[5:02] Good evening. Um my name is Kate Tumi.
I'm chair of the public safety
[5:06] committee. Uh to my uh right is um
councelor Tony Economo. Uh Vice
[5:12] Chairperson Morris Bergman is delayed a
little bit. He'll be here shortly, but
[5:16] we're going to move get moving. Um we're
being clerked by um the assistant clerk
[5:22] of the city council uh AJ Fodle. Um we
are joined uh at the desk uh here at
[5:29] commissioner of inspection services
Nicholas and Tanavika. Did I say that
[5:35] right this time?
I'm sorry. It was deputy city clerk. I
[5:39] didn't mean to say give me a different
title. I mean AJ. Um
[5:43] and so um we're going to start with
virtual attendee call-in information.
[5:50] Thank you. Pursuant to chapter 20 of the
acts of 2021, in order to ensure active
[5:55] public engagement, city worester
currently allows for both inerson and
[5:58] remote participation at all city council
and standing committee meetings. To
[6:02] partake in the meeting, you may attend
the meeting in person within the meeting
[6:06] location. Follow the below below link to
join Zoom or dial the direct line as
[6:11] indicated. If you join a Zoom meeting by
dialing in with the phone number, you
[6:14] can raise your hand by dialing star9.
Public safety committee zoom link is
[6:18] https
colon4wisterma.zoomv.comj161-5547889.
[6:28] Uh public safety committee zoom phone
number is 16468287666.
[6:35] Public safety committee zoom access code
is 161-5547889.
[6:43] Um, I'd like to do uh uh ask uh the
deputy city clerk to do a roll call.
[6:49] » Councilors Bergman, Economo
>> here,
[6:52] » and chairperson councelor Tumi
>> here. Um to approval of the minutes, a
[6:56] order that the city council standing
committee of public safety hereby
[6:59] approves the minutes of public safety
committee meeting on June 23rd, 2026.
[7:04] » So moved.
>> All those in favor post, so voted. Um,
[7:09] and then we're going to go to 3A
miscellaneous items. Order of Councelor
[7:14] Economo, uh, Councelor Jose Rivera,
Councelor Tumi, Council Rosen, Council
[7:19] Blada. Request standing committee on
public safety hold a discussion to
[7:23] review the city's ordinance relative to
excessive and unreasonable noise.
[7:27] Further requests said discussion include
feasibility of amending the noise
[7:30] ordinance to allow the creation of a
special noise variance application for
[7:34] churches, festivals, organizations
holding certain events. see attached for
[7:38] the western noise ordinance as well as
other municipalities processes that was
[7:43] in council July 21st 2026.
Um commissioner, do you want to start on
[7:50] that?
[7:58] » Just to to review, I understand that
there's been um several questions about
[8:04] the enforcement of the noise ordinance
over the last several months. Um we've
[8:08] been reviewing the different items that
we have and the enforcability of the
[8:13] different statutes uh throughout the
ordinance and then also um what the
[8:18] authority is for each department when we
have uh when we come upon upon the
[8:23] complaints. Mhm.
>> Um for the the easiest explanation of
[8:29] how noise ordinances or noise complaints
are handled, um the the two sentence
[8:34] answer is um the police handle people
complaints and ISD handles um things
[8:42] complaints. And the way to best describe
that is if you have a loud party or um
[8:48] there's loud music coming from some
place or uh loud commotion and yelling
[8:55] um the police would respond to that. if
there is a large a loud HVAC unit or
[9:02] there's a tonal sound or a buzzing sound
that's coming out of a building or there
[9:08] may be a violation of a license, that's
where ISD would get involved. Um, one of
[9:14] the one of the bigger um, areas that
we've seen the complaints come in is uh,
[9:22] noise complaints about establishments
and the way that we approach those. Um,
[9:27] the reason why um, one of the questions
was is how come we don't go out and take
[9:33] noise meter readings at establishments
when they when there are loud uh, noise
[9:38] complaints? The reason for that is is
that the loud noise is um for lack of a
[9:43] better term instantaneous. It may be
continuous for um several minutes or or
[9:50] uh a little bit of time, but for the
purposes of using a noise meter, um we
[9:57] need to have that established for
several hours in the area in order to
[10:02] properly ascertain whether or not a
complaint is uh valid. Um we also need
[10:08] to have a base level or a um ambient
level uh for the start of the noise.
[10:16] That is something that through um
through our department and the resources
[10:20] that we have, we do not have a
continuous ambient noise level um
[10:26] registered throughout the city. So if we
are looking into complaints, the first
[10:30] thing that would happen would be that um
one of the uh air and water inspectors
[10:37] would go out and set up our meters to
establish an ambient level. Then once we
[10:43] are able to establish an ambient noise
level, then we would come back and take
[10:48] measurements at the time of incident to
determine if something is higher or
[10:52] lower. But those are typically measured
over the course of several hours so that
[10:57] we can get the range of noise in order
to determine its source and what the uh
[11:02] potential solution for fixes. Um going
back I know that there have been several
[11:09] complaints uh about establishments and
the way that we have approached those.
[11:14] The reason why we have approached those
from a licensing and occupancy
[11:20] standpoint is because those are the
areas that we have the most authority
[11:25] and most enforcement on. Um affecting
the noise itself is an instantaneous
[11:32] um measure and is difficult to enforce
at the the specific time from uh the
[11:38] inspectional services um perspective. So
when we do see items like that, we try
[11:44] other avenues that um will affect the
business um
[11:49] more than just the the instantaneous
noise. So we look at it from do they
[11:54] have the proper licenses to do this?
Have they been to the licensing
[11:58] commission and have an entertainment
license? Do they have the proper
[12:02] occupancy for the type of um event
that's being held there? If they do not
[12:07] have that, then we will say that they
don't have that under their occupancy
[12:11] laws. So, there are different ways that
we uh enforce the noise ordinance and it
[12:17] really depends on the situation um which
one of our enforcement abilities is best
[12:22] for that approach.
>> Okay. So, um I have a question for you
[12:26] if you don't mind. um when we're aware
of problem properties um after one or
[12:32] two calls I would think that we would
maybe go out and establish a
[12:38] you know a basic um what did you call it
u
[12:43] » ambient
>> yep so
[12:47] so that we'd have that established
because if if there's a pattern that
[12:50] there's this continuously repeating
issue I I would think that we'd want to
[12:55] have that established so that Good.
>> So, with to you counselor, um again with
[13:02] a with an establishment though where
it's produced through music or speakers
[13:07] or or an item like that,
>> the the ambient um level and then a
[13:12] noise meter
>> is not going to provide the the
[13:18] instantaneous violation. We know that
the violation is there. That's that's
[13:22] the violation as stated through the the
noise ordinance for loud music that be
[13:28] that can be heard from the street. So a
meter reading isn't something that is
[13:32] going to
change the fact that yes that that is a
[13:36] noise complaint. It's how we're able to
enforce the noise complaint um from that
[13:42] standpoint on. So if it is an
establishment the way that we enforce
[13:46] the enforce the the noises is by the
other avenues.
[13:50] » Right. Okay.
>> Yeah.
[13:52] » To the council
>> through the chair to the commissioner.
[13:56] So, just take me through the process at
the time of licensing.
[14:00] » Mhm.
>> I'm a venue. I want to have an event.
[14:05] There's going to be a band playing or
DJ. Um, how's that play out at the
[14:10] license um commission meeting?
>> Okay. So to you counselor, through the
[14:16] chair, um there are two scenarios that
we're looking at uh when we're going in
[14:21] front of the licensing commission for an
event of that nature. One is for a
[14:25] permanent establishment that wants to
have bands and entertainment. So at that
[14:30] point if it is a permanent establishment
um we've gone through uh the rest of the
[14:36] inspectional services protocol along
with the health department the food
[14:40] inspectors and the building inspectors
to establish um a use for the uh
[14:46] building an occupancy for the space and
that it has met all of the safety
[14:52] requirements from the different building
codes and fire codes. Once that's done,
[14:57] um there is an application made to the
licensing commission. At the licensing
[15:01] commission, the establishment will state
what they want that entertainment
[15:05] license for. If it will be for TVs, if
it will be for DJs or live musics, at
[15:12] which point they will tell the
commission when they want their
[15:16] operating hours to be. If it's within
our permitted operating hours, the
[15:21] commission usually grants the requested
hours. If it is for extended hours,
[15:26] there is a conversation. But uh usually
the commission will limit the uh hours
[15:32] of operation within our ordinance hours
so that uh all I believe all um
[15:38] entertainment needs to be shut down a
half hour before closing.
