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[0:00]
Okay, everyone. Um,
[0:03]
we got it and it was
[0:06]
something as stupidly simple as a cable
[0:09]
that is somehow loose.
[0:13]
So, when our IT department adjusted this
[0:17]
cable, it worked. Had nothing to do with
[0:20]
the technology at all.
[0:25]
Um, okay. But anyway, here we are. Uh,
[0:29]
I'll introduce everybody. My name is
[0:31]
Jason Shaw. I'm the chairman of the
[0:33]
Rockport Planning Board. And to your
[0:36]
right, my left, is the vice chairman,
[0:39]
Tom Mikas. To my right, is Bob Simmons,
[0:42]
planning board member. To his right is
[0:45]
Peter Cutner. And to his right is our
[0:49]
town planner, um, Betsy Wear.
[0:53]
So
[0:55]
we're here uh for an information session
[0:58]
on seasonal communities
[1:01]
and
[1:04]
the reason that u we're doing this is not a required meeting. We've
[1:10]
already had our public hearing,
[1:12]
but as is often
[1:16]
the public hearings and then they come
[1:18]
to town meeting and say, "Well, what is this all about or why do I not
[1:22]
know about that?" So, try to we've done
[1:26]
this before with other projects and it
[1:29]
seems to work to just have an informal
[1:32]
information session so you all can um
[1:36]
ask questions. I'm going to just go
[1:38]
through this. It's not a very long
[1:40]
PowerPoint at all. I'm going to go
[1:42]
through it and then we have a podium up
[1:45]
there if you want to get up there to ask
[1:46]
a question. We have fans going on here
[1:49]
because this room is supposedly 84
[1:52]
degrees. Uh we opened a window, but
[1:57]
trying to talk from your seated position
[2:00]
is going to be a challenge for everyone
[2:01]
to hear you with the fans going. So, it
[2:03]
would be good if you could get up there
[2:05]
and use the microphone. Um, so what are
[2:08]
we doing today? Uh,
[2:11]
all right, next slide. Okay,
[2:15]
what is a, uh, seasonal community?
[2:19]
We're going to answer your questions,
[2:21]
tell you what a seasonal community
[2:23]
designation is, who's received the
[2:25]
designation, we have, how did we
[2:28]
qualify, and what next? If the
[2:30]
designation is approved at town meeting,
[2:33]
that's kind of the next step here. We're
[2:36]
at that point now where the Executive
[2:39]
Office of Housing and Livable
[2:41]
Communities has given the town of
[2:43]
Rockport a seasonal community
[2:45]
designation,
[2:47]
but that is not effective until that is
[2:51]
approved at town meeting by a simple
[2:54]
majority vote. So, that's where we are.
[2:57]
We're up to that point.
[3:00]
And then we'll go over what the time
[3:02]
frame is after the designation to do
[3:04]
some things. What are some of the
[3:06]
benefits that come with a seasonal
[3:08]
community designation?
[3:10]
And how does this tie into Rockport's
[3:14]
accessory dwelling unit bylaw? And then
[3:18]
the last uh question is, are we stuck
[3:21]
forever with the designation? And um no,
[3:24]
the answer to that is no. So no one no
[3:27]
one has to worry about that. Okay. So
[3:30]
what is a seasonal community
[3:31]
designation? It was established by a
[3:34]
2024 Massachusetts general law
[3:37]
and Massachusetts as you know has been
[3:41]
really I don't want to use the word
[3:43]
desperately but I think I will trying to
[3:46]
bring down the cost of housing in the
[3:48]
Commonwealth because it's very high
[3:51]
especially in the eastern part of the
[3:54]
state. So, how they're doing that is
[3:56]
they've come up with a bunch of zoning
[3:59]
tools that they want local
[4:01]
municipalities to adopt that will help
[4:03]
them be more flexible in the zoning that
[4:07]
allows housing that is maybe less than
[4:11]
your traditional,
[4:13]
you know, cookie cutter housing. And um
[4:16]
so
[4:18]
here because of Rock, as we know,
[4:20]
Rockport is a is a community that has a
[4:23]
big influx of people in the summer. Um
[4:27]
and when the summer's over, the
[4:30]
population goes down. Housing is
[4:32]
extremely expensive here. For anybody
[4:34]
who looks at any kind of housing
[4:37]
transactions, you'll realize that the h
[4:39]
the cost of housing in Rockport is is
[4:42]
very is one of the highest costs outside
[4:45]
of the Boston metro area. So, here are
[4:48]
some of the factors that the Executive
[4:50]
Office of Housing and Livable
[4:52]
Communities looked at when they decided
[4:54]
to grant Rockport a seasonal communities
[4:58]
designation.
[5:00]
We have a
[5:02]
substantial variation in seasonal
[5:04]
employment. We have a high a high rate
[5:07]
of short-term rentals in relation to
[5:09]
overall housing. We have a significant
[5:12]
population increase in seasonal
[5:14]
visitors. And we have significant
[5:18]
disparities between the area median
[5:20]
income and income needed to buy a home
[5:23]
in Rockport.
[5:25]
And lastly, the percentage of housing
[5:29]
used for seasonal, occasional, or
[5:31]
recreational use or otherwise not a
[5:34]
primary residence by the owner is high
[5:38]
in Rockport. That's why we say like
[5:41]
Rockport because these really all apply.
[5:43]
In fact, if you look at a a map of the
[5:47]
areas that fit the this description,
[5:51]
most of them are on Cape Cod in that
[5:54]
area. And those are all seasonal
[5:57]
communities. The whole Cape Cod uh
[6:00]
peninsula is a seasonal community
[6:02]
essentially. The other area of seasonal
[6:05]
communities is in the western part of
[6:07]
the state in the Birkars. There are some
[6:10]
towns there that have that designation.
[6:13]
And then you see way up in the northeast
[6:15]
corner, one community that meets all
[6:18]
these criteria. It's Rockport. The one,
[6:22]
not even Gloucester, but Rockport. So
[6:25]
we'll go to the next uh slide kind of go
[6:28]
through this. 43 towns has received the
[6:31]
seasonal community designation and
[6:33]
including three entire county, Dukes
[6:35]
County, Nantucket County, Berkshire
[6:37]
County. Um and others have received it
[6:41]
because they've asked for it and we're
[6:44]
one of the ones that have asked for it.
[6:45]
They didn't automatically grant it to
[6:47]
us, but that's okay. It wouldn't it was
[6:49]
very easy to get for Rockport.
