[0:17] okay good morning everyone I'd like to
call this uh meeting to order we're in
[0:22] the council chambers of Wayne Fleet um
is there any disclosure of Interest or
[0:28] general nature thereof
seeing
[0:34] none we'll go on uh adoption of the
agenda I need to move in a
[0:40] second
Scott Mr
[0:46] Hoy all in
[0:51] favor no okay we're
[0:55] good okay approval of minutes from June
17 202
[1:00] for is any corrections or nothing all in
favor of
[1:08] approval it's
carried okay I need a move in a second
[1:13] on
that Council Hoy coun uh CEO
[1:19] Louie Scott
[1:24] Scott all in
favor that's approved
[1:31] business arising from previous meetings
comparators of shared services across
[1:38] Ontario Morgan you want to go to that
sure through you Mr chair um what I've
[1:45] provided here um I was able to uh gather
a list from the Ontario Association of
[1:50] Fire Chiefs of municipalities that
currently share um that share Fire
[1:56] Chiefs um not so much um full
Amalgamated departments but just um that
[2:02] have a shared administrative role um
some of which you'll see i' I've
[2:07] provided um kind of a a commentary on
some of the Lessons Learned um and some
[2:14] of the the pros and cons of of the
different models that have been utilized
[2:18] um and then lastly also kind of some of
the the natural progressions that has
[2:23] occurred um you know over the the decade
that some of these been that have been
[2:28] used uh so for that I think I'll just
look to the committee members if they
[2:31] have any questions of Staff then we can
kind of review um and go forward from
[2:43] there um sure through the chair to the
chief um I I know about these examples
[2:48] from the past I just from my career I've
been exposed to them and whatnot um but
[2:54] I think there's more that
exist or have existed and sort of gone
[2:59] by the wayside in Ontario how did you
choose this list was there a criteria
[3:03] did you exclude
some for reasons of practicality like
[3:07] they didn't apply to our situation or
they didn't uh have the same parameters
[3:11] that we're looking at or something like
that or did you choose these as best
[3:14] practices was there a criteria for
that through you Mr chair no these are
[3:20] the ones that
um utilize a shared Chief so the others
[3:27] like Huntsville Lake a base they had
used a shared chief model for years and
[3:31] years and they have now gone to a fully
Amalgamated system so that's why they
[3:35] were left off because the last meeting
we talked about full amalgamation wasn't
[3:40] to be
considered perfect uh appreciate that
[3:45] answer and then the second question
probably my last one on this sorry
[3:50] unless we get into it um a little deeper
dive the comments are great and I
[3:56] appreciate them the analysis I guess for
lack of a better term but I just just
[3:59] going to ask you if they're
all like how you uh how you got them
[4:04] basically I see the one from Perth and
Perth East or West Perth and Perth he
[4:08] says the fire chief there has provided
comments from his experience there but
[4:16] the other ones don't say that did you
reach out to each of these
[4:19] municipalities and sort of survey uh
sorry survey is probably not the best
[4:24] inquire as to pros and cons and
successes and pitfalls and so on to to
[4:29] get these comments the four pages of
analysis yes is that how you did it so
[4:33] through you Mr chair yeah um in the case
of Midland and penetang I actually
[4:37] called the fire chief there uh directly
um he's he's new to the role he's been
[4:42] doing that shared role for about three
years um they are they're almost at 10
[4:46] years now um and they're currently going
through a feasibility study um because
[4:51] of the lessons learned through their
their shared Chief role which I've
[4:54] highlighted here um in the in the case
of West Perth Perth East that is
[4:58] literally um his email to me based on on
the Lessons Learned uh in the case of
[5:03] West Niagara um I I spoke with with
Chief Hudson there um and kind of the
[5:09] lessons learned and then in the case of
MTO Wellington and uh Wellington North
[5:14] and mapon that's also I contacted uh
Chief Chris Harrow and spoke about their
[5:19] Lessons Learned um and that's there and
then Huntsville Lake of Bays um again
[5:24] that was um they've gone through a
couple of Chiefs and the most recent one
[5:28] um was the one that that pushed uh
forward the the amalgamation so those
[5:32] are just that's just where the history
of of the different models came
[5:36] from that's that's what I needed to know
and I appreciate that I said one last qu
[5:41] that would be the last question but then
I remembered I was in uh February in an
[5:45] no April in an elevator with a council
member from uh from uh pretty sure it
[5:52] was
Rockland um Rockland is also shared
[5:57] service right that is correct yes they
they do have a shared Chief model yep
[6:01] right and uh through the chair the um I
actually just I casually inquired how is
[6:07] it going and he said like best thing
we've ever done or something to that
[6:10] effect the reason I ask reason I tell
you that story is do you in addition to
[6:16] these phone calls and and inquiries to
these municipalities do you in your
[6:20] day-to-day or even when you go to a fire
chief's conference or when you go to an
[6:25] event where there's people gathered from
all over Ontario do you hear about these
[6:29] things these places and do you get Pros
cons positive negative feedback on
[6:37] them through the chair um yes when I do
attend but to be honest it it this
[6:42] particular topic hasn't really been on
my radar up until March April of this
[6:48] year so it's not really something that
until I was asked to pursue um that I
[6:54] really started to get to get the
information
[6:59] okay anyone
else so I have a question for
[7:05] you so generally when you go to these
fire
[7:10] conferences and I don't know the fire
industry at all but I do know the
[7:14] industry I'm in and there's pros and
cons and people look at things
[7:18] positively and
negatively what is the overall
[7:23] perception or a view of people joining
up I would min IP alties working
[7:30] together to try to have joint services
like this is this something in general
[7:34] that the fire industry doesn't like
because they think it's going to cut
[7:41] jobs or less jobs in their industry
like what is is there a general
