[0:11] It's 6:32. I'm going to bring the
[0:12] meeting order. Would you like to stand
[0:16] alone?
[0:21] I pledge algiance to the flag of the
[0:25] United States of America and to the
[0:27] republic for which it stands. One nation
[0:31] under God, indivisible, with liberty and
[0:35] justice for all. Thank you.
[0:40] Agenda review. Is there anything on the
[0:42] agenda that anyone would like to change
[0:44] or move around?
[0:47] Um, is this a point to add for future
[0:49] agenda items, too? Was that No, we'll do
[0:52] that when we get that. Okay. All right.
[0:56] Okay. Okay. Comments from any select
[0:59] board members. Anything not on the
[1:01] agenda? I just want to say as I just
[1:04] said to Kelly, I have seen more of the
[1:06] sheriff's department in the last nine
[1:09] days than I have seen
[1:12] of our previous chief in many years many
[1:14] years.
[1:16] which makes me very happy.
[1:20] Manager, anything? Oh, I can reserve our
[1:23] report. Thank you. Citizens, anything
[1:26] not on the agenda?
[1:29] Mrs. Erison. Oh, yes. Erison. Uh, Chip
[1:34] Co wanted me to uh make sure that
[1:36] everyone knew that he had written a
[1:38] comprehensive history of the
[1:40] Weathersteel Veterans Memorial Monument,
[1:42] the Monument Committee, and the Veterans
[1:43] Committee. copies are available at the
[1:46] library and at the historical society,
[1:49] but the library's copy will be the one
[1:51] that will circulate. Anyway, he just
[1:53] wanted me to to make sure that everyone
[1:55] knew that all questions can be answered.
[1:59] Thank you.
[2:01] Anybody else?
[2:05] Review minutes from the previous
[2:06] meeting.
[2:11] Um, yes, there were
[2:15] Oh, there's one place where it says I'm
[2:16] Mr. Henderson.
[2:19] And there's one of the fireworks display
[2:25] calls for fireworks right there. Um,
[2:29] then there was something else that was
[2:32] also not grievously well, but it's
[2:36] sitting next to a long
[2:46] Motion to approve minutes. I am approve
[2:51] that minutes to mister. No m
[2:56] we approve the minutes of May 27th,
[3:00] 2025.
[3:03] There a second. I second.
[3:07] Any discussion?
[3:10] All those in favor? I I
[3:14] Oh, I know. Um,
[3:17] is Janessa Road is that still
[3:19] recognition
[3:34] fireworks display?
[3:36] Did everyone have an opportunity to
[3:38] review the memo? Any questions for me?
[3:44] Um, not in terms of this particular case
[3:47] and any broader question of fireworks.
[3:49] So, let's do this one. Okay.
[3:56] Great. Uh, the recommendation is to deny
[3:58] the application.
[4:08] It was graduation tonight. Um, yeah, he
[4:12] wasn't able to make it over here. I did
[4:15] I have been in communication with him
[4:17] and I told him I'd give him an update
[4:19] tomorrow. So
[4:27] did he did he have any comments or
[4:29] questions regarding the
[4:32] questions that
[4:34] you you post in the in the the memo?
[4:36] Yeah, there has been ongoing
[4:38] communication. Um we did a lot of
[4:40] research and um what we found is that
[4:43] Springfield is also in a similar issue.
[4:45] They haven't approved any applications
[4:47] this year. After the Supreme Court
[4:49] ruling, evidence discovered that um the
[4:53] select board only has the authority to
[4:55] approve uh supervised public displays.
[5:00] Um and this is for a a private display.
[5:08] The implication being the others can't
[5:11] be held or we just don't have any
[5:13] control of them.
[5:15] Um, according to the law, the select
[5:17] board can only approve public displays.
[5:22] This isn't a public display.
[5:37] So in in the second paragraph there, in
[5:40] accordance with 20 VSA 3132, it has been
[5:43] interpreted by the Vermont Cycling Court
[5:45] and also as guidance from the Vermont
[5:47] Division of Fire Safety directs the town
[5:50] is only authorized under title 20 of the
[5:52] Vermont statutes to issue permits for
[5:54] supervised public displays of fireworks.
[5:59] Um the way that the town attorney is
[6:01] interpreting that um is fairs holiday
[6:05] celebrations or other public gatherings,
[6:10] but this is a private display. Correct.
[6:13] So that doesn't apply.
[6:16] No. Okay.
[6:19] Um can you I understand
[6:24] back up. I think that Yeah,
[6:30] that the fact that the insurance doesn't
[6:32] appear to cover damages from from
[6:36] fireworks.
[6:38] He did contact his insurance carrier and
[6:41] he's waiting to hear back from them on
[6:43] whether they would cover it.
[6:45] And I think based on what I've
[6:50] what we've been talking about with the
[6:52] town attorney and also other towns, if
[6:55] the town granted the firework
[6:58] defleation,
[6:59] it wouldn't be following the letter of
[7:02] the law. And if something did happen, we
[7:04] could be at risk of liability if the
[7:09] damages were beyond with an insurance
[7:11] cover. So, which letter of the law would
[7:13] we not be in compliance with if we
[7:15] approved this application? It's not a
[7:18] public a supervised public display, but
[7:20] it's not a public display. It's a
[7:22] private party, right? Correct. I'm I'm
[7:25] confused. So, it's the town only has the
[7:28] authority to grant uh firework permits
[7:32] for supervised public displays. Oh, so
[7:35] we can't approve any application for
[7:36] private. Correct.
[7:41] But can we prohibit it? And is that
[7:43] based on I'm sorry. Is that based on the
[7:47] recent Supreme Court ruling? It was
[7:49] certainly our This person didn't stand a
[7:52] chance at complying because our policy
[7:54] says nothing about that. That is
[7:56] correct. Um and I did go over that with
[7:59] the town attorney and the town attorney
[8:01] did issue additional guidance for that
[8:03] if you'd like me to.
[8:06] Well, I would. Yes. Okay.
[8:09] because this isn't in the Supreme Court
[8:11] decision is not in the state statute
[8:13] which as of today said it was current to
[8:16] 2024. So was this Supreme Court decision
[8:19] since then? It was the 2020
[8:24] Supreme Court ruling the town of
[8:26] Colchester um versus
[8:35] certainly the language supervised public
[8:38] displays is not in the state statute.
[8:40] It's not in our policy.
[8:42] So
[8:44] given that it's my understanding we
[8:46] approved this application last year. I
[8:50] there was no approval for an application
[8:52] last year. There wasn't an application
[8:53] last year. I think it's a
[8:55] misunderstanding.
[8:57] Okay. So the fireworks that we set up
[8:59] last year were done without a permit.
[9:00] Correct. Yep. I feel better now. So
[9:05] according to town attorney, it looks
[9:07] like many of the past applications had
[9:09] Northstar fireworks as the operator and
[9:11] they had insurance. So if those were for
[9:13] public displays, I think those permits
[9:16] were appropriate. Even if they were not,
[9:18] the Supreme Court has highlighted that
[9:20] the statute is very poorly written and
[9:22] lacks clarity. So the town would not be
[9:24] bound to approve similar permits going
[9:26] forward just because it may have done so
[9:28] in error in the past.
[9:30] I I think that makes more sense. the
[9:32] fact that this is not a public display.
[9:35] I wouldn't bring into this because I
[9:37] don't think our policy or state statute
[9:40] says that.
[9:42] Yes. And and we both uh both the town
[9:45] attorney and I do believe the policy
[9:47] needs to be updated. Um so we're going
[9:49] to be bringing that forward. There's
[9:52] also been another fireworks application.
[9:54] We're working with um with that
[9:57] gentleman to determine whether his is a
[9:59] supervised public display or not. And if
[10:02] it is, we'll be bringing that
[10:03] application forward. So the lack of a
[10:06] competent operator. Yep. That's one.
[10:09] This despite there being no definition
[10:11] of that, but no one has been identified
[10:13] in this application as being
[10:15] responsible.
[10:18] Northstar fireworks in the past has been
[10:20] the competent operator for but in this
[10:22] application they're not mentioned. Nope.
[10:24] So okay. and the lack of insurance and
[10:28] we did not have police sign off on this
[10:30] application. If I recall, we had fire
[10:32] department but not police. Yes, that is correct.
[10:37] [Music]
[10:38] I had Josh over here first hand up.
[10:44] Um my question is is state law is there
[10:46] a state law that prohibits any type of
[10:49] fireworks that are personal use not for
[10:51] public use? Yes. So if we
[10:55] it's just as simple as I'm gonna pull
[10:58] this up here.
[11:01] So if you go to just Google are
[11:04] fireworks legal in Vermont. Um what you
[11:08] find is in Vermont fireworks are
[11:11] generally illegal with the exception of
[11:12] permitted supervised public displays. Um
[11:16] the use, possession, sale and
[11:17] distribution of fireworks are only legal
[11:19] after a permit is obtained for a public
[11:21] display. And then if you type in
[11:23] somewhere like Maine, yes, consumer
[11:26] fireworks are legal in Hampshire.
[11:29] Yes, Mr. Palmer. So there's a difference
[11:32] even when you just search.
[11:36] Uh so just to jump in here, talking
[11:38] about police approval, doesn't sound
[11:40] like anything that I would sign off on.
[11:42] It sounds like it's uh going to cause a
[11:45] lot of headaches. People in town
[11:46] generally complain about fireworks that
[11:48] are not part of a public display during
[11:50] late July 4th or those type of things.
[11:52] We get a lot of complaints on that. And
[11:54] uh just as Brandon said there, fireworks
[11:57] are not legal to uh shoot off or possess
[12:03] a town permit. in the
[12:06] however where Turby is is not to me it
[12:10] doesn't sound like it meets the
[12:12] you know the category of a public
[12:15] display and stuff. So my advice is law
[12:18] enforcement for your community would be
[12:20] just to exist and unfortunately it's too
[12:23] bad for them
[12:26] I don't think it would make sense to
[12:27] approve it. soon.
[12:31] So, you're saying he won't sign this
[12:33] application?
[12:34] From the little bit I know, it sounds
[12:36] like it doesn't meet that
[12:40] um laid out in statute and I miss what
[12:42] the Supreme Court decision was. Branch,
[12:44] what did they say in the Supreme Court
[12:46] decision? So, the um let me pull that up
[12:49] real quick. Can I just finish my
[12:51] thought? I just our application, our
[12:54] policy requires sign off from police and
[12:57] fire. And if we have fire, but if the
[13:00] police department is not going to sign
[13:02] the application, then that does give us
[13:03] very clear grounds without getting into
[13:06] the Supreme Court decision on this
[13:08] application or denying. Okay. I'm
[13:12] uncomfortable denying it on the grounds
[13:14] of something that none of us had seen
[13:16] before tonight and certainly this
[13:17] applicant was not aware of. I think but
[13:20] state statute is very clear that state
[13:22] statute does not reference the Supreme
[13:24] Court decision. Okay, sorry. But state
[13:27] statute does say that the select board
[13:29] only has the authority to approve
[13:30] supervised public displays. I did not
[13:32] find that language in 3132.
[13:36] But so case law and statute are two
[13:38] different things. But the Supreme Court
[13:40] so case law is a a court interpreting
[13:43] the statute and if so if their
[13:45] interpretation
[13:47] uh which happened after the statute was
[13:50] passed if they say u is for public
[13:53] displays that's the interpretation of
[13:55] the law and that's how the law ends up
[13:57] being enforced. So even though the
[13:58] statute has some uh
[14:02] vagness there with the Supreme Court
[14:04] making a ruling on it, that's how that's
[14:06] called case law. And so that's how
[14:08] legally then um law enforcement in the
[14:12] lands to interpret how that statute is
[14:15] to be enforced. And I beg forgiveness.
[14:17] Under item uh B, the state fire marshall
[14:21] may adopt reasonable rules for granting
[14:23] permits for supervised public displays
[14:25] of fires. It's not under the part that
[14:27] applies to what we can do. So that's why
[14:29] I blanked that out, but it is there. So
[14:32] anyway, I I'm just I want to be very
[14:34] clear on if I vote to deny this that
[14:37] it's on
[14:38] grounds that are quite solid and clear
[14:40] that the applicant is not able to comply
[14:42] with our current policy in our
[14:44] application.
[14:48] John
[14:55] fireworks for about 13 years for
[14:57] Northstar fireworks. And most all the
[15:00] shows that I've done have been display
[15:02] which are the bigger stuff. Uh once in a
[15:05] while Northstar does do class, it's
[15:07] called class C and 1.3 which is the
[15:11] display. Um, I took the time because it
[15:14] interested me because of uh my
[15:16] association with Northstar to try to
[15:18] follow this and see what u interpret it.
[15:22] So I contacted U Landon Wheeler with
[15:25] second command at fire uh safety in
[15:28] water and I asked him about public
[15:31] versus private and his comment this is
[15:34] going to be pretty much a quote. If it's
[15:36] in front of an audience it's public. He
[15:39] said, he said, "We do not consider any
[15:42] show private."
[15:45] What he said. Um, but with that said, I
[15:48] will say that Vermont state law has not
[15:51] been changed in a long time. I'm not
[15:54] even sure when the the statute that's in
[15:56] force right now was written, but it it
[15:59] and it's and it's lacking. And uh
[16:01] there's been some efforts in the past to
[16:03] get it modified so that it was a little
[16:05] cleaner and didn't throw the
[16:07] responsibility on every select board in
[16:09] the state of Vermont to decide yay or
[16:12] nay. And I asked him about responsible
[16:14] operator. This is what he said. And this
[16:18] once again I'm talking about the
[16:20] consumer stuff that you can buy in
[16:21] Vermont. There's two stores in Vermont
[16:23] that sell fireworks or you can buy
[16:24] across the river. And he said did they
[16:28] read the directions that came with it?
[16:30] Did they follow him? And that was the
[16:32] end of what he said. Uh there is no
[16:34] certification in Vermont for a certified
[16:38] fireworks operator. I don't have a
[16:40] certification in Vermont. It's expired,
[16:43] but I have one in New Hampshire that's
[16:44] tested. Should Vermont get a little more
[16:47] strict? They probably should. Are there
[16:50] problems in Vermont with fireworks? Yes,
[16:52] there are. But the problem is when the
[16:54] town doesn't know about them, um,
[16:58] leaving the neighbors concerns aside,
[17:01] it's a lot easier if you know that the fireworks are going to go on. As far
[17:06] as the public or private, if you take
[17:08] that to an extreme,
[17:10] um, I'm going to use another example
[17:12] that was in my house. We put on a
[17:14] fireworks show for my daughter's
[17:16] wedding. You wouldn't have been able to
[17:17] permit because it's not public. You had
[17:19] to be invited. that would and if that
[17:21] gets taken to an extreme in Vermont,
[17:24] nobody will be able to put on a
[17:25] fireworks show unless they invite the
[17:27] whole community. Maybe it's a good
[17:29] thing, maybe that's a bad, but it
[17:30] nonetheless, it isn't what
[17:35] fire prevention has in mind. Keep in
[17:37] mind, they said, and this is a quote,
[17:39] it's not in writing. He just said, if
[17:42] it's in front of an audience, it's
[17:44] public. I would challenge that if I was
[17:47] a grammar expert, which I'm not, but
[17:51] they really do need to to tighten up the
[17:53] laws and and figure out so that it
[17:55] doesn't put the onus on you guys. And
[17:57] another thing he said was it's whatever
[17:59] the select board is comfortable with.
[18:01] And you know, I looked at the
[18:02] application and his sentbacks met code
[18:07] um in NFDA. Part of the law is NFDA 1193
[18:12] and it says 70 ft for every inch of
[18:15] shell. He's got inch and 3/4. So he's
[18:17] got to be 125 ft away from uh his
[18:20] audience and he's got that. Um the even
[18:23] the shows that we shoot, we shoot up to
[18:25] 6 in and then you go out 350 ft. And if
[18:29] it's even a variances on that, you can
[18:31] angle it and you can cut it by one/3.
[18:34] Um, but anyway, that that's kind of a
[18:36] secondary thing. But I think the way
[18:38] that fire prevention is interpreting it
[18:41] is is important. Um, but it's your guy's
[18:44] decision to make
[18:48] somebody else over there. I can't see
[18:50] who it is.
