[0:05] Excellent. Boarding's going. That was my next question.
[0:11] Will we all please rise for a pledge
[0:13] of allegiance and a moment of silence for
[0:14] our military personnel. Thanks for coming. This is
[0:42] the first public meeting following the termination of
[0:44] the sewer contract by the Board of Supervisors.
[0:48] The goal for this meeting is to hear
[0:50] from our sewer contractor, sewer engineer, who is
[0:54] here to talk to us about the studies
[0:56] that we are undertaking, all of us together.
[0:59] A study about tapping fees, capital reserve and
[1:02] a rate study. Are hoping that everybody here
[1:06] will, first of all, thank you for coming.
[1:07] We're hoping everybody will have a comment, question,
[1:11] would like to weigh in at some point.
[1:12] That's the point of this meeting is to
[1:14] involve as much of the public as we
[1:15] can. We are gonna put a time limit
[1:17] on the comments of three minutes. That doesn't
[1:20] mean that you can't raise a second unrelated
[1:22] comment afterwards. We just wanna make sure that
[1:24] it's not soliloquy time as opposed to comment
[1:27] time. So I will with that turn it
[1:30] over to our Township Manager, Shanna Lodge. Absolutely.
[1:34] So and with that, I'm going to introduce
[1:36] two gentlemen from our sewer engineer, which is
[1:40] Carroll Engineering. We have Bill Malin and Mark
[1:42] Yoder here with us this afternoon, evening, whatever
[1:45] it might be. And as is noted on
[1:48] the agenda, they're here to give a presentation
[1:51] regarding the process and scope of the upcoming
[1:53] sewer studies, which the chair just mentioned. We
[1:58] can get more into the, they'll get into
[2:02] the nitty gritty of the scope and how
[2:04] particular studies are conducted and what the purpose
[2:09] of them be. The overall goals of doing
[2:12] these studies, as the board has mentioned in
[2:13] past meetings, are really to move toward ensuring
[2:18] that the sewer system, now that the sewer
[2:21] system is not going to be sold, will
[2:22] be properly and sustainably funded moving forward to
[2:29] make some corrections or moves or etcetera. Following
[2:43] the sale, which obviously, as the chair mentioned,
[2:50] did not proceed. And to move toward more
[2:52] proactive repairs rather than the reactive repairs, which
[2:56] I know people have mentioned in previous meetings.
[2:58] That's certainly another goal, particularly when it comes
[3:00] to capital funding. And finally, to hear from
[3:04] you. Most of you, I imagine in this
[3:07] room are sewer customers. Maybe some of you
[3:09] are interested Township residents. You're certainly welcome here
[3:11] as well. But many of you are probably
[3:14] customers of the sewer system. So this meeting
[3:17] also serves to better understand your concerns and
[3:19] for you to provide some input following the
[3:22] presentation by the engineers of what you'd like
[3:26] to ensure is considered in their study. So
[3:30] with that, I think I'll turn it over
[3:31] to Bill and Mark to speak about the
[3:35] various studies that they'll be undertaking soon. Okay,
[3:40] thank you. I'm Bill Mallon with Carroll Engineering.
[3:43] We're the Township Wastewater Engineer, And we are
[3:48] undertaking as the chair mentioned three studies, three
[3:52] financial studies for the township or the sewer
[3:54] system. So there's tapping fees, capital reserve study,
[3:58] and the rate study. I'll touch a little
[4:01] bit on each one of those, what the
[4:03] scope is, the process kind of reverse from
[4:06] process and scope, and the end goal for
[4:09] everything. So, we'll start with the tapping fees.
[4:13] The tapping fee is a fee township charges
[4:16] to any new connection in the township, it
[4:19] covers the township's costs, monies that they spent
[4:22] to build the system. So it covers capacity
[4:25] Valley Forge Sewer Authority, capacity that was purchased
[4:28] in the Valley Creek Trunk Sewer that conveys
[4:30] everything from the township to Valley Forge Sewer
[4:32] Authority, and all the pipes that the township
[4:35] themselves paid for in the sewer system. Doesn't
[4:38] include anything that a developer built and dedicated
[4:41] to the township, doesn't include any grant money
[4:44] that the township received for construction, so it's
[4:48] basically outlays by the township. And the idea
[4:52] is you build the system, so you have
[4:54] to front load it with funding in order
[4:57] to have a system for people to connect
[4:58] to, and then over time people connect and
[5:01] pay that money back, kind of like a
[5:03] mortgage in a sense. It's only for system
[5:10] capacity, so it doesn't include any repairs, pipe
[5:16] replacements that have been done or will be
[5:19] done over time, unless it's a situation where
[5:21] we had an eight inch sewer and then
[5:23] we determined that we needed a larger pipe,
[5:25] so we put a 12 inches sewer when
[5:26] we placed it, you can include the extra
[5:29] cost for that larger sewer that added capacity.
[5:34] The last time the tapping fee was calculated
[5:36] in the township is 2,007, I believe. The
[5:41] capital reserve study is a study that the
[5:43] township's gonna undertake to establish annual funding to
[5:48] maintain the system. So they want to over
[5:52] time be able to accumulate a reserve fund
[5:55] to cover repairs of the sewers, repairs to
[5:59] the pump stations, repairs if Valley Forge Sewer
[6:03] Authority needs to do repairs at the treatment
[6:05] plant, they have funds to account for that.
[6:08] What we do is basically do replacement costs
[6:12] of all the equipment and pipes in the
[6:16] ground, what the life cycle is. So if
[6:19] a pump has a life cycle of twenty
[6:21] years, it needs to be replaced every twenty
[6:23] years, we build that into every year, we're
[6:25] putting an incremental amount into a fund. So,
[6:28] after twenty years, the money is there in
[6:30] order for the township to replace it. And
[6:33] that's a component that's gonna go into the
[6:35] rate study, so that in addition to just
[6:38] paying the bills, the township's establishing a fund
[6:40] so they can proactively maintain and repair the
[6:43] system, as Shana said, instead of reacting to
[6:48] a failure that costs a lot more money
[6:50] to take care of. And the rates, so
[6:54] the rates is really the heart of it.
[6:56] Obviously for some customers, it's what you pay
[6:59] for the service that you receive. And as
[7:03] I mentioned, includes the capital reserve costs in
[7:08] there. The rate study structure was last revised
[7:11] in 2013. I think there've been maybe some
[7:14] increases since then. We're going to kind of
[7:19] get in the process of this. We're going
[7:21] to look at the entire rate structure and
[7:24] we wanna make sure that it's fair and
[7:26] accurate. So what that basically means is that
[7:31] for customers in the same group, residential customers,
[7:34] you're being charged equally for that service. And
[7:39] that for a user who might have a
[7:41] bigger burden on the system, not to pick
[7:43] on the hospital, for instance, but it's probably
[7:45] the largest customer in the system. If they
[7:47] have a larger burden on the system, they
[7:50] arguably should be charged more than the residential
[7:53] customer. So, we wanna examine it, make sure
[7:57] it's fair, and then make sure then that
[7:59] the rates that are set are covering the
[8:01] authority of the townships costs, including as I
[8:04] mentioned, the capital reserve. And I think just
[8:07] to kind of sum up, as Shana said,
[8:09] the goal is to make sure that the
[8:12] township's sewer funding is sustainable, so that they
[8:20] can provide a good service to you, both
[8:22] in terms of being able to flush the
[8:24] toilet and know that it's gonna go and
[8:26] be taken care of, as well as address
[8:28] your concerns, let me contact the township when
[8:30] Bill Hagen and his guys have to go
[8:32] out and do something, and then when we
[8:34] investigate the system and find out that things
[8:36] need be repaired, that the funding is stable,
[8:41] so the detachment can go do those repairs
[8:43] when we need to depend on and not
[8:45] worry about where the funding's gonna come from.
