mono and i can and i
say to myself increasingly
you know um the the
farm uh sector
is very much different from what
you're characterizing as the rural
portion
oh no and it's in my books entirely
underrepresented these days but that's
again
that's a particular identity uh point of
view
john yes um
just further to what bob is saying the
first time i ran
um i've been here i've been here for
in the area for uh 50 so
i'll uh over 50 years and
uh i would say because
i was involved in other things
in the community because i was on
uh committees of the town
because i attended
attended council meetings and
took notes and talked to counselors
because
i was there that's what why i was
elected the first time i've got no doubt
name recognition she's part of the
community she did this she did that
that those are all things that are
important diane wansley is
case in point she is a fabulous person
and i would love to see her on council
not going to happen she's got three kids
now
but and they're too young so
um but those are the things that people
need to do
if they want to be on council if they
want to be part of the community you got
to be there
all the time
i hear you clear loud and clear sharon
and i really i'd really appreciate a
page of
of your thoughts written down just so i
make sure
that that is covered in our our draft
report because i
i really i uh i'm not sure that uh
incumbency uh is a matter that really
intersects
too much with uh voter turnout and uh
but uh both of these are matters that
we can touch on in our report sure thank
you
so um with that uh
with that said i think
[Music]
we've dealt with item six on the agenda
which is
and and five i think simultaneously
which is a pretty good discussion
of both of these topics and i've added a
few more
uh the next piece on the agenda is tasks
outstanding and i just want to
state again that i would take it upon
myself
if stefan and bob you're agreeable
to putting together a first draft
of uh at least you know a roughed out
uh table of contents and some items
around these
topics some of the matters that have
been raised and then i would get it to
the members of the task force
and we would uh add detract
uh and fix to the point where
we think it's worthwhile to have another
meeting and talk
about
[Music]
how our thoughts and advice are coming
together
bob uh stefan do you think that's a
reasonable way to take this forward
don't screw it to me stefan
thank you stefan yeah it's it's bob uh
yeah i i do agree yes
uh john uh i don't know what you're
going to include in that uh your next
point uh no tasks outstanding i will
well for example bob i would include
your submission uh i think almost
entirely and uh and identify it as as
work that you've done and and if you
want to
uh as you suggested modify it a little
bit
uh you could do that either now or when
you see it show up in a draft report
yeah i
i will draw up i i i like john's idea
about
rejigging a three-ward system so i will
uh draw up a different one for that and
i'll i'll send it in
to everybody and yes please include that
uh but also please i don't know you know
again the the draft resolutions the
the two here i i would like to see the
the third suggestion
about a referendum question on the 2022
yes so i wrote that down
and so in this draft report i will i
will again you know
towards the end of it include some draft
final resolutions
and that will be one of them so uh uh
unless we get any objections you know uh
in the intervening time i mean that's
that's what i would proceed
to include yeah perfect
yup great thank you well
with that uh having been uh
dealt with and um i don't think there's
any other business arising
we've added the item that bob wished to
under item eight on the agenda um
in in peter's absence i will try to
um i think we're supposed to come up
with some minutes
i'll put together something which i
hope is as brief as peter's were the
last time
and get that done uh and uh
get on to the uh the more useful matter
of of drafting uh something for us to
discuss
uh john if if it's okay with everybody
i'll i'll i'll
um i wrote down some words about the the
suggestion for a referendum
uh let let me uh send you an email with
a
a a suggestion of of how that that
resolution could be uh
written up if that'll help you
yes i've got jotted down here
something along the alliance of a
resolution that the town
consider a non-binding referendum
on uh what i heard to be a suggestion
around
almost all of these matters to do with
um ward
ward system voting or not or the current
system
and uh uh the current voting system or
an electoral reform
uh sorry a uh
system so that it's framed around
all of this subject matter so that if
the council in fact
doesn't wish to take any um decisions
but
wants to kick it further down the can
down the road
and they can do so through a referendum
yeah god i i think that that's good i i
did yeah i wrote the three down
uh the question of current system ward
system or ranked ballot you've said
those i think that's perfect
good i'll draft up something along those
lines
with that said i wish you all
a safe december
[Laughter]
thank you may we stay in the same color
whatever that color happens to be at the
present time
uh i hate hate to be the bearer of bad
news but
uh the word on the street is that uh
friday will probably go to red
well yeah