[3:23] regular meeting of the planning

[3:25] commission for uh November 3rd, 2025. 5

[3:29] is called to order at 6:00 p.m.

[3:33] Could we have the roll call, please?

[3:36] >> Member Peterson

[3:38] >> here.

[3:38] >> Member Sparks Gillis absent. Member

[3:40] Ziggler

[3:41] >> here.

[3:42] >> Vice Chair Adler absent. Chair Williams

[3:44] >> here.

[3:45] >> Thank you.

[3:48] >> Bill, would you lead us in the pledge,

[3:49] please?

[3:50] >> Be happy to.

[3:54] » Ready? Pledge. I pledge allegiance to

[3:57] the flag of the United States of America

[4:00] and to the republic for which it stands.

[4:03] One nation under God, indivisible, with

[4:06] liberty and justice for all.

[4:14] » Okay. Next up, approve the order of the

[4:18] agenda. Does anybody want to change the

[4:20] order of the agenda?

[4:22] >> Move approval.

[4:24] Second.

[4:26] >> Moved and seconded. All in favor?

[4:28] >> I passes 3 0.

[4:32] Public comment.

[4:35] It doesn't look like we have anybody

[4:38] here for public comment or online.

[4:43] So, we'll move directly to the consent

[4:46] items.

[4:48] Does anybody want to pull the consent

[4:51] items or have any questions about them

[4:53] before we?

[4:57] » None here.

[4:59] >> I'll move approval of the consent items.

[5:02] >> Second.

[5:04] >> Uh moved and seconded. All in favor?

[5:07] >> I

[5:09] uh

[5:11] and I meant just one question about the

[5:16] uh these events. the this chart. There's

[5:20] a a number of things on here that are

[5:23] expiring this year. Uh some have one's

[5:28] has already expired and one is going to

[5:31] expire in a couple of days. What what is

[5:35] going to happen with those items?

[5:39] >> Are these the improved entitlements or

[5:41] are these projects that are under

[5:42] construction? Uh

[5:45] the uh it's on the first page. Page

[5:48] eight

[5:50] is uh the uh Schaefer Family Trust. It

[5:54] says the expired uh October 30th.

[5:59] >> Oh, 4:30. Oh, that was actually final.

[6:01] So, hence why it says building permit

[6:02] final.

[6:04] >> Okay. [laughter]

[6:05] >> Yeah. So, it's all done. And that's

[6:07] actually the new Thai restaurant that

[6:08] opened up.

[6:09] >> Okay. Okay. And then moving down to the

[6:11] approved entitlements, the the first two

[6:14] there.

[6:16] >> So 1420 Mission Drive, they are out of

[6:20] additional extensions. So going to

[6:23] assume that they will not have an

[6:25] approved building permit by the 6th of

[6:27] this month considering that they haven't

[6:29] even submitted for permit. So that will

[6:31] also die.

[6:33] >> Okay.

[6:34] >> So they will start back at the drawing

[6:35] board.

[6:38] And as for the condo map, um, that one's

[6:42] a that one's an interesting one because

[6:43] that one

[6:45] we have, I believe this one is I don't

[6:48] recall if this was the 2-year extension,

[6:51] which I think it's the two-year

[6:53] extension, but this has a three-year

[6:55] um development uh plan that was

[6:58] approved. So, the map will die on the

[7:02] 25th on on December 4th, but the

[7:05] applicant is looking to redo everything.

[7:08] So, um,

[7:11] >> we may see something on that.

[7:12] >> We'll see something completely different

[7:14] from what's been approved. So, that one

[7:15] probably will die quietly as well. So,

[7:18] >> okay.

[7:20] Thank you.

[7:22] Um, exparte communications have anything

[7:26] to report?

[7:27] >> Nope.

[7:28] >> None here.

[7:29] >> Uh, no. Item five, item six, discussion

[7:33] items.

[7:37] discussion and direction for title 11

[7:40] chapter 13 the signed ordinance.

[7:44] Uh

[7:46] before we start just a comment Raphael I

[7:48] want to uh

[7:50] thank you and staff for the work you did

[7:53] on this.

[7:54] Uh I know it's a lot of work. Uh Aaron

[7:58] and I have gone through this two or

[8:00] three times where we've had to do the

[8:04] work that uh staff has done this time

[8:06] and we never got any support. So I'm

[8:08] really happy to see this finally

[8:11] something actually happening.

[8:14] >> Well, thank you. Yeah, I mean you guys

[8:16] started the work back in uh I want to

[8:17] say 201819 give or take. So before that

[8:21] [laughter]

[8:23] » well before you this evening is actually

[8:25] it's not the finished product. It's our

[8:27] draft sign ordinance uh planning

[8:29] commission review. So, just to give

[8:31] everyone who's watching or will watch

[8:33] this uh in the future a little bit of

[8:35] background on where we're at with this

[8:36] thing. So, uh we've been talking about a

[8:39] new sign ordinance since I started here.

[8:41] Um we did hold a joint workshop on March

[8:43] 13, 2025 with the planning commission

[8:45] and the DRC. Um that we got a little bit

[8:48] of direction on. Um and from that

[8:51] direction we ended up starting beginning

[8:52] a series of of feedback from the design

[8:54] review committee beginning in June. Uh

[8:57] held one in August and October. And so

[9:00] at this point we're really preparing the

[9:03] admin draft for city council in January

[9:05] 2026. So what that means is it's still

[9:07] an admin form. This you're not adopting

[9:09] something tonight. Uh but we're just

[9:11] basically asking for your feedback and

[9:13] comments and then we are looking for a a

[9:16] target adoption as of February. So

[9:18] essentially what'll end up happening is

[9:20] uh we'll we'll take this to city

[9:22] council. If we can get it into the end

[9:23] of the year, that'd be great for their

[9:25] feedback. If not, we'll roll out the

[9:27] first January meeting and then we'll

[9:29] target um February for us to actually

[9:33] begin the adoption process. And of

[9:35] course, our city attorney will still

[9:37] need to take a look at this who's on the

[9:38] line uh if you have any questions. So

[9:41] the basis for the amendments are really

[9:42] four-fold. Uh first is to modernize our city sign regulations. if uh we've had these in place since 2012. We

[9:50] attempted in 2018 and 19 to amend these.

[9:55] Um just they've never really gone

[9:56] anywhere. Um we're really trying to

[9:59] ensure legal defensibility and first

[10:00] amendment compliance. That's the biggest

[10:02] key. Um third is we're trying to adapt

[10:05] to new technology and listening to the

[10:07] needs of our businesses. And then the

[10:10] last but not least one is maintaining

[10:12] our Danish village aesthetic. That's

[10:14] really what it comes down to is. So we

[10:16] have these competing sort of things all

[10:19] glancing into one in terms of we have

[10:21] this brand we want to maintain. Uh but

[10:24] our siding ordinance hasn't really kept

[10:25] up with any uh case law and over the

[10:29] last 10 years and then of that we just

[10:33] you know we're trying to balance the

[10:36] what we're hearing from the business

[10:37] community.

[10:39] So, one of the the big items that our

[10:41] siden ordinance really falls short on is

[10:44] this idea of of content neutrality. And

[10:47] so, what the draft ordinance so far is align with the big court case from

[10:52] 2015, which was Reed versus the Town of

[10:54] Gilbert. Um, so we've really removed

[10:56] messagebased distinctions, i.e.

[10:58] political signs, real estate signs,

[11:00] construction signs, all those have sort

[11:02] of been removed out of the ordinance,

[11:04] and instead we're really regulating

[11:06] based on physical attributes, placement,

[11:08] and duration. So, time, place, manner is

[11:10] really what it comes down to. Um, we've

[11:12] removed the idea of colors. We move the

[11:15] idea of logos that and the and fonts,

[11:19] etc., and really just drilling down to

[11:22] time, place, manner, but we want it to

[11:24] look with a certain aesthetic. and

[11:26] that's sort of been the legal standing

[11:28] since about 2015.

[11:30] The other one is just allowing

[11:32] non-commercial messages to substitute on

[11:34] any sign structure. So, we've recently

[11:36] had this uh where a property owner

[11:39] decided to place a non-commercial

[11:41] message sign up. Most certainly can do

[11:43] it. That's within their realm. Um it's

[11:46] just we need needed to make it very

[11:48] clear that it's it can substitute for an

[11:50] allowed sign. So again, just really

[11:52] trying to punch up that language to make

[11:54] sure we're consistent with federal case

[11:56] law.

[11:58] The next sort of set that we were

[12:00] looking at is modernizing our sign code.

[12:03] Uh so this includes streamlining

[12:05] language and much more clear intent. So

[12:08] um our code was in is ambiguous that it

[12:12] has language that it prefers or

[12:15] recommends or et we sort of eliminated

[12:18] that. We've also simplified the

[12:20] permitting process and we've so we're

[12:22] introducing administrative sign permits

[12:24] and so that's sort of been this in in

[12:27] the 2018 2019 effort city staff um had attempted to go ahead and get sign

[12:36] uh permits all administrative which for

[12:38] most municipalities actually is what

[12:41] they do. It's the kind of the standard.

[12:42] Signs are are typically again time place

[12:44] manner. There's not much to it. Uh of

[12:46] course with solving we're a little bit

[12:48] different. uh we definitely want to

[12:50] maintain our aesthetic and our look. So,

[12:52] we kind of also had the idea of of

[12:55] streamlining it that way, but we've

[12:57] heard back from this planning commission

[12:59] and the DRC. And so, we're going to sort

[13:01] of split the difference a little bit.

[13:03] So, what we've written in is some

[13:05] signage will be done administratively.

[13:07] So, many temp signs, uh A-frame signs

[13:10] that we will allow in um those will be

[13:12] done administratively or over the

[13:13] counter. So, they don't need to go to

[13:14] DRC. The big one that it actually will

[13:17] change out is suspended signs. So those

[13:20] are the ones that you mainly see along

[13:21] your sidewalks. Those are your

[13:22] pedestrian oriented signs that hang from

[13:24] the building. If you're using the same

[13:26] hardware and you're using everything and

[13:28] you're only changing out the sign and it

[13:30] meets all the intent of the code, you

[13:32] can get it over the counter. It's as

[13:34] simple simplistic as that. Um the DRC

[13:39] did wanted a caveat stating that if they

[13:42] uh applicant came back with a wall sign

[13:45] in six months or a time frame

[13:47] essentially, we've put down 6 months. So

[13:49] we'll make it pretty clear that hey, if

[13:50] you're going to do a wall sign that we

[13:52] want to see it all as one package, but

[13:53] if you're really just aiming to get

[13:56] something up and and get it going and

[13:57] you're not doing much and you're just

[13:59] doing that, let let's do that over the

[14:01] counter. So sort of a test run is

[14:03] probably the best way of taking a look

[14:04] at it. Um if everything works out pretty

[14:07] well then uh maybe it might be something

[14:10] in a future goal to amend further signs

[14:13] uh to go into by right administrative

[14:16] permit only. Um but for now we got to

[14:19] run a test balloon and that's the test

[14:20] balloon we're going to run. The other uh

[14:23] is the objective design measurement

[14:25] standard. So again, getting rid of our

[14:28] current language, um, amending our

[14:30] current language that discussed colors,

[14:32] that discussed fonts, that discussed

[14:34] logos, and inability to put on a

[14:37] website, etc. That's content based,

[14:40] that's message based. We're not supposed

[14:41] to be looking at it. So instead, we're

[14:43] looking really at objective standards

[14:45] instead. And so what that means is what type of material is being

[14:48] utilized for the sign? How tall is it?

[14:51] How big is it? Where is it located?

[14:53] those type of things that are much more

[14:56] definitive and objective that's falls in

[14:58] line with uh federal case law. And then

[15:01] the other one is is integrating with our

[15:03] updated design handbook. So we have a

[15:05] set of I where that's where we can say

[15:08] hey if you're looking for this type of

[15:10] design aesthetic this is probably much

[15:12] more pleasing. Uh but again it's more

[15:15] it's essentially uh not necessarily a

[15:18] recommendation but just hey this is what

[15:20] we tend to prefer more so than anything

[15:22] else and sort of integrating those two

[15:24] together.

[15:25] So some of the proposed new signage uh

[15:28] that's in our ordinance is the

[15:29] regulation of murals. This is something

[15:31] where uh city staff did spar with the

[15:34] DRC um and by city staff meaning myself

[15:38] and the extension of our city attorney

[15:40] um our city attorney's office. Um, so

[15:43] currently our ordinance actually doesn't

[15:45] regulate murals. It's a blank. Um,

[15:48] murals are are great is that they add

[15:51] some vibrancy, especially to blank

[15:53] walls. Uh, but there are pitfalls to

[15:55] those, particularly when it comes to

[15:56] what's being painted and what the

[15:58] message is. Um, best practices is sort

[16:01] of stay out of that realm and just say,

[16:02] "Hey, look, as long as you've met these

[16:04] criterias, we are okay with it." Um, so,

[16:09] uh, while we overheard the DRC and we

[16:12] took in their, um, we did modify some of

[16:14] the language, uh, based on their

[16:16] suggestions, we are still going to be

[16:18] recommending to council that this is

[16:20] done at an administrative level as long

[16:22] as you've met the criteria for it. And

[16:25] again, art is extremely subjective. Uh,

[16:28] it's the eye of the beholder. uh what

[16:30] one um sort of uh beer cup looking thing

[16:35] that sits in the median is a beer cup

[16:37] looking thing versus a trophy. It's a

[16:40] whole different story. Uh what is a

[16:42] stein versus a trophy versus what is

[16:44] art? It's all subjective. So again,

[16:46] rather just keep the metrics in there in

[16:48] terms of up upkeep of maintenance. Where

[16:52] is it located at? Is it visible? How big

[16:55] is it? How long are you going to install

[16:57] it, etc.

[16:59] um allowance for A-frame signs. That's

[17:00] something we heard from our workshop. Um

[17:03] so in this instance, we are going to

[17:05] allow A-frame signs. Um they will not be

[17:07] allowed in the rightway. Uh they will

[17:09] require a sign permit that will require

[17:11] to be reviewed. Um there is something uh

[17:14] that we're proposing is an actual change

[17:16] out of the sign face every 30 days

[17:18] because that's the intention of the

[17:20] A-frame sign. It's really to draw a

[17:22] customer in whether you have a sale,

[17:23] whether special, the day, etc. Again,

[17:25] we're not looking at regulating the

[17:27] message um or the content. We're just

[17:29] simply saying, "Hey, if you can change

[17:30] out that face every 30 days, that's

[17:32] great." And again, that sort of prevents

[17:34] this idea of purchasing an A-frame sign

[17:37] and just having a static message all day

[17:38] long. And really, the intention of the

[17:40] A-frame sign is to advertise something

[17:43] different, whether again weekly special,

[17:46] nightly special, a sale, a new item, and

[17:50] just really and leaving that up to our

[17:52] business owners. But again asking for a a change in the face every 30 days as

[17:57] part of the issuance of the permit and

[17:59] again time place manner regulations. So

[18:01] the sign needs to come in at the end of

[18:03] the business day. It just can't

[18:04] permanently stay out. Can't be lit.