[8:46] So, I think that covers the studies that
[8:51] we're gonna undertake. Does the board have any
[8:56] questions before we go? I'll touch base on
[9:00] the stand. On the, comment about the equity
[9:05] of residential versus large users. At one time
[9:11] we had a rate structure where residential customers
[9:15] were charged a rate and then customers that
[9:19] were defined as businesses were charged a different
[9:23] rate, and the law allows to create classes
[9:26] of customers of that sort. What we found
[9:30] at the time, now this was some years
[9:32] ago, was that because it was modeled on
[9:36] the way the water supplier, Aqua, structured their
[9:44] rates, there was actually, the more you use
[9:48] beyond a certain point, you actually end up
[9:50] paying less on per gallon basis, high volume
[9:55] was rewarded. We changed the rate structure at
[9:59] that point to create a rate where everybody,
[10:04] whether residential or business, was paying the same
[10:10] per gallon rate so that if you were
[10:14] a single person, perhaps elderly, who was taking
[10:20] not five showers a day, you know, the
[10:24] volumetric use was much, much lower than the
[10:28] hospital, I beg your pardon, a large user
[10:30] of the north end of the township, who
[10:32] was doing 2,000,000 gallons a month versus someone
[10:36] who was doing 100, that the 2,000,000 gallon
[10:40] a month customer was ultimately not effectively paying
[10:44] less. So we have a single rate. So
[10:48] if you're using a gallon a month, you're
[10:49] paying a number, X, and I don't know
[10:54] what that number is off the top of
[10:55] my head, but you're paying X per gallon.
[10:58] If you use one gallon, you're paying X.
[11:00] If you're using 2,000,000, you're paying 2,000,000 X.
[11:04] So that the larger your use, greater dollars
[11:10] are being paid. At the time, we felt
[11:14] that was more equitable than essentially giving a
[11:18] discount to the larger users. I think what
[11:23] we're hoping for in the study that you're
[11:27] going to do is to come out and
[11:29] say, is that the right way? Is there
[11:31] a better way? Is there something more equitable
[11:34] in terms of structuring the rates? And that's
[11:41] when you say, what are we doing today
[11:43] versus what we might be doing in the
[11:45] future, My view is, and I'm obviously not
[11:48] speaking with the other members, my view is
[11:51] we wipe the slate for what you're doing,
[11:53] say, what's the right thing to do going
[11:56] forward? What's the number that has to be
[11:59] achieved to meet the financial goals, but also
[12:04] what's the right and fair thing to do?
[12:06] And as I said, the change that we
[12:07] made a few years back was we had
[12:10] a number of people who came in and
[12:11] said, I'm on fixed income, I'm an elderly
[12:14] single person, I am using very, very little
[12:19] water, but I'm being charged my sewer usage
[12:23] based on my water consumption, which is the
[12:25] way it's structured. And I find it unfair
[12:29] that I'm paying more on a per gallon
[12:31] rate than possible. So I beg your pardon,
[12:35] a large user of the North Of township.
[12:38] As an aside, there are other large users
[12:40] of the North End of the township. There's
[12:43] a business up there, for example, that washes
[12:46] tablecloths, does linens for restaurants. So it's essentially
[12:49] a gargantuan laundry operation, very large consumer border.
[12:53] Now, obviously the hospital is a major user,
[12:55] but there are a number of places up
[12:57] there. Now the car wash is closed. And
[13:00] I don't, it doesn't look to me as
[13:02] though anybody's gonna buy that at the time.
[13:05] Again, they were a huge user of war.
[13:08] So those structures, they will have to be
[13:11] in Northern. I don't mean to be dismerging
[13:14] our good friends. But that was where we
[13:19] came to, was the objection or the concern
[13:22] of certain customers who were saying, I'm paying
[13:25] a rate greater on a per gallon basis
[13:28] than the hospital. That's what we're going to
[13:29] do, a flat rate. That's more, I think
[13:34] that's sort of intended as information for people
[13:37] to understand. But as I said, my view
[13:40] is we should wipe the slate, say, not
[13:42] worry about what we're doing, what we used
[13:44] to do, what's the right thing going forward
[13:46] in setting appropriate rates. Well, and I think
[13:49] that's what we've been testing from Shanna is
[13:53] what is the best master app for all
[13:55] of this? And I'll just comment on the
[13:58] fact that, so in 2013, so I've been
[14:02] doing rate studies for about twenty years and
[14:06] that comment that you made about basically paying
[14:10] your fair share, what you're actually using comes
[14:13] up all the time. Those rates are generally
[14:17] usage rates. There are some municipalities where there's
[14:22] really low costs that just have an ED
[14:24] rate because it's just so cheap, nobody really
[14:26] cares, much less than what the average rate
[14:30] for the township is. So yes, we're gonna,
[14:35] and we'll come up with some, hopefully several
[14:39] options how to do this that have pluses
[14:44] and minuses. And then you folks, you three
[14:47] will make a final determination of what you
[14:49] think is the best for your customers. You're
[14:53] actually segueing perfectly into what I was gonna
[14:56] ask, which is, are we gonna be evaluating
[14:58] the based analysis or based system as opposed
[15:01] to a usage based system? Yes, we will.
[15:05] Quite honestly, I didn't think I was gonna
[15:08] give that a lot of attention. Number one,
[15:13] at least from the sewer work that we've
[15:15] been doing in the last ten years and
[15:16] reports that we do, I think there's a
[15:18] question of getting a handle on every single
[15:20] EDU in the township and how many are
[15:23] allocated for especially large users on the north
[15:26] end of the township versus single family home.
[15:30] But we definitely will look at that and
[15:32] if we can make it through with a
[15:34] recommendation, we'll come up with that. And if
[15:36] we kind of reach a dead end and
[15:37] say, look, we can't really guarantee because we
[15:40] don't have all the information that this is
[15:41] going to be adequate for everybody. Could you
[15:43] just from home was jargon oftentimes gets flown
[15:47] in here. I know exactly what an EDU
[15:49] is for you for the audience. So, I
[15:51] mean, EDU is basically just a measurement. It's
[15:56] called equivalent dwelling unit. Think of it as
[15:58] just one single family home. So a single
[16:01] family home, I assume all of you folks
[16:03] live in, is considered one EV. Multifamily apartments
[16:09] or condos, if it's a single connection, they'll
[16:13] have multiple use assigned to them. Very large
[16:16] customers, like a hospital, have extreme number of
[16:19] EDUs assigned to them. So on an EDU
[16:23] basis, if we came up with a flat
[16:25] fee per EDU, X number of dollars per
[16:27] quarter, you as a single family homeowner would
[16:30] pay one, a large customer would pay multiples
[16:33] of that. How many gallons are there in
[16:36] the EDU? So I think the township ordinance
[16:41] says two fifty, but I think there's also
[16:43] some number two seventy five. But if we
[16:46] were to go to an EDU base, well,
[16:48] first of all, I think went to an
[16:49] EDU per day per month per day. I'm
[16:51] sorry, per day. Yes. If we went to
[16:54] an EDU basis, the number of gallons is
[16:56] gonna be immaterial because it's just a flat
[16:58] charge. Can you walk through along those lines
[17:02] for the benefit of everybody in the room,
[17:05] assuming that you are a single family homeowner
[17:09] and you were receiving two bills, can you
[17:11] explain the difference to us between one based
[17:13] on one based on usage so everybody's on
[17:16] the And if you're not, please speak up
[17:18] so we get it. So if we did
[17:20] a EDU based charge, we would take all
[17:23] the costs associated with the sewer system on
[17:26] an annual basis, basically in the budget that
[17:29] you adopt in December, we would take count
[17:32] up all the EDUs that are connected in
[17:34] the entire system. So all the single family
[17:36] homes, multifamily, all of non residential uses, we
[17:42] get a total number of EDUs. And we
[17:45] would take the budgeted cost divided by that
[17:48] total number of EDUs. And that's what you
[17:51] would pay on an annual basis per EDU.
