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I've been looking at a few people out.

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So I'm just a new key.

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Officially, all of the business, two people out here tonight.

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So you'd be a special.

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If I should move over here, so you don't feel loud.

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Or you can talk to him, yes?

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If he gets too friendly, he'll stop it.

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I've been

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seven.

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Thank you.

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Right.

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Yes.

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Good.

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Good.

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Good.

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I'd like to

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call the evening's meeting of the warrant

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in Tanship Planning Commission in order.

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Please rise for the pledge of allegiance.

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The pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,

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and to the Republic of Georgia's stance,

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one nation under God,

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indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

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First thing I would like to do is officially welcome Brian to the Planning Commission.

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It's a little work and progress here.

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Thanks for your interest and support.

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Brian is a newly appointed alternate member to the Planning Commission.

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Since we have a forum, regular members I don't know that we need to do anything at this point in time

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this evening's proceeding, so you will be an alternate.

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I'm trying to get pregnant, so I don't know.

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Now, the first two items on the agenda are the approval of minutes, and mostly a

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minute, but I did not see any attachments on the portal.

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Good evening, Fred, the meeting is in progress here.

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I hope you can hear us okay?

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Yes, I can.

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Terrific.

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We did just officially welcome Brian Shapiro here

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as the newly appointed alternate member to the Planning Commission.

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So he is here this evening as well.

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Brian, as you may or may not know, for it is a two-hat person.

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He's a member of the Planning Commission, and he is also a member of the Board of Services.

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Did I miss something?

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Or does anybody else have access to the minutes on the portal?

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I did not. I did not have access now.

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All right. Yeah, right now. I am not receiving anything from you guys.

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As far as video goes, but that's her. If you got me, you're letting me guys.

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Turn the light off.

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I got a picture on picture.

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So not having anything to discuss for us one and two we're going to

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table those, hopefully they'll be going to ponder the next meeting.

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So that'll bring us up to the new business item, reviewing comment on a sketch plan

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for Valley Square Phase I.

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Mr. Banner.

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Marcie, so nice to see you Ben.

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Are you doing?

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Well, you know what, we actually have these if you want.

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to save these for another reason.

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Do you want to throw it right in?

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Do you want to throw it right in?

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Do you want to throw it right in?

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Please.

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We're ready?

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Well, good evening.

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William Banner at some.

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I privilege to appear before this body once again on behalf of I star, just some introductions.

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Most of you know what, Tom Hanna, who from Gilmore and Associates, Tom has been the project

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manager for the Valley Square development since its inception.

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Present this evening is a high-stars representative of Donna Musiel who's sitting in the

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audience. Any questions that require decisions from a high star are on sure that Miss

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Musiel will be more than capable of answering them?

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There's the Planning Commission, this phase of Valley Square is inexplicably known as phase

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1.

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I'm sure there's history and in fact I know the history and I won't bore you with it.

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But this is phase 1, phase 2 of course is built for the most part.

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uh... there have been several plans uh... that have come before uh...

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rout warington township

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uh... for the development uh... but this phase of the project of which is uh...

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track of about uh... thirteen and a half acres uh... it would like to get the rest of

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all these squares on cbd

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uh... and it's part of the uh... mixed use uh... development uh... approved uh... back in uh...

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it was 2003 or 2004. The original law concept for this phase of the project envisioned a

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motor in a restaurant and some retail shops. That project never moved forward. Back in 2007 or 2008,

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a subsequent owner of this tracked Valley Square lifestyle Valley Square Associates proposed

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a land development plan that is substantially similar to the plan that you now have before

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you. That was a plan that proposed various retail buildings laid out in a configuration similar

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to the configuration that's on the present sketch plan. Interestingly, that plan reached the

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level of final plan approval and it reached the level where land development and financial

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security agreements were actually drafted and it was right about that time that all lot retail

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activity came to an abrupt halt and the project never moved forward.

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I start financial acquired the property of from Valley Square

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Lifestyle and Valley Square Associates.

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Back I believe it was 2011 and has been entertaining various

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concepts for its development since that's eight.

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It is settled upon the sketch plan that is now before you.

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There has been some interest from users and pardon me for over failing to introduce Patrick

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McCabe, who's the leasing manager for this site, Patus here as an interested observer.

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Pat was instrumental in identifying one of the attendance that I can't, but I do have

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ability to identify this evening or the authority. And that's patient first. Patient first

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proposes to occupy the retail building. I think it's shown on the sketch plan as building one.

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And you'll see some elevations of that building. The other retail, there are negotiations on going

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for some of the other retail space. So that's an overview and a little bit of history of

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Now, I start comes before the board this evening, and with your permission, I'd like to hand over to Tom Hanna, who can take a couple of minutes and explain the site plan in the context of the overall development.

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Tom.

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Excuse me, Tom, before you do that, I have a couple of questions.

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If you could just clarify for me, this is a completely new land development application.

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It is a new application, but of course it can't be reviewed in the context as if there had been no prior attempts to develop in the past.

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Well, that's my question. Technically, is it a new application?

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Of course.

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As opposed to any type of amended final plan.

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It is a new application.

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And I have a quick question here that there's another sketch that was handed out to us.

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I'm sorry?

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That's from the county.

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How do you view that?

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Have you seen those?

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The county ladder in the county?

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Yes, Roy was nice enough to give us a copy of the review in the sketch prior to the start of the meeting.

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Obviously, nobody has had the ability to review it extensively,

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but some of the high points we did have the ability and certainly as we discuss the

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merits of the sketch plan, there will be some appropriate comments.

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We received that going dinner tonight.

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I apologize that I didn't know where it came from.

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Not a problem.

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I'm sorry.

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Please proceed.

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So I can just take you quickly through the layout here, the plan that's up on the board is

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the same plan that had been submitted in sketch format.

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Street Road is to the bottom east and road is to the left-hand side of the property.

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There's access, office street road, main access, office street road.

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That is a full access in, but access out is limited to a westbound turn, a right turn,

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only going out of the site.

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So it would be a westbound going towards east and road.

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There is a right in and right out access,

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off of East and Road, as well as two access points on to the lower portion of Main Street.

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This is Main Street that comes down through from the retail portion of Beltshire, what we would

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refer to as the Villageria, Valley Square Boulevard is out to the right hand side of the

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plan here.

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So this plan has seven buildings, as Bill had mentioned, building one, here, patient first

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as an interested tenant there.

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The balance of the buildings, not really sure, at this point, we're showing a bank located

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here, a possible restaurant in this location, and retail in the balance of the four buildings.

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There's approximately 330 parking spaces there to serve.

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The seven buildings required is about 284 per ordinance.

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So we've got a little bit of access but not a whole lot.

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Stormwater management, water and sewer utilities will be designed

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according to the touch of ordinances.

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In prior designs, the stormwater components have mostly been

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sub-surface under the parking lot.

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We do envision maybe a small surface base and back in here,

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but those details are yet to be worked down.

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We do have sidewalk connecting along the front edge of street road,

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east and road, back up to Main Street, the Long Main Street, as well as an interconnection to the

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internal walking path through the Valley Square development that parallels Valley Square Boulevard.

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That's a basic plan and a nutshell, in terms of, you know, technical details, I guess we can talk through them a few, you know, we've got to really get into the heart of the engineering for this.

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But that's coming up shortly.

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Obviously, for anything of this magnitude,

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one of the requirements is going to be a traffic impact statement.

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Was this sketch generated prior to any contemplation

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of a traffic standpoint?

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Let me address that.

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I star as well aware of the sensitivity

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and the requirement in the subdivision

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land development ordinance for a traffic impact study.

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There had been a traffic impact study in connection.

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Senate with the 2007-2008 land development approval, but that was seven or eight years ago.

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I star has engaged a hordering canter to do the traffic study, that traffic study is underway.

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Hordering canter have met with Pendot. They're aware of what Pendot's requirements are

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the intersections that need to be studied, and they are well aware of the

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pendants recommendations and connection with the prior land development approval

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that I stars predecessor process. So that is underway and by the time that the

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preliminary plan submission is ready to be filed, the traffic study should also be ready.

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Where would that original submission have been left with, PENDA?

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Do you know?

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Well, in connection with the prior development, PENDA actually issued permits.

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So PENDA issued the issued permits for the driveway access issued, I believe issued a signal permit.

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But of course all of that will have to be re-reviewed by PENDA.

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It has not been extended, so it's void.

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A new permit would be required, but the intent here in laying out the scheme of development

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was to respect the designs that the pandemic had previously approved.

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I could add that the improvements along street road and eastern road would include widening

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widening leaders of 14-foot widening along the front edge of the property which allows for

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a direct turn lane at the designated right turn here at the intersection. So all the front edge

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along the long street road as well as the front edge on eastern road connecting into the widening

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that's already been done north of here. I will be part of this project.

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Honestly, the one thing that immediately caught my eye is that dual left turn lanes on street road

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not only into the development, but also southbound on 6.11. It looks as if you've increased the stacking distance in this proposal

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at least the sketch plan for the left turn to southbound 6.11.

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There's no

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from the driveway here, down here, right there.

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Now there's only a single lane, a single left turn lane coming into the site.

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But it appears as if you have increased its what you can car with that.

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Increase the length of the length of the turn lane.

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We're not showing any increase in the length of the turn lane over what had been proposed

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and previous plans. I'm talking about existing. I'm not concerned about that.

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Right. Yes. There are previous plans as far as what we are reviewing here, reviewing this

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plan. When I say previous plans, I'm referring to the plans that

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build spoken about from 2007-2008. Yes, there is a, there's no left turn there laying there.

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Now, obviously there's a center left turn lane and a portion of that is going to be converted

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into a left-turn line into the site, part of the concrete median that's now in the middle

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of street road would be taken out to accommodate the stacking for that left-turn line.

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I'm actually a little bit more concerned of it going in the other direction, heading west.

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There's more of a demand to make the left-hand turn on South 6-11 than the importance of making

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a left-hand turn into the development.

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I just want to make sure that proportionality remains in the public interest.

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That would be something that would be addressed by Mr. Horner and his report.

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I think a question about this sketch is from the county, someone said,

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which is totally different from this sketch.

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In fact, this only shows six buildings considerably less parking in no turn lights.

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I mean, it's only a sketch, but why, if this is from the county, why is it so different?

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That's an excellent.

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That's an excellent question.

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And it's something in the year two or three minutes that we had the opportunity to look at that,

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that we're somewhat perplexed by the county's reasoning.

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And I'm sure they're there.

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I'm sure there must be some rationale behind it, but the concept of eliminating the direct

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access to a street road,

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that effectively makes this project, that will effectively make

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this project, not feasible, from having spoken with Mr. McCabe who's here and having spoken

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with Donna Musil, who has been with I star for many many years and they've developed a shopping

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center for many many years, depriving the site of direct access to street road is a sure

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way to assure that if I star were full of shen off to build either 6 or 7 buildings that's a

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near guarantee that there would be 6 or 7 vacant buildings.

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So you know I'm sure that from

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Theoretic point of view, whoever came up with the sketch, was acting in good faith, thought it might be a good idea, but had a little understanding of the other part of land development and that includes identifying quality tenants, who will occupy the space, pay the rent, stay there, provide good and services to the public.

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This is a separate parcel of land.

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That is correct.

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Is it no longer in common ownership?

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No, no.

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The developer here has no relationship to rally square.

234
00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:10,600
Well, the current owner, the legal type to this ground,

235
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:16,980
is in the name of, I start Harrisburg financial.

236
00:22:18,340 --> 00:22:23,660
I start Harrisburg financial trust, I believe, I need to look at my file.

237
00:22:23,980 --> 00:22:26,020
But it's part of the I start on Braille.

238
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:33,660
All of these sections of Valley Square are owned by different entities,

239
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,120
and that happened years ago.

240
00:22:40,030 --> 00:22:47,250
there's all of the, all of the sections, of course, are bound by the, the plan of development.

241
00:22:48,390 --> 00:22:51,390
But there is no, but there's no association.

242
00:22:52,110 --> 00:22:55,890
Well, you say sections. I'm asking these questions because I'm like no around here.

243
00:22:56,030 --> 00:23:00,330
Sure. I don't have all the history that you were perhaps some other members do.

244
00:23:00,570 --> 00:23:04,570
When you say the other sections, are you talking about three other sections or how many?

245
00:23:04,570 --> 00:23:07,910
Well, there are several sections that have been fully developed.

246
00:23:08,830 --> 00:23:12,210
One section is occupied by Wegmans.

247
00:23:12,890 --> 00:23:15,350
Wegmans owns its parcel in Faye.

248
00:23:16,130 --> 00:23:19,890
There is another section which is adjacent to Wegmans.

249
00:23:21,370 --> 00:23:29,250
And that section has been commonly called referred to as the traditional retail section.

250
00:23:29,250 --> 00:23:37,910
That property and that includes sports authority and staples in the state store and you're

251
00:23:37,910 --> 00:23:40,450
offering it with it.

252
00:23:40,730 --> 00:23:45,850
That parcel was owned by a separate entity and has been owned by a separate entity

253
00:23:45,850 --> 00:23:48,330
for more than 10 years.

254
00:23:49,150 --> 00:23:55,750
There is another section that has been referred to as the Lifestyle Center or the Shops

255
00:23:55,750 --> 00:24:04,750
of Valley Square, that section of Valley Square is owned by an unrelated company.

256
00:24:05,590 --> 00:24:07,010
Unrelated to the first term.

257
00:24:07,090 --> 00:24:08,310
Unrelated to everybody.

258
00:24:09,530 --> 00:24:13,550
And then there's the residential section, which presumably has yet to get another ownership.

259
00:24:13,630 --> 00:24:14,350
That is correct.

