1 00:00:03,879 --> 00:00:13,440 to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it 2 00:00:09,120 --> 00:00:16,400 stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and 3 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:27,880 Justice you don't get to do that don't okay roll 4 00:00:24,080 --> 00:00:32,640 call Kathy myself Arie um any addition or corrections to 5 00:00:31,519 --> 00:00:39,200 the agenda I've got 6 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:39,200 nothing here J do this I 7 00:00:42,210 --> 00:00:45,560 [Music] 8 00:00:49,160 --> 00:00:58,920 guess hello got you on speaker okay I switch to FaceTime with 9 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:01,920 you so I can see you okay 10 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:14,720 okay you can point him towards the the screen y we just opened and just did the 11 00:01:11,799 --> 00:01:20,040 Pledge okay that's great that's great good to see everybody too R go ahead uh 12 00:01:18,119 --> 00:01:24,119 I've got the agenda in front of me do we have roll 13 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:29,400 call let me let you take over the meeting R 14 00:01:26,439 --> 00:01:34,799 okay so any additions or corrections to this evening 15 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:41,479 agenda again no no okay so we need approval of the minutes 16 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,479 dated January 17 17 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:49,240 2024 I've looked through I didn't see any changes is anybody in attendance see 18 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,240 any changes no or 19 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:54,079 Corrections okay just need a 20 00:01:54,119 --> 00:02:03,119 motion I guess I'll do it sure I move to accept the minutes of January 17th as 21 00:01:59,960 --> 00:02:08,280 written okay I'll second I'll 22 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:12,840 second be we've got a motion a second to 23 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:19,599 approve the minutes dat of January 17 2024 all those in favor say I I I I all 24 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:26,340 those oppose motion carries okay old business 25 00:02:24,319 --> 00:02:31,760 continue discussion of RCW [Music] 26 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,760 35634 27 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:43,360 yeah Russia can I comment on that sure um because uh the Planning 28 00:02:40,519 --> 00:02:50,640 Commission was formed by the state of Washington and this RCW is what kind of 29 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:56,720 created the the Planning Commission for cities and and towns and stuff and in 30 00:02:54,080 --> 00:03:02,280 that uh RCW states that the commission you know 31 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:09,159 shall hold the rules or shall hold the meetings for at least nine uh meetings a 32 00:03:05,879 --> 00:03:15,239 year and I think we've resolved that um it also 33 00:03:12,159 --> 00:03:19,200 states that it shall adopt rules for transactions of business and shall keep 34 00:03:17,920 --> 00:03:24,560 a written record uh I would like to make a motion 35 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:31,680 and a prop proposal that we adopt the rule that all meetings and notifications 36 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,680 will be sent to our private email app 37 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:41,080 you can make any thing you want it's not going to stand up but you can make any 38 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:47,560 motion you want what do you mean it's a public document and doing 39 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:53,000 public business for for the city it goes to your city business uh email yeah Russ 40 00:03:51,239 --> 00:03:58,640 I'm not picking up the audio I'm G to switch back to just a phone call to you 41 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:01,680 okay all right I'm GNA hang up and just get to the phone call 42 00:04:08,319 --> 00:04:16,560 okay got you on speaker okay so I didn't hear go ahead I 43 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:21,280 said it you're receiving public uh business documents so it goes to the 44 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:27,320 your city business email sending it to your uh your private 45 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:30,280 email would create a public records nightmare if someone made a public 46 00:04:28,919 --> 00:04:37,240 records request because now it opens the door for 47 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:37,240 intrusion into your personal 48 00:04:40,840 --> 00:04:47,440 life I'm fine with that but 49 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,360 and okay 50 00:04:54,800 --> 00:05:01,520 second got a motion a second to use personal email for City business bu all 51 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:07,240 those in favor say I I I all those 52 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:17,960 oppose I'm AB okay so 53 00:05:13,039 --> 00:05:25,319 three one all right continue discussing Zilla Municipal Code section 2.48 54 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,319 point10 addition of two 55 00:05:27,759 --> 00:05:31,479 members any comment on 56 00:05:34,140 --> 00:05:37,209 [Music] 57 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,080 this 58 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:47,639 say that the chairman shall create and fill 59 00:05:54,160 --> 00:06:03,699 off3 um we have a conflict in our 60 00:06:00,550 --> 00:06:03,699 [Music] 61 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:16,479 IP I don't have any opposition to seven like from all the 62 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:25,479 other I mean I don't know there is no conflict the website originally said 63 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:31,720 seven the website was wrong that has been corrected what the Zilla Municipal 64 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:39,120 Code says is live and that's what you got now if you'd like to ask city 65 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:45,160 council to amend the ordinance to allow for seven you 66 00:06:42,280 --> 00:06:50,000 can did you hear that Jay Jay as the leaon can very well put that request 67 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:54,319 before Council um Ardell said that was 68 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:59,560 originally put on the website wrong that was corrected but it's the Zilla 69 00:06:56,919 --> 00:07:04,639 municipal code is correct it's only five but you're more than welcome as the 70 00:07:01,479 --> 00:07:10,840 liaison to the city council to go and request that before I would suggest a 71 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:14,360 conversation with uh the mayor first but uh you're more than welcome to approach 72 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:17,440 them about having the membership increase from 5 73 00:07:19,039 --> 00:07:28,319 to7 I don't know how that would benefit us did you hear 74 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:33,639 that not entirely here's our dilemma 75 00:07:29,919 --> 00:07:37,639 and as a city administrator and every staff know we have rules 76 00:07:52,440 --> 00:08:01,800 regulations have now there's 77 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:05,919 discre so I'm not sure I guess it I'd entertain a 78 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:11,400 motion what does our our commission want to do do we want to have seven 79 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:18,199 number um and I think that's where we're sitting right now until the Zill 80 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:23,039 municipal code with our input is corrected I guess we can pick between 81 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:27,639 five or seven that's that's the law we have didn't you say it had been 82 00:08:25,039 --> 00:08:34,000 corrected there was no conflict the website was wrong the website is not 83 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:42,279 your uh your Doctrine the Zilla municipal code is the Zilla municipal 84 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:48,120 code is correct it only has five in there so you don't get to pick between 85 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:53,399 five and seven but you can go to city council and request that you have the 86 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:56,680 membership amended so that seven can be on if that is your 87 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:02,519 wish uh I 88 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:22,560 think and I'm not aware Zill munici code been changed the Zilla Municipal Code 89 00:09:21,399 --> 00:09:28,120 says five the the conflicting document you 90 00:09:26,279 --> 00:09:33,640 showed was what was on the website 91 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,640 the website has been 92 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,079 corrected didn't you 93 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:49,720 hear that closer to yeah yeah let me go ahead 94 00:09:50,480 --> 00:10:00,640 yeah all right can you hear me now Jay yeah go ahead okay so what you 95 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:06,640 showed was you showed a screenshot of what was on the city website and then 96 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:13,000 you also pulled the Zilla Municipal Code the Zilla Municipal Code says five the 97 00:10:09,839 --> 00:10:19,320 website said seven the website has been corrected to match the Zilla Municipal 98 00:10:15,959 --> 00:10:26,200 Code now if you guys vote to you know present a a request for an 99 00:10:22,839 --> 00:10:30,120 amendment to add members you're more than willing to do so if the if that is 100 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:36,040 what the body wish I suggest having a conversation with the 101 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:41,279 mayor first but if that's what this body wants to do you're more than welcome to 102 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:49,279 to explore that yeah man I think I have to agree 103 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:54,839 with on that uh I will refres my uh research on that and see uh what I was 104 00:10:51,959 --> 00:11:00,760 looking at prior to this but uh so that's that's pretty well and good news 105 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:08,839 that at least webs has been changed so we get a little more accurate so I think 106 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:15,920 at this time that issue have to be table meeting table okay okay we're going to 107 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:21,079 table that and then we will move on to continue to discuss Zilla municipal code 108 00:11:27,959 --> 00:11:36,680 248.50 which I which it sounds to me like is 109 00:11:33,279 --> 00:11:42,120 appointing appointment of officers and what the duties of that of 110 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:47,480 those officers are yeah yeah I mean did you have any concerns about the the 2.48 111 00:11:47,959 --> 00:12:01,680 50 no actually I actually like the way that it's written um and it looks like 112 00:11:57,959 --> 00:12:09,159 um points out the duties of chairman Vice chairman 113 00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:09,159 [Music] 114 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:17,600 and one point that I want to point out in that 115 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:24,360 24.50 um the meetings will be called by the Planning 116 00:12:24,519 --> 00:12:33,399 Commission uh and uh 117 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:38,120 the chairman shall proide over the cond of all the 118 00:12:34,399 --> 00:12:38,120 Mee and the Planning 119 00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:45,639 Commission in the future I will be making the 120 00:12:41,959 --> 00:12:45,639 agenda and I 121 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:57,639 will did he have a position we believe the chair is in the 122 00:12:55,000 --> 00:13:05,160 wrong but again it's his prerogative if he wishes to to try to do that 123 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:11,240 um again staff is only availed for actual business so if it's not something 124 00:13:07,639 --> 00:13:16,880 that is of direction did you see how the the city 125 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,880 would get 126 00:13:18,839 --> 00:13:27,360 involved uh well the CCT if I'm wrong too but the city disagrees with the the 127 00:13:24,519 --> 00:13:31,360 position on that and has limited staff that's only available there's business 128 00:13:29,639 --> 00:13:35,040 to discuss that would be a fair 129 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:44,079 assessment I'm I'm sorry that the the Cil Municipal Code States this I didn't 130 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:50,680 write the code I just want to not be liable from not following the 131 00:13:47,399 --> 00:13:56,600 code and uh you know you look into this code a little bit more and 132 00:13:54,120 --> 00:14:03,759 uh uh you know there there's be and other 133 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:09,360 things against members so I guess my hands are tied 134 00:14:06,839 --> 00:14:09,360 that 135 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:17,079 exchange okay um we'll table that one because it doesn't sound like we're 136 00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:23,199 ready to do anything on that Arie you got any any input on 137 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:27,680 that no I just don't not understanding why we're doing some of 138 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:31,519 this like 139 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:34,680 number of members and things like that I'm just start following the reasoning 140 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:40,199 behind it can you hear him okay yeah um well 141 00:14:38,959 --> 00:14:45,399 like this whole phone thing is interesting U yeah I'm I would have 142 00:14:42,759 --> 00:14:48,680 loved Zoom but working on it now and Jay you correct me if I'm wrong Arie just 143 00:14:46,639 --> 00:14:52,279 said he doesn't understand why we're covering this stuff and I'm hoping I'm 144 00:14:50,399 --> 00:14:56,480 interpreting this right they're just discrepancies