[17:53] And I think you bill quarterly. So you
[17:55] take that annual by four. So one dwelling
[17:58] unit is typically one EDU? Correct. I would
[18:02] say it's always one. Almost by definition. And
[18:06] again, the point that I had touched on
[18:09] earlier is that a single person is going
[18:14] to be consuming, in many cases, less than
[18:17] two fifty or two seventy five gallons. And
[18:20] a family of, I can think of a
[18:24] family in the north end of the township
[18:26] who has eight children in middle school and
[18:30] high school, a lot of water being consumed.
[18:35] So they're consuming quite a bit more. And
[18:38] see, in my view, that's one of those
[18:40] equity challenges. As you say, here's a person
[18:44] who's consuming 100 gallons a day, paying for
[18:48] two fifty. Here's somebody who's consuming 1,100 gallons
[18:51] a day, paying for two fifty. It's trying
[18:55] to find the equitable and fair way of
[18:59] approaching those kinds of things. You know, the
[19:02] hospital blowing 2,000,000 gallons a day, that's always
[19:06] gonna be a big number no matter how
[19:07] you slice that. But it's dealing with the
[19:12] residential customers where some people are, if you
[19:16] will, underpaying and some people are overpaying. And
[19:20] that was always in my concern because you
[19:22] have a fair number of people in the
[19:25] country where you have older people who might
[19:30] be a single or a couple with nobody
[19:32] else living in the house, where their consumption
[19:34] is considerably less than typical we can do.
[19:38] Now we're putting aside filling your swimming pool
[19:40] or worrying your hands, that's a whole different
[19:41] discussion. That's my challenge with equity. Yeah, you're
[19:46] absolutely right. And when you go to an
[19:48] EDU basis, the assumption is every single house,
[19:51] let's just stick with those, is the same.
[19:53] Is it that it's every house or is
[19:55] it by acreage? Structure on every house. So
[19:59] on that basis, they're all considered equal. Now,
[20:03] true in some years where there's a family
[20:07] of 10 living in the house, that usage
[20:09] is gonna be more. Those people are gonna
[20:12] retire, they're gonna move out. And twenty five,
[20:14] thirty years from now, now there's just two
[20:16] people, maybe a young couple that's living there,
[20:18] their usage is gonna go down. So it's
[20:20] kind of an average of, in a snapshot
[20:23] of the entire township, and it's also an
[20:25] average over time that usage rises and falls
[20:29] depending on the occupancy in the building. But
[20:33] again, that's why there often is a push,
[20:36] like I said, unless it's really a low
[20:38] rate that nobody really cares about. And often
[20:42] when there's low flat rates, if you actually
[20:45] calculate the usage rate, they're generally the same.
[20:48] So then it just becomes easy because you're
[20:50] just charging here the same thing. But that's
[20:53] when the push to usage comes into play
[20:56] because yes, you're absolutely right. Someone, retired couple
[21:00] uses less arguably than a family with eight
[21:05] children, for sure. And it's plain as day,
[21:09] you're using, you're being charged what you're actually
[21:14] And just for the purposes of clarification, I'm
[21:17] sure almost everyone here knows this if you're
[21:19] a sewer user, but the way we charge
[21:21] is sort of a combination of two, we
[21:23] have a base rate, and then additionally, a
[21:26] gig per gallon usage. And I think we
[21:27] have at least four different four different base
[21:30] rates. Because they're four different Because they're four
[21:32] different systems. The base rate is the same
[21:34] for everybody. In that system. Yeah. Is there
[21:40] anything else from the board? We can move
[21:42] to public comment, if not. Anything else public
[21:46] comment, but I'm just going to remind everyone
[21:48] that we are going to focus on things
[21:51] going forward and not make comments about things
[21:53] in the past. We would ask you that.
[21:55] We would also ask you to hold to
[21:57] the three minute limit and limit the comments
[22:00] to positive ones and inquisitive ones. And I'm
[22:03] going to try my level best to both
[22:05] take your comments and hold up to thirty
[22:07] seconds. But if the timer goes off and
[22:10] I haven't held up thirty seconds then. Give
[22:11] us your name and address. I'll give it
[22:13] to you. I'm about to tell. There you
[22:22] go. I certainly need a nice lawyer here
[22:24] first. Joe Meaden, seven thirteen. Joe, you're a
[22:29] great study. Obviously, the more funds that are
[22:34] in the account, the better it is to
[22:36] start with. Great study. So, I'm going to
[22:40] answer your question, like, if the developer say,
[22:43] wants to add a new box to the
[22:45] sewer system, but the township didn't feel obligated
[22:49] to allow allow it. Maybe close by, but
[22:52] they didn't wanna allow it for whatever reason.
[22:56] Developer sues the township, they get into a
[22:59] legal battle. And those legal bills be charged
[23:03] to the sewer rate users. That's built for
[23:05] one second That is way outside of my
[23:07] opinion. Mister Deenan? Mister Deenan, the law provides
[23:13] that the township cannot use sewer connections to
[23:17] control development. That's specific in the law. Sure.
[23:21] And so if a developer applies for connection
[23:24] to the system, provided they can pay the
[23:27] tapping fees and associated costs, the township cannot
[23:30] legally deny them. So the scenario you've described
[23:37] can't take place. Questions involving engineering are what
[23:41] we're here to talk it's you cannot answer
[23:45] a question about. Let me let me just
[23:47] reiterate though that the the purpose of the
[23:49] race is to cover the budgeted expenses for
[23:53] the sewer the township. Sure. Makes sense. The
[23:56] operation, let me just finish because I still
[23:58] have time. Operation manuals or do you update
[24:03] them or are they already on-site or they
[24:07] exist? Bill Hagen, you have upper O and
[24:09] M manuals for pump stations? Actually, do know.
[24:12] Okay. So the answer is no. You don't
[24:17] really have any complex facilities in your system
[24:19] that normal people associated with sewer operations don't
[24:24] operate. Sure, a lot of times it ties
[24:27] in with confined space and trees like specific
[24:29] safety. Yeah, that's again is something for Bill
[24:32] Hagen. Let me do training for confined space
[24:34] and and the guys do get trained and
[24:36] there's a group of employees that are more
[24:39] apt to go into the stations than others
[24:41] just because of their specialties, whether it's adjusting
[24:45] pumps, whether it's pressures, whether it's checking valves,
[24:48] whatever that may be. So out of the
[24:51] eight employees, I would say that 50% of
[24:53] them are part of operations and maintenance of
[24:57] the stations and the system itself, because that
[24:59] would include televising, jetting, cleaning. Right, sure, maintenance.
[25:04] Okay, thank you. Mr. Childers? Yeah, of course.
[25:08] Two basic questions. First of all, It's not
[25:25] gonna be right versus last year, isn't it?
[25:27] The first one relates to tactics. My understanding
[25:31] is that I've done a lot of research
[25:34] on this. I I can't have your experience.
[25:36] Please understand that. I don't intend to say
[25:38] that. However, my understanding of various townships, they
[25:42] have adopted that fees that are commonly associated
[25:46] with the equivalent EUs as opposed to a
[25:49] consumption based system. So, in terms of calculating
[25:53] tapping fees is totally different than how you
[25:56] would do your rates. Is that tapping fee
[25:58] based on the state mandates? So, there is
[26:01] a state law that specifies how tapping fees
[26:05] are calculated. Is that act 57? Yes. Do
[26:08] you do you always use the act 57
[26:11] in your in your studies in recommending those
[26:14] the the when, when the township adopts a
[26:20] tapping fee, by example, they're supposed to provide
[26:23] all that medical computations in order to justify
[26:26] that expense instead of just a single one
[26:29] liner. Is that correct? Correct. But what they
[26:31] may actually include in the resolution? I don't
[26:33] know. But they have that. That's what's got
[26:36] be included at least as a record so
[26:37] that somebody can see that document? Yes. Okay.
