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Now we can continue on. I think we're using the same zoom link. There's no changes with all of that. So it was everyone can stay on. And that brings us to our originally scheduled meeting, which is a work session. We've got a number of items down there. We still have a call us to order. We still have the same members present.

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You see the agenda in front of you. We have the four items there. I'll hear a motion to approve it.

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agenda when you're ready, please.

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Oh, make a motion to approve the agenda as submitted.

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I'll second.

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Thanks.

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Any discussion?

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Anything we've missed or overlooked?

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All those in favor of approving the agenda, please.

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Give me a sign.

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Thank you.

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That's a no.

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Also, Bonnie.

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I guess we'll dive right in.

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Our first order of business rip.

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No, excuse me.

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This is Jackie.

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Good evening.

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Everyone, I'm really excited to be here.

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I am here to officially kick off the planning period for Economic Development Strategic Plan in May, the Economic Development Department released an RFP and in August, the Mayor and City Council awarded the contract to KB Advisory Group.

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I want to thank Tucker North Lake CID, Tucker Summit CID and the Tucker DDA who all have come together to support this plan.

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With that, I want to introduce Jeff Koski with the President of KB Advisory Group who will be kicking this off with the presentation.

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Very much, Jackie.

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Marin Council, thank you very much.

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It's good to see you again.

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I was here not too long ago as you approved the beginning of this plan and now we're getting going.

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So we wanted to kind of give you a short update and dive in a little bit.

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And most importantly for me, I want to introduce my team to you because the hard work is going to be done

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and by all of us, but mostly by the people

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that you'll be introduced to later tonight,

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but as well as your staff and yours.

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Again, we appreciate the opportunity to be here

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and to work with you all.

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We've had a great day here.

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You graciously hosted us a city hall.

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We've been doing interviews.

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We've been touring.

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We had lunch at local seven.

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So we're getting to really know you.

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We're starting to got a long way to go to get there,

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but we will get there.

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Again, just as a matter of sort of review, if you will, of who we are, again you can

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see the project lead is my firm KB Advisory Group.

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We are local, we are offices are in Midtown, Atlanta.

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We do real estate market analysis and economic development consulting throughout the region,

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throughout the state, throughout the southeast.

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We have put together a team that we're really happy and proud of, and they will hear from

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them. My public engagement is being led by Urban Pulse and Christopher Pike is a former

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economic development director of the city of South Fulton, so also a fairly new city in

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the Atlanta region. So he has a ton of experience and understands how to sort of go through the

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first economic development strategic plan. He led that in South Fulton. So he's on the consulting

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side and leading our public engagement. So he will have a lot of great insights. And then

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And Molly McKay is with Will Dan out of Washington DC.

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She brings national insight as well as being a certified economic developer.

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So she's got a lot of experience and is already bringing some wonderful ideas to the table.

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I'm excited about that.

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So again, just to give everyone just a brief kind of introduction of what we're doing here,

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this is the city's first economic development strategic plan.

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But really, it's obviously, you know, you all know you've been through a lot of work.

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to get to this point and have done a tremendous amount of wonderful planning that we will build on.

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And I think that's important to think about and to name that we're not showing up here,

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you know, starting to ground zero and you guys have laid a fantastic groundwork for all of that that will come next.

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And so again, the kind of the big idea, the vision statement, if you will, is that this plan,

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the EDSP is going to create the foundation for the City of Tuckers near-term economic development

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policies, programs and investments. So that's really kind of the crux of it. What should Jackie

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be focused on and her staff? And you all really, I mean obviously everybody's involved in economic

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development. So it really sets the stage and again the goals, so if you think about strategy, right,

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you've got a big vision statement and we kind of drill down the goals. And so again the goal of all

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this is to really guide the planning and again it does bleed over into zoning and other

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elements within city hall but we're taking we're taking a look through the economic

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development lens hopefully to attract quality investment going going forward and then

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obviously to really kind of shape not just just to attract development but to really kind

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of shape who you are right as kind of on an economic from an economic standpoint to sort

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to build some consensus about what is your community's vision for the future.

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And that's a big word that we want to try to keep on the table if you will's consensus,

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right?

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Not everybody agrees with everything.

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Not everybody's going to agree with everything, but can we find some consensus that really helps

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define your vision for your future, again, from an economic development standpoint?

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And then, of course, once we've got a vision, once we've got a plan, a strategy, and then

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it's about implementation.

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And so that's key to all of this is that, you know, everyone knows about the proverbial

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plan that sits on the shelf and never gets to use, and of course that's what, and so

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focusing on really implementing this plan that will be developing over the next six months

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is hugely important.

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So with that, that is as much as I really want to say because I want you to, again, to meet

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the folks that are going to be doing the work, so the hard work, the hardest work.

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And so I want you to meet Tate Davis, who is a project manager.

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So Tate is really the person who is Jackie's main point of contact.

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And so that's why I want to show up and let you meet Tate a little bit,

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and she'll continue to tell you a little bit more about the plan.

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But again, thank you for your time.

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Good evening. I'm Tate Davis.

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And so I'm with Kaby Advisory, and we'll be the project manager for this project.

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And so I just want to walk you through the expectations,

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what it is we're going to be looking at to answer,

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to get to this ultimate deliverable to the city of Tucker and walk you through the timeline,

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so what you can expect and what that looks like getting to the finish line in March.

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So first, I kind of like to explain this in three buckets.

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So the first is really, our community engagement and our public engagement for the citizens

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of Tucker.

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What is the data that we can collect from them, both qualitative and quantitative, and of

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course Christopher Pike with Urban Pulse will be a part of that process too and is a wealth

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knowledge and public engagement. And the second is Tucker has many assets in one of which

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is an engaged business community. And so we want to hear from the business community and from

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that side of things and make sure that any visions that come from the community, any visions

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that come from the business community, let's find this common ground and the common vision

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for that. And finally, the economic profile report in that competitive benchmark so you can

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understand where you will be going, what's the trajectory and where are those goals that you

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want to hit once we've set the vision.

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And so this next slide really is what are the questions

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that we're going to answer. So I've kind of outlined the audiences that we're going to be, you know,

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getting these answers from, but what is the it factor for Tucker?

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And obviously the amount of assets and the amount of plans that have already been laid out are wonderful and great,

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and how can we use all of those and bring that synergy together to understand what industries exist here,

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what industry should be targeted, and how can we align that with all of the other initiatives that are going on?

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the expanding trail system, how is that an asset for economic development, if it's just

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one example?

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And then how do you, that's Tucker internally, but where does Tucker sit regionally?

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And that's the next kind of viewpoint that we're going to look at, and making sure that

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all of these come together in a way that we're getting best practices, the best policies,

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and really the best programs that Jackie and her team can implement moving forward that

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are tangible.

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Again, the plan, the shelf does nothing for anybody, and so we want to make sure we're

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building that consensus throughout the entire process from all parties to ultimately

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get to something that can be acted upon for the betterment of Tucker.

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And so this next schedule kind of shows you where we are.

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So this is a kickoff, which is wonderful.

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I'm very excited to be here.

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We've started to kick off our public input and engagement plan, so we've got that running

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through the end of November and that's let Christopher Pike give him to that so it won't steal

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his thunder. But really going through November to do that outreach both to the community

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at large and to our strategic stakeholders that are important in the dialogue of Tucker's

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future. The second that we'll be working on in the early term and really these the demographic

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and economic profile report and the Tucker and regional industry evaluations are really

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think of those as the baseline. Where's Tucker today? What does that look like? And that

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makes with the public engagement, we'll all feed into our SWOT analysis and consensus

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building. So once we've collected the data, we understand the many paths that could be taken.

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How do we narrow that down? How do we really all agree on what is the story to be told?

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And

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I mean, Jackie, I've had lots of conversations that toolbox should be concise and be

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able to be implemented effectively.

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And so finally, the plan creation and the presentations will work through the end of March.

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So that's really looking at next year.

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Once we've kind of set the stage in the beginning, and let's work through iterative policies

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on programming, and does that fit, make sure everybody's on board.

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because we're not all in board and then it doesn't get blended, that's not what we want.

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And so, that kind of outlines the entirety of our process here, but the public engagement

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is where we are right now, so I do want to hand it off to Christopher Pike, he's going

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to go through the public engagement and outreach program and-

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Mayor council good evening, I'm glad to be here, excited to be here.

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This plan is a little bit personal for me.

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some of y'all may know that actually grew up in Tucker. I moved to Tucker when I was about five

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and went to smoke rise and Brockett and then graduated from Tucker High School in 97. So it's been a

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while since I've been back to Tucker but definitely familiar with the community and it's been a big

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part of my life. So very excited to be here and to be involved with the first economic development

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strategic plan for the city. One of the things is an economic development professional that I always

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say is the hallmark of a good plan is only as good as community involvement, community engagement.

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And what community engagement does is allows you to create a plan and when you start implementing

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the plan, you don't have citizens coming to meetings and pitchforks upset about something that you're

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doing in the plan. And so as long as citizens have input in that plan, you generally don't have

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a lot of pushback when you start implementing things. I'm not saying all the time,

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I'm not giving you 100 percent guarantee, but it's always great to have public input when

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you're creating a plan.

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We want to make sure that this plan is something that represents the city.

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As I tell people, as an economic development professional when you come in, our job is to

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help the city be the best version of itself, not to be a community like somebody else's.

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So our job is to create a plan to make the city of Tucker the best version of itself and

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what it wants to be.

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So having said that, we've created four opportunities for the community to engage in person.

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Those meetings will be between City Hall and the City Hall Annex in downtown.

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There will also be a community survey so folks who aren't able to participate in the in-person

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meetings, we definitely still want to receive feedback from them and so the survey will be released

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this week and then citizens can go and take the survey which will give us

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similar information that we receive in a in-person meeting. So that gives

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everyone an opportunity to engage either a lot virtually or in person at one

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of our focus meetings. The other thing that we're going to do is speak with

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stakeholders. We will be setting up meetings not only with community stakeholders

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but also with the elected as official as well. We'll have one-on-one meetings with

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each one of you all to get your input and your thought processes as well as

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relates to the strategic plan and those all of those comments that we get

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back from the stakeholders and also the community will inform some of the

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next steps as it relates to actionable items in the strategic plan which is

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when it's delivered to the to the city. So having said that we definitely look

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forward to working with you all to create one of the best strategic plans for this

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community and something that you all can be proud of and so at this time we will

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answer any follow-up questions if it's desire of the mayor and happy to answer

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those questions at this time.

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I see you know I've got her hand up know I'll go ahead.

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Hey good evening how are you planning on engaging the businesses that we already

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they have.

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You know, the community, but because it is what it is, I would like to know how you're planning on pulling the existing businesses and to see what they have to say as well. Yes, absolutely. So we have asked the city to identify individuals that we will create. We will basically have these stakeholder engagement meetings. And so that will come from the list that we receive because obviously local folks here on the ground would know better who we need to talk to.

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but definitely want to make sure that we're engaged with the people that are brought to our

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attention and having those those would be the stakeholder meetings that we would coordinate.

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We also have the ability to do a business focused online survey as well.

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And so if they're not able or not part of those stakeholder meetings then they can also participate in that survey as well.

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Those meetings are different from the before you just had off.

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That's correct.

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The stakeholder meetings are different than the before community meetings.

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Yeah.

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Just one last question on that.

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Are you planning on using any of the data that we already have for the businesses that we have in Tucker?

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Yeah.

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We are as part of the process reviewing all the plans and all the data that the city already has.

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And it's positioned to help us guide as we move forward with the plan.

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Yes.

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Okay, and I guess my last question is, are you going to do a stakeholder analysis on these

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groups when they come in?

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Are you just going to take names from whoever provides them?

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When you say stakeholder analysis, I guess we could provide some more context.

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Well, like, you know, sample data.

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When you're doing statistics, you have sample populations and data that might form like one

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certain group, you just make sure that you had a sample population that was unbiased.

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Yeah, absolutely. We will definitely make sure that we have a cross-section of folks that participate, because obviously we want to get as much broad feedback as possible, so definitely the more broad that we can be with the feedback that we get the better the plan will be.

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Wonderful. Thank you so much.

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Thank you.

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If I could just add to say that we are, you know, by weekly meeting set up with Jackie,

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we are very interested in working with you all and taking as much input from you all as we can.

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So if at any point along the way you feel like we're missing the mark, if you feel like we've had a meeting,

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and there were populations that were underrepresented in some way, shape or form, complaint to us.

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Call me, buck stop with me.

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I don't want to leave out of here in March and say there were certain people who didn't get touched in a way that their input wasn't provided appropriately.

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So you have my word that we will get it right, and if we're not getting it right, please let us know.

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I have two questions. One is just a clarifying question. On the survey, we'll go to the community.

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When you say release this week, is it going to be only online or will it be mailed?

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The plan is to be only online and that there will be in mailing, the link will be provided in

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mailers, but there's not a plan for...

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But there will be a mailer that goes out, shoe, everybody, or...

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Well, I mean, we were hoping to maybe get it into possibly into something that might be going out, but...

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So, as it stands tonight, there isn't a specific mailing that it's intended to, which is there was an idea

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that could we

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again hadn't hadn't thought closely about you know a particular

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male mailing for this particular survey so that could be something. Well it kind of

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leads into my next question or comment which is as we all know we have the

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public referendum that we're all public works referendum that we're also

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looking at I am seeing like two dates on October 18th right we think our next

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referendum meeting is in the morning on the 18th and this is saying the evening of

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the 18th, so I think what I've witnessed my question is how are we getting clarity

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to the community when we're putting out these opportunities for engagement about what

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they're engaging on and why it's important and that might be something to like brainstorm

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a little bit. I just I want to make sure that we're reaching people fully. We have a lot

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of messaging that's really important for our whole community in Asheville and so that's

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My, I am very anxious for us to do this, so I'm not, I'm positive towards it.

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I just want to make sure that the message gets to the places that we want to.

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Absolutely, and I appreciate you saying that, and we spent some time with communications

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folks today.

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So I think, you know, that's just going to continue to be an ongoing conversation.

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So if I don't have a great answer for you tonight, I'll tell you that we're working on it and

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we want to work on it.

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So, and I hear you that there's a lot going out there for people to pay attention to.

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So we just got to kind of cut through that, get the messaging, right?

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You could provide us content for emails.

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Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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We can put up ourselves.

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That's our own.

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Right.

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And that's kind of the idea.

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That's usually how we work, right?

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And then you all know who gets what message is the best.

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But we can provide the content.

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Yeah, I think just as a follow-up, I think kind of to the same thing with the business community.

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Doing that kind of analysis of who did we get feedback from.

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I think that that would be really helpful for us to see on the community side because there are people in our community that we aren't always reaching and so I think we want to make sure as we're thinking about equitable economic development over time that we're making sure we're reaching all as many hours as we can.

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So just having a sense of who we are reaching and then how do we be creative about people?

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Yep, I heard you.

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Well,

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I'm just excited that Christopher Pike is coming back home to do some work here in Tucker.

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I don't know if you all know him, but he's amazing.

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I followed your work in Villa Rica.

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I don't know if people know that you are a former mayor pro tem and commissioner, right?

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And Albany.

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And your work that you did with South Fulton as they were in New City, I think years ago,

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I shared it with John, right?

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Their community plan that you guys took off on, so excited to see that you're even more amazing

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because you grew up in Tucker, so I appreciate you being here very much and looking forward to

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working with the rest of the team as well. Thank you very much.

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Anything else before they go?

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They're going to be getting harder work.

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We're local and our doors are open and you know we're

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available to you all as much as possible and we will be reaching out to you to formally get your input.

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Yeah I'm sorry before you go you've got meetings scheduled or to be scheduled with each of us and

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We're part of that input process right at the front end.

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Yep, yep, yep.

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We're just getting going like literally today.

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This is the kickoff, right?

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So we've got a lot of work ahead of us, but we look forward.

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Thank you.

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Thanks to all of you.

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I look forward to seeing you around here.

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Appreciate you coming out tonight.

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I'm going to move on.

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I called Rip a minute or two early, but now's your time,

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Rip.

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Love the green.

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They don't theme.

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Going to simply introduce the barge team.

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They're going to go through the presentation

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and answer questions and get your feedback so that we can move this plan forward.

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Welcome back.

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We have no sound on our side.

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I think that's because we're just being quiet.

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Bear with us and then we're working on the presentation. Good evening,

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Mr. Mayor.

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Council, thank you for having us here again this evening and inviting us to share our ideas with you.

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We are here to discuss and present the concepts

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that's for the Tucker Town Green.

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I am Reagan Carr.

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I'm a Senior Landscape Architect with Barge Design.

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And I'm here with my colleague, Laura Bradford.

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She is a Landscape Architect Associate with our firm.

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And she and I have been working together

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to develop the concepts for this plan.

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And tonight we're going to tag team on the presentation.

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So

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we do have a brief agenda.

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We already went through introductions.

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And so basically, we want to just kind of want

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to run through a project update to bring you up to date

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what has been done on the project thus far and then we're going to run through some of the

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things that we learned from the last couple of meetings information that we gained from

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the public meeting that we had and as well as the council meeting that we had with y'all.

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Then we're going to run into, run over our concepts and we'll go over those each and hopefully

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by the end of the evening we'll be able to settle on a consistence of one concept or bits and

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pieces of concepts that y'all might want for us to further develop into a master plan.

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So where are we right now?

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As you can see, this is the existing site, and it's roughly two acres, as y'all are familiar

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with it.

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Railroad Avenue and CSX are to the southern part or the south, the lower part of the site.

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Main street is over to the east, and then second avenue is to the west.

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We have a whole list of things that we have already done.

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We have done a site survey.

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At the last meeting we saw that we did a site analysis based on our site visit that we had done with city officials as well as numerous site visits that we had conducted ourselves.

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We have, Lauren, I went out and went out and visited several parks that were put together

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from a list that you all had asked us to go visit, put a video walkthrough together, came

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back, presented that with y'all.

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And then, you can see this side analysis that we had done, and then these, from the meeting

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that we just recently had last month, I believe, may have been a month before, we put together

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a series of graphics that illustrate the top elements that were

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listed based on the public input as well as your input. So that first table at

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the top because it's a little bit difficult to read and I can't see it even with

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my glasses on. So I'm just going to let you know what came out of it. For the

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first table where the top desired park elements express verbally during the

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public input meeting. So from the upper right, making sure that's the same

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the blue square, the element listed in the blue was a linear space or gazebo for vendors,

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food trucks, and restaurants. The orange, as you come down clockwise, were requests for

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playgrounds. The gray was a restroom building. The yellow was live music. The blue again,

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public art, green, a stage. The dark blue was a connection to the existing path that's

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currently being constructed and finished out, then the dark orange there was

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requests for lighting and then finally the dark green was for shade. You go to

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the next table over that second one was based on the top desired park

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elements from comment cards. Now they're similar because we have the same

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people the meeting. They may have been a little remiss to state them verbally and so

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we took the comment cards. So you're gonna see a lot of the same type of things but

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the blue again starting at the top almost for a great lawn that could be used for

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recreation, and then the orange was a great lawn that could be used for performances, so

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those kind of dual uses. The gray was for play space, yellow, restroom, blue, seating

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nooks, green, the permanent covered stage, blue, again, public art, dark orange was the

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stage for music, dark grapes, shadeboss, and then the top of the dark yellow was for shade

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trees. The smaller, the next one down with just the three colors were the biggest concerns

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of people had shared. The blue was for limited parking. There was been some discussion about

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not having enough parking in the area. I know that your economic development folks have done a

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serious study on that in the last couple of months over the year and have put together a pretty

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comprehensive look at how that might be rectified over the next few years. And one of them in particular

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dealt with a short-term resolve at Railroad Avenue. And we have incorporated something

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that would fit that bill in our concepts, which we'll see in a few minutes.

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The next one was potential one-way, and we had discussed about potentially changing the

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alignment or the route of railroad avenue to bring it down to one-way, taking it from

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Main Street and then having it going one-way to West and then coming out on second avenue.

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That was a big proponent.

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We had several comments that were a lot of people thought that would be a good idea.

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be easier to shut down the road itself for bigger events, food trucks, shuttle, drop-off pick-up,

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or even port-a-lay locations during big events.

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And then finally, in the gray, there was some

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discussion about having water feature. Now we got mixed messages on that. Some people were very

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for an interactive fountain. Others were not so much, but yes, we need to have it as long as it's not

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a type of water feature and so we've I think we picked up most of these

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comments in the concepts which you'll see here in a bit and finally that fourth

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table.

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Elements that we saw or heard from y'all at the last meeting. And that was, again, blue, starting in the upper right there, bench swings, and then the orange picnic areas, gray was a restroom, yellow was a water feature, preferably interactive, blue was a shade boss, and then finally the shade trees. So shade in such a large open space was was a key component.

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So concept review. We took the information that we got from both the public and y'all and we brought them back to the office. And we had a little

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a bit of a design charrette.

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And we developed three different concepts

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based on what we heard from y'all.

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And one of the things to keep in mind,

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as we're going through them,

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is you don't have to settle on just one concept.

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It's oftentimes it's bits and pieces of them.

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We bring them together to make a hybrid

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before we move to master plan.

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So that's perfectly acceptable.

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It's been done hundreds of times,

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and we've done it ourselves.

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So some of the things that we should mention,

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the concept similarities,

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I already mentioned reconfiguring Railroad Avenue into one way, all the concepts show that.

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We've envisioned Railroad Avenue being as a potential for blocked off for festivals, as

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I mentioned, utilize food trucks, shuttle drop off, portally, site events.

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00:31:15,860 --> 00:31:19,960
It does, as I mentioned, address a parking issue.

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On each of the concepts, we have between 45 and 50 parking spaces, and that was in a short

401
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:31,320
term, short-term solution to parking in the downtown area.

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And then each concept provides a connection to your existing path that's currently being

403
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:37,740
constructed and finished up.

404
00:31:38,220 --> 00:31:43,620
It provides an opportunity for stormwater management underneath both the lawn areas and along

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the edges.

406
00:31:44,740 --> 00:31:47,600
I know there isn't an issue along railroad avenue.

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So we do have ideas in mind that they have not been fully developed at the concept level,

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but as we move forward those will be remedied.

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Also, each of them illustrates the desired park elements

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that we just reviewed and finally each one

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provides a restroom facility.

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So I'm going to turn this over to Laura,

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just one last brief thing.

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This is the base information that we received.

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We do have the survey information with the path

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overlaid on top of it so that we could tie everything back in.

417
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So this first concept is called R

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&D.

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it uses a series of concentric circles to form the different areas of the park with each

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arc representing a different area.

421
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Okay, so you enter and through the park from a series of wide concrete steps down into

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a versatile, flexible, plaza space with a shade box, then the knife's arc is movable seating.

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I see this being an area where people are hanging out when nothing's going on, but also

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is something where you know there's an armors market or benders or whatever they

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could set up in not space. Then the next arc is the art walk and this would have

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sculpture bases and those could either be permanent or rotating just kind of

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whatever the city decides works best with their art program. So the not space

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moves through this half semi-circle of trees and down into this lawn area. That's anchored

429
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,580
by the stage in the southern central area of the park. In the lawn area, when there's

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no performances going on, could easily be a recreation lawn. It's about 0.4 acres, so it's

431
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a pretty decent sized open space. So moving across the park, he moved out to the trees and

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Oh, the trees would have about, I'm thinking tall trees with a 10 foot clearance, so when you're sitting in that space you can still see out what's going on in the rest of the park and you can still see in to what's going on on the lawn.

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So then, excuse me, moving to the western edge of the park, you have another flexible seating area, movable seats, a restroom building, and then this is where I put the interactive fountain.

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and so I'm envisioning parents coming having, you know, little picnics or having lunch with

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their kids or sitting there watching their kids play in the fountain and then beyond that

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is a play area in the purple and it has a concrete seat wall around it so you keep the kids

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contained, they're not running out into the street, they're not running out into the water

438
00:34:39,100 --> 00:34:44,700
feature and then on the western and northern edge of the park is going to be heavily

439
00:34:44,700 --> 00:34:51,740
vegetated just to provide visual interest, a noise buffer, and then similarly on the south

440
00:34:51,740 --> 00:34:57,660
edge of the park, this would be heavily densely vegetated with evergreen vegetation, just to

441
00:34:57,660 --> 00:35:03,120
help provide some sound buffer from the trains coming through when there's performances going on.

442
00:35:03,820 --> 00:35:12,140
And then these linear arbor's, they also could be set up for different vendors, or it could be just

443
00:35:12,140 --> 00:35:16,420
simply having benches underneath. I know that was something that we talked about

444
00:35:16,420 --> 00:35:20,760
you guys wanting. And then as Reagan said, we all wrote Avenue this one way and

445
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:25,980
there's about 48 10-foot wide head and parking spaces in this design.

446
00:35:32,930 --> 00:35:34,130
Oh yeah. So

447
00:35:34,130 --> 00:35:39,890
these are some of the precedent images for this concept. So the stage area which

448
00:35:39,890 --> 00:35:43,990
I'm envisioning to be permanent. But like we said, you know, you can take what you

449
00:35:43,990 --> 00:35:50,410
want and leave what you don't want. So it could be just a space for a stage, a temporary

450
00:35:50,410 --> 00:35:56,150
stage. This is kind of what I was thinking for the the boss, the shade boss with

451
00:35:56,150 --> 00:36:01,190
movable seats, interactive fountain, the plate area, you know, just having really

452
00:36:01,190 --> 00:36:07,410
fun, vibrant colors, more modern-style play structures, the artwork, just

453
00:36:07,410 --> 00:36:13,550
having really cool interesting pieces out there for the public to enjoy.

454
00:36:13,550 --> 00:36:18,290
and then just another image of some shape, the shade boss.

455
00:36:21,570 --> 00:36:26,290
Okay, so in summary, concept one has a large line to accommodate performances

456
00:36:26,290 --> 00:36:28,450
at the stage with evergreen vegetation.

457
00:36:28,450 --> 00:36:30,550
She creates a noise buffer from the train.

458
00:36:32,490 --> 00:36:36,650
Performance areas visually and spatially defined by the tree arc.

459
00:36:38,130 --> 00:36:41,850
The east side of the park is geared more towards adults with arts and sculpture.

460
00:36:41,850 --> 00:36:48,090
feeding areas, shade, boss, and tree plows in the terrace steps. While the west side of the park is more

461
00:36:48,090 --> 00:36:52,950
geared towards children or kids at heart, with the interactive fountain in the play area,

462
00:36:53,570 --> 00:36:59,110
and the new and enhanced vegetation around the western northern edges to create, to help create,

463
00:36:59,310 --> 00:37:06,790
which is to create not great, a noise buffer and provide shade and then a linear arbor to help kind of define

464
00:37:06,790 --> 00:37:09,230
that southern edge of the park from the parking area.

465
00:37:09,230 --> 00:37:10,110
Do

466
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,740
you want to pause for questions about that or do you all like to get all the way through?

467
00:37:16,260 --> 00:37:16,380
The

468
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,500
second concept that we're calling is its festival walk.

469
00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:28,500
And this one is more, it's geared towards a community and potential for festivals.

470
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,420
The concept kind of shows an angle parking.

471
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,000
Well, it doesn't kind of, it does.

472
00:37:33,260 --> 00:37:38,960
It shows angle parking, 45 degrees, roughly 42-foot wide parking spaces.

473
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,020
It shows the island zero, some existing power poles there.

474
00:37:42,020 --> 00:37:46,280
So, there's the potential that those may or may not need to be relocated.

475
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:48,920
So, we've accommodated for that.

476
00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:54,400
The main feature of this concept is the main spine that runs through it.

477
00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:56,180
It's calling it a market walk.

478
00:37:56,620 --> 00:38:02,240
It's a 12-foot wide concrete walk that would allow vendors to set up on either side

479
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:06,140
so that you could have this whole market spine walking through or

480
00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:08,320
located through your park.

481
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:15,900
It can also be used for, you know, just displays or even little parades, maybe there's

482
00:38:15,900 --> 00:38:19,540
a staging area, so there's all kinds of things that could happen with that.

483
00:38:20,380 --> 00:38:25,300
This concept provides various entrance, a variety of entrance points into the park.

484
00:38:25,580 --> 00:38:32,700
The one that you see in this upper northeast corner here provides a terraced seating area

485
00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:37,700
right now as the path comes in, there's like a three to four foot drop, and so this makes

486
00:38:37,700 --> 00:38:42,060
that grade by pre-creating a terrorist seating area under the shade of some shade sales there.

487
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:49,880
It is high enough that you can overlook the rest of the park and those shade sales are intended

488
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:54,500
to be cantored back so that the front is a bit higher than the back so you can still see under,

489
00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:57,740
as Laura had mentioned with the trees, the same situation with the shade sales.

490
00:38:58,540 --> 00:39:02,980
It functions as an extension of the path system. It allows for a variety of seating options,

491
00:39:02,980 --> 00:39:08,760
movable tables, seating walls and it steps way down into the park and it

492
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:16,040
provide areas for dining or whatever. The large chase sales, as I mentioned,

493
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,020
create a cooler environment, I mean that's a wide open space as it is now and it

494
00:39:20,020 --> 00:39:24,260
just offers another option as far as shade within the park.

495
00:39:30,700 --> 00:39:31,660
The southern

496
00:39:31,660 --> 00:39:39,460
Plaza area. There is, it can function as a stage during musical events. There's a opening

497
00:39:39,460 --> 00:39:44,400
up at the front where you can see where it's at stage. Or it can just be an inviting entry

498
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:49,300
for other days when there's not something event-wise happening in the park. You can have

499
00:39:49,300 --> 00:39:55,100
that function as just like another cool spot because of the the arbor structure in there.

500
00:39:55,260 --> 00:39:58,900
We've also located kind of a fountain. It can serve as either an interactive fountain or

501
00:39:58,900 --> 00:40:02,220
just a water feature. Also it has the option to be flip-flop right now and

502
00:40:02,220 --> 00:40:06,660
showing a larger pool on the inside but if it's not going to be interactive or

503
00:40:06,660 --> 00:40:10,260
whatever you could flip it and just kind of have a small trough happening

504
00:40:10,260 --> 00:40:15,660
there which is some some white noise to kind of what deaden the sound of the

505
00:40:15,660 --> 00:40:19,360
train not that you know the train's not loud and then just landscape behind it

506
00:40:20,060 --> 00:40:24,820
so there's just some versatility going on there in addition to the to the

507
00:40:24,820 --> 00:40:29,560
The harbor, we've included some bench swings that would hang there so you can sit either

508
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:31,940
facing the plaza or looking out onto the lawn.

509
00:40:32,700 --> 00:40:37,300
The northwest corner up here off the second avenue, there's nothing that really announces

510
00:40:37,300 --> 00:40:41,460
that there's a park happening there and so we've included a little entry there and it has

511
00:40:41,460 --> 00:40:45,820
a plaza along the second avenue with the stairs that's kind of stepped down into it with

512
00:40:45,820 --> 00:40:51,880
another plaza at the bottom that serves as a terminus to the spine trail, spine path.

513
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,200
And then in the

514
00:40:58,050 --> 00:41:02,010
entry to the north, sorry I got lost there for a second, the entry to

515
00:41:02,010 --> 00:41:06,370
the north coming off the path, you meet great right out about this location as if you

516
00:41:06,370 --> 00:41:11,210
all have walked out, had the opportunity to walk out there, and this just kind of reinforces

517
00:41:11,210 --> 00:41:18,350
this axial relationship from this plaza area down to the stage area, and then you would walk

518
00:41:18,350 --> 00:41:22,670
through an order bird to, again, announce that you're entering into park and it becomes

519
00:41:22,670 --> 00:41:23,450
a special place.

520
00:41:26,030 --> 00:41:30,990
The spectator lawn that is all through here is roughly three-quarters of an acre.

521
00:41:32,610 --> 00:41:38,730
Based on where the stage is located, there should be ample opportunity to see from any direction

522
00:41:38,730 --> 00:41:44,510
as you sit on the park. The three-quarter of an acre is a little bit larger than one of the projects

523
00:41:44,510 --> 00:41:48,530
that we have in Sandy Springs where they use that for their festival lawn, their event lawn.

524
00:41:48,530 --> 00:41:54,590
It's about half an acre and during their events they can just moderate events they can see between 3 and 4,000 people on

525
00:41:56,130 --> 00:42:00,010
Larger events and say do you have like another half acre of hard how would escape around it?

526
00:42:00,050 --> 00:42:02,250
They can fit up to 8,000 people within that park

527
00:42:02,690 --> 00:42:06,970
So there is a lot of opportunity to have things happening within this town green

528
00:42:07,750 --> 00:42:11,910
We've cited a restroom building, which is typical in each of the concepts that you that you'll see

529
00:42:12,570 --> 00:42:15,970
This one I've located over here in the South East corner

530
00:42:15,970 --> 00:42:25,910
25 by 25 so you get probably two regular stalls in an accessible stall for men and women

531
00:42:25,910 --> 00:42:31,370
or if you wanted to go gender neutral, that's an opportunity as well.

532
00:42:33,050 --> 00:42:33,310
Let's see.

533
00:42:33,950 --> 00:42:41,570
We've also included a 12,000 square foot playground at this western edge.

534
00:42:41,570 --> 00:42:47,130
And the intent here is for it to be just a single piece of playground equipment.

535
00:42:47,130 --> 00:42:50,830
If you're familiar with the Berliner type playground, something that is sculptural, but

536
00:42:50,830 --> 00:42:54,390
provides a lot of play value, that's what we envision for that location.

537
00:42:55,310 --> 00:42:59,290
And then finally to help connect all the elements of the park and kind of create a continuous

538
00:42:59,290 --> 00:43:02,330
loop so you could do circuits if you wanted during lunchtime or whatever.

539
00:43:02,790 --> 00:43:08,850
We have a eight foot wide garden walk that kind of meanders through linking all the elements.

540
00:43:08,850 --> 00:43:14,910
as I mentioned, a landscape to bring color and soften the edges and also add some noise

541
00:43:14,910 --> 00:43:21,310
abatement along the edges. Each of those landscape beds can also be used for water infiltration,

542
00:43:21,670 --> 00:43:26,330
as the lawn also can be used as infiltration or storage.

543
00:43:28,530 --> 00:43:30,730
As Laura had, I also had precedent

544
00:43:30,730 --> 00:43:35,210
images. These are just kind of some of the things that you can see, the market walk, whoops,

545
00:43:35,210 --> 00:43:41,510
the shade structures, interactive fountain or just a trough type fountain, this is the

546
00:43:41,510 --> 00:43:45,890
Berliner type play feature that I was speaking of, there you have a whole selection of interesting

547
00:43:45,890 --> 00:43:49,230
things, and then of course the garden work that I meant to mention.

548
00:43:50,890 --> 00:43:55,570
Again summary geared towards the community, there's a wide central spine for vendor displays,

549
00:43:56,210 --> 00:44:00,350
provides an expansion of the existing path and connection to business district via the

550
00:44:00,350 --> 00:44:03,850
Here's Plaza, as a versatile temporary stage at the park entrance.

551
00:44:04,450 --> 00:44:07,910
There's also a versatile spectator lawn that includes stormwater management.

552
00:44:08,470 --> 00:44:12,050
The garden walks off and so hard edge is agent water infiltration and noise abatement

553
00:44:12,050 --> 00:44:15,950
and then the sculptural plague equipment with a lot of plague value.

554
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,460
Okay, so our final concept is called Art Pavilion.

555
00:44:25,580 --> 00:44:29,140
And the main feature of this concept is a large overhead shade structure,

556
00:44:33,540 --> 00:44:36,280
so here, so it's

557
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,580
It's about 3,200 square feet, so it's very large.

558
00:44:38,580 --> 00:44:41,720
It would definitely be a kind of defining piece in the park.

559
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:49,460
It could either be an arbor, it could be shade sales, whatever would work best in that

560
00:44:49,460 --> 00:44:54,720
space, but it does provide a lot of flexibility under and around it.

561
00:44:54,720 --> 00:44:58,640
and so you could have markets, dining areas, events.

562
00:45:00,270 --> 00:45:07,870
And there's also a space for public art under the structure. So this plaza is accessible from

563
00:45:07,870 --> 00:45:14,170
the new path on the western edge as well as the northern edge. There's a connection here.

564
00:45:15,470 --> 00:45:16,990
And over here,

565
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:25,480
the shade structure is surrounded by vegetation, shade trees, flowering trees,

566
00:45:26,180 --> 00:45:33,460
and then these two playpods with movable seating and then the rest of the buildings.

567
00:45:33,820 --> 00:45:38,740
Same size as the one Reagan talked about about 25 by 25.

568
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,440
So let's see.

569
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:48,520
Then there's space here in the central area of the park for a temporary or permanent stage.

570
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:57,620
And it's accessed from the path by another axial path from the north of the park to the south of the park.

571
00:46:03,180 --> 00:46:08,140
The western side of the park is occupied by a large event lawn surrounded by shade trees again.

572
00:46:09,060 --> 00:46:16,380
There are small secondary paths coming off of the new path with seating knicks and then there's another play pod.

573
00:46:16,380 --> 00:46:23,760
And then again, dense vegetation on that western edge, which will provide shade from the

574
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:30,660
setting sun, as well as provide a visual and spatial buffer for the park on the northern

575
00:46:30,660 --> 00:46:31,060
end.

576
00:46:34,580 --> 00:46:40,200
And then there is a stairway as well on this one coming down from second avenue into kind

577
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:44,460
of a landing plaza area going on to the path.

578
00:46:44,460 --> 00:46:45,260
And

579
00:46:48,500 --> 00:46:56,640
so some preset images for this concept, you know, really fun, vibrant are a large event

580
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:57,120
one.

581
00:46:58,020 --> 00:47:01,140
You know, we're kind of envisioning something like this for that shade structure.

582
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:06,600
I mean, it might be more of a dynamic shape, but that kind of scale.

583
00:47:08,260 --> 00:47:16,340
You know, you have fun play structures like this in those play pods, temporary sage, and then just a fun image

584
00:47:16,340 --> 00:47:23,060
of how that main plaza area might look with the vegetation kind of meandering around it.

585
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:32,800
So in summary, Concept 3 is rich in the art focus as large art dining pavilion as the park center,

586
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:39,700
flexibility with the stage, a versatile event one, multiple play areas disperse throughout the park,

587
00:47:40,100 --> 00:47:46,240
flexible seating areas, and enhancement vegetation to provide noise abatement and visual interest.

588
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:50,400
Those are our concepts.

589
00:47:52,700 --> 00:47:57,360
That is the end of our our concept presentation. So we can take questions

590
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:58,100
We

591
00:48:01,430 --> 00:48:06,930
can tell us go ahead with this one. Yeah, what you like to end up with is some feedback from us that helps you to the next step, right?

592
00:48:09,170 --> 00:48:11,030
You have a question of thought?

593
00:48:11,250 --> 00:48:16,290
A little question. We're out ahead. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. You have a ability to switch back and forth between those

594
00:48:16,290 --> 00:48:18,470
pretty quickly because I have some questions.

595
00:48:19,370 --> 00:48:21,390
Should we start as everyone should start with?

596
00:48:23,210 --> 00:48:25,250
The first one would be okay.

597
00:48:25,610 --> 00:48:33,910
would work. So I guess actually for all three of them and thank you for pulling all this together

598
00:48:33,910 --> 00:48:38,550
and hosting the public community meetings. I think we received some really good feedback.

599
00:48:39,550 --> 00:48:44,970
I'm just curious in each one of these how large the stage is,

600
00:48:45,550 --> 00:48:52,090
concept wise, when it comes, you know, how many musicians can stand up on that stage and, you know,

601
00:48:52,090 --> 00:48:58,010
What's the flexibility in hosting at, you know, we host the events here in Tucker, Tucker.

602
00:48:59,410 --> 00:49:03,190
So the stage in this concept is a typical band and

603
00:49:14,460 --> 00:49:14,620
stuff.

604
00:49:16,530 --> 00:49:18,410
Square footage wise, but I mean,

605
00:49:24,540 --> 00:49:24,740
great.

