[8:09] welcome to our Q. the whole meeting of Thursday July

[8:13] the fifteenth now before we get begin this morning I'd

[8:16] like to begin with an acknowledgment of the Lekwungen homelands

[8:20] that we are on today ... and ... I had

[8:24] a meeting of the regional mayors we gather once a

[8:27] month ... and many of them we had all been

[8:30] at the ... by invitation of the chiefs on Friday

[8:34] at the Songhees wellness centre ... to stand with the

[8:37] chiefs as they reflected on ... the vandalism that's been

[8:41] taking place in our community and ... at our mayors

[8:44] meeting on Tuesday many of the mers indicated that as

[8:47] part of their territorially knowledge and at the beginning of

[8:50] their meetings that they had read the chief statement and

[8:52] so I'd like to do that ... this morning as

[8:55] well as our territorial acknowledgement

[8:58] so this is from all of the chiefs ... in

[9:00] the South Island and they've written hi dear South Island

[9:03] community members and beyond

[9:06] we are writing you in the United voice of nations

[9:09] to share our perspective on the recent events in the

[9:11] South Island and beyond and to spread hope that we

[9:14] can work together for change and a safer community

[9:19] these events are brought violence and vandalism to our region

[9:22] and communities the damaging of property including statues and totem

[9:25] poles is unacceptable we are all residents of this region

[9:30] and we need to respect each other

[9:32] we are leaders of the South Island indigenous communities and

[9:36] these acts are not ours we do not support them

[9:39] and we do not believe in dividing communities

[9:42] these acts are not medicine the fuel hate and inhibit

[9:45] the healing that is so deeply needed right now the

[9:48] disrespectful and damaging acts we have seen are not helping

[9:52] they're perpetuating hurt hate and divide

[9:57] these actions go against our teachings and are not reflective

[10:00] on how we have been taught to carry ourselves as

[10:03] a collective we feel the need to step in before

[10:06] things continue on a destructive path

[10:09] we are writing this letter because we need to work

[10:11] together towards the goals that strengthen our community and bonds

[10:14] with each other

[10:16] we ask all residents of southern Vancouver Island and beyond

[10:20] to join us on the road to healing

[10:23] we need to walk together supporting each other and demonstrate

[10:27] humanity

[10:28] we honor those that have stood with us those who

[10:31] are our allies and those who have listened and supported

[10:34] us

[10:35] all vandalism must stop immediately let us lock arms walk

[10:40] together and look out for one another

[10:43] please do not lose sight of the young ones that

[10:46] we are honoring and please listen to our elders and

[10:49] survivors in friendship Songhees nation Esquimalt nation Beecher bay first

[10:54] nation soak nation Malahat first nation say what First Nations

[10:59] starlet first nation pop which in first nation and say

[11:01] come first nation

[11:03] so that is our territorial acknowledgement today bringing the voices

[11:06] of the chiefs are right into our into our meeting

[11:10] ... I need a motion to approve today's agenda thank

[11:14] you councillor Loveday seconded by councillor Thornton Joe does anyone

[11:17] wish to pull anything from the consent agenda

[11:21] okay seeing nothing pulled ... just to give council a

[11:24] heads up ... I will be leaving at the meeting

[11:27] from ten fifteen until eleven fifteen hopefully no longer ...

[11:32] to attend announcement today with the federal minister of transportation

[11:36] and I have a speaking role I I tried to

[11:38] say that I have a council meeting I can't come

[11:40] but ... that didn't fly so I will be going

[11:42] ... councillor Dubow is acting mayor for July so he

[11:45] will be in the chair ... and ... and then

[11:47] I'll be back after that ... yes councillor Isitt regarding

[11:51] the the agenda ... I did research to see if

[11:54] some feedback in relation to U. one from some members

[11:57] of the citizens working group that was involved in the

[12:00] villages in corridors process ... I'm wondering if staff can

[12:04] just confirm when they notified members of that steering committee

[12:08] that this item was on the agenda

[12:21] through mayor helps I believe that email was sent out

[12:24] earlier this week to the working group

[12:27] thank you the feedback I've heard is that because of

[12:30] the very extensive work in the level of detail in

[12:32] the pandas appendices that some members felt they hadn't had

[12:36] sufficient time to properly review the materials in advance of

[12:41] this item coming to the committee so I'm wondering whether

[12:44] it might make sense to postpone consideration of U. one

[12:47] for one week ... it is a pretty ... important

[12:52] process for the for the neighborhoods involved ... I also

[12:56] reached out to the neighborhood where I serve as the

[12:58] liaison and ... the leads in that neighborhoods is away

[13:03] this week and have not had a chance reviewing the

[13:05] materials because I was hoping to get a temperature check

[13:07] on whether this initiative was ready to move forward or

[13:10] not the next stage and I would have more comfort

[13:13] so I think I'll try to be as an amendment

[13:16] to see where council lands I'd like to move the

[13:19] item you want to move to the July twenty second

[13:22] committee of the whole agenda

[13:24] it is K. seconded by councillor Dubow okay Levi largely

[13:27] motivated ... this is a multi year process and I

[13:32] think we do have to where it's already very expedited

[13:36] the some preliminary feedback I'm getting ... but I think

[13:39] given it's the summer months and my understanding is that

[13:42] check steering group members were notified on Tuesday they pointed

[13:46] out that many of them have ... employment outside of

[13:49] the volunteer duties on civic issues and they felt that

[13:54] they would have more comfort reviewing the materials and being

[13:56] able to provide ... comment to council a prior ...

[14:02] if there was a bit more time so ... it's

[14:04] council decide how to proceed okay thank you councillor Dubow

[14:08] as a seconder and I'd like to speak in the

[14:09] local councillor Loveday

[14:11] I I think is a war so in and the

[14:15] public most time to delve I don't have more understanding

[14:19] so that they feel trusted the process thank you ...

[14:24] I I'd I don't think that we should postpone this

[14:26] for two reasons one is we have a very

[14:30] ... carefully organized the agendas between now and August fifth

[14:34] are there is a lot that is going to be

[14:36] coming to us and if we stock this ... up

[14:39] ... we're we're going to have that as potentially unmanageable

[14:44] agendas but secondly ... this is just committee and I

[14:47] think the process that we have ... is this won't

[14:50] come to council until two weeks from today so that

[14:53] they'll be lots of time for members of the public

[14:55] to read the reports share their thoughts and for council

[14:58] to make any adjustments based on that feedback so the

[15:00] fact that this is a committee presentation and we've got

[15:03] staff here today ... and organize the agenda in order

[15:06] to hear from staff and and make some preliminary decisions

[15:08] that committee ... means that they're still two weeks more

[15:11] for people to give us feedback before you make a

[15:13] decision so for that reason I think we should proceed

[15:15] today ... and they'll be lots of time for public

[15:18] input before we make a decision that council councillor Loveday

[15:22] yeah I'm wondering about a

[15:25] sort of something in between those two where we would

[15:29] receive the presentation and ask any questions today and maybe

[15:32] after ... we for motions is I think the majority

[15:36] of the time will probably be on the questions I'd

[15:39] just a alternate proposal where we could maybe do some

[15:44] agenda management but also week to have the debate until

[15:47] after we've received the the input okay I that's a

[15:51] good suggestion ... so I then I would propose defeating

[15:53] the motion to postpone this until next week's meeting ...

[15:57] there is a lot of material just to digest today

[16:00] so we could and that actually would probably help the

[16:02] public because in in addition to just write reading the

[16:04] reports they can watch the staff presentations they can here

[16:07] are questions and then we can have the discussion about

[16:10] the motion next Thursday I think that's a good suggestion

[16:12] and that will probably help the public I just materials

[16:14] as well yes councillor Isitt

[16:17] it could be a procedurally it does require a bit

[16:19] of a leap of faith of council members who favor

[16:22] postponements to hope the majority will essentially vote to postpone

[16:26] after the staff presentation but I guess I'm prepared to

[16:30] take that leap of faith

[16:32] thank you very much also known as trust okay councillor

[16:36] Andrew

[16:38] just to give the mover systems ... comfort hi ...

[16:42] support tech councillor Loveday says suggestion as to why there

[16:47] we go okay perfect all right so all those in

[16:50] favor of postponing this until next week all those opposed

[16:54] okay very good thank you for raising that good good

[16:57] ... resolution of that issue ... any further proposed changes

[17:00] to the agenda

[17:02] okay seeing none all those in favor any opposed none

[17:06] opposed that carries first order of business is to approve

[17:09] the consent agenda thanks counter although seconded by councillor Andrew

[17:13] up for members of the public when we put items

[17:15] on the consent agenda it means they will not be

[17:17] discussed at our committee today but forwarded either to today's

[17:21] council meeting of their time sensitive or to a two

[17:23] weeks hence if they are not all those in favor

[17:26] of the consent agenda any opposed okay so now we're

[17:30] going to move on to village and quarter planning phase

[17:32] one ... there are there's a lot of information here

[17:36] ... and I think that this it would be great

[17:39] to ... go through and then spend time kind of

[17:44] neighborhood by neighborhood so I I don't know how the

[17:48] staff presentations organized but maybe we can here ... vote

[17:52] at the general presentation and then feels like water and

[17:55] then for and what in the north park and just

[17:56] stop and dive into each of those neighbourhoods as we

[17:59] go ... and then as you heard I think council's

[18:01] preferences to to gather information today to have the presentations

[18:05] but then to postpone consideration of the actual motions until

[18:08] next Thursday for reasons stated so I am going to

[18:11] welcome you both and turn it over to you

[18:15] thank you and good morning mayor and members of council

[18:17] my name is Marc Cittone senior planner and community planning

[18:21] within today's Lauren close also senior planner with the planning

[18:24] and I'll be providing a ... somewhat brief presentation on

[18:27] the local area planning process for hillside Quadra friend with

[18:30] the north park neighborhood so we appreciate the staff that

[18:33] there is a lot of material being brought forward and

[18:35] we will do that our best to summarize the key

[18:38] points and answer any questions we can

[18:44] but the purpose sorry

[18:50] okay

[18:52] the purpose of this report is to summarize engagement and

[18:55] analysis from the last second stage of it public engagement

[18:59] to summarize the proposed planning and design directions these are

[19:02] not finalized directions but rather ... what has been proposed

[19:07] for the next round of consultation with the public and

[19:10] to seek directions for that next phase of engagement

[19:19] we believe we're now at a point in the process

[19:21] we were ready to provide draft neighbourhood plans to the

[19:24] community for their review and comment this follows two rounds

[19:28] of public engagement involving over two thousand participants and thousands

[19:32] more who dropped into virtually or in person over the

[19:35] past two years

[19:40] 50

[19:42] I'm going to provide a bit of a summary of

[19:43] the second phase of engagement from fall twenty twenty through

[19:46] March twenty twenty one this was one of our most

[19:49] substantial engagements the city held during covert in which we

[19:53] pioneered new approaches to at and learned a lot along

[19:57] the way it also incorporated a more robust approach to

[20:00] equity and representation consistent with the terms for this project

[20:04] as well as the emerging equity framework

[20:08] building on early engagement which started pre covert the city

[20:10] embarked on virtual planning workshops in lieu of a traditional

[20:13] in person workshop for sure at this gave us the

[20:16] chance to work with a diverse group of community members

[20:19] to develop concepts for broader engagement

[20:26] this was followed by in a primarily virtual engagement process

[20:30] spanning December to March of this year sixty four hundred

[20:34] people engaged with our online content of which two thousand

[20:37] people ... explored online resources watch videos and over six

[20:42] hundred took surveys this was paralleled with focus groups and

[20:46] virtual meetings which allowed us to reach a broad cross

[20:49] section of the community and included a focus on equity

[20:51] seeking populations

[20:54] a community led planning also occurred with for example in

[20:57] north park neighborhood association survey garnering almost two hundred responses

[21:02] and an equity study and public land study submitted by

[21:06] the hillside quarter community association

[21:09] in comparison to previous neighbourhood processes we reached a range

[21:13] of ages incomes and household types and housing ten years

[21:17] if not entirely representative of the community of the demographics

[21:22] we're confident that we reached a broad range that represented

[21:26] all members of our community surveys did well with the

[21:29] H. twenty four to forty five age range including families

[21:32] with children at home which are demographics that have typically

[21:36] been underrepresented in neighborhood planning process if not in city

[21:40] wide process and renters represented about one third of our

[21:43] respondents

[21:49] the process was also promoted by various means including a

[21:52] mailer to all households owners and businesses radio print and

[21:55] online media and thousands of fliers distributed real world opportunities

[22:00] were provided to interact with content and provide feedback

[22:08] I'll speak to what we heard what we learned and

[22:11] keep policy proposals in four areas housing urban villages sustainable

[22:16] mobility and public space

[22:19] for housing ... that some of the key thermal key

[22:23] themes we heard included a desire for varied housing opportunities

[22:27] in our neighborhoods there was widespread support for affordable housing

[22:31] options and general support for a range of choices including

[22:34] rental ownership and family sized housing some participants did want

[22:39] to focus on specific incomes household types or housing scales

[22:43] and many supported at the density to support affordable options

[22:48] there was general support for housing your transit amenities in

[22:51] villages support very ... for different areas somewhat one of

[22:56] the most interesting themes that encourage emerged in our engagement

[22:59] was a desire to have multi family and rental options

[23:02] not just on busy arterial corridors but on quieter streets

[23:06] and for many this was seen as an equity issue

[23:09] providing renters and those who want to live in multi

[23:12] family housing including families with a range of choices for

[23:16] the types of environment they can live in and so

[23:19] there were some critique ... the the messaging of corridors

[23:23] based on that concern

[23:25] there was also a concern to minimize displacement of existing

[23:28] rental buildings and renters

[23:31] as we grow and change as a city we heard

[23:34] interesting car like living options but also need for mobility

[23:37] choices including that some need to drive for life Styler

[23:40] job ... there was an emphasis on design for it

[23:43] neighborliness but also designed for liveability for residents and a

[23:47] desire for housing to be accompanied by investments in amenities

[23:50] and green space finally we did hear comments on the

[23:54] desire for equitable housing opportunities across the region and this

[23:58] was often expressed as a perception that some places were

[24:01] not accommodating their quote unquote fair share of multi family

[24:05] affordable housing

[24:14] it's

[24:15] so part of what we learned was presented in the

[24:18] housing futures report as communicated their significant pent up demand

[24:22] for housing scene in the lower house information rate a

[24:25] low vacancy rate households in unseasonably sized homes and to

[24:29] continue to exit of people from Victoria proper as a

[24:32] form families and we also expect the region to continue

[24:35] to grow by about one percent per year as we

[24:38] indicated in the housing futures presentation the capacity of the

[24:42] current OCP is thought to be about fifteen to thirty

[24:45] percent short to meet the needs for the next twenty

[24:48] years and I noting this is a someone updated figure

[24:51] we also conduct conducted economic analysis ... under financial viability

[24:56] of rental housing as some of the pre work for

[24:58] the rental housing strategy and we discovered that for rental

[25:02] housing to be viable ... absent financial incentives it often

[25:06] needs a bit more density than our current urban residential

[25:08] place designation allows ... this is not the case everywhere

[25:13] for example in desirable places where rent ... might be

[25:16] a bit higher or areas with lower land values or

[25:20] with reduced and ... surface or tuck under parking rather

[25:23] than structured parking the current OCP densities may be sufficient

[25:27] to support rental we also found that parking ratios above

[25:30] one space per about two units will be challenging for

[25:34] us to be financially viable

[25:40] and we also conducted some urban design testing which will

[25:42] speak more to regarding design guidelines

[25:47] the key directions proposed for consultation includes several changes to

[25:51] urban place designations to make room for diverse housing options

[25:58] first some areas near transit corridors and urban villages are

[26:01] proposed to be changed from traditional residential to urban residential

[26:05] land use

[26:09] second within these areas some areas are recommended to consider

[26:13] a bit more density up to two point five to

[26:15] one floor space ratio where housing benefits or public amenities

[26:19] can be provided this is a density that comfortably fits

[26:23] within five to six story buildings depending on lot size

[26:26] and consistent with the proposed design guidelines

[26:33] finally in some areas where people expressed wanting to live

[26:36] in wanting more housing options are recommended to consider a

[26:39] new mixed density designation which would allow buildings up to

[26:43] approximately four stories with proper transitions and this is reflected

[26:48] in the density of up to approximately one point six

[26:50] to one floor space ratio and a smaller footprint building

[26:55] so putting it all together there are some changes recommended

[26:58] to for consultation

[27:03] and during that process we would also consider areas within

[27:06] urban residential where the application of residential rental tenure rezoning

[27:11] might be appropriate to support rental housing

[27:18] based on our consultation and urban design work the key

[27:21] directions are also proposing some updates to design guidelines primarily

[27:25] for both livability and neighborliness this includes recommended setbacks and

[27:30] transitions I it supports green and leafy streets as the

[27:34] image we want on a residential streets as well as

[27:37] corridors and some of the direction further prioritizes green space

[27:42] over parking we know tree canopy coverage has increased by

[27:46] about nine to thirteen percent in these neighborhoods and we'd

[27:49] like to see that continue in tandem with recent changes

[27:52] to the to the tree preservation bylaw and planting standards

[27:56] D. directions also propose some building designs which would be

[27:59] appropriate for busy streets are quieter streets to support livability

[28:03] such as courtyard housing forms

[28:11] the second topic is urban villages our planning for fifteen

[28:14] minutes neighborhoods and the objectives of these plans are to

[28:18] support daily needs close to home opportunities for local business

[28:22] and more joyful public spaces within our neighborhoods

[28:29] we heard that there's a strong value for walkable villages

[28:32] for their diverse local and multicultural businesses and services and

[28:36] culture we also heard that some parts of the neighborhoods

[28:39] are too far to walk easily to the south offerings

[28:42] and that so I consistent with analysis ... we know

[28:46] there's a desire for public spaces in all villages particularly

[28:49] in north park and Quadra villages that are accessible to

[28:52] all residents and many supported additional densities where these amenities

[28:57] could be provided there's also a desire for better pedestrian

[29:00] connectivity for supporting our urban forest and for a good

[29:04] architectural interface with the public realm

[29:07] for businesses we heard that parking management public seating and

[29:11] diverse commercial unit sizes are important and we heard a

[29:14] general concern that small business is not be priced out

[29:17] whether it's by new developments or simply by rising rents

[29:26] as part of this process we conducted a retail study

[29:29] to look at what ... the retailing and service needs

[29:32] of the community would be in twenty forty one and

[29:35] we learned that Victorians will support about a fifteen to

[29:38] twenty six percent growth in retail and services over the

[29:41] next twenty years

[29:43] we know that some areas are more than a fifteen

[29:45] minute walk from larger villages and that some of these

[29:47] areas show strong potential for village expansion

[29:52] we also learned through economic analysis that the OCP densities

[29:55] in large urban villages maybe marginally viable right now for

[29:59] commercial and rental commercial buildings with rental residential included and

[30:04] that are densities in smaller villages at four stories are

[30:07] viable for commercial with strata residential but perhaps not for

[30:11] rental we also learned the parking requirements may impede an

[30:15] incremental changes and that's because of parking requirements often drive

