1 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:12,800 Good evening everyone. It is 6:30 p.m. Members of council are assembled. When 2 00:00:11,759 --> 00:00:15,280 you're ready to begin. >> Thank you very much. Good evening 3 00:00:13,679 --> 00:00:18,560 everyone. I'd like to call to order this regular meeting of the council of the 4 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:21,760 Tanosaging Shores. Welcome all members. Everyone in the gallery, everyone 5 00:00:20,080 --> 00:00:25,039 watching via the live stream. We're glad everybody's with us. Second item on the 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:30,240 agenda is the land acknowledgement and councelor Dvinsky has that this evening. 7 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:35,120 » Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Through you, we acknowledge that we are meeting on the 8 00:00:32,239 --> 00:00:41,040 traditional lands and treaty territory of the Sagino Ojiway nation, which 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:47,039 consists of the Chipoas of Sagin and the Chipoas of Nayash unseated First Nation. 10 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:52,559 We understand this land holds immense significance to the people of Sagin, 11 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:57,600 Ojiway Nation. We appreciate those who live and work alongside us today and who 12 00:00:55,680 --> 00:01:03,600 continue the traditions of their ancestors as stewards of the land we are 13 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:09,040 privileged to inhabit. We thank them for the contributions they have made in both 14 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:13,119 caring for the land and in shaping this community. We commit to truth and 15 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:18,000 reconciliation. To acknowledging the truth about what 16 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:23,759 happened to indigenous peoples because of colonization and to reconciliation 17 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:29,439 which begins with each and every one of us. As a local government and public 18 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:34,479 organization, we are dedicated to learning about indigenous culture, to 19 00:01:32,159 --> 00:01:39,920 fostering a better relationship with First Nations and their people, and we 20 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:46,159 commit ourselves to actions that move us forward on a path to healing along with 21 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:49,759 the Sagin Ojiway nation. >> Thank you. Third item on the agenda is 22 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:53,200 disclosure of interest. Asking a member if you have one of those you'd like to 23 00:01:50,720 --> 00:02:01,520 declare. Council Grace. >> Thank you, Mr. Mayor, um I'm declaring a 24 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:05,360 conflict of interest on uh items 7.1, 13.1, 25 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:11,560 and 13.2. They relate to the draft plan of 26 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,560 subdivision S-2025-004, 27 00:02:12,879 --> 00:02:20,080 the local official plan and zoning bylaw amendments, and the related proposed 28 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:24,560 bylaws. I own property which is located directly 29 00:02:22,319 --> 00:02:30,959 across the street from the proposed development and the new street entrance. 30 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:35,200 » Thank you. Any further declarations? I have one like to declare a pinary 31 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:39,200 interest with respect to agenda item 11.2.1 32 00:02:36,879 --> 00:02:43,120 the uh notice of the motion on the highway 21 speed limit. I'm declaring 33 00:02:41,599 --> 00:02:46,160 that peerary interest because I am a shareholder in a business that owns 34 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:50,160 property along that section of highway 21. All right. If there's no further 35 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:54,000 declarations, of course, you can declare when any time if you need to. Uh, no 36 00:02:52,319 --> 00:02:56,480 additions, deletions, or amendments. So, we're on to the minutes. I have a 37 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,840 resolution that council adopt the minutes of the regular council meeting 38 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:03,360 of August 10th, 2026 as presented as a mover and secondary, the vice deputy 39 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:06,640 mayor and councelor Grace. Discussion to the minutes. Seeing none, councelor 40 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:11,440 Grace. Sorry. >> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Um, I just wanted 41 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:16,879 to I know I've the clerk has confirmed this, but um I just wanted to confirm 42 00:03:14,239 --> 00:03:22,560 again that the complete designation application for the 160 L heritage 43 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:27,360 designation um will be attached uh to the published 44 00:03:26,319 --> 00:03:32,799 minutes. Thanks >> the clerk. 45 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:36,319 » Thank you, Mayor Sharbano. The complete application for that heritage 46 00:03:34,319 --> 00:03:40,239 designation will appear on the HTML version of the approved minutes. 47 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:46,239 » Okay. Any further questions or comments of the minutes? Seeing none, all in 48 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:50,640 favor? That is carried. Okay. So, that moves us on then to item seven, reports 49 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:56,319 of municipal officers. Uh few reports there. First one is 7.1 draft plan of 50 00:03:53,680 --> 00:04:03,920 subdivision S-20225-004 local official plan amendment L-2025-016 51 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:08,560 and zoning bylaw amendment Z-20225-027 uh recommendation with respect to SKG 52 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:15,280 holdings/chantry crossing. So we'll turn that to the planner uh Karina Smith. 53 00:04:12,799 --> 00:04:19,600 » Thank you through you mayor Charbano. Uh I'm presenting the applications tonight 54 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:23,840 on behalf of the planner, Julie Steeper, who is not available to attend this 55 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:27,840 evening. Uh a draft plan of subdivision application has been submitted to create 56 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:33,440 a residential subdivision. Um that subdivision would consist of 33 single 57 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:37,919 detached lots and 18 townhouse lots fronting on proposed extensions of 58 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:42,479 Albert Street and Emerald Drive. There are also blocks proposed for highway 59 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:49,120 commercial, walkway, storm water management, open space, um, reserve and 60 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:52,479 highway widening purposes. The draft plan of subdivision and the related 61 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:56,000 local official plan amendment and zoning bylaw amendment were previously 62 00:04:54,080 --> 00:05:01,680 presented at a public meeting held in April of this year. The draft plan of 63 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:06,720 subdivision has undergone just one minor revision relating to the culde-sac bulb 64 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:12,880 and the alignment of the rail trail uh in proximity to that bulb. Those changes 65 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:16,560 are minor uh but overall the lot fabric as well as the proposed road layout is 66 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:22,080 generally consistent with what was presented at the public meeting. 67 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:26,000 The local official plan amendment uh has been submitted to amend the boundaries 68 00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:31,039 of the existing designation in the town's official plan to align with the 69 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:35,440 proposed lot layout in the draft plan of subdivision. The subject lands are 70 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:43,199 currently designated highway, commercial, residential, and open space. 71 00:05:40,639 --> 00:05:47,600 And the proposed official plan amendment would maintain those designations, but 72 00:05:45,759 --> 00:05:52,080 again would align the boundaries of those designations with the proposed lot 73 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:57,840 and block fabric. The zoning bylaw amendment seeks to 74 00:05:54,320 --> 00:06:02,960 reszone uh the property from highway commercial with a holding provision, 75 00:06:00,479 --> 00:06:08,319 residential first density with a holding provision and open space also with a 76 00:06:05,199 --> 00:06:13,680 holding provision. Uh the proposed zoning would introduce residential third 77 00:06:11,919 --> 00:06:18,240 density to allow for the townhouse blocks. The proposed single family units 78 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:24,720 would be in the residential first density special zone and the highway 79 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:29,120 commercial would also have a special um highway HC37 80 00:06:26,639 --> 00:06:33,919 zone as well. The open space does not have any proposed special provisions. 81 00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:38,960 The applications before council this evening have considered comments from 82 00:06:36,479 --> 00:06:46,240 the public. We did receive over 60 comments from members of the community 83 00:06:41,759 --> 00:06:51,919 uh which included um uh various uh concerns with respect to flooding, storm 84 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:57,520 water management, traffic and other issues. We also received comments from 85 00:06:54,720 --> 00:07:02,319 agencies on the applications and those are included in the agenda package for 86 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:06,960 you this evening. We would note that the town town staff as well as their 87 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:11,120 consulting engineer did flag outstanding concerns particularly with respect to 88 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:17,039 hydro geology and storm water management and also concerns with respect to uh 89 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:20,880 traffic and the noise barrier. For that reason, we are seeking and recommending 90 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:25,919 to council this evening that the official plan amendment and zoning bylaw 91 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:31,199 amendment be approved. Uh and that uh council support in principle approval of 92 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:35,440 the draft plan of subdivision. That draft plan of subdivision would report 93 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:39,759 would then be written and taken to county council as the county is the 94 00:07:37,599 --> 00:07:44,960 approval body for the draft plan of subdivision. We anticipated there may be 95 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:48,639 some further uh adjustments to the language in the conditions and we've 96 00:07:46,479 --> 00:07:54,000 been working diligently with town staff and the applicant to refine the language 97 00:07:51,039 --> 00:07:57,759 of those conditions. Um I would note um upon my review in preparation for the 98 00:07:55,840 --> 00:08:02,080 meeting this evening. There was not a condition included with respect to an 99 00:07:59,759 --> 00:08:06,319 updated and final transportation report and so we will be looking to add that 100 00:08:03,919 --> 00:08:10,240 before we take a report re uh a report forward to county council. That 101 00:08:08,479 --> 00:08:14,319 concludes my presentation for this evening, but I'm happy to answer any 102 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:18,639 questions that council may have. >> Okay. Thank you. There is a resolution 103 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:24,639 that council adopt bylaw 83-2026 for local official plan amendment L-2025-016 104 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:27,759 by SKG Holdings Incorporated and that it be forwarded to Bruce County for 105 00:08:25,919 --> 00:08:32,959 approval. That council approves zoning bylaw amendment Z-20225-027 106 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:36,479 by SKG Holdings Incorporated and bylaw 84-2026. 107 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:40,479 and that council support in principle county of Bruce approval of draft plan 108 00:08:37,839 --> 00:08:44,000 of subdivision S-20225-00004 by SKG Holdings Incorporated in 109 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:47,519 accordance with the draft plan attached and subject to resolution through count 110 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:51,519 conditions of draft approval of outstanding issues relating to servicing 111 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:54,800 storm water management hydrogeeology geotechnical conditions and noise is 112 00:08:53,680 --> 00:09:01,880 there mover and seconder for that resolution moved by Alpen seconded by 113 00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:01,880 Matt discussion 114 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:07,240 the deputy mayor and then council Man, 115 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:16,959 » thank you, Mr. Mayor, and through you. I have a number of questions. I'm um very 116 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:22,399 concerned though about moving forward with something um at the moment that 117 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:26,560 there's there's an awful lot of unanswered questions and and to be 118 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:32,399 completed, to be received, to be reviewed um kinds of language in this. 119 00:09:29,279 --> 00:09:38,160 And um in my opinion, it would be more appropriate for us to see a lot more 120 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:43,120 already decided or determined or or at least presented in a form that um we can 121 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:50,080 then have a discussion about it. So, I'm I'm um not um at the moment um prepared 122 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:53,279 to to support the motion that that has been put on the floor because I I do 123 00:09:51,760 --> 00:10:00,000 think there's an awful lot of unanswered questions and um the information that we 124 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:05,600 have from the town's engineering consultant um doesn't give me a great 125 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:10,240 deal of confidence either in that um you know, they often in their their report 126 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:17,040 um said, you know, we don't have this we can't comment on this and so 127 00:10:12,959 --> 00:10:22,560 but I do have some questions um and um what was not clear from the drawing so 128 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:28,880 I'll I'll just run through them um going from this the special um condition 129 00:10:24,959 --> 00:10:32,880 on the R1 um zoning is about a couple of things but one of them is reduction in 130 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:39,600 the size of the lots the what's required at the moment is 450 square meters um is 131 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:42,800 the required lot size the um document suggests that it's going going down to 132 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:48,880 400 square meters. What is that in terms of dimensions? They they look um to me 133 00:10:45,519 --> 00:10:53,200 to all be um fairly similar in size, but even the town's engineers said that the 134 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:57,600 drawing should have very specific lot sizes indicated. Um which led me to 135 00:10:56,079 --> 00:11:05,519 think that maybe they're not all the same size. What's the general size of 136 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:12,600 the lots for the R1 um parcel? Um is it 50 by 100? Is it 40 by 80? What what's 137 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,600 the size of those lots? the planner. 138 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:18,640 » Yes, thank you for the question through you, Mayor Charbano. So, the dimensions 139 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:28,000 of the lots uh for the single family, they are in the range of 13.5 to peers 140 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:34,800 up to 14 14.3 in some locations in terms of their frontage and depths vary from 141 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:40,959 30 m um in some locations up to 37 I'm seeing in some locations. 142 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:46,399 Deputy Mayor, >> thank you for that. Um, I also was 143 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:53,600 concerned when I read in the report that um, there was a comment from SA about 144 00:11:50,000 --> 00:12:00,000 um, comp compensatory I'm probably saying that the word wrong, compensatory 145 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:04,240 planting areas um, to um, take into account the potential for lost trees. 146 00:12:01,839 --> 00:12:09,519 And the municipal response that that there were no lands available for this 147 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:16,000 kind of surprised me. Um, do we not have land somewhere in the entirety of Sagine 148 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:22,079 Shores? I, you know, Helwell Park has a huge area that has some trees in it. I I 149 00:12:19,519 --> 00:12:27,440 know it's over the size um that was mentioned here. Um, Lamont has a lot of 150 00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:31,360 land. Um, you know, there's other um parks in town that could handle trees. 151 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:36,000 Uh there used to be a tree farm out near the landfill. I get what was meant by 152 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:39,600 the statement that there are no municipal lands available for 153 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:46,800 compensatory plantings comp whatever that word is 154 00:12:43,279 --> 00:12:51,600 » the manager of development services. >> Thank you. And through you may sharel. 155 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:56,399 So I I I think in general the idea that the town um should supply lands to 156 00:12:54,399 --> 00:13:00,320 offset tree removal to facilitate private development is maybe um 157 00:12:58,639 --> 00:13:04,720 something that staff were indicating that uh we would not want to potentially 158 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:08,560 set a precedent that this is this is what the town needs to do is supply 159 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:13,680 land. So if there's tree removal, the preference is that the developer find um 160 00:13:11,519 --> 00:13:16,880 another private source to be able to plant those trees. There were 161 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:22,000 discussions that happened internally for where there would be an appropriate spot 162 00:13:18,959 --> 00:13:25,600 to do tree compensation um and with our park staff and the the facilities 163 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,720 manager. I don't believe that there were lands that were identified that would be 164 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:32,720 suitable to account for the number of trees that would be required. 165 00:13:30,959 --> 00:13:35,839 » The deputy mayor. >> Well, thank you for that. That's not at 166 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:39,920 all the impression I got from the report. So, that's that's good 167 00:13:37,519 --> 00:13:45,279 additional information to have. I wanted to ask um about the Pete removal that's 168 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:51,360 that's talked about in the report. Where where does that go? How is how is Pete 169 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:56,480 that is somehow um not desirable to leave somewhere? Where does it go? And 170 00:13:53,360 --> 00:14:01,760 how how how is it disposed of or is it is it usable in some other fashion? Um 171 00:13:58,959 --> 00:14:04,560 I'm just curious where where this pete would go. 172 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:09,279 » Planner. >> Yes. Thank you for the question. So I I 173 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:13,680 don't have a good answer for you on on where that material would go. Uh my 174 00:14:11,839 --> 00:14:17,920 understanding is that there are fill transport regulations in the province in 175 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:21,760 terms of the movement of fill material. So whether it would be regulated under 176 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:24,880 that process, I'm not entirely certain, but I but I could look into that if that 177 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,920 is information that you were looking for. 178 00:14:26,959 --> 00:14:32,480 » Mayor, >> um thank you for that. I also wanted to 179 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:38,079 ask a question about um the references in the report to noise walls. Um, you 180 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:43,600 know, I'm a fan of of BMS with trees, and you know, we had some success with 181 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:48,320 um that sort of addition to projects um throughout Sing Shores, most notably in 182 00:14:45,519 --> 00:14:53,120 Southampton near this with um the um the western side of the Tim Hortons 183 00:14:49,839 --> 00:14:57,120 property. Um nice burm got got installed there and and the trees have grown up. 184 00:14:55,279 --> 00:15:01,600 It's um I think it's doing what the intention was. Um, in this report though 185 00:15:00,079 --> 00:15:08,000 that we've got before us, what's suggested as as um a good noise wall or 186 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:14,959 or the noise wall that's um being included is a double thick wood fence. 187 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:21,519 Um there's nothing in this though to tell me how that's better than a burm. 188 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:26,800 So who who ultimately makes the decision on what's appropriate for noise 189 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:31,680 mitigation or for appropriate separation in particular between um abudding uses 190 00:15:29,279 --> 00:15:36,800 that are distinct and difference foram different for example the commercial lot 191 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:41,760 that that would back on to residential units. um our zoning and and other 192 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:49,839 documents say there needs to be some sort of buffer there. Is is a double 193 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:54,720 thick wood fence um equivalent to a a a burm? There's no mention in the report 194 00:15:51,519 --> 00:15:59,120 of a height. So, I'm just curious, you know, what what are the pros and cons of 195 00:15:56,959 --> 00:16:03,040 both of them? Why is why is the report suggesting double thick wood fences over 196 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:06,880 BMS and plantings? >> The planner. 197 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:12,160 » Uh yes, through you, Mayor Sharpeno. So, my understanding is that the the noise 198 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:16,240 wall, the the double fence is what's being proposed, as well as um air 199 00:16:14,399 --> 00:16:22,079 conditioning for the unit so that they may be able to close their their windows 200 00:16:19,519 --> 00:16:27,360 um adjacent to any properties that are adjacent or within that buffer area of 201 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:32,240 the highway. Um the details on what the final mitigation measure might be are 202 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:36,320 still subject to discussion. So despite the fact that this report has identified 203 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:40,000 that noise wall and the additional mitigation measures as well as warning 204 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:45,600 clauses to be included in the subdivision agreement for for future 205 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:50,560 land owners um those um mitigation measures may be amended through the 206 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:55,120 detailed design process. So um if there is a desire or further need to 207 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:59,519 understand why a wall has been chosen versus uh some other mitigation like a 208 00:16:57,279 --> 00:17:05,039 burm and and retention of the existing trees on the lot. uh that can be refined 209 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:10,240 through the final uh submission of the noise report to the satisfaction of the 210 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:12,959 town and its consulting engineer. >> The premier 211 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:19,280 » um thank you. I just have a couple of couple more in um the planning report 212 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:25,360 from the county. Just would like clarification on um under the density 213 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:30,400 category. Um, and and in the future, could we have numbered pages to make it 214 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:34,880 a little easier? If we're we're going to be asking questions, we can refer to a a 215 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:38,720 page. Perhaps that might be helpful in some regard, but the density section, 216 00:17:36,559 --> 00:17:46,000 which I don't know what page it's on. Um it refers to in one part it says um D um 217 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:49,600 the residential portion of all developments that will be serviced with 218 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:54,799 municipal sewer and water to achieve a min minimum density of 15 units per 219 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:59,280 gross hectare with the layout the density of the entire development meets 220 00:17:57,039 --> 00:18:02,960 this target. Then when I jump down to the next paragraph, it's the proposed 221 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:09,440 residential development will have a density of 18.35 222 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:14,320 units per gross developable hectar. So my question is what's the difference 223 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:20,559 between per gross hectar and per gross developable hectar? Um because our bylaw 224 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:28,720 um is looking at a minimum density per gross hectar. I I am just curious what 225 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:33,520 this developable Hector means, but also with the layout, the density of the 226 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:38,400 entire development meets this target. Is that referring to the entire because 227 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:44,400 this is phase two of a subdivision plan. So is that sentence referring to that 228 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:49,760 the whole phase one phase 2 combination um meets the target or is it just 229 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:54,000 referring to phase two >> the bladder? 