[15:19] Okay. [15:23] So, call the planning commission to [15:25] order. It's uh 7:15. [15:30] Uh present are all commission members. [15:34] Sever Johnson, Wayne Franson, John [15:37] Stout, and Lori Thomas. [15:40] Um [15:42] we will Sever would you offer invocation [15:44] for us? Lori, would you lead us in the [15:47] pledge? [15:54] Oh kindly, gracious eternal heavenly [15:56] father, we're grateful for this [15:59] opportunity to meet together as a [16:00] planning commission this evening. Bless [16:03] us in our deliberations that we may have [16:06] thy to guide us to that which will be [16:09] best for our community. We are grateful [16:13] for all the blessings that thou has [16:14] bestow upon us. Keep us safe in this [16:18] area and we pray for these things in the [16:20] name of thy son Jesus Christ. Amen. [16:23] Thank you. [16:29] » I aliance to the flag of the United [16:33] States of America and to the republic [16:37] for which it stands. One nation under [16:40] God, indivisible [16:43] with liberty and justice for all. [16:50] Thank you both. [16:53] Um, [16:54] open the time for any public comment. [16:58] Uh, [17:01] any hands raised? None here? [17:04] None there. Thanks, Brian. [17:08] Very good. We will close public comment [17:10] then and go to our business partner [17:15] hearing. [17:17] >> Thank you. [17:19] Yep. [17:20] Um we're [17:23] one item for public hearing tonight is [17:26] for conditional use application [17:29] uh from uh three bridges and I think [17:33] there's a copy of it here. I believe I [17:36] mentioned it to you in a previous uh a [17:39] previous meeting just in in passing. [17:42] What this is is um they want to have a a [17:48] uh gravel operation [17:51] uh down here with their [17:55] We're just We're a little late in [17:57] starting, Jody. [17:58] >> Okay, Brian, you didn't know. [18:00] >> Oh, okay. [18:01] >> Thanks. [18:02] >> Okay. Um they want to uh start moving [18:07] this pile down here by the mailboxes [18:11] and do a gravel sorting and um [18:20] that they will use then for their roads. [18:23] Um [18:25] we felt that they needed needed to have [18:27] a conditional use permit uh to do that. [18:30] They're they're fine with it. They [18:32] haven't started yet, obviously. So, [18:36] that's what that's about. And we've [18:39] published a a notice about the public [18:41] hearing for anybody who wanted to make [18:44] comments about it. We don't we didn't [18:46] receive any outside of the meeting. Uh [18:50] their plans are to move the gravel in in [18:54] the process move the gravel to further [18:57] to the east. So eventually the this big [19:02] pile of gravel down there will be moved [19:04] as part of this operation. [19:06] >> Are they screening it? Is that what [19:08] they're doing? [19:08] >> They are. Yeah. [19:10] >> They've agreed to put uh uh water trucks [19:13] down there also to lessen the dust that [19:18] be coming from that. Um so we've we've [19:25] looked at it city. We don't we don't [19:27] have any objections to them. [19:30] >> And this seems to say that part of it is [19:33] onsite rock crushing. [19:36] And so I guess they're going to crush [19:39] the bigger ones and then separate the [19:41] dirt from the from the ground. [19:45] >> Yeah. [19:49] » So one of the biggest things is we [19:52] required them to have a sweat plan. So [19:55] that will keep the area clean and u [19:59] keep keep inspections regular [20:02] inspections of it and make sure that [20:05] they're in compliance with their SWIP [20:07] plan. [20:09] Um their SWIP plan was like [20:13] 40 pages. [20:15] >> They had to [20:19] where they have that stored. Is that in Woodland Hills or is it [20:24] >> It is. We own that piece of property [20:27] there is in our city limits. [20:29] >> They won't be crushing in Woodland [20:30] Hills, right? It'll be in Salem. Are [20:32] they moving them back over that way? [20:34] >> They are further to the east. But [20:36] they'll be they'll be [20:38] >> there's going to be picking this up and [20:40] then taking it to the [20:41] >> No, they're going to they're [20:45] going to have one in our area as well. [20:47] >> Yes. [20:47] >> Yeah. [20:49] And so that's why they're keeping a [20:50] water truck there. And and some of these [20:53] crushers have, I understand, water