[0:00] Guys ready. Alright. I'd like to call
[0:04] to order this, uh, regular meeting over the upper providence board of supervisors
[0:08] monday, september 15th, 2025. And, uh, if
[0:12] everyone would rise as they're able and join me in the pledge of allegiance,
[0:17] pledge allegiance to flag of the united states of america,
[0:21] and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under god,
[0:25] invisible with liberty and justice for all.
[0:32] alright, we have an agenda and uh,
[0:36] I need a motion to approve. I'll make a motion to
[0:40] approve the september 15th, 2025 board of supervisors regular meeting
[0:44] agenda. I'll second. Alright, I'm a motion to second. All those in
[0:49] favor say aye. A aye. Anyone opposed? Thank you.
[0:53] alright. And now we have a special presentation
[0:58] and a recognition of our township solicitor for many years.
[1:03] sure. I'll turn it over to tim deperman.
[1:20] I don't think I get down here very much, but, um, joe, on behalf
[1:24] of the staff and behalf of the board members, um, just wanted
[1:29] to set the stage on, uh, going back to 2015 when I first
[1:33] started shortly after you, um, uh, took over from ed cappel.
[1:37] um, you've been, uh, a valuable solicitor. I've been in the profession
[1:41] for 35 years, and you by far are the best solicitor I've
[1:45] had. And one of the nice things, uh, that I, I would like to, well,
[1:50] everybody knows that you're one of the best, uh, one of the best tributes
[1:54] is your ability to protect us from ourselves and say things that we
[1:58] don't always agree with. But, um, I want to, uh, thank you,
[2:02] uh, for all your years of service. Thank you, tim. I appreciate it. Thank you.
[2:07] just wanna say thank you. Always appreciate working with you and the advice you provided over the years.
[2:11] uh, glad to have you, uh, as a resident during your tenure with the township, uh, and in the future.
[2:15] and we'd love to have you in the planning commissioner zoning, hearing board . We, if the board will, we'll agree
[2:19] to that in that capacity. But thank you very much .
[2:23] we, we didn't say we're gonna punish him. Recognize joe. I want to thank you for
[2:28] your, your years of service, faithful service, loyal service to this township.
[2:32] I don't know, people maybe don't understand if you, if you don't, not from pennsylvania, but
[2:36] so much responsibility is driven down to the local municipalities and the
[2:40] role of municipal, uh, law. The practice of it is critical in
[2:44] the state. Maybe we would grind to a halt without municipal attorneys and good ones to
[2:48] represent us. So thank you so much, joe. Appreciate it. Appreciate it.
[2:53] alright. My turn. Bill, I, I could say a lot about joe. I know joe, I knew joe
[2:57] way before he was even a solicitor here. Um, our boys played, uh, sports
[3:02] together at spring court, so I've known him for years before. So it was comforting when
[3:06] I won supervisor that joe was here and I go to joe and be like, what do you
[3:10] think as a resident? Take off your lawyer hat like on a sunday when I was calm and
[3:14] not working my other job. So, always appreciated that. And not only
[3:18] do planning commission, I think I signed up his wife kim, for something too. You're not getting out it
[3:23] either. . Thank you, ma. Yeah, you're welcome.
[3:27] we good joe. As a part of, as a part of course of all, you're not
[3:31] going anywhere 'cause you're still resident, joe, and we already have you slate for planning commission.
[3:38] so, um, it seems to be a theme. Um, helene and I put
[3:42] our heads together trying to see what we, we would, um, like to give you, and we know that you're a traveler, even
[3:47] kim are travelers. So we got together, it's called a travel book, and it's,
[3:51] um, uh, authored from various people. I think every single country is in here. There's
[3:55] some countries I don't think I'd want to visit , but, um,
[3:59] this is for, for you. Thank you so much. Thank you.
[4:08] fantastic. Thank you so much, brian. Thank you. Thank you everybody.
[4:12] now you can leave. Well, you know, there's one thing I've never been able to say in 40 years of doing
[4:16] this, but now I can say I won't be staying for the rest of the meeting. ,
[4:22] thank you very much. I you shall I get a photo with you, everybody? Sure. Yeah.
[4:41] thank you. Thank you. Thanks everybody. Enjoy.
[5:16] now, uh, we're gonna have a presentation from our township manager on the
[5:20] upcoming open space referendum, which will be on the ballot on november 4th. And,
[5:24] uh, this is an informational session, so tim's gonna give a little presentation,
[5:29] and then afterwards we're gonna have a short q and a please, informational
[5:33] questions only. We just want to get out to the public what this is
[5:37] and give you a chance to think about it before you cast your vote on november 4th.
[5:43] thank you, mr. Chairman. Um, this, uh, presentation is,
[5:47] uh, we we're trying to time this at the september meeting because, um, we know that
[5:51] mail-in ballots are gonna be going out and we have a much more thorough
[5:55] public information session that we're gonna do on october 15th.
[5:59] purpose of tonight is to get this on the public record and, um,
[6:04] um, relax the rules a little bit on public comment. Um, well and certainly
[6:08] entertain any questions from the audience because there's a lot of, um, questions
[6:12] that we've received on, you know, what is open, open space is a, a very,
[6:16] uh, um, um, term that can mean many things. And so I want
[6:20] to go over very briefly on some of the, um, common, uh,
[6:25] things that we've, uh, some of the questions we received and wanted to
[6:29] start out. Um, first, uh, just to, um, just say that this ballot initiative
[6:33] is, um, uh, on november 4th, 2025. Um,
[6:38] and it will be, uh, part of the, uh, general election
[6:42] this year. So jeff, if you go through, uh, so the agenda tonight,
[6:46] I'm going to try to keep it brief. Uh, we talk a little bit about the referendum purpose,
[6:51] the, um, the engagement of natural lands. Uh, that's
[6:55] the professional organization that we contracted with public,
[7:00] uh, comment opportunities, talk a little bit about the tax impact on
[7:04] residents if once the refer, if the referendum is approved, um, the
[7:08] use of the tax funds, uh, the frequently asked questions, and then we'll have
[7:12] some concluding remarks. So, um, first of all is,
[7:16] uh, the referendum purpose. And the question is why now? Uh, a couple of main reasons
[7:21] is to engage the community in decision making, pro processes,
[7:25] uh, to promote transparency and accountability and govern and,
[7:29] and governance, uh, to engage voters to elicit their feedback,
[7:33] um, to help mitigate the strain on township infrastructure. And,
[7:37] uh, to help bend the cost curve on the impacts of municipal and school district
[7:42] services.
[7:46] um, the, the upper providence township board enlisted the
[7:50] natural lands organization for expertise on the
[7:54] open, uh, open space ballot question. Natural lands is a
[7:58] 5 0 1 c3 nonprofit organization focusing on land
[8:02] conservation in eastern pennsylvania and southern new jersey.
[8:07] they manage, uh, 43 nature preserves, covering nearly 24,000
[8:11] acres and hold about 494 conservation easements
[8:16] on another 20 thou 28,000 acres. Uh, natural lands
[8:20] also provides open space financing, acquisition services and updates
[8:25] to the township's open space opportunities map. And that is viewable
[8:29] on the township's, uh, website. We do have a slide later tonight.
[8:36] um, how this new levy, uh, how
[8:40] this new levy affects the average resident, uh, depends
[8:44] on a combination of earned income tax and or their
[8:48] home assessed valuation. Uh, natural lands recommended
[8:53] and the board of supervisors adopted what we call a blended tax formula, uh,
[8:57] which would raise the township's earned income tax from 1% to 1.06%,
[9:03] and the real estate tax from 2.75 to 3.25
[9:07] mills. This ensures both property owners and workers contribute
[9:12] fairly to the open space tax
[9:16] for perspective. And this is, uh, we, we tried to find
[9:20] a very simple calculator, uh, to, for people to use, uh, because
[9:25] everybody's property tax, uh, assessments on their homes differ.
[9:29] but, uh, for, for a perspective, the the average assessed
[9:33] home in upper providence is around $500,000. Um,
[9:37] and to ca to calculate the open space tax, one would need to
[9:41] apply the following calculator. You, you have $500,000 if
[9:46] a proposed tax increase of 0.50 mills, um, not that's
[9:50] been spelled in my o list calculation would be 500,000
[9:54] divided by a thousand. Um, that gives you the millage number
[9:58] times 0.50, and that would be an estimated tax increase of
[10:03] annual tax increase of $250, $250. That's for a home
[10:07] that has an assessed valuation of 500,000. As you know, some homes
[10:11] are less than that, some homes are more than that. So if it, um, if
[10:15] you want to know what, how it will impact you, you would need to use this tax calculator.
[10:20] any questions we would encourage people to call the township, uh, offices. We'd be happy to
[10:24] help you. The next one would be on the, um, earned income tax.
[10:29] uh, calculate earned income tax, uh, calculator
[10:33] for perspective, the average earned income in upper providence around 141,771.
[10:40] to calculate the open space tax, one would need to apply the following calculator,
[10:44] 1 41 7 7 6 times 0.06
[10:48] of 1%. That's a calculation of around $85,
[10:52] uh, annually. Uh, for the eit,
[10:57] um, how can the tax be used? Uh, um, is often thought
[11:01] that an open space levee can only be used to buy land, but that is
[11:06] incorrect. The natural lands trust and the township legal counsel
[11:10] have ensured that the ballot question allows flexible use of the funds within
[11:14] state law. Funds may be used for any of the following categories.
[11:18] uh, land acquisition park and trail development, uh, habitat
[11:22] restoration, maintenance and stewardship and planning administration.
[11:27] I'm gonna go a little bit more detail on each of those items as far as land acquisition.
[11:32] land acquisition refers to the acquiring land, or conservation is
[11:36] easements from willing sellers to preserve natural areas, agricultural
[11:41] lands, and woodlands. Local funding is frequently supplemented,
[11:45] uh, with state and federal grants to, uh, maximize the amount of protected
[11:50] open space per dollar expended
[11:57] some of the frequently, uh, asked questions. Um, uh,
[12:02] go on to the next one. Um,
[12:08] parks and trail, uh, parks and trail development also refers to the planning of new parts,
[12:13] um, extending trails and improving access to, to natural areas.
[12:17] that's one of the areas. Habitat restoration,
[12:21] um, refers to the restoring of wetlands streams and,
[12:26] uh, crucial habitats. Um, planning administration,
[12:32] did I skip under maintenance and stewardship. Maintenance and stewardship,
[12:36] uh, refers to the long-term care and management of the
[12:40] preserved lands, um, including invasive species control and trail upkeep.
[12:45] up to 25% of the funds accumulated balance from
[12:49] the referendum authorized tax may be used to develop
[12:54] improved design engineer and maintain open space property.
[12:59] talk a little bit about the planning and administration. This would cover the cost
[13:03] associating with identifying priority preservation areas, uh, conducting
[13:07] appraisals and managing the open space program.
[13:13] um, I'm gonna move in now to some of the frequently asked questions that
[13:17] we received. Uh, can the funds be used for, uh, road repairs
[13:21] or other township expenses? The answer to that is no. State law
[13:26] mandates that funds be used only for open space preservation
[13:30] and related projects, uh, not for services like road maintenance police
[13:35] or general administration. Another
[13:39] question that we receive is, will the township seize private property with this money?
[13:44] um, in other words, we found a nice piece of open space, but we don't have a willing
[13:48] seller. Could we use eminent domain to purchase that? The answer to that
[13:52] is no. All and acquisitions will be conducted with willing sellers.
[13:57] uh, the township will not employ eminent domain to acquire properties for open
[14:01] space. This program state law prohibits municipalities
[14:05] from involuntarily condemning land for open space purposes.
[14:10] another faq that we get is what kind of open space are we talking about?
[14:14] this can include various, um, spaces such as farmland,
[14:19] woodlands, wetlands, stream corridor, stream corridors,
[14:23] uh, historical landscapes and areas for passive,
[14:28] passive recreation such as walking trails, natural parks,
[14:32] and community gardens. It also focuses on preserving ecological value
[14:36] and providing community benefits. What will the funding
[14:41] be used for
[14:46] purchasing flood, uh, purchasing flood prone properties, uh,
[14:51] with the help of federal funds, especially along the chuco river.
[14:55] uh, it, it would, uh, prevent further flood damage, restore the floodplain
[14:59] and increase rec, increase recreational access to the river,
[15:04] uh, purchasing conservation easements, often referred
[15:08] to as development rights or conservation easements on private
[15:13] lands to, uh, prevent development on working farms, uh,
[15:17] wildlife habitats and other ity of the natural recreation areas.
[15:22] um, could be used for also the purchasing trail rights
[15:26] away to link and or expand the townships publicly accessible trail
[15:30] system. And finally, the purchasing open land
[15:34] were appropriate for active, uh, recreation, such as, such
[15:38] as . Another faq
[15:42] is what will the project be selected? How will the project be
[15:47] selected in a transparent and fair manner? Project selection
[15:51] will adhere to the open space recreation
[15:56] and environmental resources plan, and this would be, they would receive
[16:00] it, uh, receiving approval from the board of supervisors
[16:04] and the montgomery county, uh, plan, commission, and appointed committee
[16:09] will evaluate, rank and recommend projects emphasizing lands
[16:13] with ecological significance, links to preserved areas,
[16:17] public accessibility, or those under development pressure.
[16:21] um, and any case, if we find an, uh, a valid
[16:26] piece of parcel parcel, the township must conduct a public hearing before acquiring
[16:31] any property. Providing an opportunity for residents to present
[16:35] their testimonies on acquisitions financed by the open space tax transparency
[16:39] and public engagement are critical.
[16:44] uh, can these open space funds be combined with other funding sources? Yes,
[16:49] then that's a resounding yes. Open space tax funds can be combined
[16:54] and are almost always combined with county, state, and federal
[16:58] grants for the acquisition of development of new open spaces. Very
[17:02] seldom do we not move forward with any type of project
[17:07] without some grant, um, assistance. Um, many of
[17:11] these grants, particularly from the pennsylvania's, uh, department of conservation
[17:15] and natural resources, require matching funds where the grant covers
[17:19] part of the cost and the municipality provides the remaining amount.
[17:25] another question that we received is, why does the township need a special open space
[17:29] tax when we already have money from developers for parks?
