[0:00] this conference will now be recorded
[0:05] and uh and where did that voice come
[0:07] from
[0:10] that that was me john i'm just turning
[0:12] on the recording
[0:13] part of our uh um system is that we'll
[0:16] record these meetings and upload them
[0:18] because we're not streaming this live so
[0:21] we're recording the meeting and that was
[0:23] me
[0:24] don't you because we have had two
[0:26] meetings before
[0:28] without it being recorded don't you
[0:31] think it would be
[0:32] appropriate to ask this task force
[0:35] whether or not they want the meeting to
[0:37] be recorded
[0:39] i believe it was included in the agenda
[0:42] that
[0:43] because no one can physically show up as
[0:46] would normally be the ability people
[0:48] could show up to a meeting because it's
[0:49] published on our website
[0:51] in lieu of that what we do is we record
[0:55] the meetings and then
[0:56] upload them after the fact which is one
[0:59] step down from what we do with council
[1:01] where we live stream them
[1:03] and record them so this is kind of a
[1:06] compromise because it takes less uh
[1:10] staff to do this than it does to live
[1:12] stream
[1:15] nevertheless um i'll ask everybody
[1:19] whether or not they have any objection
[1:22] to having the meeting recorded
[1:23] at this particular point uh it's bob
[1:26] none
[1:27] no objections hearing none we'll proceed
[1:30] so welcome everyone for objection
[1:34] um i'm assuming then that everybody has
[1:38] a copy of the agenda so we can review
[1:41] the agenda
[1:43] anything that people would like to see
[1:44] added uh and if they don't have a copy
[1:47] of the agenda in front of them uh just
[1:49] pipe up now and i'll make sure it's on
[1:51] the
[1:53] uh agenda it's bob i have uh one one
[1:56] thing here
[1:56] you have uh near the bottom of the
[1:58] agenda draft final resolutions you have
[2:01] two of them
[2:02] uh tonight i'm going to propose a third
[2:05] so i i don't know um
[2:08] if i should just say give you notice now
[2:11] that i will
[2:12] propose a third uh uh final resolution
[2:15] at that point in time thank you very
[2:18] much
[2:19] i'll i'll record that and we'll get to
[2:20] that in order very good
[2:24] so uh approval of the minutes from the
[2:27] previous meeting
[2:28] any uh any changes additions deletions
[2:34] uh none in all moves that they be
[2:36] approved here oh that's very good
[2:38] uh second done
[2:43] uh
[2:46] so the general topics that have been
[2:50] originally assigned to the task force as
[2:53] if we need reminding of this
[2:55] at this point are the ranked ballot
[2:58] voting matter
[2:59] and the ward system voting matter
[3:03] in relation to the first of these
[3:06] uh i just note as everyone knows
[3:10] uh this was an option that has now been
[3:13] foreclosed
[3:14] by uh royal assent of bill uh
[3:17] 218 nevertheless
[3:20] i have been advised uh verbally
[3:24] by the mayor that in a report
[3:30] which i'll speak to later which we will
[3:33] uh
[3:34] assemble up for tabling with council
[3:38] uh we will uh
[3:42] go through some of the pros and cons of
[3:44] that and perhaps
[3:46] uh as well uh reach a resolution
[3:50] of the task force to advise council on
[3:54] so it's uh although it's off the table
[3:58] it's still on our table uh
[4:01] does anybody have anything they'd like
[4:03] to uh
[4:04] in terms of procedural matters to uh
[4:09] to add on to these two major topics
[4:13] that we're uh still
[4:17] being asked to report on to cancel
[4:23] very good so uh item five on the agenda
[4:26] is
[4:27] i i wanted this on just to to
[4:30] give the task force members a chance
[4:33] just to
[4:34] recap given the interval of uh
[4:38] well perhaps half a global pandemic
[4:42] in time to recall that i think we've had
[4:46] um representations externally
[4:50] to date only by uh
[4:54] sharon martin who attended one of the
[4:57] meetings
[4:58] and ralph mantello who attended one of
[5:00] the meetings
[5:01] uh both of them expressed themselves
[5:04] quite clearly
[5:06] on the two topics um uh
[5:10] neither of them to my knowledge i was
[5:12] hoping peter
[5:14] king would be on board to confirm here
[5:17] uh none of them tabled uh
[5:20] written remarks uh
[5:24] so our our re recollections of those
[5:28] will have to stand at this particular
[5:30] point uh
[5:31] as we uh make reference to them
[5:34] in a draft report or we can we can firm
[5:38] those up
[5:40] if and when the opportunity arises to do
[5:42] so
[5:43] right but uh we've had uh
[5:48] i think some discussion about both of
[5:51] these topics
[5:55] but i think it's fair to say that the
[5:58] meetings in which the counselors
[6:00] attended
[6:01] were fairly general in nature and were
[6:03] really
[6:05] seeking the advice and opinions
[6:08] of the two counselors uh and i think
[6:12] those representations took up most of
[6:14] the meetings as
[6:15] in my own recollection of it
[6:20] so um are there any other
[6:23] comments that people would like to offer
[6:26] at this particular
[6:27] point uh stefan bob oh
[6:31] peter king has signed on
[6:35] if peter can hear us if you hit your
[6:38] speaker button that would be much
[6:41] appreciated
[6:46] or that using the new word that's been
[6:48] introduced to the english language
[6:50] unmute yourself very good peter how are
[6:53] you the evening
[6:59] peter can you hear me
[7:04] can anyone still hear me i i can hear
[7:07] you john
[7:08] yes joan
[7:09] [Music]
[7:12] well pierce if peter has the same delay
[7:16] involved in his uh uh connections
[7:20] uh then perhaps he will come live with
[7:23] us
[7:24] in a moment or two i think we all
[7:26] experienced a little bit of delay here
[7:28] right so that's john john
[7:31] um may i make a suggestion in the agenda
[7:35] we would talk first about ranked ballot
[7:39] and second about award system voting
[7:42] my suggestion is to reverse the sequence
[7:46] uh my suggestion is that we first make a
[7:49] decision
[7:49] whether we would go for a ward system or
[7:52] not
[7:53] because that will strongly influence um
[7:56] when we talk about the ranked ballot
[8:01] uh i'm i i will i will uh
[8:05] what do you think about that bob i don't
[8:07] care which order
[8:08] these are spoken about in particular and
[8:11] i must confess
[8:12] steph and you'll have to enlighten me
[8:14] later about how
[8:16] these are uh connected but uh yes
[8:19] i gladly do that and you yeah
[8:22] do you mind them being spoken of in in
[8:25] that order
[8:28] absolutely not no um
[8:32] it's possible though that my suggestion
[8:34] for a third resolution
[8:36] uh makes all of this uh mute
[8:40] but um you you've all received the
[8:43] the material that i prepared with some
[8:46] suggestions uh and some
[8:50] information my feelings about ward
[8:53] system so
[8:54] i i'm happy to talk about it whenever
[8:57] you want
[8:58] yeah and stuff and i would um
[9:03] i would um maybe interject
[9:06] here that uh
[9:10] i had a very enlightening conversation
[9:12] with the mayor
[9:14] who who uh let me know
[9:17] that uh in her opinion
[9:21] our uh forwarding to council
[9:24] for their uh perusal
[9:28] a uh a summary report
[9:31] on these two subject matters in addition
[9:35] to
[9:36] any resolutions we may want to take on
[9:39] these two items
[9:41] uh is what uh would be most useful to
[9:45] counsel
[9:46] and uh and with that in mind maybe i'll
[9:49] just
[9:50] skip ahead just to put that into context
[9:52] uh
[9:53] stefan i i would propose
[9:56] you know uh as one of the later action
[9:59] items that
[10:00] that i can at least um start
[10:04] a you know a first draft of some sort of
[10:07] report
