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>> Regular meeting of the Union County Board of Commissioners

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to order.

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At this time I will provide the invocation.

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If you are so inclined, please join me in prayer.

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Dear Heavenly Father Lord we want

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to thank you for all of your blessings

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all of your blessings on our nation, our state, and also

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our county.

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Lord, as we look to make decisions tonight as a body,

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as a group here, we ask for your guidance

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and your wisdom concerning the items for discussion tonight.

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We want to thank you again for all of your blessings.

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We ask that you direct us as you see fit.

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In Jesus name we pray.

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Amen.

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Please join us for the Pledge of Allegiance.

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I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America

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and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God,

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indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

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The next item on our agenda is informal comments

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from the community.

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And I have got two individuals that have signed up

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to provide informal comments.

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Each speaker must address the board from the lectern

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and begin their remarks by giving their name,

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stating whether they are a resident of Union County,

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and indicating the municipality within which they reside,

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if any.

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Each speaker will have three minutes to make remarks.

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A tone may sound at the conclusion of your remarks.

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A speaker may not yield any of his or her time

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to another speaker.

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The speakers may not discuss matters

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which are the subject of public hearings,

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and they must be courteous in their language and presentation.

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Restatements or repetitive comments by the same speaker,

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whether at the same or separate meetings,

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may be ruled out of order and terminated by the chair.

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Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

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Speakers may leave written comments

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and/or supporting documents, if any, with the clerk.

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Our first speaker tonight is John Earley.

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>> Good evening, commissioners.

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I have this shirt on that says, "do not Meck with my union."

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There's a company called Tiptoeing,

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and they are located in Charlotte North Carolina.

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Their address is 114 East 28th Street, Charlotte,

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North Carolina.

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They are coming over to Union County and finding people that

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they think are illegally parked and towing their vehicles up

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to their lot in Charlotte, which is in what they call --

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and citizens of Union County are having to go to Charlotte

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and pay well over $1,000 to get their vehicles back.

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This is unacceptable.

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Does Union County not have towing companies?

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Why is a Charlotte towing company coming to Union County

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and towing vehicles back to Charlotte?

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Have they got law enforcement privileges

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that we don't know about?

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Is this anything you all can address?

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I mean, don't meck with my Union.

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They are doing it.

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And nobody wants to do anything about it.

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Somebody needs to do something about it.

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I don't know.

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I don't know if you all can do anything about it

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or if the state legislator has to do anything about it.

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What's next?

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Is it Sheriff McFadden going to send his deputies

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across the county line to arrest Union County citizens?

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I don't think the Sheriff would appreciate that.

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The citizens of Union County don't appreciate towing

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companies --

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I have seen them at work.

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I have seen them.

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When I am working, I drive around and deliver auto parts

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part time.

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When I am working, I've seen them operate.

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They have scouts they send out.

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They tag cars.

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They call their buddies on the tow truck,

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and they come pick them up.

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They don't have the name of the company on the tow truck.

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I've seen this happen, in person.

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I slowed down and take a look at it.

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They looked at me like they wanted to hit me or something.

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Is there something you can do about this --

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if there is something you could do about this, please do.

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It has got to be addressed.

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It is unacceptable.

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Thank you.

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>> Thank you, John.

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Our next speaker tonight is Madeline Beal --

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Bile.

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Sorry about that.

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>> I get it.

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My name is Madeline.

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I'm a resident of Union County.

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I live in Monroe.

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I would actually like to discuss Monroe.

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Last week at Monroe City Council meeting,

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they discussed concerns around the homeless population

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that gathers around the community shelter.

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I do agree that there are legitimate concerns,

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but the majority of the discussion

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centered around how to make things better

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for the residents at the nearby luxury apartments that

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were built four years after the community shelter and less

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around what to do to help the Disenfranchized.

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They discussed it as a problem to get rid of and not

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a community to aid.

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These are members of our community

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that have nowhere to go when the shelter is at capacity.

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The average monthly rent in Union County is $1,800,

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but the average SSI check is only $900.

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While the community shelter is in Monroe,

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they serve Union County.

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Affordable housing or addiction treatment

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are not one community's challenge.

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I would like to implore the county commissioners to speak

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with Monroe City Council to see how we can work together to find

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a way to help these individuals in the long run

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and not to just brush the problem under the rug.

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Thank you.

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>> Thank you.

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So that concludes all of the speakers

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that had signed up to speak.

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Is there anyone from the audience

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that would like to provide informal comment?

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Seeing none, we will move on to our next agenda item.

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So the next two items on our agenda

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are public hearings, one for a text amendment to the Union

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Development Ordinance and one for the designation

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of county owned property as economic development property.

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Before opening the first public hearing,

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I will read the rules that will apply for each

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of these public hearings.

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Each speaker must address the board from the lectern

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and begin the remarks by giving their name,

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stating whether they are residents of Union County,

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and indicating which municipality within they reside,

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if any.

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Each speaker will have three minutes to make remarks.

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A tone may sound at the conclusion of your remarks.

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A speaker may not yield any of his or her time to another.

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Speakers shall limit their remarks

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to the subject of the public hearing.

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Speakers may leave written comments

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and/or supporting documents, if any, with the clerk

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to the board.

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The first public hearing tonight on our agenda is item 26-412,

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for text amendments to sections 25.010, table of allowed uses,

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25.020, other use category, 30.210, data centers,

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and 30.220, crypto mining operations of the Union County

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Development Ordinance.

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I will now recognize Lee Jensen, planning director, for comments

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from staff.

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Welcome.

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>> Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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Again, as you stated, this is a text amendment

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to the Unified Development Ordinance of the Union County.

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Really, it is about putting some guardrails in place

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for the emerging uses of -- we call them data centers.

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I will be brief.

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It's really just one slide here.

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This covers data centers and crypto mining operations.

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So this text amendment -- data centers will be allowed

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as a special use in heavy industrial with supplemental

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standards but also provides definitions of what data centers

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and crypto mining operations are.

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And I believe those text amendments were

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included in your agenda packet.

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You should have those.

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And then the supplemental standards for both data

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centers and crypto mining operations

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is kind of broken up into two separate sections here.

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There's some standards for both, then

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there's some separate standards for just crypto mining.

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So the supplemental standards for both

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would cover things like setbacks, landscaping, lighting,

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noise.

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There would be a pre-construction sound study

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required, and then any subsequent noise

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that would be above that would have to be mitigated.

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Backup power generation, such as generators,

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would be for temporary use only.

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Utility capacity would have to have something from water sewer,

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and electrical providers saying they

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could handle the increased capacity

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that's coming from the use of those data centers.

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And then they would have to have some decommissioning plans.

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So what's going to happen if this thing goes away?

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How are we going to return the site to pre-development type

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condition, or as close to pre-development condition

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as they can get?

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And then some supplemental standards for crypto mining

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operations -- have to be in a fully enclosed building,

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can't be in a containerized outdoor structure,

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unless that meets the building code.

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It containerized structure is like a -- oh, man,

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I just lost my train of thought there.

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It's like a container, like a shipping container.

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Thanks, Patrick.

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Again, backup power is for temporary use only,

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then electrical provider would have

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to provide something saying they can handle that demand.

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The general guardrails that kind of for the text amendment.

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Heavy industrial, in case you are curious --

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two primary areas where heavy industrial are --

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Patrick has a GIS map.

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I'm going to hijack it here.

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First primary area is around the airport.

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So this dark blue is heavy industrial.

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You can see some -- there's a few spots around along Airport

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Road.

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The primary area, though, is along gold mine.

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Some of this is --

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I think some of this is actually county-owned.

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It's part of the industrial park.

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There are some other parcels that

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are next to it that are privately owned.

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It's a pretty big chunk there.

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Again, some smaller pieces along Airport, a couple

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acres here and there.

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Then the other primary area is down --

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there is another area in an industrial park,

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over off of Gribble Road --

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Smith farm, sorry.

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It's pretty small.

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It's about 2.5 acres, I believe.

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That's kind of a leftover piece, when the county used

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to have that whole area, but it has slowly

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been annexed by Stallings and Indian Trail.

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That's sort of leftover strip.

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But the other primary area is down at Jaars.

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So you see, that's the runway right there.

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A lot of that area around the runway

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is zoned Heavy industrial.

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That is all owned by JAARS.

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So any existing heavy industrial piece,

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if this text amendment were to pass,

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would require a special use permit.

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Any piece that wasn't zoned heavy industrial, of course,

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would be a rezoning that would come to you for approval.

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Likely in the form of a conditional rezoning with all

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of the special use items in place

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so you could either approve it or deny it.

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I'll be happy to answer any questions.

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>> Thank you.

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Do you have the text amendment?

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>> Yes, sir.

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>> Because I think there was a couple of things that maybe we

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had some questions about or wanted to look at a little bit

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further.

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While you are pulling that up, I'm going to open the floor.

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I do not have anyone signed up to speak on this public hearing,

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but I do want to open the floor for the public.

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So if there is anyone in the audience that

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would like to speak regarding this item, please come forward.

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Okay.

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>> (Inaudible comment)

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>> I'm sorry.

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You need to approach the lectern.

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>> Do we have any open requests, or is this precautionary?

265
00:13:53,564 --> 00:13:56,870
>> Any other comments from the public?

266
00:13:56,870 --> 00:13:58,870
Okay, thank you.

267
00:13:59,484 --> 00:14:01,484
Board, any questions?

268
00:14:05,550 --> 00:14:08,687
>> You may or may not know the answers to the question

269
00:14:08,687 --> 00:14:11,507
I'm going to ask you, and I'm going to expose my ignorance

270
00:14:11,507 --> 00:14:12,563
on data centers.

271
00:14:12,563 --> 00:14:17,963
But the typical footprint of a data center --

272
00:14:18,936 --> 00:14:22,378
>> They can range from just really big to, now,

273
00:14:22,378 --> 00:14:28,378
some of the technology is -- can be relatively small.

274
00:14:28,747 --> 00:14:33,230
There is really no one size fits all data center.

275
00:14:33,230 --> 00:14:35,307
It used to be that they were pretty large

276
00:14:35,307 --> 00:14:39,220
and required a lot of water and a lot of electricity.

277
00:14:39,220 --> 00:14:43,507
But now some of the technology is switching over to some

278
00:14:43,507 --> 00:14:45,400
smaller sort of --

279
00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:52,204
I guess smaller but more of them data centers in certain spots

280
00:14:53,570 --> 00:14:55,747
and actually using some different technologies

281
00:14:55,747 --> 00:14:58,747
to help cool and power.

282
00:15:00,270 --> 00:15:04,227
There's not a one size fits all.

283
00:15:05,780 --> 00:15:05,714
>> Okay.

284
00:15:05,714 --> 00:15:08,947
So water usage -- that was going to be my next question.

285
00:15:08,947 --> 00:15:13,747
Do they use a large amount of water?

286
00:15:14,293 --> 00:15:15,760
>> They can.

287
00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,381
Again, some of the technology is changing,

288
00:15:18,381 --> 00:15:20,256
and there's different technologies out there.

289
00:15:20,256 --> 00:15:25,655
That is a way to cool those data centers.

290
00:15:25,655 --> 00:15:28,280
These are a bunch of big -- it's a room with a bunch of servers

291
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:28,671
in it.

292
00:15:28,671 --> 00:15:29,655
So they get really hot.

293
00:15:29,655 --> 00:15:30,831
Use a lot of energy.

294
00:15:30,831 --> 00:15:34,270
And they have to have some way to cool those things down.

295
00:15:34,270 --> 00:15:38,461
Water is a really easy, cheap way to do it.

296
00:15:38,461 --> 00:15:40,315
But a lot of them --

297
00:15:40,315 --> 00:15:42,755
I'll be honest with you calm off the top of my head,

298
00:15:42,755 --> 00:15:44,838
I can't remember what the technologies are called.

299
00:15:44,838 --> 00:15:49,204
But there are kind -- kind of like coolant in your car.

300
00:15:49,204 --> 00:15:51,287
There's other ways to cool those data centers down

301
00:15:51,287 --> 00:15:52,487
that are coming out.

302
00:15:52,487 --> 00:15:58,524
But water is a big one, and the ones that use water can --

303
00:15:58,524 --> 00:16:01,597
some of them can use quite a bit.

304
00:16:01,597 --> 00:16:07,597
>> So is it a self-contained system that Rrecirculates, or --

305
00:16:08,170 --> 00:16:12,140
Recirculates, or is it released into the environment?

306
00:16:12,140 --> 00:16:14,307
>> That is what a lot of the ones that use water are

307
00:16:14,307 --> 00:16:16,240
switching to is that it is self-contained and keeps cycling

308
00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:16,740
through.

309
00:16:16,740 --> 00:16:18,562
Eventually has to be cycled out, though.

310
00:16:18,562 --> 00:16:19,854
It can't stay in there forever.

311
00:16:19,854 --> 00:16:23,883
But some of them do -- again, when it does dump,

312
00:16:23,883 --> 00:16:26,383
whether that is over a long period of time or a short period

313
00:16:26,383 --> 00:16:29,750
of time, it either gets put into a septic system,

314
00:16:29,750 --> 00:16:35,150
or it gets put into the municipal sewer system.

315
00:16:36,900 --> 00:16:39,947
>> Is it considered hazardous waste at that point?

316
00:16:39,947 --> 00:16:42,300
>> I don't know if it's considered fully hazardous

317
00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:47,825
or not, but there is some not so good stuff in there.

318
00:16:47,825 --> 00:16:49,575
>> The noise level around a data center --

319
00:16:49,575 --> 00:16:52,575
is it a noisy neighbor?

320
00:16:53,931 --> 00:16:56,920
>> That's one of those that has been out there for debate.

321
00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,821
I have listened to a lot of hearings and watched a lot of --

322
00:17:01,821 --> 00:17:05,755
or read a lot of comments that people have given.

323
00:17:05,755 --> 00:17:07,891
They are kind of divided.

324
00:17:07,891 --> 00:17:10,378
Some people say that it's kind of a background noise,

325
00:17:10,378 --> 00:17:15,329
that it is not loud, but it is just -- it is louder,

326
00:17:15,329 --> 00:17:16,773
and it is very aggravating.

327
00:17:16,773 --> 00:17:18,157
Some people say it is very loud.

328
00:17:18,157 --> 00:17:19,907
Some people say they can't hear it at all.

329
00:17:19,907 --> 00:17:22,227
I think it may depend on the individual.

330
00:17:22,227 --> 00:17:26,260
But that is why part of what we have in here

331
00:17:26,260 --> 00:17:28,851
is that sound study to essentially say,

332
00:17:28,851 --> 00:17:31,427
you have to do a pre-development sound

333
00:17:31,427 --> 00:17:34,167
study to establish a baseline.

334
00:17:34,167 --> 00:17:37,130
What is the baseline where you are today?

335
00:17:37,130 --> 00:17:42,280
And if that data center would increase the sound out there,

336
00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,480
then you have got to mitigate that.

337
00:17:47,111 --> 00:17:51,197
>> Do they use an enormous amount of power?

338
00:17:51,197 --> 00:17:53,597
>> They can, yes, sir.

339
00:17:53,622 --> 00:17:57,650
In fact, some of the new technology

340
00:17:57,650 --> 00:17:59,900
are sort of micro nuclear plants that they are talking

341
00:17:59,900 --> 00:18:01,670
about to power some of them.

342
00:18:01,670 --> 00:18:02,920
But the ones that hook into the grid, yeah,

343
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,780
they can use a lot of power.

344
00:18:06,780 --> 00:18:08,780
>> Thank you.

345
00:18:08,980 --> 00:18:10,980
>> You're welcome.

346
00:18:12,976 --> 00:18:15,287
>> Lee, thanks for the work you put in.

347
00:18:15,287 --> 00:18:16,587
I appreciate it.

348
00:18:16,587 --> 00:18:21,867
Just a couple of areas I'd like to see address to, if possible.

349
00:18:21,867 --> 00:18:24,867
The commissioner just mentioned noise.

350
00:18:25,299 --> 00:18:28,187
Can we address low frequency noise,

351
00:18:28,187 --> 00:18:31,635
the noise that we just don't hear within the ear,

352
00:18:31,635 --> 00:18:35,117
and ensure that that low vibration that emanates from

353
00:18:35,117 --> 00:18:39,920
data centers -- that we measure that and make sure that

354
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:41,492
the setbacks are appropriate?

355
00:18:42,670 --> 00:18:44,300
>> Yeah, we could research that.

356
00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:47,430
We did have some setbacks --

357
00:18:47,430 --> 00:18:48,440
I didn't point them out.

358
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:53,872
There they are on your screens, some minimum site design

359
00:18:53,872 --> 00:18:54,372
standards.

360
00:18:54,372 --> 00:18:57,147
They would have to be 100ft away from property lines and 500ft

361
00:18:57,147 --> 00:19:02,399
away from any residential zoning districts or lots with existing

362
00:19:02,399 --> 00:19:06,599
dwellings and then 1000ft from schools, daycares,

363
00:19:07,547 --> 00:19:10,167
assisted living, or similar congregate care type facilities.

364
00:19:10,167 --> 00:19:15,613
I didn't say that before, so I just wanted you to see that.

365
00:19:15,613 --> 00:19:16,187
>> If you could research on --

366
00:19:16,187 --> 00:19:18,729
I found that there are three counties that have setbacks that

367
00:19:18,729 --> 00:19:20,770
are farther than 100ft or 1000ft, even.

368
00:19:20,770 --> 00:19:24,347
So MacOn County has a one mile setback

369
00:19:24,347 --> 00:19:26,987
from residences and public schools,

370
00:19:26,987 --> 00:19:29,552
and Cherokee County has a one mile separation

371
00:19:29,552 --> 00:19:33,752
also from residences, churches, and educational facilities.

372
00:19:33,987 --> 00:19:38,187
Henderson actually has a two mile buffer.

373
00:19:38,667 --> 00:19:43,467
Just one other item, the amendment clause --

374
00:19:44,881 --> 00:19:46,266
we have two years.

375
00:19:46,266 --> 00:19:48,498
Could we maybe make it one year?

376
00:19:48,498 --> 00:19:52,698
And I don't know if it's possible,

377
00:19:52,939 --> 00:19:56,171
but to have a decommissioning bond,

378
00:19:56,171 --> 00:19:58,217
get some money up front in case they do --

379
00:19:58,217 --> 00:20:01,817
it does need to be decommissioned.

380
00:20:05,667 --> 00:20:07,881
Just one other thing --

381
00:20:07,881 --> 00:20:09,417
I was asked recently --

382
00:20:09,417 --> 00:20:12,227
I know some other municipalities are implementing moratoriums

383
00:20:12,227 --> 00:20:13,560
on data centers.

384
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,226
That's great for them.

385
00:20:15,226 --> 00:20:17,257
I mean, it gives them an opportunity

386
00:20:17,257 --> 00:20:22,929
to adopt an ordinance that is beneficial to their residents.