[17:34] um, and, you know, the park impact fee that we've had for many years from developers
[17:38] is a one time charge, um, on new residential subdivisions. Um,
[17:43] as our township is now over 95% developed, uh, this fee will yield
[17:47] minimum returns in future years. Uh, and open space techs
[17:51] will provide a dedicated ongoing funding source to preserve remaining
[17:56] undeveloped parcels and maintain our community's character,
[18:00] uh, for future generations. Just to drill down, uh, on that for
[18:04] a little bit, um, we currently have, um, putting our, putting
[18:08] our finance director little bit on the spot. I think we have plus or minus about $2 million
[18:13] in the parks and open space fund, give or take a few dollars. People
[18:17] say that's a lot of money, but you've gotta keep this in context. Um,
[18:21] can you move under the demand? You gotta keep this in context. This
[18:26] is kind of the open space priorities map, um, by count,
[18:30] and you can correct me, jeff, 'cause I asked you this earlier today, by count we have about
[18:34] 1,390 acres left of undeveloped property.
[18:38] and when you apply that based on the assessed value with common level, with a common level
[18:42] ratio, if we, if money was no object, and we could just write a check for
[18:46] anything that, that estimated value is around a hundred, uh, probably 150 million,
[18:51] $150.5 million is the assessed. It's
[18:55] probably the value of a lot of that money. And that's based on that formula.
[19:00] some property may be more valuable than that, but I think that's the number
[19:04] that we want to keep in perspective. Um, and that is a, uh,
[19:09] for a sea fee simple purchase. Um, another one, um, if you can move
[19:13] on to the next slide. This is an area of all of our floodplains,
[19:17] as you know. Uh, hurricane ida, um, opened all
[19:21] of our eyes and some of the dangers to some of the structures down in our, down
[19:26] in the floodplain. Brian, you can correct me on this statistic, but I think
[19:30] of a hundred, 100 of the 103 s and
[19:34] the floodplain are in montclair and poor providence. And this is a
[19:38] attached is an arrow image showing the area in which the hundred, uh, properties
[19:42] are located. Uh, again, if we apply the, the formula as far
[19:46] as what those properties are valued, that comes to close to 38 to $40 million.
[19:51] am I correct? So, so that's 38 million in addition to the 150 million
[19:55] of valuation of open property that we have.
[20:00] um, so when you think of $2 million, that's really, that $2 million is a
[20:04] finite resource. What we're looking at is creating a, a small steady annual
[20:08] income where we as if once properties become available or
[20:12] we find some other willing sellers, we'll have some avenues to, um,
[20:17] kind of react proactively to some of that. Um, one last,
[20:21] uh, one other, uh, o uh, frequently asked question is, what will prevent the open space
[20:25] revenue from being used for other purposes? And
[20:29] mr. Solicitor, you can chime in on some of this, but I think pennsylvania act 1 53 mandates
[20:34] that open space funds must be only used for preserving open spaces.
[20:38] a portion of the funds can maintain properties bought with these funds
[20:42] and the funds will be recorded in a separate audible open space account
[20:47] in the township's financial records. That concludes
[20:51] my faq. Um, there may be some others, but, um,
[20:55] I also wanna tell everybody to save this date. It's october 15th.
[20:59] that will be our next open space public information. You, this one will
[21:03] be facilitated by our consultant, the natural land trust. I think we're gonna have
[21:07] some speakers that meeting, um, to go into more depth
[21:12] that will also be advertised. Tonight's purpose is just to try to set the
[21:16] record straight on what, uh, funds can be used for and
[21:20] try to answer some of the faqs that we've gotten. Cheryl, I think we
[21:24] have, um, some, some handouts, that we put in the back. So
[21:28] if the people would like to leave, they could welcome them to get a copy. And,
[21:33] um, mr. Chairman, the last slide is, uh,
[21:37] questions from the floor. That's questions from the supervisors or anybody from the
[21:41] audience. I would like to ask questions. I'll ask the first question. ,
[21:46] my understanding is the township would not be able to purchase property
[21:51] in excess of the assessed value of that property, right. Appraised value.
[21:55] am I right? Appraised value. Appraised value, correct.
[22:00] exactly. We talked about this before. We wanted to fill in
[22:04] anything that was missing. Is there anything missing? Any information you want?
[22:08] um, I, I, I think that I would just add to kind of follow up on
[22:12] what tim has been talking about is that, um, you know, if
[22:16] you're seeing a lot of development going on in the township, one of the ways that you
[22:20] can maybe get some more open space or keep some of those larger developments
[22:25] from building up density is by purchasing conservation
[22:29] easements or purchasing property. You can purchase property and then put an easement
[22:33] on it and then sell the property for some of the purposes can be continue to be farmed
[22:37] or, you know, it can be just a single family home, but maybe
[22:42] preserve the other acreage. Um, so I, I think that that's, uh, an important
[22:46] aspect of the proposal that that should
[22:50] be remembered. And was it even as
[22:54] development does happen that you could purchase some of the unit
[22:59] with the money? Could you do that? Like say, okay, instead of 155
[23:03] units, let's do whatever we would purchase that? Absolutely. If
[23:07] you, if you have a, a, a willing seller, if you have a developer that has a project
[23:11] and you say, look, we're willing to buy a conservation
[23:16] easement on from you. We'll buy some good development rights off of the project and part,
[23:20] you know, we, we'll buy x number of units and it will reduce the density and create
[23:24] a, a park and an open space area next to the development that, um, you know,
[23:28] the, the whole town should be.
[23:34] the only other thing I'd like to see maybe at the october meeting is the actual
[23:38] verbiage. It's gonna be on the ballot. What does that, unless we have it, I
[23:42] actually have it. I don't have it on the screen, but I can,
[23:47] and I'll just weigh that the verbiage that we have on the ballot is dictated by
[23:51] statute. So the statute is very precise in how they say
[23:55] you have to load the ballot initiative. You have to say, you know, do you favor the
[23:59] imposition of increase in and then the type of tax, what the percentage
[24:03] is gonna be. Um, and then for what purposes?
[24:08] so the, the draft of the referendum as we have it in the
[24:12] ordinance that the board adopted specifically is written so that
[24:16] the purposes are as broad as is permitted under the law. So that if, if this were
[24:20] to be adopted, it wouldn't be, um, he wouldn't really be hemmed
[24:24] in, in terms of what you could do. So that's the way, the reason it's written, the way it's written
[24:29] in, in legal, unfortunately. I'll let, uh, jeff is putting it up on the
[24:33] screen from the,
[24:39] if anyone else from the republic has a question, you can come forward to the, to the
[24:43] lectern and uh, state your name and ask it. This is not in place of, we're
[24:47] still gonna do regular public comment after this, so I'll be up twice. . There
[24:51] you go. Hi, kristen troutman 1320 blackrock road.
[24:55] um, my first question is, if this does pass
[25:00] when people vote in november, is there gonna be verbiage in
[25:04] the resolution or ordinance stating that monies
[25:08] used to purchase open space means it will be open space in perpetuity
[25:13] that the township can never sell it to, say, generate revenue for
[25:17] something? Because I saw on the agenda tonight, number nine, I think
[25:21] it is, is there's some township open space that's potentially gonna be
[25:26] sold. So it's, I'm questioning if we're gonna be taxed to
[25:30] pay for open space, will it stay open space forever
[25:34] or will it, if the township comes upon hard times when developers are no longer
[25:38] developing, um, will that then get sold
[25:42] like parkhouse? So there are restrictions in,
[25:47] in terms of how the township can dispose of any property that it requires and how
[25:51] it goes about doing that as wade in into that fact. Um, you know,
[25:55] an easement would be something if a development easement
[25:59] would be something that a, you know, the township could only
[26:04] dispose of if they went to court and convinced the, the orphans court that they could do
[26:08] it and it would still serve the purpose that it was intended. So it would be very,
[26:13] very difficult to ever convey. I I, I can't say that
[26:17] in perpetuity forever. It would never be disposed of or
[26:21] sold or anything. 'cause there are a lot of different variables that go into it. But if
[26:25] that's the purpose that it's being bought for, that's the purpose. It needs to be useful. Okay. 'cause I know what
[26:29] the county ag preservation program that's in perpetuity, so
[26:34] I don't understand why the township couldn't also have something like that. So,
[26:38] um, even the, even the ag program, there are ways to do
[26:42] it with the agreement of the program. There are ways to do
[26:46] it. It's just, it's it's not forever.
[26:50] okay. My next question is, how many parcels of
[26:55] open space does the township own? Does anybody know?
[26:59] we own around 500 acres. I, I'm sorry, I don't know the exact number of parcels off the top of my head, but
[27:03] it's around 500 acres. Okay. Because I want people to know that for every parcel
[27:07] that gets acquired for open space, it comes off the tax rolls, which
[27:11] then means that the school taxes go up because that's less property owners paying
[27:16] into school tax. And when you show the tax for the open space,
[27:21] $250 or $85, that's
[27:25] just for open space. We all know our taxes go up every year for the school district
[27:29] for emergency services, for everything. So, um,
[27:34] I want people to know that if this does pass and they get their tax bill next year,
[27:38] it's not just gonna be $250 more. 'cause everything does go
[27:42] up. So thank you. Thank
[27:46] you. Can I just add, if
[27:50] we develop and more people move in, we could also have increase because people
[27:55] are moving in and we need more emergency service and
[27:59] we could have two or three more powerpoints. So both of those things could be,
[28:03] you know, true. Right? Yeah, we could add more, uh, powerpoint
[28:07] slides on the cost of services. But I'll, maybe I'll use the school district as an example.
[28:11] for every residential unit, I think we have an average
[28:16] multiplier of what, 2.5 and maybe off of this 2.5
[28:20] students. And if, you know, the, uh, per pupil expenditure, uh, in,
[28:24] in spring forward, I think is around nine or 10, nine or $10,000. I can
[28:28] guarantee you that we don't one, the average, uh, residential unit does not
[28:32] generate that amount of, uh, tax to cover,
[28:36] um, to cover the cost of educating a child. So there
[28:40] is a net loss, uh, when you have, when, when you do a residential
[28:45] unit. That's why we try to, when we do planning, we try to have a nice, uh, diverse
[28:50] base of commercial, industrial and industrial. So you kind
[28:54] of factors and balances that. Thank you.
[29:04] victoria schwartz, 2 48 baxter drive, phoenixville. Um,
[29:08] I actually have kind of two questions, but to tag along on, um,
[29:13] the, the taxes and the increases in taxes, you're saying that essentially
[29:17] we can have a 250 and then on top of that 850, which equates to $350,
[29:23] is that per household? Is that per person? What's it's based on the average,
[29:27] uh, that those, you wanna go back to those, um, two calculators.
[29:32] it's based on what the average assessed valuation is. You have to take your own
[29:37] personal situation and apply it to the calculator to come up with your own tax
[29:41] bill. 'cause everybody has their own assessment. Sure. Um, everybody, uh,
[29:45] some people may not have a, uh, an earned income through a job in the
[29:49] township. You may mm-hmm . You may have un income under unearned income
[29:53] is not taxed. What about we're, we're trying to look at that. We're trying to,
[29:57] the best way to explain this is looking at the average of what the average,
[30:02] uh, assessment valuation for a home and the average income. So people make
[30:06] more or less than that. Now, is that based on the new assessment meaning a, a newer assessment
[30:10] or are we gonna have our homes reassessed or the existing assessments? Existing assessments. Okay.
[30:15] so then second of all, what about people with fixed incomes or even single incomes
[30:19] that maybe don't make 140? I know, I know that's kind of just a range based
[30:23] upon income. So how does that equate to people? So for instance, myself,
[30:28] um, so would I be looking at, you know, even if my existing, would
[30:32] I be looking at, you know, an additional 350 on top of my existing taxes already,
[30:37] just to kind of get an, depends what your earned income is and what your assessment. Okay.
[30:41] so it is based upon earned income as well. You take that into consideration. 'cause right now the earned income
[30:46] formula. That's correct. Okay. So 'cause right now it's 1% that were being taxed.
[30:50] am I correct in that? Okay. So based upon that there's a lot of people
[30:54] with fixed incomes. So I just guess, um, I guess my asking question
[30:58] is, do we need to flush that out a little bit more? Have that, I mean, I know you guys tried to do a good job in,
[31:02] in showcasing this. Um, if I could clarify that. I think fixed income,
[31:07] if you, if you're implying social security, yes, people
[31:11] retired social security, anybody on fixed income would not be, would not
[31:15] be, uh, subjected to the it tax because that's not her account. Okay.
[31:20] all right. So I just think that if we can flush that out a little bit more, especially on property taxes.
[31:24] 'cause as we know, everything does go up and, you know, um, sewers
[31:28] gone up. Definitely school taxes have gone up and I used to be able
[31:32] to, you know, I still can't afford my house for right now, but how much longer, you know, I'm, again, I'm
[31:36] single. So, and I've worked really hard to own a home and not just myself, but there's a
[31:40] lot of other people who are older who've worked really hard their whole entire lives and
[31:44] their taxes are being taxed out. Um, so again, I I understand the
[31:49] purpose of, of the tax. Um, it's just that it is concerning
[31:53] in terms of that. And then also, um, trying to have, find the breakdown in what exactly
[31:57] it could be used for. Um, the next question is, um, this is kind of like
[32:02] why, why now? Why are we looking at this now? Why was this not looked at before? And
[32:06] why did not we create a fund before, um, to actually have open
[32:10] space, you know, five, 10 years ago? Why is it now?
[32:14] I think that was one of the faqs that we addressed. Did I, do you wanna go back
[32:18] to that? Forgive me if you could just kind of clarify that and I, again, I apologize for
[32:22] asking a question that maybe already covered. I can't,
[32:26] um, speak for prior boards. I mean, I mean, in a perfect world, should
[32:30] we have had enough space tax 20? I mean, you can be the judge of that. I've only been here for
[32:34] 10 years. I'm not here to five. The
[32:39] point is, I think there's a perception that you bring in a lot of money from developers
[32:43] that those, those funds that we get are one time resources. Once
[32:47] they're spent for done. Well then I guess here's my question then. If we anticipate that, maybe
[32:51] this might be a tag on that question, why are developers not charged a little bit of a higher percent
[32:56] anticipating? Because once they come in, they develop, they're making lots of money, millions
[33:00] and millions and millions of dollars. And then also businesses. So
[33:04] why are they not held a little bit more accountable to this pretty, help me here,
[33:08] but I think the development the highest per, per home units.
