[1:32] The carry town council at this time, I'll recognize Mayor Pro Tem Bush for our ceremonial opening.

[1:38] Thank you, Mayor. Please join me in the Pledge of Allegiance.

[1:43] I pledge allegiance.

[2:00] We are at item three on the agenda. We have

[2:02] received a request from staff to add the item amendment to the meeting scheduled to

[2:09] tonight's consent agenda. Is there a motion to adopt the agenda as amended?

[2:14] So, Moot.

[2:15] Second.

[2:16] Second.

[2:16] Motion and a second discussion.

[2:18] All in favor, please say aye.

[2:20] Aye.

[2:20] Opposed?

[2:21] Motion carries unanimously.

[2:23] Which takes us to recognitions, reports, and presentations.

[2:27] Our first presentation is PRCR month proclamation, and I'll recognize Councilmember Bonzel

[2:34] to present the proclamation and invite her honored guest to join her.

[2:49] Thank you, Sarah, for joining today.

[2:51] You're the chair of the PRCR board and doing an incredible job in keeping us on track. Thank you so much

[2:58] For that. So today I will recognize July 2026 as Parks and Recreation Month in care, you know at Carolina

[3:06] whereas

[3:07] Kerry parks recreation and cultural resources enriches the lives of residents by providing

[3:13] high quality parks programs facilities cultural experiences and recreational opportunities

[3:20] that foster health wellness connection and belonging, and whereas, whereas carries

[3:30] nationally recognized parks and recreation system serves people of all ages

[3:37] abilities and interests, creating welcoming spaces where residents and

[3:45] visitors can play, learn, gather, celebrate and build community and whereas parks, trails,

[3:57] greenways, natural areas, arts and recreation programs contribute to the environmental, social

[4:07] and economic vitality of Cary was supporting healthy lifestyles and enhancing quality of life.

[4:18] And whereas the town of Cary is committed to thoughtfully planning for the future by expanding access to parks and recreation,

[4:28] education, promoting environmental stewardship, embracing innovation, and ensuring these resources

[4:38] continue to meet the evolving need of our growing community.

[4:44] And whereas Cary recognizes the dedicated professionals, volunteers, partners, and

[4:53] members whose contributions helped make Kerry's parks and recreation system one of the nation's

[5:01] finest and strengthen our community every day. Now therefore, I, Council Member Suika Bansal,

[5:10] on behalf of the Kerry Mayor and Council, do hereby proclaim July 2026 as Park and Recreation

[5:18] Month in Kerry, and I encourage all residents to discover new experiences, connect with

[5:25] nature and one another, support our parks and programs and celebrate the many ways our

[5:31] parks, recreation and cultural resources help our community thrive. Proclaim this 23rd

[5:37] day of July, 2026.

[5:49] Thank you, Councilwoman Bunzel and thank you, Mayor and other Council

[5:53] members, we certainly appreciate all of the resources, the time, the effort that

[5:59] Cary puts into our parks, recreation, and cultural resources division. The town of

[6:05] Cary, the citizens that live throughout the town of Cary, thoroughly enjoy all

[6:12] kinds of activities in our town, whether it be our seniors at a hot dog

[6:18] go down over at Bond Park, or whether it be toddlers taking a parent and child art class

[6:26] from Miss Lisa at the Kerry Arts Center, which I did many times, or if it might be folks taking

[6:34] dance classes or attending a concert or going to an event that might be happening such

[6:41] as the Chinese Lantern Festival at Coco Booth. The town of Cary is rich in experiences for

[6:50] our citizens. And it's because of this that Cary is so nationally recognized as a wonderful

[6:57] place to live. And there's no other place on earth. I would rather raise my family and

[7:03] have my parents join me now after they've retired and moved here. This is the place

[7:10] to live. I absolutely love it. And I thank you for investing in the power of play. You

[7:18] see, play sort of goes as a theme through everything that we do in Parks, Recreation,

[7:26] and Cultural Resources. It's healing for our community. So I do want to encourage folks

[7:33] to get out to our parks, our greenways, our paths, our trails, take a class, try

[7:39] something new, go to a concert, come to the 50th annual Lazy Days Festival taking

[7:46] place just one month from now on August 22nd and 23rd. And again, thank you for

[7:53] making Kerry what it is by having such a robust Parks, Recreation, and Cultural

[8:00] Resources Division. Thank you. Thank you.

[8:08] Our second presentation is the

[8:11] sister cities proclamation and I'll recognize councilmember Craig to present

[8:15] this proclamation and invite her honored guests to join her at the podium.

[8:27] Both of you stay. So yes I am councilmember Michelle Craig and I am

[8:33] honored to be the council liaison for Kerry's sister cities and tonight we

[8:37] have a proclamation recognizing sister cities International Day. Whereas in

[8:44] In 2026, Sister Cities International is celebrating 70 years of global citizen and civic diplomatic

[8:51] action and helping support a future where the world, cities, communities, and its citizens

[8:56] can come together on common ground, whereas Sister Cities International Day is a fitting

[9:01] occasion to commemorate the significant impact that the organization has made in building

[9:06] bridges across nations, cities, and communities across the globe in order to create

[9:13] and sustained world peace, whereas Sister Cities International was founded as presidential

[9:19] initiative by President Dwight D. Eisenhower on September 11th, 1956, at the White House

[9:26] conference on citizen diplomacy to create more community-led global relationships so

[9:31] that people of different cultures could appreciate their differences and build partnerships

[9:35] that would lessen the chance of new national conflicts. Whereas Sister Cities International

[9:42] currently has 400 U.S. member cities, counties and states that include

[9:47] relationships with more than 1800 communities in 140 countries spanning six

[9:54] continents. Whereas Cary, North Carolina is proud to be a driving part of the

[9:59] global network with sister city partnerships spanning the globe and

[10:03] the following cities and in countries like 2k France, Markham, Canada,

[10:09] Bandurnum, Turkey, Shintu, Taiwan, and County Meath, Ireland, whereas countless city, county

[10:16] and state governments and their leaders have been involved in global relationships due

[10:21] to Sister Cities International, and whereas these relationships include educational, economic,

[10:27] cultural, municipal, and humanitarian assistance exchange programs that are mutually beneficial

[10:33] to each community.

[10:35] Whereas Sister City's International Day is a call to action for Americans and citizens of the world

[10:41] to come together to celebrate the importance of communities,

[10:45] continued commitment to people, people-to-people exchanges,

[10:48] and show how powerful humanity can be when we unite to promote peace,

[10:53] progress, and prosperity for a better world.

[10:56] Now, therefore, I, Council Member Michelle Craig,

[10:59] on behalf of the Cary Mayor and Council to hereby recognize July 23rd,

[11:05] 2026 at Sister City's International Day in Cary and encourage all residents to

[11:11] celebrate this day as a milestone for world peace proclaimed this 23rd day of

[11:16] July 2026.

[11:29] We have a Kenne King and we have Mihael Lynch that are coming to

[11:36] for the proclamation. We're all awarded by our specific mind.

[11:51] Fulled it up speech here. Okay.

[11:53] Hi, my name is Kena King. I'm the vice president of Carey sister cities.

[11:57] Our president Pamela Huff is currently in DC at the 70th anniversary event where she'll be joining the national board of directors.

[12:03] On behalf of organization, thank you to the town and the mayor for this proclamation and for your continual support you have provided the last 36 years.

[12:10] For those who don't know us,

[12:13] Cary Sister Cities is a local chapter

[12:14] of Sister Cities International.

[12:17] We organize cultural events and exchanges

[12:19] based around our sister cities in France,

[12:21] Canada, Turkey, Taiwan, and Ireland.

[12:24] In a time of increased political tension

[12:25] and xenophobia, creating international connections

[12:28] and celebrating our shared humanity

[12:29] is more important than ever.

[12:31] These programs create meaningful impact

[12:33] in our community, from creating

[12:34] educational opportunities for our youth

[12:36] to generating tourism and economic

[12:38] like opportunities for our businesses.

[12:41] I encourage everyone to come out to one of our events,

[12:43] grill out a barbecue picnic

[12:44] and learn about French local government

[12:46] or come to our stage at lazy days

[12:48] to watch a Taiwanese cooking demonstration.

[12:50] It's amazing the things you learn

[12:51] and people you meet when you get involved.

[12:53] I look forward to our continued work with the town

[12:55] and thank you again for your support.

[13:05] Our third recognition is for the attendees

[13:08] of the Cary Public Service Academy

[13:10] who are joining us this evening.

[13:12] The Cary Public Service Academy was created

[13:15] to help high school students learn how local government works while inspiring

[13:20] them to explore careers in public service and community leadership. I had the

[13:26] opportunity today to speak with this outstanding group and I was genuinely

[13:31] impressed by their thoughtful questions they ask and their enthusiasm for

[13:36] serving their community. I also know that many of our council members look

[13:41] forward to celebrating with them at their graduation on Friday. These students

[13:46] represent a bright future for Cary and I'm excited to see the impact they will

[13:53] have on our community in the years ahead. We are honored to have them with us

[13:58] tonight and I would ask that the students of the Cary Public Service

[14:02] Academy please stand and be recognized.

[14:06] Thank

[14:18] you. We now move to the fourth

[14:22] item which is the interim town manager's update and I'll recognize Mr. Overton.

[14:27] Thank you, Mayor. I want to take a moment to update our residents on the two work sessions

[14:31] we've had prior to tonight's regular meeting. As a reminder, work sessions are live streamed

[14:36] and recorded and available on the town's YouTube channel as well as CaryTV11 for those

[14:41] of you that do not have cable TV. Earlier tonight, staff provided an update on several

[14:47] utility items including work on a new utility billing system, long-standing year-round water

[14:53] conservation efforts in our wastewater study with Holly Springs.

[14:56] We also talked about transit, in particular the bus rapid

[14:59] Thanks for watching, and I'll see you in the next video.

[15:00] Transit system, as well as our multimodal center project and the downtown circulator route.

[15:06] Tuesday night, we received our monthly revenue report and spent the rest of the meeting pretty

[15:10] much focused on council priorities, council initiated items, and process options for addressing

[15:16] some of the recommendations in the Womblebond Dickinson Report, which is next on tonight's

[15:20] agenda. So I'll stop talking here and turn it back over to you, Mayor.

[15:24] Thank you, Mr. Overton. And a great segue to our fifth and final item is the

[15:29] presentation of the Cary Town Council Special Commission Report by Wambl-Bonn Dickinson.

[15:36] And first, I'd like to recognize our town attorney Lisa Glover to introduce the item.

[15:41] Thank you, Mayor. It's my pleasure to introduce John Cook of Wambl-Bonn Dickinson. John has

[15:46] worked with many North Carolina local governments and their governing boards throughout his

[15:51] career and has a deep understanding of local government operations. Wambl-Bonn Dickinson

[15:57] has completed its comprehensive review and investigation of the town, initiated after

[16:01] the resignation of the former town manager, and John is here to present the findings.

[16:06] This review was commissioned by Council to develop a fuller understanding of what occurred

[16:10] and identify the changes needed to strengthen the organization. Its recommendations provide

[16:15] Council and staff with a clear framework for improving accountability, oversight,

[16:20] and workplace governance. And with that, I'll turn it over to John.

[16:25] Thank you, Lisa. Good evening, Mayor and members of the Council. I'm John Cook and I'm here

[16:33] on behalf of Wumblebond Dickinson. Thank you for the opportunity for us to be able to share

[16:38] the key aspects of our report that you commissioned us to do to look into three aspects of town

[16:46] operations. I have about 10 slides to give you a preview of that. The slides will discuss

[16:55] four principal matters. What we were asked to examine, how we approach the work, what

[17:04] we found, and most importantly, perhaps, what we recommend the town council to consider

[17:10] going forward. If you have questions during the presentation, feel free to

[17:15] interrupt me. You don't need to hold your questions to the end.

[17:24] This slide is an

[17:25] overview of our assignment and I'm going to be pretty quick going through it. You

[17:30] ask us to do an independent evaluation and report and you did not nor did the

[17:44] You challenged us to look at three aspects of town government, first procurement card

[17:51] transactions and reimbursements, which simply are the town credit card transactions and reimbursements.

[18:00] The financial reporting of information to the town council and the workplace environment.

[18:07] You specifically designated an examination period from July 1, 2021, which was the

[18:14] beginning of your fiscal year for that year to November 20, 2025, when you place the former

[18:22] town manager on administrative leave.

[18:26] You challenged us not only to investigate facts, but to come up with recommendations.

[18:33] The investigation of facts are the easy part, the recommendations of the hard part.

[18:38] This

[18:42] slide again simply tells you what our scope, review, and investigatory approach was.

[18:50] And there's four points on here.

[18:52] Number one, we did not duplicate the efforts of any state agencies,

[18:57] but we cooperated with all state agencies that were looking at similar matters.

[19:03] We did what lawyers do. We investigate, gather facts.

[19:07] Then we look at rules and then we draw conclusions whether those rules were applied to those particular

[19:16] transactions and events appropriately and as intended.

[19:22] Our information, we gather from multiple resources.

[19:26] We add documents, we retain a private accounting firm to help us sort through the PCAR transactions

[19:34] which involved 28 different people who were designated to look at those transactions.

[19:43] We gathered information from both current employees and former employees.

[19:49] And because there were no surveys of employees during the examination time or really for the last 10 years,

[19:58] We looked at a post-examination survey of the employees conducted in the first half of 2026

[20:08] to give us an indication of what the workplace environment might have been during the examination period.

[20:18] So as I said, we did what lawyers do, and we came up with some findings and conclusions,

[20:24] and they're pretty straightforward.

[20:25] forward. We looked at many, many PCAR transactions and reimbursements. With the use of this Forvis,

[20:36] which is an international accounting firm and their forensic team, they quickly identified

[20:42] those transactions that they felt were most suited for further consideration. And those

[20:49] transactions related to Mr. Stiegel's transactions. And the reasons they were selected was because

[20:55] because they were generally the larger transactions that were handled during the P card transactions.

[21:02] But they also sorted that information into categories that were kind of interesting.

[21:09] First they sorted those categories in which Mr. Stiegel used the P card to charge expenditures

[21:20] on weekends.

[21:22] Second one that they looked at was those P card transactions in which he did not provide

[21:28] a receipt.

[21:29] And third, they focused on P card transactions that were goods were delivered to his home

[21:38] and not to Town Hall.

[21:41] And those were the things that stood out in their mind as things that require further

[21:47] examination.

[21:48] regulation. Finding those facts led to simply looking at your policies. Your policies and

[21:57] rules and regulations which are captured in standard procedures adopted by town managers

[22:06] told the staff how to process PCAR transactions.

[22:13] Those rules and regulations were adopted

[22:16] by town managers prior to Mr. Stiegel.

[22:20] Mr. Stiegel did not update those rules and policies.

[22:25] And in looking at those rules and policy, it is our conclusion

[22:28] that they were sufficient to give the staff opportunity

[22:33] to require further documentation from Mr. Stiegel,

[22:37] to require receipts, to question transactions,

[22:42] to audit those transactions and to decline to pay them.

[22:48] So we concluded that was an operational failure.

[22:52] And by operational failure, we simply mean there were rules in place

[22:57] that in our judgment were not applied as intended.

[23:01] And so that rule failed.

[23:05] We also, turning to the financial reporting aspect of it,

[23:09] But there were two things that were pretty clear in the facts.

[23:12] First of all, that you had adopted a fund balance policy, that that fund balance policy was

[23:18] violated in fiscal year 2023, and Mr. Stiegel had misstated that it had not been violated

[23:25] to you.

[23:27] That is an operational failure.

[23:30] Secondly, the town council had already adopted a policy regarding an internment audit and

[23:38] audit function in town hall and when Mr. Stiegel came to town there was an

[23:45] internal auditor on staff. Mr. Stiegel eliminated that position and there really

[23:52] wasn't a position designated to handle this internal audit function that was

[23:57] required by your policy. Your policy also requires that you have the chance

[24:03] It's to ask this person who is to do these audits to go and look at very aspects of town

[24:10] government and it just wasn't there.

[24:12] So that's another operational failure.

[24:16] And furthermore, just looking at it broadly, Mr. Stiegel managed the channels that were

[24:23] reporting financial information to you.

[24:27] And key financial information in our judgment was not reported to you.

[24:31] Obviously, that's a judgment call.

[24:33] You can't report everything, but what are the key things?

[24:37] We think budget changes, real property purchases, tuition payments, those things should have

[24:43] been reported to the full council in a timely and complete and accurate fashion.

[24:50] So there were operational failures there.

[24:53] With regards to workplace environment, this is the hardest one for us to investigate

[25:00] survey, because there were no surveys during this period of time, because workplace environment

[25:06] always is a matter of perspective, and so we gathered the best information we could.

[25:15] We focused in part on the survey conducted in 2026 after all of these matters came out,

[25:24] In that survey, there are three things that stood out in our mind.

[25:30] First, 44 percent of current employees agree or disagree somewhat that decisions are driven

[25:37] by organizational priorities and professional judgment.

[25:41] This kind of echoed in some of the information we had gathered from others.

[25:45] But also in that report, a very large majority of those employees are fulfilled by their

[25:54] job, they enjoy serving the public, they appreciate being good public servants, and they enjoy

[26:01] a good relationship with their direct supervisors.

[26:08] From former employees, some of who left the town happily and some who left the town

[26:14] less than happy.

[26:18] We just gathered a general view that things were not fully transparent.

[26:24] There were people who questioned the fairness of the decisions, and there were some people

[26:29] who believed that decisions were made based upon Mr. Stiegel's favoritism of particular

[26:36] individuals.

[26:39] The information that we found was that Mr. Stiegel continued to report

[26:42] to the council that the workplace environment was great.

[26:46] We as lawyers don't know how you do that if you don't have a survey, but regardless,

[26:53] at the best, that information was either partially true and not completely accurate.

[27:01] So we suggest that the weight of the evidence here is that the town's policies that you

[27:08] You adopt, which require fairness in employment decisions and practices were not fully adhered

[27:17] to.

[27:18] You require merit-based decisions for employees.

[27:22] That does not seem to have been true always.

[27:27] This was another operational failure.

[27:32] That was the easy part of the report.

[27:34] That's what we do as lawyers all the time.

[27:36] Go find facts, look at the law, and conclude what happened.

[27:41] But you ask us to do more than that.

[27:43] You ask us to look for recommendations.

[27:46] And when you look at recommendations,

[27:48] you have to figure out what's the cause.

[27:54] See, if you don't know the cause,

[27:56] then your recommendations don't fit the problem.

[28:00] And you can look at these individual operational phages

[28:04] and say, well, they're just individual instances.

[28:08] But in all of these operational failures,

[28:12] Mr. Stiegel played a role directly, indirectly,

[28:17] or somehow contributed to these operational failures.

[28:21] That led us to a really interesting question,

[28:25] and that was, well, if it was just Mr. Stiegel

[28:28] and it never could happen again,

[28:30] and Mr. Stiegel is no longer a town manager,

[28:33] Well, we don't need to make any recommendations because it's all been fixed.

[28:40] This led us to looking at something that's different than what lawyers typically do.

[28:47] We looked at the structure of the council manager form of government.

[28:52] And in doing that, we concluded that there's a vulnerability in the structure.

[28:58] It's very important to say that every human structure has vulnerabilities because humans

[29:07] are involved.

[29:09] It doesn't say the structure is defective or it can't be fixed, it's just a vulnerability.

[29:16] And a vulnerability usually arises from a trade-off.

[29:20] A trade-off is where you've made a particular decision to cure one thing by creating something

[29:28] else and that is exactly what happened with the council manager form of government.

[29:37] So turning to the structural vulnerability slide,

[29:43] what we found and this is we found

[29:46] by surveying academic literature across the country.

[29:51] is that we found that the council manager form of government originated in the early 20th century.

[30:00] He was designed to cure a particular problem. The particular problem that they were concerned

[30:06] about was that elected officials were using their position to control operations and employment

[30:15] decisions for their personal or political gain. That was the problem these reformers were

[30:21] trying to solve with the council manager form of government. So what the form of government

[30:27] it does is it walls you off. It's intentional. It walls you off from day-to-day operation

[30:36] employment decisions. That actually is a great comfort if you're ever on the other side

[30:41] of the wall as an employee, by the way, and I've been there. But that's the system.

[30:47] And so, well, once you wall off the elected body, who's going to do it? Who's going

[30:53] to run the place? Well, they had a great confidence in their professional, non-partisan manager.

[31:01] And they have vested great authority and discretion in that official to run the government. And

[31:12] at that time, they thought running the government was kind of like running a clock. You know,

[31:16] just you just just put in rules and it all go very smoothly over the years

[31:22] people have realized that there are some issues with that the effect of that and

[31:28] this is what the literature says is that there's a partnership between the

[31:33] elected body and the town and the town manager and as a partnership it builds

[31:42] this notion of trust. You expect the manager to bring everything that would be

[31:49] important for your decision-making and your supervision of the manager because

[31:54] only you have authority to supervise the manager to you as your trusted

[31:58] partner.

[32:01] The problem in the system is that as long as that is the trusted

[32:06] partner-manager functions that way, then you will have the information to help make the

[32:15] right policy decisions and supervise the manager appropriately.

[32:20] But here, many of the questionable matters related to Mr. Stiegel's own personal actions,

[32:28] and he had management and control over the reporting channels of information to the

[32:34] Tele-Council. That's the vulnerability. That's what needs to be fixed in our judgment. And

[32:43] that which leads us to the recommendations that we are making tonight or in our report

[32:49] actually.

[32:54] So our recommendations themes are three-fold. One is transparency and oversight.

[33:03] financial accountability, workplace culture, and governance.

[33:09] I'm just going to hit on one of these because it really is a principal assumption that we made, presumption we made in selecting recommendations.

[33:24] We think transparency in government is critical for effective and efficient government operations.

[33:30] If there had been increased transparency in those situations, these operational failures

[33:38] would have come to your attention quicker and you've been able to deal with them in

[33:44] a more efficient way.

[33:46] We think transparency also addresses the two things that need to be strengthened, which

[33:52] we need to strengthen safeguards and we need to strengthen reporting channels of

[33:57] of financial information to you.

[34:01] We favor transparency over rules if it's a tie.

[34:11] So with regards to transparency and oversight

[34:14] in the P card reimbursements,

[34:16] the first two recommendations are good examples

[34:21] of transparency.

[34:23] We think if you just publish the P card

[34:27] and reimbursements quarterly for the manager, the direct reports to the manager, and the

[34:35] department heads, you will have a self-regulating effect. If you know it's going to be public,

[34:41] you will always be reminded that you need to be a good steward. So instead of saying,

[34:46] you can't do something, encourage better behavior. Same thing with publishing travel,

[34:53] lodging meals and education expenditures. These are always going to be hot buttons,

[34:59] people are always going to wonder whether that travel was better than it needed to be.

[35:05] Publish them quarterly. Let the public know, let the council know.

[35:11] Third, adhere to the state RLTRS recommendations. Those are good ideas.

[35:15] And then finally, because these P-CAR transaction rules had not been updated regularly, we think

[35:25] you should require the manager to review and update those regulations every three years.

[35:32] These kinds of, you know, how expenditures occur have changed so much over time that

[35:40] you really do need to update the policy every so often.

[35:45] With regards to the financial accountability, again, we're a big fan of written notice and

[35:54] information provided to the council that is mandated not relying on the good faith of

[36:00] the manager, but to require the manager.

[36:03] And in all of these matters, you could have people sign certifications to this information,

[36:08] right?

[36:08] If you're worried that you need more than one person, you know, indicating it's correct.

[36:14] But require written notice to the council before any appropriations out of fund balances are made.

[36:21] Mandate reporting, discretionary budget changes at the next regular council meeting.

[36:27] And on that point I'd say, think about it, your most powerful financial tool is your adopted budget.

[36:34] There are very few things staff can change that you adopt.

[36:39] Think about it, you adopt the law, they can't change it, only you can change it.

[36:43] But they have to have some flexibility here to amend and change the budget.

[36:49] But you should be on notice of all of them and have a chance to play a role in that.

[36:54] Require advance notice of real estate purchases exceeding $300,000.

[36:59] dollars. Again, real estate purchases are hot buttons. Everybody has an opinion what

[37:06] a piece of property is, and they're usually not the same. So real estate purchases also

[37:13] typically involve local residents. So it's good for you to have that information.

[37:20] Reinstate

[37:21] the town auditor position, which you have already done in your budget. Study best

[37:27] practices in budget development, review technology procedures.

[37:34] This brings us to the workplace culture and governance.

[37:41] And we have 21 recommendations, which is quite a handful, but of the ones that we think

[37:49] are most important and probably most difficult, and the ones that the state auditor did

[37:54] not make any recommendations on, we think workplace culture and governance are important.

[38:02] Engage an outside consultant for an annual review, for the annual performance review

[38:07] of the manager, and we actually said the town attorney and clerk, so everybody was

[38:12] treated fairly.

[38:14] The current system is that you are using a human resources department, but the human

[38:20] And that saves money, saves money, but the Human Resources Department is supervised by

[38:26] the manager.

[38:27] It puts them in an impossible position and I'll also say, if you're a staff person who

[38:33] has information you think you needed to know, they would be very reluctant to report it

[38:40] to human resources because they know human resources answers to the manager, excuse

[38:45] me.

[38:45] So this is one of those examples, we don't like many of them that cause a little extra money.

[38:52] In bed, a code of ethics in your contracts and have an annual certification.

[38:58] There is a code of ethics. All professionals need to be reminded.

[39:02] We all are reminded almost annually of our ethical responsibilities.

[39:09] It's nothing unusual about this, but the reminder is helpful.

[39:13] I amend the personnel ordinance to take out the language that says that the manager is

[39:19] the final authority for all activities of all employees.

[39:23] One could read that to say, regardless of the rules, he gets direct or she gets direct

[39:30] staff to do what they want to do.

[39:33] That is not part of the council manager form of government.

[39:36] That gives him more authority than title.

[39:39] Restore standard personnel best practices. Exit interviews were eliminated by Mr. Stiegel.

[39:46] Need all open job postings, formal interview processes, objective bonus systems.

[39:53] Adopt a whistleblower protection policy against retaliation. I believe that might be on your agenda tonight.

[40:00] right?

[40:03] Require written notice and justification for the change of positions, change of positions,

[40:13] and elimination of positions, and the repurposing of positions. Direct the town manager to review

[40:21] the size of the town manager's office. It became much larger under Mr. Stiegel than

[40:27] by historic standards.

[40:30] Mandate regular confidential employee surveys

[40:34] at least every three years.

[40:35] So you have the data from the whole organization.

[40:40] Evaluate the cost advantages and disadvantages

[40:42] of a confidential employee tip line.

[40:46] Evaluate the cost advantages and disadvantages

[40:49] of using the organizational ombuds program for employees.

[40:53] It is used by some organizations

[40:55] and they like that. It gives employees a safe place to bring up conflicts and try to resolve them.

[41:03] Then develop a menu of employee engagement initiatives, share with employees for feedback, strengthen the relationships

[41:10] among employees, departments, and the manager's office.

[41:15] This brings me, as I know you're happy to know, my last slide.

[41:20] But this may be the most important slide of all.

[41:27] First, in terms of a path forward, affirm the foundation.

[41:32] Cary is financially strong.

[41:35] Despite all of these operational failures that we found,

[41:40] the town remains financially strong.

[41:43] It's rated by all bond agencies with triple A ratings for its general obligations,

[41:49] bonds, revenue bonds for water and sewer and it gathers national recognition all the time.

[41:59] I was listening to the Parks and Recreation presentation and that was just another example.

[42:05] The town is financially capable.

[42:09] You have employees who are committed to serving the public.

[42:14] I can't tell you how important that is, I'm sure you know.

[42:17] So these findings do not define you, but they are an opportunity to make town better.

[42:26] Enhance the council management model as we've talked about.

[42:31] Too much authority, discretion, and control concentrated in a single office without adequate

[42:37] safeguards and reporting channels creates a vulnerability and a problem.

[42:44] them.

[42:46] Act promptly on low-cost recommendations. We try to find some low-cost recommendations

[42:52] like just publishing information. Even if they don't work, they haven't cost you much,

[42:58] but they are kind of an experiment to see whether that's helpful or not. And then for

[43:06] those things that are going to take more time, develop a deliberate plan that requires

[43:13] further study and then you can just check them off. And I know you're working on that.

[43:18] And then finally, rebuild confidence through transparency. Respond in a measured, lawful

[43:24] and forward-looking manner. The council's response to these findings in our view is

[43:29] itself an opportunity for the town to demonstrate its commitment to transparency and accountability.

[43:37] And none of you asked me questions, so I guess it worked pretty well.

[43:44] I am here if you have any further questions.

[43:46] Questions about counsel?

[43:50] I have a question, if you wouldn't mind.

[43:53] First of all, thank you so much for that, Mr. Cook.

[43:55] I mean, when this all came to light, we were angry, we were upset,

[44:01] And, you know, it's been helpful as we tried to work through a plan, a short-term plan.

[44:09] It's helped me significantly to know that we would be able to develop a long-term plan

[44:13] based off of the findings that you would bring to us in the Office of the State Auditor.

[44:19] And, you know, without that sort of short-term, long-term approach, I don't know that

[44:24] this would have been a manageable situation.

[44:26] That's just, that's how I see it.

[44:28] So I just want to thank you for this and how thorough it was.

[44:32] One thing I want to clarify for me and for those that are obviously paying a lot of

[44:37] attention of the 24 million in peak hard purchases, for example, that were, well, I believe that's

[44:45] the last two years of peak hard purchases.

[44:47] That's what that total was.