[10:09] which you know briefly
[10:12] uh recapitulates the
[10:15] pros and cons of these around these two
[10:19] matters
[10:20] and then deals with the matter
[10:24] of resolutions that the task force may
[10:27] take on that
[10:29] now i'm getting a call here from peter
[10:32] king an email
[10:33] saying he can't connect
[10:36] and uh although it says
[10:39] he's connected here perhaps i'll get
[10:42] back to him and just ask him if he would
[10:43] try again
[10:48] [Music]
[10:52] please try again
[11:02] assistant has uh vacated the premises
[11:10] is is fred no gone still here
[11:14] oh very good thank you fred okay
[11:18] well maybe i should ask
[11:22] him as well whether peter is hearing me
[11:30] oh what
[11:43] perhaps i should just give up yeah
[11:47] uh now where am i
[11:51] do you want to take a minute and see if
[11:53] we can sort peter out john
[11:56] he would appreciate it i'm sure i don't
[11:59] quite
[12:00] i'm sure you have his email so
[12:06] so first of all peter if you can hear me
[12:08] i see that you've got your mic
[12:10] on uh but if
[12:13] we can't hear you or you hopefully you
[12:16] can hear us
[12:17] try logging out initially and then
[12:20] logging back in if you log in
[12:22] please be sure you're using the chrome
[12:24] browser
[12:25] and we'll try that as a first step that
[12:28] does
[12:28] isn't successful we'll we'll see what we
[12:32] can do from there
[12:34] so please try to log out peter and
[12:36] re-log in and ensure you're using chrome
[12:39] as your browser
[12:43] great and while he's doing that john i
[12:46] don't know if you want to carry on with
[12:47] the meeting or not
[12:48] and i will email
[12:52] so the reason i mentioned that uh stefan
[12:54] is that
[12:57] uh i think getting a report together
[13:00] and uh especially in peter's absence
[13:04] it wouldn't be appropriate for us to
[13:07] move to
[13:08] taking a resolution or a vote on a
[13:10] resolution
[13:11] on either of these matters uh with only
[13:15] three of us
[13:16] on board i mean we could do so but uh
[13:20] it would be i think uh
[13:23] impolite to peter when all that's
[13:25] standing between
[13:26] us and communication with peter is
[13:29] probably a telephone call
[13:31] so uh ah looks like peter is tuned out
[13:35] and may be tuning back in again
[13:37] yeah yeah uh john um i
[13:40] wholeheartedly agree with you and maybe
[13:43] we can use the time
[13:45] for me to give you a reason why i was
[13:47] asking for the reverse
[13:49] of the agenda
[13:52] first reason is that the
[13:55] ranked ballot is more or less an fyi
[13:59] for our council because as we are by now
[14:02] aware
[14:03] that voting system is now illegal
[14:06] or not possible in ontario so
[14:10] the real decision the meet and bone of
[14:12] the meeting going forward in the short
[14:14] term
[14:15] will be award system yes or no
[14:19] if yes three or four wards
[14:22] so once we get this behind us
[14:25] then it may have some influence on the
[14:28] ranked ballot
[14:30] um because uh maybe
[14:33] a ranked ballot system may be more
[14:35] appropriate for a non-war
[14:37] system or for award system depend
[14:41] so my suggestion is let's uh
[14:44] move on first with the discussion
[14:46] regarding
[14:47] ward system yes or no point two
[14:50] three or four awards and then
[14:53] go on to rank ballot that's just a
[14:55] suggestion
[14:56] that seems to me logical and uh
[15:00] and clear i'm also basing that on bob
[15:03] mcrae's
[15:04] notes which he sent to us which i
[15:06] absolutely like
[15:08] and that totally makes sense to me
[15:12] uh i hear yes stefan but i i i just say
[15:16] once more
[15:17] that uh i think we should have this
[15:19] discussion of the ward system voting
[15:21] yeah when's when uh sharon
[15:24] and ralph mantello were visiting
[15:28] and making their representations they
[15:31] spoke
[15:31] uh very emphatically against
[15:35] a award voting system and
[15:38] has given us at least the rudimentary
[15:42] rationale for why they thought so
[15:45] to uh balance with that we've got
[15:48] a very succinct uh uh description
[15:53] by bob mccray of what positive merits
[15:57] are in in his uh viewpoint so
[16:02] um i i think
[16:05] we can frame up the pros and cons
[16:09] in a kind of a report manner but we're
[16:12] still
[16:13] i think going to uh
[16:18] not be able to resolve the matter of
[16:21] reward system voting in terms of a
[16:24] resolution from the task force
[16:26] without peter on board i just don't
[16:28] think when we're
[16:30] down from five uh
[16:33] because someone stepped off the task
[16:35] force to go down to
[16:37] three uh just because of we're not using
[16:41] a platform like zoom which seems to be
[16:44] so much more efficient
[16:45] so it's it's to penalize
[16:49] uh peter john
[16:52] i totally agree i totally agree and i
[16:55] even
[16:56] would even suggest uh and you make a
[16:59] good point if peter is unable to join
[17:02] i suggest we close the meeting
[17:04] reschedule it
[17:05] and i have to chuckle right this is one
[17:08] of the things
[17:09] where i'm torn between being a
[17:10] politician and
[17:12] the president of a private corporation
[17:16] i have not been in a go-to meeting for
[17:18] probably a year
[17:20] so why is the public sector using a
[17:22] technology
[17:24] so yes let's resume meetings and let's
[17:27] move on
[17:28] you know i agree with these and this is
[17:30] kind of like
[17:31] the most primitive of the primitive new
[17:33] technologies
[17:37] yes paul so it's it's uh
[17:40] grillman here yes so no
[17:43] john i'm not i'm not going to entertain
[17:46] uh stefan's uh
[17:48] idea about cutting off at this
[17:50] particular point
[17:52] i really appreciate the fact that you
[17:56] john creelman and sharon martin have
[17:59] have uh tuned in to this meeting again
[18:02] and i would like uh to at least
[18:05] let us fulfill this item six on the
[18:09] agenda
[18:10] which is to welcome uh
[18:13] john and sharon if she wants to uh
[18:16] to make a representation on these two
[18:19] subject matters
[18:20] and to emphasize to both of you that
[18:24] we would really appreciate those
[18:26] representations
[18:28] if you could as well send them to us
[18:32] in writing in abbreviated form and i
[18:35] will make sure that those
[18:36] representations are reflected
[18:39] in whatever draft report we bring
[18:41] forward to council
[18:42] so i'll turn it over to you john i just
[18:45] wanted to make sure you knew the chair
[18:47] was not going to cut you off
[18:49] uh mid meeting i appreciate that
[18:53] uh first and foremost i don't think you
[18:55] should be feeling pressure to make
[18:57] decisions tonight
[18:59] on anything this is a process that may
[19:03] take a few meetings to
[19:05] to work itself out and
[19:08] i am not of the view that you should
[19:11] um be bigfooted by
[19:14] the opinions of members of council on
[19:17] this
[19:18] issue including myself
[19:21] uh you were appointed as an independent
[19:25] task force to look at the issue
[19:27] and to make recommendations to us uh
[19:31] we can make submissions to you
[19:34] and you are perfectly free in my opinion
[19:37] to ignore them so having said that
[19:42] i'd like to speak to the two
[19:45] issues that are are before you number
[19:48] one the the rank ballot
[19:50] and number two the ward system uh the
[19:53] rank ballot
[19:54] has been um unceremoniously taken off
[19:58] the
[19:58] the table by the provincial government
[20:00] and i think some background is required
[20:03] here
[20:04] uh it was originally provided for in the
[20:06] municipal elections act by the former