[33:14] but it's a, if you look at it, it might be like, is it one time fee or is it something that we could,
[33:18] and again, I'm not, you know, I'm just trying to understand how all this works
[33:24] and it's, it's ultimately, you know, we're, we're getting taxed continually, continually,
[33:28] which is understandable. That's the way of life. Everything's taxed. Um, so what's
[33:32] to say once they come in, they make their money, they go out. Yes, they pay heavy fee. But
[33:36] it almost seems like every time a new development's built, everything goes up.
[33:40] and again, the taxes shared amongst the, amongst the rest of
[33:44] us, obviously school taxes and so forth. I mean, people are literally starting to get tax out of their
[33:49] homes, especially if retired. Um, that's a concern moving forward.
[33:53] not that we don't have some great ideas about trying to, you know, figure out a way
[33:57] that we have to live as a community and work as a community and grow as a community. But
[34:01] I think that's a big concern. People are looking to have to sell their homes now because every
[34:06] time taxes go up, people start, you know, they cannot afford it. And so that's a big concern
[34:11] just in general. So I just wanna say, so, um, I was
[34:15] on the supervisors and ko to have this referendum because since joining
[34:19] the board, I've heard like a lot of residents come and discuss, you know,
[34:23] how the development is impacting them. And since we don't have a lot of reserves
[34:27] to buy open space, this is one of the only ways that we can
[34:32] fight the development and get, get those rights. And so it's the choice to the
[34:36] township, right? You can vote yes or no, but yes, you pay more taxes,
[34:40] but you get the option to buy a hand and hopefully minimize the development impact. So
[34:44] I think, and I understand, I get the whole understanding and the, the
[34:49] resolution of trying to come up with a solution, right? That makes sense. That we're trying to, as a township, trying
[34:53] to figure out a, an option that we have to preserve that. 'cause yes, everyone is
[34:57] complaining about not having open space. So I appreciate that. I think it's just
[35:01] still, you know, again, there's a lot of questions and, and we definitely appreciate you guys trying to bring this.
[35:05] so maybe by the time october comes around, we can flush out, you know, maybe a little bit
[35:09] further some of these other questions because a lot of people that are looking for that
[35:14] is, you know, again, it's gonna be, what is it for how much taxes?
[35:18] and then that's a state that those taxes can go up at any point in time. I mean that,
[35:22] again, taxes go up, we get that that's life, but what percentage
[35:26] do they continually go up? And that's, I think the thing that, you know, there is a concern generally
[35:31] in that public, especially with people in fixed incomes. And I know that you said that they'll be mostly
[35:35] okay, but also people who, you know, newer families or the
[35:39] single, you know, people who have been fortunate enough to buy a house. I think it kind of just comes into
[35:43] play and maybe that's something we can flush out a little bit more in october and, and those are all fair, fair
[35:47] points. And I think it's mostly just the choice of the residents if they want this or not. And so that's
[35:52] the best thing we can do. Like you, you tell us do you want to go to by land or not? You
[35:56] know, it's, it's up, up to everyone. Well, I think the more that we can flush out the questions and give a little
[36:00] bit more, you know, just kind of going in, I think that's the whole purpose is just being able to really flush
[36:04] that out, really have all the information. And again, the questions and appreciate
[36:08] the transparency here. I think it's just a matter of really maybe adding a couple
[36:12] things or whatever that may come up. This is why we want to do it in september because
[36:17] we'll have another one on october and then, then by that time we can have add a couple
[36:21] more q and as and stuff like that. So thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thank you.
[36:31] by the way, this property we're selling in item number nine. It's all used equipment.
[36:35] there's nice, there's a nice 2018 dodge ranch,
[36:40] 40,000 miles on there. Morning . Hi, my
[36:44] name is jean corde. I live at 6 36 old state road in
[36:49] upper providence township. My husband and I, we've lived up in this
[36:53] township for over 30 years, and I agree with the
[36:57] past lady is isn't this a good 20 years too late?
[37:01] I agree with why now. And I also wanna comment that
[37:05] I think this open space meeting and question, it's kind of
[37:09] ironic since you have developers sitting right here in the same meeting.
[37:14] but my question is, I saw you saw, um, put up on the map,
[37:19] the open the, um, houses down in montclair
[37:24] that are flooded that you could possibly buy. But
[37:28] my question is, I don't think any developers are gonna wanna buy this anyhow
[37:32] as prime land because it's in a flood war, you know, flood area.
[37:37] so I couldn't see this being developed in some big beautiful community.
[37:41] but the land and you said is still available. How many
[37:46] acres are prime land now? All of a sudden, 20 to 30
[37:50] years later, we're gonna try and save. So how many acres is it? Do you know?
[37:55] it was 1300 acres. That's not very much. Really? The township is
[37:59] 17,000. Right? Uh, I but in time again, I I I can't speak to
[38:03] why we didn't do this. 20. Yeah, I mean 1300 acres ist a
[38:07] lot of land. And I know where I live on old state road,
[38:11] every single field or orchard has been sold
[38:15] and now all of a sudden you're concerned about the wildlife. I have a parade
[38:20] of deer going through my backyard every single day
[38:24] all the time because the township did try and save the wildlife
[38:28] 20 to 30 years ago. So you say you're concerned about the
[38:33] wildlife, but it doesn't really seem like you are, I mean I'm very concerned about
[38:37] wildlife and plants and trees and all that. Um,
[38:42] and the other comment is, if we didn't have all this,
[38:46] we wouldn't need all this revenue for roads and schools and you
[38:50] know, the trails, the trails are beautiful, but somebody's paying for it now.
[38:54] how much more beautiful can they be? I don't know where the money's coming from,
[38:58] I'm sure from my taxes, but I'm just I
[39:02] agree with the last lady is why now? I mean, I I just don't understand it.
[39:06] and actually I'm just alexis of the board every two years and you have the new board.
[39:11] yeah. And that is why it's now. Yeah, but I I just can't believe in
[39:15] at least 20 years. Nobody else thought that you can't control what anyone else. Yeah. Or
[39:19] the board. Okay, well I'm, I'm voting now. I don't want this and I'm
[39:23] disappointed in our, my leaders.
[39:28] alright, any more informational questions? That's what we're looking for.
[39:40] marlene laska 1142 egypt yard.
[39:46] I'm just curious why I,
[39:50] the, the zoning, um,
[39:54] has, it has already been open space. So zoning,
[39:59] so why, why now? Uh,
[40:03] why, why are we,
[40:09] how, how is is the zoning handled today
[40:14] for open space? Right now we have a, um, a
[40:18] a zoning district called open space preservation. That is all of the township
[40:22] property and a select few other properties. Some of the,
[40:26] excuse me, some of the county owned properties, some of the state owned property, those are all zoned
[40:31] open space preservation. Those are already open space properties.
[40:35] if for some reason, like the parkhouse situation, something was to
[40:39] sell, the zoning is very limiting on that. Um, the properties
[40:43] that we are talking about that are represented on this map are
[40:48] probably mostly zoned r one. Um, I can see some that are zoned io
[40:52] two io io one. Um, there's a
[40:56] variety of different zoning. The open space parcels, the undeveloped parcels
[41:00] are not in the open space preservation district. That
[41:04] district is really solely township and municipally
[41:09] owned property. So, so you are saying
[41:13] that potentially, uh,
[41:17] the, you can have a residential community.
[41:23] our, our residential property already, uh, zoned
[41:28] residential. If it's not, if something's not zoned
[41:32] open space preservation, it is probably zoned r one.
[41:36] okay. Maybe r two. That's the current zoning. I mean, there's
[41:41] a debate to be held that if I zone something open space preservation, I'm taking away the
[41:45] property rights of that, of that property. And if I do that, then you as a landowner
[41:49] could come to me and say, you've taken my property rights, you owe me x amount of money for
[41:53] those property rights as an r one property, as an open space
[41:58] preservation property. I don't have the map. I can't get to it real quickly. For the open space
[42:02] preservation zoning district, that is again, township owned and
[42:06] municipally owned property that we put into that open space
[42:10] category. If we are to acquire additional property in the future,
[42:14] whether that's through this ordinance or through another method, we will be putting that
[42:19] property also into the open space preservation. It's a little bit more of an administrative task
[42:23] than a pure zoning task, but that's how we sort of track what is
[42:27] owned as the township. If you look at everything up there, that is a dark green
[42:32] on that map. Okay. I guarantee if you pull up the zoning map, it's gonna
[42:36] show up as, as open space preservation zoning district. And so the township
[42:40] property, the other existed, uh, some other municipal owned property is all
[42:44] in the open space preservation zoning district. And again, these two things are somewhat,
[42:49] somewhat related but really not related. Open space preservation is an act by this board,
[42:54] by the municipal government to open to preserve open space
[42:59] and zoning is just an administrative designation for the property.
[43:04] but, but there are properties that are zoned open space
[43:09] that are owned by the township. That are owned by the township already. Yes. Already.
[43:13] okay. Okay. Yeah, I I think I know what you're talking about.
[43:18] park house was zoned open space. That was a mistake made by the board at
[43:22] the time that was sold by the county. Open space on privately
[43:26] held land has no meaning as far as preservation goes, only
[43:31] on publicly held land. And you can see on the map what
[43:35] we hold. So
[43:44] tim 1 4 1 7 4 7 morgan lane in collegeville.
[43:49] um, so what you're talking about there is the green, the dark green that's
[43:53] already owned. Uh, first off I'd like to say thank you for the informational meetings
[43:57] because, you know, since we moved here in 2016,
[44:02] um, open space has been continually declining. Right?
[44:06] and I think everybody here would agree that if
[44:10] you just asked do you want more open space in upper providence township, most people are
[44:14] gonna say yes. I would say that the signs that we see around
[44:18] vote yes for open space, they're a little bit deceitful because not
[44:22] all of the information is out there. So thank you for to the board for, for
[44:26] holding informational sessions so that we can actually educate
[44:31] the public to get to where we need to go. Chapter two 70
[44:35] of the zoning. Um, so division land, but yes. Right. So the conservation
[44:40] program, so chapter two 70 already restricts,
[44:44] right? How much open space can be when we zone something or we
[44:48] develop on certain land. The question is, isn't there already a restriction
[44:53] that will prevent the entire land from being developed
[44:57] for whatever purpose? There needs to be some open space conservation within that
[45:01] development. The way zoning works, which is chapter 300 zoning,
[45:06] when you come in for a development, when when most residential development comes in, there's
[45:10] anywhere between a 10% to sometimes 50% set aside
[45:14] for open space depending on the district it's in. So there's different districts from r
[45:19] one to r four, right? Village preservation. So there's osr one o
[45:23] sr two, right? R one, r two oh, r three, r four o sr two and osr one
[45:27] are, are, um, they are districts that you can apply. They're
[45:31] still zoned or one, but you can apply osr one to it,
[45:36] osr one, in this case, let's use that. There's like a 75
[45:40] acre minimum that you have to set aside for when you've use that development
[45:44] district, that development option. Um, with, with an
[45:48] r one piece, with just a basic r one piece, there's a 10% set aside of open space.
[45:53] what this program is aiming to do is to purchase
[45:57] all of that. So instead of saying if you have a hundred acre piece and you set aside
[46:01] 75 for open space and you've 25 houses on there
[46:05] for the one acre development, well actually you get the full development. So you, you have
[46:09] the houses on the 25%, you save 75%.
[46:14] we're looking to save through this, the whole thing, all of, so
[46:18] we would be buying the entire parcel. Yes. Turning it back
[46:22] to, to dark green on your map. It, it would become, it would
[46:26] become township owned at that point. And we would not, we can't develop it. We would not be developing
[46:31] it. So we're basically competing to buy
[46:35] property instead of developers buying property. Or that is, that
[46:39] is one drawback to it is yes, we are competing with the developers of the world to buy property. So this
[46:43] is just gonna up the cost between, uh, citizens versus the developers,
[46:47] which it seems like has been the age old battle in this district. I,
[46:51] again, it's the free market. We have to go out as the township in the free market. Now you hope
[46:55] that you have a benevolent farmer, as I call 'em, that
[46:59] someone that wants to say, hey, I don't wanna see my property developed. Let's find a way to make this
[47:04] work. But you as a property owner or or a benevolent
[47:08] farmer as a property owner, have the right to sell their property for whatever they wanna sell it for. We're just
[47:12] out there competing with them at that same, at that same rate. Okay.
[47:16] I'm not saying it's the best option and just say that's the reality of it. Right? So
[47:21] just to clarify, it also wouldn't always have to necessarily be fee simple ownership,
[47:25] which means that you own the entire property and you know, you, you own it outright.
[47:29] you can buy it and essentially go to the benevolent farmer and say, hey,
[47:34] you can stay on your property, you can continue to farm it, you can continue to live on it,
[47:38] but we're gonna buy those development rates. So next time a developer might come and say
[47:42] that they want to put up the townhouse community or something like that and you're in your
[47:46] property, they would say, well, I already sold the development rights to the township. So
[47:50] it's not necessarily always a fee ownership, a fee simple ownership situation.
[47:55] and I wanted to ask a question because what a good topic. We can't
[47:59] go above the assessed value, right? So we're not really in competition with the
[48:03] selves. So. Correct. Can I ask another
[48:08] question? What the assessment would be? I mean, you can pay under, but you
[48:12] can't go over what the assessed value is and the assessed value is gonna be based on what comparable
[48:16] sales have made for comparable land. So did you
[48:20] say before it was the assessed or the appraised value? I may have misspoke. I
[48:25] I do mean the assessed value. The assessed value. No, it's the appraised value. The app app
[48:29] value. Sorry, I used the wrong word. So, so with the appraised value, who is the person
[48:33] that is gonna do the appraisal and is that also open for public? We
[48:37] have public information that shared to the citizens. Because
[48:42] that's a, right, like
[48:46] that should be public information. Correct. Can
[48:50] you guarantee, is it written in the referendum that it will be
[48:55] public information as to who is actually doing the appraisal? It will eventually be
[48:59] public information in the midst of a negotiation for property. Wouldn't
[49:03] have to make it public, but it would eventually be public document that,
[49:07] that they could, that could be released. We do hire an appraisal firm,
[49:12] an independent appraisal firm to do the appraisal. How that's negotiated is
[49:16] up to the develop to the property owner. Our attorney negotiations,
[49:21] I'm being not involved with sale, so right. I just as
[49:25] a concerned citizen, you can see how my concern
[49:29] would be, depending on who's doing the appraisal, they
[49:33] could appraise it for whatever they want. And then the willing seller
[49:37] could be someone else, whoever they want. And then
[49:41] the person that is selling the property is just getting tax
[49:46] diverted citizens taxes to enrich themselves at,
[49:50] at the end of the, you have, you have a valid point, but all we can do is trust in the real estate
[49:54] and the appraisal professionals that we hire. You've done it for years and,
[49:58] and I, I get where you're going and what your point is, but all we can
[50:02] do from a municipal standpoint is trust the appraiser that we use. Now
[50:06] we, is there a petition for appraisal or is it a closed competition
[50:11] that is not open to the public? Is the question and I,
[50:15] an appraisal is done by the appraiser. They, they don't have a public
[50:19] forum to right, but you appoint the appraising company
[50:24] or is there appraisal companies that can compete for
[50:28] who's going to be hired? Um, I do the appraisal generally through
[50:32] the board. The appraisal wouldn't be a bidding process. It's a, it's professional services,
[50:36] so there's no requirement to go out to bid. But I mean, all appraisers are certified.
