And then we'll have the pledges. Dear Lord, I come to you this morning, and thank you for the start of another busy week in busy day.
We thank you for your many blessings upon us in this community, pray that you would be with us in the decisions before us today.
In your name, I pray, amen.
Next item we have on the agenda is to consider approval of minutes this would have been our April 8 meeting and a copy of those are in front of each of you.
All those in favor, any opposed, motion approved. Item 4 citizens communication anyone with us this morning that would like to
bring up an item of county business that's not yet listed on the agenda is welcome to do so at this time.
I'll write well, then we will move right along to item number 5, which is consider approval of accounts payable for Victoria County and take appropriate action.
Our accounts payable for April 15, 2019, can't go to total of 495,000, 6,000, 7,000, 7,000, 3,000, and 18,000.
And our supplemental checks for the week came to 130,000, 666,000, and 43,000.
Second, all those in favor, any opposed, motion approved, item number 6 received monthly and quarterly reports from various county officials and departments and take appropriate action.
This morning we have my morning reports from the justice of peace, freezing number 2, and number 2 in full.
Second, all those in favor, any opposed, motion approved, item number 7 consider approval of bond for feature releases and take appropriate action.
Easy enough, item 8, consider approval of citizens medical center, interim vendor payments and take appropriate action.
You each have the April 11 letter from the hospital showing interim vendor payments in the amount.
A five hundred thousand three hundred forty four dollars and seventy seven cents.
The ACH report on that same day of April 11, 2019 was in the amount of two million three hundred nine thousand five hundred dollars and sixty nine cents.
Second, all those in favor, any opposed, motion approved, item number nine.
Here presentation and discuss possible public defender program and take appropriate action.
Let's see, and we are going to have let's see was it David Hall who.
Okay, yes, that's right.
We've met David good to see again and then Edwin co-facts.
We spoke with the Texas Intergent Defense Commission.
Well welcome both of you, appreciate you'll be in back here.
I know we've visited before some of our district judges county court at law judges, but we wanted to have the full court.
Here to be part of this discussion and to have our questions answered.
So appreciate you all being here.
I guess I'll turn the floor over to whomever whichever you wants to.
Give us some background on this and then we'll hear.
I'll offer so I'm Edwin co-facts on the grant program manager at the Texas Intergent Defense Commission.
I appreciate a chance to visit with you all this morning about some of the grant programs that we offer.
And in particular on indigent defense programs that support a public defender program provide indigent defense services.
So first is a little bit of quick background about our agency.
The Texas Intergent Defense Commission was created back in 2001 by the legislature.
It is made up of judges county county judges constitutional county judges criminal court judges.
Some elected officials and some attorneys and the mission of the indigent defense commission is to ensure that people's six amendment rights to have council when charged with the crime even if they can afford it are honored.
So we work with counties to provide some funding.
We provide some oversight and technical assistance for counties.
All counties are eligible to get formula grant funding from TIDC.
And unfortunately that only covers about 10 to 14 percent of the county's cost for appointing lawyers to indigent defendants.
That's the formula grant funding that pretty much everyone gets including Victoria County.
Our commission has been advocating for years to be able to do more and provide more assistance to counties.
We work with the legislature and do what we can with the funds that we receive.
So that's kind of our baseline funding that we're able to offer.
We have what we call an improvement grant program which is projects specific grants that we offer.
And including grants to operate a public defender program.
So traditionally in here in Victoria County, indigent defense responsibilities are met by the judges creating what we often refer to as the wheel or a list of attorneys who are qualified to provide representation in those cases.
And then those attorneys represent the clients they're appointed by after they're qualified as as the indigent.
They're appointed an attorney the attorney sends a bill into the court.
They they review that bill one by one and then approve or in some cases adjust the payment and send that off to the auditor.
The auditor makes the payment to the attorney.
Public defender program is a different model for providing indigent defense.
It's a little more integrated.
It's more cohesive and some of its primary benefits are providing enhanced oversight and accountability with respect to this function.
So the way a public defender works is sort of like a the other side of the coin from the county attorney of the district attorney's office.
You've got staff attorneys who are hired when there's sufficient case volume and certainly in the county as big as Victoria you have plenty of cases to justify having some staff attorneys dedicated to this work.
Those attorneys on staff court documents they're they're routinely getting out to the jail to interview the clients as soon as they're appointed.
To get things rolling on the cases.
Starting representation from our experience much earlier than most appointed private lawyers are able to do because of their they're competing obligations.
And so this sort of what I would say more cohesive or organized approach to providing indigent defense services has a lot of benefits and the our commission has kind of prioritized this as a.
Model that is preferable because of the enhanced accountability that comes along with it when you have a staff attorney they are supervised they're.
Getting training there they're being you know their work is being looked at.
The judges who have the responsibility of you know kind of providing that oversight on an assigned council system.
They see the attorneys in the court taking please and occasionally in trial.
And that gives them some visibility into the quality of the work and whether they're checking all the boxes they need to check.
But that's only a kind of a sliver of the work that the attorneys are doing is the work that happens in the courtroom.
And so the extra accountability and oversight that comes along with the public defender model has made this a kind of priority.
For the commission in terms of encouraging counties to look at this model and providing grant funding to come along with it.
So the kind of improvement grants that our commission offers the standard model is for us to just provide startup funding for counties.
So in a regular grant we would provide 80% of the cost in the first year step down to 60% the second year 40% third year 20% and then eventually have the county pick it up.
For public defender counties of rather for public defender projects in rural counties and we draw that line at 100,000 or less.
The commission has approved what we call sustainability grants.
But for these types of grants we'll still start accounting off where the state funds 80% of the project costs in the first year steps down to 60% of the project costs in the second year.
And then basically levels off at 50% costs moving forward.
Basically we provide extra funding on the first two years to get the grant to cover some of the costs associated with the transition from private design council.
The public defender model and then level off at 50 50 state county cost sharing.
That's a very good deal for counties in the sense that you still continue to get your formula grant funding from TIDC.
That formula grant funding while it's only a small percentage of your overall costs.
Is based in part on 50% of that numbers based on the county's population.
So that part is going to stay the same.
And then 50% is dependent upon the county's overall expenses for endage and defense.
So you still get that formula grant funding coming in.
You get 50% of the cost of the public defender covered in year beginning year three would be higher percentage in the first couple years.
Obviously the state is able under this kind of a model to pick up more than 50% of the costs of county and direct defense, which is the best deal we have going.
And much better than the standard formula grants.
The reason the commission feels comfortable with that and is provided these grants in this way for offered these grants in this way.
Is because of that extra quality assurance that you get you really know you have a much better sense of what the county is getting for its indigent defense spending.
And those folks have our operating within a program that has supervision, mentoring, you know employee reviews on an annual basis.
There's just a lot more oversight comes along with it.
And so that's kind of the rationale behind why we're able to offer that higher level of funding for this type of a program.
So the grant.
We offer these grants in common annual basis.
We are coming up to a deadline of May 10th to put in a request for one of these public defender grants.
I know that we a TRL, oh, I should circle back and say that counties have a couple of options on how to operate a public defender.
One option is to do it just like you would do the county or district attorneys office and the county directly hires staff.
Staffs up an office and operates it directly.
TIDC beginning back in 2007 I believe it was started a program with B county to in partnership with Texas Rio Grande legal aid to operate a public defender under contract.
So it's sort of outsourcing model that counties can use.
And it's really kind of a turn key operation in the way that TRL is able to offer these services.
So TRL, they're a nonprofit corporation.
They staff up to provide the indigent defense services and represent those cases.
They'll open an office in the jurisdiction and provide all that kind of oversight and accountability that I was referring to.
And for most counties, particularly smart counties, the big urban counties that have public defenders generally choose to operate them directly in the way that the district attorney works county employees.
The county's find that contracting or outsourcing.
These services works better for them.
It manages those kinds of, you know, you don't have to worry about the pension obligations and health insurance benefits and all that.
It's kind of covered by the nonprofit that contracts with the county to provide the services.
So that's the model that we've been discussing with Judge Zeller and a few other folks here in the county.
I know that TRLA has provided some preliminary budget numbers and then refined those numbers with some based on some feedback from Judge Zeller.
