welcome to our Q. the whole meeting of Thursday July
the fifteenth now before we get begin this morning I'd
like to begin with an acknowledgment of the Lekwungen homelands
that we are on today ... and ... I had
a meeting of the regional mayors we gather once a
month ... and many of them we had all been
at the ... by invitation of the chiefs on Friday
at the Songhees wellness centre ... to stand with the
chiefs as they reflected on ... the vandalism that's been
taking place in our community and ... at our mayors
meeting on Tuesday many of the mers indicated that as
part of their territorially knowledge and at the beginning of
their meetings that they had read the chief statement and
so I'd like to do that ... this morning as
well as our territorial acknowledgement
so this is from all of the chiefs ... in
the South Island and they've written hi dear South Island
community members and beyond
we are writing you in the United voice of nations
to share our perspective on the recent events in the
South Island and beyond and to spread hope that we
can work together for change and a safer community
these events are brought violence and vandalism to our region
and communities the damaging of property including statues and totem
poles is unacceptable we are all residents of this region
and we need to respect each other
we are leaders of the South Island indigenous communities and
these acts are not ours we do not support them
and we do not believe in dividing communities
these acts are not medicine the fuel hate and inhibit
the healing that is so deeply needed right now the
disrespectful and damaging acts we have seen are not helping
they're perpetuating hurt hate and divide
these actions go against our teachings and are not reflective
on how we have been taught to carry ourselves as
a collective we feel the need to step in before
things continue on a destructive path
we are writing this letter because we need to work
together towards the goals that strengthen our community and bonds
with each other
we ask all residents of southern Vancouver Island and beyond
to join us on the road to healing
we need to walk together supporting each other and demonstrate
humanity
we honor those that have stood with us those who
are our allies and those who have listened and supported
us
all vandalism must stop immediately let us lock arms walk
together and look out for one another
please do not lose sight of the young ones that
we are honoring and please listen to our elders and
survivors in friendship Songhees nation Esquimalt nation Beecher bay first
nation soak nation Malahat first nation say what First Nations
starlet first nation pop which in first nation and say
come first nation
so that is our territorial acknowledgement today bringing the voices
of the chiefs are right into our into our meeting
... I need a motion to approve today's agenda thank
you councillor Loveday seconded by councillor Thornton Joe does anyone
wish to pull anything from the consent agenda
okay seeing nothing pulled ... just to give council a
heads up ... I will be leaving at the meeting
from ten fifteen until eleven fifteen hopefully no longer ...
to attend announcement today with the federal minister of transportation
and I have a speaking role I I tried to
say that I have a council meeting I can't come
but ... that didn't fly so I will be going
... councillor Dubow is acting mayor for July so he
will be in the chair ... and ... and then
I'll be back after that ... yes councillor Isitt regarding
the the agenda ... I did research to see if
some feedback in relation to U. one from some members
of the citizens working group that was involved in the
villages in corridors process ... I'm wondering if staff can
just confirm when they notified members of that steering committee
that this item was on the agenda
through mayor helps I believe that email was sent out
earlier this week to the working group
thank you the feedback I've heard is that because of
the very extensive work in the level of detail in
the pandas appendices that some members felt they hadn't had
sufficient time to properly review the materials in advance of
this item coming to the committee so I'm wondering whether
it might make sense to postpone consideration of U. one
for one week ... it is a pretty ... important
process for the for the neighborhoods involved ... I also
reached out to the neighborhood where I serve as the
liaison and ... the leads in that neighborhoods is away
this week and have not had a chance reviewing the
materials because I was hoping to get a temperature check
on whether this initiative was ready to move forward or
not the next stage and I would have more comfort
so I think I'll try to be as an amendment
to see where council lands I'd like to move the
item you want to move to the July twenty second
committee of the whole agenda
it is K. seconded by councillor Dubow okay Levi largely
motivated ... this is a multi year process and I
think we do have to where it's already very expedited
the some preliminary feedback I'm getting ... but I think
given it's the summer months and my understanding is that
check steering group members were notified on Tuesday they pointed
out that many of them have ... employment outside of
the volunteer duties on civic issues and they felt that
they would have more comfort reviewing the materials and being
able to provide ... comment to council a prior ...
if there was a bit more time so ... it's
council decide how to proceed okay thank you councillor Dubow
as a seconder and I'd like to speak in the
local councillor Loveday
I I think is a war so in and the
public most time to delve I don't have more understanding
so that they feel trusted the process thank you ...
I I'd I don't think that we should postpone this
for two reasons one is we have a very
... carefully organized the agendas between now and August fifth
are there is a lot that is going to be
coming to us and if we stock this ... up
... we're we're going to have that as potentially unmanageable
agendas but secondly ... this is just committee and I
think the process that we have ... is this won't
come to council until two weeks from today so that
they'll be lots of time for members of the public
to read the reports share their thoughts and for council
to make any adjustments based on that feedback so the
fact that this is a committee presentation and we've got
staff here today ... and organize the agenda in order
to hear from staff and and make some preliminary decisions
that committee ... means that they're still two weeks more
for people to give us feedback before you make a
decision so for that reason I think we should proceed
today ... and they'll be lots of time for public
input before we make a decision that council councillor Loveday
yeah I'm wondering about a
sort of something in between those two where we would
receive the presentation and ask any questions today and maybe
after ... we for motions is I think the majority
of the time will probably be on the questions I'd
just a alternate proposal where we could maybe do some
agenda management but also week to have the debate until
after we've received the the input okay I that's a
good suggestion ... so I then I would propose defeating
the motion to postpone this until next week's meeting ...
there is a lot of material just to digest today
so we could and that actually would probably help the
public because in in addition to just write reading the
reports they can watch the staff presentations they can here
are questions and then we can have the discussion about
the motion next Thursday I think that's a good suggestion
and that will probably help the public I just materials
as well yes councillor Isitt
it could be a procedurally it does require a bit
of a leap of faith of council members who favor
postponements to hope the majority will essentially vote to postpone
after the staff presentation but I guess I'm prepared to
take that leap of faith
thank you very much also known as trust okay councillor
Andrew
just to give the mover systems ... comfort hi ...
support tech councillor Loveday says suggestion as to why there
we go okay perfect all right so all those in
favor of postponing this until next week all those opposed
okay very good thank you for raising that good good
... resolution of that issue ... any further proposed changes
to the agenda
okay seeing none all those in favor any opposed none
opposed that carries first order of business is to approve
the consent agenda thanks counter although seconded by councillor Andrew
up for members of the public when we put items
on the consent agenda it means they will not be
discussed at our committee today but forwarded either to today's
council meeting of their time sensitive or to a two
weeks hence if they are not all those in favor
of the consent agenda any opposed okay so now we're
going to move on to village and quarter planning phase
one ... there are there's a lot of information here
... and I think that this it would be great
to ... go through and then spend time kind of
neighborhood by neighborhood so I I don't know how the
staff presentations organized but maybe we can here ... vote
at the general presentation and then feels like water and
then for and what in the north park and just
stop and dive into each of those neighbourhoods as we
go ... and then as you heard I think council's
preferences to to gather information today to have the presentations
but then to postpone consideration of the actual motions until
next Thursday for reasons stated so I am going to
welcome you both and turn it over to you
thank you and good morning mayor and members of council
my name is Marc Cittone senior planner and community planning
within today's Lauren close also senior planner with the planning
and I'll be providing a ... somewhat brief presentation on
the local area planning process for hillside Quadra friend with
the north park neighborhood so we appreciate the staff that
there is a lot of material being brought forward and
we will do that our best to summarize the key
points and answer any questions we can
but the purpose sorry
okay
the purpose of this report is to summarize engagement and
analysis from the last second stage of it public engagement
to summarize the proposed planning and design directions these are
not finalized directions but rather ... what has been proposed
for the next round of consultation with the public and
to seek directions for that next phase of engagement
we believe we're now at a point in the process
we were ready to provide draft neighbourhood plans to the
community for their review and comment this follows two rounds
of public engagement involving over two thousand participants and thousands
more who dropped into virtually or in person over the
past two years
50
I'm going to provide a bit of a summary of
the second phase of engagement from fall twenty twenty through
March twenty twenty one this was one of our most
substantial engagements the city held during covert in which we
pioneered new approaches to at and learned a lot along
the way it also incorporated a more robust approach to
equity and representation consistent with the terms for this project
as well as the emerging equity framework
building on early engagement which started pre covert the city
embarked on virtual planning workshops in lieu of a traditional
in person workshop for sure at this gave us the
chance to work with a diverse group of community members
to develop concepts for broader engagement
this was followed by in a primarily virtual engagement process
spanning December to March of this year sixty four hundred
people engaged with our online content of which two thousand
people ... explored online resources watch videos and over six
hundred took surveys this was paralleled with focus groups and
virtual meetings which allowed us to reach a broad cross
section of the community and included a focus on equity
seeking populations
a community led planning also occurred with for example in
north park neighborhood association survey garnering almost two hundred responses
and an equity study and public land study submitted by
the hillside quarter community association
in comparison to previous neighbourhood processes we reached a range
of ages incomes and household types and housing ten years
if not entirely representative of the community of the demographics
we're confident that we reached a broad range that represented
all members of our community surveys did well with the
H. twenty four to forty five age range including families
with children at home which are demographics that have typically
been underrepresented in neighborhood planning process if not in city
wide process and renters represented about one third of our
respondents
the process was also promoted by various means including a
mailer to all households owners and businesses radio print and
online media and thousands of fliers distributed real world opportunities
were provided to interact with content and provide feedback
I'll speak to what we heard what we learned and
keep policy proposals in four areas housing urban villages sustainable
mobility and public space
for housing ... that some of the key thermal key
themes we heard included a desire for varied housing opportunities
in our neighborhoods there was widespread support for affordable housing
options and general support for a range of choices including
rental ownership and family sized housing some participants did want
to focus on specific incomes household types or housing scales
and many supported at the density to support affordable options
there was general support for housing your transit amenities in
villages support very ... for different areas somewhat one of
the most interesting themes that encourage emerged in our engagement
was a desire to have multi family and rental options
not just on busy arterial corridors but on quieter streets
and for many this was seen as an equity issue
providing renters and those who want to live in multi
family housing including families with a range of choices for
the types of environment they can live in and so
there were some critique ... the the messaging of corridors
based on that concern
there was also a concern to minimize displacement of existing
rental buildings and renters
as we grow and change as a city we heard
interesting car like living options but also need for mobility
choices including that some need to drive for life Styler
job ... there was an emphasis on design for it
neighborliness but also designed for liveability for residents and a
desire for housing to be accompanied by investments in amenities
and green space finally we did hear comments on the
desire for equitable housing opportunities across the region and this
was often expressed as a perception that some places were
not accommodating their quote unquote fair share of multi family
affordable housing
it's
so part of what we learned was presented in the
housing futures report as communicated their significant pent up demand
for housing scene in the lower house information rate a
low vacancy rate households in unseasonably sized homes and to
continue to exit of people from Victoria proper as a
form families and we also expect the region to continue
to grow by about one percent per year as we
indicated in the housing futures presentation the capacity of the
current OCP is thought to be about fifteen to thirty
percent short to meet the needs for the next twenty
years and I noting this is a someone updated figure
we also conduct conducted economic analysis ... under financial viability
of rental housing as some of the pre work for
the rental housing strategy and we discovered that for rental
housing to be viable ... absent financial incentives it often
needs a bit more density than our current urban residential
place designation allows ... this is not the case everywhere
for example in desirable places where rent ... might be
a bit higher or areas with lower land values or
with reduced and ... surface or tuck under parking rather
than structured parking the current OCP densities may be sufficient
to support rental we also found that parking ratios above
one space per about two units will be challenging for
us to be financially viable
and we also conducted some urban design testing which will
speak more to regarding design guidelines
the key directions proposed for consultation includes several changes to
urban place designations to make room for diverse housing options
first some areas near transit corridors and urban villages are
proposed to be changed from traditional residential to urban residential
land use
second within these areas some areas are recommended to consider
a bit more density up to two point five to
one floor space ratio where housing benefits or public amenities
can be provided this is a density that comfortably fits
within five to six story buildings depending on lot size
and consistent with the proposed design guidelines
finally in some areas where people expressed wanting to live
in wanting more housing options are recommended to consider a
new mixed density designation which would allow buildings up to
approximately four stories with proper transitions and this is reflected
in the density of up to approximately one point six
to one floor space ratio and a smaller footprint building
so putting it all together there are some changes recommended
to for consultation
and during that process we would also consider areas within
urban residential where the application of residential rental tenure rezoning
might be appropriate to support rental housing
based on our consultation and urban design work the key
directions are also proposing some updates to design guidelines primarily
for both livability and neighborliness this includes recommended setbacks and
transitions I it supports green and leafy streets as the
image we want on a residential streets as well as
corridors and some of the direction further prioritizes green space
over parking we know tree canopy coverage has increased by
about nine to thirteen percent in these neighborhoods and we'd
like to see that continue in tandem with recent changes
to the to the tree preservation bylaw and planting standards
D. directions also propose some building designs which would be
appropriate for busy streets are quieter streets to support livability
such as courtyard housing forms
the second topic is urban villages our planning for fifteen
minutes neighborhoods and the objectives of these plans are to
support daily needs close to home opportunities for local business
and more joyful public spaces within our neighborhoods
we heard that there's a strong value for walkable villages
for their diverse local and multicultural businesses and services and
culture we also heard that some parts of the neighborhoods
are too far to walk easily to the south offerings
and that so I consistent with analysis ... we know
there's a desire for public spaces in all villages particularly
in north park and Quadra villages that are accessible to
all residents and many supported additional densities where these amenities
could be provided there's also a desire for better pedestrian
connectivity for supporting our urban forest and for a good
architectural interface with the public realm
for businesses we heard that parking management public seating and
diverse commercial unit sizes are important and we heard a
general concern that small business is not be priced out
whether it's by new developments or simply by rising rents
as part of this process we conducted a retail study
to look at what ... the retailing and service needs
of the community would be in twenty forty one and
we learned that Victorians will support about a fifteen to
twenty six percent growth in retail and services over the
next twenty years
we know that some areas are more than a fifteen
minute walk from larger villages and that some of these
areas show strong potential for village expansion
we also learned through economic analysis that the OCP densities
in large urban villages maybe marginally viable right now for
commercial and rental commercial buildings with rental residential included and
that are densities in smaller villages at four stories are
viable for commercial with strata residential but perhaps not for
rental we also learned the parking requirements may impede an
incremental changes and that's because of parking requirements often drive
the need for underground parking in villages which requires larger
floor plates intends to encourage assemblage
so based on what we heard we've proposed some changes
to make room for thoughtful expansion enhancement and growth of
our villages
and I'll run through just the key themes for each
of the three major villages here we know there's a
lot of content and so will will keep it high
level for quarter village one of the key themes is
to maintain the small foot print pattern where it exists
we noticed small store fronts small commercial spaces are valued
and that there's ... on ownership pattern that's quite varied
and so ... speaking to one of the main ways
we can support this is a proposal to remove parking
requirements from smaller mixed use buildings so that over time
area decisions can lead to reinvestment in smaller lots rather
than driving the consolidation for larger buildings with larger developments
we know there are also larger sites and the plans
envision if re development should occur on the sites that
there are amenities that people would like to see in
these neighborhoods as well as diverse housing we also recognize
that there's a strong desire for hillside Avenue to be
a more pedestrian friendly spaces and that the village can
better turn the corner
four what's it for quarter west UNC along kings road
west the plans envision a future mixed income community with
on site amenities for residents as well as new public
spaces and also support the evolution of a courtroom use
where the lane way over time to transition into a
more pedestrian friendly public space with opportunities for additional housing
as well as businesses and makerspaces
with the north park village the key directions also proposed
maintaining the small foot print ... pattern of ownership and
buildings that's important but also it enabling some larger and
medium sized developments to support a public plaza public space
and diverse housing we know there's currently ... a lot
of surface parking in the village and so there may
be evolution over the coming decades so it's up to
the market
we also have developed directions to use place making to
of all of what could become a permanent closet to
meet that desire people express for public gathering space and
to enhance greenery and sidewalks which requires either new development
or re purposing of the roadway ... there's a desire
to turn the corner to better connect psychologically Franklin green
park ... for people when you're visiting the village and
to encourage the retention and revitalization of the remaining light
industrial and artisan spaces along north Park Street not just
as a reflection of the history of this neighborhood but
for the future to provide good jobs to provide space
for the arts
for for in wood village ... the key directions call
for enabling the village to incrementally expand over time with
a small scale feel and buildings generally no more than
four stories ... the the key directions propose a commercial
desired approach to some area which would seek new buildings
that can accommodate commercial and services at the ground floor
but could also be flexible to accommodate residential so that
the the addition of housing is not stymied ... there
is the directions call for better connecting for an would
square to Gladstone Avenue and to green spaces with ...
better pedestrian connections public seating and amenities to allow the
future expansion of the belfry theatre or or a cultural
space and to update the guidelines the design guidelines with
an eye to heritage sensitivity
for other villages ... that are proposed there are several
small villages income community corner is proposed to serve areas
that are more than a fifteen minute walk from larger
villages now ... baystreet is proposed accommodate some commercial nodes
as well as diverse housing supporting frequent transit and enhancing
the the feel and the the pedestrian and green the
static of the street I'm a future High Street has
been envisioned a quadrant told me which is supported by
the area population particularly to the north ... and in
footprint would be somewhat smaller than Haultain corners if it
were to fall that's envisioned and then ... an interesting
idea that came from local residents was a community corners
in your friend list and hi if you to create
a place for a community focal point in the space
for local serving businesses for place making and so forth
regarding sustainable mobility is the key directions ... look to
further and support the go Victoria sustainable mobility plan a
key implementation step is to conduct quarter studies to better
lamb line land use and urban design to determine ...
what sorts of right of way are needed to accommodate
our sustainable mobility future an urban forest along those corridors
and what kind of setbacks could be accommodated and that
would be done with existing local you're planning funds for
transportation I streets as greener places for people and a
couple of the directions that support go Victoria are to
modernize our parking requirements again to support rental housing as
well as smaller footprint commercial mixed use options end of
managing on street parking to better balance the needs of
businesses as well as residents and in four environment so
we can have more vibrant villages the plans also propose
additions to our green Waye system to better connect homes
parks and other destinations within our neighborhoods
regarding parks amenities and open spaces
what one of the important notice that local area planning
is not the primary means by which the city plans
major parks investments but rather does are based on the
parks and open spaces master plan ... individual park improvement
plans that are done periodically and the priorities set by
council ... through strategic plan and through the financial plan
but local area planning does provide us the ability to
look for opportunities on larger sites for public space to
identify needs ... and to look for gaps in our
system one of the proposals is to support ... the
formalization of green space ... in hillside Quadra south hillside
Avenue where the population is most diverse and where multi
family housing it is located on to expand or in
your community center space is consistent with the strategic plan
... an important point we heard through our consultation was
that there's a strong desire to locate spaces for indigenous
gathering and cultural practice in the center of our region
... and the the ... not so much ... space
in ... commotion Lansdowne campus with sometimes cited ... but
there's a feeling that there isn't a dedicated space ...
for indigenous practice and celebration that there are indigenous people
of many nations living in these neighborhoods and that the
center region is very accessible ... for people and so
it's something we'd like to keep in mind there was
also a desire to consider location for small scale outdoor
music events whether it's youth events or something its biggest
quarter village days and to make those easier happen and
so that's something we can explore through our upcoming music
strategy ... we know there's interest in looking for opportunities
... ten corporate rock big creek or the historic rocky
creek into public or private lands and to continue to
support community gardening efforts through growing in the city
the next steps that are proposed are to bring these
key directions in the form of draft plans and design
guidelines to the community for robust engagement phase ...
this engagement phase would emphasize a variety of opportunities for
input depending on one's interest with higher or more in
depth levels of information and ability to provide feedback as
well as shorter ... ways to to both get information
and provide feedback to use video and different promotional means
to appeal to different people and to focus on both
virtual ... engagement which has been very successful in bridging
the gap to some of our demographics and in person
opportunities
the key to read the key recommendations are summarized here
and ... that will conclude my presentation thank you very
much Mr Sisson thank you very much and as close
as well so council as noted will just have questions
but but also I think ... comments will be in
order ... just because it would be odd to just
have questions for a long time so if people want
to just give their general impressions or feelings or profits
... question with a comment that's okay so again kind
of like we did with the strategic plan more of
a workshop feel especially since we will be debating motions
today so there's a lot to dig into a and
maybe I'll start I'll start with council rise it'll look
for others and maybe just to keep some variety not
have one person holding the floor for awhile starts cancer
as a go to concerts or enjoy everyone will have
ample opportunity so don't feel like your first time to
speak is your only time to speak accounts are as
it go ahead
thank you ... it's clear that in the a lot
of work has gone into this so I wanna thank
staff for ... the the very high quality ... work
both preparing these documents ... also the level of engagement
... I heard ... some from some neighborhoods ... representatives
I've heard that they feel the the plan is ready
to move forward and ... from others ... the to
do feel that the experience for them has been something
short of what ... the perceived Victoria west and print
site gorge and Fairfield is getting an
reading those comments made me question the wisdom of council's
decision to sort of combine these three neighborhoods into a
single process ... something I've also heard from Fernwood is
that the ... person from from some from what residents
is that ... they think it's problematic that different park
these busy different sides of their neighbourhood are hived off
into different processes so unlike north park in court hillside
Quadra which this is sort of an integrated planning process
even though it's bundled with other neighborhoods for firmware they
have to wait til the next phase to have the
fourth street corridor ... discussed and then they have to
wait for the fees after that I believe the new
facing might involve Oaklands in the next phase but essentially
the northern and southern limits of that affirm whether or
not actually part of this process so for some for
and what residents and community leaders it's felt like a
disjointed process ... and they wonder about the viability of
achieving an updated neighbourhood plan given that sort of just
jointed nature ... I guess an issue that's come up
previously to is ... with Covidien a lack of opportunity
for in person meetings ... I guess question has there
been sufficient engagement to move to the stage of drafting
a plan so I guess if Mr Cittone could maybe
just to address those questions that I guess the disk
jointed nature of the process and Fernwood
... the potential negative impacts of the bundling the freak
three neighborhoods versus the more room robust and focus project
that process of the other neighborhoods that previously ... and
then ... just because of it and and whether some
additional engagement prior to drafting the plan might be advisable
but thank you councillor in through mayor helps up regarding
the first question I try to keep all three questions
in mind ... I believe it's about bundling a bundling
the neighborhoods out there one of the key reasons we
proposed ... tackling these particular three neighborhoods together in the
past we've always had two or three neighbourhood planning process
he's going on at once I believe we had ...
request and Fairfield in Gonzales and then that will consolidate
process he split off and the way our neighborhood boundaries
and we know that it's been ... a subject of
discussion in the community ... but the way our neighborhood
boundaries are drawn and the way we interact with people
cross those boundaries whether it's to take their children to
elementary school or to access ... cultural opportunities are businesses
in the next neighborhood ... on our working group alone
we've had renters with moved from one neighborhood to another
during the process ... simply because of ... their their
living situation assassinated that ... so we see a lot
of inter twined between these neighborhoods and I think the
discussion for example that's going on in for an within
north park I mean it's been very beneficial for us
to talk about both of those neighbourhoods together so for
our process it's fairly in material where that boundary lies
because we're consulting on what kind of place people would
like in north park village and what kind of opportunities
people would like for living and for moving around on
those neighbourhoods so we as staff feel like the bundling
has been a very positive thing ... we understand there
are some concerns about the final product which will be
a neighbourhood plan and that ... in the in the
case of Fernwood up parts of that southern part of
for an would south of Pandora Avenue are incorporated into
a comprehensive planning process for fort St ... we've left
Haultain corners ... to be consulted through the Oaklands process
it's some
I think that we've always had to do and I
think when we when we did the Gonzalez plan in
fact we signaled that we weren't consulting on oak bay
Avenue village during that process because that would be consulted
on at the same time it's two billion so there's
perhaps no ... no one answer to how to divide
these these areas and then the last one was cold
within the lack of opportunities for in person engagement and
whether some additional engagement might be advisable before moving towards
drafting the plans
yeah as far as as in person engagement of course
during covert ... it was challenging to do in person
engagement and we did ... some things like a a
socially distance walk shop as part of our workshops we
were able to supplement ... that desire with a number
of online focus groups which reached I believe for a
total of over two hundred people both with focus groups
same that at ... sometimes less engage groups like newcomers
like youth high school students ... renters as well as
... you know just community residents and and business groups
... business owners and then our ... online engagement we've
certainly heard there are people who value
the feel of in person engagement the the dialogue we've
heard from some homeowners who want to hear more from
renters they may not trust what we're hearing ... but
overall we also feel that the online engagement and it's
also something we've heard has given demographics who didn't participate
robustly in the past a chance to participate we've had
meetings where ... there there is ... you parents of
young children who turn off their camera to ... do
what they need to do to take care of their
children and we're still able to participate and so we
believe there have been positives as well that what we'd
like to do in the next round because of being
able to open up is to continue the positives of
virtual engagement while incorporating more of that in person touch
... we also recognize that there are topics that people
... because planning is an ongoing process these topics that
people want through in person engagement to build community to
work with our neighbourhoods team to talk about where community
gardens might be or how they can use a growing
in the city grant and so we know those conversations
will continue to happen ... but that the the local
area planning process will give us the ability to update
our OCP in a timely manner to address some of
the key issues were facing as a society around sustainability
around our housing needs around public space while allowing all
of those conversations to continue ... through ongoing city support
and programs thank you mayor helps how much did you
wanna limit each so what are you ask one more
question yeah so it's good ... sure very minor so
maybe I'll just ask them almost more technical and then
maybe a little bit more substantial one in this it
gives me a summary ... there's a map it's the
map of the greenways and parks
... she knows what's not in there so the what
I think in the what's next so what's proposed
... just confirming is the last page but maybe another
attachment yeah if you could give us ... the attachment
letter and then the page number sure page eight of
the back to see I usually don't use the software
attachment be
AJ to attach and be okay
... just looking at the ... I think it's very
positive the new green ways that have been identified and
I think they do reflect the pattern of people living
in those neighborhoods ...
so I think knowledge ment of that is good to
help to target future investment ... future planting of trees
and other ...
amenities to transform those into kind of linear parks
him broke street the city in the past has invested
quite a bit of money at the intersection of ...