[18:06] Can't have balloons on it. Um and it

[18:09] can't be located on right away. It needs

[18:11] to be located within x amount of feet

[18:13] from the door. It needs to keep a ADA

[18:15] path cleared. So, there's regulations

[18:17] that are time, place, manner, uh, to try

[18:19] to streamline that, but allow for our

[18:21] businesses to utilize the A-frame signs,

[18:24] wayfinding, and directional signage for

[18:26] pedestrians. This is actually new. Um,

[18:29] currently we kind of have that. We kind

[18:31] of don't. Uh, we I think at best what

[18:33] you're you're seeing is the directional

[18:35] signage that's been in planters. Um,

[18:38] which again is great. Uh, has kind of

[18:41] worked. Um, but planters aren't

[18:43] technically permanent. there's no

[18:45] foundation to it. Some of them have bolt

[18:47] they think that the way around it is

[18:49] they said well if the planter is

[18:51] permanent and boltered in we we'll call

[18:52] it good but then that becomes a sticky

[18:55] wicket. So at this point we're we've

[18:57] introduced these this type of signage

[19:00] again with objective standards that it

[19:02] is a permanent sign structure. It can't

[19:04] be in a planner. It has to meet the

[19:06] objective criteria and again it equals

[19:09] the playing field for everybody. um

[19:12] umbrella awning and freestanding signs

[19:14] are clarified. Um and so those that's uh

[19:17] some of our umbrella sign uh language

[19:20] was not very clear. Um our freestanding

[19:22] signage is now clarified. And then uh

[19:25] digital limited signs limited and

[19:26] standardized. So again, this is part of

[19:28] that message of eliminating content

[19:29] base. One of the biggest ones is have

[19:31] neon signs. Uh neon signs is strictly

[19:34] prohibited except for a hotel use.

[19:35] That's content. Sorry, can't have that.

[19:38] So we've heard loud and clear to just

[19:39] eliminate straight up.

[19:42] um revised standards. So again,

[19:44] illustrating measurement and standards.

[19:46] You see that in your staff report and

[19:47] we'll continue to um try to include as

[19:50] many images to help city staff and

[19:54] business owners uh determine how to do

[19:56] that. Um objective limits for area,

[19:58] height, and placement. One of the bigger

[20:00] issues in and allowances what we've done

[20:02] is we've actually increased the amount

[20:03] of signage that you can do um in terms

[20:06] of the letter height. Um, and we've sort

[20:09] of given you this box to say, "Hey, if

[20:11] this is based on your linear footage.

[20:13] So, if you have 50 feet of frontage, 50

[20:17] ft is your max, you go figure it out.

[20:19] We're not going to tell you how to

[20:21] figure it out, but you as the business

[20:23] owner need to go figure out. So, if you

[20:24] want to put all your eggs in one basket

[20:27] in a sign, be our guest. That's

[20:28] perfectly fine by us. Um, if you want to

[20:31] split the difference, which most people

[20:32] do, they'll split it between a suspended

[20:34] sign, a regular wall sign, or a sign on

[20:37] a on an awning, perfect. That's

[20:39] fantastic. But you got to figure this

[20:41] out. We'll give you the box to play

[20:42] with. And that's a big fundamental

[20:45] difference versus what our current

[20:46] ordinance is. It accepts a window sign

[20:49] and accepts a umbrella sign and it

[20:52] accepts a suspended sign. So you start

[20:54] having all these sign exceptions and

[20:56] that's where you really do get the sign

[20:58] clutter versus just stating you got 50

[21:01] square feet to work with. Figure it out.

[21:04] You as the business owner and if it

[21:05] doesn't work, cool. Then you do

[21:08] something new. But you got to figure it

[21:09] out all within your 50 square ft.

[21:13] Whether it's uh a new whether it's a

[21:16] display sign that's in the front coupled

[21:18] with a new awning sign, etc. Again, it's

[21:21] really putting the the power back in the

[21:23] business owner's hands. We're actually

[21:25] proposing illumination standards [gasps]

[21:28] for a town that really uh really really

[21:31] wants dark skies. It was kind of

[21:32] shocking to not have an illumination

[21:34] standard. We got that in. So, that's

[21:36] what we're proposing out. And then

[21:37] again, strengthening our maintenance and

[21:39] repair requirements. Um the couple

[21:42] sections sort of left it up to uh the

[21:45] director but gave no time frame. um

[21:48] others were out of whack with existing

[21:50] code sections. So really we streamlined

[21:52] it. We made it consistent with our

[21:54] chapter one that already deals with it

[21:56] and again just really trying to clean it

[21:58] up.

[22:00] Um and then as mentioned before looking

[22:02] at the streamline review, the

[22:03] administrative permits um really looking

[22:05] at the DRC um to handle more of the

[22:08] complex applications. So, um, again,

[22:11] those wall signs or sign programs go to

[22:13] them. And then making a very clear

[22:17] appeal section and exception procedures.

[22:20] So, right now, that's not very clear of

[22:22] where that goes. Um, our findings have

[22:24] been cleaned up. And again, we're

[22:26] looking for if we're loosening up the

[22:28] sign ordinance, you better have a very

[22:30] good reason why you're looking for an

[22:32] exception. And then again, consolidating

[22:34] our enforcement and compliance under our

[22:36] city code. So that's basically the

[22:39] overview of what is being proposed in

[22:41] the draft signed ordinance. Your tasks

[22:43] this evening are just to provide

[22:45] comments and feedback. Uh provide any

[22:48] directions or modifications and ask

[22:50] questions of say you staff because again

[22:52] this isn't um the last time we'll be

[22:54] checking in with the planning

[22:55] commission. Um but we are almost there

[22:58] to sort of finish up and wrap up uh the

[23:00] sign ordinance which has been many years

[23:02] in the making. And with that I'll turn

[23:03] it over to commission for any questions.

[23:08] So, any immediate questions before we go

[23:10] to public comment?

[23:12] >> I I do. Raphael, could you um do we have

[23:15] any regulation on murals? And if so,

[23:17] could you talk about that a little bit

[23:20] >> in the current ordinance or in the

[23:21] proposed ordinance?

[23:22] >> Well, you indicated that you did not

[23:24] want to restrict, but I don't know what

[23:25] you currently have. So, I guess

[23:27] >> we don't have anything in the current

[23:28] ordinance, which is why we're proposing

[23:30] it now.

[23:31] >> And what are you proposing? So, in the

[23:34] current section, it's it's coming it's

[23:37] called out in the proposed um side

[23:40] ordinance. It it's called out as its own

[23:43] sort of specialty signage.

[23:46] >> And so

[23:48] here it sort of defines what a mural is,

[23:51] what's the purpose, exempt from sign

[23:53] consideration.

[23:54] >> Page 29.

[23:55] >> Yeah, page 29 and 30.

[23:57] >> Thank you. And then it really the review

[23:59] authority falls onto the director and

[24:01] then as long as the standards are and the first standard is a

[24:04] non-commercial content. A mural is

[24:07] non-commercial. It doesn't contain any

[24:08] logo, trademark, trade names or other

[24:11] commercial identifiers. And if the

[24:13] primary purpose is aesthetic, cultural

[24:14] or expressive rather than advertise. Uh

[24:18] so case in point, you get a nice little

[24:19] mural of of a Coke bottle. It's a Coke

[24:22] bottle. So it's it's pretty there. uh

[24:25] locations just located on the exterior

[24:27] wall or permanent surface visible from

[24:29] the public rideway. Uh just making sure

[24:31] that any lighting shall be directed to

[24:33] prevent any glare on the adjacent

[24:34] properties. Um safety is to not cover

[24:37] windows or doors and then ensuring a

[24:40] maintenance and then putting a limit on

[24:42] the number of murals which is one per building or property whichever is

[24:45] less.

[24:46] >> So um I I understand the free speech

[24:50] component of things. Um, what if

[24:53] something were proposed that was

[24:55] patently offensive? Um,

[24:58] swastikas and things of that nature.

[25:01] How, if you have no standard, how would

[25:03] you regulate that? I

[25:04] >> I will turn that question over to our

[25:06] city attorney, Taylor, who is on

[25:08] >> course. So, um, patently offensive

[25:10] speech, there's a different standard for

[25:12] it, and hate speech that's specifically

[25:14] defined and treated differently under

[25:16] the First Amendment. So if something did

[25:18] come up that was proposed that fell into

[25:21] those categories, the city would be able

[25:23] to to regulate that and essentially say

[25:25] no.

[25:26] >> Thank you.

[25:28] Yeah, it would it would still require a

[25:30] permit. So it would still require a

[25:32] submitt required for us to review to

[25:34] make sure it meets the criteria. Um

[25:36] we're we're just not taking it and

[25:39] bubbling it up to um the powers that be.

[25:43] Unless, of course, we most certainly

[25:45] have to. And in in an application like

[25:47] that, most certainly we could reference

[25:50] out to the DRC first and have them take

[25:52] a crack in a public hearing. Um, that's

[25:54] always within the director's ability to

[25:56] do that. Uh, but again, it it's just

[25:59] administratively we want to continue to

[26:00] just keep that at a staff level.

[26:02] >> I appreciate the clarification.

[26:07] I will have a question um on a specific

[26:11] item. when you get to 1113

[26:16] 7 AE

[26:18] um

[26:19] >> why don't we go to public comment okay

[26:21] >> before we get into the individual if

[26:24] that's okay

[26:26] >> sure

[26:28] >> okay well well we'll take it to public

[26:30] comment

[26:32] uh there's nobody here there's nobody

[26:35] online

[26:37] so we'll close public comment and bring

[26:40] it back to the commissioner

[26:43] Bill, I interrupted you.

[26:45] >> No worries. That's appropriate. Um, so

[26:49] what I found was in that section, let me

[26:52] get to it.

[26:52] >> Yeah. What was that section?

[26:53] >> It was 11-13-7

[26:56] capital A, little E. And um,

[27:01] >> page

[27:03] around page 20 or so.

[27:05] >> 22.

[27:05] Thank you.

[27:08] >> Get there to

[27:12] Um, I just had a question about time of

[27:15] display. You have none listed. So that

[27:17] indicate that you're not allowed to do

[27:19] that.

[27:20] >> Um, as in there's we don't have a

[27:22] duration of time of display as in 180

[27:25] days, 6 months. Um, and we can most

[27:28] certainly change the language.

[27:29] >> So no restriction.

[27:30] >> Correct. So,

[27:32] >> um yeah,

[27:34] >> we just don't want to and the r the

[27:36] rationale is we do not want to uh

[27:39] specifically limit um non-commercial

[27:42] signs on residential properties whether

[27:44] it's

[27:45] you know elections are completely

[27:47] different that they got their own sort

[27:48] of guidelines and everything but but

[27:50] more so if you want to support the

[27:52] troops or you want to voice your opinion

[27:56] on whatever administration's in place or

[27:59] whatever or product dour or or keep your

[28:03] goats in your yard. I we just don't want

[28:05] to we don't want to limit that.

[28:10] » Okay. I have just

[28:13] I I have a lot of things to to mention.

[28:17] None of them major I hope. Uh but just

[28:20] one general question.

[28:23] Uh in the past, our biggest problem with

[28:27] the signed ordinance, aside from people

[28:29] complaining about it, is a lack of

[28:34] enforcement.

[28:36] Are there any plans of foot to actually

[28:39] enforce these regulations?

[28:42] >> Yeah, that's the intention of this. When

[28:44] somebody gets a sign approved,

[28:48] is there's somebody that's going to go

[28:50] out and look at the sign when it's up

[28:52] and say, "Yes, that's that's what was

[28:55] approved or no, it's not." Because a lot

[28:58] of times people make changes in the

[29:00] process of putting up their signs.

[29:03] >> Yeah. So I mean that so with the sign

[29:06] permit obviously um there there is

[29:09] supposed to be followup and and and for

[29:11] the most part most people when they put

[29:12] permanent signage it is what it is. Um

[29:15] as far as the temporary signs that's a

[29:17] different story. That's end of story is

[29:20] yes there will be enforcing to it. Um

[29:23] we'll be since code enforcement and

[29:25] compliance is in our community

[29:27] development department. I'll be working

[29:28] very closely with our code compliance

[29:30] officer to make sure our A-frame signs

[29:32] and temporary banner signs are are done

[29:35] at the time frame to which they're

[29:36] approved and taken down at the time

[29:38] frame in which they're supposed to be

[29:39] taken down. So there there very much is

[29:42] enforcement that goes with it as there

[29:44] is today and very much follows our our

[29:47] policies for um enforcing our ordinance.

[29:57] Well, I I've got a few.

[30:00] >> Well, what why don't we just go through

[30:02] page by page

[30:04] >> and starting on page 16.

[30:06] >> Can we start on 15?

[30:09] >> 15. Okay.

[30:11] >> 15. Um B. It's just a I think it's a

[30:14] typo. B is I think it says consistent

[30:17] with section 11134. I think it's 11133

[30:21] which is the exempt signs I think.

[30:25] Yes, it could be it. We'll check back

[30:27] again because it's admin draft. Some of

[30:29] the sections would get moved around. So,

[30:30] we've got to make sure that's correct.

[30:32] >> That's all I had on on 15. Thank you.

[30:37] >> Okay. Page 16, exempt signs.

[30:41] >> Um I I have some questions. Um,

[30:51] so we we've got if we go to uh 11133

[30:57] and we go down to two and temporary

[31:01] signage related to Ulfest and Danish

[31:03] days or any other official city holiday.

[31:07] Um, I assume that's

[31:10] a legal term. Is it is something where

[31:12] they say we declare that Fourth of July

[31:15] is an official city holiday or event and

[31:17] they do that every year. Do people come

[31:20] up and say here's an official event.

[31:22] It's going to be I don't know car show

[31:24] in the park. I mean it is it limited or

[31:28] is it up to city council to just come up

[31:30] with these official city holidays? It

[31:33] might be offensive that Ulifest is

[31:35] listed in Danish days, but other um

[31:38] other holidays are not for and and so

[31:41] I'm just curious, do we put anything in

[31:43] there or do we just say any official

[31:45] holiday as declared by city and let it

[31:47] go?

[31:48] >> So we we specifically did Yulfest simply

[31:52] because that's something that in Danish

[31:53] days is those two big sort of festivals,

[31:55] Fourth of July being the other one. Um

[31:57] really the aim is to just have the

[32:00] ability for parks and wreck who issues

[32:02] out uh temporary event permits to allow

[32:04] for sort of those banner signs to be

[32:06] there as a in conjunction with that. Um

[32:08] we most certainly can clean it up. Um

[32:11] but really the reality is we we want to

[32:14] be make sure sort of cover our bases to

[32:16] say that the signed ordinance doesn't

[32:18] affect any of those city sponsored

[32:20] events and most certainly we can clean the language up.

[32:23] >> Okay. it. You could certainly say any

[32:25] temporary signage related to any

[32:27] official city holiday event or events

[32:30] such as Ulfest, Danish Days, etc. And

[32:33] then you'd cover official events.

[32:36] >> And that's a that's actually a fantastic

[32:39] >> clarify. We do have a definition of

[32:41] holiday in the municipal code. It kind

[32:43] of broadly refers to any federal or

[32:45] state holidays. Um, and then I believe

[32:47] the city could also uh establish a city

[32:50] holiday by ordinance as well. Um, so

[32:52] that that's where we're getting the

[32:53] definition of holiday there.

[32:56] >> But that's actually a very excellent

[32:58] suggestion of of cleaning that up. And

[33:00] again, we really just don't want to

[33:02] hamstring ourselves for especially, you

[33:04] know, special events that that

[33:06] applicants go through and and that's

[33:08] been sort of that question of, well,

[33:10] what can they do signwise? I'm like,

[33:11] well, um, [laughter]

[33:14] >> got to get it declared special event, I

[33:16] guess,

[33:16] >> right? where

[33:17] >> city holiday

[33:18] >> whereas it if if the if the signage is

[33:20] turned in with the special event they've

[33:23] already cleared the barrier they're not

[33:24] going to do anything and we don't need

[33:25] to take a look at it so that we'd much

[33:27] rather prefer that than the ladder

[33:29] >> can I ask on number three underneath

[33:31] that um

[33:35] it's talking about again these are

[33:37] exempt and it's the non-eliminated signs

[33:40] but not limited to credit card

[33:42] acceptance I get that business hours

[33:44] open and closed I get it or menus use.

[33:47] I didn't see a menu um portion section

[33:52] in here.

[33:53] >> Yeah, because that's content based. We

[33:54] don't want to do that anymore.

[33:56] >> That's why it says display instead.

[33:58] >> Should we be taking menus out of this?