[20:09] liberal government uh the only
[20:11] municipality to avail itself
[20:14] of the opportunity to uh elect
[20:17] a council by way of rank ballot was the
[20:19] city of london
[20:21] i think the consensus was
[20:23] notwithstanding a little
[20:24] a few bumps in the road it was a success
[20:29] there were two other municipalities that
[20:31] voted by way of referendum
[20:34] to adopt a rank ballot
[20:38] process in the next municipal election
[20:41] city of kingston being one and i believe
[20:44] cambridge being the other the actions of
[20:48] the provincial government
[20:49] and we have no idea uh who
[20:52] prompted these they came from absolutely
[20:55] out of the blue uh not only said that
[20:59] ranked ballot was no longer an option
[21:01] for anyone considering it
[21:03] but it was no longer an option for the
[21:06] two municipalities
[21:08] that wanted to proceed by way of their
[21:11] elector's will that being kingston and
[21:14] cambridge and the city of london was
[21:17] precluded from using the process
[21:20] a second time
[21:24] i'm a supporter of it i think that
[21:27] it does a number of things and again i i
[21:30] preface my comments by saying
[21:32] that you're an independent task force
[21:34] you can make whatever recommendations
[21:36] you wish to counsel
[21:38] and i don't want to give you the
[21:41] impression that you have to follow
[21:45] the submissions of individual members of
[21:48] council here
[21:49] but red ballot has not true because you
[21:52] said that twice now john let me just
[21:54] tell you that you are not to mistake
[21:58] my politeness with counselor
[22:01] for any agreement with their positions
[22:04] on my part
[22:06] okay fair enough uh just back to rank
[22:10] ballot
[22:10] uh ranked ballot in one form or another
[22:14] is used
[22:15] all over the world uh it has
[22:18] several different approaches one is
[22:22] the election runoff where a candidate
[22:25] does not acquire 50 percent and there is
[22:28] a second round of voting
[22:30] we are witnessing that in the state of
[22:32] georgia as we speak
[22:34] uh ranked ballot is used in the state of
[22:38] maine that's a two-round election
[22:42] like they're running georgia right now
[22:44] like they run in french
[22:45] france for the presidential elections
[22:47] that is not
[22:48] talking about we're talking about uh
[22:54] the principle is the same it is somebody
[22:58] has to get
[22:59] more than 50 of the vote
[23:02] uh and the the mechanism to get there is
[23:05] different
[23:06] you can have a runoff election or you
[23:09] can have a ranked ballot that allocates
[23:11] votes
[23:12] but the principle is the same and i say
[23:14] this only because
[23:16] this is not some kind of foreign or
[23:18] strange
[23:19] alien process
[23:22] it's used worldwide yes the goal is the
[23:25] same i agree with you on that
[23:26] the goal is the same exactly uh the
[23:29] other thing that
[23:30] rank ballot has demonstrated time and
[23:32] time again
[23:34] is that it it uh encourages
[23:38] more people to run uh people
[23:41] think uh maybe incorrectly that they
[23:45] stand a better chance
[23:46] of getting elected through a ranked
[23:49] ballot
[23:50] situation uh where
[23:53] second choice is given credit uh as
[23:57] opposed to being
[23:58] totally ignored then a first pass the
[24:02] pro
[24:03] first pass the pro opposed process
[24:06] the other thing that rank ballot does is
[24:09] that it
[24:10] encourages a civilized election
[24:13] and as much as everyone is trying to be
[24:17] everyone the second choice of
[24:20] the electorate okay so you're not only
[24:24] campaigning in your own right
[24:26] but you're trying to demonstrate to the
[24:28] electorate
[24:29] that if not you then
[24:32] if not somebody else then you should be
[24:34] getting everyone else's
[24:36] second vote so i think it has many
[24:40] uh advantages it doesn't always come
[24:43] into play
[24:44] in as much as if you've only got two
[24:46] people running against each other
[24:49] the issue is mute if you have three
[24:52] people or four people running for the
[24:54] same position
[24:55] it may well engage in a circumstance
[24:59] where somebody does not achieve fifty
[25:01] percent of the vote
[25:02] uh in the first instance so
[25:06] uh and finally i'd say that the argument
[25:09] that we are too
[25:10] small or we have too few electors
[25:14] uh i don't think really frankly applies
[25:19] um i'm always concerned with our first
[25:22] pass the post
[25:24] process when somebody can get
[25:28] 70 of the vote as i did in the last
[25:30] election
[25:32] with only 30 of the electorate
[25:35] or somebody gets 50 of the
[25:38] vote with only 30 of the electorate
[25:42] or 45 of the vote with
[25:45] 30 percent of the electorate it is
[25:48] it is not a system that is is sustained
[25:52] is sustaining in my view so that's all
[25:55] i'm going to say about the rank ballot
[25:58] um it is we are precluded from doing it
[26:01] but we are not precluded from asking
[26:04] our electors in the next election by way
[26:08] of a
[26:09] referendum question whether we
[26:12] should be able to do it and i would
[26:15] point out that municipalities
[26:17] across ontario took huge offense
[26:20] at the fact of being told by the
[26:22] province
[26:24] that this was notable to them not that
[26:26] they were thinking about it not that
[26:28] they would ever do it
[26:29] but the fact that the province took the
[26:31] option
[26:32] off the table second submission i'd make
[26:36] on the ward system is that
[26:41] i think the task force should look at it
[26:44] it should not discard it outright
[26:48] there is a concept in political science
[26:51] known as communities of interest
[26:53] and in mono we have at least
[26:56] two separate distinct communities of
[26:59] interest
[27:01] the rural portions of our town and the
[27:03] the
[27:04] urbanized portions of our town the
[27:07] settlement areas
[27:09] and the question that i think needs to
[27:11] be answered
[27:12] is whether or not the
[27:16] those areas should somehow be
[27:18] represented
[27:19] by individual counselors
[27:23] who speak to those issues specifically
[27:26] i've looked at bob's mapping
[27:30] and i would lean towards personally the
[27:34] three-ward system because we have three
[27:36] counselors
[27:37] at large and
[27:40] i would not necessarily go with the
[27:45] the way he's drawn it up but i think you
[27:47] could look at the town from the
[27:48] standpoint of the north end
[27:50] the middle end and the south end so i'd
[27:54] simply leave it there but it is not
[27:56] an issue or a subject that should be
[27:59] easily dismissed
[28:00] because we are content with how we
[28:04] are proceeding currently i think that
[28:07] the south end
[28:08] feels disenfranchised i certainly heard
[28:11] that
[28:12] during the election and i hear it
[28:14] virtually every week
[28:16] as the deputy reeve deputy mayor i
[28:19] should say
[28:20] anyways i'm flashback you're dating
[28:23] yourself yeah i'm going to leave it at
[28:25] that i don't want to
[28:27] say anything more because as i say i
[28:29] think you people can
[28:30] sort this out but i think that at a
[28:33] minimum
[28:34] the issue of the ranked ballot should be
[28:37] subject to a referendum question
[28:39] in the next election if not the issue if
[28:42] you cannot come to a conclusion about a
[28:44] ward
[28:44] system i think that that should be the
[28:46] subject of a question as well at an
[28:48] absolute minimum
[28:52] so i take it from your remarks uh john
[28:55] that
[28:55] you seem to be in support of a
