1 00:00:24,900 --> 00:00:29,800 So, whenever you're here, I'll do anything before, but this will get you back. And then if they go, 2 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:31,000 Okay, can you go back to that slide? 3 00:00:31,180 --> 00:00:31,800 It's just those two. 4 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:32,520 I don't need that. 5 00:00:33,260 --> 00:00:33,520 All right. 6 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:36,960 Is 7 00:03:45,190 --> 00:03:46,030 everybody ready? 8 00:03:46,510 --> 00:03:47,750 Everybody have their things? 9 00:03:48,110 --> 00:03:48,150 Okay. 10 00:03:49,090 --> 00:03:49,310 Are we good? 11 00:03:49,570 --> 00:03:49,670 Okay. 12 00:03:50,670 --> 00:03:51,330 Five, second. 13 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,600 Good evening and welcome to the Strategic Development Committee 14 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:58,080 and Special Board meeting of April 9. 15 00:03:58,660 --> 00:04:00,420 This room is equipped with a safety alarm. 16 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:02,760 If the alarm sounds, please leave it in an orlean manner 17 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,080 via exits to the lobby or behind the desk. 18 00:04:05,660 --> 00:04:07,880 Assembly in front of the building and wait for the wait 19 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:09,800 to hear the all clear announcement from security 20 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:10,680 before re-entering. 21 00:04:11,780 --> 00:04:13,800 As meetings being recorded and can be accessed on 22 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,840 Sments website, please remember to unmute your microphone when speaking in order that a 23 00:04:17,840 --> 00:04:19,240 virtual attendees may hear you. 24 00:04:19,820 --> 00:04:22,820 The microphone will display a red indicator light when the mic is on. 25 00:04:23,540 --> 00:04:27,720 For members of the public attending in person who wish to speak at this meeting, please fill out 26 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,500 speakers request form located on the table outside of this room and hand it to security. 27 00:04:32,220 --> 00:04:35,760 Members of the public attending this meeting virtually, they wish to provide verbal 28 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:37,960 comments during the committee meeting may do so 29 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:45,340 by using the raise hand feature in Zoom or pressing star nine while dialed into the telephone toll free number at the time public comment is called. 30 00:04:46,100 --> 00:04:50,920 Technical support staff will enable the audio for you when your name is announced during the public comment period. 31 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:56,040 You may also submit written comments by emailing them to public comment at smud.org. 32 00:04:56,420 --> 00:05:04,380 Written comments will be read into the record but will be provided to the board electronically and placed into the record of the meeting if received within two hours after the meeting ends. 33 00:05:04,380 --> 00:05:07,260 Chief legal officer, please conduct the roll call. 34 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:09,480 Good, Dr. Sanborn? 35 00:05:10,460 --> 00:05:11,060 Here. 36 00:05:11,660 --> 00:05:12,780 Vice President Fishman. 37 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:13,160 Here. 38 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:14,480 Chair Bui Thompson. 39 00:05:15,220 --> 00:05:15,400 Present. 40 00:05:15,940 --> 00:05:17,080 All committee members are present. 41 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:18,880 Also present are directors. 42 00:05:19,620 --> 00:05:21,580 Curth, Tamayo, and President Hurley. 43 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:23,320 Great. 44 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:28,660 Item number one on tonight's agenda is provide the board external and internal presentations 45 00:05:28,660 --> 00:05:36,260 the 2030 Zero Carbon Plan, specifically around long duration energy storage and battery energy storage system strategy. 46 00:05:37,300 --> 00:05:40,160 We have several presenters this evening. 47 00:05:40,840 --> 00:05:50,560 First, we have Mike Gravely, he's the teen lead and senior electrical engineer for the energy systems resource research office for the California Energy Commission. 48 00:05:53,940 --> 00:05:55,180 Mike, you can take it away. 49 00:05:57,620 --> 00:06:03,020 Okay, I will point out if you have questions I have a hearing aids and so it's part I may need a little help 50 00:06:03,580 --> 00:06:07,420 Answering the questions or understanding the questions. So I'll migrate it from the commissioner 51 00:06:07,420 --> 00:06:13,900 I've been to commission over 20 years working in your storage the whole time prior that I was in industry storage industry for both the military and 52 00:06:13,900 --> 00:06:16,940 Private industry so a long history on industry storage today 53 00:06:16,940 --> 00:06:20,960 I want to talk about what we're doing in California with the primary focus on 54 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,380 Longer Asian storage as we go for it. I'll start with a quick 55 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:34,780 So this is actually from a governor's presentation a several months ago and it just shows what our plan is to reach our SB 100 gold. 56 00:06:35,580 --> 00:06:39,760 And right now we're looking at about 60% and clean energy. 57 00:06:40,060 --> 00:06:44,560 We have gold of 90% by 2035 and a gold of 100% by 2045. 58 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:52,220 So in the analysis, the CEC is the lead agency of the state to help us to direct us to get to this gold and 59 00:06:52,220 --> 00:06:58,600 And we worked with the other state agencies and then they put out a report in 2022, next 60 00:06:58,600 --> 00:06:58,800 chart. 61 00:07:00,220 --> 00:07:06,320 That shows what that means in the area of storage in general they had a chart, next chart, 62 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:07,160 I'm sorry. 63 00:07:07,820 --> 00:07:08,200 Okay, no. 64 00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:16,680 What did it meant in storage and what it meant in solar so they're in the report? 65 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:21,160 They said we needed to, from where we are in 2022 to get to where we want to get in 2045, 66 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:27,820 We need to buy renewables that are paid three times faster than we had up history, but 67 00:07:27,820 --> 00:07:32,420 energy storage, we had to buy it at eight times faster than we have in the past. 68 00:07:32,700 --> 00:07:36,920 Now this chart here shows where we were in 19, and actually this was a little early, so 69 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:42,380 by the end of 23, we actually had 8,000 megawatts of storage under grids. 70 00:07:42,460 --> 00:07:48,580 We went from 250 to 8,000 in four years, so pretty radical and pretty substantial successful 71 00:07:48,580 --> 00:08:10,720 charge to get us to where we want to go, and in 2035 we're looking at roughly 20,000 megawatts and 52,000 megawatts, and again in that plan currently it says about 2035 we should have about 2,000 megawatts along the recent storage and in 2045, 5,000 megawatts along the recent storage, so that kind of gives us a gold to work with next chart. 72 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:25,980 So I work in the R&D division and have for a long time, we have the current program, which is the Selected Program Investment Charge. 73 00:08:26,140 --> 00:08:38,260 I go back many years from, you have the peer program and Smud was our most successful awardee receiving more peer funds than any other entity in California. 74 00:08:38,740 --> 00:08:48,560 But so we did a large cessation back, started in 19 and we awarded in 2020 about 25 projects of which 11 of those were for 75 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:52,780 longer racing storage. Eight of them were actual demonstration projects of 10 hours or more. 76 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,720 And then three of those were early stage research for a hundred hours of storage. And one 77 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,820 of the interesting things we're learning and most of you will hear later form energy is 78 00:09:01,820 --> 00:09:06,680 that a hundred hours storage seems to be an interesting design point that keeps coming 79 00:09:06,680 --> 00:09:12,620 up. And so the three contracts were three different technology approaches to a hundred hours. 80 00:09:12,860 --> 00:09:18,240 All three of them projected the same. That commercial stage they would be able to produce 81 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:25,440 their product at $10 to $20 a kilowatt hour per current prices or $300 to $400 a kilowatt 82 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:26,240 hour for storage. 83 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,780 So a pretty substantial change if they're able to reach the goals they have next chart. 84 00:09:37,870 --> 00:09:45,010 So in 2022 or actually before that we requested funding of one of the challenges I mentioned 85 00:09:45,010 --> 00:09:50,330 with the 8,000 megawatts of storage we have virtually all of it, 99% is one technology. 86 00:09:50,330 --> 00:09:51,390 Let me admire it. 87 00:09:51,390 --> 00:09:56,990 So if we go forward, there is a value in diversification for a lot of reasons, but 88 00:09:56,990 --> 00:10:02,650 also we believe that long-distance storage provides some benefits of lower cost, and 89 00:10:02,650 --> 00:10:08,970 the picture of things, higher reliability, longer duration, and better safety records. 90 00:10:09,790 --> 00:10:15,810 Most of these technologies do not have thermal runaway or other issues that we've addressed with lifting my up. 91 00:10:15,810 --> 00:10:23,310 So we received $330 million last year, and also one of the things we asked for it received was the 92 00:10:23,310 --> 00:10:28,610 position of the ability to do non-competitive awards for people who met a certain criteria. 93 00:10:29,190 --> 00:10:34,830 And that's in the bill, and also the thing that's in the law is that we define long-duration storage in 94 00:10:34,830 --> 00:10:36,910 California as eight hours or more. 95 00:10:37,110 --> 00:10:42,990 DOE right now in their documentation claims it as 10 hours or more, but 96 00:10:42,990 --> 00:10:44,710 but the roughly the two of them are the same. 97 00:10:45,030 --> 00:10:47,510 So going forward, that's what we're doing here. 98 00:10:47,670 --> 00:10:49,750 So I'm going to kind of cover with you where we are today. 99 00:10:49,990 --> 00:10:53,310 We've been, by virtue of doing the non-competitive award, 100 00:10:53,790 --> 00:10:56,310 we actually awarded our first grant in less than four months. 101 00:10:57,210 --> 00:10:59,410 And we've been continuing to work that way 102 00:10:59,410 --> 00:11:01,910 and I'll show you all the projects that are in process 103 00:11:01,910 --> 00:11:02,990 as we go forward. 104 00:11:03,650 --> 00:11:04,130 Next chart. 105 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,160 So we currently are working with fielding 106 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,900 and working on agreements with six different non-lethian 107 00:11:13,900 --> 00:11:15,900 my own, long-duration stories technologies. 108 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:17,300 And this is a list here. 109 00:11:17,460 --> 00:11:19,460 Obviously, you'll recognize iron flow 110 00:11:19,460 --> 00:11:20,880 and because we do have a project 111 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,240 that I'll talk about briefly here. 112 00:11:23,540 --> 00:11:25,240 For that, we're three of these technologies. 113 00:11:25,500 --> 00:11:28,540 Our flow batteries, one of them is the zinc. 114 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,500 The other one is iron here, and the other one is zinc here. 115 00:11:32,660 --> 00:11:34,380 So the bottom two are both technologies 116 00:11:34,380 --> 00:11:38,540 that have the ability to hit that 100 hour mark next chart. 117 00:11:39,820 --> 00:11:42,920 So, we do have a project with SMAD. 118 00:11:43,660 --> 00:11:48,060 Jehoi Yang right there is our project manager, so you'll see more of him as it goes along. 119 00:11:48,140 --> 00:11:50,480 He's working with your team to actually do that. 120 00:11:50,860 --> 00:11:57,140 We are in the process of developing the grant as we speak, 10 million from the C-20 million 121 00:11:57,140 --> 00:12:02,980 from the SMAD, and we're looking at a project that's about 3.6 megawatts, 29 megawatt hours, 122 00:12:03,620 --> 00:12:07,240 and I think you're going to hear a little bit more about this when you hear your SMAD presentation. 123 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,240 So, we're interested because of the technology difference. 124 00:12:11,380 --> 00:12:18,300 And one of the reasons we're able to use SMUD, and this is a non-competitive award because you previously won the OE award. 125 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,920 And you haven't seen previously won many C awards under the peer program. 126 00:12:22,380 --> 00:12:25,560 So, you qualified under the law for a non-competitive award. 127 00:12:26,140 --> 00:12:31,360 And by virtue of going to you, you can select who you want to be your energy source provider. 128 00:12:31,620 --> 00:12:34,080 And because you were working with this company, which we were very interested, 129 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,840 If they do, every other, the five of you, the five, 130 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,500 all had previous epic awards. 131 00:12:40,180 --> 00:12:42,660 The ISS is the only one who doesn't have an epic award. 132 00:12:42,860 --> 00:12:46,120 So we are interesting in the recent Smudge use 133 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,060 to pick them, and I understand many of those, 134 00:12:48,340 --> 00:12:49,580 and we're very interested in working. 135 00:12:49,940 --> 00:12:52,920 We also are very excited about having a project 136 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,560 in our backyard, so as we go forward, 137 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,660 most of our projects are either way north or way south, 138 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,280 and so it's typically a flight or a day trip to see them. 139 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:08,020 We're hoping later that we'll be able to bring the legislature and our members and your 140 00:13:08,020 --> 00:13:13,820 members to get together and hopefully leverage that for additional funding in the long 141 00:13:13,820 --> 00:13:14,120 future. 142 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:15,100 Next chart. 143 00:13:16,220 --> 00:13:24,460 So our first project we awarded October of 22 was with the VA House tribe in San Diego. 144 00:13:25,060 --> 00:13:26,300 It was for $31 million. 145 00:13:26,340 --> 00:13:31,100 It was the largest grant this California had ever given to a Native American tribe. 146 00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:39,340 And this particular case, there are a very aggressive project on the left that shows you up in the upper right corner is a storage, 60 megawatt hours of storage. 147 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:45,200 The middle is solar, and all the less is a big parking garage where they're putting in electric vehicles. 148 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,080 And they're doing it in complete upgrade. 149 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:52,880 So this is, we're putting in an additional, we're actually adding 10 more megawatts as we speak. 