[34:00] >> Um it's it's we could in theory. Um

[34:04] again,

[34:05] >> it says it's an aggra of only two square

[34:06] feet. That's aggra. That's all of it.

[34:08] So, you're going to get a whole lot in

[34:10] two square feet. That's sort of the

[34:12] point because it is there is the display

[34:14] sign that allows for that sort of

[34:17] additional larger display and that's

[34:19] already caked into the ordinance. So

[34:22] again the intention and we could remove

[34:24] menu as an example which is fine by me

[34:28] because again the real reality comes

[34:29] back to is we want to exempt out

[34:32] aggregate of two square feet your hours

[34:34] of operations your your credit card

[34:36] acceptance do you accept Bitcoin be my

[34:38] guest I don't care

[34:40] our current

[34:41] >> menu been such a a hot button you know

[34:44] how many do you have what do you do it I

[34:46] my suggestion would just take menus out

[34:48] because it's more subjective again my

[34:50] menu is different than yours than the

[34:51] credit card in the open and close

[34:52] >> would be happy to take it out. So,

[34:54] >> okay.

[34:57] Um,

[35:00] number four, the special event. Now,

[35:02] we're into decorations, not signs, but

[35:04] we're talking about decorations here,

[35:05] obviously, non-commercial messages.

[35:08] They can go up 30 days before an event

[35:12] and and must be down 72 hours after an

[35:15] event. Um

[35:19] this is just confusing but a bit ULFest

[35:21] is that the whole month. So if they

[35:23] declared that that's the 1st of December

[35:25] through the whatever it is um does that

[35:27] mean that they need to when they declare

[35:30] those events they need to have a start

[35:31] and a finish date knowing that we want

[35:34] it after the Christmas tree burn? We

[35:36] don't want it on the 27th of December if

[35:40] that's what we're looking for. 30 days

[35:42] prior to an event seems a lot. Going

[35:46] back to Ula Fest as an example, that

[35:48] means November one you could start

[35:50] putting up Christmas tree decorations

[35:52] and stuff. Um I I get it when it's maybe

[35:56] a Danish days, a one-day event. Even

[35:58] that is a long way out to go 30 days

[36:00] prior to a fiesta or a Danish days. I I

[36:04] so that that's a long period of time and

[36:07] kind of a short time to take it down

[36:09] afterward. in some of the others. I

[36:11] think we've got like a a seven day after

[36:14] an event on some things and I don't know

[36:16] that that's just my thought and I always

[36:19] use look for the extremes that we would

[36:22] start getting Christmas decorations up

[36:24] today if if you starts on December 3rd

[36:27] at the parade which I think that's kind

[36:29] of what they declare it to be. It's not

[36:31] the not just the holiday.

[36:34] So I think we ought to just look at that

[36:36] think it through. So we we can um the

[36:38] reality is this is really it's a

[36:40] twofold. One is trying to cover Yilifest

[36:43] Halloween and other you know Fourth of

[36:45] July etc. But also we we've had requests

[36:47] in the past for businesses that

[36:49] celebrate you know one year

[36:51] anniversaries and can they put up

[36:52] balloons etc. So most certainly we can

[36:55] quantify it with the time difference. So

[36:57] if you're doing a one day one to three

[36:59] day event 72 hours makes sense. Um and

[37:02] then for longer events we can extend out

[37:05] the time to uh remove the decorations.

[37:08] >> Yeah.

[37:08] >> So be happy to include sort of that time

[37:11] frame.

[37:11] >> Tighten that up just just a bit was was

[37:14] my thought.

[37:14] >> I like that approach too.

[37:17] >> Yeah. But there's also the question of

[37:19] when you can start putting up the

[37:21] decorations. I understand

[37:24] some flexibility on the back end. But

[37:27] you know can they according to this they

[37:30] can start 30 days before the

[37:32] >> sale

[37:33] >> the special event.

[37:35] >> Yeah.

[37:36] >> Right. And

[37:36] >> and then they have to take it down 72

[37:39] hours afterwards.

[37:41] >> Correct. And and so part of it is maybe

[37:43] there's the event of a sale and event of

[37:46] something like a popup whatever they're

[37:48] doing in in the park or at Demirus

[37:51] Square or somewhere. And the other is

[37:52] these official city holiday festivals

[37:55] that you know two classifications.

[37:59] >> Yeah, it sounds like we may just need to

[38:00] cut a se two separate exceptions and

[38:03] that's again not a problem. That's the

[38:05] intention of sort of this study session

[38:07] is to to get that and I know we try to

[38:10] combine it as much as we can into one.

[38:11] But yeah, it's fine. If it makes

[38:13] application much easier, I'm all for

[38:16] that.

[38:17] >> Um on down lower 1113-4

[38:21] But before you get there, I have a

[38:23] question on five.

[38:24] >> Sorry.

[38:25] >> Uh this is uh a fixed to vehicles. It

[38:29] says magnets, vinyl application,

[38:32] other forms of material

[38:34] uh of permanent adhesive. I question the

[38:38] word permanent. Magnets aren't

[38:39] permanent. Vinyl applications can be

[38:42] peeled off. Uh what was the intent there

[38:45] with permanent adhesive? the the the

[38:48] intent is to show that the that the sign

[38:51] is is sort of a fixed in some way, shape

[38:53] or form that doesn't appear to be

[38:55] temporary, which is why such signage

[38:57] such as banner, boards, paper, wood,

[38:59] material, any other sort of temporary

[39:00] sign um is not included. And and here

[39:04] it's not. We don't have many vehicles

[39:07] that do that. In other jurisdictions,

[39:09] we've had vehicles where they parked the

[39:10] car and they put the sign in the window

[39:13] pointing out, you know, and it's a

[39:15] cardboard sign. So again, just trying to

[39:17] differentiate between someone that has a

[39:21] has gone through the process of of

[39:23] either vinyl or putting window

[39:25] lettering, etc. that is really, you

[39:27] know, trying to make it not into a a

[39:31] moving billboard per se, but you know,

[39:33] directing traffic to a particular area.

[39:35] It's just trying, you know, we're just

[39:38] trying to differentiate a a permanent

[39:40] versus something that's temporary and

[39:42] attention getting.

[39:44] >> Would the as any examples would the

[39:47] signs on the trolley be exempt under

[39:50] this?

[39:50] >> Those are already exempt. They're

[39:52] different sections. So, yeah.

[39:53] >> Okay. And what about the signs on the

[39:56] roofs of the Domino's Pizza delivery

[39:59] guys?

[40:00] >> Again, that's that's typically fine.

[40:03] We're trying to walk that fine line to,

[40:06] you know, differentiate between the two.

[40:09] >> Okay. Well, and and I brought that one

[40:11] up in particular because it says that

[40:13] the sign can't project above

[40:17] or from the vehicle profile.

[40:21] So, by that definition, dominoes

[40:24] shouldn't be able to do that.

[40:25] >> Yeah, we again, we can take a look at

[40:27] that and try to make that work. or

[40:30] [clears throat] just walking a fine line

[40:32] and we'll try to sniff that out.

[40:36] >> Okay.

[40:36] >> Such as exceptions being made for

[40:37] delivery vehicles or something,

[40:39] commercial de delivery vehicles.

[40:41] >> Yeah, that's one way of doing it. So,

[40:44] >> um and under four, again, I'm just

[40:47] trying to emphasize the the 30-day and

[40:49] the 72 hours,

[40:52] you can do it three times a year. That's

[40:55] times 30 days. That's I'm beating a dead

[40:58] horse. That's 90 days. That's a quarter

[41:00] of the year. You could have stuff up.

[41:02] So, let's just if we can

[41:04] >> squeeze it down. Thank you.

[41:04] >> We We will We will squeeze that down.

[41:06] >> Thank you. Thank you.

[41:08] >> Okay. You had um on 1113-4

[41:14] number one offsite signage. Um, I

[41:18] really, if we, if we turn to page 36 for

[41:22] definition of off site signage, now I'm

[41:27] not saying the other one was any better.

[41:29] It's probably the same. It's right in

[41:31] the middle of page 36. Offsite signage

[41:34] that is not located on the same legal

[41:35] lot of the business.

[41:37] >> Okay, that that's where it's saying.

[41:40] So that means that if you're in a square

[41:42] and you're on the you can put signs

[41:45] remotely throughout the square if you

[41:48] got permission obviously from yourself

[41:50] or from the landlord. And I was always

[41:52] of the belief even talking to tenants of

[41:56] mine that you cannot put an off-site

[41:58] sign down there. the signs need to be on

[42:02] your frontage, your lineage, your It

[42:05] doesn't matter that it's all on one

[42:07] legal lot or you can have people putting

[42:09] signs around um off of their off of

[42:14] their

[42:15] businesses. So, I don't know if the if

[42:18] there's a better definition or if you

[42:20] guys chatted about that, but offsite

[42:22] didn't to me mean off the property that

[42:24] you have your one of 17 businesses on

[42:27] and you can do it anywhere on there. It

[42:29] had to be in front of your business or

[42:32] over your door.

[42:34] >> I seem to recall from our previous

[42:36] discussion and I think you brought it up

[42:38] Erin about it being proximate to the

[42:40] business and you even talked about some

[42:43] distances I think but primarily it was

[42:45] with I think Arames.

[42:46] >> A frames and that's in here as 5t from

[42:49] your primary door which is great. Yeah.

[42:51] >> But I always thought Jack you've been

[42:52] around it enough too that the signs had

[42:54] to be on your exterior. walls of your

[42:58] property, not your neighbors because

[43:00] they don't care,

[43:01] >> but you're on one legal lot. So,

[43:03] >> so you might be able to cover this on

[43:07] and we haven't gotten there yet under a

[43:09] sign program for uh a square where you

[43:13] have a number of businesses. One area

[43:16] that the developer or the owner could

[43:19] come up with a signed program for

[43:24] uh that business

[43:26] location

[43:28] and get the program approved through the

[43:30] city. And then it would be a

[43:32] collaboration between the owner or the

[43:35] landlord,

[43:37] >> the city, and

[43:38] >> but we still need to define off-site

[43:40] signage because the landlord's going to

[43:42] come in and say, "Well, it doesn't it

[43:43] says off-site signage could be anywhere

[43:45] on my piece of property. I've got 15

[43:47] tenants, and so I'm coming in with this

[43:50] signage all around off my off of the

[43:53] rental spots. There are some very small

[43:56] um shops in town, retail shops, very

[43:59] small, 300 feet, 400 square feet, 200

[44:02] square feet, and they don't maybe have

[44:04] enough walls, so they want to put them

[44:06] down and across. And I don't think

[44:08] that's maybe what what I want to see

[44:11] happen. I'd rather have I'd rather have

[44:13] site signage defined a little bit

[44:15] better.

[44:15] >> Well, 1134 says that it's not allowed.

[44:20] >> Uh

[44:21] >> it's under prohibited signs. Uh

[44:25] >> yeah, off-site signage, but the

[44:27] definition of offsite is the legal lot

[44:29] that you have your rental on.

[44:31] >> Yeah, it sounds like we can

[44:34] >> adjust it to both off-site and off-

[44:36] premise. So that's

[44:37] >> perfect. I think it used to say off

[44:39] premise. You're absolutely correct

[44:41] instead of offsite before.

[44:42] >> We can we can make that adjustment.

[44:44] >> Um under number four on this the digital

[44:47] display LED. I get it all. I understand

[44:50] it.

[44:52] Can we should we say that you can't have

[44:54] those inside or outside or seen from the

[44:57] street because you can get a lot of neon

[44:59] and stuff inside and can we even

[45:01] regulate that if it's back 15 [laughter]

[45:03] 18 in from the window? Maybe we cannot.

[45:07] >> That's a tough one. I mean there's a

[45:08] couple businesses where you can see the

[45:10] LEDs through the window. They see the

[45:12] signage in there and um

[45:14] >> and we never we never say I know we do

[45:16] this thing of 18 inches be after the

[45:19] window. You can do signage and you're

[45:21] not But the neon that you can still

[45:23] seems like it should be maybe a little

[45:27] tighter. But um my thought

[45:30] >> well and that this that starts to really

[45:33] blur that line of where do we sort of

[45:36] draw the line

[45:37] >> of of what we can and cannot see. So,

[45:42] you know, in this instance, I'm, you

[45:44] know, some businesses, it's just easier

[45:47] for them to do the digital display,

[45:49] especially on the menu boards if

[45:50] they're, you know, coffee shops, etc.

[45:52] >> Hadn't even thought about that. That's

[45:54] the hot thing right now.

[45:55] >> Yeah, it's just easier. So, I, you know,

[45:58] I'd rather keep to just regulating what

[46:00] we can see from the right away.

[46:02] >> Um, one thing that we can add in is the

[46:04] amount of lumens. So, that's that's

[46:07] definitely one way to regulate it. And

[46:08] again trying to be in a very succinct

[46:11] objective manner that if we can see the

[46:14] lumens at night or you know that that's

[46:17] going to be the easiest way to do it. So

[46:19] >> okay

[46:21] >> it's all I have on 16

[46:25] >> 17

[46:27] um perhaps number seven at the very top

[46:31] because these are prohibited signs. It

[46:34] starts number seven outdoor decorations

[46:37] maybe comma except as a as allowed under

[46:41] 1113-3

[46:43] which we just went over which is 11 the

[46:46] exempt signs which is for the festivals

[46:48] and boppity bop just because wait a

[46:50] minute you can't do out there I can't I

[46:52] thought we could do it here just you

[46:54] know more info sometimes better

[46:59] um this poll sign number 20 on that page 17. And if we go to a definition of

[47:07] poll signs on page 37,

[47:11] we um we give a definition of a poll

[47:15] sign, but we are saying the poll signs

[47:18] are prohibited. So I I don't know. I I'm

[47:22] just I'm just wondering.

[47:23] >> I want we want the definition there so

[47:25] we can make sure it's prohibited.

[47:26] >> Okay. Okay. That's and and that's fine

[47:28] because we always allowed pole signs in

[47:31] our current. You can have a pole sign.

[47:33] If you have 100 feet, you can go up in

[47:34] the air with one. We're now saying two,

[47:37] which makes it nicer.

[47:41] Okay.

[47:42] >> Yeah. I want to be able to say nah, no

[47:44] pull. So you here's the definition.

[47:47] You've met the definition, so no pull.

[47:49] >> Y.

[47:49] >> So

[47:54] » I don't have anything.

[47:56] >> Well, I have a question.

[47:56] >> Go ahead. I'm sorry.

[47:57] >> On sign programs,

[48:00] uh, I couldn't find a definition of a

[48:03] what a sign program is.

[48:06] >> We may have inadvertently left out the

[48:08] definition. We'll we'll add the

[48:09] definition in. [clears throat]

[48:10] >> Yeah. And uh what would be the and I

[48:16] alluded to this earlier. What would be

[48:18] the process

[48:21] uh for uh individual signs on businesses

[48:27] uh that are included under the sign

[48:30] program.

[48:32] >> So typically a sign program includes a

[48:34] list of conditions that run with the lay

[48:36] of the land. So it's very similar to

[48:37] conditional use permit. So once those

[48:39] get codified um and then they are passed

[48:43] by resolution, we keep the resolution.

[48:45] We actually do have a few sewing

[48:46] programs here in town that are already

[48:48] active um and some of them it's hit and

[48:51] miss because they're not consistent.

[48:52] Some of them say it can be approved at

[48:54] staff level, some say they can't. And so

[48:57] um but the reality comes back to is the

[48:59] whole point of the sign program is it is

[49:01] that there's a program that's laid out

[49:03] it's particularly when you have these

[49:05] smaller shops and the you know trying to

[49:07] direct people to where they need to be

[49:09] or larger shopping centers and the

[49:12] program just basically dictates how the

[49:14] signs are supposed to look where they're

[49:15] supposed to be located and if you meet

[49:17] that criteria city staff should be able

[49:19] to um process a a permit over the

[49:22] counter. And so that that's the

[49:23] intention of the sign program is as

[49:26] tenants come and go um they have a sign

[49:29] program that's approved a new tenant

[49:30] comes in it's like I want to do a new

[49:32] sign. Okay well this has a sign program

[49:33] please see attached and have your sign

[49:36] do everything towards the sign program

[49:37] and we approve it call it a day. Okay.