[28:59] three-ward system
[29:01] for mono i i would i
[29:05] would yeah i would i would say so at
[29:08] this point i think it is worthy of
[29:10] investigation
[29:12] i mean there's pros and cons depending
[29:13] on how the boundaries are drawn
[29:16] and depending on whether you're of the
[29:18] view that somebody
[29:19] elected at large is uh perfectly capable
[29:24] of representing the entire town there
[29:26] there are people who are of that view
[29:29] uh and uh it it is arguable that that
[29:33] is the case but i think as we become
[29:36] more
[29:36] urbanized in the south end the question
[29:40] of award system keeps coming up keeps
[29:43] coming up and i think we need to address
[29:45] it
[29:47] could i ask a couple of questions john
[29:49] um
[29:51] on the on the ward system you know um
[29:55] i kind of took from uh
[29:58] some of our earlier discussions that
[30:00] there was a bit of a feeling that
[30:02] uh that expressed uh
[30:06] a contrary to what you're saying that
[30:09] this was
[30:10] getting getting towards a little bit of
[30:12] identity politics and that
[30:14] it's it's there's settlement and there's
[30:16] rural and
[30:17] and uh while that would be the direction
[30:20] we're all going these days
[30:22] i wondered do you not see any other
[30:26] particular uh identities
[30:29] in modal that similarly deserve
[30:32] representation i i i think in particular
[30:35] of
[30:36] of lumping all of rural together
[30:40] uh whereas within rural there is a farm
[30:44] community
[30:44] and there is a non-farm community i
[30:47] think as well of
[30:49] the the tricky matter of the of the ward
[30:53] possible ward boundaries in as much as
[30:57] you know uh our camilla and mortal
[30:59] center
[31:00] settlement areas or or
[31:04] they just get put in with rural uh so
[31:07] uh uh i just asked if you might have
[31:11] thought of these
[31:11] two things john yeah um
[31:15] i have and um i think that
[31:19] you know any any ward system is
[31:21] arbitrary by nature
[31:24] um i think you have to avoid
[31:27] a situation where you're potentially
[31:31] gerrymandering um but you're
[31:34] if you if you apply the concept of
[31:37] community of interest
[31:39] um my experience in nearly 30 years in
[31:43] in comic life and mono is that we have a
[31:47] very distinct
[31:48] community of interest uh with regard to
[31:52] the north end of the town
[31:54] with the center and now with the south
[31:57] and given
[31:58] the way in which it's been built up i
[32:01] think you could have a
[32:03] functional ward system
[32:06] respecting those three communities of
[32:09] interest
[32:10] and of course we would capture very
[32:13] small
[32:14] settlement areas uh insofar as the north
[32:17] end would have rosemont
[32:18] the center would have camilla and mono
[32:21] center
[32:23] but the the the
[32:26] reality of counsel is that
[32:29] at the end of the day we all have to be
[32:31] collaborative
[32:32] and we all have to um respect
[32:37] where each other is coming from
[32:40] so you're never going to get a situation
[32:42] where the person who is representing
[32:45] the uh settlement area um
[32:49] is going to be simply a one-track
[32:52] one-trick
[32:52] pony they're going to have to recognize
[32:55] the interests and
[32:57] concerns of the center of the town and
[32:59] the north end
[33:00] and likewise the person who is elected
[33:03] in a northern
[33:05] ward is going to have to be sensitive to
[33:09] the issues
[33:10] of the people in the seventh end of the
[33:12] town in the subdivisions
[33:14] so at the end of the day it all works
[33:17] out i guess what i'm trying to say
[33:19] good i thank you very much john can i
[33:21] ask you
[33:22] oh sorry just i was just going to ask
[33:25] john
[33:26] one more question about the the ranked
[33:28] ballot matter
[33:29] so um i got quite interested in the
[33:33] ranked ballot piece
[33:34] when uh doug ford's uh progressive
[33:38] conservative party used it
[33:40] in their uh election rather than them
[33:43] using the old-fashioned canadian
[33:46] party leadership election style which
[33:50] uh does uh is one of those
[33:53] those other approaches that has to
[33:56] yield eventually more than 50 percent so
[34:00] i i wondered immediately after that
[34:02] particular election
[34:04] why the candidate who
[34:07] ended up last um
[34:10] was uh feted in the media uh
[34:14] having decided the the final outcome and
[34:17] and
[34:17] of course when i when i then turned to
[34:20] the guideline
[34:21] on uh on ranked ballot voting
[34:24] i uh went with some particular
[34:28] uh i don't know care through the
[34:31] the technical description of how
[34:35] all of the voting takes place what is
[34:39] counted
[34:40] who gets to vote whose second votes get
[34:43] to be counted etc etc etc
[34:45] and i reached i just i'm just not going
[34:47] to get into the detail of this
[34:49] john but and i could share this with you
[34:51] i shared it with the other task force
[34:53] members i
[34:54] i came to a particular conclusion
[34:57] on the matters of both fairness and
[35:00] comprehensibility
[35:02] and uh and i got some really healthy
[35:05] and uh uh pushback from bob mcrae
[35:09] uh telling me that no i was mistaken
[35:11] that in fact
[35:12] the voting took place in this particular
[35:16] manner rather than how i read it and we
[35:19] went back
[35:19] several times back and forth on it and
[35:23] my final conclusion really was that uh
[35:27] how to uh over-educated individuals like
[35:32] bob mccray and myself could read the
[35:34] same
[35:35] you know pages four through eight
[35:40] of this guideline on how to count the
[35:42] votes
[35:43] and opposing views of what they actually
[35:46] meant
[35:47] which sort of reconfirmed me and the
[35:50] idea that
[35:51] it might not be possible to actually
[35:53] explain to mere mortals
[35:56] how their votes are counted
[35:59] in a ranked ballot voting i think
[36:02] essentially
[36:03] you know my question to you john is do
[36:06] you think you can explain it
[36:08] to a voter uh say over the course of a
[36:13] of uh you know a uh a coffee
[36:17] say because i
[36:20] could not in all conscience without
[36:23] having the guideline in front of me
[36:25] going through it i could not explain how
[36:28] the voting takes place
[36:32] you make a valid valid point i'd say a
[36:35] couple of things
[36:37] if you think rank ballot is complicated
[36:40] remember the concept of proportional
[36:43] representation
[36:44] which was floated almost 20 years ago
[36:48] that was even more
[36:51] you know mind-numbing in terms of
[36:54] of explanation and that went down
[36:57] that went down to defeat in a referendum
[37:00] uh poorly defended in ontario and i
[37:03] think it went down
[37:04] twice in british columbia uh the rank
[37:07] ballot is
[37:08] uh complicated but it's far at the end
[37:11] of the day it's far more simple
[37:13] um it essentially takes into
[37:15] consideration people's second choices
[37:17] well no no it does not take into
[37:20] consideration
[37:21] everyone's second voice the votes only
[37:24] those
[37:25] of the only those who voted for
[37:28] candidates
[37:29] who progressively get dropped off the
[37:31] ballot
[37:32] the the person who doesn't vote
[37:36] who votes initially for the leading
[37:38] candidate
[37:39] does not get their second vote counted
[37:43] okay i i i don't i don't want to get
[37:47] too into the weeds on this but i'm
[37:50] trying to simplify it
[37:52] to the extent that people's second
[37:55] choices
[37:56] matter and
[37:59] i i find it ironic that this has been
