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And. We. Something’s going on. Good evening. Welcome to the Historic Preservation Commission meeting on this Thursday, August 13th, 2006 hearings before the Historic Preservation Commission are quasi judicial in nature.

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This is a design review process to determine if the proposed project is congruent with the special character of the historic district, or landmark decisions of the Commission are based on the record of these proceedings. The Wilmington Design Standards for Historic Districts and Landmarks, and the Secretary of Interior Standards for rehabilitation evidence submitted to the Commission for review becomes part of the record. Appeals of the Commission.

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Decisions are made to the Wilmington Board of Adjustment and then to Superior Court, and are based on the record. Appeals must be filed within 30 days of the date of the Commission’s action. Evidence is received during the evidentiary hearing portion of an agenda item.

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Those who want to address the commission are sworn as witnesses to present material and substantial evidence to the Commission. The chair recognizes those who want to submit such evidence during the evidentiary hearing. Evidence should be directed to the Commission to ensure that evidence is properly recorded. Please come to the podium and front here.

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Um, maybe adjust the microphone if you need to, uh, to address the commission, state your name and address and speak clearly. Members of the Historic Preservation Commission are appointed by the City Council and serve at its discretion. Our responsibility is to protect and preserve properties within the city’s designated historic districts.

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We adhere to the Wilmington Design Standards for historic districts and landmarks, as well as applicable North Carolina state law to assess whether exterior changes align with the unique character of the city’s historic districts. It is important that we deliberate the merits of each request in a manner that provides a record of the basis for our decisions.

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Please remember that our deliberations should center on how a project meets the design standards, and whether the proposed change is congruent or not. Commissioners, if you have been made aware or received any outside evidence related to any of the matters, please recuse yourself. And if you would also please turn off your cell phones or set to silent mode. Thank you for that.

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And I would like to introduce staff starting at my left over here, Brian Chambers, Gina S is that. I’m sorry. Uh. That another staff member. I’m sorry. Oh, it’s. Oh, my gosh, I’m sorry. Gina’s daughter. Future. Future staff. Okay. Gina s, um, Alden Finn home. Uh, Ben Riegel. And then to my right is Amy Bradshaw.

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And then if commissioners could please introduce themselves from my left, starting there, I’m Paul Lawler. Beth Rutledge. Joan Keston. I’m Christopher Carmel. Ashley Wilson. Steven silk. Um, staff on swearing. Any witnesses over facing this way toward Amy. Swearing. Any witnesses who will speak tonight? Um, if you will stand for that oath and face that direction, please, toward Amy.

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If anyone who wishes to speak this evening, if you have an item on the agenda or you plan to speak towards an item on the agenda, please stand up and raise your right hand. Please note you must stand up and be sworn in in order to speak this evening.

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Do you swear the testimony you’re about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Thank you. Thank you. Uh, first order of business tonight. Well, first of all, before that, uh, just want to announce that there are, uh, Wilmington Police Department and a Swat team associated with the department or doing some trainings

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tonight. So they’re starting an upper floors, and they’ll be working their way down here. But if you see a fleet outside of vehicles of that nature or inside, don’t be alarmed. It’s just a typical training that’s being done. Um, uh, also want to note that we’re going to, well, actually, let’s do this first. Approval of minutes.

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Can someone make a motion about are there any adjustments or can we go ahead and approve? Uh, someone make a motion to approve the minutes from last month. So moved. Is there a second? All in favor? Aye, aye. Any opposed? Passes. Um. Other housekeeping item items? Agenda items number six, seven and 823.

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North front 27 and North front and 35 North front. A continuance has been requested. I think we have to make a motion to push that forward to. A motion to continue. Is there a second? Second? All in favor? Aye, aye. Thank you.

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And then now we’re going to start with old business item number 11812. Grace, I was not here last month. So I’ll not be participating in this. And Joan is going to serve as chair for this agenda item. Good evening commissioners. This hearing is for the property of 1812 Grace Street, which was continued from the July 9th Commission meeting.

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The proposed request is for a porch entry change, side additions and modifications. Sorry. The property sits on the south side of Gray Street, three parcels west of the intersection of North 19th and Gray Street, located within the Carolina Heights Winnetka Terrace Historic District overlay. The building is a contributing resource within this district.

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Only work visible from the public right of way, excluding alleyways, is subject to design review within this overlay, district. Here we have an aerial map showing the view of the subject property. The following description has been adapted from the National Register Survey report, constructed circa 1925.

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The Charles A Thomas House is a two story Colonial Revival dwelling clad in weatherboard siding with a pyramidal roof, overhanging eaves, two bay facades featuring a side hall entrance with a pediment porch supported by columns, and a distinctive quadruple six over one sash window. Additional character defining features include a six over one sash windows, simple arcade surrounds, and a one story west side addition and an exterior chimney.

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The applicant proposes replacing the current door, front door, and hanging light in the portico with a new light fixture. Here we have the front porch, the current front porch, and the proposed front facade. Elevation drawing.

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Here we have the current six panel front door with the replacement door to the right, which is a 33 inch wide, 91 inch tall, 24 light panel wood door from the Architectural Legacy Salvage. And on this slide, we have the current hanging light in the portico. And on the right we have the new light fixture.

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The new light fixture is a 19 ten 1910 Arts and Crafts copper and iron hanging light chimney lamp with stained glass. This slide shows the existing west elevation visible from the public right of way, alongside the proposed west elevation, drawing the solarium windows will be glass panel per the elevation drawing.

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Staff notes that only a portion of the solarium porch enclosure will be visible should the addition be visible through the glass. The addition will have wood lap siding, shingle roof, matching exterior to match sorry shingle roof to match the existing structure. Here we have a close zoomed, a zoomed in photo for the commission’s viewing.

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This slide shows the existing east elevation as visible from public right of way, alongside the proposed east elevation, drawing the. The applicant proposes constructing a one storey rear side addition on the the rear east elevation. As stated in the previous meetings, the rear side addition will have brick foundation, lap wood siding and a shingle roof to match the existing structure.

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Next, the applicant proposes to remove two existing windows in the first floor kitchen and infill and reinstall the windows at the rear elevation. The new windows will be two feet by four inches by two feet by four inches. Six light windows.

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That will be Marvin Wood windows painted black and an infill trims where the wind all infill and trims where the windows are removed are to match the existing sides and windows. Next, the applicant proposes adding three new windows to the first floor dining area. The size will be two feet by eight inches and six feet by six inches.

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All six over one light patterned double hung Marvin wood windows and will be painted black to match the existing. Lastly, they, the applicant proposes removing one existing window in the second floor bedroom. In the second floor bedroom and reinstall the window onto the rear elevation and add two new windows in bedroom number three, the new windows will match the existing and be a six over one light pattern.

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Double hung Marvin Wood window black to match the existing staff. Also notes that a small tree in the rear east corner may be removed as a part of the East Addition. Construction. A tree removal permit will be required if the tree is over four inches in diameter at breast height.

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Here we have a more zoomed in photo for the commission’s viewing. This is the agent site plan showing the plan in an aerial view. If the commission elects to issue a certificate of appropriateness for this request. Staff recommends the following condition be applied one.

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A tree permit must be obtained prior to removal of any tree over four inches in diameter. All windows shall be clear with no tint. All construction shall comply with land development and Building Code and other applicable laws, and all permits shall be obtained.

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Any changes from the submitted information shall be approved by the Historic Preservation Commission or of minor by staff. Staff would like to enter the presentation and report on the record for tonight’s proceedings. Are there any questions? Do we have a photo of the tree in question? I think I have a this would be. It right. Here, but not in particular. Okay. Like from the back. Okay. Thank you. Of course.

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Anything else? We’re all done. Thank you. Of course. Is it the big tree or the little tree? That big tree? It’s that kind of white. Yellowish. Whoa! Oh, okay. Yeah. Gotcha. No. Okay. Good distinction. Thank you. Yeah. Of course. With the applicant. Like to speak tonight? Please state your name and address and speak into the microphone.

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My name is David Deschamps. My address is 4846 Winter drive. I am the agent for the owner and the applicant. And I’m here to answer any questions if need be. Any questions? Thank you. Thank you. And we’ll open up the evidentiary part. What I like. I would like to speak to this project. We’ll close that part.

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Um, Commission deliberations. Any comments? Anyone want to do a motion? I’ll do a motion. I move to approve. With conditions. Request. Replace the front door and front light fixture. Construct a glass panel solarium on the west elevation. Construct a side addition on the east elevation.

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Replace and reconfigure the existing windows on the east elevation for the property located at 1812 Gray Street. This request is consistent with the Wilmington Design standards for historic districts and landmarks. Based on the evidence provided, including the application and all attachments. Testimony presented during the evidentiary hearing and the staff report. Conditions of approval one through for.. Second, anyone. Second. All in favor? Aye.

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Anyone opposed? Passes unanimously. Thank you. Okay. Item number 212 North sixth Street. Ben. Uh, expansion of the ash garden area. There. Good evening, commissioners.

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Case number two is a request for the proposed expansion of the existing ash garden, located on the west side of the Fellowship Hall building of Saint Paul’s Evangelical Lutheran Church at 12 North sixth Street. As described in the Wilmington Historic District. Boundary expansion and additional documentation report dated 2003. Construction of Saint Paul’s Lutheran Church began in 1859, but the outbreak of the Civil War delayed completion of the church until 1869. The the Gothic Revival style.