[49:39] Well, that was uh second going to be the

[49:42] second part of my question that uh in

[49:45] exactly ceremon the situation you uh

[49:49] suggested

[49:51] uh uh new business comes in.

[49:55] Uh would and and you know everything is

[49:59] according to what was in the the sign

[50:03] program that was approved for that.

[50:07] Would that person actually have to come

[50:09] to the city again or can the landlord or

[50:12] owner approve it or do both have to

[50:14] approve it?

[50:15] >> Yeah, again we I mean landlords

[50:16] typically don't really say much unless

[50:18] there's a new placement. Um it's again

[50:20] it's a signed permit. It just would as a

[50:23] condition of the sign permit would

[50:24] simply say if it meets the intent of the

[50:25] sign program, you know, city staff is

[50:27] able to approve the permit through an

[50:28] administrative sign permit. Done. So

[50:30] again,

[50:31] >> it does say sign face,

[50:32] >> right?

[50:33] >> You can you can do that.

[50:34] >> Yeah. And that that's the point of the

[50:36] conditions is is is to have that. Now

[50:38] again a sign program is is different.

[50:40] You want to each that means each site is

[50:43] different. So it's just let's pretend

[50:46] that the Neielson Center one day goes

[50:48] through a massive fateless and they they

[50:49] want a a sign program with a large pylon

[50:52] sign. Well maybe you want to see what it looks like each time a new

[50:57] tenant comes in. So we can condition

[50:58] that the pylon sign specifically when a

[51:00] new tenant comes in it goes to the DRC.

[51:02] You write the condition as such. So that

[51:05] that's that's the beauty of the sign

[51:06] program is it is much more sight

[51:08] specific and and the controls of how we

[51:11] want to see it.

[51:12] >> Yeah. Well, the having the definition

[51:14] would help a lot there.

[51:19] Uh

[51:20] >> I have nothing else on 17.

[51:23] >> Neither do I. I have nothing on 18.

[51:27] >> 18. Um

[51:30] I just a couple

[51:32] uh silly stuff I I suppose. Um

[51:39] re uh let's go to sign permit to a

[51:44] wherever we see review authority.

[51:47] um

[51:49] sign we had to say signage review

[51:51] authority because you do say it in some

[51:53] places and capitalize it because I know

[51:57] what you mean. Um it's so if we just you

[51:59] know this it's it's in your box your

[52:01] table signage review authority and just

[52:03] capitalize them. It's a couple places it

[52:06] is and couple it is not. Same with B.

[52:10] Number one, administrative sign permit

[52:13] capitalized way at the bottom last

[52:15] paragraph.

[52:17] Administrative sign permit is not

[52:18] capitalized. I'm just saying just you'll

[52:21] probably catch that consistent.

[52:23] >> Yeah, but yeah. Yeah, that's that's um

[52:28] >> Yeah,

[52:28] >> appreciate it. Um and then number three

[52:33] at the top of that page sign program I

[52:35] put big question define this and you

[52:37] you've got that and you got that and so

[52:39] we'll get a definition as to how you get

[52:42] a a uh because it's required and so

[52:44] therefore we had a yeah so that was it

[52:48] there.

[52:48] >> I have one other question that I skipped

[52:52] over on the sign program.

[52:56] uh who is responsible for the

[52:59] maintenance of the the signs?

[53:03] >> So, it's typically always the landlord

[53:04] or tenant. So, again, we're we're not

[53:07] responsible for that. We just do the

[53:08] approval.

[53:10] >> But would uh be the would it be the

[53:13] landlord's responsibility to notify a

[53:17] tenant that, hey, your your sign needs

[53:19] to be repainted or freshened up or

[53:22] whatever needs to happen. the latch

[53:25] broke, you need to fix it.

[53:27] >> So, is that something?

[53:30] Some landlords don't do that. The city

[53:31] will come give you a notice and say this

[53:34] is in disrepair and then the landlord

[53:35] will go to the tenant and say get it

[53:37] repaired or vice versa and they'll get

[53:39] it repaired. But these these ticks go

[53:42] against the business owner as we know.

[53:44] I've argued for years and I always lose

[53:46] to the city attorney that we should be

[53:49] finding people and then it should go

[53:50] against the property owner so that

[53:52] there's an enforcement mechanism instead

[53:53] of a business just closing up and going

[53:55] way back to Santa Barbara and leaving

[53:57] $1,000 worth of fines and um not we're

[54:00] trying to collect money. It's just we're trying to enforce. So it's kind of

[54:04] up to correct me if I'm wrong landlord

[54:06] and tenant working it out. it is and I

[54:08] mean if it comes to disrepair then then

[54:10] you we we can find the tenant and that's

[54:13] what we typically have done is we we

[54:14] find the tenant um now we have informed

[54:18] the landlord and some tenants aren't

[54:19] happy about that but you know that's just our way of particularly when

[54:24] we're setting a second and third notice

[54:26] that's when we start slapping on the

[54:27] landlord. Um, but we've really tried to

[54:30] make it at at best practices. Once we

[54:32] send one notice out to a tenant, we

[54:34] actually also CC the property owner that way there's no sort of

[54:38] miscommunication. Well, this is the

[54:39] first time we've heard of it. Well,

[54:40] we've CCD you like six, four copies, so

[54:43] I don't know [laughter]

[54:44] where your mail has been gone. So,

[54:46] >> so what happens and the business gets a

[54:50] notice from the city

[54:52] and

[54:54] you know they you don't know it but

[54:56] they've already decided to close the

[54:58] business and

[55:00] the next day they're gone and their old

[55:03] sign is hanging there. Is it then become

[55:07] does it become the responsibility of the

[55:09] landlord to do that? Yeah, it ultimately

[55:11] eventually does fall into the the

[55:13] landlord, which is why we have a signed

[55:15] maintenance section. So, basically sort

[55:17] of outlines, you know, what that upkeep

[55:19] is. And then, you know, in that same

[55:23] subsection that there's a notice to

[55:25] repair, you know, the director or my

[55:26] designate, you know,

[55:27] >> I was just thinking in particular with

[55:30] the sign program,

[55:33] uh, who's who's responsible for what?

[55:37] >> Again, each reading this, it wasn't

[55:38] clear to me. Each sign program you got

[55:40] to treat it as its own entitlement. So

[55:42] it's not all sign programs are created

[55:44] equal. So again those are exceptions

[55:47] that will carry conditions and those are

[55:49] discussions that happen at each and

[55:51] every individual sign program and not

[55:53] every not every property will have a

[55:54] sign program and that's typically

[55:57] um it's meant for larger properties but

[55:59] is also meant to assist some of our

[56:01] smaller properties that have multiple

[56:03] tenants.

[56:04] >> Yeah. Well, I understand you don't have

[56:06] to have a sign program, but if you do,

[56:09] the the city should have some framework

[56:13] uh size, you know, some objective

[56:15] standards that go into that signed

[56:18] standard or that uh

[56:20] >> program program.

[56:22] >> Yeah. And even even if the doesn't if it

[56:24] stays silent, it it kicks back to our

[56:26] code, which our code has, you know, the

[56:28] basic maintenance requirements that need

[56:30] to get done. So,

[56:34] Raphael, also that I believe you have

[56:35] the findings for the sign program and

[56:37] the ordinance as well. So those would

[56:39] need to be met um for the sign programs.

[56:43] >> Yes, that's correct.

[56:45] >> So section E has the findings that would

[56:46] need to be made to approve those

[56:47] anyways. So

[56:49] >> okay,

[56:53] page 20 or

[56:55] >> I just have a

[56:57] six in the bottom paragraph. It just

[56:59] says established by the director. I

[57:01] think that's community development

[57:03] director. No big deal. But catch that.

[57:06] >> Just uh uh uh one comment on the

[57:13] uh example up at the top of where it

[57:16] says solving shop.

[57:18] You've got XY plus XY. But down here

[57:22] when you're talking about tutoring,

[57:23] you're using ABCD.

[57:26] I think you should use ABCD in the you

[57:30] know

[57:32] uh in both instances again just for

[57:37] consistency.

[57:44] Okay, page 21.

[57:47] Um

[57:48] my here's my question on number seven at

[57:50] the top is measurement of the building

[57:54] facade. um

[57:57] from building frontage and then we slip

[57:59] we we go over to the facade. I think we

[58:01] had to just keep it building frontage

[58:03] but nevertheless um

[58:08] facing to the street. My question here

[58:11] is corners. Is it then streets?

[58:14] >> Yeah, it actually is. So yeah,

[58:16] >> so maybe parallel to the street and put

[58:18] s in parenthesis so people realize that

[58:20] it's both. I I figured it was but

[58:22] >> yeah. Oh, very much. That's the great

[58:24] thing about having a corner lot is you

[58:25] get more signage from your pitch. So

[58:32] » okay.

[58:34] >> Um

[58:37] one under that design and construction e

[58:42] this is this freestanding signs and you

[58:44] know this is a new new uh word that's in

[58:48] our code as far as I know. I remember

[58:50] polls I remember monument but not

[58:52] freestanding. So, it's good that we have

[58:54] it there. Um,

[58:57] I'm I'm I'm not um I guess I'm not

[59:01] understanding. The freestanding signs

[59:03] utilizing bases should be a minimum one

[59:05] foot in height off the ground and three

[59:07] high bases shall be this this.

[59:12] But then if we if I go to page 22 and

[59:18] 23, 22 at the bottom is where

[59:20] freestanding signs start as a header

[59:23] number three. And it starts going up

[59:26] saying under freestanding signs. They

[59:30] have a maximum height of six feet and

[59:32] they can be 32 square feet. And I'm

[59:36] maybe I'm getting them confused. No,

[59:38] that freestanding and this free

[59:39] standing. You've caught an error and it

[59:41] should that should read monument sign

[59:43] that section

[59:43] >> ex or Yes, that's exactly what I wrote.

[59:46] Isn't that the monument over there? Yes.

[59:48] >> Okay. We have those smaller freestanding

[59:49] I

[59:50] >> correct. So that should so that is

[59:54] so that should flip to monument sign

[59:56] standards instead. Yep.

[59:57] >> Versus freestand.

[59:58] >> Yep. Under three.

[59:59] >> Yep.

[1:00:00] >> Yes.

[1:00:03] >> And that's what I had on 20. Um I have a

[1:00:07] question about illumination.

[1:00:11] Um

[1:00:13] on uh C it says uh for uh externally

[1:00:18] illuminated signs it says low lumen

[1:00:22] output but internally we specify a

[1:00:26] maximum. Should we specify a maximum for

[1:00:30] the uh externally illuminated signs as

[1:00:33] well? Yeah, we we we could um again the

[1:00:36] external illuminate those are a little

[1:00:37] bit since we're trying to not have the

[1:00:41] internal illuminated ones we most

[1:00:43] certainly can um and I can take a look

[1:00:45] and do a little bit of research on

[1:00:46] what's the best practice on on that

[1:00:50] >> uh look at uh uh color temperature

[1:00:56] uh

[1:00:59] » I think at what point do you want to

[1:01:01] [laughter] regulate this thing to

[1:01:03] I mean, I I agree. Some some

[1:01:05] temperatures are

[1:01:06] >> soft white lights or do you want uh

[1:01:09] >> there's there's candle, there's soft

[1:01:10] white, there's there's a lot. I think at some point

[1:01:15] >> and some are are very bright even though

[1:01:18] the lumens are the same, they appear

[1:01:20] much brighter.

[1:01:21] >> The the blue hue

[1:01:22] >> Yeah. when you get up to the the 5,000

[1:01:24] Kelvin.

[1:01:25] >> I I wish we would handle that with our building lighting, too, because

[1:01:29] some people have gone with these very

[1:01:31] bright. I'm sure they meet the lumens.

[1:01:33] Um, right. I don't know how that's ever

[1:01:35] been handled.

[1:01:36] >> Yeah, we can we could probably extend it

[1:01:37] with foot candles would probably be the

[1:01:39] best uh go about for that. So, again,

[1:01:41] it's more of like the foot candles is

[1:01:43] just how how far away you can see it

[1:01:45] versus lumens. Um, so most certainly we

[1:01:47] can add in the foot candle. Um, and then

[1:01:51] again, the color, I get it. Some colors

[1:01:53] look, you know, better than others. Um,

[1:01:57] >> it's a discussion. I just don't

[1:01:58] >> in the same area. Can you have color

[1:02:02] changing lights as in the park?

[1:02:06] >> Well, the that's city facility city

[1:02:09] stuff. That's exempt. So, we're not I

[1:02:11] mean,

[1:02:11] >> no, but I mean, could somebody do that

[1:02:14] for an externally lit sign and have

[1:02:17] color changing uh uh illuminating?

[1:02:21] >> In theory, yes. So, we could probably

[1:02:23] want to set that to one solid color only

[1:02:27] and let the business No flashing.

[1:02:30] >> No flashing, which flashing is already

[1:02:32] in. So that's already prohibited. So if

[1:02:34] it's flashing and that's already

[1:02:36] prohibited, so um but limiting to one

[1:02:40] solid color is probably the best bet.

[1:02:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. They do have a definition of

[1:02:45] foot candle, but yeah, you're right to

[1:02:47] that.

[1:02:49] >> The last thing on that, again, hate to

[1:02:51] beat it up. C1E,

[1:02:53] freestanding signs again at the top

[1:02:56] there. So C1E on 21

[1:03:00] I wrote here. What are these? I I don't

[1:03:02] know what these freestanding signs are

[1:03:04] that have to be a foot off the ground

[1:03:06] but can't go more than

[1:03:07] >> free. It's a monument sign. So again,

[1:03:09] it's that's it needs. So originally the

[1:03:12] freestanding was just in one category.

[1:03:14] Um and then upon sort of reflection, we

[1:03:17] had this thing called a kiosk sign,

[1:03:19] right?

[1:03:20] >> But it was it's

[1:03:22] a kiosk cuz it move there was a whole

[1:03:24] bunch of things. So instead it's like

[1:03:25] okay when we break out and say monument

[1:03:27] and a freestanding because really that's

[1:03:28] what it is is and that we have a

[1:03:30] freestanding you know menu signs that

[1:03:33] >> but they got to be they can't be more

[1:03:35] than 3 ft. Monuments can be six and a

[1:03:37] half

[1:03:37] >> right. So this so this design and

[1:03:39] construction is more so referring to

[1:03:40] monument signs because again you want

[1:03:42] that base to at least be 1 ft up to give

[1:03:46] the sign height and then you want to max

[1:03:48] out that base on a monument sign to

[1:03:50] three. just about the bases here.

[1:03:52] Correct. These standing signs using

[1:03:54] bases. The bases should have a minimum

[1:03:56] of one foot.

[1:03:57] >> Correct.

[1:03:57] >> Maybe just put comma. The bases should I

[1:04:00] read it four times and and went what? I

[1:04:03] thought it had to be a max of six. Yeah.

[1:04:05] Okay.

[1:04:05] >> We'll add an illustration. We'll add an

[1:04:06] illustration this. I think that'll help out.

[1:04:09] >> And it says they have to be decorative

[1:04:11] and located in a planter. Correct.

[1:04:13] >> Yeah.

[1:04:16] » If they're located in the planter, you

[1:04:18] can't see them, right? Oh, that's the

[1:04:20] point of the base is the base is to

[1:04:22] elevate the sign up post. The post or

[1:04:24] the base, it elevates the sign up. So,

[1:04:27] >> u but again, you still have a maximum

[1:04:28] that you had adhere to, but what what

[1:04:30] you don't want to see is the sign droop

[1:04:32] all the way down to the bottom beyond

[1:04:34] the base and no one can read it because

[1:04:35] again, the intention of the monument

[1:04:36] sign isn't for a pedestrian, it's for

[1:04:38] the motorist.

