1 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:25,840 okay good morning everyone I'd like to call this uh meeting to order we're in 2 00:00:22,199 --> 00:00:31,880 the council chambers of Wayne Fleet um is there any disclosure of Interest or 3 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:37,840 general nature thereof seeing 4 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:42,840 none we'll go on uh adoption of the agenda I need to move in a 5 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:46,200 second Scott Mr 6 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,120 Hoy all in 7 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:55,120 favor no okay we're 8 00:00:55,760 --> 00:01:06,680 good okay approval of minutes from June 17 202 9 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:11,080 for is any corrections or nothing all in favor of 10 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:15,119 approval it's carried okay I need a move in a second 11 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:23,720 on that Council Hoy coun uh CEO 12 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,720 Louie Scott 13 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:34,600 Scott all in favor that's approved 14 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:42,240 business arising from previous meetings comparators of shared services across 15 00:01:38,479 --> 00:01:48,640 Ontario Morgan you want to go to that sure through you Mr chair um what I've 16 00:01:45,119 --> 00:01:52,840 provided here um I was able to uh gather a list from the Ontario Association of 17 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:59,320 Fire Chiefs of municipalities that currently share um that share Fire 18 00:01:56,759 --> 00:02:05,880 Chiefs um not so much um full Amalgamated departments but just um that 19 00:02:02,159 --> 00:02:11,319 have a shared administrative role um some of which you'll see i' I've 20 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:15,959 provided um kind of a a commentary on some of the Lessons Learned um and some 21 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:20,959 of the the pros and cons of of the different models that have been utilized 22 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:26,480 um and then lastly also kind of some of the the natural progressions that has 23 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:30,200 occurred um you know over the the decade that some of these been that have been 24 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:33,959 used uh so for that I think I'll just look to the committee members if they 25 00:02:31,599 --> 00:02:38,879 have any questions of Staff then we can kind of review um and go forward from 26 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:51,280 there um sure through the chair to the chief um I I know about these examples 27 00:02:48,879 --> 00:02:57,080 from the past I just from my career I've been exposed to them and whatnot um but 28 00:02:54,920 --> 00:03:01,200 I think there's more that exist or have existed and sort of gone 29 00:02:59,920 --> 00:03:04,239 by the wayside in Ontario how did you choose this list was there a criteria 30 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:09,440 did you exclude some for reasons of practicality like 31 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:12,560 they didn't apply to our situation or they didn't uh have the same parameters 32 00:03:11,319 --> 00:03:17,680 that we're looking at or something like that or did you choose these as best 33 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:22,799 practices was there a criteria for that through you Mr chair no these are 34 00:03:20,519 --> 00:03:28,760 the ones that um utilize a shared Chief so the others 35 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:33,400 like Huntsville Lake a base they had used a shared chief model for years and 36 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:37,720 years and they have now gone to a fully Amalgamated system so that's why they 37 00:03:35,239 --> 00:03:42,519 were left off because the last meeting we talked about full amalgamation wasn't 38 00:03:40,239 --> 00:03:48,439 to be considered perfect uh appreciate that 39 00:03:45,159 --> 00:03:53,439 answer and then the second question probably my last one on this sorry 40 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:58,120 unless we get into it um a little deeper dive the comments are great and I 41 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:01,360 appreciate them the analysis I guess for lack of a better term but I just just 42 00:03:59,879 --> 00:04:06,400 going to ask you if they're all like how you uh how you got them 43 00:04:04,519 --> 00:04:11,720 basically I see the one from Perth and Perth East or West Perth and Perth he 44 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:18,680 says the fire chief there has provided comments from his experience there but 45 00:04:16,519 --> 00:04:22,560 the other ones don't say that did you reach out to each of these 46 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:26,800 municipalities and sort of survey uh sorry survey is probably not the best 47 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:31,639 inquire as to pros and cons and successes and pitfalls and so on to to 48 00:04:29,199 --> 00:04:35,479 get these comments the four pages of analysis yes is that how you did it so 49 00:04:33,639 --> 00:04:39,880 through you Mr chair yeah um in the case of Midland and penetang I actually 50 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:43,960 called the fire chief there uh directly um he's he's new to the role he's been 51 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:49,000 doing that shared role for about three years um they are they're almost at 10 52 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:52,840 years now um and they're currently going through a feasibility study um because 53 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:56,759 of the lessons learned through their their shared Chief role which I've 54 00:04:54,240 --> 00:05:01,520 highlighted here um in the in the case of West Perth Perth East that is 55 00:04:58,479 --> 00:05:06,639 literally um his email to me based on on the Lessons Learned uh in the case of 56 00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:12,240 West Niagara um I I spoke with with Chief Hudson there um and kind of the 57 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:16,759 lessons learned and then in the case of MTO Wellington and uh Wellington North 58 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:21,479 and mapon that's also I contacted uh Chief Chris Harrow and spoke about their 59 00:05:19,039 --> 00:05:25,639 Lessons Learned um and that's there and then Huntsville Lake of Bays um again 60 00:05:24,280 --> 00:05:29,720 that was um they've gone through a couple of Chiefs and the most recent one 61 00:05:28,039 --> 00:05:33,960 um was the one that that pushed uh forward the the amalgamation so those 62 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:40,120 are just that's just where the history of of the different models came 63 00:05:36,919 --> 00:05:42,800 from that's that's what I needed to know and I appreciate that I said one last qu 64 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:47,560 that would be the last question but then I remembered I was in uh February in an 65 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:54,360 no April in an elevator with a council member from uh from uh pretty sure it 66 00:05:52,280 --> 00:06:00,000 was Rockland um Rockland is also shared 67 00:05:57,199 --> 00:06:04,560 service right that is correct yes they they do have a shared Chief model yep 68 00:06:01,840 --> 00:06:09,440 right and uh through the chair the um I actually just I casually inquired how is 69 00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:13,440 it going and he said like best thing we've ever done or something to that 70 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:18,639 effect the reason I ask reason I tell you that story is do you in addition to 71 00:06:16,840 --> 00:06:23,240 these phone calls and and inquiries to these municipalities do you in your 72 00:06:20,919 --> 00:06:27,840 day-to-day or even when you go to a fire chief's conference or when you go to an 73 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:33,400 event where there's people gathered from all over Ontario do you hear about these 74 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:40,400 things these places and do you get Pros cons positive negative feedback on 75 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:45,080 them through the chair um yes when I do attend but to be honest it it this 76 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:51,000 particular topic hasn't really been on my radar up until March April of this 77 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:55,800 year so it's not really something that until I was asked to pursue um that I 78 00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:58,800 really started to get to get the information 79 00:06:59,759 --> 00:07:09,440 okay anyone else so I have a question for 80 00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:12,759 you so generally when you go to these fire 81 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:17,360 conferences and I don't know the fire industry at all but I do know the 82 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:20,280 industry I'm in and there's pros and cons and people look at things 83 00:07:18,879 --> 00:07:27,240 positively and negatively what is the overall 84 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:32,479 perception or a view of people joining up I would min IP alties working 85 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:37,840 together to try to have joint services like this is this something in general 86 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:45,159 that the fire industry doesn't like because they think it's going to cut 87 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:50,560 jobs or less jobs in their industry