150 00:13:52,900 --> 00:13:55,420 We're doing an amendment to that project to bring it a little bit bigger. 151 00:13:55,420 --> 00:13:59,420 They're commissioning, as the picture shows, they're putting in the systems now, 152 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,200 the batteries are sitting on the ground waiting to be installed. 153 00:14:02,820 --> 00:14:06,020 That will be the largest at 35 megawatt hours. 154 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:11,160 It'll be operational in July and it'll be the largest non-Lithia Mayan system in California. 155 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,400 Not the country but in California, next chart. 156 00:14:16,380 --> 00:14:19,760 The other one, if you've been around for storage and don't know who form energy is, 157 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:21,640 it's kind of missed a few things. 158 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:26,700 We have a project with them in the Bay Area to do a five megawatt, 500 megawatt hour system. 159 00:14:26,780 --> 00:14:30,340 It is the largest, not lithium ion system that we've awarded to date. 160 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:35,020 We've awarded that in December and we're expecting them to commission in about two years. 161 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:38,080 It is the front of the meter applications. 162 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:42,340 We're doing both front of the meter and behind the meter applications with these funds. 163 00:14:43,580 --> 00:14:47,540 And it's very important for us to understand how it's interesting that those who followed 164 00:14:47,540 --> 00:14:52,060 foreign ministry, foreign ministry has six gigawatts of orders and they haven't 165 00:14:52,060 --> 00:14:55,960 filled with a system yet so we also are one of those. We have a lot of 166 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,300 confidence in their ability to perform but it's going to be there is an 167 00:14:59,300 --> 00:14:59,680 element. 168 00:14:59,680 --> 00:14:59,800 Okay. 169 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:29,920 It'll be nice for making a walk up and touch the trailer and see it work. Next chart. Is that one, is that one a zinc technology? So again, is that zinc? No, that's the iron air technology. So it's similar to what you're doing, but not exactly the same, but the same iron air and iron flow are probably the closest to the six that we're working with. So, from there. And it turns out, I guess you guys know, but I iron based technologies have a long 170 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:42,700 I mean, 100-year history is not something, it's not a technology that is involved in one of the good things for us in today's world is almost all of their items are sourced in the U.S. 171 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:49,300 They don't have to go outside of the U.S. to build their system, so that's something that's very important to California and the U.S. right now. 172 00:15:49,740 --> 00:15:56,120 Let me get in a little, so let me add, can you just explain how the iron air technology would potentially work for a lay person? 173 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:56,940 I'm sorry. 174 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:57,140 What? 175 00:15:57,260 --> 00:15:58,520 How is that technology going to work? 176 00:15:58,700 --> 00:16:00,280 Do you take the iron and you burn it? 177 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,500 I'm going to let these guys produce that a little later. 178 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:04,220 It's just a battery. 179 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:05,620 I mean, to me, I'm sorry. 180 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,160 I'm a luxe engineer, not a chemist. 181 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,060 And so it's just basically a battery that flows back and forth. 182 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:16,460 I mean, the difference between that there's and flow and form is substantial. 183 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,000 And the way they build it, it's still the same technology. 184 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:24,580 So it basically, you know, what form in it you says is they're making rust. 185 00:16:24,580 --> 00:16:30,160 And then they're taking it off and building it up and taking it off and they're energy transfers when they do that 186 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:32,620 On the on the cathartic standards 187 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:39,360 So this one is actually a flow battery. This was the zinc bromine from red flow 188 00:16:39,820 --> 00:16:45,280 This is up north here. We're actually on thirsty. We're having a ground breaking ceremony on that one 189 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:51,180 So everything is done and we're ready to get started on that project and we're having a big a big presentation with the travel 190 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:57,240 members and our community and the chair of our commission and another of our commissioners will be there. 191 00:16:57,980 --> 00:17:02,820 So this project will basically provide them energy research. 192 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:10,020 One of the things you can see two of these projects were specifically for tribes that was at the specific direction of our chair. 193 00:17:10,380 --> 00:17:19,600 About a year ago, the CEC five commissioners and the PUC five commissioners all met at a triple site in Northern California. 194 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:24,420 And the first time all ten have ever been in the room together, and they've passed the resolution. 195 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:31,380 And the resolution basically says, look to the teacher, and we're going to help the tribes with their energy independence, 196 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,340 help them grow and help them prosper. 197 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:42,260 And so these are two examples of where we're actually delivering on that promise to help them become energy independent. 198 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:48,600 And also, more economically viable, this particular project will reduce their cost by 50%. 199 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,280 They also are FEMA rescue area up in the north. 200 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,800 So when there's wildfires and storms, they open up their tribe, all area, and 201 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:01,460 people come in that have lost their electricity or lost their ability to stay in home. 202 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,940 So they are providing not just for the tribe, but the local community services also, and 203 00:18:06,940 --> 00:18:10,820 these batteries will allow them to provide even higher levels of service. 204 00:18:11,220 --> 00:18:11,520 Next chart. 205 00:18:13,430 --> 00:18:15,030 We do a lot of work with the military. 206 00:18:15,690 --> 00:18:17,970 Penal 10 is one, we're doing a special project. 207 00:18:19,050 --> 00:18:23,470 Most people know that storage right now has this thing called the investment tax credit. 208 00:18:23,910 --> 00:18:26,870 And you can get 30 to 40% of your money back. 209 00:18:27,430 --> 00:18:29,130 So it makes it a great investment. 210 00:18:29,750 --> 00:18:35,250 So at this case, we're trying to do a third party own and operated large system, 300 megawatts. 211 00:18:35,290 --> 00:18:37,290 It's the biggest it'll be, it could be less than that. 212 00:18:37,810 --> 00:18:42,830 And it'll support the base for reliability reasons, and when they have exercises and contingencies. 213 00:18:43,670 --> 00:18:46,250 But that only happens a few hours a year. 214 00:18:46,250 --> 00:18:50,090 The rest of the time, they don't really need it, and it's going to be making money in the 215 00:18:50,090 --> 00:18:51,070 market selling energy. 216 00:18:51,270 --> 00:18:57,250 And so the goal here is to develop and demonstrate to the marketplace that Energy Storage and 217 00:18:57,250 --> 00:19:02,630 California and the world can actually make money and be profitable in these environments where 218 00:19:02,630 --> 00:19:09,010 they're able to both provide services to the immediate owner but also provide energy on 219 00:19:09,010 --> 00:19:12,410 the open market to support the grid and the reliability of the grid. 220 00:19:13,490 --> 00:19:14,010 Next chart. 221 00:19:14,530 --> 00:19:17,730 We're also doing a more classical project in the Navy based 222 00:19:17,730 --> 00:19:18,190 San Diego. 223 00:19:18,870 --> 00:19:22,770 They put in a bunch of solar, and we wanted to do a demonstration 224 00:19:22,770 --> 00:19:24,130 with another of our technologies. 225 00:19:24,890 --> 00:19:28,150 So we agreed to put in an eight megawatt hour system there. 226 00:19:28,350 --> 00:19:30,290 This is an interesting one, because it's space limited. 227 00:19:30,810 --> 00:19:34,510 And we have to limit our potential bidders to companies who 228 00:19:34,510 --> 00:19:35,750 can double stack their batteries. 229 00:19:35,870 --> 00:19:38,550 Most of these are in commercial trailers, commercial containers. 230 00:19:38,790 --> 00:19:42,150 And we want them to double stack them to be able to fit 231 00:19:42,150 --> 00:19:46,850 and the space to air. So we've got at least four technologies that we feel are viable, 232 00:19:47,070 --> 00:19:52,290 and we will have some type of limited competition for this one once the site is ready to go for it. 233 00:19:52,650 --> 00:19:57,750 Next chart. The other thing we've been doing is we have some additional work we're doing. We have 234 00:19:57,750 --> 00:20:03,970 a test facility that's located on Mirmar, a rain station in San Diego. It has five test stations 235 00:20:03,970 --> 00:20:11,250 right now. We're testing the first site as EOS, and it has infinity batteries, both. So the two of 236 00:20:11,250 --> 00:20:28,870 So we're testing both of them, we have a trailer, we're running through the full spectrum, we're testing performance, we're testing reliability, response time, safety procedures, and all those things are being developed there, and we will procure the next six months, a ESS battery that we will be putting in the facility to run through the same type of testing. 237 00:20:31,150 --> 00:20:33,310 We also received two DOE awards. 238 00:20:33,770 --> 00:20:39,310 One of them was with a contractor we have a long history with, and it's with the Valley Children's Hospital. 239 00:20:40,210 --> 00:20:47,390 And what we're trying to do is demonstrate the ability to get away from diesel generator back up and go into clean solar and storage. 240 00:20:48,010 --> 00:20:58,670 One of the interesting things, all these sites have unique elements, but this particular hospital is in a disadvantaged community where the large portion of their clientele and 241 00:20:58,670 --> 00:21:02,270 and patients use subsistence and special insurance. 242 00:21:02,770 --> 00:21:06,570 And if something happens, say there's a outage or a PSPS event 243 00:21:07,070 --> 00:21:08,310 and they're gonna go to the doctor 244 00:21:08,310 --> 00:21:09,790 and they go there and it's closed down, 245 00:21:10,250 --> 00:21:14,370 they have to drive three hours to get to the next hospital 246 00:21:14,790 --> 00:21:15,970 that will take their insurance. 247 00:21:16,410 --> 00:21:17,310 Pretty substantial. 248 00:21:17,970 --> 00:21:20,750 This system should allow them to run 24 hours a day 249 00:21:21,430 --> 00:21:26,450 and not only the emergency room and the surgery area, 250 00:21:26,450 --> 00:21:31,890 but the clinics will be backed up also, so it's a pretty substantial impact to the local community. 251 00:21:32,330 --> 00:21:35,330 The second project we're doing is with EZ Inc, which is one of the other two. 252 00:21:35,430 --> 00:21:37,010 I mentioned it was 100-hour candidate. 253 00:21:37,470 --> 00:21:44,970 We're doing a 12-hour system with them with the DOE, San Diego, we're actually doing it in Livermore. 254 00:21:45,630 --> 00:21:50,310 And we'll be demonstrating their capability to do this and then the next step for 255 00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:53,370 of them would be to go up to be able to do a multi-megawatt 256 00:21:53,370 --> 00:21:57,050 under-hour system and one of the next steps for it. 257 00:21:57,350 --> 00:21:57,730 Next chart. 258 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,140 The other thing that we were doing with the funding 259 00:22:02,140 --> 00:22:04,040 is we're looking specifically, if you remember, 260 00:22:04,220 --> 00:22:06,600 that chart showed you we're going from, you know, 261 00:22:06,660 --> 00:22:08,660 from eight to 19 and a half to 52. 262 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,000 So what happens is two things. 263 00:22:11,460 --> 00:22:14,140 One, when you have eight, you can use it all. 264 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:15,860 When you have 19, you probably need it all 265 00:22:15,860 --> 00:22:16,580 no matter what it is. 266 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,480 But when you hit the 50, you don't really need everything, 267 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,740 but 60 to 80 hours a year. 268 00:22:21,980 --> 00:22:24,760 You don't need it 24 hours a day, seven days a week. 269 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:26,320 And so the question becomes, 270 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,240 one, how can we use long duration storage 271 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,020 to lower the cost of supporting the state? 272 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,520 And second of all, how can we develop new rates and tariffs 273 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,660 so that someone today puts in a 100 megawatt eight hour system 274 00:22:41,220 --> 00:22:43,560 and in five years, you know, the first year 275 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,100 they're being called every day. 276 00:22:45,660 --> 00:22:47,640 And the next year they're being called every other day. 277 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,880 And the next year, twice a week, and then once a week, well, 278 00:22:50,940 --> 00:22:52,840 eventually they're going to get to the point where they're insolvent. 279 00:22:52,940 --> 00:22:56,500 So one of the questions we get into is when you're doing these projects and 280 00:22:56,500 --> 00:23:02,220 expanding with so much, how do we ensure that what we're putting in is valuable and 281 00:23:02,220 --> 00:23:06,940 we're not building a system that's going to collapse later. 282 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,880 And so we're doing this analysis, we're looking at rate structures, we're looking at scenarios. 283 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:16,920 To try and provide California the best understanding of what's the best 284 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:26,320 this mixture of the different technologies, and what's the cost realism, and how can we leverage the most cost effective solutions to meet those needs? 285 00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:27,580 Next chart. 286 00:23:28,860 --> 00:23:36,480 So obviously, commercialization is a big fact, and in California, the price of lithium ion is basically. 287 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:43,420 And so when I meet with all these companies, and I probably met with 40 companies in the last year that are not lithium ion providers, I ask them two things. 