[44:49] That's been very widely reported and widely discussed.

[44:52] Can you give us an idea of what percentage of those P card purchases?

[45:12] So, you put your finger on a really important fact analysis and gathering. So, the Forbus accounting

[45:24] funding firm had all 24,000, right? You use, you use analytics.

[45:31] Millions.

[45:33] 24 million, yeah. You said 1,000.

[45:36] Sorry.

[45:37] You said 1,000, it was a million, but we knew it, Jimette.

[45:39] All right.

[45:42] My apologies. So they had this large number of transactions to look at.

[45:48] They use analytics and their judgment. And going through that, many of those transactions

[45:54] are $10, $15, $20, and they're all over the organization.

[46:04] It's not worth one's effort to go and try to dig into 10, $15, $20 transactions.

[46:13] So, please, please, please, ladies and gentlemen, please.

[46:21] So they used the analytics to focus in on the larger transactions.

[46:30] Most of those and many of those were Mr. Stiegel's, either his personal transactions,

[46:37] transactions he had other people submit on his behalf or transactions he encouraged.

[46:45] Then they looked at Mr. Stiegel's transactions themselves and those numbers are in our report.

[46:51] and they focused in on the three things I talked about.

[46:55] You don't have a receipt.

[46:57] You need to have a receipt under the system.

[47:00] You are ordering lots of material and goods on weekends from Amazon.

[47:10] You are having a number of those goods delivered to your home

[47:17] instead of to your to town hall keep in mind that Mr. Stiegel has not shared any

[47:26] information with us he's not shared any justification in part because it's been

[47:32] publicly announced that somebody's looking at him law enforcement's looking

[47:36] at him so he's our lawyer he's not going to share any information but based

[47:40] upon the information we have we would say those are enough red flags

[47:46] for staff with the existing policy to say, no receipt, we're not going to process it.

[47:57] On weekends, explain it to us. On delivery to your house, explain it to us.

[48:05] None of that seemed to have occurred. It seemed to be that they just processed it

[48:10] because it was the town manager's expenditures.

[48:13] to choose.

[48:14] Thank you.

[48:15] That's helpful.

[48:17] Ladies and gentlemen, please, please, please, ladies and gentlemen, please, please, other

[48:27] questions from council members?

[48:31] Also I have a question, one mentioned just now about the misuse of P cards.

[48:38] So all the recommendation to change already in your recommendation, right?

[48:42] So all the actions we need to make already in place.

[48:49] Yes.

[48:50] Right.

[48:51] Your entire report is online.

[48:53] My entire report, our entire report, it wasn't just me, I want to be clear about that.

[48:58] And our entire report is online.

[49:02] And it has the details that I've tried to skim through in terms of numbers and things.

[49:09] I want to thank you for presenting some of the options for the council recommendations.

[49:15] I want to kind of ask our interim time manager Russ.

[49:21] I believe we do have a dashboard where we have shared all of this now.

[49:25] So it's going to be tracked for completion on that dashboard with the ETA and different

[49:31] milestones.

[49:32] Is that correct, Russ?

[49:33] Yes, that's correct.

[49:34] Yes.

[49:34] So everyone can follow.

[49:36] It's these recommendations plus the ones from the state auditor plus the ones that came directly

[49:44] from the council members.

[49:46] Am I saying it?

[49:47] Jerry Beckert and Womble Bond Dickinson.

[49:50] Okay.

[49:50] Great.

[49:50] Thanks.

[49:51] Other thoughts and questions?

[49:53] Also, I want to add that as council together, we want to see not only the recommendations

[50:03] to be completed, but we can do more.

[50:06] And under the Interim Town Manager, Russ Overturn's leadership,

[50:10] I don't see anything related to Russ,

[50:14] and that's giving me confidence we can change,

[50:18] and we can make a lot of changes in the short-term and long-term

[50:22] and continue to do that.

[50:24] And I feel thank you, John,

[50:25] and thank you all the efforts of our residents.

[50:28] You have the right to say anything,

[50:30] or we are the one going to change and you will see our actions and the first action is online

[50:37] moving forward dashboard include everything if anyone has any question in a specific question

[50:45] we can answer. Thank you. Thank you.

[50:51] Other questions? Comments?

[50:54] I have a comment I'd like to share as well if everybody's questions have been answered.

[51:00] And this isn't on the substance of what you were saying necessarily, but I do want to share

[51:08] that, you know, we've discussed at great length that there have been significant operational

[51:13] failures, P card transactions, fund balance policy, the internal audit function.

[51:21] I was quite angry about that when I found out that that role had been removed.

[51:25] And I said this the other day, I was doing sort of an impromptu interview, but I understand

[51:33] that you have to say something seven times to make sure the message gets across.

[51:38] So I'm just going to continue to repeat myself.

[51:42] We've got a lot of policies in place.

[51:44] They were, in a lot of circumstances, violated.

[51:48] What I see is one of our biggest problems here is we have a lot of policy.

[51:53] We do need some more.

[51:54] We need some updates, but policy can be ignored.

[51:58] I shared, yes, or Tuesday night, we need to see the behaviors coupled with that policy.

[52:04] And then I like the way you put it, Mr. Cook, we need to have that transparency.

[52:09] So what we need is to be able to point somewhere and say anybody that wants to see it can see it,

[52:16] because I think what happened here was these operational failures were,

[52:20] they were able to happen and happen for far too long because there was no sunshine.

[52:27] So that, I really hear you on the transparency part of that.

[52:31] A lot of times when we talk about transparency, we treat it as though, as long as we as a

[52:36] council or leadership, as long as we, you know, say things into a microphone that

[52:42] we're being transparent.

[52:43] But what I believe is true transparency to get us out of this mess is to really

[52:49] make sure that information is public at every turn. And so I would support any and all ideas

[52:56] that anybody has to be able to do that. And what we really need is teeth. And I think

[53:03] that's not necessarily dangling punishment over anybody's heads. I don't think that

[53:08] modifies behavior. But I do believe the teeth when it comes to enforcing these policies

[53:14] is going to be that level of transparency, and I think it's absolutely critical.

[53:20] And in the spirit of transparency, I'll repeat again what I said into news cameras on Tuesday.

[53:26] It would be inappropriate for me to sit here and say, I don't have any culpability.

[53:32] It is, I am part of the machine of failure here, and as an individual, as a council

[53:40] member that represents, everybody here in Cary, you know, it wasn't good enough to say

[53:46] that that wasn't inappropriate. I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to participate

[53:51] in that or take that thing or go on that trip. What I needed to do was shout from the rooftops,

[53:58] stomp my feet and make a really big deal. And I failed to do that. And I can tell

[54:02] you going forward, you definitely have a council full of people here that are going

[54:06] to stomp their feet and shout from the rooftops.

[54:17] And it's also my job to sit here and take the heat.

[54:21] So that's what I'll continue to do, but I just want to share that.

[54:27] Any other questions or comments from Council?

[54:30] Thank you, Mr. Cook.

[54:31] Thank you.

[54:32] We'll now move to our next item, Public Speaks Out.

[54:36] We've included instructions for speaking at this forum online

[54:40] and on the printed agenda.

[54:41] There were three opportunities to participate in Public Speaks Out through written comments

[54:46] by calling in or by attending here in person tonight.

[54:50] And if you are here in person, I would like to ask you to take seats to the right if you

[54:55] can.

[54:56] Otherwise, please line up as your name is called and the next speaker is called.

[55:01] That will help things move along quicker.

[55:04] Public Speaks Out speakers have three minutes each for their comments and may speak on

[55:08] any town-related topic, as long as it's not a public hearing. There's a three-minute time

[55:13] limit that will be enforced. We have a timer on the podium. It starts off with a green

[55:18] light. When it turns yellow, you have 30 seconds remaining. And when it's expired,

[55:22] it will flash red. At that point, not to be rude, but to be fair to all of our speakers,

[55:27] I will interrupt you and let you know that your time has expired.

[55:31] I would ask speakers to be respectful in their comments and direct those comments

[55:36] to the entire council and not to an individual.

[55:40] I would also ask that everyone in the audience

[55:42] please understand that this is a business meeting

[55:44] and respect that this is a business meeting.

[55:47] Do not applaud, make remarks from your seats.

[55:49] Use props or do anything else

[55:51] that may distract from the meeting.

[55:53] So now is the time for public speaks out

[55:55] and I'll call on the clerk to share

[55:57] the number of written comments

[55:59] and call on any registered speakers.

[56:01] We have no call-in speakers, six written comments,

[56:05] and 11 in-person registered speakers.

[56:08] Our first speaker is Nancy Kay, followed by Marie and Syria.

[56:22] Sadly, I'm not a public speaker, so you just have to bear with me.

[56:25] Could you move to your left, please?

[56:26] You'll have to bear with me.

[56:27] I apologize in advance.

[56:32] So good evening.

[56:33] My name is Nancy Joyner Kay, and I live at 105 Ashford Court.

[56:37] I want you to know that I love the town of Kerry,

[56:40] and I'm excited about the mixed-use housing being created

[56:43] under the Imagine Carry Plan, using public and private financing.

[56:51] I'm here for Amberwood. Yes, I am.

[56:54] That's a public hearing. You'll get more time.

[56:56] Wait, wait. Okay, so you're okay.

[56:58] You're okay. You're okay. It's hard to understand.

[57:00] Thank goodness. I bought myself some time. Okay, so you'll call me back.

[57:04] Okay, great.

[57:05] So please, please, please.

[57:08] All right. Our next registered speaker is Marie and Sarah, followed by Rob Jones.

[57:20] Good evening. My name is Marie and Sarah. I live at 407 Clearport Drive, Cary. I have lived here for approximately 20 years.

[57:29] I'm an attorney for approximately 40, and I've worked for 20 years in local government.

[57:34] I want to thank the town of Kerry employees, not the ones that went to the $4,164 dinner,

[57:43] not the ones that have been eating lunch every day on the counter.

[57:49] I want to thank the employees that make this and do frontline workers that make it a good

[57:55] place to live.

[57:56] The state auditor's report said it was a culture of hostility and deference to leadership.

[58:01] He reported that multiple employees spoke of having observed something they thought they

[58:05] should report, but they had no one to report it to.

[58:09] Of Kerry's 189 policies, only 15 applied to employees.

[58:14] One EEO statement mentions reporting a complaint to the town manager.

[58:18] How did that work out for Kerry employees?

[58:21] There is no policy addressing harassment, anti-retaliation, whistle-blower protection

[58:26] are among the policies recommended by the state, but I want to add one more.

[58:30] or a grievance process.

[58:32] All of our neighbors, city of Raleigh, city of Durham,

[58:35] county of Durham, county of Wake that you sit in

[58:37] have a grievance process.

[58:39] You can cure it tonight.

[58:41] Womble recommended an abuzzment.

[58:43] Name outside counsel to hear grievances

[58:46] that can be investigated.

[58:48] If they are the direct reports,

[58:50] you can send those to outside counsel.

[58:52] I hope you adopt all of the recommendations

[58:55] of the state auditor and the Womble report,

[58:57] including, where in the Womble Report recommended examining the structure of the manager's office,

[59:04] which was, quote, expanded in size and reach, put another way, and overstaffed top-heavy

[59:11] division or another extravagance.

[59:15] The culture of extravagance revealed in the State Auditor's Report has brought widespread

[59:20] public disgrace to the town and to the Democratic Party that I am proud member of that I have

[59:29] volunteered many, many years in these 20 years and I wish and I call upon the Legislature

[59:36] would respond by passing a local act to allow a recall election.

[59:42] 24,

[59:52] 2021, 2025, we're complicit by accepting expensive dinners, car service.

[1:00:00] Travel, tuition, Ray-Ban sunglasses, and so much more, all of which contradicts the most

[1:00:07] recent, feigned ignorance of excesses, as reported by the State Auditor. I do not agree with Republicans

[1:00:18] very often, but the State Auditor nailed it.

[1:00:22] Yes.

[1:00:23] I'm sorry to inform you that time is expired.

[1:00:26] That's right.

[1:00:26] Thank you so much.

[1:00:37] Our next speaker is Rob Jones, followed by Sharon Tobias.

[1:00:54] Our next speaker is Rob Jones, followed by Sharon Tobias.

[1:00:59] Rob Jones here.

[1:01:03] Go to the next speaker, please.

[1:01:05] Sharon Tobias.

[1:01:13] Well, that's a tough act to follow, but I'm going to try.

[1:01:17] I have my notes, but I think I'm going to table it.

[1:01:19] But I went down the rabbit hole of the P card, and probably the most oversight right now I

[1:01:24] can find is the three minutes I'm limited to.

[1:01:29] Anyhow, with all due respect about the Womble Report, as somebody who is based in science,

[1:01:34] research, and evidence-based practice, when you limit what you ask for, you get back what

[1:01:39] you're looking for.

[1:01:41] So when you limit to 28 employees, you didn't find the $750 Lugano's charge on

[1:01:48] Sunday. You didn't find the Pinehurst Brewery. You didn't see almost 800,000

[1:01:55] worth of Amazon charges.

[1:01:59] Hang on, I'm nervous.

[1:02:04] But how do you control that? Is it

[1:02:07] P cards linked to personal Amazon accounts? How do you know what the town

[1:02:12] bought stays in the town? How do you know the $120,000 spent at Michael's

[1:02:18] stayed in the town. How do you know $700,000 spent multiple times at Lowe's

[1:02:26] stayed in the town. It's not the way a P card system is designed to work.

[1:02:31] You've got split charging on multiple purchases at a printer.

[1:02:37] I'm sorry, I'm so nervous. To the tune of $8,008 for four purchases,

[1:02:43] I can just pose the question, but most likely was that hiding some sort of non-compete where

[1:02:49] you didn't put it out for competitive bidding.

[1:02:53] How do you control and leverage your buying power?

[1:02:56] 55 P cards went dark when Sean Steele stepped down.

[1:03:01] But with all due respect, you only get what you want to find unless you go into it

[1:03:08] with an open mind and say, investigate all the P cards.

[1:03:11] And that's why I had to table my notes when I heard there was no concerning other transactions.

[1:03:18] What about the Venmo to a person to the tune of $9,000?

[1:03:24] Woo! That means somebody's P card linked to their personal Venmo.

[1:03:30] There is a lot more work to do because your taxpayers can't continue to shoulder the burden.

[1:03:35] We can't – you

[1:03:43] know, you – good question, and I wish I could remember more of the totals.

[1:03:48] Do you realize you have a $32,000 transaction to give cards?

[1:03:53] Who's – who's got the log?

[1:03:56] But my point being is your problem transcends 28 people.

[1:04:01] There's people out there using Amazon cards that – that's my Yankee accent – Cods

[1:04:07] that you can't track.

[1:04:08] Where are the receipts?

[1:04:10] I've requested the receipts for Pinehurst Brewery because it's the same

[1:04:14] P-card on Saturdays. Do you, oh shoot, $8,000 food purchase at Lazy Days. Done at

[1:04:21] the food trucks. Thank you. Our

[1:04:30] next

[1:04:37] speaker is Michael Anderson followed

[1:04:39] by Linda Shaw.

[1:04:58] Mayor, council members, Dancing Queens. My name is Michael

[1:05:04] I am a Wake County resident, a local small business owner, tax professional, and an enrolled

[1:05:09] agent.

[1:05:10] I'm not just speaking for myself here tonight.

[1:05:12] I am representing the dozens of hardworking taxpayers who trust me with their tax return

[1:05:16] preparation, planning, and representing them before federal, state, and local taxing

[1:05:20] authorities.

[1:05:21] Every single day I sit across my desk from clients and advise them that they must

[1:05:25] follow the rules, pay their fair share of taxes, and frankly, you all are making

[1:05:29] me look like an idiot.

[1:05:29] it. I tell my clients to scrape together their tax payments just for you to take

[1:05:34] their hard-earned money and blow it because you are too lazy, too entitled,

[1:05:37] or too incompetent to do your jobs.

[1:05:42] Let's talk about your priorities. You jacked up

[1:05:44] property taxes on my clients by 5% and then had a gall to push for another

[1:05:49] 11% hike. Meanwhile, you sit back and collect an $800 monthly car

[1:05:53] allowance for a part-time gig. Taxpayers are essentially paying for your car to

[1:05:57] drive around town, you are actively failing to manage. Throw in your $2,400 annual cell

[1:06:03] phone and internet allowances, and it's no wonder you are completely clueless that the

[1:06:06] town's emergency reserves had tanked below mandatory minimums. You are too busy caching

[1:06:11] your own checks to look at the balance sheet. You expect us to believe you are just helpless

[1:06:15] victims misled by a mastermind town manager? It's pathetic. The auditor's report proves

[1:06:21] you were not victims. You are willfully ignorant enablers.

[1:06:27] The report explicitly

[1:06:28] In these states, you deliberately delegated financial matters away so you wouldn't have

[1:06:32] to deal with them.

[1:06:33] Under this government, you are an elected body.

[1:06:36] You set the policies.

[1:06:37] You're supposed to see the operations.

[1:06:40] You couldn't be bothered to oversee the budget, but you definitely found time to spend over

[1:06:44] $121,000 on video production at your Wilmington retreat, including a $34,000 documentary about

[1:06:51] your own choreographed Dancing Queen dance video.

[1:06:55] Let's not forget the $37,000 of public money quietly siphoned off to pay for a sitting

[1:07:00] council member's graduate tuition.

[1:07:03] You tell the town you didn't know what was happening, give us a break.

[1:07:07] You just didn't care as long as you got your paycheck.

[1:07:10] Playing dumb is not a defense.

[1:07:12] It is a confession of gross incompetence.

[1:07:15] You abandoned your fiduciary duty because acting as a mindless rubber stamp was easier

[1:07:19] than doing the work you were elected to do.

[1:07:21] Stop passing the buck.

[1:07:22] If you are a disgrace to public service in this town if you lack the spine to read a budget and protect this town

[1:07:30] Or if you are in that Dancing Queen video resign immediately

[1:07:38] Otherwise my clients and I will gladly throw you out at the ballot box. Thank you

[1:07:45] Our next

[1:07:51] speaker is Linda Shaw

[1:07:54] Our next speaker is Linda Shaw followed by Andrew Haas

[1:08:06] Okay, we'll go to Andrew.

[1:08:10] I'm sorry.

[1:08:11] Linda is for the Amber Woods, so we'll move her to that list.

[1:08:14] And our next speaker is Andrew Haas, followed by Elliot Tardiff.

[1:08:23] Dear members of the Town Council and citizens of Cary,

[1:08:27] my name is Andrew Haas.

[1:08:28] Last month I stood here and used this public forum in a way that dishonored you.

[1:08:33] The purpose of this meeting and the convictions I claim should shape my life.

[1:08:37] I also spoke in a way that was deeply disrespectful to many of our immigrant and Hispanic communities.

[1:08:44] For that, I'm sincerely sorry.

[1:08:47] You provided this forum so the citizens can contribute to the good of our community.

[1:08:52] Instead of doing that, I used my time in a way that created confusion, division, and

[1:08:56] hurt.

[1:08:57] I misused both the opportunity and the trust that comes with speaking before this council.

[1:09:02] And I apologize.

[1:09:04] In a misguided attempt to express support for law enforcement officers, I chose to read

[1:09:10] the script of a satirical video.

[1:09:12] I wanted to communicate one message, but instead communicated something very different.

[1:09:18] My words contributed to rhetoric that many understandably heard as racist and demeaning.

[1:09:23] While I did not write them, those were the words I chose to speak, publicly, and

[1:09:28] I take full responsibility for them.

[1:09:31] I acted without wisdom, without counsel, and without prayer.

[1:09:35] Looking back, I see how pride convinced me that being provocative would accomplish something

[1:09:41] good.

[1:09:42] Instead, it revealed poor judgment and caused real harm.

[1:09:46] As a Christian, I know Jesus commands us to love our neighbors.

[1:09:49] This concludes speaking about every person with dignity and honor because each person

[1:09:54] bears the image of God.

[1:09:56] My words failed to reflect that calling.

[1:09:58] They reflected frustration instead of love and they produced a vision where I should have

[1:10:03] sought understanding and peace.

[1:10:05] I'm deeply grieved that I have had to confront the painful reality that what I said does not

[1:10:11] reflect the man that I want to be or the Lord I profess to follow and that realization

[1:10:15] has been humbling.

[1:10:17] I apologize to this council, to the immigrant and Hispanic communities, to my church, to

[1:10:23] my family, to the ministry where I used to serve and my co-workers, to my friends

[1:10:27] and to anyone who is hurt or disappointed by what I said.

[1:10:32] I cannot undo my words, I cannot erase the hurt they caused,

[1:10:36] I can only acknowledge my failure, ask for your forgiveness,

[1:10:41] and commit myself to speaking with greater humility, wisdom, and love in the future.

[1:10:46] Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to return today.

[1:10:49] I remain grateful to live in a country where we have freedom to speak

[1:10:54] and where we also have the responsibility to own our words when we fail. Thank you

[1:11:00] for your time. May God bless the town of Kerry.

[1:11:10] Our next speaker is Elliot Tardiff

[1:11:12] followed by Evan Crockett.

[1:11:20] Before I begin I'd like to say I'm right at three

[1:11:22] minutes so please. Members of the Town Council, Mr. Overton, Mr. Mayor, good

[1:11:28] to see you. Peace be with you and yours. My name is Elliot Tardiff, Kerry

[1:11:32] residents since 2014. My thoughts are rising out of the published reports of recent weeks or two

[1:11:38] voluminous to put into three minutes, which is why I've provided them to you on the written record.

[1:11:43] Dissembling the sanitary language of your response and getting down to the dirty truth,

[1:11:48] it wasn't just systems that failed to prevent this. Laws did. People did. You did. My trust

[1:11:54] in government has been broken now at the local level too. Holistic changes discussed in the

[1:12:02] to restore it. Here's two. First, the town manager town council model of government has been rightfully

[1:12:09] scrutinized, but state law section 160A of the general statutes specifically stipulates this

[1:12:17] structure for all local governments. As we have seen here and elsewhere, this model imbues too

[1:12:23] much power unto a person who is accountable to too few and unaccountable to too many.

[1:12:28] If Mr. Boliek were to perform the same rigorous review he did here unto all other local governments

[1:12:35] across the state, not one excluded, how many more carries would he find?

[1:12:40] This model excludes the weight of the townspeople and is too vulnerable to corruption, and Joan

[1:12:46] Street must reform Section 160A accordingly.

[1:12:51] I have written my representatives urging them to do exactly this.

[1:12:55] This email is attached to my written comments.

[1:12:57] Second, this is a town of nearly 200,000 people, staffed by hundreds, all charged with

[1:13:03] prosecuting the town's annual budget, now over $570 million annually in rising, same

[1:13:09] as our property taxes, but overseen by a deus of part-time elected leaders.

[1:13:17] While this is the rule, not the exception, I ask you, would these events have been

[1:13:22] nipped in the bud if you had a regular presence in Town Hall?

[1:13:24] As it was, the genesis of these revelations came from staff abandoning the chain of command to demand your audience.

[1:13:34] The business of this large dynamic town commands its elected leaders to have a full-time commitment to the same.

[1:13:41] This means making Kerry's elected leaders full-time employees of this town and with a regular presence in town hall.

[1:13:49] Work posture begets culture, and it starts with you.

[1:13:53] 12 minute response times, the botched trolley car purchase, books and documented theater of self-indulgence.

[1:14:00] These are part and parcel to your records, for which there will be accountability and judgment come Election Day,

[1:14:06] but are also broader indictments on the part-time nature of this arrangement.

[1:14:11] Time is the only true fix.

[1:14:14] Thank you for yours.

[1:14:16] Our

[1:14:20] next speaker is Evan Crockett, followed by Hanna Williams.

[1:14:23] Williams.

[1:14:35] Good evening. My name is Evan Crochet. I'm a Cary resident and owner of Bicrochet

[1:14:40] Media Lab, a local video production company. A Facebook post I made recently led to great

[1:14:45] conversations with council members, and I thank council members Craig and Cohn Johnson

[1:14:49] for taking the time to share their insight on my post. I'm standing here today to talk

[1:14:53] about restoring public trust after the state auditor's report as it relates to my expertise

[1:14:57] and video production. The absurdity of those fine

[1:15:00] The findings drove me to put my thoughts on record today regarding the $35,000 taxpayer

[1:15:04] funded documentary, Dancing Queen, a Case Study. I can't believe I just said that.

[1:15:10] Taxpayers should have never foot the bill for an ego-filled project like that. A half-hour

[1:15:14] video like that proves a culture of self-importance has taken root in upper management and in

[1:15:20] the town's leadership. Top administrators living in privilege while overworked residents

[1:15:25] and staff suffer in silence in an

[1:15:28] unaffordable, increasingly unafforable town.

[1:15:31] As a documentarian, I know what video production costs

[1:15:35] in time and resources.

[1:15:37] Watching leadership boast on camera

[1:15:39] about taking time out of their work day

[1:15:41] from their job shows me just how disconnected

[1:15:43] they are from people like me.

[1:15:46] It is truly an unbelievable display of government waste

[1:15:49] and everyone involved should be ashamed and embarrassed

[1:15:52] that a high-level production was wasted on this venture.

[1:15:56] The former town manager was shown the door several months ago,

[1:15:59] but look who's who still in their roles,

[1:16:01] even though they were heavily featured in the documentary.

[1:16:05] Several of these people earned well over $200,000 a year.

[1:16:12] There is a glaring double standard.

[1:16:14] If a worker making Wake County's average of $70,000

[1:16:16] committed these ethics violations and breaches,

[1:16:19] they'd be fired on the spot.

[1:16:22] My question is very simple. Who else knew about the cost? $35,000 is six

[1:16:28] months of wages for the average resident, spent on 30 minutes of vanity.

[1:16:32] Whether through active participation or willful ignorance, failing to ask where

[1:16:37] that money went isn't a lapse in judgment, it's total negligence of

[1:16:41] duty. When people who are hired as legal, financial, strategy, and HR guardrails

[1:16:47] participate in this nonsense, it's like referees putting on jerseys to

[1:16:51] play for the team. There's nobody left to enforce the rules. Anyone complicit should

[1:16:55] do the right thing and resign from their roles. And I welcome, I welcome the ongoing criminal

[1:17:04] investigation and I hope the truth prevails. And I'm not here just to scold. We need

[1:17:09] to reallocate this marketing budget to establish something I'm calling the Cary

[1:17:13] Community Storytelling Initiative. Just as live streaming council meetings yield

[1:17:18] a massive return on trust. Building an infrastructure for local storytelling is the logical way to

[1:17:23] spend marketing dollars in the town of Cary. Instead of handing out unmonitored credit cards

[1:17:28] with zero oversight, let's create a quarterly application process for local media LLCs to

[1:17:33] compete for roles like this. Pair creators with high school classes for youth mentorship

[1:17:38] and point that production back to our town. Thank you. Thank you for your time.

[1:18:03] Our last

[1:18:03] Council, Madam Clerk,

[1:18:08] I am profoundly disappointed at what I have engaged in this Council and

[1:18:20] I have given my advice privately, which recently has one ignored. And much of what you are

[1:18:28] witnessing tonight I forewarned you about and I gave steps on how to mitigate

[1:18:36] some of what you see tonight but this is what your hand is called for. I

[1:18:43] adamantly object to the myth being propagated that the substance of the

[1:18:51] investigation can be placed entirely on the former town manager.

[1:19:02] It is very

[1:19:03] truthful that he must answer for his own conduct, but placing all responsibility on one former

[1:19:13] employee would be a broad leap of Olympic proportions.

[1:19:21] We should call him King Sean because he had unilaterally authority that I had never seen

[1:19:27] before.

[1:19:28] The mayor, you have been in office for 20 years.

[1:19:32] It is not only an insult to these great residents of this incredible town, but only your own

[1:19:41] self to say that you can be in office with that much experience and allow something like

[1:19:48] that to take place.

[1:19:49] The practical reality is that the report identifies challenges, operational dynamics, insufficient

[1:19:58] efficient performance metrics, limited counsel oversight, and also what I wanted to mention

[1:20:06] is this conference Tuesday, it was a tragic lack of humility within a system that allowed

[1:20:16] these circumstances to continue. The auditor, and I think we all need to applaud him, that

[1:20:20] That was an unbelievable, and I am in research science, too, the detail to that investigation

[1:20:30] needs to be admired and commended, specifically when he mentioned this council, this is the

[1:20:41] quote from that report, the investigation, enabled this approach and allowed it to continue.

[1:20:47] you. That was in the report of the state auditor. To my expectation, the town must now focus

[1:20:55] on building out the oversight function, which was mentioned, establish additional safeguards

[1:21:00] against waste and retaliation, and ensuring that no official may act unilaterally outside

[1:21:07] clearly defined parameters. I respectfully request a specifically scheduled town hall

[1:21:14] style meeting where residents may confer directly with the mayor and council receive

[1:21:21] substantive answers and evaluate the town's corrective mandate before public

[1:21:27] confidence continues on a downward trajectory.

[1:21:30] Thank you.

[1:21:38] That's all our rest your speakers.

[1:21:40] How much time is left in public speaks out?

[1:21:41] We started at 7.24 and we are currently at 7.50.

[1:21:45] Okay.

[1:21:45] If you would like to speak at public speaks out, now is your opportunity.

[1:21:49] Please.

[1:21:49] I would ask that you line up to the right there.

[1:21:54] When you come to the podium, please give your name.

[1:21:58] Hi, I'm Mark Zumbach. I'm a Cary resident since 1967.

[1:22:05] I won't reiterate a lot of the things that have been said already,

[1:22:09] but I do want to make a comment about moving forward.