[26:41] Okay. Excuse me, mister Childers. Be be clear
[26:44] on the difference between rates. I have tapping.
[26:47] Tapping fees and rates are two separate issues.
[26:49] Okay. Thanks. Tapping fees are based on historical
[26:52] norms as I understand it. Historical falls for
[26:55] establishing of a basic system both of what
[26:57] you're building as well as the what what
[27:01] exists that you're tying into. And also, it's
[27:04] supposed to include, as I understand it, that
[27:07] if you had something built in 1998, which
[27:10] was, that happened to have been a project
[27:12] which I was very familiar with and I
[27:14] think you were the first you were on
[27:16] the board of trustees or supervisors at that
[27:19] very same year. And those costs were significant
[27:23] for me as a regulator. I I was
[27:26] charged an assessment for it at that particular
[27:29] moment in time. Now, future connection to that
[27:32] system, I understand it is that it's commonplace
[27:36] to forward to for somebody else to come
[27:39] to online there. They should be, as I
[27:42] understand, it is commonplace to charge that future
[27:45] tap fee at that future point in time.
[27:49] Based on about three to four criteria for
[27:52] establishing that modified rate for that future date.
[27:55] Including the cost of financing escalation, cost construction
[28:00] that the costs have gone up and it
[28:02] should be based on not only the original
[28:04] cost, but on the projected cost at that
[28:07] future date. When the township adopts a tapping
[28:10] fee, that is the fee until they, in
[28:14] some time in the future, increase or decrease
[28:16] that debt. But is it not common to
[28:19] adjust it over time when it comes up
[28:22] instead of waiting twenty years? So, typically system
[28:28] owners will revise their staffing fee more frequently
[28:33] than twenty years. Why is that done? Why
[28:37] is that done? Yes. Well, most importantly, because
[28:41] usually the fee goes up, they want to
[28:43] generate more money. It generates money for the
[28:45] sewer account, does it not? Yes. And it's
[28:47] fair because you're paying a net amount. That
[28:49] is a time, we're over three minutes. You're
[28:51] paying an ample amount for what somebody did
[28:53] originally. Alright. Thank you. We'll catch rates. Okay.
[29:01] Murray Gordon, forty two ahead of you. How
[29:04] much is this gonna cost? That's my question.
[29:07] A. B, why don't we call Easttown Township,
[29:11] Tradipitant Township, the Ocean Township to see their
[29:14] models and and their metrics and what they're
[29:17] doing? Tradipitant is to live there. Chesterbrook is
[29:20] replete with thousands of EDUs in a concentrated
[29:23] area. I know they must have grinder pumps
[29:27] in Trinidad and Tobruk, Easttown, same thing, and
[29:30] they've been East Ocean. So there are enough
[29:34] models there and experiences to see how we
[29:37] should proceed rather than going this route. I
[29:40] would think that's what I would do. That's
[29:42] one of my wrap up questions. So thank
[29:44] you for getting that. I'm assuming that there'll
[29:46] be an analysis as part of your study
[29:48] of what the surrounding townships do. So yes,
[29:53] we always try to provide information on adjacent
[29:58] municipalities or system owners, what their rates are,
[30:01] how they apply those rates, as well as
[30:04] what their camping fees are. And then the
[30:06] final question is what local township or townships
[30:09] have you provided this service? So I recently
[30:13] have done tapping fees for West Whiteland Township
[30:16] or West Brandywine Township Municipal Authority, Also rates
[30:20] for both of them, rates in 2018 was
[30:26] the last time I did them in West
[30:28] Town Township. Okay, but nothing for Trinidad and
[30:30] nothing for East Ocean and nothing for East
[30:32] Town? No, we're not engaged by it. Thank
[30:35] you. I'm afraid you didn't get an answer
[30:38] right. Okay. Did not get an answer to
[30:40] it. Oh, yeah. How about the cost of
[30:41] the survey and the time period? So we
[30:45] haven't really started work on that. Once we
[30:48] get through this meeting and get all your
[30:50] feedback, we're gonna provide Shana with our fees
[30:53] for the three studies. Guestimate? Guestimate for all,
[30:59] you know what, I really don't want to
[31:00] provide. Starting a dollar anywhere. And when will
[31:08] that be disclosed? We'll get it. We'll get
[31:11] it. The next regularly scheduled meeting of the
[31:16] Board of Supervisory when we get to the
[31:19] meeting. Julie Bressor, Chapel Road. So my question
[31:25] was kind of going back to the game.
[31:27] Murray touched on it. Just what is the
[31:29] overall estimated time period that you're thinking this
[31:32] is going to be fired? In order to
[31:34] complete the study? Yeah, like just to go
[31:36] through the three studies that you're managing. So
[31:39] we're gonna do all three currently. The rates
[31:42] is the most important. We wanna get that
[31:44] completed in September when the township starts to
[31:48] work on their budget because by the time
[31:50] they get through the budget process and ready
[31:53] to adopt it in December, They wanna add
[31:55] the rates in order to cover what their
[31:57] budget costs are gonna be. Second most important
[32:01] is the capital reserve study, because that's gonna
[32:03] be a component of the rates. So we
[32:05] need to complete that so that we plugged
[32:07] in into a placeholder in the budget, how
[32:11] much the township should be setting aside each
[32:13] year for that fund. Tapping fees are the
[32:17] least of the concern, mainly because right now
[32:20] there's not a significant amount of development going
[32:22] on where someone's coming in building 100 houses
[32:26] and all of a sudden you're looking at
[32:27] a big check to come in. So all
[32:29] three studies by the September, the latest? Yes.
[32:34] So, the studies, I know you mentioned already
[32:37] that, so when general engineering finishes the work
[32:42] and the studies are available, they will be
[32:44] brought back to a board supervisor meeting and
[32:47] shared with the public? Yes. Yep, all right.
[32:56] You're sort of behind the post. I'm not
[32:58] very shy. That needs to allure one false
[33:04] recently. First of all, I apologize. I feel
[33:09] like a few minutes. In the the opening
[33:12] party presentation. Apparently, your study is going to
[33:16] do assessment of the condition of the assets.
[33:20] And I was like, comparing the age to
[33:23] lifetime expectancy of these assets, or is it
[33:27] gonna be some physical evaluation of the stations
[33:31] in line with that kind of thing? I
[33:34] have a follow-up. Yes, so part of it
[33:36] is, for instance, in the pump stations, we're
[33:38] gonna go out and look at what the
[33:40] current condition of them is, get all the
[33:42] information on the equipment there, pumps, piping, look
[33:46] at the condition of the structures. And then
[33:49] based on that, there's a normal useful life
[33:53] of something versus based on what its current
[33:54] condition is. And are you gonna be scoping
[33:57] a lot of lines as well, or is
[33:59] this gonna be primarily just? This is right
[34:03] now, we're kind of just taking a desktop
[34:05] view of everything. There is ongoing work with
[34:09] looking at the sewer system and that's gonna
[34:12] continue, but this is really at this point
[34:14] in time, and given the time constraints that
[34:17] we have to get things But it kind
[34:22] of leads into my last question, which is,
[34:24] has this been conducted in a thorough way
[34:27] before? And if yes, is this something we'd
[34:30] be able to tap into as a resource?