260
00:24:14,350 --> 00:24:22,430
there is the, there is the age restricted section, which is adjacent to, uh, to

261
00:24:22,430 --> 00:24:29,750
wagments, uh, that's owned by a separate entity. None of the entities have any, uh,

262
00:24:30,230 --> 00:24:35,630
commonality, uh, between the, uh, they're not subsidiaries. They're not related. They're separate

263
00:24:35,630 --> 00:24:36,110
companies.

264
00:24:36,890 --> 00:24:42,490
Because I think I read the county letter and, well, well, their sketch plan is not much

265
00:24:42,490 --> 00:24:48,910
of an improvement on yours, where they're coming from, I think, is why doesn't it carry

266
00:24:48,910 --> 00:24:55,110
forward the concepts and the aesthetics of what we call the shops at Valley Square?

267
00:24:56,310 --> 00:25:01,570
You know that, I mean, that development is an absolute gem, whereas what's being proposed

268
00:25:01,570 --> 00:25:04,910
here is at best pretty conventional,

269
00:25:07,270 --> 00:25:10,310
and at worst has some sort of significant downsides,

270
00:25:10,310 --> 00:25:14,430
both from a community planning aspect.

271
00:25:15,250 --> 00:25:23,870
It's a collection of pad sites and also from internal as well as external traffic aspects.

272
00:25:27,250 --> 00:25:32,750
And I guess what you're saying when you made your economic comments is this is just conceived

273
00:25:34,730 --> 00:25:39,750
to address a different part of the real estate market than the shops are.

274
00:25:41,110 --> 00:25:47,250
Well, I think you have some planning issues that come in supply and if you look at the,

275
00:25:47,970 --> 00:25:52,430
if you look at the overall site plan for the for Valley Square,

276
00:25:52,470 --> 00:25:59,430
and that was part of the part of the PowerPoint that was passed out earlier.

277
00:25:59,430 --> 00:26:07,470
You'll see that this site is physically separated from the shops at Valley Square, although

278
00:26:07,470 --> 00:26:09,050
it's in some proximity,

279
00:26:11,590 --> 00:26:18,870
there is a separation between the two, and we're not for that,

280
00:26:18,870 --> 00:26:24,170
because of that physical separation, it's very difficult, if not impossible, because of environmental

281
00:26:24,170 --> 00:26:33,050
issues, stream Carter, Woodlands, to effectively tie those two developments together.

282
00:26:34,890 --> 00:26:45,470
And so from an ownership planning point of view, while I think your comments are well taken

283
00:26:45,470 --> 00:26:55,730
that the Shops of Valley Square is a unique form of development, continuing that development

284
00:26:55,730 --> 00:27:02,570
into this tract is a near-impossibility because of the physical separation between them.

285
00:27:02,970 --> 00:27:07,170
I don't think we're certainly behind my comment, wasn't that suggestion, because you're

286
00:27:07,170 --> 00:27:07,750
absolutely right.

287
00:27:08,010 --> 00:27:13,370
This is not like an addition or an extension of a row of building, but it has totally

288
00:27:13,370 --> 00:27:20,870
different aesthetic. It has a different look. It has a different aesthetic. But that is not

289
00:27:20,870 --> 00:27:30,570
unlike the way Valice Ware has developed. That Wegmans has its own personality and

290
00:27:30,570 --> 00:27:36,330
aesthetic the traditional way. It's clearly true. You can't incorporate what we commonly

291
00:27:36,330 --> 00:27:41,530
call as big boxes into a sort of a traditional show and like the shops. It's impossible.

292
00:27:42,970 --> 00:27:49,250
That's a reasonable thing, but you're not talking about big boxes, you're talking about

293
00:27:49,250 --> 00:27:49,870
little shops.

294
00:27:50,530 --> 00:27:56,030
And in this instance, this property is part of the Carter overly district, and the Carter

295
00:27:56,030 --> 00:28:05,590
overly district requires some unifying theme of architecture, and I star as well aware of

296
00:28:05,590 --> 00:28:11,430
those requirements, and it plans to adhere to those requirements in terms of building aesthetics.

297
00:28:11,430 --> 00:28:19,810
which is to say that there will be a common color scheme,

298
00:28:21,830 --> 00:28:27,190
the Carter overly district requires a certain materials on the building facades.

299
00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:29,370
And that's a work in progress.

300
00:28:29,890 --> 00:28:37,130
But I start as well aware of those requirements and has every intention of adhering to them.

301
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,120
the four primary retail buildings that you show.

302
00:28:45,300 --> 00:28:47,340
Are any of those intended to be a single user?

303
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:57,760
At this point, what is occurring is that there has been some interest from some tenants

304
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:03,200
because of the very early stage of the approval process.

305
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:16,440
tenants are reluctant to commit until there is some level of approval, so that's a very difficult question to answer.

306
00:29:17,340 --> 00:29:30,140
My opening comment was that at this point there has only been one tenant that has expressed a willingness to

307
00:29:30,140 --> 00:29:36,080
commit to the entire building and sign a letter of intent, and that's a patient first.

308
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,360
But there are others who are expressing interest.

309
00:29:45,180 --> 00:29:46,900
Well, let me ask the question in a different way.

310
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:54,240
Are you more likely inclined to lease that to multiple users, as far as the four remaining

311
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:54,660
buildings?

312
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,680
You know, I don't know that, that's a very difficult.

313
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:18,180
Question to answer because it's so speculative. Certainly, it would be an I stars interest to least the entire building, but that doesn't roll out the possibility that some of the retail space could be internally subdivided.

314
00:30:18,180 --> 00:30:38,780
Well, I mean, at some point in time when you come with a sketch plan, it will be relatively important to understand which way you're headed, because the commonalities of how you handle one building is loading as opposed to four tenants in one building, loading requirements, trash requirements, and other sundry items is a little bit different.

315
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:39,620
Of course.

316
00:30:40,300 --> 00:30:42,400
And it does affect our perspective on the plan.

317
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:52,100
I mean on the sketch that you have in front of us right now for the 27700 square foot buildings you show what I would

318
00:30:52,100 --> 00:30:58,120
proceed to be a single entry door in the front, which is connected to the sidewalk. That's why I'm asking.

319
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:03,040
Sure. No, and it's a good question and I'm not trying to avoid the question.

320
00:31:03,460 --> 00:31:13,160
It's just that at this early stage, the nature of the leasing hasn't caught up and that's understandable.

321
00:31:13,980 --> 00:31:18,380
I did not go through all the details on these plans, but I assume we are talking about

322
00:31:18,380 --> 00:31:19,740
the single story structures.

323
00:31:29,630 --> 00:31:34,950
Before we get into the engineer's comments, I do thank the engineer for making the

324
00:31:34,950 --> 00:31:37,190
comment about the orientation of the restaurant.

325
00:31:38,850 --> 00:31:43,830
I also think you need to evaluate the 6,000 square foot building on the corner.

326
00:31:45,190 --> 00:31:49,250
If I read that plan correctly, that's facing backwards to the intersection.

327
00:31:49,250 --> 00:31:50,110
Do

328
00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:54,340
you agree with that?

329
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,100
I'm not, are you referring, which,

330
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:03,440
yep,

331
00:32:08,260 --> 00:32:10,960
I'm not sure, I'm not sure that I understand the question.

332
00:32:12,060 --> 00:32:14,500
Where do you think the front of that building is?

333
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,040
I think it's facing north.

334
00:32:18,530 --> 00:32:20,230
Building number two,

335
00:32:22,950 --> 00:32:32,210
I mean, the parking, you know, similar to, I don't know that obviously the architecture hasn't been developed for this, but

336
00:32:35,540 --> 00:32:41,660
As is up in the the villageria, a lot of those buildings, most of those buildings are at four side of architecture.

337
00:32:43,060 --> 00:32:47,740
Well, I'm not concerned so much about the architectural appeal of the building.

338
00:32:48,460 --> 00:32:51,520
It's the fact that buildings have fronts, and they have mirrors.

339
00:32:52,500 --> 00:32:58,080
And we have taken a very critical view of looking at the front of the building from the streetscape.

340
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:04,720
The supporting parking, though, is...

341
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:06,680
That's part of this catch-point process.

342
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,720
Likewise, the comment about the orientation of the restaurant.

343
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,000
I mean, through previous opportunities in this

344
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,100
township, we have what I personally perceived to be one

345
00:33:18,100 --> 00:33:19,120
backwards restaurant.

346
00:33:19,500 --> 00:33:21,580
And I think that's more than enough in our township.

347
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,000
That's a presumably a fast food restaurant.

348
00:33:29,260 --> 00:33:30,740
It appears to have a drive-up play.

349
00:33:31,940 --> 00:33:33,400
It was laid out.

350
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,000
It was laid out to give the leasing people

351
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:46,760
maximum flexibility in leasing. At this point, a restaurant has not been identified. It's

352
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:56,180
a possibility that a user might be a restaurant that has that wishes to have taken out

353
00:33:56,180 --> 00:34:04,100
service. It might also be the case that building might be at least two a restaurant that

354
00:34:04,100 --> 00:34:12,080
has no take-out service and has no need and no desire for a drive-through, but for purposes

355
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:20,520
of the sketch plan, I start to show the drive-through lane so that it could preserve its

356
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:21,960
options moving forward.

357
00:34:23,180 --> 00:34:32,340
And they understand that if there is a drive-through service that this will require a conditional

358
00:34:32,340 --> 00:34:36,900
use of approval as noted in the technical review.

359
00:34:38,820 --> 00:34:45,000
Is it contemplated that these are all sorts of users that no one would want to visit

360
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,320
more than one of them on a trip?

361
00:34:48,140 --> 00:34:50,660
I don't think that's a fair statement, I think.

362
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:51,920
There's a question about this.

363
00:34:52,500 --> 00:34:58,820
I mean, I don't think that that is, I don't think that isn't a assumption that went into

364
00:34:58,820 --> 00:35:00,240
the design of the plan.

365
00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:07,500
Well, it really is. There are no pedestrian connections. If you want to go from one store to another,

366
00:35:07,900 --> 00:35:10,320
you have to cross a parking lot every time.

367
00:35:12,940 --> 00:35:16,780
What pedestrian surfaces, if you will, there are,

368
00:35:16,780 --> 00:35:22,660
just the sidewalk in front of the building and connecting to the door, usually also down the side of

369
00:35:22,660 --> 00:35:25,500
the building, but connecting to another building.

370
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,300
It looks like it's laid out for, because it's not

371
00:35:31,300 --> 00:35:37,900
well laid out if you would expect someone to patronize more than one of the buildings single

372
00:35:37,900 --> 00:35:38,700
visit.

373
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,860
Which I take is the primary thrust of the county sketch point.

374
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:46,420
That's what they're doing.

375
00:35:46,820 --> 00:35:47,900
What they're driving at.

376
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,660
And if you've got a business concept that just totally excludes that fine, it's not so bad.

377
00:35:53,300 --> 00:35:57,340
But if it doesn't totally exclude that, it's not a good plan.

378
00:35:57,860 --> 00:36:03,660
Likewise, from a traffic standpoint, a very experienced shopping center developed or told

379
00:36:03,660 --> 00:36:09,360
me in the context of a center that had the parking in the middle, that there's a reason

380
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,060
that put the parking on the outside and shopping centers.

381
00:36:13,020 --> 00:36:17,380
They don't work very well with the parking in the middle, and you've got most of your parking

382
00:36:17,380 --> 00:36:21,600
in the middle with a lot, a lot of cross traffic.

383
00:36:22,220 --> 00:36:25,220
Again, not from a planning standpoint, not a good layout,

384
00:36:31,510 --> 00:36:31,610
you know,

385
00:36:33,910 --> 00:36:36,230
I think it needs a lot

386
00:36:36,230 --> 00:36:41,050
of work to be a good plan, which doesn't mean it has to be the Shops and Valley Square,

387
00:36:45,130 --> 00:36:51,930
but a lot more can be done to make it function a lot better for what it's supposed to be.

388
00:36:52,050 --> 00:36:57,190
And all these freestanding buildings with no pedestrian connections and all this internal

389
00:36:57,190 --> 00:37:02,550
growth traffic is just not what you typically do when you start with a clean sheet of paper.

390
00:37:04,580 --> 00:37:09,680
Well, you know, I was, and this is a sketch thing. I'm not trying to give you a hard time.

391
00:37:09,700 --> 00:37:14,400
I'm just trying to, when you come back with it with a more refined plan, then it might be,

392
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,800
it might go down better because it's more functional.

393
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:22,720
Well, I appreciate that you're not, that your intent is not to give the applicant a

394
00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:32,620
time and your comments are not taken as such. But it's also the case that I star has developed

395
00:37:32,620 --> 00:37:38,260
a lot of shopping centers. They've been successful.

396
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:42,460
I think that's an issue that certainly

397
00:37:42,460 --> 00:37:47,100
your comments have been noted and will be evaluated.

398
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,660
But I trust you'll understand that there

399
00:37:51,660 --> 00:37:53,480
it might be a different set of opinion.

400
00:37:55,240 --> 00:37:58,420
On those couple of issues, I'm really not so sure.

401
00:37:59,140 --> 00:38:00,940
I'm not sure it's been thought through.

402
00:38:02,180 --> 00:38:08,100
So hopefully they will take those comments because they don't come from an uninformed background.

403
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,860
And give some further thought to what they're trying to do here.

404
00:38:14,860 --> 00:38:26,000
And you're confident that I start as representative has heard your comments and we'll give it the respect they deserve.

405
00:38:31,250 --> 00:38:34,550
I'm a street road while I've got the floor.

406
00:38:35,430 --> 00:38:42,270
I understand your desire I would even call it a need to have the access from street road.