[15:42] » And what would those be?
>> Uh depending on the establishments,
[15:46] establishments can be open till 2 am. So
there are some establishments that uh
[15:51] clo that stop their entertainment
between 1 and 1:30. Um there are other
[15:55] establishments that close at 12. So they
would stop their entertainment um at
[15:59] 11:30.
>> So through the if I may through the
[16:02] chair, and don't mean to interrupt you,
but I'm just going to cut to the chase.
[16:06] » So it's a church,
they're having an event. What are their
[16:11] hours of operation? What what is
generally allowed
[16:16] through the chair? um what is allowed
for a religious um building or it's a a
[16:26] wedding birthday party uh christening.
>> So if it's a if it is a church without a
[16:32] venue space then it is not um it's not a
use or the building has not been uh
[16:39] classified as a use for that. Um, if we
are looking at the church themselves,
[16:44] it's I believe that would be an A1 use.
It's not an an A2 use is the one that
[16:50] serves drink and food and has
entertainment. Those have different
[16:54] safety criteria than other A uses. A
uses are assembly uses. So those would
[17:00] be areas like churches, synagogues,
gyms, um, bars, and other and other
[17:06] items. So that's that is where if we
were going for a church going to
[17:10] licensing commission they would have to
ask for a special one-day entertainment
[17:16] license in order to have the event there
that their space is not permitted for.
[17:22] At that point uh going forward at the
licensing commission it would be
[17:26] advertised the abutters would be known
uh that there was a request made for a
[17:31] one-day license and then the licensing
commission would hear um the applicants
[17:37] as well as any abutters that would have
any concerns about the one day license
[17:43] being issued.
>> So on that
[17:46] » go ahead
>> if I may through the chair. So in that
[17:49] in that discussion in that granting of
the license is
[17:55] is um
say a gym we want to use it for a
[18:01] wedding reception u a celebration of
some sort
[18:07] you issue the one day license or the one
the one time license. Does that come
[18:12] with hours of operation?
Does that come with allowable
[18:18] sound? Like it's like are you saying to
are you saying to the the applicant,
[18:23] look, um you can run up to I don't even
know. I don't I couldn't even tell you
[18:27] what's an allowable sound. So um and
maybe you can explain what that
[18:34] allowable sound is. Um
and at midnight or 11 a.m. 11:00 p.m.
[18:42] it's done. it's got to be shut down
because I know in my experiences at some
[18:47] of the festivals that I'm familiar with,
um it's pretty much clockwork.
[18:52] » You know, whether the license was issued
till midnight, I can tell you at 11:30
[18:59] it's shutting down and security and
police on site are escorting people out,
[19:05] right? There's no
um I haven't seen a mincing of words at
[19:10] that at all. But in other locations, I
see a lot of self- freedom.
[19:16] Um, and it affects the neighbors. So,
that's what I'm trying to get that's
[19:21] what I'm trying to get to the bottom of.
>> No. Uh, through the chair, um, it
[19:27] becomes
a want on the side of the establishment
[19:31] as well, um, to control their patrons
and the events that are occurring there.
[19:38] Um, as far as the entertainment license,
there is also a request on that
[19:44] application for amplified music. So,
that would be where the potential for
[19:50] the loud noise would be coming from if
that is the case. Um, yes, they can
[19:55] request a a permit for amplified music
that allows for loud music to be played.
[20:02] Um, I believe that there are some
conditions that say uh certain things
[20:08] can't be heard by, you know, by more
than 50 feet at the edge of a certain
[20:12] property line in those areas for for the
limits of that. Um, and yes, hours of
[20:18] the event are conditioned on the one-day
entertainment amplified um music.
[20:24] » So those, if I may, I'm sorry.
>> Go ahead.
[20:27] » Um, through the chair. So those hours of
operation are the hours of operation. So
[20:34] again, say it was from 6:00 p.m. to
midnight. Um,
[20:39] from from what I'm hearing, at 11:30,
they need to shut it down and by
[20:43] midnight everybody needs to be gone. If
those were the conditions put in on the
[20:49] license, yes, that would be through the
chair. Yes. So if they go past midnight,
[20:54] say till 1:00 p.m. 1:00 a.m.
through the chair, then that would be a
[20:59] that would be a violation. Okay.
>> So how is that handled?
[21:04] If we through the chair, if we are made
aware of the violation, um then people
[21:11] if if we are made aware of the violation
and the time to go out and confirm that
[21:16] it is occurring, then uh depending on
the responding group, um the the
[21:24] instructions will be to shut down and
and a fine will be issued. Yeah,
[21:28] » I I have a question and then
>> I know you're in a in a role here, but I
[21:34] I did was So, your inspectors would go
out at 1:00 in the morning
[21:40] » through the chair. No. Uh the the ISD
inspectors are not responding to noise
[21:44] complaints at 1 one in the morning. The
only typically the only complaints that
[21:49] we're responding to at night are fires
and uh displacements.
[21:53] » Okay.
Thank you.
[21:55] » If I may,
>> you may
[21:57] » through the chair. So, is the noise
ordinance in place then till midnight
[22:01] or is it is there no is there no noise
ordinance period if they're issued that
[22:07] permit to have their event through the
chair? No, the noise ordinance is always
[22:12] in effect. They just need to follow the
rules of their their permit that they
[22:18] receive. um that permit allows for
certain exemptions to the noise
[22:23] ordinance once uh the the licensing
commission issues um that that license.
[22:30] So if through the chair, if I may,
>> yes, you may. Um,
[22:35] so if an establishment is
violating their permit,
[22:43] music continues to go on, it's affecting
the neighborhood, the neighborhood's
[22:48] call is to probably 911 or maybe the
non-emergency number and police would be
[22:55] the determining factor at that point. uh
through the chair uh that yes the the
[23:00] responding department would be the
determining factor at that time
[23:04] » and from the police department's point
of view I'm sorry through the chair the
[23:07] police department's point of view
um all of this is triaged right their
[23:12] calls are I'm sure triaged from
importance and this may just keep
[23:17] getting bumped down and bumped down
bumped down bumped down as other motor
[23:22] vehicle accident shooting are going to
take precedence through the chair I am
[23:28] not familiar with the the police
officers response protocols. I do not
[23:33] want to answer for them.
>> Okay, that's fine.
[23:35] » Chief, maybe the chief can respond to
that.
[23:42] » Thank you, Chief.
>> Thanks, Chief.
[23:49] Through the chair of council, that's
correct. Everything is triaged. So if
[23:52] you have a more um emergency like call
that's going to take sometimes those
[23:58] loud or uh noisy calls that come in
could be delayed several hours.
[24:04] » Yeah.
>> And it happens you know that's change of
[24:07] shift. Right. Sure.
>> Most of the calls that happen at 12 1:00
[24:10] in the morning we are changing shifts
and
[24:13] » officers have to go to those more
pressing calls.
[24:17] » So if I may
>> certainly
[24:19] » you can cut me off at any time. I'm
sorry.
[24:22] Um,
so in a situation like that, the police
[24:25] get called, they'll get there when they
can get there. They arrive on scene.
[24:31] um either it's it's done
or it's continuing.
[24:39] But it sounds to me that we don't have
the ability to
[24:45] um test maybe is if that's the right
word or find out if they are violating
[24:51] the noise ordinance. We know they're
violating the time ordinance. They could
[24:55] be violating the noise ordinance, but we
don't Am I safe to assume we don't have
[25:00] noise meters? You know, I'm sure the
police aren't carrying noise meters
[25:04] around with them
through the council. That's correct. We
[25:08] do not have noise meters.