387
00:20:22,929 --> 00:20:25,400
I just want to mention that you have been working

388
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,218
on this for a while, and really no need for us

389
00:20:28,218 --> 00:20:29,930
to have a moratorium.

390
00:20:29,930 --> 00:20:30,676
I appreciate the work you have put in.

391
00:20:30,676 --> 00:20:33,676
We are pretty much there.

392
00:20:33,763 --> 00:20:34,555
>> Appreciate that.

393
00:20:34,555 --> 00:20:39,955
You said MacOn, Henderson, and what was the third?

394
00:20:44,131 --> 00:20:46,131
>> Cherokee.

395
00:20:46,764 --> 00:20:48,465
>> Lee, I've got a couple things, too.

396
00:20:48,465 --> 00:20:51,526
I agree with the commissioner here that -- first of all,

397
00:20:51,526 --> 00:20:53,693
I was glad to see that the study was being required.

398
00:20:53,693 --> 00:20:55,944
As I was looking through the text amendment,

399
00:20:55,944 --> 00:20:59,170
I think that that's something that's obviously important.

400
00:20:59,170 --> 00:21:04,670
My question was -- because we start talking about sound

401
00:21:04,670 --> 00:21:08,984
mitigation and that it would have to be required,

402
00:21:08,984 --> 00:21:10,817
depending on the results of the sound study.

403
00:21:10,817 --> 00:21:13,413
And I'm paraphrasing here a little bit.

404
00:21:13,413 --> 00:21:19,310
My question is, how specific can we get with this?

405
00:21:19,310 --> 00:21:24,165
Is there a way to define what sound mitigation measures would

406
00:21:24,165 --> 00:21:25,104
be appropriate?

407
00:21:25,104 --> 00:21:27,562
Are we getting too far into the weeds for a text amendment?

408
00:21:27,562 --> 00:21:30,826
I guess what I'm trying to say is,

409
00:21:30,826 --> 00:21:35,987
and my professional work, more specificity is a good thing.

410
00:21:35,987 --> 00:21:40,683
And so I'm thinking maybe that perhaps we

411
00:21:40,683 --> 00:21:46,450
should spell out what would be the appropriate sound mitigation

412
00:21:46,450 --> 00:21:47,708
measures.

413
00:21:47,708 --> 00:21:49,830
>> You could either spell it out,

414
00:21:49,830 --> 00:21:55,150
or you could give examples within the ordinance to help

415
00:21:55,150 --> 00:21:58,520
maybe steer somebody in a certain direction.

416
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,525
When I think of sound mitigation,

417
00:22:01,525 --> 00:22:08,621
the two primary ways you can do it is, one is -- well, three.

418
00:22:08,621 --> 00:22:10,123
One is through setbacks and.

419
00:22:10,123 --> 00:22:12,417
You just keep increasing those setbacks.

420
00:22:12,417 --> 00:22:14,817
Two is through vegetation.

421
00:22:16,529 --> 00:22:19,554
If you have increased setbacks and buffers,

422
00:22:19,554 --> 00:22:21,742
you can achieve some sound mitigation there.

423
00:22:21,742 --> 00:22:23,556
Three is some way within the building.

424
00:22:23,556 --> 00:22:27,483
You have acoustical walls that you put in the building

425
00:22:27,483 --> 00:22:29,270
to help buffer that sound.

426
00:22:29,270 --> 00:22:31,748
Those are the three primary ways that I have seen.

427
00:22:31,748 --> 00:22:34,456
I think if we are going to steer somebody in a certain direction,

428
00:22:34,456 --> 00:22:38,994
those are probably the three ways we would do it.

429
00:22:38,994 --> 00:22:40,360
>> It was just a thought.

430
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:44,530
I don't know if there's a way that we could specify that

431
00:22:44,530 --> 00:22:45,140
or not.

432
00:22:45,140 --> 00:22:48,496
The other thing is the setbacks.

433
00:22:48,496 --> 00:22:50,896
I tend to agree.

434
00:22:51,652 --> 00:22:55,293
I'd like to see us maybe research more on that 500 foot

435
00:22:55,293 --> 00:22:58,607
minimum setback from residential zoning districts.

436
00:22:58,607 --> 00:23:05,207
I understand that we need to be cognizant of our county

437
00:23:05,581 --> 00:23:08,900
and what we are dealing with here in Union County.

438
00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:10,998
But at the same time, I would prefer

439
00:23:10,998 --> 00:23:13,668
to see a higher number there.

440
00:23:13,668 --> 00:23:19,668
Now, whether that number is 750ft, whether it's 1000ft --

441
00:23:21,143 --> 00:23:23,320
but if we could do some additional research there

442
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,138
regarding minimum setbacks from residents.

443
00:23:26,138 --> 00:23:29,675
But I think this is a good first step.

444
00:23:29,675 --> 00:23:34,547
I'm glad that we are discussing this because, as of right now,

445
00:23:34,547 --> 00:23:39,415
we have nothing in our UDO that identifies data centers.

446
00:23:39,415 --> 00:23:42,437
So I think this is a good step for our board to take,

447
00:23:42,437 --> 00:23:47,237
and I certainly appreciate your reference in this.

448
00:23:48,347 --> 00:23:53,147
any other questions or comments for Lee, feedback?

449
00:23:54,489 --> 00:23:55,114
Thank you, Lee.

450
00:23:55,114 --> 00:23:56,614
I will now close the public hearing.

451
00:23:56,614 --> 00:24:00,814
The second public hearing is item 24-464,

452
00:24:01,620 --> 00:24:03,992
and that is for designation of county owned property

453
00:24:03,992 --> 00:24:05,367
as economic development property.

454
00:24:05,367 --> 00:24:09,333
I will open the public hearing and recognize --

455
00:24:09,333 --> 00:24:11,733
am I recognizing Patrick?

456
00:24:13,864 --> 00:24:17,155
>> I was trying to get him reset.

457
00:24:17,155 --> 00:24:19,322
>> I'm going to recognize Patrick calm at the deputy

458
00:24:19,322 --> 00:24:22,794
County manager, for comments from staff.

459
00:24:22,794 --> 00:24:23,336
>> Thank you.

460
00:24:23,336 --> 00:24:31,136
I've got to undo what Lee did to me here for a second.

461
00:24:41,427 --> 00:24:42,227
Okay.

462
00:24:42,227 --> 00:24:43,827
Thank you.

463
00:24:43,827 --> 00:24:48,270
Back in early 2025, at the board authorized

464
00:24:48,867 --> 00:24:51,555
us to purchase 27 acres through two pieces of property.

465
00:24:51,555 --> 00:24:55,976
This was just north of the bypass in the town of Winget.

466
00:24:55,976 --> 00:24:57,500
We have worked over the last year

467
00:24:57,500 --> 00:25:00,800
to annex that into the city limits of Winget.

468
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,736
We have also got that rezoned from an R-40

469
00:25:04,736 --> 00:25:06,747
to a light industrial to allow us

470
00:25:06,747 --> 00:25:08,987
to try to attract both industrial and commercial

471
00:25:08,987 --> 00:25:11,387
develop around that interchange.

472
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,157
We are asking the board to designate

473
00:25:13,157 --> 00:25:14,640
this land for economic development purposes.

474
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:16,267
It was not done when we purchased it,

475
00:25:16,267 --> 00:25:19,204
so we are going back to try to get you to authorize that use.

476
00:25:19,204 --> 00:25:22,915
This is a chance to give the public a chance

477
00:25:22,915 --> 00:25:25,915
to comment on that request.

478
00:25:30,777 --> 00:25:32,650
>> Thank you, Patrick.

479
00:25:32,650 --> 00:25:34,380
Okay, once again, I have no speakers signed up

480
00:25:34,380 --> 00:25:35,380
for this public hearing.

481
00:25:35,380 --> 00:25:38,992
I will now open the floor, if there's

482
00:25:38,992 --> 00:25:41,955
anyone in the audience that would like to make comments.

483
00:25:41,955 --> 00:25:44,445
Seeing none comment any questions for Patrick

484
00:25:44,445 --> 00:25:46,445
from the board?

485
00:25:46,901 --> 00:25:48,930
All right.

486
00:25:48,930 --> 00:25:49,213
Thank you, Patrick.

487
00:25:49,213 --> 00:25:53,413
I will now close the public hearing.

488
00:25:59,907 --> 00:26:05,307
The next item on our agenda is item 26-440,

489
00:26:06,959 --> 00:26:09,359
recognize lifesaver Award recipients.

490
00:26:10,181 --> 00:26:15,581
I will now again recognize deputy County Manager Patrick

491
00:26:15,883 --> 00:26:20,830
Niland for brief comments concerning this item.

492
00:26:20,221 --> 00:26:20,987
>> We are here tonight to recognize two of our Union

493
00:26:20,987 --> 00:26:23,939
County Sheriff's deputies for some life saving actions.

494
00:26:23,939 --> 00:26:28,139
On Sunday April 5th, 2026 at approximately 3:00 AM,

495
00:26:31,482 --> 00:26:36,282
Union County Sheriff deputies responded to a --

496
00:26:36,283 --> 00:26:38,873
deputies Paul Garcia and Jason Frazier arrived nearly

497
00:26:38,873 --> 00:26:41,733
simultaneously before firefighters and a large portion

498
00:26:41,733 --> 00:26:43,939
of the home was engulfed in flames.

499
00:26:43,939 --> 00:26:45,333
As they ran toward the home, they

500
00:26:45,333 --> 00:26:47,333
heard a woman screaming for help from the window

501
00:26:47,333 --> 00:26:48,533
in the opposite side.

502
00:26:48,533 --> 00:26:50,600
Without hesitation, the deputies broke the window

503
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,580
and created an opening large enough

504
00:26:52,580 --> 00:26:54,100
to safely remove the woman from the burning home.

505
00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:56,430
They placed her in a patrol vehicle

506
00:26:56,430 --> 00:26:59,335
and remained with her until emergency personnel arrived.

507
00:26:59,335 --> 00:27:01,127
Unfortunately, there was another individual

508
00:27:01,127 --> 00:27:02,669
in the house that did not make it out

509
00:27:02,669 --> 00:27:05,447
and succumbed to that fire.

510
00:27:05,447 --> 00:27:08,899
But there is no doubt this woman is alive because of these two

511
00:27:08,899 --> 00:27:09,555
deputies.

512
00:27:09,555 --> 00:27:12,547
Every day, our employees are put in positions

513
00:27:12,547 --> 00:27:14,890
and they deliver over and over again.

514
00:27:14,890 --> 00:27:15,172
We couldn't be more proud.

515
00:27:15,172 --> 00:27:19,372
I would like to ask, Sheriff Cathey,

516
00:27:20,104 --> 00:27:25,200
do you have any words you want to share?

517
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,600
>> Come on up, Sheriff.

518
00:27:34,856 --> 00:27:36,463
>> Thank you, Patrick.

519
00:27:36,463 --> 00:27:39,107
I just want to say, I am proud to be

520
00:27:39,107 --> 00:27:42,203
the Sheriff of Union County and the place

521
00:27:42,203 --> 00:27:46,403
that is appropriate for us to live.

522
00:27:46,616 --> 00:27:49,307
And these officers -- they don't get that from training.

523
00:27:49,307 --> 00:27:51,147
That's because they know the difference

524
00:27:51,147 --> 00:27:54,587
between right and wrong and did not

525
00:27:54,587 --> 00:27:58,560
hesitate to move forward and do the job that we

526
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,949
are out there every day to do.

527
00:28:00,949 --> 00:28:03,494
I just say how proud I am of them,

528
00:28:03,494 --> 00:28:05,577
and I am proud of the county and our commissioners

529
00:28:05,577 --> 00:28:07,630
and the support they have given us

530
00:28:07,630 --> 00:28:12,715
to be able to move forward in all the things

531
00:28:12,715 --> 00:28:13,965
that we do here in the county.

532
00:28:13,965 --> 00:28:15,781
This is just a big part of it.

533
00:28:15,781 --> 00:28:17,410
We are proud of you.

534
00:28:17,410 --> 00:28:20,410
We are proud of them.

535
00:28:20,881 --> 00:28:22,881
>> Thank you, Sheriff.

536
00:28:25,855 --> 00:28:28,272
>> If you all could join me in congratulating and thanking

537
00:28:28,272 --> 00:28:31,850
the two deputies for their actions.

538
00:28:31,850 --> 00:28:33,850
[Applause]

539
00:28:41,810 --> 00:28:44,902
>> You don't get out of getting up front.

540
00:28:44,902 --> 00:28:46,902
[Laughter]

541
00:29:20,631 --> 00:29:22,631
[Applause]

542
00:29:42,657 --> 00:29:44,150
>> Thank you again, folks.

543
00:29:44,150 --> 00:29:44,817
Congratulations.

544
00:29:44,817 --> 00:29:47,295
Thank you for what you did for us.

545
00:29:47,295 --> 00:29:50,693
Our next agenda item is item 26-458.

546
00:29:50,693 --> 00:29:53,347
That is information technology earns National top five ranking

547
00:29:53,347 --> 00:29:55,670
and Achievement award.

548
00:29:55,670 --> 00:29:59,147
I will recognize John Amelio, information Director --

549
00:29:59,147 --> 00:30:01,190
or Information Technology Director --

550
00:30:01,190 --> 00:30:04,513
for brief comments on this item.

551
00:30:04,513 --> 00:30:06,169
Welcome, John.

552
00:30:06,169 --> 00:30:06,711
>> Thank you.

553
00:30:06,711 --> 00:30:07,742
Congratulations, again.

554
00:30:07,742 --> 00:30:11,942
Good evening, chairman Helms, vice chair Holmes,

555
00:30:12,987 --> 00:30:17,187
commissioners, and County -- vice chair Helms,

556
00:30:18,863 --> 00:30:20,571
commissioners comment and County manager.

557
00:30:20,571 --> 00:30:22,927
It is my pleasure tonight to share innovative work happening

558
00:30:22,927 --> 00:30:23,707
across Union County.

559
00:30:23,707 --> 00:30:26,290
I'm proud to announce that Union County has been ranked fourth

560
00:30:26,290 --> 00:30:29,132
in the nation in the 2026 Digital County Survey among

561
00:30:29,132 --> 00:30:32,132
counties with populations between 250,000 and 500,000.

562
00:30:33,747 --> 00:30:38,467
There are two things that make this recognition especially

563
00:30:38,467 --> 00:30:38,983
meaningful.

564
00:30:38,983 --> 00:30:42,920
First off, this is the eighth year in a row

565
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,379
that Union County has finished in the top ten nationally,

566
00:30:45,379 --> 00:30:47,931
and secondly, this is the highest ranking

567
00:30:47,931 --> 00:30:51,267
we have ever received since moving into a larger population

568
00:30:51,267 --> 00:30:51,787
category.

569
00:30:51,787 --> 00:30:54,917
In fact, Union County continues to be the smallest county

570
00:30:54,917 --> 00:30:59,235
in this category, not only in population, but in budget,

571
00:30:59,235 --> 00:31:02,481
as well, making this recognition even more significant.

572
00:31:02,481 --> 00:31:03,939
The Digital County survey conducted

573
00:31:03,939 --> 00:31:05,447
by the center for Digital Government

574
00:31:05,447 --> 00:31:10,847
and the Association of Counties, also known as NAACO,

575
00:31:13,287 --> 00:31:16,403
recognizes counties that are using technology

576
00:31:16,403 --> 00:31:17,637
and how they serve residents.

577
00:31:17,637 --> 00:31:20,540
This year, the judge's specifically

578
00:31:20,540 --> 00:31:21,637
recognized our focus on collaboration,

579
00:31:21,637 --> 00:31:23,429
including regular meetings with departments

580
00:31:23,429 --> 00:31:26,120
to discuss technology, governance, cybersecurity,

581
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:27,720
and emerging technologies.

582
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,400
They also highlighted our major approach to artificial

583
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,627
intelligence, including sprout --

584
00:31:33,627 --> 00:31:36,510
that is our AI-powered website assistance.

585
00:31:36,510 --> 00:31:41,440
Thanks to Liz and her team -- our phase Microsoft Copilot

586
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:46,240
Studio initiative, and our AI acceptable use guidelines.

587
00:31:50,167 --> 00:31:56,767
A GIS team was also identified for completing UC Atlas, which

588
00:31:57,627 --> 00:31:59,877
is our new online mapping and property platform, which

589
00:31:59,877 --> 00:32:01,669
is making it easier for residents and staff

590
00:32:01,669 --> 00:32:04,247
to access information about property, infrastructure,

591
00:32:04,247 --> 00:32:06,670
zoning utilities, and more.

592
00:32:06,670 --> 00:32:08,455
I want to emphasize, the technology

593
00:32:08,455 --> 00:32:09,997
doesn't create these accomplishments.

594
00:32:09,997 --> 00:32:11,430
It is the people that do.

595
00:32:11,430 --> 00:32:13,347
This recognition reflects the outstanding work

596
00:32:13,347 --> 00:32:16,587
of our cybersecurity team, our GIS team, infrastructure

597
00:32:16,587 --> 00:32:19,493
and tech supports teams, as well as the many departments

598
00:32:19,493 --> 00:32:22,547
throughout the county that embrace technology and work

599
00:32:22,547 --> 00:32:24,547
collaboratively with IT.

600
00:32:26,697 --> 00:32:28,418
I want to specifically thank our partners

601
00:32:28,418 --> 00:32:32,270
at PC, Strategy and Innovation, Human services, library,

602
00:32:32,270 --> 00:32:35,167
and the Fire Marshal's Office for contributing

603
00:32:35,167 --> 00:32:37,372
their accomplishments to the Digital County Survey

604
00:32:37,372 --> 00:32:37,872
submission.

605
00:32:37,872 --> 00:32:40,187
Most importantly, a big thanks to you all,

606
00:32:40,187 --> 00:32:43,133
the board, and county management, for your leadership,

607
00:32:43,133 --> 00:32:45,407
support, and willingness to invest

608
00:32:45,407 --> 00:32:47,142
in technology and innovation.

609
00:32:47,142 --> 00:32:48,990
Our goal isn't to win awards.

610
00:32:48,990 --> 00:32:50,657
Our goal is to use technology to make

611
00:32:50,657 --> 00:32:53,133
Union County more efficient, accessible, and better able

612
00:32:53,133 --> 00:32:54,910
to serve our residents.

613
00:32:54,910 --> 00:32:58,467
I'm very proud of our IT team and the work ethic

614
00:32:58,467 --> 00:32:59,896
and terribly proud to lead them.

615
00:32:59,896 --> 00:33:01,979
I would like to ask our team members in attendance

616
00:33:01,979 --> 00:33:03,952
to come on up.

617
00:33:03,952 --> 00:33:07,231
Van Dale is our operations manager.

618
00:33:07,231 --> 00:33:09,800
Elizabeth is our business manager.

619
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,400
Sally is our GIS analyst.

620
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,513
Brett is our project manager.

621
00:33:13,513 --> 00:33:17,713
I want to thank all of them.