[30:19] the need for underground parking in villages which requires larger

[30:23] floor plates intends to encourage assemblage

[30:31] so based on what we heard we've proposed some changes

[30:34] to make room for thoughtful expansion enhancement and growth of

[30:39] our villages

[30:43] and I'll run through just the key themes for each

[30:46] of the three major villages here we know there's a

[30:49] lot of content and so will will keep it high

[30:52] level for quarter village one of the key themes is

[30:55] to maintain the small foot print pattern where it exists

[30:58] we noticed small store fronts small commercial spaces are valued

[31:02] and that there's ... on ownership pattern that's quite varied

[31:05] and so ... speaking to one of the main ways

[31:08] we can support this is a proposal to remove parking

[31:12] requirements from smaller mixed use buildings so that over time

[31:16] area decisions can lead to reinvestment in smaller lots rather

[31:20] than driving the consolidation for larger buildings with larger developments

[31:25] we know there are also larger sites and the plans

[31:27] envision if re development should occur on the sites that

[31:30] there are amenities that people would like to see in

[31:33] these neighborhoods as well as diverse housing we also recognize

[31:36] that there's a strong desire for hillside Avenue to be

[31:39] a more pedestrian friendly spaces and that the village can

[31:42] better turn the corner

[31:44] four what's it for quarter west UNC along kings road

[31:48] west the plans envision a future mixed income community with

[31:52] on site amenities for residents as well as new public

[31:55] spaces and also support the evolution of a courtroom use

[31:59] where the lane way over time to transition into a

[32:02] more pedestrian friendly public space with opportunities for additional housing

[32:07] as well as businesses and makerspaces

[32:12] with the north park village the key directions also proposed

[32:16] maintaining the small foot print ... pattern of ownership and

[32:19] buildings that's important but also it enabling some larger and

[32:22] medium sized developments to support a public plaza public space

[32:26] and diverse housing we know there's currently ... a lot

[32:30] of surface parking in the village and so there may

[32:32] be evolution over the coming decades so it's up to

[32:35] the market

[32:36] we also have developed directions to use place making to

[32:41] of all of what could become a permanent closet to

[32:43] meet that desire people express for public gathering space and

[32:47] to enhance greenery and sidewalks which requires either new development

[32:50] or re purposing of the roadway ... there's a desire

[32:55] to turn the corner to better connect psychologically Franklin green

[32:59] park ... for people when you're visiting the village and

[33:02] to encourage the retention and revitalization of the remaining light

[33:06] industrial and artisan spaces along north Park Street not just

[33:10] as a reflection of the history of this neighborhood but

[33:12] for the future to provide good jobs to provide space

[33:15] for the arts

[33:18] for for in wood village ... the key directions call

[33:21] for enabling the village to incrementally expand over time with

[33:26] a small scale feel and buildings generally no more than

[33:29] four stories ... the the key directions propose a commercial

[33:33] desired approach to some area which would seek new buildings

[33:37] that can accommodate commercial and services at the ground floor

[33:42] but could also be flexible to accommodate residential so that

[33:45] the the addition of housing is not stymied ... there

[33:49] is the directions call for better connecting for an would

[33:52] square to Gladstone Avenue and to green spaces with ...

[33:56] better pedestrian connections public seating and amenities to allow the

[34:01] future expansion of the belfry theatre or or a cultural

[34:04] space and to update the guidelines the design guidelines with

[34:08] an eye to heritage sensitivity

[34:13] for other villages ... that are proposed there are several

[34:17] small villages income community corner is proposed to serve areas

[34:20] that are more than a fifteen minute walk from larger

[34:22] villages now ... baystreet is proposed accommodate some commercial nodes

[34:27] as well as diverse housing supporting frequent transit and enhancing

[34:31] the the feel and the the pedestrian and green the

[34:35] static of the street I'm a future High Street has

[34:38] been envisioned a quadrant told me which is supported by

[34:41] the area population particularly to the north ... and in

[34:44] footprint would be somewhat smaller than Haultain corners if it

[34:47] were to fall that's envisioned and then ... an interesting

[34:51] idea that came from local residents was a community corners

[34:55] in your friend list and hi if you to create

[34:57] a place for a community focal point in the space

[35:00] for local serving businesses for place making and so forth

[35:08] regarding sustainable mobility is the key directions ... look to

[35:12] further and support the go Victoria sustainable mobility plan a

[35:16] key implementation step is to conduct quarter studies to better

[35:19] lamb line land use and urban design to determine ...

[35:23] what sorts of right of way are needed to accommodate

[35:26] our sustainable mobility future an urban forest along those corridors

[35:29] and what kind of setbacks could be accommodated and that

[35:32] would be done with existing local you're planning funds for

[35:35] transportation I streets as greener places for people and a

[35:40] couple of the directions that support go Victoria are to

[35:43] modernize our parking requirements again to support rental housing as

[35:47] well as smaller footprint commercial mixed use options end of

[35:51] managing on street parking to better balance the needs of

[35:54] businesses as well as residents and in four environment so

[35:57] we can have more vibrant villages the plans also propose

[36:00] additions to our green Waye system to better connect homes

[36:03] parks and other destinations within our neighborhoods

[36:08] regarding parks amenities and open spaces

[36:12] what one of the important notice that local area planning

[36:15] is not the primary means by which the city plans

[36:19] major parks investments but rather does are based on the

[36:22] parks and open spaces master plan ... individual park improvement

[36:26] plans that are done periodically and the priorities set by

[36:30] council ... through strategic plan and through the financial plan

[36:34] but local area planning does provide us the ability to

[36:37] look for opportunities on larger sites for public space to

[36:41] identify needs ... and to look for gaps in our

[36:44] system one of the proposals is to support ... the

[36:48] formalization of green space ... in hillside Quadra south hillside

[36:52] Avenue where the population is most diverse and where multi

[36:56] family housing it is located on to expand or in

[36:59] your community center space is consistent with the strategic plan

[37:03] ... an important point we heard through our consultation was

[37:06] that there's a strong desire to locate spaces for indigenous

[37:10] gathering and cultural practice in the center of our region

[37:13] ... and the the ... not so much ... space

[37:17] in ... commotion Lansdowne campus with sometimes cited ... but

[37:21] there's a feeling that there isn't a dedicated space ...

[37:24] for indigenous practice and celebration that there are indigenous people

[37:29] of many nations living in these neighborhoods and that the

[37:32] center region is very accessible ... for people and so

[37:36] it's something we'd like to keep in mind there was

[37:39] also a desire to consider location for small scale outdoor

[37:42] music events whether it's youth events or something its biggest

[37:45] quarter village days and to make those easier happen and

[37:48] so that's something we can explore through our upcoming music

[37:51] strategy ... we know there's interest in looking for opportunities

[37:55] ... ten corporate rock big creek or the historic rocky

[37:59] creek into public or private lands and to continue to

[38:02] support community gardening efforts through growing in the city

[38:08] the next steps that are proposed are to bring these

[38:10] key directions in the form of draft plans and design

[38:13] guidelines to the community for robust engagement phase ...

[38:18] this engagement phase would emphasize a variety of opportunities for

[38:23] input depending on one's interest with higher or more in

[38:27] depth levels of information and ability to provide feedback as

[38:32] well as shorter ... ways to to both get information

[38:35] and provide feedback to use video and different promotional means

[38:39] to appeal to different people and to focus on both

[38:43] virtual ... engagement which has been very successful in bridging

[38:47] the gap to some of our demographics and in person

[38:50] opportunities

[38:54] the key to read the key recommendations are summarized here

[38:57] and ... that will conclude my presentation thank you very

[39:00] much Mr Sisson thank you very much and as close

[39:03] as well so council as noted will just have questions

[39:08] but but also I think ... comments will be in

[39:11] order ... just because it would be odd to just

[39:13] have questions for a long time so if people want

[39:16] to just give their general impressions or feelings or profits

[39:19] ... question with a comment that's okay so again kind

[39:22] of like we did with the strategic plan more of

[39:24] a workshop feel especially since we will be debating motions

[39:27] today so there's a lot to dig into a and

[39:29] maybe I'll start I'll start with council rise it'll look

[39:31] for others and maybe just to keep some variety not

[39:34] have one person holding the floor for awhile starts cancer

[39:37] as a go to concerts or enjoy everyone will have

[39:39] ample opportunity so don't feel like your first time to

[39:42] speak is your only time to speak accounts are as

[39:44] it go ahead

[39:45] thank you ... it's clear that in the a lot

[39:48] of work has gone into this so I wanna thank

[39:50] staff for ... the the very high quality ... work

[39:54] both preparing these documents ... also the level of engagement

[39:58] ... I heard ... some from some neighborhoods ... representatives

[40:05] I've heard that they feel the the plan is ready

[40:08] to move forward and ... from others ... the to

[40:12] do feel that the experience for them has been something

[40:16] short of what ... the perceived Victoria west and print

[40:20] site gorge and Fairfield is getting an

[40:25] reading those comments made me question the wisdom of council's

[40:28] decision to sort of combine these three neighborhoods into a

[40:31] single process ... something I've also heard from Fernwood is

[40:36] that the ... person from from some from what residents

[40:40] is that ... they think it's problematic that different park

[40:45] these busy different sides of their neighbourhood are hived off

[40:47] into different processes so unlike north park in court hillside

[40:52] Quadra which this is sort of an integrated planning process

[40:55] even though it's bundled with other neighborhoods for firmware they

[40:58] have to wait til the next phase to have the

[41:01] fourth street corridor ... discussed and then they have to

[41:04] wait for the fees after that I believe the new

[41:07] facing might involve Oaklands in the next phase but essentially

[41:11] the northern and southern limits of that affirm whether or

[41:14] not actually part of this process so for some for

[41:17] and what residents and community leaders it's felt like a

[41:21] disjointed process ... and they wonder about the viability of

[41:26] achieving an updated neighbourhood plan given that sort of just

[41:30] jointed nature ... I guess an issue that's come up

[41:33] previously to is ... with Covidien a lack of opportunity

[41:37] for in person meetings ... I guess question has there

[41:41] been sufficient engagement to move to the stage of drafting

[41:44] a plan so I guess if Mr Cittone could maybe

[41:47] just to address those questions that I guess the disk

[41:50] jointed nature of the process and Fernwood

[41:53] ... the potential negative impacts of the bundling the freak

[41:56] three neighborhoods versus the more room robust and focus project

[42:00] that process of the other neighborhoods that previously ... and

[42:04] then ... just because of it and and whether some

[42:07] additional engagement prior to drafting the plan might be advisable

[42:13] but thank you councillor in through mayor helps up regarding

[42:18] the first question I try to keep all three questions

[42:20] in mind ... I believe it's about bundling a bundling

[42:23] the neighborhoods out there one of the key reasons we

[42:26] proposed ... tackling these particular three neighborhoods together in the

[42:32] past we've always had two or three neighbourhood planning process

[42:35] he's going on at once I believe we had ...

[42:38] request and Fairfield in Gonzales and then that will consolidate

[42:42] process he split off and the way our neighborhood boundaries

[42:46] and we know that it's been ... a subject of

[42:48] discussion in the community ... but the way our neighborhood

[42:51] boundaries are drawn and the way we interact with people

[42:54] cross those boundaries whether it's to take their children to

[42:56] elementary school or to access ... cultural opportunities are businesses

[43:02] in the next neighborhood ... on our working group alone

[43:05] we've had renters with moved from one neighborhood to another

[43:08] during the process ... simply because of ... their their

[43:12] living situation assassinated that ... so we see a lot

[43:17] of inter twined between these neighborhoods and I think the

[43:20] discussion for example that's going on in for an within

[43:23] north park I mean it's been very beneficial for us

[43:26] to talk about both of those neighbourhoods together so for

[43:28] our process it's fairly in material where that boundary lies

[43:32] because we're consulting on what kind of place people would

[43:35] like in north park village and what kind of opportunities

[43:38] people would like for living and for moving around on

[43:41] those neighbourhoods so we as staff feel like the bundling

[43:45] has been a very positive thing ... we understand there

[43:49] are some concerns about the final product which will be

[43:52] a neighbourhood plan and that ... in the in the

[43:56] case of Fernwood up parts of that southern part of

[43:59] for an would south of Pandora Avenue are incorporated into

[44:02] a comprehensive planning process for fort St ... we've left

[44:06] Haultain corners ... to be consulted through the Oaklands process

[44:11] it's some

[44:11] I think that we've always had to do and I

[44:12] think when we when we did the Gonzalez plan in

[44:15] fact we signaled that we weren't consulting on oak bay

[44:18] Avenue village during that process because that would be consulted

[44:22] on at the same time it's two billion so there's

[44:24] perhaps no ... no one answer to how to divide

[44:28] these these areas and then the last one was cold

[44:31] within the lack of opportunities for in person engagement and

[44:34] whether some additional engagement might be advisable before moving towards

[44:39] drafting the plans

[44:41] yeah as far as as in person engagement of course

[44:44] during covert ... it was challenging to do in person

[44:47] engagement and we did ... some things like a a

[44:50] socially distance walk shop as part of our workshops we

[44:54] were able to supplement ... that desire with a number

[44:58] of online focus groups which reached I believe for a

[45:02] total of over two hundred people both with focus groups

[45:05] same that at ... sometimes less engage groups like newcomers

[45:09] like youth high school students ... renters as well as

[45:15] ... you know just community residents and and business groups

[45:19] ... business owners and then our ... online engagement we've

[45:23] certainly heard there are people who value

[45:26] the feel of in person engagement the the dialogue we've

[45:30] heard from some homeowners who want to hear more from

[45:32] renters they may not trust what we're hearing ... but

[45:35] overall we also feel that the online engagement and it's

[45:39] also something we've heard has given demographics who didn't participate

[45:42] robustly in the past a chance to participate we've had

[45:45] meetings where ... there there is ... you parents of

[45:49] young children who turn off their camera to ... do

[45:53] what they need to do to take care of their

[45:54] children and we're still able to participate and so we

[45:57] believe there have been positives as well that what we'd

[46:00] like to do in the next round because of being

[46:03] able to open up is to continue the positives of

[46:06] virtual engagement while incorporating more of that in person touch

[46:11] ... we also recognize that there are topics that people

[46:14] ... because planning is an ongoing process these topics that

[46:18] people want through in person engagement to build community to

[46:22] work with our neighbourhoods team to talk about where community

[46:24] gardens might be or how they can use a growing

[46:26] in the city grant and so we know those conversations

[46:29] will continue to happen ... but that the the local

[46:33] area planning process will give us the ability to update

[46:37] our OCP in a timely manner to address some of

[46:40] the key issues were facing as a society around sustainability

[46:44] around our housing needs around public space while allowing all

[46:48] of those conversations to continue ... through ongoing city support

[46:53] and programs thank you mayor helps how much did you

[46:56] wanna limit each so what are you ask one more

[46:59] question yeah so it's good ... sure very minor so

[47:03] maybe I'll just ask them almost more technical and then

[47:06] maybe a little bit more substantial one in this it

[47:09] gives me a summary ... there's a map it's the

[47:13] map of the greenways and parks

[47:16] ... she knows what's not in there so the what

[47:18] I think in the what's next so what's proposed

[47:22] ... just confirming is the last page but maybe another

[47:25] attachment yeah if you could give us ... the attachment

[47:28] letter and then the page number sure page eight of

[47:33] the back to see I usually don't use the software

[47:36] attachment be

[47:39] AJ to attach and be okay

[47:44] ... just looking at the ... I think it's very

[47:48] positive the new green ways that have been identified and

[47:51] I think they do reflect the pattern of people living

[47:54] in those neighborhoods ...

[47:56] so I think knowledge ment of that is good to

[47:58] help to target future investment ... future planting of trees

[48:02] and other ...

[48:04] amenities to transform those into kind of linear parks

[48:09] him broke street the city in the past has invested

[48:13] quite a bit of money at the intersection of ...

[48:15] Pembroke and big B. and the area that we call

[48:19] up big big green although maybe we re visit that

[48:22] naming choice based on some recent information from island health

[48:26] with respect to their former big be building but it's

[48:29] a little tension toll but ... yeah just wondering why

[48:32] Pembroke isn't shown is extending ... essentially all the way

[48:36] into the jubilees because it does seem to function it

[48:40] is I think already a green way in terms of

[48:42] there's a

[48:43] ... I'm not sure if it's a fully signalized crosswalk

[48:46] in terms of the district pedestrian control signal but there's

[48:49] a fairly substantial marked crosswalk at Pembroke and Shelburne then

[48:56] there's a park and then all of those side roads

[48:58] towards ... fort street and to the hospital kind of

[49:01] function is pretty calm so you're suggesting the green the

[49:05] green way should continue right into all the way to

[49:07] the probably even for came up a chunk going to

[49:10] the jubilee hospital sort of due east and then probably

[49:14] going down one of those roads chess not or the

[49:16] next one where that new seniors complexes going

[49:21] at that time is it just has that has not

[49:22] been on staff's reader screen yeah it's a good question

[49:26] ... and I think I may have to look to

[49:28] make transportation colleagues I believe they've been ... one or

[49:31] two different routes identified as ... the the most appropriate

[49:35] route to continue East West mobility through their ... and

[49:39] we know you know green ways and things like bicycle

[49:41] routes don't always overlap ... but yeah that's exactly I

[49:45] think in presenting this to the community the kind of

[49:47] feedback we want to hear I know we've also recently

[49:50] done upgrades to Denman so that also has better East

[49:53] West active transportation connectivity but I think also Shakespeare street

[49:58] the hill goes up quite a bit when you go

[49:59] to

[50:00] so the Pembroke so I think most pedestrians would choose

[50:03] the fairly gentle grade of Pembroke ... I think also

[50:07] Pembroke going to the west towards downtown I think it's

[50:11] very supportable it so I have a friend who uses

[50:14] a wheelchair and it is one of the most gentle

[50:15] grades in the neighborhood so from the accessibility standpoint I

[50:19] think considering Pembroke all the way from rock bay from

[50:22] just down here all the way to the jubilee hospital

[50:25] is in East West green way and eventually achieving some

[50:28] crossing across Blanchard I think is good policy ... my

[50:31] only other note on a green way there is in

[50:34] the western end so we look this topaz park in

[50:37] the north and it runs through the topaz campus of

[50:40] Victoria high school and then down through evergreen terrace and

[50:44] it shows a proposed greenway extending down ... dollar so

[50:50] it's a dotted line going south that ends at Pembroke

[50:53] um as someone who lives not too far from there

[50:56] that does function as a green way right into the

[50:58] downtown and then takes the the Hudson news between Chatham

[51:03] street and Fitchburg and so I realize that's in the

[51:06] downtown but I think it's I think to showing that

[51:09] north south connection being the green week connection into the

[51:12] downtown even write to city hall would reflect existing patterns

[51:17] of mobility

[51:18] so ... does I guess I'll save my next one

[51:22] for the next round thank you thank you and ...

[51:25] just a question on process ... so councillor Isitt's made

[51:27] that suggestion how do councillors that the how to councillor

[51:30] suggestions get kind of taken as as feedback as well

[51:33] or is it come is is kind of a workshop

[51:35] be kind of the opportunity for us to like for

[51:39] like that that suggestion and others that councillors may make

[51:41] our staff noting down this is kind of quote unquote

[51:44] public consultation with council

[51:47] I I may differ to council for that I suppose

[51:50] this is one of two ways ... that could be

[51:53] on it could be two to bring if you these

[51:55] proposals to the public and see what else we here

[51:58] as well and then start adding things in or or

[52:00] modifying things or if council ... so chooses to ...