>> So, when a when an entity continues to
[25:12] constantly violate
[25:16] their
license to operate their event,
[25:23] how is that? How is that um information
sent forth to the license commission? So
[25:30] when they come back again for another
license to have that event
[25:36] um it's either further scrutinized or
it's just denied.
[25:41] I don't know through the share of
council if it was a police related call
[25:46] and it's a problem property. so many
calls within so much period of time.
[25:52] That information is related to the
license commission as far as the liquor
[25:57] license if there is one. If there's no
liquor license, I believe that falls
[26:02] towards inspectional services
>> through the chair. Um we we do notify
[26:07] the council. Um uh our the licensing
commission um liaison is in the ISD
[26:14] department. So we we coordinate with
them and then if there is uh an issue
[26:19] with an establishment I go to the
licensing commission meetings and and
[26:23] speak on behalf of ISD if we have
concerns
[26:28] if I may.
>> Yeah. One more.
[26:29] » Is is parking part of their licensing
through the chair? Uh no. So they can
[26:37] park anywhere they want. They can park
in their spa their building's property.
[26:43] they're free to park it on a butter's
property and so forth. So through the
[26:48] chair, no, that's not that's not
acceptable. They just they don't have
[26:53] the ability to grant permission for
people to park anywhere. That doesn't
[26:57] give people permission to park wherever
they want. The licensing commission just
[27:01] doesn't have the ability to give people
permission to park places. So, regarding
[27:09] that, if they're parking on a public
street, there's no
[27:14] even though it might be in front of
somebody's house, there's no way to stop
[27:17] that because it's a public street.
Correct.
[27:20] » Through the chair. Well, that would
depend on the parking signs in that
[27:24] area. If there were any parking
restrictions at that point, it would be
[27:27] a mobility and traffic um violation.
>> So, I I I guess my big concern is
[27:34] striking a balance, right? If there's
anything, you got to have a balance. If
[27:38] there's no balance, somebody's not
having a good time, right? And and the
[27:42] area,
>> you know, unfortunately, I'm dealing
[27:45] with two houses of worship that seem to
be the biggest problems I've been
[27:52] dealing with in the last eight months.
And um in some cases, I feel okay, maybe
[28:00] a little leniency should be given to
them. But
[28:05] the more I'm hearing it myself and
seeing it, uh, I'm starting to believe
[28:10] the latter and it's becoming a problem.
And it's becoming a problem in an area
[28:15] where people are trying to have quiet
enjoyment of their own property. And,
[28:21] you know, I could see a one-off festival
as you see it throughout the city. It's
[28:27] not every month. It's not every week,
but there are instances in some some of
[28:31] these organizations where it's
weekly, monthly, multiple nights a week
[28:36] and it's getting out of control and
um
[28:42] I don't feel we have the teeth in our
ordinance to handle it. Um and with
[28:49] that, Madame Chair, through you maybe a
chairman's order is to significantly
[28:55] raise
>> um the violation fee. So it does hurt
[29:03] uh within the standards of the law that
we
[29:07] » Yeah. Yeah. Right. You know, I think
it's got to be looked at because I saw
[29:10] in here was $50 and if that's the fee,
it's like, "Yeah, whatever. I'll give
[29:14] you the $50. I'm going to have a great
time."
[29:16] » So, I I want to say uh and I know
councelor Bergman has uh been here for a
[29:21] while as well that this is not just this
year, not it was in your term before the
[29:27] last.
>> Yes, I understand two terms before that.
[29:31] So, it's been an ongoing issue. Um, and
it's something that I think that the
[29:37] neighborhoods really have been dealing
with a lot. And so, I think, um, this is
[29:41] a good first step to um, increase the
the fine. Um
[29:46] » because even and if I may through the
chair even with that too if there's a
[29:51] problem property then I think it's now I
think it's it falls upon us to find what
[29:58] the ambient noise level is
>> you know and maybe incrementally find
[30:03] that out you know from 20T 30t 40T 50
100 ft so we have a baseline and then I
[30:11] feel also that at some point
somebody on shift in the police
[30:17] department should be tasked with a sound
whatever you I don't know what you call
[30:23] them
>> sound meter
[30:24] » sound meter
um and I understand that that's not
[30:28] always the case where you're going to be
there at the moment things are happening
[30:32] um but we do have a permit
of hours of operation and
[30:39] from what I'm seeing and hearing there's
violations there and again I'm not
[30:44] trying
I get it cuz my church they, you know,
[30:48] they have a huge festival every other
year and as do many, but it's for three
[30:52] days and like I said, I I feel they at
the end of the day when 11:30 comes,
[30:59] they're literally clearing the place
out. The music stops, they're clearing
[31:02] the place out. The police, the security
on site are ushering people out the
[31:07] door. And I think that should be the way
um throughout. And on top of that, while
[31:15] I'm on my soap box, is it required to
have Worcester police present
[31:23] at any event of that nature?
Through the to the chair. Um that's a
[31:31] that's a determination of the licensing
commission and the people that are
[31:35] there. As far as the conditions for
large events, we always uh request a
[31:40] police detail or make sure that the
police are going to be there along with
[31:44] fire department members and inspectional
services members depending on the event.
[31:49] Um regarding some of these items, um we
have taken in we've heard the concerns.
[31:55] We have taken into consideration a lot
of the items that are there. One of the
[32:00] items that we were deficient on in
inspectional services was the way that
[32:05] we were documenting these complaints.
So, we've made some changes on the way
[32:10] that we go about doing the documentation
and speaking with the people and then
[32:14] also making notices to those uh to those
establishments so that we have a better
[32:19] record so that when we move forward with
strengthened enforcement, there is a a
[32:24] track line and then a better case if we
end up taking it to the full extent
[32:28] where we would go to court to to remove
a license or add additional sanctions.
[32:34] And again, I'm not I appreciate all that
you guys do. You can only do what you
[32:39] can do, right? And I appreciate that.
And I think it's incumbent upon the
[32:42] council, too, to be part of the solution
as well. Um,
[32:48] and I and again, I'm it pulls at me in
both directions because I understand
[32:54] the church wanting to use its properties
for its purposes, right? But when it
[33:00] when it contin continuously becomes
a problem in any neighborhood,
[33:08] um I think that's when we need to step
in and really take a look at it. And I
[33:13] would like to think that the license
commission is aware of every violation
[33:18] an entity would have if it's been
habitual for years because then I think
[33:25] it's a it comes upon the license
commission to be a little more stern in
[33:30] their dealings.
[33:33] » I'll leave it at that.
>> Okay.
[33:35] » Thank you. Um before we go on um AJ uh
we'll have a chairman's order uh
[33:40] requesting um the law department to
identify um how uh
[33:47] how high we can uh significantly raise
the fee the fine for noise ordinance.
[33:55] » Thank you Madam Chair. Absolutely. And
uh would you like to that to include a
[33:58] draft ordinance once that's determined?
>> Yes, please.
[34:01] » Thank you.
>> Thank you. All right. Do you have any if
[34:04] you don't mind? Nope.
>> Madam Chair, let the law department
[34:07] answer that, but just for purposes
to know how far or how little we can go
[34:13] with the incentive or disincentive, I
think it's $300. So, but we'll wait for
[34:18] the law department to come back and give
us that answer. I have a kind of a
[34:22] similar take, Councelor Conamu. Um, but
I have a couple questions and maybe
[34:28] slightly variant on on what's being
asked. It's been a while, but somebody
[34:34] applies through the chair for a license
for this one-day event. Um, let's get
[34:41] scheduled for the lodge through the
license commission. Is that correct?
[34:44] » Yes, through the chair. Yes.
>> And where do notices go? Who do they go
[34:48] to?
>> Through the chair. Um, I'm depending on
[34:52] the event that goes in, it goes out on
uh on a public notice, but I don't know
[34:57] if it's a full of butters list or if
it's just the Jason properties where it
[35:03] goes to
>> because here's where I'm going with it.