407
00:38:44,150 --> 00:38:54,270
But the left turn for traffic that's traveling in the general in the eastern direction on street road that's going to cross the two lanes of traffic to make the left end.

408
00:38:57,370 --> 00:39:01,230
That area is already a pretty hair-raising place to make a left-hand turn.

409
00:39:02,110 --> 00:39:05,850
If all you're trying to do is to get into the bank that's across the street.

410
00:39:06,990 --> 00:39:12,310
And now to put a posing traffic into that turn lane.

411
00:39:14,350 --> 00:39:19,310
So soon after that barrier ends, where it doesn't have a lot of room to pull over.

412
00:39:21,530 --> 00:39:24,170
Again, it's something I wonder if it's really workable.

413
00:39:24,650 --> 00:39:29,630
Or how you're going to handle the problem of a posing turn lane traffic.

414
00:39:29,630 --> 00:39:36,090
Because what you have now is a center turn lane that really only serves the bank and the drug

415
00:39:36,090 --> 00:39:40,730
star across the street, presently, there's no need or nobody ever attempts to make a

416
00:39:40,730 --> 00:39:46,430
left in that single turn lane, but you're proposing a situation where there's going to be

417
00:39:46,430 --> 00:39:53,290
a lot of traffic, put into it, and people go in the opposite direction of the turn lanes.

418
00:39:53,890 --> 00:39:58,330
That's going to be a problem that needs more than we see here to work out.

419
00:39:58,330 --> 00:40:06,410
You know, you raise an interesting question and back in 2007-2008 when a similar plan went

420
00:40:06,410 --> 00:40:12,590
through the approval process, there was a proposal to a signalized this intersection,

421
00:40:14,250 --> 00:40:17,710
and Penn Dot was less than thrilled with that idea.

422
00:40:17,950 --> 00:40:18,770
It's so close.

423
00:40:19,990 --> 00:40:37,650
and the traffic study that supported that prior plan and with the pen.send point concluded that there was that there would be sufficient gaps in the traffic to permit that.

424
00:40:37,670 --> 00:40:48,370
Oh, there surely is. I'm not terribly, you know, it's not that hard to make a left on street road because for whatever reason, the traffic lights do create very large gaps.

425
00:40:49,770 --> 00:40:55,510
Now what the concern is is the is the opposing traffic sharing a turn lane.

426
00:40:56,130 --> 00:41:01,030
Some people making a left to go to the to the bank and the trucks are on the other side.

427
00:41:01,450 --> 00:41:05,870
And some people making the left to go to yeah because there's only one lane unless we're

428
00:41:05,870 --> 00:41:07,850
going to get separated lane somehow.

429
00:41:08,230 --> 00:41:11,790
Well it's not going to be a continuous left turn lane through there though will actually

430
00:41:11,790 --> 00:41:14,710
would be two opposing left turn lanes.

431
00:41:16,050 --> 00:41:18,910
It will be restrips so that there's opposing left turn lanes,

432
00:41:19,090 --> 00:41:22,270
which is typically the way left turn lanes are set up.

433
00:41:22,490 --> 00:41:24,990
If you're in a left turn lane, generally across from you,

434
00:41:25,450 --> 00:41:28,430
it's either another card turning in the opposite direction

435
00:41:28,430 --> 00:41:28,650
left.

436
00:41:28,650 --> 00:41:33,750
Well, the one, you know, it's not all that clear,

437
00:41:33,870 --> 00:41:35,410
but you can't say it in the shaded sections

438
00:41:35,410 --> 00:41:37,090
at the bottom of your drawing.

439
00:41:37,370 --> 00:41:39,370
But I think there's a drawing on the entrance

440
00:41:39,370 --> 00:41:44,470
that's near the drug store, but you can't make a left-end to it because the barrier is

441
00:41:44,470 --> 00:41:44,970
there.

442
00:41:45,430 --> 00:41:49,090
So if you want a little bit of the drug store or the bank, you make a left-end to that other

443
00:41:49,090 --> 00:41:52,790
dry right, which you can see, which is directly opposite yours.

444
00:41:54,310 --> 00:41:56,210
You think you can somehow make that work?

445
00:41:57,450 --> 00:42:03,510
That's the preferred alignment from Penndott's standpoint to have the driveways aligned.

446
00:42:07,750 --> 00:42:16,270
You don't show a left turn out of the TV bank driveway and yet there is a left turn there too.

447
00:42:16,550 --> 00:42:17,050
Time to make it.

448
00:42:19,050 --> 00:42:26,990
But we're restricted, Valley Square is restricted from turning left out of our driveway.

449
00:42:27,870 --> 00:42:31,650
Well, across the street it should be shown right and left.

450
00:42:33,030 --> 00:42:38,050
I think if there were a way to put it further down the street road, it would be helpful.

451
00:42:38,490 --> 00:42:45,070
Well, the other comment that I have up here when you put this connection and you made a very nice

452
00:42:45,070 --> 00:42:47,030
contiguous path to Main Street.

453
00:42:47,870 --> 00:42:53,590
I absolutely don't see any reason why you can't create the same similar path perhaps over here

454
00:42:54,150 --> 00:42:57,130
to line it up so that you have a more natural flow of traffic.

455
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:03,960
I'm just going back to the, you know, the original discussions and permitting with Penn

456
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:04,200
Dodd.

457
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,540
Well, let me, let me state something for the record.

458
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,060
We honestly don't care about what was previously approved.

459
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,220
You're bringing set of documents in from scratch.

460
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:16,820
We're going to evaluate these.

461
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:22,800
We just went through this conversation rather heatedly with a different applicant.

462
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,080
That no longer is appropriate for discussion.

463
00:43:28,700 --> 00:43:31,240
You have no vested interest in those plans.

464
00:43:32,340 --> 00:43:36,700
So what's on the table now is what we were commenting on.

465
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:42,840
You can make your own decisions based on history, but please don't use that as an excuse

466
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,300
to expect us to simply...

467
00:43:45,300 --> 00:43:48,940
What had previously been permitted in the reason why we selected this...

468
00:43:48,940 --> 00:43:55,000
But that doesn't apply to us, and it goes to stating facts, that's all.

469
00:43:55,200 --> 00:44:01,280
To go back to what Bill was saying, there are two considerations there on Street Road.

470
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:09,920
There are at least two times a day that the traffic going towards 611 on Street Road can be backed up,

471
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:15,460
pass the other entrance to Valley Square for a considerable amount of time.

472
00:44:15,460 --> 00:44:23,580
And obviously, where this to become successful, it would actually create more traffic there.

473
00:44:27,030 --> 00:44:34,530
From in the traffic there is what he said about, there is a left turn from TD bank, try and make it.

474
00:44:35,350 --> 00:44:36,290
It's impossible.

475
00:44:39,330 --> 00:44:45,890
For lack of a longer discussion, please be cognizant of the fact that traffic will be an important issue.

476
00:44:47,170 --> 00:44:54,150
We're trying to find ways to minimize conflicts and not create additional ones.

477
00:44:55,410 --> 00:44:55,790
Note it.

478
00:45:04,370 --> 00:45:08,170
Is there anything on your review letter that's noteworthy?

479
00:45:08,170 --> 00:45:14,590
Oh, I think there's definitely something you should talk about. Do you want to start as certain comments you'd like to go through?

480
00:45:14,970 --> 00:45:20,110
I was waiting for that opportunity. First of all, thank you for the review.

481
00:45:21,030 --> 00:45:32,550
It's helpful. And for the most part, there's the responses, so it would be a little complied, but there are a couple of points that we really ought to talk about.

482
00:45:35,510 --> 00:45:43,650
I touched on, I briefly touched on the zoning issue, comment one, the restaurant with

483
00:45:43,650 --> 00:45:50,590
a drive-thru, that would require conditional use, and I just want to make clear if I

484
00:45:50,590 --> 00:45:59,670
didn't do so earlier that this design was the drive-thru was placed on the sketch plan

485
00:45:59,670 --> 00:46:02,390
to give I start a marketing flexibility.

486
00:46:04,110 --> 00:46:11,310
I want to make clear that a restaurant user has a specific restaurant user has not been

487
00:46:11,310 --> 00:46:12,670
identified for this site.

488
00:46:12,750 --> 00:46:15,370
It may be a drive-thru, it may not be.

489
00:46:15,870 --> 00:46:22,850
The purpose of showing the restaurant as it is, I start at least an agent thought that this

490
00:46:22,850 --> 00:46:32,890
be a good site for a restaurant and as the planning process goes forward, it might be the case

491
00:46:32,890 --> 00:46:44,130
that a user is more clearly identified. If that user requires a drive through, then of course conditional use approval will be part of the approval process.

492
00:46:44,130 --> 00:46:52,130
But if that user, if that operator does not need a drive-through, then of course that option

493
00:46:52,130 --> 00:46:53,070
will be eliminated.

494
00:46:54,230 --> 00:47:01,770
I also want to make clear that I star is not marketing exclusively to restaurants, so that

495
00:47:03,370 --> 00:47:05,130
specialize in takeout.

496
00:47:05,130 --> 00:47:14,530
They've engaged very capable, up-leasing agent, who's marketing the site to a multitude of users.

497
00:47:15,670 --> 00:47:17,350
As for the other zoning issues,

498
00:47:19,830 --> 00:47:25,570
I touched upon comment 5B, the need for a traffic impact study.

499
00:47:27,130 --> 00:47:31,470
And I touched on the requirements who would hear to the corridor overlay.

500
00:47:33,310 --> 00:47:41,310
I started didn't want to talk a little bit about common 5D, which is the environmental assessment report.

501
00:47:42,630 --> 00:47:52,430
Now, there had been an environmental assessment report submitted with the approval of the Valley Square Project as a whole.

502
00:47:52,430 --> 00:47:56,870
that's part of the township of archives,

503
00:47:59,590 --> 00:48:04,810
in terms of an environmental impact. In terms of

504
00:48:04,810 --> 00:48:14,110
environmental impact, I noted that in the subdivision and land development comments that

505
00:48:14,110 --> 00:48:26,090
be Section 2 comment 1, CKS had recommended that the wetland study be updated, and they

506
00:48:26,090 --> 00:48:33,570
have no objection to that, and it would be willing to update that study, and that's probably

507
00:48:33,570 --> 00:48:39,550
a good idea to do so, and they will not commission that study. But in terms of the environmental

508
00:48:39,550 --> 00:48:47,970
impact assessment report. When you look at the ordinance, an awful lot of that report is

509
00:48:47,970 --> 00:48:56,130
really not environmental in nature. And if there are specific items that are not otherwise

510
00:48:56,830 --> 00:49:04,550
covered during the traditional land development approval process, for example, there has to

511
00:49:04,550 --> 00:49:09,710
compliance with a natural resource protection standard in the zoning ordinance.

512
00:49:10,730 --> 00:49:16,210
And that requires, you know, that requires attention to what woodlands, disturbance.

513
00:49:17,130 --> 00:49:21,990
It requires attention to other environmentally sensitive lands.

514
00:49:22,550 --> 00:49:27,570
There's other sections that require attention to stormwater management.

515
00:49:27,570 --> 00:49:37,430
And of course, that has environmental implications, and I start as willing to, is certainly willing to comply with those regulations.

516
00:49:37,990 --> 00:49:47,270
But if there are specific aspects of the environmental assessment that the Planning Commission or CKS fields need to be addressed,

517
00:49:48,350 --> 00:49:50,330
like to know what those would be.

518
00:49:54,710 --> 00:49:59,730
And I guess you're saying you'd rather not do a full environmental impact assessment.

519
00:50:00,690 --> 00:50:02,830
Well, there was one done, right?

520
00:50:02,930 --> 00:50:03,550
No, I'm not.

521
00:50:03,550 --> 00:50:03,750
I'm not.

522
00:50:03,870 --> 00:50:04,050
I'm not.

523
00:50:04,290 --> 00:50:04,810
I'm not.

524
00:50:05,050 --> 00:50:05,330
You know,

525
00:50:07,770 --> 00:50:09,830
to do an environmental impact assessment.

526
00:50:10,270 --> 00:50:10,350
I don't know.

527
00:50:10,470 --> 00:50:10,550
I don't know.

528
00:50:10,550 --> 00:50:10,610
I don't know.

529
00:50:10,610 --> 00:50:10,970
I don't know.

530
00:50:11,050 --> 00:50:11,890
I don't know.

531
00:50:12,370 --> 00:50:16,350
It's an expensive proposition.

532
00:50:16,770 --> 00:50:17,770
I couldn't agree more.

533
00:50:18,010 --> 00:50:22,290
And if it's, look, if it's going to give information that the

534
00:50:22,290 --> 00:50:29,930
municipality needs to make an informed decision, I start won't resist, but if the purpose

535
00:50:29,930 --> 00:50:41,110
of an impact study is to make an environmental engineer happy, and if it's addressing things

536
00:50:41,110 --> 00:50:46,350
that really don't add to the body of knowledge, that the planning commissioner of the

537
00:50:46,350 --> 00:50:51,850
governing body needs, it doesn't serve much of a purpose, and that was the genesis of

538
00:50:51,850 --> 00:50:59,470
question, if there's something that you feel needs to be addressed, that's not already

539
00:50:59,470 --> 00:51:04,970
part of the approval process. Certainly, I start as willing, you know, would be willing

540
00:51:04,970 --> 00:51:06,830
to address those.

541
00:51:07,430 --> 00:51:13,110
Mr. Banner, I think anything that is of that particular nature, that type of resource ought

542
00:51:13,110 --> 00:51:18,390
to be reusable to some degree. I mean, if it just needs to be dust that offer update it,

543
00:51:18,390 --> 00:51:22,130
I mean, as your plan moves forward, I think you have to deal with it accordingly.