288 00:23:43,420 --> 00:23:48,540 One, when can you produce a gigawatt a year because most of them are doing it by hand. 289 00:23:48,780 --> 00:23:54,480 And what we've learned is if you can automate your production line, you can drop your price 290 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,300 30 to 40% just by automating it versus doing it manual. 291 00:23:58,540 --> 00:24:03,300 So that's become price competitive, which is the second thing, when will you be price competitive 292 00:24:03,300 --> 00:24:04,120 with lithium ion. 293 00:24:04,660 --> 00:24:09,140 So it's nice to have long duration storage, but we're not going to pay twice the price 294 00:24:09,140 --> 00:24:10,620 of lithium ion for long duration. 295 00:24:10,620 --> 00:24:12,820 If they can't give them, if they're not cross-dependent, 296 00:24:12,980 --> 00:24:15,080 then it's going to go away pretty fast. 297 00:24:15,300 --> 00:24:17,440 And so this chart just shows you the different technologies 298 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,560 and the research we're doing to show you where we think 299 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,940 they are when it comes to being able to become 300 00:24:23,940 --> 00:24:26,500 cross-competitive against lifting my own. 301 00:24:26,900 --> 00:24:27,300 Next chart. 302 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,080 The other thing that we run into obviously here, 303 00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:34,140 everybody from here with a couple of fires we had 304 00:24:34,140 --> 00:24:35,520 in California at Moss Landing. 305 00:24:36,100 --> 00:24:38,060 And so one of the things is now we're 306 00:24:38,060 --> 00:24:42,560 interesting different technologies. So when the fireman shows up, in this case in San Diego, 307 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:47,520 there are two technologies that are neither one that they're in. So what do they do? How do they, 308 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,320 we don't want them to just turn to water hose and destroy the battery. So we're training them 309 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:57,300 on the unique elements of these flow batteries and these liquid water-based batteries. 310 00:24:57,900 --> 00:25:02,200 One of the things we learned early was some of these systems can leak and where the 311 00:25:02,940 --> 00:25:07,500 chemicals are not toxic or not deadly, they still cause irritations on your skin 312 00:25:07,500 --> 00:25:12,840 And then you would normally wear kind of a hospital, I mean a robe, and wear gloves. 313 00:25:13,060 --> 00:25:14,600 And they say, well, we don't have that stuff. 314 00:25:14,740 --> 00:25:20,960 So one of the things we're going to do is we're going to put a trailer on site with all that gear right there for them. 315 00:25:21,220 --> 00:25:24,620 So when they show up, then they'll have what they need. 316 00:25:24,700 --> 00:25:30,380 And as we go through these six different technologies, we're going to develop what we consider a process for 317 00:25:30,380 --> 00:25:34,660 of the firefighters to be able to respond to their issue 318 00:25:34,660 --> 00:25:37,240 with to resolve the problem 319 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,880 and ideally without doing additional damage. 320 00:25:40,460 --> 00:25:40,760 Let's start. 321 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,060 And the last slide here is just to point out 322 00:25:44,060 --> 00:25:45,180 one of the things we're learning. 323 00:25:46,380 --> 00:25:47,880 So I've been doing storage a long time 324 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,980 and storage in general up until recently, 325 00:25:51,340 --> 00:25:53,700 these projects, sequel was not a big deal 326 00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:55,920 because there was somebody's sequel exemptions 327 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,780 when you're doing solar on the parking lot, 328 00:25:59,780 --> 00:26:05,260 solar on the roof. You don't need a waiver storage systems. It's at your backup storage. 329 00:26:05,260 --> 00:26:09,200 You're put to half a megawatt or a megawatt. Well, you do 30 or 40 megawatts. 330 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,860 All of a sudden, none of those fit. And I was said, now you've got this big battery 331 00:26:13,860 --> 00:26:18,660 all over the field. And you have to do an environmental study. You have to do everything to complete 332 00:26:18,660 --> 00:26:26,000 SQL. So it's for us for all projects. And so an example is to form an energy project that we have 333 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,020 in any Bay Area, the battery being installed on PG&E lands, 334 00:26:30,340 --> 00:26:32,900 most of it inside the fence of their substation. 335 00:26:33,460 --> 00:26:38,520 We spent six months getting to seek what done, to answer all the questions, 336 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,180 where the answer for the people who live next to it, about what's toxic, 337 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,860 what's how's it going to affect their quality, how's it going to affect my roads, 338 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,740 how's it going to affect these things, and those things, so we end up hard to do that. 339 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,840 So, there's an element where we do these projects that we're learning, 340 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:57,040 And even with Smud, even though you guys have done it for us to award to 10 million, 341 00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,820 we have to complete sequa as we define it. 342 00:27:00,180 --> 00:27:02,380 And so we're working in how I was helping. 343 00:27:02,500 --> 00:27:05,360 We're working with a contractor to work with Smud so we get that done. 344 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,560 Because we have to have that done to be able, and the current plan is to award that grant by July. 345 00:27:12,060 --> 00:27:13,840 And the other thing is, it's been through campus. 346 00:27:14,020 --> 00:27:18,040 I've been doing a lot, I mentioned a couple of projects that were commercially valuable projects. 347 00:27:18,060 --> 00:27:21,920 I've had many discussions and one of them asked me, well, 348 00:27:22,980 --> 00:27:32,680 I give them the whole story of why we selected the technology, how reliable it is, our history with it, and they say, well, what do you do for no work, how do you know it's not going to work? 349 00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:36,780 Well, I mean, I can't see it's going to work because we haven't built one that big yet. 350 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,880 We built a small one, but not a big one. 351 00:27:39,220 --> 00:27:41,840 And we've been through with them with a bit different versions. 352 00:27:41,860 --> 00:27:44,320 So it was a fair question, but I mean, we try to answer this. 353 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,920 So, we're finding that more and more investors are stepping up. 354 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:55,920 I have an investor that I'm working with who has 200 megawatt, eight hour projects, proposals, 355 00:27:57,100 --> 00:28:03,380 TPPA with two utilities in California and they're prepared to back up the 20 year PPA. 356 00:28:03,780 --> 00:28:08,440 I only have one, none of the other technology has brought an investor ready to do that yet. 357 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:14,760 So, and then, of course, one of the benefits now with the ITC is the faster you do it the 358 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,100 more you get, the longer you go away, the actually see value comes down. 359 00:28:18,540 --> 00:28:22,600 So there's a big point to try to get these projects and if you can do the manufacturing 360 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:27,380 in the U.S., then you get another 10 percent, and next year, I think I see it. 361 00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:32,140 So I'm happy to answer questions or turn it over to your next speaker. 362 00:28:32,300 --> 00:28:33,380 Any questions at all from the group? 363 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:35,740 Mike, thank you. 364 00:28:35,740 --> 00:28:43,240 This is, I mean, it's really encouraging to see that some of the new technologies and longer storage that are actually getting approaching viability, so that's good. 365 00:28:44,380 --> 00:28:53,920 We've got, I mean, all the projections are showing a big increase in battery electric vehicles, fleets, buses, and private cars. 366 00:28:54,100 --> 00:29:03,260 It's the CDC doing anything to ensure vehicle-to-grid technology and also the market structures that needed to that. 367 00:29:03,260 --> 00:29:05,120 So we're doing all, we're doing all that. 368 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,460 So when I mentioned that project, we did $100 billion, 369 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,340 25 grants, so a level of a malongration storage, 370 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:12,640 we had vehicle second use. 371 00:29:13,260 --> 00:29:14,780 We had lithium-ion improvements, 372 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,460 so they were looking for the technology improvement. 373 00:29:16,620 --> 00:29:19,000 We had lithium-ion life extension, 374 00:29:19,420 --> 00:29:22,500 and also we're doing a lot of studying on recycle. 375 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:24,720 What do you do at the end of the life and what it is? 376 00:29:24,860 --> 00:29:27,200 Now, you know, one of the discussions I have, 377 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,740 I'm not talking about non-lithymionist, 378 00:29:29,820 --> 00:29:31,920 that how many here have a cell phone or a laptop? 379 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,360 And so, again, how many has yourself on the laptop with a 10-year battery in it, and nobody 380 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:37,040 raises their hand? 381 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,940 It's the same technology, isn't it, so the more you use it, the more people tell you 382 00:29:40,940 --> 00:29:41,780 it's like a loaf of bread. 383 00:29:42,260 --> 00:29:45,920 The more slices you pull out, the faster the good loaf of bread goes away. 384 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:46,920 Not true. 385 00:29:47,140 --> 00:29:52,640 If somebody thinks you can exercise them every day from zero to top all day long, and in 20 years 386 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:57,520 they continue to operate with maybe two or three percent reduction, but nothing substantial. 387 00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,880 So there is some value when it comes to these. 388 00:30:00,180 --> 00:30:29,860 I actually, I've been doing a grant with the help of the light rail system put in a grant because they wanted to look at their system and they have, and we did this once, actually, we did a project with smud many years ago with the light rail system, not what you used to let the Mayan battery stand, but we're using batteries. So when the train comes in, it charges even at least at this charges. And so, but in their case, they go from zero to ten megawatts for five to ten minutes and they're backed out of zero, and they don't do anything until the next train comes in. 389 00:30:29,860 --> 00:30:31,200 which is 45 minutes, I said, 390 00:30:31,540 --> 00:30:34,660 but that's a terrible, you know, use case for the Lithuanian. 391 00:30:35,140 --> 00:30:37,560 But it's not the terrible use case for many of these 392 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,680 non-Lithuan mind, but again, no one's proven it works yet. 393 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,320 So that's the type of thing we're doing. 394 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:47,020 So fortunately, I am finding there's no shortage of investors 395 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,160 who will invest in companies as venture capitalists 396 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:51,940 where they can invest for 45 years 397 00:30:51,940 --> 00:30:53,580 and sell their shares and get their money back. 398 00:30:54,020 --> 00:30:56,520 There is just not a lot of them that are ready to say, 399 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,300 OK, I'll make my five or eight percent a year for the next 20 years. 400 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:07,540 And how do I guarantee you'll be here in 20, 25 years because the one difference is in here 401 00:31:07,540 --> 00:31:11,020 is with not only if you mind I showed you to a six different technologies and they're all 402 00:31:11,020 --> 00:31:11,640 pretty different. 403 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:17,780 If one of those companies is out there and you have a 20 year PPA and they go bankrupt because 404 00:31:17,780 --> 00:31:23,140 of embezzlement or because of just pure mismanagement, nothing to do with technology, just pure mismanagement. 405 00:31:23,620 --> 00:31:27,280 It's hard to find somebody to come in and take over that project. 406 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,680 If you have lithium ion, there's a hundred companies in Shell lithium ion. 407 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,880 If you got a 20 year PPA and you're a 5 and that company goes bankrupt, there's ten 408 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,980 companies that will come in and pick it up and they'll probably charge you a little premium 409 00:31:37,980 --> 00:31:39,460 to do it but there's not going to be a problem. 410 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:45,080 If you get a proprietary technology, it's hard to find somebody that's come in and take over 411 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,220 that project when you're a 5 or 10 years down the road and you're still looking for another 412 00:31:49,220 --> 00:31:49,840 10 years. 413 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,380 but the company that you selected was not a good company. 414 00:31:54,100 --> 00:31:55,060 Anyway, any other questions? 415 00:31:55,180 --> 00:31:56,260 Does anybody else have any questions? 416 00:31:56,260 --> 00:31:57,340 I mean, take questions, much time. 417 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,020 Anyway, so I'm happy to answer questions in the future. 418 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:03,780 I'm looking forward to working with you. 419 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:08,780 Yeah, I'll ask a quick brief question. 420 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,460 There was 100 million in 2020, and then 140 million, 421 00:32:12,580 --> 00:32:13,720 and then the 190 million. 422 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:20,800 And is there more, is there ongoing finding sort of projected, or is that sort of so? 423 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,740 So, anyway, so here's the situation. 424 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,720 Everybody knows what's happening in California right now, the budget issue. 425 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:32,140 So it actually, we got 190 million last year, and they came to us and said, hey, 426 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:37,360 we want to take back 50 million, but we're going to give you 50 million of different type of funds, 427 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:38,840 which you can use, GGRF funds. 428 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,860 Yeah, OK, we didn't lose anything, in fact, of the whole R&D effort. 