[1:22:14] And that is what I see as one of the biggest problems with Mr. Siegel is that he was a superstar.

[1:22:24] And the council was blinded by a rainmaker and a superstar, and they turned a whole lot over to him.

[1:22:31] And I just really want to caution we not do that moving forward.

[1:22:36] Look within the town.

[1:22:37] We don't need to go outside and find some flashy person who's shown up in the media

[1:22:42] and bring them in and hand over the keys to them.

[1:22:47] And then the other point I wanted to make is of the findings, I think the most horrifying

[1:22:54] finding is that the surveys of town employees were stopped 10 years ago.

[1:23:00] And I mean, every place I've ever worked, that's an annual must do.

[1:23:06] And it's not just been a culture of privilege in the town, but it's been a culture of bullying.

[1:23:14] And I know that, and I'm not an employee.

[1:23:17] And I know if you were not kissing Sean's hem, if you were not his psychophant, you

[1:23:24] were on the outs.

[1:23:26] And it's ugly.

[1:23:28] It's really, really ugly.

[1:23:30] And I just really want to encourage.

[1:23:32] I want to add one more thing, Town Council, implement a policy of taking an employee to

[1:23:40] lunch every Friday.

[1:23:42] You know, I mean, they don't see you guys.

[1:23:45] I've talked with several town employees who said the last mayor they saw walk through

[1:23:51] the halls was Glenn Lang.

[1:23:55] So you're not making yourselves known in the town halls here.

[1:24:01] and it shows. Thank you.

[1:24:17] Good evening, Mayor Weimbrecht and members of the Council. My name is Todd McGee and

[1:24:21] I am a 22-year resident of Cary. Like many, I am concerned about what has happened in

[1:24:26] the last year in our town government. Those concerns grew when the State Auditor's Report

[1:24:30] came out and revealed widespread problems that go much further than an out-of-control

[1:24:35] town manager. I am here tonight because I fear the town council will try to use

[1:24:40] Sean Stiegel as a convenient scapegoat and not address some of the issues I would like

[1:24:46] to draw your attention to.

[1:24:48] First is the sheer number of town employees who have P cards.

[1:24:52] Second is the lax oversight of these cards.

[1:24:55] Third is the gross misuse of these cards by employees who should know better.

[1:25:00] I have no doubt Sean set a terrible example, but that doesn't excuse those who followed

[1:25:05] his lead.

[1:25:05] Apparently, many employees were, and perhaps still are, convinced town P cards are their

[1:25:12] personal get-a-lunch-free card.

[1:25:14] The auditor's report noted many trips to Sassoul, Academy Street, Bistro, and Kraft Public

[1:25:19] House.

[1:25:20] Favorite locations for town employees are the Peck and Plume Restaurant and Scratch

[1:25:25] Kitchen and Taproom.

[1:25:26] Both were visited 128 times over the two years covered by the auditor's report.

[1:25:32] In other words, 11 times a month, the tax-paying citizens of Cary provided a free lunch for

[1:25:39] employees at either of those two restaurants.

[1:25:41] This is unacceptable.

[1:25:43] The Town of Cary's P-Card policy states, items and or services to be purchased are for the

[1:25:49] official use of the Town of Cary.

[1:25:51] I would like to know how paying for employee meals at upscale eating establishments

[1:25:55] can be considered an official use.

[1:25:57] If you look at the auditor's report, Card 529 belonged to Stiegel.

[1:26:02] In the two years, he racked up almost $3,000 in non-travel-related meals.

[1:26:08] However, he was not the worst defender.

[1:26:10] Card 614 racked up almost $6,000 in local dining expenses with 72 different visits.

[1:26:18] That's three per month.

[1:26:19] The charges are often for more than $100, meaning at least three or four employees were in on this.

[1:26:24] Many speakers here are expressing their shock and anger.

[1:26:28] I share those sentiments, but I am not here just to vent.

[1:26:31] I am here to ask you to take two actions.

[1:26:33] First, adopt a policy banning any employee from paying for any meal

[1:26:38] with the town P card effective immediately.

[1:26:41] Second, I ask you to review the local dining expenses found on these P cards

[1:26:45] back to January 1st, 2021,

[1:26:47] and require employees to reimburse the town for these costs

[1:26:51] unless they can provide

[1:26:56] documentation to prove they're served at public purpose.

[1:27:01] Tax dollars are not a luxury to spend on personal vanity projects like videos or books

[1:27:06] or for extravagances like limousines and luxury suites, nor are they to be used to pay for employees' dining habits.

[1:27:12] There seems to be a sense of entitlement among some staff, and on behalf of Kerry's tax-paying citizens,

[1:27:18] I ask you to help correct this behavior. Thank you.

[1:27:39] Good evening, Town Council.

[1:27:40] My name is Mark Stolman.

[1:27:42] I'm a Cary taxpayer and a resident in downtown Cary.

[1:27:48] I'm recently retired as a 30-year North Carolina

[1:27:52] certified public accountant.

[1:27:54] I also sat in your chairs for 10 years

[1:27:58] in the town of Morrisville recently.

[1:28:01] You know, in the old days,

[1:28:03] when town folks were really upset,

[1:28:05] they'd come to town hall with torches and pitchforks.

[1:28:09] I'm coming forward with something a lot more scary.

[1:28:12] That's my tax bill I just received from the town of Kerry.

[1:28:20] I think most people accept taxes as a way of life.

[1:28:24] They accept paying them every year.

[1:28:27] But they should really be focused on the three P's of municipal government, planning,

[1:28:32] parks and rec, public safety, and public works.

[1:28:37] Outside of that, you should really question what your money is being spent on.

[1:28:41] You know, it's not okay to buy Ray-Ban sunglasses, $200 steak dinners, banana foster desserts,

[1:28:50] and gourmet popcorn on our dime.

[1:28:55] It's not okay to have the taxpayers fund your graduate tuition.

[1:29:04] It's not okay to spend a million dollars plus on unsellable land because it's your favorite

[1:29:10] apartment developer who's selling it.

[1:29:14] It's not okay to fund an egotistical book about how great your town manager is and is

[1:29:21] a blueprint for how to misspend millions of dollars.

[1:29:25] It's also not okay to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a Dancing Queen video and especially

[1:29:31] not okay to spend more money on a video on how you made the video of Dancing Queens.

[1:29:39] This is merely the tip of the iceberg.

[1:29:41] I think if you go back enough years, you're going to find that the abuse was in the tens

[1:29:46] of millions of dollars.

[1:29:48] If you think this is okay, I think you should rethink your public service career.

[1:29:57] Just think of the money that you could have spent.

[1:30:00] On raises for your police and fire. Think about the tax rates that you could have lowered if you had not spent this money.

[1:30:07] The town manager did not do this on his own. There are a lot of town leaders and staff leaders that let this happen.

[1:30:18] Sadly, sadly there have been no formal apologies, only tone deaf, tax increases. One council member said recently,

[1:30:27] Finally, I regret that I didn't ask harder questions.

[1:30:29] These are not hard questions.

[1:30:31] This is common sense.

[1:30:33] A tough question is, why haven't we seen more retirements and firings and recognitions?

[1:30:40] Please do a better job with our tax dollars.

[1:30:43] I'm retired and on a fixed income, and I can't pay for any more of this nonsense.

[1:30:48] Thank you.

[1:31:05] Good evening, Mayor and Council.

[1:31:07] I'm Renee Miller.

[1:31:08] And

[1:31:12] unfortunately, I have been ill the past month, but I did have an opportunity to review

[1:31:18] some of the auditor's report.

[1:31:21] And one item in particular jumped out at me, one that you have particularly benefited

[1:31:26] from.

[1:31:27] And that is the $802 a month that you receive in car allowance.

[1:31:34] That equals, at the current rates, 1,055 miles we are paying for you to drive.

[1:31:41] In one case, it means 1,758 trips to Town Hall for one of the council members.

[1:31:53] I believe that for three months, you should vlog your miles just like any other employee

[1:32:01] would, and those logs should be publicly posted and then averaged to reset this amount

[1:32:07] to something that's more reasonable.

[1:32:10] Thank you.

[1:32:11] How

[1:32:15] much time do we have left?

[1:32:17] We are at 8 o'clock, so 24 minutes.

[1:32:19] If you'd like to speak, if public speaks out, we...

[1:32:23] How about a budget board?

[1:32:24] Now is your opportunity.

[1:32:26] Anyone else if public speaks out?

[1:32:31] Any topic that's not a public hearing.

[1:32:35] Is Amber Wood a public hearing?

[1:32:36] Yes, Amber Wood is a public hearing.

[1:32:39] Anyone else?

[1:32:44] Okay, we'll close public speaks out.

[1:32:46] We'll move to the consent agenda,

[1:32:49] which is item four, if you're following along,

[1:32:52] for the benefit of people watching our meeting streaming,

[1:32:55] I will take a moment to review our consent agenda items.

[1:32:59] One vote approves these items.

[1:33:01] On the consent agenda, we have approval of minutes,

[1:33:05] resolution approving Act 41 amendment

[1:33:07] to Chatham-Carrie Joint Land Use Plan,

[1:33:10] resolution calling for a public hearing

[1:33:13] for 25A09 Jacobs Creek,

[1:33:16] week bid award for the Swift Creek Pump Station Electrical Improvement Project, request for

[1:33:22] referral for further consideration from Planning and Zoning Board, update policy 143 rules and

[1:33:31] procedures for the Kerrytown Council, Salesforce licensee purchase for fiscal year 2027,

[1:33:45] and

[1:33:45] meeting schedule. Would council members like to pull any of these items for discussion?

[1:33:50] If not, I would entertain a motion to approve the consent agenda.

[1:33:54] So moved.

[1:33:55] Second.

[1:33:56] There's a motion and a second discussion. All in favor please say aye.

[1:33:59] Aye.

[1:34:00] Any opposed? Motion carries unanimously. And that takes us to public hearings.

[1:34:05] Same rules apply to public hearings that apply for public speaks out except speakers will

[1:34:10] We'll now have five minutes each for their comments.

[1:34:13] Our first and second item will be presented together,

[1:34:16] 26A04, which is 719 Pitter-Sears Road annexation,

[1:34:22] and 26RA04, which is 719 Pitter-Sears Road rezoning.

[1:34:29] Principal planner Rachel Smith will introduce the item

[1:34:33] and council will not take action on this item tonight.

[1:34:36] It will be referred to our planning and zoning board

[1:34:39] for their review and recommendation and return to council in a few months, Ms. Smith.

[1:34:45] Thank you. Good evening, council. This is a public hearing on a request to annex and

[1:34:51] apply initial carry zoning to approximately 5.9 acres at 719 Pittered Sears Road. The

[1:34:59] property is not in carries extraterritorial jurisdiction, so concurrent annexation of

[1:35:04] property is required with the rezoning.

[1:35:07] Staff recommends that action on the proposed annexation, 26A04, be deferred until the rezoning

[1:35:14] returns to council for final decision.

[1:35:18] The site is located in Chatham County on the south side of Pittertsiair's Road, approximately

[1:35:23] a quarter mile east of the American Tobacco Trail.

[1:35:27] The site is west of the Carolina Preserve at Amberley Neighborhood and is north and

[1:35:32] east of property owned by the Army Corps of Engineers.

[1:35:38] Kerry's GIS does not indicate stream buffer is located on the site.

[1:35:43] Field determination of such features is required at the time of development plan review.

[1:35:51] The Streetside Trail was recently constructed along the site's frontage on Pittertears

[1:35:55] Road as part of a capital project.

[1:35:59] Pittertears Road is identified as a two-lane collector on Kerry's planned roadway widths

[1:36:04] map.

[1:36:07] The site is currently within Chatham County and is zoned to Chatham County Residential

[1:36:12] One and the applicant proposes an initial carry zoning of Residential 12 Conditional

[1:36:19] Use or R-12CU.

[1:36:24] The zoning conditions include limiting the development to a maximum of 11 detached dwellings.

[1:36:30] Every home will have at least a 2 car garage wired for 60 amps to support EV charging

[1:36:36] and the developer will dedicate right-of-way and improve Pitard Sears Road to all applicable standards.

[1:36:45] A preliminary analysis against the Imagine Carry Community Plan found the policies from multiple chapters apply,

[1:36:52] along with guidance from the Chatham Carry Joint Land Use Plan.

[1:36:57] The Joint Plan generally recommends lower density moving from east to west towards Jordan Lake,

[1:37:03] lake, supported by corresponding land use sub-areas.

[1:37:07] The subject site is in the low-density residential sub-area, which recommends one to two gross

[1:37:13] units per acre.

[1:37:17] The proposed density of approximately 1.86 units per acre fits this guidance.

[1:37:25] Surrounding low-density residential sub-area developments are under two dwellings per

[1:37:29] acre with higher densities in the medium density sub-area, which includes the Carolina

[1:37:35] to preserve an amberly neighborhood to the east and to the south.

[1:37:40] The staff report provides further detail on the joint plan and the surrounding development

[1:37:44] pattern.

[1:37:49] Policies within the live, shape, and enriched chapters of the Imagine Carry Community Plan

[1:37:54] also apply.

[1:37:56] We note that the area is largely surrounded by existing carry detached dwelling neighborhoods.

[1:38:02] The proposed use, density, and lot size may support the live and shape chapter's policies on infill development and appropriate transitions.

[1:38:13] For the enriched chapter, the commitment to wiring garages for future electric vehicle charging may support policies on sustainable energy practices.

[1:38:23] In terms of move chapter policies, the proposed rezoning includes a commitment to dedicate

[1:38:30] right-of-way and to improve Pittered Sears Road to all applicable standards.

[1:38:37] However, the developer has declined to offer two additional commitments recommended by

[1:38:42] staff that could help meet move chapter objectives for pedestrian safety, a prohibition

[1:38:48] on direct driveway access to Pitard Sears Road, which is a best practice for collector

[1:38:54] streets, and the provision of sidewalks on both sides of subdivision streets.

[1:39:04] A neighborhood meeting was held in April, and 16 members of the public attended.

[1:39:09] Questions and concerns were related to stormwater and drainage, perimeter buffers, tree clearing

[1:39:15] and conservation, street connectivity and the proposed housing product and development details.

[1:39:22] There have been approximately a dozen inquiries since the notice of the neighborhood meeting

[1:39:27] and then the notice of this public hearing, including very similar questions and concerns

[1:39:32] generally regarding the proposed density and lot sizes, the size and architecture of the proposed

[1:39:38] homes, stormwater connectivity and roadway improvements, preservation of trees, perimeter

[1:39:43] or buffers, and also the condition and maintenance of Pittered Sears Road.

[1:39:50] Notice of the public hearing was mailed to property owners with an 800 feet of the subject

[1:39:55] site.

[1:39:56] This exceeds the state and carries LDO requirements, and signs were posted on the site.

[1:40:05] This concludes my presentation.

[1:40:07] Andy Porter, the applicant's representative, is here to provide comments and following

[1:40:11] the public hearing, I am available for your questions.

[1:40:14] Thank you, Ms. Smith. I would invite the applicant forward at this time.

[1:40:28] Good evening, Mayor, members of Town Council. My name is Andy Porter. I'm vice president and a landscape architect with TMTLA Associates, a local landscape architecture and land planning firm in Durham.

[1:40:40] Also here with me this evening in the gallery we have Lauren Hicks. She's a town of Cary resident. She's also with Dunhill Investors property owner.

[1:40:49] Thank you, Rachel, for the great overview, covering the basis of the request to annex

[1:40:54] and apply tenecare initial zoning. I will keep my comments brief this evening. Rachel

[1:41:01] covered all the specifics, so I don't necessarily want to go over all that again. But I do

[1:41:07] have a few quick points to recap. So the property is one existing parcel on the east

[1:41:12] side of Pittard Sears Road is approximately 5.9 acres in size. There are no existing homes

[1:41:18] on the property. There are no existing wetlands or streams, which is unusual.

[1:41:26] The existing

[1:41:27] Chatham County zoning is R1, residential district one, and this is one of the last parcels

[1:41:32] on Pittard Sears Road that has direct frontage on Pittard Sears Road.

[1:41:38] As many of you may

[1:41:39] be aware annexation and initial zoning was recently approved earlier this year

[1:41:44] for the property directly north of pittered Sears Road. That property was

[1:41:50] re-zoned for R8CU with a commitment of no more of 23 dwelling units. I

[1:41:56] mentioned this for comparison of our current request. With annexation we're

[1:42:01] requesting zoning of R12CU conditional use district. The R12 zoning

[1:42:07] Everything requires a minimum of 12,000 square foot lot.

[1:42:12] And I also want to mention Dunhill Investor is the property owner.

[1:42:16] They are, they also develop the Dunhill subdivision that's on Pitterton's Road.

[1:42:21] Many of you may be aware, the lots within Dunhill, the existing subdivision are 12,000

[1:42:27] square foot plus or minus, so that subdivision is very comparable.

[1:42:32] and we anticipate an equal housing product to be constructed should this get approved.

[1:42:40] We held neighborhood meeting on April 15th and we've worked with planning and transportation

[1:42:45] staff on the current commitments.

[1:42:49] We look forward to work with staff and neighbors as we continue to move forward with the

[1:42:53] annexation and rezoning process and we're happy to receive feedback from town council

[1:42:58] and neighbors this evening.

[1:42:59] Thank you.

[1:43:00] I'm here for any questions.

[1:43:01] Thank you.

[1:43:03] So now is the time for the public hearing for the pittered seers rezoning and annexation

[1:43:09] and I'll call on the clerk to share the number of written comments and call on any registered

[1:43:14] speakers.

[1:43:15] We have no calling speakers, no registered speakers, and five written comments.

[1:43:22] And they were provided to counsel at their seat on the agenda and emailed beforehand.

[1:43:26] Thank you.

[1:43:27] If you are here and would like to speak at this pitter-sears rezoning annexation now is your opportunity and I would invite you forward

[1:43:36] Anyone to speak at this public hearing? Yes.

[1:43:46] Could you move to your left, please? Thank you

[1:43:48] I was one of the residents that got one of the notices and my home is located very close to this

[1:43:54] My biggest question about this. Could you give us your name, please? Yes. That's okay. Sonali

[1:44:01] So, Peter Sears Road is very narrow.

[1:44:04] There's not much except for where you walk on as a pedestrian.

[1:44:09] The area just below where this is being annexed is where the tobacco trail is.

[1:44:15] There are a lot of pedestrians over there, and people cross those areas a lot.

[1:44:21] My biggest concern would be whether the developer is going to invest in limiting the amount

[1:44:27] of traffic and making sure that pedestrians are safe in doing this type of, I know that

[1:44:35] in doing just a little limited amount of research, the type of zoning change that's going to happen

[1:44:41] makes it less restrictive for the developer.

[1:44:44] And so my concern would be what is going to be done to protect pedestrians.

[1:44:48] There's a lot of children that ride bikes in this area.

[1:44:53] So that would be my comment.

[1:44:55] Thank you.

[1:44:55] Anyone else to speak at this public hearing?

[1:45:01] Seeing no one, I'll close public hearing. Open it up to council members for questions or comments.

[1:45:06] I have a couple, but I guess they're mostly questions. Can you speak a little bit more about the Army Corps of Engineers

[1:45:15] and what can be built there, the land that's south of that?

[1:45:27] Or maybe it's east.

[1:45:28] So,

[1:45:35] shown in white, generally here is the Army Corps of Engineers property.

[1:45:40] And I think that the floodplain map would actually illustrate this pretty well as well,

[1:45:53] generally

[1:45:54] in here.

[1:45:54] So, you can see that this is floodplain in here, and then stream buffer running up

[1:45:59] in here.

[1:45:59] And so, that would typically not be a development parcel due to those environmental features.

[1:46:07] So are there extra requirements for the developer for runoff, for, you know, obviously our stormwater laws already apply, but is there anything special that needs to be done because it abuts the Army Corps land?

[1:46:24] So I was prepped by our stormwater staff for this potential question. So specifically it's not the Army Corps property in and of itself because it's owned by the Army Corps.

[1:46:36] I think the reason they own it probably is related to the fact that it's watershed.

[1:46:42] But the proposed future development, it's within the Jordan Lake watershed overlay.

[1:46:47] So the development will be required to capture runoff with an on-site stormwater control

[1:46:52] measure or SCM.

[1:46:55] That would also include all of the right-of-way improvements.

[1:46:58] There are also impervious limits established for the individual lots themselves.

[1:47:03] This will be recorded on the PLAT.

[1:47:06] It will depend a little bit on the size and type of the SCM.

[1:47:10] And also, runoff control will be required for the 1, 2, 5, 10, and 100-year storms as well.

[1:47:17] Does that help to answer your question?

[1:47:19] That's it, yeah.

[1:47:20] And we've received some complaints or concerns about the runoff that's currently happening up at our test.

[1:47:27] Can you speak to that?

[1:47:28] Is there additional planning going on?

[1:47:31] So I think you might be referring to a couple of written comments as well as a video that it was provided

[1:47:37] I have shared that video and actually

[1:47:39] watched it in real time with stormwater

[1:47:41] Staff so the development plan reviewers who are

[1:47:44] Responsible for reviewing any future developments such as this are aware of that video

[1:47:49] And will take into account the information that was provided by the residents both in written and visual form

[1:47:56] In their review. Thank you

[1:47:58] Other questions concerns

[1:48:00] I have a question. So I'm trying to look for that information on our town's website. I'm

[1:48:08] not able to find it. It's related to 25RAZ 05 Peter 3, Spitter Sears Road zoning that

[1:48:16] was approved about six months ago. And their project was very similar. It was all detached

[1:48:23] I believe it was 4.7 acres.

[1:48:28] I thought, and I see this on the map that you're showing right now on screen,

[1:48:34] and I could be totally wrong, and it could be totally, you know, I'm phasing out right now.

[1:48:39] But I thought it was R-12 CU that was approved.

[1:48:47] So the request actually started for TRCU at the time of public hearing throughout the process.

[1:48:53] It was revised to be R8CU, which you see on your screen.

[1:48:58] It's this property here in the green hatching that R8CU was the approved zoning for that property.

[1:49:05] Okay. And right next to it is a parcel that the builder at that time suggested that they will, they have purchased it and it will come back to the console.

[1:49:15] they planned to allocate that property for a stormwater resolution, you know,

[1:49:21] because at that time there was a lot of feedback related to stormwater. Is it

[1:49:26] possible that this applicant could work with that applicant and perhaps leverage

[1:49:32] some of that? We can certainly provide contact information for both parties.

[1:49:37] Okay. I don't have any more questions. Other questions, comments? I just wanted

[1:49:44] to urge the applicant to reconsider the two pedestrian safety recommendations by staff?

[1:49:53] Actually I have questions on those. So would the applicant put sidewalks in on one side only

[1:50:02] of the streets and the development? On local streets, carries regulations only require a

[1:50:08] sidewalk on one side. Okay. And can you tell me are there driveway cuts

[1:50:14] allowed in the recently approved, I believe it's the R8CU to the north, are there driveway

[1:50:21] cuts allowed in the rezoning we approved or whatever the zoning is on the properties

[1:50:29] near there? So I'm wondering how dissimilar it is for this property to be allowed to

[1:50:38] have driveway cuts on that collector road

[1:50:40] as opposed to the neighboring properties?

[1:50:42] So I just confirmed with Erin

[1:50:44] that there was no written zoning condition prohibiting

[1:50:47] the collectors, the collectors as a collector

[1:50:50] on both sides for both sides purposes.

[1:50:53] However, typically it is a best practice.

[1:50:55] We do, we have other regulations that tend to prohibit

[1:51:00] direct driveway access to collectors, but it can happen.

[1:51:04] It's not a direct prohibition,

[1:51:05] but there are certain standards that discourage them.

[1:51:10] Okay.

[1:51:12] Can you dumb that down for me?

[1:51:15] So they're technically allowed,

[1:51:19] but there's probably other requirements

[1:51:20] that make them exceptionally difficult to do?

[1:51:24] Good evening, Councilor.

[1:51:25] Thank you.

[1:51:26] Yeah, so depending on the type of collector,

[1:51:29] they are limited to the,

[1:51:31] what your friend says, driveway cuts.

[1:51:33] They are limited to the number of driveways

[1:51:35] or street accesses onto the collector.

[1:51:41] This is a NCDOT-owned road, and so they would have to get those permits through NCDOT.

[1:51:47] And we have been working with both of the applicants to make sure that their driveways

[1:51:54] align with one another.

[1:51:56] If this was a carry-owned road, would we be able to prohibit this development if

[1:52:01] it included driveway cuts onto that road?

[1:52:04] So our SIM collector requirements would apply here.

[1:52:06] Okay.

[1:52:07] So the exception here is primarily because it's an NCDOT road and we can't regulate

[1:52:12] driveway cuts on an NCDOT road in a project?

[1:52:16] Well we can guide that and work with NCDOT on what the appropriate safety access should

[1:52:21] be and we have our required standards which they would be required to meet unless in

[1:52:26] this instance there may be limited access to a remaining lot that may not be able

[1:52:32] to have internal connectivity,

[1:52:35] which is the condition that staff had mentioned.

[1:52:37] Okay.

[1:52:39] Thank you, I appreciate the clarity.

[1:52:41] And I did want to just bring attention to the questions.

[1:52:45] There's a, in the written comments that we received here,

[1:52:49] particularly Mr. Sullivan and there's some others,

[1:52:51] they're asking, I think, pretty reasonable questions

[1:52:55] that they'd like some answers to.

[1:52:57] I mean, again, obviously this is the public hearing.

[1:52:59] This is the ideal time to answer those questions

[1:53:01] And I don't know that all of these are, you know, when they ask about architectural requirements

[1:53:06] of the home.

[1:53:07] I think that's, you know, broadly part of our ordinances in general.

[1:53:14] But, you know, a timeline for development, I know that's not something that's typically provided

[1:53:18] to us.

[1:53:19] But what about maximum and minimum size of the homes to be built?

[1:53:23] Is there a minimum or maximum that's applied in a situation like this?

[1:53:28] That's typically not something that we would regulate just lot size right we would regulate lot size correct

[1:53:33] And I did respond to mr. Sullivan's email yesterday excellent

[1:53:37] Okay, thank you, and that's all I had I just you know the the I've driven on that road the driveway cuts give me pause

[1:53:44] That just seems like a really strange place

[1:53:48] For a driveway it you know

[1:53:50] It reminds me of probably some of the challenges people who have cuts on some of our other thoroughfares

[1:53:55] You know like Maynard or Walnut where they probably wish they didn't or it was a different road when they built it

[1:54:01] It was very different when they built it

[1:54:03] But we know this is a collector and we know the traffic isn't going to reduce on that

[1:54:07] I know councilmember Bonsol. You probably have a perspective on that as well

[1:54:12] I just don't it just doesn't seem like a good idea to me

[1:54:15] I agree with you and I think definitely some of these comments

[1:54:19] Thank you for pointing that out. I totally

[1:54:21] we faced out obviously clearly after the first section of our discussion, but there's another

[1:54:30] question that's here about the buffer.

[1:54:37] It's by Dennis Curtin. It's talking about tree

[1:54:43] preservation, tree planning, construction protection,

[1:54:50] and the buffer. Could you talk about the

[1:54:52] buffer. I don't know if you covered that in this presentation. Sure. They mentioned about

[1:54:58] 30-foot buffer for privacy. Yes, so several of the comments you have received talk about

[1:55:06] the Carolina Preserves buffer, so that's a 30-foot type A. Some of the emails said

[1:55:11] type A, but it is a type A. I confirmed that. So they have an existing 30-foot

[1:55:16] type A as well, they have a fence. The requirement adjacent to this property to be provided by

[1:55:24] this developer would be a 20-foot type B, so that is not as high of a planting standard

[1:55:31] as the type A. The type A is typically a little bit denser.

[1:55:35] But the applicant could voluntarily do 20 feet of type A for a combined buffer of 50

[1:55:41] feet of Taipei, which I think would probably go a long way with their neighbors to the east,

[1:55:49] right?

[1:55:50] They could.

[1:55:51] They could.

[1:55:51] They could do that.

[1:55:52] They could offer that.

[1:55:56] Other comments?

[1:55:57] That was, I had a similar comment, so thank you to my colleagues for beating me to it.

[1:56:02] It's just, I'm looking at the satellite map right now, and it looks like there's

[1:56:06] considerable tree canopy to the south and west of the parcel, and as I encourage

[1:56:12] every applicant being particularly mindful of preserving as much of that canopy as possible.

[1:56:17] And so maybe some voluntary conditions could help address that.

[1:56:22] Any other questions?

[1:56:24] One other.

[1:56:24] Is it possible to not have driveway cuts?

[1:56:31] For instance, is there enough width of the property so that the applicant could do a single driveway cut into a neighborhood?

[1:56:40] Or is the property just too narrow?

[1:56:43] I'm trying to understand what the need for potentially 11, at the most, 11 driveway cuts for the 11 homes?

[1:56:51] So I actually don't know that there would be room for 11 driveway cuts.

[1:56:56] We don't have a lot layout at this time in the rezoning process that will be provided at Development Plan.

[1:57:03] In my mind, I can see this laying out as a cul-de-sac street personally, but I don't have that knowledge.

[1:57:11] So I think that would be very helpful if the developer could come back, especially before the Planning and Zoning Board,

[1:57:18] if they could give the Planning and Zoning Board an idea of what that road, what that collector would look like.

[1:57:26] How many cuts are we talking about?

[1:57:28] Are we talking about a single, like you said,

[1:57:30] called the Sac Street for those 11 homes?

[1:57:33] I think it's really difficult to envision

[1:57:36] what that would look like.

[1:57:40] Anything else?