[35:04] Try to cut to the chase on it. Seems to
me that we may have reached the point
[35:09] given the inability and it's not a
criticism, it's reality of being able to
[35:14] monitor every one day license we have
out there that there should be an
[35:18] abutters list and there should be a
hearing. If nobody if everybody's
[35:22] content with the event, then nobody's
going to show up and complain. If people
[35:27] have had a prior history of a bad
experience with the event, they're going
[35:31] to point out the issues that the license
commission has to address with the
[35:36] petitioner. What time are you going to
stop? How do we know you're going to
[35:39] stop? You're going to have a police
officer there on a private detail. Um I
[35:44] I will you pay for a noise monitor so
that you can see if you're violating the
[35:49] noise um ordinance,
so on and so forth. Why not? I don't
[35:54] think it's too much to put the burden on
the applicant. If they're doing nothing
[35:58] wrong and the neighbors are happy,
they're not going to have to do anything
[36:00] more than they already do except for
show up for hearing. If they're creating
[36:05] an event that's creating chaos in the
neighborhood, then they're going to hear
[36:09] it. But that's what we do with almost
every hearing. We invite the neighbors
[36:12] and we tell them, "What's your input?
What's going what's good and what's
[36:16] not." I mean, I I think that in the old
days, maybe we could have gotten away
[36:22] without having that kind of um input
from the neighbors because I think the
[36:27] Well, let me ask you this through the
chair. Do you know um Commissioner has a
[36:31] number of requests gone up or down over
the last few years, exclude CO for
[36:36] requests for these licenses, these
one-day liquor licenses? through the
[36:40] chair. Um, without having the the data
in front of me, just from seeing the
[36:45] number of hearings, I would say that
we've seen an increase
[36:48] » because I would think they've
exponentially gone up
[36:51] » and I don't think we can handle it
anymore without having hearings.
[36:54] » That's just my
>> that's my own opinion
[36:56] » through the chair. The other thing that
we're noticing as well is that it's not
[37:00] just the increase of the number of
events, it's the size of the events. All
[37:04] of the events are starting to grow, too.
Well, that well, that just makes me feel
[37:08] even more um
I don't want to use the word confident,
[37:12] but feel more that the direction we
should be going in is to consider um
[37:18] what is what would a permitting process
look like in the sense of public notice.
[37:22] And I don't know if madam chair's
interest in chairperson's order, but I
[37:26] don't see the burden on doing that
because I think most of these are going
[37:31] to be routine check the box, but the
larger ones may require more work as far
[37:36] as getting the answers to these
questions.
[37:40] » All right, AJ, get that chairman's
order.
[37:45] » Sure thing, Madam Chair. Got it. And by
the way, the last comment is the ones
[37:49] that have had successful events in the
past are probably going to sail through
[37:54] any sort of hearing because everybody
knows they do the right thing. So ones
[37:58] that don't do the right thing are going
to kind of get stopped in their tracks
[38:01] and it's a way I think and maybe the
only way um
[38:06] to stop the bad behavior.
So, um, the increase in number, what is
[38:13] the the for every venue they have a
limit of how many people that they can
[38:18] get it? We we're finding out that
they're they're not um complying with
[38:23] that that they're overstepping the the
numbers
[38:27] » through the chair. That's that's one um
item that we're finding in places.
[38:32] That's not always the the issue um is
over capacity. Uh again, it it could be
[38:39] that they're uh playing amplified music
without having the proper license or
[38:45] they're going too late. So, it's not
it's not always an over capacity, but
[38:48] yes, every place that does have a
license or is a place of assembly has a
[38:54] capacity limit that's provided that they
cannot go over. councelor
[39:00] » through the chair.
At at the beginning of a shift or a day
[39:05] or an evening, are the police notified
of what events are going on in the city?
[39:12] » Is there a is there a list that goes out
to
[39:17] the officers just so they are aware
what's going on and where it's going on
[39:22] at
>> through the chair. Uh we do not have a
[39:26] daily list that goes out. uh to the
police. We do uh coordinate um with our
[39:32] officers on a weekly basis. Um we meet
every Wednesday and go through uh the
[39:37] different events that are going on and
different items that are coming up at
[39:40] the licensing commission, discuss if
there are any issues at that point and
[39:45] then make any determinations or or take
any actions that are necessary.
[39:50] » It's a weekly weekly report. Yeah.
So, so I guess what what really got my
[39:57] goat on this
the entity I'm referencing and I
[40:02] appreciate all that you've done to help
you. I was lied to right to my face and
[40:08] that's right. That's right.
You know, first time meeting
[40:14] lied to right out of the gate and that's
I'm all set. So, you know, my
[40:20] responsibility is not to try to keep I
want to try to keep the peace, but I
[40:26] don't I lose a lot of respect for people
like that. So, that's what I'm I'm going
[40:32] to fight this as far as I can.
[40:37] » Council, do you have another another
question?
[40:39] » I am also
>> So, um, so we've got two chairman
[40:43] reports uh coming back. Is there
anything else that uh you would
[40:47] recommend that we take a look at maybe
get a list of um
[40:54] » yeah you know I don't again I don't know
how it would look like from the police
[40:58] side of things I I actually agree with
council Bergman I think the burden
[41:01] should be put on to the
applicant
[41:06] » absolutely
>> to police
[41:08] but I think I think it's our
responsibility to have the baseline
[41:14] » right we're this is the baseline so
whatever fit you know 50 dB is the
[41:19] number then you know at 20 feet 30 feet
40 50 100 feet this is what I expect to
[41:25] hear for if you go over this you're in
violation if you go past your permit
[41:31] you're in violation and I think all that
should come back to the to the license
[41:36] commission they should have that
information in front of them how many
[41:40] times it happens um has happened and
continues to happen and then I think as
[41:47] council Bergman said whether it's every
abutter and their abutters. I don't know
[41:54] how far the noise level goes or how it
travels in in air. Um I think it might
[42:02] be time to notify the abuters and they
can come down to the license commission
[42:06] or file their their report on what they
experience on a regular basis.
[42:13] So um then we're requesting requesting a
change in the whole policy and having
[42:18] those um problem properties will be
required to uh come down to uh hearing.
[42:25] » Yeah, I will
>> and and in addition to that I want want
[42:28] to ask the chief um because you had
suggested it that the uh officers have a
[42:34] meter in their trunk but I have a
question would that require that would
[42:38] require training. How much time would
that be?
[42:42] through the through the chair for the
ISD staff members to get trained. It
[42:47] took a couple of days. First, it's to
learn how to take the readings, set up
[42:51] the meters, observe, watch it happening.
And then the second day is to learn how
[42:56] to read the results. So, going through
and looking at the different noise
[43:00] results, each of the different pitches
mean different things and different
[43:04] items. So, it's about two days to
>> So, I'm I'm thinking is it possible to
[43:10] instead of having an officer do it?
There's certainly a lot of other things
[43:16] out there. Is it possible to um
reschedule somebody's time so that
[43:21] they're available later in the evening?
Um I'm just thinking about
[43:26] » through the through the chair. I have a
lot of staff that is always interested
[43:30] in overtime. I think that we could
figure something out.
[43:34] So it just I mean it seems to me like
this it's kind of a specialty in
[43:39] » through the chair. Yes, it is. Um it's
it's the the meters are very sensitive
[43:43] as well depending on the the kind we
get. I believe we have one of the more
[43:48] sensitive ones for it. They're
>> they're $6,500 uh device um in order to
[43:54] get the proper tonal readings that we
are looking for when it goes through. So
[43:59] uh yes, we can definitely make those
adjustments.
[44:02] That seems to make more more sense to
me.
[44:05] » Sure. Go ahead.