[50:40] they have state licenses, they are required to, they have ethics
[50:44] requirements, things like that. I mean, any of the appraisers I know would,
[50:49] you know, they it, they would never do anything like that. I
[50:53] mean it's, it's like an engineer falsifying a document to
[50:57] contrary to engineering principles. I mean it's, it's, you have to trust your professionals.
[51:03] okay. You see what I'm, you see what I'm asking? I mean, we've all gotten appraisals
[51:08] done before. What you're asking is basically criminal corruption. So
[51:12] I mean I, we we can't, but that's why I'm asking. It should be. That's why my state first statement
[51:16] was it should be public knowledge. Yes. Because an appraisal would eventually
[51:21] become available to the public in the midst of negotiating
[51:25] a price and doing that. That's not a public document, that's not subject to rights.
[51:29] no law. But when the, when the board would actually move to, uh,
[51:33] to take official action, the appraisal would be publicly available.
[51:38] okay. So after the fact it, it would be subject to
[51:44] rights to know and it would be publicly available information. Correct.
[51:48] okay. Um, so I just wanna make one comment. So you mentioned
[51:53] the sign that you see as they vote. Yes. Those are not township signs. We, we
[51:57] are. No, I agree. I just wanna make sure, because you mention that the signs you guys had out yes. I understand
[52:01] that it's, it's not, this isn't a board project. This is, I just wanted to make sure that everyone's aware that the
[52:05] natasha was not telling anyone how to vote. It is your choice. Okay. Thank you. Correct. Yes.
[52:10] um, you mentioned that, that the funds that were
[52:14] in the, that were in the program, um,
[52:20] so they stay in that program in perpetuity or would they eventually revert
[52:24] to a possible general fund after a certain timeframe?
[52:28] under state law, they cannot go to the general fund. It has to be a special correct. They
[52:32] have to be put in a segregated fund. Certain percentage of them, I think 25% can
[52:36] be used for like maintenance and, uh, development of the
[52:40] properties. But the rest, it has to stay within that segregated fund.
[52:44] okay. Um,
[52:49] and is there any, or was there any consideration to a possible sunset
[52:53] clause of this program? Um,
[52:59] if, if we get to a point that, you know, we, we've
[53:03] raised enough funds that we don't see that it's necessary anymore.
[53:07] like, or hey, if the citizens no longer, like, uh,
[53:12] what, how this is going, uh, that the
[53:16] tax increase will ever go away. Or like most
[53:20] taxes, once you raise the taxes, the taxes are raised forever.
[53:25] so there is no sunset clause in the ordinance that was adopted by the
[53:29] board. If you adopt a referendum, if it passes, it has to be around
[53:33] for a certain number of years before it can be repeal. I think it's five or six years. I'm
[53:38] trying to check the statute, but that's as soon ast that it could be repealed.
[53:42] otherwise it has to be in place for that number of years. Right. But then afterwards
[53:46] it could be repealed. There was no discussion going
[53:50] into this about a sunset clause that would, the ordinance
[53:54] that would put it back up for a vote, the ordinance that was adopted does not have a sunset set.
[54:01] um, okay.
[54:05] that's it. Thank you for talking. Thank you.
[54:10] alright. There's anyone else with an informational question,
[54:14] otherwise we're gonna move on to regular public comments at this time. And,
[54:18] uh, so if you have regular comments, I'd ask you to come forward again to elect her and state your
[54:23] name and, uh, please try to hold your comment to three minutes.
[54:30] okay. Trying to talk best. Um, I know the
[54:34] quest project is on the agenda tonight and I know there's been a lot of, uh,
[54:38] chatter about the historic farmhouse, just like mr.
[54:42] timer's not working. So I'm timing you. I will buzz you. Okay.
[54:47] um, I just wanted to know if anybody here or
[54:51] the developers know anything about the historic farmhouse. Um,
[54:56] 'cause I did some digging, um, handed
[55:00] the pajama in the blue shirt right there. I could
[55:04] . Um, the house,
[55:08] my parents owned the house from 1978 to 1988.
[55:12] um, they bought it from, uh, the griffiths.
[55:17] bob griffith had been a long time township supervisor. Um,
[55:22] and my mother researched it as far back as she could,
[55:26] uh, within the county records. And it dates back
[55:30] to at least 1747, um, which
[55:35] is 58 years before the township was the township. Um,
[55:40] I gave you some pictures. One is of the house, um,
[55:44] the barn. It was a, a large barn. It had two sections that kind of met
[55:48] in the center. And when my parents bought it, uh, there was
[55:52] a lot of rock there. So they had to tear the one, the rear section off, which
[55:57] was towards blackrock park. Um,
[56:01] uh, let's see. Yeah, they sold it in 88 to reland, who then turned it into the quest
[56:06] property. Um, let's see. Um,
[56:12] so considering that it was built sometime probably
[56:16] before 1747, but like I said, we didn't go to philadelphia to,
[56:20] we didn't want to go to philadelphia to look at any more property records. So that makes the
[56:24] center section, which we determined by studying
[56:29] how it was built architecturally, that, that's the oldest section in the house.
[56:33] and then the end section that goes, uh, back towards the skate park
[56:37] was probably the second section built. And the stone park, I mean,
[56:41] it's all stone, but the part closest to the road was probably the third section.
[56:45] um, on the last page I made a copy of and they're not great.
[56:49] um, we metal detected there like around the house and we found
[56:54] a button or what we believe is a button because it's got an edge, it's hollowed
[56:58] out. Um, metal, the metal decayed to
[57:02] a certain extent, but we did a rubbing, which is on there, but the button, uh, dates back
[57:06] to 1780 and it's got like a double-headed eagle,
[57:10] so it looks like a prussian type thing. Um, and we also, while
[57:14] we lived there, found a letter in the attic of the middle section, which is the
[57:19] oldest, um, from the civil war. So
[57:23] it's not in the best of shape either, and I accidentally chopped the bottom of it off, but you can see
[57:27] the date on there. So I just want to share some of the
[57:31] historic farmhouse significance with the township. So, um,
[57:35] so that's about it. Thank you. Thank
[57:39] you, thank you. I'm glad. Don't be preserved.
[57:52] victoria schitz, 2 48 baxter. And this is open form, correct? Just for anything that's
[57:56] on the, the ballot. Okay. Um, I just have a question and, and more of also
[58:00] a statement as well. The sewer bill, I know that's up for discussion and regardless
[58:04] of putting it into real estate taxes, um, I, for one absolutely would prefer
[58:09] to keep it separate as it is. Um, when I started, I've lived here for about,
[58:13] since I've moved back to the area for about 17 years. Um, we
[58:17] used to have it, obviously it was a quarterly, it was $200, now it's
[58:22] 352. Well, it, it raised up to about $152
[58:26] in excess. Um, what's very helpful, especially for people trying to
[58:30] pay their bills and understanding what their usage is, is by rolling it
[58:34] into a real estate tax, we will kind of lose the transparency of it, even though
[58:38] quote unquote have a, a semi, um, itemized, I guess billing statement
[58:43] or however that's supposed to look. Uh, I for one, prefer to keep it separate. This way I understand
[58:47] the, the, um, rules and regulations, if you will, the sewer bill. I can see when
[58:51] it goes up, why it goes up. Again, coming from different households, I know different
[58:56] townships do different things. Phoenixville has it by usage. It might be a flat
[59:00] rate. Um, I went from $50 or you know, if you will, uh,
[59:04] again, 200 bucks. Now it's to a month where, where it is now, it's $88 a
[59:08] month on one person person. Now, that's not to equate that, of course we have
[59:12] families, but, um, it's nice to be able to know exactly what you're paying for when
[59:17] it comes to sewer. So I really would like to see that stay separate.
[59:21] um, and if, and if not, I would like to also have an explanation maybe of why
[59:25] you guys were thinking about rolling it in. 'cause that's one thing I do not know, like what is the purpose
[59:29] of wanting to roll the sewer bill into real estate taxes? So maybe you can enlighten,
[59:33] uh, enlighten me on that and, and what that's about. Um, the second thing, um,
[59:37] that I would like to know about, and again, you can share this, is, um,
[59:42] someone had already asked the questions, but what is, uh, what are the
[59:46] properties that the township are looking to sell? And that's
[59:50] something I'd like to know. Okay. . And then, um, another
[59:54] thing is also township pension plans. I was a little
[59:58] curious as to why that's kind of on the, on the agenda. I mean,
[1:00:02] you know, just curiosity on the that. Um, and then the last one is,
[1:00:07] um, where's the new public works facility located and where's the old one?
[1:00:11] and why do we need to have that kind of transparency in, in order to understand
[1:00:15] where the new one is going and the cost and all that. So those are just a couple of my questions was on the agenda.
[1:00:20] the first one is because we would save money, and so for the township, if we rolled,
[1:00:25] um, if julie took over the, the budget. Okay. So
[1:00:29] I, I don't anything else money because we did that before. Think was important.
[1:00:33] yeah, we, we did that before it was $200, it was $50 a quarter. Now, brenda,
[1:00:38] thanks. Yeah, I don't know anymore. I just put that that's okay. But I, I appreciate that. So if anybody
[1:00:42] else can share within that, or if they have any idea or what that looks like
[1:00:46] and what's the price, how, how will we know the differentiation, all that stuff. We we're
[1:00:50] not gonna vote on it tonight. We tabled it because we need more time to answer all those
[1:00:55] questions. Okay. So at least then you'll, at least you'll have some questions exactly. To know what to answer. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate
[1:00:59] that. Thank you. Thank you. Mm-hmm .
[1:01:14] 15. The phillies are on late tonight. Al zi, 1 28 patriot drive.
[1:01:18] um, comment about quest, then I'll make a comment about
[1:01:22] the open space thing first with quest, um, like everybody else, about two years
[1:01:26] ago, we were shocked to find out that the quest building was sold. And,
[1:01:30] um, initially the reaction of developing it was not
[1:01:35] pleasant. But I can say that over the past couple years, seeing what
[1:01:39] is planned here, it's a unique type of property that
[1:01:44] I think only upper providence can pull off. This isn't being built in limerick. It's
[1:01:48] not being built in lower providence for a reason. Can't handle it. This is still
[1:01:52] the jewel of the, of the montgomery county. So, um,
[1:01:56] it combines, um, commercial, residential tax
[1:02:00] base, um, support. And it's a, it's a well planned
[1:02:05] community. And I told you before, your job's getting harder,
[1:02:09] not easier than when we had it. 'cause you have, you know, ground
[1:02:13] pegs and square holes. So, uh, I know you have other things
[1:02:17] on this agenda, uh, over at, um, across the street at, um,
[1:02:21] the pfizer property. And, um, they're gonna ask you to do other things
[1:02:25] probably. So look at, instead of changing zoning, look at
[1:02:29] little pieces and make your opinion known what you
[1:02:33] want developed and help ms. , you know how many times I said when a developer
[1:02:38] came in with a crummy project, I said, go build it in limerick, right? Where
[1:02:42] they have the social security building. Sorry, sorry, limerick people. But,
[1:02:46] um, but it's true. Um, so, um,
[1:02:50] the, uh, old house that's on the, uh, on the property at quest,
[1:02:55] think you have to look at what can actually happen. We can't have a coffee shop there
[1:02:59] that's not gonna support it. Low providence did a nice job with the cvs
[1:03:03] building. It's a law office. It's a, it's a high end law office. So it's just, just
[1:03:07] think about that. I think you're gonna prove this tonight. Just you can turn
[1:03:11] that building into something. If think it's going to be a bite stop with a coffee
[1:03:15] shop. Not happening. Not realistic. It really, really isn't. So just
[1:03:20] stick out of the box. There was a lot of talk about the school buses last time.
[1:03:24] we had a battle with the school district in 2015 because they wouldn't go into
[1:03:28] the neighborhoods. They're in the neighborhoods in river crest because of the battle
[1:03:32] we had back then. Um, jo and tom deo were very good
[1:03:36] to, um, help the transportation department realize that a school bus won't
[1:03:41] ruin the roads inside the development. So I think, um, the developer
[1:03:45] here probably has a, a decent, um, plan. There's not a chance in the world. The bus
[1:03:49] is gonna go into this development though. But the school district has done a better job
[1:03:54] bringing the buses where they need to be. Um, as far
[1:03:58] as the open space piece, um, we bought a
[1:04:02] lot of property, a lot of property, and we took a lot of heat for
[1:04:07] it. How ironic. Now people are saying,
[1:04:11] why don't you buy more? We did lewis road next to the, uh, seventh grade
[1:04:15] center, bought a lot of property there. Uh, there's a, an old house from 1753
[1:04:20] at the town . And when we did it, there were people in the room behind me here that
[1:04:24] complained. So it's just how things happened. Um,
[1:04:29] my only thought with having a referendum
[1:04:33] is you box yourself in five
[1:04:37] of you can do anything you want, just create something. You don't need a referendum.
[1:04:42] that's why you're elected. 'cause if you, you rely on the public, sometimes
[1:04:46] you're not gonna make 'em happy. So, um, referendums
[1:04:50] box yourself, you box yourself in and you just did. Um, I respect
[1:04:54] what you do and here to support you. Um, but you're
[1:04:59] boxed in now. Um, and one last thing you should notice,
[1:05:03] but we still have the lowest, um, wastewater,
[1:05:07] um, fee. One of lowest of any community around
[1:05:12] here. So you were asking about that back there.
[1:05:16] that's all I have. Thank you very much. Thank you.
[1:05:29] is there anyone else would like to make anyone else like to make public comment?
[1:05:34] alright, we'll move on.
