Guys ready. Alright. I'd like to call
to order this, uh, regular meeting over the upper providence board of supervisors
monday, september 15th, 2025. And, uh, if
everyone would rise as they're able and join me in the pledge of allegiance,
pledge allegiance to flag of the united states of america,
and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under god,
invisible with liberty and justice for all.
alright, we have an agenda and uh,
I need a motion to approve. I'll make a motion to
approve the september 15th, 2025 board of supervisors regular meeting
agenda. I'll second. Alright, I'm a motion to second. All those in
favor say aye. A aye. Anyone opposed? Thank you.
alright. And now we have a special presentation
and a recognition of our township solicitor for many years.
sure. I'll turn it over to tim deperman.
I don't think I get down here very much, but, um, joe, on behalf
of the staff and behalf of the board members, um, just wanted
to set the stage on, uh, going back to 2015 when I first
started shortly after you, um, uh, took over from ed cappel.
um, you've been, uh, a valuable solicitor. I've been in the profession
for 35 years, and you by far are the best solicitor I've
had. And one of the nice things, uh, that I, I would like to, well,
everybody knows that you're one of the best, uh, one of the best tributes
is your ability to protect us from ourselves and say things that we
don't always agree with. But, um, I want to, uh, thank you,
uh, for all your years of service. Thank you, tim. I appreciate it. Thank you.
just wanna say thank you. Always appreciate working with you and the advice you provided over the years.
uh, glad to have you, uh, as a resident during your tenure with the township, uh, and in the future.
and we'd love to have you in the planning commissioner zoning, hearing board . We, if the board will, we'll agree
to that in that capacity. But thank you very much .
we, we didn't say we're gonna punish him. Recognize joe. I want to thank you for
your, your years of service, faithful service, loyal service to this township.
I don't know, people maybe don't understand if you, if you don't, not from pennsylvania, but
so much responsibility is driven down to the local municipalities and the
role of municipal, uh, law. The practice of it is critical in
the state. Maybe we would grind to a halt without municipal attorneys and good ones to
represent us. So thank you so much, joe. Appreciate it. Appreciate it.
alright. My turn. Bill, I, I could say a lot about joe. I know joe, I knew joe
way before he was even a solicitor here. Um, our boys played, uh, sports
together at spring court, so I've known him for years before. So it was comforting when
I won supervisor that joe was here and I go to joe and be like, what do you
think as a resident? Take off your lawyer hat like on a sunday when I was calm and
not working my other job. So, always appreciated that. And not only
do planning commission, I think I signed up his wife kim, for something too. You're not getting out it
either. . Thank you, ma. Yeah, you're welcome.
we good joe. As a part of, as a part of course of all, you're not
going anywhere 'cause you're still resident, joe, and we already have you slate for planning commission.
so, um, it seems to be a theme. Um, helene and I put
our heads together trying to see what we, we would, um, like to give you, and we know that you're a traveler, even
kim are travelers. So we got together, it's called a travel book, and it's,
um, uh, authored from various people. I think every single country is in here. There's
some countries I don't think I'd want to visit , but, um,
this is for, for you. Thank you so much. Thank you.
fantastic. Thank you so much, brian. Thank you. Thank you everybody.
now you can leave. Well, you know, there's one thing I've never been able to say in 40 years of doing
this, but now I can say I won't be staying for the rest of the meeting. ,
thank you very much. I you shall I get a photo with you, everybody? Sure. Yeah.
thank you. Thank you. Thanks everybody. Enjoy.
now, uh, we're gonna have a presentation from our township manager on the
upcoming open space referendum, which will be on the ballot on november 4th. And,
uh, this is an informational session, so tim's gonna give a little presentation,
and then afterwards we're gonna have a short q and a please, informational
questions only. We just want to get out to the public what this is
and give you a chance to think about it before you cast your vote on november 4th.
thank you, mr. Chairman. Um, this, uh, presentation is,
uh, we we're trying to time this at the september meeting because, um, we know that
mail-in ballots are gonna be going out and we have a much more thorough
public information session that we're gonna do on october 15th.
purpose of tonight is to get this on the public record and, um,
um, relax the rules a little bit on public comment. Um, well and certainly
entertain any questions from the audience because there's a lot of, um, questions
that we've received on, you know, what is open, open space is a, a very,
uh, um, um, term that can mean many things. And so I want
to go over very briefly on some of the, um, common, uh,
things that we've, uh, some of the questions we received and wanted to
start out. Um, first, uh, just to, um, just say that this ballot initiative
is, um, uh, on november 4th, 2025. Um,
and it will be, uh, part of the, uh, general election
this year. So jeff, if you go through, uh, so the agenda tonight,
I'm going to try to keep it brief. Uh, we talk a little bit about the referendum purpose,
the, um, the engagement of natural lands. Uh, that's
the professional organization that we contracted with public,
uh, comment opportunities, talk a little bit about the tax impact on
residents if once the refer, if the referendum is approved, um, the
use of the tax funds, uh, the frequently asked questions, and then we'll have
some concluding remarks. So, um, first of all is,
uh, the referendum purpose. And the question is why now? Uh, a couple of main reasons
is to engage the community in decision making, pro processes,
uh, to promote transparency and accountability and govern and,
and governance, uh, to engage voters to elicit their feedback,
um, to help mitigate the strain on township infrastructure. And,
uh, to help bend the cost curve on the impacts of municipal and school district
services.
um, the, the upper providence township board enlisted the
natural lands organization for expertise on the
open, uh, open space ballot question. Natural lands is a
5 0 1 c3 nonprofit organization focusing on land
conservation in eastern pennsylvania and southern new jersey.
they manage, uh, 43 nature preserves, covering nearly 24,000
acres and hold about 494 conservation easements
on another 20 thou 28,000 acres. Uh, natural lands
also provides open space financing, acquisition services and updates
to the township's open space opportunities map. And that is viewable
on the township's, uh, website. We do have a slide later tonight.
um, how this new levy, uh, how
this new levy affects the average resident, uh, depends
on a combination of earned income tax and or their
home assessed valuation. Uh, natural lands recommended
and the board of supervisors adopted what we call a blended tax formula, uh,
which would raise the township's earned income tax from 1% to 1.06%,
and the real estate tax from 2.75 to 3.25
mills. This ensures both property owners and workers contribute
fairly to the open space tax
for perspective. And this is, uh, we, we tried to find
a very simple calculator, uh, to, for people to use, uh, because
everybody's property tax, uh, assessments on their homes differ.
but, uh, for, for a perspective, the the average assessed
home in upper providence is around $500,000. Um,
and to ca to calculate the open space tax, one would need to
apply the following calculator. You, you have $500,000 if
a proposed tax increase of 0.50 mills, um, not that's
been spelled in my o list calculation would be 500,000
divided by a thousand. Um, that gives you the millage number
times 0.50, and that would be an estimated tax increase of
annual tax increase of $250, $250. That's for a home
that has an assessed valuation of 500,000. As you know, some homes
are less than that, some homes are more than that. So if it, um, if
you want to know what, how it will impact you, you would need to use this tax calculator.
any questions we would encourage people to call the township, uh, offices. We'd be happy to
help you. The next one would be on the, um, earned income tax.
uh, calculate earned income tax, uh, calculator
for perspective, the average earned income in upper providence around 141,771.
to calculate the open space tax, one would need to apply the following calculator,
1 41 7 7 6 times 0.06
of 1%. That's a calculation of around $85,
uh, annually. Uh, for the eit,
um, how can the tax be used? Uh, um, is often thought
that an open space levee can only be used to buy land, but that is
incorrect. The natural lands trust and the township legal counsel
have ensured that the ballot question allows flexible use of the funds within
state law. Funds may be used for any of the following categories.
uh, land acquisition park and trail development, uh, habitat
restoration, maintenance and stewardship and planning administration.
I'm gonna go a little bit more detail on each of those items as far as land acquisition.
land acquisition refers to the acquiring land, or conservation is
easements from willing sellers to preserve natural areas, agricultural
lands, and woodlands. Local funding is frequently supplemented,
uh, with state and federal grants to, uh, maximize the amount of protected
open space per dollar expended
some of the frequently, uh, asked questions. Um, uh,
go on to the next one. Um,
parks and trail, uh, parks and trail development also refers to the planning of new parts,
um, extending trails and improving access to, to natural areas.
that's one of the areas. Habitat restoration,
um, refers to the restoring of wetlands streams and,
uh, crucial habitats. Um, planning administration,
did I skip under maintenance and stewardship. Maintenance and stewardship,
uh, refers to the long-term care and management of the
preserved lands, um, including invasive species control and trail upkeep.
up to 25% of the funds accumulated balance from
the referendum authorized tax may be used to develop
improved design engineer and maintain open space property.
talk a little bit about the planning and administration. This would cover the cost
associating with identifying priority preservation areas, uh, conducting
appraisals and managing the open space program.
um, I'm gonna move in now to some of the frequently asked questions that
we received. Uh, can the funds be used for, uh, road repairs
or other township expenses? The answer to that is no. State law
mandates that funds be used only for open space preservation
and related projects, uh, not for services like road maintenance police
or general administration. Another
question that we receive is, will the township seize private property with this money?
um, in other words, we found a nice piece of open space, but we don't have a willing
seller. Could we use eminent domain to purchase that? The answer to that
is no. All and acquisitions will be conducted with willing sellers.
uh, the township will not employ eminent domain to acquire properties for open
space. This program state law prohibits municipalities
from involuntarily condemning land for open space purposes.
another faq that we get is what kind of open space are we talking about?
this can include various, um, spaces such as farmland,
woodlands, wetlands, stream corridor, stream corridors,
uh, historical landscapes and areas for passive,
passive recreation such as walking trails, natural parks,
and community gardens. It also focuses on preserving ecological value
and providing community benefits. What will the funding
be used for
purchasing flood, uh, purchasing flood prone properties, uh,
with the help of federal funds, especially along the chuco river.
uh, it, it would, uh, prevent further flood damage, restore the floodplain
and increase rec, increase recreational access to the river,
uh, purchasing conservation easements, often referred
to as development rights or conservation easements on private
lands to, uh, prevent development on working farms, uh,
wildlife habitats and other ity of the natural recreation areas.
um, could be used for also the purchasing trail rights
away to link and or expand the townships publicly accessible trail
system. And finally, the purchasing open land
were appropriate for active, uh, recreation, such as, such
as . Another faq
is what will the project be selected? How will the project be
selected in a transparent and fair manner? Project selection
will adhere to the open space recreation
and environmental resources plan, and this would be, they would receive
it, uh, receiving approval from the board of supervisors
and the montgomery county, uh, plan, commission, and appointed committee
will evaluate, rank and recommend projects emphasizing lands
with ecological significance, links to preserved areas,
public accessibility, or those under development pressure.
um, and any case, if we find an, uh, a valid
piece of parcel parcel, the township must conduct a public hearing before acquiring
any property. Providing an opportunity for residents to present
their testimonies on acquisitions financed by the open space tax transparency
and public engagement are critical.
uh, can these open space funds be combined with other funding sources? Yes,
then that's a resounding yes. Open space tax funds can be combined
and are almost always combined with county, state, and federal
grants for the acquisition of development of new open spaces. Very
seldom do we not move forward with any type of project
without some grant, um, assistance. Um, many of
these grants, particularly from the pennsylvania's, uh, department of conservation
and natural resources, require matching funds where the grant covers
part of the cost and the municipality provides the remaining amount.