[1:04:43] » I'm on 23 if if we pass 22. I don't know

[1:04:46] if we have

[1:04:47] >> I I just have a a question on

[1:04:49] freestanding signs in residential

[1:04:52] districts and it talks about uh

[1:04:57] one per property or residential unit

[1:05:00] with multiple units are located in

[1:05:02] common. So uh a house with an ADU

[1:05:06] couldn't have two. It could still only

[1:05:09] have one.

[1:05:10] >> This is our way of calling it a real

[1:05:11] estate sign without calling it a real

[1:05:14] estate sign.

[1:05:15] >> [laughter]

[1:05:18] » because it it's actually all meant to be

[1:05:20] a real estate sign. So, um you got to

[1:05:23] kind of read between the lines a little

[1:05:25] bit. Um because time of display is

[1:05:28] actually what keys it into what it

[1:05:29] actually is.

[1:05:30] >> Seven days of sale,

[1:05:31] >> right? Exactly. So, seven days of sale

[1:05:33] are rented. And so, the reality is this

[1:05:35] is just a a a for rent sign or a for

[1:05:38] sale sign, but we just can't call it

[1:05:41] that due to contentbased messaging.

[1:05:43] >> Okay. But in in residential districts,

[1:05:46] you can put up a a sign

[1:05:49] as long as it meets the the size. And uh

[1:05:54] so given that, I was wondering what

[1:05:57] happens in mixed use where you have a

[1:06:02] business on the ground floor and

[1:06:03] residential on the top.

[1:06:06] >> It depends on again the the sign of what

[1:06:09] we're talking about. So, if you're

[1:06:11] talking like the non-commercial message

[1:06:13] sign,

[1:06:13] >> Yeah.

[1:06:14] >> then if it's got on the the residentials

[1:06:17] on the second and third floor and they

[1:06:18] have a window and as long as it's two

[1:06:21] square feet, knock your two and a half

[1:06:23] square feet, knock your socks off, put

[1:06:24] it on the window. I can't I'm not going

[1:06:26] to control the message even if it's the

[1:06:28] most absurd message known to man.

[1:06:30] >> Right.

[1:06:33] And our ordinance does say businesses or

[1:06:36] entities on the first floor, put your

[1:06:39] signs on first floor, second floor, put

[1:06:40] them on the second floor. So the

[1:06:41] residents by definition is second floor.

[1:06:43] Therefore, that's where it would end up

[1:06:45] being.

[1:06:46] >> Okay.

[1:06:50] Uh on page 23,

[1:06:53] just a a knit uh um at the very bottom

[1:06:58] BC,

[1:07:00] it says maximum 3 and 1/2 ft. It

[1:07:03] probably should be a a maximum of three

[1:07:06] and a half feet.

[1:07:09] Just a knit.

[1:07:12] Um I've got something on F on page 23

[1:07:15] way up at the top. AB CDF

[1:07:19] again this is I I I wrote this twice

[1:07:22] here where we talk about we talked about

[1:07:24] earlier time of display shall be

[1:07:26] temporarily only placed prior and I

[1:07:28] circled prior we need a definition of

[1:07:31] prior as we spoke earlier and it's the

[1:07:33] same down on G straight down on number

[1:07:36] four placed prior to an event shall

[1:07:39] temporarily be placed again that the

[1:07:41] prior is again two days one day what

[1:07:45] whatever that is and it's funny the one

[1:07:47] down below says within two days you take

[1:07:49] it off under G and you go up to F it's 7

[1:07:52] days after the event I know one's a

[1:07:54] banner and one is not a banner one is a

[1:07:57] freestanding sign but one is two days

[1:08:00] after one's seven days after maybe

[1:08:02] because banners are more offensive

[1:08:04] they're bigger I don't really know but

[1:08:06] prior for certain and it would be better

[1:08:08] to me that they would all be consistent

[1:08:10] within 3 days they got to be down or two

[1:08:12] days and prior x amount for because we

[1:08:16] had that earlier in this in

[1:08:17] >> yeah earlier we talked about three days

[1:08:19] they have to be done so you know

[1:08:22] >> so again the freestanding sign on on the

[1:08:25] poll or the the freestanding sign all

[1:08:27] other districts again is is saying it

[1:08:29] without trying to say it's a real estate

[1:08:31] sign more you know that's what it is

[1:08:33] >> seven days um and then again and then

[1:08:36] again F talks about example real estate

[1:08:38] sign shall be uh removed within 7 days

[1:08:41] after the property sold lease or rented

[1:08:43] a sign uh you know a sign for an on-site

[1:08:47] sales event shall be removed within 7

[1:08:48] days after the event. So again trying to

[1:08:50] give those examples the banner sign is 2

[1:08:52] days and that again that's typically

[1:08:54] because

[1:08:55] again what is the event? The event is

[1:08:58] [clears throat]

[1:08:58] um

[1:09:00] >> cowboy Christmas not in our town but

[1:09:02] I'll I'll use it cuz they're coming up.

[1:09:04] Uh so the event is cowboy Christmas that

[1:09:05] is the time frame. Uh so that is the

[1:09:07] prior to the event and then so it's up x

[1:09:10] amount of days prior to said event and

[1:09:12] then they just we can give them more

[1:09:14] time. We just don't want ultimately in

[1:09:16] the end we want to shorten those banner

[1:09:18] signs simply because those are

[1:09:20] >> let's be honest the cheaper made cheaply

[1:09:22] looking signs so we want to just shorten

[1:09:25] that down. Is two days enough?

[1:09:28] Probably not. Maybe extend it out. We

[1:09:30] can extend it to seven just so we're

[1:09:31] consistent. That'd be fine by me.

[1:09:32] >> I'd rather not. But

[1:09:33] >> I I'd rather not either.

[1:09:35] >> I like the two. I I thought two days

[1:09:37] after an election, you should have your

[1:09:38] signs done and two days after the house

[1:09:39] sells get your sign down,

[1:09:40] >> right?

[1:09:41] >> Yeah. I want to see it shorter than

[1:09:42] longer, but that's just kind of prior

[1:09:44] something prior as we discussed. I don't

[1:09:47] know what that answer is.

[1:09:48] >> All right. Um I can noodle on this one.

[1:09:51] Maybe extend it out to maybe five days.

[1:09:53] That that gives enough time because

[1:09:55] usually these banner signs, Lisa,

[1:09:57] they're they're down pretty quick,

[1:09:58] aren't they? So would you say about

[1:10:01] >> usually after

[1:10:02] >> two day? Yeah. A day or two. Yeah. So

[1:10:04] they're down. We just again the real

[1:10:06] estate signs a little bit tougher simply

[1:10:08] because you're you're putting them into

[1:10:09] the ground

[1:10:10] >> and then some guy's got to come and pick

[1:10:12] it out or unless you were me and I took

[1:10:15] mine out as soon as they clos the sale

[1:10:16] because I didn't want the sign up

[1:10:18] anymore. [laughter]

[1:10:20] So

[1:10:24] » that was all I had on 23.

[1:10:27] >> And am I correct that A-frame is only

[1:10:31] allowed in uh commercial zoning

[1:10:33] districts?

[1:10:34] Yes,

[1:10:35] >> that's

[1:10:37] >> yeah only only in in all commercial

[1:10:40] zoning districts. And this was one we

[1:10:41] had a

[1:10:42] >> they're not allowed in residential

[1:10:43] districts.

[1:10:44] >> No. And it's [clears throat]

[1:10:46] fairly rare that we'll see them in in

[1:10:48] residential districts. Usually you you

[1:10:50] may see them in associated with uh the

[1:10:52] schools. That'd be the one sort of

[1:10:54] caveat or a church. Um, which again we

[1:11:00] [clears throat]

[1:11:01] we can also make sure that the PI is

[1:11:03] covered in there. Now that I'm really

[1:11:05] thinking about it, so we'll we'll make

[1:11:07] sure the public zones

[1:11:08] >> I was thinking of uh at the the church

[1:11:12] down here where they have their food

[1:11:14] program. They usually have an a sign

[1:11:17] A-frame sign set up out there, but it's

[1:11:20] just for the day,

[1:11:21] >> right? And the food program is is uh is

[1:11:24] SNAP and other government sort of funded

[1:11:27] which is now covered from exempt. So

[1:11:30] again, we're just really trying to make

[1:11:31] sure we cover our basis to make sure

[1:11:33] that th those type of things are are

[1:11:35] exempt.

[1:11:38] » Okay.

[1:11:41] I've got a couple things on 24 if we're

[1:11:44] there. I don't know.

[1:11:45] >> We're there.

[1:11:46] >> Um

[1:11:48] I know what we're trying to do here in

[1:11:50] the A-frames. Um, I was against ever

[1:11:52] allowing A-frames, but I lost that one

[1:11:54] also, so I'm fine with that. Um, so I

[1:11:58] know that what you're what we're trying

[1:11:59] to do is saying the the when you look at

[1:12:01] G really gets into the meat of it, um,

[1:12:05] under under the G at the top, it's after

[1:12:08] 30 days, then the verbiage needs to

[1:12:12] change

[1:12:14] to something else. And then I guess

[1:12:15] after 30 days, you can go back to the

[1:12:17] verbiage you had before 30 days. and

[1:12:20] every you could just keep doing two of

[1:12:21] them throughout the year. I I think it's

[1:12:24] going to be really tough to to enforce

[1:12:26] that. I know what we're trying to do to

[1:12:28] not just have it look like it's a

[1:12:29] permanent one. And I like that we it c

[1:12:32] it has to go in. I disagree with five

[1:12:35] o'clock because right now the sun went

[1:12:36] down at five and there are restaurants

[1:12:39] open and it says the earlier five

[1:12:41] o'clock or earlier sunset or the

[1:12:44] business closing it ought to be the

[1:12:47] later sunset or the I don't but

[1:12:50] certainly when the business closed now

[1:12:52] you can't illuminate them but there's

[1:12:53] lots of lights out there on the

[1:12:55] sidewalks that that people can still see

[1:12:57] those happy hour signs or or soup signs

[1:13:01] whatever it is. We'd be happy to

[1:13:03] eliminate it just to make it easiness. I

[1:13:06] mean, again,

[1:13:07] >> I do.

[1:13:08] >> Yeah. It's

[1:13:10] >> we just don't want them out at night.

[1:13:12] Yeah.

[1:13:12] >> This is this is the first cut and I as

[1:13:14] I've said to our council um and I'll say

[1:13:17] it to y'all.

[1:13:18] >> Um you know, we're not going to get it

[1:13:20] right the first time. Well, we got to we got to let it start.

[1:13:24] >> We got to let it cook and figure

[1:13:25] [laughter] out the the spice content.

[1:13:27] >> No. And uh if we don't get it right the

[1:13:30] first time, then we may need to dial it

[1:13:31] down or may need to dial it up, but we

[1:13:33] got to got to give it one crack first.

[1:13:35] So, um I understand I I think the

[1:13:38] intention was that we didn't want

[1:13:40] A-frame signs in the dark and then

[1:13:42] someone hitting it and so but close a

[1:13:45] business. I mean, obviously, you know,

[1:13:47] sun went down pretty early today, um as

[1:13:50] it's winter now

[1:13:51] >> and so um yeah, close a business is just

[1:13:54] as good. So,

[1:13:55] >> okay.

[1:13:57] Um, under banner signs, number two, um,

[1:14:04] we go down to they're allowed, one per

[1:14:08] business, [snorts] 20 square ft. It's

[1:14:11] very large, 2 ft by 10 ft, very large.

[1:14:15] Um, location on a structure, not to be

[1:14:18] located above the first story or on a

[1:14:20] roof. Um, shall not be placed on a

[1:14:22] fence. It's the time of display. So,

[1:14:25] it's a maximum of seven consecutive days

[1:14:28] up to twice a year in the VMU district.

[1:14:35] So,

[1:14:38] and then if you look up the definition

[1:14:40] of what a sign is, it's anything that

[1:14:42] you want it to be. And so, I use a an

[1:14:46] example of Denmark Square. And you've

[1:14:50] got

[1:14:51] I put a banner up that says now open.

[1:14:53] Then I move it over to the next one. Now

[1:14:55] open. I go this next one. Now open. We

[1:14:58] just keep doing it around until we get

[1:15:00] seven consecutive days till it loops me

[1:15:03] twice and there's 15 shops. I just think

[1:15:06] it's excessive. I I don't know how we

[1:15:08] what what the better thing is, but I

[1:15:11] just it just banners again. I I can't

[1:15:15] believe that we're really allowing

[1:15:18] banners on businesses. I know what

[1:15:20] they're designed to do. Having a sale.

[1:15:22] So the shoe store has a sale twice a

[1:15:24] year and it's up for seven days. Outside

[1:15:26] it's 14. Makes sense.

[1:15:29] It can be abused where that sign because

[1:15:34] it doesn't have to say sale. It can just

[1:15:35] say open come visit. Then I just give it

[1:15:38] to my neighbor and the neighbor and the

[1:15:40] neighbor and we just have these banner

[1:15:42] signs up all the way around. I'd rather

[1:15:45] have it say something like and maybe we

[1:15:47] can't control content

[1:15:49] >> sale. No.

[1:15:50] >> Or special event.

[1:15:52] >> No,

[1:15:52] >> it just it just it can say anything

[1:15:54] because you look in definition sign. It

[1:15:55] can say anything we want to say. Now

[1:15:57] open come visit the square. And we just

[1:15:59] keep passing that thing

[1:16:01] >> around and around.

[1:16:02] >> That's content. And we don't we're we're

[1:16:05] already So the problem is right now with

[1:16:06] our banner signs is one,

[1:16:10] it doesn't even limit. There is no time

[1:16:12] duration. It allows it, believe it or

[1:16:14] not. It's there but it's it's basically

[1:16:17] it's some convoluted

[1:16:19] 10 days before opening 5 days after

[1:16:22] opening

[1:16:24] at less than four square ft and then can

[1:16:28] be done if this is this special. It's completely convoluted whereas this

[1:16:32] is much easier to enforce. Now

[1:16:34] >> could we make it smaller than 20 square

[1:16:36] ft?

[1:16:37] >> We most certainly most certainly can um

[1:16:40] >> with 10 you know

[1:16:41] >> we can make it extremely

[1:16:43] performance-based. So again by

[1:16:45] performance space meaning if you're in

[1:16:48] 50 50 square 50 linear feet is pretty

[1:16:50] much the cut off. So one we can change

[1:16:52] it to where it says number of signs one

[1:16:53] per business or property or one per

[1:16:56] property. So then now you're really

[1:16:57] beginning to limit like hey man sorry

[1:17:00] you can't pass it out. It's one per

[1:17:02] property. Um two is you we can go down

[1:17:07] you know 20 square ft we can bring it

[1:17:10] down to 16. Um 12 is the lowest you

[1:17:14] should probably go for these things. Um

[1:17:16] but again, we're really just trying to

[1:17:18] strike this balance of we don't get many

[1:17:21] banner signs. The most times we actually

[1:17:23] get asked for banner signs. And correct

[1:17:25] me if I'm wrong, Lisa. That's typically

[1:17:26] when a business wants to open up

[1:17:29] >> or close. Those are typically the only

[1:17:31] times we have probably maybe I can count

[1:17:33] on my hand the number of times someone

[1:17:35] has asked for a banner sign for like a

[1:17:36] special sale,

[1:17:37] >> but it's mainly just revolving around

[1:17:39] those two items. is now granted we have

[1:17:42] had a certain business that's had

[1:17:44] >> an extended amount of uh

[1:17:46] >> band of signs

[1:17:47] >> closing sale [laughter]

[1:17:51] » hence again time place manner um which

[1:17:53] we which adds us so

[1:17:56] >> I'm if you you know 20 was a number that

[1:17:59] originally it was down to 16 then we put

[1:18:01] it to 20 I mean you know we can go

[1:18:03] either or um you know

[1:18:07] >> I just like them smaller I mean

[1:18:08] >> yeah 16 16 is now you're at the 4x4,

[1:18:11] >> right?

