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[4:39] ? >> cam make chair Jones Thank you for it isn't. I think we

[5:00] have just about everybody here, everyone here, wonderful. I want to welcome

[5:05] everyone to the September Library board meeting. know we have a few guests here today,

[5:09] which is exciting. >> We are the governing board for the library. The library

[5:17] has its own levee. I don't know. Folks know that. So we will be primarily discussing

[5:22] the library budget today. We do have a couple of action items before us today. mostly

[5:28] going to hear the mayor's proposed library budget which will presented to us by

[5:33] Director Hartman. We're not making any any decisions today. We're here to listen to

[5:38] the budget which will have important information on us to help us make choices about the

[5:43] budget prior to our maximum Levy vote, which is coming up on September 23rd and final

[5:47] budget in December. I do want to recognize that the primary item that will be discussing

[5:54] today in the library budget presentation is going to be the Dayton Library. We'll be

[5:57] dedicating a lot of our time to that. There will not be a public hearing today on the

[6:02] Dayton Library. We do have that public hearing item on different action. before that.

[6:10] But there will be discussion led by Councilmember Johnson on September 24th at 06:00PM

[6:17] at Central State people. Every 302, said like to welcome. You know, folks to come to that.

[6:21] We also do have our public hearing, which is the truth and taxation hearing prior to

[6:28] the budget. Final adoption later this year and so I just wanted to kind of make sure

[6:33] it's clear kind of what we're going to be discussing here today. And we also do have, in

[6:39] addition to the INS will fly the entire library budget that we want to get through. So I

[6:42] do anticipate we will be going right up to 2 o'clock pretty close to that. You know, so

[6:48] folks need to take a break. Go ahead and do that. I will do my best to keep moving along

[6:54] so we can get through everything. So thank you again, everyone for being here

[6:58] with I will turn it actually back over to Caleb Item. Number minute. 26 stash. 26

[7:07] approving the minutes of the August 2026. >> Library board meeting.

[7:13] >> All right. So we have a library board minutes before us. I will take a motion from

[7:19] Councilmember Coleman to approve. Is there any discussion? All in favor say

[7:23] Aye, aye. All those opposed. >> 7 in favor. None opposed. The minutes are approved. Item

[7:33] number 2 resolution public in 26, dash 2, 4, 3, accepting a gift of 309,000 from the

[7:42] friends of Saint Paul Public Library and amending the library's 2026. financing and

[7:48] spending plans. >> Great really excited to accept this gift. This is also

[7:57] a public hearing on this item. anyone is here to speak on this item, please come up. You

[8:03] have 2 minutes and please state your name and where you're coming from. A few here

[8:09] to talk about item number 2. It doesn't look like we have anyone. So I will take motion

[8:19] from Councilmember Kim to close the public hearing and approve item on favor. Say

[8:22] Aye. of the post. 7, Notable So you That item is item. Is it that okay item number 3

[8:43] staff report 26 dash one. 76. >> And the 27, I think proposing wonderful. So now

[8:50] we're at the presentation of the budget. I will turn it over to Director Hartman.

[8:55] Thank you for being here. >> Thank you, chair. Just thanks, everybody for being

[8:59] here. My name is Ryan Hartman. I'm the library director in the city of Saint Paul. And

[9:04] I'm so grateful to leave this work in the city and especially grateful to my

[9:08] staff who such good work and give me permission to lead into our residents who support

[9:14] library and who use them every day. We are not 14 separate library is we are one system

[9:20] working together to serve the city of Saint Paul. Presenting this budget today is very

[9:23] painful. No library director ever wants to be in a situation where we where are

[9:30] talking about closing a library are reducing hours, but the city and therefore the

[9:37] library is in a difficult budget situation. The library cannot continue to deliver the

[9:42] same amount of services with a smaller budget or frankly, even with a flat budget.

[9:50] Libraries are one of the best things this country invented. And it is both gift and a huge

[9:55] challenge. That across the country, public libraries are overwhelmingly funded by local

[10:03] jurisdictions, cities and counties. I am passionate about libraries and I will

[10:08] keep fighting for libraries. Just like all of us in this room and I will fight for 2

[10:13] things. But the library can't do more with less. And that in addition to community members

[10:20] supporting libraries, we also want community members to continue to use library us. So

[10:24] let's get started. So as you heard Councilmember Joe say it's task today to present you

[10:37] with the mayor's proposed budget is not my task to convince you to close the

[10:41] dance. librarian or convince you to not close at it i for me to demonstrate how that is

[10:46] showing up in the mayor's proposed budget. The factors, budget savings that go into

[10:53] this and the factors that led to her recommending this in her budget. In the 2027

[11:00] budget. There is the proposed closure of the Dayton Library included in that closure

[11:05] amount is the lease with Metropolitan State University. You'll see a number of

[11:12] $148,274 there. The city budgets 131,700. The library would absorb any remainder and

[11:22] any annual increase as in addition, there is a technology savings. If the

[11:31] library work clothes, we wouldn't spend library money on technology. The same thing

[11:34] is true of library materials costs. And there is also permanent personnel savings.

[11:41] So just to be clear with this proposed item, no library staff member will lose their

[11:48] employment, but we are losing 1.3 fte. >> Through attrition, which

[11:52] means holding vacancy. Us and that we have right now. This budget proposal reduces 1.3

[12:00] fte as a permanent reduction and also proposes repurposing 4.1 Ft has positions become

[12:08] vacant through 2027 to permanently fund the remainder of the library safety

[12:15] specialist positions, some of which as you'll see from my slides later on only have one

[12:19] time funding through 2027. >> Maintaining the Danes Bluff Library. We'll eliminate the

[12:26] plan for the ongoing funding of 4 of the 7 Library safety specialist. You'll see in this

[12:31] budget. They are wrapped together. They do not have to be. And that is the work that

[12:37] could be in front of you and the mayor. >> But to give you a little

[12:42] bit of an overview of Dean's it opened in 2004 has an innovative partnership with

[12:48] Metro State University. As I think most of us know, it is a public library within a local

[12:55] for us ppl at the time from 12 locations to 13. Our holiday closures differ. At that

[13:06] location that are other locations due to Metro State holiday and whether closing

[13:10] policies. It is a little over 6,600 square feet. It's a portion of the ground floor of