[34:34] When the study was done five years ago,
[34:36] we can just subtract five years from the
[34:39] expected life of these assets and your compensation
[34:41] on that basis or are you going to
[34:44] be starting from scratch? So on the capital
[34:46] reserve, as far as I know, that has
[34:48] not been conducted, certainly not. We've been associated
[34:50] with the township since 2012. I don't know
[34:53] if anything has been done prior, but I
[34:55] don't believe so. So that's gonna be a
[34:57] new study. As I mentioned, I think TAPPING
[35:00] was last done in 02/2007, and that's gonna
[35:04] be our starting point. We're gonna look at
[35:05] what the prior information was and update that
[35:10] from what stage between that and that. Then
[35:12] also just as a pause, a lot of
[35:15] the physical work is ongoing, but also, and
[35:21] forgive me putting it this way, as part
[35:23] of the prep for the sale, an awful
[35:28] lot of this data has been gathered. When
[35:32] Mr. Malin says that they can do this
[35:34] by the September, he's not exactly starting with
[35:36] an empty empty box. A bit of that
[35:40] stuff sorted there. I promise this is part
[35:42] of component that actually checking back to you
[35:44] guys instead of Carol engineering is have we
[35:49] had a component of the rates prior to
[35:53] this, which has included a revised provision for
[35:57] anticipated replacement of some of the assets is
[35:59] every human use of life as I've already
[36:02] done. Perfect timing. Yeah, and I'll respond to
[36:06] that to say it has not been studied,
[36:10] if you will, professionally. It's always been done
[36:12] from an accounting perspective here. So the financial
[36:16] staff has looked at it. So to have
[36:19] someone come in with a clean set of
[36:21] eyes without prior assumptions going into it is
[36:26] a better way at this stage. Again, our
[36:30] financial people have said, here are our costs,
[36:34] here's what we're looking at, and that number
[36:36] has been rolled forward. But I think having
[36:39] a professional third party look at it that
[36:42] way is gonna be a better way of
[36:43] assessing those numbers. I think we have a
[36:47] couple more. Yeah. Charles Laday. Yes, I would,
[36:58] I have a couple of things I'd like
[36:59] to talk about. I'd like to thank the
[37:02] board for respecting the process. I said this
[37:06] before at the last at one of the
[37:08] previous meetings. I really appreciate it's certainly democracy
[37:15] and action. It's refreshing to see. I also
[37:20] think that these steps are also very welcome.
[37:22] This is a good way to do it.
[37:25] I think when you talk about equity, I
[37:28] think that it's important that you protect the
[37:32] smallest users. And I'm not one of the
[37:35] smallest users. I am a user who I
[37:40] don't have eight kids, but my wife and
[37:43] I use plenty of water and we're happy
[37:46] to have it. But one thing I do
[37:49] have is I have a sprinkler system and
[37:51] I would like to see some equity in
[37:54] the for the people who are using water
[37:57] but are not using sewer. So I'm I'm
[38:00] I don't think I think that I should
[38:03] be paying for every gallon of water that
[38:05] I put into the sewer system, but I
[38:08] don't want to put a, you know, that
[38:10] amount of, I don't want that figured off
[38:13] of my water bill. And, and I don't,
[38:17] I also don't expect to pay for two
[38:20] fifty gallons a day because I'm, I might
[38:23] be using more than that. And I'd like
[38:26] to pay for what I'm doing. So I
[38:29] would ask that in the process of this,
[38:32] Carol Engineering tell us a way that the
[38:36] people who are using more water, but aren't
[38:38] putting it back into the sewer could possibly
[38:43] get a meter or provide meters through the
[38:47] township. You're willing to pay for it, if
[38:51] I'm willing to pay for a meter to
[38:53] to meter exactly how much water I'm putting
[38:56] in, or to meter how much water I'm
[38:58] using for another source and deduct that, I
[39:01] would ask that that might be possible if
[39:05] we might possibly find a way to do
[39:06] that. I think that's actually something that you
[39:10] have to approach Aqua about. You need to
[39:14] do some plumbing in your house to separate
[39:16] your sprinkler supply from everything else. From Aqua's
[39:21] perspective, they'd be more than happy, I'm sure,
[39:23] to charge you some sum to install a
[39:27] second meter. Well, that's what I'm asking Bill.
[39:31] I'm asking you, though, is I'll pay my
[39:34] plumber to put that in if we if
[39:36] we can find a piece of equipment that
[39:38] Carol Engineering thinks is is equitable, because this
[39:42] isn't a deal with awkward this a deal
[39:44] with you. All right. So I'm asking you
[39:47] how to get a deduction from your bill
[39:50] by putting a piece of equipment in the
[39:52] Carol Engineering Trust so that you trust it
[39:56] instead of it. Instead of me working with
[40:01] Aqua. I understand the part about Aqua, but
[40:04] I. So we will absolutely Mr. Ladain, we
[40:09] will talk about sub metering now water that's
[40:12] used, but does not go into the system.
[40:14] Good. And then if can figure out a
[40:16] way that we could buy, that we could
[40:18] all buy the meters together and make some,
[40:22] economic benefit to the people and into the
[40:26] system and as an equity thing, that would
[40:29] be perfect. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you
[40:33] very much. All right. Let me see if
[40:37] I can bring up the next. We have
[40:39] somebody else here. Sawyers? Yep. Can you hear
[40:47] me? Sure Okay. Jay Salyers, six forty one
[40:51] South Warren Avenue, Malvern, PA. Going back to
[40:55] that comment about the meters, the company, Neptune
[40:59] makes the meters. They're used throughout The United
[41:02] States from water companies. And I know this
[41:06] because I want a water meter because I
[41:08] have a low pressure sewer system. We're a
[41:11] low use household, one to two to zero
[41:16] people at any given time, and we've been
[41:18] stung with a ginormous $600 bill for essentially
[41:22] nothing. Now, the previous township manager gave a
[41:26] lovely rebate and said that this thing was
[41:29] fixed. And I doubt it, because nobody was
[41:33] ever picked up on any cameras coming and
[41:35] looking at anything. And I've had pre doc
[41:38] out here numerous times when they clean it
[41:41] out, and there's nothing wrong with it. There's
[41:43] no water coming into it, but I get
[41:45] these crazy bills. So in fairness, Carol Engineering,
[41:50] when you're doing this, I would like to
[41:53] look at Neptune meters. And like the previous
[41:56] gentleman, I'll pay to put it in. I
[41:59] want my bill to be reflective of that
[42:01] because I don't have city water. I have
[42:04] a well. And if I can take that
[42:06] lid off that tank and there's no flood
[42:09] coming in, all I can tell you is
[42:12] there's no possibility of me running up a
[42:15] $600 sewer bill. It just it's just not
[42:21] happening. That's one of the aspects that we'll
[42:24] be looking at with Carroll Engineering and they're
[42:27] familiar with the situation like that. But also
[42:32] the people who are not on public order.
[42:33] Yeah. Thank you. Is your St. Yes. Hi.
[42:42] Brian St. So I'm not as technical as
[42:47] everybody else here. So simplistic in its simplistic
[42:51] form. We're here now. We got through a
[42:56] lot of them, right? Where my question is
[42:59] going, I know we have Carol engineer here.
[43:02] I've also saw an email by Julie now
[43:05] talking about they were trying to have a
[43:07] put together a group of people that were
[43:10] going to help see the sewer. So I
[43:14] guess I'm getting down to the transparency of
[43:17] being able to understand. And I assume that
[43:20] is the surveys that are going to come
[43:22] out, which is basically a line item. I
[43:25] mean, Aqua said there's all this investment that
[43:28] needed to be made into the sewer system.
