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Thank you, Brad.

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For those who are not in the room, Brad
just took the clock off the wall because

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time does not exist here today on
Tuesday, August 25th, 2026.

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Welcome to city council work session. I
see council member Cassie, council

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member Jefferson, council member Agabi,
lovely to see your faces virtually. I

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see council member Sullivan, mayor Posan
von Holtz, council member Schwarzout,

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council member Randon, we have our city
administrator Paul Simmons, myself

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serving as mayor, Lena Daw, we have our
city attorney, Karen Katrick, we have

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Melody, we have Lance, and we have Chief
Helens, and we have a special guest,

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which ties us into number three. Oh, we
also have Sharon and Brown.

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That's our roll call item number three.
Washington City's Insurance Authority

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Training Council best practices. Karen
Kpatrick, who do we have with us

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tonight? I'm happy to introduce Ann
Bennett who's with us tonight um from

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WCIA and to provide us some great
training. Um, some of you have attended

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similar training in the past, but um, I
believe you'll be giving us some

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background on WCIA
um, as well as uh, potential um, areas

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of li liability exposure for council
members um, and best practices to avoid

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those. So, um, take it away.
>> Well, thank you very much uh, for having

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me. Uh, as Karen mentioned, I'm Anne
Bennett. I'm the executive director of

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WCIA. I just passed 30 years with WCIA.
So, yeah, in July. So, I can't believe

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it. I can't believe it went by that
fast. So, uh this training I always

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appreciate it when it's interactive. So,
please feel free to ask questions. Um

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and in fact, the last one I did, um I
had council members kind of ch not I I

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don't challenging is strong, but just
saying, well, what what about this, what

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about that? Those are great trainings.
So feel free um happy to answer and

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sometimes I may defer um to Karen uh if
it's an issue that I'm going to say I'm

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going to defer to your city attorney on
that but um I am happy to report that uh

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Tomwater has been a member of WCIA since
1985.

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So uh we are a municipal risk sharing
pool. So basically we were created in

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1981 and it was when cities could not
get insurance and so they nine cities

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pulled together money and created us.
We're actually a public entity. Um we're

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overseen by um the state risk managers
office and we act like insurance but

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we're not an insurance company. Um, we
have over now we're over 166 members,

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$222 million in assets, and that is all
public funds. We're actually audited by

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the state auditor's office. Um, what are
the advantages for being in WCIA? It is

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a member-run organization.
Every single member has a delegate and a

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vote to our full board. Karen is the
delegate for Tomwater. And um it all of

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the decisions on what we do, how we do
it is driven by the membership. So we

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not only provide that kind of insurance
like coverage, but we really our mission

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is to assist members in loss prevention.
Uh, Tumb Water has a fantastic loss

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record and um, I always kind of check
when I come out and you guys have done

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very very well um, in controlling losses
and you do use a lot of our programs.

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You have stability in rates. Um, unlike
your insurance carrier where you submit

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an application, you're like, "Oh, I
wonder why my rate went up." And they

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say, "Oh, well, cost clients." Ours is
completely transparent. It's done by an

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outside actuary who looks at your losses
and it's got basically an overall what

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do we need in terms of covering costs.
We're a nonprofit and then it's modified

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by um your losses and then from that we
use worker hours as an exposure. So it's

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how many workers do you have and that's
um the exposure base that's used. The

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really good news is that all of the
coverage decisions, they're made by me

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and if you don't like my coverage
decision, you can go to our board um and

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appeal that. So again, unlike insurance
where you're, you know, sending it off

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and wondering what happened, my mission
is to find coverage rather than um look

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for reasons to deny you coverage. So,
every single member um has an assigned

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risk management rep and we come out and
do all kinds of best practices, reviews,

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um help with any questions that you guys
have and we do extensive training

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throughout. From the insurance
standpoint, um we ensure your auto

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liability, your employment liability,
your law enforcement liability, as well

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as your general liability. And that's
the, you know, sidewalks, um, sewer

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backups, water main bras, things like
that. So, um, you have 20 million per

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occurrence and we ensure the first 5
million per occurrence. So, we have

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claims control the entire way. We use
reinsurance up above that, and we have

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control of the claims, that whole layer,
which is very unusual. Most um, don't

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have that type of, but we're uh, we work
with our reinsurance partners and they

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give us that. You also have additional
um insurance coverage through us.

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Property auto, boiler machinery, uh
crime fidelity and cyber and pollution.

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We also do that and we buy that from the
internet.

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So
kind of want to give you a little bit of

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update as to why it is so important uh
that you control liability at your level

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as well as throughout the city. So in
the traditional insurance market, it's

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cyclical. There's hard markets and soft
markets. And it used to always go like

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this um year-over-year. Oh, it's a hard
market, you know, which means it's hard

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to get coverage. The pricing's high or
it's a soft market. Things got cheaper.

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And that was usually driven by losses.
So, Hurricane Sandy happened, hard

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market, then thing, you know, they start
making profit and then they can give

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relief and it's a soft market. We have
had a prolonged what's called a

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prolonged hard market and public
entities are specifically problematic um

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to ensure. So for example our rates for
reinsurance um for the last 10 years

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went up 700%.
700. Now um WCIA's overall liability

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increase for 2026 and now for 2027 is
3%. And that's the value of pooling is

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that you're not feeling those shocks
that others who are individually

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insuring can get. I will say that we are
paying more money for less coverage. We

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used to self-insure the first four
million. Now we have been pushed up to 5

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million and they'd like to push us. When
I say they, I'm talking our reinsurers.

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They'd like us to take on more. So, um,
property, the first party property

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market is crazy soft. It's cheap. And so
what we've been doing during this um

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cycle is buying more earthquake
coverage, more flood coverage. So we're

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using the cheaper prices to increase the
member's coverage.

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So why is it important? Here's some
headlines. And I will tell you these are

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actually outdated. Um there's been even
higher headlines on these dollar

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amounts. And these used to be shocking,
but I can tell you that they've only

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gone up from there. Uh recently there
was a $30 million verdict against the

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city of Seattle on the CHOP uh case. I
think you guys remember there is been

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cases against the state in the hundreds
of millions. Uh Cleellum actually that

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22 million on breaching a development
agreement. Um they're actually currently

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going through bankruptcy.
>> Yeah. At least didn't they? They're

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going bankrupt.
>> Yeah, they're going through bankruptcy

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on that. Um so what's going on here and
why is this happening? Um this is a

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nationwide issue. Um there's a
proliferation of what's called um

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nuclear verdicts and that is any verdict
over $10 million. And what's happening

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is you know when you look at the states
it was used to be a west coast problem.

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It's moving across the nation. Per
capita Washington is number three. And I

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can tell you that Florida and Georgia
have undergone massive tort reform. And

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I know with you guys down here, you're
very aware their tort reform discussions

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going on. And we are actively involved.
We're working with AWC, the Association

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of Counties. I'm talking to
representatives about, you know, this is

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a problem for public entities and we
need to come up with real solutions. And

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so we're going to work on that um quite
a bit this session. We've had some I I

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would say productive discussions. Um the
state is 1 billion with a B in debt in

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their self- insurance fund um because of
losses. So uh it is bad out there and

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I'm glad that we're finally having some
conversations about.

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So the important thing is how can you as
council members avoid um creating

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liability for your organization? And
what I'll tell you is here's some good

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news. As a legislator, you receive an
absolute immunity while you are

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undertaking legislative actions. So when
you're adopting budgets, ordinances,

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um, resolutions, when you're a body as a
whole, you as an individual have

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absolute immunity. Now, we're going to
in the future kind of talk about a few

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areas where you can get sued
individually for your actions, but in

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general, when you're legislating, you
have an absolute immunity. When I first

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started at WCI, this didn't exist, and I
used to get lawsuits all the time that

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named council members um individually,
and then a case came down and said, "No,

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no, they're legislating. They should
have absolute immunity." So, um, but

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again, remember it's not acting as an
individual outside the council as a

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whole when you're legislating.
>> I just have a question on that, right?

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Because I'm no longer on council. Now
I'm serving as mayor in the executive,

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right? And I just got to go back to our
most recent example. And then when

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documentation was changed and my name
was put on it to be sued about the Davis

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sneaker Gary Oak Tree. So council
wouldn't couldn't get sued, but the

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mayor got sued. But if it was if the
council had made a decision, then they

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couldn't have gotten sued
>> individually.

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» Individually. But
>> I think I think the litigation you're

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referring to, you actually were sued in
your official,

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right?
>> Um but but Right. And that's a good but

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it's a good that while you're protected
as an individual that doesn't mean if

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the council took a you know knowingly
took some sort of illegal action the

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entity the city could
make sense.

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So here's an area uh where Tom has done
a a great thing which we advocate for is

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the use of hearing examiners. Um that
actually means you have less issues with

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the appearance of fairness doctrine
which is the doctrine that says you must

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be fair and impartial when hearing land
use appeals. So that you know it has

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been problematic in the past when
councils have undertaken that. And

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that's because you want to talk to your
constituents, you want to get opinions,

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and then that means um it's problematic
for you to sit as a judge being fair and

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impartial. So, it also eliminates all
those arbitrary and capriccious um

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allegations against your decisions as a
council. So, um having a a hearing

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examiner is a big big that doesn't mean
that as a council you can't still create

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liability for the city. And so I'm going
to talk about two cases. Um the first

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one, Westmark versus Berian, was one of
ours. Uh the city of Birian incorporated

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um back in 1993.
And part of the reason they incorporated

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is they didn't like the development that
was going on under King County and

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mostly they wanted more single family
homes, less apartments. And this is a

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long time and the land use laws have
completely changed since this decision.

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So it's, you know, this really a lot of
this delay couldn't happen. But the the

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this whole case was delayed, delayed,
delayed, delayed on both sides. And what

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happened is during that period where
this project was being reviewed, the

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council was constantly saying, "How can
we stop this development? We don't like

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apartments. This is why we incorporate.
We don't want this. We don't like this."

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And so as this case progressed, at one
point there was a mediation and there

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was a settlement and WCIA agreed to pay
$200,000 and the city council was going

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to approve this um development with, you
know, certain caveats.

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So what happened is that we went
forward, settlement agreement signed,

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everything's good to go. And then as the
development started to move forward, the

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council said, "Well, you know what? We
didn't approve that in open session, so

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we can take it back." And they did. And
so they said, "We're not going to follow

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through. It wasn't approved in open
session. It's illegal. Therefore, uh,

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sorry, we're not going to continue with
this.

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So, then they sued for, you know, breach
of contract, trying to enforce it. Well,

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actually, the council was right. There
was no contract because it wasn't an

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open session. So, then it was reopened
and off to the races again. So, this

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case ended up going to trial. And when
it went to trial, the case that was

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presented, while we were saying, well,
you know, they there were environmental

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impacts, they didn't do their part, they
didn't, you know, uphold this or that

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part of their end of the bargain. The
entire time the jury heard that the

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council didn't want it, here's what the
council said. Here's what And so that

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jury, and this is I mean in 2008,
awarded $10 million

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Yeah. And so that was a bit shocking.
[laughter]

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That was very shocking. So what happens
when you get a verdict for $10 million?

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You think I'm going to appeal it. I'm an
appeal. That that's outrageous. Now, not

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so much. But then this is outrageous.
The court of appeals excoriated the city

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and said there was a torchious
interference. They interfered with this

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business. It was intentional. They knew
what they were doing and this developer

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was wrong. And so they upheld the
verdict and that's when we said we need

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to start training on this because verts
matter and they will be used against

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you. And I so
so as Ann's saying this, I'm just

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thinking
as an elected and on council, you serve

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as a delegate and a trustee, right? On
certain issues, you are representing a

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00:15:47,839 --> 00:15:52,880
voice and you're voting that way and
other way otherwise you're they're

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entrusting you to vote for the
betterment of Tom Water, right? And so

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when you're out and people are asking
you and you are giving your personal

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00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:04,240
opinion, well, I don't like that. I
don't want that in Tom Water. this is

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why I'm concerned about that, right?
Because you have your personal opinion,

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00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:14,320
but when you're serving on council,
everyone's paying attention, right? So,

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there's been some examples. I think you
can all think of some current examples

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where you might like it or not like it
and how you've been framing that in the

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community can put us at liability.
And I think to add to that, you know, we

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have very vocal communities that have
strong opinions

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at the end of the day, help me out if
I'm wrong here, you know, council's job

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00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:43,199
isn't to like or not like a particular
development. It's to determine does this

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00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:49,279
development meet the requirements of
what's allowed in this space. And so we

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just have to and the public usually
doesn't understand that. They think that

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council has a lot more control than you
have. So there's a there's always a

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communication and educational exercise
that we need to do, but just being aware

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of that we can, you know, your role
isn't to like or not like, it's to

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approve or not.
>> I mean, I go back to council member

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Kathy, right, to model how she puts
everything back to our strategic goals

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and priorities, the elements in the
comprehensive plan. Everything that Joan

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talks about and hears about, she frames
it back to what we are unified in doing

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it, right? So whether she likes
something or not, Joan is always framing

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it back to the urban forestry plan.
That's why she's been so advocate like

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so passionate about that because what we
currently have is not where we're trying

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to go. So she's been really pushing that
so it aligns. So if we can circle back

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to Joan Cathy, right, and model that of
what you're saying to link it back to

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the stuff that you all have been working
on, then you're safer, right?

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I see Joan shaking her head. Yes. Yes.
Thank you. Yeah. Uh, another case uh is

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a good example and I call this the
listen to your city

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um of Springs versus City of Spokane.
Um, this involved a big development uh

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that was going through the process was
fully vested and the community was very

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much against this project and was
voicing that. The mayor uh then decided

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that he would invite all of the people
who were against the project to a

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council meeting. Uh then said in open
session, I want to know the status of

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this project. Who's the development
director? Development director said, uh

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it is proceeding with grading permits.
They will be breaking ground this week.

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And the mayor said, um I do not want you
to issue those grading permits. you need

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to stop this development. So, for
whatever reason, Karen I know would say,

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"Hold on, we need to have an executive
session. Let's go." And you, she would

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go into executive session and she would
explain the legal reasons why you don't

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want to do that. For whatever reason,
that escapes me. Nobody's ever explained

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it to me. The city attorney went on the
record and said, you know, Mr. Mayor,

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you cannot do this. it is illegal for
you to stop this. They're fully vested.

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The, you know, they the time is over.
You cannot stop this project. And the

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mayor said, "I don't care. These people
want this stopped. Stop the project.

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Don't issue the permits."
>> So, what do you think happened? Mission

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Springs sued.
>> Yeah.

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» And they said, "Uh-uh, fully vested. You
don't get to do this." And what happened

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in the case is because it was on the
record from the city attorney saying if

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you do this you're
>> the court found that the city the mayors

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had violated both federal and state law
by what they did and the delay. Now

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because the decision came down as
intentionally violated

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there was no coverage. their insurance
carrier said, "Uh, that was no accident.

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You knew you were breaking the law." So,
to this day, I don't know who paid for

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it. I know there was big money and there
was all kinds of other litigation after

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the fact. Um, but that case is one that
when you are given legal advice, you

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want to listen to that legal advice. Um,
and again, uh, know that, you know, your

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city attorney says is going to say, "We
need to go in executive session. We need

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to discuss this so that you're aware of
the risk that you're creating for this."