230 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:58,400 Thank you for the question. So the density, the terminology gross hector or 231 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:02,240 gross developable Hector that they're essentially the same. Um and I think 232 00:19:00,559 --> 00:19:06,080 you've made note of that before. So we will be uh paying closer attention to 233 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:11,440 that when we do prepare further reports for council. Um the density uh is based 234 00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:18,240 on 15 units per gross hectare is the minimum as you noted for fully serviced 235 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:26,000 uh areas. Um the 18.35 uh excludes uh the natural um the storm 236 00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:29,760 water management ponds specifically. Um the density that you'll note on the 237 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:36,480 draft plan of subdivision is actually 17 or just over 17 units per hectare. And 238 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:41,520 so um that also excluded um the the hazard land or what would be the storm 239 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:44,960 water management block in this case as well as the walkways and highway 240 00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:49,679 widenings reserves and right ofways. 241 00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:54,480 » The deputy mayor. >> So the um the other question about with 242 00:19:52,480 --> 00:20:00,160 the layout the density of the entire development meets this target. It's just 243 00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:05,600 this particular application or is it looking at the entire development which 244 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:09,039 did include or does include phase one >> the planner? 245 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:15,919 » Yes, thank you for that followup. Um, so it would be just for this this proposal, 246 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:18,559 not the original uh phase one. >> Deputy mayor, 247 00:20:16,799 --> 00:20:22,000 » I'll just I'll just mention one more. I I had um I have a couple more, but I'll 248 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:27,600 let other people because maybe they'll come up with them. I I was a little bit 249 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:32,799 concerned that in the documents um a street that's Island Street is 250 00:20:30,159 --> 00:20:37,280 continually referred to as Island Drive. Um just a little clarification point 251 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:42,240 there. And at one point there's a reference to some place called Subway 252 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:46,400 Drive. I'm not too sure where that is in Southampton, but I'm pretty confident 253 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:53,120 it's it's not in this part of Southampton. But um you know it's uh it 254 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:59,039 it just is concerning when there's there's type typo errors like that that 255 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:03,840 um um really shouldn't happen. Anyway, thank you Mr. Mayor. 256 00:21:00,159 --> 00:21:08,880 » Thank you council man. >> Thank you Mr. Mayor and through you. Um 257 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:13,600 I have a question regarding the hydrogeeological 258 00:21:10,559 --> 00:21:17,840 environmental assessment. So um my understanding is that there's been phase 259 00:21:15,919 --> 00:21:22,720 one hydrogeeological environmental assessment completed and that there is 260 00:21:20,159 --> 00:21:30,559 still a phase two outstanding uh and we're being asked to 261 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:34,640 um approve a draft subdivision agreement pending 262 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:43,039 uh successful completion of the phase 2 environmental assessment. Now in here it 263 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:46,559 talks about the building types. Is the site the phase 2 environmental 264 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:50,400 assessment dependent on whether the homes that are going to be built are on 265 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:56,480 slab or whether they have basement and if they're on slab does that negate the 266 00:21:53,120 --> 00:22:02,159 need for the second phase EA on the hydraological 267 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:05,280 conditions >> the planner. 268 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:10,000 » Thank you through Mayor Sharponos. So their applicant has submitted an updated 269 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:14,159 phase one assessment as you've noted. They've also submitted a draft phase 2 270 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:18,960 assessment which has been circulated to to town to the town and the consulting 271 00:22:16,559 --> 00:22:23,520 engineer who's doing the peer review for the town. Um that document we've 272 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:27,919 included a condition in the proposed conditions of draft approval which would 273 00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:31,280 require finalization of that document. I understand in speaking with the 274 00:22:29,039 --> 00:22:35,760 proponent that document is is ready to be submitted in its final form. Um but 275 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:40,240 that that the town did have some outstanding comments and concerns that 276 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:45,039 uh we will review before that report is finalized and so we are looking to 277 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:49,919 include that as a condition of of draft approval and uh that be to the 278 00:22:47,679 --> 00:22:53,280 satisfaction of the town >> councelor. 279 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:57,440 So it it it's going to we're going to get the phase 2 report to our 280 00:22:54,960 --> 00:23:00,320 satisfaction irregardless of the building types that are going to be 281 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:04,640 there. >> The planner. 282 00:23:02,159 --> 00:23:08,640 » Yes. Thank you for the follow-up. Um, so yes, there there is also a condition 283 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:12,960 included in the proposed conditions that would require all development to be slab 284 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:17,039 on grade because of the high groundwater conditions. The phase 2 report is 285 00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:22,320 required regardless because there is residential uses proposed that will be 286 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:27,000 on the ground floor. >> Okay, further questions? Uh, councelor 287 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,000 Dinsky. 288 00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:35,200 » Thank you, Mr. Mayor. And through you, most of my questions have been answered. 289 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:41,760 Not to my satisfaction, but they've been answered. Um, 290 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:46,480 I'm in agreement with the deputy mayor. I read this report. Granted, I did it 291 00:23:44,559 --> 00:23:50,799 between 1 and 2 in the morning one night when I couldn't sleep. But I read this 292 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:55,919 report and 293 00:23:52,400 --> 00:24:03,679 it was one draft approval after another draft approval after this after that. 294 00:23:59,039 --> 00:24:10,080 And I thought I came up with 12. Now I could be wrong, but I thought I came up 295 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:15,520 with 12 different things that hadn't been done yet. 296 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:20,400 And I think we have to do the right thing. And the right thing may be 297 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:27,440 allowing this uh subdivision to go ahead, but not in my eyes not the way it 298 00:24:23,919 --> 00:24:33,279 is right now. Uh because there are too many as uh the deputy mayor said 299 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:40,480 unanswered questions and uh I simply 300 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:46,880 I simply can't uh do that. I've looked at it again when I came here at six and 301 00:24:43,039 --> 00:24:52,880 and looked at it again and it's still one after another an issue a report 302 00:24:50,480 --> 00:25:01,279 something is outstanding. So I can't at this time 303 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:06,240 support this application. I would much rather us have far more information than 304 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:12,559 we have. Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you. Uh councelor Helpin. 305 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:17,919 » Thank you mayor and through you. Um and one of the proposed conditions of draft 306 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:23,919 approval condition 13 states about the slab on grade buildings etc. But at the 307 00:25:20,799 --> 00:25:28,080 end of it it says the cost to design and construct improvements to the downstream 308 00:25:26,159 --> 00:25:32,320 storm drainage systems as approved by the town of so shores are solely respons 309 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:37,520 are the sole responsibility of the owner. What do we have any idea what 310 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:42,159 those downstream improvements 311 00:25:39,039 --> 00:25:46,840 would mean? And I believe this is into catchment drain 12. 312 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,200 » The planner. 313 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:02,880 » Uh thank you through you, Mayor Sharbonos. So um I don't know the 314 00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:08,000 specific details in terms of what upgrades are required but there are 315 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:10,799 substantial flooding issues that are still to be addressed to the 316 00:26:09,039 --> 00:26:15,600 satisfaction of the town and the consulting engineer to ensure that um 317 00:26:13,679 --> 00:26:20,159 the current municipal infrastructure and any proposed upgrades are able to 318 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:25,200 accommodate that storm water management um in the downstream location. So I I 319 00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:31,360 can't give you specifics at this point. Um but that is a condition uh for that 320 00:26:28,559 --> 00:26:34,080 to be addressed and to be covered by the applicant. 321 00:26:32,159 --> 00:26:39,200 » The counselor. >> Uh thank you Marin through you. Uh I I 322 00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:45,440 really support this development. I I think I like what they're doing with the 323 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:49,919 um with the rail trail. I I like how they're transferring land to us. I like 324 00:26:47,279 --> 00:26:55,600 how they're uh the tree retention. I think it is a wellthoughtout and I I 325 00:26:52,480 --> 00:27:00,960 want to say that like it's I'm sorry for the difficulty in 326 00:26:58,559 --> 00:27:05,840 redoing this draft plan now because it was certainly easier to do 20 years ago 327 00:27:04,159 --> 00:27:13,679 than it is today with the added regulation. But my my biggest fear is 328 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:18,240 the is the storm water management and and where that's going to go. And you 329 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:23,279 know, just at our last council meeting, we, you know, we we talked about 330 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:28,080 catchment 12, and there's $2.28 million worth of work to do to bring that up to 331 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:34,240 grade. Um there's 332 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:39,679 uh I I really support this, but I I'm unfortunately I feel like I need to see 333 00:27:36,559 --> 00:27:45,520 a few more of these reports finalized. The the groundwater level and the storm 334 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:48,720 water management issue. Thank you. Thank you. Further comments the vice deputy 335 00:27:47,679 --> 00:27:53,520 mayor. >> Yep. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. And um I just 336 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:59,679 um [clears throat] was wondering through you to the planner. We talked about the 337 00:27:55,679 --> 00:28:05,600 environmental assessment phase two. Um how long have we had that that plan? And 338 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:11,679 where are we at with the review of the environmental assessment? Um when do we 339 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:15,760 expect when do we expect that to be um firmed up? 340 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:19,520 » The planner Uh yes, thank you for the question. So 341 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:26,559 the environmental site assessment phase 2 was received on um the draft report on 342 00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:32,640 May the 8th. Um we we have not received the final version and it has been 343 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:37,279 circulated for town staff review as well as the the peerreview consultant and so 344 00:28:35,039 --> 00:28:43,240 there are comments um that that are available and included in the package 345 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,240 with respect to that assessment. 346 00:28:43,279 --> 00:28:49,120 payment >> to the plan. Are you you haven't 347 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:54,960 received the final version from the from the developer or you haven't seen the 348 00:28:51,600 --> 00:29:00,960 final version because of the delays with staff reviewing it. Where's the delay? 349 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:06,320 » The planner. >> Yes, thank you. Um so, so I can't speak 350 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:11,120 entirely for where that delay might have occurred. I know we have been working 351 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:18,080 diligently with town staff and and the consultant um for the applicant to 352 00:29:14,159 --> 00:29:21,600 resolve outstanding concerns. >> Deputy mayor. 353 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:26,320 » Yeah. I just you know I I think one of the things 354 00:29:23,919 --> 00:29:30,640 this council's been trying work so hard to do is to speed up the planning 355 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:36,320 process. And I just think that we're, you know, they just I I I don't think we 356 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:42,159 need to be approving willy-nilly or half-hazardly. I I don't I don't I I'm 357 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:47,679 not suggesting that, but when I hear a report May, 358 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:53,360 three 3 4 months ago, um seems to be a long time. And I I just think that um 359 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:57,279 you know, this this this plan was approved some 20 years ago and lapsed. 360 00:29:55,279 --> 00:30:03,840 And I guess the question, how many years ago did this plan lapse? Was it 10 years 361 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:10,120 ago, 12 years ago? When when when did the original plan of subdivision lapse? 362 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,120 » The planner? 363 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:22,399 » Uh yes, thank you. So the original uh approval was in 2004 and it lapsed in 364 00:30:20,799 --> 00:30:28,240 2015. So under the current planning act that 365 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:32,000 does allow for um lapsed subdivisions to be potentially deemed not to have lapsed 366 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:36,000 but there are certain criteria that do need to be met and this subdivision did 367 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:41,360 not meet that criteria. >> Basically mayor um so I think you know 368 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,799 there's there's a lot of good marriage with this dating back 15 20 years ago 369 00:30:43,679 --> 00:30:49,120 and there's still a lot of marriage today. I I like the idea of the the rail 370 00:30:47,279 --> 00:30:54,159 trail work that's that's going on the s rail trail association back this 100%. 371 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:58,720 Um, I understand there's some progress being made with the traffic flow from 372 00:30:55,919 --> 00:31:03,120 Adelaide Street out on on Elbert Street. I I thought at one point we received a 373 00:31:01,279 --> 00:31:07,520 grant for some some work on the intersection there, but um I just asked 374 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:13,760 that question today and staff are still getting back to me. Um I did receive one 375 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:17,200 response, but um I thought we had moved a little further ahead with with the 376 00:31:15,679 --> 00:31:20,080 intersection changes there. We listened to the public. We applied for funding 377 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:26,960 and I think there's some good work happening behind the scenes. Um, 378 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:32,720 you know, I think from a inter land tribunal standpoint, we we went through 379 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:37,919 this with marketry too and um didn't support that. Of course, land tribunal 380 00:31:35,279 --> 00:31:44,159 um came along and supported it and approved it and I I just wondering if um 381 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,799 you know I I'm not sure where this votes going to go on this. I guess what I'm 382 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:52,320 hearing from council, you just need more information. There's a lot of un undone 383 00:31:49,039 --> 00:31:54,960 work yet. And I and um you know, I hope we can get that sooner than later 384 00:31:53,760 --> 00:32:00,880 because I don't think we should hold up this planning process any any further. 385 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:05,200 At least um [snorts] let's just try and get it moved along. But I I guess my 386 00:32:03,519 --> 00:32:10,399 question to staff back to staff again, Mr. mayor would be um 387 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:14,480 when [clears throat] when do you see this you know there's there's servicing 388 00:32:12,799 --> 00:32:18,000 there's storm water management the hydro geology assessment phase two 389 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:23,279 environmental assessment geotechnical conditions when will we receive that 390 00:32:21,519 --> 00:32:27,279 completed information are we at the mercy of the developer to get that 391 00:32:26,027 --> 00:32:31,120 [clears throat] right that information to us I'm just trying to get I'm trying 392 00:32:29,039 --> 00:32:36,640 to understand how much they're not giving to us versus how how how much we 393 00:32:34,559 --> 00:32:40,640 need to speed the process up a little longer from a staffing standpoint. So, 394 00:32:38,159 --> 00:32:45,519 I'm a little confused with what's what's missing. I I I kind of like the 395 00:32:43,679 --> 00:32:51,200 approving principle because I think this is forthcoming this information. I don't 396 00:32:47,919 --> 00:32:55,679 think we should hold up any further. But when will we see something again back at 397 00:32:53,679 --> 00:32:59,279 this table? Would it be a month, two months? Is it the new council? When will 398 00:32:57,679 --> 00:33:03,519 when is this coming back? >> The planner. 399 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:08,399 » Uh thank you for the question. So just on your earlier comment with respect to 400 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:13,360 um when when you might uh see this 401 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:18,080 application again, it's provided on whether or not or how council decides on 402 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:22,080 the application this evening. So uh if council were to approve the amendments 403 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:26,480 and to support in principle the draft plan of subdivision, uh the next step 404 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:30,240 would be for this uh draft plan of subdivision application to be brought 405 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:35,120 forward to county council for a decision. And if that was also a 406 00:33:32,559 --> 00:33:39,760 favorable decision, then um this item would likely return to this council uh 407 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:44,240 with the agreement. But I perhaps would turn that over to to the manager for the 408 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:47,519 town. >> Manager. 409 00:33:46,159 --> 00:33:52,399 » Uh thank you. And through you, Mayor Sherno. Uh yes, that's correct. If it 410 00:33:49,679 --> 00:33:57,279 advances to a draft approval, the next time this would return to council would 411 00:33:54,320 --> 00:34:00,640 be with a draft uh subdivision agreement for consideration. 412 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:07,440 Deputy Mayor, >> just just one last comment. Um I I am 413 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:11,679 going to support this. Um and and it may not be enough votes to to move this 414 00:34:09,359 --> 00:34:16,240 through, but you know, it's it's a it's support in principle. And what we're 415 00:34:13,839 --> 00:34:20,639 saying to the developers is that we're subject to resolutions through condition 416 00:34:18,720 --> 00:34:24,399 draft approval of outstanding issues relating to servicing, storm water 417 00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:28,079 management, hydro geology, tech, geotechnical conditions, and noise. They 418 00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:32,480 know they have to provide that. They know they have to provide that and um I 419 00:34:30,879 --> 00:34:37,839 think we need to send the message back to the developers which is a great plan 420 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:41,520 and council help said so and I think I councelor deinskills will say this is a 421 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:46,079 great development maybe not just yet but I think we shouldn't be delaying this 422 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:50,159 any further and um I think we need to be supporting in principle so I will be 423 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:56,560 supporting the resolution >> thank you very much councelor stack 424 00:34:53,599 --> 00:35:00,960 » I'm shrinking suddenly um I just a couple process questions I think I ask a 425 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:06,960 similar question every time. But so for this, if we were to not approve the um 426 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:11,040 effectively get when we get down to the bylaw, we don't approve the bylaw and we 427 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:16,720 say no, we want to go back and have the conditions for draft approval met before 428 00:35:14,079 --> 00:35:21,200 we come back. How is it possible to just go right into the subdivision agreement? 429 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:25,520 Like what what I'm trying to understand is are we actually materially delaying 430 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:29,680 them by asking them to complete what we have already said we are going to 431 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:34,839 require completion before we approve the final plan 432 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,839 » the planner. 433 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:43,359 » Uh thank you for the question. So if this council this evening decided to 434 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:48,560 defer the application um that would be a time delay for the applicant. So their 435 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:53,599 their amendment specifically um would would wait until a report is brought 436 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:57,520 back to this council um with more refinements potentially to the 437 00:35:55,280 --> 00:36:01,599 conditions of draft approval. And so that that would be at least a month 438 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:06,800 delay to bring that back to to the next council meeting. Um again that would 439 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:12,160 then push out the timeline with respect to a follow-up report to county council 440 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:14,240 as well. It's 441 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:18,400 » probably more of a statement than a question, but I think um and I'm 442 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:22,480 probably sounding like my mother, which is a different thing. Like you have to 443 00:36:19,599 --> 00:36:27,040 learn, you've managed to wait since or that the developers managed to wait from 444 00:36:24,079 --> 00:36:32,320 2015 to today, so 11 years to bring this back. I think we've seen a lot of 445 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:35,119 concerns from residents about some of the outstanding issues around the 446 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:39,520 environmental assessment, drainage issues, all all manner of issues that 447 00:36:37,119 --> 00:36:46,400 have been um raised by several residents. So I just I am struggling um 448 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:50,160 I'm struggling to approve this not because I just to be clear not because I 449 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:54,960 actually have a objection to the development itself. Um I think the rail 450 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:57,839 trail discussion is very good. I ran that trail the other day. I thought okay 451 00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:02,560 this would be great to protect. I think there's a lot of opportunity um for 452 00:36:59,839 --> 00:37:06,320 noise barriers. I think that development makes sense in the community. But I I do 453 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:11,760 think we should recognize that where folks have raised concerns. And I think, 454 00:37:09,359 --> 00:37:15,280 you know, we all know when it comes to flooding and drainage, people get 455 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:19,760 particularly concerned. And I know that there's been some concerns raised um 456 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:23,760 about the environmental assessment because it, you know, there are some 457 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:28,720 concerns about localized I think the fuel whatever that was underground that 458 00:37:26,720 --> 00:37:31,359 there are some concerns there. I just the only reason I'm not going to I'm 459 00:37:30,079 --> 00:37:33,920 just being candid is the only reason I'm not going to support this. I just think 460 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:37,280 like let's finish some of the more material issues out so that people can 461 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:40,400 feel more comfortable that the town's completed its due diligence. So when you 462 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:44,880 tell us that the reports have been submitted, I'm just struggling with why 463 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:49,280 it's being brought to us without reviewing and finalizing the reports 464 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:52,000 like the reports that the developer had to provide. 