[7:48] conception that that's what's going to
happen in this so through you uh Mr
[7:53] chair uh there are 444 municipalities in
the province of Ontario every single one
[7:58] of them are unique and different um and
with that what you have here is a
[8:03] snapshot of those municipalities uh that
have attempted it as I said some have
[8:08] moved on to full amalgamation um of the
Chiefs that I've spoke to um they
[8:13] believe that this is the way forward um
as we are all aware fire services are
[8:18] becoming increasingly expensive to
operate um and for smaller
[8:23] municipalities um and for most that's
why I think even regionalization I said
[8:29] it uh was a was a topic at one point um
because at some point we have to
[8:35] understand that um while it is a
municipal responsibility um through the
[8:40] fppa it is an an expensive one and as
municipalities we need to do what's best
[8:46] to deliver the services that our
community expects and if that means that
[8:50] having to share sometimes that's the
best way forward okay thank
[8:57] you okay span of responsibility
comparatives to the other nager Regional
[9:03] fire departments U I'll put
[9:16] that um yeah I I think the the question
here that was brought up to you Mr chair
[9:22] um was about the ability for uh a shared
management team to be able to handle um
[9:30] a department as this and and yes I will
admit as a chief you know having to uh
[9:35] to deal with you know three Collective
agreements two municipal councils two
[9:39] municipal budgets um that is something
that as the chief would have to manage
[9:44] uh but I think when you look at um kind
of the span of responsibility that I
[9:49] have here when you look at other
municipalities whether it be population
[9:53] square kilometers the number of stations
the size of Fleet the Personnel um it's
[9:59] not
impossible it's not out of the realm of
[10:03] what's expected for a chief in or or an
administrative team in today's day and
[10:09] age um obviously there will be increased
workload which is why you know the
[10:14] deputy and myself would not be able to
do this just the two of us there would
[10:18] be additional uh resources required um
but it's not impossible and that's
[10:24] that's what this was meant to show is
when you compare what this model would
[10:28] look like to the other municipal alties
um in in Department size and
[10:33] operation it's it is it is
manageable
[10:38] okay any
questions Council H through the chair um
[10:44] just a quick question I'm looking at
Lincoln and Grimsby which they're doing
[10:49] they're doing shared right correct
um so the Shar and the chief so you got
[10:55] have a 0 five um they both have their
separate uh Deputy Chiefs and
[11:03] then together it'll be two
fpos and then two training that's
[11:09] correct yep and they're dividing it up
whatever percentage I imagine grimsby's
[11:15] putting more of the bill than Lincoln
right I would imagine well bigger
[11:21] population I'm just trying to figure out
how this would fit into port and Wayne
[11:27] fleet's Uh situation
um but if I look at the numbers the
[11:35] population were
like almost all except for
[11:41] thoral don't have
fulltime I'm just looking at the
[11:46] averages
here so um just had a question is
[11:53] this how we see it
as bringing in uh dividing up the chief
[11:59] and then bring in another deputy
chief as one of the
[12:07] options
sorry what what is the question
[12:11] counselor oh I'm just uh just trying to
figure this out on how this work for us
[12:15] so it'll be two Deputy Chiefs in Port I
mean not Port but in the grouping and
[12:20] then
one yourself and then one
[12:25] FP um is that the idea yeah so so the
next the next um am I going ahead of
[12:29] slide yeah yeah just just ahead yeah
item C does talk about uh um the
[12:34] financial options and what that orc
chart would look
[12:40] like okay so there's no more questions
on Item B let's go to C and you can
[12:46] answer that one yeah and I think I'll
I'll look
[12:49] to did you want to take this one
mallerie up to
[12:54] you okay yeah um yeah so so the uh
Treasures for both municipalities met
[13:00] based on Council or the committee's
direction um and did a a cost analysis
[13:06] of the options um one being status quo
as you know two chiefs two deputies two
[13:12] independent departments um option two
would be one Chief and two deputies um
[13:17] utilizing the port curn um pay grid
scale uh option three is one Chief and
[13:24] two deputies using the Wayne Fleet pay
grid and scale and then option four is
[13:29] one Chief a deputy and an assistant
Deputy also using the wne fleet grid um
[13:35] the assistant Deputy you'll see when I
when you look at the organizational
[13:38] chart uh I I hadn't um built that in it
was just a model to show if if you did
[13:44] want to have that extra layer of rank um
the savings
[13:49] are it's about $88,000 per municipality
uh in savings whereas uh you know for
[13:56] the value for the value there it's it's
option four
[13:59] doesn't really provide what I think
we're looking for here um but two and
[14:03] three that's kind of where the the orc
chart that you see behind uh is was
[14:08] built on and I guess really it's just
the committee at this point the
[14:11] committee looking at options one two and
three and what model best
[14:22] works okay does uh we want to get
Cameron to comment on this or no I don't
[14:28] think so so um through the chair to to
the committee so just to comment on that
[14:33] when the chief says Wayne fleets pay
grid and pay scale versus poor C's pay
[14:37] grid and pay scale that would mean that
that municipality would be the employer
[14:43] of the the group of administrative
employees so um we can't have Port curn
[14:48] employees operating on the Wayne Fleet
Grid or Wayne Fleet employees operating
[14:51] on the port curn grid um so just to keep
that in mind when reviewing the options
[14:56] um as well as so option two and option
three at this point I guess we would be
[15:00] looking so the intent or our hope is
that we can go to to council to a joint
[15:05] council meeting with a recommendation
from this committee so if there are any
[15:10] committee members that have maybe any
options that they don't see here that
[15:14] they would like to see in terms of a
split or Personnel then we're happy to
[15:19] take that back and and uh review and and