429 00:32:42,860 --> 00:32:48,460 We've got ten-twelfth projects, we've been the only project that did not lose substantial 430 00:32:48,460 --> 00:32:54,720 cuts so that the legislature was very interested, so they ask us about asking for more money 431 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:59,660 and they kind of said, look, you know, you've got a good year, be happy with it, okay, okay. 432 00:33:00,140 --> 00:33:07,680 However, next year, next year, in 25, we think, we'll have a lot more projects working, and 433 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:12,600 one of the benefits by doing this non-competitive award for those six technologies is we're going 434 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,840 I'm going to have systems working that people can see and get data for. 435 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,400 And then we can take that to the legislature and say, look, let us do more. 436 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,760 And I think we're planning on doing that in 25, up to 24. 437 00:33:23,100 --> 00:33:26,500 And I think there's a good chance that we would be, because GGRF funds, 438 00:33:27,660 --> 00:33:33,340 they have a considerable amount of funds, and so we can potentially get another 300, 400 million to do projects then. 439 00:33:33,460 --> 00:33:33,900 That's our goal. 440 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:39,700 But right now, they said, take what you got and be happy, and I just said, I'm a military guy, I absolutely said. 441 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:48,260 It's not a permanent allocation of the GGRF, correct, is that it isn't an annual appropriation from the legislature? 442 00:33:50,020 --> 00:33:54,280 How does this find, I guess let me ask that, it's not the clean transportation fund, what's been your vehicle? 443 00:33:54,520 --> 00:34:05,900 So when we asked for the money, we asked for specific use cases application, we wanted to do a megawatt, eight hours is a minimum, we wanted to focus on 10, 20 or 30 megawatt hours. 444 00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:11,220 We wanted to take the industry and give them a jump, but not such a big jump, but we're going to choke them. 445 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:17,280 So, but every project we got, everyone we've given to, it's the biggest project they've done in most cases. 446 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:29,600 And so, we are looking specifically at utility scale and big customer, behind a meter project, specifically at demonstrating enough, 447 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,440 Now, my goal was to say, look, I'm going to give you this. 448 00:34:33,020 --> 00:34:36,880 The next project I want you to be able to do is 200 to 400 megawatts, because if you 449 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,780 look at 52,000 megawatts, we're not going to get that at 5 megawatts at a time. 450 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:46,860 We have to get up to 100 megawatts, and we're not going to get any of these technologies in 451 00:34:46,860 --> 00:34:47,240 the mix. 452 00:34:47,580 --> 00:34:54,700 And so, right now, most of those are telling me, 27, 28, 29, if they get some success and they 453 00:34:54,700 --> 00:34:58,580 get a project and get a follow-on project, they can get the money to do their manufacturing, 454 00:34:58,580 --> 00:35:00,280 and they can bring their price down. 455 00:35:00,420 --> 00:35:02,040 I mean, we actually helped one of the, 456 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:03,560 what we helped us. 457 00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:06,800 We put a good word in for one of the technologies 458 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,100 to get a $400 million loan to do their manufacturing. 459 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,900 I was with, I was with the DOE, 460 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,200 have a dinner in DC, and I made a comment, 461 00:35:15,540 --> 00:35:18,600 we want them to be able to do one or two gigawatts a year 462 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,940 so we can sell two or three gigawatts 463 00:35:21,940 --> 00:35:22,760 and they can deliver. 464 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,120 He said, oh no, I want them to do five gigawatts. 465 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:26,500 I want them to have enough money to do five. 466 00:35:26,660 --> 00:35:28,280 I said, well, I'm not going to argue with that one. 467 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,000 But because if you don't have that capacity, it's a chicken in the egg. 468 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,200 Nobody's gonna order the gigawatt in just four years to get it, it just ain't gonna happen. 469 00:35:37,260 --> 00:35:41,700 When you put up your commercial readiness level, I'm more familiar with the technical readiness level. 470 00:35:41,820 --> 00:35:46,100 De, how do you see this early financing and trying to build scale? 471 00:35:46,260 --> 00:35:50,240 How will that reduce the timing on that readiness level? 472 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,180 Again, this is speculation, but my belief is having been doing this for 20 years and 473 00:35:54,180 --> 00:35:56,040 and having worked, trying to put different people. 474 00:35:56,180 --> 00:35:58,700 I think by virtue of these projects getting out 475 00:35:58,700 --> 00:36:01,940 at a reasonable scale, I mean, going from 100 kilowatts 476 00:36:01,940 --> 00:36:04,340 to 10 megawatts is impossible. 477 00:36:05,220 --> 00:36:07,520 But going from 10 or 20 megawatts to 100 megawatts 478 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,640 is not impossible, it's a very logical thing. 479 00:36:09,740 --> 00:36:12,640 So I'm trying to convince people and trying to convince that. 480 00:36:12,740 --> 00:36:14,500 I do a lot of speaking with the investment market 481 00:36:14,500 --> 00:36:18,240 I'm trying to convince early adopters to be prepared to help. 482 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:19,480 And we're having success. 483 00:36:19,980 --> 00:36:23,100 Obviously you guys are a big player with, you know, 484 00:36:23,100 --> 00:36:26,600 You guys, we want them to be successful, there's no question. 485 00:36:27,260 --> 00:36:32,440 Ideally, all six of them would be successful and be able to reach here, probably won't happen for all six. 486 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:39,160 I think three or four are at least three or four all to pass to be successful and that's what we're hoping for. 487 00:36:39,420 --> 00:36:40,440 So it's overdoing it. 488 00:36:40,580 --> 00:36:41,520 Perfect, thank you for that. 489 00:36:41,620 --> 00:36:47,760 And I just want to thank you and the Energy Commission for the help on the ESS project. 490 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,860 when it first came to our board it's been a few years now and it's sort of like 491 00:36:50,860 --> 00:36:55,720 we're feeding out a lot of line and a blank check and so it's good to appreciate 492 00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:59,480 having the support and we're really happy to partner with you guys and we're 493 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,140 really looking forward and we'll spend more time on the sites and stuff and it's 494 00:37:03,140 --> 00:37:07,540 just it's perfect for all of us I mean so I'm hoping when we get ready to talk 495 00:37:07,540 --> 00:37:10,280 for more money we can bring them out here and show them what's coming and then 496 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,880 later show them what's here and so you know not only for us but for you guys you 497 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,040 know to get additional funding down a road for different grants you know we do 498 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:23,780 quite a bit of work with DOE and we do partner and we're actually doing some work with your grip projects right now as you're putting in as we are. 499 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:30,760 So it's a great partnership, you know, with Epic because you don't participate, we don't, we can't do anything with you because of that. 500 00:37:30,860 --> 00:37:39,340 But that's true for DOE and not true for this program. There's no, this is general fund, basically, so there's no restrictions. That's why we're here and that's why we're doing the project. 501 00:37:39,980 --> 00:37:42,500 We'll take checks or cash, Mike. 502 00:37:45,420 --> 00:37:47,780 I have a question for you, sorry. 503 00:37:49,300 --> 00:37:57,400 What I'm curious about, you know, I'm looking at this and it's basically, you know, the commercial readiness level. 504 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:07,620 What I'm wondering is, are you working with any, you know, public entities like, you know, city or county government 505 00:38:07,620 --> 00:38:16,440 And since they have such huge fleets and would definitely benefit from having batteries 506 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:22,080 to store energy during the time when it's best. 507 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,020 Are you working with any government? 508 00:38:25,420 --> 00:38:31,480 I think we have a 70 million out of the station coming out in July that would be open to any city 509 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:32,720 in the state that wants to do that. 510 00:38:32,740 --> 00:38:33,040 Okay. 511 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,320 And so it'll be about five projects for a good size project, but so we've been advertising 512 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:41,260 And I mean, we do work in, we are working with them on some of the DOE applications. 513 00:38:41,780 --> 00:38:45,080 So we're helping them, our partner with them to see if they can get the DOE funds. 514 00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:49,380 But this particular project, I mean, you're going to, I mean, I had a problem with one 515 00:38:49,380 --> 00:38:51,680 of the associations who handle storage companies. 516 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,200 And when we got the money, they're upset because they're perfect, and we're going to give 517 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:56,200 everybody their first share. 518 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,120 And I said, yeah, when you'll spend it, we won't have nothing, I said, we're not doing that. 519 00:39:00,240 --> 00:39:02,120 We're going to focus on what we ask for. 520 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:03,660 We're going to commercialize technology. 521 00:39:03,660 --> 00:39:06,580 If we're successful, they'll be successful. 522 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:06,920 Yeah. 523 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:08,700 Of course, the other people, and I can tell you, 524 00:39:08,780 --> 00:39:10,380 I can say, the adventure capitalists, 525 00:39:10,460 --> 00:39:12,420 and I talk to a lot of them, and they call me on the town 526 00:39:12,420 --> 00:39:14,040 about what's the California look like, 527 00:39:14,100 --> 00:39:15,500 what's the technology look like in the share. 528 00:39:15,660 --> 00:39:16,520 Everything we do is public. 529 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:18,800 So I don't have to worry about India, and stuff. 530 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:20,600 So I just share what I have, 531 00:39:20,780 --> 00:39:22,780 try to convince them, take a chance. 532 00:39:23,260 --> 00:39:24,740 You know, I think the time is right. 533 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,840 I use another analogy, you guys were around, 534 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:28,520 and there are days many of you were, 535 00:39:29,220 --> 00:39:30,820 and DOE put in $200 million, 536 00:39:31,420 --> 00:39:32,660 and we put in $30 million, 537 00:39:32,660 --> 00:39:38,040 college, we did about ten projects in California, every company who got that money is no longer 538 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:38,260 around. 539 00:39:39,500 --> 00:39:46,200 But because what happened was at the time, they all expanded, hired 20, 30 people, never 540 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:47,060 got a second order. 541 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:52,780 Now in this case, what I track and all these guys is the orders they're getting, and not 542 00:39:52,780 --> 00:39:58,160 only I mean, I'm trying to help them, but I mean all of these six people have orders besides 543 00:39:58,160 --> 00:39:58,740 our order. 544 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:00,020 We're not the only order. 545 00:40:00,020 --> 00:40:02,980 They're out there with DOE, they're out there with communities, and they're getting 546 00:40:02,980 --> 00:40:08,100 other orders, and they're using what we're doing to leverage other people to convince 547 00:40:08,100 --> 00:40:11,880 them they're a player in the industry, and that's what I'm thinking. All six of them 548 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:19,280 can be successful because we're helping them with the selling part and giving them the capability 549 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:24,320 to grow. But at the end of the day, it's up to them. I've been through about a dozen bankruptcies, 550 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,920 and we had one that just kind of closed your doors. We had five sites with incomplete systems 551 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,700 that we had to take out, and that's the terrible thing to go through. 552 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:34,740 And that's one of the things when I talk to investors. 553 00:40:34,740 --> 00:40:35,660 I'm honest, you know. 554 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:36,860 I do a lot. 555 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,680 When we go through these projects, I do a lot of analysis on the company's financials, 556 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,660 their management structure, the technology, and their probability of success 557 00:40:45,660 --> 00:40:46,960 so that we don't invest. 558 00:40:47,220 --> 00:40:51,280 I don't want to invest $40 million in somebody who goes bankrupt for two years. 559 00:40:51,740 --> 00:40:56,160 And so we have to be comfortable at least, at least for the next two or three years. 560 00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:01,700 You can't predict beyond that, but you can predict who's on a solid path and who's on a rocky path. 561 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:08,540 I actually do, for all of our grants, I actually do a financial resume, other books every year, just to be sure everything looks good. 562 00:41:09,540 --> 00:41:10,760 Anyway, thank you all very much. 563 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:11,240 Thank you. 564 00:41:11,540 --> 00:41:12,000 Thank you. 565 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,680 Our next step is Joel Bodesma, Director of Power Generation. 566 00:41:17,700 --> 00:41:18,680 Good evening, Board. 567 00:41:24,180 --> 00:41:30,560 So, going into our project on the ESS flow, and I think you guys asked Director Rose asked 568 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:36,460 a little bit about like internally how does the battery work, not being a battery expert 569 00:41:36,460 --> 00:41:40,720 per se, but it is a chemical reaction that goes on in the battery. 570 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:46,340 So you really, it's made up of, the electrolyte is made up of iron, salt, and water. 