[52:06] proposed sent some refinement or a different approach to it

[52:10] before we bring something to the public ... I don't

[52:13] know if I these have anything more to to say

[52:15] to that but I would defer to council yeah I

[52:18] think what what what I what I don't want to

[52:20] get into it is ... a motion to make the

[52:23] Green Line extend two more blocks ... that would just

[52:26] be would be really getting into the weeds but I

[52:27] think ... in past neighbourhood planning process easier has been

[52:31] and I'm kind of glad that that the state has

[52:32] shaken out as it has because this is like let's

[52:34] consider this a workshop with council and then decisions next

[52:37] weekend so maybe just note down that kind of input

[52:39] I don't think anyone we don't need to change the

[52:41] plans before they go to council but ... before they

[52:44] go to the public but this feedback from council today

[52:46] can can help inform the final plans just as the

[52:49] public input on the plans well okay thank you I

[52:51] councillor Thornton Joe counselor Loveday and then I'll look for

[52:54] others yeah yeah thank you ... for the presentation and

[52:58] I agreed that ... there's tremendous amount of work that's

[53:01] been obviously been put into it and engagement I was

[53:05] really happy to see some of the groups that perhaps

[53:08] ... haven't often been ... engaged ... that that that

[53:13] percentage has gone up ... but I also am concerned

[53:17] about term you know what through a cold it I

[53:21] have heard from folks that say I have no technical

[53:24] ability I captain zoom meeting or you know what do

[53:27] I do a phone call or can we meet the

[53:29] park in the distance ... I've I've heard people say

[53:34] that they have not really left their house in the

[53:37] whole time because of

[53:40] of some form of you know

[53:45] the concerns of of of being high at risk so

[53:49] I you know I think ... as as we're are

[53:52] are opening up I'd like to see an opportunity to

[53:56] do a little bit more in person ...

[54:00] and especially getting also not necessary from where we are

[54:05] right now but also being able to give a little

[54:07] bit of background as well for those individuals that may

[54:10] have felt left out so ... because of you know

[54:14] the some precedent time with all of that

[54:17] so that was so my my first comment ... or

[54:20] and this is the second comment ... I had I

[54:23] I was really pleased to see the discussion about ...

[54:28] indoor and outdoor spaces for indigenous gatherings and cultural practices

[54:33] Sam

[54:34] and I I thought

[54:37] well firstly when I look at ... the hillside Quadra

[54:40] area I know ... a few folks that ... live

[54:44] in that area and they use the is of the

[54:47] estate will assign a lots was still called but the

[54:50] the fields as sort of their green area to kick

[54:54] a soccer ball or go for a Walker ... so

[54:58] you know I think in the future whether that some

[55:00] partnership or discussions with the school district on on some

[55:04] of that land ... but

[55:07] also I I don't know is from the staff for

[55:11] aware but across the street is the spot come house

[55:15] which is ... and did you miss a housing for

[55:18] women and I know that ... they often go across

[55:22] the street to do some some you know whether it's

[55:26] ... ...

[55:29] the talks whether it's some outdoor opportunities and so there

[55:33] that might be an opportunity to consider and partner with

[55:37] some of some organizations ... for that but ... yeah

[55:41] I think they're the report covered a lot of areas

[55:44] of ...

[55:46] ... that serve interested today roots and so that's all

[55:50] I have to say for now I'll see what others

[55:52] say thank you thanks councillor Thornton Joe councillor Loveday pots

[55:56] and then young

[55:59] thank you very much for all your work on this

[56:02] and and also to the

[56:04] ... many members of the public that were involved in

[56:06] getting feedback and ideas so far I'm

[56:11] a couple of questions that are more broad strokes and

[56:13] then a couple more

[56:15]

[56:16]

[56:17] localized once I'm so one question that I think we

[56:21] will continue to come up is I. as we look

[56:25] to see a redevelopment in uh village centers particularly I

[56:30] you know looking at this site I think of north

[56:32] park and Quadra village which are ... this is part

[56:38] of what makes them such great places is that they

[56:42] have affordable rents and that ... that attracts diverse and

[56:46] interesting ...

[56:48] organizations and businesses to the ... to the store fronts

[56:52] so as this plan ... could envision redevelopment of the

[56:57] sites how are there tools within ...

[57:01] the planning process that could allow us to protect the

[57:07] ... you know against gentrification essentially adds as the development

[57:12] occurs

[57:17] yes thank you councillor in through mayor helps it's it's

[57:20] certainly ... a critical question and it's one we've looked

[57:23] at and and wrestled with an looked at best practices

[57:26] that are are within the purview of of municipal government

[57:29] in BC and some of the the strategies that we

[57:33] would be explained further that are being proposed for for

[57:36] consultation include ... really valuing ... that that small footprint

[57:41] ownership pattern and so ... as happened in high streets

[57:45] are main streets in the past you know if the

[57:47] building is aging or ... maybe a long term lease

[57:51] is up and the owner is looking to do something

[57:53] different ... right now contemporary parking standards tend to drive

[57:59] a larger assemblage because there's certain economics and certain footprint

[58:03] that's needed to build underground parking and so looking at

[58:08] more of the ways high streets involved in the past

[58:10] where you know what I don't or may choose to

[58:12] redevelop ... with a commercial storefront or two and perhaps

[58:16] two or three or four stories of of housing perhaps

[58:18] rental housing above ... and then to look at ...

[58:23] within you development the policies call for looking at a

[58:27] diversity of commercial unit sizes up some of the things

[58:30] we've heard from businesses there are emerging businesses or sole

[58:34] proprietor ... hair care for instance where they just really

[58:38] need a hundred fifty to three hundred square feet another

[58:42] idea that emerge from businesses was the value of public

[58:45] seating that's not tied to one business but a quality

[58:49] public realm that welcomes all so that ... a food

[58:52] business doesn't have to lease enough space to have lots

[58:55] of indoor seating or an emerging business can be take

[58:58] out only and there's a place around the corner that's

[59:00] comfortable to set ... so it's certainly ... you know

[59:05] one of those questions ... a lot of vacant units

[59:08] L. these grapple with this and ... there's opportunities to

[59:11] emphasize redevelopment around the village in the donut

[59:14] so to speak ... as well ... these plants look

[59:18] to kind of take a balanced approach and so not

[59:22] to increase the density available through the OCP in villages

[59:25] and to focus on ... some of the characteristics of

[59:29] villages that can continue to provide diversity of spaces over

[59:32] time ... and maybe look to some of our surface

[59:35] parking over the next two decades as opportunities to grow

[59:39] ... what's happening in the villages

[59:43] thanks yeah I to me that some

[59:47] I look forward to how that engagement shakes out and

[59:49] what tools get built into the plan I just ...

[59:53] that's one of my

[59:55] major concerns and priorities ... if we're looking at at

[1:00:00] north park village and ... I love the idea of

[1:00:04] a plaza and I'm wondering how ... the ball moral

[1:00:09] site was chosen rather than a different street

[1:00:14] check thank you for that question through the mayor ...

[1:00:17] see it the north park site was actually the first

[1:00:20] site chosen and that was during our workshop service sort

[1:00:23] of charrette process and it kind of came out through

[1:00:26] the community in conversations with the the planners and urban

[1:00:28] designers were there and also as a a space that

[1:00:31] was starting to evolve a little bit with that bill

[1:00:33] back toria patios on the street already and so we

[1:00:36] kind of draft up that design and then as we

[1:00:38] took that idea out to the broader public and sort

[1:00:40] of the next up of engagement we heard some concerns

[1:00:43] from some of the businesses about access for deliveries and

[1:00:46] ... limited parking in the area and so the suggestion

[1:00:49] of Balmoral is another good opportunity ... came up as

[1:00:52] well ... I I think it was largely because I

[1:00:55] had good space on the street and would still good

[1:00:57] ... access and connectivity to the neighborhood ... and then

[1:01:01] beyond that there's also up the speaking ... being considered

[1:01:04] near a royal athletic park ... near the tiny home

[1:01:08] site and so that was sort of a third ideas

[1:01:11] all of these ideas are are sort of out there

[1:01:13] now and we're trying to document them all through this

[1:01:15] process and eventually in the plan as an opportunity for

[1:01:18] businesses are community members to come through with something that's

[1:01:20] very community led and something that works for the neighborhood

[1:01:23] itself but city supported ... through your place making another

[1:01:26] programs

[1:01:30] great in looking at the

[1:01:35] all moral

[1:01:37] site I guess one of my questions is ... just

[1:01:41] with

[1:01:43] the

[1:01:45] the developments there aren't as active ... on the street

[1:01:49] front is the other

[1:01:51] locations where you do have that in the fine green

[1:01:54] retail ends ...

[1:01:58] yep so off like I I think

[1:02:00] you know I I'd always thought of the

[1:02:05] the north north park site is ... it has potential

[1:02:08] plaza so surprised to see that but I'm I am

[1:02:10] also very glad to that there's a plaza envisioned I

[1:02:14] think that that I'm high quality public space within north

[1:02:18] park will go a long way to building the village

[1:02:21] ... one question on

[1:02:24] looking at design of street scapes ... and pedestrian friendly

[1:02:31] yes ... of the idea of ball boats in say

[1:02:37] how would that ... interplay's with cycling in just wondering

[1:02:43] how that ... yeah overlays with ... cycle ability in

[1:02:48] design

[1:02:55] okay

[1:02:56] I could

[1:02:58] the because of the the higher level nature of the

[1:03:01] the local area plans we didn't wrestle specifically with those

[1:03:04] we know it's something that can be considered ... through

[1:03:07] more refined design or ... quarter studies I may look

[1:03:11] to our transportation ... colleagues to elaborate if this is

[1:03:16] more to say on that Mr Bellefontaine

[1:03:19] it can I guess eight thank you I would yeah

[1:03:21] I think you please and ... without looking at ...

[1:03:25] just the the longer term vision of cook street I

[1:03:29] guess Pacific Lee

[1:03:32] Cooksey through north park village yes exactly yeah

[1:03:42] Dylan Thomas can you test years do you have power

[1:03:44] either

[1:03:46] yes we have okay

[1:03:49] we

[1:03:53] okay and then out a break we'll see about power

[1:03:55] to planning and engineering all departments need power thank you

[1:04:00] if you could repeat the question about I think I

[1:04:02] understood I think the ... disk the question is about

[1:04:05] the ...

[1:04:07] ... the ability to introduce curb bulges brought up the

[1:04:10] same time ensuring we turned to Saddam to cyclists is

[1:04:13] that the

[1:04:15] yes and so in the context of the longer term

[1:04:19] vision for cook street specifically through the north park village

[1:04:24] right yes I mean that does this kind of two

[1:04:28] layers to this there is the ... very rubber hits

[1:04:32] the roads detailed design component to that ... so that

[1:04:36] when we ought when if we're looking at pedestrian curb

[1:04:39] bulges ... ... to improve sightlines between parking for example

[1:04:45] and to reduce the distance the pedestrians have to cross

[1:04:49] ... when there is ... when there are bicycle facilities

[1:04:53] that we do take that into account so that we

[1:04:56] don't squeeze for cyclists and force them to ... ...

[1:05:02] have to compete with it ... vehicles unless of course

[1:05:07] we have designated that routes has already a shed cycling

[1:05:11] ... the vehicle type ... corridor the cook street is

[1:05:15] an arterial road so you know the future that would

[1:05:19] likely be separated bicycle lanes with with through traffic ...

[1:05:25] as as you heard already that that that the specific

[1:05:29] designed sort of elements to that ... having pain sort

[1:05:33] of looked at as part of this process but ...

[1:05:37] we would always be very ... mindful that in whatever

[1:05:42] was proposed that we would be protecting our ability to

[1:05:46] introduce more ... high level by school facilities in the

[1:05:50] future that was a little bit of a roundabout response

[1:05:53] but it's something that would be very much top of

[1:05:55] mind for us I think that that's some good enough

[1:05:59] for now and when we get to the fine detailed

[1:06:01] design and

[1:06:03] that'll be great to learn more ... just wanted to

[1:06:06] flag it I guess and ... on the

[1:06:10] one more question ... handed off ... moving to Quadra

[1:06:13] village ...

[1:06:15] I thank you know I think one of the priorities

[1:06:17] he's the

[1:06:19] the maintenance of an arts site ... you know the

[1:06:23] rocks he plays a big role in ...

[1:06:28] looking at the the plan calls for more ... heights

[1:06:34] within the middle of the village I believe ... in

[1:06:38] looking at if there were to be a a redevelopment

[1:06:41] that would be able to ... have enough size to

[1:06:46] have a new theater ... for new artists facility ...

[1:06:51] it it may need to move towards that the corner

[1:06:53] at hillside so I'm wondering if ... if that

[1:06:59] I guess how the conversations about height and density ...

[1:07:04] factor into the discussion of the Roxy sites specifically and

[1:07:10] ... what is anticipated

[1:07:13] ... what tools are anticipated to be able to allow

[1:07:18] for the maintenance of something ... either the Roxy were

[1:07:23] a site you know the rocks the site being continued

[1:07:26] in its art arts use

[1:07:33] yeah thank you and through mayor helps some kind of

[1:07:36] turning over in my mind this is that numerous aspects

[1:07:38] it to how we support the arts in the local

[1:07:41] area planning is is just one way to look for

[1:07:44] opportunities in the case of the Roxy we saw two

[1:07:48] things come together which was from the community side we

[1:07:51] know that that theater while at the love card of

[1:07:54] the neighborhood was not suiting the needs of the current

[1:07:58] users and is at risk and so ... do it

[1:08:02] there's already that the idea in the community for a

[1:08:05] what could this look like as a more modern performance

[1:08:08] space and that coincided with our ... arts and culture

[1:08:12] master planning which has identified the need for a two

[1:08:16] hundred fifty to three hundred seat venue I believe ...

[1:08:18] as part of our our cultural ecosystem and so we

[1:08:23] looked at through the the the workshop process out what

[1:08:26] would it mean to try to retain a theater use

[1:08:29] into the future and is that something that could be

[1:08:32] incorporated into a future development perhaps as an amenity space

[1:08:37] ... we know that's probably ... a pretty expensive amenity

[1:08:40] we haven't you know run any financial figures on that

[1:08:43] and so we consulted with the community ... you know

[1:08:47] would did the community be in favor of considering it

[1:08:49] done additional density if a space ... that continued that

[1:08:54] cultural function was included whether under current Roxy site or

[1:08:58] perhaps and one of the other large sites and ...

[1:09:01] you know there were there were a range of of

[1:09:03] opinions on that I would say all all in all

[1:09:05] of our survey participants were supportive ... there were you

[1:09:09] know some who wanted to also see diverse housing opportunities

[1:09:12] and that some who felt their oxy should remain but

[1:09:15] they weren't comfortable with additional density to to deliver that

[1:09:19] amenity ... and then there are I take it all

[1:09:23] this possibilities for something like that to work in conjunction

[1:09:26] with a non profit or possibly with the city throughout

[1:09:30] an arts and culture

[1:09:31] her role and so ... they did local area plan

[1:09:36] has identified that as a desired amenity ... but hasn't

[1:09:39] gone too far beyond just sketching out some some rough

[1:09:44] ideas of maybe what something like that might look like

[1:09:46] to help people envision it and not really get into

[1:09:49] the site planning or nitty gritty of that this is

[1:09:52] so with that in looking at this the feedback he

[1:09:55] was ...

[1:09:57] a positive to the idea of making so for sixty

[1:10:00] percent with for six stories we're more which I think

[1:10:06] is some

[1:10:07] I'm pretty strong feedback at an early stage so I'm

[1:10:10] I'm wondering I guess would do the corner site then

[1:10:14] would put and I'm trying to ... understand ... the

[1:10:19] two parts one that says the density closer to the

[1:10:22] middle of the village and then also the strong support

[1:10:26] for retaining and arts site and the are the rocks

[1:10:30] is not on the corner but it's ... close to

[1:10:33] the corner and so I think if you were having

[1:10:36] a multi site development of some sort it would probably

[1:10:40] move to the corner of and and so that's why

[1:10:42] I'm just wondering if the current plan would allow that

[1:10:49] through mayor helps any apologies I didn't completely touched a

[1:10:52] question the plan we would certainly allow that the plan

[1:10:55] does look for a small public space at that corner

[1:10:58] as well because it's a very well used ... transit

[1:11:01] exchange as well as ... trying to anchor a little

[1:11:05] bit ... that ... that intersection which feels like you're

[1:11:09] sort of leaving the village right now when you get

[1:11:11] there but ... yet the plan is fairly ... agnostic

[1:11:15] to wear on the site something like the Roxy will

[1:11:18] woodland and that would be something that I think would

[1:11:20] be negotiated if it comes up through a development proposal

[1:11:25] or or ... you know action of the city or

[1:11:27] whatnot thank you very much I ended up for now

[1:11:30] thank you I've added you down later on ... on

[1:11:32] the list councillor Potts is next and then counselor young

[1:11:37] thanks a for a for all this work in and

[1:11:40] certainly for what you've been able to accomplish and certainly

[1:11:42] challenging time for engagement it's really exciting to look at

[1:11:45] all these plans and see at what can be a

[1:11:47] what is being envisioned for the next steps of of

[1:11:50] building the city ... most of my comments will be

[1:11:53] around north park in our in questions but just to

[1:11:56] start off just for by my understanding and help framing

[1:12:00] questions moving forward ... eat at the outset you said

[1:12:03] there these are not ... finalize directions and you you're

[1:12:07] seeking directions on next steps but ... is that really

[1:12:11] looking at the particular options that are laid out within

[1:12:14] each report or is their option so I think that

[1:12:17] particular look looking at north park all of the themes

[1:12:19] and the directions are exactly what what we've been hearing

[1:12:21] but maybe just looking at particularly some of the road

[1:12:25] closures there might be an option for another one is

[1:12:28] it is it well within what what you're looking for

[1:12:31] to suggest some of those other Roglic closure ideas

[1:12:36] through the mayor yes and that's how it that kind

[1:12:39] of ... manifesto potentially next week when we come back

[1:12:42] to council that would be through motion we could ...