In terms of the process with the grant at this juncture.
It is important to get a grant request into us before that May 10th deadline.
However, if there are still questions about the scope of the program or budget details to be addressed.
When you turn in a grant request to us before that deadline, you can just note that the budget is still being finalized.
If you will, the main thing is that we just have a request in the hopper that's under consideration before that deadline.
And then the details can continue to be discussed.
If you do decide to move forward and turn in a grant application to us, the county is still under no obligation to move forward with the project.
It just keeps it allows us the opportunity to work with you to see if a project can be put together that meets everybody's needs and the budget that the county needs to see in order to move forward.
So that's kind of the deadline to bear in mind as we are coming up close to it.
TRLA and my agency are happy to work with the county if you would like an assistant strafting the application.
Because it's a program that a number of counties across the state are using we're very familiar with it and we could help you put together a grant application and pretty short order.
Our application is I would say much less honorist than a lot of government grant opportunities if you've ever waited through some of those ours is pretty straightforward.
So I'm happy to answer any questions.
That's kind of the overview.
I know that David Hall can speak to you a little bit or detail about the operation of his program.
Some of the budget numbers that have been provided for the commissioners.
Looking at both the preliminary budget.
That was provided and the refined budget based on your feedback to the dollar.
Looks like the county stands to save several hundred thousand dollars even after the initial step down from 80% funding to 50%.
Looks like it makes a good.
Looks good from a financial perspective for the county in terms of saving several hundred thousand dollars on this area of representation.
So I'm happy answering questions before I turn over to David or I can just.
But him talk about his program.
Okay. And we do have the revised projection numbers. I don't think I've seen the revised ones.
Okay.
Yeah. Well, I guess I'll point out for the benefit of the court and maybe those who haven't heard
about this have been involved in these discussions. We're relatively new to this discussion.
And early on in this discussion, it wasn't but about, well, when did we meet originally about?
Probably a month or 30 days ago. Three weeks ago.
And so I'm new to studying this and to looking at this.
But I have been studying it intently because it does have a lot of appeal to it.
The model of having the public defender office in-house and also the nonprofit program are both from what
I've seen more expensive than doing it the way we're doing it now.
The perk financially is that this being a priority of the state.
They're willing to put a lot of investment into it.
That's about 80% the first year, 60% the second year and then 50% in each year following.
So that's what makes it financially a good deal.
It appears to make it financially a good deal.
I know in Victoria County we've got some quirks that are different than some of the other counties.
Y'all do business in a much higher co-dependent rate than normal.
Also the dynamic of us having pretrial service department already, which was what I was wanting to see if it could be built into this proposal, those two dynamics.
The original estimate we saw showed, and I really am avoiding the first and second year because it will definitely save money the first two years.
On a permanent basis what we could reasonably assume are call savings to be.
That original estimate showed over $300,000 a year in call savings, which I thought could be increased.
And in fact would probably need to be increased given the fact that with our high co-dependent rate we'd still be maintaining a fairly robust wheel.
And so are you able to distribute those revised numbers now, or David, are you able to speak to that?
Yeah, well.
Turn over to you.
Are you going in a packet or anything?
No.
It's always a surprise.
Yeah, I don't know anything about it.
I don't have a paperwork.
I don't have anything.
Well, I think the paperwork's right here.
Yeah, and I haven't seen this either.
Thank you.
Okay.
And these numbers came from where?
They came from the numbers that the county submits to the Office of Court Administration and to TIDC.
It comes off of their websites, both of them are on their website.
And with the permission of the county.
This is a very nice pleasure.
Wonderful.
Yeah, thank you.
Okay.
The first first thing that...
If it's all I have, I have a question.
Absolutely.
Is there...
What about our local attorneys?
You know, we have local attorneys that take care of the district and county court in law.
Are they able to continue to...
We went this way.
They more of us would wouldn't be able to, because they joined your...
Well, we would probably try to hire several of them.
If we can convince them to work for our salaries.
Our salaries are fairly low.
But we always try when we start up one of these projects to hire some local people.
Best example I can give you is star county.
We've got a little three county regional program that's involved in star county.
We hired the former district attorney.
We've been there as the DA for 20 years.
And we hired his first assistant, who is now our chief defender in the star county operation.
And we hired an investigator from the Sheriff's Office.
And we have six lawyers in that county.
So a third of them are from star county originally with experience.
But in order to operate, this would be a mixture of felony representation and misdemeanor representation.
Misdemeanor is we normally start out with fairly inexperienced lawyers, recent law graduates from law school,
and we train them in house so that they can come up through the system.
It's important to bring those kinds of lawyers in and train them from the beginning.
It brings a new bloodstream of lawyers into your community.
This program, because of the size of your case, would require about a ten lawyer operation.
And a good mixture would be four or five, six that we could hire locally.
And a similar number that we would bring in as a recent law school graduates to take on the misdemeanor document in case load.
Before I get any further into this discussion, I'd like to introduce, I don't need to introduce Ron Walker, I suppose.
We know Ron.
We do know Ron's on the TRLA board of directors.
So he's the boss of it all.
Robert Doggett is going to be here shortly.
He was having a child delivery issues at school today, so he's coming out of Austin.
So he's somewhat delayed, but he'll be here in a few minutes.
But he is the executive director.
I'm the former executive director.
I was there for a number of years.
Ron was my boss.
He didn't fire me while I was there.
I retired honorably.
There he is.
And there's Robert Doggett who came in late and this honorably.
They should kind of just take responses.
Sure.
Mr. Jennings question regarding the local attorneys and what happens after this kind of transition.
So any kind of public defender program can only take up to a certain number of cases,
because ethical rules prevent them representing the code of attendance in this case.
There's always going to be a fairly significant amount of cases.
This is what the result of the grant to is a conflict on contemplative cases.
We're going to be at the chunk of the cases that public defender will be unable to take.
So there's going to be an ongoing stream of cases that would be appointed to the same lawyers.
The other thing that this program would not be involved with is the CPS cases.
Those family law cases regarding parental rights and criminal rights.
For most counties of that side of the.
The appointed council businesses is pretty significant growing.
This wouldn't really touch that area of engine representation.
So in terms of cases that would not be handled by this program.
Those are the big ones and fairly substantial.
Okay.
So we're just talking about criminal cases.
Yeah.
Just to be here.
And if we could sense.
I know the court is seeing this for the first time.
We can look at this sheet right here commissioner on the green heading up at the top.
And look at exactly what is being proposed here.
What these folks do is look at our.
Statistics are case case number of cases we encounter.
And based upon that volume they.
And just use statistics statistical model estimate what they need in staffing.
Given the case load and Victoria they're estimating total full time employees full time equivalents of 16.08.
People of those 10 are attorneys.
So based on the case load they're seeing.
They would need to hire 16 people.
And you see the cost for that in salary and in benefits.
About 1.1 million dollars.
They also estimate their.
Other expenses utilities space telephone.
Contract services training all the other stuff about 200,000.
So based upon our case load.
Their program contract would cost us about 1.3 million dollars.
Correct.
Which certainly obviously is more than the.
Roughly million we spent.
Again the.
Perk here in what makes this possibly feasible is that the state.
Is call sharing a lot of that.
Down at the bottom you see.
The 80% in year one.
Projected to save us about 777,000.
Year two at a 60% contribution.
543,000.
And then in year three with the 50% call share.
The savings is estimated to be about 412,000.
Those numbers were originally lower.
But in visiting with these folks about.
The fact that we're going to have to still maintain a private.
Private attorneys.
We would need to be a well.
Code defendants and a lot of this I learned for the first time here recently.
When there's a.
A bust and arrest whatever where there's more than one person involved.
That's what you're purchased code to fit.
Code defendants which typically in y'all's areas is around 10%.
But here in Victoria.
Due to the.
Providence of I guess gang activity.
Meth.
Production it's higher than that around 25%.
The body system.
So given that fact y'all were able to scale down your employees a little bit.
Thus increasing those cost savings.
One thing we'll have to though still consider on our end is what we would maintain.
Still maintain paying private attorneys.
Correct.
Which looking at that Caitlin we came up with.
I think around.
Roughly 200,000.
