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I'd like to bring this special meeting
to order. So, if you do the roll call.

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» Jonathan Ramsey
>> here.

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» Marian Rosa
>> here.

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» Dan Coola.
Tom Dattis

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» here.
>> Kendir.

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Robert Dina
>> here. Reina

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» here.
>> Robert Retallik

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» here.
>> Rachel Ryan

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» here.
>> Thank you. And Dan should be showing up

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soon and Ken might be late.
Um, as you guys are aware, we're here to

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interview a couple law firms tonight
related to the role as the town attorney

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for Watertown. Um, previously you guys
received some topics and kind of a

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summary of questions that we plan on
asking each of the law firms that we're

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interviewing today. Um, as we ask a
question, obviously they'll answer and

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any follow-up questions we could ask um
along with it when we go through that

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list. Um, we do have roughly an hour
allocated for each um, firm. So, just

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kind of keep that in mind when we're uh,
discussing and asking questions. So

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first we'll start with Bosian and Ryan

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first the state
if you wanted to start by introducing

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yourselves a little background and then
we kind of go from there.

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» All right u Mr. Chairman, members of the
council, and staff, uh my name is

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Franklin Pilly,
235 Main Street, Watertown, Connecticut.

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And uh thank you for allowing this uh
presentation to supplement the original

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information provided with the
application.

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Uh I'd like to comment uh briefly on
some of the matters that are contained

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uh in a town me man manager memo that I
that I saw and uh I'll I'll start there

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and then I'd like to provide some
indicators of how I would approach any

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future position as town attorney based
on how I approached

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the job In the past years that I served,
I served uh six two-year terms as town

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attorney non-consecutive.
And there was an additional period of

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time where I served for about another
two years because uh at that time the

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town didn't have insurance except for
liability insurance and there were

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significant number of other uh lawsuits
mostly relatively minor in nature that

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were handled by the town attorneys at
the time. and there were probably 12 of

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those or something still left over when
my term was up. So, I was replaced uh

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but I was asked to continue to finish
out with all the cases that were

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presently pending which I did that. So,
it's approximately about 14 years uh

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where I have uh served in the past. Uh
personally, I've been an attorney uh in

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Watertown, Connecticut for about 53
years. uh and the first two years of

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which I served as a legal officer for
the police department in Watertown and

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police departments in Mbury,
Nagatuck and Thomas as well as

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Watertown. Uh, one of the first things I
noted in the memo from the town manager

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that a court record search uh, disclosed
a couple of lawsuits against uh, my

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firm. Uh, the first is Costello.
Costello was a case uh that was a that

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was brought against a condominium
association that we represented. uh and

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he also sued the bank that was
foreclosing his mortgage. So there was

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two cases against him. He turned around
and filed about four cases against uh

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against the bank, against the
association, against our office. Uh and

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that went on for uh quite some time. He
had cases pending in both state court in

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Connecticut, appellet court in
Connecticut, federal court in

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Connecticut, and the second circuit uh
of the federal court. All of those cases

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were lost. Uh he did not prevail on
anything. There was a case called Watts

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versus Charter Oak. It's correct in that
case. Uh my name was mentioned in the

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lawsuit. uh but I had nothing to do with
the lawsuit. Uh but nevertheless, the

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case was dismissed. Uh he was
complaining about the procedure that was

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used by the
association's management in calculating

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his common charges. Uh and he brought a
lawsuit against the association and my

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office and the case was dismissed.
There was a another case that's not

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mentioned, so I won't talk too much
about it other than to say that it was

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withdrawn and there was no payments to
anybody. There was a case recently filed

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by the name of Westage. That case I have
no knowledge of it. I don't know any of

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the parties to it, but my partner was
involved in it and all of the claims in

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that case will be denied and it's not
likely that anything will come of it.

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the uh
to follow up on litigations. Uh there's

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never been a claim against myself or my
office where any claimant was ever paid

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a dime.
There's never been a successful claim uh

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against my office.
As far as grievances, that's mentioned,

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but not necessarily uh reported on. But
grievances typically will not be shown

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uh if they're dismissed. I've had in 53
years, I think four or five, I've never

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had one that wasn't dismissed at a very
early stage. And I've never had one

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filed by an actual client. They were
always filed as the other lawsuits.

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They're always filed by non-clients that
don't like some uh procedure or some

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issue or they're disgruntled because
they lost a case that was handled by my

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my office where that client uh won.
There's one grievance pending now was

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just filed. Uh it in my view has no
merit. It's likely again to be

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dismissed. There was mention of
insurance. Uh we have adequate

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insurance. Insurance certificates are
available uh on request. Uh fire

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district. I was asked to comment on my
relationship with the fire district.

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Uh hard to believe sometimes but for
many decades the town and the fire

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district got along very well and
occasionally discussed common interests

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in doing things together. However, as we
know, uh that's not always the case. Uh

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but I have resolved a number of cases uh
between the town and the fire district

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favorably to the town. The town never
lost a case to the fire district when I

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was involved. Uh now
one of the other indicators of how I

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would approach being town attorney in
the future is based upon things that I

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did handle and I think some of the more
significant things that I handled in the

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past. Some of most of these are recent
past because I have not served as town

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attorney for approximately 16 or more
years. Uh but when it comes to

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litigation matters in every matter that
I ever handled for the town of

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Watertown, I never lost a trial.
Watertown never lost any case that I

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handled.

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The
other thing uh I was asked to talk about

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and part of that's what I'm saying now
is how I would economize and provide

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services on a more costly basis for the
town.

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First is I have never charged the town
for any telephone call or verbal opinion

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that I can give by telephone only. I
never charged for any of those ever. Um

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there were situations that I was
involved in where the town needed

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condemnations of significant pieces of
property in order to conduct important

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drainage projects. In two of those
situations,

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I condemned the property for $1. I put a
value of $1 on it, which is unheard of

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really. Uh, and I convinced both
property owners not to file an appeal on

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the argument that when the project was
done, their property would be more

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valuable than before the project was
done. And in both cases, uh, they were

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they accepted that. One of them was a
major drainage project that came down uh

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off of Main Street up near where Agnu's
uh Florest used to be located uh and

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came down and then crossed over to Depot
Street and so forth. So we obtained

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those property easement interests for no
consideration.

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There was another case where the town
needed a condemnation done very quickly

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because uh the French street bridge over
Steelsbrook um was compromised and and

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couldn't be used or shouldn't be used.
And we had that condemnation done uh in

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one week it was done. They sent this big
representative from DC who was going to

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beat us up and that lasted about an hour
and a half in superior court uh and the

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uh easement was obtained in in record
time so that they could begin the

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process of addressing the bridge
condition.

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Uh now there were I I think I already
mentioned I have to go back to that. Uh

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almost several cases between the town
and the fire district uh were all won by

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the town uh when I was involved.
There was a time that the town and fire

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district were talking jointly for a
while about building a joint water tower

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up on the sea property in back of Neil
Drive. The idea being, or at least my

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idea was uh to build a water tower
instead of the fire district rebuilding

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the water pump station on Neil Drive.
The goal was that the town and the fire

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district would jointly own the tower.
The tower would connect with the water

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town tower uh the on Buckingham Street
and there would be an opportunity to uh

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cross uh hatch so to speak and have
backup systems that could apply limited

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water to each party in the event of an
emergency.

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uh that property was part of the open
space that went with the SE subdivision

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and the fire district agreed in the
beginning to pursue that and then

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changed course uh and did not they
abandoned that idea and they went ahead

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and rebuilt the uh pump station uh at
that time.

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What happened is there to this day is a
lot of land that's available uh that is

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owned jointly by the town of Watertown
and the fire district up off of uh Neil

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Drive which was a former Seir property.
There was one example where I provided a

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legal opinion uh verbally that would
have ended a matter and it was like two

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days before my term was up and I
provided a verbal legal opinion to the

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zoning office off officer about how to
handle uh an issue on a an unusual vote

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that occurred at a meeting and uh would
have been resolved in one night at the

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next meeting. But the next town attorney
gave a different opinion uh and it ended

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up with uh the applicant filing a
uh lawsuit against the town. It ended up

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with the applicant filing a new
application and after significant

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litigation cost to the town, it ended up
the exact same way I recommended with a

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phone call. So that's another example of
where I try to save money in litigation

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costs at all at all times. One other
case I'll just mention again it's it's

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the fire district suing the town of
Watertown and the issue was over an

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ordinance that the town passed that set
out a procedure to assess special

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benefit assessments and general benefit
assessments on a on future water and

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sewer projects. The ordinance was really
nothing more than a cotification or a

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recottification of what Connecticut law
required to do when funding water and

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sewer projects. The fire district filed
a lawsuit against the town to try to

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seek uh avoiding
the ordinance on grounds that fire

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district residents as general taxpayers
should never be called upon to

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contribute anything to a water and sewer
project.

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At the time the suit was filed, a court
date was scheduled for hearing. And I

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called up the other attorney and I said,
"Uh, we're not going to court." I said,

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"If you want to win the case, you can
win the case." Uh, it was far more

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in the interest of Watertown. We simply
repeal the ordinance rather than go

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through all that litigation because it
didn't change anything. the procedure

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that was put in the ordinance was the
exact same uh procedure that you had to

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follow follow anyway uh
when you're funding those types of

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projects. So that uh saved the town of
Watertown significant litigation costs

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and still the town didn't give up
anything. Uh there were issues a couple

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of times with our Tillery Hill
Condominium. That property was not

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getting developed for a number of years
because the fire district had the

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ability to provide water service but did
not have the ability to provide sewer

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service. So the fire district agreed to
provide water but only if they also

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provided the sewer service. The town had
a sewer main that literally goes right

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through a portion of the artillery
property, but the town refused to allow

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the sewer project to be used for
artillery hill unless they also became a

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water customer. So that stalemate
existed for a number of years. When I

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became town attorney and got involved,
that issue was settled uh by the fire

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district providing the water, the town
of Watertown providing the sewer, but

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each unit had to pay a significant
contribution in assessments to the town

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uh water system. So the town was able to
break the stalemate, continue with the

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project, but have a substantial uh
benefit um income from from Artillery

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Hill. There was another similar
situation with Mount Fair Farm. When

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Mount Farm was first proposed for
development,

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Mountain Farm could not obtain sewer
from the town of Watertown. They could

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obtain water. So Mount Fair Farm
developer went to the fire district and

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requested to be annexed into the fire
district in which case the fire district

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annexation would have included uh other
properties that weren't that were in

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between but were not yet part of the
fire district. So I worked with the

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superintendent of water and sewer at the
time and we were successful in obtaining

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an easement from a property owner where
the the sewer easement to provide

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gravity sewer was brought down uh to
Echol Lake Road at Ice House Road and

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that ended any thought of the fire
district expanding uh and taking over

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that part of that part of town.
Um

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there

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there was another case that many will
remember and I I think of this as kind

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of one of our better achievements in
town where a high school uh teacher uh

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was accused um of in in improper conduct
with students.

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The afternoon that that that the student
came forward, I was assigned by the

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superintendent of schools and the
assistant superintendent to take over

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that matter and make sure it got
investigated properly. I worked with the

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police department and
the

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superintendent, the school schools and
the school board and we took appropriate

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action. And while we were in the midst
of that, the insurance adjuster for the

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town came to Watertown and asked how we
were handling everything and it was all

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00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:09,360
explained to him. He said, "You're doing
all the right things. Uh, keep it up."

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Well, the case was concluded. The
teacher was suspended that day and

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00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:24,240
terminated. And then about uh about two
to three months later that uh insurance

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00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:28,799
adjuster showed up in my office and he
said he came to Watertown to

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00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:34,960
congratulate Watertown. He said in his
entire career, he has never had a case

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00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:39,360
like that where
the town didn't get sued. He said he'd

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never had a case like that in his entire
career where

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the individuals involved didn't get sued
and he said that he talked to those

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people and they claimed that the way
Watertown handled the case was so

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perfect in his view uh that there was
never a claim made against the town or

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any uh settlements.
Now there were two other situations

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where uh a lot of good could have been
done for the town but it didn't happen.

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Uh I was authorized by a local bank at
one time to donate property to the town

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of Watertown and it was a significant
property. The bank had just foreclosed

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the property and I was friendly with a
higher up in the bank and he authorized

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me to approach the town and offer that
property to the town. They were seeking

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no monetary compensation. They only
asked for some long-term recognition of

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their name being on a plaque or
something to recognize the donation.

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That offer was conveyed to the town
through me. I never got an answer. Two

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00:19:46,559 --> 00:19:53,200
weeks later, I call again, didn't get an
answer. 3 weeks later, I call again,

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never got an answer. And then after four
weeks or six or eight weeks at that

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point, uh they withdrew the offer. Uh
there was another uh situation where

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where Woodgate subdivision exists today.
That property was offered by a different

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bank uh to myself to present to the town
for $250,000.

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And town uh didn't respond in a timely
manner. And about five weeks later, the

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bank signed a contract to sell the
property to somebody else. And somebody

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else developed that property. Um
the other thing that I'd like to comment

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on that I think is pretty important. Uh
when I was town attorney um I provided a

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written list of every legal matter in my
office uh approximately four to five

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times a year to the town council and
town staff. Um,

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in a prior situation with Waterberry, we
were in a water dispute for about six or

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seven years and every two months I wrote
a written report restating the entire

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case, the status of the case and that
was delivered to uh the council and the

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water and sewer authority. So, I've
always believed in

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keeping everybody informed of everything
that I was doing. And uh there's one

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other thing I probably didn't mention,
but twice the town got sued uh over

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contiguous property to the landfill on
Old Bed Road.

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in both cases. Uh the first one was the
easiest one and it's a corner at the

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corner of Artillery
uh and Hamilton and they claimed that

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the town polluted their property. So
instead of spending a lot of money

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investigating the property or the
environmental condition of the property,

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uh uh the town offered them uh about
$10,000 to break off half of their

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property and convey it to the town
rather than argue about it. That was

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done.
Not too many years later, the owner of a

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00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:19,360
13 acre piece on the other side that's
contiguous to the town landfill site um

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sent the town a proposed lawsuit and
actually filed in court with a demand

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00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:31,520
for $450,000 for the property. Um town
responded that that was uh out out of

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00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:36,799
bounds really. It was not even worth
considering. Uh couple years later when

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00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:40,480
I was town attorney again, I got we got
the same letter. The town gave him the

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00:22:38,799 --> 00:22:46,240
same response.
About a few years later, probably six

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00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:53,039
years from when it started, uh they
again filed a proposed lawsuit for us to

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00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:58,799
review. Um and
we offered him $75,000 for the property,

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00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:05,760
which he accepted. So to this day, the
town owns 13 plus more acres. addition

250
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:12,000
to the landfill. Uh, and these are the
types of things that I got involved with

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00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:16,640
that I thought were excellent outcomes
for the town of Watertown. And I think

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there there's no better indicator of how
I would act as town attorney in the

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future. So, um, I would ask you to
consider those matters as well. And, uh,

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00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:32,960
Kerasuma is here and she is part of the
the team that would serve as town

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00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:38,240
attorney. Um, I don't know if Cara wants
to say anything or certainly she'll is

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00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:42,559
prepared
as I am to answer questions.

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00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:46,159
» Um, good evening. I will not say
anything at this time. I'm sure the

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00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:50,240
council has some questions. Um, attorney
Pelisy obviously has extensive um,

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00:23:48,559 --> 00:23:54,799
institutional if not encyclopedic
knowledge of Watertown history. So, um,

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00:23:53,039 --> 00:23:58,400
I can't compete with that on that end,
but um, we're happy to answer your

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00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:02,640
questions and thank you for your time
and meeting with us this evening. Yeah,

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00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:06,320
thank you for a lot of the the historic
cases that you've dealt with in town and

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00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:09,919
how you have helped out the town. We
will uh continue with our questions that

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00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:18,720
we have here.
>> Um we have eight questions that we want

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00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:24,000
to ask each firm. Um we only have a half
hour left for you. So hopefully you've

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00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:29,840
answered uh some of them already, but
certainly uh we'll go forward. The first

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00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:36,640
question um describe your experience
across the range of legal matters as a

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00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:44,240
municipality like Watertown and uh
relative to land use zoning contracts

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00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:48,960
litigation etc. Um
and tell us definitely who would be

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handling Watertown's
actions.

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» I would be the lead attorney. I would
handle uh almost all of it. Uh but I

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00:24:57,360 --> 00:25:04,400
would also delegate and then supervise
whatever I delegate. Uh if it's car or

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00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:09,039
if somebody else in the office was get
involved. Me personally, my experience

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00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:15,919
is I've been handling municipal law
since uh November 1st, 1973. I worked as

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00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:22,960
I said as a legal legal office of police
department. In 1975, I joined a firm

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00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:27,360
that is the predecessor of my present
firm and at that time they were town

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00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:34,240
attorneys in Wilkit. So I assisted with
the town attorney business in Wilkit.

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00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:38,799
Later uh that firm established a
Middbury office and one of my partners

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00:25:36,799 --> 00:25:44,640
was a Mbury town attorney. So from time
to time I assisted in that. As far as

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00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:49,039
land use is concerned, I've handled uh
numerous land use cases in both

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00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:56,080
Watertown and contiguous towns and
sometimes in towns not so contiguous. Uh

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00:25:52,480 --> 00:26:02,559
I think I've been pretty successful with
most of those cases. I've handled I

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00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:10,000
can't give you a count of how many cases
in the appellet court, but it's could be

284
00:26:05,679 --> 00:26:17,919
15 or more. Uh I've handled six cases uh
that went to the state supreme court and

285
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:25,440
uh although not perfect I am foreign to
one a couple of those were water town

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00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:30,799
cases. So u so that's my background as
far as municipal law goes. I think in

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00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:35,919
the application I also mentioned I I
still do some municipal law for uh

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00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:42,000
special occasions for other towns.
>> Right. The next question is, what

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00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:46,080
response time standards would you commit
for the town and how would the town

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00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:52,400
manager, the council, and other
officials reach timely advice when the

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00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:58,240
primary attorney being you, is not
available? Uh would there be a deputy

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00:26:55,679 --> 00:27:02,400
person attending council meetings or
executive sessions or how would that be

293
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:08,000
coordinated?
Well, uh,

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00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:16,000
some of you may know or may not know
that I rarely take a day off. I have

295
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:19,919
never had a oneweek vacation and all the
time I've been an attorney. Uh, I think

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00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:25,440
I did it once when my children were
little to go to Disneyland.

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00:27:22,799 --> 00:27:32,960
But I am the easiest person in the world
to reach. I live a block from here or

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00:27:29,039 --> 00:27:38,960
two. Uh, and I can always be reached by
anybody in my office. I think anything

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00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:45,039
that comes up, if it's urgent, it could
be a same day response. If it's not

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00:27:42,159 --> 00:27:50,240
urgent, there'll be a a very timely
response. I was always timely with

301
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:55,039
anything I was assigned to do for the
town of Watertown in the past. That was

302
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:59,120
never an issue. And most of the time if
I delivered something to town, I would

303
00:27:57,120 --> 00:28:02,480
bring it in person, which I always did
because I was right across the street

304
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:09,279
for many of the years that I was town
attorney. I my prior office for 29 years

305
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:13,360
was at 365 Main Street, almost directly
across the street from the town hall

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00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:17,760
annex.
>> Um, does anyone have any follow-up

307
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:21,000
questions to anything that's been asked
so far?

308
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:30,080
the chair. Attorney Pelosi, you had
mentioned that you were four and two and

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00:28:27,279 --> 00:28:34,399
um two some of them were through the
Watertown cases. Were they wins or

310
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,559
losses at the Supreme Court?
>> The Watertown case.

311
00:28:35,679 --> 00:28:44,399
» Yes.
>> Uh

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00:28:38,799 --> 00:28:51,440
I think two were two or one. Um
I'm not sure exactly how many of those

313
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:56,399
Watertown probably three uh or so but I
had many more cases in the appellet

314
00:28:53,840 --> 00:29:02,960
court and the appellet court probably
about 60%

315
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:07,679
or so uh with prevailing I prevailed on
a good number of land use cases in the

316
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:15,679
appellet court uh land use cases don't
often get to the Supreme Court uh but I

317
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:20,480
In my career,
four times I wrote a legal opinion that

318
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:26,159
did did end up in the Supreme Court and
all four were upheld. And that's another

319
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:32,880
kind of statistic I've always been proud
of. And one of those I wasn't the

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00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:38,720
lawyer, but I was um I was part of uh
providing a legal opinion on that

321
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:44,960
matter. Uh and that legal opinion was
first um up uh changed by a superior

322
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:52,200
court judge and the Supreme Court
reinstated the legal opinion which is

323
00:29:48,159 --> 00:29:52,200
the advice that the town followed.

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00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,279
» Anybody else?

325
00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:04,000
» The next question, how do you view the
town attorney's role in preventing legal

326
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:11,120
problems rather than reacting to them?
Well, I think I've explained some of

327
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:18,320
those uh as an the example I gave about
the lawsuit that could have ended in uh

328
00:30:14,559 --> 00:30:23,039
some serious long-term costly litigation
by just having the water and sewer

329
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:27,600
authority uh repeal the ordinance and
reaffirm that they would follow the

330
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:35,600
state statutes. There's been other cases
where uh I know very early on that

331
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:41,279
Watertown is not likely to prevail. In
those cases, I bring that opinion to

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00:30:39,039 --> 00:30:45,520
whoever's involved in it, whether it's
the planning and zoning commission, the

333
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:51,039
town council, or the town manager if
it's administrative in nature. Uh and

334
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:57,039
many times we've headed off cases that
are losers uh before they so to speak

335
00:30:54,399 --> 00:31:01,080
get legs. We try to end them before they
become bigger problems.

336
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:10,159
» Yeah. Um, how about kind of
a lot of your examples were something

337
00:31:08,559 --> 00:31:14,240
that could have been a bigger issue that
kind of got resolved in an easier

338
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:19,600
manner, but can you give any examples
where you truly like proactively suggest

339
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:24,080
a change if it's changing regulations,
policies, whatever it might be to

340
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:27,520
prevent something that you know might
happen in the future.

341
00:31:25,279 --> 00:31:34,159
» Well, that's kind of two questions. one
is how to head off things before they

342
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:38,880
get bigger problems and the other is uh
getting involved in rewriting uh

343
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:44,159
regulations and so forth. I've been
through a couple of town charter

344
00:31:41,039 --> 00:31:49,039
revisions. The most recent I was council
to the charter revision commission. In

345
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:56,720
the past, uh I was a town attorney
during charter revision amendments and I

346
00:31:51,600 --> 00:32:01,279
was involved in those. uh if I see uh a
regulation or something that I think is

347
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:06,640
improper, I would try to let everyone
know before it even gets adopted.

348
00:32:04,159 --> 00:32:11,840
Sometimes that means scrap the idea all
together. Sometimes it means it can be

349
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:15,480
salvaged with but you have to massage it
or revise it.

350
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:23,600
Next question is uh as you know
Watertown operates a water and sewer

351
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:29,519
authority and periodically faces complex
contractual regulatory financing and

352
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:35,360
intermunicipal issues.
Describe your experience with municipal

353
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:42,000
water sewer matters and how you would
handle anything in the future.

354
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:52,399
Well, I have extensive experience with
water and sewer matters. Um, I have uh

355
00:32:48,000 --> 00:33:00,960
successfully negotiated a $2.3 million
case uh about 20 years ago. Uh if you

356
00:32:58,559 --> 00:33:05,519
called the city of Waterbury and asked
how much Watertown owed for water, they

357
00:33:03,519 --> 00:33:10,159
would tell you Watertown has the highest
outstanding bill and they owe about

358
00:33:07,519 --> 00:33:16,080
$2,250,000.
If we asked Frank Nardelli, he would say

359
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:21,440
that Watertown has overpaid by $300,000
based on his calculation. And the reason

360
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:25,600
for that was that Waterberry had a a
contract with a charter accounts of how

361
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:30,799
to determine and compute the water bill,
but they never followed it. And by not

362
00:33:28,399 --> 00:33:39,519
following it, it began to cost the town
a lot of money. So in a meeting with uh

363
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:46,559
Frank Nardelli and Jim Ftoer, his advice
earlier on, uh the town paid 75% of the

364
00:33:44,159 --> 00:33:49,279
bill and ignored the interest. And that
may sound a little familiar now, but

365
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:56,240
that was a completely different
situation. and the town did take my

366
00:33:53,279 --> 00:34:04,720
advice and did increase the rates so the
money was available uh in case water

367
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:11,119
ever lost that debate. Uh the contract
provided for a mediation uh if either

368
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:16,399
party requested mediation. I requested
mediation about every six months. uh and

369
00:34:14,079 --> 00:34:22,159
Waterberry never agreed because they
felt their case was weak and nobody

370
00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:25,520
wanted to give up that money that was on
the books because they would have to

371
00:34:23,599 --> 00:34:32,399
admit that they were wrong to the point
of over $2 million. Uh after about four

372
00:34:29,599 --> 00:34:36,320
years of that back and forth, uh a new
town attorney in Waterbury came along

373
00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:40,639
and he called me up and asked if
Watertown wanted to settle the case. I

374
00:34:38,399 --> 00:34:47,119
said, 'Well, I will recommend settlement
provided it's agreed that Watertown

375
00:34:42,879 --> 00:34:53,119
doesn't owe a dime and we will agree
that Waterbury doesn't have to pay the

376
00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:59,599
$300,000 that Frank Nadelli calculated.
That was agreed. We agreed with that. Uh

377
00:34:56,879 --> 00:35:05,040
and we settled the case. Watertown
didn't pay a dime. And we also agreed to

378
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:08,880
a new chart of accounts how to bill
going forward. And that amended chart of

379
00:35:07,359 --> 00:35:15,440
accounts was in the settlement agreement
and that would continue to be following

380
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:21,200
followed until uh 2013 when Waterbury
terminated that contract. I negotiated

381
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:26,720
on behalf of Watertown
uh with respect to uh Watertown's

382
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:34,640
contribution to the water filtration
plant. That water filtration plant uh

383
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:41,119
was designed for about uh 32
33 million gallons a day. Watertown

384
00:35:38,079 --> 00:35:48,400
reserved uh up to 3 million gallons a
day. So Watertown had to pay something

385
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:54,240
about like 8.75% of those capital costs
uh in order to reserve future capacity

386
00:35:51,440 --> 00:36:00,240
which Watertown did pay. But then
Waterberry immediately started abusing

387
00:35:56,720 --> 00:36:04,720
all that. Uh and that was part of why we
believed uh Watertown overpaid because

388
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:08,079
they misused other money that could have
been used to reduce the outstanding

389
00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:13,200
bond. Watertown continued to pay its
portion of the bond for the entire bond

390
00:36:10,079 --> 00:36:18,160
term. But Waterberry had other money
available to reduce the bond and they

391
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:23,520
didn't use it for that purpose. For
example, they filed a lawsuit against

392
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:28,480
the contractor for improper construction
and won $8 million. That should have

393
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:32,079
gone in to pay the bonds off early, but
the mayor put it in the general fund.

394
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:36,800
And that was just one of the big issues
that we had with Waterberry over water

395
00:36:34,079 --> 00:36:44,400
billing. Uh but again, we prevailed in
that case. I negotiated on behalf of

396
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:52,960
Watertown when Waterbury uh amended or
rebuilt its sewer treatment plant and

397
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:58,480
Watertown uh reserved uh enough capacity
uh knowing that DP was about to lower

398
00:36:55,839 --> 00:37:05,440
the hammer and refused to allow the fire
district to keep its own sewer treatment

399
00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:12,160
plant in place. So, we negotiated uh a
surplus, but only enough to accept water

400
00:37:09,119 --> 00:37:16,960
uh fire district sewage if necessary.
And as it turned out, it became

401
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:23,760
necessary because about a year later, uh
D ordered them to shut down their sewer

402
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:32,240
plant. And uh since then, they they pay
approximately

403
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:37,040
35% or so of the sewer treatment costs.
that go to that plant. They also paid

404
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:41,520
the same percentage of the capital cost.
There was a separate separate contract

405
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:48,960
with Waterberry just to pay the capital
cost. Waterberry spent uh $81 million uh

406
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:56,400
at that time to upgrade the sewer plant
and Watertown was in for roughly 10% of

407
00:37:52,320 --> 00:38:01,280
that shared between the town about 62%
and the fire district for the balance.