[6:53]
Um, we we received the designation from
[6:56]
the Executive Office of Housing and
[6:57]
Livable Communities on February 18. And
[7:01]
there it shows the percentages, the next
[7:04]
two uh items of why the EOHLC granted it
[7:10]
to Rockport because of those percentage
[7:12]
numbers that are shown on your screen.
[7:15]
And as I mentioned earlier at the
[7:17]
beginning that to retain this
[7:19]
designation,
[7:21]
we must approve at a town meeting.
[7:25]
All right.
[7:26]
>> Jason.
[7:28]
>> Yes.
[7:29]
>> On that previous slide, those two
[7:32]
percentages,
[7:34]
are they actuals for Rockport or is that
[7:36]
just the threshold?
[7:37]
>> No, that's for Rockport. Those are
[7:39]
Rockport's percentages. And those are
[7:41]
the two percentages that the executive
[7:45]
office of housing and livable
[7:47]
communities in their letter to us
[7:50]
approving it for Rockport. Um those are
[7:53]
the two percentages they cited in their
[7:55]
letter.
[7:57]
So,
[7:59]
this is this next part is kind of
[8:02]
important and people need to listen to
[8:03]
what I'm saying carefully because it we
[8:06]
found at our town at the uh public
[8:08]
hearing that there was some confusion
[8:10]
and I'm not blaming anybody. It was just
[8:13]
it was confusing and we realized there
[8:15]
was some confusion.
[8:18]
The first thing is um
[8:22]
if we want to retain the seasonal
[8:24]
communities designation, what must we do
[8:28]
as a town?
[8:31]
And then there's another part to that
[8:34]
which is what
[8:37]
can we do as a town but is not required.
[8:40]
very important to understand that
[8:43]
distinction between the two because what
[8:45]
must what we must do is actually
[8:48]
relatively small compared to what we can
[8:52]
do. So there are a lot of topics here
[8:54]
that I know people are going to want to
[8:56]
talk about like affordable housing and
[8:58]
how do we do that and everything that's
[9:01]
for another day because that's one of
[9:04]
the things that we can do but we don't
[9:08]
have to do. So they they'll require
[9:11]
their own zoning laws or bylaws or
[9:15]
general bylaws depending on what it is.
[9:17]
So here are the two things we must do.
[9:20]
We must create zoning that allows for
[9:23]
what um for tiny housing as of right in
[9:28]
a single family residential district.
[9:30]
And I'll show you some pictures of tiny
[9:32]
housing in a in a moment.
[9:35]
A tiny house is a detached house that is
[9:38]
the principal dwelling on a lot and is
[9:40]
not more than 400 square feet of floor
[9:43]
area. So that's pretty small, but people
[9:47]
can live in them and live well.
[9:50]
uh under this tiny housing
[9:55]
provision which we have not which has
[9:56]
not yet been drafted and will not be
[9:59]
drafted until this seasonal communities
[10:03]
designation is approved and then we have
[10:06]
24 months to get it passed. So it's not
[10:09]
anything that's going to happen as of
[10:12]
April 12th after town meeting. uh tying
[10:15]
tiny housing must be year round and it
[10:18]
must comply obviously with state and
[10:20]
local building codes. You have to have a
[10:22]
bathroom. Okay, so that's one of the
[10:25]
things. The second thing that we must
[10:27]
do, again this is within 24 months, is
[10:30]
we must create zoning that allows for
[10:34]
mandatory year round residences,
[10:38]
i.e. Under the law, it says no fewer
[10:40]
than 10 months occupancy on undersized
[10:43]
lots. Now, what the state defines as an
[10:47]
undersized lot is at a lot that's at
[10:51]
least 10,000 square feet or 25% of the
[10:55]
minimum lot size of the residential lot
[10:58]
area where the where the resident is
[11:01]
located, whichever is greater. We
[11:03]
already have quite a few lots that meet
[11:06]
this description. in town. We already
[11:09]
have them. But just to let you know, we
[11:11]
must we must create zoning that allows
[11:15]
for
[11:17]
these they call undersized lots that
[11:20]
allows for these lots in the town.
[11:25]
All right, here's some here's some tiny
[11:27]
houses
[11:29]
thanks to our architect members.
[11:34]
Pretty nice, actually. I kind of like
[11:36]
them. Um, think of how much less
[11:38]
cleaning you'll have to do. Um,
[11:43]
anyway, they're all examples of tiny
[11:45]
houses all over the
[11:48]
>> the country. All over the country. Yeah.
[11:50]
And you can see the variation
[11:53]
that uh they have.
[11:57]
So,
[11:59]
as I mentioned earlier, Rockport must
[12:01]
adopt these two zoning provisions at the
[12:03]
town meeting within 24 months from the
[12:05]
designation if it's approved on April
[12:09]
11th.
[12:13]
Now,
[12:14]
here are um here are the things that we
[12:19]
could do that could be done, but they
[12:23]
don't have to be done. And there's no
[12:25]
time limit on when they can be done
[12:27]
either. There's no 20 the 24 months only
[12:31]
applies to those first two
[12:34]
things we talked about, tiny houses and
[12:36]
undersized lots.
[12:38]
Okay, these are these are what are in
[12:41]
the law. It's what's in the
[12:44]
regulations. And I can tell you right
[12:46]
now that even for the state, these this
[12:51]
is a work in progress for them. I mean,
[12:53]
they don't really have these things all
[12:56]
fleshed out, but they have enough to
[12:58]
tell you that these are some options you
[13:01]
might want to take. Okay. First of all,
[13:03]
creation of a housing trust fund for
[13:05]
affordable housing,
[13:07]
ability to create a preference for
[13:10]
seasonal community essential employees.
[13:13]
And what that means are people who work
[13:16]
in, you know, emergency services and
[13:18]
other services in the town who are
[13:21]
really essential to the operation of the
[13:23]
town, essential to, you know, health and
[13:26]
safety of the town. You can you could we
[13:31]
could create um housing that is where
[13:36]
they're preferential.
[13:38]
If you want to know the details here are the regulations. You're welcome
[13:43]
to come read them, but I'm not going to
[13:45]
get into it now because that'll be a
[13:47]
long meeting. Okay, this is an
[13:49]
interesting one. Allow for the creation
[13:51]
and preservation of artist housing.