[1:57:43] Next step in this process is it will go to the Planning

[1:57:46] and Zoning Board for their review and recommendation

[1:57:49] and return to council in a few months.

[1:57:52] Our next public hearing is going to be a long one.

[1:57:56] So before we get started, I want

[1:57:58] I'm going to take a very short bio break.

[1:58:00] Jenny, on camera.

[1:58:03] Did he say body break?

[2:06:03] Meeting our council meeting at this time. Our next public hearing is for a resolution authority,

[2:06:11] Raleigh Housing Authority, to acquire and preserve mixed income housing and carry. Director of

[2:06:18] Planning and Community Development, Heather Willehan, will present the item, and council

[2:06:23] may take action, Ms. Willehan. Good evening, Mayor and Council. Tonight is

[2:06:27] a public hearing to consider adoption of a resolution authorizing the Raleigh Housing

[2:06:32] Authorities to operate and carry for the purposes of acquiring and preserving the affordability

[2:06:37] of 340 existing mixed income multi-family dwellings within the Amberwood and Lockmere

[2:06:42] community.

[2:06:44] The Raleigh Housing Authority has asked that we bring this request to you during their

[2:06:47] contract due diligence period, so we are here tonight to present that request.

[2:06:52] After the public hearing, Council may take action on this item.

[2:06:56] First, I'm going to talk a little bit about procedures, since this is unusual for

[2:07:00] us and then we'll specifically cover the request before you tonight.

[2:07:05] The Raleigh Housing Authority is a government entity created under North Carolina General

[2:07:09] Statutes Chapter 157 known as the Housing Authority Law.

[2:07:13] The law authorizes housing authorities to serve low and moderate income residents

[2:07:17] within adjacent municipalities but only if a community adopts a resolution authorizing

[2:07:22] them to do so.

[2:07:25] Adopting a resolution authorizing a housing authority to operate is a technical requirement

[2:07:29] and does not make council or carry a party to the acquisition or any related financing of the property.

[2:07:36] Additionally, properties must be in compliance with all zoning and town ordinances.

[2:07:41] Turning to Amberwood at Lockmere, this existing apartment complex was originally developed in two phases.

[2:07:48] The first phase in 1991 and the second in 1996.

[2:07:52] It offers one, two, and three-bedroom garden-style apartments with a total of 340 units.

[2:07:58] It's located at the intersection of Southeast Kerry Parkway and Piney Plains Road, about

[2:08:03] one mile southwest of the Destination Center at Crossroads and one mile east of the Destination

[2:08:09] Center at Kildare Farm Road and Trion Road.

[2:08:14] Amberwood is a part of the Lochmere community and is 96% occupied, so home to about 314

[2:08:20] Kerry households.

[2:08:22] Amberwood is considered naturally occurring affordable housing, or NOAA, meaning that

[2:08:27] But it is an unsubsidized, unrestricted property offering below-market rents.

[2:08:33] It currently rents at rates affordable to households earning approximately 52 percent

[2:08:37] of the Raleigh Carry Area Median Income, or AMI, which is about $57,000, with an average

[2:08:44] rent of $1510.

[2:08:47] This type of below-market, unrestricted residential property often serves as a community's largest

[2:08:53] supply of affordable housing.

[2:08:54] housing.

[2:08:56] And properties like this represent important affordable housing in Cary. In markets

[2:09:01] like ours where comparable rents are higher, a property is considered to have rent-headroom.

[2:09:09] Amberwood is being marketed with the value proposition that it has $200 to $300 in rent-headroom.

[2:09:18] It's impossible to predict every potential scenario, but two outcomes that properties

[2:09:22] companies like this often face and often face in a profit-motivated market bar.

[2:09:28] First, a private investor acquires the property, invests in renovations and increases rents,

[2:09:35] potentially pricing out existing residents, and permanently removing affordable housing

[2:09:39] units from the community's supply.

[2:09:42] Or two, the property declines through deferred maintenance as an owner realizes gains

[2:09:48] without reinvesting, resulting in substandard conditions and property

[2:09:52] value decline. Alternatively, if an entity committed to affordability such as a

[2:09:58] nonprofit, a government agency or a subsidized private owner recapitalizes

[2:10:03] the property, rents remain affordable to low- and moderate-income households

[2:10:07] while the property is maintained to continue offering a high quality of life

[2:10:11] and stability to residents. This is important because the residents of

[2:10:16] Amberwoods are critical members of our community.

[2:10:22] The Raleigh Housing Authority has proposed

[2:10:24] the following. That all 340 units will remain affordable for low- and moderate-income households

[2:10:29] or 80% of AMI, with at least 51% of the units as affordable for low-income households

[2:10:37] or 60% of AMI, with a maximum of 10% of the units potentially supported by project-based

[2:10:45] about your subsidy. They're also committed to minimizing rent increases over time to

[2:10:50] avoid displacing existing carry residents, as well as addressing deferred maintenance

[2:10:55] and investing in renovations of units as they naturally turn over.

[2:11:03] The assessed value

[2:11:03] of Amberwood out lock mirror is $64,485,515 with the 2027 carry municipal property tax

[2:11:13] of $236,984. While there are currently property tax exemption avenues that any owner could

[2:11:22] pursue, this resolution would allow RHA tax exemption through the Housing Authority statute.

[2:11:33] This is an important distinction because RHA's operating status is clearly defined under state

[2:11:38] law, whereas recently publicized charitable housing loophole could be available to any

[2:11:44] property owner, regardless of affordability commitments.

[2:11:51] You have heard us say that partnerships are at the heart of Cary's community plan and

[2:11:55] housing strategy.

[2:11:57] This proposal leverages a regional public partnership and furthers several Imagine

[2:12:02] Cary community plan live policies and Cary plan housing goals, including maintaining

[2:12:08] neighborhood character, encouraging the provision of affordable dwellings, pursuing

[2:12:13] regional and non-profit partnerships to meet housing needs and ensuring that all

[2:12:18] carry residents can enjoy the full benefit of Kerry's high quality of life.

[2:12:24] Please please. This concludes my presentation. A representative from the

[2:12:29] Raleigh Raleigh Housing Authority is here to address this request and

[2:12:33] following the public hearing I'm available to answer any questions you

[2:12:36] may have. Thank you Ms. Wheeling.

[2:12:42] Good evening. Mayor and members of the

[2:12:46] Town Council and citizens of Cary. My name is Ashley Lawmush Johnson. I am the CEO of

[2:12:57] the Raleigh Housing Authority. I'm going to just talk a little bit about the Housing Authority

[2:13:03] and about what our intentions are. I think Heather gave a really good presentation and

[2:13:12] explanation for what we are trying to do.

[2:13:18] As the staff person said, the Raleigh Housing

[2:13:24] Authority is required by state law to request authorization for this acquisition and that's

[2:13:32] why we are here.

[2:13:36] The Raleigh Housing Authority has served Wake County residents for decades.

[2:13:43] We, all of our programs, the Section 8 program, public housing program, and other housing programs,

[2:13:51] non-subsidized programs, have a preference for residents of all of Wake County.

[2:13:58] So we have served and we currently serve households throughout the county, from without the county,

[2:14:07] and also within the city limits of Cary.

[2:14:10] We have over 400 CARE residents on our waiting list and we serve 211 households in CARE through

[2:14:22] the Section 8 voucher program.

[2:14:25] The Housing Authority has a strategic plan adopted in 2024 that includes developing

[2:14:35] redeveloping our properties into mixed-income housing units, but also to acquire, through

[2:14:44] acquisition, acquire properties so that we can preserve the naturally-occurring affordable

[2:14:51] housing.

[2:14:52] The folks who live in these properties are people who work, who are teachers.

[2:15:00] Childcare workers and other essential workers who work in Cary. And we want to make sure that

[2:15:11] those people who are living there now will continue to be able to live there through the Housing

[2:15:18] Authority's efforts. The Raleigh Housing Authority is not completely unique, but of over 3,000

[2:15:27] housing authorities in the United States. We are one of less than 1% of the housing authorities

[2:15:36] in the nation that has a standard and poor's credit rating of A plus, not AAA like the city

[2:15:45] of Kerry or Raleigh. But this allows us to do things that we haven't been able to do

[2:15:51] in the past and that many cities can't do, we are able to invest in nationally occurring

[2:15:59] affordable housing to save those properties and preserve them for use by folks who now

[2:16:09] live in them.

[2:16:10] And that is what we intend to do.

[2:16:13] And we are here to keep Amber Woods in the way it is now in the people that it serves.

[2:16:25] Nothing will change.

[2:16:29] Please, please, or almost nothing.

[2:16:34] The rents will stay the same.

[2:16:36] The lease will stay the same.

[2:16:38] The management company will stay the same.

[2:16:41] The feel of living there will stay the same.

[2:16:47] please allow us to hear the speaker thank you what what may change is the fact

[2:16:55] that we will have and we'll be able to have the resources to address the deferred

[2:17:00] maintenance and improve the property above the conditions that there are

[2:17:06] there now

[2:17:11] so I will end my remarks there and if there are questions I

[2:17:15] I will entertain them, or my colleague,

[2:17:20] our directive acquisitions and strategic partnerships,

[2:17:24] Jason Morrow will assist with some of the...

[2:17:27] And our process is to hold the public hearing

[2:17:29] if we have questions for you after the public hearing.

[2:17:32] Okay, thank you.

[2:17:34] So now is the time for the public hearing.

[2:17:36] I'll call on the clerk to share the number of written comments.

[2:17:39] Call on any registered speakers.

[2:17:42] Yes.

[2:17:42] Yes. We are going to first start with the speaker that's on the line, Cassie Holt.

[2:17:50] Cassie, if you can...

[2:17:51] Are you not going to do written comments?

[2:17:52] Yes. They didn't give me the total, so I need a total.

[2:17:55] Go ahead.

[2:17:55] Real quick.

[2:17:56] Sorry.

[2:17:56] So we'll let Cassie go first. He's on the line. And then we'll do the written comments

[2:18:02] in the in-person speakers.

[2:18:03] Okay. Very good.

[2:18:04] Cassie, will you confirm that you can hear us and give your name?

[2:18:09] Yes. Good evening. My name is Kathy Holtz. I'm a resident of Lochmere. I've had the

[2:18:17] privilege of growing up in Cary, having attended Davis Drive Elementary, Westlake Middle School,

[2:18:23] and Middle Creek High School. I moved away from Cary for college and law school,

[2:18:28] but after living in Raleigh, decided to purchase my first single-family home in

[2:18:34] Lockmere earlier this year. I've worked extremely hard and extremely proud of

[2:18:41] this achievement. However, the proposed resolution regarding Raleigh Housing

[2:18:46] Authority's purchase of Amberwood at Lockmere is concerning to me on many

[2:18:50] levels.

[2:18:54] First, the proposed RHA resolution locked carry residents into a

[2:18:59] 30-year commitment that helps the city of Raleigh to the detriment of the

[2:19:03] town of Cary.

[2:19:05] All current RHA developments are within Raleigh,

[2:19:10] which makes sense because RHA's board of commissioners

[2:19:14] are appointed by the Raleigh mayor.

[2:19:17] A quick review of RHA's website shows

[2:19:21] that the organization's goal is to help residents

[2:19:23] of the city of Raleigh.

[2:19:26] Unlike Raleigh residents who can hold the mayor of Raleigh

[2:19:29] accountable for her appointments to the RHA board,

[2:19:33] the town of Kerry and residents of Kerry

[2:19:36] have no such appointment power to ensure

[2:19:39] that the town's interests are represented in RHA's decision.

[2:19:45] Having recently moved to Kerry from a property that

[2:19:52] was adjacent to RHA development, I

[2:19:56] can confirm that this decision will affect property values

[2:20:00] and resell abilities of homes in this area.

[2:20:05] Recently trying to sell a town home,

[2:20:08] I had several out-of-state buyers interested

[2:20:10] in purchasing the property until they found out

[2:20:13] that there was a RHA development across the street.

[2:20:18] Lastly, I want to conclude with urging this council

[2:20:21] to take a moment to seriously consider the circumstances

[2:20:24] surrounding this resolution.

[2:20:27] A lot of things have happened recently.

[2:20:29] the State Auditor's Office, the findings from Womblebond Dickinson regarding serious operational

[2:20:36] failures and lack of transparency.

[2:20:41] It was very concerning to me that I could not find information regarding this RHA resolution

[2:20:48] on the town of Terry website.

[2:20:51] It is unclear whether there have been studies or whether anything has been done to consider

[2:20:56] the property values of residents living in this highly residential area.

[2:21:02] And with undermined confidence in the completeness and reliability of the information provided

[2:21:10] by this council, I urge the council to, at a minimum, pause, take a moment, and delay

[2:21:17] the vote to ensure that such a major decision is not rushed.

[2:21:22] The timing, the optics,

[2:21:27] the lack of information could not be more suspect and I urge the council

[2:21:34] to vote no or a minimum delay this vote so that further due diligence can be made.

[2:21:40] Thank you.

[2:21:47] We had 144 written comments.

[2:21:51] They were provided to the council beforehand through email at your desk tonight and

[2:21:57] also online. And then we'll go to our in-person speakers and start with the

[2:22:02] people who signed up for public speaks out first. So I want to start with Nancy

[2:22:06] Kaye followed by Linda Shaw.

[2:22:16] I am not a professional public speaker. I am nervous.

[2:22:21] So if you can bear with me, I'd appreciate it. So good evening. My name is

[2:22:28] Nancy Joyner Kaye and I live at 105 Ashwin Court. I want you to know that

[2:22:34] I love the town of Cary, and I am excited about the mixed income housing that includes

[2:22:42] market rate housing that is currently under consideration under the Imagine Cary plan.

[2:22:54] I'm excited that a lot of these projects are public and privately financed.

[2:23:02] You couldn't ask for a better mix.

[2:23:04] You have low income housing. You have market rate housing on the same site.

[2:23:12] You have a community coming together, private and public, to finance it.

[2:23:17] This is the ideal model for housing options.

[2:23:24] But tonight I would like to address the tax exemption requested by Raleigh,

[2:23:29] by the Raleigh Housing Authority.

[2:23:31] Authority. Staff stated that private ownership brings either higher rents or deferred maintenance

[2:23:41] and that the Raleigh Housing Authority ownership prevents both. Specifically, for Amberwood,

[2:23:51] the deferred maintenance claim is simply not true, okay, and you need to listen. Amberwood

[2:24:00] sits inside a Lockmere Homeowners' Association, subject to the same architectural and landscaping

[2:24:08] covenants as every Lockmere home. For a private owner, private, those covenants have teeth.

[2:24:19] Unresolved violations bring fines, and fines become liens. Deferred maintenance is not

[2:24:26] Not an option, which is why this apartment complex looks so awesome despite the fact

[2:24:34] that it is 35 years old.

[2:24:38] Since 1991, through every owner, Aberwood has met Lockmere's standards because the covenants

[2:24:48] run with the deed.

[2:24:51] You need to understand what that means.

[2:24:52] It runs with the deed, and it binds any private owner.

[2:24:59] They would not bind the Raleigh Housing Authority.

[2:25:04] Now consider the Raleigh Housing Authority created by Raleigh in 1938.

[2:25:11] It is controlled by Raleigh.

[2:25:15] All nine commissioners appointed by the Raleigh Mayor.

[2:25:21] The Raleigh Mayor, not the Raleigh City Council. They're appointed specifically by the Raleigh

[2:25:27] Mayor. Like Cary, it is a municipal corporation with immunity.

[2:25:38] Let that sink in. I shall repeat

[2:25:41] it. It is a municipal corporation like Cary with immunity. North Carolina says plainly

[2:25:49] that no judgment against it can become a lien on its property.

[2:25:56] This tax exemption is the first step toward the Raleigh Housing Authority

[2:26:02] operating as a housing authority inside Cary.

[2:26:14] If you approved this tax exemption, you would essentially be creating a town within a town.

[2:26:24] One, that covenants and carry ordinances, they cannot touch them,

[2:26:31] and you need to be mindful

[2:26:32] of that.

[2:26:34] By staff's own admission, margins, your staff, would be thin once this converts to low and

[2:26:42] moderate income housing.

[2:26:44] With capped rents, when costs rise, maintenance is the only place that gives.

[2:26:54] That's the only place they can cut.

[2:26:57] An owner immune to Lockmere's covenants and the town of carry ordinances could remove

[2:27:06] the landscaping and features that are costliest to maintain.

[2:27:11] A change the appearance of the buildings.

[2:27:15] Change the level of maintenance of the buildings.

[2:27:19] With little consequence.

[2:27:21] Please, let me finish.

[2:27:23] One more sentence.

[2:27:24] I'm speaking slowly so you understand.

[2:27:29] Even the mayor has publicly voiced concerns about long-term maintenance under the RHA.

[2:27:37] Staff and the mayor agree, sir,

[2:27:39] that ambrose is naturally occurring affordable housing, 35 years old and in excellent condition

[2:27:46] with updated interiors to pools, club houses, dog parts, et cetera, but under R.H. control

[2:27:53] 49% of the units would eventually go to Raleigh residents and current residents above the

[2:28:01] income level currently living there would not be able to renew their lease.

[2:28:06] carry residents would be displaced from one of our few affordable communities.

[2:28:13] In the end, this tax exemption is unnecessary.

[2:28:18] The housing is already affordable and the covenants already keep it well maintained.

[2:28:24] Granting it, cheats carry out of $6.5 million over 30 years

[2:28:30] and the county out of $8.5 million also over 38.

[2:28:35] Well, just a minute, puts a town, just a minute, I've never been here, I've never been here.

[2:28:43] It puts a town inside our town.

[2:28:45] It displaces Cary residents in favor of Raleigh residents.

[2:28:50] I am asking you to show up, I am asking you to show up for the Cary residents and let

[2:28:59] the RHA address its housing needs not in the town of Kerry. You owe your allegiance, you

[2:29:09] owe your allegiance to the taxpayers and residents of the town of Kerry.

[2:29:15] Ms. Kay.

[2:29:16] If you, I have one more sentence.

[2:29:18] I've let you go over for two years.

[2:29:19] If you cannot bring yourself to vote this down today.

[2:29:23] Ladies and gentlemen, please.

[2:29:25] I ask that you take, that you table the vote for further study.

[2:29:31] We have had very little notice.

[2:29:34] Thank you.

[2:29:34] 13 days.

[2:29:35] Thank you.

[2:29:35] Please, please listen.

[2:29:38] Thank you.

[2:29:45] Speaker is Linda Shaw.

[2:29:49] Ms. Shaw.

[2:29:50] Our next.

[2:29:51] Ms. Shaw, you're next.

[2:29:53] Followed by Elaina Morgan.

[2:29:55] I would ask, please stick to the five minute time rule.

[2:29:58] We have a long night ahead of us.

[2:30:00] Please.

[2:30:18] Good

[2:30:24] evening, Mr. Mayor, Mr. Weinbrecht and Kerrytown Council. Thank you for letting me speak.

[2:30:30] My name is Lynn Shaw, and I live in Cary, been a resident since 1995, been resident of Washington since 2001.

[2:30:41] I am speaking on my own behalf. Okay, this is my own personal opinion, okay.

[2:30:48] And I do have a couple ideas. I am asking the Town of Cary Town Council to vote no on the resolution to allow Raleigh Housing Authority to operate in Cary

[2:30:58] and acquire Amberwood Apartments at Lockmere.

[2:31:01] Amberwood Apartments is already renting

[2:31:03] is naturally occurring affordable housing, known as NOAA.

[2:31:07] NOAA is a subset of unsubsidized, not subsidized,

[2:31:11] housing that remains cheaper because of specific traits.

[2:31:15] Amberwood at Lockmere is within the Lockmere Association

[2:31:19] and it does have to buy the Lockmere

[2:31:21] architectural standards and specifications

[2:31:23] just like me and residents.

[2:31:25] I am asking the Town of Cary Town Council and Planning Department to not allow a potential

[2:31:33] loss of the Cary tax revenue to Raleigh Housing Authority.

[2:31:36] Instead, please reallocate the hundreds of thousands and potentially millions of Cary

[2:31:43] tax revenue dollars to developing a veterans village on the site of the Epic Games property

[2:31:49] formerly known as the Curytown Center,

[2:31:52] properties that are still undeveloped.

[2:31:57] An article published in the American Legion

[2:31:58] on June 23rd, 2026 reports that there are over

[2:32:02] 32,000 homeless veterans.

[2:32:05] The Charlotte Today published on July 16th, 2026.

[2:32:09] Tunnel to Towers, excuse me, I got a cold, foundation.

[2:32:13] The Tunnel to Towers Foundation has begun construction

[2:32:16] on a new veterans village that will provide

[2:32:18] not only stable housing, but also comprehensive support services designed to help service

[2:32:24] members rebuild their lives. The town of Cary could seek a partnership with Epic Games and

[2:32:31] Tunnel to Towers and the HUD VASH, that's V-A-S-H, to build a veterans village. Part

[2:32:38] of the partnership deal could allow for a part of the parcel to be developed for

[2:32:42] epic games, corporate office space. I don't know, maybe you could call it epic 10 veterans

[2:32:49] village, you know. And what the veterans village is, the foundation builds transitional and

[2:32:55] permanent housing communities across the United States, featuring on-site supportive

[2:33:00] medical and mental health services. The Tunnel to Towers Foundation operates a dedicated

[2:33:05] HUD BASH services team that collaborates with the United States Department of Veterans

[2:33:10] of Fair, Department of HUD, and the local public housing

[2:33:14] authorities to help homeless veterans

[2:33:15] secure permanent housing.

[2:33:17] This project could align with the Town of Kerry 2040

[2:33:21] Imagine Plan.

[2:33:23] So once again, I am asking the Town of Kerry

[2:33:26] Town Council to vote no on the resolution

[2:33:29] to allow the Raleigh Housing Authority

[2:33:31] to operate in Kerry.

[2:33:32] And thanks so much for listening.

[2:33:40] Our next speaker is Alina Morgan followed by Thomas

[2:33:43] Kelliner.

[2:33:44] Good

[2:33:51] evening. My name is Dr. Elena Morgan and I live across from the Amberwood

[2:33:56] apartment buildings in Lochmere. I am here tonight to strongly oppose the sale

[2:34:03] of the property to the Raleigh Housing Authority. Before I get into the

[2:34:09] specifics of what I want to say, I'd like to take a moment and say the optics

[2:34:14] of this situation are catastrophic for all of you individually.

[2:34:19] If I were to bill my patients and Medicare, who is who I bill for my services,

[2:34:30] $24 million in excess of the services I had provided to my patients,

[2:34:36] I would lose my license, and I would go to jail.

[2:34:39] I would be on the front cover of every newspaper in this country as a villainous physician.

[2:34:47] The fraud that has been propagated by the members of this council seems to wash over you.

[2:34:56] Your faces are impassive. You've committed crimes, crimes, significant financial malfeasance.

[2:35:06] residents, let that sink in.

[2:35:09] You are now turning to face, Kerry residents, many of whom are telling you, that giving

[2:35:16] away $200,000 a year in tax revenue.

[2:35:23] Let's remember what tax revenue is.

[2:35:27] Tax payer dollars.

[2:35:30] What does that mean?

[2:35:30] money people have earned in their jobs and been forced by you to give to the

[2:35:39] government in good faith that you have taken and you're asking if you can give

[2:35:46] it away to a municipality that is not answerable to us.

[2:35:59] Each one of you will

[2:36:01] gladly have to stand for reelection sooner or later. I genuinely support

[2:36:08] women in government. I'm glad to see a panel full of women who are in leadership.

[2:36:15] I'm appalled at what you've done with it.

[2:36:24] You are elected, Bella, you are in my

[2:36:27] district, to represent the welfare of the people who live in that area.

[2:36:35] Amberwood apartment buildings is fine. Leave it alone.

[2:36:47] I will end with this

[2:36:48] one extraordinarily important point. When I reviewed the crime statistics for every

[2:36:56] Raleigh housing authority building within its jurisdiction, the violent crime recorded

[2:37:04] by police in Raleigh in the immediate quarter mile around those apartments exceeded national

[2:37:11] averages by staggering numbers.

[2:37:14] Shall I tell you what they were?

[2:37:20] Drive-by shootings,

[2:37:22] rape, intentional homicide,

[2:37:27] sexual assault of a child at gunpoint, in the

[2:37:31] daytime, near the street, not by a family member.

[2:37:36] Do you know what that means?

[2:37:38] Street crime, the likes of which Kerry cannot comprehend.

[2:37:43] I moved here from Atlanta and I can tell you, even in the areas where taxpayers feel buffered from crime, it will arrive on your doorstep.

[2:37:57] And I will tell you, the ballot box will arrive on yours.

[2:38:04] Vote no.

[2:38:22] Our next speaker is Thomas followed by Candace DeMadis.

[2:38:25] My

[2:38:32] name is Tom Kellerherr. I am a resident of Lockmere. I've been in Cary since 1992.

[2:38:41] Although I do not have a southern accent, you can tell I'm from the Boston area. I was

[2:38:48] born in Buford, South Carolina, so that qualifies me to be here. So with that said,

[2:38:53] But I mentioned that I'm from the Boston area.

[2:38:58] And my personal life story is I grew up under the Cambridge Housing Authority in Boston.

[2:39:09] Similar projects, we call them projects, similar arrangements to this proposed arrangement,

[2:39:17] similar situations, similar wanting to do good for the community, and then rampant mismanagement.

[2:39:28] That mismanagement caused a lot of grief on my family. I have scars to approve that

[2:39:38] but it was mismanaged. I have a stab wound. And that is something that I don't want anywhere

[2:39:46] in our carry community, especially managed by a housing authority and a housing authority

[2:39:53] that is not within the carry limits and not controlled by carry. Now, I know other

[2:40:01] folks have gone over the money, the 219 by 30 years, 6.5 million adjusted for inflation,

[2:40:12] up to 11 million. And if you take the other numbers and say, well, actually, the inflation

[2:40:17] adjustment of 2%, it should be 5%, it just goes up into astronomical numbers. But I came

[2:40:28] Time to carry, 92, like I said.

[2:40:30] I worked my way through carry in different neighborhoods, and my whole goal was to live

[2:40:37] at Lockmere, to live in that environment.

[2:40:40] I think I deserve that right.

[2:40:43] I think I deserve to preserve that right.

[2:40:46] Ambowood itself is a give back where we provide not subsidized housing for honest

[2:40:56] people to make a living, to grow and carry. We provide that already. There's no

[2:41:01] reason to remove this.

[2:41:05] I wanted to say things like, well I'm a disabled

[2:41:08] veteran, which I am. I have struggled. I've seen what these housing authorities

[2:41:17] who present delusions of grandeur and what they actually deliver. I've seen

[2:41:25] the rats and the sewers. I've seen trash piled up as high as the second story within the project

[2:41:32] I lived in. I've seen the riot police come in every Friday and Saturday night and throw

[2:41:39] tear gas to where we have to close our windows and we can't go outside. These are all places

[2:41:45] that are managed by the Housing Authority who I don't even think is in here in the

[2:41:52] room anymore to hear these comments. So I may be misspeaking on that, but, you know,

[2:41:57] that's my observation and that's what I'm going to stand on. I do know through articles

[2:42:06] within different papers and news feeds and all that, that the Raleigh Housing Authority

[2:42:14] and the current owners have bragged to say, well, we don't really need your approval.

[2:42:19] We can go ahead with this without your approval.

[2:42:21] So then don't give it to them.

[2:42:23] Don't give them the tax break, which is what they probably need and they desire.

[2:42:29] Let them do what they want to do.

[2:42:31] If that's what they can do, then do it.

[2:42:34] I guarantee you they won't go ahead if you don't approve this and give them the tax break.

[2:42:40] After all my years of service through the military, I think I deserve,

[2:42:46] And I think my community deserves, and I think Cary deserves your consideration in this issue.

[2:42:54] Just don't give them the authority.

[2:42:58] That's all I can say except for this is financially bad for Cary.

[2:43:02] It's very stressful for the current Amber Woods residents who eventually will be kicked out.

[2:43:08] And I know I'm summing up now.

[2:43:09] And the surrounding thousands of Cary residents who support what we have here in Cary.

[2:43:22] I think we know that the word transparency came by tonight.

[2:43:27] And I think this is your moment.

[2:43:28] You want to make things right?

[2:43:31] Be transparent about this and not vote for it.

[2:43:34] Thank you.

[2:43:46] Our next speaker is Candice D'Amatis followed by Stormy Forte.

[2:44:01] Who's after that?

[2:44:02] So Candice, then Stormy, then Paula, Hachino. So it's Candice here.

[2:44:12] Okay, who's the next

[2:44:13] speaker? Stormy. Forte. Followed by Paula. Is Stormy here?

[2:44:21] Next speaker. Paula.

[2:44:32] Good

[2:44:32] resident of Kerry. My name is Paula Mancino. I live on Franklin Heights Road, and Amberwood

[2:44:39] is adjacent to my neighborhood. I live off of Piney Plains. Ms. Donna, over here is

[2:44:47] a resident. How many years? 40 years. Her husband came to the same town and insisted

[2:44:56] that they paved the road before they built Amberwood.

[2:45:00] It was dirt. She worked for the state. Her husband worked for the state. Her son worked for the state.

[2:45:06] He had to beg and plead for them to keep the trees up for the buffers where deers can live in the woods.

[2:45:13] I make $15.50 an hour. I teach preschool. My husband works hard. I have a son on the spectrum.