622
00:33:19,447 --> 00:33:21,447
[Applause]

623
00:34:25,544 --> 00:34:27,627
>> It is now time for consideration of any changes

624
00:34:27,627 --> 00:34:28,787
to our agenda.

625
00:34:28,787 --> 00:34:33,683
We have at least two brief edits to the agenda this evening.

626
00:34:33,683 --> 00:34:37,539
We can take a vote on both of them together, I believe.

627
00:34:37,539 --> 00:34:39,534
Is that right?

628
00:34:39,534 --> 00:34:41,534
Thank you.

629
00:34:41,829 --> 00:34:47,627
Staff has requested we add the following action item 26-433 --

630
00:34:47,627 --> 00:34:50,707
that is bid Award and construction contract Union

631
00:34:50,707 --> 00:34:54,587
County Group home renovation -- to adopt capital project

632
00:34:54,587 --> 00:34:59,387
ordinance number 319A and Capital Project ordinance number

633
00:35:01,237 --> 00:35:01,787
400.

634
00:35:01,787 --> 00:35:05,407
This is on our consent agenda, I believe, for tonight.

635
00:35:05,407 --> 00:35:12,700
And a copy of the revised action requested in the CPOs

636
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,150
has been displayed on the screens here in the room.

637
00:35:16,150 --> 00:35:17,557
Each of the commissioners should have

638
00:35:17,557 --> 00:35:24,143
a copy of the CPOs requested for adoption at your seats.

639
00:35:24,143 --> 00:35:26,155
The second item is, at staff's request,

640
00:35:26,155 --> 00:35:29,307
we've been asked to remove item 26-492,

641
00:35:29,307 --> 00:35:33,400
and that is the EMS station discussion from

642
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,577
tonight's business agenda, for discussion at a future meeting.

643
00:35:37,577 --> 00:35:41,475
Is there a motion to approve both revisions

644
00:35:41,475 --> 00:35:44,475
to the agenda, as proposed?

645
00:35:46,512 --> 00:35:49,763
>> I will make a motion that we approve as amended.

646
00:35:49,763 --> 00:35:51,550
>> Thank you, Madam Vice Chair.

647
00:35:51,550 --> 00:35:51,777
We have a motion.

648
00:35:51,777 --> 00:35:57,177
All those in favor of the motion, say aye.

649
00:35:57,980 --> 00:35:59,225
>> Aye.

650
00:35:59,225 --> 00:36:01,517
>> Are there any additional motions regarding revisions

651
00:36:01,517 --> 00:36:05,190
or amendments to either the consent or the business agenda?

652
00:36:05,190 --> 00:36:05,931
Okay.

653
00:36:05,931 --> 00:36:10,107
Is there a motion to approve the items listed

654
00:36:10,107 --> 00:36:12,507
on consent, as amended?

655
00:36:13,565 --> 00:36:15,773
>> I make a motion that we approve the consent agenda

656
00:36:15,773 --> 00:36:17,773
as amended.

657
00:36:19,396 --> 00:36:20,688
>> Thank you, Madam Vice Chair.

658
00:36:20,688 --> 00:36:23,449
All those in favor of the motion, say aye.

659
00:36:23,449 --> 00:36:25,960
So now we are at the business portion of our agenda.

660
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,760
The first item for business is item 26-500,

661
00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:34,506
a discussion regarding a cost of Community Services study.

662
00:36:34,506 --> 00:36:39,306
I will again recognize Lee Jenson, planning director,

663
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,227
for brief comments concerning this item.

664
00:36:41,227 --> 00:36:41,769
Welcome back.

665
00:36:41,769 --> 00:36:43,769
We missed you.

666
00:36:45,580 --> 00:36:47,980
>> Thank you, Mr. Chair.

667
00:36:50,787 --> 00:36:55,327
So this will be a pretty brief presentation,

668
00:36:55,327 --> 00:36:59,879
but maybe some discussion regarding this item, too.

669
00:36:59,879 --> 00:37:02,442
I believe County Manager Matthews

670
00:37:02,442 --> 00:37:04,487
asked me to place this item on the agenda

671
00:37:04,487 --> 00:37:08,347
to have some discussion around cost of community services

672
00:37:08,347 --> 00:37:08,952
studies.

673
00:37:08,952 --> 00:37:14,352
So what is a cost of community services study?

674
00:37:15,384 --> 00:37:19,770
They are used to determine fiscal contribution of existing

675
00:37:19,770 --> 00:37:20,547
local land uses.

676
00:37:20,547 --> 00:37:23,607
Essentially what they do is they put agricultural land

677
00:37:23,607 --> 00:37:27,207
on equal ground with residential, commercial,

678
00:37:27,947 --> 00:37:29,667
and industrial.

679
00:37:29,667 --> 00:37:32,540
They are a snapshot in time, and it

680
00:37:32,540 --> 00:37:35,820
doesn't help you predict future costs or revenues or anything

681
00:37:35,820 --> 00:37:35,683
like that.

682
00:37:35,683 --> 00:37:37,707
It's just a snapshot.

683
00:37:37,707 --> 00:37:42,670
But they are really used to help local officials make

684
00:37:42,670 --> 00:37:44,467
informed land use decisions.

685
00:37:45,707 --> 00:37:49,814
How do you go about doing one of these studies?

686
00:37:49,814 --> 00:37:53,400
You collect your data on local revenues and expenditures.

687
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:54,977
That essentially comes from your budget.

688
00:37:54,977 --> 00:37:57,870
Already got that information.

689
00:37:57,870 --> 00:38:00,163
Group that data together and allocate them

690
00:38:00,163 --> 00:38:03,763
to community's major land use categories.

691
00:38:05,306 --> 00:38:07,920
Most of these studies, they group these categories around

692
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,543
residential, business or commercial --

693
00:38:10,543 --> 00:38:13,403
they call them different things -- and agriculture.

694
00:38:13,403 --> 00:38:16,167
And then they calculate revenue to expenditure ratios

695
00:38:16,167 --> 00:38:19,167
for each land use category.

696
00:38:19,515 --> 00:38:21,967
And that's pretty much it.

697
00:38:21,967 --> 00:38:24,733
It's a pretty straightforward study.

698
00:38:24,733 --> 00:38:28,217
The difficult part is grouping that data

699
00:38:28,217 --> 00:38:32,190
around those particular land use categories, because you have got

700
00:38:32,190 --> 00:38:34,634
to get in and dig in to the different departments

701
00:38:34,634 --> 00:38:38,179
and figure out, okay, well, how should we

702
00:38:38,179 --> 00:38:40,539
allocate those as revenues and those as expenditures?

703
00:38:40,539 --> 00:38:45,892
The slide -- I know you have got a couple in your agenda pack,

704
00:38:45,892 --> 00:38:48,947
maybe 1 or 2 that were sent to you by email.

705
00:38:48,947 --> 00:38:52,564
But the county actually did one back in 2004.

706
00:38:52,564 --> 00:38:56,323
And that was done by Jeffrey Dorfman.

707
00:38:56,323 --> 00:39:01,287
I think at the time, he was in the University of Georgia.

708
00:39:01,287 --> 00:39:03,515
Now he is at North Carolina State University.

709
00:39:03,515 --> 00:39:05,537
He is still doing these.

710
00:39:05,537 --> 00:39:10,370
What it found in 2004 was that, for every dollar

711
00:39:10,370 --> 00:39:12,437
in expenditures, residential returned $0.77.

712
00:39:14,747 --> 00:39:19,257
Commercial and industrial -- they were grouped together --

713
00:39:19,257 --> 00:39:22,257
that returned $2.44, and AG returned $4.13.

714
00:39:25,410 --> 00:39:27,441
The county's example --

715
00:39:27,941 --> 00:39:29,899
I think the two recent ones from North Carolina

716
00:39:29,899 --> 00:39:31,527
were the ones that you received.

717
00:39:31,527 --> 00:39:35,127
Those were Johnston and Wake Counties.

718
00:39:36,787 --> 00:39:38,770
Wake also did a breakdown such as this.

719
00:39:38,770 --> 00:39:41,698
I don't think Johnston did.

720
00:39:41,698 --> 00:39:46,130
But Union County, back in 2004, the average break even value

721
00:39:46,130 --> 00:39:50,163
for a home, what the home had to be valued at to essentially

722
00:39:50,163 --> 00:39:52,563
break even on that residential --

723
00:39:52,563 --> 00:39:56,763
on that expenditure versus revenue side was $204,000.

724
00:39:58,563 --> 00:40:00,664
I just threw these two bullets in here

725
00:40:00,664 --> 00:40:02,331
because I thought they were interesting.

726
00:40:02,331 --> 00:40:06,700
Then it went further and they started looking at, will,

727
00:40:06,700 --> 00:40:11,873
what if the -- well, what if the home has kids?

728
00:40:11,873 --> 00:40:17,340
Back in 2004, the average break even for a two child home was

729
00:40:17,340 --> 00:40:18,562
$667,000.

730
00:40:18,562 --> 00:40:23,962
I don't have these in the slide, but I

731
00:40:24,227 --> 00:40:29,270
looked at Johnston and Wake's, and their ratios

732
00:40:31,218 --> 00:40:34,670
for every dollar in revenue for residential,

733
00:40:34,670 --> 00:40:38,620
for every dollar in revenue, the county spends $1.43.

734
00:40:38,620 --> 00:40:42,262
For commercial, for every dollar, they spend $0.23.

735
00:40:43,355 --> 00:40:48,456
And then for every dollar in revenue for ag,

736
00:40:48,456 --> 00:40:50,456
they spend $0.81.

737
00:40:53,346 --> 00:40:56,430
>> Will you repeat the last line?

738
00:40:56,430 --> 00:40:58,888
>> So for every dollar that the county receives in revenue,

739
00:40:58,888 --> 00:41:00,888
they spend $0.81.

740
00:41:01,270 --> 00:41:04,270
Wake -- again, very similar.

741
00:41:04,242 --> 00:41:06,750
For residential, for every dollar of revenue

742
00:41:06,750 --> 00:41:08,750
the county spent $1.09.

743
00:41:08,947 --> 00:41:14,347
Then for ag, it was $0.24 was what they spent.

744
00:41:15,147 --> 00:41:17,547
For commercial, it was $0.08.

745
00:41:19,270 --> 00:41:22,407
It seems to be that, on some of these more recent studies,

746
00:41:22,407 --> 00:41:24,223
it is kind of flipped.

747
00:41:24,223 --> 00:41:29,953
The older ones like this, ag and commercial, they both --

748
00:41:29,953 --> 00:41:34,722
if you want to look at it that way, they both made money.

749
00:41:34,722 --> 00:41:36,301
The ag was a little bit more.

750
00:41:36,301 --> 00:41:38,384
It seems like it has flipped a little bit in favor

751
00:41:38,384 --> 00:41:44,108
of the commercial, but they are still the revenue generators,

752
00:41:44,108 --> 00:41:45,707
and the residential is not.

753
00:41:45,707 --> 00:41:47,527
These are relatively --

754
00:41:47,527 --> 00:41:50,310
I want to say cheap studies to do.

755
00:41:50,310 --> 00:41:51,349
They are not very expensive.

756
00:41:51,349 --> 00:41:55,635
There is a number of firms in North Carolina that do them.

757
00:41:55,635 --> 00:42:01,241
Again, I think that Dr. Dorfman still does a few.

758
00:42:01,241 --> 00:42:02,907
There's a couple of consulting firms

759
00:42:02,907 --> 00:42:04,773
that I know of that do them.

760
00:42:04,773 --> 00:42:08,187
There's another group out of Mount Olive University

761
00:42:08,187 --> 00:42:09,910
that does them, too.

762
00:42:09,910 --> 00:42:13,635
I will be happy to answer any questions about those

763
00:42:13,635 --> 00:42:18,435
or take any further direction from the board.

764
00:42:19,108 --> 00:42:20,608
>> So Lee, I have got some comments.

765
00:42:20,608 --> 00:42:22,191
I have been waiting for this one right

766
00:42:22,191 --> 00:42:26,360
here for a long time because it has been a long time coming.

767
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,920
I'm glad that you brought up the --

768
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,292
I think it was the '04 study?

769
00:42:34,891 --> 00:42:36,793
>> Yes, sir.

770
00:42:36,793 --> 00:42:38,376
>> Because that has been 22 years now.

771
00:42:38,376 --> 00:42:41,444
A lot of things have changed, I'm sure,

772
00:42:41,444 --> 00:42:42,734
since that study was done.

773
00:42:42,734 --> 00:42:47,576
I'm glad that you brought up the results of the Wake study

774
00:42:47,576 --> 00:42:51,435
in the Johnston County study, because I had notes

775
00:42:51,435 --> 00:42:52,111
on that, too.

776
00:42:52,111 --> 00:42:53,611
I don't want this point to get lost,

777
00:42:53,611 --> 00:42:56,567
because you mentioned this, and you said that the Johnston

778
00:42:56,567 --> 00:43:00,680
County -- understand, Johnston County is a much similar,

779
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,331
much better comparison to Union County than what Wake County

780
00:43:03,331 --> 00:43:07,531
would be, as far as size, population,

781
00:43:11,656 --> 00:43:14,227
and a number of other socio economic factors.

782
00:43:14,227 --> 00:43:16,171
If you look, they broke it down, and they

783
00:43:16,171 --> 00:43:19,670
looked at residential, commercial, then agriculture.

784
00:43:19,670 --> 00:43:21,520
What they are doing is they are comparing,

785
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,670
and they are saying, for every $1 of ad valorem

786
00:43:25,670 --> 00:43:30,659
tax revenue that comes into, in this case, Johnston County,

787
00:43:30,659 --> 00:43:33,467
for every $1 that you are paying out

788
00:43:33,467 --> 00:43:36,467
$1.43 in the cost of services.

789
00:43:37,787 --> 00:43:41,107
So that's not paying for itself.

790
00:43:41,107 --> 00:43:44,587
Obviously, we have known for quite some time

791
00:43:44,587 --> 00:43:48,957
that residential growth does not pay for itself in terms of cost

792
00:43:48,957 --> 00:43:51,955
to serve, because there's a number of things that have to be

793
00:43:51,955 --> 00:43:53,855
funded to serve that residence.

794
00:43:53,855 --> 00:43:58,550
So you have got schools, for example.

795
00:43:58,552 --> 00:44:00,381
Public schools is a big one.

796
00:44:00,381 --> 00:44:03,381
You have got sheriff's deputies.

797
00:44:05,453 --> 00:44:07,453
You've got fire.

798
00:44:08,450 --> 00:44:08,754
You've got EMS.

799
00:44:08,754 --> 00:44:10,171
We have to have those services in.

800
00:44:10,171 --> 00:44:11,243
You can make the case that residential

801
00:44:11,243 --> 00:44:13,947
is taking out of the bucket more than what they are putting in.

802
00:44:13,947 --> 00:44:18,147
If you compare that to, say, commercial,

803
00:44:18,235 --> 00:44:20,711
at least the Johnston studies showed

804
00:44:20,711 --> 00:44:24,590
that, for every $1 that that is bringing in in ad valorem

805
00:44:24,590 --> 00:44:27,659
tax revenue, they are spending out $0.23.

806
00:44:28,747 --> 00:44:32,347
Agriculture -- you mentioned this --

807
00:44:34,715 --> 00:44:37,115
$1 ad valorem tax revenue, $0.81,

808
00:44:37,173 --> 00:44:41,203
as far as the expenses or the costs to serve.

809
00:44:41,203 --> 00:44:46,320
Again, I don't want that to get lost because, right now,

810
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:47,857
we are sitting --

811
00:44:47,857 --> 00:44:49,899
this board has made numerous comments about this,

812
00:44:49,899 --> 00:44:53,190
but we are sitting at at least 90% residential.

813
00:44:53,190 --> 00:44:56,703
I mean, we are teetering probably 90% residential

814
00:44:56,703 --> 00:44:58,874
and then 10% everything else.

815
00:44:58,874 --> 00:45:02,130
It's just my opinion, but I don't

816
00:45:02,130 --> 00:45:04,347
feel as though that trajectory is sustainable.

817
00:45:04,347 --> 00:45:06,867
It's not sustainable for the people that we serve.

818
00:45:06,867 --> 00:45:09,867
It's not sustainable for taxpayers,

819
00:45:11,718 --> 00:45:13,301
because essentially what we are saying

820
00:45:13,301 --> 00:45:15,487
is, 90% of all the taxes being paid are coming from the people.

821
00:45:15,487 --> 00:45:16,893
We need to diversify that.

822
00:45:16,893 --> 00:45:22,893
I look at this study as an opportunity, an opportunity

823
00:45:24,111 --> 00:45:27,884
for us to get concrete, up to date numbers regarding,

824
00:45:27,884 --> 00:45:30,284
well, Union County specifics.

825
00:45:32,190 --> 00:45:34,285
Where do we match up on residential?

826
00:45:34,285 --> 00:45:36,932
Where do we match up on commercial and agriculture?

827
00:45:36,932 --> 00:45:39,838
We know that commercial and agriculture are probably

828
00:45:39,838 --> 00:45:40,880
going to be in the black.

829
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:46,236
But we also know that we are losing, as far as residential

830
00:45:46,236 --> 00:45:46,976
is concerned.

831
00:45:46,976 --> 00:45:49,773
So we have to diversify.

832
00:45:49,773 --> 00:45:55,507
And I think that it is important for the board to consider doing

833
00:45:55,507 --> 00:45:58,670
the study, and I think it is more important that we consider

834
00:45:58,670 --> 00:46:01,307
doing it -- or getting that study performed by a third

835
00:46:01,307 --> 00:46:04,907
party, instead of doing something in-house,

836
00:46:05,367 --> 00:46:07,867
because I think that if we have a third party come in and do

837
00:46:07,867 --> 00:46:11,430
an independent study, then that takes away any kind of question

838
00:46:11,430 --> 00:46:17,486
about any kind of improprieties that may have taken place here.

839
00:46:17,486 --> 00:46:19,795
I think that, number one, is very important.

840
00:46:19,795 --> 00:46:23,970
The fellow that did the study -- and I can't remember his name,

841
00:46:23,970 --> 00:46:26,197
but I think he probably made a wise decision moving from

842
00:46:26,197 --> 00:46:28,597
Georgia to NC State.

843
00:46:28,946 --> 00:46:34,607
What I will say is, doing this study has got at least three

844
00:46:34,607 --> 00:46:36,123
benefits -- at least three.

845
00:46:36,123 --> 00:46:40,353
Number one, to your point -- you mentioned this --

846
00:46:40,353 --> 00:46:45,147
the study can certainly help the county in making decisions

847
00:46:45,147 --> 00:46:49,691
regarding land use decisions and things of that nature.

848
00:46:49,691 --> 00:46:52,910
That's benefit number one.

849
00:46:52,690 --> 00:46:55,857
But I think, too, that this also provides us

850
00:46:55,857 --> 00:46:57,357
an opportunity to offer some benefit

851
00:46:57,357 --> 00:46:58,440
to our municipal partners.