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The Gothic Revival style church features a man I got a nap flying around me here. It’s like trying, framing for my nose. Um, a Gothic Revival style church features a gable front with a central tower and steeple. The walls are clad in stucco and ornamental, ornamented with pilasters, a decorative slate roof, and Gothic arched lancet windows adorn the church.

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The parish house and fellowship hall were constructed in 1941 and 1985, respectively. The two and a half story parish hall features a front gable with wide rectangular bell tower with an entrance. The one story contemporary addition, now used as a fellowship hall, is attached to the parish house by a hyphen.

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The subject building is contributing resource to the historic district, and revisions to all facades of the building and the site are subject to design review in this district. The subject property is located on the east side of North sixth Street, occupying the entire street face between Market Street to the south and Princess Street to the north.

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Staff notes that because the church and associated buildings occupy the entire block face, this parcel is considered a corner lot. The applicant proposes to expand the existing ash garden on the west side of the Fellowship Hall, also known as Keever Hall, including a new patio area and a low wall with a fence.

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The existing garden area will be extended approximately 17ft, which will require the removal of the existing landscapes and shrubs from the current western side of the garden. The Ash Garden, while visible from North sixth Street, will be approximately 30ft east of the sidewalk. Following the proposed expansion.

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The existing masonry block patio will be expanded into new garden area and will be complemented with a new patio area of techno blue, 60 paver slabs. The expanded garden will be surrounded by a five foot black aluminum fence with finials set on a low masonry block wall.

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A matching metal gate will provide access to the garden from the existing sidewalk leading to the south of the garden, as seen on the photo to the right. Or excuse me, beyond the photo on the left. An example of the proposed low wall and fence can be seen in the photo sample on the right side of the expansion plan, seen on this slide.

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New landscaping similar to the landscaping removed to allow for the garden expansion, will be added around the expanded patio area. The landscaping will primarily include Europas, azaleas and Podocarpus plants and will be highlighted by 752 inch monument stones. A bench will be added on the south side of the paver slab patio.

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A central light pole, six custom monumental lights, monument lights, two architectural tree up lights, six premium walkway path lights and a commercial power center capable of smart automation and control will illuminate the expanded ash garden. The nearest neighboring house is located on the opposite side of North sixth Street, approximately 100ft away from the expanded Ash Garden, and therefore is unlikely to be impacted by the increased garden illumination.

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If approved, staff recommends the following conditions. The proposed lighting shall only illuminate the ash garden area, and there shall be no light trespass onto adjacent properties. The proposed fencing shall not exceed six feet in height.

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No mature trees shall be removed as a result of this project, and all construction shall comply with code with any changes being reviewed. Staff would like to enter the presentation or report into the record of tonight’s proceedings. Are there any questions? Anything? No. Thank you. Is the applicant here or the agent for the applicant rather to. speak to this or answer any questions? I’m sorry, I’m one of the pastors, but I wasn’t.

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I thought someone else was going to represent it. Oh, okay. I can answer a question. You didn’t swear in. Oh. Uh, okay. That’s fine. Um, do we have any. Would we have any questions for an applicant? Oh, really? No. I’m wondering, actually. So, sir, I’m sorry if you’ll.

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If we could swear you in. Um, if you face Amy over there. Because maybe you could answer a question or two. Do you swear that the testimony you’re about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Yes, sir. Thank you. I’m sorry. Your name and address.

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Pastor Mark Operand of Saint Paul’s Evangelical Lutheran Church. I live just down the block from Saint Paul’s at 1509 Princess Street in the Carolina district. Thank you very much. Uh, you had a question. Do we have a sample of what the pavers will look like? No. It wasn’t. Anything represented in the application.

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I didn’t see anything myself. About what? That it had the word blue when they. Were done. I was wondering. If. They will be able to match what we already have. I know that part. Okay. See, this is.

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This is actually this the second expansion? The first one, the garden was begun in 1998, and in 19. 14 or 15, I think we had the first expansion. The same people who did that are doing this one to extend it. So it’s just a natural thing that comes when you have an aging congregation and people are dying to get in. Huh? Okay. Um.

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That’s the ash garden. It’s not the ash tree. Um. Any other any other questions regarding this? No. Good. Thank you. Very much. I’m in my 30th year there too, so I’ve seen it all from the very beginning. So wonderful. Thank you for that. Congratulations. Um. Uh. Okay.

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Anyone in the audience would like to speak in favor or against this item? Seeing none moved to Commissioner dull deliberation, uh, or we can. Someone can make a motion. It seems. Seems reasonable to. I think all of us. I move to approve with conditions the request to expand an existing ash garden, including a new wall and patio area for the property located at 12 North sixth Street.

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This request is consistent with the Wilmington Design standards for historic districts and landmarks. Based on the evidence provided, including the application and all attachments. Testimony presented during the evidentiary hearing and the staff report.. Is there a second? Second. Second. Steven. Uh, all in favor? Aye, aye. Any opposed? Passed unanimously. Congratulations. Good, good.

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Good project there. Nice looking project. Thank you. Um. Uh, agenda item 3206 Orange Street. Alden. All right. Good evening. Hearing number three is 4206 Orange Street for the proposal to widen the existing east driveway and replace the existing concrete driveway surface on both the east and west driveways of the property with pervious paving

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materials. Do you think I would. Hold on? There we go. The property is located at the southeast corner of the intersection of South second Street and Orange. The subject property is a contributing resource to the historic District residential.

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And in this district, revisions to all facades of the building and site are subject to design review. Here is an aerial map of the property. The property. The following property description is adapted from the Wilmington Historic District Boundary Report from 2003. A three story residence, raised basement with a low pitched hip roof featuring deep bracketed eaves with large pendants.

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The primary entrance is located with a within a side passage, and is sheltered by a pediment portico supported by square columns. This entrance includes sidelights and a transom. A porch is attached to the east elevation. This slide shows where the current driveways are located on the property. The east driveway is located to the. Left.

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And the west driveway is located to the right of the home. Staff would like to note that there are currently two pre-existing curb aprons located in front of the driveways. Here we have the eastern gate, so this will be on the left side of the property.

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The applicant proposes proposes widening the existing east driveway gate from 8ft to 11ft, matching the width of the existing west driveway gate. In order to improve vehicle access. The existing masonry gate column will be relocated approximately three feet to the west and reconstructed. Reconstructed to match the existing design and brick material. Here we have a photo of the existing east driveway.

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A portion of the existing masonry retaining wall and stairwell will be relocated approximately three feet to the west, and reconstructed to match the existing wall in height and brick material. Here we have the visual looking north onto Orange Street. The current brick wall and stairway are crumbling due to the moisture being trapped in the cement.

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The applicant is open to two potential reconstruction options for the board’s consideration. First, the stair could be rebuilt with poured concrete. Second, the the stairs could be rebuilt with brick to match the existing wall and capped with the same capstones used on the retaining wall across from the driveway, which can be seen here on the left. Photo. This is the existing condition of the driveways.

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Lastly, the application the applicant proposes to remove the existing concrete driveway services on both the eastern and western driveways and replace them with a turnstone paver, which is pervious, which is a pervious paving system. The design will be here as shown. Staff notes that the applicant is also open to an alternative provision. Pervious driveway suggestions.

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If the board wishes to discuss this on other material options. All right. If the Commission elects to issue a Certificate of appropriateness, staff recommends the following conditions one. No tree shall be removed as a result of this project.

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A right of way permit must be obtained prior to any work that occurs in the public right of way. All construction shall comply with the regulations and requirement imposed by the Land Development and Building Code. All permits shall be obtained.

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Changes to the project that are described and submitted into this application shall be reviewed by the Historic Preservation Commission, or, if minor, in nature, by staff. Staff would like to enter the presentation and report into the record of tonight’s proceedings. Are there any questions? Paul. New guy question here? Of course. Um, what is a right of way permit? A right of way permit is for essentially the public right of way.

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Um, so it could be either the grassed strip landing between the street and the sidewalk, um, or it could be the sidewalk itself. So kind of, as it says, public right of way. crossing or city owned property. And that would just be. The public city owned. Property. Then that permit. Just says they can do the construction during the period of construction. That’s correct. So.

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Uh, so an issue would be permit is when they’re reconstructing in this in this scenario, if they were to need the sidewalk to reconstruct that retaining wall, and they needed to put up scaffolding or block off the sidewalk from pedestrian use, they would have to request for that permit.

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Are there any other questions? Anything else? I kind of maybe a dumb question, but this is this isn’t like one of these driveways isn’t an easement. It’s they’re both both of these gates are on this parcel, right? That’s correct.

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Um, this parcel is actually which the applicant was kind of explaining to me this neat history of this parcel is at one point, which I wish I blew up the, um, the Sanborn insurance map. More for you guys to see this, but you can see it on this map right here. Um, the driveway is where this kind of orange circle is. The second one is on the west side.

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And then there’s a third on this, um, southern side by second Street, because at one point in time, there used to be three properties on this lot, but they have been since demolished. Um, in probably the, early 20th, first century or mid. 21st century. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. It’s unusual for for downtown. Any.

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Stephen. Yeah. Just what is the minimum width for a fire truck? Isn’t there some code that like is it more than 11 because this is going to 11 which is better than they got. But minimum width for a driveway? No, for a fire truck, for fire in case the house is on fire. Isn’t there.