465 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:56,560 » Bler >> um just as a as a followup um to that 466 00:37:54,880 --> 00:38:01,680 point and I believe another member of council had raised a question about 467 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:05,760 delays in the process. So with the most recent large resubmission for this 468 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:10,480 application to address comments from from the county town and other agencies, 469 00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:14,560 the applicant had indicated in their response matrix that they had provided 470 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:18,560 certain studies with that submission which in fact they were not provided and 471 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:22,400 had not been finalized. So there was a delay there and that is why we also had 472 00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:28,400 recommended that some of those reports including the hydrogeeological 473 00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:32,520 assessment um be um moved forward with uh conditions of draft approval. 474 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:39,839 » Hen sorry so sorry just so we're clear 475 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:44,800 because I'm hearing some commentary in in the gallery here. 476 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:48,480 So just so I'm clear, the developer did not submit a complete package in the 477 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,960 original application. Is that is that what you're saying? 478 00:38:49,359 --> 00:38:55,839 » The planner. >> Yes. Thank you. So um I haven't been 479 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:59,760 part of all of those discussions, but my understanding was that um there was 480 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:03,920 material and information provided to address the comments that have been 481 00:39:01,359 --> 00:39:10,160 provided by uh agencies through the through the original round of comments. 482 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:17,839 Um but it was not a full resubmission um which would include a finalized report. 483 00:39:13,839 --> 00:39:23,520 » Councelor Stack. Okay. Councelor Helpin. >> Thank you. Mayor and through you. Um is 484 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:27,200 it possible that there's three recommendations there. Is it possible 485 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:30,640 that the third recommendation that we vote on that and we because I would 486 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:36,480 accept this a council support in principle the county approved the draft 487 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:40,640 plan by etc. I I won't uh read the whole thing, but we're 488 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:46,480 approving it in principle, but we're just not passing the bylaw yet. And 489 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:51,280 would that allow it to move forward or would you like me to read that for 490 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:55,200 the record? Do you have any comments of that the 491 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:59,440 planner? >> Uh so thank you for the question. So, in 492 00:39:57,599 --> 00:40:04,400 response, uh, we would be looking for the amendments to to move forward, uh, 493 00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:09,520 before we would take a report to county council on the subdivision, um, simply 494 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:14,560 because, uh, we are looking to make sure the appropriate permissions are in place 495 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:18,880 to facilitate that future land division. >> Yeah. To be clear, you can't do the you 496 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:23,200 can't do the draft plan subdivision without amending the zoning and the 497 00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:28,800 official plan, right? One has to follow the other. 498 00:40:25,839 --> 00:40:32,720 the council helping. >> Um 499 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:37,640 I'm going to think for a second. Thank you. 500 00:40:34,079 --> 00:40:37,640 » And the deputy mayor, 501 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:47,119 » I don't know how um to to ask for a deferral rather than a vote at this 502 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:52,160 stage, but um I really do think that there's key information that's missing. 503 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:56,480 Um, and as councelor Stack said, you know, the the due diligence um aspect, I 504 00:40:54,880 --> 00:41:02,160 think we need to have complete confidence that that we've received what 505 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:08,560 we should receive um when we're making decisions that potentially impact not 506 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:12,880 just um potential new residents of town or or people buying a new house in town, 507 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:17,839 moving around, but also existing neighborhoods and infrastructure under 508 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:22,640 the ground. And I just um you know even the imprincipal part if some of the 509 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:30,000 reports that come in have information that requires a real redirect or 510 00:41:25,599 --> 00:41:34,560 rethinking or redesign. Um you know that then what happens is it going to just be 511 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:39,359 oh well let's just work through this and figure it out. Um when you know we 512 00:41:37,599 --> 00:41:47,520 should have had that information up front. I'm concerned um that um any kind 513 00:41:43,119 --> 00:41:52,400 of cost element that the town is is um going to be involved with um because we 514 00:41:50,720 --> 00:41:58,000 are often involved with development proposals with some taxpayer funded 515 00:41:54,640 --> 00:42:03,119 aspects. Um in the absence of complete information and and a a really defined 516 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:06,560 um sense of storm water management and other um technical things with 517 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:13,440 infrastructure. um there's potential there for things to 518 00:42:09,599 --> 00:42:16,480 come up that um you know if we if we just waited and got the information up 519 00:42:15,119 --> 00:42:22,000 front so that there was a clear understanding I think that that would be 520 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:26,720 very helpful to our staff but also be um good messaging to the community that um 521 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,280 everything's been thought about everything's been considered 522 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:34,079 everything's been reviewed everything's been questioned and then a decision was 523 00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:38,960 rendered I just think there's a lot of information still missing so I will not 524 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:45,680 be supporting um the way that the motion was worded up front. Um I would um I I 525 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:49,280 think the development, you know, has some good points in that it's a 526 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:53,920 continuation of something from a number of years ago and um makes sense because 527 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:57,760 it's um you know, there's existing infrastructure there. There were roads 528 00:42:55,520 --> 00:43:02,800 planned through that area. Um albeit there's been some adjustments there. So, 529 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:09,280 the development itself is is um quite possibly a very good idea, but I just 530 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:15,440 don't think that we have what we need um to ensure that the town um is in good 531 00:43:13,119 --> 00:43:20,480 shape in terms of taxpayer funded expenses, but also just in terms of our 532 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:23,839 own long-term plan with with the way we manage services um in the community. 533 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:29,119 Thank you. >> Thank you. Of course, you asked um how 534 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:32,720 you could um proceed with a deferral and a motion to defer is how you would do 535 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:36,240 that. So, I would entertain that at any time if that's what council wish to do. 536 00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:42,560 Although, I would say if council wish to do that, I would um specifically 537 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:47,200 set out what things you're deferring, what you're waiting for. Um I assume 538 00:43:45,119 --> 00:43:50,400 this hydrogeeological assessment or sorry, pardon me, the geote technical 539 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:54,400 investigation report would be one of those things. I don't know what else. 540 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:59,119 But I would say in fairness to the applicant, um if you're doing a 541 00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:05,599 deferral, then you should identify what of the what information you're looking 542 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:10,880 for um to have brought back um in order for council to have what it thinks it 543 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:17,599 needs to make a decision on this. Is there further discussion? 544 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:22,160 Councelor Duck, >> I don't know if this is a point of 545 00:44:19,599 --> 00:44:26,800 order, but we do have, I believe, the proponent in the room who keeps making 546 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:29,599 comments. Can we can we hear from him rather than having this? 547 00:44:28,319 --> 00:44:32,720 » No, we can't hear from members of the public. We're not in the public meeting 548 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:37,599 setting at this time. We can talk to the planner. You can ask questions of the 549 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:40,880 planner, the deputy mayor. >> Order. Come to order, please. Come to 550 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:46,480 order. It's not a public meeting. We're we're 551 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:50,960 uh going to proceed in normal process. We can talk to the planner if we want. 552 00:44:49,599 --> 00:44:57,920 Well, I'm sorry about that, but that isn't the case. The deputy mayor. 553 00:44:55,359 --> 00:45:04,480 » Um I'm I'm doing this on the fly, so I might might miss something. So, I'll um 554 00:45:02,079 --> 00:45:09,599 hope that a colleague if they if they notice that I missed something, but I 555 00:45:06,319 --> 00:45:17,359 would move that um um this item be deferred pending. Um uh there's comments 556 00:45:14,319 --> 00:45:26,119 in the report pending uh storm water considerations being fully addressed to 557 00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:26,119 the satisfaction of the town. Um that a 558 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:39,520 concerns regarding the absence of a hydro hydrogeeological assessment um be 559 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:44,280 addressed to the satisfaction of the town. that um 560 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:54,000 complete information regarding um the situation with Pete and its removal be 561 00:45:51,280 --> 00:46:01,280 provided um and the submission of a geotechnical investigation and report um 562 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:08,319 be submitted. Also, there was one more here. Uh, that the submission of a final 563 00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:12,800 phase 2 environmental site assessment be provided to the satisfaction of the town 564 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:18,319 of Sagging Shores. I'm sure I missed a couple, but those were the ones that 565 00:46:16,079 --> 00:46:23,760 were very specifically mentioned in the planning report as as being of concern 566 00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:26,240 to the town and not being completely addressed. 567 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:31,760 » All right. Well, that's Do you have that, the clerk? You have that recorded? 568 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:36,720 All right, it's moved by the deputy mayor. Is there a seconder for the 569 00:46:34,079 --> 00:46:42,119 deferral at this stage, seconded by councelor Demenky? We'll wait for the 570 00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:42,119 language here. 571 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:07,119 So I have a resolution. This is it. The council defer consideration of 572 00:47:06,079 --> 00:47:11,000 » Can you refresh? >> Oh, I have to refresh. Sorry. 573 00:47:14,240 --> 00:47:21,599 No. Okay. So here I see it. So the 574 00:47:19,599 --> 00:47:24,640 resolution uh moved by the deputy mayor, second by council Dinsky is that council 575 00:47:23,119 --> 00:47:29,280 defer consideration of draft plan of subdivision application S-20225.004 576 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:33,359 local official plan amendment application L-225-016 577 00:47:31,839 --> 00:47:38,319 and zoning by amendment application Z-2025-027 578 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:40,800 SKG holdings/chantry crossing and directed the following information be 579 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:44,079 submitted and reviewed to the satisfaction of the town prior to the 580 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:46,960 applications being brought back to council. storm water management 581 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:51,359 considerations and supporting information, a hydraological a 582 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:55,599 hydrogeeological assessment, complete information regarding the pete uh 583 00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:59,280 including its proposed removal, a geotechnical submission and supporting 584 00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:03,520 report and a phase three environmental site assessment 585 00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:10,560 discussion. The deputy mayor and then councelor stack and then councelor May. 586 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:15,200 » You did say storm water management there up front. Okay, thank you. 587 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:20,079 Okay, I have councelor stack and then councelor May. 588 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:24,480 » Sorry, I just wanted to clarify. So, I'm sure I'm just slow today. So, some 589 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:29,440 of the items that uh the deputy mayor indicated is basis for deferral. I just 590 00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:34,000 can um can the planner just confirm those were those have the final versions 591 00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:38,400 of those have been submitted to the town or have not been submitted? 592 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:42,720 » The planner. >> Yes. So for some of those reports uh for 593 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:47,520 example the storm water management report there is a preliminary storm 594 00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:51,839 water management report uh there are town staff comments on that but it is 595 00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:56,400 typical through the draft plan of subdivision process that a final report 596 00:48:54,000 --> 00:49:00,880 would be prepared as a condition of approval. So that would be an example 597 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:04,880 where it's fairly standard to have to have a final storm water management 598 00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:11,040 report submitted at a detailed design stage. uh the hydrogeeological report 599 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:15,440 town staff um as well as the the phase two and and I just wanted to clarify in 600 00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:21,440 the deferral it's phase two report instead of phase three um the that uh 601 00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:26,400 report my understanding is ready to be submitted by the proponent um but uh 602 00:49:24,559 --> 00:49:31,280 would still need to be reviewed by town staff so we have included it as well as 603 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:35,599 a condition of approval so all of the items I believe that um that uh that 604 00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:41,839 have been noted in the deferral ederal request are uh included as conditions of 605 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:46,079 draft approval. Um should council opt not to defer the application and instead 606 00:49:44,240 --> 00:49:49,599 endorse the the draft plan of subdivision in principle. 607 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:55,599 » Council stack. >> So could so just to maybe a discussion 608 00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:59,280 about the amendment. I'm I'm if the standard sort of the drainage items are 609 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:04,880 pretty standard to come in through the the next phase. I'm a bit more reticent 610 00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:07,839 to include in our condition like our deferral things that are pretty 611 00:50:06,319 --> 00:50:12,240 standard. I think where I would say is can we narrow can we further narrow the 612 00:50:09,599 --> 00:50:16,400 scope so we're not unduly delaying this. So I think the hydro geology would be 613 00:50:13,839 --> 00:50:21,359 the the issue that concerns me the most just for discussion. 614 00:50:19,599 --> 00:50:25,280 » Any comments for clarification any of that? 615 00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:31,599 Are there items here? Clarify for us. Are there items here that are um that we 616 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:36,880 would normally have at this stage of the process that we don't have uh items that 617 00:50:35,599 --> 00:50:41,680 have been listed? I mean, I think that's what council's coming down to here. 618 00:50:39,119 --> 00:50:47,599 There's a question about what should we have normally when we're when council's 619 00:50:44,319 --> 00:50:54,160 making a decision at this moment um that we don't have if anything um and which 620 00:50:51,119 --> 00:50:59,599 of these things would we normally uh only uh be considering after approval 621 00:50:56,720 --> 00:51:07,280 and at as a condition? Can you clarify that for us uh the planner? 622 00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:12,000 » Uh yes, thank you. So um there are often situations where we do have the 623 00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:16,880 necessary report. So in for example the applicant has made a resubmission. There 624 00:51:14,240 --> 00:51:20,559 are comments um for example from the consulting engineer doing peer review on 625 00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:25,920 behalf of the town where there are outstanding issues that are still to be 626 00:51:22,319 --> 00:51:31,359 resolved. And so we've had um through the county planner a recommendation that 627 00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:35,200 those matters um could be addressed through the preparation of a final 628 00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:39,359 report which is how we've had it worded in the conditions. So so we are 629 00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:44,160 comfortable providing the recommendation to council today that these matters can 630 00:51:41,839 --> 00:51:48,720 be addressed through final report to be submitted through the conditions of 631 00:51:45,599 --> 00:51:53,280 draft approval. Um and so I use the example of storm water management that 632 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:58,000 is a typical um we at the start of the process we do get a preliminary report 633 00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:02,480 and then as a condition of approval there is a final report. Now storm water 634 00:52:00,319 --> 00:52:08,319 conditions on this site I would say or or or maybe um town staff have expressed 635 00:52:06,319 --> 00:52:12,000 a concern with how infrastructure is going to handle that storm water and 636 00:52:10,240 --> 00:52:15,680 where that storm water is going and ensuring that it has properly taken into 637 00:52:14,079 --> 00:52:20,000 account existing development that's already there. things like that. And so 638 00:52:18,240 --> 00:52:23,680 there are issues that are still to be resolved, but they can be provided 639 00:52:21,599 --> 00:52:29,040 through a final report and a condition of approval. I would note um that if 640 00:52:26,319 --> 00:52:33,040 council does um decide to defer the applications this evening, um the the 641 00:52:31,599 --> 00:52:37,599 applicant has been in a position that they are able to appeal the applications 642 00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:41,920 for non-decision. Um they're already in that position and so I'll just flag that 643 00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:44,880 that that would be a potential risk uh to the applications if they are 644 00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:49,839 deferred. >> Okay. Councelor Halpin. Sorry, pardon 645 00:52:47,359 --> 00:52:52,800 me. Councelor Matt and Halpin. Sorry about that. 646 00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:59,440 » Yes. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. And through you, um I I don't see myself supporting 647 00:52:57,359 --> 00:53:05,839 the deferral. um backed up by the last comment that I 648 00:53:02,559 --> 00:53:09,359 just heard, but it seems to me that that the developer and I'm getting that 649 00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:14,000 impression somewhere that the developer has submitted all of the required 650 00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:19,200 documentation and all the reports and the studies that are required and that 651 00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:26,319 they are at some stage of being reviewed and approved and peer reviewed by town 652 00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:32,559 staff or consultants and uh and I don't I don't see that we wouldn't be able to 653 00:53:30,319 --> 00:53:37,599 satisfy the requirements of the bylaw. When we get the final approval and some 654 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:44,640 of these aren't done to our satisfaction at that time, council will have the 655 00:53:40,559 --> 00:53:49,440 ability to not approve the final draft subdivision. But there are the the 656 00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:54,079 process as it's been laid out is is one that we've seen before with draft plan 657 00:53:51,599 --> 00:53:58,160 subdivisions where uh some of the reviews haven't been maybe totally 658 00:53:55,599 --> 00:54:03,200 complete but and especially backed up by the fact that this was an approved 659 00:54:00,240 --> 00:54:08,160 subdivision previously. So a lot of those things would have had to have been 660 00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:13,359 done 20 years ago when this was approved the first time. So, I'm confident that 661 00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:18,720 that the developer has completed all the steps that he needs to do, and it's just 662 00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:23,440 a matter of the the staff and the developer 663 00:54:20,319 --> 00:54:27,200 reviewing and getting their eyes dotted and tees crossed in order for this to 664 00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:32,319 proceed to the county level. And then finally, it will come back here. And at 665 00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:36,720 that point, we will be insistent or whoever's sitting here will be insistent 666 00:54:34,559 --> 00:54:42,079 that everything is complete, everything's final, everything is done 667 00:54:38,559 --> 00:54:47,359 to the satisfaction of the town. So, I won't be supporting the deferral and I 668 00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:50,240 will be supporting the original motion, which is to approve the draft plan of 669 00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:56,240 subdivision. Thank you. >> I just want to clarify the process there 670 00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:59,359 because um so plans of subdivision receive final approval at the county 671 00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:03,920 level, right? they don't come back to the town. So, it'll be it'll go from 672 00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:07,920 here because they're the approval authority for a plan of subdivision that 673 00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:12,160 the county council is. So, um so there's no this is the last decision that this 674 00:55:09,839 --> 00:55:15,440 council will make everything from this point forward assuming we do this. We're 675 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:19,119 recommending in principle that the county approves approval authority 676 00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:24,800 approve the draft plan subdivision. County council won't even take up a cons 677 00:55:23,119 --> 00:55:28,880 of subdivision without such a motion having been passed by the lower tier 678 00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:34,800 council. But they are the f they are the decision maker. Um from this point 679 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:39,599 forward um implementation will fall to staff. So at that point enforcement of 680 00:55:37,599 --> 00:55:44,800 the draft of the con the conditions that are now in draft or the d the conditions 681 00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:50,480 of draft approval will be undertaken by uh town staff primarily just for clarity 682 00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:55,839 about how this all goes. Okay. Is that clear enough? 