in [20:56] them as part of their operation. And I [20:58] don't know if that will happen with them [21:00] or not, but we'll keep our eye on the on [21:03] the dust dust control. [21:06] So [21:07] it'll probably be hard to separate with [21:10] the work they're going to be doing on [21:12] wooden hills. [21:13] >> Say nobody's going to get down there [21:14] anyway. [21:15] >> You know, [21:16] >> it looks like pure rocks. I don't know. [21:18] They need to separate. [21:20] >> Yeah. [21:24] >> So, any questions about that? [21:28] >> Now, let me uh I'll take a motion on [21:33] recommending these. Our conditional use [21:35] permits go to the city council. And so, [21:39] um I'll need to take a recommendation to [21:42] them from the planning commission. So, [21:45] if anyone wants to make a motion, I'll [21:48] make a motion to approve the conditional [21:51] use permit. [21:51] >> Okay. [21:52] >> For three bridges is crushing operation. [21:55] I'll second that. [21:56] >> Okay. [22:01] All in favor? [22:04] >> Any oppose? [22:06] Very well. We'll move that [22:10] to the city council. make them aware and [22:12] they can discuss it further. [22:16] Um [22:20] the um let's go to item six then [22:25] approval of March 18, 2026 planning [22:29] commission meeting minutes. I didn't get [22:31] any u comments back on it and sending [22:35] the minutes. [22:36] >> What was it? [22:38] Well, you said [22:39] >> there were still a journment, [22:41] >> but we did [22:42] >> we did have an adjournment. [22:45] >> Yeah. [22:45] >> You know, and we voted on that, [22:47] >> but it led on the minutes. [22:48] >> On the minutes. Okay. I'll I'll get back [22:52] in there and attach that. [23:00] Okay. With that one correction, then [23:02] I'll take a motion on the minutes for [23:04] March 6 18th. [23:07] I'll make a motion to approve the March [23:09] 18th minutes with the correction of [23:12] including the adjournment. [23:14] >> Okay. Is there a second to that? [23:16] >> Second. [23:17] >> All right. All in favor? [23:20] >> I. Any opposed? [23:23] >> Very well. Thank you. I will [23:26] make that change. [23:29] Uh the next item is item eight and [23:34] um [23:36] there's a um [23:42] there's a request being made by Summit [23:43] Creek. Bucky is here tonight to talk to [23:46] us about it. [23:48] um to amend their [23:52] um [23:54] plat their final plat [23:57] and to actually add two lots [24:02] to it [24:04] and there those lots are where those [24:06] arrows are shown on there. Bucky, let me [24:11] turn time over to you and you can [24:12] explain [24:14] >> explain that. Uh, I've I've given them a [24:16] copy of the final plant, so I don't know [24:19] to show where it is. I I don't know if [24:21] we need to do that. [24:22] >> Yeah, if you've got it, that that's [24:24] fine. You should see two two lots. [24:26] There's one that's 237 [24:29] and then there's one that's 247. Is that the arrows with supporting it? [24:35] >> Yeah. So on our original plat [24:39] we plan to [24:44] um to include 237 in our next phase [24:49] which we plan to develop, you know, in [24:51] the next year or two. Um because we [24:54] thought that it was going to be easier [24:57] to access that lot to build a home on [25:01] one of the future roads that's behind [25:03] those lots in our master plan. [25:06] Now that we've cut that road in um and [25:09] we're looking at the grades, [25:12] it looks like um it looks like we can [25:15] access that lot and and build a a a [25:19] house easily from the road that we've [25:21] cut in. [25:23] And so [25:24] >> so that would be on Eagle Nest then the [25:26] continuation of Eagle Nest. Yeah. Down [25:28] around. Okay. [25:29] >> Exactly. So that would be considered the [25:30] frontage and [25:33] um uh so that's that's why we're [25:37] requesting an amendment for that lot. [25:41] the 247. [25:44] Um, [25:46] after we uh cut the road in and graded [25:53] that the those lots were where 221 and [25:58] 20 and 222 are, we we realized there's a [26:03] lot more usable land up there than than [26:06] we had thought prior. [26:08] Um, [26:10] we [26:12] I was hoping we are doing a little bit [26:14] of a little bit of analysis right now [26:17] with our builder [26:19] to make sure the proper house can be [26:22] built in that build pad