[43:31] So I guess so that we have an
[43:32] open communication and dialogue so we can see
[43:35] what's going on. I mean I don't know
[43:37] the value of tapping and all this stuff
[43:39] but I think we do want to see
[43:41] or be involved in is being able to
[43:44] see what is really going on the cost
[43:47] and you know and what the condition is
[43:50] of the service system. We can, my point
[43:53] of view, a common sense understanding that, okay,
[43:57] money that's needed for the race. Let me
[44:00] send it better. And that's again part of
[44:02] what they're doing. When Aqua talked about the
[44:06] capital investment, most of those comments came from
[44:10] the to do list that we ourselves have
[44:15] already, for the most part, identified. We've identified
[44:18] something on the order of 3 to $5,000,000
[44:20] worth of stuff. One of the most critical
[44:23] elements is what's called INI, inflow and infiltration,
[44:27] that is groundwater and rainwater and water from
[44:31] streams that gets into the sewers. So you
[44:35] have non sewage water in the system that
[44:38] gets pumped all the way over and recharged
[44:39] by the Valley Forge sewer authority to process.
[44:45] So everything that we can do to reduce,
[44:49] to the greatest extent possible, eliminate I and
[44:52] I is dollars that users aren't paying for.
[44:59] But it's also a very expensive thing to
[45:01] do because, well, this town's a very wet
[45:05] area. If you hear me in storm board
[45:08] discussions, we're downhill of everything. And we've got
[45:12] a lot of streams, a lot of creeks,
[45:14] a lot of water to challenge and televise
[45:18] the system to find, oh, here's a root,
[45:21] here's a crack, here's a break. And we're
[45:23] in the constant, mean, Mr. Hagen has a
[45:26] whole bunch of charming videos to look at
[45:30] if you find things like that interesting, where
[45:32] you're running down the inside of a sewer
[45:33] pipe and there's a nice, nice pipe and
[45:35] then it offsets because the ground has shifted,
[45:39] the roots have moved it, the earth has
[45:42] moved. And of course, at that point, you've
[45:45] got groundwater flowing. You've got to go out
[45:47] there and identify those places. You've got to
[45:49] dig them up, you've to fix. Them. Time
[45:51] consuming and expensive. So there is already a
[45:54] list. The pump stations, the life of the
[45:58] pumps, the control systems, the power systems, the
[46:04] panels, broadly speaking. So we'll be able to
[46:07] All of that's, and again, it's all gonna
[46:09] be discussed in public. Yeah, because I'm a
[46:10] guy who likes to look at stuff and
[46:13] I would like to see what makes up
[46:15] the sewer system actually be able to. All
[46:20] of that will be part of what's going
[46:27] on. I can understand a rate adjustment, right?
[46:30] Yeah. And that's part of what one of
[46:33] the three studies is, is the capital reserve
[46:36] fund study. So you'll be able to get
[46:37] down into the nitty gritty and witness from
[46:40] and see exactly how that happens. But to
[46:45] your first question, it is that we have
[46:49] been approached by a group of people. I've
[46:51] met with some of them. I've enjoyed all
[46:53] the meetings. We're at a point where we're
[46:55] trying to figure out what is is right
[46:57] now and what's the condition. And we will
[46:59] absolutely hope to use everybody's knowledge in every
[47:03] group, everybody that's suggested themselves and other people.
[47:06] Many of you are here. Actually communicating it.
[47:11] Absolutely. That's why we're having these meetings. Thank
[47:14] you. That's all I want to do. I
[47:16] just tossed in, and Mark can attest to
[47:18] this because he does a lot of I
[47:19] and I work, that looking at this stuff
[47:21] gets old real fast. Yeah, how many videos
[47:25] of the inside? Of Brian might want to
[47:30] look at more though. The videos of the
[47:33] inside of the pipe. I'm sure there's a
[47:36] list of pipe needs to be replaced, right?
[47:39] Pump needs to be replaced. Us dryers need
[47:42] to be replaced. There's controllers. There's a to
[47:44] do list for this. Yeah, there's a, that's
[47:47] the understanding of the health of the sewer
[47:50] system. That's why we're here in a nutshell.
[47:53] Yes, Dick. As I'm Dick McDonald, I'm 29
[47:57] in Worcester Road in Paoli. So I've been
[48:00] doing work for self management industry for past
[48:03] sixteen years. So this is my field And
[48:06] so it is all interesting to me. Read
[48:08] the latest report and so on, but I
[48:12] know all these things are to use that
[48:13] have to be done. I'm interested because the
[48:17] technology is moving ahead and we have a
[48:20] small conveyance system that would be relatively easy
[48:23] to get your arms around. But I think
[48:26] there's opportunity to move from reactive and we're
[48:31] probably already doing predictive or preventative, but we're
[48:35] probably not doing predictive maintenance. And I think
[48:37] our system with maybe 20 or so pumps
[48:41] is such that we could get to a
[48:43] point where we could be doing predictive maintenance.
[48:46] And that's the kind of things I'm interested
[48:47] in is, are we running the right pumps
[48:50] in the right way? And you know, we're
[48:51] moving because I don't think we are right
[48:54] now. I think it's just the wet wall
[48:55] comes on, float comes on and says pump.
[48:58] And you know, there's some efficiencies that we
[49:00] could get out of a small system if
[49:02] we put a little bit of money into
[49:04] that predictive and also operational efficiencies. Bill raised
[49:09] his hand. Well, over the last seven years,
[49:12] I started at Pump Station One. We put
[49:15] brand new xylum pumps in there, seven and
[49:17] a halfs. They'll have a seven and a
[49:18] half pump on the shelf. So if there's
[49:20] a breakdown, we can interchange that pump. Station
[49:23] number two, they went to 15 horsepower pumps.
[49:27] Did the same thing there. Station three, when
[49:29] we did the upgrades, we were only gonna
[49:31] put two in. We suggested we put a
[49:33] third one in there because that moves the
[49:35] most sewage per minute. Everything goes from Station
[49:40] 3 to- Exactly. Up to King Row before
[49:43] it crosses over and goes down to the
[49:45] meter pit. But in that installation, I believe
[49:50] it was, I can't remember the engineer saying
[49:53] that was back in 2013, just when I
[49:55] started. But I said, Jimmy Stairs told me
[49:59] a horror story about that station running on
[50:02] one pump for seven months because they had
[50:04] ABS pumps in there from Sweden and we
[50:07] couldn't get the parts to fix it. So
[50:09] I said to Dennis Tracy, I said, would
[50:11] love to put a third pump in it.
[50:12] He says, well, you got the sump pump
[50:14] over there. I said, fill it in. And
[50:16] we didn't put three pumps in there. So,
[50:19] I mean, that's a matter of sleeping at
[50:21] night or not, if you're running a pump
[50:22] pump or, know, Having three in rotation, even
[50:26] if you have to do maintenance, that one
[50:29] pump gets pulled off at stand, you send
[50:31] it out, you still have two pumps to
[50:32] run the station. Also Station 5, Pence Reserve.
[50:38] There was a dual pump system in there.
[50:41] There was a pump that pumped it up
[50:43] to Gorman Rups on the second floor. There
[50:46] were submersibles down below, pumped it up to
[50:48] Gorman Rups and then pumped it up to
[50:49] the settling pond and then sprayed the dudes.
[50:53] We moved them into two xylophones, brand new
[50:57] control panel. So we have been dumping money
[51:00] into the stations and the pumps. The next
[51:04] phase of that would be to go through
[51:05] panels and start to update electric generators. I
[51:09] mean, the two ones, Devin Roeder, our old
[51:13] backup generators, when power fails, the generator kicks
[51:17] on and keeps the stuff flowing. Suppose it-
[51:20] Well, the the other part of that's the
[51:21] idea. The software aspect that says, you know,
[51:25] I can move the same amount of water
[51:26] running through BFEs at 50% for less money
[51:29] than one BFE at 100%. So, let's let's
[51:32] not go too technical. I know it's amazing.
[51:35] I'm saying is eyes glazing over. So you
[51:39] can hear that you don't hear. You're right.