that we're trying to get 145 00:14:54,040 --> 00:15:03,440 cleared up okay yes I think there's been 146 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:11,639 over the years we have just kind of Beed away from our rules and and for AR sake 147 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:18,160 and and everybody sitting there we're liable if we don't follow the 148 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:21,160 rules and I'm not 149 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:29,560 fix I'm cure and in my experience with the city the county and and rules and 150 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:32,839 regulations that have to be 151 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:39,639 followed and it sounds like the cities may not 152 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:45,160 like using these rules which I I agree may may be a little bit harsh but I 153 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:50,399 didn't like the rules I just trying to follow and I would like the Planning 154 00:15:47,639 --> 00:15:53,399 Commission to follow them 155 00:15:53,839 --> 00:16:03,560 change okay um let's see let's see let me think here 156 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:07,120 so are we out of compliance or no I mean I compliance is 157 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:16,720 important that's a subjective question because that here here's 158 00:16:13,279 --> 00:16:22,120 why if if we go strictly by what the RCW says meeting once every nine months you 159 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:27,240 know once a month for nine months at least yes we're out of compliance on 160 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:32,199 that but again as I spoke during the last meeting Department of Commerce is 161 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:37,040 also trying to get that amended because a lot of communities have since moved to 162 00:16:34,319 --> 00:16:41,399 hearing examiner situations or never move to a a Planning Commission uh setup 163 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:45,399 in the first place with having everything ran through their city 164 00:16:43,079 --> 00:16:51,120 council it's just that they do kind of like a a first and second reading 165 00:16:47,639 --> 00:16:57,680 situation uh for their stuff okay so in that regard yes yeah uh the other thing 166 00:16:54,720 --> 00:17:02,800 to add to this is the city's not in the business of calling meetings just call 167 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:07,760 meetings um if unless there's something to be addressed there's no point in 168 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:12,880 calling a meeting just to have you guys sit around here and approve minutes from 169 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:17,679 a meeting that never dealt with anything in the first place before the last time 170 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:23,919 you guys actively got together was uh to address the water comp plan and the uh 171 00:17:21,199 --> 00:17:29,440 water use efficiency report that made sense it had a bearing on our 172 00:17:26,959 --> 00:17:36,120 comprehensive plan which you guys have jurisdiction over um everything else 173 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:40,799 would you know the only other thing left that we were dealing with at the time 174 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:46,520 was various project plans and those all go through the hearing 175 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:50,919 examiner okay um yeah well I don't know if you caught all that Jay but I mean it 176 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:55,320 does sound like right now we're out of compliance until 177 00:17:52,919 --> 00:18:01,200 Ecom changes Department of Commerce Department of Commerce so yeah we I mean 178 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:07,039 we are a lot of stuff going on here that we're not really 179 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:10,159 following I wouldn't say a lot but that would be the main thing is 180 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,720 meeting. 181 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:27,159 63.4 that is very clear how the state has set up the 182 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,159 commission we are 183 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:38,760 not Ed by the city we work in conjunction with the 184 00:18:33,559 --> 00:18:38,760 city uh we shall adop I would 185 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:57,320 disagree recorded meeting with City staff it's very clear in that 186 00:18:52,840 --> 00:19:00,320 RCW that we uh resolutions and transactions 187 00:19:01,159 --> 00:19:07,440 does it say with the of the city although we should try to work together 188 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:15,120 as much possible I but to be dictated on what we will and 189 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,120 won't do I find 190 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,600 that it's very 191 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,000 clear being an 192 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:47,320 attorney and he day to so what we're really doing here we need to sit down 193 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:51,760 with the council which I will be at the next council meeting 194 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:57,240 also to discuss some of these matters that hey we want to work 195 00:19:54,360 --> 00:20:01,159 together we want to get things uh moved forward uh but the Planning Commission 196 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:07,840 will act as a commission not as a Depart of 197 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:16,000 the city 198 00:20:09,679 --> 00:20:20,200 May CL City in the RC speaks quite a bit about that 199 00:20:17,159 --> 00:20:26,080 we things the mayor suggest Council suggest which we need to get into those 200 00:20:22,679 --> 00:20:33,520 RCW there because this is just a of the iceberg we need to also follow the other 201 00:20:29,039 --> 00:20:38,760 rules which does tie closely to the city um to help the city do things the things 202 00:20:36,559 --> 00:20:42,720 that says that we need to uh help them with the 203 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:48,520 transportation program we've never done that and that is an 204 00:20:44,679 --> 00:20:56,840 RCW so I hope that the commission understands let's get back on track and 205 00:20:52,080 --> 00:21:03,880 let's do it by the law and not shot from the hi because because Citys we don't 206 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:08,520 have to have a meeting this month well those determinations should be the 207 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:13,360 commission's decision that we need that or not have meeting this 208 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:23,600 so okay well we'll we'll table that one um get some further communication with 209 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:30,240 Council or mayor you know appropriate people okay all 210 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:35,880 right um continued discussion on ways to improve the comp the Planning Commission 211 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:40,760 future in Zilla I think we I think a lot of what 212 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:45,880 we just talked about kind of touches on that and we'll probably play into that 213 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:51,000 um did you have some comment on that Jay yeah that's 214 00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:56,360 where I'll have to get back and Michael the mayor of the 215 00:21:54,360 --> 00:22:00,039 council because the worst thing 216 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:16,279 has been great on it there there some other things that we 217 00:22:12,279 --> 00:22:19,279 we need to do as as 218 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,520 and 219 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:33,159 city which I I disagree with but I understand 220 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:37,520 everything I just said follow the code our meetings have to be at 7 o' and not 221 00:22:35,279 --> 00:22:37,520 6 222 00:22:38,279 --> 00:22:48,520 o' MP Cod and our states the public can come to a 223 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:53,520 meeting at 7:00 in the evening plan Comm we're holding an illegal meeting 224 00:22:51,279 --> 00:22:53,520 right 225 00:22:53,760 --> 00:23:01,320 now o' Jay if you could if you could look at 226 00:23:02,799 --> 00:23:12,279 2.484 under meetings in the Zilla Municipal Code it clearly states meeting 227 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:15,559 shall begin at 6: pm. unless otherwise noticed by the 228 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:23,960 city city on your stating that the public can come at 7 o' and 229 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:32,840 the on the webs let's find another issue I agree 230 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:38,000 with you AR except what is the city supposed to do I 231 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:42,559 mean that we have to have a public notice of our meeting it's at 7 232 00:23:43,919 --> 00:23:51,799 o' let's find out she's pulling up the um the website 233 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,880 website 234 00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:05,080 because it may be as simple as changing the 235 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:16,640 website Michael cop of the show the address be what time 236 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:21,200 supposed to be and twice a month right after the City Council 237 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:29,679 meetings the foll it says at least 238 00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:34,159 one that's the RCW it says at least one I 239 00:24:31,799 --> 00:24:37,360 believe our our actual Municipal Code says two 240 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:47,760 oh which is also one of the things that um our city administrator is going to be 241 00:24:45,919 --> 00:24:52,480 looking at when he's doing the boards and commission 242 00:24:49,919 --> 00:24:59,080 revamp is making sure that that everything falls into line and does 243 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:02,240 match so I'm I'm not seeing anywhere on here where it says 700 244 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:08,960 p.m. I've got it up right now and Kathy can look over my shoulder to 245 00:25:26,679 --> 00:25:35,159 verify and I don't know if you heard you said uh Michael is or will be working to 246 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:40,200 revamp he's currently going through the boards and commissions there's some that 247 00:25:37,039 --> 00:25:46,120 we have that have never been activated there's others that need to go away 248 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:51,440 there's he's looking at everything and going step by step looking at the rules 249 00:25:48,679 --> 00:25:58,200 and regulations that created them and what are their purpose and so I believe 250 00:25:54,840 --> 00:26:02,480 he's actually going to be making a a beginning presentation at the next 251 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:08,120 council meeting so you might want to show up for that 252 00:26:04,039 --> 00:26:11,760 Jay um we have staff hasn't even heard what what he's got going 253 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:32,240 on I mean I guess I have a question does the if the city administrator chose to 254 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:39,320 say well I don't want a Planning Commission anymore could he do that by 255 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:47,600 RCW yes yeah did you get that Jay I didn't he resp oh she said by RCW 256 00:26:45,399 --> 00:26:54,360 yes well technically the city administrator cannot just xate it it has 257 00:26:51,480 --> 00:27:02,440 to come from Council okay no just so Council created the Planning Commission 258 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:08,399 Council can by RCW undo it if if that's needed if they see fit I don't know if 259 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:13,640 that would be of their wish but that's question I'm curious about 260 00:27:10,279 --> 00:27:21,240 the procedure did you get that then Jay no okay so um so actually Council by 261 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:26,520 RCW I'm not saying they are but they could choose to dissolve the Planning 262 00:27:24,159 --> 00:27:31,399 Commission if they chose to 263 00:27:28,559 --> 00:27:38,480 sure I think the council could do a lot of things uh would they I don't no I'm 264 00:27:34,919 --> 00:27:38,480 not saying they are I just ask the 265 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:54,000 question that's great RC 35634 very very 266 00:27:50,279 --> 00:28:01,360 clear but hey the city has a lot of options and power just like 267 00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:05,600 City you know aot yeah no and I it wasn't anything 268 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:10,320 that I heard I just was curious about how that so you know make sure everybody 269 00:28:07,679 --> 00:28:13,679 make sure it was on record question ask question 270 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:16,399 answered okay well we're going to table the old business sounds like the old 271 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:23,559 business is going to stay old business for now and new business is the open 272 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:29,720 public meetings act video presentation yeah this is not going to 273 00:28:25,519 --> 00:28:36,159 make sense for uh or J but I strongly suggest that you go to the Department of 274 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:43,159 Commerce uh website and under the uh growth management section there is a a 275 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:48,679 list of uh videos that can be watched one of which is the open public meetings 276 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:53,760 act it's about 27 minutes the other one is the appness of fairness Doctrine 277 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:59,960 which is also a video presentation both of those have to be watched and