Pembroke and big B. and the area that we call
up big big green although maybe we re visit that
naming choice based on some recent information from island health
with respect to their former big be building but it's
a little tension toll but ... yeah just wondering why
Pembroke isn't shown is extending ... essentially all the way
into the jubilees because it does seem to function it
is I think already a green way in terms of
there's a
... I'm not sure if it's a fully signalized crosswalk
in terms of the district pedestrian control signal but there's
a fairly substantial marked crosswalk at Pembroke and Shelburne then
there's a park and then all of those side roads
towards ... fort street and to the hospital kind of
function is pretty calm so you're suggesting the green the
green way should continue right into all the way to
the probably even for came up a chunk going to
the jubilee hospital sort of due east and then probably
going down one of those roads chess not or the
next one where that new seniors complexes going
at that time is it just has that has not
been on staff's reader screen yeah it's a good question
... and I think I may have to look to
make transportation colleagues I believe they've been ... one or
two different routes identified as ... the the most appropriate
route to continue East West mobility through their ... and
we know you know green ways and things like bicycle
routes don't always overlap ... but yeah that's exactly I
think in presenting this to the community the kind of
feedback we want to hear I know we've also recently
done upgrades to Denman so that also has better East
West active transportation connectivity but I think also Shakespeare street
the hill goes up quite a bit when you go
to
so the Pembroke so I think most pedestrians would choose
the fairly gentle grade of Pembroke ... I think also
Pembroke going to the west towards downtown I think it's
very supportable it so I have a friend who uses
a wheelchair and it is one of the most gentle
grades in the neighborhood so from the accessibility standpoint I
think considering Pembroke all the way from rock bay from
just down here all the way to the jubilee hospital
is in East West green way and eventually achieving some
crossing across Blanchard I think is good policy ... my
only other note on a green way there is in
the western end so we look this topaz park in
the north and it runs through the topaz campus of
Victoria high school and then down through evergreen terrace and
it shows a proposed greenway extending down ... dollar so
it's a dotted line going south that ends at Pembroke
um as someone who lives not too far from there
that does function as a green way right into the
downtown and then takes the the Hudson news between Chatham
street and Fitchburg and so I realize that's in the
downtown but I think it's I think to showing that
north south connection being the green week connection into the
downtown even write to city hall would reflect existing patterns
of mobility
so ... does I guess I'll save my next one
for the next round thank you thank you and ...
just a question on process ... so councillor Isitt's made
that suggestion how do councillors that the how to councillor
suggestions get kind of taken as as feedback as well
or is it come is is kind of a workshop
be kind of the opportunity for us to like for
like that that suggestion and others that councillors may make
our staff noting down this is kind of quote unquote
public consultation with council
I I may differ to council for that I suppose
this is one of two ways ... that could be
on it could be two to bring if you these
proposals to the public and see what else we here
as well and then start adding things in or or
modifying things or if council ... so chooses to ...
proposed sent some refinement or a different approach to it
before we bring something to the public ... I don't
know if I these have anything more to to say
to that but I would defer to council yeah I
think what what what I what I don't want to
get into it is ... a motion to make the
Green Line extend two more blocks ... that would just
be would be really getting into the weeds but I
think ... in past neighbourhood planning process easier has been
and I'm kind of glad that that the state has
shaken out as it has because this is like let's
consider this a workshop with council and then decisions next
weekend so maybe just note down that kind of input
I don't think anyone we don't need to change the
plans before they go to council but ... before they
go to the public but this feedback from council today
can can help inform the final plans just as the
public input on the plans well okay thank you I
councillor Thornton Joe counselor Loveday and then I'll look for
others yeah yeah thank you ... for the presentation and
I agreed that ... there's tremendous amount of work that's
been obviously been put into it and engagement I was
really happy to see some of the groups that perhaps
... haven't often been ... engaged ... that that that
percentage has gone up ... but I also am concerned
about term you know what through a cold it I
have heard from folks that say I have no technical
ability I captain zoom meeting or you know what do
I do a phone call or can we meet the
park in the distance ... I've I've heard people say
that they have not really left their house in the
whole time because of
of some form of you know
the concerns of of of being high at risk so
I you know I think ... as as we're are
are opening up I'd like to see an opportunity to
do a little bit more in person ...
and especially getting also not necessary from where we are
right now but also being able to give a little
bit of background as well for those individuals that may
have felt left out so ... because of you know
the some precedent time with all of that
so that was so my my first comment ... or
and this is the second comment ... I had I
I was really pleased to see the discussion about ...
indoor and outdoor spaces for indigenous gatherings and cultural practices
Sam
and I I thought
well firstly when I look at ... the hillside Quadra
area I know ... a few folks that ... live
in that area and they use the is of the
estate will assign a lots was still called but the
the fields as sort of their green area to kick
a soccer ball or go for a Walker ... so
you know I think in the future whether that some
partnership or discussions with the school district on on some
of that land ... but
also I I don't know is from the staff for
aware but across the street is the spot come house
which is ... and did you miss a housing for
women and I know that ... they often go across
the street to do some some you know whether it's
... ...
the talks whether it's some outdoor opportunities and so there
that might be an opportunity to consider and partner with
some of some organizations ... for that but ... yeah
I think they're the report covered a lot of areas
of ...
... that serve interested today roots and so that's all
I have to say for now I'll see what others
say thank you thanks councillor Thornton Joe councillor Loveday pots
and then young
thank you very much for all your work on this
and and also to the
... many members of the public that were involved in
getting feedback and ideas so far I'm
a couple of questions that are more broad strokes and
then a couple more
localized once I'm so one question that I think we
will continue to come up is I. as we look
to see a redevelopment in uh village centers particularly I
you know looking at this site I think of north
park and Quadra village which are ... this is part
of what makes them such great places is that they
have affordable rents and that ... that attracts diverse and
interesting ...
organizations and businesses to the ... to the store fronts
so as this plan ... could envision redevelopment of the
sites how are there tools within ...
the planning process that could allow us to protect the
... you know against gentrification essentially adds as the development
occurs
yes thank you councillor in through mayor helps it's it's
certainly ... a critical question and it's one we've looked
at and and wrestled with an looked at best practices
that are are within the purview of of municipal government
in BC and some of the the strategies that we
would be explained further that are being proposed for for
consultation include ... really valuing ... that that small footprint
ownership pattern and so ... as happened in high streets
are main streets in the past you know if the
building is aging or ... maybe a long term lease
is up and the owner is looking to do something
different ... right now contemporary parking standards tend to drive
a larger assemblage because there's certain economics and certain footprint
that's needed to build underground parking and so looking at
more of the ways high streets involved in the past
where you know what I don't or may choose to
redevelop ... with a commercial storefront or two and perhaps
two or three or four stories of of housing perhaps
rental housing above ... and then to look at ...
within you development the policies call for looking at a
diversity of commercial unit sizes up some of the things
we've heard from businesses there are emerging businesses or sole
proprietor ... hair care for instance where they just really
need a hundred fifty to three hundred square feet another
idea that emerge from businesses was the value of public
seating that's not tied to one business but a quality
public realm that welcomes all so that ... a food
business doesn't have to lease enough space to have lots
of indoor seating or an emerging business can be take
out only and there's a place around the corner that's
comfortable to set ... so it's certainly ... you know
one of those questions ... a lot of vacant units
L. these grapple with this and ... there's opportunities to
emphasize redevelopment around the village in the donut
so to speak ... as well ... these plants look
to kind of take a balanced approach and so not
to increase the density available through the OCP in villages
and to focus on ... some of the characteristics of
villages that can continue to provide diversity of spaces over
time ... and maybe look to some of our surface
parking over the next two decades as opportunities to grow
... what's happening in the villages
thanks yeah I to me that some
I look forward to how that engagement shakes out and
what tools get built into the plan I just ...
that's one of my
major concerns and priorities ... if we're looking at at
north park village and ... I love the idea of
a plaza and I'm wondering how ... the ball moral
site was chosen rather than a different street
check thank you for that question through the mayor ...
see it the north park site was actually the first
site chosen and that was during our workshop service sort
of charrette process and it kind of came out through
the community in conversations with the the planners and urban
designers were there and also as a a space that
was starting to evolve a little bit with that bill
back toria patios on the street already and so we
kind of draft up that design and then as we
took that idea out to the broader public and sort
of the next up of engagement we heard some concerns
from some of the businesses about access for deliveries and
... limited parking in the area and so the suggestion
of Balmoral is another good opportunity ... came up as
well ... I I think it was largely because I
had good space on the street and would still good
... access and connectivity to the neighborhood ... and then
beyond that there's also up the speaking ... being considered
near a royal athletic park ... near the tiny home
site and so that was sort of a third ideas
all of these ideas are are sort of out there
now and we're trying to document them all through this
process and eventually in the plan as an opportunity for
businesses are community members to come through with something that's
very community led and something that works for the neighborhood
itself but city supported ... through your place making another
programs
great in looking at the
all moral
site I guess one of my questions is ... just
with
the
the developments there aren't as active ... on the street
front is the other
locations where you do have that in the fine green
retail ends ...
yep so off like I I think
you know I I'd always thought of the
the north north park site is ... it has potential
plaza so surprised to see that but I'm I am
also very glad to that there's a plaza envisioned I
think that that I'm high quality public space within north
park will go a long way to building the village
... one question on
looking at design of street scapes ... and pedestrian friendly
yes ... of the idea of ball boats in say
how would that ... interplay's with cycling in just wondering
how that ... yeah overlays with ... cycle ability in
design
okay
I could
the because of the the higher level nature of the
the local area plans we didn't wrestle specifically with those
we know it's something that can be considered ... through
more refined design or ... quarter studies I may look
to our transportation ... colleagues to elaborate if this is
more to say on that Mr Bellefontaine
it can I guess eight thank you I would yeah
I think you please and ... without looking at ...
just the the longer term vision of cook street I
guess Pacific Lee
Cooksey through north park village yes exactly yeah
Dylan Thomas can you test years do you have power
either
yes we have okay
we
okay and then out a break we'll see about power
to planning and engineering all departments need power thank you
if you could repeat the question about I think I
understood I think the ... disk the question is about
the ...
... the ability to introduce curb bulges brought up the
same time ensuring we turned to Saddam to cyclists is
that the
yes and so in the context of the longer term
vision for cook street specifically through the north park village
right yes I mean that does this kind of two
layers to this there is the ... very rubber hits
the roads detailed design component to that ... so that
when we ought when if we're looking at pedestrian curb
bulges ... ... to improve sightlines between parking for example
and to reduce the distance the pedestrians have to cross
... when there is ... when there are bicycle facilities
that we do take that into account so that we
don't squeeze for cyclists and force them to ... ...
have to compete with it ... vehicles unless of course
we have designated that routes has already a shed cycling
... the vehicle type ... corridor the cook street is
an arterial road so you know the future that would
likely be separated bicycle lanes with with through traffic ...
as as you heard already that that that the specific
designed sort of elements to that ... having pain sort
of looked at as part of this process but ...
we would always be very ... mindful that in whatever
was proposed that we would be protecting our ability to
introduce more ... high level by school facilities in the
future that was a little bit of a roundabout response
but it's something that would be very much top of
mind for us I think that that's some good enough
for now and when we get to the fine detailed
design and
that'll be great to learn more ... just wanted to
flag it I guess and ... on the
one more question ... handed off ... moving to Quadra
village ...
I thank you know I think one of the priorities
he's the
the maintenance of an arts site ... you know the
rocks he plays a big role in ...
looking at the the plan calls for more ... heights
within the middle of the village I believe ... in
looking at if there were to be a a redevelopment
that would be able to ... have enough size to
have a new theater ... for new artists facility ...
it it may need to move towards that the corner
at hillside so I'm wondering if ... if that
I guess how the conversations about height and density ...
factor into the discussion of the Roxy sites specifically and
... what is anticipated
... what tools are anticipated to be able to allow
for the maintenance of something ... either the Roxy were
a site you know the rocks the site being continued
in its art arts use
yeah thank you and through mayor helps some kind of
turning over in my mind this is that numerous aspects
it to how we support the arts in the local
area planning is is just one way to look for
opportunities in the case of the Roxy we saw two
things come together which was from the community side we
know that that theater while at the love card of
the neighborhood was not suiting the needs of the current
users and is at risk and so ... do it
there's already that the idea in the community for a
what could this look like as a more modern performance
space and that coincided with our ... arts and culture
master planning which has identified the need for a two
hundred fifty to three hundred seat venue I believe ...
as part of our our cultural ecosystem and so we
looked at through the the the workshop process out what
would it mean to try to retain a theater use
into the future and is that something that could be
incorporated into a future development perhaps as an amenity space
... we know that's probably ... a pretty expensive amenity
we haven't you know run any financial figures on that
and so we consulted with the community ... you know
would did the community be in favor of considering it
done additional density if a space ... that continued that
cultural function was included whether under current Roxy site or
perhaps and one of the other large sites and ...
you know there were there were a range of of
opinions on that I would say all all in all
of our survey participants were supportive ... there were you
know some who wanted to also see diverse housing opportunities
and that some who felt their oxy should remain but
they weren't comfortable with additional density to to deliver that
amenity ... and then there are I take it all
this possibilities for something like that to work in conjunction
with a non profit or possibly with the city throughout
an arts and culture
her role and so ... they did local area plan
has identified that as a desired amenity ... but hasn't
gone too far beyond just sketching out some some rough
ideas of maybe what something like that might look like
to help people envision it and not really get into
the site planning or nitty gritty of that this is
so with that in looking at this the feedback he
was ...
a positive to the idea of making so for sixty
percent with for six stories we're more which I think
is some
I'm pretty strong feedback at an early stage so I'm
I'm wondering I guess would do the corner site then
would put and I'm trying to ... understand ... the
two parts one that says the density closer to the
middle of the village and then also the strong support
for retaining and arts site and the are the rocks
is not on the corner but it's ... close to
the corner and so I think if you were having
a multi site development of some sort it would probably
move to the corner of and and so that's why
I'm just wondering if the current plan would allow that
through mayor helps any apologies I didn't completely touched a
question the plan we would certainly allow that the plan
does look for a small public space at that corner
as well because it's a very well used ... transit
exchange as well as ... trying to anchor a little
bit ... that ... that intersection which feels like you're
sort of leaving the village right now when you get
there but ... yet the plan is fairly ... agnostic
to wear on the site something like the Roxy will
woodland and that would be something that I think would
be negotiated if it comes up through a development proposal
or or ... you know action of the city or
whatnot thank you very much I ended up for now
thank you I've added you down later on ... on
the list councillor Potts is next and then counselor young
thanks a for a for all this work in and
certainly for what you've been able to accomplish and certainly
challenging time for engagement it's really exciting to look at
all these plans and see at what can be a
what is being envisioned for the next steps of of
building the city ... most of my comments will be
around north park in our in questions but just to
start off just for by my understanding and help framing
questions moving forward ... eat at the outset you said
there these are not ... finalize directions and you you're
seeking directions on next steps but ... is that really
looking at the particular options that are laid out within
each report or is their option so I think that
particular look looking at north park all of the themes
and the directions are exactly what what we've been hearing
but maybe just looking at particularly some of the road
closures there might be an option for another one is
it is it well within what what you're looking for
to suggest some of those other Roglic closure ideas
through the mayor yes and that's how it that kind
of ... manifesto potentially next week when we come back
to council that would be through motion we could ...
present that idea it's also good for engagement or just
a check in like how how would that SPS advanced
the process wise yeah so that's a bit different than
drawing green lines on a map or not and I
think those kinds of directions should come from council to
staff to consult with on you know X. block being
closed as part of the next phase of engagement rather
than just hoping it comes up in the public so
what we'll do that by motion next week that's great
okay thanks for that ... because yeah yes it was
really exciting to read at the north park plan and
and just really see you got a lot of the
themes that but I've been hearing to to be reflected
within it ... but then just thinking about some of
the other things that are happening north park right now
and some of the things actually that actually is we're
in the nineteen ninety six local area plan to that
still rain true like thinking about how I'm planning around
concentrations of social housing projects and we're seeing a lot
more that and releasing a desire within the neighborhood to
really lean into that ... and in really creating an
out neighborly elements and really thinking about planning ... around
these new sites to ensure that ... in community wellness
for all so thinking ... particularly about ... the potential
of a new ... a community center and thinking about
it you know BC housing will be on the developing
that but that would just be the building but what
could the city work at the city lean into around
that to ensure that that ... and I know part
of that is it's adjacent to north park but also
downtown but just thinking about how
how ... potentially a Mason street between ... Quadra and
Vancouver there is potential for some road closure park space
there to build it thank you madam the space that
could ... extend from the community center and just really
thinking about how what a comprehensive up a plan for
that and also runs ... on Balmoral where there will
be some new I'm social housing there's been quite a
bit a desire within the community to think about what
kind of park let's and spaces could be developed around
there to build bridges between the Mason street farm area
and and that developments really again encourage ... at
encouraged great ... additions to the neighborhood with the new
neighbors ... and then also thinking about ...
there you know what I last week I council we
discussed some of the the robotic park in and community
uses and ...
it's not that is reflected with within this work but
... just wondering ... on page fifty nine under the
plan city initiatives I think since since probably this was
written there's been some changes to the strategic plans there
would need to be some updates what you're up probably
definitely aware of but just wondering if on that list
would be would there also be the inclusion of ...
investigating ... re envisioning that community use several athletic park
could that would that be added to the list as
well
... so with respect to ... that type of initiative
I think the the level of detail that this plan
is that is probably ... the probably more appropriate to
focus on the future of long term use of rough
at a park in this sort of vision development for
that facility that has been discussed with council so ...
as we look to the the financial plan ... in
made opportunities for major initiatives in the coming years ...
you'll see that staff identified that given all the discussion
that we've had with council and in the last year
so ... but I think the the sort of the
spirit of the increased use and particularly ... communities across
like park is is sort of woven into this but
... but as I say that this room larger initiative
is that the the long term plan for that facility
okay yeah I just I think there's I've just heard
some comments to make set from the community to wanna
see that really clearly reflected I will though it is
woven definitely through the document just some ... that if
it's free they feel it's really important to consider as
part of their green space and and and part of
the planning ... and then I just I really appreciated
the comments made about at the need to protect ...
rental at or aging or or the older rental stock
as we're moving forward with this plan and and and
also the comments around you know needing more multi family
housing and and and rental residential areas and more potentially
more density for some rental ... and looking at north
park they have a lot of ... privately owned rental
housing in SROs that are aging and kind of really
represents a great deal of unprotected affordable housing in the
city and I think I just wanted to make a
point of saying how yeah it's gonna be really important
within these next steps to ensure that we are able
to protect those ... ... those building so I was
actually just I guess my question is to miss his
that if ... I'm just wondering where we're at at
with ... market rental protection and revitalization project or policy
sorry or specifically that the rental property licensing bylaw and
just thinking ... thinking that as we're moving forward with
that those those are going to be really key policies
I'm
councillor Potts near your question about the ... the rental
business licensing bylaw we were hoping to bring that to
you ... in the coming weeks but we've had a
staff departure and so we will now be bringing that
work to you in early September just to allow our
new staff to get up to speed on the new
provincial legislation regarding the residential tenancy act ... so we
will have some advice ... on that in the coming
months ... and we will have some other work starting
... later in the year we had hoped that we
would ...
we would restart and I project that we did start
working on last year with respect to incentivizing ... new
purpose built rental and so we're hoping to resume that
work in the fall ... as well as the Mars
pilot project which is to consider ... size making energy
upgrades ... for rental buildings so yes all of the
things are on our radar we're hoping to start those
in the fall when we get stuffed up great great
that's really exciting I think that ... yeah as we
move forward that particular that protects that protects protection of
existing affordable rentals going to be really important ...
at the
I guess one final question before I see the floor
just wondering ... there's some elements within then but previous
local area plan and how some of those initiatives that
still ... cut ... might be carried forward and into
to the next into the next phase of plantings this
I just know that there was a strong comments around
... and maybe I'm not sure if this was hurt
at all but ... at a desire for coal opposing
within north park and also ... I'd like I'd mentioned
... planning around concentrations of social housing projects and I'm
wondering is there ... I thought to house some of
those might be carried through into the into the the
station fan of of planning or ... are those kind
of
are they not ambition to cater
thank you and through the acting mayor ... a ...
I think you those are wonderful comments we've heard the
same comments around ... ... building community around the social
housing and embracing that we've heard that a lot in
a and I hope we get to explore that as
part of north park's identity in this next phase of
engagement and ensure that it comes through very clearly in
their plans so I think that element with
be carried forward or brought to its next iteration through
this planning process ... in terms of the coop housing
... I I would I would like to probably defer
to one of my housing colleagues but I believe that's
something that we would probably consider it a city wide
scale ... in in ways that we can support that
through broad housing policy rather than through neighbourhood plan specific
to one area
that certainly makes a lot of sense okay ... I
think those are my questions ... for now but thanks
again for the work on this
consideration your next
thank you
just looking at them first of all I am sorry
I agree with them
... one of the the broad changes that's proposed the
... the idea of increasing densities along arterials
but in terms of implementation
the following questions is looking at H.
3 of
appendix
which is in appendix B. I guess proposed changes
looking at the
basically the chart shows two sets of densities one showing
approximate density which is under the official community plan and
local area plans as human then a second things showing
approximate bonus density
... which is ... and and saying inclusionary zoning and
community amenity policy and those approximate bonus densities are basically
double the approximate density so I guess my question is
is this really a plan that that says ...
we ... and this does two things inclusionary housing essentially
I think is going to mean ... these are all
rental buildings or and the community amenity policy A. I.
I guess means they are all gonna pay in order
to develop any other form of housing ... what is
is this really a plan that's basically implementing rental only
only zoning or is it a plan that's ... saying
... you can densify in these areas provided ... you
make a contribution to cash in in effect a cash
contribution given the size of the site site I think
it's
I think it's who were more likely to be talking
cash contributions rather than physical amenities ... except in a
few instances ... so so what is the plan really
intending and is there enough certainty ... about what is
intended that you're actually going to get development or will
you just get along and the gauche Yeading ... processes
as people try and figure out what we do what
what density we really mean doing mean the little density
under the plan or do we need I mean the
big density under the bonus density
thank you and directing their Dubow a D. the land
use structured that the land use proposals within the local
area plan are intended to work together with city wide
policies and what we want to do is ... because
if this is a ... looking for twenty years we
want to remain flexible to housing needs as they evolve
and city policies as they involve and so the ...
densities proposed for the base density and for the higher
density are meant to enable the application of the city's
broader policies such as the inclusionary housing and community amenity
policy ... which we know is updated from time to
time as far as what the targets that that council
would like to see it in new development are these
two densities were chosen the ... the bonus density up
to two to one floor space ratio is the current
... maximum density approximately that's in our official community plan
and the two point five to one ... emerged in
part from our economic analysis and urban design testing as
a form that fits well within which usually wood frame
construction now and provides us at the potential to really
... um C. benefits gained through the application of that
inclusionary housing and community amenity policy ... but the we
don't anticipate through local area plans having specific ... inclusionary
housing or community amenity targets different than the city wide
policies a council has enacted as well as you know
policies that made him that that our plan to emerge
from the housing strategy such as the family housing policy
... but these plans don't ... don't speak to rental
only ... the to speak to looking perhaps of how
we would apply rental residential rental ten years owning to
select areas perhaps
and
you know that may not preclude the development of other
housing types both at lower densities as we see sometimes
or Stratotankers
thank you I guess I would suggest that
the the variety of objectives that we may be trying
to achieve ... that is a rental family housing
... some some rental within a larger project is likely
to ... produce ... a situation where we we don't
get the response
we expected as because people are trying to figure out
what it is so we really want which may vary
between different council members and and ...
with one wanting family housing and one wanting low income
some within combined with condos and some wanting all rental
it's yeah I I I'm I'm concerned that ...
in fact what what would you wear them
we're defeating our objectives
anyway
the second thing that I I also agree with in
principle is the ... some of the suggestions about ...
the ...
just trying to find the reference so people can look
at it ... appendix CD ... age thirty one ...
the the concept of ... the kind of thing you
we want along arterials which is ...
basically
... who closely tighter front setbacks of fairly generous ...
rear setbacks and ... stepping back
... but again ... even even in the illustration we
see ... from over one and a half story house
... adjacent to ... five story apartment building and and
... hi ask whether
we shouldn't make some specific consideration for
greater densification in those adjacent lots of very much as
we as this council approved to that I think within
the last two or three weeks when we had a
very similar situation I guess long Quadra where somebody in
the house behind came forward and said to we want
to build a third house on the on the lot
and we said okay that's an acceptable form of densification
in in a location such as this
and and I I I think that
that is something that we should probably encourage ... at
the same time hi I really have some of very
deep concerns about one of the suggestions which is ...
random intensification in the traditional neighborhoods ... which ... is
seen as for example suggested on corner lots which I
think is seen by this plan as being a way
of producing rental accommodation in in quieter neighborhoods that I
think would be seen by many people as as basically
... taking advantage of ... some of the amenities in
a way that's not reproducible that is you build a
high building ... within a traditional neighborhood where houses are
one and a half stories high and you build a
three story building you have great views great overlook into
green space ... but
if somebody else build another one adjacent you don't have
those views are those seven
... that ... pleasant overlook anymore and also you can
have low parking because he can spread your cars all
along the street ... but again it's not reproducible and
so I guess the the argument will be made and
I've been interested in your comments that when you're suggesting
very high densities
a randomly spread through traditional neighborhoods you really allowing a
...
these new units to take advantage of the amenities that
are being provided by those ... traditional neighborhoods in a
way that ... reduces their level of amenity that is
you get the the nice overlook from the new buildings
but the older building is now overlooked and it's the
usefulness of its backyard is reduced
... I don't don't know if you'd like to comment
on that
thank you councillor in through the acting mayor of as
one consideration for what's been proposed in that that the
areas we've identified as mixed density areas and those are
areas we heard from many stakeholders as places where people
wanted to have opportunities to live in multi family housing
be that strata rental ... you know certainly there's interest
from from renters ... as well ... we looked carefully
at through some act through some urban design testing what
kind of densities can be achieved ... in these areas
in a way that still allows step downs ... that
allows the setbacks we're looking for not just on corridors
but on all sites ... and so ... studios are
being incorporated into the design guidelines certainly ... it's a
question we'll be asking ... when we go out for
the next round of engagement as far as the level
of support ... for those ideas but ... we're definitely
because of that that's where the density ... limit that
we've proposed came from and we know it's one that
maybe just on the cusp of viability for market rental
housing ... but certainly supports ... the ability to slowly
or perhaps I should say incrementally incorporate ...
okay family housing in those areas
thank you just one more sort of narrow question height
he said I thought I saw somewhere in all this
material and I didn't know where some suggestion that the
... Fernwood square ... would now who would in in
... trying to ... sort of increase the vitality of
that square would now allow ... ... vehicles to transit
either one way or the other along Gladstone west of
west confirmed would
is is that was that a suggestion ... was being
made or not
re ... re opening as you as you re opening
the square on the west side
oh no through the acting mayor sorry I
that may be because of the perspective of the drawing
that it is yeah I know that that
no okay okay thank you
anyone else
okay mark oh yeah hi consuls and I'll tell thank
you very much
unlike the others all ... thank you for your of
remarkable working presentations ... so much information and many of
my questions have been asked and answered I just had
a couple of small ones ...
in the ... I think it's appendix B. the one
that looks at what's coming
... you make a reference and I think it's on
the second to last slide slide seven there's a reference
there to modernizing parking requirements he did speak a little
bit to this is your answer to council of this
question earlier but I wonder if you could just explain
a bit more about what you imagine that would look
like
thank you and through acting mayor I may start this
one off of the from the the look like a
planning perspective and if our transportation colleagues have ... broader
at ways of addressing this but to two of the
things that emerge specifically ... towards local area planning we
talked about both parking management referring to the public ...
parking supply to seventy thousand on street spaces we have
and ... parking modernization of the requirements for new development
and one thing we saw in our economic testing and
in looking at urban design ... is that too two
of the objectives a few of the practice rather of
of the local area plans ... there's some tension with
the way parking may or may not be treated ...
and two of the forms in particular we were looking
at is one supporting rental housing and to supporting ...
debility for incremental or small scale change within villages and
those both require a modernization of how we look at
parking requirements ... in rental in particular we found that
when you get really above one space per two units
... it becomes very financially difficult to achieve market rental
housing ... but interestingly through variance ... we tend not
to see much more parking than that if that much
so it's very in line with ... what we're actually
seeing recently the trend and so we look particularly at
those two aspects of modernization I think a third area
where this comes up and it speaks to compatibility with
the neighborhoods is that ... one thing we've been hearing
loud and clear in multiple engagements is that people value
because we don't have lane ways in particular and most
of the Tor yet that interior block pattern of green
spaces where the the so
... is more than that the parts and ... so
wanting to reiterate that without ... pushing a lot of
pavement and surface parking to the rear of buildings but
rather create a space that's both amenity for the residents
... that is a sensitive transition to what's around and
that supports our urban forest and said those three aspects
... we recognize requires a modernization ... of the way
we look at parking and I know that relates to
go Victoria which I'll defer to my transportation colleagues to
address
with that
it
I was just curious because I wondered if when when
some council will have to start grappling with the whole
issue of on street parking and ... how that's used
essentially under what circumstances some wondered if that was sort
of part of your longer term analysis that sounds like
we're not quite there yet
okay
through the mayor yes it is on thank you I
haven't used this one yet ... I was just going
to add a little bit ... you know we have
been in front of council a couple of times where
we have spoken about modernizing our our parking ... standards
... most recently ... we have ... applied for grant
... through UBCM to ... look at that we will
be hearing whether we have gotten the grant ... by
the end of August ... even if we don't get
the ground it is an item that is is on
our work program ... we're supposed to be reporting back
to council there was a five year report back I
think three and a half years ago so it is
something that we're we're we're looking at and it's really
about right sizing the parking that ... we have making
sure that we're providing the right type of parking but
also considering you know transportation demand measures and how we
can start ... shifting the use of the different modes
of transportation and ... changing attitudes towards transportation ... to
make sure that were ... you know addressing climate challenges
and all those very many things also recognizing that parking
is very expensive to put into to ... homes so
there's a lot of work it's going to be coming
up soon ... hopefully it's something
that we can start talking about this here and if
not this year it'll be early next year right thank
you for that yeah that's that's ... it is I
think as councillor Thornton Joe once commented sometime ago parking
seems to be the most consistently repeated question and concern
is raised with virtually every issue I'm I just had
one other question it's actually ... in attachment G. ...
and it's on the the last page third page ...