like what is is there a general 88 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:56,240 conception that that's what's going to happen in this so through you uh Mr 89 00:07:53,560 --> 00:08:01,639 chair uh there are 444 municipalities in the province of Ontario every single one 90 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:05,759 of them are unique and different um and with that what you have here is a 91 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:10,919 snapshot of those municipalities uh that have attempted it as I said some have 92 00:08:08,039 --> 00:08:15,919 moved on to full amalgamation um of the Chiefs that I've spoke to um they 93 00:08:13,919 --> 00:08:20,800 believe that this is the way forward um as we are all aware fire services are 94 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:27,000 becoming increasingly expensive to operate um and for smaller 95 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:33,599 municipalities um and for most that's why I think even regionalization I said 96 00:08:29,159 --> 00:08:38,399 it uh was a was a topic at one point um because at some point we have to 97 00:08:35,560 --> 00:08:44,159 understand that um while it is a municipal responsibility um through the 98 00:08:40,839 --> 00:08:47,680 fppa it is an an expensive one and as municipalities we need to do what's best 99 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:52,560 to deliver the services that our community expects and if that means that 100 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:56,440 having to share sometimes that's the best way forward okay thank 101 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:07,959 you okay span of responsibility comparatives to the other nager Regional 102 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,959 fire departments U I'll put 103 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:26,440 that um yeah I I think the the question here that was brought up to you Mr chair 104 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:31,920 um was about the ability for uh a shared management team to be able to handle um 105 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:37,079 a department as this and and yes I will admit as a chief you know having to uh 106 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:41,760 to deal with you know three Collective agreements two municipal councils two 107 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:47,920 municipal budgets um that is something that as the chief would have to manage 108 00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:51,160 uh but I think when you look at um kind of the span of responsibility that I 109 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:55,640 have here when you look at other municipalities whether it be population 110 00:09:53,480 --> 00:10:00,760 square kilometers the number of stations the size of Fleet the Personnel um it's 111 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:06,760 not impossible it's not out of the realm of 112 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:12,600 what's expected for a chief in or or an administrative team in today's day and 113 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:16,160 age um obviously there will be increased workload which is why you know the 114 00:10:14,279 --> 00:10:22,160 deputy and myself would not be able to do this just the two of us there would 115 00:10:18,079 --> 00:10:26,320 be additional uh resources required um but it's not impossible and that's 116 00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:30,519 that's what this was meant to show is when you compare what this model would 117 00:10:28,079 --> 00:10:36,240 look like to the other municipal alties um in in Department size and 118 00:10:33,680 --> 00:10:40,079 operation it's it is it is manageable 119 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:45,880 okay any questions Council H through the chair um 120 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:53,000 just a quick question I'm looking at Lincoln and Grimsby which they're doing 121 00:10:49,399 --> 00:10:59,639 they're doing shared right correct um so the Shar and the chief so you got 122 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:06,800 have a 0 five um they both have their separate uh Deputy Chiefs and 123 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:13,040 then together it'll be two fpos and then two training that's 124 00:11:09,639 --> 00:11:18,200 correct yep and they're dividing it up whatever percentage I imagine grimsby's 125 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:23,760 putting more of the bill than Lincoln right I would imagine well bigger 126 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:29,839 population I'm just trying to figure out how this would fit into port and Wayne 127 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:37,639 fleet's Uh situation um but if I look at the numbers the 128 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:44,680 population were like almost all except for 129 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:47,560 thoral don't have fulltime I'm just looking at the 130 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:55,880 averages here so um just had a question is 131 00:11:53,279 --> 00:12:02,800 this how we see it as bringing in uh dividing up the chief 132 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:06,440 and then bring in another deputy chief as one of the 133 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:13,519 options sorry what what is the question 134 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:17,440 counselor oh I'm just uh just trying to figure this out on how this work for us 135 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:21,440 so it'll be two Deputy Chiefs in Port I mean not Port but in the grouping and 136 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:28,079 then one yourself and then one 137 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:32,000 FP um is that the idea yeah so so the next the next um am I going ahead of 138 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:36,760 slide yeah yeah just just ahead yeah item C does talk about uh um the 139 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:39,360 financial options and what that orc chart would look 140 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:48,560 like okay so there's no more questions on Item B let's go to C and you can 141 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:51,560 answer that one yeah and I think I'll I'll look 142 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:59,160 to did you want to take this one mallerie up to 143 00:12:54,240 --> 00:13:02,680 you okay yeah um yeah so so the uh Treasures for both municipalities met 144 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:10,320 based on Council or the committee's direction um and did a a cost analysis 145 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:15,160 of the options um one being status quo as you know two chiefs two deputies two 146 00:13:12,279 --> 00:13:21,519 independent departments um option two would be one Chief and two deputies um 147 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:26,399 utilizing the port curn um pay grid scale uh option three is one Chief and 148 00:13:24,199 --> 00:13:31,560 two deputies using the Wayne Fleet pay grid and scale and then option four is 149 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:37,199 one Chief a deputy and an assistant Deputy also using the wne fleet grid um 150 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:42,680 the assistant Deputy you'll see when I when you look at the organizational 151 00:13:38,839 --> 00:13:47,560 chart uh I I hadn't um built that in it was just a model to show if if you did 152 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:53,360 want to have that extra layer of rank um the savings 153 00:13:49,279 --> 00:13:58,320 are it's about $88,000 per municipality uh in savings whereas uh you know for 154 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:01,519 the value for the value there it's it's option four 155 00:13:59,839 --> 00:14:06,440 doesn't really provide what I think we're looking for here um but two and 156 00:14:03,759 --> 00:14:10,440 three that's kind of where the the orc chart that you see behind uh is was 157 00:14:08,839 --> 00:14:14,279 built on and I guess really it's just the committee at this point the 158 00:14:11,639 --> 00:14:18,079 committee looking at options one two and three and what model best 159 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:31,560 works okay does uh we want to get Cameron to comment on this or no I don't 160 00:14:28,759 --> 00:14:35,360 think so so um through the chair to to the committee so just to comment on that 161 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:40,160 when the chief says Wayne fleets pay grid and pay scale versus poor C's pay 162 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:45,320 grid and pay scale that would mean that that municipality would be the employer 163 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:50,040 of the the group of administrative employees so um we can't have Port curn 164 00:14:48,519 --> 00:14:54,160 employees operating on the Wayne Fleet Grid or Wayne Fleet employees operating 165 00:14:51,639 --> 00:14:59,199 on the port curn grid um so just to keep that in mind when reviewing the options 166 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:03,000 um as well as so option two and option three at this point I guess we would be 167 00:15:00,519 --> 00:15:07,880 looking so the intent or our hope is that we can go to to council to a joint 168 00:15:05,759 --> 00:15:12,720 council meeting with a recommendation from this committee so if there are any 169 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:16,440 committee members that have maybe any options that they don't see here that 170 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:23,720 they would like to see in terms of a split or Personnel then we're happy to 171 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:29,199 