408
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:05,920
and the fire district contributed its
share. Watertown contributed its share

409
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:11,760
and those bond payments were made
directly to the state uh the state

410
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:19,359
because the money was loan by D at 2%
interest. So uh it was interesting

411
00:38:16,079 --> 00:38:26,160
because um nobody was comfortable that
the people in Waterbury knew how to run

412
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:32,800
the sewer plant. So I asked D uh is the
sewer plant being run cap

413
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:38,560
properly and I was told the sewer plant
is capable of being operated

414
00:38:35,839 --> 00:38:43,359
in accordance with its design but
everybody knew that the people that were

415
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:48,880
on site didn't know what they were doing
and ultimately that led to Waterberry

416
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:54,160
privatizing the operation of the sewer
plant but I've had extensive

417
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:57,520
negotiations with Waterberry over
Watertown contracts

418
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,320
Thank you
>> to the chair.

419
00:38:59,839 --> 00:39:05,280
» Yes.
>> Thank you, Attorney Pici. Thank you for

420
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:09,119
being here. Um, so sitting on the
bipartisan water and sword committee

421
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:16,320
with my late colleague Michelle McHugh,
your report um on the uh uh water issue

422
00:39:13,839 --> 00:39:21,119
with Waterberry really helped guide our
thought process and uh grateful for

423
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:27,119
that. Um and and one of the things that
we pulled out of the report um was some

424
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:33,359
advice that you gave uh uh in the report
of WSA uh raising the rates and putting

425
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:39,599
aside
money um and then in case Watertown lost

426
00:39:38,079 --> 00:39:42,960
the case to Waterberry.
>> Correct.

427
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:49,280
» Great. And so um Watertown didn't do
that. Um and so during the the committee

428
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:53,839
meetings, we asked the the town attorney
at the time um if he had given that

429
00:39:51,839 --> 00:39:58,960
advice or what advice he had given and
and he reported that he gave the same

430
00:39:55,839 --> 00:40:05,680
advice to town leadership um in that
2019 or so window. Um

431
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:10,720
when we asked for record of that advice,
if it was in an email or in a memo, um

432
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:14,560
he didn't have any available. And so my
question to both of you is and and I

433
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:20,720
think you answered this a little bit
when you talked about written list to

434
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:27,200
the TC every two months. Um but
during advice to town leadership, will

435
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:34,480
you have a record that the council can
review to ensure 10 years later, 5 years

436
00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:38,079
later that we know what was talked
about? I'm not talking about executive

437
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:40,800
session. I'm talking about just the
advice that you give us in terms of what

438
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:46,560
to do.
>> Well, unless it's a quick phone call, if

439
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:52,800
I'm asked anything that requires it to
be put in writing, uh I always put it in

440
00:40:49,520 --> 00:41:02,800
writing. Now, there's one other since
you mentioned uh uh the uh Freedom of

441
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:09,760
Information Act. Um, I have always been
a great supporter of that act and I have

442
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:14,960
always advised councils and other boards
and commissions when I was town attorney

443
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:19,440
that even if a matter qualifies for
executive session, that doesn't mean you

444
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:25,680
have to go into executive session. It
means you have the discretion to discuss

445
00:41:21,119 --> 00:41:31,119
it in public. And I have always stated
that. Uh, I still tell clients that

446
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:37,680
today. For example, I've told the
housing authority that on a number of

447
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:42,079
occasions. Uh just because it qualifies
as a potential executive session matter

448
00:41:40,319 --> 00:41:49,599
doesn't mean it has to be discussed in
executive session. To me, executive

449
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:56,480
session should be uh sparingly used only
for the most sensitive ongoing matters.

450
00:41:53,920 --> 00:42:02,240
And once that sensitive ongoing matter
is concluded uh and sometimes you can

451
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:05,599
withhold records as well. Now executive
session you typically don't take minutes

452
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:12,720
so there's nothing to show after the
fact but the documentation should be

453
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:17,760
available to the public after the fact.
>> Thank you.

454
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:23,119
» Because your firm represents other
municipalities and public entities. How

455
00:42:20,319 --> 00:42:28,240
will you identify and and manage
potential conflicts involving Watertown?

456
00:42:25,839 --> 00:42:32,079
If a conflict prevented you, your firm
from handling a significant matter, how

457
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:38,800
would you help the town maintain
continuity of representation?

458
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:44,880
» I would disclose the conflict the minute
it is

459
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:49,440
presented as even a potential conflict.
And if necessary,

460
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:53,520
uh, I can often make the recommendation
of somebody that would be competent to

461
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:57,520
handle that. But in all the years that
I've been town attorney and all the

462
00:42:55,520 --> 00:43:00,720
years others been have been town
attorney, there's always going to be

463
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:09,920
some conflicts that are going to come
up, especially uh, in a town the size of

464
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:15,440
Watertown. And uh I I had situations
come up uh from time to time when I did

465
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:20,720
serve as town attorney and they were
immediately disclosed to the town

466
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:26,079
manager. Uh and then if I was asked to
obtain somebody to that was competent to

467
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:29,400
handle that matter, then I would provide
that referral.

468
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:36,720
» A follow up on that. Um, I know you do a
lot of land use and representing a lot

469
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:41,520
of people for planning and zoning. Would
you have to kind of take a step back

470
00:43:38,319 --> 00:43:45,280
from those clients if you were town
attorney?

471
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:52,640
» If I were town attorney, I would
probably stop handling all

472
00:43:49,119 --> 00:43:57,280
private non-watertown land use matters.
I have a few going on now uh in other

473
00:43:55,599 --> 00:44:04,560
towns. I think I have one in Watertown
that may end tonight. Uh, praise be to

474
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:12,240
God. Uh, and, uh, I would probably not
take any future land use matters in any

475
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:17,920
other town. Uh, I mean, I might if it
was a long-term client that needed

476
00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:20,480
something. Uh, but I wouldn't take any
that would be ongoing for any period of

477
00:44:19,839 --> 00:44:23,640
time.
>> Thank you.

478
00:44:23,839 --> 00:44:30,960
Beyond your hourly rates and fee
structure, what practices would you use

479
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:35,599
to control the town's legal expenses?
How would you flag a matter that's

480
00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:40,960
becoming more costly than anticipated?
And what billing detail and periodic

481
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:45,920
reporting would the town receive?
>> Town would receive an itemized statement

482
00:44:43,359 --> 00:44:53,520
on a monthly basis.
And uh if any matter came in that was in

483
00:44:51,119 --> 00:45:00,079
my view non-mrine,
I would immediately

484
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:06,720
disclose that to the town manager and I
would suggest uh we consider other ways

485
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:13,359
to resolve the problem without um
ongoing litigation.

486
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:18,560
Uh these days there's actually more
opportunities to resolve matters without

487
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:24,720
costly litigation because it's become
fairly common uh to mediate matters. And

488
00:45:22,240 --> 00:45:31,839
there are probably in the last five or
six years there's a a growing list of

489
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:36,480
competent ex-judges that have found a
second career in mediation. And I've

490
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:41,319
been involved in some of those
mediations. Uh and they're

491
00:45:41,359 --> 00:45:51,760
I say I would say 80 to% or more
successful in resolving cases to avoid

492
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:55,040
uh lengthy litigation.
So

493
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:59,520
» if I may add on that um you know I think
part of it is just what attorney Pelisy

494
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:04,240
mentioned before just the transparency
um and the communication between the

495
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:08,079
firm and the town. um if there's a
matter that comes up um with clients,

496
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:12,800
you know, and they say, you know, we're
really not looking to spend a whole lot

497
00:46:09,839 --> 00:46:16,400
on this or um you know, this is kind of
our cap of what we're looking at. You

498
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:21,119
know, we have no problem working within
those bounds and advising, you know, the

499
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:24,880
client, hey, you know, this is where we
are with our research on it or what

500
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:28,160
we're doing. You know, we're approaching
this amount. Let us know, you know, do

501
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:32,319
you want us to proceed? Do you want us
to wrap it up? And just keeping that

502
00:46:29,599 --> 00:46:37,200
line of communication open is huge. And
I think our firm as a whole um are very

503
00:46:35,119 --> 00:46:41,839
conscious of costs for our clients um
and being responsive to that need and

504
00:46:40,319 --> 00:46:45,920
being responsive to clients and
understanding that um is a huge part of

505
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:52,160
what we do and that's a huge part of
recognizing when a matter may not be

506
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:57,200
worth continuing fighting like attorney
Pisy was saying and and being very

507
00:46:54,240 --> 00:47:01,599
upfront about that um because attorney's
fees do add up and you know there comes

508
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:04,319
a point in time when any given matter
you it may be worth it to like, you

509
00:47:03,119 --> 00:47:08,560
know, let's have a frank discussion
about it and wrap this up sooner than

510
00:47:06,319 --> 00:47:13,359
later. Um, but we will always keep
communication open as far as cost

511
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:16,800
control. Um, that's something we always
willing to do and and would do with the

512
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:21,119
town as well.
>> Thank you.

513
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:25,280
» Municipal legal matters often span years
and personal changes. What systems and

514
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:30,480
practices would your firm use to
document legal advice, key decisions,

515
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:34,880
open matters, and historical context to
Watertown?

516
00:47:33,119 --> 00:47:39,200
I'm sorry. So, Watertown preserves
institutional memory. How would you

517
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:43,440
ensure a clean handoff if the assigned
attorney changes on the engagement ends

518
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:49,359
while appropriately protecting
privileged and confidential material?

519
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:55,280
Well, as long as I'm around, uh, I can
provide a lot of historical

520
00:47:52,400 --> 00:48:04,160
institutional background, uh, to any
matter that comes in. And almost all of

521
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:09,920
what we do on a matter like that is
documented. It is in writing and it

522
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:15,440
would be included in a status report
that I would do either every two months

523
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:21,280
or every one month depending on how much
change there is. But we always have

524
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:34,160
pretty good records. Uh most of our
records go back about a minimum eight

525
00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:40,559
years. Uh some matters uh go back uh
up to 20 years, but the young people in

526
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:44,640
my office tell me that that can all be
saved on these things called computers.

527
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:51,200
» It is all saved.
>> And uh I don't personally do a lot of

528
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:57,520
work on the computer, but if you send me
an email, I can say thank you. Uh, but I

529
00:48:54,240 --> 00:49:02,559
have a lot of other people that that
assist with that. I do read every email

530
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:08,319
that comes to me. I read every day.
Every phone call that comes in, I answer

531
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:13,680
either the same day or the next morning.
So, I'm always aware of what's going on.

532
00:49:11,119 --> 00:49:18,079
Uh, the other lawyers in my office, if
they get an email, they can read it on

533
00:49:15,119 --> 00:49:21,680
their phone eating dinner. I mean,
that's like magical to me, but I know

534
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:25,200
they can do it because I've been with
them when they Oh, this email just came

535
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:30,800
in. By the way, it's for you. What do
you want to say? So, there's always

536
00:49:28,240 --> 00:49:36,720
somebody watching all of our emails uh
in the office. I watch only the ones

537
00:49:33,839 --> 00:49:42,720
that come to me. But if anyone else
receives an email that they know or

538
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:47,760
suspect even that it's mine, they will
print it out and put it in a designated

539
00:49:45,359 --> 00:49:53,200
area for me to access it.
>> But yes, all our all our documentation

540
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:57,680
is saved electronically um securely and
any transition is is fairly easily done

541
00:49:56,079 --> 00:50:02,079
because of the way the system's set up.
So, if you know there was a transfer in

542
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:05,440
counsel or whatever, um transferring
those files, it's it's screened by the

543
00:50:04,079 --> 00:50:08,079
attorneys that handled the matter to
make sure there's nothing that shouldn't

544
00:50:06,559 --> 00:50:12,400
be disclosed and it would be transferred
over.

545
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:16,559
» Okay, this is our last um formal
question. Based on your review of

546
00:50:14,240 --> 00:50:20,800
Watertown's needs, what do you see as
the most important responsibilities of

547
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:25,599
the town attorney and how would your
firm approach serving the council, town

548
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:31,520
manager, boards, commissions, and
departments? Well, the important thing

549
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:36,800
to that I've always recognized is the
town attorney has no independent power

550
00:50:33,599 --> 00:50:42,400
to make any decision or take any action
unless it's authorized.

551
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:48,720
So that's my starting point in any
matter that is referred to me is to

552
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:52,880
write a status report. If it's
important, it will be more than a status

553
00:50:50,559 --> 00:50:59,599
report. It will be a sitdown in person
with the manager or the council. Uh but

554
00:50:56,559 --> 00:51:06,800
as far as uh
documenting and dealing with that stuff,

555
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:12,720
uh we do it pretty quickly.
>> And if I may add on that, I think, um

556
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:15,920
one of the most important things from
a town attorney perspective is just

557
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:19,760
making sure that the town manager and
the town council has the information

558
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:25,359
that they need to make the decisions
that they need to make. And that means

559
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:28,800
um access you know explaining what
options there are and what risks there

560
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:32,559
are and making sure that the information
is provided so that you guys can make

561
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:36,880
the informed decision.
>> Uh my position is I should never be

562
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:44,240
working on anything
uh or taking any actions unless it's

563
00:51:41,119 --> 00:51:50,000
authorized by someone else. And that
could be a board or commission more

564
00:51:46,559 --> 00:51:54,240
likely the town manager's office. Uh but
I

565
00:51:51,680 --> 00:52:00,160
have never taken action on my own
without authority and the knowledge of

566
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:05,280
either a chairman or a border commission
or the town manager and then if it's

567
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:09,200
appropriate the full council or the full
water and sewer authority or the full

568
00:52:06,559 --> 00:52:14,240
planning and zoning any agency involved
they should all know what's going on.

569
00:52:12,319 --> 00:52:18,839
» And finally is there anything we haven't
asked you that you think the council

570
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,839
should know?

571
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:30,559
Well, uh
I mean I always say that self-praise is

572
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:36,480
no praise. Uh but I would say that
during all of the time that I did serve

573
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:42,319
as town attorney, uh I think I did a
pretty good job and I always made the

574
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:48,160
town the most important client in the
office. So that wasn't by way of praise.

575
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:52,640
It was just
giving you my opinion.

576
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:56,720
» And we do have a couple more minutes if
we have any additional questions. I did

577
00:52:54,720 --> 00:53:01,839
want to start off with one kind of going
back to our situation with water and

578
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:06,240
sewer. Um,
as you guys are aware, uh, Pel was not a

579
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:10,240
lead attorney. He was not part of the
litigation of any of that, but he did

580
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:14,559
have a lot of opinions and a lot of the,
um, history that went with, um, our

581
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:20,480
water and sewer relationship with
Waterberry. Um, and I guess my question

582
00:53:17,599 --> 00:53:24,720
is there's a lot of
um, maybe I'm not sure if it would be

583
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:30,079
trust issues, but a lot of people would
start pointing fingers at any attorney,

584
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:34,720
any person that was involved in our
current water and sewer debate or uh,

585
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:43,200
battle with Waterberry. I was just
wondering if you had any comments on how

586
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:47,359
you could kind of settle their their um,
>> well,

587
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:53,040
» their concern. First of all, I was not
involved as an attorney in any of that.

588
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:59,119
I was not
present during any strategy discussions.

589
00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:05,119
I was not I I was asked a couple of
times uh my opinion on something, but it

590
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:10,720
was usually after the fact when a
decision had already been pretty much

591
00:54:07,119 --> 00:54:18,800
made. So, I was not involved in any
decision making about that. There were

592
00:54:14,079 --> 00:54:24,720
it came a time where I suspected
uh that the town at large had not

593
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:31,440
received
enough information about the case. And I

594
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:36,480
agreed and actually I promoted and
brought up the idea of having a meeting

595
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:43,839
in the high school auditorium and invite
anybody there uh to come and hear what

596
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:52,079
the case was all about. And
ear prior to that, I wrote a memo to uh

597
00:54:49,359 --> 00:54:57,440
the interim manager, John Gavales, uh
because he asked me about it and I said

598
00:54:55,359 --> 00:55:07,040
I would rather put it in writing so that
it can be passed on. And so I explained

599
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:12,240
most of what I knew in that. Uh and then
uh after the fact uh when things didn't

600
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:17,200
work out the way I had hoped and
certainly the way everybody else had

601
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:24,240
hoped uh I thought uh that the town
council was getting a bad rap. So I took

602
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:30,480
it upon myself to write a long
background about the whole case and that

603
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:39,680
was written after what happened
happened. uh and I uh I probably

604
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:46,400
personally distributed about 1,500 of
those documents. And my goal was that I

605
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:51,839
thought it was extremely unfair uh that
people were blaming the town council and

606
00:55:48,559 --> 00:55:58,079
the town manager. And
a lot of individuals that read that uh

607
00:55:55,520 --> 00:56:03,599
have called me or bumped into me and
said, "Thank you." Because nobody knew

608
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:09,599
any of this. And it also disturbed me
that the Waterberry newspaper uh to this

609
00:56:06,799 --> 00:56:15,839
day has not printed one sentence of what
Watertown's side of that case is. And I

610
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:20,000
again took it upon myself to prepare a
document that could be easily

611
00:56:17,119 --> 00:56:27,520
distributed so that everyone would know
what what water towns what prompted the

612
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:32,400
decisions that were made. And uh I think
I did it a lot just to also defend the

613
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:37,920
council and the town manager because uh
a lot of people in my view that were

614
00:56:34,720 --> 00:56:44,799
critical of
yourselves and the manager uh knew next

615
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:55,760
to nothing about what that case was
about.

616
00:56:47,440 --> 00:57:02,640
So that was uh again kind of like uh
more should have been said in the public

617
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:10,720
about this case in the old days. You
could count on uh either the Waterbury

618
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:15,680
paper or the town times uh would be
willing to spend a lot of time

619
00:57:13,119 --> 00:57:20,319
explaining Watertown side of the case. I
haven't seen a sentence yet in any in

620
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:27,599
any newspaper
uh explaining Watertown side of the

621
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:30,880
case. Thus, I prepared what I prepared.
>> Are there any other time? But

622
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:35,760
» y
>> Attorney Pelosi, from what I understand,

623
00:57:33,599 --> 00:57:40,240
um you made recommendations to raise
rates and put money aside in case we did

624
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:45,520
lose the litigation. Is that correct?
>> That's correct. What would you do

625
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:51,680
differently this time if um the same
scenario arose and um it was kind of

626
00:57:49,839 --> 00:57:57,599
falling on deaf ears again? What could
you do differently to make the council

627
00:57:53,839 --> 00:58:03,680
or the manager really understand? I made
that recommendation verbally

628
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:12,160
to a lot of people uh in the early
stages of that case and I think they got

629
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:18,160
sick of me saying that and uh and then I
was told that they did raise the rates

630
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:22,799
and I said it's probably not enough. You
got to

631
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:30,319
raise them to make sure you have every
dollar you need in case

632
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:35,920
you don't prevail in the case. And uh
like I say, the last time we had that

633
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:40,880
big dispute over water bills, uh I did
the same thing and they did raise the

634
00:58:37,839 --> 00:58:48,680
rates. And when we settled the case with
Waterberry without paying anything, the

635
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:48,680
town had about 2002 2,4500,000

636
00:58:49,119 --> 00:58:56,720
in a special water and sewer account
that wasn't needed for anything. and I

637
00:58:53,680 --> 00:59:01,520
recommended that that be used for future
capital projects so you wouldn't have to

638
00:58:58,799 --> 00:59:04,880
go bond for it. But there were members
of the water and sewer authority for

639
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:12,240
whatever reason they wanted to give
refunds. So they decided to give every

640
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:17,599
rateayer a check for a refund. And
that's the first time I think Frank

641
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:22,400
Nardelli was going to was not was upset
with everybody because he didn't want to

642
00:59:19,119 --> 00:59:27,599
write all those checks but he did. Uh
and what was very frustrating to me

643
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:32,960
personally was within a couple of years
the town is off to a new uh sewer

644
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:37,200
extension project and they had to go out
and bond for the money that they had.

645
00:59:35,599 --> 00:59:42,160
And it made no sense to me because now
the rate payers uh if that money was

646
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:47,359
left there it might have earned some
income investment income and you

647
00:59:44,559 --> 00:59:52,720
probably would have had about I don't
know 2.6 6 million to use for future

648
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:57,359
projects uh that you wouldn't have to
bond. So I think that was a missed

649
00:59:55,200 --> 01:00:02,160
opportunity.
>> And that being said, how do you explain

650
00:59:59,599 --> 01:00:06,079
to the taxpayer that we're holding on to
your money in a way where they're

651
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:10,559
saying, "Hey, hold on a second. We paid
you this money. It's not being used for

652
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:16,400
that particular scenario. We want it
back." Well, that's the other side of uh

653
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:20,079
what I just said, and that's the
position that was adopted by the then

654
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:25,040
members of the Water and Sewer
Authority. They said, "It's the

655
01:00:21,599 --> 01:00:28,559
rateayers money. Let's give it back." Uh
I was of a different view that you're

656
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:34,319
only going to have to go out and borrow
it again very soon. And the same people,

657
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:40,000
so the same people that had already paid
it, it was that much that they wouldn't

658
01:00:37,839 --> 01:00:44,559
have to pay again.
uh and they would have saved a lot of

659
01:00:43,119 --> 01:00:50,160
interest. So I think the rateayers would
have made out better without the refund.

660
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:54,799
» Sure. I can understand that from a
fiscal responsibility aspect. It's just

661
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:58,240
you know trying to make sense out of
that.

662
01:00:55,359 --> 01:01:02,960
» Everybody go to refund.
>> Thank you. Appreciate your time.

663
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:08,480
» Any other questions? We are about out of
time. Anyone else?

664
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:13,040
Well, thank you for everything.
Thank you for the opportunity and uh I

665
01:01:11,599 --> 01:01:18,799
hope we've answered all of your
questions and I hope we will be

666
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:21,359
considered uh for the position.
>> Thank you very much.

667
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:26,559
» Thank you very much.
>> Thank you.

668
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:31,119
» Is attorney here yet?
>> I think they're out in the hall.

669
01:01:28,559 --> 01:01:36,960
» And do we need to take a break at all or
are we good to continue? Yeah, if we

670
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:40,520
could just take a five minute recess and
we'll reconvene.

671
01:01:41,119 --> 01:01:48,400
» I'm just scoring.
>> So, we're putting in a one to five here.

672
01:01:45,839 --> 01:01:52,359
» And then it gets multiplied by that.
>> Yeah.

673
01:01:48,799 --> 01:01:52,359
» To get to this.

674
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:58,040
» All right. Five being the highest, one
being the lowest.

675
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:18,880
like to bring this meeting back to
order. Uh next is um we're going to

676
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:22,880
interview Torrance Sat Saddak and
Hennessy. And if you guys want to

677
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:26,079
introduce yourself and tell us a little
about a little bit about your firm and

678
01:02:24,799 --> 01:02:29,200
then we have a handful of questions that
we want to ask you.

679
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:32,960
» Sure. Thank you. Good evening, Mr.
Chair. Good evening, honorable council

680
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:35,119
members. My name is Stephanie Cummings.
I'm here with the honorable Judge

681
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:36,480
Agatti.
>> How do you do?

682
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:39,599
» Good evening
>> for this uh interview. We thank you for

683
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:43,920
your time this evening. I know this is
not your regular evening, so I

684
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:48,880
appreciate this extra time. Um I have
been with Cardi Torren Sandak and

685
01:02:45,839 --> 01:02:53,280
Hennessy since 2019.
Prior to that, I was with a small firm

686
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:58,000
directly across the street and also
serving in the Connecticut legislature.

687
01:02:55,440 --> 01:03:02,240
Um I also served on the board of
alderman in Waterberry. I spent grew up

688
01:03:00,559 --> 01:03:08,799
in Waterberry even though I went to St.
Mary Magdalene. Um started my practice

689
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:12,559
and in really being um local like a
local girl have stayed in Waterberry

690
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:16,079
with respect to practice um even though
I have recently moved out and spent a

691
01:03:14,079 --> 01:03:20,880
lot of my formative years in public
office. So one of the things I think is

692
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:24,559
really unique about our experience is
that I understand what it's like to sit

693
01:03:22,559 --> 01:03:29,440
in your chair and to be the legal
counsel. So, I understand with both hats

694
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:35,039
and sometimes the legal decision is not
just the decision that is the one that

695
01:03:33,119 --> 01:03:37,760
meets the the statutes or the case law,
but there's also the public perception

696
01:03:36,319 --> 01:03:41,359
that you have to be worrying about. And
those things are so critical when you're

697
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:46,400
looking at um how to proceed as a
municipality.

698
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:50,559
Um my practice at Cardy is a bit diverse
because I came from a smaller practice.

699
01:03:48,559 --> 01:03:55,440
Um so I do a little bit of everything.
Um, I currently handle uh primarily all

700
01:03:53,359 --> 01:04:00,319
of the land use for the town of
Prospect. Um, I have, uh, with his

701
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:04,880
honor, we have done the town of
Woodberry's charter revision commission.

702
01:04:02,559 --> 01:04:11,119
Um, I chaired my own charter revision
commission in the city of Waterberry.

703
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:14,640
Um, I handle uh, employment matters,
labor matters, and a lot of real

704
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:20,000
property and development matters. So, I
have a very diverse practice. Um but I

705
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:24,720
am able to rely on and one of the
beautiful things about is the depth of

706
01:04:22,559 --> 01:04:28,079
our bench. So if there is a matter that
comes to me that is not within my

707
01:04:26,319 --> 01:04:32,960
specialty, I can reach out to one of my
colleagues amongst our offices and to

708
01:04:30,559 --> 01:04:37,039
rely on their specialty either to
introduce my client to that specialty um

709
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:41,119
or to work hand inand if it's something
that we need to collaborate on. So I'll

710
01:04:39,119 --> 01:04:44,000
turn it over before we talk about
>> I'll be a little shorter. Um so I

711
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:47,920
practice
>> longer practice. I practiced for 19

712
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:53,039
years in in Waterbury uh downtown
Waterbury. So I I have matters involving

713
01:04:51,119 --> 01:04:57,520
Watertown, represent many people in
Watertown. Um I moved to Watertown

714
01:04:55,520 --> 01:05:02,400
myself. I live living in Watertown for
31 years now. And then um I just saw my

715
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:06,720
builders out in the hallway. He has a uh
wetlands meeting, but um I'm building in

716
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:10,720
up on Palm View, the 55 and older
community, Mark Lovely community. So um

717
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:16,000
I we moved here, as I said, 31 years
ago. We love Watertown. So, um, you

718
01:05:13,039 --> 01:05:21,440
know, it's close to my heart. Um, I was
a superior court judge for 22 years. I

719
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:26,319
handled every kind of matter you can
think of. Um, I was sat on complex

720
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:30,480
litigation for five years. I was the
administrative judge for for five years.

721
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:37,039
I was a a presiding judge over civil
matters for uh nine years. So, I um, you

722
01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:41,280
know, I've got a a wealth of knowledge,
which is what I do now at at the firm.

723
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:46,720
What I do is I do private mediations and
arbitrations, but I'm also the um uh

724
01:05:45,359 --> 01:05:52,160
consultant for the litigation
department. So, I review a lot of the

725
01:05:49,119 --> 01:05:56,480
litigation matters. I assist u and any
kind of statutory issues. So that's how

726
01:05:54,240 --> 01:06:02,240
I got involved with the the charter
revision commission actually uh your

727
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:09,760
president or now leaving council Paul
Jessel recommended me to Woodbury to uh

728
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:14,079
to uh uh chair the uh the uh charter
revision commission in in Woodbury and

729
01:06:11,599 --> 01:06:18,640
Stephanie and I did that together. So,
um,

730
01:06:16,079 --> 01:06:25,039
so I I'm I'm here because I'm the water
I'm the water tone element of this, but,

731
01:06:21,599 --> 01:06:29,839
um, but, uh, I I obviously I know this
the town very well, having lived here

732
01:06:27,039 --> 01:06:33,920
all my kids once I still feel like this
is I remember this is Hemingway school

733
01:06:31,839 --> 01:06:39,200
and my kids going to school here. So,
um, and and they started at Griffin,

734
01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:41,359
which is now CBS. So, things have
changed, but we're still here. So,

735
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:44,640
» went to all those schools.
>> Yeah, I know. I know. Well, we're using

736
01:06:43,119 --> 01:06:47,760
them in one way or another, so it's
great. So, I'll let I'll go defer back

737
01:06:46,559 --> 01:06:50,880
to Stephanie. She'll give you a little
more of the detail of what um the firm

738
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:55,760
does.
>> Yeah. So, comedy is a full practice law

739
01:06:52,880 --> 01:07:00,799
firm. We've been in Connecticut for over
125 years. Actually, this is our 12th

740
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:04,000
25th anniversary. Um we are the largest
law firm that's solely within

741
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:07,440
Connecticut. We do not have offices
outside the state of Connecticut, but we

742
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:11,839
do have several locations throughout the
state. We started in Waterberry. We then

743
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:15,839
moved to New Haven where we still have
an office. Um, we now have an office in

744
01:07:14,319 --> 01:07:20,960
Stamford. There was a merger I think
back in 2014. Um, we have since picked

745
01:07:19,039 --> 01:07:26,480
up a firm in Guilford that's merging
into our New Haven office and recently

746
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:29,920
we picked up a New London office. Um, so
some of the the information that you'll

747
01:07:28,319 --> 01:07:34,640
see in the packet indicates, you know,
for example, East Lime that we were not

748
01:07:31,599 --> 01:07:39,039
handling their labor negotiations. Um
that's likely because the firm that was

749
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:43,839
in New London didn't have the the
practice um and able to do that. So they

750
01:07:41,359 --> 01:07:49,280
have last year merged in with us. We
have about 90 attorneys um and we have

751
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:52,400
the way that we're divided is into
primary practice groups. We have a

752
01:07:50,799 --> 01:07:57,200
litigation practice group. We have a
business services practice group which

753
01:07:54,559 --> 01:08:01,920
is what the municipal um items would
fall under. And then we have trust and

754
01:07:59,599 --> 01:08:05,920
estates and then real property and kind
of development which is a real hot focus

755
01:08:04,079 --> 01:08:10,559
for our communities down more in the
Fairfield County area like Stamford that

756
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:14,720
sees a lot of growth. Um so our offices
are staffed those offices are staffed

757
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:18,239
full-time. We also have um satellite
offices in South Berry and Litfield

758
01:08:16,239 --> 01:08:22,480
which are primarily used by our estate
planning attorneys more for convenience

759
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:25,920
of their clients. Um the Stamford office
really seems to focus on the real estate

760
01:08:24,319 --> 01:08:30,400
the development just based on the nature
of where that that office is located.