683 00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:59,440 Yeah, I think it is clear. But um will when it gets to county council, 684 00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:05,119 will county does county council give it the same level of scrutiny that we 685 00:56:02,799 --> 00:56:10,880 apparently are here today or do they kind of take our word for it that if the 686 00:56:08,079 --> 00:56:15,280 town's passed it, it must be okay? Well, my experience, county counselors 687 00:56:12,319 --> 00:56:20,240 are diligent about their work. They also uh do um pay close attention to the 688 00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:23,520 recommendations of lower tier councils with respect to things happening in 689 00:56:21,839 --> 00:56:28,480 their municipalities give a great deal of difference generally to lower tier 690 00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:33,839 councils unless there's some kind of um very obvious problem. 691 00:56:31,839 --> 00:56:38,720 Uh the [clears throat] council helping then deputy mayor. 692 00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:44,000 » Thank you, mayor. through you. I I'm I'm not supportive of the length of [snorts] 693 00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:47,200 the list of reasons for deferment. There there's only one thing that I'm 694 00:56:45,359 --> 00:56:52,319 concerned about and that's the storm water management plan. And perhaps I 695 00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:59,119 shouldn't be, but but so what does it look like if it comes back to to us that 696 00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:05,200 it's that line that scares me so much about the downstream infrastructure 697 00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:09,280 required? what what happens or what's the likelihood of that happening? It 698 00:57:07,599 --> 00:57:13,200 just that's the only thing I'm really uncomfortable with because it just seems 699 00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:17,119 so open-ended, you know, like if there is. So, what 700 00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:25,760 does it look like if they say, "Oh, well, we we've got to do um um you know, 701 00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:32,400 we we we have to do upgrades to drain 12." Like, what does that look like or 702 00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:35,440 what happens then? the planner. 703 00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:40,079 » Uh yes, thank you uh through you, Mayor Charbano. So um if the draft plan of 704 00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:43,920 subdivision were to be approved with the the conditions before you today, the 705 00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:48,079 applicant would then start working towards addressing those conditions. So 706 00:57:46,079 --> 00:57:51,200 for example, um to address the storm water management, they would need to 707 00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:55,520 provide a final storm water management report and with and within that report, 708 00:57:53,839 --> 00:58:00,960 it would provide recommendations that are required to to implement their their 709 00:57:58,079 --> 00:58:05,680 plan. If that report was not to the satisfaction of town staff and its 710 00:58:03,359 --> 00:58:11,200 consulting engineer, then town staff would not be able to write what we refer 711 00:58:07,599 --> 00:58:15,359 to as a clearance letter. So any agency uh and the municipality who are listed 712 00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:20,960 as clearance agencies in the conditions of draft approval are required to submit 713 00:58:18,319 --> 00:58:24,720 a letter to the county indicating how the conditions have been addressed and 714 00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:28,880 if they're satisfied that that final approval can be given. If for some 715 00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:32,960 reason storm water couldn't be addressed, um there was not an 716 00:58:30,799 --> 00:58:36,720 appropriate resolution, then there would be no clearance letter from the 717 00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:40,880 municipality and the county would not be able to recommend final approval, in 718 00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:45,680 which case the applicant would not be able to create the lots. However, they 719 00:58:43,119 --> 00:58:50,240 would still have the the designations and the zoning in place. So so they 720 00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:54,839 could come back and and submit um another application at another time. 721 00:58:55,359 --> 00:59:01,760 » Okay. Thank you. So, this would be the last time that this comes before 722 00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:06,960 council, but it's not the last time that it receives the scrutiny of the town of 723 00:59:04,559 --> 00:59:12,079 Sine Shores. Is that a correct statement to say? 724 00:59:09,599 --> 00:59:15,200 » Yes, thank you. That that is correct. The detailed design is where you get 725 00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:19,680 into the very detailed engineering drawings and submissions and um 726 00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:24,720 resolving any outstanding comments or concerns that had been provided by by 727 00:59:21,839 --> 00:59:30,160 town staff, their engineer and uh the applicable agencies. 728 00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:37,839 » Council Coin, >> uh thank you. It is this list of things 729 00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:44,240 that need to be finished up. That's what kind of scared me away. Is this list 730 00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:52,400 bigger than a lot of lists or or or like uh is it common to have this many things 731 00:59:47,839 --> 00:59:55,599 that we're waiting for the final on the planner? 732 00:59:54,000 --> 01:00:00,480 » I don't know if I can necessarily answer that question. Uh each each file is 733 00:59:57,839 --> 01:00:06,000 different um and dependent on on the site conditions um and the issues that 734 01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:09,040 are being brought forward. >> Yep. Council Helen. 735 01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:13,839 » Thank you, Mayor. Through you and last one. I I won't support the deferment as 736 01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:18,880 it stands. Thank you. >> Okay. The deputy mayor. 737 01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:23,280 » Um thank you and through you, Mr. Mayor. Uh 738 01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:29,119 thanks Councelor Halpin for that. I was making it up on the fly. Um in the uh 739 01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:33,839 report that we received there is an indication in there about um related to 740 01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:38,240 storm water management and master servicing and that sort of thing that 741 01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:43,280 the plan plans that exist didn't take into 742 01:00:40,559 --> 01:00:50,240 account this project specifically that it's it's a little bit different. I 743 01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:55,599 really um don't think that um you know the information that the planner just 744 01:00:51,839 --> 01:00:59,680 provided about um how there's um the potential for an appeal and that you 745 01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:03,440 know that timeliness passed that wasn't in anything that we received. So I'm I'm 746 01:01:01,599 --> 01:01:09,040 a little bit concerned that that's just gets dropped into the conversation. it 747 01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:15,119 seems um a little bit desperate um in some ways and I would hope that any 748 01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:20,319 developer hoping um to have a good project in our community um respects 749 01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:25,359 public input and counselor input enough to recognize that you know ultimately we 750 01:01:23,119 --> 01:01:29,040 want what's good for the community. Um they I think want what's good for the 751 01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:34,240 community too and expect to make a little bit of profit from it or a lot of 752 01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:40,000 profit as as the case may be. But I I would like to believe that a a developer 753 01:01:36,319 --> 01:01:44,559 would not put the threat um over anybody on on council or planning staff that 754 01:01:42,319 --> 01:01:50,240 well, I'll just take this out on appeal. So that that that took me by surprise 755 01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:54,160 when that was said um because I do think that there's some merit to the whole 756 01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:58,880 project. I really think that that there's some fundamental information 757 01:01:56,480 --> 01:02:04,319 missing um from what we're seeing before us. this is the last time we're going to 758 01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:10,640 see this and ultimately, you know, our staff then have to quote unquote figure 759 01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:15,359 it out. Um, and um, sometimes I think we should be providing them with a little 760 01:02:12,559 --> 01:02:21,359 more substantial um, information or support or a decision that then gives 761 01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:25,359 them the the impetus um, or the the confidence to follow through with some 762 01:02:23,359 --> 01:02:28,799 things. There's an awful lot of unanswered questions. And when an 763 01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:33,359 engineering firm, Burnside, that we hired to provide us with advice, when 764 01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:36,880 their report tells us that this is missing, that they can't comment on this 765 01:02:35,119 --> 01:02:40,720 because there's not enough information, I think we should take that seriously. I 766 01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:45,520 respect what the planner said though about, you know, that it's typical that 767 01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:50,720 there are some um things that aren't completely finished. However, there's an 768 01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:57,839 awful lot that was mentioned to us as not being finished. So um if if it would 769 01:02:54,319 --> 01:03:01,200 um you know be helpful um even just getting the deferral on the basis of 770 01:02:59,599 --> 01:03:06,160 storm water management that would be okay with me too. Um but I just think 771 01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:10,559 that that there are enough unanswered questions here that a slight pause to 772 01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:15,359 enable some of these reviews to take place to have some questions answered 773 01:03:12,559 --> 01:03:20,319 will give our staff the ability to better represent the town's interest in 774 01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:24,079 the process and that they won't have to figure it out. that there will be some 775 01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:28,319 information before them that they can then make good decisions using that 776 01:03:25,839 --> 01:03:33,119 information as well. So, um I don't think we should be afraid of of a that 777 01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:37,920 the timeline has passed on going for an appeal. I would like to believe that a 778 01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:42,400 developer who's been listening and I think has obviously listened because 779 01:03:39,839 --> 01:03:48,640 there have been some adjustments made that they have um an interest in um 780 01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:53,520 respecting the community enough to um to take take a little little um 781 01:03:51,599 --> 01:03:57,280 interruption I guess in the process to have a slight delay to get some other 782 01:03:55,520 --> 01:04:01,839 information before the people that it matters to have us receive information 783 01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:08,319 that should matter to us. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. So if if there's a way that I can 784 01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:12,640 shorten the um the uh request to defer down to just the storm water management 785 01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:16,960 situation, I will do that. Um in respect of what councelor um Halpin has said, 786 01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:20,480 » you're the mover, so you can do that as long as the secondary agrees. 787 01:04:18,319 --> 01:04:25,200 » Well, I then I will do that. >> All right. So that's just an amendment 788 01:04:23,039 --> 01:04:28,400 made by the mover and secondary to the motion on the floor and we'll get the 789 01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:31,920 vice deputy mayor. >> I be brief. I don't think anyone's 790 01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:35,680 saying we're not respecting public input. I think we had a really really 791 01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:40,160 good public meeting here and the room was full and lots was said and I think 792 01:04:38,559 --> 01:04:43,039 the developers have gone back and made some very positive changes this 793 01:04:41,599 --> 01:04:46,079 development. So I don't think anyone's saying we're not respecting public 794 01:04:44,319 --> 01:04:49,760 input. I think we've really respected respected public input. I think they 795 01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:54,880 have listened. So I think they've done some good things with adjusting the uh 796 01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:59,440 the development. I I you know the arguments presented tonight I I'm 797 01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:02,720 wondering and I kind of agree with that statement with the interior land 798 01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:07,200 tribunal. I'm not sure this will stand stand up to the test of time with the 799 01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:10,079 arguments being made, but um I you know I I think the planner as Karine I think 800 01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:15,200 you've done a really good job as the planner with this recommendation and you 801 01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:20,079 know I I go back I go right back to um I won't be supporting the deferral but I I 802 01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:25,119 go right back to that council support in principle 803 01:05:23,119 --> 01:05:28,640 subject to resolution through condition of draft approval of an outstanding 804 01:05:27,119 --> 01:05:33,039 issues and I agree as council may everything you said subject to 805 01:05:31,039 --> 01:05:36,319 resolution through conditions of draft approval. So, I think I've done a really 806 01:05:34,799 --> 01:05:40,720 good job with the report. I think there's room to make sure the developer 807 01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:48,160 gets to the county, to the town what we're requesting. And um so I I I just 808 01:05:46,319 --> 01:05:53,680 think we're delaying delaying delaying. We don't need to delay. I really uh so I 809 01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:57,920 won't be supporting the I won't be supporting the deferral. Will be 810 01:05:56,240 --> 01:06:02,079 supporting the recommendation. >> Okay. Councelor Stack. 811 01:06:00,319 --> 01:06:05,760 Um, I hate admitting this, but I think I 812 01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:12,400 might be changing my mind uh on the fly. And I think the reason is um 813 01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:17,119 so when we did the the Market Street uh vote almost four years ago, uh we ended 814 01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:21,680 up in in front of the land tribunal, we were unsuccessful. And I think what just 815 01:06:19,119 --> 01:06:26,079 causes me a bit of consternation and why I'm pausing on my original position is, 816 01:06:24,079 --> 01:06:31,200 you know, that comment that has been made and now we've sort of articulated 817 01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:34,960 potential legal positions about the strength of our argument on the public 818 01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:40,480 record which is not putting us in a great spot. Um 819 01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:44,319 so I think on that basis I'm going to avoid the I'm 820 01:06:42,799 --> 01:06:49,039 going to take a fairly risk informed decision and say let's you know I think 821 01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:53,280 we will have to follow the process which does not suggest that they are not 822 01:06:50,559 --> 01:06:59,440 without obligation to comply with the final conditions and I think the one 823 01:06:55,680 --> 01:07:04,559 question I had is going back to sort of the drainage issue if they if they are 824 01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:08,079 unable to demonstrate that they can I don't know address the drain drainage 825 01:07:05,839 --> 01:07:13,039 concerns appropriately. That is is that the basis upon which the 826 01:07:10,319 --> 01:07:19,839 county can according to the planning act deny the the final plan of subdivision? 827 01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:25,039 » Planner, >> sorry, could you just uh ask that 828 01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:30,720 question again please? So if and I'll if they don't if at in 829 01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:34,960 the end the developer does not meet the drainage conditions such that the 830 01:07:32,559 --> 01:07:39,359 existing infrastructure can't can't support it or whatever they can't meet 831 01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:44,640 the they can't address the issues raised in the in the report before us and so we 832 01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:48,319 can't sign we can't provide the clear the town can't provide the clearance 833 01:07:46,079 --> 01:07:53,200 letter and that goes to the county. the lack of a clearance letter. Can someone 834 01:07:50,960 --> 01:08:00,000 confirm to me that that's a legal basis upon which the county can decline a a 835 01:07:57,119 --> 01:08:05,680 subdivision approval? >> The planner. 836 01:08:02,559 --> 01:08:10,240 » Uh yes, through you. So, uh if we don't get the required clearance agency 837 01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:15,799 letters, then then we would not be recommending um final approval of the 838 01:08:12,799 --> 01:08:15,799 application. 839 01:08:16,719 --> 01:08:22,480 » Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead, Cal. >> Sorry, I'm going to be just a bit 840 01:08:18,719 --> 01:08:29,920 pnikity. The planning act entitles the county to say no when the conditions the 841 01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:33,040 the conditions are not met. >> The planner? 842 01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:37,759 » Yes, that's correct. >> Could I just clarify that though? 843 01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:42,640 Because to be clear, um like what happens is the draft plan subdivision 844 01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:46,880 goes to county council. County council approves the draft plan with the 845 01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:51,040 conditions. then the condition then the applicant um does the work and then 846 01:08:49,679 --> 01:08:55,199 their business isn't with the county anymore. It's with the town like in 847 01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:58,719 terms of clearing those conditions at least the ones that are subject are 848 01:08:56,799 --> 01:09:02,719 overseen by the town. Right. It's not just to be clear like 849 01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:07,440 it's not as like I think councelor Sack was was trying was asking and maybe I'm 850 01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:10,880 not saying what you're say what you were saying councelor stack so correct me if 851 01:09:08,799 --> 01:09:14,080 I'm wrong but that somehow this that these clearance letters would impact 852 01:09:12,400 --> 01:09:18,719 decision-m by county council but that isn't the case because all of that 853 01:09:15,759 --> 01:09:22,000 happens after approval by the county approval authority and then the 854 01:09:20,319 --> 01:09:28,159 implementation of the conditions happens downstream from there in a staff to to 855 01:09:24,799 --> 01:09:34,080 applicant basis. Am I right about that? Uh yes, thank you, Mayor Charbano. So um 856 01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:40,000 for final approval, the county does um provide sign off um or a clearance that 857 01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:43,679 would allow the applicant to create the lots. So if we don't get that final 858 01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:48,400 clearance letter from from the town or other agencies listed in the conditions, 859 01:09:46,239 --> 01:09:54,000 um which would include a final agreement uh being entered into between the the 860 01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:58,000 proponent and the town, um then we could potentially bring that back to county 861 01:09:55,520 --> 01:10:02,239 council. Right now that is a delegated um staff exercise for final approval. 862 01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:06,719 » Just to be clear though that that happens after council county council 863 01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:10,800 approved the draft plan and it happens at the staff level the county staff 864 01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:14,080 level and the town staff level unless there's some major problem. Sorry 865 01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:17,840 councelor stag. >> Yeah. So that generally aligns with with 866 01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:22,320 what I think I heard the first time. When you say we could direct direct it 867 01:10:20,480 --> 01:10:26,800 back to county council rather than staff. Is that 868 01:10:24,480 --> 01:10:31,600 pos? Is that what I heard? >> The planner. 869 01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:35,360 » Uh, yes. I'll have to look that up because I quite honestly haven't been 870 01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:39,840 through that that situation before. But that is my understanding is that um if 871 01:10:38,239 --> 01:10:44,800 it wasn't able to be resolved at the staff level, then we would bring that 872 01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:49,600 back to county council. >> Okay. Uh, councelor Dinsky. Sorry, 873 01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:55,600 Council Dinsky. >> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Through you. Just 874 01:10:52,080 --> 01:11:01,280 a couple of clarifications here. So the deputy mayor said and I've seconded that 875 01:10:59,679 --> 01:11:05,520 we defer the drainage 876 01:11:03,679 --> 01:11:11,120 issue. If that doesn't pass, does that mean 877 01:11:08,719 --> 01:11:15,520 approval in principle passes or do we have to have a a a vote on that? 878 01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:20,640 » No. this. So there's we your council is currently considering a motion to defer 879 01:11:17,199 --> 01:11:24,159 the entire application pending um further information on the storm water 880 01:11:22,480 --> 01:11:27,440 management question. Should that pass, it will be deferred. Should it fail, 881 01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:32,800 then we'll go back to considering the main question. 882 01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:38,719 Is there is that clear enough, council? >> Yeah, just hold on for a second. 883 01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:45,040 Uh oh. Oh, yes. I'm fine. I'm fine. 884 01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:51,199 » All right. Is there any further comments or questions before we consider the 885 01:11:46,480 --> 01:11:55,560 deferral? I um just wanted to uh comment. I think um 886 01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:59,440 now [clears throat] I'm kind of lost. I've lost my train of thought. I'm 887 01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:10,960 thinking about too many things. I think the uh the question um 888 01:12:04,159 --> 01:12:17,280 to me comes down to um you know in this draft plan of um subdivision there's I I 889 01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:21,760 don't know I guess I'm lost trying to think trying to get to where I was where 890 01:12:19,199 --> 01:12:27,280 I was where my mind was at but now I forgot. Sorry about that. Um 891 01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:37,840 yeah, I guess that's the question like condition 12 um in here. Uh what happens 892 01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:40,719 if the recommendation can't be um can't be carried out without changing the 893 01:12:39,440 --> 01:12:45,120 plan? I mean that's what it comes down to for me, right? So if we get these 894 01:12:42,719 --> 01:12:51,920 hydrogeeological or geotechnical investigation, storm water management 895 01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:59,199 studies and we find um at at some point downstream, pardon the pun, that um 896 01:12:56,880 --> 01:13:02,159 you know this thing isn't going to work the way it's laid out, the way the 897 01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:08,880 subdivision is designed, the way it's been approved. Um you know what happens 898 01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:14,800 at that point? I guess at that point the applicant, the developer has to come 899 01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:18,400 back and make revisions to this plan, right? Like that's where we're at. 900 01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:23,040 That's to me like it's a little confusing because we have this plan in 901 01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:27,760 front of us. It's contingent on some information that we don't yet have. 902 01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:31,040 That's not wholly unusual, but there are some things about this that may be a 903 01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:37,360 little different from what we've seen before. Um, if if that were to happen 904 01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:42,640 and those contingencies arose and changes had to be made to what we're 905 01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:48,000 considering approving tonight, what would happen then? Would would it be 906 01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:54,560 then on town staff or county staff to make changes or does it come back to 907 01:13:50,640 --> 01:13:57,199 council to change the plan the planner? 