[13:54]
for a household with at least
[13:56]
one person who produces or supports
[13:58]
artistic and literary activities. That's
[14:01]
kind of interesting. So certainly for
[14:05]
Rockport, which has a history of being
[14:08]
an artist colony many years ago, uh this
[14:12]
is I think it's kind of interesting that
[14:15]
it could be promoted again
[14:19]
and maybe people who have sons or
[14:21]
daughters who are artists who might want
[14:22]
to live here, they might be able to have
[14:25]
housing for not much money. Who knows?
[14:28]
So,
[14:29]
and then two, the last two are allow for
[14:32]
the development of a comprehensive
[14:34]
housing needs assessment. You could do
[14:36]
it up to twice annually.
[14:39]
Uh, and there, by the way, there's
[14:40]
supposedly some money for this stuff,
[14:42]
too, but again, it's not
[14:45]
I I don't know the details. And then the
[14:48]
other the last thing which I think
[14:49]
everybody
[14:51]
perhaps everybody in this room would be
[14:53]
interested in is that raise the property
[14:56]
tax exemption for yearround residents.
[14:59]
Well, that's that would be interesting.
[15:02]
In other words, like some communities I
[15:04]
know in other states do that. If you're
[15:06]
a year- round resident, you pay one
[15:08]
level of property tax and if you're not,
[15:12]
you pay a different level, which is
[15:15]
interesting. So
[15:19]
the other thing that this will do
[15:23]
this um
[15:26]
uh commun uh seasonal communities law is
[15:28]
that it'll help us fix a hole in our
[15:33]
accessory dwelling unit bylaw which has
[15:36]
actually been on the books since 2022
[15:39]
when it was adopted.
[15:42]
We had a minimum rental period in that
[15:44]
bylaw of six months. And the idea there
[15:48]
was to prevent people building ADUs or
[15:53]
converting garages into accessory
[15:55]
dwelling units and simply renting them
[15:57]
out as short-term rentals over the
[15:59]
summer. So, we put a six-month minimum
[16:02]
in it. It was debated at that time what
[16:05]
the minimum should be. 6 months won out.
[16:10]
the a year was proposed, but that didn't
[16:12]
it didn't resonate with the voters. So,
[16:15]
we had we had six months.
[16:17]
In 2024, the Commonwealth implemented
[16:20]
its own statewide protected ADU law and
[16:26]
it allowed for it said that you Rockport
[16:29]
and all the other towns in in the U
[16:32]
state needed to allow ADUs in all
[16:35]
residential districts, which we hadn't
[16:38]
before that. Before that, I was in
[16:40]
certain already somewhat dense
[16:43]
residential districts, we allowed ADUs,
[16:45]
and that was in the 2022 law. But now,
[16:48]
they've said you got to allow them
[16:49]
everywhere. So, right now, they're
[16:51]
allowed everywhere in the town, whether
[16:53]
you have a if you have the setbacks and
[16:55]
everything and have the size ADU,
[16:59]
uh, you can put it in any zoning
[17:01]
district in the town.
[17:03]
So
[17:06]
we in 2025 based on what the
[17:08]
Commonwealth did and its protected ADU
[17:10]
law, we readopted our ADU law
[17:15]
uh to permit ADUs in all districts and
[17:20]
we readted our sixmonth
[17:24]
uh minimum rental period. Sounds like
[17:28]
great. I mean, you're promoting um
[17:31]
longer rentals. You're trying to get
[17:33]
away from short-term rentals. You think
[17:35]
that that would be good, but no. The
[17:38]
attorney general came back and said,
[17:40]
"Uh,
[17:42]
we think that's an unreasonable
[17:43]
restriction on the
[17:46]
ADU.
[17:49]
We're going to make it so you have a
[17:51]
minimum rental period of what our law
[17:55]
says, which is 31 days.
[17:58]
So, don't try to figure this out because
[18:01]
we were trying to encourage longer
[18:05]
occupancy of ADUs and the and the
[18:09]
attorney general said, "No, you're
[18:11]
unreasonably restricting ADUs and you can only have a 31day
[18:19]
uh minimum." But they said, and we've
[18:23]
confirmed this with them, if you get the
[18:27]
seasonal communities designation, we
[18:30]
accept that you can reinstate
[18:33]
the sixmonth
[18:35]
minimum rental period that you had
[18:36]
before. So that's one of the incentives
[18:40]
for
[18:42]
the town to adopt this. A secondary
[18:45]
incentive is that we are then allowed to
[18:48]
bring back at least six month uh in
[18:52]
terms of a rental period and
[18:57]
Oh yeah.
[19:00]
So
[19:02]
it's this is a very flexible
[19:04]
designation. If we accept it,
[19:07]
we can at town meeting revoke it. it's
[19:10]
not working out, we can revoke it and no
[19:13]
penalty, maybe lo maybe losing some
[19:16]
money, who knows, grants, if we reject
[19:19]
it
[19:20]
at the town meeting coming up, it can be
[19:24]
um submitted later for a vote and we
[19:26]
don't need to go back to the
[19:29]
uh executive office of housing and
[19:32]
livable communities and get a new
[19:33]
designation. The designation that
[19:36]
they've issued stands. we would just
[19:38]
have to put it up for another vote at
[19:40]
town meeting.
[19:42]
And lastly, they the state can revoke
[19:47]
the designation if we don't comply with
[19:51]
this 24month
[19:53]
uh period where we need to adopt these
[19:55]
two provisions or if we're just not
[19:58]
really doing anything to permit new
[20:00]
residential units. uh they can come in,
[20:03]
you know, look at what we're what we
[20:05]
haven't done and say, uh, you know,
[20:06]
we're going to revoke our designation.
[20:08]
But those
[20:11]
that's pretty much it. Okay. Thank you.
[20:15]
Um, so we'll open it up for questions.
[20:19]
I'm not I'm going to let other me board
[20:22]
members answer questions and also Betsy.
[20:25]
Um, if you want to ask a question. Oh,
[20:29]
we see have someone already. Great. And
[20:33]
um
[20:34]
please just state your name and address
[20:37]
and try to talk in the mic because
[20:40]
>> Can you hear me?
[20:41]
>> Maybe we Hey, Tom, could we turn that
[20:43]
fan off
[20:44]
>> because I I'm looking at the thermometer
[20:46]
there and I can see that the temperature
[20:48]
has dropped in this room from from the
[20:50]
84 degrees that it was before. So,
[20:53]
>> it's about 52 in that corner over there.
[20:57]
>> Can you hear me? You'll keep you'll stay
[20:58]
awake.
[20:59]
>> No.