[1:05:41] uh, tonight, we had an executive session just prior to this
[1:05:45] meeting, and we discussed, uh, legal negotiations,
[1:05:50] prior matters, tax selection and pending litigation matters.
[1:05:55] we have a bill list in our packet, uh, for august period. August 1st
[1:06:00] through august 30th. I'll entertain a motion on that.
[1:06:07] I make a motion to approve the august 1st through august 31st, 2025
[1:06:11] bill list in the amount of $1,367,549
[1:06:16] and 40 cents. I second.
[1:06:20] I have a motion and a second. All those in favor say aye. A aye. Any,
[1:06:25] any opposed? Thank you. Alright. Uh,
[1:06:29] we also had, uh, minutes from our august,
[1:06:34] uh, oh, excuse me, minutes from our august 18th meeting in our packet.
[1:06:38] and, uh, if there are no corrections, I'll entertain a motion to approve those. I'll
[1:06:42] make a motion to approve the august 18th, 2025 meeting. Supervisor's, regular meeting
[1:06:47] minutes. I'll second. I have a motion to second. All
[1:06:51] those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Anyone opposed? Thank you.
[1:07:00] we have no public hearings tonight. Uh, first item on
[1:07:04] all business is consider adopting resolution 2025
[1:07:09] dash 28 granting preliminary land development approval for
[1:07:13] the quest redevelopment at, uh, 1201 south collegeville
[1:07:17] road. Okay.
[1:07:30] good evening everyone. Allison zaro on behalf of ht 1201 collegeville,
[1:07:34] llc. Um, this tonight I'm prepared. I got the, the laser pointer
[1:07:39] before I started waving my hands around. Um, I know that the board is very familiar
[1:07:43] with the site. This is our third time here about the preliminary plan.
[1:07:48] um, and we received some good comments from you at the last meeting, primarily
[1:07:52] focused on the residential portion of this project. Um, we've talked about the
[1:07:56] commercial portion, um, on numerous occasions, so I'm not going to go over that again. But
[1:08:00] I do want to highlight some things that we, we changed as a result of your
[1:08:04] comments from the last two meetings. Um, on the residential portion of the
[1:08:08] site, which is the upper portion of this plan, um,
[1:08:13] primarily we were focused on, if you remember the, um,
[1:08:17] the area that was is next to the stone house that, uh, ms. Troutman
[1:08:21] was just talking about. Um, we are retaining that, uh, building on
[1:08:25] the property. And there was concern about eight stacked townhouse
[1:08:29] dwelling units that were in close proximity to that building on
[1:08:33] the prior versions of the plan that we showed you. Um, the, the version you're seeing
[1:08:38] on the screen tonight removes those, um, eight units in proximity to
[1:08:42] the house. It relocates six of those units elsewhere within the
[1:08:46] road network. Oops, I think I just said the wrong thing. No, that was me. Oh, that was you. Okay.
[1:08:51] within the, um, the, the road network that we already have, um,
[1:08:55] and it would drops the total dwelling unit count by two units.
[1:08:59] we also relocated the top lot. If you remember, it was over here on
[1:09:03] the right side of the plan. We've now relocated that to, um, be
[1:09:07] in proximity with the stone house. We feel that that could be a nice amenity
[1:09:12] space overall and put it all together. Um, we've also added a little
[1:09:16] outdoor area, um, which you'll see in the renderings that we have with us tonight,
[1:09:20] um, to create an amenity for the community. The other
[1:09:24] positive that came out of relocating and reconfiguring this is that
[1:09:29] the road connection between the commercial and residential portions had a
[1:09:33] little bit of a funky curve to it originally. We were able to straighten that out on
[1:09:37] this plan, um, and make for a better movement between the two, uh,
[1:09:41] portions of the site. If you recall, there is a stream that runs through the site. And so that's sort of
[1:09:45] our natural break in the property. And then finally, because
[1:09:49] we were able to move these, um, various aspects of the plan
[1:09:53] around, we were able to eliminate retaining walls both in height and
[1:09:57] and length, uh, within proximate proximate proximity,
[1:10:01] I should say, to this a an existing sewer easement on the property. So
[1:10:06] this all resulted in what we think is a positive improvement for this
[1:10:10] plan. The other thing I wanted to mention, and I know it was brought up in
[1:10:14] the comments earlier, is last time we were here, mr. Yeager had raised a concern
[1:10:18] about school buses coming onto the site. We have coordinated with the director of
[1:10:22] transportation for spring ford, um, since we were last here.
[1:10:27] and she said that the school district would be willing to come into this property,
[1:10:31] provided that the hoa signs, a hold harmless agreement, which is how it's
[1:10:35] been handled in river crest and some of the other developments in the area. So that is something that we can
[1:10:39] promulgate upfront as part of this community because we know about it going in.
[1:10:43] so we're willing to do that if for some reason that changes in the future. Um,
[1:10:48] we do believe we have an appropriate area here on the site. Um, if
[1:10:52] you recall the separate entrance to, um, the residential property also
[1:10:56] has, uh, that parking lot right there that would serve as over foot parking, community
[1:11:00] space, et cetera, next to the stone house. And so we do believe there's an appropriate
[1:11:05] location, um, for both the, uh, children and their parents
[1:11:09] to be waiting for the bus if that should be needed. So, um, so those are the
[1:11:13] main, uh, changes that we need to the plan. Um, we do have updated
[1:11:17] renderings. You've seen the commercial renderings before they're in this presentation.
[1:11:22] so, and herb is not with us tonight, so I will not run through them specifically unless
[1:11:26] you have questions. But at the end, we do have a couple of renderings of,
[1:11:31] this is the new, um, view from blackrock at the stone house.
[1:11:35] so you can see what it looks like with the elimination of those units. Um,
[1:11:39] and then I think we have a second slide. Yes. That showed to you, um, the expanded
[1:11:44] amenity area and top lot in proximity to the stone house
[1:11:49] to happen to answer any questions. I do have dave lance groner, um, and our civil
[1:11:53] engineer dennis kirk here with me tonight. Do you think you can make that top
[1:11:58] wall a little bit higher? The top wall wall? Um,
[1:12:02] is there a gray change there already, dennis? Or,
[1:12:08] okay. Yep. We can raise it. Yeah, I, I, it's a good
[1:12:12] point. You wanna make sure that there's like either a protected barrier or something. Yeah. But no, I think this
[1:12:16] is great. I thank you for taking our comments and just consideration. We
[1:12:20] would appreciate it. Um, also, I don't wanna see the sml farmhouse. Do
[1:12:24] you think it'd be good prevent anything like that from happening? Um,
[1:12:28] the loss of the farmhouse, we are proposing to retain it on the plan. Um,
[1:12:32] and you know, I think the ultimate use is a little
[1:12:36] fluid still at this point. Um, I understand people have different opinions about what it
[1:12:41] should be, but I think our, our thought here is that it will serve as some
[1:12:45] sort of community space with that ta log right next door as well as the parking.
[1:12:49] yeah. So would you dedicate money to
[1:12:53] rehabbing? You'd have to, right? Yes. I mean, that was the intent from the beginning, um,
[1:12:57] dave, correct? Yeah. And that is still the intent. Yes, absolutely.
[1:13:01] we, we know it needs some work. So
[1:13:05] thank you for working with us on that. And, um, did you did the
[1:13:10] question, do we have any answers on that? Well, we did look
[1:13:14] at, um, other stacked town home communities in the area. We talked about it originally
[1:13:18] in the context of, um, my client having done development work in the city. But he has talked to
[1:13:22] other developers in the suburbs and none of them have a community dumpster,
[1:13:27] although they're stacked towns still would operate the same way as a traditional
[1:13:31] townhouse community in the sense that you're required to store. And that would
[1:13:35] be part of the hoa docks, your particular, um, trash containers,
[1:13:40] recycling containers within your house, within the garage, pull them out
[1:13:44] on, you know, collection day, take them back in there, wouldn't be sort of scattered,
[1:13:48] um, trash containers all over the community. And certainly we can either do
[1:13:53] that in, you know, one round, two rounds, whatever the township thinks
[1:13:57] is best from that perspective. And ultimately there would be, um,
[1:14:01] the hoa, the board would be responsible for,
[1:14:05] uh, making sure that there's one collector coming into the community, not this sort
[1:14:09] of willy nilly, hey, I picked my own, um,
[1:14:14] provider. Would we be responsible for this?
[1:14:18] no, that would be retained by the hoa board. Yes. The h oa board. The oa board,
[1:14:23] yes. We would not, we would not, we wouldn't wish that on you. .
[1:14:28] I have one more question. So right now, I know the township uses that parking lot for
[1:14:32] our big events. Is there some way we, we had to use like a portion of the
[1:14:36] parking lot for any future communities or anything like that?
[1:14:41] so, um, on the date, I know there's an event coming up. I, I think it's,
[1:14:46] is it this month? I think it's this month. It's this month. So we've agreed
[1:14:50] for that. Um, as far as in the future, it's gonna be dependent on the
[1:14:54] retailers and really what their lease says. Um, if there is flexibility,
[1:14:58] we'll obviously work with the township, but I can't guarantee it. 'cause some retailers want to protect
[1:15:03] their parking so that they cannot people there and shop for the store.
[1:15:07] so each retailer gets a certain number of spaces? Some, yes. Typically.
[1:15:11] are there any extra spaces that are just around that we could, it's again,
[1:15:16] it's just a function of who's gonna be there and who we, you know, is gonna be the end user
[1:15:20] and the space. Everyone has different requirements from a zoning standpoint. They are a little over
[1:15:24] parked. We're definitely over parked. I I mean, I can tell you that we're definitely
[1:15:28] over parked. So if we, again, if we can, we will absolutely help
[1:15:33] for sure. Thank you. Sure.
[1:15:43] there's no other questions. I'll make a
[1:15:47] motion without resolution. 2025 dash 28 granting preliminary land
[1:15:51] development approval for quest redevelopment. 12 0 1 south collegeville
[1:15:56] road. I second. Alright, I have a motion and a second
[1:16:00] to adopt resolution 2025 dash 28 granting preliminary
[1:16:04] land development approval for quest three development 1201 south coto road.
[1:16:08] all those in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed?
[1:16:12] thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks.
[1:16:21] number six was, uh, we were gonna consider enacting ordinance
[1:16:25] six 15 on e-bikes, but we missed an
[1:16:29] advertising deadline. So we're going to table that item
[1:16:33] until, uh, next month. We don't need a motion
[1:16:38] for that, do we? Okay. Alright.
[1:16:42] and now under new business, uh, item number seven, discussion of bridge on
[1:16:46] this is a informational presentation, uh, for potential
[1:16:50] development of 400 r colebrook. Good evening.
[1:16:55] I'm kristen pcio with hamburg rubin mall and maxwell lupin. Uh,
[1:16:59] I'm here tonight, uh, with my team that is sitting here in the two
[1:17:03] rows, uh, to the right over there
[1:17:07] we have, uh, the owners of the property are here, at least part of them. Uh, from
[1:17:12] green barn investment group. The two gentlemen over there, it is chris richter
[1:17:16] and matt lavell. The other owner is david warner real estate. He's
[1:17:21] not present this evening. Uh, will jagger is here from buller engineering sitting
[1:17:25] on the yen. Uh, matt hammond from traffic planning and design is
[1:17:29] here. And eric hetzel from eh, creative services,
[1:17:33] who did some financial analysis is here as well. Um, we're
[1:17:38] here to talk about, uh, the, the green, the, uh,
[1:17:42] pfizer dow property, as we all call it. Uh, this property was acquired
[1:17:46] by my clients two years ago. Uh, a year ago. They met with staff
[1:17:50] to talk about the trouble that they were having with this property and its decline
[1:17:55] in may of this year. We met with staff to talk further about
[1:17:59] the vacancy and the downward spiral spiral of the office, uh,
[1:18:03] use on the property. We discussed some proposals on our end
[1:18:07] and staff said, come in with the sketch, discuss it, uh, with the board. And
[1:18:11] that is why we are here. So, um, we have some proposals to
[1:18:16] discuss with you or a proposal to revitalize the property.
[1:18:20] um, it is, uh, a suffering piece of property, 335
[1:18:24] acres. It is terribly underperforming. And, uh, we
[1:18:28] have a proposal to fix that. And I'd like to suggest that
[1:18:32] there are three benefits, uh, that we will share with you. And in
[1:18:37] 10 minutes, I can go through our slide projection, go through that with you,
[1:18:41] and then we are here to answer questions. We do have slides
[1:18:45] that jeff can click through, but I have hard copies here in case
[1:18:49] you want to go back and look at things. I know you have screens in front of you, but
[1:18:53] I like hard copies and thought you might like them too. So just gimme a second. They're all
[1:18:57] hands up.
[1:19:02] there should be one for everybody, including the police. 'cause I know you're interested.
[1:19:26] is there enough, jeff? Uh, you one short?
[1:19:30] I have. Oh, this is different,
[1:19:37] your honor.
[1:19:43] you want hear me? I can hear. Oh, we're fine. We have plenty. Thank you.
[1:19:48] um, so this is just the cover page. That's everybody who's here. So you have our names.
[1:19:52] uh, next slide please, jeff. Uh, so this is the property
[1:19:57] identified here. I think you're all, uh, familiar with it. Arcola road
[1:20:01] is down here on the bottom. We have route 29 here to the top.
[1:20:05] this is, uh, 4 22. This is route 29. We call
[1:20:09] this the quadrant, uh, in reference to other, uh, exhibits
[1:20:14] that I will share with you. Next slide please.
[1:20:19] so, uh, the office, uh,
[1:20:23] square footage consists of 1.9 million square feet.
[1:20:28] currently, dow is occupying 800 square
[1:20:32] feet on your copies. You should see those in color. And for
[1:20:36] those people watching, it's, this area right here is occupied by
[1:20:41] dow. They are, uh, they have a 10 year lease. So they
[1:20:45] are staying and they occupy 800,000. Pfizer
[1:20:49] is occupying 675,000 square feet. They
[1:20:54] are here, we're not sure how long they'll be there. And keller williams
[1:20:58] occupies these two little buildings right here on the property.
[1:21:02] the rest of the property is vacant. Next slide please.
[1:21:07] so, uh, there's been a major reduction in the assessed value of
[1:21:11] this property. Uh, you had a lot of conversations tonight about tax revenue
[1:21:16] and if this, the court has, uh, approved
[1:21:21] the tax reductions since we were here in front of the planning commission
[1:21:25] a couple of weeks ago. And tonight, you can see from this exhibit
[1:21:30] there's three columns. Here we have the current occupancy, the previous
[1:21:34] assessed value for the property. And this is the assessed value, not the market value.
