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And then we'll have the pledges. Dear Lord, I come to you this morning and thank you for the start of another busy week and busy day.

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We thank you for your many blessings upon us in this community. I pray that you would be with us in the decisions before us today. In your name I pray. Amen.

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Next

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item we have on the agenda is to consider approval of minutes.

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this would have been our April 8th meeting and a copy of those are in front of each of you.

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All those in favor? Any opposed? Motion approved.

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Item 4, Citizens' Communication,

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anyone with us this morning that would like to bring up an item of county business that's

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not yet listed on the agenda is welcome to do so at this time.

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Richard anything?

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anything?

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All right, well, then we will move right along to item number five, which is consider

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approval of accounts payable for Victoria County and take appropriate action.

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Our accounts payable for April 15, 2019 came to a total of $495,673.18, and our supplemental

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for the week came to $133,666.43.

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Move for approval.

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Second.

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All those in favor?

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Aye.

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Any opposed?

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Motion approved.

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Item number six, receive monthly and quarterly reports from various county

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officials and departments and take appropriate action.

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This morning we have monthly reports from the Justice of Peace,

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Precinct number two, and comment on these precincts, numbers two and four.

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Move, proceed.

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Second.

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All those in favor?

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Aye.

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Aye.

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Any opposed?

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Motion approved.

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Item number seven, consider approval of bond for-fiture releases and take appropriate action.

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We haven't done this one.

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Easy enough.

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Item eight, consider approval of Citizens Medical Center interim vendor payments and take appropriate action.

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You each have the April 11th letter from the hospital showing interim vendor payments in

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the amount of $500,344.77. The ACH report on that same day of April 11th, 2019 was in the

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amount of $2,309,500.69.

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Move for approval.

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Second.

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All those in favor?

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Aye.

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Aye.

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any opposed motion approved item number nine here presentation and discuss

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possible public defender program and take appropriate action let's see and we're

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going to have let's see was it David Hall who okay yes that's right we've met

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David good to see again and then Edwin Colfax we spoke with the Texas

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is indigent defense commission. Okay, well welcome both of you. Appreciate you all being

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back here. I know we've visited before some of our district judges, county court at law

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judges, but we wanted to have the full court here to be part of this discussion and to

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have our questions answered. So appreciate you all being here. I guess I'll turn the

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floor over to whomever whichever of you wants to give us some background on this

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and then we'll. I'll go first. So I'm Edwin Colf. I'm the grant program manager at

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the Texas Indigent Defense Commission. I appreciate a chance to visit with y'all

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this morning about some of the grant programs that we offer and in particular

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on indigent defense programs that support a public defender program to

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provide indigent defense services. So first just a little bit of quick

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background about our agency. The Texas Indigent Defense Commission was created back in 2001

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by the legislature. It is made up of judges, county judges, constitutional judges, criminal

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court judges, some elected officials, and some attorneys. And the mission of the Indigent

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Defense Commission is to ensure that people's Sixth Amendment rights to have counsel when

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charged with the crime, even if they can't afford it, are honored. So we work with counties

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to provide some funding. We provide some oversight and technical assistance for counties.

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All counties are eligible to get formula grant funding from TIDC, and unfortunately that

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only covers about 10 to 14 percent of the county's cost for appointing lawyers to

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indigent defendants. That's the formula grant funding that pretty much everyone

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gets including Victoria County. Our commission has been advocating for years to be able to do more

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and provide more assistance to counties. We work with the legislature and do what we can with

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the funds that we receive. So that's kind of our baseline funding that we're able to offer.

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We have what we call an improvement grant program which is project specific grants that we offer

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and including grants to operate a public defender program. So traditionally and here in Victoria

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County, indigent defense responsibilities are met by the judges creating what we often

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refer to as the wheel or a list of attorneys who are qualified to provide representation

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in those cases.

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And then those attorneys represent the clients that are appointed after they're qualified

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as indigent, they're appointed an attorney.

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The attorney sends a bill into the court, they review that bill one by one and then

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can approve or in some cases adjust the payment and send that off to the auditor. The auditor

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makes the payment to the attorney. Public Defender Program is a different model for providing

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indigent defense. It's a little more integrated. It's more cohesive. And some of its primary

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benefits are providing enhanced oversight and accountability with respect to this function.

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So the way a public defender works is sort of like the other side of the coin from

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the county attorney or the district attorney's office. You've got staff

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attorneys who are hired when there's sufficient case volume, and certainly in

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a county as big as Victoria, you have plenty of cases to justify having some

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staff attorneys dedicated to this work. Those attorneys, staff court dockets,

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they're routinely getting out to the jail to interview the clients as soon as

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they're appointed to get things rolling on the cases, starting

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leading representation from our experience much earlier than most appointed private lawyers

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are able to do because of their competing obligations.

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And so this sort of what I would say more cohesive or organized approach to providing

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indigent defense services has a lot of benefits and our commission has kind of prioritized

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this as a model that is preferable because of the enhanced accountability that comes

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along with it. When you have a staff attorney, they are supervised. They're getting training.

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They're being, you know, their work is being looked at. The judges who have the responsibility

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of, you know, kind of providing that oversight on an assigned counsel system, they see

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the attorneys in the court taking pleas and occasionally in trial. And that gives

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them some visibility into the quality of the work and whether they're checking all the

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boxes they need to check, but that's only kind of a sliver of the work that the attorneys

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are doing is the work that happens in the courtroom.

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And so the extra accountability and oversight that comes along with the public defender

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model has made this a kind of priority for the Commission in terms of encouraging

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counties to look at this model and providing grant funding to come along with it.

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So the kind of improvement grants that our commission offers, the standard model is for

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us to just provide start-up funding for counties.

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So in a regular grant, we would provide 80% of the costs in the first year, step down

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to 60% in the second year, 40%, 30%, 20%, and then eventually have the county pick it

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up.

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For public defender counties, rather for public defender projects in rural counties,

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and we draw that line at a hundred thousand or less, the commission has

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approved what we call sustainability grants. So we would, for these types of

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grants, we'll still start accounting off where the state funds 80% of the project

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costs in the first year, steps down to 60% of the project costs in the second

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year, and then basically levels off at 50% costs moving forward. So basically

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Basically, we provide extra funding on the first two years to cover some of the costs

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associated with the transition from private sign counsel, the public funder model, and

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then level off at 50-50 state-county cost sharing.

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It's a very good deal for counties in the sense that you still continue to get your

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formula grant funding from TIDC.

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That formula grant funding, while it's only a small percentage of your overall costs,

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is based, in part, on 50% of that number is based on the county's population, so that

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part is going to stay the same, and then 50% is dependent upon the county's overall expenses

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for indigent defense.

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So you still get that formula grant funding coming in.

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You get 50% of the cost of the public offender covered in your beginning in year three.

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It'd be higher percentage in the first couple years.

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So essentially the state is able, under this kind of a model, to pick up more than

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150% of the costs of county indigent defense, which is the best deal we have going and much

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better than the standard formula grants.

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The reason the commission feels comfortable with that and has provided these grants in

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this way or offered these grants in this way is because of that extra quality assurance

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that you get.

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You really know, you have a much better sense of what the county is getting for

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its indigent defense spending when those folks are operating within a program that

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It has supervision, mentoring,

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employee reviews on an annual basis.

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There's just a lot more oversight comes along with it, and so that's kind of the rationale

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behind why we're able to offer that higher level of funding for this type of a program.

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So the grant, we offer these grants on kind of an annual basis.

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We are coming up to a deadline of May 10th to put in a request for one of these public

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defender grants.

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I should circle back and say that counties have a couple of options on how to operate

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a public defender.

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One option is to do it just like you would do the county or district attorney's office

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and the county directly hires staff, staffs up an office and operates it directly.

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TIDC beginning back in 2007, I believe it was, started a program with B county in partnership

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partnership with Texas Rio Grande Legal Aid to operate a public defender under contract.

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So it's sort of outsourcing model that counties can use, and it's really kind of a turnkey

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operation in the way that TRLA is able to offer these services.

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So TRLA, they're a nonprofit corporation.

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They staff up to provide the indigent defense services and represent those cases.

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They'll open an office in the jurisdiction and provide all that kind of oversight and

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accountability that I was referring to.

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And for most counties, particularly smaller counties,

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the big urban counties that have public defenders generally

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choose to operate them directly in the way

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that the district attorney works, county employees.

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Most smaller counties find that contracting or outsourcing

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these services works better for them.

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It manages those kinds of, you know,

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you don't have to worry about the pension obligations

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and the health insurance benefits and all that.

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It's kind of covered by the nonprofit that contracts

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with the county to provide the services. So that's the model that we've been discussing with

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Judge Zeller and a few other folks here in the county. I know that TRLA has provided some

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preliminary budget numbers and then refined those numbers with some, based on some feedback from

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Judge Zeller. In terms of the process with the grant at this juncture, it is important to

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get a grant request into us before that May 10th deadline. However, if there are still

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questions about the scope of the program or budget details to be addressed. When you

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turn in a grant request to us before that deadline, you can just note that the budget

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is still being finalized, if you will. The main thing is that we just have a request

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in the hopper that's under consideration before that deadline, and then the details

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can continue to be discussed. If you do decide to move forward and turn in a grant

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application to us, the county is still under no obligation to move forward with

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the project. It just keeps, it allows us the opportunity to work with you to see if a project

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can be put together that meets everybody's needs in the budget that the county needs

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to see in order to move forward. So that's kind of the deadline to bear in mind as we

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are coming up close to it.

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TRLA and my agency are happy to work with the county if you would like some assistance

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drafting the application. Because it's a program that a number of counties across

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the state are using. We're very familiar with it and we could help you put together a grant

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application in pretty short order. Our application is, I would say, much less onerous than a

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lot of government grant opportunities, if you've ever waited through some of those.

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Ours was pretty straightforward. So, I'm happy to answer any questions. That's kind

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of an overview. I know that David Hall can speak to you a little bit more detail

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about the operation of his program, some of the budget numbers that have been

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provided for the commissioners. But looking at both the preliminary budget that was provided

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and the refined budget based on your feedback to the dollar, it looks like the county stands

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to save several hundred thousand dollars even after the initial step down from 80% funding

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to 50%. It looks like it makes a good, looks good from a financial perspective for the

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county in terms of saving several hundred thousand dollars on these, on this area

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representation. I'm happy to answer any questions before I turn over to David or I can just

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Let him talk about his program.

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Okay. And we do have the revised projection numbers. I don't think I've seen the revised ones.

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Okay. Yeah, well, I guess I'll point out for the benefit of the court and maybe those who

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haven't heard about this or been involved in these discussions were relatively new to

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this discussion early on in this discussion it wasn't but about well when

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did we meet originally about probably months ago thirty days ago three weeks

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ago and so I'm I'm new to studying this and to looking at this but I have been

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studying it intently because it it does have a lot of appeal to it the model

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of having the public defender office in-house and also the nonprofit program are both from

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what I've seen more expensive than doing it the way we're doing it now.

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The PERC, financially, is that this being a priority of the state, they're willing

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to put a lot of investment into it, 80 percent the first year, 60 percent the second

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year and then 50 percent in each year following.

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So that's what makes it financially a good deal, appears to make it financially a good deal.

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I know in Victoria County we've got some quirks that are different than some of the other counties you all do business in.

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A much higher co-defendant rate than normal.

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Also the dynamic of us having pretrial service department already.

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which was what I was wanting to see if it could be built into this proposal, those two dynamics.

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The original estimate we saw showed, and I really am avoiding the first and second year

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because we'll definitely save money the first two years.

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I'm looking at on a permanent basis what we could reasonably assume our cost savings to be.

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That original estimate showed over $300,000 a year in cost savings, which I thought could

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be increased, and in fact would probably need to be increased, given the fact that with

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our high co-defendant rate we'd still be maintaining a fairly robust wheel.

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And so are you able to distribute those revised numbers now or, David, are you

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able to speak to that.

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He's going in our packet or anything? No. That's all a surprise. Yeah,

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I don't know anything about it. I don't have a paperwork or I have nothing. Well, I think

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the paperwork's right here. And I don't I haven't seen this either.

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And these numbers

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came from where sir? They came from the numbers that the county submits to the office of

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Court's administration and to TIDC. It comes off of their websites, both of them are on

226
00:18:36,940 --> 00:18:44,060
their website. And with permission of the judge, this is the revised budget.

227
00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:48,500
Wonderful, wonderful. Yeah, thank you. Okay.

228
00:19:01,830 --> 00:19:07,990
Well, the first, first thing that, if it's all right, if I ask a question, is our,

229
00:19:08,790 --> 00:19:10,350
What about our local attorneys?

230
00:19:11,610 --> 00:19:19,630
We have local attorneys that take care of the district and county courted law.

231
00:19:20,350 --> 00:19:28,550
Are they able to continue to, if we went this way, they more or less wouldn't be included?

232
00:19:28,810 --> 00:19:30,590
Or could they join your group?

233
00:19:30,790 --> 00:19:37,030
Well, we would probably try to hire several of them if we can convince them to work for our salaries.

234
00:19:37,030 --> 00:19:43,010
salaries. Our salaries are fairly low, but we always try when we start up one of these

235
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projects to hire some local people. The best example I can give you is Star County. We've

236
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got a little three-county regional program with Duvall, Jim Hogg, and Star County.

237
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We hired the former district attorney who'd been there as the DA for 20 years, and we

238
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is now our chief defender in the Starr County operation.

239
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And we hired an investigator from the sheriff's office.

240
00:20:15,030 --> 00:20:18,150
And we have six lawyers in that county.

241
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So a third of them are from Starr County originally

242
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with experience.

243
00:20:25,130 --> 00:20:27,410
In order to operate, this would

244
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be a mixture of felony representation

245
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:33,310
and misdemeanor representation.

246
00:20:35,050 --> 00:20:40,970
Misdemeanors, we normally start out with fairly inexperienced lawyers, recent law graduates

247
00:20:40,970 --> 00:20:47,430
from law school, and we train them in-house so that they can come up through the system.

248
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It's important to bring those kinds of lawyers in and train them from the beginning.

249
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It brings a new bloodstream of lawyers into your community.

250
00:20:58,670 --> 00:21:04,590
This program, because of the size of your caseload, would require about a 10-lawyer operation.

251
00:21:06,130 --> 00:21:11,990
And a good mixture would be four, five, six, that we could hire locally.