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A I think I think downtown they just pull up out front. They don’t need a driveway for. I guess you got a point there. But there. Just you wouldn’t have anything downtown. There isn’t a minimum width for the driveway that the truck would. You know this has to hose. The hose will be pulled around the structure. Okay.

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Oh, this while they’re at the widening thing, but. Okay. Um, any other questions for Alden? Thank you. Yeah. Of course. Is the applicant in attendance? May be able to come forward and answer any questions, please. Or provide any clarification or anything. Member. Um, my name is Dan Camacho.

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I live at 206 Orange Street and I am the owner applicant. Anything to add or entertaining? Questions only? I’ll entertain questions. Okay. Dan, um, you said you’d be open to either a brick or cement for this. For those steps. Do you have a preference? Not really. Okay.

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I mean, I think the current steps were sort of built and covered with some that to mimic poured cement. But, you know, it doesn’t really matter to me. Okay. I think they were built and then someone is a Band-Aid. If they deteriorating instead of like repointing and doing the proper masonry, they just covered it with concrete and hope that that would kind of solve any problems, but it probably exacerbated it. Yeah.

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But I’ll wait til delivery. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Other questions for the applicant. No. Okay. Thank you. Great. Thank you. Uh, anyone in the audience that’s with us today? I’d like to speak in favor or against seeing. None will come out. Um, sorry. Close the public hearing and open commissioner deliberation. I am in favor of brick and pervious.

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Ashley is favor of in favor of brick. And that in the pervious as it’s shown in the application, which I think is is a classy appearance. A turf block. Uh, yes. It goes by different names. Turf block is one of them. I would also go with the brick.

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I think the steps of the house are bricks that would match. Yeah, yeah. So I don’t know if that would be. One of the conditions or if we add that as a just to clarify, to make to, to have that come in to this, uh. Make a number five.

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Make it number five for, for the, uh, for the masonry stairs to match the existing. Okay. Um, would someone like to make a motion then on that? I’ll you do. I’ll make a. Motion. Give him a piece of paper out. Here. I moved to approve with conditions.

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Request to widen the eastern driveway and entry gate and replace the existing eastern and western driveways with pervious material for the property. Located at 206 Orange Street. This request is consistent with the Wilmington Design Standards for Historic District and Landmarks. Based on the evidence provided, including the application and all attachments. Testimony presented during the evidentiary hearing and staff report. You have to add number five. Yeah. Condition.

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So you just say conditions of approval one through four. And then add number five. The the new steps there would the relocated steps would be break. And the conditions of approval one through four as presented. And add number five recommending to make a brick stairs steps. Thank you. Is there a second. Second Steven second. Beat you to it again Beth. I can’t get fast.

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Yeah. Uh, all in favor I any opposed that passing unanimously. Thank you. Good luck with that work. Um, item 41619 Chestnut Street. Uh, Alden. Again. Okay. Hearing number four is for 1619 Chestnut Street for the proposal to construct a six foot tall wooden fence along the rear northern property line and increase the height of his

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existing brick wall along the eastern property line. The property is located on the northwest corner of the intersection of chestnut in 17th Street. The subject property is a contributing resource to the Carolina Heights Winnetka Terrace Historic District overlay, and within this district, only that which can seem from be seen

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from public right of way, excluding alleyways, is subject to design review. Here we have the aerial view of the property. The following property description is summarized from the National Register report.

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The Frederick E little House is a two story Dutch Colonial Revival residence featuring a brick first story cedar shingle, second story, and a gambrel roof with a full width dormer. The symmetrical five bay facade includes a nine over one wood sash window, a central entrance with a stained glass, sidelights, and a distinctive gable front portico. Additional features include a west side shed roof addition with two chimneys, brick front steps, and wrought iron railings.

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This slide shows the applicant provided site survey. As stated previously, the property is a corner lot at the intersection of Chestnut in 17th Street.

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The property, the proposed brick fence will be 63ft long and runs south to north along the east side of the home or in other words, along side 17th Street. The proposed wooden fence will run west to east along the northern property line. Constructed approximately two feet south. Interior of the northern property line and spanning about 65ft in length, and this will be running along the alleyway. Here we have the current wall and the rendering of the proposed brick. Wall.

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The applicant proposes raising the existing brick wall with an additional three feet. The wall extension will be four feet tall by eight feet deep. Um, sorry, four feet tall by eight feet. Wide. , um, and constructed of red brick designed to match the rear yard.

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A brick wall, the current iron railing will not be altered. The applicant proposes constructing a six foot tall wooden fence that will be matched the style and design of the existing rear fence on the adjacent property at 1617 Chestnut Street. The fence will extend west to east along the northern property line and approximately two feet interior of the property line. Spanning about 65ft in length.

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Here we have an example of the proposed fence style and another visual of the property line. Looking onto 17th Street. If the Commission elects to issue a certificate of appropriateness, staff recommends the following condition.

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The northern property, the Northern Privacy Fence, shall remain natural wood fencing six feet in height. The finished side of the fence shall face outward to public right of way. No mature trees or historic landscaping shall be removed as a result of the proposed project. All construction shall comply with land development and building code and all permits required shall be obtained.

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Changes to the project from that described in the application and submittal shall be reviewed by the Commission or, if a minor in nature, by staff. Staff would like to enter the presentation and report into the record of tonight’s proceedings. Are there any questions? I have one. The brick is that exact same brick still available. The color of the to match the texture. Um, red brick.

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Well, red brick isn’t just red brick. In other words, if they just add on to a different brick, you’re going to see that it’s kind of a patch job or. A right. Um, so. The red brick that is it’s to match is going to be the six foot foot fence.

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I mean, six foot brick fence that was approved by the commission in August of 2025. So that’s the that’s the red brick that it will be matching. It’s still available. Okay. Well they keep engineers keep changing things. So you. Know so yeah we got to tell them to stop. Right. Yeah I know that’s crazy okay. I just want to make sure. I appreciate. This match.

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Um, can you show us the photograph of the, um, of that cedar shake sided building in the back? Uh, yeah. So right there. So the. Is it your understanding that the new fence is not going to cover that that building, but it’s going to start at that far corner in the photograph on the right. It’s not going.

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To cover. It’s not going to the fence isn’t going to cover the, the that what we’re the big wall that we’re looking at that’s covered in cedar shake. Um, it is going to run. a like adjacent. To it. It’s going to run.

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Do you know how far away it would be by chance, or would the applicant is the applicant here? The applicant is here. And they can bring that up. Just, just would need to make sure that they’re going to be able to get access there that someone could physically get in there to do maintenance on that part of the building. Right. Okay. Okay.

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Oh I’m sorry Paul. Yeah. Um, I know there are, um, in the general. Um, city code. There are rules about fences on corners and how they work. Um, um, does this proposal comply with any, um, general city code outside of, uh, any HPC? It does.

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It does comply with others because it is on 16th Street and it’s a very busy street. Correct. So there is a there are other, um, fences on that street for privacy, like this one because of the, um, because of the traffic. Well, you’re speaking to the sense of the fabric of of things in the neighborhood.

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But I think what Paul is asking is, is there a code requirement that says that six feet is just too tall? And I think the answer to that really is that it’s up to the HPC, not not someone other than us. Right? It’s this I’m asking about the the sort of general city code that governs these sorts of things.

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And there are rules about fences on, you know, if you have a just a house in the middle of the street, you can put a big fence in the back and that’s fine.

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But there are separate rules, at least in the past, if it’s on a street and I didn’t know, just I assume that because at this point it meets all those rules. But I just wanted to verify that. Yes, there are different standards that the fence that’s along the right of way in front of the structure would be four foot, and that would be represented by the four foot.

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That’s why they live in at the four foot. That brick wall is limited to four feet because of that standard. Thank you. I knew you’d know the answer. Anything else? Thank you. Alden. Of course. And I’ll let the applicant, um, respond to your question about the space. And thank you. Good evening.

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If you would please state your name and address. Thank you. Alden. Sean winters, the address. Is 1619 chestnut. Okay. Anything to add, or do you want to start with that question I have about the, um. Well, first of all, the fence itself is down the alleyway. It’s not actually on 17th Street. Yes. Understood. That. My answer, Paul’s question.

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Well, the wall. The wall is on 17th. The fence is on the. Alley. 17th. And the commission had previously approved the six foot wall. So this is basically going to match the height of the railings, the black railings, the runs down the side. The 17th.

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I didn’t want to do it any higher just because I didn’t think it would look good, but running it at the height that we’re planning on running at, um, helps to hide all the mechanical stuff that’s coming down the side of the house is going to make sense. HVAC condensers, 400 amp breaker box spectrum boxes, gas lines, all that kind of stuff.

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Yeah, that makes sense. And but the but the wood fence on the side. So in this photograph if you’re look the photograph on the left there, this new fence, the wood fence, the six foot wood fence, how close will it be to that. Your garage there. It’s three feet.

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Three feet away. Yeah. So enough room for someone to get back there and maintain that wall. Yes. Okay, okay. Anything else? Any other questions? Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Um, if anyone is in the attendance, would like to speak in favor or against seeing none. Commissioner. Deliberation.

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Um, any thoughts further on this, or would someone like to make a motion? Either one motion. Okay. There you go. Back. I moved to approve with conditions the request for the property located at 1619 Chestnut Street. This request is consistent with the Wilmington design standards for Historic districts and landmarks.