761
01:08:28,239 --> 01:08:35,520
New Haven and Waterberry were kind of a
mix of business services and litigation.

762
01:08:33,359 --> 01:08:39,520
Um the New London office was primarily a
trust and estates office and the

763
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:43,679
Guilford office was primarily medical
malpractice defense. But you do find us,

764
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:49,600
you know, merged around through all of
the offices. Um, we have a fantastic

765
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:53,759
support staff team. Um, we have, uh, you
know, from summer associates to

766
01:08:51,279 --> 01:08:58,640
associates to contract partners and and
and full partners. Um, so, and one of

767
01:08:56,400 --> 01:09:03,679
the things that we very much focus on is
our succession planning. So with a deep

768
01:09:01,679 --> 01:09:08,960
bench and with being able to be around
for 125 years, you have to have a plan

769
01:09:07,359 --> 01:09:13,520
of how are your clients going to
transition um from generation to

770
01:09:11,359 --> 01:09:17,279
generation. Um so that is something that
the firm very much focuses on. It's a

771
01:09:15,839 --> 01:09:20,880
lot of time spent at our partners
meetings talking about if you're

772
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:26,319
planning on retiring at any point in the
future, I can't wait. Um but I got a lot

773
01:09:23,759 --> 01:09:29,839
of lot of years to go. Um there's you
have to be identifying who's going to be

774
01:09:28,239 --> 01:09:35,040
taking over your cases and bringing them
up to speed so that it's not a hard stop

775
01:09:32,480 --> 01:09:39,199
and the client feels that there's a
continuity of practice and that they're

776
01:09:37,359 --> 01:09:43,759
going to be handled by someone who
understands the nuances of whatever they

777
01:09:41,199 --> 01:09:49,120
may be. Um our clients typically range
from municipalities,

778
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:54,159
um hospitals, um business entities and
some individuals. We typically, you

779
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:57,360
know, do not represent, for example, um
the typically we won't represent the

780
01:09:55,760 --> 01:10:01,120
union in a collective bargaining action.
We typically represent the employer in

781
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:06,080
our labor and employment practice. We do
not represent um plaintiffs in medical

782
01:10:04,239 --> 01:10:10,000
malpractice cases. We only represent the
hospitals to stay away from those

783
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:14,480
positional conflicts. And I know there
was concern about like what does a

784
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:20,239
conflict process look like at Cardy. So
the conflict uh check process is very uh

785
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:26,400
elaborate. anytime that we want to bring
in a new client, we send um every single

786
01:10:24,159 --> 01:10:30,400
name of a person that's involved in that
um through a system that then runs a

787
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:34,480
check against all of the matters
firmwide so that we make sure and then

788
01:10:32,719 --> 01:10:39,360
we get a printed report that we look
through to see if there's any sort of

789
01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:43,760
conflict and it also goes out by email
at the end of the day so that if there's

790
01:10:41,440 --> 01:10:49,120
a positional conflict that didn't get a
direct hit, we can talk about that. Um,

791
01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:54,159
so we are always making sure that we are
above board with ethics and if there's

792
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:58,719
there are certain conflicts that we know
that are not waveable. You know, one I'm

793
01:10:57,360 --> 01:11:02,080
not going to be sitting next to Sal
suing his client and he's defending

794
01:11:00,480 --> 01:11:07,120
mine, but there are sometimes that
there's gray area. So, we actually have

795
01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:10,000
an ethics attorney um on our team that
we can go to and say, "What do you think

796
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:13,520
about this? Is this something that we
need to get a is this waveable? Is this

797
01:11:12,159 --> 01:11:18,080
something that we should get a waiver?"
So we even have we've gone to that

798
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:25,280
length to make sure that we can be above
board in all circumstances and uh

799
01:11:21,040 --> 01:11:26,480
proceeding as ethically as possible.
>> Thank you.

800
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:29,280
» Okay.
>> The chair,

801
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:34,000
» may I ask a follow-up question to that?
Um, this came up in one of the town

802
01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:38,000
council meetings, um, about possible
conflicts of interest with the Taft

803
01:11:35,520 --> 01:11:43,040
school and you obviously have a current
attorney who represents Taft and a

804
01:11:40,480 --> 01:11:47,280
former Taft attorney who is working for
the firm along with her husband who are

805
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:51,440
also Taft parents. So, I'm just
wondering how would that be resolved? I

806
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:56,000
mean, you just obviously talked about
your whole process. Um, but yeah, just

807
01:11:54,400 --> 01:11:59,920
could you speak to that? Sure. So, that
was actually me. I was the one who was

808
01:11:57,760 --> 01:12:03,679
representing Taft before the land use
boards which is a procedural

809
01:12:01,120 --> 01:12:06,960
» I'm speaking about the Hennib and
Gianbana Weller

810
01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:11,280
» specifically.
>> Okay. So yes and for full full

811
01:12:09,199 --> 01:12:16,719
transparency I did represent Taft before
the land use board. Um Susan Hannib is

812
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:20,080
of council with our firm. Um there's a
lot of matters that we represent for

813
01:12:18,239 --> 01:12:23,040
Taft and for other businesses that have
that are completely separate and

814
01:12:21,440 --> 01:12:26,480
distinct from what anything that would
be a conflict of interest with the town.

815
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:30,080
For example, if Taft wants to purchase a
piece of property from a third-party

816
01:12:28,159 --> 01:12:34,960
land owner that doesn't involve the
town. When we do find that there are uh

817
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:38,400
direct conflicts, we don't represent
either side. So, we will not be either

818
01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:44,239
side of a position where there's a
direct conflict. If we find something

819
01:12:40,719 --> 01:12:47,760
that we believe that could be a conflict
that we want to get a waiver for, we

820
01:12:46,159 --> 01:12:51,120
make sure to do that in a very informed
and written manner. So, we would say,

821
01:12:49,679 --> 01:12:56,239
you know, we don't believe that there's
any current conflict. We could foresee

822
01:12:53,760 --> 01:13:00,880
that if for some reason this went
sideways, there could be a conflict. And

823
01:12:58,480 --> 01:13:06,560
then in our conflict waiverss, we say if
we ever get to the point where this is

824
01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:12,080
no longer procedural, it has become
adversarial, we get out from both sides

825
01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:17,760
and we would then refer out.
>> Okay. Thank you. You're welcome.

826
01:13:15,760 --> 01:13:21,679
» Can I guess
>> as long as we're on the conflict issue?

827
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:27,520
Sure. Um,
I need reassurance

828
01:13:24,159 --> 01:13:31,679
or comments from you with regard to your
representation and your loyalty to the

829
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:36,320
city of Waterberry.
>> Sure. So, in seeing the due diligence,

830
01:13:34,719 --> 01:13:39,440
we actually went back and did some
additional digging as to what our

831
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:45,280
current representation of the city of
Waterberry is. It doesn't seem that we

832
01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:49,920
actually have any matters that are
active. So when I ran my conflict check

833
01:13:48,239 --> 01:13:54,080
again, I saw five matters that show up
as open and simply because they haven't

834
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:59,679
been closed. So it was things like
establishing the um Waterberry Land

835
01:13:57,120 --> 01:14:04,239
Bank. So a regulatory establishment in
2023. I helped the city of Waterberry

836
01:14:02,320 --> 01:14:08,880
establish their fair rent commission
procedures and policies. That was a

837
01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:13,679
oneanddone situation. Um our firm helped
create the nonprofit entity and gain tax

838
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:18,880
exemption for Waterberry Promise, which
is a scholarship foundation. Frankly, we

839
01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:22,400
have not done any work since the um
Olyri administration. Have not done any

840
01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:28,000
substantial work since the Olyri
administration was in. Um we do uh have

841
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:31,920
relationships with the city of
Waterberry. We are we're across the

842
01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:36,239
street from city hall. We try to be good
partners with the city of Waterberry,

843
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:41,440
but we don't have any active litigation
matters or ongoing negotiations uh with

844
01:14:39,199 --> 01:14:47,120
the city of Waterberry at this time.
>> The firm's never represented the city

845
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:52,239
directly. They've always been uh brought
in as a either a conflict or for a

846
01:14:49,920 --> 01:14:55,520
particular case or issue, but they they
have never had an active relationship

847
01:14:54,239 --> 01:14:58,000
because they have their own corporation
council. Yeah.

848
01:14:56,480 --> 01:15:01,360
» And they have and they have Yeah. They
have at least you know uh you know staff

849
01:15:00,480 --> 01:15:05,440
of attorneys that
>> So you haven't represented them the same

850
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:09,760
way you would be representing us?
>> Not since the Yria administration. So

851
01:15:07,760 --> 01:15:13,440
the water waterberry has corporation
council. So, they actually have a

852
01:15:11,440 --> 01:15:18,640
full-time legal department which handles
the majority of their cases. So,

853
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:23,440
historically, attorneys I had not even
met that were gone prior to my arrival

854
01:15:20,800 --> 01:15:27,760
at Cardy and the Jarura administration
had done some um like one-off work when

855
01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:32,400
it was a specialty that their
corporation council could not handle,

856
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:38,400
needed to refer it out for uh more
expertise. Um but Maro Liry has been was

857
01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:43,280
has is out of office now and was in
since I think 2011. So, it's been a long

858
01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:46,800
period of time since we've done anything
substantial except for creating policies

859
01:15:45,360 --> 01:15:51,840
and procedures, kind of the little
one-off um information. Thank you.

860
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:55,199
You're welcome.
>> Are we ready?

861
01:15:53,440 --> 01:15:59,520
» Please turn your mic on.
>> Thank you.

862
01:15:57,120 --> 01:16:02,960
» It's good to see you again.
I've met you in the past and it's good

863
01:16:01,280 --> 01:16:07,440
to see your honor, Judge.
>> And you were not at my home at two in

864
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:07,440
the morning.

865
01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:13,000
Don't even want to know.
>> I don't want to know.

866
01:16:15,440 --> 01:16:17,840
» Search or arrest warrants. One or the
other.

867
01:16:17,440 --> 01:16:21,600
» Yes.
>> Yeah.

868
01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:26,880
» There is a concern I do have.
>> Sure.

869
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:32,800
» And it's a major concern to me regarding
item seven firm specific matter

870
01:16:30,159 --> 01:16:38,800
requiring resolution.
It mentions that during this evaluative

871
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:45,040
process of us determining whether we're
going to retain your firm to represent

872
01:16:41,679 --> 01:16:49,440
the town of Watertown.
>> What occurs thereafter regarding the

873
01:16:47,440 --> 01:16:51,600
water dispute?
>> We were not involved in the water

874
01:16:50,640 --> 01:16:53,280
dispute at all.
>> Pardon?

875
01:16:52,080 --> 01:17:00,000
» We were not involved in the water
dispute at all.

876
01:16:56,480 --> 01:17:04,239
If you're representing us,
>> would it be a conflict if it's

877
01:17:02,640 --> 01:17:06,960
contradictory
what as to what they would want?

878
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:09,440
» No.
>> No. We don't have any active engagement

879
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:14,960
with them.
>> We don't have a relationship with the

880
01:17:11,280 --> 01:17:18,719
the city of Waterbury on u
>> based on what all so we did some

881
01:17:16,640 --> 01:17:22,719
homework on this anticipating that
question and we have not discovered

882
01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:27,120
anything that would create a conflict.
Now, you know, if something were to

883
01:17:24,719 --> 01:17:29,600
unrise as I'm unearthing things, that
would be something that we would

884
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:34,960
discuss. But at this point in time, we
have no reason to believe that we would

885
01:17:31,600 --> 01:17:39,840
not be able to uh, you know, voraciously
advocate for the town of Watertown

886
01:17:37,280 --> 01:17:44,719
against the city of Waterberry in the
water issue or any other issue that may

887
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:51,040
arise. Specifically, it says here,
Attorney Cummings, during the town has

888
01:17:48,159 --> 01:17:56,320
engaged outside council to handle
Waterberry adjacent manners during this

889
01:17:53,760 --> 01:18:00,640
evaluation period.
What about thereafter?

890
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:06,000
» So, I don't know what. So, there are
certainly times that we have um referred

891
01:18:04,159 --> 01:18:09,600
cases out for other municipalities when
we thought that there could be a

892
01:18:07,199 --> 01:18:16,159
conflict again for ethical purposes. For
example, um there is a land owner in the

893
01:18:12,880 --> 01:18:21,600
town of Prospect um with whom we've done
um unrelated not land use work, but we

894
01:18:19,679 --> 01:18:26,080
thought that it would be a conflict to
have done that some some work for the

895
01:18:24,080 --> 01:18:30,159
family and then to be representing the
town of Prospect in kind of an

896
01:18:27,440 --> 01:18:34,400
adversarial position. So, we contacted
council and referred it out. um we

897
01:18:32,800 --> 01:18:38,320
simply did not want to put either party
that we have had a relationship with

898
01:18:36,560 --> 01:18:42,880
even though we weren't involved in
either side um we didn't want to create

899
01:18:40,719 --> 01:18:47,520
a positional conflict.
>> Thank you very much explain to me. Thank

900
01:18:45,120 --> 01:18:51,600
you. So we could continue with our set
questions and we'll come back to some of

901
01:18:49,360 --> 01:18:54,159
the one-off ones near the end. I'm sure
>> um

902
01:18:52,480 --> 01:18:58,000
» we have eight questions. You may have
answered some of them but happy to

903
01:18:56,800 --> 01:19:02,719
answer any questions you may have.
>> Okay, that's fine. Uh first one,

904
01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:07,280
describe your firm's experience across
the range of legal matters and

905
01:19:04,480 --> 01:19:11,760
municipality like Watertown.
Um how you encounter municipal

906
01:19:09,679 --> 01:19:17,040
governance, land use, contracts,
litigation,

907
01:19:13,440 --> 01:19:21,280
FOI, ethics, ordinance, etc. Uh how
would you determine which attorney in

908
01:19:18,800 --> 01:19:24,719
your firm would handle a given matter
and who would be Watertown's primary

909
01:19:23,600 --> 01:19:28,159
contact?
>> So that's I will try to get to all of

910
01:19:26,880 --> 01:19:32,560
the elements of that. If I miss one,
please do remind me. So, I would be your

911
01:19:30,719 --> 01:19:36,080
primary point of contact, but it would
unlikely be me handling every single

912
01:19:34,480 --> 01:19:40,239
kind of matter that you have because we
have developed our own specialties. For

913
01:19:38,159 --> 01:19:44,239
example, my colleague Vincent Fericella
would be able to represent the town with

914
01:19:42,159 --> 01:19:48,080
respect to its collective bargaining
agreements. I think you have five

915
01:19:45,600 --> 01:19:54,640
collective bargaining units. Uh actually
when we were doing our research we found

916
01:19:50,159 --> 01:20:00,560
that back in the like 86 87 era did
represent the town of Watertown and had

917
01:19:56,960 --> 01:20:03,760
done some like very historic um uh union
negotiations. It seems like you know

918
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:09,199
you've got your communications unit,
you've got your public works unit, um

919
01:20:06,159 --> 01:20:13,120
your highway unit. Um so those would be
handled likely by my colleague Vincent.

920
01:20:11,440 --> 01:20:16,320
But you could call me and say, "Hey, you
know, I have this issue. It's collective

921
01:20:14,640 --> 01:20:19,600
bargaining. Who do we go to?" and I
would send you to Vincent. At some

922
01:20:17,679 --> 01:20:23,280
point, likely the relationship would
develop that if there's a collective

923
01:20:21,040 --> 01:20:28,080
bargaining issue, I go to Vincent. With
litigation, it depends on what the

924
01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:34,400
litigation matter is. You know, is it a
um a slip and fall? Is it um a tax

925
01:20:31,679 --> 01:20:39,040
appeal? And then we would internally
discuss who's the best fit and fit the

926
01:20:36,880 --> 01:20:43,040
the client with the best attorney to do
the representation. It's not going to be

927
01:20:41,199 --> 01:20:46,640
up to you to go on the website and look
through and be like, "Oh, I think this

928
01:20:44,159 --> 01:20:50,320
is the right person." you contact me and
internally we would figure out who is

929
01:20:48,320 --> 01:20:55,280
the best fit. If it's not me, who is it
going to be? Um, we do handle

930
01:20:52,560 --> 01:21:00,400
litigation. We do handle FOI. I do a lot
of the land use, so likely that would be

931
01:20:57,199 --> 01:21:02,800
me. Um, I don't remember what else was
on your list.

932
01:21:01,679 --> 01:21:06,640
» You've covered pretty much
>> pretty much. So, we we have our own

933
01:21:04,719 --> 01:21:11,199
specialties within the firm. And one of
the good things again about the depth of

934
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:15,679
our bench is that there's always
coverage. So, it's not like if I go on

935
01:21:13,920 --> 01:21:20,560
vacation, there's nobody that's
available to to cover a meeting or if if

936
01:21:18,239 --> 01:21:24,800
an issue comes up. Uh, I'm always
reachable and if something comes up, we

937
01:21:23,520 --> 01:21:28,320
send somebody else to the meeting.
That's that's that's that's one of the

938
01:21:26,719 --> 01:21:31,679
benefits of having great colleagues is
that they do cover for you and then you

939
01:21:29,920 --> 01:21:33,360
do for that.
>> Great.

940
01:21:32,719 --> 01:21:38,400
» Anybody have
>> Can I just add one question? If I could

941
01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:43,920
add just there's a few sub specialties
within the firm too that we have two

942
01:21:41,600 --> 01:21:47,199
attorneys that do education law. I know
issues come up

943
01:21:45,760 --> 01:21:51,040
» with you know during the school year
with with students and so on. We have

944
01:21:49,199 --> 01:21:56,800
people who have dealt with this on a
regular basis. They've handled cases

945
01:21:52,960 --> 01:22:00,719
both for um uh different towns and and
as well as for uh for individuals. So

946
01:21:58,800 --> 01:22:03,840
they know they they know the education
issues. We don't have to go find

947
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:07,840
somebody. We have someone who can do
that. Um, we have environ a couple

948
01:22:06,000 --> 01:22:11,679
people. Yes. Especially just in
environmental issues. I know that comes

949
01:22:09,679 --> 01:22:14,719
up all the time. I know in the process
you as I say my builders in the next

950
01:22:13,600 --> 01:22:18,800
room with the, you know, inland
wetlands, but I mean environmental

951
01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:22,480
issues come up in in any of developments
that are going on in town and all. So,

952
01:22:20,320 --> 01:22:26,239
we have people who can provide
assistance in those areas. So, if you

953
01:22:24,480 --> 01:22:29,360
were to say, you know, contact Stephanie
and say, we have an, you know, we have

954
01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:33,920
this issue that came up in this
particular development uh and it's an

955
01:22:31,920 --> 01:22:38,320
environmental issue. she'll she'll we've
got somebody who can key right into that

956
01:22:36,400 --> 01:22:44,159
and and knows what to ask and knows what
how to deal with it. So, um I I think

957
01:22:41,600 --> 01:22:48,560
that's what's the the the the beauty of
the firm is it has so many attorneys

958
01:22:46,560 --> 01:22:53,040
that are have all these different
specialties that

959
01:22:50,239 --> 01:22:56,480
» and if we were to be selected for to to
represent you. One thing we would want

960
01:22:54,880 --> 01:23:00,000
to look to is how to develop the
hierarchy because you know looking at

961
01:22:58,239 --> 01:23:03,040
your charter it talks about that we are
the representative for both the town

962
01:23:01,440 --> 01:23:06,880
manager, the town council on all its
boards and commissions. So you have a

963
01:23:05,040 --> 01:23:11,040
finite budget and we we're mindful of
that. So understanding what your chain

964
01:23:08,480 --> 01:23:16,800
of command is, who's authorized to call
up and say, "Hey, we need an opinion so

965
01:23:12,960 --> 01:23:20,159
that we're not running up a bill that's
now been incurred." So those are the

966
01:23:18,800 --> 01:23:23,920
kinds of things that we would want to
develop in in creating what we would

967
01:23:22,080 --> 01:23:30,000
hope to be a long-term relationship so
that we know who should we be talking to

968
01:23:26,880 --> 01:23:33,840
and who do I need to call the chair or
the town manager to say, "Hey, is it

969
01:23:32,159 --> 01:23:37,040
okay that this person has asked me a
research question? Do you want me to

970
01:23:35,120 --> 01:23:40,719
take this on?" um those kinds of
relationships.

971
01:23:38,320 --> 01:23:44,400
» Um in your um I don't want to say the
file, but in your information, you list

972
01:23:42,400 --> 01:23:48,960
out about 25 different towns that you
guys have done work for in the last five

973
01:23:46,960 --> 01:23:53,760
years, I believe it says. Um how many
towns are you guys the kind of the

974
01:23:51,280 --> 01:23:58,480
primary town attorney for versus just
doing oneoff projects? So, kind of the

975
01:23:56,719 --> 01:24:01,679
same role that we're looking for here.
Um how many towns do you have that same

976
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:06,480
similar role?
>> So, for me, my primary town is the town

977
01:24:03,679 --> 01:24:10,400
of Prospect right now. So, we handle all
of their business. Um, we do have some

978
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:16,080
down in the eastern coast, I believe,
east line. We we handle that primarily

979
01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:21,199
for um I don't know off the top of my
head how many other communities we

980
01:24:18,239 --> 01:24:25,840
provide like full service legal for. A
lot of towns we will come in more as the

981
01:24:23,120 --> 01:24:30,880
specialty council because they do have
um a local town council or a corporation

982
01:24:28,320 --> 01:24:34,320
council that's captive um and only
representing that community because then

983
01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:36,880
we could bring in um a little bit more
depth

984
01:24:35,440 --> 01:24:40,080
» for for instance one of our attorneys
has been working

985
01:24:38,400 --> 01:24:44,159
» almost exclusively now for the last
three years with West Haven on all their

986
01:24:42,400 --> 01:24:48,560
ARPA that's a good point regul that
that's all he's been doing and he's been

987
01:24:45,920 --> 01:24:51,520
he's he's really the mayor calls him
directly doesn't even call the

988
01:24:49,679 --> 01:24:58,239
corporation council anymore. smoker. So
that's how involved he is. So it's it's

989
01:24:55,920 --> 01:25:06,000
so that's part of the the again the the
the depth of specialties that we have

990
01:25:01,280 --> 01:25:09,920
available that um uh
another attorney is on the Mberry

991
01:25:09,120 --> 01:25:14,639
» WPCA
>> WPCA. So um and so he and you know

992
01:25:13,040 --> 01:25:19,280
they're having all those issues about
development on straights turnpike and

993
01:25:16,320 --> 01:25:24,800
all and so he's he's on that uh serves
as the council for that commission. So

994
01:25:21,760 --> 01:25:27,440
um so we we we're aware of what the
issues are and we know how to deal with

995
01:25:26,159 --> 01:25:32,960
them. So thank you
>> through the chair. Thank you. So um

996
01:25:30,719 --> 01:25:39,199
Stephanie, my my dad voted for you once
upon a time. So uh nice nice to meet

997
01:25:35,120 --> 01:25:43,840
you. Absolutely. Um, and it sounds like
your firm is robust and and that has

998
01:25:41,600 --> 01:25:50,400
pros and cons though, right? And so one
of my concerns as I'm listening to you

999
01:25:46,080 --> 01:25:55,360
is um the the interaction between the
town attorney and the town manager and

1000
01:25:52,960 --> 01:26:01,280
the town council. It's it's relational,
right? and and so um I I want Mark to be

1001
01:25:59,199 --> 01:26:07,280
able to pick up the phone and know that
there's one go-to who's not only gonna

1002
01:26:04,480 --> 01:26:14,719
handle a case but give advice about
whether we should pursue that case,

1003
01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:21,679
» right? And and so um that to me is is
critically important because we're small

1004
01:26:18,719 --> 01:26:26,320
and we need that level of of of of
individualized service. So I hear you

1005
01:26:25,360 --> 01:26:28,159
talking about
>> Sure.

1006
01:26:26,800 --> 01:26:31,360
» but shrink it down for me.
>> Sure. So let me just use pro as an

1007
01:26:30,000 --> 01:26:35,360
example because that's the one I work
for most frequently. So the mayor has my

1008
01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:40,960
cell phone. He'll call me up on his cell
on my cell. But I'm not the best person

1009
01:26:38,880 --> 01:26:45,199
to do their labor negotiations. My
colleague is the best one. So you can

1010
01:26:43,199 --> 01:26:49,280
always contact me and I can always farm
to who who it needs to be. But I would

1011
01:26:47,600 --> 01:26:52,719
be doing you a disservice if I tried to
handle every single one of your matters

1012
01:26:51,040 --> 01:26:58,880
knowing that some of my colleagues know
the nuances of a particular field um

1013
01:26:55,600 --> 01:27:04,000
with more detail. I I that's just I
think the hallmark of good practitioners

1014
01:27:01,760 --> 01:27:07,679
is knowing where the limitations of your
knowledge lies and knowing that your

1015
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:12,320
colleague may be able to do it better.
So I think that by we would be I would

1016
01:27:10,719 --> 01:27:15,360
be the primary point of contact. You
would have my cell phone. You would know

1017
01:27:13,520 --> 01:27:19,199
how to get a hold of me. I have an
assistant that is there who can pick up

1018
01:27:16,880 --> 01:27:24,400
if if I am not picking up. But I do
anticipate that other relationships over

1019
01:27:21,920 --> 01:27:28,800
time would form where if there is a
collective bargaining, Matt, I use that

1020
01:27:25,760 --> 01:27:33,360
as it's an easy example. You would that
the town manager would call um the

1021
01:27:31,840 --> 01:27:37,920
person who's doing all of the labor
negotiations to cut out the essentially

1022
01:27:35,760 --> 01:27:43,120
to cut out the middleman. But certainly
I would not be expecting the town to try

1023
01:27:40,639 --> 01:27:48,960
to evaluate on its own who's the best
fit. You could always call what we call

1024
01:27:45,520 --> 01:27:52,719
in in our our internal nuances the
relationship manager. That's the person

1025
01:27:50,639 --> 01:27:58,159
that handles the relationship, but we
make sure the best expertise is handling

1026
01:27:55,120 --> 01:28:02,560
the individualized matter.
>> If I could follow up just for a second

1027
01:28:00,000 --> 01:28:08,800
on that on that question,
>> I understand that you want someone who

1028
01:28:05,360 --> 01:28:13,440
you can rely on for advice, but I think
it's important that you get the right

1029
01:28:10,159 --> 01:28:19,440
advice. So, um, you if you were to call
me about a zoning matter, I I don't do

1030
01:28:17,280 --> 01:28:24,719
zoning anymore. I haven't done zoning in
26 years. So, um, but I I know someone

1031
01:28:22,239 --> 01:28:28,960
in the firm who does zoning on a regular
basis. So, we can get whatever the issue

1032
01:28:26,960 --> 01:28:33,040
is, we can get that done and give you a,
you know, a specific answer that's and

1033
01:28:31,280 --> 01:28:36,560
it should be the correct answer, right?
>> So that you can make a a decision on how

1034
01:28:35,440 --> 01:28:38,880
you want to proceed.
>> And it's more cost- effective that way,

1035
01:28:37,920 --> 01:28:41,679
too. because if you know someone that
knows the answer, doesn't have to spend

1036
01:28:40,159 --> 01:28:45,360
five hours trying to figure out what was
the question and to to figure out the

1037
01:28:43,440 --> 01:28:48,719
answer. So that's, you know, that's
important, too.