544
00:51:22,590 --> 00:51:25,250
You know, we still have the right to request a waiver.

545
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:31,880
That's correct.

546
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:34,560
Well, that's actually under the zoning.

547
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:39,720
But I would suggest that you would submit the report that was previously submitted, and

548
00:51:39,720 --> 00:51:42,760
we would look through and see if there's any additional information or an update that

549
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:47,400
would be necessary to it instead of actually doing the whole report, see what the original

550
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:48,740
report had in it.

551
00:51:48,740 --> 00:51:52,760
Could you said one was submitted originally with his land development correct way back in

552
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:54,900
Division of application?

553
00:51:56,280 --> 00:52:00,740
There was there was a report. Okay. The challenge is finding it.

554
00:52:06,510 --> 00:52:10,930
Who owns the parcel just to the east of there?

555
00:52:11,290 --> 00:52:14,230
That woodlands and welllands is just across valley square.

556
00:52:15,070 --> 00:52:17,910
When you're talking about all the different owners of different tracks,

557
00:52:17,910 --> 00:52:20,750
I'm not, I'm not, I could be wrongs.

558
00:52:21,110 --> 00:52:24,850
The parcel, just the east of Valley Square here.

559
00:52:25,790 --> 00:52:27,770
And I'm adjacent to Street Road.

560
00:52:28,830 --> 00:52:30,490
You tell them about it on the east side of Valley Square,

561
00:52:30,610 --> 00:52:31,030
but the part?

562
00:52:31,310 --> 00:52:33,650
Yeah, it's on there towards the family valley.

563
00:52:33,990 --> 00:52:34,710
Pardon me?

564
00:52:35,050 --> 00:52:36,650
It's the front-age.

565
00:52:36,830 --> 00:52:39,470
Because if you tell a square and, like,

566
00:52:40,410 --> 00:52:44,270
the family having it, that front-age is on the tating wall?

567
00:52:44,690 --> 00:52:44,970
Yes.

568
00:52:44,970 --> 00:52:50,090
That's part of that shopping center parcel that has the more traditional section.

569
00:52:51,830 --> 00:52:52,810
I don't know the owner.

570
00:52:53,390 --> 00:53:00,790
Well, the operator is allied properties and I think the owner is values where one LLC.

571
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:14,960
Foundry to this parcel is this yellow line here.

572
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,080
Well, it doesn't show on the plan.

573
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:21,400
Presumble your plan to try to save some of those woods that are on your property.

574
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:27,500
especially those areas where there are no buildings in your proposal.

575
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:29,420
You're further down in this area down.

576
00:53:29,820 --> 00:53:32,400
Yeah, down that end, and it sort of curves around.

577
00:53:32,780 --> 00:53:35,220
This area down here is wooded.

578
00:53:35,580 --> 00:53:37,780
Yeah, and on your property it's also wooded.

579
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,740
And there's some areas there that you're not proposing for any development at all.

580
00:53:42,180 --> 00:53:45,340
In presumably, you would preserve the forested areas there.

581
00:53:46,260 --> 00:53:47,840
The sketch plan doesn't address it.

582
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:49,660
I think we'd be looking for that.

583
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:53,280
The stream corridor comes wraps around the back of the site here.

584
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,620
And then comes down and goes under stream row.

585
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,460
There's a small portion of land between Valesquare Boulevard

586
00:53:59,460 --> 00:54:01,380
and the property line for this parcel

587
00:54:01,380 --> 00:54:05,100
that is owned by the village, the village area.

588
00:54:06,580 --> 00:54:08,860
And that's essentially that stream corridor

589
00:54:08,860 --> 00:54:10,720
that goes down under there.

590
00:54:10,740 --> 00:54:12,600
Isn't that this line right here?

591
00:54:17,140 --> 00:54:19,600
That's a setback line.

592
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:20,840
That's not the actual stream.

593
00:54:20,900 --> 00:54:22,420
The actual stream is off the property.

594
00:54:22,420 --> 00:54:23,880
You can see it here.

595
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:28,100
It's looking at one of the overall plans of chose at a cross-touched area, and I can't

596
00:54:28,100 --> 00:54:34,420
see what the cross-touching stands for at this scale, but it's usually a do not touch.

597
00:54:36,100 --> 00:54:44,340
It's an offset of the actual stream corridor itself to establish what the ordinance referred

598
00:54:44,340 --> 00:54:50,840
to as a type 1 stream, which is defined by soils and the word flood-slaying area.

599
00:54:52,380 --> 00:54:57,620
And from that, then there is a 100-foot setback to actual building structures.

600
00:54:58,500 --> 00:55:02,720
So I guess the question is though, even though you show this area back here as being what

601
00:55:02,720 --> 00:55:07,740
I would perceive as a grass area, you're obviously not going to clear it and grass out.

602
00:55:09,580 --> 00:55:15,000
That's the point, you know, when your next plan should show where the woods are and where

603
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,560
you're playing to take them out and where you don't plan to take them out.

604
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:25,160
And that's part of the preliminary plan requirements.

605
00:55:35,270 --> 00:55:44,350
I think our only point is that to the maximum extent possible consistent with being able to develop the site, you should try to preserve those forested areas.

606
00:55:55,290 --> 00:56:02,810
There's one other comment, and that's the general engineering considerations, come in three.

607
00:56:03,590 --> 00:56:16,290
And that's a comment that recommends the applicant's review, the location, the proposed internal drive and the Tom, could you address it?

608
00:56:16,390 --> 00:56:17,930
You maybe could highlight it on the...

609
00:56:17,930 --> 00:56:19,050
Yeah, I

610
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:30,740
take your comment about potentially shifting the access point, that's something that, you know, I don't think this is speaking to you.

611
00:56:30,740 --> 00:56:35,280
talking about extending this access up to Main Street here.

612
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:35,700
That's correct.

613
00:56:37,060 --> 00:56:39,980
What this plan doesn't show is that the

614
00:56:39,980 --> 00:56:42,520
topography in that area, there's a significant

615
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:47,160
great drop between this area here and the road.

616
00:56:47,980 --> 00:56:50,640
There's about nine feet of elevation difference.

617
00:56:52,020 --> 00:56:56,660
So the grading from to extend that road out to here would be

618
00:56:56,660 --> 00:57:04,240
challenging it would also, you know, make this access drive around the back of these buildings.

619
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:11,960
We wouldn't probably wouldn't be able to accommodate that in terms of a loading area for these buildings here, it would have other impacts.

620
00:57:14,810 --> 00:57:24,270
So, I guess my comment kind of touched upon what some of the planning commission members have said here, as far as there's just so much cross, I mean there's

621
00:57:24,270 --> 00:57:29,390
Cross traffic and there is no loop or continuity and I'm very concerned there's no loading

622
00:57:29,390 --> 00:57:34,210
I'm loading area some of another common in our letter and the pedestrian walkways

623
00:57:34,210 --> 00:57:39,310
So we were trying to channelize things there and I have a senior elevation channel to I didn't until now

624
00:57:39,310 --> 00:57:44,150
Any type of circulation planning one of your big objectives is to avoid cross traffic

625
00:57:45,290 --> 00:57:48,650
And this plan really maximizes cross traffic

626
00:57:48,650 --> 00:57:54,450
And that's why I keep trying to suggest that within its own concept, it can be a lot better.

627
00:58:01,670 --> 00:58:07,450
Can I go back to a point you made about the front of the buildings facing the roadway?

628
00:58:09,510 --> 00:58:18,130
What would you envision the parking to support that? Do you envision parking then being between the building and the roadway?

629
00:58:18,130 --> 00:58:21,130
Or, at that particular intersection,

630
00:58:21,590 --> 00:58:23,070
unfortunately, I'd have to say yes.

631
00:58:23,470 --> 00:58:26,270
I don't think we want the rear of a building

632
00:58:26,270 --> 00:58:28,750
being the first thing you see at the intersection

633
00:58:28,750 --> 00:58:32,470
of six-eleven and street road in Warrington, Township.

634
00:58:34,870 --> 00:58:36,810
Especially that close to the corner.

635
00:58:38,070 --> 00:58:39,390
That's just wrong.

636
00:58:51,890 --> 00:58:53,210
As far as the engineering comments,

637
00:58:53,870 --> 00:58:57,750
I, you know, there's really not more to discuss,

638
00:58:59,110 --> 00:59:10,930
I think we've had a good conversation about the overall planning aspects, people have made

639
00:59:10,930 --> 00:59:11,770
a lot of comments.

640
00:59:12,710 --> 00:59:19,330
I start needs to evaluate them, is there anything else that a planning standpoint that

641
00:59:19,330 --> 00:59:20,150
members have?

642
00:59:20,530 --> 00:59:25,330
Well, just to summarize, we're all collectively on the same page, I think the general thrust

643
00:59:25,330 --> 00:59:33,370
would be, you may need to evaluate what your end user concept plan really is if it's going

644
00:59:33,370 --> 00:59:40,390
to be more segmented and conventional, mom and pop type stores than these buildings.

645
00:59:41,210 --> 00:59:45,290
You might really want to consider consolidating buildings and make it more conventional.

646
00:59:45,890 --> 00:59:47,570
It's going to be an easier proposition.

647
00:59:48,530 --> 00:59:54,050
If you're going to have more proposed single user buildings, that's a different scheme

648
00:59:54,050 --> 00:59:59,870
completely, and assuming that that is the marketing plan to have.

649
01:00:00,270 --> 01:00:11,330
The users that our single users, any connection between other users would be incidental and not the primary thrust.

650
01:00:11,570 --> 01:00:27,950
For example, somebody who's visiting patient care, depending upon the hour of the appointment, might want to get a bite to eat lunch, for example.

651
01:00:27,950 --> 01:00:36,950
And there might be some feet off from that, but if the scheme is to have essentially

652
01:00:36,950 --> 01:00:43,030
separat users, and that's what the concept, that's what the marketing scheme is.

653
01:00:46,530 --> 01:00:53,050
I think we've all understood the comments about looking at the internal circulation,

654
01:00:55,650 --> 01:00:55,770
what

655
01:00:55,770 --> 01:00:57,930
would there be any additional comments

656
01:00:57,930 --> 01:01:01,330
that the latter marketing scheme?

657
01:01:01,610 --> 01:01:03,550
Well, I don't think we really have much to say

658
01:01:03,550 --> 01:01:04,850
about your marketing scheme.

659
01:01:05,210 --> 01:01:06,850
You're in the business, you know the market.

660
01:01:06,850 --> 01:01:10,350
It's a question of what works and practicalities

661
01:01:10,350 --> 01:01:12,250
for us and what doesn't.

662
01:01:12,390 --> 01:01:14,190
I mean, this whole section up here

663
01:01:14,190 --> 01:01:19,050
is kind of congested and misaligned from a traffic standpoint.

664
01:01:19,270 --> 01:01:22,350
They're the kind of things that create bottlenecks

665
01:01:22,350 --> 01:01:24,510
all over the place in the comments

666
01:01:24,510 --> 01:01:31,250
from our perspective are the more commonality that you can get in your drive aisle alignment

667
01:01:31,250 --> 01:01:37,650
the better. And if you can allow for some areas where you can actually provide intermittent

668
01:01:37,650 --> 01:01:43,610
sidewalks to at least get from one side to the other of the development, we're not saying

669
01:01:43,610 --> 01:01:49,490
everything has to be connected, but you should provide for some type of pedestrian traffic.

670
01:01:51,910 --> 01:01:58,730
Just to expand in that a little, it's not so much that their individual buildings are companies

671
01:01:58,730 --> 01:02:09,070
whose building is their brand, like McDonald's, Burger King, Thunkham, Donuts, you know,

672
01:02:11,020 --> 01:02:13,960
then maybe they want a free standing building because their building is their brand.

673
01:02:14,820 --> 01:02:20,140
But the Carter overlay district itself discourages that sort of thing, as language that says,

674
01:02:20,140 --> 01:02:24,720
people that have a building as a brand may need to consider to change it in order to accommodate

675
01:02:25,620 --> 01:02:32,540
a more unified design pattern. And most of the companies that have buildings of brand

676
01:02:32,540 --> 01:02:37,720
are fast food anyway, I'm struggling to think of any people that use office buildings

677
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:45,300
that are that way. So I'm not seeing the need for eight free standing buildings or

678
01:02:45,300 --> 01:02:51,320
So the bank is a good example of building as a brand, and certainly the restaurant.

679
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:54,460
But the others, I'm not sure that's true.

680
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:56,800
Well, let's say say.

681
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:00,440
If it is true, that's a reason to try to do this.

682
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:07,780
I start recognizing that the property is in the corridor over late district, and they understand

683
01:03:07,780 --> 01:03:13,060
that the corridor over late district requires a uniform meeting in architectural elements.

684
01:03:14,340 --> 01:03:17,860
and they understand that a warrant and temperature

685
01:03:17,860 --> 01:03:24,040
is sensitive to what those needs when the plans come

686
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:25,440
before you,

687
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:31,600
those considerations will be taken into account.

688
01:03:32,540 --> 01:03:36,340
And if that means with the individual load buildings,

689
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:41,180
perhaps reoriented a bit to address some of the comments

690
01:03:41,180 --> 01:03:44,460
that individual members have made tonight.

691
01:03:47,780 --> 01:04:01,200
It is possible, not possible, it's required that there be, that there be a unified architectural element that will look through the entire graph.

692
01:04:01,620 --> 01:04:03,280
I hope that the builder may release them.

693
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:09,420
I'm just not struggling for a reason to do this because, I mean, that's a reason because you don't want to invest in all of it.

694
01:04:09,420 --> 01:04:12,700
when you can only rent one part of it right now.