another question that we received is, why does the township need a special open space
tax when we already have money from developers for parks?
um, and, you know, the park impact fee that we've had for many years from developers
is a one time charge, um, on new residential subdivisions. Um,
as our township is now over 95% developed, uh, this fee will yield
minimum returns in future years. Uh, and open space techs
will provide a dedicated ongoing funding source to preserve remaining
undeveloped parcels and maintain our community's character,
uh, for future generations. Just to drill down, uh, on that for
a little bit, um, we currently have, um, putting our, putting
our finance director little bit on the spot. I think we have plus or minus about $2 million
in the parks and open space fund, give or take a few dollars. People
say that's a lot of money, but you've gotta keep this in context. Um,
can you move under the demand? You gotta keep this in context. This
is kind of the open space priorities map, um, by count,
and you can correct me, jeff, 'cause I asked you this earlier today, by count we have about
1,390 acres left of undeveloped property.
and when you apply that based on the assessed value with common level, with a common level
ratio, if we, if money was no object, and we could just write a check for
anything that, that estimated value is around a hundred, uh, probably 150 million,
$150.5 million is the assessed. It's
probably the value of a lot of that money. And that's based on that formula.
some property may be more valuable than that, but I think that's the number
that we want to keep in perspective. Um, and that is a, uh,
for a sea fee simple purchase. Um, another one, um, if you can move
on to the next slide. This is an area of all of our floodplains,
as you know. Uh, hurricane ida, um, opened all
of our eyes and some of the dangers to some of the structures down in our, down
in the floodplain. Brian, you can correct me on this statistic, but I think
of a hundred, 100 of the 103 s and
the floodplain are in montclair and poor providence. And this is a
attached is an arrow image showing the area in which the hundred, uh, properties
are located. Uh, again, if we apply the, the formula as far
as what those properties are valued, that comes to close to 38 to $40 million.
am I correct? So, so that's 38 million in addition to the 150 million
of valuation of open property that we have.
um, so when you think of $2 million, that's really, that $2 million is a
finite resource. What we're looking at is creating a, a small steady annual
income where we as if once properties become available or
we find some other willing sellers, we'll have some avenues to, um,
kind of react proactively to some of that. Um, one last,
uh, one other, uh, o uh, frequently asked question is, what will prevent the open space
revenue from being used for other purposes? And
mr. Solicitor, you can chime in on some of this, but I think pennsylvania act 1 53 mandates
that open space funds must be only used for preserving open spaces.
a portion of the funds can maintain properties bought with these funds
and the funds will be recorded in a separate audible open space account
in the township's financial records. That concludes
my faq. Um, there may be some others, but, um,
I also wanna tell everybody to save this date. It's october 15th.
that will be our next open space public information. You, this one will
be facilitated by our consultant, the natural land trust. I think we're gonna have
some speakers that meeting, um, to go into more depth
that will also be advertised. Tonight's purpose is just to try to set the
record straight on what, uh, funds can be used for and
try to answer some of the faqs that we've gotten. Cheryl, I think we
have, um, some, some handouts, that we put in the back. So
if the people would like to leave, they could welcome them to get a copy. And,
um, mr. Chairman, the last slide is, uh,
questions from the floor. That's questions from the supervisors or anybody from the
audience. I would like to ask questions. I'll ask the first question. ,
my understanding is the township would not be able to purchase property
in excess of the assessed value of that property, right. Appraised value.
am I right? Appraised value. Appraised value, correct.
exactly. We talked about this before. We wanted to fill in
anything that was missing. Is there anything missing? Any information you want?
um, I, I, I think that I would just add to kind of follow up on
what tim has been talking about is that, um, you know, if
you're seeing a lot of development going on in the township, one of the ways that you
can maybe get some more open space or keep some of those larger developments
from building up density is by purchasing conservation
easements or purchasing property. You can purchase property and then put an easement
on it and then sell the property for some of the purposes can be continue to be farmed
or, you know, it can be just a single family home, but maybe
preserve the other acreage. Um, so I, I think that that's, uh, an important
aspect of the proposal that that should
be remembered. And was it even as
development does happen that you could purchase some of the unit
with the money? Could you do that? Like say, okay, instead of 155
units, let's do whatever we would purchase that? Absolutely. If
you, if you have a, a, a willing seller, if you have a developer that has a project
and you say, look, we're willing to buy a conservation
easement on from you. We'll buy some good development rights off of the project and part,
you know, we, we'll buy x number of units and it will reduce the density and create
a, a park and an open space area next to the development that, um, you know,
the, the whole town should be.
the only other thing I'd like to see maybe at the october meeting is the actual
verbiage. It's gonna be on the ballot. What does that, unless we have it, I
actually have it. I don't have it on the screen, but I can,
and I'll just weigh that the verbiage that we have on the ballot is dictated by
statute. So the statute is very precise in how they say
you have to load the ballot initiative. You have to say, you know, do you favor the
imposition of increase in and then the type of tax, what the percentage
is gonna be. Um, and then for what purposes?
so the, the draft of the referendum as we have it in the
ordinance that the board adopted specifically is written so that
the purposes are as broad as is permitted under the law. So that if, if this were
to be adopted, it wouldn't be, um, he wouldn't really be hemmed
in, in terms of what you could do. So that's the way, the reason it's written, the way it's written
in, in legal, unfortunately. I'll let, uh, jeff is putting it up on the
screen from the,
if anyone else from the republic has a question, you can come forward to the, to the
lectern and uh, state your name and ask it. This is not in place of, we're
still gonna do regular public comment after this, so I'll be up twice. . There
you go. Hi, kristen troutman 1320 blackrock road.
um, my first question is, if this does pass
when people vote in november, is there gonna be verbiage in
the resolution or ordinance stating that monies
used to purchase open space means it will be open space in perpetuity
that the township can never sell it to, say, generate revenue for
something? Because I saw on the agenda tonight, number nine, I think
it is, is there's some township open space that's potentially gonna be
sold. So it's, I'm questioning if we're gonna be taxed to
pay for open space, will it stay open space forever
or will it, if the township comes upon hard times when developers are no longer
developing, um, will that then get sold
like parkhouse? So there are restrictions in,
in terms of how the township can dispose of any property that it requires and how
it goes about doing that as wade in into that fact. Um, you know,
an easement would be something if a development easement
would be something that a, you know, the township could only
dispose of if they went to court and convinced the, the orphans court that they could do
it and it would still serve the purpose that it was intended. So it would be very,
very difficult to ever convey. I I, I can't say that
in perpetuity forever. It would never be disposed of or
sold or anything. 'cause there are a lot of different variables that go into it. But if
that's the purpose that it's being bought for, that's the purpose. It needs to be useful. Okay. 'cause I know what
the county ag preservation program that's in perpetuity, so
I don't understand why the township couldn't also have something like that. So,
um, even the, even the ag program, there are ways to do
it with the agreement of the program. There are ways to do
it. It's just, it's it's not forever.
okay. My next question is, how many parcels of
open space does the township own? Does anybody know?
we own around 500 acres. I, I'm sorry, I don't know the exact number of parcels off the top of my head, but
it's around 500 acres. Okay. Because I want people to know that for every parcel
that gets acquired for open space, it comes off the tax rolls, which
then means that the school taxes go up because that's less property owners paying
into school tax. And when you show the tax for the open space,
$250 or $85, that's
just for open space. We all know our taxes go up every year for the school district
for emergency services, for everything. So, um,
I want people to know that if this does pass and they get their tax bill next year,
it's not just gonna be $250 more. 'cause everything does go
up. So thank you. Thank
you. Can I just add, if
we develop and more people move in, we could also have increase because people
are moving in and we need more emergency service and
we could have two or three more powerpoints. So both of those things could be,
you know, true. Right? Yeah, we could add more, uh, powerpoint
slides on the cost of services. But I'll, maybe I'll use the school district as an example.
for every residential unit, I think we have an average
multiplier of what, 2.5 and maybe off of this 2.5
students. And if, you know, the, uh, per pupil expenditure, uh, in,
in spring forward, I think is around nine or 10, nine or $10,000. I can
guarantee you that we don't one, the average, uh, residential unit does not
generate that amount of, uh, tax to cover,
um, to cover the cost of educating a child. So there
is a net loss, uh, when you have, when, when you do a residential
unit. That's why we try to, when we do planning, we try to have a nice, uh, diverse
base of commercial, industrial and industrial. So you kind
of factors and balances that. Thank you.
victoria schwartz, 2 48 baxter drive, phoenixville. Um,
I actually have kind of two questions, but to tag along on, um,
the, the taxes and the increases in taxes, you're saying that essentially
we can have a 250 and then on top of that 850, which equates to $350,
is that per household? Is that per person? What's it's based on the average,
uh, that those, you wanna go back to those, um, two calculators.
it's based on what the average assessed valuation is. You have to take your own
personal situation and apply it to the calculator to come up with your own tax
bill. 'cause everybody has their own assessment. Sure. Um, everybody, uh,
some people may not have a, uh, an earned income through a job in the
township. You may mm-hmm . You may have un income under unearned income
is not taxed. What about we're, we're trying to look at that. We're trying to,
the best way to explain this is looking at the average of what the average,
uh, assessment valuation for a home and the average income. So people make
more or less than that. Now, is that based on the new assessment meaning a, a newer assessment
or are we gonna have our homes reassessed or the existing assessments? Existing assessments. Okay.
so then second of all, what about people with fixed incomes or even single incomes
that maybe don't make 140? I know, I know that's kind of just a range based
upon income. So how does that equate to people? So for instance, myself,
um, so would I be looking at, you know, even if my existing, would
I be looking at, you know, an additional 350 on top of my existing taxes already,
just to kind of get an, depends what your earned income is and what your assessment. Okay.
so it is based upon earned income as well. You take that into consideration. 'cause right now the earned income
formula. That's correct. Okay. So 'cause right now it's 1% that were being taxed.
am I correct in that? Okay. So based upon that there's a lot of people
with fixed incomes. So I just guess, um, I guess my asking question
is, do we need to flush that out a little bit more? Have that, I mean, I know you guys tried to do a good job in,
in showcasing this. Um, if I could clarify that. I think fixed income,
if you, if you're implying social security, yes, people
retired social security, anybody on fixed income would not be, would not
be, uh, subjected to the it tax because that's not her account. Okay.
all right. So I just think that if we can flush that out a little bit more, especially on property taxes.
'cause as we know, everything does go up and, you know, um, sewers
gone up. Definitely school taxes have gone up and I used to be able
to, you know, I still can't afford my house for right now, but how much longer, you know, I'm, again, I'm
single. So, and I've worked really hard to own a home and not just myself, but there's a
lot of other people who are older who've worked really hard their whole entire lives and
their taxes are being taxed out. Um, so again, I I understand the
purpose of, of the tax. Um, it's just that it is concerning
in terms of that. And then also, um, trying to have, find the breakdown in what exactly
it could be used for. Um, the next question is, um, this is kind of like
why, why now? Why are we looking at this now? Why was this not looked at before? And
why did not we create a fund before, um, to actually have open
space, you know, five, 10 years ago? Why is it now?