[1:12:46] present that idea it's also good for engagement or just

[1:12:49] a check in like how how would that SPS advanced

[1:12:53] the process wise yeah so that's a bit different than

[1:12:55] drawing green lines on a map or not and I

[1:12:57] think those kinds of directions should come from council to

[1:12:59] staff to consult with on you know X. block being

[1:13:02] closed as part of the next phase of engagement rather

[1:13:04] than just hoping it comes up in the public so

[1:13:07] what we'll do that by motion next week that's great

[1:13:09] okay thanks for that ... because yeah yes it was

[1:13:12] really exciting to read at the north park plan and

[1:13:15] and just really see you got a lot of the

[1:13:17] themes that but I've been hearing to to be reflected

[1:13:20] within it ... but then just thinking about some of

[1:13:24] the other things that are happening north park right now

[1:13:26] and some of the things actually that actually is we're

[1:13:29] in the nineteen ninety six local area plan to that

[1:13:31] still rain true like thinking about how I'm planning around

[1:13:35] concentrations of social housing projects and we're seeing a lot

[1:13:38] more that and releasing a desire within the neighborhood to

[1:13:41] really lean into that ... and in really creating an

[1:13:46] out neighborly elements and really thinking about planning ... around

[1:13:50] these new sites to ensure that ... in community wellness

[1:13:55] for all so thinking ... particularly about ... the potential

[1:14:01] of a new ... a community center and thinking about

[1:14:06] it you know BC housing will be on the developing

[1:14:09] that but that would just be the building but what

[1:14:12] could the city work at the city lean into around

[1:14:14] that to ensure that that ... and I know part

[1:14:17] of that is it's adjacent to north park but also

[1:14:20] downtown but just thinking about how

[1:14:23] how ... potentially a Mason street between ... Quadra and

[1:14:29] Vancouver there is potential for some road closure park space

[1:14:33] there to build it thank you madam the space that

[1:14:36] could ... extend from the community center and just really

[1:14:40] thinking about how what a comprehensive up a plan for

[1:14:42] that and also runs ... on Balmoral where there will

[1:14:45] be some new I'm social housing there's been quite a

[1:14:47] bit a desire within the community to think about what

[1:14:50] kind of park let's and spaces could be developed around

[1:14:52] there to build bridges between the Mason street farm area

[1:14:55] and and that developments really again encourage ... at

[1:15:01] encouraged great ... additions to the neighborhood with the new

[1:15:04] neighbors ... and then also thinking about ...

[1:15:11] there you know what I last week I council we

[1:15:13] discussed some of the the robotic park in and community

[1:15:16] uses and ...

[1:15:20] it's not that is reflected with within this work but

[1:15:22] ... just wondering ... on page fifty nine under the

[1:15:27] plan city initiatives I think since since probably this was

[1:15:31] written there's been some changes to the strategic plans there

[1:15:34] would need to be some updates what you're up probably

[1:15:37] definitely aware of but just wondering if on that list

[1:15:41] would be would there also be the inclusion of ...

[1:15:43] investigating ... re envisioning that community use several athletic park

[1:15:49] could that would that be added to the list as

[1:15:50] well

[1:15:57] ... so with respect to ... that type of initiative

[1:16:00] I think the the level of detail that this plan

[1:16:03] is that is probably ... the probably more appropriate to

[1:16:06] focus on the future of long term use of rough

[1:16:09] at a park in this sort of vision development for

[1:16:12] that facility that has been discussed with council so ...

[1:16:15] as we look to the the financial plan ... in

[1:16:18] made opportunities for major initiatives in the coming years ...

[1:16:22] you'll see that staff identified that given all the discussion

[1:16:24] that we've had with council and in the last year

[1:16:28] so ... but I think the the sort of the

[1:16:31] spirit of the increased use and particularly ... communities across

[1:16:36] like park is is sort of woven into this but

[1:16:39] ... but as I say that this room larger initiative

[1:16:41] is that the the long term plan for that facility

[1:16:47] okay yeah I just I think there's I've just heard

[1:16:49] some comments to make set from the community to wanna

[1:16:51] see that really clearly reflected I will though it is

[1:16:54] woven definitely through the document just some ... that if

[1:16:57] it's free they feel it's really important to consider as

[1:16:59] part of their green space and and and part of

[1:17:01] the planning ... and then I just I really appreciated

[1:17:04] the comments made about at the need to protect ...

[1:17:09] rental at or aging or or the older rental stock

[1:17:12] as we're moving forward with this plan and and and

[1:17:15] also the comments around you know needing more multi family

[1:17:19] housing and and and rental residential areas and more potentially

[1:17:23] more density for some rental ... and looking at north

[1:17:27] park they have a lot of ... privately owned rental

[1:17:32] housing in SROs that are aging and kind of really

[1:17:35] represents a great deal of unprotected affordable housing in the

[1:17:39] city and I think I just wanted to make a

[1:17:42] point of saying how yeah it's gonna be really important

[1:17:44] within these next steps to ensure that we are able

[1:17:47] to protect those ... ... those building so I was

[1:17:52] actually just I guess my question is to miss his

[1:17:54] that if ... I'm just wondering where we're at at

[1:17:57] with ... market rental protection and revitalization project or policy

[1:18:02] sorry or specifically that the rental property licensing bylaw and

[1:18:06] just thinking ... thinking that as we're moving forward with

[1:18:10] that those those are going to be really key policies

[1:18:15]

[1:18:30] I'm

[1:18:31] councillor Potts near your question about the ... the rental

[1:18:34] business licensing bylaw we were hoping to bring that to

[1:18:37] you ... in the coming weeks but we've had a

[1:18:39] staff departure and so we will now be bringing that

[1:18:42] work to you in early September just to allow our

[1:18:44] new staff to get up to speed on the new

[1:18:45] provincial legislation regarding the residential tenancy act ... so we

[1:18:50] will have some advice ... on that in the coming

[1:18:52] months ... and we will have some other work starting

[1:18:56] ... later in the year we had hoped that we

[1:18:59] would ...

[1:19:00] we would restart and I project that we did start

[1:19:03] working on last year with respect to incentivizing ... new

[1:19:07] purpose built rental and so we're hoping to resume that

[1:19:10] work in the fall ... as well as the Mars

[1:19:13] pilot project which is to consider ... size making energy

[1:19:17] upgrades ... for rental buildings so yes all of the

[1:19:20] things are on our radar we're hoping to start those

[1:19:22] in the fall when we get stuffed up great great

[1:19:25] that's really exciting I think that ... yeah as we

[1:19:27] move forward that particular that protects that protects protection of

[1:19:31] existing affordable rentals going to be really important ...

[1:19:35] at the

[1:19:37] I guess one final question before I see the floor

[1:19:40] just wondering ... there's some elements within then but previous

[1:19:44] local area plan and how some of those initiatives that

[1:19:48] still ... cut ... might be carried forward and into

[1:19:53] to the next into the next phase of plantings this

[1:19:55] I just know that there was a strong comments around

[1:19:59] ... and maybe I'm not sure if this was hurt

[1:20:01] at all but ... at a desire for coal opposing

[1:20:04] within north park and also ... I'd like I'd mentioned

[1:20:08] ... planning around concentrations of social housing projects and I'm

[1:20:12] wondering is there ... I thought to house some of

[1:20:15] those might be carried through into the into the the

[1:20:17] station fan of of planning or ... are those kind

[1:20:21] of

[1:20:23] are they not ambition to cater

[1:20:29] thank you and through the acting mayor ... a ...

[1:20:35] I think you those are wonderful comments we've heard the

[1:20:37] same comments around ... ... building community around the social

[1:20:40] housing and embracing that we've heard that a lot in

[1:20:43] a and I hope we get to explore that as

[1:20:45] part of north park's identity in this next phase of

[1:20:47] engagement and ensure that it comes through very clearly in

[1:20:50] their plans so I think that element with

[1:20:53] be carried forward or brought to its next iteration through

[1:20:56] this planning process ... in terms of the coop housing

[1:20:59] ... I I would I would like to probably defer

[1:21:02] to one of my housing colleagues but I believe that's

[1:21:04] something that we would probably consider it a city wide

[1:21:06] scale ... in in ways that we can support that

[1:21:09] through broad housing policy rather than through neighbourhood plan specific

[1:21:12] to one area

[1:21:14] that certainly makes a lot of sense okay ... I

[1:21:18] think those are my questions ... for now but thanks

[1:21:21] again for the work on this

[1:21:24] consideration your next

[1:21:29] thank you

[1:21:31]

[1:21:32] just looking at them first of all I am sorry

[1:21:36] I agree with them

[1:21:38] ... one of the the broad changes that's proposed the

[1:21:43] ... the idea of increasing densities along arterials

[1:21:49] but in terms of implementation

[1:21:55] the following questions is looking at H.

[1:21:59] 3 of

[1:22:02] appendix

[1:22:06] which is in appendix B. I guess proposed changes

[1:22:11] looking at the

[1:22:14] basically the chart shows two sets of densities one showing

[1:22:20] approximate density which is under the official community plan and

[1:22:25] local area plans as human then a second things showing

[1:22:29] approximate bonus density

[1:22:31] ... which is ... and and saying inclusionary zoning and

[1:22:36] community amenity policy and those approximate bonus densities are basically

[1:22:43] double the approximate density so I guess my question is

[1:22:48] is this really a plan that that says ...

[1:22:54] we ... and this does two things inclusionary housing essentially

[1:22:59] I think is going to mean ... these are all

[1:23:03] rental buildings or and the community amenity policy A. I.

[1:23:08] I guess means they are all gonna pay in order

[1:23:12] to develop any other form of housing ... what is

[1:23:18] is this really a plan that's basically implementing rental only

[1:23:23] only zoning or is it a plan that's ... saying

[1:23:29] ... you can densify in these areas provided ... you

[1:23:35] make a contribution to cash in in effect a cash

[1:23:38] contribution given the size of the site site I think

[1:23:41] it's

[1:23:42] I think it's who were more likely to be talking

[1:23:44] cash contributions rather than physical amenities ... except in a

[1:23:49] few instances ... so so what is the plan really

[1:23:54] intending and is there enough certainty ... about what is

[1:24:00] intended that you're actually going to get development or will

[1:24:02] you just get along and the gauche Yeading ... processes

[1:24:08] as people try and figure out what we do what

[1:24:11] what density we really mean doing mean the little density

[1:24:15] under the plan or do we need I mean the

[1:24:17] big density under the bonus density

[1:24:24] thank you and directing their Dubow a D. the land

[1:24:28] use structured that the land use proposals within the local

[1:24:31] area plan are intended to work together with city wide

[1:24:34] policies and what we want to do is ... because

[1:24:39] if this is a ... looking for twenty years we

[1:24:42] want to remain flexible to housing needs as they evolve

[1:24:45] and city policies as they involve and so the ...

[1:24:49] densities proposed for the base density and for the higher

[1:24:52] density are meant to enable the application of the city's

[1:24:57] broader policies such as the inclusionary housing and community amenity

[1:25:01] policy ... which we know is updated from time to

[1:25:05] time as far as what the targets that that council

[1:25:07] would like to see it in new development are these

[1:25:11] two densities were chosen the ... the bonus density up

[1:25:15] to two to one floor space ratio is the current

[1:25:19] ... maximum density approximately that's in our official community plan

[1:25:24] and the two point five to one ... emerged in

[1:25:28] part from our economic analysis and urban design testing as

[1:25:32] a form that fits well within which usually wood frame

[1:25:35] construction now and provides us at the potential to really

[1:25:39] ... um C. benefits gained through the application of that

[1:25:44] inclusionary housing and community amenity policy ... but the we

[1:25:48] don't anticipate through local area plans having specific ... inclusionary

[1:25:54] housing or community amenity targets different than the city wide

[1:25:59] policies a council has enacted as well as you know

[1:26:03] policies that made him that that our plan to emerge

[1:26:05] from the housing strategy such as the family housing policy

[1:26:09] ... but these plans don't ... don't speak to rental

[1:26:13] only ... the to speak to looking perhaps of how

[1:26:16] we would apply rental residential rental ten years owning to

[1:26:20] select areas perhaps

[1:26:22] and

[1:26:24] you know that may not preclude the development of other

[1:26:27] housing types both at lower densities as we see sometimes

[1:26:30] or Stratotankers

[1:26:36] thank you I guess I would suggest that

[1:26:42] the the variety of objectives that we may be trying

[1:26:46] to achieve ... that is a rental family housing

[1:26:52] ... some some rental within a larger project is likely

[1:26:58] to ... produce ... a situation where we we don't

[1:27:05] get the response

[1:27:07] we expected as because people are trying to figure out

[1:27:10] what it is so we really want which may vary

[1:27:14] between different council members and and ...

[1:27:18] with one wanting family housing and one wanting low income

[1:27:23] some within combined with condos and some wanting all rental

[1:27:27] it's yeah I I I'm I'm concerned that ...

[1:27:32] in fact what what would you wear them

[1:27:37] we're defeating our objectives

[1:27:40] anyway

[1:27:42] the second thing that I I also agree with in

[1:27:47] principle is the ... some of the suggestions about ...

[1:27:54] the ...

[1:27:55] just trying to find the reference so people can look

[1:27:58] at it ... appendix CD ... age thirty one ...

[1:28:04] the the concept of ... the kind of thing you

[1:28:09] we want along arterials which is ...

[1:28:14]

[1:28:16] basically

[1:28:19] ... who closely tighter front setbacks of fairly generous ...

[1:28:24] rear setbacks and ... stepping back

[1:28:30] ... but again ... even even in the illustration we

[1:28:35] see ... from over one and a half story house

[1:28:39] ... adjacent to ... five story apartment building and and

[1:28:46] ... hi ask whether

[1:28:49] we shouldn't make some specific consideration for

[1:28:58] greater densification in those adjacent lots of very much as

[1:29:03] we as this council approved to that I think within

[1:29:06] the last two or three weeks when we had a

[1:29:08] very similar situation I guess long Quadra where somebody in

[1:29:13] the house behind came forward and said to we want

[1:29:17] to build a third house on the on the lot

[1:29:20] and we said okay that's an acceptable form of densification

[1:29:25] in in a location such as this

[1:29:28] and and I I I think that

[1:29:34] that is something that we should probably encourage ... at

[1:29:40] the same time hi I really have some of very

[1:29:45] deep concerns about one of the suggestions which is ...

[1:29:51] random intensification in the traditional neighborhoods ... which ... is

[1:30:00] seen as for example suggested on corner lots which I

[1:30:05] think is seen by this plan as being a way

[1:30:10] of producing rental accommodation in in quieter neighborhoods that I

[1:30:15] think would be seen by many people as as basically

[1:30:21] ... taking advantage of ... some of the amenities in

[1:30:25] a way that's not reproducible that is you build a

[1:30:29] high building ... within a traditional neighborhood where houses are

[1:30:33] one and a half stories high and you build a

[1:30:36] three story building you have great views great overlook into

[1:30:41] green space ... but

[1:30:44] if somebody else build another one adjacent you don't have

[1:30:47] those views are those seven

[1:30:51] ... that ... pleasant overlook anymore and also you can

[1:30:57] have low parking because he can spread your cars all

[1:31:00] along the street ... but again it's not reproducible and

[1:31:06] so I guess the the argument will be made and

[1:31:11] I've been interested in your comments that when you're suggesting

[1:31:14] very high densities

[1:31:17] a randomly spread through traditional neighborhoods you really allowing a

[1:31:25] ...

[1:31:27] these new units to take advantage of the amenities that

[1:31:31] are being provided by those ... traditional neighborhoods in a

[1:31:37] way that ... reduces their level of amenity that is

[1:31:43] you get the the nice overlook from the new buildings

[1:31:47] but the older building is now overlooked and it's the

[1:31:52] usefulness of its backyard is reduced

[1:31:56] ... I don't don't know if you'd like to comment

[1:31:59] on that

[1:32:05] thank you councillor in through the acting mayor of as

[1:32:09] one consideration for what's been proposed in that that the

[1:32:14] areas we've identified as mixed density areas and those are

[1:32:18] areas we heard from many stakeholders as places where people

[1:32:22] wanted to have opportunities to live in multi family housing

[1:32:26] be that strata rental ... you know certainly there's interest

[1:32:31] from from renters ... as well ... we looked carefully

[1:32:36] at through some act through some urban design testing what

[1:32:41] kind of densities can be achieved ... in these areas

[1:32:45] in a way that still allows step downs ... that

[1:32:49] allows the setbacks we're looking for not just on corridors

[1:32:52] but on all sites ... and so ... studios are

[1:32:58] being incorporated into the design guidelines certainly ... it's a

[1:33:01] question we'll be asking ... when we go out for

[1:33:05] the next round of engagement as far as the level

[1:33:07] of support ... for those ideas but ... we're definitely

[1:33:13] because of that that's where the density ... limit that

[1:33:17] we've proposed came from and we know it's one that

[1:33:20] maybe just on the cusp of viability for market rental

[1:33:24] housing ... but certainly supports ... the ability to slowly

[1:33:30] or perhaps I should say incrementally incorporate ...

[1:33:34] okay family housing in those areas

[1:33:38] thank you just one more sort of narrow question height

[1:33:42] he said I thought I saw somewhere in all this

[1:33:45] material and I didn't know where some suggestion that the

[1:33:49] ... Fernwood square ... would now who would in in

[1:33:56] ... trying to ... sort of increase the vitality of

[1:34:00] that square would now allow ... ... vehicles to transit

[1:34:06] either one way or the other along Gladstone west of

[1:34:12] west confirmed would

[1:34:15] is is that was that a suggestion ... was being

[1:34:18] made or not

[1:34:24] re ... re opening as you as you re opening

[1:34:28] the square on the west side

[1:34:30] oh no through the acting mayor sorry I

[1:34:33] that may be because of the perspective of the drawing

[1:34:36] that it is yeah I know that that

[1:34:39] no okay okay thank you

[1:34:43] anyone else

[1:34:45] okay mark oh yeah hi consuls and I'll tell thank

[1:34:51] you very much

[1:34:53] unlike the others all ... thank you for your of

[1:34:55] remarkable working presentations ... so much information and many of

[1:34:58] my questions have been asked and answered I just had

[1:35:00] a couple of small ones ...

[1:35:03] in the ... I think it's appendix B. the one

[1:35:05] that looks at what's coming

[1:35:08] ... you make a reference and I think it's on

[1:35:12] the second to last slide slide seven there's a reference

[1:35:16] there to modernizing parking requirements he did speak a little

[1:35:20] bit to this is your answer to council of this

[1:35:22] question earlier but I wonder if you could just explain

[1:35:25] a bit more about what you imagine that would look

[1:35:27] like

[1:35:32] thank you and through acting mayor I may start this

[1:35:34] one off of the from the the look like a

[1:35:36] planning perspective and if our transportation colleagues have ... broader

[1:35:41] at ways of addressing this but to two of the

[1:35:44] things that emerge specifically ... towards local area planning we

[1:35:48] talked about both parking management referring to the public ...

[1:35:52] parking supply to seventy thousand on street spaces we have

[1:35:56] and ... parking modernization of the requirements for new development

[1:36:02] and one thing we saw in our economic testing and

[1:36:06] in looking at urban design ... is that too two

[1:36:10] of the objectives a few of the practice rather of

[1:36:13] of the local area plans ... there's some tension with

[1:36:17] the way parking may or may not be treated ...

[1:36:20] and two of the forms in particular we were looking

[1:36:22] at is one supporting rental housing and to supporting ...