I couldn't find very many references and all of this
material to services in consideration ... around people who have
mobility impairments and other disabilities but in this document there
is a reference ... this is the one that looks
at future engagement there is a reference to two organizations
that is city resource center and the accessibility advisory committee
of both of which ... speak to the active transportation
issues but my question is more along the lines of
... what type of engagement to imagine or maybe have
you already done but mostly I think it's future looking
on issues beyond just transportation for people with disabilities and
does that consider accessibility for buildings structures open spaces green
green ways that sort of thing because I can only
find it the reference to transportation from just wondering if
there's a consideration because beyond the
thank you and through the acting mayor of
with local area planning we we recognize and we have
heard ... needs and desires and concerns around our housing
stock ... and particularly as we look to the future
and needs for accessibility and that's something that is one
of the key actions in the housing strategy and so
I think with with all local area plans you look
to the evolution of ... policies or regulations around accessibility
of housing of how we design public spaces of of
the parking question again ... rather than trying to develop
those at the neighborhood level but it's certainly something we
hear about and we we understand where by that is
differences on your radar for sure hello my questions I
just to tell someone specifically I really appreciate the fact
that you have a knowledge the all encompassing consideration of
where we can make room for indigenous recognition throughout the
city ... I think that it is really speaks well
of staff's increasing of our priorities around that relationship building
with the nations and so thank you for that in
particular thanks for your work
the concern through
thank you very much ... like my colleague thank you
very much ... ...
really it could report and thank you work on this
to I spent a lot time going over it and
I'm fascinated by some of my comments ... the comments
sent by my colleague said very interesting ... I don't
talk to you but about the hell scientific corporate Dillinger
if we if we may and ... it appeared to
me from reading report that there have been significant changes
in that area ... since some of the consultation was
done and that would be with the seniors housing placed
between Quadra and ... ... Blanchard is really significant and
I'm wondering how one what we we may consider on
consultation that area and M. two how this will impact
on the neighborhood planning quarter delayed because ... I think
it said clearly we we want that ... the scene
is living in that area to to be integrated in
the community make sure it is accessible I wonder if
you could talk a little bit about that please
thank you councillor and through acting mayor
yes we we have heard a lot about the ...
the summit housing ... throughout the discussions on Quadra village
and it's certainly something that's important to an important consideration
for the neighborhood stakeholders of both in regards to how
the remaining ... sites around that site are viewed as
far as nine fifty kings as far as any potential
for ... changes at evergreen terrace R. Blanchard court but
also how that summit site can integrate into the broader
community and some of those ideas that have emerged I
think concern ... the use of the laneway has more
of a pedestrian friendly spaces ... as well as ...
you know green waste throughout ... what what could become
in some ways a super block if there's not permeability
because we have this three large sites of nine fifty
kings and the summit and BC housing so there has
been ... some discussion of that and we we can
certainly incorporate more specific discussion about how the summit itself
is integrated into the neighborhood because it's fair to say
we've probably heard more about how to sum it has
impacted or is perceived to be impacting the neighborhood and
a little bit about how the summit itself can integrate
I mean I know what we talk about buildings here
in and traditionally we do that but I think the
people that live inside these buildings ... the key that
we be looking and I'm I'm looking at accessibility moments
in those days and I was thinking about it the
temp it would be I think provide them
... a huge ... leadership role if we could start
looking at them accessibility so that we can look at
benches resting places within the area to ensure ... but
not just resting places some ... for able bodied individuals
I I saw a great term pick I think was
on councillor Thornton-Joe's site that that part ... a bench
that has them Hey bill T. for wheelchair to to
fit into it I mean these are the kinds of
things and and curbs and ... ... crosswalks and ...
if we go into the into the corner village definitely
the work that was done
many years ago when the ... when the when it
was re developed I think was about a million dollars
and lighting and and develop in the quarter village there
... south of hillside ... anyone who spends any time
in the quarter village will know that there is ...
heavy pedestrian traffic between king and ...
sorry pal side again so come and even though there
is no crosswalk in the middle of that and that
block people using it as a crosswalk and ... I
wonder if we've we've we've looked at that ... ...
and ... because I think at times it does become
a little bit them in same with the frustration of
people going through them alleged comment on that I'll keep
going
thank you councillor yes it's certainly something ... eight I
may be guilty of being one of those people at
one time in my life first
there's certainly a desire line across hill side there and
... we've recognize that through the proposed greenway ... that
said at the at the planet proposal is that the
high level and so we haven't looked at you know
exactly where across what might land or how where that
fits in prioritize ation but have certainly looked at ...
how people get across from the area of the summit
in Blanchard courts to the north towards that green space
to the south towards the community center ... and if
... a large agreement can be established there is a
north south desire line for people
I'm definitely ... the other thing I think I would
like to to point out that since we have ...
... a significant number of people living in the in
the summit it also gives the opportunity to look at
... creating accessible housing in that area as well since
if we were to do the work to provide leadership
I think you know like a leadership that ledge that
is accessible ... to maybe go over and above us
and we'd be talking about a little bit later today
and one of the one of the applications coming before
so that we can we can ... try to do
some catch up on the the missing accessible ... rental
spaces within the city of Victoria that I know this
is been an issue so if we could
consider that and go over about the PC billing correct
and that is important and as you know that that
includes widening door frames so that elevated them wheelchair accessible
to you think again ... I also like to follow
up on counselor Loveday sent comments ... and ... the
Roxy theater and then the the comment about a cultural
center I mean it can route ... it can route
... at the legend and and really build around at
this age and I ... councillor Isaac will be familiar
with this the gas station theatre in Winnipeg ... up
there and in the villages ... with the took a
gas station and changed into a theater and it really
did make it a significant cultural center and really added
to the E. D. the idea of the village and
I would hope that we would then consider some of
the work that's being done now ... in some of
the new features that are ... arts spaces is going
in the day they've they've done it well actually and
... in London England but we never any kind of
code onto it that is they have place ... the
first of all they go down ... deeper into in
in in in in those situations I've done that and
that it definitely able to Sondheim in New York ...
because really ... you don't need lots of light into
in that the affect you wanna try to avoid that
and and also for sound that but they they tend
to build extensive either office space or ... housing puppets
that is something that could cook could be done and
again obviously making accessible and ... I would I would
hope that we would look at that as a ...
as a generator of ...
well revenue generators ... traffic foot traffic it to go
in that area in that and that we would also
ensure that if we're gonna develop how ... how cycling
master plan in that area that we we we didn't
we would consider accommodating making sure we have significant ...
bicycle parking and and so on I think that's very
very important public parking that that safe and secure
and ... so now having a hard time reading my
own writing ...
yeah from what
if if you if you look at the hillside corridor
little bit more and I know that we have the
the the the quarter village and then we go up
we have some retail that we've been looking at on
the north side there do you see that actually maintaining
their in in you know ten twenty years or are
we can look to to redevelop that into more ...
suitable ... housing and ... you know that that was
a key thing there and then also as we get
into I know near north park as well there the
the church there on ...
snow Cloverdale that point was to come
sorry no call
right up to the police station
mmhm
yes count only started but that the just we've got
awful lot of home parking lots around that area we
is there anything any vision on ... on developing that
in it's really funny because one funny it's sad because
I I look at the I spent quite a lot
of time in that area and I look at the
... the amount of ... need for housing and I
and I look at the amount of
parking space that that's there that that really is only
utilized during special events or ... on Sundays what what
do we have planned we have any idea what we
want to encourage in that area
especially when we look into mixed use housing
sorry my colleague and I were just trying to think
of which parking lots where he were thinking of what
is parking although like ... from set this the church
parking and the paperwork in this room to see on
the corner then you've got to come
... there was a development there but ... that further
out this all that parking ... Robbins parking them when
you go around the corner on Carter street there is
more parking
sort of throwback thank you
no no thank you we were just conferring ... but
I I believe ... and and through the at the
acting mayor I believe ... those are but you know
as he pointed out there there there private parking lots
aside I know the city has one or well these
public parking at the arena as well as next to
the royal athletic park but with this private ...
yes with with extensive private parking lots ... certainly the
land use vision does allow for the addition of housing
in that area as part of the shoulder of our
downtown core area ... it did the current design guidelines
which we do you know what would anticipate continuing to
speak to sensitivity towards the landmark buildings at the landmark
historic churches in that area as far as the the
massing and and and design of those buildings but it
is an area that's looked at for housing opportunity subject
to the
policies of the city and so it's certainly something ...
and might make housing colleagues ... it could probably speak
better to this but I do believe there's an action
within the housing strategy to continue dialogue with non profits
... and faith based landowners who often find themselves with
large sites and ... may want to do something as
far as the mission of supporting ... housing for people
so that's certainly a possibility that's ... entertained in these
plans
great to come thank you those are my comments for
now I am as we are on the table again
on the same me pick up a couple more thank
you for answering my questions I appreciate it
okay before I leave to cross so I said I
would I have some questions so I haven't spoken yet
a
a lot of questions that I have has been already
asking but I want to go back in terms of
some of the concerns ... gentrification in the neighborhood so
what impact it will have
and I'm wondering because some of the neighborhoods such as
part their village on Spain Rutan those neighbourhoods there are
a lot of the snow culture on businesses and base
and has there been any consideration and or engagements with
them ... because what I've
seen in other cities when big department happen and neighborhoods
change there's always a displacement of ethnocultural businesses so has
the ... wondering has the stuff put into consideration to
those businesses and X. and what was the perhaps if
you could speak more on the details
reports ... and because it indicated it would be required
more business because of the growth and how do you
retain the existing businesses as well
I think you acting mayor Dubow we did have
... I believe one or at least one or possibly
two if my memory serves me consultations with the business
owners at a quarter village ... we hosted a it
was in the first round of engagement we hosted a
business and service providers breakfast ... and we did have
you know probably ten or twelve ... business owners come
... I believe there was ... you don't wasn't all
of the businesses it wasn't all of the ethno cultural
businesses ... we had I believe camas books there and
... you know some of that to the different small
businesses ... and it's certainly something we've kept in mind
we can continue that out rates ... often with businesses
and find ... it may require going door to door
at times or at the very least giving people breakfast
before the business opens ... but we are ... looking
at ... policies that we hope can allow for the
continuation of small business ... spaces and not to encouraging
...
large excuse me
large scale redevelopment within those parts of quarter village that
already have ... find great fabric of building ownership so
that those spaces can continue to be there as well
as ... how we can provide some of the public
realm that can support what they do
and thank you very much for that ... thanks for
all the walk on the parts and concise it
thanks
just an aside Doug councillor Rangers correct I do recall
the gestation theater I had my tempers the party they're
watching a rendition of the headless horseman and my birthday's
in mid January and my mom actually reminded me a
few years ago that it was so cold that the
that to prevent the engine blocks from freezing solid they
all had to leave their vehicles idling in front of
the theater so that was my tenth birthday sort of
in the nineteen eighties so I guess climate action consciousness
was to look at what's today but I think you
councillor Andrew for that
allowing me to reminisce
question to staff ... similar to some of the questions
that other colleagues have asked specific to ... housing affordability
and looking at some policies that I believe ms whose
... has drawn our attention to previously ... in Vancouver
I guess what options would council have to mandate affordability
essentially say that for any property owners to access additional
densities it would have to be either non market or
a housing that had some affordability baked in and then
in the absence of those provisions ... the the previous
much lower densities would be all that would be available
because that would seem to be an approach that I
think Vancouver has followed ... that could be a way
to ensure that if we do have densification on any
of these corridors ... that it it achieves the city's
affordability objectives rather than ... potentially could contributing to gentrification
which can undermine affordability and inclusivity
thank you councillor and head through the acting mayor ...
... I will ... start the question and if there's
any other additions around policy or legal framework cell I
look to ... ms Hudson
there's different ways we can approach ... the policy framework
here and and do the way we have ... proposed
in these key directions is to continue to utilize ...
the city's approach to density quote unquote density bonus which
is to seek
either inclusion area housing or community amenity consistent with that
city wide policy ... there are a few other ...
draft policies put into these documents of for example ...
one of the proposed policies as an intern policy speaks
to where these plans are proposing additional densities ... considered
consideration of additional densities ... and not to really an
act that
until we have a chance to update that rental retention
and replacement policy in the OCP ... as far as
mandating ... we can certainly policies that speak to what
sorts of special needs or ... what sets of public
benefits are are desired with redevelopment ... but as far
as mandating it that ... you know perhaps through a
pres owning format ... would be one way of ...
you know having two different ... densities that are available
to an applicant ... but there are certain ... public
benefits that need to be provided for that and I
don't know if ms Hudson has additional legal considerations staff
to add to that
perhaps next week when council moves towards motions ... I
I think I would be contemplating some sort of a
... an amendment or some direction to try to have
staff Britain incorporate those options into the draft plans of
yep please owning a differential density based on the ...
the type of tenure particularly the provision of affordability so
as staff have additional information today or perhaps they could
turn their mind to what that could look like with
council considers it next week
... through the acting mayor maybe I would just add
that as part of the next phase of local are
you planning we are going to turn our minds to
... zoning updates that would help implement these policies and
so we will be very much thinking about strategically what
areas of the neighborhood would make sense to ... perhaps
... update the zoning now to
... incentivize things like ... purpose built rental but which
parts of these villages do we want to maybe ...
still directed through rezoning process so that we can negotiate
for those other things like affordable affordable housing inclusionary housing
so so those are definitely the things that we're gonna
be thinking about as part of this next phase
okay ... Kingsley and secondly would require and to accept
the report because of the motions on other things we'd
be interested in next week so how do we move
forward
... actioner board that's just that's ... you're calling council's
if council wishes to adopting resolutions today
and it was a decided to adopt and next week
and my understanding so to end this part of the
agenda do we accept the report on point of order
I think I think with our staff for saying it's
council's decision they don't want to sway would take a
positive motion of council probably just to postpone consideration of
or will be delighted to postpone this item or to
refer it to next week
could we just accept item one
which is 6
because that is an option of the discussion during the
gender like so I said a point of order now
it throws the speakers list in limbo but ... just
to continue I could be added to the speakers list
whenever is appropriate councillor Dubow allowed to so going back
to to the question
would it be up to the councils either to move
the motion to refer the report to next week or
what would be the best procedurally two tied up this
so that the motion as could be and debated next
week
that's L. three routing merit I would suggest there's a
couple different ways councillor comes out so it really depends
on council's preference receiving the reports one option and that
would certainly not preclude council from discussing it again if
it wishes are passing any additional motions if it wishes
another option could be to a motion to refer as
you suggested
thank you I would it's up in the floor before
we move Animotion concise it
I guess I'd like to propose that this matter be
referred to next week's committee of the whole meeting second
and to motivate ... I I fully anticipate that I
will be in a position to receive but just because
there are a couple of key neighbourhood reps who served
on the working group and ... the haven't been able
to get back to me because of the tight timeline
I would have more comfort and just a complete referral
and then considering receipt as well as the other recommendations
at next week's meeting
okay I think we ready to vote on that
in favor
a post
okay unanimous in the past so we will be right
I will have process for five minutes
I think we have
so we we had back to
the next P. 2 D. at the presentation
4 I've at plus to the stuff
thank you acting mad my name is Charlotte Wain ...
I'm a senior planner of design in the development services
division
this proposal is to rezone the one ha city blocks
to a site specific zoning in order to construct a
multi phased mixed use development including commercial daycare and office
use with purpose built residential went above the proposed densities
six point one floor space ratio for the nine hundred
block of the street six point two to one floor
space ratio for ten forty five days street
I do have quite a lengthy presentation so I may
poles on a few slides just to help you digest
what information is on the screen so just be aware
that hi ... I will be doing this deliberately
so the subject property is located centrally in a hurry
screen neighbourhood outlined in green on this slide
the application fax number properties ninety three and nine eleven
young street nine ten view street and twelve and five
and twelve or nine quarter street and this is referred
to as the nine hundred block of H. street from
here on in under the other after the other side
to ten forty five yet street shown on the right
of the slide
this slide shows some of the surrounding buildings and how
was green and adjacent downtown neighborhoods and some visualisations ...
that I'm sure you're familiar with
on the nine hundred block the property contains two major
tenants including London drugs amok on Yates as well as
a number of smaller retailers residential building with fifteen rental
apartments is shown in photograph three
which is the bottom left hand for today
on ten forty five A. street this is currently occupied
by a car dealership which is not as hard storage
under a satiated surface parking
the official community plan or OCP identifies the property in
the core residential designation which supports diverse housing types including
live mid and high rise multi unit residential and mixed
use buildings up to approximately twenty stories
one of the strategic directions is to accommodate fifty percent
of Victoria's population growth within the urban core by twenty
forty one
the downtown core area plan or D. cap supports multi
residential development at the maximum density of five point five
to one floor space ratio and a maximum height of
forty five meters to ten forty five a street on
up to fifty meters of the nine hundred block of
H. street the application does exceed these height and density
however the proposal does exceed other aspects of the cap
through the provision of shorter more human scale podiums with
slender towers set back up of generous building separation distances
between the towers
the proposal was initiated prior to the pandemic so public
meeting was held in December twenty nineteen through the design
revision process the heightened density increased and so second coat
meeting was triggered and this went through the online process
in addition to these meetings the applicant how to more
consultation events and details are touching a package for council's
consideration
the following slides and explain the conceptual design design submitted
in association in association with the rezoning application
the applicant has included a rezoning booklet which is been
used to assess the general messing density streetscape views and
context of the proposal this seventies on design analysis helps
to demonstrate the relative merits associated with the proposed messing
as part of a comprehensively designed site
these benefits include improved building separation distances greatest street setback
distances humans go boating podium and the more consistent and
thoughtful distribution of density as demonstrated in this Mustang typology
study
this slide shows the urban design strategies that have been
used to inform the proposed messing and site layout and
further details including the reason booklet
this is an important slide to Shea as it demonstrates
how the proposed house have been thoughtfully place to be
offset from existing and proposed buildings as well as providing
generous spacing between the towers within the development the proposal
exceeds current and emerging D. cap standards with the distances
between towers ranging from twenty three meters to seventy six
meters
a design manual is included as part of the submission
which includes a series of site specific design guidelines to
provide assurances that the important design criteria listed on this
slide we'll be matching concurrent of future development applications
an official community plan amendment is required to reference these
guidelines and develop planetary which covers a site as well
as to allow the proposed increase in height heightened density
this design manual is comprehensive and well developed although if
you don't a specs do require further clarification and refinement
and this is listed in the staff recommendation the version
presented today is the result of a Catholic considered to
be processed by staff
the proposal is comprised of two size they're intended to
be delivered in two or three phases ten forty five
eighth street is proposed as a first phase we seek
to increase the density to six point two twelve floor
space ratio and increase the committee tied to twenty one
stories further details of this we discussed later in the
presentation
for the nine hundred block of a street the proposed
increase density to six point one floor space ratio and
increase the committee height to thirty two stories
central to the nine hundred block would be high quality
public plaza linking ace in the streets
this slide shows the proposed heights in a street scape
elevation looking north on the right to the two towers
proposed at ten forty five yet street at twenty and
twenty one stories on the western side of the nine
hundred block above the podium is a single tower Tousey
which is it twenty nine stories on the eastern portion
of the nine hundred block this would contain two residential
towers above at thirty two stories the tower D. and
twenty stories Patel AT
although the proposal does exceed the maximum height sets out
to the relevant policy and this is shown by the
dashed lines here on the slide
it does configure the proposed towers and situated varies the
heights to provide interest in the skyline which something encouraged
by the guidelines
the design manual provide design from which is for future
phases and then for staff proposed to incorporate the proposed
building height into the amendments the OCP FM place designation
but we recommend a more cautionary approach to limit the
maximum building heights in the site specific zoning to be
consistent with the ACP which supports buildings up to twenty
stories
this means that the concurrent event permit with variance application
and any future development permit application will include a height
variance I require council consideration on an opportunity for public
comment
the following slide to focus on the land use open
space and housing highlights of the proposal
the three men uses a proposed the main uses of
the proposal ... a rental residential with indoor and outdoor
amenities retail office of public open space ten forty five
yet street includes a daycare with associated outdoor space the
next slide demonstrates the distribution of those uses
except right down of units for later phases has not
yet been determined that the first phase of the development
would contain approximately five hundred ten units in a makeshift
studios one bedroom two bedroom three bedroom and townhouse units
which would include a total of twenty three affordable units
that meet the city's median income brackets
this slide shows the distribution of rental apartments and town
houses on the townhouses are highlighted in the Reds read
portion of this slide are located along the street in
Vancouver street
this slide shows the distribution of commercial uses on the
ground floor
and the commercial retail and space includes three major tenants
and saves a small local shops and services
a third party language analysis was conducted and is attached
for council's consideration the report analyzed three different scenarios a
setup in the policy firstly as of right zoning entitlement
second scenario is the cheaper density the OCP based level
of three to one of I saw and that's not
is the proposed development
the report concludes that the proposed rezoning does not create
an increase in land value that can be used to
fund amenities under affordable housing and this is due to
a number of factors the subject property has a high
existing achievable density under current zoning
the value of a completed rental buildings building passed by
foot is significantly lower than a compatible strata building despite
having similar cost to construct on the page rental project
requires concrete construction
but as mentioned earlier the applicant the application does provide
twenty three affordable residential units that would meet the city
Victoria definition for median income households a public plaza which
would be maintained by the applicant public realm improvements beyond
the city's basic standards and space for daycare we do
have the consultant available on the line to answer any
questions on this topic should they come up
central to the request for the increasing heightened density is
the provision of a central plaza this slide shows the
policy context in the D. cap which requires a plaza
between eight hundred and twelve hundred meters in size the
proposed exceeds the policy by including a plaza that that
will be a minimum of sixteen hundred square meters
although the detailed design has not been determined at this
stage the next few slides demonstrated conceptual design of the
space
the closest is divided into three distinct elements the eight
plaza containing a flexible space to accommodate a variety of
events the Harris green terrace containing says in a room
on the view street green containing alone diarrhea which would
have more of a residential focus
the total size would be a minimum of sixteen hundred
square meters which is roughly equal to the size of
fashion square between Wall Street and Langley street in addition
to the plaza the applicant has committed to providing a
public consultation valued at no less than three and fifty
thousand dollars
this slide shows the different elements of the plaza in
a rented fee with the H. street plaza being more
urban in nature and this will be flanked by commercial
uses and then and the lower image the shares of
the street green and Harris being terrace which would have
more residential focus surrounded by townhouses
for
this slide shows the conceptualization PhD plaza
and here we can see the plazas and intended to
be a flexible space that could accommodate a variety of
programming events throughout the year including food festivals and holiday
markets
this slide shows a rendering much of how the plaza
maybe automated
and this slide shows a rendering much of the street
frontage along a street which would include the detailed design
and installation of the two way protected bike lane we
should be secured through legal agreements
the delivery the plaza cannot be realized until the last
phase of development as the applicant has noted that the
phasing lines are dictated by existing structures on site the
recommended motion provides the necessary wording to ensure the plazas
delivered concurrently with the final phase of development and legal
agreements would be drafted to ensure the city is provided
with the security to ensure high quality construction and ultimately
is delivering
the next slide demonstrates the view and shot a studies
and how the impacts on the neighborhood would be three
... view and shot a studies
this slide shows the visual impact of the proposed development
from the Songhees point which is shown above an image
on the on the bottom shows at the proposal looking
south along the street
and this slide recently approved under construction developments shown in
purple with the subjects I outlined in blue
the agreement shows a view along a street looking east
on the lower images show view looking south along cook
street
and in this study the upper image shows the subjects
blood site looking north along a street on the lower
end shows the visual impact of the proposal on the
city skyline when viewed from cook street looking south
and other recently approved ... developments will say Shane and
with the text in black on this slide
this image shows a shutter impacts of the proposed limping
at the summer solstice
and this slide shows a shot impacts of the proposal
during the equinox
in addition to the shutters studies the design manual includes
better shot analysis to test the proposed design guidelines and
this includes objectives to minimize the negative impacts of building
such as excessive shade shuttering improves he preaches on aims
to maximize access to natural light and views
the proposed guidelines established Pacific Sundays to ensure that the
current and future proposals meet these objectives
to verify the Russian of the increased height above policy
standards stuff requested a robust comparison the existing guidelines
this slide demonstrates what could be achieved under the current
account guidelines which is shown by the black dashed line
this is essentially results in a total of okay podium
the red areas show the proposed street facades and the
blueberries on top of the tower should the additional density
required to accommodate more human scaled lower podium heights
this slide shows the additional views of the same analysis
from quarter street and cook street
the stuff also requested amassing scenario that followed the T.
CAP guidelines at densities of five point five to one
I saw a six point one if I saw which
is shining green employee compared to the proposed development with
total towers in lower podiums which is shown in pink
these studies including the rezoning booklet although visually complex and
quite difficult to tell on the screen here they do
serve to demonstrate that a lot of podium would benefit
the public realm through G. stating
to conclude for the rezoning aspect to the proposal if
this includes a significant addition of rental housing and commercial
space to the having screen neighbourhood and includes the provision
of twenty three units of affordable housing as well as
a significant public plaza the proposed is consistent with the
official community plan except for the able to understand height
being sought however a rational consistent with the goals and
objectives of the OCP has been provided stuff that for
recommend supporting the rezoning and OCP amendment with the conditions
set out in the report
and I'll move on to focus on the company development
variance application which I need plus the first phase of
development at ten forty five eighth street
this slide shows the ground floor plan which includes a
mix of retail parking and ground floor residential uses location
on the ground floor is a generous parking in loading
area at the rear access to few street which is
in close and therefore subject to floor area as a
result the proposed density for this portion is six point
two to one floor space ratio
this slide shows the site layout five hundred ten units
are proposed as part of the space with twenty three
these being affordable housing that meets the definition for median
incomes
big classes access is proposed off the streets and residential
lucky lobbies a proposed updates and cook street
three levels underground parking proposed and help mitigate some of
the anticipated parking shortfall a number of mitigation measures as
detailed in the slide of being proposed this includes three
kasha vehicles and parking stills a hundred sixty nine caution
memberships for electric vehicle charging stations and long term end
of trip facilities these are considered to be acceptable I
will be secured to a legal agreement
details are proposed at twenty twenty one stories which is
one story above the maximum height prescribed in the OCP
in six stories above the maximum height prescribed anti cap
as described earlier variance above twenty stories and sixty meters
is required since the proposal has in court cooperated and
since the proposal has incorporated small floor plate place a
generous how separation to mitigate the perceived messing the proposed
height variance is considered supportable
events related to high to the height of the rooftop
structure is also proposed the staff recommendation includes requesting this
aspect of the design be reconsidered or otherwise mitigated
this slide shows East West elevations
the proposed materials are Mr brick spandrel panels a metal
panels which is generally consistent with the design guidelines
a number streetscape improvements are proposed and listed in the
rezoning of staff report among the improvements a new Boulevard
trees rain gardens on yet street and P. street on
the design and installation of new protected bike lane on
the street all of which will be secure by legal
agreement prior to public hearing
a small plaza with seating is proposed at the intersection
of yet street and cook street highlighted in red hair
opportunities opportunities exist to create entrances from the retail unit
on to the space which would improve its usability and
show the area adds to the vibrancy of the street
one level to the proposal includes private amenity courtyard for
residents and an outdoor play area the satiated proposed which
is associated with the proposed a cap
on level 4 plant is a proposed rubber Necker Coachella
on level five there is an additional shed seating area
on the remains of the Texas for private residential use
on level six the proposal includes a make sure private
parties and friends patches that would be available for tenants
as well as a shed dog run area
we've decades proposed a tower hi although the exact program
programming details have not yet been determined
the application was reviewed by the advisory design panel early
this year on the panel recommended the development be declined
and the following revisions for the night
recognizing the podium for more consideration of materiality the towers
in terms of which is a variation on consideration of
providing access to some public open space ... connection between
you and a street
staff over the applicant has adequately addressed the advisory design
panels concerns by adding a deep recess along H. street
refining the materiality of the towers and podium on by
adding is seating areas at the intersections along cook street
a connection between view and yet she was not incorporated
since the proposed increase this on the nine hundred block
additional revisions were incorporated on a listed in the staff
report
on ... and on a couple of rendered images of
the proposal this is speech from cook street
and this one shows view street looking north
to conclude all there but the proposal is not consistent
with a maximum height described in the guidelines it is
consistent with the built form principles in the core residential
designation of the ACP which supports buildings up to approximately
twenty stories
... is advances a number of objects objectives the development
part commentary three including high quality architecture landscape and Devin
Stein who greatest heights along a street on this basis
staff recommend for council's consideration that the application be supported
this concludes my presentation I'm happy to answer any questions
so what we going to do is that I would
entertain questions
hi on our ticket list councillor Loveday
thank you I
sure like my colleagues I have ... many and so
I'll just ... start with a few I'm
first off
what is the rationale from the city's perspective of having
these two sites come forward as one proposal
through the acting matters there's not really any policy that
prevents the application coming forward together ... it's not uncommon
for a rezoning applications ... for multiphase developments to included
development for the fast pace the applicant is chosen to
just come forward with the development for the phase one
night align
and maybe I'll just add to that a No Way
does the applicant it off easier by doing it we
look at the project comprehensively consider the heights across the
whole site and as well as the densities
the developer by doing it together it gives the developer
the opportunity to think about how they're going to stage
and how they're going to accommodate of businesses that they
hope to move so that there's as little disruption to
those businesses as possible
so it
with that hi so there couldn't applicant then essentially take
...
it unlimited number of on related sites and proposed to
miss one
rezoning
I think that would be very unusual flat circa ...