I think that was one of the faqs that we addressed. Did I, do you wanna go back
to that? Forgive me if you could just kind of clarify that and I, again, I apologize for
asking a question that maybe already covered. I can't,
um, speak for prior boards. I mean, I mean, in a perfect world, should
we have had enough space tax 20? I mean, you can be the judge of that. I've only been here for
10 years. I'm not here to five. The
point is, I think there's a perception that you bring in a lot of money from developers
that those, those funds that we get are one time resources. Once
they're spent for done. Well then I guess here's my question then. If we anticipate that, maybe
this might be a tag on that question, why are developers not charged a little bit of a higher percent
anticipating? Because once they come in, they develop, they're making lots of money, millions
and millions and millions of dollars. And then also businesses. So
why are they not held a little bit more accountable to this pretty, help me here,
but I think the development the highest per, per home units.
but it's a, if you look at it, it might be like, is it one time fee or is it something that we could,
and again, I'm not, you know, I'm just trying to understand how all this works
and it's, it's ultimately, you know, we're, we're getting taxed continually, continually,
which is understandable. That's the way of life. Everything's taxed. Um, so what's
to say once they come in, they make their money, they go out. Yes, they pay heavy fee. But
it almost seems like every time a new development's built, everything goes up.
and again, the taxes shared amongst the, amongst the rest of
us, obviously school taxes and so forth. I mean, people are literally starting to get tax out of their
homes, especially if retired. Um, that's a concern moving forward.
not that we don't have some great ideas about trying to, you know, figure out a way
that we have to live as a community and work as a community and grow as a community. But
I think that's a big concern. People are looking to have to sell their homes now because every
time taxes go up, people start, you know, they cannot afford it. And so that's a big concern
just in general. So I just wanna say, so, um, I was
on the supervisors and ko to have this referendum because since joining
the board, I've heard like a lot of residents come and discuss, you know,
how the development is impacting them. And since we don't have a lot of reserves
to buy open space, this is one of the only ways that we can
fight the development and get, get those rights. And so it's the choice to the
township, right? You can vote yes or no, but yes, you pay more taxes,
but you get the option to buy a hand and hopefully minimize the development impact. So
I think, and I understand, I get the whole understanding and the, the
resolution of trying to come up with a solution, right? That makes sense. That we're trying to, as a township, trying
to figure out a, an option that we have to preserve that. 'cause yes, everyone is
complaining about not having open space. So I appreciate that. I think it's just
still, you know, again, there's a lot of questions and, and we definitely appreciate you guys trying to bring this.
so maybe by the time october comes around, we can flush out, you know, maybe a little bit
further some of these other questions because a lot of people that are looking for that
is, you know, again, it's gonna be, what is it for how much taxes?
and then that's a state that those taxes can go up at any point in time. I mean that,
again, taxes go up, we get that that's life, but what percentage
do they continually go up? And that's, I think the thing that, you know, there is a concern generally
in that public, especially with people in fixed incomes. And I know that you said that they'll be mostly
okay, but also people who, you know, newer families or the
single, you know, people who have been fortunate enough to buy a house. I think it kind of just comes into
play and maybe that's something we can flush out a little bit more in october and, and those are all fair, fair
points. And I think it's mostly just the choice of the residents if they want this or not. And so that's
the best thing we can do. Like you, you tell us do you want to go to by land or not? You
know, it's, it's up, up to everyone. Well, I think the more that we can flush out the questions and give a little
bit more, you know, just kind of going in, I think that's the whole purpose is just being able to really flush
that out, really have all the information. And again, the questions and appreciate
the transparency here. I think it's just a matter of really maybe adding a couple
things or whatever that may come up. This is why we want to do it in september because
we'll have another one on october and then, then by that time we can have add a couple
more q and as and stuff like that. So thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thank you.
by the way, this property we're selling in item number nine. It's all used equipment.
there's nice, there's a nice 2018 dodge ranch,
40,000 miles on there. Morning . Hi, my
name is jean corde. I live at 6 36 old state road in
upper providence township. My husband and I, we've lived up in this
township for over 30 years, and I agree with the
past lady is isn't this a good 20 years too late?
I agree with why now. And I also wanna comment that
I think this open space meeting and question, it's kind of
ironic since you have developers sitting right here in the same meeting.
but my question is, I saw you saw, um, put up on the map,
the open the, um, houses down in montclair
that are flooded that you could possibly buy. But
my question is, I don't think any developers are gonna wanna buy this anyhow
as prime land because it's in a flood war, you know, flood area.
so I couldn't see this being developed in some big beautiful community.
but the land and you said is still available. How many
acres are prime land now? All of a sudden, 20 to 30
years later, we're gonna try and save. So how many acres is it? Do you know?
it was 1300 acres. That's not very much. Really? The township is
17,000. Right? Uh, I but in time again, I I I can't speak to
why we didn't do this. 20. Yeah, I mean 1300 acres ist a
lot of land. And I know where I live on old state road,
every single field or orchard has been sold
and now all of a sudden you're concerned about the wildlife. I have a parade
of deer going through my backyard every single day
all the time because the township did try and save the wildlife
20 to 30 years ago. So you say you're concerned about the
wildlife, but it doesn't really seem like you are, I mean I'm very concerned about
wildlife and plants and trees and all that. Um,
and the other comment is, if we didn't have all this,
we wouldn't need all this revenue for roads and schools and you
know, the trails, the trails are beautiful, but somebody's paying for it now.
how much more beautiful can they be? I don't know where the money's coming from,
I'm sure from my taxes, but I'm just I
agree with the last lady is why now? I mean, I I just don't understand it.
and actually I'm just alexis of the board every two years and you have the new board.
yeah. And that is why it's now. Yeah, but I I just can't believe in
at least 20 years. Nobody else thought that you can't control what anyone else. Yeah. Or
the board. Okay, well I'm, I'm voting now. I don't want this and I'm
disappointed in our, my leaders.
alright, any more informational questions? That's what we're looking for.
marlene laska 1142 egypt yard.
I'm just curious why I,
the, the zoning, um,
has, it has already been open space. So zoning,
so why, why now? Uh,
why, why are we,
how, how is is the zoning handled today
for open space? Right now we have a, um, a
a zoning district called open space preservation. That is all of the township
property and a select few other properties. Some of the,
excuse me, some of the county owned properties, some of the state owned property, those are all zoned
open space preservation. Those are already open space properties.
if for some reason, like the parkhouse situation, something was to
sell, the zoning is very limiting on that. Um, the properties
that we are talking about that are represented on this map are
probably mostly zoned r one. Um, I can see some that are zoned io
two io io one. Um, there's a
variety of different zoning. The open space parcels, the undeveloped parcels
are not in the open space preservation district. That
district is really solely township and municipally
owned property. So, so you are saying
that potentially, uh,
the, you can have a residential community.
our, our residential property already, uh, zoned
residential. If it's not, if something's not zoned
open space preservation, it is probably zoned r one.
okay. Maybe r two. That's the current zoning. I mean, there's
a debate to be held that if I zone something open space preservation, I'm taking away the
property rights of that, of that property. And if I do that, then you as a landowner
could come to me and say, you've taken my property rights, you owe me x amount of money for
those property rights as an r one property, as an open space
preservation property. I don't have the map. I can't get to it real quickly. For the open space
preservation zoning district, that is again, township owned and
municipally owned property that we put into that open space
category. If we are to acquire additional property in the future,
whether that's through this ordinance or through another method, we will be putting that
property also into the open space preservation. It's a little bit more of an administrative task
than a pure zoning task, but that's how we sort of track what is
owned as the township. If you look at everything up there, that is a dark green
on that map. Okay. I guarantee if you pull up the zoning map, it's gonna
show up as, as open space preservation zoning district. And so the township
property, the other existed, uh, some other municipal owned property is all
in the open space preservation zoning district. And again, these two things are somewhat,
somewhat related but really not related. Open space preservation is an act by this board,
by the municipal government to open to preserve open space
and zoning is just an administrative designation for the property.
but, but there are properties that are zoned open space
that are owned by the township. That are owned by the township already. Yes. Already.
okay. Okay. Yeah, I I think I know what you're talking about.
park house was zoned open space. That was a mistake made by the board at
the time that was sold by the county. Open space on privately
held land has no meaning as far as preservation goes, only
on publicly held land. And you can see on the map what
we hold. So
tim 1 4 1 7 4 7 morgan lane in collegeville.
um, so what you're talking about there is the green, the dark green that's
already owned. Uh, first off I'd like to say thank you for the informational meetings
because, you know, since we moved here in 2016,
um, open space has been continually declining. Right?
and I think everybody here would agree that if
you just asked do you want more open space in upper providence township, most people are
gonna say yes. I would say that the signs that we see around
vote yes for open space, they're a little bit deceitful because not
all of the information is out there. So thank you for to the board for, for
holding informational sessions so that we can actually educate
the public to get to where we need to go. Chapter two 70
of the zoning. Um, so division land, but yes. Right. So the conservation
program, so chapter two 70 already restricts,
right? How much open space can be when we zone something or we
develop on certain land. The question is, isn't there already a restriction
that will prevent the entire land from being developed
for whatever purpose? There needs to be some open space conservation within that
development. The way zoning works, which is chapter 300 zoning,
when you come in for a development, when when most residential development comes in, there's
anywhere between a 10% to sometimes 50% set aside
for open space depending on the district it's in. So there's different districts from r
one to r four, right? Village preservation. So there's osr one o
sr two, right? R one, r two oh, r three, r four o sr two and osr one
are, are, um, they are districts that you can apply. They're
still zoned or one, but you can apply osr one to it,
osr one, in this case, let's use that. There's like a 75
acre minimum that you have to set aside for when you've use that development
district, that development option. Um, with, with an
r one piece, with just a basic r one piece, there's a 10% set aside of open space.
what this program is aiming to do is to purchase
all of that. So instead of saying if you have a hundred acre piece and you set aside
75 for open space and you've 25 houses on there
for the one acre development, well actually you get the full development. So you, you have
the houses on the 25%, you save 75%.
we're looking to save through this, the whole thing, all of, so
we would be buying the entire parcel. Yes. Turning it back
to, to dark green on your map. It, it would become, it would
become township owned at that point. And we would not, we can't develop it. We would not be developing
it. So we're basically competing to buy
property instead of developers buying property. Or that is, that
is one drawback to it is yes, we are competing with the developers of the world to buy property. So this
is just gonna up the cost between, uh, citizens versus the developers,
which it seems like has been the age old battle in this district. I,
again, it's the free market. We have to go out as the township in the free market. Now you hope
that you have a benevolent farmer, as I call 'em, that
someone that wants to say, hey, I don't wanna see my property developed. Let's find a way to make this
work. But you as a property owner or or a benevolent
farmer as a property owner, have the right to sell their property for whatever they wanna sell it for. We're just
out there competing with them at that same, at that same rate. Okay.