[1:36:26] debility for incremental or small scale change within villages and

[1:36:31] those both require a modernization of how we look at

[1:36:36] parking requirements ... in rental in particular we found that

[1:36:40] when you get really above one space per two units

[1:36:44] ... it becomes very financially difficult to achieve market rental

[1:36:49] housing ... but interestingly through variance ... we tend not

[1:36:54] to see much more parking than that if that much

[1:36:57] so it's very in line with ... what we're actually

[1:37:00] seeing recently the trend and so we look particularly at

[1:37:06] those two aspects of modernization I think a third area

[1:37:10] where this comes up and it speaks to compatibility with

[1:37:14] the neighborhoods is that ... one thing we've been hearing

[1:37:19] loud and clear in multiple engagements is that people value

[1:37:22] because we don't have lane ways in particular and most

[1:37:24] of the Tor yet that interior block pattern of green

[1:37:28] spaces where the the so

[1:37:29] ... is more than that the parts and ... so

[1:37:33] wanting to reiterate that without ... pushing a lot of

[1:37:38] pavement and surface parking to the rear of buildings but

[1:37:42] rather create a space that's both amenity for the residents

[1:37:45] ... that is a sensitive transition to what's around and

[1:37:50] that supports our urban forest and said those three aspects

[1:37:53] ... we recognize requires a modernization ... of the way

[1:37:58] we look at parking and I know that relates to

[1:38:01] go Victoria which I'll defer to my transportation colleagues to

[1:38:04] address

[1:38:07] with that

[1:38:09] it

[1:38:10] I was just curious because I wondered if when when

[1:38:12] some council will have to start grappling with the whole

[1:38:15] issue of on street parking and ... how that's used

[1:38:20] essentially under what circumstances some wondered if that was sort

[1:38:23] of part of your longer term analysis that sounds like

[1:38:27] we're not quite there yet

[1:38:31] okay

[1:38:39] okay

[1:38:42] through the mayor yes it is on thank you I

[1:38:44] haven't used this one yet ... I was just going

[1:38:47] to add a little bit ... you know we have

[1:38:49] been in front of council a couple of times where

[1:38:52] we have spoken about modernizing our our parking ... standards

[1:38:56] ... most recently ... we have ... applied for grant

[1:39:00] ... through UBCM to ... look at that we will

[1:39:03] be hearing whether we have gotten the grant ... by

[1:39:06] the end of August ... even if we don't get

[1:39:10] the ground it is an item that is is on

[1:39:12] our work program ... we're supposed to be reporting back

[1:39:15] to council there was a five year report back I

[1:39:19] think three and a half years ago so it is

[1:39:21] something that we're we're we're looking at and it's really

[1:39:23] about right sizing the parking that ... we have making

[1:39:27] sure that we're providing the right type of parking but

[1:39:30] also considering you know transportation demand measures and how we

[1:39:34] can start ... shifting the use of the different modes

[1:39:38] of transportation and ... changing attitudes towards transportation ... to

[1:39:43] make sure that were ... you know addressing climate challenges

[1:39:47] and all those very many things also recognizing that parking

[1:39:51] is very expensive to put into to ... homes so

[1:39:54] there's a lot of work it's going to be coming

[1:39:56] up soon ... hopefully it's something

[1:40:00] that we can start talking about this here and if

[1:40:02] not this year it'll be early next year right thank

[1:40:04] you for that yeah that's that's ... it is I

[1:40:06] think as councillor Thornton Joe once commented sometime ago parking

[1:40:10] seems to be the most consistently repeated question and concern

[1:40:13] is raised with virtually every issue I'm I just had

[1:40:16] one other question it's actually ... in attachment G. ...

[1:40:20] and it's on the the last page third page ...

[1:40:23] I couldn't find very many references and all of this

[1:40:25] material to services in consideration ... around people who have

[1:40:30] mobility impairments and other disabilities but in this document there

[1:40:33] is a reference ... this is the one that looks

[1:40:36] at future engagement there is a reference to two organizations

[1:40:39] that is city resource center and the accessibility advisory committee

[1:40:43] of both of which ... speak to the active transportation

[1:40:47] issues but my question is more along the lines of

[1:40:50] ... what type of engagement to imagine or maybe have

[1:40:54] you already done but mostly I think it's future looking

[1:40:57] on issues beyond just transportation for people with disabilities and

[1:41:02] does that consider accessibility for buildings structures open spaces green

[1:41:08] green ways that sort of thing because I can only

[1:41:10] find it the reference to transportation from just wondering if

[1:41:13] there's a consideration because beyond the

[1:41:25] thank you and through the acting mayor of

[1:41:28] with local area planning we we recognize and we have

[1:41:32] heard ... needs and desires and concerns around our housing

[1:41:37] stock ... and particularly as we look to the future

[1:41:41] and needs for accessibility and that's something that is one

[1:41:44] of the key actions in the housing strategy and so

[1:41:49] I think with with all local area plans you look

[1:41:52] to the evolution of ... policies or regulations around accessibility

[1:41:59] of housing of how we design public spaces of of

[1:42:03] the parking question again ... rather than trying to develop

[1:42:07] those at the neighborhood level but it's certainly something we

[1:42:11] hear about and we we understand where by that is

[1:42:15] differences on your radar for sure hello my questions I

[1:42:18] just to tell someone specifically I really appreciate the fact

[1:42:21] that you have a knowledge the all encompassing consideration of

[1:42:26] where we can make room for indigenous recognition throughout the

[1:42:31] city ... I think that it is really speaks well

[1:42:34] of staff's increasing of our priorities around that relationship building

[1:42:39] with the nations and so thank you for that in

[1:42:41] particular thanks for your work

[1:42:46] the concern through

[1:42:51] thank you very much ... like my colleague thank you

[1:42:53] very much ... ...

[1:42:57] really it could report and thank you work on this

[1:43:00] to I spent a lot time going over it and

[1:43:03] I'm fascinated by some of my comments ... the comments

[1:43:06] sent by my colleague said very interesting ... I don't

[1:43:11] talk to you but about the hell scientific corporate Dillinger

[1:43:15] if we if we may and ... it appeared to

[1:43:19] me from reading report that there have been significant changes

[1:43:23] in that area ... since some of the consultation was

[1:43:27] done and that would be with the seniors housing placed

[1:43:30] between Quadra and ... ... Blanchard is really significant and

[1:43:37] I'm wondering how one what we we may consider on

[1:43:42] consultation that area and M. two how this will impact

[1:43:47] on the neighborhood planning quarter delayed because ... I think

[1:43:52] it said clearly we we want that ... the scene

[1:43:56] is living in that area to to be integrated in

[1:43:58] the community make sure it is accessible I wonder if

[1:44:01] you could talk a little bit about that please

[1:44:07] thank you councillor and through acting mayor

[1:44:11] yes we we have heard a lot about the ...

[1:44:15] the summit housing ... throughout the discussions on Quadra village

[1:44:19] and it's certainly something that's important to an important consideration

[1:44:23] for the neighborhood stakeholders of both in regards to how

[1:44:29] the remaining ... sites around that site are viewed as

[1:44:33] far as nine fifty kings as far as any potential

[1:44:36] for ... changes at evergreen terrace R. Blanchard court but

[1:44:41] also how that summit site can integrate into the broader

[1:44:45] community and some of those ideas that have emerged I

[1:44:48] think concern ... the use of the laneway has more

[1:44:51] of a pedestrian friendly spaces ... as well as ...

[1:44:55] you know green waste throughout ... what what could become

[1:44:59] in some ways a super block if there's not permeability

[1:45:01] because we have this three large sites of nine fifty

[1:45:03] kings and the summit and BC housing so there has

[1:45:07] been ... some discussion of that and we we can

[1:45:10] certainly incorporate more specific discussion about how the summit itself

[1:45:15] is integrated into the neighborhood because it's fair to say

[1:45:18] we've probably heard more about how to sum it has

[1:45:21] impacted or is perceived to be impacting the neighborhood and

[1:45:23] a little bit about how the summit itself can integrate

[1:45:26] I mean I know what we talk about buildings here

[1:45:29] in and traditionally we do that but I think the

[1:45:32] people that live inside these buildings ... the key that

[1:45:35] we be looking and I'm I'm looking at accessibility moments

[1:45:38] in those days and I was thinking about it the

[1:45:41] temp it would be I think provide them

[1:45:45] ... a huge ... leadership role if we could start

[1:45:50] looking at them accessibility so that we can look at

[1:45:54] benches resting places within the area to ensure ... but

[1:45:58] not just resting places some ... for able bodied individuals

[1:46:03] I I saw a great term pick I think was

[1:46:07] on councillor Thornton-Joe's site that that part ... a bench

[1:46:11] that has them Hey bill T. for wheelchair to to

[1:46:15] fit into it I mean these are the kinds of

[1:46:17] things and and curbs and ... ... crosswalks and ...

[1:46:22] if we go into the into the corner village definitely

[1:46:26] the work that was done

[1:46:28] many years ago when the ... when the when it

[1:46:31] was re developed I think was about a million dollars

[1:46:34] and lighting and and develop in the quarter village there

[1:46:37] ... south of hillside ... anyone who spends any time

[1:46:42] in the quarter village will know that there is ...

[1:46:46] heavy pedestrian traffic between king and ...

[1:46:53] sorry pal side again so come and even though there

[1:46:57] is no crosswalk in the middle of that and that

[1:47:01] block people using it as a crosswalk and ... I

[1:47:05] wonder if we've we've we've looked at that ... ...

[1:47:08] and ... because I think at times it does become

[1:47:11] a little bit them in same with the frustration of

[1:47:14] people going through them alleged comment on that I'll keep

[1:47:18] going

[1:47:21] thank you councillor yes it's certainly something ... eight I

[1:47:26] may be guilty of being one of those people at

[1:47:28] one time in my life first

[1:47:30] there's certainly a desire line across hill side there and

[1:47:34] ... we've recognize that through the proposed greenway ... that

[1:47:39] said at the at the planet proposal is that the

[1:47:41] high level and so we haven't looked at you know

[1:47:45] exactly where across what might land or how where that

[1:47:48] fits in prioritize ation but have certainly looked at ...

[1:47:52] how people get across from the area of the summit

[1:47:55] in Blanchard courts to the north towards that green space

[1:47:58] to the south towards the community center ... and if

[1:48:01] ... a large agreement can be established there is a

[1:48:04] north south desire line for people

[1:48:07] I'm definitely ... the other thing I think I would

[1:48:10] like to to point out that since we have ...

[1:48:14] ... a significant number of people living in the in

[1:48:17] the summit it also gives the opportunity to look at

[1:48:22] ... creating accessible housing in that area as well since

[1:48:27] if we were to do the work to provide leadership

[1:48:30] I think you know like a leadership that ledge that

[1:48:33] is accessible ... to maybe go over and above us

[1:48:37] and we'd be talking about a little bit later today

[1:48:39] and one of the one of the applications coming before

[1:48:43] so that we can we can ... try to do

[1:48:46] some catch up on the the missing accessible ... rental

[1:48:52] spaces within the city of Victoria that I know this

[1:48:55] is been an issue so if we could

[1:48:58] consider that and go over about the PC billing correct

[1:49:01] and that is important and as you know that that

[1:49:03] includes widening door frames so that elevated them wheelchair accessible

[1:49:09] to you think again ... I also like to follow

[1:49:13] up on counselor Loveday sent comments ... and ... the

[1:49:18] Roxy theater and then the the comment about a cultural

[1:49:24] center I mean it can route ... it can route

[1:49:29] ... at the legend and and really build around at

[1:49:32] this age and I ... councillor Isaac will be familiar

[1:49:37] with this the gas station theatre in Winnipeg ... up

[1:49:41] there and in the villages ... with the took a

[1:49:44] gas station and changed into a theater and it really

[1:49:47] did make it a significant cultural center and really added

[1:49:51] to the E. D. the idea of the village and

[1:49:55] I would hope that we would then consider some of

[1:49:58] the work that's being done now ... in some of

[1:50:01] the new features that are ... arts spaces is going

[1:50:05] in the day they've they've done it well actually and

[1:50:09] ... in London England but we never any kind of

[1:50:12] code onto it that is they have place ... the

[1:50:17] first of all they go down ... deeper into in

[1:50:22] in in in in those situations I've done that and

[1:50:25] that it definitely able to Sondheim in New York ...

[1:50:30] because really ... you don't need lots of light into

[1:50:33] in that the affect you wanna try to avoid that

[1:50:36] and and also for sound that but they they tend

[1:50:39] to build extensive either office space or ... housing puppets

[1:50:44] that is something that could cook could be done and

[1:50:48] again obviously making accessible and ... I would I would

[1:50:52] hope that we would look at that as a ...

[1:50:55] as a generator of ...

[1:50:58] well revenue generators ... traffic foot traffic it to go

[1:51:04] in that area in that and that we would also

[1:51:06] ensure that if we're gonna develop how ... how cycling

[1:51:10] master plan in that area that we we we didn't

[1:51:13] we would consider accommodating making sure we have significant ...

[1:51:17] bicycle parking and and so on I think that's very

[1:51:21] very important public parking that that safe and secure

[1:51:25]

[1:51:30] and ... so now having a hard time reading my

[1:51:34] own writing ...

[1:51:40] yeah from what

[1:51:43] if if you if you look at the hillside corridor

[1:51:47] little bit more and I know that we have the

[1:51:50] the the the quarter village and then we go up

[1:51:52] we have some retail that we've been looking at on

[1:51:55] the north side there do you see that actually maintaining

[1:51:59] their in in you know ten twenty years or are

[1:52:02] we can look to to redevelop that into more ...

[1:52:06] suitable ... housing and ... you know that that was

[1:52:11] a key thing there and then also as we get

[1:52:15] into I know near north park as well there the

[1:52:20] the church there on ...

[1:52:24] snow Cloverdale that point was to come

[1:52:27] sorry no call

[1:52:30] right up to the police station

[1:52:32] mmhm

[1:52:34] yes count only started but that the just we've got

[1:52:38] awful lot of home parking lots around that area we

[1:52:41] is there anything any vision on ... on developing that

[1:52:46] in it's really funny because one funny it's sad because

[1:52:49] I I look at the I spent quite a lot

[1:52:51] of time in that area and I look at the

[1:52:54] ... the amount of ... need for housing and I

[1:52:59] and I look at the amount of

[1:53:01] parking space that that's there that that really is only

[1:53:05] utilized during special events or ... on Sundays what what

[1:53:10] do we have planned we have any idea what we

[1:53:13] want to encourage in that area

[1:53:17] especially when we look into mixed use housing

[1:53:37] sorry my colleague and I were just trying to think

[1:53:40] of which parking lots where he were thinking of what

[1:53:42] is parking although like ... from set this the church

[1:53:47] parking and the paperwork in this room to see on

[1:53:50] the corner then you've got to come

[1:53:53] ... there was a development there but ... that further

[1:53:58] out this all that parking ... Robbins parking them when

[1:54:02] you go around the corner on Carter street there is

[1:54:05] more parking

[1:54:13] sort of throwback thank you

[1:54:15] no no thank you we were just conferring ... but

[1:54:18] I I believe ... and and through the at the

[1:54:21] acting mayor I believe ... those are but you know

[1:54:24] as he pointed out there there there private parking lots

[1:54:27] aside I know the city has one or well these

[1:54:30] public parking at the arena as well as next to

[1:54:33] the royal athletic park but with this private ...

[1:54:37] yes with with extensive private parking lots ... certainly the

[1:54:40] land use vision does allow for the addition of housing

[1:54:45] in that area as part of the shoulder of our

[1:54:48] downtown core area ... it did the current design guidelines

[1:54:52] which we do you know what would anticipate continuing to

[1:54:55] speak to sensitivity towards the landmark buildings at the landmark

[1:54:59] historic churches in that area as far as the the

[1:55:03] massing and and and design of those buildings but it

[1:55:06] is an area that's looked at for housing opportunity subject

[1:55:10] to the

[1:55:11] policies of the city and so it's certainly something ...

[1:55:15] and might make housing colleagues ... it could probably speak

[1:55:18] better to this but I do believe there's an action

[1:55:20] within the housing strategy to continue dialogue with non profits

[1:55:24] ... and faith based landowners who often find themselves with

[1:55:28] large sites and ... may want to do something as

[1:55:31] far as the mission of supporting ... housing for people

[1:55:36] so that's certainly a possibility that's ... entertained in these

[1:55:39] plans

[1:55:41] great to come thank you those are my comments for

[1:55:43] now I am as we are on the table again

[1:55:47] on the same me pick up a couple more thank

[1:55:49] you for answering my questions I appreciate it

[1:55:52] okay before I leave to cross so I said I

[1:55:55] would I have some questions so I haven't spoken yet

[1:56:01]

[1:56:02] a

[1:56:04] a lot of questions that I have has been already

[1:56:07] asking but I want to go back in terms of

[1:56:10] some of the concerns ... gentrification in the neighborhood so

[1:56:16] what impact it will have

[1:56:19] and I'm wondering because some of the neighborhoods such as

[1:56:23] part their village on Spain Rutan those neighbourhoods there are

[1:56:28] a lot of the snow culture on businesses and base

[1:56:32] and has there been any consideration and or engagements with

[1:56:38] them ... because what I've

[1:56:41] seen in other cities when big department happen and neighborhoods

[1:56:46] change there's always a displacement of ethnocultural businesses so has

[1:56:52] the ... wondering has the stuff put into consideration to

[1:56:56] those businesses and X. and what was the perhaps if

[1:57:01] you could speak more on the details

[1:57:04] reports ... and because it indicated it would be required

[1:57:09] more business because of the growth and how do you

[1:57:12] retain the existing businesses as well

[1:57:19] I think you acting mayor Dubow we did have

[1:57:23] ... I believe one or at least one or possibly

[1:57:26] two if my memory serves me consultations with the business

[1:57:30] owners at a quarter village ... we hosted a it

[1:57:34] was in the first round of engagement we hosted a

[1:57:37] business and service providers breakfast ... and we did have

[1:57:41] you know probably ten or twelve ... business owners come

[1:57:45] ... I believe there was ... you don't wasn't all

[1:57:48] of the businesses it wasn't all of the ethno cultural

[1:57:51] businesses ... we had I believe camas books there and

[1:57:55] ... you know some of that to the different small

[1:57:58] businesses ... and it's certainly something we've kept in mind

[1:58:02] we can continue that out rates ... often with businesses

[1:58:06] and find ... it may require going door to door

[1:58:08] at times or at the very least giving people breakfast

[1:58:11] before the business opens ... but we are ... looking

[1:58:16] at ... policies that we hope can allow for the

[1:58:21] continuation of small business ... spaces and not to encouraging

[1:58:28] ...

[1:58:30] large excuse me

[1:58:32] large scale redevelopment within those parts of quarter village that

[1:58:36] already have ... find great fabric of building ownership so

[1:58:41] that those spaces can continue to be there as well

[1:58:44] as ... how we can provide some of the public

[1:58:48] realm that can support what they do

[1:58:51] and thank you very much for that ... thanks for

[1:58:55] all the walk on the parts and concise it

[1:59:00] thanks

[1:59:02] just an aside Doug councillor Rangers correct I do recall

[1:59:05] the gestation theater I had my tempers the party they're

[1:59:08] watching a rendition of the headless horseman and my birthday's

[1:59:13] in mid January and my mom actually reminded me a

[1:59:16] few years ago that it was so cold that the

[1:59:19] that to prevent the engine blocks from freezing solid they

[1:59:22] all had to leave their vehicles idling in front of

[1:59:25] the theater so that was my tenth birthday sort of

[1:59:29] in the nineteen eighties so I guess climate action consciousness

[1:59:32] was to look at what's today but I think you

[1:59:35] councillor Andrew for that

[1:59:37] allowing me to reminisce

[1:59:40] question to staff ... similar to some of the questions

[1:59:43] that other colleagues have asked specific to ... housing affordability

[1:59:49] and looking at some policies that I believe ms whose

[1:59:52] ... has drawn our attention to previously ... in Vancouver

[1:59:57] I guess what options would council have to mandate affordability

[2:00:02] essentially say that for any property owners to access additional

[2:00:06] densities it would have to be either non market or

[2:00:11] a housing that had some affordability baked in and then

[2:00:14] in the absence of those provisions ... the the previous

[2:00:18] much lower densities would be all that would be available

[2:00:22] because that would seem to be an approach that I

[2:00:24] think Vancouver has followed ... that could be a way

[2:00:28] to ensure that if we do have densification on any

[2:00:30] of these corridors ... that it it achieves the city's

[2:00:36] affordability objectives rather than ... potentially could contributing to gentrification

[2:00:42] which can undermine affordability and inclusivity

[2:00:55] thank you councillor and head through the acting mayor ...