[21:00]
>> Get closer.
[21:01]
>> Yeah. Bring it real close.
[21:02]
>> Yes. Bring it real close.
[21:03]
>> All right. Can you hear me? Is that
[21:06]
better?
[21:06]
>> Yes.
[21:06]
>> Yeah. A little bit better.
[21:08]
>> Um just a couple of
[21:09]
>> Yeah. I mean, we opened it because it
[21:10]
was boiling hot in here. Um I It's kind
[21:14]
of hard to close. It's a heavy window.
[21:16]
>> Maybe some guy can or strong gal can get
[21:20]
up there.
[21:22]
>> You have to lift it up to get You have
[21:24]
to lift it up.
[21:27]
Okay. P1 at team.
[21:28]
>> There you go.
[21:33]
» All right. If it gets too hot,
[21:37]
» there's there just a couple things. One is I used to live in Charletown. I
[21:41]
had a house that was um
[21:43]
>> I'm going to close this. Okay. No one
[21:45]
needs to see this,
[21:46]
>> right?
[21:47]
>> Okay. Go ahead. Um, my house had a a
[21:51]
small footprint and it was one of those
[21:54]
typical brick row houses in Charles Town
[21:56]
that's small. So, I used to joke that it
[21:59]
was um two rooms and a ladder going up
[22:02]
three floors. Um, but the footprint was
[22:06]
um just it was 500 square feet. So, um
[22:09]
what I'd s I don't know if the it just
[22:12]
got into the language this way, but the
[22:14]
minimum it really has to be constrained
[22:16]
to 400 ft. If that could be two stories,
[22:19]
I think you've got you're you're in
[22:21]
business with something that actually is
[22:22]
more flexible. And there u most of the
[22:25]
images that you had there were two of
[22:27]
them that were single floor and the rest
[22:28]
of them were either two or three floors.
[22:30]
>> Um I would feed that back to the state
[22:33]
and see if you can get that folded in
[22:34]
because it will make it um
[22:36]
>> it'll make it more space for people and
[22:39]
it's definitely livable. Um the other
[22:42]
the next point was um for artist spaces
[22:45]
you need a living space and you also
[22:46]
need a um a working space. So when I was
[22:49]
thinking about this I thought I could
[22:51]
have a tiny house and then I could get
[22:52]
one of those you know boat houses which
[22:55]
are you know boat house kits and then
[22:57]
make that into a studio and attach it or
[23:01]
you know have it close by. Um that's it.
[23:04]
I really am very glad to see the
[23:06]
possibility of artist space. at the
[23:08]
cultural council we've been talking
[23:09]
about. Where can we find it? It's the
[23:11]
top on the list. We did a survey of
[23:14]
artisan who you were interested had
[23:16]
gotten grants and from the cultural
[23:18]
council and that was the top one. So,
[23:21]
thank you.
[23:22]
>> Great. Now, these are these are good
[23:24]
points. Um, and once this CEO
[23:29]
community's designation is approved,
[23:31]
assuming it's going to be, working on
[23:35]
the points that you brought up would be
[23:37]
the next step.
[23:39]
>> I'd be happy to help.
[23:41]
>> Great. Thank you so much.
[23:42]
>> Can I add something to that?
[23:44]
>> Yeah, go ahead, Betsy. Go ahead.
[23:46]
>> Um, the tiny house, the first floor
[23:50]
footprint is 400 square ft. the it
[23:54]
doesn't it's exclusive of loft space.
[23:57]
So, I'm not sure how they define loft
[23:59]
space. Yeah. But I think there's
[24:01]
probably a fair amount of wiggle room.
[24:03]
Plus, um they the state executive office
[24:08]
of housing and livable communities is
[24:10]
working on a draft bylaw for tiny houses
[24:15]
and they've stated that they are going
[24:17]
to be a little flexible. So, um I think
[24:21]
that um the images that were shown, some
[24:24]
of them were probably
[24:27]
400 square ft exclusive of the loft
[24:30]
space. Um some of them were obviously a
[24:32]
little bit bigger. I'm ready to move
[24:34]
into one. Um but in any case um the
[24:38]
state as as Jason said is working on um
[24:44]
some drafting and they're still trying
[24:47]
to kind of ek out some of the details.
[24:49]
So I I think as long as we kind of watch
[24:52]
what's going on, there should be some
[24:55]
flexibility.
[24:59]
» Do I hold the button?
[25:00]
>> Go ahead. Is it Are you on? It's green.
[25:03]
If it's green, you're on. Okay.
[25:05]
>> U Ben Hughes, 147 Main Street. I was
[25:08]
just a little confused about the two
[25:09]
mandatory requirements, the ADU and then
[25:12]
the um
[25:14]
the second one. So the ADU said
[25:18]
I mean, excuse me, the Chinese house
[25:20]
designation was if it was a primary
[25:22]
residence on a lot. So it's a lot with
[25:24]
no housing.
[25:26]
>> It's that's it's completely separate
[25:28]
from an ADU.
[25:29]
>> Yeah. That
[25:32]
>> they're two different animals, right?
[25:33]
with no living space on it at the time.
[25:36]
And is it for a
[25:37]
>> No,
[25:40]
>> we we still we still need to develop the
[25:43]
zoning rules and regulations for the
[25:46]
tiny houses. So, we may decide that on a
[25:49]
quarter acre lot, you can have three
[25:52]
tiny houses, for example,
[25:54]
>> maybe they're condos.
[25:55]
>> Yeah.
[25:56]
um we we have to establish all those
[25:59]
regulations, but the tiny house right
[26:01]
now is kind of limited to this 400 plus
[26:03]
loft space area. An ADU on the other
[26:07]
hand requires that there's a primary
[26:09]
dwelling already on the lot.
[26:11]
>> Okay?
[26:12]
>> And then that ADU can be um up to 900
[26:16]
square ft, but
[26:18]
>> a maximum of half of the uh principal
[26:21]
dwelling unit space. So if you have a
[26:24]
>> a 1500 foot house, it can only be 750
[26:28]
ft². But but that is a se a separate set
[26:32]
of rules. Yeah.
[26:33]
>> Sure. And just one other quick point of
[26:35]
information is we qualified for the um
[26:39]
seasonal designation by the fact that
[26:41]
our short-term rental
[26:44]
percentage was 3.25%. Or was that the
[26:47]
actual for Rockport or was that the sort
[26:49]
of minimum?
[26:50]
>> Oh, that's Rockport.