[18:52] Yes. I don't know what Wayne Johnson I
[18:54] don't know what's the laws have changed
[18:56] over the years but I do know that when
[18:58] my kids graduated college I came to the
[19:01] town it was back a few years when Peter
[19:03] Cole was still the town manager and Dick
[19:07] uh Brown was the chief of police and I
[19:09] asked if I could get a firework display
[19:11] what could I do could I put on put on
[19:13] fireworks the what Dick told me is
[19:17] fireworks other than the spacers and
[19:19] stuff are illegal in Vermont illegal to
[19:21] be sold or purchased in Vermont. He
[19:23] goes, "No, if they miraculously somehow
[19:25] appear in your garage, his words, he
[19:28] goes, I don't know anything about it,
[19:29] but he goes and Peter told me, uh, well,
[19:34] there is no fireworks commission. I
[19:36] don't know when the select board started
[19:37] granting permits. I don't know when that
[19:39] happened. My wife was actually working
[19:41] for the town half of the time, and they
[19:43] did actually have a fireworks commission
[19:45] to get grant permits for licensed
[19:48] operators to put on public fireworks
[19:50] displays. So it's my understanding that
[19:52] all fireworks are still illegal over as
[19:54] what John said there's two places that
[19:56] you can purchase them. I that's news to
[19:59] me. I didn't know and I'm you know uh
[20:02] but from my understanding it was always
[20:04] did I put on a show? Yes, I did. I still
[20:07] put on a show but as uh uh
[20:12] Peter Cole and Chief Brown also told me
[20:15] at the time. However, be aware that he
[20:18] said, "If something from your fireworks
[20:22] lands on your neighbor's roof, sets a
[20:24] fire." He goes, "You could be setting
[20:26] yourself up for a lawsuit." And at the
[20:28] time, the select board was not granting
[20:30] permits because, as Peter said, also
[20:33] that could be setting the talent for a
[20:35] lawsuit. If they're granting permits and
[20:36] they don't have a firework commission,
[20:38] the select board, now I don't know when
[20:39] the select board became the firework
[20:42] commission, too, but that's all I have
[20:44] to now. lawsuits could change. I may be
[20:46] behind foot
[20:49] people.
[20:52] Thank you.
[20:54] I see what I said before. Fireworks
[20:56] aren't illegal. They're illegal to to
[20:59] disasseal
[21:01] to shoot without permit. So waiting.
[21:06] Uh I was on the board when the existing
[21:09] ordinance was uh uh hatched out and we
[21:12] had all the same discussions that you're
[21:14] having tonight and all the aspects of
[21:16] it. Nothing's changed in state law. I
[21:19] can't speak for fire prevention. They've
[21:21] become more lax or less lax. I I I don't
[21:25] recall consulting with them. But
[21:27] nonetheless, we we did take all the
[21:28] things that you're taking into
[21:30] consideration.
[21:31] And we also felt that it was important
[21:34] to have something on the books so that
[21:36] people could legally, if you will, shoot
[21:39] them. And at least the neighbors would
[21:42] know, and this is a good example, if
[21:43] that ferment didn't come in, he did it
[21:45] anyway. By the time um the sheriff's
[21:48] department got there, whoever happened
[21:50] to get there, they'd be all done and it
[21:52] would be their choice whether or not
[21:53] they cighted. I think it's much better
[21:55] to have something on the books so that
[21:57] people can come in and at least attempt
[21:59] to do it legally as opposed to just
[22:01] let's face it, you go around on the 4th
[22:03] of July, there's stuff flying in the air
[22:05] everywhere. It's part of summer.
[22:12] Um so
[22:20] I agree with John and thank you John
[22:22] because I thought of you. I just didn't
[22:24] bring you up. I figured you'd come along
[22:27] some.
[22:29] Um
[22:32] maybe would it be possible if we if we
[22:35] hold off on this until our next meeting
[22:37] that brings it to the 23rd and brings us
[22:39] inside of the window. I think it
[22:42] requires 15 days or prior to the event.
[22:46] Can we wave that 15 days based on our
[22:49] situation? give him another two weeks to
[22:53] give us a writer on the insurance policy
[22:57] and the name of a qualified individual
[23:00] if that like you said even
[23:04] John you could go fire him for him in my
[23:05] opinion you know more about it than
[23:07] anybody in the room
[23:10] um
[23:15] is that possible
[23:18] Yeah,
[23:20] I mean it would have to be a published
[23:22] display and not a private. Well, I think
[23:25] but if that definition is correct,
[23:28] he still need at least to sign off. He's
[23:32] already said he would
[23:34] I would have to sign off on it as well.
[23:38] I mean, if really wants it, I fine. I
[23:41] sign off. I guess my what I meant by
[23:43] that is my advice. It sounds like it
[23:45] doesn't meet the definition. I think
[23:47] some hearsay of oh this guy said anybody
[23:50] watching this public from a law
[23:52] enforcement standpoint somebody's
[23:54] private property the people you invited
[23:56] I wouldn't consider that a public
[23:58] display but not sure that if you guys
[24:00] really want this person fireworks
[24:02] display it's fine just sounds like it's
[24:05] it also if I it also gives the gentleman
[24:09] an opportunity to come before us as we
[24:11] had requested he's missed that tonight
[24:12] because of graduation that's you know
[24:14] just a scheduling thing. Uh I I would
[24:17] also Is auxberry online? No, he says
[24:20] graduation. Oh, because there was the
[24:23] concern there with the animals. Yeah.
[24:26] Which I understand as well. See, I would
[24:28] also maybe afford him another
[24:30] opportunity to weigh in on this. Um
[24:34] perhaps there's a question.
[24:37] He said he was firing an inch and 3/4.
[24:39] John, excuse me. You said he was firing
[24:42] an inch and 3/4 was his request. That's
[24:44] what it says on the application. So, but
[24:48] we don't know how many how long.
[24:51] Um I I had some other questions kind of
[24:55] based on the drawing of where he's
[24:57] firing the direction he's firing. He
[25:00] shows a tree line. Is that didn't go
[25:02] into a field or is that over a forest?
[25:04] He didn't put down the fallout zone. um
[25:08] that that ambassador and and I'm not
[25:11] going to say there's no fallout from
[25:12] consumer fireworks, but it's pretty
[25:14] minimal. Okay. Well, again, thank you.
[25:19] I'm learning more as we go along. I
[25:21] could ask everybody in the room that has
[25:23] shot fireworks in their life to raise
[25:25] their hand.
[25:28] I I did it. I did it once.
[25:35] Um obviously over the over the years
[25:38] since the application
[25:40] um was presented by whenever that was um
[25:44] the fire department standpoint has been
[25:47] meet that we look at the criterias of
[25:50] the mapping what the safety protocol
[25:52] that he puts in place and obviously the
[25:55] conditions of the weather at that point.
[25:58] Um obviously on there it is um both fire
[26:01] department permits have to sign off on
[26:02] it. Didn't matter what side of town it
[26:04] was. also the fire warden and it does
[26:07] state in the permit um that that uh I
[26:10] think it's two days prior to the event
[26:12] and they have to reach out to the fire
[26:13] warden uh to uh find out what the uh
[26:17] fire statuses of um uh if we're going to
[26:22] allow it or not allow it depending on
[26:25] the level of fire safety for the forest
[26:30] fire. Uh but that that's that's why both fire departments have been under
[26:35] the pressure. Obviously what was brought
[26:37] up tonight about the statute change uh
[26:40] versus private versus you know that was
[26:43] never
[26:45] this was brought up prior to that.
[26:49] Thank you.
[26:52] John made a really good point though if
[26:54] people are there watching it. It's
[26:55] public display.
[26:58] Um, and I think he clarified private
[27:01] with with the wedding uh analogy, which
[27:05] is, you know, those are invite invites
[27:07] only. And maybe I still think if you got
[27:10] 300 people that you invited to a wedding
[27:12] and you were shooting that's still
[27:14] public display, you got 300 people
[27:16] watching it, still an audience.
[27:20] One of the thing that that Wheeler said
[27:23] was that they are trying not to adore
[27:27] it. They don't want to have regulations.
[27:29] He understands that the existing law
[27:32] leaves problems like this. But believe
[27:36] it or not, in Vermont, they don't want
[27:37] to overregulated or adds add things.
[27:40] They uh I think they're they're really
[27:42] uh sherping their responsibility.
[27:45] And I'll I'm going to pursue that a
[27:47] little bit with land that um it's not
[27:49] fair to dump it on every 252
[27:53] boards in Vermont to make their own
[27:55] decision. Most of the I tell you right
[27:57] now that a lot of towns don't even have
[27:59] a permit system for display fireworks.
[28:03] We did one in Andover, Vermont, and they
[28:06] didn't have a thing. So, the office
[28:09] sends out a generic one. The select
[28:11] still has to sign off on it, but
[28:13] nonetheless, it's a generic format.
[28:17] Do we need a motion to continue? Yeah, I
[28:20] make a motion to continue review this
[28:22] application to our next meeting.
[28:26] So 23
[28:29] 23rd
[28:31] I'm sorry. No, no, we're we're second before, right? Two weeks
[28:35] would be 23rd
[28:38] June 23rd meeting
[28:41] with the request that the applicant be
[28:43] present and then
[28:46] additional insurance information. I
[28:49] think also answer
[28:52] public display which I think is the
[28:54] thing that makes our decision.
[29:02] Yeah,
[29:04] that that one bothers me less than the
[29:07] um um I'll second the motion invincibly
[29:11] for now and now we go into discussion.
[29:14] Um I'm more concerned with the you know
[29:17] somebody knowing that somebody knows
[29:19] who's handling the event and the fire
[29:22] that's kind of important.
[29:25] What does the select board consider a
[29:26] competent operator? Well, that's what
[29:28] John Harrison
[29:34] Well, he might know fireworks. He might
[29:36] not be confident, but everybody that
[29:38] comes home with all their appendages.
[29:43] Um, hold on, Brian. Oh, well, I almost
[29:48] I mean,
[29:50] maybe get to the first town controversy
[29:52] here, but I mean the division of fire
[29:53] safety's own packet that they put out on
[29:56] their website. I mean, fireworks are
[29:57] dangerous in particular, blah, blah, Uh, public fireworks displays
[30:01] conducted by trained professionals and
[30:03] supervised by the local fire department.
[30:05] They're good alternatives. Um, and
[30:07] again, I just think
[30:10] I think there's a lot of literature out
[30:11] there that saying needs to be a public
[30:13] display. And if you're saying, well, 300
[30:16] people, but if I wasn't but if you
[30:19] weren't wanted there, they could kick
[30:21] you out, right? That's not public. If
[30:23] you guys hold a Fourth of July
[30:24] celebration and light off fireworks,
[30:27] that's public display. I really disagree
[30:30] uh from a legal standpoint that someone
[30:32] would say that just because you have
[30:33] people at your house, that's a public
[30:34] display. Uh you're on private property,
[30:37] people are there by invitation only. Um
[30:39] and I think the idea that there might be
[30:42] not a a definition of a trained
[30:44] professional or wherever the or
[30:46] competent operator um you know just a
[30:50] random person saying oh yeah I'm I'm
[30:52] trained in this um I think you're also
[30:54] opening yourself up
[30:57] you know to everybody's going to start
[31:00] applying for fireworks permits and then
[31:01] what do you say no this doesn't make
[31:03] sense
[31:04] and also wants to be supervised with
[31:06] fire department I'm just saying I
[31:09] you're going down a road here
[31:12] seems I don't know a lot of other towns
[31:14] have approved this
[31:21] and I uh clearly I'm catching up but I I
[31:24] do agree with what John said about have
[31:26] it is right if people are going to do
[31:28] fireworks it's kind of nice to know
[31:30] ahead of time some of us with animals it
[31:32] is nice to know say you have in the barn
[31:35] out on a one strand electric fence uh
[31:38] you know uh it is I mean there and maybe
[31:41] there isn't a legal pathway because
[31:42] there isn't a legal it's not legal but
[31:46] uh making sure that we're correct on
[31:48] that because if there is a pathway to
[31:50] permit it that is the better pathway uh
[31:54] in my opinion so that the neighbors know
[31:56] etc etc
[31:59] I don't I don't love fire fireworks
[32:01] going off on the 4th of July because you
[32:03] know out talking the dogs but uh but
[32:05] that's I have a kid who should fireworks
[32:08] completely um or or start fireworks. Um
[32:14] I think the problem is state statute not
[32:19] being conflicting.
[32:21] Um
[32:23] I'll send a bad position which leaves
[32:25] town council very skeptical the sheriff
[32:29] myself.
[32:30] Um I will I will obtain this clarity
[32:35] before the next meeting.
[32:38] As you say it has to be within 15 days.
[32:41] That was our that was our own policy.
[32:44] Well the state of Vermont their little
[32:48] hand out the fire division fires in 15
[32:50] days needs to be approved. So I don't
[32:52] know. Okay. I'm aware of that 15 days,
[32:54] but if you have a policy in the division
[32:57] of fire safety has a policy, it might be
[32:59] under the title 20 30 31 in that area
[33:04] that um under permitting in 15 days. I
[33:08] can't imagine if you guys made that up
[33:09] and fire safety made it up all at once.
[33:13] So, I think
[33:17] we could hold a special meeting if you
[33:19] guys want to meet that requirement.
[33:22] But policy reference I I could have
[33:25] missed it when I read it, but does it
[33:27] reference an application date or an
[33:28] approval date?
[33:32] The the other that would put the other
[33:34] in jeopardy as well because it's not
[33:36] that
[33:39] and we've kicked the can twice now down
[33:42] into 90. Yeah. You know, it's not the
[33:45] applicant's error that he's late on the
[33:48] application.
[33:49] That's why I mentioned possibly waving
[33:52] that. Um because he certainly meant that
[33:56] it's us that's holding that up, right?
[34:01] And the fire departments are aware, you
[34:03] know,
[34:05] neighbors are aware. Says applications
[34:07] for permit shall be made to the town
[34:09] manager and writing at least 21 days in
[34:12] advance the database. And he's more than
[34:14] met that. Mhm.
[34:19] This was at our last meeting
[34:21] 14 days ago.
[34:26] And one last thing then I'll shut up.
[34:30] Part of I did check on this.
[34:34] Hard to believe.
[34:36] But what triggered it was that people
[34:39] were showing up, especially in the
[34:40] Rutland area, with a U-Haul full of
[34:43] fireworks and putting up beside their
[34:44] own and selling them. And that wasn't a
[34:47] great setup because they didn't have
[34:49] proper ATF um proper credentials or um
[34:54] and that really is what triggered it,
[34:57] I'm not disputing what it says because
[34:59] it does talk about the displays, but
[35:02] it's that was what triggered that
[35:04] Supreme Court case. was a sale of
[35:06] fireworks and that pretty much has been
[35:08] snuffed out. Um the only place right now
[35:12] that I'm aware of you can buy them are
[35:13] any
[35:27] motion to carry this to the next
[35:28] meeting. Everyone in favor?
[35:33] Any extensions? Motion carries. Next
[35:35] meeting
[35:37] agenda.
[35:41] Okay. 1034.
[36:02] I'd like to take a moment to recognize
[36:04] our significant milestone for the town
[36:06] of Lisfield.
[36:08] As part of our continued efforts, the
[36:09] fire department committee and I work
[36:11] collaborative collaboratively to create
[36:13] the new position of municipal fire
[36:15] chief.
[36:17] After a thorough and thoughtful
[36:18] selection process, the committee
[36:21] unanimously recommended Josh Combo for
[36:23] that role.
[36:25] In accordance with that recommendation,
[36:27] I officially appointed Mr. Cono as well
[36:29] as Phil's first ministerial fire chief.
[36:33] At this time, I'll turn the meeting over
[36:34] to the town clerk, Fan, who will
[36:36] administer the oath of office to
[36:59] Um I the undersound undersigned town
[37:01] manager of the town of Wesfield, Vermont
[37:04] under the authority given to me by law
[37:06] do hereby
[37:08] by these presents constitute and appoint
[37:10] you fire chief in and for the town of
[37:13] Leisfield with all the powers and duties
[37:16] appertaining to said office pursuing to
[37:18] the laws of Vermont.
[37:20] Set appointment shall remain in force
[37:21] unless sooner revoked for cause. This
[37:25] new appointment supersedes prior
[37:27] appointments.
[37:29] given under my hand at the town of
[37:31] Wisville and said county of Windsor this
[37:35] 9th day of June 2025
[38:11] I, Josh, do solemnly swear that I will
[38:14] faithfully execute the duties of fire
[38:16] chief in and for the town of
[38:18] Weathersfield during my continuence of
[38:20] office and therein do equal right and
[38:23] justice for all men and women to the
[38:25] best of my judgment and ability.
[39:03] I'm going with this badge.
[39:07] Fire chief.
[39:10] Thank you.
[39:29] Doesn't the new fire chief have to give
[39:31] a speaking
[39:34] lately?
[39:41] Thank you all.
[39:48] I have a couple more things in my
[39:50] report. Any questions about the appointment of the municipal
[39:54] fire chief? Is it this an open-ended
[39:58] thing? It's on a term that it's good for
[40:00] so many years or something like that.
[40:02] Um, it'll remain in full force in effect
[40:04] unless they're built for just cause.
[40:05] Okay, let's wait. That's my
[40:07] understanding. Okay.
[40:09] Um, I'd like to pass it over to Sheriff
[40:12] Palmer to give an update on policing,
[40:14] but I'll follow that a couple of updates
[40:16] on our bill of sale.
[40:20] Well, hello. So, uh, besides fireworks,
[40:23] um, we took over June 1 and, uh,
[40:26] basically midnight. Um, we think by the
[40:28] next day we got called out. Everything
[40:30] seems to be going pretty smooth. Josh,
[40:32] even though I just left, um I think this
[40:34] is a huge step forward public safety
[40:36] wise for town Weathersfield and that was
[40:39] clearly a right choice because the last
[40:43] month or so that I've been interacting
[40:44] with him been fantastic and just
[40:47] welcoming and we've been working
[40:48] together uh fantastic. I don't know if
[40:51] you're following us on social media or
[40:52] whatever, we've had a couple arrests
[40:55] already. um impaired driver crashed into
[40:58] a vehicle um on 131, full quart off of
[41:04] him and
[41:06] arrested him with a bunch of charges
[41:07] there. Uh the next night we arrested a
[41:09] driver who was about two and a half
[41:11] times the legal limit uh for DUI. Uh so
[41:15] we're continuing a little late
[41:19] weather still got called out to um and
[41:22] the car took off just before we got
[41:24] there.