I'm not saying it's the best option and just say that's the reality of it. Right? So
just to clarify, it also wouldn't always have to necessarily be fee simple ownership,
which means that you own the entire property and you know, you, you own it outright.
you can buy it and essentially go to the benevolent farmer and say, hey,
you can stay on your property, you can continue to farm it, you can continue to live on it,
but we're gonna buy those development rates. So next time a developer might come and say
that they want to put up the townhouse community or something like that and you're in your
property, they would say, well, I already sold the development rights to the township. So
it's not necessarily always a fee ownership, a fee simple ownership situation.
and I wanted to ask a question because what a good topic. We can't
go above the assessed value, right? So we're not really in competition with the
selves. So. Correct. Can I ask another
question? What the assessment would be? I mean, you can pay under, but you
can't go over what the assessed value is and the assessed value is gonna be based on what comparable
sales have made for comparable land. So did you
say before it was the assessed or the appraised value? I may have misspoke. I
I do mean the assessed value. The assessed value. No, it's the appraised value. The app app
value. Sorry, I used the wrong word. So, so with the appraised value, who is the person
that is gonna do the appraisal and is that also open for public? We
have public information that shared to the citizens. Because
that's a, right, like
that should be public information. Correct. Can
you guarantee, is it written in the referendum that it will be
public information as to who is actually doing the appraisal? It will eventually be
public information in the midst of a negotiation for property. Wouldn't
have to make it public, but it would eventually be public document that,
that they could, that could be released. We do hire an appraisal firm,
an independent appraisal firm to do the appraisal. How that's negotiated is
up to the develop to the property owner. Our attorney negotiations,
I'm being not involved with sale, so right. I just as
a concerned citizen, you can see how my concern
would be, depending on who's doing the appraisal, they
could appraise it for whatever they want. And then the willing seller
could be someone else, whoever they want. And then
the person that is selling the property is just getting tax
diverted citizens taxes to enrich themselves at,
at the end of the, you have, you have a valid point, but all we can do is trust in the real estate
and the appraisal professionals that we hire. You've done it for years and,
and I, I get where you're going and what your point is, but all we can
do from a municipal standpoint is trust the appraiser that we use. Now
we, is there a petition for appraisal or is it a closed competition
that is not open to the public? Is the question and I,
an appraisal is done by the appraiser. They, they don't have a public
forum to right, but you appoint the appraising company
or is there appraisal companies that can compete for
who's going to be hired? Um, I do the appraisal generally through
the board. The appraisal wouldn't be a bidding process. It's a, it's professional services,
so there's no requirement to go out to bid. But I mean, all appraisers are certified.
they have state licenses, they are required to, they have ethics
requirements, things like that. I mean, any of the appraisers I know would,
you know, they it, they would never do anything like that. I
mean it's, it's like an engineer falsifying a document to
contrary to engineering principles. I mean it's, it's, you have to trust your professionals.
okay. You see what I'm, you see what I'm asking? I mean, we've all gotten appraisals
done before. What you're asking is basically criminal corruption. So
I mean I, we we can't, but that's why I'm asking. It should be. That's why my state first statement
was it should be public knowledge. Yes. Because an appraisal would eventually
become available to the public in the midst of negotiating
a price and doing that. That's not a public document, that's not subject to rights.
no law. But when the, when the board would actually move to, uh,
to take official action, the appraisal would be publicly available.
okay. So after the fact it, it would be subject to
rights to know and it would be publicly available information. Correct.
okay. Um, so I just wanna make one comment. So you mentioned
the sign that you see as they vote. Yes. Those are not township signs. We, we
are. No, I agree. I just wanna make sure, because you mention that the signs you guys had out yes. I understand
that it's, it's not, this isn't a board project. This is, I just wanted to make sure that everyone's aware that the
natasha was not telling anyone how to vote. It is your choice. Okay. Thank you. Correct. Yes.
um, you mentioned that, that the funds that were
in the, that were in the program, um,
so they stay in that program in perpetuity or would they eventually revert
to a possible general fund after a certain timeframe?
under state law, they cannot go to the general fund. It has to be a special correct. They
have to be put in a segregated fund. Certain percentage of them, I think 25% can
be used for like maintenance and, uh, development of the
properties. But the rest, it has to stay within that segregated fund.
okay. Um,
and is there any, or was there any consideration to a possible sunset
clause of this program? Um,
if, if we get to a point that, you know, we, we've
raised enough funds that we don't see that it's necessary anymore.
like, or hey, if the citizens no longer, like, uh,
what, how this is going, uh, that the
tax increase will ever go away. Or like most
taxes, once you raise the taxes, the taxes are raised forever.
so there is no sunset clause in the ordinance that was adopted by the
board. If you adopt a referendum, if it passes, it has to be around
for a certain number of years before it can be repeal. I think it's five or six years. I'm
trying to check the statute, but that's as soon ast that it could be repealed.
otherwise it has to be in place for that number of years. Right. But then afterwards
it could be repealed. There was no discussion going
into this about a sunset clause that would, the ordinance
that would put it back up for a vote, the ordinance that was adopted does not have a sunset set.
um, okay.
that's it. Thank you for talking. Thank you.
alright. There's anyone else with an informational question,
otherwise we're gonna move on to regular public comments at this time. And,
uh, so if you have regular comments, I'd ask you to come forward again to elect her and state your
name and, uh, please try to hold your comment to three minutes.
okay. Trying to talk best. Um, I know the
quest project is on the agenda tonight and I know there's been a lot of, uh,
chatter about the historic farmhouse, just like mr.
timer's not working. So I'm timing you. I will buzz you. Okay.
um, I just wanted to know if anybody here or
the developers know anything about the historic farmhouse. Um,
'cause I did some digging, um, handed
the pajama in the blue shirt right there. I could
. Um, the house,
my parents owned the house from 1978 to 1988.
um, they bought it from, uh, the griffiths.
bob griffith had been a long time township supervisor. Um,
and my mother researched it as far back as she could,
uh, within the county records. And it dates back
to at least 1747, um, which
is 58 years before the township was the township. Um,
I gave you some pictures. One is of the house, um,
the barn. It was a, a large barn. It had two sections that kind of met
in the center. And when my parents bought it, uh, there was
a lot of rock there. So they had to tear the one, the rear section off, which
was towards blackrock park. Um,
uh, let's see. Yeah, they sold it in 88 to reland, who then turned it into the quest
property. Um, let's see. Um,
so considering that it was built sometime probably
before 1747, but like I said, we didn't go to philadelphia to,
we didn't want to go to philadelphia to look at any more property records. So that makes the
center section, which we determined by studying
how it was built architecturally, that, that's the oldest section in the house.
and then the end section that goes, uh, back towards the skate park
was probably the second section built. And the stone park, I mean,
it's all stone, but the part closest to the road was probably the third section.
um, on the last page I made a copy of and they're not great.
um, we metal detected there like around the house and we found
a button or what we believe is a button because it's got an edge, it's hollowed
out. Um, metal, the metal decayed to
a certain extent, but we did a rubbing, which is on there, but the button, uh, dates back
to 1780 and it's got like a double-headed eagle,
so it looks like a prussian type thing. Um, and we also, while
we lived there, found a letter in the attic of the middle section, which is the
oldest, um, from the civil war. So
it's not in the best of shape either, and I accidentally chopped the bottom of it off, but you can see
the date on there. So I just want to share some of the
historic farmhouse significance with the township. So, um,
so that's about it. Thank you. Thank
you, thank you. I'm glad. Don't be preserved.
victoria schitz, 2 48 baxter. And this is open form, correct? Just for anything that's
on the, the ballot. Okay. Um, I just have a question and, and more of also
a statement as well. The sewer bill, I know that's up for discussion and regardless
of putting it into real estate taxes, um, I, for one absolutely would prefer
to keep it separate as it is. Um, when I started, I've lived here for about,
since I've moved back to the area for about 17 years. Um, we
used to have it, obviously it was a quarterly, it was $200, now it's
352. Well, it, it raised up to about $152
in excess. Um, what's very helpful, especially for people trying to
pay their bills and understanding what their usage is, is by rolling it
into a real estate tax, we will kind of lose the transparency of it, even though
quote unquote have a, a semi, um, itemized, I guess billing statement
or however that's supposed to look. Uh, I for one, prefer to keep it separate. This way I understand
the, the, um, rules and regulations, if you will, the sewer bill. I can see when
it goes up, why it goes up. Again, coming from different households, I know different
townships do different things. Phoenixville has it by usage. It might be a flat
rate. Um, I went from $50 or you know, if you will, uh,
again, 200 bucks. Now it's to a month where, where it is now, it's $88 a
month on one person person. Now, that's not to equate that, of course we have
families, but, um, it's nice to be able to know exactly what you're paying for when
it comes to sewer. So I really would like to see that stay separate.
um, and if, and if not, I would like to also have an explanation maybe of why
you guys were thinking about rolling it in. 'cause that's one thing I do not know, like what is the purpose
of wanting to roll the sewer bill into real estate taxes? So maybe you can enlighten,
uh, enlighten me on that and, and what that's about. Um, the second thing, um,
that I would like to know about, and again, you can share this, is, um,
someone had already asked the questions, but what is, uh, what are the
properties that the township are looking to sell? And that's
something I'd like to know. Okay. . And then, um, another
thing is also township pension plans. I was a little
curious as to why that's kind of on the, on the agenda. I mean,
you know, just curiosity on the that. Um, and then the last one is,
um, where's the new public works facility located and where's the old one?
and why do we need to have that kind of transparency in, in order to understand
where the new one is going and the cost and all that. So those are just a couple of my questions was on the agenda.
the first one is because we would save money, and so for the township, if we rolled,
um, if julie took over the, the budget. Okay. So
I, I don't anything else money because we did that before. Think was important.
yeah, we, we did that before it was $200, it was $50 a quarter. Now, brenda,
thanks. Yeah, I don't know anymore. I just put that that's okay. But I, I appreciate that. So if anybody
else can share within that, or if they have any idea or what that looks like
and what's the price, how, how will we know the differentiation, all that stuff. We we're
not gonna vote on it tonight. We tabled it because we need more time to answer all those
questions. Okay. So at least then you'll, at least you'll have some questions exactly. To know what to answer. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate
that. Thank you. Thank you. Mm-hmm .