908 01:13:55,520 --> 01:14:01,920 » Yes, thank you mayor Sharono for the question. So uh if through uh detailed 909 01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:07,120 design so if the draft plan of subdivision was draft approved by the 910 01:14:03,920 --> 01:14:11,840 county and the applicant needed to make some adjustments to the lot lines or the 911 01:14:09,440 --> 01:14:16,480 blocks for example then that would be a revision to the draft plan of 912 01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:22,239 subdivision. So it would it be dependent on the extent of the proposed changes. 913 01:14:19,440 --> 01:14:26,560 So there are two streams. Um one is a major revision which would come back to 914 01:14:24,159 --> 01:14:31,280 town council. Um and then there are minor revisions so minor adjustments to 915 01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:36,960 lot lines and things like that which is a staff level um recommendation. 916 01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:44,400 So I guess that's the point for me like as long as it's understood by the 917 01:14:40,080 --> 01:14:52,640 applicant u by the community by council that you know if we if if the work that 918 01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:58,320 is yet to be done identifies issues that cannot be resolved within the context of 919 01:14:54,560 --> 01:15:01,679 this plan then then the applicant is going to have to come back and go 920 01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:09,040 through this process all over again to revise this plan. It seems risky to me 921 01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:12,400 for the applicant to hopefully they understand that and have 922 01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:16,000 a solid enough understanding based on the information in hand that that won't 923 01:15:13,679 --> 01:15:21,920 be the case. But that's it is a bit of a risk that exists and that and that has 924 01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:26,560 to be understood by everyone. Um and I assume that it is. I guess that is that 925 01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:29,760 that's that's a fair enough description of everybody's understanding the 926 01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:34,560 planner. Yes, that would be typical. Uh in in the 927 01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:37,440 case of detailed design where there are changes, then there would need to be a 928 01:15:36,159 --> 01:15:42,320 revision to the draft plan of subdivision. And again, dependent on the 929 01:15:40,159 --> 01:15:46,560 the scope of the changes, it would be a major or minor revision and potentially 930 01:15:44,719 --> 01:15:51,199 would trigger further amendments as well. So, it may come back to town 931 01:15:48,159 --> 01:15:55,520 council for a zoning bylaw amendment if you know setbacks or something were 932 01:15:52,880 --> 01:16:00,159 impacted uh because of this realignment of of boundaries. And I think also it 933 01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:03,840 needs to be made clear that you know as councelor Halpin pointed out in 934 01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:07,280 condition 13 the final sentence there cost to design and construct 935 01:16:05,679 --> 01:16:13,360 improvements to the downstream stormed drainage is is at this point at least 936 01:16:10,880 --> 01:16:18,800 not totally and completely understood what that might look like. Um so it has 937 01:16:16,239 --> 01:16:24,239 to be understood today by council by the applicant that that could be a very 938 01:16:21,199 --> 01:16:27,600 costly project. We don't know what it we don't necessarily exactly know what it 939 01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:33,360 will look like and I have to and to be clear like the town of Saging Chores is 940 01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:37,760 not going to absorb any of that cost and uh and it's going to be firm in its 941 01:16:35,280 --> 01:16:42,800 negotiating position on that. Uh right. So I think again although we don't fully 942 01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:46,480 understand necessarily sitting here today what that will look like, it's 943 01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:51,440 required in here and the town is going to be firm in holding the line and and 944 01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:55,040 requiring those items. I suppose that's just a statement that I'm making, but 945 01:16:52,880 --> 01:16:58,719 these are some of the things I just um it's an unusual situation we're in 946 01:16:56,560 --> 01:17:03,600 because we have a bit of a we have a bit of a split brain here between our county 947 01:17:01,840 --> 01:17:06,960 planner and the position of the town. And that's why we're struggling a bit 948 01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:10,239 here because we've read from the town some concern and the planners are 949 01:17:08,480 --> 01:17:15,520 recommending approval and we're that's why council is trying to mediate between 950 01:17:12,719 --> 01:17:19,520 those two positions and find the right spot. And I think it just has to be 951 01:17:17,199 --> 01:17:22,880 clear like the town's concerns are legitimate concerns. I'm not sure their 952 01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:29,040 concerns are with the overall development, but they are with the 953 01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:33,199 potential challenges that come with having to do this uh with making this 954 01:17:31,600 --> 01:17:38,880 approval without some of the information that they feel they need. So, um I think 955 01:17:36,159 --> 01:17:43,360 we're protected in this draft uh in these conditions of draft approval, but 956 01:17:41,120 --> 01:17:48,400 but it has to be understood by all that the town is going to um you know, it's 957 01:17:46,480 --> 01:17:54,960 going to uphold these conditions and and if it and if the worst happens and uh 958 01:17:52,400 --> 01:18:00,400 some of these um things we don't know yet turn out to require major changes to 959 01:17:57,280 --> 01:18:03,360 this plan of subdivision, then um it's just not going to get those signoffs and 960 01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:09,360 it's going to end up have to come back here to get changed. So that has to be 961 01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:13,440 well understood. Um all right those are my comments. Uh do you have a comment? 962 01:18:12,239 --> 01:18:18,640 Yeah the director. >> Yeah just a brief comment just in terms 963 01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:22,880 of and I know in terms of the deferral motion in terms of storm water 964 01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:26,640 management plan but um hydro geological studies geotechnical studies are often 965 01:18:24,960 --> 01:18:30,159 required to complete the storm water management plan. So I would suggest in 966 01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:34,560 terms of if you're moving forward with that motion that you incorporate 967 01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:39,120 hydrogeeological and the geotechnical to inform the storm water management plan 968 01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:43,280 if that's clear. >> Okay. Yeah. The deputy mayor and council 969 01:18:40,719 --> 01:18:51,280 Dinsky agree to that. Okay. I'll reread it once the 970 01:18:47,440 --> 01:18:55,719 clerk has updated it. What are the two things? 971 01:18:52,719 --> 01:18:55,719 » Hydrogen. 972 01:19:05,360 --> 01:19:11,679 Let me just or do you have something? Is it specific 973 01:19:09,760 --> 01:19:15,960 to the revisions the clerk is making to the motion? The deputy mayor. 974 01:19:17,440 --> 01:19:27,360 Should the motion fail, um, if are all of these reports that are are 975 01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:31,040 indicated as, you know, the owner that the owner submit this, that the owner 976 01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:36,239 submit that, that the owner do this, will all of those reports eventually 977 01:19:33,120 --> 01:19:41,040 show up on the public information that is available about this application? 978 01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:45,520 Will that will that all be updated as those things are received? 979 01:19:43,920 --> 01:19:49,679 » The planner, >> uh, thank you for the question. So, if 980 01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:54,080 the reports are submitted before the county takes a report to county council 981 01:19:52,320 --> 01:19:57,920 for a decision on the subdivision, then they will be posted online. But we after 982 01:19:56,400 --> 01:20:01,920 a decision is rendered on an application, we typically remove all of 983 01:19:59,920 --> 01:20:06,719 the materials from the website. So, anything that is submitted uh through 984 01:20:04,719 --> 01:20:10,880 should the subdivision be approved, anything that is submitted in response 985 01:20:08,480 --> 01:20:16,239 to conditions of approval uh would not be posted on on the website. 986 01:20:14,880 --> 01:20:21,440 » Okay. We're going to consider this motion to defer now. I just Is the 987 01:20:18,480 --> 01:20:24,400 wording together there? I don't know why it's 988 01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:27,360 I may have to read it off yours. I'm not seeing it there. All right. So, one more 989 01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:31,120 time. This is the motion to defer. Then the council defer consideration of draft 990 01:20:29,120 --> 01:20:36,000 plan of plan of subdivision application S2025.004 991 01:20:32,880 --> 01:20:41,199 local official plan amendment L-225.016 and zoning bylaw amendment Z-2025.027 992 01:20:38,320 --> 01:20:44,320 027 SKG Holdings and direct that the following information be submitted and 993 01:20:42,719 --> 01:20:48,320 reviewed to the satisfaction of the town prior to the applications being brought 994 01:20:45,920 --> 01:20:51,440 back to council. Hydrogeeological and geotechnical studies to inform the storm 995 01:20:50,080 --> 01:20:56,239 water management considerations and supporting information. It has been 996 01:20:53,520 --> 01:21:00,400 moved and seconded. So I'll ask all in favor [clears throat] 997 01:20:58,719 --> 01:21:05,040 opposed. That's defeated. All right. So now we're 998 01:21:02,239 --> 01:21:09,920 back to the main question. Uh and the main question is already 999 01:21:07,280 --> 01:21:16,239 moved and seconded by uh Halpen and Mette. Uh any further questions or 1000 01:21:12,320 --> 01:21:19,960 comments uh to the resolution? I might go ahead councelor Helpin. 1001 01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:29,760 » Thank you Marin through you. I you know my my big concern was about just the 1002 01:21:26,080 --> 01:21:37,199 amount of things that are left and my other big concern was what safeguard 1003 01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:43,199 does the town have and after listening you know I I you know that if this 1004 01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:48,560 doesn't come back as the mayor said our staff will be diligent if this stuff 1005 01:21:45,360 --> 01:21:55,440 doesn't come back and that can stop it. Okay. So, it's not like if we advance 1006 01:21:52,159 --> 01:22:00,480 this that we've given up any safeguards. We we haven't uh we haven't said that 1007 01:21:57,760 --> 01:22:05,760 we're not going to enforce the letter of the law and make sure every I is dotted 1008 01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:10,560 and every te is crossed and everything is met. So, 1009 01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:13,520 there there's just a lot of them on the list though for me this time. Okay. 1010 01:22:12,800 --> 01:22:17,600 Thank you. >> Thank you for the further comments. I 1011 01:22:15,600 --> 01:22:23,760 might just comment that I think it's a a good development. uh in a you know uh a 1012 01:22:21,280 --> 01:22:28,800 location that has been planned uh to be developed for a very long time. Uh and 1013 01:22:26,480 --> 01:22:34,320 uh they've uh made some adjustments here. It's a good opportunity for us to 1014 01:22:31,920 --> 01:22:38,719 um get municipal ownership over the rail trail there which I think is very 1015 01:22:35,600 --> 01:22:42,400 positive thing. Um and they've made some adjustments to make the development make 1016 01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:47,600 a little more sense I think than the than it did the last time it was um 1017 01:22:45,280 --> 01:22:53,840 draft plan approved. So I think it it works a little better and um completes 1018 01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:59,360 this uh uh long planned uh area of Southampton. So um so I think it'll be a 1019 01:22:56,960 --> 01:23:04,000 good development and um and as councelor Halpin noted, I don't think although 1020 01:23:01,679 --> 01:23:09,280 council and the town have sort of just spent uh an hour and a half struggling 1021 01:23:06,719 --> 01:23:12,560 about uh some of the questions here, I really think it comes down to the risk. 1022 01:23:11,280 --> 01:23:16,159 You know, it's the applicant who's taking the risk here, not the 1023 01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:20,800 municipality. the applicant is wants to advance this uh wants it here today. 1024 01:23:18,400 --> 01:23:24,880 It's here today. Um the unanswered questions, they have to answer them and 1025 01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:28,159 if they and if they aren't answered to the satisfaction of the subdivision 1026 01:23:26,159 --> 01:23:32,880 agreement, um the subdivision can't go ahead. And so it's it's really more 1027 01:23:30,239 --> 01:23:36,159 their risk than ours in my view. But um but I wish them the best because I hope 1028 01:23:34,320 --> 01:23:40,480 the development uh proceeds in accordance with all these rules because 1029 01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:45,280 I think it'll be a good development. So, um, if there's nothing further, then all 1030 01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:50,080 in favor and opposed. That's carried. Thank you. 1031 01:23:48,080 --> 01:23:56,040 All right. So, now we're on to item seven. Oh, sorry about that. Yes. Get 1032 01:23:52,320 --> 01:23:56,040 counselor Grace back. 1033 01:24:26,400 --> 01:24:32,639 Okay, now we're on item 7.2, community improvement plan development charges 1034 01:24:30,080 --> 01:24:36,480 review, and we'll turn that over to our planning policy coordinator. 1035 01:24:35,440 --> 01:24:40,400 » Thank you. Thank you and through you, Mayor Shero. To provide a brief 1036 01:24:38,719 --> 01:24:44,800 background on this file, an initial public meeting was held on May 19th, 1037 01:24:42,320 --> 01:24:49,679 2026, where the draft supplementary housing CIP update was presented and 1038 01:24:47,120 --> 01:24:55,520 discussed. Following this, at the June 8th, 2026 Council meeting, a draft 1039 01:24:52,480 --> 01:24:59,760 update to the DC bylaw was considered. At that time, direction was given to 1040 01:24:57,280 --> 01:25:04,800 remove all discretionary exemptions from the town's DC bylaw and to incorporate 1041 01:25:01,840 --> 01:25:08,960 those exemptions into the CIP. Following this direction, a review of the existing 1042 01:25:07,280 --> 01:25:13,280 incentive programs was conducted by Sierra Planning and Management. 1043 01:25:11,440 --> 01:25:17,120 The intention of this staff report, the consultant's memo and presentation 1044 01:25:15,040 --> 01:25:20,400 attached is to provide an update on the scope and rationale of the planned 1045 01:25:18,880 --> 01:25:25,360 changes to the community improvement plan prior to further draft amendments 1046 01:25:23,040 --> 01:25:28,719 being prepared. We have consultants online from Sierra Planning and 1047 01:25:26,880 --> 01:25:32,400 Management, Jonathan Hack, and Lindseay Cudmore. And I'll now turn it over to 1048 01:25:30,639 --> 01:25:37,920 Lindsay online to walk through the incentives review in more detail. 1049 01:25:35,520 --> 01:25:42,320 » Great. Thank you, Jordan. Uh, good evening, Mayor Charbano and members of 1050 01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:47,120 council. Tonight, I'll provide a highle overview of the community improvement 1051 01:25:45,040 --> 01:25:52,080 plan review being undertaken in response to the town's new development charge 1052 01:25:49,520 --> 01:25:56,080 bylaw. Uh the purpose of today's presentation is really to summarize what 1053 01:25:53,760 --> 01:26:02,320 has changed uh identify where potential incentive gap incentive gaps may um 1054 01:25:59,920 --> 01:26:07,120 exist and to outline areas that we believe warrant further consideration 1055 01:26:04,480 --> 01:26:10,520 through the CIP review process. Next slide please. 1056 01:26:12,800 --> 01:26:22,400 So, the purpose of the re review um the new development charge bylaw removed 1057 01:26:17,760 --> 01:26:26,480 several discretionary exemptions that um lower development costs for certain 1058 01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:32,159 types of projects. Um subsequently, council directed staff to review whether 1059 01:26:28,639 --> 01:26:36,880 the CIP should uh respond to these um exemptions that were lost. and our 1060 01:26:34,639 --> 01:26:44,560 review really identifies what's already covered elsewhere and where some of the 1061 01:26:39,679 --> 01:26:50,000 um gaps exist. Um gaps remain. Um a key outcome of our review is that the focus 1062 01:26:46,719 --> 01:26:54,320 has really we've been able to narrow it to um industrial and commercial core 1063 01:26:52,320 --> 01:26:58,400 development specifically. I can go through the the next few slides sort of 1064 01:26:56,080 --> 01:27:03,840 detail that a bit more. Um but just a note on this slide here, we wanted to 1065 01:27:00,320 --> 01:27:08,800 reiterate that any future uh incentives provided through new or modified CIP 1066 01:27:06,400 --> 01:27:14,239 programs will um you know have an obligation require a municipal funding 1067 01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:17,639 commitment to be able to fund them. Next slide please. 1068 01:27:18,960 --> 01:27:26,639 So what's changed? Um so in a bit more detail here um on the left we're 1069 01:27:25,120 --> 01:27:32,639 providing um the exemptions that were in the 1070 01:27:29,280 --> 01:27:37,760 former DC bylaw um and detailing how it's covered now. Um so most housing 1071 01:27:35,280 --> 01:27:42,880 related exemptions continue to receive support either through the development 1072 01:27:39,840 --> 01:27:49,280 charges act with um the exemptions and reductions in place there as well as 1073 01:27:45,199 --> 01:27:54,800 through the proposed um half programs um that we've developed um that were 1074 01:27:51,840 --> 01:27:59,199 brought at the May 19th council meeting. Um vacant building redevelopment 1075 01:27:56,719 --> 01:28:05,520 exemption remains in the DC bylaw with a few um language changes. Uh, industrial 1076 01:28:02,880 --> 01:28:09,280 development no longer has broad relief beyond the legislative expansion 1077 01:28:07,679 --> 01:28:14,880 provisions, although there are incentives offered for innovation parks 1078 01:28:11,679 --> 01:28:20,000 specifically. Um, commercial core, meaning non-residential and mixed use 1079 01:28:17,440 --> 01:28:26,400 projects specifically, no longer have uh equivalent relief as part of the new DC 1080 01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:30,320 bylaw. Um, and so there's two key gaps there, industrial and commercial core 1081 01:28:28,719 --> 01:28:33,360 development. Next slide, please. 1082 01:28:35,280 --> 01:28:41,679 So just looking at the housing exemptions in a little bit more detail, 1083 01:28:38,719 --> 01:28:47,120 we just wanted to sort of remind everyone about what is being provided in 1084 01:28:44,880 --> 01:28:51,920 the halffunded um proposed programs that have been 1085 01:28:49,040 --> 01:28:56,880 developed. Um so this the table on this slide really demonstrates why housing is 1086 01:28:53,679 --> 01:29:01,040 not part of um you know our review going forward. We're not considering any 1087 01:28:58,880 --> 01:29:07,679 additional exemptions related to housing in the um in a CIP amendment um because 1088 01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:12,880 affordable housing additional h residential units and rental housing 1089 01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:19,040 purpose-built rental housing um continue to benefit from DC provisions whether 1090 01:29:15,679 --> 01:29:23,840 it's exempt full exemptions or um discounts reductions. Um and then the 1091 01:29:22,159 --> 01:29:30,719 proposed half programs provide additional support on top of uh the DC 1092 01:29:27,520 --> 01:29:33,679 um provisions. Therefore, uh we're recommending there's no short-term 1093 01:29:32,159 --> 01:29:39,679 replacement incentives required for housing related incentives. Um and just 1094 01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:46,239 to note that the half funding currently extends to December 4th, 2028. So, um 1095 01:29:44,560 --> 01:29:52,480 just sort of in the short term, we're not not considering that for inclusion. 1096 01:29:49,520 --> 01:29:52,480 Next slide, please. 1097 01:29:53,332 --> 01:29:58,960 » [sighs and gasps] >> So potential gaps. So just um to sort of 1098 01:29:57,199 --> 01:30:03,840 summarize the key conclusions of our review that were provided in a bit more 1099 01:30:01,280 --> 01:30:07,040 detail in the uh touched memo as well. Um 1100 01:30:05,360 --> 01:30:12,960 one of the key gaps we note is industrial development outside of that 1101 01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:18,239 in uh occurring or potential to occur in innovation park. So the other existing 1102 01:30:16,000 --> 01:30:23,199 employment lands that exist within the town. um while we understand they may be 1103 01:30:21,679 --> 01:30:26,960 you know fairly built out there's opportunity for redevelopment 1104 01:30:25,280 --> 01:30:31,679 reinvestment um expansion and that type of thing um 1105 01:30:29,600 --> 01:30:37,199 as well as commercial core development being the second gap so both again both 1106 01:30:34,320 --> 01:30:42,080 loss review through the new CIP or the new DC bylaw that was put into place and 1107 01:30:39,679 --> 01:30:47,040 approved um and there's no equivalent support provided through um the 1108 01:30:44,880 --> 01:30:49,679 development charges act or or half funding which is housing focused 1109 01:30:49,008 --> 01:30:54,239 » [gasps] >> So the the review will really focus, you 1110 01:30:52,080 --> 01:30:59,840 know, less about housing, more about economic development downtown as well as 1111 01:30:56,719 --> 01:31:05,040 um in the employment areas. Um and future options that we're considering 1112 01:31:01,760 --> 01:31:09,840 are uh you know potentially to include a multiream 1113 01:31:06,560 --> 01:31:15,040 DC grant program that already exists in the CIP, but just sort of you know 1114 01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:21,840 fleshing that out a bit more potentially by sector or location oriented. Um we'll 1115 01:31:19,120 --> 01:31:27,360 also take a look at um whether there's any merits of um detail detailing a bit 1116 01:31:25,040 --> 01:31:33,360 more the tax increment equivalent grant that is also provided for within the 1117 01:31:29,679 --> 01:31:36,960 existing CIP. Um and having looked at what remains 1118 01:31:35,679 --> 01:31:42,400 covered elsewhere, the review really comes to down to those two areas that no 1119 01:31:39,440 --> 01:31:49,040 longer have um coverage that where council may wish to consider uh a CIP 1120 01:31:45,600 --> 01:31:52,679 response in that regard. Next slide, please. 1121 01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:59,520 So again, today's update is really intended to establish the direction uh 1122 01:31:56,880 --> 01:32:05,040 for the amendment process um based on council's feedback today. Our next step 1123 01:32:01,760 --> 01:32:09,600 will be to prepare the draft amendment uh for consideration and then bring 1124 01:32:06,639 --> 01:32:15,840 those um bring that forward through the statutory PL public meeting um process 1125 01:32:12,800 --> 01:32:19,840 in September. Um and at that point, it being a public meeting, um council will 1126 01:32:18,239 --> 01:32:24,400 have the opportunity to review the proposed programs 1127 01:32:22,000 --> 01:32:31,040 um their structure and any associated funding implications that may be um 1128 01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:36,400 required before making any decisions. Um so that concludes my presentation. Um 1129 01:32:34,320 --> 01:32:40,400 we'd be happy to answer any questions tonight. Thank you. Thank you. There is 1130 01:32:39,199 --> 01:32:43,440 a resolution that council receive the community improvement plan development 1131 01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:47,199 charges review update report for information is removed and seconded for 1132 01:32:45,040 --> 01:32:51,600 that moved by the deputy mayor seconded by councelor Mette. Discussion we'll 1133 01:32:50,159 --> 01:32:56,159 start with Halpin and then come to Grace. 1134 01:32:53,520 --> 01:33:00,239 » Thank you Marin through you. Um, just for the the general public in that, 1135 01:32:58,719 --> 01:33:04,239 could we define commercial, core, and non-residential and mixeduse 1136 01:33:01,679 --> 01:33:09,679 development? Would would that like be downtown stores or or what what exactly 1137 01:33:06,800 --> 01:33:14,400 would that involve the consultant? 1138 01:33:12,159 --> 01:33:20,719 » Yes, thank you through you, Mr. Mayor. Um, yes, commercial core. So, that's um 1139 01:33:18,000 --> 01:33:25,760 based on the uh official plan designation, but within that it really 1140 01:33:23,040 --> 01:33:31,120 focuses on commercial. So, I mean, you know, non-residential, it's ultimately 1141 01:33:27,760 --> 01:33:35,600 commercial. Um whether it's, you know, existing 1142 01:33:32,960 --> 01:33:41,520 um commercial there. There's, you know, new commercial sites that potentially 1143 01:33:37,520 --> 01:33:46,960 could be developed. Um it it's it's basically commercial is what what what 1144 01:33:44,000 --> 01:33:52,159 the um reference is there. The mixeduse reference would ultimately be commercial 1145 01:33:49,679 --> 01:33:56,480 at ground floor with residential above. Um, however, the incentives that we'd be 1146 01:33:54,880 --> 01:34:03,840 looking at would focus on the commercial pon component of that development. 1147 01:33:59,920 --> 01:34:08,639 » Yeah. So, if I could, uh, mayor, um, I do support DC breaks for this. I I think 1148 01:34:06,719 --> 01:34:13,520 it's important for us to support our downtowns and and to do anything we can 1149 01:34:10,800 --> 01:34:20,159 to make it easier for them to develop. But I but I do have a question. If a 1150 01:34:15,520 --> 01:34:25,440 vacant building is being redeveloped, um, do they have to pay any DC charges? 1151 01:34:23,360 --> 01:34:30,480 Like, let's say a a storefront that's been empty for several years or 1152 01:34:27,920 --> 01:34:36,480 something and now they want to redevelop it. Do things like that have to pay a DC 1153 01:34:33,760 --> 01:34:40,320 charge? >> The consultant? 1154 01:34:38,400 --> 01:34:48,480 » Yes. Thank you. Through you, Mr. Mayor. Um the the 1155 01:34:44,239 --> 01:34:52,800 current the new DC bylaw maintains um 1156 01:34:50,639 --> 01:34:56,239 the exemption that was in place previously for vacant buildings for 1157 01:34:54,560 --> 01:35:00,880 redevelopment. Um I I believe maybe someone from the 1158 01:34:59,520 --> 01:35:04,800 town could clarify what the language change was, but from what I understand 1159 01:35:02,400 --> 01:35:12,639 it, it's just sort of a little bit more um provided some additional uh structure 1160 01:35:08,159 --> 01:35:17,280 to what those requirements might be. >> I'll just clarify that DCS would be owed 1161 01:35:15,440 --> 01:35:22,239 on commercial development that represents additional square footage or 1162 01:35:20,080 --> 01:35:28,080 expansion. So it's only that component that would trigger DC charges. 