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I don't know, Karen, did you ever find
out who paid that? [laughter]

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» I never to the day I don't know.
>> Yeah.

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» Yes. I'm guessing the cities themselves
did. Um, I just want to mention a little

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bit about development agreements. And
this kind of comes on the heels of the

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Cleellum um, arbitration decision.
Development agreements are contracts.

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And so contracts are not covered by
insurance because it is a contract. And

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if you breach a contract, it's not an
accident. It's not looked upon under

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tort law. It's looked upon um, under
contract law. So I just there is nothing

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wrong with development agreements. Um,
but I just want you to be aware of that

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there are times when you might have a
long-term development agreement and you

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know you should know that you are
binding a future council to those

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decisions and sometimes that can be um
somewhat problematic but it is a

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contract and if you are inheriting a
development agreement um that is

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something that you have already
bargained for and so you don't you know

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a prior council has already made that
contract and breaching it comes with um

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probably no coverage for me um as well
as uh liability for the city. The other

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thing I will say
>> full disclosure, there's three

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development agreements currently under
discussion for consideration that coming

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forward to council in the next time
frame. So there's there's a series of

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development that are current
>> and they're a good way of you know

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deciding the rules for both parties. So,
I'm not anti them. It's just

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[clears throat] more I want to explain
to you that, you know, when you go that

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route, um,
>> your city attorney is a little more

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skeptical, but yes. [laughter]
>> So, um, I will say we there was one of

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our members had a case where there was a
development agreement that was in play

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for a long time. All of their code
changed and the current council was very

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much against this development agreement.
And so there was I think what the court

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said you kind the city slow played
working that and then oh it expired oh

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now you got to use the new rules and the
court said no not really yeah it expired

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but you city delayed too much so that
that was an interesting take and again

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we weren't involved but I am aware of it
that is it really an expiration date and

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the court said you don't get to play
gotcha um and ruled against uh the city

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on that one.
All right. Personnel. Um this is an area

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where I say you want to make sure you're
staying within your role as a council

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member. Um you want to stay in your
legislative role. It's adopting

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policies. It's setting budget. You do
not want to stray into the mayor's role.

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Um that is discipline. hiring, firing.
Anytime I have seen a council member

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stray into that area, nothing good comes
of it. Um, mainly because personnel law

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is very complex. There are all kinds of
laws to protect employees and you don't

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want to get involved and have confusion
with the employee andor the city itself.

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So, what we always say is you want to
leave all of that up to the mayor. If

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you're aware of an issue, please report
it to Paul and the mayor so that hey,

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there's an issue going on. It's been
brought to my attention and I've advised

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the employee that I'm going to notify
the mayor or Paul

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» and can we Ann and Karen because we
recently did a change regarding approval

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of contracts, right? We added the police
chief. Could you both talk about what is

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when we say hiring firing, but then
sometimes we're presenting a contract to

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council. Sometimes there's confusion.
So [clears throat] I believe what you're

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referring to is that um under our city
code, although the mayor makes an

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appointment of the directors, there are
some positions that require confirmation

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by the council. And so those um those
positions and and if we're approving a

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00:25:05,679 --> 00:25:15,039
director contract, at least in the past,
um the contracts would come to council.

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So um the uh finance director, the city
administrator, the city attorney and the

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00:25:17,039 --> 00:25:24,480
police chief require confirmation by the
council um for that appointment.

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However, that firing decision would not
require.

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So, what I will also mention is we have
a program, we call it our pre-defense

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00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:43,039
review that we offer legal advice
because personnel is always changing and

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00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:48,400
very complex where our members can call
and get a consultation with a personnel

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attorney and we walk through the entire
process and sometimes we're saying no,

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00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:57,760
you know, you can't or hey, how can we
help you? Here's the next steps. Um, one

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area where we're getting a lot of phone
calls is harassment, discrimination. And

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I really don't know what happened during
the pandemic, but when people came back

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to work, we don't know how to work well
together. And it's very, very disturbing

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to me how what I'm seeing um out there.
I mean, it really is. And so, what I

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will say is remember that you are all
held to the city's harassment

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00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:30,799
discrimination policy. So, you should
know what that is. Um, I personally I

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look at it as you don't have to know all
of the intricacies of the law. Treat

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people how you would want to be treated.
And I think the better is treat people

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how they want to be treated. And you
probably aren't going to get yourself

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00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:48,000
into trouble. But I think everyone knows
what's appropriate and what's not. And

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that's what's shocking me here is I
think this is knowing behavior and and a

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yeah, that's for other people, not me.
And so we are getting a lot of

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complaints. This is an area where you
can be sued individually if you are

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choosing to harass an employee. And you
know it it doesn't matter whether it's

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within your role as a council person.
You can be sued individually for

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harassing or discriminating against an
employee.

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» And we have Peter, you have your hand
up. [clears throat]

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» Yes. I I think municipal code need to be
set aside from executive rule.

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00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:34,440
Uh
oh, I'm sorry. Isn't that legislative? I

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00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:34,440
got you daydreaming. Don't mind me.

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00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:40,960
» Hate to hear your voice, Peter.
[laughter]

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00:27:37,919 --> 00:27:46,559
» Carry on.
>> Thank you, Peter.

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00:27:43,279 --> 00:27:51,600
Um, anything else from council? Eileen.
Well, the harassment piece of it. Yeah.

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00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:56,640
It's just like all not so much like not
this but um directed at elected

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officials and their staff and stuff and
so you know like Lieutenant Governor

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00:28:00,159 --> 00:28:05,840
Tech has a whole thing about stability
this whole program now and stuff like

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00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:11,279
that because
starting yeah with COVID and and you

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00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:15,440
know when just use whatever language you
want and we and I used to work at the

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00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:19,360
legislature and we became Yeah. just
targets and the filth and the stuff that

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00:28:17,279 --> 00:28:23,279
people would send to us and the stuff
that was on the phone and everything.

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00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:28,640
It's just
so how do we get protected? Well, I mean

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unfortunately and I what I'm talking
about in liability is what we call I

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mean there is harassment and then
there's illegal harassment and it's

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defined and unfortunately
um you know a lot of what's going on

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00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:50,640
against you is probably not illegal from
a liability standpoint. Um, what I will

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00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:55,760
say is there are areas where, and we're
going to get into this a little bit

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00:28:52,159 --> 00:29:01,520
later, but there are areas where, you
know, a staff person probably has some

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rights depending on how things are
phrased with them. So, if it's um,

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00:29:05,919 --> 00:29:12,720
I don't I don't like the job she's doing
because she's a woman and she's too

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00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:18,960
emotional, that's illegal and that's not
okay. So there's a little bit of nuance

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there for, you know, and as an employee,
we're protected, um, from that. So, um,

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00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:30,960
but unfortunately, um, this is an area
which I agree with you, it's gotten out

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00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:37,600
of control on elected officials. Um, and
I I don't have an easy answer for you. I

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00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:42,399
really don't. Um, I think the civility
initiatives that are going on are are

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00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:50,159
great, and I'm hoping those continue. I
really do. Um again, this area also has

351
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:56,480
come up in um elections where there was
a a mayor who was touching female

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00:29:53,840 --> 00:30:01,039
employees inappropriately. And so the
idea was that at that point the city

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00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:05,520
manager said, I'm, you know, I am
restricting you from any part of city

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00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:10,080
hall. You cannot interact with my staff.
We're going to send you through some

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00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:16,240
training. And that happened and then
elections came and guess who campaigned

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00:30:12,399 --> 00:30:21,919
against them? The women who had been
touched and they had signs, they went to

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00:30:19,279 --> 00:30:28,640
the, you know, the meetings and said, "I
this is not okay." And so again, I mean,

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00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:34,720
he should have known that. Um, but be
aware it has long-term ramifications for

359
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:39,039
you as well.
Uh, negligent misrepresentation. This is

360
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:44,799
we'll kind of go through an example
here, but this is where we ask that you

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don't make specific promises and
assurances to people and that's because

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00:30:46,799 --> 00:30:52,960
of this thing called negligent
misrepresentation.

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00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:58,000
So what this I'll give you an example
first and we'll kind of walk through it.

364
00:30:54,480 --> 00:31:03,520
So back many years ago, one of our
cities has a downtown that has cute, you

365
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:07,520
know, it's all cedar shingles. And so
this town's code said if you take down

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00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:13,120
cedar shingle, you have to put up cedar
shingle on your business. So a business

367
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:17,520
owner went into city hall, met with the
mayor, and said, "Look, I can't afford

368
00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:21,840
that. I'm going to have to shut down
unless you waste that." And the mayor

369
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:27,120
said, "Well, you know what? We love your
business. I'll go ahead and wave that.

370
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:30,000
Well, unfortunately, he never told the
code enforcement officer that he was

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00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:34,720
waving it, and he didn't have the
authority to wave it. It's code. And so,

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00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:41,279
this business owner tore down all of
their shingle and put up um other

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00:31:37,679 --> 00:31:45,279
sighting. And so, what happened was he
filed a claim for negligent

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00:31:42,799 --> 00:31:49,519
misrepresentation. There was a specific
promise. There was an assurance that you

375
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:56,640
could do it. And he relied on it and it
damaged him. And so we WCIA paid for the

376
00:31:54,240 --> 00:32:01,840
replacement of, you know, taking down
all of the stuff he had put up and the

377
00:31:59,279 --> 00:32:07,200
cost of that. So that's negligent
misrepresentation. If you make a promise

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00:32:04,799 --> 00:32:12,480
and somebody relies on it and they're
damaged because of it and you were

379
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:18,320
wrong, we that could create liability.
So what I always say is refer questions

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00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:22,960
to staff. These are your experts. Staff
are the experts here. You can always

381
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:28,320
say, "I don't know, but I know where you
can get the answer. It's here." So,

382
00:32:25,679 --> 00:32:32,399
again, um you also don't want to take
matters into your own hands. I've had

383
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:36,799
situations back in the day with like a
sewer backup where I mean, trust me,

384
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:40,640
it's a horrible thing that when it
happens, and I've had council members

385
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:45,679
say, "Don't worry, we will take care of
everything. Just make a list. We'll pay

386
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:49,200
for it all." And that sounds really nice
until you realize that it was caused by

387
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:54,960
a contractor putting concrete down the
manhole and they're responsible, but the

388
00:32:52,399 --> 00:32:56,159
citizen said,"I was told that you would
take care of it all."

389
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,200
» Y
>> and I relied on that and I hired all

390
00:32:57,919 --> 00:33:05,440
these people and now I've got to fight
with a contractor. Not okay.

391
00:33:01,919 --> 00:33:11,679
» So again, um I always say I don't know,
but I know where I can get you an answer

392
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:19,200
and that's the safest thing to do.
Defamation. And this is an area um that

393
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:23,600
if you are legislating and you are
having a healthy debate, that's what

394
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:28,799
you're here for. You are here to have
debate. But you need to be careful when

395
00:33:26,159 --> 00:33:36,399
you're speaking about individuals
that can give rise to liability if there

396
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:43,039
is any untruth. So there are times when
you can talk about public officials. Um

397
00:33:40,399 --> 00:33:47,200
there's kind of a higher bar if you're a
public official and this kind of gets to

398
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:51,919
what we're talking about is there is no
defamation when you're talking about

399
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:56,320
highlevel public officials. So even I
would probably be considered a highle

400
00:33:53,760 --> 00:34:03,200
public official as an executive director
but it's still not a good practice and

401
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:09,280
especially staff or any other private
individual that could give rise to

402
00:34:05,279 --> 00:34:15,919
liability. So, what I would say is that
again, um, most of the time, especially

403
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:18,960
if you have an issue where, um, you're
going to talk about performance of an

404
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:23,520
employee, you want to do that in
executive session. That's what it's

405
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:28,000
there for. So, um, often this will come
up with contracts for, you know, the

406
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:32,159
city administrator is a good one where
you're going to have those conversations

407
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:38,800
in executive session so that you don't
create um, an avenue for defamation. And

408
00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:43,760
the one lawsuit I had um from that was
actually a city administrator and a

409
00:34:41,919 --> 00:34:49,040
council member continuously called that
person a liar and said, "They lie. I

410
00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:54,320
challenge you. You're lying. You're not
telling the truth." And did it

411
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:58,400
repeatedly. The city um administrator
left employment. And then the council

412
00:34:56,639 --> 00:35:02,800
member took it upon themselves to
contact the new employer and say, "I

413
00:35:01,359 --> 00:35:07,440
can't believe you hired this person.
They're a liar. They will lie to your

414
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:13,040
face. they will misrepresent. they will.
And so what happened is there was a

415
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:21,359
lawsuit that said this whole time I, you
know, yes, as a high-end city official,

416
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:28,320
yes, I am protected under that idea that
they can say these things. However, it

417
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:30,960
went next level after I left. And WCIA
said, "That's not in the course and

418
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:34,480
scope of your duties as a council
member." And that council member had no

419
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:40,079
coverage through us because we said,
"You went too far." and that was with

420
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:44,480
the city agreed um and said no we we
shouldn't have to defend that. That was

421
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:50,240
100% him as an individual, not as a
council member. And so that's where um

422
00:35:47,839 --> 00:35:53,760
the lawsuit gave rise to liability. So
again, treat others as you'd like to be

423
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:58,079
treated. Would you like those kind of
things um being said about you in a

424
00:35:55,520 --> 00:36:02,480
public meeting? Probably not.
Yeah, it's one of the reasons our

425
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:07,680
council rules um for public comment say
to speak to the council as a whole and

426
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:13,359
not individually. And the same goes with
council um during debate um speak to the

427
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:19,599
issues. Um it doesn't have to be
personal and individual's needs.

428
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:23,040
And I will say a lot of times when I do
this training, people will say, "But

429
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:26,960
what about campaigns?" Believe it or
not, there is a decision, a court

430
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:32,240
decision that says you can defame your
um opponent and not it's not illegal for

431
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:37,040
you to defame someone when you're um
>> but it would be illegal to do it in city

432
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:41,280
hall in these chambers. So,
>> right. [laughter]

433
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:46,000
But I remember like what where are we at
that we have a court decision that says

434
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:50,705
you can defame your opponent? I mean
again I'll I'll stop. [laughter]

435
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:58,079
So the next area I want to talk to you
about um and this is kind of becoming a

436
00:36:56,079 --> 00:37:03,520
hot topic um and what we're advocating
for with the legislature. So I have this

437
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:08,079
term here politically political
engineering but I want to walk you

438
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:11,680
through why this is so important. So in
the state of Washington we have

439
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:16,079
something called joint and several
liability and this is what we're asking

440
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:23,680
to reform. So joint and several
liability says if two parties are sued

441
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:28,560
and the plaintiff is fault-free,
if there is at least 1% of fault

442
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:35,359
attributed to a party, they are
responsible for the entire amount of

443
00:37:31,839 --> 00:37:41,520
damages awarded. So for example, you
could have a case where the city is

444
00:37:37,839 --> 00:37:48,400
maybe 10% at fault and another party is
90% at fault. the plaintiffs can collect

445
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:54,560
the entire amount from the city even
though they're only 10% at fault. So

446
00:37:51,359 --> 00:38:01,839
what this has led to um is what is
called deep pocket liability. And so

447
00:37:58,079 --> 00:38:09,920
what we have seen is often this is used
in road design cases. And so you have a

448
00:38:05,599 --> 00:38:14,720
horrific injury and the at fault party
doesn't have insurance or not enough

449
00:38:11,839 --> 00:38:20,000
insurance. they will then look to
another party, a deep pocket to see if

450
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:26,880
they can get at least 1% of liability
assigned to that um entity so that they

451
00:38:23,599 --> 00:38:34,079
can collect the entire amount. So um
this means a lot of these cases um get

452
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:39,680
brought frequently because there's not
enough insurance to cover the injuries.