typically when we have such a large site such as
this we ask for additional information and in this case
... the rezoning booklets ... the design and that the
design manual is really the main P. the main assurances
that the city has got that the concept is presented
today is achievable and will be delivered
... but this night the east just mentioned that would
be very unusual for that to happen would there be
any ...
legally binding timelines for the development I know like for
example with the
plaza which I think is the
the mean amenity
being secured within phase three what if these three never
happens
through the mayor that this that could happen ... ...
there's no guarantee that phase two or three will come
forward ... however that you know phase two and that
of see that the plaza is part of ... the
main the main community amenities part as part of the
later phases ... but ultimately be
there are
significant number of units ... in the later phases and
so the applicant is of C. has the motivation to
come forward and deliver those faces we haven't ... up
to go into the details of the legal agreements in
terms of timing and how that may be impacted
okay and if you mentioned that the
consultant from the land left analysis is on line do
I just sort of ask questions and they will there
they will answer the
that's crazy is online yeah okay
welcome thank you for being here
with the
the land lease analysis
yes I I found it very surprising that there would
be no increase in in land left in in fact
that it would be seen as having a fairly major
reduction in vessel and so
the first question is
but you were ... an analysis and opinion would it
be that after this property was rezoned ... the applicant
would sell this property for less money ... then if
they were to sell it now
councillor Loveday explorer pair from Korea Alaska mayor and council
thanks for having me at the end committee meeting today
and I'm happy to answer anyone's questions as we go
along just just to be clear so ... councillor Loveday
... with your specific to your question ... the motion
for you get one response to your first pointer just
to your question but to answer your question ... yes
it would be our opinion that if the site was
rezoned so which required to be purpose built rental housing
in its entirety for the life of the building in
actually with team values the value of the land if
it was put on the open market and attempted to
be sold to another party
... and how does your analysis factor in the the
heights and the fact that ...
being the tallest buildings in the city I will likely
have a protected view scapes ... from ... many of
the floors of the ocean ... and ... very beautiful
city ... ... in perpetuity so how does that factor
into the valuation that every one of these ... floors
above what is ... currently allowed under zoning ...
will be very valuable
thanks so in response to that what is part of
our our financial analysis we need to complete an estimate
of the potential rant that could be achieved by the
the proposed units in the rezoning and so our our
our monthly rental estimates assume that the units in the
upper part of the building kind of calm very good
views and so it's reflected in our revenue estimates for
the completed buildings
and are those rents within your report
grants are so our our work was shared with city
staff and with the applicant
much of it is confidential because it contains information provided
by the applicant is proprietary and confidential so it's not
contained in the report ... that is in the public
staff document
okay that that sit of for ... ... for now
Blair thank you ... thank you
... maybe I'll see the floor for now thank you
thank you thanks councillor Dubow for a year yeah acting
mayor shift ... councils or enjoy your next thank you
...
it's hard not to make a comment this is a
very complex the application and ... hello a lot of
detail a lot of pieces ... so I think I'll
start off with comes ugh finishing work we're councillor Loveday
... started and I guess I'm having trouble ... understanding
the
... Sir what we call it that the design manual
so
it's the applicant the does the does through consultation a
design
manuals so what they're proposing for the design of these
this these properties is that my understanding is through my
that's correct ... ultimately the at the applicant hired a
consultant to prepare the design manual ... ... but it
has been prepared in close collaboration with city staff on
the reason why ... the design money often put forward
is because it is such a large project ... and
is seeking ... greater heights than the policy supports ...
so that's the rationale why they put forward the design
manual in the intent that it provides greater security ...
for the later phases where we don't have a developments
on the table today
he and the ... what is the difference between sort
of a design manual and so the most recent one
we dealt with it was a ... ... I guess
some
as I'm trying to think what the word is whether
it's a master plan for capital city where when the
jobs are built it was commented how they follow ...
the message about what's the difference sort of between the
two
I am through the mayor of the
if involved in the capsule pock ... project up I
believe that one had more historic context um it had
a a design money that had been the pad ...
many many years ago and so that was kind of
more of an update and refresh ... this one is
... ace is
it's been built at eight it has been developed in
collaboration with study city stuff by then develop services on
the community planning ... it is kind of ... run
parallel to the emerging review of the downtown core area
plan ... sales please it's been reviewed out from staff
by a number of different angles ... based in policy
and from development services
... but ... ultimately it is going to ... if
if approved then they'll see will set the tone for
those future phases so any any development that comes forward
for the the size of any future phases will be
reviewed based on both this document the design manual and
existing decapitated it doesn't replace the downtown core area plan
I think is maybe an easy ways on to your
question ... is is an extra layer of policy ...
on top of what already exists okay thank you thank
you for all the set explanation because I'm very kind
of confused about this piece so to go along with
that ... having just finished discussing a little bit the
village in corridor ... planning and how it was moved
to next week because ... we want to get input
from from the neighborhood said that are most affected with
this plan so this design ... manual I hear that
it was done by the applicant Tim with that work
with the city staff
this is not something that would come to the city
the council table to one say whether we agree with
this design manual and to the uh neighborhood association to
see if they also agree with the support the design
manual
and I know I think it went to sort of
was considered to be called ADP but I'm just trying
to understand first how the design manual fits in and
who approves the design manual since that is a big
piece of what's being proposed
it oversee by the nation is that if it is
part of the attachment is part of the consideration for
council stay below twenty the preparation design guidelines is is
quite and expertise ... it does require a significant expertise
from the design profession ... that's not to say that
the public don't have a right to comment on it
of course the day ... but really the preparation of
design guidelines is is quite specialised area ... in terms
of setting up the right intent the right design guidelines
... stuff we also need to be able to interpret
the policy in a in a certain way that it
makes sense ... say it is a complex process and
and that's why it's we we do tend to leave
it to the expense ... in that regard ... but
ultimately what the design guidelines results and is the concept
that as shown in the ... in the renderings in
the conceptual design of the rezoning booklet which is probably
something that the public can more easily identify with
perhaps oldest if I can add to it a bit
this isn't unusual so the design manuals just another word
for design guidelines and so the official community plan needs
to be amended in order to incorporate that and so
there's a whole process that set out regarding the official
community plan amendment does ... require that consultation both the
referral that originally happened to the cal Luke ... but
then through the process in council's motion there's the ...
motion that it council consider referring it out to people
within two hundred meters and where it goes from there
so that consultation will continue and in just in terms
of the discussion in relation to capitol park and other
projects and and should we be looking at this first
or second there's there's no right or wrong way of
council doing it and it could be piece depart but
this is consistent with for instance how ... dockside was
done rail yards capital park a lot of the large
rezoning's I'm trying to think of anywhere it has come
to council in stages they usually come together because the
design guidelines or informing the rezoning and how that would
work
okay thank you for that some
in the go to and next some questions
so so we're so there's the design guidelines of the
bird looking at a rezoning for both property for both
sides and now we're looking for the development permit for
the one site and I also want to go back
to councillor Loveday's questions and make make sure I
... and so usually when we have had ... sites
like dockside a real yards or
... I guess even that the Hudson or like ...
capital park ... the developers actually is the whole site
is one site this one is to is to almost
two pieces divided by region region park region and and
so on I I don't quite understand how it can
come sort of as as one
to me they're 2 separate
like even
David the to char development on cook and gates this
is is more in line to me as a sort
of one ... design manual as because it's all on
one sort of adjoining attached sites where is this one
is not attached
so is this done before or is this
something different
I think the easiest way to answer questions there's nothing
up in our bylaws that prevents applications being submitted concurrently
as part of one rezoning application just because I'm not
one contiguous lots ...
we we did
what ms witnessing is correct and there are I can
think of examples like if you look at dockside technically
it's not a contiguous site it's divided in part by
tiny road in you you cross the street there's not
another development site in between but it's divided melts in
Angela's came forward and council ... was considering amounts in
Angela and I'm not sure everything everything cross the finish
line on the same day but there was a property
... I think it's on Balmoral by the castle centre
it was related ... so if it does happen and
...
again it's the developer has made this choice because it
makes sense for them to look at these properties comprehensively
so they can move things around it has advantages to
staff and that we're able to look at comprehensive sort
of sidewalk improvements and how the whole site will work
together ... there's a better understanding about phasing about what
will happen when and knowing that with the first phase
that the twenty three units of affordable housing will come
online in and so forth but did some really not
a right or a wrong
thank thank you affix for helping out with some of
the some standing on I don't know if it was
yesterday or this morning we received an email from Chris
Gower who was a staff I don't know staff and
see the letter
okay ... so maybe we need to be a center
... but I really appreciated his letter and she mentions
that one of his chief assignments as senior senior planner
for urban design in Victoria when he worked out for
the city was the preparation of the downtown core area
plan and ... he said the letter to councils and
he talks about ... what was considered when when ...
doing this and others 3 D. modeling
and so he he expresses concerns ... about the the
heightened density ... and taking away the the the Victoria's
unique place up but the main thrust of it is
that of that this the work that was done ...
for this area would never envisioned of this kind of
... heightened density in these areas ... so I don't
know ... whether it is appropriate for me to ask
of ... your thoughts on or
you know with the with the current
I am that exists
I guess I have trouble understanding how this degree of
density
catfish the computers supported ... in consideration of of the
letter that ... Mr Gower wrote when he worked on
the plan
... through the mat will see con coming to less
we haven't seen it ... but at in a through
the staff report was in the presentation we try to
explain is that yes is this news there's no getting
around the highest the highest all significantly higher than what
the policy proposes but the trade off is ... is
a smaller podiums the current the current D. cap ...
as shown in the massing studies at even the presentation
does ... allow for much mold okay yeah ... squatter
at both here and ...
heavier podiums ... that that go up to twenty stories
the OCP and the T. CAP ... develop to twenty
stories ... but in a more Bochy way and the
lower portion of the buildings what this proposal does is
essentially I have a ticket because by virtue of the
fact that it is a a large sites it has
the space and flexibility to spread those towers out ...
with more building separation distances ... through the work with
staff ... the podiums have been leveraged ... which ...
staff of the opinion is an improvement on the current
guidelines ... in terms of providing a more human scale
... missing from the street level which is ultimately how
we all experienced the city
Sir could I just add to that a lead
yes go ahead so thank you ... I just wanted
to note to that these are rental buildings and rental
does change the formula it doesn't change our policy but
it changes what's needed to make projects viable ... you
know years ago we were talking about rental and that's
the reason that we're having a lot of the situations
that we have right now where we don't have the
housing that we need for people if these were built
as condos it could be you know quite a bit
a bit smaller so those are ... also some of
the trade offs and in addition to the urban design
is the types of pieces that we're looking at this
so thank you for that and I'm gonna pick up
after my just a little ... response I'll cede the
floor and come back to the rest my question but
I guess so my understanding is that the fact that
these are rental is is what's driving the heightened density
is would that be part of from my understanding that
is is I issue said of these were all condos
...
that would make the heightened density let's look at that
I would expect with us or through the mayor ...
I I would expect that the density would be less
if it if it was a a condo building ...
but we're really looking at in this proposal is ...
the applicant has come forward with with a proposal that
includes rental housing ... has indicated a need for a
certain level of density and the pharmacy in front of
you has ...
has mitigated the impacts of that heightened density as much
... as possible ... as as ... as Wayne said
you know you can you can have you can have
shorter fatter buildings are you can have taller slimmer buildings
with the same density ... if council disagrees with the
density that's proposed ... yeah that's that's the purview of
of council but I would expect that if the density
was reduced that we would not be seen ... rental
... happening in this location okay thank you and I
do have one put forth the just reminders on optical
scroll through can you remind me of the amount of
rentals are being provided what percentage is affordable
Sir Elton this is ... for phase one and only
after the five and ten units proposed twenty three of
them are affordable as per the city's median income brackets
search for this the space for the first phase answer
what percent twenty three out of five hundred and ten
twenty three out of five hundred and ten yeah okay
thank you that's it thank you thank you other questions
yeah councillor Dubow and then councillor young
thanks mayor helps and for the whole new faces how
long will it take to for construction
that's something that the applicant is best placed on seven
staff ... but I mean based on typical timing and
construction phases it you know the the latest fate the
later phases couldn't be realized that potentially in a set
of five to seven years from now
so is it fair to say minimum five years I
think that's a fair assumption okay
my second question
you earlier indicated that they would be twenty three units
affordable created by medium income
and in the report to this also indicates they would
be fifteen units lost is that correct
that is correct yes so we have and one hundred
and we've
so that means the project would lose fifteen and units
affordable I'm getting twenty three affordable medium income
so I just wanted to point out this was more
than a comment to the question so thank you
that did nothing further all
I'll come back to it okay thank you ... councillor
young and councillor Isitt it just to follow up on
on the previous question ... did councillor Loveday is an
and others on the phasing
mmhm I see the ... the density on the eastern
half block is a slightly higher
then the
on the west block I think ... and I I
think the basic density of allowable is actually lower
... so I guess the question is if indeed ...
the second phase never takes place
... or or if you if you if them put
another way the if you ignore the possibility of the
second phase which includes ... the ... the the plaza
who would be your recommendation on the first phase speak
different given the ... increase in the allowable density and
... the whatever amenities are being provided in phase one
thanks for the question ... that's the interesting one ...
I mean the the main driver for the community many
teas as part of the overall project is the community
plaza ... as part of the nine hundred block if
the first phase was viewed in isolation ... my professional
opinion is that I think it would be supportable based
on the fact that it is is low height it's
... it's for twenty one stories the OCP suppose twenty
stories um the magnitude of the various being sorted less
...
Axcelis
I've done if that answers your question hello the up
uptake in in FSR as creators
eight six point two to one ... floor space ratio
for that
Postle and that is
there was some ... there's a lot of add did
discussion with this particular project ... and the applicant and
it was is the reason why it doesn't it doesn't
have the same densities nine hundred block is that the
loading area on this possible asing closed ... subject to
floor space ... and is that large loading area that's
needed to serve the anticipated attendance ... for the commercial
units the nine hundred block isn't anticipated to have the
same issues because of the great changes between gays and
you street the parking areas is anticipated to be more
underground and that full notes ... county towards full space
thank you I'm
this is the there's some
the design guidelines stress the setbacks between the buildings ...
twenty three meters I think which is ...
and and the those I think resulted from some earlier
concerns ...
stemming from the R. 48 zoning but
would the
analysis be any different if you use it took the
following point of view we think that twenty three meters
I think it was is appropriate ... for the setback
between a new building and an existing building
but
with regard to set backs within a development site
... people can do whatever they want ... is there
building to rental buildings on the site ...
they can be when people walk into the unit and
decide whether they want a rented the other building is
there ... the developer can make whatever decision he wants
with regard to those internal setbacks would the analysis and
specifically ... the limit on the number of towers and
consequently the height of the towers ... be different if
you took the stance that ... the developer can make
his own decision with regard to setbacks
between the buildings and the new buildings or
is there some consideration of relationship to existing neighborhood ...
that ... dictates the design
I think that was
is it I think that I think in a way
... opposing result because I'm thinking ... of the question
that was in the ...
ultimately the the applicant has come forward to the proposal
whereas the two tower and it just to clarify your
question specific to the phase one or the overall come
in actually it was probably more relevant to phase two
where the higher heights are contemplated and where there's a
specific
a provision in the recommendation that says no more than
three towers on the on the nine hundred block and
... well this is the background as you're probably aware
is that
... when people first started bringing forward ... developments under
the R. forty eight ... we discovered that if two
adjacent buildings built by two developers used a very narrow
setbacks you'd you'd have unlivable circumstances people would be balconies
would be
bumping into each other almost ... so we use set
these big setbacks which between towers and what I'm wondering
is whether these big setbacks that are proposed ... on
the nine hundred block in particular
... for the benefit of the development itself floor they
really for the benefit of the surrounding neighborhood and existing
buildings
thank you for that point of clarification asa ... ...
we appreciate it I'm based relay is twofold ... the
if if you look at the ... the design intent
for the design manual is both to preserve the livability
of ... existing and future residence ... this slide I
showed in the presentation with the red boxes that demonstrates
how the towers have been ... position not only to
benefit the red line of the subject parcel but also
the surrounding context in terms of the total buildings this
determine how screen neighbourhood of intended to be going to
the north and south ... to avoid United ... the
fifty breaches ... maintain access to sunlight all those aspects
... a key design intents of the design manual that
... ... the objective is to benefit both the existing
residents and future residents
so it's not is it is this the simple answer
to question is that it's to benefit both the existing
residents this thing residents of the surrounding neighborhood plus future
residents of this exactly thank
thank you I've got councillor Isitt and then myself cancer
as a go ahead but my apologies if my question
to put kids with some other council members of the
house but just trying to understand how the height variance
is considered ... supportable by staff given the magnitude of
the variance
through the mayor of the staff are proposing as part
of the recommendation is to is to limit the heights
and the asset to ... include the proposed heights in
the official community plan amendment but to no and better
use the proposed ties such two stories into the new
sign so any future develop this the concurrent developments as
part of phase one and any future development should they
come forward with the development phase two and three ...
would be subject to a variance ... so it would
be it would be reviewed ... if council chooses to
opt for the staff recommendation it would be reviewed by
council and to an opportunity for comments the rationale fed
the increase and that highlights ... ... significantly above the
policy is is the trade off I mentioned earlier ...
in terms of increased building separation distances between the towers
the lower podiums ... the central plaza the applicant has
proposed a central plaza this night I double what the
policy supports I or what to put policy recommends ...
all these are factors that staff you know you play
into the whole ... the whole package when we review
an application ... and ultimately you know you'd be the
impacts on on the public realm ... photo the buildings
alas ... through a small through shows a podium from
a street Kay street scape perspective many of us were
in our experience our cities ... as a pedestrian we
walk down the streets we look at how tall buildings
are ... we see you know just you know which
state that gives us a sense of how we feel
in the space ... the impacts on the height of
thirty two storeys arguably a greatest when fusion view from
the city skyline said they the impacts from the toilet
buildings in that respect to really that's why
we look at the future did you analysis ... and
how how the city can be seen ... from the
more distant views ... say from staff stocks perspective ...
in terms of prioritizing the public ... the public interest
... you know we've been ready faxing hard on on
getting those paid Ms down to an acceptable and supportable
level on the impact of that is that the applicant
increase the height of the towers and that was one
thing you know that happen through the stuff and he
slapped that was what we really focused on office on
and and and the private proposal as it's presented today
thank you if the towers were kept to their same
... with ...
it and the the distal density wasn't approved to be
on the
are the zoning or the OCP would ... can you
tell us how approximately how many stories the building would
be
because the assumption that a rushed a little shorter building
would be wider is only piece that's assuming that council
is prepared to grant the density but let's see if
the density of council wasn't prepared to go beyond the
OCP in terms of density can you give a sense
of approximately how many stories the towers would be if
we if we wanted to retain slender towers
and that's complicated calculation it is a complicated calculation approach
and have all the top of my head but I
I would pretty outset can answer for you later in
the meeting I guess that's the point five density if
that was in the bill how many stories essentially
... based on the floor plate of each tower of
the floor area of each story in the tower
... how many stories with that point five of density
translate into I guess to be my question we get
that in a bit I will look at it for
you yeah thank you ... I guess the other question
is ...
that seems like the policy that council generally landed on
the OCP adopted was approximately twenty stories in some parts
of the downtown council was prepared to go a bit
higher ... I was in the minority in believing that
that sort of benchmark was too high but a majority
supported that ... but just wondering is there a risk
of essentially a slippery slope for
essentially when we start to talk about heights that are
fifty percent more than the OCP maximum in terms of
the number of stories does that policy then become meaningless
and is it really become either a guessing game or
just a
at issue of just political power and political struggle for
every applicant to maximize their return in is essentially every
should be almost treat every parcel is the fits the
tabula rasa with no regulations or no policy to guide
it really becomes just a guessing game of what if
council may or may not be prepared to accept on
any given parcel it does seem that we've sort of
our opening
that the discussion to that bike
the essential variance from 20 to 32 stories
through the mayor
this doesn't set a precedent council a
staff and council review every application on their own and
with this application of certainly it was literally and figuratively
looked at from every possible angle the staff took this
increase in height very seriously and that was why there
was just partially white took so long but the number
of studies were required the developer to do to look
at the buildings from different vantage points from across the
harbor from various points from the ground from up how
would be viewed to understand the the incremental difference between
podiums of this high that height wide building still in
buildings and so from an urban design perspective we finally
landed on yeah this is a big departure from the
policy but the advantages in terms of less impact on
the public realm is experienced when you're on the ground
was this was seen to be advantageous particular lead in
relation to it is rental housing and what is needed
to make a rental housing project work added in with
the advantages of gaining this large public plaza which is
needed in this neighborhood as well as some of the
other things that are on offer
thank you
thank you ... I am going to move the recommendation
if there's a seconder I do have some questions and
then some comments
is there anyone who will second the recommendation
thank you seconded by councillor alto ... this actually also
with my questions and then ... comments so ... the
the public space I think is a good proposal it's
very welcome ... it's nice to read and this is
my understanding that it's not all ... concrete like to
it there's a size comparison was to bastion square but
bastion square is very concrete but ... how do we
ensure that the public space really read size and feels
like public space like a space to stop and gather
a space for the public is welcome you know that
they're particularly the grassy area for for kids our picnics
that it that it feels public not just that the
public can pass through or you know tentatively set on
the edge of it how do we how do we
make sure that that's
because because this is the largest new public space if
this goes ahead that we will see in the downtown
in decades and so how do we make it really
public I guess that's my key question
thanks for the question ... yes ultimately the the legal
mechanism through that is ... will be requesting statue right
away ... so all they the proposal the price plaza
will be privately owned and privately maintained ... will be
securing public access A. Fritsche said the exact details of
how that agreement is written a yet to be determined
... that owes me to lead as the legal mechanism
... for insuring that that people have the right to
walk to okay right to use it as a you
know ... as we would expect to public space to
be and then there's also the second part of that
is the design of the space ... making sure that
and three subsequent DP's when the later phases ... if
let's face come forward ... that those are designed in
such a way that ... they they welcome people that
there's no you know there's a clear distinction between public
and private space and how those ... areas a landscaped
... what was seating areas like all those aspects will
be am fully reviewed and and ... detailed and the
subsequent development phases
thank you very much ... I'll make some comments I
think this is probably the most difficult land use decision
that has faced me personally ... ... in the almost
decade that I've sat at this table ... because it's
you know and we're asked to do this often but
not quite to this extent were asked to consider a
whole bunch of different approaches and different ... considerations when
we're looking at a land use proposal and as I
was reviewing this I scribbled in my notes something that
counselor Loveday said probably a couple of years ago ...
which is the OCP is not just a density document
and I think that's really what's being put in front
of us today ... is if we want all of
the things that we need for the future of our
city and and for me the biggest concern is is
housing in particular rental housing ... that we need to
push the limits of density and height ... or we're
not going to have the kind of city that that
we need which is ... inclusive and which is sustainable
... now I don't pretend that these are gonna be
affordable units no one does that's not the point ...
but what we saw in the housing futures report that
staff give us a couple of weeks ago is that
right now we're between forty five and sixty three hundred
units short just for the people who currently live here
... and there is a really interesting article in the
times colonist I guess a couple days ago that show
that even people who have like they can pay three
thousand dollars for rent can't find anywhere and so that
is weighing heavily on me and I and I I
think it it should weigh heavily on all of us
... and then the second piece again going back to
that housing future supply reports that that staff produced and
I do think that report was excellent that even and
this is important to this consideration even within the existing
O. C. P. if we build it out with that
the guidelines that are available ... to to twenty forty
one we're still twenty to thirty percent short of the
housing that we need for it not this is now
for future so we're from between forty five and sixty
three how
read units short now ... ends were twenty to thirty
percent under what we need for the future and I
just can't in good conscience turn back ... housing ...
particularly rental housing and I know that there this is
not gonna be unanimous but I hope it gets at
least five votes to move forward and I hope that
people who have conditions that they placed them on the
going forward there's already almost a whole alphabet of of
... and conditions that we need to get through to
get to public hearing anyway ... but but I I
do hope that we can kind of look at not
just do we like height or do we like density
... but what is it that our city needs to
be inclusive and sustainable for the future ... a couple
more things before cede the floor the the the conference
board of Canada put out a report of a few
years ago now ... about what it would take to
meet Canada's climate goals and I think it was a
twenty eighteen report how do we get to kind of
net zero by twenty fifty and what the report showed
in this is what's facing us today is that Canadians
generally aren't ready for or custom to the level of
density that's going to be needed in urban centres to
meet our climate goals and if we concentrate you know
fifteen hundred units a let's call it four thousand to
five thousand people ... in this area it means that
they can take their kids to the child care that's
in the building that they can walk to the grocery
store that they can that they essentially they can live
car light or car free and and forty percent of
our missions right now is in transportation so it's it
for me it's really climate and inclusivity and affordability and
just having the housing we need to ... and I
know these are affordable units but just like a person
who can't has makes three thousand Bucks can't even afford
to find anywhere right now because we are no places
so ... I hope that that when we're looking at
this today we won't just look at do we like
tall towers are not that will that will think about
everything that this a proposal offers for the future of
our city that's beyond just that the height in the
density so leave it at that I
really do look forward to the discussion accounts are also
is next as the seconder and then I'll come to
councillor Thornton Joe and councillor Potts
thanks very helps and ... I hadn't had a chance
to and ask questions previously so it certainly wanted to
make sure that there is an opportunity for further discussion
so I will start just by asking a few questions
them somewhere just clarification somewhere different ... what guarantee do
we have that there will be an equivalent or greater
number of affordable units in the next phase I understand
that we have the understanding that this twenty three out
of five hundred and tenants first face do we have
any such agreement
the twenty three units of affordable housing is the applicant's
proposal for both faces photos yeah for both phases yes
so I'm sorry I'm a bit confused earlier I thought
I heard a question that spoke to twenty three out
of five hundred and ten
that is correct it is it it they are proposed
to be delivered in the first phase ... but they
don't intend to include any affordable housing is part of
the later phases okay I'm glad I asked that question
was what I understood thanks very much for that ...
and ... just harkening back to the discussion about the
plaza ... which seems to be a sort of one
of the yep better amenities being proposed am I correct
in believing I heard you say this statutory right of
ways for the entire process so it's not just a
through piece of a plus it's for every part of
the plazas ... statutorily required to be open to the
public exactly the we through the legal agreements when we
if we get that ... phase will determine the actual
delineation of the ... where that such too much of
where plies it may exclude some commercial seating areas on
the fringes ... to avoid you know that conflict between
public and private but the exam ... the intent is
that the most the Max amount of the plaza will
be dedicated to start your trip ways and not just
to me to strip running down the middle the whole
plaza just a walkway yeah exactly okay okay thanks for
that I'm the one of the things it's in the
many conditions ... is a new wind study and what
do you want that to show what do you expect
that to show
so the reason we've asked for a ... an updated
Wednesday ... the and I don't I just this question
because I can talk about everything the presentation site ...
that there was a win city that was prepared ...
but it was ... it was modeled on and adding
a design concept when the stories were a at the
height sweat was slightly lower ... the podiums are slightly
tola ... so we just want to ... sure it
says that through the extra height that has been ...