252
00:21:12,390 --> 00:21:22,530
And a similar number that we would bring in as recent law school graduates to take on the misdemeanor docket and caseload.

253
00:21:23,510 --> 00:21:30,190
Before I get any further in this discussion, I'd like to introduce, I don't need to introduce

254
00:21:30,190 --> 00:21:31,430
Ron Walker, I suppose.

255
00:21:32,170 --> 00:21:33,310
We know Ron.

256
00:21:33,510 --> 00:21:34,550
We do know Ron.

257
00:21:34,770 --> 00:21:39,830
Ron's on the TRLA Board of Directors, so he's the boss of it all.

258
00:21:40,590 --> 00:21:42,930
Robert Doggett is going to be here shortly.

259
00:21:43,190 --> 00:21:50,830
He was having child delivery issues at school today, so he's coming out of Austin, so

260
00:21:50,830 --> 00:21:53,150
He was somewhat delayed, but he'll be here in a few minutes.

261
00:21:54,690 --> 00:21:57,110
But he is the executive director.

262
00:21:57,370 --> 00:21:59,350
I'm the former executive director.

263
00:22:00,150 --> 00:22:02,070
I was there for a number of years.

264
00:22:03,310 --> 00:22:04,710
Ron was my boss.

265
00:22:04,930 --> 00:22:06,650
He didn't fire me while I was there.

266
00:22:07,110 --> 00:22:08,610
I retired honorably.

267
00:22:09,070 --> 00:22:09,610
There he is.

268
00:22:09,630 --> 00:22:14,250
And there's Robert Doggett, who came in late and dishonorably.

269
00:22:15,770 --> 00:22:17,850
Can I just take a response to the question?

270
00:22:17,970 --> 00:22:18,190
Sure.

271
00:22:18,190 --> 00:22:23,270
Mr. Jennings, regarding the local attorneys and what happens after this kind of transition,

272
00:22:25,070 --> 00:22:29,790
so any kind of public defender program can only take up to a certain number of cases

273
00:22:29,790 --> 00:22:35,390
because ethical rules prevent them from representing, for example, co-defendants in the same case.

274
00:22:35,890 --> 00:22:38,830
There's always going to be a fairly significant amount of cases.

275
00:22:39,090 --> 00:22:42,550
This is what the gazelle was referring to as the conflict cases.

276
00:22:43,090 --> 00:22:47,010
There's going to be a chunk of the cases that the public defender will be unable to take.

277
00:22:47,010 --> 00:22:51,730
So there's going to be an ongoing stream of cases that would be appointed to the same lawyers.

278
00:22:52,410 --> 00:22:59,910
The other thing that this program would not be involved with is the CPS cases, those family law cases,

279
00:23:00,050 --> 00:23:03,310
regarding parental rights and termination of parental rights.

280
00:23:03,850 --> 00:23:10,990
For most counties, that side of the appointed council business is pretty significant and growing.

281
00:23:11,530 --> 00:23:14,970
This wouldn't really touch that area of indigent representation.

282
00:23:14,970 --> 00:23:22,430
So, in terms of cases that would not be handled by this program, those are the big ones and

283
00:23:22,430 --> 00:23:23,290
fairly substantial.

284
00:23:24,270 --> 00:23:24,510
Okay.

285
00:23:24,730 --> 00:23:25,070
Thank you.

286
00:23:25,210 --> 00:23:25,310
Okay.

287
00:23:26,110 --> 00:23:28,490
So we're just talking about criminal cases.

288
00:23:28,690 --> 00:23:28,870
Yeah.

289
00:23:29,130 --> 00:23:30,010
Mr. Mayor and fellow members.

290
00:23:30,670 --> 00:23:30,950
All right.

291
00:23:31,010 --> 00:23:36,270
And if we could, since I know the court is seeing this for the first time, we can

292
00:23:36,270 --> 00:23:41,310
look at this sheet right here, Commissioner, I want the green heading up at the top and

293
00:23:41,310 --> 00:23:44,510
And look at exactly what is being proposed here.

294
00:23:45,110 --> 00:23:52,710
What these folks do is look at our statistics, our case, case, number of cases we encounter.

295
00:23:53,530 --> 00:24:01,370
And based upon that volume, they, and just use statistic, statistical models, estimate

296
00:24:01,370 --> 00:24:03,070
what they need in staffing.

297
00:24:03,070 --> 00:24:12,390
Given the caseload in Victoria, they're estimating total full-time employees, full-time equivalents

298
00:24:12,390 --> 00:24:17,850
of 16.08 people of those 10 are attorneys.

299
00:24:18,330 --> 00:24:23,530
So based on the caseload they're seeing, they would need to hire 16 people.

300
00:24:24,070 --> 00:24:30,030
And you see the cost for that in salary and in benefits of about $1.1 million.

301
00:24:30,030 --> 00:24:41,210
They also estimate their other expenses, utilities, space, telephone, contract services, training

302
00:24:41,210 --> 00:24:43,610
all the other stuff about $200,000.

303
00:24:43,730 --> 00:24:52,590
So based upon our caseload, their program contract would cost us about $1.3 million,

304
00:24:53,850 --> 00:24:58,670
which certainly obviously is more than the roughly million we spend.

305
00:24:58,670 --> 00:25:06,350
But again, the perk here in what makes this possibly feasible is that the state is cost-sharing

306
00:25:06,350 --> 00:25:07,490
a lot of that.

307
00:25:08,190 --> 00:25:17,490
Down at the bottom, you see the 80% in year one projected to save us about $777,000.

308
00:25:18,090 --> 00:25:24,110
Year two at a 60% contribution, $543,000.

309
00:25:24,110 --> 00:25:32,250
And then in year three with the 50% call share, the savings is estimated to be about 412,000.

310
00:25:32,990 --> 00:25:41,150
Those numbers were originally lower, but in visiting with these folks about the fact that

311
00:25:41,150 --> 00:25:45,390
we're going to have to still maintain private attorneys,

312
00:25:48,530 --> 00:25:50,050
we would need to be a, well,

313
00:25:50,050 --> 00:25:56,450
So, co-defendants, and a lot of this I learned for the first time here recently, when there's

314
00:25:56,450 --> 00:26:03,650
a bust and arrest, whatever, where there's more than one person involved, that's what

315
00:26:03,650 --> 00:26:09,410
you're referred to as co-defendants, which typically in y'all's areas is around 10%,

316
00:26:09,410 --> 00:26:18,910
but here in Victoria, due to the prevalence of, I guess, gang activity, meth production,

317
00:26:18,910 --> 00:26:22,130
And it's higher than that, around 25%.

318
00:26:22,130 --> 00:26:22,950
The buddy system.

319
00:26:23,530 --> 00:26:25,790
The buddy system. OK, the buddy system.

320
00:26:26,030 --> 00:26:30,490
So given that fact, y'all were able to scale down your employees a little bit,

321
00:26:30,590 --> 00:26:33,070
thus increasing those cost savings.

322
00:26:35,290 --> 00:26:39,870
One thing we'll have to still consider on our end is what we would maintain.

323
00:26:40,250 --> 00:26:43,170
Still maintain paying private attorneys. Correct.

324
00:26:43,270 --> 00:26:46,130
Which looking at that, Caitlin, we came up with.

325
00:26:47,310 --> 00:26:51,990
I think around roughly $200,000.

326
00:26:52,110 --> 00:26:57,210
Roughly $200,000 is what we'd still maintain paying private attorneys.

327
00:26:57,730 --> 00:27:02,290
So again, this sheet that you're looking at here, their estimate on employees needed,

328
00:27:02,570 --> 00:27:06,090
total cost, and then the estimated cost savings.

329
00:27:07,030 --> 00:27:12,250
My goal in all this is to make sure that those numbers at the bottom right are accurate,

330
00:27:12,410 --> 00:27:13,390
those cost savings.

331
00:27:14,770 --> 00:27:24,110
because I would think we would need to be fairly confident we're saving at least 250,000ish to have some margin for error.

332
00:27:25,610 --> 00:27:27,830
Constance, our DA has something you want to...

333
00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:28,370
Good morning, gentlemen.

334
00:27:28,390 --> 00:27:29,910
Good morning, gentlemen. How are you doing?

335
00:27:30,050 --> 00:27:30,410
I'm good.

336
00:27:30,990 --> 00:27:34,450
I would be remiss at this juncture if I didn't speak up.

337
00:27:34,610 --> 00:27:35,490
I want to thank these gentlemen.

338
00:27:36,010 --> 00:27:38,770
I first want to say that I know that this organization does fine work,

339
00:27:38,810 --> 00:27:42,430
and I know that the counties that they are serving, they're providing an excellent service.

340
00:27:43,210 --> 00:27:47,790
The projected numbers that you're looking at, though, if I'm not mistaken, are based

341
00:27:47,790 --> 00:27:53,610
on a glimpse three years back, and so under a different district attorney with a different

342
00:27:53,610 --> 00:27:58,390
philosophical approach to case management and charting decisions and things like that.

343
00:27:58,930 --> 00:28:02,710
And so I have to tell you that I don't think that the numbers going forward are going

344
00:28:02,710 --> 00:28:05,250
to be reflective of what you're seeing on paper at this moment.

345
00:28:05,670 --> 00:28:09,810
And so I'm not saying that in Victoria County in the future, this may not be the direction

346
00:28:09,810 --> 00:28:14,130
that we need to go but I'm saying to you not yet I would appreciate the

347
00:28:14,130 --> 00:28:18,850
opportunity to have a full year or two under our belt to see what impact a new

348
00:28:18,850 --> 00:28:22,450
philosophical approach has on these numbers I think that would be smart and

349
00:28:23,010 --> 00:28:26,250
you know at the same time complimenting the court and the judge

350
00:28:26,250 --> 00:28:29,610
certainly for exploring any opportunity to be good stewards of our tax dollars

351
00:28:29,610 --> 00:28:33,470
you know not not taking issue with that but I'm saying that perhaps it's

352
00:28:33,470 --> 00:28:38,530
premature at this junction to to make that decision because the numbers I think

353
00:28:38,530 --> 00:28:43,010
going to look a whole lot different so I needed to throw that into as my duty as

354
00:28:43,010 --> 00:28:47,450
your newly elected district attorney. Speaking of the time frame you had

355
00:28:47,450 --> 00:28:52,170
mentioned application needs to be made in May right what is it what is the time

356
00:28:52,170 --> 00:28:59,570
period for approval notification of award and that long time tell me tell

357
00:28:59,570 --> 00:29:04,510
me some yeah that happens in June tell me some stops along the way it all the

358
00:29:04,510 --> 00:29:10,550
way to y'all are on go in Victoria County. Right. The board decisions are made in

359
00:29:10,550 --> 00:29:16,570
June, right? So the staff will typically present the requests to our board and at

360
00:29:16,570 --> 00:29:20,470
the June meeting, which was early June, they can take action at that point. I

361
00:29:20,470 --> 00:29:24,030
mentioned that since there's still some refining and vetting to deal with the

362
00:29:24,030 --> 00:29:29,510
budget, if you know we don't present the grant request to our board until

363
00:29:29,510 --> 00:29:34,010
the county is fully ready to do so. So even though we have an

364
00:29:34,010 --> 00:29:35,970
May 10th, I'd like to kind of get something in the offer.

365
00:29:36,470 --> 00:29:38,650
We present it to the board in either June or August.

366
00:29:39,030 --> 00:29:40,610
More likely, I would think, in this case,

367
00:29:40,770 --> 00:29:42,930
it'd probably be right to present to the board

368
00:29:42,930 --> 00:29:43,750
for action in August.

369
00:29:44,970 --> 00:29:46,970
The start-up for the program would typically

370
00:29:46,970 --> 00:29:49,230
be slated for the fiscal year 2020, which

371
00:29:49,230 --> 00:29:51,010
begins in October on our calendar,

372
00:29:51,910 --> 00:29:52,610
for most counties.

373
00:29:53,730 --> 00:29:56,930
So we'd be looking at starting up October 1st.

374
00:29:57,110 --> 00:29:59,890
Because the IDs, whenever we implement a.

375
00:29:59,950 --> 00:29:59,970
Check out the video description.

376
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:07,720
A larger program, that schedule often is hard to meet, so we don't ever move forward until all the stakeholders are prepared to move forward.

377
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:13,200
We can leave the request pending for a few months, if needed, as details are worked out.

378
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:20,280
But the standard timeline would be to start up in October unless there's still work to be done.

379
00:30:20,340 --> 00:30:23,680
Well, we're on a calendar year. I don't know if that makes a difference.

380
00:30:24,740 --> 00:30:29,480
Now on these numbers, y'all pulled out the family law and the stuff that you can't do.

381
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,120
Yes, the family law stuff is not included in the projections.

382
00:30:33,940 --> 00:30:37,920
The case laws were based on review, as your district attorney just mentioned,

383
00:30:38,420 --> 00:30:44,000
for review of the most recent three years of data that we have about the volume of criminal cases

384
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,440
and how many attorneys and staff would be needed for that case.

385
00:30:49,530 --> 00:30:56,070
And there has been, and I concur with the district attorney, there has been fairly dramatic change

386
00:30:57,290 --> 00:31:04,170
even within this last three-year period in which she was not in the role of the district attorney.

387
00:31:04,850 --> 00:31:10,410
And that's not uncommon. You may see a 20-30% difference from year to year,

388
00:31:10,610 --> 00:31:13,230
which is the reason we use three-year averaging.

389
00:31:13,230 --> 00:31:20,270
And we go back every year and look at the numbers over the most recent three-year period

390
00:31:20,270 --> 00:31:22,110
and make adjustments.

391
00:31:22,530 --> 00:31:30,770
So if the case is decreased by 20% in the next year or the current year,

392
00:31:31,230 --> 00:31:35,050
that will be reflected in the next time the grant comes up for renewal,

393
00:31:35,350 --> 00:31:37,730
both with TIDC and with the county.

394
00:31:38,250 --> 00:31:41,390
So it's a running kind of an average that we're looking at.

395
00:31:41,390 --> 00:31:45,350
And those adjustments are made throughout the period.

396
00:31:45,870 --> 00:31:53,410
And of course, there's always the option if you don't like how the numbers are working for you to opt out of the contract.

397
00:31:54,130 --> 00:31:59,150
The only thing we ask is that you pay us for the cases that we still have obligations on.