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Based on the evidence provided, including the application and all attachments, testimony presented during the evidentiary hearing and the staff report. Second. All in favor? Aye aye. Any opposed passes unanimously. Thank you. Um. And agenda item five. Well, 12 South Front Street. Uh, Ben, please. Good evening. Gang.

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Case number five is a request to expand the existing driveway and replace the windows at 312 South Front Street, as described in the Wilmington Historic District Boundary Expansion Report dated 2003. The love House is a two story Colonial Revival house constructed circa 1910. The house features a brick first story and a shingled second second floor, which flares out to meet the top of the first floor.

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The first floor windows have an unusual seven over four light arrangement. The dwelling also includes a two story front porch and small side porch. The subject house is a contributing resource to the historic district residential, and as such, revisions to all facades of the building in the site are subject to design review in this district.

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The proposed property is located on the west side of South Front Street, three parcels south of its intersection with Anne Street. The applicant proposes widening the front portion of the existing driveway and replacing the existing crack concrete with new concrete for the entire length of the driveway.

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The front portion of the existing driveway will be widened from seven feet four inches, as seen here, to a to 12ft zero inches to allow the driveway to be more functional. To widen the mouth of the driveway and existing brick retaining wall along the north side of the existing driveway will be removed.

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A portion of the existing front yard excavated, and a new matching brick retaining wall will be constructed along the northern. The new northern edge of the expanded driveway. The new concrete driveway will feature a chevron arrow pattern to reflect the design of the existing concrete driveway. This is the elevation drawing of the proposed, um, driveway renovations.

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The inward swinging gates will be replicated in a larger size at the mouth of the proposed expanded driveway, as seen in the rendering on the right. The applicant proposes to replace all the existing seven over four and six over one windows with Pella Reserve. Traditional wood frame replacement units with modern configurations to match the existing windows to be replaced.

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The proposed replacement windows can be custom built to prevent the need to alter the existing window openings. The potential to repair the existing windows was investigated, but it was determined by the owner and applicant to not be feasible, so replacement of the windows is being pursued. Because repair is not feasible.

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The closest in-kind replacement units were chosen to minimize the overall effect of the house of replacing the existing wood frame windows. The window replacement project was initially proposed under or under the application for Koa number MW 552506.

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In June of 2005 25, at which time the HPC recommended repair of the existing windows instead of replacement because the owner and applicant were unsuccessful in getting the existing windows repaired, the request for window replacement is being made once again. Staff notice that no alterations to the driveway, apron, or right of way area are being proposed. If approved. Staff recommends the following conditions. All window glazing shall be clear with no tint.

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No existing window openings shall be altered in size as a result of the project. All replacement windows shall be wood frame with true simulated buttons. No with known snap on buttons. No mature trees shall be removed as a result of this project.

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Because of the proposed driveway expansion will require excavation work if any significant archaeological materials are found during the project, the property owner shall comply with the recommendations of the Office of State Archaeology on Preservation of Materials and the State Historic Preservation Manager shall be contacted. Any report on archaeological materials should be submitted to the city for keeping purposes.

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All construction shall comply with code and any changes to the project promoted as prescribed shall be reviewed. Staff would like to enter the presentation or report into the record of tonight’s proceedings. Are there any questions? Just the gates. The new gates. There’s still manual, not power. As far as I understand. Yes. Okay. Thank you.

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And this is just for a parking to have a parking spot in front of the house. I. You’re just asking to widen the driveway? Yeah. The, um, replacement windows. Will they maintain the. I’m not clear. Will they maintain the seven over four and six over one appearance? Correct. They will be using simulated buttons.

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The ones that are installed within the window and not the snap on kind that fall off after a year or two. And they can do seven over four. They’re custom made, correct? Uh, anything else? No thank you. The applicant in attendance. Hello. State your name and address, please. Yeah. Hey. And I see you, Commissioner Rob Romero, 1006 North Third.

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Uh, you have any questions? Uh, evidence of the efforts to to do repair, to find consultants to to to work on them. We don’t have photographs of the condition of the windows.

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I see they have storm windows covering them, but we don’t have pictures of the interior of the exterior and don’t know how badly these are deteriorated. I mean, one of our standards, obviously, is to I’d have to, uh, standard, uh, what, you know, one of the standards to, you know, maintain, retain and preserve original windows and doors in the, in the, the, the requirement to actually not do that as fairly stringent and

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just is there some evidence, can we get some evidence of the condition of these that they’re beyond repair? Well, after last time it was denied, I spoke with the city attorney who said, that’s not necessary to prove that case to the commission because as long as we’re replacing like for

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like in this district, would would it’s allowed and the commission can’t control what has to be repaired. It’s not part of your, your, your, your purview. So, Rob, it is an evidentiary hearing. So, um, we it’s okay. I’m going to ask Gina.

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Um, put this Regina, can we ask for evidence of that? So you can ask for any evidence that you would like. However, if it is a wood for wood replacement, regardless of what the commission orders, it is allowed. Um, so this one. So you can request evidence. Um, or, you know, additional information or additional documents.

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But, um, if he’s able to provide what occurred and testimony is also evidence, just as a report is, and things of that nature. Right. So we disregard the standards then, that we rule everything else by like standard 3.3 retain and preserve original windows. Um, repair when necessary.

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This this is a I we’ve talked about this a lot and this is a very, very, very big deal. So what this means is every historic window in every historic project or building downtown, if they have wood windows, regardless of the condition, they can remove those windows and install new windows off the shelf.

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New windows, as long as they’re made out of wood. Correct? That is correct. And that is not a disregard of the standards. So the standards there has never been an instruction that you cannot request or order repair of windows when that is the evidence before you.

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The reality of what we are facing is that if it is a light, if it is an in-kind replacement wood for wood, that is not a matter that goes to you for evidentiary hearing matters that go to you for evidentiary hearing, or when you apply the standards, you don’t have.

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There’s never been an instruction from anyone that I’m aware of to disregard the standards. Now, in certain circumstances. And we’ve had this occur in the past with things other than the windows. If there is an extraordinary circumstance to deviate from the standards, the Commission has that discretion as well. So the standards are not an ironclad.

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You must do this because under extraordinary circumstances, you do have the discretion to deviate. Okay. But they’re guidelines. I mean, they’re guidelines for us to make some decisions by, you know, to help with decisions. But there’s flexibility to them, I guess, is what you’re saying. And, um, well. We’re gonna wait one minute for this.

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I’m not sure what the discussion box with Ben. Rob. One question. So Ben noted these are replacement units. So does the to the frames, the existing frames that have been there since the building was built to the frame. Stay there.

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And then a new wood unit with a new frame around it gets installed in that. Or it’s just a sash replacement. You remove the existing sashes and put in new sashes, and you keep the frame and the sills. I think the frames are I mean, sills should be a decent condition. You know that there’s a lot of storm windows on the on this house, which is sad to see.

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So overall it’s going to improve the, the, the the appearance of the house. Yeah. And we’re matching the exact design. So it’s, it’s the same material. Um. But the glass gets smaller like the glazing. The, the, the light that comes into the home gets smaller because the you’re fitting a new window inside of an existing frame.

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Actually, I’m not sure what the contractor is going to do on that. It’d be better if he doesn’t do that. I’d rather see the larger window. Yeah. And to answer your question about the parking, it’s just to pull out. You know, there’s not a lot of on street parking there, so they need a little extra room.

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And that current seven four, they can’t even barely get a car through, you know, and open a door. What is what is the driveway going to be made out of? Concrete. Do anything that’s up more pervious in there. That’s not going to look like this. Concrete in about five years.

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Yeah. No, but you notice the original has kind of a nice tint to it, a kind of rose tint. And and it’s got some cool chevron shapes that we’re going to replicate, you know. So it’ll be like a stamped concrete. I think that’s what creates the chevron pattern. I think we can sock at that.

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That’s my that’s my goal or tool join or something to get that shape. Because it’s actually it looks like it’s raked in there. You can’t see it from that picture. But but it’s probably original. Doesn’t show it doesn’t look like it from the other picture. Yeah. Oh yeah. You might be able to.

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Yeah. You see those kind of grooves and there it’s kind of we can do that. That’s the goal. Oh, I see. Um, Ben or Gina, is there anything we need to be apprised of in regards to this with whatever that discussion was? No. Yes. As far as what.

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I it just felt like that there was some discussion that pertains to this. Is there anything we need to be aware of in the discussion between the two of, you? No. Okay. Um, any other questions for the applicant? Nope. Okay. Thanks. Thank you.

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Um, if there’s anyone in the audience like to speak in favor or against this item, if you’d come forward. Okay, Commissioner. Deliberation. Um, thoughts? Maybe starting from one end and going to the other. Even. I’m sorry. I mean, the wood windows or the wood windows, and we don’t have any purview to prevent it. Then that’s what I’m hearing. Okay.

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So, um, this is this is going to be a sad loss for this property. Um, they literally don’t make windows out of old growth timber anymore. They don’t do it. Um, windows are a character defining feature.

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And of historic properties, and, um, I am completely understanding that we we need to move forward with passing is the is is what, um, what I’m understanding. I also just want to take the opportunity just to share that under door and window standards. Number one, retain and preserve original windows and doors, including sashes, frames, glass lintels, sills, stools, trim, shutters and hardware.