[1:21:38] it's about $144 million that had
[1:21:42] a market value of about 468 million.
[1:21:47] uh, the current reduced, uh, assessed value has
[1:21:51] dropped to 45 million. So we've lost, uh, a significant
[1:21:55] about $101 million in assessed value on this property.
[1:22:00] and that's based on the current occupancy of employees of 550.
[1:22:05] the last column shows that there's a current, this current trend is
[1:22:09] a reduction in occupants on the property. If that continues and drops to 250
[1:22:14] employees, there's a further reduction, not in the property values, but
[1:22:18] in the tax revenue. All the columns are there. So
[1:22:22] at the bottom of this exhibit, you'll see we've done the tax revenue
[1:22:26] for the township and the these column, these, um, rows here in
[1:22:30] each of the columns. We've done the revenue for the school district here because we
[1:22:34] think your residents care about both. And in the bottom, we have the total
[1:22:39] tax revenue for each of the taxing districts. We did not do the counting,
[1:22:43] just the township and the school district. So prior to the, to
[1:22:47] the reduction, we had almost $6 million in tax revenue
[1:22:51] to the township and the school district. Now it is about $2 million.
[1:22:56] so, um, it is not only a problem for the property owners, um, we
[1:23:00] think it's a significant issue for the taxing authority. So
[1:23:05] we have a proposal to try to fix that. Next slide, please.
[1:23:10] so in order to revitalize this office campus, and we
[1:23:14] have a unique situation because dow is staying, those office
[1:23:19] structures are in the middle of this property, and we'd like to revitalize
[1:23:23] the use of the office, which is in the middle of the property.
[1:23:27] and to do that, we are suggesting a townhouse development
[1:23:32] along the right side of the property. It's on the side where the per
[1:23:36] trail is located. The trail does traverse our property via an easement.
[1:23:41] and, uh, we have proposed, uh, a
[1:23:45] hospital or gmp use here along arcola road
[1:23:49] that is about 290,000 square feet with surface
[1:23:53] and a parking garage. The townhouses consist of 349.
[1:23:59] and then we propose four pad sites down here, uh,
[1:24:03] possibly a convenience store and three qsrs. They're quick service
[1:24:08] restaurants. So the idea is to get people on this campus to
[1:24:12] entice office users to come back to this property. We don't believe we
[1:24:16] would have big hitters that would take a significant amount of square footage.
[1:24:20] we think that we would have large, you know, smaller chunks of square footage to be
[1:24:25] occupied by office users. Those people on the property would also
[1:24:29] entice, you know, a hospital use on the property, which then would revitalize the
[1:24:33] office use again for their, um, office needs.
[1:24:37] and then the retail and or service restaurant use would
[1:24:41] also serve these people. Next slide
[1:24:45] please. So the next page in your packet and on the
[1:24:50] screen, we've done analysis of what this development would
[1:24:54] generate from a tax perspective. So just this development that
[1:24:58] I just described. We have the residential in the first column, the
[1:25:02] life science or hospital facility in this section here, and then the
[1:25:06] retail or qsr in this section here. And grand total on
[1:25:10] the end. We've done this for township revenue across the board.
[1:25:14] we've taken into account the expenditures, uh, necessary for each of
[1:25:19] those uses. Uh, school district along here, just like the
[1:25:23] previous analysis, grand totals along the bottom. So in
[1:25:27] total tax revenue for both the township and the school district, if all of
[1:25:31] what I propose is constructed would be, uh, $3.15 million
[1:25:37] in additional tax revenue. Next slide please.
[1:25:46] so if we can just pause for a moment. If we have that additional revenue of 3.15 million
[1:25:53] and we revitalized the office, we could get this property
[1:25:57] back in total to a tax revenue for the school
[1:26:01] district and the township to $9.15 million
[1:26:05] of taxes for the both the township and the school district combined.
[1:26:10] so the benefits, number one, that, that tax revenue, that's
[1:26:15] the big one. Number two, we have, um, if we got
[1:26:19] into land development, we would discuss some pedestrian connectivity that
[1:26:23] we could continue through this property. Uh, on this plan
[1:26:27] in purple is the existing public trail system. We have
[1:26:31] this through campus drive across our cola. This is in purple.
[1:26:35] we have the per trail, which traverses part of our property up
[1:26:39] in this area in yellow, there is a significant trail
[1:26:44] system through the campus of my client's property. There is
[1:26:48] an internal road system, but also a trail system that is highlighted in yellow.
[1:26:52] what you see in brown is what we could do. And as far as future
[1:26:57] connectivity through that land development process, we could add
[1:27:01] additional trail along our frontage, along our cola. We could
[1:27:05] bring it around down, I mean, I'm sorry, on route 29. Then bring it
[1:27:09] around on our cola, add some connections interior to the campus
[1:27:14] down here. We have a gap back in this area. I'm
[1:27:18] sorry, this area here where our existing trail doesn't quite
[1:27:22] meet, uh, the perch trail. We could make that connection
[1:27:26] and maybe another connection down on this lower end. Um, so
[1:27:31] add to the trail system. We do have your, uh, interactive
[1:27:35] trail map and we think that the, the pedestrian connectivity,
[1:27:40] uh, would be another huge benefit for the township. And
[1:27:44] lastly, as far as the third benefit, we would do our share of
[1:27:48] improvements along route 29. Obviously we have a lot of frontage on route
[1:27:52] 29, and we understand there are other improvements being done
[1:27:56] north of us on route 29. And there's a gap, uh, between
[1:28:00] us and those improvements. We would obviously have an
[1:28:04] impact on the all of route 29 and we could do our share,
[1:28:09] uh, to complete that. And, um, add to those improvements
[1:28:13] on the route 29, all of which we would obviously discuss, uh, during
[1:28:17] the land development process. So
[1:28:21] we know that you have, um, development fatigue. So I look
[1:28:25] through your, uh, planning documents at the county and the township
[1:28:29] level to see why from a planning perspective, does this make
[1:28:34] sense? Next slide please. So starting with the monko 2040
[1:28:38] vision, that's the montgomery county planning commission comprehensive plan.
[1:28:42] next slide please. They've identified this area, what I call the quadrant,
[1:28:47] which includes our property as a, uh,
[1:28:52] regional retail. I wanna get it right,
[1:28:59] regional mixed use center. I've circled that on the
[1:29:03] plan. Next slide please. And they've identified and defined
[1:29:07] a regional mixed use center as an intensely developed suburban
[1:29:12] core with significant retail, lots of traffic, lots of jobs
[1:29:16] overall, a lot of activity. It includes specifically high
[1:29:20] density, multifamily, and town homes.
[1:29:25] next slide please. Then I went to your comprehensive plan, which was just
[1:29:29] adopted last year, and on page 66 of your
[1:29:33] plan under the future land use plan, it talks about
[1:29:38] given the ever shifting real estate development market and township needs,
[1:29:42] the township needs to be cognizant of the trends and the underused ie
[1:29:47] vacant office buildings, vacant industrial properties within its boundary
[1:29:51] and the effect on the financial viability to adequately serve
[1:29:55] the remaining township at large. So unlike other comprehensive
[1:29:59] plans that have dozens of goals and objectives with respect to
[1:30:03] the future land use plan, this comprehensive update
[1:30:07] plan pairs that down to one guiding principle for the life of this plan.
[1:30:12] and in bold, they put preserve those under undeveloped
[1:30:16] areas and channel redevelopment into those areas
[1:30:20] that the in infrastructure exists.
[1:30:24] next slide, please. So clearly the infrastructure is here
[1:30:29] on this property. Um, we have stormwater management, we
[1:30:33] have road systems, we have, um, water, we have
[1:30:37] sewer, we have intersections. And specifically on the next
[1:30:41] page, they identify this route 29 interchange, campus drive.
[1:30:45] um, identifying it is giving its proximity to the existing and long
[1:30:50] term office campus, campus environments,
[1:30:54] uh, proximity to the interchange of route 4 22, a
[1:30:58] thriving commercial shopping area. Redevelopment of this area is
[1:31:02] paramount to the future of the township. With the individual office market
[1:31:06] floundering at this time, the township cannot wait for the individual office users
[1:31:10] to return. Zoning should be reviewed to ensure flexibility with
[1:31:14] a broad range of permitted uses. So we think
[1:31:19] we've done our homework. We think that we've come up with something that will help revitalize
[1:31:23] this property to create tax revenue for the township, add the connectivity
[1:31:27] that's missing in pieces on this property, and do our part,
[1:31:31] uh, along route 29. And we think that we followed your planning guidelines
[1:31:36] both from the county and the township. And we'd like to work with your staff
[1:31:40] with your permission to achieve some legislative, um,
[1:31:45] result that could achieve this plan and go through
[1:31:49] the details during the land development process.
[1:31:55] can you talk a little bit more about the hospital there in the top left corner?
[1:31:59] I'm going to ask for my clients to come up and talk about the details of those users.
[1:32:03] this is, this is chris richter and matt labelle.
[1:32:09] good evening. And, and, and thanks for hearing our, uh, presentation tonight. Uh,
[1:32:13] we do not have a, a formal application. Our process
[1:32:18] of, of the end result being with you tonight is we were approached by,
[1:32:22] uh, a regional, uh, call it a national bank, uh,
[1:32:27] to, uh, sign a location at the intersection. And we've had a full leasing team
[1:32:31] in place, uh, at the campus right now to try to solicit additional office
[1:32:35] users. And we were approached by, uh, one of the hospital groups.
[1:32:40] uh, we've done nothing to progress those deals, uh, because
[1:32:44] we're so far off with, with zoning right now and timing and understanding
[1:32:48] the viability of, of we're building right now. So this is a process we're
[1:32:52] trying to get comfortable that there is a process, um, for us
[1:32:57] al to get to the end game. Um, I do want to bring up one other point,
[1:33:01] which is, you know, I enjoyed the presentation in your open space, but
[1:33:06] you know, we look at all these projects as, you know, sort of a, a public private, uh,
[1:33:10] partnership. And you know, we have this
[1:33:14] large chunk of land that you can see between the brook trail
[1:33:18] and the river. Um, that the only uses for us right now
[1:33:23] is that we have a 10% building coverage ratios. The land has value
[1:33:27] based on the percentages, but we would certainly work with the township on understanding whether,
[1:33:31] um, that parcel is something that, um, could be,
[1:33:36] you know, part of the open space program. So we're here as we, we, we look
[1:33:40] at all these partners we have to, um, as, as a partner with the municipality,
[1:33:45] and we would gladly, you know, sit down with your staff and start looking at those opportunities.
[1:33:52] see, I'm sorry, which part are you talking about? The open space? Is it where the residential is? So
[1:33:56] I let see the, so this, if you, you know, just because we, this
[1:34:01] parcel, this is the ingham trail, this is the river.
[1:34:05] this was actually noted on one of your exhibits
[1:34:09] that you had, um, pop as as potential, uh, open
[1:34:13] space acquisitions. And I
[1:34:17] don't have an acreage on it, but it's, I don't know, I'm looking at
[1:34:21] my engineer here to say 20, 25 acres. Probably shy of that.
[1:34:27] but you know, we, we would just want to get, have the opportunity to sit down with you
[1:34:32] and understand your priorities. And I think we can do a lot. This is to
[1:34:36] us, this is a campus that has a ton of infrastructure that will, will
[1:34:40] benefit the townhouse community and we can integrate this project into the infrastructure
[1:34:44] that exists. Uh, not just the townhouses, but the retail and potentially
[1:34:48] the hospital site. I it crazy. Good place.
[1:34:53] that'd be great. If it was mixed use instead all town rooms, would you have 349
[1:34:58] townhouses? I'm sorry, I have a hard time hearing
[1:35:02] you. Uh, just like a mixed use movement instead of all those town homes, you
[1:35:06] have like what, 349 all town homes? 349? Yeah,
[1:35:11] I, we, I mean honestly, we would talk about
[1:35:16] anything. We, we, we, we did evaluate the opportunity of knocking down some of the
[1:35:20] office buildings and creating, you know, I'll call it a, an
[1:35:24] apartment true mixed use. If you've been through the campus and looked
[1:35:28] at the dow building, it is just not that attractive. Um, and
[1:35:32] I, I think, you know, we, we looked at this 10 different ways. Um,
[1:35:36] and we've done mixed use projects, you know, throughout the country. Um,
[1:35:41] and we just can't get comfortable with, with integrating residential into the
[1:35:45] surface parking areas and not have it, uh, being adversely
[1:35:49] impacted by the existing buildings that are there. Um, sites
[1:35:53] open police take a ride through there anytime you want. You can take a look at the existing architecture
[1:35:57] and realize it's just not compatible with integrating residential
[1:36:01] adjacent to it. But
[1:36:05] even the, you know, even the numbers, we're not married to 340
[1:36:09] units. We'd love the opportunity to talk about what the appropriate buffer is
[1:36:14] to the trail. You know, talk about the details that, um,
[1:36:18] make a difference, um, and get to, uh,
[1:36:22] a townhouse count that, uh, that makes sense to, uh, you know,
[1:36:27] what, what's valuable to the township and still gives us a project that's worth pursuing.
[1:36:32] um, we're not married to townhouses, but we think that's the right product. I think you've got a lot of apartments
[1:36:36] coming online in town. Um, we think this particular location,
[1:36:41] given its its open space, um, and we think
[1:36:45] the townhouse is the right market as if compared to building more apartments.
[1:36:52] you mentioned a $9 million number earlier. I was following your math until
[1:36:57] you threw 9 million out. Yeah, I think what she missed is that if we can fill
[1:37:01] the 500,000 square foot of vacancy, we would then have that
[1:37:05] vacancy back in the tax roll, adding to
[1:37:10] the, the 2 million plus the three, the 2 million under the existing scenario, plus
[1:37:14] the 3 million to add value, plus getting that office space
[1:37:18] filled up so it gets back into a higher suspect.
[1:37:22] thank you.
[1:37:30] yeah, you mentioned the fatigue. I mean, I think the fatigue is that it's just, I mean,
[1:37:36] it's, it's constant, um,
[1:37:41] multifamily high density housing that's coming at us all the time. And
[1:37:45] providence, and that's, lene just mentioned it, it's, I, I, we
[1:37:49] knew this was gonna come eventually. So first off, thank you very
[1:37:53] much for coming in and starting here and not starting at,
[1:37:58] hey, we got, we got preliminary plans and we're trying to get down them
[1:38:02] track. It's always better to start here. So I really appreciate that. It's helpful because
[1:38:06] it's, now we can start wrapping our heads around where you're thinking and kind of what we want to do.