... proposed ... to the stuff review process that doesn't
have any further ... negatives ... impacts on the public
room ... sorry the applicant has advised us that you
know that I did if you ... so in that
in the information to put in a win study that
it was actually a three D. model of the actual
proposal ... they have spoken to the wind consultants and
... they've indicated that the up these updates are relatively
straightforward and they don't need to remodel the whole thing
is ... is that the benefits of technology ... ...
they will be at each city updated ... and provided
to us in the future report for council's consideration great
thanks for that in your experience having obviously looked at
similar proposals do you expect a significant difference in the
outcome
for the the difference between when the depression when city
was created a model that is based on we don't
anticipate any changes it's more just to ... just being
absolutely certain that it doesn't have any impacts thanks for
that ... I was a little unclear about the whole
eighty P. reports and minutes it's a truck so if
I am just to clarify for my own understanding so
essentially eighty peas spent its consideration on the pros and
cons of the design manual
and less so on the actual applications would that be
fair
it was actually the ask through the mayor is actually
opposite they reviewed the development for the first phase of
the detailed design but they did not refuse the design
manual okay and so this will not go back to
eighty P. for any reason it's done that's what the
case
staff are not recommending that it goes back to try
to design panel but see that decision if council which
is that's great
what happens is
I try to ask this question but
since the plaza is in the last phase and I
think you indicated it could be some years before that's
actually concluded ... I realize it is a legal agreement
that would be in place if this goes forward but
what happens if five years from now circumstances indicate that
the plaza has to be materially different what what recourse
with the city has
I think you know with the ... it's been a
big discussion amongst the planning stuff is you know how
we secure a high quality plaza ... at this stage
when we don't really know what the details about Tom
and I think you know there will be some careful
word smithing of of the the terms of that lease
agreement to make sure that eight eight does meet a
certain standard ... but it also allows flexibility for you
know you for example technology changes new materials come out
something you know you may ... be developed that we're
not aware of ... and this one's being corporation the
plaza we need to be able to catch the drafting
these agreements we need to make sure there's enough flexibility
that to account for those changes over time and that
may happen ... but ultimately at the end of the
day if something comes forward and like to face is
that doesn't meet the terms of the lease agreement it
would need to come back to council for reconsideration right
so if for some reason years from now the design
had to change for whatever reason and that had an
impact on the design of the plaza staff would be
in a position to review that are to oversee that
I guess and it was materially different it would come
back to that council to say looks different now what
do you think how would that affect the whole it
lets if this is approved today or over this goes
on until I guess sounds like you'll be next year
or the year after before family gets to public hearing
but
at some point how how does it
windows staff get a chance to look at that no
through four years down the road
it would be through a developer have it when the
development comes in ... for the later phases that's when
the the design of the plaza and the surrounding built
form will be locked down right okay great and the
plaza would have to be consistent with the design guidelines
what type which talk about the high quality durable materials
and if you council's opinion it wasn't then council would
also have the ability to send it back right okay
great thanks for that that's very reassuring
I think the question is is gonna ask about how
many extra stories but I think that's the same as
councillor Isitt's question which you're going to look into I
think ... and based on some of the questions of
the comments I've heard from my colleagues
what would be the effect you think of asking the
applicant to separate the two properties
to have essentially to individual applications this earlier questions about
why it's coming together as one from glamour at
I have in theory they could separate it and we
could be dealing with two applications in front of you
today
and in all likelihood we would have chosen to give
you one presentation so that you could understand how the
proposal works together ...
so from a process or from your perspective the staff
review perspective wouldn't really have made any difference no correct
okay thanks for that and ... my last
students very very help for taking so long but I
I said turning down a dish but you don't have
to apologize the motion is now on the floors of
questions and comments are still in order and if there
will be lots of time for everyone to say everything
that needs to be set and asks for much so
just ...
I guess I just have to ask questions and was
there ever any conversation with the applicant about including more
affordable units and the twenty three
there was silence conversations about ... the minutes he's being
proposed and ultimately the applicant has chosen to put ...
twenty better phrase all the eggs in that basket of
being the plaza and putting ... thought is that that
...
best selling feature for the application of the biggest ...
community meeting as part of the proposal do you have
any sense of whether there be an opportunity to consider
a greater number of affordable units
I guess the question
it's also council which is okay and then the my
last question I think you've answered but just to clarify
... if you mentioned just at the end of your
other questions the ... the so called design manual that's
being as part of this application it only really has
any present value for this application right it doesn't it
doesn't have a precedent for any surrounding your future applications
no every application that comes forward to council is considered
under the existing policy so unless council changes the policy
and even if the policy did change heights are not
appropriate everywhere so even if council said okay gosh you
can go up to twenty five stories all around here
some sites just don't suit it it's not right for
the context thanks for that thanks for answering those questions
... I really appreciated actually the mayor's earlier comments because
I think it's really easy to look at this application
in its totality this this portion of it for me
has very few questions around height or density because I
actually think that it's it's quite suitable for the area
when you look at the totality of the application which
includes the next phase because phase two and then I
think there is certain certainly there's discomfort I think around
both the height and the density
because it's huge
getting around it it's huge and I think that that
is a really anomalous and unusual for Victoria and I
I am very cognizant of the discussions that are under
way but we don't want to look like the old
town ... and certainly there's aspects of the urban nature
of Vancouver and other cities which are not ones that
I think we want to reflect in the to raise
a city of a I know that we're only under
a hundred thousand but I think it is a city
of several hundred thousand of the area
... but I've I really do appreciate mayor helps comments
because I think that there is no doubt that there
is discomfort and unease in looking at this type of
density and these types of towers and at the same
time ... if we try to broaden the analysis of
this beyond height certainly ... and beyond the density to
a certain extent a little that I have less reservations
about that the concentration of residents in this area makes
sense and it's it's ...
it's a harder vision to embrace it really is because
I think ... I think I've commented a number of
times in the city of Victoria is now a city
and ... it's not any longer really large town it
is a relatively small city comparatively speaking but it's a
city and it for all of the other laudable reasons
to which we've made commitments around a concentration of residence
for the purposes of ensuring the future viability of the
environment and ... ... the contributions that we can make
to a mitigating climate change is as little as that
might be in the short term
and the ability to provide housing for a range of
individuals ... I think this is the type of thing
we're going to have to seriously consider in a certain
portion of our downtown ... and I think this is
part of the portion I do have some reservations about
this I would like to see more affordable units in
this you know I was a little bit ... com
to by doing the calculations of thinking of twenty three
of the five hundred and ten because that's four and
a half percent ... but I'm let's call him when
I think of twenty three out of I think it's
almost fifteen hundred units in total in the end ...
so that's
that's not great and and I would highly suggest the
applicant wanted to have a slightly easier road for this
past however goes that would be beneficial to have a
higher number of affordable units offered us so that's that's
still a big reservation for me ... but I think
...
my reservations about the plaza have been a bit a
bit of Swedish by the answers of staff around the
legalities of ensuring that that will in fact happen I
wish there was a little bit more that could happen
in the first phase because it's always a bit uneasy
making to ... to think of the phase developments like
this look across the water and we look at you
know the railyards and and ... and how many years
it took to do ... both that and land ...
... dockside green and that the kind of the fits
and starts that had and we didn't quite get everything
we wanted when we thought we would and so on
again if president that isn't great also would be it
would be helpful to be able to think that there's
some more public amenities that could be in phase one
... so that that could be something that is seen
... earlier ... but I I guess I have to
go back to the fact that the reservations that I
have I have to be balanced against the product this
is producing ... and like I guess my last question
I asked this ... and other times is that ...
was reminder that when we look at applications like this
we're looking at the proposal and not at the applicant
correct
and still consider the applicant we consider the proposal and
so you know there there may or may not be
... other questions that arise and that and that ...
venue but it's not something that is the
relevant to this consideration so ... at its is not
easy and I agree with mayor helps comments that this
may be one of the most profound decisions that this
council makes around land use and residents but
no rentals density climate change environments ... concentration of people
I think on balance ... it should go forward for
a conversation I think there are I think her help
she referred to the alphabet of conditions and I think
that once all those conditions are made it will take
so long to do that that ... will certainly have
an opportunity for there to be additional commentary made
... by the public and perhaps even some additional conditions
added by some council members today or or in the
future so
I'm not gonna be a wildly enthusiastic support of this
moving forward but on the materials presented I think on
balance ... the balances even and I believe I will
be supporting this moving forward today
okay thank you ... I am sorry if I missed
people's hands in there and I don't I might not
have everyone in the right order but I've got councillor
Thornton Joe Potts Loveday eyes an indigo ... and then
young ... councillor Joe it you are first a what
do you start your comments and then we'll take a
little bit lunch break and you'll have the floor when
we come back thank you ... if before I make
my statements ... just just a question ... mmhm and
I just I think I've seen it in
some of the other documents that we receive when we
talk about our population and what the capital region's ...
our goal for population and how much of that is
expected in the city of Victoria ...
and then when we look at the neighborhoods ... what
kind of population growth we're looking we're expecting in neighborhoods
so I'm not sure if the staff can answer this
question but are we on par on route to meeting
our the city's population growth and
and is the screen downtown here screen neighbourhood my understanding
is I would think I was told that it's actually
one of the neighbors of the is exceeded the expectations
of of growth do we do know that or do
we have staff that to be able to get that
information
Mrs
through the mayor I don't have all the details at
my fingertips ... that ... as noted in our housing
futures report ... we are R. O. C. P. ...
is not on track for meeting the population growth that
... we are anticipated to need ... the
if I recall correctly ... we were looking at a
lot of growth happening in our neighborhood centers and that
hasn't helped happened ... the downtown I believe this is
generally on par and ... not much of the growth
was gonna happen in our our neighborhoods ... if you'd
like some numbers so I can ... take a look
at the housing futures report in and get you some
additional information about yes thank you if in fact some
point ... that can be chief that big that be
great I'm I'm just serve for my three minutes and
left ... I think this is not ready to ...
moved to public hearing I think the
I'm part of that is is the difficulty in separating
the overall rezoning of all the parcels and the development
permit of of this property which I'm a little bit
more in favor of ... but I I you know
I went to the downtown business association the Cao Luke
and ... the concerns of neighbourhood ... represent the residents
in the neighborhood about the the increase ... height ...
did you know I I think the plazas great ...
but ... you know that I've heard many times from
the downtown residents that what they're really looking for a
four is green space and a and a park ...
where you know ... dogs can play our children can
climb ... ... place fractures ... so I'm I'm not
quite confident that ... we we have a right when
it comes to the the ...
I forget the term again that was used for the
the design ... manual ... when I was at the
ADP meeting no there were comments about the scale of
significance and
you know that ... we are starting to look more
like Toronto and and Vancouver and and less of what
makes a Victoria ... it's charm
I I think that there's some more work to be
done to reduce some of that the height ... I
do feel that ... there isn't enough affordable housing for
what is being asked and I know ... I think
in the presentation we have this morning on on the
the neighborhoods there was talk about ... they talked they
would like to see a variety of housing options and
I think that this application or the ... the rezoning
could could have more options I know this company does
more of does rental but I I would envision for
these pieces you know whether it is any one of
them being a condominium whether it could be a affordable
condominium minute like as some of the work that chart
development has done ... and as we know many of
the condos in downtown and there's street ... because of
the the the conditions that we place on it owners
can rent their their ... their units and so although
we don't have a lot of rental units that are
rental of I I I would say that we have
a lot of people renting in many of the condos
that are being built so I would like would like
to see more affordable I would like to see more
diversity of of housing perhaps one of the units of
buildings being ... affordable condominium ... and because of that
perhaps it would change the scale of of ... the
land left that me have produced some of the highlights
I've got more to say but I know this is
twelve thirty one thank you I appreciate you respecting that
so well when we get back we'll start with councillor
Thornton Joe ... and then ms Wayne has an answer
to councillor Isitt's question so we'll go to that next
and then we'll go through the speakers list point of
order yes is the Coriolis consultant going to be available
will the corals consultant be available after lunch
that is the intent yes but we can double check
okay perfect thank you
okay we'll see is all at 115
back at home we are on
councillor Dubow still has my agenda before on the
nine two three nine oh one nine eleven one forty
five units all those addresses on the screen yeah councillor
Thornton Joe has the floor ... and then we're going
to go to ms lane when she returns ... has
the information accounts are as a request earlier and then
we've got the rest of council still to speak so
councillor Thornton had
I sent the ball confirm my concerns being
I do think the the over thirty ... stories is
more than I feel ... even if it's up on
the land left in the
... what is being offered to meet some of the
goals of but I I think the word amenities now
more more
and some of the things that we accept as
sort of ... helping or or ... contribute to support
of the applications it is starting to drift a little
bit from what I think are amenities for the neighborhood
so when we start to look at daycare sure many
residents may be able to use a daycare but it
could be others from throughout the region or in all
of that live in some other municipality but work downtown
... when you look at ... some of sometimes the
green there is a pre patios are great amenities for
the people that live there but maybe not so much
... for for for ... ... downtown as a whole
when I look at the large report on some of
the the street furniture or the right aways or you
know other other things centre they're paying for that the
city would normally have to do once again very positive
but ... whether they're there the amenities ... that should
be included ... when it comes to ... being able
to be given this degree out of heightened density I
am concerned about the amount of time that it may
take for the other stage of some for those of
us within the table I think ... with counselor young
I think ... the dockside and real yards have almost
been about fifteen years is that maybe not maybe twenty
on one of them I think when I first came
on council one of them ... what's it was so
hard by by the developer I'm not saying that this
is this could happen but I I'm just concerned about
at the time of for some of the other amenities
and
I you know I'm really surprised that affordable housing is
consider really up ... something we should celebrate when it's
twenty three units out of the office of five hundred
ten in just this this section and then the other
... phases what I heard was none have been proposed
... whether that would change I think we need to
ensure that not only ... we need to ensure that
the for this to go forward it is proposed ...
and that ... they work also with the ... the
G. R. A. to see if the amenity of the
plaza is is what's desire for downtown residents or whether
there's something more that ... they should be considering and
whether one ... ...
yeah
until building could be as I said affordable ... condo
I think we need a bit of a more of
a mix of that is being offered so I'm concerned
that I think ... as some
... mayor helps you said you hoped that there could
be least PM at George's send it to public hearing
well in the past we've had many times where it
just has had a majority and then it has lost
and defeated by council and then we come back in
and it gets us to be looked at again and
I think ... I'm concerned that this one is just
not ready and needs more ... more time the question
I did have that I don't think it has been
answered or maybe I missed it is for those of
us are familiar with the screen area especially around that
section being ... problematic with its ground I think when
we have a ticket councillor young just to call the
roller coaster ride on on Vancouver street ... and and
... there was some ground concerns is the fact something
that may impact any of this development
through the mayor we we could check with the applicant
I know certainly the properties immediately to the south of
the site have that condition I wouldn't be surprised if
this also has some challenging ground conditions okay yeah yeah
I think there's just a lot of unanswered questions for
it to move to a public hearing and I'm and
as the mayor hopes that there's a majority that will
support I'm hoping the majority will see that it needs
more work
thank you very much councillor Potts
oh sorry ms lane with that will council is not
back yet so I don't think there's much point sharing
the information he needs so we'll I didn't think about
that though but we'll go to you and when he
gets back we'll share that information ... fair enough thanks
so much thanks for the presentation ... on this in
the information so far ... I think I guess comments
and questions are it's in order everything's in order you
that I think that it's ... we should be able
to density and housing in in in general and I
am nothing about the height actually concerns me but I
still have some questions that councillor Loveday asked around the
... the lands left and I don't know if or
if ... Mr urbis back on the line or
I am here councillor thank you ... just kind of
looking at starlets owned kind of documents look at it
and looking at the rental market fundamentals in BC they
they do seem to ... suggested the Canadian multi family
sector is particularly well positioned to generate attractive returns they
have a three point strategy our proof three point three
points around it ... in it including the ability to
acquire assets at discounted valuations and the capability to maximize
value creation through repositioning efforts such as increasing rents and
so just looking at how they're really looking at rising
demand for purpose built rental in BC and scarcity of
product as a reason to move into this market just
wondering how that kind of ... in and then also
other reports that at that there are more and more
acquisitions of rental properties and and development of rental without
this is the same kind of devaluation that we have
as seen previously like how that might affect it into
the land left it seems that there there are changing
conditions and ... there are quite a few more investments
from
particularly I'm a real estate investment trusts in BC and
I'm just wondering how if that does factor into the
land left in house
thanks for that question counsellor ... so it does factory
... what we what we have done in our analysis
is taken into account to that grants city in Victoria
as well as other parts of western Canada are on
the rise and so in our in our financial analysis
we've made assumptions that the rental market will be stronger
and stronger in terms of generating income to the owner
of rental buildings going forward
so not that flows into the the forecasts of the
potential revenue that come from the proposed buildings that starlight
is proposing in this particular instance
so even with that that calculation they're still there
the land left analysis still would I reflected a devaluation
of the land of Christina forty two million
yes that's correct ... can I just add a little
bit to
what goes into that ... if I if I may
so I know it may be surprising for people in
that you know you've got a rental apartment project that's
seeking significant additional density it may be surprising to find
that it doesn't create extra land value and and may
in fact decrease the estimated land value ... and it
really the the knob of it is that
the site has so many employees that is permitted to
be used for condominium development for strata apartment and when
you compare strata development course strata project with a comparable
rental project what's really happening is
the value of the completed building is much much higher
in the condo scenario than it is in the rental
scenario not saying that brands aren't high but from from
an apartment building investors perspective the total for the rental
buildings just not valued as high as the comparable condo
building and so
the reality is the cost of building those two different
forms of housing are very very similar ... slight differences
but by and large there's not a huge difference on
the construction costs so because the condo building is worth
so much more
in the rental building upon completion it just effectively comes
out of the land value or the process one one
or the other or both extent and that's what's happened
in this particular exercise in terms of the analysis that
what we're effectively saying is that a rental developer if
they have to pay
land values that are based on condominium last outliers which
which is the case in this particular instance the require
a very large increase in permitted density ... in order
to try to hold things together financially so I hope
that helps with the center
yes yes thank you for that the further explanation it
if it's still
so it feels a bit challenging first the the reasons
you you laid out there ... I I wonder to
staff it is there ... a dollar figure for the
... additional contributions interim I know there is we saw
the dollar figure for the art public art installation but
for ... some of the ... you know the plaza
installation ... some of the infrastructure right of way ...
improvements
is there ... any dollar figure touch that do you
Sir if that's not very clear do you know how
much the applicant is putting into those ... those amenities
through the mayor ... that there is some plants that
question for the for the public realm improvements we don't
assign a dollar value for that because the applicant is
... is paying for it so ... ... we care
about is the standard that that making the public aware
women treatments to and that any tell policy ... with
regard to the plaza ... we are currently working to
that number we haven't we haven't landed on anything just
yet ... but as per the staff recommendation we will
be ... verifying ... the the the dollar value for
the plaza with independent Quincy surveyor will qualify professional prior
to public hearing so there will be a number assigned
to that and it will be ... we will factor
in ... inflation rates ... at the time ... the
of the see if the plazas to be realized five
years down the line for example
thank you thank you and
I'd just as on the tenants assistance plan ... I
I I I respect ... the the staff report on
that that
there is there seems to be comfort in and
again completed a tenant assistance policy at a later date
at
a given experience so at the public hearing sometimes information
feels ... the eight you know it's just shared from
one side to the other it does feel like it
would I would have much more comfort if that was
... in place prior to up up at sending this
forward to public hearing and just because that's a very
important element I think of of our policy so I
think that's more of a a comment and I guess
I just a final comment ...
again I think that we really need to be bold
in terms of building I think that there is all
there is benefit in and ... and looking at the
development of this scale ... I did I did and
I do look forward to hearing the rest of my
colleagues comments I I do feel like there is more
that can be generated from this particular development given the
in the applicant's own understanding of how much a wealth
this will generate and ... and what a lucrative opportunity
... so I think that
there is great potential here but I think it may
be a few refinements will really help at garner more
support for this project
okay thank you M. before eight ... before the floor
leaves you councillor Potts ... use he suggested some more
refinements ... the way to do that would be through
amendment if you're ready willing and able ...
I would like to listen to the rest of my
colleagues and then okay perfect then I can yeah thank
you that's that's fair as well so maybe we can
all keep list of as a potential amendments as well
based on what people have said ... yeah councillor Isitt
is back ms Wayne can you give the information that
you that was requested earlier
yes thanks and just to summarize for what else benefit
... councillor eyes it was asking us ... the difference
in floor a number of stories um if the applicant
was to reduce the density from what's being proposed down
to what the OCP supports which is five point five
to one episode so we did when those numbers ...
in the breaking things there's a time for that and
it works out to be approximately three and a half
stories tower
if that helps three and a half stories less per
tower yes okay so yes less sorry input some PCS
three now street last
do I have the floor you don't ... but you'll
get it back
councillor Loveday is next in cancer as a Dubow young
yeah I'm gonna stick with
questions watch second street comments ... who ... more questions
... what with our
housing policies what would be the annual or the monthly
rent on a median housing unit
through the mayor we do you have ... our housing
plan is ... who worked on the tenant assistance plan
on the line ... I'm hoping they are listening ...
I think it may be best directed to this stuff
so you the question is what would the monthly rent
be according to the city's housing affordability policy yeah on
the on the units that are considered affordable but they're
two medium great so so ms Tunis are you the
best person to answer that question
hello sorry bout that ... I'm just I think I'll
defer to ... ... ms Wayne on on that who
is dealing directly with the housing agreement as I
just sorry just looks for clear answer for clarity I
think what we need is just what does the city's
housing affordability policy safe what is the what's the rent
for median people are earning a median income according to
our definition of affordability what's the what's the rent and
maybe with this is something we need to just let
staff have a look at the policy and get back
that would
we do have ... another member stuff and housing planning
Margot ... who's of the times that question okay Mister
might as go ahead
... yeah thank you mayor and council so I'm just
looking at our Victoria housing strategy ... and we have
a tabled affordable rents so the median income ... average
rents for a bachelor unit is eight hundred and seventy
five dollars per month one bedroom ... one thousand fifty
two bedroom is ... one thousand three hundred and a
three bedroom is seventeen fifty
I hope that helps and that's just taken straight from
the Victoria housing strategy section on housing affordability
yes that does help I'm basically what I'm doing is
I'm looking at the rents that are currently being paid
on by the people who will be displaced and ...
their rents are available within the
... the tenant assistance plans and in so trying to
see
how how comparable they are to what's being replaced it's
still a very
minimal amount of affordable housing that's being proposed as part
of this development when ... especially when looking at fifteen
units are being lost at that are are that are
at attainable rates ...
specifically a couple ... three two bedrooms as well ...
so I and I'm not sure the
the unit mix of the full ... development here and
that's that's one question I have is ... in leaders
stages what guarantees do we have that there will be
family housing ... and that it will just be bachelors
thank you for the question yet with like you say
and we don't have the the final unit right down
to the later phases however we do know is that
there are townhouses ... proposed again be flanking the squat
the public plaza ... on the view street green for
example ... so is it is anticipated that the mix
will be similar to the first phase
on this part of the first phase wait while we
ought we are tying down the ... the exact unit
makes illegal agreements ... as part of the first phase
um so there is there is the option to consider
... a similar mix is possibly to faces through the
legal agreement
so is it possible then to
it is what I'm hearing that it would be possible
to ... request or require at legal agreement now that
would lock in
unit mixes on the future buildings I think I would
have to be some ... element of flexibility ... given
the fact we don't know what the total numbers up
but ... I don't see there being any issues with
... having a proportional amount ... for example you just
have to be carefully what it
well I will state
my intent to make a an amendment of that sort
... and leave it up to our competent staff to
figure out the the right wording ... to make that
as careful that needs to be ...
looking
at the
plaza what is anticipated to be
considering we we just have conceptual designs at this point
is there ...
what is the impediment to requiring a detailed design at
this point that could then be the legal obligation moving
forward ...
yes Sir is the applicant has obviously come forward with
the development of just for the first phase ... and
ultimately yeah we we don't have a development for that
for the latest plaza if the applicant had agreed to
come forward with a development for the plaza the the
any limiting factor I suppose from that perspective will be
timing typically develop permits have an expiration date of two
years so they would need to begin construction on the
normal amount payments ... timing ... they would need to
S. substantially stock committee ... construction within two minutes two
years of that development being issued out of see we
we mentioned earlier in the meeting that you know if
the timing of that is for you not going to
happen to at least five years from now ... however
council does have the authorization to provide a development with
a longer time frame ... but ultimately we don't we
don't have the down payment for the
plaza at this stage so we're trying to secure rate
through other mechanisms legal agreement the design guidelines ... ...
the conceptually zoning booklet or days will play into the
leak agreements for how how that plazas realized
just if I if I may add something
there's another part to this that if even if the
applicant did hurt the development permit for the entire site
right now and council approved of development permit lap state
of several years out there's nothing to compel a developer
to build the exact they they can come forward with
a new development permit so ... there's always the possibility
that a design may change but it has to go
back to council and council needs can
approve it or not
yeah and I think
you know obviously what we're trying to do is
get as much as of what is ... promised in
terms of the plaza to be ... locked in through
legal agreements as early as possible and ... make sure
that it is actually the amenity that it's purported to
be ... you know we
you go to it you go to some majors cities
that have ... towers and huge plazas and there's nobody
in because they're really poorly designed and it's you know
it's one of the biggest public you know because I
public spaces in the neighborhood ... but if people are
choosing to sit ...
anywhere else because it's ... you know it's a dead
zone that's in the shadow of a large building so
we we wanna make sure that this is thoughtfully designed
and I think
I think the route I I personally would have more
comfort if there is ...
Sir to a detailed design before voting on
a rezoning that would then grant them the right to
that ...
density at least within the OCP I don't know if
there's further comments or if I'm just ranting at this
point but I'm turning your comments into amendments okay ...
create
maybe I will all
I'll see the floor for now okay thank you all
come back to and councillor Potts I turn your comments
into amendments to so ... maybe when it's time to
come back to me I can try some of them
I councillor Isitt people young
... I think ... for redevelopment of these parcels parcels
to be suitable ... I think the applications need to
substantially rain in ... the ... aspirations particularly with respect
to height ... I think the inconsistency with policy breaches
way too far ... I think the cleanest way to
proceed would be with the referral motion ... hearing that
other colleagues have potential amendments I think ... those could
still be accomplished through amendments to a referral motion so
I think now is as good a time as any
to attempt referral motion so I'd like to move that
the application be referred to staff
to work with the applicant
to revise the application
to achieve greater consistency
with the OCP
particularly as it pertains
to the height of the towers
and the density
second by councillor Thornton Joe okay go ahead I believe
I motivated with my comments prior to moving the referral
motion soul listen to my colleagues councillor Thornton Joe was
a seconder to the referral motion and then councillor Dubow
just a question to the mover when you mention ...
amendments that councillors might make where with that I think
it could be right now so it could be an
amendment to you could amend the referral motion to add
additional language for other things you would want to see
addresses visitor
okay
I want to see if there's any other speakers first
let me get my thought okay thank you councillor Dubow
point of order
to explain the material part of a previous okay ...
it could be simply and it could be a river
amendments could be support and to the could just be
added at the end any additional points thank you okay
thank you councillor Dubow ... thanks mayor helps ... I
do agree a lot of comments that has being raised
previously on speaking on this and motion on the floor
I'll come back my comments to the original and to
the application but speaking on the motion I would also
like to move amendment to the mall and to the
motion
on
she vice and a and the yeah
he did do you do units
why is the improvise the number of doing units to
reflect more free and
3 on 2 bedrooms
do you mean for all phases
all faces okay
okay moved and seconded so now we're on an amendment
to the referral motion ... with the mover like to
motivate and then I'll go to the seconder yes mayor
helps thank you I I think there's this perception that
the printer is are looking one fateful and but that's
not the case and in my perspective I say renter
on and I've seen a lot of rain too is
when you have three bedrooms and one is cheaper second
you have your own community in terms of sharing and
the that that the units ... and one one room
there could be coupled in the other room there could
be a couple so that created small as send software
and community on and on and also ease prophetical and
in terms of increasing not only family unit spot Mirantis
also pretty fair and and two or three bedrooms because
of the cost but it is because of socializing and
having and other household this in the house so ...
yeah I believe this always perception wrenches and preferred one
pencil but in my experience that's not the case okay
thank you very much the seconder to the amendment councillor
Austin I'm gonna propose an amendment ... which is the
number of units ... I guess replace that with unit
mix
okay is there a seconder seconded by councillor Loveday
okay a discussion on changing number of units to unit
mix
all those in favor how did you wanna speak any
opposed okay that's just basically a language to okay okay
councillor Isitt you still have the floor and boy you
can I just say how nice it is to have
everybody here I don't have to ask anyone to turn
on their cameras it's just great go ahead I support
this ... I think with the building with buildings that
are so large and have so many units envisioned we
do have to make sure they're appropriate for families and
... so I think ...