Is what we'd still maintain paying private attorneys.
So again this sheet that you're looking at here they're estimate on employees.
Needed total cost.
And then the estimated cost savings.
My goal in all this is to make sure that those numbers at the bottom right are accurate.
Those cost savings.
Because I would think we would need to be fairly confident we're saving at least.
250,000 ish.
To have some margin for error.
Constance our DA has something you want to morning.
Morning.
How are you doing?
Good.
I would be remiss at this jump.
I didn't speak.
I want to thank the gentleman.
First want to say that I know that this organization does fine work.
And I know that the counties that they are serving.
They're providing an excellent service.
The projected numbers that you're looking at that if I'm not mistaken are based on a glimpse
three years back.
And so under a different district attorney with the different philosophical approach to case management and
charting decisions and things like that.
And so I have to tell you that I don't think that the numbers going forward are going to be reflected
what you're seeing on paper at this moment.
And so I'm not saying that in Victoria County in the future this may not be the direction that we need to go.
But I'm saying to you not yet.
I would appreciate the opportunity to have a full year or two under our belt to see what impact a new philosophical
approach has on these numbers.
I think that would be smart.
And at the same time, complimenting the court and the judge certainly for exploring any opportunity
to be good stewards of our tax dollars.
Not taking issue with that.
But I'm saying that perhaps it's premature this junction to make that decision because the numbers I think
are going to look a lot different.
So I need to sort that into as my duty as you're really like this.
Sure.
Speaking of the time frame, you had mentioned application needs to be made in May.
Right.
What is the time period for approval, a notification of award and that long term.
Tell me something.
Yeah that happens is June.
Tell me some stops along the way.
All the way to yonder on go in Victoria County.
Right.
The award decision to invite in June.
Right.
So our staff will typically present the request to our board and at the June meeting, which was early
June, they can take action at that point.
I mentioned that since the there's still some refining and then it's due to the budget.
If, you know, we don't present the grant request to our board until the county is fully ready to do so.
So even though we haven't made sense to have any kind of get something in the offer,
we've presented board in either June or August.
More likely I would think in this case it probably be right.
To present the board for action in August.
The startup program which typically be slated for the fiscal year 2020, which is the end of October on our calendar.
We're known for those counties.
So we'd be looking at starting up October 1st.
Because the idea is whenever we implement it.
A larger program, that schedule often is hard to meet. So we don't have a move forward until all the stakeholders are prepared to move forward. We can leave the request pending for a few months, if needed, as detailed or worked out. But the standard time limit would be to start up in October, unless there's still work to be.
We're on a calendar year. I don't know if that makes a difference.
Now, on these numbers, you'll pull out the family loans, stuff that you can't do.
Yes, the family loss stuff is not included in the program. The case was were based on review as your district attorney just mentioned.
Her review of the most recent three years of data that we have about the volume of criminal cases and how many attorneys and staff would be needed for that case.
And there has been, and I concur with the district attorney, there has been fairly dramatic change, even within this last three year period in which she was not in the role of the district attorney.
And that's not uncommon. You may see a 20, 30% difference from year to year, which is the reason we use three year averaging.
And we go back every year and look at the numbers over the most recent three year period and make adjustments. So if the case is decreased by 20% in the next year or the current year, that will be reflected in the next time the grant comes up for renewal, both with TIT and with the county.
So it's a running kind of an average that we're looking at and those adjustments are made throughout the period. And of course there's always the option if you don't like how the numbers are working for you to opt out of the contract.
The only thing we ask is that you pay us for the cases that we still have obligations on.
And I'll speak briefly to that. That it is correct and appreciate constants you bringing that up because we do a different administration in the DA's office. I think we'll definitely lead to savings there to what extent we don't know yet.
Of course those savings would be realized without proceeding with the off we stick with our current program, but you're saying we'd also it seems like I know that dynamic is true we will see some lowering of calls, but with that unknown prevent us from proceeding.
If instead of a million we drop to 800,000 would that be a deal killer.
And that's a question we have to answer and certainly something we need to consider because that is a variable here.
There's some other variables we'll get to but constants.
I didn't elaborate further and I'm not trying to tell you the meaning that the biggest jumps that we saw in our numbers coincided with the prior administration's data bi-trop calls.
And so one change in the way we do business can have a dramatic effect on the numbers that you're looking at.
The policies is wrong.
Right. Right.
We're only three months into administration and I'm not sure if I can guarantee the numbers are going to be lower going forward just because we are addressing things all different.
My predecessor.
A lot of the fact that he tried cases at three times the state average and we're we're not embracing that.
We've got a lot of opportunities and differences.
The other few concerns we is that if we go forward in this way with the code event of race that we have on the books,
the likelihood that the local attorneys that take those cases and accept, you know, they're part of their practice.
They will move in another direction altogether.
We can't make any practice without being, you know, on an important angle.
And so I need to go back to some of those folks with one of these 25% of our docket.
They're not going to be the course.
You know, it would be a realistic to expect that they're going to wait around for those cases.
They have to make a living and no one to other practice areas or go to another place.
And so that does concern this well.
I have a question.
We're right on the cuss of the population cut off for the funding of the levels you spoke.
In the coming year, our census census of about $100,000 to the formula does that change.
So we haven't been asked the question.
You asked that I would be the commission would I think look at that.
To the benefit of the county.
I don't think we would suddenly splash it when you get to 100,000.
We're right.
Correct.
We came up with that threshold.
There's a bill in legislature currently that is directing our agency to prioritize funding for county for low 100,000.
Of course, any number you think you're going to be sort of arbitrary.
But I think the idea is that we want to prioritize the system.
More counties compared to the ordinance.
And so I wouldn't anticipate that much of a risk coming.
Thank you.
Correct.
What we're exactly with this is historically.
Well, do you hire new attorneys fresh out of law school because they're cheaper?
I mean, you know, the attorneys we have here have got to help a lot of experience in this field.
We're looking for a mixture.
We need about equal number of inexperienced and experienced lawyers.
So TRLA is a very large nonprofit law firm.
We have currently about 185 lawyers.
It's the largest civil legal services program in the country.
So that means we have to recruit constantly year round.
And we recruit all across the country.
So we're always trying to bring in new people at right out of law school.
We bring in 15 or 20 a year in an ordinary course of things.
When you bring in, when you start up a new defender program at a jurisdiction,
we always try to hire some of the experienced local lawyers as a priority because we need that kind of community knowledge and experience
to train and mentor the younger lawyers.
And then we bring in that fresh blood from the law schools.
And hopefully put them in the community where they'll stay in the community.
And rise up through the ranks to management roles within the organization.
So that's what we try to do.
You're not always successful in doing that.
We prioritize, for example, in our recruitment efforts.
People who are bilingual in English and Spanish because a significant number of our clients speak Spanish.
So we want to have people who can communicate in that language.
That reduces the poo fairly dramatically.
And we make exceptions all the time to that.
But it is an important factor that we have to consider.
But yes, we will try earnestly to hire some of your local lawyers to take on these responsibilities.
You don't have any idea over all what percentage on the facility you're already operating?
Well, I mentioned the star county, which is the closest in terms of size we're dealing with here.
The star county has a population now, 62, 63,000.
Victoria County's 92, and the last I'll look.
But star county's poverty population is about almost 50% of the population is eligible for our services.
Victoria County, it's about 20% less than 20%, 18%.
So we actually have 10,000 more clients, potential clients in star county than we do in Victoria.
But we've hired locally in star county.
We've hired, as I mentioned in the former DA in his first assistant.
One of the other lawyers we had there was another person who had experience in the county attorney's office.
But whenever we can find local experience lawyers who are good, we want to try to hire him.
It's for everybody's benefit.
What we're trying to do is run as operationally efficient as we possibly can, and that comes with having experienced lawyers who can work with the judges.
Your judges have been almost uniformly and outspokenly from the district judges who had experience with our program in Golead and Referio counties.
Have been praising.
And we did invite them all our four district judges to county court at law judges.
They had conflicting court room obligations.
But I know at least three, well three of our four district judges were supportive of it.
The other I just haven't spoken to.
I think one, where did our county court at law stand?
One, I know Judge Ernst didn't appear to be supportive of it.