15. The phillies are on late tonight. Al zi, 1 28 patriot drive.
um, comment about quest, then I'll make a comment about
the open space thing first with quest, um, like everybody else, about two years
ago, we were shocked to find out that the quest building was sold. And,
um, initially the reaction of developing it was not
pleasant. But I can say that over the past couple years, seeing what
is planned here, it's a unique type of property that
I think only upper providence can pull off. This isn't being built in limerick. It's
not being built in lower providence for a reason. Can't handle it. This is still
the jewel of the, of the montgomery county. So, um,
it combines, um, commercial, residential tax
base, um, support. And it's a, it's a well planned
community. And I told you before, your job's getting harder,
not easier than when we had it. 'cause you have, you know, ground
pegs and square holes. So, uh, I know you have other things
on this agenda, uh, over at, um, across the street at, um,
the pfizer property. And, um, they're gonna ask you to do other things
probably. So look at, instead of changing zoning, look at
little pieces and make your opinion known what you
want developed and help ms. , you know how many times I said when a developer
came in with a crummy project, I said, go build it in limerick, right? Where
they have the social security building. Sorry, sorry, limerick people. But,
um, but it's true. Um, so, um,
the, uh, old house that's on the, uh, on the property at quest,
think you have to look at what can actually happen. We can't have a coffee shop there
that's not gonna support it. Low providence did a nice job with the cvs
building. It's a law office. It's a, it's a high end law office. So it's just, just
think about that. I think you're gonna prove this tonight. Just you can turn
that building into something. If think it's going to be a bite stop with a coffee
shop. Not happening. Not realistic. It really, really isn't. So just
stick out of the box. There was a lot of talk about the school buses last time.
we had a battle with the school district in 2015 because they wouldn't go into
the neighborhoods. They're in the neighborhoods in river crest because of the battle
we had back then. Um, jo and tom deo were very good
to, um, help the transportation department realize that a school bus won't
ruin the roads inside the development. So I think, um, the developer
here probably has a, a decent, um, plan. There's not a chance in the world. The bus
is gonna go into this development though. But the school district has done a better job
bringing the buses where they need to be. Um, as far
as the open space piece, um, we bought a
lot of property, a lot of property, and we took a lot of heat for
it. How ironic. Now people are saying,
why don't you buy more? We did lewis road next to the, uh, seventh grade
center, bought a lot of property there. Uh, there's a, an old house from 1753
at the town . And when we did it, there were people in the room behind me here that
complained. So it's just how things happened. Um,
my only thought with having a referendum
is you box yourself in five
of you can do anything you want, just create something. You don't need a referendum.
that's why you're elected. 'cause if you, you rely on the public, sometimes
you're not gonna make 'em happy. So, um, referendums
box yourself, you box yourself in and you just did. Um, I respect
what you do and here to support you. Um, but you're
boxed in now. Um, and one last thing you should notice,
but we still have the lowest, um, wastewater,
um, fee. One of lowest of any community around
here. So you were asking about that back there.
that's all I have. Thank you very much. Thank you.
is there anyone else would like to make anyone else like to make public comment?
alright, we'll move on.
uh, tonight, we had an executive session just prior to this
meeting, and we discussed, uh, legal negotiations,
prior matters, tax selection and pending litigation matters.
we have a bill list in our packet, uh, for august period. August 1st
through august 30th. I'll entertain a motion on that.
I make a motion to approve the august 1st through august 31st, 2025
bill list in the amount of $1,367,549
and 40 cents. I second.
I have a motion and a second. All those in favor say aye. A aye. Any,
any opposed? Thank you. Alright. Uh,
we also had, uh, minutes from our august,
uh, oh, excuse me, minutes from our august 18th meeting in our packet.
and, uh, if there are no corrections, I'll entertain a motion to approve those. I'll
make a motion to approve the august 18th, 2025 meeting. Supervisor's, regular meeting
minutes. I'll second. I have a motion to second. All
those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Anyone opposed? Thank you.
we have no public hearings tonight. Uh, first item on
all business is consider adopting resolution 2025
dash 28 granting preliminary land development approval for
the quest redevelopment at, uh, 1201 south collegeville
road. Okay.
good evening everyone. Allison zaro on behalf of ht 1201 collegeville,
llc. Um, this tonight I'm prepared. I got the, the laser pointer
before I started waving my hands around. Um, I know that the board is very familiar
with the site. This is our third time here about the preliminary plan.
um, and we received some good comments from you at the last meeting, primarily
focused on the residential portion of this project. Um, we've talked about the
commercial portion, um, on numerous occasions, so I'm not going to go over that again. But
I do want to highlight some things that we, we changed as a result of your
comments from the last two meetings. Um, on the residential portion of the
site, which is the upper portion of this plan, um,
primarily we were focused on, if you remember the, um,
the area that was is next to the stone house that, uh, ms. Troutman
was just talking about. Um, we are retaining that, uh, building on
the property. And there was concern about eight stacked townhouse
dwelling units that were in close proximity to that building on
the prior versions of the plan that we showed you. Um, the, the version you're seeing
on the screen tonight removes those, um, eight units in proximity to
the house. It relocates six of those units elsewhere within the
road network. Oops, I think I just said the wrong thing. No, that was me. Oh, that was you. Okay.
within the, um, the, the road network that we already have, um,
and it would drops the total dwelling unit count by two units.
we also relocated the top lot. If you remember, it was over here on
the right side of the plan. We've now relocated that to, um, be
in proximity with the stone house. We feel that that could be a nice amenity
space overall and put it all together. Um, we've also added a little
outdoor area, um, which you'll see in the renderings that we have with us tonight,
um, to create an amenity for the community. The other
positive that came out of relocating and reconfiguring this is that
the road connection between the commercial and residential portions had a
little bit of a funky curve to it originally. We were able to straighten that out on
this plan, um, and make for a better movement between the two, uh,
portions of the site. If you recall, there is a stream that runs through the site. And so that's sort of
our natural break in the property. And then finally, because
we were able to move these, um, various aspects of the plan
around, we were able to eliminate retaining walls both in height and
and length, uh, within proximate proximate proximity,
I should say, to this a an existing sewer easement on the property. So
this all resulted in what we think is a positive improvement for this
plan. The other thing I wanted to mention, and I know it was brought up in
the comments earlier, is last time we were here, mr. Yeager had raised a concern
about school buses coming onto the site. We have coordinated with the director of
transportation for spring ford, um, since we were last here.
and she said that the school district would be willing to come into this property,
provided that the hoa signs, a hold harmless agreement, which is how it's
been handled in river crest and some of the other developments in the area. So that is something that we can
promulgate upfront as part of this community because we know about it going in.
so we're willing to do that if for some reason that changes in the future. Um,
we do believe we have an appropriate area here on the site. Um, if
you recall the separate entrance to, um, the residential property also
has, uh, that parking lot right there that would serve as over foot parking, community
space, et cetera, next to the stone house. And so we do believe there's an appropriate
location, um, for both the, uh, children and their parents
to be waiting for the bus if that should be needed. So, um, so those are the
main, uh, changes that we need to the plan. Um, we do have updated
renderings. You've seen the commercial renderings before they're in this presentation.
so, and herb is not with us tonight, so I will not run through them specifically unless
you have questions. But at the end, we do have a couple of renderings of,
this is the new, um, view from blackrock at the stone house.
so you can see what it looks like with the elimination of those units. Um,
and then I think we have a second slide. Yes. That showed to you, um, the expanded
amenity area and top lot in proximity to the stone house
to happen to answer any questions. I do have dave lance groner, um, and our civil
engineer dennis kirk here with me tonight. Do you think you can make that top
wall a little bit higher? The top wall wall? Um,
is there a gray change there already, dennis? Or,
okay. Yep. We can raise it. Yeah, I, I, it's a good
point. You wanna make sure that there's like either a protected barrier or something. Yeah. But no, I think this
is great. I thank you for taking our comments and just consideration. We
would appreciate it. Um, also, I don't wanna see the sml farmhouse. Do
you think it'd be good prevent anything like that from happening? Um,
the loss of the farmhouse, we are proposing to retain it on the plan. Um,
and you know, I think the ultimate use is a little
fluid still at this point. Um, I understand people have different opinions about what it
should be, but I think our, our thought here is that it will serve as some
sort of community space with that ta log right next door as well as the parking.
yeah. So would you dedicate money to
rehabbing? You'd have to, right? Yes. I mean, that was the intent from the beginning, um,
dave, correct? Yeah. And that is still the intent. Yes, absolutely.
we, we know it needs some work. So
thank you for working with us on that. And, um, did you did the
question, do we have any answers on that? Well, we did look
at, um, other stacked town home communities in the area. We talked about it originally
in the context of, um, my client having done development work in the city. But he has talked to
other developers in the suburbs and none of them have a community dumpster,
although they're stacked towns still would operate the same way as a traditional
townhouse community in the sense that you're required to store. And that would
be part of the hoa docks, your particular, um, trash containers,
recycling containers within your house, within the garage, pull them out
on, you know, collection day, take them back in there, wouldn't be sort of scattered,
um, trash containers all over the community. And certainly we can either do
that in, you know, one round, two rounds, whatever the township thinks
is best from that perspective. And ultimately there would be, um,
the hoa, the board would be responsible for,
uh, making sure that there's one collector coming into the community, not this sort
of willy nilly, hey, I picked my own, um,
provider. Would we be responsible for this?
no, that would be retained by the hoa board. Yes. The h oa board. The oa board,
yes. We would not, we would not, we wouldn't wish that on you. .
I have one more question. So right now, I know the township uses that parking lot for
our big events. Is there some way we, we had to use like a portion of the
parking lot for any future communities or anything like that?
so, um, on the date, I know there's an event coming up. I, I think it's,
is it this month? I think it's this month. It's this month. So we've agreed
for that. Um, as far as in the future, it's gonna be dependent on the
retailers and really what their lease says. Um, if there is flexibility,
we'll obviously work with the township, but I can't guarantee it. 'cause some retailers want to protect
their parking so that they cannot people there and shop for the store.
so each retailer gets a certain number of spaces? Some, yes. Typically.
are there any extra spaces that are just around that we could, it's again,
it's just a function of who's gonna be there and who we, you know, is gonna be the end user
and the space. Everyone has different requirements from a zoning standpoint. They are a little over
parked. We're definitely over parked. I I mean, I can tell you that we're definitely
over parked. So if we, again, if we can, we will absolutely help
for sure. Thank you. Sure.
there's no other questions. I'll make a
motion without resolution. 2025 dash 28 granting preliminary land
development approval for quest redevelopment. 12 0 1 south collegeville
road. I second. Alright, I have a motion and a second
to adopt resolution 2025 dash 28 granting preliminary
land development approval for quest three development 1201 south coto road.
all those in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed?
thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks.
number six was, uh, we were gonna consider enacting ordinance
six 15 on e-bikes, but we missed an
advertising deadline. So we're going to table that item
until, uh, next month. We don't need a motion
for that, do we? Okay. Alright.
and now under new business, uh, item number seven, discussion of bridge on
this is a informational presentation, uh, for potential
development of 400 r colebrook. Good evening.
I'm kristen pcio with hamburg rubin mall and maxwell lupin. Uh,
I'm here tonight, uh, with my team that is sitting here in the two
rows, uh, to the right over there
we have, uh, the owners of the property are here, at least part of them. Uh, from
green barn investment group. The two gentlemen over there, it is chris richter
and matt lavell. The other owner is david warner real estate. He's
not present this evening. Uh, will jagger is here from buller engineering sitting
on the yen. Uh, matt hammond from traffic planning and design is
here. And eric hetzel from eh, creative services,
who did some financial analysis is here as well. Um, we're
here to talk about, uh, the, the green, the, uh,
pfizer dow property, as we all call it. Uh, this property was acquired
by my clients two years ago. Uh, a year ago. They met with staff
to talk about the trouble that they were having with this property and its decline
in may of this year. We met with staff to talk further about
the vacancy and the downward spiral spiral of the office, uh,
use on the property. We discussed some proposals on our end
and staff said, come in with the sketch, discuss it, uh, with the board. And
that is why we are here. So, um, we have some proposals to
discuss with you or a proposal to revitalize the property.
um, it is, uh, a suffering piece of property, 335
acres. It is terribly underperforming. And, uh, we
have a proposal to fix that. And I'd like to suggest that
there are three benefits, uh, that we will share with you. And in
10 minutes, I can go through our slide projection, go through that with you,
and then we are here to answer questions. We do have slides
that jeff can click through, but I have hard copies here in case
you want to go back and look at things. I know you have screens in front of you, but
I like hard copies and thought you might like them too. So just gimme a second. They're all
hands up.
there should be one for everybody, including the police. 'cause I know you're interested.
is there enough, jeff? Uh, you one short?