... nudging the applicant in this direction is a good
step to take okay anyone else want to comment on
this councillor Thornton Joe
wish to staff when we talk about
units sold whether it's a bachelor or one bedroom
is there any can you remind me of the recall
is there a requirement of a size so say for
example if a motion was from four to at more
affordable housing could then the applicant take to affordable
bachelors and make an even smaller making three it looks
so is there any record are we saying we want
more of a mix ... that we're insuring that the
sizes of the units are actually
appropriate
and not that we just get a mix but they're
smaller and smaller think of a question we don't actually
have any regulations in the zoning bylaw ... at this
particular location that stipulated Eminem's unit size in some sense
throughout the city there is a basic requirement but that
typically in the low density neighborhoods not in the downtown
okay I will support this but I was just curious
on
on on size of units okay thank you
I thank you on the amendment that's on the table
councillor young no okay I'm I'm I'm gonna speak on
the amendment ... I support this but only as part
of the main motion to move this forward ... as
I said earlier I think sort of the stick to
the yes it more two and three bedroom units would
be welcome ... I think sending this forward with our
stipulations rather than back with their stipulations I fundamentally don't
support the motion to refer but I will as I
guess I won't support the amendment even though in principle
I do I just want council to know that I
would support this as added to up forward it ...
for for revision but not send it back ... so
I'll leave it at that so I guess I won't
support the amendment even though in principle I do ...
anyone else wanna speak on the amendment
okay all yes councillor Loveday
yeah it's kind of an interest we're in an interesting
place because if there is ... there's an a motion
to refer that is ... based on opposition to the
height and density ... and I personally can't support sending
it to public hearing today ...
but if the if the proposal had ... more in
terms of affordability unit mix ... amenities locked in and
all of the things that are laid out in the
in the report as ... going forward I think I
need to see that at a committee of the whole
I can't I don't have ... you know we talked
about leaps of faith and trust I don't have that
trust going into the public hearing so I need to
see it again ... and ...
but we're in a weird place because we've got this
referral that's based on a very specific thing ... rather
than ...
love the other ... issues that have been raised by
other colleagues thank you just a point of processes for
council's information ... based on what councillor they said I
could have this wrong but I don't think I do
because I just checked in with some answers about it
we will see this again at a committee of the
whole because of the OCP amendment is that correct so
this will come back to committee of the whole anyway
even if we don't refer it because the OCP amendment
has to come back to committee of the whole can
staff confirm that's correct that's correct okay thank you
so on this amendment any further discussion
yes go ahead so with that one
why then is it
recommended the way it is with with all of these
stipulations of of work that is yet to be done
that we're sort of being asked to approve today ...
in in will will all that be work by that
date be done by the time it would come back
for the OCP ... the discussion
yes the way the recommendation is worded is so that
of all of the items listed as a through
R. or whatever whatever the
the although that are that we would be concurrently working
on all those legal agreements all those revisions things that
we need the applicant to address plus anything council wants
to add the OCP referral would occur so that it
would be referred out it to where staff are recommending
to owners and occupiers within two hundred meters of the
subject property and then there'll be a follow up committee
of the whole report that would button this all down
back to committee of the whole for council finally considered
whether it was ready to take it to first and
second reading
so N. we would at that point receive all of
the public input from the two hundred
eater
mailer yes that's correct thank you
okay thank you on this amendment here to review amend
the referral motion counselor Loveday and counselor sorry councillor Dubow
thanks mayor helps and I I I do support on
... on ... it it it's nice to see the
the rest of the consistent pattern because one thing I
want to guarantees I don't and actually support the the
whole projects for our cities but I I I I
just wanna achieve as much as icon interim resolve to
include if it might be supported the rest of the
council because the one the the words capacity on supply
that treat all the units are secret violence but that
are hugely important differences between units I'm not the least
affordable so and Lisa this is one and making sure
that is a lie and the unit size is increased
but there is a lot of other things that I
I do not support in the application
on this amendment all those in favor of the amendment
those opposed
I am opposed in principle I guess okay so the
amendment carries ... now back to the motion to refer
as amended accounts for young and then I'd like to
add myself and then councillor Thornton Joe
thank you I'm I'm ... wrestling with the ... with
the motion on the floor
a little bit
I I think it does hit the main the main
issue ...
obviously a lot of issues have been raised for us
... the ... the DRA report with public comments ...
raised concerns about the project not being necessary
or that they preferred the current configuration of the London
drugs block or that there's been enough building
... in the neighborhood and people are tired of it
or that ... starlight is not a good term rental
manager
those those are issues that
I don't I don't think we can really ... address
in in ... a decision ... it is true there's
been a lot of building and Victoria lately but ...
and it is true it's hard to drive around the
downtown without to
bumping into lanes that are closed for construction but ...
that's just the nature of how
the development proceeds it's seems to ... seems to come
in in waves
... certainly having been this is my second London drugs
rezoning and ... at the time of the first one
it was felt there was a concern that London drugs
was in fact to suburban type development it's it's it's
basically a big store with parking in front of it
that people ... felt at that time might be more
suitable to a suburban area ... it was on the
fringes of downtown it seems to have been quite successful
people like it ... but perhaps it is true that
it's time now ... to ... to move on
I guess what might be my reservations about the motion
to refer in this farm
is that it is not providing a lot of guidance
to the developer
in terms of how to how to achieve that
... and ... that's partly because there's an inconsistency of
a split on council and ... a number of of
... my colleagues have expressed their desire for more affordability
... within the project and that of course means ...
in essence that some some kind of ... the developer
according to ... certainly according to the land left analysis
is going to require more density rather than last
I would say I'm more in the school of councillor
Thornton Joe
... suggested and again this reflects exactly a comment from
the ... Coriolis consultant ... which is that a lot
of this density we are told this is because we
are requiring a this project to be entirely rental
I am by no means clear that by the time
the developer is facing a decision to build that the
current situation of there being a lot of demand for
rental and fairly robust rental rates is still going to
apply I think it it may well be that ...
that the lady is a lot longer than we think
it will be easy ... perhaps indefinite in in the
sense that at some point the owner will come back
and say we just can't builders there's not enough interest
in rental ... and and ... given the densities even
the densities that are there ... we can't we can't
achieve it
so and and
and as I say that the problem is that there's
a split on council at the moment between those who
... maybe people prepared to live with a density but
want more affordability and ... those who feel well maybe
of a mixed up proposal who with some ... condominiums
oops under one of these affordable condominium programs and less
rental might allow the developer to proceed with the project
...
at
at a at a lower density and then the other
alternative of course is to
... really put our planning staff's feet to the fire
and ask them that the same question and I did
ask ms Wayne earlier ... but perhaps they could give
... further consideration to which is ... would the eastern
most of block after block that phase one stand on
its own and would they be prepared to recommend that
and come forward with a recommendation on ... that block
alone and leave the entire issue of the nine hundred
block ... up in the air ... and I I
don't know whether
... whether that is ... direction that in the end
council might
might need to go
... hi I. E. hi I did have a bit
of discussion with the DRA board about about this ...
the public open space and perhaps not quite enough attention
has been paid to it I suggested that the D.
R. A.'s most recent letter did indicate they had a
concern
... that this space would turn into essentially ... Caperton
sidewalk cafeterias spilling out from restaurants ...
adjunct to retail space of course and so forth and
would not actually present as usable public open space
... there's also the whole issue of the management of
the space and what exactly a public right of way
means ...
I just confirmed on the way over here from
the city hall that indeed as just one example our
regulations on the CRD's regulations on smoking in public parks
are are not very vigorously enforced ... and do you
know on on any day you can say see people
smoking in the parks are bylaw staff and police have
a lot more to do than ... ticketing people for
smoking
a private manager would just say to those individuals ...
you must leave there's no smoking here but I can't
arrest you but
you can you can't be here and that would apply
to a whole lot of behaviors like
camping for example ... that we as a city either
do cannot or choose not to enforce ... but a
private owner of a publicly accessible space ... might want
to enforce in and indeed surrounding residents might want to
see in force
... so I think the the issue of how the
public open space is to be managed as well as
the design of it ... needs ... some more ...
consideration ... in the end I will ...
probably support this referral motion but I'm very conscious that
it's ...
it leaves open the whole issue of how it is
to be achieved
... and what response the developer will come back with
and I
a
I don't think it's worth my suggesting at this moment
that
we would be
entertain more condominiums because I don't think that would be
supported by council I think ... requirement for more affordability
would be working in the opposite direction
... and it's even possible as I say that we
might we might see the developer come back with a
split up proposal so in the end I am for
reasons that I think my colleagues have
have a dress I think there is just a little
bit too much density here I think there's a lot
of promise in the proposal I'd like the idea of
the public space in the downtown which as you said
mayor helps is is very badly needed ... and I
think we do have to be careful about it exactly
how it's designed and and managed ... meant to nail
those things down ... at this moment ... I am
I I think there is I am basically I I
think I think we received some thoughtful feedback that the
heights I just a little more than than people want
to see we've we've so far we have not had
a lot of objections to height in the downtown ...
but I I think it we were starting to I
think ... get some push back people are starting to
feel maybe we're going a little bit too far with
heights and densities hello we are all well aware of
the of the benefits of of those high towers ...
but hi I think on balance time ... I'm going
to ...
support this motion to refer okay thank you on the
motion to refer I've got councillor Thornton Joe and then
myself councillor Joe go ahead
do we deal with move the time at two oh
yes thank you for reminding me I thought yes we
need a motion to extend the meeting till three thirty
I think would be reasonable councillor Thornton Joe is there
a seconder second by councillor Potts all those in favor
of so doing any opposed thanks councillor Joe so I'd
like to add an amendment ...
and that will be the
meeting with the D. R. A.
land use committee
so that number 3
sorry
to confirm that a plazas the most desired amenity amenity
for
the neighborhood
okay any discussion
and just
just a quick leave on that is that ... if
the land use committee feel that they're excited about this
and then I can support this from from what I
read in their letter ...
that they are looking for more they have no parks
no playgrounds dog runs ... and so those are the
things that they mentioned that that they would so if
anything could be achieved I'd like to know
any further discussion councillor Loveday
yeah on this
was the discussion
with the applicant about about this plaza being
park instead of a plaza
I am through the mayor of the the policy direction
... just a few lights that ... an open plaza
she private provided in this location so urban plazas but
I. nature ... ... do tend to have more hot
scape and green space ... say the policy doesn't really
direct ... stuff one way or another ... into in
terms of leaning towards more green space ... expenses question
was there any discussion regarding the
ownership of the space ... like by the city rather
than the applicant has a
like as a park public space
there it is yeah
I'm
through the mayor that there wasn't actually discussion but in
the past there's a continuous parkades underneath the ... plaza
area which we often end up there's a liability in
the construction and maintenance and I'm trying of membranes becomes
quite a challenge
right
I think I do support this amendment okay thank you
... I don't support this amendment ... because I'm hoping
the whole referral motion will fail ... in which case
I have prepared an amendment to the main motion ...
will because I agree with the comments that have been
made about it needing to be more park like and
I also agree with cancer Loveday's comments that we need
to know now ... more what it will look like
in and holding that so if if this fails on
the referral motion fails I would make an amendment to
the main motion that's request of the public plaza be
more park like and the DP for the plaza be
required ... now with an expiration date time to the
proposed build out of phase two because it mitigates the
risk of the two year DP I and it gives
us control and it makes it more park like but
I don't support of this motion on the amendment rather
counter and ... go ahead just have a quick question
if this motion passes doesn't mean that ... that's the
end of this discussion
yes if the referral motion passes but right now we're
only on the amendment so you have to if the
referral motion passes it just gets referred back to staff
for right now will be time to comment on that
right now is great yeah thank you you betcha I'll
come to you for sure I anyone else on the
amendment ... councillor young
well ... supported because it will ... bring the whole
issue of the plaza back to the T. R. A.
for discussion a new just maybe should remind my colleagues
the space we're talking about is is
about like bastion square ... down below ... Langley down
to the wharf
there is an and the the park area would be
I think probably smaller than the area with the tree
in the in centennial square so ... hi I don't
know the extent to which it could actually be enlarged
certainly the T. R. A. was very concerned that it
would be encroached upon by commercial activity ...
the two cafeterias and retail and so forth but ...
and of course it's sitting above the parkades so there's
a limit out bigotry you can plant I guess
... and also that would make it pretty complicated for
the city the onus is our staff told us
... but eight Hicks I I I think given the
size of the place we are talking about a pretty
... constrained area and I think the DRA desire for
parks and dog runs ... would have to be satisfied
using
other other sites any other comments on the amendment
all those in favor of the amendment any opposed none
opposed okay councillor Joe you still have the floor yeah
... thank you and I did want to add to
them and ... but I just wanna mention accounts are
young and if the plazas what time works best them
will know from DRA but I've seen a small dog
runs and Manhattan and I've seen other uses that place
structures and smaller spaces so I think ... creativity could
be achieved through here ... so I'm my next amendment
and I'm looks like we're both if if it a
second I'd like to I'd be happy to speak a
little bit more but I would that theme ... more
affordable units being considered
moved and seconded this is the second time yeah I
I understand councillor young saying ... by having the more
for ability may mean that they are them anymore high
... they need ... something but I also have seen
... the creativity in months the development community where there's
some partnerships with the ... island health or BC housing
or a nonprofit and so I believe that it can
be done or at least discussions can be held up
to see if the more affordability ... can be cheap
... as the DR is letters sent um well basically
we're getting one point five percent ... affordable housing so
twenty three affordable housing out of fifteen hundred and as
councillor Loveday ... I think was because I loved their
councillor I said ... we're losing fifteen affordable units so
basically we're getting and that gain of eight of for
the so that that concerns me soon any opportunity to
get a few more affordable units some partnerships ... is
something that I would like to see and I know
... ... comes mayor helps is so
... she will be able to support the whole thing
because of the referral ... but I I would not
be able to support it going to public hearing ...
at all at this point ... without well then I
do believe more work needs to be done
thank you to seconder want to make any comments
okay I'll make a comment on this one ... hi
we can we cannot ask for a fictional project to
be built so we're we're asking for less height and
density and more affordability we heard from the land left
with the reason that they need the point five percent
... ... ... increase in density point five FSR above
the OCP is because of the affordable units now I
do think that we should have a motion that it
goes forward to public hearing subject to more affordable units
that means less profit for the developer that's okay ...
but but that this doesn't actually make sense from an
economic point of view we heard that without that ...
point five list above the OCP which we said we're
open to OCP amendments that offer more than just ...
what the OCP is supposed to and so we can
push them a bit more on that but we can't
push them for more affordable units if we're taking away
the height and density economically it doesn't make sense and
it and it goes against the spirit of the kinds
of policies that we've been saying that were supportive of
so again I I don't support this because I would
prefer we had subject more affordable units to the main
motion not to this referral motion it's because this can't
yeah councillor Loveday
yeah I think I think it is
reasonable to request more affordable units on this proposal it
is a these are
they will be the tallest buildings in the city it
is a great increase in density over ... over the
OCP and ... and height and ... I think we
want a development of this size that has a good
news that ... if approved would contribute a massive amount
of new housing ... which is a good thing in
my opinion ... but we want that housing to reflect
our community and that means it needs to be diverse
in its unit mix and diverse in the incomes of
people who will be able to afford it in if
we're looking at
units that are all except for a
you know what is essentially a handful ... in the
current proposal ... over to you know if a one
bedroom is going to be twenty three hundred dollars or
something for rent like if you if that's a third
of your income you need to be making sixty six
hundred dollars a month and and that that isn't in
line with the needs of our community so ... I
think we do need to make sure that this is
in line with the needs of our community and that
means diversity across the unit sizes and the cost just
for clarity is ... accounts are also come to a
moment can you scroll up so we can see the
whole thing because I just wanna I don't disagree with
anything that councillor Loveday just said at all but but
this it's the motion to refer is that the application
be referred to staff to work with the applicant rivers
revise the application have greater consistency with the OCP particularly
as it pertains the height of towers and density so
we're saying be consistent with the OCP and provide more
affordability and unit next on on something where is our
policy says he were looking to ... we're we're open
to things above the OCP if they provide extremities so
I agree with counselor Loveday but this this motion as
were amending the referral motion doesn't in my opinion can't
actually achieve what we're asking for but that will be
the will of the table ... counts are also on
the amendment
well I was gonna say pretty much the same thing
... I do support the amendment of course but I
think all these amendments are in the wrong place I
don't support the referral and ... I would be happy
to actually have each of these amendments attached to the
original motion as subsequent conditions indeed many letters that are
already there ... so I'm going to support the amendment
because I think the amendment is sound in its substance
but I don't think any of these amendments are appropriate
in a referral motion which contains them and in fact
constricts them in a way which makes it virtually impossible
to accomplish so what I'm going to support the amendment
because substantially sound but I'm certainly not gonna refer over
support the motion to refer and I hope that's defeated
that we can then have an opportunity to add motions
or amendments like these that to the other original motion
thank you I councillor Dubow on the amendment ... thanks
mayor helps I I do support the amendment on
oval of policies in place why not and require and
for a full house in and but
no one stops the private developers to come forward ...
and and do the number is ... and tried to
and provide affordable housing because the housing needs in Victoria
and the target these two thousand one hundred and affordable
and below market rentals and target and that is not
even not knowing
after two thousand sixteen what is the need because it
the last housing need is the sense is that we
look towards two thousand sixteen and call the ninety nine
and everything else has increase the the need for more
affordable and low market rates ... and this does not
to fit the our target ... our ... and what
we want to I. T. for the community because this
is a massive project ... and what we can do
is to demand more for for the public although I
would policies doesn't give us those tools but said in
the in the OCP eight speak social cohesion on other
things at least ... we cooked and
precisely a
upside of the land use we could we could it
is fair enough to demand more in such a massive
project so I do support the amendment I know also
I support the amendment to the federal
the motion to refer okay thank you any further discussion
on the amendment
yes councillor isn't
I support the amendment
since the debate is expanding a bit to the main
motion I think I do think this is the appropriate
place to put the direction I think this because of
how this application over reaches I think it requires substantially
more than superficial changes and moving it along to a
public hearing is it doesn't I think allow sufficient space
for deliberation and revisions to occur so I think this
actually does have to go back to staff rather than
forwards to a public hearing
thank you on the amendment any further discussion okay all
those in favor of the amendment any opposed okay I'm
opposed councillor young as opposed councillor Joe I believe you
have one more and Isabel could you mind just for
making a double it's not even no I I think
of my other ones some
I
and changes the other one was to consider a condominium
but
I think I'll leave that one out and maybe the
applicants as I'm sure is listening and may hear that
but I don't think it needs to be part of
the motion and the other one was regarding the ...
the the height of the
the towers in which case it's already in there but
I will put my hand up for the main motion
okay thank you ...
well the
this is the main motion this is the motion to
refer well that's the main motion has been superseded by
the motion to refer okay so I don't have any
other amendments okay ... but I will support this ...
the customer I said said ... to achieve greater consistency
so doesn't say ... data has to be right with
the OCP and up and the heightened density but get
closer to the consistency so perhaps something can be done
as you I think you mentioned that perhaps ... they
will achieve less ... ... proceeds serve by making some
of these changes ... but I would rather be go
back to staff go back to the applicant come back
to council to ... to review the changes if there
is any ... because I still think it's too early
to go to public hearing okay thank you I've got
myself next and then councillor Andrew on the motion to
refer ... I I I don't support this as is
probably evident by my comments on the amendment ... as
we've understood through the process ... if this motion to
refer fails we can amend the main motion to add
these things to it and anything else we want ...
the whole process will move forward in terms of legal
agreements and all of that is a whole alphabet of
conditions ... and it will already come back to committee
of the whole ... as part of the OCP referral
so I just if if we are serious about housing
and if we're serious about sustainability and climate change ...
D. as counsel does that I I I kind of
my eyes kind of popped out when she said this
is already can take one or two years to get
the public hearing I hope it's not that long with
all these conditions but ... but say it does go
forward are sorry it does go back the referral motion
passes ... that that prolongs the process and so that
by the time that this is built ... even the
market rents are going to be more than they would
be if it could if it goes forward today so
every every time we send something back ... by the
time that first person moves in
the rents just by by nature ... of the rising
rents will will be higher ... not to mention the
fact that there will just be less housing in a
much needed to ... when we're in a in a
the housing crisis so I I don't support the referral
motion and I just ... I I guess I've I've
followed this application pretty closely as I know we all
have and I know that staff really struggled with ...
the
the with the way that this building is gonna look
and feel to human but being walking down the street
and you know they could the the referral motion will
essentially ... end up with probably ... Vaultier podiums and
shorter towers like it was that was a good question
accounts rise asal sure we can chop three point five
stories off every ... tower but that will mean a
less human scale experience a less favorable pedestrian experience the
the public realm will be more deeply impacted if we
if we do that and then with the proposal going
for it so I don't support the referral motion but
I do support these conditions being attached to the main
motion ... should the referral motion fail accounts are Andrew
on the motion to refer and then councillor Potts on
the on the motion to refer hi
fundamentally a I disagree with the I think it came
too early because ... I for one didn't get to
answer my questions and ... I have a number of
issues in the report that I wanted to go through
... my only you can ask those now I think
that if if that will help you decide whether or
not you can vote on the motion to refer that's
totally fair game so well I mean from the minute
I disagree with this ... but I'm now gonna have
to go through the ...
I guess the ... the theater of ... ask my
questions and I'll do that now I just think that
we we we should ... ... ... defeat the defeat
it or send it back or whatever but I think
we could wait on that okay I'm gonna ask my
questions now ... first question for you is ... staff
is on ... and I'm just gonna ask some questions
of ordinance that but I'm only doing that so the
public can understand where I'm going hopefully my okay
okay ... one is some the total number of units
on this development will be watched at the end of
the day doing project
the process ... five hundred ten units for this phase
... fifteen hundred ... in total ... say fifteen hundred
for the second phase I'll just confirm that number ...
but I believe it's fifteen hundred for the second and
third phases okay and what do we expect to be
the total population living in these ... Hey
I'm assuming we least one but ... is there a
rate that we that we know is coming
we would it would it would really depend on whether
it's a single
person nor a couple a couple people so probably four
thousand to five thousand people and we are and ...
we based on the mix of I've seen that we
would see in a significant number of families there sent
right
maybe half
it's hard to say whether it be Hoff of the
total number but the ... page seven of twenty three
and the reason report lists the breakdown of the
... the larger unit is ... for phase one ...
safe there's a percentage amount table as well and just
a car from my other point is fifteen hundred units
total size thousand to a thousand forty five for the
later phases five and ten for the first face to
see in amenity or ... the contribution of them ...
mmhm
child care
whom do you think that the do we know what
size the child care ... the size of the childcare
spaces gonna be do we know how many
basements would be available in the childcare no do you
think it be it it will meet the ... the
amount of population that's going to be placed in that
area if this proceeds
yes the daycare ... spaces an interesting one ... as
part it is proposed as part of the first phase
... what is shown on the development plans is a
space around four hundred eighty square meters ... which the
applicant has stated will potentially serve up to
I think it is ... the any twentieth like twenty
twenty oh sorry children ... however the not willing to
commit to that size ... requirement as possible legal agreements
the most of their willing to commit to an illegal
agreement would be a day caspase around a hundred eighty
five square meters mmhm
... so I can make questions comments at the same
time right absolutely okay
that concerns me because
a project of this magnitude I think they they should
spend more time thinking about it and ... I I
I don't think that is satisfactory so the minimum is
ten ten placements for for children right
3 percent
it is it is hard to sell side question because
we we don't actually have ... ... floor space for
that lower amounts of that level that committee okay
all right have we
dealt with ... I'm I'm concerned about the entire project
moving forward at once and that like my colleague so
I've got some really concerns about the the delay between
phase one and phase two I think that that is
... a lot can change ... in that amount of
time and ... ... a ... to be honest with
you don't think I'd be wanting to make commitments today
about the future project that some ... five years down
the road ... within James Bay right now this project
that received a ... development permit ... ten years ago
and ... now is ... just about to get built
I believe and ... there's a lot of concerns about
the change in time ... that's gone from the time
the development permit has given that to today I think
we we know what that practice so ... leaving it
there that that is there I think there's a lot
of on certainty in the project ... now gonna go
through ... mind my notes with within the project in
my colleagues please bear with me because I've I've made
significant notes and and ...
I've been been through this a document and several times
and accounts are as ... councillor Andrew just to guide
your clients so it sounds like you're leaning towards supporting
the motion to refer so maybe your your comments no
no I'm not okay okay it's the only if I
ate
if I don't support it and it goes forward the
motion succeeds the none of my comments at this point
I disability so that is what I'm trying to do
yeah go ahead and I'm just trying to Santa I'd
rather not okay ... under accessibility on page nine of
the staff report you mentioned no accessibility improvements are proposed
beyond what is required through the BC ... building code
to propose public plans will provide and universally accessible route
from gates to view street my question really kind of
came up this morning when we were talking about accessibility
and we know that from a housing report that we
are deficient in the number at actually accessible units that
we have within with rental ... buildings around them the
city ... I understand other municipalities have guidelines when someone
is building rental building to place accessible units with in
the billing ... did we consider placing ... asking for
the applicant to create term accessible suites in in this
development
through the merits this is not an area that the
city has a policy it is something that we do
highlight for applicants Butta that's about as far as we
can take it so I don't think that that is
very ... equitable and so ... ... I would like
to see I'm not gonna do it is a motion
to to the ... developer I'm sure is that listing
I would like to see ... the standard should be
five percent accessible sweet to cross the ... the board
so I would like to see accessible suites there and
that doesn't mean just putting in ... ... disabled ...
buttons and on elevators and so honest insuring that the
actual units are ... built in flexibility when we go
to page seventeen of your report talking about wind ...
you you mentioned you're going to get another wind ...
steady there and I just wanted to ask about the
... the situation in the in the public space that
they are going we've been discussing do we do we
know what that the wind level in that area would
be
yes to the mat ... I couldn't tell you exactly
the correct terminology they they cut they have very unusual
classifications ... in that hierarchy of what's acceptable what's not
acceptable ... but I can tell you that the plaza
didn't raise any ... concerns or red flags through that
... through the wind study as being an area of
concern there is a concern where that primarily related to
the corner of Quadra and the streets ... on the
ground floor and then the terraces the towers but nothing
within the plaza okay and then when we look in
the in the surrounding areas tell us what we have
notably beauty hours just across from view street that one
not have been any any impact upon the on on
the wind in that area and I'm only and again
as a lay person and this is why I'm asking
this question ... you I've I've been in several buildings
... ... on the on the street in several building
expression Toronto Frances round comments quote when they have a
number of towns and the more they built towers the
wind get that area became I'm just
putting that out there to ... do we have any
in information on is it just the towns that that
they just study that the site what did they look
at how that would relate to some of the buildings
in the area and if if it would increase the
the wind flow through the through that area
the wind city primarily related to the septic sites in
the streets that join the subject science
it was sitting on the desert
... than an inline I think that I think they
need to ... show ... wind the the effect of
the wind ... it with in relation to other of
the buildings ...
you talked about that today
talked with
could you talk a bit about on page
any final page that page twenty two about encroachment agreements
and ... although I understand it for the for the
public could you please explain what this will mean to
the area once we start to build ... once they
start to build at this project was full
... yes saving Christian agreement said this is a typical
requirement ... whether it's gonna be I'm complaining I'm on
the public property ... so this is essentially just a
authorization for council to do that ... sometimes it's not
necessary ... but our stuff engineering have deemed in this
case it will be
okay thank you
just for a bit of further clarification anchor pending is
just basically a rod that goes through to the sidewalks
of the at the shore and stays in place there's
nothing visible or impacting the public over the long term
from the trees that are going to be pulled out
... and will be replaced will they be replaced with
some mature trees or when they go to them
due to be placed requirements on that
through the mayor press second answer that one so ...
art the trees will be replaced the species ... will
be determined ... further down the line ... in that
more detailed design process ... but they will be smaller
trees that will be planted as is typical with them
new plantings and those will be put in soil volumes
... that will allow for their for them to reach
maturity and be healthy thank you we talk about parking
variances being requested right now ... could you details as
far as please
a yes of course ... say there is parking variance
in this is specific to the first phase of development
... the
feathers a shortfall of forty eight residential schools an official
for the forty Stolz fact mentioned is to set a
taste awesome title for the first phase
and that's a combination of ... sorry that's a combination
of what we taste retail end and ... president trump's
address correct okay how many stones are currently in the
Harris green area
we don't have that information unfortunately you did note in
the report I believe them that you do you do
with knowledge that parking is going to be a challenge
in the in the area once this ... if this
moves forward as as presented correct
there is a statement that there is ... potentially anticipated
... she will there isn't a show full and leave
there may be some impacts on the surrounding streets ...
however ... stuff will save you the application excuse me
... in relation to the fact that ... this is
... hi screen is a neighborhood is in the open
coal ... there's extensive bike parking being provided there is
a ... bike too late to a protected bike lane
that some of the proposed along H. street ... that
the subject property is located within walking distance to many
amenities in the downtown core ... so these factors do
play into consideration of the stuff supports but if the
variance
hi this question is Mr source Cameron
Mr soar ski
are your samples good afternoon Sir can I ask you
... S. we we we can consider land left in
a application because it's here can we consider ... the
impact of ... the two tax lift on any application
that comes before us
council can consider economic impacts of the
opposed rezoning ... if the question relates to a potential
tax revenues that the city would receive that some pretty
about consideration okay but ... Mrs Ross he can we
consider that we are probably gonna put five thousand people
in a in a and block and a half in
the impact that those five thousand people could have on
um services and ... ... that the city would have
to provide to ... to accommodate and manage ... ...
that that amount of people
absolutely that say
very much that at the heart of the considerations I
think the reason
but ... the only way I could determine if not
just give an example ... if I'm going to put
to a thousand people in an hour and a one
block radius ... I'm assuming that that is going to
place ... ... more money ... for us to do
with the sewage garbage pickup or ... ... policing bylaw
something all those services that we have within the city
... so the only way I could that I can
consider ... as an individual it it me hypothetically is
to ... see want to ... ... try to determine
what the impact would be on our city budget in
it within any given year and what the potential lift
to our at revenue would be at two two ...