398
00:31:59,150 --> 00:32:07,530
Okay, and I'll speak briefly to that. That is correct and I appreciate Constance you

399
00:32:07,530 --> 00:32:13,270
bringing that up because we do a different administration in the DA's office I think will

400
00:32:13,270 --> 00:32:23,750
definitely lead to savings there, to what extent we don't know yet. Of course those

401
00:32:23,750 --> 00:32:32,670
savings would be realized without proceeding with y'all if we stick with our current program,

402
00:32:33,030 --> 00:32:38,810
but you're saying we'd also, it seems like, I know that dynamic is true, we will see

403
00:32:38,810 --> 00:32:47,290
some lowering of costs, but would that unknown prevent us from proceeding? If instead of

404
00:32:47,290 --> 00:32:58,120
million we drop to 800,000, would that be a deal killer? And that's a question we

405
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:03,020
have to answer and certainly something we need to consider because that is a

406
00:33:03,020 --> 00:33:07,020
variable here. There's some other variables we'll get to, but Constance.

407
00:33:07,380 --> 00:33:11,980
And I didn't elaborate further and I'm not trying to domineer the meaning, but the biggest

408
00:33:11,980 --> 00:33:16,300
jumps that we saw in our numbers coincided with the prior administration's

409
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:22,280
And so one change in the way we do business can have a dramatic effect on the numbers

410
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:23,060
that you're looking at.

411
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,340
That policy is gone.

412
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:26,160
Right, right.

413
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,440
And so we're only three months into a new administration and I'm not sure, but I can

414
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,780
guarantee you the numbers are going to be lower going forward just because we are addressing

415
00:33:34,780 --> 00:33:35,560
things a little differently.

416
00:33:36,140 --> 00:33:41,400
My predecessor lauded the fact that he tried cases at three times the state average

417
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,240
and we're not embracing that philosophy.

418
00:33:43,380 --> 00:33:44,560
It's going to be some differences.

419
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:51,080
The other thing that concerns me is that if we go forward in this way, with the co-defendant

420
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,960
rates that we have on the books, the likelihood that the local attorneys that take those cases

421
00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:00,460
are out and that makes up a big part of their practice, they will move in another direction

422
00:34:00,460 --> 00:34:01,100
altogether.

423
00:34:01,700 --> 00:34:08,540
You can't maintain a practice without being on an appointed wheel and so I need to go

424
00:34:08,540 --> 00:34:13,800
back to some of those folks with one of these 25% of our docket that we're not

425
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,440
It would be unrealistic to expect that they're going to wait around for those cases.

426
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,740
They have to make a living and they'll go into other practice areas or go into another place.

427
00:34:22,720 --> 00:34:24,660
And so that does concern me as well.

428
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:32,000
I have a question. We're right on the cusp of the population cutoff for the funding of the levels you spoke of.

429
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:37,480
In the coming year, our census bump says above $100,000 to the formula. Does that change?

430
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:45,540
So we haven't been in that situation yet, but the commission would look at that to the benefit of the county.

431
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,160
I don't think we would suddenly slash it when you get to $100,000 in one.

432
00:34:49,460 --> 00:34:51,020
We're right there, so I need that.

433
00:34:51,140 --> 00:34:52,980
We came up with that threshold.

434
00:34:53,960 --> 00:35:01,500
There's a bill in legislature currently that is directing our agency to prioritize funding for counties below $100,000.

435
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:03,900
Of course, any number you think is going to be arbitrary.

436
00:35:03,900 --> 00:35:07,800
But I think the idea is that we want to prioritize

437
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,640
assistance to smaller counties, to better deal with them.

438
00:35:11,140 --> 00:35:14,420
And so I wouldn't anticipate that much of a risk.

439
00:35:15,340 --> 00:35:19,360
I've got a question back to what exactly what this is.

440
00:35:20,060 --> 00:35:25,760
Historically, well, do you hire new attorneys

441
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:27,940
fresh out of law school because they're cheaper?

442
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,240
I mean, the attorneys we have here,

443
00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:34,360
I've got to have a lot of experience in this field.

444
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:36,540
We're looking for a mixture.

445
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:42,380
You need about equal number of inexperienced and experienced lawyers.

446
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:49,580
So TRLA is a very large nonprofit law firm.

447
00:35:50,710 --> 00:35:53,960
We have currently about 185 lawyers.

448
00:35:55,590 --> 00:35:59,360
It's the largest civil legal services program in the country.

449
00:36:00,460 --> 00:36:09,360
So that means we have to recruit constantly, year-round, and we recruit all across the country.

450
00:36:10,380 --> 00:36:15,620
So we're always trying to bring in new people right out of law school.

451
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,620
We bring in 15 or 20 a year in an ordinary course of things.

452
00:36:20,180 --> 00:36:24,380
When you bring in, when you start up a new defender program at a jurisdiction,

453
00:36:24,380 --> 00:36:32,820
We always try to hire some of the experienced local lawyers as a priority because we need

454
00:36:32,820 --> 00:36:40,580
that kind of community knowledge and experience to train and mentor the younger lawyers.

455
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:46,940
And then we bring in that fresh blood from the law schools and hopefully put them in

456
00:36:46,940 --> 00:36:52,720
the community where they'll stay in the community and rise up through the ranks

457
00:36:52,720 --> 00:37:00,480
to management roles within the organization. So that's what we try to do. You're not always

458
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:08,720
successful in doing that. We prioritize, for example, in our recruitment efforts, people

459
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:15,500
who are bilingual in English and Spanish because a significant number of our clients speak Spanish.

460
00:37:15,500 --> 00:37:20,300
So we want to have people who can communicate in that language.

461
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:26,500
That reduces the pool fairly dramatically, and we make exceptions all the time to that.

462
00:37:26,780 --> 00:37:30,120
But it is an important factor that we have to consider.

463
00:37:30,860 --> 00:37:40,000
But yes, we will try earnestly to hire some of your local lawyers to take on these responsibilities.

464
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:47,420
You don't have any idea overall what percentage on the facilities y'all are already operating?

465
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:55,020
Well, I mentioned the Star County, which is the closest in terms of size that we're dealing with here.

466
00:37:55,540 --> 00:37:59,520
Star County has a population now of 62,000, 63,000.

467
00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:05,100
Victoria County's 92,000, the last I looked.

468
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:14,960
But Star County's poverty population is about almost 50 percent of the population is eligible for our services.

469
00:38:16,860 --> 00:38:21,580
Victoria County, it's about 20 percent, less than 20 percent, 18 percent.

470
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:29,360
So we actually have 10,000 more clients, potential clients, in Star County than we do in Victoria.

471
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:36,940
but we've hired locally in Star County. We've hired, as I mentioned, the former DA in his first assistant.

472
00:38:39,060 --> 00:38:45,560
One of the other lawyers we had there was another person who had experience in the county attorney's office.

473
00:38:46,140 --> 00:38:53,760
But whenever we can find local experienced lawyers who are good, we want to try to hire them.

474
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:56,660
It's for everybody's benefit.

475
00:38:56,900 --> 00:39:02,800
What we're trying to do is run as operationally efficient as we possibly can, and that comes

476
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:07,060
with having experienced lawyers who can work with the judges.

477
00:39:08,460 --> 00:39:15,480
Your judges have been out, almost uniformly and outspokenly, the district judges who

478
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:23,800
who had experience with our program in Goliad and Referio Counties have been praising.

479
00:39:24,620 --> 00:39:28,980
And we did invite them all, our four district judges, two county court and law judges.

480
00:39:29,100 --> 00:39:35,360
They had conflicting courtroom obligations, but I know at least three, well three of

481
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:40,360
our four district judges were supportive of it, the other I just haven't spoken to.

482
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:48,660
I think one where where did our county court at law stand one and I know judge

483
00:39:48,660 --> 00:39:54,600
Ernst didn't appear to be supportive of it I'm not sure about judge Gillon judge

484
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:59,640
Ernst if I might it sounded very much like Commissioner Janic he was concerned

485
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,700
about and I think Commissioner Burns expressed this in the meeting too

486
00:40:03,700 --> 00:40:08,560
concerned about the the private attorneys who might be displaced in some

487
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:14,160
proportion. And that was his, that was the biggest concern, I think, that he was articulate.

488
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,460
Yeah, and that's one variable we do have to consider. Yes, sir, did you have something?

489
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,600
What I think I'm hearing, if you just give us your name in the picture.

490
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,140
Yes, sir. My name is Bill White.

491
00:40:41,550 --> 00:40:44,790
Observations. I don't have access. I don't know.

492
00:40:50,450 --> 00:40:54,170
What I think I'm essentially hearing, and I've certainly been hearing about this

493
00:40:54,170 --> 00:40:55,750
for the last time before,

494
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,700
pretty high level of intensity. It's going around the court

495
00:41:00,700 --> 00:41:11,640
analysis is what I think I'm effectively hearing is maybe a de facto presumption that the first

496
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:18,240
year the grant will be 80. That is, I think, set in the next year 60. But I think the presumption

497
00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:25,180
comes in where that it's just going to get to 50 percent and it's going to come from

498
00:41:25,180 --> 00:41:28,120
the state, and it's just going to stay that way perpetually.

499
00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:30,980
Now, that's certainly possible.

500
00:41:31,860 --> 00:41:34,760
But as we all know, when we're talking about the future,

501
00:41:35,240 --> 00:41:38,440
it's always contingent on various things that are usually

502
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:39,940
beyond all of our control.

503
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:46,920
It's kind of like when you buy a new house in a proposed

504
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,780
neighborhood, there aren't many houses there yet.

505
00:41:50,100 --> 00:41:51,060
You're one of them.

506
00:41:51,580 --> 00:41:53,380
The developer tells you, well, don't worry.

507
00:41:53,380 --> 00:41:59,120
we're going to surround you with very nice homes just like your own.

508
00:41:59,580 --> 00:42:08,560
But as time goes on you may discover that that doesn't really happen due to market forces and other things that are beyond the other developers' control.

509
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,280
I'm not trying to say that the organization here is the developer.

510
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,980
We just don't know about the availability of grants.

511
00:42:18,700 --> 00:42:22,800
They may still be here in the next four or five years, the next ten years.

512
00:42:23,500 --> 00:42:24,880
Then again, they may not.

513
00:42:25,260 --> 00:42:27,000
No one knows where the economy is going.

514
00:42:27,420 --> 00:42:29,240
No one knows where it's going up or down.

515
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:37,180
The other observation I'd like to make is I have seen some numbers indicating that the newer lawyers,

516
00:42:37,420 --> 00:42:40,980
the brand new lawyers, will be coming out and working at the organization.

517
00:42:40,980 --> 00:42:49,720
The numbers I've seen and sent me in an email, I believe it was 35, maybe it was $45,000 a year.

518
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,880
Now I'm not totally sure on that. You may have numbers to the contrary.

519
00:42:54,480 --> 00:43:01,580
But I would submit that, you know, I'm fortunate enough to be old enough to have gone through law school

520
00:43:01,580 --> 00:43:07,060
and gone through a quote-unquote expensive law school where I paid for the whole thing with loans

521
00:43:07,060 --> 00:43:12,160
and I borrowed a grand total of $24,000 for all three years total.

522
00:43:12,860 --> 00:43:14,340
Now, the time I got out, I thought

523
00:43:14,340 --> 00:43:18,880
that was the absolute king's ransom, but I paid it off.

524
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:21,920
I believe now, at this point, youngsters

525
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,320
are probably coming out with eight to 10 times

526
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,480
that amount of money that they have invested and or borrowed.

527
00:43:29,220 --> 00:43:33,420
I would submit that what's going to wind up happening,

528
00:43:33,620 --> 00:43:36,460
at least with the brand new lawyers that it seems

529
00:43:36,460 --> 00:43:43,760
that the organization wants to hire is that they're not going to be here from now. They're

530
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:49,620
going to be from larger cities. They're going to probably rent an apartment on a six-month

531
00:43:49,620 --> 00:43:55,140
lease. And they're probably, as they do a good job here, I'm sure they'll do the best

532
00:43:55,140 --> 00:44:00,220
they can, but they're going to be actively looking for something that pays more. And

533
00:44:00,220 --> 00:44:05,760
I would submit to you that after the six-month lease or after the year ends, they're

534
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,940
going to find something more lucrative than we can blame them, right? They're probably going

535
00:44:09,940 --> 00:44:15,660
to owe a tremendous amount of money. And everybody wants to pay as much as they can. And so I

536
00:44:15,660 --> 00:44:23,100
submit that what's going to happen is that to a large extent, the defense bar that you're

537
00:44:23,100 --> 00:44:27,740
going to get on these indigent cases, through no fault of their own nor of the organization,

538
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,940
you're going to have tremendous turnover. You're going to have people that work here

539
00:44:31,940 --> 00:44:37,700
for nine months, and they leave six months, and they leave maybe a year, 15 months, and

540
00:44:37,700 --> 00:44:42,120
then they leave and go to San Antonio or Corpus Rd, a better, higher paying job.

541
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:49,100
And so you're constantly going to have somebody else who's always being trained, and they're

542
00:44:49,100 --> 00:44:54,500
being trained in the courtroom, and you're not going to have the experience level that

543
00:44:54,500 --> 00:44:58,820
I think you have now. As far as accountability, I have seen over the years

544
00:44:58,820 --> 00:44:59,460
um

545
00:45:00,140 --> 00:45:09,100
You know, it hasn't been an epidemic, but there have been some lawyers on the employment list who clearly weren't taking their obligations seriously, and they were just kind of trying to escape through.

546
00:45:09,420 --> 00:45:20,320
And I've seen judges remove those lawyers from the list, and it doesn't take very long. They figure out pretty quickly who cares, who doesn't, who's doing their homework, who isn't.

547
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:33,140
And, you know, I think there's already a system in place that's called our judges who are elected to look at the lawyers who maybe aren't going to take it seriously and send them on their way.

548
00:45:33,500 --> 00:45:43,220
So, again, I don't have anything against the organization, but at the same time I think there are perils both financial and professional if the county goes this way.

549
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:55,380
Well, thank you, Mr. White. I guess I would be more sympathetic to the second consideration

550
00:45:55,380 --> 00:46:03,880
about the turnover, maybe folks going to make more money elsewhere. The first issue we did

551
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:09,780
talk about, the state pulling the money and the grant going away, but I don't think

552
00:46:09,780 --> 00:46:14,640
think fear of that should prevent us from proceeding if that's what we think we should

553
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:19,400
do because if the grant goes away, we revert to the status quo.