571 00:41:46,340 --> 00:41:52,000 So, that's really those two canisters you see at the end, and it's basically a chemical 572 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:57,940 reaction where when you put electricity from the grid, it's forcing some of the ions 573 00:41:57,940 --> 00:42:02,820 to move from one side of the battery to the other and then charging the cells that are 574 00:42:02,820 --> 00:42:04,260 inside that container. 575 00:42:04,540 --> 00:42:05,580 So, that's how you're storing. 576 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:11,820 So, when you're discharging, it's taking those ions or those ions to move back the other 577 00:42:11,820 --> 00:42:16,940 way and basically when ions move a electrical engineers say that that's when the electrons 578 00:42:16,940 --> 00:42:21,720 are moving and current is the flow of electrons. So you get these electrons that are moving 579 00:42:21,720 --> 00:42:28,460 from one side to the other, i.e. being stored in the cells and i.e. creating the battery. 580 00:42:29,060 --> 00:42:34,100 So there's a membrane in the middle where these ions move across. So that's really the 581 00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:40,160 internal of the battery. The energy warehouse which is their first generation, really it's 582 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:41,880 the beginning of their batteries. 583 00:42:42,420 --> 00:42:43,980 Everything is in one container. 584 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,080 All the electronics, the controls, 585 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,600 and the electrolyte containers are all in this one, 586 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,780 40 by eight by nine and a half foot container. 587 00:42:53,720 --> 00:42:57,500 So the partnership that SmudEnter had phases 588 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,960 and the first phase was really this demonstration phase 589 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,440 where we would build up to four megawatts 590 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,620 of long duration energy storage. 591 00:43:05,860 --> 00:43:08,660 And really this phase was to make sure 592 00:43:08,660 --> 00:43:11,680 that we could achieve reliability and performance 593 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,420 and that it ended being a cost-effective system 594 00:43:15,420 --> 00:43:18,100 for SMUD, next slide. 595 00:43:19,540 --> 00:43:21,880 So as far as where are we right now with phase one, 596 00:43:22,020 --> 00:43:23,880 if you recall, I did a presentation 597 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,300 at a couple of zero carbon plant updates, 598 00:43:26,500 --> 00:43:31,280 but last spring, we really started the iron flow battery 599 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:35,580 project where we began the construction at Hedge 600 00:43:35,580 --> 00:43:41,900 Where we did the civil work to remove some equipment some solar old solar panels that were there and really 601 00:43:41,900 --> 00:43:49,360 Do the civil work to be able to put these containers down so we ordered six they came in in the summer 602 00:43:49,980 --> 00:43:56,420 We began construction there and we finished that construction around mid-September 603 00:43:56,420 --> 00:44:03,320 So around mid-September the batteries were in place and they passed what's called a site acceptance test 604 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,520 So that's not commissioning the battery. 605 00:44:05,700 --> 00:44:10,100 That just means that the vendors delivered the batteries 606 00:44:10,100 --> 00:44:13,500 and we were able to start the systems and operate them 607 00:44:13,500 --> 00:44:15,840 and the systems tested okay. 608 00:44:16,540 --> 00:44:19,040 So really from there though is where a lot 609 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:20,920 of the hard work began for SMUD, 610 00:44:21,020 --> 00:44:22,940 which is really how do you take these batteries 611 00:44:23,630 --> 00:44:29,380 and integrate a controller and the battery itself has a system 612 00:44:29,380 --> 00:44:32,540 that's managing all the electrolyte, the pumps 613 00:44:32,540 --> 00:44:37,100 that are moving the electrolyte from one side to the other, charging the cells. 614 00:44:37,900 --> 00:44:44,700 But then we still need to connect the controller that's going to be what speaks with the battery 615 00:44:45,490 --> 00:44:51,060 and with our own SCADA system, our own controls with, say, our distribution system operator 616 00:44:51,060 --> 00:44:57,420 or our power system operator, whichever side these batteries are, whether they're utility scale or distribution. 617 00:44:57,900 --> 00:44:59,760 That has taken a lot of effort. 618 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:28,760 From smud and ESS to really select the controller, start creating all the hooks of all the data that's flowing between the two systems. So we've been doing that up to now. And because it is a Gen 1, really working with the SS on working out all the kinks with the batteries, you know, that comes with any Gen 1 battery system. So we have been doing that. We're now at the point where we're finishing up that controller work. 619 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:37,940 That integration and we're now bringing in DSO or distribution system operator or the operators and the PSO operators to make sure 620 00:45:37,940 --> 00:45:44,540 That not only do they have all the documentation and understanding of how these batteries work 621 00:45:44,540 --> 00:45:50,480 But all the alarming that comes with it do they know when alarm comes in what do they have to take an action? 622 00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:56,600 Is it information? Oh do they need to call somebody out? So we're working through all those requirements with the SS 623 00:45:57,140 --> 00:46:13,140 So that at the end of this phase, we're ready to enter into the true operational testing of the energy warehouse where ESS and all the engineers are the project people that have been on the project are kind of hands off. 624 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:23,840 The keys are given to the operator and now they're charging and discharging the battery as it as it's supposed to and it's going to be on a schedule on a schedule. 625 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:28,880 so it will be charging during the day and discharging at a set time in the evening. 626 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,180 Any questions on where we are with the energy warehouse? 627 00:46:35,700 --> 00:46:36,580 Quick question. 628 00:46:37,700 --> 00:46:39,200 So what are we doing on the safety side? 629 00:46:39,300 --> 00:46:44,320 I was interested to hear that on some of those batteries, they have to have a special onsite 630 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,720 trailer for the fire department to actually use the right equipment on batteries. 631 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,640 Do we have anything like that or are we training with the? 632 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:56,080 But the good thing about this technology is because of, you know, it's the electrolyte 633 00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:01,640 is salt water and iron, there's really not a lot of hazard material that comes with 634 00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:01,800 it. 635 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:06,820 Now, there is still containment in case there's leaks, but it's more containing the electrolyte 636 00:47:06,820 --> 00:47:10,860 not so much that it's hazardous material as far as the thermal runaway these batteries 637 00:47:10,860 --> 00:47:15,280 don't have because they're not lithium, they don't really have that issue. 638 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:32,180 And so that's what makes this technology kind of nice to look at is because not only does it offer long-term, long-duration energy storage, but it also doesn't come with some of those other problems, I guess you would call them to come with the lithium battery. 639 00:47:32,380 --> 00:47:38,120 You know, everything has its pros and cons, but that's part of the selling point of this technology. 640 00:47:38,760 --> 00:48:00,880 Now they do have to get, they do have to meet California fire code and so we have been working with them on making sure they get all the certifications because but that's more around, you know, how close it can be to other containers, how close it can be to any buildings and all that that we're making sure we meet but up to now things are looking good for the energy warehouse. 641 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:05,240 house. They're still in the process of getting their fire code certification for the energy 642 00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:10,600 center, which is the next project. Next slide. 643 00:48:12,060 --> 00:48:16,720 So the energy center is a little bit dimmium before we go on because I'm just peeking ahead. 644 00:48:17,940 --> 00:48:26,800 Where are we in terms of integration with our Derm system and our ADMS system? Let me look 645 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:31,220 it's Russia, yes. What does that, what does that phasing look like in those time frames? 646 00:48:35,540 --> 00:48:41,740 So, ADMS is live and functioning, and we went live with the Delms phase one last year. 647 00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:47,640 We September, October of this year is the phase two, and those parts of the project phase 648 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:52,600 two and the phase three, now we incorporated it into the group grant proposal also. So, 649 00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:59,200 the phase three and the phase four still we are negotiating on the scope of the project director, 650 00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:03,900 And if you let me get back to you on the specific details on the phase 3 and phase 4, 651 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:04,980 a lot of you haven't. 652 00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:10,060 Yeah, just to add to that, Director Rose, because of the size of this technology and 653 00:49:10,060 --> 00:49:15,040 utility scale, it actually connects into our distribution skater and so the visibility 654 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:15,800 for DSO. 655 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,680 And that's the work that Joel was talking about with the operators, making sure that they 656 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:21,840 can see what's happening with this device. 657 00:49:23,020 --> 00:49:27,280 But I do think when we talk about McClellan and we get to more utility scale, then we 658 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:31,800 will be, you know, that'll have to come in after these upgrades are done so 659 00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:39,940 that PSO has access and control of those battery systems. So phase 1b, this is 660 00:49:39,940 --> 00:49:44,520 their energy center. So there's, I'm sure a lot of learning from the energy 661 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:48,560 warehouse that ESS has been making and really incorporated that into their new 662 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:53,400 design. You know, now that we've really worked with them on the controller for 663 00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:58,260 the energy warehouse, now that the controller component of the energy center becomes easier 664 00:49:58,260 --> 00:50:01,640 because they've already worked through that, the alarming and the manuals and all that. 665 00:50:02,540 --> 00:50:07,260 But, and those of you, from the picture you can see that the electrolyte is at the bottom 666 00:50:07,260 --> 00:50:12,520 and then they have all the electronics and the controls and the container above, so that's 667 00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:19,880 the configuration of the energy center, so you get more long duration energy storage because 668 00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:25,220 you have more electrolyte containers, but you can see that it's almost like a two-stacked 669 00:50:25,220 --> 00:50:26,720 container configuration. 670 00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:34,440 You know, really to move to this phase is really we want to finish the commissioning of 671 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:35,660 the energy warehouse. 672 00:50:36,060 --> 00:50:41,840 We want to make sure that we worked out all the kinks and it works and that fire code review 673 00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:48,360 that was done on the energy warehouse, but now that this is a larger container with more 674 00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:53,900 more electrolyte. We need to make sure that they get their fire code review done and they're in 675 00:50:53,900 --> 00:51:00,200 process right now of doing that. I want to put a lot of highlight on that commissioning, successful 676 00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:05,500 commissioning. You know, there's been a lot of work up to this point. That's going to be the true 677 00:51:05,500 --> 00:51:12,120 test of the battery system, you know, how well it performs night in and day in night out, you know, 678 00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:22,700 because it needs to be able to charge reliably every day and discharge and be hands free from the operator so that we know that it's ready for operation. 679 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:38,980 We'll be doing that hopefully starting in the next month as they're finishing up all the working out all the use case scenarios, all the testing scripts, getting everything done, and then we'll be going into that phase and then getting it ready for commission. 680 00:51:38,980 --> 00:51:47,140 And this phase is really where, as Mike talked about that, the grant on the 3.6 megawatts 681 00:51:47,140 --> 00:51:50,360 is really going to be out of this energy center. 682 00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:54,740 And we're planning on doing most of it there at the hedge site. 683 00:51:59,190 --> 00:52:01,210 Any questions on the energy center? 684 00:52:03,660 --> 00:52:04,100 Next slide. 685 00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:08,240 Now, let's move on to McClellan. 686 00:52:08,240 --> 00:52:13,380 And so a lot of internal work at Smudd on McClellan. 687 00:52:13,660 --> 00:52:15,640 You know, that's a project that, you know, 688 00:52:15,720 --> 00:52:17,680 as you guys have asked in the past, you know, 689 00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:18,900 is there any infill projects, 690 00:52:18,980 --> 00:52:21,900 any projects that we can do more quickly? 691 00:52:22,100 --> 00:52:24,120 Well, this was the product of that. 692 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:29,140 So that rendering has the north side and the south side 693 00:52:29,940 --> 00:52:33,680 of that corner and on the bottom, on the bottom side, 694 00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:34,980 you can kind of see the rendering 695 00:52:34,980 --> 00:52:40,280 of the substation connections there on the left side but that's what with those 696 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:43,880 batteries that's what we're envisioning it's going to look like it'll be a 697 00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:52,540 75 megawatt four-hour bez because of its location and our ability to 698 00:52:52,540 --> 00:52:57,800 incorporate this project into the grip grant we were able to not just meet our 699 00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:02,860 own battery storage requirements for our zero-carbon plan but it adds 700 00:53:02,860 --> 00:53:25,220 resiliency into that area. So for doing that, we worked with our distribution and our transmission planning so they could create, you know, they could build a design that would add a couple substations so that we could charge and discharge out into the market and, you know, and take advantage of all that market. 