606
00:49:25,300 --> 00:49:31,860
And then when it comes to the restrooms, you've located them in each one in different places.

607
00:49:32,420 --> 00:49:40,380
Is there any reasoning for placing them just for options or should they be closer to one place in the park?

608
00:49:40,380 --> 00:49:46,220
versus another ideal well we we place them in different places just to show

609
00:49:46,220 --> 00:49:50,160
well variation but also I mean you what you would like to do is keep them

610
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:54,600
based on on septid issues you know everybody has a reason to go to the rest

611
00:49:54,600 --> 00:50:00,020
room and it's a safety thing so in this one for example we're located near the

612
00:50:00,020 --> 00:50:07,780
playground for for parents yes but in that in this case the doors would be faced

613
00:50:07,780 --> 00:50:11,300
towards the parking lot so you have that passive policing so there's not you know

614
00:50:11,300 --> 00:50:14,560
someone creepy person kind of hanging around with when you have a playground and

615
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:18,640
then you have a restroom and the second concept is over in the southeast

616
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:24,340
corner situated away from the playground it's so proximate but again it's it's on

617
00:50:24,340 --> 00:50:27,660
the on the parking lot so that there is that passive policing I guess it's the

618
00:50:27,660 --> 00:50:32,220
same on the third concept over just moved over a bit more so but I think we could

619
00:50:32,220 --> 00:50:33,220
we could accommodate it.

620
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:34,580
Pretty much.

621
00:50:34,860 --> 00:50:35,440
All right.

622
00:50:35,620 --> 00:50:36,000
Thank you.

623
00:50:36,260 --> 00:50:43,240
And then when it comes to the water feature in Concept 1 and 2,

624
00:50:43,900 --> 00:50:48,060
they are play features for kids to play in the water that

625
00:50:48,060 --> 00:50:49,240
are fountains.

626
00:50:49,500 --> 00:50:50,080
Is that correct?

627
00:50:50,620 --> 00:50:52,140
Or did I'm...

628
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:54,040
Okay.

629
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,700
And then in Concept 2, you have the option.

630
00:50:57,780 --> 00:51:00,160
It could be interactive, or it could just be...

631
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:00,860
There's a water feature.

632
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:02,300
It could just be...

633
00:51:02,300 --> 00:51:02,540
Okay.

634
00:51:02,540 --> 00:51:03,500
just something to make noise.

635
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:14,140
I'm going to start with water feature and backwards. I think,

636
00:51:16,180 --> 00:51:23,620
so mom of three small kids, I get why having an interactive water feature is appealing. Also don't

637
00:51:24,140 --> 00:51:29,760
personally care if I have it or not, but I would like to see more of the passive water feature

638
00:51:30,460 --> 00:51:35,920
if it's possible more throughout the park. So not just in one place where you would have to travel

639
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:43,060
do it, but where it's providing that ambient experience, micro-environment, while you're

640
00:51:43,060 --> 00:51:47,860
kind of in the park and spaces. So, I just, even if there was one other one, or, I don't

641
00:51:47,860 --> 00:51:51,500
know, in some other other place, that would, I think, something that I would enjoy. I really

642
00:51:51,500 --> 00:51:57,900
liked the site visit y'all did, where they kind of had, like, runners of water features,

643
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:03,480
like, up on a, oh, yeah, remember which one that was. So, that, that's just some feedback

644
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:11,140
back on that for me personally, moving, staying with the mom, the mom side of things, I also

645
00:52:11,140 --> 00:52:16,980
think that I'd love to see those play areas be more passive play, because I will tell

646
00:52:16,980 --> 00:52:21,820
you that as fun as playgrounds are, if there are rocks for my kids to climb on, that's

647
00:52:21,820 --> 00:52:22,800
what they're climbing on, right?

648
00:52:23,020 --> 00:52:27,080
And so, when you see swing sets, only a few kids can swing on those, so it doesn't really

649
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:29,640
like open it up to multiple people in the community.

650
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:36,920
You know, Piedmont Park has that one kind of pocket playground that's really art sculptures that kids can climb on.

651
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:41,780
They're painted bright colors, but they look art, but they're not sort of what you traditionally think of.

652
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:44,540
And the types of playgrounds that we have in other parts of our community.

653
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:49,000
So I like the idea of because I know that that was something from the public input meeting.

654
00:52:49,140 --> 00:52:51,600
There are people on kind of both sides like full on playground.

655
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:53,760
No, we don't want kids at all.

656
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,800
And I think maybe a happy medium is finding a way to make those be like built-in, like,

657
00:52:58,980 --> 00:53:02,000
to topographically into the space.

658
00:53:02,620 --> 00:53:05,680
It's just something I'd throw out there as I think would be interesting.

659
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:08,060
And then my last question is about the bathroom as well.

660
00:53:09,300 --> 00:53:15,220
And I'm a North Lake CID plan that they had kind of explored had a built-in restroom

661
00:53:15,220 --> 00:53:19,920
so it kind of had a way to meet the restroom piece,

662
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,700
but you also were still using some of the, again, the topography and built-in.

663
00:53:22,700 --> 00:53:24,600
And I think, again, at Piedmont Park in that same area,

664
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:26,120
they've got something like that.

665
00:53:27,180 --> 00:53:29,700
I don't know if there's any way to incorporate that,

666
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:32,660
but I think it's an interesting idea.

667
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:34,960
I know that there's probably like logistical reasons

668
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:37,960
why not, too, but if there's a way to maximize height space,

669
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:39,360
I think that's interesting.

670
00:53:41,650 --> 00:53:44,170
But the last thing I wanted to say is I just really appreciate

671
00:53:44,170 --> 00:53:47,650
that you have thought about, although I think not on the first one,

672
00:53:49,050 --> 00:53:51,550
the different points of entry to the park.

673
00:53:51,550 --> 00:53:53,650
So it's not like, oh, there's one entrance to the park.

674
00:53:53,650 --> 00:53:58,950
So that when you're coming in different places, I like that you have that north-western corner entry point

675
00:53:58,950 --> 00:54:04,850
I like that you're thinking about from the path or trail coming in. What does it look like that way?

676
00:54:04,970 --> 00:54:08,230
Not just what does it look like from the way that sort of we're currently using so

677
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:18,640
Thank you for your work. I'm going to agree with you on the water features the interactive fountain

678
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,460
gives me heart palpitations not that I don't like little children

679
00:54:21,460 --> 00:54:25,080
This is not a place for preschool buses to pull up and have a play day

680
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:32,240
We have areas for that, so I know Swanee gets like 10 preschool buses and they're having a lot of fun.

681
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:35,960
This is an economic development driver in our downtown.

682
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:42,320
So we want to make sure it is welcoming in that aspect, but you know, it's not an amusement park.

683
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:43,880
So I like that.

684
00:54:44,300 --> 00:54:49,040
And then I agree with you also on the play features, right?

685
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:53,360
like fun interesting play features something artsy but we already have I

686
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:58,020
think what 10 playgrounds across the city as well so let's make it unique and

687
00:54:58,020 --> 00:55:05,400
different and maybe like a destination. And then just last number two I just

688
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:09,240
felt like there was a nice flow like a welcoming flow to that so if we had

689
00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:13,160
seniors over there and they wanted to walk around you know the smaller portion of

690
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:17,300
that path you had the shade there it was like it was a little bit more

691
00:55:17,300 --> 00:55:23,100
accessible from different angles yeah and then also I am concerned a little bit

692
00:55:23,100 --> 00:55:28,800
about maybe maybe some more seating features you know I don't know people could

693
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:32,420
walk off of them but you know in New York City and Bryant Park right it can be

694
00:55:32,420 --> 00:55:36,540
totally clear or during the day they put out some tables and chairs and in some

695
00:55:36,540 --> 00:55:40,020
little seating so people can come up or lunch you know then they they take

696
00:55:40,020 --> 00:55:45,320
them out at night or or whatever so but I thought that flowed really nicely and

697
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:47,540
And it was accessible to a lot of different people.

698
00:55:48,980 --> 00:55:51,980
Yeah, I just want to agree with Anne since she brought that out because I forgot.

699
00:55:52,300 --> 00:55:56,180
I do like that there's multiple walkways and pathways on that one.

700
00:55:57,460 --> 00:55:58,880
Well, I see you got a hand up.

701
00:56:00,420 --> 00:56:06,160
I did like on the first one that they had seating because there's a lot of restaurants

702
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:08,500
that people are going to walk off of Main Street 2.

703
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:13,140
I like the concept of 2 because you can kind of walk through it and I do like that walkability.

704
00:56:13,860 --> 00:56:17,060
I'm wondering if there's something that you can kind of do in a concept that may be

705
00:56:17,060 --> 00:56:18,560
combine those two things.

706
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:26,140
The thing that I didn't care for very much on one and two is we need more trees on

707
00:56:26,140 --> 00:56:30,840
the railroad side just to block that noise as it comes through because if you're sitting

708
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:35,400
down there and that train comes through, they're going to blow the horn and it's a little frightening

709
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,620
so if we slow that noise down a little that's fine.

710
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:48,820
I'm going to agree with Alexis on the water features and the play structures, so let's

711
00:56:48,820 --> 00:56:52,140
kind of keep it interactive and fun for everyone.

712
00:56:53,060 --> 00:56:57,380
But I also like what Ann had to say for the connectivity on that.

713
00:56:58,860 --> 00:57:03,720
So I don't know if there's some kind of hybrid that you can do, that kind of maybe has that

714
00:57:03,720 --> 00:57:07,260
path through it, maybe that's something that you add to the other, but I really think

715
00:57:07,260 --> 00:57:09,660
that seating is super important for that area.

716
00:57:10,300 --> 00:57:12,860
I think it will really bring in a lot more people

717
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:14,780
in downtown to have lunch.

718
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:21,640
Roger's menu, you got some comments to add?

719
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:27,500
I actually, Noel kind of brought it all together for me,

720
00:57:27,820 --> 00:57:34,500
but I agree with Alexis that the Tucker North Lake CID

721
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,320
had that design with the restroom built

722
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:39,720
into the topography, such that it's not

723
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:45,820
not that much of a standalone feature and I thought that could be something positive

724
00:57:45,820 --> 00:57:48,520
in any of these designs other than the third one.

725
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:50,560
That's it.

726
00:57:52,980 --> 00:57:56,440
I had some questions just to understand what you're showing us.

727
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:00,020
Can you go back to the first iteration?

728
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:08,060
So on the far eastern side that's right up against the trailer, are those concrete steps

729
00:58:08,060 --> 00:58:09,480
down that we're seeing there?

730
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,980
and are they shallow? Is this like a six or eight inch kind of set them?

731
00:58:12,980 --> 00:58:18,300
Yeah, about six inches but they're 12 inches wide.

732
00:58:19,380 --> 00:58:21,380
12, sorry, 12 feet wide.

733
00:58:21,900 --> 00:58:25,160
So they would be like you could hang out there, meet your friends.

734
00:58:25,380 --> 00:58:26,520
You could sit there and have lunch.

735
00:58:27,060 --> 00:58:28,040
No, no, you could put it there.

736
00:58:31,100 --> 00:58:32,740
It's like a tourist seating area.

737
00:58:33,140 --> 00:58:36,140
Right, so you come down into the level where those trees are.

738
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,880
And then another step down to that gray arc.

739
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:42,140
No, so I imagine not being flat.

740
00:58:42,420 --> 00:58:43,120
That would all be one.

741
00:58:43,180 --> 00:58:48,360
Yeah, and then the lawn area would almost be cold, similar to the topography out there

742
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:53,500
now, where it slightly dips down in the middle, so that the stage is sitting at the lowest

743
00:58:53,500 --> 00:58:53,840
point.

744
00:58:55,160 --> 00:59:00,380
So you've got three, twelve foot wide step down, but then all, both of those arcs, section

745
00:59:00,380 --> 00:59:02,100
were in the top right where the trees are.

746
00:59:02,180 --> 00:59:06,420
That's all on a single level, there's no step downs from one to the other.

747
00:59:06,620 --> 00:59:07,560
So it all be accessible.

748
00:59:07,780 --> 00:59:08,960
I mean, it might slightly slow.

749
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:20,200
Well, I feel that sort of community gathering area, but there's no other than some trees which might provide shade in 10 years.

750
00:59:20,860 --> 00:59:29,840
There's this scorching hot out there, and in all of these, we really got to think about shade in the short term, you know, to draw people and make a call.

751
00:59:34,330 --> 00:59:39,310
I'll echo the comments, I'm not sure if I'm saying just the same thing, but about playgrounds or play areas.

752
00:59:41,410 --> 00:59:46,890
I've visited Peachtree Corner's part, which is actually just being finished, there's some new stuff being added.

753
00:59:46,890 --> 00:59:53,910
So they have one area that's like the biggest craziest playground equipment kind of zone that I've seen

754
00:59:53,910 --> 00:59:58,310
But they had another couple of areas where it's just sort of undulating ground, right?

755
00:59:58,450 --> 00:59:58,990
It's rolling

756
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:18,080
And kids just get up in a ball and roll down. And that's the fun of saying it did all day. So they'll do it over and over. So that kind of play appeals to me more than a lot of big, you know, visually, I'm going to say, God, I know there's different types of guys. But I like that sort of play in this play

757
01:00:22,690 --> 01:00:33,950
was hoping to see some version of the restroom built into the topography as well. I don't quite have a vision for it. But I think we're talking about that Northeast top right corner.

758
01:00:34,690 --> 01:00:45,970
In some way, it would give us some way to increase the land space, right, if the top was a plaza or a gathering space or an overlook of some kind.

759
01:00:46,370 --> 01:00:52,070
It saves the place, you know, it increases the amount of ground space that we can use and

760
01:00:52,930 --> 01:00:58,130
believes this doesn't have a separate building somewhere else, so it puts up some possibilities.

761
01:00:58,970 --> 01:01:04,650
I'll say about water. I also like the idea. I'm kind of ambivalent about interactive.

762
01:01:06,190 --> 01:01:12,830
When we say that, I'm taking splash pad. Maybe that's an old term. I can see the appeal.

763
01:01:13,130 --> 01:01:17,730
If we're going to have it, I'd like it to be relatively small, but I'd like to see more water

764
01:01:17,730 --> 01:01:23,290
throughout as well so that you get the sound, the cooling aspects, some sense that you're

765
01:01:23,290 --> 01:01:26,370
in a place that's got motion in it.

766
01:01:28,550 --> 01:01:36,890
I really think, maybe just because I've been out there this summer, it's barren and we got to take the edge off of that.

767
01:01:39,730 --> 01:01:44,090
I guess that's the comments that kind of front of mind. What else?

768
01:01:44,090 --> 01:01:47,470
Karen, you've heard all this other, what have you been inspired about?

769
01:01:48,170 --> 01:01:57,070
I'd actually like to see the second one kind of have an incorporation maybe the shade area

770
01:01:57,070 --> 01:02:02,770
be even larger there, but I like the walkway and the green because it is going to be hot.

771
01:02:03,350 --> 01:02:08,510
And I also think we could put more water features in there, but I don't really think we need

772
01:02:08,510 --> 01:02:12,150
that a play area for families.

773
01:02:12,410 --> 01:02:13,530
I think that we've got plenty.

774
01:02:14,010 --> 01:02:16,290
If we can do play features throughout for kids,

775
01:02:16,510 --> 01:02:18,850
I think that might be the better plan.

776
01:02:20,690 --> 01:02:23,150
And there are so many great play features.

777
01:02:23,670 --> 01:02:25,230
I mean, with the pictures you shared.

778
01:02:25,990 --> 01:02:29,610
And I see them in other parks and kids are all over them.

779
01:02:29,830 --> 01:02:32,210
I mean, we have this, right now on the town green,

780
01:02:32,330 --> 01:02:34,570
we've got this workout fitness thing.

781
01:02:34,570 --> 01:02:36,770
And when we did our Friday night concerts,

782
01:02:36,770 --> 01:02:40,770
the kids were always on it, so we have to incorporate that no matter what.

783
01:02:41,450 --> 01:02:46,170
So, if we could make it all bigger, then we could add, you know, a variety of other things

784
01:02:46,170 --> 01:02:50,810
that would be good additions, but that would mean we'd have to buy property and move

785
01:02:50,810 --> 01:02:57,730
buildings, but they're wonderful concepts, I like them, all three of them, but I like the

786
01:02:57,730 --> 01:03:01,730
green space in the middle one the best, and I think that's almost what everybody's saying

787
01:03:01,730 --> 01:03:05,250
with different other features.

788
01:03:05,250 --> 01:03:08,230
Can I go back and ask a specific question I forgot about parking.

789
01:03:09,550 --> 01:03:16,330
I thought angled parking, if we're going to make it one way, the angled parking seems

790
01:03:16,330 --> 01:03:17,970
like an easy call.

791
01:03:18,430 --> 01:03:20,190
Do we lose spaces with that?

792
01:03:21,090 --> 01:03:26,550
Only because I've made them 10 feet wide and I've included the parking islands.

793
01:03:27,530 --> 01:03:31,690
I mean, what we, what an option what we could do is actually have a landscape strip, oh,

794
01:03:31,770 --> 01:03:31,950
I'm sorry.

795
01:03:31,950 --> 01:03:36,550
We could have a landscape strip between the parking rather than going parking sidewalk.

796
01:03:36,790 --> 01:03:41,590
We could do parking, landscape strip, sidewalk, get more trees in there and then take those

797
01:03:41,590 --> 01:03:42,090
islands out.

798
01:03:42,670 --> 01:03:45,670
You'd still end up with about 45, 48 parking spaces.

799
01:03:48,180 --> 01:03:50,320
Oh, we get some consensus that we want to maximize.

800
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:50,780
Sure.

801
01:03:51,020 --> 01:03:54,900
We don't want to feel like it's a look like a parking lot, but everyone we can get makes

802
01:03:54,900 --> 01:03:55,260
a difference.

803
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:06,540
I know at the public input meeting, I had conversation with some folks privately, but I don't

804
01:04:06,540 --> 01:04:13,640
I don't know if it came across to the whole meeting around what are ways that we could

805
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:15,720
do passive education.

806
01:04:16,140 --> 01:04:20,800
So I think you kind of talked about that maybe with the garden area, but I know that was

807
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:22,380
another feature of the North Lake Planner.

808
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:28,800
They were thinking about, which you kind of have, I think, that second avenue is the middle

809
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:35,860
of the park in some ways, but I think either sort of natural education, what's the opportunity

810
01:04:35,860 --> 01:04:42,120
to do that, again, like placards, not like whatever, or history of Tucker education or

811
01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:50,340
a combination where we're kind of, I think that we are always saying we're a new city

812
01:04:50,340 --> 01:04:52,620
but we're not a new city, like we've been here forever.

813
01:04:53,020 --> 01:04:57,220
So I do think if we're having something that's a centerpiece, finding a way to highlight

814
01:04:57,220 --> 01:05:02,700
some of the history of our community, again, passively, would be an interesting thing to do.

815
01:05:03,620 --> 01:05:08,200
I'm not thinking, like, just so everyone is not thinking, like, giant, person-sized bronze

816
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:12,480
plaques or anything, but it just be something I'd be interested in exploring further.

817
01:05:15,860 --> 01:05:16,580
Or are we helping you?

818
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:21,520
That's all right.

819
01:05:21,860 --> 01:05:22,400
That's all the time.

820
01:05:23,220 --> 01:05:28,780
So, I think what we're hearing, and you can say, no, you're completely wrong, Reagan,

821
01:05:28,940 --> 01:05:29,780
you're just dreaming things.

822
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:37,440
But I'm thinking that what we're hearing is, you like the form of concept two with more

823
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:46,920
more shade, not a specific playground area, just like family playground but more sporadically

824
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:51,140
throughout, more water, more shade, more trees, more parking.

825
01:05:53,020 --> 01:05:58,120
Let's see what else, did I hear that correctly so far, and then look to incorporate,

826
01:06:04,180 --> 01:06:06,700
you

827
01:06:06,700 --> 01:06:09,820
I like their being a set aside play area.

828
01:06:10,460 --> 01:06:12,200
I just don't think it has to be a playground.

829
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:15,600
So what the mayor is talking about,

830
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:19,800
I don't want to lose spaces for families.

831
01:06:20,460 --> 01:06:23,580
I just don't think it needs to be a traditional playground.

832
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:24,080
Right, right.

833
01:06:26,050 --> 01:06:28,510
Yeah, I like those kind of mounds and things like that.

834
01:06:28,630 --> 01:06:31,510
I actually attempted to roll down a hill with my son

835
01:06:31,510 --> 01:06:32,910
and it didn't really hurt.

836
01:06:33,910 --> 01:06:35,670
Or the previous retirement program.

837
01:06:36,250 --> 01:06:41,230
So in this one that the purplish area way out to the west, is it play area?

838
01:06:41,410 --> 01:06:41,930
Play area.

839
01:06:42,330 --> 01:06:43,550
Could be anything.

840
01:06:43,670 --> 01:06:44,110
Could be anything.

841
01:06:47,660 --> 01:06:50,720
I'm sorry. The only thing I didn't hear repeated was seating.

842
01:06:51,620 --> 01:06:52,340
Oh, yes.

843
01:06:52,660 --> 01:06:52,880
Seating.

844
01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:53,360
Yeah.

845
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:54,500
With shades.

846
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:55,340
That's important.

847
01:07:00,930 --> 01:07:02,870
Yeah, I think you can boost shade across the board.

848
01:07:05,040 --> 01:07:05,800
A reference in design.

849
01:07:08,500 --> 01:07:10,000
Tell me just because I'm an ignorant.

850
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:13,020
We built a park and we put trees at it.

851
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:16,820
I guess given enough money, you could put any size tree you want.

852
01:07:16,820 --> 01:07:19,500
Alright, where's the starting phase?

853
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:24,720
We have had, I think the most success that we've had on large trees, we've done this

854
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:30,140
down at Georgia Tech and I believe the largest that they want to transplant, big trees,

855
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:34,820
or 8-inch caliper, that seems to be about the max before they really decline.

856
01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:41,160
Granted, you're going to pay a premium for trees like that, but you have instant landscape

857
01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:45,540
no doubt, because they do have to bring in tree spades and cranes.

858
01:07:45,540 --> 01:07:51,340
It's a tree like that big enough to have a clearing underneath of six or eight feet,

859
01:07:51,340 --> 01:07:52,140
maybe more.

860
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:56,420
So it's useful for shade, you can see under it if there's an event, you can see your

861
01:07:56,420 --> 01:07:59,280
kids across the lake around the lawn.

862
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:08,880
And ideally what you would want to have with trees that large is kind of like a maintenance

863
01:08:10,500 --> 01:08:16,500
program as they get reestablished, just to make sure that they're fertilized, their optimum

864
01:08:16,500 --> 01:08:18,520
type environment for them.

865
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:18,700
And

866
01:08:24,050 --> 01:08:27,850
I've got to tell us that you got enough to go away and put it all together.

867
01:08:27,910 --> 01:08:34,870
I need you to tell me, yes, what we want you to do, head off with those or, yeah, I

868
01:08:34,870 --> 01:08:36,130
need a consensus, that's all.

869
01:08:36,730 --> 01:08:37,370
And we can move forward.

870
01:08:39,060 --> 01:08:43,880
Yeah, I think you're capturing what we've said, you guys nodding along online, I see

871
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:44,500
nodding.

872
01:08:48,990 --> 01:08:53,610
If you think you've got a clear enough idea, I think we're in good shape, or you can ask

873
01:08:53,610 --> 01:08:54,390
us some more questions.

874
01:08:55,210 --> 01:08:56,690
I think we

875
01:09:05,140 --> 01:09:09,100
will work something up and get that to rip and he can share it with you.

876
01:09:09,220 --> 01:09:13,500
Is the stage in this case covered or you've just left it up and we could do whatever?

877
01:09:13,500 --> 01:09:14,400
It could be whatever.

878
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:21,520
I mean, I've left it open so that you can see that there's an opportunity there but I mean

879
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:23,580
that stage structure could be anything.

880
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:28,900
Again, it could be shade sales or it could be a complete roof structure.

881
01:09:29,660 --> 01:09:36,000
but I just wanted to make sure that it was prevalent at the front of that arc so that you could see.

882
01:09:36,460 --> 01:09:41,140
But it might be a flatter arc for a better way of saying.

883
01:09:41,340 --> 01:09:43,020
So it doesn't extend as far into the park.

884
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:47,480
Maybe a little bit of views from the sides of it.

885
01:09:47,740 --> 01:09:47,840
Yes.

886
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:49,960
And big enough to think about

887
01:09:52,390 --> 01:09:52,650
it.

888
01:09:52,650 --> 01:09:53,750
Do you have a...

889
01:09:53,750 --> 01:09:57,450
You've got to be covered either something we can erect for an event or...

890
01:09:58,830 --> 01:10:03,410
Do you have a square footage that you're looking for for a stage area?

891
01:10:06,590 --> 01:10:11,770
I think what you think, what is palatable there with the space is what I think we need

892
01:10:11,770 --> 01:10:12,590
you to tell us.

893
01:10:12,810 --> 01:10:15,250
I mean, it's not, I mean, it's not very-

894
01:10:15,250 --> 01:10:20,150
I think it's not a pretty small one in Norcross, right, it's the first stage area.

895
01:10:20,350 --> 01:10:25,840
We saw a huge one and I don't know the footage, but maybe something.

896
01:10:26,320 --> 01:10:30,420
Why don't we ask our bands that have come and played and set up their own stages, right?

897
01:10:30,420 --> 01:10:34,700
And Virginia happens to be one of those people, yeah.

898
01:10:58,390 --> 01:10:59,030
Thank you.

899
01:11:07,260 --> 01:11:10,500
I'm sorry, we can't do town hall styles.

900
01:11:12,020 --> 01:11:17,460
I know you'll get an opportunity with us afterwards or in breaks or somewhere long

901
01:11:17,460 --> 01:11:19,020
way before we make decisions.

902
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:24,080
That brings us to our third item.

903
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:25,640
Is it going to be you, Tammy?

904
01:11:35,140 --> 01:11:36,420
It's that time of year again.

905
01:11:36,420 --> 01:11:46,080
We need to start thinking about next year, so largely driven by planning zoning cases and

906
01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:57,220
trying to get ahead of that and which brings up the issue when we're going to close City Hall

907
01:11:57,220 --> 01:11:59,600
and observance of holidays.

908
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:12,600
So we've talked about this in the past and we got together with the mayor and some staff people and we tossed around a lot of different ideas, looked at different schedules.

909
01:12:13,460 --> 01:12:21,840
We looked at the federal schedule, we looked at the state schedule, we looked at school schedule, we looked at other cities, and it all happened to be different, by the way.

910
01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:30,100
Every single one is different, so there's a lot of different ways to approach this.

911
01:12:30,880 --> 01:12:39,940
And the consensus of this group anyway was that what we should do is get on a schedule

912
01:12:39,940 --> 01:12:49,540
and be predictable year after year, and that it made a lot of sense to follow the federal holidays.

913
01:12:49,540 --> 01:12:56,660
But having said that in the past, we've always observed Christmas Eve and the day after

914
01:12:56,660 --> 01:12:59,940
Thanksgiving, which are, in fact, not federal holidays.

915
01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:09,140
So if we go ahead and follow mostly the federal schedule, we would be adding one day, which

916
01:13:09,140 --> 01:13:13,600
is Columbus Day, which we have not closed city hall for.

917
01:13:14,910 --> 01:13:24,310
So that's a starting point in recommendation that we look at these this set of days for closure of City Hall

918
01:13:24,930 --> 01:13:33,750
and then the other meetings have been scheduled in around those closures. With that I'll turn it back over to the mayor.

919
01:13:36,710 --> 01:13:45,930
Yeah, but I'm in the calendar that you see on the left and corporates all those dates which is always the

920
01:13:46,570 --> 01:13:51,930
complexity of all the boards and commissions and the reason we have to do this so early because they had to have

921
01:13:51,930 --> 01:13:58,830
advanced notice to do their advertising and tell applicants when they need to be here and when very

922
01:13:58,830 --> 01:14:08,630
things will be heard. So simplicity of nothing else says take the federal calendar, add the day after

923
01:14:08,630 --> 01:14:10,690
Thanksgiving and Christmas Eve,

924
01:14:13,070 --> 01:14:17,970
each generous to staff as well as recognize it. That's not particularly busy on

925
01:14:17,970 --> 01:14:21,270
those days if they're here anyway because nobody's coming to the city to do

926
01:14:21,270 --> 01:14:27,170
business. We have a few you know we had to go all through well does this day

927
01:14:27,670 --> 01:14:33,710
always get celebrated on a Monday because that day always follow you know a

928
01:14:33,710 --> 01:14:39,050
calendar day of the month and what happens so it would allow us to be consistent

929
01:14:39,050 --> 01:14:42,950
for a year to year we would just still have to make adjustments in and on what day

930
01:14:42,950 --> 01:14:45,290
certain of those holidays falls on.

931
01:14:46,450 --> 01:14:46,910
Noel?

932
01:14:48,350 --> 01:14:51,610
Um, I can't. I don't have access to what you guys are looking at.

933
01:14:51,790 --> 01:14:51,910
Oh.

934
01:14:52,150 --> 01:14:54,350
When you get the agenda, there's nothing attached there.

935
01:14:56,230 --> 01:14:59,010
And I read Roger Slips, he said same here.

936
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:03,100
We have the means to throw it up,

937
01:15:07,160 --> 01:15:10,880
sorry about that. We'll get it where you can see it. So

938
01:15:14,940 --> 01:15:26,320
Columbus Day, for example, is pretty much always going to be the second Monday of October. And so we'll observe the holiday and meet on Tuesday.

939
01:15:29,410 --> 01:15:39,790
Some of the other sort of protocols that we went over when we were designing this was always move the meeting, whether it's council meeting or one of the board of commissions.

940
01:15:39,790 --> 01:15:43,650
If it lands on a holiday, it would always move to the following day.

941
01:15:44,490 --> 01:15:50,250
There were a couple cases where our meeting moved to the following day, and that stepped on somebody else's meeting,

942
01:15:50,810 --> 01:15:52,210
which we moved to the day after that.

943
01:15:54,150 --> 01:16:00,970
So, you were seeing the end result, but there was a lot of tetris sort of action on the calendar tiles.

944
01:16:02,610 --> 01:16:05,350
Does anybody like to see you on the national championship game?

945
01:16:05,350 --> 01:16:15,590
that was in fact discussed as well as the CC Championship and this year because

946
01:16:15,590 --> 01:16:21,330
those bulldogs are looking good again. Thanks Bonnie. I got an email.

947
01:16:23,900 --> 01:16:25,540
Oh, we emailed it to y'all.

948
01:16:27,690 --> 01:16:28,730
Did you get it? No,

949
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:41,940
I've always asked. This is an R calendar because we don't work here nine to five.

950
01:16:41,940 --> 01:16:48,820
So, if staff is good with it, and it serves our constituents, I mean that's what it's about,

951
01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:52,800
right? I've said that since the first time we've approved a calendar, it's not about us,

952
01:16:53,040 --> 01:16:54,580
it's about the others.

953
01:16:57,820 --> 01:17:04,580
I think, so for me, so I'm already, my child's birthday falls on that particular weekend.

954
01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:12,960
And so, I don't have a problem being here, but I do know that fall break for the schools falls

955
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:20,520
in that same time period. So I appreciate that. I would like to check into the federal

956
01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:26,740
nomenclature because I know that there are going to be people that reference in Digitus

957
01:17:26,740 --> 01:17:31,360
People's Day. I think I've seen it as a Columbus Day slash in Digitus People's Day for

958
01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:35,680
people that don't feel comfortable with that, but I'd like to make sure that we're following

959
01:17:35,680 --> 01:17:40,920
whatever the kind of appropriate current naming for that holiday is.

960
01:17:40,920 --> 01:17:41,440
For

961
01:17:51,360 --> 01:17:58,680
comments, we're not going to act on it tonight, get a check closely, but that's kind

962
01:17:58,680 --> 01:18:10,500
of the rationale, and as you're part of your question, staff, as the 10 days to begin

963
01:18:10,500 --> 01:18:16,800
with, but shortly thereafter they get 15 PTO days a year, plus one floating holiday,

964
01:18:19,030 --> 01:18:19,330
as

965
01:18:19,330 --> 01:18:21,050
far as their individual time off.

966
01:18:21,050 --> 01:18:21,530
And

967
01:18:24,060 --> 01:18:36,240
we were able to clarify that the Jacobs folks, I believe, inter-deaf folks, they get the days off that if they're on a client site, they get those same days off.

968
01:18:37,140 --> 01:18:39,880
So, everybody gets the same benefit as the point.

969
01:18:44,950 --> 01:18:46,310
Other questions? Anything at all?

970
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:49,680
We're going to move on.

971
01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:50,520
So

972
01:18:53,400 --> 01:18:57,520
the last item on our agenda is rather unique in our history.

973
01:18:58,140 --> 01:19:02,980
I'm going to get some introduction and I think Ann may cover some of the same ground,

974
01:19:03,700 --> 01:19:10,960
but I want to give you a little bit of background on what's unique about it and what we're doing.

975
01:19:11,160 --> 01:19:19,420
So as far as I know, the idea of some kind of non-discrimination ordinance arose in summer of 2019, maybe spring of 2019.

976
01:19:19,420 --> 01:19:25,960
So, well, over three years ago now, I had meetings as far back as that summer, late summer

977
01:19:25,960 --> 01:19:30,920
with the three original proponents in October of that year, I met with all three of them

978
01:19:30,920 --> 01:19:38,080
together in a meeting in December of that year, it's worth noting that those three people

979
01:19:38,080 --> 01:19:43,860
not only, they all served on our boards and commissions at the time, but actually at various

980
01:19:43,860 --> 01:19:48,300
times each of them was chairman of their respective board and commission.

981
01:19:48,300 --> 01:19:52,560
They were all appointed to their positions by me personally or in my first and second

982
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:53,420
terms as mayor.

983
01:19:54,020 --> 01:19:58,900
They were all confirmed or approved unanimously by the council.

984
01:19:59,820 --> 01:20:05,240
In those meetings, I expressed my opposition to the suggestion of an NDO, but we had very

985
01:20:05,240 --> 01:20:06,160
civil conversations.

986
01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:12,500
I did make some promises about what I'd be willing to consider and what timetable or circumstances

987
01:20:12,500 --> 01:20:18,280
circumstances that included things like review and what we're at the time expected or potential

988
01:20:18,280 --> 01:20:23,260
decisions from the US Supreme Court, the Congress was working on various laws, the State

989
01:20:23,260 --> 01:20:28,180
of Georgia's legislature was working on those laws, and we could talk about that at some

990
01:20:28,180 --> 01:20:29,880
time, but I've kept those promises.

991
01:20:31,720 --> 01:20:35,780
The idea of a non-discrimination ordinance kind of hung around and underwent a lot of

992
01:20:35,780 --> 01:20:41,240
various degrees of conversation and discussion, but the previous counsel, previous to this

993
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:46,660
current group never reached a consensus on moving forward in some formal way.

994
01:20:47,920 --> 01:20:53,180
We never had two members get together to avail themselves of their prerogative to put it

995
01:20:53,180 --> 01:20:57,460
on the agenda or even present specific draft for consideration.

996
01:20:58,580 --> 01:21:04,320
So last fall, nobody on this board or on our Zoom call needs a reminder that the issue

997
01:21:04,320 --> 01:21:07,900
was kind of front and center during campaigns for mayor and for city council.

998
01:21:10,000 --> 01:21:15,540
So, on October 12th, last year, just about, well, it'll be a year ago at our next meeting.

999
01:21:16,240 --> 01:21:21,740
I brought forward a resolution, I brought some copies, I'll put them on the table over

1000
01:21:21,740 --> 01:21:27,020
there, you can pick them up on the way, the actual resolution that we passed back then.

1001
01:21:27,080 --> 01:21:32,840
But I want to share with the members who weren't part of that council, and maybe members of

1002
01:21:32,840 --> 01:21:37,800
public who've heard about it but haven't heard it itself what was said and done

1003
01:21:37,800 --> 01:21:42,840
immediately before and after that resolution.

1004
01:21:52,180 --> 01:21:52,700
This

1005
01:21:57,500 --> 01:21:58,620
is the text of what I

1006
01:21:58,620 --> 01:22:03,560
read into the record at the time in introducing the resolution. My fellow

1007
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:06,860
council members for over two years now with some interruptions by COVID we've been

1008
01:22:06,860 --> 01:22:10,860
educating ourselves and talking with many many members of the public about how to

1009
01:22:10,860 --> 01:22:21,780
to ensure not only that Tucker is an inclusive, fair, and welcoming community, but that we find a way to make clear to our citizens and to the world beyond that that is the case tonight. I'm asking you to take action with me.

1010
01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:40,160
During the Tucker Business Association, Tucker Civic Association mayoral candidate forum a few weeks ago, I said like I have many times in the past that I fully support the intent of a non-discrimination ordinance and have long wanted to pass a resolution confirming that we as a city embrace our diversity and seek to protect all people from discrimination.

1011
01:22:41,100 --> 01:22:46,320
I've not pursued a resolution, I said then, because some voices had said it was not enough.

1012
01:22:47,200 --> 01:22:50,780
Well since the forum I've heard from many other voices in homes and neighborhoods across

1013
01:22:50,780 --> 01:22:55,140
Tucker and the grocery store and on Main Street, these voices have urged me to present such

1014
01:22:55,140 --> 01:22:57,360
a resolution to Council because it does have meaning.

1015
01:22:57,860 --> 01:22:58,700
It's what's in their hearts.

1016
01:22:59,300 --> 01:23:00,120
It's what's in my heart.

1017
01:23:00,540 --> 01:23:03,420
It's in your hearts and most important, it's in the hearts of our community.

1018
01:23:04,080 --> 01:23:07,400
Those people encouraged me emphatically to do what we can do now.

1019
01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:09,620
They urged me to remove politics.

1020
01:23:09,620 --> 01:23:14,820
the politics of the matter, and make it about what it should be, which is people and people

1021
01:23:14,820 --> 01:23:19,520
over politics. We've always said, well before cityhood that it's our people that make

1022
01:23:19,520 --> 01:23:25,140
Tucker a special welcoming place, and when we say people, we mean all people. We should

1023
01:23:25,140 --> 01:23:29,360
always seek to draw strength from our diversity, and when we do, we accomplish great things.

1024
01:23:30,040 --> 01:23:34,440
At no time was that more apparent than during the cityhood movement when we all came together

1025
01:23:34,440 --> 01:23:40,960
to keep Tucker, all of Tucker as one community, as others sought to divide us and pit us against

1026
01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:46,800
one another. Instead, we united and made history, and we have continued to make historic progress

1027
01:23:46,800 --> 01:23:51,380
ever since. I'm grateful for all of you who took time to reach out and support our resolution.

1028
01:23:52,020 --> 01:23:56,000
I also want to thank the cities of Stone Mountain, Pine Lake, and Columbus for sharing their own

1029
01:23:56,000 --> 01:24:01,980
resolutions, which inform and add greatly to this one. So with that, I move the following resolution,

1030
01:24:01,980 --> 01:24:07,000
and that's what I've brought as a copy of that resolution that passed unanimously at the time.

1031
01:24:08,920 --> 01:24:14,380
After the motion was made to pass it, I said this, which is important to kind of where we're headed.

1032
01:24:15,400 --> 01:24:17,180
I want to add one other step here.

1033
01:24:17,780 --> 01:24:24,280
Two of our members have recently offered to help create the framework for a working group that can further study this issue.

1034
01:24:25,320 --> 01:24:28,200
Pat and Matt, that was Pat Sultis and Matt Robbins at the time.

1035
01:24:28,620 --> 01:24:38,900
If it's all right with you, I'd like to ask you and Anne Learner to follow through on that and bring me a proposal for how that working group would be constructed if you're willing, we can start working on that right away.