then uh 278 00:28:57,559 --> 00:29:05,919 with a certified verification that you've gone through it I can put your 279 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:12,960 certificate in the um on file so that if we are ever 280 00:29:10,399 --> 00:29:16,960 challenged that you guys are unaware of the open public meetings act or the 281 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:22,519 appness of fairness doctorine I can pull those out and say no you guys were 282 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:28,279 educated on this uh until that has been done technically we can't address any 283 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:34,519 planning business and until that's been met so everybody has to go through it 284 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:39,799 that you know and it has to be renewed every 3 285 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:43,640 years okay uh Arie did you catch that I did okay Jay did you catch that about 286 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:48,880 the open public meeting act and appearance Affairs doctrine that we've 287 00:29:45,159 --> 00:29:48,880 got to all take soon as 288 00:29:50,080 --> 00:30:02,120 possible okay got it yeah so you guys can listen to it if you wish I 289 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,120 got the 290 00:30:02,799 --> 00:30:10,559 here so when we go through this training at the end of it how do we get proof 291 00:30:08,039 --> 00:30:17,360 that we did it there's a certificate that 292 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:17,360 um that would be be filled 293 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:28,240 out and the um since it is a YouTube video through their site there's that 294 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:33,399 but if you also wanted to take the short course they also have a zoom link 295 00:30:31,039 --> 00:30:36,720 section where you can where this is also available in 296 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:46,600 that well I've got the note on and if anybody needs the reminded where to go 297 00:30:44,399 --> 00:30:50,799 to get to those okay sign me up for 298 00:30:53,919 --> 00:31:04,399 that is that just an intro yeah basically an intro here City boards and 299 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:08,200 commissions in dealing with the open public meetings act so today in the next 300 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:11,200 about 20 minutes or so 301 00:31:12,399 --> 00:31:23,080 back good morning afternoon or evening in this particular situation hi my name 302 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:28,100 is now I'm a hearing for cities and and also City it'll also be a part of the 303 00:31:26,679 --> 00:31:31,180 recording [Music] 304 00:31:34,799 --> 00:31:42,360 to the next about minutes or so I'm gonna teach to know about the open 305 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:47,799 publics so mandatory State training requirements you can understand how the 306 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:52,919 ACT got the open public meeting video going for 2 minutes that your decision 307 00:31:50,559 --> 00:31:58,279 Mak process is open and transparent like the open public meeting act which I'll 308 00:31:54,360 --> 00:32:01,679 be calling the opma uh wants to see so um now you know I'm going to be going 309 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:05,000 over a lot of details on how the ACT applies and exceptions to it and 310 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:08,760 exceptions to exceptions and that kind of thing but I don't want you to lose 311 00:32:06,919 --> 00:32:12,600 sight of the fact that this actually is very simple requirement and it's very 312 00:32:10,919 --> 00:32:18,559 easy to understand if you just keep two principles line the first principle is 313 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:22,120 that uh the open public meetings act requires it if you have a meeting that 314 00:32:20,399 --> 00:32:25,200 meeting has to be open and available to the public they have a right to attend 315 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:29,240 and you have to provide notice of the meeting so that public meetings happen 316 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:33,159 so they can go there and watch what's going on that's the first principle the 317 00:32:31,519 --> 00:32:36,799 second principle and this is something that that uh this is where people get 318 00:32:35,159 --> 00:32:40,960 probably don't realize this is anytime you have a quum of your decision-making 319 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:44,399 Bo your Planning Commission or your city council and they're engaged in any 320 00:32:42,799 --> 00:32:48,519 action which is defined by the open public meetings act as including any 321 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:51,960 discussion or deliberation that's qualifies as a meeting so even if you're 322 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:55,279 outside in a parking lot when you're done through public or Planning 323 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:58,039 Commission meeting and you're talking about what happened at that Planning 324 00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,760 Commission meeting that probably qualifies as a meeting under the open 325 00:32:59,639 --> 00:33:04,480 public meetings act and there should have been notice and the public should 326 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:09,240 have been given that opportunity to attend so just keep those two principles 327 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:13,159 in mind and I think you know you will um avoid 90% of the problems that you can 328 00:33:11,519 --> 00:33:17,760 encounter with the open public meetings act so let's get down to the details now 329 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:22,600 you know the open public meetings act has been on the book since 1971 that's 330 00:33:20,799 --> 00:33:26,480 several decades at this point and so of course in all that time we've had a lot 331 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:29,600 of opportunities develop a substantial number of cases that interpret the act 332 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:33,760 and how it applies to cities and counties now unfortunately for cities 333 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:38,039 and counties most of those cases start off like this and I'm paraphrasing very 334 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:41,440 Loosely but we the courts rule against the city Air county and we feel we have 335 00:33:39,639 --> 00:33:46,960 no choice because of the really strong purpose Clause of the opma and uh and 336 00:33:45,399 --> 00:33:50,760 let me tell you that purpose Clause is really powerful and I'll read to you 337 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:54,120 directly on the slide as well here so what it says the people of the state do 338 00:33:52,799 --> 00:33:57,760 not yield their sovereignty to the agencies which serve them the people in 339 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:01,360 delegating of Authority do not give their public servant the right to decide 340 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:05,080 what is good for the people to know and what is not good for them to know the 341 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:08,720 people insist on remaining informed so that they may retain control over the 342 00:34:06,519 --> 00:34:12,359 instrument they have created it's almost like a declaration of independence for 343 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:16,040 open and transparent government our legislature actually copied that from a 344 00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:19,200 public initiative which created the public records act which provides that 345 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:24,000 records should be available to the public and so the same principles apply 346 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:28,839 to the opma as well there's another uh Statute in the opma that that also makes 347 00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:33,280 it really tough for cities and counties when they're dealing with opma lawsuits 348 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:37,560 and that is a provision that states that the opma is to be liberally construed 349 00:34:36,240 --> 00:34:42,480 which means essentially that if there are any gray areas if it's an issue of 350 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:46,200 open and transparency you know the Court's going to find a violation so 351 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:49,599 with that really strong purpose clause and with that liberal construction 352 00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:53,119 Clause if there are any gray areas if it's questionable at all you know the 353 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:56,919 Court's going to find that the open public meetings act applies so that 354 00:34:55,159 --> 00:35:00,119 means in your particular case the most important thing to do is if there's any 355 00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:03,839 doubt in your mind as to whether or not you're holding a meeting treat it as a 356 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:07,160 meeting and then you'll be you know you'll be safe as I'll be discussing in 357 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:10,800 a few minutes it's not that hard to comply with the open public meetings act 358 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:14,079 if in fact you're holding a meeting it's not a big deal so you know if it looks 359 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,800 like it's going to be a meeting just treat it like one and and you'll be all 360 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:21,560 right all right let's move on now to this the one statute that that there's a 361 00:35:19,839 --> 00:35:25,320 primary requirement of the open public meetings act and and this is you know 362 00:35:23,359 --> 00:35:29,119 where everything else essentially Falls from under the act and I'll from it 363 00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:33,000 directly all meetings of the governing body of a public agency shall be open 364 00:35:31,119 --> 00:35:36,320 and public and all persons shall be permitted to attend any meeting of the 365 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:40,160 governing body of a public agency except is otherwise provided in this chapter 366 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:44,320 all it's saying is if you have a meeting the public has the right to attend now 367 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:48,720 there's just two you know kind of legal issues and questions there you know in 368 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:52,960 in that simple sense one is what's a governing body and two what is a meeting 369 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:57,640 so let's first deal with the governing body the the the statute says it's a 370 00:35:54,839 --> 00:36:02,599 multi-member board or Commission that is involved in policym or rule Mak 371 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:06,119 for that particular jurisdiction all right so planning commissions of course 372 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:09,079 the city council or the County Commissioners can't amend their 373 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:12,280 development regulations or their comprehensive plans unless they get the 374 00:36:11,119 --> 00:36:15,800 recommendation from the Planning Commission first you are clearly a 375 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:19,280 policy-making body you're a governing body subject to the app and essentially 376 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,760 there are a bunch of Attorney General opinions on this but it's any border 377 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:27,680 commission that's created by ordinance or resolution of county or city is going 378 00:36:24,599 --> 00:36:31,280 to be a governing B and as always it's in doubt you know the particular 379 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:35,000 committee that you have uh if you have a question about it treat it as if it's 380 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:37,680 subject to the open public meetings app all right now let's get to the good 381 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,599 stuff what is that meaning and I've already kind of spilled the beans the 382 00:36:39,119 --> 00:36:44,680 beginning of my presentation that's essentially when you have a quum plus 383 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:48,839 action now I'll kind of explain where that rule thumb comes from first of all 384 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:53,200 if you look at the definition of meeting in the opma it's kind of funny it says a 385 00:36:50,599 --> 00:36:57,400 meeting is a meeting uh at which action is taken a definition is never very good 386 00:36:55,400 --> 00:37:02,000 if it uses the word that's defining but that's what we have under the opma the 387 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:05,200 the the the definition that has more substance here is what's that action 388 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:08,839 that occurs at a at a meaning that's that's of significance and it's it goes 389 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:12,640 through a laundry list of of what constitutes that action but essentially 390 00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:16,359 final action which is any final decision like a vote to recommend you know 391 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:19,640 approval of a comp plan Amendment or a vote to approve an ordinance that's 392 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,800 clearly going to be an action you know and and you're going to qualify as a 393 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:25,760 meeting if you're doing that with a forum also any discussion or 394 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:30,119 deliberation and that's the tough part is that anytime you're discussing or 395 00:37:28,079 --> 00:37:33,960 deliberating anything related to city or county business that's within the 396 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:37,960 jurisdiction of your governing body your committee commissioner board uh that 397 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:41,160 