come up with a different financial model
[15:25] if that's what you see fit
[15:32] any questions through the chair uh my
question is I'm looking at this and I
[15:39] see the two deputies it says Port curn
so that's in the port curn
[15:45] scale but what if one is in
[15:50] each cuz technically there should be
someone in Port and there should some
[15:55] definitely be someone in Wayne Fleet
and besides where the chief will beting
[16:01] this because in this um cost does it
have the uh Chief also on there so
[16:09] through the chair to councelor Hoy uh so
it doesn't necessarily mean that that's
[16:13] where the all of the employees are going
to live it's just going to be you can't
[16:17] they can't have two separate employers
and with the financial modeling and with
[16:22] ports grid versus Wayne fleet's grid if
one of them was an employee of port and
[16:26] two of them were an employee of Wayne
Fleet there would be less cost savings
[16:30] and likely the deputy would earn more
than the chief which in a hierarchy
[16:35] situation that doesn't exactly work so
they would all have to be employees of
[16:39] one municipality or the other that
doesn't necessarily mean that that's
[16:43] where their office will be that that's
where their time will spent that that's
[16:45] how the time will be split up uh that is
an operational thing that Council can
[16:50] have input on those levels of service
this is purely the financial modeling
[16:54] and how it and how it has basically it
doesn't necessar work out if that's not
[17:00] the case and we're not looking at Apples
to
[17:07] Apples yeah through the chair to I don't
know the chief or maybe to councelor
[17:12] hoy's comment like I'm in my position is
unique because when I sit here I'm a
[17:17] Committee Member but when I sit in my
council chambers I'm a Staff person
[17:20] who's giving a recommendation to my
counil so obviously two different
[17:25] functions not that I can't handle both I
think I can but um
[17:30] you know looking at these numbers are
actually better than I thought they
[17:33] would be 100,000
220,000 in savings but I'm not as
[17:37] motivated by Financial savings like if
I'm motivated by efficiency and
[17:43] effectiveness of the service that we're
going to deliver to both municipalities
[17:48] so if it's way way way better and it
cost an extra Buck it's okay with
[17:53] me but if it saves 100,000 and it's not
better it's worse I can't can't
[17:59] recommend it to my Council I mean if if
it saves someone like there's something
[18:03] there some Middle Ground there where if
it saves a little bit and it stays the
[18:06] same quality-wise but I want a I want a
safe effective efficient fire department
[18:12] for both municipalities so my questions
are more on the org chart if you if I
[18:18] can take you there and to councelor Ho's
Point Chief you have these two deputies
[18:24] on this org chart divided by
function uh rather than
[18:30] say chief of you know in my mind's eye
chief of Wayne Fleet and Port curn
[18:36] deputy chief Wayne Fleet deputy chief
Port curn that's a different model
[18:40] that's not expressed here I think is
what he's asking if I can put words in
[18:44] his mouth can you explain why you propos
this model instead of that and I'll ask
[18:50] a followup right away if that's okay
chair
[18:55] um the uh in practical applic because we
always design things but then we have to
[19:00] go out and actually do them and when is
the is the practical application the
[19:05] same as we projected where will people
be stationed managers like is there
[19:09] office hours in both municipalities I
guess is my follow-up question after you
[19:14] answer the first one uh yeah through you
Mr chair so this was built again based
[19:20] on the lessons learned from previous
municipality so when we look at the
[19:23] Midland penetang model they did that
penetang had their own Deputy Midland
[19:28] had their own Deputy they were not
cross-appointed only the chief was so in
[19:34] the event and and although they had
automatic Aid agreements if the deputy
[19:38] of penetang came into
Midland there was no authority to
[19:42] operate as an administrator as a deputy
or there was no delegated authority as
[19:48] Chief what that left is two very
Standalone departments and that that
[19:53] duplication of efforts still occurred in
penetang the deputy chief was
[19:58] responsible for fire prevention training
coordination all of that no different
[20:02] than the deputy of of penet Tang machine
that's where those that's where the
[20:06] savings would be
is reducing that duplication and having
[20:10] that Specialties so when we look at the
MTO Willington North model that's
[20:15] exactly the the approach they took is it
is a shared administrative team with
[20:19] individuals having Specialties that all
municipalities have access to regardless
[20:24] of wherever they work from right I mean
even Gathering most of this putting this
[20:29] report together half my time was spent
at my waylet office half my time and you
[20:33] can ask the crews was spent at my port
office it doesn't matter where we work
[20:36] from as long as there's presence and as
long as there's as long as the work is
[20:41] getting done and so in in this model
where we have a chief and two deputies
[20:47] there is the opportunity for a deputy to
be stationed at each and the chief to go
[20:51] whichever way the wind blows or his
schedule takes them but same thing with
[20:56] the depuy's role if the training officer
has to be in port curn on a Tuesday to
[21:00] prep or Monday that's where the deputy
chief of training is if he has to be in
[21:03] Monday in port or in way Fleet on Monday
then that's where he is it it there has
[21:08] to be flow and flux to make sure that
both municipalities are receiving the
[21:13] services of all
[21:18] three any other further
[21:24] questions uh through the chair just
going back to this zorg chart um and I
[21:29] think I'm just maybe ask maybe I just
want you to State the obvious these
[21:33] aren't all different people these are
responsibilities that flow under so
[21:38] deputy chief both sides left and right
are
[21:41] people uh suppression down here are
people but these other ones are
[21:46] functions that fall under the two silos
or or maybe that's not the best word uh
[21:52] the two halves of the department are two
separate sides right there's not there's