[51:42] And when you get into looking at a
[51:43] specific facility, that's the time when you start
[51:46] doing those situations to see whether there's a
[51:49] better way to do that. But in a
[51:52] global sense, Bill has been addressing these one
[51:54] by one. Kevin writes 6.8 way, not the
[52:00] subject for this meeting, but I'd like to
[52:04] say thanks to Bill. He's back because he's
[52:07] gone for a while. Oh, you have no
[52:10] idea. Oh, he's been a lot of time.
[52:11] It wasn't very helpful. He's doing it. We
[52:14] have a follower. It was nice. I wasn't
[52:22] emailing you every few weeks. Anyway, but for
[52:28] Bill and for both Bills, yeah, of these
[52:32] things can be boring to look at this
[52:34] data, all this justification, but not if you
[52:37] haven't seen it since 2013, the last rate
[52:41] study was done. Not if you haven't seen
[52:43] it during the process of asset purchase agreement,
[52:47] maybe a lot of work was done. We
[52:50] haven't necessarily seen it. So I think that's
[52:52] this gentleman's point, that's some of the granularity
[52:55] and specificity that we as users and that
[52:57] people who are gonna burden have to carry
[52:59] burden of increased costs because things get more
[53:01] expensive. We just know that. Why? What's in
[53:04] it? What about the CapEx? What about I
[53:07] and I? What about all these things? And
[53:08] so I was on a recoverable basis and
[53:11] share all the information, then it's all gonna
[53:12] be a lot easier to swallow or flush.
[53:17] I'm sorry, I wish you had the links.
[53:19] Yeah. We have not heard in the back.
[53:27] Try not to do seconds until everybody is
[53:29] working. So mister Swift. I have two questions.
[53:33] Mister Swift. The first is that the biggest
[53:38] single cost of the sewage system is what's
[53:41] paid to the Valley Forest sewer authority. Do
[53:45] you have good projections as to what those
[53:48] costs are going to be for the next
[53:50] three to five years? So I don't know
[53:53] the answer to that. Yes, it's the answer.
[53:55] We do. Yes, we do. They may have
[53:58] provided them. Yes, true. What I was gonna
[53:59] say is they would provide that information to
[54:02] the township. I'm sorry to interrupt. I just
[54:06] wanted to make clear that the township will
[54:09] certainly provide that to the sewer engineers so
[54:11] they can incorporate that in the studies as
[54:15] we move forward in this process. The second
[54:18] relates to something that Bill Schumacher had mentioned,
[54:21] which is I and I. In the litigation
[54:24] with ACWA, ACWA, late in the case, made
[54:28] the argument that INI was very excessive. And
[54:33] I know based on Bill Haggen's comment that
[54:37] the township is looking into that, but I
[54:40] believe the best comprehensive study was more than
[54:43] ten years ago. And are you going to
[54:46] factor into your study the cost of a
[54:51] comprehensive examination of INIs? So yes, we will
[54:58] do that in the capital reserve, and it's
[55:03] gonna be two components. So part of that
[55:06] is if you should be inspecting your system,
[55:09] industry standard is 20% every but we're gonna
[55:12] have to also look at accelerating that to
[55:14] get caught up to where we are today,
[55:18] because that hasn't been done on a regular
[55:19] basis. Before trying that, is there any Mike
[55:25] Curry have not gone to? Correct, is that
[55:27] correct? Yeah, Mike Curry, go ahead. Hey, Phil,
[55:30] a question, the upcoming rate increases, will they
[55:34] need PUC approval on that or the amount
[55:36] speaks for itself? No, the township is not
[55:39] subject to the PUC. Okay, so we're going
[55:42] on the second round of questions. I just
[55:44] ask that you try to, that you keep
[55:46] it same rules, but move to a separate
[55:49] topic if possible. Is there anybody who hasn't
[55:51] spoken yet? Actually, do we have, no, do
[55:53] we have anybody in the room? Not yet.
[55:56] That's a repeat of Okay, I have my
[55:59] recording for you too. Have a few. Do
[56:01] you shop for electricity for the sewer system?
[56:04] Because these pumps to which you referred are
[56:07] energy hogs, as they in the petroleum business.
[56:10] So do you shop for electricity and lock
[56:12] it in? I do all the time and
[56:14] also shop for natural gas. So, all right.
[56:17] That's something we should be doing. You can
[56:20] do it in Pennsylvania. We're very thankful because
[56:22] you can't do it in a lot of
[56:23] states. And I also applaud you. I have
[56:26] two sump pumps combined as a contingency so
[56:30] I can sleep better at night so I
[56:31] know exactly what you're talking about. Have you
[56:34] ever contracted to do a study with the
[56:36] township and then follow through and took over
[56:39] running of the sewer system? So we do
[56:43] not do any operations. Do you have a
[56:45] division that does that? No. Alright. Thanks. So
[56:49] he doesn't have a best interest in the
[56:50] conductor. Yes. Based on my review of minutes
[56:57] going back to nineteen ninety nine, ninety eight.
[57:01] There's a comprehensive video to speak in terms
[57:04] of my friend Bob Bob Quick. The that
[57:08] the system was fully videoed in 1998. Another
[57:13] point regarding to our grinder pumps. These are
[57:17] not positive replacement pumps. That means that if
[57:20] you have head pressure that means resistance and
[57:23] your pump is just churning there, you get
[57:25] false flow readings because it's not measuring flow.
[57:28] It's measuring how long. It's measuring average in
[57:30] terms of what that that that pump's doing.
[57:33] So, point about false readings about some pumps,
[57:36] that's absolutely correct. The objective would be put
[57:40] in a a measurement of water flow from
[57:43] your well that you would that would measure
[57:46] what you're actually measuring. And then if you
[57:48] wanted to subtract from your water flow from
[57:50] the well, you take it not excluding your
[57:53] external. This question was brought up in the
[57:57] same time period, 1998, '19 '90 '9. It
[58:02] was discussed. There were solutions to it. There's
[58:06] been a lot of technology since then too.
[58:09] Yes. Improvement. Less cost. Remote reading, everything. Ease,
[58:15] plastic pumps, you can do your own cell
[58:17] phone. And that's what we're hoping to get
[58:20] out of it. Let me just address some
[58:22] properties that are on well, not on public
[58:24] funds. So there's usually two ways to end.
[58:29] The system owner will allow you to put
[58:32] a meter on your well, and you get
[58:35] the meter readings just as if you were
[58:36] connected to Aqua system. And they'll get that
[58:39] and that's how they'll calculate your bill. They'll
[58:43] also charge you a flat rate. Typically flat
[58:46] rates are higher than the average usage bill
[58:51] because the system owners, I'm not saying that
[58:54] the township will do this, system owners want
[58:57] you to be on a metered system so
[58:59] that number one, it benefits you, and number
[59:03] two, it makes it easier for them to
[59:06] generate their bills because they're just using one
[59:08] formula. They don't have to like figure out,
[59:10] all here's all the usage people and then,
[59:12] all right, I gotta separately do flat rate
[59:14] bills. But my understanding is that the best
[59:17] practice on that is to take the metering
[59:19] zone, your three monthly, if you win a
[59:22] month where you're not irrigating your lawn and
[59:24] use those three months as your average on
[59:27] flow rates if you're trying to establish a
[59:29] base rate. We're not going to get into
[59:34] that. I I know that but that's I'm
[59:35] just saying that he's talking about solutions and
[59:38] I'm saying this is what I understand. I'm
[59:41] not talking about solutions, I'm talking about what
[59:43] I've observed of how system owners calculate the
[59:45] rates. Well, this is another method that other
[59:49] users have done. Yeah. Thank you. And we
[59:54] might, Zoom is a little tricky sometimes with
[59:57] the raised hands. Mr. Stolliers, did you have
[1:00:00] something else to say or is your hand
[1:00:02] still up? No, I did. My hand, I
[1:00:05] reraised my hand. I apologize. No, go ahead.