[13:17] Metro State Library and the Learning Lab building has 7 library employees is the

[13:23] equivalent of 5.4 Ft. It is one of 2 least library spaces in Saint Paul. Our second is

[13:28] the West 7th Library. The public Library has one small meeting room has a capacity of

[13:36] 10 people and has 14 computers. All Saint Paul residents can get a community

[13:41] borrowing card from Metro State for non-students. That allows access to check out

[13:45] materials that are metro states access computers and members of the public also can

[13:52] print and use photocopying get reference and research news, Publix study tables and

[13:59] seating in the larger Metro State Library. Just want to clarify that. I want to make

[14:08] sure that, you know that during the pandemic we had a partnership with the Ramsey

[14:12] County Workforce Solutions at our day in Slough Library. So he temporarily re commissioned

[14:17] this location as a career lab we had had. This was actually the first base in the state of

[14:24] Minnesota that was during in-person computer help during the pandemic. We opened in the

[14:27] summer of 2020. We had service level 6 days of the week through walk-in appointment

[14:32] based services. There is a significant investment of county cares dollars to

[14:39] support the staffing and marketing. This was library staff that were repurposed

[14:42] into these positions. There is an investment of over $500,000 and this was a significant

[14:49] contribution to the city's overall bottom line and helped avoid library, layoffs and

[14:54] city layoffs. Overall. Our library staff at Dayton's Bluff work really, really hard

[15:05] to engage the community in welcome the folks that are coming in. Up until this

[15:10] school year are mobile library, which is a separate system wide service. I had a

[15:15] regular visit to the Dayton Elementary. Dan entry is asked us not to return this year.

[15:21] Not because they don't like the service but because they're interested in focusing

[15:25] their services and their resources on their media center now that they have a

[15:29] media specialist in that building. So we were delivering regular service to

[15:35] kids in that school. And as one of our one of our best mobile library spots. Our

[15:41] community services team, which is a service team that works across the whole city, has an

[15:44] active and regular partnership with clues. And as a member of the Adult Literacy consortium

[15:49] delivering services and classes too. Folks who are learning U.S. in addition

[15:56] locally at our Dance Bluff Library, they do regular visits to do with gardens. A

[16:00] senior living up the street, regular partnership Metro State on a book club. Visits

[16:06] from in today's Bluff Wreck. Partnership with Urban Roots and the Seed Library. We'll

[16:12] have outreach presence at Fiesta. Latina and Rivoli. left Bash. I want to let you

[16:20] know that there are several locations. Relatively nearby Arlington Hills, George letter

[16:27] or Central Library and Sundry Library there. Also, as you can see, listed here, some

[16:32] mobile library stops in the area. Additional mobile library staff is coming soon

[16:39] on 7 for an active conversation with 2 different possible partners on 7th. And

[16:43] that's regardless of what happens in the future with Dayton's bluff. It's important

[16:46] for us to continue to. I connect with community members in the area. Yes, council

[16:55] president maker and then Councilmember. >> Thanks just just curious,

[17:02] director, you know, 1.9 miles away close to 2 miles away. Is this not? Very close? I'm

[17:07] wondering, especially when this library unique partnership created with Metro

[17:10] State was there standard or is there currently a standard as to how? How our library

[17:18] coverage should be geographically, how far any one resident should be.

[17:20] >> From a library. >> Churchill's councilmember in a car. We don't have a

[17:25] current standard like that. >> And chairman, thank you. Director the Super Bowl stops.

[17:35] How often are they going to each of those locations? >> Generally, mobile libraries

[17:40] stops are on an every other week. So there's like the first and 3rd Tuesday at 10,

[17:45] 30 or the second and 4th Thursday at 2 o'clock. >> And then question for how

[17:49] about a long stuff. >> got >> It depends on te staff and

[18:00] the between 30 minutes and 2 >> You're going to see some slides and data. And I want to

[18:10] say a word about data. Data is to the primary driver for this decision. Is that I was asked

[18:18] to reduce our budget. All right. And so I want to be really clear because I've

[18:23] heard this from community members and I've heard it from other folks.

[18:29] >> I can't reduce hours at other locations that we own without laying off staff. So

[18:35] ours reductions in buildings that the library owns equal staff reductions. Dayton's

[18:42] bluff is a leased space. It is not fair that it is a lease space and that's where i is.

[18:50] But that's where the cost savings come from. So as we look at this data and as I

[18:55] look at this data, I'm especially interested in having a conversation about

[19:02] what this data shows us about usage and what it doesn't show And Councilmember Johnson is

[19:09] absolutely right. There are lots of different ways. We can tell the story about usage.

[19:12] But what I will absolutely continue to emphasize is that visitor count, which is the

[19:19] way that we count, how many people come through the door is an important metric. I

[19:26] can't deliver library services to you at a location unless you come through the door.

[19:31] Circulation absolutely is not the only important thing Wi-Fi use is important. PC uses can

[19:38] Parton program attendance. All of those things are important. And if you look in the

[19:41] appendix, you have all of that across all of our libraries. The main thing happening here

[19:46] is the cost of the lease. So I'm not going to walk through all this data, but you can see

[19:54] it here. >> I remain very interested and very passionate regardless

[19:59] of what happens with left to continue to have a conversation.

[20:03] >> With Councilmember Johnson with members of this community to ensure that our library

[20:08] continues to be used in the way that I know this neighborhood values and watch

[20:13] their library to the emergency. >> Thank you. And thank you,

[20:20] director for >> for that for a minute. And just like the overall framing

[20:23] of it, I think it's it's really important to talk about that. And I won't even say

[20:29] that, you know, looking at the usage data that is presented, I won't take the time to

[20:33] really are you the numbers I will put in framing that. The open 51 hours week. Some of

[20:40] the branches are open. 55 to 59 hours a week. It has 14 computers. And 10 person

[20:49] meeting room. It's fraction of some of the meeting room spaces of other libraries,

[20:54] central Arlington Hills. Holiday Inn. Weather closures also follow mentor, State

[21:02] University. It's close on days. The other branches are open. If you build a smaller

[21:07] store on a storefront. And you have less hours and less inventory and then you measure

[21:13] it against the Bears store somewhere else across cty. And then you go, wow, this

[21:20] small store with the smaller Tori has less usage anywhere else in the city and use that

[21:24] and compare it. >> To another place for the bigger story for the bigger

[21:27] star friend. You're surprised that it has less vsitors. I just want to share wth you

[21:33] that that doesn't necessarily tell you the real data. It also doesn't communicate

[21:36] whether or not a neighborhood deserves a library. It's comparing apples to oranges.