also is subject to the ACT and as I mentioned before that's where 398 00:37:39,119 --> 00:37:44,680 communities uh run a file of the ACT a lot of times because they think they're 399 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:48,880 just having a harmless conversation at a party but lo and behold there's a quum 400 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:52,000 of decision makers in that conversation and and they're having themselves a 401 00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:55,119 meeting now where does that Quorum requirement come from from the Quorum 402 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:58,920 plus action REM well that actually is isn't mentioned in the statute that 403 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:02,400 comes from the case law and the Attorney General opinions which kind of come to 404 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:05,640 the common sense conclusion that you know Planning Commission really can't 405 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:09,200 accomplish anything or do anything unless it has a forum if you vote with 406 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:12,760 less than a quum to make a recommendation that recommendation 407 00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:17,560 really isn't binding it has no legal meaning so you know again if you have a 408 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:21,359 forum and you're you're involved in any discussion deliberation or final action 409 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:25,880 you have yourself a meeting subject to the ACT okay now up until this point 410 00:38:23,319 --> 00:38:30,119 I've been talking a about the uh the the action plan Quorum rule some of you may 411 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:33,880 be wondering what's a quorum I haven't actually defined that yet let me do that 412 00:38:31,839 --> 00:38:38,280 at this point a quorum essentially is just a majority of your decision-making 413 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:41,920 body uh without a majority of that decision-making body as I mentioned 414 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:46,720 before none of the actions you take have any legal or or binding effect and and 415 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:50,760 usually a quum is a majority of the members your local ordinance or bylaws 416 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:55,280 may have a def different definition but it's going to be around that that 417 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:57,920 majority uh for the entire body and there as I mentioned before you know I'm 418 00:38:56,599 --> 00:39:01,680 going to be talking about exceptions and exceptions to Exceptions there is an 419 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:05,200 exception to the quum plus action rule you can actually be holding a meeting 420 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:09,560 without a quum in three limited circumstances one is if the committee is 421 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:12,920 acting on behalf of the governing body all right so you just have two of your 422 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:17,240 five member Planning Commission and they've been tasked to uh uh make some 423 00:39:15,839 --> 00:39:21,680 decisions on behalf of the Planning Commission as a whole and direct staff 424 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:25,440 to do a BC or D well in that particular situation even though you don't have a 425 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:28,640 quum they're holding a meeting and that meeting should they provide some notice 426 00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:32,480 for the meeting and the public has a right to attend also if the committee is 427 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:36,960 holding a public hearing or it's taking public testimony as well even if it's 428 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:40,040 not a quorum still subject to the open public meetings act now we have the 429 00:39:38,599 --> 00:39:44,240 basics here of the Quorum plus action rule let's let's go through some quick 430 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:47,680 examples some R life examples of uh when you're holding a meeting now one of the 431 00:39:45,839 --> 00:39:50,920 interesting things about about the open public meetings act to keep in mind is 432 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:55,119 as I mentioned before it was adopted in 1971 this was before anyone had ever 433 00:39:53,119 --> 00:39:59,400 heard about emails or texting or blogging or messaging or any of that 434 00:39:57,720 --> 00:40:02,800 kind of thing and you know without that really strong purpose clause and and 435 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:06,680 that liberal construction Clause that I talked about before people have a really 436 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:10,760 good argument that well the opma doesn't apply to email exchanges or texting 437 00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:14,079 exchanges because it didn't exist back in the legislature adopted it they 438 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:17,560 couldn't have had it in mind but of course now with that strong purpose 439 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:21,040 Clause it's fairly clear that it you know if you're having a discussion 440 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:24,800 that's by email instead of in a in a room in real time it's still going to 441 00:40:23,319 --> 00:40:28,400 qualify as a meeting and we actually have a court opinion that says that 442 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:32,280 email exchanges that don't happen all at the same time that happen over several 443 00:40:29,839 --> 00:40:35,880 days if you involve a quum of people that can constitute a meeting subject to 444 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:40,240 the open public meetings at and by extension then I think it's fairly safe 445 00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:43,400 to say that texting and and blogging where you have say a majority of 446 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:47,400 Planning Commission members that engage in a discussion and the responses to a 447 00:40:45,240 --> 00:40:52,640 blog or something all those types of exchanges two-way Communications are 448 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:55,880 going to be subject to the app another you know real life examples of meetings 449 00:40:54,319 --> 00:40:59,040 I mentioned before are that like site visits actually if you're out doing a 450 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:02,119 site visit and you have a majority of your Planning Commission members in the 451 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:06,640 car driving out to a site to look at it and you're talking about about uh about 452 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:10,160 the project that's going to be clearly subject to the act out in the parking 453 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:13,200 lot talking about it after the meeting that's subject to the ACT if you have a 454 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:16,720 tradition and this is very common in communities of Y all go out to Denny's 455 00:41:15,319 --> 00:41:19,800 or something after your meeting to blow off some steam if you've got a quum and 456 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:23,319 you're laughing about the silly things that Joe said at the meeting that could 457 00:41:21,839 --> 00:41:27,000 actually be subject to the open public meetings act so be very careful all 458 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:31,200 right the next topic I'm going to address with the op is is is extremely 459 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:34,440 significant because communities had a lot of problem with this in the last few 460 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:38,520 years and that's email exchanges I want to get in a little more detail about 461 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:42,760 that now first of all to be clear you know the open public meetings Act deals 462 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:47,520 with conversations deliberations that I mentioned before that means a two-way 463 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:50,599 street you know a type of communication if you have a Planning Commission member 464 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:53,680 city council member that just sends out information to everybody without 465 00:41:52,079 --> 00:41:58,920 expecting a response or getting a response that's okay it doesn't apply to 466 00:41:56,319 --> 00:42:04,359 passive uh transfers of information that don't involve that discussion um another 467 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:07,480 point to keep in mind with emails is that uh you know even if only two 468 00:42:06,119 --> 00:42:11,319 Planning Commission members are sending emails back and forth if you have 469 00:42:09,079 --> 00:42:14,160 another three that are cced they're considered part of the conversation 470 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:18,280 they're going to count towards that Quorum and uh and you're going to be 471 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:21,720 having yourself a meeting so if you know it's perfectly fine to email your buddy 472 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:25,880 on the Planning Commission and say what do you think about you know what happens 473 00:42:23,359 --> 00:42:29,880 tonight that exchange is not going to apply that qualifies a meeting but if 474 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:32,880 you CC a couple other members of the Planning Commission and you hit that 475 00:42:31,319 --> 00:42:36,920 Forum numbers then you're going to have some problems now also staff you know 476 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:41,800 staff members are not considered a member of the governing body so when 477 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:45,720 they send you agendas by email and and uh hearing packets and that sort of 478 00:42:43,559 --> 00:42:48,400 thing that's perfectly fine you know they're not a member of the governing 479 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:51,760 body they're not subject to the open public meetings act therefore they're 480 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:55,359 not subject to the quum now if they send out an email with that information and 481 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:58,319 then this Sparks a conversation amongst Planning Commission members MERS in an 482 00:42:56,599 --> 00:43:01,839 email exchange then you have violated the act so you always have to worry 483 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:04,920 about that two other points now getting a little beyond the open public meetings 484 00:43:03,359 --> 00:43:09,480 act but this is really important for you to understand is emails are considered 485 00:43:07,319 --> 00:43:13,960 to be public records subject to public disclosure under the public records act 486 00:43:12,319 --> 00:43:16,720 all right so if you send out an email to another Planning Commission member and 487 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:20,359 you're discussing Planning Commission business you know an item that may come 488 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:24,480 up on the agenda or actually that has already been discussed even anyone can 489 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:28,800 go to City Hall and say I want a copy of all the emails of Planning Commission 490 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:33,599 Smith sent out to his friends within the last month and by state law the city has 491 00:43:31,599 --> 00:43:38,079 for county has to provide those copies to the person who requested it all right 492 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:41,880 and that's why a lot of communities now they have uh uh they give email accounts 493 00:43:40,599 --> 00:43:45,240 to their city council members and finding commission members so that all 494 00:43:43,359 --> 00:43:49,559 their discussions are done through that city or county account and those emails 495 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:53,000 are easily accessible for public disclosure request that can be very 496 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:56,079 embarrassing for people you think you know a good friend of yours is on the 497 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:59,800 Planning Commission that's a private conversation well if you're talking 498 00:43:57,720 --> 00:44:04,079 about city or county business it's not a private conversation it's public and the 499 00:44:01,559 --> 00:44:07,440 rule of thumb with this is that uh you know whatever you tell other people in 500 00:44:05,559 --> 00:44:10,599 regards to city or county business in an email uh make sure you wouldn't be 501 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,800 embarrassed if it was put on the front page of the newspaper because a lot of 502 00:44:12,119 --> 00:44:18,160 times that's where it ends up in these record requests and finally another 503 00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:22,240 point to be made by emails is that uh they are public records subject to 504 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:27,000 retention under our state retention laws it's actually considered a felony to 505 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:30,960 delete a public record that is required to be preserved all right a lot of 506 00:44:29,119 --> 00:44:34,760 public record there there's a they have a record retention schedule that's 507 00:44:32,839 --> 00:44:38,680 that's put together by the state AR archivist and a lot of Records you know 508 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:42,079 if you're just talking about scheduling a lunch meeting or something you can 509 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:45,839 delete those immediately but any records that have any substance to them any 510 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:49,559 policy discussions a lot of times those have to be maintained for seven years 511 00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:53,079 and again this is why a lot of communities now give email accounts to 512 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:57,040 