[21:57] not 30 people working through the chair
that is correct yes so so that is that
[22:01] is the roles and responsibilities that
each individual would that's the kind of
[22:06] their portfolio of their
[22:15] position any further
[22:24] questions Bri anybody nope we're good
there let's go
[22:31] down uh we'll go to D to final survey
[22:39] responses so we'll put you on the seat
again for that one more yeah um through
[22:44] the chair um the what I've done here is
I've taken the the results of the
[22:48] surveys and I've I've kind of put them
in in order of question that you guys
[22:54] can can visually review the results um I
I don't think I'm going to go through
[22:58] every question we we'd be here till noon
but if the if the committee members have
[23:02] questions or comments themselves um of
the results that that might have piqued
[23:07] your interest we can certainly have
those
[23:11] discussions any
[23:16] questions okay so I'll start on this one
then on your ranked
[23:21] questions I really didn't like the way
that was set up because there was
[23:26] probably three things that I agreed
at their importance but I couldn't rank
[23:33] the three of them the same so now you
fighting with yourself where do I want
[23:38] to put this and where is this more
important to me than this and this and
[23:44] some things that I thought
were equally as important ended up being
[23:49] Place third which to me was wrong and
then on mine I kind of asked that it be
[23:57] separated for wayle Council Port counsel
Wayne Fleet volunteers Port volunteers
[24:02] and Port full-time
just so I get a better idea who was
[24:07] doing what you can pretty well tell what
it was reading this thing but like I
[24:11] said the U I think some of it would be
skewed on the council side more than
[24:17] anywhere when you were trying to rate
you know is equipment more important
[24:21] than cost or is cost more important than
training and right
[24:25] so when I was doing it I had a struggle
try trying to get things where I thought
[24:30] they should be instead of you know all
of them being a four right it was you
[24:34] started with a four and some of them
ended up at a two which wasn't way they
[24:38] probably should have been but that's
my was part of my struggle doing that so
[24:45] I don't know if anybody else has any
comments or questions
[24:49] or to the chair um my biggest thing is
you can tell
[24:55] that I'll say this nicely but
just run like employees that may have an
[25:03] issue with all this it's noted in here
you can see it it's a lack of this lack
[25:09] of that and all that um obviously I do
agree that uh Staffing shortages well
[25:17] definitely
important but there's not enough
[25:19] volunteers at all and training yeah I've
already heard lots of training I hear
[25:24] even training now uh from volunteers
that it's
[25:28] still not there so
um I don't know if
[25:36] it's I like the charts I like the
information I just don't know if
[25:41] it's
cuz where I work at the state you're
[25:45] always going to get employees views of
their own
[25:49] and kind of like Shades what you're
trying to get um I do get worried about
[25:56] the training I do get worried about
like comments like
[26:00] attitude intimidation from full-timers I
mean I hope that's not true I just hope
[26:07] it just someone that was just happened
to be upset but that kind
[26:12] of doesn't sit well of me lack of
leadership well we already knew that was
[26:19] there prior to even you coming on board
right so I just trying to figure
[26:26] out where of this would be the most
benefit that I can bring back to my
[26:30] fellow
counselors to say what I would support
[26:36] at the end of the day so it's not really
a question I just taken a survey of how
[26:41] this was uh conducted and I just think
it's more of how the person feels and
[26:47] it's probably not the best to evaluate
on
[26:51] that so if I can and then the chief no
no offense taken um when I started here
[26:59] six years ago getting close to that that
was our biggest complaint in town was
[27:04] training lack of training no training we
were had the ministry coming down ready
[27:08] to pretty well shut down our fire
department it takes time to get the
[27:14] training there you you know if our
culture had
[27:18] none now if I read this you can almost
tell the guys from wng Fleet that said
[27:23] we've got enough training we have enough
training it's getting the guys to go to
[27:26] the training is the problem
it I am sure with Chief alock will have
[27:32] the same Pro same issues in Port cin
they'll have the opportunity to train
[27:37] they'll have all of that it'll be how do
we get the guys how do we make it
[27:41] mandatory that they show up and take the
training and that'll have to come from
[27:47] that steering committee I think I'll
have to put some rules in that the guys
[27:51] have to get there and they have to show
up for so much of it because he can beat
[27:55] his head against the wall and Sean and
you're new deputy chief but if we don't
[28:00] force that the guy show up but it all
takes time to get there and I mean
[28:04] reading
ours I think we you've done a great job
[28:08] so far
so it'll happen there in Port as well it
[28:13] just takes
[28:17] time I guess through through the chair
if I if I can be next I I have a lot to
[28:21] say and I don't know what order I should
say it all in but uh I can I the survey
[28:26] it's tough for me to go through I I I
appreciate all this feedback and the
[28:30] firefighters from both municipalities
who participated but uh and it's clearly
[28:35] there's a lot of emotion and passion
about this this and I'm not afraid to
[28:41] say that probably this could have been
handled better on the poort colr side of
[28:45] things I think one of the problems that
I was dealing with as staff was the
[28:48] suddenness of it I can tell you that um
like I have in my email a report about
[28:54] there's three things happening at once
shared services
[28:58] there's a labor issue in pork hurn
around a grievance because of the not
[29:01] replacing of a union firefighter that's
a separate and apart issue the third
[29:05] issue was our chief left and we had no
Chief and we had to get one within 10
[29:09] days yeah so you know but I can when you
they're kind of conflated into the
[29:16] answers of the
survey sometimes I think that person's