852
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:02,907
And the reason why I say that is because many municipalities --

853
00:47:02,907 --> 00:47:05,760
there are some exceptions, but many municipalities,

854
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:10,560
they don't have things like utilities or --

855
00:47:11,784 --> 00:47:14,105
I mean, they are not paying for school systems.

856
00:47:14,105 --> 00:47:17,270
Some municipalities, I think, are

857
00:47:17,270 --> 00:47:19,930
more apt to look at a residential project

858
00:47:19,930 --> 00:47:22,907
and look at it and say, okay, we are

859
00:47:22,907 --> 00:47:26,270
going to press forward with this residential project,

860
00:47:26,270 --> 00:47:27,771
regardless of the cost, because that

861
00:47:27,771 --> 00:47:29,960
is putting bottom line into our coffers

862
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,960
with ad valorem tax revenue.

863
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:37,890
But I think there's a tendency to ignore the cost to serve.

864
00:47:37,890 --> 00:47:42,697
When folks make the decisions to do things like that,

865
00:47:42,697 --> 00:47:45,155
it is still the people that we all serve that pay the bill.

866
00:47:45,155 --> 00:47:47,507
In short, we are all subsidizing growth.

867
00:47:47,507 --> 00:47:49,467
We are all subsidizing residential growth.

868
00:47:49,467 --> 00:47:51,380
And that's what this study is showing

869
00:47:51,380 --> 00:47:53,576
is the amount that we are subsidizing.

870
00:47:53,576 --> 00:47:57,776
So you might get two separate bills

871
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:00,227
if you live in a municipality.

872
00:48:00,227 --> 00:48:03,277
But bottom line is, you are still paying it.

873
00:48:03,277 --> 00:48:07,439
I think the second benefit is with municipal partners.

874
00:48:07,439 --> 00:48:10,529
We can show exactly what that cost to serve is.

875
00:48:10,529 --> 00:48:12,977
And maybe we can foster better collaboration

876
00:48:12,977 --> 00:48:18,283
with an overall vision for the county that would

877
00:48:18,283 --> 00:48:19,491
include those municipalities.

878
00:48:19,491 --> 00:48:23,915
The third thing is, I think that this provides us benefit when

879
00:48:23,915 --> 00:48:29,806
we discuss things with our state delegation, so our state

880
00:48:29,806 --> 00:48:30,306
legislature.

881
00:48:30,306 --> 00:48:32,473
I think this is going to give us those hard numbers,

882
00:48:32,473 --> 00:48:37,614
and I think we need those numbers, too --

883
00:48:37,614 --> 00:48:40,550
let me clarify -- because what we have seen in recent years,

884
00:48:40,550 --> 00:48:45,208
all of us on this board have seen these bills, growth bills,

885
00:48:45,208 --> 00:48:47,319
like House Bill 765, for example,

886
00:48:47,319 --> 00:48:51,470
and there has been many others where it has tried

887
00:48:51,470 --> 00:48:54,647
to incentivize residential construction throughout --

888
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:56,652
all throughout the state.

889
00:48:56,652 --> 00:49:00,899
And so I think it's important that we have this information so

890
00:49:00,899 --> 00:49:05,337
that, in our discussions with our state legislators,

891
00:49:05,337 --> 00:49:10,737
we can provide them with the information and have,

892
00:49:11,910 --> 00:49:14,814
well, a lot more ammunition at our disposal to make our case.

893
00:49:14,814 --> 00:49:19,963
So one question I had is, is there a way --

894
00:49:19,963 --> 00:49:22,155
I'm sure that we can, because I just

895
00:49:22,155 --> 00:49:23,707
assumed that what we would be doing

896
00:49:23,707 --> 00:49:28,570
is going to be similar to Johnston, the Johnston study

897
00:49:28,570 --> 00:49:29,307
that was in our agenda packet.

898
00:49:29,307 --> 00:49:30,564
I'm good with that.

899
00:49:30,564 --> 00:49:33,475
But I also -- and this may be an additional cost,

900
00:49:33,475 --> 00:49:38,701
but I would like to explore defining that break-even point,

901
00:49:38,701 --> 00:49:41,701
as we did in '04.

902
00:49:44,420 --> 00:49:48,667
I would like to know what the current break even point

903
00:49:48,667 --> 00:49:53,539
is, so if we can inquire about something about that.

904
00:49:53,539 --> 00:49:58,939
Is there any other questions or comments for Lee?

905
00:49:59,715 --> 00:50:00,590
>> I have a question.

906
00:50:00,590 --> 00:50:04,150
How long would it take to complete the study?

907
00:50:04,150 --> 00:50:04,303
>> It really depends on the consultant.

908
00:50:04,303 --> 00:50:06,581
I know Wake County, and talking with them,

909
00:50:06,581 --> 00:50:09,164
it took their consultant about a year to complete their study.

910
00:50:09,164 --> 00:50:11,564
They had some issues.

911
00:50:11,635 --> 00:50:16,255
I don't think Johnston's took quite that long.

912
00:50:16,255 --> 00:50:17,922
I think that would be probably something

913
00:50:17,922 --> 00:50:21,727
we would put in place, if we put together a scope of work,

914
00:50:21,727 --> 00:50:28,327
we would want it done within a certain period of time.

915
00:50:34,128 --> 00:50:38,207
>> Any other questions or comments for Lee?

916
00:50:38,207 --> 00:50:40,707
>> Just out of curiosity, what all would be revealed in this

917
00:50:40,707 --> 00:50:41,394
study?

918
00:50:41,394 --> 00:50:46,194
Would we actually get, like I see in 2004,

919
00:50:48,253 --> 00:50:51,338
the price of the home with the family with two children,

920
00:50:51,338 --> 00:50:56,738
the break even is $667,000, which seems crazy to me

921
00:50:59,835 --> 00:51:00,611
for 2004.

922
00:51:00,611 --> 00:51:04,987
Would we get that figure, along with the figures

923
00:51:04,987 --> 00:51:09,470
like you just quoted us for Johnston County, the residential

924
00:51:09,470 --> 00:51:13,247
compared to the commercial compared to ag?

925
00:51:13,732 --> 00:51:16,107
>> I believe the Wake County study included some of those

926
00:51:16,107 --> 00:51:17,400
break even points in.

927
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:21,204
So that is a possibility to get.

928
00:51:22,117 --> 00:51:24,117
>> Thank you.

929
00:51:26,271 --> 00:51:27,729
>> Just one quick question for you.

930
00:51:27,729 --> 00:51:30,827
So the chairman mentioned that we sit at roughly 90%

931
00:51:30,827 --> 00:51:32,523
residential to 10% everything else.

932
00:51:32,523 --> 00:51:37,600
I have heard experts say a healthy ratio is

933
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:39,600
70%, 30%, 60%, 40%.

934
00:51:40,467 --> 00:51:46,749
In your opinion, where do you think we should be sitting?

935
00:51:46,749 --> 00:51:48,307
>> That's a loaded question.

936
00:51:48,307 --> 00:51:51,595
A lot of it depends on philosophy and where

937
00:51:51,595 --> 00:51:52,847
you want to go as a county.

938
00:51:52,847 --> 00:51:57,647
There's probably places that would be fine at 90/10.

939
00:52:00,147 --> 00:52:06,977
It's really your sort of choice as to which way you want to go.

940
00:52:06,977 --> 00:52:12,977
I would say that 70/30, 60/40 ratio is probably in the sweet

941
00:52:16,878 --> 00:52:17,800
spot.

942
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,383
>> The hardest thing is to move the needle when you are 90/10.

943
00:52:20,383 --> 00:52:23,186
You can add a significant amount of investment for commercial

944
00:52:23,186 --> 00:52:25,519
and you are only going to move that needle a little bit.

945
00:52:25,519 --> 00:52:31,227
To get to 70/30 is going to take a long time and a lot of land

946
00:52:31,227 --> 00:52:32,587
use decisions to get there.

947
00:52:32,587 --> 00:52:36,187
But I would agree with Lee.

948
00:52:36,642 --> 00:52:40,242
It is probably in that 70/30, 60/40 range.

949
00:52:41,692 --> 00:52:44,670
I think that is an aspiration, but something that's going

950
00:52:44,670 --> 00:52:47,667
to take a long , long time.

951
00:52:50,717 --> 00:52:53,117
>> Anything else for Lee?

952
00:52:53,327 --> 00:52:56,343
Lee, where do we stand right now?

953
00:52:56,343 --> 00:52:59,419
At this point, have we identified, then, aside from --

954
00:52:59,419 --> 00:53:03,397
do we have a list of folks that we can contact,

955
00:53:03,397 --> 00:53:06,575
maybe that did the Johnston study and the Wake study,

956
00:53:06,575 --> 00:53:10,247
or perhaps this individual that did our previous study?

957
00:53:10,247 --> 00:53:13,614
Well, probably the Wake study would

958
00:53:13,614 --> 00:53:19,614
be more appropriate since it has got a break-even point.

959
00:53:22,150 --> 00:53:22,358
>> I'm sure the folks who did the Johnston study can do that.

960
00:53:22,358 --> 00:53:23,749
Once you do the first part and group

961
00:53:23,749 --> 00:53:26,169
the revenues and expenditures by land use, the rest of it

962
00:53:26,169 --> 00:53:27,419
just kind of falls into place.

963
00:53:27,419 --> 00:53:31,619
I'm sure they can do it, too.

964
00:53:32,531 --> 00:53:34,239
>> So what would be our next steps, then,

965
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:35,580
if the board wanted to proceed?

966
00:53:35,580 --> 00:53:39,780
Should we develop a scope of work?

967
00:53:40,183 --> 00:53:42,600
>> I think we develop a scope of work and get maybe 3 or 4

968
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,944
different providers and get some costs.

969
00:53:45,944 --> 00:53:46,444
>> Okay.

970
00:53:46,444 --> 00:53:47,400
Well, I'm willing to make that motion.

971
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:48,623
I will make the motion to direct staff

972
00:53:48,623 --> 00:53:51,720
to develop the costs or the scope of work

973
00:53:51,720 --> 00:53:54,270
for a third party or independent study

974
00:53:54,270 --> 00:53:59,847
to be performed for the cost of community services in Union

975
00:53:59,847 --> 00:54:00,347
County.

976
00:54:00,347 --> 00:54:04,547
That would include residential, commercial, and agriculture,

977
00:54:04,571 --> 00:54:08,771
as well as the residential break-even point,

978
00:54:13,458 --> 00:54:15,000
as we saw in the wake study, and also

979
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:20,287
direct staff to bring us back costs and options for the study.

980
00:54:20,287 --> 00:54:22,687
Does that cover it?

981
00:54:25,369 --> 00:54:25,869
>> It does.

982
00:54:25,869 --> 00:54:27,440
You mentioned scope of work, in addition to costs,

983
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:29,747
and I assume all the other terms and conditions

984
00:54:29,747 --> 00:54:33,947
that might be necessary in those agreements?

985
00:54:34,781 --> 00:54:35,373
>> Yes, sir.

986
00:54:35,373 --> 00:54:36,290
That would be correct.

987
00:54:36,290 --> 00:54:40,550
I would include other terms and conditions in that motion.

988
00:54:40,550 --> 00:54:44,149
>> I am here on behalf of the terms and conditions.

989
00:54:44,149 --> 00:54:45,351
>> Thank you, sir.

990
00:54:45,351 --> 00:54:46,255
There is a motion.

991
00:54:46,255 --> 00:54:47,463
Any discussion on the motion?

992
00:54:47,463 --> 00:54:52,863
All those in favor of the motion, say aye.

993
00:54:53,454 --> 00:54:55,324
Thank you, Lee.

994
00:54:55,324 --> 00:55:00,362
All right, it is your night to night, Lee.

995
00:55:00,362 --> 00:55:03,107
Our next item is 26-four seven, discussion regarding minor

996
00:55:03,107 --> 00:55:04,332
subdivision.

997
00:55:04,332 --> 00:55:06,732
Once again, welcome, Lee.

998
00:55:12,734 --> 00:55:13,609
>> This is an update.

999
00:55:13,609 --> 00:55:16,203
Back in -- I think it was November or December of last

1000
00:55:16,203 --> 00:55:21,983
year, you asked me to work with the Land Use board to come back

1001
00:55:21,983 --> 00:55:26,783
with some recommendations on the minor subdivision process.

1002
00:55:27,947 --> 00:55:29,493
Kind of everything was on the table.

1003
00:55:29,493 --> 00:55:35,493
So really, took a deep dive on three separate items.

1004
00:55:35,827 --> 00:55:42,427
One was a discussion of the definition of lot in section

1005
00:55:45,507 --> 00:55:49,292
105.130, discussion of the minor versus major lot threshold

1006
00:55:49,292 --> 00:55:52,293
and the parent parcel date, and the idea of a family subdivision

1007
00:55:52,293 --> 00:55:54,293
exception.

1008
00:55:54,907 --> 00:55:57,907
I'll get my notes here.

1009
00:55:58,827 --> 00:56:04,827
So the first item that the Land Use Board undertook

1010
00:56:05,179 --> 00:56:08,240
was this idea of definition of lot.

1011
00:56:08,240 --> 00:56:14,840
The issue there is sort of this second, really long sentence

1012
00:56:16,981 --> 00:56:18,803
that's highlighted.

1013
00:56:18,803 --> 00:56:20,511
The first part is pretty straightforward.

1014
00:56:20,511 --> 00:56:24,602
It's a parcel of land whose boundaries

1015
00:56:24,602 --> 00:56:26,560
have been established by some legal instrument.

1016
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,947
However, that second kind of highlighted text there says,

1017
00:56:29,947 --> 00:56:33,594
public body with the authority of eminent domain basically puts

1018
00:56:33,594 --> 00:56:37,794
a road through a piece of property ,

1019
00:56:41,370 --> 00:56:45,103
and it effectively can't be used as one piece, then,

1020
00:56:45,103 --> 00:56:47,587
for the purposes of the development ordinance,

1021
00:56:47,587 --> 00:56:49,987
it is two lots.

1022
00:56:51,190 --> 00:56:53,232
The The reason that is important is,

1023
00:56:53,232 --> 00:56:55,149
when we start getting into some other sections

1024
00:56:55,149 --> 00:56:58,413
on talking about what that means and how you develop property,

1025
00:56:58,413 --> 00:57:03,277
then, essentially, it becomes two sort of parent parcels,

1026
00:57:03,277 --> 00:57:05,277
if you will.

1027
00:57:07,627 --> 00:57:12,370
And the way that kind of carries over into minor subdivisions

1028
00:57:12,370 --> 00:57:18,370
is, today, a minor subdivision is two eight lots out

1029
00:57:21,356 --> 00:57:22,148
of a parent parcel.

1030
00:57:22,148 --> 00:57:23,122
You take this definition into account,

1031
00:57:23,122 --> 00:57:25,133
and you have an existing road that --

1032
00:57:25,133 --> 00:57:31,133
or it could be a new road that dot --

1033
00:57:31,321 --> 00:57:34,480
DOT built, but most of the it's an existing that splits a parent

1034
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:36,295
parcel, then you could essentially do 16 --

1035
00:57:36,295 --> 00:57:37,178
it's one road.

1036
00:57:37,178 --> 00:57:41,189
You could do 16 lots, eight on one side, eight on the other.

1037
00:57:41,189 --> 00:57:46,462
That was the idea here it was to amend this to do away

1038
00:57:46,462 --> 00:57:48,862
with that second sentence.

1039
00:57:49,266 --> 00:57:53,756
It wouldn't say that somebody couldn't develop their property.

1040
00:57:53,756 --> 00:57:56,363
They could just -- it would just be a major subdivision,

1041
00:57:56,363 --> 00:57:57,780
at that point.

1042
00:57:57,780 --> 00:57:58,747
If they want to do more lots, it would

1043
00:57:58,747 --> 00:58:01,240
be a major instead of a minor.

1044
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:03,393
But we took this to the land use board.

1045
00:58:03,393 --> 00:58:09,187
We had a lot of discussion over several different meetings,

1046
00:58:09,187 --> 00:58:13,104
and ultimately, the land use board's consensus

1047
00:58:13,104 --> 00:58:16,239
was to keep the definition as is, to not change it.

1048
00:58:16,239 --> 00:58:18,489
I wanted to bring that back and give you their update.

1049
00:58:18,489 --> 00:58:21,555
I am also here to take any direction you

1050
00:58:21,555 --> 00:58:24,947
might give as far as any text amendments

1051
00:58:24,947 --> 00:58:26,632
you might want to see.

1052
00:58:26,632 --> 00:58:32,107
I will stop at the lot before I move on to the next one,

1053
00:58:32,107 --> 00:58:35,707
if there's any discussion around that.

1054
00:58:38,131 --> 00:58:41,731
>> Any questions or comments for Lee?

1055
00:58:41,815 --> 00:58:46,150
>> One comment -- and full disclosure, Lee,

1056
00:58:46,870 --> 00:58:50,887
I challenged Lee with this situation earlier today.

1057
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:55,685
I found a parcel of land that is divided by two roads.

1058
00:58:55,685 --> 00:59:01,147
I said, so, in this situation -- we pulled up the parcel --

1059
00:59:01,147 --> 00:59:05,635
how many lots could be put on this parcel before it is

1060
00:59:05,635 --> 00:59:08,350
considered a major subdivision?

1061
00:59:08,768 --> 00:59:11,168
And that number is 24.

1062
00:59:12,328 --> 00:59:15,507
We are not perfectly locked in at 16

1063
00:59:15,507 --> 00:59:17,907
under the current definition.

1064
00:59:21,297 --> 00:59:23,297
>> That's correct.

1065
00:59:27,397 --> 00:59:29,689
>> You know, we have had a lot of discussion about this

1066
00:59:29,689 --> 00:59:33,889
definition, and Lee, I appreciate the explanation

1067
00:59:35,746 --> 00:59:37,387
and you kind of pointing this out,

1068
00:59:37,387 --> 00:59:40,866
about how important this definition is,

1069
00:59:40,866 --> 00:59:44,887
because, to your point, this definition is going to affect

1070
00:59:44,887 --> 00:59:48,847
things that we are fixing to talk about with other aspects

1071
00:59:48,847 --> 00:59:50,847
of minors.

1072
00:59:50,867 --> 00:59:56,761
But bottom line is, we define a minor currently as eight lots

1073
00:59:56,761 --> 00:59:58,761
or less, correct?

1074
01:00:00,763 --> 01:00:02,763
>> Correct.

1075
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:05,894
>> What this sentence does that is in bold right here,

1076
01:00:05,894 --> 01:00:07,311
it essentially creates a loophole.

1077
01:00:07,311 --> 01:00:09,827
It's a legal loophole, where you can

1078
01:00:09,827 --> 01:00:14,970
have essentially, in the case that the commissioner just

1079
01:00:14,970 --> 01:00:15,827
brought up, you could have 24 homes

1080
01:00:15,827 --> 01:00:21,227
that are being built under the minor subdivision rules.

1081
01:00:22,368 --> 01:00:24,368
Correct?

1082
01:00:24,612 --> 01:00:26,612
>> That's right.