[2:00:57] ... I will ... start the question and if there's

[2:01:00] any other additions around policy or legal framework cell I

[2:01:03] look to ... ms Hudson

[2:01:07] there's different ways we can approach ... the policy framework

[2:01:11] here and and do the way we have ... proposed

[2:01:15] in these key directions is to continue to utilize ...

[2:01:20] the city's approach to density quote unquote density bonus which

[2:01:24] is to seek

[2:01:26] either inclusion area housing or community amenity consistent with that

[2:01:30] city wide policy ... there are a few other ...

[2:01:34] draft policies put into these documents of for example ...

[2:01:38] one of the proposed policies as an intern policy speaks

[2:01:41] to where these plans are proposing additional densities ... considered

[2:01:47] consideration of additional densities ... and not to really an

[2:01:50] act that

[2:01:52] until we have a chance to update that rental retention

[2:01:55] and replacement policy in the OCP ... as far as

[2:01:58] mandating ... we can certainly policies that speak to what

[2:02:02] sorts of special needs or ... what sets of public

[2:02:06] benefits are are desired with redevelopment ... but as far

[2:02:10] as mandating it that ... you know perhaps through a

[2:02:14] pres owning format ... would be one way of ...

[2:02:18] you know having two different ... densities that are available

[2:02:21] to an applicant ... but there are certain ... public

[2:02:25] benefits that need to be provided for that and I

[2:02:28] don't know if ms Hudson has additional legal considerations staff

[2:02:32] to add to that

[2:02:36] perhaps next week when council moves towards motions ... I

[2:02:39] I think I would be contemplating some sort of a

[2:02:43] ... an amendment or some direction to try to have

[2:02:47] staff Britain incorporate those options into the draft plans of

[2:02:51] yep please owning a differential density based on the ...

[2:02:55] the type of tenure particularly the provision of affordability so

[2:03:00] as staff have additional information today or perhaps they could

[2:03:02] turn their mind to what that could look like with

[2:03:05] council considers it next week

[2:03:07] ... through the acting mayor maybe I would just add

[2:03:10] that as part of the next phase of local are

[2:03:12] you planning we are going to turn our minds to

[2:03:15] ... zoning updates that would help implement these policies and

[2:03:19] so we will be very much thinking about strategically what

[2:03:22] areas of the neighborhood would make sense to ... perhaps

[2:03:26] ... update the zoning now to

[2:03:30] ... incentivize things like ... purpose built rental but which

[2:03:35] parts of these villages do we want to maybe ...

[2:03:37] still directed through rezoning process so that we can negotiate

[2:03:41] for those other things like affordable affordable housing inclusionary housing

[2:03:45] so so those are definitely the things that we're gonna

[2:03:47] be thinking about as part of this next phase

[2:03:52] okay ... Kingsley and secondly would require and to accept

[2:04:00] the report because of the motions on other things we'd

[2:04:03] be interested in next week so how do we move

[2:04:05] forward

[2:04:08] ... actioner board that's just that's ... you're calling council's

[2:04:12] if council wishes to adopting resolutions today

[2:04:16] and it was a decided to adopt and next week

[2:04:20] and my understanding so to end this part of the

[2:04:25] agenda do we accept the report on point of order

[2:04:30] I think I think with our staff for saying it's

[2:04:32] council's decision they don't want to sway would take a

[2:04:35] positive motion of council probably just to postpone consideration of

[2:04:39] or will be delighted to postpone this item or to

[2:04:42] refer it to next week

[2:04:45] could we just accept item one

[2:04:48] which is 6

[2:04:51] because that is an option of the discussion during the

[2:04:54] gender like so I said a point of order now

[2:04:57] it throws the speakers list in limbo but ... just

[2:04:59] to continue I could be added to the speakers list

[2:05:02] whenever is appropriate councillor Dubow allowed to so going back

[2:05:07] to to the question

[2:05:10] would it be up to the councils either to move

[2:05:13] the motion to refer the report to next week or

[2:05:20] what would be the best procedurally two tied up this

[2:05:24] so that the motion as could be and debated next

[2:05:28] week

[2:05:30] that's L. three routing merit I would suggest there's a

[2:05:33] couple different ways councillor comes out so it really depends

[2:05:36] on council's preference receiving the reports one option and that

[2:05:40] would certainly not preclude council from discussing it again if

[2:05:43] it wishes are passing any additional motions if it wishes

[2:05:46] another option could be to a motion to refer as

[2:05:49] you suggested

[2:05:51] thank you I would it's up in the floor before

[2:05:55] we move Animotion concise it

[2:05:58] I guess I'd like to propose that this matter be

[2:06:00] referred to next week's committee of the whole meeting second

[2:06:05] and to motivate ... I I fully anticipate that I

[2:06:08] will be in a position to receive but just because

[2:06:10] there are a couple of key neighbourhood reps who served

[2:06:13] on the working group and ... the haven't been able

[2:06:16] to get back to me because of the tight timeline

[2:06:18] I would have more comfort and just a complete referral

[2:06:21] and then considering receipt as well as the other recommendations

[2:06:25] at next week's meeting

[2:06:26] okay I think we ready to vote on that

[2:06:31] in favor

[2:06:35] a post

[2:06:37] okay unanimous in the past so we will be right

[2:06:40] I will have process for five minutes

[2:06:52] I think we have

[2:06:53] so we we had back to

[2:06:58] the next P. 2 D. at the presentation

[2:07:03] 4 I've at plus to the stuff

[2:07:09] thank you acting mad my name is Charlotte Wain ...

[2:07:13] I'm a senior planner of design in the development services

[2:07:16] division

[2:07:18] this proposal is to rezone the one ha city blocks

[2:07:20] to a site specific zoning in order to construct a

[2:07:23] multi phased mixed use development including commercial daycare and office

[2:07:28] use with purpose built residential went above the proposed densities

[2:07:32] six point one floor space ratio for the nine hundred

[2:07:35] block of the street six point two to one floor

[2:07:37] space ratio for ten forty five days street

[2:07:40] I do have quite a lengthy presentation so I may

[2:07:43] poles on a few slides just to help you digest

[2:07:46] what information is on the screen so just be aware

[2:07:49] that hi ... I will be doing this deliberately

[2:07:54] so the subject property is located centrally in a hurry

[2:07:56] screen neighbourhood outlined in green on this slide

[2:08:02] the application fax number properties ninety three and nine eleven

[2:08:06] young street nine ten view street and twelve and five

[2:08:09] and twelve or nine quarter street and this is referred

[2:08:12] to as the nine hundred block of H. street from

[2:08:13] here on in under the other after the other side

[2:08:16] to ten forty five yet street shown on the right

[2:08:18] of the slide

[2:08:21] this slide shows some of the surrounding buildings and how

[2:08:24] was green and adjacent downtown neighborhoods and some visualisations ...

[2:08:28] that I'm sure you're familiar with

[2:08:33] on the nine hundred block the property contains two major

[2:08:36] tenants including London drugs amok on Yates as well as

[2:08:39] a number of smaller retailers residential building with fifteen rental

[2:08:43] apartments is shown in photograph three

[2:08:46] which is the bottom left hand for today

[2:08:51] on ten forty five A. street this is currently occupied

[2:08:54] by a car dealership which is not as hard storage

[2:08:57] under a satiated surface parking

[2:09:03] the official community plan or OCP identifies the property in

[2:09:07] the core residential designation which supports diverse housing types including

[2:09:11] live mid and high rise multi unit residential and mixed

[2:09:14] use buildings up to approximately twenty stories

[2:09:18] one of the strategic directions is to accommodate fifty percent

[2:09:20] of Victoria's population growth within the urban core by twenty

[2:09:23] forty one

[2:09:26] the downtown core area plan or D. cap supports multi

[2:09:30] residential development at the maximum density of five point five

[2:09:33] to one floor space ratio and a maximum height of

[2:09:35] forty five meters to ten forty five a street on

[2:09:38] up to fifty meters of the nine hundred block of

[2:09:40] H. street the application does exceed these height and density

[2:09:44] however the proposal does exceed other aspects of the cap

[2:09:47] through the provision of shorter more human scale podiums with

[2:09:50] slender towers set back up of generous building separation distances

[2:09:53] between the towers

[2:09:57] the proposal was initiated prior to the pandemic so public

[2:10:00] meeting was held in December twenty nineteen through the design

[2:10:03] revision process the heightened density increased and so second coat

[2:10:07] meeting was triggered and this went through the online process

[2:10:10] in addition to these meetings the applicant how to more

[2:10:13] consultation events and details are touching a package for council's

[2:10:16] consideration

[2:10:20] the following slides and explain the conceptual design design submitted

[2:10:22] in association in association with the rezoning application

[2:10:28] the applicant has included a rezoning booklet which is been

[2:10:31] used to assess the general messing density streetscape views and

[2:10:35] context of the proposal this seventies on design analysis helps

[2:10:39] to demonstrate the relative merits associated with the proposed messing

[2:10:42] as part of a comprehensively designed site

[2:10:48] these benefits include improved building separation distances greatest street setback

[2:10:52] distances humans go boating podium and the more consistent and

[2:10:56] thoughtful distribution of density as demonstrated in this Mustang typology

[2:11:00] study

[2:11:03] this slide shows the urban design strategies that have been

[2:11:05] used to inform the proposed messing and site layout and

[2:11:08] further details including the reason booklet

[2:11:14] this is an important slide to Shea as it demonstrates

[2:11:16] how the proposed house have been thoughtfully place to be

[2:11:19] offset from existing and proposed buildings as well as providing

[2:11:22] generous spacing between the towers within the development the proposal

[2:11:26] exceeds current and emerging D. cap standards with the distances

[2:11:30] between towers ranging from twenty three meters to seventy six

[2:11:33] meters

[2:11:36] a design manual is included as part of the submission

[2:11:39] which includes a series of site specific design guidelines to

[2:11:41] provide assurances that the important design criteria listed on this

[2:11:44] slide we'll be matching concurrent of future development applications

[2:11:49] an official community plan amendment is required to reference these

[2:11:52] guidelines and develop planetary which covers a site as well

[2:11:56] as to allow the proposed increase in height heightened density

[2:12:00] this design manual is comprehensive and well developed although if

[2:12:04] you don't a specs do require further clarification and refinement

[2:12:08] and this is listed in the staff recommendation the version

[2:12:11] presented today is the result of a Catholic considered to

[2:12:13] be processed by staff

[2:12:17] the proposal is comprised of two size they're intended to

[2:12:20] be delivered in two or three phases ten forty five

[2:12:23] eighth street is proposed as a first phase we seek

[2:12:26] to increase the density to six point two twelve floor

[2:12:28] space ratio and increase the committee tied to twenty one

[2:12:31] stories further details of this we discussed later in the

[2:12:34] presentation

[2:12:36] for the nine hundred block of a street the proposed

[2:12:38] increase density to six point one floor space ratio and

[2:12:41] increase the committee height to thirty two stories

[2:12:44] central to the nine hundred block would be high quality

[2:12:46] public plaza linking ace in the streets

[2:12:51] this slide shows the proposed heights in a street scape

[2:12:53] elevation looking north on the right to the two towers

[2:12:57] proposed at ten forty five yet street at twenty and

[2:12:59] twenty one stories on the western side of the nine

[2:13:02] hundred block above the podium is a single tower Tousey

[2:13:06] which is it twenty nine stories on the eastern portion

[2:13:09] of the nine hundred block this would contain two residential

[2:13:11] towers above at thirty two stories the tower D. and

[2:13:15] twenty stories Patel AT

[2:13:18] although the proposal does exceed the maximum height sets out

[2:13:20] to the relevant policy and this is shown by the

[2:13:23] dashed lines here on the slide

[2:13:25] it does configure the proposed towers and situated varies the

[2:13:28] heights to provide interest in the skyline which something encouraged

[2:13:31] by the guidelines

[2:13:34] the design manual provide design from which is for future

[2:13:36] phases and then for staff proposed to incorporate the proposed

[2:13:39] building height into the amendments the OCP FM place designation

[2:13:44] but we recommend a more cautionary approach to limit the

[2:13:46] maximum building heights in the site specific zoning to be

[2:13:49] consistent with the ACP which supports buildings up to twenty

[2:13:52] stories

[2:13:54] this means that the concurrent event permit with variance application

[2:13:57] and any future development permit application will include a height

[2:14:00] variance I require council consideration on an opportunity for public

[2:14:04] comment

[2:14:07] the following slide to focus on the land use open

[2:14:09] space and housing highlights of the proposal

[2:14:14] the three men uses a proposed the main uses of

[2:14:16] the proposal ... a rental residential with indoor and outdoor

[2:14:20] amenities retail office of public open space ten forty five

[2:14:25] yet street includes a daycare with associated outdoor space the

[2:14:29] next slide demonstrates the distribution of those uses

[2:14:35] except right down of units for later phases has not

[2:14:37] yet been determined that the first phase of the development

[2:14:40] would contain approximately five hundred ten units in a makeshift

[2:14:43] studios one bedroom two bedroom three bedroom and townhouse units

[2:14:47] which would include a total of twenty three affordable units

[2:14:50] that meet the city's median income brackets

[2:14:53] this slide shows the distribution of rental apartments and town

[2:14:55] houses on the townhouses are highlighted in the Reds read

[2:14:59] portion of this slide are located along the street in

[2:15:02] Vancouver street

[2:15:07] this slide shows the distribution of commercial uses on the

[2:15:09] ground floor

[2:15:10] and the commercial retail and space includes three major tenants

[2:15:13] and saves a small local shops and services

[2:15:21] a third party language analysis was conducted and is attached

[2:15:23] for council's consideration the report analyzed three different scenarios a

[2:15:27] setup in the policy firstly as of right zoning entitlement

[2:15:32] second scenario is the cheaper density the OCP based level

[2:15:36] of three to one of I saw and that's not

[2:15:38] is the proposed development

[2:15:41] the report concludes that the proposed rezoning does not create

[2:15:44] an increase in land value that can be used to

[2:15:46] fund amenities under affordable housing and this is due to

[2:15:49] a number of factors the subject property has a high

[2:15:52] existing achievable density under current zoning

[2:15:55] the value of a completed rental buildings building passed by

[2:15:58] foot is significantly lower than a compatible strata building despite

[2:16:01] having similar cost to construct on the page rental project

[2:16:05] requires concrete construction

[2:16:07] but as mentioned earlier the applicant the application does provide

[2:16:10] twenty three affordable residential units that would meet the city

[2:16:13] Victoria definition for median income households a public plaza which

[2:16:17] would be maintained by the applicant public realm improvements beyond

[2:16:20] the city's basic standards and space for daycare we do

[2:16:24] have the consultant available on the line to answer any

[2:16:26] questions on this topic should they come up

[2:16:30] central to the request for the increasing heightened density is

[2:16:33] the provision of a central plaza this slide shows the

[2:16:36] policy context in the D. cap which requires a plaza

[2:16:39] between eight hundred and twelve hundred meters in size the

[2:16:42] proposed exceeds the policy by including a plaza that that

[2:16:45] will be a minimum of sixteen hundred square meters

[2:16:48] although the detailed design has not been determined at this

[2:16:50] stage the next few slides demonstrated conceptual design of the

[2:16:53] space

[2:16:56] the closest is divided into three distinct elements the eight

[2:16:59] plaza containing a flexible space to accommodate a variety of

[2:17:02] events the Harris green terrace containing says in a room

[2:17:07] on the view street green containing alone diarrhea which would

[2:17:10] have more of a residential focus

[2:17:12] the total size would be a minimum of sixteen hundred

[2:17:14] square meters which is roughly equal to the size of

[2:17:17] fashion square between Wall Street and Langley street in addition

[2:17:21] to the plaza the applicant has committed to providing a

[2:17:23] public consultation valued at no less than three and fifty

[2:17:26] thousand dollars

[2:17:30] this slide shows the different elements of the plaza in

[2:17:32] a rented fee with the H. street plaza being more

[2:17:35] urban in nature and this will be flanked by commercial

[2:17:37] uses and then and the lower image the shares of

[2:17:40] the street green and Harris being terrace which would have

[2:17:42] more residential focus surrounded by townhouses

[2:17:46] for

[2:17:50] this slide shows the conceptualization PhD plaza

[2:17:57] and here we can see the plazas and intended to

[2:17:59] be a flexible space that could accommodate a variety of

[2:18:01] programming events throughout the year including food festivals and holiday

[2:18:05] markets

[2:18:10] this slide shows a rendering much of how the plaza

[2:18:11] maybe automated

[2:18:15] and this slide shows a rendering much of the street

[2:18:17] frontage along a street which would include the detailed design

[2:18:20] and installation of the two way protected bike lane we

[2:18:23] should be secured through legal agreements

[2:18:26] the delivery the plaza cannot be realized until the last

[2:18:29] phase of development as the applicant has noted that the

[2:18:31] phasing lines are dictated by existing structures on site the

[2:18:35] recommended motion provides the necessary wording to ensure the plazas

[2:18:38] delivered concurrently with the final phase of development and legal

[2:18:41] agreements would be drafted to ensure the city is provided

[2:18:44] with the security to ensure high quality construction and ultimately

[2:18:48] is delivering

[2:18:51] the next slide demonstrates the view and shot a studies

[2:18:54] and how the impacts on the neighborhood would be three

[2:18:57] ... view and shot a studies

[2:19:00] this slide shows the visual impact of the proposed development

[2:19:03] from the Songhees point which is shown above an image

[2:19:06] on the on the bottom shows at the proposal looking

[2:19:09] south along the street

[2:19:17] and this slide recently approved under construction developments shown in

[2:19:20] purple with the subjects I outlined in blue

[2:19:24] the agreement shows a view along a street looking east

[2:19:26] on the lower images show view looking south along cook

[2:19:28] street

[2:19:34] and in this study the upper image shows the subjects

[2:19:36] blood site looking north along a street on the lower

[2:19:39] end shows the visual impact of the proposal on the

[2:19:41] city skyline when viewed from cook street looking south

[2:19:45] and other recently approved ... developments will say Shane and

[2:19:50] with the text in black on this slide

[2:19:55] this image shows a shutter impacts of the proposed limping

[2:19:57] at the summer solstice

[2:20:00] and this slide shows a shot impacts of the proposal

[2:20:02] during the equinox

[2:20:07] in addition to the shutters studies the design manual includes

[2:20:10] better shot analysis to test the proposed design guidelines and

[2:20:14] this includes objectives to minimize the negative impacts of building

[2:20:17] such as excessive shade shuttering improves he preaches on aims

[2:20:21] to maximize access to natural light and views

[2:20:24] the proposed guidelines established Pacific Sundays to ensure that the

[2:20:27] current and future proposals meet these objectives

[2:20:32] to verify the Russian of the increased height above policy

[2:20:34] standards stuff requested a robust comparison the existing guidelines

[2:20:41] this slide demonstrates what could be achieved under the current

[2:20:43] account guidelines which is shown by the black dashed line

[2:20:47] this is essentially results in a total of okay podium

[2:20:51] the red areas show the proposed street facades and the

[2:20:54] blueberries on top of the tower should the additional density

[2:20:56] required to accommodate more human scaled lower podium heights

[2:21:06] this slide shows the additional views of the same analysis

[2:21:08] from quarter street and cook street

[2:21:13] the stuff also requested amassing scenario that followed the T.