1038
01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:53,120
» Thank you.
>> Mr. Chairman, may I I'm sorry. Did you

1039
01:28:51,120 --> 01:28:56,159
want to go?
>> I just and I'm getting ahead of the

1040
01:28:54,880 --> 01:29:00,080
council because we haven't had this
discussion yet, but we do have some

1041
01:28:57,600 --> 01:29:04,960
carveouts. One is actually labor and the
other one would be tax sales. Is Harmony

1042
01:29:03,199 --> 01:29:06,400
and Torrance willing to discuss those
carveouts?

1043
01:29:06,000 --> 01:29:10,719
» Sure.
>> Okay. Um, that's council's decisions

1044
01:29:09,440 --> 01:29:13,440
obviously, but we haven't had an
opportunity to actually talk about talk

1045
01:29:12,320 --> 01:29:16,960
through that yet.
>> We're here to support whatever the the

1046
01:29:15,040 --> 01:29:21,920
town's needs are. And those
relationships can evolve over time.

1047
01:29:18,800 --> 01:29:26,000
» And on that point, we discussed this,
you know, you know, in anticipation of

1048
01:29:23,760 --> 01:29:30,400
the meeting, we we would look at
something like the tax sales and all. I

1049
01:29:28,400 --> 01:29:35,600
I I don't think we would look at that as
a um an hourly rate case. I think those

1050
01:29:33,679 --> 01:29:41,280
would be like a flat fee. because those
are those are more um matters aren't as

1051
01:29:39,840 --> 01:29:44,239
complicated, but they just need to be
done. You need somebody they make sure

1052
01:29:42,880 --> 01:29:49,199
they get they get done. They get done
right. So we can make sure that those

1053
01:29:46,000 --> 01:29:54,880
are done on a more limited financial
basis. So So we won't be running up, you

1054
01:29:52,560 --> 01:29:58,400
know, 20 hours on a tax sale. It's just
that it would that'd be inconceivable

1055
01:29:56,400 --> 01:30:03,520
and it's not correct. It wouldn't be
proper representation.

1056
01:30:01,040 --> 01:30:10,960
» You pretty much answered the second
question. uh relative to

1057
01:30:07,360 --> 01:30:16,480
uh contact and the only part of that not
responded to was would you uh intend

1058
01:30:14,080 --> 01:30:20,320
council meetings or executive sessions?
>> Sure.

1059
01:30:17,120 --> 01:30:23,199
» If if the town wanted us to absolutely
you know it's it's about what does the

1060
01:30:21,679 --> 01:30:26,560
town want from us? If you don't want us
to attend, we don't attend. If you want

1061
01:30:24,719 --> 01:30:30,560
us to attend, we're happy to attend.
>> And it would would that be you or it

1062
01:30:28,880 --> 01:30:35,600
would be a person assigned for a
specific issue? It would likely be me

1063
01:30:33,679 --> 01:30:39,920
for a majority of the the commissions,
but we may also, you know, spread the

1064
01:30:38,239 --> 01:30:44,560
work out a little bit to give other
people um some of the work. Uh it

1065
01:30:42,480 --> 01:30:48,719
depends on like scheduling conflicts and
things of that nature. Um but yes,

1066
01:30:46,800 --> 01:30:54,800
somebody responsible who understands
would would be there. Well, and to to

1067
01:30:52,719 --> 01:30:59,520
add to that, just
on the assumption that you you indicate

1068
01:30:57,280 --> 01:31:01,920
that you would like someone to come to
the town council meeting because there's

1069
01:31:00,880 --> 01:31:03,760
a litigation matter,
>> right?

1070
01:31:02,400 --> 01:31:08,639
» Well,
>> you know, I could come, someone else

1071
01:31:06,400 --> 01:31:13,120
who's doing part of the litigation team
could come because we we have a better

1072
01:31:10,960 --> 01:31:17,920
understanding of how the court system
works and how cases proceed and and how

1073
01:31:16,480 --> 01:31:24,080
how they should be handled. So,
>> okay. Uh the next question is how do you

1074
01:31:21,760 --> 01:31:29,840
view the town attorney's role in
preventing legal problems rather than

1075
01:31:26,320 --> 01:31:35,679
reacting to them?
>> Um do you have any examples of helping a

1076
01:31:32,239 --> 01:31:41,679
municipality reduce legal or operating
risk before it became litigation?

1077
01:31:39,679 --> 01:31:44,639
» Certainly. So you know a lot of what we
do is counseling. So when they say

1078
01:31:43,120 --> 01:31:48,719
attorney and counselor at law they do
mean the counseling part. So there are

1079
01:31:46,320 --> 01:31:55,199
times where, you know, we can foresee
that an issue can become adversarial,

1080
01:31:51,520 --> 01:32:01,199
but we try to find a solution that um
gets the job done um without it having

1081
01:31:59,120 --> 01:32:06,000
to be a major issue. I see this a lot in
my land use practice of how can we be

1082
01:32:03,920 --> 01:32:11,679
creative, how can we get compliance
rather than necessarily forcing a suit.

1083
01:32:09,040 --> 01:32:14,480
sometimes and sometimes
that just has to be a suit. You know,

1084
01:32:13,199 --> 01:32:18,400
sometimes you're just not getting what
you need and unfortunately you have to

1085
01:32:16,080 --> 01:32:21,280
go that route. But we recognize and I
regularly tell folks, you need to be

1086
01:32:19,920 --> 01:32:25,840
very thoughtful if you want to bring
litigation because it's a long process

1087
01:32:23,280 --> 01:32:30,480
and it's extremely expensive. So there
are a lot of ways that we can work

1088
01:32:28,639 --> 01:32:33,360
through issues without it having to go
to the court system. That's not

1089
01:32:31,679 --> 01:32:36,719
necessarily the best resolution. And you
see, honestly, you see it a lot more in

1090
01:32:35,040 --> 01:32:40,400
practice, particularly with the what the
judge is doing these days. you see a lot

1091
01:32:38,159 --> 01:32:44,719
more mediations and arbitrations. So
that um latigious nature seems to be

1092
01:32:43,280 --> 01:32:48,080
shifting a little bit through times.
It's still important. It still plays a

1093
01:32:46,400 --> 01:32:52,080
role. Um but there are certainly a lot
of ways that we can try to find

1094
01:32:49,440 --> 01:32:55,920
solutions. Um if we identify, hey, you
know, this ordinance may need to be

1095
01:32:54,000 --> 01:32:59,199
updated. Um hey, there's something
coming from the state. You know, we give

1096
01:32:57,679 --> 01:33:04,719
that advice. Ultimately, it's your
decision of how you want to proceed um

1097
01:33:02,000 --> 01:33:09,520
based on what the town's needs are. Um,
but we we give advice and we my goal

1098
01:33:08,080 --> 01:33:13,120
always to make is always to make sure
that my clients feel that they've made

1099
01:33:10,880 --> 01:33:18,239
an educated decision. That's really what
I want for them.

1100
01:33:14,800 --> 01:33:23,760
» Okay. Um,
Watertown operates a water and sewer

1101
01:33:20,400 --> 01:33:29,920
authority and periodically faces complex
contractual regulatory financing and

1102
01:33:27,199 --> 01:33:35,440
intermunicipal issues.
uh what experience, if any, do you have

1103
01:33:32,639 --> 01:33:40,880
with municipal water and sewer matters
and how do you handle an issue outside

1104
01:33:38,000 --> 01:33:45,840
the regularly assigned attorney's
expertise?

1105
01:33:42,639 --> 01:33:49,840
» So our regular so a regularly assigned
attorney I think would be me but we

1106
01:33:47,440 --> 01:33:54,480
would always um you know look to our
bench to see who has that kind of

1107
01:33:51,440 --> 01:33:58,000
expertise in complicated contract issues
depending on what the nature of that

1108
01:33:55,840 --> 01:34:03,600
issue is. That's something that we, you
know, we ordinarily handle complex

1109
01:33:59,920 --> 01:34:08,080
issues. Um, you know, I'll give you a a
regulatory example. It's not water and

1110
01:34:05,760 --> 01:34:11,840
sewer, but there was I had a client that
had to get um had to go through the

1111
01:34:10,320 --> 01:34:15,600
cyphus process, which is the committee
on foreign investment in the United

1112
01:34:13,199 --> 01:34:20,080
States. So, we had to bring them through
a very complicated process um with the

1113
01:34:18,239 --> 01:34:25,280
federal government, with the DoD, with
other parties. So, complicated is not

1114
01:34:23,360 --> 01:34:31,679
scary for us. We're we're not afraid of
taking on a challenge. Um and water imu

1115
01:34:28,880 --> 01:34:35,679
uh we have as the judge mentioned we
have people that sit on WPCAS as their

1116
01:34:34,000 --> 01:34:42,639
legal council. So we do have experience
in looking at those um municipal

1117
01:34:39,440 --> 01:34:45,760
adjacent kind of um organizations. So
they're part of your or whether you're

1118
01:34:44,239 --> 01:34:51,600
part of your town but they have
different um obligations and guard rails

1119
01:34:49,040 --> 01:34:58,080
that they have to abide by. And I think
and it hasn't been pointed out but one

1120
01:34:54,480 --> 01:35:03,040
of our major clients is Eversource
good, bad or indifferent depending on

1121
01:34:59,600 --> 01:35:08,800
how you feel but we do exclusively we do
all their rate uh appeals. We do all

1122
01:35:05,920 --> 01:35:13,679
their other um uh representation before
the DPU. So we've got people who know

1123
01:35:11,280 --> 01:35:17,600
regulatory work very well. They're they
know how to deal with regulatory issues.

1124
01:35:16,000 --> 01:35:21,600
They know how to deal with contracts.
They you know there's there's people

1125
01:35:19,520 --> 01:35:26,480
that they're very they're very well
invested. There are I'm going to just

1126
01:35:24,560 --> 01:35:30,239
estimate but I I think there's at least
seven or eight people that just do

1127
01:35:27,679 --> 01:35:35,679
effort source work. That's how
well invested and we and they have an

1128
01:35:32,159 --> 01:35:39,760
inhouse staff of attorneys but they rely
on us to do a lot of the other work.

1129
01:35:38,159 --> 01:35:44,719
» I do contracts for hydroelectric
generation facilities. Um so similar

1130
01:35:42,560 --> 01:35:49,360
nature of that complex, you know, land
use and water use kind of issues.

1131
01:35:47,760 --> 01:35:53,280
» Um quick question just while we're on
the water and sewer area. Um obviously

1132
01:35:51,840 --> 01:35:57,199
you guys weren't involved at all with
our water um lawsuit, but I'm assuming

1133
01:35:56,080 --> 01:36:01,520
that you know
>> the only thing I'll say I was sitting as

1134
01:35:59,199 --> 01:36:05,440
a judge when that came in. So and I had
to recuse myself because I live in

1135
01:36:02,800 --> 01:36:10,719
Watertown. I pay I pay the water bill.
Um, just from kind of an outsider, is

1136
01:36:08,560 --> 01:36:15,520
there anything that you saw that the
town did that you guys might have done

1137
01:36:13,840 --> 01:36:21,679
something different that might have
result in a different outcome?

1138
01:36:18,880 --> 01:36:26,080
» I'll answer that. I mean, I I saw I saw
the case when it came in. I knew what

1139
01:36:23,440 --> 01:36:31,199
was what was happening. As I said, I had
to recuse myself and I had to I shifted

1140
01:36:28,400 --> 01:36:38,000
to other judges in the in the Waterbury
courthouse. Um,

1141
01:36:34,400 --> 01:36:43,120
I I I don't think it's fair for us to
comment on that. I I we we didn't go

1142
01:36:41,199 --> 01:36:47,440
through either any negotiations that
happened or go through the court case

1143
01:36:44,560 --> 01:36:51,199
and how it was presented. Um I you know
I know the Bill Stevens was one of my

1144
01:36:49,600 --> 01:36:58,320
dear friends and I know he had the case
before he passed away. Um and um and uh

1145
01:36:55,920 --> 01:37:04,159
you know I I thought the world of Bill.
He's I'm He was a very good friend of

1146
01:37:01,360 --> 01:37:09,440
mine. Uh I know it ended up having to be
far from down to outside council. I I I

1147
01:37:07,119 --> 01:37:13,360
just don't think it's fair for us to say
they did a good job. Bad job. I know you

1148
01:37:11,520 --> 01:37:20,560
were dealing with a very difficult
situation with Waterberry. Uh

1149
01:37:16,880 --> 01:37:27,600
Mayor Oir had a real
issue with wanting to stick Watertown, I

1150
01:37:23,920 --> 01:37:32,719
think. So uh I know and and that's that
he wasn't he wasn't negotiable and then

1151
01:37:29,679 --> 01:37:36,560
and so it had to be litigated but as far
as the litigation is concerned I don't

1152
01:37:34,159 --> 01:37:41,040
think we can comment about that.
>> How about any comments about going

1153
01:37:38,400 --> 01:37:45,199
forward with waterberry and contract
negotiation and things of that nature um

1154
01:37:44,239 --> 01:37:52,000
» going forward?
>> Yeah I I think it's necessary. I mean

1155
01:37:48,960 --> 01:37:57,360
what if we have to lose each other you
know I mean there's certain things that

1156
01:37:53,920 --> 01:38:01,280
I know that you know obviously the the
pipes go through water town I know we

1157
01:37:59,360 --> 01:38:05,600
have an we had an agreement at least
previously that

1158
01:38:03,600 --> 01:38:10,480
um that we were to maintain those we
were help maintaining the the uh pumping

1159
01:38:08,560 --> 01:38:15,360
facilities and all that. So I mean I
think we had we need each other

1160
01:38:13,119 --> 01:38:20,800
» they need us I think as much as we need
them you know.

1161
01:38:16,239 --> 01:38:24,639
» Absolutely. Um uh so um it's it's you
know it's unfortunate it got to the

1162
01:38:22,480 --> 01:38:31,280
point it got to and what happened but I
I don't I don't think either side can

1163
01:38:26,800 --> 01:38:35,199
just walk away you know so um
you know there's going to be a way to

1164
01:38:33,520 --> 01:38:39,920
start up there's a new administration
there's new people involved new people

1165
01:38:37,360 --> 01:38:44,800
in the corporation's office I think you
can we can start up a you know a line of

1166
01:38:43,280 --> 01:38:49,199
communication to see how that would work
to to try to work out something that is

1167
01:38:47,119 --> 01:38:51,920
favorable to to both parties. I mean,
that's still Yeah.

1168
01:38:50,400 --> 01:38:55,199
» And having a good relationship with
corporation council to be able to to

1169
01:38:53,679 --> 01:38:58,239
call and to be able to say, "Hey, can I
get on your calendar to have a

1170
01:38:56,400 --> 01:39:03,520
conversation?" I think that that does go
a long way, you know, in that

1171
01:38:59,840 --> 01:39:06,880
relationship sense of, you know, we're
not representing them, but it doesn't

1172
01:39:05,280 --> 01:39:11,360
mean that we're not seeing them as we
walk to the dry cleaners or as we, you

1173
01:39:09,280 --> 01:39:14,480
know, I I when I chaired charter
revision, corporation council was

1174
01:39:13,040 --> 01:39:18,320
involved. So, we've developed a
relationship

1175
01:39:16,000 --> 01:39:22,159
um where we're colleagues in the legal
field. So, it's good to have those

1176
01:39:20,320 --> 01:39:26,239
people that you can contact even if
they're not representing them.

1177
01:39:24,320 --> 01:39:30,159
» Thank you.
through the chair. Sir, with all due

1178
01:39:28,480 --> 01:39:34,719
respect, twice you mentioned that you
have attorneys um in the next room

1179
01:39:32,639 --> 01:39:39,199
working on a project for yourself. Is
that correct?

1180
01:39:35,840 --> 01:39:42,320
» No. No. My builder's next door on an
inland wetlands issue. Mark Lovely.

1181
01:39:41,840 --> 01:39:45,760
» Okay.
>> I'm I'm building in the development up

1182
01:39:44,320 --> 01:39:47,520
in Palm View
>> in Watertown.

1183
01:39:46,639 --> 01:39:49,440
» Yeah, in Watertown.
>> Okay. And so that

1184
01:39:48,400 --> 01:39:54,800
» I'm not moving out of town.
>> You're not moving out of town. Okay.

1185
01:39:51,760 --> 01:39:59,440
That's actually my question would be um
could there be a conflict of interest

1186
01:39:57,040 --> 01:40:04,320
being representative with you know if
you have such a big project or

1187
01:40:02,080 --> 01:40:07,520
» I I don't represent Mark we don't
represent he has his own council he has

1188
01:40:06,960 --> 01:40:12,960
his own attorney
>> who's building yourself or

1189
01:40:09,199 --> 01:40:16,719
» no m is developing that you know he upon
view he's you know part of that is

1190
01:40:14,400 --> 01:40:22,800
lovely drive and all that there's a a
section there he's building a 55 and

1191
01:40:19,679 --> 01:40:27,520
older community. It was approved and and
so he's built I contracted for him to

1192
01:40:25,760 --> 01:40:28,719
build build a house for me.
>> Okay.

1193
01:40:27,840 --> 01:40:32,159
» And the wetland I don't think the
wetlands application has anything to do.

1194
01:40:30,480 --> 01:40:34,560
We happen to see them in the hallway.
>> I just saw him in the hallway. I just

1195
01:40:33,360 --> 01:40:36,480
mentioned it because I said, you know,
it's just coincidence.

1196
01:40:35,280 --> 01:40:40,480
» Thank you. Because it was mentioned
twice while you were here. So I just

1197
01:40:38,639 --> 01:40:45,840
» Yeah. No, no. I'm just saying he's he's
you know, he's here. So we know but I

1198
01:40:43,040 --> 01:40:50,159
I'm I'm aware of what again we're aware
of the issues that are he's he's dealing

1199
01:40:48,480 --> 01:40:50,960
with but he has his own attorney for
that.

1200
01:40:50,560 --> 01:40:54,159
» Thank you.
>> We we don't represent him.

1201
01:40:52,320 --> 01:40:56,960
» Okay.
>> Okay. So next question. I think you've

1202
01:40:55,520 --> 01:41:00,639
touched on a lot of this but I'll just
read through this. If there's anything

1203
01:40:58,080 --> 01:41:04,639
else you feel you should add please do.
>> Because your firm represents other

1204
01:41:02,159 --> 01:41:09,440
municipalities and public entities. How
will you identify and manage potential

1205
01:41:06,880 --> 01:41:13,360
conflicts involving Watertown? If a
conflict preventing your firm from

1206
01:41:11,360 --> 01:41:17,199
handling a significant matter, how would
you help the town maintain continuity of

1207
01:41:15,600 --> 01:41:23,280
representation?
So I think we've described the conflict

1208
01:41:20,080 --> 01:41:27,760
check process and then so if we were to
identify a conflict that was not

1209
01:41:26,080 --> 01:41:32,639
waveable, which means that we have to
refer out. What we like to do is

1210
01:41:30,560 --> 01:41:37,440
identify who we think would be a good
fit and then we bring them up to speed

1211
01:41:35,040 --> 01:41:41,760
and then we hand off and we we you know
feel free to consult with us. to to get

1212
01:41:39,199 --> 01:41:44,880
the facts, the information, but we know
our clients, so we know like who's going

1213
01:41:43,360 --> 01:41:48,960
to be a good personality fit, who's
going to be a good knowledge base fit,

1214
01:41:47,280 --> 01:41:52,320
um, and who's going to take care of them
because we want to make sure we refer

1215
01:41:51,040 --> 01:41:55,600
you to somebody, we want to make sure
that they're going to do a good job

1216
01:41:53,360 --> 01:42:00,800
because it's a reflection on us. Um, if
it's a wavable conflict, what we do is

1217
01:41:57,920 --> 01:42:05,920
we say to to, you know, the town, this
is what the potentials are. here's what

1218
01:42:03,520 --> 01:42:10,719
we would do if it becomes adversarial
and no longer in this hypothetical

1219
01:42:08,320 --> 01:42:14,800
situation. And that's all part of a
written agreement that both parties have

1220
01:42:12,480 --> 01:42:19,360
to sign. So it can't be unilateral. So
if we were to have a conflict that was

1221
01:42:17,199 --> 01:42:24,320
waveable, we get conflict waiverss from
both sides. those go in the file and

1222
01:42:22,239 --> 01:42:27,760
then if something you know if it gets to
a different point that we did not

1223
01:42:25,600 --> 01:42:33,360
anticipate and we really do try to
anticipate you know what is practical

1224
01:42:30,880 --> 01:42:37,360
and and what is possible in going to
happen you could spend I love going down

1225
01:42:35,760 --> 01:42:41,679
a rabbit hole it's just the way my brain
works but you can't do you can't predict

1226
01:42:40,000 --> 01:42:45,280
every single thing that could happen you
try to look at what is probable in a

1227
01:42:44,080 --> 01:42:49,440
situation
>> I don't want to get far down in a case

1228
01:42:47,280 --> 01:42:52,800
and have there be a problem because it's
just not good for my client and that's

1229
01:42:50,880 --> 01:42:57,440
not that doesn't look good for us like
that doesn't feel good. So if we do you

1230
01:42:55,440 --> 01:43:01,440
know anticipate a problem
>> we refer out at the beginning so there

1231
01:42:59,280 --> 01:43:05,360
can be continuity there. Um if we really
don't anticipate a problem we get the

1232
01:43:03,040 --> 01:43:10,719
waiverss and we proceed and you know
most of the time it it's fine.

1233
01:43:08,159 --> 01:43:15,040
» Thank you.
>> Okay. So beyond your hourly rates and

1234
01:43:12,800 --> 01:43:18,639
fee structure what practices would you
use to control the town's legal

1235
01:43:16,960 --> 01:43:22,239
expenses?
How would you flag a matter that's

1236
01:43:20,159 --> 01:43:26,560
becoming more costly than anticipated
and what billing detail and periodic

1237
01:43:24,480 --> 01:43:32,320
reporting would the town receive?
>> So that we bill on a monthly basis. So

1238
01:43:29,840 --> 01:43:38,400
we track our time on a daily basis. We
put it all into a system. So the town

1239
01:43:35,199 --> 01:43:42,320
would get very all of our billing comes
in with the how much time we have spent

1240
01:43:40,239 --> 01:43:45,760
and exactly what we were doing on that
and then you would get monthly invoices.

1241
01:43:44,239 --> 01:43:49,440
So you'd be able to see what is
happening. the way that we like to

1242
01:43:47,920 --> 01:43:54,080
write. So you could have like a general
matter. So for example, um an inland's

1243
01:43:52,400 --> 01:43:58,719
wetlands commission matter, a planning
and zoning commission matter, a town

1244
01:43:56,000 --> 01:44:03,600
council matter, and we would build to
those. So you could kind of keep track

1245
01:44:00,239 --> 01:44:07,600
of which um committee is taking up a lot
of your budgetary monies. Um, again

1246
01:44:05,920 --> 01:44:12,159
talking about the chain of command, like
that's going to be important for us to

1247
01:44:09,040 --> 01:44:17,280
understand as to who has authority to
ask for us to commit legal services

1248
01:44:15,920 --> 01:44:23,119
because once they're committed, they're
they're build. Um, so if there and if we

1249
01:44:20,719 --> 01:44:27,199
did identify a matter that was kind of
turning from the ordinary to something

1250
01:44:24,960 --> 01:44:30,560
that was unique, we could talk about
engaging in a separate matter for that,

1251
01:44:29,040 --> 01:44:34,080
which would be a separate billing code.
You'd get a separate matter and

1252
01:44:32,159 --> 01:44:36,560
developing a budget for what that looks
like.

1253
01:44:37,760 --> 01:44:44,880
Okay.
>> How often do we get report?

1254
01:44:41,840 --> 01:44:49,520
» How often would we get a outside of the
billing um say an open

1255
01:44:48,639 --> 01:44:53,920
» um stat
>> a status report on on what's occurring

1256
01:44:53,199 --> 01:44:55,840
» every month.
>> Oh,

1257
01:44:54,159 --> 01:44:57,840
» we send out bills every single month.
>> Yeah.

1258
01:44:56,080 --> 01:45:00,880
» So, we have one. So, typically the way
that it's handled is like the

1259
01:44:58,960 --> 01:45:05,119
relationship when we set up a new
matter, we have a relationship person, a

1260
01:45:03,119 --> 01:45:09,760
billing person, um, and then an
originating person. So, the there's one

1261
01:45:07,600 --> 01:45:15,040
partner that's looking at all of the
billing. Um, so we we review our bills

1262
01:45:13,119 --> 01:45:19,199
each month to make sure that there's
nothing that needs to be like that's an

1263
01:45:17,600 --> 01:45:23,199
associate spend too much time. I write
that down before I send it out. for

1264
01:45:21,119 --> 01:45:27,440
example, um during the course of the
year, do you you give us a list of the

1265
01:45:25,920 --> 01:45:33,040
open
situations or claims or litigation that

1266
01:45:31,199 --> 01:45:37,600
you're handling so we know we've got
five lawsuits and and two appeals or if

1267
01:45:36,560 --> 01:45:42,000
that's something that you wanted to have
a certain check-in point? Absolutely. Um

1268
01:45:40,320 --> 01:45:46,320
you know, typically your litigation
matters would be a separate billing

1269
01:45:43,840 --> 01:45:50,400
matter. Um so we could, you know, those
would be tracked separately so you could

1270
01:45:48,080 --> 01:45:53,840
you could see what that's looking like.
Um, but yes, we would be checking in

1271
01:45:52,159 --> 01:45:58,560
with you to make sure that you know in
the in the stratosphere what contracts

1272
01:45:56,639 --> 01:46:01,679
do you have that are still ongoing? You
know, are you running close on what we

1273
01:46:00,320 --> 01:46:05,600
think your budget is? You know, in
looking at, for example, in looking at

1274
01:46:03,440 --> 01:46:12,800
your budget, um, I noticed that you have
primarily one line item for your um, for

1275
01:46:10,239 --> 01:46:16,480
for legal and then it's it all of your
commissions are kind of pulling out of

1276
01:46:14,400 --> 01:46:22,320
that amount. So, one thing we may think
about is do we want to have Okay. um

1277
01:46:20,800 --> 01:46:25,280
inlands, wetlands, like this is what
your enforcement budget is going to be.

1278
01:46:24,080 --> 01:46:29,679
Then you have to come and ask for a
different line item shift so that you

1279
01:46:26,560 --> 01:46:33,119
could kind of control them more on a
department basis rather than just having

1280
01:46:31,600 --> 01:46:36,960
one line item. So there's there's
different ways to try to handle it. Um

1281
01:46:35,440 --> 01:46:42,960
but there always does come this like
push and pull of the one commission

1282
01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:47,360
wants to do something but then it there
someone's got to pay for it. So there's

1283
01:46:44,719 --> 01:46:51,199
always that responsibility.
>> Mr. Chairman, just so you know, the

1284
01:46:49,119 --> 01:46:55,040
policy of the town has always been that
any department head or commission should

1285
01:46:52,960 --> 01:46:58,719
go through the town manager's office
before it gets to the town attorney.

1286
01:46:57,040 --> 01:47:02,639
That way we could keep an understanding
because as pointed out, we do it track

1287
01:47:01,280 --> 01:47:06,719
it through one line item.
>> Council members too, I think we need to

1288
01:47:04,560 --> 01:47:11,360
say since we have new council people,
>> yes,

1289
01:47:07,679 --> 01:47:14,880
» no council person can can call them
>> and it's just really for fiscal, you

1290
01:47:13,280 --> 01:47:19,040
know, being fiscally responsible, that's
all.

1291
01:47:16,639 --> 01:47:22,280
Sure.
Can you make mic?

1292
01:47:22,719 --> 01:47:30,560
» I come from a structured
environment where I previously worked

1293
01:47:28,800 --> 01:47:38,560
and I don't want to call it the chain of
command that who would directly be able

1294
01:47:34,000 --> 01:47:44,239
to reach out to you in your firm about
legal advice.