1083
01:00:26,881 --> 01:00:27,703
>> I mean, I guess when we previously talked about it,

1084
01:00:27,703 --> 01:00:31,270
I always had 16 in my head, because we have got a, and you

1085
01:00:31,270 --> 01:00:36,152
think eight on one side and -- got a road,

1086
01:00:36,152 --> 01:00:38,444
and you think eight on one side and eight on the other.

1087
01:00:38,444 --> 01:00:39,315
But that's a lot.

1088
01:00:39,315 --> 01:00:44,787
I think at some point, we have to sit here and say, okay, well,

1089
01:00:44,787 --> 01:00:47,307
the definition of a minor subdivision,

1090
01:00:47,307 --> 01:00:51,946
as it stands today, currently, is eight lots or less.

1091
01:00:51,946 --> 01:00:56,146
Why are we allowing, in this case, 24,

1092
01:00:58,610 --> 01:01:01,270
under the same rules as -- and the rules are different to.

1093
01:01:01,270 --> 01:01:05,227
The requirements for minors are different to.

1094
01:01:07,503 --> 01:01:09,670
There's going to be differences there with all kinds

1095
01:01:09,670 --> 01:01:10,775
of different things.

1096
01:01:10,775 --> 01:01:13,297
Lee, you can probably speak to it

1097
01:01:13,297 --> 01:01:14,922
right off the top of your head, but I'm

1098
01:01:14,922 --> 01:01:18,291
thinking buffers and setbacks and all kinds of requirements

1099
01:01:18,291 --> 01:01:18,979
there.

1100
01:01:18,979 --> 01:01:26,179
I think, at some point, we have to understand that eight lots

1101
01:01:30,467 --> 01:01:32,854
or less is a minor, and anything above that,

1102
01:01:32,854 --> 01:01:35,604
anything above that threshold -- we have got more to talk about

1103
01:01:35,604 --> 01:01:37,187
here in a few minutes about threshold.

1104
01:01:37,187 --> 01:01:41,270
But anything above that threshold is not a minor.

1105
01:01:41,270 --> 01:01:44,227
It is, at that point, a major.

1106
01:01:44,227 --> 01:01:48,733
And so I look at this, and my thought

1107
01:01:48,733 --> 01:01:54,133
is that we have to clean up this language.

1108
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:57,248
I will open it up for discussion,

1109
01:01:57,248 --> 01:02:01,499
but I would be in favor of changing this language

1110
01:02:01,499 --> 01:02:05,699
so that it is much more straightforward,

1111
01:02:06,564 --> 01:02:13,164
and we have a minor subdivision, and this loophole is closed.

1112
01:02:18,627 --> 01:02:22,827
Any comments from the board regarding that?

1113
01:02:23,907 --> 01:02:26,907
Thoughts about this particular definition?

1114
01:02:33,278 --> 01:02:33,778
>> No.

1115
01:02:33,778 --> 01:02:36,627
I'm going to be in agreement with you on,

1116
01:02:36,627 --> 01:02:38,850
I do believe the language does need

1117
01:02:38,850 --> 01:02:41,347
to be cleared up because there's too much fluctuation in it.

1118
01:02:41,347 --> 01:02:47,347
What we would describe as a major subdivision and, case

1119
01:02:49,141 --> 01:02:53,341
in point, the commissioner's research today showing 24,

1120
01:02:57,625 --> 01:03:00,287
and their not having to abide by the same rules and regulations

1121
01:03:00,287 --> 01:03:01,204
as other subdivisions.

1122
01:03:01,204 --> 01:03:07,235
I think we need to narrow the scope and clean this up,

1123
01:03:07,235 --> 01:03:08,684
definitely.

1124
01:03:08,684 --> 01:03:09,119
>> It just doesn't seem fair to me that you are getting a major

1125
01:03:09,119 --> 01:03:11,427
subdivision with the requirements of a minor

1126
01:03:11,427 --> 01:03:13,427
subdivision.

1127
01:03:15,867 --> 01:03:20,670
Lee, what do you want to do?

1128
01:03:21,536 --> 01:03:25,128
Do you want to take these one at a time and come back to them?

1129
01:03:25,128 --> 01:03:25,226
>> I think one at a time would be fine,

1130
01:03:25,226 --> 01:03:27,101
or if you want to do it all as one, I'm open.

1131
01:03:27,101 --> 01:03:31,495
It might be easier to do them one at a time.

1132
01:03:31,495 --> 01:03:32,245
>> We will listen.

1133
01:03:32,245 --> 01:03:34,899
I will make that motion that we direct staff to revise

1134
01:03:34,899 --> 01:03:40,299
the current definition in our UDO of a lot,

1135
01:03:42,903 --> 01:03:47,227
eliminating the language that would allow for a minor

1136
01:03:47,227 --> 01:03:49,627
subdivision to exceed --

1137
01:03:53,667 --> 01:03:55,585
I'm trying to think about how to word this --

1138
01:03:55,585 --> 01:03:59,747
to exceed eight lots on one side of the road and then eight lots

1139
01:03:59,747 --> 01:04:04,547
on the other -- how am I doing?

1140
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:09,400
Help me out, here.

1141
01:04:10,511 --> 01:04:10,518
>> I think you are doing great.

1142
01:04:10,518 --> 01:04:11,935
One thing I might suggest is that,

1143
01:04:11,935 --> 01:04:14,270
rather than be tied into changing only the definition

1144
01:04:14,270 --> 01:04:20,443
of a lot, that we might be freed to look at some other potential

1145
01:04:20,443 --> 01:04:25,513
fixes to close that loophole, if they all arrive at the same

1146
01:04:25,513 --> 01:04:28,440
point of eliminating the loophole that allows you to get

1147
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:32,400
more than eight lots per --

1148
01:04:35,846 --> 01:04:36,346
>> Okay.

1149
01:04:36,346 --> 01:04:37,471
I think that's a good idea.

1150
01:04:37,471 --> 01:04:39,575
I think that's probably the wisest thing to do.

1151
01:04:39,575 --> 01:04:42,307
I will amend the motion, then, to direct staff

1152
01:04:42,307 --> 01:04:47,707
to bring us back strategies for mitigating that situation

1153
01:04:48,203 --> 01:04:52,987
where you have lots on both sides of the road that

1154
01:04:52,987 --> 01:04:54,875
still constitute a minor.

1155
01:04:54,875 --> 01:04:56,875
Is that sufficient?

1156
01:04:59,628 --> 01:04:59,632
>> That is sufficient.

1157
01:04:59,632 --> 01:05:01,632
One thing that caught my attention, for example,

1158
01:05:01,632 --> 01:05:04,171
is that it is a private street that is created.

1159
01:05:04,171 --> 01:05:06,131
Anybody can create a private street.

1160
01:05:06,131 --> 01:05:07,923
So perhaps there are some other definitions

1161
01:05:07,923 --> 01:05:10,493
that we can look at, as well, that

1162
01:05:10,493 --> 01:05:12,200
might help us get to the same conclusion

1163
01:05:12,200 --> 01:05:15,200
that you are driving at.

1164
01:05:17,129 --> 01:05:17,132
>> Thank you.

1165
01:05:17,132 --> 01:05:18,674
So we have got a motion on the table.

1166
01:05:18,674 --> 01:05:21,674
Any discussion on that motion ?

1167
01:05:22,918 --> 01:05:27,857
All those in favor of the motion, say aye.

1168
01:05:27,857 --> 01:05:30,257
All right, Mr. Jenson.

1169
01:05:32,750 --> 01:05:32,387
>> Next discussion point was the major versus minor lot

1170
01:05:32,387 --> 01:05:33,211
threshold.

1171
01:05:33,211 --> 01:05:37,867
The question is, is eight lots the right number

1172
01:05:37,867 --> 01:05:40,267
for a minor subdivision?

1173
01:05:41,602 --> 01:05:43,519
So there's a lot of research that the Land Use

1174
01:05:43,519 --> 01:05:45,270
board looked at.

1175
01:05:45,270 --> 01:05:47,235
They looked at some data from some other counties

1176
01:05:47,235 --> 01:05:49,631
that are sort of comparable to Union County.

1177
01:05:49,631 --> 01:05:56,735
And although the Land Use Board did not reach any full consensus

1178
01:05:56,735 --> 01:06:01,727
on this, they did have a lot of discussion regarding resetting

1179
01:06:01,727 --> 01:06:04,127
the parent parcel date.

1180
01:06:04,867 --> 01:06:09,670
I know three of you met --

1181
01:06:11,861 --> 01:06:14,111
I don't think you have been part of these discussions.

1182
01:06:14,111 --> 01:06:17,527
Parent parcels in Union County go back to February 14th 1978.

1183
01:06:17,527 --> 01:06:20,640
That's when sort of the land use ordinance

1184
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:23,327
started regulating parcels of property.

1185
01:06:23,327 --> 01:06:27,827
So you can create eight lots out of that lot

1186
01:06:27,827 --> 01:06:31,987
that existed in 1978, and that is your minor subdivision.

1187
01:06:31,987 --> 01:06:36,787
So the idea about resetting that date is --

1188
01:06:36,787 --> 01:06:40,413
1978, it was looked at as a generational thing.

1189
01:06:40,413 --> 01:06:43,413
1978 -- that was 48 years ago.

1190
01:06:44,944 --> 01:06:46,957
It's been a while.

1191
01:06:46,957 --> 01:06:49,487
The thought was to reset that date

1192
01:06:49,487 --> 01:06:54,670
to maybe allow some more divisions of those properties

1193
01:06:54,670 --> 01:06:57,357
for probably people who just want to do a couple of lots

1194
01:06:57,357 --> 01:06:59,755
here and there, maybe for family members,

1195
01:06:59,755 --> 01:07:01,737
or maybe just to sell off a couple of lots

1196
01:07:01,737 --> 01:07:07,811
to help pay some bills, because a lot of those parcels

1197
01:07:07,811 --> 01:07:08,561
have been divided.

1198
01:07:08,561 --> 01:07:11,267
They have given lots to two kids.

1199
01:07:11,267 --> 01:07:13,440
They gave their lots to two kids,

1200
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:15,447
and they gave their lots to two kids.

1201
01:07:15,447 --> 01:07:17,730
You get to eight lots pretty fast.

1202
01:07:17,730 --> 01:07:19,573
So the idea of resetting that date

1203
01:07:19,573 --> 01:07:22,677
and then having sort of an automatic reset provision

1204
01:07:22,677 --> 01:07:24,183
built into the ordinance.

1205
01:07:24,183 --> 01:07:28,967
And then sort of the discussion about the number of lots.

1206
01:07:28,967 --> 01:07:32,447
So the three -- these are sort of the three motions that were

1207
01:07:32,447 --> 01:07:35,795
made in the land use board, all of which failed.

1208
01:07:35,795 --> 01:07:41,795
The first one was that, leave it at eight lots,

1209
01:07:42,727 --> 01:07:46,627
and reset the parent parcel date every ten years.

1210
01:07:46,627 --> 01:07:50,947
The second motion was, minor subdivision with five lots

1211
01:07:50,947 --> 01:07:53,767
or less, and the parent parcel reset date

1212
01:07:53,767 --> 01:07:55,700
would be every ten years.

1213
01:07:55,700 --> 01:07:59,727
I think this last one was sort of maybe a compromise

1214
01:07:59,727 --> 01:08:04,655
to say, okay, well, what if we do five lots

1215
01:08:04,655 --> 01:08:08,855
and have it reset every seven years?

1216
01:08:09,141 --> 01:08:09,954
That failed.

1217
01:08:09,954 --> 01:08:11,746
There was a little bit of consensus, maybe,

1218
01:08:11,746 --> 01:08:17,146
around five lots, but there was really no agreement

1219
01:08:18,478 --> 01:08:19,270
on that reset date.

1220
01:08:19,270 --> 01:08:22,147
Again, even the consensus around the five lots --

1221
01:08:22,147 --> 01:08:26,167
there were still enough folks that thought it should still be

1222
01:08:26,167 --> 01:08:30,819
eight that that didn't make it out of the land use board.

1223
01:08:30,819 --> 01:08:33,507
I wanted to provide you discussion around that item

1224
01:08:33,507 --> 01:08:38,720
and have you guys weigh in on what you

1225
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:42,920
might want to direct us to do.

1226
01:08:48,128 --> 01:08:50,109
>> Thank you, Lee.

1227
01:08:50,109 --> 01:08:58,509
Can you speak to, why was the focus in on ten years and seven

1228
01:08:59,622 --> 01:09:00,821
years?

1229
01:09:00,821 --> 01:09:02,988
Do you recall what the logic from the Land Use Board

1230
01:09:02,988 --> 01:09:04,546
was on that?

1231
01:09:04,546 --> 01:09:05,460
>> I don't.

1232
01:09:05,460 --> 01:09:08,950
I think it was really -- the two and three, going from 10 to 7,

1233
01:09:08,950 --> 01:09:13,470
they dropped it to seven because you had enough folks who I think

1234
01:09:13,470 --> 01:09:17,947
wanted it to stay at eight, but I think that shorter amount

1235
01:09:17,947 --> 01:09:21,367
of time for the reset -- they thought maybe that would make

1236
01:09:21,367 --> 01:09:24,507
them comfortable with going down to five.

1237
01:09:24,507 --> 01:09:26,907
Obviously, it didn't work.

1238
01:09:27,253 --> 01:09:33,253
Yeah, I think that the ten year date was --

1239
01:09:35,940 --> 01:09:36,677
I think they were trying to look at it

1240
01:09:36,677 --> 01:09:41,477
from a generational standpoint, but also maybe not

1241
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:42,597
going quite as far in.

1242
01:09:42,597 --> 01:09:44,495
There was discussion around 15 to 20,

1243
01:09:44,495 --> 01:09:51,950
but I think they sort of backed it down to ten.

1244
01:09:52,758 --> 01:09:55,316
>> And, see, that's what -- when I first looked at this,

1245
01:09:55,316 --> 01:09:57,649
that's what I had in my mind is, if we are talking about

1246
01:09:57,649 --> 01:10:02,535
a generational-type reset, most people define a generation as 40

1247
01:10:02,535 --> 01:10:03,830
years.

1248
01:10:03,830 --> 01:10:07,427
But in something like this, I'm thinking somewhere

1249
01:10:07,427 --> 01:10:10,427
in the neighborhood between 20 and 30,

1250
01:10:10,587 --> 01:10:15,607
because what you are talking about, a lot of times,

1251
01:10:15,607 --> 01:10:17,467
is family land.

1252
01:10:17,467 --> 01:10:21,667
So my thought, my initial thought was,

1253
01:10:23,670 --> 01:10:27,471
is that, if you have a grandparent who

1254
01:10:27,471 --> 01:10:30,480
wants to deed over property to a grandchild,

1255
01:10:30,480 --> 01:10:35,107
but eventually, grandma and grandpa are going to pass away,

1256
01:10:35,107 --> 01:10:37,664
and then someone is going to inherit their property.

1257
01:10:37,664 --> 01:10:40,653
Listen, I don't think there's anybody here

1258
01:10:40,653 --> 01:10:42,987
that wants to prohibit families from subdividing

1259
01:10:42,987 --> 01:10:44,270
their properties.

1260
01:10:44,270 --> 01:10:46,783
That's not the intention here.

1261
01:10:46,783 --> 01:10:49,287
But we also can't set up a scenario

1262
01:10:49,287 --> 01:10:52,287
that's going to be abused.

1263
01:10:52,562 --> 01:10:54,437
And so it's about trying to find the balance,

1264
01:10:54,437 --> 01:10:57,395
and I am sure that the Land Use board was struggling with that.

1265
01:10:57,395 --> 01:11:01,595
Let me ask you one other thing.

1266
01:11:03,605 --> 01:11:06,618
This, I believe, came up the last time we discussed this

1267
01:11:06,618 --> 01:11:07,371
on this board.

1268
01:11:07,371 --> 01:11:11,571
We sit currently at eight lots, right?

1269
01:11:12,498 --> 01:11:15,278
So eight lots and less is a minor subdivision.

1270
01:11:15,278 --> 01:11:17,100
I believe, in our previous discussion,

1271
01:11:17,100 --> 01:11:19,547
the question was asked, well, what

1272
01:11:19,547 --> 01:11:23,440
is the rest of the state do?

1273
01:11:23,440 --> 01:11:28,244
I think the answer you gave us was five.

1274
01:11:28,244 --> 01:11:30,244
>> So we looked at a lot of comparable counties.

1275
01:11:30,244 --> 01:11:35,163
I think I had about ten different counties, or maybe 14

1276
01:11:35,163 --> 01:11:35,947
that I pulled.

1277
01:11:35,947 --> 01:11:42,665
I don't think there was -- in any of the counties that I

1278
01:11:42,665 --> 01:11:44,707
looked at, I don't think, if I added them all up,

1279
01:11:44,707 --> 01:11:46,677
there was a majority rules kind of number.

1280
01:11:46,677 --> 01:11:49,667
There was kind of a common theme of five.

1281
01:11:49,667 --> 01:11:51,866
But I will say, there were some --

1282
01:11:51,866 --> 01:11:53,449
I think there was one as low as three.

1283
01:11:53,449 --> 01:11:55,899
That may have been Stanley County.

1284
01:11:55,899 --> 01:11:59,889
Then there was one that was as high as 20 lots.

1285
01:11:59,889 --> 01:12:01,604
That may have been --

1286
01:12:01,604 --> 01:12:03,467
I think that was Lincoln County.

1287
01:12:03,467 --> 01:12:10,670
But yeah, it was -- there were a number that were 10.

1288
01:12:13,213 --> 01:12:14,713
The whole idea of a parent parcel --

1289
01:12:14,713 --> 01:12:18,727
a couple of them did have a parent parcel kind of set up.

1290
01:12:18,727 --> 01:12:21,107
I wouldn't call it a parent parcel.

1291
01:12:21,107 --> 01:12:23,797
I actually called a few folks because I didn't quite

1292
01:12:23,797 --> 01:12:27,747
understand exactly what their ordinance was saying.

1293
01:12:27,747 --> 01:12:29,493
I wanted to know how they interpreted it.

1294
01:12:29,493 --> 01:12:31,147
It was kind of like ours.

1295
01:12:31,147 --> 01:12:33,700
They sort of recognized that that was --

1296
01:12:33,700 --> 01:12:34,900
I think it's a good idea.

1297
01:12:34,900 --> 01:12:38,336
I think they recognized it, too.

1298
01:12:38,336 --> 01:12:40,419
Some of them didn't have a reset provision at all.

1299
01:12:40,419 --> 01:12:41,238
It was kind of like ours.

1300
01:12:41,238 --> 01:12:42,630
It was tied to a certain date.

1301
01:12:42,630 --> 01:12:44,297
Some of them did have a reset provision.

1302
01:12:44,297 --> 01:12:46,870
They sort of varied.

1303
01:12:46,870 --> 01:12:47,163
But it was generational.

1304
01:12:47,163 --> 01:12:50,177
The ones I saw were around 20 years.