701 00:53:25,220 --> 00:53:30,680 it, you know, just the functionality of it, but at the same time, whenever there's a 702 00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:35,220 need for liability resiliency in that local area with some switching, they could switch 703 00:53:35,650 --> 00:53:40,740 those batteries over into that local distribution and be able to support that area. 704 00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:50,280 So kind of a dual function resource there that was hopefully that grip grant will get awarded 705 00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:52,160 and we can go ahead and build this project 706 00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,180 with two new substations. 707 00:53:55,060 --> 00:53:58,580 We're targeting the end of 26, early 27. 708 00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:01,680 Now this is a project that's dependent on those upgrades 709 00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:05,440 for Durham's so that the PSO has the ability 710 00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,460 to see this facility and control it. 711 00:54:09,180 --> 00:54:11,300 We've started the CEQA process, 712 00:54:11,720 --> 00:54:13,000 but because it's an infill, 713 00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,080 we don't think it's gonna be any problems with that. 714 00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:30,580 We did have a land option that expires in May of 2025, but we're way ahead of having done all the preliminary design, all the feasibility studies, everything to prove that this is a good project for us. 715 00:54:33,870 --> 00:54:35,990 I'm thrilled about this because this isn't my word. 716 00:54:36,970 --> 00:54:39,830 And it's right near our peaker plant, right? 717 00:54:40,430 --> 00:54:41,390 How close is it? 718 00:54:41,510 --> 00:54:43,490 What are the intersections there? 719 00:54:43,570 --> 00:54:45,130 Is that on MacColelland's space? 720 00:54:45,130 --> 00:54:55,150 Yeah, it's it's kitty. It's I don't know like hundreds of yards away from it's really close and it's really close and we're actually going to connect up to 721 00:54:55,150 --> 00:55:05,790 The line that the peeker plant is on to go out into the grid. I don't remember the exact you know from a mile perspective how far we are, but we're really close on that corner. 722 00:55:05,790 --> 00:55:15,430 And that would help us also create the resiliency for hotlamping that plant or permanently turning 723 00:55:15,430 --> 00:55:16,990 it off, which we've discussed. 724 00:55:17,810 --> 00:55:23,170 Yeah, I mean, I think all these resources are part of the portfolio that's needed to 725 00:55:23,710 --> 00:55:29,350 reliably retool or repurpose a lot of those plants. 726 00:55:29,350 --> 00:55:39,410 So I can't say that this one directly affects, you know, the retirement of that plant, but it sure is part of the pool of resources that's an 727 00:55:39,410 --> 00:55:48,310 had reliability because I think in, you know, there's a lot of sensitivity studies that are being done now to make sure that as we're putting on these 728 00:55:48,310 --> 00:55:58,630 resources we can zero in on. Not only are we going to be reliable during the peak times, but are we reliable during some of those scenarios one in ten years that are 729 00:55:58,630 --> 00:56:03,810 happening every year or those other unique scenarios when you know we have 730 00:56:03,810 --> 00:56:09,130 fires and and lot of clouds or like today we had that eclipse that you know 731 00:56:09,130 --> 00:56:12,790 yesterday that affected some of the resources for that little period but we're 732 00:56:12,790 --> 00:56:17,870 just trying to make sure that that when we're ready to do it that we've kind of 733 00:56:17,870 --> 00:56:24,720 met all all our own criteria. Well that's exciting project thank you. That's it. 734 00:56:24,720 --> 00:56:26,660 With that I'll turn it over to James. 735 00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:29,080 I'll ask one more question. 736 00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,840 This might be more Paul might get this. 737 00:56:33,540 --> 00:56:36,160 Have we been thinking about the RA market 738 00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:40,760 and how those sort of spiraling upward costs 739 00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,340 change our perspective on how we view 740 00:56:43,340 --> 00:56:45,160 the long-term energy storage. 741 00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:48,960 Can we use some of this to cover our RA requirements as well? 742 00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:51,280 Yes, I'll go ahead and answer that one. 743 00:56:51,420 --> 00:56:52,800 I think we are actually looking at it. 744 00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:58,660 In fact, we are looking at how can we accelerate at the grid side, but also accelerating on the customer side. 745 00:56:58,940 --> 00:57:04,060 That's why I know Laura's team is working on what incentive do we need to increase the adoption of batteries. 746 00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:07,820 Right now we know we offer $2,500 to put in the power wall. 747 00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:14,120 So we're looking at maybe doubling that in terms to increase the number of residential type. 748 00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:18,120 Because those takes a while to do, whereas residential is actually much faster. 749 00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:22,020 that we cannot know, smaller units, so you need a lot of them, but they're actually 750 00:57:22,020 --> 00:57:23,100 easier to implement. 751 00:57:23,540 --> 00:57:26,880 And then once you have the incentive, and you have the workforce line up to actually 752 00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:27,240 do that. 753 00:57:27,340 --> 00:57:30,260 So that is part of our strategy because of the fact that R.A. 754 00:57:30,340 --> 00:57:32,280 Price's is kind of going through the roof in California. 755 00:57:38,780 --> 00:57:42,760 And that's a perfect lead-in because the next topic that we get to talk about is 756 00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,540 the customer-sided battery energy storage. 757 00:57:47,660 --> 00:57:51,340 I normally present really kind of focused on the grand side of the conversation. 758 00:57:51,340 --> 00:57:56,840 And so this is giving me a little bit of an opportunity to talk more on the program side and thinking about it from the battery side. 759 00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:14,580 I just want to open with saying kind of how exciting it is to see, we spend a lot of time as we're developing grants, painting that picture and kind of talking about how these technologies come together and to see this conversation build out in the way that it has tonight is really exciting for the work that we do day in and day out. 760 00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:20,260 seeing conversations around how California is thinking about 100-hour batteries and 761 00:58:20,260 --> 00:58:23,520 leading that down into how we're thinking about long-duration energy storage and 762 00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:25,400 the work that we're actively doing at SMUD today. 763 00:58:26,180 --> 00:58:30,680 And then there's 75 megawatts at the McClellan battery and the duration there. 764 00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:37,000 And then to be able to back that all the way down into the customer-sided battery energy storage side of the conversation and 765 00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:41,680 those batteries that are in individual homes or part of multi-family dwelling complexes. 766 00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:51,680 really paints a complete picture and it's the type of story that we try and build out when we apply for grants and that really make us competitive in that space because it's not just 767 00:58:52,180 --> 00:59:11,200 we're putting this idea on the horizon and we're talking about well if we had all this funding we could potentially do this or if all the stars align we could do these things but we're really there we're taking those steps and that's one of the reasons why it's such an exciting opportunity to be working on these things here because it's driving forward. 768 00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:15,860 One of the advantages that we have when we talk about customer-cited battery energy storage, 769 00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:20,480 and I'll jump into the actual slides in just a moment here, but one of the opportunities 770 00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:27,520 that we have is that these systems aren't looking at CEQA and long lead times and complex 771 00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:30,200 land considerations and procurements. 772 00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:32,560 We're talking about installing batteries in built space. 773 00:59:33,140 --> 00:59:37,120 We're talking about installing batteries as part of the built environment and into people's 774 00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:37,300 homes. 775 00:59:37,300 --> 00:59:52,440 And so we have a much faster timeline in terms of being able to activate these types of resources into the market and so when we talk about kind of a near-term RA need and the ability to help address some of those those market conditions that we see that are problems right now. 776 00:59:52,620 --> 00:59:59,800 A big part of that conversation is what are the technologies that can be accelerated in the fastest way possible to help address that concern. 777 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:28,280 To help bring that value forward. And then in doing so, be part of that larger tapestry that's the story that we're trying to tell from a grants perspective. And so that's a little bit of what I want to talk about tonight is kind of where we are on battery storage adoption in the territory. And then look a little bit at that in the context of the zero carbon plan, and the things that we're looking at in terms of pathways to actually accelerate battery energy storage on the residential and behind the meter side, and finally how that ties into our larger grant initiatives. 778 01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:34,440 So, to just kind of give that high level understanding of where we're at with batteries today. 779 01:00:34,980 --> 01:00:40,160 Right now, in territory, we have just over 1600 customers that have adopted batteries. 780 01:00:40,700 --> 01:00:44,680 That accounts for over 2,100, almost 2,200 individual batteries. 781 01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:47,920 Most customers have single battery systems in their household. 782 01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:52,880 A number of the solar and storage installers recently have shifted their standard installation 783 01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,860 from single battery to multiple batteries in the household. 784 01:00:55,860 --> 01:01:04,820 So we do see that the systems that are installed very recently, in the last year, tend to be more of a two-battery installation. 785 01:01:05,500 --> 01:01:08,600 So think two Tesla Powerwalls instead of one Tesla Powerwall. 786 01:01:09,180 --> 01:01:22,020 And a lot of that is driven by the OEM that kind of stepped in and said this is the standard configuration when we're thinking about balancing absorbing excess PV generation but also having adequate power for resiliency and backup power for the customers. 787 01:01:22,020 --> 01:01:26,320 standards. Also understanding that it drives a pretty considerable cost premium buying 788 01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:32,300 two batteries instead of one. But those 2,100 batteries, 2,200 batteries represent over 789 01:01:32,300 --> 01:01:37,580 10 megawatts of storage capacity that's contributing to the grid. A majority of that contribution 790 01:01:37,580 --> 01:01:42,880 today is really based on our time-of-day rates, customers absorbing excess PV generation, charging 791 01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:49,340 during our off-peak time periods, and then discharging to help reduce their on-peak energy. 792 01:01:50,420 --> 01:01:54,640 I do want to call out kind of staying with the top table here that when we look at the 793 01:01:54,640 --> 01:02:01,500 installations that we have today, Tesla does continue to be the overwhelming kind of 794 01:02:01,500 --> 01:02:08,180 majority shareholder of those installations, sitting right at about 58, almost 60% of 795 01:02:08,180 --> 01:02:13,660 the total installations are Tesla, and then the balance of the 40% is a combination of 796 01:02:13,660 --> 01:02:15,220 different OEMs. 797 01:02:16,460 --> 01:02:21,240 And so with that, zooming into the bottom table here, just to give everyone a little bit 798 01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:25,600 of context on how many of those customers are on our solar and storage rate versus how 799 01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:31,700 many of them are on the NIM rate, we're looking at roughly 1,640 customers total of which 800 01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:39,500 642 are on our solar plus storage rate and 998, just about 1,000 are on the NIM rate. 801 01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:45,360 That becomes important later on when we talk about programs, because when we're looking at getting 802 01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:50,640 customers to enroll in programs, it requires them to think about how that program might impact 803 01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:56,180 their net energy metering rate, and it becomes a more difficult conversation, 804 01:02:56,420 --> 01:03:00,020 more complex for the customers as they're thinking about these things. 805 01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:05,200 What does that look like in terms of who's grandfathered in the older rate, right? 806 01:03:07,180 --> 01:03:08,140 Is that the same thing, right? 807 01:03:08,140 --> 01:03:12,700 Yes, that's the story stories, but ever it is, is that our grandfather rate? 808 01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:13,940 Yes, yes, yes. 809 01:03:14,100 --> 01:03:15,920 So, NEM is, or the NEM? 810 01:03:17,580 --> 01:03:22,840 Scott Martin, CFO, yeah, the NEM up there is the grandfathered one. 811 01:03:23,340 --> 01:03:33,840 The NEM, other, is the grandfathered and the S and SR is the new rate that was adopt a couple of years ago. 812 01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:34,720 And 813 01:03:39,940 --> 01:03:40,980 so when we look at that and 814 01:03:40,980 --> 01:03:45,460 emrate a majority of those installations have been done over a considerable period of time, 815 01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:54,920 several of them driven by the ESCHIP program provided by the state is where the early adopters really started to step in from a battery energy storage standpoint. 816 01:03:55,620 --> 01:03:58,700 And then the solar and storage rate installations are the more recent installations. 817 01:04:02,230 --> 01:04:05,930 So when we think about that in the context of the zero carbon plan, 818 01:04:05,930 --> 01:04:15,670 First and top of list is the My Energy Optimizer Partner Plus Program, which is our virtual power plant program that we use to deliver the current battery incentive. 