[38:02] used in in
[38:03] party leaderships but it is deemed not
[38:07] to
[38:07] be usable in a municipal election
[38:11] uh my theory here is
[38:14] that somebody woke up and said to rob
[38:17] ford one day
[38:18] that if ranked ballot took off and was a
[38:21] success municipally
[38:23] uh people would start demanding that it
[38:25] be used provincially and if if not
[38:27] provincially federally
[38:29] and it certainly isn't to the advantage
[38:33] of one particular party uh in as much
[38:36] as were i a a green supporter my second
[38:40] choice might be liberal
[38:41] and if i was a liberal supporter my
[38:43] second choice might be green
[38:45] and guess who comes out with the short
[38:47] end of the straw
[38:49] so it has it has been shut down okay
[38:54] so the best we can do is either ask our
[38:56] electorate whether or not they want to
[38:58] see it used
[38:59] or not but can we use it the answer
[39:03] at the moment is no but i think
[39:06] it can be explained i think it is
[39:10] preferable to the first past the post
[39:13] where somebody can get elected
[39:16] in best of circumstances with 15 percent
[39:20] of the total electorate
[39:23] votes that's no mandate i mean
[39:27] nobody nobody can claim a leadership
[39:30] role when at best they have ma managed
[39:33] to convince
[39:34] 15 of the total electorate
[39:37] uh to support them
[39:41] uh i i i i agree with you on that john
[39:44] um
[39:45] so let me ask uh bob do you have any uh
[39:49] questions of john to uh uh
[39:52] take advantage of john krielman while
[39:54] he's here with us
[39:56] uh i i don't have uh questions uh of
[39:59] john
[40:00] um but uh what i do want to say
[40:04] uh and and it's interesting and you know
[40:08] that doug ford's been criticized about
[40:09] the fact that
[40:10] leadership conventions or his leadership
[40:13] convention
[40:14] used this i've been a member and a
[40:17] participant
[40:18] in the provincial conservative party and
[40:20] the federal
[40:21] conservative party uh for quite some
[40:24] time now
[40:25] and leaders have have been elected uh
[40:28] uh uh to get uh insisting that they get
[40:31] fifty percent of the vote
[40:33] uh for decades now uh and
[40:36] the the ranked balloting uh was simply
[40:39] done uh to make it simpler i remember uh
[40:42] some leadership
[40:43] conventions where we voted once
[40:47] uh and then uh the the the person
[40:50] who got the most uh votes did not get 50
[40:54] and we physically had to go back to the
[40:56] uh
[40:57] to the election hall and and vote a
[41:00] second time
[41:01] and then so you know this is not new uh
[41:04] for those
[41:08] sorry that's the more traditional
[41:10] approach
[41:11] is um you don't get it right second time
[41:14] everybody vote the fact every
[41:15] if the first time everyone again votes
[41:18] the second time
[41:19] exactly what i what i do want to uh to
[41:23] say and and
[41:24] uh you you have the material that i put
[41:26] together on this and
[41:27] um uh you know john's thought
[41:30] uh you know i i did two two uh
[41:34] uh alternates uh uh so
[41:37] as a discussion point three-ward system
[41:40] four-word system
[41:41] uh four-ward system uh i mean i'm not
[41:44] proposing that we
[41:46] increase the number of people on mono
[41:48] council
[41:49] and and the the whole thought of a mayor
[41:52] appointing a deputy mayor i'm not sure
[41:56] that's the right way to do it
[41:57] i think john's idea about
[42:00] a different three-ward system is a good
[42:03] one
[42:04] and after this meeting i'm going to sit
[42:05] down and i'm going to color up another
[42:07] map for a different three-ward system
[42:11] for our consideration but one of the
[42:14] things and when i said
[42:16] at the beginning of the meeting that i
[42:17] was going to propose a third
[42:20] uh resolution uh in fact is
[42:23] uh similar to what john creelman
[42:26] has suggested and and that is that
[42:29] um i i don't believe that this council
[42:33] um we know uh uh
[42:36] their feelings on it uh they are not
[42:38] going to
[42:39] uh i'll put money on it and i'm not a
[42:41] betting man uh
[42:42] but let's call a spade is paid they are
[42:44] not going to vote to to to change the
[42:47] system that we've got now
[42:48] but what i would propose and what i was
[42:51] going to suggest as a third resolution
[42:54] which i think we should discuss at a
[42:55] future meeting
[42:57] is that the town of mono have a
[43:00] referendum question
[43:01] on the uh 2022 election ballot
[43:06] uh asking residents a preference between
[43:10] the current system award system or a
[43:12] ranked
[43:13] ballot system so john
[43:17] brought that up uh so i think it's
[43:19] appropriate that i
[43:20] i bring that up now um it would be a
[43:24] non-binding
[43:25] referendum of course but it would give
[43:28] the
[43:28] the new 2022 council
[43:31] uh some direction uh so that was going
[43:35] to be my
[43:36] uh my suggestion for the third you know
[43:38] my feelings about
[43:40] award system i've run in two elections i
[43:43] will not
[43:43] run in a third one uh but in both of
[43:46] them i was quite vocal and
[43:48] insistent the award system uh and you've
[43:51] read my uh
[43:53] words there ward system for balance
[43:55] direct representation and mono
[43:57] uh you know my passion uh that that that
[44:00] is my first
[44:01] choice but second choice would be to
[44:03] have this as a referendum question in
[44:05] the next election i've written that down
[44:09] a uh a possible resolution to add
[44:12] uh and for our uh later discussion when
[44:15] we come to
[44:16] to talking about uh resolutions thank
[44:19] you very much bob that's a very good
[44:20] suggestion
[44:22] thank you
[44:27] um it's a little known fact that the
[44:29] town of orangeville used to have a word
[44:31] system
[44:33] 100 years ago it had a word system
[44:37] and i i'm sure the word boundaries made
[44:41] absolutely no sense whatsoever
[44:44] and they they stopped using it
[44:48] they never passed the necessary
[44:50] legislation to stop using it
[44:53] and a mischievous lawyer about 20 years
[44:56] ago
[44:57] no almost 25 30 years ago
[45:00] raised the fact that they had
[45:04] illegally elected councils for
[45:07] 75 years without reference to the
[45:10] the award system and a private bill was
[45:14] had to be brought into the legislature
[45:17] to to make it all
[45:18] right um i found it amusing at the time
[45:22] um but that's to say that that if you do
[45:26] go with the ward system you have to to
[45:28] draw your boundaries so as to
[45:31] represent communities of interest
[45:35] and the the boundaries have to be
[45:38] you know explainable and rational uh
[45:40] from that standpoint
[45:42] just back to the ranked ballot
[45:45] canada is the only country in
[45:48] in the um uh
[45:52] organization of um i forget the the
[45:55] international organization
[45:57] of economic development i think that
[46:01] that clings to its first post
[46:04] process every other country
[46:07] has some form of either a second round
[46:12] to achieve 50 or a ranked ballot
[46:16] or a combination of both so we're we're
[46:19] clinging
[46:19] tenaciously here to a dinosaur
[46:23] uh whose time is is running out
[46:26] oedc i should say that's the
[46:28] organization
[46:30] um and uh in ideal world
[46:33] can can i get your world
[46:37] john i'm wondering if if i might uh
[46:41] interrupt just to give a stefan a chance
[46:43] to
[46:44] uh follow up with any additional uh
[46:47] questions john and just to let you know
[46:49] i am going to ask you
[46:51] to please uh