[26:51]
>> Okay. And and do I mean is that like
[26:54]
Airbnb types or does that include like
[26:56]
hotels and things too or
[26:58]
>> uh I they say short-term rentals that
[27:01]
generally means like an Airbnb type
[27:03]
thing.
[27:04]
>> Okay. Yeah.
[27:04]
>> So if somebody already has like a garage
[27:07]
of apartment that's rented out
[27:09]
seasonally or by the week that's already
[27:11]
in that percentage
[27:14]
>> probably.
[27:15]
>> Yeah. I mean that's how they calculated.
[27:17]
Basically, how they figured it out is
[27:19]
they the state collects
[27:22]
excise tax on all short-term rentals. If
[27:25]
you have a short-term rental, you have
[27:26]
to register it.
[27:28]
>> So, they know how many legal ones at
[27:31]
least that are in the town of Rockport
[27:33]
because they collect the tax and they
[27:34]
know
[27:35]
>> the number of units.
[27:37]
>> But, as far as you know, that doesn't
[27:38]
include the ins or um
[27:40]
>> No, no, that does not it does not
[27:42]
>> that does not does not include ins.
[27:44]
>> Yeah. Okay. And these are these are
[27:45]
conservative estimates too. Betsy could
[27:48]
talk a little bit more about that maybe,
[27:50]
but um this is information gathered from
[27:54]
four or five different sources including
[27:55]
the US census, local tax data, all kinds
[27:59]
of things. Uh especially for the houses that are um occasionally
[28:06]
used. In other words, they're claiming
[28:09]
their houses in Florida and they have a
[28:11]
second house here. So it's not it's not
[28:14]
counted. Um so there's a fair amount of
[28:17]
those in town as we all know. Um so the
[28:20]
numbers are the percentages are likely a
[28:23]
fair bit higher actually than these uh
[28:26]
the 16% that you saw on the screen.
[28:29]
>> Okay. Hi.
[28:30]
>> Hi. Uh Paul Bryant, five Avenue. Uh just
[28:33]
a quick question for clarification. Uh
[28:36]
the second requirement is for undersized
[28:39]
lots. Uh that would be for existing lots
[28:42]
in Rockport. Would that also be for
[28:45]
future development? If there's uh a
[28:48]
subdivision being created, will they be
[28:50]
able to uh h uh at that point create a
[28:54]
large number of undersized lots?
[28:56]
>> Um yeah, I don't think that there's uh
[28:59]
it doesn't just talk about existing
[29:00]
lots. It talks about lots that would
[29:03]
meet that criteria that could be
[29:05]
created. So basically from this point on
[29:08]
the de facto uh zoning would uh across
[29:12]
town would be 10,000 square foot for uh
[29:17]
as for residential.
[29:18]
>> Well okay we we haven't done the zoning
[29:20]
for that yet. And so there could be
[29:23]
areas of the town where undersized lots
[29:26]
are allowed and other areas where
[29:29]
they're not allowed.
[29:30]
>> But that that comes later. We have to do that.
[29:35]
According according to this, it's
[29:36]
required, but it's not required across
[29:38]
the whole town. Required
[29:40]
>> just said required, but not across the
[29:43]
whole town. Doesn't mean we have to do
[29:44]
it across every zoning district in the
[29:46]
town if that's what you're asking.
[29:49]
>> Okay. Just uh just trying to get a
[29:51]
better idea.
[29:51]
>> No, understood. Yeah.
[29:52]
>> Yeah. Yeah. The idea of it's it's
[29:55]
future. Everything's future future ADUs,
[29:58]
future tiny houses.
[30:00]
>> And then Yeah. We can normally we would
[30:03]
not be able to create a lot that's uh
[30:05]
>> smaller than what's our current zoning
[30:08]
for one unit I think 5,000 square ft but
[30:11]
now we might be able to create lots that
[30:13]
are smaller potential
[30:15]
>> I'm all for teeny houses I just want a
[30:16]
little clarification thank you
[30:19]
>> so we should add that there's also
[30:20]
minimum frontage
[30:21]
>> right there there there are other things
[30:24]
in that to your point sir there are
[30:27]
other things in that
[30:29]
in their framework for such a law that
[30:33]
make it easier to create an what they
[30:36]
call an undersized lot because the the
[30:39]
setbacks are less than would necessarily
[30:43]
be applied and the frontage I think it's
[30:45]
like 20 feet or something is the
[30:47]
frontage I just looked at it recently
[30:49]
but you know again
[30:52]
once we sit down and start talking about
[30:55]
developing zoning that allows these
[30:58]
things that's where I we get into the
[31:01]
details about where and how much and all
[31:05]
that stuff.
[31:06]
>> I I would add I think originally they had hopes of the 10,000 square ft
[31:13]
lot being much smaller, but they
[31:15]
realized a lot of towns have septic
[31:17]
systems only and would require a certain
[31:20]
area for the septic systems. So, they
[31:23]
upped they upped the number and they're
[31:25]
working on those details. That may
[31:27]
change in the future.
[31:31]
Hi.
[31:32]
>> Hi. My name is Suzanne. I live on Twin
[31:34]
Light Circle.
[31:35]
>> Suzanne
[31:36]
>> Deore.
[31:37]
>> Okay. And where? I'm sorry I couldn't
[31:38]
hear you.
[31:39]
>> Twin Light Circle.
[31:40]
Yes.
[31:41]
>> Listen to the mic.
[31:42]
>> Oh, sorry.
[31:43]
>> You can hold it up if you want. I mean,
[31:45]
>> okay. Um, so my question is a little bit
[31:49]
um just regarding the economic impact to
[31:52]
the town and small like local businesses
[31:56]
with this. Um, I think it's super great
[31:58]
to provide more affordable housing for
[32:01]
sure around the area, especially
[32:03]
Rockport, but
[32:05]
um, a lot of the I guess economic like
[32:10]
prosperity for the town is coming from
[32:11]
tourism and with I guess putting
[32:15]
restrictions on ADU for short-term
[32:18]
rentals and taking away possibly some
[32:20]
opportunities for different other
[32:22]
short-term rentals. Um it will lessen
[32:25]
the amount of tourists that come to the
[32:26]
area and since our like economic system
[32:31]
in Rockport is so dependent on the
[32:34]
tourism and travelers here, do you think
[32:36]
there would be any impact on the like
[32:39]
what the town can provide for the
[32:41]
community members if that shifts?