1305
01:12:50,177 --> 01:12:52,667
Some of them didn't have anything.

1306
01:12:52,667 --> 01:12:54,920
Some of them didn't tie it to a parent parcel.

1307
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:59,513
So you, theoretically, could come in and do five lots today

1308
01:12:59,513 --> 01:13:02,247
and then come in tomorrow and do five lots again.

1309
01:13:02,247 --> 01:13:04,792
Those are the ones that I --

1310
01:13:04,792 --> 01:13:08,446
I think Brian has probably worked in a community like that.

1311
01:13:08,446 --> 01:13:10,267
Actually asked a couple of the planners

1312
01:13:10,267 --> 01:13:14,433
if they had ever seen that scenario, and yeah.

1313
01:13:14,433 --> 01:13:16,865
But they weren't really --

1314
01:13:16,865 --> 01:13:20,689
I looked at a lot of folks that were like us in terms of,

1315
01:13:20,689 --> 01:13:22,665
they are on the edge of a pretty large city,

1316
01:13:22,665 --> 01:13:24,457
they have got a lot of growth, but I also

1317
01:13:24,457 --> 01:13:26,237
looked at some that were relatively rural.

1318
01:13:26,237 --> 01:13:30,147
Those were the ones that were relatively rural that

1319
01:13:30,147 --> 01:13:33,667
weren't experiencing the growth that we are.

1320
01:13:33,667 --> 01:13:37,996
But the common theme -- again, I don't think it was a majority,

1321
01:13:37,996 --> 01:13:41,596
but a common theme was five.

1322
01:13:45,922 --> 01:13:47,922
>> Mr. County administrator?

1323
01:13:53,795 --> 01:13:57,870
` I cannot recall, but did that number change previously?

1324
01:13:57,870 --> 01:14:01,294
Was our number something different previously?

1325
01:14:01,294 --> 01:14:01,794
>> It was.

1326
01:14:01,794 --> 01:14:04,200
Prior to 2014 -- that is when this was adopted --

1327
01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:07,842
prior to 2014, ours was -- it was five,

1328
01:14:07,842 --> 01:14:09,880
but there was another loophole.

1329
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:17,800
It was five, but if you were essentially just not putting --

1330
01:14:18,232 --> 01:14:22,530
let's say you had a really long piece of property along a road.

1331
01:14:22,530 --> 01:14:24,530
It was unlimited.

1332
01:14:24,530 --> 01:14:29,907
So you could -- and I remember, when we were going through,

1333
01:14:29,907 --> 01:14:32,649
rewriting the code, I threw out, well,

1334
01:14:32,649 --> 01:14:38,649
if you had one long enough, could you do 100 lots?

1335
01:14:39,944 --> 01:14:40,444
You could.

1336
01:14:40,444 --> 01:14:40,555
It's a minor subdivision.

1337
01:14:40,555 --> 01:14:43,207
As long as there is no water, sewer, new roads,

1338
01:14:43,207 --> 01:14:44,690
any infrastructure like that, you

1339
01:14:44,690 --> 01:14:46,107
could theoretically have 100 lots,

1340
01:14:46,107 --> 01:14:49,707
if you had the road frontage.

1341
01:14:49,987 --> 01:14:54,167
I think when we were sort of going through that provision,

1342
01:14:54,167 --> 01:14:56,793
we thought, that's not really a good idea.

1343
01:14:56,793 --> 01:14:59,775
We thought, that needs to go away.

1344
01:14:59,775 --> 01:15:03,107
So the eight was really -- it was an arbitrary number.

1345
01:15:03,107 --> 01:15:07,630
It was sort of a compromise, like, we'll take this away,

1346
01:15:07,630 --> 01:15:12,430
but we are going to give you three.

1347
01:15:13,315 --> 01:15:16,823
That's really kind of where that came from.

1348
01:15:16,823 --> 01:15:20,202
>> I have a question for Lee, as well.

1349
01:15:20,202 --> 01:15:22,547
I don't often do this, but looking at the definition

1350
01:15:22,547 --> 01:15:26,866
of parent parcels and the importance of that in our code

1351
01:15:26,866 --> 01:15:29,844
and the way it has been constructed --

1352
01:15:29,844 --> 01:15:32,616
it's kind of like the foundation of a lot of things.

1353
01:15:32,616 --> 01:15:36,215
And so the idea of changing that --

1354
01:15:36,215 --> 01:15:40,427
I guess, I kind of want to do an emotional check in with you,

1355
01:15:40,427 --> 01:15:42,270
just to see how you feel about that.

1356
01:15:42,270 --> 01:15:44,360
Does that cause you anxiety?

1357
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:48,350
It seems like we are changing the rules of gravity

1358
01:15:48,350 --> 01:15:50,435
a little bit here.

1359
01:15:52,708 --> 01:15:53,541
>> It did, at first.

1360
01:15:53,541 --> 01:15:57,910
I think we have sort of internally talked about it

1361
01:15:57,910 --> 01:16:00,612
enough -- we've run through a couple of scenarios just

1362
01:16:00,612 --> 01:16:02,427
in discussions.

1363
01:16:02,427 --> 01:16:04,971
There are a couple of different places --

1364
01:16:04,971 --> 01:16:08,283
it will take some surgery on the ordinance to do it,

1365
01:16:08,283 --> 01:16:13,587
because there's a couple of places that reference lot

1366
01:16:13,587 --> 01:16:14,517
of record.

1367
01:16:14,517 --> 01:16:16,975
I'm throwing out terms that aren't really in the ordinance,

1368
01:16:16,975 --> 01:16:18,738
but I call it lot of record.

1369
01:16:18,738 --> 01:16:21,370
It talks about that, but we wouldn't necessarily

1370
01:16:21,370 --> 01:16:23,200
want to change that particular provision.

1371
01:16:23,200 --> 01:16:25,559
So there would have to be some new definitions added

1372
01:16:25,559 --> 01:16:28,255
to kind of cover those scenarios,

1373
01:16:28,255 --> 01:16:31,464
but I think we have discussed it enough to,

1374
01:16:31,464 --> 01:16:35,658
I know and my staff knows where those particular areas

1375
01:16:35,658 --> 01:16:37,924
are that would give me some heartburn.

1376
01:16:37,924 --> 01:16:41,333
I am fine with changing it.

1377
01:16:41,333 --> 01:16:44,333
I think we will --

1378
01:16:45,271 --> 01:16:48,871
I think it will probably need to, at some point,

1379
01:16:48,871 --> 01:16:50,732
be updated, so now is as good a time as any.

1380
01:16:50,732 --> 01:16:52,107
We would definitely take our time

1381
01:16:52,107 --> 01:16:56,907
to make sure that we didn't miss something.

1382
01:16:59,720 --> 01:17:01,780
>> This is what I look like when I'm doing a trust fall exercise.

1383
01:17:01,780 --> 01:17:05,880
I am doing that with you.

1384
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:06,930
>> I mean, the other thing that I want to point out --

1385
01:17:06,930 --> 01:17:07,800
Li didn't go down this rabbit hole,

1386
01:17:07,800 --> 01:17:11,533
but when you do create a reset, there

1387
01:17:11,533 --> 01:17:13,707
is still a lot of work that has to be

1388
01:17:13,707 --> 01:17:18,510
done to be able to have that in perpetuity.

1389
01:17:18,510 --> 01:17:20,107
We've got to have maps.

1390
01:17:20,107 --> 01:17:23,555
We have got to have that information to refer back to.

1391
01:17:23,555 --> 01:17:28,669
Right now, that '78 map is a paper map.

1392
01:17:28,669 --> 01:17:30,627
We tried to digitize it and scan it and use it,

1393
01:17:30,627 --> 01:17:32,317
but that is a lot more work.

1394
01:17:32,317 --> 01:17:34,755
Now, with technology, things have

1395
01:17:34,755 --> 01:17:37,667
gotten a lot easier, a lot easier to do that kind of work.

1396
01:17:37,667 --> 01:17:43,367
But keep in mind, you are taking a map, and you are like, okay,

1397
01:17:43,367 --> 01:17:46,472
it exists as it does today 20 years from now.

1398
01:17:46,472 --> 01:17:48,357
We didn't have to go through the exercise

1399
01:17:48,357 --> 01:17:53,757
of amending that and now identifying, what is parent?

1400
01:17:57,991 --> 01:17:59,667
What is not parent?

1401
01:17:59,667 --> 01:18:00,792
Not saying you can't do it.

1402
01:18:00,792 --> 01:18:02,627
That's something else you have to take into mind, the work we

1403
01:18:02,627 --> 01:18:04,339
have to do to be able to refer back to it

1404
01:18:04,339 --> 01:18:07,151
and no, that is a parent parcel land.

1405
01:18:07,151 --> 01:18:08,671
Before, it was not.

1406
01:18:08,671 --> 01:18:10,671
Now it is.

1407
01:18:16,790 --> 01:18:20,504
>> Lee, how many more years you got until retirement?

1408
01:18:20,504 --> 01:18:22,504
[Laughter]

1409
01:18:23,334 --> 01:18:28,848
>> Just for clarity, if we did do a parent parcel reset,

1410
01:18:28,848 --> 01:18:35,270
it would be for every property in the county would reset

1411
01:18:35,270 --> 01:18:38,270
on that same date, correct?

1412
01:18:41,127 --> 01:18:43,127
>> Unincorporated.

1413
01:18:43,827 --> 01:18:45,827
>> Yes, sir.

1414
01:18:46,473 --> 01:18:48,473
Okay.

1415
01:18:50,179 --> 01:18:51,221
>> Help me out here, Lee.

1416
01:18:51,221 --> 01:18:54,251
So we talk about subdividing, subdividing again.

1417
01:18:54,251 --> 01:18:58,999
Is there an acreage limit for how many times

1418
01:18:58,999 --> 01:19:03,799
a lot can be subdivided, in this situation?

1419
01:19:06,894 --> 01:19:09,102
>> It would just be based on the zoning and the area.

1420
01:19:09,102 --> 01:19:11,887
As long as you can make that minimum zoning requirement,

1421
01:19:11,887 --> 01:19:14,613
then we can subdivide it as many times as you want to.

1422
01:19:14,613 --> 01:19:18,691
You just might trip over into a major, at some point.

1423
01:19:18,691 --> 01:19:19,667
Yeah.

1424
01:19:19,667 --> 01:19:21,667
There's no limit.

1425
01:19:24,430 --> 01:19:26,430
>> Thank you.

1426
01:19:34,723 --> 01:19:38,593
>> You look like you're deep in thought over there.

1427
01:19:38,593 --> 01:19:41,100
>> I am deep in thought, but I don't really want to reveal

1428
01:19:41,100 --> 01:19:43,100
these thoughts.

1429
01:19:44,401 --> 01:19:46,401
[Laughter]

1430
01:19:47,120 --> 01:19:50,720
I'll just keep them to myself.

1431
01:19:54,512 --> 01:19:55,870
>> My personal opinion is, I don't know that eight lots is

1432
01:19:55,870 --> 01:19:57,627
the correct number any longer, especially when --

1433
01:19:57,627 --> 01:20:03,270
so when we were talking about five lots --

1434
01:20:03,805 --> 01:20:05,638
you said that that's more like the common --

1435
01:20:05,638 --> 01:20:07,451
more common around the state, I guess,

1436
01:20:07,451 --> 01:20:09,280
is the best way to put it.

1437
01:20:09,280 --> 01:20:14,672
My first question is, well, why the heck do we have eight?

1438
01:20:14,672 --> 01:20:17,470
Why are we sitting at eight lots if the rest of the state

1439
01:20:17,470 --> 01:20:18,304
has five?

1440
01:20:18,304 --> 01:20:20,704
I appreciate the explanation.

1441
01:20:22,330 --> 01:20:24,787
From what you are saying, this is kind of an arbitrary number.

1442
01:20:24,787 --> 01:20:27,227
I don't think that --

1443
01:20:27,227 --> 01:20:30,827
in my heart of hearts, I don't think the number is eight.

1444
01:20:30,827 --> 01:20:34,541
Now, I am not set on a number, per se.

1445
01:20:34,541 --> 01:20:37,247
I don't know that the number is seven.

1446
01:20:37,247 --> 01:20:38,927
It might be six.

1447
01:20:38,927 --> 01:20:40,427
It might be five.

1448
01:20:40,427 --> 01:20:42,947
It might be something else.

1449
01:20:42,947 --> 01:20:45,947
But I think that --

1450
01:20:50,312 --> 01:20:53,912
I don't think it's eight, personally.

1451
01:20:55,741 --> 01:20:59,407
I will welcome comments from the board, but I'm not --

1452
01:20:59,407 --> 01:21:04,207
I'm kind of struggling here because, from what

1453
01:21:05,764 --> 01:21:08,139
you are saying, I mean, this is kind of all over the map.

1454
01:21:08,139 --> 01:21:10,453
You are seeing instances where you

1455
01:21:10,453 --> 01:21:13,587
have got a wide range in the threshold number.

1456
01:21:13,587 --> 01:21:20,187
I think that we have to be cognizant, as a board,

1457
01:21:20,607 --> 01:21:22,232
about residential growth in our county.

1458
01:21:22,232 --> 01:21:24,227
It's not something that we can ignore.

1459
01:21:24,227 --> 01:21:27,943
But at the same time, there has to be a balance

1460
01:21:27,943 --> 01:21:33,343
so that we can protect our long-term families here.

1461
01:21:33,646 --> 01:21:35,271
None of us want to hurt the people that

1462
01:21:35,271 --> 01:21:37,547
want to raise their kids and see their grandkids grow

1463
01:21:37,547 --> 01:21:39,547
on family property.

1464
01:21:40,400 --> 01:21:46,400
I think, too, that family element helps, in some ways,

1465
01:21:46,817 --> 01:21:48,371
to preserve our agriculture.

1466
01:21:48,371 --> 01:21:52,577
And so the last thing that I want to do

1467
01:21:52,577 --> 01:21:56,177
is to hurt that family aspect.

1468
01:21:57,307 --> 01:22:00,317
I do not agree with the recommendations

1469
01:22:00,317 --> 01:22:06,339
that we see from the Land Use Board for every ten years.

1470
01:22:06,339 --> 01:22:09,198
I do think it needs to be a higher term, if we explore that.

1471
01:22:09,198 --> 01:22:11,967
But what I am sensing from the board now

1472
01:22:11,967 --> 01:22:14,707
is that we may need to have some further discussion on this

1473
01:22:14,707 --> 01:22:20,707
before we press forward, unless I'm getting the wrong perception

1474
01:22:21,579 --> 01:22:24,579
here from the board members.

1475
01:22:29,292 --> 01:22:29,792
>> No.

1476
01:22:29,792 --> 01:22:31,334
I think you are reading me correctly.

1477
01:22:31,334 --> 01:22:33,570
This is a big deal.

1478
01:22:33,570 --> 01:22:37,487
This will really impact a lot of property owners in the county.

1479
01:22:37,487 --> 01:22:42,587
I want to do it as fairly as possible.

1480
01:22:42,587 --> 01:22:46,430
The parent parcel reset sounds great,

1481
01:22:46,430 --> 01:22:50,300
but there is bound to be some negative effects, as well.

1482
01:22:50,300 --> 01:22:52,327
I want to look at that very carefully.

1483
01:22:52,327 --> 01:22:55,327
But I do know --

1484
01:22:56,255 --> 01:22:58,547
I do know there are farms out there now that still have

1485
01:22:58,547 --> 01:23:02,747
considerable acreage that, if a grandparent wants

1486
01:23:04,788 --> 01:23:08,510
to give a grandchild a lot, all of a sudden,

1487
01:23:08,510 --> 01:23:11,651
they are into major subdivision category.

1488
01:23:12,808 --> 01:23:19,408
I just -- I want to be very responsible and diligent

1489
01:23:19,602 --> 01:23:21,227
and continue to move this conversation,

1490
01:23:21,227 --> 01:23:25,553
but I do think the conversation may need to go forward a little

1491
01:23:25,553 --> 01:23:30,953
bit more before we -- just to be responsible.

1492
01:23:32,675 --> 01:23:33,175
>> Yeah.

1493
01:23:33,175 --> 01:23:33,575
I think our county manager brought up a great point.

1494
01:23:33,575 --> 01:23:35,975
If we are transcribing paper maps,

1495
01:23:35,975 --> 01:23:39,987
that could be a tall task for our staff.

1496
01:23:39,987 --> 01:23:43,891
Is there a way to maybe get our arms wrapped

1497
01:23:43,891 --> 01:23:47,660
around how much this would entail from staff so that we can

1498
01:23:47,660 --> 01:23:51,260
kind of make a better decision?

1499
01:23:52,823 --> 01:23:54,198
>> So we wouldn't use paper maps.

1500
01:23:54,198 --> 01:24:00,297
We would just capture the GIS data the day that that amendment

1501
01:24:00,297 --> 01:24:02,860
became effective, but knowing that that may not be --

1502
01:24:02,860 --> 01:24:05,277
it's not going to be 100% correct because there could have

1503
01:24:05,277 --> 01:24:10,889
been a plot or something filed that day, but that is true now.

1504
01:24:10,889 --> 01:24:15,373
We do occasionally have people that come in that will say,

1505
01:24:15,373 --> 01:24:19,131
well, this was the parent parcel, and this was 1978.

1506
01:24:19,131 --> 01:24:22,530
It's amazing how -- because my memory is not that good.

1507
01:24:22,530 --> 01:24:23,907
It's amazing how good people's memory is.

1508
01:24:23,907 --> 01:24:28,353
They will say, no, on January 2nd of 1978,

1509
01:24:28,353 --> 01:24:31,232
my grandmother split this property.

1510
01:24:31,232 --> 01:24:34,721
And they will bring us the deed.

1511
01:24:34,721 --> 01:24:37,179
We recognize that because it happened before February 14th.

1512
01:24:37,179 --> 01:24:38,987
Those things do happen.

1513
01:24:38,987 --> 01:24:41,173
But that's what we would do.

1514
01:24:41,173 --> 01:24:42,855
We would capture the GIS data on the day

1515
01:24:42,855 --> 01:24:45,807
that it became effective, which is not very difficult.

1516
01:24:45,807 --> 01:24:47,987
We've already had this conversation with GIS.

1517
01:24:47,987 --> 01:24:49,987
It's not difficult to do.

1518
01:24:49,987 --> 01:24:53,395
We could have scenarios that we would

1519
01:24:53,395 --> 01:24:55,507
have to work with people on, because maybe there

1520
01:24:55,507 --> 01:24:58,313
was something that happened that wasn't mapped yet.

1521
01:24:58,313 --> 01:25:04,313
But I don't think that would be a heavy lift.

1522
01:25:06,987 --> 01:25:11,731
What you may want to see -- because again,

1523
01:25:11,731 --> 01:25:17,476
when you reset this date, a lot that was subdivided five years

1524
01:25:17,476 --> 01:25:19,393
ago all of a sudden becomes the parent parcel.