take that back and and uh review and and come up with a different financial model 172 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,199 if that's what you see fit 173 00:15:32,839 --> 00:15:42,319 any questions through the chair uh my question is I'm looking at this and I 174 00:15:39,839 --> 00:15:45,399 see the two deputies it says Port curn so that's in the port curn 175 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:50,759 scale but what if one is in 176 00:15:50,839 --> 00:15:59,800 each cuz technically there should be someone in Port and there should some 177 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:05,480 definitely be someone in Wayne Fleet and besides where the chief will beting 178 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:11,600 this because in this um cost does it have the uh Chief also on there so 179 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:15,000 through the chair to councelor Hoy uh so it doesn't necessarily mean that that's 180 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:19,600 where the all of the employees are going to live it's just going to be you can't 181 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:24,240 they can't have two separate employers and with the financial modeling and with 182 00:16:22,079 --> 00:16:27,959 ports grid versus Wayne fleet's grid if one of them was an employee of port and 183 00:16:26,319 --> 00:16:32,720 two of them were an employee of Wayne Fleet there would be less cost savings 184 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:38,120 and likely the deputy would earn more than the chief which in a hierarchy 185 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:41,720 situation that doesn't exactly work so they would all have to be employees of 186 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:44,440 one municipality or the other that doesn't necessarily mean that that's 187 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:48,519 where their office will be that that's where their time will spent that that's 188 00:16:45,759 --> 00:16:52,920 how the time will be split up uh that is an operational thing that Council can 189 00:16:50,759 --> 00:16:57,959 have input on those levels of service this is purely the financial modeling 190 00:16:54,839 --> 00:17:01,480 and how it and how it has basically it doesn't necessar work out if that's not 191 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,639 the case and we're not looking at Apples to 192 00:17:07,959 --> 00:17:14,959 Apples yeah through the chair to I don't know the chief or maybe to councelor 193 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:19,039 hoy's comment like I'm in my position is unique because when I sit here I'm a 194 00:17:17,120 --> 00:17:22,679 Committee Member but when I sit in my council chambers I'm a Staff person 195 00:17:20,679 --> 00:17:27,439 who's giving a recommendation to my counil so obviously two different 196 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:32,280 functions not that I can't handle both I think I can but um 197 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:35,080 you know looking at these numbers are actually better than I thought they 198 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:41,400 would be 100,000 220,000 in savings but I'm not as 199 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:45,679 motivated by Financial savings like if I'm motivated by efficiency and 200 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:51,160 effectiveness of the service that we're going to deliver to both municipalities 201 00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:56,919 so if it's way way way better and it cost an extra Buck it's okay with 202 00:17:53,679 --> 00:18:01,400 me but if it saves 100,000 and it's not better it's worse I can't can't 203 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:04,159 recommend it to my Council I mean if if it saves someone like there's something 204 00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:09,799 there some Middle Ground there where if it saves a little bit and it stays the 205 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:15,320 same quality-wise but I want a I want a safe effective efficient fire department 206 00:18:12,559 --> 00:18:20,240 for both municipalities so my questions are more on the org chart if you if I 207 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:27,159 can take you there and to councelor Ho's Point Chief you have these two deputies 208 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:33,880 on this org chart divided by function uh rather than 209 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:38,440 say chief of you know in my mind's eye chief of Wayne Fleet and Port curn 210 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:42,480 deputy chief Wayne Fleet deputy chief Port curn that's a different model 211 00:18:40,159 --> 00:18:48,240 that's not expressed here I think is what he's asking if I can put words in 212 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:52,039 his mouth can you explain why you propos this model instead of that and I'll ask 213 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:55,039 a followup right away if that's okay chair 214 00:18:55,360 --> 00:19:03,039 um the uh in practical applic because we always design things but then we have to 215 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:07,480 go out and actually do them and when is the is the practical application the 216 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:11,919 same as we projected where will people be stationed managers like is there 217 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:17,679 office hours in both municipalities I guess is my follow-up question after you 218 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:22,200 answer the first one uh yeah through you Mr chair so this was built again based 219 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:26,919 on the lessons learned from previous municipality so when we look at the 220 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:30,960 Midland penetang model they did that penetang had their own Deputy Midland 221 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:37,000 had their own Deputy they were not cross-appointed only the chief was so in 222 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:40,840 the event and and although they had automatic Aid agreements if the deputy 223 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:45,280 of penetang came into Midland there was no authority to 224 00:19:42,919 --> 00:19:51,559 operate as an administrator as a deputy or there was no delegated authority as 225 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:56,159 Chief what that left is two very Standalone departments and that that 226 00:19:53,400 --> 00:20:00,600 duplication of efforts still occurred in penetang the deputy chief was 227 00:19:58,159 --> 00:20:05,159 responsible for fire prevention training coordination all of that no different 228 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:08,039 than the deputy of of penet Tang machine that's where those that's where the 229 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:12,559 savings would be is reducing that duplication and having 230 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:17,120 that Specialties so when we look at the MTO Willington North model that's 231 00:20:15,039 --> 00:20:22,080 exactly the the approach they took is it is a shared administrative team with 232 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:27,400 individuals having Specialties that all municipalities have access to regardless 233 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:31,520 of wherever they work from right I mean even Gathering most of this putting this 234 00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:34,720 report together half my time was spent at my waylet office half my time and you 235 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:39,120 can ask the crews was spent at my port office it doesn't matter where we work 236 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:44,440 from as long as there's presence and as long as there's as long as the work is 237 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:49,559 getting done and so in in this model where we have a chief and two deputies 238 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:53,400 there is the opportunity for a deputy to be stationed at each and the chief to go 239 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:58,360 whichever way the wind blows or his schedule takes them but same thing with 240 00:20:56,039 --> 00:21:02,240 the depuy's role if the training officer has to be in port curn on a Tuesday to 241 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:06,120 prep or Monday that's where the deputy chief of training is if he has to be in 242 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:10,960 Monday in port or in way Fleet on Monday then that's where he is it it there has 243 00:21:08,559 --> 00:21:16,240 to be flow and flux to make sure that both municipalities are receiving the 244 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,240 services of all 245 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,840 three any other further 246 00:21:24,559 --> 00:21:32,440 questions uh through the chair just going back to this zorg chart um and I 247 00:21:29,559 --> 00:21:35,480 think I'm just maybe ask maybe I just want you to State the obvious these 248 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:40,120 aren't all different people these are responsibilities that flow under so 249 00:21:38,159 --> 00:21:44,600 deputy chief both sides left and right are 250 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:49,919 people uh suppression down here are people but these other ones are 251 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:55,600 functions that fall under the two silos or or maybe that's not the best word uh 252 00:21:52,919 --> 00:21:59,799 the two halves of the department are two separate sides right there's not there's 253 