[1:38:11] you're right, the high density, we said in the, in the, uh, 10 year comprehensive
[1:38:15] plan, we wanted it up around the 4 22 corridor. So this is kind of where we want it.
[1:38:20] we just had a big development, um, a year ago and
[1:38:25] schools were a giant issue. So 350 homes becomes,
[1:38:29] we already have a community that believes we've outgrown our
[1:38:34] school district. So what does this cause from us from a school standpoint?
[1:38:38] um, do we need to redistrict schools? I think they're already talking about redistricting schools,
[1:38:42] so there's a, so there's things come into play a lot too when we start talking about the,
[1:38:46] the fatigue of the development. But, um, I'm intrigued by the
[1:38:51] hospital actually. Is there, um,
[1:38:55] I didn't see that one coming. Is there a, is there a need? Is there are, are
[1:38:59] the current phoenix bill, so I've been responsible for wasting up the
[1:39:03] property for the last two years. Um, minimally haven't done a that
[1:39:07] great of a job, unfortunately. Um, but that's more of a response to
[1:39:11] market, uh, kind of inquiries. We've had three different hospitals come
[1:39:15] to us and say, hey, you've got this parcel over there, like, we want to be in this
[1:39:20] area. We think that this area doesn't have, you know, isn't served,
[1:39:24] um, by a hospital adequately. Um, so after,
[1:39:28] you know, the first call I was like, okay, whatever. Second call came in, third ca
[1:39:32] third call came in. I was like, there has to be something here. And that's really why we wanted
[1:39:36] to put it on there. We also had gmp, which is, you know, drug, uh, manufacturing,
[1:39:41] um, companies that have reached out to us as well. So we're just, we want to keep that
[1:39:45] parcel as you know, flexible right now. Okay. Um, but there, there's
[1:39:50] one particular hospital that has been more engaged than the other two.
[1:39:54] um, and in response to your high density, we see
[1:39:58] it, I, I'm here, you know, once a week, um, love the area. Um,
[1:40:03] grew up in pennsylvania and uh, I, you know, we could
[1:40:07] have come in here with, you know, four over one 3000
[1:40:11] units and we, we just, I think, you know, from a commercial standpoint,
[1:40:16] we, we kind of think that market's kind of maxed out. So we just, I don't wanna build something that
[1:40:20] isn't saleable right. And that'll stay vacant. I have already got vacant space
[1:40:24] that I need to deal with. So that's kind of what we came in with, uh, different
[1:40:28] products I to, to serve a different demographic. Um, I like that you
[1:40:32] started a townhouse and not stacked up. Yeah, it's, it's not stacked. It, they're regular old
[1:40:36] townhouses. I think the 24 by 52
[1:40:40] it'd be, uh, you know, three bedroom, you know, two and a half, three story, three bedroom.
[1:40:46] um, they'd be nice units. Um, and, you know, you can't see it
[1:40:50] very well on the plan, but, you know, it shows a full amenity area, full
[1:40:54] pickleball courts. And we can, we, we can get into
[1:40:58] the details on that. I mean, we, we are very fortunate that
[1:41:02] land is not our issue on this property. Um, we
[1:41:06] have a lot of flexibility. Uh, this was really just a starting point
[1:41:11] to really look at, you know, from a zoning perspective, that
[1:41:15] if we proceed forward, what we'd love to say is okay, you know,
[1:41:20] mixed use makes sense on the property. A residential component,
[1:41:25] a hospital component, uh, maybe manufacturing.
[1:41:29] we don't see this as a great retail site. Um, it's just,
[1:41:33] it's just too big. That's why I was curious how married you are to the fast food the
[1:41:37] corner. We're, we're, we have, the only real interest we have
[1:41:42] is, is the bank. I think it's a great little bank pad site. We think that some,
[1:41:46] you know, quick serve restaurants or sit down restaurants makes a lot of sense for
[1:41:50] the, uh, existing office tenants and the future tenants. We couldn't
[1:41:54] care about the convenience store. I mean, it's just a placeholder. Anything that's objectional
[1:41:59] what we don't want, and we will not proceed with, you know, a fight on this.
[1:42:03] you know, we're here with a fight on this project, right? We want to,
[1:42:07] we want to work with it. We wanna work with you guys, bring a project that, that
[1:42:11] everyone's proud of. Um, and that's why, to your point,
[1:42:15] we're taking this baby step to make sure that we're at least
[1:42:20] in the ballpark and that we can, you know, not spend our money, not waste your time, not
[1:42:24] waste our time, but proceed forward with the project. That makes sense for everybody.
[1:42:28] I appreciate your privilege. The retail's interesting. I,
[1:42:32] I almost wanna spend time and kind of take an assessment of what is all the things going here?
[1:42:37] what do we actually, because there's a lot going in at quest now,
[1:42:41] I have potential to put something additional in here that we don't have
[1:42:45] in the township, right? So what, how can we be creative with what
[1:42:49] yeah, what, what don't we have that, maybe we can go into this.
[1:42:53] can you show the, the buildings that are currently being used again
[1:42:58] in the, can you yep. We'll get,
[1:43:05] so just the ones, so dow is all of the blue. Dow has this
[1:43:09] portion right here, right on the hard copy. You can see it
[1:43:13] highlighted easier. So the, are they all occupied or not? No,
[1:43:17] we have, dow has about, um, a 1.9 million square feet. Dow
[1:43:21] has, uh, about 800,000 square feet. Pfizer has about 6 75,
[1:43:26] and then keller williams has a four building a and that's about it.
[1:43:30] everything else is, is currently vacant. What's the plan for,
[1:43:35] for those cases now? Are you, we're hoping that, that by creating
[1:43:39] more of a destination, a little more activity, um, and that's really
[1:43:44] the retail. I, I, I hear you. Um, if we had some quick service retail,
[1:43:48] we think it's a little bit easier than people getting in their cars and coming over to wegman's
[1:43:52] across the way, which I do every time I come for lunch. Um,
[1:43:57] and, uh, you know, that'll drive some more leasing activity at, at the buildings.
[1:44:01] right now we're just an office park in the middle of kind of a fields
[1:44:05] around us, but we,
[1:44:09] you know, just, just chime in, you know, the town better than we do. If
[1:44:13] there's a use that you feel could benefit the community, we're
[1:44:18] all ears. I mean, it's, uh, we, we have the real estate, it's just,
[1:44:22] we don't yeah, that's kind of where my head was at. I appreciate your
[1:44:27] openness with that. I think we have to step back a little bit about that.
[1:44:31] we, we also have an old farmhouse that, uh, is currently vacant. Uh, it's
[1:44:35] in really good, it's really good shape. Um, but we don't, we don't use it. We
[1:44:39] don't know what to do with it. So we're open. Where, where is it on? Where is it on? Oh, is it, so our, our old
[1:44:43] barn, which is the conference center is right here. And then the farmhouse is, uh,
[1:44:47] is right there. It was converted to a three, uh, person hotel, um,
[1:44:52] with three suites, but nobody uses it anymore. Um, so,
[1:44:56] and we don't know with that open suggestions. Yeah.
[1:45:00] article in like was it the philadelphia enquire like couple
[1:45:05] a year ago? It could have been two years ago at this point about, um, this like life science campus that
[1:45:10] was interview with you. Is this we, yeah. Shortly after we closed, that was our
[1:45:14] idea is, uh, life sciences. Um, uh, that market
[1:45:18] dried up signifi significantly. Uh, unfortunately after we closed. Um,
[1:45:22] we've been trying to draw people out there. Um, it's tough to get,
[1:45:27] uh, past, get them past kind of king of prussia area. Um,
[1:45:31] and all the tenants that work, the life science tenants that are looking, they're
[1:45:35] not just looking in philadelphia. They're really comparing philadelphia versus boston
[1:45:40] and all the way down to like research triangle in north carolina center. You all the, like, the
[1:45:44] push to move manufacturing here. Like, I hope that comes, I
[1:45:48] hope that comes, we haven't seen it yet, but I hope it comes.
[1:45:52] that's why the gmp facility up there, that would be perfect. Um,
[1:45:56] you know, there's been a lot of talk, we just haven't seen anyone actually do it yet.
[1:46:02] yeah. And we're not adverse to tearing down some of our vacancy
[1:46:06] for the right tenant. Um, you know, we don't know
[1:46:11] how much vacancy we have, but right now I think, you know, the, we have at close
[1:46:15] to half a million square feet. So, um, we're looking at
[1:46:19] any opportunities that, that, uh, present itself.
[1:46:25] brainstorm board. Jeff.
[1:46:30] well, I appreciate him starting the conversation. Yeah. We'll, we'll, we'll figure out what our next steps are.
[1:46:34] I appreciate you coming and presenting this. This would requires a zoning change, right.
[1:46:38] do this. So yeah, my thoughts on it, just initial thoughts is
[1:46:43] a completely huge zoning district. I don't want to add this in as, as io
[1:46:48] you know, residential diss residential that we have, we other subgroups. It would be something
[1:46:52] I think that we, we look at just a complete new zoning district of
[1:46:56] mixed f and something else that, that encapsulated all of what we concluded
[1:47:01] for it. And, uh, you're
[1:47:05] still gonna leave though all the existing buildings and an existing part. You're not talking about
[1:47:09] your just, you don't wanna knock them down. You don't want that with mind.
[1:47:13] well, we'd love to have the flexibility built in. We, we,
[1:47:18] we misjudged the life science, you know, cycle. Um, so
[1:47:24] it would, I think it would benefit the project and, and the property
[1:47:28] to, to work with you guys and, and put everything that may or may not happen
[1:47:33] that that works for you guys into the zoning as permitted uses or conditional
[1:47:37] uses, depending upon how you want to structure it. Um, life
[1:47:41] sciences may come back the next cycle. Um, so it's, it is
[1:47:45] really, um, we don't plan on that right now 'cause the
[1:47:49] market doesn't exist. But it doesn't mean that five years from now it doesn't. Well, what would work me a
[1:47:53] little, a little bit is, um, you're gonna be redeveloping all around
[1:47:58] the edges of this and you've still got this core of building as a parking
[1:48:02] lot in the middle that may or may not make a comeback based on what you do around
[1:48:06] it. So then what? It's just this dead core of industrial loadings.
[1:48:10] yeah, I I, I, I wish I had an answer for you on that. Uh, it is our
[1:48:14] hope, and it's actually our business plan, is that through,
[1:48:19] um, adding these ultimate uses, as an example, if we do get a
[1:48:23] hospital, there's those peripheral medical offices that follow hospitals.
[1:48:27] and that could be an opportunity for us to fill some of the vacancy. Um,
[1:48:32] you know, if you, if you give this, this, this, I'll call it a
[1:48:36] live work environment, uh, there may be additional officers
[1:48:40] that would come here 'cause their employees have, um, good
[1:48:44] housing in close proximity. I think they're gonna have other opportunities in town as
[1:48:48] well. But, um, you know, we don't want to tear 'em down yet. Um,
[1:48:52] could we be back here in, in, in five years and 10 years and talking about, you
[1:48:56] know, knocking down that core pfizer and
[1:49:01] dow will be there. I'm not sure if they're gonna be in the same square footages,
[1:49:05] but they will be there and they kind of book in that, that property to a point where
[1:49:09] you have those, uh, four buildings in sort of the semicircle
[1:49:15] configuration. Those are the ones that may be five years from now. If our business
[1:49:19] plan doesn't work out, uh, we're gonna have to start thinking about
[1:49:23] what we do with that core area. I'm
[1:49:27] sorry, go ahead. I think this is also an opportunity to look at the zoning
[1:49:31] for, this was originally written in 1970. I mean, this is obviously
[1:49:36] that type of industrial or that type of business campus that really doesn't exist anymore.
[1:49:40] you can see campuses up and down the, the corridor that, that have
[1:49:44] gone a different way and, and, and been completely, you
[1:49:48] know, remodeled or re redeveloped. I, you know, the parking standard
[1:49:52] for this is probably much higher than it needs to be. I mean, I think at the planning commission
[1:49:57] they mentioned people are there three days a week, so obviously you don't need to see a parking.
[1:50:01] um, maybe that, you know, some of the development can go on
[1:50:05] to where the existing parking is, not to the level maybe that the planning commission was hoping.
[1:50:09] but, but you know, those are the ideas that we can take with us and, and sort of move
[1:50:14] forward to see how we can adapt this from the 1970s
[1:50:18] zoning and the 1970s development patterns to something that reflects more of the way
[1:50:22] the society is now. And the more, as I said, a live work environment that that
[1:50:26] is much more beneficial for the township if we are to move this forward.
[1:50:34] thank you. Yeah, thank you so much. So,
[1:50:38] um, we'll leave you with our materials and we'll
[1:50:42] look to hear back. We'll work through your staff with your comments and hopefully
[1:50:46] have some dialogue. But thanks for your time tonight. We really appreciate it. Thank you.
[1:50:50] hopefully we'll hear from you soon. Good night. Kristen. Chris,
[1:50:55] I have a thousand of these. Please take it.
[1:51:02] um, our next item.
[1:51:06] our next item was to discuss adding sewer building to the real estate
[1:51:10] tax bill. But, uh, in our executive session we found that we
[1:51:14] quite didn't have things lined up. So we're going to table that item
[1:51:18] number eight. We need to make a motion to table, or
[1:51:24] I'll make a motion to table agenda number eight this
[1:51:28] evening relative to adding suitability into the real estate
[1:51:32] tax base. I'll second that. Alright, I have a motion. And second, all those in
[1:51:36] favor say aye. Aye. Anyone opposed? Thank you very much.
[1:51:42] okay. Um, next we're gonna
[1:51:46] consider authorizing the advertisement and sale of township owned property.
[1:51:51] it is not real estate. It is to reiterate, this is personal property of
[1:51:55] the township recommendation to equipment.
[1:51:59] it's not open space. Now, generally twice a year staff, uh,
[1:52:04] uh, puts together a list of, uh, surplus equipment that is at the end of it for
[1:52:08] life. Most of it is, um, uh, I think most of, most
[1:52:12] all of us has been replaced through the township's, uh, capital budget.