[32:46]
>> All right, let me see if I understand
[32:47]
what your question is. Are are you
[32:50]
asking whether
[32:52]
>> I'm asking if there's less tourists to
[32:54]
Rockport, but we have more year-round um
[32:58]
community members, what kind of economic
[33:00]
impact that's going to have long term on
[33:01]
Rockport? Because a lot of the goods and
[33:04]
services that people from Rockport are
[33:06]
receiving now are not in in the town.
[33:08]
So, they are going into Gloucester or
[33:10]
surrounding areas to purchase things.
[33:13]
And if you think that would change by
[33:17]
putting um more year-round
[33:20]
people living in Rockport, I
[33:21]
>> mean, if we if we if in the future more
[33:24]
restrictions
[33:25]
>> restricting would having less tourists
[33:27]
to the area cause more harm than more
[33:31]
year-round residents.
[33:32]
>> Um does anybody want I mean I have some
[33:35]
thoughts on that. Anybody else want to
[33:37]
answer that? Try to answer that.
[33:38]
>> Well, just just a couple couple
[33:40]
thoughts. um you're going to you're
[33:43]
going to essentially with with this ADU
[33:47]
uh six-month lease cap, you're going to cap the uh ADU growth
[33:53]
theoretically from where it is now. So,
[33:56]
it's not going to get any less
[33:58]
necessarily. Um it's going to stay the
[34:00]
same,
[34:01]
>> but
[34:02]
>> and then you would have
[34:04]
future future accessory dwelling units
[34:07]
would be year round. So you're going to
[34:09]
have more yearround residents here nine
[34:11]
more months a year
[34:13]
>> coming to eat at the restaurants, shop
[34:15]
at the shops, go to the schools, support
[34:18]
all of that system. So you're going to
[34:20]
have in general a lot more locals coming
[34:23]
in for future growth.
[34:25]
>> So existing ADUs would not be subject to
[34:28]
the six months.
[34:29]
>> No. No. If you're already an ADU and you
[34:31]
didn't if you have an existing ADU,
[34:34]
you're you're already there before the
[34:37]
zoning changed. this the ADU law that
[34:41]
was adopted in 2022
[34:45]
only affects new ADU conversions. Mhm.
[34:49]
>> And by the way, there have been there
[34:50]
have been a few there actually have been
[34:53]
quite a few conversions because we're
[34:55]
right next door to the uh building
[34:58]
department and you know it right now
[35:00]
they can just go to the directly to the
[35:02]
building department and get a building
[35:04]
permit or if they have a setback issue
[35:07]
then they they come to the planning
[35:09]
board. I I just want to make sure your
[35:12]
question was answered, which I think is
[35:14]
are you saying it with more full-time
[35:18]
housing, will it negatively impact the
[35:20]
number of tourists? Is that what you
[35:22]
were asking? Um, I just think because
[35:24]
the town's economic is so the town's
[35:28]
economy is so dependent on tourism, if
[35:30]
you take away the different areas that
[35:33]
they the short-term rentals that they
[35:35]
would stay at and you replace it with
[35:38]
year-round people. It's It's great for
[35:41]
community building, but it's going to
[35:43]
probably take away some of the some of
[35:46]
the tourism dollars that are coming into
[35:48]
Rockport, which would be used for
[35:49]
>> Well, that that's a that's an
[35:51]
interesting question. Um, I don't get
[35:55]
the sense that the number of ADUs that
[35:58]
will be affected,
[35:59]
>> not ADUs in in exclusivity, but like you
[36:03]
also mentioned normal restrictions on
[36:05]
short-term rentals. I don't think any of
[36:07]
this housing will uh stop the tourists
[36:11]
from will lessen the tourists from
[36:14]
coming to Rockport. It just it's not
[36:16]
going to be it's not going to have that
[36:17]
much of an impact. We don't we're just
[36:20]
not going to have that much housing. You
[36:21]
know, even this affordable housing,
[36:24]
we're not going to have that much to
[36:26]
really impact that. I I see your point.
[36:29]
Uh though, thank you.
[36:30]
>> Thank you.
[36:31]
So, I'd like to add that the the town
[36:34]
has a lot and I don't know the numbers,
[36:37]
but I will find out the numbers of um of
[36:42]
ins and guest houses and um motel. So,
[36:48]
all of those I'm assuming are pretty
[36:50]
booked for the for the summer. Um so,
[36:53]
you're still going to get that influx.
[36:56]
Um, this is kind of jumping the gun a
[36:59]
little bit, but I did do a little
[37:01]
research on on artists and um, there are
[37:06]
roughly, according to the census, there
[37:08]
are about 80 people in town that
[37:11]
actually
[37:12]
make a living doing their art. And um,
[37:16]
the art association has has said there's
[37:19]
roughly 300 artists in their
[37:22]
organization.
[37:24]
um not all of them can afford to live in
[37:27]
town. So some of them are from
[37:28]
Gloucester or a little bit further away.
[37:31]
But um you know if if the town decided
[37:35]
to
[37:37]
do the optional thing down the pike, say
[37:40]
five years from now of um doing
[37:43]
something to promote artist housing and
[37:46]
artist live workspace. um that would
[37:50]
probably
[37:51]
um bring Rockport back a little bit to
[37:55]
where it was um in the 1920s, 1930s,
[38:00]
1950s in terms of art colony. Um which I
[38:04]
think is a pretty interesting um
[38:06]
concept. So um
[38:11]
that's all I have for now. Thanks.
[38:13]
>> Jason should we should probably be
[38:15]
clear. This isn't about taking away any
[38:18]
current short-term housing. It's about
[38:20]
future conversions of ADUs. Yeah.
[38:22]
>> And the sixmonth uh minimum is a
[38:26]
separate item on the warrant. It doesn't
[38:28]
necessarily have to pass.
[38:31]
>> The six month
[38:32]
>> six month.
[38:32]
>> Yeah. I mean, it could it passed once
[38:36]
and
[38:38]
I would think twice, right? So, it'll
[38:42]
probably pass again, but I guess
[38:44]
anything can happen.
[38:46]
Hi. Uh, Rich Lurigan, 78 Granite Street.
[38:51]
Um, so it's it's good and and to have a
[38:54]
provision. I like the provision for
[38:56]
housing for artists, but is there a
[39:01]
reason why we don't have a provision for housing for town employees?
[39:07]
Well, actually, that was one of the uh
[39:09]
again, this is optional. It's not
[39:12]
required, but one of the pro one of the
[39:17]
provisions that the state wanted to
[39:19]
encourage was housing for what they
[39:22]
called essential employees.