695
01:04:13,700 --> 01:04:18,580
But, you know, apps and something like that, it would make more sense to have a more

696
01:04:18,580 --> 01:04:20,680
consolidated plan with better circulation.

697
01:04:22,850 --> 01:04:26,130
I don't think those concepts are mutually exclusive.

698
01:04:28,210 --> 01:04:32,270
You might want to look a little more into this sketch.

699
01:04:34,470 --> 01:04:36,170
It's rudimentary as it is.

700
01:04:36,370 --> 01:04:43,810
It seems to absolutely answer some of the concerns that we've been talking about.

701
01:04:44,330 --> 01:04:48,650
The placement of the buildings, the sidewalks, et cetera, et cetera.

702
01:04:49,950 --> 01:04:53,130
That may be of been what they were thinking when they did that sketch.

703
01:04:55,130 --> 01:05:01,370
Well, that part is true, but the sketch also eliminates direct access to that.

704
01:05:01,370 --> 01:05:18,990
That's a separate issue and that's uh, I'm just talking about the actual, they did away with one, they joined three, they turned what will probably be the patient first towards the intersection and the restaurant and the banker across from each other.

705
01:05:18,990 --> 01:05:38,590
It's just something that I start to look at and if there's a way to, if there's a way to preserve access to a street road, which is an economic necessity, certainly nobody is dismissive of anybody's good ideas.

706
01:05:39,450 --> 01:05:46,650
I think your access point on street road is going to be relegated to your traffic counts when they come back.

707
01:05:46,650 --> 01:05:50,470
That will have to make very good sense.

708
01:05:51,350 --> 01:05:52,670
I do have one more question.

709
01:05:55,670 --> 01:05:58,190
Side walk or the path that you show up here.

710
01:05:59,110 --> 01:06:04,750
There's a reason why we're not going all the way out to the traffic signal in the straight line.

711
01:06:08,260 --> 01:06:10,260
There's quite a bit of elevation difference.

712
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:22,640
There's a, there's a very steep slope probably two to one slope that goes down from the edge of the edge of pavement on the street road down to the stream corridor.

713
01:06:23,420 --> 01:06:27,280
The culvert that goes under street road, essentially a fill condition there.

714
01:06:30,020 --> 01:06:36,660
So it's going to room to provide sidewalk along within the right way there up to Valley Square Boulevard.

715
01:06:37,260 --> 01:06:39,240
Is there any point to that sidewalk?

716
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:40,780
Are you going to bridge the stream?

717
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:48,800
There's actually an old bridge there right now, the old road alignment for Street Road used to follow that.

718
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:49,580
That's interesting.

719
01:06:50,620 --> 01:06:56,680
And then I guess if it was going to be continued, it would be the next door property owner would have to do that.

720
01:06:56,940 --> 01:07:03,560
There is, I don't know how far they've kind of lost track of how far they extended the trail down.

721
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:10,780
That is where Boulevard. It does at least come to Main Street, where Main Street and Valley Square Boulevard.

722
01:07:11,220 --> 01:07:16,180
Connect, and I think it may go across, but I'm not, we have to look into that.

723
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:21,780
That was the original concept that was to create that loop.

724
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:39,140
I just have one question on, in the connectivity of the sidewalk, so the ordinance speaks to internal roadways.

725
01:07:39,140 --> 01:07:42,040
It's something to find that in this case.

726
01:07:42,220 --> 01:07:43,780
What would you consider being turned over?

727
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:44,600
You don't have any.

728
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:45,660
That's one of the problems.

729
01:07:46,580 --> 01:07:52,640
But the only area that qualifies as an internal roadway in much you've drawn is the one right,

730
01:07:52,820 --> 01:07:54,320
you know, the one coming on the street road.

731
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:56,400
And you six eleven.

732
01:07:56,440 --> 01:07:57,960
And made eastern road or not?

733
01:07:57,960 --> 01:07:59,840
No, also street road.

734
01:08:00,420 --> 01:08:02,600
All the rest of them look like parking lot access drives.

735
01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:07,300
Well, I guess the one that comes off eastern road to where it connects with,

736
01:08:07,300 --> 01:08:13,960
with Maine could be, you know, but that's what creates all this cross traffic, because everybody

737
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:18,680
who wants to go anywhere is in parking lot lanes instead of on an access road.

738
01:08:25,700 --> 01:08:29,680
Were you talking specifically about zoning and comment number three?

739
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:30,680
Yeah.

740
01:09:33,100 --> 01:09:35,880
But we can give you a definitive answer on that.

741
01:09:36,020 --> 01:09:39,340
I think we're going to have to leave it up to you to realize the comments that we've

742
01:09:39,340 --> 01:09:44,050
made and see if you can provide some depth or anything.

743
01:09:44,050 --> 01:09:44,330
That's my pathway.

744
01:09:44,330 --> 01:09:45,410
I think this

745
01:09:50,690 --> 01:09:53,510
has been a productive conversation.

746
01:09:55,130 --> 01:09:59,730
Members have made some comments that I start needs to evaluate.

747
01:10:00,770 --> 01:10:05,970
I'm not sure that we are going to move the process much further along, but I don't

748
01:10:06,890 --> 01:10:12,090
mean to discourage anybody from making comments, but it seems as if we pretty much exhaust

749
01:10:12,090 --> 01:10:12,490
a thing.

750
01:10:12,930 --> 01:10:14,810
Just one more question for clarification.

751
01:10:15,110 --> 01:10:19,590
This is a completely self-sufficient development, so all the stormwater management

752
01:10:19,590 --> 01:10:21,110
that will be dealt with independently.

753
01:10:24,900 --> 01:10:26,480
Yeah, all the stormwater management generated

754
01:10:26,480 --> 01:10:29,100
on the site is handled by this site.

755
01:10:29,380 --> 01:10:29,880
Yeah, we're not really able to do it.

756
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:31,860
It didn't know why it was contemplated

757
01:10:31,860 --> 01:10:34,100
that this was handled by the previous construction.

758
01:10:44,030 --> 01:10:47,010
There are any comments from anyone in the audience this evening.

759
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:54,100
Any comments from anybody on board?

760
01:10:57,910 --> 01:10:59,430
The comments from you, Mr. Mayor.

761
01:11:00,230 --> 01:11:02,050
Yeah, I would like for you again, sir.

762
01:11:02,190 --> 01:11:06,210
I'm very disturbed by the failure of the flight.

763
01:11:06,210 --> 01:11:14,890
any method for pedestrians to have access from one retail store to another.

764
01:11:15,470 --> 01:11:22,030
I think we have, it's not only a question of convenience, it's a question of safety,

765
01:11:23,770 --> 01:11:27,030
especially as we're getting into snow season,

766
01:11:27,550 --> 01:11:33,210
the thought of people having to track from one store to another by foot,

767
01:11:33,210 --> 01:11:37,050
I have to move cars from one building to another.

768
01:11:38,290 --> 01:11:46,410
It just seems so logical that when you're at this state and planning to plan this way.

769
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:57,460
Thank you Fred. We know that comment.

770
01:11:59,020 --> 01:12:02,320
I do have one more question because I can't see any answer to this.

771
01:12:02,660 --> 01:12:07,480
When you're sketching on plans and looking at in between the center lines of all these driveways,

772
01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:09,720
you have some paper cross hatching.

773
01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:16,660
It goes right down here. It looks like it's creating little little parcels. What's the reason behind that?

774
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:24,920
Like every little parking island is boxed in.

775
01:12:27,140 --> 01:12:29,080
Are you referring to the little dashed lines?

776
01:12:29,240 --> 01:12:31,300
Yes, that's a center line of every driveway.

777
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:36,320
It's just a set of lines.

778
01:12:36,780 --> 01:12:38,060
There's no intent for

779
01:12:40,460 --> 01:12:45,200
just generated through the alignment of the,

780
01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:49,480
we'll need to develop the layout as set of lines throughout it.

781
01:12:54,750 --> 01:12:56,930
It's not meant in terms of self-division.

782
01:12:57,130 --> 01:12:58,570
I just didn't see a reason for it.

783
01:12:58,870 --> 01:12:59,550
I'm just question.

784
01:13:11,110 --> 01:13:11,890
We're done.

785
01:13:12,190 --> 01:13:13,710
I'm going to share with you other comments or questions.

786
01:13:17,090 --> 01:13:19,410
I want to thank the Applanet's mission for Ratec and Time.

787
01:13:19,410 --> 01:13:22,490
and wish everybody a very Christmas.

788
01:13:23,070 --> 01:13:23,530
Thank you.

789
01:13:23,650 --> 01:13:25,310
Thank you.

790
01:13:48,450 --> 01:13:51,260
All right.

791
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:54,000
Moving on, I remember five on the agenda,

792
01:13:54,320 --> 01:13:55,420
comprehensive plan.

793
01:13:58,770 --> 01:14:01,270
What I see you've printed out copies of,

794
01:14:01,270 --> 01:14:04,010
is this all three of the sections that David had

795
01:14:04,010 --> 01:14:05,430
forwarded to us?

796
01:14:06,710 --> 01:14:08,030
Oh, I'm sorry.

797
01:14:08,710 --> 01:14:10,870
This is a bill for yours.

798
01:14:11,490 --> 01:14:14,270
You know, we do have his sections electronically.

799
01:14:14,910 --> 01:14:15,190
Right.

800
01:14:15,190 --> 01:14:20,190
I don't want to do that because I want to see that one.

801
01:14:21,350 --> 01:14:22,230
I'm totally mindful.

802
01:14:23,570 --> 01:14:24,750
I didn't get it until I'm there.

803
01:14:28,490 --> 01:14:31,430
So there come before I have to, the county comment letter.

804
01:14:31,990 --> 01:14:32,930
I love about five hours.

805
01:14:34,890 --> 01:14:36,890
Literally the county's letter team will go.

806
01:14:37,430 --> 01:14:37,950
Six blocks.

807
01:14:38,210 --> 01:14:39,130
Oh, they give them six.

808
01:14:39,750 --> 01:14:43,430
And they get paid.

809
01:14:43,910 --> 01:14:44,270
And they get paid.

810
01:14:44,270 --> 01:14:48,110
excuse me, I don't care if you can see

811
01:14:50,610 --> 01:14:50,610
it.

812
01:14:51,390 --> 01:14:55,850
So this is, you can see that there's a color difference

813
01:14:55,850 --> 01:14:59,870
between the red changes of the ones that we had made before.

814
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:07,880
Four, and the blue are the changes made as a result of our discussions two weeks ago.

815
01:15:29,860 --> 01:15:39,620
And once again, I think, after 14, there are no changes, it's just ready to first, 14 pages on what you have here that we're working with.

816
01:15:39,620 --> 01:15:55,620
The biggest is the sort of the everyday debuffer part of Farmount to make it more that natural buffers should predominate.

817
01:16:39,220 --> 01:16:43,220
I will leave it up to everyone's wishes here.

818
01:16:43,400 --> 01:16:48,820
Personally, I would like to review this a little bit more in depth and not necessarily this evening.

819
01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:53,560
I don't know if

820
01:17:10,070 --> 01:17:11,330
anyone feels contrary.

821
01:17:12,930 --> 01:17:15,050
I think we'll just table this till the next agenda.

822
01:17:17,660 --> 01:17:19,760
Everyone can please review it.

823
01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:26,380
The comments that you made about buffering, I mean,

824
01:17:26,380 --> 01:17:31,100
I just peruse them very quickly, but at some point in time,

825
01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:33,540
as we address the ordinances in general,

826
01:17:34,700 --> 01:17:36,020
there's a buffering

827
01:17:38,360 --> 01:17:41,360
void in the overall ordinance,

828
01:17:41,360 --> 01:17:45,660
It's not just specifically in this particular visker.

829
01:17:48,430 --> 01:17:50,750
I want to try to keep the flavor and content.

830
01:17:51,510 --> 01:17:53,410
Naturally, this is going to be the work and progress

831
01:17:53,410 --> 01:17:58,830
to move it into a broader classification across the township.

832
01:17:59,250 --> 01:17:59,630
Uh-huh.

833
01:18:00,870 --> 01:18:01,810
That makes sense.

834
01:18:05,980 --> 01:18:06,260
All right.

835
01:18:06,540 --> 01:18:10,540
To get back to the comprehensive plan and the sections

836
01:18:10,540 --> 01:18:12,760
that did come in from David Zip,

837
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:15,480
has everybody had a chance to go through those?

838
01:18:23,220 --> 01:18:32,140
I don't know if there's anything noteworthy that we need to contend with, there's a couple

839
01:18:32,140 --> 01:18:38,960
little typos and things that I've seen, but I guess we can get through those in the final

840
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:40,000
draft format.

841
01:18:47,070 --> 01:18:56,550
Was it the intention to do a working draft tonight on this or to make comments back to David?

842
01:18:58,110 --> 01:19:04,030
Now, really, it's just, for, I mean, again, where we left this, is we're relying on the

843
01:19:04,030 --> 01:19:06,970
book's county planning commission to basically do the draft.

844
01:19:09,470 --> 01:19:12,470
At that point in time, he sent us the first three sections.

845
01:19:13,350 --> 01:19:19,190
We can certainly review them in common amongst ourselves, but I don't see anything happening

846
01:19:19,190 --> 01:19:27,470
until that complete draft gets assembled in all its components and gets officially commented

847
01:19:27,470 --> 01:19:30,490
on and passed on to the Board of Supervisors.

848
01:19:32,210 --> 01:19:38,070
I suppose if there's anything he's done and I didn't see anything that you find really

849
01:19:38,070 --> 01:19:44,050
troubling could get back from sooner, but I didn't really see anything that way.