1295
01:47:40,239 --> 01:47:50,800
» I'd like to limit that. town manager,
the chair, vice chair. It can't be a

1296
01:47:47,119 --> 01:47:55,600
hodgepodge of people just contacting you
to get advice before we go further.

1297
01:47:53,600 --> 01:47:59,119
» Right. So you right now
>> right now your charter says that we're

1298
01:47:57,199 --> 01:48:03,679
representing and it's true we do
represent the town manager, we represent

1299
01:48:01,040 --> 01:48:07,280
the the the town council, all of the
commissions. But that's why, you know,

1300
01:48:05,520 --> 01:48:13,600
we were saying it's important for us to
figure out what who are we authorized to

1301
01:48:10,320 --> 01:48:18,880
deal with regularly so that we know what
that chain of command is going to be so

1302
01:48:16,800 --> 01:48:23,280
that if we do get an errant phone call,
I then call Mark and say, "Hey, do you

1303
01:48:21,440 --> 01:48:25,920
want me to do this?" Like, and he may
say, "Oh, yeah. I just forgot to give

1304
01:48:24,639 --> 01:48:30,560
you a call. Can you, you know, go
ahead." Um, but that's all part of the

1305
01:48:28,800 --> 01:48:35,360
relationship building and figuring out
what do you what is your expectation of

1306
01:48:32,480 --> 01:48:38,719
us and what who are we expecting to hear
from

1307
01:48:37,360 --> 01:48:44,159
» through the chair.
>> Just follow up in the in the same vein.

1308
01:48:40,639 --> 01:48:51,280
Um, so
then when you're providing legal advice,

1309
01:48:48,239 --> 01:48:56,880
um, my assumption is based on the
structures that you're talking about is

1310
01:48:53,280 --> 01:49:02,239
that it's always going to be written.
Will it ever be verbal?

1311
01:49:00,080 --> 01:49:05,600
» Yeah, absolutely. Depends on the sever
like it depends on what you're looking

1312
01:49:03,600 --> 01:49:09,679
for. Do you need something? Do you need
a memorandum that has like a lot more

1313
01:49:07,679 --> 01:49:13,280
depth to it that we anticipate, you
know, is going to be disseminated for

1314
01:49:11,360 --> 01:49:16,880
other people's use? Is it just a, hey, I
want to run this by you? Do you think

1315
01:49:15,360 --> 01:49:19,360
that this this course of action is
right? Yeah, I think that that you

1316
01:49:18,159 --> 01:49:23,840
totally think you're right on track.
Okay, talk to you later. Um, so it

1317
01:49:21,440 --> 01:49:27,360
depends on the severity of the issue and
to what purpose is the advice going to

1318
01:49:26,239 --> 01:49:32,239
be used for.
>> Great. And and and thanks for clarifying

1319
01:49:29,119 --> 01:49:37,040
that. And uh um I I guess if there's a
if there's a long-standing issue that um

1320
01:49:35,199 --> 01:49:41,679
the town is dealing with for multiple
years, um should we expect to find

1321
01:49:39,840 --> 01:49:44,080
written documentation of advice on that
issue?

1322
01:49:42,400 --> 01:49:48,239
» I would imagine so. Yeah. You know, so
for example, like if I'm doing a title

1323
01:49:46,000 --> 01:49:52,880
issue, sometimes it's really hard for me
just to have a conversation and say and

1324
01:49:50,159 --> 01:49:56,080
then back in a legitimate one back in
1800, you know, this person conveyed to

1325
01:49:54,800 --> 01:49:59,679
this person and then this person died
and then it went to these two heirs and

1326
01:49:57,600 --> 01:50:04,239
then out. So it those things like are
easier to track in writing. So we we we

1327
01:50:02,239 --> 01:50:08,639
use our professional judgment as to what
the best manner in which to deliver the

1328
01:50:06,639 --> 01:50:12,080
advice is. And then sometimes they say,
"Hey, can you put that in a memo for us

1329
01:50:10,320 --> 01:50:17,760
so that we can, you know, share it with
the council." Okay. And we send it out.

1330
01:50:15,920 --> 01:50:20,880
Um you know, we also have to think about
what's privileged and what is not and

1331
01:50:19,520 --> 01:50:24,159
not breaching the attorney client
confidentiality provisions. So, we

1332
01:50:23,119 --> 01:50:28,159
would, you know, if it's something
that's going to be legal advice,

1333
01:50:26,239 --> 01:50:32,480
strategy decisions, we would be marking
it attorney client confidentiality, you

1334
01:50:30,400 --> 01:50:36,719
know, attorney work product. If it's
something that you're intending to

1335
01:50:34,159 --> 01:50:40,639
disseminate to, you got an inquiry from
the public that you're trying to respond

1336
01:50:38,400 --> 01:50:45,520
to and that you're asking for a legal
opinion on, then we would, you know,

1337
01:50:43,199 --> 01:50:49,360
what goes out is not necessarily all of
the the legal advice. Like, that's

1338
01:50:46,960 --> 01:50:52,800
that's held in the tree of trust. So, it
depends on what we're what we're doing.

1339
01:50:51,360 --> 01:50:55,840
you you're the client,
>> right?

1340
01:50:53,280 --> 01:51:01,040
» So, we're we're going to do whatever we
can to satisfy whatever you your needs

1341
01:50:59,119 --> 01:51:04,719
are and what your requests are. If you
need a memorandum that you need to share

1342
01:51:02,880 --> 01:51:08,800
with all the members of the council
about an issue that's coming up before

1343
01:51:06,239 --> 01:51:12,800
the council, we will obviously meet with
you, discuss how what we what you need,

1344
01:51:11,520 --> 01:51:18,080
prepare it, so you will have it
available for everyone to to digest. If

1345
01:51:15,520 --> 01:51:23,199
it's a question of can does this seem
like we we can do or can't do and we can

1346
01:51:21,199 --> 01:51:27,119
just give you a verbal answer. Well, we
we can get back to you with a verbal

1347
01:51:24,719 --> 01:51:31,840
answer if that's all you require. Um
we're not going to do extra work just to

1348
01:51:29,119 --> 01:51:36,639
bill you. That's not that's not not what
we're trying to do, you know. Um again,

1349
01:51:34,639 --> 01:51:40,800
we're we're cognizant it's it's a
municipality.

1350
01:51:38,560 --> 01:51:47,119
» We're running late on time.
How are your phones build out to us

1351
01:51:45,040 --> 01:51:51,440
every phone call? So Mark just called
you up and said, "Hey, am I on a right

1352
01:51:49,119 --> 01:51:56,239
path with this?" Is that build out right
away that month? That question

1353
01:51:54,480 --> 01:52:00,480
» just a small little question.
>> It depends. It depends on how much time.

1354
01:51:58,320 --> 01:52:05,840
So we are we do bill by the hour. I'll
be 100% transparent with you. We track

1355
01:52:02,960 --> 01:52:10,320
everything in traditional law firm
sense. So we we bill to the six. So

1356
01:52:08,400 --> 01:52:13,760
every six minutes. But if it's a quick
phone call, sometimes we don't. But if

1357
01:52:12,320 --> 01:52:17,920
it's, you know, a half an hour phone
call, yeah, that's going to that's going

1358
01:52:15,440 --> 01:52:22,159
to get because these are this is this is
still our profession. Um, but we try to

1359
01:52:20,320 --> 01:52:26,639
be judicious about like I don't bill for
opening the mail, right? Like there's

1360
01:52:24,960 --> 01:52:30,719
there's administrative tasks that we do
that we just anticipate having to do.

1361
01:52:28,880 --> 01:52:35,040
Um, you know, if I reply to a quick
email, I don't necessarily bill that

1362
01:52:32,239 --> 01:52:39,760
unless I'm getting 10 little emails in a
day, then I'm going to bill that.

1363
01:52:37,520 --> 01:52:44,800
» Thank you.
Okay. Municipal legal matters often span

1364
01:52:42,639 --> 01:52:49,360
years and personnel changes. What
systems and practices would your firm

1365
01:52:46,960 --> 01:52:53,920
use to document legal advice, key
decisions, open matters, and historical

1366
01:52:51,840 --> 01:52:58,800
context so Watertown preserves
institutional memory? How would you

1367
01:52:56,159 --> 01:53:02,719
ensure a clean handoff if the assigned
attorney changes or the engagement ends

1368
01:53:00,960 --> 01:53:06,800
while appropriately protecting
privileged and confidential matters? So,

1369
01:53:05,040 --> 01:53:12,400
we have a very sophisticated client
management system. Um so each client is

1370
01:53:09,760 --> 01:53:17,440
assigned a client number and then each
matter is assigned a specific matter

1371
01:53:14,400 --> 01:53:22,320
number and that number lives with the
client irrespective of of who the

1372
01:53:19,599 --> 01:53:26,639
attorney assigned to it is. So if I want
to look up you know like historically

1373
01:53:24,080 --> 01:53:30,880
the the ones that have been with the
firm for since its inception are four

1374
01:53:29,520 --> 01:53:35,679
digits. They're now like up to six
digits. So they're just n they're just

1375
01:53:32,560 --> 01:53:41,840
numerical identifiers. And then we have
a we have a whole IT team. We have um

1376
01:53:38,960 --> 01:53:48,239
ongoing training um that we all have to
conduct annually. Um they also do um

1377
01:53:46,239 --> 01:53:51,679
routine testing of us like they send us
fishing emails to see if we'll click on

1378
01:53:49,920 --> 01:53:56,000
them and if you get on the naughty list
you have to take retraining. Um so we do

1379
01:53:53,920 --> 01:54:01,440
take we have a lot of institutional like
banking institutional clients as well.

1380
01:53:57,920 --> 01:54:07,840
So we we our systems are designed for
the most restrictive um in protecting

1381
01:54:05,440 --> 01:54:12,560
personal identifying information,
healthc care records, those kinds of

1382
01:54:09,679 --> 01:54:17,520
things. So our client management system
um is a cloud-based software that we we

1383
01:54:15,840 --> 01:54:21,760
save our emails, we can save our
voicemails, all of our memorandums, our

1384
01:54:20,000 --> 01:54:26,239
motions, all of those things to one
system. Um and then that carries

1385
01:54:23,840 --> 01:54:31,040
forward. So even when a matter is
closed, uh we send things off site and

1386
01:54:29,599 --> 01:54:35,040
we retain them for the appropriate
amount of time. We also have that

1387
01:54:32,800 --> 01:54:40,159
digital footprint too. So I can go in
and look at, you know, items that were

1388
01:54:38,080 --> 01:54:45,679
from far before I started practicing
law. I can also recall items. Um, we we

1389
01:54:43,840 --> 01:54:49,920
tend to save things like mapping,
charters, those kinds of we I don't know

1390
01:54:48,239 --> 01:54:54,320
if we would necessarily save every
single motion from a multi-year

1391
01:54:51,840 --> 01:54:59,360
litigation case after this requisite
period of time. Um, but we do have all

1392
01:54:57,040 --> 01:55:04,000
of that knowledge in the system. Um, I
just did a a real estate transaction

1393
01:55:01,280 --> 01:55:08,560
where I went years back and found some
very old title work that had been done.

1394
01:55:06,719 --> 01:55:13,679
Um, and it was extremely helpful, but it
was probably 15 years old. So we have a

1395
01:55:11,440 --> 01:55:16,480
system that we can document it all um
that we maintain

1396
01:55:14,960 --> 01:55:21,520
» but everything that goes out of our
office is stored in that document

1397
01:55:19,760 --> 01:55:26,080
preservation system. So
>> it does it doesn't get purged until a

1398
01:55:24,560 --> 01:55:30,000
matter is going to be closed and is
determined what needs to be saved.

1399
01:55:28,080 --> 01:55:36,199
» But I'll give you another real quick
example. I was involved in a very um uh

1400
01:55:36,560 --> 01:55:43,360
I was appointed by a bankruptcy court to
review

1401
01:55:40,560 --> 01:55:50,480
um sexual assault claims against the
dasis of of uh of Norwich. Everything

1402
01:55:47,840 --> 01:55:55,040
there was confidential and we have
firewalls and all that. No one can see

1403
01:55:52,560 --> 01:56:02,000
that what I what the things I looked at
all the documents I had, you know, uh

1404
01:55:58,719 --> 01:56:08,719
victim statements. I I had to go and
interview all the victims. several were

1405
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:11,840
in prison that um and all all that's no
one can find out because we have a

1406
01:56:10,400 --> 01:56:16,719
document preservation system. We have
firewalls and all that anything that's

1407
01:56:14,880 --> 01:56:21,360
confidential will never get
>> exposed. We can lock a matter internally

1408
01:56:19,679 --> 01:56:24,800
so that like an assistant can't go like
there are matters that are locked that

1409
01:56:22,800 --> 01:56:28,080
you can't even see in a search if
they're of such a sensitive nature.

1410
01:56:26,480 --> 01:56:31,119
Generally speaking like if if I want to
look for a template I can go in and be

1411
01:56:29,360 --> 01:56:36,480
like hey some you know Patrick created a
great template. Thank you. Um so we do

1412
01:56:33,520 --> 01:56:42,080
have it but we can tailor what kind of
security measures need to be associated

1413
01:56:38,880 --> 01:56:47,599
with a particular file
>> through the chair. Um with all that

1414
01:56:45,599 --> 01:56:52,239
security the question I would have is
have you ever had a data breach and if

1415
01:56:49,360 --> 01:56:56,239
so has any sensitive information been
you know stolen?

1416
01:56:54,560 --> 01:57:01,040
» Not that I'm aware of. We actually do
have there's a one of our partners is

1417
01:56:58,239 --> 01:57:08,080
Sherwin Yoder and he is the data breach
guy. So he actually provides a lot of

1418
01:57:04,239 --> 01:57:11,760
advice to um data prevention uh data
breach prevention and then how to react

1419
01:57:09,920 --> 01:57:15,119
to it if there is a data breach like
what do you need to do those compliance

1420
01:57:13,440 --> 01:57:19,760
rules um the European ones the
California ones um you know the the new

1421
01:57:18,000 --> 01:57:24,960
AI rules that are coming. So we have
someone that specializes in that um that

1422
01:57:22,400 --> 01:57:30,239
does facilitate. So a lot the way the
partnership works is like the people who

1423
01:57:26,560 --> 01:57:34,400
have um specialized expertise often help
in management decisions as to what kind

1424
01:57:32,320 --> 01:57:39,360
of protocols need to be implemented. So
not only do we have a full-time IT team

1425
01:57:36,960 --> 01:57:44,000
with a lead and then the staffing, we
have an attorney who specializes in

1426
01:57:41,760 --> 01:57:48,080
regulatory compliance with data breach
and resolution. Sarof,

1427
01:57:45,840 --> 01:57:50,400
» how many attorneys are in this? Uh
>> 90 about 90

1428
01:57:49,760 --> 01:57:55,360
» 19
>> 90

1429
01:57:51,040 --> 01:57:58,080
» 90 okay it sounds big it really does
>> not 90 in water we're spread out through

1430
01:57:56,960 --> 01:58:02,239
I don't we you know we
>> No no no I know throughout Connecticut

1431
01:57:59,760 --> 01:58:09,040
but I mean it was mentioned before it's
almost on a it it's just seems large and

1432
01:58:06,560 --> 01:58:16,719
and personal almost a little bit not to
offend you but in the course of action

1433
01:58:12,400 --> 01:58:21,520
if somebody you know uh uh reaching out
to you specifically or you had mentioned

1434
01:58:19,040 --> 01:58:26,320
at some point there was a uh relations
manager and you know it just it just

1435
01:58:24,320 --> 01:58:30,719
seems so large.
>> You you you may feel like you're a small

1436
01:58:28,719 --> 01:58:32,560
town but you got a very large budget.
That's a lot of

1437
01:58:31,440 --> 01:58:36,719
» I know I'm well aware of that.
>> You know so it's it's not a oneman I

1438
01:58:35,440 --> 01:58:40,159
don't think it's a oneman operation
anymore that you can rely on to for

1439
01:58:38,480 --> 01:58:42,000
representation. It just that's the
nature of the beast at this point.

1440
01:58:41,599 --> 01:58:46,880
» Yeah.
>> You know there's and there's so many

1441
01:58:43,520 --> 01:58:53,040
areas that you're involved in.
basis you get live requests you get you

1442
01:58:49,599 --> 01:58:59,280
know as I said you you name it labor
issues

1443
01:58:54,719 --> 01:59:03,520
uh tax issues you know u there's just
and one person can't do all that there

1444
01:59:01,280 --> 01:59:07,599
there's the jack of all trades and
master of none is not going to be a good

1445
01:59:05,840 --> 01:59:10,880
fit for you you know
>> not whether you whether you use us or

1446
01:59:09,199 --> 01:59:16,239
not doesn't matter but I think it's it's
hard to I think to be

1447
01:59:13,920 --> 01:59:19,280
you know one man one man shop to do this
type of stuff. There's just just there's

1448
01:59:17,599 --> 01:59:20,880
too much involved. You can't know it
all.

1449
01:59:20,159 --> 01:59:22,560
» Absolutely.
>> Yeah.

1450
01:59:21,520 --> 01:59:26,320
» Absolutely.
>> You know, and you know, I know I know as

1451
01:59:24,320 --> 01:59:30,239
a judge I had things that come came
before me. I mean, thank God I had, you

1452
01:59:28,239 --> 01:59:34,239
know, I had the uh you know, research
clerks and all that could find stuff,

1453
01:59:31,760 --> 01:59:39,599
but there was things that
first impression to me anyway. So, um

1454
01:59:37,199 --> 01:59:44,880
you know, you you're just But if you
have the resources, you can handle it.

1455
01:59:43,119 --> 01:59:50,239
I have one specific question and then
one last uh general question to wrap up.

1456
01:59:48,159 --> 01:59:53,920
So based on your review of Watertown's
needs, what do you see as the most

1457
01:59:52,080 --> 01:59:58,480
important responsibilities of the town
attorney? And how would your firm

1458
01:59:56,239 --> 02:00:01,520
approach serving the council, town
manager, boards, commissions, and

1459
02:00:00,719 --> 02:00:05,679
departments?
>> Sure. So I think the most frequent need

1460
02:00:04,560 --> 02:00:09,360
that you're going to have are just
various items that are coming before

1461
02:00:07,119 --> 02:00:12,159
your various commissions and guidance,
particularly as the state statutes

1462
02:00:10,719 --> 02:00:16,960
change. you know, for example,
regulatory changes that are required by

1463
02:00:14,239 --> 02:00:20,480
the state in order to be compliant. Um,
you know, the state says you must, you

1464
02:00:18,639 --> 02:00:24,239
know, amend your uh zoning regulations
in order to allow middle transit

1465
02:00:22,159 --> 02:00:26,800
housing. We have to do those things. So,
it's more of like the day-to-day

1466
02:00:25,440 --> 02:00:29,679
management stuff that I think is going
to be your most pressing need because

1467
02:00:28,560 --> 02:00:32,080
that's just going to be what's most
frequent.

1468
02:00:30,320 --> 02:00:35,280
» Um, so making sure that, you know, are
do you have your quorum done right? Like

1469
02:00:33,679 --> 02:00:38,639
are you getting your minutes up on time?
Like those day-to-day things that can

1470
02:00:36,639 --> 02:00:42,400
cause bigger problems. That is what I
see as the the most important thing to

1471
02:00:40,719 --> 02:00:45,840
get underway. And then you have the
one-off issues. You've got, you know,

1472
02:00:43,840 --> 02:00:49,760
your contracts. You've got, you know,
you've got your municipal golf course

1473
02:00:47,760 --> 02:00:53,040
that has contracts. I think your Sunset
Girl is going to run in 2027. So, you

1474
02:00:51,360 --> 02:00:57,280
have those like oneoff contract
negotiations. Um, the water deal, which

1475
02:00:55,840 --> 02:01:00,639
you have council on. I don't know if you
would be expecting that us to take that

1476
02:00:58,960 --> 02:01:06,080
over. We would be, you know, more than
happy to do so. Um, so there's those are

1477
02:01:04,400 --> 02:01:08,800
more of the oneoff things, but really
you're going to want to call us up and

1478
02:01:07,199 --> 02:01:14,080
be like, "Hey, we have a problem. What
do we do here?" And that's really what I

1479
02:01:10,719 --> 02:01:17,520
see the most relationship part as being.
>> Okay.

1480
02:01:15,679 --> 02:01:22,000
Finally, is there anything we haven't
asked you that you think the council

1481
02:01:19,360 --> 02:01:27,520
should know?
>> Don't think so. Look at all the notes.

1482
02:01:26,320 --> 02:01:32,000
» Oh, I do have a question. So, the
volunteer fire department is a separate

1483
02:01:29,360 --> 02:01:36,159
501c3 entity, but it's funded primarily
by the town. Would you be anticipating

1484
02:01:34,639 --> 02:01:39,440
that they would have their own counsel
or would that be something that we would

1485
02:01:37,520 --> 02:01:42,400
be providing counsel on as well?
>> Fall under us. Yeah.

1486
02:01:41,040 --> 02:01:48,719
» Okay.
>> Okay.

1487
02:01:45,199 --> 02:01:53,840
» The the town would town attorney would
cover um legal discussions stuff with

1488
02:01:51,360 --> 02:01:58,159
the volunteer fire departments. Yeah.
>> So, yes, is what I'm hearing. Okay. Some

1489
02:01:56,000 --> 02:02:03,760
some 501c3s want to have that separate
council. Uh and then thinking about also

1490
02:02:00,400 --> 02:02:08,000
like from an FOI perspective. Um other
small towns have well you foyer the

1491
02:02:06,400 --> 02:02:10,800
town. You didn't foyer the volunteer
fire department. We don't represent the

1492
02:02:09,280 --> 02:02:16,159
volunteer fire department. So like just
knowing about how to be able to answer

1493
02:02:12,800 --> 02:02:19,840
those kinds of questions. Um
thinking about you know what are we

1494
02:02:18,000 --> 02:02:24,000
going to do for are you going to change
your budgeting process to give your

1495
02:02:21,520 --> 02:02:28,320
departments um specific budgets? Do you
want to keep it the way that it is? Just

1496
02:02:25,760 --> 02:02:32,880
thinking about like what what do you
want to see in the future? That's kind

1497
02:02:29,760 --> 02:02:39,520
of the what do you what do you see your
town council as responsibil of being

1498
02:02:35,520 --> 02:02:43,360
responsible for? What's your ideal?
>> It's a hard one.

1499
02:02:42,159 --> 02:02:50,400
» I don't think we'll have an answer for
that tonight. But um I did have one

1500
02:02:46,400 --> 02:02:54,320
question. Um if you were chosen for town
attorney, what do you see kind of that

1501
02:02:52,080 --> 02:03:00,560
first few months that transition from
current attorney to um your firm? How

1502
02:02:58,239 --> 02:03:05,760
the the knowledge base being transferred
and kind of areas that you might want to

1503
02:03:03,280 --> 02:03:08,800
kind of deal with right up front versus
other projects that you know might be

1504
02:03:07,599 --> 02:03:12,239
more down the road.
>> We want to get as much information from

1505
02:03:10,480 --> 02:03:16,400
Paul as pos. He's a wealth of knowledge.
He's got a lot of historical knowledge.

1506
02:03:13,920 --> 02:03:21,280
So we would likely say to him, okay,
what is coming down the pike? What do we

1507
02:03:18,400 --> 02:03:26,239
need to be reactive to? And then also,
you know, integrating into what is there

1508
02:03:23,920 --> 02:03:29,840
a big public hearing that's coming up
that we need to be made aware of that

1509
02:03:27,840 --> 02:03:34,080
that's going to be what's coming down
the pike that we need to be most focused

1510
02:03:31,760 --> 02:03:45,760
on in and then also coming up to speed
on the other um more uh benign issues.

1511
02:03:40,719 --> 02:03:48,480
» Anyone else have any questions? No.
>> Then thank you for coming.

1512
02:03:47,280 --> 02:03:50,480
» Thank you very much for your time. I
appreciate it.

1513
02:03:49,199 --> 02:03:53,599
» Thank you for your time.
>> Good night.

1514
02:03:52,080 --> 02:03:57,960
» Do we want to take another five minute
recess?

1515
02:03:54,560 --> 02:03:57,960
» Have a great evening.

1516
02:04:01,599 --> 02:04:09,119
» Bring this meeting back to order. Next
on the agenda is interview with Zable

1517
02:04:06,880 --> 02:04:13,440
Shelonberg. Um, if you guys want to
introduce yourselves, tell us a little

1518
02:04:11,760 --> 02:04:16,239
about your firm, and then we do have a
handful of questions that we'll ask

1519
02:04:14,719 --> 02:04:19,760
after that.
>> Okay, I'll start off. Do I have to press

1520
02:04:19,119 --> 02:04:22,719
the button?
>> Nope, you're all set.

1521
02:04:20,639 --> 02:04:29,199
» It's automatically. Okay. Uh, my name is
Brian McCann. I'm an attorney with Zable

1522
02:04:24,880 --> 02:04:36,639
Shelonburg. Um, I joined the firm about
two years ago. Um, before that I was

1523
02:04:33,360 --> 02:04:44,239
with a uh firm, Pullman Comm. I was
based out of the Bridgeport office. Um,

1524
02:04:40,400 --> 02:04:47,280
and prior to that I was, um, assistant
corporation counsel for the city of

1525
02:04:45,679 --> 02:04:53,599
Norwok.
Um,

1526
02:04:48,880 --> 02:04:59,440
I, um, to my left is attorney uh, uh,
Jeremy, uh, Gustafson and to my right is

1527
02:04:56,800 --> 02:05:05,920
attorney uh, Barbara Shelonburg.
Um

1528
02:05:01,040 --> 02:05:10,800
I decided to join uh Sable Shelonburgg
largely because of their municipal

1529
02:05:08,400 --> 02:05:19,760
practice. Um
I did um some municipal practice after I

1530
02:05:15,760 --> 02:05:27,679
left the city. Um obviously uh a lot
with the city. I was um inhouse

1531
02:05:23,280 --> 02:05:36,480
full-time um with the city for about 13
14 years. Um

1532
02:05:31,440 --> 02:05:42,639
when I went to uh Pullman Comm, I did um
a fair amount of municipal

1533
02:05:39,840 --> 02:05:50,880
uh work, but it was mostly what I would
call like special counsel. Um it wasn't

1534
02:05:46,800 --> 02:05:57,440
the day-to-day operations
um that I'm that I enjoyed and that I'm

1535
02:05:54,480 --> 02:06:04,480
back to doing now. Um,
it was a lot of, um, like I said, what I

1536
02:06:00,400 --> 02:06:11,440
would call special counsel, excuse me.
It was um a lot of work with uh you know

1537
02:06:09,280 --> 02:06:17,040
redevelopment
um eminent domain

1538
02:06:14,960 --> 02:06:23,599
um
blight

1539
02:06:18,719 --> 02:06:29,920
um some special land use projects
um that were basically

1540
02:06:26,320 --> 02:06:36,000
um you know outsourced by the the town
attorney um or town attorneys wherever

1541
02:06:33,119 --> 02:06:43,360
that maybe like for example I worked for
the burrow of Ngat on some downtown

1542
02:06:39,599 --> 02:06:55,040
redevelopment projects. I worked with um
the town of East Haven on um the uh

1543
02:06:49,040 --> 02:07:01,280
airport expansion project. Um but
um after a few years there at at

1544
02:06:58,159 --> 02:07:09,280
Pullman, I think that I
realized that um I wanted to

1545
02:07:06,079 --> 02:07:15,199
work a little bit more on the everyday
municipal affairs that I was that I was

1546
02:07:11,599 --> 02:07:22,079
used to. Um
I um and I learned that through I think

1547
02:07:19,199 --> 02:07:29,599
you have some of our CVs and and
background but um I represented a uh

1548
02:07:27,920 --> 02:07:38,480
it's called the first taxing district in
Norwok but it's basically um a town

1549
02:07:34,480 --> 02:07:43,199
within a city. Um,
I could give you the full backstory, but

1550
02:07:40,719 --> 02:07:48,719
the short story is that when the city
was incorporated, it was a a

1551
02:07:46,320 --> 02:07:54,719
consolidation of several towns into a
chartered city. And uh

1552
02:07:51,760 --> 02:07:59,119
those towns retain certain powers,
certain taxing powers, certain powers

1553
02:07:56,800 --> 02:08:05,199
related to jurisdiction regarding
certain utilities, electric utilities,

1554
02:08:01,360 --> 02:08:11,679
water utilities. Um so there was an
interest at the time

1555
02:08:08,000 --> 02:08:16,639
um to retain some of them some of those
powers and they were given them in the

1556
02:08:14,079 --> 02:08:21,920
consolidation through a special act uh
by the legislators.