their Planning Commission members and city council members and County council 513 00:44:55,000 --> 00:45:00,720 members so that those records are retained at City Hall and and the people 514 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:04,920 you know sending emails from their private PCS don't have to worry about 515 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:07,720 retaining them now we've identified what a meeting is I think that's probably one 516 00:45:06,359 --> 00:45:11,040 of the more important things you need to know about under the opma because once 517 00:45:09,559 --> 00:45:15,280 you understand what a meeting is you're going to avoid a lot of those violations 518 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:18,520 that become major embarrassments for for people when it gets in the papers or you 519 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:23,079 know there as a lawsuit or that kind of thing so now let's talk about what you 520 00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:26,760 have to do if you do hold a meeting all right you you decide that that meet that 521 00:45:25,119 --> 00:45:29,880 conversation out in the parking lot is a meeting so what are you supposed to do 522 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:33,720 Under the act in order to make that legal well two things basically one you 523 00:45:32,079 --> 00:45:37,680 have to provide some notice for it and as I'll be discussing most part isn't 524 00:45:35,720 --> 00:45:41,079 really a big deal and two the public just has that right to attend so let 525 00:45:39,599 --> 00:45:45,960 let's get a little bit more into what it means for the public to have that right 526 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:49,640 to attend all it really means is the public has a right to be in the room 527 00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:54,720 where they can listen to what you have to say that's essentially the only right 528 00:45:51,599 --> 00:45:58,319 they have under the open public meetings act that the right to attend does not 529 00:45:56,599 --> 00:46:02,559 mean that they have a right to testify I mean people are that's a common point of 530 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:07,359 confusion and it's simply not true the opma does not give people a right to 531 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:12,079 interject their comments into your meeting now if on your agenda you say 532 00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:15,200 you you put one item that says public comment period you know that's something 533 00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:18,839 that you regularly give to people then they have a right to talk because you 534 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:22,040 voluntarily gave them that right to talk but there's no state law that says you 535 00:46:20,240 --> 00:46:25,480 have to put a public comment period on your agenda now of course state law in 536 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:28,920 some cases is going to require public hearing for development Improvement 537 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:33,040 applications and and things of that nature and there the public has a right 538 00:46:30,599 --> 00:46:37,440 to testify but with you know under the open public meetings act itself there's 539 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:41,480 there's no right to say anything at a meeting uh the right to attend also does 540 00:46:39,720 --> 00:46:45,920 not mean the right to disrupt all right if if if people are are making a bunch 541 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:49,960 of noise or throwing things at you cap calls that kind of thing the opma 542 00:46:48,119 --> 00:46:53,280 actually has a provision that explains how you can have those people remove 543 00:46:51,359 --> 00:46:58,119 from the room if they do that kind of thing under most uh local definitions of 544 00:46:55,800 --> 00:47:01,520 disorderly conduct that's a crime one of the elements is disrupting a lawful 545 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:05,319 assembly and of course your Planning Commission meeting or your city council 546 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:08,480 meeting is a lawful assembly and if they disrupt it where you can't conduct 547 00:47:06,839 --> 00:47:12,119 business you can call in the police and have them remove just make sure they 548 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:15,960 really are being disruptive because if you have them removed for uh just 549 00:47:14,240 --> 00:47:20,280 exercising their free speech rights or something that can be you know the basis 550 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:23,880 for a false imprisonment charge false arrest all that kind of stuff so it's a 551 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:26,880 pretty dicey thing you want to get your City attorney or County prosecutor 552 00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:31,599 involved when you get to the point of having people thrown out of the room it 553 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:35,079 does happen but thankfully not too often now a couple don'ts related to the 554 00:47:33,359 --> 00:47:39,880 public right to attend you can't condition their attendance on uh signing 555 00:47:37,839 --> 00:47:43,119 a signin sheet or providing their address or something like that it's a 556 00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:47,240 real common practice in public hearings to have people sign in and and state 557 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:51,440 where they live that kind of thing but just you know to have them sit in the 558 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:55,359 room you can't make them provide that that kind of information also you do 559 00:47:53,559 --> 00:47:58,680 have to allow the uh meeting to be reported it if they want to tape record 560 00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:02,400 it that's fine all right now if the recording is disruptive like they bring 561 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:05,359 in some really bright television lights and you got your Council memb splitting 562 00:48:03,839 --> 00:48:09,119 at each other because the lights are so bright you can stop them from doing that 563 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:13,520 kind of thing but it it truly has to be disruptive to the meeting in order to to 564 00:48:11,359 --> 00:48:16,599 get to that point all right so next let's deal with that that notice 565 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:21,119 requirement which I promised is fairly simple and and and it really is you have 566 00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:25,800 two types of meetings under the opma regular and special the regular meeting 567 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:29,880 is your regularly occurring meeting the opma simply requires that you adopt 568 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:33,640 something that says when that regularly occurring meeting is going to occur so 569 00:48:32,119 --> 00:48:37,480 in most city and county codes they actually say the County Council or the 570 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:40,920 city council will meet the second and fourth Tuesday of every month all right 571 00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:44,920 and and there you go you youve applied with the ACT you can also do that in 572 00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:48,119 your bylaws or that kind of thing beyond that actually except for a law that was 573 00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:52,160 just adopted last year and I'll be talking to you about that shortly 574 00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:55,599 there's no other requirement in the opma that requires any notice for those 575 00:48:53,799 --> 00:48:59,160 regular meetings there's a statute out outside of the opma that basically 576 00:48:57,359 --> 00:49:03,440 provides that cities and counties or at least cities need to come up with their 577 00:49:00,839 --> 00:49:05,920 own notice procedures for their meetings and and the way a lot of communities 578 00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:10,640 have dealt with that is they simply say we will post the agenda for our meeting 579 00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:14,559 at least 24 hours in advance at uh at the library at the post office and at 580 00:49:12,599 --> 00:49:17,760 the kiosk rights out at the city council chambers and that that's perfectly a 581 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,480 okay and that's the way a lot of communties like to operate like I 582 00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:23,920 mentioned there's another law that's added to that and I'll I'll get to that 583 00:49:22,079 --> 00:49:28,640 in a minute now special meetings are a little more involved the no for that 584 00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:32,040 basically 24 hours in advance you have to give notice to all of your decision 585 00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:35,520 makers you're going to have a meeting and you also need to let the media know 586 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:39,520 any media that has given you written request to be apprised of the fact that 587 00:49:37,359 --> 00:49:44,160 this is coming up and that notice needs to contain uh essentially the items that 588 00:49:42,119 --> 00:49:47,680 you'll be discussing and the only items that you can then discuss at that 589 00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:51,920 special meeting are those that are listed in your agenda for your special 590 00:49:50,319 --> 00:49:55,359 meeting and that that's that's something very different from a regular meeting 591 00:49:53,319 --> 00:49:58,720 where you're fairly free to add items to the the agenda there's some legal debate 592 00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:02,200 about whether or not you can adopt ordinance that's not on your agenda but 593 00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:05,720 beyond that for a regular meeting you can add just about anything to your 594 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:10,640 agenda but for special meetings you are limited to what that agenda says so all 595 00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:13,359 right so I mentioned before that uh there's a lot that was adopted last year 596 00:50:12,119 --> 00:50:16,559 that's added to these noticing requirements and and that new law 597 00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:22,319 essentially is that you have to post your agenda on your uh website at least 598 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:26,880 24 hours in advance and the LW does not apply to agencies that don't have 599 00:50:24,240 --> 00:50:30,680 websites or that employee fewer than 10 full-time employees all right and the 600 00:50:29,079 --> 00:50:34,920 failure to comply with that isn't going to subject you to the uh the opma 601 00:50:33,319 --> 00:50:38,240 penalties apply to other types of violations which and those penalties as 602 00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:42,319 I'll be discussing are is that the action that was taken his boy the person 603 00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:47,200 that Su to get gets their attorney fees if they wi so now another important 604 00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:51,440 aspect of the opma that's deals with notify notice procedures is continuing 605 00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:56,079 the meaning the opma actually calls it adjourning a meeting but I think most 606 00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:59,040 people uh they understand that that the requirements more clearly if you 607 00:50:57,319 --> 00:51:02,079 call it continuing meeting if you need to continue the entire meeting to 608 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:05,240 another date I'm not talking about just an agenda item I'm talking about tuning 609 00:51:03,799 --> 00:51:09,240 the entire meeting you know say you're going on in o' in the morning 610 00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:13,319 everybody's really tired it's like let's let's finish this in a couple days on 611 00:51:10,839 --> 00:51:16,839 Thursday night okay then under the OPM continuing that meeting you just have to 612 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:21,160 post the agenda of what you're going to continue to discuss at the door or close 613 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:24,720 to the door or you're meeting need to provide the 24-hour notice to all your 614 00:51:22,799 --> 00:51:31,359 decision makers and also to any media that's requested no and well good to go 615 00:51:28,599 --> 00:51:35,359 just don't forget to put that agenda on the door all right so now let's get to 616 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:38,200 some of the grand exceptions of the open public meetings act these were called 617 00:51:36,599 --> 00:51:42,040 the executive sessions our state legislature it did recognize when it 618 00:51:40,079 --> 00:51:46,200 adopted the opma that there are certain circumstances where openness and 619 00:51:43,599 --> 00:51:50,280 transparency actually is countered to the public good and and there's a long 620 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:53,640 list of uh you know what types of meetings aren't subject to the opma I'm 621 00:51:52,319 --> 00:51:57,200 of course only going to focus on the ones that apply to cities and counties 622 00:51:55,520 --> 00:52:01,720 that's that's the most of the audience here uh the first category is Personnel 623 00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:06,000 issues if you're talking about uh employee performance a charge against a 624 00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:08,480 public official if you're talking about the qualifications of someone you're 625 00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:14,599 going to hire board commission uh you know those 626 00:52:11,799 --> 00:52:18,799 types of issues can be handled St legislature just felt that it's a little 627 00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:22,000 difficult to be frank and honest about what you think about you know someone's 628 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:25,359 performance if you have to do it out in an open meeting and frankly it can be 629 00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:28,799 very embarrassing of