[2:21:15] CAP guidelines at densities of five point five to one

[2:21:18] I saw a six point one if I saw which

[2:21:20] is shining green employee compared to the proposed development with

[2:21:24] total towers in lower podiums which is shown in pink

[2:21:28] these studies including the rezoning booklet although visually complex and

[2:21:32] quite difficult to tell on the screen here they do

[2:21:35] serve to demonstrate that a lot of podium would benefit

[2:21:37] the public realm through G. stating

[2:21:43] to conclude for the rezoning aspect to the proposal if

[2:21:45] this includes a significant addition of rental housing and commercial

[2:21:48] space to the having screen neighbourhood and includes the provision

[2:21:51] of twenty three units of affordable housing as well as

[2:21:53] a significant public plaza the proposed is consistent with the

[2:21:56] official community plan except for the able to understand height

[2:21:59] being sought however a rational consistent with the goals and

[2:22:02] objectives of the OCP has been provided stuff that for

[2:22:06] recommend supporting the rezoning and OCP amendment with the conditions

[2:22:09] set out in the report

[2:22:11] and I'll move on to focus on the company development

[2:22:13] variance application which I need plus the first phase of

[2:22:16] development at ten forty five eighth street

[2:22:20] this slide shows the ground floor plan which includes a

[2:22:23] mix of retail parking and ground floor residential uses location

[2:22:27] on the ground floor is a generous parking in loading

[2:22:29] area at the rear access to few street which is

[2:22:32] in close and therefore subject to floor area as a

[2:22:35] result the proposed density for this portion is six point

[2:22:37] two to one floor space ratio

[2:22:40] this slide shows the site layout five hundred ten units

[2:22:43] are proposed as part of the space with twenty three

[2:22:45] these being affordable housing that meets the definition for median

[2:22:48] incomes

[2:22:49] big classes access is proposed off the streets and residential

[2:22:52] lucky lobbies a proposed updates and cook street

[2:22:59] three levels underground parking proposed and help mitigate some of

[2:23:02] the anticipated parking shortfall a number of mitigation measures as

[2:23:06] detailed in the slide of being proposed this includes three

[2:23:09] kasha vehicles and parking stills a hundred sixty nine caution

[2:23:12] memberships for electric vehicle charging stations and long term end

[2:23:16] of trip facilities these are considered to be acceptable I

[2:23:20] will be secured to a legal agreement

[2:23:24] details are proposed at twenty twenty one stories which is

[2:23:27] one story above the maximum height prescribed in the OCP

[2:23:30] in six stories above the maximum height prescribed anti cap

[2:23:33] as described earlier variance above twenty stories and sixty meters

[2:23:37] is required since the proposal has in court cooperated and

[2:23:40] since the proposal has incorporated small floor plate place a

[2:23:43] generous how separation to mitigate the perceived messing the proposed

[2:23:47] height variance is considered supportable

[2:23:50] events related to high to the height of the rooftop

[2:23:52] structure is also proposed the staff recommendation includes requesting this

[2:23:56] aspect of the design be reconsidered or otherwise mitigated

[2:24:01] this slide shows East West elevations

[2:24:05] the proposed materials are Mr brick spandrel panels a metal

[2:24:09] panels which is generally consistent with the design guidelines

[2:24:14] a number streetscape improvements are proposed and listed in the

[2:24:16] rezoning of staff report among the improvements a new Boulevard

[2:24:20] trees rain gardens on yet street and P. street on

[2:24:23] the design and installation of new protected bike lane on

[2:24:26] the street all of which will be secure by legal

[2:24:28] agreement prior to public hearing

[2:24:31] a small plaza with seating is proposed at the intersection

[2:24:33] of yet street and cook street highlighted in red hair

[2:24:36] opportunities opportunities exist to create entrances from the retail unit

[2:24:40] on to the space which would improve its usability and

[2:24:43] show the area adds to the vibrancy of the street

[2:24:48] one level to the proposal includes private amenity courtyard for

[2:24:51] residents and an outdoor play area the satiated proposed which

[2:24:54] is associated with the proposed a cap

[2:24:58] on level 4 plant is a proposed rubber Necker Coachella

[2:25:03] on level five there is an additional shed seating area

[2:25:06] on the remains of the Texas for private residential use

[2:25:10] on level six the proposal includes a make sure private

[2:25:13] parties and friends patches that would be available for tenants

[2:25:16] as well as a shed dog run area

[2:25:19] we've decades proposed a tower hi although the exact program

[2:25:22] programming details have not yet been determined

[2:25:27] the application was reviewed by the advisory design panel early

[2:25:30] this year on the panel recommended the development be declined

[2:25:33] and the following revisions for the night

[2:25:35] recognizing the podium for more consideration of materiality the towers

[2:25:39] in terms of which is a variation on consideration of

[2:25:42] providing access to some public open space ... connection between

[2:25:45] you and a street

[2:25:47] staff over the applicant has adequately addressed the advisory design

[2:25:50] panels concerns by adding a deep recess along H. street

[2:25:54] refining the materiality of the towers and podium on by

[2:25:57] adding is seating areas at the intersections along cook street

[2:26:00] a connection between view and yet she was not incorporated

[2:26:03] since the proposed increase this on the nine hundred block

[2:26:06] additional revisions were incorporated on a listed in the staff

[2:26:09] report

[2:26:12] on ... and on a couple of rendered images of

[2:26:14] the proposal this is speech from cook street

[2:26:19] and this one shows view street looking north

[2:26:25] to conclude all there but the proposal is not consistent

[2:26:28] with a maximum height described in the guidelines it is

[2:26:30] consistent with the built form principles in the core residential

[2:26:33] designation of the ACP which supports buildings up to approximately

[2:26:36] twenty stories

[2:26:38] ... is advances a number of objects objectives the development

[2:26:41] part commentary three including high quality architecture landscape and Devin

[2:26:46] Stein who greatest heights along a street on this basis

[2:26:49] staff recommend for council's consideration that the application be supported

[2:26:54] this concludes my presentation I'm happy to answer any questions

[2:26:57] so what we going to do is that I would

[2:27:01] entertain questions

[2:27:03] hi on our ticket list councillor Loveday

[2:27:10] thank you I

[2:27:12] sure like my colleagues I have ... many and so

[2:27:15] I'll just ... start with a few I'm

[2:27:22] first off

[2:27:26] what is the rationale from the city's perspective of having

[2:27:30] these two sites come forward as one proposal

[2:27:36] through the acting matters there's not really any policy that

[2:27:39] prevents the application coming forward together ... it's not uncommon

[2:27:43] for a rezoning applications ... for multiphase developments to included

[2:27:47] development for the fast pace the applicant is chosen to

[2:27:51] just come forward with the development for the phase one

[2:27:53] night align

[2:27:55] and maybe I'll just add to that a No Way

[2:27:58] does the applicant it off easier by doing it we

[2:28:01] look at the project comprehensively consider the heights across the

[2:28:05] whole site and as well as the densities

[2:28:09] the developer by doing it together it gives the developer

[2:28:14] the opportunity to think about how they're going to stage

[2:28:16] and how they're going to accommodate of businesses that they

[2:28:19] hope to move so that there's as little disruption to

[2:28:23] those businesses as possible

[2:28:28] so it

[2:28:32] with that hi so there couldn't applicant then essentially take

[2:28:39] ...

[2:28:40] it unlimited number of on related sites and proposed to

[2:28:44] miss one

[2:28:46] rezoning

[2:28:50] I think that would be very unusual flat circa ...

[2:28:53] typically when we have such a large site such as

[2:28:55] this we ask for additional information and in this case

[2:28:59] ... the rezoning booklets ... the design and that the

[2:29:03] design manual is really the main P. the main assurances

[2:29:06] that the city has got that the concept is presented

[2:29:09] today is achievable and will be delivered

[2:29:12] ... but this night the east just mentioned that would

[2:29:14] be very unusual for that to happen would there be

[2:29:16] any ...

[2:29:19] legally binding timelines for the development I know like for

[2:29:24] example with the

[2:29:26] plaza which I think is the

[2:29:28] the mean amenity

[2:29:32] being secured within phase three what if these three never

[2:29:37] happens

[2:29:39] through the mayor that this that could happen ... ...

[2:29:42] there's no guarantee that phase two or three will come

[2:29:45] forward ... however that you know phase two and that

[2:29:49] of see that the plaza is part of ... the

[2:29:53] main the main community amenities part as part of the

[2:29:55] later phases ... but ultimately be

[2:29:59] there are

[2:30:00] significant number of units ... in the later phases and

[2:30:03] so the applicant is of C. has the motivation to

[2:30:05] come forward and deliver those faces we haven't ... up

[2:30:09] to go into the details of the legal agreements in

[2:30:11] terms of timing and how that may be impacted

[2:30:15] okay and if you mentioned that the

[2:30:19] consultant from the land left analysis is on line do

[2:30:23] I just sort of ask questions and they will there

[2:30:27] they will answer the

[2:30:31] that's crazy is online yeah okay

[2:30:33]

[2:30:37] welcome thank you for being here

[2:30:43] with the

[2:30:46] the land lease analysis

[2:30:50] yes I I found it very surprising that there would

[2:30:52] be no increase in in land left in in fact

[2:30:56] that it would be seen as having a fairly major

[2:30:59] reduction in vessel and so

[2:31:03] the first question is

[2:31:06] but you were ... an analysis and opinion would it

[2:31:10] be that after this property was rezoned ... the applicant

[2:31:14] would sell this property for less money ... then if

[2:31:19] they were to sell it now

[2:31:24] councillor Loveday explorer pair from Korea Alaska mayor and council

[2:31:28] thanks for having me at the end committee meeting today

[2:31:31] and I'm happy to answer anyone's questions as we go

[2:31:33] along just just to be clear so ... councillor Loveday

[2:31:38] ... with your specific to your question ... the motion

[2:31:43] for you get one response to your first pointer just

[2:31:46] to your question but to answer your question ... yes

[2:31:50] it would be our opinion that if the site was

[2:31:53] rezoned so which required to be purpose built rental housing

[2:31:57] in its entirety for the life of the building in

[2:32:00] actually with team values the value of the land if

[2:32:04] it was put on the open market and attempted to

[2:32:07] be sold to another party

[2:32:09] ... and how does your analysis factor in the the

[2:32:14] heights and the fact that ...

[2:32:19] being the tallest buildings in the city I will likely

[2:32:22] have a protected view scapes ... from ... many of

[2:32:27] the floors of the ocean ... and ... very beautiful

[2:32:31] city ... ... in perpetuity so how does that factor

[2:32:37] into the valuation that every one of these ... floors

[2:32:40] above what is ... currently allowed under zoning ...

[2:32:45] will be very valuable

[2:32:49] thanks so in response to that what is part of

[2:32:53] our our financial analysis we need to complete an estimate

[2:32:58] of the potential rant that could be achieved by the

[2:33:01] the proposed units in the rezoning and so our our

[2:33:07] our monthly rental estimates assume that the units in the

[2:33:12] upper part of the building kind of calm very good

[2:33:15] views and so it's reflected in our revenue estimates for

[2:33:19] the completed buildings

[2:33:25] and are those rents within your report

[2:33:32] grants are so our our work was shared with city

[2:33:36] staff and with the applicant

[2:33:39] much of it is confidential because it contains information provided

[2:33:43] by the applicant is proprietary and confidential so it's not

[2:33:48] contained in the report ... that is in the public

[2:33:52] staff document

[2:33:57] okay that that sit of for ... ... for now

[2:34:02] Blair thank you ... thank you

[2:34:07] ... maybe I'll see the floor for now thank you

[2:34:10] thank you thanks councillor Dubow for a year yeah acting

[2:34:14] mayor shift ... councils or enjoy your next thank you

[2:34:18] ...

[2:34:20] it's hard not to make a comment this is a

[2:34:23] very complex the application and ... hello a lot of

[2:34:28] detail a lot of pieces ... so I think I'll

[2:34:33] start off with comes ugh finishing work we're councillor Loveday

[2:34:39] ... started and I guess I'm having trouble ... understanding

[2:34:47] the

[2:34:49] ... Sir what we call it that the design manual

[2:34:52] so

[2:34:54] it's the applicant the does the does through consultation a

[2:34:58] design

[2:35:00] manuals so what they're proposing for the design of these

[2:35:05] this these properties is that my understanding is through my

[2:35:08] that's correct ... ultimately the at the applicant hired a

[2:35:11] consultant to prepare the design manual ... ... but it

[2:35:14] has been prepared in close collaboration with city staff on

[2:35:18] the reason why ... the design money often put forward

[2:35:21] is because it is such a large project ... and

[2:35:24] is seeking ... greater heights than the policy supports ...

[2:35:28] so that's the rationale why they put forward the design

[2:35:30] manual in the intent that it provides greater security ...

[2:35:34] for the later phases where we don't have a developments

[2:35:37] on the table today

[2:35:39] he and the ... what is the difference between sort

[2:35:43] of a design manual and so the most recent one

[2:35:46] we dealt with it was a ... ... I guess

[2:35:49] some

[2:35:50] as I'm trying to think what the word is whether

[2:35:52] it's a master plan for capital city where when the

[2:35:56] jobs are built it was commented how they follow ...

[2:36:01] the message about what's the difference sort of between the

[2:36:04] two

[2:36:05] I am through the mayor of the

[2:36:08] if involved in the capsule pock ... project up I

[2:36:11] believe that one had more historic context um it had

[2:36:14] a a design money that had been the pad ...

[2:36:17] many many years ago and so that was kind of

[2:36:20] more of an update and refresh ... this one is

[2:36:23] ... ace is

[2:36:26] it's been built at eight it has been developed in

[2:36:29] collaboration with study city stuff by then develop services on

[2:36:32] the community planning ... it is kind of ... run

[2:36:37] parallel to the emerging review of the downtown core area

[2:36:40] plan ... sales please it's been reviewed out from staff

[2:36:44] by a number of different angles ... based in policy

[2:36:48] and from development services

[2:36:50] ... but ... ultimately it is going to ... if

[2:36:53] if approved then they'll see will set the tone for

[2:36:55] those future phases so any any development that comes forward

[2:36:59] for the the size of any future phases will be

[2:37:02] reviewed based on both this document the design manual and

[2:37:08] existing decapitated it doesn't replace the downtown core area plan

[2:37:12] I think is maybe an easy ways on to your

[2:37:13] question ... is is an extra layer of policy ...

[2:37:17] on top of what already exists okay thank you thank

[2:37:20] you for all the set explanation because I'm very kind

[2:37:23] of confused about this piece so to go along with

[2:37:26] that ... having just finished discussing a little bit the

[2:37:30] village in corridor ... planning and how it was moved

[2:37:34] to next week because ... we want to get input

[2:37:37] from from the neighborhood said that are most affected with

[2:37:41] this plan so this design ... manual I hear that

[2:37:46] it was done by the applicant Tim with that work

[2:37:49] with the city staff

[2:37:51] this is not something that would come to the city

[2:37:55] the council table to one say whether we agree with

[2:37:59] this design manual and to the uh neighborhood association to

[2:38:04] see if they also agree with the support the design

[2:38:08] manual

[2:38:09] and I know I think it went to sort of

[2:38:11] was considered to be called ADP but I'm just trying

[2:38:14] to understand first how the design manual fits in and

[2:38:18] who approves the design manual since that is a big

[2:38:21] piece of what's being proposed

[2:38:24] it oversee by the nation is that if it is

[2:38:27] part of the attachment is part of the consideration for

[2:38:29] council stay below twenty the preparation design guidelines is is

[2:38:33] quite and expertise ... it does require a significant expertise

[2:38:36] from the design profession ... that's not to say that

[2:38:39] the public don't have a right to comment on it

[2:38:41] of course the day ... but really the preparation of

[2:38:44] design guidelines is is quite specialised area ... in terms

[2:38:48] of setting up the right intent the right design guidelines

[2:38:52] ... stuff we also need to be able to interpret

[2:38:54] the policy in a in a certain way that it

[2:38:56] makes sense ... say it is a complex process and

[2:39:00] and that's why it's we we do tend to leave

[2:39:02] it to the expense ... in that regard ... but

[2:39:05] ultimately what the design guidelines results and is the concept

[2:39:09] that as shown in the ... in the renderings in

[2:39:12] the conceptual design of the rezoning booklet which is probably

[2:39:15] something that the public can more easily identify with

[2:39:21] perhaps oldest if I can add to it a bit

[2:39:24] this isn't unusual so the design manuals just another word

[2:39:27] for design guidelines and so the official community plan needs

[2:39:30] to be amended in order to incorporate that and so

[2:39:33] there's a whole process that set out regarding the official

[2:39:36] community plan amendment does ... require that consultation both the

[2:39:42] referral that originally happened to the cal Luke ... but

[2:39:45] then through the process in council's motion there's the ...

[2:39:50] motion that it council consider referring it out to people

[2:39:52] within two hundred meters and where it goes from there

[2:39:55] so that consultation will continue and in just in terms

[2:40:00] of the discussion in relation to capitol park and other

[2:40:03] projects and and should we be looking at this first

[2:40:06] or second there's there's no right or wrong way of

[2:40:08] council doing it and it could be piece depart but

[2:40:12] this is consistent with for instance how ... dockside was

[2:40:17] done rail yards capital park a lot of the large

[2:40:21] rezoning's I'm trying to think of anywhere it has come

[2:40:23] to council in stages they usually come together because the

[2:40:27] design guidelines or informing the rezoning and how that would

[2:40:30] work

[2:40:33] okay thank you for that some

[2:40:37] in the go to and next some questions

[2:40:44]

[2:40:46] so so we're so there's the design guidelines of the

[2:40:50] bird looking at a rezoning for both property for both

[2:40:54] sides and now we're looking for the development permit for

[2:40:57] the one site and I also want to go back

[2:41:01] to councillor Loveday's questions and make make sure I

[2:41:06] ... and so usually when we have had ... sites

[2:41:11] like dockside a real yards or

[2:41:14] ... I guess even that the Hudson or like ...

[2:41:18] capital park ... the developers actually is the whole site

[2:41:22] is one site this one is to is to almost

[2:41:25] two pieces divided by region region park region and and

[2:41:31] so on I I don't quite understand how it can

[2:41:33] come sort of as as one

[2:41:38] to me they're 2 separate

[2:41:40] like even

[2:41:43] David the to char development on cook and gates this

[2:41:50] is is more in line to me as a sort

[2:41:54] of one ... design manual as because it's all on

[2:41:59] one sort of adjoining attached sites where is this one

[2:42:03] is not attached

[2:42:05] so is this done before or is this

[2:42:09] something different

[2:42:13] I think the easiest way to answer questions there's nothing

[2:42:15] up in our bylaws that prevents applications being submitted concurrently

[2:42:19] as part of one rezoning application just because I'm not

[2:42:23] one contiguous lots ...