... ... development
Mr source here Sir was there was there yeah that
was a kind of a statement question sorry about that
yeah ... so how how can how can we as
a council to determine ... the ... the economic impact
of ... ... development and this is a sizeable development
if if we don't know ... you know ... how
much this is gonna putting this development to five thousand
people in two one half block radius what impact that
is going to have on our annual budget
well hi
there is no question that that any new development has
impacts on city services and that is definitely a power
consideration in terms of council's consideration of whether it's appropriate
to place ... the the density of residential uses or
or any other uses depending what we're talking about in
in a particular location ...
but
if I may have misunderstood the earlier question but if
the question is can we consider can council consider ...
all it revenues that you will receive from from the
... development once it's complete it ... then I would
say that that's not
it does not sent that is somewhat problematic consideration on
land use matter
impacts on the community from ... they hired ... or
or or influx of new residents is about consideration ...
I'm not sure
also how factually disk and be considered in a sense
of of ... the day ability to to estimate what
the revenue impacts would better or better results would be
of this development mmhm thank you it that to
that that is a help ... so I for the
public I do just want to make a brief statement
about this that ... tomorrow morning they'll be a headline
in the paper that this is that either we approved
you know a hundred story building ... going forward or
we didn't and that's gonna that's gonna be the bottom
line everyone at this table has read ... reams of
reports and and where where ... relying on the advice
and expertise of our staff and that's really important and
it's very difficult to to make these decisions so I
probably gonna make this statement now I'm about to the
... where I'm going I'm not going to support the
motion to refer I think it's much ... I think
it's messy ... and ... it doesn't give for the
direction to the applicant and I think to do fully
what we want and we are trying to make decisions
as the mayor has said that it can impact the
viability of the project ... but I think we should
be considering the impact of the the density from the
point of view number of people going in that what
I supported thirty two ... floor tower
... if it was done appropriately and effectively and we
can mitigate the ... community impacts of it I would
say yes I'm not convinced of that when I hear
that we haven't really thought things out to such as
... the ... the number of child care spaces than
being brought in as it only gonna complicate ... that
situation right now ... hi ... I think it will
I I think there are many uncertainties with this project
that I would have preferred the ... applicant to have
addressed before he came before us because these are many
of the questions that we getting through email and phone
calls and ... so for that reason a ... I'm
not going to support this motion
but I'm hoping that we'll get to them ... defeated
so that we can then try to ... meet some
of the challenges that are omitted from the main motion
thank you
okay thank you ... and ms lane has an update
or new information or different information on the child care
on ms lane go ahead yes thank you option she
helps and we did it we did confirm with them
... the applicant and the the number for this proposed
the DP four hundred I try square meters can accommodate
up to around seventy seventy children however the applicant is
not willing to commit to this number because I don't
have an operation in place I'm sorry ... that number
could range ... yeah between ... they said that the
floor space could be anywhere from four hundred upwards side
is it could be were it between thirty to thirty
to seventy is really the range that we've been given
yeah and my response and that is ... they're asking
us to make a significant decision about adding a significant
number of people into the downtown core and we we
encouraging families and if we what's the point in bringing
families into the downtown core and in this project if
there then can I have a hell of a time
trying to find childcare spaces that just might take that
just might take a
thank you very much ... I have councillor Dubow on
the motion to refer and then we do have other
items a counterpart to come to you and ... I
think at a certain point will I have adequately debated
this and then we can ... either pass it or
not and just there are still other items today and
tonight so councillor Dubow councillor Potts councillor Thornton Joe on
the motion to refer as it's been amended here sixpence
... I'm I'm just wondering I have a general
questions
how many errors do the staff no home energy and
market rate rentals are in construction as of today
under construction home money do we know the numbers
I'm sorry we don't have that readily available
okay ... is it possible to have such information for
the future
we can look into it and yes hopefully that doesn't
exist okay thank you ... what I know that some
clover has a different chapter the and then the rest
of the municipalities where
I wonder what tools or mechanisms do we have to
into suffice rent control tied to the unit
I'm I'm sorry what mechanisms are there's not yeah what
tools and mechanisms do we have or is there any
any and power is that we house or mechanisms to
in to see the end Sentifi size rent control tied
to the unit I know that that is a provincial
but I'm wondering if we have any mechanism at a
local level and at sore teeth probably the best bet
would be in a housing agreement to secure ... a
certain degree of affordability
and with that the rent control tied to the unit
I suppose it could be it's not something I'm just
looking to ms who says she has further
information
we would have to look into that if it's not
something we have done in the past okay
and with that take a lot of work to have
that information
ms
through the mayor ... we can certainly look into it
... it's not something that we've done in the past
and ... I do believe there was a debate about
this and council's once before and I'm not sure if
... misters or ski has any additional information on this
he has his hand up sorry Mr source can Mr
hand go ahead
thank you mayor helps I'm not entirely clear on on
what is meant by rent control but as a general
proposition ... local governments ... under the local government act
has the ability to provide in terms of incentive provide
a higher density ... in return for certain amenities such
as affordable affordable housing so as was mentioned by ...
is mired D. housing agreement would usually be the mechanism
by which ... the commitments would be secured but the
incentive forty ... developer property owner to enter into a
housing agreement would be linking it to a bonus ...
density out so that they are putting more density than
would otherwise be allowed in return for a housing agreement
which specifies the level of call for affordability ... forty
rental units ... which could regulate ... the allow increases
in rents and that's what I saw it on what
is in front of us already to have a density
but less affordability and and I'm I'm careers hi I
have read and I understood that in terms of
and the
the ... the land on the construction and and on
on the cost for the builder and all that and
the taxes seems to that's what I understood from the
developer and justifying why they don't have affordable housing which
I
I'm not economists but I would like to deferred that
at the moment could provide more affordable and I and
and walk out their numbers because they already asking more
and from the city then they have to give more
and my second question ease and I'm curious if this
is again a general question have we done scanned in
and and have a house in inventory of home air
rental house for affordable housing stock do we have any
event in house inventory
but we have what we have the housing needs assessment
after last council meeting I ask ms Hudson to email
it to all of council and she did yeah yes
I am aware of the housing needs and and in
my earlier points I also raises that there I believe
the lower medium and low income is two thousand something
at target but my question is more do we know
... and home in a rental affordable this talk existing
as of now in the city of Victoria do we
have in Renteria I'm not asking didn't need to add
the need housing targets rather than the existing print top
photos from the stock I hope my question is sure
I believe that number is in the housing needs assessment
as this it shows what we have and then it
shows what we need I can't tell you the page
number but ms Meyer maybe you can remind us I'm
sorry I don't know his number but we are fairly
certain that does exist in that it's in that document
on an
the and let's say that I I don't even remember
the numbers and do we know and or captured because
now we have the number of rental affordable to stalk
in in this city and in the community
hi we captured and recorded a monitor the Homan a
numbers of its full time renters has been displaced
for the last 2 years
I'm so I'm so you're asking how we've been monitoring
how many renters have been displaced correct over the last
few years I'm wondering I think ms win hasn't information
thank
thank you helps ... we do have ... I'll staff
and housing who kind of sin feeding this information through
us they did say that this information will be coming
out in the housing annual G. and a few months
and just as your previous question in relation to the
... number of market rental units ... we is is
difficult to track ... units are under construction ... but
we do have the data from twenty nineteen ... that
hundred eighty three purpose built market rental units are built
in twenty nineteen I didn't think we have a number
of twenty twenty as yet yeah it would be nice
to have twenty twenty on or so what is under
construction in twenty twenty one because that will give us
a and going back to what mayor helps was saying
to look at the heart of housing needs and on
on the numbers compared what is is asking as a
target in market rate and what is our target low
and medium II and below market rate and see where
as we approve more projects where out of folks would
be and what is the need and do I understand
correctly that they would be reports telling us as a
consul how many people has been displaced and and and
full time renters that has been displaced that that would
be coming on will have the exact number is that
what I'm hearing
the cost of it the response my housing stuff is
that but the exact number will be how to confirm
but it will be addressed ... as a topic in
the in the annual movie okay I think that that
is good news too it's not good news to hear
people are displaced but it's nice to have the numbers
then we could say C. D. if the damage at
this point so I I I do support this because
it will go and indeed in the report it says
that the fifteen and units that would be displaced and
that would be lost would be will have is that
right to review first ride review so but it it
takes five years minimum to construct so by that time
you might even leave the city rather than even come
back to a new build in ... and I didn't
only twenty three affordable units and and I'm Dan despite
displacing ... and I'm also fifteen units it doesn't add
up overload this massive change in our community so I
do support the motion to refer and I hope and
the private developer take CD's and and I and I
look at the numbers and and come forward and
is the and
come forward with and in terms of the visiting the
units of the bedrooms the Mexican units but also more
flexibility enough for a bit and affordability and my last
question the twenty three affordable units is there a day
is it lifetime of the building
this would be secured in perpetuity else that's what I
thought thank you very much thank you councillor Potts and
then councillor Thornton Joe on the motion to refer
I think it's gonna take a lot for the community
to get behind a development like this but I believe
there is an opportunity to advance several important schools identified
by the community ... from downtown green space to affordable
housing rental and urban density ... as a climate response
so I I think this development can give us a
lot and I think you can give more considering the
OCP amendment and ... so it's for that reason I'm
not able to support the referral motion but I really
strongly encourage counsellor first revision that we could ask for
a minimum of fifteen to print twenty percent of the
units affordable at a meeting at a medium a median
income ... split between the two phases for such a
sizeable development taking into consideration that's just asking for this
to be affordable to the average resident of Victoria we
would could consider retaining all of these units as rental
we can consider increasing ... an increase of two and
three bedroom units within this and then ... also clarity
for the plaza design and the clarity in the basement
of it and really considering how we can deliver that
green space for downtown and there should be no reason
of course for before this would come back to council
meeting for the tenants assistance policy to be fully complete
I think when we look at all of what we
could potentially and she but with this can we could
lean into what more is possible with this ... CPM
and meant to them I think that's the kind of
vision and the kind of bold action we should be
taking around housing because this is this is a substantial
amount of housing that we do definitely need and I
think a given ... what's before us here today and
... what's possible I would
for for for us to lean into the potential of
the OCP amendment and and looking at that affordability that
green space ... and that and look what we can
do in it it towards achieving ... climate action okay
thank you councillor Thornton Joe
so thank you I just wanna make sure maybe I'm
cleared so far this referral if this passes that means
that this will go back to staff to work with
the applicant and then we'll come back to committee of
the whole with these ... with comments or changes or
non changes of for this is that correct and if
this is defeated them the original motion that the mayor
... put on ... ... earlier today ... we'll be
on the table and the mayor will make some amendments
as as she mentioned ... would be added because she
supported many of the members here and if that is
supported then it will go to public hearing with these
recommend ... no ... go back to the OCP will
come back here but does the OCP when it comes
back here does it do the same thing as referral
what's the difference between it being referred to these and
it being approved to go to public hearing with it
coming back from the old sepia minutes
what yeah what is to happen I hope I answered
your question correctly and get me on the right track
if I don't
that there's a difference in how we recommend you proceed
based on the first part of the referral motion that
if it it will be very difficult for council to
do the referral on the OCP if you have an
expectation that the height in the density is lower because
we don't want to refer something out for the OCP
which is an accurate so if the intent is to
move the recommendation the staff recommendation and you add those
three bullets or however many bullets
into the mix then ... those things will be worked
on they talked about with the applicant the overall form
of the development with the density in the hate would
be referred out as well as any further information we
can provide all this information would come back to committee
of the whole along with the comments from the official
community plan referral and at that point council could decide
if it's ready to proceed to first and second reading
or whether there's further amendments that are needed and just
sorry go ahead which is but but if you throw
into the mix to the part about changing the density
or the height then it would be better to get
those changes before you referred out for an OCP amendment
okay okay so my understanding is if
this does not so this one will be able to
work on the OCP heightened density
but if this one is defeated and that's just the
mayor's with the amendments
it will not that's correct that's a significant difference you've
got it head bang on so this referral is to
reduce the height and density the main motion is to
keep the height and density plus all these other things
so if you want the heightened density reduced support the
referral if you're okay don't and then act if okay
so then at the moment the motion of the mayor
without the OCP if it is supported then I will
go to public hearing and if it's
when it comes back the OCP but I am just
okay just I just wanna I wanna make sure is
that we're very clear that what we're gonna get by
this motion so to respond I will be supporting this
because by did for me to decline this may mean
that it will move at least a bit forward maybe
not to public hearing better spent Ford without ... addressing
the OCP concerns of
about the height and the density which I feel is
also important along with the other three and I guess
some of for some of my colleagues who feel that
the the height to this is not ...
of concern I do feel that ... what you know
what I can my council I I had trouble with
some of the hi so we're being proposed and I
did support some but some of them ... because ...
because some of the things that we gained I see
some gains on this one but this is significantly higher
and
as some people have ... roof ... sort of said
this is something more of a Vancouver or or ...
Toronto's sort of heights and as someone whose ... born
and raised in Victoria and ... just I just see
that it these high start to lose the character of
what ... ... many of us ... see is important
for Victoria so I think we can still get some
of the rental and the affordability but not at the
cost of the character of our city thank you accounts
are also on the motion to refer it's just a
question to staff ... I think it's relevant to the
motion to refer ...
if this motion is defeated and we return to consideration
of the former motion am I correct in believing that
before a of public hearing would be scheduled all of
the conditions would have to be met
yes
do you have any sense of how long it might
take given how many there are
it will take a substantial amount of time it's hard
to give you an exact estimate because it it goes
two ways the applicant needs to make revisions and we
can't control that but even on our end turning around
all the reviews the legal requirements is going to take
some months right thank you
thank you I just like to make one more comment
on because Victoria Vancouver and Toronto keep being referenced ...
and I think it's really important just going back to
my earlier comments ... Colonna ... which is a city
kind of same same scale issues Victoria has recently approved
a forty two story building and that's not what we're
being asked to do and then I got a letter
in the mail of the good old fashioned mail from
my high school history teacher from London Ontario and he
wrote me sending you some memorabilia about Victoria and he
said you know London is is changing you you'd barely
recognize that there is a forty storey building and so
just you know and then those of London is on
Dhanteras very much like Victoria in terms of size and
scale and just going back to my earliest comments ...
if we are going to combat climate change to mitigate
climate change mid size cities like Victoria across this country
are going to need to accommodate more height and density
so people are living near where they work near where
the kids go to school so and it is is
that the Vancouver entrada kept getting reference so I just
wanted to to reference London and Colonna a London Ontario
Inc loon which are much more like Victoria than other
those other cities okay yes councillor Isitt
... I think there are ways to achieve additional density
that don't require that very drastic building height ... and
I think Victoria should pursue the path of ... more
mid rise ... densification rather than high rise ... I
think ...
... I think the presence of very tall buildings and
cities could more be an indication of ... the municipal
councils willingness to approve ... tall buildings and ... than
any other sort of factors and from time to time
we have seen very tall buildings in this community but
they're all also has been a tradition of more of
a mid price approach there's also been a huge amount
of construction downtown and yet we've seen the price of
housing going up rather than down so I think we
do have to challenge the myth of supply and I
I it doesn't appear that we're in the process of
building our way out of the housing crisis I think
we need other tools and we need binding housing agreements
to lock affordabilities into new units and we also need
increased public investment in ... D. commodified housing so ...
it was suggested by the mayor that if we were
to ... essentially lost three and a half stories off
the building that would automatically result in a a wider
building but that wasn't the nature of my question to
staff it was if council chose to hold the line
on the density as envisioned in the OCP in terms
of holding the density it five point five to one
... what would that do to the height ... and
we heard from staff that would remove the T. three
and a half for four stories off the building ...
that wouldn't results in widening the building the assumption was
that the existing kind of ... for plead with the
existing ... floor area of the ... the floors in
the tower ... what would that point five of density
mean for building height so one way to address the
very ... substantial overreach into height would be to hold
the line on the OCP density and at that that
wouldn't mean more the wider buildings that would have more
of an impact on the public realm so just to
go in and correct that in accuracy ... I think
I don't support opening the floodgates to very tall buildings
in the community I think there's a way to house
people through other approaches that have been proven in other
communities and so I think referral to staff is the
appropriate way to proceed ... rather than allowing this to
go to public hearing with nearly ... superficial changes
okay ... I'm gonna call the question on the motion
to refer all those in favor
those opposed myself councillor Loveday councillor Potts councillor Andrew councillor
alto so the motion to refer fails ... so why
don't I start since I was proposing ... some amendments
... I'd like what councillor Potts said should rather than
a general comment about affordability ... so let why don't
well do them one at a time just trees ...
that at least fifteen percent of the units over both
phases of the development achieve ... the median income of
affordability in the city's affordable housing plan
is there a seconder
seconded by councillor ... also ... kills about I know
you said between fifteen to twenty percent but I I
think we you know we we do need to push
here a little bit to adhere that ... I think
fifteen with at least fifteen percent is a good start
... and that could be in this phase or or
next phase so I'll go to councillor alto and I'll
come to you next councillor alto as a seconder
I think this is actually a good balance between ...
aspirational and achievable and I think it's quite reasonable to
expect that given the other ... any other conditions that
have been applied to this that this is still something
that could be achieved and to help the project received
so I'm happy to support this it may or may
not be achievable at least let's try and musical catches
a median not medium income accounts are Potts go ahead
would like to try an amendment to this ... that
instead of saying over both faces of the devil meant
to say with at least half in the first phase
of development yes it could just just before ask for
a seconder that meant ... half is five hundred to
the first half is five hundred units in the second
half is a thousand units sold one ... a third
a third okay
the overall this is two hundred and twenty five units
so that is a reasonable amount it just that there
would be the fear and uncertainty of not being able
to deliver the ... ... a number of them okay
is there a seconder
second by councillor Loveday okay so that at least fifty
percent of units with at least one third of the
first phase okay yet so all debate on with at
least one third in the first phase any debate on
that yes councillor alto ... just to clarifications so that
means
half of the 15 percent right
... through a Sir third of the third of the
fifteen percent right so so it would be ... okay
I just wanna make sure that I understand the the
math behind it so if they were arbitrarily a hundred
units we were talking about fifteen of them would be
affordable over all of it and at least five would
be in the first phase
that's all the math is right okay thanks ms Wayne
is staff is that clear to you I
it has to be clear to staff so let's actually
let's just let's let's so
the the to do math quickly so they're five hundred
this is called five hundred units in phase one if
at least fifteen percent of those
through I am Mike quick figures
of the fifteen percent would represent about two hundred and
thirty units so two hundred thirty divided by three thirds
would work out to seventy four percent or something like
that's what we need we need that okay any further
discussion on the bolded language yes councillor young
yeah I don't think is achievable okay thank you very
much ... on the bolded language any discussion
all those in favor any opposed councillor young as opposed
okay so now the amendment is that at least fifteen
percent of the units with at least one third of
the first phase of the development achieve the median income
of affordability in the housing cities at a housing affordability
strategy sure you should be strategy
not plan okay ... any further discussion on that amendment
up it may actually not be achievable but this is
a significant development and I want to see it move
forward and they're asking for above the OCP so we
have to try I feel like this is are trying
to make sure that we can achieve what needs to
be achieved for a resident so I councillor Potts and
then counselor young I just wanna add and your in
our conversations around inclusionary housing policy we kind of went
back and forth in a lot of ways to how
to achieve affordability and I asked a developers directly how
can we get more affordability and he said we need
more density and this is what we're doing here so
I think that I think that we should really lean
into this and tried
okay thank you councillor young
well we have we have a goal of the achieving
more units
but I think we have to be clear the affordability
is an amenity for the region and for the province
it's not an amenity for the neighbourhood ... the navy
the neighborhood has identified amenities that they'd like to see
a public open space green space playgrounds ... by
ask by by asking the the developers to put his
money into affordability we are reducing the options for him
to achieve some of the benefits ... for the neighborhood
in which this project is to be placed on a
just a comment I I fundamentally disagree with that ...
if there are median income units people who work at
London drugs or market on Yates can live right upstairs
from where they work and they're part of the neighborhood
too so it is of absolute benefit there may be
people living there now in units that they can't afford
his are paying too much they so at the it
depends on who you count as a neighborhood I guess
councillor Dubow
thanks mayor helps and I do agree your last comments
and remarks I've question so nothing
and guarantees that
the applicant who do this they could say I'm not
with this and
then with the application move forward
this is a condition
so if this condition can't be met staff will come
back and tell us that this was not achievable but
when I read I I don't see condition
because you're reading a long list of conditions at the
very top it says go to public hearing subject to
this whole alphabet of things are extending the alphabet that
that then that makes sense thank you as long as
this is a condition on it with a move forward
on this the applicant and when
guarantees said the fifteen percent of the units Dan I
do support the amendment okay thank you I any further
discussion on the amendment all those in favor any opposed
councillor young as opposed okay the second one there was
some very good wording about the mix of two and
three bedroom units submissive Alka hopefully you kept that ...
and we could go with that as a second proposed
amendment
okay moved by councillor Dubow seconded by councillor Loveday
okay our discussion
all those in favor of the amendment any opposed okay
none opposed that carries and then ... of the the
wording on it asking the D. R. A. if it
suits them to have a plaza if they say no
that doesn't really take us anywhere so I think we've
had comments at this table for years about the need
for more green space in in the downtown and an
error screen so ... I don't know the exact language
I'll start out enough people have better ideas ... but
that the public plaza
be more park like
or have more green space maybe be beaten mostly green
space
and that
a DP for the plaza
B. submitted now
with an expiration date timed with the proposed bills out
of phase two
is there a seconder
seconded yeah thanks councillor this might not be the exact
language but I'm trying to capture as we've heard more
about the need for parks downtown ... it might not
be a big space but it could be a very
beautiful usable functional green space with places for kids to
run around and dogs to run around ... I know
our policy envisions hardscape a councillor Loveday is right sometimes
you go to cities and your in between towers and
no one's there because it's not a nice place to
be ... and then the other the second part is
really and staff you might need to help us with
this language but we don't want them to have to
come back for a D. P. every two years we
know that this is going to take longer to build
out ... just because it takes a long time to
build concrete buildings if nothing else and so the the
spirit areas ... that staff and the applicant can work
together on a reasonable time for the DP to expire
that would kind of coincide with the build out of
phase two so is that ms ... Meyer is this
good enough language for DD for this
yes sorry just needed time to catch my brain up
yeah absolutely okay I'll I'll just just to motivate I
think it is important this is the biggest amenity that
this project is delivering ... and I think this council
whose approving hopefully you know if we get that far
... in this term I don't know how long it's
gonna take ... it we would be the ones that
would be responsible for securing this amenity not hoping that
in sometime in the future that it is is there
so that's the spirit of this I councillor Loveday as
a seconder and then I can look for others
yeah I think this ... wording gets at the heart
of it ...
I don't know
the word mostly in implies more than fifty percent obviously
which sounds reasonable but I I I think that would
be in the design so overall I do support this
I think it gets us closer to where we were
trying to go with the plaza and ... although the
D. R. E. isn't mentioned here I do think that
they should be involved in the conversation
thank you any other comments on this amendment
yes councillor Potts I just reboot
about the possibility of including the language of instead of
just kind of green space of park space ... if
that ... usable green space
part
just a signal that you know similar
what really the downtowns as far as parks so park
like park like park like park like green space also
cannot okay
is okay any discussion on the words park like
all those in favor any opposed okay any further discussion
on the amendment
all those in favor of the amendment are there any
opposed okay any further amendments to this motion councillor Andrew
... ... to this motion no ... notice or that
amendment has carried it to the ... yes could we
... ...
5 percent accessible
units
Ross
full
phases of the development phases of the development yeah and
then and then the the essence of that would be
it would also be ...
some of the ... the ... ... lesson market rental
rates as well do you want that in there as
well so that have you know five percent of the
... ... the ... the ...
the ... subsidize units all that low price units would
also be available
D. so did the ... if we say all phases
five three six sorry correct yeah five percent accessible units
across all phases of the development yeah may I may
I just offer caution them ... at the new buildings
through C. R. H. C. capital regional housing regional housing
Corp which are market based affordable units there ... the
C. M. H. C. as a condition of funding required
that a certain portion be accessible of the affordable units
and they're very difficult to rent there is very slow
uptake so maybe if we can just leave that that
to the discretion of staff in that rather than mandating
that okay yeah fine okay so five percent accessible units
across all phases of the development is there a seconder
for that
second by councillor Loveday okay great had to motivate I
just ... we we have ... ...
we we do not have a enough excess but units
right now I find that ... ... maybe it's price
point that is the issue but ... ... we we
need to get more accessible units and into the market
M. and ... if we can do that ... I
think that's a good thing for the people that to
have that mobility issues or need accessible units to live
because it would be nice to have them living in
... ... their own suites rather than have to live
in assisted living
thank you councillor Loveday
I think a cancer and your
hit the nail on the head with the being the
price point and if I think if it if these
are
... some of the more affordable units within here that
are at the meeting income then they would probably not
have any issue renting them up ... if there if
there are some of the more expensive units the name
they might ... so I I don't know mayor helps
what your comment was about discretion of staff and how
that applies to this but I think the the desire
here he's he's right ... and so I seconded it
but all we could hear clarifications well if you had
some time in my amendment I always have I mean
unless there's too many what yes go ahead up to
five percent of that and then that gives it discretion
the staff is sorted I I wasn't commenting I think
the five percent is fine ... what I was saying
is if we mandate that a certain percentage of the
affordable units also have to be accessible gotcha ... it
could prove difficult it may not but that's why I'm
saying let's leave it to staff and the applicant to
decide which portion of the
well I guess five percent of the if five percent
applies and it applies universal we are universally so five
percent of the affordable units would be accessible include and
five percent of all units is that is that the
intention and staff is that clear enough to you or
do you need different wording for that
if that's intentional it's
partial that would be fine okay that that is that's
good
great thank you okay everyone good with that amendment and
its meaning okay all those in favor of the amendment
any opposed okay none opposed that carries and I have
one moment please yes go ahead and I'm gonna need
to staff's assistance on this ... staff looking report you
indicated that you were looking for ... all the developer
would not ... at the greed to a certain size
or couldn't commit to a certain size of ...
a chunk cast spaces what ideally want put that B.
please
the developer had noted ... somewhere around four eighty but
it may be as low as was for forty so
perhaps erring on the side of the work that summer
come when would you like it to be a couple
for fifty okay let's do that then please second and
that's a seventy children take care of him four hundred
... that ... forty five square meters four hundred fifty
charge four hundred and fifty square meters
be designated for childcare second
at least at least thank you just when the amendment
that that at least the area thank you okay I
don't think that I think I've spoken about this before
thanks I any further discussion on that okay all those
in favor any opposed none opposed that carries ... anything
further
okay I guess I'll just a wrap up this very
long discussion to ... really thank council for working together
to making this application a stronger and better ... this
will be the first time that we test out our
we are welcome or were we welcome things that are
a bit above the OCP as long as they deliver
something to our community and we have admittedly push the
applicant here with more than what they came to the
table with ... but when we're building cities it has
to be done through negotiation and collaboration so we for
these conditions on the application ... there's a lot of
work between now and this coming back to the table
for our future consideration so I wanna thank staff in
advance for for the work because it's going to be
a lot ... and ... yeah we'll see what happens
when we get back yes councillor Loveday
yeah
hi I. D. so I I haven't haven't really commented
on the heights were were density to this to this
point ...
I see both both and all sides of the debate
and the discussion about what is the ... appropriate maximum
height for buildings within the city ... I
he you know ... ... sentimental portion of myself I
think I think this is too high and then another
part of me ... it knows that we are going
to need to continue to densify to meet both our
housing I am climate goals and ... another ... ...
aspect of me allows me to see that ... the
difference between ... a well designed ...
building that's ... thirty two stories is ... the camp
actually be less imposing than a poorly designed ... twenty
story building ... if if that building is ... why
didn't yeah champions ... shattering the street in ways that
it doesn't need to sell ... that is partly why
I I have ...
a lot of hesitation is that we're not getting on
the tallest buildings here we don't actually have
detailed designs and building permits in front of us that
I development permits that allows us to have the sure
the that this building ... one of which will be
the tallest building in the city if approved
is going to be reach excellence and I think when
we're looking at the tallest building in the city that's
what we need to be achieving is both ... excellence
in terms of urban design and architecture as well as
making sure that it's delivering on the many in multiple
goals of the OCP so when we're looking at a
project that is asking for a height and density well
beyond the OCP I think it's appropriate that we are
getting that in return ... if you through ... what
we've been calling amenities but I think that's actually ...
it's a
in some ways the wrong word ... I think what
we're looking for is a is a full project that
represents our community and what I see in front of
us now is a lot closer to that than what
I saw at the beginning of the day ... where
we have ... some more affordable units built in a
mix of two and three bedrooms ... more security around
the plaza accessible units ... and I think that that
to me
he's tipping me just in favor of voting in
voting in favor of this today I had been coming
in thinking that ... it
probably required a referral ... but with these amendments I
I do feel ... that I want to see what
comes back and I have a bit of a sense
of safety in that hearing that because of the OCP
referral this will come back to committee I am not
in a place where I could send this to public
hearing today even with these changes ... but overall ...