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:03,720 not 30 people working through the chair that is correct yes so so that is that 254 00:22:01,799 --> 00:22:09,600 is the roles and responsibilities that each individual would that's the kind of 255 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,600 their portfolio of their 256 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,200 position any further 257 00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:37,760 questions Bri anybody nope we're good there let's go 258 00:22:31,919 --> 00:22:37,760 down uh we'll go to D to final survey 259 00:22:39,039 --> 00:22:47,520 responses so we'll put you on the seat again for that one more yeah um through 260 00:22:44,559 --> 00:22:51,679 the chair um the what I've done here is I've taken the the results of the 261 00:22:48,919 --> 00:22:57,720 surveys and I've I've kind of put them in in order of question that you guys 262 00:22:54,440 --> 00:23:00,720 can can visually review the results um I I don't think I'm going to go through 263 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:05,440 every question we we'd be here till noon but if the if the committee members have 264 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:08,279 questions or comments themselves um of the results that that might have piqued 265 00:23:07,039 --> 00:23:10,520 your interest we can certainly have those 266 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,760 discussions any 267 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:24,000 questions okay so I'll start on this one then on your ranked 268 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:29,480 questions I really didn't like the way that was set up because there was 269 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:36,320 probably three things that I agreed at their importance but I couldn't rank 270 00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:41,120 the three of them the same so now you fighting with yourself where do I want 271 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:46,200 to put this and where is this more important to me than this and this and 272 00:23:44,159 --> 00:23:54,480 some things that I thought were equally as important ended up being 273 00:23:49,559 --> 00:24:00,720 Place third which to me was wrong and then on mine I kind of asked that it be 274 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:04,520 separated for wayle Council Port counsel Wayne Fleet volunteers Port volunteers 275 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:08,640 and Port full-time just so I get a better idea who was 276 00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:14,840 doing what you can pretty well tell what it was reading this thing but like I 277 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:19,480 said the U I think some of it would be skewed on the council side more than 278 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:23,640 anywhere when you were trying to rate you know is equipment more important 279 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:28,159 than cost or is cost more important than training and right 280 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:32,159 so when I was doing it I had a struggle try trying to get things where I thought 281 00:24:30,679 --> 00:24:36,279 they should be instead of you know all of them being a four right it was you 282 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:41,640 started with a four and some of them ended up at a two which wasn't way they 283 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:47,520 probably should have been but that's my was part of my struggle doing that so 284 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:53,679 I don't know if anybody else has any comments or questions 285 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:59,080 or to the chair um my biggest thing is you can tell 286 00:24:55,760 --> 00:25:06,360 that I'll say this nicely but just run like employees that may have an 287 00:25:03,399 --> 00:25:14,200 issue with all this it's noted in here you can see it it's a lack of this lack 288 00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:18,120 of that and all that um obviously I do agree that uh Staffing shortages well 289 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:23,679 definitely important but there's not enough 290 00:25:19,799 --> 00:25:27,799 volunteers at all and training yeah I've already heard lots of training I hear 291 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:34,120 even training now uh from volunteers that it's 292 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:39,000 still not there so um I don't know if 293 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:42,720 it's I like the charts I like the information I just don't know if 294 00:25:41,159 --> 00:25:48,679 it's cuz where I work at the state you're 295 00:25:45,679 --> 00:25:52,760 always going to get employees views of their own 296 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:58,919 and kind of like Shades what you're trying to get um I do get worried about 297 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:04,960 the training I do get worried about like comments like 298 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:09,240 attitude intimidation from full-timers I mean I hope that's not true I just hope 299 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:16,520 it just someone that was just happened to be upset but that kind 300 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:23,000 of doesn't sit well of me lack of leadership well we already knew that was 301 00:26:19,679 --> 00:26:29,360 there prior to even you coming on board right so I just trying to figure 302 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:32,120 out where of this would be the most benefit that I can bring back to my 303 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:37,679 fellow counselors to say what I would support 304 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:43,520 at the end of the day so it's not really a question I just taken a survey of how 305 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:49,360 this was uh conducted and I just think it's more of how the person feels and 306 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:55,520 it's probably not the best to evaluate on 307 00:26:51,320 --> 00:27:02,679 that so if I can and then the chief no no offense taken um when I started here 308 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:06,320 six years ago getting close to that that was our biggest complaint in town was 309 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:11,240 training lack of training no training we were had the ministry coming down ready 310 00:27:08,919 --> 00:27:17,039 to pretty well shut down our fire department it takes time to get the 311 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:21,480 training there you you know if our culture had 312 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:24,640 none now if I read this you can almost tell the guys from wng Fleet that said 313 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:28,679 we've got enough training we have enough training it's getting the guys to go to 314 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:35,159 the training is the problem it I am sure with Chief alock will have 315 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:40,120 the same Pro same issues in Port cin they'll have the opportunity to train 316 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:43,600 they'll have all of that it'll be how do we get the guys how do we make it 317 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:49,320 mandatory that they show up and take the training and that'll have to come from 318 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,679 that steering committee I think I'll have to put some rules in that the guys 319 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:57,720 have to get there and they have to show up for so much of it because he can beat 320 00:27:55,919 --> 00:28:02,360 his head against the wall and Sean and you're new deputy chief but if we don't 321 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,720 force that the guy show up but it all takes time to get there and I mean 322 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:09,960 reading ours I think we you've done a great job 323 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:15,679 so far so it'll happen there in Port as well it 324 00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:15,679 just takes 325 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:23,880 time I guess through through the chair if I if I can be next I I have a lot to 326 00:28:21,519 --> 00:28:28,559 say and I don't know what order I should say it all in but uh I can I the survey 327 00:28:26,519 --> 00:28:32,240 it's tough for me to go through I I I appreciate all this feedback and the 328 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:37,880 firefighters from both municipalities who participated but uh and it's clearly 329 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:43,840 there's a lot of emotion and passion about this this and I'm not afraid to 330 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:47,279 say that probably this could have been handled better on the poort colr side of 331 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:52,120 things I think one of the problems that I was dealing with as staff was the 332 00:28:48,799 --> 00:28:56,360 suddenness of it I can tell you that um like I have in my email a report about 333 00:28:54,840 --> 00:29:00,200 there's three things happening at once shared services 334 00:28:58,679 --> 00:29:03,360 there's a labor issue in pork hurn around a grievance because of the not 335 00:29:01,679 --> 00:29:06,919 replacing of a union firefighter that's a separate and apart issue the third 336 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:14,559 issue was our chief left and we had no Chief and we had to get one within 10 337 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:17,600 days yeah so you know but I