I have. Oh, this is different,
your honor.
you want hear me? I can hear. Oh, we're fine. We have plenty. Thank you.
um, so this is just the cover page. That's everybody who's here. So you have our names.
uh, next slide please, jeff. Uh, so this is the property
identified here. I think you're all, uh, familiar with it. Arcola road
is down here on the bottom. We have route 29 here to the top.
this is, uh, 4 22. This is route 29. We call
this the quadrant, uh, in reference to other, uh, exhibits
that I will share with you. Next slide please.
so, uh, the office, uh,
square footage consists of 1.9 million square feet.
currently, dow is occupying 800 square
feet on your copies. You should see those in color. And for
those people watching, it's, this area right here is occupied by
dow. They are, uh, they have a 10 year lease. So they
are staying and they occupy 800,000. Pfizer
is occupying 675,000 square feet. They
are here, we're not sure how long they'll be there. And keller williams
occupies these two little buildings right here on the property.
the rest of the property is vacant. Next slide please.
so, uh, there's been a major reduction in the assessed value of
this property. Uh, you had a lot of conversations tonight about tax revenue
and if this, the court has, uh, approved
the tax reductions since we were here in front of the planning commission
a couple of weeks ago. And tonight, you can see from this exhibit
there's three columns. Here we have the current occupancy, the previous
assessed value for the property. And this is the assessed value, not the market value.
it's about $144 million that had
a market value of about 468 million.
uh, the current reduced, uh, assessed value has
dropped to 45 million. So we've lost, uh, a significant
about $101 million in assessed value on this property.
and that's based on the current occupancy of employees of 550.
the last column shows that there's a current, this current trend is
a reduction in occupants on the property. If that continues and drops to 250
employees, there's a further reduction, not in the property values, but
in the tax revenue. All the columns are there. So
at the bottom of this exhibit, you'll see we've done the tax revenue
for the township and the these column, these, um, rows here in
each of the columns. We've done the revenue for the school district here because we
think your residents care about both. And in the bottom, we have the total
tax revenue for each of the taxing districts. We did not do the counting,
just the township and the school district. So prior to the, to
the reduction, we had almost $6 million in tax revenue
to the township and the school district. Now it is about $2 million.
so, um, it is not only a problem for the property owners, um, we
think it's a significant issue for the taxing authority. So
we have a proposal to try to fix that. Next slide, please.
so in order to revitalize this office campus, and we
have a unique situation because dow is staying, those office
structures are in the middle of this property, and we'd like to revitalize
the use of the office, which is in the middle of the property.
and to do that, we are suggesting a townhouse development
along the right side of the property. It's on the side where the per
trail is located. The trail does traverse our property via an easement.
and, uh, we have proposed, uh, a
hospital or gmp use here along arcola road
that is about 290,000 square feet with surface
and a parking garage. The townhouses consist of 349.
and then we propose four pad sites down here, uh,
possibly a convenience store and three qsrs. They're quick service
restaurants. So the idea is to get people on this campus to
entice office users to come back to this property. We don't believe we
would have big hitters that would take a significant amount of square footage.
we think that we would have large, you know, smaller chunks of square footage to be
occupied by office users. Those people on the property would also
entice, you know, a hospital use on the property, which then would revitalize the
office use again for their, um, office needs.
and then the retail and or service restaurant use would
also serve these people. Next slide
please. So the next page in your packet and on the
screen, we've done analysis of what this development would
generate from a tax perspective. So just this development that
I just described. We have the residential in the first column, the
life science or hospital facility in this section here, and then the
retail or qsr in this section here. And grand total on
the end. We've done this for township revenue across the board.
we've taken into account the expenditures, uh, necessary for each of
those uses. Uh, school district along here, just like the
previous analysis, grand totals along the bottom. So in
total tax revenue for both the township and the school district, if all of
what I propose is constructed would be, uh, $3.15 million
in additional tax revenue. Next slide please.
so if we can just pause for a moment. If we have that additional revenue of 3.15 million
and we revitalized the office, we could get this property
back in total to a tax revenue for the school
district and the township to $9.15 million
of taxes for the both the township and the school district combined.
so the benefits, number one, that, that tax revenue, that's
the big one. Number two, we have, um, if we got
into land development, we would discuss some pedestrian connectivity that
we could continue through this property. Uh, on this plan
in purple is the existing public trail system. We have
this through campus drive across our cola. This is in purple.
we have the per trail, which traverses part of our property up
in this area in yellow, there is a significant trail
system through the campus of my client's property. There is
an internal road system, but also a trail system that is highlighted in yellow.
what you see in brown is what we could do. And as far as future
connectivity through that land development process, we could add
additional trail along our frontage, along our cola. We could
bring it around down, I mean, I'm sorry, on route 29. Then bring it
around on our cola, add some connections interior to the campus
down here. We have a gap back in this area. I'm
sorry, this area here where our existing trail doesn't quite
meet, uh, the perch trail. We could make that connection
and maybe another connection down on this lower end. Um, so
add to the trail system. We do have your, uh, interactive
trail map and we think that the, the pedestrian connectivity,
uh, would be another huge benefit for the township. And
lastly, as far as the third benefit, we would do our share of
improvements along route 29. Obviously we have a lot of frontage on route
29, and we understand there are other improvements being done
north of us on route 29. And there's a gap, uh, between
us and those improvements. We would obviously have an
impact on the all of route 29 and we could do our share,
uh, to complete that. And, um, add to those improvements
on the route 29, all of which we would obviously discuss, uh, during
the land development process. So
we know that you have, um, development fatigue. So I look
through your, uh, planning documents at the county and the township
level to see why from a planning perspective, does this make
sense? Next slide please. So starting with the monko 2040
vision, that's the montgomery county planning commission comprehensive plan.
next slide please. They've identified this area, what I call the quadrant,
which includes our property as a, uh,
regional retail. I wanna get it right,
regional mixed use center. I've circled that on the
plan. Next slide please. And they've identified and defined
a regional mixed use center as an intensely developed suburban
core with significant retail, lots of traffic, lots of jobs
overall, a lot of activity. It includes specifically high
density, multifamily, and town homes.
next slide please. Then I went to your comprehensive plan, which was just
adopted last year, and on page 66 of your
plan under the future land use plan, it talks about
given the ever shifting real estate development market and township needs,
the township needs to be cognizant of the trends and the underused ie
vacant office buildings, vacant industrial properties within its boundary
and the effect on the financial viability to adequately serve
the remaining township at large. So unlike other comprehensive
plans that have dozens of goals and objectives with respect to
the future land use plan, this comprehensive update
plan pairs that down to one guiding principle for the life of this plan.
and in bold, they put preserve those under undeveloped
areas and channel redevelopment into those areas
that the in infrastructure exists.
next slide, please. So clearly the infrastructure is here
on this property. Um, we have stormwater management, we
have road systems, we have, um, water, we have
sewer, we have intersections. And specifically on the next
page, they identify this route 29 interchange, campus drive.
um, identifying it is giving its proximity to the existing and long
term office campus, campus environments,
uh, proximity to the interchange of route 4 22, a
thriving commercial shopping area. Redevelopment of this area is
paramount to the future of the township. With the individual office market
floundering at this time, the township cannot wait for the individual office users
to return. Zoning should be reviewed to ensure flexibility with
a broad range of permitted uses. So we think
we've done our homework. We think that we've come up with something that will help revitalize
this property to create tax revenue for the township, add the connectivity
that's missing in pieces on this property, and do our part,
uh, along route 29. And we think that we followed your planning guidelines
both from the county and the township. And we'd like to work with your staff
with your permission to achieve some legislative, um,
result that could achieve this plan and go through
the details during the land development process.
can you talk a little bit more about the hospital there in the top left corner?
I'm going to ask for my clients to come up and talk about the details of those users.
this is, this is chris richter and matt labelle.
good evening. And, and, and thanks for hearing our, uh, presentation tonight. Uh,
we do not have a, a formal application. Our process
of, of the end result being with you tonight is we were approached by,
uh, a regional, uh, call it a national bank, uh,
to, uh, sign a location at the intersection. And we've had a full leasing team
in place, uh, at the campus right now to try to solicit additional office
users. And we were approached by, uh, one of the hospital groups.
uh, we've done nothing to progress those deals, uh, because
we're so far off with, with zoning right now and timing and understanding
the viability of, of we're building right now. So this is a process we're
trying to get comfortable that there is a process, um, for us
al to get to the end game. Um, I do want to bring up one other point,
which is, you know, I enjoyed the presentation in your open space, but
you know, we look at all these projects as, you know, sort of a, a public private, uh,
partnership. And you know, we have this
large chunk of land that you can see between the brook trail
and the river. Um, that the only uses for us right now
is that we have a 10% building coverage ratios. The land has value
based on the percentages, but we would certainly work with the township on understanding whether,
um, that parcel is something that, um, could be,
you know, part of the open space program. So we're here as we, we, we look
at all these partners we have to, um, as, as a partner with the municipality,
and we would gladly, you know, sit down with your staff and start looking at those opportunities.
see, I'm sorry, which part are you talking about? The open space? Is it where the residential is? So
I let see the, so this, if you, you know, just because we, this
parcel, this is the ingham trail, this is the river.
this was actually noted on one of your exhibits
that you had, um, pop as as potential, uh, open
space acquisitions. And I
don't have an acreage on it, but it's, I don't know, I'm looking at
my engineer here to say 20, 25 acres. Probably shy of that.
but you know, we, we would just want to get, have the opportunity to sit down with you
and understand your priorities. And I think we can do a lot. This is to
us, this is a campus that has a ton of infrastructure that will, will
benefit the townhouse community and we can integrate this project into the infrastructure
that exists. Uh, not just the townhouses, but the retail and potentially
the hospital site. I it crazy. Good place.
that'd be great. If it was mixed use instead all town rooms, would you have 349
townhouses? I'm sorry, I have a hard time hearing
you. Uh, just like a mixed use movement instead of all those town homes, you
have like what, 349 all town homes? 349? Yeah,
I, we, I mean honestly, we would talk about
anything. We, we, we, we did evaluate the opportunity of knocking down some of the
office buildings and creating, you know, I'll call it a, an
apartment true mixed use. If you've been through the campus and looked
at the dow building, it is just not that attractive. Um, and
I, I think, you know, we, we looked at this 10 different ways. Um,
and we've done mixed use projects, you know, throughout the country. Um,
and we just can't get comfortable with, with integrating residential into the
surface parking areas and not have it, uh, being adversely
impacted by the existing buildings that are there. Um, sites
open police take a ride through there anytime you want. You can take a look at the existing architecture
and realize it's just not compatible with integrating residential
adjacent to it. But
even the, you know, even the numbers, we're not married to 340
units. We'd love the opportunity to talk about what the appropriate buffer is
to the trail. You know, talk about the details that, um,
make a difference, um, and get to, uh,
a townhouse count that, uh, that makes sense to, uh, you know,
what, what's valuable to the township and still gives us a project that's worth pursuing.
um, we're not married to townhouses, but we think that's the right product. I think you've got a lot of apartments
coming online in town. Um, we think this particular location,
given its its open space, um, and we think
the townhouse is the right market as if compared to building more apartments.