[2:45:22] I don't need to worry about what's going to happen behind those woods to the people that live there now,

[2:45:28] to Miss Donna shouldn't have to put up a fence. She's a widow. Her son has some needs. She

[2:45:39] shouldn't have to worry. Her husband helped make that area as beautiful as it is because

[2:45:46] he had to come here and tell you people how to go by the laws. That the developers

[2:45:51] have to put up a stop sign and a sidewalk. And they have to pave the road. This is

[2:45:57] not rocket science. It's called legal zoning protocols. Okay. The presentation neglected

[2:46:07] to mention the Wake County taxes that Raleigh would be exempt from, which I think is a lot

[2:46:16] more than $200 in something thousand dollars per year. Okay. I'm sure one of you knows

[2:46:21] the number. Okay, 725,000 times 30 years. I'm not a statistician, but I know that's a lot

[2:46:30] of money. Okay. I love Kerry. How much? $21 million. Why don't you all pay that? Okay,

[2:46:39] you write us a check. Get out your checkbook. Okay. God bless me. Let me be nice. Okay.

[2:46:45] I love Kerry. I love their townspeople. They're hardworking. They're kind and they're

[2:46:50] honest people. They're from all over the world by the way. Okay, I'm here to speak my peace.

[2:46:58] There's neighbors in my area that are disabled that are veterans that have adult children

[2:47:03] on the spectrum and they shouldn't have to be afraid to walk down the street because

[2:47:07] we're going to put in subsidized housing in our backyard. My husband works long hours.

[2:47:15] I should not be afraid who's walking down my street. My son should not have to be

[2:47:19] afraid because he's on the autism spectrum. Somebody might run him down. We've got one

[2:47:24] lady in the neighborhood. We're going to catch her.

[2:47:28] Okay. I want our tax dollars to stay

[2:47:32] and carry so we can hire more police officers so people can call 911 and not be put on hold

[2:47:40] for God's sake. How many people have called 911 in the town at carry and can't get

[2:47:46] somebody to answer. Where is the money for that?

[2:47:52] Okay? I do not want you to vote yes

[2:47:58] on this. The tax money deserves to stay in the town of Cary. There are people living in

[2:48:07] our community now. It used to be Swift Creek and then it became town of Cary and everyone

[2:48:10] thought that would be wonderful. Duke's raising our rates. Y'all approve that.

[2:48:15] The water is going up, there we go.

[2:48:19] You said we were going to have our taxes up 3.5.

[2:48:21] Well, we talked you down to 2.5.

[2:48:23] Thank you, but no thank you.

[2:48:25] Last time I checked, I didn't get a 2.5% increase in my wages,

[2:48:31] in my neighbor's social security, in those veterans' benefits.

[2:48:36] Did you get a 2.5 raise?

[2:48:38] I did.

[2:48:39] You did.

[2:48:40] Good for you.

[2:48:41] I'm sure you'll put some to charity.

[2:48:43] The wealthy people living in Cary and all of us other folks living in Cary do not want

[2:48:53] folks that need affordable housing to go without.

[2:48:57] That needs to be clear here.

[2:49:00] No one is here putting people down that live in a place that has affordable housing.

[2:49:08] I am speaking from experience.

[2:49:10] I lived near the projects in St. Paul, Minnesota and I know what section 8 subsidized housing

[2:49:17] looks like and it's scary and it's not everybody that lives there but only takes about 10% to

[2:49:23] take the whole place down and you are going to lose money if you approve it because

[2:49:28] guess what people are going to be leaving in droves.

[2:49:31] Is that what you want for the town of Cary and Sina?

[2:49:34] Okay.

[2:49:35] So, I want you to realize that if you allow that to happen, you will see higher crime rates,

[2:49:42] you will see drug-related crimes, no one wants to talk about the drugs, but that comes with

[2:49:46] it.

[2:49:46] That's the time is expired thing.

[2:49:47] Last time, and let's remember the child abuse and neglect, I'm prayerful that the

[2:49:53] town of Kerry, God bless you it's true, will make the right decision and not sell

[2:49:59] Amberwood because we have serious concerns. Some people like myself, our home property

[2:50:08] values are all the only investment I have. I'm going to be 55 years old. I would like

[2:50:14] to stay in my house until I'm no longer alive. I'd like my son to inherit that house. I

[2:50:20] would like my son to be able to keep the property value so he can have something to

[2:50:26] live off of and not be paying for subsidized housing.

[2:50:29] Thank you.

[2:50:30] God bless you.

[2:50:35] Our next speaker is Tim Brock,

[2:50:46] followed by Thomas Hosey.

[2:50:57] Good evening.

[2:50:59] My name is Tim Brock.

[2:51:00] I am also a resident of Lockmere and a resident of Cary.

[2:51:05] I came tonight to voice my support for affordable housing and the resolution before you right

[2:51:10] now.

[2:51:11] I think it's really important as a community benefit that we have affordable housing and I think Kerry recognizes that as it's in a lot of our plans and our visioning.

[2:51:22] I also think that, you know, it's important to keep these wonderful people in place. They're already here at Amberwood. Many of them might be here tonight.

[2:51:30] I think they're critical members and valuable members of our community and I think we need to support them staying here so they can work and engage and live in Kerry

[2:51:38] and don't have to make long commutes to stay part of our community.

[2:51:42] I also think in terms of when you think about affordable housing, it's also people who are

[2:51:48] already living here who maybe have parents that can't afford to come and live in Cary

[2:51:53] and they need a place to stay nearby and they can sort of engage in an affordable housing

[2:51:58] and I know that's been something that over the years has been an issue with my family.

[2:52:02] And so I think it's really important that we have affordable housing in Cary.

[2:52:07] In terms of the cost proposition, I think this is a very good cost proposition for affordable

[2:52:13] housing.

[2:52:14] When you think about what it would take to buy land, construct and develop affordable

[2:52:19] housing and the maintenance cost, that is way more expensive than foregoing $200,000

[2:52:25] in taxes a year.

[2:52:27] I think this is really important and really worth doing because it is a fraction of

[2:52:32] the cost to get affordable housing that we want to need and carry.

[2:52:37] In terms of community character, in terms of community character,

[2:52:42] Amberwood is already there and they've been wonderful neighbors

[2:52:46] and those residents will stay in place.

[2:52:48] And I think that it will continue to be great neighbors

[2:52:56] and a great place to be.

[2:52:57] And so I think in terms of this, my biggest concern is that if the deal were to fall through

[2:53:03] and RHA doesn't get this property and a predatory development company comes and looks this as

[2:53:08] an extract of opportunity to disinvest and degrade the property and if we see a dilapidated property

[2:53:14] then that really will impact community character so I have concerns about that.

[2:53:22] So to reaffirm I am a Lockmere resident and I am very much in support of affordable

[2:53:27] housing in this proposition and I want to thank you for your time this evening.

[2:53:38] Our next speaker is Thomas Hosey followed by Reynolds Nippy.

[2:53:41] I'm sorry could you repeat the name Thomas Hosey I believe followed by riddle

[2:53:50] They are in council people. I am Thomas

[2:53:54] I'm told in Thomas Jay Hosey. I live in Kerry homeowner there in the Winston Ridge development

[2:53:59] I

[2:54:00] too have concerns with the RHA proposal for the public housing at Amberwood

[2:54:05] This would eliminate approximately

[2:54:07] 236,000 to the city, over 500,000 to the county property tax annually, or while property

[2:54:13] tax and carry was just increased by the council 8%, another 3.5% by the county, however the

[2:54:20] needs for amberwood services would continue but unfunded.

[2:54:25] Property values in the fabric of the community are of great concern.

[2:54:30] Neither RHA or Wake Housing Authority own or operate apartments and carry.

[2:54:35] They primarily use vouchers for single units, the owner pays the property tax, and hundreds

[2:54:41] of units are not concentrated in one location.

[2:54:46] Large-scale public housing and carry would be a first, an experiment, if you will, without

[2:54:51] precedent.

[2:54:52] In fact, there is only one publicly-owned complex of comparable size and concentration

[2:54:58] in the entire state of North Carolina, and that is McDougal Terrace in Durham.

[2:55:02] This large complex and adjacent area experience dramatically high crimes, as well as many

[2:55:09] associated challenges, violent crimes.

[2:55:12] Comprehensive studies that are not limited to just low-income areas and actually distinguish

[2:55:18] between affluent areas and low-income indicate when public housing occurs in affluent areas

[2:55:24] such as carry, property values do fall.

[2:55:28] They go down, as opposed to when built in lower-income areas where values can remain stable or actually increase.

[2:55:36] A few examples of comprehensive studies that make this finding include a 2016, a 2019 Stanford University study,

[2:55:44] a 2016 Harvard University study with work noted economists Rebecca Diamond and Tim McQuade,

[2:55:52] as well as a 2016 urban studies that's specifically focused on the Charlotte area, just to name a few.

[2:56:01] Additionally, the City Council has no future input into this experiment.

[2:56:05] RHA can make any changes they choose at any time without regard to how this impacts the surrounding areas or the required city service levels.

[2:56:14] According to RAL, a WRAL on July 16th, Wake County and various Raleigh agencies are seeking

[2:56:21] to house 400 homeless people each year.

[2:56:25] They have a budget of $22 million, which is great, so they will be housed.

[2:56:30] Would RHA unilaterally decide to house them at Amberwood?

[2:56:33] It is definitely more than possible.

[2:56:36] Again, Cary Council would not be a decision maker on this.

[2:56:39] This is not a carry merry-gold development model, which is great.

[2:56:44] It's a very different approach.

[2:56:47] AMBOID does a pride in naturally occurring affordable housing,

[2:56:50] many of you have already stated.

[2:56:52] Changing this to public subsidized housing will not add any affordable units.

[2:56:58] This is already occurring.

[2:57:00] It's been stated 52% low-mod AMI and 96% occupied.

[2:57:05] However, if approved, it would remove needed property tax, negatively impact adjacent property

[2:57:12] values supported by comprehensive studies that conclude this in affluent areas.

[2:57:17] Remove counsel as a decision maker.

[2:57:20] Counselor's responsibility, as you know, is to promote stable home values, public safety,

[2:57:25] fiscal responsibility, and ensure the continuity of the fabric of the community for existing

[2:57:31] residents.

[2:57:32] This is why we elected you.

[2:57:34] and purchased homes and carry rather than less expensive homes in other communities.

[2:57:40] Removing 340 units from the tax roll while taxes increased on existing homeowners,

[2:57:45] jeopardizing existing property values, and eliminating oversight simply does not fulfill

[2:57:51] the risk responsibility owed to existing carry residents.

[2:57:55] The intentions are great, but the downside at this location, at this concentrated size,

[2:58:01] at this fiscal juncture are just not in the best instance of current carry

[2:58:06] residents. I would urge you to please vote no on this. Thank you very much. I

[2:58:12] appreciate your time.

[2:58:21] Our next speaker is Reynolds. Okay. Followed by Eric Northine.

[2:58:39] Good evening, Mr. Mayor and council members.

[2:58:45] That gentleman was right.

[2:58:48] A lot of you folks are somewhat on the record of being in favor of affordable housing and

[2:58:54] an authority.

[2:58:58] Don't vote your dream, vote your reality if you please.

[2:59:01] The reality, this gentleman just gave you the reality and it's not as good as a dream.

[2:59:08] Amberwood is a success and someone before me said it, leave it alone.

[2:59:15] Okay, now I do have about two minutes maybe or less.

[2:59:22] And it's in big print so it'll go real quick and it's only two sides.

[2:59:28] Okay, comments on the Raleigh Housing Authority coming to Kerry with the Raleigh program.

[2:59:36] Number one, this is a backdoor entry.

[2:59:40] You folks have been talking about tonight about transparency.

[2:59:43] This is a backdoor entry.

[2:59:45] Kerry has not initiated a housing authority and has not therefore debated it publicly

[2:59:51] or sought a vote of approval of our citizens to undertake such a costly program.

[2:59:58] We may be in favor of it.

[3:00:00] But it's a, this is a backdoor effort. Number two, North Carolina State Auditor

[3:00:06] pardon me for, for talking about what's happened in the last six days. North

[3:00:16] Carolina State Auditor only a week ago released a 2,600 page investigative

[3:00:22] report detailing to quote WRAO, widespread financial mismanagement within

[3:00:30] in the town of Kerry," end quote.

[3:00:32] Number three, again I quote WRIL's article, quote,

[3:00:38] extravagant spending, investigation reveals

[3:00:41] Kerry's fund balance fell below policy thresholds

[3:00:47] in fiscal 2023 and fiscal 2024, end quote.

[3:00:54] Number four, if members of the town council of Kerry

[3:00:59] vote yes on this agenda item tonight your yes will reduce Kerry's real estate income tax

[3:01:07] Kerry's income town's income it was put up tonight about 230,000 plus dollars just the first year

[3:01:17] because the Raleigh Housing Authority as you have heard and know is tax exempt

[3:01:26] Number five, I ask you, each and every member of this town council, please vote no on Raleigh's

[3:01:34] request.

[3:01:35] Thank you.

[3:01:44] Our next speaker is Eric Northam.

[3:01:47] Followed by Roy Miller.

[3:02:00] Hello, my name is Eric Northam, and I've been a Carrier Resident for more than 43 years

[3:02:05] now.

[3:02:05] In fact, I've been a Lockmere Resident for 39 years.

[3:02:09] So I've seen the area quite a bit.

[3:02:10] But I am on the Board of Directors of the Lockmere Homeowners Association, so I'm going

[3:02:17] to give you the view of our HOA.

[3:02:22] I appreciate you letting me stand up here and address all of you and speak on behalf

[3:02:27] of the Lockmere Homeowners Association.

[3:02:31] We represent about 1,966 properties and owners, including Amberwood.

[3:02:39] We do recognize the importance of affordable housing in Cary. It's very

[3:02:44] important. That's why we've had Amber Wood working as a NOAH, I guess you call it,

[3:02:52] for 35 years. However, we have received quite a bit of feedback from our

[3:02:59] residents and the overwhelming majority oppose this resolution. So we

[3:03:04] respectfully ask the council to vote no tonight. First, I would like to highlight three concerns.

[3:03:13] I'll try not to cover items that are already been covered, so I'll modify some of the words

[3:03:18] on here.

[3:03:21] But the things I'd like to talk about are the benefits to carry, financial

[3:03:25] impacts and lack of transparency. So first, the benefits to carry, they remain very

[3:03:31] unclear to a lot of us.

[3:03:35] The accelerated timeline has allowed little opportunity to evaluate the long-term impacts

[3:03:41] of this significant change.

[3:03:43] This resolution would authorize the Raleigh Housing Authority to obtain jurisdiction in

[3:03:50] Cary, and that goes a long way.

[3:03:55] I think even on the slides that we saw at the beginning, we said that the Raleigh

[3:04:00] housing authorities going to set aside a minimum of 51% of the units as low-income

[3:04:06] housing. What do you think is going to happen to those amberwood residents when

[3:04:11] their lease comes due? They're not going to qualify for that. So they will be

[3:04:16] displaced and put other people in there. So before approving this

[3:04:24] resolution the Council really should have clear answers about whether the

[3:04:27] Raleigh Housing Authority, ownership would change occupancy policies and whether current

[3:04:33] carry residents would continue to be served. Second, the financial impact deserves careful

[3:04:40] consideration. A lot of the speakers have been up here talking about the reduction in

[3:04:46] taxes and things like that. I'm not going to cover all those numbers again, but at

[3:04:51] the same time that you have reduced amounts, you're still, the town is still going to

[3:04:56] be responsible for providing police, fire, transportation, and other municipal services.

[3:05:02] In fact, there's a lot of research that said that it might actually go up based on the

[3:05:08] use of it.

[3:05:11] So where would that come from?

[3:05:14] The residents deserve to know how this lost revenue would be offset and what impact it

[3:05:19] could have on our own future town services or our property taxes.

[3:05:23] So I think you ought to consider that.

[3:05:27] And then third, the public process is lack transparency.

[3:05:31] I mean, that's just very obvious.

[3:05:33] The legal notice was issued on July 10th.

[3:05:37] And that we've left less than two weeks for public review.

[3:05:41] Less than two weeks.

[3:05:43] I think you had over 144 comments.

[3:05:46] Is that what I heard the number was?

[3:05:49] Neither the Lockinger Association nor neighboring communities received direct notification.

[3:05:54] So we did not get that.

[3:05:55] We found out about it by word of mouth.

[3:06:00] So I don't think that's very transparent.

[3:06:06] A decision with long-term consequences should include meaningful public engagement and

[3:06:12] really not a rushed process that is.

[3:06:14] So the resolution tonight is more than just a procedural action, and I've read those

[3:06:21] words from the staff.

[3:06:24] This really could establish a precedent for outside housing authorities to acquire and

[3:06:30] operate properties in carry without a clear obligation to benefit carry residents.

[3:06:35] So in closing, I'd say the Lockmere Homeowners Association respectfully urges the Council

[3:06:41] to vote no on this resolution.

[3:06:43] I

[3:06:51] would reiterate also at a minimum, if you don't vote no, that you vote to defer this

[3:07:00] and gather the facts so that you have clear answers regarding occupancy policies.

[3:07:06] Thank you.

[3:07:06] A thorough financial impact analysis and an open public dialogue with the taxpayers

[3:07:11] who will be affected.

[3:07:12] Thank you.

[3:07:19] Our next speaker is Rory Miller, followed by Mary Kent.

[3:07:28] Hi.

[3:07:29] My name is Rory Miller, and like most of the people before me, I'm a homeowner

[3:07:34] I want to start with I'm not going to focus on the crime and all that

[3:07:38] demographics anything like that that's outside my purview. I want to focus on

[3:07:42] RHA. They were formed in 1938, 88 years ago. To date I don't know that they've

[3:07:48] ever owned a property outside of Raleigh City Limits. Why now? Why our

[3:07:52] neighborhood? Why Kerry?

[3:07:57] I understand the need for affordable housing. I've

[3:08:00] lived in I assume much rougher places than anybody sitting up there

[3:08:04] right now. I've been there. I don't judge on it, but there's some concerns for sure.

[3:08:10] I'm going to go back to the whole process. Sorry, I'm going to speed up so I don't run

[3:08:13] out of time like everybody else. The first notice came out 10 days ago. In that notice

[3:08:18] it said the Kerry Town Council intends to adopt the resolution authorizing the Raleigh

[3:08:23] Housing Authority to acquire and rehabilitate. The word intend is bothersome to me here.

[3:08:28] You didn't have the public hearing yet. You didn't listen to your constituents and

[3:08:33] When you already made a decision, it's not okay.

[3:08:37] Now there will be people for it and against it, that's okay.

[3:08:40] We all have our opinion and that's what makes the democracy of America.

[3:08:43] I'm here to hear everybody, it is what it is.

[3:08:47] The word intent was bothersome to me because you guys seem to already have your thing and

[3:08:51] going back to what you campaign on, yes, many campaign on affordable housing, okay,

[3:08:56] you know, do what you campaign on.

[3:08:58] The document I saw today, DOC ID 8655, attachment resolution, was titled the resolution of the

[3:09:06] Cary Town Council authorizing the Housing Authority of the City of Raleigh to acquire

[3:09:10] and rehabilitate a certain multifamily housing development located in Cary.

[3:09:15] It states that the Housing Authority of the City of Raleigh has requested that the

[3:09:18] town authorize RHA to operate and perform its lawful functions within the boundaries

[3:09:23] of the town in connection with the acquisition and rehabilitation by RHA

[3:09:28] through its nonprofit affiliate capital area developments incorporated. That's the

[3:09:33] first I heard of them. What's the relationship? Do you guys all know? I

[3:09:37] looked it up. I know there was a name change. We'll go to the corporate

[3:09:42] filings. We've got a ton of different entities here. RHA, Raleigh Housing

[3:09:47] Authority, 11 properties listed in Wake County real estate all in the

[3:09:50] City of Raleigh, RHA Incorporated, Raleigh Housing Authority Incorporated, 15 properties

[3:09:54] listed in Wake County Real Estate all in the City of Raleigh, Capital Area Developments

[3:09:58] Incorporated, Non-Profit, 80 properties listed in Wake County all in the City of Raleigh.

[3:10:04] And then we have one for the Raleigh Housing Authority as well, I assume it's an office,

[3:10:08] 107 total properties owned by all of these different entities, all in Raleigh, Zero

[3:10:12] and Kerry. I think we support the affordable housing. I think there's

[3:10:21] definitely questions of why to push this through in two weeks flat. And then

[3:10:25] every time the information comes out it's different. And frankly I don't know

[3:10:29] that I don't mean to assume here but I'm not sure if you guys understand

[3:10:35] the corporate structure of these two different entities. So a nonprofit, who's

[3:10:41] buying it. Is the nonprofit buying it? Because I'm sure that's going to change the way we

[3:10:44] govern them as far as Lockmere goes, as far as the town of Kerry goes. And like many

[3:10:50] others have said, basically it seems like Raleigh is going to get their first foot

[3:10:55] in the door, like I said, 88 years. They don't have any properties outside of Raleigh

[3:11:00] and we're going to be the first. So good or bad, can't tell you, but it'll have

[3:11:04] of every one of your names attached to it

[3:11:06] if you vote yes on the resolution today.

[3:11:10] So

[3:11:15] I do want to go to one more thing.

[3:11:18] It kind of relates to crime, but not really.

[3:11:20] So federal lawsuits settled October 16th, 2019 by RHA.

[3:11:26] Per fair housing project,

[3:11:27] the Project of Legal Aid of North Carolina, RHA,

[3:11:30] settled a federal discrimination complaint

[3:11:32] filed against the RHA on behalf of a public housing tenant

[3:11:35] who was a victim of domestic violence.

[3:11:37] The settlement includes a federal consent decree believed to be the first in the country

[3:11:42] to address the landlord's obligations under the VAWA, Violence Against Women Act.

[3:11:48] Well, they did it first, don't know that that's a good thing.

[3:11:51] I feel bad for the woman, though.

[3:11:53] The tenant was a victim of multiple crimes at her housing unit, violence perpetrated

[3:11:57] by an ex-boyfriend who strangled her, a home intruder who threatened her guests

[3:12:01] at gunpoint, an armed man plural who shot bullets into her apartment.

[3:12:05] No, I'm not focusing on the crime.

[3:12:06] no woman or nobody should have to go through that and that happened under RHA's watch and

[3:12:12] they had to settle it federally. Thank you to Legal Aid of North Carolina for that.

[3:12:17] If you do some research on the gentleman that was here, I'm sure you'll find interesting

[3:12:21] things in Everett Housing Authority relating to how he manages. I guess that's it. Thank

[3:12:27] you guys.

[3:12:36] Our next speaker is Mary Kintz, followed by Samantha Bartner.

[3:12:39] Good

[3:12:50] evening, Mayor, Town Council staff, Cary folks.

[3:12:55] My name is Mary Kintz.

[3:12:59] I'm employed at St. Paul's Episcopal Church.

[3:13:01] I'm on staff there.

[3:13:02] My title is Community Connector.

[3:13:05] I'm also a member of the strategy team of One Wake.

[3:13:11] One Wake is formed so that we can reach beyond the boundaries of our faith and try to

[3:13:17] connect, trying to connect people together to find a way to a more just and loving world.

[3:13:26] I'm really frustrated that this is happening tonight. Timing stinks. There's an opportunity

[3:13:35] before us that has nothing to do with corruption. There's an opportunity before us and I feel

[3:13:45] like I'm in a time warp because 30 years ago the thing that prompted me and really spurred

[3:13:53] me to get involved in one wake was the time that I kept my mouth shut when the Episcopal

[3:13:58] Housing Ministry wanted to build affordable housing apartments in my backyard, literally

[3:14:03] in the backyard of the first home I ever owned.

[3:14:08] And I said, who's going to live there?

[3:14:11] And they said, single moms, people who are just trying to make it.

[3:14:17] And I said, you know what?

[3:14:18] That's the neighborhood I grew up in.

[3:14:21] Yeah, I want that in my backyard.

[3:14:23] And my neighbor said, you are an idiot.

[3:14:26] You're going to lose everything that you ever worked for in this house.

[3:14:30] You're going to lose it all.

[3:14:31] And so I shut up.

[3:14:34] And the Episcopal Housing Ministry didn't build apartments on Dynasty Drive.

[3:14:38] so here I am 30 years later and

[3:14:46] the mood is really not any different except that

[3:14:50] the town council is listening now you're taking it on the chin for listening and

[3:14:58] I'm kind of embarrassed by that

[3:15:00] I'm sad about that.

[3:15:02] Stop, please. Let her speak.

[3:15:07] You know, rent is expensive. Wages are not keeping pace.

[3:15:13] Debt is increasing. No area in Wake County is getting ahead of this.

[3:15:19] We have got to work together to try to change this runaway system.

[3:15:24] system. We have got to stop blaming people for the hardships that the system keeps piling

[3:15:31] on them. We used to say people were down on their luck. You know, if they come knocking

[3:15:36] at the church door, we maybe didn't want to say that they were having a hard time. No,

[3:15:40] they're down on their luck, as if luck is the driving factor. We have created a system

[3:15:47] that keeps pushing people into these crises. We have to stop it.

[3:15:56] Chatham Estates was an issue in March.

[3:16:00] I was there with my camera on the last day that they gathered.

[3:16:05] I was there to capture the emotion of what was going on.

[3:16:08] I captured the emotion of several of Utah Council members

[3:16:11] who were weeping over the fact that these people were being wiped away.

[3:16:16] People said, if only we had enough money that we could buy the land out from under them,

[3:16:22] that we could keep them here.

[3:16:24] If only we could invest in them, we cared about them.

[3:16:29] We didn't have the money.

[3:16:31] We didn't have a superhero.

[3:16:32] Please let her speak.

[3:16:33] So now, when we're presented with a solution that will prevent profitability from taking

[3:16:39] over this land, what do we do?

[3:16:44] Oh, we don't want that here.

[3:16:45] We don't trust them.

[3:16:46] We don't trust anybody. Profitability is the thing.

[3:16:50] We can't afford to let these people live here.

[3:16:53] We keep calling them these people as if it's not us.

[3:17:00] Where are our priorities?

[3:17:02] Good ideas don't stop at the boundaries of our town.

[3:17:07] There's good ideas in Raleigh. There's good ideas in Zebulun.

[3:17:11] There's good ideas in a lot of places.

[3:17:13] We stand at a crossroads where we can bring collaboration in in a place that we have never done this before.

[3:17:21] Innovation is what gets us beyond the same old, same old. Innovation will carry us way beyond the 30-year problem of not in my backyard.

[3:17:39] I urge you to let this collaboration be the beginning of a new way forward for all of

[3:17:46] Wake County.

[3:17:47] Are we only a profit-motivated society, or can we think about the people that are in

[3:17:54] our community?

[3:17:55] Thank you.

[3:17:55] Your time has expired.

[3:17:56] Thank you.

[3:18:18] Good evening.

[3:18:19] My name is Samantha Bertner.

[3:18:21] My husband, Jared, and I became first-time homeowners four years ago when we bought

[3:18:26] our home in Lockmere, and we live directly across the street from the Amberwood apartment

[3:18:31] community. We can see the entrance from our windows. We're here tonight with our four

[3:18:37] children and many, many of our Lockmere neighbors to voice our objection to the Raleigh Housing

[3:18:46] Authority acquiring this property. The Town of Kerry should not authorize or enable this

[3:18:52] for all of the reasons that you've heard tonight and because the Raleigh Housing Authority

[3:18:58] is not operating on behalf of Cary and will not be a good neighbor.

[3:19:03] The Raleigh Housing Authority has an extensive application process and long wait lists which

[3:19:12] range from months to several years according to their website.

[3:19:15] The application for this public housing, and the application, I'm sorry, is for this

[3:19:23] public housing.

[3:19:24] And when public housing units become available, the next person on the waitlist is notified.

[3:19:29] This is not carry specific.

[3:19:33] Raleigh public housing in carry will move people looking for affordable housing in

[3:19:37] Raleigh out of the city, which might be in Raleigh's best interest, but is not

[3:19:41] not serving the housing needs of the people of Cary or the town of Cary's stated housing

[3:19:47] goals.

[3:19:49] This idea that the idea that this housing would be for Cary's teachers and firefighters

[3:19:54] who we love is just a comfortable fantasy.

[3:19:58] In reality, the RHA cannot guarantee that people living in Amberwood are working

[3:20:02] in Cary.

[3:20:03] And in fact, it's most likely that residents would be from Raleigh, effectively taking

[3:20:08] housing from Cary residents.

[3:20:12] This is not preserving affordable housing for Cary residents as Ms. Wailihan hopes.

[3:20:18] It will only create more public housing for Raleigh's public housing program.

[3:20:24] The reason the RHA will be a bad neighbor is twofold.

[3:20:27] First, it takes a robust property management team to maintain a clean, safe and comfortable

[3:20:32] community.

[3:20:33] I have experience with this as I was a property manager for many years.

[3:20:37] and some of the communities I worked for had low income designated units.

[3:20:43] RHA apartment communities have received many negative reviews from residents

[3:20:48] complaining about trash, dirty and stinky buildings,

[3:20:51] broken AC for weeks during our recent heat wave,

[3:20:54] and complaints about management and unresponsive staff.

[3:20:58] One resident review even said,

[3:21:00] don't move here unless you have nowhere else to go.

[3:21:04] I drove by RHA's Kentwood community and the first department I saw had a broken

[3:21:09] couch sitting on the front porch and trash all around the front door. This is

[3:21:13] not in keeping with the community standards of Lockmere and we should

[3:21:17] not invite Raleigh's dysfunctional property management choices into our

[3:21:21] neighborhood and into our communities. Second,

[3:21:28] the RHA is not

[3:21:30] accountable to the people of Cary as many people have pointed out or even

[3:21:34] to its own residents that are living at their communities. This kind of bureaucratic entity

[3:21:39] has no incentive to keep residents happy since there's a steady supply of applicants waiting

[3:21:43] to take their place. Or it's carry neighbors since it has no ties of any kind to our community.