850
01:19:45,350 --> 01:19:51,270
I mean, he's taken basically the mechanical section of it and tweaked it to bring it up

851
01:19:51,270 --> 01:19:58,170
today's standard, what he still has yet to do is provide the theoretical part, and that's

852
01:19:58,170 --> 01:20:01,250
what we have really been discussing for the most part.

853
01:20:03,010 --> 01:20:06,970
So, when I, okay, but I think he might have,

854
01:20:09,020 --> 01:20:10,860
when I looked at it, I thought maybe there

855
01:20:10,860 --> 01:20:16,320
are some things that we might comment back to him that would make our life easier when it comes

856
01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:19,120
time to be looked at an entire graph.

857
01:20:21,260 --> 01:20:21,980
And specifically,

858
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:27,160
a number of people, myself, Rich,

859
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:34,500
Fred originally talked about not

860
01:20:36,610 --> 01:20:40,430
having the kind of document that was here before, where

861
01:20:40,430 --> 01:20:42,670
I don't want to get past the first two pages,

862
01:20:43,390 --> 01:20:44,810
but before he lost interest.

863
01:20:47,930 --> 01:20:52,790
So, and recognizing that your goal, which was to,

864
01:20:53,170 --> 01:20:56,250
to the best of our ability, taking an existing document,

865
01:20:59,600 --> 01:21:04,400
useful as it was, and we allow for that

866
01:21:04,400 --> 01:21:06,060
to a new useful document.

867
01:21:07,140 --> 01:21:09,340
No, I haven't said that.

868
01:21:10,100 --> 01:21:15,220
there's a lot of information in these general sections that can just as well be in some

869
01:21:15,220 --> 01:21:16,020
appendix.

870
01:21:16,340 --> 01:21:17,160
They are going to be.

871
01:21:17,740 --> 01:21:22,440
Okay, but then why wouldn't we make that comment back today, because we didn't shuffle

872
01:21:22,440 --> 01:21:23,200
the deck yet.

873
01:21:23,540 --> 01:21:30,820
When the hold deck is provided to us, we will put it together in our preferred quarter and

874
01:21:30,820 --> 01:21:32,980
then change the numbers for pages.

875
01:21:35,560 --> 01:21:41,800
And that would work, except that if you want to pick up key pieces.

876
01:21:42,840 --> 01:21:44,520
So, might just talk by way of example.

877
01:21:45,100 --> 01:21:48,520
Well, again, Ben, keep in mind that he's taken their basically chapters.

878
01:21:49,120 --> 01:21:54,080
I think there's 11 different sections in this particular document.

879
01:21:54,880 --> 01:21:56,440
He's given us three of them.

880
01:21:56,740 --> 01:22:01,160
The ones that we really care about, he was just instructed two months ago

881
01:22:01,160 --> 01:22:04,560
that it's his responsibility to do that as well.

882
01:22:04,560 --> 01:22:07,140
There are the ones that we should have done.

883
01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:12,020
I think they understand that we want certain parts in appendixes anyway, don't they?

884
01:22:12,880 --> 01:22:14,600
But didn't we tell them that when they were here?

885
01:22:15,240 --> 01:22:15,680
Yeah, they take away.

886
01:22:15,940 --> 01:22:24,680
And again, this is how we will structure the parts, and that's the way they will go back to him for the final cleanup.

887
01:22:29,920 --> 01:22:31,180
I understand your concern.

888
01:22:31,940 --> 01:22:41,640
Well, yeah, no, and where I was kind of going on this was that we had what, something like 10 sections.

889
01:22:43,180 --> 01:22:53,740
Most of them just drowned on and when you got to the bat, where you tried to make some implementation, there was no connectivity.

890
01:22:53,740 --> 01:23:04,580
So if some of the things, if let's say, let me take the people, the population housing

891
01:23:04,580 --> 01:23:11,520
trends, there are some nuggets of information in here that would be helpful to a future

892
01:23:11,520 --> 01:23:21,440
planning effort, first specifics, the, some of the demographics of the population and the

893
01:23:21,440 --> 01:23:32,480
demographics of the housing could end up with a few short sections in the preamble to the action

894
01:23:32,480 --> 01:23:33,360
part.

895
01:23:33,820 --> 01:23:35,620
This was in the back end of this document.

896
01:23:36,920 --> 01:23:39,140
I'm not expressed myself very clear.

897
01:23:39,480 --> 01:23:41,020
Which I think he's going to do.

898
01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:47,660
Again, those couple pages at the back, it is fully intended to move them up to the front.

899
01:23:47,660 --> 01:23:56,040
Okay. And everything else will be after the fact whether you're called an appendix or not, it'll be supplemental information.

900
01:23:56,980 --> 01:24:01,840
We're not going to start with the history of the township from 1870 and move forward.

901
01:24:02,240 --> 01:24:05,860
We're going to start with today and put the history behind us.

902
01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:07,280
Okay.

903
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:11,800
Yeah, the first time I read the whole comprehensive plan.

904
01:24:12,060 --> 01:24:17,540
The first thought I had was that obviously it was written for someone who already understood all of that stuff.

905
01:24:18,460 --> 01:24:24,720
which at the time that I read it I didn't actually I thought it was just the opposite

906
01:24:24,720 --> 01:24:28,420
written from somebody who would not have had not a clue what weren't in township look

907
01:24:28,420 --> 01:24:28,740
like.

908
01:24:28,960 --> 01:24:34,840
So I'm talking about the actual meeting, the meeting, the stuff that mattered.

909
01:24:35,680 --> 01:24:40,940
Well, again, that's what I fully intend to have as a executive summary approach.

910
01:24:41,740 --> 01:24:44,720
First couple pages are going to be the meat of that document.

911
01:24:45,620 --> 01:24:49,260
I'm really care about the rest of it, it's ancient history.

912
01:24:50,280 --> 01:24:55,140
How we got to this point, it creates the first couple pages.

913
01:25:01,460 --> 01:25:05,700
And I don't know quite honestly that it's worthwhile to give it back to David and drips and

914
01:25:05,700 --> 01:25:06,080
drabs.

915
01:25:06,500 --> 01:25:11,620
I think he'd be a little bit more appreciative that just get a whole comment section.

916
01:25:13,840 --> 01:25:16,520
Part of me's just being tidy is an engineering report.

917
01:25:18,300 --> 01:25:19,040
That's okay.

918
01:25:20,300 --> 01:25:25,200
Well, I mean, the reality of the situation is we're just getting a tweak to the document that's already in print.

919
01:25:26,540 --> 01:25:30,640
And at that point in time, you know, we're not doing a wholesale free rate.

920
01:25:30,640 --> 01:25:32,560
We're just doing a very selective rewrite.

921
01:25:33,780 --> 01:25:37,520
All right, let me one more comment, I'll back out of this.

922
01:25:37,520 --> 01:25:40,280
On the environmental thing, I actually had three sections.

923
01:25:42,020 --> 01:25:49,900
The third one, with our recommendations for the improvements, where you can't just accept

924
01:25:50,820 --> 01:25:57,160
that, it appeared to me that the third section might be fodder for a working session

925
01:25:57,160 --> 01:26:02,860
between us, the EAC and the Board of Supervisors, because there's a lot of things that

926
01:26:02,860 --> 01:26:07,240
if nobody ever read them and tried to implement them, you may have decided after the fact

927
01:26:07,240 --> 01:26:12,000
that you're going to have some remorse out of it,

928
01:26:12,120 --> 01:26:15,480
having a grade to this by default.

929
01:26:16,400 --> 01:26:18,160
Good evening, example, if you come.

930
01:26:18,420 --> 01:26:18,780
OK.

931
01:26:19,880 --> 01:26:21,740
When it goes in the environmental protection,

932
01:26:22,520 --> 01:26:23,940
recommendations and for improvements,

933
01:26:25,800 --> 01:26:27,060
I have to go into the document,

934
01:26:27,220 --> 01:26:29,300
because I went about to print out all that stuff.

935
01:26:29,720 --> 01:26:33,240
There's about two pages back there that say the township

936
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:34,900
ought to do this, and I think it starts

937
01:26:34,900 --> 01:26:43,640
with the riparian rights, so it's not overwhelming, but it may, the very least, the board

938
01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:48,780
of supervisors, it wouldn't want to take a look at that, and maybe we would, too, to see if

939
01:26:48,780 --> 01:26:52,780
we agreed with it, because we were right back. The very first thing that Fred and I tried

940
01:26:52,780 --> 01:26:58,560
to do is to force the board of supervisors and to have an opinion about anything on this.

941
01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:05,860
all right so the EAC very obviously has some pretty strong opinions and you either shut

942
01:27:05,860 --> 01:27:15,490
them down or agree with them to be brutal so there's that's not something the

943
01:27:15,490 --> 01:27:21,370
David should decide it's not something the EAC should unilaterally decide why

944
01:27:21,370 --> 01:27:26,530
don't go to the very end I don't think that David decided or say I mean we did

945
01:27:26,530 --> 01:27:32,890
He just, he just, he just, he just, no, he, he, he just berated and incorporated what they said.

946
01:27:33,530 --> 01:27:33,750
Right.

947
01:27:34,830 --> 01:27:35,850
Which we didn't comment on.

948
01:27:35,850 --> 01:27:37,510
Which we didn't comment on.

949
01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:46,860
Find a page for me.

950
01:27:47,060 --> 01:27:48,700
I'm not sure I'm looking at what you're describing.

951
01:27:50,860 --> 01:27:51,140
Okay.

952
01:27:51,420 --> 01:27:56,840
Go to, it's page nine, I think.

953
01:27:57,380 --> 01:28:00,800
It starts with a heading environmental protection recommendations for improvements.

954
01:28:00,800 --> 01:28:07,860
And it's got bullets on repairing buffers, well-hand protection, low-impact development,

955
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:12,420
basically saying to stop developing anything anymore, disturb any wooded areas.

956
01:28:16,420 --> 01:28:19,880
Conservation plan requirements and site analysis.

957
01:28:21,860 --> 01:28:25,120
It's not really extensive, but there are some things in here that seem to me that they were

958
01:28:25,120 --> 01:28:26,020
taking an opinion.

959
01:28:26,120 --> 01:28:28,520
Are you talking about Section 9 or Page 9?

960
01:28:28,520 --> 01:28:36,690
page 9 where it says environmental protection pages are in the 20s. This is on the environmental

961
01:28:36,690 --> 01:28:44,130
documents, 11 pages. Right, I'm looking at page 27 that says environmental protection policies

962
01:28:44,130 --> 01:28:50,950
and programs. Is that where you're at? No. No. Oh, you're talking about the document page.

963
01:28:51,270 --> 01:28:56,910
Yeah, okay. No. Where I was starting off was what is document page 31 and

964
01:29:01,930 --> 01:29:02,250
there

965
01:29:02,250 --> 01:29:12,230
There are policies and first of all, policies and programs is the meat of this thing,

966
01:29:12,550 --> 01:29:13,670
which is the second section.

967
01:29:14,290 --> 01:29:18,710
First section is all information.

968
01:29:20,230 --> 01:29:27,370
Third section, they are taking a stand on improving the policies and programs.

969
01:29:33,270 --> 01:29:37,750
So a lot of this stuff that was on environmental protection policies and programs start on

970
01:29:37,750 --> 01:29:41,110
27 is existing verbiage.

971
01:29:45,770 --> 01:29:50,270
Unfortunately, we're making a bigger document but there's not much we can do about it at this point in time.

972
01:29:54,500 --> 01:29:58,320
From what I'm remembering here, this looks like exactly the way it came back from.

973
01:29:59,540 --> 01:29:59,780
Yeah.

974
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:07,060
I'm sure he'd do it if he created it in the document format.

975
01:30:07,780 --> 01:30:11,880
I distinctly remember seeing his paragraph about a bad house and a screech out of program.

976
01:30:19,460 --> 01:30:22,400
But you mentioned the stream buffers.

977
01:30:22,740 --> 01:30:28,420
And I recall that the environmental group commission wants bigger buffers.

978
01:30:29,700 --> 01:30:34,080
And that's no shock because at least from environmental standpoint, ours are fairly small.

979
01:30:35,600 --> 01:30:37,620
But that's a substantial solution.

980
01:30:38,940 --> 01:30:40,420
You're going to take a 50 and a 50 and a 50.

981
01:30:40,700 --> 01:30:40,760
I'm going to bring it back.

982
01:30:41,200 --> 01:30:42,560
I'm going to bring it back.

983
01:30:42,580 --> 01:30:44,720
I'm going to bring it back.

984
01:30:45,420 --> 01:30:45,900
I'm going to bring it back.

985
01:30:47,260 --> 01:30:47,500
Right.

986
01:30:48,820 --> 01:30:52,120
This reduces the amount of developer land on a lot of parts.

987
01:30:58,090 --> 01:31:01,690
But their recommendations are to do that.

988
01:31:01,690 --> 01:31:06,670
So, at some point, when you decide whether it's our recommendation to do it.

989
01:31:06,670 --> 01:31:11,070
Okay, and that's a little easier way of saying what I was trying to say.

990
01:31:11,370 --> 01:31:17,170
So, I'd even expand my comment in the recommendations for improvements to the back policies and programs as well.

991
01:31:17,570 --> 01:31:24,210
Because you can't, at the end of the day, you can't separate that because it'll impact the heck out of the vision for the future.

992
01:31:24,210 --> 01:31:37,690
Yeah, if you put that kind of language in a comprehensive plan, then presumably you're looking for somebody to put it in an ordinance, eventually, and a plan itself doesn't do anything to anybody, but it's a blueprint for future ordinances.

993
01:31:43,920 --> 01:31:51,040
This is the dilemma that we created for ourselves. We solicited the opinions of all the answering words and bodies, and this is what we've got.