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Examples of character defining features to be preserved include transom and sidelights. Repair rather than replace original windows and doors, um, that is, that’s number one. Um, it with our historic districts under threat in some, some new ways. Um, it’s it’s sad to it’s sad that that this, uh, can’t be, can’t be kept.

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Um, I do appreciate the, the effort to make these look like they’re supposed to look, um, I just want to say that just because they look, they look the same. It doesn’t. It doesn’t make them a it doesn’t make them historic.

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Um, I guess, you know, our I think our job as a commissioners is, um, is really dear to all of us because we all care about the places that we call home. And we’re going to try to to, you know, maintain that historic integrity as much as as possible.

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Um, I’m wondering, I do have a question for Gina about could we ask for the original windows to be kept on the property, or is that not something that we could request? That is not something you can request. Okay. Yeah.

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All of the national, you know, statewide, local, national preservation organizations, non-profit and otherwise, they sometimes they come up with a list of the most endangered things historically in every community or across the country, and usually at the top of that list are historic wood windows. Now it feels like we are in almost every single instance, completely powerless to help preserve some of these windows when they’re in perfectly, whether they’re in good condition or bad condition. You know, without evidence, without evidence.

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That’s photographic or a report from an expert or anything to state what the condition of the windows is. And if they can be repaired, then we have we’ve lost whatever power we have to like thwart that stated problem that’s happening across the country where these historic, valuable, invaluable wood

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windows are being or being lost and thrown in the in the landfill in exchange for um for these other, these other windows. Did they talk to anyone that has any like the Historic Preservation Commission or anyone. Wilmington Foundation. Historic Wilmington Foundation, who has any sort of.

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Expertise? Yeah. And and looking at these and helping them to, um, you know, get the pulleys in and. Just do the repairs and get them functional. Repairs and paint and, um. I don’t think that’s even necessary anymore. Rob, can you come up a second? You got to be by the mix.

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Uh, just a question about the replacement windows. Uh, lately, the term wood is kind of loose. So is this continuous fibrous wood, like, cut from a tree, or is this a composite wood? I think it’s true. It’s wood. It’s from it’s suspect wood, as far as I know. Yeah.

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I don’t I don’t know why they would do a composite. Well and yeah for I, I was on the commission for ten years as you know, and every time we, we would wood came to wood for replacing windows. It went through. This is not breaking news. And these windows I know they’re beautiful.

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The original the originals are beautiful. But there’s storm windows in front of these things. You can’t even see them right now. They don’t function very well. So I think that we’re doing something noble to improve this house.

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Well, my worry is more the longevity of the new windows, because the wood that, you in those windows is garbage compared to what you got. That’s why sometimes I’m almost more in favor of a composite wood that is more resistant to moisture, if you know what I mean. I mean, they’re going to be rotted in three years. Bingo. Well, yeah. That’s it. We see it all the time.

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I mean, that’s what it is. You’re going to be gone. You know, the next, you know, group of us are going to be dealing with the. Three windows. Now, But. Yeah, I’d. I think your mic is off. Now it’s on there. They do. Treat windows now so they will last. The new wood windows.

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Well and and I think the glass openings are getting smaller too because it looks like when you look at the images of these pillars are of traditional windows that they call them, uh, the it’s getting smaller.

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So you have an opening that maybe has, you know, a certain, let’s call it nine square feet of glass. And now it’s going to be less than that. So the there’s, there’s, it’s a smaller window that’s getting fit into an existing opening. Um, so anyways, that’s the that’s the window discussion. How about the driveway? Any comments on the driveway or questions for the applicant about the driveway with a parking out front? Oh.

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I’m assuming that’s going to be painted brick because it’s painted now. So as long as the texture of the brick is the same once it’s painted. That’s right. Without the cracks. All right. There you go. Okay. All right. I think we open it up again, so we’ll close. Commissioner.

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Deliberation. So, um, here we are with someone. Like to make a motion. I move to approve with conditions the request to expand the existing driveway and replace windows for the property located at 312 South Front Street. This request is consistent with the Wilmington design standards for historic districts and landmarks.

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Based on the evidence provided, including the application and all the attachments, testimony presented during the evidentiary hearing and the staff report second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Any opposed passes? Uh, next item. Agenda item number six. Oh, no. I’m sorry. We’re skipping through six, seven and eight. The next one on our list is item 91403 Market Street.

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Yeah. This one’s going to be fine. I’m sorry. 1403 Market Street. Uh, hearing number nine is for window replacement with a change of material. Um, yeah. I keep. Coming. Oh, excuse me. As described in the Carolina Heights Historic District National Register, Carolina Heights National Register and Historic District Report dated 1999.

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The Trinity Methodist Church, located at 1403 Market Street, was constructed circa 1921 and is a Neoclassical Revival building clad in rough texture yellow brick. The primary facade features a gable front with an engaged monumental portico in the temple form.

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The portico is supported by fluted tile Corinthian columns connected by a wooden balustrade, a closed pediment composed of tile, wood, and pressed metal contains a decorative tile wreath with a cross set in a foliage bed. A heavily molded metal cornice is supported by Arcadius leaf medallions and dental and a dental course. Two flights of steps leads up to the portico.

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The building also features arched windows along the the facade. A two story education building was added to the rear of the building and the rear of the church. In 1948. The subject building is a contributing resource to the Carolina Heights Winnetka Terrace Historic District, overlay only that which can be seen from the public right of way, excluding alleys, is subject to design review.

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All elevations of the church can be seen for the public right of way. The subject property is located on the northeast corner of the intersection of Market Street and North 14th Street. The applicant proposes to replace 93 existing double hung wood frame windows throughout the church as part of a comprehensive rehabilitation plan for the historic campus.

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Restoration options were initially sought for the existing windows. However, because there are a total of 93 windows and need of attention, the restoration estimates were substantially greater than the cost of replacement. The large number of windows to be replaced can be seen on these elevation renderings.

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The existing windows have deteriorated to the point where moisture is actively penetrating into the structure of the building itself, so replacement has been deemed the most practical way to address the situation. The proposed replacement window units will be Marvin elevated fiberglass clad wood windows, which were chosen to balance preservation, durability and long term stewardship of the church.

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The proposed replacement windows will have fiberglass clad exteriors, while the interior will be wood. The replacement windows will also preserve the traditional appearance, proportions, and architectural character of the existing openings.

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The applicant has included quotes from contractors included in the attachments and support of his of this proposed window replacement project staff notes that appears most of the existing double hung windows date to the circa 1948 construction of the education building at the rear of the church, and although staff recommended restoration of the existing windows of the church, determined that option not to be financially feasible. If To approve. Staff recommends the following conditions. All window glazing shall be clear with no tent.

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The existing openings shall not be altered in size. All construction shall comply with code and any changes shall be reviewed. Staff would like to enter this presentation into the record of tonight’s proceedings. Are there any questions? Yes, yes. Um, the the fiberglass clad has me worried because we’ve had this discussion before.

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So will they look like wood windows or are they look like plastic windows? Depends on the eye of the beholder. Um, do we have a sample? We have a sample of. That. Uh, it would have been in your packet. It’d been in your. It? Yeah. This. What I had was in your. In the packet. Yeah.

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With this. Not with this building being 1948 and not original to the the property, you know. Um. Well. There they are. Wood windows. Correct. That are in there now existing. But. Yeah. Um. Clearly evidence of. Not something built in 1909. Um. They’re mid, mid 20th century windows, in my opinion. Okay.

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Then I think what’s what’s hard is not being able to actually see what the new window would look like. Like I apologize that that this is what I had in the packet. I probably I didn’t think about grabbing it. I should have grabbed it off the internet. I apologize. It’s okay.

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Would the, um, the the surrounding be wood? Or would they keep that? I do believe they’re replacing the frames and everything, so I think it’s all going to be clad. Okay. But I think the applicant is here to speak on this. Yeah. If you look at.

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So there was a in the packet, there was, uh, some details from coastal window and door center and it shows the Marvin windows. And if you look at the in the. In the packet from coast to window and door center, it shows some details of the windows. And it looks like the frame. So the these schematic diagrams, um, it’s on page 60 of the packet.

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But schematic diagrams and it shows an integral, uh, trim feature which is, which is also, um, the same material. So it’s not wood, it’s the whole everything. Is this, uh, fiberglass. Which I don’t you may not be able to pull that up. I don’t know if you can pull that.

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But anyways, the point is that it’s the whole thing is fiberglass. There isn’t any more there. So I guess to replace these, they would remove the sills, remove the existing frames, the sash weights and pull it all out and install these new windows entirely. That’s my understanding. Yeah. Um, any other questions for Ben? Anyone? No. Thank you.

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Uh, the applicant in attendance. Uh, agent. Come forward and speak to this or answer any questions, please. If you’d state your name and address. I’m sorry. Okay. Were you, uh, at the beginning, sir? Were you? Either you were sworn in. Were you sworn in also? Okay. If you’d state your name and address, please.

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I’m Chad Brannon. I’m an agent for Trinity United Methodist Church at 1403. Okay. I’m Pastor brockmire. I’m the pastor, attorney United Methodist Church at 1403 Market Street. We’ll go ahead. Uh, I would like to emphasize several things. We are a congregation, and we do not really understand ourselves as owners, even though we technically are.

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We understand ourselves as stewards. Uh, we have inherited this building that’s over 100 years old from many saints who have come before us. And it is a beautiful and a sacred and a special place.