>> Just just one last thought maybe
[44:09] question. You know, I'm all for the uh
the meter readings and all that, but it
[44:14] seems to me going back to to what we
talked about earlier. There's a process
[44:18] and I don't know exactly what it's going
to look like, if it's going to happen at
[44:21] all, but something along the lines of
what we were talking about the abuters
[44:24] getting notified. The beauty of that to
me is that whether there's a meter that
[44:29] we have uh that we used or when we
weren't able to use because we didn't
[44:33] have it or we got there too late or was
on the border and somebody really wasn't
[44:37] sure how to interpret it. All that
matters, but it matters to me less than
[44:42] how the people in the neighborhood felt
about how it went because invariably,
[44:46] I'm going to guess, you could tell me
I'm all wrong and I'm sure we don't have
[44:49] the numbers, but we probably could get
them. I'm going to guess that the
[44:52] majority of applicants are repeat
applicants. There's an event all the
[44:57] time, once, twice, maybe more times a
year. So, the system, if we were to
[45:02] adopt some sort of hearing, would
regulate itself in some ways without
[45:07] even a noise meter because once the
neighbors got noticed and they say, you
[45:11] know what, last time you guys abused the
privilege of having uh the liquor
[45:17] license because you didn't play the
rules, you were too loud, you went on
[45:20] too long, whatever. So yes, I agree we
need a meter, but uh noise meter,
[45:25] whatever the proper term is. But I also
really would like us all to think about
[45:29] what some sort of process would look
like where the neighborhood input um can
[45:35] really have a major effect because right
now I I'm guessing nobody shows up.
[45:39] Those meetings, by the way, at the
license commission, if I remember,
[45:42] they're during the day um as well.
They're not exactly the time that a lot
[45:47] of people that are working are going to
show up
[45:49] » through through the chair. Yes, they are
from 10 to 12 on the 2nd and fourth
[45:55] Thursday of each month. So, they're
they're a little bit uh not convenient
[46:00] for uh working members, but we do have
the online option if people are able to
[46:05] to remote in if they have concerns. Um,
one item that I do want to bring up is
[46:10] that we are talking about um having the
hearings and people coming in and what
[46:15] we do to to people with licenses if they
violate it. One of the the issues that
[46:21] we've been dealing with though is that
one of the places that has been of the
[46:25] biggest concern hasn't been going for
the licenses and hasn't been getting um
[46:30] the one days or going before the board.
That's why we were having such
[46:34] difficulty in enforcing certain things
and why we took certain tactics because
[46:40] they were not coming in front of the
board in order to get a license for us
[46:43] to put forth these things. We were
getting complaints because they were
[46:47] having these events without going to the
board.
[46:51] » So through the sorry
>> so what's what is the uh
[46:55] » what's the end result for this
>> through the chair that's
[46:58] » this particular entity? Well, through
the chair, that's why we had started the
[47:03] process in order to uh revoke their
certificate of occupancy and uh come in
[47:11] and and add the additional um
enforcement items that we did by
[47:16] declaring the building unsafe for those
type of events and and those items. So,
[47:22] we did take certain actions. We were we
were told that the uh activities were
[47:28] going to stop. We were under the
impression that they had and then we we
[47:34] received some notifications over the
weekend that they had not. So we are
[47:38] going to be looking into some additional
enforcement for that area
[47:42] » such as
>> well we have to determine if it's a a
[47:46] oneoff for this weekend because again
for the last three months we haven't had
[47:50] any complaints. If it was a oneoffer
this weekend and we have the evidence to
[47:55] prove it, they'll be issued a fine and
told, you know, please, you know, don't
[48:00] do it again. If it continues, then we
will take the additional actions that we
[48:05] threatened before up to the removal of
occupancy for that building.
[48:10] council.
[48:15] » I see that as a complete disrespect
of the neighborhood,
[48:21] yourself, and the people that you are
allowing
[48:25] to use your property. Something goes
wrong,
[48:30] who we got major problems. If something
goes wrong in a building like that, and
[48:35] again, I'm not this isn't coming at you
or the or the chief, but just thinking
[48:40] about it, it's like that's a complete
disrespect to all of us. And
[48:46] if the fine is a $50 fine,
send all the fines you want. That's why
[48:51] I asked for that. Um,
>> right.
[48:55] And then I also I I got to think is
when do you just put a chain around the
[49:01] whole place and just lock it up?
>> So through the through the
[49:05] » And it floors me too where it's coming
this is coming from a house of worship
[49:10] not not not
Joe Schmo
[49:14] » down the street. I understand through
the chair that was part of the reason
[49:18] why we went um we used the building code
for enforcement because through the
[49:23] building code I can find up to $1,000
for each violation and that's what we
[49:28] were planning on doing for the for the
continued enforcement was to to go for
[49:32] the higher fines.
>> Um I believe that that does send a
[49:36] message when people are are not
following what they need to do. So I I
[49:41] do try and find the maximum possible and
get them up as high as we can so that we
[49:46] can get the attention that we need to
resolve the situation.
[49:50] » Okay. So can we have um for chairman's
quarter? Can we have a a report on this
[49:58] process step by step? Um
including you know
[50:05] contacting the neighbors and
uh and I think you should also um have
[50:11] identify a list of problem properties
for the past year or two years. Um
[50:17] and I think that would be that would be
helpful too. um
[50:22] and then uh come back with that
proposed. Is that something um AJ is
[50:27] that something that we have to approve
council when they change the policy or
[50:31] is that something that's done
>> with Madam Chair? I think it may make
[50:37] the most sense to get a report on the
policy and then any changes that may be
[50:42] » that could be implemented as a result of
them. I I don't know. It sounds
[50:46] administrative in nature the policy
itself, but Um the ordinance would
[50:51] definitely fall under um city council
authority. For example, if we do
[50:56] increase the fines, um that would be an
ordinance that we would need to update.
[51:01] Um but that would be um the extent that
I can think of off the top of my head
[51:05] right now.
>> Okay. All right.
[51:09] » Yeah, Madam Chair, I think this is a
great place to start. I I also
[51:14] » when that report comes back, we can
bring it back to committee and I, you
[51:17] know, I'd like us to at least take a
look at some other communities and what
[51:21] they're doing with their uh
>> right
[51:23] » permitting process and
>> some best practices.
[51:25] » Yeah.
>> Because I think um it might be time for
[51:28] a change on how we handle it or even log
it into our system
[51:33] um for enforcement.
>> Yeah. Very good. Uh so uh this
[51:41] particular order we can we can uh file
and then we'll have that come back to
[51:47] the committee.
>> All right.
[51:48] » All right. Um all those in favor so
voted. Thank you very much commissioner.
[51:53] I appreciate it.
>> Thank you.
[51:55] » Thank you gentlemen.
>> Thank you commission uh chief for uh
[51:59] popping in on that. Um now we have uh 4A
uh transmitting informationational
[52:05] communication relative to the hospital
guard police department chief
[52:11] » to the chair. So
whenever anybody is in our custody we
[52:17] basically
own that person as far as anything that
[52:22] happens to them. If they're hurt
whatever we have to make sure they
[52:25] receive treatment. So, if you are being
detained in our building, we have to
[52:31] take you to the hospital. In order to do
that, we need to have an officer
[52:36] with the arrestee as they go to the
hospital, they're handcuffed, and if the
[52:43] handcuffs need to come off to be
treated, we do that. So, some incidents
[52:49] they go up there for a relatively short
time, other times they could be up there
[52:53] for days. We try to work with the clerk
magistrate to have them bailed if it is
[52:58] available
um arrest. Sometimes that does not work.
[53:03] So if you look at
[53:07] last year 2025 we spent
we had 733 hospital guards totaling
[53:15] 6,758
hours. So those officers come off the
[53:19] street and they're at the hospital
obviously only paying attention to one
[53:24] thing and that is the arresty. So that
does not help with any type of crime
[53:30] reduction. Same thing for uh 2026
from January to April we had 251
[53:38] for 3,244
hours. So realistically the only way to
[53:45] do something different is to have people
staged on overtime. You can call the
[53:50] problem is the weekends,
>> right?
[53:53] » And
you know, we can only have so many
[53:56] people off.
>> Yep.
[53:58] » During the week and we max maximize what
they can do on the weekends. Everybody
[54:04] wants a weekend off. Unfortunately, we
don't get them. So
[54:09] when you have three or four arrestes at
the hospital now you get approximately
[54:14] 15 to 16 police officers
uh policing a city of 210,000.
[54:22] It's not too good.