[29:19] answering a question about one but
bringing in some passion about the other
[29:24] not to dispute that that's it's
someone's reality and to your point
[29:27] councelor o about you hope it's not true
about one of those comments it's true
[29:33] for one person and if that's their
perception then they're living that
[29:37] every day that's their reality uh might
not be the other 10 you know people on
[29:42] the shift or or couple of shifts but
having said that one volunteer feels
[29:46] that way what I'm building to is I have
in my email maybe it's not fair to
[29:51] divulge but uh to to share with people
but I can tell you I have a report that
[29:55] Chief Lawson was working on from heck
October or November about shared
[30:00] services he was designing a shared
service model for for um Wayne Fleet and
[30:06] Port curn he was also designing one for
a bigger group that included other
[30:10] municipalities like this work was taking
place under previous administrations
[30:15] watch it's not something that happened
all of a
[30:18] sudden uh the second thing though and
and and maybe we should have engaged the
[30:23] city at Port curn at least should have
engaged our workers our empy emploees in
[30:28] both unions better um but then what
happened the next trigger was Chief
[30:34] Lawson saying he's leaving and me having
to quickly write a staff report and
[30:37] quickly engage the two presidents of the
two associations they weren't given and
[30:41] one of them here today they weren't
given a lot of notice about that
[30:44] happening but I didn't have a lot of
notice either um the third thing that I
[30:48] want to say uh so so I don't know if
there's an opportunity to go back
[30:51] because what I'm reading in here is some
of the passion but I'm also reading a
[30:54] lot of lack of understanding uh maybe
not having all of the information
[30:59] because there's some things in these
answers that are just not
[31:04] correct but they're based on somebody
not having been told what is correct
[31:08] right you can't you can't answer a
question sometimes if nobody told you
[31:12] what's going on and heck maybe the mayor
and the CIO should have stood on the
[31:16] floor of the fire hall and addressed the
fire department workers before before
[31:22] this whole thing took place setting that
aside we can't change the past but we
[31:26] can do better moving forward the trouble
I have with the survey is if everybody
[31:30] knows what a bell curve is you know
usually you have most of the people
[31:35] agree you whether it's 80% of the people
or 50% of the people and then it it sort
[31:40] of streams down from there the answers
here are so extreme sometimes you know a
[31:44] person says we have a totally unsafe
situation a person says we have a we
[31:48] have great safety it's a reverse bell
curve almost where there's extremes and
[31:53] people who are on extremes and it makes
it hard to take the survey result
[31:58] forward in any kind of decision making
capacity I think everything in here
[32:02] should be considered in our decision-
making but uh did I just get louder did
[32:07] somebody do that sounds um but it's hard
to say you know 80% of survey respondant
[32:14] want this so let's do it and and so the
numbers aren't there in a
[32:18] magnitude that
uh that I think is actionable but I
[32:23] think there's definitely lessons that
need to be learned from what people have
[32:27] shared with us in both municipalities
and on the full-time and the volunteer
[32:32] side in Port curn so I appreciate that
but that's my comments for uh and maybe
[32:37] unbundle those three separate issues
that are affecting port colr at least
[32:41] and maybe both because I think they need
to be on three separate paths but I
[32:46] understand there's some crossover
[32:53] here okay anybody
else no we're good
[33:00] okay item six new business terms of
reference review of the term of the
[33:07] committee
um who wants to take that one
[33:14] ier uh so through the chair to to all of
the committee so I guess the Hope was
[33:20] that we Wayne fleet's Council breaks
over the summer so the term is going to
[33:26] like the the current term is going to
come to
[33:28] expiration August August 8th so our Hope
was that with the the placeholder for
[33:34] the joint council meeting next week Our
Hope was that the committee could at
[33:38] least come up with a preferred option to
recommend to both councils uh if or to
[33:44] or to recommend against and or we need
to extend the agreement again as I
[33:49] mentioned in previous meetings like
continually extending it with no light
[33:53] at the end of the tunnel is not
sustainable for the chief or deputy uh
[33:58] we don't want them to get burned out
because then neither municipality will
[34:01] be in a favorable position um but in the
short term if we are working towards an
[34:05] option or the committee has direction
for us to go back and consider a third
[34:10] Financial option or if we have a
preference to a financial option um then
[34:15] we're looking for that direction and
then we would have to rec make a
[34:19] recommendation to the to both councils
to extend um just based on our Council
[34:24] schedule it doesn't align before the
expiration a
[34:32] date any suggestions Scott so yeah uh to
the chair you know we're we're making
[34:39] progress we're making slow progress I
think we're eventually going to end up
[34:43] with a recommendation to at
least from me to my Council and from
[34:49] your CEO to your Council about an option
to pursue that could be no change in the
[34:54] way we operate uh status quo po colr
will have to figure out uh a replacement
[35:00] Fire Chief and whether or not they're
going to replace the deputy chief that's
[35:03] a political decision that will be made
by Council um or if one of the three
[35:09] other options on the screen are going to
be pursued that's not going to be
[35:13] decided today that's not going to be
decided on Wednesday on uh I think it's
[35:18] July 17th the proposed 16th the The
Joint meeting of council that we're
[35:22] holding a date for but where we end up
with a administrative problem is Port
[35:28] curn still needs that shared service the
temporary coverage while the recruitment
[35:34] is on hold for a full-time permanent
replacement Chief so 120 days you know
[35:41] sitting there looking down the calendar
at March 31st seemed like a lot of time