I'm not sure about Judge Gillard.
It sounded very much like Commissioner Janik.
He was concerned about, and I think Commissioner Burns expressed this in the leading two,
concerned about the private attorneys who might be displaced in some proportion.
And that was the biggest concern I think that he was articulate.
Yeah, and that's one variable we do have to consider.
Yes, sir.
Do you have somebody?
If you just give us your name.
Yes.
I'm a local attorney and I've been practicing.
I think this coming November of the 26 years.
And it's always been here in town.
Isn't this around the county?
Isn't this a significant portion of what I do?
It was working on it for both criminal and some of the family.
But not so much to have.
Two observations.
I don't have access.
I don't believe to have all the numbers that you generally have.
I can't miss easily.
Well, what I think I'm essentially hearing.
And I've certainly been hearing about this for the last.
Maybe four or six years with pretty high level of intensity.
It's going around the court now.
Is what I think I'm effectively hearing is.
Maybe a defacto presumption.
That the first year the grant will be.
That that that is, I think, set.
And the next year's 60.
But I think the presumption comes in.
Where.
That it's just going to get to 50%.
And it's going to come from the same.
And it's going to stay that way, potentially.
Now, that's certainly possible.
But as we all know when we're talking about the future.
It's always contingent on various things that are used with all of our.
It's kind of like you buy a new house.
And you know, both neighbor.
There aren't any houses there yet.
You're one of them.
The developer tells you will don't worry.
We're going to.
You know, we're going to.
Surround you with very nice homes.
Just like you know, but as time goes on, you may discover that.
That does really happen to be market forces and other things.
For beyond the developers.
Cool.
I'm not trying to say that the organization here is the developer.
And you know, we just don't know about the availability of grants.
They may still be here in the next four or five years, the next 10 years.
Then again, they may not.
No one knows where the economy is going.
No one knows where they're going.
The other observation I'd like to make is I have seen some numbers indicating that.
The newer lawyers, the brand new lawyers will be coming out and working at your position.
The numbers I've seen and sent me in an email.
I believe it was 35.
Maybe it was 45,000 dollars here.
Now, I'm not totally sure on that.
You may have numbers to encounter.
But I would submit that, you know, I'm fortunate enough to have to be old enough to have gone through law school.
And gone through a code I code expensive law school where I paid for the whole thing with loans.
And I borrowed the grant total of 24,000 dollars for all three years.
Now, the time I got out, I thought that was the absolute king's ransom.
But, you know, I paid it all.
I believe that on this point, youngsters are probably coming out with eight to ten times.
That amount of money that they have invested and more.
I would submit that what's going to wind up happening.
At least with the brand new lawyers, it seems that the organization wants to hire.
Is that they're not going to be here from now.
They're going to be from larger cities.
They're going to probably rent an apartment on a six month lease.
And if they're probably, as they do a good job here, I'm sure they'll do the best they can.
But they're going to be actively looking for something that pays more.
And I would submit to you that after the six month lease, or after the year.
And they're going to find something more lucrative and good life.
Right?
They're probably going to owed them that this amount of money.
And everybody wants to do that.
And so I submit that what's going to happen is that, to a large extent, the defense,
or that you're going to get on these energy cases through no fall in their own or of the organization.
You're going to have tremendous turnover.
You're going to have people that work here for nine months and they've been six months today.
Maybe you're 15 months and then they need to go to the stands on your work, or the school.
But better, higher paying job.
And so you're constantly going to have somebody else who's always being trained,
that they're being trained in the courtroom.
And you're not going to have to be experienced a little bit.
But I think to have, as far as accountability, I have seen over the years.
You know, it hasn't been epidemic, but there have been some lawyers on the one that was who clearly weren't taking their obligation seriously, and they were just kind of trying to escape through.
And I've seen judges remove those from the lips, and it doesn't take very long. They figure out pretty quickly who cares, who does it, who is doing their homework, who is it.
And you know, I think there's already a system in place that's called our judges.
Or I'd like to look at the lawyers who maybe aren't going to take it seriously and send them on their work.
So, again, I don't have any against the organization, but at the same time, I think there are parallels both financial and professional if the county goes to court.
Well, thank you, Mr. White.
I guess I could be more sympathetic to the second consideration about the turnover, maybe folks going to make more money elsewhere.
The first issue we did talk about, the state pulling the money in the grant going away, but I don't think fear of that should prevent us from proceeding, if that's what we think we should do.
Because if the grant goes away, we revert to the status quo.
We don't want to, for fear of that, grab the status quo immediately. I mean, it's possible that do.
I mean, if we were to go into this program and the money were to go away in three years or four whenever, we'd have to redevelop the and pay the expense of back to the attorney wheel,
but in foregoing this option, that's where we are anywhere.
I'm so, probably, I'm 53, I probably have the lower allows being another 18 years of working life left, that's what I'd like to do.
And I think I can speak for most of the orders, people are going to wait around to see if we go back to the steps.
But they're going to, like everybody else, they're going to move on to another life to put it, perhaps it'll be something else here in town and they'll be real.
You know, a lot of us have backers degrees are very remarkable, and we may just go off and get something outside.
What I'm saying is, if there's later an attempt to go back to the status quo, you may find yourself with virtually nobody who's willing to step up and do that,
or especially once they get the idea that, well, you know, I do this gig for a couple of years and then you know, living in it.
So I don't think it's going to be very attractive for people to want for lawyers to want to wait around to see how it works out.
They're going to move on, they've got their bills, and so they want me to say.
Thank you, sir.
Yes, sir, Ron.
I asked where I wasn't going to say anything, so I apologize.
Well, then why are you even being here?
Well, we didn't input.
Judge Stevenson once said when I had, you want to question a witness, I said, I have no question.
She said, that's most eloquent you've been.
So anyway, I'm going to be less eloquent, but I do want to address the issue of the competency.
I was appointed by state bar to be on the board of this organization over years ago, and it's can't quite get off,
but the lawyers that they attract out of law school are absolutely outstanding.
They are dedicated, they are to helping people out.
They stay on, and I'm not exaggerating.
Probably this year we hired people from Harvard, you know, Berkeley, you know, across the United States,
UT, very competent people.
What attracts them is the type of work that they want to help these citizens out.
But also, we have a program of loan forgiveness.
If you're with the program for two years, your student loans are forgiven 100%.
Even if they're six figures, student loans like was referenced.
Yes, I mean, we like to say we attract people from big name, law school, all across the United States.
So what you're going to have is you're going to have some good local lawyers,
and combined with these really brilliant young people who are going to be brought to this community.
So I don't think you're going to see a downturn.
In fact, I think the district judges will tell you there's no such thing or it hasn't happened yet.
So I wouldn't be concerned about the quality of representation that these people are going to do.
And what a quality lawyer will do, and I know the DA will agree with me.
I'd much rather have a qualified lawyer on the other side of the one who's not, because you can get things done.
So they're going to have qualified people who will be able to move these cases.
Please, the ones they need to try the ones they need to, but you're going to have competency, not that you don't have it now,
but you don't have to have a fear of incompetency, because you're going to have good people down here.
And, you know, hopefully after a few years, they, you know, will move on and be members of this community.
But I think the longevity is just not there, just because the way of this type of people they recruit and the structure of the lump together.
So, to think of a good shape thing. So I'm, it's fine. I take up time.
Oh, no problem. Thank you for that wrong. Appreciate it.
I would just mention the, the, in addition to the loan forgiveness thing, we start off 60% of the first 12 months and 80% of their student loans in the second year.
And then it goes to a hundred percent.
It has been children that cost for the defender program.
It, no cost to you or no cost to the state of the county.
We're trying to work with TIDC to see if we can't shift some of that cost because it's been a little under $200,000 a year that we take on.
On the civil side of our program, we have the same kind of job benefit.
But there are a lot of alternatives through the state and through other sources for that kind of loan forgiveness on the criminal side of the docket there isn't.
So we've continued that for our public defender lawyers.
We start salaries at 50,000.
After you've been licensed.
And it goes up from there to about 75,000.
Though most of the people with experience are in some kind of a leadership role that pays higher salaries than that.
But if you're being paid 50,000, 52,000 in the second year, plus loan forgiveness, many of those are making 60 to 70,000 in effect.