[41:26] again 131. So, it's been busy. Uh I
[41:31] think that you've seen hopefully a
[41:33] little bit of local presence. We're covering till late into the night
[41:38] and uh we were at the school the other
[41:41] day. Um
[41:43] Deputy Mike Keith and I stopped with the
[41:44] school, met with the school, talked
[41:46] about emergency planning, uh handed out
[41:48] about 4,000 stickers. I don't know how a
[41:50] couple hundred kids ended up with 4,000
[41:52] stickers, but uh
[41:55] And so that's been very good. We'll be
[41:56] at field day Wednesday and hopefully
[41:58] make an appearance for myself. So, uh,
[42:00] we're building those relationships and
[42:01] everything seems to be clicking very
[42:03] well. Doc came
[42:08] out the other night to help us with this
[42:10] accident scene with the car driver with
[42:13] drugs. It's just been it's been very smooth so far. Any questions?
[42:25] May we have to step up to the podium and
[42:28] say who you are please.
[42:34] I'm Mal Spalding and I just wanted to
[42:36] thank uh you guys for making that
[42:38] decision as well as having Ryan here.
[42:40] We've actually had to deal with them uh
[42:42] three times actually right outside of
[42:44] our house um already which is kind of
[42:47] annoying but it's been nice to have them
[42:49] almost immediately. And one of the other
[42:52] times was also right outside our house,
[42:53] but we were away. Um, and I don't know
[42:55] if I should publicly say this, but it
[42:57] was nice to know as well that my house
[42:58] was being watched. Um, because I have
[43:00] huge concerns about the people that are
[43:02] around us. So, all of them have been
[43:04] wonderful at firefalls. Um, I can't
[43:06] speak highly enough of that. So, I want
[43:08] to thank you very much.
[43:13] They're kind of annoying because I was
[43:15] there. I'm not sure what she
[43:19] that right. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, any
[43:22] other thoughts, questions, concerns,
[43:24] direction?
[43:27] So, for the past several weeks, I mean,
[43:29] initially upon you taking over that
[43:31] following Monday, we transferred all um,
[43:34] police equipment over to the sheriff's
[43:36] office just to have it in holding in a
[43:39] safe place.
[43:40] um the accountant and I went over there
[43:42] uh with Sheriff Palmer and a couple of
[43:44] other deputies and we took an inventory
[43:46] of all the equipment, serial numbers,
[43:48] models and we developed a list. Um all
[43:52] pictures were taken of all equipment and
[43:55] the accountants currently working on
[43:56] value. Um so we think within
[44:01] 20 to 30 more days we'll have we'll have
[44:04] everything drafted for the select board
[44:06] to review.
[44:12] Next update is a solid waste update. Um,
[44:18] thank you sir.
[44:21] on the last meeting I I had mentioned
[44:24] that um
[44:37] the last meeting I mentioned I do an
[44:38] update on the solid waste contract. Um I
[44:42] am still currently working through that
[44:44] with the Windsor County solid waste
[44:47] venture out waste. Nothing's inside at
[44:50] this point.
[44:53] I'm hoping building agreement within the
[44:55] next week or so.
[44:58] The website I have a meeting Wednesday
[45:01] or Thursday. Still waiting to schedule
[45:04] an exact date and time, but it will be
[45:06] this week. Um to talk to our
[45:09] administrative assistant about taking on
[45:11] website responsibilities, um including
[45:13] the training to get up to speed. Um,
[45:16] we're also going to talk about whether
[45:18] we want to contract out um, one of the
[45:21] companies that in the project, I did
[45:24] reach out to them and they did say they
[45:26] would still be interested on getting the
[45:27] website to park and then having our town
[45:32] office, our administrative assistant
[45:35] handling it going forward.
[45:37] So, we're going to I hope to have it
[45:40] flushed out before the next meeting. Um,
[45:44] the last thing is rosters and mission
[45:46] statements. That's one thing that I
[45:49] haven't fully got to yet. I hope to have
[45:51] all those completed by the next meeting.
[45:53] Sorry.
[46:00] Any questions for me?
[46:06] I just have one quick question and I
[46:08] didn't know this and I didn't want my
[46:10] apologies. Is the new number to get a
[46:13] hold of the new police department been
[46:15] changed on the website? Yeah, it's not.
[46:17] Thanks for bringing that up, Ar. You're
[46:19] welcome.
[46:24] Thanks. At least I haven't done it.
[46:27] Suzanne might have
[46:34] next thing on the uh agenda. Warrant to
[46:37] impound unlicensed l uh unlicensed dogs.
[46:43] This is uh Floan.
[46:46] You do it or does Floan? Floan. Okay.
[46:51] Oh, there you go. Chloe, get up to the
[46:53] podium and explain to us why you want
[46:55] this done.
[46:57] I really don't want to get up there.
[47:00] Wow.
[47:04] Incidentally, we used to affectionately
[47:05] call it the kill blob
[47:08] letter. It's really severely worried
[47:12] and that's in stat that's not but every
[47:16] year um at this time in June I have to
[47:19] hand the list of delinquent dogs over to
[47:21] the select board and then it's their job
[47:24] to go out and get the unlicensed dogs
[47:27] put somebody in charge of it that hasn't
[47:29] happened in many many years and we are
[47:32] so down on registration
[47:35] and the vote Well, one of the whole
[47:37] thing is because it's stacked up because
[47:40] you just stacked, but it's a health
[47:42] issue because we don't know what adult
[47:44] dogs have had rabies, you know, vaccines
[47:47] or whatever. And if they bite somebody,
[47:49] it's a very costly thing for somebody to
[47:51] go through. So, I'm thinking of I do a
[47:56] lot to please try to get this situation
[47:59] out. We did have so many years ago we
[48:02] did a job and we have a nearly $700
[48:05] register. Now I don't even have three.
[48:08] So each year it keeps going down.
[48:11] And I gave you another paper there
[48:13] trying to reinforce how important this
[48:15] is. And that is state statue. And um we
[48:19] sent them a card a little postcard in
[48:22] January telling them that they have to
[48:24] register their dog. I'm sure they
[48:25] haven't. And then the middle of April,
[48:28] we send another reminder to tell them to
[48:30] do it by May 30th because then it's
[48:32] after that that I have to turn this
[48:34] year. And I have a sign out front. Um
[48:39] little Fred fell over when it rained.
[48:42] But um
[48:44] that's it in a nutshell. It's law and
[48:50] that what's true should be done. There
[48:52] are people on that board that have
[48:55] how do how do we enforce this?
[48:59] How how do we
[49:02] start starts by following the state law
[49:05] by designating one or more persons to
[49:07] maintain a list?
[49:09] We have lists. We have the list. Have a
[49:11] list. They have
[49:13] basically not
[49:16] um approach
[49:18] the letter.
[49:20] Um, one of the clerks said that how they
[49:23] handled it is based on how a notice and
[49:26] said that if they weren't registered by
[49:28] section of China, it's going to be a
[49:30] $100 fine. We tried a few years ago
[49:33] around the $25.
[49:35] That didn't help. So,
[49:38] I don't know what that's going to do.
[49:40] And also the state raised it this year
[49:43] um their part of it to $2 helps pay for
[49:48] the um babies or sp and um it's it's
[49:52] hard to just get to pay $10 never mind
[49:56] $5 for license. So and now it's on a new
[50:01] but so who's who's maintaining this
[50:03] list?
[50:05] I did. Were you designated? Did you say
[50:08] list? Who is maintaining the list of
[50:12] unregistered dogs? Yes. My offices.
[50:16] Did the select board designate somebody
[50:19] in your office to do that? No, we do
[50:22] with our statute. That is the statute of
[50:25] FL. Yes. But now it's turned over to the
[50:27] school board. If you read those I just I
[50:30] have it right in front of me. The
[50:32] legislative body shall annually
[50:34] designate one or more persons to
[50:36] maintain a list. Who has been designated
[50:39] by this board to maintain that list? I
[50:42] give you the list which you have there.
[50:44] And then you're not answering the
[50:45] question.
[50:47] is who did this board
[50:50] designate to do that? We haven't done it
[50:52] yet. Thank you. So we have not followed
[50:56] the statute flowing. No, you haven't.
[50:58] Yes. That's why I'm asking you, who is
[51:01] maintaining the list? Maintenance of the
[51:04] list. What would that be? That would be
[51:07] knocking on people's doors that you
[51:10] think have a dog that's not registered
[51:12] and
[51:14] verifying they have a dog, write their
[51:16] name down, and they're now on the list
[51:19] by the designated person from this
[51:21] board.
[51:23] That would be the statute to start with,
[51:25] following the law, right? you're
[51:27] following the law with fireworks and
[51:29] other things. We're following the law,
[51:33] which I'm okay with. Um, but that's the
[51:36] first thing that hasn't happened. So, my
[51:38] question is the list you claim to have,
[51:41] you claim it's been maintained. How has
[51:43] it been maintained and by who?
[51:47] I'm talking about my delinquent list
[51:49] that I turned over to you by statute.
[51:51] It's going to be another list. I do not
[51:53] know. You'll have to come up with your
[51:54] own list if if you go knocking on doors,
[51:57] whatever. But I don't I get a lot of
[51:59] Well, the question is about the list
[52:01] that you have. How did it how did you
[52:04] determine that? Because people that have
[52:07] registered last year did not register
[52:10] this year. That's how they get on. Okay.
[52:13] All right. Well, that's an answer.
[52:18] Excuse me. That brings up the question
[52:21] then if somebody has a dog and it's
[52:23] registered and it dies deceased, should
[52:26] we be telling the the town clerk? So
[52:29] because my dog passed away last year and
[52:34] uh so that's why I have a rush this
[52:35] year. Uh everybody from here to my house
[52:40] knew my dog because she could get out of
[52:42] anything and she knows of her. So every
[52:44] house from Thrash Road to here was her
[52:46] mom. think everybody adopted there. So,
[52:50] but I didn't sure this year, but you
[52:52] know, the people didn't know. I mean, we
[52:55] actually had a party for all all the
[52:57] neighbors from Europe to my house to
[52:59] come up to that. Everybody knew Benny.
[53:01] So, um and there are a few few dogs that
[53:05] have that have disease, but we don't
[53:08] know that unless somebody called and
[53:11] it's time report say this, do that.
[53:16] We get reports all the time of dogs that
[53:19] bother people and they ask if they get
[53:22] registered in that.
[53:25] So, so through that process you update
[53:27] the list accordingly as best you can
[53:29] those shoes. Yes. Not if the dog wasn't
[53:33] licensed before. I cannot do that.
[53:36] If somebody that would bring them back
[53:38] to this person that's responsible for
[53:40] it. Well, you come up with a person.
[53:44] I'm just saying thank you. I nominate
[53:46] you. I'm just saying that
[53:49] we have we have to follow the law if
[53:50] we're going to follow the law. Right.
[53:55] So, well, what I heard you say is years
[53:58] ago you had a system that worked well.
[54:00] Right. Can you tell us what that system
[54:02] was that was working?
[54:05] Um the person sends a letter um with
[54:09] statute. But I've done that too and I
[54:11] got regular polls for what the statute
[54:13] says
[54:16] that's not my words.
[54:19] But anyway, um this person
[54:22] got the prior list. Yeah. Who was the
[54:25] person at that I mean I don't care what
[54:26] their name is, but what was their role?
[54:29] That's what they were hired for. just to
[54:32] do it.
[54:33] [Music]
[54:41] And um
[54:43] they um the prior list and the ones that
[54:46] were not registered on the prior list
[54:47] and letters were sent out and I mean
[54:50] there are fines attached to this
[54:52] sheriff, the police, the police can't
[54:54] remove
[54:56] the animal control.
[54:59] We have an animal patrol officer, but I
[55:02] don't think she has many hours here. She
[55:04] works out in New Hampshire.
[55:07] And um we did get a lot. We got more
[55:11] dogs registered that time than I had
[55:14] ever seen.
[55:16] Then they each year.
[55:23] So did the select board authorize hiring
[55:26] this person to do those years ago? Yeah.
[55:30] Who hired the person to do that? The
[55:32] town.
[55:36] I I can't say that that they were hired.
[55:38] I'm not sure. Might have been volunteer.
[55:41] Was the person an animal control
[55:43] officer? No. Okay. What was the person's
[55:46] title?
[55:51] She was I don't really know what the
[55:53] title was. Wear dog
[55:59] was it? Yes. Okay.
[56:09] What happened to the position?
[56:32] can't see out of the corner of my eye
[56:34] when you're sitting over there. I
[56:35] believe at the time Lynn was constable
[56:37] back
[56:45] excuse me.
[56:48] That's how
[56:53] We don't have we haven't since that was
[56:56] back in 2014.
[56:58] I I can give you a little bit of history
[57:01] um on how it evolved um at different
[57:05] times. We had people that were people a
[57:08] little overzealous in their in their
[57:10] position and it was causing
[57:15] amount of strife in town. We didn't feel
[57:17] doing a good job and now we don't have a
[57:19] constable at all. And when the we went
[57:24] with the gal over in Claremont, yeah, it
[57:27] has been really a good system. I mean,
[57:30] she has done as far as I'm concerned.
[57:34] Don't do something to annoy her so she
[57:37] doesn't want to come over here because
[57:38] it's really important. But that's a
[57:40] little bit separate from the
[57:41] registration.
[57:44] You mean you mean you you're referring
[57:46] to animals or water?
[57:52] That's not the same as the con. No.
[58:00] Next motion to appoint Nathan.
[58:06] I just wanted to get out of that. I
[58:07] didn't want to point to me. So I I I
[58:11] mean I think what would happen Brandon
[58:13] present us is what you would suggest is
[58:15] a solution at the next meeting on on how
[58:19] to address making sure we're we're
[58:22] following the law would be
[58:26] but in a reasonable way that doesn't
[58:28] make the entire town angry, right?
[58:30] Sounds like the history. Yeah.
[58:43] Thank you. Thank you for Nathan.
[58:48] He's shaking his head.
[58:53] Okay. Next item on the agenda. Legal
[58:57] trail six discussion. What this is,
[59:00] right? Yep. Mr. Tar is here.
[59:06] Mr. Carr, are you there? Yes. Can you
[59:08] hear us? Okay. Yes. Yep. This is Joe and
[59:12] this is CC, my wife. Um, Brandon, should
[59:15] we just kind of walk through what we're
[59:17] looking to propose? Yeah. And, uh, I
[59:20] have your PowerPoint up on the other TV
[59:23] in the room. Okay. I'm currently on the
[59:26] first slide. Can you see it? Um, I
[59:29] cannot see it. Okay. I'm following on
[59:31] the I I have it up on my side though, so
[59:33] I can kind of follow and direct you when
[59:35] we go to the next slide. So, right now
[59:37] we're on the cover page and I'm going to
[59:39] move to the second page where it says
[59:42] utilizing legal trail 6. What, where,
[59:44] why, and when. Perfect. Great. So, hello
[59:48] everyone. Um, my name is Joe Cece. We're
[59:51] originally from the area. We currently
[59:53] reside in Portsouth, New Hampshire, but
[59:54] are looking to start making strides of
[59:56] coming back to this to that area to the
[59:58] Weathersfield area. And one of the
[1:00:00] options we're looking to pursue at this
[1:00:01] point is possibly build a house um on
[1:00:04] John and Patty Erison's property. Um and
[1:00:06] working through the details of that now.
[1:00:08] Um so what we're coming to the select
[1:00:10] board today to ask for guidance in your
[1:00:12] approval for is utilizing the legal
[1:00:14] trail 6 as a partial driveway. There's
[1:00:17] about 250 ft um of legal trail 6 that
[1:00:20] we'd like to up upgrade a little bit and
[1:00:23] utilize that piece to reach a potential
[1:00:25] driveway site at some point. Um, right
[1:00:27] now we're looking just to get approval
[1:00:29] on using and making the updates
[1:00:32] necessary for that legal trail 6 and
[1:00:34] like I said for a future home build and
[1:00:36] we'd like to start making improvements
[1:00:37] from like a timeline perspective to that
[1:00:40] um sometime this summer. Um, I put some
[1:00:44] photos here from like a driveway
[1:00:45] location perspective if Brandon you want
[1:00:47] to scroll down further
[1:00:50] of how it would like flow. Um, so one,
[1:00:53] two, they go in, you know, subsequent
[1:00:54] order here. um where the signage first
[1:00:58] starts where it says no motorized
[1:00:59] vehicles and kind of how the plow
[1:01:01] trucks, you know, managed their way up
[1:01:03] to there today. Um go further up and
[1:01:06] then you can see how it's like about two
[1:01:09] I think it's 250 to 300 feet is what
[1:01:11] we're looking to utilize um once it's
[1:01:13] all said and done. And if you scroll
[1:01:16] down further, there's an aerial view
[1:01:19] as well as the actual snippet from the
[1:01:23] mapping designating that it's legal
[1:01:25] trail 6.