554
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:26,240
We don't want to, for fear of that, grab the status quo immediately.

555
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:33,460
I mean, it's possible that, I mean, if we were to go into this program and the money

556
00:46:33,460 --> 00:46:40,260
were to go away in three years or four whenever, we'd have to redevelop the and pay the

557
00:46:40,260 --> 00:46:42,680
expensive back to the attorney wheel but

558
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:45,800
in foregoing this option that's where we are anyway

559
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:52,140
i guess there's a battle,

560
00:47:13,090 --> 00:47:15,870
I still probably got it, I'm 53, I probably had

561
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:23,020
it

562
00:47:23,020 --> 00:47:23,520
and

563
00:47:24,500 --> 00:47:25,740
I think I could speak for

564
00:47:32,970 --> 00:47:34,370
it, like everybody else there, and

565
00:47:36,700 --> 00:47:37,780
perhaps it'll be something

566
00:47:40,220 --> 00:47:45,880
you know, a lot of us have bachelors degrees that are very remarkable and we may just go off and get something outside of them

567
00:47:47,460 --> 00:47:49,200
what I'm saying is, if

568
00:47:49,200 --> 00:48:00,180
If there's later an attempt to go back to the status quo, you may find yourself with virtually nobody who's willing to step up and do that anymore,

569
00:48:00,240 --> 00:48:05,420
especially once they get the idea that, well, you know, I might do this gig for a couple years and then get eliminated.

570
00:48:06,180 --> 00:48:12,420
So I don't think it's going to be very attractive for people, for lawyers one way around to see how it works out.

571
00:48:12,540 --> 00:48:15,180
They're going to move on. They've got their own bills running so long.

572
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:17,760
Sure. Thank you, sir.

573
00:48:18,980 --> 00:48:19,760
Is there wrong?

574
00:48:21,060 --> 00:48:23,200
I swore I wasn't going to say anything, so I apologize.

575
00:48:23,780 --> 00:48:26,560
Well, then why even be here? We need input.

576
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:33,700
Judge Stevenson once said when I had gone to question a witness, I said,

577
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,660
I have no questions. He said, that's the most eloquent you've been.

578
00:48:36,820 --> 00:48:38,920
So anyway, I'm going to be less than eloquent.

579
00:48:39,140 --> 00:48:42,820
But I do want to address the issue of the competency.

580
00:48:42,820 --> 00:48:49,640
I was appointed by the state bar to be on the board of this organization 12 years ago,

581
00:48:49,980 --> 00:48:52,060
and can't quite get off.

582
00:48:53,080 --> 00:49:01,020
But the lawyers that they attract out of law school are absolutely outstanding.

583
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:08,120
They are dedicated, they are to helping people out.

584
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:16,460
they stay on. And I'm not exaggerating, probably this year we hired people from Harvard, you

585
00:49:17,660 --> 00:49:26,200
know, Berkeley, you know, across the United States, UT, very competent people. What attracts

586
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:36,720
them is the type of work that they want to help these citizens out. But also, we have

587
00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:42,480
a program of loan forgiveness. If you're with the program for two years, your student

588
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:48,800
loans are forgiven 100%. Even if they're six-figure student loans like was

589
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:54,660
referenced. Yes, I mean we like say we attract people from big name law schools

590
00:49:54,660 --> 00:49:59,160
all across the United States. So what you're going to have is you're going to

591
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:11,840
have some good local lawyers and combined with these really brilliant young people who are

592
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:17,540
going to be brought to this community. So I don't think you're going to see a downturn

593
00:50:17,540 --> 00:50:22,000
and in fact I think the district judges will tell you there's no such thing or it hasn't

594
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:28,240
happened yet. So I wouldn't be concerned about the quality of representation that these

595
00:50:28,240 --> 00:50:35,840
people are going to do. And what a quality lawyer will do, and I know the DA will agree

596
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:39,820
with me, I'd much rather have a qualified lawyer on the other side than one who's not

597
00:50:39,820 --> 00:50:44,460
because you can get things done. So they're going to have qualified people who will be

598
00:50:44,460 --> 00:50:50,360
able to move these cases, feed the ones they need to, try the ones they need to, but

599
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,880
you're going to have competency. Not that you don't have it now, but you don't

600
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,960
have to have a fear of incompetency because you're going to have good people down here.

601
00:50:58,580 --> 00:51:05,940
And hopefully after a few years, they will move on and be members of this community.

602
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:11,080
But I think the longevity is just not there, just because of the way of this type of people

603
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,440
they recruit and the structure of the long-forget.

604
00:51:13,740 --> 00:51:16,160
So I think you're in good shape there.

605
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,280
So I'm trying to take up the time.

606
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:19,280
Oh, no problem.

607
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:20,200
Thank you for that, Ron.

608
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:21,020
Appreciate it.

609
00:51:21,700 --> 00:51:28,600
I would just mention that in addition to the loan forgiveness thing, we start off at 60%

610
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:34,640
in the first 12 months and 80% of their student loans in the second year, and then it goes

611
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:35,860
to 100%.

612
00:51:36,420 --> 00:51:39,980
TRLA has been shouldering that cost for the defender program.

613
00:51:42,100 --> 00:51:46,360
No cost to you or no cost to the state and counties.

614
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:51,280
We're trying to work with TIDC to see if we can't shift some of that cost because it's

615
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:55,800
been a little under $200,000 a year that we take on.

616
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:02,260
On the civil side of our program, we have the same kind of job benefit.

617
00:52:03,260 --> 00:52:10,020
But there are a lot of alternatives through the state and through other sources for that

618
00:52:10,020 --> 00:52:10,980
kind of loan forgiveness.

619
00:52:11,720 --> 00:52:14,660
On the criminal side of the docket, there isn't.

620
00:52:14,660 --> 00:52:18,720
So, we've continued that for our public defender lawyers.

621
00:52:20,060 --> 00:52:29,160
We start salaries at $50,000 after you've been licensed, and it goes up from there to

622
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:35,580
about $75,000, though most of the people with experience are in some kind of a leadership

623
00:52:35,580 --> 00:52:38,640
role that pays higher salaries than that.

624
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:46,240
But if you're being paid $50,000, $52,000 in the second year plus loan forgiveness,

625
00:52:46,940 --> 00:52:53,920
many of those are making $60,000 to $70,000 in effect because of the loan forgiveness operation.

626
00:52:54,460 --> 00:53:01,400
And that helps explain why our turnover program-wide is around 10% or 11% a year.

627
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:03,240
So it's pretty small.

628
00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:11,840
How does that compare to, I mean, that doesn't seem terribly high, given, I mean, what's

629
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:13,060
the basis for comparison?

630
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,460
What's the typical DA's office?

631
00:53:16,420 --> 00:53:17,140
I don't know.

632
00:53:17,620 --> 00:53:18,380
It depends on who you are.

633
00:53:18,380 --> 00:53:21,780
Well, we've had transitions, but I know, not us now.

634
00:53:21,980 --> 00:53:24,840
There's been leadership changes, but just in general, what?

635
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:26,780
I don't know that number.

636
00:53:27,140 --> 00:53:27,580
Okay.

637
00:53:27,580 --> 00:53:33,080
We looked at, did a comparison for a different program about a year and a half ago.

638
00:53:33,240 --> 00:53:37,560
Just to give you just a very high level overview, we looked at salaries for county attorneys,

639
00:53:37,860 --> 00:53:42,460
assistant district attorneys, and there's a pretty big range, but, you know, one thing

640
00:53:42,460 --> 00:53:46,900
to bear in mind is that those salaries come with, in most cases, a county pension, good

641
00:53:46,900 --> 00:53:53,520
benefits, packaged healthcare, they range from 50,000 or so for assistant county

642
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:59,240
attorney handling misdemeanors, which is kind of on par with this kind of budget.

643
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:05,120
People handling felonies in district attorney's offices in the 70s was pretty difficult.

644
00:54:05,540 --> 00:54:08,720
You go to the big sales, it goes up quite a bit.

645
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:11,940
The salary structure definitely changes in urban counties.

646
00:54:12,720 --> 00:54:19,060
But, you know, 50s and 70s for misdemeanor and felony attorneys is kind of the ballpark of what we saw

647
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,740
with a lot of variation kind of things.

648
00:54:23,580 --> 00:54:24,720
Okay, okay.

649
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:27,400
I'm kind of shooting from the hip,

650
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:29,560
but isn't alone forgiveness kind of standard

651
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:30,760
in a lot of larger firms?

652
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:33,160
I'm just...

653
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:34,480
I never was in a large...

654
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:36,680
I don't know of any in Victoria who would offer that.

655
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:38,500
Brian, do you don't hear that?

656
00:54:50,060 --> 00:54:50,860
I don't...

657
00:54:51,700 --> 00:54:58,180
Right, my daughter-in-law's with A.C. McGuffin. I'm going to tell you as long as I get it

658
00:54:58,180 --> 00:54:58,700
to stay true.

659
00:54:59,660 --> 00:55:02,940
Maybe they got their lungs forgiven, but you're still sending a check.

660
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:09,620
They're making plenty of money. I'm not sending money. I think it's built into the salary

661
00:55:09,620 --> 00:55:10,040
package.

662
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:17,820
Well, a few things I'll point out. The concerns, the issues brought up are very

663
00:55:17,820 --> 00:55:23,700
legitimate in their things that we need to have a grasp a grasp on as far as the

664
00:55:23,700 --> 00:55:31,700
impact I guess big picture from my point of view if we were reasonably confident

665
00:55:31,700 --> 00:55:40,760
that in this arrangement we could save 250 or so thousand a year I think it

666
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:44,620
would be something that we would need to seriously consider there are some

667
00:55:44,620 --> 00:55:53,820
non-financial negatives, some non-financial perks, but it would need to make sense from

668
00:55:53,820 --> 00:55:58,820
a financial point of view with a margin of error built into there to make it doable.

669
00:55:59,100 --> 00:56:07,120
I think the bigger items pushing that's cost savings one direction or the other is

670
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:15,860
our high co-defendant rate, which will still cause us to need to maintain a private attorney

671
00:56:15,860 --> 00:56:19,560
wheel where we'll pay probably $200,000 a year or so.

672
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:25,440
Granted, that wheel may be harder to man, given folks getting out of the business, moving

673
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:26,000
on, whatever.

674
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:27,500
That's one item.

675
00:56:28,020 --> 00:56:32,660
The second item I think may already be accounted for in these numbers, and that was early

676
00:56:32,660 --> 00:56:40,520
on my questions as to how we can make this offer better given the fact that we have a

677
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:45,000
pretrial service office doing a lot of these things that y'all would ordinarily do. It

678
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,420
looks like that's already been built into the equation.

679
00:56:49,500 --> 00:56:51,040
Other factors that were brought

680
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:56,980
up, the DA's comment about our costs are going to be trending lower.

681
00:56:59,220 --> 00:57:00,340
No doubt we'll

682
00:57:00,340 --> 00:57:05,700
see that, but you base your estimates on a three-year average.

683
00:57:06,820 --> 00:57:17,040
So even if we had a 40% reduction in the first year, the impact on our total expense, considering

684
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:20,320
a three-year average, I don't know if it would kill the deal.

685
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:28,100
We would still realize, presumably, some of those cost savings in y'all's estimate

686
00:57:28,100 --> 00:57:31,200
as far as the staffing that you need in future years.

687
00:57:32,940 --> 00:57:38,080
One thing too we haven't brought up, in the proposal you've given us, and in the price

688
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:44,000
tag you've given us, it has a rental office space of nearly $50,000.

689
00:57:45,300 --> 00:57:51,740
We're about to close a deal on some real estate which would give the county ample

690
00:57:51,740 --> 00:57:58,520
office space to house these folks, both from Victoria as well as surrounding areas, whether

691
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:05,600
that could be set up as an in-kind allowance in the fee amount or, you know, could give

692
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:07,220
us a rental payment.

693
00:58:07,900 --> 00:58:13,640
I mean that's an area there where I think could be built into the deal to make it work.

694
00:58:15,220 --> 00:58:19,080
Another consideration I know I've talked to some other counties, neighboring counties

695
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:24,760
companies of ours who are kind of looking to us to see what we do before they decide what

696
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:25,420
they do.

697
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:32,180
It would seem that an economy of scale, if there were others that joined, perhaps that

698
00:58:32,180 --> 00:58:36,940
could be built into this also, further increasing our cost savings.

699
00:58:38,660 --> 00:58:46,200
So those are a few dynamics that are not certain, but we, I think, need to explore

700
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:52,260
them to come to a number, a cost savings number that we're pretty confident we could realize.

701
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:57,860
Then from the vantage point of the court, well I guess from y'all's perspective we still

702
00:58:57,860 --> 00:59:06,320
haven't figured it out yet, but if we could get a $250,000, $300,000 annual cost savings

703
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:10,860
through this arrangement, what would be your thoughts on that?

704
00:59:11,460 --> 00:59:13,300
I want to talk to the other judges.

705
00:59:14,060 --> 00:59:16,800
I mean, we don't have very much information

706
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:19,540
till just now, which I question.

707
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:24,240
And I want to talk to the judges and other attorneys,

708
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:27,280
although I really respect what our DA said.

709
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,800
I put a lot of weight in her opinion.

710
00:59:33,660 --> 00:59:36,260
And it's nice to be able to do that, by the way.

711
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,300
But I'd like to talk to some people.

712
00:59:40,300 --> 00:59:41,940
Well, I know we need to do it in a hurry, too.

713
00:59:43,340 --> 00:59:45,580
I wouldn't say we're in an extreme hurry.

714
00:59:46,260 --> 00:59:49,340
We would need to turn in basically an intent application

715
00:59:49,340 --> 00:59:52,360
by the 10th, but that wouldn't obligate us.

716
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:54,160
Actually, I think it's a full application.

717
00:59:54,700 --> 00:59:56,320
It's a full application.

718
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:59,980
And I guess my point earlier was, if the budget is the

719
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:10,040
The budget and scope questions are still outstanding. You can note that in the application, and we won't finalize it or present it to our board until you're ready to move forward.

720
01:00:10,420 --> 01:00:18,100
As long as there's some, I guess the main deadline is to have some kind of request in the offer with provisional numbers, if you will, working numbers.

721
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:25,880
And that will give us the opportunity, and you all, the opportunity to refine the request, budget, etc.

722
01:00:27,900 --> 01:00:32,600
And Commissioner, you'll certainly be good to talk to the judges.