[21:41] And I think that that tells you more about how we are investing in the community.

[21:47] Then and are investigating and a community itself. And so when I look at these numbers,

[21:54] I just want to put them in the frame that in spite of having a small library with smaller

[22:00] resources with smaller hours operation and other places across the city. These are

[22:03] still the numbers putting up a 2025. I want to also be clear that involved was not the

[22:08] lowest ucits library in 2025. I want to also add in 2020 16 spoke Libre's usage. I's up

[22:15] 7% from where it was this time last year. And I just want to share like some of the pieces

[22:21] around data and what we're looking through for usage number is twice over the

[22:29] entire population of days but neighborhood. And we are thinking about just visitors

[22:33] and people that are looking at. I assume that every person and it brought that lived

[22:38] spots, including myself, went there 2 to 7, 2.7 as this will be the number of metrics that

[22:43] you would see. I think data is really incredibly telling. But I just want to frame it. We

[22:47] have put these numbers up despite not having it infrastructure that we one as

[22:51] a city owned operated by very in our community. And it's been like that for 22 years.

[22:57] And so just putting that frame of mind is that like these numbers are coming up, despite

[23:02] the fact that we as a city has not have not invested in an actual infrastructure building

[23:07] to own, to operate, to turn, to maintain and so like I see these numbers along with the

[23:12] other side, you'll see things around like the 73% decline and usage. When we hve a 43%

[23:19] decline in usage of the systems all over all as metrics and determine Ian's.

[23:23] And I agree wholeheartedly that these aren't necessarily supposed to be indicative of

[23:29] whether a neighborhood stays there. But I have to reframe the usage data and to give it

[23:33] context because you're talking about it square footage that is significantly smaller than

[23:38] other places in the city. You're also talking about a library that has small the

[23:42] resource, a smaller staff that is maintained change management. Multiple times.

[23:48] You're also talking about just several disadvantages, several situations where we are to

[23:53] that scene and But they've or hood a neighborhood that is are ready to send that

[23:58] invested in a neighborhood with a of average income lower than $50,000 for a family of

[24:00] 4. And you're saying news at the same as you would pretty much a supermarket in another

[24:06] area and the city. And that's just not a fair analysis. So I just wanted to say that

[24:11] reframe it and to talk about why usage data itself too. Justify library existing are

[24:19] not existing isn't inherently. Inequitable tool when you're talking about buildings of not

[24:26] the same hour as operations and not the same size and I will just add into a 25 with a

[24:30] cyber attack. We literally had no computer usage. so it's just ironic that we are using

[24:38] usage data. And here we have to take into account the fact that it's library continues to

[24:43] be a driving factor for Wi-Fi and computer usage and that resource was not afforded to

[24:48] the is my residents along with the rest of the city and multiple times throughout the

[24:51] city. So just putting that into perspective. I'm also just like I have several other

[24:57] remarks at all coming today. So I'm really thankful that the Inc plus libre information

[25:01] was put on the appendix and put in the beginning because I think it'll make for a

[25:04] fruitful conversation. forward. >> really appreciate that. I

[25:11] think what want to just emphasize, it's difficult 2000 but it's just emphasize that

[25:18] the 15 visits per hour, even though like we're seeing the data. But that's a person

[25:23] that's getting a Resources with a library staff. A deeply cares about them being not

[25:26] just president in there in the space with that they're utilizing and accessing all of

[25:31] the wonderful things that are libraries have to offer. So when I even see the 15, this

[25:35] is per hour and thinking about an individual walking in and seeing a friendly face, some

[25:41] of that's willing to help them a system of printing offer resume right connecting their

[25:44] kids to homework. Help time. I'm signing their kids up for reading together or even

[25:49] accessing, you know, one of mental health assistance a library. even though like yes

[25:57] to all the data and I really appreciate that greater context for Johnson. You know,

[26:02] to me, to be honest, this number could be even lower and lower in terms of business per

[26:04] hour. And there still and incredible inherent value of a single person walking into a

[26:11] libraries like eons blast. That is walkable from their neighborhood that's serving

[26:16] their neighborhood. That a system where they're at and and I I just want to emphasize

[26:21] for myself, again, like the number could be lower and it doesn't change the value that

[26:24] I see in terms of those folks walking into city resources. So I appreciate comments

[26:29] Johnson. Thank I yeah. I hear everyone is saying. We're going to there's a lot of data

[26:38] in this presentation. There's also even more in the appendix and I.

[26:43] >> I agree that, you know, the usage that is much more complex, just like ay data

[26:49] set is and there's a lot a lot of different different variables and things that

[26:53] talked about when you're comparing. One library to another. And I also agree

[26:58] that, you know, the usage that we're looking at and the cost savings and things like that

[27:03] don't necessarily equal the value. That guy is that these libraries in the services

[27:09] provide for our residents. Appreciate that. Framing his are moving forward. I'm going

[27:13] to have continue that sort. >> Thank you, chair Joe Saint don't want to get in a quibble

[27:21] about data and knowing that all our libraries are open, different numbers of hours.

[27:28] That's why I've included in the appendix hour by hour data, right? So we've sort of

[27:32] equalized against a library that opened 51 hours versus a library that opened 59 hours,

[27:35] right? So understood there's all kinds of differences. And also I just want to be really

[27:41] clear. >> That all of our >> this is not a value

[27:47] judgment. I know it feels like that. It feels like that to my staff a well.

[27:54] >> this library use is valid and its importance. And also I have the almost impossible

[27:59] task of cutting a budget, right? So I want to just be very clear that this is not a

[28:06] value statement. This is about me looking around in the library budget knowing that

[28:11] the mayor had a priority for not laying our frontline staff and looking at the next thing

[28:15] that costs the most in our budget. And in this case, it's our buildings. In this case,

[28:21] it's the lease. So, yes, there are other libraries that have similar used patterns to

[28:25] Dayton's bluff, but the significant difference being that I can invest in them, I

[28:30] can control all more of how I hope that they will continue to be used more in the future.