[3:21:53] Voting yes on this resolution would not only go against the will of the community affected

[3:21:57] by this measure whom you represent and have heard from tonight overwhelmingly, but also

[3:22:02] against the best interests of Cary since it will not keep Cary housing available for Cary

[3:22:07] residents and will introduce an unaccountable government entity into our community.

[3:22:12] We urge and expect a no vote on this resolution and even more that you will take action to

[3:22:19] prevent this acquisition in the future.

[3:22:22] Thank you.

[3:22:33] Our last registered speaker is Michael Jones.

[3:22:38] Mr. Jones?

[3:22:39] I

[3:22:52] guess I'm the speaker you've been waiting for.

[3:22:56] Thank you. Nice to be here for all of my fellow Cary citizens.

[3:23:01] Most citizens of Cary are here by choice.

[3:23:04] We could have chosen Raleigh with its high rises and urban amenities,

[3:23:08] but we chose Raleigh. I've chose Cary.

[3:23:11] Cary with roughly one-seventh the violent crime,

[3:23:14] allowing citizens of all ages to enjoy time in public spaces.

[3:23:18] Cary with less than one-half the property crime.

[3:23:21] This proposal gives the Mayor of Cary, her non-appointed Rosalyn Raleigh Housing Authority commissioners, their CEO, and 134 fellow employees' operational authority over the 340 units of Amberwood Apartments.

[3:23:36] You, our Cary elected citizens, can say no.

[3:23:39] That's the only voice you will have.

[3:23:41] A yes, though, by you will mean all citizens of Kerry will relinquish our operation of

[3:23:46] this large, the operation of this large, successful Kerry apartment complex to a governor organization

[3:23:52] that answers to their citizens, not ours.

[3:23:56] Unlike private, privately owned departments, these will not be subject to the open market

[3:24:01] forces of renters with choices.

[3:24:04] Subsidized renters will not have alternative accommodations they can afford.

[3:24:08] It's a property trap for the residents who become dependent and must accept what a full

[3:24:15] market paying renter would not.

[3:24:18] Who here believes Raleigh will prioritize carry apartments, sending them the best residents,

[3:24:24] putting first their operational and maintenance funds over their own Raleigh units.

[3:24:31] This acquisition of a significant carry property by a government that does not serve us

[3:24:36] is wrong for the town of Kerry, bad for the people of Kerry, but quite the outlet for Raleigh,

[3:24:43] the citizen of Kerry voted for you. Who will you vote for?

[3:24:56] That's it for those who have signed up to speak. If you are in the audience and would like to speak, this is your opportunity.

[3:25:23] Good evening, Council. My name is Evan McGinn, and I serve at the Kirk of Kildare Presbyterian Church, and I'm a Kerry resident.

[3:25:32] In a previous role, I also served on the advisory council of the largest effort to preserve

[3:25:38] NOAA housing in North Carolina.

[3:25:41] I'll say that much of the discussion tonight has focused on whether or not 300 units of

[3:25:47] affordable housing should come to carry when I want to note that there are already 340

[3:25:54] units of affordable housing in care.

[3:25:56] And so the question is not, should these 340 units become affordable housing, the question

[3:26:04] is, do we want to lose it?

[3:26:07] Now I'll say that comes with a cost, that decision to preserve NOAA housing, which

[3:26:13] is the largest source of affordable housing in Kerry.

[3:26:17] It's 80% of all affordable housing in Wake County.

[3:26:20] community, if we want to keep that because it's vulnerable, it is the most at risk source

[3:26:26] of affordable housing in our community. If we want to keep that vulnerable and large

[3:26:32] stock of affordable housing in this community, it comes with a cost that's been talked about

[3:26:38] a lot this evening, that $200,000 number, that $15 million over 30 years. What has

[3:26:46] not been talked about is the cost of building 340 units of affordable housing which by my

[3:26:53] account with the current North Carolina Builders Association, 250,000 per unit cost comes to

[3:27:00] about $85 million.

[3:27:02] So I know there's been a lot of discussion about financial responsibility and management

[3:27:08] this evening but I would compare $85 million and $15 million and I would take this bet

[3:27:15] as a much more responsible choice. I would also just want to say that I think if you live

[3:27:22] in Amberwood, if it's managed by the Raleigh Housing Authority, you're still a Cary resident.

[3:27:31] And I'll leave that there. Thank you.

[3:27:48] Good evening, Council. My name is Reverend Wesley Spears Newsom. And I've lived in

[3:27:54] carry for about a decade now coming up on our 10th anniversary and I'm proud to live in this town.

[3:28:01] I'm a pastor at Greenwood Forest Baptist Church just down the road at the intersection of Maynard

[3:28:07] and Kildare Farm. And when I first started working in ministry and carry, one of the things

[3:28:17] that would happen a lot is folks would come in with small needs. They would come in needing

[3:28:23] a grocery card, needing a gas card, needing a bus ticket just to get to Raleigh.

[3:28:30] It's back then, we had higher fares. So thank you for that.

[3:28:36] But eventually they started coming with more.

[3:28:39] And they started coming with needs that we couldn't meet.

[3:28:44] They started coming with needs like rent that was too high,

[3:28:48] utility bills that were too high.

[3:28:50] And we didn't have the resources to help with that.

[3:28:54] And that is what led to our congregation's housing work.

[3:29:00] Many of the folks in Cary know us as people who have worked on housing and are working on housing.

[3:29:06] We were one of the founding congregations of One Wake because of this interest in housing.

[3:29:12] Because we saw it affecting the people who walked in our door and the people who sat in our pews.

[3:29:19] We have decided to take half of our property and make it available to become affordable housing

[3:29:27] because we believe in putting money where our mouth is.

[3:29:34] So one wake in Greenwood Forest and our folks are not coming to you as people who just want other people to do things,

[3:29:41] but we're putting our skin in the game too.

[3:29:45] And given my history with housing advocacy and housing work and working with vulnerable

[3:29:52] populations, when I heard details about RHA purchasing amberwood, I actually breathed

[3:29:58] decide relief.

[3:30:00] Because we've been enduring the effects of displacement for years here in Cary.

[3:30:05] Not just the high-profile examples of it, but we've been watching our housing stock disappear.

[3:30:12] I have told the story in front of council before, but the only reason I was able to move from renting in Cary to living in Cary

[3:30:23] where I work and serve the community is because someone in my family died and left us the money.

[3:30:30] And that should not have to happen to be able to afford a house. We should not be necessary

[3:30:38] for folks to die for us to be able to afford housing. And we should not have to work six-figure

[3:30:44] jobs to be able to afford housing and carry. I was relieved when I saw that RHA wanted

[3:30:50] to buy it because this is housing that serves folks who are at the 50% of the

[3:30:56] area median income right now. We're trying to do that on our campus too and we

[3:31:02] don't have as much room it's not going to be 340 units but we have been moving

[3:31:07] heaven and earth for five years for 62 units and it has cost us money and it

[3:31:13] has cost us effort and it is incredibly hard to do and it seems to me

[3:31:19] Given my experience that if we have someone who can come in and preserve affordable housing,

[3:31:26] we should become partners with them.

[3:31:29] I understand the concerns about oversight and I understand the concerns about Raleigh.

[3:31:36] And I also know that the people of Raleigh are my neighbors too.

[3:31:40] That I know that the people of Cary are my near and dear family.

[3:31:44] I love my street.

[3:31:46] I love my neighborhood.

[3:31:46] neighborhood, and I love my church and all the people who go there.

[3:31:50] And I also know that through my work with One Wake, I care about the people of Raleigh, too.

[3:31:56] And I've been disappointed to see them demonized tonight, as they have been.

[3:32:01] And I would like to see these homes stay affordable.

[3:32:04] And I would like to see the residents stay in their homes.

[3:32:10] And we can debate about the best way to do that.

[3:32:13] It seems to me, based on considering this, asking questions of RHA, and asking questions

[3:32:20] of all of you all, that this is our best option right now.

[3:32:23] So let's let people stay, don't turn Carrie into just a luxury community, and let's be

[3:32:29] good partners and good stewards, and above all, be good neighbors.

[3:32:34] Thank you.

[3:32:50] My name's Mike Dolan, like many of you have heard from, I live in Lochmere.

[3:32:54] there. The pastor was just up, seemed to make a good point. I apologize if I disagree with

[3:33:01] a lot of what you said.

[3:33:04] First question is, do you guys know what the

[3:33:06] Okidok is? Because that's what I feel like we're getting. The Okidok is where you get

[3:33:12] somebody's attention on one thing and you get them from behind on something else.

[3:33:18] The Raleigh Housing Authority has priority, as many people have said, not just is not

[3:33:25] part of Cary, but it's going to have priorities that are completely in contradiction to what's

[3:33:32] important for Cary. They're going to be managing a whole portfolio, and as some have said, the

[3:33:39] crime in one might be high or the values in another, and they're going to want to

[3:33:43] distribute that. And any of that will then start being distributed to us. If we

[3:33:49] decide we need a housing authority we need our own not one from from Raleigh or

[3:33:56] any other municipality and I've heard that there's 24 million available to

[3:34:04] start it

[3:34:08] number two the specifically with the Okie-dokie we've heard a lot of

[3:34:16] how it's 219 thousand dollars in tax per year that's going to be forgiven if

[3:34:24] If the Raleigh Housing Authority is allowed to come in, I don't think anybody thinks that

[3:34:29] there won't be an impact on property values.

[3:34:32] Take for example, let's say a house is a half a million dollars.

[3:34:37] I don't think it will go to 100,000.

[3:34:39] Let's say it only loses 10%.

[3:34:42] Let's say it becomes a $450,000 property.

[3:34:46] If you take the value of all the houses and I pulled them, there are within two

[3:34:51] miles of Amber Woods, there's 7,187 private homes. The assessed value is $4.65 billion.

[3:35:02] If you assume a 5% annual increase, which is exactly what we've averaged, that loss

[3:35:11] of property taxes along with will be over four million a year add to that the the

[3:35:21] 219,000 over the 30-year commitment you're looking at two hundred and sixty

[3:35:27] three million dollars lost in tax revenue to the town of Kerry so telling

[3:35:34] everybody oh it's only two hundred and nineteen thousand when it's really over

[3:35:38] a quarter billion dollars? That's the okey-doke. That's saying, here's one number, but it's

[3:35:45] really something else. And if you guys haven't done the math and haven't calculated that,

[3:35:51] that's because either there wasn't enough time in the process or you didn't care.

[3:35:56] It gets me to the next part. The fact that the RHA folks left makes me think they already

[3:36:03] know this is a done deal. That's one of the most telling things I've seen. In the wake

[3:36:10] of auditors finding the financial mismanagement, I think it'd be prudent to freeze any large

[3:36:15] financial decisions by the council, the mayor, the board, anybody. This is a chance to instead

[3:36:25] move forward with a different direction. If you want to send the message that this

[3:36:29] This is all for show, that this is all a waste of time, and that this was done, vote yes.

[3:36:36] Otherwise, vote no.

[3:36:39] Thank you.

[3:36:52] Good evening.

[3:36:53] Good evening.

[3:36:54] My name is Joshua Atkins.

[3:36:55] My parents are residents of Blackamere for 25 years.

[3:37:00] I grew up in a household.

[3:37:02] I still live there to this day.

[3:37:04] We live about half a mile from Amberwood.

[3:37:08] I have a disabled brother.

[3:37:10] and he often takes walks to Amberwood or you know to the church which is right

[3:37:17] across the street from Amberwood right up the street. We often take walks every

[3:37:23] day. I have been very starstruck by this because it's been brought to my

[3:37:30] attention just 10 days ago that they're going to put affordable housing in this

[3:37:40] in Lakamir, my neighborhood. So I'm speaking to you as a kid. As a kid of

[3:37:47] Lakamir, I would not feel safe with these people, not these people, but okay,

[3:38:00] I am a

[3:38:02] I have a voice just like you.

[3:38:07] I'm trying to figure out the right words to say.

[3:38:12] Because nowadays we live in a world where you cannot speak your mind without other people disagreeing,

[3:38:19] and we should be able to disagree and go on without our lives, you know, and not, you know, be neighbors.

[3:38:26] And I feel like if we put these affordable housings in, then my neighborhood,

[3:38:35] Laxmere, will become a crime-driven neighborhood, like you've heard the

[3:38:41] numbers today. Why don't we all take a trip down to Raleigh, down to these

[3:38:47] affordable housings and let's take a look around and let's take a look on how

[3:38:53] So that would fit into Cary, how that would fit into Lauchmere.

[3:38:57] My parents, what drew them to Lauchmere was the safeness of Lauchmere and the proximity

[3:39:05] to everything, the proximity of everything.

[3:39:10] You can get the Raleigh within 15 minutes, wherever you need.

[3:39:15] And my concern is today, and my question is to you guys today, would you guys put

[3:39:20] that these affordable housings in your neighborhood.

[3:39:25] Because honestly, I'm not one to be accusing,

[3:39:29] you know, you guys are elected officials,

[3:39:31] I do respect you all, as I've been raised.

[3:39:35] But honestly, I do not feel like you guys

[3:39:37] would put this in your guys' neighborhoods.

[3:39:40] This is my opinion.

[3:39:41] Other people may have different opinions,

[3:39:44] but please do not put this in my neighborhood

[3:39:47] and let my disabled brother risk his life on the street.

[3:39:52] Because if that happens, your mayor's seat and all your guys' seats will be up.

[3:40:00] And I'm of the age to vote now, so I will vote specifically for a different person.

[3:40:06] All right? Thank you, and please do not put this in my neighborhood. Thank you.

[3:40:30] My name is Kim Dakey, and I'm a terrible speaker, so just bear with me.

[3:40:39] I have actually lived in Cary for 48 years, and I haven't heard anybody here that's lived

[3:40:48] quite that long here.

[3:40:49] So I'm coming at it from somebody who's grown up, went to Cary schools, went to college

[3:40:57] in North Carolina, came back, lived in Cary, owned a house in Cary, in fact, right near

[3:41:02] mayor, Mayor Weinbrecht's house. And I'm very concerned about this public housing that's

[3:41:10] going in right across from our neighborhood. I live in Camden Forest, which is right around

[3:41:17] the corner from Lockmere. I'm not going to reiterate all the tax issues, which I feel

[3:41:25] very strongly about, especially given the fact that this city council has just blown

[3:41:37] through all of this money, which really as a taxpayer makes me and most of my friends

[3:41:45] and family extremely angry because if I overspent in my household, I'd have to cut back on a

[3:41:52] things so that I could catch up. It seems like this whole tax issue with this affordable

[3:42:00] housing unit, public housing, is not cutting back on things. It's just wasting more money

[3:42:07] that we have. And yet, it might only be $4 or $5 or $10, but what's the next one going

[3:42:13] to be? What's the next one after that? I mean, it's just going to go on and on

[3:42:19] and I just think it's a poor use of our tax money.

[3:42:24] When I first found out about this, I decided I was going to look up the RHA Housing Developments

[3:42:31] and see for myself what was going on with them crime-wise because I don't like to just

[3:42:38] listen to other people say, oh yeah, well there are a lot of crime.

[3:42:41] And what I found was extremely alarming.

[3:42:44] There's one group that rates some of these places with grades.

[3:42:52] And the only grades I saw were a C, a C minus, and an F plus for crime ratings.

[3:42:59] One is Kentwood.

[3:43:01] It had a C rating.

[3:43:02] So here's what happens with the C rating.

[3:43:05] Most of these are actually not violent crimes.

[3:43:07] There are property crimes and drug crimes, but assault was 67 percent above the national

[3:43:14] average.

[3:43:15] Robbery was 92 percent above the national average.

[3:43:19] Burglary was 50 percent above the national average.

[3:43:22] Larceny and theft was 81 percent above the national average.

[3:43:27] Vehicle theft was 83 above the national average.

[3:43:31] Kentwood is near NC State.

[3:43:32] It's not, you know, in an area that you would really consider to be super low income or

[3:43:41] anything like that.

[3:43:41] I have two kids at NC State.

[3:43:45] Capital Park, which is near William Pease University, was rated C minus.

[3:43:51] I'm not going to go into all of this, but it also had low violent crime, but very,

[3:43:55] very high property crime above the national average.

[3:44:00] The one that really, really got me, though, was Walnut Terrace, which is in downtown Raleigh,

[3:44:08] near Southeast Raleigh.

[3:44:10] This is all Raleigh Housing Association property.

[3:44:15] Very high crime, F-plus.

[3:44:18] Violent crime, 94% above the national average.

[3:44:23] So that's violent crime.

[3:44:25] Property crime was 81% above the national average.

[3:44:28] and overall had a 100% crime rate above the national average.

[3:44:36] So, and all I did was I just googled every one of these properties

[3:44:41] and I really only got to about half of them.

[3:44:44] Now, some people brought up the information about maintenance

[3:44:53] and I was reading that the maintenance requests are

[3:44:57] like there's 250 requests in

[3:45:00] Right now at Raleigh Housing Association and they're behind. How do you fill 250 maintenance

[3:45:07] requests? I mean, when my kids lived in apartments at NC State, they had to wait a week to get

[3:45:13] their air conditioning fixed. I mean, it's hot outside. What do you do? You can't wait

[3:45:17] for 250 other requests to be filled before your own.

[3:45:24] So, I just, I really feel like this has been rushed, it's been, you know, a back door type

[3:45:34] of thing and it's a crime, it's going to be, the crime alone is just alarming to me and

[3:45:41] I would urge you to vote no for it, especially you, Bella.

[3:45:45] Thank you.

[3:45:45] Hello,

[3:45:53] Mayor and Town Council.

[3:45:55] And I just want to thank everyone in this town for coming out tonight.

[3:46:00] This is great to have neighbors come together to discuss.

[3:46:05] I hope everyone for-

[3:46:07] Could you state your name, please?

[3:46:08] Oh, yes, thank you.

[3:46:09] Thank you.

[3:46:09] Jenny Lynn Tillotson.

[3:46:10] Thank you.

[3:46:10] And I live in Franklin Chase, my house, the backyard, is open to the Spate Branch Greenway,

[3:46:20] which is easily accessible from the Amberwood apartments.

[3:46:26] And I hope everyone will forgive me for not having prepared remarks,

[3:46:30] but I actually only heard about this four days ago.

[3:46:36] And at first I was very excited because I firmly believe

[3:46:44] that we should have space for everyone in our world,

[3:46:48] and we should be providing opportunities for all of us to reach out and be better neighbors.

[3:46:54] As I've been listening tonight though, I see everyone's concerns.

[3:47:03] There are ways, there are really smart ways, there are really caring ways to provide affordable housing.

[3:47:12] My brother who is a public school teacher in Iowa was hoping to move here

[3:47:18] but can't find a place that they can afford.

[3:47:22] And so I'm all for Cary being able to provide many levels of housing

[3:47:30] where everyone has a lifestyle that they can feel good about.

[3:47:35] The large scope of this development is concerning.

[3:47:41] First of all, because it is rushed, as I said, this came to me as a surprise.

[3:47:47] having only heard about it four days ago from actually a friend who lives in

[3:47:52] Loch Muir. When my house is so easily accessible to the Amberwood, I thought

[3:47:57] perhaps all of us in those surrounding areas should have been notified so that

[3:48:02] we could have time to study this out and learn about it. My hope was that as

[3:48:10] other areas have done where they do have very successful affordable

[3:48:14] affordable housing. My hope was that this was going to be more of a few units placed

[3:48:22] so that no one really can tell within the neighborhood which residents are subsidized.

[3:48:31] So there's more of a community places. I grew up in Utah and also in California and

[3:48:38] neighborhoods where affordable housing is placed highly successfully is where in a group

[3:48:45] of townhomes, one or two townhomes will be the subsidized affordable housing.

[3:48:51] But because neighbors have a chance to be seen as equal with each other, there isn't

[3:48:59] the discrimination, and there isn't an assumption of I have a reason to fear you.

[3:49:09] Or in a housing development, a few houses within that development would have a subsize

[3:49:17] or a lower income level capped for just a few of those houses, but again, none of

[3:49:23] the neighbors would know which of those houses were capped for a lower income.

[3:49:29] It made it a really wonderful opportunity in those neighborhoods where I lived in Utah

[3:49:35] and in California to be able to just reach out and be neighbors and not have any socioeconomic

[3:49:45] status assumptions go along with that.

[3:49:48] So, as much as I was super excited to know that there's affordable housing being promoted

[3:49:57] by Utah Council and by other entities in the town of Kerry, from what I've heard tonight,

[3:50:05] I don't think this has been well planned or well thought out.

[3:50:09] If what people have studied about the tax issues of taxes going to Raleigh rather

[3:50:16] than to carry is true. I think that's a mistake.

[3:50:22] I would just urge all of us, though, to find

[3:50:26] better ways to welcome all people into our lives and into our neighborhoods that we can

[3:50:33] have our distrust evaporate because there's a really wonderful thing that happens. If

[3:50:40] If you see someone as an enemy, they're going to be an enemy.

[3:50:46] But if you instead treat your enemies, quote enemies as friends, pretty soon you don't have

[3:50:52] any enemies.

[3:50:53] And we can make that happen in Cary.

[3:50:56] But it needs to be done wisely, judiciously, carefully.

[3:51:01] Your time has expired.

[3:51:02] Thank you very much, Town Council.

[3:51:03] Thank you, Cary residents.

[3:51:18] Hi.

[3:51:18] My name is Paul Kohl.

[3:51:19] I live in Lochmere.

[3:51:21] I am fairly familiar with the Raleigh Housing Authority.

[3:51:24] I have built housing, subsidized housing before.

[3:51:29] It's a terrible idea to do and carry.

[3:51:32] A terrible idea that most successful ones are when,

[3:51:35] like she said right there, when you build them,

[3:51:37] you mix them in here and there.

[3:51:39] You don't put a group together like that.

[3:51:41] The most successful ever, the crime line goes up 19%.

[3:51:44] That's the most successful.

[3:51:46] So if we can keep it very successful and raise our crime

[3:51:49] I'm only 19%, why would you want to do that?

[3:51:53] I am also a member of the Lockmere Homeware Association,

[3:51:58] the HRA, not the HRA, the Architectural Committee.

[3:52:03] Everybody has to keep their yards up.

[3:52:06] Amber Woods, no exception, like she says.

[3:52:08] It's not like people were saying before

[3:52:10] that another develop will come in here

[3:52:13] and they'll let it run down.

[3:52:14] It won't be run down, it has to be maintained.

[3:52:17] We have control over it the way it is somewhat control.

[3:52:21] If we don't, if we let Raleigh take care of it,

[3:52:25] and I'm familiar with Raleigh Housing Authority.

[3:52:28] I know how they work.

[3:52:29] I know how, believe me, it'll be an absolute mess.

[3:52:32] People in Lockmere, most of the people in Lockmere and around here don't want that.

[3:52:36] I know Bella, you've come and you've come to our neighborhood.

[3:52:40] I know your representatives over there,

[3:52:41] and I know most of the people who live in the area don't want it.

[3:52:44] I know some people who rent a lock mirror are they're okay with it

[3:52:47] I know the crowd over there who doesn't live in lock mirror is for it

[3:52:53] But as someone who lives there and someone who cares about our property our neighborhood

[3:52:58] I don't want the crime increase. I do believe it would be good to mix people in neighborhoods here and there

[3:53:05] Not all together in one section that never works out. It always raises crime everywhere

[3:53:10] where there's never been one that hasn't raised a crime.

[3:53:14] Why would Kerry want it?

[3:53:15] Why would any of you want it in Kerry?

[3:53:17] I don't understand why.

[3:53:18] Anybody who on this council, who represents Kerry,

[3:53:21] would want this.

[3:53:23] Would you want it for any of your people?

[3:53:25] I can't, I can't believe it,

[3:53:27] it's even up for consideration.

[3:53:33] But yeah, anyway, I urge you to vote against it.

[3:53:37] Please do.

[3:53:38] I know what you do is tough.

[3:53:40] I know you get criticism from all sides all the time.

[3:53:44] You know, it's got to be hard to make a decision,

[3:53:46] but for the carry residents who you represent,

[3:53:49] it's not good for us.

[3:53:51] Thank you very much.

[3:54:01] Hello.

[3:54:02] My name is Carla Libertura.

[3:54:04] I lived in affordable housing 33 years ago.

[3:54:08] My husband, David, and I moved from Syracuse, New York,

[3:54:10] where we went broke in the recession in upstate New York.

[3:54:16] We both lost our jobs in the same year.

[3:54:18] We had a one-year-old and a five-year-old.

[3:54:21] We drove down here in two cars.

[3:54:23] It took us two days in blinding snow

[3:54:25] to follow the Mayflower truck to get here.

[3:54:29] My husband started a job that Monday,

[3:54:32] and in a month, the person that hired him

[3:54:35] said she couldn't pay him anymore.

[3:54:37] Everybody was happy to not take a paycheck that month.

[3:54:40] Well, we had babies to feed, and I wasn't working.

[3:54:43] We moved into affordable housing in Durham,

[3:54:46] And I'm telling you, it saved our marriage, it saved our life.

[3:54:51] So when I hear people saying, NIMBY, not in my backyard, it breaks my heart.

[3:54:58] And you can tell I'm on the verge of tears.

[3:55:00] This community is an affluent community.

[3:55:04] We get written up and National Geographic has a beautiful affluent, caring community.

[3:55:09] But we need to open our doors to people who have less than us.

[3:55:12] There are people in this audience who are having trouble making ends meet.

[3:55:16] I've had trouble making ends meet.

[3:55:19] I became a successful financial advisor.

[3:55:21] I raised, we raised our family.

[3:55:23] We live in Lockmere now.

[3:55:25] We live in a beautiful house in Lockmere.

[3:55:27] When I go by Ambergate regularly, because I live two blocks down from there,

[3:55:31] I never see a problem.

[3:55:33] I have never seen a person from Ambergate in my neighborhood.

[3:55:44] I'm really sorry about the anger and the fear that we're hearing here tonight. We're an

[3:55:48] anger, fear-based society, and it's all in this room. Everybody's assuming the worst

[3:55:54] of Raleigh Housing Authority. What if they're trying to create a partnership with us to give

[3:55:59] people a second chance? I really hope that you will consider this proposal, and even

[3:56:06] If you put it on hold and ask them to wait so you can do more research, these people deserve

[3:56:11] a second chance.

[3:56:12] I know I did.

[3:56:25] Hi.

[3:56:26] My name is Allison Spencer.

[3:56:27] I have been a resident of Cary since I was six years old in 1996.

[3:56:34] One thing that I don't think many people have been thinking of is I work with refugees

[3:56:40] and asylees.

[3:56:41] current affordable places like Amberwood who are not controlled by a public housing authority

[3:56:49] offer some of the increasingly limited housing options for a population for these populations

[3:56:56] who are currently under extreme attack by the current administration and and that population

[3:57:06] population is currently being proposed to have barred access to accessing programs like

[3:57:11] this that they have traditionally been offered. Right now, in Lochmere, we have refugees living

[3:57:16] there. We have a refugee who lives in my home. She would not be able to go to this place.

[3:57:25] We have other people who are looking at this place to come and move that I've been working

[3:57:30] working with. Also,

[3:57:34] a lot of this reeks of what happened last year with the Waverly proposal.

[3:57:41] If the council is so concerned about affordable housing availability, why was Waverly approved

[3:57:47] with only seven apartments out of 750 apartments for affordable housing? And of those, all

[3:57:58] All seven of those are efficiency apartments. They don't even get the same level of amenities

[3:58:06] that a normal family or even a family to live in.

[3:58:12] Last year when the vote for Waverly was

[3:58:14] called, my dad called out the town's corruption to y'all's faces. Mr. Mayor, you even told

[3:58:22] how dare he impune on your integrity given the events of the last several months.

[3:58:29] I

[3:58:29] back then and I can't help but wonder what has been offered behind closed doors

[3:58:34] for this deal. Back then we had no idea just how right my dad's assumptions were.

[3:58:41] Thank you very much.

[3:58:55] Mr. Mayor, Town Council, thank you for letting us have

[3:58:59] this time in front of you. My name is David Johnson. I have been a Cary

[3:59:04] resident, a Lockmere homeowner for close to 35 years. I love my neighborhood. I

[3:59:10] I love my neighbors, we disagree all the time.

[3:59:14] But I want to stand up here right now and applaud everyone here

[3:59:18] because we've all come together, whether we like each other

[3:59:22] or we don't like each other, to do the democratic process

[3:59:25] to speak our minds.

[3:59:27] Because if we can't speak our minds,

[3:59:30] nobody's going to know what's going on.

[3:59:32] And that's what happened here, guys.

[3:59:34] This is what happened.

[3:59:37] Two weeks ago, you're my representative, by the way.

[3:59:40] Okay, two weeks ago this came in for, I came home and I found out the world was turning

[3:59:46] upside down, okay?

[3:59:49] I found it sneaky guys, very, very sneaky.

[3:59:52] I would like to ask one question.

[3:59:55] When did this first come up to the carry?

[4:00:00] Town council. What day, what month, what year did you guys start discussing this?

[4:00:07] Last week.

[4:00:08] Why did you let that fall and you jump on this?

[4:00:12] This is your time to speak.

[4:00:13] Yes, sir. Why did you let that happen?

[4:00:17] Because in one week's time, nobody can close a house. Could you close a house in a week?

[4:00:23] Can you clear? I couldn't clear out my garage in a week.

[4:00:30] Those that know me know this, but I want to say thank you to everybody that came out tonight,

[4:00:34] whether it's pro, whether it's con.