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And the spirit of this whole project is we understand that we are handing on this, on to the generations that are going to come after us. And as a congregation, as a church, we have taken a lot of care to preserve the building. The 93 windows that we’re speaking of are badly damaged, and there’s water actively coming into the structure of the building that threatens the integrity of the building.

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So it’s deeply in our heart to preserve the building, while at the same time as a congregation who is stewarding, we are also looking to the future to care for the generations that are going to come after us and continue the beautiful and powerful ministries of this church.

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And so we’ve done a lot of work, a lot of homework, a lot of consulting, a lot of pursuing a different options. And as we pursue those options, the most affordable, feasible and sustainable one is the one that we have lifted up and brought before you, uh, to protect the building, to preserve the building, to keep further water penetration from

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coming in, and also to care for the ongoing financial stewardship of the church for many years to come. One thing I’m very proud of that I like to share, is we began this.

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Our church, wrote a letter to the church of 2125 and we sealed it up. And it is in the concrete of the of the front porch with a marker that is on it, and it expresses our hope for the congregation that will be there 100 years from now.

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And that’s been the spirit of this whole project, is that we’re looking to preserve this building. This place is a sacred place for the next hundred years and hopefully beyond. And we’re taking much care to to deliberate, to discern and and to look at all of the options and to carefully select the ones that are going to best preserve the building.

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And the days that we have now. And of course, because it is a historic building and it’s beautiful, we want to to keep the historic beauty of the building. We are working very hard to protect it. With the restoration of the whole building inside and out.

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And, uh, we’re very proud of what we’re doing, and we lift this up as wanting you to know that much work has gone on our part. Many options have been explored, and we’re looking at the long term sustainability for the long run to best preserve our resources, to preserve the ministries and the life of the church that makes it so special, and also to

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preserve the historic nature and the beauty of this building. And so we thank you for this. And and the last thing that I wanted to lift up is there is some precedence. I have an example from Grace United Methodist Church, our sister church that’s on, uh, Grace Street and fourth Street.

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Uh, in 2024, uh, came before you to replace their windows. And in 2025, their windows were replaced for very similar reasons as ours with vinyl clad windows. And I have pictures and examples of that as an example for you.

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Just to set that there is precedent, uh, to address windows and the structure of these buildings and the sustainability for the future with the materials that we have available to us today.

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And so if this is helpful for you, I’d love for you to to see this as an example of something that has been approved by this very commission for very similar reasons as we have come. So thank you so much for your time. Good question. So the windows, the mountains are going to be painted. Well, I’m sorry Stephen, I didn’t hear that. Say that again please. The mountains are. The windows mountains okay. Yeah. That will be painted right. It’s not. In other words, the color doesn’t come in the fiberglass.

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It does, it does. These are pre finished windows. Stone white is the color. So the windows the windows are they’re going to come pre finished. It’s a fiberglass clad window. Wood on the inside. Fiberglass on the outside okay.

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The reason they’ve chosen that is for durability and long term maintenance. Um I work with churches. I represent a lot of churches. Churches don’t have money. These guys have a they have a gift that was given to them and they’re using that to fix their church for the next hundred years.

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So the the will the windows be painted after or they would just stay white the way they were. Are they will stay the color of what they were being installed as they will stay that color. They may, you know, years, 20 years. They may have to be freshened up. The color is which what the color is is off white or white.

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They call it stone white. Can you can someone pull up a photograph, please, of the church? What? The color scheme is. The color they would the color they’d like to do is bronze. Bronze. Bronze. So that will match the storefront that is already that’s been approved and existing in the building.

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So they want it. They want to bring the whole building together to look monolithic and finish. Well. It would be a bronze color. It will be a bronze color, yes. Not stone white. No, not stone white. This was this was a standard detail coming from Marvin as a quote.

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So what’s what’s before us to approve or not approve then is not the stone white exterior. Look at the top of the screen right there. But I think the elevations are calling out bronze. Bronze. Architectural. It’s to match the storefront that’s already in the building. Yeah.

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Now, this is only for the Education building, a two story education mode, the sanctuary, those build those windows are going to be restored. Those are going to be repainted, repaired. And as they are today, they don’t want to touch the sanctuary building, which is the 19. Point different things. What are you looking. For in the windows will be, um, replaced.

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They’re going to be custom windows to fit the size of the opening. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Project. And we don’t really need to dwell much on economics, but I’m going to I’m going to bring this up. So I see you’ve got basically for these new windows to install the new windows that are proposed here.

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It’s about almost 350,000. But you did have a quote for the 178,000 to restore what’s there. So can you talk to me about that decision, Steve? Three quotes I talked to. Uh, contractors that are on the historic website. We’ve received three quotes. I picked the, you know, from a comparison of CTC.

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Um, um, they’re not fixing all the sashes. They’re not fixing the sides and the tops of the windows around where the water is coming in. They’re only focusing on the sash, not the not the window frames that are damaged and need to be repaired. They’re talking about they’re quoted half the sills.

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I don’t think that’s right. So they’re going to come in with a new generation wood. They’re not coming in with any of the old woods. So they’re not going to fix what is part of the other problems. Fixing one side of the window. We got three other sides. They’re not addressing.

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So that’s the reason for we have another quote in here for 700 plus. Yeah. That was they’re taking more of the consideration of the overall window. But again they’re not touching the three sides of the windows. They’re focusing on the sills. Yeah yeah.

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That’s the reason for requesting coming here for a replacement window. It’s you know, the church has a little has money. Now I like I said, I work with churches, a lot of churches don’t have any money. Yeah. It didn’t have the money going back decades because those saints that gave you this building as it is didn’t do the maintenance right.

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And we have one, um, in the right up here. Um, Ralph George, he works for Eliot’s, right. He’s been the one doing the work on this building for years and finishing fishing. I talked to him about doing it.

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He said it’s going to be a time of material, and I can’t tell you what that cost is. Sure, you’re better off replacing them. Yeah, yeah. And one of the photographs on page 13, I mean, it shows like they’re these windows are in. there rough, really, really, really bad shape. They haven’t they don’t they just, they don’t. Not it’s not a 1900 window. It’s 1948, 1948.

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That’s on the cusp of when of this this construction detail and how these windows were made was starting to, to go downhill. So that that’s the request before you is, um, understanding. Yeah.

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I live in church world and, you know, we’re we try to make churches to be sustainable and maintenance is a big thing, right? Yes it is. Yeah. And you’ve got 93 of these things. So it’s, um, it’s quite a tall order, especially if you’re relying on volunteers or whatever the case may be. Um, any other questions? Or for the applicant? Anyone know? Okay. Thank you, thank you.

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And is there anyone in in attendance who would like to speak in favor? Just thumbs up. Anyone speak against. Okay. Um, well, close the evidentiary hearing and move to commissioner deliberation. So I think the the question is about this, I guess, really, the only there may be others, but the big question I see is about the materiality of, of the new windows.

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So to their point, Grace Methodist, I don’t recall that. I don’t know if I was at that meeting in 2024. I think. You said they are doing a beautiful renovation. And, uh, and then and then the New Hanover High School next door. I don’t think those are wood windows. I think those are, uh.

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They are, but they’re not in the historic district. It stops there, starts. Oh, the local district stops at it. At that. Your Hanover is right there. But this is not a this building is not a was is a 194848 which is non-contributing. Plus Ralph George is my painter and he babies my windows like crazy.

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If he says they’re bad shape, they’re in bad shape because I mean, he. Yeah he babies. Well, we barely need evidence anymore anyway, so yeah. Point taken, but I don’t think it’s even necessary. From what I’m understanding. I have a little bit of a conflict.

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I mean, I, I wouldn’t vote against it because I can understand the magnitude of 93 windows and preserving, um, the whole purpose here. But it’s hard when you require homeowners who have difficulty economically to put wood windows in and not have fiberglass or anything else. So there’s a little bit of a conflict there that I feel.

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But as I said, I wouldn’t necessarily vote against this because of that. But I think, you know, we’re we’re harsh on some people and make them do wood no matter what. And then we, we make exceptions and and I’m not.

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Saying so, Joan, if this was in the back, if this didn’t have the if this was not seen from the street, which it is seen from Princess Street and the corner, if it was not seen from the street, would people be allowed to do this? I’m sorry. Would you be allowed to put in? Well, this is this is not 33, 60 degree.

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This is only from what seen by the right of way on this property. Correct? Uh, I think so, yes. So is this being seen from the street? Yes. So that’s the relevant point. Yeah.

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It’s just what I’m saying is that it’s, it’s, you know, we come down harsh on some situations and, and and not on others. And I know we’re allowed to do that, but it’s still it becomes a little bit difficult sometimes. For me personally, I can’t help but distinguish a little bit between a house that might have 14 windows and a commercial or an institutional building. It has 93.

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I mean, that has to be taken into consideration, right? I’m I’m saying it, I am and I’m not saying I’m voting against it, but I just wanted to express that. Okay. Um, any other thoughts on the materiality? Anyone else want to comment or someone make.

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A so on the door and windows standards and number 11 it says replacement materials should match the historic material in size, shape, design, texture, scale, color and where possible, material and where possible I think is where we come in. So yeah. Yeah, yeah. Again, to my point, like I think I hold personally, I hold buildings like this.