[28:36] >> And Payton Heights is a great example of that. So I want kind of refocus to nobody

[28:42] values libraries more than me and my team. And also we're not having a budget neutral

[28:47] conversation. Of course, 15 visits per hour is legitimate because of all the things that

[28:50] happened there. But I have a budget problem and I'm looking to you all. And then there,

[28:57] too. To help figure out what are we going to do about this and also how we can continue

[29:02] to get our libraries. all over the city? question was asked in preparation for this

[29:14] meeting. And so I appreciate the help of my. >> A colleagues, the question

[29:18] was headed to Dayton's bluff and from the safety specialist in 2027 in 2028. So you'll see

[29:24] the chart here. total 2027 gap is 286,700. And $22. We were also asked what amount of

[29:36] increase that would be to the overall levy. You'll see that information there. And in a

[29:41] minute, I'm gonna start talking about library safety specialist. And you'll see the

[29:47] information requested their approximately what that would result. And for a levy

[29:49] increase in 2028. So I am gonna move on to library safety specialists. not okay.

[30:05] >> I think that's I know be more one more time if okay. >> It's intertwined. And as I

[30:08] said, where it is right now. as the spotty nose. And has been so supportive of the

[30:22] library started a new safety strategy. >> And 2021 with arpa funding

[30:28] and has proven more successful than we could have imagined in the 2027 budget. There is an

[30:34] investment in the library safety strategy. There is 3 point o Fte in our library

[30:40] safety specialists in the General Fund based budget. You can see the number there there

[30:45] is. And that's ongoing. There is one point o fte. I for 2027 only and then there is 2 Ft in

[30:55] the general government special projects carry over. So that's the remainder of the formally

[31:00] are from money. We request permission to carry over to use in 2027 and then we have

[31:05] succeeded in getting grant funding for one FT in our library, special funds through

[31:11] grant from the Mellon Foundation. So the this the remaining 4 of the 7 ing -

[31:18] safety specialist is the repurposing of public srvice positions from Dayton Library.

[31:23] Has that become vacant in 2027? >> A special fund investments.

[31:32] Again. Library safety specialist a strategy. There are 2 library safety

[31:38] specialist in the general government special projects fund. This is a repeat of what

[31:40] I just said. >> But it's a special funds and then one library safety

[31:45] specialist in the library special fund, that restricted grant. Councilman wants.

[31:54] >> So can you share a little bit more about why they're intertwined? You mention that

[31:59] this is the way that it is. And I guess I'm trying to understand. Getting money from

[32:06] the in spots, closure through attrition, somehow intertwined with library safety

[32:13] specialists being in the general fund. Like help me understand how. Where's the

[32:19] swap and what is actually share proposed I don't know if this chart.

[32:23] >> so right now you'll see the chart of the 2027 budget proposal and you'll see that

[32:30] some of those positions are ongoing. 3 were ongoing. These others are only one time

[32:36] funding. And so how this is intertwined with the book Library is I you heard me

[32:44] mention before the date if the Dayton's Bluff Library close as my staff will lose their

[32:50] positions. But so those positions will be absorbed back into the library system.

[32:56] But over time through attrition, those positions would be converted into

[33:00] library safety specialist on a permanent basis. Not the people but the money for those

[33:06] positions. >> And then as a follow-up. Does that affect change if the

[33:14] remains open to those staff? Not still have the same type you know, isues the reason

[33:22] why they would would not remain the same. >> C Jones Councilmember

[33:29] Johnson, just to be clear, it has nothing to do with the individuals at Dayton's bluff.

[33:33] It has to do with attrition. So >> in any given year in any

[33:39] department, people or retire or do anything like that. And so then we have a vacancy. So

[33:45] were we to have a vacancy? I would repurpose that into a library safety specialist. so

[33:53] it. So I just want to be clear if Dayton's bluff, where to stay open, I don't have a path

[33:59] way for permanent funding of my library safety special us. I know it's super complex and

[34:05] is an example of multi-year funding, which I know that this body and then there are

[34:09] really interested in. But. >> But what's to keep with that because I know it's

[34:15] confusing. >> Yeah, because like one of the questions that I ask that

[34:16] you shared that we budget systemically, we don't. We're systematically we don't budget

[34:21] individual. My very wise because when asked the question around, how much

[34:26] money we spend a library. Could you provide the budgets for what we spend use library?

[34:29] The response I got was we didn't we don't budget per library budget systematically.

[34:35] And so I'm wondering. How in this case only budgeting specific today's and not

[34:41] systematically around the staffing for systems for library specialists being that

[34:45] they special a service, the entire system. That's right. But we're asking today both

[34:51] library to solve for the budget impacts of the library safety specialists. Despite

[34:55] not having women on their site. And my understanding is not necessarily having a

[34:58] permit. One place on the east side. >> Conservatives and I'm not

[35:02] sure I'm understanding your question. You might need to install sliders specifically.

[35:08] The budget for the library is being used to fix a systemic problem. But we don't tend to

[35:11] budget. >> Systematically some just wondering how do we get like

[35:17] how do we get there a solution? >> I think help. I think what

[35:24] >> is this what Director Herman saying? Is that because so the library says you

[35:29] specialists have a multi-year funding challenge >> the lease and these other

[35:35] cars that the Danes Book Library or what are being proposed being cut.

[35:37] >> So so the library safety specialists in the teens, library on the list of choices

[35:44] for places that cuts could be made. I don't believe that library safety specialists as

[35:50] a system wide service are tied specifically to any library like the teens left labor,

[35:55] which I think is council Johnson is getting it. >> So thank you, Chair Joe all

[36:02] stick with it. You are right as a library system we do at budget individually by

[36:11] library. Our staff belong to the whole system and they're signed to Branch S right. So

[36:17] when I have this budget, Dayton's bluff is proposed to close. And so there will be

[36:25] staff savings from that. And there is also a multi-year funding challenge for safety

[36:33] specialist at the system level that that is how they are intertwined. So we're Dayton's

[36:41] bluff to be to not close. Then that's great for But then I have a longer-term funding

[36:50] sustainability challenge for for my safety specialists that based on the proposed budget

[36:53] in front of us. I mean, thank In the proposed budget, one feeds the other. It does not

[37:02] have to. But in the proposed budget, that is how race. >> Thank you. Come summer

[37:06] camp. >> A nice safety specialist we have right now. And are there

[37:11] any positions vacant? >> We have 7 safety specialist right now. And I believe we

[37:16] have one vacancy. >> And I the one thing I'll just point out and then I you

[37:21] can keep. Keep going your side can go back to the safety special. this is going next.