[1:01:34] Joe, John, this is an extension of your
[1:01:36] like your
[1:01:41] I mean question. What? Excuse me. What
[1:01:44] your wife? No, Mike was asking a
[1:01:47] question.
[1:01:59] Um,
[1:02:01] this is this is an extension basically
[1:02:03] past your house, correct? Correct. Is
[1:02:05] that a private driveway to your house or
[1:02:07] is it trail six today? It's 3 to
[1:02:14] right about
[1:02:16] well be I guess from my seat it's class
[1:02:20] three right there. Oh it currently?
[1:02:23] Yeah. And that's approximate. Yeah. And a little bit of history. We moved in
[1:02:29] up on the hill in 2001
[1:02:31] and um the at that time the entire
[1:02:34] length of it was class 4 and people were
[1:02:37] going on it on skyline and it's really
[1:02:40] muddy, really steep. We have people
[1:02:42] trying to drive over it. Um um and it
[1:02:46] really shouldn't have been open for
[1:02:47] vehicles at that time. And that's mostly
[1:02:49] the end towards skyline. It eroded. It's
[1:02:52] muddy. Um, some guy came up doing an
[1:02:55] early Harley-Davidson and anyway and and
[1:02:57] we own both sides.
[1:03:03] of Center Grove Road
[1:03:07] all the way from where it begins at the
[1:03:10] um the old all the way to Skyline. So
[1:03:13] there's no other abutters that I know
[1:03:15] where that
[1:03:18] I do. I do I agree with that. Um you
[1:03:20] know um my question uh basically on this
[1:03:24] comes down to um be because that's a
[1:03:28] designated trail. There's certain
[1:03:31] restrictions on that uh that are in
[1:03:34] statute. Correct. Um wouldn't we have to
[1:03:37] do let Brandon let that sit there where
[1:03:40] it was and be fine? Sorry, I was I
[1:03:43] appreciate it. You're okay. Um
[1:03:46] uh but
[1:03:49] wouldn't wouldn't it wouldn't we be um
[1:03:51] wouldn't it be more appropriate to to
[1:03:53] take that back to a class three class
[1:03:56] four at least at least class four class four we don't maintain that
[1:04:00] would yeah we can allow them to use it
[1:04:03] exactly um uh is there is there does the
[1:04:09] if that's a glass three up to your house
[1:04:11] the town takes care of it that far
[1:04:13] correct do they they
[1:04:15] appropriate to have a good turnaround
[1:04:17] there. I guess it's about as appropriate
[1:04:19] as a lot of others in town which is not
[1:04:20] exactly appropriate
[1:04:23] like a hammerhead. It could be better
[1:04:25] and part of the plan is to make it
[1:04:27] better. Yeah. Um
[1:04:32] right. We we took the time to to uh look
[1:04:35] up state statute and reviewed it with
[1:04:38] town statute and state statute. The only
[1:04:42] differentiation between trail and class
[1:04:44] 4 is the maintainance of bridge and
[1:04:46] culvers. That's the only thing that's
[1:04:48] different and state statutes between a
[1:04:50] four and a trail. There's nothing in
[1:04:52] there about vehicles that we found. This
[1:04:56] research I did I should
[1:05:06] correct. A trail can be used motorized
[1:05:08] vehicle. This one was posted for no
[1:05:11] motorized vehicles because it was in
[1:05:13] good condition and people were driving
[1:05:15] on it and ruining it. So the board
[1:05:17] decided to post it um I believe from the
[1:05:19] homeowner um was requesting it also. So
[1:05:23] the town did that. That's not a state
[1:05:26] law. Um, if these folks wish for us to
[1:05:29] plow all the way to their new driveway
[1:05:31] going to their house another 300 feet,
[1:05:33] then we have to make it class three
[1:05:35] road, they would be responsible for
[1:05:36] bringing it up to that standard, doing
[1:05:38] that whole thing. Um, if we make it a
[1:05:40] class 4, I would be responsible for
[1:05:42] culberts and any kind of wash out or
[1:05:44] anything. If you don't want the expense,
[1:05:46] keep it a trail. You don't have to go
[1:05:47] through any of that stuff to do to
[1:05:48] change anything. You would have to have
[1:05:50] pre hearings. We have to have public
[1:05:52] notice and all that. you can keep it a
[1:05:55] trail, get permission them to work on it
[1:05:57] and do it. Sign a contract. Um Brandon
[1:06:01] and I have already had discussions and I came up with a little draft that we
[1:06:05] looked at. Um not to get too much into
[1:06:07] the weeds, but things to protect the
[1:06:09] town and the trail would be they
[1:06:11] couldn't post it that nobody's come in.
[1:06:14] um people are going to drive that
[1:06:15] actually 300 feet and they're going to
[1:06:17] have a place to park would I would
[1:06:19] assume they're going to know people are
[1:06:21] going to be able to drive at 300 feet
[1:06:23] and we can't keep them out of there and
[1:06:25] then allow them to use it as a as a
[1:06:27] private driveway because it is a public
[1:06:29] access. So that's on that's on the
[1:06:31] homeowner. We've already had that
[1:06:32] discussion. Um, I just don't want it to
[1:06:35] end up in a situation where somebody
[1:06:37] buys the house and it's not written
[1:06:40] really well with an agreement that they
[1:06:42] don't know the history and know that
[1:06:43] this is a public access and it is a
[1:06:45] trail from wherever they build their
[1:06:48] driveway. It's still going to be a trail
[1:06:49] out the skyline and they have to be able
[1:06:52] to let people are going to drive on it.
[1:06:54] What now the planning commissioner kicks
[1:06:57] in. What's the potential for future
[1:06:59] development beyond this? That would be
[1:07:02] entirely up to a subdivision and you'd
[1:07:03] have to go through that whole process.
[1:07:05] Yeah.
[1:07:07] And I do the same thing. If you if you
[1:07:09] subdivided and they wanted to add on to
[1:07:11] it, then they'd have to follow the
[1:07:12] subdivision rules and make the road
[1:07:13] bigger and wider and whatever else they
[1:07:15] had to do to make that more accessible,
[1:07:17] but it could still be considered a trail
[1:07:20] in our eyes and not have to go through
[1:07:21] the process of making it a four or a
[1:07:23] three
[1:07:25] and then it still be a planter. the um
[1:07:29] driveway access to what we what we tend
[1:07:32] to look at this as being um what is what
[1:07:35] are what are the homeowners that are on
[1:07:37] the on the road this will not be a
[1:07:39] driveway access this is them getting
[1:07:42] permission to drive I understand then
[1:07:44] they'll have to come back I understand
[1:07:46] that I'm just trying to understand what
[1:07:49] people that live there want to do
[1:07:56] I with a local contractor to try to get
[1:07:59] some idea of what we do. A from here to
[1:08:02] here is pretty flat. Um it's not muddy.
[1:08:07] Uh so we don't think that a base is
[1:08:09] going to be an issue, but nonetheless it
[1:08:11] it's shows old wheel ruts where the
[1:08:14] water has gone down through. One problem
[1:08:17] over the years was that uh it because
[1:08:20] this this had does slope this way and
[1:08:24] water would find its way and it was
[1:08:26] washing up the town road or or excuse me
[1:08:28] the class 3 road. So a water bar was put
[1:08:32] in right where the ax turn a little bit
[1:08:34] back actually and we got to figure out
[1:08:36] how to do that and the local contractor
[1:08:38] said well some kind of culvert or
[1:08:40] something to get the water turned there
[1:08:42] so people going down and and washing out
[1:08:45] the town part of the road. Uh which it
[1:08:48] seems to be working that hasn't washed
[1:08:50] out significantly for a long time. Uh so
[1:08:53] it is it is helping quite a bit. It does
[1:08:56] tend to sheet off the hill a little bit
[1:08:57] and we try to keep it turned so it
[1:08:59] doesn't go on the town road. Um, a
[1:09:03] little bit of history in in research.
[1:09:06] Thank you. Short left. Uh, try to figure
[1:09:09] out Patty and I remember coming before
[1:09:12] the board to limit traffic on the road.
[1:09:16] We moved up there in 2001. We couldn't
[1:09:19] find anything in the minutes. um the
[1:09:22] minutes from and and interestingly the mileage report that you guys sign
[1:09:28] every year in 2014 said it was a class 4
[1:09:32] and then in 15 it said that the trail.
[1:09:34] So I'm going to assume that that had
[1:09:36] something to do with the ancient road
[1:09:37] people uh picking up some old paperwork.
[1:09:40] I don't have any other explanation but
[1:09:42] then there was a footnote that said what
[1:09:44] say 2012
[1:09:46] per something from 2012. The 2012
[1:09:50] minutes aren't in the ball. We So we
[1:09:51] couldn't go back and research that. We
[1:09:53] couldn't find them. I don't know where
[1:09:55] they are or if they are.
[1:09:58] So So we couldn't find a history. Was it
[1:10:01] just down Highway being nicely putting
[1:10:04] the signs up? Honestly, don't know. Um
[1:10:08] so as a trail, if I can continue as a as
[1:10:12] a trail, uh what type of traffic do you
[1:10:15] see up there? What where are they going?
[1:10:18] what are they doing? You know, that kind
[1:10:19] of thing. Down at the skyline end,
[1:10:21] there's a significant structure to keep
[1:10:24] people from coming up through there.
[1:10:25] That's almost a pen road. Um, and not
[1:10:28] even a trail. Um, because technically
[1:10:32] somebody if you can drive this and you
[1:10:35] should be able to drive back too. Uh, so
[1:10:38] in a way it's a pent road, but it just
[1:10:41] totally we got a lot of them. There's a
[1:10:43] lot of fours you cannot drive on. Um,
[1:10:46] unless you have a tank, but but are
[1:10:49] there people walking, hiking? Yes. Out
[1:10:51] through there. All the above. So,
[1:10:55] I think skiing.
[1:10:59] Okay. So, horses, bikes, people. We
[1:11:01] invite people on our property, not only
[1:11:04] on the town, right? Well, that's that's
[1:11:05] great. What what I'm trying to get at is
[1:11:07] if you're going to extend that up
[1:11:08] through for this next house and I think
[1:11:10] you said something about putting in a
[1:11:12] parking area there and stuff. Does it
[1:11:16] make more sense? I mean, we can do what
[1:11:18] we need to do to let it go and we can go
[1:11:20] through the process to take it to a
[1:11:22] three, get the turnaround that we need
[1:11:24] for the town. Does that make everybody
[1:11:27] happy? Get get a parking area up there
[1:11:29] for the hikers and the people that are
[1:11:31] using the letting use. I don't know what you guys want. That's the only
[1:11:36] people that we've had that wanted to
[1:11:39] park, they were hunters and they
[1:11:42] traditionally park down here and walk
[1:11:44] up. As a matter of fact, do you mind
[1:11:47] funny story?
[1:11:50] It was a a night that there was supposed
[1:11:52] to be a significant shooting stars. I
[1:11:55] mean, at like 4 in the morning, we
[1:11:57] actually got out of bed and we're
[1:11:59] standing out here and we saw the guy
[1:12:02] park pitch dark like 4 in the morning
[1:12:05] and he's tiptoeing up through here and
[1:12:08] we hollered at him. He almost passed
[1:12:10] out. That scared us.
[1:12:13] What are you guys doing out here? 4 in
[1:12:15] the morning. He had no idea. But we're
[1:12:17] hunting just like you are.
[1:12:22] Anyway, but I don't tell anybody that we GPS used to say this was a way to get
[1:12:29] the old bow. We haven't had that for a
[1:12:31] long time. Um people come up and
[1:12:34] somebody came up turned around today,
[1:12:36] didn't they? Yes. Yeah. I mean, people
[1:12:39] just explore. Um and and we don't have
[1:12:42] any problem with that. as long as they
[1:12:43] don't smash into one of our cars. Uh the town right now comes up and they
[1:12:49] back in right about where my pickup
[1:12:51] truck is.
[1:12:53] Not perfect. We move some stone walls
[1:12:55] back to make it a little bit easier. uh
[1:12:57] if we can improve that a little bit
[1:12:59] more. Uh that was the goal was maybe to
[1:13:02] improve it a little bit more because
[1:13:03] even if it can't turn into a class four
[1:13:05] somewhere here it's got to be the town's
[1:13:08] got to turn around and cover because you
[1:13:11] got
[1:13:13] Yeah. Right in here to get the water to
[1:13:14] go out need something.
[1:13:17] Um Mr. Tara, where where are you at and
[1:13:20] what you want to put in there? Yeah, I
[1:13:23] mean the I would I think aesthetically
[1:13:26] speaking there's some big beautiful
[1:13:28] maples that are close to that rock wall
[1:13:30] there. So if we can narrow how much we
[1:13:34] actually have to go wide with the road.
[1:13:36] So I think the the like the legal trail
[1:13:39] um thought process permits us to be able
[1:13:42] to keep it relatively narrow still and
[1:13:45] not have to get rid of those big maples
[1:13:46] that have been there for, you know,
[1:13:48] decades and decades and decades. Um so
[1:13:50] we'd like to do that. um if we could,
[1:13:53] right? We don't want to upgrade the road
[1:13:55] so much so where we lose all those trees
[1:13:57] that have been there for, you know,
[1:13:59] probably 100 plus years, right? So, um
[1:14:02] that's our initial thought of it, but
[1:14:03] everything John's speaking about, I
[1:14:04] mean, we're in complete agreement with
[1:14:07] Have Have you
[1:14:09] Is this property already subdivided? Is
[1:14:12] the the lot that he's on, is it already
[1:14:14] a subdivided lot? Can you back up to the
[1:14:17] ones with the orange line? Sure.
[1:14:20] Matters. It's divided by the road. The part in yellow is actually a
[1:14:25] separate lot. Uh it doesn't need to be
[1:14:27] subdivided. Okay. And now that's where
[1:14:30] he's
[1:14:31] It gets a little tricky. Yeah.
[1:14:36] But I didn't.
[1:14:38] Well, so are you dedicating that whole
[1:14:40] lot as their their building? And
[1:14:44] so technically they have frontage. We
[1:14:46] love our daughter and son-in-law because
[1:14:49] if we deed them this lot,
[1:14:52] they get our burn, right?
[1:14:56] You don't get to use it, but you're
[1:14:58] going to own it.
[1:15:00] We have frontage on a class 3 town
[1:15:03] highway. So, that makes it a legal
[1:15:04] building, right? You just ask and use
[1:15:06] the trail as a driveway to access this
[1:15:09] new house. Yes. Right. We And because
[1:15:12] it's open, somebody anybody else could
[1:15:14] drive it. Um, you can't if it's open
[1:15:18] traffic, it's open to traffic. And and I
[1:15:22] Joe, didn't we talk about making some
[1:15:24] kind of little hammerhead there so that
[1:15:27] if somebody inadvertently comes up
[1:15:28] through there, they aren't driving all
[1:15:29] the way up to the house? Would it be
[1:15:31] accept fire and police and emergency
[1:15:33] vehicles? That hasn't been discussed.
[1:15:36] That would be discussed with the new
[1:15:38] fire chief to make sure that the
[1:15:40] radiuses are okay. So there's no call to
[1:15:42] just because you want to make it a
[1:15:44] driver doesn't mean you have to widen
[1:15:45] it. It's already a 50 foot wide rideway
[1:15:47] as long as it's that's correct wide
[1:15:49] enough to get vehicles through there.
[1:15:51] shouldn't be any need to widen it.
[1:15:54] And even think about taking it to a
[1:15:56] class three. Two things. It would look
[1:15:58] like the Dickens because you'd cut all
[1:16:00] the maple trees down and it wouldn't
[1:16:02] match this half. It doesn't meet class
[1:16:03] three standards either. Right.
[1:16:06] I'm okay with it. Now the agreement that
[1:16:08] was proposed by the attorney, it's only
[1:16:12] for your daughter and son. Is that
[1:16:15] correct? It's not transferable at that
[1:16:17] house. If they decide not to build the
[1:16:19] house or they circumstances change, they
[1:16:21] build a house and they have to leave and
[1:16:23] go somewhere else. Do all this this
[1:16:26] agreement would apply to current and
[1:16:28] future owners of this property?
[1:16:32] That's a good question. I don't have a
[1:16:33] definitive answer. Yeah, I think that
[1:16:35] would make sense. Yeah,
[1:16:38] someday we'll be dead and gone. Uh, and
[1:16:42] uh hopefully sometime soon. Yeah, but uh
[1:16:44] at that time um they may decide that it
[1:16:48] makes more sense to try to come up with
[1:16:49] a 10acre lot cuz we own beyond
[1:16:54] there's actually three parcels there and
[1:16:57] uh we owned a significant chunk beyond
[1:17:01] to the souththeast of or smuggly south
[1:17:04] of of the lot that was outlined in
[1:17:06] yellow. How big is this lot? They want
[1:17:11] to know that wasn't 20.
[1:17:15] Yeah, I can't remember off the top of my
[1:17:16] head. I believe it was about 20 acres,
[1:17:19] just a little.
[1:17:23] It was pinned and and on GIF, so you can
[1:17:26] it'll actually tell you what it is, but
[1:17:27] I don't recall. It's more than 10.
[1:17:29] What's the zoning in the street? 10.
[1:17:32] So, you have a legal building lot.