1163 01:35:25,520 --> 01:35:33,040 the counselor. >> Uh, thank you. Oh, okay. Just I'm sorry, 1164 01:35:31,040 --> 01:35:39,520 one more question. For the vacant building, how long does a vacant 1165 01:35:34,960 --> 01:35:44,320 building have to be empty to qualify for for anything like that? 1166 01:35:42,400 --> 01:35:52,480 The treasur. So again, I'll just speak specifically 1167 01:35:47,679 --> 01:35:58,080 to when DC's are triggered. And a vacant building could be vacant for 1168 01:35:55,760 --> 01:36:05,040 I'm not sure that there's a time period on it. It would more have more to do 1169 01:36:00,639 --> 01:36:11,199 with if there's expanding footprint. >> Thank you. Okay, the deputy mayor. 1170 01:36:09,520 --> 01:36:13,920 » I thought councelor Grace was next. >> Oh, sorry, Council Grace. I have my back 1171 01:36:12,719 --> 01:36:15,600 turned to you and saw your hand. Council Green. 1172 01:36:14,159 --> 01:36:20,159 » It's okay. I've been out of the room for a while. 1173 01:36:17,040 --> 01:36:28,239 » Um just uh to go to the vacant properties question. Um and one of the 1174 01:36:24,719 --> 01:36:33,760 charts talks about um the offering incentives 1175 01:36:29,920 --> 01:36:40,239 for vacant building redevelopment. Um which I think is a great idea. 1176 01:36:36,960 --> 01:36:46,800 I'm and I know a number of residents are still are continue to be frustrated 1177 01:36:44,560 --> 01:36:56,400 by the fact that we have some vacant properties in our downtown area that 1178 01:36:51,440 --> 01:37:03,760 appear not to respond to incentives or anything. And I don't know if um what we 1179 01:37:00,639 --> 01:37:06,760 could do um to encourage 1180 01:37:06,800 --> 01:37:15,440 um the development of those properties or 1181 01:37:10,400 --> 01:37:20,159 the willingness of those owners to um to develop their properties. But that 1182 01:37:17,520 --> 01:37:28,000 that's something I'd like to have happen either in this or some other means. 1183 01:37:24,239 --> 01:37:34,159 Uh, you mentioned um, Lindsay that um, and I had a question in particular that 1184 01:37:30,480 --> 01:37:41,360 I submitted to staff about offering DC exemptions for properties in Innovation 1185 01:37:37,520 --> 01:37:47,119 Park. Um, and that we have a rubric that we use. Um, 1186 01:37:45,119 --> 01:37:53,760 I didn't see that specifically mentioned in the written report, but I know you've 1187 01:37:49,440 --> 01:38:00,320 addressed it in your comments here. Um that's something that you're continu 1188 01:37:55,520 --> 01:38:05,600 you're recommending that we continue >> the consultant. 1189 01:38:02,320 --> 01:38:10,159 » Yes, thank you. Um yes, that that is something that we will be taking into 1190 01:38:07,679 --> 01:38:16,800 consideration. The town has developed and approved um the 1191 01:38:13,760 --> 01:38:23,440 uh a scoring matrix for Innovation Park specifically. Um, so we can use that as 1192 01:38:19,840 --> 01:38:28,320 a basis um, going forward looking at potential for development charge um, 1193 01:38:26,239 --> 01:38:36,159 reductions and how those might apply to other employment lands within the town. 1194 01:38:31,840 --> 01:38:40,800 Um, so yeah, incorporating that and making it clear that those exist under 1195 01:38:38,080 --> 01:38:47,360 the existing DC um, or under the existing CIP, sorry, um, is something 1196 01:38:44,400 --> 01:38:51,520 that we can address. Grace 1197 01:38:48,239 --> 01:38:58,400 » and that would be based on this rubric of ultimately how much value we consider 1198 01:38:55,440 --> 01:39:06,239 that industrial development to be for the community right I mean could it 1199 01:39:01,280 --> 01:39:10,719 range from like a 25% reduction to a perhaps 100% reduction 1200 01:39:09,360 --> 01:39:16,000 » the consultant >> thank you Mr. Mayor um through you Mr. 1201 01:39:13,199 --> 01:39:20,639 Mary, yes, we're going to look at all of that. So, um yeah, the the scoring 1202 01:39:18,320 --> 01:39:25,360 that's in place at present is um you know, based on the the target sector and 1203 01:39:23,920 --> 01:39:31,520 the type of sector that the business is in, how many employees it brings in, um 1204 01:39:28,000 --> 01:39:36,000 you know, the construction costs, um sustainability considerations, all of 1205 01:39:33,360 --> 01:39:41,119 that. Um if the town wishes to, you know, maintain that type of scoring, 1206 01:39:38,320 --> 01:39:47,199 then uh we can incorporate it. um as well as look at um you know what what it 1207 01:39:44,639 --> 01:39:52,000 might mean for other other you know reinvestment insights and that type of 1208 01:39:48,960 --> 01:39:55,199 thing as well. >> Grace, 1209 01:39:53,199 --> 01:40:01,840 » thank you. Uh I have one more and that is um a question about the ARU does an 1210 01:39:59,760 --> 01:40:09,360 additional residential unit grant program. Um 1211 01:40:05,679 --> 01:40:15,520 when I sent this question um the response was my question was can we 1212 01:40:12,400 --> 01:40:22,400 include a design requirement in the housing accelerator funded CIP 1213 01:40:18,800 --> 01:40:27,600 inventives incentives. Um, the reason that I included that is because we have 1214 01:40:25,679 --> 01:40:35,280 had some um 4unit 1215 01:40:30,719 --> 01:40:39,760 residential buildings going up that we up until now because of provincial site 1216 01:40:37,840 --> 01:40:43,280 plan control um 1217 01:40:41,360 --> 01:40:49,920 regulations don't allow us to exercise any kind of 1218 01:40:45,360 --> 01:40:58,239 site plan control on units on on developments. that have uh 10 or fewer 1219 01:40:54,560 --> 01:41:03,119 uh residential dwellings within that. And as a result, we have ended up with a 1220 01:41:01,040 --> 01:41:07,840 couple of developments that essentially look like small 1221 01:41:05,119 --> 01:41:12,800 apartment buildings within a an established 1222 01:41:09,920 --> 01:41:20,000 uh residential area that they just don't fit. Um, so do is there a potential 1223 01:41:17,199 --> 01:41:26,560 would we have to get past a conflict with the provincial regulation or are we 1224 01:41:22,800 --> 01:41:33,360 able do we have the power within this um community improvement plan to be able 1225 01:41:29,920 --> 01:41:36,360 to exercise our our own design requirements. 1226 01:41:37,520 --> 01:41:48,400 » Thank you Mr. R. Um I I you had discussed this as well and about the 1227 01:41:44,320 --> 01:41:54,000 town approved um pre-approved designs for ARUS I believe you're referring to 1228 01:41:51,679 --> 01:42:00,000 uh whether adding that as a stipulation or a you know um 1229 01:41:57,280 --> 01:42:08,080 eligibility criteria as it were you know if your design is follows these you know 1230 01:42:03,760 --> 01:42:13,199 the town approved um designs then you would be elible eligible for CIP 1231 01:42:10,480 --> 01:42:18,000 funding. Um I'm not sure about the legislative 1232 01:42:15,360 --> 01:42:23,440 requirements. Maybe I could ask John to weigh in on that, but um I guess 1233 01:42:20,560 --> 01:42:29,040 including it as you know if they want the CIP funding from half for for that 1234 01:42:26,639 --> 01:42:36,800 type of unit, putting that stipulation would I guess, you know, would limit 1235 01:42:33,520 --> 01:42:40,320 them to have to uh include that design, right? 1236 01:42:37,760 --> 01:42:47,119 » Yeah. I can uh if it's helpful and I apologize for my uh situation. I'm sat 1237 01:42:43,040 --> 01:42:52,480 in a car um and uh but just just joining in online. So just to add to what 1238 01:42:50,400 --> 01:42:58,239 Lindsay has said, if I understand the the question correctly that can you put 1239 01:42:54,800 --> 01:43:02,560 in additional design criteria for ARUS to make sure it works well and in the 1240 01:43:00,080 --> 01:43:08,960 public interest. I think absolutely you can if you cast your mind back to the 1241 01:43:05,520 --> 01:43:14,000 half program funded CIP that we developed we were fairly 1242 01:43:12,080 --> 01:43:18,000 uh I say non-prescriptive I know you have the guidelines for you know sorry 1243 01:43:15,679 --> 01:43:21,040 the template designs but we were we tried to reduce the level of 1244 01:43:19,520 --> 01:43:27,199 prescription for further aspects such as universal 1245 01:43:23,360 --> 01:43:34,159 design for an for example because to do that you may end up creating further 1246 01:43:30,800 --> 01:43:39,119 limit MITs to take up of the ARU program and I recognize that those goals are 1247 01:43:36,159 --> 01:43:44,880 laudable themselves but our experience with CIPs is you can work with the 1248 01:43:42,000 --> 01:43:49,360 applicant to move it in the direction that you want. CIPs are quite flexible 1249 01:43:47,199 --> 01:43:55,920 in that way. I don't think you want to put in rigid rules about exactly those 1250 01:43:53,440 --> 01:44:00,480 things because it's going to it will have no doubt but to restrict the number 1251 01:43:57,760 --> 01:44:04,639 of uh applications that you get and at this point when you have the funding 1252 01:44:02,000 --> 01:44:09,760 ahead of you and only two years in which to spend it I think you know be be a 1253 01:44:08,320 --> 01:44:17,280 little bit less prescriptive but prepared to uh engage with applicants 1254 01:44:13,280 --> 01:44:21,119 using the the CIP as the uh as the tool. It's both a carrot and a stick in that 1255 01:44:19,119 --> 01:44:24,639 regard. So I I don't think it will be a problem. Certainly you can instruct 1256 01:44:22,960 --> 01:44:29,760 staff that they should look for those issues. But one of the key metrics is to 1257 01:44:27,440 --> 01:44:34,320 make sure you do get applications in. It's about creating supply and working 1258 01:44:32,080 --> 01:44:39,840 with the developers to meet the needs. And if those needs involve universal 1259 01:44:37,040 --> 01:44:44,719 design as an example and accessibility, then that is uh that's a goal that 1260 01:44:42,239 --> 01:44:50,960 should be pursued. >> Those are Greece. Um, thank you. I I 1261 01:44:48,080 --> 01:44:57,440 wasn't um suggesting that um 1262 01:44:54,239 --> 01:45:04,239 to for us to require that the applicants follow the exact 1263 01:45:01,280 --> 01:45:09,679 designs that have been created. But to be consistent 1264 01:45:06,880 --> 01:45:19,040 or complement um the character which we haven't fully 1265 01:45:14,159 --> 01:45:26,080 defined um in my opinion but um the general character of 1266 01:45:22,639 --> 01:45:31,840 what our town looks like um what's I think we have some guidelines on that 1267 01:45:27,920 --> 01:45:39,199 that are available and um I'm just thinking of you you know, permanent 1268 01:45:34,000 --> 01:45:46,480 constructions that now um are wildly out of place in some 1269 01:45:43,440 --> 01:45:50,800 um residential areas, unfortunately. They're there and there's nothing we can 1270 01:45:48,400 --> 01:45:58,000 do about it. Now, if there's some way we could um 1271 01:45:53,600 --> 01:46:05,360 as you say, carrot and stick somehow um um lead people to consider designs that 1272 01:46:02,320 --> 01:46:09,360 are are more complimentary to retaining the character of our community. Thank 1273 01:46:07,520 --> 01:46:16,000 you. >> Okay, the deputy mayor. 1274 01:46:12,960 --> 01:46:20,639 » Um thank you, Mr. Mayor. Um I wanted to just ask I know um somewhere in the 1275 01:46:18,880 --> 01:46:26,960 report it suggests that something's going to be before council um September 1276 01:46:23,280 --> 01:46:34,159 21st a public meeting surrounding a CIP review. Couple questions. Um is the 1277 01:46:30,239 --> 01:46:39,679 focus of the re review um on what's occurred because the report suggests 1278 01:46:37,280 --> 01:46:46,159 that there's been no take up of CIP programs in recent years. So um is the 1279 01:46:42,400 --> 01:46:53,199 the focus about that or is about is it about you know what we're expecting in 1280 01:46:48,239 --> 01:46:59,679 the future? Um but beyond that I'm just the part that's about um the commercial 1281 01:46:57,040 --> 01:47:05,280 core. You know we have a we've deferred um a discussion about the CPPS which is 1282 01:47:02,080 --> 01:47:09,840 focused on the commercial core um areas of of both Port Agen and Southampton the 1283 01:47:07,679 --> 01:47:18,880 former towns of Southampton and Port Agen. I just um it's very confusing um I 1284 01:47:14,560 --> 01:47:25,679 think that um there's this overlap always um coming into play and 1285 01:47:23,199 --> 01:47:30,960 ultimately you know have we realized anything have we got any affordable 1286 01:47:27,840 --> 01:47:35,920 housing have we infilled any vacant lots have we you know infilled um someplace 1287 01:47:33,679 --> 01:47:41,040 with with a little more density I my reading of of what was before us tonight 1288 01:47:38,639 --> 01:47:46,639 would say that there's been no take up um what is the justific and I understand 1289 01:47:44,239 --> 01:47:51,840 you know the funding element but why are we even continuing with this if if in 1290 01:47:49,520 --> 01:47:57,280 the two years it's kind of been around because I think it's been two years 1291 01:47:54,000 --> 01:48:02,080 there's been no uptake um what are what are we going to see on the 21st that 1292 01:48:00,239 --> 01:48:08,199 makes this an important thing to keep talking about and spending money on 1293 01:48:04,960 --> 01:48:08,199 » the director 1294 01:48:10,639 --> 01:48:16,880 Thanks, Mayor. I think at this point in terms of having listened to the 1295 01:48:14,560 --> 01:48:23,119 conversation, um there's a lot of things here being tabled uh and good 1296 01:48:18,880 --> 01:48:28,000 conversation. Um and at this point, my suggestion might be in terms of that we 1297 01:48:25,280 --> 01:48:34,320 go back and re revisit the scope of the work uh that uh was put forward. Um, 1298 01:48:32,320 --> 01:48:38,400 we're hearing a lot of good conversation in in that and I think we're getting 1299 01:48:36,560 --> 01:48:42,239 into a lot of different areas and I would suggest, you know, maybe we need 1300 01:48:39,760 --> 01:48:45,920 to go back and look at that direction that council provided. Unfortunately, I 1301 01:48:44,159 --> 01:48:50,159 don't have it right here in front of me. Um, but let's go back and look at the 1302 01:48:47,679 --> 01:48:56,480 scope of that work. >> The CEO has her hand up. The CEO, 1303 01:48:54,239 --> 01:48:59,920 » thank you. Sorry. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I just wanted to draw council's 1304 01:48:58,080 --> 01:49:03,520 attention to the staff report that accompanied tonight's presentation 1305 01:49:01,679 --> 01:49:09,119 because it does outline the scope of work for council on this. So if council 1306 01:49:06,960 --> 01:49:15,760 will remember the community improvement plan that came forward in May was the 1307 01:49:12,000 --> 01:49:20,320 supplementary housing initiatives CIP. So again, the focus of that work is to 1308 01:49:18,159 --> 01:49:25,679 enable the housing accelerator fund grants to get out the door uh in order 1309 01:49:23,280 --> 01:49:31,280 to support all the supplementary housing pieces that were targeting to spend the 1310 01:49:28,480 --> 01:49:36,560 half-funding grant on council at that meeting also heard about the DC bylaw 1311 01:49:34,639 --> 01:49:40,480 update. And so there was a the recommendation that was passed that 1312 01:49:38,159 --> 01:49:44,480 night is included in the staff report that council removed all the 1313 01:49:41,920 --> 01:49:48,800 discretionary exemptions from the DC charges bylaw and ask staff to 1314 01:49:47,119 --> 01:49:54,560 incorporate those discretionary exemptions into the CIP if it was 1315 01:49:51,679 --> 01:50:00,080 possible. So, I just want to table with council and support what the director 1316 01:49:57,760 --> 01:50:04,480 was saying that that's the scope of work that we're focused on right now and we 1317 01:50:02,960 --> 01:50:08,800 want to target bringing those supplementary housing initiatives back 1318 01:50:06,400 --> 01:50:13,679 to council in a timely way. So, that's why we're talking about September and 1319 01:50:11,280 --> 01:50:18,080 that we would look at where the DC exemption list could be included where 1320 01:50:16,159 --> 01:50:22,000 it makes sense. So, I hope that provides a little bit of clarity about what we're 1321 01:50:19,760 --> 01:50:26,480 trying to do. I just want to make sure we're not going down different areas 1322 01:50:24,239 --> 01:50:31,040 related to community improvement plans. We're really targeted on that 1323 01:50:28,400 --> 01:50:35,679 supplementary housing piece and then where any discretionary exemptions can 1324 01:50:33,280 --> 01:50:38,639 fit into that amendment. I 1325 01:50:35,840 --> 01:50:41,760 » think the discussion that council had at that time was when we were discussing 1326 01:50:40,480 --> 01:50:44,800 removing all the discretionary exemptions from the development charges 1327 01:50:43,440 --> 01:50:50,639 bylaw, we wanted to make sure that nothing important was missed. uh that we 1328 01:50:47,280 --> 01:50:54,560 weren't removing something that wasn't already covered by provincial 1329 01:50:52,480 --> 01:50:59,840 legislation that we also valued. Right? So I think the purpose of this report is 1330 01:50:57,199 --> 01:51:05,440 to understand that question, right? to look at what what's what's picked up by 1331 01:51:03,440 --> 01:51:09,679 provincial legislation and then what's left over and then council can make the 1332 01:51:07,920 --> 01:51:14,000 decision after that about whether we think those items which are left over 1333 01:51:11,520 --> 01:51:18,639 which appear to be on the question of industrial um exemptions and on core 1334 01:51:17,280 --> 01:51:22,800 commercial exemptions from my reading that's about all that those are the 1335 01:51:20,400 --> 01:51:26,239 pieces that are left unressed um and I guess council then can have the 1336 01:51:24,719 --> 01:51:30,880 discussion do we consider those important enough 1337 01:51:29,040 --> 01:51:37,040 that we want to incorporate them into a CIP to carry them on outside of the 1338 01:51:34,800 --> 01:51:42,320 development charges bylaw where they used to be picked up. So to me that's 1339 01:51:40,000 --> 01:51:48,480 that's what we're talking about here. Is that does that conform with what staff's 1340 01:51:45,920 --> 01:51:54,320 uh view of this discussion is just so that we're on the same page? 1341 01:51:50,960 --> 01:51:57,520 Yes. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, um further discussion I don't know deputy mayor you 1342 01:51:55,840 --> 01:52:02,560 were were you finished? Okay. Uh, councelor Help and then 1343 01:52:00,080 --> 01:52:06,080 » thank you mayor and through you. One one cautionary 1344 01:52:04,239 --> 01:52:08,960 note with this like some of the stuff isn't being taken up so it doesn't seem 1345 01:52:07,599 --> 01:52:15,440 like it's going to cost us a lot of money but we have foregone a lot of 1346 01:52:10,719 --> 01:52:20,880 revenue with um uh with our DCs for purpose-built housing and and it worked. 1347 01:52:18,080 --> 01:52:26,080 It we we we doubled our supply. It wasn't this council. It was the previous 1348 01:52:22,719 --> 01:52:32,000 council. They doubled the supply of rental units, but we we sure have 1349 01:52:28,560 --> 01:52:37,679 foregone a lot of DC charges over the 3 million worth over the last 1350 01:52:34,960 --> 01:52:41,679 four or so years. So that that's my one cautionary thing. Yet at the same time, 1351 01:52:39,599 --> 01:52:47,440 I do want to support our downtowns as much as we can. 1352 01:52:43,840 --> 01:52:50,719 » Thank you. Further comments? Yeah, I think and when we discussed it, 1353 01:52:49,440 --> 01:52:55,280 when we were discussing the development charges bylaw and I I proposed a notion 1354 01:52:53,199 --> 01:53:00,480 of wiping all these discretionary exemptions out of the bylaw and 1355 01:52:56,960 --> 01:53:04,960 considering them as part of a CIP, my feeling at that time was that what was 1356 01:53:02,639 --> 01:53:11,040 left wouldn't be all that significant. And I think that that's the case still. 1357 01:53:07,679 --> 01:53:15,760 I think we need to clarify, make sure that we are covering off the work we're 1358 01:53:14,080 --> 01:53:22,000 trying to do in places like Innovation Park. make sure that that we can 1359 01:53:19,040 --> 01:53:25,679 adequately implement DC relief in accordance with the rubric that 1360 01:53:23,280 --> 01:53:28,800 councelor Grace laid out was discussing. Um we need to be able to continue to do 1361 01:53:27,199 --> 01:53:31,840 that. So we have to have that we have to have the policy framework in place 1362 01:53:30,239 --> 01:53:38,480 either through a CIP or some other policy to be able to continue with that. 1363 01:53:34,159 --> 01:53:43,440 That's critical I think. Um and you know the downtown core commercial program uh 1364 01:53:42,080 --> 01:53:47,119 could be important but I would be interested to understand a little more 1365 01:53:45,280 --> 01:53:50,719 clearly what exactly we were trying to achieve in the core commercial areas 1366 01:53:49,360 --> 01:53:55,360 because the core commercial areas are essentially developed for the most part. 1367 01:53:53,520 --> 01:54:01,840 Right? So what are we trying to encourage um in the core commercial 1368 01:53:58,400 --> 01:54:06,560 areas? I understand this notion of of um moving vacant 1369 01:54:04,080 --> 01:54:09,440 um commercial spaces out of vacancy into some kind of occupancy, but we've tried 1370 01:54:07,840 --> 01:54:13,599 lots of things to incentivize that in the past without much success because in 1371 01:54:11,360 --> 01:54:16,880 the because in the final analysis, it's none of these charges are the deciding 1372 01:54:15,199 --> 01:54:21,920 factor in that. The deciding factor is some private interest. the inability to 1373 01:54:18,960 --> 01:54:25,520 lease or the unwillingness to lease and all of that comes down to private 1374 01:54:23,440 --> 01:54:30,080 financial considerations and generally isn't driven by development charges or 1375 01:54:28,400 --> 01:54:32,400 taxation, right? Like that's not the that's not what an owner is thinking 1376 01:54:31,199 --> 01:54:37,280 about when they're deciding how to use that property, right? Uh so so we have 1377 01:54:35,760 --> 01:54:42,159 to be realistic about how much we can influence any that kind of decision with 1378 01:54:39,920 --> 01:54:47,440 this kind of move. I think our we have a much more effect as councelor Halpin 1379 01:54:43,760 --> 01:54:52,800 pointed out uh in the housing realm because the decision-m around building 1380 01:54:50,239 --> 01:54:57,679 housing is much is driven to a much greater extent by um those DC charges 1381 01:54:55,679 --> 01:55:05,440 which can amount to a fair bit of money. So anyway, um I guess all of that to say 1382 01:55:01,119 --> 01:55:10,159 is I'm not uh I'm kind of satisfied with where we are at the moment. Uh apart 1383 01:55:08,000 --> 01:55:14,960 from making sure that we have the uh exemptions in place or the capacity to 1384 01:55:12,400 --> 01:55:18,080 implement a program to incentivize industrial development in places like 1385 01:55:16,480 --> 01:55:22,800 Innovation Park, I think that's a piece we need to have. So we should pursue 1386 01:55:19,920 --> 01:55:29,040 that. Um but that's the that's really all that's left from my perspective of 1387 01:55:24,880 --> 01:55:33,760 of great importance. Um at this point, councelor Helvin, 1388 01:55:31,119 --> 01:55:38,560 » thank you Mayor and through you. This Spruce the Bruce offers incentives for 1389 01:55:36,880 --> 01:55:43,599 our commercial core as well, right through the the county. There's a pro uh 1390 01:55:40,800 --> 01:55:48,800 program where uh commercial core stores and that can apply for funding and 1391 01:55:46,400 --> 01:55:51,520 grants for sprucing up their storefronts. Is that correct? 1392 01:55:50,400 --> 01:55:55,840 » That's right. But it's important to remember that the CIP is what makes that 1393 01:55:53,599 --> 01:56:00,639 program possible, right? You can't municipalities can't bonus private 1394 01:55:58,639 --> 01:56:05,040 interests without a mechanism like a community improvement plan to make it 1395 01:56:02,960 --> 01:56:11,280 possible. So see so spruce the Bruce rests on the municipality having a 1396 01:56:08,560 --> 01:56:15,840 community improvement plan to implement it. Yeah, councelor Helvin. 1397 01:56:14,080 --> 01:56:20,239 » So thank you mayor. So does that mean like if we don't have a CIP for uh 1398 01:56:18,639 --> 01:56:25,599 community improvement plan for downtown we can no longer take part of uh in 1399 01:56:22,480 --> 01:56:28,719 spruce the Bruce as well? Well, that's a good point. I guess if it 1400 01:56:27,119 --> 01:56:34,239 were targeted at the downtown, we would have to have a program in the CIP that 1401 01:56:30,800 --> 01:56:38,320 would um cover off the incentives. I can turn that over to the uh consultant. 1402 01:56:36,639 --> 01:56:44,119 They'll be greater experts on that than me. Uh what's say you to that? 1403 01:56:47,119 --> 01:56:54,960 Sorry. Um I was on mute. I'll I'll answer that through your worship. Yes, 1404 01:56:52,000 --> 01:56:59,119 exactly. You you obviously count counties are upper tier authorities. 1405 01:56:57,360 --> 01:57:03,119 They are not permitted to undertake community improvement plans. What they 1406 01:57:00,719 --> 01:57:10,080 can do and what the county does is have a stated policy of matching essentially 1407 01:57:06,719 --> 01:57:16,400 the funding that is in lower tier CIPs and that's where the spruce spruce 1408 01:57:13,440 --> 01:57:19,599 campaign is targeted. So to the extent you want to use those funds, you have to 1409 01:57:18,080 --> 01:57:24,719 have a program that allows the municipality to essentially work with 1410 01:57:22,080 --> 01:57:29,679 the upper tier offer of funding. So yes, you need to keep a program in place. 1411 01:57:27,840 --> 01:57:32,800 » Yeah, it's a good point well made counselor help and that's important 1412 01:57:30,960 --> 01:57:37,040 thing for us to consider. We want obviously our residents, our business 1413 01:57:34,800 --> 01:57:41,360 owners build access to Bruce. So staff should pay careful attention to make 1414 01:57:38,480 --> 01:57:45,199 sure that our CIP enables us to access all those programs. I would note too 1415 01:57:43,920 --> 01:57:50,000 though I think the province just changed the rules around upper tier CIPs. I 1416 01:57:47,520 --> 01:57:56,320 think the upper the upper tier can now uh implement a CIP. 1417 01:57:54,080 --> 01:58:00,639 Um hard to keep up with all the provinces 1418 01:57:57,760 --> 01:58:06,560 changes. So are there further are there further uh discussions on this? If not 1419 01:58:04,880 --> 01:58:12,960 uh it's been moved and seconded. It's just to receive for information. Uh all 1420 01:58:09,599 --> 01:58:16,320 in favor that is carried. Okay, so now we're on to 7.3 comments on proposed 1421 01:58:14,960 --> 01:58:20,960 governance regulations for regional conservation authorities and the manager 1422 01:58:17,920 --> 01:58:24,400 of planning and development. >> Thank you and through you Mur Sharbono. 