1557
02:08:18,960 --> 02:08:30,960
Um, even at Pullman, I worked very
closely with this um, one entity and um,

1558
02:08:27,440 --> 02:08:37,199
I think I fell back in love with what I
had known uh, on a day-to-day basis for

1559
02:08:34,159 --> 02:08:42,800
13 or 14 years, which is the the
municipal practice they have. Zable

1560
02:08:39,599 --> 02:08:52,400
Shelonburgg has a very robust um,
municipal practice. um and outside of

1561
02:08:46,639 --> 02:08:58,960
that um they have um a great land use
practice. Um it's a a passion that I

1562
02:08:56,880 --> 02:09:08,639
think all of the attorneys there really
share. Um and then outside of that they

1563
02:09:03,679 --> 02:09:15,040
have other components that also uh
make the um synergies work well. Like

1564
02:09:11,599 --> 02:09:22,480
for example, um a robust uh labor
employment practice, which obviously is

1565
02:09:17,599 --> 02:09:29,040
very important for um municipal law.
And um

1566
02:09:26,320 --> 02:09:35,760
we have uh expertise in in some other
matters uh related to municipal law like

1567
02:09:31,920 --> 02:09:40,320
uh FOYA and um
um

1568
02:09:37,280 --> 02:09:46,000
water sewer authorities and and and
various other practice areas. So I was

1569
02:09:42,239 --> 02:09:52,800
really impressed and uh and drawn to the
firm. Um so that's that's my story.

1570
02:09:51,599 --> 02:09:57,440
You guys want to introduce yourselves
individually?

1571
02:09:55,199 --> 02:10:03,040
» Sure. Hi. So again, I'm Barbara
Shelonberg

1572
02:09:58,960 --> 02:10:08,239
and uh I have been doing municipal work
now for about 25 years. Um I'm current

1573
02:10:07,199 --> 02:10:13,679
microphone a little closer.
>> I'm sorry.

1574
02:10:10,320 --> 02:10:18,800
» Um I'm currently the town attorney for
Greenwich and uh interim town attorney

1575
02:10:16,480 --> 02:10:23,679
for Mberry.
uh and I have worked in various

1576
02:10:20,960 --> 02:10:31,599
capacities over the past couple of
decades with probably about 25 different

1577
02:10:27,040 --> 02:10:37,520
municipalities around the state. Um as
Brian mentioned, our firm has always

1578
02:10:34,480 --> 02:10:42,960
been very focused on municipal practice.
We the group of us who started the firm

1579
02:10:40,719 --> 02:10:46,880
um in the beginning of the pandemic, we
didn't know it was going to be the

1580
02:10:44,480 --> 02:10:53,040
beginning of the pandemic. it just
worked out that way. Uh we all came from

1581
02:10:50,000 --> 02:10:58,639
a larger firm and it was primarily the
mun most of the municipal attorneys who

1582
02:10:56,079 --> 02:11:04,480
decided we wanted to go out on our own.
Uh but as Brian also mentioned, we do

1583
02:11:01,840 --> 02:11:11,119
have a lot of other practice areas that
have that synergy with municipal work

1584
02:11:08,239 --> 02:11:15,920
such as labor and employment, land use,
appellet. That's another practice area

1585
02:11:13,599 --> 02:11:22,480
that I have focused on.
um for the past 20 years or so along

1586
02:11:19,119 --> 02:11:28,159
with land use work.
Um we do all kinds of civil litigation

1587
02:11:26,320 --> 02:11:32,880
as well.
Um I just want to make sure I'm not

1588
02:11:30,239 --> 02:11:36,560
leaving anything anything out.
>> Tax appeals.

1589
02:11:33,920 --> 02:11:41,199
» Tax appeals. Yes. Thank you. We do we
handle tax appeals right now for a

1590
02:11:38,639 --> 02:11:49,040
number of municipalities including
Greenwich and Middbury and um all of the

1591
02:11:45,599 --> 02:11:55,280
other municipalities where uh one of us
is acting as town attorney in addition

1592
02:11:52,079 --> 02:12:00,800
to special counsel work with with
several different uh municipalities.

1593
02:11:58,000 --> 02:12:05,920
» And then in addition to that, hi my name
is Jeremy Gustoson. Thank you for having

1594
02:12:02,800 --> 02:12:09,760
us tonight. And in addition to that, one
of my interests and some of our firm's

1595
02:12:08,239 --> 02:12:13,599
attorney's interests is state
administrative proceedings as it relates

1596
02:12:11,840 --> 02:12:17,840
to municipalities.
So we have done hearings in front of the

1597
02:12:16,320 --> 02:12:23,520
Department of Public Health for both
emergency medical services and public

1598
02:12:20,480 --> 02:12:28,719
health order appeals from local public
health directors. As both Brian and

1599
02:12:26,719 --> 02:12:33,840
Barbara mentioned, we frequently appear
in front of the FOIC, the FOY Freedom of

1600
02:12:31,199 --> 02:12:38,400
Information Commission, and have
generally receive favorable outcomes for

1601
02:12:36,239 --> 02:12:44,560
both our municipalities and our private
clients. We represent the FYC.

1602
02:12:41,520 --> 02:12:50,320
In addition, we um one of my interests
is also grant administration and grant

1603
02:12:47,040 --> 02:12:55,920
writing and grant supervision. So um
today I just finished a um grant for one

1604
02:12:53,440 --> 02:13:01,599
of our municipalities or tied up all
loose ends and that was through deep um

1605
02:12:59,520 --> 02:13:07,040
department of environmental energy
protection and in addition we also have

1606
02:13:04,800 --> 02:13:13,040
experience in municipal solid waste. Um
we represent some regional waste

1607
02:13:09,280 --> 02:13:21,119
authorities and we also represent um a
council of government as well. And um I

1608
02:13:17,199 --> 02:13:27,280
guess one final um state administrative
proceeding we also handle is um labor

1609
02:13:24,880 --> 02:13:33,760
employment. So, CHRO
um and the Department of Labor um

1610
02:13:30,800 --> 02:13:39,199
workers comp um commission we've handled
hearings in front of and then in my work

1611
02:13:36,639 --> 02:13:47,760
I've also done some federal regulations
as well in front of the US um sorry the

1612
02:13:44,079 --> 02:13:53,679
United States um engineering corp for
the military. So um handled that in

1613
02:13:50,800 --> 02:13:58,800
regards to um one of the town or one of
the cities I serve as special counsel

1614
02:13:55,679 --> 02:14:04,000
for for their water um authority, their
water company. They were constructing a

1615
02:14:01,280 --> 02:14:07,920
huge project that was over $10 million
and they had to go through the

1616
02:14:05,679 --> 02:14:13,599
regulatory process both at the state and
federal level to get environmental

1617
02:14:09,599 --> 02:14:17,840
protections and um I came in and helped
them towards the end with certain

1618
02:14:15,440 --> 02:14:22,560
draftings of easements and restrictive
covenants.

1619
02:14:20,560 --> 02:14:26,679
» Thank you. I think we'll start with our
some of our set questions.

1620
02:14:27,280 --> 02:14:35,679
Um, describe your firm's experience
across the range of legal matters um

1621
02:14:32,320 --> 02:14:38,679
involving municipalities like Watertown
um

1622
02:14:39,040 --> 02:14:46,880
encountering um land use, zoning,
contracts, litigation, FOI, ethics and

1623
02:14:44,320 --> 02:14:51,760
ordinance. How would you determine which
attorney within your firm would handle a

1624
02:14:50,000 --> 02:14:56,880
given matter and who would be the
specific contact for the town?

1625
02:14:55,840 --> 02:14:59,599
I could take that one.
>> Okay.

1626
02:14:57,760 --> 02:15:06,159
» Um,
so I think what we had envisioned, um,

1627
02:15:02,800 --> 02:15:11,840
subject to conversation with, uh, town
council, I think we had envisioned that

1628
02:15:08,480 --> 02:15:18,800
I would be the lead, um, person, the,
you know, the primary point of contact.

1629
02:15:15,199 --> 02:15:26,079
And I think that that's important um
because um the clients that I've the

1630
02:15:22,560 --> 02:15:32,480
municipal clients that I've worked with
um I think have enjoyed

1631
02:15:29,440 --> 02:15:37,280
um having a principal point of contact.
you know, if there are and I'm not sure

1632
02:15:34,960 --> 02:15:45,280
how, you know, Watertown operates or how
this council or its uh town manager

1633
02:15:40,480 --> 02:15:50,320
operates, but um you know, my clients in
the past have enjoyed, you know, listen,

1634
02:15:47,040 --> 02:15:54,000
if there's an emergency at 11 p.m., you
know, I want somebody's cell phone

1635
02:15:52,159 --> 02:15:58,239
number. You know, I want to I want to
rattle off a question. If there's, you

1636
02:15:56,159 --> 02:16:03,760
know, something that comes up, uh,
obviously your your land use boards, um,

1637
02:16:01,599 --> 02:16:09,040
a lot of your commissions probably, you
know, meet in the evening hours. If

1638
02:16:06,079 --> 02:16:14,400
there's something that comes up from,
you know, Robert's rule of rules of

1639
02:16:11,199 --> 02:16:19,199
order, parliamentary procedure down to,
you know, well, do we have to accept

1640
02:16:16,719 --> 02:16:23,840
this environmental intervention petition
or something, you know, that there's

1641
02:16:21,679 --> 02:16:30,639
someone that they could, you know, speak
to. Um

1642
02:16:26,320 --> 02:16:38,479
from there um yes there definitely are
uh situations where um I would involve

1643
02:16:34,800 --> 02:16:45,040
some of my other team members. Um we
have uh uh like I said before we have a

1644
02:16:42,000 --> 02:16:50,479
fantastic uh labor employment practice.
So if it's something comes up regarding

1645
02:16:47,840 --> 02:16:56,880
Mera or collective bargaining or or
something um I probably would

1646
02:16:53,920 --> 02:17:04,800
um involved that the attorneys from that
practice area of my firm um and and in

1647
02:17:01,200 --> 02:17:11,760
other areas too. I mean although I um
have experience in in a lot of of areas,

1648
02:17:08,559 --> 02:17:18,319
I think um
I think there is a benefit at times to

1649
02:17:15,120 --> 02:17:25,200
you know specific uh delegations at the
firm so that something can be you know

1650
02:17:21,200 --> 02:17:31,679
handled while you know that would you
know free me up for for other things

1651
02:17:27,679 --> 02:17:35,439
that that that pop up. But um
I don't really think that there are many

1652
02:17:33,840 --> 02:17:43,280
I was trying to think of it on the write
up like that there are many areas

1653
02:17:40,000 --> 02:17:53,760
where municipal areas where we don't
have expertise. Um I would say probably

1654
02:17:50,160 --> 02:17:59,599
some areas of like very specific
environmental litigation, brownfield

1655
02:17:55,760 --> 02:18:05,920
litigation would probably be one. and
probably municipal bonding would be

1656
02:18:02,399 --> 02:18:09,280
another. But outside of that, um, like
what Jeremy said, I think I've appeared

1657
02:18:07,599 --> 02:18:15,200
in front of every single state
administrative agency. I think I've

1658
02:18:12,639 --> 02:18:22,399
prosecuted or defended just about every
type of administrative appeal that there

1659
02:18:18,559 --> 02:18:28,160
that there is. Um,
so while I don't know that I would

1660
02:18:25,120 --> 02:18:34,240
necessarily need to
delegate um a specific matter, I think

1661
02:18:32,240 --> 02:18:39,280
it's probably in the best interest of
the town just to have efficiency. Like

1662
02:18:36,639 --> 02:18:45,519
if you have a litigation
u a complex uh you know property

1663
02:18:42,399 --> 02:18:51,599
litigation or or
um a very involved uh labor negotiation

1664
02:18:49,439 --> 02:18:56,559
that's been you know a contract
negotiation that's been taking several

1665
02:18:53,280 --> 02:19:02,559
months. it's probably best if it just
sits a in in um the labor attorney's

1666
02:19:00,800 --> 02:19:06,880
hands, but also that it receives that
level of dedication

1667
02:19:04,800 --> 02:19:10,639
to that single matter.
>> Yeah, if I could just follow up on that,

1668
02:19:08,639 --> 02:19:16,479
I I think that's I think that's one of
the strengths we have because as Brian

1669
02:19:12,880 --> 02:19:20,559
mentioned, we have people who um have
expertise in all these different areas.

1670
02:19:18,479 --> 02:19:25,439
So although I agree there should always
be a point person um there's would

1671
02:19:23,599 --> 02:19:30,000
really never be a time where there isn't
going to be somebody available

1672
02:19:27,920 --> 02:19:35,200
um not just because that person has the
particular expertise but also you know

1673
02:19:32,399 --> 02:19:41,200
people take vacations or they get sick
or you know things happen um we always

1674
02:19:38,719 --> 02:19:45,760
cover for each other and because so many
of us have a lot of experience in all

1675
02:19:43,760 --> 02:19:51,680
these different areas we're able to do
that and so therefore we're able to

1676
02:19:48,800 --> 02:19:58,160
really meet the client's needs.
>> Chair,

1677
02:19:53,600 --> 02:20:01,680
» how many attorneys are in your group?
>> There are nine of us.

1678
02:20:00,240 --> 02:20:06,160
» Nine together.
>> Yes.

1679
02:20:03,040 --> 02:20:11,439
» And I Yeah, I think there's I mean, some
people obviously do more municipal work

1680
02:20:08,560 --> 02:20:16,800
than others, but I'm trying to think I I
think pretty much everybody does

1681
02:20:14,160 --> 02:20:21,280
something. Like again, one of our
attorneys focuses on labor employment.

1682
02:20:19,200 --> 02:20:27,920
So she does that for m municipalities
and private clients.

1683
02:20:24,000 --> 02:20:34,800
» Um others deal with tax appeals again
for municipalities and private clients.

1684
02:20:31,280 --> 02:20:39,760
Um Jeremy happens to do a lot of work in
you know FOYA appearing before FOIC

1685
02:20:37,680 --> 02:20:43,840
commissions. As I said, I'm an appellet
attorney. So, you know, I've I've

1686
02:20:42,319 --> 02:20:49,760
appeared a number of times before the
appellet supreme court. Um, so yeah, I

1687
02:20:47,600 --> 02:20:56,720
think pretty much everybody to some
extent has handled municipal work in one

1688
02:20:54,319 --> 02:21:02,319
capacity or another over
>> and when we Sorry, I was just going to

1689
02:20:59,359 --> 02:21:05,200
add when we delegate or when an
assignment is delegated to another

1690
02:21:03,680 --> 02:21:09,840
attorney, we're always in constant
communication. we would always maybe

1691
02:21:07,680 --> 02:21:14,240
copy the town attorney on matters just
so not so much for them to do anything

1692
02:21:12,240 --> 02:21:19,600
just so they are aware of what is going
on. And then another area that we do

1693
02:21:16,560 --> 02:21:27,439
have some experience in is town and
education relations which pops up in um

1694
02:21:24,800 --> 02:21:32,160
several towns where there might be
issues or conversations that need to be

1695
02:21:29,920 --> 02:21:38,399
had between the town attorneys and board
of ed attorneys and working through

1696
02:21:34,160 --> 02:21:44,319
those issues as well. Um, and just to
echo both of Barbara and Brian's points,

1697
02:21:42,720 --> 02:21:51,439
uh, I guess the final point that I will
say on this is, um, that we do work as a

1698
02:21:49,600 --> 02:21:56,080
team. So, if there are questions that
we've not had before, we go to someone

1699
02:21:53,920 --> 02:22:01,439
that has the experience and asks just to
ensure that towns get the best legal

1700
02:21:58,399 --> 02:22:04,880
advice that they can
>> through the chair. Yeah.

1701
02:22:02,560 --> 02:22:09,200
» Just clarify for me uh the locations of
your offices.

1702
02:22:06,880 --> 02:22:10,240
» It's uh our office is in New Haven.
>> New Haven.

1703
02:22:09,920 --> 02:22:14,240
» Yeah.
>> Thank you.

1704
02:22:12,240 --> 02:22:20,319
» Um you've pretty much answered the
second question which was response

1705
02:22:17,120 --> 02:22:26,240
ability if if the U primary contact
isn't available. But in addition, I

1706
02:22:22,560 --> 02:22:32,080
would say would you or any member of
your team attend council meetings or

1707
02:22:28,800 --> 02:22:40,600
executive sessions if needed?
Absolutely. Yeah, I think that that's um

1708
02:22:36,160 --> 02:22:40,600
I think that that's important. Um

1709
02:22:41,040 --> 02:22:49,439
the um
you know, I've been working with a

1710
02:22:44,720 --> 02:22:54,880
couple clients and you know um
training on

1711
02:22:51,920 --> 02:22:59,680
um and improving you know uh open
meetings uh compliance with open

1712
02:22:56,720 --> 02:23:03,760
meetings foyer. Um
I'm working with a client now on you

1713
02:23:01,680 --> 02:23:11,520
know appropriately
uh noticing executive sessions

1714
02:23:07,359 --> 02:23:18,240
um in fact one of the towns
um in lower fearful county. I mean, I

1715
02:23:14,319 --> 02:23:24,800
recently read a decision about um
um some violations of the use of

1716
02:23:21,840 --> 02:23:28,720
executive sessions, and I used that as
for my municipal client, I used that as

1717
02:23:26,560 --> 02:23:32,720
a learning tool just so that we could so
that they could understand, you know,

1718
02:23:31,040 --> 02:23:37,200
you can't go into an executive session
just because you don't want the public

1719
02:23:34,319 --> 02:23:42,000
to hear what you're going to discuss.
There are very specific

1720
02:23:39,680 --> 02:23:46,960
um exemptions that exist within the
statues, right?

1721
02:23:43,920 --> 02:23:51,120
um the purchase of property, you know,
um negotiation of a purchase price,

1722
02:23:49,120 --> 02:23:56,800
personnel matters, very specific
personnel matters. Um and even within

1723
02:23:55,040 --> 02:24:04,160
those like, you know, you have to give
the employee the the the option to to

1724
02:23:59,680 --> 02:24:10,080
handle that in in open session. So yes,
um to answer your question, I think we

1725
02:24:07,200 --> 02:24:16,399
would definitely be available and uh I
personally think that it's important. So

1726
02:24:12,560 --> 02:24:23,760
um with with my municipal client I mean
I attend um the monthly meetings

1727
02:24:21,040 --> 02:24:28,000
largely if there's as a general rule if
there's even if there's not an agenda

1728
02:24:25,520 --> 02:24:34,000
item that I'm going to assist with or
speak to. Um, and what I found, but we

1729
02:24:31,680 --> 02:24:37,600
could, you know, if we're lucky enough
to get selected, we could have this

1730
02:24:35,439 --> 02:24:44,479
discussion, but what I found is that
it's also a really great way to sort of

1731
02:24:40,479 --> 02:24:50,399
keep up with the affairs of the town,
right? Like, um, it's a very convenient

1732
02:24:48,080 --> 02:24:55,520
manner in which like a lot of the issues
are sort of consolidated down into a

1733
02:24:52,960 --> 02:25:00,240
two, three hour meeting. like it's it's
difficult for me to keep a pulse on okay

1734
02:24:58,560 --> 02:25:07,120
like what's going on what are the big
applications in zoning right now or um

1735
02:25:04,960 --> 02:25:11,439
have there been issues in the in the
health department that have you know

1736
02:25:08,960 --> 02:25:17,359
crept up um is there something coming
down the pike that we should be aware of

1737
02:25:15,120 --> 02:25:22,240
and um
we had this discussion earlier like what

1738
02:25:19,439 --> 02:25:30,319
what one of the things that I like about
the municipal work is the opportunity um

1739
02:25:27,120 --> 02:25:35,280
to be proactive. Like there's pro, you
know, there's proactive lawyering and

1740
02:25:32,080 --> 02:25:40,800
there's reactive lawyering. I enjoy
um the opportunity to um you know,

1741
02:25:39,120 --> 02:25:46,160
prevent some of those issues from
creeping up before before they happen,

1742
02:25:43,280 --> 02:25:52,800
right? So like if the council wants me
to sit down and draft some resolution on

1743
02:25:50,800 --> 02:25:58,720
a kind of controversial topic is I'm
happy to happy to do that. Um if the if

1744
02:25:56,479 --> 02:26:06,479
the council or any one of the agencies,
the commissions wants, you know, um to

1745
02:26:02,080 --> 02:26:11,840
have some discussion about uh an agenda
item um or seek legal opinion on one

1746
02:26:09,760 --> 02:26:15,680
something an agenda item. Happy to do
that. I actually really welcome it

1747
02:26:13,840 --> 02:26:22,080
because personally I think it's just a
lot easier heading off that exposure

1748
02:26:19,280 --> 02:26:26,319
before it comes to fruition because then
you're just you're just completely on

1749
02:26:23,439 --> 02:26:32,880
your heels. You're just always reactive.
We have litigators that love to

1750
02:26:28,000 --> 02:26:36,319
litigate. Don't get me wrong, but um I
think even you know the litigators would

1751
02:26:34,720 --> 02:26:42,240
tell you I mean I tell my clients all
the time litigation is not cheap.

1752
02:26:39,120 --> 02:26:48,319
Um it's not. and and especially when
you're on uh the defendant side of the V

1753
02:26:45,359 --> 02:26:56,080
because you're not necessarily in the
driver's seat, if if if someone wants to

1754
02:26:52,080 --> 02:27:00,800
do an aggressive amount of discovery,
you have to respond to an aggressive

1755
02:26:57,680 --> 02:27:03,520
amount of discovery. Um but so that's
yeah, to answer your question, I would

1756
02:27:03,040 --> 02:27:07,040
be happy.
>> Well, you you've gone into the next

1757
02:27:05,280 --> 02:27:12,640
question, which is
>> through the chair. How do you view the

1758
02:27:09,600 --> 02:27:17,439
town attorney's role in preventing legal
problems rather than reacting to them?

1759
02:27:15,280 --> 02:27:23,439
» Uh do you have an example of maybe
helping a municipal client reduce legal

1760
02:27:20,399 --> 02:27:28,319
or operating costs before it becomes
litigation?

1761
02:27:25,120 --> 02:27:34,560
» Yeah. Uh yes. I
um I've had municipal clients in the

1762
02:27:31,600 --> 02:27:38,479
past and I I don't mean to take up the
conversation. if you you guys could step

1763
02:27:36,000 --> 02:27:45,120
in whenever. But um I've had municipal
clients where they know that there's

1764
02:27:40,399 --> 02:27:51,040
going to be um a controversial um
application that's coming up that they

1765
02:27:48,800 --> 02:27:59,120
will ask me to get involved really from
from the onset. Um I've done that for

1766
02:27:56,479 --> 02:28:03,600
20 years. I've done that the my you know
my entire career. I mean, even when I

1767
02:28:00,960 --> 02:28:08,800
went to, here's an example. When I went
to um Homeman and Comm I referenced some

1768
02:28:07,359 --> 02:28:13,359
of the work for the for the Bureau of
Nagatuck, like they were they were

1769
02:28:10,720 --> 02:28:19,120
having um
um a a controversial application come

1770
02:28:16,880 --> 02:28:23,840
before their land use boards. Um they
knew that it would be, you know, kind of

1771
02:28:21,359 --> 02:28:29,520
controversial to a lot of the neighbors.
Uh they knew this because of the use.

1772
02:28:26,240 --> 02:28:34,640
And so, um, they hired me as special
land use counsel just to come in and

1773
02:28:32,080 --> 02:28:39,120
make sure that, um, you know, I wasn't
steering anything in any particular

1774
02:28:36,319 --> 02:28:44,319
direction. Um,
but, uh, you know, to come in and make

1775
02:28:41,920 --> 02:28:50,399
sure that the public hearings were held
the way that they're supposed to. Um, so

1776
02:28:47,840 --> 02:28:55,600
that, you know, there was everyone had a
a chance to speak, but there also wasn't

1777
02:28:53,359 --> 02:28:58,800
a a dialogue. I explained to them that
it's not a question and answer. It's a

1778
02:28:57,200 --> 02:29:05,280
public hearing. You're supposed to hear
the public. Um so we put it down for the

1779
02:29:01,600 --> 02:29:10,880
requisite number of public hearings. Um
there were um opinions that I rendered

1780
02:29:08,800 --> 02:29:16,319
during the deliberations.
Um there were multiple issues that came

1781
02:29:13,520 --> 02:29:23,439
up um
in their decision um you know how this

1782
02:29:21,200 --> 02:29:27,280
should be how this particular use should
be treated because there was some

1783
02:29:25,280 --> 02:29:35,200
ambiguity as to what it should be
classified as. Um and then also just

1784
02:29:31,040 --> 02:29:40,319
writing uh drafting uh alternative uh
resolutions. Um you know one thing that

1785
02:29:37,840 --> 02:29:44,800
they asked me is like can you um you
know based on this record could you come

1786
02:29:41,840 --> 02:29:49,840
up with a draft approval and a motion to
approve motion to deny and you know

1787
02:29:48,080 --> 02:29:53,040
explain what were some of the things
maybe you could outline some of the

1788
02:29:51,040 --> 02:29:58,240
things that were detailed in the record
in the transcript

1789
02:29:55,359 --> 02:30:03,680
so that you know our decision could be
you know based on substantial evidence

1790
02:30:00,640 --> 02:30:07,920
before the agency and so I was I was
happy to do that.

1791
02:30:06,319 --> 02:30:12,560
I think if I could just follow up on
that, it's important and and I know

1792
02:30:10,479 --> 02:30:18,160
something I do, I think we all do all
the time dealing with municipalities and

1793
02:30:15,840 --> 02:30:24,800
any client for that matter is you have
to present the facts and you have to let

1794
02:30:22,160 --> 02:30:31,840
the client know what the strengths and
weaknesses of the matter are so that

1795
02:30:28,479 --> 02:30:38,560
that person or board or commission can
make an informed decision. Um, and you

1796
02:30:35,920 --> 02:30:44,000
know, I I I think that involves usually
making some recommendation. Ultimately,

1797
02:30:41,120 --> 02:30:49,200
it's up to the client to decide which
direct direction to go in. Um, but I

1798
02:30:47,280 --> 02:30:53,040
just think it's very important that, you
know, as Brian said, that's one of the

1799
02:30:50,880 --> 02:30:57,920
advantages. If you come to certain
meetings regularly, you're in contact,

1800
02:30:56,080 --> 02:31:04,640
you know what's going on, you can
anticipate what may become a controversy

1801
02:31:01,439 --> 02:31:08,160
and act in a proactive manner and and
properly advise in that regard.

1802
02:31:07,680 --> 02:31:12,160
» Question.
>> Yes, please. First,

1803
02:31:10,240 --> 02:31:17,680
» thank you. Thank you. Um recognizing
that your office is in New Haven,

1804
02:31:14,560 --> 02:31:23,120
section 401 of our charter requires a
town attorney to have an office within a

1805
02:31:19,760 --> 02:31:27,040
20 mile radius. Um based on a review,
you're just a little bit outside of

1806
02:31:24,560 --> 02:31:32,800
that. Do you plan on opening up um a
satellite office or how would we

1807
02:31:30,160 --> 02:31:38,920
consider that as far as the chart uh our
charter is concerned in your distance to

1808
02:31:35,920 --> 02:31:38,920
town?

1809
02:31:39,200 --> 02:31:45,600
» I don't know. Um
I I I assume that we were within the the

1810
02:31:44,640 --> 02:31:50,479
range, but
>> yeah, that but that is certainly

1811
02:31:47,840 --> 02:31:55,520
something we could do. I mean, it's not
I don't think that's a that's a major

1812
02:31:52,880 --> 02:32:00,000
issue just to be able to open an office.
I mean, from a I I understand charter

1813
02:31:57,600 --> 02:32:05,600
requirements from a practical
perspective. Um many of us work at least

1814
02:32:03,120 --> 02:32:10,399
part-time from home. We live in various
places, you know, some closer, some

1815
02:32:07,760 --> 02:32:16,800
further away. a lot is done now. I think
we've all changed since the pandemic.