Because of the loan forgiveness operation.
And that helps explain why our turnover program wide is around 10 or 11% a year.
So it's pretty small.
How does that compare to, I mean, that doesn't seem terribly high, given it's, it's not.
What's the basis for comparison?
What's the typical DA's office?
Oh, we had transitions, but I know, not us now.
There's been leadership changes, but just in general what?
I don't know that.
Okay.
We looked at a comparison for a different program about a year and a half ago.
Just give you just a very high level overview.
We looked at salaries for county attorneys, assistant district attorneys, and there's a pretty big range.
But, you know, one thing that fair mind is that those salaries come with things in most cases of county tension, good benefits, package, health care.
It ranged from 50,000 or so for assistant county attorney, handling miscommuners, which is kind of on far with this kind of budget.
People handling salaries and district attorneys offices in the 70's was pretty typical.
You go to the bank and say, you're going to go back to quite a bit.
The salary structure definitely changes in the urban counties.
But, you know, 50's and 70's for miscommuner and attorney attorney is kind of a ballpark of what we saw with a lot of dignity, a lot of variation, kind of.
Okay.
I'm kind of shoot from the hip, but in the long forgiveness kind of standard and a lot of larger firms.
I'm just, I never was in a ward.
I don't know if any invigorating would offer that.
Brian, do you don't hear that?
And, oh.
I don't.
My daughter's with, go right, my daughter lost the bank of the government.
Maybe they got their lungs forgiven but you're still sending a check.
They're making plenty of money.
I think it's built into the salary package.
Well, I, if you think is a point out, I did.
The concerns, the issues brought up are very legitimate in their things that we need to have a grasp.
A grasp on as far as the impact.
I guess big picture from my point of view, if we were reasonably confident that in this case,
that in this arrangement, we could save 250 or so thousand a year.
I think it would be something that we would need to seriously consider.
There are some non-financial negatives, some non-financial perks,
but it would need to make sense from a financial point of view with a margin of error built into there to make it doable.
I think the bigger items pushing that's called savings one direction or the other is our high code defendant,
which will still cause us to need to maintain a private, private attorney wheel where we'll pay probably 200,000 a year or so.
Grant it that wheel may be harder to man, given folks getting out of the business, moving on whatever.
That's one item.
The second item, I think, may already be accounted for in these numbers.
And that was early on my questions as to how we can make this offer better, given the fact that we have a pre-trial service office,
doing a lot of these things that y'all would ordinarily do.
It looks like that's already been built into the equation.
Other factors that will brought up the DA's comment about our costs are going to be trending lower.
No doubt we'll see that, but you based your estimates on a three year average.
So even if we had a 40% reduction in the first year, the impact on our total expense considering a three year average, I don't know if it would kill the deal.
We would still realize presumably some of those call savings in y'all's estimate as far as the staffing that you need in future years.
One thing too, we haven't brought up in the proposal you've given us, and in the price tag you've given us, it has a rental office space of nearly $50,000.
We're about to close a deal on some real estate, which would give the county ample office space to house these folks both from Victoria as well as surrounding areas,
whether that could be set up as an in-kind allowance in the fee amount or you know, could give us a rental payment.
I mean that's an area there where I think could be built into the deal to make it work.
Another consideration I know I've talked to some other counties, neighboring counties of ours, who are kind of looking to us to see what we do before they decide what they do.
It would seem that an economy scale, if there were others that joined, perhaps that could be built into this also further increasing our call savings.
So those are a few dynamics that are not certain, but we I think need to explore them to come to a number of call savings number that were pretty confident we could realize.
Then from the vantage point of the court. Well, I guess from y'all's perspective we still haven't figured it out yet, but if we could get a $250, $300,000 annual call savings through this arrangement.
What would be your thoughts on that?
I want to talk to the other judges. I mean, we don't have very much information to this now, which I question, and you know, I want to talk to the judges and the other attorneys.
Although I really respect what our VA said, I put a lot of weight in her, you know, her opinion, and it's nice to be able to do that, by the way.
But I'd like to talk to some people. I know we need to do it in the hurry.
I wouldn't say we're in an extreme hurry. We would we need to turn in basically an intent application by the 10th.
But that wouldn't obligate. Actually, I think it's a full application.
And I guess my point earlier was if the budget is.
The budget and scope questions are still outstanding. You can note that in the application, and we won't finalize it or present it to our board until you're ready to submit.
So, as long as there's something, I guess the May 10 deadline is to have some kind of request in the offer with provisional members, if you will, working members.
And that will give us the opportunity to review all of the opportunity to refine the request about the district, et cetera.
And Commissioner, you're certainly be good to talk to the judges. I know they've been eager to talk about this.
The district judges seem to be supportive, the county court of law judges, probably not, but that would be smart.
And as I've mentioned, we aren't in don't need to make a decision on this today.
The bigger picture question, I think, well, that I'm trying to answer is what can we anticipate as far as it calls savings, that we're pretty sure we could actually get.
Make sure our assumptions in all this are correct.
Hopefully, if I walk you through the changes that I made in that sense, the previous numbers, which I think were around $315,000 in savings at 50% state funding.
I was attempting to get more precise numbers on the conflicts ratios from the pre trial services and the district attorney's office was not successful.
But so what I did for the purposes of this study was to double the experience ratio on conflicts that we had in star county.
So to do that in simply as possible on this thing, I reduced the percentage of cases that are allocated to the public defender program by 10%.
As a substitute for a conflict ratio.
Is that a sufficient reduction?
Well, nor we had about a what, a 25%, 25% to 30%.
Okay.
Yeah.
Those numbers give me a lot of discomfort because that's not anything like what we experienced elsewhere.
And I don't know what between Victor.
There's a fair amount of criminal activity in star county.
I've heard.
It's so you've heard, yes.
And they're.
Real grand city on the border.
Just upriver from Mac Allen.
So, you know, that's the history that I'm looking at.
It's kind of a benchmark here.
Our actual conflict ratio based on the numbers that we have actually interviewed people at identify a conflict was 0.6% less than 1%.
Now, that excludes people who were conflicted out because without us doing an interview.
So, we've done estimates that not based on data, but estimates.
And I don't know whether that's what, what, what, nor is the numbers based on or how we're getting to those numbers.
But 10 to 12% is what I'm told is the actual conflict, if you will, but an estimated revenue derived number based on actual interviews.
So, you know, to jump from 0.6% to 30% seems to me to be unrealistic.
0.6% 0.6%.
Oh, that's 10%.
That's 10%.
What did I miss?
The difference between people that we have actually interviewed and identified a conflict is, I think there were like 17 last year, that we actually interviewed.
And we went through a conflict's check and we said we've got a conflict here.
As opposed to people who we never interviewed, they went to a bondsman, for example.
And a bondsman said, well, this is a group case.
TRLA's only going to take one of them, don't bother to go over there.
So, there are a fair number of people we think who were never interviewed by TRLA and therefore never got into our system.
So, the ones that got into our system is meniskeed and we've identified as a conflict.
Those that were never interviewed is substantially larger number.
We're estimating about 10 times the number that we actually saw.
So, that's the reason for the disparity in the numbers.
I'm much more comfortable if we've interviewed somebody and identified a conflict because we have systems in place for doing those conflicts checks.
It's not only people who have a group case co-dependence, but it's also people that we've represented on a previous case.
So, is that determination of black and white determination to clear-cut or or y'all to have discretion as far as it's a conflict?
No, it's not a conflict. How does that work?
Well, all lawyers have an obligation to identify conflicts and avoid them.
And so, the way it works in our shop, everything is on the computer.
So, if first thing we do is find out the person's name, social security number.
We run it through the computer to see if we have represented an opposing party in any previous case.
And if we have, it comes up as a conflict.
And then we either have to resolve that conflict or we withdraw from further discussions with the point and turn it over to the defender context, turn it over to the wheel.
So, but we've made a record of that in that sort of situation.
But if somebody has been diverted from that system informally, we wouldn't have a record of it.
And there are a lot more of those in the R1s that we have a record of.
But I doubt that it's 30 times more or 35 times more.
I think it's probably more like 10, 12, 15 times more.