[35:46] here we sit at 95 days or whatever it is
and it wasn't a lot of time so I
[35:51] guess you know even if was Wayne Fleet
or sorry P curn was to post the position
[35:56] it would probably be 10 to to 12 weeks
before a person could assume the
[36:01] position uh be recruited hired
presumably give notice to their former
[36:07] employer that they're going to be
leaving and going to port curn and so on
[36:11] so that's 3 months 12 weeks is 3 months
August 8th plus 3 months is uh you know
[36:19] the end of October
basically
[36:23] um but we have to have more meetings
like I guess I don't know I looked at
[36:28] the chief could we
say September 30th like almost like two
[36:34] dates a date for the committee's work to
be done and a recommendation to be
[36:39] before Council and then a
date to extend the shared the temporary
[36:45] coverage until which should be 3 months
past when Council makes a decision if
[36:50] you know what I
mean um through you Mr chair yeah I I
[36:55] think at this point knowing that one
month to the day from the end of this
[37:00] term um I see no reason why we can't
just extend to another two months so
[37:05] October 8th but at some point I think
the committee is going to have to make
[37:10] its decision and recommendation to the
Joint Council so I mean the next
[37:17] thing we have action items that that the
committee is supposed to work on after
[37:21] this so I think what is the action items
that staff like what is what is the
[37:25] committee's plan and schedu SCH to
provide a report to
[37:30] councils and if it's not the 17th if
it's some point in August like that's
[37:35] what the committee needs to decide is
what's its plan forward before I just
[37:40] arbitrarily set two months as the date
like what is what is our what is our
[37:44] revised work plan what is our
[37:51] schedule any suggestions
thoughts so through the chair I guess
[37:57] what is there any information that the
committee feels that they need prior to
[38:02] us being able to make a
[38:06] recommendation just so we can work
backwards from that in terms of a
[38:09] timeline because if there's if we feel
like we have all the information
[38:13] that that we need I don't know how many
more meetings we need prior to us being
[38:18] able to craft a recommendation
[38:27] so um I'll look at it we've got the
financials here and where we supposed to
[38:32] go if we look at all the other
municipalities
[38:36] eventually most of them ended up in an
amalgamation but it was 10 years and
[38:40] that's kind of what we talked about
originally was in the 5 to 10 year range
[38:46] because people have to get their heads
wrapped around it and they have to see
[38:50] that it'll work right so if the
population of Port Cobrin we do this
[38:55] joint in 5 years from now
they haven't
[38:59] seen anything go backwards it's all
moved forwards and Wayne fleet has done
[39:05] the same thing you know they talked
about your um loyalty to the the the
[39:10] department you're with but it would be a
new Department then right that you would
[39:15] go to so you know whether you work for
the town of way Fleet or the city of
[39:19] Port kobin you're now going to work for
a joint fire department so you'll have
[39:25] you should be able to mix in over the
five years and know this is coming to
[39:29] figure it out or 10 years if that's what
it takes it's I think we just look
[39:35] at which one of these is going to give
us the best service I'm kind of of the
[39:40] same mind as Scott
I I care about what it costs us but I
[39:45] really want to make sure that we get the
right service for the people and nothing
[39:49] goes backwards from what we have today
right we were as Wayne Fleet as I said
[39:55] six years ago we're in tough sh shap
we're in good shape now I don't want to
[40:00] see us go backwards did it cost us money
it cost us a lot of money to get here
[40:05] right and your training side of it will
cost you a bunch of money if that's what
[40:09] it really is to get there right if
that's or if it's just somebody's nose
[40:15] how a joint I'm not sure is Council H
said but the idea is to try and make
[40:22] something that works for both
communities and is better for the
[40:26] general public and that's
what we have to do I think the
[40:29] information is here yeah there's going
to be hiccups there's going to be things
[40:33] that go wrong
but I think we have the information is
[40:36] just to decide how we're going to go
with this and financially in the setup
[40:41] right like Morgan says he's going to
spend two days here and three days there
[40:44] and next week he's 4 days here because
the wind blew him this way for for
[40:50] things that went wrong right or somebody
was off or there was a an Emergency
[40:54] there's always I like to say work I put
out fires but I can't say that all about
[41:01] Morgan because that's what he's doing
but there's always something that goes
[41:05] wrong and you have to put all your
attention to it to fix it right so um
[41:10] yeah I get it some days you'll be some
weeks you'll be more time here some
[41:14] weeks we won't even see you but that's
okay as long as the work's getting done
[41:18] and we're covered right I'm not naive
enough to think that you're going to go
[41:22] over to Pork cin and work for them all
the time and we'll get nothing right but
[41:26] I do know it's going to go both ways and
I think that's we just have to get
[41:32] Council to look at it that way and maybe
there has to be some chatter from us to
[41:38] the councilors
and so yeah through the chair I agree uh
[41:44] 100% I know you know going back to the
survey some of the questions that were
[41:48] answered um speak about things like how
could one person be the chief of two
[41:54] municipalities or or will there be burn
burn out and things like this but there
[41:58] are places in Ontario where they didn't
get a choice you know in Hamilton which
[42:02] was Amalgamated I don't know if it was
six departments or some number of
[42:05] departments into one Chief The Province
said go figure it out you only have one
[42:10] Chief now and they made it work we have
a chance here to make our own choice
[42:14] instead of having it forced upon us and
build the the system um if we decide to
[42:21] go down that path I think my as a
Committee Member now taking off my staff
[42:25] hat and putting on my Committee Member
hat