that that we're [26:25] showing on on 247. I thought we would [26:28] have that done by now. Um, [26:31] unfortunately, we we don't quite have it [26:33] done yet. So, I'm I guess I'm here [26:37] tonight asking for an amendment for 237 [26:41] to come into the plat. [26:44] And I think we're a little uncertain [26:47] about 247 right now. I think we'll know [26:50] for sure by your meeting in May. and [26:53] we'd like to come back and revisit the [26:56] discussion on that lot in May if that [27:00] uh this if the um planning commission's [27:03] open to that. [27:05] >> What if you're if the engineering work [27:08] shows that that's going to be [27:10] problematic? What what are your plans [27:15] >> going back to what's the the [27:16] >> to a single lot there with one [27:20] >> 127 and well they just take out [27:25] >> 247 would that become part of 221 then [27:29] or part of 27 [27:31] >> 222 it was part of 222 [27:34] >> 222 [27:34] >> yeah so and 222 was just a really really [27:37] big lot [27:38] >> and so we took part of that and turn and [27:42] turn it into two lots 222 and 247. [27:45] >> So if that becomes problematic in your [27:47] further review, you just go back to that [27:50] being a single lot and not not divide it [27:53] off. That would be your plan. [27:55] >> Just go back to just excluding 247 from the plat. And it's not an it's not [28:02] a question of engineering. It's it's [28:05] >> topography issues with [28:07] >> it's just the size of home. [28:09] >> It's a lot. [28:10] >> Yeah. Well, we know like a comfortably [28:13] what you're what you're showing right [28:14] there, like a 4,000 foot home can be [28:17] built, but we anticipate somebody might [28:20] want to build a bigger house than 4,000 [28:24] square ft on that lot. And and so that's [28:27] kind of the analysis that's going on [28:28] right now with our builder to see, you [28:31] know, see if if a five or 6,000 foot [28:35] home or something like that can be built [28:38] uh on that lot. So, and we don't want it to feel too [28:43] squished, you know, with with a couple [28:46] larger homes that are 5,000 6,000 square [28:49] ft, you know, we want it to we want [28:51] everyone to feel like there's plenty of [28:52] elbow room up there. So, that's we're [28:56] just we're just double-checking [28:57] ourselves, [28:58] >> okay? [28:59] >> If that makes sense. [29:00] >> Okay. So, [29:04] >> um, would we really have to bring it [29:06] back if they decided to paint it as 221? [29:13] » I guess not. [29:14] >> It's already [29:16] together, right? Isn't it? [29:18] >> I would just need to come back if we [29:20] decide we want to request the 247. [29:26] Yeah, because the way it was originally [29:28] approved, [29:30] it was combined those that lot there. So [29:33] that it would just you drop the [29:38] idea of trying to make a separate lot [29:40] out of it. [29:40] >> Exactly. [29:42] >> But we still need to tonight we need to [29:45] approve 230 237. [29:49] It was dropped off. It was it was [29:52] originally not put on [29:55] the like you said the the original [29:58] plaque that was reviewed by our [30:00] engineers. [30:01] >> Mhm. [30:02] >> It wasn't on there and then you added it [30:06] and we approved that final plaque with [30:09] the addition [30:11] of that lot, but then you took it [30:15] >> off [30:15] >> took it off. [30:16] >> Yeah, [30:18] I know. We do need to add We do need an [30:20] amend then to put that lot back on. [30:24] >> Yeah. So, if you're on that street [30:25] looking at 237, it's it's downhill [30:29] >> and it's the lots to the side of it. The [30:31] grades are fine. This one's in a little [30:33] bit steeper little ravine. And so, we [30:36] were from the plan before the the road [30:39] was cut in, we were really skeptical if you could build a driveway onto the [30:45] build pad. And but now that it's all the [30:48] roads cut in and all the grates are are [30:51] there, we feel like we can comfortably [30:54] be able to uh uh driveway and keep it at [30:58] like 8% to get down to the build pad. [31:01] So, [31:03] >> okay. [31:05] Any questions any of you have for Bucky on that? [31:12] Um, [31:13] there's a couple of things that I want [31:16] having to do with a general plan. The [31:20] fees haven't been paid yet for the [31:22] amendment. So, that needs to be need the [31:27] email that we were just going Yeah, they went out today. So, they should be [31:31] hitting the city's account today or [31:33] tomorrow. [31:34] >> All right. Very good. Um, [31:38] we still need to review the water shares [31:41] on on [31:42] >> the 23 set. Yeah. [31:44] >> On these lots to make sure that [31:46] >> that I've deed it enough. [31:48] >> Yeah. That there's enough there. So, we [31:51] need to uh I'm going to suggest to the [31:54] planning commission that we [32:01] the amendment gets approved with [32:03] conditions and that's one of them [32:06] >> where we're required to have needed [32:09] water shares on the on the final plan [32:13] approval. So that's that's one thing [32:16] that [32:17] or the fees sounds like they're [32:19] addressed. Um, another thing that [32:24] we need to get we need to do in concert [32:26] with you, Bucky, is um [32:31] change the a part of that [32:36] public road now to private road. [32:40] >> Yeah. the same way as we did before with [32:43] that other [32:44] >> and we have to have a public hearing to [32:47] do that and I think I'm talking to Jody [32:50] and I believe we can do that in our [32:54] May [32:55] >> meeting. [32:57] >> Okay. uh with I think there's enough [32:58] time between now and then uh to publish [33:02] that and any public input so that we can [33:06] it it's a process that that we have to go [33:11] through and do which we've agreed to do [33:13] already [33:15] >> and we just need to do it and working in [33:18] concert with you to get that done. [33:20] >> Yeah, I've got the paperwork. I just I [33:23] just met with our attorney yesterday. [33:25] He's he's drafting the paperwork right [33:27] now. [33:27] >> Okay. [33:28] >> So So it should be done anytime soon. [33:31] >> Okay. If you can get it to us as soon as [33:33] possible cuz we'll we'll probably use [33:35] that [33:36] to is as part of the public hearing in [33:41] information that goes out there [33:43] >> be specific to what [33:45] >> that is. And we there's some individuals [33:49] too that need to be notified. Uh, I [33:52] think they're kind of at the at the [33:54] bottom of the culde-sac there, but [33:57] they're within 300 ft of of this part [34:00] that will be private. And so, we need to [34:04] specifically inform them. [34:08] We don't need their permission, but we [34:09] need to inform them of the public here [34:12] so they can comment if they choose to do [34:14] that. [34:15] >> Yeah. Okay. [34:16] >> So, [34:17] >> sounds great. Those were the areas I [34:25] have. Have Have you guys looked closely [34:28] at that turn around that's down that [34:32] you're putting in place down there? [34:34] >> Yeah. [34:37] >> Are you comfortable with that in its [34:39] size and being sufficient? [34:44] » Isn't that something Ted's got to go [34:46] deal with? He does the fire. [34:48] >> He does. We've looked we've we've looked [34:50] at it already when the the final plaque, [34:54] but and we got I got talking to with [34:57] Jody about it today and we're probably [35:00] going to use some of that to push snow [35:03] into [35:04] as we come down there. We can't push it [35:07] through your through your gates there. [35:09] And so if we do that, is that going to [35:13] limit [35:15] >> the turnaround? limit the turnaround [35:16] area and um [35:20] so [35:20] >> I mean I think I think we're on paper it looks like it [35:28] looks it looks plenty big enough. It [35:31] looks like we can push even snow onto [35:34] the shoulders past past the curbing of [35:37] the of the hammerhead. I think what [35:40] we've experienced with doing a lot of [35:42] snow removal up here is we'll find [35:45] somewhere to put the snow. [35:47] We always do. Everyone does. [35:50] >> Yeah. [35:51] >> So, we have those big snowblower [35:53] attachments on on the end of our skid [35:55] steers that throw the snow way over the [35:58] curb. And so, [36:00] >> Okay. [36:01] >> So, we're not overly worried about it, [36:02] but [36:03] >> Well, we may take another another look [36:05] at it and just kind of satisfy [36:07] ourselves, too, that we're good. Yeah, [36:09] >> with that. So, [36:09] >> yeah, we did go through it with Ted and [36:11] the city engineer. I mean, our engineer [36:13] and the