[1:17:34] You've got frontage on two class three
[1:17:37] town highways. So, you don't have to
[1:17:39] worry about that. So, he just looking
[1:17:40] for a driveway. Yeah. Yes. Is there any
[1:17:42] other reason why he can't create a
[1:17:44] driveway off the class three?
[1:17:46] Is this a money-saving thing or Joe?
[1:17:50] Yeah, it's I mean some of that is under
[1:17:53] consideration for sure, but also just
[1:17:55] when any type of future subdivision
[1:17:57] might happen or subdividing it out, I
[1:18:00] think it makes more sense for it to
[1:18:02] follow that line. Um
[1:18:05] up um as we reviewed it with John, we
[1:18:07] felt like that was the best practice.
[1:18:11] So, this is opening the door to future
[1:18:13] development by allowing this driveway on
[1:18:15] a trail. Well, we we've been talking to
[1:18:18] um Upper Valley, we we don't intend for
[1:18:21] it to lead to more de uh to more
[1:18:24] development. We've been talking to um
[1:18:28] Yeah. But but the people at the Upper
[1:18:30] Valley Land Trust are giving away more
[1:18:33] of our development. Incidentally, um
[1:18:36] just another thing if you subdivide it, creates well actually we still got a
[1:18:40] hurdle to go through with our land trust
[1:18:42] because even if we sell them to CC and
[1:18:45] Joe, we have to get permission from
[1:18:47] them. Uh because they have a
[1:18:52] develop they have easements on from
[1:18:55] about here to another stone wall here in
[1:18:59] conservation.
[1:19:01] Uh so everything like right here it's a
[1:19:04] conservation uh there where they're
[1:19:06] proposing the house. You can see a
[1:19:08] clearing right here that's not it's just
[1:19:11] this side of it is where the
[1:19:13] conservation stone wall that comes from
[1:19:15] this pin here and basically goes
[1:19:17] straight to another stone wall and then
[1:19:19] there's a swath of a conservation that
[1:19:22] goes all the way over to bridge. Um but
[1:19:26] this development site is outside of the
[1:19:28] conation. Well, we still get over the
[1:19:29] hurdle of um a permission to to uh sell
[1:19:36] that lot or and this isn't a real good
[1:19:39] option. We own it and they build on it
[1:19:42] and and that's not a real good option.
[1:19:44] That's going to create a major hurdle at
[1:19:46] some point. But we we actually haven't
[1:19:49] heard back from them. No. Um because we
[1:19:52] did with we actually got them out there
[1:19:55] and we walked the entire perimeter of
[1:19:59] the conserved land because their wordage
[1:20:02] reference the seller hole that doesn't
[1:20:04] exist. Uh it reference it says it's 25
[1:20:08] ft off the old cellar hole and the only
[1:20:11] thing we can think of is there used to
[1:20:13] be an addition on the barn and and I put
[1:20:14] a stake up and it lines up perfectly
[1:20:17] with this stone wall and the next stone
[1:20:19] wall and this is the land that protects
[1:20:20] the historic not going around skyline.
[1:20:24] No no like they didn't know either. So
[1:20:29] that they were supposed to I think they
[1:20:31] didn't they say they were trying to
[1:20:32] clean that up? Yes, because that also
[1:20:34] references a stone wall up here and the
[1:20:37] stone wall isn't there. It's down here
[1:20:39] and and they were in agreement that
[1:20:40] that's where it is.
[1:20:42] Hey, uh I love the the land lesson, but
[1:20:46] the real question is around the
[1:20:48] upgrading and maintenance of the road,
[1:20:49] right? The rest go through permitting
[1:20:52] and and and do all that as far as
[1:20:55] whether you can do whatever or not. Um,
[1:20:58] so I what I wonder is because I think
[1:21:01] it's important to be consistent is
[1:21:03] what's the process if it's a class 4 to
[1:21:05] give uh people the ability to write
[1:21:07] maintain or or or improve that road. Um,
[1:21:11] and what's been the process of for a
[1:21:13] trail in the past for maintaining uh
[1:21:15] because we're not right dictating
[1:21:17] whether you intend to subdivide or not
[1:21:19] whatever uh like that that that'll be up
[1:21:22] to you at some point uh as land owners.
[1:21:24] What we're what all we're doing all the
[1:21:26] request I see is can we can we upgrade
[1:21:29] that to use it to access
[1:21:33] whether it's the field or a home right
[1:21:35] uh it doesn't matter if they build to me
[1:21:37] the request is it doesn't matter if they
[1:21:39] build the house or not they're just
[1:21:40] asking for being able to upgrade it to
[1:21:42] maybe potentially build it which gives
[1:21:44] us context but it could be to be doing a
[1:21:46] lot of work in that the field right or
[1:21:49] on the in the wood lot uh so that so I
[1:21:52] just we need to you know consist process
[1:21:55] for whether it's class 4 or a trail or
[1:21:58] when when we consider it allowable or
[1:22:00] not allowable and to make sure that it's
[1:22:03] right and it's clear whenever that
[1:22:06] happens whether it's this trail or a
[1:22:09] different trail uh that it's clear who's
[1:22:11] maintaining what uh and so if somebody
[1:22:14] drives a monster truck down there and
[1:22:16] wrecks it was right because much as I
[1:22:20] like mud season roads um uh that I mean
[1:22:25] so we're just clear about that and that
[1:22:26] just there's a decision-m process I'm
[1:22:29] guessing you've decided the board has
[1:22:31] decided stuff like this in the past on
[1:22:33] class 4 roads uh and it seems like if
[1:22:36] there is a process in place for class 4
[1:22:39] roads and it seems similar to to a trail
[1:22:42] then that's the process we should use to
[1:22:44] make the decision
[1:22:47] and that's ahead if the board is more
[1:22:51] comfortable with it going to a for the
[1:22:54] hoops aren't uh astronomical, but
[1:22:57] nonetheless, it's not a whole lot
[1:22:59] different than the road that you abandon
[1:23:01] off of Cook Strong Road. You know, you
[1:23:04] got to go and framulate. You got to do
[1:23:05] this, you got to do that to to go from a
[1:23:08] trail to a four and and then when it's
[1:23:11] all that said and done, we come in and
[1:23:13] ask a class 4 and the end results
[1:23:15] exactly the same.
[1:23:18] I just I just think we need a consistent
[1:23:19] process that we follow. I mean, we have
[1:23:21] one
[1:23:23] and and right now it's in the hands of
[1:23:25] the DIB is where that would be. Um John
[1:23:29] is same is this this is sort of uh a
[1:23:34] breakdown from the previous uh
[1:23:36] submission to the planning commission
[1:23:38] for subdivision that it's not on the
[1:23:40] back burner and this is a resurrection
[1:23:42] of it. Uh that that's what I was
[1:23:44] wondering. Now, if I recall from that,
[1:23:49] isn't the property
[1:23:52] um as as we're looking at this your your
[1:23:54] side where your house is and and that lower lot, isn't that three to five
[1:24:00] on that side of the road?
[1:24:03] I I think we found that shaded as 10,
[1:24:07] but uh I could be wrong. Regardless, I
[1:24:09] thought it was three to five on that
[1:24:11] side of the You may be right. You may be
[1:24:13] right. It's 10. It's 10. X10 on the
[1:24:15] other side and you were the way you were
[1:24:17] trying to break it out had to do with
[1:24:19] the conservation stuff that you didn't
[1:24:21] want to affect that. So you had moved
[1:24:23] and shifted and you were actually
[1:24:25] crossing the road and you would have
[1:24:27] been creating like a 3acre lot on the
[1:24:29] right hand side of the road. Yeah. That
[1:24:31] would have been in C10 which would have
[1:24:33] been non-conforming in the C10 area. Um,
[1:24:38] so but but but if you're if you're if
[1:24:41] you're going to stay on that side of
[1:24:42] that road, it's 3 to five. And unless
[1:24:46] this is actually a um accessory
[1:24:49] dwelling,
[1:24:51] then it probably should be going through
[1:24:52] planning, not planning, but DV now
[1:24:55] because they handle subdivisions. should
[1:24:58] I mean
[1:25:00] they I understand that
[1:25:02] but but it would if it's going to be an
[1:25:04] accessory dwelling you're putting a
[1:25:06] second building on No this isn't this
[1:25:09] isn't a residence on the plot the
[1:25:11] residence is on the other side of the
[1:25:12] road correct
[1:25:15] house what you're looking at that's the
[1:25:18] barn that's his house that's the
[1:25:20] proposed house but this building here is
[1:25:22] a barn okay
[1:25:24] John's house is on the other side the
[1:25:26] tea
[1:25:27] Okay. Yes. So that would be the only
[1:25:30] residence on the slot. There's no
[1:25:31] subdividing me.
[1:25:34] Nothing but memory because I had
[1:25:36] forgotten that they didn't talk about
[1:25:38] going across the road to come up with
[1:25:40] the right uh Yeah. And then you get into
[1:25:43] a kind of a sticky wicket. Yeah. Yeah.
[1:25:47] That's what I recall happening
[1:25:49] there. I'm not not trying to stop this.
[1:25:51] I'm just trying to find the easiest and
[1:25:52] the right avenue. Like I said, you're
[1:25:54] right in consistency in the process. Um
[1:26:00] I think Yeah, I saw writing his hand up.
[1:26:02] I might took a pause there. I was
[1:26:04] waiting to see if he was going to
[1:26:06] continue. No, it's okay.
[1:26:10] So, I did do a bunch of research on this
[1:26:12] to find out what the best way is for the
[1:26:13] town and the residents. Um you can keep
[1:26:16] it a trail and they can get permission
[1:26:18] to work on a trail just like get
[1:26:20] permission to work on class 4 road. Um
[1:26:23] that would the same process would be put
[1:26:25] on if they want to do something down
[1:26:26] there or any other legal trail we have
[1:26:28] in town. It would be discussion in the
[1:26:30] same process. Um if we make it a class
[1:26:33] four we're going to have legal expenses.
[1:26:35] We're going to have a lot of time and
[1:26:36] energy put into laying it out and coming
[1:26:38] to hearings. I know it's doesn't seem
[1:26:40] like a big deal but it is a lot of work
[1:26:42] and it is an extra expense to the town.
[1:26:44] um we can achieve the same goals by
[1:26:46] keeping this trail and keep it easy for
[1:26:48] these folks if there's ever a desire to
[1:26:50] 30 years down the road subdivide this
[1:26:53] will be here anyway hopefully I'll be
[1:26:54] done by then um but it'll go through the
[1:26:57] process of zoning and everything else
[1:26:58] all the regulations if they want to make
[1:27:00] it class three road then they would have
[1:27:01] to bring it up the specs and then down
[1:27:03] could could or could not take it off so
[1:27:05] this is the best way I can come up with
[1:27:08] to describe it to Brandon and and John
[1:27:10] and these folks on how to do it and all
[1:27:13] the books and make it reasonable with
[1:27:16] everybody. So, we are following that
[1:27:20] procedure to do class. We did meet with
[1:27:22] the town attorney on this because the
[1:27:24] proposal was to use legal trail six. Um,
[1:27:28] it wasn't to change it to a class four
[1:27:30] road or a class three road. Um so what
[1:27:33] we we recommended here is in this
[1:27:36] paragraph here came from the town
[1:27:38] attorney. Um these would be our proposed
[1:27:41] next steps on the board
[1:27:45] and the thing is to protect the town and the residents that
[1:27:50] are having the house there and make sure
[1:27:52] we understands and it's clearly written
[1:27:54] and defined that this is a public road.
[1:27:57] No private signs. So they can post their
[1:27:59] driveway and say keep out. But people
[1:28:00] are going to be able to drive up this
[1:28:02] road if they accidentally drive up it
[1:28:04] and you're not going to be able to chase
[1:28:05] them off pitch books or whatever. You
[1:28:07] know that that's what I'm trying to
[1:28:08] protect us from. Um
[1:28:11] and it would be you know IRF would
[1:28:13] discuss it with the fire, you know, fire
[1:28:15] apparatus be good turn fire truck and
[1:28:18] park there and another truck can go in a
[1:28:20] fire. you know, it's all kind of has
[1:28:22] been and and one other thing, there is
[1:28:25] precedence in the trail being improved
[1:28:27] and not very far from where we live. Um,
[1:28:30] if you go out uh you lane and where it
[1:28:33] turns into a trail has been
[1:28:35] significantly improved. It was done
[1:28:37] primarily for logging trucks, but
[1:28:39] nonetheless, it significantly improved.
[1:28:42] I think that went before the board, but
[1:28:44] um maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but I
[1:28:46] don't think it did. Um and and but I'm
[1:28:49] going to back and I hope that this
[1:28:52] triggers a review of the policy u so
[1:28:56] that it's more definitive answer on what
[1:28:58] you can and cannot do on the trail. Can
[1:29:00] you gain it uh when it more or less
[1:29:03] becomes a dependent road or do you have
[1:29:04] to leave it open to put up signage no
[1:29:06] vehicle? I don't know. But um you may
[1:29:09] want to look at that. There are other
[1:29:10] trails in town that probably need to be
[1:29:13] addressed so this discussion is easier
[1:29:16] to have. Kelly, there there is another
[1:29:19] place that I do recall the ancient roads
[1:29:23] committee issue and when those those
[1:29:26] roads came up or those conversions to
[1:29:29] trails or whatever at that time uh a
[1:29:33] trail did say that no motorized needs
[1:29:37] and so so we do need to find that and
[1:29:40] make sure that got changed. Um and and
[1:29:44] the other thing is in in this proposed
[1:29:47] um uh next steps, the four next steps,
[1:29:51] would it be appropriate to to include
[1:29:53] the Arisons in some of that? I know
[1:29:55] we're talking about changing the trail,
[1:29:57] but the road and the trail are kind of
[1:30:00] one and and if you're talking about
[1:30:02] changes that are needed, they've
[1:30:03] mentioned a few and what's going on.
[1:30:05] Should they be listed in there? Is just
[1:30:07] to make sure that everybody that's up
[1:30:09] there is on the same page and it's part
[1:30:11] of your It's up to you guys. I don't
[1:30:13] have a problem meeting with the TARS and
[1:30:15] the Arisons to review. Um I I just you
[1:30:20] know if we're going to move in that
[1:30:22] direction I'm just suggesting maybe your
[1:30:25] names are in the these
[1:30:28] right we are still the owner of that
[1:30:30] lot. Yeah. And um that we haven't gotten
[1:30:33] that part of that and how we're going to
[1:30:35] handle that.
[1:30:40] We have discussed what happens if you
[1:30:42] guys get divorced.
[1:30:46] This being that nonetheless, things
[1:30:48] happen. Yeah. And if somebody else own
[1:30:51] the barn across the road,
[1:30:55] you start charging rent. Yeah.
[1:30:58] Feeling fluffy. And now now is divorce.
[1:31:01] I mean he says that but I think it is
[1:31:03] important right because might not be
[1:31:05] owned by the same family and that's the
[1:31:08] way it has to be considered.
[1:31:10] Well that's what brought me back to the
[1:31:12] uh the DRB and the planning commission
[1:31:15] which gave up the subdivisions because
[1:31:17] you do have property on both sides of
[1:31:19] the roads here. But I do I do recall
[1:31:22] this this lower section is three to
[1:31:24] five. pretty sure on the
[1:31:27] that would be the south side of the
[1:31:29] class three where your barn is, right?
[1:31:31] Yep. That's that's the south side. Yeah.
[1:31:33] Right. I'm pretty I'm I'm positive that
[1:31:37] side is three to five maybe. Right. And and pretty from that from that
[1:31:42] subdivision you submitted a year or two
[1:31:44] ago. I think it was and the the other
[1:31:47] side is 10. So I think they got that law is over 10 acres 20 acres I
[1:31:52] think you said.
[1:31:54] could easily subdivide three acres off
[1:31:56] there and separate the barn from those
[1:31:59] if you wanted to do that. I'm just but I
[1:32:01] don't think any of that matters in this discussion. It doesn't in the
[1:32:05] future it may there's I'm just pointing
[1:32:08] out that it's the ability to do that.
[1:32:10] You don't have to do 10 acres on that
[1:32:11] over there for that house. And and there
[1:32:13] may be a way to to configure it so you
[1:32:16] don't have to do a land trust. We still
[1:32:18] own that land, right? And and they
[1:32:22] wouldn't we don't have front yard. But
[1:32:25] all I mean is we just have to be
[1:32:27] consistent around anytime anybody asked
[1:32:29] for a trail or change it from foot
[1:32:31] traffic only to motorized. We just have
[1:32:34] to have a that that's where we have to
[1:32:36] be consistent whether it's this
[1:32:37] situation or right any trail that's
[1:32:40] designated a trail you just be
[1:32:42] consistent on the process to change it
[1:32:45] to allow motorized or improvements. I'm
[1:32:48] all about improving the trails because I
[1:32:49] think they're a great asset to the town.
[1:32:52] Uh and I think it's done well by other
[1:32:54] communities who are using their class
[1:32:57] four roads and their their trails.
[1:33:00] Brandon, do you did you craft a motion
[1:33:02] for this? Uh to approve the request
[1:33:04] subject to conditions to be outlined in
[1:33:06] a formal agreement and its proposed next
[1:33:09] steps. So the select board, if it feels
[1:33:12] comfortable, would approve the request
[1:33:15] subject to conditions that the county
[1:33:17] attorney
[1:33:18] and I will create for the next meeting.