Does that include like the family not law or North?
Because y'all can't.
That's correct.
So, yeah.
I can't.
This doesn't include family law at all.
So, this doesn't include any civil cases.
It's going to only be criminal misdemeanor felony.
So, you're still going to have all your expenses on the civil side.
Along with these expenses until you are alive.
Of course, those expenses on the civil side aren't reflected in here.
Correct.
So, we're going to have those regardless.
You're going to have another about 300,000 on top of that.
Now, we'll see yet.
Forgive me that.
So, I haven't been able to look at and choose paper, right?
Okay.
So, how about the juveniles?
Where we all also covered juveniles?
Yes, we're covered.
And it's proposal.
I just wanted to ask one of our patients.
So, whatever the actual rate of the conflict cases is.
And it's been confusing.
I think Morris got some good data from your systems that it's next percentage.
And I think, you know, it's really a data challenge.
And we just need to sit down and come all the data and come up with a number that makes sense.
There's a couple of, I think, correct me from Monday.
But when we worked with other counties for the contract material,
a contract has a kind of, you know, based on our projections.
We will handle this many, up to this many cases.
That's kind of guaranteed in your contract.
And if it turns out that that number is below.
You know, it is based on an overly conservative assumption about contracts.
Well, then, you know, everybody's encountering cases.
They come in.
That can be addressed at that time.
But I think so, you know, whatever the contracts that you all would enter into,
potentially, enter into what have the numbers, they agree upon numbers.
And you wouldn't be obliged to represent people beyond that.
And you wouldn't be obliged to pay them for it.
So if the actual caseload that you undertook was less than that amount,
where would that lead us?
Well, I think that would be, I'm assuming that would be adjusted in the next year's contract.
It's more likely that they would be, I think,
you would set the rate for your comfortable based on perhaps more conservative assumption.
And then, it's more cases are flowing in.
They would bring that to your attention and talk about the need to adjust the contract.
Yeah.
For example, in star county, again, those three counties, star gem log and dovol,
which is kind of again comparable to what we're talking about here.
We have taken on, in the last year, about 17% more cases than what we originally contracted for.
And we haven't been paid for those cases.
We took them on anyway because of sense of obligation.
But we're going to be sitting down with those county judges and revising those numbers fairly soon,
because we can't continue doing that.
And the state's 50% call share is only on the pre-determined contract amount.
So if we come in 17% over, there's no call share on that.
Correct.
TRLA takes that yet.
Well, in turn, we would take that yet.
No, TRLA would take that yet.
Okay.
It would be sounded for your next year.
You're signing a contract for a fixed amount.
Okay, I'm with you.
So if we go over it in a year, then more cases than what we contracted for, that's TRLA's problem.
I see, okay.
And if it's less, then we're going to have to adjust it either way, whether it's more or less.
So it's a continuing contractual relationship.
And if we had a serious aberration, if, for example, the new district attorney decided that she's only going to end
by 20% as many people as the prior administration, then we're not going to wait for a year for that to get worked out.
We're going to get back together again because we want to keep you guys happy.
So we're going to renegotiate the contract whenever you feel in the need to renegotiate the contract.
Either side can terminate this contract on 90 days notice.
So it's a continuing kind of relationship, where we work with you on that.
How many counties in Texas, your current contract with 10?
10.
Are there any exclusions within criminal cases like capital deal cover?
You'll cover capital cases or some of the bigger stuff that gets really expensive?
We handle capital cases if the death penalty is not sold.
And we've taken on one or two capital cases where death penalty was requested.
Those are incredibly expensive and take up an awful lot of time.
So in our contracts, we put an exclusion for those cases unless we agree otherwise with the county.
And TITC does provide funding and not sure if the current county is in the program.
But there is a regional public defender office for capital cases where the death penalty is not programs based and love it for counties across the state.
Yeah, I think we opted not to do that. We're not in that program.
That would be the suggestion for protecting yourself against those very large possible death penalty cases that we offer through our programs.
This would be, I would not think that you should count on death penalty cases.
I mean, I'm kind of ignorant on this port.
Now boys had a question, how do you determine the true engine?
The y'all need that or will the judges do that?
Well, in this case, you have a free trial services doing that.
And we can either continue with that sort of an arrangement.
That's not a much of a time killer. It takes us about six minutes average to make that determination.
We do about 30,000 of those a year at TRLI program wide.
So it's quick.
I mean, I made an adjustment in these budget numbers for about 0.08 FTE of an investigator to cover the time spent on doing that.
So it's not much time.
But we can certainly work with Norse Shop and how we want to divvy up those kinds of responsibilities.
In most of our counties, there is no pre-trial services office.
The judges are the ones that have to do that.
And they're more than happy to dump that on us.
So I've noticed. So we do that typically.
Mr. Merchist, just saying down in the county office, the county judge is ultimately having a responsibility to determine who qualified for these services.
Who's engine, who's not?
With your county, and it's really the credit of your county that you have with pre-trial services in Norse program in place.
They do a good job.
And the, you know, some of the judges will delegate with authority to look at get the financial information from the defendants and figure out if they're poor enough to deserve an appointed attorney.
But ultimately, the butt stops with the judges and the judges will often delegate that responsibility either to pre-trial services for in some cases.
Do these numbers reflect keeping our free trial services?
What those numbers do is it takes out that six minutes per case of an investigator's time.
And so it reduced the investigator time slightly.
So, yes.
There's been no discussion about,
Okay, well, the original proposal called for 17.53 FTE's, the revised numbers is 16.08.
But that was both the dynamic of pre-trial and the higher code.
That's correct.
Okay.
That's one more quick thing.
I mean, I know you all, I appreciate the time that you've given this consideration.
David is talking a lot about the program in Star County.
That's a regional program in the Star.
A few of all in Jim Bond County down the Rio Grande Valley.
But because I think it's comfortable in scope.
The other program that's been in place for a number of years is based in B County.
I mean, being live open with Mullin, that at Golyan, or Furio, and LaVaca.
I'm looking at a couple other counties that might join that regional program.
Mr. Burns had mentioned wanting to hear from the judges about this criminal court judge.
And I think that's essential to have those conversations.
I'd also recommend if you have the opportunity to talk to some of the other either constitutional county judges or in some cases,
like the missions that are more involved in those counties.
Again, with LaVaca, Golyan, Fur Furio, that have recently joined generally from what we've been hearing in Austin.
The program is very happy with the program.
So, in addition to talking to your own criminal judges, hearing from some of the other folks that said in your seats in neighboring counties is probably helpful.
In terms of how the program is working for me.
I just wanted to recommend that to some of these people.
There you go.
Thank you Edwin.
One other questions might jump out here.
I know, and obviously we're not going to vote or decide on anything today.
This is just informational.
Any questions up here are things we need to search further to get the answer to beyond what's been previously mentioned.
Judge, if I may, I guess suggestion.
One of the things that we've heard from other counties is that having a defender program has a positive impact on your jail budget.
That it reduces the time people have to sit in jail at $55, $60 a day.
The star county again, as the auditor's office, did such an informal survey last year and came up with a number of about a half a million dollars that the public defender program they thought were saved.
I don't know how good that study is.
And I haven't looked at the underlying data.
But one of the things you got to do is look at a baseline for before you start the defender program.
And what would probably be very helpful both to you and us is if we ran that kind of a baseline study here in Victoria and maybe one or two of the other counties around here that are thinking about joining Jackson Galloon.
Running that kind of a study to see whether there are material savings and try to isolate the public defender program as being the factor that causes those savings.
Is that something y'all would be interested in participating in?
Seeing the data from these other counties, I would, yes, indeed.
Well, we already do calculate that based on a pretty child program with us on these services.
In other counties also?
Not in the other counties for Victoria.
Okay, so that's part of the report that you received.
Yeah, okay, I guess we get that.
I would be curious to see other counties how it has affected jail population.
I'd, in the whole exercise we're doing here trying to gather this data that I think would be of use to see sure.
Okay.
Any further questions up here?
Okay.
Well, I certainly appreciate you all's time this morning.
In the information you've given us again, my, I guess, biggest effort is to see how confident we can be with some of these projections with some of these estimates.