819 01:04:16,310 --> 01:04:23,910 That battery incentive is $2,500 today as an upfront incentive to support customers in installing battery energy storage systems. 820 01:04:24,530 --> 01:04:30,970 It also has a recurring benefit for customers participating in the program that's on the order of about $300 per year. 821 01:04:30,970 --> 01:04:36,990 So, $2,500 upfront, $300 per year, in addition to the retail savings that they receive on their bill. 822 01:04:37,570 --> 01:04:41,410 For when they do reduce their energy consumption during the on peak period. 823 01:04:41,630 --> 01:04:46,350 And also when they're absorbing excess PV generation and preventing that from exporting to the grid, but 824 01:04:46,350 --> 01:04:49,490 rather making best use of their generation. 825 01:04:51,050 --> 01:04:56,230 When we're looking at kind of where we expected to be in terms of the zero carbon plan and 826 01:04:56,230 --> 01:05:00,950 looking back at battery energy storage, we were looking at about 4,000 827 01:05:00,950 --> 01:05:05,910 and batteries by 2024. When we think about the slide that we were just on, we're sitting 828 01:05:05,910 --> 01:05:12,330 at about 2200 batteries halfway through 2024 or the first third of the way through 2024. 829 01:05:13,190 --> 01:05:17,830 So we're behind schedule on where that original battery forecast put us when we put together the 830 01:05:17,830 --> 01:05:24,870 zero carbon plan. A large part of that is that we've not seen battery storage decline in price 831 01:05:24,870 --> 01:05:28,090 the way that we had early on anticipated. 832 01:05:29,130 --> 01:05:33,570 We've seen cost reductions regularly on the automotive and electric vehicle side. 833 01:05:33,770 --> 01:05:38,290 If we look at Tesla vehicles, if we look at Ford vehicles, that tends to be a pretty 834 01:05:38,290 --> 01:05:42,950 consistent byline, and we've not seen those same cost reductions on the stationary energy 835 01:05:42,950 --> 01:05:49,030 storage side, which is unfortunate, but it's still the market conditions that customers and 836 01:05:49,030 --> 01:05:53,570 SMUD has to look at in terms of procuring these batteries and enabling these batteries to provide 837 01:05:53,570 --> 01:05:56,490 the grid services that we need to really achieve zero carbon. 838 01:05:57,270 --> 01:06:01,230 And so it's something that we need to be thoughtful of in terms of are there things that we can 839 01:06:01,230 --> 01:06:04,430 do to help address that kind of primary barrier. 840 01:06:05,050 --> 01:06:10,030 Also in that same timeline that we've not seen those battery prices decline, we've also seen 841 01:06:10,030 --> 01:06:15,130 higher interest rates and financing terms become more difficult to obtain, especially for 842 01:06:15,130 --> 01:06:19,510 customers that may not be optimal credit applicants. 843 01:06:20,270 --> 01:06:31,170 And so, when we're thinking about the overall impact of that, it means that there's a much smaller market of approachable adopters for solar plus storage, and the cost has not moved along with what they would have expected. 844 01:06:31,790 --> 01:06:39,230 And so for us, as we're thinking about the batteries that we need, it raises the question of what are things that we can do to help break those barriers down and accelerate this market. 845 01:06:39,910 --> 01:06:43,530 We look at that in terms of grants and the opportunities that that brings us forward. 846 01:06:43,970 --> 01:06:49,310 But as we know with grants, a huge amount of that opportunity comes with a, can we prove that we mean it first? 847 01:06:49,650 --> 01:06:57,410 Can we show that we're doing this today and use the grant to amplify that effort rather than using the grant to be the sole reason that we're able to actually deliver on that opportunity? 848 01:06:58,310 --> 01:07:05,450 And then the bottom item here is we're thinking about the zero carbon plan is really participation in our virtual power plant program. 849 01:07:05,450 --> 01:07:09,170 which does require the customer being enrolled in the solar and storage rate. 850 01:07:09,770 --> 01:07:15,450 Today, we have about 12,000 customers that are enrolled in the solar plus storage rate. 851 01:07:15,590 --> 01:07:20,370 So that's 12,000 customers that have installed solar since we switch over to that rate. 852 01:07:20,890 --> 01:07:23,990 So we do see reasonable adoption on the solar side there. 853 01:07:24,450 --> 01:07:27,630 But when we put that side by side with the battery adoption that we see, 854 01:07:28,090 --> 01:07:33,290 we're back to that 600 customers, 700 customers that are sitting on the solar and 855 01:07:33,290 --> 01:07:39,350 storage rate with batteries. That's only about a 5% attachment rate. And so there's a significant 856 01:07:39,350 --> 01:07:45,490 opportunity to both work with new customers that are adding solar today, six months from 857 01:07:45,490 --> 01:07:50,890 now, a year from now, and ensure that they have that opportunity to effectively bring battery 858 01:07:50,890 --> 01:07:55,590 energy storage into that dialogue and that we're moving that forward. But also, these 12,000 859 01:07:55,590 --> 01:08:02,950 customers, or 11,400 as it were, that they become a very real opportunity to get adoption 860 01:08:02,950 --> 01:08:07,990 of battery energy storage very quickly to utilize our highly developed solar and storage 861 01:08:07,990 --> 01:08:13,130 installation networks here in Sacramento to get those systems deployed, but then by doing 862 01:08:13,130 --> 01:08:19,550 that quickly to bring that value forward that we can address RA requirements and needs in 863 01:08:19,550 --> 01:08:20,590 a very near-term basis. 864 01:08:21,110 --> 01:08:26,510 I mean, we know from the years we spent on the solar array, I mean, the value is unlocked by 865 01:08:26,510 --> 01:08:27,630 having people out of battery. 866 01:08:27,630 --> 01:08:33,290 It's definitely surprising to have only seen if I signed up take even after a couple of years. 867 01:08:33,430 --> 01:08:37,810 It is a lot of money, but it's still a good 10% rate of return. 868 01:08:39,470 --> 01:08:43,510 And so the immediate question is exactly in line with that is, is what can we do? 869 01:08:43,670 --> 01:08:44,270 How can we help? 870 01:08:44,390 --> 01:08:45,830 How can we be part of the solution? 871 01:08:45,990 --> 01:08:50,830 And how can we take that step and then use that step to build the foundation for 872 01:08:50,830 --> 01:08:52,790 the bigger things that we're trying to do? 873 01:08:53,650 --> 01:08:57,070 So, I want to talk through some of the pathways and conversations that we're having. 874 01:08:57,530 --> 01:08:59,250 These aren't finalized. 875 01:08:59,350 --> 01:09:01,790 This is the absolute end all information here. 876 01:09:01,870 --> 01:09:04,130 This is part of active work. 877 01:09:04,810 --> 01:09:09,010 But I want to talk about the pathways that we're looking at to really help accelerate this 878 01:09:09,010 --> 01:09:13,690 market forward rather than just setting idly and waiting for the market to kind of evolve 879 01:09:13,690 --> 01:09:16,010 on its own and go where it's going to go without our guidance. 880 01:09:16,250 --> 01:09:17,550 We want to be part of that solution. 881 01:09:17,550 --> 01:09:25,430 And so when we talk about that, it really comes down to thinking about what are the barriers that are driving those higher costs. 882 01:09:25,630 --> 01:09:27,030 What does that conversation look like? 883 01:09:27,630 --> 01:09:30,410 Supply chain is very top of list for that. 884 01:09:30,570 --> 01:09:35,230 It can be a significant challenge when we're talking with local solar and storage installers. 885 01:09:35,350 --> 01:09:43,070 Oftentimes they're talking about making a sale, using the capital that they have in the business to buy one or two batteries at a time, 886 01:09:43,070 --> 01:09:46,370 and installing those batteries, turning around and repeating it. 887 01:09:46,510 --> 01:09:49,670 And it's a very low volume, very onesy-to-z conversation. 888 01:09:50,090 --> 01:09:53,410 They're not just competing with all this solar and storage installers here in Sacramento. 889 01:09:53,470 --> 01:09:57,990 They're competing with storage installers across the entire country for a finite amount of volume. 890 01:09:58,270 --> 01:10:03,290 And when you're picking up the phone and calling a vendor that has some reasonable amount of demand, and you're saying, I'd like to buy two. 891 01:10:04,290 --> 01:10:08,270 The conversation is very difficult to have and you often end up paying a pretty high premium. 892 01:10:08,830 --> 01:10:12,050 And that conversation becomes really interesting from a smud perspective. 893 01:10:12,050 --> 01:10:15,510 because when we look at our forecasts, we're not interested in buying two batteries. 894 01:10:16,290 --> 01:10:20,390 We know that as a region, as a community, we need thousands of batteries. 895 01:10:20,730 --> 01:10:25,250 We know that in the grip 2024 application that we talked about a couple of weeks ago, 896 01:10:25,450 --> 01:10:30,130 that included in that application is consideration for 10,000 behind the meter batteries. 897 01:10:30,750 --> 01:10:41,930 And so we're talking about volumes that are potentially much, much larger than those one, two conversations that are local installers that are having to struggle through to get access to that product and to bring that lower pricing to our communities. 898 01:10:42,630 --> 01:10:49,650 And so what we want to do is we want to engage with those OEMs, engage with Tesla, and we want to talk about that bulk procurement. 899 01:10:49,930 --> 01:11:02,370 We want to work through and get that pricing on behalf of our community, on behalf of our local solar and storage installers, so that we can say, we need 1,000 this year, we need 1,000 next year, we have a grant that's going to provide 10,000. 900 01:11:02,370 --> 01:11:08,390 And we need pricing that reflects that volume, not the onesy-twozy volume when individual contractors call about their installations. 901 01:11:09,090 --> 01:11:15,390 And we also need to make sure that the contractors and the installers that are local to our community are at the top of that priority list. 902 01:11:15,510 --> 01:11:17,910 So that when batteries ship, they ship here first. 903 01:11:18,270 --> 01:11:22,850 Because we're going to use those batteries to show how virtual power plants can deliver our capacity, 904 01:11:23,090 --> 01:11:27,190 can be part of an energy portfolio that includes distribution-sided systems, 905 01:11:27,190 --> 01:11:33,390 long-duration systems and utility scale systems at the transmission level to actually deliver on a zero-carbon grid. 906 01:11:33,730 --> 01:11:39,130 And it starts with these small individual elements, but asking for one at a time doesn't get us to where we need to be. 907 01:11:39,530 --> 01:11:40,510 And so that's a key element. 908 01:11:41,110 --> 01:11:42,890 Additionally, we have to address the cost. 909 01:11:43,370 --> 01:11:51,850 We have to look at unlocking that incentive, providing a more lucrative incentive that's going to really bring that cost down to a point where we don't see a 5% attachment rate. 910 01:11:51,850 --> 01:12:01,770 where we see a much, much higher number than that, so that we can really see battery adoption that is mirroring that potential 12,000 solar plus storage solar customers that we have on that rate today. 911 01:12:02,310 --> 01:12:06,350 5% is a number that can absolutely be improved upon in terms of attachment. 912 01:12:07,870 --> 01:12:17,050 Question, especially since we have our friend's ear from the Energy Commission, so the state allows local governments and other entities to buy off state contracts. 913 01:12:17,050 --> 01:12:23,910 facts. What if we get the state to do bulk purchase of residential batteries, and then 914 01:12:23,910 --> 01:12:31,090 not just smud, but any utility could buy them from the state or by off the same contract 915 01:12:31,090 --> 01:12:36,590 with the same low rates? Because this is a statewide problem of resilience and especially 916 01:12:36,590 --> 01:12:40,790 in the rural areas and the mountainous areas. If people don't have batteries, I know people 917 01:12:40,790 --> 01:12:43,950 that are getting propane tanks that are total environmentalists because they're desperate 918 01:12:43,950 --> 01:12:48,150 to have resilience because there have been so many power shutoffs. 919 01:12:49,950 --> 01:12:51,110 Anyway, that's just a thought. 920 01:12:51,650 --> 01:12:56,710 I mean, I love that we're doing this, but I think about the whole state and that maybe the state could do it. 921 01:12:56,770 --> 01:13:01,490 I know the state jumped right in on PPE purchases for other states even. 922 01:13:02,250 --> 01:13:03,090 So, just a thought. 923 01:13:04,390 --> 01:13:11,750 Well, we do have programs for substantial funding for decarbonization, which this fits into. 924 01:13:12,290 --> 01:13:17,970 Thank you. So if it's in the decarbonization, we have reliability requirements for trying to do so. 925 01:13:18,230 --> 01:13:26,990 It does fit. It's just not by division, but there's, you know, there's an efficient division and reliability division that are working these issues in this part of the standards. 926 01:13:26,990 --> 01:13:33,850 So I've worked with the standards division on storage and things like that so we are addressing it 927 01:13:33,850 --> 01:13:39,870 I'm not sure if the same pay but it is a recognized problem and they are trying to one of the challenges on the VPP 928 01:13:39,870 --> 01:13:47,690 that we've running to is the public law requires you can't wheel energy over a different line 929 01:13:47,690 --> 01:13:53,450 unless you're a utility so it really limits the third party VPP picture if it's not 930 01:13:59,840 --> 01:14:12,160 That's a really interesting thought, because we've done it with the school buses at CARB, and the DGS has gone and done these large steel contracts that everybody can take a part of as well. 931 01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:21,340 Yeah, I think it is worth asking about, and it's also, I mean, people like me that have solar, we want it batteries, but we just can't afford them. 932 01:14:21,340 --> 01:14:25,440 Even with our iron son, if it's just not, does it make sense? 933 01:14:25,660 --> 01:14:29,320 And it's frustrating that my car has a battery that's four times more powerful, 934 01:14:29,540 --> 01:14:31,900 and I can't access it, and it's sitting in the same garage. 935 01:14:32,540 --> 01:14:35,460 And then at the end of life, we have to think about battery walls, 936 01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:38,520 which are super hazardous waste, literally on the wall of a garage. 937 01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:40,680 What is going to happen at that end of life? 938 01:14:40,860 --> 01:14:44,240 If we're going to install it and encourage it, like we did with solar, 939 01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:46,680 we're having the same problem with solar at the end of life. 940 01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:48,440 Everybody's screaming, it's hazardous waste. 941 01:14:48,660 --> 01:14:49,660 What am I supposed to do with it? 942 01:14:49,700 --> 01:14:50,780 Where am I supposed to bring it? 943 01:14:50,780 --> 01:14:54,780 And it's a giant fight right now in the state of the waste management. 944 01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:59,560 So hopefully we think about the whole solution when we start pushing these things out too. 945 01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:29,480 And hopefully Tesla, we can negotiate with them about taking them all back and making them into new batteries. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. That calls to mind one of my favorite comparisons to the automotive industry from the stationary side, is that you can go and buy a Ford Lightning for now, I think $72,000, and it has the equivalent of 10 Tesla Powerwall batteries worth of energy storage in that same vehicle. And those 10 Tesla Powerwalls installed or 10 batteries, not necessarily Tesla, 946 01:15:29,480 --> 01:15:31,200 but just 10 batteries installed. 