[39:26]
>> I didn't see that up there on the
[39:29]
>> I think it was there. Yeah, I think we
[39:31]
talked about it.
[39:32]
>> So, there will be if there's going to be
[39:34]
one for artist, there will be one
[39:37]
considered seriously for town employees.
[39:40]
uh if that's what the voters want in a
[39:44]
year or two when we start crafting some
[39:47]
of these zoning provisions, there could
[39:50]
easily be one, but that's it's it's not
[39:53]
required just like the one for artists
[39:56]
isn't required, but it's one that the
[40:00]
planning board could draft and then you
[40:03]
know on an information session like this
[40:05]
present it and you make your comments.
[40:08]
But it's but none of neither of these
[40:10]
are required
[40:12]
zoning provisions.
[40:13]
>> So some of these provisions will have to
[40:15]
be brought up next year for all of them.
[40:19]
>> All of them
[40:20]
>> like the employee.
[40:21]
>> Well, that may may never be brought up
[40:25]
unless there's an initiative
[40:28]
to to do that. In other words, that is
[40:31]
completely optional. Unlike the towny
[40:34]
houses, unlike the undersized lots,
[40:37]
those two we have to do. Does that make
[40:40]
sense?
[40:41]
>> Yes. Okay.
[40:41]
>> Thank you.
[40:42]
>> You're welcome.
[40:44]
>> Hi guys, Tom Barrett from OneC. Um, you
[40:49]
put up a slide about the things we have
[40:50]
to do, the things we can do. on the can
[40:54]
do list. Uh clearly uh the state was
[40:58]
willing to
[41:00]
uh
[41:02]
provide us to give us the ability to add
[41:04]
back that 6 months that they removed in
[41:07]
2025. Right.
[41:08]
>> Correct.
[41:08]
>> But on the other things on the list, is
[41:11]
there anything anything on that list
[41:12]
that we cannot do today without this
[41:16]
designation?
[41:18]
Are aren't all those possible today
[41:19]
anyway without the designation? Um,
[41:24]
>> no.
[41:26]
>> All right, why don't you answer?
[41:27]
>> I don't think they're all possible. You
[41:29]
can put the list up, but this this
[41:30]
enables them.
[41:31]
>> You really want me to try this again?
[41:36]
>> Uh, no. Well, they're not. I mean, could
[41:37]
we do tiny houses? No. We'd have to
[41:40]
amend the law.
[41:40]
>> Desate something for artists today. Is
[41:42]
anything preventing us from doing that
[41:44]
today?
[41:44]
>> Yeah, there's no law that allows it.
[41:46]
There's no law that says you can give a
[41:48]
preference to artists. We can't we can't
[41:50]
pass a town law for that.
[41:53]
>> Um I don't know the answer to that
[41:54]
question.
[41:55]
>> We can't do employees either.
[41:57]
>> I I would I would refer that to town
[41:59]
council. The the state the state seems
[42:03]
to think that their
[42:06]
law is something that would be, you
[42:09]
know, to encourage that to be done. And
[42:14]
>> uh I don't know exactly, that's a very
[42:16]
good question, but I don't know how it
[42:17]
would work out if you just tried to do
[42:20]
that now um without their blessing, so
[42:25]
to speak. Yeah, I think this the state
[42:27]
was just trying to make it clear because
[42:29]
I think there's some other federal and
[42:30]
state regulations with the fair housing
[42:33]
laws and so forth that that suggests
[42:36]
that you can't do that, but they're
[42:38]
basically saying, but you can do it for
[42:40]
artists in these seasonal communities
[42:42]
which have tons of artists and uh
[42:46]
writers and so forth and and these towns
[42:50]
that literally are islands sort of like
[42:53]
us that can't get their essential
[42:56]
employees to be on the island like
[42:59]
Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard and the
[43:02]
parts of the Cape and so forth. So, I
[43:05]
think this is saying let's let's go for
[43:07]
it. Let's try to get these things done
[43:10]
and and make them happen. And uh like I
[43:14]
was involved in in the Fort Point
[43:16]
Channel thing down in Boston where we
[43:19]
were dislocating a bunch of u artists
[43:22]
who had lived down in those old mill
[43:24]
buildings for decades. And uh we worked
[43:27]
on a building that the artists
[43:29]
eventually bought and uh took care of
[43:32]
and they have things written into their
[43:34]
deeds for those units for certified
[43:36]
artists in Boston. So similar things
[43:39]
could be done here like that. and um if
[43:43]
it would allow either discounts on rent
[43:45]
or discounts on purchase price, those
[43:48]
kinds of things.
[43:49]
>> All right. Thanks.
[43:50]
>> Yeah.
[43:50]
>> You're welcome.
[43:54]
» Hi, Jane. Me, uh Pigeon Hill Street 63.
[43:58]
Um
[44:00]
I was wondering you had mentioned
[44:01]
earlier that some you know if this
[44:04]
passes that some might may be able to be
[44:06]
deemed affordable
[44:08]
and if so would any of these uh qualify
[44:13]
towards the MBTA
[44:18]
» uh program?
[44:19]
>> Well,
[44:21]
we have two things going on here. That's a good question. We've got the
[44:25]
MBTA zoning.
[44:27]
>> Yeah. which is you know in a certain
[44:30]
area only
[44:32]
>> some can be there's a certain percentage
[44:34]
my understanding that could be elsewhere
[44:36]
in
[44:37]
>> well yeah but we've already done that
[44:38]
that's set already we've already decided
[44:41]
>> we discounted that
[44:43]
>> the town did that at town meeting we
[44:45]
already decided where the uh multifamily
[44:49]
housing for the MBTA zoning was going to
[44:52]
be allowed
[44:53]
>> that's already been decided and it was
[44:56]
pretty close to where the train station
[44:59]
is.
[44:59]
>> Yeah.
[45:00]
>> Either right next to it or else not that
[45:02]
far away. We didn't get up to where
[45:04]
you're living up there.
[45:05]
>> So, that would be outside of the MBTA
[45:08]
zoning.
[45:08]
>> Okay.
[45:09]
>> Area, but under this
[45:14]
uh zoning that's adopted after the
[45:16]
seasonal communities law is adopted,
[45:19]
it could be anywhere in town.
[45:22]
>> Yeah. And would tiny houses, if they're
[45:25]
deemed affordable, go towards the 40B?