[42:28] I I would like to direct staff to sort
of come back with one of these two
[42:33] options you know in my mind I this is an
awkward part of the conversation is the
[42:39] chief is here and he's the one who's
going to be earning the pay and we can
[42:42] see that the pay is different depending
on how it works but if it's option two
[42:47] port curn and I guess there's a question
of who sharing with whom who's the
[42:51] shareer and who's the share e but at the
end of the day when it's over there's
[42:55] something that I'd like people to be
able to wrap head around if it is
[42:59] pursued the person is the chief the
person is the chief of Port curn the
[43:03] person is the chief of Wayne Fleet it's
not Port cbr's Chief is over here today
[43:08] it's not Wing fleet's deputy chief is
over here today they are the fire
[43:13] Administration so one of these two
options and of course still bringing
[43:17] forward status quo I don't think I don't
favor assistant Deputy I I like the
[43:23] equality of two deputies
and and start to funnel those down into
[43:30] building pros and cons for both models
for both councils to consider
[43:36] so if it's if it's a motion I would move
that we that we ask staff to continue
[43:41] working on option one and option two MH
which is Port curn as the employer with
[43:47] a 60/40 split I don't know if we want to
talk about that more if there's a
[43:51] seconder or what have you but I think we
need to funnel down to what's going to
[43:55] be before both count
[44:02] if it's not time yet to decide so
through the chair to the CIO it could be
[44:06] the first three options but again making
progress towards narrowing down the
[44:11] options having pros and cons knowing the
benefit of of each one but as well as
[44:16] the pitfalls and maybe some more
engagement of of fir so like obviously
[44:22] from the survey this is one thing I
didn't say sorry I'm rambling a bit from
[44:25] this survey po curn has some morale and
culture issues that need to be addressed
[44:30] they're going to have to be addressed
regardless of what models pursued and
[44:33] regardless of who's sitting in that seat
um you know we don't live in a world
[44:38] where the sailors get to choose the
captain but maybe they should have some
[44:43] voice because they do have skin in the
game and do have to live with the
[44:47] permanent
[44:53] structure through the chair if I could
get also the uh the splitting uh for
[45:00] option two and three the the chief's
wage added to that in that number for
[45:08] option two and three just I like an
overview of a whole model through the
[45:13] chair the chief's wage is included in
this
[45:17] yes so through the chair just for
clarity that's one Chief two deputies
[45:23] salary and benefits and no
Administration no
[45:28] Arial through the chair to Scott yes
that's correct it's uh the fire chief is
[45:33] in every option and two deputies and no
admin so that's already included the
[45:41] numbers you're showing us yeah yeah okay
because when you look at it it doesn't
[45:46] really say that so that's why I I
thought when I was reading it that it
[45:50] was all there but I just wanted to make
sure
[45:59] okay so we need a motion
[46:04] to got made the motion I'll second the
motion okay for staff to come back with
[46:10] a more
streamlined pros and cons approach with
[46:14] options one to three okay all in
[46:19] favor we got that
[46:27] any other
[46:30] comments uh through the through the
chair to to Chief um it just popped into
[46:36] my head and maybe I maybe it's small
potatoes but uh because I was looking at
[46:41] the breakdown of the costs that were
included as
[46:46] you I mean Council needs as much
information as possible the committee
[46:50] needs as much information possible it
occurs to me that there would be other
[46:54] savings again maybe Small Potatoes is
there Savings in vehicles Insurance you
[46:59] know cell phones conference attendance
that eventually should be Cal calculated
[47:06] and sort of included because I we're
talking about salary and benefits here
[47:09] but I'm thinking of those two red trucks
that are sitting at the back of the fire
[47:13] hall in Port curn and not going anywhere
right now not that premature to do
[47:18] anything now but is there going to be
other economies of scale that are
[47:22] achieved as we move forward you don't
even have to answer that now but I like
[47:25] to see that included in whatever
financials we're looking at in the
[47:38] future see you got that Chief the other
question I had was somewhere in here I
[47:43] was reading about the split on workman's
comp the way wle plays it against ports
[47:48] at the end of the year does it it's a
wash that comes out the basically the
[47:52] same amount of money or is it how's that
work out so through the chair to all of
[47:58] the committee so no because Port cob is
a schedule one employer and we're a
[48:02] schedule two employer they're
self-funded so we true up at the end of
[48:06] each year um where that's not the case
for Port Coburn
[48:12] okay so then if we
went option three with using Wayne
[48:19] fleet's pay scale then at the end of the
year they they'd be a cost them to chew
[48:23] up to us share that and otherwise if we
go with option uh two then we would have
[48:32] to that cost would come to us as well
right so they got to figure that in on
[48:37] our
ENT so that would be something that we
[48:41] would consider and that would be drafted
in an agreement if we got to a final
[48:45] agreement those are all things to be
considered which is why they're noted at
[48:48] this stage as Scott was saying trucks a
little minor stuff but it all comes out
[48:53] right in a wash we want it all there and
no surprises to anybody afterwards or
[48:58] somebody says you you didn't tell us the
whole truth right
[49:02] so okay so you've got
that just just through you Mr chair so
[49:10] so in addition to the pros and cons of
options one through three we also have
[49:13] to look into um any other savings
material savings Vehicles conferences
[49:18] training cell phones anything else we'll
as staff we'll sit down we'll kind of
[49:23] brainstorm if
if if any of the committee members have
[49:27] any ideas as well please email them to
me so that way we can take them into
[49:30] consideration these are just the ones
that I I got out of the discussion um so
[49:35] that way we can kind of take some time