[37:31] If may be on the for that, if we were to find, you know, we do have a multi-year funding

[37:37] need here. Should we find another path for sustainable funding for library safety

[37:44] specialists that would help. So tat would be one way to solve the issue of the. The

[37:53] cost for are the cost savings of the Dayton Lbrary for 2027 S potentially. Chair Jones.

[38:03] >> Yes, thanks for simplifying a complicated thing. As you can see in the poposed

[38:08] budget. I have my needs met for 2027, but I do not have a need that for 4 of the 7

[38:17] safety specialist beyond 2027. >> I know right now we are in a year by year budget process.

[38:25] But I also have been asked by the mayor and also this body is to think about our needs on

[38:31] a multi-year. >> Laval. And so that's what this chart attempts to do. It

[38:33] attempts to find a way through that does plant them on to the operating budget at one

[38:41] >> And basically there's this is again oly based on the mayor's proposed budget and

[38:47] the legend goes, but it there. So there could multiple different pathway is too

[38:54] finding alternative sources for library safety specialist funding sources for the lease

[38:57] for the Danes both library in those costs. But this is all just based on the proposed

[39:01] budget cuts in front of us. And we'll keep going. And just in a quick, yes, time check

[39:08] your We've got 20 or so minutes left on to other reductions to bring to your

[39:16] attention. >> We're taking an attrition reduction and attrition

[39:17] reduction means that the hold positions more Bay Kent. is about the same rate that we

[39:23] help this year in 2025. >> And we are doing OK, so. I move on to higher priority.

[39:30] Things were OK. >> We are also you'll also see a shift of partial library

[39:35] materials funding to a special fund. >> And that accounts for the

[39:39] revenue that I'm going to talk about right here. So lot to make a long story. Short

[39:45] revenue for the library, like how much you pay for printing or copying comes in through

[39:48] our special funds. you'll also see in this proposed budget, a onetime investment and updated

[39:55] this account. Technology across all library locations. Right now. It's a very manual

[40:02] Just be clear. We do a way to count people that come through our doors. It's like a click

[40:06] or thing. And yeah, our staff go and look at it, right. on a piece of paper. Our e-mail it

[40:13] over. I'm looking for an investment and real-time technology there so that we

[40:18] are better so that we could actually tracked by location by our by day of the week,

[40:24] which location where what locations are busy when think it's a really important thing

[40:29] for us to be able to know and we don't have the ability to do that right now. You'll also

[40:35] see the increase here, the library alone cannot. >> So all the cities increase

[40:40] in revenue challenges, but but we also recognize we want to do our part black and white

[40:46] copies and prince for proposing increasing from $0.15 to $0.20 per page.

[40:51] Notary service is proposing increasing from a dollar per transaction to $2 per

[40:57] transaction. our staff are working to pilot a project to charge for professional posed

[41:04] George Latimer said library after hours. History of our budget to actual is that we

[41:13] are always under budget. >> library culture, as all of you know, is one of fllowing

[41:22] the rules. And so I would ask you to know the difference here. That is all.

[41:28] >> I think okay. think that's a really important point to make. I I want to also bring

[41:37] up the when the library doesn't spend It's budgeted amount at the end of the year.

[41:42] Whatever's left over goes into our library fund balance. We have our own library fund

[41:46] balance because we are live separate library agency and we have our own levee and so.

[41:53] It's my understanding question for Ms Mitchell tat we also have a library fund balance

[41:57] right now of close to 9 million dollars. and that in the past has been sometimes a

[42:03] way that we have used one-time funding to be able to support needs one time, but it's very

[42:11] challenging because the library fund balance is also part of the General Fund

[42:14] balance. And we have a general fund balance policy that needs that needs to be at least 15%.

[42:22] that impacts our AAA bond rating impact that cost the city more money to borrow

[42:26] money. And so as Director Hermann also just mention, as we're looking at budget to

[42:31] actuals ad the library has continued to the great, you know, fiscal fiscally

[42:38] responsible by under spending. That's not the case with a lot of oher departments. Some

[42:41] departments continueto overspend. And so we're in the situation where the library

[42:45] has a large fund balance. Fortunately, and that money has to be used to help some

[42:52] other issues with the rest of the general fund, which I'll say makes make some of the

[42:57] problems we're facing here. Very, very frustrating when we're looking at the cuts of a

[43:03] library that are being proposed. And that's the situation that we're in. I

[43:08] don't a special. Can you share anything else about the fund balance to got it all Okay.

[43:16] Councilman, thank you, chair. Can I just ask a clarifying question?

[43:20] >> Did in fact $913,000 from 2025. Go to the Library fund balance.

[43:26] >> That the full total of that. The $913,351 didn't go to the library fund balance.

[43:37] Chair Johnson Councilmember excuse me, chair just Johnson. >> And 25 members are

[43:44] unaudited. So I'm not sure where land once we finish all of our final entries. But that

[43:48] is what would happen that is the final number at the end, often trees are done work.

[43:55] >> OK, so fr 2024, them out. The went to the fund balance was 170,000 for 2023. It was

[44:03] 713. >> And so forth, counselor. Yes, the other side of this,

[44:07] it isn't showing is the revenue. So it's it's the net between spending and revenue

[44:12] library revenues, I believe usually come in pretty close to budget. So I wouldn't

[44:16] expect there to be huge variance there. So I would I would think that for each of

[44:20] those in in general range and then as a just a follow-up and something to note here.

[44:27] >> I'm also looking at the 2026 numbers. And I know that there on on it it and we go

[44:32] into those spaces. But justice. Sharing that. >> How much again, as the

[44:37] total for LeBron specialists. That are like the total amount per library specialists 100.