994
01:31:51,040 --> 01:31:54,460
So it will be up to Board of Supervisors to separate.

995
01:31:55,440 --> 01:31:56,960
Yeah, boy, it was a long time ago.

996
01:31:56,980 --> 01:31:58,480
I said, you'd be lucky to get anything.

997
01:31:58,820 --> 01:32:00,500
A lot more in your bargain for it.

998
01:32:00,540 --> 01:32:04,480
There's a really, really big hours to give them a part.

999
01:32:05,020 --> 01:32:07,460
Give them a document that reflects our judgment.

1000
01:32:09,180 --> 01:32:14,220
The simple fact that we solicited an opinion doesn't mean we have to accept it.

1001
01:32:14,240 --> 01:32:17,860
Whether we have to just pass it on and put that burden on the supervisors.

1002
01:32:17,860 --> 01:32:25,920
Well, we are going to prove for you that before we pass it on, but for the most part, this is a collective document.

1003
01:32:27,980 --> 01:32:32,540
I don't think we are going to enjoy true editorial right.

1004
01:32:33,940 --> 01:32:34,820
Enjoy what?

1005
01:32:35,160 --> 01:32:36,620
True editorial, what?

1006
01:32:38,600 --> 01:32:39,860
I don't have a real beard.

1007
01:32:40,400 --> 01:32:41,060
But I'd like to...

1008
01:32:41,060 --> 01:32:42,000
Can't carry a camera.

1009
01:32:42,020 --> 01:32:42,640
I can't carry a camera.

1010
01:32:43,260 --> 01:32:45,300
Like, so I made that some things.

1011
01:32:48,240 --> 01:32:51,580
We need to be better if I want to stay in the conversation.

1012
01:32:52,320 --> 01:32:58,540
I heard, by the way, I can always hear your developers seem to turn off the type of

1013
01:32:58,540 --> 01:33:00,160
someone's or before or before.

1014
01:33:00,740 --> 01:33:01,440
One's daily.

1015
01:33:01,920 --> 01:33:03,780
We're relaxing, and that's the problem.

1016
01:33:04,260 --> 01:33:06,260
We need to stay close to the microphone.

1017
01:33:09,880 --> 01:33:20,800
I know, it would be nice to get some input, not everything it wants to give us time to look at.

1018
01:33:20,940 --> 01:33:26,100
You always say come through and you have some suggestions or you have some input on it.

1019
01:33:26,460 --> 01:33:28,500
I forgot to tell you about myself now.

1020
01:33:28,500 --> 01:33:33,400
You know, I'm getting a look at it and just to get a general idea of who are the director,

1021
01:33:33,400 --> 01:33:36,940
and who are interested in for something like that.

1022
01:33:37,680 --> 01:33:40,680
I just find a thing, I know it's

1023
01:33:43,980 --> 01:33:45,220
on the web page.

1024
01:33:48,480 --> 01:33:53,420
I, I, sometimes it's better when it's in our mailbox, I think everybody is, you know,

1025
01:33:53,600 --> 01:33:58,480
time to look at this comes the most adventure about that.

1026
01:33:58,660 --> 01:33:59,360
I think it's a few videos.

1027
01:33:59,360 --> 01:34:09,280
I try to get here specifically to get some, you know, just in what's work on, and some inputs.

1028
01:34:09,820 --> 01:34:11,020
I find very helpful.

1029
01:34:12,460 --> 01:34:15,740
There's only two of us that can show up at one point.

1030
01:34:16,520 --> 01:34:23,540
They talk for everybody to make it, and some of their names on here.

1031
01:34:24,140 --> 01:34:30,620
And then somebody else comes in and usually I do, and I prefer to, I think, sometimes because I am

1032
01:34:31,160 --> 01:34:37,460
So, like you have to say, by making any sense here,

1033
01:34:40,750 --> 01:34:41,930
you are, Carol, for sure.

1034
01:34:42,450 --> 01:34:47,250
Unfortunately, things besides the planning, so we could get some input, again, our mailbox,

1035
01:34:47,510 --> 01:34:49,570
and sort of, it's really brings into attention.

1036
01:34:50,430 --> 01:34:54,210
My, at times, it's not posted, it's not posted when it comes to the media.

1037
01:34:54,350 --> 01:35:03,510
And I know you guys have a lot to look at, too, and my, but we have a lot of other things

1038
01:35:03,510 --> 01:35:06,530
and sometimes those aren't able to look at it.

1039
01:35:06,670 --> 01:35:12,870
So we can be good on your input and your expertise.

1040
01:35:14,290 --> 01:35:17,410
Well, that's kind of why at least I personally am reluctant

1041
01:35:17,410 --> 01:35:20,450
to pass too much information on because I don't know what it's going

1042
01:35:20,450 --> 01:35:21,570
to look like at the end.

1043
01:35:23,190 --> 01:35:28,290
I mean, David just literally provided these five weeks ago.

1044
01:35:29,270 --> 01:35:31,930
And we still are kind of reviewing and discussing.

1045
01:35:31,930 --> 01:35:37,410
And again, I don't know that it's going to be in our best interest to send anything back

1046
01:35:37,410 --> 01:35:38,450
to David just yet.

1047
01:35:38,570 --> 01:35:42,790
We can certainly try to edit things and continue the conversation.

1048
01:35:44,330 --> 01:35:48,750
But I don't know that I feel comfortable bringing the Board of Supervisors in for something

1049
01:35:48,750 --> 01:35:52,110
that's still this far in its infancy,

1050
01:35:59,170 --> 01:36:01,310
although if you would like a copy, we can certainly

1051
01:36:01,310 --> 01:36:04,350
Provided to you,

1052
01:36:07,640 --> 01:36:26,780
is, is, is, is, well, again, where we started with this was, as a result of the joint meeting that we had and the presentations and the discussions with Bucks County Planning Commission.

1053
01:36:26,780 --> 01:36:34,020
Lynn Bush and her associates clearly understand the intent and the flavor of our thinking.

1054
01:36:35,440 --> 01:36:41,500
And it was just recently decided that we were going to rely on David Ziff to put the entire draft together

1055
01:36:41,500 --> 01:36:46,220
at which point in time he had already been working on the first few sections.

1056
01:36:46,420 --> 01:36:53,300
Again, they're the mechanical sections dealing with the numbers and the hard counts.

1057
01:36:54,620 --> 01:37:01,380
which is what for the most part he's gotten back, and we did provide him with drafts that

1058
01:37:01,380 --> 01:37:08,440
were performed through all the boards and advisory groups here at the Township, and he

1059
01:37:08,440 --> 01:37:15,440
did doodifully include that documentation. So he's pretty much doing what we've been expecting

1060
01:37:15,440 --> 01:37:16,400
him to do.

1061
01:37:18,460 --> 01:37:24,140
And here we'll come up with the first draft of the visit statements that were in the end.

1062
01:37:24,140 --> 01:37:25,780
That's what we're currently expecting.

1063
01:37:28,200 --> 01:37:37,420
Is it his intent or should we ask that it be his intent that he at least point out total

1064
01:37:37,420 --> 01:37:42,400
disconnects between some of the elements of these preambles to those visions?

1065
01:37:43,020 --> 01:37:50,380
Well, I think what it's going to be appropriate to do maybe in the upcoming months is to have

1066
01:37:50,380 --> 01:37:57,220
another consultation with Linn and David and try to tie some of these things together a little

1067
01:37:57,220 --> 01:37:58,240
bit tighter.

1068
01:37:58,740 --> 01:38:05,200
I mean, by now he may have a couple more sections for, I don't know, or when he gets down

1069
01:38:05,200 --> 01:38:11,320
to it, since they're the professional planning organization, I would expect any organization

1070
01:38:11,320 --> 01:38:13,220
like that, or an engineering organization,

1071
01:38:16,120 --> 01:38:18,680
to point out the inconsistencies and one section

1072
01:38:18,680 --> 01:38:19,200
to another.

1073
01:38:19,560 --> 01:38:20,140
That's all.

1074
01:38:21,120 --> 01:38:27,240
There's going to be things that are in this buried in this old comprehensive plan that are not

1075
01:38:27,240 --> 01:38:29,840
implementable and are a way to weigh in what I'm going to be.

1076
01:38:30,100 --> 01:38:35,440
I think he has already done that for the most part because he did the original edit which

1077
01:38:35,440 --> 01:38:37,680
crossed out things which he didn't think were applicable.

1078
01:38:38,880 --> 01:38:44,540
I can't swear to the fact that he took out things that were duplicated or inconsistent.

1079
01:38:57,250 --> 01:38:57,730
Well,

1080
01:39:05,200 --> 01:39:12,120
we're at the same point in time where it becomes down to just deciding how to handle

1081
01:39:12,120 --> 01:39:13,480
these particular documents.

1082
01:39:13,780 --> 01:39:20,060
I mean, we can put one on the table right now and read through it, pick it apart, or we can

1083
01:39:20,060 --> 01:39:26,960
would independently and discuss it at the next meeting, at least if we can consider one two or

1084
01:39:26,960 --> 01:39:34,080
all three of them, that would are invalid and we can move forward.

1085
01:39:36,770 --> 01:39:42,250
Well, why don't we put that on the agenda for the next meeting, but what on the agenda?

1086
01:39:42,250 --> 01:39:48,910
Everybody, everybody reads them and he comments they have, but things they think he should

1087
01:39:48,910 --> 01:39:51,830
change, we could talk about it in the sun.

1088
01:39:53,810 --> 01:39:57,330
Well, okay, bearer in the spirit of what Rich is saying,

1089
01:39:57,630 --> 01:40:02,610
at least what I went through to my own internal action plan,

1090
01:40:02,630 --> 01:40:06,610
so to speak, was not just keep this as a living document

1091
01:40:06,610 --> 01:40:08,910
until we see it all.

1092
01:40:09,930 --> 01:40:11,030
And then put it together.

1093
01:40:12,610 --> 01:40:14,670
It's going to be easier for us to do it in pieces.

1094
01:40:14,670 --> 01:40:23,330
I mean, but for instance, you know, the first section, the people of Warrington, and again, that's, that's all, it's facts and figures.

1095
01:40:23,910 --> 01:40:28,830
I mean, I'm not going to spend any time disputing what he came up with, because I don't have the authority to do that.

1096
01:40:31,360 --> 01:40:37,520
So I just have to trust his editorializing for now.

1097
01:40:38,060 --> 01:40:44,680
So that one collectively, I mean, he's probably more privy to those from which we are in English.

1098
01:40:46,300 --> 01:40:54,520
But there are going to be certain elements of that information that are going to help guide us into what we can do.

1099
01:40:54,920 --> 01:41:03,480
Right? So just like we know, we all are accepted early on that this was no longer a rural community.

1100
01:41:03,740 --> 01:41:06,180
It was sperm and community and we were being overcome by technology.

1101
01:41:06,180 --> 01:41:09,880
No, let's go back to the square one. This is still a rural community.

1102
01:41:09,880 --> 01:41:11,880
I thought this last time.

1103
01:41:12,640 --> 01:41:13,700
That's not my point.

1104
01:41:13,880 --> 01:41:15,740
I'm only making it by a plate of example.

1105
01:41:16,100 --> 01:41:17,280
Is red still here?

1106
01:41:17,380 --> 01:41:19,040
Yes, he's still there.

1107
01:41:19,400 --> 01:41:20,600
Yeah, he's still vertical.

1108
01:41:22,400 --> 01:41:23,680
He's still here already.

1109
01:41:26,200 --> 01:41:27,760
Just checking for it.

1110
01:41:32,070 --> 01:41:35,090
But there are certain elements of what's happened in population and housing.

1111
01:41:35,410 --> 01:41:39,210
They're going to have four clothes on certain future items.

1112
01:41:40,870 --> 01:41:41,110
Yeah.

1113
01:41:41,350 --> 01:41:43,190
By the way, but at the sake of digressing here,

1114
01:41:43,190 --> 01:41:44,150
I mean, you know,

1115
01:41:46,420 --> 01:41:49,180
housing trends aren't dictated by planners.

1116
01:41:49,520 --> 01:41:55,900
They're dictated by people who buy houses, and they can only guess just like everybody else.

1117
01:41:56,280 --> 01:42:01,300
It comes, you know, he's got the facts and figures in front of them, and if he reaches a conclusion,

1118
01:42:01,640 --> 01:42:03,680
who are we to dispute it?

1119
01:42:07,290 --> 01:42:09,030
But that's just that particular section.

1120
01:42:09,250 --> 01:42:13,190
I mean, the others are a little bit more sensitive, and you do we note it, you know, the environmental

1121
01:42:14,890 --> 01:42:22,090
conclusions in here could be a little bit foreboding. We really do need to analyze what we wanted

1122
01:42:22,090 --> 01:42:27,270
to put in this document. In some instances, the less we say the better off we are going to

1123
01:42:31,910 --> 01:42:40,610
Again, it's a planning document. When you talk about section one that population and housing

1124
01:42:42,850 --> 01:42:43,790
statistics

1125
01:42:43,790 --> 01:42:46,230
which give you this historical numbers.

1126
01:42:47,750 --> 01:42:50,210
But the other thing you should look at is

1127
01:42:50,210 --> 01:42:53,430
what are our plans to control these numbers.

1128
01:42:54,470 --> 01:42:58,190
We look at here between 2000 and 2000.

1129
01:42:59,370 --> 01:43:01,310
You have the keys perfect.