453
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:44,880
So these become engineering what we call
engineering malpractice cases. And it's

454
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:50,240
extremely important that when you're
defending the decision of a crosswalk,

455
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:56,400
of a road, of any type of traffic
treatment that it be done with engineers

456
00:38:53,599 --> 00:39:00,960
using engineering guidance and because
you're going to have to be able to say

457
00:38:58,079 --> 00:39:06,960
this decision was because of XYZ and
this is the engineering behind it.

458
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:11,839
When in the past we would find what we
call political engineering where council

459
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:18,480
will say, "I really want a crosswalk
here." People are are jaywalking. We

460
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:22,640
need a crosswalk. Well, that can be a
very dangerous proposition. They're not

461
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:27,040
force fields. They need to be
engineered. And you know, a midblock

462
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:32,079
crosswalk is one of the most dangerous
things you can install. Um, and so they

463
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:37,119
have to be engineered and there needs to
be appropriate treatments for signage.

464
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:42,560
Sometimes you need lights, sometimes you
need, you know, full stopping. So that's

465
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:47,760
why you want to make sure that you are
following your traffic engineering um,

466
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:51,920
advice and that they are making that
decision.

467
00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:57,680
» So bringing this up, we are getting a
lot of these concerns, right? And so

468
00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:02,560
when I have been going out, I take
Brandon Hicks comes out. And so we have

469
00:40:00,079 --> 00:40:06,560
those black boxes. So when we hear a
concern, we also have our traffic team

470
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:10,320
that you can send constituents to,
right? It's a whole team with multiple

471
00:40:08,079 --> 00:40:14,240
departments that research. They go out,
they track the data, at least like

472
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:17,680
10,000 trips, right? And they figure all
of that out and they'll explain all that

473
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:22,720
stuff. So that's why anything that comes
in, we have the traffic team, traffic

474
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:26,640
team, traffic team, traffic team,
right? But your job as an ambassador is

475
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:29,520
to hear all that and then connect them
>> to the right piece and then let them do

476
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:34,320
their thing
>> and and you know that's exactly let

477
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:37,599
staff respond to these complaints.
>> That's why we hired them.

478
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:42,000
» Yep. And and you want to avoid
inflammatory types of statements. Um I

479
00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:46,079
was at a council meeting many years ago
and I heard on the record how many

480
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:50,320
people have to die before we put a
crosswalk in.

481
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:54,000
» Yeah. [laughter] And so, you know,
especially from the council, you don't

482
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:58,480
want to have those statements. I will
also say sometimes you will have a

483
00:40:55,760 --> 00:41:03,839
horrific accident occur in your city and
you want to resist um the temptation to

484
00:41:01,359 --> 00:41:09,200
immediately address andor fix that
problem. It is horrific. It's horrible.

485
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:14,480
But you can really create liability.
We've had situations where um you know,

486
00:41:11,839 --> 00:41:18,240
the driver said, "I just never saw the
kid in the crosswalk. The sunlight was

487
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:21,839
in my eyes." But afterwards the council
said, "Oh, that was an accident waiting

488
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:26,560
to happen. There was speeding all down
that road. I knew someday somebody would

489
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:31,200
be killed. They were called by the
plaintiffs as a witness at trial."

490
00:41:29,359 --> 00:41:35,440
» That is an example we have experienced
with a couple incidents blaming it on

491
00:41:33,599 --> 00:41:40,800
one thing and then that's why we have
Dr. Bowers and police who researched it

492
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:45,520
and it was not what the stereotype was.
It was this anomaly and something else

493
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:50,880
happened that had nothing to do. Right.
So, we have two recent examples of that

494
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:54,480
where it wasn't speed data, it wasn't
because of location, it was because of

495
00:41:52,160 --> 00:42:00,079
some other factor.
>> And so, just keep that in mind um as

496
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:05,760
these come up. Um it sounds like you've
got a great um you know, way to address

497
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:09,040
all of this. So, that, you know, isn't
always the case. So, I very much

498
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:14,640
appreciate that that you guys are doing
that ahead of time. Any questions on

499
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:19,200
that one? and watch the legislative tour
committee for um joint and several

500
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:22,640
liability. We're asking them um for we
have several asked for it. So, we're

501
00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:25,200
we're trying to get that one through. I
don't think it'll happen this year, but

502
00:42:23,839 --> 00:42:29,200
we'll keep having the conversation.
>> Put it on our lobbyist list track for

503
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:33,680
council.
>> Yeah.

504
00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:37,040
» Was legislation in the past, right?
Last session, right?

505
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:42,720
» They they were trying, but it didn't get
very far. and and so AWC, myself, the

506
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:47,920
association of counties, we're all kind
of trying to um bring this forward and

507
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:52,240
we have a whole bunch of apps that could
help solve this problem. So, this has

508
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:56,480
always been a discussion. It really has
not gained traction, but we're going to

509
00:42:53,839 --> 00:43:01,599
keep trying. So, we'll see. We'll see
what happens.

510
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:05,920
Uh this is an area where I'm going to
ask you to resist the temptation to

511
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:12,240
share. Please do not leak executive
session information. Executive session

512
00:43:09,599 --> 00:43:15,760
um exists for a reason because you're
having conversations that if they were

513
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:19,599
out in the public, it would be a
detriment to the city. So, I always

514
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:24,079
equate it to you're buying a house. You
know, you're buying a house and you want

515
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:29,040
to talk to your significant other about
what's our top dollar, where do we want

516
00:43:26,079 --> 00:43:34,400
to go, what's our maximum, what are we
thinking, and you're having those

517
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:38,800
discussions, you know, on your home in
the privacy of whatever conversation

518
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:44,079
you're having. If you had that in the
public domain, what is the seller going

519
00:43:41,119 --> 00:43:50,160
to do? I'll take your top number. And
this has happened. Um, I had a case

520
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:54,319
where I went into a mediation and I, you
know, mediations are, you know, you're

521
00:43:52,319 --> 00:43:58,560
you're making offers, you're receiving
offers. And finally, at one point I

522
00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:03,200
said, "Well, that's my top dollar. Um,
that's where I'm at." And it was where I

523
00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:07,040
was at for that day. And the media came
back and said, "You know what? They know

524
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:11,359
what authority you have because the
council asked and the city attorney said

525
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:13,920
she got authority up to this amount."
Now, that doesn't mean just because I

526
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:18,319
have the authority doesn't mean that's
my dollar. I I was just I had authority

527
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:23,920
to go that high, but I wasn't going to
do that.

528
00:44:19,599 --> 00:44:26,640
» And I was stunned because now they'll
never accept anything less than that

529
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:32,400
number.
>> So, we then said to that council, we're

530
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:36,800
done. We are not going to communicate
what's going on in cases. We're not

531
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:41,760
going to give statuses because we can't
trust that that won't be legal.

532
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:47,040
» That's right. So, just know that is our
penalty when we know that there's leaks.

533
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:51,119
Um, I've had situations where my whole
defense plan somehow ended up on the

534
00:44:49,119 --> 00:44:56,800
front page of a newspaper and I know
that came from a council member and I

535
00:44:52,800 --> 00:45:00,960
again, um, if you are in executive
session and you're given material,

536
00:44:58,319 --> 00:45:05,280
always give it back. Um there was a case
that um one of our attorneys handed out

537
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:09,119
some information during executive
session giving out legal advice and

538
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:13,839
somehow missed one of the pieces of
paper. They came out. They all were on

539
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:20,240
the dis and one of the council members
got up and walked over to the attorney

540
00:45:17,359 --> 00:45:25,040
for the citizens group and said here you
go. And I have never seen a city

541
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:30,000
attorney move so fast in my life. um
just leapt across the room, started, you

542
00:45:28,079 --> 00:45:33,839
know, this is you, you know, we did not
wave privilege. And they're kind of

543
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:36,640
arguing over this piece of paper and she
quickly turned to every council member

544
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:40,160
said, "Did you wave privilege? Did you
wave privilege? Did you wave privilege?"

545
00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:44,160
Because the you can't wave privilege
individually. It's the council as a

546
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:48,800
whole has that attorney client privilege
and luckily was able to get that handled

547
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:52,079
immediately and said, you know, that is
a privilege document. Nobody here waved

548
00:45:51,119 --> 00:45:54,480
privilege.
>> Yeah.

549
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:59,040
» Yeah. Don't do that.
And then what ended up happening is the

550
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:04,720
council sanctioned that council member
um for doing that. And so again um it is

551
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:09,839
possible that you could have sanctions
and it happened in that area. So just be

552
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:15,359
aware.
Uh as always be mindful of your written

553
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:22,400
communications. Um you want to make sure
you're using the city email. That is for

554
00:46:18,319 --> 00:46:28,640
public records. It must be retained. The
city needs to be able to produce any of

555
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:33,760
the emails you have written on behalf of
the city when you're, you know, working

556
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:37,680
on in your role as a council member. So,
you want to make sure you're using your

557
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:42,319
city email address, not your personal
address. It is um discoverable in

558
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:49,280
litigation. So, think about I mean, once
again, words matter. So, think about if

559
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:53,359
that email was produced, what what would
you how would you feel about that being

560
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:56,560
on the front page of the newspaper?
That's the best

561
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:59,839
» we just updated your council rules,
right? When you know Peter had asked

562
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:03,200
great questions at times, what if it's
in a timely manner, right? When Tracy

563
00:47:01,599 --> 00:47:05,680
and Melody are reaching out to you and
Britney,

564
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:09,280
» do you have anything on your personal
device? Do you have anything on your

565
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:12,480
city like email, phone, all that? So,
when they're asking, it's because

566
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:16,640
they're really asking. So, we had talked
about what's a timely manner to respond

567
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:20,079
back because you don't know behind the
scenes of who's requesting what. So, you

568
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:25,520
have to make sure that you have the
capacity to give everything that you

569
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:32,400
have. Peter, I see Peter, you were
unmuted now.

570
00:47:28,079 --> 00:47:36,960
» No, I was just shaking my head. Yes,
>> I'll take it, Peter. I'll take it. But

571
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:40,800
that's why we want to make sure that we
connect with you and you right. That's

572
00:47:39,119 --> 00:47:44,640
why we have your text messages, your
city cell phones, that's why you have

573
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:47,839
those because then staff can pull that.
They can pull your emails, but if you're

574
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:51,040
doing something on your personal email
or your personal phone or your social

575
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:54,640
media, you have to share that as well if
it's related to that topic. That's why

576
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:58,758
we want you to keep everything separate.
That's why I have three phones.

577
00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:00,960
Everything is separate. I do the same.
[laughter]

578
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:06,319
I have two phones. They're all separate.
I don't do any of my WCI business on my

579
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:09,280
personal computer or my personal phone.
>> Then you don't have to worry about it.

580
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:14,160
and then I know there's nothing there
and it's all being housed within our

581
00:48:11,599 --> 00:48:22,079
servers for my public records officer to
search. Um, also I just a brief thing on

582
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:26,800
social media remember is it a um
personal account, is it a city account

583
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:32,079
or is it an election account? And I will
tell you AWC does a fantastic training

584
00:48:29,359 --> 00:48:37,200
on social media. So, um, if you can, you
want to do that training. Um, my

585
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:41,280
involvement in this is really more on
the first amendment side of things. So,

586
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:48,240
um, if you want detail, definitely go
through AWC on that. Um, the real

587
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:52,800
question is if you have a city email
account, you can do something which is

588
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:55,760
called opening a public forum. So, a
public forum is where you have

589
00:48:54,160 --> 00:49:02,400
discussions back and forth with the
public. And when you open a public forum

590
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:08,240
with the exception of certain areas, you
cannot block or stop that dialogue. So

591
00:49:06,559 --> 00:49:14,079
you have to be very careful. I mean
there has to be certain exceptions met.

592
00:49:10,720 --> 00:49:17,760
And so we had a case where a mayor
opened a public forum. And sorry these

593
00:49:16,079 --> 00:49:23,440
are all mayor. That's not I'm not I'm
not disar not disparaging mayors here.

594
00:49:20,079 --> 00:49:28,960
But he had his personal account. He
started talking city business and was

595
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:30,960
like throwing out how do you feel about
that constituents? What are you

596
00:49:30,559 --> 00:49:34,880
thinking?
>> On a personal page.

597
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:41,200
» On a personal page. And so this then
became because he was asking city

598
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:48,720
questions, city business. It became a
city page for purposes of opening up a

599
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:54,400
public forum. And then someone started
posting on it and saying and and this

600
00:49:52,000 --> 00:50:01,440
person was a member of a hate group and
a lot of what was posted was not very

601
00:49:56,720 --> 00:50:05,839
nice and he blocked that person. That
person immediately filed a first

602
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:09,119
amendment lawsuit said you opened a
public forum. You don't get to shut me

603
00:50:07,839 --> 00:50:15,520
down because you don't like what I'm
saying. And guess what? They were right

604
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:19,599
and we had to pay him. So just be aware
of that aspect. That's the only aspect

605
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:24,319
I'm kind of addressing here is that
first amendment often and I don't know

606
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:30,240
if you guys do cities do have um social
media policies

607
00:50:26,559 --> 00:50:36,160
» and then just the mayor has a social
>> and then every all the council member

608
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:38,160
would potentially have a campaign page.
>> Yeah. And those are totally separate,

609
00:50:37,599 --> 00:50:42,160
» right?
>> So there is a there was a decision that

610
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:46,400
came down on that that said and so there
are some decisions out there that talk

611
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:48,240
about how you're using it. Um but I
think that's

612
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:53,760
» council's been going back and forth if
they want a page or not. So far no one

613
00:50:51,760 --> 00:51:00,880
has one.
>> Yeah. Our our city um sites have a very

614
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:04,835
robust um policies. What
>> I said dialogue [laughter]

615
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:10,440
at that
>> and and they're monitored.

616
00:51:10,720 --> 00:51:19,599
» So that's really important. and then you
know your your campaign

617
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:24,079
» what are on your own. So it's that
middle ground. Um I think where where

618
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:28,800
there's most exposure
>> if you do want one, right? I just had to

619
00:51:25,599 --> 00:51:32,160
do it for the mayor's page. You have to
get act staff has access. You have to

620
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:36,319
vault it, right? Because it's open to
public information and PDRs, right? And

621
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:38,960
then they go in and answer questions and
stuff like that. So they have full

622
00:51:37,599 --> 00:51:41,920
access to it because it's all public
information. So if you do want that,

623
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:46,160
you're going to have to go through the
city to do that to have a monitor and

624
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:52,160
everything is vaulted and captured and
then you can't block anything.

625
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:56,960
» Well, that's not
I'm not blocking.