1036
01:24:41,640 --> 01:24:49,390
Well, time passed. It was the end of Pat's and Matt's terms. There was an election going on. The holidays came.

1037
01:24:50,130 --> 01:24:56,510
That was mid-October of last year and nothing really got underway with that group before the end of the year.

1038
01:24:56,510 --> 01:25:08,050
So back in April of this year, with a new council in place, I asked Keras Schroeder and Virginia Reese who's not able to be with us tonight to take on those roles with Anne and they're here tonight to report on their work.

1039
01:25:09,070 --> 01:25:16,590
So I mentioned this was a unique circumstance in our history in several ways, and I want to point those out as we discuss our process on the matter.

1040
01:25:17,690 --> 01:25:21,830
First, I've never appointed a work group like this before.

1041
01:25:22,610 --> 01:25:26,370
So exactly how they should report out and what we'll do with the results is something

1042
01:25:26,370 --> 01:25:27,650
that we're working out now.

1043
01:25:28,610 --> 01:25:33,010
Second, I can't recall, I could be wrong, but I don't recall that we've ever had an ordinance

1044
01:25:33,010 --> 01:25:36,810
interrupted by council members as opposed to our staff and legal council.

1045
01:25:37,090 --> 01:25:41,470
Ordinarily we have staff, we've discussed to talk about the need for it.

1046
01:25:41,630 --> 01:25:46,450
Staff presents, it's been vetted in a lot of ways before it gets to us.

1047
01:25:47,330 --> 01:25:52,010
So I can't recall a case like this where the members of council have actually written

1048
01:25:52,010 --> 01:25:52,510
the ordinance.

1049
01:25:53,510 --> 01:25:57,570
It's a nice just a work session, so the item has not yet been introduced as a business

1050
01:25:57,570 --> 01:26:02,190
item, but if it is, we'll have to work out how it'll be presented and debated and what

1051
01:26:02,190 --> 01:26:07,110
sort of public input we'll have and public hearings if that's going to be the case.

1052
01:26:08,390 --> 01:26:12,770
So we'll have to vet it and do our duty to make sure it's legally defensible, does what

1053
01:26:12,770 --> 01:26:15,690
So it's intended and doesn't produce negative unintended consequences.

1054
01:26:16,510 --> 01:26:18,930
That's all what is beginning tonight.

1055
01:26:19,290 --> 01:26:29,810
So I don't know if everybody had a draft or a draft of a proposed ordinance a week or

1056
01:26:29,810 --> 01:26:38,490
two ago, but we're about to see their report and the current and or final draft of the ordinance

1057
01:26:38,490 --> 01:26:38,970
tonight.

1058
01:26:40,330 --> 01:26:44,590
And we'll all have an opportunity to ask questions about all of that and how we're going to proceed.

1059
01:26:45,130 --> 01:26:51,890
So with that, I'm going to turn it over to Ann and Kara and Virginia later, I guess.

1060
01:26:52,590 --> 01:26:54,010
And I'm so sorry, thank you, Mayor.

1061
01:26:54,370 --> 01:26:58,550
What I want to say, you know, I wholeheartedly agree with your words and your comments

1062
01:26:58,550 --> 01:27:01,610
from when you presented that resolution, it was true.

1063
01:27:01,710 --> 01:27:05,610
And I was one of those loud voices that said, now let's have an ordinance instead of a resolution.

1064
01:27:05,610 --> 01:27:11,310
So, I apologize for that earlier in that and I just loved hearing your words again because

1065
01:27:11,870 --> 01:27:16,670
that is what was in everybody's heart at the time and appreciate you bringing that back

1066
01:27:16,670 --> 01:27:17,270
to the forefront.

1067
01:27:17,830 --> 01:27:18,490
I'm sorry Virginia.

1068
01:27:18,630 --> 01:27:19,410
Reese could not be here.

1069
01:27:19,530 --> 01:27:21,270
She has worked super, super hard.

1070
01:27:21,650 --> 01:27:25,410
We talked about she had a little accident so she was in the hospital, she'll be okay, keep

1071
01:27:25,410 --> 01:27:30,530
her in your thoughts and prayers and just know that she has worked very hard on this as

1072
01:27:30,530 --> 01:27:30,870
well.

1073
01:27:30,870 --> 01:27:36,150
I'll carry you to, Mary, you give a little bit of that background and so I pass out a

1074
01:27:36,150 --> 01:27:37,070
working group report.

1075
01:27:37,170 --> 01:27:45,530
We'll have this online later on to be shared with everybody and I want to bring up the working

1076
01:27:45,530 --> 01:27:46,390
group members.

1077
01:27:47,110 --> 01:27:49,030
They are members of the community.

1078
01:27:49,250 --> 01:27:50,090
They are here tonight.

1079
01:27:50,250 --> 01:27:53,430
One person can't be here, so I'll speak for him real quick, Don Serrino.

1080
01:27:54,630 --> 01:27:58,490
Don has a retired U.S. Department of Labor, Office of Federal Contract Compliance.

1081
01:27:58,490 --> 01:28:14,670
He was an investigator, human resource manager, spent 30 plus years there and, you know, invaluable, and just, you know, this group asked him to come up and introduce themselves if that's okay because they've worked on this and just say a few comments.

1082
01:28:14,990 --> 01:28:17,730
So, Andrew, if you want to kick it off for us, we'd appreciate that.

1083
01:28:17,730 --> 01:28:17,770
Yeah.

1084
01:28:17,990 --> 01:28:19,290
Thank you.

1085
01:28:19,470 --> 01:28:20,910
Good evening, Mayor and Councilor.

1086
01:28:21,170 --> 01:28:22,970
I really appreciate the opportunity to be here.

1087
01:28:24,150 --> 01:28:28,370
I'm not going to try to summarize everything that's announced report, just to hit a few comments

1088
01:28:28,370 --> 01:28:29,370
that I think are important.

1089
01:28:30,570 --> 01:28:36,030
Number one, I really appreciate the powerful statement that your Honor made last year regarding

1090
01:28:36,030 --> 01:28:41,950
so I think it was a perfect, really hit almost every nail in the head, but I want to add this.

1091
01:28:42,110 --> 01:28:44,230
I think an ordinance takes it further.

1092
01:28:45,270 --> 01:28:54,030
an ordinance has moral force and legal force as well. You're saying this is not just our intent,

1093
01:28:54,330 --> 01:29:00,190
but this is where we are legally. And what I like about this, and we've had a very careful process,

1094
01:29:00,210 --> 01:29:05,950
I think, we've worked very hard over the previous months, but I think we've got a framework now to deal

1095
01:29:05,950 --> 01:29:09,010
with complaints that might come up for discrimination.

1096
01:29:11,610 --> 01:29:13,930
I frankly think that there will probably be

1097
01:29:13,930 --> 01:29:18,610
relatively few complaints that we brought into this, but to the extent that there are any,

1098
01:29:18,950 --> 01:29:23,610
we've got a way to deal with it. I think that's pro business, I think that's pro consumer.

1099
01:29:23,870 --> 01:29:28,450
I think it's frankly good for everybody. Our approach, as we've tried to put our thoughts

1100
01:29:28,450 --> 01:29:34,790
together on this, was to come up with a framework that's based on conciliation, mediation, and

1101
01:29:34,790 --> 01:29:40,630
resolution, and not combat. Let's find a way to work things out in a way that satisfies

1102
01:29:40,630 --> 01:29:44,710
Everyone brings us to a good mutual acceptable resolution.

1103
01:29:46,390 --> 01:29:50,130
So that's why we emphasize mediation as much as possible.

1104
01:29:50,790 --> 01:29:54,730
I personally have got a lot of mediation, so I know Roger has done a lot of them too.

1105
01:29:55,330 --> 01:29:59,470
I think Roger would agree that it's absolutely phenomenal how...

1106
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:28,700
But you can get done when you have a directed mediation. It's not an arbitration, but that's a session where you sit people down and you listen to each other very carefully and face-to-face, and it's remarkable. People can come in miles apart and they walk away going, I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. They resolve it. And that's our hope, frankly, in terms of how this would work. I'm, again, I don't want to try to cover all of Ann's report because there are a lot of incidents here.

1107
01:30:28,700 --> 01:30:34,100
But I want to thank the Council, I want to thank Ann, Karen and Virginia for spearheading

1108
01:30:34,100 --> 01:30:34,520
this effort.

1109
01:30:34,860 --> 01:30:38,580
And the rest of the Council too for just hearing us, it was an opportunity to put it together.

1110
01:30:39,700 --> 01:30:41,240
But I think it's a good ordinance.

1111
01:30:41,500 --> 01:30:44,560
I'm going to urge the Council to consider it and frankly to adopt it.

1112
01:30:45,020 --> 01:30:47,000
I think it'll move Tucker forward.

1113
01:30:47,300 --> 01:30:52,880
It puts us not only squarely in the mainstream progressive cities, but it puts us in a marketplace

1114
01:30:52,880 --> 01:30:58,440
too, because we want to attract people to Tucker in the future, who this would be important

1115
01:30:58,440 --> 01:31:05,920
to. We want to not just be known for saying that we value diversity, that we value inclusion

1116
01:31:05,920 --> 01:31:10,320
and that we welcome everyone. We want to say, we actually have an order to assess so.

1117
01:31:10,640 --> 01:31:14,600
So come on over. Live here and work here. And that's what we want to do. That's really all

1118
01:31:14,600 --> 01:31:18,920
I've got to say for now. Thanks again to all of you. Others may have something to say too.

1119
01:31:19,140 --> 01:31:23,340
Well, I know you're being modest, but you know, you have some qualifications on why we ask

1120
01:31:23,340 --> 01:31:27,160
you to be in this group. Do you want to? Well, I am a mediator to that. I've been an attorney

1121
01:31:27,160 --> 01:31:34,460
from Logan I'd like to admit or many decades and but over the years I began to

1122
01:31:34,460 --> 01:31:38,860
drift more toward mediation because I felt that that was the prank of the best

1123
01:31:38,860 --> 01:31:44,360
way to resolve the speeds. Almost every court nowadays mandates mediation. Judges

1124
01:31:44,360 --> 01:31:48,960
say I don't want to hear you guys coming to court and fight, go mediated and it's

1125
01:31:48,960 --> 01:31:53,760
remarkable how often that works. People come in breathing fire, they walk out with

1126
01:31:53,760 --> 01:31:59,040
agree that it happens every single day and I think that's the way to go. I think that's

1127
01:31:59,040 --> 01:32:04,800
why it was so important for us to take this approach. Yeah, the city under our approach

1128
01:32:04,800 --> 01:32:09,320
would pace the mediation fees, but I think that's something part of the process. I think

1129
01:32:09,320 --> 01:32:14,080
that's what you got to do to make it work. It would not be an astronomical constant. Again,

1130
01:32:14,280 --> 01:32:19,320
I frankly think that the number of cases that we brought or this will not be great. We'll

1131
01:32:19,320 --> 01:32:24,200
see. But if you look around at what other cities have seen, it's a pretty small number of cases

1132
01:32:24,200 --> 01:32:29,400
that ever come up. But it's an opportunity for us and I think to move our city forward in a

1133
01:32:29,400 --> 01:32:36,340
significant way, to say we're part of the mainstream and we're part of the tomorrow generation. We're

1134
01:32:36,340 --> 01:32:42,540
going to make this happen. We welcome everybody. So anything else I can address? Thanks. Okay,

1135
01:32:54,510 --> 01:32:58,030
I don't have a long speech like Andrea

1136
01:33:00,910 --> 01:33:03,890
but my name is Sandra Rice, I've been a resident

1137
01:33:03,890 --> 01:33:09,550
of Tucker for about ten plus years, a resident of the county for forty years.

1138
01:33:12,370 --> 01:33:19,870
I was here when the mayor read the resolution and immediately sent an email the next day

1139
01:33:19,870 --> 01:33:20,830
to volunteer.

1140
01:33:20,830 --> 01:33:32,790
And for months, I didn't hear anything, but then Anne reached out to me, and I gladly accepted, and thank you for reaching out to me, and I really appreciated working with the working group.

1141
01:33:34,250 --> 01:33:43,790
The reason I'm interested, again, I'm an advocate for individuals with disabilities, no matter what the disability is.

1142
01:33:43,790 --> 01:33:56,250
So I have a son, 37 years old, we live in Tucker, and I just want him to be able to feel comfortable anywhere he goes in Tucker, because that's where he lives.

1143
01:33:56,630 --> 01:34:02,270
He lives here in Tucker, and hopefully after I'm gone, he can still live here in Tucker.

1144
01:34:02,930 --> 01:34:12,730
So that's why I volunteered to be on this committee, and I really, really enjoyed meeting all the different other people on the committee and working with them.

1145
01:34:12,730 --> 01:34:15,050
I was quiet, but I was listening.

1146
01:34:15,730 --> 01:34:16,730
Thank you.

1147
01:34:17,430 --> 01:34:18,530
Call this out sometimes.

1148
01:34:18,990 --> 01:34:20,630
You kept us straight.

1149
01:34:31,320 --> 01:34:32,020
Thomas Walker.

1150
01:34:33,280 --> 01:34:34,780
I've lived in Tucker for 25 years.

1151
01:34:35,400 --> 01:34:36,520
I've been an attorney for 30.

1152
01:34:37,220 --> 01:34:40,820
I have primarily been an employment attorney for that whole time.

1153
01:34:41,540 --> 01:34:43,440
I'm very familiar with employment law.

1154
01:34:44,160 --> 01:34:50,020
The reason why non-discrimination order became important to me is

1155
01:34:50,020 --> 01:34:53,500
Because you know, a lot of people have misconceptions about the federal law.

1156
01:34:53,660 --> 01:34:57,980
So, you know, we don't need one because there's federal protection, let the federal laws

1157
01:34:59,100 --> 01:34:59,900
protect people.

1158
01:34:59,960 --> 01:35:00,980
Let them go that route.

1159
01:35:01,660 --> 01:35:05,760
But people don't understand, though, is that there are gaps in the federal law.

1160
01:35:07,700 --> 01:35:14,300
The Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, only that's the law that protects based

1161
01:35:14,300 --> 01:35:20,880
in the race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin, and ethnicity.

1162
01:35:21,520 --> 01:35:25,880
But it only protects you if you work for employers with 15 or more employees.

1163
01:35:26,660 --> 01:35:31,500
The same with the ADA, the AmeriCorps with Disabilities Act.

1164
01:35:32,040 --> 01:35:34,560
It only protects you if you have 15 or more employees.

1165
01:35:35,240 --> 01:35:35,960
And it gets worse.

1166
01:35:36,420 --> 01:35:41,380
When you get to the ADA, the age discrimination and employment act, it only protects if you

1167
01:35:41,380 --> 01:35:42,540
have 20 employees.

1168
01:35:42,540 --> 01:35:49,480
And the other issue with the ADA is that the 11th Circuit, which is Georgia, Alabama,

1169
01:35:49,680 --> 01:35:57,100
Florida, they have decided that the ADA does not protect respective employees against

1170
01:35:57,100 --> 01:36:03,120
disparate impact and the ADA protects if you're 40 or over.

1171
01:36:04,060 --> 01:36:08,920
One of the things I see a lot are law firms and they advertise one to three years experience,

1172
01:36:09,440 --> 01:36:10,880
you know, fresh graduates.

1173
01:36:10,880 --> 01:36:14,980
Well, that will pretty much eliminate everyone over 40.

1174
01:36:15,740 --> 01:36:20,000
At my whole career, I have only known one attorney who went back to law school after age 40.

1175
01:36:20,760 --> 01:36:32,700
So, you know, here they are openly basically, you know, legally in the law of the circuit getting away with discriminating based on age, you know, because of the disparate impact.

1176
01:36:33,340 --> 01:36:39,980
Other circuits have decided that you can't do disparate impact discrimination under the ADA,

1177
01:36:39,980 --> 01:36:45,020
But that's, you know, there's a split and we live in a lot of circumstances that doesn't matter what the ninth might do.

1178
01:36:46,440 --> 01:36:56,160
And age discrimination is really something that's very important to me because I had my own cell practice during the great recession.

1179
01:36:56,820 --> 01:37:00,360
And I had so many people calling me up who had been fired.

1180
01:37:01,540 --> 01:37:03,560
And they were having to make unemployment claims.

1181
01:37:03,860 --> 01:37:08,840
And employers were fighting them because the people who were in that age group,

1182
01:37:08,840 --> 01:37:12,140
They were the first to be fired because they were the most expensive employees.

1183
01:37:13,180 --> 01:37:18,080
They had a harder time finding work because people just didn't want experienced employees.

1184
01:37:19,640 --> 01:37:22,800
Employers were aggressive with fighting because there were so many people out there.

1185
01:37:23,260 --> 01:37:27,100
So it was something that I really first saw firsthand was an issue.

1186
01:37:27,860 --> 01:37:35,300
And the thing I like about our non-discrimination ordinance is that it fills in the gaps and

1187
01:37:35,880 --> 01:37:37,040
it protects everybody.

1188
01:37:37,040 --> 01:37:41,660
It doesn't just protect, you know, one group here protects every one of us.

1189
01:37:42,140 --> 01:37:44,660
At some point we're going to hopefully will be 40 or older.

1190
01:37:45,940 --> 01:37:48,720
And, you know, there's a protected group that everyone could follow into.

1191
01:37:49,200 --> 01:37:52,620
The other thing, why I think the discrimination ordinance is important,

1192
01:37:53,480 --> 01:37:55,120
is it levels the playing field.

1193
01:37:55,700 --> 01:38:01,700
Like I said, if you're 15 more employees, you have to worry about this stuff.

1194
01:38:02,140 --> 01:38:04,300
If you have 14 more employees, you don't.

1195
01:38:04,300 --> 01:38:09,000
You know, what is the difference between a company with 14 employees and one with 15 employees?

1196
01:38:09,520 --> 01:38:16,240
So, you know, the companies and with, you know, ages, you know, 20 and 19, what's the difference?

1197
01:38:16,440 --> 01:38:23,860
So, you have, you know, employers that are very, very similar, yet you're applying different rules to them.

1198
01:38:24,020 --> 01:38:32,840
You know, the one has to look at their employee manual, that to make sure that they, you know, have training that people educated.

1199
01:38:33,600 --> 01:38:40,220
The other one gets like, we don't care, so you know those are the reasons why I wanted

1200
01:38:40,220 --> 01:38:46,720
to get involved in non-discrimination ordinance and I'll tell you I also had some of a change

1201
01:38:46,720 --> 01:38:50,120
of hierarchy and at one time you know I thought I was a group of like, yeah we don't need this,

1202
01:38:50,120 --> 01:38:51,540
what are we doing this about?

1203
01:38:51,820 --> 01:38:58,160
And then you know when the summer of 2020 there are some rumblings allegations that may not

1204
01:38:58,160 --> 01:39:05,180
have been, you know, have any true basis against a large employer, I said, well, you know,

1205
01:39:05,260 --> 01:39:09,460
we can't just, you know, hide behind what doesn't happen here, because we at least have

1206
01:39:09,460 --> 01:39:14,880
some allegation that it may not have, but that was really where I said, you know, I said,

1207
01:39:14,960 --> 01:39:17,280
I need to reconsider this and start thinking about it.

1208
01:39:17,600 --> 01:39:23,120
And then looking at a lot of the proposed ordinance and other city's ordinance, and they,

1209
01:39:23,200 --> 01:39:27,680
you know, revere and include, I mean, include everyone and yet age reduction, so yeah, so

1210
01:39:27,680 --> 01:39:31,940
that the week's time is the time for us to do this, so that's all I got.

1211
01:39:32,680 --> 01:39:37,640
How has it gone? Lots of great debates. I had to get back to my training of being a school

1212
01:39:37,640 --> 01:39:42,280
teacher to say, all right guys, time out. Let's come back. So it was very, very invaluable.

1213
01:39:42,500 --> 01:39:43,940
Thank you very much. Derek, anything?

1214
01:39:48,170 --> 01:39:53,010
Mayor and council, I just have a couple comments as for just to say thank you for the opportunity

1215
01:39:53,010 --> 01:39:59,330
of being able to serve. One thing that I had always kept reiterating to the members of the committee

1216
01:39:59,330 --> 01:40:06,170
is that when you have the opportunity to adopt this type of ordinance, I think it puts us in the forefront

1217
01:40:06,170 --> 01:40:13,430
of being a modern city because if you take a look at it, Tucker is not the same city that it was 15 years ago.

1218
01:40:14,210 --> 01:40:17,450
And it's not going to be the same city 15 years from now.

1219
01:40:17,990 --> 01:40:24,630
We have to make sure that we are setting the agenda to move forward to what we're going to be, not for what we are right now.

1220
01:40:24,630 --> 01:40:28,550
And I think when you relay that message to the people,

1221
01:40:29,210 --> 01:40:32,590
the individuals who it will affect the most

1222
01:40:32,590 --> 01:40:35,470
will be those individuals 15 years from now.

1223
01:40:36,010 --> 01:40:38,130
It will be immediately felt for those individuals

1224
01:40:38,130 --> 01:40:39,470
when we move it forward for now,

1225
01:40:39,750 --> 01:40:41,650
but we won't always live for now.

1226
01:40:41,910 --> 01:40:45,210
We will always be living for tomorrow for when it comes.

1227
01:40:45,790 --> 01:40:49,250
For individuals who this ordinance basically puts

1228
01:40:49,250 --> 01:40:53,330
a spotlight on is to make sure that it's everybody.

1229
01:40:53,330 --> 01:40:57,130
It's not one single protected class, it's for everybody.

1230
01:40:57,430 --> 01:41:02,450
And we want to make sure that we're being the city that's marketable to those individuals

1231
01:41:02,450 --> 01:41:04,730
who want to do business with Tucker.

1232
01:41:05,190 --> 01:41:08,710
When you have Tucker being put out in the forefront,

1233
01:41:09,250 --> 01:41:14,510
I tell the members of the committee, it will put us on a higher level,

1234
01:41:15,050 --> 01:41:18,390
and with that higher level, higher levels come new levels.

1235
01:41:18,770 --> 01:41:20,550
So you have to be ready and be equipped.

1236
01:41:20,550 --> 01:41:26,790
and I think by putting this ordinance in place it establishes a process of what we would do if we

1237
01:41:26,790 --> 01:41:32,530
were faced and had to deal with it. A lot of the cities that Andrew mentioned before, she stated

1238
01:41:32,530 --> 01:41:36,250
that there was not a whole lot of them, but it doesn't take a whole lot, it only takes one.

1239
01:41:36,930 --> 01:41:41,110
And we want to make sure that we are on that playing field that we're able to contribute and to

1240
01:41:41,110 --> 01:41:50,190
be able to address the needs of the citizens where who would be affected by this. And we want to

1241
01:41:50,190 --> 01:41:54,550
city welcoming city and inclusive of all we want all those businesses all those

1242
01:41:54,550 --> 01:41:58,830
developers who have those employees who this could possibly affect say hey I

1243
01:41:58,830 --> 01:42:02,170
want to do business over there because they not only walk the walk they talk

1244
01:42:02,170 --> 01:42:09,010
the talk and they do it and they have something in place for thank you I've been

1245
01:42:09,790 --> 01:42:16,270
I've been in human resources for the last almost 30 years and it has been one

1246
01:42:16,270 --> 01:42:23,730
One of those things where the types of conversations come up daily, and is anybody

1247
01:42:23,730 --> 01:42:29,030
know working in HR, no day is the same, and it's always faced with a situation where an

1248
01:42:29,030 --> 01:42:34,770
individual or an employee can come to me and say, hey, Derek, I don't know, my supervisor

1249
01:42:34,770 --> 01:42:36,630
is not treating me right.

1250
01:42:37,350 --> 01:42:38,290
This is happening.

1251
01:42:38,490 --> 01:42:39,470
This is what's going on.

1252
01:42:39,610 --> 01:42:45,610
And so I'm faced with having to deal with those types of situations day in and day out.

1253
01:42:46,590 --> 01:42:50,370
I never started out wanting to be an HR, you know, I was going to be an entrepreneur,

1254
01:42:51,130 --> 01:42:57,610
but I got bit by the bug back in the 90s so dealing in HR definitely went and asked

1255
01:42:57,610 --> 01:43:03,190
me to be a part of this, I said, this is right down my alley buddy, this is one of those

1256
01:43:03,190 --> 01:43:09,470
things where it gets me excited and I like to see the opportunity where you're able to

1257
01:43:10,010 --> 01:43:15,350
contribute to the advancement and the success of those in which you serve.

1258
01:43:15,810 --> 01:43:20,530
And that could be applied to not only to my job, but to each and every one of you job, your jobs as well.

1259
01:43:21,070 --> 01:43:25,830
Because when you have, I use an example, when you have an employee come to you and state that, hey,

1260
01:43:27,150 --> 01:43:32,130
something's not right. Well, first of all, you take that as a compliment because they don't necessarily have to share that with you.

1261
01:43:32,610 --> 01:43:37,050
The second part of that is that, okay, what it is that you're going to do about it.

1262
01:43:37,050 --> 01:43:44,430
It may not necessarily be the outcome that they were expecting, but the mere fact that you have a process in place to hear them.

1263
01:43:45,430 --> 01:43:47,710
That's 90% of the battle is won right there.

1264
01:43:48,330 --> 01:44:00,250
So, when you make sure that you put processes in place, it gives you credibility to that eye of that individual, whether that be an employee, whether that be a friend, or even an enemy, but you have a place.

1265
01:44:00,250 --> 01:44:07,390
you have a process and they will respect you and I necessarily agree with what the outcome is but they will respect you for the process.

1266
01:44:09,430 --> 01:44:10,230
Thank you.

1267
01:44:10,730 --> 01:44:11,910
Karen, did you want to say anything?

1268
01:44:16,810 --> 01:44:23,110
So I appreciate the group. I just want to tell you, you guys, your experience was invaluable and we're amazed all the time.

1269
01:44:23,210 --> 01:44:32,030
All of us can say that probably. We're amazed all the time about the talent that's in Tucker but not only the wealth of knowledge and talent that's there but you're willing to give it your time.

1270
01:44:32,030 --> 01:44:32,710
Right.

1271
01:44:33,030 --> 01:44:33,850
That's the difference.

1272
01:44:34,010 --> 01:44:34,910
You're willing to give your time.

1273
01:44:35,070 --> 01:44:39,190
So I want to thank you guys, Mary, thank you for the resolution, for you entrusting

1274
01:44:39,190 --> 01:44:40,030
us with that.

1275
01:44:40,270 --> 01:44:45,450
We thank the past council members who supported that resolution, and we thank our current council

1276
01:44:45,450 --> 01:44:48,810
members for sharing their ideas and concerns about this.

1277
01:44:49,310 --> 01:44:53,790
I also want to thank Angela Brooks, our outreach business coordinator and kept us organized and

1278
01:44:53,790 --> 01:44:56,410
shared her experiences with working with our local businesses.

1279
01:44:56,410 --> 01:44:59,490
Our Tucker open door leaders, Catherine Atterbury.

1280
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:29,500
Mayor Claire Presley who's here tonight and George Wellborne appreciate your fourth thought and patience. All the business owners, real estate professionals, faith leaders who engaged with us in conversations and ultimately gave us recommendations that made this better. We talked to elected officials and staff members in other cities, not just around the cab or the state, but in other cities across the country. We want to thank them and then community members for the last two years, you know, three years now. We've been getting emails of support.

1281
01:45:29,500 --> 01:45:34,200
and also emails of concern, and it's an important reminder for us to listen to all perspectives.

1282
01:45:35,160 --> 01:45:37,400
And so that's what we did, so we're thankful for you guys.

1283
01:45:37,500 --> 01:45:38,740
So just a little bit about our process.

1284
01:45:39,500 --> 01:45:45,600
I don't have a fancy PowerPoint, because frankly I didn't have time, but you'll see this.

1285
01:45:45,800 --> 01:45:50,720
So our process, we met about an average two times per month for May to September.

1286
01:45:51,440 --> 01:45:55,900
During those meetings, we had different ideas, opinions, robust discussions.

1287
01:45:57,240 --> 01:46:03,400
We raised a lot of issues ourselves, right, and debated, but it was always in an open and respectful manner.

1288
01:46:04,040 --> 01:46:12,900
Then we began to reach out to business owners, business leaders, stakeholders in the community, real estate professionals, faith-based leaders in our community

1289
01:46:12,900 --> 01:46:14,400
to gain their insight and feedback.

1290
01:46:15,340 --> 01:46:22,520
We met twice with Tucker Open Door leaders as well, and, right, we know that it's not a totally exhaustive outreach.

1291
01:46:22,520 --> 01:46:24,960
It's similar to what these other groups were presenting tonight.

1292
01:46:25,180 --> 01:46:28,860
We had a community meeting, people came, or we sent out surveys, all of that.

1293
01:46:28,980 --> 01:46:33,440
So we know it's not exhausted, but it's a sampling of the perspectives across our community.

1294
01:46:34,760 --> 01:46:41,840
And there's still room for public input, there's still room when we would bring this ordinance

1295
01:46:41,840 --> 01:46:43,960
forward working through our city process.

1296
01:46:44,300 --> 01:46:45,920
There could be city hearings as well.

1297
01:46:46,520 --> 01:46:49,060
And so we want to be respectful of that.

1298
01:46:49,060 --> 01:46:54,440
You know, let's be honest. A lot of people said you're flipping crazy to bring it right now because there's an election

1299
01:46:54,440 --> 01:46:58,240
You know coming up and there's all this divisiveness and people were concerned

1300
01:46:58,240 --> 01:47:01,420
And I'm glad that they were concerned for Tucker because we love our hometown

1301
01:47:02,100 --> 01:47:06,560
We've always put aside our differences for Tucker right now. I say the party of Tucker the tea

1302
01:47:07,500 --> 01:47:11,980
And we come together. We roll up our sleeves and we get things done together for the good of the community

1303
01:47:11,980 --> 01:47:16,620
And I would expect that moving forward. We want to make sure it is about Tucker

1304
01:47:17,440 --> 01:47:21,220
right, and no other types of agendas, so I know that everybody will be

1305
01:47:21,220 --> 01:47:27,220
respectful and we can be happy with that. Like I said, we looked at surrounding

1306
01:47:27,220 --> 01:47:31,080
municipalities in Decap County who had ordinances. We looked at other cities in

1307
01:47:31,080 --> 01:47:35,140
Georgia and a few across the country at the local and state level. There are

1308
01:47:35,140 --> 01:47:39,340
states. I think maybe there's only three or four that do not have anything like

1309
01:47:39,340 --> 01:47:44,720
this, so we looked at some state ones as well. And then we also met with City

1310
01:47:44,720 --> 01:47:49,660
manager Tammy Hanlon met a few times and had conversations with City Attorney Ted Baguette

1311
01:47:49,660 --> 01:47:51,500
to discuss the impacts of the city, right?

1312
01:47:51,640 --> 01:47:52,660
It goes beyond that.

1313
01:47:52,740 --> 01:47:57,000
We do that with our other ordinance as well and incorporate their feedback into the

1314
01:47:57,000 --> 01:47:58,620
working group recommendations as well.

1315
01:47:59,540 --> 01:48:03,380
So in this report, gave you a little bit of the discussion and feedback, right?

1316
01:48:03,620 --> 01:48:05,620
There was a lot of questions that were thrown out.

1317
01:48:06,400 --> 01:48:13,020
This is not considered a comprehensive list, but was the most frequently raised concerns

1318
01:48:13,020 --> 01:48:16,620
or issues or thoughts that came up when we were talking about this.

1319
01:48:17,040 --> 01:48:19,540
So one why, right? That's the first thing, why?

1320
01:48:20,540 --> 01:48:23,400
Some people said a way to show Tucker is a welcoming city for all, right?

1321
01:48:23,840 --> 01:48:26,560
You're saying it, you're doing it, you've got an ordinance.

1322
01:48:27,100 --> 01:48:29,580
Provide a process for small businesses and complaints.

1323
01:48:29,820 --> 01:48:35,260
It was mentioned we, you know, sometimes these things play out on social media, right?

1324
01:48:35,400 --> 01:48:37,980
And people don't feel like there's a way or process for them.

1325
01:48:38,340 --> 01:48:41,840
So small business owners felt like they thought that was a protection for them as well.

1326
01:48:41,840 --> 01:48:44,700
There was a place that could handle this.

1327
01:48:45,120 --> 01:48:46,580
Many good things happening in Tucker.

1328
01:48:47,700 --> 01:48:50,440
At some times, we're overshadowed by this one concern.

1329
01:48:51,920 --> 01:48:54,120
So that people didn't see all this other stuff

1330
01:48:54,120 --> 01:48:55,360
because they were looking here.

1331
01:48:56,080 --> 01:48:57,120
And then public perception.

1332
01:48:57,320 --> 01:48:58,620
Sometimes it needs some polishing.

1333
01:48:59,640 --> 01:49:00,900
Because people don't know us.

1334
01:49:01,100 --> 01:49:02,360
And they're not living here.

1335
01:49:03,260 --> 01:49:03,960
What is discrimination?

1336
01:49:05,740 --> 01:49:07,680
Derek, you said you have people come to you

1337
01:49:07,680 --> 01:49:08,980
and say this and that.

1338
01:49:09,200 --> 01:49:10,580
It's not personal conflict.

1339
01:49:10,580 --> 01:49:15,220
it's not you favored this person over that person, you know, it occurs when people are treated

1340
01:49:15,220 --> 01:49:21,420
differently or singled out for those various reasons of who they are. Is this happening in Tucker?

1341
01:49:21,880 --> 01:49:26,660
How would we know? Well, how do we know if we don't have a process, right? People are going on

1342
01:49:26,660 --> 01:49:31,700
social media, traditional media. Sometimes we see that it play out across the metro. No one can say

1343
01:49:31,700 --> 01:49:37,160
for sure unless it's happened to them. Some people, you know, aren't sharing that publicly. And,

1344
01:49:37,160 --> 01:49:41,880
And you know, there's no process unless it fits into the federal state or somebody can

1345
01:49:41,880 --> 01:49:42,480
file a lawsuit.

1346
01:49:42,820 --> 01:49:47,540
And we've seen that recently with some lawsuits covered by the A.J.C. with some businesses,

1347
01:49:47,720 --> 01:49:49,320
not here in Tucker, but in other places.

1348
01:49:50,460 --> 01:49:54,840
Thomas, you talked about the federal and state laws that are in place and explained those

1349
01:49:54,840 --> 01:49:55,460
quite well.

1350
01:49:56,080 --> 01:49:59,360
In fact, that was a big concern of some former council members.

1351
01:50:00,220 --> 01:50:05,940
And so if you look at the ordinance, proposed ordinance, draft ordinance, you'll see that

1352
01:50:05,940 --> 01:50:10,080
But we will say if this is a federal or state law, it goes there.

1353
01:50:10,360 --> 01:50:11,920
No double jeopardy.

1354
01:50:12,380 --> 01:50:16,460
We'll be there to help guide that with a hearing officer to say here so you go to here

1355
01:50:16,460 --> 01:50:20,560
so you refer to, but that'll be theirs.

1356
01:50:20,980 --> 01:50:24,580
Fair Housing Act, you know, exceptions are included as well.

1357
01:50:25,180 --> 01:50:30,220
That falls under state and federal laws, so people were worried about that, right?

1358
01:50:30,340 --> 01:50:32,280
I have a room in my house and I want to run it out.

1359
01:50:32,640 --> 01:50:35,200
Well, under Fair Housing Act, you can do that, right?

1360
01:50:35,200 --> 01:50:41,720
you can do that. And it doesn't limit, you know, maximum number of occupants. I know we've had

1361
01:50:41,720 --> 01:50:46,860
that discussion here with us. Does it impede economic development? Does it make businesses think

1362
01:50:46,860 --> 01:50:52,160
twice about locating here? Conversations we had, you know, most companies have their own policies

1363
01:50:52,160 --> 01:50:58,280
that they follow. Companies are in competitive environment, recruitment and retention, younger,

1364
01:50:58,640 --> 01:51:03,960
new generation of employees are looking for this type of thing. And then there's not been a mass

1365
01:51:03,960 --> 01:51:09,020
exodus from any city that's adopted one of these so I think we always have

1366
01:51:09,020 --> 01:51:14,880
these what ifs what if what if and I'm glad that we do that but you know there's

1367
01:51:14,880 --> 01:51:18,000
also a way of being extreme with that as well well this burden small

1368
01:51:18,000 --> 01:51:22,840
businesses yeah there is that concern for some people you know it could be

1369
01:51:22,840 --> 01:51:26,240
cost-saving because maybe you have a local process to go through and you're

1370
01:51:26,240 --> 01:51:31,400
not having to hire that lawyer and go through a lawsuit sometimes you can

1371
01:51:31,400 --> 01:51:37,580
resolve conflicts quicker, city recommends and pays for mediation, mediation, very important.

1372
01:51:37,820 --> 01:51:42,340
It's a complaint driven process, so no one's going out looking for these things, right?

1373
01:51:42,460 --> 01:51:48,640
You're coming in and there's a filing fee, there's a sworn statement, there's a hearing officer

1374
01:51:48,640 --> 01:51:50,980
to review to protect against frivolous claims.

1375
01:51:51,300 --> 01:51:53,960
Some small business owners said yeah, they would welcome a process.

1376
01:51:54,700 --> 01:51:59,860
They also requested a lot of them said, you know, it would nice to have resources and

1377
01:51:59,860 --> 01:52:04,860
educational type, you know, I'm a restaurant tour. This isn't my thing. But if

1378
01:52:04,860 --> 01:52:07,780
there's some education classes that there's somewhere you can point me or

1379
01:52:07,780 --> 01:52:10,960
their resources, I'd like to be able to start to do that with my employees.

1380
01:52:11,600 --> 01:52:15,120
People talk about Georgia being a right-to-work state. That was brought up. That has

1381
01:52:15,120 --> 01:52:21,100
more to do with unions. Georgia and Al will at will employment state. That yeah,

1382
01:52:21,220 --> 01:52:25,480
you can be terminated without warning. How do we express the intent to be more

1383
01:52:25,480 --> 01:52:30,340
educational and compliance versus punishment. That was a big conversation we

1384
01:52:30,340 --> 01:52:33,720
talked about the role of mediation and it's a registered mediator as you'll

1385
01:52:33,720 --> 01:52:37,640
see in the proposed ordinance so so mediators have to register with the state

1386
01:52:38,540 --> 01:52:43,700
so if that process there optional workshop education once per year provide

1387
01:52:43,700 --> 01:52:49,060
resources on a city website maybe we have a page like some of the others do. Mesa

1388
01:52:49,060 --> 01:52:54,540
Arizona has an excellent one by the way that we looked at FAQs process forms and

1389
01:52:54,540 --> 01:52:59,960
And then, you know, the ordinance, yeah, it's an ordinance, there's going to be a punishment,

1390
01:53:00,280 --> 01:53:00,400
right?

1391
01:53:00,640 --> 01:53:02,000
I mean, that's what an ordinance is about.

1392
01:53:02,140 --> 01:53:05,680
So you got grasses, 12 feet, you know, there's something you got to do about that.

1393
01:53:06,020 --> 01:53:11,060
So this one, very, very, and we'll go into the detail of that in a minute, but it's up

1394
01:53:11,060 --> 01:53:11,780
to, right?

1395
01:53:11,880 --> 01:53:13,020
So some said, here's your fine.

1396
01:53:13,320 --> 01:53:13,840
Here's your fine.

1397
01:53:14,100 --> 01:53:19,520
Well, municipal losses, you can only find $1,000, it could be $1,000 a day, right?

1398
01:53:19,640 --> 01:53:21,880
For some cases, but that's not what we're talking about here.

1399
01:53:22,340 --> 01:53:23,180
It's up to, right?