>> No, not at all. Um,
[54:26] so
I'm just looking have um, so these
[54:32] individuals when they're in the
emergency room um, they're in a regular
[54:37] they're either in the hall which is
where a lot of people are these days
[54:41] holding um, or they're in a regular
room. There's no secure
[54:46] uh, area.
Would that be helpful if you talked to
[54:52] the hospitals to establish a secure
>> unit
[54:55] » unit?
>> Uh to the chair, the problem is it's not
[54:58] just us.
>> Uh Wisconsin sheriff's department has to
[55:02] go to hospital. Other
>> agencies outside of Wister Hass. So I
[55:06] don't know how they could secure a
location just for arrestes.
[55:11] » So as you said, usually they're in the
hallway.
[55:14] » Very rarely are they in a room unless
they're being admitted
[55:17] » for several days. Okay. Um, is there is
is there any other way that you could
[55:25] think of? I I think I've I don't know.
Uh,
[55:32] than what we're doing. Is there anything
any other departments doing that's
[55:36] ameliating the situation or
to the chair? We can't really
[55:43] put us up against other departments.
We're the second largest police
[55:46] department in New England. So
we are trying to do things through
[55:51] contract negotiations as far as hours
>> um that's still out there where
[55:58] different hours that the officers work.
That would be one solution but we have
[56:03] to wait until that
>> comes to fruition. We can't do anything
[56:06] with it now.
>> Sometimes if I may.
[56:09] » Yep. Sure.
>> So each through the chair if to the
[56:15] chief if
If a root officer is on his way to the
[56:20] hospital with a patient
[56:25] and then another call comes in, that
root officer also
[56:31] is with that person. So there's two
officers with two different people.
[56:36] Correct. For security through the chair
of the counselor. The person under
[56:40] arrest will be going by wagon.
>> Yep. and the officer is called to leave
[56:45] his or her route to go up to the
hospital.
[56:48] » Okay?
>> So now you have two officers in route.
[56:52] If another call comes in for another
prisoner going up, then you have another
[56:56] officer coming up.
>> So realistically,
[56:59] » we've I think it was this week I get I
get a thing every eight hours on what's
[57:03] going on. And
>> yeah,
[57:04] » we uh I think we had four or five on
Sunday.
[57:08] » So what would um I I guess
just trying to think how you would
[57:14] handle something like that even even on
overtime, right? Because you could have
[57:18] a day where it's just quiet and nobody
goes or you get a a day like you had
[57:23] where you had five going. Um
>> how would how would that any idea how
[57:28] that might look?
>> Three chair council, you'd have to put
[57:32] people like on a standby.
>> Yeah.
[57:35] » Like a call.
And we would try to only do that with
[57:38] people being admitted
>> because it's just it's just
[57:42] » overwhelming.
>> It'd be very very difficult.
[57:44] » Crazy.
>> We tried it for a little while a couple
[57:47] years back, but it really wasn't u
didn't work out too well.
[57:57] » No, you're ready.
>> Go ahead.
[57:59] » Thank you, Madam Chair. Through the
chair to the uh to the chief. Um
[58:04] just one of my questions is this I know
it's department policy. Is this more
[58:10] than a policy as far as it being like a
state law that you have to accomp x
[58:15] number of officers have to accompany an
injured person or is it department
[58:19] policy through the chair council? It is
only one officer but one has to
[58:24] transport him up there and then that
officer returns as the other officer had
[58:30] has uh arrived. So now they do two to
four hour increments. So you know going
[58:36] out at roll call that you've have the
12:00 shift. So you leave your route to
[58:42] meet the other officer and relieve them
and that officer leaves and goes back on
[58:47] their if there's only one guy. So, in
addition to the time it takes to
[58:52] transport to the hospital through the
chair, it's also the lost ability to
[58:56] police by
uh driving back and forth to relieve
[59:01] each other
>> through the chair. That's correct.
[59:03] » I tell you what, my concern is I'm also
I'm actually hesitant to even say it out
[59:08] loud, but I'm sure I'm not saying
anything that people haven't thought of.
[59:11] If there was ever, god forbid, concerted
effort by any
[59:16] group of bad people um to do harm in
Worcester, it seems to me they could
[59:20] stage very easily a number of people
being injured and really deplete a
[59:25] particular shift and then go on and do
something they they intended to do. So I
[59:31] mean it's it's a deep concern of mine um
as it is all of ours. So through the
[59:35] chair to the chief what we've talked
about this before would increasing the
[59:39] number of police officers which for a
variety of reasons in addition to this
[59:43] reason I believe we need to get to that
500 level I know a lot of my colleagues
[59:47] do as well would that help
>> through the chair of council I've always
[59:52] been an advocate for double cars because
if you have a double car
[59:57] » at least bringing the officer up there
dropping them off and that car can then
[1:00:02] go back into service
>> right
[1:00:04] » so at least you would still have one
route officer on the route. Right now,
[1:00:10] it's very rare that we have double cars.
And the other part of that is if you go
[1:00:14] to an alarm call, you need two cars.
>> If you go to a domestic, you need two
[1:00:18] cars.
>> So, you have cars coming from and as far
[1:00:21] as a noise ordinance, whoever has that
in their trunk may not be the guy.
[1:00:26] » Right.
>> So, it's
[1:00:27] » that's why I suggested that.
>> So, so increased number of the officers
[1:00:32] would be a help.
>> Yes.
[1:00:34] for a lot of reasons including this one.
>> All right. Thank you.
[1:00:38] » So through the chair, how do we how do
we make this
[1:00:42] » change? Because not only is it an issue
with officers, but now you have a route
[1:00:48] that's vacant,
>> right?
[1:00:50] » Other officers are coming from other
parts of the city to cover that route,
[1:00:55] which also is leaving that area
unprepared. Um, so it's a it's quite an
[1:01:02] issue in my opinion as I see it sitting
here tonight and I don't I agree with
[1:01:07] the double officers in the car because
at least it gives you that flexibility
[1:01:13] um what would need to take place to make
that happen in the short term anyways
[1:01:18] through chair council not only is it
more effective it's safer
[1:01:23] and addition to that what I would do was
if I had the personnel I would make the
[1:01:29] route smaller. That way you have less
jurisdiction to cover and you put more
[1:01:34] people out so that when there are people
leaving, they can more easily
[1:01:40] cover that smaller jurisdiction or
route. So we have 20 right now. Make it
[1:01:46] 30. And it should be done by a study of
where the most calls are coming from.
[1:01:53] Right now it's 20 roots. It's been that
way probably for 50 years. We need to
[1:01:59] come together and maximize
the technology we have that can tell us
[1:02:05] when and where the calls are coming and
then you deploy your troops according to
[1:02:10] that
>> but you need the personnel to do it
[1:02:14] » right
>> that's um
[1:02:17] » to the chair I would I would ask for a
chairman's order on that to ask the
[1:02:21] manager and the chief to come forward
with something
[1:02:24] » y
>> um at least so we can get an idea what
[1:02:28] it would look like, what it would cost,
at least start it in some manner.
[1:02:33] Doesn't have to be full-blown, but at
least I agree. Follow the data,
[1:02:39] » right?
>> Um, so we'll do a chairman's order for
[1:02:42] report uh on that and um
>> y
[1:02:49] to interrupt your train of thought, but
um the one question I forgot to ask in
[1:02:53] addition to increasing the number of
police officers
[1:02:57] would have going back to some sort of
precinct police stations
[1:03:04] help um if we had enough personnel as
far as minimizing the trips to the
[1:03:09] hospital and so on and so forth um
because that's system that used to be in
[1:03:14] place and I know a lot of people in a
lot of neighborhoods
[1:03:17] love to see police officers walking down
their neighbor I mean you know this
[1:03:21] notion that only certain neighborhoods
get walking beats and others Well, there
[1:03:27] may be some truth to it, but it has to
do with personnel. I think every
[1:03:30] neighborhood should have in every
district.
[1:03:32] » I we've talked about I brought that up
before have precincts and
[1:03:36] » right through through chair to council.
I wrote that plan and within it was that
[1:03:42] we were going to have to maximize the
number of officers to make that work.