[4:00:35] I thank all of you for doing your job.

[4:00:37] I'm not going to sit here and say, you know what, you guys are a bunch of crooks.

[4:00:41] I don't think I have to say that.

[4:00:44] That's not how I meant that.

[4:00:45] That came off wrong.

[4:00:47] I want you to seriously consider what you've heard tonight.

[4:00:52] And when someone goes to buy a house, you just don't go in and buy it random and just jump all over it.

[4:01:00] That's the case. I've been in North Raleigh 35 years ago off Six Forks Road.

[4:01:04] One of the worst investments I could ever have made in my life trying to drive up and down there.

[4:01:09] So what I ask you is, if you don't vote no, at least table this so we can have more community discussion.

[4:01:17] So we can do not get angry at each other, but let's have real discussion because you did not discuss with anybody

[4:01:24] You didn't call you didn't call a lot mere you didn't call the neighborhoods around the corner

[4:01:29] Nobody send anything out

[4:01:32] period

[4:01:33] nobody

[4:01:35] So I leave this tonight

[4:01:38] Saying to all my friends not friends people. I've never met before. I've never said only about three people. I know here

[4:01:45] but

[4:01:45] But I think as a whole, we are against this, okay?

[4:01:51] You are not.

[4:01:51] That's great.

[4:01:52] Yes.

[4:01:52] Your opinion.

[4:01:54] So please vote no.

[4:01:56] I thank you.

[4:01:56] May we have a good night's night.

[4:01:58] Everybody goes home safely and take all this into consideration.

[4:02:02] I plead that you vote no.

[4:02:04] Thank you.

[4:02:14] Thank you.

[4:02:15] I might be the last, but I'll be brief.

[4:02:20] Thirty years ago, I moved into Amberwood.

[4:02:23] Give us your name, please.

[4:02:24] Bob Boldrin. Thank you. I live in Lockmere. Thirty years ago I moved into

[4:02:30] Amberwood. Loved it so much. What did I love? I loved the beauty, the beauty of

[4:02:38] Lockmere. Lockmere was to me one of the anchor PUD models of Cary. It had

[4:02:49] covenants. It had covenants, and the covenants made it special, right? It wasn't for everybody,

[4:02:58] but it was the covenants. So what do I hear today? I came here with an open mind, right?

[4:03:04] I'm going to hear, and what do I hear? It's affordable today. It's nice today because

[4:03:12] of the Covenant and Kerry. So for me, it's a vote of this. Is it better under the Covenant

[4:03:20] of Lachmere and Kerry or Raleigh? It's your vote. You think it's better off under Raleigh

[4:03:30] or under you? To me, that's the question you ask yourself. What do you think? I think

[4:03:39] I think the answer is it's better under you and it's better under the covenants of Lochmer.

[4:03:46] Okay? So I urge you to vote no.

[4:03:51] Thank you very much.

[4:03:55] Anyone else?

[4:04:10] Good evening. My name is Kim Zoegner. I've been a resident of Cary for 38 years and absolutely did not expect to speak tonight.

[4:04:19] Right.

[4:04:20] So I have, excuse me if it sounds a little scattered, I

[4:04:28] grew up in a low income family.

[4:04:30] I don't think any of us broke the law or trashed our neighborhood or endangered people who

[4:04:41] lived around us.

[4:04:45] I remember years ago someone in my neighborhood invited a bunch of us over and said we need

[4:04:51] to talk about something.

[4:04:51] we went over and they said, did you hear there's going to be some lower priced apartments going

[4:04:58] up beside our neighborhood. And we're starting a petition.

[4:05:04] And I remember standing up and saying,

[4:05:06] I'm not signing it.

[4:05:13] I've yet to see any crime or any endangerment. The property values in

[4:05:19] carrier skyrocketing.

[4:05:23] I see 1,000 square foot ranch homes that at one point I looked at as a

[4:05:30] going for $900,000 now, and then being torn down to build something bigger.

[4:05:43] I don't know

[4:05:43] all the details about what's going on with this. I haven't had time to research it.

[4:05:49] I do know that some of the research that's been thrown out tonight sounds a little sketchy.

[4:05:54] 92% higher than the national average. 100% higher. That seems like something that would

[4:06:02] be newsworthy.

[4:06:05] I'm a teacher. I've taught children who are from low income families

[4:06:10] and are doing their best to get by. And I also know that a lot of people are being pushed

[4:06:15] out around where I taught. We had low income, a low income neighborhood and now we have

[4:06:22] houses that sell for $1.6 million. And the community that was a lot of people

[4:06:28] who had grown up together and knew each other were pushed out and they now do not live and carry.

[4:06:37] But I think the thing that bothers me the most about what I've heard tonight

[4:06:41] and we can debate the legalities, it sounds like Amberwood is a community that's already there

[4:06:49] and that this is going to keep a company from coming in and raising the rates which I'm

[4:07:02] time to research all of this. But I think the thing that bothers me the most tonight,

[4:07:07] and I think that being able to talk as a community is very important. But the thing that bothers

[4:07:13] me the most is I feel like we are equating income with character. And I think that's

[4:07:20] wrong.

[4:07:23] We can't mix. All respect to people that live in Lockmere, it's a beautiful

[4:07:30] community. But there's no possibility of mixed housing there. You can't sell a house in

[4:07:38] Lockmere for $300,000, $200,000.

[4:07:46] Please, please.

[4:07:52] I just wish we would see each other as more

[4:07:55] than our incomes.

[4:07:59] And thank you for your time.

[4:08:06] Next speaker,

[4:08:19] please come.

[4:08:25] Good evening.

[4:08:33] My

[4:08:33] live very near the Emberwood facility and it has been as it's been pointed out

[4:08:38] already it already is a affordable housing and it's been being managed quite

[4:08:45] well and it has been part of the community it has been part of the

[4:08:48] Lockmere and it doesn't need to change. I also grew up in a family that did not

[4:08:56] have a lot of money did not have a nice house when I grew up and I had to

[4:09:00] work hard, pay my taxes, and work really hard to get a job in Cary. Sometimes you just have

[4:09:08] to work really hard, pay your taxes, and you get a place like Cary to live. I'm sorry that

[4:09:17] not everybody can afford to live here. There are other places that are cheaper. There are

[4:09:25] so many places to live, not that far away. It doesn't need to be right next to in

[4:09:31] Amberwood and it doesn't need to change. It is already unaffordable. I encourage you

[4:09:36] to vote no for this. Thank you.

[4:09:44] Anyone else for this public hearing? Going once, going twice.

[4:10:07] I was not planning to speak tonight and I'm not going to talk long. My name is Elizabeth

[4:10:11] a slight, I go by Libby, live in Lockmere, been there almost 40 years. You guys have all

[4:10:16] gotten my emails. The one thing that I wanted to mention that hasn't even been mentioned

[4:10:23] tonight is none of us are not in favor of low and mid-income housing. Amberwood's

[4:10:33] already there. We love it. What we are opposed to is you giving that to the Raleigh Housing

[4:10:41] Now, if we can get a bond referendum to put a $68 million park in downtown Cary, why can't

[4:10:53] we do that for Amberwood?

[4:10:56] We know that they're trying to sell it.

[4:10:58] We know that the owner wants to sell it.

[4:11:00] Fine.

[4:11:01] Let's keep it affordable, but let's keep it Cary.

[4:11:04] Make this happen.

[4:11:06] You should do this.

[4:11:07] Put the bond forward.

[4:11:09] You know we'll vote yes for it.

[4:11:12] Don't let Raleigh come in and ruin it.

[4:11:17] Don't let them, I'm sure those people are really nice,

[4:11:22] but just from what I've heard, just the fact that Raleigh doesn't have,

[4:11:27] Kerry doesn't have any control over it once it's gone, big mistake.

[4:11:31] That's all I'm going to say. Thank you very much.

[4:11:38] Anyone else for the public hearing?

[4:11:42] Anyone else? Okay, I'll close the public hearing. I'll start off with my comments. I'll be very

[4:11:53] brief.

[4:11:55] Sure. Would you be alright with that? Yeah.

[4:12:00] Ms. Wheelahan and maybe the RHA, I have

[4:12:03] a number of questions that the public brought up. I'm hoping someone can answer them.

[4:12:21] Can you address maybe the history of this property and, you know, we've heard there's

[4:12:32] some money that's put down, there's money that's coming.

[4:12:35] We've also heard about RHA being only in Raleigh, which you have shared with us.

[4:12:42] Can you give us a little bit more information about that?

[4:12:44] And also, the Covenant, some of the questions that we've heard.

[4:12:48] Can you address some of those?

[4:12:54] Good evening.

[4:12:57] Can you introduce yourself?

[4:12:58] My name is Jason Morrow.

[4:12:59] I'm the Director of Acquisitions and Strategic Partnerships

[4:13:02] for the Raleigh Housing Authority.

[4:13:04] And I'm the prime point person responsible for this acquisition.

[4:13:08] A little bit of history.

[4:13:10] The Housing Authority has a strategic plan

[4:13:13] which provides a background for our actions,

[4:13:16] which is authorized by our board.

[4:13:18] One part of the strategic plan is to preserve

[4:13:21] affordable housing where we can and when we can.

[4:13:24] In this instance, we had made an offer

[4:13:28] on some, an acquisition in Raleigh.

[4:13:32] That acquisition was not accepted.

[4:13:35] At the same time, the property in Amberwood

[4:13:39] was put up for sale.

[4:13:40] We were contacted by brokers to participate.

[4:13:42] We put in an offer, a competitive offer with a wide variety of commercial real estate investment

[4:13:50] companies and ultimately we were selected as the winning offer and at that time we then

[4:13:59] negotiated basically an agreement for access to take a look at the property that triggered

[4:14:06] the timeline and so the timeline that has been addressed tonight and the reasons why

[4:14:11] of the particular timing that it is, from our perspective was driven by the sales contract

[4:14:18] and the market process for these properties. And in general, once the agreement is made

[4:14:25] and offers accepted, typically those terms are 30 days due diligence period, which is

[4:14:31] a period for us to take a look at the property without that money becoming non-reimbursable,

[4:14:37] Meaning the earnest monies that we would put down similar to the same thing that you would do for your house

[4:14:46] So the earnest money

[4:15:00] We'll walk everyone through maybe just the timeline.

[4:15:03] I can't ask that question, right?

[4:15:06] He's trying to.

[4:15:07] So the access agreement, there are two parts basically of a purchase and sale agreement.

[4:15:14] One part is an access agreement which provides the buyer of the property an opportunity to do diligence on that property,

[4:15:22] meaning to enter the grounds, to take a look at the physical elements,

[4:15:26] to review some of the documents have been provided at that time prior to the full fulfillment

[4:15:31] of those documents set.

[4:15:33] During that time, there's a negotiation over the actual purchase and sale agreement.

[4:15:38] So these work at parallel times, but the actual timeline is triggered by the access

[4:15:44] agreement.

[4:15:45] And the access agreement, I believe, was signed on the 12th of June or somewhere

[4:15:49] very close to that date.

[4:15:50] That triggers basically a 30-day due diligence period and then a 15-day extension period which was part of that sales contract.

[4:15:59] That is why that takes us to in terms of our timeline that's driving this process to the 27th.

[4:16:07] That is the decision date by which we need to make a decision as a buyer whether or not we want to move forward with this acquisition and purchase

[4:16:15] for whether or not we decline to move forward.

[4:16:20] As a housing authority and as a fiduciary of public monies,

[4:16:24] we need to be very certain at that point in time that we can move forward.

[4:16:29] At that time, should we choose to move forward,

[4:16:32] we then have a closing period process, which is typically 30 to 60 days.

[4:16:38] In our sales contract, we have a 30-day process,

[4:16:41] And then we have another 30-day extension with a very sizable deposit that's associated with it.

[4:16:47] And so that explains basically the timeline that brought us to today.

[4:16:53] And, you know, it's already been noted why we're here today.

[4:16:56] But we need to ensure that we're compliant with the law prior to making that decision.

[4:17:03] And can you speak to the Covenant's questions by the public?

[4:17:10] I have found that discussion to be very interesting today.

[4:17:13] I haven't, myself, had very deep conversations with legal counsel, so the first thing I want

[4:17:18] to suggest is that we haven't had legal counsel conversation in regards to the Covenant.

[4:17:24] From my perspective, there's no expectation or no reason why the Housing Authority and

[4:17:30] in particular Instrumentality that were questions about capital area developments

[4:17:34] incident instrumentality, housing authorities use what we call instrumentalities, which

[4:17:39] are non-profit entities to own the properties in which we engage in. And in this instance,

[4:17:47] this would be CAD as a participating owner, which is basically otherwise known as a sister

[4:17:52] company or instrumentality. There's no reason to believe that the instrumentality would

[4:17:58] not please please let him there would be no reason to believe oh can you speak a

[4:18:06] bit a bit more into the mic there there would be no reason from our

[4:18:10] perspective to believe that we would not have to adhere to the covenants of

[4:18:15] amberwood so and nor would nor would we be disinclined to not agree to so

[4:18:20] miss Glover do you have any information that would help on that

[4:18:23] question yes I too have not done deep research on this but from my

[4:18:27] understanding from

[4:18:33] my understanding in general when you're buying property in

[4:18:36] that neighborhood you would be subject to any covenants that the property is

[4:18:39] currently subject to but they would need to confirm that with their own legal

[4:18:42] counsel not the towns. Thank you. Other questions? I have some question to our town

[4:18:54] attorney is the procedure like RHA no matter what kind of authorities come to

[4:19:04] carry as to as for a resolution what is the procedure for that and I think we

[4:19:12] need to let the public know we are compliance with the procedure. That's

[4:19:19] correct. State law as Ms. Wilhelm mentioned in her presentation,

[4:19:23] Governs all actions of a housing authority.

[4:19:26] And a housing authority created in one city that desires to operate in an adjacent city must come to that city.

[4:19:34] So in this case, carry and ask for a resolution approving their operation in the city of carry.

[4:19:41] So that's what they have done.

[4:19:43] They came to carry.

[4:19:45] And again, they've explained their timeframe.

[4:19:48] We are required under state law to provide the public hearing notice, which we did in compliance with law.

[4:19:54] And then it's before you tonight.

[4:19:57] Other questions?

[4:20:00] Please, please.

[4:20:02] Other questions?

[4:20:08] Other questions?

[4:20:11] Who will the management company be?

[4:20:13] This is council deliberation. Thank you.

[4:20:15] Who will the management company be?

[4:20:17] Our intention is the management company will be the same management company that's currently there which is gray star

[4:20:24] other

[4:20:27] Can

[4:20:29] Did I'm not sure everybody heard you can you say that a little bit louder the management company our intention is for it to

[4:20:35] remain the same

[4:20:39] Any other questions and the reason I use the word intention is because we're still in negotiation of a contract

[4:20:45] We haven't signed we haven't signed a contract and therefore we can't do that's fair. We can't hold you to it

[4:20:57] I didn't hear, Lisa, I didn't hear you say the specifics of the questions I had for staff

[4:21:08] were about the language of the public notice, the timing, the how and where it was distributed.

[4:21:14] I don't know who would be best to answer.

[4:21:16] And we complied with state law in preparing the notice and publishing it.

[4:21:20] Because Lisa, just to clarify, my understanding is, you know, I know that language of

[4:21:25] intends to adopt drew some attention, but that's the statutory language.

[4:21:32] That's the language that informs the public of what your action may be.

[4:21:36] There are, of course, many different ways you could prepare a public notice, and that's

[4:21:39] how that one was prepared.

[4:21:41] Yeah.

[4:21:41] And the timeline was appropriate.

[4:21:42] I looked it all up also.

[4:21:44] And I want to remind everyone that just Tuesday our Mayor Pratam Bhush proposed

[4:21:51] to take this proposal out of today's agenda and we did a vote on this past

[4:21:59] Tuesday that was 3-2-3 and today we open the public speaks out, public hearing

[4:22:07] just we are listening to everyone's opinion and I know this is by law we

[4:22:14] need to listen to everyone's opinion and I wish everyone will be

[4:22:20] respectful to each other because this is in discussion and we are listening to

[4:22:26] everyone same as RHA we respect everyone's opinion and we haven't we had the

[4:22:38] conversation our staff on Tuesday if you please let me talk for the council

[4:22:46] meeting, right? We had a conversation with the Lochneer HOA this Tuesday noon with our

[4:22:54] staff and our assistant town manager. We had a very good conversation and I appreciate

[4:23:02] Lochneer HOA provide enough information with us and we listened a lot.

[4:23:11] We haven't made

[4:23:12] any decision at that time. So today, the council meeting is for the decision. So our council

[4:23:21] hasn't had any decision on this proposal. And on Wednesday, we had a conversation with

[4:23:29] RHA meeting with most of our council members to deliver all the questions from Lochmere

[4:23:36] residents and today during the public hearing we have heard every question you

[4:23:44] raised today before the council meeting and I think RHA already received all the

[4:23:53] concerns from the residents and also from the council. I appreciate everyone's

[4:24:01] respectful opinions, and especially there are children in front of the camera in our

[4:24:09] council meeting.

[4:24:10] I really appreciate your word or language to be the role model of the future adults

[4:24:19] of Cary.

[4:24:20] So let's continue the conversation, but please respect the applicant, the council, and

[4:24:30] And everyone here.

[4:24:31] Thank you.

[4:24:32] Thank you, Ms. Huang.

[4:24:34] So are there any other questions for RHA?

[4:24:39] Thank you, gentlemen.

[4:24:40] Any questions for Ms. Wilhelm?

[4:24:44] Okay.

[4:24:45] So I'll give my comments very briefly.

[4:24:49] There's a lot of information.

[4:24:52] Unfortunately, some things were true.

[4:24:54] Some things were not true.

[4:24:56] But I'll give my perspective.

[4:24:59] I do have a vested interest.

[4:25:01] I live less than a quarter mile from there.

[4:25:04] I've lived in Cary since 1958, so I've been here a long time.

[4:25:11] I can talk to things that I thought were interesting, the lost revenue,

[4:25:17] and if the council votes to approve this, I would ask that we subtract that from the 1%

[4:25:24] that we give to affordable housing every year.

[4:25:27] as counted as expenditures toward affordable housing.

[4:25:30] I would ask counts to consider that.

[4:25:32] But my biggest problem with this whole thing

[4:25:35] is how it's been handled.

[4:25:37] I found out somewhere around July 10th,

[4:25:41] I got a staff report on July 13th

[4:25:44] and fielded dozens of emails,

[4:25:47] trying to provide them with the staff report

[4:25:50] so they would have information.

[4:25:52] But the problem for me is if I am making a decision and I can't give the public enough information where they understand all the details of it, then I shouldn't be defending that decision.

[4:26:07] So I cannot support that, and I realize we might be missing a grand opportunity, but

[4:26:18] we have got to, in the future, if you want to work with the Kerry Council, you have to

[4:26:24] work with the public first.

[4:26:25] They are our bosses.

[4:26:27] They are the ones that are in charge, and they have to understand what we're trying

[4:26:30] to do.

[4:26:31] And if they don't, then we can't move forward with it.

[4:26:34] So those are my thoughts and I'll let my council colleagues speak next.

[4:26:45] Can I make a motion?

[4:26:48] Sure.

[4:26:49] No, I have lots of things to say. I just wanted to defer to you as well.

[4:26:52] Oh, I, before, after mayor, I completely agree with mayor because the timing to rush and I, we had meetings on Tuesday, Wednesday,

[4:27:06] day and we have phone calls with all around partners and that makes me feel not because

[4:27:13] of today's public hearing, the angers here, just because I had the procedure and everything,

[4:27:20] the information is not enough for me to support this proposal.

[4:27:29] But during our meeting with Lockmere HOA board members, we all agree that affordable

[4:27:35] affordable housing is important for the carry residents, so it's not about affordable housing,

[4:27:43] it's about the procedure to make decision on this specific proposal.

[4:27:49] That's my comments.

[4:27:52] So first of all, I want to thank all of you for joining tonight, because this is real

[4:27:58] democracy where we hear both sides.

[4:28:00] You know, we all are fighting for the same thing.

[4:28:02] I really appreciate what Libby said in the end.

[4:28:05] You kind of summed up everybody that we are not fighting against each other.

[4:28:10] It's not a topic about affordable housing, whether we want this in carry or not.

[4:28:16] This council has been very, very responsive when it comes to affordable housing.

[4:28:20] We have gone above and beyond what we could do in the budget.

[4:28:25] We still move the needle forward for affordable housing and we will continue to do that

[4:28:30] in future.

[4:28:30] What I understand from my very brief conversation with RHA was that they will increase the rent.

[4:28:42] So it is not going to stay where it is today, but it will be at 51% AMI for 60%, 80% of

[4:28:52] the units and about 60% for 10% units.

[4:28:57] So, you know, I mean, if you think about this,

[4:29:00] the rent is still going up.

[4:29:02] It's not, at least that's my understanding.

[4:29:05] And the reason why I understand the timing issue here

[4:29:09] because I agree that we didn't have enough time

[4:29:12] to research everything.

[4:29:14] Everything is so rushed from our side

[4:29:17] that we don't feel comfortable.

[4:29:19] I don't feel comfortable at this point

[4:29:23] saying that I can wait this side or that side.

[4:29:26] and so I voted what Councilwoman Bella Wong just said.

[4:29:30] I voted in favor of, you know, tabling this for now

[4:29:34] so that we can take some time and understand both perspectives

[4:29:38] and come up with a plan which is best for care residents.

[4:29:43] I just feel like I don't want to be rushed.

[4:29:46] And in the spirit of exactly what we discussed today,

[4:29:49] and some of my colleagues may not agree with me,

[4:29:52] but this is just my perspective

[4:29:54] And I'm just one boat here in the spirit of what the findings of the state auditors are. I don't feel

[4:30:00] Comfortable at this point in rushing into any decision, especially which is going to impact

[4:30:04] Kerry in a very, very long term. And I am not looking at this whether I'm voting in favour

[4:30:11] of affordable housing or voting against affordable housing. We want affordable housing and these

[4:30:16] are affordable housing units. I actually like the suggestion, even though that is a dream,

[4:30:22] build our own housing authority and, you know, put a bond by this property and managed by Kerry.

[4:30:30] Why should we let Raleigh take this property and run for us?

[4:30:37] That's just my opinion, though.

[4:30:39] Other comments, thoughts, please.

[4:30:42] Does it matter? Go ahead.

[4:30:46] I didn't feel that I had enough time to, I couldn't have made a decision on Tuesday.

[4:30:53] I've done a lot of research, talked to a lot of people since then, and I do believe I left

[4:31:01] room for any new information that I gained tonight, and I didn't gain any new information,

[4:31:06] and I do believe I have enough information to vote tonight.

[4:31:14] I, thanks to RHA for all they do to help contribute to affordable housing, thanks to all of the

[4:31:21] diverse opinions that are here, it takes a lot to get out and speak in front of people.

[4:31:27] Some are speaking for it, some are speaking against it.

[4:31:30] We obviously cannot vote in a way to agree with everyone.

[4:31:34] And I respect my colleagues' views as well.

[4:31:37] I understand that people are upset about the misuse of funds in the town.

[4:31:43] I'm sorry that we did not provide enough oversight.

[4:31:46] We are learning and we will do better.

[4:31:48] It will take time to earn trust.

[4:31:52] I understand the concerns about the loss of tax revenue.

[4:31:59] And perhaps I can get into that more, but I have lots of other things to say.

[4:32:05] I've never been as validated as I am tonight about my choice to run for office.

[4:32:12] I know that everyone does not respect.

[4:32:15] I believe you all respect the positions that we hold, but I think it's fair to say some

[4:32:21] of you do not respect me and my role currently as council member.

[4:32:27] That is okay.

[4:32:29] That is your opinion and that is fair.

[4:32:31] Everyone's opinion is right for them.

[4:32:36] I care deeply about affordable housing.

[4:32:41] I serve as a council member and a teacher to families who receive government assistance,

[4:32:48] including subsidized housing.

[4:32:51] I work with people who, in public education, that receive government assistance.

[4:32:59] I am disappointed by some misinformation that I've heard over the last week.

[4:33:06] I am disappointed especially about a narrative that those receiving a voucher to help offset

[4:33:12] calls for housing may be associated with crime and using drugs.

[4:33:20] It's okay.

[4:33:21] You're entitled to your opinion.

[4:33:24] I know that some people who live in subsidized housing may use drugs and they may commit crimes,

[4:33:32] but so do other people who live in Cary and other places.

[4:33:39] I have taught children who lived in McDougal Terrace also because of that reference earlier.

[4:33:46] I worked in Durham before I worked in Wake County Public Schools.

[4:33:48] These are humans that deserve respect and we can address them on an individual basis instead of making sweeping statements.

[4:34:00] I have spent hours researching this and I will make the best decision that I can.

[4:34:07] And if I don't have all the information, then I own that as well.

[4:34:13] Now, I have searched the Lockmere website,

[4:34:19] and I may not have understood, but what I see

[4:34:25] is that there are

[4:34:30] condos, townhouses, and single-family homes under the Lockmere Master Association.

[4:34:40] And I can't find anything, the map of Lockmere on Lockmere's website when I compare it to

[4:34:48] where Amberwood at Lockmere is, if I have incomplete information, I own that.

[4:34:58] I have not been able to find it.

[4:34:59] I am not making my decision tonight based on the statements that they don't need renovations

[4:35:10] or whatever.

[4:35:11] I'm making my decision based on the fact about having naturally occurring affordable housing

[4:35:18] where families live with the average area median income currently is 52%.

[4:35:29] They are already low and moderate income individuals and families.

[4:35:36] I am concerned about their displacement.

[4:35:38] I see an opportunity for someone to come in and help keep them from being displaced.

[4:35:46] I don't have a crystal ball. I am not making any promises.

[4:35:52] I believe that the best vote for me tonight is to go forward with it, is to vote yes for the resolution.

[4:36:04] I respect your opinion, even when you boo me.

[4:36:12] Please, please.

[4:36:17] I understand the concern that the person raised about certain groups not being able to access subsidized housing.

[4:36:23] saying I think I saw you over here.

[4:36:25] I share those concerns also.

[4:36:27] I do believe the fact that this property is being sold

[4:36:32] makes individuals vulnerable,

[4:36:36] and I hope we can do better at a federal level

[4:36:40] to help with those policies.

[4:36:43] My view about the tax loss.

[4:36:46] Ladies and gentlemen, please let us deliberate.

[4:36:50] Please.

[4:36:51] We received emails.

[4:36:52] There are many hours listening to you, please.

[4:36:56] We received emails and people spoke tonight about the tax loss and there was one particular

[4:37:00] email that I remember that referred to it as tax loss.

[4:37:04] And I understand that, yes, there will be an effect where I believe it's 237,000

[4:37:12] for this year.

[4:37:13] We would not be collecting and then, of course, that would most likely and could

[4:37:18] possibly increase year to year and it's a 30-year commitment.

[4:37:21] We, from the time that I've been on council for the two and a half years, we've put millions

[4:37:27] of dollars into affordable housing every year.

[4:37:30] We would definitely need a conversation, but I'd be open to looking at the idea that

[4:37:34] the mayor had about however much money we want to spend.

[4:37:38] We could potentially deduct this out.

[4:37:41] This is, in my opinion, not a tax loss but an investment.

[4:37:47] Instead of collecting money and putting it into affordable housing, we are subsidizing a small, tiny bit of what could be a great benefit to carry.

[4:37:58] And I know we have some disagreement on that. That is okay.

[4:38:05] No housing when a position opens in an apartment. There is never a promise of whether people in carry are going to get that.

[4:38:16] or whether it's from another municipality, this will be no different.

[4:38:23] I hope that housing authorities continue to want to come to carry.

[4:38:30] I believe this is our opportunity, and if this turns out to be a major mistake, I will own that.

[4:38:38] Please, please.

[4:38:40] Ladies and gentlemen, please allow civil discourse.

[4:38:43] Please, I'm begging you.

[4:38:45] Let her finish.

[4:38:46] then we can take a vote, okay?

[4:38:49] We don't know yet if this will pass or not.

[4:38:53] Right now, you can see that we are divided

[4:38:55] and that is okay because just like you all,

[4:38:58] we have different opinions

[4:39:00] and we have different comfort levels with things.

[4:39:02] But if it passes, this is Raleigh Housing Authority's

[4:39:07] first opportunity outside of Raleigh.

[4:39:10] Every new thing that starts has a first.

[4:39:13] I don't believe they're predatory

[4:39:15] and coming to Cary, but if I'm wrong, I will own my mistake.

[4:39:22] Please,

[4:39:25] ladies and gentlemen, please let us finish.

[4:39:30] But I can easily justify the investment of taking this tax exemption and putting it into affordable housing.

[4:39:40] There are multiple entities in Cary that already exist as a tax-exempt entities.

[4:39:48] This is not a first and I'm happy to see what my colleagues say.

[4:39:57] Who would like to go next?

[4:39:59] I'm happy to because while I came to a very different conclusion, I do agree with much of what you just said

[4:40:07] and thank you for the fortitude to sit and say it all.

[4:40:13] I appreciate that.

[4:40:14] I do particularly feel strongly that preserving naturally occurring affordable housing is

[4:40:23] something that is well worth our time and energy, and it's just so difficult to do.

[4:40:28] It's probably one of the most difficult things to do.

[4:40:32] You know, I've yet to hear any better proposal than what was described by the report and

[4:40:41] materials and what the leaders of the housing authority described where what their intention

[4:40:51] is, and I believe this to be right and true, I believe their intention is to preserve that

[4:40:56] naturally occurring affordable housing.