1525
01:25:19,393 --> 01:25:26,120
So if you had eight lots that came out of a parent tract,

1526
01:25:26,120 --> 01:25:30,333
then now all of those eight lots are now parent parcels

1527
01:25:30,333 --> 01:25:31,720
and can be divided.

1528
01:25:31,720 --> 01:25:35,427
So I think that's something that --

1529
01:25:35,427 --> 01:25:37,227
some information you may want to see.

1530
01:25:37,227 --> 01:25:41,101
We could probably provide you with a --

1531
01:25:41,101 --> 01:25:44,667
I mean, it would be a snapshot in time

1532
01:25:44,667 --> 01:25:49,667
of a number of lots that exist in the unincorporated portion

1533
01:25:49,667 --> 01:25:55,667
of the county to give you an idea of what

1534
01:25:56,193 --> 01:25:58,593
we are talking about.

1535
01:26:00,580 --> 01:26:02,497
>> What's the pleasure of the board with that?

1536
01:26:02,497 --> 01:26:04,198
Is that something you would want to see?

1537
01:26:04,198 --> 01:26:06,494
We could potentially be talking about the creation

1538
01:26:06,494 --> 01:26:09,494
of a lot of lots.

1539
01:26:09,989 --> 01:26:13,737
Yeah, if -- I think that may be helpful for us,

1540
01:26:13,737 --> 01:26:18,179
to kind of get an idea about, if we were to implement a parent

1541
01:26:18,179 --> 01:26:21,529
parcel renewal date, what's the impact?

1542
01:26:21,529 --> 01:26:24,350
So if staff can bring us back information regarding

1543
01:26:24,350 --> 01:26:26,244
that at a later time, then I think

1544
01:26:26,244 --> 01:26:28,397
that that would be appropriate.

1545
01:26:28,397 --> 01:26:32,597
Do we need a motion on that?

1546
01:26:36,792 --> 01:26:37,625
>> I don't think so.

1547
01:26:37,625 --> 01:26:40,625
We could just do it.

1548
01:26:45,840 --> 01:26:45,675
>> All right.

1549
01:26:45,675 --> 01:26:50,133
So final item here is the idea of the family subdivision.

1550
01:26:50,133 --> 01:26:53,133
Some communities have an exemption

1551
01:26:53,563 --> 01:26:56,987
in their development regulations for family subdivisions.

1552
01:26:56,987 --> 01:26:59,440
And they typically have some requirements

1553
01:26:59,440 --> 01:27:03,450
that revolve around sort of these four kind of themes here.

1554
01:27:03,450 --> 01:27:05,940
There's usually a lineal descendant requirement,

1555
01:27:05,940 --> 01:27:10,670
usually a parent to a child or a grandparent to a grandchild.

1556
01:27:10,670 --> 01:27:12,140
Some of them could be vice versa.

1557
01:27:12,140 --> 01:27:13,987
It could be going the other direction.

1558
01:27:13,987 --> 01:27:17,167
Usually there's a maximum number that you

1559
01:27:17,167 --> 01:27:23,523
can do per year or a maximum per lot of record or maximum number

1560
01:27:23,523 --> 01:27:25,307
over a certain number of years.

1561
01:27:25,307 --> 01:27:27,430
That was kind of -- and honestly,

1562
01:27:27,430 --> 01:27:28,343
there weren't that many.

1563
01:27:28,343 --> 01:27:31,270
When I looked at comparable counties,

1564
01:27:31,270 --> 01:27:34,467
everybody had rules around major and minor subdivisions.

1565
01:27:34,467 --> 01:27:36,915
I didn't have any issues finding anything there.

1566
01:27:36,915 --> 01:27:41,138
I think, of the ones I looked at, I found four that handled --

1567
01:27:41,138 --> 01:27:43,239
that had something to do with family subdivisions.

1568
01:27:43,239 --> 01:27:47,678
So that was kind of all over the place.

1569
01:27:47,678 --> 01:27:50,483
Most of them have some kind of road frontage

1570
01:27:50,483 --> 01:27:52,982
or an easement access requirement.

1571
01:27:52,982 --> 01:27:56,582
Most of them were easement access.

1572
01:27:57,720 --> 01:27:58,655
You didn't have to have road frontage.

1573
01:27:58,655 --> 01:28:00,691
It could be back on a dirt road somewhere.

1574
01:28:00,691 --> 01:28:04,347
And then there were some ownership requirements.

1575
01:28:04,347 --> 01:28:07,583
It had to be owned by a family member.

1576
01:28:07,583 --> 01:28:12,467
And there are some time limits on that ownership.

1577
01:28:12,467 --> 01:28:16,539
So common themes seem to be three years.

1578
01:28:16,539 --> 01:28:21,260
If I gave my son a piece of property, he had to be my son,

1579
01:28:21,260 --> 01:28:24,315
and he had to own it for three years.

1580
01:28:24,315 --> 01:28:27,838
I did get into a little bit of --

1581
01:28:27,838 --> 01:28:31,239
I called a couple of them just to see, how do you handle these?

1582
01:28:31,239 --> 01:28:34,239
How do you regulate that?

1583
01:28:34,648 --> 01:28:37,587
And that's difficult. It is difficult to regulate this.

1584
01:28:37,587 --> 01:28:39,987
That is a downside.

1585
01:28:40,930 --> 01:28:45,493
Most of them, as part of the application process,

1586
01:28:45,645 --> 01:28:46,353
had an affidavit.

1587
01:28:46,353 --> 01:28:47,951
Somebody just filled out an affidavit

1588
01:28:47,951 --> 01:28:51,762
and said, yeah, that's my kid, or that's my grandkid,

1589
01:28:51,762 --> 01:28:52,726
and that was it.

1590
01:28:52,726 --> 01:28:56,842
We are not going to do a blood test at the county planning

1591
01:28:56,842 --> 01:28:59,659
department to prove that's your kid.

1592
01:28:59,659 --> 01:29:06,858
And then the number of years you have to own it --

1593
01:29:06,858 --> 01:29:09,939
that's just in there for show, to be honest with you.

1594
01:29:09,939 --> 01:29:11,459
It's impossible to regulate.

1595
01:29:11,459 --> 01:29:14,707
That would be a heavy lift.

1596
01:29:14,707 --> 01:29:17,300
If you were proactive about it, that

1597
01:29:17,300 --> 01:29:21,151
would mean looking at deeds that came in every day of property

1598
01:29:21,151 --> 01:29:21,651
transfers.

1599
01:29:21,651 --> 01:29:23,707
You can't do that.

1600
01:29:23,707 --> 01:29:28,487
The other way to do it is to wait for the neighbor to call

1601
01:29:28,487 --> 01:29:29,950
and say --

1602
01:29:29,950 --> 01:29:30,807
and that's going to be a family member that's mad

1603
01:29:30,807 --> 01:29:32,990
because somebody got a divorce.

1604
01:29:32,990 --> 01:29:33,827
I've seen it happen.

1605
01:29:33,827 --> 01:29:39,125
I worked in a community that had these rules.

1606
01:29:39,125 --> 01:29:40,667
After that property is transferred --

1607
01:29:40,667 --> 01:29:42,873
Jason could probably better answer this question.

1608
01:29:42,873 --> 01:29:45,000
Once that property transfers, trying

1609
01:29:45,000 --> 01:29:47,915
to undo that through a zoning action, I imagine,

1610
01:29:47,915 --> 01:29:50,800
is really hard to do.

1611
01:29:50,800 --> 01:29:53,107
Again, the regulatory side of this

1612
01:29:53,107 --> 01:29:56,107
is pretty difficult to enforce.

1613
01:29:58,267 --> 01:30:00,609
The other thing is --

1614
01:30:00,609 --> 01:30:04,407
I think why a lot of communities don't really have this --

1615
01:30:04,407 --> 01:30:07,333
it is not specifically mentioned in the North Carolina

1616
01:30:07,333 --> 01:30:08,403
subdivision statutes.

1617
01:30:08,403 --> 01:30:13,515
Kind of the last thing, sort of on the negative points,

1618
01:30:13,515 --> 01:30:15,900
it still creates a lot.

1619
01:30:15,900 --> 01:30:18,362
It is still creating a lot.

1620
01:30:18,362 --> 01:30:21,105
It's a family, but it is still creating a lot.

1621
01:30:21,105 --> 01:30:23,563
There's somebody that's going to build a house on that lot.

1622
01:30:23,563 --> 01:30:25,480
There's going to be people living on that lot.

1623
01:30:25,480 --> 01:30:27,940
It is still creating a need for services.

1624
01:30:27,940 --> 01:30:31,839
You are not getting around that issue ,

1625
01:30:31,839 --> 01:30:34,239
from the county standpoint.

1626
01:30:35,645 --> 01:30:37,270
But I will get back to the presentation

1627
01:30:37,270 --> 01:30:41,470
and what the Land Use Board recommended.

1628
01:30:44,806 --> 01:30:47,159
They recommended lineal transfers up and down,

1629
01:30:47,159 --> 01:30:48,715
two generations, that being --

1630
01:30:48,715 --> 01:30:51,706
I think everybody kind of understands what that means.

1631
01:30:51,706 --> 01:30:54,937
They didn't want a maximum number of family subdivision

1632
01:30:54,937 --> 01:30:55,437
lots.

1633
01:30:55,437 --> 01:30:57,773
They didn't want a cap.

1634
01:30:57,773 --> 01:31:01,670
No public road frontage -- each lot would have to have at least

1635
01:31:01,670 --> 01:31:03,467
a 20 foot access easement.

1636
01:31:06,134 --> 01:31:08,467
Minimum lot size would be based on the underlying zoning

1637
01:31:08,467 --> 01:31:08,705
district.

1638
01:31:08,705 --> 01:31:10,211
The reason they put that in there --

1639
01:31:10,211 --> 01:31:14,196
some of the counties that we saw had,

1640
01:31:14,196 --> 01:31:16,404
regardless of zoning district, it had to be one acre.

1641
01:31:16,404 --> 01:31:18,327
They said, that's silly.

1642
01:31:18,327 --> 01:31:20,988
Whatever the underlying zoning is is fine.

1643
01:31:20,988 --> 01:31:26,388
Have it be exempt from all of the requirements

1644
01:31:28,302 --> 01:31:30,481
of the major subdivision regulations.

1645
01:31:30,481 --> 01:31:32,773
I think if you did this, it would sort of automatically

1646
01:31:32,773 --> 01:31:34,747
be exempt because you are treating it as an exemption,

1647
01:31:34,747 --> 01:31:36,139
but they wanted that spelled out specifically.

1648
01:31:36,139 --> 01:31:38,131
And then a three year ownership requirement.

1649
01:31:38,131 --> 01:31:42,331
That was the land use board's recommendation.

1650
01:31:49,227 --> 01:31:52,227
>> Questions or comments for Lee?

1651
01:31:53,787 --> 01:31:55,787
Commissioner Baucom?

1652
01:32:00,765 --> 01:32:03,265
>> Honestly, it just looks like it's going to be very muddy.

1653
01:32:03,265 --> 01:32:05,665
It won't be clean.

1654
01:32:06,130 --> 01:32:12,382
It'll be hard to enforce, hard to regulate -- first cousin ,

1655
01:32:12,382 --> 01:32:14,382
three times removed.

1656
01:32:14,656 --> 01:32:17,724
I don't know how you truly manage this.

1657
01:32:17,724 --> 01:32:21,907
I'm afraid it may be a management nightmare.

1658
01:32:21,907 --> 01:32:24,907
But that's just my thoughts.

1659
01:32:27,337 --> 01:32:29,128
Some of the stuff in here sounds great.

1660
01:32:29,128 --> 01:32:32,283
I just think the devil is definitely

1661
01:32:32,283 --> 01:32:37,683
in the details on this one, is my opinion.

1662
01:32:38,750 --> 01:32:42,362
>> I tend to agree with Commissioner Baucom.

1663
01:32:42,362 --> 01:32:45,645
On that note, certain Baucoms in the county

1664
01:32:45,645 --> 01:32:46,728
I've got a lot of cousins.

1665
01:32:46,728 --> 01:32:49,728
Well, that's true, Helms, too.

1666
01:32:52,105 --> 01:32:58,705
I look at this, and I think, the county is not

1667
01:32:58,719 --> 01:33:03,200
going to have DNA testing, to your point earlier.

1668
01:33:03,200 --> 01:33:07,479
It's going to be practically impossible to enforce.

1669
01:33:07,479 --> 01:33:11,790
I think, to Commissioner Baucom's point,

1670
01:33:14,866 --> 01:33:16,783
a lot of this sounds really good for families,

1671
01:33:16,783 --> 01:33:19,622
but this is an enforcement nightmare.

1672
01:33:19,622 --> 01:33:27,147
And it could result in a heavy lift for our staff and trying

1673
01:33:27,147 --> 01:33:32,670
to enforce -- even though the enforcement is not that much,

1674
01:33:32,670 --> 01:33:36,144
but I mean, how do you sit there and say --

1675
01:33:36,144 --> 01:33:39,717
I mean, how do you determine that people are related?

1676
01:33:39,717 --> 01:33:45,642
I think that this is too much of an ask, at this point.

1677
01:33:45,642 --> 01:33:47,642
Any other comments?

1678
01:33:54,389 --> 01:33:56,722
>> We will start moving the first one along through that

1679
01:33:56,722 --> 01:34:00,547
text amendment process -- through that text amendment

1680
01:34:00,547 --> 01:34:01,850
process.

1681
01:34:01,850 --> 01:34:04,270
The second one, we will bring back some more research

1682
01:34:04,270 --> 01:34:04,937
and information.

1683
01:34:04,937 --> 01:34:10,830
I will probably share that with the Land Use Board,

1684
01:34:10,830 --> 01:34:12,830
at their meeting.

1685
01:34:12,113 --> 01:34:15,173
I believe I'm going to talk to the Agricultural Advisory Board,

1686
01:34:15,173 --> 01:34:19,360
as well -- bring it to them and get some feedback from those

1687
01:34:19,360 --> 01:34:20,270
boards, as well.

1688
01:34:20,270 --> 01:34:21,407
We are still talking about subdivisions

1689
01:34:21,407 --> 01:34:22,217
and minor subdivisions.

1690
01:34:22,217 --> 01:34:24,187
These are just the first kind of three things

1691
01:34:24,187 --> 01:34:29,115
that we came to some semblance of conclusions on.

1692
01:34:29,115 --> 01:34:34,515
So there will be future updates that may have

1693
01:34:38,191 --> 01:34:41,191
some different items in it.

1694
01:34:41,748 --> 01:34:41,762
>> I have no doubt that we are going to be hearing from you

1695
01:34:41,762 --> 01:34:42,894
again soon, Lee.

1696
01:34:42,894 --> 01:34:44,987
Thank you so much.

1697
01:34:44,987 --> 01:34:46,907
Appreciate it.

1698
01:34:46,907 --> 01:34:49,307
Okay, so homestretch here.

1699
01:34:49,835 --> 01:34:53,400
So Lee, I think, is done for the evening.

1700
01:34:53,400 --> 01:34:59,400
But the next item on our agenda is item 26-463,

1701
01:35:00,540 --> 01:35:02,623
and that is appointments to boards and committees.

1702
01:35:02,623 --> 01:35:04,587
There are currently two boards with vacancies for consideration

1703
01:35:04,587 --> 01:35:05,304
this evening.

1704
01:35:05,304 --> 01:35:07,387
These vacancies have been advertised in accordance

1705
01:35:07,387 --> 01:35:09,235
with the applicable law.

1706
01:35:09,235 --> 01:35:12,547
The first, the Workforce Development Board,

1707
01:35:12,547 --> 01:35:17,720
has one vacancy for an unexpired term as the higher Education

1708
01:35:17,720 --> 01:35:17,697
Representative.

1709
01:35:17,697 --> 01:35:20,990
I will now entertain a motion for a nomination

1710
01:35:20,990 --> 01:35:22,990
for this position.

1711
01:35:25,616 --> 01:35:28,283
>> Chairman Helms, I would like to make a motion that we appoint

1712
01:35:28,283 --> 01:35:33,830
Dr. Mary Jordan to the Workforce Development Board.

1713
01:35:35,430 --> 01:35:36,388
>> So we have a motion.

1714
01:35:36,388 --> 01:35:39,246
Any discussion on the motion?

1715
01:35:39,246 --> 01:35:44,223
Seeing none all those in favor of the motion, say aye.

1716
01:35:44,223 --> 01:35:45,218
Okay.

1717
01:35:45,218 --> 01:35:48,170
The second board is the home and Community Block Grant Advisory

1718
01:35:48,170 --> 01:35:51,226
Committee, which has one vacancy for an unexpired term

1719
01:35:51,226 --> 01:35:52,893
for a community representative position.

1720
01:35:52,893 --> 01:35:55,347
I will now entertain a motion for a nomination

1721
01:35:55,347 --> 01:35:57,347
for that position.

1722
01:36:00,214 --> 01:36:02,714
>> I would like to make a motion that we appoint James Wilde

1723
01:36:02,714 --> 01:36:06,383
as the home and communication Care Block Grant advisory

1724
01:36:06,383 --> 01:36:08,383
Committee.

1725
01:36:08,983 --> 01:36:08,989
>> Thank you Madam Vice Chair.

1726
01:36:08,989 --> 01:36:09,755
We have a motion.

1727
01:36:09,755 --> 01:36:12,755
Any discussion on that motion?

1728
01:36:14,470 --> 01:36:17,511
Seeing none all those in favor, say aye.

1729
01:36:17,511 --> 01:36:24,306
All right, at the end of the meeting here, so now -- no,

1730
01:36:24,306 --> 01:36:26,706
that was on consent.

1731
01:36:27,640 --> 01:36:29,450
Yep, that was on consent.

1732
01:36:29,450 --> 01:36:29,950
No problem.

1733
01:36:29,950 --> 01:36:32,117
All right so I will now recognize our county manager

1734
01:36:32,117 --> 01:36:34,117
for his comments.

1735
01:36:36,731 --> 01:36:37,648
>> I have no comments.

1736
01:36:37,648 --> 01:36:40,480
Thank you very much.

1737
01:36:40,464 --> 01:36:42,464
>> All right.

1738
01:36:44,944 --> 01:36:46,920
>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

1739
01:36:46,920 --> 01:36:49,587
I wanted to say a special thank you to Deputy Frazier and Deputy

1740
01:36:49,587 --> 01:36:50,307
Garcia.

1741
01:36:50,307 --> 01:36:53,817
The Union County deputies run towards danger every day

1742
01:36:53,817 --> 01:36:59,351
without hesitation, and many times we never hear about it.

1743
01:36:59,351 --> 01:37:03,260
I'm grateful for them, and I am grateful for the leadership that

1744
01:37:03,260 --> 01:37:06,860
allowed them to do their jobs.

1745
01:37:09,470 --> 01:37:11,470
>> Thank you.

1746
01:37:12,137 --> 01:37:14,137
Commissioner Baucom?

1747
01:37:15,918 --> 01:37:16,729
>> Yes.