[1:03:46] » The the key to that is to have the same
officers in the same area every single
[1:03:50] day. That way you have that community
engagement. If you don't have enough
[1:03:55] cops, then you're going to keep
switching them to different precincts.
[1:03:58] And that's why that was not a viable
alternative.
[1:04:02] » Can I just add a comment? No more
questions. All this goes back to me. You
[1:04:06] know, we we just finished a budget,
billion dollar budget. I think going
[1:04:09] back into the next budget cycle. Um
there has to be a cohesive unified um
[1:04:16] message to the city manager that it's
time to start. I know it's challenge
[1:04:22] challenge to keep what we got, but we
have to start figuring out how do we get
[1:04:25] to that 500 number because we can't just
keep treading water and just trying to
[1:04:31] equal what we've got when we have
college kids here that make our
[1:04:34] population larger. We've got a
population that grows more than any
[1:04:37] other city historically in the last
decade. Um, and proportionally, we've
[1:04:43] talked about this on the council floor.
Worcester has less police officers per
[1:04:47] as a percentage of population than every
other major city in New England,
[1:04:51] Providence, Springfield, so on and so
forth. So, I mean, those of us that
[1:04:55] believe that that's part of the
solution, I think there's a good number
[1:04:58] of us have to make sure that next year's
budget includes a game plan. It's not
[1:05:02] going to happen in a year, but it's
going to start happening.
[1:05:05] » I would agree if if I could just add to
that. So,
[1:05:09] » we have been fortunate that we get a
class every year.
[1:05:12] The issue is sustaining
those that are going to be leaving. Like
[1:05:17] my class, the class before me
30, we all have 32 years,
[1:05:23] » right?
>> Why do you stay longer when you're
[1:05:26] working for 20 cents on the dollar?
That's the question,
[1:05:30] » right? With everything going on, that's
you're in reality, that's what you're
[1:05:34] being paid because you're already at
80%. So people leave, they go to other
[1:05:39] agencies or they leave and get other
jobs. Um, so now like today we're
[1:05:44] probably down 70 75 cops. So you you
it's very difficult to sustain that. I
[1:05:52] advocated and I've said it before for
two classes a year to try to get that
[1:05:57] number up.
That's something that I think we
[1:06:01] absolutely should be asking
in the form of a chairman's lawyer that
[1:06:06] the U manager um
put on an extra class.
[1:06:12] » Would you also consider on that order
>> to include looking at what other
[1:06:16] municipalities might be doing to
incentivize officers from from retiring?
[1:06:22] » I think we have an order. I think I did
put an order in on that.
[1:06:26] » Maybe remind certain people that we need
that answer.
[1:06:29] » Yeah. AJ, did you hear that?
>> Madam Chair, I'm sorry. Could you repeat
[1:06:34] that?
>> Sure. I I I think I I had filed an order
[1:06:37] requesting what other uh cities and
towns are doing to incentivize um
[1:06:42] recruit recruiting and transfers of
police officers. Um but if we haven't,
[1:06:48] then I'd like to do that as a chairman's
order.
[1:06:51] » And otherwise, perhaps we could just get
an update on where that's at either way.
[1:06:54] So yeah, we can put that in. No problem.
All right, that's good. Um, and then um
[1:07:00] we're talking about uh coming up with a
a plan uh including budget and etc. um
[1:07:06] for increasing um the numbers. Um
>> but if I may, Madam Chair, even if we
[1:07:11] had 10 more, right, and say if we're
able to work our system the way we're
[1:07:17] working it, we had 10 more that we could
double up 10 units or five units, five
[1:07:24] roots
where the data brings us I think would
[1:07:30] be a vast improvement on a short term
that I feel we might be able to tackle
[1:07:36] in a a year's time. Um
>> I'm looking at the numbers and I'm not
[1:07:41] so sure.
>> No, I just I we got to start somewhere,
[1:07:44] you know, and I agree with Council
Bergman. I think we do need to increase
[1:07:47] our compliment. We're a growing we're a
growing city and
[1:07:51] » this is taking men and women off the
street
[1:07:55] » where we want them sticking them in a
hospital as a guard where their talents
[1:08:01] can be used elsewhere.
>> Oh, absolutely. I think we've all said
[1:08:04] that on the floor.
>> Yeah.
[1:08:05] » Numerous times. And I think it's just a
it's not something that's happening just
[1:08:08] in Wester. Other police departments are
experiencing it. Um and uh I think it's
[1:08:14] been it's been very difficult. But what
bothers me is yes, we're currently down
[1:08:18] 75, but we're talking potential of how
many people are in those two classes.
[1:08:26] » The number left
maybe 60, 70.
[1:08:31] » So that's potentially could be 110, 115.
>> Yeah. No, I'm with you.
[1:08:36] » So it's I I think I got up on this floor
and said that this was a massive crisis
[1:08:41] here. So um you know I think it's we
need to do something and I I think uh
[1:08:47] whether
whether it's is there any way that they
[1:08:53] they have to be they have to be they
couldn't be uh a retiree or something
[1:08:59] like that. It has to be a full
>> through the chair of council. you know,
[1:09:03] because
>> if you have to arrest someone, I mean,
[1:09:07] » people show up, try to freeze. I mean,
it's
[1:09:10] » Yeah, I get you.
>> There's a lot to it.
[1:09:11] » No, I just I was just trying to think
outside the box.
[1:09:14] » If I Is there a way to through the chair
to work cohesively with other
[1:09:18] departments who may be also, you know,
whether it's the sheriff's, other towns.
[1:09:24] » I think it's a custody issue
>> through the chair of the council. That's
[1:09:28] correct. It's once they're in our
custody,
[1:09:31] » we own them.
>> We own them. Anything that happens to
[1:09:33] them, it's on us.
>> Okay.
[1:09:35] » Yeah. So, all right. So, we'll we'll
look for uh for report and potential uh
[1:09:41] solutions to this. Uh Chief, thank you
very much. I appreciate all the hard
[1:09:46] work you guys are doing.
>> Uh and I was remiss um No, go ahead. Uh
[1:09:52] I was remiss and I had a a resident who
wanted to comment on the uh noise
[1:09:59] ordinance. So, please come forward.
Hi, my name is Bruce Hoffner.
[1:10:05] Um, I deal with some property on Lincoln
Street and Wayside Road. Um, I like all
[1:10:12] the ideas, uh, Mr. Ricono had and, uh,
obviously, uh, Council Bergman had some
[1:10:20] good ideas. Um, I I'd like to throw out
a couple of things.
[1:10:26] First of all, being lied straight to our
face. Five years we've been lied to. So,
[1:10:32] with that said,
let's make it painful
[1:10:37] for them to keep lying.
I'm talking about $5,000 fine.
[1:10:44] All right? Maybe the second time, maybe
the first, third, I don't know, but make
[1:10:50] it incremental
because this has gone on too long. I had
[1:10:55] a dog die because of the thumping.
He just kept barking all night long. It
[1:11:01] was my guard dog.
He thought someone was banging on the
[1:11:05] doors
and I know it was because of that. I
[1:11:10] know that. So if it's incremental
when they feel the pain,
[1:11:18] it's going to be something for them to
think about.
[1:11:20] » Well, I think that's I Mr. Hoffner, I do
believe that we we said that that we do
[1:11:26] need to increase the fines and and I
understand the incremental. That's what
[1:11:30] I think uh the commissioner was talking
about as well.
[1:11:33] » But I'm talking about pain
>> 5,000.
[1:11:37] » Yeah.
>> You wake up when it gets to 5,000.
[1:11:40] » Yeah. Well, I I we also asked for what
the legal limits are for increasing the
[1:11:44] fine. So, we'll wait and find out about
that and we'll have that brought forward
[1:11:48] to council and have it come back to the
>> the other thing is is another person's
[1:11:54] been online waiting to speak.
>> Okay. Uh, and there's one I was not
[1:11:59] being aware of that.
>> There's one other thing that I just want
[1:12:02] to bring up.