There are many variables we've got to consider that I guess typically aren't in the counties y'all are in.
But if it could yield the savings that appear possible, that would be something to court.
I think we'd need to seriously consider.
So what steps do you want to take on this?
Talk to the judges, talk to others, and have it back on the agenda for further discussion.
If you want to go that route?
Yes, I have one other question.
I'll see you here on trial.
Okay.
Who regulates that trial and expenses on that trial?
Because I mean, you know, if it's trial somewhere else are here and so I just, how would that work?
Well, we have internal procedures.
And the first person that would be responsible for reviewing it would be the chief defender in office here in Victoria.
Would know who the cases are set in which counties responsible for the trial.
And would verify that it's a legitimate expense and it's reasonable and necessary.
Then it would go to our accounting office and would be reviewed there and usually by the director of administration and central office.
Because it depends on where the attorney came from.
Would we pay the travel for the attorney to come down to Victoria to hear a case of the attorney was a local?
No.
I think the most of the travel that would be, it's necessary to be incurred in this type of a program.
So there's a staff investigator in this, that's going to be going out and crying scenes and gathering evidence.
That person, not there's probably going to file some mileage for there.
Use the personal vehicle because here LA does not offer any speech at vehicles.
So it's more of the kind of local mileage expenses for things like an investigator following up on facts,
maybe going to get records or interviewing witness, things like that.
I know that also one of the things that here LA has been good about is providing training for their staff.
So I think that maybe part of that maybe has in the training budget.
Just kind of built into the general operation.
But there might be some travel.
But it's all going as opposed to the county getting a claim for travel.
Over time it provides for their administrative procedures under the contract.
But I think it's more local travel and mileage to be considered as opposed to bringing people in.
So the authority of the outside of Victoria.
I don't think that's what's going to happen.
You have to use the word subjective word.
I think it is.
Is it.
That traveling.
If it's just traveling to Victoria and not bringing their attorney from the outside and drive in.
Because you know if they don't live locally.
Then they're driving and they're getting traveled on.
And it's going to be still paying for the travel time.
Right.
No.
The way it would work.
I mean what most of that travel involves is going for Victoria to add.
In fact, all the lawyers.
If we do a regional kind of configuration which would have been talking about doing with Jackson
Calhoun and the Witt County's plus refurio and golyad.
All the counties that are in the 24th judicial district.
Victoria would be the hub.
And all the lawyers would be here in Victoria.
And they would drive out to wherever Judge Marries.
Hold the court.
Okay.
That's what you referring.
Okay.
So.
But ideally.
I mean hopefully we'll do the budget the way we would normally do.
We would have an investigator out and who lives in.
And she would be traveling locally within Jackson County.
Handling their cases locally.
Interviewing witnesses interviewing clients and that kind of thing.
And then periodically drive into Victoria for staff meetings and that sort of thing.
That kind of travel would be Jackson County's budget.
Not Victoria.
Okay.
So.
One other question.
And is.
Let's say it all in the attorney.
In practice of the third years.
And I join you.
Then I can I get my own cases.
So there is a state law that says that if you work for a public defender.
You're not supposed to take criminal cases on the side.
But you can operate a civil practice as much as you'd like.
That's so that you don't have the conflict of.
You know, get.
That would set up some incentives where you're your private paying criminal clients are kind of competing with.
The public.
I think the policy.
Policy for.
TRLA is, you know, moonlight and you have full full time attorneys.
That's generally.
I mean we do have some part time.
Well, yours.
Or have a.
A side practice.
But that's.
Quite the exception probably five percent of the lawyers.
Okay.
Thank.
I'm not.
Advocate is not saying to $250,000.
But if we wait on this a year to see.
Has any numbers come out.
Is that any kind of black mark or.
Put it to the bottom of the list.
Whatever.
I would say it's black mark.
I mean, I guess my suggestion was to.
You say down with your district attorney and another stakeholders.
And just map out based on.
I mean, I guess you got a few months in.
Of the new.
Administration.
I mean, you can certainly do this.
I mean, I don't want to leave the impression that the window will close forever or.
That kind of what I was getting.
I'm just, you know, what the word.
Well, I guess.
Let me ask this.
If I know we can.
In our contracts at the max threshold of cases.
We could build into our assumption of whatever percent decline.
And lower that maximum.
And have that reflected in the contract amount.
I presume is that.
May it be doable.
So I can tell you that.
The counties that we've worked with in partnership with TRLA.
The new public defenders had basically said.
All non-conflict cases go with their program.
Just for simplicity.
They're conflict.
Basis and.
Family law cases.
Outside of the program.
Sometimes the taxes have public defenders.
A fleet costment is one example of.
And more taxes.
Where.
And that.
But the county operates a public defender.
The county staff attorneys and.
And the best.
Here's where they only take.
I believe 50.
Every other case.
Or two thirds of the cases.
So you can.
You can choose to set the scope of the program.
At any level that you decide.
I think.
From what we've heard from TRLA.
The communist.
Of course, the savings is going to be.
To.
The percentage of the cases they go in the program.
But the scope of.
Of a program like this is ultimately.
What you decide.
You want to do.
I think that.
The.
The level of savings is going to be.
In fact, by that.
And I think that.
You know, as I said, your.
Your program.
Typically.
As.
As operated on the assumption that they're.
Covering the line share in the cases.
Just.
But.
Cohesiveness.
Simplicity.
We're flexible.
Okay.
Very good.
I saw Judge Gill and walk in.
Any thoughts, Judge?
I know we've.
You've looked at the somewhat previously.
Um.
Well, and I don't know what all was said this morning.
I guess the only comment that I was.
But I was thinking about is that.
I know we have a new administration.
The A's office.
And I didn't know on the economics of it.
I shouldn't let that work out like another year or so.
At least and see where we're at.
Then because then.
Because it's.
It's.
Of.
That.
It's.
That.
the grants that are part of that, understand that, and, but I don't know where that's headed
that's gonna be there forever and off. I know there was a discing order on that.
What is it? How much is it for first here? 80%.
It was 40.
No, 80.
60.
50?
No.
80 60.
I mean assuming it.
60.
OK.
So 80, 60.
That was my only thoughts.
Is it, you let it out?
Let it, I mean, pan out.
Why?
At least it here.
I mean, you've been here in a half, something like that.
You see what will really happen.
And then, you make the oil.
They better decision that.
I think I'll put that to cover.
Number.
Thank you, Judge. All right, any other comments?
I have one more. One thing you might consider, if, you know, Judge, is Gilam is, I think,
got a valid point. You might think about reviewing rather than an annually, reviewing these
numbers quarterly. That's probably not too much of a administrative burden for everybody.
But if there are some traumatic changes, rather than four go $7,800,000 of savings in the next fiscal year,
go ahead and opt into the program, start those savings running.
And then, if you don't like the numbers you're seeing, we might adjust much as we go, but do it on a quarterly basis.
And see, what plays out?
It is the, and I can remind you, y'all heard, y'all are presently in about 10 pounds.
That's correct. The phone I have is, let's assume that they continue to cover more and more counties,
which I think is a free-actual.
And then, you know, I think we're going to get one for the covering, maybe 30 counties, 40 counties,
60 have to stay.
My question would be, and I doubt that the answer to it.
You know, will the state set be quite so willing to pay a 50% grant to have the counties in the state of Texas?
At a certain point, that number is going to get too large.
Somebody in Austin can't do it at home.
It almost seems as the organization moves that becomes more successful.
Ultimately, that number, that grant percentage, almost, asking them that number.
All right.
Thank you, sir. Are there thoughts?
Oh, there's that.
So, TADC does not have a very long list of counties that are interested in stepping up to do this kind of a program.
So, Senator Colkors is introduced to build.
It's currently funding the legislature.
In fact, I think that hearing is coming up, maybe this week, sometimes.
That is really, as a way for the state to provide assistance more targeted to work smaller counties,
for rural counties, or under $100,000.
As directed as to build, when directed as to a private work side of these kinds of programs in our funding.
I think that when our commission reviews grants request,
in counties that are interested in this kind of program,
there are key in the aware of the available resources,
and have never over-extended itself, so let's be a thing on that.