and capture them as well um so just I
[49:40] guess with this now this is our action
item for the next committee meeting is
[49:45] it safe to assume that the July 17th
joint council meeting will not be
[49:53] required or should we bring in what we
have here so through the chair to I
[49:59] guess I'm looking to poor Coburn um
without that meeting I will have to try
[50:03] to amend our agenda for tomorrow for you
guys in order for you guys to have a
[50:08] chief come past August 8th because I
don't have a meeting until September
[50:12] after my meeting tomorrow night unless
we host that meeting but it I if that's
[50:18] the only purpose of the meeting then I
can just amend our agenda I'm smiling
[50:23] nicely at Amber just in case abely
[50:32] so we'll have to make a motion then to
extend this
[50:36] till let's put the first of November
[50:42] down that work I think the chief had a
date in mind was it September 8th or
[50:46] October 8th uh October 8th puts us at
two months from from the original ending
[50:51] from the original yeah
yeah but then November 3rd or October
[50:56] November 1st is a okay with me it just
that way we get through the two Council
[51:01] meetings in October if we wanted to
bring business forward so on that basis
[51:04] I'd make a motion that both councils be
respectfully requested to extend the
[51:12] temporary
coverage to November 1st
[51:19] 2024 yeah I'll second
that doesn't mean we have to run that
[51:25] long we can end this sooner right
[51:42] but yeah sorry through the committee
chair just talking to my uh council
[51:47] member
here if if Wayne Fleet amends their
[51:52] agenda I don't even I think we if poor
cor can bring something on July 23rd
[51:57] when our council meeting is we'd be
making a bit of a leap of faith that
[52:01] council's going to approve that but I
think the absence of a fire chief is a
[52:04] worse outcome than not extending um we
would not have the
[52:10] July the July meeting of joint council
[52:15] meeting yeah I'm okay with that yes so
through the chair to
[52:19] Scott we if we if we have no business to
talk about on the SE and it's the 17th
[52:24] which I'm hearing mayor steals away um
so yeah if we can amend our agenda just
[52:28] to have that extended and the committee
is not in a position to make a
[52:32] recommendation to both councils then I
would suggest that we don't need we
[52:37] don't have a need for that meeting at
this time okay so I just just we
[52:43] probably should have sometime after
September mid-september a joint meeting
[52:49] just so we can get other counselors
making sure that they're on board with
[52:54] this because we want to we want to get
get this done I don't know if there's
[52:57] anybody on our side that's going to oh
you know you're talking about
[53:01] amalgamation here and right we we got to
kind of get
[53:06] this in a joint meeting and get it done
so that we come to November and we're
[53:12] still not arguing if we're going to get
this done or not I don't know if we have
[53:15] the votes right so um full agreement
from the staff side you know I I think
[53:20] we don't want to have a meeting for the
sake of having a meeting but Council
[53:23] does deserve some updates and but also
the staff who are working under both
[53:27] arrangements or both municipalities
under this
[53:30] Arrangement need some uh need a a date
they can sort of look forward to and say
[53:36] hey this is going to come to a
conclusion so in the interest of
[53:38] fairness for all I think if we can get
the clerks of both municipalities to
[53:43] today or like at this point in time set
a meeting which gives us a long Runway
[53:47] make sure everyone's available on one of
the weeks that there's not already a
[53:50] council meeting for one or the other of
the municipalities that will be good um
[53:55] I know that I send a weekly uh email to
my Council I can I I've sort of been
[54:01] saying we're making progress and and not
detailed updates but updates but we also
[54:06] have a chance for councelor ho or for
chief Alcock to sort of update our our
[54:11] June 9th July 9th council meeting has
been canceled due to um No Agenda items
[54:15] July 23rd they can give a brief update
to council so that Council knows but our
[54:21] Council has fully sort of supportive of
this committee doing its work and
[54:26] doesn't really want to Tinker with it
until it comes back to them so if we try
[54:30] for the first two weeks of September in
a in a maybe or the after Labor Day when
[54:37] there's not a regular council meeting I
think that might suit your meet your
[54:42] requirements yeah I'm I'm just thinking
we need to have FaceTime with each other
[54:48] and get right people's opinion through
you Mr chair so our next scheduled
[54:53] committee meeting is July 22nd MH um at
which point we're going to bring that
[54:58] information
back is the expectation that the
[55:02] committee will have the information
needed to make a recommendation at that
[55:05] meeting or are we looking at because I
think our schedule our committee meeting
[55:09] schedules only took us to the end of
July y um are we looking at now having
[55:14] to schedule additional committee
meetings in August or is there a reason
[55:17] why we can't do the joint council
meeting in
[55:20] August why does it have to be mid to end
September
[55:30] I will say
um to the committee chair I'm uh no
[55:36] objection from P cin staff I will tell
you that August does have the Amo
[55:40] conference I have a council member and a
few staff at it um and just vacations
[55:45] generally but if we could find a date
that works for all the parties we can
[55:49] definitely go towards the the latter
half of
[55:53] August yeah if you guys can make a date
that works I'm I'm okay with that right
[55:58] so through then that Mr chair we can
take it offline and the chief myself and
[56:02] both caos and both clerks can sort of um
maybe do some polling of council and
[56:08] staff that are required at the meeting
and make the best possible date before
[56:12] or after Labor Day
okay okay so we'll leave that up to you
[56:18] on that there's no
delegations action items are you going
[56:22] to work
on savings
[56:26] I need a motion to adjourn this meeting
oh go
[56:34] Ahad
[56:50] okay
[56:55] yeah okay so I need a motion to adjourn
Scott mallerie Tim all in
[57:03] favor that's Carri thank you ladies and
gentlemen