[44:46] It's practically $110,000. >> Okay. And so budget for for what you're short for library

[44:54] specialist. So about 4.40, is that accurate? >> For 40 plus 2.70. Just

[44:59] doing basic map is lower than 113,000 that we return to library fund balance. And I

[45:05] just want to share that. I a concerned what? And this presumed issue with holding

[45:16] the in Spotify very in operation and maintain library. Specialist, it seems

[45:20] a little interesting to me that for the last consecutive. 3 budget cycles prior to this

[45:25] one. We've had. A quarter of a million dollars or more in the budget Fund for the fund

[45:32] balance that we currently operate that currently holds 9 million dollars in it. I am

[45:39] really interested in knowing 2026. Ends up being being that this number was pulled in

[45:45] August 24th. I know it's not audited. Know. There's a lot of things that go into it. But

[45:48] there's only 3 months left of the year. And so I am curious if we will actually spend 10.5

[45:54] million dollars and the next 3 months because the format, then I actually would

[45:59] encourage my colleagues to really think about that number, because do we need to

[46:05] cut back in a million dollars into the library fund balances? Can we save

[46:07] Dance-pop library can we find library specialists? Because I think to this, you know, piece

[46:13] for me, this was actually a slide that I thought was really important because it

[46:17] gives the reality is that we Arsene that I think the stink in different departments so

[46:22] often in departments with a cop and talk about budget cuts, they are operating from

[46:25] a deficit ad the library budget particular. We do not have that same issue showing

[46:30] up in the budget to actuals the variances to pay atention to. And we're proposing a

[46:36] budget possibly for an actual budget problem that does not exist. If we are able to be

[46:42] able to carry over finding anyway or even just allocate with the decision that quite

[46:46] literally we get to make, which is that library fund balance transfer may happen

[46:50] but does not have to happen. And I think that's one of the questions that I have for us

[46:56] as we think about it. Because again, the savings from this is 270,000. That amount of

[47:01] money that is needed to be falling for next year is also less combined than the total

[47:05] various that we had from 2025. And that was a weird year. And so looking into this year. The

[47:13] trend increasing. So I'm just looking at the trends, looking at the patterns and simply

[47:17] identifying that. I don't actually think there's a budget issue And so that's

[47:20] something that I want to share for you all as your consideration. Yeah, come

[47:25] Summer. Johnson, thanks for bringing that up. That number also jumped out at me. I think

[47:28] it's it's my understanding and and you can correct me. But they're still.

[47:31] >> A few months of payroll to be cut up on and some payments that only come through at the

[47:35] end of the year. But to Councilmember Johnson's Point Library does continue to

[47:39] understand its budget every year. The money. I think we did use some of that money for

[47:44] transferring libraries in the past before it went into the fund balance the fund balance

[47:49] money in the library can only be used for the libraries, but its also my understanding at

[47:53] the end of the year that the library and are spending gets compared to all the other

[47:58] departments and some of the over spending. And sometimes that money is used to offset.

[48:02] The entire budget at the end of the year. And so that's the other thing is like we. It is

[48:09] it is in our best interest to spend the money. If we this year.

[48:15] >> We certainly are trying our best. Yeah. And that's but but yeah, that's what's very

[48:19] frustrating. It's just that this is the library's money, but it's the news. To offset

[48:26] other departments. And that's why sometimes we don't always have all this money left over

[48:30] because we needed to balance the budget at the end of the year. And sometimes that's

[48:33] because of, you know, whether it's the cybersecurity attack. You know, the police

[48:38] department continues to overspend their budget and things like that. And that's

[48:40] what puts us in quite a bind. I will go to council member council vice-president Yang.

[48:51] Councilmember Coleman. Did you have an alert? Was a fallen about okay. It occasion. You

[48:57] have a view of customer Johnson contest putting inconsolable.

[48:59] >> And just to carify, we signed the lease for Metro State University under

[49:04] suspension as a council action last month. >> So we're looking at just

[49:08] the contract and actually the contract years, cutting a check to Metro State to

[49:12] protect our lease. And this year as of this year expenses, a doable thing that we can do.

[49:17] But I have to wait to January one, 2027 2 to pay that the Metro State University for our

[49:22] lease. So just to be clear, we signed a three-year lease with Metro State under suspension

[49:27] of the council. That's an active think that we have now this would actually be Alice

[49:32] preach. So just wanted to share from fiscal year to fiscal year, doesn't operate

[49:36] in the same fiscal year that we have. >> Thank you. Council votes

[49:43] it. Thanks, for some thank you, doctor, having for your presentation today.

[49:48] >> know that it's and I definitely feel what you're sharing what you should the

[49:53] beginning about it being a really tough presentation. >> I do want to get my

[49:57] thoughts. And before the meeting and switches that I'm not supportive of the closure

[50:00] of the day and Spotify, very. >> There is not an alternate about all that for increasing

[50:06] library services for the neighborhood. And I mentioned at the table here, if we were

[50:11] to do something really drastic a big like this, it must come. It was the married with a plan

[50:16] on how we do ensure, especially they carry it committees of communities that

[50:22] are marginalized areas, areas, country poverty in low-income families, working class

[50:26] families to continue to have that access. know that every single year we always have the

[50:32] same conversation about library fund balance. They want to bring that up because

[50:34] I think this is my 7th council probably my 7th year hearing about over and over again. And

[50:42] I can't say enough how like Arsenal, public libraries has really been the one carrying

[50:46] the heavy load when it comes to eating putting dollars into the fund balance overall. And

[50:51] I really believe it's time for us to create major wins for library system. I want that.

[50:57] And so I wanted to express as you know, my commitment in making strides toward that

[51:05] this year and wanted to just really calling all of us on the board here to continue

[51:07] doing that, too. I believe these these cuts that you've had to have do and just even

[51:18] come up with the we don't need at And we can definitely find us all for Even if it doesn't

[51:23] come from the Very fund You all as my colleagues have heard me talk a lot about

[51:28] early justification of TIF districts, which I'm very supportive of of all of them

[51:34] really. And and so I just want to continue like bringing in that spirit of hope and

[51:38] opportunities for us. And instead of like continue to keep us trapped in this

[51:42] conversation aound scarcity overall. I I just hopeful and I will continue sharing that

[51:51] out and again, want express I'm not supportive of the closure and wanted to just let

[51:56] you know, cover Johnson that I'm a I'm here as a partner with you in that work can

[52:02] thank you as well for being an advocate for Eastside Last I just noticed that there isn't

[52:07] anything around the library collections and the slides here. So last year, I did sure

[52:11] that I'm not supportive of us using cultural star money as one time funding for library

[52:18] collections. I've even heard from star board members who are very oposed to the idea

[52:20] of continue to do that. >> Wanted to just reiterate where my stances on it. And so

[52:24] is there any sort of proposal at all for library collections and where that money would

[52:30] come from. >> And Joe's Cuncilmember Yang, it's in the And it's

[52:38] page. 33 that illustrates the council invest Vance in the past and what the amount

[52:48] needed in 2027 would be in order to get to that. >> 15% keeping our spending

[52:58] power level. >> I defer any conversations about what that spending

[53:02] source would be to to all of you. I don't have a. >> I don't have a single one.