[1:18:12] >> Um, and again, we can keep it at 20 and

[1:18:14] say if it's between if you're over 50,

[1:18:16] you can get 20. Uh, if you're under 50,

[1:18:18] hey, you can you got to go down to to to

[1:18:21] 12 or 16.

[1:18:22] >> There you go.

[1:18:22] >> I like that. And I I like the idea of

[1:18:25] per property also, unless you find some

[1:18:27] pitfall with that. that would take care

[1:18:29] of the

[1:18:29] >> the only thing with per property is if

[1:18:31] one person has a sale twice a year and

[1:18:34] he's used up the entire properties, you

[1:18:36] know, then you get into how come he got

[1:18:38] it twice or she got it twice and so I I

[1:18:41] get that. It's just to me it was an

[1:18:43] awful lot and then they were so big and the thing about the size too, if we

[1:18:49] think about our community, this isn't we

[1:18:52] don't have a freeway running through

[1:18:53] town where you've got to have something

[1:18:54] that massive to catch it. things are

[1:18:57] going kind of at a pedestrian pace here,

[1:18:59] even if you're in a car. So, I don't

[1:19:00] know that you need a great size to draw

[1:19:04] that level of advertising.

[1:19:06] >> We can tighten it up. Um, we could

[1:19:08] definitely break it out a little bit

[1:19:09] further um and take a look through our

[1:19:11] GIS what our linear feed is and then

[1:19:13] just do a quick query and then try to

[1:19:16] come up with obviously anything under 25

[1:19:18] you go down to 12. Again, we're really

[1:19:21] just trying to make sure you expand the

[1:19:22] space out. Um and then obviously 32

[1:19:26] square feet it we're really looking at

[1:19:27] Neielson's and right

[1:19:29] >> and and uh the merkantiel and then out

[1:19:33] you know

[1:19:34] >> those are big

[1:19:36] >> but I'll be happy to come up with

[1:19:37] performance standards based on this you

[1:19:39] know conversation and um amend as

[1:19:43] needed. So

[1:19:47] » my my last one on 24 is maybe I'm just

[1:19:50] not following it. Um permanent signs at

[1:19:54] the very bottom.

[1:19:56] Um

[1:19:58] permanent signs are going to be your your your blade signs are going to

[1:20:02] be your wall signs. They're going to be

[1:20:03] your ground sign. I so I'm not really

[1:20:06] following that. The maximum

[1:20:09] signage size allowed should be 20 square

[1:20:12] feet. By the way, same as the banner

[1:20:14] total

[1:20:16] 20 the maximum. It's not per sign square

[1:20:19] feet or the one square foot per lineal.

[1:20:23] Whichever is less, was it not whichever

[1:20:26] is more?

[1:20:27] >> Yeah. No, it wasn't that's the DRC did

[1:20:29] want the less. And again, it comes back

[1:20:30] to at that point now you're really

[1:20:33] beginning to just pick and choose what

[1:20:35] you want. Um, do you want a very large

[1:20:39] >> ridiculous that that they I mean and

[1:20:42] look they that's what they recommended.

[1:20:44] That's fine.

[1:20:45] >> It does and that's where the sign

[1:20:46] program comes in and that's again it

[1:20:48] it's it's basically it's a I call it the

[1:20:51] choose your own adventure map. And so um

[1:20:55] there's the easy way. You can do it this

[1:20:57] way and call it a day or if you really

[1:20:59] want to go out there at gusto and you're

[1:21:02] very adamant then we'll give you a path

[1:21:05] out. Um it just it's you'll have to ask

[1:21:09] for the exceptions. Um

[1:21:12] so again we're we're

[1:21:14] >> yeah I I to me I

[1:21:18] it should be on we use this linear

[1:21:20] frontage so that there's a increase if

[1:21:23] you're bigger and you're decreased if

[1:21:26] you're smaller which makes perfectly

[1:21:28] good sense. I know it's subjective that

[1:21:31] a very small shop could would come in

[1:21:33] and go, I want I want 20 square feet of

[1:21:35] signage and I've only got X amount of of

[1:21:38] L feet. I got my or I got my 20 ft so I

[1:21:41] can have my 20 square feet so I match it

[1:21:43] on both.

[1:21:44] >> And then you've got someone like again

[1:21:45] Copen House, Kahuna, um the big the big

[1:21:49] guys in in town that 20 square feet.

[1:21:51] None of these signs I I could walk you

[1:21:53] up and down the street, none of them are

[1:21:54] going to meet it. You're never going to

[1:21:55] get those again. 20 is nothing. It's is

[1:21:59] seven square feet. Eight square feet

[1:22:01] signs. That's two and a half of them.

[1:22:03] That's all that's all that a place can

[1:22:05] ever have is two and a half signs. An

[1:22:08] eight and an eight and a four. Done.

[1:22:11] >> And again, that's where the sign program

[1:22:12] allows in the asking for the exceptions.

[1:22:14] And that's

[1:22:15] >> I know, but man, now you got to appeal

[1:22:17] and we know how those go and you appeal.

[1:22:20] I I'm just I'm just surprised that DRC

[1:22:23] went from

[1:22:23] >> to know the exceptions would would go to

[1:22:26] the DRC, right? They wouldn't be over

[1:22:28] the counter,

[1:22:29] >> right? Of course, they go to DRC

[1:22:30] >> and then it goes to planning and then it

[1:22:32] goes to city council and

[1:22:34] >> so we so we can do is we can flag this

[1:22:37] and then bring it to city council and

[1:22:40] then um I mean I I see the argument for

[1:22:43] it as well. Um usually as you have the

[1:22:45] larger linear footage you go up. That's

[1:22:48] what it's

[1:22:48] >> which usually it's always been. Um you

[1:22:52] have certain members in the DRC that

[1:22:54] want to keep it small. Um

[1:22:58] and I'm not doubting their judgment. I

[1:23:00] just um I don't know if any of them have

[1:23:02] businesses in town and realize that 20

[1:23:05] square feet is not a lot for these large

[1:23:08] Burkholmes bakery.

[1:23:11] I mean an eight an eight and a four, you

[1:23:13] know. Uh it's just it's they're

[1:23:16] solving Bruco. I mean these are these

[1:23:19] are big and these apply to hotels. I'm

[1:23:22] assuming hotels aren't exempt. There's

[1:23:24] not one hotel sign that's under 20

[1:23:25] square feet in this town. So if they

[1:23:27] ever change names, it's gone. They're they're they're not conforming

[1:23:32] any longer.

[1:23:32] >> Well, the structure I take the cork for

[1:23:35] instance. The cork went out of business

[1:23:37] and um the sign structure is there and

[1:23:39] they're just changing the face of the

[1:23:41] sign. This new ordinance says face

[1:23:43] changes

[1:23:45] off you go.

[1:23:46] >> So a name change, business change is

[1:23:47] okay.

[1:23:48] >> You get a what it is. Well, you know, as

[1:23:51] an individual, I'll go to city council

[1:23:52] and say 20 is ridiculous. Win that or I

[1:23:55] won't win that.

[1:23:55] >> And and again, that's fine by us and

[1:23:58] then we could go back a little bit and

[1:24:00] start accepting things out where we say,

[1:24:02] okay, well, if you're going to use a

[1:24:03] blade sign, suspended sign, that's

[1:24:04] exempted from it. If you're going to use

[1:24:07] uh a if you're going to use awning sign,

[1:24:10] that's also exempt. Okay. Well, now

[1:24:13] what's left? So, [laughter] there's various ways to slice it. We we

[1:24:17] can most certainly bring this to the

[1:24:19] city council attention.

[1:24:20] >> Well, and I know that there's an example

[1:24:22] of the new shop that went in town, which

[1:24:25] they have, you know, four or five signs,

[1:24:28] maybe six signs because they went, "Oh,

[1:24:29] I'll just do a bunch of small ones." And

[1:24:31] this eliminates that because what are

[1:24:33] you going to do 10 that are two square

[1:24:34] feet? I mean, we we can do that. It's

[1:24:36] going to be cluttered and it's going to

[1:24:38] look ridiculous. And so, it's got to be

[1:24:41] that that's another big shop in town.

[1:24:43] And so, there's some really large shops

[1:24:46] in town that that um the shoe store. I

[1:24:48] mean, my gosh, 20 square feet, it's

[1:24:50] really not a lot. But anyway, that's it

[1:24:54] is what it is. That's just I'm just

[1:24:55] voicing my

[1:24:56] >> And the other the other way is is is 20

[1:24:59] square feet, one square feet per line, a

[1:25:02] maximum of 40. I mean there's there's a

[1:25:04] ton of ways we can slice this. Correct.

[1:25:05] So

[1:25:06] >> correct.

[1:25:06] >> All right.

[1:25:07] >> Correct. So then it the bigger you are

[1:25:09] you can go up to that and the smaller is that.

[1:25:12] >> So we will we'll

[1:25:13] >> it's just not one size fits all is my

[1:25:15] point.

[1:25:15] >> We'll do more analysis but [laughter]

[1:25:18] your your point is taken on there.

[1:25:22] >> Okay. Moving on. 25 and

[1:25:25] >> can I ask 25 C obviously at the top. Is

[1:25:28] that a multi-ten? Is that a directory?

[1:25:31] Is that what that is?

[1:25:33] >> No, it's just it's simply trying to

[1:25:35] allow again this is one way of um trying

[1:25:39] to solve a riddle for some of our

[1:25:43] centers that we have in the downtown.

[1:25:45] >> Okay.

[1:25:45] >> Um allowing sort of this additional

[1:25:49] signage through a sign program. And so

[1:25:52] um you know we that's that's been a bone

[1:25:56] of contention is well we're all the way

[1:25:57] in the back. They can't see us. How do

[1:25:58] we get people there? Well,

[1:26:01] you you chose where you wanted to rent,

[1:26:03] but um again, it's it's just trying to

[1:26:06] figure out how we can do a multi-tenant,

[1:26:10] you know, get some sort of sign program

[1:26:13] that allows for direct just that

[1:26:16] directory sign, but in a much more

[1:26:17] tasteful manner.

[1:26:18] >> No, that I I No, I get it. Um because

[1:26:22] the next page has the directory sign.

[1:26:25] The very next page has directory signed

[1:26:27] with the definition. And I'm just

[1:26:30] wondering, are we being redundant? Is

[1:26:32] this multi-tenant signage? Seems like

[1:26:36] that's a directory and we're allowing

[1:26:39] one lineal square foot.

[1:26:42] >> It's a little bit different

[1:26:43] >> per storefront frontage. So again, if if

[1:26:46] that's the case, if I've got 30 lineal

[1:26:49] feet, I could have 30 square feet of

[1:26:52] signage, but I can't because I can't do

[1:26:55] it here. But here, if it's a

[1:26:57] multi-tenant, I can. Or is it the

[1:26:59] directory can be that big?

[1:27:01] >> It's again, it's just more again, it's

[1:27:03] entering into a sign program, which is

[1:27:05] trying to add a little bit more

[1:27:06] creativity. So you got you got to

[1:27:08] remember that the sign program is your

[1:27:09] ultimate sort of

[1:27:11] >> passcode to unlock creativity. So you're

[1:27:13] not locked in to the standards that are

[1:27:15] sitting in there.

[1:27:16] >> Okay.

[1:27:17] >> And so while you can have a directory

[1:27:19] sign you, yeah, you can have that all

[1:27:21] day long. Um but then maybe you want to

[1:27:24] do a painted wall sign with that has a

[1:27:25] directory on it that's pretty large. And

[1:27:27] so again, just trying to be more

[1:27:29] creative with um the multi-tenants to

[1:27:33] try to get them to unify under one sign

[1:27:36] versus what's kind of being done right

[1:27:39] now is and I don't want to name names,

[1:27:42] but [laughter]

[1:27:43] This might be a better way to sort of

[1:27:45] help and alleviate that situation.

[1:27:48] >> Got it.

[1:27:51] That was it on 25.

[1:27:53] >> Okay. I I have nothing on 26.

[1:27:56] >> I have nothing on 26. I thought it was

[1:27:58] redundant with directory and

[1:27:59] multi-tenant. I couldn't understand it.

[1:28:01] Sorry.

[1:28:02] >> Nothing on 27 either.

[1:28:04] >> Um 27

[1:28:08] and I could be wrong and not reading it

[1:28:10] correctly. It's monu monument sign. If

[1:28:14] we go into the special requirements box,

[1:28:17] um I I think that it would be clearer if

[1:28:21] it would didn't say it said monument

[1:28:23] sign. Instead of freestanding signage

[1:28:25] under A and under D and under E, unless

[1:28:28] I'm not understanding it. Uh, no. That's

[1:28:31] that again was a l was a monument sign

[1:28:34] that I I will take my air and my

[1:28:36] lashings for not making sure those are

[1:28:39] changed out that they should they should

[1:28:41] read monument for all of them. So,

[1:28:45] >> and then the the other thing is the the

[1:28:48] sign the bottom box is that is called

[1:28:51] out the display case. Can a can a menu

[1:28:52] go in that? Is that what that is?

[1:28:54] >> Yes, that's that's the intention of it.

[1:28:56] Yeah. But again, we can't call it menu.

[1:28:58] Yes, [laughter]

[1:28:58] but you can. It's a display. Okay.

[1:29:00] >> It's very much a display case. What it

[1:29:02] displays, I don't know.

[1:29:04] >> Usually a menu. [laughter]

[1:29:05] >> Yes,

[1:29:08] >> that is absolutely fine. And just a

[1:29:11] clarification, if somebody wanted to put

[1:29:13] a window that opens from the outside

[1:29:16] that is a um what do you call it? A

[1:29:18] boxed window, but you can't get to it

[1:29:20] because it's got a a sheer panled wall

[1:29:22] that you can't go in. You wouldn't call

[1:29:24] it a sign. you go to the DRC and get

[1:29:26] approval for a window that's exterior,

[1:29:28] that's a display window that has a

[1:29:30] locking key. I mean, I I don't Right. It

[1:29:33] wouldn't be considered a sign.

[1:29:35] >> Yeah, that's not considered a sign. And

[1:29:36] it doesn't even go to DRC anymore. It

[1:29:38] goes to us first. [laughter] So, Got

[1:29:40] >> Yeah. I mean, it's Yeah. Again,

[1:29:43] >> that's facads. Those are different.

[1:29:45] We're we're talking pure signs here.

[1:29:47] Like in this instance, a display case.

[1:29:49] And I think we had one uh recently. for

[1:29:52] forget which one that wanted this.

[1:29:54] >> Park.

[1:29:55] >> Parkplace. Yeah, Parkplace had a display

[1:29:57] sign yet we didn't technically have the

[1:29:59] regs for it. Don't ask. It's there now.

[1:30:01] [laughter] So,

[1:30:02] >> I get it.

[1:30:08] » Okay.

[1:30:10] >> 28.

[1:30:12] I'm I'm curious as to under the box at

[1:30:16] the top and the box at the bottom where

[1:30:18] it says number of signs permitted.

[1:30:21] You can only have one

[1:30:24] of the window letterings. You can only

[1:30:26] have one of these hanging suspended

[1:30:30] sides. That's that's I'm reading that

[1:30:32] correct.

[1:30:33] >> You are correct. But so let's take

[1:30:35] >> same with the wall sign on the Well,

[1:30:36] that that gives you one on the next

[1:30:38] page. It gives you one per public street

[1:30:40] frontage, but this is just one and one.

[1:30:43] >> So you can't have two of those.