626
00:51:54,319 --> 00:52:01,440
» It needs to be pertinent to the topic
that was introduced on the

627
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:08,880
» Yes. the discussion.
I have a question about email and um is

628
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:12,000
just like like a a social norm like we
don't respond typically to constituents

629
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:17,440
but I don't know if that's something
that we've accepted as a whole or if

630
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:20,480
that's part of council rules or
>> you can reply

631
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:24,000
» we can I didn't I didn't know
>> my name is Lea you can reply

632
00:52:22,319 --> 00:52:27,680
» I do reply
>> I feel uncomfortable I mean it depends

633
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:32,160
on the topic
>> and and that's I mean I think that's the

634
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:35,680
I think that kind of opens up. I mean,
other than Yeah. Have a great day. And I

635
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:38,880
mean, I used to respond.
>> We're not having you answer, but you can

636
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:41,760
reply back and say, "Got it. I forward
it to staff. We'll circle back."

637
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,480
» Yeah. Because
>> Okay. But I just Okay.

638
00:52:43,119 --> 00:52:47,599
» Yeah. I'm not having you I don't want
you to answer the question.

639
00:52:45,599 --> 00:52:50,720
» I'm just thinking about like and not our
council, but like other councils.

640
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:54,960
» We're not worried about other council.
>> I'm just throwing it out there as a

641
00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:58,880
saying that if there's anything as far
as um our liability when we're

642
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:02,400
responding.
>> Yeah. That's why you always forward them

643
00:53:00,720 --> 00:53:05,520
to staff because you don't want to
answer an engineering question because

644
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:10,000
you're not an engineer but you're
>> represent come in and I will then reply

645
00:53:08,079 --> 00:53:16,079
and go got it council has it forward it
to applicable staff they'll

646
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:22,319
» yeah but
one particular from

647
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:25,119
» when do you serve on a I'm thinking oh
so anyway

648
00:53:23,839 --> 00:53:26,960
» well give an example what that name
means because we're talking about

649
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:33,280
liability here
>> so um as far as they serve on, you know,

650
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:38,000
as a council member and then you serve
on a committee and then going that far

651
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:40,880
to even responding to constituents as a
committee member. I don't I mean I just

652
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:45,680
kind of feel like
>> you're getting Yeah, really getting

653
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:48,800
before you do that, you want to talk
>> when you're serving representing the

654
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:51,200
city on another committee.
>> Yeah.

655
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:56,160
» I think that the response is the same.
there's staff assigned those committees

656
00:53:54,079 --> 00:54:00,240
and so that you can still refer people
to staff um if you're not comfortable

657
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:04,000
with
>> well it's like other than letting the

658
00:54:01,839 --> 00:54:10,240
executive director as that was their
task to answer the question probably

659
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:15,680
» yeah they took the lead to do that
>> absolutely staff in my experience staff

660
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:18,000
is always happy to answer those
questions

661
00:54:16,240 --> 00:54:22,880
» yeah
I think I see what you're I thought you

662
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:27,040
were more
>> I thought you were more asking for when

663
00:54:24,720 --> 00:54:31,440
the constituents outreach you to meet
and I know I get a lot of questions

664
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:36,960
about can I meet with these folks.
>> I mean just got that request right and

665
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:41,119
she checked in right so yeah. Yeah. And
I think a couple things like if you're

666
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:46,640
on an intergovernmental
group for another governmental agency, I

667
00:54:44,319 --> 00:54:50,559
think you can work with their staff and
you can also supplement that with our

668
00:54:48,559 --> 00:54:53,680
staff from Twater too.
>> If you're not satisfied with their staff

669
00:54:52,240 --> 00:54:57,680
and their staff's response. I think the
other thing too is if a message comes in

670
00:54:55,839 --> 00:55:02,079
to the full council,
>> I'll ask staff to share that to share

671
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:05,440
their response. You know, they'll
respond to it and then I'll say make

672
00:55:03,839 --> 00:55:09,680
sure you share that with council. Yeah.
And I always try to add the caveat like

673
00:55:07,839 --> 00:55:13,520
if you need additional followup or have
additional questions or if the you know

674
00:55:11,839 --> 00:55:17,040
if that didn't fully if you didn't feel
like there the staff response fully hit

675
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:21,599
the mark then that then always reach
follow back up with us so that we can

676
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:26,000
then correct that message. I I think
something that Eileen's referring to is

677
00:55:23,839 --> 00:55:31,760
we are on outside committees and
sometimes I think that electeds forget

678
00:55:28,720 --> 00:55:36,640
that when they're on these outside
boards or committees, they're not

679
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:40,559
representing themselves as these are my
beliefs and these are my wants and my

680
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:46,000
needs. I'm representing
all of council. And I think that that

681
00:55:43,119 --> 00:55:49,200
does become problematic.
>> But yeah.

682
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:52,720
» Yeah. And that's it. It's just like it
hasn't happened before, but it's

683
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:56,160
starting to etch up a little. And what
was the norm that we didn't, you know,

684
00:55:54,480 --> 00:56:00,160
we don't respond, you know, that count
that you took care of it. Like you see

685
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:04,000
that starting to
>> we have that we don't do that.

686
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:07,119
» We're seeing other juris right because
that came back because Peter on one of

687
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:10,079
his assignments came back and said,
"Yeah, another jurisdiction saying that

688
00:56:08,720 --> 00:56:13,839
they can't represent and they can't
vote." Right. We all had the discussion

689
00:56:12,079 --> 00:56:17,680
is no like you're voting representing
the city and we're giving you like we're

690
00:56:15,359 --> 00:56:20,960
entrusting you to represent the city and
vote right so but if you do have a

691
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:25,200
question but that's why you come back
and give your council assignments right

692
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:29,599
we entrust Peter on his committee to
vote for us there not like hold anything

693
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:33,680
up and come back right but that's why
you have the staff assigned you have

694
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:38,559
your assignments it's a good example
>> it is

695
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:44,559
so with that
>> I'm done you guys were fantastic. Do you

696
00:56:41,839 --> 00:56:48,000
have any other questions for me? I'm
happy to answer.

697
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:51,520
» Angela, Peter, any comments thoughts
what you heard tonight? Anything come up

698
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:56,640
for you?
>> No.

699
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:59,920
Good presentation.
>> Good presentation.

700
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:10,240
» Good. Angela,
>> yes, it was very good. I always um

701
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:13,559
think twice after briefings like this.
Thank [clears throat] you.

702
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:21,359
» Joan's going to give a thumbs up.
>> Thank you,

703
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:25,920
» Megan, Kelly, Eileen, Brandon.
And she's always available. So, if you

704
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:28,960
have questions and Yeah. And thank you
so much for being a member of WCIA. We

705
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:33,040
really appreciate it.
>> Thank you.

706
00:57:30,079 --> 00:57:33,040
» Thank you very much.

707
00:57:34,319 --> 00:57:39,149
H how how is that going to go after
that?

708
00:57:37,129 --> 00:57:39,149
» [laughter]

709
00:57:39,599 --> 00:57:50,319
» Community develop 2026 work plan status
update chair and Brad

710
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:55,440
they're going to start with music now
>> acappella [laughter]

711
00:57:52,559 --> 00:58:00,079
» we have a consultant that we're gonna
invite in virtually

712
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:05,200
» he's a panelist
status what are we doing first

713
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:05,200
» it's

714
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:14,359
We don't apologize. Thanks for joining
the table.

715
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:17,140
[clears throat]

716
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:25,359
» And Sharon, who do we have on?
>> Well, we we have Eric Bagwell, but I was

717
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:28,400
told
>> we're doing the work first. So, Eric

718
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:31,440
will join us for the next
>> Yeah,

719
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:36,135
» Eric, we will say hi to you now. We will
wait until the next item.

720
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,135
» No problem. [laughter]

721
00:58:37,119 --> 00:58:42,640
» So, Community Development has a council
approved work plan and we'll be coming

722
00:58:40,559 --> 00:58:47,119
to you in December for a joint planning
commission council work session to

723
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:50,720
develop the 2027 work plan. We came to
you last December. Um, and I wanted to

724
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:54,559
come to you at the midpoint of the year
just to tell you how we're progressing,

725
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:58,640
what's on track, what's slower, what's
taking longer. Um, so just to check in

726
00:58:57,359 --> 00:59:02,079
with you and I'm just going to go line
by line what this is kind of the layout

727
00:59:00,079 --> 00:59:06,280
of the work plan if you remember what
that was. Um,

728
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:14,760
I did not.

729
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:22,400
» Okay. So we have um the city under the
growth management act we are allowed to

730
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:28,559
update the comprehensive plan once per
year and we had four comp plan related

731
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:33,119
elements. Um in 2025 we updated most of
the comp plan but we had two elements

732
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:37,760
that weren't part of that 2021 update.
One was the parks plan and one was the

733
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:41,839
economic development plan. Parks plan
was on this year's work plan but it is

734
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:45,520
going to be delayed. Um I believe
they're applying for a grant application

735
00:59:43,599 --> 00:59:49,920
to get a consultant. So they are
scheduled for adoption in December 2027.

736
00:59:48,319 --> 00:59:54,319
So that's not part of this year's work
fund. Um economic development plan is

737
00:59:52,960 --> 01:00:00,640
proceeding and we hope to have that to
you mid December for council adoption or

738
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:05,280
economic plan. And then we have a joint
plan with Hston County. Um they're

739
01:00:03,359 --> 01:00:09,839
leading on that and they haven't gotten
going. So not

740
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:16,720
well that will probably carry over 20%
as well. There had been a UG swap

741
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:20,880
application. uh the applicant withdrew
and then let you speak to the urban

742
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:26,720
growth area study 2027.
>> So related to the urban growth swap

743
01:00:23,359 --> 01:00:31,119
application uh that prompted on the dire
on the city's part to look at the whole

744
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:34,640
beach uh we have a number of reasons to
look at what could be expanded or

745
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:39,520
retracted but we think it would be more
appropriate to do that on a citywide

746
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:44,880
level. We're preparing an RFP uh to
issue this fall and then we're going to

747
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:49,040
be commencing work on that in next year.
Uh from that study, we anticipate we'll

748
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:54,160
have some changes to UVA that will need
to be on the county docket to address.

749
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:57,400
Uh but we'll involve
that point.

750
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:09,359
» There we go. It didn't work. Okay. Next
items have to do with the development

751
01:01:06,799 --> 01:01:14,000
regulations or the code. So we had a
state mandated um code update for

752
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:18,079
housing codes and we had anticipated we
have an anticipated adoption date in

753
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:23,440
January. Um the transportation impact
fee is coming to you in um January as

754
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:27,760
well. Uh we had a housekeeping ordinance
that you adopted in April. Remember what

755
01:01:26,079 --> 01:01:32,000
was in there? I don't remember in that
anyway it was minor housekeeping things

756
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:38,160
that you've already approved. Um the
multif family tax exemption um code

757
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:40,880
expires in December 2026. Eric Bagwell
is our consultant evaluating that

758
01:01:39,599 --> 01:01:45,599
program. He's going to speak to that in
a moment. What we're bringing to you um

759
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:49,440
for approval is just to extend that
program by one year to give him time to

760
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:53,760
do his study because you won't have his
final results until early next year. And

761
01:01:52,079 --> 01:01:57,680
then you'll be able to make another
round of code amendments to adapt the

762
01:01:55,520 --> 01:02:00,079
program. But for now, we're just going
to move the deadline so it doesn't

763
01:01:58,799 --> 01:02:04,960
completely expire. just giving us
another year to get the results of that.

764
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:10,319
Uh thirst county code, they have a code
title 22 that pertains to all of the

765
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:14,319
area in the um urban growth area, but
this is the area parts of the land that

766
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:17,359
city will eventually annex. Um they are
going to update their title 22. We're

767
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:21,119
going to have an opportunity to review
it. Basically adopting all of our zones

768
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:25,520
and regulations, but we haven't seen
that yet. It's led by them. So there's

769
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:29,520
been a delay there. Then most of you
joined us on the urban forestry

770
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:36,960
management bus tour to see the sites. We
are working very hard to um bring you

771
01:02:33,359 --> 01:02:40,400
some code early part of next year, but
it's taking longer than we had

772
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:45,520
anticipated may go longer than our
anticipated date of February.

773
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:50,520
» Uh John has her hand up.
>> Yes, John. There you are. Hello.

774
01:02:57,119 --> 01:03:10,240
» Can you do it again? I have a question
on the um last one, the um

775
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:15,599
» anticipated uh uh thing in February. Um
will this urban forestry management plan

776
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:22,000
amendments
have anything to do with changing our

777
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:27,520
tree ordinance? Is that still part of
>> of of doing?

778
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:34,200
» Yes, it's a landscape code. the tree
preservation and the street tree code.

779
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:34,200
» So,

780
01:03:34,799 --> 01:03:45,039
I I' I've kind of lost where the the um
the tree code is, the one for anyone who

781
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:49,920
does any kind of developing or scraping
the trees off the earth and how many and

782
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:56,559
what it costs and all of that. We've had
this tree code that's quite old or

783
01:03:54,079 --> 01:04:04,799
barelyed along the way. And I'm
wondering is that is that included in

784
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:08,720
this or is this a se or is it a separate
>> it is it is included in the tree

785
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:13,760
preservation code. So this project was
paused in 2023 and we've resumed it this

786
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:16,799
year
>> which

787
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:19,760
» this leads into Joe. I've reviewed the
three version I mean I reviewed the

788
01:04:18,559 --> 01:04:26,000
three different entities and I was just
asking um I submitted my comments but I

789
01:04:23,359 --> 01:04:30,799
think council needs to see it.
>> Yeah. So Joan just as a quick update of

790
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:35,200
of why we're still in progress working
through this. Number one, it's been a

791
01:04:33,359 --> 01:04:38,559
threeyear gap since we did the original
work. There's been a change in

792
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:43,920
administration. There's been new staff
coming on uh to replace me. And I think

793
01:04:41,599 --> 01:04:48,319
to be honest, there's a better direction
going forward. And I want to pursue what

794
01:04:46,559 --> 01:04:53,520
is being done to make sure that we get
the best code possible. And so that's

795
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:56,720
why the work is still underway. U we'll
be providing updates as we move forward,

796
01:04:55,359 --> 01:05:00,880
but all the things that we've been
talking about, all the concerns that

797
01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:04,079
were raised earlier are still valid and
are still being considered as we're

798
01:05:02,319 --> 01:05:07,440
looking through this. We also have a
climate element that we didn't have in

799
01:05:05,599 --> 01:05:11,599
2023 and so we're trying to align it
with that as well as water conservation

800
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:16,079
goals. So we have a lot more to do than
just pick it up and adopt it and so it's

801
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:19,359
it's more than we anticipated and it's
going to take a little time.

802
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:24,240
» It's really really good. I mean a lot of
the stuff all your stuff is incorporated

803
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:28,799
some element the the gist of my edits
were like placement move the natural

804
01:05:26,799 --> 01:05:34,000
stuff up move the stuff up and highlight
it. It's really, really, really good.

805
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:38,559
And I do think it's time to share some
version iteration with because it's

806
01:05:36,559 --> 01:05:40,720
going to take them time as well.
>> Yeah. As soon as we have a draft, we

807
01:05:40,319 --> 01:05:43,680
will.
>> Right.

808
01:05:41,359 --> 01:05:50,400
» Very good. Well, I'm glad that
>> I'm glad what Brad said. It we're the

809
01:05:48,319 --> 01:05:54,400
only two that have stuck around so long
that we know what it used to be.