[1:00:08] And I think that was Jerry that was
[1:00:11] just talking about the addition of the water
[1:00:13] And yes, that's exactly I would want it
[1:00:17] right before my water processing where the softener
[1:00:22] and neutralizer is. And then my outdoor water,
[1:00:25] I don't have to deduct anything. But anyway,
[1:00:28] Dana, this is kind of for you and
[1:00:30] not so much for Carol Engineering. For folks
[1:00:34] who are getting a metered bill off the
[1:00:37] hour meter, no one has said anything in
[1:00:40] all of the years this has been done,
[1:00:41] and I think it's time for this to
[1:00:43] come to an end. But we get a
[1:00:46] bill that just says, Here's your number of
[1:00:48] gallons. When I get the electric bill, it
[1:00:51] tells me my start, my end, and how
[1:00:54] many kilowatts. I can do the math. I
[1:00:57] can't do any math. Nobody that gets one
[1:00:59] of these bills can do any math. So
[1:01:01] in other words, we need a start and
[1:01:03] an end and a conversion factor to equal
[1:01:08] my number of gallons. It's basically unacceptable the
[1:01:11] way it is. So, I mean, that's something
[1:01:13] that just needs to be kind of updated
[1:01:15] going forward since we're opening everything a You're
[1:01:19] in a I'm on a well. But we
[1:01:24] have the hour meter on. And going back
[1:01:26] to what Jerry had said with the pump,
[1:01:30] my dad was an engineer. I come from
[1:01:31] a family of engineers. He was the guy
[1:01:33] who stuck the system in here. And basically,
[1:01:37] I've got a lot ahead that I'm pushing
[1:01:40] up to get to where the got to
[1:01:43] get through a couple check valves. So most
[1:01:45] likely, what's happening is I'm getting stuff that
[1:01:47] comes back down and the pump churn, churn,
[1:01:49] churn, churns. And the bills haven't been bad
[1:01:54] lately, but, you know, I'm waiting because we've
[1:01:57] all seemed to have gotten these phantom bills.
[1:02:01] So that's why I'm saying we really need
[1:02:04] a start, an end, a conversion factor, and
[1:02:07] then the number of gallons. Deep lymphatics. Okay.
[1:02:10] We hear you. Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you
[1:02:15] very much. I've got an additional clarification. I
[1:02:18] understand that mister Shoemaker declared the use for
[1:02:22] this is back in in the exhibit H
[1:02:26] that the flow rates consumer including I and
[1:02:30] I was two fifty gallons per day, okay?
[1:02:35] Has anybody done any analysis within your accounting
[1:02:38] department to determine, compare these flow rates we're
[1:02:43] being charged for through Valley Forge and Valley
[1:02:45] Trunk Line versus how much how much we're
[1:02:49] being billed how much we're being billed. We
[1:02:52] know there's a big discrepancy which is why
[1:02:54] we know we have an I and I
[1:02:56] problem. What? I don't know what the number
[1:02:58] is, but it's it's a variable. Estimate is
[1:03:01] it's close to 40%. No. Excuse me. It's
[1:03:04] almost 80% of what's actually being billed. I
[1:03:09] don't seem to recall the number is that
[1:03:12] that high but what I'm saying is we
[1:03:16] know we have a problem and that's why
[1:03:18] we're going after it. Has anybody determined what
[1:03:21] the cost benefit analysis would be to take
[1:03:24] care of the the major problem. The major
[1:03:27] problems. You you attack my business. It my
[1:03:30] experience been the tax for the major problem
[1:03:32] before you deal with the minor problems, okay?
[1:03:34] Now, comments have been made regarding conflicts between
[1:03:38] Pendot Roads and our our sewer system lines.
[1:03:42] Is is Paley Pike 1 of those issues?
[1:03:45] Paley Pike is State Road. Were you aware
[1:03:47] of the fact that the sewers two three
[1:03:49] thousand two hundred feet of that were installed
[1:03:52] by township contract in 1998, '19 '90 '9.
[1:03:58] Were you aware? Wasn't installed by the state.
[1:03:59] No. No. No. No. The road. No. You
[1:04:02] did. Your minutes, in your minutes, it says,
[1:04:05] if you did the work, 80% of the
[1:04:07] budget came through the state. But but you,
[1:04:12] Willstown did the construction. That's my understanding based
[1:04:15] on your minutes. Construction of the sewer system.
[1:04:18] Storm drainage. Okay, we're not talking about storm
[1:04:22] sewers here. We're talking about No. No. The
[1:04:24] problem my understanding is that the storm sewer
[1:04:28] has problems that have caused leaks in the
[1:04:31] Okay. Sanitary we bought it, though. We're not
[1:04:34] gonna sit here and analyze those aspects. We're
[1:04:37] trying to figure this out. We know that
[1:04:39] there are many places where storm sewers and
[1:04:43] sanitary sewers are in close proximity, let's put
[1:04:47] it that way. They may not necessarily be
[1:04:48] in the same trench, but they're in close
[1:04:50] proximity. There have been issues where the storm
[1:04:54] sewers, which are in many places corrugated metal,
[1:04:57] have rusted out, the water is coming out
[1:05:01] the bottom of them. All these are I
[1:05:03] and I issues. We can't sit here today
[1:05:06] and say, well, this storm sewer or that
[1:05:08] storm sewer. We don't know that. And that's
[1:05:12] what we're going to try to find out.
[1:05:14] We don't have those answers. But the general
[1:05:18] question is, respect is, if we know that
[1:05:21] there are problems with a conflict between a
[1:05:24] storm system that's causing problems to our sanitary
[1:05:27] system, why haven't we done something more forcefully
[1:05:31] with respect to the entities who built it
[1:05:35] or maintained it or have that responsibility? My
[1:05:39] point to it is my understanding is that
[1:05:42] was along 3,200 feet was a well sound
[1:05:47] right. Okay, thank you, thank you. This is
[1:05:50] not the form for that. We have a
[1:05:53] lot of storm water coming down right now,
[1:05:55] it's adding to all the problems we're talking
[1:05:58] about here tonight, immeasurably. So if there are
[1:06:02] no more questions, I'm gonna adjourn the meeting
[1:06:04] so people can get on before it becomes
[1:06:05] horrible. Mike Kerstownach? Yeah, so are you gonna
[1:06:08] have another meeting right there? Yes, so what
[1:06:10] will happen is we will hopefully get all
[1:06:12] the final reports with no appendix left behind
[1:06:17] by the September. And then we will meet
[1:06:19] to talk about them in public forum like
[1:06:22] this. And in the meantime, I think we
[1:06:25] might set up a module on Ratanjak website
[1:06:27] if you have questions or comments about the
[1:06:29] study in the interim that you maybe didn't
[1:06:32] think of today. We'll try and set something
[1:06:34] up that they can be submitted online. Can
[1:06:37] there be progress meetings? We are saying that
[1:06:40] we will have the progress meeting. That's exactly
[1:06:42] what we're saying. Thank you, rather than the
[1:06:44] final report. Correct. Might do those at regularly
[1:06:52] scheduled board meetings. Or either before or after
[1:06:56] to paint us on the. Yep. Yep. The
[1:06:57] scope rules anticipate. Yep. Yep. Transparency. Mister Penn
[1:07:00] State in the back. Tell me your name.
[1:07:02] I can only see. Mean, I'm going associate.
[1:07:05] Are there going to be several meetings to
[1:07:07] to look at the stormwater issues? Yes, so
[1:07:10] right now we're undergoing a storm water master
[1:07:12] plan. Yep, Right now they're in a small,
[1:07:16] big pond down White Rock. Yeah, you're not
[1:07:18] alone. You're not alone. Very wet township. All
[1:07:20] right, the next meeting of the Board of
[1:07:22] Supervisors is July 17, '7 pm. Same bad
[1:07:25] time, same bad place. Thank you very much.