[46:54] even if it's half a page or a page
[46:58] because i would like to incorporate um
[47:02] what you're talking about into
[47:05] the draft perhaps not in exact
[47:09] words but i will be able at least then
[47:11] to be able to quote you on a number of
[47:13] items sure let me fact check you stefan
[47:17] is there anything you'd like to add well
[47:20] just almost a direct question to john's
[47:23] just recent
[47:24] comment i didn't quite understand it
[47:26] because
[47:27] it depends obviously on the level of
[47:30] election
[47:30] but when you look at the highest level
[47:32] what we would call a federal election
[47:35] actually most oecd
[47:38] countries use the first pastor post like
[47:41] the united states like france
[47:44] like the united kingdom um that is a
[47:47] traditional system it's more like the
[47:49] younger democracies
[47:51] such as germany latin america
[47:55] eastern europe they use a far advanced
[47:58] system
[47:59] to properly elect their parliaments so
[48:02] um
[48:03] but it also makes a difference right a
[48:06] system
[48:06] how to elect your federal parliament may
[48:09] be
[48:10] different how to vote for a you know
[48:13] small municipal parliament which
[48:16] represents only let's say i don't know 5
[48:18] 000 people
[48:19] so i'm not sure whether a direct
[48:22] comparison between the highest level and
[48:24] the lowest level of election
[48:26] makes sense in that context
[48:29] that's very very serious
[48:32] stefan you're actually correct um and
[48:36] the oecd comparison uh
[48:39] works to a point uh to take united
[48:42] states as an example
[48:43] uh the only exception is in the state of
[48:46] maine
[48:48] where they do a rank ballot but
[48:51] that throws a spanner in the argument
[48:53] that
[48:55] the united states is a pure first pass
[48:58] the post democracy uh
[49:01] in canada we are a pure first past
[49:04] opposed democracy and uh
[49:08] in in germany as you're aware there's
[49:10] there's uh
[49:11] uh allocation of uh of uh seats in the
[49:15] bundestag um dependent on the percentage
[49:19] of uh
[49:19] votes garnered by a particular party i
[49:22] think that
[49:23] the level is 20 if my memory serves me
[49:25] right
[49:26] um but you know my my
[49:30] only point here is that we've got to
[49:33] evolve and move on from from what we're
[49:35] currently doing
[49:36] uh because frankly it has no credibility
[49:40] and
[49:40] increasingly less credibility
[49:44] john thank you i i'll just
[49:48] chip in a couple comments one of which
[49:49] is that i
[49:51] quite agree with everyone's sentiment
[49:54] that
[49:55] a leader getting more than 50
[49:58] 50 plus one of the votes cast
[50:03] would be a great world to live in and uh
[50:06] i i i personally am a fan of two round
[50:10] elections
[50:11] i'm a fan of the old fashioned canadian
[50:14] party leadership approach
[50:16] uh vote absolutely guaranteed 50
[50:19] plus one uh at any rate i
[50:22] i will by exchange with you john
[50:26] and just for your own amusement i will
[50:29] uh
[50:30] when i get your your comments on uh
[50:32] first
[50:33] uh on the ranked ballot voting i will i
[50:36] will flip you a copy of my
[50:38] uh uh obscure
[50:41] uh calculations of unfairness but uh
[50:45] okay nevertheless i think what what what
[50:47] i perceive here
[50:49] is that with this discussion and with
[50:51] our previous discussions
[50:53] and with bob's a paper and with uh
[50:56] perhaps
[50:57] with my notes as well on ranked ballot
[51:00] voting
[51:01] i'm beginning to see the shape of a
[51:04] draft report
[51:05] that that is framed really around
[51:09] those two subject matters as a whole
[51:13] and can put forward uh positive
[51:16] uh arguments on both sides of each of
[51:19] those questions
[51:20] and then proceeds to distill
[51:24] through resolutions uh task towards
[51:27] uh resolutions on both matters uh and
[51:31] perhaps with the addition of the third
[51:32] matter
[51:33] that bob uh ron raised
[51:36] about a uh referendum
[51:40] thanks and i'm gonna i'm gonna sign out
[51:42] now but one thing to
[51:43] to consider as well is i think council
[51:47] council would be well welcoming a
[51:50] recommendation to um affirm the
[51:54] uh or not uh the process of election i.e
[51:58] the
[51:58] internet that we used last time uh
[52:01] coupled with
[52:02] uh in-person voting at the town hall
[52:07] and certainly would welcome any
[52:09] recommendations that you would make with
[52:11] regard to
[52:13] increasing vote voter turnout uh voter
[52:16] engagement uh
[52:17] from in in so in so far as the process
[52:21] of voting is concerned
[52:22] uh any of those things i think are are
[52:25] within within your mandate
[52:28] personally i like the internet voting
[52:31] but it has to have a backstop
[52:33] uh in terms of in-person uh
[52:37] opportunity as well but i'll just leave
[52:39] that with you and
[52:40] and wish everybody a wonderful evening
[52:43] thank you very much john
[52:44] and i'll just finish by saying the
[52:46] voting cannot be done
[52:48] with go to meeting technology
[52:57] they've changed the format of it and i
[52:59] cannot navigate this
[53:01] new um interface there you go it's all
[53:04] there to help us
[53:06] sharon as well
[53:09] uh i can i ask you whether or not
[53:13] you have anything additional to
[53:15] contribute to our discussion
[53:17] and secondly whether or not you might be
[53:20] willing to
[53:20] uh jot down a few of
[53:24] your uh thoughts on these two topics
[53:29] uh for our consideration for inclusion
[53:32] in the uh in the report that we bring
[53:35] forward
[53:35] to council sure i'll i'll be really
[53:39] quick
[53:40] and um i i'll just
[53:44] hit the topic the ranked ballot i'm
[53:47] really uh i'm i'm waffling about the
[53:51] ranked ballot
[53:52] i'm starting to think that it might be a
[53:54] good idea however
[53:56] i don't it's fine to uh look into it
[53:59] it's fine to study it
[54:01] but right now it isn't going to happen
[54:04] so
[54:04] this can be background stuff that you're
[54:06] doing
[54:07] but don't spend a whole lot of time on
[54:10] it because you're not going to be able
[54:11] to do it
[54:12] um as far as the ward systems are
[54:15] concerned
[54:16] um uh i would
[54:20] hope if it ends up happening that it
[54:23] would be like county council
[54:25] where you come from different areas but
[54:28] you're not
[54:29] there particularly for your own
[54:33] um business for your own
[54:36] things that are going on in yours in
[54:39] your municipality
[54:41] you are there for the whole county and
[54:43] it
[54:44] would have to be the same way i don't
[54:46] think you can do that
[54:48] um with the structure we have now
[54:51] at our table at our council table
[54:55] i don't think you could do that i don't
[54:56] think you can divide it up four ways
[54:59] how do you how do you do that um
[55:02] are the is the mayor running for one
[55:04] area and the deputy mayor for another
[55:07] and the three
[55:08] the three stooges um are they running
[55:11] for what
[55:13] um i
[55:16] i think that there's more to be done for
[55:19] the southern area for
[55:21] our southeast area and
[55:24] more to be done in the sense that when i
[55:27] was
[55:28] in that area i had to convince
[55:32] someone that they lived in mono
[55:35] right absolutely i had to because
[55:39] and they said oh no we're in orangeville
[55:41] but and i thought how could you not know
[55:43] that
[55:44] but they pay their mo the way they pay
[55:46] their mortgage through the bank
[55:49] the taxes go they don't have anything to
[55:52] do with it so they don't even know