723
01:00:32,980 --> 01:00:35,920
I know they've been eager to talk about this.

724
01:00:36,860 --> 01:00:40,960
The district judges seem to be supportive, the county court of law judges.

725
01:00:41,860 --> 01:00:44,700
Probably not, but that would be smart.

726
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:51,000
And as I've mentioned, we aren't and don't need to make a decision on this today.

727
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:58,420
The bigger picture question I think, well, that I'm trying to answer is what can we anticipate

728
01:00:58,420 --> 01:01:03,360
as far as the cost savings that we're pretty sure we could actually get?

729
01:01:03,860 --> 01:01:06,340
Making sure our assumptions in all this are correct.

730
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:12,040
Maybe it would be helpful if I walked you through the changes that I made since the

731
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:19,580
previous numbers you saw, which I think were around $315,000 in savings at 50% state

732
01:01:19,580 --> 01:01:19,960
funding.

733
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:32,380
I was attempting to get more precise numbers on the conflicts ratios from the pretrial

734
01:01:32,380 --> 01:01:38,940
services in the district attorney's office, but it was not successful in that. So what

735
01:01:38,940 --> 01:01:47,260
I did for the purposes of this study was to double the experience ratio on conflicts

736
01:01:47,260 --> 01:01:54,600
that we had in Starr County. So to do that as simply as possible on this thing, I reduced

737
01:01:54,600 --> 01:02:01,840
the percentage of cases that are allocated to the public defender program by 10 percent

738
01:02:03,620 --> 01:02:09,740
as a substitute for a conflicts ratio. Is that a sufficient reduction? Norah, we had

739
01:02:09,740 --> 01:02:20,940
about a what a twenty five percent twenty five to thirty percent. Okay. Yeah. Those numbers

740
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:28,020
give me a lot of discomfort because that's not anything like what we've experienced

741
01:02:28,020 --> 01:02:34,440
elsewhere and I don't know what between Victor there's a fair amount of criminal activity

742
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:35,360
in Star County.

743
01:02:37,020 --> 01:02:37,440
I've heard.

744
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:38,460
So you've heard.

745
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:46,200
Real grand city on the border, just upriver from McAllen.

746
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:54,500
So that's the history that I'm looking at is kind of a benchmark here.

747
01:02:55,640 --> 01:03:01,760
Our actual conflict ratio, based upon the numbers that we have actually interviewed

748
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:10,800
people that identified a conflict was 0.6 percent, less than 1 percent. Now that excludes people

749
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:21,520
who were conflicted out because without us doing an interview of them. So we've done

750
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:28,600
estimates that not based on data but estimates. And I don't know whether that's what Nora's

751
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:35,640
numbers are based on or how we're getting to those numbers, but 10 to 12% is what I'm

752
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:42,700
told is the actual conflict, if you will, but an estimated rather than a derived number

753
01:03:42,700 --> 01:03:44,340
based on actual interviews.

754
01:03:47,100 --> 01:03:55,080
So to jump from 0.6% to 30% seems to me to be unrealistic.

755
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:56,780
Wait, 0.6%?

756
01:03:57,120 --> 01:03:58,100
0.6%.

757
01:03:58,100 --> 01:03:59,640
Oh, I thought we were around 10%.

758
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:00,440
What did I miss?

759
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:05,380
The difference between people that we have actually interviewed

760
01:04:05,380 --> 01:04:08,440
and identified a conflict is a,

761
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:11,360
I think there were like 17 last year

762
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:13,460
that we actually interviewed

763
01:04:13,460 --> 01:04:15,240
and we went through a conflicts check

764
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:17,260
and we said, we've got a conflict here.

765
01:04:18,300 --> 01:04:23,320
As opposed to people who we never interviewed.

766
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:32,900
They went to a bondsman, for example, and the bondsman said, well, this is a group

767
01:04:32,900 --> 01:04:38,520
case, TRLA is only going to take one of them, don't bother to go over there.

768
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:46,700
So there are a fair number of people we think who were never interviewed by TRLA and therefore

769
01:04:46,700 --> 01:04:48,540
never got into our system.

770
01:04:48,540 --> 01:04:54,580
system. So the ones that got into our system is meniscus, and we've identified as a conflict.

771
01:04:54,780 --> 01:05:02,820
Those that were never interviewed is a substantially larger number. We're estimating about 10 times

772
01:05:02,820 --> 01:05:08,680
the number that we actually saw. So that's the reason for the disparity in the numbers.

773
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:14,580
I'm much more comfortable if we've interviewed somebody and identified a conflict because

774
01:05:14,580 --> 01:05:18,220
We have systems in place for doing those conflicts checks.

775
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:26,260
It's not only people who have a group case, co-defendants,

776
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:31,260
but it's also people that we've represented in a previous case.

777
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:36,360
So is that determination, a black-and-white determination, a clear cut,

778
01:05:38,260 --> 01:05:41,520
or y'all have discretion as far as it's a conflict?

779
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:43,760
No, it's not a conflict. How does that work?

780
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:49,760
All lawyers have an obligation to identify conflicts and avoid them.

781
01:05:50,860 --> 01:05:56,940
And so the way it works in our shop, everything is on the computer.

782
01:05:58,220 --> 01:06:05,360
So if the first thing we do is find out the person's name, social security number, we

783
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:12,440
run it through the computer to see if we have represented an opposing party in any

784
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:19,560
previous case, and if we have it comes up as a conflict, and then we either have to resolve

785
01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:27,440
that conflict or we withdraw from further discussions with the client and turn it over

786
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:30,520
to the defender context, turn it over to the wheel.

787
01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:36,600
But we've made a record of that in that sort of situation.

788
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:44,880
But if somebody has been diverted from that system informally, we wouldn't have a record

789
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:45,340
of it.

790
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:49,600
And there are a lot more of those than there are ones that we have a record of.

791
01:06:49,980 --> 01:06:53,980
But I doubt that it's 30 times more, 35 times more.

792
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:58,300
I think it's probably more like 10, 12, 15 times more.

793
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:03,020
Does that include like the family law, Nora, because y'all can't.

794
01:07:03,020 --> 01:07:03,680
That's correct.

795
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:12,080
This doesn't include family law at all, so this doesn't include any civil cases, no CPS,

796
01:07:12,300 --> 01:07:14,100
no attorney, no criminal family law.

797
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:17,240
It's going to only be criminal, misdemeanor, and felony.

798
01:07:17,660 --> 01:07:23,480
So you're still going to have all your expenses on the civil side, along with the expenses at the RLA.

799
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:28,200
Of course, those expenses on the civil side aren't reflected in here.

800
01:07:28,660 --> 01:07:28,940
Correct.

801
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:32,240
So we're going to have those regardless.

802
01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:36,540
Regardless, you're going to have about $300,000 on top of that.

803
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:45,020
Now, see, forgive me that I haven't been able to look at anything she's paid for, right?

804
01:07:45,700 --> 01:07:48,060
OK, but so how about the juveniles?

805
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:49,760
Will y'all also cover juveniles?

806
01:07:49,980 --> 01:07:50,800
Yes, we're covered.

807
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:52,940
And there's proposal of juveniles.

808
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:55,080
I just wanted to add a point of clarification.

809
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:58,560
So whatever the actual rate of the conflict cases is,

810
01:07:58,620 --> 01:07:59,520
and it's been confusing.

811
01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:03,260
I think Nora's got some good data from your systems

812
01:08:03,260 --> 01:08:05,680
that gets x percentage.

813
01:08:06,300 --> 01:08:10,260
And I think it's really a data challenge,

814
01:08:10,340 --> 01:08:12,420
and we just need to sit down and comb all the data

815
01:08:12,420 --> 01:08:14,360
and come up with a number that doesn't make sense

816
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:15,120
to everybody's comfortable with.

817
01:08:15,620 --> 01:08:17,080
I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, David,

818
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:18,920
that when we work with other counties

819
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:21,400
where they contract the TRLA, contract

820
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:24,440
has a kind of, based on our projections,

821
01:08:24,820 --> 01:08:27,480
we will handle this many, up to this many cases.

822
01:08:27,480 --> 01:08:29,980
is that's kind of guaranteed in your contract.

823
01:08:31,440 --> 01:08:35,120
And if it turns out that that number is below,

824
01:08:35,940 --> 01:08:39,440
it is based on an overly conservative assumption

825
01:08:39,440 --> 01:08:42,160
about contracts, then everybody's

826
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:43,640
going to be counting the cases as they come in.

827
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:45,760
That can be addressed at that time.

828
01:08:45,980 --> 01:08:50,180
But I think so whatever the contract that you all

829
01:08:50,180 --> 01:08:56,060
would enter into potentially would have the numbers

830
01:08:56,060 --> 01:09:01,160
but agreed upon numbers, and you wouldn't be obliged to represent people beyond that,

831
01:09:01,340 --> 01:09:03,000
and you wouldn't be obliged to pay them for it.

832
01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:12,440
So if the actual caseload that you undertook was less than that amount, where would that lead us?

833
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:18,200
That would be, I'm assuming that would be adjusted in the next year's contract.

834
01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:23,680
I think it's more likely that they would be, I think you would set the rate for you're

835
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:29,220
comfortable based on perhaps more conservative assumptions, and then if more cases are flowing

836
01:09:29,220 --> 01:09:34,840
in, they would bring that to your attention and talk about the need to adjust the contract.

837
01:09:36,360 --> 01:09:43,700
For example, in Star County, again those three counties, Star, Jim Hogg, and Duvall,

838
01:09:44,620 --> 01:09:50,580
which is kind of, again, comparable to what we're talking about here. We have taken on

839
01:09:50,580 --> 01:09:58,560
in the last year about 17% more cases than what we originally contracted for. And we

840
01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:03,300
haven't been paid for those cases. We took them on anyway because of a sense of obligation.

841
01:10:05,220 --> 01:10:10,980
But we're going to be sitting down with those county judges and revising those numbers

842
01:10:10,980 --> 01:10:14,200
fairly soon, because we can't continue doing that.

843
01:10:14,260 --> 01:10:20,740
And the state's 50% cost share is only on the pre-determined contract amount.

844
01:10:21,180 --> 01:10:25,100
So if we come in 17% over, there's no cost share on that.

845
01:10:25,540 --> 01:10:26,060
Is that correct?

846
01:10:26,440 --> 01:10:27,800
TRLA takes that hit.

847
01:10:28,540 --> 01:10:30,380
Well, in turn, we would take that hit.

848
01:10:30,540 --> 01:10:30,780
No.

849
01:10:31,100 --> 01:10:32,420
TRLA would take that hit.

850
01:10:32,680 --> 01:10:32,960
Okay.

851
01:10:33,260 --> 01:10:35,580
And it would be counted for the next year.

852
01:10:35,700 --> 01:10:39,300
You're signing a fixed contract for a fixed amount.

853
01:10:39,440 --> 01:10:39,700
Okay.

854
01:10:39,700 --> 01:10:44,340
I'm with you. I'm with you. So if we go over it in a year, then

855
01:10:44,340 --> 01:10:50,080
more cases than what we contracted for, that's TRLA's problem. I see. Okay. And if it's less,

856
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:53,940
then we're going to have to adjust it either way, whether it's more or less.

857
01:10:54,300 --> 01:11:00,780
So it's a continuing contractual relationship. And if we have a serious aberration, if,

858
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:08,860
for example, the new district attorney decided that she's only going to indict 20% as many

859
01:11:08,860 --> 01:11:15,760
people as the prior administration, then we're not going to wait for a year for that to get

860
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:20,940
worked out. We're going to get back together again because we want to keep you guys happy.

861
01:11:21,700 --> 01:11:27,500
So we're going to renegotiate the contract whenever you feel the need to renegotiate

862
01:11:27,500 --> 01:11:35,320
the contract. Either side can terminate this contract on 90 days notice. So it's

863
01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:40,700
a continuing kind of relationship, where we work with you on that.

864
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:44,340
How many counties in Texas you're currently in contract with?

865
01:11:44,420 --> 01:11:44,660
Ten.

866
01:11:45,060 --> 01:11:45,260
Ten.

867
01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:53,340
Are there any exclusions within criminal cases like capital, you'll cover capital cases

868
01:11:53,340 --> 01:11:55,980
or some of the bigger stuff that gets really expensive?

869
01:11:56,280 --> 01:12:01,060
We handle capital cases if the death penalty is not saw.

870
01:12:01,060 --> 01:12:09,040
And we've taken on one or two capital cases where death penalty was requested.

871
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:16,200
Those are incredibly expensive and take up an awful lot of time.

872
01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:26,280
So in our contracts, we put an exclusion for those cases unless we agree otherwise with the county.

873
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:34,940
I'm not sure if Victoria County is in the program, but there is a regional public defender

874
01:12:34,940 --> 01:12:37,740
office for capital cases where the death penalty is sought.

875
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:40,740
Programs based in Lubbock, the county is across the state.

876
01:12:41,080 --> 01:12:42,780
Yeah, I think we opted not to do that.

877
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:43,720
We're not in that program.

878
01:12:43,820 --> 01:12:50,420
So that would be the suggestion for protecting yourself against those very large possible

879
01:12:50,420 --> 01:12:54,840
death penalty cases that we offer through our grant assistance.

880
01:12:55,380 --> 01:13:02,140
This would be, I would not think that you should count on, that don't be cases going through this problem.

881
01:13:03,380 --> 01:13:09,080
I mean, I'm kind of ignorant on this point and I've always had questions, how do you determine a true indigent?

882
01:13:09,300 --> 01:13:11,560
Do y'all do that or will the judges do that?

883
01:13:12,380 --> 01:13:21,800
Well, in this case, you have pre-trial services doing that and we can either continue with that sort of arrangement.

884
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:24,760
That's not much of a time killer.

885
01:13:25,380 --> 01:13:31,300
It takes us about six minutes average to make that determination.

886
01:13:31,740 --> 01:13:42,380
We do about 30,000 of those a year at TRLA program-wide, so it's quick and I mean I made

887
01:13:42,380 --> 01:13:54,420
an adjustment in these budget numbers for about .08 FTE of an investigator to cover the

888
01:13:54,420 --> 01:14:04,100
time spent on doing that. So it's not much time, but we can certainly work with Nora's

889
01:14:04,100 --> 01:14:10,340
shop and how we want to divvy up those kinds of responsibilities. In most of our counties,

890
01:14:10,340 --> 01:14:15,720
there is no pre-trial services office. The judges are the ones that have to do that and

891
01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:22,180
they're more than happy to dump that on us, so I've noticed. So we do that typically.