1423 01:58:23,040 --> 01:58:28,080 The Ministry of the Environment, Conservation and Parks is seeking 1424 01:58:26,159 --> 01:58:31,599 feedback on proposed regulations under the Conservation Authorities Act that 1425 01:58:29,840 --> 01:58:35,760 would establish governance regul requirements for Ontario's future 1426 01:58:33,920 --> 01:58:40,239 regional conservation authorities and the Ontario Provincial Conservation 1427 01:58:37,679 --> 01:58:44,960 Agency. The proposed Lake Hiron Conservation Authority would encompass a 1428 01:58:42,639 --> 01:58:47,920 significantly larger geographic area than the current Saging Valley 1429 01:58:46,320 --> 01:58:52,560 Conservation Authority, including the town of Sagin Shores and all of Bruce 1430 01:58:50,080 --> 01:58:56,000 County. Under the proposed regulations, Bruce County would appoint one member to 1431 01:58:54,560 --> 01:58:59,840 the proposed Lake Hiron regional conservation authority board and Sagin 1432 01:58:58,159 --> 01:59:04,400 Shores would no longer have direct representation. The staff report in 1433 01:59:02,560 --> 01:59:08,320 front of you is broken down into the themes of representation and 1434 01:59:06,159 --> 01:59:12,639 appointments, alternative governments arrang governance arrangements, 1435 01:59:10,400 --> 01:59:16,719 maintaining local municipal input, and the Ontario Provincial Conservation 1436 01:59:14,320 --> 01:59:20,960 Authority Board eligibility. Within each theme, an analysis of the 1437 01:59:18,639 --> 01:59:25,040 proposed change is outlined along with a context specific to Sagging Shores. A 1438 01:59:23,440 --> 01:59:28,960 number of comments to be forwarded to the province through the Environmental 1439 01:59:26,880 --> 01:59:32,000 Registry of Ontario are included in the report and I'm happy to take any 1440 01:59:30,639 --> 01:59:34,880 questions from council. >> Thank you. The resolution is the council 1441 01:59:33,440 --> 01:59:37,440 endorse the comments in this report directing staff to forward them to the 1442 01:59:36,400 --> 01:59:40,719 province through the environmental registry of Ontario and that council 1443 01:59:39,040 --> 01:59:43,920 direct staff to provide a copy to the Sagi Valley Conservation Authority, 1444 01:59:42,320 --> 01:59:47,199 Bruce County Council and the lower tier municipalities within Bruce County for 1445 01:59:45,840 --> 01:59:53,440 consideration. Is there mover and secondary? Council me councelor Halpen. 1446 01:59:50,080 --> 01:59:58,080 Uh discussion council me. Yes, thank you Mr. Mayor and through 1447 01:59:54,639 --> 02:00:02,320 you. Um the the report that came out from the provincial government on the 1448 02:00:00,639 --> 02:00:06,560 structure of the new conservation authority, the regional conservation 1449 02:00:04,000 --> 02:00:12,400 authorities is is really manifesting exactly what we were afraid was going to 1450 02:00:09,199 --> 02:00:18,800 happen is that these larger conservation authorities by population such as in our 1451 02:00:14,800 --> 02:00:26,159 case York region and like Simco region uh are just going to um dominate the the 1452 02:00:23,599 --> 02:00:31,280 boards the conservation authority authority boards and uh like I says we 1453 02:00:29,040 --> 02:00:36,239 have we'll have one representative for Bruce County and not only will we only 1454 02:00:34,080 --> 02:00:41,840 have one but it stipulates that that one representative cannot be a former member 1455 02:00:40,000 --> 02:00:45,360 of the conservation authority so they don't they want to have minimal 1456 02:00:43,520 --> 02:00:49,760 representation and they want to make sure that that representation has no 1457 02:00:48,000 --> 02:00:55,119 previous knowledge of how conservation authorities work. So they want a green 1458 02:00:52,239 --> 02:01:00,560 horn in there that they can manipulate. And uh and then it it goes nowhere to 1459 02:00:57,760 --> 02:01:04,719 address the the assets that the different conservation authorities have. 1460 02:01:02,159 --> 02:01:10,719 Like So Valley Conservation Authority has significant assets, not just liquid 1461 02:01:07,679 --> 02:01:15,440 assets, but land assets. They own thousands of acres of of land. 1462 02:01:12,719 --> 02:01:19,119 Conservation parks, Sogging Bluffs Conservation, Dairy Dale Conservation. 1463 02:01:16,960 --> 02:01:22,800 There's lots of parks and and things that they manage that they're bringing 1464 02:01:20,320 --> 02:01:29,599 to the table and they'll have one vote as to how those assets get consolidated 1465 02:01:25,920 --> 02:01:35,360 or amalgamated or liquidated or however that it goes. Our our citizens of Bur 1466 02:01:32,639 --> 02:01:39,679 County are going to be very poorly represented and that goes for not just 1467 02:01:37,280 --> 02:01:43,040 Bruce County but all of the great county and Hiron County that are currently 1468 02:01:41,760 --> 02:01:48,960 members of the Sagine Valley Conservation Board. Um, this is, like I 1469 02:01:46,480 --> 02:01:52,639 said, it's just coming true, but we were totally afraid what was going to happen. 1470 02:01:50,560 --> 02:01:56,400 And, uh, [sighs and gasps] and as was just recently pointed out by 1471 02:01:54,880 --> 02:02:01,119 the mayor, the changes are coming so fast from this government is hard to 1472 02:01:57,920 --> 02:02:06,560 keep up. And this is just, uh, just one more heavy-handed 1473 02:02:02,800 --> 02:02:10,320 uh, in my opinion to, you know, they they promised they were going to reduce 1474 02:02:08,000 --> 02:02:13,920 red tape for developers. Well, this is taken out a whole level of scrutiny that 1475 02:02:12,239 --> 02:02:18,000 they're going to have to go through. So, it's really a shame. And so, I endorse 1476 02:02:15,760 --> 02:02:21,360 the comments from the town. Uh, the conservation authority has their own 1477 02:02:20,000 --> 02:02:26,239 sets of comments that they're feeding back on this. And, uh, I believe that, 1478 02:02:24,560 --> 02:02:29,840 uh, everybody should read those, too. So, I'll leave it at that. Thanks. 1479 02:02:27,840 --> 02:02:34,960 » I just wanted to clarify, um, your one comment, um, with respect to current or 1480 02:02:33,119 --> 02:02:39,360 former authority members being appointed. That's that's to the Ontario 1481 02:02:37,199 --> 02:02:43,520 Provincial Conservation Agency board, not to not to the Regional Conservation 1482 02:02:41,520 --> 02:02:46,320 Authority. Right. So because what the government's trying to do there is 1483 02:02:44,560 --> 02:02:50,639 create a regulator. So they don't want to appoint a member of a current 1484 02:02:48,239 --> 02:02:55,360 conservation authority to oversee the conservation authorities. That's so 1485 02:02:52,560 --> 02:02:59,520 that's just for clarity there. Uh further comments from the members. 1486 02:02:57,360 --> 02:03:04,800 Councelor Halpin. >> Uh thank you mayor. um my colleague 1487 02:03:02,719 --> 02:03:10,320 councelor Matt um expressed everything well and we're 1488 02:03:08,000 --> 02:03:16,880 both on the Songing Valley Conservation Authority together and 1489 02:03:13,760 --> 02:03:21,119 it it's leaving us with no seat at the table I feel like and the thing is is 1490 02:03:19,520 --> 02:03:26,639 we're still going to be paying for this right like I mean we're going to be 1491 02:03:23,360 --> 02:03:30,560 paying and supporting this without very much representation on the board and if 1492 02:03:28,880 --> 02:03:36,480 you look at the size of the sogging Valley conservation the Sen Valley 1493 02:03:32,480 --> 02:03:40,000 watershed how big that whed is and I guess it goes through Gray County a 1494 02:03:38,080 --> 02:03:48,560 little bit so that what's that going to be maybe maybe two people 1495 02:03:44,159 --> 02:03:54,639 representing that and I the Ford government has done some good things but 1496 02:03:51,360 --> 02:03:59,119 it is consistently consolidating power making appointments and eroding the 1497 02:03:56,880 --> 02:04:03,119 representation of smaller and rural municipalities. 1498 02:04:01,280 --> 02:04:07,119 and I don't know what we can do about it, 1499 02:04:04,800 --> 02:04:11,280 but that is my comments and it's a really good report and they're excellent 1500 02:04:09,119 --> 02:04:13,840 comments and I fully endorse all your comments. 1501 02:04:12,480 --> 02:04:18,800 » Thank you for the comments. Councelor Grace, 1502 02:04:16,320 --> 02:04:24,800 » thank you Mr. Mayor. Um, I also had a question for Candace Counselor Halp and 1503 02:04:21,440 --> 02:04:28,800 about costs and what our financial contribution 1504 02:04:26,480 --> 02:04:35,440 may be because we do make a significant financial contribution now, but we don't 1505 02:04:31,599 --> 02:04:41,679 know that information of course. Um the yeah the the 21 reps total for the 1506 02:04:40,159 --> 02:04:47,599 regional um authority. Gray County gets two. 1507 02:04:45,440 --> 02:04:53,440 Bruce County, Hiron County, Duffren and Wellington, and several other 1508 02:04:49,520 --> 02:04:58,239 municipalities each get one. Uh so as you're you're right, our eight 1509 02:04:54,880 --> 02:05:03,199 municipalities within Bruce County um not not all eight would be part of this. 1510 02:05:00,560 --> 02:05:09,520 Uh no, I guess they would. Yeah. So, eight municipalities within the county 1511 02:05:05,440 --> 02:05:14,000 end up getting one representative. Um, now the thing that I was when I was 1512 02:05:11,760 --> 02:05:19,199 reading this, I was thinking, okay, that's the way we do our representation 1513 02:05:16,239 --> 02:05:22,960 now is representation by population. So, on the Sin Valley Conservation 1514 02:05:21,040 --> 02:05:29,760 Authority, um, Sagin Shores gets two, Conarten gets 1515 02:05:26,480 --> 02:05:36,800 two, does handover get two? Um just just the two of us just 1516 02:05:32,560 --> 02:05:42,320 concarden and sagggin shores west gray. Yes. But 1517 02:05:39,599 --> 02:05:48,560 and I was first I was thinking well you know we are objecting we like it now 1518 02:05:46,880 --> 02:05:58,800 because we get two represented representatives but the effect is so 1519 02:05:54,000 --> 02:06:07,199 huge. I mean the devast devastation to our representative representative level 1520 02:06:02,000 --> 02:06:10,560 is so large that um it is a different I don't know whether they just did this 1521 02:06:08,880 --> 02:06:18,080 because they thought oh that's the way that it's been done um or whether 1522 02:06:13,520 --> 02:06:24,560 there's something more some other um motive behind whether this is just 1523 02:06:21,760 --> 02:06:32,239 laziness of how to organize this it's easy way out or whether uh so I'm 1524 02:06:27,599 --> 02:06:37,760 hopeful maybe that if someone is considering this and if we have strong 1525 02:06:35,467 --> 02:06:42,480 [snorts] enough advocates that perhaps they may consider other factors than 1526 02:06:40,000 --> 02:06:47,840 just simply representation by population. 1527 02:06:44,719 --> 02:06:52,400 » Thank you councelor Dinsky. >> Thank you Mr. Mayor. And through you one 1528 02:06:50,400 --> 02:06:59,280 word sort of sums it up. It's outrageous. It's absolutely outrageous. 1529 02:06:56,159 --> 02:07:05,360 Um, considering the work that's been done by the Sin Valley Conservation 1530 02:07:01,679 --> 02:07:10,560 Authority, as Councelor May said, we knew there was a hint that this was 1531 02:07:07,679 --> 02:07:16,639 coming and sure enough, it's before us. Hopefully, we can change things uh 1532 02:07:13,280 --> 02:07:22,960 beforehand. May I suggest whoever we send this to that we send it to Lisa 1533 02:07:19,360 --> 02:07:27,920 Thompson as well and rattle her cage so she knows what we are dealing with. She 1534 02:07:25,599 --> 02:07:32,960 probably does, but it wouldn't hurt to remind her again. Thank you. 1535 02:07:31,360 --> 02:07:36,280 » Yep, we certainly can do that. The deputy mayor, 1536 02:07:36,880 --> 02:07:42,560 » I agree with everything that's been said. It's it's really interesting when 1537 02:07:40,320 --> 02:07:47,440 you look at the charts, too. Um, you know, Gray County was mentioned. Gray 1538 02:07:44,239 --> 02:07:52,079 County of course in the in the grouping with us um has two representatives, but 1539 02:07:50,719 --> 02:07:57,840 you know, just if you look at another region, the Eastern Lake Erie regional 1540 02:07:54,400 --> 02:08:03,360 CA Gray County um in this one, their population within that regulated area is 1541 02:08:01,679 --> 02:08:09,920 1,09. They get one one representative there. 1542 02:08:06,320 --> 02:08:17,199 Um it's it's like the the it makes no sense when you you really look at it in 1543 02:08:12,239 --> 02:08:23,199 terms of um how it how it it just looks it's not sensical at all. It's 1544 02:08:19,280 --> 02:08:29,760 nonsensical anyway. But um so thank you Candace for the report. It's um good to 1545 02:08:27,199 --> 02:08:34,159 send something but um I think we we all should 1546 02:08:31,599 --> 02:08:39,760 send more if or get other people to send comments as well. 1547 02:08:36,159 --> 02:08:44,639 Thank you. Further comments. I u met at Amal with the minister of natural 1548 02:08:41,280 --> 02:08:51,280 resources uh on this issue on behalf of the county of Bruce. uh Bruce County uh 1549 02:08:48,159 --> 02:08:58,480 took the position that the um regional conservation authority should separate 1550 02:08:54,480 --> 02:09:04,079 um uh essentially be divided in two to have uh the Simco region um separated 1551 02:09:02,159 --> 02:09:08,800 from the smaller rural because it's really having Simco having Barry and 1552 02:09:06,480 --> 02:09:14,960 Simco mixed in with us which is really what drowns out that rural um voice in 1553 02:09:13,119 --> 02:09:18,239 our area. I mean it's it's got this huge urban population where although we are 1554 02:09:16,800 --> 02:09:24,079 fast growing, we're not fast growing like Simco is fast growing. Uh and so um 1555 02:09:22,400 --> 02:09:28,639 you know most of the attention and most of the resources we felt would be 1556 02:09:25,520 --> 02:09:34,239 focused on Simco rather than on Bruce and Gray and the uh the watersheds 1557 02:09:31,199 --> 02:09:39,119 within our jurisdictions. Um so we made that suggestion to uh directly to the 1558 02:09:37,520 --> 02:09:43,679 minister and made the point I made the point to him. I led the delegation and 1559 02:09:40,639 --> 02:09:48,880 made the point to him that um you know it would uh you know if the government 1560 02:09:46,159 --> 02:09:54,480 values rural voices as they say they do then then um this is not a good 1561 02:09:51,679 --> 02:09:58,719 configuration for this uh for this new authority. I can tell you based on that 1562 02:09:56,560 --> 02:10:04,719 conversation there is no in there is there will be no uh uptake on any 1563 02:10:01,920 --> 02:10:10,400 suggestion uh that these boundaries should be adjusted um whatsoever. So I 1564 02:10:08,400 --> 02:10:15,920 mean the government's committed and that's I mean I heard that directly from 1565 02:10:12,000 --> 02:10:23,440 the minister. Uh so uh so this is how uh they're going to roll this out. Um 1566 02:10:19,440 --> 02:10:27,280 and I think this representation model is how it's going to be. um which is 1567 02:10:26,000 --> 02:10:31,679 unfortunate for the reasons everybody has said. I for one I believe that 1568 02:10:30,000 --> 02:10:35,760 conservation authorities are in need of reform. Um and I think there are 1569 02:10:34,719 --> 02:10:40,320 problems with the conservation authorities. I do like the notion of a 1570 02:10:37,679 --> 02:10:43,760 provincial regul provincial regulator to enforce consistency across the 1571 02:10:42,239 --> 02:10:49,520 conservation authorities because I find they are very inconsistent and I hear 1572 02:10:45,920 --> 02:10:54,880 that all the time. Um so reform is necessary. Sadly, 1573 02:10:51,679 --> 02:10:59,840 I don't see how this approach achieves the reform we need. I don't I don't 1574 02:10:57,040 --> 02:11:03,599 really understand how it the outcome will be better. What do we want? We we 1575 02:11:02,079 --> 02:11:07,440 want an outcome that's better for people who are trying to do things in our 1576 02:11:05,119 --> 02:11:11,520 watersheds, for our property owners, uh for people who are trying to build 1577 02:11:09,920 --> 02:11:15,280 affordable housing, people who are trying to make life, you know, do 1578 02:11:13,520 --> 02:11:20,000 something to make their own lives, make their own property better. um and to do 1579 02:11:18,000 --> 02:11:24,159 it in a way that that doesn't threaten the watershed or or get them too close 1580 02:11:22,400 --> 02:11:27,920 to a flooding condition, all those things. We want that to work better and 1581 02:11:26,079 --> 02:11:32,960 I don't exactly see understand how these changes do that. Um and also I worry 1582 02:11:31,199 --> 02:11:38,560 more than the representation piece. I worry that what will happen is um we'll 1583 02:11:36,400 --> 02:11:43,040 see money the money now that the county of Bruce will be paying going into this 1584 02:11:41,440 --> 02:11:50,320 larger regional authority and heading to Simco and that the focus will be in 1585 02:11:45,440 --> 02:11:54,560 Simco uh and not on investments here in our conservation areas in all those 1586 02:11:53,040 --> 02:12:00,239 assets council might just mentioned that the conservation authority owns and in 1587 02:11:56,800 --> 02:12:03,840 better services to people on the ground in our communities which is what we 1588 02:12:01,760 --> 02:12:08,639 want. though I guess the proof will be in the pudding. But I will report to you 1589 02:12:05,360 --> 02:12:12,880 that there is I receive I was it was not just a sense it was explicit that this 1590 02:12:11,280 --> 02:12:18,000 isn't going to change. Not to say we shouldn't make the point we should but 1591 02:12:14,880 --> 02:12:23,599 uh that was u the message that I received loud and clear. 1592 02:12:20,800 --> 02:12:27,040 All right. If there's nothing further uh you've heard the recommendation. It's 1593 02:12:24,800 --> 02:12:33,679 been moved and seconded. So all in favor that is carried. Okay. So, now we're on 1594 02:12:30,560 --> 02:12:37,760 to the consent agenda. I guess we're How much longer will we be 1595 02:12:36,560 --> 02:12:44,280 going on here? Maybe a little while longer. Why don't we take Let's take a 1596 02:12:39,360 --> 02:12:44,280 break here. We'll break until uh 8:50. 1597 02:22:24,800 --> 02:22:28,840 Okay, guys. Let's do it. 1598 02:23:11,840 --> 02:23:20,479 Okay. So, we are now on to the consent agenda. Only one item there. Uh there's 1599 02:23:18,080 --> 02:23:24,080 a resolution that item 10.1 be approved and received for information. Is remove 1600 02:23:22,240 --> 02:23:28,800 and secondary. Moved by Gray, seconded by Dinsky. Uh there's the one item there 1601 02:23:27,040 --> 02:23:34,680 then the bell communications tower. Anybody wish to speak to that in any 1602 02:23:30,479 --> 02:23:34,680 way? Uh the deputy mayor. 1603 02:23:35,040 --> 02:23:42,880 » Um thank you through I had a hard time uh reading the um the concurrence 1604 02:23:40,960 --> 02:23:49,040 package information. So perhaps this was in there um so I apologize if it was but 1605 02:23:45,840 --> 02:23:52,960 um the reference to barbed wire around the telecommunications tower. I 1606 02:23:50,960 --> 02:23:58,880 understand the need for safety and security. However, um it wasn't clear 1607 02:23:56,240 --> 02:24:06,399 from the drawing how close this was going to be to the sidewalk and is there 1608 02:24:02,160 --> 02:24:12,960 any potential whatsoever for any kind of um opportunity to put some landscaping 1609 02:24:10,319 --> 02:24:17,200 there so that >> the sound isn't on. 1610 02:24:16,479 --> 02:24:20,240 » Um sorry, >> hold on a second. I guess we have you're 1611 02:24:18,960 --> 02:24:23,960 hearing that from somebody that they're not hearing this. 1612 02:24:26,000 --> 02:24:30,000 Okay, >> deputy mayor here. 1613 02:24:29,024 --> 02:24:35,439 [laughter] >> I was just about to talk about barbed 1614 02:24:31,840 --> 02:24:39,120 wire. Um, so I I just was curious um how close to the sidewalk is this tower. It 1615 02:24:37,359 --> 02:24:45,120 wasn't I I couldn't figure that out from the map and um it was mentioned about 1616 02:24:42,560 --> 02:24:49,520 barb wire being around the installation. Um I understand for safety and security 1617 02:24:47,840 --> 02:24:54,080 that that that would be necessary. However, it's a pretty prominent 1618 02:24:51,040 --> 02:24:58,240 location um adjacent to the highway um in Port Elgen and in an area where, you 1619 02:24:56,560 --> 02:25:03,439 know, we're trying to get other businesses to do a little little um 1620 02:25:01,359 --> 02:25:08,319 aesthetic improvement along the highway. Is there any potential to encourage or 1621 02:25:06,000 --> 02:25:14,800 to require I realize it's on private property, but to require um some 1622 02:25:11,280 --> 02:25:19,359 consideration to the look? Um so, two question, well, three questions there. 1623 02:25:17,120 --> 02:25:25,680 How close to the sidewalk is it? Do we have any potential and um can we ask for 1624 02:25:23,040 --> 02:25:28,720 landscaping >> the manager? 1625 02:25:27,520 --> 02:25:33,920 » Thank you. And through you, Mayor Sharbano. Uh so there is a a plan 1626 02:25:31,680 --> 02:25:38,000 included in the concurrence package and what it's showing is that the the the 1627 02:25:36,160 --> 02:25:44,080 tower itself will be located in the center of what is the compound and there 1628 02:25:41,040 --> 02:25:49,439 is a distance um for the access which is showing at 7.28 m to the concrete 1629 02:25:47,120 --> 02:25:56,880 sidewalk. So that's the the answer to the distance of the the area to to the 1630 02:25:53,040 --> 02:26:02,960 existing sidewalk. In terms of um landscaping or any s sort of site design 1631 02:25:59,600 --> 02:26:06,640 considerations, this uh this poll is actually exempt from requiring a 1632 02:26:04,560 --> 02:26:10,319 building permit is exempt from meeting site plan control. And so while there 1633 02:26:08,640 --> 02:26:15,439 can be comments that are that are forwarded on um there wouldn't be any 1634 02:26:12,399 --> 02:26:20,160 necessarily requirements uh per se in terms of of what the final design will 1635 02:26:18,000 --> 02:26:26,960 look like. >> Good premier. Um would it be appropriate 1636 02:26:23,280 --> 02:26:32,640 then to um encourage um you know we we do have some design 1637 02:26:29,200 --> 02:26:37,520 guidelines and some some uh examples nearby where where things have happened 1638 02:26:35,359 --> 02:26:41,520 adjacent to the sidewalk, adjacent to the highway to to provide some 1639 02:26:39,520 --> 02:26:47,280 encouragement either to the property owner or to um the builder of the tower 1640 02:26:44,720 --> 02:26:51,920 themselves to to you know do what they can do to make it look a little more 1641 02:26:49,680 --> 02:26:56,479 attractive from the street. the manager. 1642 02:26:53,760 --> 02:27:01,439 » Um I can certainly um pass that along to the applicant. 1643 02:26:58,800 --> 02:27:05,600 » Okay. Any other comments on this one? Seeing none, then I this will consider 1644 02:27:03,520 --> 02:27:09,439 the resolution then on the consent agenda. It's been moved and seconded. 1645 02:27:07,040 --> 02:27:14,640 All in favor? That is carried. All right. So now we will move on to mo 1646 02:27:12,399 --> 02:27:22,160 motions and notices of motion. There are two notices there 11.1.1 and 11.1.2. 1647 02:27:19,600 --> 02:27:26,240 Those two items will be considered at the next council meeting and then we're 1648 02:27:24,160 --> 02:27:31,960 on to the one for consideration which I have interest in. So I'm going to turn 1649 02:27:27,920 --> 02:27:31,960 that to the deputy mayor. 1650 02:27:35,200 --> 02:27:45,040 Okay. Um we have a notice or a motion u moved by 1651 02:27:42,800 --> 02:27:50,240 councelor Halpen, seconded by councelor Grace. Um and it reads, "Whereas Highway 1652 02:27:47,439 --> 02:27:54,080 21 between Concession 10 in Port Elgen and South Street in Southampton is under 1653 02:27:52,640 --> 02:27:59,040 the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Transportation of Ontario, MTO) and 1654 02:27:56,479 --> 02:28:04,880 whereas the Sin Rail Trail, SRT, is a yearround multi-use trail and designated 1655 02:28:02,720 --> 02:28:09,040 active transportation corridor built on a former railway line which directly 1656 02:28:07,359 --> 02:28:13,439 connects three communities within the town of Sagin Shores. And whereas the 1657 02:28:11,439 --> 02:28:18,080 SRT serves as a key active transportation connection between Port 1658 02:28:15,600 --> 02:28:22,560 Agen and Southampton with several access points along the corridor between 1659 02:28:19,840 --> 02:28:27,280 concession 10 and South Street that are regularly used by trail trail users. And 1660 02:28:25,439 --> 02:28:32,479 whereas the corridor is utilized by residents, daily commuters, visitors, 1661 02:28:30,000 --> 02:28:37,040 tourists, cyclists, pedestrians, and users of the SRT resulting in increased 1662 02:28:35,520 --> 02:28:42,479 interaction between active transportation users and high-speed 1663 02:28:39,680 --> 02:28:46,880 vehicular traffic. And whereas there are commercial 1664 02:28:44,160 --> 02:28:51,520 businesses, agricultural properties, and four partially controlled intersections 1665 02:28:49,439 --> 02:28:58,160 located along this section of Highway 21, generating regular vehicular 1666 02:28:54,960 --> 02:29:02,399 movements and additional conflict points for all road users, especially during 1667 02:29:00,080 --> 02:29:05,920 peak seasons. And whereas the Sagine Rail Trail Association has requested 1668 02:29:04,160 --> 02:29:11,120 that the speed limit on this section of highway 21 be reduced from 80 kilometers 1669 02:29:08,720 --> 02:29:16,720 per hour to 60 kilometers per hour due to safety concerns. Near. Now, 1670 02:29:13,760 --> 02:29:20,240 therefore, be it be it resolved that the council of the town of Sagging Shores 1671 02:29:18,479 --> 02:29:25,840 formally request that the Ministry of Transportation of Ontario review the 1672 02:29:22,560 --> 02:29:30,240 posted speed limit on Highway 21 between concession 10 in Port Algen and South 1673 02:29:28,240 --> 02:29:34,800 Street in Southampton and consider reducing the speed limit to 60 1674 02:29:31,920 --> 02:29:41,120 kilometers per hour and further that this resolution be circulated to the 1675 02:29:36,960 --> 02:29:46,319 honorable Pragmat uh Sarah, Minister of Transportation, the MTO West 1676 02:29:43,359 --> 02:29:50,720 region office, Lisa Thompson MPP for Hon Bruce and the Sagine Rail Trail 1677 02:29:48,319 --> 02:29:56,720 Association for information and support. Again, it's moved by councelor Halpin, 1678 02:29:53,359 --> 02:30:02,479 seconded by councelor Grace. Um, I will open it up for discussion. Councelor 1679 02:29:58,399 --> 02:30:07,280 Halpin first, then councelor Dinsky. >> Uh, thank you. [clears throat] Thank 1680 02:30:04,640 --> 02:30:12,640 you, Chair, and through you. I I really believe we need to support this. The 1681 02:30:10,160 --> 02:30:17,439 traffic continually increases as our community is growing. Something needs to 1682 02:30:14,800 --> 02:30:23,840 be done for safety. A lower speed limit will also benefit the cars entering and 1683 02:30:19,760 --> 02:30:28,880 exit exiting the many ways you can enter and exit Highway 21 in that section, 1684 02:30:26,960 --> 02:30:35,200 including of course County Road 3 junction. you know, um, 1685 02:30:32,720 --> 02:30:40,319 this is I know councelor Grace is going to discuss this more and has much to say 1686 02:30:37,760 --> 02:30:45,840 about this, but the town has a binder I' I've told about this thick on this file 1687 02:30:43,120 --> 02:30:50,319 to to try to move it forward. I just want to acknowledge and thank the Song 1688 02:30:47,840 --> 02:30:54,720 Rail Trail and Ken Mercer, the the chairman of the Rail Trail for 1689 02:30:52,399 --> 02:31:02,479 initiating this. this was his initiation he asked me to do and um and I'm just 1690 02:30:59,840 --> 02:31:08,520 looking for my colleagues support on this. Thank you 1691 02:31:05,200 --> 02:31:08,520 » councelor Dinsky. 1692 02:31:09,120 --> 02:31:16,800 » Thank you deputy mayor and through you uh to councelor Halpin. Councelor 1693 02:31:14,640 --> 02:31:24,720 Halpin, you were at the association of municipalities of Ontario last week. Did 1694 02:31:19,680 --> 02:31:30,920 you get a chance to talk to any MTO members about this uh about this notice 1695 02:31:27,840 --> 02:31:30,920 of motion? 1696 02:31:37,600 --> 02:31:46,479 » Um thank you chair through you. Uh no we did not. We made three delegations but 1697 02:31:43,680 --> 02:31:51,760 we did not make a delegation to the minister. I did see him there. he was 1698 02:31:48,960 --> 02:32:00,240 answering questions um during the question and answer period and uh but no 1699 02:31:57,439 --> 02:32:08,319 » councelor Grace. Uh thank you madame deputy mayor. Um I 1700 02:32:04,080 --> 02:32:13,840 do have some background comments um to support councelor Halpin's um 1701 02:32:10,960 --> 02:32:20,240 motion. The town has been working on this issue since before 2013. 