1816
02:32:13,359 --> 02:32:23,439
You know, we do a lot virtually. Um but
if that, you know, is an issue based on

1817
02:32:19,680 --> 02:32:30,720
the charter, um I I don't think it would
be a problem. Um especially since we are

1818
02:32:26,319 --> 02:32:33,520
in Mbury now, we hope to stay there. Um
and uh so, you know, I think that's

1819
02:32:32,720 --> 02:32:37,600
something we could easily
>> Thank you. I'm sure we'll have cons uh

1820
02:32:35,280 --> 02:32:41,439
you know, people to answer to as far as
that's concerned. So that is a question

1821
02:32:39,760 --> 02:32:46,479
that you know we would have to have
answered. And then how would that become

1822
02:32:44,319 --> 02:32:52,000
would um if you opened up a satellite
office would the town be you know

1823
02:32:48,560 --> 02:32:57,920
responsible for carrying that costs and
how would you do that would be our

1824
02:32:55,280 --> 02:33:05,280
responsibility but look there would be
advantages to us because we view

1825
02:33:00,880 --> 02:33:11,680
ourselves as statewide you know again
myself um I happen to live in Trumbull I

1826
02:33:08,399 --> 02:33:16,720
travel to Greenwich I travel to Middbury
I'm now doing I've been brought on as

1827
02:33:13,680 --> 02:33:21,920
special counsel in Ansonia. You know,
I'm driving all around. We're

1828
02:33:19,920 --> 02:33:28,960
» represent West
Hatam. And so, actually, we have

1829
02:33:25,040 --> 02:33:34,080
actually thought already about opening
certain satellite offices for that

1830
02:33:32,399 --> 02:33:39,040
reason. I mean, it's good from a
marketing perspective. So if that is

1831
02:33:35,920 --> 02:33:42,240
something that would be required then
you know I don't I don't think that's an

1832
02:33:41,359 --> 02:33:46,960
issue.
>> Okay. Thank you Dan.

1833
02:33:44,240 --> 02:33:50,880
» Yeah thank you. Um so you said something
that I thought was really great Brian

1834
02:33:48,720 --> 02:33:54,960
which is um you really see it as as kind
of a responsibility of the town attorney

1835
02:33:52,640 --> 02:34:00,319
to be president at our at our meetings.
Um so from a fiduciary standpoint are

1836
02:33:58,720 --> 02:34:05,600
you billing us for those meetings when
you're coming on your own accord? And

1837
02:34:02,640 --> 02:34:11,120
and kind of related to that, if Mark has
a, you know, five, six, seven minute

1838
02:34:08,240 --> 02:34:16,080
call that he needs to make to you, where
does that fit into your billing

1839
02:34:13,520 --> 02:34:19,680
structure?
>> Yeah. I mean, I don't

1840
02:34:17,439 --> 02:34:23,520
» It's a future question on the list.
>> I did it again.

1841
02:34:22,399 --> 02:34:29,920
» You could answer it, though.
>> Okay. Let's go out of turn. Um, I think

1842
02:34:27,680 --> 02:34:33,040
on other contracts we don't bill for
travel. Correct.

1843
02:34:30,880 --> 02:34:40,160
» No, we don't bill. Right. We bill for
the time that is spent with the client.

1844
02:34:36,560 --> 02:34:42,000
» We don't bill for our travel to and from
that kind of thing. Like

1845
02:34:41,359 --> 02:34:46,720
» and
>> I go to regular board of selectment

1846
02:34:44,319 --> 02:34:50,880
meetings, you know,
>> sometimes I'm in the car. I could be in

1847
02:34:49,120 --> 02:34:56,319
the car, especially going to Greenwich
with the traffic an hour and a half, but

1848
02:34:54,080 --> 02:35:01,920
that's on my time. And I use it as I
call it my mobile office. I use that

1849
02:34:59,439 --> 02:35:06,399
time. I'm on the telephone a lot,
>> you know, either for other work or

1850
02:35:04,560 --> 02:35:09,840
personal matters. So, you you know, you
just learn to accommodate that way. So,

1851
02:35:08,319 --> 02:35:14,160
yeah, we built we built for the time
that we work

1852
02:35:11,920 --> 02:35:21,200
» and we and we are like Barbara said
earlier, we are almost all all over the

1853
02:35:17,920 --> 02:35:27,680
place, too. I mean, um,
I represent, uh, uh, the redevelopment

1854
02:35:25,040 --> 02:35:32,720
corporation for the city of Norwich, and
I'm working on a project now with the

1855
02:35:29,680 --> 02:35:41,120
town of Winchester. I mean, they are in
very opposite corners of our state, but

1856
02:35:35,280 --> 02:35:49,439
um, we uh we we we we travel. And to uh
Dan's last question, um I'm sorry,

1857
02:35:44,560 --> 02:35:56,560
Council Person Cociola. Um
there are certain um

1858
02:35:54,160 --> 02:36:02,720
there are certain
uh courtesies that I think that we all

1859
02:35:58,640 --> 02:36:07,439
offer, you know, municipal clients. Um,
I was just talking to a client on the

1860
02:36:04,560 --> 02:36:15,120
way up here, you know, and if it's
generally speaking, if it's, you know, a

1861
02:36:10,000 --> 02:36:20,240
6 10 minute conversation, um, it, um, it
could it could just be, you know, a

1862
02:36:16,800 --> 02:36:25,040
courtesy to the to the client. Um I
don't think that there's

1863
02:36:22,720 --> 02:36:30,240
um really any interest from any members
of our firm to you know for every four

1864
02:36:28,560 --> 02:36:37,280
minute
um expenditure of of of our time. Um and

1865
02:36:35,600 --> 02:36:42,000
like I said I think that that also
works. I think that's mutually

1866
02:36:39,760 --> 02:36:46,960
beneficial. Like I mean I would hope
that if I was appointed town attorney

1867
02:36:43,920 --> 02:36:52,160
that I would be able to you know develop
a a rapport relationship with you know

1868
02:36:50,000 --> 02:36:57,040
the chairperson and the and the and the
town manager so that we all feel

1869
02:36:54,080 --> 02:37:03,280
comfortable you know being able to reach
out to each other and um have

1870
02:37:00,800 --> 02:37:07,439
conversations because I think that like
you know it I think that really does

1871
02:37:05,520 --> 02:37:13,200
blend with the other concepts that we
were discussing like you know proactive

1872
02:37:10,560 --> 02:37:18,640
lawyering, understanding, being very
familiar with the issues. There's no

1873
02:37:15,280 --> 02:37:22,560
like magic bullet on how that you
accomplish all that. It's just it's a

1874
02:37:20,960 --> 02:37:28,479
lot of things. It's attending the the
the council member meetings. It's, you

1875
02:37:26,240 --> 02:37:32,720
know, having a rapport with the town
manager. It's being available so that

1876
02:37:31,200 --> 02:37:36,720
you could hear things when there
something comes up and it's it's an

1877
02:37:34,880 --> 02:37:41,040
emergency. That's how you have your
finger on the on the pulse. It's all

1878
02:37:38,720 --> 02:37:44,560
those things. Thank you.
>> The other thing we do to address the the

1879
02:37:43,040 --> 02:37:48,160
concern with billing is, you know,
sometimes, as you said, it's very, as

1880
02:37:46,640 --> 02:37:52,319
we've said, it's very important for us
to have a team approach. And so, there

1881
02:37:50,479 --> 02:37:58,880
are sometimes that maybe they're going
to be two or three of us in some

1882
02:37:57,120 --> 02:38:03,760
communication.
But I know what I always do when I go

1883
02:38:01,040 --> 02:38:09,520
over my bills is I will accommodate for
that. I'm not going to charge for every

1884
02:38:06,960 --> 02:38:17,920
attorney who's been involved, that kind
of thing. Or again, um, you know, if I'm

1885
02:38:14,560 --> 02:38:22,399
town attorney and for example, one one
of one of the towns I'm working in right

1886
02:38:19,920 --> 02:38:29,040
now has mostly
labor issues, a lot of labor issues,

1887
02:38:25,840 --> 02:38:34,240
unemployment issues. So, my partner
Courtney George, who specializes in that

1888
02:38:31,439 --> 02:38:40,640
area, she's working on that and she's
developed now a rapport with um the

1889
02:38:37,280 --> 02:38:46,000
first select person, which that is fine.
You know, I'm always copied on emails

1890
02:38:44,080 --> 02:38:49,920
having to do with her work because I'm
the town attorney. I don't charge my

1891
02:38:47,920 --> 02:38:54,160
time for reading those emails. I know
she's charging her time. She's the one

1892
02:38:52,479 --> 02:38:59,359
who's really doing the work. That's
that's the way I look at it. So unless

1893
02:38:56,080 --> 02:39:03,680
I'm d right unless I'm directly involved
I'm really the one doing the substantive

1894
02:39:01,200 --> 02:39:09,520
work I don't charge my time. So I think
you know we're we're cognizant of trying

1895
02:39:05,280 --> 02:39:15,200
to be fair but still do an excellent
job.

1896
02:39:12,000 --> 02:39:21,840
» Uh the next question operates a water
and sewer authority and periodically

1897
02:39:17,680 --> 02:39:28,319
faces complex contractual regulatory
financing and intermunicipal issues. Um,

1898
02:39:26,080 --> 02:39:33,280
tell us what experience your firm has
with municipal water and sewer matters

1899
02:39:30,880 --> 02:39:38,600
and how you handle an issue outside of
the regular assigned attorney's

1900
02:39:35,600 --> 02:39:38,600
knowledge.

1901
02:39:39,280 --> 02:39:51,120
» Um, so I represent a water company, so
um I probably would not require special

1902
02:39:47,359 --> 02:39:58,479
counsel for that. Um
we work with um very closely with um

1903
02:39:56,479 --> 02:40:03,760
Connecticut DPH, the uh Department of
Public Health, as well as PURA.

1904
02:40:02,160 --> 02:40:08,640
Um,
and

1905
02:40:05,280 --> 02:40:18,560
very recently, I don't know if Watertown
is a member, but very recently, I've

1906
02:40:12,160 --> 02:40:27,200
been um brought on um to the CWWA, the
Connecticut Waterworks Association,

1907
02:40:21,359 --> 02:40:33,120
um on a very limited discrete uh basis,
but um not to bore you all, but one of

1908
02:40:30,399 --> 02:40:40,880
the things that the a lot of the CWWA
water companies are dealing with is um a

1909
02:40:37,439 --> 02:40:46,240
bit of a um issue with the Connecticut
DOT because the Connecticut DOT requires

1910
02:40:43,760 --> 02:40:51,359
has recently started requiring that the
water utilities apply for state highway

1911
02:40:48,479 --> 02:41:00,240
encroachment permits and we've explained
to um the legislators as well as um

1912
02:40:57,120 --> 02:41:04,880
general counsel and the uh commissioner
of the DOT

1913
02:41:01,760 --> 02:41:08,960
that this is problematic for a number of
reasons. Number one is because that the

1914
02:41:07,040 --> 02:41:15,120
water companies don't typically own the
sewer or water laterals that travel from

1915
02:41:12,080 --> 02:41:22,960
the main to the private property. Uh
signing on as a um as a permit and

1916
02:41:20,240 --> 02:41:28,560
assuming certain responsibilities
uh shity performance bonds maintenance

1917
02:41:26,319 --> 02:41:32,800
bonds etc. as well as just plain
contractual language could be

1918
02:41:30,000 --> 02:41:37,120
problematic because
that could create anyone that's familiar

1919
02:41:35,200 --> 02:41:42,880
with property laws, you know,
maintenance upkeep can lead to

1920
02:41:40,399 --> 02:41:47,920
conclusions of ownership and that's
problematic. So, um yeah, I have

1921
02:41:46,240 --> 02:41:52,080
actually quite a bit of experience in
dealing with uh a lot of the regulatory

1922
02:41:50,240 --> 02:42:01,359
agencies. Right now, we're going through
a a rather big project. Um, my water

1923
02:41:57,439 --> 02:42:06,399
company client is um repairing a a dam.
They're actually under a consent order

1924
02:42:02,880 --> 02:42:10,240
from the Connecticut Deep to uh to
repair this dam. So, I'm working with

1925
02:42:08,080 --> 02:42:14,880
them. We have to go through the various
regulatory um agencies to seek approval.

1926
02:42:13,359 --> 02:42:18,640
We're applying for grants so that we
could actually do the work because $40

1927
02:42:16,640 --> 02:42:26,160
million does not fall out of the sky,
unfortunately.

1928
02:42:20,160 --> 02:42:32,880
Um and um yeah, we uh we have to work
with all of we have to work with

1929
02:42:27,840 --> 02:42:37,200
Connecticut deep uh as a a class one or
class two water company. Any sort of

1930
02:42:34,560 --> 02:42:44,880
disposal of land has to go through a a
process. Um

1931
02:42:40,160 --> 02:42:49,359
there are we've gone through um SEIPA
interventions where neighbors to the

1932
02:42:47,280 --> 02:42:52,479
reservoir have come forward and we've
had administrative hearings at

1933
02:42:50,800 --> 02:43:01,520
Connecticut Deep that then goes on and
gets appealed to Superior Court. Um,

1934
02:42:56,240 --> 02:43:05,359
so, uh, long story short, we do have,
uh, experience with water and sewer

1935
02:43:04,000 --> 02:43:11,040
utilities, and I don't think that we
would have to, um, farm that out or need

1936
02:43:09,040 --> 02:43:16,080
special counsel for that.
>> And then in addition to the first taxing

1937
02:43:13,520 --> 02:43:22,160
district, we also represent the WPCA,
town of Orange. And um like I mentioned

1938
02:43:19,520 --> 02:43:26,640
earlier um we've also done some work for
the water company in the city of New

1939
02:43:24,240 --> 02:43:30,960
Britain as well. Um and that one dealt
more as I mentioned with the US Army

1940
02:43:28,399 --> 02:43:34,640
Corps of Engineers. And um I don't want
to for the details, but it was an

1941
02:43:32,960 --> 02:43:39,280
interesting project because originally
the US Army Corps said that they would

1942
02:43:37,280 --> 02:43:44,800
not accept a certain type of restrictive
covenant and that this district, the

1943
02:43:43,120 --> 02:43:48,640
Northeast District for the Army Corps
said that they don't usually consider

1944
02:43:46,720 --> 02:43:53,279
restrictive covenants because they find
them to be uninforceable or they find

1945
02:43:50,880 --> 02:43:58,479
them to be less enforceable than um some
sort of easement conservation easement.

1946
02:43:56,399 --> 02:44:03,200
However, after several months of going
back and forth with them and explaining

1947
02:44:00,399 --> 02:44:07,920
the laws in Connecticut and how a
conservation ement is actually also

1948
02:44:05,120 --> 02:44:12,560
enforceable by the AG, we were actually
able to come to an consensus and

1949
02:44:10,000 --> 02:44:18,240
agreement to create and draft and
implement a conservation or a

1950
02:44:15,200 --> 02:44:24,520
restrictive covenant. Um, which as
mentioned is uncommon for the US Army

1951
02:44:20,319 --> 02:44:24,520
Corps at least in this district.

1952
02:44:24,960 --> 02:44:32,319
» Okay. Because your firm represents other
municipalities and public entities, how

1953
02:44:30,000 --> 02:44:36,560
will you identify and manage potential
conflicts involving Watertown? If a

1954
02:44:34,960 --> 02:44:40,399
conflict prevented your firm from
handling the significant matter, how

1955
02:44:38,800 --> 02:44:44,200
would you help the town maintain
continuity of representation?

1956
02:44:46,720 --> 02:44:55,600
» Good question. Um,
I'm not really sure how a how a legal

1957
02:44:52,800 --> 02:45:03,760
conflict of interest would
arise, although um

1958
02:44:59,760 --> 02:45:09,600
we are very sensitive to potential
conflicts of of interest. Um, I was

1959
02:45:07,279 --> 02:45:18,000
actually just talking to
a partner this morning um on an issue

1960
02:45:15,760 --> 02:45:24,479
involving a potential conflict of
interest with a municipal client, but it

1961
02:45:20,800 --> 02:45:32,960
was um it was a a former client that was
an owner of a particular property uh

1962
02:45:27,120 --> 02:45:40,399
within our jurisdiction. Um I think um
if you know a conflict should come up I

1963
02:45:37,520 --> 02:45:46,960
think that um you know the process would
be you know first uh taking a look at it

1964
02:45:44,000 --> 02:45:54,399
analyzing the conflict speaking with
with you with the client um and you know

1965
02:45:51,439 --> 02:45:58,160
analyzing whether um that's something
that's you know we could render the the

1966
02:45:56,080 --> 02:46:03,680
the legal opinion we would come up with
the opinion in the first instance, but

1967
02:46:00,080 --> 02:46:11,520
discuss it with you and uh if it does
become, you know, insurmountable, I

1968
02:46:06,080 --> 02:46:17,200
think that we can um try to find um a
very qualified, reasonably priced um

1969
02:46:14,960 --> 02:46:21,760
attorney that could step in and and
handle the matter. I mean, we work, one

1970
02:46:19,120 --> 02:46:31,120
of the benefits um with our firm is that
we we routinely work with a lot of um

1971
02:46:26,479 --> 02:46:35,359
municipal uh law firms um around the
area. So, I don't think that would be be

1972
02:46:33,920 --> 02:46:39,359
difficult.
I I'm just wondering though because you

1973
02:46:37,120 --> 02:46:43,359
mentioned since we work with a lot of
other municipalities. I I don't think in

1974
02:46:41,520 --> 02:46:49,040
my entire career I've ever been in a
situation where there's been a conflict

1975
02:46:45,920 --> 02:46:54,800
» between two municipalities. So I I don't
know if there was something specific you

1976
02:46:50,960 --> 02:47:00,160
were thinking thinking about. Um
>> well we we did have our big lawsuit

1977
02:46:57,840 --> 02:47:04,479
between Waterberry and Watertown over
our our um water rates. So I think that

1978
02:47:02,960 --> 02:47:07,200
maybe was one of the reasons why we
developed

1979
02:47:05,439 --> 02:47:10,960
» and you mentioned your question you do
work from Milberry which is nearby. So

1980
02:47:09,359 --> 02:47:13,760
if there was any type of
>> Yeah.

1981
02:47:11,600 --> 02:47:17,760
» Yeah. If there you know sometime
obviously in a situation like that and

1982
02:47:15,760 --> 02:47:22,800
you've got major litigation you can't
wave a conflict. There are situations

1983
02:47:19,760 --> 02:47:25,279
where conflicts can be waved. So that
you know in the first instance is

1984
02:47:24,399 --> 02:47:30,000
something
>> you would look at. But yes, of course,

1985
02:47:27,600 --> 02:47:33,520
as Brian said, then if it couldn't be
waved, we would have to get competent

1986
02:47:32,479 --> 02:47:39,760
counsel.
>> Yeah. The outside to to represent town.

1987
02:47:38,080 --> 02:47:43,600
» You've addressed a fair amount of this
next question, but I'll read it and

1988
02:47:41,760 --> 02:47:48,000
please add anything else in that you
haven't covered quite yet. So, beyond

1989
02:47:46,080 --> 02:47:52,960
your hourly rates and fee structure,
what practices would you use to control

1990
02:47:50,080 --> 02:47:56,960
the town's legal expenses? How would you
flag a matter that's becoming more

1991
02:47:54,720 --> 02:48:02,920
costly than anticipated? And what
billing detail and periodic reporting

1992
02:47:59,200 --> 02:48:02,920
would the town receive?

1993
02:48:05,359 --> 02:48:13,200
You know, I mean, not to repeat myself,
but I think one of the best um

1994
02:48:10,399 --> 02:48:18,319
you know, measures for for cost
effectiveness would be, you know, a a

1995
02:48:16,160 --> 02:48:22,080
heavy measure of of proactive lawyering.
I mean, I think really just kind of

1996
02:48:20,000 --> 02:48:27,520
getting ahead of those issues. We
already touched on this. Litigation is

1997
02:48:23,760 --> 02:48:33,120
expensive. Um, if it can be avoided,
um, it's probably best for the town. So,

1998
02:48:30,399 --> 02:48:38,240
that would probably be my primary
measure of of cost effectiveness. And I

1999
02:48:36,720 --> 02:48:42,800
think this actually this question, this
answer is going to bleed in to a lot of

2000
02:48:40,319 --> 02:48:46,560
previous uh answers, but I think it's
also just sort of understanding. I think

2001
02:48:44,880 --> 02:48:52,160
one measure would be just understanding
what those issues are. you know, those

2002
02:48:49,920 --> 02:48:58,800
those hot button issues are that are
that have come up or are, you know,

2003
02:48:54,080 --> 02:49:03,439
potentially going to to come up. Um, and
then the other things, like I said,

2004
02:49:00,319 --> 02:49:08,720
which is just, you know, um
um you know, having courtesy, you know,

2005
02:49:06,560 --> 02:49:15,439
5 10 minute conversations with the town
manager over something. I don't I

2006
02:49:12,080 --> 02:49:21,600
personally don't want um you know the
chair or the town manager to ever like

2007
02:49:18,399 --> 02:49:28,080
feel shy about reaching out to me like
one of those ways could be you know well

2008
02:49:24,399 --> 02:49:33,200
geez you know is he going to bill me for
this you know very short question like

2009
02:49:30,960 --> 02:49:36,880
if that's if that's something that could
potentially if that five minute or

2010
02:49:34,720 --> 02:49:41,120
10-minute conversation is something that
could steer off a you know half a

2011
02:49:39,279 --> 02:49:50,880
million dollar lawsuit
or or you know grievance or appeal.

2012
02:49:45,920 --> 02:49:54,880
um then then I'm happy that we had that
understanding and that relationship

2013
02:49:52,640 --> 02:50:00,479
where you know he feels like he could
reach out to me

2014
02:49:56,560 --> 02:50:05,840
» um you know like I said even if it's
>> quote after hours because

2015
02:50:03,520 --> 02:50:10,399
we all I mean I travel to public
hearings at 9:00 at night so I I mean

2016
02:50:08,240 --> 02:50:18,399
there's not
there's not really too much um after

2017
02:50:13,840 --> 02:50:21,600
hours Maybe 2 am. That may be excessive.
>> Do you send out

2018
02:50:19,680 --> 02:50:25,120
» billing? Yes, we bill monthly.
>> Yeah. Okay.

2019
02:50:22,240 --> 02:50:29,680
» And we're very specific in our billing.
We put down all our time and say what

2020
02:50:27,840 --> 02:50:34,160
we're doing, you know, so that the
client is well aware of what they're

2021
02:50:32,160 --> 02:50:36,319
being built for.
>> Okay.

2022
02:50:34,880 --> 02:50:41,279
» Yeah. And I like to I mean one of the
things like to to just piggyback on that

2023
02:50:38,240 --> 02:50:46,240
like I like to you know put like you
know ray lines in a lot of my billing.

2024
02:50:43,680 --> 02:50:50,880
So if it is, you know, so that the
client's not receiving a bill for

2025
02:50:48,560 --> 02:50:55,600
generic telephone conference or generic
whatever meeting that they could

2026
02:50:53,120 --> 02:51:00,479
understand because I understand that the
person that I'm dealing with may not be

2027
02:50:57,279 --> 02:51:06,479
the same person that's actually cutting
the check or or auditing the bills,

2028
02:51:03,200 --> 02:51:09,279
right? So they all they all need to be
on the same page.

2029
02:51:08,240 --> 02:51:14,319
» Do you have a question?
>> Yes, I do. This would be for attorney

2030
02:51:11,600 --> 02:51:20,000
Tony Shelonberg regarding municipal
references. You yourself got a very

2031
02:51:17,120 --> 02:51:25,040
stellar reference from first select
woman Moore in Middbury.

2032
02:51:23,120 --> 02:51:30,000
And I'm not asking to comment on any
pending litigation, but what did you do

2033
02:51:27,840 --> 02:51:36,560
when you inherited
all the lawsuits involved regarding

2034
02:51:33,279 --> 02:51:42,720
people being sued as to rehiring not
hiring the terminated employees?

2035
02:51:40,319 --> 02:51:49,439
Okay. So, as I mentioned, I mean,
middlebury happens to be the

2036
02:51:45,600 --> 02:51:55,040
municipality where there is a lot of um
there are a lot of labor and employment

2037
02:51:51,279 --> 02:51:58,960
issues, which is why my partner does a
lot of work there and and she herself

2038
02:51:56,800 --> 02:52:06,240
has established, you know, that
relationship with with the first select

2039
02:52:01,120 --> 02:52:11,920
woman. Um, Middberry, like many uh uh
municipalities, is covered by insurance.

2040
02:52:09,359 --> 02:52:17,279
for a lot of these matters. So there is
insurance counsel

2041
02:52:14,319 --> 02:52:22,640
in some of these matters which may be
more sensitive or more complicated if

2042
02:52:20,560 --> 02:52:28,240
the first select woman and I have had a
conversation and decided that um my firm

2043
02:52:25,840 --> 02:52:35,840
should also come in as additional
counsel. We have done that occasionally.

2044
02:52:32,960 --> 02:52:41,920
Um, but we
it it really hasn't in in terms of the

2045
02:52:38,640 --> 02:52:46,560
litigation that was pending when I came
in.

2046
02:52:43,600 --> 02:52:51,520
I'm just trying to think. Um, other than
a couple of instances where my firm came

2047
02:52:48,960 --> 02:52:55,520
in as additional counsel, there was not
a reason to have to change any of the

2048
02:52:53,680 --> 02:53:01,040
outside counsel who was working on
matters. There's just a lot that's come

2049
02:52:58,000 --> 02:53:04,800
in in that sixmonth period that we've
had to, you know, figure out what to

2050
02:53:03,520 --> 02:53:09,520
what to do with.
>> We did pick up a few or quite a few um

2051
02:53:08,640 --> 02:53:15,120
FYIC matter.
>> Yeah, we've had right Jeremy and as I

2052
02:53:12,880 --> 02:53:19,840
said, my partner Courtney George are
working on a number of those matters.

2053
02:53:17,120 --> 02:53:24,880
» I may add specifically the main target
of the litigation was the premier's

2054
02:53:21,680 --> 02:53:32,240
first selement.
There there was uh one matter

2055
02:53:30,000 --> 02:53:38,160
yes that involved there are a couple of
matters actually at this point that

2056
02:53:34,800 --> 02:53:41,760
involve the former first selectman but
those matters are being handled by

2057
02:53:39,920 --> 02:53:45,680
insurance council.
>> Thank you.

2058
02:53:42,399 --> 02:53:51,040
» And quickly on the FIC matters we were
able to resolve all of the ones that we

2059
02:53:48,160 --> 02:53:56,240
received in either a dismissal or a
favorable stipulation.

2060
02:53:53,359 --> 02:54:03,200
Yeah, there have been I I think I have
to say Mberry

2061
02:53:58,160 --> 02:54:07,760
for a small town has a a lot of issues,
you know, a lot of legal issues um to

2062
02:54:06,080 --> 02:54:12,960
deal with. And I, you know, I believe
the first select woman is she's come in

2063
02:54:10,479 --> 02:54:18,479
with a charge to to handle a lot of
these things. She's she's very bright

2064
02:54:15,279 --> 02:54:24,479
and dedicated and detailed oriented and
is just working really hard and we work

2065
02:54:21,760 --> 02:54:29,680
well together in in dealing with a lot
of challenges that that the town has at

2066
02:54:26,880 --> 02:54:35,520
this point.
Municipal legal matters often span years

2067
02:54:32,000 --> 02:54:40,880
and personnel changes. What systems and
practices would your firm use to

2068
02:54:37,600 --> 02:54:45,920
document legal advice, key decisions,
open matters, and historical context so

2069
02:54:43,920 --> 02:54:50,880
Watertown preserves institutional
memory? How would you ensure a clean

2070
02:54:48,560 --> 02:54:54,960
handoff if the assigned attorney changes
or the engagement ends while

2071
02:54:52,960 --> 02:54:58,600
appropriately protecting privileged and
confidential material?

2072
02:55:00,479 --> 02:55:12,080
um you know when necessary we provide
written legal opinions. So those would

2073
02:55:06,399 --> 02:55:16,560
certainly be kept on file. Um and we if
if there was ever a change in counsel,

2074
02:55:14,319 --> 02:55:22,560
we would meet with that person, you
know, go through in detail all of the

2075
02:55:19,040 --> 02:55:29,359
history, answer the questions. Um we
keep our files. We we have in the past

2076
02:55:26,160 --> 02:55:34,720
several years uh to a large extent moved
from paper to electronic filing.

2077
02:55:32,399 --> 02:55:40,240
» Um and I think we've done a a very good
job with the um systems that we have

2078
02:55:38,560 --> 02:55:44,399
» keeping those electronic files which
also makes it a little easier because

2079
02:55:42,240 --> 02:55:50,160
you can email
um and yeah I I don't think we've we've

2080
02:55:47,680 --> 02:55:54,720
ever encountered any you know any issue
in that regard.

2081
02:55:52,640 --> 02:55:59,359
Yeah. No, I actually think that's an
excellent answer. I can tell you from

2082
02:55:56,560 --> 02:56:04,640
experience that when I took over
um

2083
02:56:01,359 --> 02:56:08,880
» for my Norwok municipal client um I
received you know with a trolley in my

2084
02:56:07,279 --> 02:56:16,319
office
um of you know about 200 of these.