can when you they're kind of conflated into the 338 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:21,480 answers of the survey sometimes I think that person's 339 00:29:19,799 --> 00:29:26,360 answering a question about one but bringing in some passion about the other 340 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:31,039 not to dispute that that's it's someone's reality and to your point 341 00:29:27,679 --> 00:29:36,200 councelor o about you hope it's not true about one of those comments it's true 342 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:40,080 for one person and if that's their perception then they're living that 343 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:44,000 every day that's their reality uh might not be the other 10 you know people on 344 00:29:42,039 --> 00:29:49,960 the shift or or couple of shifts but having said that one volunteer feels 345 00:29:46,039 --> 00:29:53,559 that way what I'm building to is I have in my email maybe it's not fair to 346 00:29:51,399 --> 00:29:58,760 divulge but uh to to share with people but I can tell you I have a report that 347 00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:02,200 Chief Lawson was working on from heck October or November about shared 348 00:30:00,519 --> 00:30:09,000 services he was designing a shared service model for for um Wayne Fleet and 349 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:12,919 Port curn he was also designing one for a bigger group that included other 350 00:30:10,519 --> 00:30:17,679 municipalities like this work was taking place under previous administrations 351 00:30:15,679 --> 00:30:21,640 watch it's not something that happened all of a 352 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:25,440 sudden uh the second thing though and and and maybe we should have engaged the 353 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:32,279 city at Port curn at least should have engaged our workers our empy emploees in 354 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:36,279 both unions better um but then what happened the next trigger was Chief 355 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:39,600 Lawson saying he's leaving and me having to quickly write a staff report and 356 00:30:37,799 --> 00:30:42,640 quickly engage the two presidents of the two associations they weren't given and 357 00:30:41,519 --> 00:30:45,840 one of them here today they weren't given a lot of notice about that 358 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:50,640 happening but I didn't have a lot of notice either um the third thing that I 359 00:30:48,039 --> 00:30:53,279 want to say uh so so I don't know if there's an opportunity to go back 360 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:58,039 because what I'm reading in here is some of the passion but I'm also reading a 361 00:30:54,720 --> 00:31:01,000 lot of lack of understanding uh maybe not having all of the information 362 00:30:59,799 --> 00:31:06,399 because there's some things in these answers that are just not 363 00:31:04,039 --> 00:31:10,840 correct but they're based on somebody not having been told what is correct 364 00:31:08,639 --> 00:31:14,880 right you can't you can't answer a question sometimes if nobody told you 365 00:31:12,519 --> 00:31:18,080 what's going on and heck maybe the mayor and the CIO should have stood on the 366 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:24,880 floor of the fire hall and addressed the fire department workers before before 367 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:28,799 this whole thing took place setting that aside we can't change the past but we 368 00:31:26,519 --> 00:31:33,039 can do better moving forward the trouble I have with the survey is if everybody 369 00:31:30,799 --> 00:31:38,120 knows what a bell curve is you know usually you have most of the people 370 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:42,799 agree you whether it's 80% of the people or 50% of the people and then it it sort 371 00:31:40,159 --> 00:31:46,639 of streams down from there the answers here are so extreme sometimes you know a 372 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:51,200 person says we have a totally unsafe situation a person says we have a we 373 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:55,679 have great safety it's a reverse bell curve almost where there's extremes and 374 00:31:53,600 --> 00:32:00,960 people who are on extremes and it makes it hard to take the survey result 375 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:04,080 forward in any kind of decision making capacity I think everything in here 376 00:32:02,519 --> 00:32:11,200 should be considered in our decision- making but uh did I just get louder did 377 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:16,480 somebody do that sounds um but it's hard to say you know 80% of survey respondant 378 00:32:14,159 --> 00:32:20,720 want this so let's do it and and so the numbers aren't there in a 379 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:25,679 magnitude that uh that I think is actionable but I 380 00:32:23,559 --> 00:32:29,679 think there's definitely lessons that need to be learned from what people have 381 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:34,840 shared with us in both municipalities and on the full-time and the volunteer 382 00:32:32,279 --> 00:32:39,600 side in Port curn so I appreciate that but that's my comments for uh and maybe 383 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:43,880 unbundle those three separate issues that are affecting port colr at least 384 00:32:41,679 --> 00:32:49,720 and maybe both because I think they need to be on three separate paths but I 385 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,720 understand there's some crossover 386 00:32:53,159 --> 00:32:59,840 here okay anybody else no we're good 387 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:09,279 okay item six new business terms of reference review of the term of the 388 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:17,639 committee um who wants to take that one 389 00:33:14,159 --> 00:33:23,559 ier uh so through the chair to to all of the committee so I guess the Hope was 390 00:33:20,519 --> 00:33:27,440 that we Wayne fleet's Council breaks over the summer so the term is going to 391 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:32,080 like the the current term is going to come to 392 00:33:28,639 --> 00:33:36,159 expiration August August 8th so our Hope was that with the the placeholder for 393 00:33:34,559 --> 00:33:40,480 the joint council meeting next week Our Hope was that the committee could at 394 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:47,039 least come up with a preferred option to recommend to both councils uh if or to 395 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:51,519 or to recommend against and or we need to extend the agreement again as I 396 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:55,399 mentioned in previous meetings like continually extending it with no light 397 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:59,360 at the end of the tunnel is not sustainable for the chief or deputy uh 398 00:33:58,039 --> 00:34:03,840 we don't want them to get burned out because then neither municipality will 399 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:08,159 be in a favorable position um but in the short term if we are working towards an 400 00:34:05,519 --> 00:34:12,359 option or the committee has direction for us to go back and consider a third 401 00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:17,440 Financial option or if we have a preference to a financial option um then 402 00:34:15,879 --> 00:34:21,760 we're looking for that direction and then we would have to rec make a 403 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:27,359 recommendation to the to both councils to extend um just based on our Council 404 00:34:24,919 --> 00:34:30,079 schedule it doesn't align before the expiration a 405 00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:41,560 date any suggestions Scott so yeah uh to the chair you know we're we're making 406 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:46,760 progress we're making slow progress I think we're eventually going to end up 407 00:34:43,359 --> 00:34:51,960 with a recommendation to at least from me to my Council and from 408 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:58,240 your CEO to your Council about an option to pursue that could be no change in the 409 00:34:54,480 --> 00:35:01,599 way we operate uh status quo po colr will have to figure out uh a replacement 410 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,760 Fire Chief and whether or not they're going to replace the deputy chief that's 411 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:11,359 a political decision that will be made by Council um or if one of the three 412 00:35:09,359 --> 00:35:15,599 other options on the screen are going to be pursued that's not going to be 413 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:21,680 decided today that's not going to be decided on Wednesday on uh I think it's 414 00:35:18,359 --> 00:35:25,800 July 17th the proposed 16th the The Joint meeting of council that we're 415 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:31,119 holding a date for but where we end up with a administrative problem is Port 416 00:35:28,599 --> 00:35:37,240 curn still needs that shared service the temporary coverage while the recruitment 417 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:43,720 is on hold for a full-time permanent replacement Chief so 120 days you know 418 00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:48,800 sitting there looking down the calendar at March 31st seemed like a lot of time 419 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:54,720 here we sit at 95 days or whatever it is and it wasn't a lot of time so I 420 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:58,560 guess you know even if was Wayne Fleet or sorry P curn was to post the position 421 00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:05,040 it would probably be 10 to to 12 