892
01:14:22,580 --> 01:14:26,980
Mr. Burch, just so you know, the county ultimately, county judges ultimately have the responsibility

893
01:14:26,980 --> 01:14:31,960
to determine who qualifies for these services, who's indigent and who's not. And I think

894
01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:35,400
with your county, and it's really to the credit of Victoria County that you have

895
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:37,840
of the pre-trial services in Norris program in place,

896
01:14:38,480 --> 01:14:39,840
they do a good job.

897
01:14:40,300 --> 01:14:44,440
And some of the judges will delegate the authority

898
01:14:44,440 --> 01:14:48,080
to look at, get the financial information from the defendants

899
01:14:48,080 --> 01:14:50,700
and figure out if they're poor enough to deserve

900
01:14:50,700 --> 01:14:51,540
an appointed attorney.

901
01:14:52,300 --> 01:14:54,840
But ultimately, the buck stops with the judges,

902
01:14:55,040 --> 01:14:57,480
and the judges will often delegate that responsibility

903
01:14:57,940 --> 01:14:59,980
either to pre-trial services or in some cases.

904
01:15:02,160 --> 01:15:07,780
Do these numbers reflect keeping our pre-trial services?

905
01:15:08,700 --> 01:15:16,400
What those numbers do is it takes out that six minutes per case of an investigator's time,

906
01:15:16,740 --> 01:15:22,140
and so it reduced the investigator time slightly, very slightly, so yes.

907
01:15:22,140 --> 01:15:32,180
Yes. There's been no discussion about, well, the original proposal called for 17.53 FTEs,

908
01:15:32,300 --> 01:15:39,780
the revised numbers is 16.08. But that was both the dynamic of pretrial and the higher

909
01:15:39,780 --> 01:15:40,900
co-defender. That's correct.

910
01:15:42,140 --> 01:15:43,300
I appreciate

911
01:15:48,390 --> 01:15:52,870
the time that you've given this consideration. David has been talking a lot

912
01:15:52,870 --> 01:15:54,310
out the program in Starr County.

913
01:15:54,510 --> 01:15:55,790
That's a regional program with Starr,

914
01:15:56,050 --> 01:15:58,530
U-Ball, and Jim Hogg County down in Rio Grande Valley.

915
01:15:59,890 --> 01:16:01,970
Because I think it's comfortable and scopey.

916
01:16:02,550 --> 01:16:04,930
The other program that's been in place for a number of years

917
01:16:05,430 --> 01:16:08,630
is based in Bean County, Bean, Livo, McMullen,

918
01:16:09,430 --> 01:16:11,770
you've got at Goliad, Refurio, and La Vaca.

919
01:16:12,590 --> 01:16:13,850
Looking at a couple other counties

920
01:16:13,850 --> 01:16:15,410
that might join that regional program.

921
01:16:17,270 --> 01:16:18,810
Kushner Burns had mentioned wanting

922
01:16:18,810 --> 01:16:21,230
to hear from the judges about this criminal court

923
01:16:21,230 --> 01:16:25,190
judges, and I think that's essential to have those conversations.

924
01:16:25,710 --> 01:16:27,670
I'd also recommend if you have the opportunity

925
01:16:27,670 --> 01:16:30,370
to talk to some of the other either constitutional county

926
01:16:30,370 --> 01:16:32,170
judges that are in some cases the commissioners that

927
01:16:32,170 --> 01:16:33,970
are more involved in those counties.

928
01:16:34,930 --> 01:16:40,150
Again, Lovaca, Goliad, Refurio that have recently joined

929
01:16:40,150 --> 01:16:42,890
generally from what we've been hearing in Austin.

930
01:16:43,290 --> 01:16:45,050
The program is very happy with the program.

931
01:16:45,430 --> 01:16:47,890
So in addition to talking to your own criminal judges,

932
01:16:48,290 --> 01:16:50,490
hearing from some of the other folks that sit in your seats

933
01:16:50,490 --> 01:16:56,190
in neighboring counties is probably helpful in terms of how the program is working for

934
01:16:56,190 --> 01:16:56,370
us.

935
01:16:56,550 --> 01:16:59,190
I just wanted to recommend that as something for the extent that we all have an opportunity

936
01:16:59,190 --> 01:16:59,990
to do it.

937
01:17:00,350 --> 01:17:00,950
Very good.

938
01:17:01,130 --> 01:17:01,770
Thank you, Edwin.

939
01:17:03,250 --> 01:17:05,590
What other questions might jump out here?

940
01:17:05,730 --> 01:17:09,670
I know, and obviously we're not going to vote or decide on anything today.

941
01:17:09,810 --> 01:17:10,890
This is just informational.

942
01:17:13,430 --> 01:17:18,150
Any questions up here or things we need to search further to get the answer to beyond

943
01:17:18,150 --> 01:17:20,650
what what's been previously mentioned?

944
01:17:24,180 --> 01:17:28,160
Judge if I may make a suggestion one of

945
01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:33,640
the things that we've heard and from other counties is that having a defender

946
01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:39,280
program has a positive impact on your jail budget that it reduces the time

947
01:17:39,280 --> 01:17:47,480
people have to sit in jail at 55-60 dollars a day. Star County again did

948
01:17:47,480 --> 01:17:53,620
The auditor's office did such an informal survey last year and came up with a number

949
01:17:53,620 --> 01:17:58,280
of about a half a million dollars that the public defender program they thought were

950
01:17:58,280 --> 01:17:58,840
saved.

951
01:18:00,500 --> 01:18:06,300
I don't know how good that study is, and I haven't looked at the underlying data in

952
01:18:06,300 --> 01:18:06,520
it.

953
01:18:07,460 --> 01:18:14,360
But one of the things you've got to do is look at a baseline for before you start

954
01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:20,940
the Defender Program. And what would probably be very helpful both to you

955
01:18:20,940 --> 01:18:26,780
and to us is if we ran that kind of a baseline study here in Victoria and

956
01:18:26,780 --> 01:18:30,580
maybe one or two of the other counties around here that are thinking about

957
01:18:30,580 --> 01:18:38,940
joining Jackson Calhoun, running that kind of a study to see whether there

958
01:18:38,940 --> 01:18:48,920
are material savings and try to isolate the public defender program as being the

959
01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:54,000
factor that causes those savings. Is that something y'all would be interested in

960
01:18:54,000 --> 01:19:00,580
participating in? Seeing the data from these other counties I would yes indeed.

961
01:19:00,840 --> 01:19:00,900
Nora?

962
01:19:04,220 --> 01:19:07,460
In other counties also?

963
01:19:09,240 --> 01:19:09,840
Okay.

964
01:19:12,980 --> 01:19:19,180
Yeah. Okay. I guess we get that. I would be curious to see other counties how it has

965
01:19:19,180 --> 01:19:20,840
affected jail population.

966
01:19:24,100 --> 01:19:27,840
In the whole exercise we're doing here trying to gather this data

967
01:19:27,840 --> 01:19:31,520
that I think would be of use to see. Sure. Okay.

968
01:19:35,360 --> 01:19:37,260
Any further questions up here?

969
01:19:40,340 --> 01:19:40,880
Okay.

970
01:19:40,880 --> 01:19:48,100
Well, I certainly appreciate you all's time this morning and the information you've given

971
01:19:48,100 --> 01:19:48,620
us again.

972
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:57,760
My, I guess, biggest effort is to see how confident we can be with some of these projections,

973
01:19:58,610 --> 01:19:59,940
with some of these estimates.

974
01:20:00,520 --> 01:20:07,100
There are many variables we've got to consider that I guess typically aren't in the counties

975
01:20:07,100 --> 01:20:07,840
y'all are in.

976
01:20:12,190 --> 01:20:18,230
But if it could yield the savings that appear possible, that would be something

977
01:20:18,230 --> 01:20:21,330
the court I think would need to seriously consider.

978
01:20:25,190 --> 01:20:26,910
So what steps do you want to take

979
01:20:26,910 --> 01:20:32,330
on this? Talk to the judges, talk to others, and have it back on the agenda for further

980
01:20:32,330 --> 01:20:38,650
discussion if you want to go that route? Yes, I have one other question. I see you

981
01:20:38,650 --> 01:20:46,550
we're finally on travel. Who regulates that travel and the expenses on that travel? Because

982
01:20:46,550 --> 01:20:55,450
I mean, if it's a trial somewhere else, are here, and so I just, how would that work?

983
01:20:55,970 --> 01:21:02,460
Well, we have internal procedures, and the first person that would be responsible for

984
01:21:02,460 --> 01:21:08,160
reviewing it would be the chief defender in the office here in Victoria would

985
01:21:08,160 --> 01:21:13,660
know who the what the cases are set in which counties which county is

986
01:21:13,660 --> 01:21:20,200
responsible for the travel and would verify that that it's a it's a legitimate

987
01:21:20,200 --> 01:21:24,760
expense and it's reasonable and necessary then it would go to our

988
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:30,820
accounting office and would be reviewed there and usually by the director of

989
01:21:30,820 --> 01:21:33,240
administration, and the central office.

990
01:21:34,080 --> 01:21:36,880
Because, and it depends on where the attorney came from.

991
01:21:37,260 --> 01:21:39,180
Would we pay the travel for the attorney

992
01:21:39,180 --> 01:21:41,420
to come down to Victoria to hear a case

993
01:21:41,420 --> 01:21:42,360
that the attorney was a local?

994
01:21:43,120 --> 01:21:43,340
No.

995
01:21:43,860 --> 01:21:45,600
I think most of the travel, that would be,

996
01:21:46,740 --> 01:21:49,000
expenses that would be incurred in this type of a program.

997
01:21:49,440 --> 01:21:51,940
So there's a staff investigator in the,

998
01:21:52,160 --> 01:21:54,760
in the, what's going to be going out to crime scenes

999
01:21:54,760 --> 01:21:55,820
and gathering evidence.

1000
01:21:56,240 --> 01:21:58,440
That person, that's probably going to file some mileage

1001
01:21:58,440 --> 01:22:01,580
for their use of personal vehicle because TRLA does not

1002
01:22:01,580 --> 01:22:03,320
operate at each other vehicles and whatnot.

1003
01:22:03,700 --> 01:22:06,900
So it's more of the kind of local mileage expenses

1004
01:22:06,900 --> 01:22:10,400
for things like an investigator following up on facts,

1005
01:22:10,540 --> 01:22:12,740
maybe going to get records or interviewing a witness,

1006
01:22:13,120 --> 01:22:14,120
things like that.

1007
01:22:15,180 --> 01:22:19,020
I know that also one of the things that TRLA has been

1008
01:22:19,020 --> 01:22:22,100
good about is providing training for their staff.

1009
01:22:22,420 --> 01:22:24,640
So I think that maybe part of that, maybe that's

1010
01:22:24,640 --> 01:22:27,700
in the training budget I made that just kind of built

1011
01:22:27,700 --> 01:22:29,340
into the general operation.

1012
01:22:29,780 --> 01:22:32,340
But there might be some travel.

1013
01:22:32,500 --> 01:22:35,200
But it's all going to be going, as opposed

1014
01:22:35,200 --> 01:22:37,780
to the county getting a claim for travel,

1015
01:22:38,040 --> 01:22:40,680
as oversight would be provided through their administrative

1016
01:22:40,680 --> 01:22:42,360
procedures under the contract.

1017
01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:44,480
But I think it's more local travel

1018
01:22:44,480 --> 01:22:46,980
and mileage would be considered, as opposed

1019
01:22:46,980 --> 01:22:49,940
to bringing people in to Victoria from outside of Victoria.

1020
01:22:50,100 --> 01:22:51,000
I don't think that's what's going to happen.

1021
01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:54,360
Okay, but you used the word, the subjective word, think.

1022
01:22:55,400 --> 01:22:59,340
Okay, is, you know, is it or isn't?

1023
01:22:59,440 --> 01:23:04,600
That travel, if it's just traveling to Victoria and not bringing an attorney from the outside to drive in,

1024
01:23:04,940 --> 01:23:09,240
because, you know, if they don't live locally, then they're driving, they're getting travel time,

1025
01:23:09,540 --> 01:23:11,300
and it's going to, and we're still paying for the travel time.

1026
01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:18,220
Right, you know, the way it would work, I mean, what most of that travel involves

1027
01:23:18,220 --> 01:23:21,880
is going from Victoria to Edna and back.

1028
01:23:22,360 --> 01:23:25,720
All the lawyers, if we do a regional kind of configuration,

1029
01:23:26,260 --> 01:23:30,340
which we've been talking about doing with Jackson Calhoun and DeWitt counties,

1030
01:23:30,640 --> 01:23:34,020
plus Referio and Goliath, all the counties that are in

1031
01:23:34,020 --> 01:23:38,280
the 24th Judicial District, Victoria would be

1032
01:23:38,280 --> 01:23:42,120
the hub, and all the lawyers would be here in Victoria.

1033
01:23:42,640 --> 01:23:46,100
And they would drive out to wherever Judge Maher

1034
01:23:46,100 --> 01:23:50,400
is holding court. Okay, and that's what you were referring to. Yeah, right. Okay, I understand.

1035
01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:57,640
So, but ideally, hopefully, if we do the budget the way we would normally do, we would have

1036
01:23:57,640 --> 01:24:05,420
an investigator out in Edna who lives in Edna. And she would be traveling locally

1037
01:24:05,420 --> 01:24:11,280
within Jackson County, handling their cases locally, interviewing witnesses, interviewing

1038
01:24:11,280 --> 01:24:16,480
clients and that kind of thing. And then periodically drive into Victoria for

1039
01:24:16,480 --> 01:24:21,680
staff meetings and that sort of thing. That kind of travel would be Jackson

1040
01:24:21,680 --> 01:24:28,440
County's budget, not Victoria County. One other question is, let's say I'm an

1041
01:24:28,440 --> 01:24:33,580
attorney, I've been practicing for 30 years and I join y'all, then I can I get

1042
01:24:33,580 --> 01:24:38,880
my own cases? So there is a state law that says that if you work for a

1043
01:24:38,880 --> 01:24:42,760
public defender, you're not supposed to take criminal cases

1044
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:45,800
on the side, but you can operate a civil practice as much

1045
01:24:45,800 --> 01:24:46,340
as you'd like.