city engineer and Ted all met [36:16] and it meets it meets city codes and [36:19] >> I and I noticed that that he did say [36:21] that it it was code compliant [36:24] >> the size and so forth there. So, [36:27] >> yeah, we want to make sure that, you [36:30] know, [36:32] I mean, our thinking is that there's [36:33] going to be shoulders beyond the curb, [36:35] which is great place to push snow to as [36:38] well. Yeah. [36:39] >> So, [36:40] >> okay. [36:43] So, those are the only So, we've got the public roads leading [36:50] to Summit Creek [36:52] um review of water shares [36:56] and fees paid. [37:00] So, if one of you want to make an [37:03] approval of adding at this time the lot [37:06] 237 [37:09] um to the final plat [37:13] uh conditions that those three areas get [37:18] addressed to comply with our city code [37:21] and word it however you'd like. [37:25] I'll make a motion to approve the [37:28] amended plat for Summit Creek for lot [37:30] 237. [37:34] Um [37:36] review of water shares and make sure the [37:39] fees are paid. [37:40] >> Fees are paid and the public road [37:42] >> public roaded deed to the city. [37:44] >> The Summit Creek [37:46] >> to Summit Creek. [37:47] >> Yeah, the private road. [37:48] >> The private road. You said public road. [37:50] So yes. [37:50] >> Well, it is public. It has been it is [37:52] public. public and it is [37:54] >> so it needs to be deed to to Summit [37:57] Creek. [37:57] >> So it's to be deed to Summit Creek. [37:59] >> Yeah. For their private. Okay. [38:01] >> I'll second a motion. [38:02] >> Okay. [38:04] All in favor of that? [38:06] >> I. Any opposed? [38:09] >> Okay. Let me make a note here. [38:23] And just I don't know if it's helpful or [38:25] gives you any comfort or anything, but [38:27] our development agreement does require [38:30] us to work through the paperwork of [38:33] taking that portion of the road, turning [38:36] it private, and deeding it to the HOA. [38:39] >> Yeah. [38:39] >> So, the county won't let the plaque get [38:42] recorded without that being done [38:44] properly. So [38:47] >> that makes sense. [38:48] >> So [38:48] >> okay and that's it's yeah [38:53] >> two areas code compliance and and that [38:56] specifically the the development [38:59] agreement was amended to um address that [39:03] when when those issues were first [39:07] presented [39:08] >> to us. So, [39:09] >> yeah, [39:11] >> if you if you can stay in touch with us [39:14] or with me on the paperwork when your [39:17] attorney gets ready for that and and [39:20] that'll help us know a little bit more [39:21] when we need to get the publication in [39:24] so that [39:25] >> Perfect. [39:27] >> Yeah, I'm hoping early next week I'll [39:29] have the first draft of that paperwork. [39:32] >> Okay. So, um, are you gonna are you [39:35] going to check on the water rights or is [39:38] that something you want me to check on? [39:39] >> Yeah, if you check on them and see where you stand. [39:42] >> Yeah, I will. I've got a I've got a [39:44] tally. I've got a spreadsheet of a [39:45] tally, so [39:46] >> Okay. [39:46] >> Yeah, I can do that. So, [39:49] >> okay. Um, [39:53] » very well. [39:54] >> Well, thank you. I appreciate [39:56] >> Okay. appreciate the consideration and [39:58] we'll we'll get these conditions met and and [40:04] move on. [40:05] >> Very good. [40:06] >> Thanks for coming down, Becky. [40:08] >> Yeah, thank you. [40:09] >> Beautiful lots in there. [40:11] >> Oh, thanks. Yeah, it's a good spot. So, [40:13] it's hard to find a bad spot in Hills, [40:15] though. [40:18] >> Every time I drive down here for work, [40:20] I'm like, "Oh, it's so hard to It's so [40:22] hard to leave. [40:24] Got to get those kids a little older so [40:25] I can move in. [40:27] >> Yeah. Yeah. [40:28] >> They're all in the trenches in high [40:30] school and friends and you know how that [40:34] goes. [40:34] >> Yeah. Those trenches are strong. [40:36] >> Yeah. [40:37] >> So, [40:38] >> got a son who's still mad at me for when [40:40] he moved out of California back to [40:42] Virginia. [40:43] >> Oh, yeah. [40:43] >> Yeah. Junior in high school. And [40:48] >> so, [40:49] >> sometimes you got to go. [40:50] >> Yeah. Yeah. [40:51] >> Makes them mad, but they adapt. Yeah, [40:54] >> he didn't marry her. So, [41:01] » I'd