[4:40:58] And I do support that.

[4:40:59] I live in, you know, 20 years in the most affordable area of Cary, which has become

[4:41:04] wildly unaffordable very quickly here downtown.

[4:41:07] town. So, you know, it's, as every time I see an affordable house torn down, my heart,

[4:41:13] it breaks. And I do want to be a part of the solution. And ideas like this, I would welcome

[4:41:21] a collaboration. I spoke to a member of the Raleigh Council today shortly before

[4:41:27] coming to this meeting. And, you know, we had a really nice brief discussion of,

[4:41:33] You know, Wake County, Raleigh, Cary, other municipalities in Wake County collaborating

[4:41:40] makes a lot of sense.

[4:41:42] You see it in our other regional partners.

[4:41:44] You see it in the Greater Raleigh Area Habitat for Humanity.

[4:41:48] You see it in the Raleigh Area Land Trust.

[4:41:52] So I do believe there's a future for us in collaborating with other entities.

[4:41:58] That being said, I think I owe my colleagues an apology because they wanted us to consider

[4:42:07] removing this from tonight's agenda.

[4:42:09] And I fought against that because I think there's two problematic things that happen.

[4:42:15] Our residents believe we vote yes on everything and we agree too much.

[4:42:20] And as in this case, you can see we certainly don't agree too much and we're not all

[4:42:24] voting yes.

[4:42:25] And I felt as though it was important for the ugly part of this process to be done publicly.

[4:42:33] I expected a little more, you know, mutual respect in the process.

[4:42:37] But so be it.

[4:42:38] You're angry with us, and you have every right to be angry.

[4:42:41] So this is the discourse, and this is what I think needed to happen.

[4:42:45] But there's no reasonable reason why we shouldn't do this exactly how we just discussed,

[4:42:53] and that's transparently.

[4:42:53] Finally, we just found out about this, and I argued to my colleagues that if we refused

[4:43:00] to hear this in the timeline that was necessary for the Housing Authority to move forward

[4:43:06] with this project, we're making a decision by not making a decision, and that is not

[4:43:11] how I work.

[4:43:12] I don't avoid hard votes, hard questions, hard answers, and I don't – any more

[4:43:19] than I respond to being bullied into a – I'm not going to be bullied into this,

[4:43:22] But I did consider all of the information that was available to me and my answer really

[4:43:28] is not now, maybe at some point.

[4:43:30] I don't know what a great project looks like.

[4:43:35] I do believe that mixed income is right for Kerry.

[4:43:38] I've said it for four years.

[4:43:39] I'll say it for four more.

[4:43:41] I do believe those projects are right here.

[4:43:45] I want to do more to shore up folks that were like me 30 years ago and didn't have

[4:43:51] two nickels to rub together and really needed a lot of help or a little help or some help

[4:43:56] at all. And I do know there are so many people in this community that want to be part of

[4:44:02] that solution. And I just want to, you know, I want to say we do hear you even when we

[4:44:07] can't move forward on the thing that's in front of us that you feel so strongly about.

[4:44:12] And I'm sorry about that. But I can't support this based off of the merits of what's

[4:44:20] in front of me, how quickly we had to consider this case and come to a decision.

[4:44:31] Do you want to go next or last?

[4:44:33] I guess I'll go next.

[4:44:35] So on the spirit of transparency on Tuesday, I made a motion to table this.

[4:44:42] As everybody has shared, we were six people.

[4:44:47] The mayor was unfortunately not able to be there.

[4:44:51] And it was the vote, as we said, was three to three and a tie, the vote fails.

[4:44:54] So that's what happened on Tuesday and there was a reason as everybody has

[4:45:00] The reason at that time was I had been also contacted by a rally council member who had some concerns.

[4:45:08] We had, I had some concerns about the RHA governance. How does it work?

[4:45:14] You know, similar questions that you all brought up. How does rally working in Cary work?

[4:45:20] You know, we don't, as you all brought up, we don't have a seat on board.

[4:45:24] or what does governance look like.

[4:45:27] And although we've absolutely followed the process, and that is the state process, this

[4:45:35] is very different than a rezoning where you have months and months to weigh in.

[4:45:43] The average rezoning takes a year or more, maybe two years.

[4:45:47] So there's lots of opportunity to weigh in, to hear, to talk back.

[4:45:51] And this process is compressed to two weeks, as you learned.

[4:45:56] We got most of our information just a couple of weeks ago.

[4:46:00] So that is new information.

[4:46:02] We're also not done this before.

[4:46:05] So everyone's doing their little bit of our own research,

[4:46:08] looking at what's in front of us.

[4:46:12] And I also knew that by making the proposal to table it,

[4:46:18] was making a decision to not make a decision, right?

[4:46:22] Because basically they have a timeline as well.

[4:46:27] I think, as Council Member Kohn-Johnson said,

[4:46:31] I think a housing authority in Cary is a good idea.

[4:46:35] Whether it's Raleigh, whether it's a regional partnership,

[4:46:38] whether it's Wake County, whether it's our own,

[4:46:41] Cary, I don't know what the right answer is,

[4:46:44] but certainly having that ability to take advantage as RHA can do in that tax way that they can allows us to invest in affordable housing.

[4:47:00] Just as a side note, we invested in the senior affordable housing called Rose Park Manor where there are 81 units.

[4:47:09] Those 81 units cost Kerry $3 million.

[4:47:15] It cost Wake County almost $3 million.

[4:47:18] And they received more than $25 million in tax credits for 81 units.

[4:47:25] Now, it is a lovely place.

[4:47:27] If you've gone or you know people that are there.

[4:47:29] But that is quite the investment for a small number.

[4:47:33] So in comparison to the 340, this investment is much more affordable if you were to compare them.

[4:47:43] And there were one last thing, that Amber Wood is a lovely community.

[4:47:50] I grew up in a single family home in subsidized housing.

[4:47:59] and I know what it's like to not have food on the table,

[4:48:04] but be entirely grateful for a roof over my head.

[4:48:08] It is, no one wants to be there,

[4:48:12] and Kerry is becoming continually more unaffordable

[4:48:15] for many of the people that live here.

[4:48:19] Amber Woods, we received some demographics.

[4:48:22] Amber Woods' median age is 31.

[4:48:24] The people that lived there, and this is real live data, are teachers and nurses, first responders,

[4:48:33] childcare workers and service workers. That is real hard data of the folks who serve our community.

[4:48:41] And I know that this is an important opportunity.

[4:48:46] And at my challenges from Tuesday still remain, I don't have the answers to a lot of the things

[4:48:59] that I need, which are how does Raleigh governance work and carry?

[4:49:08] How was the $2 million that was due diligence or earnest money was at Raleigh's money

[4:49:15] And they're, you know, are you going to want that back from Kerry?

[4:49:20] What is the place that we have?

[4:49:24] Where's the say that Kerry will have?

[4:49:27] But the biggest concern I have right this moment is the fact that we don't, I'm very glad you brought up,

[4:49:33] we don't know enough about the covenants.

[4:49:35] We know that our ordinance will obviously still play a role.

[4:49:42] There are too many unanswered questions still for me.

[4:49:47] They have not changed.

[4:49:49] A bunch of them were answered.

[4:49:51] I will give RHA credit for that.

[4:49:52] But there's still a number of other questions that need to be answered for me.

[4:49:57] I am an affordable housing advocate.

[4:50:01] I believe the folks that live in Amberwood should be able to stay in Amberwood.

[4:50:06] And I want this to happen.

[4:50:09] But I don't have enough information to support it at this time, and that's that's where I am

[4:50:15] I'll

[4:50:21] make some brief remarks, but councilmember Craig has one more question. Oh

[4:50:26] first I thought you met after I would I

[4:50:31] Would like that I would like RHA to answer the question about

[4:50:36] the two million dollars because I was told that no money was received from the city of Raleigh

[4:50:49] and

[4:50:50] And Mayor Pro Tem, Lori Bush was in a different meeting than me, so I want to make sure we

[4:50:59] have both this information.

[4:51:00] No, I'm glad you.

[4:51:01] It was one of my questions on my list to ask, and I first.

[4:51:03] So the question, again, is the $2 million in earnest money that was paid.

[4:51:09] So that money is refundable.

[4:51:12] And we'll come back to the housing authority.

[4:51:15] The money.

[4:51:16] I think she was asking where it came from.

[4:51:19] Was it Raleigh's?

[4:51:20] I was told you had not received money from the City of Raleigh.

[4:51:24] No, no, no.

[4:51:25] We don't.

[4:51:26] We use solid resources.

[4:51:27] So could you tell us a tiny bit more?

[4:51:30] We're probably voting no, it sounds like, but could you provide a time?

[4:51:34] Because I think it's important that people know that I did do research.

[4:51:39] Yeah.

[4:51:39] I mean, I've gathered this information, but where do you get your funding?

[4:51:42] Where do we – the Housing Authority does have reserves that are unrestricted from operation

[4:51:49] of properties that are non-fed role and not subsidized.

[4:51:54] We have workforce housing that pays for itself and earns – you know, it has cash flow.

[4:52:02] So with reserves built up, we can make that investment.

[4:52:06] and we also have other sources of income in bond fees that we issue bonds for all tax

[4:52:17] credit deals in the county and we own bond fees from that.

[4:52:20] So we do have unrestricted funds coming in that we can use to assist.

[4:52:26] From other properties.

[4:52:28] Have those been funded by the City of Raleigh?

[4:52:32] No.

[4:52:34] Now, we have not received any funding from the City of Raleigh for this.

[4:52:38] Can you clarify where those projects funded, similarly to what you described to me when

[4:52:44] I asked you how this funding works with the kind of self-funding where you purchase the

[4:52:52] property and the rents are really what's paying the mortgage, so to speak.

[4:52:56] So which property is the properties that we developed or redeveloped?

[4:52:59] What we're trying to understand is, remember I kept asking you, is there any commingling

[4:53:05] of Raleigh taxpayer funds with how you're paying for this project?

[4:53:11] And I think we're trying to really understand, you know, right down to the penny whether

[4:53:16] or not there is.

[4:53:18] I mean, the short answer is there's no Raleigh tax money that is going into this.

[4:53:24] Okay.

[4:53:25] Not at all.

[4:53:29] Thank you.

[4:53:30] Thank you.

[4:53:31] Thank you.

[4:53:31] Appreciate it.

[4:53:33] Okay, folks, I'm last, and it's late, and I'm clearly not casting the deciding vote,

[4:53:39] so I don't really have to offer a comment, but I feel compelled to speak to the constituents

[4:53:45] of Cary so you understand why I cast a vote the way that I do, and I'm going to be upfront

[4:53:51] to give you time to react so that hopefully I can get through the rest of my remarks

[4:53:55] and tell you that I am voting yes tonight.

[4:54:00] The resolution is not going to pass, so like I said, this is not decisive, but in the interest

[4:54:06] of transparency, I want to let you know why my vote is yes.

[4:54:10] And so Council is not tasked with making decisions slowly.

[4:54:14] We are charged with making decisions thoughtfully and seeking community input.

[4:54:19] And as evidenced by my full inbox and the full house here tonight, residents are

[4:54:25] engaged.

[4:54:25] And I agree with my colleagues, if they feel that they did not have enough time to have their questions answered, then they should not vote for it.

[4:54:36] I, however, feel that I had enough time to have my questions answered to my satisfaction.

[4:54:41] That was talking to our counterparts in Raleigh.

[4:54:45] That was meeting with the applicant.

[4:54:47] That was consulting a police chief salt about crime statistics in our community.

[4:54:52] And so what I heard here today was a lot of concerns about change, which I totally understand.

[4:54:59] You know, I drove through Amberwood myself today, and it's lovely.

[4:55:03] I see why you don't want to change it.

[4:55:05] The change of ownership is not our choice.

[4:55:08] The current owner is selling, and the current owner is an investment firm in Florida.

[4:55:13] And so, you know, the concerns about if the ownership has the interest of carry at heart,

[4:55:18] The ownership of any given property doesn't necessarily have ties to our community.

[4:55:23] And so I was willing to think of our partners and our neighbors in Raleigh as owners that would be owners in good faith as any owners were.

[4:55:32] And that's not to cast dispersions on an ownership company in another state, but they are also not local neighbors.

[4:55:40] They don't, you know, that company is not based in Cary.

[4:55:43] And so, I believe of all the likely outcomes that RHA ownership is a scenario most likely

[4:55:51] to keep the community the same.

[4:55:53] The residents who live there now stay in their homes, professional property management stays

[4:55:57] the same.

[4:55:58] Affordable housing has been a top concern, not just of many on council but also the

[4:56:03] community.

[4:56:04] And it was one of the top concerns in our most recent Cary survey.

[4:56:07] And what I hear most often is that carry is a prosperous community, but people are getting priced out of living here.

[4:56:17] And honestly, I hear less about building brand new affordable housing, which is an important tool.

[4:56:22] But I think folks think more about maintaining the affordable housing for the people that live here.

[4:56:28] I personally don't think it's a myth or a fallacy to say that preserving Amberwood means that the teachers

[4:56:35] and the firefighters and the police officers who live there now would get to stay there.

[4:56:40] You know, the other population I hear a lot about is when people say,

[4:56:43] I raised my children in Cary, I'd love for them to, they went away to college,

[4:56:48] they want to move back, I'd love for them to be able to live here.

[4:56:52] Well, those are the young professionals, the median age is 31.

[4:56:56] Those are the people who are living in Amberwood.

[4:56:59] And I see a parallel with Chatham Estates, one of the commenters mentioned Chatham Estates.

[4:57:04] That situation dismayed a lot of neighbors that Cary residents were being displaced and in that case, Cary couldn't intervene.

[4:57:12] We assisted our non-profit partners, but we couldn't prevent that displacement from happening.

[4:57:17] And in this case, we do have an opportunity to preserve a community.

[4:57:21] And so I believe the investment is worth it, especially compared to the cost of new construction.

[4:57:26] And that's why I'm voting yes tonight.

[4:57:29] Okay. Anybody else?

[4:57:33] If we're ready for a motion, I would entertain a motion.

[4:57:39] If you want to.

[4:57:41] I'm sorry.

[4:57:42] Council Member Huang had mentioned that she wanted to make a motion.

[4:57:46] So I wasn't sure if you still wanted to make that motion.

[4:57:48] Yes, because similar to Tuesday, I still on the same page would love to table this.

[4:58:01] I think RHA has made it clear if we table it, that will be effectively a no vote.

[4:58:09] Of course, you can make that motion if you would like.

[4:58:12] I would just say that tabling from my perspective, I would support a table.

[4:58:18] You haven't made the motion yet, so I'll just say that.

[4:58:21] But because my concerns do need additional information.

[4:58:27] And I do think that some of these, over time, I might have the answer in order to vote yes

[4:58:34] or no.

[4:58:35] But right now, if I'm pressed to vote, I don't have enough answers to support it.

[4:58:41] But if you were to vote to tabling it, I would support that if that was your motion.

[4:58:45] But, again, we do know that RHA has said that they need an answer.

[4:58:53] Before next Monday.

[4:58:56] Which is essentially no.

[4:58:59] Yes.

[4:58:59] A table this proposal means no.

[4:59:06] If that is your motion, I would second it.

[4:59:10] My motion is to table the RHA to purchase Emberwood in Kerry.

[4:59:17] Is that right?

[4:59:18] Okay. Is there a second?

[4:59:20] I'll second. It's the same motion we did on Tuesday.

[4:59:23] Further discussion?

[4:59:25] Yeah, I would just like clarification from Lisa, please, on understanding that RHA has their own independent decision to make,

[4:59:34] whether this is a vote to table or this is an up or down vote.

[4:59:37] Is there any practical difference to us in terms of calling this a table, you know,

[4:59:44] in terms of saying that we're tabling it or in just voting no?

[4:59:49] I mean, does this obligate us to then have to return to it on another agenda or?

[4:59:55] It doesn't obligate you, it leaves it open so that it could come back to you at a future time.

[5:00:00] And you may not ever bring it up again, so I mean.

[5:00:04] Couldn't it also, if we voted it no tonight, still come before us again?

[5:00:10] The housing authority or a different housing authority would need to make a different proposal.

[5:00:14] Okay.

[5:00:16] So we have a motion on the table to.

[5:00:19] And a second.

[5:00:20] And a second to table this item.

[5:00:23] And I understand, to be clear, I understand that folks at this table, some are ready

[5:00:29] to make a decision. But my reason still stands that I don't have enough to support it.

[5:00:36] So I think so. I agree with Mayor Bruton Bush. That's exactly what I said. I don't have

[5:00:42] enough information to vote yes or no. I mean, if I really have to vote today, it would

[5:00:48] be no, between yes and no.

[5:00:53] Please, please.

[5:00:55] So in discussion, I will support your motion, but I'm thinking that is a no vote.

[5:01:03] So that's...

[5:01:03] The result is equal to no.

[5:01:06] All right.

[5:01:06] So any other comments in discussion?

[5:01:09] There's a motion on the table, all in favor?

[5:01:11] Please say aye.

[5:01:13] Aye.

[5:01:13] Those opposed?

[5:01:15] No.

[5:01:15] So, motion carries 5-2, 5-2, and this item is tabled and that's it.

[5:01:24] The council will now take a five-minute recess.

[5:01:28] This

[5:08:22] meeting at this time we have two discussion items.

[5:08:25] First discussion item is 25RAZ03.

[5:08:29] Kalec, senior living of carry rezoning and planning manager Aaron Puckett will give a report

[5:08:35] and we'll hear from the planning and zoning.

[5:08:37] We'll hear the Planning and Zoning Board's recommendation, and Council may take action.

[5:08:43] Ms. Puckett.

[5:08:43] Thank you, and good evening, Council.

[5:08:46] On a lighter note, this request is to rezone approximately 7.4 acres located at 1005 and

[5:08:52] 1017 Breedy Creek Road.

[5:08:55] You held a public hearing for this request last year in June, and you may make a decision

[5:08:59] this evening.

[5:09:00] The site is located south of the intersection of North Harrison Avenue and Breedy Creek

[5:09:04] Road with frontage on both streets, and it's largely surrounded by detached residential

[5:09:09] development.

[5:09:11] The Parks Recreation and Cultural Resources System Plan indicates a greenway corridor along

[5:09:16] the southern edge of the property.

[5:09:18] The site is currently zoned R40, and the applicant proposes to rezone the site to

[5:09:24] Office and Institutional Conditional Use, or ONICU.

[5:09:29] The applicant has offered several zoning conditions to limit uses on the site to

[5:09:35] life care community and nursing home. For context, these uses could include facilities

[5:09:40] similar to Searstone or Glenair. Additional conditions include a minimum of 40 and maximum

[5:09:47] of 75 residential units, which would be just over 10 units per acre. Commit to construction

[5:09:54] of the greenway onsite, as shown on that PRCR system plan I showed a moment ago.

[5:09:59] And to construct it at least 35 feet from the southern property line, such that an

[5:10:03] average 30-foot wide area will remain undisturbed, limit buildings on the site to one story and

[5:10:10] 35 feet in height, provide a 75-foot building setback from the Southern Property Line, as

[5:10:17] well as a 75-foot parking space setback from the Southern Property Line. Drive aisles could

[5:10:22] be closer. Provide a bus stop pad along the North Harrison Avenue Frontage, and provide

[5:10:29] a slide path along the North Harrison Avenue frontage consistent with the PRCR system plan

[5:10:34] and bike plan. That would be a 12 foot wide facility but could be reduced to no less than

[5:10:38] eight feet in constrained situations. That would be reviewed and approved by staff at

[5:10:42] time of development plan.

[5:10:46] The planning and zoning board reviewed the request at their

[5:10:48] March meeting earlier this year. Board members had generally positive comments that noted

[5:10:53] the proposed uses are needed and carry. One member requested the applicants ensure

[5:10:57] a minimum number of units. Some noted the need for a wider multimodal facility along

[5:11:02] North Harrison at the time a six foot sidewalk was offered. And some commented that larger

[5:11:11] buffers or open space could help with transitions to nearby residential neighborhoods. Ultimately

[5:11:17] the board did find it consistent with the carry community plan by a vote of 8 to 1.

[5:11:24] The applicant made a number of changes to the proposal following the planning and

[5:11:27] zoning board meeting. They added that minimum number of units for 40 units in addition to

[5:11:32] the maximum. They increased the greenway separation from the southern property line by 5 feet,

[5:11:38] so the minimum separation would now be 35 feet. I do note this condition does not supersede

[5:11:43] LDO requirements, limiting buffer disturbance, so it is possible the LDO could require

[5:11:48] the trail to have a slightly greater separation at time of development plan.

[5:11:53] They also increased

[5:11:54] the minimum side path along the North Harrison Avenue frontage. Previously they

[5:11:58] They had offered six-foot sidewalk, and now they've offered to meet the 12-foot wide option

[5:12:02] in the PRCR system plan and bike plan, but narrow it to eight feet in areas of constraint

[5:12:08] as approved by Cary staff.

[5:12:12] Staff found the proposed use is consistent with live policies and is supported by the

[5:12:16] Future Growth Framework designation.

[5:12:18] The shape policy regarding transitions is addressed by an increased building setback

[5:12:22] and the one-story building form.

[5:12:25] The commitment to constructing the site's greenway segment and providing a multimodal

[5:12:29] facility on North Harrison Avenue, helps meet, move, and engage policies.

[5:12:34] There's no clear commitment to open space or tree preservation beyond minimum LD requirements

[5:12:39] to address in rich, but overall the proposal meets most applicable plan policies and staff

[5:12:45] therefore recommends approval of the request.

[5:12:49] This concludes my presentation.

[5:12:50] I'm available for questions, and the applicants team is also available.

[5:12:54] Should you have questions for them?

[5:12:55] Thank you, Ms. Puckett.

[5:12:56] Do we have questions from this, or are we ready for a motion?

[5:13:01] I just have one quick question.

[5:13:03] I know, I know, I know.

[5:13:05] How tall is a one-story building usually?

[5:13:08] So it depends.

[5:13:09] This is more of an institutional type building,

[5:13:12] so it could be more like 15 feet,

[5:13:14] but that's not a requirement in our code.

[5:13:17] Can you explain one story slash 35 foot then to me?

[5:13:20] So they could go up to 35 feet.

[5:13:22] We have had facilities, even apartments in the past,

[5:13:24] that have sort of a one-and-a-half story appearance

[5:13:29] or have like a mezzanine type.

[5:13:31] Trium.

[5:13:32] Yes, so this just gives them some flexibility

[5:13:34] should they have high ceilings.

[5:13:36] Okay, thank you.

[5:13:37] I just couldn't get past the 35.

[5:13:40] I understand, yes.

[5:13:42] That's my only question.

[5:13:43] Other questions.

[5:13:44] I just have an observation.

[5:13:46] It feels lonely here now.

[5:13:48] What's that?

[5:13:49] It feels lonely here now.

[5:13:51] You're lonely?

[5:13:52] Come on, that's for some giggles.

[5:13:55] I just wanted to say that I appreciate the changes made since planning and zoning board

[5:14:01] And we there's a shortage of CCRCs and it's growing and so you know that would be a welcome addition to the

[5:14:08] Community because that's exactly the kind of facility. We really need yeah

[5:14:13] I and I I'm not going to repeat anything anyone else said so keep moving and getting along

[5:14:18] I appreciate specifically the wider sidewalk to 12 feet especially for bike folks and understanding is narrower.

[5:14:29] The other thing is that I reached out to some folks and I find it very interesting.

[5:14:34] We didn't receive any email from any concerned homeowners this time.

[5:14:39] So either they let it go or they're okay with the changes as well.

[5:14:46] Yeah, they must be okay, but I appreciate all the conditions and I think this is going to be a great project. Thank you

[5:14:52] Yeah, I'll be candid and say

[5:14:54] You know we don't make a decision until we are taking a vote and so I was leaning no on this

[5:15:00] It felt to me a little bit like, you know, we know that the land that's left to develop

[5:15:04] and carry is often not yet developed because it presents logistical challenges. And so it

[5:15:10] felt to me that maybe we were having a little bit of a square peg in a round-hole situation

[5:15:15] here despite the real need for the housing. But I'm also happy to see the changes since

[5:15:22] planning and zoning. I think the applicant was mindful of that. You know, whenever

[5:15:26] we're making any one of these decisions, thinking about also what are the alternatives. And,

[5:15:32] you know, we have so many pressures for density and height. And so, for this to be a needed

[5:15:39] type of housing with a height that's going to fit in with a neighborhood character,

[5:15:44] we've addressed some of the transition issues by extending the buffer. I appreciate all

[5:15:50] those measures.

[5:15:52] Make a motion that we move to adopt the following documents attached to the online agenda for

[5:15:58] the statement of consistency for 25REZ03 calyx, senior living of Kerry, and the rezoning ordinance

[5:16:04] for 25REZ03 calyx, senior living of Kerry.

[5:16:08] Second.

[5:16:09] There's a motion and a second.

[5:16:10] Further discussion?

[5:16:12] All in favor, please say aye.

[5:16:13] Aye.

[5:16:14] Any opposed?

[5:16:14] Motion carries unanimously.

[5:16:16] Thank you, Ms. Puckett.

[5:16:17] Thank you.

[5:16:17] We now move to our last discussion item, yay.

[5:16:22] It's anti-retaliation policy protection for reporting improper activities.

[5:16:28] Interim Town Manager Russ Overton will present this item in Council May Tech Action.

[5:16:33] Mr. Overton.

[5:16:34] Thank you, Mayor.

[5:16:35] Before you, with just a little bit of night left,

[5:16:38] is a new policy to establish an anti-retaliation policy.

[5:16:41] And we talked about this in more detail at this past Tuesday's work session.

[5:16:46] Carried does not have a formal standalone anti-retaliation poly to provide comprehensive

[5:16:51] organization-wide coverage.

[5:16:53] We do, however, have policies and standards on anti-harassment, non-discrimination, as

[5:16:59] well as grievance procedures that provide some protections.

[5:17:04] I'm not going to read them all, but this policy implementation is mentioned in three

[5:17:11] of the recommendations listed from recent outside reports listed here on the screen.

[5:17:17] This policy would also establish a tip line and we are currently that someone could call

[5:17:23] and report retaliation and we'll research options and make that part of the standard procedure

[5:17:29] as we implement it.

[5:17:32] There is no direct fiscal impact associated with approving this policy.

[5:17:35] However, with the operating tip line there could be some cost we'll research that

[5:17:39] and if it's of an appropriate fee that we need budget appropriations, we'll bring that

[5:17:43] back to you.

[5:17:46] So the next steps if council approves this anti-retaliation policy, we'll publish it,

[5:17:51] we'll communicate it to staff, and throughout the organization there will be training and

[5:17:55] we'll develop the supporting standard procedure to be able to implement it.

[5:17:59] So with that, we'd recommend that council adopt a policy statement 190 for anti-retaliation

[5:18:06] of protection for reporting an improper activity, and I want to point out that we also, as was

[5:18:12] recommended by council on Tuesday's work session, add the language to the policy that you were

[5:18:19] emailed earlier today that I believe it states direct to create a standard procedure

[5:18:23] to further implement this policy to include requirements for training for new and existing

[5:18:27] employees on a periodic basis.

[5:18:30] Thank you for that.

[5:18:30] I appreciate it.

[5:18:31] I think I also sent you an email, Russ, about how do we report this back to the council?

[5:18:41] Can we have some sort of reporting structure on a quarterly basis?

[5:18:47] How is the feedback?

[5:18:49] How are things working?

[5:18:51] What kind of issues are we hearing about?

[5:18:54] Okay.

[5:18:54] I probably didn't see that with all the other emails of the day.

[5:18:59] What if we, obviously recommending that you adopt this policy statement if we work on that

[5:19:04] within a standard procedure and try to implement in that way and then also give us some time

[5:19:09] to think about it because we'll have to be careful how we report and we probably need

[5:19:13] to be thoughtful on how we report because there's an anonymity to this with regards

[5:19:18] to who, so if it's data and how many calls or something like that I'm sure that would

[5:19:23] be easier report, but maybe we work that into the standard somehow. And certainly you can

[5:19:28] always ask me for anything you'd like.

[5:19:31] Okay. That's fine.

[5:19:34] Go ahead.

[5:19:35] No, I'm saying that's fine. Just putting that into standard operating procedure.

[5:19:39] Other questions or are we ready for a motion?

[5:19:42] Quick comments. I just want to say that I'm sorry that we didn't push for a survey.

[5:19:48] Last year, we requested a year prior for a survey to happen for employees, and I take personal responsibility.

[5:19:57] I did not follow up on that, and I'm sorry for that.

[5:20:00] And I'm sorry that, as was described in the Wabba Bond Dickinson Report today, that a negative workplace culture developed

[5:20:11] And that we were not able to prevent or that from happening or for making it worse

[5:20:17] And so that I'm happy that we're putting things

[5:20:19] Wow, I'm happy that we're putting things into place

[5:20:23] To help make sure that doesn't happen in the future

[5:20:27] If we vote yes

[5:20:31] anybody else

[5:20:33] ready for a motion I

[5:20:35] Move that the council adopts policy statement 190 the anti-retaliation

[5:20:40] protection for reporting improper activity a second motion and a second

[5:20:44] discussion all in favor please say aye I oppose motion unanimously that

[5:20:50] concludes our business I would entertain a motion to so moved second there's a

[5:20:56] motion and a second to adjourn discussion all in favor please say aye I

[5:21:00] oppose motion carries and we are adjourned on Thursday so is it on

[5:21:06] Thursday.

[5:21:07] Of course it was Thursday.

[5:21:07] You said!

Cary Council Meeting – July 23, 2026

Transcript