weeks before a person could assume the 422 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:08,680 position uh be recruited hired presumably give notice to their former 423 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:14,880 employer that they're going to be leaving and going to port curn and so on 424 00:36:11,720 --> 00:36:21,240 so that's 3 months 12 weeks is 3 months August 8th plus 3 months is uh you know 425 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:26,119 the end of October basically 426 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:31,000 um but we have to have more meetings like I guess I don't know I looked at 427 00:36:28,839 --> 00:36:37,839 the chief could we say September 30th like almost like two 428 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:42,079 dates a date for the committee's work to be done and a recommendation to be 429 00:36:39,359 --> 00:36:48,640 before Council and then a date to extend the shared the temporary 430 00:36:45,599 --> 00:36:52,079 coverage until which should be 3 months past when Council makes a decision if 431 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:58,000 you know what I mean um through you Mr chair yeah I I 432 00:36:55,240 --> 00:37:03,160 think at this point knowing that one month to the day from the end of this 433 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:08,839 term um I see no reason why we can't just extend to another two months so 434 00:37:05,599 --> 00:37:13,119 October 8th but at some point I think the committee is going to have to make 435 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:19,760 its decision and recommendation to the Joint Council so I mean the next 436 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:24,280 thing we have action items that that the committee is supposed to work on after 437 00:37:21,319 --> 00:37:28,200 this so I think what is the action items that staff like what is what is the 438 00:37:25,599 --> 00:37:32,800 committee's plan and schedu SCH to provide a report to 439 00:37:30,079 --> 00:37:37,720 councils and if it's not the 17th if it's some point in August like that's 440 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:42,200 what the committee needs to decide is what's its plan forward before I just 441 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:48,400 arbitrarily set two months as the date like what is what is our what is our 442 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,400 revised work plan what is our 443 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:59,560 schedule any suggestions thoughts so through the chair I guess 444 00:37:57,599 --> 00:38:05,560 what is there any information that the committee feels that they need prior to 445 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,560 us being able to make a 446 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:11,520 recommendation just so we can work backwards from that in terms of a 447 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:15,880 timeline because if there's if we feel like we have all the information 448 00:38:13,599 --> 00:38:23,040 that that we need I don't know how many more meetings we need prior to us being 449 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:23,040 able to craft a recommendation 450 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:34,520 so um I'll look at it we've got the financials here and where we supposed to 451 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:38,680 go if we look at all the other municipalities 452 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:42,680 eventually most of them ended up in an amalgamation but it was 10 years and 453 00:38:40,599 --> 00:38:48,560 that's kind of what we talked about originally was in the 5 to 10 year range 454 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:53,119 because people have to get their heads wrapped around it and they have to see 455 00:38:50,079 --> 00:38:58,200 that it'll work right so if the population of Port Cobrin we do this 456 00:38:55,240 --> 00:39:03,400 joint in 5 years from now they haven't 457 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:07,160 seen anything go backwards it's all moved forwards and Wayne fleet has done 458 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:13,599 the same thing you know they talked about your um loyalty to the the the 459 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:17,920 department you're with but it would be a new Department then right that you would 460 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:21,400 go to so you know whether you work for the town of way Fleet or the city of 461 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:26,800 Port kobin you're now going to work for a joint fire department so you'll have 462 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:32,520 you should be able to mix in over the five years and know this is coming to 463 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:37,800 figure it out or 10 years if that's what it takes it's I think we just look 464 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:42,960 at which one of these is going to give us the best service I'm kind of of the 465 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:47,680 same mind as Scott I I care about what it costs us but I 466 00:39:45,599 --> 00:39:51,640 really want to make sure that we get the right service for the people and nothing 467 00:39:49,319 --> 00:39:57,960 goes backwards from what we have today right we were as Wayne Fleet as I said 468 00:39:55,640 --> 00:40:03,040 six years ago we're in tough sh shap we're in good shape now I don't want to 469 00:40:00,319 --> 00:40:08,240 see us go backwards did it cost us money it cost us a lot of money to get here 470 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:12,880 right and your training side of it will cost you a bunch of money if that's what 471 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:18,839 it really is to get there right if that's or if it's just somebody's nose 472 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:24,280 how a joint I'm not sure is Council H said but the idea is to try and make 473 00:40:22,319 --> 00:40:27,960 something that works for both communities and is better for the 474 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:31,640 general public and that's what we have to do I think the 475 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,520 information is here yeah there's going to be hiccups there's going to be things 476 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:38,359 that go wrong but I think we have the information is 477 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:42,880 just to decide how we're going to go with this and financially in the setup 478 00:40:41,079 --> 00:40:47,800 right like Morgan says he's going to spend two days here and three days there 479 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:52,520 and next week he's 4 days here because the wind blew him this way for for 480 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:57,800 things that went wrong right or somebody was off or there was a an Emergency 481 00:40:54,760 --> 00:41:03,040 there's always I like to say work I put out fires but I can't say that all about 482 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:06,839 Morgan because that's what he's doing but there's always something that goes 483 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:12,560 wrong and you have to put all your attention to it to fix it right so um 484 00:41:10,319 --> 00:41:16,359 yeah I get it some days you'll be some weeks you'll be more time here some 485 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:21,200 weeks we won't even see you but that's okay as long as the work's getting done 486 00:41:18,079 --> 00:41:24,240 and we're covered right I'm not naive enough to think that you're going to go 487 00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:29,119 over to Pork cin and work for them all the time and we'll get nothing right but 488 00:41:26,359 --> 00:41:34,720 I do know it's going to go both ways and I think that's we just have to get 489 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:41,599 Council to look at it that way and maybe there has to be some chatter from us to 490 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:46,680 the councilors and so yeah through the chair I agree uh 491 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:52,319 100% I know you know going back to the survey some of the questions that were 492 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:57,160 answered um speak about things like how could one person be the chief of two 493 00:41:54,760 --> 00:42:00,200 municipalities or or will there be burn burn out and things like this but there 494 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:04,440 are places in Ontario where they didn't get a choice you know in Hamilton which 495 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:08,560 was Amalgamated I don't know if it was six departments or some number of 496 00:42:05,839 --> 00:42:12,079 departments into one Chief The Province said go figure it out you only have one 497 00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:17,560 Chief now and they made it work we have a chance here to make our own choice 498 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:23,920 instead of having it forced upon us and build the the system um if we decide to 499 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:26,960 go down that path I think my as a Committee Member now taking off my staff 500 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:30,480 hat and putting on my Committee Member hat 501 00:42:28,599 --> 00:42:37,720 I I would like to direct staff to sort of come back with one of these two 502 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:40,440 options you know in my mind I this is an awkward part of the conversation is the 503 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:44,520 chief is here and he's the one who's going to be earning the pay and we can 504 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:49,680 