1400
01:53:23,180 --> 01:53:29,040
up to 500 first offends up to a thousand and there's also an in lieu of option and

1401
01:53:29,040 --> 01:53:33,440
lieu of being a corrective or compliance action plan, right? I made a mistake

1402
01:53:33,440 --> 01:53:37,940
here's what I'm going to do moving forward. How do we address a variety of

1403
01:53:37,940 --> 01:53:42,540
religious organizations located in Tucker and to be more inclusive by that

1404
01:53:42,540 --> 01:53:47,440
definition? A lot of other ordinances just use the IRS definition so as you'll

1405
01:53:47,440 --> 01:53:52,200
see ours is expanded because we have a lot of different religious

1406
01:53:52,200 --> 01:53:57,660
organizations here, religious social service agencies, schools, and so we wanted to make

1407
01:53:57,660 --> 01:54:00,280
sure that we were inclusive of all faiths as well.

1408
01:54:00,940 --> 01:54:03,880
And there's also protections there if you don't have a faith, right?

1409
01:54:05,200 --> 01:54:09,360
Concerns about passing upcoming Supreme Court rulings on whether they applied with the public

1410
01:54:09,360 --> 01:54:14,600
accommodation law to compelling artists to speak or stay silent, violating the free speech

1411
01:54:14,600 --> 01:54:15,660
clause of the First Amendment.

1412
01:54:16,300 --> 01:54:18,700
You're going to see a lot of that coming up in the news.

1413
01:54:18,700 --> 01:54:23,180
everybody talks about the Baker, everybody talks about that in Colorado.

1414
01:54:23,860 --> 01:54:29,140
We know that sometimes the Supreme Court narrowly gives their rulings.

1415
01:54:29,740 --> 01:54:35,060
And so just like any other ordinance, if there is a decision that's made,

1416
01:54:35,780 --> 01:54:38,240
we may have to update our ordinance based on those rulings.

1417
01:54:38,240 --> 01:54:40,000
We've had to do that before with state law.

1418
01:54:40,920 --> 01:54:43,800
And we've had to do that before with other ordinances.

1419
01:54:43,800 --> 01:54:49,660
And then, the last but not least, we did this to ourselves as well, a myriad of scenarios.

1420
01:54:50,280 --> 01:54:50,380
Right?

1421
01:54:50,740 --> 01:54:51,280
What if this?

1422
01:54:51,480 --> 01:54:52,020
What if this?

1423
01:54:52,140 --> 01:54:52,620
What if this?

1424
01:54:52,760 --> 01:54:53,320
What if that?

1425
01:54:54,840 --> 01:54:55,240
Yes.

1426
01:54:55,940 --> 01:55:01,540
And Ted Vega got tired of me calling him with all these scenarios, and he said that every

1427
01:55:01,540 --> 01:55:05,040
time one of them came up, and I appreciate you taking those calls, and it's serious.

1428
01:55:05,260 --> 01:55:08,840
I am joking, but it is serious because everybody says, what if this happens?

1429
01:55:09,040 --> 01:55:09,780
What if that happens?

1430
01:55:10,540 --> 01:55:13,340
It's a complaint driven process, right?

1431
01:55:14,440 --> 01:55:17,140
There's no certainty under any ordinance that we have.

1432
01:55:17,400 --> 01:55:20,180
Nothing is ever pure, these are hypotheticals.

1433
01:55:20,480 --> 01:55:22,200
There's always, he started asking me questions.

1434
01:55:22,240 --> 01:55:23,600
Always additional circumstances.

1435
01:55:23,600 --> 01:55:25,880
And I said, well, here's the scenario somebody gave me.

1436
01:55:26,520 --> 01:55:30,960
And then, you know, not every ordinance goes through such a process, right?

1437
01:55:31,200 --> 01:55:32,620
Sometimes we just have to have faith of that.

1438
01:55:32,720 --> 01:55:33,640
It's like a zoning ordinance.

1439
01:55:33,820 --> 01:55:35,000
We all vote on zoning.

1440
01:55:35,500 --> 01:55:39,060
And we always, you know, it's uncertain, right?

1441
01:55:39,060 --> 01:55:41,600
And it's scary because we're making those decisions.

1442
01:55:41,800 --> 01:55:45,360
And I think there's a similarity probably here as well.

1443
01:55:46,000 --> 01:55:50,340
So our recommendation, the working group looked at all of it.

1444
01:55:50,520 --> 01:55:52,820
We wanted to be sure it focused on equity, inclusion,

1445
01:55:52,880 --> 01:55:55,060
and compliance, similar to the resolution

1446
01:55:55,060 --> 01:55:56,880
and had those tones as well.

1447
01:55:58,500 --> 01:56:00,440
Warning complaints like Andrea said,

1448
01:56:00,640 --> 01:56:04,220
good faith discussion, mediation, voluntary resolutions.

1449
01:56:05,080 --> 01:56:08,360
So Derek, when we talked about naming it,

1450
01:56:08,360 --> 01:56:14,980
non-discrimination was so negative right it's negative so equitable and inclusive practices

1451
01:56:14,980 --> 01:56:22,000
so we looked at the name equitable and inclusive practices you have your draft here I'm

1452
01:56:22,000 --> 01:56:24,960
just going to highlight some things that are a little different than some of the others

1453
01:56:24,960 --> 01:56:33,840
people may have have seen before or looked at and I'll start that one on page 7 so we start

1454
01:56:33,840 --> 01:56:39,400
with definitions, we start with intent. First thing is hearing officer, we really thought

1455
01:56:39,400 --> 01:56:44,020
that this person needs to know their stuff, right? We're really, really lying on them.

1456
01:56:44,080 --> 01:56:48,320
We are hearing officers already that work through processes here in our legal system

1457
01:56:48,320 --> 01:56:51,360
for the city. So it should be a member of the State Bar of Georgia and good standing

1458
01:56:51,360 --> 01:56:57,980
and a practicing attorney for at least five years, mediator. We did not have definitions

1459
01:56:57,980 --> 01:57:03,320
for mediator or mediation. And some small business owners said, you know, is that binding? Tell

1460
01:57:03,320 --> 01:57:07,500
me about mediation. They were very curious about it. They didn't understand it. So we thought,

1461
01:57:07,580 --> 01:57:12,560
okay, we're going to put definitions in here about mediation and also perhaps that's a resource.

1462
01:57:12,780 --> 01:57:18,220
You know, what is it? How does it work? So the mediators third party registered with the Georgia

1463
01:57:18,220 --> 01:57:23,240
Office of Dispute Resolution. So that's different than the other ordinances. Our ordinance, you know,

1464
01:57:23,260 --> 01:57:30,200
the state would recognize our list of mediators that we would work with Ted and Tammy if this would

1465
01:57:30,200 --> 01:57:34,140
pass to put that together for them.

1466
01:57:34,320 --> 01:57:36,480
And then 15 religious organizations,

1467
01:57:37,340 --> 01:57:39,460
entities which include are not limited churches,

1468
01:57:39,860 --> 01:57:42,720
mosques, synagogues, temples, non-denominational

1469
01:57:42,720 --> 01:57:46,520
ministries, inter-denominational mission organizations,

1470
01:57:46,800 --> 01:57:48,800
faith-based social agencies, religious schools,

1471
01:57:49,180 --> 01:57:50,880
other entities whose principal purpose

1472
01:57:50,880 --> 01:57:54,220
is to study practice and advancement of religion.

1473
01:57:56,500 --> 01:58:06,080
We decided to call anybody who had a complaint filed against them the respondent because some people, you know, we thought that sounded better.

1474
01:58:06,200 --> 01:58:08,720
They're responding to that complaint, other ordinances.

1475
01:58:09,500 --> 01:58:11,360
What was the other term that they used?

1476
01:58:13,160 --> 01:58:15,660
Accused or something, right? We want to make sure.

1477
01:58:16,180 --> 01:58:17,620
And then verifiable delivery.

1478
01:58:19,080 --> 01:58:22,840
To add thanks for that when we're starting to put that in all of our ordinances, meaning

1479
01:58:22,840 --> 01:58:25,780
there's many different ways that people can be notified.

1480
01:58:26,700 --> 01:58:31,100
One thing to point out that I don't think anybody pays attention to, but we did civil

1481
01:58:31,100 --> 01:58:37,160
rights declared, this is on page 8 guys, the right of an otherwise qualified person.

1482
01:58:37,360 --> 01:58:40,700
We're not saying the person has to be qualified first, right?

1483
01:58:40,980 --> 01:58:44,640
So the right of an otherwise qualified person to be free from discrimination.

1484
01:58:47,280 --> 01:58:53,120
Let's go to exceptions, exception number one, religious organization that employs an

1485
01:58:53,120 --> 01:58:56,140
individual to perform work connected with the organization.

1486
01:58:57,400 --> 01:59:01,300
That insists that the employee adhere to the tenants of the religious organization as

1487
01:59:01,300 --> 01:59:02,500
a condition of employment.

1488
01:59:02,640 --> 01:59:06,500
We're not saying they have to be the same religion, right, so there are some laws that do.

1489
01:59:06,920 --> 01:59:12,880
This expands upon that and just says you're hiring somebody to do any work at your religious

1490
01:59:12,880 --> 01:59:19,160
organization, you know, and you expect them to follow the tenets of your religion.

1491
01:59:19,700 --> 01:59:23,740
It doesn't prohibit them from limiting their accommodations, advantages, facilities,

1492
01:59:23,960 --> 01:59:24,940
membership, or privileges.

1493
01:59:25,300 --> 01:59:25,900
That's number two.

1494
01:59:26,920 --> 01:59:32,420
Number four, a lot of these ordinances just say a business is not required to hire, right,

1495
01:59:32,640 --> 01:59:33,140
or retain.

1496
01:59:33,600 --> 01:59:34,720
We just said employee, right?

1497
01:59:35,320 --> 01:59:38,680
They don't have to employ on qualified or on competent personnel.

1498
01:59:38,680 --> 01:59:41,500
That one was different than the others.

1499
01:59:42,180 --> 01:59:43,460
Five and six are the same.

1500
01:59:44,920 --> 01:59:49,560
Number eight on page nine, we look at senior living.

1501
01:59:49,700 --> 01:59:51,600
We have some senior living facilities here.

1502
01:59:52,280 --> 01:59:57,260
It also places designated for people, individuals with disabilities.

1503
01:59:58,060 --> 01:59:59,260
Here is where we mentioned.

1504
01:59:59,260 --> 01:59:59,800
And so...

1505
02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:29,980
HUD, state of Georgia and Fair Housing Act. Again, these are exceptions. Beneficial pricing. Sometimes you have those senior discounts, veterans, students. So we put an exception in there for that. Place the public accommodations, single sex designated areas within those public accommodations. So a gym, a gym that has a single sex locker rooms. And then, you know, as long as it does not discriminate against other protected groups identified in the

1506
02:00:29,980 --> 02:00:33,440
ordinance and then last but not least unfortunately sometimes we have some

1507
02:00:33,440 --> 02:00:38,580
people who like to have a lot of fun at restaurants or other places and you

1508
02:00:38,580 --> 02:00:43,280
know sometimes somebody has to be kicked out of an establishment right for

1509
02:00:43,280 --> 02:00:46,840
their behavior the behavior towards employees and such and so there's a there's

1510
02:00:46,840 --> 02:00:53,080
a protection in there as well moving to enforcement something that was

1511
02:00:53,080 --> 02:00:57,120
different from some previous drafts you may have seen we talk about the

1512
02:00:57,120 --> 02:01:03,540
complaint form and that would be a resource that we would work on with our legal team to

1513
02:01:03,540 --> 02:01:04,400
get that up and running.

1514
02:01:04,580 --> 02:01:09,680
I know Andrea, you looked at some from other other placed jurisdictions and then they have

1515
02:01:09,680 --> 02:01:10,960
to do a sworn statement.

1516
02:01:11,160 --> 02:01:17,520
They just similar to what we do when we say we want to run for office, so they're doing

1517
02:01:17,520 --> 02:01:18,360
a sworn statement.

1518
02:01:18,660 --> 02:01:25,080
That's not in all of them, but it's in some number two is important there to avoid multiple

1519
02:01:25,080 --> 02:01:26,000
legal actions.

1520
02:01:26,000 --> 02:01:27,880
So, people were worried about that, right?

1521
02:01:28,140 --> 02:01:31,540
People, somebody's going to come here, they're going to go here, they're going to test it

1522
02:01:31,540 --> 02:01:32,240
out everywhere.

1523
02:01:32,820 --> 02:01:37,160
To avoid multiple legal actions, if the complainant has filed a complaint with a state or federal

1524
02:01:37,160 --> 02:01:42,380
agency or court alleging the same facts, the hearing officer will dismiss the city of Tucker

1525
02:01:42,380 --> 02:01:46,560
complaint to allow the appropriate agencies or court to address the allegations.

1526
02:01:47,360 --> 02:01:51,760
Number three, if the complaint states a claim that would be a violation of existing state

1527
02:01:51,760 --> 02:01:58,180
or federal law, or as an jurisdiction of those agencies, they'll also help refer that complaint over.

1528
02:01:58,460 --> 02:02:04,400
And referring just means, you know, we're not making them take it, we're not saying it, we're going to give a pathway.

1529
02:02:04,980 --> 02:02:06,740
Here's where you should go. It's not here.

1530
02:02:08,340 --> 02:02:15,000
But most people might feel more comfortable coming into City Hall, right, to ask those questions, or work through the city,

1531
02:02:15,520 --> 02:02:19,620
and may not know about other places for them to go.

1532
02:02:19,620 --> 02:02:24,060
And we had a case like that previously,

1533
02:02:24,560 --> 02:02:27,720
but we didn't have a process in place for it.

1534
02:02:28,760 --> 02:02:31,340
Another thing that is different down here.

1535
02:02:32,360 --> 02:02:35,000
Number nine, I know Decatur does this as well.

1536
02:02:36,860 --> 02:02:40,160
Having a city pay for the maximum of six hours

1537
02:02:40,160 --> 02:02:44,100
of mediation, showing that that's important to us.

1538
02:02:44,240 --> 02:02:46,320
And as Andrea said, if people can't

1539
02:02:46,320 --> 02:02:50,100
I saw something in six hours and they're not going to solve it.

1540
02:02:52,220 --> 02:02:54,020
The mediation should be completed.

1541
02:02:54,160 --> 02:02:58,980
So the mediator, Ted talked to us about, you've got to let us know whether it's successful

1542
02:02:58,980 --> 02:02:59,860
or not, right?

1543
02:03:00,220 --> 02:03:01,740
The mediation is successful or not.

1544
02:03:01,940 --> 02:03:05,300
That's number 10 or

1545
02:03:07,860 --> 02:03:08,460
12.

1546
02:03:09,340 --> 02:03:10,720
That's the same as some others.

1547
02:03:11,700 --> 02:03:16,860
Number 13 just allows the hearing officer to be able to advise unacceptable evidence or rules

1548
02:03:16,860 --> 02:03:21,860
for subvenient evidence, and then just some differences here that we talked about again.

1549
02:03:22,280 --> 02:03:27,320
So let's say it goes through the process and within 10 business days of the conclusion

1550
02:03:27,320 --> 02:03:30,240
of a hearing, the hearing officer can dismiss it, right?

1551
02:03:30,680 --> 02:03:37,580
So it worked out, it failed to state the fact sufficient to evoke any kind of disciplinary

1552
02:03:37,580 --> 02:03:38,080
action.

1553
02:03:38,800 --> 02:03:46,080
B, if there is a violation, a person or a business, could be found subject to a civil

1554
02:03:46,080 --> 02:03:54,440
penalty of up to $500 again important to our group to say up to for the first violation

1555
02:03:54,440 --> 02:04:01,580
and up to $1,000 for each subsequent violation and then in addition to or enlu of that you

1556
02:04:01,580 --> 02:04:06,240
can impose or request a corrective action plan for future compliance I know Thomas that

1557
02:04:06,240 --> 02:04:10,500
was one that was really really important to you because of the work that you do and what

1558
02:04:10,500 --> 02:04:19,540
you see day in and day out there. 17 you know the parties they don't like the

1559
02:04:19,540 --> 02:04:23,620
final decision and there's 30 days they can go to the Superior Court of

1560
02:04:23,620 --> 02:04:29,540
Decad County that's similar to other other ordinances. Part two on page 11

1561
02:04:29,540 --> 02:04:35,400
holds us accountable right at our HR practices. We talked to Tammy about that in

1562
02:04:35,400 --> 02:04:41,820
Ted, and Tammy has, we've got a handbook that we use, but we're also in the process

1563
02:04:41,820 --> 02:04:44,260
of hiring an HR manager.

1564
02:04:44,960 --> 02:04:49,880
That was important to folks because, quite frankly, Don Serino said, you know, I don't

1565
02:04:49,880 --> 02:04:56,840
want my taxpayer money going, you know, because we didn't have practices in place, procedures

1566
02:04:56,840 --> 02:04:57,840
in place, and we do.

1567
02:04:59,820 --> 02:05:04,000
Part three, I haven't, we have an XX there, part one of this ordinance will take effect,

1568
02:05:04,000 --> 02:05:09,960
You know, so many days after passage, that's really, you know, can we get some information

1569
02:05:09,960 --> 02:05:10,960
up on the website?

1570
02:05:11,800 --> 02:05:17,840
Can we get it out to the businesses and their occupational tax certificates?

1571
02:05:18,480 --> 02:05:25,480
And you know, what is best in the function of the city to get that started if it passes?

1572
02:05:25,480 --> 02:05:32,200
is part four gives the city manager and city attorney

1573
02:05:32,200 --> 02:05:34,780
they can develop the administrative procedures

1574
02:05:34,780 --> 02:05:36,860
as necessary to give effect to the ordinance.

1575
02:05:38,060 --> 02:05:40,400
Economic development department and conjections

1576
02:05:40,400 --> 02:05:43,240
communications create and implement a plan

1577
02:05:43,240 --> 02:05:45,160
to inform businesses and residents in the city

1578
02:05:45,160 --> 02:05:47,440
of Tucker about the ordinance if it would pass.

1579
02:05:48,160 --> 02:05:50,820
And plan to include an educational opportunity at least

1580
02:05:50,820 --> 02:05:51,620
once per year.

1581
02:05:52,260 --> 02:05:53,900
And we talked about maybe partnering

1582
02:05:53,900 --> 02:05:59,720
with other business groups in Tucker to do that to help educate their small business owners.

1583
02:06:00,520 --> 02:06:05,800
And then this is similar to the resolution when we get out the occupational tax certificates

1584
02:06:05,800 --> 02:06:12,740
to have a copy of this distributed to every holder of that. And then the last part is just you know

1585
02:06:14,800 --> 02:06:20,920
our legal ease that we put in for every ordinance just saying if there's issues with one paragraph

1586
02:06:20,920 --> 02:06:25,020
sentence or clause, you know, it's declared unconstitutional, the whole thing doesn't get

1587
02:06:25,020 --> 02:06:25,220
thrown.

1588
02:06:27,710 --> 02:06:28,610
I know it fast.

1589
02:06:29,150 --> 02:06:35,110
I know we've been here for a while, so we'll get this to Bonnie, for you to put up

1590
02:06:35,110 --> 02:06:43,950
others to add it, just to review the draft ordinance, and just again, want to thank everybody,

1591
02:06:44,130 --> 02:06:47,070
thank everybody for their time and consideration and patience on this.

1592
02:06:47,630 --> 02:06:49,330
Carrie, did you want to say anything before we do questions?

1593
02:06:50,550 --> 02:06:51,470
Yes, thank you.

1594
02:06:51,470 --> 02:06:55,850
I am very proud of the process and thrilled to be a part of the group.

1595
02:06:56,870 --> 02:07:02,850
As you know, last fall's election was a tough time for this community and I believe this will bring us unity.

1596
02:07:04,330 --> 02:07:13,530
We have thoroughly reviewed a variety of opportunities here and I think this NDO is one of the best in the community.

1597
02:07:13,790 --> 02:07:18,370
It can make us city kind of a better city for what it's worth.

1598
02:07:19,030 --> 02:07:29,170
And finally, I think that it really solidifies what we can represent in Tucker to continue to

1599
02:07:29,170 --> 02:07:30,130
unify everyone.

1600
02:07:30,610 --> 02:07:36,830
And I want to thank Anne for her caring concerns for the community, how much time she's

1601
02:07:36,830 --> 02:07:38,310
been to get by in.

1602
02:07:38,670 --> 02:07:44,030
We spent a tremendous amount of time in our work session meetings and meeting with the open

1603
02:07:44,030 --> 02:07:46,770
door group and a variety of other key players.

1604
02:07:46,770 --> 02:07:56,870
I just want to thank all of them for their input and their commitment and their time and I want to urge mayor and council to move forward with this process.

1605
02:07:57,910 --> 02:07:58,610
Thank you.

1606
02:08:01,400 --> 02:08:13,180
Well, I have to add my thanks also to our fellow council members who have led the process but especially to community members who are willing as others have put it out to put in a lot of time and effort.

1607
02:08:14,860 --> 02:08:20,860
many of you on lots of other issues, so that's just this one, so thank you, we're grateful

1608
02:08:20,860 --> 02:08:21,320
for your work.

1609
02:08:21,780 --> 02:08:26,260
And also I'll say for respecting the process, respecting the need for a process.

1610
02:08:28,300 --> 02:08:38,380
We had in our original charter in order to protect minority views on the council, we had a provision

1611
02:08:38,380 --> 02:08:43,760
that allow anyone, council member, at any time, to add something to the agenda and cause

1612
02:08:43,760 --> 02:08:47,660
us to take it up and discuss it in act or not act or whatever.

1613
02:08:47,940 --> 02:08:51,300
Somewhere along the way, I think, as part of our charter review commission, we changed

1614
02:08:51,300 --> 02:08:51,960
that to two.

1615
02:08:52,200 --> 02:08:58,440
Just to keep it from, you know, we realize there was a lot of potential for a rogue act

1616
02:08:58,440 --> 02:09:03,920
or somebody who just had a burn or saddle, as they say, I'm going to get to you know well.

1617
02:09:06,380 --> 02:09:09,360
So we changed it to just to add a little bit of protection to that.

1618
02:09:10,080 --> 02:09:13,840
But that's been the case, and all along this time, any two members of council could have

1619
02:09:13,840 --> 02:09:14,280
got together.

1620
02:09:15,020 --> 02:09:18,040
It's sick of talking about it, and I'm sick of hearing about it, thinking about it, whatever

1621
02:09:18,520 --> 02:09:23,200
I want to force some action, and it's a credit that they have not, because there's a lot

1622
02:09:23,200 --> 02:09:23,760
of disagreement.

1623
02:09:24,480 --> 02:09:29,720
There's a lot of open questions, there's a lot of, I think, hypotheticals are what we do in

1624
02:09:29,720 --> 02:09:33,140
in whatever kind of ordinance is owning or contracts,

1625
02:09:33,140 --> 02:09:36,880
all the stuff we do, we ask, what if and what about

1626
02:09:36,880 --> 02:09:40,940
and suppose that and we have to go through those things.

1627
02:09:41,280 --> 02:09:45,520
So I have questions that I want to ask this is kind of our

1628
02:09:45,520 --> 02:09:48,860
time for council members to ask our fellow council members

1629
02:09:48,860 --> 02:09:51,620
about the process and the ordinance and the thinking

1630
02:09:52,020 --> 02:09:55,820
so that we can kind of understand the conclusions

1631
02:09:55,820 --> 02:09:59,620
and are we all in some kind of consensus about them.

1632
02:10:00,200 --> 02:10:03,620
So, it's sort of like that organized it a little bit

1633
02:10:03,620 --> 02:10:05,300
so that we're not just all over the place,

1634
02:10:05,580 --> 02:10:08,880
and I'm gonna suggest that we start with kind of questions

1635
02:10:08,880 --> 02:10:11,520
about the process, you've heard a lot of it described.

1636
02:10:12,940 --> 02:10:14,700
But about what you all did,

1637
02:10:15,500 --> 02:10:17,100
how you came to certain conclusions,

1638
02:10:17,640 --> 02:10:18,980
did you consider other things,

1639
02:10:19,020 --> 02:10:21,240
what was the discussion, that sort of thing.

1640
02:10:21,880 --> 02:10:25,220
So, Noel, if that's okay with you,

1641
02:10:25,220 --> 02:10:27,560
or do you have something to interject at this point?

1642
02:10:29,340 --> 02:10:33,280
Well, I just wanted to thank everybody for working hard on this

1643
02:10:33,280 --> 02:10:37,880
frank. It was a long process and I know that

1644
02:10:37,880 --> 02:10:42,040
Anne and her group came together and put that together and I would gladly

1645
02:10:42,040 --> 02:10:45,180
second this in a heartbeat. I just wanted to let you know where I was on it.

1646
02:10:45,620 --> 02:10:50,140
Process, not process. It's been in the wing for a while.

1647
02:10:50,560 --> 02:10:53,940
I think the current iteration of the organets

1648
02:10:53,940 --> 02:11:01,320
is written very well. I think that Andrea and Sandra and Thomas and Derek did their due diligence

1649
02:11:01,320 --> 02:11:06,140
and walk through it. I think Ted walked through it. I don't see there's a lot more left to do,

1650
02:11:06,360 --> 02:11:11,260
but to put it on our docket and let the public take a good look at it. It's all I have to say.

1651
02:11:11,740 --> 02:11:12,120
Thank you.

1652
02:11:14,250 --> 02:11:23,310
Roger. Yeah, I want to kind of join into well, but I met with Virginia and Kara for

1653
02:11:23,310 --> 02:11:29,430
lunch last week and it was my first eyes on this document. I know Andy sent me a new one today

1654
02:11:29,430 --> 02:11:34,450
but I wasn't able to see it or print it at nap time since you found out I wasn't going to be there.

1655
02:11:35,390 --> 02:11:45,050
It was very comprehensively written and you know I found a few vagaries that we'll talk about

1656
02:11:45,530 --> 02:11:52,490
that I think need to be sharpened but what an incredible document and a large document and

1657
02:11:52,490 --> 02:11:55,370
and I want to thank Ann and Karen Virginia

1658
02:11:55,370 --> 02:11:57,790
and certainly Derek Andrew and Tom

1659
02:11:58,290 --> 02:12:01,030
who were very eloquent tonight

1660
02:12:01,690 --> 02:12:05,250
because especially Tom, I wasn't a huge fan

1661
02:12:05,250 --> 02:12:08,170
of codifying this type of thing

1662
02:12:08,590 --> 02:12:11,190
because I was one of the guys that Tom pointed out

1663
02:12:11,190 --> 02:12:13,430
that said, hey, we got federal state laws

1664
02:12:13,430 --> 02:12:18,530
but obviously I know that 15 and under it doesn't apply.

1665
02:12:18,530 --> 02:12:26,230
So ultimately where I wanted to see a document that said, we love everyone, welcome to Tucker,

1666
02:12:26,750 --> 02:12:34,110
it's not practical the way this document is practical, and I'm hoping in the introspection

1667
02:12:34,110 --> 02:12:41,730
that I'm seeing this through the eyes of someone who doesn't think to discriminate so that in that

1668
02:12:41,730 --> 02:12:48,210
effect that's why I didn't think we needed to talk, but I guess others do, and I'm very, very happy

1669
02:12:48,210 --> 02:12:53,490
with all the work everyone put into this because it was an incredible amount and it's obvious in the

1670
02:12:53,490 --> 02:12:56,570
product. So thank you and I'm with Noel.

1671
02:12:59,080 --> 02:13:03,640
So questions about the process, anything that

1672
02:13:05,160 --> 02:13:08,040
has gone over about what they did and all that.

1673
02:13:10,910 --> 02:13:13,830
There was a lot of talk about over the course of

1674
02:13:13,830 --> 02:13:21,250
several years, whether we're authorized as a city to regulate businesses in this kind of way.

1675
02:13:24,170 --> 02:13:28,430
I had a conversation with Ted about it, and if I can put words in his mouth, I think

1676
02:13:28,430 --> 02:13:35,090
what he told me was very affirmatively, we don't know that it's the laws on clear

1677
02:13:35,090 --> 02:13:35,410
on it.

1678
02:13:35,550 --> 02:13:36,530
Did you all discuss that?

1679
02:13:37,010 --> 02:13:37,390
Did you,

1680
02:13:39,700 --> 02:13:44,220
how did you come down on, we don't know if it's legal, but we want it forward

1681
02:13:44,220 --> 02:13:44,740
to head anyway.

1682
02:13:47,090 --> 02:13:47,690
So we did.

1683
02:13:48,270 --> 02:13:53,790
And he said, you know, it's gray, and that's what we heard from other city attorneys and

1684
02:13:53,790 --> 02:14:00,750
other cities as well. And we decided that that was okay with us and that we would move forward

1685
02:14:00,750 --> 02:14:07,030
forward with that. We've got attorneys and mediators and on our working group and we've seen

1686
02:14:07,030 --> 02:14:13,090
other city attorneys say the same thing and we appreciate it his honesty and we know that he has

1687
02:14:13,670 --> 02:14:17,870
good experience working with cities across the state and we understood that but we thought

1688
02:14:17,870 --> 02:14:20,990
But, you know, it was time to do this anyway.

1689
02:14:30,480 --> 02:14:34,880
I heard some things that I want to ask you if I heard it right, but the question that

1690
02:14:34,880 --> 02:14:40,860
I had written for myself was, how do we assess the size and the scale of the problem now?

1691
02:14:41,860 --> 02:14:42,580
In other words,

1692
02:14:44,660 --> 02:14:51,810
usually, I don't know, maybe I won't care, I expect we would have such

1693
02:14:51,810 --> 02:14:55,150
an ordinance as a response to an identified problem.

1694
02:14:55,910 --> 02:14:59,790
It's out there. It's creating fronts to help.

1695
02:15:07,520 --> 02:15:28,220
I think we talked a little bit about in the report, you know, we don't have a process, right? So how do you guys shake in your heads, you know, how do we know? We hear things, you know, people shared their experiences with us.

1696
02:15:30,040 --> 02:15:37,440
We talked about our working group had experienced some things as well, but we don't have a process

1697
02:15:37,440 --> 02:15:43,480
to say, quantifiably, there's been 20 issues of this, this is what they ranged in.

1698
02:15:44,500 --> 02:15:47,100
Quite frankly, we don't have that process, so we don't know.

1699
02:15:47,300 --> 02:15:51,640
We do know from other cities as well, I think City of Atlanta's had four or five.

1700
02:15:52,140 --> 02:15:56,020
Other cities have had people file complaints, but it's not gone through the entire process.

1701
02:15:56,020 --> 02:16:02,320
There's either been a mediation or they have said, you know what, this doesn't fall under this, right?

1702
02:16:02,480 --> 02:16:09,180
But I cannot tell you, yeah, we have, we have this happens once a week in Tucker, you know, we don't know.

1703
02:16:11,800 --> 02:16:20,610
So I think to the question of we don't know, maybe we don't know specifics, but I think it's really

1704
02:16:20,610 --> 02:16:25,110
important that these are, we recognize that these are called protected classes for a reason,

1705
02:16:25,110 --> 02:16:29,170
and they're called protected classes because historically they have not been protected.

1706
02:16:29,670 --> 02:16:35,750
They have not received the same rights and treatments as people that don't fall into those classes.

1707
02:16:36,130 --> 02:16:43,630
And so while we may not have specific detailed data because often when people have raised their voice,

1708
02:16:43,950 --> 02:16:48,330
they have been further penalized for raising their voice about the things that have happened to them,

1709
02:16:48,750 --> 02:16:54,550
that part of this which I appreciate so much how you all included the inclusive language,

1710
02:16:54,550 --> 02:17:00,370
the equitable language that we are. We have to think about that too. Qualitative data is important

1711
02:17:00,370 --> 02:17:05,970
and we know from quantitative data outside of our city that this happens and so giving people

1712
02:17:05,970 --> 02:17:12,270
a process and a voice and I really appreciate the framework for mediation. I hope that that's a

1713
02:17:12,270 --> 02:17:18,990
process that we can apply to other components of our ordinances and think about that. So I just want

1714
02:17:18,990 --> 02:17:23,730
to say that I think we really have to recognize that these are protected classes who have historically

1715
02:17:23,730 --> 02:17:27,870
been harmed in various ways and so we really need a process for them to be able to safely

1716
02:17:27,870 --> 02:17:32,350
share their experiences if they are happening, which they probably are.

1717
02:17:33,910 --> 02:17:41,450
Thanks. I'm trying for myself to avoid making statements or debating the issue. I really

1718
02:17:42,310 --> 02:17:51,330
just have a lot of questions and I see some as I have problematic aspects in making law to

1719
02:17:51,330 --> 02:17:55,810
a dress, in this case, an issue that maybe for good reasons, maybe for real reasons,

1720
02:17:56,510 --> 02:18:02,030
we don't know the size and the scale, so we don't know whether our law would address

1721
02:18:02,030 --> 02:18:05,430
it or make it worse or have some unintended consequences.

1722
02:18:06,450 --> 02:18:14,490
So did I hear somebody in the presentation say that we need to pass the law to create a process

1723
02:18:14,490 --> 02:18:17,710
to figure out if we have a problem, is that?

1724
02:18:17,710 --> 02:18:24,170
I don't, I'm not trying to put words on anybody's mouth, but I think I heard somebody say something to them.

1725
02:18:24,250 --> 02:18:28,690
No, I think it's more, the process is there if there is an issue, right?

1726
02:18:28,850 --> 02:18:32,350
It's not to create issues, it's if there is an issue.

1727
02:18:32,510 --> 02:18:39,850
The federal government has the process, they didn't do that to create issues or other states have this process as well.

1728
02:18:40,510 --> 02:18:46,710
But I don't think it's, let's do it so we find out if we have issues, it's there if we need it.

1729
02:18:46,710 --> 02:18:49,710
We have similar ordinances that are there if we need it.

1730
02:18:50,510 --> 02:18:51,970
Can you give me an example of that?

1731
02:19:01,140 --> 02:19:07,700
We don't have, I mean we didn't have as far as I know, rampant scooters all over our city.

1732
02:19:08,240 --> 02:19:14,260
But we've all passed an ordinance regulating that behavior because of the potential.

1733
02:19:20,580 --> 02:19:22,620
Did you all ask

1734
02:19:25,310 --> 02:19:30,270
or investigate on this issue of all these federal laws and some state laws

1735
02:19:30,270 --> 02:19:33,570
that have a threshold less than 15 employees.

1736
02:19:36,550 --> 02:19:38,930
Did anybody investigate why those laws are written that way?

1737
02:19:39,050 --> 02:19:42,130
I mean, they've been coming up on 60 years

1738
02:19:42,130 --> 02:19:45,370
in the case of Title VII, dozens of them,

1739
02:19:45,650 --> 02:19:48,830
the ADA, all these thresholds.

1740
02:19:49,590 --> 02:19:53,030
Are you saying that you conclude that that's a mistake

1741
02:19:53,030 --> 02:19:55,770
that we need to fix, or did anybody ask

1742
02:19:55,770 --> 02:19:58,690
or attempt to answer why those thresholds exist?

1743
02:19:59,950 --> 02:20:05,990
I see Thomas or Andrea looking like they're kind of wanting to get out of here for our council members. Thank you.

1744
02:20:08,220 --> 02:20:13,040
I didn't do any investigation on that. No, but I'd like to hear from our experts who talked about it.

1745
02:20:14,080 --> 02:20:18,660
Yeah. I mean, what they were in our working group. That's why I wanted it.

1746
02:20:18,820 --> 02:20:24,100
Yeah, but it's a council meeting. I'm trying to just because I don't want to have a whole room full of people talking about it.

1747
02:20:24,100 --> 02:20:27,800
I would ask that you allow them, because when we did the

1748
02:20:30,560 --> 02:20:33,660
friends of Tucker Path, we asked some questions to those folks.

1749
02:20:33,700 --> 02:20:34,180
Is that okay?

1750
02:20:35,060 --> 02:20:38,260
Thomas, why does this federal government have thresholds like that?

1751
02:20:38,400 --> 02:20:42,220
And is it a mistake that we need to fix, or is there some rationale we ought to consider?

1752
02:20:42,580 --> 02:20:47,980
Because in 1964, a lot of people didn't want to have a law regarding discrimination.

1753
02:20:49,100 --> 02:20:55,420
So, Title VII, originally it was going to be about race and ethnicity and other things,

1754
02:20:56,080 --> 02:21:00,480
and there's a large group that said we don't want any protection for against discrimination.

1755
02:21:02,200 --> 02:21:05,840
And so many got the broad idea that they're going to put a poison pill into it.

1756
02:21:06,480 --> 02:21:10,760
And the poison pill was, you know, why don't we also protect against discrimination based

1757
02:21:10,760 --> 02:21:11,140
on sex?

1758
02:21:11,680 --> 02:21:15,720
But that had the opposite, because then somebody made the argument, well think about

1759
02:21:15,720 --> 02:21:19,380
what your daughters think about, you know, the women in your life do you want them to

1760
02:21:19,380 --> 02:21:20,200
be discriminated against?

1761
02:21:20,640 --> 02:21:30,120
So the 15 was arbitrary, it was basically something to appease those who just didn't want

1762
02:21:30,120 --> 02:21:35,280
any discrimination law to say, okay, all right, well, you know, we can see that this will

1763
02:21:35,280 --> 02:21:41,580
apply to bigger employers and, you know, they did, and they also want to drive small employers

1764
02:21:41,580 --> 02:21:45,480
you know, into the whole process, because with Title VII,

1765
02:21:45,860 --> 02:21:48,220
your person goes files and complains with the EOC.

1766
02:21:49,580 --> 02:21:52,640
Well, they go to the EOC, and they file a charge of discrimination,

1767
02:21:53,340 --> 02:21:56,620
then it goes sent to the employer, and the employer has to do,

1768
02:21:56,660 --> 02:22:01,520
provide a position, statement, explaining why there was no discrimination.

1769
02:22:02,100 --> 02:22:05,120
And then, after that, then there may be some more investigation,

1770
02:22:07,000 --> 02:22:12,820
and the EOC can go ahead and file a lawsuit against that employer, or they can file

1771
02:22:14,660 --> 02:22:18,960
no finding of no cause, and then give the issue a right to seal letter, and the individual

1772
02:22:18,960 --> 02:22:21,260
can go and then bring their own lawsuit.

1773
02:22:21,680 --> 02:22:25,080
If it's going on for too long a period of time, the individual can say, you know what,

1774
02:22:25,240 --> 02:22:28,580
EOC, get out of my way, give me my right to seal letter.

1775
02:22:28,580 --> 02:22:34,660
So, the thought was, well, you know, we're going to go with 15, you know, as the threshold

1776
02:22:34,660 --> 02:22:39,180
is partly to get people to say, all right, well, we don't want any of this, but we'll

1777
02:22:39,180 --> 02:22:41,880
go with that, um, is compromised.

1778
02:22:42,380 --> 02:22:45,200
And, uh, you know, you're talking about something that was 1964.

1779
02:22:45,640 --> 02:22:52,100
Now, if you look at other states, they don't have, I can't think of what went off the

1780
02:22:52,100 --> 02:22:52,600
top of my head.

1781
02:22:52,600 --> 02:23:03,000
other states will have different thresholds. Title 7 is a floor. It's the minimum that has

1782
02:23:03,000 --> 02:23:08,880
to be done, but states can go and provide more protection than Title 7. So, you're looking

1783
02:23:08,880 --> 02:23:17,660
at something, you're looking at a law in 1964 where a lot of people didn't want it, a lot

1784
02:23:18,980 --> 02:23:24,300
Southern legislators voted against it. It wasn't a very popular thing but it was

1785
02:23:24,300 --> 02:23:28,340
the right thing to do. 15 was, you know, what can we do to get this thing passed

1786
02:23:28,340 --> 02:23:30,800
and that's, you know, over the gold wine and that's why you have it there.

1787
02:23:32,820 --> 02:23:34,020
So the

1788
02:23:34,020 --> 02:23:39,620
Navy burdens too, right? They wanted to, they thought maybe that process would be

1789
02:23:39,620 --> 02:23:43,060
a burden to a small business versus maybe a process like that.