1748
01:37:16,729 --> 01:37:19,280
First of all, Lee being the star of the show,

1749
01:37:19,280 --> 01:37:21,153
I want to thank him and his staff for all they have

1750
01:37:21,153 --> 01:37:25,353
done for us, and all the staff.

1751
01:37:25,398 --> 01:37:29,598
Also, congratulations to the two deputies --

1752
01:37:32,831 --> 01:37:36,431
truly heroic action on their part.

1753
01:37:39,930 --> 01:37:41,493
And I know --

1754
01:37:42,419 --> 01:37:45,480
I'd like to extend a debt of gratitude, a spirit of gratitude

1755
01:37:45,480 --> 01:37:48,270
to everybody involved in emergency services.

1756
01:37:48,270 --> 01:37:54,627
I have been in situations before where me, not being trained,

1757
01:37:55,399 --> 01:37:59,504
and I had to call that 911 number.

1758
01:37:59,504 --> 01:38:01,212
There's no better sound in the world than

1759
01:38:01,212 --> 01:38:03,555
to hear that siren coming your way.

1760
01:38:03,555 --> 01:38:08,762
Just all those folks that help keep us safe --

1761
01:38:08,762 --> 01:38:10,762
truly appreciate them.

1762
01:38:12,187 --> 01:38:15,787
Mr. Chair, that's all I've got.

1763
01:38:18,629 --> 01:38:19,171
>> Thank you.

1764
01:38:19,171 --> 01:38:21,171
Vice Chair Helms?

1765
01:38:22,123 --> 01:38:26,923
>> I'm going to echo the two commissioners already.

1766
01:38:26,991 --> 01:38:29,614
Our two deputies that jumped into action

1767
01:38:29,614 --> 01:38:35,140
to save one of our citizens is truly heroic,

1768
01:38:37,847 --> 01:38:39,619
and we owe them a debt of gratitude.

1769
01:38:39,619 --> 01:38:46,166
I would like to also recognize our IT department for becoming

1770
01:38:46,166 --> 01:38:47,410
fourth in the nation.

1771
01:38:47,410 --> 01:38:49,410
That's pretty impressive.

1772
01:38:49,673 --> 01:38:51,673
Go, IT.

1773
01:38:53,926 --> 01:38:59,926
To be a small, large community, to have that distinction,

1774
01:39:02,493 --> 01:39:04,660
is quite impressive to do what they do on the budget

1775
01:39:04,660 --> 01:39:05,291
that they have.

1776
01:39:05,291 --> 01:39:07,297
Thanks to everyone that came out and spoke.

1777
01:39:07,297 --> 01:39:08,787
We appreciate you all coming out.

1778
01:39:08,787 --> 01:39:10,787
Thank you.

1779
01:39:12,885 --> 01:39:14,177
>> Thank you, madam Vice chair.

1780
01:39:14,177 --> 01:39:19,140
I, too, want to thank Lee for all of his extra hours

1781
01:39:19,140 --> 01:39:19,682
this evening.

1782
01:39:19,682 --> 01:39:20,731
Thank you for your efforts there,

1783
01:39:20,731 --> 01:39:23,417
not only in dealing with us, with these minor subdivisions

1784
01:39:23,417 --> 01:39:26,790
and other land use items that we have got,

1785
01:39:26,790 --> 01:39:31,590
but also dealing with the Land Use Board.

1786
01:39:33,410 --> 01:39:35,302
You are front and center there, and you

1787
01:39:35,302 --> 01:39:37,135
are answering questions and bringing topics,

1788
01:39:37,135 --> 01:39:38,635
so I really appreciate your efforts.

1789
01:39:38,635 --> 01:39:41,248
I do want to thank our speakers tonight.

1790
01:39:41,248 --> 01:39:45,616
It's always good -- well, it's always good for this board

1791
01:39:45,616 --> 01:39:46,616
to hear from the public.

1792
01:39:46,616 --> 01:39:49,199
I also want to thank everybody that was in attendance tonight,

1793
01:39:49,199 --> 01:39:50,267
as well.

1794
01:39:50,267 --> 01:39:52,861
I do want to take a few minutes here,

1795
01:39:52,861 --> 01:39:57,280
and I want to respond to some of the comments

1796
01:39:57,280 --> 01:40:01,131
and the characterizations surrounding the August 4th Board

1797
01:40:01,131 --> 01:40:04,131
of Education meeting, specifically regarding

1798
01:40:05,999 --> 01:40:08,670
the proposed interlocal agreement.

1799
01:40:08,670 --> 01:40:10,661
The first thing I want to say is that I

1800
01:40:10,661 --> 01:40:14,739
want to be clear that there has never

1801
01:40:14,739 --> 01:40:17,974
been a question about whether teachers

1802
01:40:17,974 --> 01:40:22,174
and teachers' assistants deserve a supplement increase,

1803
01:40:23,207 --> 01:40:24,767
at least from this board.

1804
01:40:24,767 --> 01:40:25,587
They absolutely do.

1805
01:40:25,587 --> 01:40:28,347
If we want to hire and retain good teachers,

1806
01:40:28,347 --> 01:40:31,697
we need to consistently look at teacher supplements.

1807
01:40:31,697 --> 01:40:35,547
In fact, this board has demonstrated that commitment

1808
01:40:35,547 --> 01:40:39,187
by putting additional local dollars on the table

1809
01:40:39,187 --> 01:40:42,653
specifically for teachers and also teacher

1810
01:40:42,653 --> 01:40:44,587
assistant supplement increases.

1811
01:40:44,587 --> 01:40:48,187
We did that last year, too.

1812
01:40:49,570 --> 01:40:51,695
The disagreement, I think, that we are dealing with

1813
01:40:51,695 --> 01:40:56,107
is really about accountability for Union County taxpayer

1814
01:40:56,107 --> 01:40:57,287
dollars.

1815
01:40:57,287 --> 01:41:00,975
The county asked for something very simple

1816
01:41:00,975 --> 01:41:04,297
in this interlocal agreement, and we asked that disagreement

1817
01:41:04,297 --> 01:41:05,647
be put in writing.

1818
01:41:05,647 --> 01:41:07,637
And the terms were simple.

1819
01:41:07,637 --> 01:41:09,371
The terms were that the money needs

1820
01:41:09,371 --> 01:41:13,694
to go to the teachers and the TAs,

1821
01:41:13,694 --> 01:41:17,894
and it has to be distributed ASAP,

1822
01:41:18,412 --> 01:41:20,787
and it can't be used for other items or unfunded mandates

1823
01:41:20,787 --> 01:41:22,515
from the state.

1824
01:41:22,515 --> 01:41:26,307
The total length of that interlocal agreement was less

1825
01:41:26,307 --> 01:41:31,107
than five full pages -- less than five.

1826
01:41:33,610 --> 01:41:35,902
Despite what some Board of Education members might say,

1827
01:41:35,902 --> 01:41:40,603
the interlocal agreement was not an attack on the school board,

1828
01:41:40,603 --> 01:41:44,263
and it wasn't an attempt to control the school system.

1829
01:41:44,263 --> 01:41:48,645
It's also not an attempt to control the superintendent,

1830
01:41:48,645 --> 01:41:52,707
and it is certainly not a dictatorship.

1831
01:41:52,707 --> 01:41:55,987
Yet, during the August 4th meeting,

1832
01:41:55,987 --> 01:41:59,000
Board of Education members described the agreement

1833
01:41:59,000 --> 01:42:03,800
as manufactured mistrust and even characterized this board

1834
01:42:04,219 --> 01:42:06,217
as a dictatorship.

1835
01:42:06,217 --> 01:42:12,157
It was also alleged that this board was guilty of corruption.

1836
01:42:12,157 --> 01:42:16,957
Think about that -- a dictatorship and corruption,

1837
01:42:20,434 --> 01:42:23,590
all because the county asked for a written agreement concerning

1838
01:42:23,590 --> 01:42:25,459
millions of taxpayer dollars.

1839
01:42:25,819 --> 01:42:30,391
If that's the standard that we are going to use,

1840
01:42:30,391 --> 01:42:33,991
then apparently accountability has become tyranny,

1841
01:42:34,481 --> 01:42:38,681
and apparently transparency has become an insult.

1842
01:42:38,685 --> 01:42:42,392
I don't think the taxpayers of Union County

1843
01:42:42,392 --> 01:42:44,453
see it that way, though.

1844
01:42:44,453 --> 01:42:46,277
We were asking for accountability

1845
01:42:46,277 --> 01:42:54,540
for taxpayer money, and we asked for it in a line item budget,

1846
01:42:54,540 --> 01:42:54,554
too.

1847
01:42:54,554 --> 01:42:55,971
And that request has been ignored.

1848
01:42:55,971 --> 01:42:58,371
How is that corrupt?

1849
01:42:59,247 --> 01:43:02,459
I want to be clear about this -- that is our job,

1850
01:43:02,459 --> 01:43:03,167
as commissioners.

1851
01:43:03,167 --> 01:43:06,947
The county commissioners have a responsibility that cannot be

1852
01:43:06,947 --> 01:43:07,507
ignored.

1853
01:43:07,507 --> 01:43:11,707
We are stewards of the taxpayers' money,

1854
01:43:13,824 --> 01:43:17,411
and when we allocate millions of dollars for a specific purpose,

1855
01:43:17,411 --> 01:43:19,811
we have an obligation to the taxpayers who

1856
01:43:19,811 --> 01:43:22,187
provided that money to make sure that there

1857
01:43:22,187 --> 01:43:24,547
is clarity about where it goes.

1858
01:43:24,547 --> 01:43:26,920
When you spend public money, there

1859
01:43:26,920 --> 01:43:29,577
is no such thing as private finances.

1860
01:43:29,577 --> 01:43:33,507
This board stands united on transparency and clarity

1861
01:43:33,507 --> 01:43:35,507
because it matters.

1862
01:43:36,315 --> 01:43:42,710
We have heard the term certified staff being thrown around a lot

1863
01:43:42,710 --> 01:43:42,571
lately.

1864
01:43:42,571 --> 01:43:46,771
We heard at last budget cycle, too.

1865
01:43:48,140 --> 01:43:52,530
We also heard that paying our teachers

1866
01:43:52,530 --> 01:43:57,453
and that teacher supplement was our number one priority.

1867
01:43:58,501 --> 01:44:01,898
Yet the question is, who does certified staff include?

1868
01:44:01,898 --> 01:44:03,650
We have asked that question.

1869
01:44:03,650 --> 01:44:05,461
But more importantly, who does it exclude?

1870
01:44:05,461 --> 01:44:08,461
Are all teachers certified staff?

1871
01:44:10,239 --> 01:44:13,239
Are all TAs certified staff?

1872
01:44:13,775 --> 01:44:15,900
I think we are going to find that the answer is no,

1873
01:44:15,900 --> 01:44:16,547
they aren't.

1874
01:44:16,547 --> 01:44:18,451
Unfortunately, we have a very recent example

1875
01:44:18,451 --> 01:44:21,467
of why that clarity that I just mentioned matters.

1876
01:44:21,467 --> 01:44:26,267
You see, last year the county and UCPS

1877
01:44:28,439 --> 01:44:31,547
had a significant disagreement over what was meant by that term

1878
01:44:31,547 --> 01:44:32,907
certified staff.

1879
01:44:32,907 --> 01:44:35,730
The county, meaning this board, believed

1880
01:44:35,730 --> 01:44:37,647
that it was providing an additional supplement

1881
01:44:37,647 --> 01:44:40,470
for our classroom teachers.

1882
01:44:42,174 --> 01:44:43,861
UCPS interpreted that differently

1883
01:44:43,861 --> 01:44:45,403
to include other certified employees,

1884
01:44:45,403 --> 01:44:49,300
and our TAs didn't get anything.

1885
01:44:49,899 --> 01:44:52,227
And this isn't the only example.

1886
01:44:52,227 --> 01:44:57,827
And you can call that or the proposed interlocal agreement

1887
01:44:57,827 --> 01:45:03,827
manufactured mistrust all you want, and you can even yell,

1888
01:45:07,274 --> 01:45:08,107
they have the money.

1889
01:45:08,107 --> 01:45:10,650
But it doesn't change the fundamental question.

1890
01:45:10,650 --> 01:45:13,370
Why is it unreasonable to have a written agreement,

1891
01:45:13,370 --> 01:45:17,237
when millions of taxpayer dollars are involved?

1892
01:45:21,496 --> 01:45:23,625
Is it trust, or is it pride?

1893
01:45:23,625 --> 01:45:25,625
A written agreement isn't the opposite of trust.

1894
01:45:25,625 --> 01:45:31,250
IT govern -- that is how governments create clarity.

1895
01:45:32,389 --> 01:45:34,347
It's how we make sure that everyone understands

1896
01:45:34,347 --> 01:45:40,940
what was agreed upon and that we are all on the same page.

1897
01:45:40,940 --> 01:45:43,940
It's how we prevent disagreements

1898
01:45:43,522 --> 01:45:49,347
later about the money and what it was intended to accomplish.

1899
01:45:49,347 --> 01:45:52,100
And they are commonly done, by the way.

1900
01:45:52,100 --> 01:45:55,102
Tonight we passed two of them on our consent agenda alone.

1901
01:45:55,102 --> 01:45:58,107
The experience last year demonstrated something

1902
01:45:58,107 --> 01:46:01,123
very important, and that is, when millions of dollars

1903
01:46:01,123 --> 01:46:03,607
are involved, good intentions and verbal assurances

1904
01:46:03,607 --> 01:46:04,380
are not enough.

1905
01:46:04,380 --> 01:46:07,437
That is why the county asked for that interlocal agreement

1906
01:46:07,437 --> 01:46:08,897
this year.

1907
01:46:08,897 --> 01:46:13,730
And here's one of the most important parts.

1908
01:46:13,730 --> 01:46:15,730
Supporting teachers and demanding accountability

1909
01:46:15,730 --> 01:46:16,767
are not mutually exclusive.

1910
01:46:16,767 --> 01:46:20,683
We can, and we should do better.

1911
01:46:20,683 --> 01:46:23,133
The Board of Education ultimately rejected

1912
01:46:23,133 --> 01:46:25,723
the interlocal agreement at their August 4th meeting

1913
01:46:25,723 --> 01:46:30,507
and then approved an alternate plan that moved forward with

1914
01:46:30,507 --> 01:46:34,670
compensation increases in the way of supplement increases

1915
01:46:34,670 --> 01:46:34,975
for our teachers.

1916
01:46:34,975 --> 01:46:36,592
And I am glad that our teachers are

1917
01:46:36,592 --> 01:46:39,430
going to receive some supplement increases this year,

1918
01:46:39,430 --> 01:46:43,431
but it still leaves the question, why couldn't we

1919
01:46:43,431 --> 01:46:45,431
have both?

1920
01:46:45,596 --> 01:46:46,679
Why?

1921
01:46:46,679 --> 01:46:49,450
Why does UCPS look at cutting traffic directors to save,

1922
01:46:49,450 --> 01:46:53,907
I don't know, $200,000, and leave millions on the table

1923
01:46:53,907 --> 01:47:01,107
for teachers and TAs, if that is truly your number one goal?

1924
01:47:01,423 --> 01:47:03,215
If paying teachers is your number one goal,

1925
01:47:03,215 --> 01:47:05,480
why couldn't teachers and teacher assistants

1926
01:47:05,480 --> 01:47:09,197
receive supplement increases and the County School board,

1927
01:47:09,197 --> 01:47:11,607
and most importantly, the taxpayer have

1928
01:47:11,607 --> 01:47:16,407
a clear, written agreement regarding taxpayer dollars being

1929
01:47:17,170 --> 01:47:19,570
used to fund them?

1930
01:47:20,588 --> 01:47:21,588
That's not unreasonable.

1931
01:47:21,588 --> 01:47:23,347
That's responsible government.

1932
01:47:23,347 --> 01:47:28,447
So if asking for accountability is called manufactured mistrust,

1933
01:47:28,447 --> 01:47:30,847
I will respectfully disagree.

1934
01:47:31,707 --> 01:47:35,700
If wanting to receive the receipts is called corruption,

1935
01:47:35,700 --> 01:47:37,670
I will respectfully disagree.

1936
01:47:37,670 --> 01:47:40,835
And if a written agreement is called a dictatorship,

1937
01:47:40,835 --> 01:47:45,350
I will respectfully disagree with that, too,

1938
01:47:46,825 --> 01:47:48,388
because accountability isn't tyranny.

1939
01:47:48,388 --> 01:47:51,835
It is how government that is truly for the people

1940
01:47:51,835 --> 01:47:53,307
is operated.

1941
01:47:53,307 --> 01:47:56,607
And asking questions about taxpayer money

1942
01:47:56,607 --> 01:47:58,811
doesn't mean that you don't support teachers

1943
01:47:58,811 --> 01:48:01,811
or our public education system.

1944
01:48:02,487 --> 01:48:05,221
We can support our teachers, and we can support our schools,

1945
01:48:05,221 --> 01:48:08,347
and we can still be responsible stewards of taxpayer dollars,

1946
01:48:08,347 --> 01:48:10,867
and we don't have to choose between the two.

1947
01:48:10,867 --> 01:48:13,867
Ultimately, this discussion, whether that

1948
01:48:15,227 --> 01:48:17,467
is interlocal agreement or anything else,

1949
01:48:17,467 --> 01:48:21,667
this isn't about Brian Helms or Chairman.

1950
01:48:29,280 --> 01:48:30,800
It certainly isn't about the members

1951
01:48:30,800 --> 01:48:32,258
of this board who previously served

1952
01:48:32,258 --> 01:48:33,920
on the Board of Education.

1953
01:48:33,920 --> 01:48:35,837
These members are assets to our board.

1954
01:48:35,837 --> 01:48:37,883
I'm glad to serve with them.

1955
01:48:37,883 --> 01:48:42,515
It's not about any individual commissioner or school board

1956
01:48:42,515 --> 01:48:43,590
member.

1957
01:48:43,590 --> 01:48:46,168
What this is about -- it is about doing the right thing

1958
01:48:46,168 --> 01:48:47,987
for Union County as a whole.

1959
01:48:47,987 --> 01:48:52,360
And sometimes, doing the right thing isn't easy.

1960
01:48:52,360 --> 01:48:56,560
I will leave you with a statement.

1961
01:48:57,986 --> 01:48:59,819
I will never apologize for asking government

1962
01:48:59,819 --> 01:49:02,237
to be transparent and accountable to the people who

1963
01:49:02,237 --> 01:49:04,237
pay the bill.

1964
01:49:05,227 --> 01:49:08,227
That concludes my comments tonight.

1965
01:49:08,523 --> 01:49:12,270
Again, thank you to all of our staff members.

1966
01:49:12,270 --> 01:49:14,270
Thank you to our board.

1967
01:49:14,270 --> 01:49:15,739
I appreciate all of your efforts.

1968
01:49:15,739 --> 01:49:18,760
With that, I will make a motion to adjourn.

1969
01:49:18,760 --> 01:49:24,160
All those in favor of the motion, say aye.