see that the pay is different depending on how it works but if it's option two 505 00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:53,160 port curn and I guess there's a question of who sharing with whom who's the 506 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:56,559 shareer and who's the share e but at the end of the day when it's over there's 507 00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:01,480 something that I'd like people to be able to wrap head around if it is 508 00:42:59,119 --> 00:43:05,319 pursued the person is the chief the person is the chief of Port curn the 509 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:10,079 person is the chief of Wayne Fleet it's not Port cbr's Chief is over here today 510 00:43:08,359 --> 00:43:15,240 it's not Wing fleet's deputy chief is over here today they are the fire 511 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:21,440 Administration so one of these two options and of course still bringing 512 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:27,800 forward status quo I don't think I don't favor assistant Deputy I I like the 513 00:43:23,839 --> 00:43:33,880 equality of two deputies and and start to funnel those down into 514 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:39,559 building pros and cons for both models for both councils to consider 515 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:45,480 so if it's if it's a motion I would move that we that we ask staff to continue 516 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:50,440 working on option one and option two MH which is Port curn as the employer with 517 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:53,920 a 60/40 split I don't know if we want to talk about that more if there's a 518 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:59,040 seconder or what have you but I think we need to funnel down to what's going to 519 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:59,040 be before both count 520 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:09,599 if it's not time yet to decide so through the chair to the CIO it could be 521 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:13,800 the first three options but again making progress towards narrowing down the 522 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:19,040 options having pros and cons knowing the benefit of of each one but as well as 523 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:23,280 the pitfalls and maybe some more engagement of of fir so like obviously 524 00:44:22,079 --> 00:44:28,400 from the survey this is one thing I didn't say sorry I'm rambling a bit from 525 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:31,839 this survey po curn has some morale and culture issues that need to be addressed 526 00:44:30,839 --> 00:44:36,160 they're going to have to be addressed regardless of what models pursued and 527 00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:39,839 regardless of who's sitting in that seat um you know we don't live in a world 528 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:45,720 where the sailors get to choose the captain but maybe they should have some 529 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:50,680 voice because they do have skin in the game and do have to live with the 530 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,680 permanent 531 00:44:53,880 --> 00:45:03,680 structure through the chair if I could get also the uh the splitting uh for 532 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:11,400 option two and three the the chief's wage added to that in that number for 533 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:15,400 option two and three just I like an overview of a whole model through the 534 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:17,839 chair the chief's wage is included in this 535 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:25,800 yes so through the chair just for clarity that's one Chief two deputies 536 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:31,280 salary and benefits and no Administration no 537 00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:38,800 Arial through the chair to Scott yes that's correct it's uh the fire chief is 538 00:45:33,839 --> 00:45:44,800 in every option and two deputies and no admin so that's already included the 539 00:45:41,119 --> 00:45:48,440 numbers you're showing us yeah yeah okay because when you look at it it doesn't 540 00:45:46,079 --> 00:45:52,000 really say that so that's why I I thought when I was reading it that it 541 00:45:50,079 --> 00:45:55,000 was all there but I just wanted to make sure 542 00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:03,559 okay so we need a motion 543 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:12,200 to got made the motion I'll second the motion okay for staff to come back with 544 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:19,720 a more streamlined pros and cons approach with 545 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:19,720 options one to three okay all in 546 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:24,480 favor we got that 547 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,400 any other 548 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:39,359 comments uh through the through the chair to to Chief um it just popped into 549 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:44,599 my head and maybe I maybe it's small potatoes but uh because I was looking at 550 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:48,680 the breakdown of the costs that were included as 551 00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:52,480 you I mean Council needs as much information as possible the committee 552 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:56,920 needs as much information possible it occurs to me that there would be other 553 00:46:54,160 --> 00:47:01,480 savings again maybe Small Potatoes is there Savings in vehicles Insurance you 554 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:07,720 know cell phones conference attendance that eventually should be Cal calculated 555 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:11,640 and sort of included because I we're talking about salary and benefits here 556 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:16,240 but I'm thinking of those two red trucks that are sitting at the back of the fire 557 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:19,880 hall in Port curn and not going anywhere right now not that premature to do 558 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:23,800 anything now but is there going to be other economies of scale that are 559 00:47:22,079 --> 00:47:27,079 achieved as we move forward you don't even have to answer that now but I like 560 00:47:25,599 --> 00:47:30,119 to see that included in whatever financials we're looking at in the 561 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:45,400 future see you got that Chief the other question I had was somewhere in here I 562 00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:51,079 was reading about the split on workman's comp the way wle plays it against ports 563 00:47:48,559 --> 00:47:56,440 at the end of the year does it it's a wash that comes out the basically the 564 00:47:52,839 --> 00:48:01,480 same amount of money or is it how's that work out so through the chair to all of 565 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:04,319 the committee so no because Port cob is a schedule one employer and we're a 566 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:08,599 schedule two employer they're self-funded so we true up at the end of 567 00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:12,440 each year um where that's not the case for Port Coburn 568 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:21,000 okay so then if we went option three with using Wayne 569 00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:27,079 fleet's pay scale then at the end of the year they they'd be a cost them to chew 570 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:35,559 up to us share that and otherwise if we go with option uh two then we would have 571 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:38,160 to that cost would come to us as well right so they got to figure that in on 572 00:48:37,079 --> 00:48:42,800 our ENT so that would be something that we 573 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:47,200 would consider and that would be drafted in an agreement if we got to a final 574 00:48:45,319 --> 00:48:51,119 agreement those are all things to be considered which is why they're noted at 575 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:56,359 this stage as Scott was saying trucks a little minor stuff but it all comes out 576 00:48:53,720 --> 00:49:00,359 right in a wash we want it all there and no surprises to anybody afterwards or 577 00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:07,480 somebody says you you didn't tell us the whole truth right 578 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:12,000 so okay so you've got that just just through you Mr chair so 579 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:17,160 so in addition to the pros and cons of options one through three we also have 580 00:49:13,720 --> 00:49:22,160 to look into um any other savings material savings Vehicles conferences 581 00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:24,880 training cell phones anything else we'll as staff we'll sit down we'll kind of 582 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:29,359 brainstorm if if if any of the committee members have 583 00:49:27,599 --> 00:49:32,119 any ideas as well please email them to me so that way we can take them into 584 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:36,960 consideration these are just the ones that I I got out of the discussion um so 585 00:49:35,599 --> 00:49:43,599 that way we can kind of take some time and capture them as well um so just I 586 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:47,200 guess with this now this is our action item for