[53:07] OK? Thank you. I didn't see that slight. Yeah. I didn't see like you know what,

[53:10] basically the plan for next year would be to increase the. >> Dollars for that's yeah. I

[53:15] that all. OK, thank you, OK? So we have cause for Common Council. President maker

[53:22] director have in Tulsa still have. >> Maybe 5 or 6 more slides

[53:27] after this. So I have us into your question ask you questions. I think them let's

[53:33] go through the presentation and then. Maybe we'll end up with a few minutes left at the

[53:37] end. If that's alright council. >> Thank you. Chair of quickly

[53:42] pick up on the theme hope and optimism from Councilmember As I do think that very clear

[53:48] that there's no interest in on this board in closing that will fly brain. I think it's

[53:52] just a question of what is the mechanism that we use to make sure we have the funding. But

[53:56] it feels like a nonstarter. From my perspective Tony, appreciate that. You know, you

[54:03] have to present the budget as it is and also really grateful that we have this point. That

[54:05] is. That is going to do whatever it takes to save the library because we know how

[54:09] absolutely essential it is. With that in mind, I just have them turn understand

[54:13] mechanisms that we might be able to explore. Section in question is for Miss Mitchell

[54:18] because they don't have 7 years of talking about fund balance.

[54:23] >> Can you 6 Is it legal requirement that all of the if we were to say when everybody

[54:28] is left at the end of 2026, were put into it to the library 2027. We want that

[54:34] rollover that law that we changed resolution is that we can't change. But with that

[54:37] look like technically. >> Chair, just counselor Johnson, thank you for the

[54:44] question of first. I want to correct something that I said What decide that we shot saw

[54:49] had just the spending side. I have some other information here that I'm looking at that

[54:54] show the actual contributions and Yusuf amount in the last few years fr 2025. The

[55:01] country to library fund balance. Once we factor in revenue in all of their sort

[55:05] of like very technical accounting things. The country is actually 68,000 and then in

[55:12] 2024, it was actually a use of fund balance of 120,000. And then in 2023 in this, I don't

[55:16] have details on what this was, but it was a it was a higher contribution close to

[55:23] 2 Million. So I'm not really sure what the variance is there. more more details. We

[55:27] can dig into the details on. And 23 in particular. But this is only sort of what less than

[55:33] half of the of the Equation for Fund balance. There's an adopted policy around the fund

[55:42] balance percent that we have to maintain a city. >> And that's 15%. And as

[55:46] chair just mentioned, the library is is a portion of that. The Library General Fund

[55:50] in the City General Fund combines need to be 15% of the next year's adopted budget. So

[55:59] that's that's a challenge for us every year. And just the way that that policy is set up

[56:02] because every yar the adopted budget grows. So for us to even maintain that, a

[56:08] percentage with the denominator growing, we need to be contributing to fund

[56:12] balance every year to stay at or above the 15% now say the 15% is. Is low. Like that's

[56:18] our like minimum. I minimum percent and actually like cities of our size, usually

[56:24] target 20 to 30%. So coming in at 16, 17% is pretty low for us.

[56:31] >> I'm not sure if there is a legal. >> Requirement around served

[56:39] way that things get a count. It I I believe that it's just sort of a natural accounting

[56:42] function that the funds unspent in the library fund remain in the library fund.

[56:49] but I mean, they're they're certainly accessible in a number of of ways. We can. Do

[56:55] budget amendments that access use of fund balance. It's not sort of like totally wild off.

[57:00] That sort of answer question. Do. That's president. Thanks to just that 2 comments from

[57:08] the question. First of all, in response to that information that you just shared a

[57:11] special, I have to say it's really discouraging to see this information be shared

[57:15] with us to advance presented here and then to have that context that you're referring

[57:19] to from something we haven't seen. >> This body can only make

[57:23] decisions that are as good as the information presented and that this slide should not

[57:27] have been presented to us without that additional information is misleading.

[57:32] It's erroneous and it leads us to a line of questioning that. Is not backed up by the data

[57:38] that you're talking about, that we haven't seen so I just think Herschel information is

[57:43] similar to misinformation. We have to know the rest of what you're talking about. And I

[57:46] just really want to ask double down and particular as you're reviewing department sides,

[57:50] please make sure that we have full information and and that we're not talking about things

[57:56] that are that backed by additional data. We haven't seen that's one thing.

[58:02] Secondly, I do want to say director at to the vice president's question about

[58:06] materials, budget. I'm disappointed to see that it seems like since we passed

[58:09] resolution of this body saying that we would be keeping purchasing power, constant

[58:15] year-over-year in the labor materials budget that the base budget for materials has gne

[58:19] down. The goal of that resolution wasn't to give ourselves an obligation to

[58:24] fill a larger and larger gap every year because the base budget that's been proposed is

[58:28] decreasing. But to really put the onus on the library for library director and

[58:32] departments to present to the board a materials. But they keep pace with inflation. And

[58:36] it's all for that. And to the vice president's point, I think any of us 20's, cultural

[58:42] star won $10 to make up gap. But it seems like every year the base budget is getting

[58:46] smaller. And so that gap of what it would take would is really growing. so happy to

[58:53] hear your thoughts on that. And then my question relates to and I agree with Ms

[58:57] Coleman, Johnson, everyone around this table. I don't think there's interest because

[59:00] the close in the but library and wondering what conversations we've had with

[59:03] Metro State about the lease about the terms of the lease at it seems that the full cost

[59:09] of this is truly. The lease arrangement that we have and it is surprising that we just