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The I have 93 windows and they’re institutional or commercial in nature. It’s it to me it feels different from your typical residential property. That doesn’t have this quantity of windows 48. And that’s, that’s that’s a good point. It’s 1948 and it’s not contributing to. The building. For me, it’s the fact that it’s non-contributing.

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Right? That for me it makes it that that pushes it into more of the, you know, easier to ease. Um, you know, I guess more logical. Um, okay. I also really just want to, um, I just want to give kudos to the folks who came out tonight to, in support of the of this preservation effort.

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I think one of the the things that the pastor said that was really important is that they want this building to be around for future generations. And I think that’s kind of what it’s all about. I’m impressed that there’s been so much thought given to it.

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And for me, you know, I think, um, it’s our job being to, to safeguard this. It’s it’s reassuring to see that other folks are thinking that way, too. So certainly. And not to have a one fits. All right. Yes. Yeah. And they’ve shown us evidence that they looked. There was a lot of evidence. Oh, the project that’s underway right now.

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And I think when it comes down to it and windows are supposed to be windows are supposed to protect the building and there’s a point where, yeah, you’re going to start. Yeah. I think it’s understood. We all just wish that there would have been, you know, from the get go, more maintenance done.

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It’s just it’s hard it’s hard for some institutions to do that. Yeah. But if they had put storm windows. Or storms a long time ago. Yeah, sure. A long. Time ago. That’s right. Yep. Last lesson learned. Yeah. Um, so I’d like to make a motion.

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Um, I moved to approve the request for window replacement with a change of material for property located at 1403 Market Street. This request is consistent with the Wilmington design standards for historic districts and landmarks. Based on the evidence provided, including the application and all attachments, testimony presented during the evidentiary hearing and the staff report. Second. Second. All in favor? Aye, aye. Any opposed? I passed unanimously.

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Thank you. Be well. Um. And, uh, agenda item number ten 613 Orange Street. Ben.. 613. If I may. Um, because this was a deviation from the standards.

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Um, can we lay the basis? And from what I heard in the discussion, I believe that it may be the fact that it is a commercial building with, I believe, 93 windows and the fact that it is non-contributing.

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So can we make that part of the findings for that motion? Two of us said I said that, and I think Beth said that, but I don’t know if it was the the will of everyone else that that was part of their thought of approving this. Do you want two of us to affirm that it had to do with commercial or institutional? I would like it clarified whether that is the basis for deviation in the motion and whether that is approved. Um. Yes, that it it is a deviation.

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And, um, it was a non building built in 1948 and it is a commercial building with 93 windows, which is why deviates from the, the standards. Institutional in this case. Yeah. In this case. Uh, and there was a we.

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So second the who who was the second by the way did someone do we get to that point? Okay, Steven, uh, and all in favor? We all approved. Okay, so we all good with that, Gina? That’s correct. Yes. Thank you. Uh, 613 Orange Street. Ben. Yeah. I’m sorry. Can I ask a question? Yeah.

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What? I’m sorry. I’m not following what the deviation is because I thought she just read. That, uh, because of the change. So there’s a. You know, what we’re supposed to go by now is the fact that if anybody wants to replace a wood window with a wood window, we just.

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We have to allow that. Yeah. No matter what. For the most part. But we allowed them to use a fiberglass window for a replacement, not a wood window. So Gina was asking us to clarify that there was a deviation for a certain number of reasons. It was commercial.

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So it may not have been your reason, but it was mine. And 1 or 2 other people mentioned it. And it’s a non it’s non-contributing built because it was built in 1948 instead of 1900. So how far does that determination go to establish a new precedent. Precedent. Right. I don’t know. Any commercial building.

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I don’t think we. Oh, yeah. There is no precedent. So that was a deviation from the guidelines for good cause. And we established the cause. And that will be included as part of the order. That does not establish a precedent that everything going forward would have good cause to deviate from the guidelines.

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So it was on this, on this item. It would certainly be an argument, though, for anybody coming forward with a factually similar situation to say you did it in this case. 194893, windows, commercial church. So anybody who. Has asked us to state that. Yeah. So anybody who has 75 year old windows.

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If you listen to the pastor, he was already making that argument for the other Methodist church that we approved. That’s right. So, you know, one will lead to the next and so forth and so on. But it is what it is. Yeah.

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I mean, I think Joan made a good point that some people who are economically challenged are asked to step up. And, um, we need to, um. Be fair. Be fair. Yes. Yeah. And I also think because it was a church, that was another reason, not because it was commercial, because if we had a commercial building that was a for profit making money, and

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they had 93 minutos, I don’t know if you would approve of changing the materials. You may want to change the deviation rules. Comments from commercial to the church for that church for the purpose. Yeah. Which would certainly limit that. That had a lot to do with. The that’s a part of it. Also that could be noted. Okay.

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Case number ten is a request to remove the chimney from the house at 613 Orange Street, as described in the historic district boundary expansion and additional documentation report dated 2003.

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The House at 613 Orange Street was constructed circa 1990, is a and is a one and a half story cottage with a standing seam metal roof and gable trusses. The house is set back from the street. The house is a non-contributing resource to the historic district. Residential and revisions to all facades of the building and the site are subject to design review in this district.

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The subject property is located on the north side of Orange Street, three houses west of its intersection with South seventh Street. The applicant proposes demolishing the existing chimney down to the roofline to prevent ongoing water infiltration, damaging the structure. Here’s photos of the chimney.

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The chimney opening will then be sealed in a metal roofing panel matching the existing roofing material as closely as possible will be installed. No other alterations to the roof or roof line are proposed as a result of this project. Examples of the water damage resulting from leaks around the chimney can be seen in these three photos.

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Staff notes that the design of the house was initially approved by the HPC in 1988, and did not originally include a chimney. The chimney proposed for removal was approved by the HPC in 1989 to be included in the design of the house. At that time. If approved, staff recommends the following conditions.

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The proposed standing seam metal roofing shall be flat, channeled with no striations matching the existing roofing material. All materials removed from the house shall be disposed of properly. All construction shall comply with code and law, and any changes to the project shall be reviewed. Staff would like to enter the presentation and report into the record of tonight’s proceedings. Are there any questions? Nope. Uh, anyone? No.

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No, no, thank you for pointing out about the dates of the, uh, construction and the fact that it was approved originally without without a chimney. And they came back and asked for one, but then I think that was doomed to fail from day one. Yeah. What a weird choice.

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Yeah, like, just try, right? Yeah. Um, yeah. So, uh. Nobody’s here. I thought maybe that was the applicant, but I guess they were not. Um. Nope. Carol, do you have anything to say? Okay. Carol is not the applicant. Um, so, uh, the applicant is not here to answer questions or make any clarifications.

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So anyone want to speak in favor or against? Seeing none, move to Commissioner. Deliberation on this item. You know, when I saw this, I shivered because I’m managing condos and townhomes, many built in the 1980s. The question always was, do these chimneys leak? The answer always was yes. Yeah. I mean.

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Yeah, they say they didn’t have any skylights. Yeah. Know. Yeah. And I thought, no I’ve got no problem if they want to remove it and fill in. The roof. So Stephen why don’t you make a motion there. Okay. I’ll make a motion there. Let’s see. Where are we? I move to approve with conditions.

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Request of chimney removal for the property located at 613 Orange Street. This request is consistent with the Wilmington design standards of historic districts and landmarks. Based on the evidence provided, including the application, all attachments, testimony presented during the evidentiary hearing, and the staff reports conditions one through four. Second. Second.

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All in favor? Aye, aye. That passed unanimously. Um. Okay. That concludes those items. And then other business items from commission. I just want to point out thank you, Carol, for the email that you sent to, I think all of us yesterday about the city of Wilmington’s resilient Coastal Communities

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Program survey. Uh, that’s on the city’s website. So you sent that email? Unfortunately, I it took some effort to toggle around the city of Wilmington’s website. It’s not anywhere obvious on the city’s website. To go find that survey.

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Like, you have to kind of, like, be intuitive and dig around for it and find it. But if you go to City Wilmington’s website, I think you look under, uh, programs and efforts or something like that, and you can finally toggle to get to that.

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But it’s a it’s a good survey to go and take for, for city residents that want to be a part of, uh, helping the city to understand where initiatives, initiatives, what this should go, how to build a more resilient Wilmington. So and when did that when was that deadline? So it’s the survey period ends sometime soon. Do you know that, Brian, by chance, the the. August 21st. Okay. So another almost.

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Almost I do not but we can get that information out of the commission. And maybe I mean if the city like if there was like so Wilmington NC gov you go there and there’s nothing about it. Like there’s nothing obvious about surveys or new stuff or anything like that.

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So I don’t know if it’s if someone’s able to get things like that a little more prominent on the city. We will have we will have those conversations internally and see what we can do to correct that. But I just want to point that out, that that’s something that folks should go and check out and be a part of that survey.

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It was pretty interesting to see what some of the agenda or the, the, the motions were, or what the, the pursuit was, and then different ways that you could select and, and um, rank one through three on, on how to get to those goals. Um, any other.

266
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Yes, yes I had hopefully there’s some pictures that can be shown. Hello. Over there. Um, yeah, I took some photo. Here we go. Thank you. Uh, these are all basically on fifth Street. Remember I brought up before when we were talking about materials, uh, that they do have fiber cement boards that are dimensionally identical to the the wood. Sticker. Pardon? Thicker.