[1:30:46] >> And yeah, we want them mixed up,

[1:30:49] >> right? So, we want them to one. And the

[1:30:51] other uh issue here is um with the

[1:30:54] window sign and and we want to make sure

[1:30:58] you under special requirements that the

[1:30:59] window sign a permanent window lettering

[1:31:01] can extend to multiple windows.

[1:31:02] >> Correct. Has to be one pane. It's only

[1:31:04] 25% or whatever the numbers are. Yeah.

[1:31:06] Makes sense.

[1:31:07] >> So, that is something I just now I'm

[1:31:09] really thinking through because again,

[1:31:12] if you're going to do it and you extend

[1:31:14] it out, we should be able to extend it

[1:31:16] out to Windows. So, we just want to

[1:31:18] clarify that it could be on multiple

[1:31:19] windows, but it'll be counted as one

[1:31:21] sign.

[1:31:22] >> Then the the only thing on on the bottom

[1:31:25] of that page, which corresponds over to

[1:31:28] um the wall signs, is something that

[1:31:30] Brian Schneider brought up, 805 signs.

[1:31:33] I've talked to him many times about

[1:31:35] quarter inch or half inch thickness on

[1:31:38] lettering. And his argument was the

[1:31:40] shadowing. you get to a half inch and

[1:31:43] the if you have a sign you have a light

[1:31:45] over it it it kind of disappears a

[1:31:47] quarter inch he believes is is good and

[1:31:50] we over on on wall sign we do say

[1:31:53] quarter inch under D but on this one we

[1:31:57] say under B half inch um depth and one

[1:32:03] is a bigger sign than the other one I

[1:32:06] mean that'll either be consistent but

[1:32:09] he's argued with me that quarter inch

[1:32:10] looks better from a a lit sign with all

[1:32:13] the shadowing that goes in even with the

[1:32:15] sun down and things like that. But I

[1:32:16] don't know why they picked quarter and a

[1:32:19] half as differences signs

[1:32:21] >> and in fact the wall signs much bigger.

[1:32:23] >> Yeah, Brian did make this argument for

[1:32:24] the projecting signs of letter depth and

[1:32:26] that's in your blue folder.

[1:32:28] >> Um type of sign should be top letter

[1:32:30] depth of 1/2 should be one quarter to

[1:32:32] match the wall sign specs plus carving

[1:32:34] out. And we did have this discussion

[1:32:36] with Brian um at DRC. he he was generous

[1:32:39] enough uh to lend his um eyes to our

[1:32:44] signed ordinance uh and reviewing it as someone who works in the industry. Um

[1:32:49] so I I typically when it comes to that I defer to someone in the industry who

[1:32:53] knows what they're doing and so more

[1:32:55] than likely we'll we'll probably take

[1:32:56] this into pretty good consideration as

[1:32:58] part of the next iteration.

[1:33:00] >> That's I figured it was a yeah slip up

[1:33:03] or something. Who knows?

[1:33:09] I have nothing else on that. Um

[1:33:13] I'm a little worried about the mural on

[1:33:15] page 30 as as we spoke earlier.

[1:33:18] >> Yeah, we'll bet go back to 29 again

[1:33:22] under definition of a mural. Shouldn't

[1:33:25] that be in the definition section? I

[1:33:28] know you have mural defined, but this

[1:33:31] after reading this and what you have in

[1:33:33] definitions, I think this is a much

[1:33:35] better definition of a mural.

[1:33:38] >> The mural should match. Yeah. So, that

[1:33:40] one they'll they'll we'll re we'll make

[1:33:42] sure the murals match definition wise

[1:33:45] that uh 113.

[1:33:47] >> Just take B out of here and put it into

[1:33:50] the definitions.

[1:33:52] >> Yeah. And that's just as good. So,

[1:33:57] because I thought this was a good

[1:34:00] definition.

[1:34:02] >> Yeah. And again, this is uh a little bit

[1:34:05] uh

[1:34:06] PTSD from both Dave Fleshman and I. Uh

[1:34:10] Dave's not here. I know Taylor's on the

[1:34:12] line, but um you know, Dave had a a sign

[1:34:16] uh mural go completely sideways as as

[1:34:20] have I um in two municipalities um that

[1:34:25] I formerly work at. So, a lot of it is

[1:34:28] leading up to PTSD and really what it

[1:34:30] comes down to is really trying to shield

[1:34:33] those of you up here um and let us take

[1:34:37] the hits and cover on that because again

[1:34:39] it it's so subjective. So, we just want

[1:34:41] to really just keep it to the box. Uh

[1:34:44] but we'll bring this to city council's

[1:34:46] attention.

[1:34:49] » Okay.

[1:34:53] » 30.

[1:34:54] Nothing.

[1:34:55] >> Uh I have a question under where it says

[1:34:59] review authority D. It says with the

[1:35:02] standards in subsection

[1:35:06] which sub section

[1:35:10] >> uh plug that hole to make sure it's a

[1:35:12] standard of subsections um

[1:35:16] with a standard in in this it should

[1:35:18] read in this section. So, which would be

[1:35:21] 111310B.

[1:35:25] Oh, yeah.

[1:35:31] No, 11310B1 which is murals. So, that's

[1:35:33] what it should be.

[1:35:38] » And uh under uh the standards

[1:35:44] uh does this apply anywhere in the city?

[1:35:49] Yes.

[1:35:51] >> Residential, commercial, industrial,

[1:35:54] wherever somebody wants to put up a

[1:35:56] mural. As long as they meet these

[1:35:59] requirements, they can.

[1:36:00] >> Yes. Because I I have seen where people

[1:36:02] have turned their garage into a mural.

[1:36:05] >> Yes, there's one right up the street.

[1:36:06] >> There's one up the street. Looks good.

[1:36:09] >> Yeah. I I happen to like it, but a lot

[1:36:11] of people don't.

[1:36:14] >> But uh that's PTSD. That's the whole

[1:36:16] [laughter] point, right?

[1:36:20] 31.

[1:36:22] >> Um,

[1:36:23] >> I keep looking at Aaron. Bill, do you, know, speak up. I

[1:36:26] >> Oh, I I will. I'm listening. You guys

[1:36:29] have been very thorough and I truly

[1:36:31] appreciate Aaron's business perspective

[1:36:34] as he looks at this from both sides. You

[1:36:36] have a large building and perhaps you're

[1:36:38] being restricted or something could be a

[1:36:41] nuisance because there are too many. So,

[1:36:43] I'm I'm actually learning a lot and

[1:36:45] listening. So, thank you both. It's

[1:36:46] because we're been doing it forever,

[1:36:48] right?

[1:36:48] >> Yeah.

[1:36:50] >> Um 31. We're back to the freestanding

[1:36:54] sign.

[1:36:56] >> Yes. The true freanding sign on to be

[1:36:58] confused with the monument sign.

[1:36:59] >> Yeah.

[1:37:00] >> Maximum sign area. This is the four

[1:37:01] square feet. I get it. The height is

[1:37:03] five. Perfect. Um lower edge is three.

[1:37:07] That's I mean it just works out. The

[1:37:09] number is the question I have. None for

[1:37:12] properties with less than 50 lineal

[1:37:14] feet. Is it properties or is it

[1:37:18] businesses or tenants? Sometimes we

[1:37:21] interchange those um those words.

[1:37:24] >> So, this is a new cut. The DRC's not

[1:37:26] seen this. So, you are the first one to

[1:37:28] see this. Um again, based on sort of the

[1:37:32] review of the three meetings and really

[1:37:34] trying to make see what's out there,

[1:37:36] what we got.

[1:37:38] This is a tough one because again, this

[1:37:40] is my first cut at this is is really

[1:37:45] I don't want to name names, but we have

[1:37:48] certain properties

[1:37:50] that uh certain business owners

[1:37:53] want to have this type of signage and

[1:37:55] they want them at uh the both public

[1:37:58] entries that are available. So, if you

[1:38:01] do it per business, you start

[1:38:03] multiplying then

[1:38:04] >> buy that

[1:38:05] >> by that versus if you do it per

[1:38:07] property, we're just saying, hey, we're going to cap you. And the reason

[1:38:12] 50 is chosen is we don't have many

[1:38:14] properties with a 50ft linear frontage.

[1:38:17] So what we're trying to avoid is if

[1:38:20] you're a business, small business

[1:38:24] and you don't have the 50 ft, you don't

[1:38:25] get this because you you don't really

[1:38:27] need it. Um we're really trying to

[1:38:29] capture those businesses that are have a

[1:38:31] deeper sort of lot depth or so hence why

[1:38:34] that the 50 says you can't none. So 50

[1:38:37] to 100 in looking at our GIS, we we have

[1:38:40] quite a few there where these are

[1:38:42] already at. And so we want to limit

[1:38:45] those to to just say, "Hey, look, if

[1:38:48] you're in the 50 to 100, you get one."

[1:38:51] So landlord, you need to figure this

[1:38:53] out. We're not going to figure it out

[1:38:54] for you. You all need to figure this

[1:38:57] out. And then at the greater than 100

[1:39:00] linear feet, which we have a couple of

[1:39:01] them, and again, these are these are

[1:39:03] both. So, if you're corner corner lot

[1:39:05] like the Copenhagen house, you you know,

[1:39:08] you'll you'll have this. You'll be able

[1:39:09] to do it no problem. Which kind of makes

[1:39:11] sense. The larger the lot, the bigger

[1:39:13] the more you're going to be able to get

[1:39:15] this done. But the reality comes back to

[1:39:17] we don't want a proliferation of these

[1:39:19] on our smaller properties and business.

[1:39:22] So, hence why one it says property

[1:39:23] versus business and two was really

[1:39:26] analyzing what we actually have out

[1:39:28] there in terms of linear frontage. I'm

[1:39:30] not married to this. This is my first

[1:39:32] cut, but this is just trying to really

[1:39:33] think this through.

[1:39:34] >> It makes makes sense. You're um and it

[1:39:37] wouldn't matter. So, use a business

[1:39:39] anywhere they um you get one. You say

[1:39:42] you've got 55 ft. It could be either for

[1:39:46] the building or it could be for an

[1:39:48] individual business. Again, it's up to

[1:39:50] the landlord, the business guy. If it's

[1:39:52] the same building and business, peasants

[1:39:54] feast, well, then there's no arguments.

[1:39:56] But if it's the other way, then there is

[1:39:58] and you got to figure it out because

[1:39:59] you're only getting one,

[1:40:00] >> right? So, and that's that's the great

[1:40:02] thing about it because in one particular

[1:40:04] property that I'm thinking of,

[1:40:06] >> they got two right next to each other,

[1:40:08] >> right? And third one

[1:40:09] >> and a third one on the other side. Okay.

[1:40:11] Well, and two of them sit in planters

[1:40:14] that are bolted to the ground and

[1:40:17] >> god they look ugly. And so, [laughter]

[1:40:19] it's just

[1:40:20] >> why not solidify that? give them a

[1:40:23] little bit larger space than what was

[1:40:25] originally allowed, but say, "Hey, look,

[1:40:27] if you can share and divide, be our

[1:40:29] guest." But one, put it in a permanent

[1:40:31] base. Two, put it at a height, max it

[1:40:34] out. No additional signage, no

[1:40:36] additional arrows, no nothing.

[1:40:38] >> Um, again,

[1:40:41] and then here

[1:40:44] figuring out how does this play into the

[1:40:46] extra 20 ft. Um, it may be exempted, it

[1:40:50] may not. So, we we need to figure that

[1:40:52] out as well. So, again, this is more of

[1:40:53] a first cut. Um, and just trying to get

[1:40:56] some sort of feedback on this one.

[1:40:59] >> And if we go back to page 27, outdoor

[1:41:02] display case sign. There's another 2 by

[1:41:04] two. It's four square feet. I'm thinking

[1:41:07] of a building that has three

[1:41:08] restaurants. You could each have one of

[1:41:10] those. It's the freestanding sign that

[1:41:13] is limited by the lineage.

[1:41:16] >> That is correct. And so and that's an opportunity here again with

[1:41:20] our deeper properties that have

[1:41:21] multi-tenants of three or four or five.

[1:41:23] It's the opportunity to maybe they don't

[1:41:25] do a menu sign in sign. Maybe they

[1:41:27] instead do a directory saying these

[1:41:28] three businesses are back here.

[1:41:30] >> Yeah.

[1:41:30] >> Cool. Fantastic. Great. That's one way

[1:41:32] of solving that issue. Um but again this

[1:41:36] is first cut. Be happy to to get some feedback on this but there is a

[1:41:41] little bit of rhyme and reason to it.

[1:41:44] >> Yeah. No, it it does make sense. I think

[1:41:47] that this is just a observation. The

[1:41:50] picture looks like it's a menu sign. And

[1:41:52] so I'm reading I'm going, "Wait, is that

[1:41:54] the menu sign?" So just make it blanked

[1:41:56] out because it's like there's two

[1:41:57] columns with prices, I think. I'm not

[1:41:58] sure. No, [laughter]

[1:42:00] >> because that's I thought that and then I

[1:42:02] thought, "Oh my gosh, you're going to

[1:42:03] have that that one square that has

[1:42:06] them." And they're like, "Wait a minute.

[1:42:07] We get all our menu signs per per

[1:42:09] restaurant." Well, you do. Yeah.

[1:42:10] >> Over on this other um display case.

[1:42:13] >> Yeah. can blank it out and just put sign

[1:42:15] right in the middle so people know to

[1:42:17] sign. So

[1:42:21] » that's all I had on 31.

[1:42:24] >> Okay.

[1:42:25] 32.

[1:42:28] >> Um

[1:42:30] I I I missed it under the hanging signs.

[1:42:33] Um but it caught me because I just w it

[1:42:35] out and put hanging. We you guys changed

[1:42:37] hanging I think to 8 ft. Yet still we

[1:42:40] still have umbrellas and awnings at

[1:42:42] seven. Yeah,

[1:42:43] >> seven. And Brian mentioned that in his

[1:42:46] also that it's sometimes hard with

[1:42:48] eight, nine foot plates. You got to get

[1:42:50] eight. You can't get a hanging sign and

[1:42:52] is seven. I always thought seven was

[1:42:53] kind of our standard, but you know, a

[1:42:55] door is 68. So, I think that's what we

[1:42:57] >> So, this one I just need to ping our

[1:42:59] building official just to make sure

[1:43:00] we're hitting minimum vertical

[1:43:02] clearance. That's what it comes down to.

[1:43:03] So, um I set it to eight because eight's

[1:43:05] sort of that industry standard. Um, and

[1:43:08] I noticed that we are already low and

[1:43:09] I'm like, "Oh, they should really be

[1:43:11] eight." Cuz again, in my walking

[1:43:14] Copenhagen, I can extend my arm out and

[1:43:16] grab one of those signs really easy. I

[1:43:17] don't want to be able to do that.

[1:43:19] >> Um, but again,

[1:43:21] >> Brian does bring up a point. We do have

[1:43:23] some

[1:43:24] >> lowanging

[1:43:24] >> lower hanging that are there. So,

[1:43:26] >> um, and again, these are for new signs.

[1:43:28] These are things we need to remember.

[1:43:29] So, stuff that's there, you're

[1:43:31] interchanging, it's existing,

[1:43:33] non-conforming, and we leave it. We

[1:43:35] leave it as is. It's it's what we're

[1:43:37] looking for when you're doing a remodel

[1:43:39] or new buildings. Now, now you got to

[1:43:41] come into conformance. So, but still,

[1:43:43] let me check in with the building

[1:43:44] official on that one.

[1:43:47] Can on 32 at the bottom I again you

[1:43:51] explained um you have a non-conforming

[1:43:54] sign and you so under non-conforming

[1:43:58] sign AB

[1:44:00] um two

[1:44:03] this is non-conforming signs are allowed

[1:44:06] if you change your face changes on a

[1:44:09] non-conforming that's okay

[1:44:13] but then under C number one it says

[1:44:15] however

[1:44:16] pro prohibited modifications. If you

[1:44:19] change to another non-conforming sign,

[1:44:21] it's prohibited. Well, you are changing

[1:44:22] it from one non-conforming to another

[1:44:25] one. By changing the face, it's still

[1:44:26] non-conforming.