810
01:05:52,970 --> 01:05:57,400
» [laughter]
>> Oh,

811
01:05:58,799 --> 01:06:04,000
» I
think also the very important thing is

812
01:06:02,319 --> 01:06:08,880
we've got some really good concepts,
we've got good ideas, but it's also

813
01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:11,839
making sure that uh anybody understands
when they look at the code what they

814
01:06:10,319 --> 01:06:15,839
need to do and all those kinds of
things. And that's where we're really

815
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:20,240
putting in a lot of effort. So, I'm I'm
hopeful we'll get a good product out of

816
01:06:17,839 --> 01:06:22,640
this better than the thousand words that
I usually produce to get one.

817
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:26,960
» Yeah.
>> We also made a decision this year to

818
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:30,400
move to a repeal and replace instead of
just going in surgically because what

819
01:06:28,319 --> 01:06:33,039
you saw was the surgical and there were
a lot of issues there. It wasn't clear

820
01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:36,799
what the applicants were supposed to
submit. It wasn't clear what the

821
01:06:34,799 --> 01:06:40,640
planner's objective criteria were and so
we need to go through. So, we've changed

822
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:44,160
direction and so it's going to take a
little more time to get what you want.

823
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:49,079
So, we're getting there. Yeah, it's
really really good council. Like really

824
01:06:49,359 --> 01:06:54,000
» thanks for your patience.
>> We've been working a long time.

825
01:06:53,119 --> 01:06:55,760
So I'm
>> Yeah,

826
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:59,319
» I'm glad that
>> I'm glad to

827
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:03,520
» Thank you.
>> Okay. Um

828
01:07:02,079 --> 01:07:07,119
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, council
member.

829
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:10,000
» Okay. Um these are additional
regulations that weren't in our work

830
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:13,280
plan, but we needed to attend to, and
you've already approved two of them. One

831
01:07:11,599 --> 01:07:17,200
was a building demolition code update
and one was a parking lot lighting code

832
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:22,079
update along the I5 corridor. And then
we came to you earlier this year and you

833
01:07:19,359 --> 01:07:25,119
gave us approval to pursue um getting
code in front of you for the battery

834
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:27,920
energy storage system. And we've been a
little bit delayed getting that started

835
01:07:26,559 --> 01:07:33,119
because of our other projects, but
that's slated for spring. We'll be on

836
01:07:30,079 --> 01:07:37,680
our work plan in 2027.
And these other planning projects that

837
01:07:35,119 --> 01:07:41,920
aren't related to comp plan and code, um
we've had two annexations. one that you

838
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:47,280
approved in March for 93rd Avenue and
Case Road and one that's coming to you

839
01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:51,359
in October for Black Lake Belmore
and then do you want to speak to the

840
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:56,160
brewery redevelopment plan?
>> Yeah, so that process is now restarting.

841
01:07:54,480 --> 01:08:00,240
We now have a consultant that's going to
be helping us with that

842
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:04,000
restarted the project. So that will be
also something that we'll be working on

843
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:10,240
as part of the community development uh
department in coordination with the

844
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:13,200
other departments and executives. So
>> the other line item is comprehensive

845
01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:17,120
plan monitoring and scoping. This is
related to our uh replacement of the

846
01:08:15,119 --> 01:08:20,480
permit database.
Right? Is that right?

847
01:08:18,480 --> 01:08:24,400
» Yeah. So we're replacing our whole
permit system uh and replacing with a

848
01:08:22,480 --> 01:08:28,880
brand new one. One very important
component of that is a reporting and

849
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:32,239
monitoring for all of our comprehensive
plan things. We want to be have an

850
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:36,319
ability to say, "Yeah, we're actually
doing what we said we wanted to do." Uh

851
01:08:34,400 --> 01:08:42,359
so that's what we're discussing there.
Our system is just reaching end of life

852
01:08:38,719 --> 01:08:42,359
and so we aren't

853
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:43,719
My text. My text. I can't hear you.

854
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:48,279
Hello. Hello.

855
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:55,840
I can hear you. Angela stand.
We I can't hear the city uh meeting

856
01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:58,840
though.
Okay.

857
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:13,400
I didn't have any Greg.

858
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:20,640
» Council members, I'm checking in with IT
staff, so hold on. I'm not quite sure

859
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:25,080
what's happening. Technical
difficulties.

860
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:25,080
» Thank you.

861
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:16,800
If you all can hear me still, Lance is
looking into it. Sounds like it might

862
01:12:14,880 --> 01:12:20,280
just be a few members. He'll get back to
us with the recommendation.

863
01:13:02,159 --> 01:13:10,440
Okay, if you can still hear me, Lance is
recommending we just reconnect,

864
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:10,440
disconnect, and re and relo. Oh yeah.

865
01:14:06,159 --> 01:14:09,400
I'm back.

866
01:14:22,480 --> 01:14:25,480
Council

867
01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:36,000
member Kathy, I can hear you. I don't
know if the room can hear us though.

868
01:14:34,320 --> 01:14:39,920
I'm not seeing any nodding heads or
shaking heads.

869
01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:42,920
I'll check back in with plants.
>> Right.

870
01:17:02,320 --> 01:17:08,239
you recommending Ann coming to do that
training. We all really really like her.

871
01:17:06,159 --> 01:17:12,760
Yeah,
>> I said it was a trigger for me when you

872
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:12,760
were like,

873
01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:18,360
» "Oh,
>> we're live."

874
01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:29,600
» You do that every time. Okay. So, thank
you, Peter. Thank you, Angela. Eric, I'm

875
01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:34,960
still not going to talk to you until
your agenda items up. We're looking for

876
01:17:32,560 --> 01:17:38,679
Joan.
You want to come with us?

877
01:17:42,080 --> 01:17:46,360
» I just got to go to bed.

878
01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:55,120
» Peter, we're right there with you.
>> Peter's like horizontal. We're almost

879
01:17:53,520 --> 01:18:00,320
done. Council, we're almost done.
Sharon, bring us home.

880
01:17:56,320 --> 01:18:05,040
» All right, we're almost there. Uh,
okay.

881
01:18:02,320 --> 01:18:08,960
» Page seven. Okay, we're almost there. I
think this is the last the last page.

882
01:18:06,960 --> 01:18:12,800
Um, other planning project. We talked
about the permit system transition.

883
01:18:10,640 --> 01:18:16,719
We're supporting that with a halftime
employee public engagement. We are using

884
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:22,480
social media campaigns for urban
forestry and housing. Um, and we are

885
01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:25,440
bringing up one of the below the line um
projects which is like project that we

886
01:18:24,320 --> 01:18:28,239
didn't weren't sure we could get to, but
we are. It's the citywide design

887
01:18:26,719 --> 01:18:30,640
guidelines that's coming to you
together. So, you're going to get a lot

888
01:18:29,360 --> 01:18:33,360
in the fall.
>> Um, and engaged.

889
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:37,040
» Yeah. And so we're doing that with a
very small team. Most things are on

890
01:18:35,679 --> 01:18:40,560
track, but some things are taking longer
than anticipated. And um there you have

891
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:45,120
it.
>> That's why staff come to you to share to

892
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:49,440
tell you where they're at. Right.
>> So this is a great update.

893
01:18:46,960 --> 01:18:53,440
» Right. And so let's
segue into the next.

894
01:18:51,120 --> 01:18:54,480
» Now we can all acknowledge Eric and say
hi.

895
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:57,280
» Hi Eric.
>> Hi Eric.

896
01:18:55,840 --> 01:19:03,840
» Good evening. Thank you for having me
here.

897
01:18:59,440 --> 01:19:08,320
Shall I share my screen or uh Sharon or
um do you break the internet? Share it.

898
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:10,800
» Why don't you share it, Eric? And then
you can um

899
01:19:09,199 --> 01:19:15,600
» let's see if that crashes anything.
Let's do it.

900
01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:20,000
» If not, we can do it. Yeah.
>> So, we're on to multifamily tax

901
01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:21,679
exemption program evaluation in your
pack.

902
01:19:21,360 --> 01:19:26,800
» Correct.
>> Preliminary findings.

903
01:19:24,320 --> 01:19:32,080
» Let me put this into
the full screen. Can everybody see my

904
01:19:29,520 --> 01:19:34,480
screen? It looks like it's loading.
>> Yes.

905
01:19:33,679 --> 01:19:37,920
» How's that look?
>> There you go. Perfect.

906
01:19:36,719 --> 01:19:41,199
» All right. Well, thank you again for
having me. It's an honor to be here and

907
01:19:39,920 --> 01:19:45,679
it's been a privilege to work with
Sharon and Brad on this project so far.

908
01:19:43,120 --> 01:19:49,520
So, uh, thank you again. So, the top of
the conversation is again, uh, the

909
01:19:47,360 --> 01:19:53,679
multif family tax exemption program that
the city of Tumbwater has currently on

910
01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:59,280
the books. what we've been doing is
doing an evaluation of how effective it

911
01:19:55,920 --> 01:20:02,239
has been so far. Um, and so I guess the
short answer is, and I'll get into the

912
01:20:00,560 --> 01:20:06,560
data and analysis here in a second, and
the short answer is it really depends on

913
01:20:04,560 --> 01:20:12,080
what you're trying to achieve with the
program. So the next slide is this just

914
01:20:09,679 --> 01:20:17,920
gives you an overview of the districts
where the multif family tax exemption

915
01:20:14,159 --> 01:20:21,120
currently uh is allowed to work and can
be given to projects that are in these

916
01:20:19,520 --> 01:20:24,800
areas. So, we have the Little Rock Road
sub area, we have the Tumbl Water Town

917
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:28,640
Center, we have the Capitol Boulevard
corridor, and we have the Brewery

918
01:20:26,560 --> 01:20:33,440
District. Those are the four main areas.
Um, now the the 8-year program that

919
01:20:31,520 --> 01:20:38,880
currently exists doesn't work in all of
these uh geographic areas, but the

920
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:42,760
12-year does. The 12-year can apply to
all four of these districts.

921
01:20:43,199 --> 01:20:50,080
Um, this gives you a snapshot of where
the most recent multif family

922
01:20:47,679 --> 01:20:54,640
development has been in the city. Um, so
this is looking at both MFTTE projects.

923
01:20:53,120 --> 01:20:58,960
Sorry, John. Yes.
>> Um,

924
01:20:56,320 --> 01:21:02,480
could you say why the 8-year doesn't
work.

925
01:21:00,640 --> 01:21:06,640
» Um, I didn't say why. I'm not I haven't
said why it doesn't work.

926
01:21:04,239 --> 01:21:06,640
» Okay.

927
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:13,840
district.
>> What's that?

928
01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:19,040
» Uh I think Eric Eric meant that the
8-year only applies in two districts,

929
01:21:17,280 --> 01:21:20,320
the the Bury District and the Capitol
corridor.

930
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:25,440
» Correct.
>> It doesn't apply or it isn't an option

931
01:21:23,120 --> 01:21:27,600
available in the other two.
>> Exactly.

932
01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:29,920
» I think it was a word choice.
>> Yep. My apologies.

933
01:21:29,199 --> 01:21:36,640
» Thank you.
>> Yeah.

934
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:41,280
Uh so here again is a map of the again
the blue areas are the districts where

935
01:21:38,719 --> 01:21:46,480
MFTTE currently applies and then we're
looking at MFTTE multif family tax

936
01:21:43,600 --> 01:21:52,000
exemption projects versus developments
multif family housing developments that

937
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:56,400
have been built since 2017 in the city
that did not take advantage or did not

938
01:21:54,239 --> 01:22:01,520
receive a multif family tax exemption.
Um so as you can see here a lot of this

939
01:21:59,440 --> 01:22:06,080
development has been happening over here
which was on remind me what Little Rock

940
01:22:03,440 --> 01:22:10,560
Road sub area. So the majority of MFTTE
projects so far to date have been

941
01:22:08,719 --> 01:22:16,560
concentrated in the Little Rock Road sub
area um with some smatterings in up up

942
01:22:14,159 --> 01:22:21,920
north in the Brewery District um and a
little bit in um uh the Capitol

943
01:22:19,360 --> 01:22:25,840
Boulevard corridor. There has been no uh
development in the um Twater Town Center

944
01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:31,679
to date that received a multif family
tax exemption. Um the green dots again

945
01:22:28,719 --> 01:22:35,920
are the non multif family tax exemption
projects. So projects mult normal multif

946
01:22:34,159 --> 01:22:40,880
family developments that have popped up
in the city since 2017. And you can see

947
01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:46,239
they're a bit concentrated up into the
northwest, a little bit in in the C

948
01:22:43,840 --> 01:22:53,639
broad Capitol Boulevard corridor area,
and a little bit near uh the Little Rock

949
01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:53,639
Road sub area, but not directly in it.

950
01:22:55,199 --> 01:23:01,199
In terms of unit production, again, it's
mostly been concentrated again in the

951
01:22:59,600 --> 01:23:06,000
Little Rock Road sub area. So, this is
just a snapshot of the units. So up top

952
01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:09,520
you'll see the 8 and 12 year options in
the brewy district and the capital

953
01:23:07,440 --> 01:23:13,280
corridor and these are the total number
of units and the total number of

954
01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:17,920
projects that have been developed using
multif family tax exemption in in those

955
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:24,080
two districts. And then the 12-year
option only with a 20% affordable set

956
01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:29,120
aside. So 20% of the units must be deed
restricted affordable. um in the Little

957
01:23:27,199 --> 01:23:34,560
Rock Road sub area have been there's
been three projects and about 562 units

958
01:23:31,920 --> 01:23:40,400
to date. Um some of those are market
rate units again and uh again 20% of

959
01:23:38,080 --> 01:23:43,400
those are have been deeed restricted as
affordable.

960
01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:50,320
So this here is just a a general
overview of how affordable housing

961
01:23:49,120 --> 01:23:54,639
typically works. I thought it'd be
helpful to sort of just

962
01:23:52,639 --> 01:23:59,120
give the give the council a little bit
of a refresher on how um affordable

963
01:23:56,719 --> 01:24:03,840
housing typically works. So, Thirstston
County area median income is set by the

964
01:24:01,360 --> 01:24:08,320
US Department of uh housing and urban
development. Currently, it is at

965
01:24:06,000 --> 01:24:13,360
$122,800
per year in income for a fourperson

966
01:24:10,719 --> 01:24:19,280
household. Now, HUD then breaks that
down based on household size and unit

967
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:24,719
type. So you can see in this top um
table that we have the the percent of

968
01:24:22,400 --> 01:24:29,199
the area median income. So 100% would be
100% of the area median income and going

969
01:24:26,719 --> 01:24:32,480
down to 30%. And then you can see
depending on the household size, so one

970
01:24:31,040 --> 01:24:38,560
person, two person, three person, four
person, etc. And the unit type, a studio

971
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:44,480
one, two, threebedroom unit, you're
going to get different amounts um of

972
01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:48,320
area income that qualify
for those units. And then going from

973
01:24:46,480 --> 01:24:54,560
there, how we determine affordable
rents, we take uh a 30% of that income

974
01:24:52,080 --> 01:24:59,199
which is considered affordable by the US
Department of Housing Preser Housing and

975
01:24:56,960 --> 01:25:05,040
Urban Development um and divide that by
12 and that gives you the monthly rent

976
01:25:02,080 --> 01:25:10,239
for that unit type and that household
size. So as you can see here, you have a

977
01:25:06,719 --> 01:25:14,880
one person household in a studio at at
100% AMI. The most they could pay in

978
01:25:12,560 --> 01:25:19,960
rent would be $2,150
per month, for example. That's the most

979
01:25:16,560 --> 01:25:19,960
they could pay.