you mentioned a $9 million number earlier. I was following your math until
you threw 9 million out. Yeah, I think what she missed is that if we can fill
the 500,000 square foot of vacancy, we would then have that
vacancy back in the tax roll, adding to
the, the 2 million plus the three, the 2 million under the existing scenario, plus
the 3 million to add value, plus getting that office space
filled up so it gets back into a higher suspect.
thank you.
yeah, you mentioned the fatigue. I mean, I think the fatigue is that it's just, I mean,
it's, it's constant, um,
multifamily high density housing that's coming at us all the time. And
providence, and that's, lene just mentioned it, it's, I, I, we
knew this was gonna come eventually. So first off, thank you very
much for coming in and starting here and not starting at,
hey, we got, we got preliminary plans and we're trying to get down them
track. It's always better to start here. So I really appreciate that. It's helpful because
it's, now we can start wrapping our heads around where you're thinking and kind of what we want to do.
you're right, the high density, we said in the, in the, uh, 10 year comprehensive
plan, we wanted it up around the 4 22 corridor. So this is kind of where we want it.
we just had a big development, um, a year ago and
schools were a giant issue. So 350 homes becomes,
we already have a community that believes we've outgrown our
school district. So what does this cause from us from a school standpoint?
um, do we need to redistrict schools? I think they're already talking about redistricting schools,
so there's a, so there's things come into play a lot too when we start talking about the,
the fatigue of the development. But, um, I'm intrigued by the
hospital actually. Is there, um,
I didn't see that one coming. Is there a, is there a need? Is there are, are
the current phoenix bill, so I've been responsible for wasting up the
property for the last two years. Um, minimally haven't done a that
great of a job, unfortunately. Um, but that's more of a response to
market, uh, kind of inquiries. We've had three different hospitals come
to us and say, hey, you've got this parcel over there, like, we want to be in this
area. We think that this area doesn't have, you know, isn't served,
um, by a hospital adequately. Um, so after,
you know, the first call I was like, okay, whatever. Second call came in, third ca
third call came in. I was like, there has to be something here. And that's really why we wanted
to put it on there. We also had gmp, which is, you know, drug, uh, manufacturing,
um, companies that have reached out to us as well. So we're just, we want to keep that
parcel as you know, flexible right now. Okay. Um, but there, there's
one particular hospital that has been more engaged than the other two.
um, and in response to your high density, we see
it, I, I'm here, you know, once a week, um, love the area. Um,
grew up in pennsylvania and uh, I, you know, we could
have come in here with, you know, four over one 3000
units and we, we just, I think, you know, from a commercial standpoint,
we, we kind of think that market's kind of maxed out. So we just, I don't wanna build something that
isn't saleable right. And that'll stay vacant. I have already got vacant space
that I need to deal with. So that's kind of what we came in with, uh, different
products I to, to serve a different demographic. Um, I like that you
started a townhouse and not stacked up. Yeah, it's, it's not stacked. It, they're regular old
townhouses. I think the 24 by 52
it'd be, uh, you know, three bedroom, you know, two and a half, three story, three bedroom.
um, they'd be nice units. Um, and, you know, you can't see it
very well on the plan, but, you know, it shows a full amenity area, full
pickleball courts. And we can, we, we can get into
the details on that. I mean, we, we are very fortunate that
land is not our issue on this property. Um, we
have a lot of flexibility. Uh, this was really just a starting point
to really look at, you know, from a zoning perspective, that
if we proceed forward, what we'd love to say is okay, you know,
mixed use makes sense on the property. A residential component,
a hospital component, uh, maybe manufacturing.
we don't see this as a great retail site. Um, it's just,
it's just too big. That's why I was curious how married you are to the fast food the
corner. We're, we're, we have, the only real interest we have
is, is the bank. I think it's a great little bank pad site. We think that some,
you know, quick serve restaurants or sit down restaurants makes a lot of sense for
the, uh, existing office tenants and the future tenants. We couldn't
care about the convenience store. I mean, it's just a placeholder. Anything that's objectional
what we don't want, and we will not proceed with, you know, a fight on this.
you know, we're here with a fight on this project, right? We want to,
we want to work with it. We wanna work with you guys, bring a project that, that
everyone's proud of. Um, and that's why, to your point,
we're taking this baby step to make sure that we're at least
in the ballpark and that we can, you know, not spend our money, not waste your time, not
waste our time, but proceed forward with the project. That makes sense for everybody.
I appreciate your privilege. The retail's interesting. I,
I almost wanna spend time and kind of take an assessment of what is all the things going here?
what do we actually, because there's a lot going in at quest now,
I have potential to put something additional in here that we don't have
in the township, right? So what, how can we be creative with what
yeah, what, what don't we have that, maybe we can go into this.
can you show the, the buildings that are currently being used again
in the, can you yep. We'll get,
so just the ones, so dow is all of the blue. Dow has this
portion right here, right on the hard copy. You can see it
highlighted easier. So the, are they all occupied or not? No,
we have, dow has about, um, a 1.9 million square feet. Dow
has, uh, about 800,000 square feet. Pfizer has about 6 75,
and then keller williams has a four building a and that's about it.
everything else is, is currently vacant. What's the plan for,
for those cases now? Are you, we're hoping that, that by creating
more of a destination, a little more activity, um, and that's really
the retail. I, I, I hear you. Um, if we had some quick service retail,
we think it's a little bit easier than people getting in their cars and coming over to wegman's
across the way, which I do every time I come for lunch. Um,
and, uh, you know, that'll drive some more leasing activity at, at the buildings.
right now we're just an office park in the middle of kind of a fields
around us, but we,
you know, just, just chime in, you know, the town better than we do. If
there's a use that you feel could benefit the community, we're
all ears. I mean, it's, uh, we, we have the real estate, it's just,
we don't yeah, that's kind of where my head was at. I appreciate your
openness with that. I think we have to step back a little bit about that.
we, we also have an old farmhouse that, uh, is currently vacant. Uh, it's
in really good, it's really good shape. Um, but we don't, we don't use it. We
don't know what to do with it. So we're open. Where, where is it on? Where is it on? Oh, is it, so our, our old
barn, which is the conference center is right here. And then the farmhouse is, uh,
is right there. It was converted to a three, uh, person hotel, um,
with three suites, but nobody uses it anymore. Um, so,
and we don't know with that open suggestions. Yeah.
article in like was it the philadelphia enquire like couple
a year ago? It could have been two years ago at this point about, um, this like life science campus that
was interview with you. Is this we, yeah. Shortly after we closed, that was our
idea is, uh, life sciences. Um, uh, that market
dried up signifi significantly. Uh, unfortunately after we closed. Um,
we've been trying to draw people out there. Um, it's tough to get,
uh, past, get them past kind of king of prussia area. Um,
and all the tenants that work, the life science tenants that are looking, they're
not just looking in philadelphia. They're really comparing philadelphia versus boston
and all the way down to like research triangle in north carolina center. You all the, like, the
push to move manufacturing here. Like, I hope that comes, I
hope that comes, we haven't seen it yet, but I hope it comes.
that's why the gmp facility up there, that would be perfect. Um,
you know, there's been a lot of talk, we just haven't seen anyone actually do it yet.
yeah. And we're not adverse to tearing down some of our vacancy
for the right tenant. Um, you know, we don't know
how much vacancy we have, but right now I think, you know, the, we have at close
to half a million square feet. So, um, we're looking at
any opportunities that, that, uh, present itself.
brainstorm board. Jeff.
well, I appreciate him starting the conversation. Yeah. We'll, we'll, we'll figure out what our next steps are.
I appreciate you coming and presenting this. This would requires a zoning change, right.
do this. So yeah, my thoughts on it, just initial thoughts is
a completely huge zoning district. I don't want to add this in as, as io
you know, residential diss residential that we have, we other subgroups. It would be something
I think that we, we look at just a complete new zoning district of
mixed f and something else that, that encapsulated all of what we concluded
for it. And, uh, you're
still gonna leave though all the existing buildings and an existing part. You're not talking about
your just, you don't wanna knock them down. You don't want that with mind.
well, we'd love to have the flexibility built in. We, we,
we misjudged the life science, you know, cycle. Um, so
it would, I think it would benefit the project and, and the property
to, to work with you guys and, and put everything that may or may not happen
that that works for you guys into the zoning as permitted uses or conditional
uses, depending upon how you want to structure it. Um, life
sciences may come back the next cycle. Um, so it's, it is
really, um, we don't plan on that right now 'cause the
market doesn't exist. But it doesn't mean that five years from now it doesn't. Well, what would work me a
little, a little bit is, um, you're gonna be redeveloping all around
the edges of this and you've still got this core of building as a parking
lot in the middle that may or may not make a comeback based on what you do around
it. So then what? It's just this dead core of industrial loadings.
yeah, I I, I, I wish I had an answer for you on that. Uh, it is our
hope, and it's actually our business plan, is that through,
um, adding these ultimate uses, as an example, if we do get a
hospital, there's those peripheral medical offices that follow hospitals.
and that could be an opportunity for us to fill some of the vacancy. Um,
you know, if you, if you give this, this, this, I'll call it a
live work environment, uh, there may be additional officers
that would come here 'cause their employees have, um, good
housing in close proximity. I think they're gonna have other opportunities in town as
well. But, um, you know, we don't want to tear 'em down yet. Um,
could we be back here in, in, in five years and 10 years and talking about, you
know, knocking down that core pfizer and
dow will be there. I'm not sure if they're gonna be in the same square footages,
but they will be there and they kind of book in that, that property to a point where
you have those, uh, four buildings in sort of the semicircle
configuration. Those are the ones that may be five years from now. If our business
plan doesn't work out, uh, we're gonna have to start thinking about
what we do with that core area. I'm
sorry, go ahead. I think this is also an opportunity to look at the zoning
for, this was originally written in 1970. I mean, this is obviously
that type of industrial or that type of business campus that really doesn't exist anymore.
you can see campuses up and down the, the corridor that, that have
gone a different way and, and, and been completely, you
know, remodeled or re redeveloped. I, you know, the parking standard
for this is probably much higher than it needs to be. I mean, I think at the planning commission
they mentioned people are there three days a week, so obviously you don't need to see a parking.
um, maybe that, you know, some of the development can go on
to where the existing parking is, not to the level maybe that the planning commission was hoping.
but, but you know, those are the ideas that we can take with us and, and sort of move
forward to see how we can adapt this from the 1970s
zoning and the 1970s development patterns to something that reflects more of the way
the society is now. And the more, as I said, a live work environment that that
is much more beneficial for the township if we are to move this forward.
thank you. Yeah, thank you so much. So,
um, we'll leave you with our materials and we'll
look to hear back. We'll work through your staff with your comments and hopefully
have some dialogue. But thanks for your time tonight. We really appreciate it. Thank you.
hopefully we'll hear from you soon. Good night. Kristen. Chris,
I have a thousand of these. Please take it.
um, our next item.
our next item was to discuss adding sewer building to the real estate
tax bill. But, uh, in our executive session we found that we
quite didn't have things lined up. So we're going to table that item
number eight. We need to make a motion to table, or
I'll make a motion to table agenda number eight this
evening relative to adding suitability into the real estate
tax base. I'll second that. Alright, I have a motion. And second, all those in
favor say aye. Aye. Anyone opposed? Thank you very much.
okay. Um, next we're gonna
consider authorizing the advertisement and sale of township owned property.
it is not real estate. It is to reiterate, this is personal property of
the township recommendation to equipment.
it's not open space. Now, generally twice a year staff, uh,
uh, puts together a list of, uh, surplus equipment that is at the end of it for
life. Most of it is, um, uh, I think most of, most
all of us has been replaced through the township's, uh, capital budget.
uh, so we're seeking boards authorization to advertise and sell a 2004
caterpillar skidsteer, a three point auger salt spreaders,
a 2018 dodge charger with 88,000 miles, a 2018
dodge ram 1500 with 112,000 miles, a
2005 load wright boat trailer without the boat.