1790
02:23:45,500 --> 02:23:46,300
So that was been on

1791
02:23:46,300 --> 02:23:49,320
in the books for 58 years since 1964.

1792
02:23:50,500 --> 02:23:54,040
Through periods where the presidency of both houses of Congress

1793
02:23:54,040 --> 02:23:57,380
were all held by one party or the other

1794
02:23:57,380 --> 02:23:59,600
and later by the other party, and it's been back and forth,

1795
02:23:59,700 --> 02:24:03,340
every conceivable combination that thresholds remained.

1796
02:24:04,480 --> 02:24:06,920
The poison pill or otherwise still

1797
02:24:09,670 --> 02:24:10,670
left wondering,

1798
02:24:12,250 --> 02:24:16,090
maybe there's some good reason why something like that exists.

1799
02:24:16,090 --> 02:24:22,350
this, maybe there's some good reason why states who have the latitude to make a different

1800
02:24:22,350 --> 02:24:27,990
threshold haven't gone down to one or zero and I think it has to do, I'm going to keep

1801
02:24:27,990 --> 02:24:29,370
asking questions, forgive me.

1802
02:24:30,450 --> 02:24:32,890
That's fine, I think some local ones started at five.

1803
02:24:33,330 --> 02:24:36,010
I remember Mesa, I think started at five in the way or more.

1804
02:24:36,350 --> 02:24:45,210
But are this proposal is for one, is that proposal to us, is every employer of every size,

1805
02:24:45,210 --> 02:24:47,410
There's no limits, no threshold.

1806
02:24:55,810 --> 02:25:01,370
Did you all talk, so it's been three years plus now that we've been having this conversation?

1807
02:25:02,510 --> 02:25:06,290
Have things in this regard deteriorated in those three years?

1808
02:25:06,510 --> 02:25:10,030
Now that it's been on the table, it's been on everybody's mind.

1809
02:25:10,830 --> 02:25:13,370
Are we better or worse about the same?

1810
02:25:14,630 --> 02:25:15,470
We don't know.

1811
02:25:16,810 --> 02:25:18,310
What's happened in recent history?

1812
02:25:20,580 --> 02:25:24,020
Well, I'd say it became a divisive issue, right?

1813
02:25:24,240 --> 02:25:26,700
So I think we're probably worse not having these types

1814
02:25:26,700 --> 02:25:30,500
of discussions that we put it off for quite a while, you know.

1815
02:25:30,720 --> 02:25:33,240
I don't know about the climate of, as discrimination,

1816
02:25:33,900 --> 02:25:35,240
been worse or not, right?

1817
02:25:35,640 --> 02:25:37,840
But I would say, that's what I mean.

1818
02:25:37,960 --> 02:25:40,920
Do we have any measure or any way to judge or since?

1819
02:25:41,320 --> 02:25:42,500
No, no.

1820
02:25:43,240 --> 02:25:46,780
I mean, again, I think the question is, are we talking

1821
02:25:46,780 --> 02:25:48,640
about locally or are we talking about regionally?

1822
02:25:48,700 --> 02:25:49,400
Are we talking about statewide?

1823
02:25:49,400 --> 02:25:56,120
I think there's been a slew of pretty discriminatory legislation that think goodness hasn't passed

1824
02:25:56,120 --> 02:26:00,020
around some of the protected classes that we're talking about in this ordinance.

1825
02:26:00,440 --> 02:26:06,100
So I do think that there, we don't, I think you said it so well, Derek,

1826
02:26:06,640 --> 02:26:10,620
that we don't want to, we want to have a process in place for when something does happen.

1827
02:26:11,760 --> 02:26:18,220
And maybe we will be blessed and nothing will happen to people.

1828
02:26:18,220 --> 02:26:24,020
but we give an opportunity. So I know there was a nearby city where somebody was discriminated

1829
02:26:24,020 --> 02:26:30,020
against based on their expressed gender, you know their gender expression and they had no

1830
02:26:30,020 --> 02:26:35,480
recourse because there wasn't anything in place. So I think and I really liked your kind of

1831
02:26:35,480 --> 02:26:40,580
summary that you had around kind of answering those questions because you said this gives a process

1832
02:26:40,580 --> 02:26:46,060
so it's not just social media or traditional media as the only way to adjudicate issues when they come up.

1833
02:26:47,950 --> 02:26:51,610
I mean, that was what we heard from small business owners and other people making

1834
02:26:54,100 --> 02:26:54,460
it.

1835
02:26:54,460 --> 02:27:02,660
So I heard, I read, assuming that the version you gave me tonight is the same or essentially

1836
02:27:02,660 --> 02:27:03,780
the same is what we had before.

1837
02:27:05,960 --> 02:27:11,020
But I've heard really kind of since the beginning of this conversation, three years ago, I heard

1838
02:27:11,020 --> 02:27:13,920
tonight plainly, this is everybody.

1839
02:27:14,440 --> 02:27:19,280
This is, this offers protections to everybody, we all fall into one or more of the groups

1840
02:27:19,280 --> 02:27:20,040
that are protected.

1841
02:27:21,680 --> 02:27:28,770
it's for all of us. I can't square that within the same breath, we talk about protected

1842
02:27:28,770 --> 02:27:35,370
classes and covered groups and all that. When we talk about groups and classes and

1843
02:27:35,370 --> 02:27:41,730
categories, we necessarily refer to them as if they're monoliths. If everybody who's

1844
02:27:41,730 --> 02:27:45,870
in this group thinks or feels or experiences the same thing because they're in that group.

1845
02:27:47,850 --> 02:27:53,250
So, throughout, I'll get to some questions when we talk about the ordinance, in particular,

1846
02:27:56,530 --> 02:28:02,230
is it everybody, do we need to name, I can't score that, give me some feedback.

1847
02:28:03,890 --> 02:28:09,130
I'm covered as part of everybody, right, so you could describe me according to my age

1848
02:28:09,130 --> 02:28:16,330
and my race and my sexual, whatever, I'm covered, so if I, are you saying I have a complaint,

1849
02:28:16,330 --> 02:28:21,130
I can file under this act just like anybody else in the room can.

1850
02:28:22,150 --> 02:28:25,210
If you felt you were being discriminated against one of these things.

1851
02:28:37,180 --> 02:28:40,880
So I mean, you've got some, you're welcome to do that.

1852
02:28:41,100 --> 02:28:43,960
So what protected group am I in?

1853
02:28:45,460 --> 02:28:47,640
I'm sorry, use myself as an example.

1854
02:28:48,600 --> 02:28:50,720
We can just Thomas or Matthew back there.

1855
02:28:51,040 --> 02:28:53,960
Well, I mean, explicitly obviously it's age, but it's also about

1856
02:28:53,960 --> 02:29:04,760
If somebody comes to you and says just the things you named and said, I'm not going to hire you because you're a white man over 40, then that is a discriminatory statement and you were discriminated against.

1857
02:29:05,340 --> 02:29:12,760
There are groups that meet a lot of categories that kind of systemically can be discriminated against.

1858
02:29:13,060 --> 02:29:18,920
But any person who follows under this could potentially be discriminated against.

1859
02:29:18,920 --> 02:29:23,140
I think your chances are lower but it could happen.

1860
02:29:24,340 --> 02:29:32,770
So is this for everybody or do we need to name groups and how do we deal with the idea

1861
02:29:32,770 --> 02:29:38,950
that what we really want is everybody just get along but we're going to call out this

1862
02:29:38,950 --> 02:29:45,230
group, it's illegal to discriminate against this group, it's illegal to discriminate against

1863
02:29:45,230 --> 02:29:48,830
that one, and we're adding to the list that the federal law calls out,

1864
02:29:51,440 --> 02:29:52,300
a group that has

1865
02:29:52,300 --> 02:29:59,720
been called in by the Bostock case. I'm just...

1866
02:30:00,020 --> 02:30:28,900
I'm going to be looking for some clarity on, are we talking about predictive groups or are we talking about everybody? I think everybody likes to say everybody, right? But there are some people who won't be covered under this. That's just a fact, right? Just like they aren't covered on the federal law, as well, or some of the state laws either. And then as I pointed out before, too, it's the right of an otherwise qualified person, right? As well. So there is some clarity. Yeah, there is some clarity.

1867
02:30:29,440 --> 02:30:33,480
some clarity there as well. So sure, not everybody has covered it.

1868
02:30:36,900 --> 02:30:43,610
That's a really important statement. We'll come back to it one day we'll debate all this.

1869
02:30:43,790 --> 02:30:53,530
I think, I think, you know, out loud people will say that, right? But it is discrimination based on these factors right here, sure.

1870
02:30:55,110 --> 02:31:08,070
And to understand thinking about the whole subject at a high level, this is about going forward,

1871
02:31:08,070 --> 02:31:13,230
making sure that these bad things don't happen, as opposed to corrective action for past

1872
02:31:13,230 --> 02:31:13,530
wrong.

1873
02:31:17,420 --> 02:31:21,720
Does that make sense? In other words, this applies to some action that I or

1874
02:31:21,720 --> 02:31:29,640
to rip over there might take tomorrow, as opposed to finding that the city has for some

1875
02:31:29,640 --> 02:31:35,540
time now engaged in bad behavior. This is not a time to address that, just what happens

1876
02:31:35,540 --> 02:31:40,780
from this day forward. Is that the ordinance when the ordinance would take effect?

1877
02:31:40,780 --> 02:31:41,520
And

1878
02:31:43,960 --> 02:31:48,120
I just want to say y'all have done such a great job on like delineating the time

1879
02:31:48,120 --> 02:31:49,180
that that process takes.

1880
02:31:49,380 --> 02:31:53,300
So I mean there is a very time bound from the data that occurs.

1881
02:31:53,720 --> 02:32:00,500
Like you've spelled out a time and a way for everybody involved in the conversation

1882
02:32:00,500 --> 02:32:01,680
to address that.

1883
02:32:01,680 --> 02:32:06,900
That's both enough time as well as not in perpetuity.

1884
02:32:07,180 --> 02:32:10,460
So I think there's a really nice balance in the process that y'all have worked out.

1885
02:32:10,460 --> 02:32:14,840
Well, and there was a discussion and Ted might be able to clarify this too, as well.

1886
02:32:15,340 --> 02:32:20,200
The majority of ordinances talked about 90 days, somebody has 90 days to file, right?

1887
02:32:22,320 --> 02:32:24,460
You know, I was like, come on, 30 days, let's get it done.

1888
02:32:24,760 --> 02:32:30,220
But our legal folks said 90 days is a good amount of time.

1889
02:32:30,820 --> 02:32:35,960
And then Ted, I don't know if it would be, you know, let's say something passes, it takes

1890
02:32:35,960 --> 02:32:39,460
effects of January 1, does the clock start there?

1891
02:32:39,940 --> 02:32:45,580
Or could somebody from the previous 88 days

1892
02:32:45,580 --> 02:32:47,800
come forward on January 1?

1893
02:32:49,400 --> 02:32:51,220
Was that what you were getting at?

1894
02:32:52,820 --> 02:32:57,200
It depends on what the ordinance will set the statute

1895
02:32:57,200 --> 02:32:59,040
and when it will be effective,

1896
02:32:59,720 --> 02:33:01,620
and whether it's grand, father, or not.

1897
02:33:03,040 --> 02:33:10,440
My question really has less to do with those nuances and more to do with, are we trying

1898
02:33:10,440 --> 02:33:19,060
to correct historical, long history, historical wrongs, structural, whatever may have been

1899
02:33:19,060 --> 02:33:20,720
the way of the world in the past.

1900
02:33:21,080 --> 02:33:24,420
We're not trying to go punish somebody for what they've been doing for the last ten years.

1901
02:33:24,940 --> 02:33:31,340
We're saying, hey, it's a new day and from some day going forward, this process exists

1902
02:33:31,340 --> 02:33:32,060
for someone to follow.

1903
02:33:32,660 --> 02:33:32,980
And

1904
02:33:35,630 --> 02:33:38,370
add on to that, just really quickly, because I think you mentioned this when you

1905
02:33:38,370 --> 02:33:42,430
were talking, but I know when we had our conversation, you spent a little bit more time on it.

1906
02:33:43,970 --> 02:33:48,190
You know, I've always heard that you grow the most when you make a mistake, right?

1907
02:33:48,570 --> 02:33:51,990
Learning from your mistakes is where you have growth.

1908
02:33:52,230 --> 02:33:56,990
And like, I so appreciate, Tom, you being like, you know, I wasn't on this side of it.

1909
02:33:57,050 --> 02:33:57,870
And now I am.

1910
02:33:58,050 --> 02:34:02,810
And we can all grow as individuals, and so I think the education opportunities that you all

1911
02:34:02,810 --> 02:34:09,930
have named in here are really good, and again, not mandatory, but something that gives

1912
02:34:09,930 --> 02:34:12,470
us more opportunity for more people to grow.

1913
02:34:12,690 --> 02:34:18,930
So I just wanted to add that in terms of it's not meant to be punitive solely, it's meant

1914
02:34:18,930 --> 02:34:21,450
to be able to be an opportunity for growth and reconciliation.

1915
02:34:24,230 --> 02:34:29,590
What alternatives to an ordinance did you guys consider?

1916
02:34:29,590 --> 02:34:33,910
or anything short of, or instead of the force of law

1917
02:34:33,910 --> 02:34:37,690
as Andrea put it, you know, you've heard me say,

1918
02:34:38,970 --> 02:34:41,970
that bottom government existed and forced the law, right?

1919
02:34:42,690 --> 02:34:45,430
Government can't love its neighbor, government can't,

1920
02:34:45,730 --> 02:34:47,570
I mean, at bottom, when we pass a law,

1921
02:34:47,790 --> 02:34:50,850
that law gets enforced with force.

1922
02:34:51,870 --> 02:34:55,150
So, is there any, did you consider any middle ground,

1923
02:34:55,170 --> 02:34:58,410
any other paths to reconciliation and anything

1924
02:34:58,410 --> 02:35:03,810
the city could do or provide or encourage, it would help resolve whatever issue might

1925
02:35:03,810 --> 02:35:08,630
come up, sort of passing a law with punitive outcomes.

1926
02:35:10,920 --> 02:35:14,840
No, I mean, we had the resolution, you had passed the resolution.

1927
02:35:15,160 --> 02:35:21,060
We thought it was a good first step and good intent, but to us the ordinance was the next

1928
02:35:29,400 --> 02:35:29,920
step.

1929
02:35:29,920 --> 02:35:30,780
or those other things,

1930
02:35:33,420 --> 02:35:40,040
right, to have those other steps in place, other types of compliance

1931
02:35:40,040 --> 02:35:40,620
in place.

1932
02:35:51,860 --> 02:35:52,840
Sorry, I thought I'd turn it on.

1933
02:35:55,220 --> 02:36:01,940
Organizing around what the NDO is about, if you just have a resolution, you're not institutionalizing

1934
02:36:02,530 --> 02:36:05,020
the process for people to come forward.

1935
02:36:05,720 --> 02:36:10,120
And that's one of the things that we heard over and over from the community.

1936
02:36:10,120 --> 02:36:12,760
And it is a balance when you have ordinances.

1937
02:36:13,020 --> 02:36:15,180
I mean, we've debated other things already this year.

1938
02:36:15,780 --> 02:36:18,940
You know, and in the past, the council has as well.

1939
02:36:19,840 --> 02:36:21,840
You know, there are several, you know,

1940
02:36:23,580 --> 02:36:26,620
control steps and ordinances that you have to weigh.

1941
02:36:27,120 --> 02:36:30,000
I think it's really important that right now,

1942
02:36:30,180 --> 02:36:32,840
this just changes the resolution.

1943
02:36:33,220 --> 02:36:34,260
It goes much further.

1944
02:36:37,010 --> 02:36:38,150
So, and I know it.

1945
02:36:38,150 --> 02:36:42,070
committee be willing to consider middle ground options?

1946
02:36:48,310 --> 02:36:49,210
We can hear them out.

1947
02:36:50,290 --> 02:36:51,270
I think we would.

1948
02:36:51,530 --> 02:36:52,190
I think we would listen.

1949
02:36:56,080 --> 02:37:01,000
Did you have any public hearings during your meeting time

1950
02:37:01,000 --> 02:37:02,960
where did you open anything to the public

1951
02:37:02,960 --> 02:37:05,040
to come offer their thoughts?

1952
02:37:05,720 --> 02:37:07,060
We didn't have any public hearings.

1953
02:37:07,620 --> 02:37:09,680
We had conversations.

1954
02:37:10,180 --> 02:37:13,000
I know it was important in our previous discussions.

1955
02:37:13,380 --> 02:37:15,160
You talked about that people felt comfortable,

1956
02:37:15,160 --> 02:37:20,680
right expressing their concerns or their thoughts around this and so we

1957
02:37:20,680 --> 02:37:26,120
wanted to do that to allow that and once we got to this point you know if this

1958
02:37:26,120 --> 02:37:30,020
would go forward we we would assume we would have public hearings because it's an

1959
02:37:30,020 --> 02:37:35,440
ordinance. But other than those you you have a then you're not planning to have

1960
02:37:35,440 --> 02:37:38,460
any kind of public input sessions. No.

1961
02:37:40,940 --> 02:37:44,480
I saw that you included the folks from

1962
02:38:04,080 --> 02:38:10,600
I'm sure there's folks out there we have not heard from those folks we have heard throughout

1963
02:38:10,600 --> 02:38:16,660
this time from people who have had concerns, I think Thomas you were one of them.

1964
02:38:16,660 --> 02:38:21,540
But also, you know, a lot of times, and I don't want to make an assumption here, but you

1965
02:38:21,540 --> 02:38:29,360
will see that faith leaders, religious organizations have concerns about these ordinances, and

1966
02:38:29,360 --> 02:38:31,020
we did that outreach.

1967
02:38:31,480 --> 02:38:34,740
There were some changes that were incorporated in this because of that.

1968
02:38:35,320 --> 02:38:39,420
I think there probably still are some of those concerns, and we're having those conversations.

1969
02:38:42,860 --> 02:38:48,340
but you know I want them to know that we're listening and we're hearing and we heard them as well.

1970
02:38:49,540 --> 02:38:56,380
So you know there could be and you know we receive emails and feedback all the time

1971
02:38:56,860 --> 02:39:02,800
and I'm sure once this comes out and we have a public hearing we'll hear from some other voices as well.

1972
02:39:03,500 --> 02:39:08,440
But for now, it's a possible exception of Thomas early in the process.

1973
02:39:08,440 --> 02:39:15,140
No, but we heard from business owners and other business community stakeholders that express their concerns as well.

1974
02:39:16,160 --> 02:39:21,780
Do they still have those concerns, or did you satisfy them with changes that you made?

1975
02:39:22,020 --> 02:39:32,400
I would say I think some of the changes that were made were satisfied and I will tell you several folks have said this stuff is not going away.

1976
02:39:32,400 --> 02:39:37,820
whatever they meant by this stuff like these concerns are not going away and we

1977
02:39:37,820 --> 02:39:41,900
would rather see it addressed and have a process in place than to let these

1978
02:39:41,900 --> 02:39:49,120
things linger on. But to be clear you they say this stuff's not going away they're

1979
02:39:49,120 --> 02:39:50,620
referring to advocacy for

1980
02:39:52,700 --> 02:39:57,080
advocacy for human rights actually. Well advocacy yes

1981
02:39:57,080 --> 02:40:05,350
but also the fact that they want to be sure you know that they are following

1982
02:40:05,350 --> 02:40:11,230
rules, they want to be able to take this and learn from it and be able to address it

1983
02:40:11,230 --> 02:40:20,010
with even their own employees. Right? Yeah. Right. But there's no basis to say we've got

1984
02:40:20,010 --> 02:40:23,630
this big problem in this arena that's not going away. We don't know.

1985
02:40:26,720 --> 02:40:27,920
We speculate. We think

1986
02:40:27,920 --> 02:40:36,840
so we hear anecdotal tales from people here or elsewhere. So yeah, there may be some sense

1987
02:40:36,840 --> 02:40:43,640
that, of course, bad things happen, but we don't know the scale, and we've talked about

1988
02:40:43,640 --> 02:40:49,960
that. Why are we deploying a hearing officer instead of using our municipal court?

1989
02:40:55,850 --> 02:41:06,630
I saw where some of the cities that had a police department, they used those to serve the

1990
02:41:06,630 --> 02:41:11,710
respondents, I think that was Brookhaven indicator, some of them used

1991
02:41:11,710 --> 02:41:16,450
immutable courts. You know, we could do that. We could use our immutable

1992
02:41:16,450 --> 02:41:21,790
court. We looked at the hearing officer perspective of it just like we have

1993
02:41:21,790 --> 02:41:27,110
with alcohol licenses and those such things. Working with the businesses, we don't

1994
02:41:27,110 --> 02:41:32,090
have anybody taking a business license but we felt like the hearing officer

1995
02:41:32,090 --> 02:41:33,250
process would be better.

1996
02:41:36,290 --> 02:41:42,210
So we use the hearing officer for alcohol licenses and

1997
02:41:44,250 --> 02:41:51,190
they come back and they can feel that's right. So we felt we looked at other

1998
02:41:51,190 --> 02:41:55,990
ordinances and they use the hearing officer as well. Several that I will say

1999
02:41:55,990 --> 02:42:01,570
again that had like their own police departments some of them used their

2000
02:42:01,570 --> 02:42:08,530
municipal, municipal judge. We could be open to that. It's the same thing as long as there is a process in place.

2001
02:42:10,950 --> 02:42:16,430
So, if we're going to have a hearing officer, what's the process? Who appoints the hearing officer?

2002
02:42:17,290 --> 02:42:24,810
How do they get evaluated and or dismissed? How does that, I didn't see that it was addressed in the ordinance.

2003
02:42:27,790 --> 02:42:32,650
Right now, our current process is that you appoint the hearing officer, correct?

2004
02:42:33,570 --> 02:42:34,490
The mayor does.

2005
02:42:34,610 --> 02:42:34,750
Yeah,

2006
02:42:37,050 --> 02:42:40,670
the mayor does, but I know that you've consulted in the past of the city attorney

2007
02:42:40,670 --> 02:42:42,150
as well, correct?

2008
02:42:42,330 --> 02:42:45,390
When we have appointed our hearing officers, they've had qualifications.

2009
02:42:45,950 --> 02:42:51,750
Here we talk about them being in good standing with the state bar of Georgia and then having,

2010
02:42:52,210 --> 02:42:54,670
you know, five or more years of experience.

2011
02:42:54,670 --> 02:42:59,990
So I would assume we would work with the legal team to get a list of folks in place.

2012
02:43:01,510 --> 02:43:08,660
And so, well, I guess I'll just leave it at that and say it's something that ought to be addressed.

2013
02:43:08,660 --> 02:43:14,820
If we're going to call for a hearing officer, we ought to spell out all those aspects of it.

2014
02:43:16,180 --> 02:43:22,280
Um, this may be more of a question for Ted. I don't recall seeing, I don't have any

2015
02:43:22,280 --> 02:43:29,100
experience at all, a city declared civil rights. There's a section in here that's devoted

2016
02:43:29,100 --> 02:43:30,720
to a declaration of civil rights.

2017
02:43:33,980 --> 02:43:36,600
Clearly we're asserting through this ordinance that we have

2018
02:43:36,600 --> 02:43:39,800
standing to declare civil rights.

2019
02:43:42,630 --> 02:43:45,030
Do you want to speak to it? I don't even know what to,

2020
02:43:45,030 --> 02:43:47,610
I don't know where to turn to understand that.

2021
02:43:49,780 --> 02:43:50,420
I mean, it's limited.

2022
02:43:51,640 --> 02:43:52,540
You'll see it.

2023
02:43:52,680 --> 02:43:53,520
I mean, Atlanta did it.

2024
02:43:53,740 --> 02:43:55,040
And that's the one case we have.

2025
02:43:55,720 --> 02:43:55,920
Atlanta.

2026
02:43:56,580 --> 02:43:57,900
Pest and anti-discrimination ordinance.

2027
02:43:59,540 --> 02:44:01,460
And they declared in the 90s.

2028
02:44:02,300 --> 02:44:04,480
Well, they granted a civil right.

2029
02:44:05,660 --> 02:44:09,320
They recognized domestic partner benefits at a time when gay marriage was not legal.

2030
02:44:11,020 --> 02:44:14,220
And that became part of the challenge to that ordinance at our state supreme court.

2031
02:44:14,220 --> 02:44:15,520
That's really the only case we have.

2032
02:44:17,080 --> 02:44:20,900
I'd have to look back at some of these other cab ordinances to see if they declared a civil

2033
02:44:20,900 --> 02:44:27,080
rights, but I think they did in these kind of terms, places of public accommodation and

2034
02:44:27,080 --> 02:44:29,820
employment, but none of those ordinances have been challenged.

2035
02:44:32,460 --> 02:44:39,240
So is there a standard legal sort of accepted definition of what is a civil right?

2036
02:44:40,480 --> 02:44:42,980
You don't have to tell me what it is, I just wonder if such a thing exists.

2037
02:44:42,980 --> 02:44:43,920
as

2038
02:44:46,260 --> 02:44:47,720
we've learned in law school, it depends.

2039
02:44:48,500 --> 02:44:50,260
I mean, there are definitions in these acts,

2040
02:44:50,260 --> 02:44:52,180
the federal acts that we're all talking about,

2041
02:44:52,540 --> 02:44:54,140
there's definitions in these ordinances.

2042
02:44:55,720 --> 02:44:59,000
But inevitably there's, you know, a vagueness system.

2043
02:45:00,000 --> 02:45:17,460
They mean exactly and how to interpret it. And for lack of a better way of putting it, this is an evolving area of the law. So I don't think there is a definitive definition around these. There's a federal government call them civil rights. Yes.

2044
02:45:20,840 --> 02:45:33,920
And so my application, if we believe or successfully assert or whatever the term is that we can establish civil rights as the city of Tucker, there are lots of things.

2045
02:45:33,920 --> 02:45:37,000
we could apply that to. We might declare civil rights on other.

2046
02:45:41,230 --> 02:45:41,350
Yes.

2047
02:45:46,340 --> 02:45:47,380
I want to return to

2048
02:45:48,200 --> 02:45:53,720
the city because I know that some jurisdictions nearby and farther flowing

2049
02:45:53,720 --> 02:46:03,820
I think to cap counties want to have opted to apply strictures like this to themselves

2050
02:46:03,820 --> 02:46:08,040
and their own hiring and so forth but have declined to try to apply it to the broader

2051
02:46:08,040 --> 02:46:14,800
or the private businesses, property owners, like that.

2052
02:46:16,960 --> 02:46:21,640
Is any of this driven by allegations against the city,

2053
02:46:21,880 --> 02:46:24,160
either in its employment or, for example,

2054
02:46:24,520 --> 02:46:25,720
in our parks and rec department,

2055
02:46:29,600 --> 02:46:32,800
illegally discriminated or that we've done things

2056
02:46:32,800 --> 02:46:35,600
that may not have been illegal before,

2057
02:46:35,780 --> 02:46:37,700
but would be defined as illegal under this law?

2058
02:46:38,160 --> 02:46:39,140
Is there any of that?

2059
02:46:39,140 --> 02:46:43,440
But I don't believe that was ever brought up, ever mentioned, discussed.

2060
02:46:44,100 --> 02:46:45,420
What about boards and appointments?

2061
02:46:46,260 --> 02:46:47,200
No, I don't know.

2062
02:46:47,280 --> 02:46:48,960
I mean, we've been talking about this for three years.

2063
02:46:49,320 --> 02:46:50,220
I don't know.

2064
02:46:50,480 --> 02:46:52,280
There's never been a conversation about that.

2065
02:46:53,420 --> 02:46:56,840
I think our boards have been diverse in appointments.

2066
02:46:58,360 --> 02:47:03,700
And I don't, you know, we're not in the day and day out of the city involvement with HR,

2067
02:47:03,700 --> 02:47:12,860
but you have a process in place. Jacob says a process in place. So, no, that was never the intent of this at all.

2068
02:47:13,600 --> 02:47:16,680
In nor was it ever discussed in any conversations.

2069
02:47:18,780 --> 02:47:29,380
Okay. Did you, maybe, have answered this, but in the range of options, resolution, ordinance, some other middle ground,

2070
02:47:30,080 --> 02:47:33,140
Did you specifically talk about a do-nothing option?

2071
02:47:33,980 --> 02:47:35,500
Like, let's end the conversation.

2072
02:47:36,040 --> 02:47:37,080
We're not taking this up.

2073
02:47:37,220 --> 02:47:38,300
We think we're doing fine.

2074
02:47:39,300 --> 02:47:40,840
What's the downside?

2075
02:47:41,280 --> 02:47:43,260
What transpires?

2076
02:47:43,980 --> 02:47:47,560
What negative event happens if we take a do-nothing option?

2077
02:47:51,240 --> 02:47:53,020
We didn't discuss do-nothing.

2078
02:47:53,360 --> 02:47:56,820
The resolution set forth an NDO ordinance.

2079
02:47:57,320 --> 02:47:58,100
And that's what we know.

2080
02:47:58,360 --> 02:47:59,420
It actually did not.

2081
02:47:59,780 --> 02:48:00,660
Well, forgive me.

2082
02:48:00,760 --> 02:48:01,820
I guess I should rephrase that.

2083
02:48:01,820 --> 02:48:08,640
So when you pass the word that the resolutions are, when you pass the resolution and then you

2084
02:48:08,640 --> 02:48:19,740
ask us to, you know, move forward for a working group, for a working group, that's what I

2085
02:48:19,740 --> 02:48:25,660
called for and the ordinance itself, of course, says clearly that it's a statement of values,

2086
02:48:25,660 --> 02:48:31,780
It stops short of we're going to create a law to enforce those values on people.

2087
02:48:32,460 --> 02:48:38,280
That council at that time said this is what we believe, this is the way we're going

2088
02:48:38,280 --> 02:48:43,440
to behave and to the extent because we can control what the city does, we're going to do

2089
02:48:43,440 --> 02:48:43,640
that.

2090
02:48:44,580 --> 02:48:50,160
I think you and I have shared before and I have shared this with other folks as well as

2091
02:48:50,160 --> 02:48:57,640
that, you know, we had people who were elected to this new council, who were interested in

2092
02:48:57,640 --> 02:49:03,420
doing this, and we're going to get it passed, and so we wanted to make sure that we followed

2093
02:49:03,420 --> 02:49:10,080
a process, and that we made sure it was the best that it could be for Tucker and working

2094
02:49:10,080 --> 02:49:13,840
with maybe different groups that had not had input previously.

2095
02:49:15,860 --> 02:49:27,900
Well, yes, and I promised myself, and I said to y'all a few minutes ago, I'm not here tonight to debate this, and I'm trying to stick to questions about it.

2096
02:49:29,200 --> 02:49:36,380
But I don't consider it any foregone conclusion that we're going to pass in on discrimination ordinance in this form or some other.

2097
02:49:37,540 --> 02:49:42,100
I'm a little disappointed that a lot of our members seem to have come to the table and

2098
02:49:42,100 --> 02:49:46,680
come to the committee with a free determined outcome.

2099
02:49:47,900 --> 02:49:53,200
My questions and the things that I'll argue when the time comes are about attempting

2100
02:49:53,200 --> 02:49:58,680
to influence you that there may be some better ways to achieve the goal that I think you're

2101
02:49:58,680 --> 02:49:59,340
trying to achieve.

2102
02:50:01,700 --> 02:50:05,700
All right, let's talk to our questions about the ordinance itself.

2103
02:50:06,560 --> 02:50:16,470
I'd like to know, and some of it was in the Q&A that you read, the ordinance begins with a statement of purpose.

2104
02:50:16,890 --> 02:50:22,110
Can you give me the lay person's summary of the problem we're trying to solve with the ordinance?

2105
02:50:22,630 --> 02:50:25,370
We're passing this ordinance because I'm

2106
02:50:31,160 --> 02:50:34,400
asking our council member, committee members.

2107
02:50:35,200 --> 02:50:40,320
Because we're trying to protect and safeguard folks to make sure that they have qualified

2108
02:50:40,320 --> 02:50:45,100
persons and equal opportunity to be free from discrimination, as it says.

2109
02:50:45,560 --> 02:50:48,620
We want to declare that this is a welcoming city.

2110
02:50:49,400 --> 02:50:51,280
We are welcoming city.

2111
02:50:53,860 --> 02:50:58,780
Okay, and this ordinance, all the work you've done, and I recognize it's a lot of work.

2112
02:51:00,120 --> 02:51:06,020
This ordinance is what's needed. This is your very best recommendation on how we declare

2113
02:51:06,540 --> 02:51:13,500
that Tucker is in fact a welcoming, inclusive city. I'm not sure I'm getting your words

2114
02:51:13,500 --> 02:51:18,280
raised. No, but I understand. I think so. I believe so. I think the working group believes

2115
02:51:18,280 --> 02:51:26,980
so as well. And you know, there's not to say that there is not, there's always room for

2116
02:51:26,980 --> 02:51:32,620
improvement, but in I don't know what version we're on here, but we have taken

2117
02:51:32,620 --> 02:51:33,940
other input as well.

2118
02:51:37,270 --> 02:51:40,270
And so on the other end of that question, I mean usually

2119
02:51:40,270 --> 02:51:45,950
it's a pretty linear process. We have a problem, we propose a solution, we hope

2120
02:51:45,950 --> 02:51:47,350
for some outcome.

2121
02:51:49,810 --> 02:51:53,010
Tell me again, lay person's what's the hope for. So I think

2122
02:51:53,010 --> 02:51:58,090
sometimes we've done things to prevent problems or to provide a process in case

2123
02:51:58,090 --> 02:52:03,310
there is a problem. I know, Alex, as you mentioned, scooters, and that was one that I was keen

2124
02:52:03,310 --> 02:52:07,110
on as well, although some people probably weren't, right?

2125
02:52:08,570 --> 02:52:15,050
So are you saying that if we go through this process, pass an ordinance, and nobody ever

2126
02:52:15,050 --> 02:52:17,430
uses it, that will be evidence of success?

2127
02:52:20,350 --> 02:52:26,690
It could be. I don't know. It could be. It could be. It would be evidence of success if we

2128
02:52:26,690 --> 02:52:33,570
helped one person, just one, because that person lives in our community, and that person

2129
02:52:33,570 --> 02:52:39,210
is currently not protected. I know there's weird processes and things that you have hiccups

2130
02:52:39,210 --> 02:52:44,010
about, but I think this is super important. I thought it was super important last year.

2131
02:52:47,410 --> 02:52:52,090
You'll have plenty of space to make those arguments. I'm just asking about the process of

2132
02:52:52,090 --> 02:52:59,330
this work group, did it conclude that whether or not it ever gets used is not the point.

2133
02:53:00,450 --> 02:53:03,530
I mean, used as a process to resolve a dispute.

2134
02:53:04,670 --> 02:53:08,670
The point is to have it on the books so that we've made a statement and we'll know that

2135
02:53:08,670 --> 02:53:11,350
we've made the right statement if it doesn't get used.

2136
02:53:13,520 --> 02:53:21,720
Or it could, scenarios that we talked about also were people coming in that maybe thought

2137
02:53:21,720 --> 02:53:25,800
they were being discriminated against or maybe people looking we've had

2138
02:53:25,800 --> 02:53:30,480
something where people wanted to complain about wage differences right and we

2139
02:53:30,480 --> 02:53:35,140
didn't have a process in place for them to explain that but we did it but we

2140
02:53:35,140 --> 02:53:41,800
had informal conversation but again that was misconstrued so if there's a

2141
02:53:41,800 --> 02:53:47,200
process in place those people can be educated as well on what is or is not you're

2142
02:53:47,200 --> 02:53:51,140
not proposing a process to settle a wage an hour to speed no no no I'm saying

2143
02:53:51,740 --> 02:53:55,920
Yeah, but there's a process here to say, you know what? That's not us.

2144
02:54:02,500 --> 02:54:03,620
What do I do about this?

2145
02:54:04,040 --> 02:54:07,700
And despite the fact that we did that in that case,

2146
02:54:08,480 --> 02:54:14,620
it's the committee's belief that we need an ordinance in order to facilitate a process like that.

2147
02:54:15,080 --> 02:54:17,420
We can't have a process like that short of an ordinance.

2148
02:54:20,910 --> 02:54:25,180
So I just want to be clear because I think

2149
02:54:25,180 --> 02:54:26,240
it's going to become important.

2150
02:54:28,640 --> 02:54:30,860
One of the reasons I've been cautious about bringing this whole

2151
02:54:30,860 --> 02:54:38,280
discussion into the kind of wider public arena is because when we talk about groups, we divide

2152
02:54:38,280 --> 02:54:42,600
people. You're in this group, maybe you're in three different groups. You're in that group.

2153
02:54:43,390 --> 02:54:49,380
We know how you think because we know what group you're in. But this version is specifically

2154
02:54:49,380 --> 02:54:57,600
meant to not have that effect. But this version, this proposed ordinance, is to cover everybody

2155
02:54:57,600 --> 02:55:03,300
And always, all the time, anybody who has a complaint that thinks they've been discriminated

2156
02:55:03,300 --> 02:55:09,220
against is invited to file a claim and avail themselves of the process.

2157
02:55:11,950 --> 02:55:12,470
Not everybody.

2158
02:55:13,250 --> 02:55:13,930
Who's not?

2159
02:55:14,170 --> 02:55:14,390
Who's not?

2160
02:55:14,390 --> 02:55:15,210
And not in all ways.

2161
02:55:15,390 --> 02:55:17,230
I mean, that's going back to the civil rights piece, right?

2162
02:55:17,550 --> 02:55:25,010
Employment, accommodations, public accommodations, housing, and property transactions, and being

2163
02:55:25,010 --> 02:55:27,610
a witness to those circumstances.

2164
02:55:27,610 --> 02:55:39,810
So very specific things that are sort of public square and public square adjacent that you and I might be using those terms not quite exactly right but but there is a defy.

2165
02:55:40,030 --> 02:55:43,710
I mean, I've done such a good job on definitions. There is a very clear definition of.

2166
02:55:44,030 --> 02:55:48,890
Okay, on those types of transactions or interactions, but it's for everybody.

2167
02:55:49,090 --> 02:55:50,730
And again, qualified.

2168
02:55:50,730 --> 02:55:57,310
Not only certain people, though, based on race or all the other characteristics that you define in here,

2169
02:55:57,930 --> 02:56:00,770
everybody fits into at least one of those categories.

2170
02:56:00,910 --> 02:56:01,150
No.

2171
02:56:01,290 --> 02:56:02,190
Who does not?

2172
02:56:04,890 --> 02:56:09,090
You could have a white woman, maybe, 30 years of age.

2173
02:56:09,110 --> 02:56:10,290
Who knows what that's sex, right?

2174
02:56:10,650 --> 02:56:10,810
Right.

2175
02:56:11,270 --> 02:56:12,150
I mean, sex.

2176
02:56:12,770 --> 02:56:13,750
It's really circumstantial.

2177
02:56:13,890 --> 02:56:16,970
I mean, I think that's why they're hearing officers important, why the mediator is important,

2178
02:56:17,130 --> 02:56:19,790
why the complaint process is important

2179
02:56:19,790 --> 02:56:26,730
because the point is to get to truth, not frivolity,

2180
02:56:26,930 --> 02:56:30,390
and that's even named in here, I think in one point.

2181
02:56:30,890 --> 02:56:37,110
So, I mean, I think there's, again, I know you don't love it when I say this,

2182
02:56:37,230 --> 02:56:41,590
but there are systemic, historic reasons why we have to name these classes.

2183
02:56:41,850 --> 02:56:46,570
Because if you don't, there are people who do not get protections

2184
02:56:46,570 --> 02:56:48,770
in these types of transactions.