1046
01:24:47,000 --> 01:24:51,520
That's so that you don't have the conflict of, you know,

1047
01:24:51,640 --> 01:24:53,640
get, that would set up some incentives

1048
01:24:53,640 --> 01:24:56,760
where your private paying criminal clients

1049
01:24:56,760 --> 01:25:00,440
are kind of competing with the public.

1050
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:06,200
Now, I think the policy for TRLA is no moonlight.

1051
01:25:06,200 --> 01:25:08,540
and you have full-time attorneys?

1052
01:25:08,940 --> 01:25:09,900
That's generally it.

1053
01:25:10,040 --> 01:25:13,260
I mean, we do have some part-time lawyers that

1054
01:25:13,260 --> 01:25:16,340
have a side practice.

1055
01:25:16,680 --> 01:25:22,440
But that's quite the exception, probably 5% of the lawyers.

1056
01:25:22,840 --> 01:25:23,440
OK, thank you.

1057
01:25:23,960 --> 01:25:27,400
I'm not advocating not saving $250,000.

1058
01:25:27,840 --> 01:25:30,660
But if we wait on this a year to see how the new numbers

1059
01:25:30,660 --> 01:25:33,980
come out, is that any kind of black mark

1060
01:25:33,980 --> 01:25:36,820
or put us at the bottom of the list, whatever?

1061
01:25:37,320 --> 01:25:38,440
I would say it's black mark.

1062
01:25:38,740 --> 01:25:40,460
I mean, I guess my suggestion would

1063
01:25:40,460 --> 01:25:43,520
be to sit down with your district attorney

1064
01:25:43,520 --> 01:25:48,560
and other stakeholders and just map out based on,

1065
01:25:48,820 --> 01:25:50,580
I mean, I guess you've got a few months

1066
01:25:50,580 --> 01:25:54,180
in of the new administration.

1067
01:25:55,240 --> 01:25:56,780
I mean, you could certainly do this.

1068
01:25:56,920 --> 01:25:58,720
I mean, I don't want to leave the impression

1069
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:00,720
that the window will close forever or be.

1070
01:26:00,860 --> 01:26:02,340
That's kind of what I was getting at.

1071
01:26:02,340 --> 01:26:05,620
But I'm just you know how to word it. Well, I guess let me ask this.

1072
01:26:06,160 --> 01:26:11,380
If I know we can in our contracts at the max threshold of cases.

1073
01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:23,380
We could build into our assumption of whatever percent decline and lower that max amount and have that reflected in the contract amount.

1074
01:26:23,720 --> 01:26:27,820
I presume is that may be doable.

1075
01:26:27,820 --> 01:26:33,360
So I can tell you that the counties that we've worked with in partnership with

1076
01:26:33,360 --> 01:26:38,780
TRLA, the new public defenders, have basically said all non-conflict cases go

1077
01:26:38,780 --> 01:26:43,940
to their program just for simplicity and conflict cases and the family law cases

1078
01:26:43,940 --> 01:26:49,760
both outside the program. Some counties in Texas have public defenders. I believe

1079
01:26:49,760 --> 01:26:55,960
Kauffman is one example of North Texas where Kauffman County operates a

1080
01:26:55,960 --> 01:26:58,300
public defender directly, county staff, attorneys,

1081
01:26:59,080 --> 01:27:02,780
and investigators, where they only take, I believe, 50,

1082
01:27:03,560 --> 01:27:06,500
every other case or two-thirds of the cases.

1083
01:27:06,840 --> 01:27:10,280
So you can choose to set the scope of the program

1084
01:27:10,900 --> 01:27:12,820
at any level that you decide.

1085
01:27:13,700 --> 01:27:16,480
I think from what we've heard from TRLA,

1086
01:27:17,200 --> 01:27:18,760
the economy is, of course, the savings

1087
01:27:18,760 --> 01:27:22,640
is going to be pegged to the percentage of the cases

1088
01:27:22,640 --> 01:27:23,560
that go to the program.

1089
01:27:23,560 --> 01:27:30,600
But the scope of a program like this is ultimately what you decide you want to do.

1090
01:27:31,220 --> 01:27:36,520
I think that the level of savings is going to be impacted by that.

1091
01:27:36,740 --> 01:27:43,960
And I think that, you know, as I said, your program typically has operated on the assumption

1092
01:27:43,960 --> 01:27:49,880
that they're covering the lion's share of the cases just for cohesiveness and simplicity.

1093
01:27:51,700 --> 01:27:52,680
We're flexible.

1094
01:27:53,380 --> 01:27:54,720
Okay, very good.

1095
01:27:54,840 --> 01:27:56,400
I saw Judge Gillum walk in.

1096
01:27:57,960 --> 01:27:59,240
Any thoughts, Judge?

1097
01:27:59,480 --> 01:28:01,960
I know you've looked at this somewhat previously.

1098
01:28:04,340 --> 01:28:07,380
Well, and I don't know what all was said this morning.

1099
01:28:07,580 --> 01:28:13,420
I guess the only comment that I was thinking about

1100
01:28:13,420 --> 01:28:17,700
is that I know we have a new administration in the DA's office,

1101
01:28:17,700 --> 01:28:21,020
And I didn't know on the economics of it,

1102
01:28:21,040 --> 01:28:24,660
you shouldn't let that work out like another year or so at least

1103
01:28:24,660 --> 01:28:27,780
and see where we're at then because then,

1104
01:28:28,420 --> 01:28:30,580
because I do think there's going to be a change there

1105
01:28:30,580 --> 01:28:34,760
and maybe given that time, you may not,

1106
01:28:35,040 --> 01:28:38,300
you may see a reduction at that point, you know,

1107
01:28:38,460 --> 01:28:43,020
and I don't know, again, I haven't actually worked

1108
01:28:43,020 --> 01:28:47,140
in numbers but it seems like depending on where you're at

1109
01:28:47,140 --> 01:28:51,000
at that point, it may not be as economically feasible

1110
01:28:51,000 --> 01:28:54,300
as you might think it would be down the line.

1111
01:28:54,520 --> 01:28:57,420
Because I mean, let's say it reduces down to,

1112
01:28:58,140 --> 01:29:00,200
I mean, we're spending, what, about a million dollars

1113
01:29:00,200 --> 01:29:03,800
on attorney fees right now.

1114
01:29:04,100 --> 01:29:07,340
And if you reduce that down to about 750,000,

1115
01:29:07,480 --> 01:29:10,940
and I realize the big thing that makes this thing,

1116
01:29:11,280 --> 01:29:15,340
I guess, economically feasible is the grants

1117
01:29:15,340 --> 01:29:23,420
that are part of that. I understand that too. But I don't know where that's headed if that's

1118
01:29:23,420 --> 01:29:28,820
going to be there forever or not. And I know there was a dissenting order on that. What is

1119
01:29:28,820 --> 01:29:31,200
it? How much is it for the first year? I don't remember.

1120
01:29:31,280 --> 01:29:31,920
80 percent.

1121
01:29:32,120 --> 01:29:32,780
It's 80 percent.

1122
01:29:33,020 --> 01:29:34,340
It is 40 percent.

1123
01:29:35,200 --> 01:29:36,940
No, 80, 60, 50.

1124
01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:39,340
I mean, assuming it keeps going.

1125
01:29:39,960 --> 01:29:46,400
Okay, so 86. That was my only thought, is if you let it out, let it maybe pan out like

1126
01:29:46,400 --> 01:29:51,080
at least a year, maybe even a year and a half, something like that, and see where we're

1127
01:29:51,080 --> 01:29:55,660
really at at that point, and then you may be able to make a better decision.

1128
01:29:56,300 --> 01:29:58,940
Maybe I hope that was a better number.

1129
01:30:01,140 --> 01:30:08,420
That was my question. Thank you, Judge. All right, any other comments? May I make one remark?

1130
01:30:09,620 --> 01:30:17,160
One thing you might consider if, you know, Judge Gillum has, I think, got a valid point.

1131
01:30:18,200 --> 01:30:23,820
You might think about reviewing rather than annually reviewing these numbers quarterly.

1132
01:30:25,280 --> 01:30:30,420
That's probably not too much of an administrative burden for everybody. But if there are some

1133
01:30:30,420 --> 01:30:37,380
dramatic changes rather than forego $7,800,000 of savings in the next fiscal year.

1134
01:30:39,880 --> 01:30:40,860
Go ahead

1135
01:30:40,860 --> 01:30:48,340
and opt into the program, start those savings running, and then if you don't like the numbers

1136
01:30:48,340 --> 01:30:55,220
you're seeing, we make adjustments as we go, but do it on a quarterly basis. See what

1137
01:30:55,220 --> 01:31:01,180
plays out. Did I hear right that y'all are presently in about 10 counties? That's correct.

1138
01:31:01,800 --> 01:31:08,920
The thought I have is let's assume that they continue to cover more and more counties, which I think is pretty accurate.

1139
01:31:09,920 --> 01:31:18,980
And then if we get to where the phones are covering maybe 30 counties, 40 counties, 50, 60, half the state, I don't know.

1140
01:31:19,660 --> 01:31:22,820
My question would be, and I don't have the answer to it,

1141
01:31:23,740 --> 01:31:30,000
will the state then be quite so willing to pay a 50% grant

1142
01:31:30,000 --> 01:31:33,260
to half the counties in the state of Texas?

1143
01:31:34,280 --> 01:31:38,360
At a certain point, that number is going to get too large,

1144
01:31:38,600 --> 01:31:40,060
and somebody in Austin is going to say,

1145
01:31:40,140 --> 01:31:42,320
look, you can't do it anymore.

1146
01:31:42,580 --> 01:31:45,800
So it almost seems as the organization moves

1147
01:31:45,800 --> 01:31:52,780
It becomes more successful, ultimately, that number, that grant percentage, although that's

1148
01:31:52,780 --> 01:31:54,240
the content that would be part

1149
01:31:57,210 --> 01:31:57,470
of it.

1150
01:31:57,470 --> 01:31:58,050
Thank you, sir.

1151
01:31:58,250 --> 01:31:58,690
Other thoughts?

1152
01:31:58,910 --> 01:31:59,690
I want to speak a little bit to that.

1153
01:32:01,330 --> 01:32:06,810
So, TIDC does not have a very long list of counties that are interested in stepping

1154
01:32:06,810 --> 01:32:08,250
up to do this kind of a program.

1155
01:32:09,510 --> 01:32:12,490
Senator Colcours has introduced a bill that's currently pending in legislature.

1156
01:32:12,730 --> 01:32:15,830
In fact, I think the hearing is coming up maybe this week, sometimes.

1157
01:32:16,550 --> 01:32:25,130
that is really as a way for the state to provide assistance more targeted toward smaller counties

1158
01:32:25,130 --> 01:32:31,790
or rural counties or under 100,000, has directed us to, the bill would direct us to prioritize

1159
01:32:31,790 --> 01:32:38,650
these kinds of programs in our funding. I think that when our commission reviews grants requests

1160
01:32:38,650 --> 01:32:42,870
in counties that are interested in this kind of program, they're keenly aware of the

1161
01:32:42,870 --> 01:32:47,910
available resources and have never overextended themselves so to be a thing on how much they have.

1162
01:32:48,310 --> 01:32:56,410
So I don't think that there's any substantial risk of the commission being overwhelmed by

1163
01:32:56,410 --> 01:33:00,790
requests for counties to implement programs that the commission can't comply with.

1164
01:33:01,350 --> 01:33:06,690
In terms of the likelihood of the 50 percent sustainability fund being there for the county

1165
01:33:06,690 --> 01:33:11,650
down the road, the legislature adopts a budget every two years. They owned off the budget

1166
01:33:11,650 --> 01:33:19,770
10 years out. But our budget at TIDC for next year, for the next biennium, is

1167
01:33:19,770 --> 01:33:27,070
they're adding $18 million in the baseline budget for our program, which the

1168
01:33:27,070 --> 01:33:32,070
Commission is prioritizing for these types of programs. So I think that the

1169
01:33:32,070 --> 01:33:36,790
there's a reasonable expectation that the sustainability funding which has been

1170
01:33:43,890 --> 01:33:52,490
I can't make any promises on behalf of the Texas Legislature, but I can say that our budget has been stable or grown, and that we have not been overlonged with.

1171
01:33:52,810 --> 01:34:01,770
Got you. Okay. Thank you. All right. Any other comments before we move on? Anybody in the audience that would like to?

1172
01:34:02,550 --> 01:34:07,750
I know y'all've done a ton of work and time in this and we apologize but we

1173
01:34:07,750 --> 01:34:12,430
have to be perceived with caution because it's a lot better to finish this

1174
01:34:12,430 --> 01:34:17,570
jumping into something and then saying oh hell we got to back out that would

1175
01:34:17,570 --> 01:34:23,070
leave a bad taste I would think in the y'alls mind for future funding but

1176
01:34:23,070 --> 01:34:28,270
we from our perspective we want to work with the county for the right kind of

1177
01:34:29,090 --> 01:34:32,650
I don't get any commission on David Hall's contracts or anything.

1178
01:34:33,110 --> 01:34:36,850
They've just been a good partner that the commission has seen really good results with.

1179
01:34:37,090 --> 01:34:39,510
So that's why we partner with online order grants.

1180
01:34:41,650 --> 01:34:45,450
The commissioners court is still looking at data.

1181
01:34:45,830 --> 01:34:47,410
We want to be a resource for you all.

1182
01:34:47,970 --> 01:34:52,750
I'm sure Mr. Hall would want to continue to work with the numbers to, you know,

1183
01:34:53,030 --> 01:34:55,250
get as accurate a projection as possible.

1184
01:34:55,250 --> 01:35:02,270
But whatever you need, we want to be available for you all as you look at your options and

1185
01:35:02,870 --> 01:35:04,850
let us know how we can get there.

1186
01:35:05,410 --> 01:35:05,830
Wonderful.

1187
01:35:06,170 --> 01:35:10,490
Well, we will, and certainly appreciate you all's time this morning driving in.

1188
01:35:10,810 --> 01:35:13,810
And we would like to see if we can hire a 53-year-old lawyer.

1189
01:35:16,750 --> 01:35:18,110
All right, very good.

1190
01:35:18,190 --> 01:35:19,390
Well, thank you all once again.

1191
01:35:19,590 --> 01:35:20,850
Appreciate you being here.

1192
01:35:21,570 --> 01:35:21,830
Thank you.

1193
01:35:22,110 --> 01:35:24,790
Ron, thanks for stopping by also.