So, I don't think that there's any substantial risk of the commission being overwhelmed by requests for counties to implement programs.
In terms of the likelihood of the 50% sustainability fund being there for the county down the road,
legislature adopts a budget every two years.
They owned out the budget 10 years out.
But our budget at TADC, for next year, for the next biennium,
is they're adding $18 million in the baseline budget for our program,
which the commission is prioritizing for these types of programs.
So, I think that the third say a reasonable expectation of the sustainability fund,
which has been in place for five years now, has, you know,
will continue.
So, that's right.
I can't make any promises on behalf of the executive legislator,
but I can say that our budget is stable or grown,
and that we've not been able to go on board.
Gotcha.
Okay.
Thank you. All right.
Any other comments before we move on?
Anybody in the audience that would like to?
I know you all have been a ton of work in time,
and we're apologize, but we have to be perceived as caution,
because it's a lot better to, instead of just jump and end this up then,
and then say, and oh hell, we've got to back out.
That would leave a bad taste.
I would thank in the dollars mine for future funding.
But from our perspective, we want to work with the county firms,
so they make the right kind of decisions.
I don't get any commission on, on, they have a health insurance concern.
They've just been a good partner that the commission has,
that's usually good results with.
So, that's why we partner with online programs.
If the commission, if the commission's court is still looking at data,
we want to be a resource for you all.
We want to ensure that all we want to,
because they need to work with the numbers,
you know, for get it as accurate a projection as possible,
but whatever you need, we want to be available pretty well
as you look at your options, and let us know
how we can handle it.
Wonderful. Well, we will, and certainly appreciate
you all's time this morning driving in, and we would like to see
if we can hire a 53-year-old lawyer.
All right, very good.
Well, thank you all once again.
Appreciate you being here.
Thank you.
Ron, thanks for stopping, stopping by, also.
I won't give a time mark.
Oh, yeah.
The floor is still on your mark.
Oh, all right.
Your contact information?
Okay.
Thank you.
Appreciate it.
Thanks a lot, Constance.
Mr. White, thank you, sir, for your comments.
Judge, thanks.
All right.
Well, that on our agenda was simply to hear presentation
and discuss, which we've done, and we'll continue to do.
We don't need to take any action on that.
We will move on to item number 10.
We see fully executed notice of Grant Award from Rebuild Texas
for the purpose of purchasing and renovating property at 311 East Constitution
Street Victoria, Texas, and authorized county judge to sign
necessary documents and take appropriate action.
Robin, we finally got, well, I guess, is this a final step in the process?
Yes.
Okay.
Excellent.
So we're simply receiving this.
Is there a motion to do some?
So move.
All those in favor?
All right.
Any opposed?
Second.
All right.
Motion approved.
Excellent.
Thank you, Robin.
Let's see.
Item number 11.
Receive notice of law enforcement, officer reimbursement program,
transportation security administration, award modification number
P-0-0-0-0-6, agreement number H-S-T-S-0-0-1-6-H-S-L-R-930
and take appropriate action.
Second.
All those in favor?
All right.
Any opposed?
Motion approved.
41,000.
Robin, what else?
Oh, no.
I was just going to, uh,
Lini had to leave.
He did make a call.
This is a larger allocation on this grant.
We got logic here.
For that time, Jerry.
So we made a call, uh,
T-T-S-A, and indicated that our flight schedule had increased.
And so, at least, we did, um,
apparently see, uh, increased after the end.
I have discussed about, um,
made some things for it.
So hopefully we'll get a little,
a little bit more on that in the future as well.
Very good.
Thank you.
Item number 12.
Radify rule, volunteer, fire department, assistant, program grant,
assistance, award case number 21-04.
Take appropriate action.
And Richard, what if we got here?
That was on the award for the, uh,
uh, for the four sons.
Okay.
26 of the one for the, uh, fire.
Thank you.
Very good.
Thank you, Richard.
All those.
All those in favor?
All right.
Any opposed?
Motion approved.
Item 13.
Receive annual fire safety inspection report for the Victoria region.
I'll juvenile justice center and take appropriate action.
Let's see, a copy of that report from Richard, in your packet, anything on that Richard?
Now, sir, everything you said to me, yes.
In fact, it's still in the bottom line.
It's still in the bottom line.
It did bark her along there.
They were really wild.
They were at the end of the 26th.
They'll do that.
Thank you.
Need or see?
Second.
All those in favor?
All right.
Any opposed?
Motion approved item-14.
Consider approval of a contract between Thompson,
Reuters, West Law, and Victoria County Criminal District,
to Attorney's Office, and take appropriate action.
Move for approval.
Second.
All those in favor?
All right.
Any opposed?
Motion approved.
Item number 15, consider approval of letter of request
from INAs volunteer fire department and take appropriate action.
Let's see.
Okay, so this is a request for $5,000.
It's going to be a request for $5,000 for their barn and new brush truck.
Their cost is $94,000.
This was one of those that we discussed when you came to our meeting.
The one prying in and break in.
So this is one of their requesting some assistance.
Okay.
Does come out of the assistant fund or not?
Yes, sir.
It comes out.
We have right now on the assistant fund at this time.
We have 41,439.
We'll have 36.
Okay.
So we simply draw that pre that already budgeted amount down.
Yes.
No.
Wonderful.
Move for approval.
Thank you.
All those in favor?
All right.
Any opposed?
Motion approved.
Thank you, Richard.
Again.
Item 16, consider approval of copyright
Your maintenance agreement between office systems and Victoria County Sheriff's Office
and take appropriate action.
Brandy is this a reading?
Who did put this on here?
This one was for Gina put it on there.
And if you approval for this one was, they said you have agreed to the copier class.
Okay.
So this is a new.
It's just our end only.
Amazing.
So we've already got this budgeted.
This is just the new agreement.
Okay.
Second.
All those in favor?
Any opposed?
Motion approved.
Item 17.
Received letter of permission to enter and work on private property and precinct one for the purpose
of drainage improvement.
Uncounty maintained roads and take appropriate action.
Let's talk to Commissioner Garcia this morning.
As I speak to this, it's just a standard letter permission of Mr. Rodriguez to enter his property
to alleviate drainage off of a county road.
Move for approval.
Second.
All those in favor?
Any opposed?
Motion approved.
Item 18.
Motion approved.
Item 18.
Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr.
Consider approval of payment to staff, concrete, construction and
connection to rabroad project precinct two and take appropriate action.
It's just for for a history.
Received approval.
Second.
All those in favor?
Any opposed?
Motion approved.
That staff that was for two was for embankments.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
How long is the project?
How many feet?
Oh.
You're out.
The thing for 250.
It was.
60 feet.
Total.
60 feet.
60.
I'm just looking at.
Fifteen.
Fifteen on each one.
Yeah.
And seven inches wide.
The tops.
With the footer.
I've got something coming up.
Yeah.
He's very easy.
Very reasonable.
Mr. Stavis.
Item number 19.
Any in consider approval of proposal from brand and haven.
In connection to spring, rich and grass land subdivision precinct to.
And take appropriate action.
All right.
Great.
Structed post seal.
Grass land is spring, rich.
I'm going to approve.
Second.
All those in favor?
Aye.
Any opposed?
Motion approved.
Item 20.
Consider approval of the following.
2019 budget amendments.
Take appropriate action.
All those in favor?
Aye.
Any opposed?
Motion approved.
Item 21.
Consider approval of personnel changes.
Take appropriate action.
My goal is you've got the summary.
And then detail on subsequent pages.
Move approval.
All those in favor?
Aye.
Any opposed?
Aye.
Any opposed?
Aye.
Any opposed?
Aye.
Any opposed?
Motion approved.
And item number 22.
Two is closed meeting pursuant to VTC Government Code 551.074 to discuss personnel various departments.
And VTC actually know that economic development will push that to next week.
So this is VTC 851074. For personnel and various departments, we will now go into closed session for that purpose.
The time is 1147 AM.
We are coming out of closed session at 113 PM for agenda item number 23, which is pursuant to VTC Government Code 551.102.
We turn to open meeting and take any action deemed necessary based upon discussion and closed meeting.
There is no decisions made in the closed meeting.
No action taken and no action that needs to be taken now. So we will adjourn at 113 PM.