2185
02:56:49,610 --> 02:56:52,570
And I also want to say, yes, the group felt like there was

2186
02:56:52,570 --> 02:56:55,650
something important, but just like Ann said, four of us

2187
02:56:55,650 --> 02:57:01,250
were elected, and all of our platform and the people that

2188
02:57:01,250 --> 02:57:04,630
elected us felt like the NDO was an important thing for us

2189
02:57:04,630 --> 02:57:07,450
to pursue. So I think there is broad community support.

2190
02:57:08,070 --> 02:57:10,310
I think you guys have gone through a very good process.

2191
02:57:10,850 --> 02:57:13,970
I was one of those who, if it hadn't come to it,

2192
02:57:14,010 --> 02:57:15,430
would have been like, yeah, how do we get it done?

2193
02:57:15,430 --> 02:57:16,650
because I think it's really important.

2194
02:57:17,550 --> 02:57:19,990
But the process was really important

2195
02:57:19,990 --> 02:57:21,530
and came out with a really good resolution.

2196
02:57:21,870 --> 02:57:26,310
So I think there is actually broad community support

2197
02:57:26,310 --> 02:57:26,790
for this.

2198
02:57:28,150 --> 02:57:30,750
And I know five of us supported.

2199
02:57:31,790 --> 02:57:33,710
Well, and there's also, we have to acknowledge

2200
02:57:33,710 --> 02:57:35,670
there are still concerns, right?

2201
02:57:35,950 --> 02:57:36,610
I get it.

2202
02:57:37,070 --> 02:57:39,810
There are still concerns and people are always

2203
02:57:41,450 --> 02:57:44,450
if there's something different or change.

2204
02:57:44,450 --> 02:57:46,470
So, yeah, we understand that.

2205
02:57:48,640 --> 02:57:56,050
So, in summer of 2020, the nation was upheaval in all sorts of ways.

2206
02:57:56,770 --> 02:58:00,950
One of the things that was happening was there was violence all around the country in various ways.

2207
02:58:02,690 --> 02:58:04,410
There were incidents in our state.

2208
02:58:05,090 --> 02:58:10,270
The one in particular that had hit home for most of us in a serious way was a monarch,

2209
02:58:10,270 --> 02:58:13,390
are very smarter, still a shores, run through Georgia.

2210
02:58:14,290 --> 02:58:20,950
If you recall, even with only the reporting that we got from the public and then one

2211
02:58:20,950 --> 02:58:28,690
early legal term is, but there was a hearing where there was some direct kind of hearing

2212
02:58:28,690 --> 02:58:32,930
from the people involved, it was clear it was a racially motivated crime.

2213
02:58:33,930 --> 02:58:39,530
It was clear to me, clear enough, well, we talked a lot about what we should do about it.

2214
02:58:39,530 --> 02:58:41,570
There were suggestions that we pass a hate crimes law.

2215
02:58:42,330 --> 02:58:48,990
What we did instead was I wrote a resolution clearly stating our community's values

2216
02:58:49,310 --> 02:58:56,750
and we urged the state legislature to pass a law dealing with hate crimes, which they ultimately did.

2217
02:58:57,990 --> 02:59:05,450
So that resolution we passed with unanimous support, we didn't pass our own ordinance.

2218
02:59:05,450 --> 02:59:12,950
So, I'd like to know the view, y'all's view of that response and why this case calls

2219
02:59:12,950 --> 02:59:20,990
for an ordinance and not just a resolution in light of that earlier decision.

2220
02:59:21,210 --> 02:59:26,270
So, I think not passing a hate crimes ordinance had a lot to do with not having our own police

2221
02:59:26,270 --> 02:59:26,830
departments.

2222
02:59:27,110 --> 02:59:31,530
So, several of these ordinances where they have their own, and we do, I mean we do through

2223
02:59:31,530 --> 02:59:36,570
an agreement, IGI, right, technicality, but several, I can't remember if it's

2224
02:59:36,570 --> 02:59:41,710
Dunwoody or Brookhaven, they do have a piece of their non-discrimination

2225
02:59:41,710 --> 02:59:43,270
does have the hate crimes,

2226
02:59:45,290 --> 02:59:48,610
a piece of that. And I'd love if we, you know, it's not

2227
02:59:48,610 --> 02:59:55,030
an if or, but an and, so if we did this, we could still work at the state level. I

2228
02:59:55,030 --> 02:59:59,090
know a former counsel person who said, you know, I think this is a state issue.

2229
03:00:00,000 --> 03:00:23,420
We can still do that. There's people talking now. There are groups coming together now. To consider that there was hearings, I think, I can't remember the timeframe on that, that they had some hearings to talk about a statewide, non-discrimination ordinance. Maybe because there's many different ones across the state, so they're starting to look at that. I think that'd be great.

2230
03:00:24,320 --> 03:00:30,580
But all of our ordinances, I guess I'm asking Ted, all of our ordinances, so that they're

2231
03:00:30,580 --> 03:00:35,480
unique to Tucker and wouldn't be enforced in an incorporated cab, for example.

2232
03:00:37,440 --> 03:00:39,160
We deal with that through our IGA, right?

2233
03:00:39,340 --> 03:00:44,960
I mean, we tell our police, look, we have an ordinance about littering or prostitution or

2234
03:00:44,960 --> 03:00:49,240
whatever it might be, and they can charge when it occurs in the city of Tucker.

2235
03:00:49,500 --> 03:00:52,400
They can charge in Tucker, it goes to our municipal court.

2236
03:00:53,000 --> 03:00:58,900
They might do something or have to do something differently if they encountered such a thing and unincorporated to cap.

2237
03:01:00,360 --> 03:01:03,200
That's right. That would be a question of venue and jurisdiction.

2238
03:01:04,540 --> 03:01:07,460
Are you saying you want to add a hate crimes piece to this?

2239
03:01:08,820 --> 03:01:12,740
No, I'm asking why resolution was good enough then but not now.

2240
03:01:14,960 --> 03:01:18,340
Why resolution was sufficient?

2241
03:01:19,460 --> 03:01:22,460
I don't even think that was an option we even talked about.

2242
03:01:22,720 --> 03:01:29,040
So maybe if we talked about it, I don't remember people asking us specifically to pass

2243
03:01:29,040 --> 03:01:29,740
the hate crimes.

2244
03:01:29,860 --> 03:01:36,080
I remember we did say that we were working to make our views express to the state, but

2245
03:01:36,080 --> 03:01:41,940
I don't remember the call to action to pass one here for us or the discussion even came

2246
03:01:41,940 --> 03:01:42,440
up with us.

2247
03:01:42,560 --> 03:01:43,560
But that could be my memory.

2248
03:01:43,560 --> 03:01:48,480
But, well, I mean, I remember it differently, but that's not really the point.

2249
03:01:48,800 --> 03:01:56,360
The point that I'm trying to ask about is, for whatever reason, however much consideration we did or didn't give it,

2250
03:01:57,620 --> 03:02:04,040
we were satisfied that we had done our part, spoken our mind, sent it to the right legislative body,

2251
03:02:04,340 --> 03:02:09,600
to send our views to that legislative body for them to deal with, but we're not doing that here.

2252
03:02:09,600 --> 03:02:16,000
I'd be more than happy to do that here if I thought it would make headway and make a difference

2253
03:02:16,000 --> 03:02:16,300
there.

2254
03:02:16,460 --> 03:02:16,880
And maybe it would.

2255
03:02:17,040 --> 03:02:17,660
Let's do both.

2256
03:02:18,080 --> 03:02:18,740
It did before.

2257
03:02:18,860 --> 03:02:18,960
Yeah.

2258
03:02:19,080 --> 03:02:20,420
And I'm not advocating.

2259
03:02:20,620 --> 03:02:26,580
I'm just pointing out that sometimes a resolution, we've passed resolutions on other things,

2260
03:02:28,440 --> 03:02:35,140
less substantive things, recognizing members of our community and a day for, you know, taking

2261
03:02:35,140 --> 03:02:37,040
note of whatever the occasion might be.

2262
03:02:37,040 --> 03:02:43,990
I think people take those seriously, and they believe that we mean what we said, it's

2263
03:02:43,990 --> 03:02:49,510
not lip service, which seems like the implication that we're talking about.

2264
03:02:49,610 --> 03:02:55,190
But a resolution doesn't hold people accountable, and so an ordinance does, and this ordinance

2265
03:02:55,190 --> 03:03:01,230
does in a way that works force towards mediation and reconciliation, and then, if that can't

2266
03:03:01,230 --> 03:03:05,830
be resolved, what that is, it tries to be fair to all parties involved.

2267
03:03:10,680 --> 03:03:16,960
So some people might be confused by the purpose statements reference to being free from discrimination.

2268
03:03:17,340 --> 03:03:23,980
We've talked about there are kinds of discrimination that are acceptable and the law calls them out, supports them.

2269
03:03:24,460 --> 03:03:27,400
But I think, of course, what you mean is illegal discrimination.

2270
03:03:28,280 --> 03:03:32,720
And then you define discrimination further down in the ordinance, in your definitions.

2271
03:03:33,200 --> 03:03:35,860
And that's the discrimination you're trying to help people be free from.

2272
03:03:35,860 --> 03:03:44,660
But in fact, the point of the ordinance is to create and define certain forms of discrimination to become illegal.

2273
03:03:44,980 --> 03:03:56,170
Things that have not been illegal before were defining into illegal discrimination or what's just called discrimination in here, right?

2274
03:04:04,500 --> 03:04:09,240
The right and opportunity of all persons to be free from discrimination, including discrimination based on.

2275
03:04:09,420 --> 03:04:12,220
So maybe we take out all persons, right? I mean, I don't know, does that?

2276
03:04:12,220 --> 03:04:17,660
And then at the bottom are we good to go mayor it is important for the city to ensure

2277
03:04:17,660 --> 03:04:19,960
that persons within the city have equal act.

2278
03:04:21,180 --> 03:04:21,520
Yes.

2279
03:04:21,880 --> 03:04:26,840
So we're working really hard to have an adult discussion and I don't need the personal

2280
03:04:26,840 --> 03:04:27,260
attacks.

2281
03:04:28,080 --> 03:04:34,080
I'm the only person on this council who's asking questions that is our duty to ask that

2282
03:04:34,080 --> 03:04:38,420
is defending our population against potential harm and unintended consequences.

2283
03:04:38,660 --> 03:04:39,380
That's what I'm here for.

2284
03:04:39,380 --> 03:04:43,080
I'm sorry that you don't respect that, but I wish you'd work harder at it.

2285
03:04:43,680 --> 03:04:44,580
I understand that.

2286
03:04:44,740 --> 03:04:45,660
We're moving on.

2287
03:04:46,380 --> 03:04:46,440
Okay.

2288
03:04:46,720 --> 03:04:50,280
So Frank, just real, sorry mayor, real quick, is important for the city to ensure that

2289
03:04:50,280 --> 03:04:53,660
persons within the city have equal access to employment housing and public accommodations.

2290
03:04:54,260 --> 03:04:58,700
So perhaps there's an edit from that first sentence to that second.

2291
03:04:58,700 --> 03:05:03,820
Yeah, I'm not suggesting, I'm real, but I'm not suggesting edits or changes yet.

2292
03:05:03,880 --> 03:05:06,740
I'm just trying to highlight things that I think need attention.

2293
03:05:06,740 --> 03:05:15,860
And so it's a further the goal of including everyone that we've talked about.

2294
03:05:17,180 --> 03:05:23,870
We may need to add some descriptors to the kinds of, I mean, that's what we're doing

2295
03:05:23,870 --> 03:05:25,270
is we're adding some suggestions.

2296
03:05:25,770 --> 03:05:29,710
We may need to add more if we're going to go through as an ordinance like this.

2297
03:05:29,830 --> 03:05:33,710
We need to make sure that we cover everything we intend to cover.

2298
03:05:38,600 --> 03:05:44,180
So, most of the ordinances we've done, there's a pretty direct line to some authority in

2299
03:05:44,180 --> 03:05:48,080
our charter, right? Most of the time, I don't even talk about it because it's pretty

2300
03:05:48,080 --> 03:05:53,080
straightforward. We own the parks. We got to keep them clean and safe. We own the right

2301
03:05:53,080 --> 03:05:57,940
ways. We've got to keep them clean and safe. We've taken on the duty of, you know,

2302
03:05:58,900 --> 03:06:07,400
building roads, trying to take on the duty of maintaining them, so there's usually something

2303
03:06:07,400 --> 03:06:07,900
like that.

2304
03:06:08,140 --> 03:06:16,280
But I guess my question is, is there something, what do you point to in this case that gives

2305
03:06:16,280 --> 03:06:21,320
us the authority to enter into complex environment like employment?

2306
03:06:21,320 --> 03:06:21,360
Okay,

2307
03:06:25,460 --> 03:06:26,440
Ted, help me out here.

2308
03:06:26,560 --> 03:06:32,400
We had talked a little bit about this with a charter and then I know we talked about police

2309
03:06:32,400 --> 03:06:33,480
powers as well.

2310
03:06:34,700 --> 03:06:40,640
So I think what the mayor is asking about and your response gets to the very heart of the

2311
03:06:40,640 --> 03:06:43,580
issue with the legality of an approach like this.

2312
03:06:46,390 --> 03:06:53,170
If this ordinance is valid under the general police powers enjoyed by a city, there's

2313
03:06:53,170 --> 03:07:00,530
a specific service or power mentioned in the Constitution of the Home Rule Act that

2314
03:07:00,530 --> 03:07:04,650
this would be adopted for and when I keep referring to the McKinney case it's because

2315
03:07:04,650 --> 03:07:05,510
it's all we have.

2316
03:07:06,490 --> 03:07:10,170
Court talks about the inherent police power and so I think the debate will be when this

2317
03:07:10,170 --> 03:07:13,010
ordinance is challenged or another ordinance is challenged on appeal.

2318
03:07:13,770 --> 03:07:18,570
Do cities have this inherent, does the home rule power of a Georgia city?

2319
03:07:19,210 --> 03:07:24,910
Does it's police power authorize it to do this, that you've both put your finger on the

2320
03:07:24,910 --> 03:07:26,590
very legal question?

2321
03:07:28,960 --> 03:07:29,400
And so,

2322
03:07:31,630 --> 03:07:38,450
I'd like to note that the issue arises that if we can, if whatever means it's determined

2323
03:07:38,450 --> 03:07:42,150
that this is the kind of thing we can do is for our general police powers,

2324
03:07:44,490 --> 03:07:46,510
again, are there

2325
03:07:46,510 --> 03:07:47,010
any limits?

2326
03:07:47,630 --> 03:07:54,450
And I'd like to note that the committee discuss the general notion of are there limits, should

2327
03:07:54,450 --> 03:08:00,190
we impose limits on ourselves? Should we, from time to time, on individual subjects, say,

2328
03:08:00,670 --> 03:08:07,970
you know what, that's really not for us. Or is the committee's view that, you know, if we see it,

2329
03:08:09,630 --> 03:08:15,370
we don't talk about who jurisdiction it is, or which body of government ought to address it,

2330
03:08:15,370 --> 03:08:21,110
or whether it's already being addressed, and we need to fix it, it was a discussion around that kind of topic.

2331
03:08:21,110 --> 03:08:22,010
First

2332
03:08:25,920 --> 03:08:30,400
thing that comes to my mind was just with the business license revoking business licenses.

2333
03:08:31,260 --> 03:08:37,600
You know, there was discussions around that where is we can when there's the zoning issue,

2334
03:08:37,660 --> 03:08:46,220
we've seen that with recently with the business that did not comply with the stipulations

2335
03:08:47,460 --> 03:08:55,100
we put on their their rezoning those are in the law, those are things and there's and new

2336
03:08:55,100 --> 03:09:00,900
Laws, you know, the police power with nuisance laws as well. But there's if I'm right, there's

2337
03:09:01,920 --> 03:09:05,680
Code about circumstances under which we could revoke a business

2338
03:09:06,800 --> 03:09:13,520
Business lessons we want to say. Oh, sorry. Yes. Occupational tax certificate. There are things for which we can withdraw or vote

2339
03:09:13,520 --> 03:09:19,220
their tax certificate, but this would not be one of them, right? This wouldn't that's why that's not it. We had this ordinance

2340
03:09:19,220 --> 03:09:22,380
A punishment of this ordinance couldn't be that we're gonna

2341
03:09:22,380 --> 03:09:24,460
to ultimately revoke their business license.

2342
03:09:24,960 --> 03:09:26,940
There's nothing in this ordinance that authorizes that.

2343
03:09:27,420 --> 03:09:27,520
No.

2344
03:09:29,140 --> 03:09:32,080
Well, but there can't be because the law says there can't be,

2345
03:09:32,220 --> 03:09:32,540
is that right?

2346
03:09:34,040 --> 03:09:37,220
That's not a penalty we can impose for violation

2347
03:09:37,220 --> 03:09:38,640
of these kinds of acts.

2348
03:09:39,060 --> 03:09:41,280
It's spelled out what we can revoke.

2349
03:09:42,320 --> 03:09:44,260
Occupational texts are good for.

2350
03:09:46,770 --> 03:09:47,630
We could try.

2351
03:09:47,930 --> 03:09:49,210
I would advise against that.

2352
03:09:52,120 --> 03:09:55,360
So on the bigger question, if we can regulate

2353
03:09:55,360 --> 03:10:00,980
this behavior because we have general police powers is the sky the limit or

2354
03:10:00,980 --> 03:10:05,980
are there things that you all believe as council members discussions in your

2355
03:10:05,980 --> 03:10:12,880
committee that we should stay away from because it's not our lane we were

2356
03:10:12,880 --> 03:10:17,400
focused on this discussion and did not venture into any of those other topics now

2357
03:10:17,400 --> 03:10:23,720
Is it a current sign to you now that it's been bothering you?

2358
03:10:23,720 --> 03:10:26,540
Because it worked a few years ago with a future council.

2359
03:10:26,840 --> 03:10:31,320
Yeah, I always worry about that because when we had cityhood movement and people ask

2360
03:10:31,860 --> 03:10:34,560
what's your biggest concern and I said who you elect, right?

2361
03:10:34,740 --> 03:10:35,520
So it could, sure.

2362
03:10:36,220 --> 03:10:39,580
And we've seen other cities do that as well, so there's never any certainty.

2363
03:10:44,050 --> 03:10:47,070
I'm asking lots of questions, I'll pause anytime somebody else has one.

2364
03:10:47,630 --> 03:10:51,570
I'm about to move on to specifics of the language and the ordinance.

2365
03:10:51,570 --> 03:10:52,430
So,

2366
03:11:00,910 --> 03:11:08,670
the first sentence and the second paragraph of the purpose intent statement at the very beginning and that's six in your handout.

2367
03:11:09,890 --> 03:11:14,410
Did they, I've been meaning to ask, did Roger and Noel get the second?

2368
03:11:15,650 --> 03:11:29,930
So, the second paragraph and section 30-30 on begins with, the city of Tupper hereby declares that it is intended that whenever possible, any complaints arising in this, under this ordinance, be resolved by good faith discussion mediation.

2369
03:11:29,930 --> 03:11:35,130
or other forms of voluntary dispute resolution.

2370
03:11:37,240 --> 03:11:46,380
Does that, I mean I guess it's the same question in a different form as earlier, is this

2371
03:11:46,940 --> 03:11:53,500
the force of law as one of our presenters put it, or is this encouraging people to do

2372
03:11:53,500 --> 03:12:00,280
the right thing and resolve their differences sort of invoking the law and the court system

2373
03:12:00,280 --> 03:12:00,780
and so on?

2374
03:12:00,780 --> 03:12:06,200
So yeah, I think it's we're saying the intention is and we've got a process there, you know, for

2375
03:12:06,200 --> 03:12:10,920
mediation, but if that doesn't work, then we've got this ordinance.

2376
03:12:11,340 --> 03:12:15,700
I think this is the place where the language must be different because I had a note that

2377
03:12:16,840 --> 03:12:23,070
this ordinance was to be used as a guide, that specific word that I was asking about.

2378
03:12:24,130 --> 03:12:31,170
I guess my concern would be that some future time does it undermine the force of law that the

2379
03:12:31,170 --> 03:12:35,110
ordinance carries to say that it's really a guide or it's an encouragement or what

2380
03:12:35,110 --> 03:12:35,570
have been.

2381
03:12:36,990 --> 03:12:37,510
It's

2382
03:12:42,380 --> 03:12:47,520
an extra addition I mean we can talk about this further but it's I mean that

2383
03:12:47,520 --> 03:12:50,120
could easily come out and we have the mediation within.

2384
03:12:55,810 --> 03:13:00,130
So I'm sorry I'm going backwards just but the paragraph above that says it's the intent

2385
03:13:00,130 --> 03:13:08,430
of the council mayor safeguard rights including discrimination based on so on and so on.

2386
03:13:09,230 --> 03:13:13,130
Does the fact that it says, including mean that this is not an exhaustive list,

2387
03:13:15,550 --> 03:13:15,750
are there

2388
03:13:15,750 --> 03:13:17,150
things that we

2389
03:13:19,260 --> 03:13:22,840
think should be added there, maybe that is the same question I was asked

2390
03:13:22,840 --> 03:13:23,080
before?

2391
03:13:29,880 --> 03:13:35,980
As we've had with, you know, faith leaders, community leaders, business leaders across

2392
03:13:35,980 --> 03:13:36,380
the board.

2393
03:13:36,540 --> 03:13:39,640
So if there are those things that we need to look at to make sure it's a little bit more clear

2394
03:13:39,640 --> 03:13:41,280
against size, sure, we're open to that.

2395
03:13:43,610 --> 03:13:53,630
What's meant by section 30-302, paragraph 5, or any agent of such person, I don't know

2396
03:13:53,630 --> 03:13:53,850
what?

2397
03:13:59,280 --> 03:14:01,680
Ted, correct me if I'm wrong on this one, though.

2398
03:14:01,780 --> 03:14:05,920
A person who employs one or more employees in the city of Tucker, or any agent of such

2399
03:14:05,920 --> 03:14:06,600
person,

2400
03:14:09,090 --> 03:14:13,110
it could be your managers that are there on site for you as well.

2401
03:14:13,670 --> 03:14:15,250
That's the way I interpret it.

2402
03:14:16,070 --> 03:14:21,730
So, another employee of a business who's respectively higher in someone or

2403
03:14:24,380 --> 03:14:26,420
you

2404
03:14:29,400 --> 03:14:30,020
said earlier

2405
03:14:30,020 --> 03:14:36,840
that religious organizations are free to hire basically whoever they want they can insist

2406
03:14:36,840 --> 03:14:43,520
that anybody they hire for any position they can insist that that person agree to their

2407
03:14:43,520 --> 03:14:44,100
tenets

2408
03:14:46,500 --> 03:14:56,560
so 30 sorry I'm done I'm on page 8 of what you handed out earlier so section 30-304

2409
03:15:03,660 --> 03:15:08,720
I know I couldn't recite it, but affirmative action is a pretty specific legal,

2410
03:15:12,480 --> 03:15:37,890
right? And it really, I'll say it in my laments way, it legalizes certain crimes of discrimination to correct past discrimination, systemic discrimination, is that right? Am I? Anybody else? I guess my heartburn over it is that, again, we're talking about everybody

2411
03:15:37,890 --> 03:15:39,150
everybody getting the same protections.

2412
03:15:40,170 --> 03:15:41,850
We're talking about something that looks

2413
03:15:42,910 --> 03:15:44,030
from a date forward.

2414
03:15:44,930 --> 03:15:47,170
This kind of discrimination will be illegal.

2415
03:15:49,030 --> 03:15:50,470
Section 304-

2416
03:15:51,970 --> 03:15:54,810
And it also says a bona fide seniority system.

2417
03:15:55,010 --> 03:15:55,150
Yeah.

2418
03:15:55,790 --> 03:15:59,410
So what it says is that employer observes

2419
03:15:59,410 --> 03:16:02,470
the conditions of a bona fide affirmative action plan

2420
03:16:03,450 --> 03:16:06,330
and or a bona fide seniority system.

2421
03:16:06,330 --> 03:16:10,170
which is not a pretext to evade the purposes of this ordinance.

2422
03:16:10,590 --> 03:16:16,060
So if an employer has a bona fide seniority system,

2423
03:16:16,640 --> 03:16:22,820
they would qualify and be accepted from this ordinance.

2424
03:16:23,180 --> 03:16:24,760
This is an actual question, too.

2425
03:16:25,000 --> 03:16:27,980
Because I get a little confused in the exception section.

2426
03:16:28,120 --> 03:16:28,940
I think we talked about that.

2427
03:16:30,280 --> 03:16:35,240
Because I read it as, you can't say I have a legally binding affirmative,

2428
03:16:35,600 --> 03:16:37,200
which is what I think the bona fide piece is.

2429
03:16:37,200 --> 03:16:41,960
right? I have a legally binding agreement because of some other thing that I've had this

2430
03:16:41,960 --> 03:16:46,520
that all. Like there are affirmative action plans that sometimes people can be forced

2431
03:16:46,520 --> 03:16:52,040
to. That doesn't give you, this is how I read it. So that doesn't give you a free pass

2432
03:16:52,040 --> 03:16:56,240
to say I'm not discriminating against other people because look I have this plan over here

2433
03:16:56,240 --> 03:17:01,460
or I have this seniority plan. It doesn't, you still have to, you still have to treat people

2434
03:17:02,040 --> 03:17:04,180
is that the right way to read that?

2435
03:17:04,980 --> 03:17:06,540
That's how I took it.

2436
03:17:06,900 --> 03:17:08,500
Did you have any comments on that one?

2437
03:17:10,710 --> 03:17:13,350
I think that provision is, you know,

2438
03:17:13,490 --> 03:17:14,150
it's in the exceptions,

2439
03:17:15,210 --> 03:17:18,310
either a seniority plan or a formative action plan.

2440
03:17:19,410 --> 03:17:22,270
Arguably, if you can demonstrate the satisfaction

2441
03:17:22,270 --> 03:17:24,610
of the hearing officer that that's not a pretext,

2442
03:17:25,430 --> 03:17:27,950
but that it's an other bona fide being otherwise legal,

2443
03:17:28,590 --> 03:17:31,290
legally accepted formative action or seniority plan,

2444
03:17:31,290 --> 03:17:35,790
and that would be an exception to the charge.

2445
03:17:36,030 --> 03:17:39,890
Is it unusual for somebody to have one of those employer?

2446
03:17:42,920 --> 03:17:49,020
Courts have cut back on those significantly over the years.

2447
03:17:50,510 --> 03:17:57,020
They were originally created in order to have a redress for pass wrongs and to protect

2448
03:17:57,020 --> 03:18:01,800
against two-trigger discrimination, but a lot of the rulings and federal courts have really

2449
03:18:01,800 --> 03:18:03,800
restricted the scope of those kinds of plans.

2450
03:18:05,680 --> 03:18:10,580
Most employers who do business with federal government are required to have an affirmative

2451
03:18:10,580 --> 03:18:16,220
action plan and that's the biggest place where it shows up.

2452
03:18:17,460 --> 03:18:18,920
It's often true, yes.

2453
03:18:19,760 --> 03:18:24,580
It seems like we've had a discussion, maybe it was not specifically affirmative action,

2454
03:18:24,740 --> 03:18:30,680
but in order to institute, so if you're an employer or an operator or a business

2455
03:18:30,680 --> 03:18:35,060
and you want to install an affirmative action plan, just because you want to.

2456
03:18:35,900 --> 03:18:43,320
You have to prove all the past behavior that has been wrong, systemically, historically,

2457
03:18:43,760 --> 03:18:48,700
and now needs to be corrected because what you're going to say is you have to affirmatively seek out

2458
03:18:49,360 --> 03:18:55,760
members of protected classes to sort of get back to a level that would be appropriate or expected

2459
03:18:55,760 --> 03:19:00,080
if you hadn't been involved in discriminatory practices.

2460
03:19:01,890 --> 03:19:06,810
I mean, I guess the point is we're already exempting everybody

2461
03:19:06,810 --> 03:19:08,070
above 15 employees.

2462
03:19:08,890 --> 03:19:10,490
We're exempting lots of things.

2463
03:19:10,630 --> 03:19:14,390
We're really in this ordinance of, oh, we're talking about small employers.

2464
03:19:15,250 --> 03:19:19,510
And this is, you're saying a small employer could have an affirmative action plan

2465
03:19:19,510 --> 03:19:22,910
and therefore not have to be covered by this?

2466
03:19:23,770 --> 03:19:30,510
I'm not sure, I think affirmative action plan is a pretty specific legal term or requirement

2467
03:19:30,510 --> 03:19:36,390
that even if they wanted to, I'm not sure small employers could meet because of the law

2468
03:19:36,390 --> 03:19:36,790
requires.

2469
03:19:38,780 --> 03:19:38,940
Okay.

2470
03:19:39,700 --> 03:19:44,480
Well, I guess in the form of a question, the question is, do you really mean affirmative

2471
03:19:44,480 --> 03:19:51,260
action in a legal term of art or do you just mean that they have a non-discrimination policy

2472
03:19:51,260 --> 03:19:51,680
of their own?

2473
03:19:52,780 --> 03:19:55,420
No, I think it's in the legal sense, right here.

2474
03:19:58,590 --> 03:20:04,210
An employer, the way this is written, could have either or and not be covered by the...

2475
03:20:07,590 --> 03:20:14,810
I just want to go back to address, too, when you talked about there's exceptions for the larger employers.

2476
03:20:15,650 --> 03:20:20,810
The exception here, but they have other things that they've got to face.

2477
03:20:20,810 --> 03:20:24,770
But if somebody came in the door from a 100-person employer,

2478
03:20:25,550 --> 03:20:26,750
the hearing officer would immediately

2479
03:20:27,530 --> 03:20:31,830
say he should shout dismiss, not may or might.

2480
03:20:32,130 --> 03:20:32,690
Yeah, they shout.

2481
03:20:33,110 --> 03:20:35,350
If they're covered elsewhere, they're not covered by this.

2482
03:20:42,470 --> 03:20:43,310
So that

2483
03:20:47,240 --> 03:20:47,780
knows that.

2484
03:20:48,580 --> 03:20:51,040
Haven't been, don't intend to be, no offense, Ted.

2485
03:20:52,040 --> 03:20:54,980
But when I've had occasion to look at criminal code

2486
03:20:56,160 --> 03:20:58,760
previously, there's usually something that says something

2487
03:20:58,760 --> 03:21:06,720
like, if a person does X, they will be guilty of having committed the crime of Y.

2488
03:21:09,720 --> 03:21:10,060
Or they're

2489
03:21:10,060 --> 03:21:14,960
in the first degree, vehicular manslaughter, whatever. Is there something parallel to that

2490
03:21:14,960 --> 03:21:22,040
in this ordinance where the ordinance says this is what a violation means? This is what constitutes

2491
03:21:22,040 --> 03:21:22,720
a violation.

2492
03:21:36,910 --> 03:21:40,990
We can move on. It's a question the committee can take up. What does it mean

2493
03:21:40,990 --> 03:21:43,650
30-305

2494
03:21:48,480 --> 03:21:52,780
subject procedures the city shall receive, investigate, seek to

2495
03:21:52,780 --> 03:21:57,080
conciliate hold hearings on and or pass upon complaints alleging violations.

2496
03:21:57,300 --> 03:22:03,560
What does what does that mean to pass upon complaints so that would be somebody

2497
03:22:03,560 --> 03:22:07,620
would come in like you just use that example they have a complaint and we would

2498
03:22:07,620 --> 03:22:12,100
say this is where this is where you would go or we could refer it to that agency

2499
03:22:12,100 --> 03:22:17,400
itself so that's the process of our hearing officer declaring

2500
03:22:17,400 --> 03:22:19,560
This doesn't belong here, it belongs there.

2501
03:22:29,130 --> 03:22:31,010
Still in that same section, 33-05.

2502
03:22:35,100 --> 03:22:36,660
Several parts that kind of run together.

2503
03:22:43,800 --> 03:22:46,340
The item paragraph section four,

2504
03:22:46,960 --> 03:22:48,900
the clerk will still cause the complaint to be served

2505
03:22:48,900 --> 03:22:50,800
on the respondent within seven days.

2506
03:22:51,520 --> 03:22:54,160
And then the respondent shall have 30 days to file an answer.

2507
03:22:58,710 --> 03:23:00,610
You say a led to file later, I think that's one

2508
03:23:00,610 --> 03:23:02,470
of the places you meant to call them, they're responding.

2509
03:23:03,990 --> 03:23:05,130
City will provide form.

2510
03:23:05,450 --> 03:23:06,550
OK, so then it goes down.

2511
03:23:06,550 --> 03:23:10,730
in the next paragraph it says the city clerk shall cause a copy of the complaint to be served upon

2512
03:23:10,730 --> 03:23:17,510
the hearing officer three business days I guess that means within three business days a receipt

2513
03:23:17,510 --> 03:23:26,110
of a properly filed complaint via electronic mail so the clerk gets the complaint and has to serve

2514
03:23:26,110 --> 03:23:32,830
the hearing officer within three days but the respondent within seven days and then the next paragraph

2515
03:23:32,830 --> 03:23:38,970
The hearing officer will have 15 days to review the complaint and answer, so on and so on.

2516
03:23:39,090 --> 03:23:42,930
We're still within the time that the respondent has to respond.

2517
03:23:43,790 --> 03:23:53,230
The respondent has 30 days to answer, but you've already served the hearing officer or required the hearing officer to review the complaint and determine if it's in conformity.

2518
03:23:53,290 --> 03:24:00,250
Within three days, the hearing officer looks at it to say, okay, should it go somewhere else? Should it go here? Should it go there?

2519
03:24:00,250 --> 03:24:03,830
Right. Is this something we're going to look at?

2520
03:24:04,210 --> 03:24:05,970
Is it something we're going to look at at that point?

2521
03:24:06,170 --> 03:24:08,250
They don't even need to hear from the respondent.

2522
03:24:08,390 --> 03:24:10,570
They're just looking at the complaint to say,

2523
03:24:11,030 --> 03:24:12,410
does this fit? Is it covered?

2524
03:24:16,260 --> 03:24:17,320
And those can be adjusted.

2525
03:24:18,900 --> 03:24:21,620
Can I interject in here, Mr. Mayor?

2526
03:24:22,120 --> 03:24:22,320
Sure.

2527
03:24:24,550 --> 03:24:28,290
That was one of the most vague provisions of this

2528
03:24:28,290 --> 03:24:30,630
and I talked to Carol about that as well.

2529
03:24:30,630 --> 03:24:38,970
So, it doesn't really give criteria upon which a, hearing officer can dismiss a complaint,

2530
03:24:39,590 --> 03:24:46,330
and it doesn't provide whether a dismissal is based on a defect, an amenable defect,

2531
03:24:47,010 --> 03:24:55,430
whether it's a technical deficiency, or a failure to state a claim, where a petitioner

2532
03:24:55,430 --> 03:25:00,970
is permitted to amend the petition with no additional fee,

2533
03:25:01,210 --> 03:25:04,730
such as to overcome that presumption of a problem.

2534
03:25:05,520 --> 03:25:08,010
I had a big problem with Section 6 here.

2535
03:25:13,210 --> 03:25:13,390
All right.

2536
03:25:13,730 --> 03:25:17,110
That's good, and we'd recommend any additions or anything

2537
03:25:17,110 --> 03:25:18,730
that you would see that would make that better.

2538
03:25:19,590 --> 03:25:23,230
I'm happy to submit that for you and Ted, of course,

2539
03:25:23,230 --> 03:25:24,470
to review as well.

2540
03:25:25,010 --> 03:25:27,050
Ted will recognize my wording, so.

2541
03:25:27,930 --> 03:25:33,450
So I think it's a valid concern there, and it's very vague, but it needs to be tightened up.

2542
03:25:33,850 --> 03:25:34,330
Thank you.

2543
03:25:37,290 --> 03:25:42,730
So I wanted to try to understand paragraph 7 there, but I think maybe it's getting through

2544
03:25:42,730 --> 03:25:43,170
my head.

2545
03:25:43,690 --> 03:25:46,250
It's saying that the hearing officer has

2546
03:25:48,260 --> 03:25:50,160
the authority to request and share information

2547
03:25:50,160 --> 03:25:51,380
on referred complaints.

2548
03:25:52,720 --> 03:25:55,780
I'm not sure I follow why the word request in there.

2549
03:25:56,020 --> 03:26:01,400
Is this meaning to say the hearing officer can send information on these complaints to

2550
03:26:01,400 --> 03:26:03,500
to whatever state or federal agency.

2551
03:26:03,920 --> 03:26:05,820
Ted, that was when we worked on together.

2552
03:26:10,560 --> 03:26:12,480
Interprety to allow the hearing officer

2553
03:26:12,480 --> 03:26:16,540
to request information of any agency as to whether or not

2554
03:26:16,540 --> 03:26:18,280
they think the nature of the complaint is one

2555
03:26:18,280 --> 03:26:20,960
that's in their jurisdiction and to share the complaint

2556
03:26:21,490 --> 03:26:23,060
with any agency that has jurisdiction

2557
03:26:23,060 --> 03:26:24,120
over these types of complaints.

2558
03:26:28,650 --> 03:26:34,290
And so paragraph eight means that the hearing officer

2559
03:26:34,960 --> 03:26:37,110
will appoint a mediator.

2560
03:26:37,110 --> 03:26:41,190
Is that the intent here that the hearing officer is going to choose a mediator?

2561
03:26:41,790 --> 03:26:47,690
Notify everybody who it is and then somewhere else I think it says they have 30 days to complete

2562
03:26:47,690 --> 03:26:48,370
that mediation.

2563
03:27:13,400 --> 03:27:15,680
So you've changed some of your...

2564
03:27:15,680 --> 03:27:16,220
We did.

2565
03:27:16,360 --> 03:27:17,160
We brought that up.

2566
03:27:20,890 --> 03:27:22,870
Not the wording's changed, but the purpose.

2567
03:27:25,280 --> 03:27:25,700
By purpose.

2568
03:27:26,220 --> 03:27:28,460
I just want to find what I'm trying to ask about.

2569
03:27:31,240 --> 03:27:35,400
So the hearing officer will be notified whether the mediation was successful.

2570
03:27:40,460 --> 03:27:42,900
Initial burden improves placed on the complaining party.

2571
03:27:42,900 --> 03:27:46,340
What does quantum of proof mean? Is that a legal term?

2572
03:27:51,610 --> 03:28:03,200
Quantum, we, you know, burden of proof, but I think, you know, that's just intended to establish preponderance rather than reasonable doubt.

2573
03:28:04,880 --> 03:28:07,960
Proponderance of evidence, I get, I just hadn't seen quantum before.

2574
03:28:12,120 --> 03:28:20,800
So, um, in your paragraph 14 now in page 11, either party may call a witness by submitting a request to the hearing officer.

2575
03:28:20,800 --> 03:28:25,000
So, can they call a witness or only with permission of the hearing officer?

2576
03:28:26,280 --> 03:28:32,340
And can a witness be compelled in a circumstance like this if the respondent or the complainant

2577
03:28:32,340 --> 03:28:34,520
says, I want that witness there?

2578
03:28:36,680 --> 03:28:37,420
Can it be forced?

2579
03:28:37,820 --> 03:28:38,980
What happens there?

2580
03:28:40,440 --> 03:28:42,720
We have a discussion, I believe, as well.

2581
03:28:44,800 --> 03:28:48,900
The ordinance as written doesn't confer a subpoena power on this process,

2582
03:28:51,350 --> 03:28:52,030
so you can try

2583
03:28:52,030 --> 03:28:52,830
to put that in there.

2584
03:28:52,830 --> 03:28:54,810
We have spent a dollar in the Minister's court.

2585
03:28:57,030 --> 03:29:03,450
It's like, it occurred to me because this is sort of an extra legal process, right?

2586
03:29:03,570 --> 03:29:06,030
We're not going through normal processes.

2587
03:29:06,030 --> 03:29:12,800
We're creating a whole separate process to deal with this and a ton of issues that come

2588
03:29:12,800 --> 03:29:16,160
out of that that I think would have to be addressed in some way.