980
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:26,560
» Next slide.
Now, here is some data analysis we did.

981
01:25:24,159 --> 01:25:28,880
This we this we looked at market rents
currently.

982
01:25:27,600 --> 01:25:31,920
» Can you
>> Yeah, can we hold on one second?

983
01:25:30,719 --> 01:25:36,960
Brandon,
>> can you go back to that?

984
01:25:34,239 --> 01:25:41,760
» Yeah. because the maximum you're saying
that they

985
01:25:38,719 --> 01:25:48,000
they can pay up to $2,150
a month for one person for this.

986
01:25:45,040 --> 01:25:53,840
» Yes. If they are if the unit is deed
restricted to 100% of the area median

987
01:25:50,800 --> 01:26:00,800
income. So, for example, in the MFTTE
program, now your current eight um your

988
01:25:58,000 --> 01:26:06,560
current 12-year program requires between
80% and 115% of the area immediate

989
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:11,199
income in terms of rent. So, the rent
could be as low as 7, for example, for

990
01:26:08,719 --> 01:26:19,040
one person's studio. It could be as low
as 1720 a month or could be even above

991
01:26:15,600 --> 01:26:24,400
that 2,150 a month if they can if the
market can support that, of course.

992
01:26:22,800 --> 01:26:30,800
Yes, Jim.
>> Is there is there anybody anywhere

993
01:26:28,480 --> 01:26:36,960
um in
these local cities or county or the

994
01:26:35,040 --> 01:26:43,280
whole country? Anybody talking about
changes in any of this stuff that the

995
01:26:39,120 --> 01:26:48,320
government has set as standards or 30%
or 80% or this or that because this is

996
01:26:46,000 --> 01:26:54,320
not this doesn't even make sense for
today anymore. And so I'm just wondering

997
01:26:52,080 --> 01:26:59,360
is there any
is there any push anywhere that things

998
01:26:56,639 --> 01:27:02,880
like this need could need to be adjusted
or um

999
01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:08,719
» there have been some efforts to do for
example set you know a lower percentage

1000
01:27:06,159 --> 01:27:13,520
of income to as considered affordable.
So there's been some efforts to go below

1001
01:27:10,400 --> 01:27:16,639
30% say 20% of income. There's been some
efforts on that front. Nothing has gone

1002
01:27:15,040 --> 01:27:21,520
by you know past Congress or anything
like that. Um and then on you know on

1003
01:27:19,040 --> 01:27:26,800
the in terms of the AMIs you know part
of the challenge has been since for

1004
01:27:23,360 --> 01:27:32,400
example the financial crisis of 2008 you
we've actually seen median incomes go up

1005
01:27:29,760 --> 01:27:37,280
everywhere across the country. So you if
you look at you even Tumb water back in

1006
01:27:34,560 --> 01:27:40,800
2010 you would see like a steady
progression of area median income

1007
01:27:39,360 --> 01:27:45,040
continue to grow because people's
incomes have actually continued to rise.

1008
01:27:42,960 --> 01:27:48,800
Um, now how that is counted. There's
been some debate about whether we should

1009
01:27:46,480 --> 01:27:53,760
count certain areas. For example, HUD
oftentimes brings in other areas, not

1010
01:27:51,920 --> 01:27:57,920
just county, but also sometimes brings
in other metropolitan areas into the mix

1011
01:27:56,000 --> 01:28:02,080
or other jurisdictions with into the mix
that maybe sometimes drives up or drives

1012
01:27:59,920 --> 01:28:06,159
down the area mean income. But generally
speaking, there has not been any efforts

1013
01:28:03,520 --> 01:28:08,960
to actually change how AMI is calculated
um by the Department of Housing and

1014
01:28:07,760 --> 01:28:15,520
Urban Development.
>> Yeah. Because Yeah. the median income

1015
01:28:12,560 --> 01:28:20,400
might be going up, but the poverty level
is also going up. And so those two

1016
01:28:18,320 --> 01:28:26,400
things are are getting farther and
farther apart. And I just wonder how as

1017
01:28:23,280 --> 01:28:31,920
as a [clears throat] city or coming
together with our constituents, no, our

1018
01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:36,480
I mean our leaders here in Thirstston
County or whatever.

1019
01:28:33,920 --> 01:28:40,880
I think some adjustments need to be made
or we just have a lot of people that

1020
01:28:38,480 --> 01:28:44,080
aren't going to make it because I know
lots of people who can't pay that kind

1021
01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:50,000
of rent.
>> Sure. Yeah.

1022
01:28:45,920 --> 01:28:55,520
» It can it concerns me that uh and
conversations about doing big things can

1023
01:28:53,040 --> 01:28:58,880
start right here in a seven member
council.

1024
01:28:57,600 --> 01:29:01,440
» Thank you.
>> Thank you.

1025
01:28:59,920 --> 01:29:04,080
» Eric, before you consider Thank you,
Joan. Eric, before you continue, Brandon

1026
01:29:03,120 --> 01:29:09,920
had something.
>> Okay. Sorry about that. We can't see.

1027
01:29:05,360 --> 01:29:16,159
» I don't know. Do you in particular, but
what mechanisms or

1028
01:29:14,159 --> 01:29:20,159
areas are we able to go ahead and choose
this on? Yes, this to me is

1029
01:29:18,560 --> 01:29:25,360
» we don't change the definition. You
choose the percentage. Right. Council

1030
01:29:21,920 --> 01:29:28,000
chose 80 to 150. You can choose the
percentage. We don't change the federal

1031
01:29:27,040 --> 01:29:29,199
definition.
>> Okay.

1032
01:29:28,320 --> 01:29:34,239
» Correct.
You could say on MF you could go down to

1033
01:29:31,520 --> 01:29:37,280
as low as 50% AMI,
>> but that doesn't necessarily mean a

1034
01:29:35,679 --> 01:29:40,639
developer is going to build that
project, right? And that's the what

1035
01:29:38,800 --> 01:29:43,840
we'll get into here in a second, right?
Setting a lower set standard doesn't

1036
01:29:42,480 --> 01:29:48,480
necessarily mean that those projects
will get built.

1037
01:29:46,880 --> 01:29:54,080
» I understand that to me though, it's
just it's disgusting. $2,150

1038
01:29:51,760 --> 01:29:58,560
for one person for a studio. That is not
affordable. That's not a team. So

1039
01:29:57,520 --> 01:30:02,719
» train.
>> That's an example, right?

1040
01:30:01,679 --> 01:30:06,639
» We're not.
>> Yeah.

1041
01:30:04,719 --> 01:30:10,000
» Yeah. Well,
>> yeah. It's very difficult. But I

1042
01:30:08,719 --> 01:30:14,320
understand what you're saying, but it's
very difficult for anybody to get to

1043
01:30:12,719 --> 01:30:18,239
those numbers as a single person to
spend 2,100,

1044
01:30:15,920 --> 01:30:21,600
» right? It's based on what you're making
that, right? So if you're not making

1045
01:30:19,760 --> 01:30:25,840
that, then this is not. So thank you.
just

1046
01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:30,719
» correct.
>> Yep. And what I'll show in a minute is

1047
01:30:27,440 --> 01:30:34,400
that in reality people in Tumb Water,
most people in Tumb are not paying that

1048
01:30:32,239 --> 01:30:38,719
in rent. So I'll I'll demonstrate that
here in a second. Um so what we did here

1049
01:30:37,040 --> 01:30:44,000
was looked at this is what we did. We
pulled data on what current rents are in

1050
01:30:41,360 --> 01:30:49,840
Tumb Water, right? So you'll see here in
the green bar chart, those are the

1051
01:30:47,520 --> 01:30:54,719
current observed rents,
average rents for new construction

1052
01:30:52,639 --> 01:31:01,920
multif family projects built between
2020 and 2026, so this year. Um, and

1053
01:30:58,400 --> 01:31:07,360
current rents on average across the city
range between a studio and a

1054
01:31:03,679 --> 01:31:13,600
three-bedroom unit from 71% of the AMI,
so 1500 about $1,500 a month in rent to

1055
01:31:10,639 --> 01:31:20,480
81% AMI for a three-bedroom, which would
be about 20 nearly $2,500 a month in

1056
01:31:16,480 --> 01:31:25,360
rent. So, as you can see, um, we, you
know, the the rent that I showed in the

1057
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:29,760
previous chart, that 2150 isn't actually
a rent that's being, you know, common

1058
01:31:27,199 --> 01:31:35,120
rent in in the city. The common rent is
roughly between that 60 and 80% AMI

1059
01:31:33,360 --> 01:31:39,360
range. So, that is what we're currently
observing as the market rate rents. And

1060
01:31:37,440 --> 01:31:44,719
the orange chart demonstrates that. So,
the rents affordable at 100% of the area

1061
01:31:42,320 --> 01:31:49,520
mean income would have to be at 200
2,150. and that would be above what

1062
01:31:47,440 --> 01:31:55,120
we've observed in terms of the data. So
that's not really what rents, you know,

1063
01:31:51,199 --> 01:31:59,520
are are um happening in in or achievable
rents that are being observed in in the

1064
01:31:57,040 --> 01:32:04,480
city right now. So So the main point
here is that the actual rents uh are

1065
01:32:01,920 --> 01:32:10,000
below what we would say as 100% of the
area income and are actually below what

1066
01:32:06,480 --> 01:32:14,880
you're saying is the 12-year program. So
it actually most of the time they're

1067
01:32:11,679 --> 01:32:19,800
below the 80 to 115% that the multif
family tax exemption currently requires

1068
01:32:22,880 --> 01:32:31,440
and here is just demonstrating that on
same thing. So market rents are below

1069
01:32:27,040 --> 01:32:37,840
the 12-year MFT AMI range right now. So,
um, again, the current new construction

1070
01:32:33,440 --> 01:32:42,920
average rents are 72% to about 77% in
terms of area median income in terms of

1071
01:32:39,920 --> 01:32:42,920
rent.

1072
01:32:46,480 --> 01:32:52,320
One point I'd like to make and I think
it's really critical to to highlight

1073
01:32:50,239 --> 01:32:57,679
this point in the data is we also looked
at older properties um in in Tumbwater

1074
01:32:55,280 --> 01:33:03,120
and what we observed is actually the
rents you know that you all just spoke

1075
01:32:59,760 --> 01:33:07,199
to trying to get to like 50 to 60% AMI
for example are actually found in what

1076
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:11,440
we call naturally occurring affordable
housing. And so naturally occurring

1077
01:33:08,880 --> 01:33:16,239
affordable housing are older properties
that simply can't command high rents

1078
01:33:14,000 --> 01:33:20,080
because they lack some of the amenities
that new construction projects often

1079
01:33:18,080 --> 01:33:23,760
provide or they're they some you know
they're older properties that are just

1080
01:33:21,360 --> 01:33:29,040
less attractive to a lot of uh
individuals or families. And so actually

1081
01:33:25,440 --> 01:33:32,480
the rents that they can charge are below
what most new construction multif family

1082
01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:38,080
properties are. And so you actually have
a good bit of supply right now.

1083
01:33:36,400 --> 01:33:42,239
» Yeah.
Eric, thank you. Hold on a second. And

1084
01:33:39,679 --> 01:33:47,280
then Megan has as I'm listening to Eric,
I'm literally thinking home energy

1085
01:33:43,760 --> 01:33:50,880
score. How would that impact
these homes that Megan? Go ahead.

1086
01:33:50,080 --> 01:33:56,239
» Home energy.
>> I'm looking at this chart.

1087
01:33:54,000 --> 01:34:00,159
» Uh, a question about the chart that
you're sharing right now.

1088
01:33:58,000 --> 01:34:04,719
» Uh, are you
saying that homes built in the 1980s are

1089
01:34:02,800 --> 01:34:09,360
available for rent in our community for
$788 a month?

1090
01:34:07,040 --> 01:34:12,800
Um, yes, there are a few properties.
Part of the challenge is there are only

1091
01:34:10,800 --> 01:34:17,120
a handful of actually properties that
still exist in the city that were built

1092
01:34:14,880 --> 01:34:21,440
in the 1980s. And of those that do
exist, the rents are quite low because

1093
01:34:19,440 --> 01:34:26,400
the quality of the product can simply
not command high rents. So those those

1094
01:34:24,800 --> 01:34:30,719
buildings may actually be in need of
some repair. Um, they may be located in

1095
01:34:28,960 --> 01:34:34,080
less desirable neighborhoods for
compared to what other market projects

1096
01:34:32,239 --> 01:34:38,400
have been built. And so actually the
rents that they can achieve on those on

1097
01:34:35,840 --> 01:34:42,239
those units, the owner or the developer
um are quite low and they don't need to

1098
01:34:40,639 --> 01:34:45,360
be high because they don't have any debt
for example sitting on those properties.

1099
01:34:43,679 --> 01:34:48,560
They don't need to cover debt a lot of
times. And so you have what we call

1100
01:34:47,199 --> 01:34:54,360
again naturally occurring affordable
housing happening in the city that are

1101
01:34:50,560 --> 01:34:54,360
just in older properties.

1102
01:34:54,400 --> 01:35:01,800
» Multifamily are these multif family in
these are all multif family units.

1103
01:35:02,800 --> 01:35:07,400
And again, there's not a large supply.

1104
01:35:08,400 --> 01:35:14,480
» Yes. Again, these are probably legacy
renters who have been there for decades

1105
01:35:12,800 --> 01:35:19,520
and maybe they're, you know, live in
the, you know, in a unit that's next

1106
01:35:16,639 --> 01:35:22,719
door adjacent to, you know, a a land
owner and they've been stay they've been

1107
01:35:21,679 --> 01:35:27,199
there a long time and this is the
observed rent that's been been in place.

1108
01:35:24,480 --> 01:35:33,480
Um, I obviously don't know the ins and
outs of those individual units, but I'm

1109
01:35:29,120 --> 01:35:33,480
just speculating on what they may be.

1110
01:35:34,159 --> 01:35:39,679
So, the whole point here is that you
actually have a good bit of supply of

1111
01:35:37,040 --> 01:35:43,920
affordable housing in some capacity. And
on the one hand, you're incentivizing

1112
01:35:41,679 --> 01:35:48,000
the construction of new trying to
incentivize the construction of new

1113
01:35:45,280 --> 01:35:51,440
housing, but the existing affordable
units that may be existing in your

1114
01:35:49,440 --> 01:35:54,920
community are receiving no incentive to
actually stay affordable.

1115
01:35:55,520 --> 01:36:03,280
One more follow-up question. This
doesn't quantify like how much supply is

1116
01:36:01,280 --> 01:36:07,280
affordable. I'm very curious because I
see the dollar amounts, but I don't

1117
01:36:04,480 --> 01:36:10,800
know. Does this represent like two units
or 200 units?

1118
01:36:09,600 --> 01:36:14,400
» Good question. We can certainly come
back to you and provide the information

1119
01:36:12,239 --> 01:36:17,280
at our next uh council hearing. We we
didn't provide the full number. That

1120
01:36:15,679 --> 01:36:22,960
would have been a good data point to
include. Thanks.