[55:54] anyway um that i ran into that a lot of
[55:58] times
[55:59] um and and i well okay a lot
[56:03] so three definite times and a couple i
[56:05] was pretty suspicious of because they
[56:07] really didn't want to talk to me but
[56:09] anyway um that's
[56:11] neither here nor there uh i'm i just
[56:14] can't get excited about a ward system i
[56:17] i think that there are other things that
[56:19] we can do
[56:21] um to make things it's too bad we don't
[56:24] have
[56:25] um one of our buildings right there
[56:29] in um one of the southeast
[56:33] um areas one of our buildings so that we
[56:36] could have
[56:37] meetings there so um a town hall meeting
[56:41] could be there so there are are other
[56:44] things that we can do besides doing the
[56:46] ward system
[56:48] um i the
[56:51] the last thing was something that john
[56:53] said and that
[56:54] was what i was going to say is don't
[56:57] limit yourself
[56:58] to these two things that we need to
[57:00] discuss
[57:01] internet voting and i thought it was
[57:03] fabulous
[57:05] and um i thought it worked really well
[57:08] there are
[57:08] very few hiccups a few people who were a
[57:11] little
[57:12] um boggled by it but really when you did
[57:15] it
[57:16] there was no problem at all and voting
[57:18] in person at the town hall of course you
[57:19] always have to have that bake up
[57:21] back up because there are always people
[57:23] who won't get it so
[57:25] i i agree you still your mandate is
[57:28] bigger
[57:28] than the award system and the and the
[57:32] ranked ballot and that's what i think
[57:37] i appreciate that encouragement sharon i
[57:40] i must admit
[57:41] uh personally that i i i
[57:44] balk a little bit around the question of
[57:47] how to improve voter
[57:49] turnout yeah if if five
[57:53] uh politicians working
[57:56] with the council of mono haven't figured
[57:59] out how to improve voter turnout
[58:02] not quite sure how our task force is
[58:05] going to come up with any silver bullets
[58:07] but you know i i i will not shirk the
[58:10] question
[58:10] i will include it in the report because
[58:13] uh
[58:14] you know what i'm hoping to do is draft
[58:16] something
[58:17] and then and then have bob and stefan
[58:20] and peter
[58:21] you know have the time to to think it
[58:23] through
[58:24] add to it you know and uh and then i
[58:28] think
[58:28] we can have another uh once we have kind
[58:32] of a draft in hand
[58:33] we can have a uh perhaps a uh
[58:37] a more useful a task force meeting
[58:40] where we we go through and kind of and
[58:43] more
[58:44] purposefully get on the same page with
[58:46] each other about
[58:47] uh what we want to take forward
[58:51] that sounds that sounds really good
[58:54] uh john can i say something please yes
[58:57] sir
[58:58] uh i i think uh to help focus um
[59:02] our efforts here uh and i have put it on
[59:05] on my you know i kept the purposely to
[59:07] one page
[59:08] uh there uh about the award system but
[59:12] uh the the second main point there was
[59:14] goals and benefits
[59:16] so uh specifically in my case this was
[59:20] of award system
[59:21] uh and uh it's uh i have been a goal
[59:26] oriented
[59:27] a person for a very long time uh
[59:30] and and um i've put down there some
[59:33] some goals uh and the benefits
[59:36] that i think and and i think that uh
[59:39] whatever we're considering
[59:41] uh it it's good to start with goals
[59:45] and one of them that's been mentioned
[59:47] here is is to increase
[59:48] a voter turnout i may naively believe
[59:53] this but but i do believe it is that a
[59:56] award system could actually
[59:59] increase the voter turnout but that
[1:00:01] would only be borne out
[1:00:03] uh if if we actually had that that
[1:00:05] that's a personal uh
[1:00:07] opinion about that so i i really do
[1:00:09] think that that you know we need to
[1:00:11] to look at at those goals um i
[1:00:14] i i have put down here my feelings on
[1:00:17] this
[1:00:18] and some people may disagree uh that
[1:00:20] those are in fact
[1:00:21] valid goals here um the the ranked
[1:00:25] ballot
[1:00:25] system uh we're we're discussing it
[1:00:29] because it is one that is used or has
[1:00:31] been used in different countries and the
[1:00:33] like
[1:00:34] um as as i see it um
[1:00:38] to for my way of thinking for mono uh
[1:00:40] that's nothing more than tinkering
[1:00:43] and uh for my way of thinking in fact
[1:00:46] does not achieve the goals or the
[1:00:48] benefits that i think are
[1:00:50] right i have said it in an email
[1:00:53] to the the committee members i'll say it
[1:00:56] here now because this is being recorded
[1:00:58] that a ranked ballot uh voting system
[1:01:02] in the 2018 election would not have made
[1:01:06] one a bit of difference because the the
[1:01:08] three incumbents who were elected
[1:01:11] uh got more than 50 percent of of
[1:01:14] the vote were cast yes no it would not
[1:01:18] have made any difference whatsoever
[1:01:20] there would not not have been a second
[1:01:21] round of counting
[1:01:23] that that that's interesting that you
[1:01:26] brought that up i didn't want to say
[1:01:27] that
[1:01:28] but but um you know fred and i tied with
[1:01:31] 26
[1:01:32] point something percent and ralph was
[1:01:35] ahead of us
[1:01:36] so you know it it just uh
[1:01:40] i i can't see how you could get that how
[1:01:43] it would change anything
[1:01:44] to have a ranked ballot in the church
[1:01:48] it would not have made any difference at
[1:01:50] all the three of you got over 50 percent
[1:01:54] of the votes that were cast
[1:01:56] yeah could i just add there didn't um
[1:02:00] wasn't it fred simpson who did the math
[1:02:02] going back
[1:02:03] to all the elections since 1974
[1:02:07] and made the same point i
[1:02:11] i i remember something about that
[1:02:14] memories getting
[1:02:15] you know yeah it's so smart but i do
[1:02:17] remember
[1:02:18] yeah i it was something along those
[1:02:21] lines
[1:02:22] uh okay let let me let me
[1:02:25] say this and and and it's an interesting
[1:02:27] thing
[1:02:28] i've lived up here for 25 or 26 years
[1:02:32] uh it's an interesting fact in rural
[1:02:34] politics
[1:02:35] that uh and it's a known fact that the
[1:02:37] incumbents
[1:02:38] uh have a a huge advantage
[1:02:42] over uh any challengers and that the
[1:02:45] only exception
[1:02:46] interestingly enough is the case that
[1:02:49] happened in the town of orangeville
[1:02:51] two years ago and where they were all
[1:02:54] thrown out
[1:02:56] all the incumbents were thrown out
[1:02:58] because that
[1:02:59] council was so dysfunctional that it was
[1:03:02] uh
[1:03:03] uh no nobody could ignore that fact
[1:03:07] so all of the incumbents whether they
[1:03:09] were good or not were thrown out
[1:03:11] and a whole new slate uh but uh it is a
[1:03:14] known fact uh
[1:03:16] general again to repeat that that uh in
[1:03:18] rural areas
[1:03:20] incumbents by far have a huger uh
[1:03:22] advantage over somebody new coming in
[1:03:25] and and what can you perceive is the
[1:03:28] problem with that
[1:03:29] bob just so i get the point well uh the
[1:03:32] problem with that
[1:03:33] is that it discourages uh new people
[1:03:36] from getting involved
[1:03:39] and we had diane wansley uh
[1:03:42] yo who bless her uh got involved in
[1:03:46] in the last one but it it absolutely
[1:03:48] discourages
[1:03:50] uh new people and other people from
[1:03:52] getting involved in it
[1:03:54] and and that to me is a problem well
[1:03:57] over that the only way we'd be able to
[1:03:58] do it would be to have
[1:04:00] we have to then have identity politics