course to the person they're discussing as well but 630 00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:32,079 the final decision has to be done out in the open now the one that's probably 631 00:52:30,559 --> 00:52:35,559 going to happen more often for Planning Commission members is what they call the 632 00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:40,400 litigation exception or the potential litigation exception that's where if 633 00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:44,599 your attorney is present you can talk about lawsuit that's been filed a 634 00:52:42,319 --> 00:52:48,760 lawsuit that may be filed or the most common the legal risk of moving forward 635 00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:53,520 with whatever action you're thinking about doing if an open discussion of 636 00:52:50,839 --> 00:52:57,839 those legal risks would be adverse to the uh to the city or county 637 00:52:55,960 --> 00:53:00,640 um this is used quite often I mean one of the things as I mentioned before you 638 00:52:59,319 --> 00:53:04,319 really got to be careful with is the attorney has to be there now I think 639 00:53:02,599 --> 00:53:07,680 it's proba there hasn't been a case on it but it's probably perfectly fine to 640 00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:10,280 have your attorney do it by speaker phone that's the way a lot of 641 00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:13,920 communities do it but one way or another the attorney there has to be there 642 00:53:11,599 --> 00:53:18,240 because supposedly the entire point of this potential litigation executive 643 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:21,760 session is to talk about legal risks and the only person who can give you the 644 00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:26,480 accurate information on that is is your attorney of course then the final uh 645 00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:30,319 type of executive is in real estate the purchase and sale of real estate if it 646 00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:34,520 could affect price you can do that behind closed doors I mean think about 647 00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:37,319 it think about it if if uh if you're thinking of buying a piece of property 648 00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:41,000 and you're telling your Public Works director oh you know Joe you're 649 00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:45,200 authorized to offer 50,000 for that piece but we're going to give you some 650 00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:49,359 uh negotiation flexibility to go up to $100,000 if they're really tough well 651 00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:52,520 obviously if you say that kind of statement out in the open you're be 652 00:53:50,799 --> 00:53:57,040 paying $100,000 for that piece of property and that's why the legislature 653 00:53:54,680 --> 00:54:00,520 said you do that behind closed doors just a couple rules dealing with 654 00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:04,880 executive sessions procedural rules before going into exec session you have 655 00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:08,200 to announce what the purpose of the executive session is that that 656 00:54:06,599 --> 00:54:12,400 announcement has to be specific enough so that someone could identify in that 657 00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:17,000 list of exceptions in the opma statutes which one applies and then also very 658 00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:21,160 important and it can really be a kind of a pain from a procedural standpoint is 659 00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:24,720 that you have to announce when you estimate the executive session will be 660 00:54:22,839 --> 00:54:29,319 over because a lot of these executive sessions can last for an hour or even 661 00:54:27,079 --> 00:54:33,119 longer and uh you know the public may want to step out as as you're going 662 00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:36,280 through this and and deal with other issues and come back to hear what you 663 00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:40,760 have to say once you reconvene in an open meeting so uh you know it's real 664 00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:43,559 important that that estimate uh at least underestimate the amount of time you're 665 00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:49,200 going to do because if you say it's going to take uh an an hour and then 666 00:54:47,119 --> 00:54:52,200 you're done in a half hour uh the public still outside thinking that that you're 667 00:54:50,559 --> 00:54:55,920 not going to be talking yet and that's uh probably going to be know pretty 668 00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:58,799 quick violation of the op PMA if you end up conducting any business while the 669 00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:02,640 public is still outside in the parking lot because they were told you weren't 670 00:55:00,720 --> 00:55:07,440 going to be doing that anymore secret ballots another opma requirement are not 671 00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:12,040 allowed all your voting needs to be done you know publicly so people can see 672 00:55:09,079 --> 00:55:15,960 who's voting yes or no so finally let's let's deal with the penalties what's the 673 00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:20,400 big deal here with the opma well you know I mean it pro probably the which 674 00:55:18,799 --> 00:55:25,480 not listed in the statute the biggest deal is simply the la la loss of P trust 675 00:55:23,039 --> 00:55:29,680 I mean the media is a really concerned and really focused on opma issues you 676 00:55:27,839 --> 00:55:33,920 know they can't do their job in covering City business if there's any secrecy to 677 00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:37,839 it so if a city or county board or commission is found to have violated 678 00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:40,880 that usually makes page one of the local newspaper so that that's a big deal you 679 00:55:39,720 --> 00:55:45,200 know you want to maintain that public press you want to stay out of the 680 00:55:42,119 --> 00:55:48,319 newspapers uh but but secondly um if you violate the act and it's a knowing 681 00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:52,000 violation and and that's an important term knowing violation you know the City 682 00:55:50,079 --> 00:55:54,680 attorney sitting there telling you don't discuss this issue you know it's a 683 00:55:53,359 --> 00:55:57,760 special meeting and it's not listed on the agenda agenda you say we don't care 684 00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:02,200 we're going to do it anyway okay that's annoying violation you're going to be 685 00:55:59,559 --> 00:56:05,880 subject to a $100 penalty uh probably not covered by your insurance insurance 686 00:56:03,799 --> 00:56:09,680 doesn't cover intentional Acts or knowing acts of that nature so that 687 00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:14,640 that's that's your out of out of pocket penalty there uh more severe for the 688 00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:18,680 city itself is that if someone sues a city or county for an opma violation 689 00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:21,799 they get their attorney fees if they win if they lose the city doesn't get 690 00:56:20,079 --> 00:56:25,280 reimbursed for its attorney fees but at the person ensuing wins they they get 691 00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:30,200 their attorney fees and then finally really significant that any action taken 692 00:56:27,319 --> 00:56:34,960 during that illegal meeting is going to be voided all right so if uh you know 693 00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:39,640 you you went through two years of of hearings on a huge development project 694 00:56:37,039 --> 00:56:42,880 and and you for whatever reason violate the open public meetings act and it gets 695 00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:47,119 appealed in supp two years later the court finally determines that the uh uh 696 00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:50,960 you know the decision was made the meeting that was properly noticed you're 697 00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:54,119 going to have to start all over again all right well I think we're finished 698 00:56:52,319 --> 00:56:57,760 here so be sure to let staff know that you just did this training and and when 699 00:56:55,799 --> 00:57:01,760 you had that training done keep in mind you have to do this every four years and 700 00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:05,599 so we'll see you again in four years to go through it again and thank you for 701 00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:18,559 listening and he said use a separate email for City business what is how long 702 00:57:14,559 --> 00:57:18,559 is the next one 17 703 00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:32,880 minutes so your daughter how much you love her with this beautiful 704 00:57:28,319 --> 00:57:32,880 gift it says to my 705 00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:54,559 daughter hello in this segment we're going to be talking about the appearance 706 00:57:52,079 --> 00:57:58,480 of fairness Doctrine a Doctrine created by the courts and legislature liked it 707 00:57:56,680 --> 00:58:04,319 so much they actually adopted a bunch of statutes to implement it as well so 708 00:58:01,799 --> 00:58:07,599 let's just jump right into it and uh and first of all let's let's look at the big 709 00:58:05,839 --> 00:58:11,200 big picture uh like the open public meetings act the appearance of fairness 710 00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:15,000 Doctrine is based on very basic principles that are easy to understand 711 00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:19,359 so if if you just keep your eye on the ball on the major Concepts you'll get 712 00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:22,839 through it fairly easily but all the all that the appearance of fairness do 713 00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:27,240 requires is that if you have a quasi judicial proceeding a proceeding where 714 00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:31,839 you're acting like a judge uh that proceeding must be fair it has to appear 715 00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:35,200 to be fair that no appearances of bias are allowed you can't look like you're 716 00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:40,160 basing your decision on your own personal likes or dislikes as opposed to 717 00:58:37,359 --> 00:58:44,880 exactly what's in the code and two no exp part contacts are allowed xart 718 00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:49,119 contacts essentially are Communications that happen outside of the hearing 719 00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:52,559 process the concept behind xart context is you want to have a Level Playing 720 00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:56,960 Field so that everyone at the hearing knows all of the information that that 721 00:58:54,920 --> 00:59:02,119 that the decision maker has at his or her disposal it's considered not to be 722 00:58:59,359 --> 00:59:05,280 fair if a decision maker decides to say approve a development project because 723 00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:09,640 they were told by the applicant the night before uh that they would do ABC 724 00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:14,480 and D if the public didn't know what ABC and D was and have no opportunity to say 725 00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:18,039 that's not true or we can explain why that doesn't work here that's not a fair 726 00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:22,240 proceeding and that's why expart a contacts are also strictly prohibited 727 00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:27,319 under the appearance of fairness Doctrine now it's very important to 728 00:59:24,319 --> 00:59:30,240 recog ize and this is a you know this is a great point of confusion that happens 729 00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:33,400 all the time in these discussions about appearance of fairness it's important to 730 00:59:32,119 --> 00:59:39,240 recognize that the appearance of fairness Doctrine only applies to quasi 731 00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:43,599 judicial actions it doesn't apply legislative actions and so what's appli 732 00:59:41,359 --> 00:59:47,119 to judicial action well essentially in general because it's it applies more to 733 00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:51,280 just land's proceedings it also applies to buiness license revocations code 734 00:59:49,119 --> 00:59:54,920 enforcement actions it applies anytime you have specific parties or in L's 735 00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:58,400 context that essentially means you've got a permit applicant that's the only 736 00:59:56,440 --> 01:00:01,599 specific party you need you have a hearing or some other contested action 737 01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:05,400 you got that you know judicial proceeding and you're determining the 738 01:00:03,359 --> 01:00:09,559 rights duties or privileges of those specific parties in in a uh land use 739 01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:13,720 permit application that's you know interpreting code priia determining 740 01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:19,559 whether or not the project meets those C code criteria okay well let's get into 741 01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:26,559 some specific examples what constitutes hearing basically any type 742 01:00:22,119 --> 01:00:26,559 of devel application 743 01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:38,680 rights want build this is taking place right 744 01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:38,680 now to build that be 745 01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:47,520 Jud change the designation from medium family 746 01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:51,720 residential that too is going to be considered a qu judicial action subject 747 01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:55,119 to the appearance fairness doctor also if you're dealing with a code 748 01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:58,079 enforcement action uh lot most