like to think you married somebody [41:02] better. And I think you did. So, [41:06] >> anything else you need from me? [41:07] >> No, I think that takes care of it. [41:09] >> All right. Thank you. Appreciate the [41:10] time. Have a good night. [41:12] >> You bet. You, too. [41:14] Um [41:19] any I don't have any other items for me. that I I'm [41:28] and asked Jody to include that all the [41:30] time just in case there's some issues or [41:33] things that we need to discuss and [41:36] things and I don't know are there any of [41:40] that you [41:41] we're let me let me share one thing [41:44] Friday we're having a [41:46] variance hearing [41:49] on on two requests that have been made [41:52] one is from a homeowner up on um [41:57] what's the one just below the the [41:59] culde-sac below deep forest? [42:02] >> Is it Bridger? [42:04] >> Three. Yeah, [42:04] >> Bridger Circle. [42:05] >> Yeah. [42:06] >> Okay. Um [42:08] his name is Aaron Lloyd [42:12] and um [42:18] the council approved a variance which by [42:23] ordinance they can to his driveway [42:27] slope. It exceeded [42:30] um [42:31] >> 15%. [42:32] >> Yeah. [42:34] And so they approved that [42:37] in order to get that slope, he had to [42:41] get closer to the property line than 20 [42:44] ft [42:46] and the council can't approve that. [42:49] So, um, he's he's written a variance [42:54] request [42:55] and, uh, there will be the our this [42:58] hearing officer. We've used her once or [43:02] twice in the past. She's an attorney. [43:04] She will come here Friday and hear that [43:09] request. [43:11] And also, [43:13] uh, he made his covert too small. [43:19] So that's part of the request as well. [43:24] So that's one request. Uh there will be [43:27] a second hearing [43:29] of uh an individual over in Summit [43:31] Creek. Uh his name is Gayen Briggs. [43:37] >> Okay. [43:38] >> Um he severs in their ward. He wants to [43:42] build a garage, [43:46] another garage [43:48] off the back corner of his house for a [43:51] boat and a trailer. [43:55] when the house was built as a spec home [43:59] and he and he bought it and it was [44:03] condition he kind Bucky told him that he [44:05] could put a garage in [44:11] with the HOA it's okay but it it's too [44:15] close to property lines for the size [44:20] that he needs to make it so he's going [44:23] to request a variance [44:25] uh in order to put this garage in off [44:29] the corner of his house. [44:34] » The issue is [44:37] he can fit accessory building [44:41] standards, [44:44] but it's going to be closer than 20 ft [44:46] to his house. So, it can't be accessory [44:50] building standards. it has to be the [44:53] house standards. So [44:56] that's what he's [44:58] got to meet. And so I don't know I don't [45:02] know which way it's going to go but so [45:05] that'll just for your information [45:06] that'll be on Friday [45:10] and we're going to do that. [45:13] So [45:16] um really no other updates. [45:20] Um [45:22] the um [45:25] one thing I can't I don't remember if I [45:27] shared with you or not the Fujas have um [45:32] filed [45:33] uh against their [45:36] against Adam's engineer [45:42] and so that's [45:45] going to court. [45:48] Um, [45:50] so I don't know where that will end up. [45:52] That's not anything to do with the city. [45:54] I mean, it directly we obviously had a [45:57] lot of interaction with her engineer [45:59] during the build, but um it's a separate [46:03] suit that they filed against uh their [46:06] Adam's engineer. So, [46:09] >> did the judge approve the extension? [46:12] >> Hasn't said anything about that yet. [46:14] >> Okay. [46:16] So, [46:18] we're still waiting. [46:22] Uh, take a motion to dismiss. [46:24] >> I'll make a motion to dismiss. [46:27] >> I'll second it. [46:30] >> Okay. All in favor? [46:32] >> I [46:35] Okay, that's [46:38] just [46:40] >> Ryan, I hope at Lake Pal. [46:44] No, I'm in Long Beach. [46:52] » Thanks for being with us tonight, Brian. [46:54] >> Of course. I appreciate uh I was a [46:56] little nervous. That's why Jody came [46:58] down because I texted you and you [46:59] weren't responding. I'm like, I don't [47:00] know if I should wait. So, [47:03] >> we were actually waiting for um [47:07] >> called and said, [47:10] >> just decided to wait for him to show up [47:12] and