44 sections of fire hose, multiple boxes, uh, high vein radios,
other various equipment, uh, of minimal value as we get
down the list. We'll be back to you again in january, february with the similar list.
are we gonna, it was on municipal bid. It would go on municipal bid.
publicly bid. That dodge charger is that got the, is that a police, a foreign
police car? Yes, it was intercept identity.
we're gonna put a gps on it. ,
um, auto tickets. I'll entertain a motion. I'll make
a motion to authorize the advertisement of the sale of township owned property as the student.
I'll second. Alright, I have a motion to second. All those in favor say aye.
aye. Anyone opposed? Thank you.
alright. And uh, next is motion to
enact ordinance 6 1 6 regarding the purpose of duties
of the uniform construction of fire board code appeals.
go ahead. The township, uh, has had a uniform construction
code board of appeals in place since 2004. Uh, when the pennsylvania
uniform construction code was, uh, enacted statewide
in my 10 years of the township, I think we've had three meetings
of that board where they, uh, sought a variance or, or appealed the, the building
code officials interpretation of the code. Uh, and the uniform
construction code establishes a very, very rough framework for what that board is supposed to do and
how they're supposed to act. Ordinance six 16, it was repaired by,
uh, the solicitor, uh, developed some procedures and
rules that they're to follow as they conduct meetings or hearings that's been
properly advertised or asked to the board to consider enacting the ordinance tonight.
we have any questions? If
not, I'll entertain a motion. I'll make a motion to enact ordinance six 16
regarding the purpose and duties of the uniform construction fire code board of appeals.
I'll second. I have a motion and a second. All those in favor say aye. Aye.
anyone opposed? Thank you.
and the next one's related. I see. Yeah, the, the
next resolution on your agenda is related to the uniform construction code board of appeals.
it amends the township's fee scheduled to establish a fee for of a $500
for a meeting or $1,000 for a hearing before
the board of appeals. Okay. Alright. I'll entertain
a motion. I'll make a motion to adopt resolution 2025
dash 29 amending the fee schedule to include fees for
the uniform construction and fire code board of appeals. I'll
second I motion a second. All those in favor say aye. Aye.
anyone opposed? Thank you.
okay. And now we're gonna talk about pension funds, right?
am I right mr. Chairman? This is something we do every september.
uh, we get the actuarial numbers from our, uh, two actuaries
from mock and hopin and joe do them for all of our defined contribution
and defined benefit plans. So the required
by september 30th, november year to provide with the actual
mmo, that's the required minimum, minimum municipal obligation
that we're supposed to, um, provide to bring, make pitch
funds whole. And these numbers will be reflected the 2026
budget. Did they go up a little from last year? The percentage? Joe, can you answer
that? They were here a few months ago, but I had forgotten.
we're just about the same. Yeah,
I'll entertain a motion this obligatory.
okay. I'll make a motions without resolution. 2025 dash 30 outlining
the 2026 minimum municipal obligations nmos
for the township pension plans. I second. I
have a motion a second. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Anyone
opposed? Thank you. And
motion to adopt resolution 2025 or consider adopting,
uh, resolution 2025 dash three one authorizing
the submission of an application for a rapc grant, uh, program
for the new public works facility. Mr.
chairman, this is our ongoing, uh, grant stacking strategy that we're trying to
get monies for the new facility. It's a long term project
wrap. The, uh, grant round just was announced, um, very
recently and there's a very short turnaround time. So, um, delta's put this
together for our consideration. This will be discussed at our budget workshop.
yeah, I we've got like 10 days, right? Yeah. Okay. So this is just to help us
pay for the new building. That's correct. Okay.
all right. I'll make a motion to do resolution 2025 dash 31 authorizing
the submission of an application to the racp grant program
for the new public works facility. I'll second that. I have a motion
and a second. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Anyone
opposed? Thank you. Alright. Manager and
department head reports. Sue has a, she's here
an actual video. I'm sorry. Is that an actual video? No, it doesn't look like one
though. . I didn't know if I had to press plug. I'm not that much fun.
um, well we talked a lot about parks today, so I'm gonna show
the other side of my department and show a little bit of recreation. Um,
thank you jeff. So I wanted to give you a little bit of our past.
um, we ran through summer camps this year. I just wanted to give you some of
the stats. We had 15 camps overall this summer, 10 half
day, the rest full day. Um, with the hard work from bob, our recreation
and camp coordinator, as well as melissa, our program coordinator in our new canva
pro. Um, all their efforts paid off 'cause 95% of our camps were
full or at max capacity. Many of them also had a wait list, which
was very encouraging for our upcoming season. I'm sorry. Thank
you. And goodnight. Thank you, sir. Thank you all.
um, so we started our summer camp off with our camp blackrock and a couple of our
specialty camps and then ended our season out with our emergency service academy.
summer also didn't end here. We had our broad belt classic. This was our car
show. Um, the rain really hit us hard this spring and summer.
um, majority of our things were rained. Um, we
so came out hard that day. We had 50 plus cars, over 150 to
200 spectators, our food trucks, and we had some raffle baskets.
everyone that was there had a great time and hopefully next year we can have some sunny days.
summer concerts also took a pretty hard hit with the rain.
um, it seemed every other wednesday when we had a concert, it rained or thunder stormed.
um, but luckily with the use of the gymnasium over at the
community center, we had majority of our concerts inside. We still had
a good turnout between 75 and a hundred people. Given that we made that decision in the
afternoon of the concert. Um, we did have a couple of our concerts outside.
we did get lucky. Um, we had swifty in the midnights that ended
our summer concert series and we had over a couple hundred people there that night. Um,
we filled up the entire parking area over at anderson. We canceled all activities
that night. Um, so we had a very nice turnout to end out the season.
another rained out event. Um, we were supposed to have music
fest in may and we canceled that and moved it to august.
um, august proved to be a much better date. Um, we had eight bands
that lasted the entire day. We prepared for the heat. We had a water slide
there that day with the share of complications, but it worked out very nicely
and kids were super excited and the parents actually, we noticed more people staying
longer at this music fest than they have before. So, um,
very good success. I have to thank tim williams. He's a local resident that helps gain
all the bands and they're all local. So we're excited to have
music fest in june next year. We're trying to push away from the
spring months. April may tend not to be that great for us, so
move to june. Um, I
don't know why that logo looks so funny, but, um, we're gonna go into
the present. So this weekend is fall fest annual fall festival.
um, last year we had approximately 6,500
people attend our fall fest. That is from 12 to noon. So over the five hour
span, we had a lot of people here, a lot of action. We anticipate
the same thing for this year's fall fest. Um, given that this
is our last year with the use of the large parking lot, um,
we are trying to trend at this location of how we're going to
improvise parking moving forward. We are partnered with valley forge baptist church,
a raider farm for this year to provide parking and shuttles. There will be bus shuttles
available, um, but we are going to continue using quest
this year with golf cart shuttles to get people over to location. But we
are opening some parking on site. We're gonna see how this works this year as a new layout.
so we're gonna see how it goes. Um, but we are going to have to start
thinking outside the box to get 6,000 people on this property that day.
um, but we are very excited. So if anybody is around, we are here, um, this
saturday from 12 to five. And then moving into our future,
we have some things coming up in the fall. We have our dance program.
it's our fifth season. We have over a hundred children that take this program. It's
11 weeks. Um, and we do actually have a full on dance recital
for 'em at the end. They all get costumes. Um, it's a very cute program.
it's come a very long way. Um, we are going forward with a community center open
house on october 3rd that is going to be halloween themed.
um, so if you're interested in coming, we have a lot of activities centralized
around halloween. So if you have a costume, I encourage you to wear it.
um, given our successive summer camp this year, we are going to start doing a schools
out camp. Um, we are going to start with skyhawks
in september, and then we're going to move to our normal staff running
some of the camps in october. And then
moving forward, we have, um, our busy winter as well. So
we have our eds trip in december, our winter wonderland.
um, our light show starts, um, the day after, after thanksgiving.
um, we have swooped the eagle coming to a raider farm that night. Um, so
we're very excited about that. And then we have santa visiting the firehouse
in december and that perhaps up our year so far.
thank you. Thank you, sir. Thank you sir.
um, consultant reports, anything from, uh, any
engineering capital group? Um, if you were down in montclair in the
past couple days, they're doing some more stabilization down there on the fema properties,
so trying to bring those to the end. Okay, great.
um, okay, now
we need to, uh, approve the monthly developer improvement guarantee
reduction list. We just have one item, I'll make the motion.
I make a motion to approve the monthly developer improvement guarantee reduction
list as follows. Item a harfield
release number two in the amount of $3,345,069
and 67 cents. Alright, I have
a motion and a second. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye.
alright, thank you very much. Anyone opposed? Alright.
uh, solicitor report, anything mr. Sch? Solicitor? I have no report this evening.
okay. Supervisor comments? Anybody want make to comment?
alright, slow down. Don't pass the school buses. That's my comment. Alright,
uh, I'll go over this upcoming schedule board supervisors
meeting schedule. September 25th at seven o'clock. We have a budget
workshop, september 30th, another budget workshop. And
october 7th, our third and final budget workshop.
our next regular meeting will be october 20th at 7:00 pm
and then again november 17th at 7:00 pm
uh, planning commission will meet september 17th at 7:00 pm
this wednesday. Agenda items will be comprehensive plan action
items, traffic safety, uh, october 1st
they meet at 7:00 pm the agenda item will be 5 92 south mennonite
road. Uh, spotless car wash
1 8 18 51 east ridge pike. The hassan
road subdivision october 15th,
uh, meeting is canceled.
the reason that's canceled is because of the open space discussion that's
scheduled for that night. Okay, so it says canceled here, but there's
still a meeting that night. Okay. Um, the environmental
environmental advisory or advisory
council, uh, meeting on the 17th is also canceled for the
same reason I assume, to have the open meeting, the open space, uh, referendum
discussion. Yeah. We're gonna move the eac to that night because they're involved with
this process. Okay. Parks and rec committee meets, uh, october 8th
and 6:00 pm municipal authority meets, uh, october 2nd
at 7:00 pm zoning hearing board, uh, has no pending
applications and no upcoming meetings scheduled. We did just get one today just for
full disclosure. Okay. So we have, they no, we have nothing.
so we, we did get an application today. If you're interested, keep your eyes
on, on the, uh, website open space render refer
referendum information session october 15th at 7:00 pm
and this weekend, saturday community fall fest. September 20th.
five. Uh, 12 to five right here on this campus. It's a lot of fun. Uh,
so everybody come out for that and, uh, we're done. And I'll
entertain a motion to adjourn. I make a motion to adjourn.
second, do we have a motion to second for adjourn?