planning commissions don't have to deal with that 749 01:00:56,559 --> 01:01:02,119 specifically but if you happen to be involved in that kind of thing or city 750 01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:07,880 council that too is subject to the appearance fairness doctor now on the 751 01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:12,200 other side some concrete examples of what constitutes a legislative action 752 01:01:10,319 --> 01:01:16,760 anytime you're doing a text amendment to your zoning code even if that text 753 01:01:14,319 --> 01:01:21,079 Amendment might only really affect you know one person in your community it's 754 01:01:19,079 --> 01:01:24,559 still going to be considered legislative you don't have to worry about appearance 755 01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:29,039 there you can have all the EXP part contacts you want you can make all the 756 01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:33,920 prejudgment uh you know bias comments you want that kind of thing it's 757 01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:37,119 considered legislative political and uh again you don't have to worry about 758 01:01:34,839 --> 01:01:40,960 appearance fairness now comprehensive plan amendments also same thing you it's 759 01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:45,240 not subject to the appearance of fairness Doctrine and what gets to be 760 01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:49,079 really confusing to people is just some Oddity in state law is that even when 761 01:01:47,559 --> 01:01:53,640 you're dealing comprehensive planned land use math amendments concerning say 762 01:01:51,279 --> 01:01:57,160 one partial property that is still considered legisl ative and not subject 763 01:01:55,760 --> 01:02:01,799 to the appearance of fairness Doctrine even though the reone for that piece of 764 01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:05,880 property a separate action is considered subject to the appearance of fairness 765 01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:09,039 Doctrine all right let's deal with uh where you know the appearance of 766 01:02:07,079 --> 01:02:12,799 fairness Doctrine came from now like I I mentioned before this actually was a 767 01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:17,520 doctrine that was made up by the courts so the courts essentially out of thin 768 01:02:15,039 --> 01:02:22,000 air created the uh appearance of fur Doctrine in 1969 based on their 769 01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:26,920 interpretation and requirements that flow from having a public hearing and 770 01:02:24,839 --> 01:02:31,359 the state legislature then codified a lot of those requirements in chapter 771 01:02:28,839 --> 01:02:35,079 4236 of the revised code of Washington so if you want to have a good sort of 772 01:02:33,119 --> 01:02:39,240 simple overview of the Paris of fairness doct in the way that it's been codified 773 01:02:37,119 --> 01:02:43,039 by the state legislature look at those statutes now there have been a lot of 774 01:02:41,160 --> 01:02:46,799 cases that have interpreted what that means since that came out because the 775 01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:50,400 casei was very vague about what appears appness means what does it mean to have 776 01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:54,160 a fair hearing you're really only going to be able to determine that on a caseby 777 01:02:52,119 --> 01:02:58,559 casee basis so we have a lot of cases that kind of Define the parameters of 778 01:02:56,559 --> 01:03:03,279 the appearance fairness Doctrine and those cases can essentially be 779 01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:07,119 categorized into three major categories so one of the categories is personal 780 01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:11,599 bias essentially whenever you have a personal interest or what appears to be 781 01:03:09,119 --> 01:03:14,400 a personal interest in the outcome of a decision or recommendation that you have 782 01:03:13,079 --> 01:03:18,520 to make as a Planning Commission member or city council member uh you know under 783 01:03:16,799 --> 01:03:23,079 the law that that's considered to be a violation of the appearance of fairness 784 01:03:21,119 --> 01:03:26,839 doctor and and there's all sorts of different ways that you can be is have 785 01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:31,160 personal interest the outcome of that case if that affects your uh property in 786 01:03:29,799 --> 01:03:35,799 some way you know whether it increases the traffic from your home it creates 787 01:03:33,079 --> 01:03:40,079 odors or noise it adversely affects you if it affects your property values those 788 01:03:38,039 --> 01:03:44,319 are all situations where a court would consider that to be a personal interest 789 01:03:41,839 --> 01:03:48,640 in the case where you may be disposed to denying The Proposal you know if it 790 01:03:46,039 --> 01:03:52,319 adversely affects your property also you know relationships you may have with the 791 01:03:50,359 --> 01:03:55,039 applicant or with the project opponents you know if the applicant is a cousin of 792 01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:58,079 yours uh you know it's going to appear that 793 01:03:56,440 --> 01:04:02,119 you're going to be favorably disposed to approving that application and for that 794 01:04:00,319 --> 01:04:05,279 reason again a court can through that as violation of the appearance of fairness 795 01:04:04,039 --> 01:04:07,279 and and let me tell you I mean as I mentioned before there are a lot of 796 01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:12,559 cases dealing with appearance of fairness and it is surprising at how far 797 01:04:09,799 --> 01:04:17,319 courts will go to find a violation I think the the ultimate 798 01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:21,440 example for me has always been a a a bank teller case where bank teller is 799 01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:25,160 sitting on a Planning Commission someone has an application for a sight specific 800 01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:29,000 reson in front of him the bank teller doesn't know it but that piece of 801 01:04:27,039 --> 01:04:33,520 property has a lean from the bank that the teller works for and the and the 802 01:04:31,319 --> 01:04:37,480 court actually found violation of the appearance of fance Doctrine in that 803 01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:41,240 case because if that reone or approved the value of the property would go up 804 01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:44,799 which was good for the bank you know it security value went up and which 805 01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:47,680 ultimately could be construed as good for the bank teller again the bank 806 01:04:46,119 --> 01:04:52,039 teller didn't know but just because there was that appearance there that's 807 01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:55,760 all it took to find in violation so it's very important keep in mind anything 808 01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:59,799 that could you know remotely be considered to be a personal interest can 809 01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:04,440 be the basis of an appearance of fairness violation now the other uh 810 01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:08,880 category it's two of three is prejudgment bias all right that the 811 01:05:06,799 --> 01:05:13,480 courts wants you to come into a hearing with a completely open mind you're there 812 01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:17,480 to apply the permit criteria to the facts that are presented to you and you 813 01:05:15,359 --> 01:05:21,440 should not have made up your mind about whether or not those criteria been met 814 01:05:19,079 --> 01:05:24,720 until you've heard all of the evidence and there have been cases where we had 815 01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:27,760 decision makers talking to people before the hearing even started saying I'm 816 01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:31,520 probably going to be approving this project you're you're you're bringing 817 01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:35,319 something really good beneficial to our community comment like that is going to 818 01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:40,359 violate the appearance of fairness Doctrine you you can't be making any of 819 01:05:37,279 --> 01:05:44,880 those type of prejudgment bias comments until the hearing is over and you're in 820 01:05:42,599 --> 01:05:49,200 deliberation and then the final uh category is partiality okay if it looks 821 01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:52,839 like uh you know for because you're a member of the Chamber of Commerce for 822 01:05:50,799 --> 01:05:57,160 example that's promoting a particular development project if it looks like 823 01:05:54,839 --> 01:06:00,960 that you may be favorably disposed it's kind of like prejudgment bias uh that's 824 01:05:59,279 --> 01:06:04,799 going to be grounds for a violation of the appearance of fairness Doctrine as 825 01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:08,200 well so let's move on now to expart contexts that's the other kind of uh 826 01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:11,720 important part of the appearance of fairness Doctrine as I mentioned before 827 01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:15,480 you want to have that Level Playing Field you want it it to be real clear 828 01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:19,160 that the evidence you're considering in a hearing is the only information you're 829 01:06:17,279 --> 01:06:22,799 going to consider as to whether or not the permanent criteria have been met so 830 01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:27,079 what the appearance of fairness Doctrine provides is you know no exp parte 831 01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:31,839 contacts no contacts outside of the hearing process are allowed if you have 832 01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:35,039 conversations with a Perman applicant or project opponent or anybody at a project 833 01:06:33,799 --> 01:06:39,599 about a project and you're getting information about that project that 834 01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:45,440 could be considered violation of the act the appearance fairness doctorine now a 835 01:06:42,039 --> 01:06:48,400 way to fix it if you have violated it is um if you disclose at the beginning of 836 01:06:47,039 --> 01:06:53,079 the hearing you know I talked to Mr Smith Mr Smith told me that uh you know 837 01:06:51,319 --> 01:06:57,520 there are wetlands at the project site and he sees the property is like flooded 838 01:06:55,240 --> 01:07:00,440 and wet 6 months out of the Year all right now that's pertinent to your 839 01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:04,279 analysis of the project it's an xart take contact you need to disclose that 840 01:07:02,279 --> 01:07:07,440 and you got to give them the the public an opportunity to respond to it they can 841 01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:10,520 say no it's only what three months out of the year not six months you know the 842 01:07:08,839 --> 01:07:14,480 public has had an opportunity to review the same information you have you're 843 01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:18,240 fixed now doing this on purpose just talking to whoever you want and and 844 01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:23,240 planning on fixing it later is not a very good strategy for one you tend to 845 01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:25,920 forget who you spoke to and and two you know we're just dealing with the 846 01:07:24,319 --> 01:07:30,599 appearance of fairness Doctrine right now there's also you know actual bias 847 01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:33,960 now if you make a comment to somebody in a conversation like yeah I agree there 848 01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:38,279 are Wetland there and this project should not be approved I hate this 849 01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:42,079 project if you make you know bias comments like that you're out of the 850 01:07:40,279 --> 01:07:46,039 picture whether or not you disclose those comments because bias actual bias 851 01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:50,000 is grounds for refusal whether or not you disclose whatever comments you've 852 01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:53,640 made now since you have a way of fixing violations you might be tempted at just 853 01:07:52,079 --> 01:07:58,160 talking to anybody you want and fixing it later like the ACT allows that's not 854 01:07:56,520 --> 01:08:01,960 a very good idea there are a couple reasons for this one if you just talk to 855 01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:07,359 whoever comes along you probably going to forget who you spoke to and and there 856 01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:11,799 going to be some mistakes made and two that remedy disclosure doesn't remedy 857 01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:14,960 biased comment so if you make comments that sound like you are against a 858 01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:20,480 proposal before you've heard the evidence uh disclosure doesn't fix it 859 01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:23,960 much better than just disclosing uh you know the comments you've made is to tell 860 01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:27,400 people right off the bat I can't talk you about this outside of the hearing 861 01:08:25,480 --> 01:08:32,719 bring up your comments at the hearing and I'll consider them then or submit a 862 01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:36,880 Written Letter you know mail it to the staff the staff will get it to myself 863 01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:40,920 and I'll review it at that point that's the way to deal with xart a contacts do 864 01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:45,319 not talk to people about a project outside of the hearing process now there 865 01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:49,560 there are a few exceptions to the uh appearance AFF fairness Doctrine where 866 01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:54,120 you're going to be allowed to uh uh participate in a in a discussion and 867 01:08:52,400 --> 01:08:57,400 public hearing even though it otherwise would be