[1:33:22] Okay. So you don't need a motion to make
[1:33:24] or you do. I don't I don't I'm not
[1:33:26] ready.
[1:33:28] That's where I was trying to get, you
[1:33:30] know, I wanted John I wanted John in
[1:33:32] here, Patty's answer. So, you guys want
[1:33:35] us to negotiate an agreement prior to a
[1:33:38] motion? I do. Okay. I think personally
[1:33:41] just there seem to be a lot of
[1:33:43] uncertainties. Number one, it's a
[1:33:45] precedent to allow residential
[1:33:46] development off of a trail and I'm not
[1:33:49] sure what kind of Pandora's box that
[1:33:52] might open. I'm I'm more comfortable
[1:33:55] with I know we have given permission
[1:33:57] when I say we I mean this board has
[1:33:59] given permission for people to
[1:34:03] develop residential properties off of
[1:34:05] class 4 town highways that we've done
[1:34:08] before and I'm I'm I'm more comfortable
[1:34:11] with that than I am. This seems like a
[1:34:15] house of cards to me a little bit. It's
[1:34:17] this very specific situation. Um the
[1:34:21] future I want to make an agreement that
[1:34:24] is going to be solid through the future
[1:34:26] regardless of who the parties are that
[1:34:28] are involved so that we're not keeping
[1:34:31] track of are they still married? Are you
[1:34:33] guys still talking to each other? Um who
[1:34:37] who's taking care of the barn? I I just
[1:34:40] want to see us work out something that
[1:34:42] gives them the access that they want but
[1:34:44] is durable through the future regardless
[1:34:46] of who the property owners are and what
[1:34:49] trail we're talking about, right? Like
[1:34:50] this is about this trail, but there's
[1:34:52] other trails.
[1:34:54] Do we want to allow development on
[1:34:56] trails or do we want But what what
[1:34:58] you're bringing up doesn't isn't that
[1:35:00] what we did at the planning commission
[1:35:01] with subdivision?
[1:35:03] Well, subdivision you have to have
[1:35:05] frontage on on a high on a town highway
[1:35:07] and a trail is not a town highway. Class
[1:35:10] is class which is back to your point
[1:35:13] which you've given permission. But but
[1:35:15] when you're talking about the future and
[1:35:16] longevity and all of that stuff, you're back to creating a lot that is
[1:35:23] usable in the future. What we talk about
[1:35:26] providing access to a lot that's durable
[1:35:29] over time, not a specific agreement for
[1:35:32] this particular situation in these
[1:35:35] particular parties that may not hold up
[1:35:37] in the future.
[1:35:40] Well, that's why I'm thinking
[1:35:41] subdivision is probably I don't see that
[1:35:44] subdivision is necessary in this case.
[1:35:47] There is a freestanding lot. It's
[1:35:48] naturally created by the roads that
[1:35:50] surround it. There's no other house on
[1:35:54] this lot. So, subdivision isn't
[1:35:56] necessary. Okay. If they want to divide
[1:35:58] the house off from the barn, then that
[1:36:01] becomes they still have front edge on
[1:36:03] the center road here. Whether it's
[1:36:04] accessible or not is never been
[1:36:07] required. Oh, I I see what you're
[1:36:09] saying. See what I'm saying? Yeah. See,
[1:36:10] technically they have this lot has
[1:36:13] usable frontage on two class 3 town
[1:36:16] highways. In fact, road is class two.
[1:36:19] Should we ask for review from the DRB on
[1:36:21] this? I don't think so. I think
[1:36:25] the question is, do we want to
[1:36:28] set by allowing residential development
[1:36:31] off of a trail?
[1:36:33] That that for me is my piece.
[1:36:36] I'm I'm more comfortable. Yes, it's just
[1:36:38] probably an academic exercise, but I I'm
[1:36:42] more comfortable with
[1:36:44] upgrading
[1:36:46] reclassifying that section of this trail
[1:36:48] to a class 4. It was class 4 before. Put
[1:36:51] it back to a class 4 and then give them
[1:36:54] permission to have their driveway off.
[1:36:56] Then it becomes a highway. And that for
[1:36:59] me solves a lot of regardless of the
[1:37:02] importance.
[1:37:05] Yeah. And being being a separate law,
[1:37:07] you know, you know, if you lose your
[1:37:08] barn, that's that's on you. Yeah. You
[1:37:11] might have to move it across.
[1:37:15] Well, I just and if we're diligent about
[1:37:17] it, the trans changing it from from a
[1:37:20] trail I understand your point completely
[1:37:23] um into changing it to that section to a
[1:37:26] class 4 could take place fairly rapidly
[1:37:30] with a few meetings and you guys come
[1:37:32] out and visit and all that. You get to
[1:37:34] see the pretty view and all that. I
[1:37:36] don't I don't see that as a as a Well,
[1:37:38] we can formulate it in the pouring
[1:37:40] array.
[1:37:42] I'll bring my Do we have to survey it?
[1:37:45] That's always been thrown up every time
[1:37:47] we try to reclassify the Crown Point
[1:37:49] Road to a trail. We have to survey.
[1:37:52] Yeah, we reclassified part of Katy Hill
[1:37:55] Road without surveying.
[1:37:58] We went from a class three to a class 4
[1:38:00] and it was not survey. We uh went from a
[1:38:03] class three to a trail. Well, whatever
[1:38:07] it was, you reclassified it without
[1:38:09] surveying. So, it's not like we've
[1:38:11] jumped on this before.
[1:38:14] What's the one What's the one off the
[1:38:16] Katy Hill that goes up to Binghams? We
[1:38:18] did that. That That one got upgraded.
[1:38:21] Yeah, that was changed. I I don't think
[1:38:23] that was right. You're still going to
[1:38:26] have a can of worms if you take and turn
[1:38:29] it into a class 4 so they can use it for
[1:38:31] their driveway. How you going to what's
[1:38:34] going to happen to every trail in town
[1:38:35] if somebody wants to to turn that into a
[1:38:37] class four? You're still going to be in
[1:38:39] the same the same legal basis, right?
[1:38:42] But you're still going to be in the same
[1:38:43] You're going to have to really do what's
[1:38:45] the policy for what's the criteria for
[1:38:47] making a trail to a class 4. It's in
[1:38:49] statute.
[1:38:51] I guess my point is if I came to you and
[1:38:53] I said I wanted to make
[1:38:56] another trail in town, a class 4, you
[1:38:58] told me no because you wanted to keep
[1:39:00] that a trail. How come you told them yes
[1:39:02] and telling me no? That's the point I'm
[1:39:04] trying to make with every case is
[1:39:05] different. Yeah. You have to review each
[1:39:08] case separately because every case is
[1:39:10] absolutely different depending on where
[1:39:12] you are at the public. We have a public
[1:39:15] meeting that gets warmed. Um we notify
[1:39:18] Butters
[1:39:21] if we're going to go through the class 4
[1:39:22] road process that's fine as well. In
[1:39:25] this case the butter list is pretty
[1:39:26] short.
[1:39:30] So,
[1:39:33] is there anything we have to do tonight
[1:39:35] for this or I I guess I'm just kind of
[1:39:38] looking for some direction. Do we want
[1:39:40] to go the class 4 road process or
[1:39:46] want me to kind of move in the direction
[1:39:47] of using the trail for the access? Do
[1:39:51] you guys want to see what both options
[1:39:54] look like for the next meeting?
[1:39:57] I don't want this to drag on too long
[1:39:58] for these folks. Yeah,
[1:40:01] we already did drag it on a little bit
[1:40:03] because I was looking to get guidance
[1:40:05] from town council on this. It did take a
[1:40:08] couple of couple of meetings to get back
[1:40:10] to it. Um, which isn't a
[1:40:14] request to rush the process. Well, I say
[1:40:18] perhaps the question we got to do is
[1:40:20] find out about that motorized vehicle
[1:40:21] thing they used to be paying. If that's
[1:40:24] I found anything I put something into
[1:40:26] the LCT the municipal assistance center
[1:40:28] to ask that question. I couldn't find
[1:40:30] any statuto reference to that, but I
[1:40:31] know it was in place on the ancient
[1:40:33] roads.
[1:40:35] If it was, it should be it should be
[1:40:36] repealed. There should be a number for
[1:40:38] it. It was would have been repealed.
[1:40:40] Would it be in somewhere located in the
[1:40:42] minutes or documents of our ancient
[1:40:43] roads? I I didn't come into the road.
[1:40:48] I put in a request for
[1:40:52] municipal see if you can I I think
[1:40:56] and and maybe that solves part of that
[1:40:59] problem but you're still talking about a
[1:41:02] trail and a and you know driveway access
[1:41:05] off in this case the trail is not being
[1:41:07] used as frontage
[1:41:10] technically if it was being used as
[1:41:13] frontage I would be adamant to vote in
[1:41:15] the last war But it's not. There's
[1:41:19] plenty of frontage on this lot to
[1:41:20] satisfy that require. They just want a
[1:41:23] driveway.
[1:41:41] I'm ready. Would be okay.
[1:41:47] to come back to the select board with an
[1:41:49] avenue for both and answer all the
[1:41:51] questions and then they can make a
[1:41:52] choice to whether go to class 4 trail
[1:41:55] get more answers on the motorized
[1:41:57] vehicle and the process and all that.
[1:42:00] Absolutely. prepared to the next meeting
[1:42:03] June 23rd. Yeah, if that's the way the
[1:42:05] board wants, you know,
[1:42:12] if if that's where we go, then we
[1:42:15] parallel request to upgrade a class four
[1:42:17] road exactly the same time so we get to
[1:42:20] the finish line together.
[1:42:22] That way we know the whole process for
[1:42:23] both and you guys can make a decision
[1:42:25] based on what we want updating for
[1:42:28] policies.
[1:42:29] Do you want to see what a general policy
[1:42:32] would look like? We don't show these as
[1:42:34] well.
[1:42:37] Not
[1:42:39] to do it. Okay. Let's bring this to the
[1:42:42] finish line. All right.
[1:42:45] I agree.
[1:42:50] Thank you.
[1:42:52] This is
[1:42:54] Thank you. We see you at our next
[1:42:56] meeting. Yes, absolutely. Thank you.
[1:43:00] Started rolling it down. We'll figure it
[1:43:02] out. Yeah.
[1:43:04] Okay. Next item. Number 10, purchase and
[1:43:06] policy. The second reading.
[1:43:21] Um, what changed?
[1:43:24] Um, so there there have been some
[1:43:26] changes. Um, I received uh input from
[1:43:29] the treasurer and also the accountant.
[1:43:31] um upon the purching policy. We also
[1:43:34] made the changes that you requested in
[1:43:36] the last meeting which is number one. Um
[1:43:39] section 3.2
[1:43:41] removed the phrase except for employee
[1:43:43] reimbursement. We'll continue to use the
[1:43:46] existing one that's been working well.
[1:43:48] Um
[1:43:49] section 3.2 2, we added the requirement
[1:43:52] that all designates must be approved in
[1:43:54] advance for the kind of content,
[1:43:58] which is like if Ray State wanted to
[1:44:02] designate a person within the highway
[1:44:04] department to be able to make purchases
[1:44:07] on his behalf, the accountant would just
[1:44:09] need to be notified about that
[1:44:10] improvement.
[1:44:12] Um,
[1:44:14] section 3.2 remove the sentence.
[1:44:16] employee reimbursements regardless of
[1:44:18] the amount require a purchase order and
[1:44:19] prepared. Again, our existing form is
[1:44:22] working well. Um, and it seemed to be
[1:44:25] fine with the treasurer and also the
[1:44:26] accountant. Um, and so
[1:44:29] section 3.3 the wording by changing
[1:44:32] between to overt adjusted the threshold
[1:44:35] from 501 to 500 and added up to 4200. So
[1:44:39] it's just something
[1:44:43] 23 updated language
[1:44:45] to do not require the approval in
[1:44:47] advance from the town manager but should
[1:44:49] be submitted to the finance department
[1:44:51] within 72 hours. Um and again that's
[1:44:54] just so that the accountant can be
[1:44:56] informed
[1:44:58] um on any purchases that are made so she
[1:45:01] has an understanding when it comes to
[1:45:02] the warrant.
[1:45:04] Sections 3.4 4 replace between with over
[1:45:07] and add up to and then we added a new
[1:45:11] clause for employee reimbursements
[1:45:13] section 3.8 Okay.
[1:45:32] Is there, forgive me if this is a dumb
[1:45:36] question, the things that are eligible
[1:45:38] for reimbursement, is that categorized
[1:45:41] somewhere, listed somewhere, provided in
[1:45:43] the purchasing policy? Um so we the way
[1:45:47] we define that is um
[1:45:52] as a as an account expense that an
[1:45:55] employee made. So like if I think for in
[1:46:00] the highway department for example
[1:46:02] employees purchase boots and then they
[1:46:04] get reimbured for them. Um
[1:46:07] also occasionally if a an employee goes
[1:46:10] to a conference and then decides to stay
[1:46:13] overnight we pay for it in advance we
[1:46:15] would reimburse the hotel with hotel
[1:46:17] expenses. Um there are other common
[1:46:20] expenses like when the fire departments
[1:46:23] um are on scene and they buy coffee and
[1:46:25] donuts and they ask for reimbursement
[1:46:27] for that. So it's it's a lot of
[1:46:30] sometimes it's pizza. Has there been any
[1:46:36] difficulties with that years ago like
[1:46:39] but for the most part people understand
[1:46:41] they need to either ask ahead of time is
[1:46:43] this eligible or they make the correct
[1:46:45] assumption I haven't had any issues
[1:46:47] since I don't want to make it an issue
[1:46:49] if it's since 2020 I think was the last
[1:46:53] issue with expense reimbursements and it
[1:46:56] was cleared up so if it becomes an issue
[1:46:59] we could always spell it out there but
[1:47:01] absolutely right now it's not a No, not
[1:47:04] at all. Yeah, it seems like if it was a
[1:47:07] request for something that would be an
[1:47:09] issue, it wouldn't be denied. As long as
[1:47:11] they seem to ask, too. If they don't and
[1:47:13] assume it's going to be okay and it's
[1:47:15] not punishable. Well, problem. Well,
[1:47:19] exactly.
[1:47:21] But, um, I don't want to make it a
[1:47:22] problem. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone's very
[1:47:24] reasonable. Yeah. That I've worked with
[1:47:26] in the past and and currently. And this
[1:47:29] is all receipts. Receipt. It's called
[1:47:32] reimbursement. you know, you have to
[1:47:33] produce a receipt for the hotel room or
[1:47:35] the boots or whatever. The biggest
[1:47:38] issues we were having in the past is not
[1:47:39] receiving receipts
[1:47:42] and we didn't like that too much because
[1:47:44] like you go to the pizza shop, you get a
[1:47:47] couple of pizzas. We just want to be
[1:47:49] sure that it's not fair or anything in
[1:47:51] there. It's something that the treasurer
[1:47:53] really wanted. um
[1:47:56] has to be an item just so that we can
[1:48:00] have the newspaper that shows it. Plus,
[1:48:02] it I don't think any employee would
[1:48:04] actually ask for reimbursement, but
[1:48:08] maybe it went back
[1:48:13] to the third reading. Okay, second.
[1:48:16] Any discussion?
[1:48:18] All those in favor? I I
[1:48:22] next time.
[1:48:26] And uh
[1:48:30] yeah, Brian Dumbart, you're up next for
[1:48:32] the nuisance and unkempt property
[1:48:34] ordinance.
[1:48:37] Okay.
[1:48:39] Is that in your packet? Because I didn't
[1:48:41] see it in there. I don't see it either.
[1:48:44] There's nothing in it. Yeah, Ryan. I
[1:48:46] didn't have it in my bingo.
[1:48:49] I think I had texted and asked if you
[1:48:52] had sent it.
[1:48:55] Okay. You you read the email that uh it
[1:48:57] was shared with the the town attorney.
[1:49:00] Um he was still reviewing it. We weren't
[1:49:02] sure if he was going to have any
[1:49:03] comments in time for tonight's meeting.
[1:49:05] Um he hasn't he has some general
[1:49:08] comments, you know, that an ordinance is
[1:49:11] a good idea. It's probably the the more
[1:49:14] effective way to handle these issues.
[1:49:16] Um, but I have a draft. He's reviewing
[1:49:19] it. Um, do you how do you want to hand
[1:49:22] do you want me to sort of go over the gist of it just so you're familiar
[1:49:25] with it when it comes around again? Um,
[1:49:28] or do you want to wait for that?
[1:49:31] I have it up. Basically, I can tell you
[1:49:33] the purpose and how things are defined
[1:49:34] and how it works generally.
[1:49:39] Ryan, you can also share your screen if
[1:49:42] you'd like. Okay.
[1:49:46] Well, I guess I can request access from
[1:49:47] you. Yeah, I sent request.
[1:49:56] Okay.
[1:50:04] Are you seeing it?
[1:50:06] You want me to make it bigger?
[1:50:09] Well,
[1:50:15] That work?
[1:50:21] Can you hear me? Is that working?
[1:50:24] Yeah, it's working. We're just like
[1:50:26] reorganizing the screen a little bit
[1:50:29] from the top. Well, I think in generally
[1:50:31] though, just give us a summary because I
[1:50:33] want to end this.