2589
03:29:17,640 --> 03:29:18,800
I did have a question.

2590
03:29:18,940 --> 03:29:24,880
I know we had talked about it and I around that same thing, which is I think I would love

2591
03:29:24,880 --> 03:29:32,140
to see us explore when the complaint is first made, that the complaint name who potential

2592
03:29:32,140 --> 03:29:39,920
witnesses might be, so that it's not further down into the process, and then they're like,

2593
03:29:40,060 --> 03:29:45,120
oh, who was there, who wasn't there, so if there's a way for them on that form to submit

2594
03:29:45,120 --> 03:29:49,360
who might be a potential witness, if there are any, I think that would be good to name early

2595
03:29:49,360 --> 03:29:49,780
in that.

2596
03:29:56,210 --> 03:29:58,570
I'd like to know somewhere along the way.

2597
03:30:00,940 --> 03:30:24,720
If either side wants to call a witness and they're not able to compel them to come in to whatever the process is and bear witness, do they have grounds for an appeal or complaint that says, look, I'm trying to introduce my side of the story. I can't have the means to do it. So process is flawed.

2598
03:30:28,060 --> 03:30:33,320
I'm struggling through trying to square my notes with your paragraph.

2599
03:30:34,420 --> 03:30:36,280
I'll just ask about

2600
03:30:43,070 --> 03:30:47,630
dressing rooming standards. Where did that go? Is that somewhere else?

2601
03:30:49,110 --> 03:30:50,530
It's probably towards the front.

2602
03:30:51,350 --> 03:30:51,810
Yeah,

2603
03:30:57,770 --> 03:31:02,630
maybe under exceptions. Ordnance does not prohibit employer from a

2604
03:31:02,630 --> 03:31:07,810
fire and employee during the employee's hours of work. So it's here to reasonable and equitable

2605
03:31:07,810 --> 03:31:09,150
dressing rooming standards.

2606
03:31:12,550 --> 03:31:13,710
So I got a couple of questions.

2607
03:31:15,870 --> 03:31:18,170
Uniforms, that's intended to address uniforms.

2608
03:31:21,920 --> 03:31:22,680
You can have uniforms.

2609
03:31:23,600 --> 03:31:25,000
Yeah, that's what I'm asking.

2610
03:31:25,280 --> 03:31:30,860
This says it's okay for an employer to require uniforms, provided they're permitted to

2611
03:31:30,860 --> 03:31:33,480
dress in a manner consistent with their gender identity.

2612
03:31:35,280 --> 03:31:37,240
It also uses the word equitable.

2613
03:31:37,580 --> 03:31:42,000
Actually, there's two or three of these that I'll try to regather for you.

2614
03:31:42,100 --> 03:31:43,200
Affirmative action is won.

2615
03:31:43,820 --> 03:31:45,300
That's not in the definitions.

2616
03:31:47,000 --> 03:31:52,600
Equitable is another word that's used in at least a couple of three places that's not in

2617
03:31:53,130 --> 03:31:53,960
the definitions.

2618
03:31:56,900 --> 03:32:02,140
And so, what about underdressed code kinds of things?

2619
03:32:02,540 --> 03:32:11,620
Is a person allowed to wear military or religious or political symbols, icons, or are those

2620
03:32:13,580 --> 03:32:14,810
treated under all this?

2621
03:32:14,810 --> 03:32:17,910
And can I use the example that I used the other day?

2622
03:32:20,770 --> 03:32:23,170
So we spoke the other day and she asked.

2623
03:32:23,630 --> 03:32:31,810
Yeah, so I think my understanding of how to think about equitable is related to...

2624
03:32:32,470 --> 03:32:38,230
So when I worked, one of the places I worked we had to distribute food equitably.

2625
03:32:38,330 --> 03:32:39,950
You had to provide service equitably.

2626
03:32:39,950 --> 03:32:47,410
What that meant was that whatever your stated policy was had to be applied to any person.

2627
03:32:48,050 --> 03:32:50,210
But you could have a specialized policy.

2628
03:32:50,410 --> 03:32:53,450
You could say we're only going to serve senior citizens.

2629
03:32:53,770 --> 03:33:04,110
You could say our dress code requires no political insignia or no religious affiliation or from

2630
03:33:04,110 --> 03:33:06,230
a religious perspective you could say it requires that.

2631
03:33:07,770 --> 03:33:13,730
The inequitable piece is when if you begin to enforce that policy outside of the bounds

2632
03:33:13,730 --> 03:33:14,370
of that policy.

2633
03:33:14,690 --> 03:33:21,410
So, if you've said we can't do this, and then somebody is doing it and something else

2634
03:33:21,410 --> 03:33:22,630
that that's where the issue comes.

2635
03:33:22,770 --> 03:33:29,630
So it's not, to me it's just saying you have to be applying that standard of uniform or whatever

2636
03:33:29,630 --> 03:33:32,270
you're defining as grooming standards appropriately.

2637
03:33:35,700 --> 03:33:41,420
We've had that discussion too with some folks who came in when you talk about, you know,

2638
03:33:42,260 --> 03:33:47,180
talking about beliefs or religious beliefs that work, right, may not go with this ordinance,

2639
03:33:47,400 --> 03:33:52,640
but if you allow, if you say, we don't do that here, you know, do that here, but if you

2640
03:33:52,640 --> 03:33:54,700
start to allow it, then you have to allow everybody.

2641
03:33:59,070 --> 03:34:01,510
For the moment, I'll be interested in getting that,

2642
03:34:10,220 --> 03:34:15,850
just a definition section, so the word

2643
03:34:15,850 --> 03:34:17,750
equitable or equitably is you.

2644
03:34:25,040 --> 03:34:26,700
So in the

2645
03:34:30,060 --> 03:34:34,720
section 30304 exceptions,

2646
03:34:42,600 --> 03:34:43,180
it uses the word

2647
03:34:43,180 --> 03:34:50,050
protected group in paragraph 10, plays of public accommodation, so on and so on, as long as the

2648
03:34:50,050 --> 03:34:54,930
place of public accommodation does not discriminate against any other protected group identified in this

2649
03:34:54,930 --> 03:35:04,700
ordinance. So I guess it just highlights again in another place the need to discern whether we're

2650
03:35:04,700 --> 03:35:10,640
We're talking about defining protected groups or saying it applies to everyone.

2651
03:35:15,390 --> 03:35:17,670
And then the hearing officer's capacity,

2652
03:35:23,700 --> 03:35:25,260
same section, down to 13,

2653
03:35:29,930 --> 03:35:30,870
15c.

2654
03:35:31,740 --> 03:35:38,750
In addition to or in lieu of a civil penalty, the hearing officer may impose or request a

2655
03:35:38,750 --> 03:35:40,810
corrective action for future compliance.

2656
03:35:46,700 --> 03:35:52,640
That's problematic in a couple of ways, but I guess my question is, does that, if the maximum

2657
03:35:52,640 --> 03:36:01,900
We can impose $1,000 or $6 months in jail, and the hearing officer has the authority to add to that.

2658
03:36:02,660 --> 03:36:04,360
Does that not exceed our authority?

2659
03:36:07,710 --> 03:36:11,510
It doesn't say what the limits are and what the hearing officer could prescribe.

2660
03:36:12,430 --> 03:36:21,620
So the home rule limits on a municipal ordinance that has a criminal effect would be $1,000 fine or $6 months in jail.

2661
03:36:21,620 --> 03:36:32,620
So this is, I think, intended to have just a civil penalty and that's, and the, that does

2662
03:36:32,620 --> 03:36:36,680
not answer your question about, you know, what the hearing officer might impose or correct

2663
03:36:36,680 --> 03:36:38,620
in terms of a corrective plan.

2664
03:36:40,680 --> 03:36:48,580
And you know, one can imagine a scenario in which such a plan does exceed parameters that are

2665
03:36:48,580 --> 03:36:51,520
for enforcement of an ordinance. That's not clear.

2666
03:36:53,240 --> 03:36:55,200
So, well, you raised another question.

2667
03:36:55,320 --> 03:36:58,420
It's a pretty foundational one. I guess we haven't talked about it.

2668
03:36:59,020 --> 03:37:06,980
This is, do we need to identify or in some way define this as civil laws opposed to criminal?

2669
03:37:09,630 --> 03:37:14,250
I mean, if you're going to talk about rules of evidence and witnesses and all those kind of things,

2670
03:37:14,250 --> 03:37:15,290
does that make a difference?

2671
03:37:16,030 --> 03:37:20,530
I think the reference in the ordinance to civil penalty and to the preponderance burden

2672
03:37:21,290 --> 03:37:22,070
have that effect.

2673
03:37:22,070 --> 03:37:24,110
It could be amended to make that more clear.

2674
03:37:31,960 --> 03:37:40,260
Section 336 says that this ordinance doesn't limit other remedies, but it would be clear

2675
03:37:40,260 --> 03:37:46,220
that ordinance does limit its own capacity if other remedies are available.

2676
03:37:50,800 --> 03:37:58,620
It's not to preclude someone availing themselves of this doesn't include their other remedies

2677
03:37:58,620 --> 03:38:04,400
except that hearing officer would preclude their remedies under this ordinance.

2678
03:38:04,840 --> 03:38:05,680
As he was covered

2679
03:38:08,520 --> 03:38:09,360
elsewhere, so you're not.

2680
03:38:12,340 --> 03:38:18,680
Could another, let's say, a state or federal agency that somebody took their complaint to,

2681
03:38:18,680 --> 03:38:28,340
But that agency say, oh yeah, but you have an ordinance in the city of Tucker that you have to avail yourself of first before you can come here.

2682
03:38:28,500 --> 03:38:30,000
You haven't exhausted your other remedies.

2683
03:38:33,340 --> 03:38:35,380
There have been exhaustion of administrative remedies argument.

2684
03:38:35,660 --> 03:38:38,960
I don't think it would be applicable in this context though.

2685
03:38:44,520 --> 03:38:53,140
Part two talks about the city of Tucker, I'm a little lost in the bit of a circular logic here.

2686
03:38:53,840 --> 03:38:56,120
We've exempted all governments this

2687
03:39:00,060 --> 03:39:00,360
ordinance.

2688
03:39:02,280 --> 03:39:06,240
But in this act we say we're not, the City of Tucker shall not discriminate.

2689
03:39:08,120 --> 03:39:12,240
The Tucker has such a policy and I think it's required if I'm right.

2690
03:39:13,880 --> 03:39:16,840
We're sort of required by DCA and state agencies,

2691
03:39:19,170 --> 03:39:21,450
all those things, to do all that.

2692
03:39:21,770 --> 03:39:26,950
So, is the City of Tucker exempted or not exempted?

2693
03:39:33,840 --> 03:39:38,180
Ted, you had talked about putting that in a separate provision within the ordinance.

2694
03:39:39,200 --> 03:39:45,020
The city would be exempt from the procedural remedies in terms of the complaint hearing officer.

2695
03:39:45,680 --> 03:39:49,600
Essentially because you can't really find yourself.

2696
03:39:51,540 --> 03:39:58,260
But the part two is intended to make clear a law with respect to how the city sees itself.

2697
03:39:59,120 --> 03:40:01,140
And it should not be exercising this kind of discrimination.

2698
03:40:02,160 --> 03:40:03,940
How you would enforce that is not clear.

2699
03:40:03,940 --> 03:40:04,800
Okay.

2700
03:40:09,690 --> 03:40:15,270
And we did discuss that perhaps that is a separate ordinance. Correct. We did have

2701
03:40:15,270 --> 03:40:17,750
that conversation about all the ourselves accountable.

2702
03:40:26,310 --> 03:40:29,590
The last sentence is not a sentence.

2703
03:40:30,370 --> 03:40:31,830
What do we mean to say there?

2704
03:40:39,180 --> 03:40:43,500
I can't hear you and I'm sorry. Sorry, I'm implement a plan.

2705
03:40:44,760 --> 03:40:48,200
So we talk here to show great and implement a plan plan to include educational

2706
03:40:48,200 --> 03:40:51,960
opportunities at least once per year. The plan. So that plan that's referred to

2707
03:40:52,680 --> 03:40:53,160
we're

2708
03:40:57,350 --> 03:41:00,830
going to distribute it as we called for in the resolution last year.

2709
03:41:02,910 --> 03:41:03,390
Holders

2710
03:41:03,390 --> 03:41:07,030
of Occupational Tech certificates, but a lot more than just businesses are

2711
03:41:07,030 --> 03:41:07,830
covered by that.

2712
03:41:11,380 --> 03:41:15,600
Complete that. We'd have to deal with property owners,

2713
03:41:16,420 --> 03:41:20,280
sellers, lessers, brokers. There are other areas of accommodation.

2714
03:41:23,520 --> 03:41:24,140
We're not just

2715
03:41:24,140 --> 03:41:30,070
talking about employment. Well, and a lot of those folks would be referred

2716
03:41:32,090 --> 03:41:35,250
automatically as well. But yeah, I could see that like real estate agents.

2717
03:41:39,730 --> 03:41:40,510
So what you're thinking?

2718
03:41:40,810 --> 03:41:48,770
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. And I was envisioning at some point when this is obviously approved

2719
03:41:48,770 --> 03:41:55,990
and we're implementing it that we would have perhaps a communications plan and we part of our yearly

2720
03:41:57,590 --> 03:42:03,690
objectives to speak in the communications plan. And I'd go back. I'll ask on that point too

2721
03:42:04,010 --> 03:42:09,690
several of the other cities that did this because I

2722
03:42:12,150 --> 03:42:16,470
know many of them maybe did not call for this to be shared through the occupational tax

2723
03:42:16,470 --> 03:42:20,750
certificate, but others did, and so I would see how they would handle that with the accommodations piece.

2724
03:42:28,520 --> 03:42:38,100
Questions about how it would be applied, but I think you would refer into those hypotheticals before what a business or a business

2725
03:42:38,100 --> 03:42:43,060
business owner have a right to file a complaint against protesters or people on social media

2726
03:42:43,060 --> 03:42:48,500
picketers if the business or the business owner believes they're being discriminated against.

2727
03:42:48,940 --> 03:42:49,820
In other words,

2728
03:42:52,210 --> 03:43:01,700
some group takes up a campaign to malign a business in the public square electronic

2729
03:43:01,700 --> 03:43:08,180
or otherwise. And that business believes there are the subject of discrimination. This is

2730
03:43:08,180 --> 03:43:14,700
all about arming them and not seeking equity or justice or anything else. Under this

2731
03:43:14,700 --> 03:43:19,080
ordinance does that business or business owner have a complaint?

2732
03:43:23,980 --> 03:43:24,480
Kind of goes

2733
03:43:24,480 --> 03:43:30,500
your earlier point. Yeah I mean Ted help me out here I'm not a lawyer but I

2734
03:43:30,500 --> 03:43:37,820
don't see that I don't see it under any areas of discrimination within this

2735
03:43:37,820 --> 03:43:45,740
ordinance. So since 30-303 defines the rights that are being protected, you know, because

2736
03:43:45,740 --> 03:43:49,140
it's a complete different process, someone could try to make an argument, but I don't think

2737
03:43:49,140 --> 03:43:55,100
that's your scenario, Mr. Mayor, addresses the aim of this language.

2738
03:43:58,800 --> 03:44:04,240
Well, I'll just make the point again that if it's for everybody, a business owner can be

2739
03:44:04,240 --> 03:44:10,200
discriminated against. And I think we've seen cases. I'm not going to argue it. I'll

2740
03:44:10,200 --> 03:44:11,400
just ask the question for now.

2741
03:44:13,720 --> 03:44:19,040
Is there a notion within all this of a hostile environment?

2742
03:44:19,860 --> 03:44:29,020
In other words, if I enter a place of public accommodation or a hotel, a store, a public

2743
03:44:29,020 --> 03:44:29,320
street.

2744
03:44:32,670 --> 03:44:39,630
Does the owner have to say something to me directly, or is it enough that they

2745
03:44:39,630 --> 03:44:41,870
clearly don't want my kind in their place?

2746
03:44:48,120 --> 03:44:51,800
Because it's a complaint-driven process, I think if you can make a primafacial case that

2747
03:44:51,800 --> 03:44:58,080
you were discriminated against on any of the criteria, based gender, doesn't have to be

2748
03:44:58,080 --> 03:44:59,460
somebody said I don't like white guy.

2749
03:45:00,340 --> 03:45:17,380
No. If they just make it clear that I'm not welcome. I mean, again, you know, you never know what the hearing officer's going to do with this or what the ovens would show, but I think if you can make a promise, a case based on any numbers, scenarios, verbal, you know, just general how you're treated. Sure.

2750
03:45:23,550 --> 03:45:35,690
Penalties, I don't see any. Are there penalties? Or would you consider them in place for abuse of the ordinance? If you have a person who just 50 bucks done mean anything to them.

2751
03:45:35,690 --> 03:45:39,290
if they can get their pound of flesh by repeatedly accusing somebody,

2752
03:45:41,450 --> 03:45:42,750
if y'all talk about

2753
03:45:42,750 --> 03:45:46,020
that kind of abuse?

2754
03:45:47,870 --> 03:45:49,050
No, we did not.

2755
03:45:54,380 --> 03:46:02,440
Would we be breaking our own ordinance if we seek one protected class instead of another,

2756
03:46:02,980 --> 03:46:10,500
or if we seek anyone based on any of these characteristics rather than their qualifications,

2757
03:46:10,780 --> 03:46:15,040
would we be breaking our own ordinance in the case of board's commission?

2758
03:46:20,220 --> 03:46:22,860
Potentially disordinates and federal law.

2759
03:46:22,960 --> 03:46:23,300
Let

2760
03:46:33,740 --> 03:46:36,080
me ask this quick question for

2761
03:46:38,440 --> 03:46:42,300
boards and commissions, our employees.

2762
03:46:42,560 --> 03:46:45,840
I'm just asking because I don't think we do and I don't think it's our intent to do that.

2763
03:46:46,060 --> 03:46:48,160
But I was just a little clarity on that.

2764
03:46:49,320 --> 03:46:57,200
For boards and commissions, it depends on, you know, the courts would look at whether or not there's a property right interest in that appointment.

2765
03:46:57,200 --> 03:47:04,240
If there's even a stipend, they would definitely say that there is a property right interest in that position.

2766
03:47:04,400 --> 03:47:05,640
And the discrimination would be prohibited.

2767
03:47:06,060 --> 03:47:11,260
The less clear question is if it's a volunteer position, and there's no compensation.

2768
03:47:18,900 --> 03:47:31,140
I was unclear about, there's a reference, and I'm sorry, I don't know where it is, but basically says businesses wouldn't be required to alter their buildings,

2769
03:47:31,140 --> 03:47:34,360
or do something that required them to get a building permit.

2770
03:47:35,680 --> 03:47:43,060
So I don't know what happens in the case where a business has what they have,

2771
03:47:43,320 --> 03:47:45,760
small business, a couple of restrooms.

2772
03:47:47,540 --> 03:47:52,700
So they're not required to build more, change their physical layout,

2773
03:47:53,200 --> 03:47:55,000
but what do they do?

2774
03:47:55,580 --> 03:47:58,700
And is there a claim against them if they just say,

2775
03:47:58,700 --> 03:48:03,000
Okay, you know, I've fallen that category of, I don't have to do anything.

2776
03:48:04,540 --> 03:48:10,000
So they can just carry on as they have, and if a claim arises, am I supposed to make

2777
03:48:10,000 --> 03:48:10,440
a complaint?

2778
03:48:11,780 --> 03:48:14,740
That's their defense, and the hearing officer says the

2779
03:48:32,050 --> 03:48:33,530
Americans with disabilities act.

2780
03:48:38,020 --> 03:48:38,700
I see it in the well.

2781
03:48:39,400 --> 03:48:45,510
We're waiting on the comments from Ted, no, I'm sorry, I was, could you hit the question?

2782
03:48:45,510 --> 03:48:51,970
But, well, Ann points out, there's an item in paragraph seven under exceptions that says

2783
03:48:52,510 --> 03:48:58,390
a business is not required to make changes to any existing facility that would require a building permit,

2784
03:48:59,030 --> 03:49:01,730
except as otherwise required by the ADA.

2785
03:49:02,770 --> 03:49:05,270
Other provisions in law. So this came up a long time ago.

2786
03:49:05,530 --> 03:49:14,490
Like, are you going to make every small business in Tucker build out a third bathroom or a different arrangement within their facility?

2787
03:49:14,490 --> 03:49:20,390
And this is our call. This was a way to say, no, we're not trying to go overboard.

2788
03:49:20,750 --> 03:49:24,770
There are cases where they're small and whatever. But what happens?

2789
03:49:25,430 --> 03:49:29,570
Are we saying that's a defense to someone's complaint?

2790
03:49:31,610 --> 03:49:34,890
I would have to fill a building permit to do that and so I don't have to.

2791
03:49:36,350 --> 03:49:41,990
I think at a minimum, it is a stop all against a remedy plan

2792
03:49:41,990 --> 03:49:43,450
that a hearing officer might try to impose.

2793
03:49:46,500 --> 03:49:49,040
In other words, that's not something within

2794
03:49:49,040 --> 03:49:54,480
the power of the hearing officer, or it's not a remedy, you could obtain through exercising

2795
03:49:54,480 --> 03:49:55,940
the complaint under the ordinance.

2796
03:49:59,580 --> 03:50:02,160
So we have an organization in town we're all familiar

2797
03:50:02,160 --> 03:50:03,140
with called networks.

2798
03:50:05,930 --> 03:50:11,390
My question is would networks, I'll ask the question, would networks be considered

2799
03:50:11,390 --> 03:50:17,670
to religious organization under 30-30, excuse me, 30-30-20-15.

2800
03:50:27,720 --> 03:50:31,220
So, 33-20-20 is definitions.

2801
03:50:32,200 --> 03:50:36,040
Per graph, 15 defines a religious organization.

2802
03:50:38,810 --> 03:50:41,950
And I'd like to know, as an example, just

2803
03:50:41,950 --> 03:50:46,470
because it's what I'm very familiar with, would networks be considered a religious organization

2804
03:50:46,470 --> 03:50:47,150
under that?

2805
03:50:48,290 --> 03:50:51,610
I think we'd have to look at their by-laws. I don't know if they're, I don't think they're

2806
03:50:54,090 --> 03:50:58,990
It's a little tricky because it actually does name that in the mission statement, but

2807
03:50:59,440 --> 03:51:00,090
you're on the board.

2808
03:51:00,750 --> 03:51:11,250
Yeah, so I think it really does come down to what you said, the by-laws and like, is

2809
03:51:11,250 --> 03:51:19,740
the express purpose what this is named or is it doing something else and it's just funded

2810
03:51:19,740 --> 03:51:24,680
by a religious organization, and unfortunately, networks isn't a little bit of a one-of-a-degree

2811
03:51:24,680 --> 03:51:25,620
spots, so.

2812
03:51:25,960 --> 03:51:27,780
And it could be faith-based social agency?

2813
03:51:30,550 --> 03:51:31,630
Unintended consequences.

2814
03:51:32,130 --> 03:51:32,850
That's what I'm looking for.

2815
03:51:34,450 --> 03:51:42,110
So, if an organization like Rotary or Tucker Business has some community business sort

2816
03:51:42,110 --> 03:51:48,070
of organization invites a speaker on a topic that promotes one group at the expense of

2817
03:51:48,070 --> 03:51:54,490
another. In any of these groups, pick your topic. Does an attendee have a claim?

2818
03:51:55,870 --> 03:52:01,350
In other words, meeting people who are invited to, they invite a speaker who

2819
03:52:02,410 --> 03:52:09,790
advocates that whatever it is, he is putting one group in front of another. Does

2820
03:52:09,790 --> 03:52:15,010
an attendee or a member of that club have a claim?

2821
03:52:19,140 --> 03:52:21,360
If a business in Tucker what's

2822
03:52:23,380 --> 03:52:29,820
on a training for, and we're talking businesses under 15 employees, what's on a training

2823
03:52:30,980 --> 03:52:39,310
that promotes ideas about systemic racism and historic oppression and what our response

2824
03:52:39,310 --> 03:52:45,390
should be to that, is that employee have a claim against his employer.

2825
03:52:49,260 --> 03:52:51,300
Is that a question for me, I'm not a

2826
03:52:53,310 --> 03:52:53,590
committee?

2827
03:52:55,530 --> 03:53:00,170
I mean, I think it sounds like from the hypotheticals we're talking about more of a first

2828
03:53:00,170 --> 03:53:07,190
amendment type issue. You know, I think to have a claim, you'd have to be able to allege

2829
03:53:07,190 --> 03:53:11,510
some deprivation of one of these things in section 30-30-30-3 related to appointment,

2830
03:53:12,270 --> 03:53:19,070
denial of accommodation, a place of public accommodation, right to engage in a property transaction

2831
03:53:19,070 --> 03:53:27,130
or be a witness, testify and exercise, any other right. So, you'd have to cast your complaint in such

2832
03:53:27,130 --> 03:53:31,970
a way as to make out a case that you have been deprived under that section, not just

2833
03:53:31,970 --> 03:53:33,170
that you heard something you didn't like.

2834
03:53:33,850 --> 03:53:37,810
Well, then I'm not talking about first amendment that my speech has been suppressed.

2835
03:53:38,590 --> 03:53:42,290
I'm talking about the, let's take the case of an employer doing training.

2836
03:53:42,650 --> 03:53:45,250
We've heard lots of these stories in the last few years.

2837
03:53:47,770 --> 03:53:57,820
That employee has been forced through training that indicates discrimination against him, that

2838
03:53:57,820 --> 03:54:03,280
that employer is going to favor certain groups in order to correct past behavior or whatever

2839
03:54:03,280 --> 03:54:05,300
they perceive as systemic.

2840
03:54:09,460 --> 03:54:10,980
I think there's a potential complaint there.

2841
03:54:13,930 --> 03:54:15,250
Well, if that's not what the committee meant,

2842
03:54:17,840 --> 03:54:19,220
it's something that needs to be considered.

2843
03:54:22,920 --> 03:54:26,440
What about misusing or refusing to use preferred pronouns?

2844
03:54:29,520 --> 03:54:30,060
I'm sorry, no.

2845
03:54:30,120 --> 03:54:32,500
Well, I told you a long time ago I was going to call on you.

2846
03:54:33,220 --> 03:54:33,400
Please go ahead.

2847
03:54:33,400 --> 03:54:35,960
Do you think we can have a break for 10 minutes?

2848
03:54:36,260 --> 03:54:37,920
Please, we've been here for four hours.

2849
03:54:39,080 --> 03:54:39,880
What's your pleasure,

2850
03:54:42,030 --> 03:54:42,570
10 minutes?

2851
03:54:47,840 --> 03:54:49,960
Let me ask this because I see staff.

2852
03:54:50,980 --> 03:54:52,220
Everybody else, it's 11.

2853
03:54:52,440 --> 03:54:53,360
This is a work session.

2854
03:54:53,840 --> 03:54:54,540
It's a discussion.

2855
03:54:54,900 --> 03:54:56,300
There's no decision to be made.

2856
03:54:58,520 --> 03:55:01,020
Would it be OK to continue the conversation?

2857
03:55:01,980 --> 03:55:04,080
I know you're asking these things in public.

2858
03:55:04,700 --> 03:55:08,120
We can take that up next go around.

2859
03:55:08,120 --> 03:55:11,260
or as others have done, they've shared these things

2860
03:55:11,260 --> 03:55:14,760
and we've talked through it and asked to look to address it.

2861
03:55:21,070 --> 03:55:25,850
So, do you want to share that with us

2862
03:55:26,470 --> 03:55:28,470
to take back to the working group

2863
03:55:28,470 --> 03:55:30,690
and work with Ted through those

2864
03:55:32,330 --> 03:55:34,130
as we've done with other folks?

2865
03:55:35,210 --> 03:55:37,610
Do you want to list them out tonight

2866
03:55:37,610 --> 03:55:40,110
and then we come back and answer them at a later time?

2867
03:55:40,110 --> 03:55:42,870
I'm just saying there's no decision tonight.

2868
03:55:44,470 --> 03:55:53,010
So wanting to be respectful of that, but I'm also, you know, you know, it's a public

2869
03:55:53,010 --> 03:55:53,270
now.

2870
03:55:53,450 --> 03:55:54,170
You've brought a report.

2871
03:55:54,370 --> 03:55:57,110
You've done work on behalf of the city with city council members.

2872
03:55:58,500 --> 03:56:01,910
It's important to me that these questions, the public knows these questions are being

2873
03:56:01,910 --> 03:56:08,230
asked and dealt with and considered before we proceed to, you know, finalize a proposal.

2874
03:56:08,230 --> 03:56:13,370
So if you want to continue this at a future work session, or

2875
03:56:18,170 --> 03:56:20,410
do you want to go ahead and list them out and then we'll

2876
03:56:23,030 --> 03:56:30,330
I'll give them to you, but I want to have the discussion in the public view. That's the point. No open records open meeting side

2877
03:56:33,820 --> 03:56:39,820
Could we come back with that discussion like you list those out we may not have answers for all those tonight

2878
03:56:39,820 --> 03:56:40,660
That's what I'm saying

2879
03:56:40,660 --> 03:56:44,560
So then we can come back in another time and address that publicly.

2880
03:56:46,710 --> 03:56:48,970
Well, if you're saying we can take a five minute break.

2881
03:56:49,190 --> 03:56:51,810
We can draw a line and pick up where we left off at some future meeting.

2882
03:56:52,110 --> 03:56:52,970
I'd be willing to do that.

2883
03:56:56,370 --> 03:56:58,130
Rested council, I'm looking at you guys.

2884
03:57:01,740 --> 03:57:03,480
How many more questions do you have, Frank?

2885
03:57:05,060 --> 03:57:05,840
A couple of pages.

2886
03:57:07,120 --> 03:57:10,480
Well, if you could give me an average of time, what do you got?

2887
03:57:12,780 --> 03:57:14,160
For an hour, two hours.

2888
03:57:18,620 --> 03:57:20,940
I guess it depends on the conversation.

2889
03:57:25,010 --> 03:57:26,410
I could do half an hour an hour.

2890
03:57:26,410 --> 03:57:32,270
Listen, I don't want this to be perceived as I'm playing some long drag it out kind of

2891
03:57:32,270 --> 03:57:32,490
game.

2892
03:57:32,670 --> 03:57:36,670
These are legitimate questions to me, and there are people who have either asked me these

2893
03:57:36,670 --> 03:57:41,170
questions or asked me to get an answer, or there are things that I arrived at reading

2894
03:57:41,170 --> 03:57:45,770
through the plain language of the ordinance, and I didn't bring this ordinance, and I didn't

2895
03:57:45,770 --> 03:57:49,790
bring it in the middle of an election season, or in the middle of a public works referendum,

2896
03:57:49,790 --> 03:57:53,670
and we're a little of an economic development strategy plan.

2897
03:57:56,310 --> 03:57:59,050
We can decide to do what we want on our own timing.

2898
03:57:59,210 --> 03:58:00,530
I had that question today as well.

2899
03:58:00,650 --> 03:58:01,790
Yeah, I respect that.

2900
03:58:01,890 --> 03:58:04,030
I was just asking because I would like a bathroom break

2901
03:58:04,030 --> 03:58:04,830
for five minutes.

2902
03:58:05,050 --> 03:58:07,010
And then we can keep going for another two hours.

2903
03:58:07,510 --> 03:58:08,290
I'm ready to go.

2904
03:58:08,810 --> 03:58:10,190
I just would like a break, please.

2905
03:58:10,810 --> 03:58:11,030
Sure.

2906
03:58:11,330 --> 03:58:11,610
All right.

2907
03:58:12,650 --> 03:58:13,430
I have,

2908
03:58:16,000 --> 03:58:17,500
it's coming up on 10 after.

2909
03:58:18,580 --> 03:58:21,540
You want to say, quarter past, we'll be back in here.

2910
03:58:21,540 --> 03:58:24,220
6 minutes.

2911
04:04:48,530 --> 04:04:58,010
Good, finally, you know, this meeting started at five o'clock, Salt Lake City time, so I'm going to eat my dinner now. So I'm going to have to leave a little rest.

2912
04:05:16,690 --> 04:05:20,500
Taking care of, John's going to, okay, I

2913
04:05:45,020 --> 04:05:48,260
was asking about preferred pronouns, which is

2914
04:05:51,680 --> 04:06:00,500
the intention of the committee that misusing or refusing to use requested preferred pronouns would be the basis for a claim.

2915
04:06:08,680 --> 04:06:13,080
We did not discuss that. Ted, would that be a basis for a claim?

2916
04:06:13,080 --> 04:06:18,190
Because it's a complaint driven process, I think someone could make that claim, certainly,

2917
04:06:18,690 --> 04:06:22,270
whether or not that constitutes employment discrimination, if that were in the context,

2918
04:06:22,750 --> 04:06:24,950
would you sort of note that process?

2919
04:06:25,930 --> 04:06:30,690
Well, it could be public accommodation or any of the areas that are covered, right?

2920
04:06:31,970 --> 04:06:32,330
Could be.

2921
04:06:32,430 --> 04:06:33,670
I think employment is most likely.

2922
04:07:10,620 --> 04:07:11,380
I cannot help it.

2923
04:07:11,720 --> 04:07:11,960
I

2924
04:07:18,870 --> 04:07:21,550
can time for you to buy items or go away.

2925
04:07:30,180 --> 04:07:38,480
So I'm interested in the application to public events, festivals on Main Street,

2926
04:07:40,610 --> 04:07:40,950
protests,

2927
04:07:41,730 --> 04:07:42,830
political speech.

2928
04:07:45,670 --> 04:07:51,510
We've talked before about we can't, the city can't limit the content of

2929
04:07:54,130 --> 04:07:54,990
an event or

2930
04:07:54,990 --> 04:07:57,310
a person holding a sign or what have you.

2931
04:07:57,850 --> 04:08:05,190
So what if that event or sign or whatever communication is going on around that is,

2932
04:08:08,070 --> 04:08:08,570
I guess

2933
04:08:08,570 --> 04:08:13,730
can't just be offensive but what if a person says look the city rented the city

2934
04:08:13,730 --> 04:08:19,130
streets they're funding this event which is creating a hostile environment or

2935
04:08:21,790 --> 04:08:28,550
pressing upon me in some way that it feels like the city is saying this race

2936
04:08:28,550 --> 04:08:31,230
whatever other classification that

2937
04:08:33,250 --> 04:08:37,270
should have some sort of priority over me I'm

2938
04:08:37,270 --> 04:08:41,190
not saying they have very well but maybe you can imagine the scenario that I'm

2939
04:08:44,710 --> 04:08:50,170
Isn't it only if you're denied services because of that class, it's not just like, I

2940
04:08:52,440 --> 04:08:55,460
mean I guess I'm asking a question, I thought it was related to the denial of services.

2941
04:08:56,440 --> 04:09:03,160
There's language in the ordinance about contributing directly or indirectly to, I

2942
04:09:05,720 --> 04:09:08,820
don't know exactly where that is, but try to take a fast look.

2943
04:09:13,430 --> 04:09:15,390
13 is

2944
04:09:19,960 --> 04:09:22,860
on your page 7 paragraph 13.

2945
04:09:23,400 --> 04:09:30,500
Plays of Public Resort accommodation assemblage or amusement, which brings to mind city festival

2946
04:09:30,500 --> 04:09:36,540
or a private festival held on public streets that solicits or accepts patronage or trade

2947
04:09:36,540 --> 04:09:40,640
of the general public or that is supported directly or indirectly by government funds.

2948
04:09:43,560 --> 04:09:48,080
So that's the definition of a place of public resort accommodation assemblage or amusement.

2949
04:09:48,080 --> 04:09:49,520
So there's

2950
04:09:51,950 --> 04:09:52,850
all kinds of scenarios.

2951
04:09:57,780 --> 04:10:00,220
Wasn't there one as Supreme Court won in Boston?

2952
04:10:00,920 --> 04:10:01,760
I can't remember the name.

2953
04:10:02,100 --> 04:10:02,800
Well, it was the parade.

2954
04:10:02,900 --> 04:10:03,880
It was St. Patrick's Day parade.

2955
04:10:04,080 --> 04:10:04,720
St. Patrick's Day parade.

2956
04:10:05,460 --> 04:10:13,600
I think the issue is whether or not you're denied the term

2957
04:10:13,600 --> 04:10:15,980
here, the language issues here is a full enjoyment.

2958
04:10:16,540 --> 04:10:18,940
If someone is saying something, you know,

2959
04:10:20,800 --> 04:10:22,600
whatever it is they're saying, that you take

2960
04:10:22,600 --> 04:10:28,240
to, you know, arguably that's, I mean, you could make a complaint for it. I'm not sure

2961
04:10:28,240 --> 04:10:33,520
this language, you know, the most tearing officers would hear that as a valid complaint,

2962
04:10:33,600 --> 04:10:38,940
if you were denied access, that certainly would be a valid basis for a complaint. I think

2963
04:10:38,940 --> 04:10:44,380
that's kind of where the courts have fallen, where you've seen, you know, their state laws

2964
04:10:44,380 --> 04:10:45,380
and federal laws on that.

2965
04:10:48,650 --> 04:10:50,150
Well, clarify

2966
04:10:52,870 --> 04:10:54,990
my concern, but I guess context

2967
04:10:58,000 --> 04:10:59,640
of what I've been asking about tonight

2968
04:11:00,680 --> 04:11:06,840
Question really is just did the committee discuss talk about it consider those kinds of hypotheticals

2969
04:11:06,840 --> 04:11:16,860
And this is ordinance have any bearing on those kinds of things so if the city grants a parade permit a group that

2970
04:11:17,480 --> 04:11:22,620
Some citizen finds noxious does that citizen have a complaint to say the government is sponsoring

2971
04:11:24,340 --> 04:11:30,600
discrimination, because they're allowing and promoting this group to give its message

2972
04:11:30,940 --> 04:11:37,420
on a public street that I help pay for, and I am oppressed by it.

2973
04:11:45,590 --> 04:11:53,590
Loser in a case, so the respondent, the accused, loses, and that person or organization simply

2974
04:11:53,590 --> 04:11:54,690
ignores the fine.

2975
04:12:11,770 --> 04:12:12,470
If

2976
04:12:14,640 --> 04:12:22,100
someone fails to comply, arguably they're in contempt of whatever that penalty or compliance

2977
04:12:22,100 --> 04:12:27,060
order is, there's no procedure identified in the ordinance for that.

2978
04:12:29,010 --> 04:12:37,360
If it's a hearing officer as opposed to a municipal court, does that change the repercussions

2979
04:12:37,360 --> 04:12:38,500
of that action?

2980
04:12:38,500 --> 04:12:44,660
Well, the municipal court would have consent power to enforce an order within the limits

2981
04:12:44,660 --> 04:12:48,760
of what municipal courts are allowed to do, which is a $200 fine and 10 days incarceration.

2982
04:12:51,040 --> 04:12:56,040
There's no, you know, particular prescription here for what the hearing officer can do.

2983
04:12:56,160 --> 04:13:00,900
You can arguably amend the ordinance to confer the same powers that hearing officer, but it's

2984
04:13:00,900 --> 04:13:01,340
not clear.

2985
04:13:02,640 --> 04:13:11,020
Ted, correct me if I'm wrong, would there not be an ability to appeal to the Superior

2986
04:13:11,020 --> 04:13:17,720
Court of Decap County to enforce it beyond what the local ordinance would permit a municipality

2987
04:13:17,720 --> 04:13:18,440
to do?

2988
04:13:19,940 --> 04:13:24,540
I'm not sure exactly how that would work.

2989
04:13:24,540 --> 04:13:31,140
If in that scenario, you know, the hearing officer of this, that's been employed by the

2990
04:13:31,140 --> 04:13:38,240
city to overhear this process issues a judgment, you know, it's not, I mean, you could

2991
04:13:38,240 --> 04:13:42,920
language in here that you could sue to enforce the judgment, but I think we need something

2992
04:13:42,920 --> 04:13:44,720
like that in order to be able to do that.