the next committee meeting is 587 00:49:45,240 --> 00:49:50,920 it safe to assume that the July 17th joint council meeting will not be 588 00:49:53,119 --> 00:50:02,200 required or should we bring in what we have here so through the chair to I 589 00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:07,000 guess I'm looking to poor Coburn um without that meeting I will have to try 590 00:50:03,839 --> 00:50:10,480 to amend our agenda for tomorrow for you guys in order for you guys to have a 591 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:15,040 chief come past August 8th because I don't have a meeting until September 592 00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:20,799 after my meeting tomorrow night unless we host that meeting but it I if that's 593 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:28,640 the only purpose of the meeting then I can just amend our agenda I'm smiling 594 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:28,640 nicely at Amber just in case abely 595 00:50:32,720 --> 00:50:40,920 so we'll have to make a motion then to extend this 596 00:50:36,599 --> 00:50:40,920 till let's put the first of November 597 00:50:42,119 --> 00:50:48,920 down that work I think the chief had a date in mind was it September 8th or 598 00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:53,359 October 8th uh October 8th puts us at two months from from the original ending 599 00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:59,599 from the original yeah yeah but then November 3rd or October 600 00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:02,559 November 1st is a okay with me it just that way we get through the two Council 601 00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:07,920 meetings in October if we wanted to bring business forward so on that basis 602 00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:13,640 I'd make a motion that both councils be respectfully requested to extend the 603 00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:17,760 temporary coverage to November 1st 604 00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:29,480 2024 yeah I'll second that doesn't mean we have to run that 605 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:29,480 long we can end this sooner right 606 00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:48,240 but yeah sorry through the committee chair just talking to my uh council 607 00:51:47,359 --> 00:51:55,880 member here if if Wayne Fleet amends their 608 00:51:52,040 --> 00:52:00,160 agenda I don't even I think we if poor cor can bring something on July 23rd 609 00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:02,640 when our council meeting is we'd be making a bit of a leap of faith that 610 00:52:01,319 --> 00:52:08,599 council's going to approve that but I think the absence of a fire chief is a 611 00:52:04,359 --> 00:52:15,480 worse outcome than not extending um we would not have the 612 00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:15,480 July the July meeting of joint council 613 00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:22,119 meeting yeah I'm okay with that yes so through the chair to 614 00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:26,599 Scott we if we if we have no business to talk about on the SE and it's the 17th 615 00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:31,200 which I'm hearing mayor steals away um so yeah if we can amend our agenda just 616 00:52:28,799 --> 00:52:35,240 to have that extended and the committee is not in a position to make a 617 00:52:32,240 --> 00:52:38,799 recommendation to both councils then I would suggest that we don't need we 618 00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:46,480 don't have a need for that meeting at this time okay so I just just we 619 00:52:43,319 --> 00:52:52,440 probably should have sometime after September mid-september a joint meeting 620 00:52:49,319 --> 00:52:56,559 just so we can get other counselors making sure that they're on board with 621 00:52:54,559 --> 00:53:00,280 this because we want to we want to get get this done I don't know if there's 622 00:52:57,799 --> 00:53:04,880 anybody on our side that's going to oh you know you're talking about 623 00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:09,720 amalgamation here and right we we got to kind of get 624 00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:14,280 this in a joint meeting and get it done so that we come to November and we're 625 00:53:12,079 --> 00:53:18,640 still not arguing if we're going to get this done or not I don't know if we have 626 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:21,319 the votes right so um full agreement from the staff side you know I I think 627 00:53:20,119 --> 00:53:26,520 we don't want to have a meeting for the sake of having a meeting but Council 628 00:53:23,599 --> 00:53:29,960 does deserve some updates and but also the staff who are working under both 629 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:34,839 arrangements or both municipalities under this 630 00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:37,280 Arrangement need some uh need a a date they can sort of look forward to and say 631 00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:40,880 hey this is going to come to a conclusion so in the interest of 632 00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:46,280 fairness for all I think if we can get the clerks of both municipalities to 633 00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:49,480 today or like at this point in time set a meeting which gives us a long Runway 634 00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:52,520 make sure everyone's available on one of the weeks that there's not already a 635 00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:58,920 council meeting for one or the other of the municipalities that will be good um 636 00:53:55,640 --> 00:54:04,119 I know that I send a weekly uh email to my Council I can I I've sort of been 637 00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:08,760 saying we're making progress and and not detailed updates but updates but we also 638 00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:13,240 have a chance for councelor ho or for chief Alcock to sort of update our our 639 00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:19,640 June 9th July 9th council meeting has been canceled due to um No Agenda items 640 00:54:15,839 --> 00:54:24,799 July 23rd they can give a brief update to council so that Council knows but our 641 00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:28,000 Council has fully sort of supportive of this committee doing its work and 642 00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:33,440 doesn't really want to Tinker with it until it comes back to them so if we try 643 00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:39,920 for the first two weeks of September in a in a maybe or the after Labor Day when 644 00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:45,200 there's not a regular council meeting I think that might suit your meet your 645 00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:52,000 requirements yeah I'm I'm just thinking we need to have FaceTime with each other 646 00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:57,359 and get right people's opinion through you Mr chair so our next scheduled 647 00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:59,920 committee meeting is July 22nd MH um at which point we're going to bring that 648 00:54:58,559 --> 00:55:03,680 information back is the expectation that the 649 00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:07,599 committee will have the information needed to make a recommendation at that 650 00:55:05,559 --> 00:55:10,760 meeting or are we looking at because I think our schedule our committee meeting 651 00:55:09,079 --> 00:55:15,480 schedules only took us to the end of July y um are we looking at now having 652 00:55:14,079 --> 00:55:19,079 to schedule additional committee meetings in August or is there a reason 653 00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:23,640 why we can't do the joint council meeting in 654 00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:26,640 August why does it have to be mid to end September 655 00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:38,839 I will say um to the committee chair I'm uh no 656 00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:41,680 objection from P cin staff I will tell you that August does have the Amo 657 00:55:40,240 --> 00:55:47,160 conference I have a council member and a few staff at it um and just vacations 658 00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:51,799 generally but if we could find a date that works for all the parties we can 659 00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:55,799 definitely go towards the the latter half of 660 00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:59,880 August yeah if you guys can make a date that works I'm I'm okay with that right 661 00:55:58,359 --> 00:56:06,680 so through then that Mr chair we can take it offline and the chief myself and 662 00:56:02,119 --> 00:56:10,000 both caos and both clerks can sort of um maybe do some polling of council and 663 00:56:08,559 --> 00:56:14,960 staff that are required at the meeting and make the best possible date before 664 00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:20,319 or after Labor Day okay okay so we'll leave that up to you 665 00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:23,559 on that there's no delegations action items are you going 666 00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:29,400 to work on savings 667 00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:32,480 I need a motion to adjourn this meeting oh go 668 00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:37,000 Ahad 669 00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:53,000 okay 670 00:56:55,000 --> 00:57:07,359 yeah okay so I need a motion to adjourn Scott mallerie Tim all in 671 00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:10,359 favor that's Carri thank you ladies and gentlemen