[59:14] signed a new lease a couple weeks ago when this was being considered or proposed

[59:19] wondering what we've discussed with them. Chair council president maker. I'm just sort

[59:30] of respectfully. >> response to your question about needing to make sure we

[59:32] have the actual information from >> This is a council provided

[59:38] time flat. So we're going to need ask ahead of time in order to provide you with the

[59:42] information that you seek this in this Templet is about a variance, not about what

[59:48] remains in the library fund balance so we do a better job. But only if we know what your

[59:54] questions are ahead of time. And in the I'm just wanting to work together. But also I

[1:00:00] don't think fair when that complaint provided to us. Ahead of time, we're doing

[1:00:05] what we can with wat you've asked Tester provide. So very, truly respectfully. It's just

[1:00:11] I know that continues to come up and we're doing the best with what you've provided to

[1:00:15] us. All the difference. >> OK, I we have 4 minutes until a jury is supposed to

[1:00:21] start and I have a line of questions from folks and I know we still 5 or 6 more

[1:00:28] slide. So I guess Jones and you want us to keep sorry. I just hve to respectfully as

[1:00:33] the chair of the Budget Committee to create a template. On Friday when

[1:00:40] lights were given. You had a direct question about the fund balance. And so, you know,

[1:00:45] director, it was there was question that was matching our norms and our council process

[1:00:50] for how to give those to you. needed respond to my office with I nodded financials that

[1:00:58] I could easily out in this conversation, but I'm choosing not to regards to ongoing

[1:01:04] offload competition offline. >> But yeah, I mean, like in reality, I asked those

[1:01:10] questions to Miss Mitchell, knowing in some places that I could continue to move forward

[1:01:13] about the slide. >> The site itself looks factual. The question is how

[1:01:18] much money got into the fund balance, which does differ substantially. So the question

[1:01:24] remains where that money go. So 913,000 from 2025, is unspent in your budget and it

[1:01:29] did not hit the fund balance. The question remains firm for office. Word of that call. And

[1:01:34] so that's the question that's given to you. But I just want to respectfully share with you

[1:01:36] that. We did send it to you and we did send it to ahead of time. I asked specific

[1:01:41] question. It was chosen not to be added to the slide on the slide deck. That was a choice.

[1:01:47] And so I just want to share that with and full transparency because I have my

[1:01:50] email that I study. 21 questions on Friday I did not see your slides into event.

[1:01:58] So, you know, Iappreciate the Templet I do not respect sharing temp. What is the

[1:02:02] reason that you're not able to ask a question that answer a question that was given to you

[1:02:08] and that maybe isn't related to just you. That's what it to the information that we

[1:02:11] receive. But I just wanted to correct that because we have been talking tough and on

[1:02:17] specifically the decision to not include te fund balance information regarding it was a

[1:02:22] choice. counselor. Just I just I I was in the library preview meeting a few days ago. We did

[1:02:26] talk about the library fund balance. I think that with. The Library fund numbers, some

[1:02:32] of them being an audited and things like that. That's why they were put into

[1:02:36] >> publicly into this presentation. I think also that the I know that you did

[1:02:42] ask a lot of questions and we do have Templet that we send in advance. I do agree that if

[1:02:49] could follow up with more detail on the amount of money put into the fund be helpful

[1:02:55] and I know sometimes we have deviated from the budget. 10 point, but it does take time

[1:02:59] to pull that information together. And so I don't I don't think that it was

[1:03:04] intentional, not providing information that think that's what's happening here. Think

[1:03:07] that it's takes time to build up those things together. Accurately, especially when

[1:03:10] we're talking about, you know, finances that can be that having that. did to make sure

[1:03:17] that accurate iformation is provided and that staff has a reasonable amount of time. I

[1:03:23] do not over the weekend to have to pull those things together. I think Councilman

[1:03:29] Jones we do have to start charity. 2 o'clock. Is that correct? Yes, OK, so you want?

[1:03:33] So I guess we should probably wrap up here I know there are a few more slides. Give

[1:03:42] anything you want to say a like Start to end. On that note. I just I really respect

[1:03:49] this body respect the work that we're trying to do together.

[1:03:53] >> also just we're gonna have to keep working. >> Respectfully together

[1:03:59] forward. And it's my job to work with both you and and as well. And I stand ready to

[1:04:04] provide you with any information. >> And look forward to

[1:04:07] continuing t support libraries. And thank you for that.

[1:04:11] >> Thank you. Well, tis is a big discussion. I know we didn't get to get to all of

[1:04:15] these slides today. And I thought that that might be the case. So please follow up with

[1:04:19] questions. You can include assure itself and mood and we'll try to get them

[1:04:21] answered. I just want to say in closing, you know, I hear what folks are saying at the

[1:04:27] table as we're talking with the closure of the library. That's very painful. It's

[1:04:31] difficult. I do agree that I don't think that there is appetite at this table to move

[1:04:37] forward with a budget that includes the closure of the Dayton spoke library. All say

[1:04:42] that I fully committed. I've appreciated working in partnership with customer

[1:04:45] Johnson with all of you and a matter of what the set look like and I'll say that I am

[1:04:51] supportive of a variety of different ways that we can do that. Whether you know, we do

[1:04:56] have our own levee power here at the library. We can have our own levee that we can

[1:04:59] control. We can consider raising it. We have a lot of information to explore both

[1:05:03] the library fund balance or unspent dollars. We might have alternative ways to be able to

[1:05:11] fund the library safety specialist, whether it's within the libraries are even

[1:05:15] considering being creative in considering the police budget. They provide public safety.

[1:05:18] Are there ways that we might feel the support that that would really? I think the more

[1:05:24] was that are more equitable and more fair when we're looking at the ways that the

[1:05:27] library budget is disproportionately impacted relative to other departments.

[1:05:32] So I'm open to any and all options. I appreciate the discussion today and I know

[1:05:36] that we have big challenge ahead of us, but I confident that we'll be able to come up

[1:05:39] with solutions so view and the best interest of everyone. So thank you all of you. Thank

[1:05:44] you to Director Hartman and thank you to all the staff that put so much effort in

[1:05:48] appreciated. And with that, we are adjourned

Library Board on 2026-09-02 1:00 PM

Agenda

Transcript