267
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Or is that what you mean, they’re thicker? Yeah. I’m not talking about, you know, like Hardie Plank. I’m talking about fiber cement products that look like a one by six board. Yeah. And you know, look at these houses.

268
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I mean, my God, even with a fiber cement side, I don’t know if the fire department could save the house next door, but it certainly wouldn’t hurt. And also tonight with this window discussion, we had a discussion about, what, 2 or 3 meetings ago. But what does wood mean? And would does not necessarily mean.

269
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That’s why I asked the question about continuous fiber or composite and fiber cement obviously doesn’t burn very well. So when you have houses in such close proximity, you know, allowing that I don’t think is necessarily a bad thing. Consider pine, because I can tell you pine burns beautifully.

270
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And when it comes to the cost, one of the things when I manage properties, when we had rot and we replaced materials, of course, wasn’t a historic district. We endeavored to use every trick in the book fiber cement, sometimes PVC, definitely pressure treated, but everything we could do because the points on a building that rot are the points that will rot again, certain points where the water

271
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collects, etc. so when homeowners are asking for composite materials, if they are, I guess now they’re wood, even if they’re not totally wood or they want fiber cement, which I imagine would be cheaper than double treated pine. I bought 1600ft of that and I know it’s awful expensive.

272
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Um, you know, I think the commission really needs to think about alternate materials, both for fire and for long term maintenance and cost. That’s just what I want. We’ve we’ve talked about this, right, about updating our materials. Yeah we have yeah. Yeah I’m just pushing for it. That’s all. Here. Oh okay. Yeah. Yeah I don’t want to be forgotten.

273
01:34:58,100 --> 01:35:12,400
So you’re just showing this picture because of the proximity of these homes to each other? Not necessarily. That one is clad in fiber cement. Well, these are, these are both. These are these are wood. Both of them. Correct.

274
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If someone has a like a my house, most of the boards that I had to replace, believe it or not, weren’t on the north side. They were on the south side because that’s where the sun of the day heats them, dries them out, then they get moist. That’s probably 80% of the rot in my house is where the sun hits, not the shadow side.

275
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And frankly, if I could have replaced that whole side with fiber cement board, that would have been done. I’d be dead. My ancestors would, or everybody would be dead. And that would still be there. Whereas now, you know, look, I got the best double treated pressure, treated whatever pine I could get.

276
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But probably in, you know, whatever 15, 20 years. It’s not old growth. You know, it’s going to start having problems again. And boards are going to have to replace. So it’s a matter of economics. And also I really thought a lot about this after the Greystone Fire.

277
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You know, I don’t want to see a firestorm take out 20 houses in a row down fifth Street or fourth Street. And I’m not saying it would stop it, but all I know is fiber cement board doesn’t burn like pine.

278
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And this insistence upon wood, when it appears what we’re really doing at this point is we are not really caring about the material that much as the look of the property. So if you can have a home that has a identical look to the house that was built in, like mine, 1896, once the boards are painted, why are we insisting to put a flammable material back that will rot in another 1520 years or whatever? I’m

279
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just saying this is 2026, not 1926. We might start thinking about this more and more and more to replace these materials. That’s my point. Okay. Okay. I’m done. We can. Go home. Um, items from staff. Any items from staff? I have a question. So I have a question. Um, Mr.

280
01:37:14,170 --> 01:37:34,830
Sulky, what materials are you contemplating? Would it be just siding? Roofing, everything? Um, just in. I know you keep mentioning the fiber cement. So are you. I just. Want I’m not saying get rid of asphalt shingles or. I mean, obviously, if I lived in California, I’d probably have a metal roof. Knowing what goes on out there.

281
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But I’m just saying that, you know, many times we seemed like, oh, my God, it’s gotta be wood, must be wood. That’s the only historic thing. Woodward Wood, wood, I’m saying when there are options, we should look at those options. Like with these windows, like tonight. Now, God bless these new windows.

282
01:37:52,300 --> 01:38:12,730
They’re wood. Amen. But I’d almost been happier if it was one of those composite materials which we now seem to deem this is wood, because the wood in there someplace. But try to get that stuff to rot now it will burn. But you know, it’s the rod issue and it’s the fire issue.

283
01:38:12,730 --> 01:38:31,130
So I’m just saying more and more it is 2026. We have a lot better stuff these days than they did. You know, these houses are built the way they’re built of wood because hello, my house. In 1896, there was very little fiber cement board on the market or composite. Okay. So that was the only choice.

284
01:38:31,130 --> 01:38:49,130
Well, we have choices. And again, it seems when we look at these properties, we are looking more and more at the look. Do the you know, it’s historic looking. And we want to preserve that. Well the tourist is not going to know what that siding board is made out of.

285
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If it’s painted it’s going to look identical, if it is pine or if it is fibrous cement. That’s what I’m getting at. But the maintenance and the fire issues, you know. Yeah. So anything you know now and I’m not saying we do this my god. But now you see hawked on TV like crazy.

286
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They only have these metal roofs that don’t look like standing seam or you know, five V they are whatever. They look like shingles. Now, I’m not saying we do that, but then maybe in 5 or 6 years somebody will have one that will look like a beautiful slate roof or whatever.

287
01:39:23,000 --> 01:39:46,370
May they have it already? I don’t know, but, you know, maybe we just need to, I think, have a more open mindedness to more modern materials for maintenance and for fire. That’s all I’m pointing out. And as long as again, the look is the same, I don’t want to have houses put, you know, James Hardie plank on.

288
01:39:46,370 --> 01:40:00,470
That’s what what is that stuff? A 5/16 of an inch thick. Thank you. Bingo. Good thing you know these things. And it waves like you put it on a wall that doesn’t have sheathing. It waves, it moves in a big joints and often looks on.

289
01:40:00,470 --> 01:40:19,170
When you put that on an old building, like walk around Southport. Not to knock Southport cute little historic district, but it’s. Yeah, that Hardy is all over downtown Southport and they’re all the windows are vinyl. Yeah. Vinyl. No, that stuff is friendly siding. It waves that you all the time. Yeah. No springs out and they fell apart. Um.

290
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I had really nice windows in this condo built in 1970, and they just literally. These cameras, they just. I mean, they. Yeah, just awful. Yeah. Miss Wilson. Okay. I’m sorry. Were there other, other items from staff besides the clarification from Steven? Um. No, but I would just like to ask Mr.

291
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Silk, did you read the secretary, the National Park Service memo or bulletin board on alternate materials for wood inciting? So that kind. Of falls into light. They’re going in that direction. Yeah. Yeah. I read it and, well, that’s why I’m really pushing it here. I mean, I want us to remember that and think about it.

292
01:41:01,930 --> 01:41:25,530
And I’m sure probably next month, in the month after that, somebody will waltz in here with a window or something, you know? And again, consistency. Okay. So we just approved windows tonight that they’re not pure wood okay. Well God bless. They’re going to last. So you know but.

293
01:41:25,530 --> 01:41:44,430
But fire enters vents like it enters through bath exhaust vents. It enters through, uh soffit vents. It enters through chimneys. It enters through porch roofs, through porch floors, through handrails. Like you really to ensure you’re not going to have fire able to spread into district as easily. It siding isn’t going to cut it.

294
01:41:44,430 --> 01:42:04,630
Well, no, but there’s a difference between open flame and radiant heat. I’ve seen homes blistered and set on fire by radiant heat. The flame never got there, but the heat did. And all I’m saying is a fiber cement board would give the fire department at least a fighting chance to spray it down with a hose. I’m not saying it’s fireproof.

295
01:42:04,630 --> 01:42:18,200
No, but I’m just saying, why give the fire more food? You know, let’s not make it easy for the fire, because I. That’s one of the things I think about every time I walk down fourth or fifth or those streets, and I look at these homes, I’m thinking, oh

296
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God, I could just see it now, you know, one house, two houses, three houses, like dominoes. And I’m not saying, you know, this could take 5000 years, but I’m just saying, let’s really consider alternate materials with the caveat that when the finished product is done, it looks like what it looked like before. That’s all. Uh.

297
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And then last call, any other items from staff? Anyone else, or we can.. No, I mean, we provided the the the the council presentation on the wayfinding signs. Um, there’s a, um, there’s going to be ten signs installed and there’s a big push here because we’re using Arpa funds.

298
01:43:05,270 --> 01:43:20,370
I just wanted to let y’all know there’ll be ten signs as part of phase one. There will be a phase two that will expand to more signs across the downtown area, parking and whatnot. So just be on the lookout for that phase two. Beth had a comment I didn’t.

299
01:43:20,370 --> 01:43:38,270
Sorry, I was on my way to Canada, but you had a comment about colors or something like that, and that follow up email about these signs, or. Linda spoke with me about it. The decision was made. Um, but I really appreciated her feedback on on how they came to that, how they came to that decision.

300
01:43:38,270 --> 01:43:51,170
So and just note that Quince and Henderson are about to get work. I think the city is about to put out a bid. And in that presentation that they made to City council, originally, it showed a sign there on Henderson Alley off of Front Street, just to make sure that Shirley, they’re talking to each other and knocking up a sign there and then it’s gonna

301
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have to come down because they’re going to renovate those two alleys. That that would be a phase two or even phase three project. Okay. The initial ten signs are going to be along the corridors as you enter downtown and then along the Riverwalk. Okay. Thank you. Brian. Yes. Tell me to make a motion to adjourn.

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I so motion. A second. All in favor? Aye aye