2993
04:13:47,140 --> 04:13:49,340
And that was exactly my thoughts, thanks.

2994
04:13:50,660 --> 04:14:02,380
So for us laypeople something could be done in the ordinance that would be okay that would be even in the context of a hearing officer as opposed to municipal court.

2995
04:14:02,480 --> 04:14:04,660
We could put something in there. It's just not there now.

2996
04:14:06,380 --> 04:14:12,680
Yes, though I do not want to have 100% certainty that that remedy is effective.

2997
04:14:31,550 --> 04:14:36,610
I would agree, I mean we do struggle with enforcement even in municipal court, cities under

2998
04:14:36,610 --> 04:14:42,050
the home relaxed, cannot create new causes of action in other courts.

2999
04:14:43,130 --> 04:14:53,050
So, and that's a challenge, you could put this in the municipal court, you could confer to give the hearing of the powers of municipal court, which would then make that remedy of

3000
04:14:53,050 --> 04:14:58,790
of assuming to enforce or holding in contempt more likely to be successful.

3001
04:15:02,160 --> 04:15:11,630
Is there any legal way to keep claims of discrimination private until they're resolved?

3002
04:15:14,780 --> 04:15:17,920
Under the way this is written or something we could change about it?

3003
04:15:21,220 --> 04:15:27,490
Not to my knowledge. There's no way to remove this comes up at

3004
04:15:33,020 --> 04:15:44,500
the whole campaign contribution ethics laws is really sort of a big game of gacha. The value that it is being able to claim that you're opponent is something terrible and he's being investigated by the ethics board.

3005
04:15:45,180 --> 04:15:47,240
This strikes me in a little bit the same way.

3006
04:15:47,960 --> 04:15:55,580
I can go pay my $50 and file a claim and spend a month telling everybody how horrible

3007
04:15:55,580 --> 04:16:01,660
this business or property owner, whoever it is, isn't it, by golly, I've filed a claim

3008
04:16:01,660 --> 04:16:02,040
against it.

3009
04:16:04,030 --> 04:16:09,170
That's true, but it's also true if I sue somebody in superior court, complaints of public

3010
04:16:09,170 --> 04:16:14,630
document and people can do with it what they will, it does not protect the complainant

3011
04:16:14,630 --> 04:16:23,090
from defamation if they have done something in a way that is untruthful like that, though.

3012
04:16:23,470 --> 04:16:28,250
Does the respondent have a claim of some sort against the

3013
04:16:30,880 --> 04:16:31,520
claimant?

3014
04:16:32,700 --> 04:16:37,840
After the fact, they've been found not guilty, it was frivolous, whatever.

3015
04:16:38,240 --> 04:16:41,980
That's been established by the hearing officer or whatever the end of the process is.

3016
04:16:42,400 --> 04:16:46,660
And the original respondent take action against the original claimant.

3017
04:16:48,420 --> 04:16:53,720
I think if the respondent can make a case for defamation that they've been

3018
04:16:53,720 --> 04:16:58,300
defamed by materially false accusations, yes, they could sue the complainant

3019
04:16:58,300 --> 04:17:00,920
in a superior court or not under the ordinance.

3020
04:17:04,300 --> 04:17:10,050
Something even that gives something short of filing a defamation lawsuit,

3021
04:17:10,310 --> 04:17:13,330
we could give that respondent some rights to

3022
04:17:16,080 --> 04:17:19,360
make the claimant pay his expenses

3023
04:17:19,360 --> 04:17:19,820
is something.

3024
04:17:21,560 --> 04:17:22,160
Presumably?

3025
04:17:23,020 --> 04:17:23,620
Yes.

3026
04:17:25,020 --> 04:17:34,720
We could, but Mr. Mayor, I'm sorry, but most laws and court rules do not favor that in

3027
04:17:34,720 --> 04:17:36,660
state courts, only federal courts.

3028
04:17:39,130 --> 04:17:45,150
So I, right, and what I'm saying is, you know, it's a very good thought of courts here, but

3029
04:17:45,910 --> 04:17:47,130
I don't think it's practical.

3030
04:17:49,080 --> 04:17:55,580
So my question is actually also about the kind of penalties language because I know we

3031
04:17:55,580 --> 04:18:03,380
have it framed as a fine, but I do know of a situation where somebody was evicted because

3032
04:18:03,380 --> 04:18:11,560
of their gender identity, not in Tucker, not in Tucker, and so when you're evicted your

3033
04:18:11,560 --> 04:18:13,280
belongings are thrown out, right?

3034
04:18:13,280 --> 04:18:19,960
And so if you are found to be discriminated against by this hearing process, is there

3035
04:18:19,960 --> 04:18:25,080
any situation where there is redress available to if somebody has lost their belongings

3036
04:18:25,080 --> 04:18:30,840
or are we just stopping at the fine of, like, you have to pay the fine and move on?

3037
04:18:33,070 --> 04:18:33,790
That was not brought up.

3038
04:18:37,370 --> 04:18:40,150
Do we have, as a municipality or a hearing officer,

3039
04:18:45,310 --> 04:18:46,530
managed that kind of redress?

3040
04:18:47,630 --> 04:18:55,070
So that's more than the nature of restorative justice, which is really more part of the criminal process.

3041
04:18:56,730 --> 04:19:06,070
Somebody finding themselves in that situation may or may not have a claim against their landlord in a contract state that they could file, either in state court or spirit court.

3042
04:19:06,070 --> 04:19:06,630
have

3043
04:19:13,280 --> 04:19:14,780
a provision that I

3044
04:19:16,900 --> 04:19:24,060
think the answer was no. We were looking for a way to the same vein of can we keep it private until the cases resolved.

3045
04:19:25,200 --> 04:19:42,240
And the complainant lose the privilege or their standing or penalties might ensue if they choose to go out into the public and malign a business that they may have filed a legitimate claim against.

3046
04:19:42,240 --> 04:19:45,440
But before it's resolved, they choose to speak

3047
04:19:47,550 --> 04:19:50,770
ill of a month's social media or whatever the case might be.

3048
04:19:51,690 --> 04:19:54,250
Is there a vision like that? Something we could consider?

3049
04:19:55,030 --> 04:19:55,910
Potentially, yes.

3050
04:19:56,390 --> 04:19:56,570
One

3051
04:20:06,080 --> 04:20:12,500
of the groups that's not protected is people under 40, as to why that is.

3052
04:20:13,740 --> 04:20:18,360
People over 40 are protected under all kinds of age discrimination laws.

3053
04:20:21,040 --> 04:20:29,580
businesses under 15 people that's the threshold in those laws seem to be allowed to discriminate

3054
04:20:29,580 --> 04:20:31,080
against people under 40.

3055
04:20:36,240 --> 04:20:38,620
We were asked that question. I think we discussed it too, but

3056
04:20:38,620 --> 04:20:46,700
that's the federal laws are covering that as well. Not for companies under whatever the number of

3057
04:20:46,700 --> 04:20:51,180
employees threshold is. Yeah. It's a local company. It's a restaurant. It's got 10 employees.

3058
04:20:56,620 --> 04:20:57,140
They're

3059
04:20:57,140 --> 04:21:03,260
that based on age. No. That's discrimination based on age. So that's okay under this

3060
04:21:03,260 --> 04:21:03,480
organ.

3061
04:21:08,730 --> 04:21:12,390
Ted, you're not. I wasn't following the question.

3062
04:21:14,890 --> 04:21:16,530
I'm sorry folks and this may

3063
04:21:16,530 --> 04:21:24,490
help you. That's my so-goal Ted. For companies under 15, aren't there still, or am I incorrect?

3064
04:21:24,710 --> 04:21:31,470
Because it's not my area of law, state remedies that may exist outside of the federal concept.

3065
04:21:33,670 --> 04:21:38,630
I don't know of any in Georgia, I don't know of any state law in Georgia that would protect you.

3066
04:21:39,870 --> 04:21:43,110
I'm looking at, I'm just trying to follow the discussion.

3067
04:21:45,110 --> 04:21:47,970
I mean, age discrimination would have to be against someone over the age of 40.

3068
04:21:48,990 --> 04:21:57,490
But the employer is not in the ordinance, is not really defined as having a certain number of employees.

3069
04:21:57,750 --> 04:22:02,410
So the federal law, that's the same number of 40, but you have to have, I think it's 50 employees

3070
04:22:03,150 --> 04:22:16,930
under the Federal Nature Discrimination Act for the employer to have that many employees read and make a case, so this presumably picks up everybody, every employer who has fewer employees than the federal law was, I think, was the intent of this.

3071
04:22:16,930 --> 04:22:36,290
I just thought there was sexual harassment that if the EEOC doesn't give a right to sue within what is the six months that there are still two-year statutes on state law claims that could be brought if I'm wrong and wrong it's not my area law but I just wanted to maybe shortcut something so I apologize for the interruption everyone.

3072
04:22:36,290 --> 04:22:42,110
That's all right, and I may have had it upside down, so our ordinance says you can't

3073
04:22:42,110 --> 04:22:49,510
discriminate against anybody based on any age and the matter how many people you employ.

3074
04:22:50,490 --> 04:22:58,550
If you have, you can't discriminate against anybody 40 or more years old on the basis of age.

3075
04:23:00,610 --> 04:23:05,510
And presumably the way this is written, because you get sort of referred to the federal

3076
04:23:05,510 --> 04:23:10,530
agency, if you have a federal claims, if your employer has, and I think it's 50, it don't

3077
04:23:10,530 --> 04:23:11,170
hold me to that.

3078
04:23:11,390 --> 04:23:12,230
It's some number like that.

3079
04:23:13,170 --> 04:23:18,150
The hearing officer would presumably send you to go sue in federal law or talk to the agency

3080
04:23:18,150 --> 04:23:19,110
that would hear your complaint.

3081
04:23:20,070 --> 04:23:23,410
This ordinance is aimed at picking up people not picked up by federal law.

3082
04:23:23,770 --> 04:23:28,270
And so if you had fewer than that number of employees than this ordinance would apply and

3083
04:23:28,270 --> 04:23:33,970
complain it could bring a complaint against an employer that fewer than that number of employees if they were 40 or older.

3084
04:23:34,990 --> 04:23:35,930
That's my point.

3085
04:23:38,280 --> 04:23:46,660
So if you're 40 or younger in the city of Tucker, you have no course of action to claim that you've been discriminated against.

3086
04:23:48,600 --> 04:23:52,900
This ordinance defines the age as having obtained 40 years or more.

3087
04:23:54,590 --> 04:23:57,290
That's right. You would not be able to make a case based on age discrimination.

3088
04:23:57,290 --> 04:24:01,650
That was just based on following what the federal guidelines are as well.

3089
04:24:02,150 --> 04:24:06,750
I mean, you could add additional protections in there if you want.

3090
04:24:11,360 --> 04:24:14,920
I don't see a definition for a bona fide seniority system.

3091
04:24:15,000 --> 04:24:16,780
We mentioned that earlier, but I don't know what

3092
04:24:21,550 --> 04:24:22,710
definition for that.

3093
04:24:24,210 --> 04:24:25,230
We can add one.

3094
04:24:30,090 --> 04:24:36,480
How does a business know if there are existing policies meet the requirements?

3095
04:24:37,540 --> 04:24:45,800
How does a business owner know if on discrimination policy affirmative action plan bona fide seniority system?

3096
04:24:46,140 --> 04:24:52,580
How does that business know if they're exempted because they're doing with the ordinance?

3097
04:24:52,680 --> 04:24:52,760
We

3098
04:24:55,730 --> 04:25:01,910
allow them to get counsel from city attorney created a model plan.

3099
04:25:03,870 --> 04:25:06,070
We don't let them get advice from the city attorney.

3100
04:25:06,070 --> 04:25:12,990
that much I know, that would be a violation of my big conflict. I couldn't do that.

3101
04:25:14,450 --> 04:25:19,370
I think, you know, it's a good question. I think you can define these terms that have a better idea.

3102
04:25:20,770 --> 04:25:27,130
I think it was pointed out in this discussion earlier that larger employers didn't have a better understanding of what these kind of seniority systems

3103
04:25:27,130 --> 04:25:32,370
and affirmative action plans that are legal are. We're talking about smaller employers here.

3104
04:25:32,370 --> 04:25:37,230
So I think it might be who has to put a definition as best been discussed.

3105
04:25:41,940 --> 04:25:43,380
Just a couple

3106
04:25:47,420 --> 04:25:48,300
places where

3107
04:25:50,380 --> 04:25:51,280
ordinance uses.

3108
04:25:58,510 --> 04:26:00,350
I'm sorry Frank, I can't hear you anymore.

3109
04:26:00,450 --> 04:26:02,050
Sorry, I pushed my microphone away.

3110
04:26:02,350 --> 04:26:02,830
Is that any better?

3111
04:26:03,250 --> 04:26:04,050
Yes, it's great.

3112
04:26:04,150 --> 04:26:04,830
Thank you.

3113
04:26:06,310 --> 04:26:08,810
So as one example, it's in more than one place.

3114
04:26:08,810 --> 04:26:11,990
But at the very beginning of the first paragraph, purpose and intent,

3115
04:26:13,110 --> 04:26:15,330
opportunity of all persons to be free from discrimination,

3116
04:26:15,330 --> 04:26:21,630
including discrimination based on actual or perceived sex, sexual orientation and so on and so on.

3117
04:26:21,630 --> 04:26:29,810
Is perceived intended to qualify, modify every individual descriptor there?

3118
04:26:30,610 --> 04:26:33,690
Or is it intended to modify, only perceived sex?

3119
04:26:35,170 --> 04:26:38,910
I think it could go for all of them, definitely.

3120
04:26:38,990 --> 04:26:40,130
What was your intention?

3121
04:26:40,590 --> 04:26:44,410
I think for all of them, and I think that was, we had that also in the resolution.

3122
04:26:45,930 --> 04:26:51,310
I think this is like the legal, like this is standard legal language around, like those

3123
04:26:51,310 --> 04:26:56,830
protected classes, but it applies to all of them because it's about national origin.

3124
04:26:57,070 --> 04:27:02,610
I know I saw it in the EU. The perceived religion, perceived marital status, perceived veteran

3125
04:27:02,610 --> 04:27:05,450
or military status, that's what that means.

3126
04:27:18,520 --> 04:27:20,440
I have more questions around that, but I'll have to

3127
04:27:20,440 --> 04:27:25,180
I'll have to frame them up. I think there's lots of room for getting

3128
04:27:27,450 --> 04:27:28,270
around the intent

3129
04:27:28,270 --> 04:27:35,350
of the act based on whether a person actually is of a certain religion or is of a certain

3130
04:27:35,350 --> 04:27:43,390
race. Does the claimant have to actually be that or are we saying the claimant can claim

3131
04:27:44,210 --> 04:27:50,910
that the respondent perceived them as that whether they were or not? So you have a person

3132
04:27:50,910 --> 04:27:57,710
who's not Catholic, but they think the employer perceived them as Catholic and discriminated

3133
04:27:57,710 --> 04:28:00,370
him against him on that basis. Is that what we mean to say?

3134
04:28:05,800 --> 04:28:07,020
Does any of this, is any

3135
04:28:07,020 --> 04:28:15,740
of this ordinance intended to apply to vendors, contractors, suppliers of business or property

3136
04:28:15,740 --> 04:28:20,080
owner? No, employees. Ted and I, we discussed that.

3137
04:28:25,600 --> 04:28:25,600
We

3138
04:28:25,600 --> 04:28:35,990
accommodation, a contractor who's working the festival or serving back up to somebody who's an exhibitor there.

3139
04:28:42,700 --> 04:28:47,180
So I met like a place of public accommodation, whether that includes their agents.

3140
04:28:47,820 --> 04:28:49,240
Yeah, I'm trying to

3141
04:28:53,080 --> 04:28:58,560
consider legitimate cases but I'm also trying to consider people who want to misuse this ordinance.

3142
04:28:59,320 --> 04:29:05,680
And so I'm thinking of all the evil things that I've seen people do and attempt to do.

3143
04:29:06,240 --> 04:29:11,320
I mean, I think the same way that employer includes agents of the employer, arguably

3144
04:29:11,320 --> 04:29:16,440
if you're a place of public accommodation, and you have employees that are engaging

3145
04:29:16,440 --> 04:29:22,300
in discriminatory behavior that law would typically hold you responsible for that, so I think

3146
04:29:22,300 --> 04:29:26,380
that that would not prohibit someone from bringing a complaint out of the ordinance.

3147
04:29:27,000 --> 04:29:31,760
Were you thinking more along the lines like you've got a vendor, you're hosting the festival

3148
04:29:31,760 --> 04:29:34,060
and you have a vendor there, were you thinking more along that line?

3149
04:29:34,060 --> 04:29:37,720
Well, yeah, but there's also all kinds of contractors in businesses.

3150
04:29:38,180 --> 04:29:42,660
You know, somebody sits in this business doing graphic design,

3151
04:29:43,900 --> 04:29:45,720
but they're a contractor to that business.

3152
04:29:45,740 --> 04:29:46,940
They're not employed by them.

3153
04:29:47,100 --> 04:29:51,760
Are we trying to capture all of that or if we're not,

3154
04:29:52,000 --> 04:29:55,980
is there the potential that it would be an unintended consequence?

3155
04:29:57,900 --> 04:29:59,840
I would submit that I...

3156
04:30:00,180 --> 04:30:23,480
That would be captured under the agency laws of Georgia, whereas the general contractor, so to speak, would control the time method a manner of a subcontractor, so to speak, such that it would blow back on the contractor where they're discriminatory practices. That's my leave of opinion, not as a council.

3157
04:30:28,660 --> 04:30:32,600
I'll use an example, but there's lots of possibilities.

3158
04:30:32,600 --> 04:30:44,860
I know of a black-owned business and Tucker who maintains an internship program that's specifically aimed at young black college students.

3159
04:30:47,530 --> 04:30:55,850
Could that be continued under this ordinance or would someone have a claim to say I'm not black and I can't even get considered?

3160
04:30:55,850 --> 04:30:56,610
I

3161
04:30:59,590 --> 04:31:00,950
think that's potential grounds for complaint.

3162
04:31:01,870 --> 04:31:06,370
The way I read the ordinance, it applies to discrimination based on race.

3163
04:31:06,750 --> 04:31:08,950
It does not specify which race.

3164
04:31:10,490 --> 04:31:18,750
Would that be, so we know that that happens all the time in the real world, maybe under companies

3165
04:31:18,750 --> 04:31:26,810
that also, or this isn't even on the bookshelf, but federal law, so how does that happen?

3166
04:31:27,510 --> 04:31:29,650
I'm just curious, I think it's a good point, right?

3167
04:31:30,630 --> 04:31:38,830
So a larger company covered under federal law sometimes does have internships for certain

3168
04:31:38,830 --> 04:31:39,130
people.

3169
04:31:40,370 --> 04:31:43,370
So why would that be different than this?

3170
04:31:44,630 --> 04:31:48,890
Just for an educational, and I'm not putting you on the spot, we could come back to it.

3171
04:31:49,570 --> 04:31:50,750
We could come back to it.

3172
04:31:51,950 --> 04:31:57,510
Yes, in a way, I can imagine that that would meet muster is if you had some kind of bonaflata

3173
04:31:57,510 --> 04:32:03,430
from revaction plan, otherwise race discrimination is race discrimination regardless of the color

3174
04:32:03,430 --> 04:32:05,010
of the person who is discriminated against.

3175
04:32:05,350 --> 04:32:07,310
It is an internship non-employment.

3176
04:32:08,510 --> 04:32:14,150
So, if the internship has any kind of property interest, which even a stipend or, you know,

3177
04:32:14,790 --> 04:32:19,550
use of a car, food, you know, I think the question I have is where that butts up against like

3178
04:32:19,550 --> 04:32:28,390
we were talking about that there are exceptions for organizations that have specific, like

3179
04:32:28,390 --> 04:32:33,550
it's okay to lay out particular requirements, right, so it's okay to say you're only serving

3180
04:32:33,550 --> 04:32:39,170
seniors, like this doesn't preclude that, so I do wonder where those two things, um,

3181
04:32:41,580 --> 04:32:50,300
butt up, and I still think that it would be if they may have an internship like that, but

3182
04:32:50,300 --> 04:32:54,940
But if someone who doesn't fall in, it isn't black applies and they give it, they might

3183
04:32:54,940 --> 04:32:55,580
give it to them, right?

3184
04:32:55,960 --> 04:33:00,300
So it really comes down to, what is your actual practice, and then what's the behavior

3185
04:33:00,900 --> 04:33:04,480
in denying somebody's service, so denying them employment, denying them housing.

3186
04:33:05,020 --> 04:33:08,640
Are you doing it from that perspective and saying,

3187
04:33:12,350 --> 04:33:13,870
I think it's part of the whole mediation

3188
04:33:13,870 --> 04:33:19,130
and hearing process, is to figure, you know, that out more fully.

3189
04:33:19,790 --> 04:33:24,970
Well, it's the basis of a complaint, and then you do get into the process and the

3190
04:33:24,970 --> 04:33:29,330
complaint bears the burden by the ponderance to make their case.

3191
04:33:30,290 --> 04:33:34,870
I mean, I don't see any of the exceptions that address race.

3192
04:33:35,150 --> 04:33:36,410
So the question was race.

3193
04:33:36,810 --> 04:33:41,930
It talks about single sex designated areas, but race discrimination is race discrimination.

3194
04:33:41,930 --> 04:33:49,290
So whether it's a hearing officer or a judge or whatever the process is got to be bound by law

3195
04:33:49,290 --> 04:33:51,650
I mean we have to have told that

3196
04:33:52,350 --> 04:33:56,710
First and here's the basis on which you make these decisions. They can't just decide well

3197
04:33:56,710 --> 04:33:59,670
They had good intentions here, or they're doing a good thing

3198
04:34:00,310 --> 04:34:01,190
we have

3199
04:34:02,390 --> 04:34:03,510
pretty sizable

3200
04:34:04,250 --> 04:34:10,750
Organization in town that serves the disabled community and hires a lot of disabled people

3201
04:34:11,930 --> 04:34:20,670
I hate to think that they would face claims from able people saying, hey I applied for a job.

3202
04:34:21,790 --> 04:34:26,070
They told me we only, anyway, that there's lots of permutations of that.

3203
04:34:27,010 --> 04:34:31,050
Who be women, who be any of the classes that we're talking about.

3204
04:34:31,850 --> 04:34:32,890
We'll check on that.

3205
04:34:33,130 --> 04:34:40,930
I do have to say, however, I think that from the philanthropic perspective and the nonprofit major organizations,

3206
04:34:40,930 --> 04:34:44,870
organizations, they have their own missions and values, and

3207
04:34:45,510 --> 04:34:49,270
for to share your responsibilities and almost all of that is spelled out.

3208
04:34:49,650 --> 04:34:54,890
Under that, the way they work is business, entities, and

3209
04:34:54,890 --> 04:34:56,250
non-profit scenario.

3210
04:34:56,650 --> 04:35:02,010
And the people who donate the money is also regulated and

3211
04:35:02,010 --> 04:35:05,130
directed sometimes by that philanthropist.

3212
04:35:05,230 --> 04:35:07,550
So I think we just have to kind of look into all of that.

3213
04:35:07,650 --> 04:35:09,130
It's a good scenario to talk through.

3214
04:35:09,130 --> 04:35:17,790
Wow, can it, can a philanthropist give money to an organization and instruct them to use it in a discriminatory way?

3215
04:35:24,200 --> 04:35:29,000
Well, I mean, and again, if the organization is big enough, it's not our problem.

3216
04:35:29,800 --> 04:35:33,040
Our hearing officers are going to tell them, go see the state, go see the federal government.

3217
04:35:33,700 --> 04:35:35,600
If it's small enough,

3218
04:35:37,660 --> 04:35:42,400
our hearing officers got to hear it and got to decide on whatever our ordinance says.

3219
04:35:42,400 --> 04:35:45,120
Yeah, you can't do that. I'm in Tucker.

3220
04:35:48,790 --> 04:35:52,330
So an establishment, I guess what we're

3221
04:35:52,330 --> 04:35:59,870
calling a place of public accommodation, a bar, a salon, some place like that, can

3222
04:35:59,870 --> 04:36:03,050
they market themselves as aimed at,

3223
04:36:05,860 --> 04:36:07,580
I'm going to say, protected class, although I

3224
04:36:07,580 --> 04:36:12,420
think we're trying to not say protected class, that they serve or they desire to

3225
04:36:12,420 --> 04:36:18,540
are particular race, or gender, or age, or whatever, is that okay?

3226
04:36:20,100 --> 04:36:21,980
Kind of goes to the question I asked earlier.

3227
04:36:25,320 --> 04:36:31,160
If they make it clear that they exist for some group that ain't me, and they discriminate

3228
04:36:31,160 --> 04:36:35,540
against me, I think they can market themselves.

3229
04:36:37,720 --> 04:36:46,480
Once they actually exercise discrimination, I think the ordinance will grant the discriminating

3230
04:36:46,480 --> 04:36:48,900
individual a billy to submit a complaint.

3231
04:36:51,530 --> 04:36:53,370
The marketing might be part of their case

3232
04:36:53,370 --> 04:36:53,890
they try to make.

3233
04:36:57,920 --> 04:37:03,720
Cold weather shelter operated by a non-religious organization. Be required

3234
04:37:03,720 --> 04:37:11,680
to for example allow men in the women's side or all the various permutations of

3235
04:37:11,680 --> 04:37:13,680
that if

3236
04:37:15,830 --> 04:37:23,260
they're not a religious organization is defined here they fall under they

3237
04:37:23,260 --> 04:37:26,660
can't discriminate. I think that probably falls under number ten.

3238
04:37:29,880 --> 04:37:30,740
Subtions? Yes

3239
04:37:30,740 --> 04:37:31,000
sir.

3240
04:37:37,300 --> 04:37:40,660
We talked about this with in particular do a women's shelter.

3241
04:37:54,070 --> 04:37:54,750
That's what

3242
04:37:54,750 --> 04:38:04,290
be required or could they pay for accommodations for certain groups somewhere else? I can't stay

3243
04:38:04,290 --> 04:38:06,230
here but we'll pay for you to stay over there.

3244
04:38:08,580 --> 04:38:09,220
Yep I think so.

3245
04:38:17,020 --> 04:38:18,760
Break up a quick question before

3246
04:38:18,760 --> 04:38:27,060
we move away from this. Sorry go ahead. Is there a way that we can just add into a nice little bundle of

3247
04:38:27,060 --> 04:38:33,380
what we consider discrimination instead of trying to find every loophole that anybody

3248
04:38:33,380 --> 04:38:36,940
could ever find anywhere because we could do this for hours. I mean, I could do this

3249
04:38:36,940 --> 04:38:42,360
for hours. We could find all kinds of things. But would it be easier just to write like this

3250
04:38:42,360 --> 04:38:49,460
is what this ordinance covers in discrimination? So that way, if somebody comes to the

3251
04:38:49,460 --> 04:38:53,980
city and says, I think I've been discriminated against and then the person can look and say,

3252
04:38:54,400 --> 04:39:01,780
Falls within this category. Yeah, you know, I think you are and if it falls with out of that say it's outside of that category, so no

3253
04:39:03,180 --> 04:39:03,580
Well

3254
04:39:04,660 --> 04:39:09,280
You'll spend with mom pretty any that that's how I read section 30-303

3255
04:39:10,240 --> 04:39:12,140
I think that's what that's trying to do

3256
04:39:15,480 --> 04:39:20,600
I don't have that on my phone, so it's very small. Can you read that to us please?

3257
04:39:22,220 --> 04:39:23,400
It's a lengthy paragraph

3258
04:39:25,580 --> 04:39:32,160
It's a section that declares these things to be civil rights and it says if you're actually

3259
04:39:32,160 --> 04:39:38,220
or perceived to be in one of all these categories that you have the right to hold employment

3260
04:39:38,710 --> 04:39:42,060
and full enjoyment of public accommodations, property transactions.

3261
04:39:43,200 --> 04:39:48,340
The last one is a bit of an oddity to me but the right to participate as a witness,

3262
04:39:48,660 --> 04:39:53,900
testify and exercise any right granted here without suffering coercion or retaliation.

3263
04:39:53,900 --> 04:39:54,620
So

3264
04:40:00,820 --> 04:40:03,840
does that limit the other things that you were questioning,

3265
04:40:05,980 --> 04:40:06,880
Mr. Mayor?

3266
04:40:09,140 --> 04:40:11,040
Well, I mean, that's the problem, right?

3267
04:40:11,100 --> 04:40:12,460
We'd love for it to all be simple.

3268
04:40:12,840 --> 04:40:17,040
We'd love for it to just say, everybody behave, do the right thing.

3269
04:40:17,640 --> 04:40:20,040
And if you're not, we're going to punt you.

3270
04:40:21,540 --> 04:40:23,180
I think we

3271
04:40:25,200 --> 04:40:29,340
hope society would do that, you know, in an informal way.

3272
04:40:29,480 --> 04:40:31,940
Then we would all gather around and say, we're not putting up with that.

3273
04:40:31,940 --> 04:40:38,820
But we're not going to patronize your business, we're not going to allow that to go on in

3274
04:40:38,820 --> 04:40:39,240
our midst.

3275
04:40:39,580 --> 04:40:43,560
We're going to turn out in protest, we're going to turn our backs on you.

3276
04:40:43,760 --> 04:40:49,740
But this is law, and when somebody has a claim and wants to avail themselves of law,

3277
04:40:50,000 --> 04:40:55,220
the law needs to be clear and specific and cover all these eventualities, that's what makes

3278
04:40:55,220 --> 04:40:55,600
it hard.

3279
04:40:55,600 --> 04:40:56,620
So,

3280
04:41:00,270 --> 04:41:06,230
our, this ordinance excludes government organizations, which means it excludes the public

3281
04:41:06,230 --> 04:41:06,730
schools.

3282
04:41:06,730 --> 04:41:07,270
Is that right?

3283
04:41:09,910 --> 04:41:12,210
Noticab school system, no public schools.

3284
04:41:12,750 --> 04:41:14,070
What about private schools?

3285
04:41:15,270 --> 04:41:16,250
It covers private schools?

3286
04:41:19,240 --> 04:41:19,820
Potentially.

3287
04:41:25,680 --> 04:41:28,260
Unreligious private schools will be subject to all these

3288
04:41:31,140 --> 04:41:33,040
requirements, which will actually

3289
04:41:33,040 --> 04:41:33,580
better work.

3290
04:41:34,100 --> 04:41:38,180
As would non-religious daycare.

3291
04:41:44,840 --> 04:41:51,880
Yes, except that with respect to the non religious private schools, they're probably all going to be large enough to fall

3292
04:41:51,880 --> 04:42:00,380
under the ambit of federal and to discrimination law. Small daycare might not be large enough, but it would be because not religious, yes, it will be.

3293
04:42:00,380 --> 04:42:03,160
When we had to start at private schools in

3294
04:42:03,820 --> 04:42:06,640
smoke rise, and elsewhere, we have them right now.

3295
04:42:07,620 --> 04:42:11,060
I think most of the car ones are religious affiliated

3296
04:42:11,060 --> 04:42:13,320
although I'm sure they would want to be sure

3297
04:42:13,320 --> 04:42:15,120
they were not caught up in this.

3298
04:42:15,800 --> 04:42:19,420
But we had just lately, we went out of our way

3299
04:42:19,420 --> 04:42:25,120
to change our code to allow a non-religious daycare to

3300
04:42:25,120 --> 04:42:28,080
to locate in a church,

3301
04:42:30,240 --> 04:42:33,460
sort of, you know, be the daycare for that church, although there

3302
04:42:33,460 --> 04:42:38,100
is separate entity, and it was a big hubbub. We had to change our code to enable it and

3303
04:42:38,100 --> 04:42:47,000
allow it, and we defined sizes and everything else, but that daycare is a private, non-religious

3304
04:42:48,660 --> 04:42:54,880
business, and would be subject to all of this. So they could be one of the ones that we

3305
04:42:54,880 --> 04:42:58,800
read about in the paper who's teaching or not teaching certain things in certain ways

3306
04:42:58,800 --> 04:43:07,260
or inviting certain curricula, all those kinds of things, that little in-person operation

3307
04:43:09,500 --> 04:43:10,430
comes under all this.

3308
04:43:17,280 --> 04:43:20,880
Believe it or not, I'm near the end. What would this law have

3309
04:43:20,880 --> 04:43:26,720
an effect on gender-specific sports leagues in Tucker's Parks and Rec Department and what

3310
04:43:26,720 --> 04:43:35,680
about leagues we lease to like Tysa and TFL. So are we going to face conversations about

3311
04:43:37,790 --> 04:43:44,670
biological males participating on girls teams or girls leagues either that we run or that

3312
04:43:47,230 --> 04:43:48,330
affiliates?

3313
04:43:56,220 --> 04:43:58,620
Well the say itself is exempt except that

3314
04:43:58,620 --> 04:44:01,740
it professes not to exercise type of discrimination.

3315
04:44:04,800 --> 04:44:07,140
This would have to fall under, you know,

3316
04:44:07,140 --> 04:44:09,180
number two under section three of three,

3317
04:44:09,540 --> 04:44:11,800
relating to full enjoyment of facilities

3318
04:44:11,800 --> 04:44:12,940
or public accommodations.

3319
04:44:14,340 --> 04:44:18,370
So, I mean, if a private league,

3320
04:44:20,530 --> 04:44:23,430
arguably exercised

3321
04:44:24,530 --> 04:44:25,610
gender discrimination,

3322
04:44:26,250 --> 04:44:27,830
it would be basis of a complaint.

3323
04:44:40,380 --> 04:44:42,800
While quit there, I mean, I think it's clear

3324
04:44:43,200 --> 04:44:46,920
there's a lot of detail that is in here

3325
04:44:46,920 --> 04:44:52,320
that may or may not be our intention or intention

3326
04:44:52,760 --> 04:44:59,100
Mitty's intention or what I have yet my point has been just to point out as many of those areas as I could

3327
04:45:00,000 --> 04:45:21,450
Get from a first reading of the current version. So that's what work sessions for. I think the committee probably has some more work to do. And as much as we appreciate the work that's been done, there's more to do invite you to keep at it. Try to address all these things. Well,

3328
04:45:25,810 --> 04:45:35,150
we appreciate that. Appreciate the discussion. I don't think we'll be able to address every single item that anybody ever comes up with because I'm not sure if every law does.

3329
04:45:35,150 --> 04:45:39,750
but we'll look into some of those there and we'll coordinate Ted if you don't mind back

3330
04:45:39,750 --> 04:45:41,570
with you as we do that work.

3331
04:45:42,050 --> 04:45:49,490
We'll say for anybody who's still online or anybody else, it's not that this was drafted

3332
04:45:49,490 --> 04:45:55,930
without looking at others, right, so other state laws, so those questions are everywhere

3333
04:45:55,930 --> 04:45:56,850
not just in Tucker.

3334
04:45:57,050 --> 04:45:58,450
I'm not saying that they're right or wrong.

3335
04:45:58,870 --> 04:46:00,650
I just want the public to understand.

3336
04:46:00,650 --> 04:46:10,730
And this wasn't a fresh, it's never been looked at by others' opportunity or intention.

3337
04:46:11,590 --> 04:46:17,790
We looked at other laws as well, and I'm sure those discussions have been had so we

3338
04:46:17,790 --> 04:46:19,290
can follow up with those folks too.

3339
04:46:19,670 --> 04:46:24,950
I mean, that's a big part of what's behind all these questions is their experience and

3340
04:46:24,950 --> 04:46:25,510
track record.

3341
04:46:25,510 --> 04:46:30,690
have people filed claims like the ones we've talked about, if they've been successful, do

3342
04:46:30,690 --> 04:46:41,160
they not exist? Have cities been sued over an ordinance that led to an outcome that was

3343
04:46:41,160 --> 04:46:49,760
unintended and the ordinance winds up in court and we wind up right and over. I can't overstate it.

3344
04:46:49,860 --> 04:46:57,610
I do think it's our duty to examine these kinds of things. They're not frivolous and made

3345
04:46:57,610 --> 04:47:03,210
up never going to happen kind of things. These are really reading about them in the paper regularly.

3346
04:47:05,080 --> 04:47:09,080
Maybe a different size company, maybe a different state, maybe a federal law versus something

3347
04:47:09,080 --> 04:47:10,900
local, but I

3348
04:47:13,680 --> 04:47:19,780
can't say it enough. We're creating law. We're affecting livelihoods. We are talking about

3349
04:47:19,780 --> 04:47:26,880
putting somebody out of business, either through our own ordinance or through the external ramifications.

3350
04:47:27,680 --> 04:47:29,460
And I think we have to take it really seriously.

3351
04:47:30,240 --> 04:47:32,880
That's why I keep saying, I get it.

3352
04:47:33,040 --> 04:47:33,900
I get the intent.

3353
04:47:34,480 --> 04:47:38,440
And I wish the whole world could just come together, you know, and be as one.

3354
04:47:40,080 --> 04:47:43,960
But we're saying in effect, we've given up on the world.

3355
04:47:44,080 --> 04:47:45,660
We don't trust the world to do that.

3356
04:47:46,000 --> 04:47:47,560
We don't trust our community to do that.

3357
04:47:47,900 --> 04:47:53,080
And so we're going to pass a law with teeth to punish people and insist on corrective action.

3358
04:47:53,580 --> 04:47:54,760
That's what it ends up being.

3359
04:47:54,760 --> 04:47:59,680
And that's what happens in a court or a hearing officer or in the appeals process, all

3360
04:47:59,680 --> 04:48:00,200
those things.

3361
04:48:00,520 --> 04:48:03,620
So, maybe I'm the only one, but I think it matters a lot.

3362
04:48:07,930 --> 04:48:08,270
Oh, quit.

3363
04:48:08,850 --> 04:48:10,110
I don't think they've given up on the world.

3364
04:48:10,110 --> 04:48:10,650
Close your comments.

3365
04:48:11,390 --> 04:48:11,850
At all.

3366
04:48:12,410 --> 04:48:15,970
And we have other ordinances that might make us look like we've given up on the world as well,

3367
04:48:16,110 --> 04:48:17,730
but we haven't.

3368
04:48:18,330 --> 04:48:20,730
So, I appreciate everybody's time this evening.

3369
04:48:20,730 --> 04:48:23,410
I appreciate the committee that was here.

3370
04:48:23,950 --> 04:48:26,630
I appreciate everybody who's left in the room.

3371
04:48:27,450 --> 04:48:32,090
And of course, yes, we've got a little bit more work to do on this as well, and I appreciate

3372
04:48:32,090 --> 04:48:32,790
what you brought up.

3373
04:48:32,790 --> 04:48:33,090
I'm sorry.

3374
04:48:33,250 --> 04:48:33,970
I said I was going to quit.

3375
04:48:34,130 --> 04:48:34,450
One more thing.

3376
04:48:34,910 --> 04:48:37,930
I'm not just asking questions for the sake of throwing up roadblocks.

3377
04:48:39,610 --> 04:48:45,470
There will be a point when I'll bring a whole list of refinements, amendments, suggestions

3378
04:48:45,470 --> 04:48:46,810
for things to do instead.

3379
04:48:47,570 --> 04:48:52,030
Then I just to discuss Y'all's proposal and that's what I've tried to do.

3380
04:48:52,030 --> 04:48:56,230
And then I would ask, could I get a copy of your questions, in case my notes weren't that great?

3381
04:48:57,390 --> 04:49:03,810
Yeah, but happily we recorded the whole thing too, because I intended to take a lot of notes and I also didn't do that.

3382
04:49:04,010 --> 04:49:04,430
Thank you.

3383
04:49:06,700 --> 04:49:09,140
Any final words up there? I'm looking at you guys online.

3384
04:49:12,540 --> 04:49:14,440
With that objection, I'm going to adjourn us.

3385
04:49:18,220 --> 04:49:18,600
Thank you all.