2085
02:56:14,000 --> 02:56:20,000
» Now this is this is this doesn't involve
this is a zoning application that we

2086
02:56:17,920 --> 02:56:25,359
were handing off.
ordinarily we we at least I'll speak for

2087
02:56:22,479 --> 02:56:31,680
myself. I try not to keep paper files.
>> Um so I I I piggyback I uh second

2088
02:56:29,200 --> 02:56:38,720
Barbara's answer. I think you know it's
it's very important I think not only in

2089
02:56:35,760 --> 02:56:42,800
the way that you handle the matter but
the way that you paper the matter I

2090
02:56:40,560 --> 02:56:50,479
think is very important. Um, you know,
my my background is is um I would

2091
02:56:47,760 --> 02:56:54,240
outside of, you know, a a long history
of municipal law, I think, but really I

2092
02:56:52,399 --> 02:56:58,880
started with with land use
environmental. My my my degree is

2093
02:56:56,640 --> 02:57:03,040
environmental science. I started off my
career before as attorney as an

2094
02:57:00,560 --> 02:57:09,680
environmental scientist.
And um I've worked throughout the years

2095
02:57:06,319 --> 02:57:15,279
a lot in property law. And any property
attorney can tell you that the

2096
02:57:12,640 --> 02:57:18,880
importance of keeping great records
makes all the difference. Like think

2097
02:57:17,120 --> 02:57:22,319
about your your town clerk. I don't know
where they are, but think about your

2098
02:57:20,720 --> 02:57:25,439
town clerk's office. The land records
are a perfect example, right? You want

2099
02:57:24,000 --> 02:57:28,720
to be able to pick up that chain of
title and understand exactly what

2100
02:57:27,120 --> 02:57:32,800
happened. Does that always happen?
Hardly ever. I mean, they're usually

2101
02:57:30,319 --> 02:57:36,960
just a garbled mess, but that's because
some lawyer made it a garbled mess. So,

2102
02:57:35,439 --> 02:57:40,560
I think, you know, to piggyback on
Barbara's answer, I think it's, you

2103
02:57:38,800 --> 02:57:44,160
know, if you're papering the file, if
someone can be, and I told my municipal

2104
02:57:42,800 --> 02:57:47,120
client actually this the other day. I
was like, you know, the difference

2105
02:57:45,439 --> 02:57:52,160
between me is I'm going to be able to
send you a share file with 200 folders

2106
02:57:50,240 --> 02:57:56,800
that you'll be able to click on and see
exactly the work and the matter is

2107
02:57:54,399 --> 02:58:01,279
entitled something that's, you know,
descriptive, intuitive that you'll

2108
02:57:58,479 --> 02:58:06,240
understand and not something that, you
know, only I could understand, right?

2109
02:58:04,000 --> 02:58:09,920
Um, so I think keeping records, written
legal opinions I think are really

2110
02:58:07,760 --> 02:58:15,439
important, but also just, you know,
papering that file so that when you're

2111
02:58:12,399 --> 02:58:20,160
working on it, you're designing it so
that someone else can pick this up and

2112
02:58:18,319 --> 02:58:23,359
know exactly what was done and why it
was done.

2113
02:58:20,800 --> 02:58:28,640
» I I will just uh just add to that that,
you know, obviously we are a relatively

2114
02:58:25,359 --> 02:58:34,800
small firm. Uh, we were a startup. Can't
believe it's been I guess six and a half

2115
02:58:31,760 --> 02:58:40,960
years already. Um and for a long time we
were doing a lot of this ourselves. We

2116
02:58:37,439 --> 02:58:46,800
are very lucky that we happened to
finally hire a firm administrator who

2117
02:58:43,840 --> 02:58:53,200
started in April who is wonderful and I
have to say she has been instrumental in

2118
02:58:50,319 --> 02:58:56,960
helping us really get our act together
in terms of these kinds of

2119
02:58:55,200 --> 02:59:02,000
administrative
>> uh matters. So that's that's a huge plus

2120
02:58:59,439 --> 02:59:06,319
as well
>> to the chair.

2121
02:59:02,880 --> 02:59:12,080
» Yeah. Um so I I I love your answer. Um
one question define when necessary and

2122
02:59:09,439 --> 02:59:19,279
let me frame it. Um you're giving verbal
advice um to the town manager. Um but

2123
02:59:15,760 --> 02:59:24,399
the litigation continues over an
extracted period of time. like how do

2124
02:59:21,439 --> 02:59:29,479
you define when necessary to put it in
writing so that there is a record for

2125
02:59:26,160 --> 02:59:29,479
future generations?

2126
02:59:29,920 --> 02:59:37,200
» That's a good question. I mean, it's
it's a judgment call and it's going to

2127
02:59:34,399 --> 02:59:42,000
be different in different municipalities
because part of it depends on what the

2128
02:59:39,520 --> 02:59:47,120
client wants. Sometimes the client
doesn't always want written opinions.

2129
02:59:45,520 --> 02:59:53,439
Um,
so it just it's

2130
02:59:50,160 --> 02:59:57,120
it it it really it's hard to say. It
just depends on the situation and you

2131
02:59:55,600 --> 03:00:04,880
have to have a conversation with the
client and you know again just decide

2132
03:00:00,080 --> 03:00:06,000
what is desired. Um is it a really major
issue?

2133
03:00:05,760 --> 03:00:11,600
» Sure.
>> Is it a more minor issue?

2134
03:00:08,800 --> 03:00:17,040
» Um is it a controversial issue? Sure.
you know.

2135
03:00:13,840 --> 03:00:24,399
» So, so would you advise the client that
um having written advice and a major

2136
03:00:20,479 --> 03:00:27,439
protracted issue might be beneficial
long term

2137
03:00:26,399 --> 03:00:32,880
» theoretically,
>> right? But there are times when the

2138
03:00:29,200 --> 03:00:38,080
client will say I don't want it for,
>> you know, there could be different

2139
03:00:35,200 --> 03:00:42,800
reasons. Sometimes they're political
reasons, but the client doesn't want

2140
03:00:40,640 --> 03:00:46,399
that. It could just be feed sensitivity.
Like sometimes if something is a

2141
03:00:44,800 --> 03:00:49,920
discreet issue that's not going to pop
up again or like something doesn't need

2142
03:00:49,040 --> 03:00:57,520
to be
>> handed off to the next council or next

2143
03:00:54,000 --> 03:01:03,520
commission. Um then you know a client
may not want to pay for an hour and a

2144
03:00:59,760 --> 03:01:09,760
half written legal opinion. But I mean,
I think we just I've I've never had an

2145
03:01:05,760 --> 03:01:14,240
issue there because I think there are
I think we've done this long enough that

2146
03:01:11,520 --> 03:01:18,319
we know when something is probably best
if it's papered and we could we could

2147
03:01:16,720 --> 03:01:21,600
have that conversation. Whoever is
making that decision, we could have that

2148
03:01:19,920 --> 03:01:25,600
conversation. Listen, do you want do you
want a verbal answer or do you want me

2149
03:01:23,040 --> 03:01:28,960
to, you know, write a legal opinion? And
then, you know, I would hope that we

2150
03:01:27,439 --> 03:01:32,479
have the type of rapport where that
person that I'm speaking to could say,

2151
03:01:30,560 --> 03:01:36,240
"Well, what do you think?" And I'm happy
to give, you know, my opinion and my

2152
03:01:34,240 --> 03:01:41,279
experience about, you know, this type of
issue. Well, this might come up again,

2153
03:01:38,800 --> 03:01:44,000
you know, with a lot of some of the like
some of the foyer things, some of the

2154
03:01:42,560 --> 03:01:49,520
meeting things. There's some things that
just I mean, you know, every single new

2155
03:01:46,880 --> 03:01:54,080
municipality that I've representative
represented, like I can't help but

2156
03:01:51,840 --> 03:01:56,640
notice there are issues that just creep
up. Like as soon as I walk in the door,

2157
03:01:55,600 --> 03:01:59,439
they're like, could you write us a
blight ordinance? I'm like, I I don't

2158
03:01:58,080 --> 03:02:05,439
know why that's happened to me like five
different times, you know. Um,

2159
03:02:02,080 --> 03:02:10,800
» right. Or we'll hear, you know, started
in a new municipality and right away

2160
03:02:08,479 --> 03:02:15,680
notice something that is so obviously
wrong and then I'll be told, well, but

2161
03:02:13,760 --> 03:02:19,680
we've done it this way for 20 years. And
I'd say, okay, but nobody's complained

2162
03:02:17,439 --> 03:02:24,960
about it before and it's not right, so
let's let's fix it. But just, you know,

2163
03:02:22,319 --> 03:02:32,880
now with email, we're in a different
world for it's been many years now. But

2164
03:02:28,479 --> 03:02:36,000
so sometimes it might be verbal formal
legal opinion or it could be written

2165
03:02:34,800 --> 03:02:39,040
down in an email.
>> Sure.

2166
03:02:36,399 --> 03:02:44,160
» In a more simple form, but that's still
something that can be saved and somebody

2167
03:02:41,920 --> 03:02:49,840
can go back and reference later. So
that's that's kind of a middle ground,

2168
03:02:46,960 --> 03:02:52,880
right? lots of lots of legal advice is
going back and forth in emails all the

2169
03:02:52,560 --> 03:02:56,640
time
>> and sometimes it's a hybrid as well

2170
03:02:54,560 --> 03:03:02,240
where let's say I'm talking to the first
selectman or um mayor legal coun like

2171
03:03:00,080 --> 03:03:05,520
direct legal counsel for the town and at
the end of the conversation I might say

2172
03:03:03,840 --> 03:03:10,720
oh do you want me to send an email just
confirming what I said so give them the

2173
03:03:08,399 --> 03:03:16,479
opportunity especially if it's a much
smaller issue but still give them the

2174
03:03:13,520 --> 03:03:20,880
decision you know again if it's a boy
related question, maybe you don't need

2175
03:03:18,880 --> 03:03:26,880
every single answer relating FOYA
written down because it's reciting the

2176
03:03:23,840 --> 03:03:31,120
statute, but in other times you may want
to answer. So, giving them the option

2177
03:03:29,040 --> 03:03:33,279
during that initial conversation is
another

2178
03:03:32,399 --> 03:03:35,920
» Yeah.
>> Thank you.

2179
03:03:34,479 --> 03:03:40,399
» Thank you.
>> Okay. Based on your review of

2180
03:03:37,840 --> 03:03:45,439
Watertown's needs, what do you see as
the most important responsibilities of

2181
03:03:42,960 --> 03:03:50,000
the town attorney? And how would your
firm approach serving the council, town

2182
03:03:47,920 --> 03:03:53,000
manager, boards, commissions, and
departments?

2183
03:03:55,359 --> 03:04:00,560
» Um,
you know, I'll be honest. I personally

2184
03:03:58,560 --> 03:04:06,399
don't know a lot about the about the
town fairs or what's you know what's um

2185
03:04:03,760 --> 03:04:12,560
what are the hot and hot button issues
or what's you know the most important

2186
03:04:09,279 --> 03:04:18,960
um but like I said there are definitely
things that um you know seem to

2187
03:04:17,040 --> 03:04:26,560
um
be you know common with a lot of our

2188
03:04:21,760 --> 03:04:31,840
municipal clients. Um,
you know, I think the first thing that I

2189
03:04:28,319 --> 03:04:38,080
would probably do is just want to um,
you know, meet with the appropriate um,

2190
03:04:34,880 --> 03:04:43,600
leaders, department heads, um,
chairpeople and and and just decipher,

2191
03:04:41,760 --> 03:04:49,040
you know, what what are those issues
that I should be, you know, that I

2192
03:04:46,399 --> 03:04:53,279
should keep my ear to the ground about.
Um I don't want to come in with any I

2193
03:04:51,520 --> 03:04:56,880
mean I think in some ways it's good you
know not to come in with any sort of

2194
03:04:55,279 --> 03:05:02,000
preconceived
notions. Um,

2195
03:04:59,840 --> 03:05:08,880
this issue came up a lot actually in my
in my Norwok job, my in-house job where

2196
03:05:06,479 --> 03:05:13,760
the council had considered at several
different times to pass a uh a residency

2197
03:05:12,000 --> 03:05:21,279
requirement for the for the town
attorneys and um I didn't I didn't live

2198
03:05:17,680 --> 03:05:28,080
in town and so I was um I was kind of
against that. But on a more um that's

2199
03:05:26,240 --> 03:05:35,760
the that's the personal level. on a more
like material objective level. What I

2200
03:05:31,439 --> 03:05:45,439
told the leaders was that um
I do a lot of um enforcement uh code

2201
03:05:41,040 --> 03:05:49,600
enforcement, you know, um at the time,
this was a while ago, but at the time,

2202
03:05:47,040 --> 03:05:53,439
you know, they had the the the city had
really bad

2203
03:05:51,920 --> 03:05:58,319
um
a real lack like zoning enforcement

2204
03:05:55,439 --> 03:06:02,080
effort and it was one of the you know,
they they knew my correct background. It

2205
03:06:00,720 --> 03:06:05,200
was one of the reasons that they that
they came in. When I went and spoke to

2206
03:06:03,760 --> 03:06:11,920
city council, one of the things that I
said is, "I'm currently suing 150

2207
03:06:08,800 --> 03:06:18,000
residents of this town." Um,
I don't necessarily agree that it would

2208
03:06:14,479 --> 03:06:24,960
be the best if I was in the congregation
with that person or if I was on the PTA

2209
03:06:21,279 --> 03:06:32,399
with that person or if I was um, you
know, a boy scout leader with that

2210
03:06:27,600 --> 03:06:40,080
person. Um sometimes I think that uh
objectivity could could benefit um

2211
03:06:37,680 --> 03:06:45,680
in a town attorney role. Um but
regardless you know um I think it is

2212
03:06:42,800 --> 03:06:49,840
important and I think that uh we could
easily u you know meet with the right

2213
03:06:48,080 --> 03:06:55,279
officials
um chairpersons officials department

2214
03:06:52,560 --> 03:07:00,240
heads and um
and and you know glean what are those

2215
03:06:58,080 --> 03:07:03,279
issues that that are either currently
important or that are you know coming

2216
03:07:01,840 --> 03:07:08,240
down the pike.
The other thing that we do um is we find

2217
03:07:06,640 --> 03:07:12,960
you know again we come into new
municipalities and there hasn't been a

2218
03:07:10,080 --> 03:07:17,680
lot of training um particularly like
when it comes to foya issues for the

2219
03:07:15,279 --> 03:07:22,399
land use boards you know what their
statutory obligations are and we have

2220
03:07:20,319 --> 03:07:27,840
done a lot of trainings with our
municipalities. Um, it's something that

2221
03:07:25,040 --> 03:07:33,600
we could offer to do right away for
whatever boards or commissions the town

2222
03:07:30,399 --> 03:07:38,960
thought that would be a good idea for or
um it's something that we have found

2223
03:07:35,359 --> 03:07:45,359
very helpful after a municipal election
because you always have new new people

2224
03:07:41,760 --> 03:07:50,160
coming in and just getting all the
boards and commissions up to speed on,

2225
03:07:48,399 --> 03:07:56,560
you know, what their responsibilities
are. um and being able to ask questions.

2226
03:07:53,920 --> 03:08:01,040
And so that's that's something we found
very helpful

2227
03:07:57,680 --> 03:08:06,479
» and we are aware of the ongoing water
company um and water authority um

2228
03:08:04,479 --> 03:08:11,040
dispute with Waterberry and that's one
of the reasons why we actually applied

2229
03:08:08,880 --> 03:08:15,600
for this RFP is because of especially
attorney McCann's experience working

2230
03:08:13,279 --> 03:08:21,279
with water authorities and water
companies. We thought we could come in

2231
03:08:17,840 --> 03:08:28,800
and help as much as possible to,
you know, correct the ship that's

2232
03:08:24,479 --> 03:08:34,319
currently um a float and to help improve
um the outcome and to improve the city

2233
03:08:31,920 --> 03:08:39,520
overall. And touching on trainings,
we've also done ethics trainings in some

2234
03:08:36,399 --> 03:08:45,600
of our towns and we regularly do other
sorts of um events out in public and

2235
03:08:43,040 --> 03:08:50,479
lectures out in public. Um, if any of
you are going to the CCM conference in

2236
03:08:47,920 --> 03:08:55,120
October, I'll be doing a presentation
about the first amendment, first

2237
03:08:52,160 --> 03:08:58,720
amendment auditors and civility towards
municipality or municipal employees and

2238
03:08:57,520 --> 03:09:03,439
officials.
>> And one issue that I know is facing all

2239
03:09:01,200 --> 03:09:07,760
municipalities across Connecticut
because I just reviewed the

2240
03:09:04,560 --> 03:09:11,520
intergovernmental report today was
staffing shortages.

2241
03:09:09,760 --> 03:09:16,240
And
something that I'm cognizant of when I'm

2242
03:09:14,240 --> 03:09:21,200
helping municipal clients and especially
those with smaller departments or where

2243
03:09:18,240 --> 03:09:25,200
there are gaps in employment is how best
can I help

2244
03:09:23,279 --> 03:09:31,760
the departments that do have those
staffing shortages. How best can I make

2245
03:09:28,720 --> 03:09:35,680
sure that I can help ensure that they
are responding to a foir, that they are

2246
03:09:34,080 --> 03:09:40,640
gathering all the necessary documents
for litigation or to help complete an

2247
03:09:38,880 --> 03:09:46,800
application through a state
administrative proceeding?

2248
03:09:43,359 --> 03:09:54,720
» Yeah. Well, we just if we just um you
know, I think we we we you know, walk

2249
03:09:49,520 --> 03:09:59,120
the walk. Um, like I just got done um
serving a stint on the my town's charter

2250
03:09:57,120 --> 03:10:04,080
vision commission. Um, a lot of people
said, "Why do you want to do at night?

2251
03:10:00,399 --> 03:10:08,960
What you do during the day?"
>> Yeah, good point. Um, and then before

2252
03:10:07,120 --> 03:10:14,399
that, five years on the conservation
commission. Um but you know we enjoy

2253
03:10:12,479 --> 03:10:19,359
this stuff and uh just like what
trainings like Jeremy I think this is my

2254
03:10:17,200 --> 03:10:25,040
third or fourth year teaching up at the
Connecticut um assessor school up at

2255
03:10:22,399 --> 03:10:28,960
stores. Um
next month we're going to teach at the

2256
03:10:26,479 --> 03:10:35,960
Lichfield County Assessors.
Um

2257
03:10:30,640 --> 03:10:35,960
you know we we we enjoy it. It's uh

2258
03:10:36,080 --> 03:10:43,439
yeah it's fun.
I have one final question for you. Um,

2259
03:10:41,520 --> 03:10:47,800
is there anything we haven't asked you
that you think the council should know?

2260
03:10:48,560 --> 03:10:52,120
» Something really embarrassing.

2261
03:10:55,200 --> 03:11:02,439
» And do any of the town council members
have any

2262
03:10:58,880 --> 03:11:02,439
additional questions?

2263
03:11:03,439 --> 03:11:08,319
» I think
>> Yeah, we just want to thank you. Thank

2264
03:11:06,240 --> 03:11:13,600
you for the opportunity. Thank you for
your for your time and great questions.

2265
03:11:12,960 --> 03:11:17,600
Um
>> yeah, you're really covered.

2266
03:11:16,080 --> 03:11:22,640
» The gamut.
>> It was interesting though how we kind of

2267
03:11:19,200 --> 03:11:28,000
predicted we got ahead of ourselves.
>> I think I think one thing that

2268
03:11:26,319 --> 03:11:32,640
attorney McCann highlighted a little bit
was

2269
03:11:29,680 --> 03:11:36,319
Brian worked inhouse in Norwalk. of you
work directly for the city and before

2270
03:11:34,479 --> 03:11:41,040
law school I worked for the town of
North David Haven. So we have as

2271
03:11:39,359 --> 03:11:45,040
non-legal been their department of
public works and worked with their water

2272
03:11:43,200 --> 03:11:52,080
department and public regional public
health authority and their land um

2273
03:11:48,240 --> 03:11:56,160
zoning offices. So having that
experience as well of working for the

2274
03:11:54,000 --> 03:12:02,080
municipality directly,
I hope at least it comes off that

2275
03:11:59,680 --> 03:12:06,080
I understand some of the struggles that
municipal employees have and how many

2276
03:12:04,479 --> 03:12:10,960
regulations there are and how many
statutes there are and how difficult is

2277
03:12:08,240 --> 03:12:16,800
to keep track of everything. And with
that background, at least I believe that

2278
03:12:14,160 --> 03:12:21,439
when I go to board selectment meeting, I
instead of just reading the statute,

2279
03:12:18,560 --> 03:12:24,960
it's or a town council meeting or any
sort of board or commission, instead of

2280
03:12:23,120 --> 03:12:30,479
reading the statute directly, I might
cite it, but then explain it in a way

2281
03:12:27,520 --> 03:12:35,840
that everybody will understand and just
to ensure that everybody's on the same

2282
03:12:33,040 --> 03:12:39,359
page because public service isn't
necessarily

2283
03:12:37,680 --> 03:12:44,560
knowing every single statute and
regulation. But instead, it's wanting to

2284
03:12:42,160 --> 03:12:49,600
help people. And I believe as
>> municipal attorneys, we try to strive

2285
03:12:47,279 --> 03:12:53,920
every day to help our municipalities and
their residents as best as we can.

2286
03:12:52,399 --> 03:12:59,600
» There's only one other thing I'd like to
add. just it just occurred to me because

2287
03:12:56,399 --> 03:13:05,680
I I guess nobody contacted Greenwich,
which which is fine, but um I have a

2288
03:13:03,359 --> 03:13:10,720
little bit of a different position there
because I am town attorney, but

2289
03:13:07,680 --> 03:13:15,520
Greenwich does have an in-house legal
department.

2290
03:13:11,840 --> 03:13:19,680
» So, I also am the department head. I
supervise that um entire legal

2291
03:13:18,640 --> 03:13:23,359
department
>> and there are five assistant town

2292
03:13:21,600 --> 03:13:30,160
attorneys
>> um two parallegals and three staff

2293
03:13:27,359 --> 03:13:35,040
people. So that that has also given that
that's actually been something that I

2294
03:13:32,239 --> 03:13:40,880
have enjoyed having that kind of
different experience but it also has

2295
03:13:37,840 --> 03:13:46,560
given me as Jeremy mentioned real
insight to the workings of

2296
03:13:44,399 --> 03:13:50,720
a municipality from a different
perspective than just the pure legal

2297
03:13:49,680 --> 03:13:54,080
perspective.
>> I think those are actually excellent

2298
03:13:52,239 --> 03:13:59,439
answers. I'll I'll piggyback on that.
Um, you know, when I started off, I was

2299
03:13:57,120 --> 03:14:05,680
the environmental consultant that was
making wetland applications to the

2300
03:14:01,279 --> 03:14:09,920
wetland commission and then I became the
uh conservation compliance officer that

2301
03:14:07,920 --> 03:14:14,560
was receiving the applications and
giving the applicants a hard time and

2302
03:14:11,520 --> 03:14:19,040
then I went to, you know, on the inland
wetlands commission that was

2303
03:14:16,080 --> 03:14:23,520
deliberating over the application. Um,
and then after I lost a couple inland

2304
03:14:22,160 --> 03:14:27,279
wetland appeals, I said, "You know what?
I want to be the attorney that defends

2305
03:14:25,200 --> 03:14:32,640
the town in the inland wetlands appeals
because I'm I want to win them." Um, but

2306
03:14:30,479 --> 03:14:36,160
that's I think that was actually that's
really good points. I I mean I think it

2307
03:14:34,239 --> 03:14:42,720
gives you incredible experience to sort
of you know see it from every

2308
03:14:39,520 --> 03:14:48,800
angle and also to sit on the panel
that's deciding it like to give you that

2309
03:14:45,120 --> 03:14:52,720
understanding of like you know
these folks don't want you know they

2310
03:14:51,279 --> 03:14:56,399
want to exercise their own judgment.
They're smart people. They you know they

2311
03:14:54,880 --> 03:15:00,160
just
they just need a little bit of guidance

2312
03:14:58,000 --> 03:15:04,000
in certain areas where they may not be
an expert. So that you know so make sure

2313
03:15:02,160 --> 03:15:07,439
that they're not doing because none of
them want to do the wrong thing and if

2314
03:15:05,760 --> 03:15:11,520
they do it's probably inadvertent and
they just need you know some steering

2315
03:15:09,600 --> 03:15:17,040
but to understand it from that side of
the table I think or all sides of the

2316
03:15:13,680 --> 03:15:22,640
table I think is really uh important.
>> One final example I guess to go back to

2317
03:15:19,840 --> 03:15:27,920
council member Ryan's question dealing
with retention of records and historical

2318
03:15:25,439 --> 03:15:33,439
knowledge. When I worked for the town of
North Haven, one of my assignments was

2319
03:15:29,840 --> 03:15:38,399
to scan and digitize every single septic
system in the town

2320
03:15:36,080 --> 03:15:43,359
» and we were in the basement of the
regional public health authority and

2321
03:15:41,439 --> 03:15:48,399
they were all on the thinnest piece of
paper. A lot of them were crumpled up,

2322
03:15:45,520 --> 03:15:53,760
ripped apart, but we did it. We
digitized it. And it's funny enough,

2323
03:15:51,200 --> 03:15:57,120
this week I got a text from someone that
I worked with who's now at a private

2324
03:15:55,520 --> 03:16:02,160
consulting firm that does some work for
the town of North Haven. And she texted

2325
03:15:59,600 --> 03:16:06,640
me and said, "Do you remember when we
did this?" And of course, I said, "Yes."

2326
03:16:04,319 --> 03:16:11,439
And then she said, "Well, I actually
just needed to request those digitized

2327
03:16:08,800 --> 03:16:19,120
copies to help the town with their um
storm water plan." So we at least for me

2328
03:16:16,000 --> 03:16:24,319
and I believe that Brian and Barbara
agree is we understand from both sides

2329
03:16:22,160 --> 03:16:28,239
the importance of keeping records and to
building a record especially in a zoning

2330
03:16:26,319 --> 03:16:33,760
context where you want a robust record
to support the town or city's um

2331
03:16:30,800 --> 03:16:38,880
decision or in historical records as
well. It's vital that we know where the

2332
03:16:36,640 --> 03:16:43,359
septic septic systems are if there's a
leak or where there might be um a sear

2333
03:16:42,720 --> 03:16:45,600
connection.
>> Yeah.

2334
03:16:44,080 --> 03:16:48,880
» So,
>> and it's almost always there. It's

2335
03:16:47,120 --> 03:16:52,960
almost always there, right? It's just
that like, you know, one of the things

2336
03:16:50,880 --> 03:16:59,120
that I do on training is like, you know,
when you're when you're deliberating,

2337
03:16:56,479 --> 03:17:05,040
discuss the things that were discussed
during the hearing. you know, like, you

2338
03:17:01,200 --> 03:17:09,760
know, repeat those items, you know, that
are going to support your decision.

2339
03:17:07,760 --> 03:17:13,359
Like, is it a little bit weird to kind
of like repeat back what you you know,

2340
03:17:11,840 --> 03:17:19,600
what you heard or what you said during
the last three hearings? Yeah. Okay. I

2341
03:17:17,120 --> 03:17:25,279
agree. It may be, but you know, you have
you you you really need to do it. And uh

2342
03:17:23,279 --> 03:17:29,040
um and they, you know, like I said, they
all they all want what's best for the

2343
03:17:27,439 --> 03:17:33,239
town. They all mean really well, but
they just need that little persuasion.

2344
03:17:33,439 --> 03:17:38,960
» Any other questions or comments from
town council?

2345
03:17:37,359 --> 03:17:43,520
» Seeing none, thank you for coming.
>> Thank you so much.

2346
03:17:41,359 --> 03:17:48,880
» And did we go over our time?
>> That is our third and last interview for

2347
03:17:46,080 --> 03:17:52,800
tonight. So, um, at our next town
council meeting, we'll probably have

2348
03:17:50,399 --> 03:17:58,239
more discussion and we'll go from there
as far as what plans are for selecting a

2349
03:17:55,840 --> 03:18:00,000
new town attorney. Is there a motion to
adjurnn?

2350
03:17:59,120 --> 03:18:06,200
» Motion to
>> second. Second. All in favor? Have a

2351
03:18:03,040 --> 03:18:06,200
good night.