1702 02:32:18,319 --> 02:32:24,880 I was a member of the rail trail association as a board uh council 1703 02:32:23,120 --> 02:32:32,319 representative um and wrote a motion which was passed 1704 02:32:27,520 --> 02:32:37,120 by council um to request that the MTO visit 1705 02:32:33,840 --> 02:32:44,560 uh and assess the conditions around um this section of road in early June 2017 1706 02:32:41,200 --> 02:32:50,880 they did visit they presented a summary of their findings ings uh which were 1707 02:32:48,399 --> 02:32:58,319 presented to council. Um their conclusions were first that a 1708 02:32:54,880 --> 02:33:03,920 speed limit of 80 kilometers an hour does not permit a pedestrian 1709 02:33:01,040 --> 02:33:10,080 signal or crossover. Um they indicated that they thought that 1710 02:33:07,280 --> 02:33:15,359 the 80 kilometer speed limit was appropriate because the area is zoned 1711 02:33:12,479 --> 02:33:21,840 agricultural. So the minimum driveway separation is far enough apart to permit 1712 02:33:18,720 --> 02:33:27,359 that speed limit. They also presented a psychological argument 1713 02:33:24,399 --> 02:33:33,200 uh saying that when one is driving out of town, drivers expect to drive 80 1714 02:33:30,800 --> 02:33:38,960 kilometers an hour because they think speed naturally increases out out of 1715 02:33:35,840 --> 02:33:45,840 town. and that if the speed was reduced to 60 kilometers an hour, this would 1716 02:33:42,319 --> 02:33:50,720 cause an extra hazard to trail users who expect slower speeds, but the drivers 1717 02:33:48,399 --> 02:33:56,080 won't slow down and that would give trail users a false sense of security. 1718 02:33:54,000 --> 02:34:04,080 So, that was the way it was left in 2017. 1719 02:33:58,080 --> 02:34:10,640 Um the MTO rejected our re the council requests and the rail trail requests for 1720 02:34:07,680 --> 02:34:14,880 some kind of added security uh safety measures. 1721 02:34:12,240 --> 02:34:21,359 In January 2023, uh I was part of a delegation to the MTO 1722 02:34:18,640 --> 02:34:27,120 at the Roma conference and we specifically ask the ministry to 1723 02:34:24,800 --> 02:34:37,200 consider some additional facts and change circumstances since 2017. 1724 02:34:32,399 --> 02:34:41,920 Um we argued that the 2017 ministry decision was based on their 1725 02:34:39,520 --> 02:34:47,200 understanding that the surrounding area is zoned agricultural. However, the 1726 02:34:44,640 --> 02:34:52,240 lands adjacent to the highway are also zoned agricultural, commercial, and 1727 02:34:49,600 --> 02:34:57,760 commercial recreational, and that this type of zoning has affected and increase 1728 02:34:55,280 --> 02:35:04,640 the number and placement of driveways and entrances with businesses like a 1729 02:35:00,479 --> 02:35:09,600 commercial nursery, garage, storage, the farm produce market, a number of 1730 02:35:06,560 --> 02:35:16,000 residences, and a campground. Other changes um the number in placement of 1731 02:35:12,960 --> 02:35:23,280 driveways since 2017. Um as of 2023, there were 15 entrances 1732 02:35:20,640 --> 02:35:29,840 to the highway between Bruce County Road 3 and the 10th concession. Of those 12 1733 02:35:27,120 --> 02:35:34,479 were commercial or residential and three were road entrances. 1734 02:35:32,080 --> 02:35:39,359 Uh also other changes, a storage facility entrance was immediately 1735 02:35:36,160 --> 02:35:43,760 adjacent to the a new one was immediately adjacent to the eastern rail 1736 02:35:41,359 --> 02:35:50,880 trail entrance and the Hibberry Farms entrance move farther to the south. 1737 02:35:46,880 --> 02:35:55,520 Um to respond to the MTO's psychological arguments that drivers will still speed, 1738 02:35:53,359 --> 02:36:02,240 but those using the crossings will expect slower speeds and will therefore 1739 02:35:58,000 --> 02:36:07,040 be more vulnerable. Uh we argued that just to the north of Bruce County Road 1740 02:36:04,160 --> 02:36:11,920 3, the speed limit on Highway 21 lowers to 60 kilometers an hour for about half 1741 02:36:10,000 --> 02:36:18,000 the distance between Southampton and Port Elgen. This is routinely enforced 1742 02:36:14,479 --> 02:36:23,600 by the town's police force and generally respected by drivers. The 60 kilometer 1743 02:36:21,200 --> 02:36:29,280 an hour speed limit on Highway 21 through Sagging First Nation is largely 1744 02:36:25,920 --> 02:36:34,319 respected by drivers and on their roads. Bruce County has recently reduced the 1745 02:36:31,359 --> 02:36:39,520 speed limit to 70 kilometers an hour for significant stretches in agricultural 1746 02:36:36,960 --> 02:36:44,319 zones approaching and leaving hamlets and villages. 1747 02:36:41,680 --> 02:36:51,200 uh also that the timing of the study in early June of 2017 1748 02:36:47,840 --> 02:36:55,920 uh was a time that didn't allow the MTO to see the period of busiest use of the 1749 02:36:53,359 --> 02:37:02,479 rail trail crossing as well as the increased use of the highway um from 1750 02:36:59,840 --> 02:37:10,800 2017 to 2023 because our permanent population 1751 02:37:05,359 --> 02:37:15,920 uh had grown 16% between 2016 and 2020. 21 and that we are a very popular 1752 02:37:13,359 --> 02:37:21,200 tourist destination and our seasonal population and visitors increase uh 1753 02:37:18,720 --> 02:37:26,800 those numbers as well. Um on uh the issue of driver 1754 02:37:24,399 --> 02:37:34,800 inconvenience that 60 kilometers an hour is too slow. Um my husband and I uh both 1755 02:37:31,200 --> 02:37:40,800 drove separately uh and timed the driving of the stretch at various speeds 1756 02:37:37,600 --> 02:37:46,000 60 and 80 kilometers an hour and we recorded multiple times a difference of 1757 02:37:43,200 --> 02:37:53,120 about 1 and a half minutes. Um 1758 02:37:48,960 --> 02:37:58,240 okay uh a resident recently suggested that we keep the speed the same. it 1759 02:37:55,840 --> 02:38:04,399 would be too dangerous to otherwise, but that the solution would be creating a 1760 02:38:01,600 --> 02:38:10,880 pedestrian crossover similar to the pedestrian activated uh crosses 1761 02:38:07,280 --> 02:38:17,520 crossovers in Southampton. I looked up the most recent edition of the Ontario 1762 02:38:13,600 --> 02:38:23,040 Traffic Manual, book 12, which was last published in July 2024. 1763 02:38:20,720 --> 02:38:28,479 And in its section on pedestrian crossovers, it says that quote, 1764 02:38:25,680 --> 02:38:34,479 "Pedestrian crossovers are intended for low to moderate volume low-speed 1765 02:38:31,040 --> 02:38:42,080 roadways, specifically 60 kilometers an hour or less posted speed. So unless the 1766 02:38:39,040 --> 02:38:47,600 speed is reduced, if there ever was a hope to be a pedestrian crossover, which 1767 02:38:44,160 --> 02:38:52,000 has been um routinely rejected by the MTO, uh that's the only way it would 1768 02:38:50,160 --> 02:38:56,720 ever be able to be done under the current traffic regulations. 1769 02:38:54,720 --> 02:39:01,200 Um, town staff continues to work with the 1770 02:38:59,120 --> 02:39:05,920 Ministry of Transportation to investigate various uh, solutions 1771 02:39:04,399 --> 02:39:11,920 including um, not just the speed limit but trail 1772 02:39:09,040 --> 02:39:19,600 signage. Uh, the question of pedestrian crossovers and shoulder paving. Um, as I 1773 02:39:16,880 --> 02:39:26,560 said, uh, the MTO has consistently rejected the solution of a pedestrian 1774 02:39:22,479 --> 02:39:31,040 crossover. Um, I do support the proposed motion. Thank you, 1775 02:39:29,520 --> 02:39:34,359 » Vice Deputy Mayor Matt, and then councelor Matt. 1776 02:39:34,560 --> 02:39:40,640 » Yeah, thank you, Deputy Mayor. And, um, I I like to take this a little I'm going 1777 02:39:38,960 --> 02:39:45,359 to support the motion, councelor Halpin and Grace. I think it's worth another 1778 02:39:42,960 --> 02:39:49,040 try. Um, I'm going to take this a little different direction. And I think as we 1779 02:39:46,720 --> 02:39:53,680 all know the the MTO's council Greece alluded to you know they determined 1780 02:39:51,439 --> 02:39:58,160 number of laneways that front on highway 21 does not meet that threshold allow 1781 02:39:56,080 --> 02:40:03,840 for speed limit change and that's that's been that's been their their stance. I 1782 02:40:00,960 --> 02:40:08,000 joined staff here in 2001 that's been their stance from last 25 years is 1783 02:40:06,720 --> 02:40:11,600 probably going to continue to be their stance. And I think I think we're 1784 02:40:10,000 --> 02:40:15,439 dreaming if we're thinking about an overhead pass for an underground tunnel. 1785 02:40:13,280 --> 02:40:20,800 I think we'll be waiting forever. I think you'll be waiting forever. And um 1786 02:40:18,960 --> 02:40:25,680 I I'm going to take it a little different direction and I the neighbors 1787 02:40:22,800 --> 02:40:32,960 may not like like to hear this but you know in um 2028 I think it is in the 1788 02:40:30,160 --> 02:40:35,760 10ear capital plan and just hear me out on this because I think this is 1789 02:40:34,240 --> 02:40:40,640 something I'd like staff to think about and council to think the future council 1790 02:40:37,439 --> 02:40:45,120 to think about in 2028. Um, I think there's pro in the tenure capital plan, 1791 02:40:42,720 --> 02:40:50,000 there's provisions uh for a controlled intersection at the intersection of 1792 02:40:47,680 --> 02:40:53,520 concession 10, highway 21. There's talk about that and I tell you why there 1793 02:40:51,520 --> 02:40:57,680 needs to be talk about that because you got a brand new public school coming in 1794 02:40:55,200 --> 02:41:00,960 off of cont concession 10 and and probably a Catholic school within the 1795 02:40:59,200 --> 02:41:05,359 next four or five years. There going to be a ton of traffic, ton of traffic 1796 02:41:03,439 --> 02:41:09,840 using concession 10. You're going to have to have a controlled intersection 1797 02:41:06,800 --> 02:41:15,920 at concession 10. Here's my thought. I believe that the MTO 1798 02:41:13,520 --> 02:41:20,000 should expropriate and they need to expropriate land on the west side of the 1799 02:41:18,399 --> 02:41:23,439 highway. And I say those property owners, we know who they are. There's 1800 02:41:21,920 --> 02:41:27,200 three of them, three major property owners. 1801 02:41:24,960 --> 02:41:31,120 But you talk to the MOT and take it in that direction. I think to get the speed 1802 02:41:28,720 --> 02:41:34,479 limit reduced from 80 to 60, I think you're going to be fighting that for a 1803 02:41:32,399 --> 02:41:38,240 long time. I think you're going to be fighting that for a very long time. And 1804 02:41:36,160 --> 02:41:43,439 there's going to be continue to be near accidents, serious accidents. And uh we 1805 02:41:41,840 --> 02:41:47,359 see we see them or we're driving along there. People trying to c just the other 1806 02:41:45,280 --> 02:41:53,520 day. It was close. There was a there was a there was a close situation. But I 1807 02:41:50,560 --> 02:42:01,120 think you need to take that the cyclists and the walkers off of the rail trail. 1808 02:41:57,520 --> 02:42:04,880 Move them 300 m. Turn left. When you if you if you picture coming north on the 1809 02:42:02,640 --> 02:42:10,080 rail trail in behind the plex, you know what I'm talking about on on Wellington 1810 02:42:06,560 --> 02:42:16,240 Water, Wellington Street, you turn left to the controlled intersection. You 1811 02:42:12,880 --> 02:42:19,600 cross safely with lights. You cross safely. There's going to be there going 1812 02:42:17,439 --> 02:42:24,479 to be lights there at that intersection. You cross safely at the intersection. 1813 02:42:22,479 --> 02:42:29,120 You go on the west side of the road. You talk to the MTO about about 1814 02:42:26,399 --> 02:42:34,319 expropriating and get it done. If they can't see their way to getting that 1815 02:42:31,920 --> 02:42:39,439 speed limit reduced from 80 to 60, then look at another way of doing it. And the 1816 02:42:36,960 --> 02:42:44,080 other way of doing it could be by moving all of those pedestrian cyclists on, you 1817 02:42:42,319 --> 02:42:47,520 know, you fill in the ditch on the west side of the road and you take those 1818 02:42:45,760 --> 02:42:51,600 those cyclist walkers right up to that rail trail. You eliminate eliminate that 1819 02:42:50,399 --> 02:42:56,640 section of trail where they have to cross that busy highway. It's going to 1820 02:42:53,520 --> 02:43:01,840 be a risk forever, folks. It is. And and I think we need to think outside the 1821 02:42:58,240 --> 02:43:05,200 box. I really do. I I I I mean that very sincerely. I think you need to think 1822 02:43:03,120 --> 02:43:10,160 outside the box, take the cyclist to the controlled 1823 02:43:06,960 --> 02:43:14,479 intersection, talk to the MO about expropriation and get it done. That's I 1824 02:43:12,880 --> 02:43:18,240 think the approach you need to I'll support the motion because I think you 1825 02:43:16,319 --> 02:43:23,920 put a lot of work into it. Try it again. I I I joined staff in 2001. I think this 1826 02:43:21,439 --> 02:43:28,080 is four or five times now that the M2 has been approached about reducing the 1827 02:43:26,160 --> 02:43:31,439 speed limit. I think you'll be waiting forever. I just don't think it's going 1828 02:43:30,000 --> 02:43:35,760 to get done. You're not going to see an overhead pass or a tunnel. Look at 1829 02:43:33,760 --> 02:43:42,359 another way of doing it and that's I think cross at the control intersection. 1830 02:43:38,479 --> 02:43:42,359 Anyways, that's my thought. 1831 02:43:42,800 --> 02:43:51,120 » Council Matt. >> Thank you, Deputy Mayor. 1832 02:43:48,880 --> 02:43:58,800 Councelor Grace and I agree on many things. 1833 02:43:54,080 --> 02:44:04,479 This is not one of them. Uh in 2017 we this the council of the day purposely 1834 02:44:01,680 --> 02:44:09,040 struck out the recommendation to go from six from 80 to 60 km an hour and we did 1835 02:44:06,800 --> 02:44:12,640 that after significant debate and careful thought 1836 02:44:11,040 --> 02:44:16,960 and um despite that it was represented at 1837 02:44:14,880 --> 02:44:22,560 Roma a couple of years ago that we had passed a resolution to that effect and 1838 02:44:20,000 --> 02:44:28,000 it was and you apologized and you did but you misunderstood how the motion 1839 02:44:25,760 --> 02:44:36,399 I don't think that changing the speed limit 24 hours a day, 1840 02:44:31,279 --> 02:44:42,399 7 days a week, 365 days a year for what are a few days in the summer when it's 1841 02:44:39,920 --> 02:44:47,040 difficult to cross that road is sound planning there. If you're going to try 1842 02:44:44,240 --> 02:44:52,240 and cross that road on Friday afternoon between 2 and 6:00 in the evening or a 1843 02:44:50,240 --> 02:44:55,680 lot of afternoons during rush hour, Bruce Power rush hour, and there is a 1844 02:44:53,760 --> 02:45:00,080 rush hour here now, you're going to have some trouble. But there are many times 1845 02:44:58,319 --> 02:45:04,240 you can cross that road, go try it on a Sunday morning at 8:00, 1846 02:45:02,479 --> 02:45:08,319 you you cross, you can walk across there, you can crawl across there, you 1847 02:45:05,680 --> 02:45:13,680 won't get hit by a car. So making permanent solutions to temporary 1848 02:45:11,359 --> 02:45:17,439 problems is not sound planning in my opinion. 1849 02:45:15,279 --> 02:45:21,439 Um I I drive that road. I don't drive it 1850 02:45:19,359 --> 02:45:25,680 every day, but I drive it fairly frequently. And if I see some cyclists 1851 02:45:23,760 --> 02:45:29,680 or walkers on the side of the road trying to cross, I slow down. My eyes 1852 02:45:28,399 --> 02:45:32,880 aren't as good as they used to be, but I can see people standing on the side of 1853 02:45:30,960 --> 02:45:37,040 the road, I'll slow down and I'll maybe even give them a wave across. even if it 1854 02:45:34,720 --> 02:45:41,439 means holding up some cars behind me. That's what conscientious drivers do. We 1855 02:45:39,040 --> 02:45:47,760 haven't, you know, knockwood, we have not had a serious bicycle pedestrian car 1856 02:45:45,200 --> 02:45:55,120 collision at that intersection. uh where our previous director of public 1857 02:45:51,120 --> 02:45:59,760 uh of engineering used to say when when plans are made around controlled 1858 02:45:56,640 --> 02:46:06,880 intersections and speed limits they use stat statistics and I can't get that 1859 02:46:04,000 --> 02:46:10,640 word out statistics say that if you have one accident it's an isolated event if 1860 02:46:09,439 --> 02:46:14,399 you have two it's a trend if you have three it's a problem when you have three 1861 02:46:12,399 --> 02:46:18,160 accidents at an intersection that's when they start looking at making changes for 1862 02:46:16,880 --> 02:46:22,970 solutions We're at zero. Thank god we're at zero 1863 02:46:20,479 --> 02:46:26,479 because usually between a [clears throat] bicycle and a car, the 1864 02:46:24,399 --> 02:46:32,080 bicycle or the pedestrian doesn't fair as well. But we haven't had the problem 1865 02:46:29,279 --> 02:46:38,560 because drivers are generally courteous and smart pedestrians and smart cyclists 1866 02:46:35,279 --> 02:46:44,319 don't go at the peak times of day, peak times of the summer. After Labor Day, 1867 02:46:41,439 --> 02:46:48,399 traffic drops right off except for maybe half an hour in the morning and half 1868 02:46:45,600 --> 02:46:52,240 hour in the evening. So, I don't I don't think that warrants it. I I agree with 1869 02:46:50,240 --> 02:46:56,319 the vice deputy mayor that the MTO is not going to support this anyway. We've 1870 02:46:54,160 --> 02:47:01,439 asked they've been asked lots of times. That just the the traffic counts don't 1871 02:46:59,200 --> 02:47:06,240 support it. The rural designation doesn't support it and the number of 1872 02:47:03,279 --> 02:47:09,920 driveways doesn't support it. So, I know it's going to pass because I can 1873 02:47:07,840 --> 02:47:15,840 see the nods around the room, but uh it's it it's futile and I won't be 1874 02:47:12,720 --> 02:47:19,479 supporting it, but uh good luck getting it done in the future. 1875 02:47:19,680 --> 02:47:27,840 » Couns Councelor Stack, [clears throat] >> thank you. So, maybe two things. So, I 1876 02:47:25,600 --> 02:47:32,160 um I use the rail trail a lot in the summer. I do find the one advantage of 1877 02:47:30,240 --> 02:47:35,920 the 80 kilometers is that I'm always in desperate need of a respiratory break at 1878 02:47:34,319 --> 02:47:40,960 that point. So I will say the traffic does help. Um however I I think the 1879 02:47:39,359 --> 02:47:45,920 issue is really it's kind of probability versus consequence here. So the 1880 02:47:43,920 --> 02:47:51,840 probability is perhaps at this point low that someone will get hurt or killed but 1881 02:47:48,240 --> 02:47:55,359 the consequence uh is high. And I think where my concern is is less about the 1882 02:47:53,680 --> 02:47:59,520 adults that cross the road. But I don't know if you've ever spoken to a 13 to 1883 02:47:57,520 --> 02:48:05,520 17year-old teenager for instance. Their attention spans and a awareness of their 1884 02:48:02,640 --> 02:48:09,439 surroundings is often not 10 out of 10. So I think from my perspective I think 1885 02:48:07,520 --> 02:48:14,000 it's a worthwhile issue to continue to raise just for the basis that we do have 1886 02:48:11,120 --> 02:48:17,359 a lot of kids using those paths. Um ideally with helmets and without their 1887 02:48:15,760 --> 02:48:22,720 cell phone in the hand but I've seen several instances of kids on bikes on e- 1888 02:48:20,399 --> 02:48:25,680 scooters on regular scooters crossing that road. So, I just think it's a 1889 02:48:24,000 --> 02:48:30,880 worthwhile exercise even if nothing comes of it because the MTO has its 1890 02:48:27,760 --> 02:48:35,800 views. I think um continuing to raise awareness of the potential risk is I 1891 02:48:32,640 --> 02:48:35,800 think worthwhile, 1892 02:48:36,319 --> 02:48:39,720 » councelor Halen. 1893 02:48:40,399 --> 02:48:46,399 » Uh thank you, Deputy Mayor and through you. 1894 02:48:43,680 --> 02:48:49,920 Uh, you know, councelor Matt, I I kind of supported you on that last time and 1895 02:48:48,240 --> 02:48:55,040 that was the wrong thing to do. It's the guy on the rail trail, I found out, but 1896 02:48:52,967 --> 02:49:00,800 [laughter] so I'm back here with hat in hand asking that this be done again. I 1897 02:48:58,160 --> 02:49:08,240 just want to mention that the rail trail on its own dime has 1898 02:49:05,760 --> 02:49:14,160 has started the engineering for paving the shoulders. They they are they are 1899 02:49:11,600 --> 02:49:20,240 working very hard at this and I I just want to tell you how passionate they are 1900 02:49:16,080 --> 02:49:25,840 about getting this crossing looked after and so they have the engineering in. 1901 02:49:23,359 --> 02:49:29,920 It's just a shame that Raul left when he did because he was really I felt like he 1902 02:49:28,319 --> 02:49:36,640 was really kind of championing this and and and making some headway with the MTO 1903 02:49:33,439 --> 02:49:44,160 and um so you know the rail trail has worked hard on this and councelor or 1904 02:49:39,920 --> 02:49:49,680 vice deputy mayor I I love your idea that is a really long-term idea but you 1905 02:49:46,720 --> 02:49:55,520 know that that is a good idea and thank you for that. And you know what? 1906 02:49:53,359 --> 02:50:02,319 You you you you just need sometimes to keep asking. 1907 02:49:59,200 --> 02:50:07,840 Going to AMO. Um I I went to a delegation once and they had no in their 1908 02:50:05,600 --> 02:50:11,680 face this first minute we walked in there. We went the next time and we 1909 02:50:09,439 --> 02:50:16,800 asked and they said, "Well," and then we went back and then we got the money. So, 1910 02:50:13,520 --> 02:50:23,640 you know, if if you don't keep asking, if we don't ask, we know it'll never 1911 02:50:18,640 --> 02:50:23,640 happen. So, thank you. 1912 02:50:26,880 --> 02:50:33,720 » Anyone else? >> Um, [clears throat] Vice Deputy May, 1913 02:50:34,000 --> 02:50:41,359 » I just want to say I I just want to plead with you one more time is 1914 02:50:39,120 --> 02:50:46,880 meet with the MTO. If they won't pass this speed limit this time, if this if 1915 02:50:43,520 --> 02:50:51,120 this fails again, talk to the MTO. the neighbors won't be too happy about it, 1916 02:50:48,240 --> 02:50:55,520 but talk about that 20 ft filling in the ditch and moving the trail on the west 1917 02:50:53,920 --> 02:50:59,439 side of the road crossing at a controlled intersection. Just want to 1918 02:50:57,600 --> 02:51:02,600 repeat that. I just think it's got a lot of merit. 1919 02:51:03,840 --> 02:51:10,560 I agree with you about the west side of the road. I would be curious to know if 1920 02:51:08,080 --> 02:51:15,920 the longerterm plan though is not a signal but a roundabout at concession 10 1921 02:51:13,680 --> 02:51:20,479 and the highway which sets up a an opportunity still but um a little 1922 02:51:18,080 --> 02:51:25,200 different. And I would I would also add um that heading in the other direction 1923 02:51:23,279 --> 02:51:32,640 on the east side of the road, you know, when when um we recently repaved 1924 02:51:28,479 --> 02:51:37,120 Carlile, we did put tiny um but there is definitely a little ashvault section off 1925 02:51:35,520 --> 02:51:42,560 the traveled portion of the road which has been increasingly used by cyclists. 1926 02:51:39,840 --> 02:51:49,680 But getting from where Carile hits County Road 3 across um in front of 1927 02:51:46,160 --> 02:51:55,680 basically um three four properties um Shane, Greg, um Everest, the church and 1928 02:51:52,720 --> 02:52:00,479 and the property at the corner. Um there was there was um no opportunity for that 1929 02:51:58,399 --> 02:52:06,399 either because that that seemed like a short stretch too and um because it 1930 02:52:03,520 --> 02:52:10,000 would enable a different route but without having to cross the highway. So, 1931 02:52:08,080 --> 02:52:15,920 I I agree with you about that, but is there any other comments at the moment? 1932 02:52:13,040 --> 02:52:20,960 Um, councelor Mette. >> Yes, thank you, Deputy Mayor. Just just 1933 02:52:17,600 --> 02:52:26,640 finally, um, they mentioned somebody mentioned ecooters and ebikes and this 1934 02:52:25,120 --> 02:52:30,000 this is where the accident's going to happen because these e- scooters and 1935 02:52:28,240 --> 02:52:34,080 ebikes have a great more potent great greater potential to speed into that 1936 02:52:32,319 --> 02:52:38,399 intersection and they're inattentive drivers who are driving because they're 1937 02:52:36,560 --> 02:52:44,479 soggy rail trail. Let's face it, it's lost its non-motorized status as far as 1938 02:52:40,800 --> 02:52:48,560 I'm concerned. These electric bicycles, they'll do 30 40 km an hour and you can 1939 02:52:46,960 --> 02:52:54,000 modify them to go faster than that and these scooters and everything else. Um, 1940 02:52:51,200 --> 02:52:56,720 that's if we have an accident, I think that's where it's going to be. It's 1941 02:52:55,040 --> 02:53:01,600 going to be one of these bikes. You got a, you know, young boy or young girl 1942 02:52:59,840 --> 02:53:05,520 riding a bicycle that they're not used to the speed and acceleration and and 1943 02:53:03,920 --> 02:53:09,439 and they're going to come up to an intersection like that. So hopefully 1944 02:53:07,920 --> 02:53:12,800 not, but that seems to be part of the problem too is even, you know, if you're 1945 02:53:11,200 --> 02:53:16,319 riding a bicycle or walking your dog on the rail trail, these bikes are going by 1946 02:53:14,399 --> 02:53:24,600 at a, you know, when you're going walking 40 km an hour is pretty fast. So 1947 02:53:20,160 --> 02:53:24,600 just that I point that out. 1948 02:53:24,640 --> 02:53:32,800 » Well, thank you. Seeing um no further comments, um we do have a 1949 02:53:30,800 --> 02:53:36,800 motion before us. Um again, moved by Councelor Halp and seconded by Councelor 1950 02:53:34,800 --> 02:53:44,920 Grace. Um, I'll call the question now. All those in favor? 1951 02:53:40,080 --> 02:53:44,920 Those opposed? That's carried. 1952 02:53:45,359 --> 02:53:52,640 And since the mayor has left the meeting, I will just continue along. Um, 1953 02:53:50,080 --> 02:54:02,520 item 13 on the agenda is bylaws. We have two bylaws before us. U bylaw uh 832026 1954 02:53:57,920 --> 02:54:02,520 local plan amendment L-2025-016 1955 02:54:02,720 --> 02:54:14,760 by SKG Holdings Incorporated and um bylaw 84-2026 1956 02:54:10,479 --> 02:54:14,760 zoning bylaw amendment Z-2025-027 1957 02:54:15,359 --> 02:54:23,279 by SKG Holdings Incorporated. Um, I have a recommendation that these uh two 1958 02:54:21,120 --> 02:54:28,000 bylaws are hereby read, passed, and sealed this 24th day of August the 20 1959 02:54:26,240 --> 02:54:33,520 August August 2026. Sorry. This 24th day of 1960 02:54:30,880 --> 02:54:37,600 August 2026. Um, can I have a mover and a second for that? Moved by Vice Deputy 1961 02:54:35,120 --> 02:54:41,880 Mermay, seconded by councelor Halpin. Any discussion to the two bylaws? 1962 02:54:43,279 --> 02:54:48,960 And um, note that councelor Grace did leave. All [clears throat] those in 1963 02:54:47,120 --> 02:54:53,760 favor? That's carried. Then we have a 1964 02:54:51,920 --> 02:54:59,279 confirmatory bylaw. I have a recommendation that bylaw 85-2026 1965 02:54:56,880 --> 02:55:02,800 being a bylaw to confirm the proceedings of the council of the town of Sagging 1966 02:55:00,960 --> 02:55:08,479 Shores. It's hereby read passed and sealed this 24th day of August 2026. 1967 02:55:06,000 --> 02:55:13,760 Moved by councelor Grace, seconded by councelor 1968 02:55:11,040 --> 02:55:17,520 Stack. Any discussion? All those in favor? 1969 02:55:15,359 --> 02:55:22,080 That's carried. Then I have a recommendation that this regular council 1970 02:55:19,279 --> 02:55:27,760 meeting of August 24th, 2026 hereby adjourns at 9:25 p.m. Moved by Vice 1971 02:55:25,920 --> 02:55:33,176 Deputy Mayor Matt, seconded by councelor Sack. All those in favor? 1972 02:55:30,399 --> 02:55:35,195 That's carried. >> [laughter]