>> So, everybody on Pasadena Parkway
[1:12:06] surrounding that church has moved out
except for one person.
[1:12:11] Everybody. They've all moved out.
They've sold their houses.
[1:12:16] One of them, one woman had cancer. They
didn't care about that. Another person
[1:12:21] had a nervous breakdown. He actually
started threatening people with guns. We
[1:12:26] don't want to get to that point again.
>> So, we do not
[1:12:30] » I you know I didn't sleep this weekend
because of this. Okay. Usually I go up
[1:12:34] to New Hampshire,
>> but I work this weekend. It was the end
[1:12:38] of the month. Usually in September
things get very busy for the inspection
[1:12:44] business. I open at 7 in the morning,
close at 9:00.
[1:12:48] » So, I'm way overt tired and I'm really
aggravated.
[1:12:53] But thank you. Uh, I wish you could
address Joe Kasher online.
[1:12:57] » Yep. I wasn't aware that there was
someone online. Sorry.
[1:13:02] » Thank you,
>> Madam Chair. We would use this
[1:13:03] opportunity to remind folks if they do
want to speak to please use the raise
[1:13:07] hand function. And again, the raise hand
function is the bottom center of your
[1:13:11] screen or you dial star 9 to raise your
hand. And madam chair, we have one
[1:13:15] person raising their hand. uh the person
I can identify as Phillip. Just your
[1:13:20] full city full name city or town of
address and the item that you're
[1:13:25] speaking on. Thank you.
>> Hi, can you hear me?
[1:13:30] » Yes.
>> Yes.
[1:13:31] » My name is Joseph
Carsha, my family property about St.
[1:13:37] Jonavar Church. And um I'm a little bit
confused. Um, it sounds to me after
[1:13:43] listening and waiting to speak for over
an hour, um, there there's a process in
[1:13:49] place for the license commission to
receive an application and a butters to
[1:13:54] be invited to a hearing. There's been
um, dozens of um, events at this church.
[1:14:03] Uh, and not all of them have resulted in
complaints, but I have never once
[1:14:08] received a invitation to a hearing for
licenses. Um, fact is I I most recently
[1:14:15] got invited to one because one of the
inspectional services employees happened
[1:14:19] to see one of the emails cuz I started
having to email half the city uh to get
[1:14:25] any sort of response from the city. Now,
um
[1:14:30] I've spoken and had interactions to many
police officers and emergency
[1:14:35] communications department uh employees
and they
[1:14:41] none of them understand the noise
ordinance. They don't understand the
[1:14:44] peritting process. Um they make up lies
about there being permits and then there
[1:14:49] are none when I seek public records for
them. They don't know how to assess
[1:14:54] complaints um or document violations.
That's the issue. Um
[1:15:01] really hoping people get trained uh and
given decimal meters. I'm a little bit
[1:15:06] confused how
unlicensed entertainment can take place
[1:15:12] for, you know, years and years and
years. They're not they're just begging
[1:15:16] for forgiveness instead of going through
the process of asking for permission. I
[1:15:20] feel like that should be grounds to just
shut it down at this point. Why are you
[1:15:24] continuing to be played?
And just for the record, I have
[1:15:30] absolutely no issue with events
happening there. Uh people worship,
[1:15:35] worshiping, celebrating, uh gathering,
assembling. Um I think it's healthy for
[1:15:41] uh people to be spiritual. It's look, I
live hundreds of feet away from this
[1:15:46] property and can hear it in my house and
I have a legal um right to peaceful
[1:15:54] enjoyment of my property. This there's
no question that they are breaking the
[1:16:00] language in the noise ordinance. Um, I
have uh body cam footage of officers
[1:16:08] agreeing like, "Yeah, we're hundreds of
feet away from this building with the
[1:16:12] doors closed and we can hear it and we
would be pissed too if we were trying to
[1:16:16] go to sleep."
>> Um, so this is just Come on. I mean,
[1:16:22] really. So, the Yeah,
>> they go down, they uh take occupancy um
[1:16:28] certificates away and then they give it
back when they go down to the office and
[1:16:32] beg for them. That's ridiculous. And so,
of course, it's going to happen again.
[1:16:36] Um, was this past Saturday? Was did they
go through the licing licensing process
[1:16:42] for that? No, I doubt they did. Um, come
on. This is just ridiculous at this
[1:16:47] point. And just so everyone knows, I
went down into that church, met with the
[1:16:52] priest, brought my own personal DJ
equipment, and showed them what like an
[1:16:57] appropriate sound system would um be
like. and they wouldn't even bother um
[1:17:03] the neighborhood if they use that. They
don't listen. They want to bring in huge
[1:17:07] powerful subbase. They want to bring in
hundreds and hundreds of people and
[1:17:12] blast the music. That's the problem. And
you know, I think it's we're all in
[1:17:17] agreement. There's no it's just
unmanageable. Like it's the wrong person
[1:17:22] running things,
>> right? I agree. I agree with you. And
[1:17:25] that's why we're we're moving forward
with all of this. Certainly.
[1:17:30] How about this? You've been very patient
because, you know, we've talked about
[1:17:34] this for several years, too.
>> So, I do think that the commissioner I
[1:17:38] do think that the commissioner uh has um
you know, the right uh tactic to move
[1:17:45] forward. Uh we asked some good
questions. We're waiting for reports and
[1:17:50] uh so I think that uh let's let's get
that uh information and we can talk
[1:17:54] about this uh at the next u hearing.
>> Yeah. I I mean, in my opinion, it should
[1:18:00] be the next time it happens. Okay? And
you don't need decibel meters to drive
[1:18:05] up Wayside Road hundreds of feet away
and use your own two ears and hear it
[1:18:10] plainly audible as um defined in the
noise uh ordinance. I mean, I could
[1:18:17] literally sing the baselines to you.
That's how many times I've heard them.
[1:18:21] » I'm sure.
>> Yeah. So, I mean, maybe take away the
[1:18:25] occupancy uh certificate the next time
this happens.
[1:18:28] » That's
>> and I, you know, I appreciate all of you
[1:18:31] for giving me the opportunity and
listening and I especially appreciate uh
[1:18:37] councelor econom for bringing this
forward. Um, so thank you.
[1:18:40] » Thank you very much. Thank you. All
right. So, uh,
[1:18:45] » may I speak
>> on these two items, sir?
[1:18:49] » I'm sorry. on on either the noise
ordinance or
[1:18:54] or the um
on the
[1:18:57] » speak on public safety business.
>> Uh it's not on the agenda. It it's if
[1:19:02] it's not either of those two things,
it's not on the agenda, sir.
[1:19:05] » Well, then I'll speak on the noise.
>> It has to be completely regarding that
[1:19:11] particular ordinance.
>> I will speak on the noise ordinance.
[1:19:16] May I speak?
>> Yes, sir. your name in city.
[1:19:19] » I'm Gordon Davis.
I lived in this city almost 60 years.
[1:19:26] And the north and when we have a
demonstration, the police would come and
[1:19:32] say, "Our loud speaker, our bullhorn,
this is first amendment rights is too
[1:19:39] loud." And I tell him, well, how do you
know that? And then he says, "Then the
[1:19:46] police would say this is several
demonstrations.
[1:19:49] Well, you s turn it off for a real
rescue."
[1:19:54] So I'm saying that was racist. I'm also
saying that what's happening with the
[1:20:02] CNA report is also racist in that the
police chief has said CNA reporting
[1:20:09] anything about it. I'm sorry. and that
this committee which is supposed to keep
[1:20:16] people safe out of water is is harming
us.
[1:20:21] » Sir,
>> what? No, you will listen to me.
[1:20:25] This is a public safety committee.
The people in Wester are being harmed
[1:20:32] and you're not taking it up.
[1:20:45] talk about it later.
>> You heard me. You know, and that's that
[1:20:52] » the uh that's the end of this uh
subcommittee and I want to thank
[1:20:57] everybody for attending.
>> Madam Chair, what did you do with item 4
[1:21:01] A? Would you like to file that?
>> Yes, please. Okay. Thank you.
[1:21:04] » Thank you. Motion to adjurnn.