[45:30]
>> Completely different.
[45:31]
>> Okay.
[45:32]
>> Very different.
[45:33]
>> Striking out twice.
[45:34]
>> No, no, you didn't strike out. That was
[45:35]
a good question with the MBTA.
[45:37]
>> Yeah.
[45:37]
>> No. Yeah.
[45:39]
>> Okay. Thank you.
[45:40]
>> You're welcome.
[45:45]
» Um, I didn't say my name before. It's
[45:47]
Christine Downing and I live at 19
[45:49]
Parker. I just wanted to stretch the
[45:51]
language a little bit. Uh artists are u
[45:55]
I think should include um I I used to
[45:59]
have a studio in the stove factory in
[46:01]
Charle Town and there was a one group
[46:04]
that had about four letter presses. Um
[46:08]
another that is a a paper mill for
[46:11]
artists. Can you hear me? It's a paper
[46:13]
mill for artists. Um and uh people who
[46:18]
are fine woodwork woodworkers should be
[46:20]
included in this as well as people who
[46:23]
are traditionally defined as you know
[46:25]
painters and so forth. Just about trying
[46:28]
to stretch the language so it includes
[46:29]
more people. Thanks. You're
[46:31]
>> welcome. Yeah, when we if we ever get to
[46:34]
that um we'll defin that'll be certainly
[46:38]
a topic of discussion.
[46:39]
>> Okay. Thank you.
[46:49]
Hi, it's Stephanie Cornell, 8 Summer
[46:51]
Street Court. Uh I just have a question
[46:54]
about the other communities that have
[46:56]
this designation and if you have looked
[46:59]
at examples of how they have integrated
[47:03]
additional can do bylaws into their
[47:07]
designation
[47:09]
as a town and if that's something that
[47:11]
you have that information on and that
[47:14]
>> we could get we we could all learn more
[47:17]
about what other communities have done.
[47:19]
>> You wanted to answer. So on the Cape um
[47:22]
the Cape Cod Commission has been working
[47:24]
with communities on drafting bylaws, but
[47:28]
most of the Cape communities were um
[47:32]
designated in 2024. So that was recent
[47:36]
less than two years ago or around two
[47:38]
years ago. So this is very new for
[47:41]
everybody. Um, so what I'm hoping the
[47:46]
um,
[47:48]
Executive Office of Housing and Livable
[47:50]
Communities is actually working on kind
[47:53]
of templates or um, you know, kind of
[47:57]
model bylaws, but model bylaws will
[48:01]
undoubtedly have to get tweaked per
[48:04]
community a little bit in order to, you
[48:07]
know, have everything work out. Um so um
[48:13]
I am depending on the vote on April
[48:17]
11th. That's when I will start digging
[48:20]
in on on you know looking at bylaws and taking a hard look at what makes
[48:27]
sense in terms of Rockport and the
[48:31]
templates.
[48:33]
>> Thank you.
[48:33]
>> You want to say something?
[48:35]
>> Uh now is basically the same thing. It's
[48:37]
so early. Um some of these towns are
[48:40]
getting towards the end of their drafts
[48:41]
and their votes, but
[48:43]
>> it hasn't been out there in the
[48:45]
community for even a year.
[48:47]
>> So the entire designation is a new thing
[48:49]
from the state over across the whole
[48:51]
>> state. Yeah. And even as you're getting
[48:53]
the idea that I think that even the
[48:55]
state is kind of feeling its way here.
[48:59]
>> I mean they this is all new. It's all
[49:01]
new to them too. So
[49:03]
>> a lot of this is going to evolve as it
[49:07]
goes on. Okay, thank you very much.
[49:09]
>> Some of some of the some of the towns on
[49:11]
the Martha's Vineyard and the
[49:15]
and Nucket are we think our numbers are bad, but they're they're at 60 to
[49:20]
80% of uh uh short-term rentals out of
[49:24]
all of the dwelling units available. So,
[49:26]
it's become a crisis situation for them.
[49:29]
And that's what sort of started this
[49:30]
whole thing.
[49:35]
» Uh okay. Um, we certainly welcome any
[49:39]
more questions. No, there's no such
[49:42]
thing as a stupid question, so don't be
[49:44]
afraid to ask it.
[49:45]
>> If you don't Oh, guy gets up. Okay.
[49:50]
>> Well, and and people should they can
[49:53]
contact me at town.
[49:54]
>> Yeah. Yeah.
[49:55]
>> They can send me an email.
[49:56]
>> Sure. Absolutely. You know, Betsy was
[49:57]
just saying
[49:59]
she may regret this, but she's saying
[50:01]
send her an email.
[50:02]
>> Yeah. Um, my email is ewear
[50:05]
rockportmma.gov.
[50:07]
And if you come up with a question or
[50:10]
you read an article and you say, "Well,
[50:12]
that doesn't make sense." Give me an
[50:14]
email and I'll try to get back to you
[50:17]
with a good answer, an accurate answer.
[50:20]
E E W A R E like hardware.
[50:24]
>> It's beware without the B.
[50:27]
>> Um,
[50:32]
said you know
[50:35]
>> Hi uh Mike Whitten one Cleave Street
[50:37]
Rock Bullet. Um I was just wondering
[50:39]
about veterans if anybody uh considered
[50:43]
uh have a veteran preference also.
[50:46]
>> Uh that's a good idea. Um
[50:50]
I haven't gotten into the weeds on these
[50:52]
preferences yet to see whether
[50:55]
veterans are included, but it's a good
[50:57]
idea.
[50:58]
>> Okay. Thought I'd throw that open.
[51:00]
>> Thank you.
[51:08]
Any other questions or comments?
[51:15]
Going once, going twice,
[51:18]
>> three times.
[51:20]
So,
[51:22]
unless there's anything else,
[51:25]
we're I think we're ajourned. Thank you
[51:27]
all so much for showing up and bearing
[51:29]
with us. Much appreciated.
[51:33]
>> Can we post these slides on the town
[51:35]
website?
[51:37]
>> We could sure. Yeah. Could put them on
[51:39]
the town website. And I did arrange for
[51:42]
this to be um recorded
[51:46]
uh this meeting videotaped. So let we'll
[51:49]
see what how that shakes out. Uh so it
[51:53]
could be that it can you could actually
[51:54]
watch it if you want to see it again.
[51:59]
Yeah,
[52:01]
>> thank you very much. That was very
[52:02]
informative.
[52:03]
>> Thank you.