considered an appearance of 868 01:08:55,400 --> 01:09:02,159 fairness violation one of them one of the more common ones is that uh if you 869 01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:05,520 have so many people who have a violation they all have to recuse themselves this 870 01:09:03,920 --> 01:09:08,719 is gonna this is going to happen for example in small towns where everybody 871 01:09:07,199 --> 01:09:11,839 knows everybody else where all seven members of the Planning Commission went 872 01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:16,080 to high school with the the permit applicant they're all best friends that 873 01:09:13,719 --> 01:09:19,400 would normally be grounds for uh disqualification for all of them under 874 01:09:17,799 --> 01:09:24,000 the appearance of terness Doctrine but under the Quorum rule if you have so 875 01:09:21,199 --> 01:09:28,279 many people who uh have violations that you lose a quorum you're all allowed to 876 01:09:26,319 --> 01:09:32,359 stay there you all have to disclose what that you know violation is but beyond 877 01:09:30,759 --> 01:09:36,440 that you're allowed to participate now again they appear this only applies to 878 01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:40,400 appearance of uh of fairness it doesn't apply to actual biases I mentioned 879 01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:44,440 before that that's beyond the appearance of fairness docum but when it come just 880 01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:49,839 an appearance issue if you all disclose then you can all keep going and and 881 01:09:46,440 --> 01:09:54,679 participate uh another exception is if uh you disclose the fact that there's a 882 01:09:52,359 --> 01:09:58,120 potential violation and nobody objects at that time when they're informed of 883 01:09:56,120 --> 01:10:02,600 that potential violation all right if somebody fails to object when they uh 884 01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:07,520 know about a violation they can't raise that issue later on that's the reason 885 01:10:05,239 --> 01:10:11,679 why uh most communities at the beginning of a quide Judicial proceeding will 886 01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:15,239 start off by disclosing all the potential violations any of the members 887 01:10:13,440 --> 01:10:19,320 could have so you know each person takes a turn on the Planning Commission saying 888 01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:23,120 I live 600 ft from the property and and this may increase the traffic for my 889 01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:26,360 home a little bit this kind of thing y all disclose that then the chair asked 890 01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:30,800 the audience does anyone have any objection to any of the people on the 891 01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:32,920 Planning Commission participating in this hearing and if there are no 892 01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:36,800 objections from people out in the audience you essentially immunized 893 01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:40,679 yourself from any appearance of fairness challenge so that that's why you know 894 01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:45,199 that disclosure disclosing the most remote types of interest is so important 895 01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:49,360 at the beginning of a hearing now if you're running for office while you're 896 01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:53,080 running for office you can U make opinions you can have your opinions 897 01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:56,480 that's a First Amendment issue actually uh about upcoming development projects 898 01:10:55,239 --> 01:11:01,159 that's not going to be subject to the appearance of fairness doctor uh also if 899 01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:04,679 you get campaign contributions from an applicant or something as you're running 900 01:11:02,480 --> 01:11:07,679 for an office that kind of thing also is not going to be subject to the par 901 01:11:06,199 --> 01:11:10,880 fairness Doctrine this is where the courts and the legislatur has recognized 902 01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:14,960 that the First Amendment rights that attached to running for office are 903 01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:19,560 basically more important than the appearance of fairness Doctrine this 904 01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:22,480 this it's a touchy area though because you can again run into problems where 905 01:11:21,040 --> 01:11:27,080 you have actual bias if you're running for office and you're making comments 906 01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:32,080 like I will never ever let this huge department store you know locate in our 907 01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:36,480 city limits uh you know that's more than an appearance AFF fairness issue that's 908 01:11:33,440 --> 01:11:40,159 a due process a bias issue and you're still probably going to have to recuse 909 01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:42,560 yourself anyway so uh you know you're going to have to decide sometimes when 910 01:11:41,320 --> 01:11:45,159 you're running a for office you know if you're going to make some really 911 01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:48,440 unequivocal comments about your opposition development project you're 912 01:11:47,159 --> 01:11:52,600 going to have to decide whether it's more important to be able to make those 913 01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:57,840 comments or to participate as a decision maker once you get into office final 914 01:11:55,239 --> 01:12:02,280 exception is prior participation in an advisory body so say that you were on 915 01:12:00,239 --> 01:12:06,239 the uh uh Planning Commission and you've made a recommendation on development 916 01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:10,239 project and then later on you are uh elected to the city council and you're 917 01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:14,760 considering that finding commission recommendation under the statutes you're 918 01:12:12,400 --> 01:12:18,360 allowed to participate uh again it's a little dicey if you've made some 919 01:12:16,199 --> 01:12:22,080 unequivocal comments for against the the project down below but but in general 920 01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:25,600 you are allowed to participate as a city council member so finally let's deal 921 01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:30,040 with the consequences we've talked a lot about the law here so what's the big 922 01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:34,880 deal what happens if you violate the ACT well the big part is your action will be 923 01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:39,040 void and uh you have to do it all over again kind of like with the open public 924 01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:42,960 meetings act you know if you spend uh two years of processing a permit and 925 01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:46,120 holding hearings and and then you're going through multiple appeals the final 926 01:12:44,679 --> 01:12:50,000 Court decision by the court of appeals or Supreme Court is that you violated 927 01:12:48,199 --> 01:12:54,880 the appearance of par doc we got to go back and do it all over again and uh and 928 01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:58,400 and another consequence of that then is there could be some damages involved now 929 01:12:56,719 --> 01:13:01,120 one of the older cases dealing with this the only one that's directly dealt with 930 01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:05,280 it provided that you there are no damages monetary damages for violing the 931 01:13:03,239 --> 01:13:09,280 appearance of fair in a stalker but that was a while ago that was before some 932 01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:12,719 statutes were adopted that provide that there are damages for violating 933 01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:15,920 procedural requirements appearance of fairness Doctrine could be you know 934 01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:20,360 considered kind of a procedure that you violated and you know it is possible 935 01:13:18,239 --> 01:13:24,560 eler could have you know a claim against you if if their project is delayed for 936 01:13:22,320 --> 01:13:29,440 two years because somebody engaged next part A contacts that were properly 937 01:13:26,639 --> 01:13:33,120 disclosed so so be careful you know and uh it's not that difficult to comply 938 01:13:31,159 --> 01:13:36,719 with the appearance fairness Doctrine just uh think of yourself as a judge you 939 01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:40,600 know consider the fact that would people think that I'm an impartial decision 940 01:13:38,159 --> 01:13:43,199 maker if uh if they knew that I'd been given this information before the 941 01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:46,239 hearing or if they'd known that the applicant is my cousin a lot of times 942 01:13:44,639 --> 01:13:51,360 the answer would be yes they they would have problems about that and uh you 943 01:13:48,440 --> 01:13:56,280 should recuse yourself so in conclusion very simple appearance fairness doct 944 01:13:53,400 --> 01:14:00,920 simply requires no bias no expart contacts if you have to refuse yourself 945 01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:03,560 step out of the room you're done that's all you need to 946 01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:25,960 know all 947 01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:29,719 righty everybody still 948 01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:39,679 here all right fun time still those 949 01:14:37,199 --> 01:14:43,920 out yeah so I do think it's important to go on the record while the second video 950 01:14:41,440 --> 01:14:48,920 was going at about 7:05 Michael Graham came in and there was an exchange about 951 01:14:46,400 --> 01:14:53,800 something that occurred tonight so I am curious about what that was yeah he was 952 01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:58,639 reading my notes regarding uh action taken he thought he would make it here 953 01:14:56,120 --> 01:15:03,600 before getting through the old business but he didn't he wanted to know where we 954 01:15:00,719 --> 01:15:10,639 were and I pointed to the appearance of fairness doctorine after that he saw 955 01:15:06,199 --> 01:15:14,120 okay training he bounced yeah I don't yeah I don't think that the reaction 956 01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:19,960 that was on his face wasn't about the fairness of no it I'm pretty sure the 957 01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:23,480 reaction was to the motion regarding the the uh private email well that's fine 958 01:15:22,120 --> 01:15:26,440 but that's why I want that on record though because I think that's the 959 01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:30,880 frustration with the Planning Commission right now is we seem to just kind of 960 01:15:28,440 --> 01:15:35,480 will an ilot so when I see that come in but we don't stop and talk about it I 961 01:15:33,239 --> 01:15:40,920 mean that's that's a problem well you just got through a video that said it's 962 01:15:37,480 --> 01:15:44,080 not supposed to happen so and but it happened so that's what I'm saying 963 01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:47,920 though how does the city just get to write the rules as we go we should have 964 01:15:46,480 --> 01:15:51,560 stopped and you guys should have we should have discussed it so it could be 965 01:15:49,639 --> 01:15:56,000 on the record because if I wouldn't have just asked about that that would have 966 01:15:53,239 --> 01:16:03,320 never came up why would it it'd be in the minutes would it 967 01:15:59,040 --> 01:16:03,320 yes okay well did you get that 968 01:16:06,719 --> 01:16:14,280 Jay he didn't ask anything he read he read my my remarks well we it'll be in 969 01:16:12,199 --> 01:16:19,239 the minutes though so we'll make sure you request a copy of the minutes you'll 970 01:16:16,320 --> 01:16:19,239 see him next 971 01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:28,560 meeting just so I'm clear on this Michael had a conversation outside of 972 01:16:26,480 --> 01:16:32,440 our meeting an exchange it was an exchange it went call a conversation dur 973 01:16:30,000 --> 01:16:37,520 the meeting and it was also recorded we couldn't hear that with the video going 974 01:16:34,639 --> 01:16:41,840 so nothing really happened I pointed to my my that's not about nothing that 975 01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:45,639 happen it should be of record if I wouldn't have asked after the video what 976 01:16:44,120 --> 01:16:49,400 took place you wouldn't have shared that that's our 977 01:16:47,159 --> 01:16:56,199 frustration there's there's nothing to to share he's reading he's reading my 978 01:16:51,639 --> 01:17:02,560 notes well let's just get the minutes rules isely 979 01:16:58,960 --> 01:17:07,960 violation let's get the minutes so it's up 980 01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:07,960 record any visitor 981 01:17:08,639 --> 01:17:20,880 comments no visitors any staff reports no no staff reports looks like we 982 01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:20,880 adjourn the meeting at 983 01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:26,320 718 right thank you very much 984 01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:32,360 forend I just want to make sure the 985 01:17:33,719 --> 01:17:37,080 roll have a great 986 01:17:39,280 --> 01:17:50,600 evening hey Ary you still there yep I am all right uh you stop by or go online 987 01:17:47,159 --> 01:17:53,960 and you can download the um certificate yourself or you can come to the office 988 01:17:52,199 --> 01:18:01,000 and get one oh I think I'll come to the office okay 989 01:17:57,159 --> 01:18:06,840 remind me of being in school uh Russ are you signing the minutes or are 990 01:18:03,600 --> 01:18:06,840 we waiting till Jay gets 991 01:18:15,080 --> 01:18:30,080 back yeah not a problem okay webly see you tomorrow sure soon okay all righty 992 01:18:24,840 --> 01:18:30,080 have a good one you too bye 993 01:18:35,600 --> 01:18:40,920 bye just give this to right now okay thank 994 01:18:43,960 --> 01:18:47,280 you next 995 01:18:47,950 --> 01:18:51,330 [Music] 996 01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:54,920 time 997 01:19:21,840 --> 01:19:24,840 warm