1121
01:36:20,320 --> 01:36:26,480
» So, this isn't about homes. talking
about houses. This is just all

1122
01:36:25,280 --> 01:36:29,360
multifamily.
>> This is all multif family because that's

1123
01:36:27,679 --> 01:36:35,080
where the tax exemption applies to just
multif family tax exemption and it only

1124
01:36:31,040 --> 01:36:35,080
applies to multif family developments.

1125
01:36:36,000 --> 01:36:44,719
» So this is just one category of
affordability or not affordability.

1126
01:36:42,880 --> 01:36:49,760
» It's one category of housing type.
Correct. So but multif family also could

1127
01:36:46,880 --> 01:36:56,320
be as small as a forplex right and go up
to 100 units. So it can it covers a v

1128
01:36:52,320 --> 01:37:00,639
wide range of housing um types
>> but it's not people living in single

1129
01:36:59,360 --> 01:37:04,400
houses or
>> it is not single family homes

1130
01:37:02,320 --> 01:37:10,080
» group something like that.
>> Yeah a duplex or triplex could count

1131
01:37:06,800 --> 01:37:13,080
would count um as a multif family
>> project.

1132
01:37:14,080 --> 01:37:19,040
Uh next slide is just giving you a
little overview about our approach to

1133
01:37:17,840 --> 01:37:22,320
our analysis. So this is our
methodology. um we call it a performer.

1134
01:37:21,040 --> 01:37:26,480
It's a very technical term but really it
is just like a financial analysis. What

1135
01:37:23,840 --> 01:37:30,719
we're doing is taking the costs what it
costs to build a building a new multif

1136
01:37:28,639 --> 01:37:34,560
family building and looking at the
revenues that that project could

1137
01:37:32,400 --> 01:37:39,760
achieve. So basically taking again those
market rents that we've observed in the

1138
01:37:36,159 --> 01:37:44,639
data and comparing what how much of the
revenue can cover the costs and how much

1139
01:37:42,560 --> 01:37:48,560
of the land budget exists. So what we're
solving for is land because in order to

1140
01:37:46,639 --> 01:37:54,159
build any multif family housing you need
to identify a parcel of land to be for

1141
01:37:50,719 --> 01:38:00,560
the project to be built on. And so if
the land budget exceeds what we observe

1142
01:37:56,560 --> 01:38:05,040
as the median or typical land price then
we determine and based on the revenues

1143
01:38:02,560 --> 01:38:09,360
and costs we can identify whether a
project is financially feasible to do.

1144
01:38:07,520 --> 01:38:13,840
If the land budget is too small, what
could the project can afford compared to

1145
01:38:11,199 --> 01:38:16,719
what we observe as the typical land cost
that we have a little gap and you'll see

1146
01:38:15,280 --> 01:38:20,960
that in the bottom chart and we call
what we there's a little gap between the

1147
01:38:18,560 --> 01:38:24,800
land cost and the land budget. Uh that
gap means that the project's going to

1148
01:38:23,199 --> 01:38:28,480
need some subsidy probably of some kind
public subsidies, grants, other programs

1149
01:38:26,800 --> 01:38:32,040
to help make sure that project is
financially feasible.

1150
01:38:35,840 --> 01:38:40,400
As part of that this analysis, we also
looked at what we call prototypes. So we

1151
01:38:39,199 --> 01:38:43,679
looked at a couple different housing
types that would qualify for the multif

1152
01:38:42,159 --> 01:38:47,600
family tax exemption. So we have town
homes.

1153
01:38:45,280 --> 01:38:51,280
On the left we have threetory woodframe,
you know, small lot we call small lot.

1154
01:38:49,360 --> 01:38:55,360
So this would be like a, you know, a 40
to 50 unit building with surface parking

1155
01:38:53,360 --> 01:38:59,520
as you can see in the image. And on the
right we have a threetory wood frame uh

1156
01:38:57,600 --> 01:39:03,600
that has something more like a tuck
under or a large lot. Sorry, a large

1157
01:39:01,440 --> 01:39:08,400
lot. So, a bigger site um that can
accommodate maybe up to 100 units. And

1158
01:39:06,080 --> 01:39:15,360
then on the bottom one, we have a
fivetory woodframe um building. This is

1159
01:39:11,360 --> 01:39:19,199
going to be your um uh your highest
density type of multif family housing.

1160
01:39:17,679 --> 01:39:22,080
So, it's going to be could be surface
parked or it could have what we call

1161
01:39:20,719 --> 01:39:25,119
tuck under parking where there's a
little bit of parking that goes

1162
01:39:23,119 --> 01:39:28,639
underneath the building. Um and that
would be the highest highest density um

1163
01:39:27,119 --> 01:39:32,800
type of multif family housing we
analyzed.

1164
01:39:30,880 --> 01:39:36,960
Eric, for just a moment, all of these
examples are are actually in Tumblr

1165
01:39:34,800 --> 01:39:40,800
water. The town homes are up on top of
Tumblr Hill. The wood frame is the North

1166
01:39:39,520 --> 01:39:45,360
Street Apartments.
>> Uh and then the other two examples are

1167
01:39:43,119 --> 01:39:48,960
Kingswood and Rockwell over in Little
Rock.

1168
01:39:47,280 --> 01:39:51,960
» Yeah, thank you, Brad. Appreciate that.
Helpful.

1169
01:39:53,920 --> 01:40:01,199
» Next slide. So this is really what the
gist of our analysis is is we're looking

1170
01:39:58,639 --> 01:40:04,880
at market rate development. Okay. And
we're looking at those different town

1171
01:40:02,560 --> 01:40:10,159
homes and trying again trying to solve
for land. So what we observed in the

1172
01:40:07,520 --> 01:40:15,600
data is that most vacant underutilized
land comes around somewhere between 12

1173
01:40:13,280 --> 01:40:19,679
and $21 per square foot. That's how much
it costs to acquire what we call vacant

1174
01:40:18,000 --> 01:40:23,840
or under utilized land. This is going to
be a parcel that's been sitting there.

1175
01:40:21,679 --> 01:40:30,800
Hasn't really been used for much. it's
maybe dirt or maybe there is a small

1176
01:40:27,520 --> 01:40:35,520
building next to a large empty lot and
that would be something we consider

1177
01:40:31,920 --> 01:40:39,679
underutilized. It isn't built out. Um so
what we've observed is that most land

1178
01:40:37,520 --> 01:40:47,119
costs at least for that type. So vacant
or underly utilized land is around $21

1179
01:40:42,560 --> 01:40:51,199
to $12 a square foot um or sorry $13
roughly $14 a square foot. And then we

1180
01:40:49,280 --> 01:40:55,679
also looked at well what is the median
price of land in Twater? So that's that

1181
01:40:53,520 --> 01:41:01,679
black line you see up top roughly about
40 48 $49. Um that tells us where

1182
01:40:59,760 --> 01:41:05,840
roughly the middle in the market is.
What is land transacting for currently?

1183
01:41:04,320 --> 01:41:10,239
Um and that we're and what we've
observed is that's roughly around $49

1184
01:41:07,760 --> 01:41:13,840
per square foot. Now going again going
back to the prototypes, the types of

1185
01:41:11,840 --> 01:41:17,600
housing we analyzed in our approach. So
town homes, threetory wood frame, the

1186
01:41:15,520 --> 01:41:22,560
threetory foot frame with a larger lot,
small lot and then the fivetory wood

1187
01:41:19,440 --> 01:41:27,840
frame. You can see here the orange bars
are telling us based on market rate

1188
01:41:25,360 --> 01:41:33,040
rents that we've observed in the data.
This is how much land per square foot

1189
01:41:30,880 --> 01:41:37,119
these types of buildings can achieve can
afford.

1190
01:41:34,800 --> 01:41:44,159
So, as you can see, only the threetory
wood frame, the $14 uh per square foot

1191
01:41:41,199 --> 01:41:48,960
can only is the only prototype, only one
that can actually be built on

1192
01:41:46,960 --> 01:41:53,840
potentially if they're able to find a a
piece of land that costs $14 per square

1193
01:41:50,880 --> 01:41:58,400
foot. The other ones do fall short. They
do they cannot pay the price of land.

1194
01:41:56,880 --> 01:42:02,159
So, that means they're infeasible. They
cannot be built. And again, these are

1195
01:42:00,560 --> 01:42:06,480
projects where there is no multif family
tax exemption, right? there's just like

1196
01:42:04,320 --> 01:42:11,199
they're paying their property taxes.
They're trying to build a a new multif

1197
01:42:08,400 --> 01:42:14,480
family building, but unfortunately they
are financially infeasible. And this is

1198
01:42:12,960 --> 01:42:19,040
part of the reason why I think as I
showed you in the map earlier of where

1199
01:42:16,960 --> 01:42:22,800
the developments have occurred, you
don't see very much multif family

1200
01:42:20,560 --> 01:42:28,199
development that is not taxexempt being
built in the city currently, at least

1201
01:42:24,880 --> 01:42:28,199
since 2020.

1202
01:42:29,199 --> 01:42:37,760
Next slide. Now, if we apply the 8-year
multif family tax exemption to those uh

1203
01:42:35,360 --> 01:42:43,600
five different prototypes of housing of
multif family housing, you can see

1204
01:42:39,840 --> 01:42:47,119
there's a it's a big change. So, now
going from the orange bars from the

1205
01:42:45,440 --> 01:42:52,639
previous slide to the now green bars,
you can see most of those housing types

1206
01:42:49,600 --> 01:42:59,119
can now afford most of the vacant and
underutilized uh land that may exist in

1207
01:42:56,320 --> 01:43:04,480
the city. So they can, for example, town
homes can now achieve about $23 per

1208
01:43:01,119 --> 01:43:09,520
square feet in land. The threetory wood
frame, both large and small, can get 29

1209
01:43:06,880 --> 01:43:13,840
between 29 and $19 per square foot in
terms of the cost of land. The only one

1210
01:43:11,840 --> 01:43:18,639
that has a negative land budget is the
fivetory, the higher density housing

1211
01:43:16,639 --> 01:43:23,040
type. Part of the reason for that is
that is a much more expensive. It costs

1212
01:43:20,639 --> 01:43:28,080
much more to build that housing type.
And so given what we've observed in

1213
01:43:25,760 --> 01:43:33,520
market rents, even with the tax
exemption, that project wouldn't be

1214
01:43:31,199 --> 01:43:36,880
built with the 8-year program. And
that's actually what we've observed.

1215
01:43:35,040 --> 01:43:39,440
We've seen that most of the multif
family housing development that's been

1216
01:43:38,080 --> 01:43:44,159
built in Tumb Water, at least since
2017, has mostly been your threetory

1217
01:43:42,639 --> 01:43:49,840
woodframe
um uh developments, uh three or fourtory

1218
01:43:48,080 --> 01:43:52,960
woodframe developments with mostly
surface parking. And I think that we

1219
01:43:51,440 --> 01:43:57,679
showed you in the in the sides as well
as some town homes for example as well.

1220
01:43:55,199 --> 01:44:02,239
Um,
>> any questions on this?

1221
01:43:59,280 --> 01:44:08,560
» I I I have a question. So, how how many
take one of these what's what is the

1222
01:44:06,080 --> 01:44:12,560
rent going to be?
>> So, we're taking that average rent.

1223
01:44:11,600 --> 01:44:16,320
» Pardon?
>> As part of our analysis, we're taking

1224
01:44:14,000 --> 01:44:18,560
that average rent that I showed earlier.
>> Okay.

1225
01:44:17,199 --> 01:44:23,440
» Let me go back to the slide just really
quick so I can just give you that.

1226
01:44:20,800 --> 01:44:28,480
So this see these green bars here. We
took average rents and applied it to the

1227
01:44:26,239 --> 01:44:31,520
unit types within the prototypes that we
built that we designed here for the

1228
01:44:30,400 --> 01:44:35,679
analysis.
>> And that gives us roughly what the all

1229
01:44:34,159 --> 01:44:42,159
the revenue that a project could
generate depending on the size versus

1230
01:44:38,000 --> 01:44:48,000
the cost of building that project
>> and not paying taxes for 12 years.

1231
01:44:45,440 --> 01:44:52,000
Well, so the first slide here shows
they're still paying taxes and which

1232
01:44:50,000 --> 01:44:56,719
shows that they're in feasible. The next
slide says, okay, the green bars,

1233
01:44:54,639 --> 01:45:00,080
they're not paying taxes for eight years
and now they can actually afford to

1234
01:44:58,800 --> 01:45:04,560
acquire more land and actually
potentially are feasible if they were

1235
01:45:02,000 --> 01:45:08,480
able to acquire or able to find land at
that price.

1236
01:45:06,480 --> 01:45:11,679
» I thought we were talking only about 12
year.

1237
01:45:09,360 --> 01:45:16,000
» This is the eight-year right now. This
is just giving you an example of if the

1238
01:45:13,119 --> 01:45:20,639
eight year were applied to these
different housing types, how are they

1239
01:45:18,639 --> 01:45:26,000
feasible? Okay.
>> And do we qualify for the 8-year here?

1240
01:45:23,679 --> 01:45:31,920
» Uh you have two districts that currently
offer the 8-year um as an option.

1241
01:45:30,800 --> 01:45:36,560
» And if it was 12,
>> Eric, the 8-year,

1242
01:45:34,560 --> 01:45:41,360
sorry, the 8year does not have the
affordable housing option. We don't It's

1243
01:45:39,119 --> 01:45:45,360
just production. Yeah. You don't you
don't have to you don't have to

1244
01:45:43,360 --> 01:45:48,159
designate anything affordable living,
right? Affordable.

1245
01:45:46,960 --> 01:45:51,159
» Yeah.
>> That's

1246
01:45:51,440 --> 01:45:58,239
because it's quite a thing. If you look
at the one of the charts that you sent

1247
01:45:55,600 --> 01:46:07,040
us or that we we saw, you know, there
was 600 and some units and

1248
01:46:03,679 --> 01:46:12,560
110 of them were affordable. I mean,
that seems to be the ratio. That's

1249
01:46:09,600 --> 01:46:16,800
that's bad. I mean, from my point of
view, but uh

1250
01:46:15,119 --> 01:46:20,080
» well, I like to Joan, I like to
challenge that because what I what I

1251
01:46:18,239 --> 01:46:25,840
showed you earlier is actually market
rents are at those same rents. What

1252
01:46:23,679 --> 01:46:30,159
you're saying is affordable as in part
of MFT program. You're saying it's

1253
01:46:27,440 --> 01:46:36,000
between 80 and 115%. But actually what
the market has been delivering in

1254
01:46:31,760 --> 01:46:41,679
Tumbwater since since uh 2020 has been
rents that are below that at 77 to 72%

1255
01:46:39,760 --> 01:46:45,520
AMI.
So you're actually getting

1256
01:46:42,960 --> 01:46:50,159
» I'm gonna jump in for a second. Eric,
I'm gonna jump in. Thank you Joan. One

1257
01:46:48,159 --> 01:46:55,760
um we don't need to challenge council.
So I'd ask that language next time.

1258
01:46:53,600 --> 01:46:59,600
» And then also I'm just noting the time.
There's a lag on technology. So, Eric,

1259
01:46:57,840 --> 01:47:02,639
you're talking over us because there's a
lag.