I I think that it's a stronger proposal now than
it was a few hours ago and ... I look
forward to seeing what comes back to this table fully
knowing that there are many in our community who think
who will ... expressed that these buildings are just to
talk and don't reflect a what they want to see
in their downtown okay I see councillor Thornton Joe councillor
Potts and councillor Andrew I also see that it's three
thirty so we need a motion to extend the meeting
I'm gonna look to the wisdom of the table for
what time that should be
four thirty okay so four thirty moved by councillor Andrew
is there a seconder seconded by councillor young all those
in favor any opposed none opposed that carries ... so
I forget the order that I saw the has I
think was Thornton Joe young Potts sorts are enjoying your
fought for the personal privilege yes when do you envision
having a recess
I had in the I thought this item was almost
done but isolated vision to recess right after it yeah
this looks like it's not only gives your five minute
recess no problem
I would like to call the meeting back to order
... just reminding us all we still have some open
business we still have our daytime council meeting and we
have a meeting this evening solstice will be mindful of
that as we proceed ... and
I believe councillor Thornton Joe was next when we sat
back down was that true I think it was councillor
Thornton Joe Andrew than Potts if that's the wrong order
I apologize with those are definitely the three speakers councillor
Thornton Joe so my understanding is another ma'am and can
be made is that correct that's correct
so I will add another amendment
and I haven't thought of the wording but ... my
colleague suggested that I at least try something so ...
that ...
that reduction
of height
be considered for towers C. D. and E.
okay is there a seconder
no seconder seconded by councillor young okay
I do think that heightens the concern I'm not as
concerned as concerned after twenty twenty one ...
... buildings at and I believe when we win the
staff said the to for it to come within the
density it would be three and a half stories on
each tower and I'd be fine of some of the
towers were to reduce but maybe the other towers were
to produce a little bit more so I think these
are all considerations with this without this in here I
believe that with all the members of the made ...
without any conversation about height and perhaps density of another
calling for like to do density but would mean that
the applicant must say I can do five percent assessable
I could do ... fifteen percent affordability but I am
now going to have to increase the height to thirty
five thirty seven stories so I think there needs to
be some understanding that that's not the direction I'm going
in it was just for clarity that's not the direction
that council has given its within the existing proposal that
these things be considered is unclear about this battle is
that clear to staff
do that and that is how I understood it
that it was within the existing proposal otherwise we're back
in the loop if you change the height or the
density you're back in the loop of what are we
referring out for the OCP consultation and should it come
back to council before you refer because you're referring a
specific proposal
what thanks for that but I know I'll leave this
just in there just because I
I feel I need to okay as a seconder counselor
young any comments
no
no okay any discussion councillor Isitt I support this amendment
... is exceeded previously during the debate I think ...
the buildings over reach in terms of height and they're
substantially inconsistent with the OCP by a factor of fifty
percent or more which is massive so I think reducing
the height ... is consistent with the city's policy and
it's an appropriate step to take
okay thank you I don't like to I don't I
hope this isn't I don't imagine this will pass given
the last debate but I do we just want to
really emphasize that a reduction in height ... will as
staff of informed us through the design phase if we
want to keep it rental and keep the same number
of units will resent real result in larger podiums and
shorter ... wider buildings which I don't think is is
positive so and I don't think staff to either which
is why we're kind of in the situation we are
with this design so ... I I think ... I
thought we did a really good job saying okay this
is our first test case for above the OCP and
what can be delivered I'm glad to councillor Thornton Joe
asked the question of clarity we don't mean that you
can go up to thirty five or forty stories we
mean within the existing proposal please deliver these things that
we've just spent time
... putting into our side of the negotiations so I
don't support this and I hope that we don't support
it so we can be consistent with what I thought
we had just achieved any further discussion councillor Loveday
yeah I think of sharing that the city's within the
current proposal and there's not an option for it to
come back higher ... I will be supporting the amendment
but I do appreciate that it was put on the
floor is it gave me that clarity ... and if
if the applicant can't or won't deliver the the subjects
... to the proposal that I hope they will ...
consider reduction I to me the is it's ... is
to be able to ...
faced with the community and say that this is what
we're getting out of this proposal that goes above and
beyond the OCP ... it really does need to have
that community benefit and offset the negative impacts so all
the
okay thank you I'm gonna call the question on the
amendment all those in favor of the amendment
councillor young concert Thornton Joe cancer as it all those
opposed ... the rest of us are opposed council do
I guess you didn't raise your hand so you're in
favor okay so the amendment fails our councillor Thornton Joe
anything further
okay
not on the amendment that says since the site did
not pass side will not be able to support of
the main motion thank you councillor Andrew
yes if you like to make another amendment that term
I think this is something we should be looking at
them and having a conversation with them Mike my colleagues
about noise in the city and as we start to
to build inspection we buildings large towers I'd like to
make sure that any that ... ... a noise mitigation
that be in place for all
rooftop equipment
is that getting a bit too technical I I again
I don't want us to get into the weeds well
I mean the thing is that ... so all we
do I guess that the question is do we want
to ... the building ... highrises we is ... allowed
to air conditioning or H. fax systems because the more
we do this in the city the more the noise
level is going to go on no we we absolutely
don't but just to staff is this is kind of
standard do we do need a motion is is this
something that just happens or just want some clarity from
staff is we could make motions about all manner of
things and but ms Meyer is a standard practice that
there's always mitigation there is there's standard practice at their
screening of mechanical equipment and that it's not unsightly I'm
not aware of any recent concerns related to noise related
to rooftop mechanical
there is one at the seniors home but I think
it has to do anyways okay that's fine so it
can be an amendment and ... is there a seconder
seconded by councillor Joe
yeah councillor Joe as a seconder then councillor Dubow on
the amendment yes I don't seconded term considering that there's
seems to be ... delays in getting our noise bylaw
updated so I think this is something that we're and
we're going to have to add more and more until
our noise bylaws updated
councillor Dubow on the amendment
thanks mayor helps I think and it seems facing out
of the developments it could mean that nonstop construction noise
dust destruction for the next five years minimum so with
this also address all no noise this doesn't address construction
noise there's nothing I can do about that yeah exactly
that's what I saw but it's a
you can of noise that's what I was thinking but
I the so I would ask the mover if they
consider all noises or they would on one twelve trace
the rooftop equipments
okay Sir I'm just gonna cut and we've got guys
we we can't start making motions about construction noise could
this one is very reasonable the construction noises construction noise
so
I guess in Kelso W. so I'm councillor Andrew a
he did ask you a question so and I think
my my ... my amendment is exactly as as intended
to be because we cannot will on construction noise otherwise
we'd never get anything built up but ... definitely let's
I'd like to leave that as thank you for the
suggestion thank you councillor Dubow anything further
nothing further but said and I I just wanted to
ask
I was seeking more clarification because the definitely it means
five years open honest of construction noise
thank you I appreciate that and I'm living next door
to nonstop construction noise now with Vic high under construction
and the delay on that one for another year so
I get it okay Allen this amendment any discussion all
those in favor any opposed none opposed that carries ...
councillor Potts over to you
I just set up a question to staff on the
tenant assistance policy it to a figure that by the
time this referral comes back at the tenant assistance a
completed tenant assistance policy would come back as well
yes to the mat ... I believe that that tenant
assistance plan is ninety nine percent complete to the just
waiting on a few outstanding pieces so it is likely
that by the time it comes back that would be
in place thank you that's all councillor Dubow
thanks mayor helps and I'm speaking on the main
motions that's right yeah
yeah Hey I think this a lot has been said
... and just continuing to that he we speaking of
a classmate and I think also we have to sink
tearing down buildings it's not also a climate and solution
and I have a question to staff would
with our new bylaw in place by the time construction
begins
the D. demand of fiction by low that we've passed
the reusable I'm a building material that only applies to
single family homes
thanks for reminding me
so I I think speaking of a climate justice aspect
of it tearing down a lot of buildings it's not
a is the climate and sustainable way and I think
that is not good for not only for the climate
but also displacement and gentrification of neighborhoods ... D. I
think you we are going over the OCP which I
agree with the council of days Cinemax but did there
has to be value added to that eve if there
is a bonus then they must be of value to
to the city and the value to the community and
and that's why I was asking the my previous question
in terms of it ends and into suffice in an
affordable housing so I look forward to see the fifteen
percent units and on how the that would come
but it
I think hi the ... I'm I'm happy to see
all these amendment to that has being done in terms
of is it looks better than from the beginning and
I know you really appreciate my colleagues ... working through
this interim is making sure that at least we have
and more of a sense of five foot ability right
now ... thing than the beginning and I look forward
to see more detail the fool of the tenants and
assistance location at the location plan ... and what that
include this in details but overall and I'm happy with
the amendment but I I do not support the project
going to public hearing until I see everything has been
done
thank you very much I'm gonna call the question all
those in favor of the motion
those opposed opposed our councillor Thornton Joe ... young eyes
it and double so that carries okay we have one
more item of business on committee agenda and that's a
motion from council is Andrew and Thornton-Joe's will look to
the mover and seconder and then to others for comment
or amendment
thank you very much ... second convolutional so cancer and
... is moving councillor Thornton-Joe's seconding yes okay ... I
just like to ... moved from that as soon as
possible ...
we open the following road in Beacon Hill park up
you to swing bridge way Hey would play from he
would have been you to bridge way that to to
work with the disability community to meet equitable access for
facilities and amenities in Beacon Hill park through in the
future road closures and three to ensure any future closures
and here to the British Columbia human rights legislation ...
I'd like to make just one very quick amendment in
item two there were icy bridge way can we please
put that from arbutus
... Bridgeway from hot cutis ... two Hey would embarrass
him saying that as Mr Douglas are in number two
yeah Bridgeway from arbutus to he would just so it's
clear that we're not going to open up the bridge
to traffic and buses just to let me that clear
that sorry ... in in sorry in one point two
there we go Bridgeway from
arbutus
can you just repeat that councillor ... ... from OP
utis ... way to hate which way okay
yeah okay thank you okay do we need to need
to
yeah no regrets ... I think this is a very
important ... ... there has been a lot of discussion
on this and this is not about cars this is
about people the people in the cars and giving them
access to facilities and amenities that are located within the
park and ... I try to create the ... the
motion so that really what I could do is that
staff could look to the future closes income at closures
or additional vegetation of the the area but just come
back with some with ... with any ... any adjustments
that to work with the applicant consultation disability community and
also do not to restrict took place in the into
Burton ... on them so it meets the MPC human
rights legislation ... that's my motivation I think we pretty
well know what where this comes from where it's going
thank you accounts are and we've got councillor Thornton Joe
kills resident myself you know just some quickly that ...
when Cole would hit
it was considered
so appropriate to give some social distancing and to close
some of these roads and
we did this in in a timely manner ... because
it's so cold it was upon us ... but in
reflection ... there were definitely some positive ...
... things that are cheap by the closures but there
was also some negative ... ... affects of that ...
made that ... where equity was concerned was was was
was lost and I and I think that ... we
could still make these considerations but I think the considerations
need to be done in a way that is so
that we work with does that we need to consult
to make sure that ...
the sensibility ... issues are addressed and so I think
this allows us to go back to be called it
and then have those discussions in a meaningful fashion and
then of course when we talk about accessibility into means
different things to different people and you know whether it
is a senior who who ... just enjoys ... you
know that the the drive thru and memories of the
past ... but I think it's really important that we
do this correctly and ... I have to read consultations
so I as I was able to support those some
motion and I look forward to ... what comes ...
forward from there
okay thank you very much accounts are as it and
then myself
... thinks ... is it possible to divide the motion
to one two and three always possible to divide okay
... I'm gonna propose an amendment to number two
and I may need staff's assistance
... just because I do I do have a different
device ... don't have an access to information that we
had last week ...
what's the language we've been using around minimal impacts on
the public's use of the park
does anyone
essentially what we're trying to balance in terms of balancing
accessibility ... with ... well then in different have a
minimal impact of motor vehicles on the park Sir Mr
source could you remember the language
I'm sorry their home site I do not so the
have any kind of language ready for for what councillor
... I just looking for but I'm I'm looking it
up right now okay yes so maybe all ... yes
essentially
yes sorry for not being efficient colleagues ... I might
be able to help because I've got a pretty looking
for is essentially help or give up some placeholder wording
and hopefully can be refined so I'd like to move
that number to be amended ... to read so where
it says to meet equitable access I've like to propose
some other wording so to work with the disability community
to appropriately balance
equitable access to facilities and amenities in Beacon Hill park
through any
current or future road closures
and then at the end of that sentence at the
words with well well the technician to
appropriately balance with
reduction
in the impacts of motor vehicle traffic
on all park users
including on people with disabilities
all second it's
it should be cleaned up but ... okay ... motivate
the moat the intention here is I think we do
have to give clear direction to staff ... that it
is a priority for council to ensure that people with
disabilities have access to our parks including facilities and amenities
within the parks ... and also I think to signal
that it's a priority of council to reduce the impact
of motor vehicles on all park users including on people
with disabilities we need to recognize that those two objectives
aren't identical and that there is a requirement for some
balancing that we may need to enlist some external expertise
to determine how these objectives can be balanced effectively ...
but I think it is important for council to give
that direction ... and I think if staff team that
they need some additional resources whether potentially beginning the work
with funding from this year's contingency fund and potentially resuming
it we're continuing it in the twenty twenty two financial
year ... I think we should move forward with this
work without delay so that's my rationale for including the
language around current closures as well as future ... and
so I guess we'll hopefully a majority will support these
amendments
thanks ... my ... my I second it will speak
next on the list other speakers I I was going
to propose something similar but to be a bit more
direct about it switches to work with the disability community
to properly balance the needs but ... Mr Slee ECRI
there he's not there okay I couldn't see behind councillor
Andrew ...
I was just gonna make it very specific ... was
on the proposed roads above or something so I guess
my question is what what would staff to do with
this direction because the direction one is immediately open all
road so then I I I support I support the
spirit of this I just wanna make sure I just
wanna know what would happen like what would staff's point
of order to explain my previous speech to show up
my intention is not to support one just to disclose
that I intend to I would vote in favor an
amended number two and three and I would be voting
against one as I have previously
and to proceed okay that's helpful so then I'm going
to make an in at number two ... an amendment
to amend number two ...
which is to work with the disability community to meet
... so at that they appropriately balance equitable access that's
fine to facilities and amenities in Beacon Hill park through
the closure
or Paul park or partial closure
all of the above roads
is there a seconder
K. there's no seconder okay
if I motivated before amending then you might so basically
would take it number one says immediately open thank you
councillor alto thank you number one says immediately opened all
the roads ... I I I don't support immediately open
all the roads I do support looking at those three
roads identified three passengers identified by councillor Andrew ... through
the lands that has been put forward ... by councillor
resident councillor Andrew so it it's it's that balancing act
... what I didn't like about the original motion future
road closures is just like it might happen sometime in
the future ... so I guess the number two is
loose enough that if we do need to open the
roads right now to meet human rights ... issues and
that's fine ... but I want the consideration to be
specifically with respect to these these three areas because those
are the ones of the public have come to appreciate
so it might be clunky and we might be stacked
up here but I I actually would support number one
as long as it's not off in the future that
we might consider them but we consider them kind of
immediately so that's the rationale for the amendment to the
amendment councillor alto as a generous second or do you
have anything to add and then I'll look at other
speakers ... yeah I did second so we discuss and
I'm not I'm not sure if I support this I'm
just thinking it through because a
I'm not sure I understand how if too was adopted
that it wouldn't preclude adopting one because it seems to
me that two is based on the
either closing or at least partially closing the roads where
is the first section is about closing the roads so
hello I'm a little unsure as to how the two
could work compatibility but I'm I'm happy to seconded it
for conversation okay thanks yet it might be a bit
clunky I've got councillor Potts counselor young councillor Andrew and
then I'll come back myself to try and explain what
I'm trying to achieve which I think is a balance
between what everyone else is also trying to do so
councillor Potts go ahead and make a discussion me better
for ... if Mr silly returns to the conversation but
we ... previously I discussed some work that staff was
doing in terms of ... I'm looking at the road
to become a park and I wanted to understand that
a bit more because I I from what I understood
there was some work under way driven by start stuff
does anyone object moving this to is Mr Slee gone
for the day we just move this next Thursday when
he's here
you object okay then no problem Mr Mr Belafonte
... thank you madam I did talk to about this
with the direct the city a peaceful they select I
hope you know can off some comments on his behalf
... and I think before right I specifically respond to
your comment councillor ... ... I think west staff were
at the moment laws that ... regardless of whether the
... pop wonder if the motion is adopted or not
... stuff would be bringing forward ... as part of
the twenty twenty two financial plan ... proposals to and
to take a more comprehensive and fulsome review of all
the pathways and the drive files within the park so
that's where we were before ... these are ... amendments
work with being contemplated
a to your point ... I mean that and I
make that point because I think ... given some of
the background stuff's sort of current view is that more
comprehensive ... entire look at all the all the connections
would be preferable rather than an incremental approach never the
less ... you are correct councillor that stuff before today
had been looking at some some options ... in preparation
potentially for an alternative ... way forward our preference would
be that it would be thoughtful some comprehensive look
... thanks for that clarity I think that yeah all
of this work whether it ... it
past to this motion today are looking at the staff
work will require staffing resourcing and budget budgeting and I
think that ... just given that the work is under
way I I think it would be preferable to rather
than continually I make small amendment ... bring motions and
amendments by count out council the council table like this
to have a fulsome review and I think I read
a favor following this the staff direction and to to
really look at this appropriately and make sure that ...
... that we are at intending to all the accessible
needs and and pick up mentioning as an appropriate balance
of an equitable access I think ... we can tweak
all we want but I think we really need that
the good work to be done and then of course
this work will require budgeting so might as well just
stay the course
thank you are councillor young councillor Andrew counselor Loveday and
then myself I think I understand my amendment now
I agree with counselor Potts so we should ... look
at a full set of options I agree with counselor
also that the ... amendment to the amendment ... referring
to the above roads ... doesn't make sense if we
don't adopt one number one and now I am in
the same camp as councillor eyes that I plan to
vote against option one hi I think ... news
and I think we need a full ... study I've
said before I I agree that probably there should be
some more openings I think there should be better access
to our ... our washrooms today I don't agree that
whatever existed in the past is the best situation and
that the principle that the human rights commission will adopt
is once you open a road to traffic it's always
gonna stay open to me ... that's that's not a
principle is and somebody said there are a number of
groups of the mobility impaired ... some of those people
are not in the situation of either having access to
a private automobile that they are able to drive even
though they are able to to walk or use a
wheelchair for a long distance or ... in in in
... the camp of having somebody
who is able to drive them through the park and
that's the camp that seems to we seem to have
heard most from but it's not the only a group
of those with mobility impairments I think a fresh look
at this whole thing as our staff has suggested they're
doing
is the right way to go I think we probably
will end up with ... some kind of ... compromise
... I can't foresee exactly what it will be ...
but I I think that we should stick with the
with the plan we have now and I think I've
commented on the sub of the amendment the supplement on
the main motion side I don't have to say yeah
thank you for officially your efficiency we do have an
in camera item where we have an external person here
that we need to get to kind of soon ishe
... and we've got a wrap up by five so
everyone can use their time as wisely as we can
with that knowledge councillor Andrew and then councillor Loveday
I think any councillor it's gonna vote against item one
they just wanna point out I mean we you
Cuman writes on not something that you would give to
somebody in time they are ... the you can't say
well we'll do it next week because that's more convenient
... and I think by this motion nine two that
really what we're doing is we're creating a second class
person and if you read the code ... it says
section eight a person must not without a bona fide
and reasonable justification of which we know we don't have
is to deny personal class of persons any accommodations service
or facility customarily available to the public or to discriminate
against person or class of persons regarding any accommodation service
facility or customer and then ... it's customary they will
to the public so I'm totally fine I will not
be supporting this amendment I'm totally fine with ... looking
at ways to meet the requirements as we've said to
pedestrian Eisen and ... deal with that situation within the
park this is not about as I said it's not
about vehicles it's about people so until we can come
up with the situation that results that that meets the
rationalization in deals with that the climate change concerns that
people have and the accessibility in the park we must
immediately open those roads to meet our obligations as a
city to human rights legislation and it's that simple and
to I find it stunning that there are some people
at this council table that can't see that and the
people that represent ... house sitting on a disability ...
... ... committee so I won't be supporting this and
... there is no excuse those roads need to be
opened up today and ... or as soon as we
can
and and and that's it we can't say we're going
to put this down the road and in two thousand
and twenty two we will give you what you deserve
... disable community I think that's just appalling
okay can councillor Loveday and then myself and then councillor
rises
actually if you go I I just don't understand sure
yeah sure so basically ... I was planning to support
number one ... and but I don't want the original
wording of number two was at some future date will
consider maybe closing roads I want to open the roads
and then to work with the disability community to appropriately
balance the actual access facilities amenities in Beacon Hill park
for the closure or partial closure of the above roads
so open them and then let's have those consultations to
figure out how do we close them in a way
that's going to ... reduce reduce the impacts of motor
vehicle traffic including on people with disabilities so mine is
a it's a different take on councillor eyes it's because
his says ... the the the rosary open so basically
if it is a bit confusing because it's like a
choose your own adventure if you're gonna vote against one
what amendment do you support on number two so I
am going to support my amendment it does assume that
one is going to pass ... and and that's how
that shakes down so if you that's yeah that's the
best I can I can say
I just don't want that the original wording of the
motion was too loose at some point in the future
we might close roads I actually think we do need
to close the roads that we need to do it
in a way that's consul consulted with the disability community
and that takes into consideration all the other language and
bold so I don't know if that helps or not
okay I any other speakers on the amendment to the
amendment yes councillor Isitt
I don't support the amendment
I think councillor Andrew described I think a certain type
of accessibility which is individuals traveling in cars many people
with mobility impairments and other disabilities I can't drive sometimes
for socioeconomic reasons they don't own a vehicle and their
family members don't own vehicles there's a whole other way
to think about accessibility which is and that's when this
was debated a month ago on ... arbutus way before
... the closures there was no accessible rooms to go
north so through the park and it's hard when we
don't have a map ... but this motion if number
one is approved it will have a very negative impact
on accessibility instantly there will be no accessible room for
an individual in a wheelchair or mobility scooter or some
other mobility aids who needs a hard surface like pavement
they will not be able to enter into the park
... by any means other than a motorized means having
to essentially be in a motor vehicle unless they want
to put themselves at risk by having to share a
few this road with motor vehicles and many people don't
feel safe sharing roads in that way you have someone
in a vulnerable person in a wheelchair up against ...
someone wrapped in two thousand pounds of steel and plastic
and all the other hazards that we know are common
on public roads that's why we that proceed with things
like separated sidewalks unlike a lot of the district of
Senate it's why we have protected bike lanes so that
people traveling in wheelchairs on foot on bicycles are on
a different are separated from motor vehicles our staff have
provided that separation on arbutus way it came at the
expense of motor vehicles being able to drive into the
park but it meant that there was an accessible pedestrian
including the wheelchair a
routes north so through the park so I don't support
removing that accessibility and that would be the immediate effect
if number one is supported so I really hope that
council will not immediately throw open the roads and will
instead give direction to our staff to mobilize the resources
they need in the expertise they need to determine how
we can appropriately balance equitable access to facilities with the
the goal the very supportable goal of reducing the impacts
of motor vehicle traffic on all park park users okay
councillor Thornton Joe
well the fact that we close them but I think
mostly due to cold that I think
we need to re open them ... and then take
the appropriate time to do the work ... with the
disability community and and props I I'm you know I
I think there's some other amendments of number two requires
... because it could mean that while working with a
disability ... community
we should be trying to find a way to fix
it ... when we don't have the expertise in and
... abilities or disabilities or or challenges that an individual
might have and so I think by by referring it
to groups that do they may say it is challenging
for those who don't want the traffic so this is
what we recommend ... here and because is for these
reasons and so I think this number to needs to
be worded in a way that ... sentence is balancing
whatnot embossed appropriately ...
vice equitable not up ... to me balancing because I
think that word comes in this contest give me some
concerns I think could be the closure
the non closures or partial Clarissa I think we need
to it's like what we said about staff staff to
tell us what you want and let us go and
do it and what we want is
... equitable access so I think we should be just
saying that let it go to the staff and the
and the ... disability community and let them come back
and so the buzz word smithing trying to create a
what we think is the right solution thank you I
think the challenges that some people think that partial or
full road closures are good and some people don't think
they are so we're divided on that ... what I'd
what I request is if we could just at least
vote to clean up number two so we're not stacked
up with amendments to amendments so if you're in support
of everything with the three stars basically the language that
I proposed ... please raise your hand now so all
those in favor of that amendment
okay those opposed so opposed are councillor young councillor Thornton
Joe councillor eyes it to councillor Andrew so that carries
with five in favor as I I should just call
the oppose councillor Dubow didn't raise his hand so he's
in favor of the amendment to the amendment carries some
as of all can you just clean it up for
us
and now we have to vote on that amendment
once it's cleaned up
and again just remind us council that we do have
an external person that's here to give us some in
camera time so we wanna make sure we honor that
and that person is only available to five as are
we because of getting ready for tonight's meeting
okay so miserable because I good that cleaned up so
the now the amendment is to add the bold and
strikes the strike through okay any further discussion on not
yeah councillor alto sorry but I find any earlier rational
you had referenced not wanting the reference to future that's
true and it should be my in the any current
or future road closures goals that went that went so
that's right that that language of instructors thank skills that's
right so the closure partial closure of the above roads
with a reduction that's right thank you so that's the
amendment that's now on the table
run take a minute to read it
yeah councillor alto
just a question clarification too I understand too now
but I'm just wondering
if you could comment mayor helps this is was your
amendment how do you see the relationship between number one
and number two are not mutually exclusive
there is there not if number one because their original
the original number two was at some future point we
consider closing the roads all I'm trying to do is
say not at some future point kind of now so
if we open the road stand staff need to go
and do the work to figure out okay how do
we make it more equitable ... for closure or partial
closure not in the future at some point but now
like the problem is that we've closed the roads because
of Colwood we haven't closed the roads ... in a
in a way that ... balances everyone's needs we did
it as a knee jerk and we need to be
more thought front lots I think what what is the
point of the original motions so person could vote in
favor of number one and in favor of number two
yes that that that's correct so number one if it's
adopted means rose would open but if number two is
adopted they would open subject to this work
correct thank you you're welcome okay yeah councillor Dubow and
then councillor Thornton Joe yes thanks for helps I have
a question for clarification when it sees to walk with
the disability community
could you tell me more what would that mean disability
organization would mean accessibility committee at city hall councillor Andrew
can you please answer that was your wording yes ...
I would assume we would talk to the accessibility working
group we would also talk with members of the same
committing such as a disability resource center and someone just
to insure we would campus them and ensure that we
were doing in the right way
I'm would it be helpful to to make the language
more specific no absolutely not ... so then would
a question to the staff at what direction does this
motion give it to you in terms all
and who you walk with because for me when I
agreed disabilities communities to browse doesn't give me more specific
use of the eve willing gate with organizations Mr Belle
Fontaine I see the tension is that but the the
language that's captured before I go to Mr Bellefontaine I'll
just remind council that we do have an accessibility framework
that was developed through extensive engagement over two year period
with the disability community so ... but Mr Bellefontaine how
do you interpret that general seeming language yes thank you
I think as councillor Andrew indicated ... ... given some
of the discussions we've had today in the spirit of
this motion we would ... we would bring a broad
spectrum of expertise to the table so it would be
the accessibility committee we would look at the heat a
number of accessibility groups who we have had ... great
relationships with it in the past on specific projects such
as the framework acceptable parking and so on and and
also I suspect ... individuals with lived experience so so
we would make sure it was a representative ... ...
group ... contributing to this discussion
there are hidden that answer and it satisfies me on
I'm happy to hear the staff has already leased of
who they engage so with this information is also good
for the public you might be wondering and the same
way so now that that I hear that answer on
this on the record and I'm very satisfied okay thank
you very much councillor Thornton Joe councillor Andrew counselor young
on the amendment I'd like to make another amended Tim
can we just can we just do can we clean
it up first and then so we're not stacked up
helps I was a voice is against referring it to
next week I'd be very happy if you want to
table a central ... tonight tonight is a council meeting
...
just out yes I management service that's a good idea
why don't we just refer this matter to tonight's council
meeting second okay seconded by councillor Thornton Joe ... all
those in favor any opposed okay and Mr Kingsley that's
fine to do that okay perfect okay so this goes
to tonight's council meeting will continue of the discussion then
... so that means that we need a motion to
adjourn committee of the whole thank you councillor alto seconded
by councillor Andrew accounts or enter thank you for that
suggestion all those in favor of adjourning any opposed okay