[1:04:03] around
[1:04:03] newcomers and old comers
[1:04:07] now so that the that older votes count
[1:04:09] for older candidates or something like
[1:04:11] this i mean
[1:04:12] which i know you're joking so that won't
[1:04:14] happen but
[1:04:15] well right of course i'm joking but yeah
[1:04:18] but
[1:04:18] but it isn't it's a known fact well
[1:04:21] that's right
[1:04:22] i tell you uh from my point of view
[1:04:25] who someone who lives on a farm
[1:04:28] it's an operating farm we run our own
[1:04:31] farm books
[1:04:32] and i look around mono and i can and i
[1:04:34] say to myself increasingly
[1:04:36] you know um the the
[1:04:40] farm uh sector
[1:04:43] is very much different from what
[1:04:47] you're characterizing as the rural
[1:04:50] portion
[1:04:50] oh no and it's in my books entirely
[1:04:54] underrepresented these days but that's
[1:04:57] again
[1:04:57] that's a particular identity uh point of
[1:05:01] view
[1:05:02] john yes um
[1:05:06] just further to what bob is saying the
[1:05:09] first time i ran
[1:05:11] um i've been here i've been here for
[1:05:16] in the area for uh 50 so
[1:05:20] i'll uh over 50 years and
[1:05:23] uh i would say because
[1:05:26] i was involved in other things
[1:05:29] in the community because i was on
[1:05:32] uh committees of the town
[1:05:36] because i attended
[1:05:41] attended council meetings and
[1:05:45] took notes and talked to counselors
[1:05:48] because
[1:05:49] i was there that's what why i was
[1:05:52] elected the first time i've got no doubt
[1:05:54] name recognition she's part of the
[1:05:56] community she did this she did that
[1:05:59] that those are all things that are
[1:06:01] important diane wansley is
[1:06:03] case in point she is a fabulous person
[1:06:06] and i would love to see her on council
[1:06:09] not going to happen she's got three kids
[1:06:10] now
[1:06:11] but and they're too young so
[1:06:14] um but those are the things that people
[1:06:17] need to do
[1:06:18] if they want to be on council if they
[1:06:21] want to be part of the community you got
[1:06:23] to be there
[1:06:24] all the time
[1:06:27] i hear you clear loud and clear sharon
[1:06:29] and i really i'd really appreciate a
[1:06:32] page of
[1:06:34] of your thoughts written down just so i
[1:06:36] make sure
[1:06:37] that that is covered in our our draft
[1:06:39] report because i
[1:06:40] i really i uh i'm not sure that uh
[1:06:47] incumbency uh is a matter that really
[1:06:50] intersects
[1:06:51] too much with uh voter turnout and uh
[1:06:54] but uh both of these are matters that
[1:06:58] we can touch on in our report sure thank
[1:07:01] you
[1:07:05] so um with that uh
[1:07:08] with that said i think
[1:07:11] [Music]
[1:07:13] we've dealt with item six on the agenda
[1:07:15] which is
[1:07:16] and and five i think simultaneously
[1:07:19] which is a pretty good discussion
[1:07:21] of both of these topics and i've added a
[1:07:24] few more
[1:07:25] uh the next piece on the agenda is tasks
[1:07:28] outstanding and i just want to
[1:07:32] state again that i would take it upon
[1:07:36] myself
[1:07:36] if stefan and bob you're agreeable
[1:07:40] to putting together a first draft
[1:07:43] of uh at least you know a roughed out
[1:07:47] uh table of contents and some items
[1:07:50] around these
[1:07:51] topics some of the matters that have
[1:07:53] been raised and then i would get it to
[1:07:55] the members of the task force
[1:07:57] and we would uh add detract
[1:08:00] uh and fix to the point where
[1:08:05] we think it's worthwhile to have another
[1:08:07] meeting and talk
[1:08:08] about
[1:08:10] [Music]
[1:08:12] how our thoughts and advice are coming
[1:08:16] together
[1:08:17] bob uh stefan do you think that's a
[1:08:20] reasonable way to take this forward
[1:08:24] don't screw it to me stefan
[1:08:28] thank you stefan yeah it's it's bob uh
[1:08:30] yeah i i do agree yes
[1:08:33] uh john uh i don't know what you're
[1:08:36] going to include in that uh your next
[1:08:39] point uh no tasks outstanding i will
[1:08:42] well for example bob i would include
[1:08:45] your submission uh i think almost
[1:08:49] entirely and uh and identify it as as
[1:08:53] work that you've done and and if you
[1:08:55] want to
[1:08:56] uh as you suggested modify it a little
[1:08:59] bit
[1:09:00] uh you could do that either now or when
[1:09:03] you see it show up in a draft report
[1:09:05] yeah i
[1:09:06] i will draw up i i i like john's idea
[1:09:10] about
[1:09:10] rejigging a three-ward system so i will
[1:09:14] uh draw up a different one for that and
[1:09:16] i'll i'll send it in
[1:09:18] to everybody and yes please include that
[1:09:21] uh but also please i don't know you know
[1:09:24] again the the draft resolutions the
[1:09:26] the two here i i would like to see the
[1:09:29] the third suggestion
[1:09:31] about a referendum question on the 2022
[1:09:35] yes so i wrote that down
[1:09:38] and so in this draft report i will i
[1:09:41] will again you know
[1:09:42] towards the end of it include some draft
[1:09:46] final resolutions
[1:09:47] and that will be one of them so uh uh
[1:09:50] unless we get any objections you know uh
[1:09:54] in the intervening time i mean that's
[1:09:56] that's what i would proceed
[1:09:58] to include yeah perfect
[1:10:07] yup great thank you well
[1:10:10] with that uh having been uh
[1:10:14] dealt with and um i don't think there's
[1:10:16] any other business arising
[1:10:18] we've added the item that bob wished to
[1:10:21] under item eight on the agenda um
[1:10:26] in in peter's absence i will try to
[1:10:30] um i think we're supposed to come up
[1:10:33] with some minutes
[1:10:34] i'll put together something which i
[1:10:38] hope is as brief as peter's were the
[1:10:40] last time
[1:10:41] and get that done uh and uh
[1:10:45] get on to the uh the more useful matter
[1:10:49] of of drafting uh something for us to
[1:10:52] discuss
[1:10:55] uh john if if it's okay with everybody
[1:10:57] i'll i'll i'll
[1:10:58] um i wrote down some words about the the
[1:11:02] suggestion for a referendum
[1:11:04] uh let let me uh send you an email with
[1:11:06] a
[1:11:07] a a suggestion of of how that that
[1:11:10] resolution could be uh
[1:11:12] written up if that'll help you
[1:11:15] yes i've got jotted down here
[1:11:18] something along the alliance of a
[1:11:20] resolution that the town
[1:11:22] consider a non-binding referendum
[1:11:26] on uh what i heard to be a suggestion
[1:11:30] around
[1:11:30] almost all of these matters to do with
[1:11:34] um ward
[1:11:39] ward system voting or not or the current
[1:11:42] system
[1:11:43] and uh uh the current voting system or
[1:11:46] an electoral reform
[1:11:48] uh sorry a uh
[1:11:51] system so that it's framed around
[1:11:54] all of this subject matter so that if
[1:11:56] the council in fact
[1:11:58] doesn't wish to take any um decisions
[1:12:01] but
[1:12:02] wants to kick it further down the can
[1:12:04] down the road
[1:12:05] and they can do so through a referendum
[1:12:08] yeah god i i think that that's good i i
[1:12:10] did yeah i wrote the three down
[1:12:12] uh the question of current system ward
[1:12:14] system or ranked ballot you've said
[1:12:16] those i think that's perfect
[1:12:18] good i'll draft up something along those
[1:12:20] lines
[1:12:24] with that said i wish you all
[1:12:28] a safe december
[1:12:31] [Laughter]
[1:12:33] thank you may we stay in the same color
[1:12:36] whatever that color happens to be at the
[1:12:38] present time
[1:12:39] uh i hate hate to be the bearer of bad
[1:12:43] news but
[1:12:43] uh the word on the street is that uh
[1:12:46] friday will probably go to red
[1:12:50] well yeah