1130
01:43:02,870 --> 01:43:08,190
The fact that the foundation of people over 60

1131
01:43:08,190 --> 01:43:14,940
has increased by a factor of significant factor,

1132
01:43:17,150 --> 01:43:22,550
94% to since 2000 is that what we want

1133
01:43:22,550 --> 01:43:31,490
to continue to do is it good for the township because they pay real estate taxes and

1134
01:43:31,490 --> 01:43:34,130
and school taxes, but they don't

1135
01:43:36,150 --> 01:43:41,230
see it so they're, and they don't, that they're in

1136
01:43:41,230 --> 01:43:44,790
council meetings, they, they, they, they, it's so, it was a certain, different

1137
01:43:44,790 --> 01:43:53,650
attention. These things have point of plan for, one of them, by the previous survey that

1138
01:43:53,650 --> 01:44:03,250
was done in the 2006 survey, which said no more age-restricted housing, that we've got to take

1139
01:44:03,250 --> 01:44:13,670
these statistics and put in a section section of how do we want to plan what we want to encourage

1140
01:44:13,670 --> 01:44:18,150
the township to do to control the population and the future.

1141
01:44:32,480 --> 01:44:38,020
Roy, would you be able to check with David and see what his expectations are for any supplemental

1142
01:44:38,020 --> 01:44:39,940
information coming back?

1143
01:44:42,900 --> 01:44:47,560
He identified a couple of things in the document that he needed on Parks and Rack.

1144
01:44:48,500 --> 01:44:51,780
That's not going to happen until the parking right place done.

1145
01:44:52,000 --> 01:44:52,760
I told you that.

1146
01:44:56,580 --> 01:44:57,800
Which is when?

1147
01:44:58,200 --> 01:44:59,800
We've been a couple of couple of months.

1148
01:45:05,080 --> 01:45:13,120
I don't wish why don't we, I for one, I'm going to try and look at these things as they come in a little bit.

1149
01:45:13,180 --> 01:45:18,160
Not exhausted, which you now can miss me not to waste that much time.

1150
01:45:18,760 --> 01:45:26,300
But I think that, and then if there are any elements that we should ask back to him, we could.

1151
01:45:26,300 --> 01:45:33,260
But there wouldn't be much point going over each one, and a meeting, until they're all there.

1152
01:45:35,940 --> 01:45:37,440
I would be very lengthy meeting.

1153
01:45:38,020 --> 01:45:39,880
I don't know how to owe it to ourselves to do it.

1154
01:45:40,420 --> 01:45:41,000
I don't know how to do it.

1155
01:45:42,800 --> 01:45:47,490
It's a question of getting back to David.

1156
01:45:47,930 --> 01:45:57,450
It doesn't necessarily serve the purpose in and of itself on the short term because he's just a clean-up guy.

1157
01:45:57,450 --> 01:46:02,770
I mean, as long as we review it and come up with a consensus, he's ultimately going to do what we tell him to.

1158
01:46:03,330 --> 01:46:04,850
He's not making the decisions.

1159
01:46:06,030 --> 01:46:08,890
He's just taking the first crack at it.

1160
01:46:17,630 --> 01:46:20,330
But now we're back at the same point we have been all along.

1161
01:46:20,890 --> 01:46:23,970
I mean, what we're looking at are PDFs.

1162
01:46:24,130 --> 01:46:26,610
I'm assuming he sent PDFs.

1163
01:46:27,570 --> 01:46:28,710
No, they were word documents.

1164
01:46:28,710 --> 01:46:29,010
Yes.

1165
01:46:30,310 --> 01:46:32,710
Would you say on Porto with PDFs?

1166
01:46:34,170 --> 01:46:35,450
Do we have to forward it?

1167
01:46:35,670 --> 01:46:35,970
All right.

1168
01:46:36,250 --> 01:46:38,490
Because, again, this comes back to the same issue.

1169
01:46:38,770 --> 01:46:43,090
I personally would not want to see seven different sets of comments coming back.

1170
01:46:43,610 --> 01:46:47,850
We're going to have to come up with our own housekeeping effort to get one working document

1171
01:46:47,850 --> 01:46:54,470
here that we are going to tweak and move forward with, and that can only happen at this

1172
01:46:54,470 --> 01:46:54,850
table.

1173
01:46:54,850 --> 01:46:55,750
That's

1174
01:47:02,380 --> 01:47:03,320
your type of skills.

1175
01:47:08,130 --> 01:47:09,790
Welcome to the debate.

1176
01:47:23,620 --> 01:47:31,940
Do we want to make a commitment to be prepared to move these three sections forward at the next meeting?

1177
01:47:34,480 --> 01:47:37,260
Everybody's free to bring their own red line copy.

1178
01:47:37,960 --> 01:47:48,760
We'll compare notes, figure out what really needs to be addressed, whether or not we send it back to David as a move point, but at least we will collectively have our ducks lined up.

1179
01:48:01,010 --> 01:48:01,770
Can you agree?

1180
01:48:20,470 --> 01:48:21,350
What else

1181
01:48:29,610 --> 01:48:32,530
do we have to talk about here, Roy?

1182
01:48:34,290 --> 01:48:44,050
not much. I give you the drafts that Terry Clevin said. I think given me. And Cindy would like to talk about the TDR.

1183
01:48:44,410 --> 01:48:50,750
Oh, I do. Yeah, you said we were going to talk about it nice and I wanted to be present for it.

1184
01:48:50,950 --> 01:48:55,510
Tom's art going is working on revising reception to TDR. We're working on that, right?

1185
01:48:55,510 --> 01:49:04,970
We had a meeting not too long ago with Dick McBride, and he has some different numbers

1186
01:49:04,970 --> 01:49:16,030
and we have with the TBRs that are going to be concerned, he'll assuming that the developer

1187
01:49:16,030 --> 01:49:19,030
ultimately prevails over the court challenges.

1188
01:49:20,610 --> 01:49:25,410
According to his numbers, the thing that Brian gave, my number is slightly different.

1189
01:49:26,490 --> 01:49:32,070
He has all the TDRs being exhausted if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if a condition is planned

1190
01:49:32,070 --> 01:49:33,390
for care and this is approved.

1191
01:49:33,790 --> 01:49:35,770
I have a difference of 15.

1192
01:49:37,650 --> 01:49:42,450
I think, I think, comes from the fact that the client property, which is a question, the

1193
01:49:42,450 --> 01:49:51,790
question center, whether it generated 100 or 115 TDRs, but what I've seen is 115, that's

1194
01:49:51,790 --> 01:49:52,550
where it differences.

1195
01:49:54,890 --> 01:50:02,450
So we might soon be out of the TDR business, so let's see what happens

1196
01:50:02,450 --> 01:50:10,070
there. The other, the other T, the other T, the importance is, you have them, it's the one

1197
01:50:11,810 --> 01:50:20,070
about the successive multi-minors subdivisions, which we need to talk about, and then the

1198
01:50:20,070 --> 01:50:26,330
other one on the big box. It's not for the C, we need to distribute it. And you have that one as

1199
01:50:26,330 --> 01:50:32,130
well. So, well, if that's what I'm thinking of, it was only an excerpt from a

1200
01:50:32,130 --> 01:50:37,390
from municipalities or not, I mean, as he's still putting something together.

1201
01:50:38,230 --> 01:50:41,210
Well, that's the basis for the comments.

1202
01:50:42,390 --> 01:50:46,410
So he did prepare something, we'll take it for the engine, basically, as well as what's going

1203
01:50:46,410 --> 01:50:52,790
to happen is the supervisors are going to introduce these ordinances, then they are going to

1204
01:50:52,790 --> 01:50:58,670
refer that to you and to the County Planning Commission for the required Planning Commission

1205
01:50:58,670 --> 01:51:07,290
use. After that, incorporating the changes are needed in the doctor's ordinances. So, he's preparing

1206
01:51:07,290 --> 01:51:12,530
an ordinance that the supervisors are going to refer to you.

1207
01:51:14,850 --> 01:51:16,990
I just had one observation on

1208
01:51:16,990 --> 01:51:22,390
that. It's talked about being a big box ordinance, but it's really kind of a medium box ordinance

1209
01:51:22,390 --> 01:51:32,770
in that the maximum square footage limit, is not all that big, and that's okay, I mean but it's just...

1210
01:51:32,770 --> 01:51:43,450
I've never came from Buckingham, which is basically basically wouldn't limit most big boxes from coming because they're usually bigger than that.

1211
01:51:43,750 --> 01:51:46,610
I'm not saying I'm opposed to that, I'm just saying it was that the phone.

1212
01:51:46,730 --> 01:51:47,930
It's that what you want, right?

1213
01:51:47,930 --> 01:51:48,810
I think you're bugging him.

1214
01:51:48,910 --> 01:51:52,010
They can say 24 square feet, but it's not.

1215
01:51:52,150 --> 01:51:52,390
That's right.

1216
01:51:53,170 --> 01:51:54,550
Sorry, Bill, what was the size

1217
01:51:54,550 --> 01:51:56,250
that you just couldn't, seven, five,

1218
01:51:56,470 --> 01:51:57,070
I just didn't get five.

1219
01:51:59,030 --> 01:52:00,550
That's, well, that's actually, that's not.

1220
01:52:01,130 --> 01:52:02,110
That's little box.

1221
01:52:02,830 --> 01:52:05,970
But the, there's a maximum size, I believe, 35,000.

1222
01:52:06,110 --> 01:52:06,990
Something like that.

1223
01:52:07,410 --> 01:52:07,470
Yeah.

1224
01:52:07,510 --> 01:52:09,450
And that's pretty small big box.

1225
01:52:10,350 --> 01:52:12,590
That's OK if that's our intent to have no big box.

1226
01:52:12,590 --> 01:52:14,890
That won't even get you a better story story.

1227
01:52:15,050 --> 01:52:16,370
But if, but if, you know,

1228
01:52:16,370 --> 01:52:26,140
But if we don't have much land left and see we need to be developed, we're talking about the last piece right now.

1229
01:52:26,960 --> 01:52:28,700
No place to put a big big box.

1230
01:52:31,500 --> 01:52:31,620
Yeah.

1231
01:52:32,100 --> 01:52:33,500
I'm going to get rid of that.

1232
01:52:33,500 --> 01:52:34,280
We don't mind, right?

1233
01:52:39,800 --> 01:52:39,960
Yeah.

1234
01:52:40,200 --> 01:52:44,680
What might happen to anything is some of the stores that are going out over the traditional side.

1235
01:52:46,180 --> 01:52:50,060
They could get, you know, randomized and become a different size store.

1236
01:52:50,240 --> 01:52:51,120
It's probably smaller.

1237
01:52:51,120 --> 01:53:00,960
What happens was borders, yeah, one from one large door, a couple smaller stores, we could see that sort of thing happening.

1238
01:53:01,720 --> 01:53:05,300
Yeah, I thought the way Terry described what he was doing is very, very well done.

1239
01:53:17,420 --> 01:53:26,000
Well, not the prolongedist meeting, but that makes the earlier presentation here, all the more important to figure out what their intended uses.

1240
01:53:26,800 --> 01:53:35,040
Because when you have a big box, and they have a supply chain that deals with that single

1241
01:53:35,040 --> 01:53:39,980
use, and then you cut it in the four pieces, and now you have that four different supply

1242
01:53:39,980 --> 01:53:45,640
chains, subsidizing the same square footage, and it was never contemplated, and all

1243
01:53:45,640 --> 01:53:47,840
that breeds this mismanagement.

1244
01:53:49,520 --> 01:53:50,160
Conquit.

1245
01:53:50,420 --> 01:53:51,000
It's

1246
01:53:55,060 --> 01:53:55,780
a really device.

1247
01:53:56,080 --> 01:53:57,380
Poorly device, plan.

1248
01:53:57,820 --> 01:53:58,360
I think

1249
01:54:01,660 --> 01:54:05,020
somebody who actually drives some street road all the time,

1250
01:54:05,080 --> 01:54:06,240
thank you.

1251
01:54:12,790 --> 01:54:14,290
Marist, there's no other comments.

1252
01:54:17,830 --> 01:54:18,670
I'm going to turn to meeting.

1253
01:54:30,920 --> 01:54:31,520
I've heard that.

1254
01:54:33,280 --> 01:54:34,460
I've heard that.

1255
01:54:34,920 --> 01:54:36,560
I've heard that.

1256
01:54:36,560 --> 01:54:36,620
I've heard that.

1257
01:54:36,620 --> 01:54:36,800
And now.

1258
01:54:37,620 --> 01:54:38,300
I've heard that.

1259
01:54:40,680 --> 01:54:41,320
Yeah.

1260
01:54:43,020 --> 01:54:43,800
I've heard that.

1261
01:54:43,800 --> 01:54:43,960
I've heard that.

1262
01:54:44,080 --> 01:54:44,440
I've heard that.

1263
01:54:45,140 --> 01:54:45,660
I've heard that.

1264
01:54:45,660 --> 01:54:47,060
still there.

1265
01:54:48,640 --> 01:54:51,220
You're going to made us at the diner or what?

1266
01:54:52,280 --> 01:54:54,700
You're going to made us at the diner or what?

1267
01:54:56,020 --> 01:54:57,620
This looks like a BMW A.

1268
01:54:57,740 --> 01:54:58,520
I'm only kidding.

1269
01:54:58,680 --> 01:54:59,240
I'm only kidding.

1270
01:54:59,320 --> 01:55:00,400
I love a drive, right?

1271
01:55:02,740 --> 01:55:04,100
Just give us your credit going, Nubba.

1272
01:55:05,420 --> 01:55:06,660
So take your of it.

1273
01:55:06,820 --> 01:55:08,960
Some of this is a bit too good.

1274
01:55:09,660 --> 01:55:10,200
Thank you.

1275
01:55:10,720 --> 01:55:11,420
Very dangerous.

1276
01:55:22,500 --> 01:55:24,280
Yeah, fine, this can't sell.