947 01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:35,760 They're going to cost you $120,000 to get them installed. 948 01:15:36,460 --> 01:15:39,660 And for $72,000, you can have the same battery 949 01:15:39,660 --> 01:15:40,960 and you get the truck for free. 950 01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:43,720 So it's an interesting conversation. 951 01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:47,220 And there's room to have this negotiation 952 01:15:47,220 --> 01:15:49,520 to bring this cost down, to bring this value forward. 953 01:15:49,840 --> 01:15:51,200 And there's room to think about the role 954 01:15:51,200 --> 01:15:53,340 of electric vehicles in that long-term solution 955 01:15:53,340 --> 01:15:54,740 and how these things all play together. 956 01:15:56,460 --> 01:15:58,660 Again, part of that very exciting tapestry 957 01:15:58,660 --> 01:16:04,980 that bringing everything together and us being able to actually show that the industry, the 958 01:16:04,980 --> 01:16:10,540 world, how it can work is why we are top of list for these opportunities. 959 01:16:13,750 --> 01:16:18,150 Last item on the list here is really looking at the efficiency of these installations. 960 01:16:18,470 --> 01:16:23,210 Another challenge is that there are local solar and storage installers that are very good that 961 01:16:23,210 --> 01:16:24,350 have been doing this for a long time. 962 01:16:24,570 --> 01:16:29,050 There are others that are trying to make the transition from HVAC service into this industry 963 01:16:29,050 --> 01:16:32,430 We are starting brand new businesses in this industry because of the emerging opportunity. 964 01:16:33,030 --> 01:16:37,790 And understanding the processes and the applications and 965 01:16:37,790 --> 01:16:43,850 what the material looks like and understanding what a fast application is going to look like versus one that's going to get sent back two or three times. 966 01:16:44,610 --> 01:16:48,590 That's customer satisfaction, it's cost for that installer. 967 01:16:49,450 --> 01:16:56,230 And it's how long it takes us to bring this capacity online to actually provide the grid services that we're all collectively looking for. 968 01:16:56,230 --> 01:17:26,210 And so the other thing that we're looking to do is partnering with our local installer network to create those standardized processes and applications and documents so that there's not this business barrier to entry of those that know the right loopholes and boxes to check versus those that don't standardized streamlined easy to access fair and competitive is highly valuable in terms of making sure that we're getting the best price forward for both us on the capacity side and bringing the resources as grid resources but also customers in making this investment 969 01:17:26,210 --> 01:17:30,110 and getting the highest quality lowest cost solution 970 01:17:30,110 --> 01:17:30,950 into their garages. 971 01:17:34,730 --> 01:17:37,610 It's not just those residential batteries, though. 972 01:17:37,750 --> 01:17:39,170 It's not just the single family homes. 973 01:17:39,310 --> 01:17:41,650 It's not just the garages that we need to be thinking about 974 01:17:41,650 --> 01:17:43,750 in terms of accelerating battery energy storage. 975 01:17:44,310 --> 01:17:46,410 It's also thinking about the work that we're doing to bring 976 01:17:46,410 --> 01:17:49,750 batteries forward in multi-family programs 977 01:17:49,750 --> 01:17:51,210 and multi-family communities. 978 01:17:52,010 --> 01:17:54,510 And so one of the efforts that we have right now 979 01:17:54,510 --> 01:17:57,930 is working with sun and battery and Chesapeake Commons, 980 01:17:58,270 --> 01:18:01,610 a local multi-family dwelling here in Sacramento. 981 01:18:01,610 --> 01:18:03,270 They actually own four different facilities. 982 01:18:03,630 --> 01:18:05,390 Phase one is looking at one of these four, 983 01:18:05,670 --> 01:18:10,450 specifically the Chesapeake Commons site owned by Wasatch. 984 01:18:11,590 --> 01:18:13,730 It's a 100 battery installation, 985 01:18:13,910 --> 01:18:16,090 so 700 kilowatts, 2.1 megawatt hours, 986 01:18:16,930 --> 01:18:20,150 and this will be a aggregation of batteries 987 01:18:20,150 --> 01:18:23,330 all at one site that Smud will have full dispatch control 988 01:18:23,330 --> 01:18:29,570 over, and we'll be looking to both test the ability of these batteries to provide local 989 01:18:29,570 --> 01:18:35,530 services to those customers, provide grade level services like resource adequacy, but 990 01:18:35,530 --> 01:18:39,210 also because of the concentration of these battery systems, we'll be able to look at and 991 01:18:39,210 --> 01:18:43,190 study the ability of them to unload and support that local service transformer. 992 01:18:43,790 --> 01:18:47,590 So as we're thinking about things like transportation electrification and building electrification 993 01:18:47,590 --> 01:18:51,670 and growing load, also looking at how these different ERs and battery energy storage 994 01:18:51,670 --> 01:18:55,770 which can help mitigate that load growth so that we can use that same level of infrastructure 995 01:18:55,770 --> 01:19:02,430 to support that kind of energy portfolio of the dwellings as we move forward on this effort. 996 01:19:03,050 --> 01:19:06,310 So this gives us a first opportunity to do that testing and to build this out. 997 01:19:06,770 --> 01:19:11,250 As you recall from our grip application, a significant expansion of these multifamily dwellings, 998 01:19:11,290 --> 01:19:14,830 I think 2500 potentially of the 10,000 batteries was included in that. 999 01:19:15,390 --> 01:19:18,030 So this becomes a significant part of that story as well. 1000 01:19:18,030 --> 01:19:22,370 Well, we do have a very large number of multifamily dwellings across the community. 1001 01:19:23,370 --> 01:19:27,690 And so thinking about how we don't make this a program or an opportunity to work with 1002 01:19:27,690 --> 01:19:31,910 smud just for those that have garages or happen to be in a situation where they can 1003 01:19:31,910 --> 01:19:32,790 install these batteries. 1004 01:19:33,310 --> 01:19:38,370 But making sure that we have as broad and comprehensive of a solution as possible, because there will 1005 01:19:38,370 --> 01:19:41,990 be electrification challenges and infrastructure challenges at these sites as well. 1006 01:19:41,990 --> 01:19:46,770 And we want to have a broad portfolio of solutions to address that part of the tapestry. 1007 01:19:52,420 --> 01:19:56,840 So as we think about kind of those additional considerations in that forward looking strategy, 1008 01:19:57,360 --> 01:20:02,320 I kind of wove throughout the conversation, the fact that this early work, this acceleration 1009 01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:07,920 conversation, is really done in advance of when that grip opportunity under task area three 1010 01:20:08,720 --> 01:20:11,600 would come the fruition, those additional 10,000 batteries. 1011 01:20:11,860 --> 01:20:12,760 This is the foundation. 1012 01:20:12,760 --> 01:20:30,440 This is the groundwork that gives us the opportunity to not just win a grant and then eventually figure out how we're going to do it but to accelerate into that opportunity on the timeline that are zero carbon demands that are zero carbon plant demands and also that the more near term resource adequacy needs for California demand. 1013 01:20:30,440 --> 01:20:32,840 And so this is part of that narrative. 1014 01:20:33,100 --> 01:20:38,900 It includes those multifamily projects and it's in line with the different phases of 1015 01:20:38,900 --> 01:20:43,360 the germ's implementation and the ADMS implementation that Suresh describes to a question 1016 01:20:43,360 --> 01:20:48,220 earlier and thinking about how this is all part of the aggregated portfolio, not one-off solutions 1017 01:20:48,220 --> 01:20:49,140 and one-off programs. 1018 01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:53,880 It really is that comprehensive solution and that comprehensive portfolio to create the 1019 01:20:53,880 --> 01:20:54,840 value that we're looking for. 1020 01:20:56,760 --> 01:20:57,220 Sorry. 1021 01:20:59,970 --> 01:21:00,570 Questions? 1022 01:21:00,570 --> 01:21:00,990 So 1023 01:21:06,240 --> 01:21:09,320 far away, definitely too much. 1024 01:21:10,580 --> 01:21:17,200 We've had, it's been a while actually since I've had a constituent feedback, but I've 1025 01:21:17,200 --> 01:21:21,560 had several in the past with really high panel upgrade costs. 1026 01:21:22,220 --> 01:21:28,540 And so how do we, have we put much thought into the A, the interconnection process that 1027 01:21:28,540 --> 01:21:32,060 would be the panel costs and doing it sent panel costs when we're talking about trying to get 1028 01:21:32,060 --> 01:21:38,340 That is the onsite, the household level of battery storage installed, and multifamily from that matter. 1029 01:21:41,080 --> 01:22:00,120 So a big challenge with some of the panel upgrades is that there's a wave of emerging technologies, smart panels, and automated controls that are at the front end of code and certification and compliance testing where they're not kind of that generally readily available technology. 1030 01:22:00,120 --> 01:22:05,760 There's a number of pilots going on across the state, and we're also actively monitoring that technology. 1031 01:22:06,160 --> 01:22:10,000 That represents an area of research that could significantly address that. 1032 01:22:10,660 --> 01:22:20,560 On our side, as we're looking at it, we also think about it in terms of making sure that we're making best use of the available panel space to enable electrification. 1033 01:22:21,380 --> 01:22:30,100 Part of the education campaign around calls mud first with respect to electric vehicle charging, for example, is making sure that when somebody's thinking about installing a home. 1034 01:22:30,100 --> 01:22:57,520 that they actually understand the needs that they have for that EVSE that they're putting in their garage and that we're not taking up all the panel bandwidth to install a 19 kilowatt EVSE in a garage or upgrading to install even a 7 kilowatt EVSE in a garage if that customer maybe only needs three and by making that decision to have a 3 kilowatt EVSE, you leave room to think about what your water heater upgrade is going to look like and what your stove top upgrade is going to look like to induction when you're ready. 1035 01:22:57,520 --> 01:23:04,760 And so it's not a kind of silver bullet type solution, because you get into very specific customer circumstance. 1036 01:23:05,660 --> 01:23:14,980 But it starts with those education initiatives, and we book in with the future technology that can help alleviate this more aggressively. 1037 01:23:15,680 --> 01:23:27,500 As we're looking at battery specifically as being part of that solution, one of the things that we do here that SMUD was able to uniquely do first is work with Tesla to utilize their meter calls. 1038 01:23:27,500 --> 01:23:34,420 to actually install at the point of the utility meter which allows them to more easily provide 1039 01:23:34,420 --> 01:23:39,800 whole home backup. That allows that battery to interact with that whole home load more 1040 01:23:39,800 --> 01:23:45,120 actively and has the potential to look at some of those opportunities to mitigate those costs 1041 01:23:45,120 --> 01:23:50,340 in the future. So it's a huge cost opportunity for a conversation and one that we're very actively 1042 01:23:50,340 --> 01:23:54,580 looking at both in a education and program standpoint but also very heavily on a research side. 1043 01:24:00,580 --> 01:24:04,820 So, what kind of timeline are we looking at here because I know we've got a lot of 1044 01:24:05,540 --> 01:24:10,140 solar installers who have also told us they've seen a big drop in and solar installs 1045 01:24:10,140 --> 01:24:15,700 and they if they can be repositioned to help install batteries that could be a way to keep 1046 01:24:15,700 --> 01:24:19,020 that workforce strong and the jobs here locally strong. 1047 01:24:20,140 --> 01:24:24,300 What kind of timeline are we on for the whole project? 1048 01:24:24,300 --> 01:24:37,220 So we are having these conversations with the OEMs and the manufacturers right now to understand what we can get in terms of optimal pricing and what that bulk conversation would look like. 1049 01:24:38,260 --> 01:24:46,320 And in parallel with that, we are also having interviews with some of our local solar and storage installers, so some of the ones that have the highest participation in our programs. 1050 01:24:46,320 --> 01:24:54,440 And also some that haven't been able to participate in our program to understand the barriers that we can most aggressively address and knock down. 1051 01:24:54,840 --> 01:25:00,200 By prioritizing the things that we're able to have the most control over, we're able to get this done as quickly as possible. 1052 01:25:00,820 --> 01:25:11,480 And so without kind of giving an absolute this date type of answer, we're talking like months like this summer, not end of this year type of conversation. 1053 01:25:12,100 --> 01:25:14,440 Oh, that's wonderful. Great to hear. 1054 01:25:14,780 --> 01:25:16,420 And now everyone has heard me say that. 1055 01:25:16,880 --> 01:25:19,040 Yeah, I said it publicly. You were recorded. 1056 01:25:21,660 --> 01:25:23,100 My team will let me know. 1057 01:25:25,340 --> 01:25:28,200 At the risk of irritating those same providers 1058 01:25:28,200 --> 01:25:30,420 and small business folks that we're trying to save. 1059 01:25:31,480 --> 01:25:34,500 Are we looking at, you sort of got into this a little bit 1060 01:25:34,500 --> 01:25:35,800 when we talked about the multi-family. 1061 01:25:36,180 --> 01:25:38,140 But I mean, are we looking at putting storage 1062 01:25:38,140 --> 01:25:40,980 at some of our substations and providing community benefits 1063 01:25:40,980 --> 01:25:44,620 It's that way to essentially community, community storage? 1064 01:25:45,380 --> 01:25:45,780 Yes. 1065 01:25:46,680 --> 01:25:47,640 Yep, absolutely. 1066 01:25:50,510 --> 01:25:51,250 Any other questions? 1067 01:25:54,120 --> 01:25:54,560 Any other comments? 1068 01:25:55,540 --> 01:25:55,640 Okay. 1069 01:25:56,380 --> 01:25:57,200 Thank you so much. 1070 01:25:57,500 --> 01:25:58,480 Thank you. 1071 01:25:59,260 --> 01:26:00,920 Okay, have we received a new request to speak? 1072 01:26:02,930 --> 01:26:05,090 No, we don't have any requests to speak on this item. 1073 01:26:06,310 --> 01:26:07,870 Okay, and then anything off? 1074 01:26:10,280 --> 01:26:11,560 No, nothing not the agenda. 1075 01:26:11,840 --> 01:26:14,280 Okay, so we have not received any cards at this time. 1076 01:26:18,500 --> 01:26:23,700 If you have comments, you'd like to be included in the record, you can send them within 1077 01:26:23,700 --> 01:26:25,100 two hours at the end of the meeting. 1078 01:26:25,440 --> 01:26:27,220 I don't, was there any summary items? 1079 01:26:28,140 --> 01:26:29,040 I didn't have anything. 1080 01:26:29,400 --> 01:26:29,940 Did anybody have any? 1081 01:26:30,760 --> 01:26:31,060 Okay. 1082 01:26:31,780 --> 01:26:36,660 And then we will be moving to the closed session. 1083 01:26:38,660 --> 01:26:40,320 Any requests to speak on that? 1084 01:26:41,420 --> 01:26:45,340 Having completed the open session portion of the meeting, the board will now enter into closed 1085 01:26:45,340 --> 01:26:48,200 session with the following items, there will be no reportable action. 1086 01:26:49,100 --> 01:26:52,720 So the first is conference with our legal council on existing litigation. 1087 01:26:53,720 --> 01:26:57,500 There's no intersection, five, four, nine, five, six, point nine, D, one of the government 1088 01:26:57,500 --> 01:27:06,060 code, AMIR's versus MUD and Superior Court case, 34, 2022, zero, zero, three, one, three, four, 1089 01:27:06,140 --> 01:27:06,680 two, nine. 1090 01:27:07,940 --> 01:27:12,820 I think that's it for today, and we will move into the next one. 1091 01:27:13,180 --> 01:27:13,440 Thank you.