[1:50:38] Sure. So, I'll just I'll read you the
[1:50:40] purpose and then we'll go through kind
[1:50:41] of how it works. The purpose of this
[1:50:43] ordinance is to protect public health,
[1:50:45] safety, and welfare, preserve
[1:50:47] neighborhood character, and promote
[1:50:48] responsible property stewardship by
[1:50:50] providing the town with a comprehensive
[1:50:52] framework to identify, respond to, and
[1:50:54] resolve conditions on properties that
[1:50:56] constitute nuisances or unckempt
[1:50:58] property. The ordinance is designed to
[1:51:01] work in coordination with zoning,
[1:51:02] health, and solid waste laws to provide
[1:51:05] the town with a flexible and enforcable
[1:51:07] set of tools, including and the
[1:51:10] including the ability to abate
[1:51:11] violations and recover associated costs
[1:51:14] via enforcable leans. And so when when
[1:51:17] we talked the first time, I just sort of
[1:51:19] brought it up as a general question
[1:51:21] about how the board feels about this
[1:51:22] issue of properties becoming um overrun
[1:51:27] with with junk and discarded items or or
[1:51:30] things that people say are their their
[1:51:32] possessions um hoarding situations,
[1:51:35] different things like that that I get
[1:51:38] somewhat frequent um complaints about.
[1:51:42] and the zoning
[1:51:44] path for violations in compliance is
[1:51:48] just not that um effective or
[1:51:51] costefficient. So, if I were to issue a
[1:51:55] violation on a property
[1:51:58] um for this this reason, um one of the
[1:52:02] avenues that's been tried in the past
[1:52:05] under past administrators
[1:52:07] um is to issue a violation that the
[1:52:11] property owner is operating a junkyard
[1:52:14] as defined without a permit to do so.
[1:52:18] Um, and that has been appealed to the zoning board in the past who
[1:52:25] basically said that the zoning bylaw the
[1:52:27] definition was too vague um and it
[1:52:29] wasn't enforceable. And so since then
[1:52:32] nothing's changed with the the
[1:52:33] definition of that. But um even if the
[1:52:37] board upheld it um and there was a
[1:52:41] active violation on the property, in
[1:52:43] theory that means that it gets fined on
[1:52:45] a daily basis. But in practice, it does
[1:52:48] need to be um the the select board needs
[1:52:51] to dictate that this goes to the court
[1:52:54] and then the environmental court needs
[1:52:56] to agree um with the town's decision and
[1:52:59] they then set the the fines and the
[1:53:03] amount um and when they become
[1:53:05] effective. Usually they're a little bit
[1:53:07] more lenient. They'll give you 6 months
[1:53:09] to clean up um where maybe this has
[1:53:11] already been going on for 6 months or
[1:53:13] more. Um and so the primary difference
[1:53:17] is that a st an ordinance on its own
[1:53:20] separate from zoning has the ability to
[1:53:22] create a lean on the property and um
[1:53:27] issue fines kind of like um ticketing
[1:53:31] fees. Um,
[1:53:34] so there's a definition section that
[1:53:36] talks about what a nuisance
[1:53:40] property is and what unckempt property
[1:53:42] is and how those are different. Um, it
[1:53:46] defines who the enforcement officer is
[1:53:48] and a person which is an individual or a
[1:53:52] group um, basically a land owner.
[1:53:56] Um, so those are some things that we
[1:53:58] that might be worth discussing after you
[1:54:00] have some time to look at it is those
[1:54:01] definitions and I'm sure that the
[1:54:03] attorney will have some some advice on
[1:54:06] those. Um,
[1:54:11] so there's I guess the next section just
[1:54:14] sort of clarifies
[1:54:16] what um
[1:54:18] what this ordinance does. And then the
[1:54:21] enforcement framework
[1:54:23] section basically says there there could
[1:54:26] be a zoning option if that's the best
[1:54:28] way to handle it. Um and it can be
[1:54:31] handled through a notice of violation if
[1:54:33] there's a health situation like um
[1:54:36] someone has a lot of garbage and it's
[1:54:38] bringing in um rats or something like
[1:54:41] that and there's documentation. another
[1:54:43] issue that's been kind of hard to move
[1:54:45] forward with because the documentation
[1:54:48] of that is difficult and it doesn't
[1:54:50] really address things ahead of time.
[1:54:51] There has to be rats already causing a
[1:54:54] public health problem um before anything
[1:54:57] can be done there, but that that's still
[1:54:59] an option. Um we do have a solid waste
[1:55:02] ordinance. Um it doesn't talk about
[1:55:06] enforcement or anything like that. um
[1:55:09] but another potential avenue. And then
[1:55:12] under this ordinance, um the enforcement
[1:55:16] officer would issue a municipal
[1:55:18] complaint. I'm not sure if that's the
[1:55:19] appropriate term. The the attorney will clarify that. Um and the violations
[1:55:25] will be subject to penalties. And so
[1:55:27] there's a section that talks about how
[1:55:29] those penalties work. Um
[1:55:35] so it talks about um
[1:55:38] violations that don't get resolved um
[1:55:41] and how the town can um can recover any
[1:55:46] costs associated with this um cost
[1:55:50] incured by the town shall be build to
[1:55:52] the property owner and if unpaid after
[1:55:54] 30 days the town may record a cost as a
[1:55:57] lean against the property and
[1:56:00] that gives the town some actual leverage
[1:56:03] to uh to take take their own action. Um
[1:56:09] and so in practice sometimes what that
[1:56:11] looks like and I I think I brought it up
[1:56:13] last time is what Windsor has done in
[1:56:16] the past from time to time is get a
[1:56:19] dumpster and put it on the property and
[1:56:20] say fill the dumpster and we'll get rid
[1:56:22] of it or something like that. Um maybe
[1:56:24] that means that they'll build them
[1:56:25] afterwards. Ultimately, what we're what
[1:56:27] the goal is is compliance and fixing the
[1:56:29] issue. Um, so if that's if paying for a
[1:56:33] dumpster fixes the issue, that might be
[1:56:35] a whole lot cheaper than going to court.
[1:56:37] Um, and then so the next section talks
[1:56:40] about the penalties. Um, and those
[1:56:43] numbers are just sort of starting points
[1:56:45] and uh the attorney and and you all
[1:56:48] should look at those and whether those
[1:56:50] are appropriate or not. Um,
[1:56:54] and then
[1:56:56] let's see. In addition to penalties, the
[1:56:58] town may seek injunctive relief,
[1:57:00] including cleanup orders, entering the
[1:57:02] property to abate the condition, um,
[1:57:05] recover all associated abatement costs
[1:57:07] from the owner, and file a lean on the
[1:57:08] land records. Um,
[1:57:11] that's that's the majority of it.
[1:57:15] Do you have any questions on that?
[1:57:28] I don't hear anybody say well I I've got
[1:57:30] a lot of them but I mean not right now
[1:57:33] until I have the document completely to
[1:57:35] go over
[1:57:37] and look at. Um any questions about the
[1:57:41] concept
[1:57:43] of enforcing these things?
[1:57:46] The the one question I did have written
[1:57:48] down is and I know we've had this in our
[1:57:51] town um where the state uh was notified
[1:57:55] that there's some language where the
[1:57:57] state has to actually come in and
[1:57:58] declare a junkyard. Yeah. Right. I think
[1:58:03] that's in statute. And we we don't
[1:58:05] actually get to make that determination
[1:58:07] that
[1:58:09] we we have to ask the state for them to
[1:58:11] come in and and give that determination.
[1:58:13] I'm just going to direct that to the
[1:58:14] land use administrator. That question, I
[1:58:17] think that depends if we're going to be
[1:58:19] pursuing it as a state enforcement
[1:58:22] action or a town enforcement action. If
[1:58:23] we want the state to do the work, um
[1:58:26] they obviously need to make sure it
[1:58:28] meets their definitions. But if we're
[1:58:29] going to pursue it as a zoning
[1:58:30] violation, it just has to meet our
[1:58:32] zoning violation or zoning definitions.
[1:58:35] Um and the problem with the state
[1:58:39] enforcement is their capacity. they're
[1:58:41] such a it's such a big area and the
[1:58:44] number of these types of properties is
[1:58:45] really high. Um, and their ability to
[1:58:49] address some of the smaller ones, which
[1:58:52] would be the majority of what we're
[1:58:53] dealing with is it doesn't do it doesn't
[1:58:57] do much. Okay.
[1:59:00] Well, that answers that question.
[1:59:03] Um yeah, in definitions there's
[1:59:05] definitely some things that need to be
[1:59:07] clarified like interferes with um in
[1:59:11] number one um what would be considered
[1:59:14] interference
[1:59:16] uh by by a neighboring property uh to
[1:59:20] somebody reasonably reasonable use and
[1:59:23] enjoyment of their property. That would
[1:59:25] have to be specifically you'd have to
[1:59:27] know what that interference if what
[1:59:29] rises to interference.
[1:59:32] I' I'd have to know what that is.
[1:59:36] Um I mean it creates unsightly that's
[1:59:38] obvious.
[1:59:41] The other one violates I mean the other
[1:59:43] the rest of it is pretty obvious but
[1:59:45] interfering
[1:59:47] that's big. You know what does that
[1:59:49] mean? You know I mean is it so bad that
[1:59:51] it's blocking the road and I can't get
[1:59:52] to my property? Well, I think if someone
[1:59:55] wanted to submit a complaint about a
[1:59:57] property and that was the only section
[1:59:59] of this ordinance that applied to their
[2:00:01] situation, um I guess I can think of
[2:00:04] like rats might be a a situation like
[2:00:08] that and maybe the health ordin the
[2:00:10] health order is a better path, but um
[2:00:13] maybe not if they if they you know can't
[2:00:16] maintain their you know residential use
[2:00:18] of the property. So if they can't have
[2:00:20] like a garden or something like that
[2:00:22] because of the number of raccoons and
[2:00:25] you know different things that are there
[2:00:27] that might be interfering with their you
[2:00:29] know residential use of their property.
[2:00:32] Um and similarly a business might have complaints where their you know
[2:00:37] commercial use of their property is
[2:00:39] impacted by a neighbor's um you know
[2:00:43] their their condition. That would be one
[2:00:45] that I would see comes under one. The
[2:00:48] other the other couple that you
[2:00:50] mentioned are three and four. They're
[2:00:51] already there. But but that's
[2:00:55] what means.
[2:01:00] Yeah.
[2:01:02] Um if we can get a copy of that so we
[2:01:05] can look at it. Yeah. That'd be great.
[2:01:07] Yeah. So might have more questions that
[2:01:09] we might want to have clarified.
[2:01:14] Yep. Definitely. it. The the other thing
[2:01:17] I am concerned about is and this is for
[2:01:20] the for the town side of it is if we
[2:01:23] were to say, "Okay, you violated we're
[2:01:26] coming on your property and we're fixing
[2:01:28] your property." That's a scary thing. I
[2:01:31] think I mean
[2:01:34] you summed it up as saying that well
[2:01:36] maybe you see that as being a town maybe
[2:01:39] putting a dumpster there. Well, you
[2:01:40] still kind of got to get permission to
[2:01:42] do that, don't you?
[2:01:44] that that's what this ordinance does.
[2:01:46] That's that's kind of the the idea is as
[2:01:49] long as they've met the criteria in the
[2:01:51] ordinance and they haven't they've been
[2:01:53] given a due it does say after due
[2:01:55] notice. Um but they've been given you
[2:01:57] know the due process that's laid out in
[2:01:59] the ordinance and they've failed to
[2:02:01] comply then the next step is you know
[2:02:04] real action because that's kind of where
[2:02:06] our current regulations
[2:02:08] fade out is you can say all kinds of
[2:02:11] things but you can't you can't do
[2:02:12] anything about it. So that I think
[2:02:14] that's the that's ultimately the goal of
[2:02:16] this ordinance, which is why I'm kind of
[2:02:18] trying to feel out how the board feels
[2:02:20] about addressing the the issue. Um, but
[2:02:25] if it is something that that the board
[2:02:27] wants to pursue, um, I think that's kind
[2:02:30] of the idea.
[2:02:33] I I get that and I agree with you. I'm
[2:02:35] just a little concerned about showing up
[2:02:37] on somebody's property. Even even with
[2:02:40] all of this,
[2:02:42] you know, that could be quite the
[2:02:44] confrontation. Even even going through
[2:02:46] the process, it could still be a pretty
[2:02:50] busy confrontation. I I would assume the
[2:02:52] sheriffs would be there
[2:02:55] and stuff and you could you could be
[2:02:59] looking down the peril and come. You
[2:03:01] never know.
[2:03:07] fireworks shop. It's just a little bit
[2:03:09] of scary situation. I think that's all.
[2:03:12] I mean, I know we need the teeth. I that
[2:03:14] I understand.
[2:03:17] So, I think the next step was would be
[2:03:20] to get it in writing, right? One and and
[2:03:23] see what the attorney also says.
[2:03:26] If we can get if we can get a copy of
[2:03:28] that and then uh after we hear back from
[2:03:31] the attorney, we'd like to uh go over it
[2:03:33] again so we can get our two cents worth.
[2:03:37] I I got one little more two cents to go
[2:03:39] with that. Ryan, um should we ask the
[2:03:42] DRB uh to also maybe give some feedback
[2:03:46] on what they think the planning
[2:03:48] commission should do with the zoning
[2:03:50] bylaws to work with this?
[2:03:54] I just one one question on Well, I got a
[2:03:56] question on the floor first. I'm sorry.
[2:03:59] Go ahead.
[2:04:01] I guess that question is to Ryan. Okay.
[2:04:05] Should the DRB advise on this ordinance?
[2:04:08] Not not on this ordinance, but uh should
[2:04:10] the DRB uh u review the ordinance and
[2:04:13] review um the zoning bylaws that that
[2:04:16] are referenced because there are some
[2:04:18] references to zoning bylaws in the
[2:04:19] ordinance, right? Is there something
[2:04:21] more that could be done that that would
[2:04:23] be that they might
[2:04:26] uh request the planning commission look
[2:04:27] into um
[2:04:30] dealing with within the zoning bylaws?
[2:04:34] Might be more of a planning commission
[2:04:35] question. The DRB basically
[2:04:39] operates the what the with what the
[2:04:41] bylaws are. I don't think they've dealt
[2:04:43] with many um of these types of issues.
[2:04:47] There was that one that I mentioned
[2:04:49] maybe five or six years ago um that that
[2:04:52] was an appeal from a notice of violation
[2:04:55] was issued and the the uh the appel I
[2:04:59] guess the violator appealed. Um but
[2:05:02] other than that I don't know if they've you know that's really in their
[2:05:06] wheelhouse. It's kind of a legislative
[2:05:08] question. Should something be done in
[2:05:09] the bylaws to address it? I I understand
[2:05:12] that and being being one of the planning
[2:05:14] commissioners, I was kind of trying to
[2:05:16] get some help from somebody else while
[2:05:18] we're tying up to the town plan.
[2:05:21] Maybe I just don't think it's their
[2:05:23] role. No, they could make suggestions to
[2:05:26] us, I guess, is what I was looking for.
[2:05:28] They could suggestions that that kind of
[2:05:31] thing that would help us because like I
[2:05:33] said, we're we're we're we don't have a
[2:05:36] town plan right now. We're kind of
[2:05:37] focused on getting through that and we
[2:05:39] still got a ways to go. you know that
[2:05:41] you've done a lot of great work there
[2:05:43] and anyway
[2:05:47] I just want to add that uh well I agree
[2:05:49] with most of that especially when it
[2:05:51] comes to the health or junk and this and
[2:05:53] that well I would also add that if if
[2:05:56] someone's property so bad that it
[2:05:58] lowered the value of your place when you
[2:06:00] try to sell it but adding to that I
[2:06:02] would say having owned several acres in
[2:06:05] the Midwest in a HOA I would also warn
[2:06:08] against the town starting to operate
[2:06:10] like an HOA and like who's policing us,
[2:06:13] what what is decided, who's deciding
[2:06:15] what is unkempt, you know? I mean, uh,
[2:06:18] you know, we we dealt with that there
[2:06:20] where a guy did operate on a small had a
[2:06:24] small body shop and he had a couple two
[2:06:26] or three pads out back. Well, the HOA
[2:06:28] said, "No, you can't do that." Um, they
[2:06:30] can do that. It's, you know, these might
[2:06:33] be pass,
[2:06:34] you know, I I would warn a belt that,
[2:06:37] you know, you know, it's you're
[2:06:40] threading on thin ground.
[2:06:43] There there might be a need to identify
[2:06:46] a level. Yeah. Like if you're dealing
[2:06:49] with a junkyard or health hazard. Yeah.
[2:06:52] Um, you know, just what that is, right?
[2:06:54] Need to be more clearly defined. I mean
[2:06:57] that that happened years ago and with a body shop too. He had cars and he moved out of state went down south
[2:07:06] because he said I couldn't operate
[2:07:09] in this town. So
[2:07:21] Janette Rogue discussion it's a good job
[2:07:23] Ryan. Thank you Ryan. Thank you. All
[2:07:26] right. Thank you. Good night. Good
[2:07:29] night.