1194
01:35:24,790 --> 01:35:29,910
Well, I won't give a final argument on the floor.

1195
01:35:30,230 --> 01:35:35,390
Still have your contact information or were you.

1196
01:35:35,870 --> 01:35:39,550
OK, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

1197
01:35:46,930 --> 01:35:51,650
Thanks a lot, Constance. Mr. White, thank you, sir, for your comments.

1198
01:35:51,970 --> 01:35:52,530
Judge, thanks.

1199
01:35:55,500 --> 01:35:56,560
All right.

1200
01:35:56,980 --> 01:36:02,840
Well, that on our agenda was simply to hear presentation and discuss, which we've done.

1201
01:36:02,840 --> 01:36:07,360
and we'll continue to do. We don't need to take any action on that. We will move

1202
01:36:07,360 --> 01:36:12,840
on to item number 10. Receive fully executed notice of grant award from

1203
01:36:12,840 --> 01:36:16,500
Rebuild Texas for the purpose of purchasing and renovating property at

1204
01:36:16,500 --> 01:36:21,300
311 East Constitution Street, Victoria, Texas and authorized county judge to

1205
01:36:21,300 --> 01:36:24,800
sign necessary documents and take appropriate action.

1206
01:36:28,450 --> 01:36:29,470
Robin we finally

1207
01:36:29,470 --> 01:36:47,370
got well I guess is this a final step in the in the process okay okay excellent so

1208
01:36:47,370 --> 01:36:52,550
we're simply receiving this is there a motion to do so so move all those in

1209
01:36:52,550 --> 01:37:00,330
favor. All right. Any opposed? Second. Second. Second. Oh, second. So someone seconded.

1210
01:37:00,430 --> 01:37:10,110
All right. All right. Did we do that right? All right. Motion approved. Excellent. Thank

1211
01:37:10,110 --> 01:37:17,650
you, Robin. Let's see. Item number 11. Received notice of law enforcement officer reimbursement

1212
01:37:17,650 --> 01:37:25,190
program, transportation security administration, award modification number P0006, agreement

1213
01:37:25,190 --> 01:37:34,090
number HSTS-02-16-H-SLR930, and take appropriate action.

1214
01:37:35,610 --> 01:37:36,210
Second.

1215
01:37:38,470 --> 01:37:39,550
All those in favor?

1216
01:37:40,190 --> 01:37:40,410
Aye.

1217
01:37:40,990 --> 01:37:41,570
Any opposed?

1218
01:37:42,170 --> 01:37:42,990
Motion approved.

1219
01:37:43,530 --> 01:37:44,650
41,000.

1220
01:37:44,790 --> 01:37:45,570
Robin, what else?

1221
01:37:45,570 --> 01:37:50,450
Oh, now I was just going to, uh, Lenny had to leave. He did make a call. This is a larger

1222
01:37:50,450 --> 01:37:57,030
allocation on this grant than we got last year for that time period. So he made a call, um,

1223
01:37:57,170 --> 01:38:02,270
to TSA and indicated that our flight schedule had increased. And so at least we did, um,

1224
01:38:02,770 --> 01:38:08,590
apparently see an increase after he and I had discussed that. He, um, made some inquiries.

1225
01:38:08,930 --> 01:38:14,210
So hopefully we'll get a little, a little bit more on that in the future as well.

1226
01:38:14,210 --> 01:38:21,150
very good thank you item number 12 ratify rural volunteer fire department

1227
01:38:21,150 --> 01:38:28,270
assistant program grant assistance award case number 2104 and take appropriate

1228
01:38:28,270 --> 01:38:28,790
action

1229
01:38:32,760 --> 01:38:39,980
Richard what have we got here that was on the award for the four

1230
01:38:54,520 --> 01:38:59,100
Okay, thank you Richard all those. Oh, do we have a

1231
01:38:59,100 --> 01:39:05,960
Yeah, a little thing on that. We've already turned in two classes. We've in front of almost 45 people, as far as creating that.

1232
01:39:07,760 --> 01:39:09,240
Excellent. Thank you, Richard.

1233
01:39:10,000 --> 01:39:11,060
Move to ratify.

1234
01:39:11,460 --> 01:39:11,800
Second.

1235
01:39:12,080 --> 01:39:13,060
All those in favor?

1236
01:39:13,500 --> 01:39:13,740
Aye.

1237
01:39:13,980 --> 01:39:14,140
Aye.

1238
01:39:14,320 --> 01:39:14,920
Any opposed?

1239
01:39:15,860 --> 01:39:16,560
Motion approved.

1240
01:39:16,860 --> 01:39:24,920
Item 13, receive annual fire safety inspection report for the Victoria Regional Juvenile Justice Center and take appropriate action.

1241
01:39:25,840 --> 01:39:28,480
Let's see a copy of that report from Richard.

1242
01:39:30,320 --> 01:39:31,240
In your packet.

1243
01:39:31,400 --> 01:39:32,280
Anything on that, Richard?

1244
01:39:33,100 --> 01:39:33,600
No, sir.

1245
01:39:33,780 --> 01:39:34,100
Everything.

1246
01:39:34,520 --> 01:39:38,720
You just did the EVAC system, the fire line system, and that good building.

1247
01:39:39,380 --> 01:39:40,800
They fired her along there.

1248
01:39:40,900 --> 01:39:42,200
They did really well.

1249
01:39:43,480 --> 01:39:45,500
They were at .26, I think.

1250
01:39:46,280 --> 01:39:46,700
They'll do that.

1251
01:39:47,360 --> 01:39:47,820
Okay.

1252
01:39:48,020 --> 01:39:48,420
Thank you.

1253
01:39:48,860 --> 01:39:49,420
Move to receive.

1254
01:39:49,660 --> 01:39:49,940
Second.

1255
01:39:50,160 --> 01:39:50,900
All those in favor?

1256
01:39:51,320 --> 01:39:51,580
Aye.

1257
01:39:51,580 --> 01:39:52,420
Any opposed?

1258
01:39:53,000 --> 01:39:53,800
Motion approved.

1259
01:39:53,800 --> 01:40:01,880
Item 14, consider approval of a contract between Thompson, Reuters, Westlaw and Victoria County

1260
01:40:01,880 --> 01:40:04,640
Criminal District Attorney's Office and take appropriate action.

1261
01:40:06,560 --> 01:40:07,360
Move for approval.

1262
01:40:07,680 --> 01:40:07,860
Second.

1263
01:40:09,460 --> 01:40:10,740
All those in favor?

1264
01:40:11,140 --> 01:40:11,440
Aye.

1265
01:40:11,540 --> 01:40:11,640
Aye.

1266
01:40:12,240 --> 01:40:12,920
Any opposed?

1267
01:40:13,940 --> 01:40:15,180
Motion approved.

1268
01:40:16,200 --> 01:40:22,000
Item number 15, consider approval of letter of request from INAS Volunteer Fire Department

1269
01:40:22,000 --> 01:40:23,840
and take appropriate action.

1270
01:40:27,930 --> 01:40:31,550
Let's see, so this is a request for $5,000.

1271
01:40:35,300 --> 01:40:41,060
It's going to be a request for $5,000 for they're buying a new brush truck.

1272
01:40:42,100 --> 01:40:47,160
There are costs is $94,000. This was one of those that we discussed when you came to our meeting,

1273
01:40:48,120 --> 01:40:54,620
the one frying in and the one on the creek. So this is one of them, they're requesting some assistance.

1274
01:40:54,620 --> 01:40:59,120
Okay. And that does come out of the assistant fund or not?

1275
01:40:59,380 --> 01:41:06,560
Yes, sir. It comes out. We have right now in the assistant fund at this time we have 41,439. We'll have 36.

1276
01:41:07,000 --> 01:41:11,660
Okay. So we simply draw that pre that already budgeted amount down.

1277
01:41:12,020 --> 01:41:13,940
Yes, sir. We hadn't touched it. Wonderful.

1278
01:41:14,300 --> 01:41:15,460
Move for approval. Second.

1279
01:41:15,980 --> 01:41:20,060
All those in favor? All right. Any opposed? Motion approved.

1280
01:41:20,240 --> 01:41:21,420
Thank you, Richard. Yes, sir.

1281
01:41:21,420 --> 01:41:28,060
Again, item 16, consider approval of copier maintenance agreement between office systems

1282
01:41:28,060 --> 01:41:32,380
and Victoria County Sheriff's Office and take appropriate action.

1283
01:41:37,330 --> 01:41:41,330
Brandy, is this a rene- Is this a-

1284
01:41:41,330 --> 01:41:42,330
I think I know what you're talking about.

1285
01:41:42,930 --> 01:41:44,450
Who did put this on here?

1286
01:41:45,710 --> 01:41:55,630
This one was for Gina Pallon there and the approval for this one was, they said

1287
01:41:55,630 --> 01:41:57,970
You have agreed to the copier.

1288
01:41:59,910 --> 01:42:03,550
OK, so this is a new start and only made it.

1289
01:42:03,790 --> 01:42:07,810
So we've already got this budgeted. This is just the new agreement.

1290
01:42:12,330 --> 01:42:14,810
OK. OK. For approval.

1291
01:42:15,490 --> 01:42:17,090
Second. All those in favor.

1292
01:42:18,330 --> 01:42:24,650
Any opposed. Motion approved item 17 received letter of permission to enter and work on private property

1293
01:42:24,650 --> 01:42:28,390
and precinct one for the purpose of drainage improvement on county maintained

1294
01:42:28,390 --> 01:42:32,710
roads and take appropriate action. I talked to Commissioner Garcia this morning

1295
01:42:32,710 --> 01:42:37,730
asked me to speak to this. It's just a standard litter permission by Mr.

1296
01:42:37,890 --> 01:42:42,090
Rodriguez to enter his property to alleviate drainage off of a county

1297
01:42:42,090 --> 01:42:47,770
road. Move for approval. All those in favor? Aye. Any opposed?

1298
01:42:52,310 --> 01:42:52,310
Motion

1299
01:42:54,450 --> 01:42:57,230
You might need to call Mr. Mr.

1300
01:42:58,350 --> 01:42:58,630
Mr.

1301
01:42:59,470 --> 01:43:04,310
Consider approval of payment to staff concrete construction and connection to

1302
01:43:04,310 --> 01:43:07,290
RAB road project precinct to and take appropriate action.

1303
01:43:08,690 --> 01:43:10,510
It's just for history.

1304
01:43:11,090 --> 01:43:12,350
Receive it for approval.

1305
01:43:12,890 --> 01:43:13,170
Second.

1306
01:43:13,830 --> 01:43:14,690
All those in favor?

1307
01:43:15,150 --> 01:43:15,350
Aye.

1308
01:43:15,850 --> 01:43:16,410
Any opposed?

1309
01:43:17,030 --> 01:43:18,230
Motion approved.

1310
01:43:18,230 --> 01:43:24,030
that that staff that was the two that was forward and bankless no no I mean

1311
01:43:24,030 --> 01:43:33,930
him how long a project I mean how many feet oh you're out to think two fifth

1312
01:43:33,930 --> 01:43:45,910
that he was sixty feet total 60 60 I'm just looking at 15 on each side 15 on

1313
01:43:45,910 --> 01:43:56,090
each one. Yeah. And seven inches wide tops with the footer. I've got something coming up. Yeah. He's very, he's very reasonable.

1314
01:43:56,770 --> 01:44:05,190
Mr. Staffie. Item number 19, consider approval of proposal from Brandon Paving in connection to Spring Ridge and Grassland

1315
01:44:05,190 --> 01:44:12,510
subdivision precinct two and take appropriate action. Right. Brandon construction is going to seal Grasslands and Spring

1316
01:44:12,510 --> 01:44:13,550
I move for approval.

1317
01:44:13,970 --> 01:44:14,350
Second.

1318
01:44:14,810 --> 01:44:15,630
All those in favor?

1319
01:44:15,950 --> 01:44:16,190
Aye.

1320
01:44:16,870 --> 01:44:17,430
Any opposed?

1321
01:44:18,130 --> 01:44:19,030
Motion approved.

1322
01:44:19,250 --> 01:44:19,810
Item 20.

1323
01:44:19,990 --> 01:44:24,290
Consider approval of the following 2019 budget amendments and take appropriate action.

1324
01:44:24,870 --> 01:44:27,190
A. General fund various departments, expenditures.

1325
01:44:27,750 --> 01:44:29,510
B. Health department expenditures.

1326
01:44:31,010 --> 01:44:31,750
Move for approval.

1327
01:44:32,990 --> 01:44:33,970
All those in favor?

1328
01:44:34,630 --> 01:44:35,050
Aye.

1329
01:44:35,710 --> 01:44:36,370
Any opposed?

1330
01:44:37,570 --> 01:44:38,710
Motion approved.

1331
01:44:38,710 --> 01:44:45,150
Approved. Item 21, consider approval of personnel changes and take appropriate action.

1332
01:44:45,490 --> 01:44:49,270
Like always, you've got the summary and then detail on subsequent pages.

1333
01:44:49,730 --> 01:44:50,590
Move for approval.

1334
01:44:51,290 --> 01:44:53,370
All those in favor?

1335
01:44:53,630 --> 01:44:53,830
Aye.

1336
01:44:54,490 --> 01:44:55,110
Any opposed?

1337
01:44:56,430 --> 01:44:57,230
Motion approved.

1338
01:44:57,230 --> 01:44:59,810
And item number 22.

1339
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:07,300
2 is closed meeting pursuant to VTCA government code 551.074 to discuss personnel, various departments,

1340
01:45:08,000 --> 01:45:15,280
and VTCA actually know that economic development will push that to next week. So this is VTCA

1341
01:45:15,280 --> 01:45:22,520
551.074 for personnel in various departments. We will now go into closed session for that

1342
01:45:22,520 --> 01:45:26,800
purpose, the time is 1147 a.m.

1343
01:45:45,220 --> 01:45:49,500
We are coming out of closed session at 1.13 p.m. for agenda

1344
01:45:49,500 --> 01:45:56,680
item number 23, which is pursuant to VTCA Government Code 551.102. Return to open meeting

1345
01:45:56,680 --> 01:46:00,800
and take any action deemed necessary based upon discussion and closed meeting. There

1346
01:46:00,800 --> 01:46:07,240
was no decisions made in the closed meeting, no action taken and no action that needs

1347
01:46:07,240 --> 01:46:11,040
to be taken now so we'll adjourn at 113 p.m.