[1:52:16] uh, so we're seeking boards authorization to advertise and sell a 2004
[1:52:21] caterpillar skidsteer, a three point auger salt spreaders,
[1:52:26] a 2018 dodge charger with 88,000 miles, a 2018
[1:52:30] dodge ram 1500 with 112,000 miles, a
[1:52:34] 2005 load wright boat trailer without the boat.
[1:52:38] 44 sections of fire hose, multiple boxes, uh, high vein radios,
[1:52:43] other various equipment, uh, of minimal value as we get
[1:52:47] down the list. We'll be back to you again in january, february with the similar list.
[1:52:51] are we gonna, it was on municipal bid. It would go on municipal bid.
[1:52:55] publicly bid. That dodge charger is that got the, is that a police, a foreign
[1:52:59] police car? Yes, it was intercept identity.
[1:53:10] we're gonna put a gps on it. ,
[1:53:14] um, auto tickets. I'll entertain a motion. I'll make
[1:53:18] a motion to authorize the advertisement of the sale of township owned property as the student.
[1:53:23] I'll second. Alright, I have a motion to second. All those in favor say aye.
[1:53:27] aye. Anyone opposed? Thank you.
[1:53:32] alright. And uh, next is motion to
[1:53:36] enact ordinance 6 1 6 regarding the purpose of duties
[1:53:40] of the uniform construction of fire board code appeals.
[1:53:45] go ahead. The township, uh, has had a uniform construction
[1:53:49] code board of appeals in place since 2004. Uh, when the pennsylvania
[1:53:53] uniform construction code was, uh, enacted statewide
[1:53:58] in my 10 years of the township, I think we've had three meetings
[1:54:02] of that board where they, uh, sought a variance or, or appealed the, the building
[1:54:06] code officials interpretation of the code. Uh, and the uniform
[1:54:10] construction code establishes a very, very rough framework for what that board is supposed to do and
[1:54:14] how they're supposed to act. Ordinance six 16, it was repaired by,
[1:54:19] uh, the solicitor, uh, developed some procedures and
[1:54:23] rules that they're to follow as they conduct meetings or hearings that's been
[1:54:27] properly advertised or asked to the board to consider enacting the ordinance tonight.
[1:54:33] we have any questions? If
[1:54:37] not, I'll entertain a motion. I'll make a motion to enact ordinance six 16
[1:54:41] regarding the purpose and duties of the uniform construction fire code board of appeals.
[1:54:48] I'll second. I have a motion and a second. All those in favor say aye. Aye.
[1:54:52] anyone opposed? Thank you.
[1:54:56] and the next one's related. I see. Yeah, the, the
[1:55:01] next resolution on your agenda is related to the uniform construction code board of appeals.
[1:55:05] it amends the township's fee scheduled to establish a fee for of a $500
[1:55:09] for a meeting or $1,000 for a hearing before
[1:55:13] the board of appeals. Okay. Alright. I'll entertain
[1:55:17] a motion. I'll make a motion to adopt resolution 2025
[1:55:23] dash 29 amending the fee schedule to include fees for
[1:55:27] the uniform construction and fire code board of appeals. I'll
[1:55:31] second I motion a second. All those in favor say aye. Aye.
[1:55:35] anyone opposed? Thank you.
[1:55:44] okay. And now we're gonna talk about pension funds, right?
[1:55:49] am I right mr. Chairman? This is something we do every september.
[1:55:53] uh, we get the actuarial numbers from our, uh, two actuaries
[1:55:58] from mock and hopin and joe do them for all of our defined contribution
[1:56:02] and defined benefit plans. So the required
[1:56:06] by september 30th, november year to provide with the actual
[1:56:10] mmo, that's the required minimum, minimum municipal obligation
[1:56:14] that we're supposed to, um, provide to bring, make pitch
[1:56:19] funds whole. And these numbers will be reflected the 2026
[1:56:23] budget. Did they go up a little from last year? The percentage? Joe, can you answer
[1:56:27] that? They were here a few months ago, but I had forgotten.
[1:56:32] we're just about the same. Yeah,
[1:56:41] I'll entertain a motion this obligatory.
[1:56:47] okay. I'll make a motions without resolution. 2025 dash 30 outlining
[1:56:51] the 2026 minimum municipal obligations nmos
[1:56:55] for the township pension plans. I second. I
[1:56:59] have a motion a second. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Anyone
[1:57:04] opposed? Thank you. And
[1:57:09] motion to adopt resolution 2025 or consider adopting,
[1:57:13] uh, resolution 2025 dash three one authorizing
[1:57:18] the submission of an application for a rapc grant, uh, program
[1:57:22] for the new public works facility. Mr.
[1:57:26] chairman, this is our ongoing, uh, grant stacking strategy that we're trying to
[1:57:30] get monies for the new facility. It's a long term project
[1:57:35] wrap. The, uh, grant round just was announced, um, very
[1:57:39] recently and there's a very short turnaround time. So, um, delta's put this
[1:57:44] together for our consideration. This will be discussed at our budget workshop.
[1:57:48] yeah, I we've got like 10 days, right? Yeah. Okay. So this is just to help us
[1:57:52] pay for the new building. That's correct. Okay.
[1:57:57] all right. I'll make a motion to do resolution 2025 dash 31 authorizing
[1:58:02] the submission of an application to the racp grant program
[1:58:06] for the new public works facility. I'll second that. I have a motion
[1:58:10] and a second. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Anyone
[1:58:15] opposed? Thank you. Alright. Manager and
[1:58:19] department head reports. Sue has a, she's here
[1:58:25] an actual video. I'm sorry. Is that an actual video? No, it doesn't look like one
[1:58:29] though. . I didn't know if I had to press plug. I'm not that much fun.
[1:58:34] um, well we talked a lot about parks today, so I'm gonna show
[1:58:38] the other side of my department and show a little bit of recreation. Um,
[1:58:42] thank you jeff. So I wanted to give you a little bit of our past.
[1:58:47] um, we ran through summer camps this year. I just wanted to give you some of
[1:58:51] the stats. We had 15 camps overall this summer, 10 half
[1:58:55] day, the rest full day. Um, with the hard work from bob, our recreation
[1:58:59] and camp coordinator, as well as melissa, our program coordinator in our new canva
[1:59:03] pro. Um, all their efforts paid off 'cause 95% of our camps were
[1:59:07] full or at max capacity. Many of them also had a wait list, which
[1:59:11] was very encouraging for our upcoming season. I'm sorry. Thank
[1:59:16] you. And goodnight. Thank you, sir. Thank you all.
[1:59:23] um, so we started our summer camp off with our camp blackrock and a couple of our
[1:59:27] specialty camps and then ended our season out with our emergency service academy.
[1:59:35] summer also didn't end here. We had our broad belt classic. This was our car
[1:59:39] show. Um, the rain really hit us hard this spring and summer.
[1:59:44] um, majority of our things were rained. Um, we
[1:59:48] so came out hard that day. We had 50 plus cars, over 150 to
[1:59:52] 200 spectators, our food trucks, and we had some raffle baskets.
[1:59:56] everyone that was there had a great time and hopefully next year we can have some sunny days.
[2:00:03] summer concerts also took a pretty hard hit with the rain.
[2:00:07] um, it seemed every other wednesday when we had a concert, it rained or thunder stormed.
[2:00:12] um, but luckily with the use of the gymnasium over at the
[2:00:16] community center, we had majority of our concerts inside. We still had
[2:00:20] a good turnout between 75 and a hundred people. Given that we made that decision in the
[2:00:24] afternoon of the concert. Um, we did have a couple of our concerts outside.
[2:00:28] we did get lucky. Um, we had swifty in the midnights that ended
[2:00:32] our summer concert series and we had over a couple hundred people there that night. Um,
[2:00:37] we filled up the entire parking area over at anderson. We canceled all activities
[2:00:41] that night. Um, so we had a very nice turnout to end out the season.
[2:00:46] another rained out event. Um, we were supposed to have music
[2:00:50] fest in may and we canceled that and moved it to august.
[2:00:55] um, august proved to be a much better date. Um, we had eight bands
[2:00:59] that lasted the entire day. We prepared for the heat. We had a water slide
[2:01:03] there that day with the share of complications, but it worked out very nicely
[2:01:07] and kids were super excited and the parents actually, we noticed more people staying
[2:01:12] longer at this music fest than they have before. So, um,
[2:01:16] very good success. I have to thank tim williams. He's a local resident that helps gain
[2:01:21] all the bands and they're all local. So we're excited to have
[2:01:25] music fest in june next year. We're trying to push away from the
[2:01:29] spring months. April may tend not to be that great for us, so
[2:01:33] move to june. Um, I
[2:01:37] don't know why that logo looks so funny, but, um, we're gonna go into
[2:01:41] the present. So this weekend is fall fest annual fall festival.
[2:01:45] um, last year we had approximately 6,500
[2:01:50] people attend our fall fest. That is from 12 to noon. So over the five hour
[2:01:54] span, we had a lot of people here, a lot of action. We anticipate
[2:01:58] the same thing for this year's fall fest. Um, given that this
[2:02:02] is our last year with the use of the large parking lot, um,
[2:02:07] we are trying to trend at this location of how we're going to
[2:02:11] improvise parking moving forward. We are partnered with valley forge baptist church,
[2:02:16] a raider farm for this year to provide parking and shuttles. There will be bus shuttles
[2:02:20] available, um, but we are going to continue using quest
[2:02:24] this year with golf cart shuttles to get people over to location. But we
[2:02:28] are opening some parking on site. We're gonna see how this works this year as a new layout.
[2:02:32] so we're gonna see how it goes. Um, but we are going to have to start
[2:02:36] thinking outside the box to get 6,000 people on this property that day.
[2:02:40] um, but we are very excited. So if anybody is around, we are here, um, this
[2:02:45] saturday from 12 to five. And then moving into our future,
[2:02:49] we have some things coming up in the fall. We have our dance program.
[2:02:53] it's our fifth season. We have over a hundred children that take this program. It's
[2:02:57] 11 weeks. Um, and we do actually have a full on dance recital
[2:03:01] for 'em at the end. They all get costumes. Um, it's a very cute program.
[2:03:06] it's come a very long way. Um, we are going forward with a community center open
[2:03:10] house on october 3rd that is going to be halloween themed.
[2:03:14] um, so if you're interested in coming, we have a lot of activities centralized
[2:03:19] around halloween. So if you have a costume, I encourage you to wear it.
[2:03:23] um, given our successive summer camp this year, we are going to start doing a schools
[2:03:27] out camp. Um, we are going to start with skyhawks
[2:03:31] in september, and then we're going to move to our normal staff running
[2:03:35] some of the camps in october. And then
[2:03:40] moving forward, we have, um, our busy winter as well. So
[2:03:44] we have our eds trip in december, our winter wonderland.
[2:03:49] um, our light show starts, um, the day after, after thanksgiving.
[2:03:53] um, we have swooped the eagle coming to a raider farm that night. Um, so
[2:03:57] we're very excited about that. And then we have santa visiting the firehouse
[2:04:02] in december and that perhaps up our year so far.
[2:04:07] thank you. Thank you, sir. Thank you sir.
[2:04:18] um, consultant reports, anything from, uh, any
[2:04:22] engineering capital group? Um, if you were down in montclair in the
[2:04:26] past couple days, they're doing some more stabilization down there on the fema properties,
[2:04:31] so trying to bring those to the end. Okay, great.
[2:04:36] um, okay, now
[2:04:40] we need to, uh, approve the monthly developer improvement guarantee
[2:04:44] reduction list. We just have one item, I'll make the motion.
[2:04:50] I make a motion to approve the monthly developer improvement guarantee reduction
[2:04:54] list as follows. Item a harfield
[2:04:58] release number two in the amount of $3,345,069
[2:05:05] and 67 cents. Alright, I have
[2:05:09] a motion and a second. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye.
[2:05:14] alright, thank you very much. Anyone opposed? Alright.
[2:05:18] uh, solicitor report, anything mr. Sch? Solicitor? I have no report this evening.
[2:05:23] okay. Supervisor comments? Anybody want make to comment?
[2:05:28] alright, slow down. Don't pass the school buses. That's my comment. Alright,
[2:05:32] uh, I'll go over this upcoming schedule board supervisors
[2:05:36] meeting schedule. September 25th at seven o'clock. We have a budget
[2:05:41] workshop, september 30th, another budget workshop. And
[2:05:45] october 7th, our third and final budget workshop.
[2:05:49] our next regular meeting will be october 20th at 7:00 pm
[2:05:53] and then again november 17th at 7:00 pm
[2:05:58] uh, planning commission will meet september 17th at 7:00 pm
[2:06:02] this wednesday. Agenda items will be comprehensive plan action
[2:06:06] items, traffic safety, uh, october 1st
[2:06:10] they meet at 7:00 pm the agenda item will be 5 92 south mennonite
[2:06:15] road. Uh, spotless car wash
[2:06:19] 1 8 18 51 east ridge pike. The hassan
[2:06:24] road subdivision october 15th,
[2:06:28] uh, meeting is canceled.
[2:06:33] the reason that's canceled is because of the open space discussion that's
[2:06:37] scheduled for that night. Okay, so it says canceled here, but there's
[2:06:41] still a meeting that night. Okay. Um, the environmental
[2:06:45] environmental advisory or advisory
[2:06:49] council, uh, meeting on the 17th is also canceled for the
[2:06:53] same reason I assume, to have the open meeting, the open space, uh, referendum
[2:06:58] discussion. Yeah. We're gonna move the eac to that night because they're involved with
[2:07:02] this process. Okay. Parks and rec committee meets, uh, october 8th
[2:07:06] and 6:00 pm municipal authority meets, uh, october 2nd
[2:07:10] at 7:00 pm zoning hearing board, uh, has no pending
[2:07:14] applications and no upcoming meetings scheduled. We did just get one today just for
[2:07:18] full disclosure. Okay. So we have, they no, we have nothing.
[2:07:23] so we, we did get an application today. If you're interested, keep your eyes
[2:07:27] on, on the, uh, website open space render refer
[2:07:32] referendum information session october 15th at 7:00 pm
[2:07:37] and this weekend, saturday community fall fest. September 20th.
[2:07:41] five. Uh, 12 to five right here on this campus. It's a lot of fun. Uh,
[2:07:46] so everybody come out for that and, uh, we're done. And I'll
[2:07:50] entertain a motion to adjourn. I make a motion to adjourn.
[2:07:54] second, do we have a motion to second for adjourn?