[1:44:28] We need to be I don't know it maybe

[1:44:31] change to another non-conforming sign,

[1:44:33] comma, except for face changes as noted

[1:44:35] above or except for the stuff noted one,

[1:44:38] two, and three. Does that make sense?

[1:44:40] >> Yeah, change another non-conforming sign

[1:44:42] for the exception of section B. That's

[1:44:44] really what it is because again we don't

[1:44:45] want to change it. You don't want non

[1:44:47] one non-conforming sign and then just

[1:44:48] change to nothing. No. So we don't Yeah.

[1:45:04] Then anything for 33 as we begin to

[1:45:07] >> uh nothing on 33

[1:45:12] for me anyway.

[1:45:18] Um

[1:45:20] can I 34 question?

[1:45:22] >> Yeah, go ahead.

[1:45:23] >> Way at the bottom directory sign. A sign

[1:45:26] less than eight square feet that directs

[1:45:28] pedestrians visitors to tenants.

[1:45:30] >> That's

[1:45:32] >> Yeah, we want that's the definition.

[1:45:33] >> Yeah, we want to strike that. The eight

[1:45:34] square feet just says a sign that

[1:45:36] directs pedest Yeah. number 36 direct

[1:45:39] where it says 18 square feet. Yeah,

[1:45:41] eight square feet. Yeah, got it. Thank

[1:45:43] you.

[1:45:50] on 35. I don't know if it needs to be

[1:45:53] done, but under event definition, maybe

[1:45:56] we call it a special event throughout,

[1:45:58] maybe we ought to call that special

[1:46:00] event and not just event, but that's

[1:46:02] just to be consistent.

[1:46:03] >> So there's two types of events. There's the event that connects to

[1:46:06] limited duration signage, which is

[1:46:07] really what this is pointing to. So

[1:46:09] again, set start date. So whether it's a

[1:46:12] garage sale, open house, etc. Special

[1:46:15] events, a whole different ball game. So

[1:46:17] >> this is the federal holiday stuff and

[1:46:18] elections.

[1:46:20] Yeah. Yeah. So, whereas event is

[1:46:21] actually more so I've put my house on

[1:46:23] the market.

[1:46:24] >> Yeah.

[1:46:24] >> Putting my house on the market is the

[1:46:26] event.

[1:46:26] >> Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Thank you.

[1:46:35] » Can Did we ever address or we can't how

[1:46:39] many flags you can have?

[1:46:41] >> The flag ordinance isn't changing. So,

[1:46:43] that's already been addressed and

[1:46:44] already done. Um we've kind of gone

[1:46:47] through that. We're not touching the

[1:46:48] flag ordinance at this point. Um there

[1:46:51] are a few properties still that are out

[1:46:53] of whack with our ordinance. So we that

[1:46:55] is on our to-do list for 2026 bringing

[1:46:58] in lines

[1:46:59] >> under this definition. A corporation

[1:47:01] flag is fine. That's a

[1:47:03] >> So yeah. So that's going to be stricken

[1:47:05] out. Apologize.

[1:47:05] >> Yeah, because we're going to take some

[1:47:06] [clears throat] of that out, right?

[1:47:07] Yeah. The Guinness one or whatever I put

[1:47:10] out Carlsburg.

[1:47:24] I don't I don't have anything else.

[1:47:26] >> Neither do I.

[1:47:28] >> I'm good, too.

[1:47:29] >> All right. Well, again, thank you uh

[1:47:32] council or commission for the feedback.

[1:47:35] It was is much welcome. And and we're

[1:47:37] beginning to be at the finish line and I know this has been a big push for a

[1:47:41] lot of folks. Um but your feedback means

[1:47:44] a lot. um especially coming from from

[1:47:46] all y'all. So, really appreciate it.

[1:47:50] >> Okay. So, uh there's no action or

[1:47:53] anything we have to take on this?

[1:47:55] >> No, not at this point. Yeah, we'll we'll

[1:47:57] uh recue some of these and uh tee it up

[1:48:00] and then we'll take your comments, do a

[1:48:02] little bit more finessing, and then take

[1:48:04] it to council with a couple of

[1:48:06] considerations based on what

[1:48:07] Commissioner Peterson mentioned.

[1:48:10] Okay, moving on to item seven.

[1:48:14] Planning commissioners comments that

[1:48:16] nothing.

[1:48:16] >> The only thing I have is echoing what

[1:48:18] Jack said earlier and the appreciation

[1:48:20] of staff. We had to get it started

[1:48:22] somewhere. My gosh. You know, I know

[1:48:24] it's been a long time coming, but it's

[1:48:25] hard to get in and I'm looking at the

[1:48:27] old one and the new one. I'm doing this,

[1:48:29] >> you know, for about a day and a half.

[1:48:32] >> Oh my gosh. You know, and I have some of

[1:48:34] it memorized, some of it not. So, I know

[1:48:35] what you guys went through to do that in

[1:48:37] the middle of also other jobs that you

[1:48:39] have. So, appreciate it.

[1:48:41] >> No, and it's it's been good. I mean, I

[1:48:43] know Lisa's does a lot of our signs and

[1:48:45] I think on Friday, uh, we had a question

[1:48:47] from an applicant and I'm like, "Hey,

[1:48:49] use the new graphic [laughter]

[1:48:52] because that explains it to a te exactly

[1:48:54] what we're what we're using." So, um,

[1:48:57] because the the definition didn't

[1:48:58] change, so we went ahead and used the

[1:49:00] new graphic for that.

[1:49:00] >> And following up on that, you're I know

[1:49:02] you mentioned it, design guidelines.

[1:49:04] We're going to that that's going to be

[1:49:06] tough too, isn't it?

[1:49:07] >> It is and uh you know Lisa's

[1:49:09] spearheading that and I have an update

[1:49:11] in regards to that. So,

[1:49:12] >> okay,

[1:49:15] » I would just echo well done folks. I

[1:49:17] know it's a lot of work and a lot of

[1:49:19] detail and and you're taking some risks

[1:49:21] there and I think it's worthwhile. So,

[1:49:23] thank you very much.

[1:49:27] » Okay, item eight, community director

[1:49:30] report.

[1:49:31] >> All right. Thank you. So, uh, city

[1:49:32] council, just as many of you know,

[1:49:34] upheld your decision on 1704 mission.

[1:49:37] So, uh, just a quick update of where

[1:49:39] we're at. The applicant did request a

[1:49:41] lifting of the existing stop work. Um,

[1:49:43] however, we did inform them of the plans

[1:49:45] that needed to be submitted per our

[1:49:46] letter and, uh, and review work that's

[1:49:49] beyond the scope of the permit. So,

[1:49:50] that's where we're at right now. Um,

[1:49:52] we're really looking forward to work

[1:49:53] with the applicant and and get this

[1:49:55] items resolved and continue moving

[1:49:57] forward with uh, fining out construction

[1:49:59] of that uh, project. um because overall

[1:50:03] it it is a good project for the city and

[1:50:05] uh you know we are looking forward to

[1:50:07] that. Um city council will be moving

[1:50:09] forward to adopt the 2025 California

[1:50:12] building code at its November 24th 2025

[1:50:14] meeting. I know that didn't go to you um

[1:50:16] but we are um part of we are at the end

[1:50:19] of our uh tri triannual cycle. Um

[1:50:22] there's one sort of caveat to that is

[1:50:24] our our residential um there was a new

[1:50:26] state law uh passed as a part of the

[1:50:28] budget that freezes uh residential

[1:50:30] building code updates. So this will be

[1:50:32] the last one of those that you'll see

[1:50:33] for the next six years. So um it kind of

[1:50:36] gives a lot more certainty moving

[1:50:37] forward. Um so which is great. Um we

[1:50:41] will be having a December meeting. I

[1:50:42] know there was some questions of that

[1:50:44] and that is to discuss short-term

[1:50:45] rentals. So um that's we're currently at

[1:50:48] the finish line on that one. um which is

[1:50:52] fantastic. Um that is now in for review

[1:50:54] at the city attorney's office. The city

[1:50:55] attorney, I know Taylor's looking at it.

[1:50:57] Um but hopefully we'll get that into

[1:50:59] ordinance format. It's based on the

[1:51:01] recommendations of just limiting our uh

[1:51:03] short terminals into the village only

[1:51:05] and then carving out if you had an exist

[1:51:07] if you have a R3 um and you have an

[1:51:10] existing permit um you'll be able to

[1:51:12] apply for one with some caveats and

[1:51:14] exceptions. But again, that'll be coming

[1:51:16] to you for recommendation and we'll have

[1:51:18] that in ordinance format. Um, and as a

[1:51:20] part of that, we're actually going to

[1:51:21] beginning our begin our enforcement of

[1:51:23] our ordinance since there's no path

[1:51:25] forward at this point for folks that are

[1:51:27] operating short-term rentals outside of

[1:51:29] the village. So, um, letters will be

[1:51:31] going out at the end u by midmon

[1:51:33] informing them that they need to um

[1:51:36] cease uh their their operations.

[1:51:39] Um, speaking of uh we are moving along

[1:51:42] with the administrative draft, the

[1:51:43] design handbook. Um, so we're actually

[1:51:45] hoping for um either a December or

[1:51:48] January to bringing that to the DRC very

[1:51:51] similar to what we did here is we'll

[1:51:52] bring it to DRC first. Um, get some sort

[1:51:55] of feedback, re re-edit, reit it down

[1:51:58] and then bring it to you for that sort

[1:52:00] of second check-in on feedback and then

[1:52:02] bring it to city council and then we'll

[1:52:04] re-reverse it out back to everybody. Um,

[1:52:08] so um, Lisa's been uh doing that and

[1:52:11] she's I'm the one now that's behind. But

[1:52:13] I'm sorry, Lisa, that I need to review

[1:52:14] that. Um, but we are looking to get that

[1:52:17] done, uh, here at the latter end of this

[1:52:19] year and at the beginning of next year.

[1:52:20] And then, um, speaking of the sign

[1:52:22] ordinance, it either returned either in

[1:52:24] January, uh, to this body or in

[1:52:27] February. So, we don't know quite yet

[1:52:28] where we're going to land with the city

[1:52:30] council. U, uh, but after, uh, we get

[1:52:32] input from the council, um, we'll, this

[1:52:34] will come back to you. And it'll

[1:52:36] actually come in two forms. One is the

[1:52:38] ordinance format, but also a sign

[1:52:40] handbook. So, we'll be working. So,

[1:52:42] whatever comes out from the city

[1:52:44] council, that's what we'll put into the

[1:52:46] handbook, which will be a much more

[1:52:48] reader friendly, easier to use,

[1:52:50] incorporate some of the graphics that

[1:52:52] we're already doing. And so, that way we

[1:52:54] it's it's a finished product that

[1:52:56] everyone gets to see, and then uh

[1:52:58] everyone now starts playing on the same

[1:52:59] rules. Um, and then finally, we we uh

[1:53:03] bless uh Cole Phillips in our public

[1:53:05] works department. Um, he recovered uh

[1:53:08] two goats that were roaming the street.

[1:53:10] So if you are missing any goats, they

[1:53:12] are at the animal shelter in Santa

[1:53:14] Maria. Um

[1:53:16] so

[1:53:17] >> goats eating eating vegetation.

[1:53:19] [laughter]

[1:53:20] >> Wish we could

[1:53:22] >> um we don't know where they came from.

[1:53:23] So they were just roaming the streets.

[1:53:25] So uh

[1:53:26] >> had some goats eating stuff on the

[1:53:28] [laughter] field over there. So

[1:53:30] >> they're little goats. They're little

[1:53:31] goats. So they're little guys. So, if

[1:53:34] you're missing any goats and you're

[1:53:36] watching, go call animal services and

[1:53:38] hopefully we'll we'll re reunite you

[1:53:40] with your goats.

[1:53:42] >> Can I ask you two questions? The the

[1:53:46] until the design review handbook gets

[1:53:48] changed. This is going to happen sooner

[1:53:51] than that. I mean, the design review

[1:53:53] handbook is still the

[1:53:57] >> Are you talking the design guidelines?

[1:53:58] >> Yes, the guidelines. I'm sorry.

[1:54:00] >> Yes, that's in place.

[1:54:01] >> That is very much in place. that

[1:54:03] actually has to go through a repeal. Um,

[1:54:05] so essentially what will end up

[1:54:06] happening is once we dial in the

[1:54:07] handbook, we come to this the DRC for

[1:54:10] recommendation, the planning

[1:54:11] commissioner recommendation, and the

[1:54:13] city council will adopt and then repeal

[1:54:17] the old guidelines.

[1:54:18] >> The old one stays in place until

[1:54:20] >> correct. Yeah. So,

[1:54:22] >> and the last question,

[1:54:25] um, the the stop work order on on the

[1:54:27] St. George property, I don't even know

[1:54:29] the address, 1704. Was that because of

[1:54:32] the design or was that because of some

[1:54:34] other structural things?

[1:54:37] >> So in the interior there's a substantial

[1:54:39] amount of work that deviated from the

[1:54:40] approved permit in the interior in terms

[1:54:42] of the floor plan. Um also on the

[1:54:44] exterior flat work it it deviated

[1:54:46] particularly when it comes to storm

[1:54:48] water drainage. So what a lot of people

[1:54:50] don't understand is storm water drainage

[1:54:52] is heavily integrated into the amount of

[1:54:53] what's called impervious surface. And so

[1:54:56] the minute you start adding impervious

[1:54:57] surface that really changes the calculus

[1:55:00] of your drainage and it may trip you

[1:55:02] into doing additional um uh le features

[1:55:06] or other sort of underground work that

[1:55:09] needs to get done to retain the storm

[1:55:11] water. So it's actually a bigger deal

[1:55:13] than meets the eye. Um, so that was

[1:55:15] mainly the main trip up was the ADA, the the other storm water and the other

[1:55:21] sort of interior work where you can't,

[1:55:24] you know, run an inspection and then the

[1:55:25] inspection essentially becomes a

[1:55:26] correction of either demo what you're

[1:55:28] doing and put it back to what it's

[1:55:29] supposed to be or go revise your plans

[1:55:32] and tell us what it actually is and

[1:55:35] we'll inspect for what it actually is.

[1:55:37] So that that's where we're at.

[1:55:38] >> That's where it's at.

[1:55:39] >> That is where it's at.

[1:55:40] >> Okay.

[1:55:44] I do have a question related to that

[1:55:46] project. Um because the project is

[1:55:49] scaled um are is the developer still

[1:55:53] having to meet uh building codes, door

[1:55:56] heights and such.

[1:55:58] >> So a lot of folks uh there were

[1:56:00] questions about the door heights. Um

[1:56:02] there are actually two doors. People

[1:56:04] don't realize that there's the main

[1:56:06] entry door which is actually to code

[1:56:09] >> usually in the back where you can't see

[1:56:11] it. Yeah. And so that that's the and

[1:56:14] that's part of the issue with the floor

[1:56:15] plan is those doors were never called

[1:56:17] out whether they were ingress egress.

[1:56:20] And so these these technically can't be

[1:56:22] ingress egress doors. So they got to

[1:56:24] figure that out. And and so um you know

[1:56:28] but there was that comment of well

[1:56:30] that's not even up to code. No it is.

[1:56:33] There's just the main entrance is on the

[1:56:34] side that is actually to code and done

[1:56:37] per plan. Glad to hear that. Yeah.

[1:56:42] Okay. Nothing else.

[1:56:45] Okay. We're adjourned at 854.

[1:56:52] » 7:54.

Planning Commission Meeting 11/03/2025

Agenda

Transcript