1260
01:47:00,719 --> 01:47:08,080
» Um, it is almost 8 o'clock. This was
just supposed to be a heads up to all of

1261
01:47:05,360 --> 01:47:12,480
you. So, I think I'm getting confused by
Eric's presentation right now. So, I

1262
01:47:10,159 --> 01:47:16,719
would like us to wrap this up, go to the
key takeaways and next steps and have

1263
01:47:14,480 --> 01:47:20,159
council follow up with additional
questions because there is not enough

1264
01:47:18,480 --> 01:47:24,400
time tonight to go over this and I have
more questions now than I did before

1265
01:47:22,239 --> 01:47:30,639
this started. So, can we get to the
summary and we will follow up next time?

1266
01:47:27,600 --> 01:47:35,840
» Okay. I'm sorry if I came across as
challenging or questioning what you were

1267
01:47:32,800 --> 01:47:41,920
I was I was just repeating things that I
thought I read and I I may not have had

1268
01:47:38,960 --> 01:47:45,119
all the all the different uh you know
numbers and amounts in the right

1269
01:47:44,159 --> 01:47:48,400
district.
>> Sure. And I wasn't I wasn't

1270
01:47:46,560 --> 01:47:53,760
» John. You don't have to apologize. Joan,
you are on council. Your job is to ask

1271
01:47:50,639 --> 01:47:57,360
questions. You are golden. Brad,
>> I just like to offer staff is also

1272
01:47:55,600 --> 01:48:00,719
available for the individual council
members to answer some of these

1273
01:47:58,639 --> 01:48:04,080
questions and I it took me a couple
readroughs to understand it. Yes.

1274
01:48:02,400 --> 01:48:07,199
» So, I'm more than happy to explain what
I could understand as well.

1275
01:48:05,440 --> 01:48:10,880
» That's perfect. Thank you. Did uh
Angela, Peter, Jones, did you hear that?

1276
01:48:09,040 --> 01:48:13,920
Uh connecting with Brad and Sharon about
this more thoroughly because this is

1277
01:48:12,080 --> 01:48:18,880
going to be an ongoing conversation.
Thank you. All right.

1278
01:48:15,600 --> 01:48:24,719
» Can we ask for Can we ask for a one on
one uh one hour presentation or sit down

1279
01:48:22,960 --> 01:48:28,480
and talk about this because I have more
question than I that I could think of.

1280
01:48:27,440 --> 01:48:32,719
» Yeah.
>> Yeah. Agreed, Peter. Great idea. Yes.

1281
01:48:30,880 --> 01:48:36,719
Like we're just beginning this and so
Peter, all of council is shaking their

1282
01:48:34,800 --> 01:48:41,280
head in agreement with you. So yes,
we'll work with that with Brad and

1283
01:48:38,639 --> 01:48:45,920
Sharon. before we get to Paul Eileen.
>> So, and just to clarify for them is that

1284
01:48:44,000 --> 01:48:51,360
we're not even we won't be looking at
this until 2027 and it's not even until

1285
01:48:48,960 --> 01:48:54,960
December of 2027, right? Yeah.
>> Because we're waiting for him to finish

1286
01:48:53,199 --> 01:48:57,679
his preliminary finding,
>> right? And so, so that I just Yeah. I

1287
01:48:57,040 --> 01:49:01,760
wanted to kind of
>> So, this is perfect timing, right, to

1288
01:48:59,679 --> 01:49:03,840
really dig into this, right? We have a
year

1289
01:49:02,239 --> 01:49:08,800
» his report. It's really good.
>> We're not rushing this, right? So, great

1290
01:49:06,159 --> 01:49:12,960
comment, Peter. We'll do that, right?
And thank you, Joan. And then Paul,

1291
01:49:10,960 --> 01:49:17,600
» I was just gonna say that I'll have uh
Britney reach out and coordinate

1292
01:49:15,280 --> 01:49:21,679
meetings with Brad and Sharon. Uh we'll
have Britney or Jessica, one of one or

1293
01:49:19,360 --> 01:49:24,560
the other. We'll reach out and schedule
uh offer meetings for you to schedule on

1294
01:49:23,520 --> 01:49:27,280
your team.
>> Yeah. Perfect.

1295
01:49:26,159 --> 01:49:31,679
» And I think we're going to the key
takeaways now.

1296
01:49:29,920 --> 01:49:34,719
» Yeah. So the main the last slide here
and I'll go to the key takeaways was

1297
01:49:32,960 --> 01:49:38,960
just pointing out the going to the
12-ear. If we apply the 12-year, you can

1298
01:49:37,040 --> 01:49:44,600
see most in the green bars, it actually
then becomes even more feasible across

1299
01:49:40,800 --> 01:49:44,600
all these different housing types.

1300
01:49:44,719 --> 01:49:50,080
» Can you can you jump to the last slide?
Key takeaway slide, Eric, and maybe walk

1301
01:49:48,400 --> 01:49:51,760
through. Yeah.
>> So, the key

1302
01:49:51,040 --> 01:49:54,880
» on technology
>> just to reiterate some of the points

1303
01:49:53,040 --> 01:49:58,000
I've I've tried to make is um the
current program is influencing housing

1304
01:49:56,560 --> 01:50:01,280
development outcomes. So, you are
getting housing built as a result of the

1305
01:50:00,239 --> 01:50:04,880
program, which I think is really
important. We need supply just as much

1306
01:50:02,960 --> 01:50:09,600
as we need affordability. And part of
getting affordability is actually having

1307
01:50:06,639 --> 01:50:13,920
supply of housing. Um the second point
is market rate rents are within the

1308
01:50:11,520 --> 01:50:18,400
affordability requirement. So the point
here is that you have a 12-year MFTTE

1309
01:50:16,159 --> 01:50:24,320
program, but you're really just
delivering more market rate housing

1310
01:50:20,159 --> 01:50:29,520
because most of the affordable units are
actually roughly at market rate rents in

1311
01:50:27,679 --> 01:50:33,199
the city. So you're not actually
delivering any deeper affordability

1312
01:50:30,960 --> 01:50:37,199
result. Uh third point is older again
older properties are a source of what we

1313
01:50:35,360 --> 01:50:41,280
call again naturally affordable housing.
So you you are h you do have affordable

1314
01:50:39,360 --> 01:50:44,159
housing in your community and I think
it's critical to also think about

1315
01:50:42,719 --> 01:50:49,600
maintaining that affordability on
existing units is an important thing. Um

1316
01:50:46,960 --> 01:50:54,480
fourth point is without MFT most market
again most market rate wouldn't projects

1317
01:50:51,520 --> 01:50:57,840
wouldn't be possible. So you wouldn't
get the supply of housing that you

1318
01:50:56,080 --> 01:51:01,440
actually started you need to have in
your community regardless of what you

1319
01:50:59,520 --> 01:51:06,000
think about rents. Um so it's really
important to get supply as as a as as a

1320
01:51:03,679 --> 01:51:11,760
driver to drive down rents as well. U
with MFTTE prototypes you know um most

1321
01:51:09,600 --> 01:51:16,000
of them can afford vacant or
underutilized land but doesn't mean they

1322
01:51:13,440 --> 01:51:20,159
can afford all parcels of land. So MFT
helps again on feasibility. And then the

1323
01:51:18,320 --> 01:51:26,000
second point which I didn't get to to
show on the slide was if you ask if you

1324
01:51:23,280 --> 01:51:31,199
require the MFTTE goes even deeper in
terms of affordable housing requirement.

1325
01:51:28,560 --> 01:51:35,920
So let's say you set 20% of the units at
70% of the area median income. Most of

1326
01:51:34,159 --> 01:51:39,280
those prototypes then are no longer
feasible. So you're not going to

1327
01:51:37,360 --> 01:51:43,840
necessarily get those units built even
if you ask you know demand deeper

1328
01:51:41,280 --> 01:51:48,080
affordability. So this is a calibration
exercise. We're trying to find the right

1329
01:51:46,159 --> 01:51:53,119
affordable set aside to make sure
development still continues to occur

1330
01:51:50,480 --> 01:51:55,920
without making it too burdensome to be
able to achieve the actual housing

1331
01:51:54,719 --> 01:51:59,920
development that the community really
needs.

1332
01:51:58,239 --> 01:52:04,000
So some I guess questions for the city
and priorities, you know, should MFT

1333
01:52:02,000 --> 01:52:07,119
focus on delivering as many deeply
affordable needs as possible or should

1334
01:52:05,440 --> 01:52:10,800
it be about incentivizing housing
production? Again, we need housing

1335
01:52:08,960 --> 01:52:14,560
supply just like we do also need
affordability. [snorts] Uh should

1336
01:52:12,800 --> 01:52:18,560
geographic areas stay the same or be
revised? Um this question for you all. I

1337
01:52:16,560 --> 01:52:22,320
don't know you know your community
better than I do. So curious if there's

1338
01:52:20,719 --> 01:52:25,920
other geographic areas you think where
this would be better applied in terms of

1339
01:52:24,239 --> 01:52:29,920
trying to get housing outcomes that you
want to see. And then third is should

1340
01:52:28,080 --> 01:52:32,639
the city place greater priority on
preservation? Again going back to that

1341
01:52:31,440 --> 01:52:36,000
point that you do have affordable
housing in older properties and

1342
01:52:34,480 --> 01:52:41,599
preservation of those properties and
preservation of those affordable rents

1343
01:52:37,360 --> 01:52:45,040
is an important and as well.
Um, so just in terms of next steps,

1344
01:52:43,520 --> 01:52:48,880
again, we're doing task three is coming
up. We're doing a deeper analysis of the

1345
01:52:46,960 --> 01:52:53,520
multif family tax exemption design.
We're that includes looking at a 20-year

1346
01:52:51,440 --> 01:52:57,440
MFT option. So that's something we'll
look into. And then task four will

1347
01:52:55,840 --> 01:53:02,159
provide a final report as well as a
fiscal analysis looking at the fiscal

1348
01:52:59,199 --> 01:53:05,199
trade-offs of this program versus um not
having it, for example. Um so that's

1349
01:53:04,159 --> 01:53:09,199
something that'll be included in our
task for final report. And then our next

1350
01:53:07,119 --> 01:53:12,639
meeting um in terms of the council
meeting will be on in January 12th and

1351
01:53:11,119 --> 01:53:17,199
we'll present report back on where
things have landed.

1352
01:53:15,040 --> 01:53:20,639
» One thing I'm going to ask is the next
presentation be in person, whatever that

1353
01:53:18,960 --> 01:53:24,639
looks like, because there's a lag and
now I'm even more annoyed because of the

1354
01:53:22,480 --> 01:53:26,480
lag. So I'd like the next one to be in
person, please.

1355
01:53:25,520 --> 01:53:30,040
» Sounds good.
>> Happy to do it.

1356
01:53:31,440 --> 01:53:36,239
Yeah. So when we come back in January,
we'll be bringing a staff report with

1357
01:53:34,239 --> 01:53:39,360
recommendations what code changes what
we think we would propose because we're

1358
01:53:38,159 --> 01:53:42,159
trying to achieve two goals. One is
housing production and one is

1359
01:53:40,560 --> 01:53:46,000
affordability. And this is tied to the
other uh consultancy. They're looking at

1360
01:53:44,800 --> 01:53:50,000
um other ways we could achieve
affordably. Maybe MFT isn't the best way

1361
01:53:47,840 --> 01:53:53,840
to try to meet every goal. Maybe it's
better to just have it be for housing

1362
01:53:51,599 --> 01:53:58,560
production and have other programs
available for hopefully.

1363
01:53:56,000 --> 01:54:02,719
» Right. And this in the interim one-on
ones with staff and any other updates

1364
01:54:01,199 --> 01:54:06,639
can also come to council but also
general government, right?

1365
01:54:04,560 --> 01:54:10,639
» We'll be seeing this in general.
>> Yes. So ongoing work. This is just the

1366
01:54:09,119 --> 01:54:13,679
beginning phase. We all have questions
which means we're all engaged and we're

1367
01:54:12,080 --> 01:54:17,280
all dedicated to figure something out to
serve our community. So this is awesome.

1368
01:54:15,679 --> 01:54:19,920
» You're also welcome to email if you have
want to email questions and we can get

1369
01:54:18,639 --> 01:54:26,000
them answered and then we can share them
with all of you. So that might be

1370
01:54:21,040 --> 01:54:30,000
another way to have it ready.
It's just noting the time. It's 7:57.

1371
01:54:28,560 --> 01:54:35,360
Mayor Protown, what did you have?
>> I I just wondered what other and this

1372
01:54:32,960 --> 01:54:39,199
goes to the planning commission and
equity commission to

1373
01:54:37,040 --> 01:54:42,159
» So, this is not an actual we're not
taking the code through yet. We're just

1374
01:54:40,880 --> 01:54:46,080
looking at what do you want to do with
it? So, when we come to you in January,

1375
01:54:44,880 --> 01:54:49,360
they're like, "Here's some options. What
would you like to do?" Then you'll be

1376
01:54:47,760 --> 01:54:51,679
directing us. We want to do this. Then
we do the code change and then it goes

1377
01:54:50,800 --> 01:54:55,440
through the whole
>> this came from the when Michael also

1378
01:54:53,840 --> 01:54:59,360
were on council with Joan Cathy and
myself in general government right

1379
01:54:56,800 --> 01:55:02,639
working with Brad there were like is
this even working are we like it's so

1380
01:55:01,119 --> 01:55:06,560
arbitrary are we making up these
percentages and so the concept was yeah

1381
01:55:04,880 --> 01:55:10,880
we allow it right now but then we got to
study it and figure out in the scheme of

1382
01:55:08,719 --> 01:55:15,119
water and the regional housing council
and all the other inner city transit

1383
01:55:12,800 --> 01:55:19,040
TRPC what does it really look like for
Tom water and so that was the

1384
01:55:16,960 --> 01:55:22,239
negotiation we let this keep going and
we figure out how we're going to move

1385
01:55:20,239 --> 01:55:24,800
forward and what that really looks like.
>> Well, we come back to you with those

1386
01:55:23,280 --> 01:55:27,520
findings, then you'll direct us, yes,
you want to do this or that, and then

1387
01:55:26,080 --> 01:55:30,320
we'll do the
>> And then I think that's where the

1388
01:55:28,800 --> 01:55:34,400
engagement of the equity commission and
the planning commission, whomever else

1389
01:55:32,159 --> 01:55:38,560
you think needs to be talking about.
>> John, did you have something?

1390
01:55:36,080 --> 01:55:43,040
» I don't want you to sign me up with Brad
because it'll make his hair stand on

1391
01:55:41,040 --> 01:55:45,099
Anderson. He's talked to me so many
times [laughter]

1392
01:55:45,360 --> 01:55:53,280
and had many talk.
>> His body posture right now, Jim.

1393
01:55:50,719 --> 01:55:56,880
» So, don't don't put me on don't put me
on my his his list for people to talk

1394
01:55:56,480 --> 01:55:58,880
to.
>> I'm gonna have you circle back like

1395
01:55:58,320 --> 01:56:04,480
we're at.
>> Yeah, I'll circle back.

1396
01:56:01,360 --> 01:56:09,119
» Make us both dizzy.
>> We have mayor, city administrator's

1397
01:56:06,639 --> 01:56:12,000
report. My report is at 7:59 and I'm
done for the day. Paul,

1398
01:56:10,560 --> 01:56:16,159
» if you're done, I'm done.
>> Meeting at 7:59. Thank you everybody.