[2:07:32] This is a divorce
[2:07:34] road. Yeah, I brought this up. The folks
[2:07:36] on Janess Road have trouble getting
[2:07:39] packages because ever since the name was
[2:07:41] changed from Schoolhouse Road to Genesis
[2:07:44] Road
[2:07:45] GPS and nobody can get deliver
[2:07:54] um and and another resident on the road
[2:07:57] had told me that and confirmed it. It's a very similar situation to Stokes
[2:08:01] Road where the GPS
[2:08:04] sent people in the wrong place and and
[2:08:06] no nothing could change it. So the folks
[2:08:09] on that road came to the board and asked
[2:08:11] the board to change the name. I don't
[2:08:14] think that solved the problem. So I was
[2:08:16] just wondering would the board be
[2:08:17] considering would it consider changing
[2:08:20] the name of Jennis Road back to
[2:08:22] Schoolhouse Road so people can get their
[2:08:23] deliveries?
[2:08:25] I know it was your mom that asked to
[2:08:27] have it changed to Janess Road and I
[2:08:29] don't remember the reason why but it was
[2:08:31] originally intended to be Janess Road.
[2:08:34] Pardon? Was your mom who had asked to
[2:08:36] have it changed? I I think I don't
[2:08:40] recall that she was the person who asked
[2:08:41] to have it changed, but I think it was
[2:08:43] changed because Weathersfield has two
[2:08:45] schoolhouse roads and it was changed at
[2:08:47] the at the time of 911. Maybe she was
[2:08:50] the one that said that their name was
[2:08:52] originally intended to be the first as
[2:08:55] to change it. They were the first
[2:08:56] residents of that room. But it is true.
[2:08:59] GPS can't find can't find it. UPS can't
[2:09:03] find it and the ambulance can't find it.
[2:09:06] Um FedEx can't find it. UPS they can't
[2:09:10] nobody can find it. So what you have to
[2:09:11] do is give them um the Windsor zip code
[2:09:15] because if you get your mail delivered
[2:09:17] at home
[2:09:20] Yeah. But the but the house numbers
[2:09:23] don't make any sense. My my parents
[2:09:25] house is either 54 or 186 depending on
[2:09:29] what you're looking at because I think
[2:09:31] we figured out that when the name was
[2:09:35] changed for 911, the numbers weren't
[2:09:38] changed but the numbers don't make
[2:09:39] sense. Anyway, no one can find no one
[2:09:42] can apologize, right? So, I was asked if
[2:09:46] I would do something about it and I
[2:09:48] thought I'd bring it up to the board.
[2:09:50] Okay, good to know. Um, I know we don't
[2:09:53] have anything to do with 911 numbering,
[2:09:55] but we do we can have a say in the name
[2:09:58] of the road. It used to be called
[2:10:00] Schoolhouse Road. You could just put
[2:10:01] back to school. Well, but if you have
[2:10:04] another road that's schoolhouse road,
[2:10:06] like Patty said, schoolhouse road isn't
[2:10:10] um
[2:10:12] schoolhouse road. Yes, but it's got
[2:10:17] school. You have you have as road, you
[2:10:19] have grout road. Yeah, you have to
[2:10:20] schoolhouse road against schoolhouse
[2:10:22] road. Okay, it's not the same. All
[2:10:23] right, solves that question. But going up the hill is schoolhouse road
[2:10:28] and it used to be all the way but but
[2:10:31] now it's up the road is schoolhouse road
[2:10:33] and
[2:10:34] that leg is Jenna road. Um but it always
[2:10:37] was called school and Springfield's got
[2:10:39] that above the uh fire station. You when
[2:10:42] you head up the hill and you turn out
[2:10:44] it's it's like one and then and then
[2:10:47] when you turn right it turns to Wilson.
[2:10:49] But you don't see. Everybody says they
[2:10:51] live on Wilson, which is you got like
[2:10:53] this little section that to get there.
[2:10:55] No, you can never find it. There is a
[2:10:57] little sign that says Jennis Road. But
[2:10:59] if you're somewhere else and you're
[2:11:00] trying to find it, it doesn't show up
[2:11:02] correctly on GPS. But and the ambulance
[2:11:04] has even gone to the wrong house because
[2:11:06] of the numbering system being screwed
[2:11:08] up. But is there not a way to update the
[2:11:12] GPS? I mean, didn't Spring was chain a
[2:11:15] whole bunch of I mean, road names. We
[2:11:17] had the same problem. Carly road. I
[2:11:19] think that was another one that was a
[2:11:20] problem. It's just impossible. What do
[2:11:23] we do with that? I mean, I don't think
[2:11:24] it is.
[2:11:26] Google and GPS and all those mapping. I
[2:11:30] won't make a joke about any golfs, but
[2:11:32] um uh it seems like there probably is a
[2:11:36] process for registered road. I mean,
[2:11:39] we're not the only town that has changed
[2:11:40] names. Your solution might be the
[2:11:43] easiest. Our solution. I have no idea.
[2:11:45] According to the books on George there
[2:11:48] was but somehow or other people if you if
[2:11:53] you type in Jennis road 05030
[2:11:57] you won't get you have to type it in as
[2:11:59] 05089 because it's registered in Windsor
[2:12:02] because the mail comes through right
[2:12:05] just like you have to type in
[2:12:07] Springfield to get to it even though
[2:12:09] it's in field we have five
[2:12:13] yeah and some wins there are some people
[2:12:15] live in Weathersfield and Springfield.
[2:12:18] So, this is a federal government issue.
[2:12:20] I have a Windsor adder.
[2:12:23] You want to say you change the name of
[2:12:25] the back schoolhouse? Isn't it still
[2:12:27] going to have the same zip code? It will
[2:12:29] still come from Windsor. That's why I
[2:12:31] want I want to research it. Um, I'll
[2:12:33] give you guys an update at the next
[2:12:34] meeting. Thank you. You're welcome. I
[2:12:36] can say I brought it out.
[2:12:38] I fulfilled the promise. Thank you so
[2:12:41] much.
[2:12:42] agenda. Did you say you wanted to add to
[2:12:44] this, RA?
[2:12:46] Um, under future agenda items. That's
[2:12:48] where we are. Yes. Okay. Um,
[2:12:52] uh, questions have been raised lately
[2:12:54] about whatever became the wastewater
[2:12:56] feasibility study for Perkinsville. So,
[2:13:00] we haven't heard anything from that from
[2:13:02] a long, long time.
[2:13:04] Um, and in a conversation the other day,
[2:13:08] I don't even remember who I was talking
[2:13:11] with now. Uh, but we were talking about
[2:13:15] how things get communicated in this town
[2:13:17] and how hard it is to communicate stuff
[2:13:19] in this town. And the question arose,
[2:13:22] would it be possible to have I guess
[2:13:25] they're called sandwich boards?
[2:13:29] Yeah, I know. You know, we have one here
[2:13:31] about the dogs and the taxes in front of
[2:13:33] the town hall, but could would it be
[2:13:35] possible to have sandwich boards for
[2:13:38] important meetings or hearings or things
[2:13:41] like that? That could be for example at Downers at where Weathersfield Center
[2:13:48] Road comes into 131 where
[2:13:52] you know in the scutney at the dump of
[2:13:55] the sorry transfer station
[2:14:00] you know a couple of key places where
[2:14:03] people tend to go
[2:14:07] um just so there's more visibility and
[2:14:10] you know because not everybody reads
[2:14:11] front porch forum. Not everybody is on
[2:14:15] Facebook. Um we I think we just need to
[2:14:18] find as many ways to communicate and get
[2:14:20] the word out as possible. When I was at
[2:14:23] town manager day, actually that and
[2:14:26] direct mail were were deemed like the
[2:14:28] most effective at getting the word out.
[2:14:30] Yeah. Yeah. The question the question
[2:14:33] become on the sandwich boards becomes
[2:14:35] who's who's going to main table. Yeah.
[2:14:37] Right. Right.
[2:14:40] growing digital signs.
[2:14:46] The only one of those town right up that
[2:14:48] state right away was the general
[2:14:50] everything else state.
[2:14:52] you come to us. And the other question
[2:14:55] was whether in in at the Perkinsville
[2:14:58] post office there is a bulletin board
[2:15:01] where we post they're both public
[2:15:04] there's a public notice board and
[2:15:05] there's a town notice board but they're
[2:15:08] at the if you come in the front door and
[2:15:11] most people in fact park around the back
[2:15:13] side of the building never see they
[2:15:15] never see it are totally unaware that
[2:15:18] there's a sideboard. So I just and I
[2:15:21] don't have no idea what it's like over
[2:15:23] here in at the Escotty post office. What
[2:15:26] I just heard is lock the back door.
[2:15:29] Yeah, we we cannot post
[2:15:33] we can't post at the post offices. They
[2:15:36] do that.
[2:15:39] Yeah. The only reason we're allowed to
[2:15:41] in Burtonville is because that area is
[2:15:44] actually not controlled by the post
[2:15:46] office. So in in li of uh posting at the
[2:15:50] Scotty post office now we're posting at
[2:15:52] the library.
[2:15:54] Oh interesting at Martin Hall and then
[2:15:56] at the middle post office building.
[2:16:00] Yeah. Isn't it interesting that we pay
[2:16:02] for all of that and we can't use it? I
[2:16:05] mean if it's a government building it's
[2:16:06] taxpayers dollars. Yeah. Which makes
[2:16:09] that us. Yeah. I I do pay my taxes. We
[2:16:12] went back and forth. I think you were on
[2:16:15] the board actually. I think both Kelly
[2:16:17] and Mike were on the board at that time.
[2:16:18] Yeah. And I Yeah, I remember. Yeah.
[2:16:22] Legal. Well, I've had people gotten
[2:16:24] fired from the postal department for
[2:16:27] putting stuff up that they're not
[2:16:28] supposed
[2:16:33] to say. That's a good thing.
[2:16:36] So, I know a lot about So, we're not
[2:16:38] supposed to mention that politics might
[2:16:40] have worked its way into that. So, no.
[2:16:43] I'm sure it did.
[2:16:48] Yeah, a second. Um, also for future
[2:16:52] agenda items. Sorry, we have um some
[2:16:58] I put out something is why I said that.
[2:17:01] Job performance for Brandon. Oh, yes.
[2:17:04] There's some paperwork here. No, you
[2:17:07] don't get one.
[2:17:11] Yes. So, I didn't know. You guys might
[2:17:14] want to look at these. These are
[2:17:15] something that Brandon printed. Also,
[2:17:18] this is what we use for all kinds. Yes,
[2:17:20] we do it. Should I do a good job? Yes or
[2:17:23] no?
[2:17:27] When I was looking at it this weekend, I
[2:17:30] um
[2:17:32] I I want to know I got questions I want
[2:17:36] to have an answer. So, I don't know if
[2:17:38] anyone else has questions like um
[2:17:44] I want to know what are your goal or
[2:17:47] goals for the coming year and how do you
[2:17:49] plan to achieve them? Um
[2:17:52] what support or resources do you need to
[2:17:54] enhance your performance?
[2:17:57] I know that he's got a lot on his plate
[2:17:59] of stuff that
[2:18:02] is consuming his time and upstairs in
[2:18:05] the office that shouldn't be. So, I I
[2:18:08] just think that there's a lot of
[2:18:10] questions that maybe someone may have
[2:18:12] that they might want to ask him during
[2:18:14] this performance. I don't know if they
[2:18:16] want to ask him prior to the meeting so
[2:18:20] that he can have time to get answers.
[2:18:25] Do questions of what kind of support do
[2:18:28] you need actually fit into an evaluation
[2:18:31] of a person's
[2:18:33] probably not performance? That that's
[2:18:36] the the first question. What was the
[2:18:37] verdict and that one I didn't seem so
[2:18:39] bad. What is your goal or goals for for
[2:18:41] the coming year and how do you plan to
[2:18:43] achieve that? Well, it does have other
[2:18:45] goals in here.
[2:18:47] This factor will measure other areas
[2:18:50] that are applicable to the employee
[2:18:51] performance.
[2:18:52] The only thing I worry about, Kelly, is
[2:18:54] you give them too much open-ended. It's
[2:18:55] going to be 12 pages.
[2:19:00] Do we have Do we actually have a copy of
[2:19:03] your job description? Is there a job
[2:19:05] description? It's a It's a contract. I
[2:19:07] can get a copy of the contract. Yeah.
[2:19:10] Yeah. That should be that should
[2:19:11] be with this. I actually I do agree that
[2:19:14] I think it this is just this is just a
[2:19:17] check mark thingy. This is not even
[2:19:19] asking questions. Well, it is in the
[2:19:20] back, but I do I do agree asking what
[2:19:23] kind of supports to that you can be more
[2:19:25] successful in. I mean, it's something in
[2:19:27] my role like that is something I ask
[2:19:31] folks when we do evaluations.
[2:19:35] Kelly, so the way that Can I have that
[2:19:38] puppy? Yeah. So, this is the one that we
[2:19:40] use for all time employees and you
[2:19:42] actually
[2:19:44] you you check it and then you write
[2:19:46] underneath it as well. Oh, okay. So what
[2:19:49] we typically do is we we check one of
[2:19:52] these four boxes and then we write a a
[2:19:54] paragraph
[2:19:56] that correlates to their to their job.
[2:19:58] So
[2:20:02] one would not know that by leaving it
[2:20:05] provided the comment. I have two members
[2:20:07] asked for you to tell us what you need.
[2:20:10] So I'm comfortable you writing it down
[2:20:12] and giving it to us.
[2:20:16] How are you?
[2:20:21] manifesto.
[2:20:24] So, if you guys want to just look
[2:20:25] through this for our next meeting and
[2:20:28] then we can discuss it then if that's
[2:20:29] all right with you guys. You don't want
[2:20:31] us to do it and hand it in. I don't Can
[2:20:36] you Yeah, you can hand it in and and
[2:20:38] then uh you kind of go over it and then
[2:20:40] call a meeting for us to come together
[2:20:42] and uh figure out what we're going to do
[2:20:44] with it before you sit down with him and
[2:20:46] tell him what we said. Okay.
[2:20:49] With the red season. I'm I'm pretty
[2:20:52] blunt so he knows.
[2:20:56] This is just something that you uh that
[2:20:58] we signed that needs to go in your
[2:20:59] folder. Oh, did we advertise it? because
[2:21:02] I was we should do
[2:21:06] the mud.
[2:21:08] It just needs to go in your folder.
[2:21:15] So, is that what you guys want to do?
[2:21:16] Fill this out and hand it in? No. No,
[2:21:19] not yet. No, not tonight.
[2:21:23] I want to see the contract. I copy
[2:21:30] that. I have it.
[2:21:34] Okay. Appointments. There's no
[2:21:36] appointments.
[2:21:38] Any other business? Well, do we have did
[2:21:40] we have one thing?
[2:21:43] [Music]
[2:21:45] That was just underneath when your file
[2:21:48] goes. Oh. Oh.
[2:21:52] Got it.
[2:21:55] Any other business?
[2:21:57] Nobody on the board? No other business.
[2:22:00] approve the warrant.
[2:22:05] Thank you, R.
[2:22:07] I'll see you tomorrow.
[2:22:10] Make a motion to approve the warrant.
[2:22:12] General fund 15,000 uh payroll
[2:22:15] $15,431.92.
[2:22:18] Operating expenses $78,23452.
[2:22:20] [Music]
[2:22:23] Highway payroll $10,13.93.
[2:22:28] Operating expenses $4,138.74.
[2:22:32] Solid waste payroll $2,191.34.
[2:22:35] [Music]
[2:22:38] Operating expenses $4,7159.
[2:22:42] Library payroll $2,399.74.
[2:22:45] [Music]
[2:22:49] LB project $64.80.
[2:22:53] What is that? Um
[2:22:58] second that till after grand totals
[2:23:00] payroll $30,126.93
[2:23:04] operating expenses $86,5965
[2:23:06] [Music]
[2:23:11] discussion little scutney bridge project
[2:23:17] we couldn't fit the whole thing there so
[2:23:19] we had to
[2:23:21] what was this those missing bolts or
[2:23:23] something was for advertising
[2:23:27] or something.
[2:23:32] No, there's some truth to what I said.
[2:23:37] I'm sure it was taken care of.
[2:23:43] I have no questions on
[2:23:46] I just got I just got one quick
[2:23:48] question. What is the credential
[2:23:50] retirement? Who gets that?
[2:23:54] It's on page
[2:23:56] five of five of the payroll for the
[2:23:58] general fund.
[2:24:10] $215
[2:24:12] for two people
[2:24:15] or twice
[2:24:18] or the same person twice. Yeah, that's
[2:24:19] right. Oh, it is two different pay
[2:24:21] dates.
[2:24:25] I'm pretty sure I I know this. Do you
[2:24:27] mind if I still giving you the answer at
[2:24:30] the next meeting? Yeah. Okay. I'm just
[2:24:31] curious. I just don't remember seeing
[2:24:33] that before.
[2:24:36] That's all I had for questions.
[2:24:39] Any other questions?
[2:24:42] All those in favor? Any extensions?
[2:24:48] Carries.
[2:24:49] Motion to adjurnn. So move
[2:24:52] second second. Journ 8:56 p.m. in favor.
[2:25:03] [Music]
[2:25:14] Heat. Heat.
[2:25:19] [Music]