[2:42:27] we we did

[2:42:32] what ms witnessing is correct and there are I can

[2:42:34] think of examples like if you look at dockside technically

[2:42:37] it's not a contiguous site it's divided in part by

[2:42:40] tiny road in you you cross the street there's not

[2:42:42] another development site in between but it's divided melts in

[2:42:46] Angela's came forward and council ... was considering amounts in

[2:42:50] Angela and I'm not sure everything everything cross the finish

[2:42:53] line on the same day but there was a property

[2:42:56] ... I think it's on Balmoral by the castle centre

[2:42:59] it was related ... so if it does happen and

[2:43:05] ...

[2:43:07] again it's the developer has made this choice because it

[2:43:10] makes sense for them to look at these properties comprehensively

[2:43:15] so they can move things around it has advantages to

[2:43:18] staff and that we're able to look at comprehensive sort

[2:43:22] of sidewalk improvements and how the whole site will work

[2:43:25] together ... there's a better understanding about phasing about what

[2:43:31] will happen when and knowing that with the first phase

[2:43:34] that the twenty three units of affordable housing will come

[2:43:37] online in and so forth but did some really not

[2:43:41] a right or a wrong

[2:43:43] thank thank you affix for helping out with some of

[2:43:46] the some standing on I don't know if it was

[2:43:49] yesterday or this morning we received an email from Chris

[2:43:53] Gower who was a staff I don't know staff and

[2:43:55] see the letter

[2:43:57] okay ... so maybe we need to be a center

[2:44:01] ... but I really appreciated his letter and she mentions

[2:44:07] that one of his chief assignments as senior senior planner

[2:44:11] for urban design in Victoria when he worked out for

[2:44:14] the city was the preparation of the downtown core area

[2:44:18] plan and ... he said the letter to councils and

[2:44:22] he talks about ... what was considered when when ...

[2:44:28] doing this and others 3 D. modeling

[2:44:33] and so he he expresses concerns ... about the the

[2:44:39] heightened density ... and taking away the the the Victoria's

[2:44:44] unique place up but the main thrust of it is

[2:44:49] that of that this the work that was done ...

[2:44:53] for this area would never envisioned of this kind of

[2:44:57] ... heightened density in these areas ... so I don't

[2:45:01] know ... whether it is appropriate for me to ask

[2:45:05] of ... your thoughts on or

[2:45:09] you know with the with the current

[2:45:12] I am that exists

[2:45:16] I guess I have trouble understanding how this degree of

[2:45:21] density

[2:45:22] catfish the computers supported ... in consideration of of the

[2:45:27] letter that ... Mr Gower wrote when he worked on

[2:45:31] the plan

[2:45:33] ... through the mat will see con coming to less

[2:45:35] we haven't seen it ... but at in a through

[2:45:39] the staff report was in the presentation we try to

[2:45:42] explain is that yes is this news there's no getting

[2:45:46] around the highest the highest all significantly higher than what

[2:45:48] the policy proposes but the trade off is ... is

[2:45:52] a smaller podiums the current the current D. cap ...

[2:45:56] as shown in the massing studies at even the presentation

[2:45:59] does ... allow for much mold okay yeah ... squatter

[2:46:03] at both here and ...

[2:46:06] heavier podiums ... that that go up to twenty stories

[2:46:10] the OCP and the T. CAP ... develop to twenty

[2:46:13] stories ... but in a more Bochy way and the

[2:46:16] lower portion of the buildings what this proposal does is

[2:46:20] essentially I have a ticket because by virtue of the

[2:46:24] fact that it is a a large sites it has

[2:46:27] the space and flexibility to spread those towers out ...

[2:46:32] with more building separation distances ... through the work with

[2:46:36] staff ... the podiums have been leveraged ... which ...

[2:46:40] staff of the opinion is an improvement on the current

[2:46:43] guidelines ... in terms of providing a more human scale

[2:46:46] ... missing from the street level which is ultimately how

[2:46:50] we all experienced the city

[2:46:58] Sir could I just add to that a lead

[2:47:01] yes go ahead so thank you ... I just wanted

[2:47:04] to note to that these are rental buildings and rental

[2:47:08] does change the formula it doesn't change our policy but

[2:47:11] it changes what's needed to make projects viable ... you

[2:47:16] know years ago we were talking about rental and that's

[2:47:18] the reason that we're having a lot of the situations

[2:47:21] that we have right now where we don't have the

[2:47:22] housing that we need for people if these were built

[2:47:25] as condos it could be you know quite a bit

[2:47:27] a bit smaller so those are ... also some of

[2:47:30] the trade offs and in addition to the urban design

[2:47:33] is the types of pieces that we're looking at this

[2:47:35] so thank you for that and I'm gonna pick up

[2:47:38] after my just a little ... response I'll cede the

[2:47:41] floor and come back to the rest my question but

[2:47:45] I guess so my understanding is that the fact that

[2:47:47] these are rental is is what's driving the heightened density

[2:47:52] is would that be part of from my understanding that

[2:47:55] is is I issue said of these were all condos

[2:47:58] ...

[2:48:00] that would make the heightened density let's look at that

[2:48:05] I would expect with us or through the mayor ...

[2:48:07] I I would expect that the density would be less

[2:48:09] if it if it was a a condo building ...

[2:48:11] but we're really looking at in this proposal is ...

[2:48:14] the applicant has come forward with with a proposal that

[2:48:17] includes rental housing ... has indicated a need for a

[2:48:21] certain level of density and the pharmacy in front of

[2:48:24] you has ...

[2:48:28] has mitigated the impacts of that heightened density as much

[2:48:31] ... as possible ... as as ... as Wayne said

[2:48:35] you know you can you can have you can have

[2:48:36] shorter fatter buildings are you can have taller slimmer buildings

[2:48:39] with the same density ... if council disagrees with the

[2:48:43] density that's proposed ... yeah that's that's the purview of

[2:48:48] of council but I would expect that if the density

[2:48:52] was reduced that we would not be seen ... rental

[2:48:56] ... happening in this location okay thank you and I

[2:48:59] do have one put forth the just reminders on optical

[2:49:02] scroll through can you remind me of the amount of

[2:49:05] rentals are being provided what percentage is affordable

[2:49:12] Sir Elton this is ... for phase one and only

[2:49:15] after the five and ten units proposed twenty three of

[2:49:18] them are affordable as per the city's median income brackets

[2:49:22] search for this the space for the first phase answer

[2:49:26] what percent twenty three out of five hundred and ten

[2:49:29] twenty three out of five hundred and ten yeah okay

[2:49:32] thank you that's it thank you thank you other questions

[2:49:36] yeah councillor Dubow and then councillor young

[2:49:39] thanks mayor helps and for the whole new faces how

[2:49:43] long will it take to for construction

[2:49:47] that's something that the applicant is best placed on seven

[2:49:50] staff ... but I mean based on typical timing and

[2:49:55] construction phases it you know the the latest fate the

[2:49:57] later phases couldn't be realized that potentially in a set

[2:50:01] of five to seven years from now

[2:50:03] so is it fair to say minimum five years I

[2:50:06] think that's a fair assumption okay

[2:50:09] my second question

[2:50:12] you earlier indicated that they would be twenty three units

[2:50:17] affordable created by medium income

[2:50:20] and in the report to this also indicates they would

[2:50:23] be fifteen units lost is that correct

[2:50:27] that is correct yes so we have and one hundred

[2:50:33] and we've

[2:50:36] so that means the project would lose fifteen and units

[2:50:40] affordable I'm getting twenty three affordable medium income

[2:50:46] so I just wanted to point out this was more

[2:50:49] than a comment to the question so thank you

[2:50:53] that did nothing further all

[2:50:55] I'll come back to it okay thank you ... councillor

[2:50:58] young and councillor Isitt it just to follow up on

[2:51:03] on the previous question ... did councillor Loveday is an

[2:51:08] and others on the phasing

[2:51:12] mmhm I see the ... the density on the eastern

[2:51:18] half block is a slightly higher

[2:51:22] then the

[2:51:25] on the west block I think ... and I I

[2:51:28] think the basic density of allowable is actually lower

[2:51:33] ... so I guess the question is if indeed ...

[2:51:39] the second phase never takes place

[2:51:43] ... or or if you if you if them put

[2:51:47] another way the if you ignore the possibility of the

[2:51:49] second phase which includes ... the ... the the plaza

[2:51:56] who would be your recommendation on the first phase speak

[2:51:59] different given the ... increase in the allowable density and

[2:52:08] ... the whatever amenities are being provided in phase one

[2:52:15] thanks for the question ... that's the interesting one ...

[2:52:19] I mean the the main driver for the community many

[2:52:23] teas as part of the overall project is the community

[2:52:26] plaza ... as part of the nine hundred block if

[2:52:30] the first phase was viewed in isolation ... my professional

[2:52:35] opinion is that I think it would be supportable based

[2:52:38] on the fact that it is is low height it's

[2:52:41] ... it's for twenty one stories the OCP suppose twenty

[2:52:45] stories um the magnitude of the various being sorted less

[2:52:49] ...

[2:52:51] Axcelis

[2:52:53] I've done if that answers your question hello the up

[2:52:57] uptake in in FSR as creators

[2:53:01] eight six point two to one ... floor space ratio

[2:53:04] for that

[2:53:05] Postle and that is

[2:53:08] there was some ... there's a lot of add did

[2:53:12] discussion with this particular project ... and the applicant and

[2:53:15] it was is the reason why it doesn't it doesn't

[2:53:19] have the same densities nine hundred block is that the

[2:53:21] loading area on this possible asing closed ... subject to

[2:53:26] floor space ... and is that large loading area that's

[2:53:30] needed to serve the anticipated attendance ... for the commercial

[2:53:35] units the nine hundred block isn't anticipated to have the

[2:53:39] same issues because of the great changes between gays and

[2:53:42] you street the parking areas is anticipated to be more

[2:53:46] underground and that full notes ... county towards full space

[2:53:53] thank you I'm

[2:53:55] this is the there's some

[2:53:58] the design guidelines stress the setbacks between the buildings ...

[2:54:05] twenty three meters I think which is ...

[2:54:09] and and the those I think resulted from some earlier

[2:54:13] concerns ...

[2:54:16] stemming from the R. 48 zoning but

[2:54:21] would the

[2:54:24] analysis be any different if you use it took the

[2:54:28] following point of view we think that twenty three meters

[2:54:32] I think it was is appropriate ... for the setback

[2:54:38] between a new building and an existing building

[2:54:42] but

[2:54:43] with regard to set backs within a development site

[2:54:49] ... people can do whatever they want ... is there

[2:54:53] building to rental buildings on the site ...

[2:54:57] they can be when people walk into the unit and

[2:55:02] decide whether they want a rented the other building is

[2:55:05] there ... the developer can make whatever decision he wants

[2:55:11] with regard to those internal setbacks would the analysis and

[2:55:17] specifically ... the limit on the number of towers and

[2:55:22] consequently the height of the towers ... be different if

[2:55:26] you took the stance that ... the developer can make

[2:55:31] his own decision with regard to setbacks

[2:55:34] between the buildings and the new buildings or

[2:55:41] is there some consideration of relationship to existing neighborhood ...

[2:55:48] that ... dictates the design

[2:55:59] I think that was

[2:56:04] is it I think that I think in a way

[2:56:05] ... opposing result because I'm thinking ... of the question

[2:56:10] that was in the ...

[2:56:13] ultimately the the applicant has come forward to the proposal

[2:56:19] whereas the two tower and it just to clarify your

[2:56:23] question specific to the phase one or the overall come

[2:56:26] in actually it was probably more relevant to phase two

[2:56:31] where the higher heights are contemplated and where there's a

[2:56:36] specific

[2:56:38] a provision in the recommendation that says no more than

[2:56:41] three towers on the on the nine hundred block and

[2:56:45] ... well this is the background as you're probably aware

[2:56:50] is that

[2:56:51] ... when people first started bringing forward ... developments under

[2:56:55] the R. forty eight ... we discovered that if two

[2:57:00] adjacent buildings built by two developers used a very narrow

[2:57:04] setbacks you'd you'd have unlivable circumstances people would be balconies

[2:57:10] would be

[2:57:12] bumping into each other almost ... so we use set

[2:57:16] these big setbacks which between towers and what I'm wondering

[2:57:22] is whether these big setbacks that are proposed ... on

[2:57:26] the nine hundred block in particular

[2:57:29] ... for the benefit of the development itself floor they

[2:57:33] really for the benefit of the surrounding neighborhood and existing

[2:57:38] buildings

[2:57:40] thank you for that point of clarification asa ... ...

[2:57:43] we appreciate it I'm based relay is twofold ... the

[2:57:48] if if you look at the ... the design intent

[2:57:51] for the design manual is both to preserve the livability

[2:57:55] of ... existing and future residence ... this slide I

[2:58:00] showed in the presentation with the red boxes that demonstrates

[2:58:03] how the towers have been ... position not only to

[2:58:08] benefit the red line of the subject parcel but also

[2:58:12] the surrounding context in terms of the total buildings this

[2:58:15] determine how screen neighbourhood of intended to be going to

[2:58:18] the north and south ... to avoid United ... the

[2:58:22] fifty breaches ... maintain access to sunlight all those aspects

[2:58:26] ... a key design intents of the design manual that

[2:58:30] ... ... the objective is to benefit both the existing

[2:58:34] residents and future residents

[2:58:38] so it's not is it is this the simple answer

[2:58:41] to question is that it's to benefit both the existing

[2:58:43] residents this thing residents of the surrounding neighborhood plus future

[2:58:49] residents of this exactly thank

[2:58:53] thank you I've got councillor Isitt and then myself cancer

[2:58:56] as a go ahead but my apologies if my question

[2:58:59] to put kids with some other council members of the

[2:59:02] house but just trying to understand how the height variance

[2:59:05] is considered ... supportable by staff given the magnitude of

[2:59:09] the variance

[2:59:13] through the mayor of the staff are proposing as part

[2:59:16] of the recommendation is to is to limit the heights

[2:59:19] and the asset to ... include the proposed heights in

[2:59:24] the official community plan amendment but to no and better

[2:59:27] use the proposed ties such two stories into the new

[2:59:31] sign so any future develop this the concurrent developments as

[2:59:34] part of phase one and any future development should they

[2:59:36] come forward with the development phase two and three ...

[2:59:40] would be subject to a variance ... so it would

[2:59:43] be it would be reviewed ... if council chooses to

[2:59:47] opt for the staff recommendation it would be reviewed by

[2:59:50] council and to an opportunity for comments the rationale fed

[2:59:54] the increase and that highlights ... ... significantly above the

[2:59:59] policy is is the trade off I mentioned earlier ...

[3:00:04] in terms of increased building separation distances between the towers

[3:00:08] the lower podiums ... the central plaza the applicant has

[3:00:13] proposed a central plaza this night I double what the

[3:00:16] policy supports I or what to put policy recommends ...

[3:00:20] all these are factors that staff you know you play

[3:00:23] into the whole ... the whole package when we review

[3:00:29] an application ... and ultimately you know you'd be the

[3:00:34] impacts on on the public realm ... photo the buildings

[3:00:39] alas ... through a small through shows a podium from

[3:00:43] a street Kay street scape perspective many of us were

[3:00:46] in our experience our cities ... as a pedestrian we

[3:00:50] walk down the streets we look at how tall buildings

[3:00:52] are ... we see you know just you know which

[3:00:55] state that gives us a sense of how we feel

[3:00:57] in the space ... the impacts on the height of

[3:01:02] thirty two storeys arguably a greatest when fusion view from

[3:01:06] the city skyline said they the impacts from the toilet

[3:01:09] buildings in that respect to really that's why

[3:01:12] we look at the future did you analysis ... and

[3:01:15] how how the city can be seen ... from the

[3:01:17] more distant views ... say from staff stocks perspective ...

[3:01:23] in terms of prioritizing the public ... the public interest

[3:01:27] ... you know we've been ready faxing hard on on

[3:01:30] getting those paid Ms down to an acceptable and supportable

[3:01:34] level on the impact of that is that the applicant

[3:01:37] increase the height of the towers and that was one

[3:01:39] thing you know that happen through the stuff and he

[3:01:42] slapped that was what we really focused on office on

[3:01:44] and and and the private proposal as it's presented today

[3:01:48] thank you if the towers were kept to their same

[3:01:51] ... with ...

[3:01:54] it and the the distal density wasn't approved to be

[3:01:58] on the

[3:02:00] are the zoning or the OCP would ... can you

[3:02:03] tell us how approximately how many stories the building would

[3:02:06] be

[3:02:08] because the assumption that a rushed a little shorter building

[3:02:12] would be wider is only piece that's assuming that council

[3:02:15] is prepared to grant the density but let's see if

[3:02:18] the density of council wasn't prepared to go beyond the

[3:02:21] OCP in terms of density can you give a sense

[3:02:24] of approximately how many stories the towers would be if

[3:02:27] we if we wanted to retain slender towers

[3:02:32] and that's complicated calculation it is a complicated calculation approach

[3:02:36] and have all the top of my head but I

[3:02:37] I would pretty outset can answer for you later in

[3:02:40] the meeting I guess that's the point five density if

[3:02:44] that was in the bill how many stories essentially

[3:02:48] ... based on the floor plate of each tower of

[3:02:52] the floor area of each story in the tower

[3:02:55] ... how many stories with that point five of density

[3:02:58] translate into I guess to be my question we get

[3:03:00] that in a bit I will look at it for

[3:03:02] you yeah thank you ... I guess the other question

[3:03:06] is ...

[3:03:08] that seems like the policy that council generally landed on

[3:03:11] the OCP adopted was approximately twenty stories in some parts

[3:03:15] of the downtown council was prepared to go a bit

[3:03:18] higher ... I was in the minority in believing that

[3:03:21] that sort of benchmark was too high but a majority

[3:03:24] supported that ... but just wondering is there a risk

[3:03:28] of essentially a slippery slope for

[3:03:32] essentially when we start to talk about heights that are

[3:03:35] fifty percent more than the OCP maximum in terms of

[3:03:38] the number of stories does that policy then become meaningless

[3:03:42] and is it really become either a guessing game or

[3:03:46] just a

[3:03:47] at issue of just political power and political struggle for

[3:03:51] every applicant to maximize their return in is essentially every

[3:03:56] should be almost treat every parcel is the fits the

[3:03:59] tabula rasa with no regulations or no policy to guide

[3:04:03] it really becomes just a guessing game of what if

[3:04:06] council may or may not be prepared to accept on

[3:04:09] any given parcel it does seem that we've sort of

[3:04:12] our opening

[3:04:13] that the discussion to that bike

[3:04:17] the essential variance from 20 to 32 stories

[3:04:21] through the mayor

[3:04:23] this doesn't set a precedent council a

[3:04:27] staff and council review every application on their own and

[3:04:32] with this application of certainly it was literally and figuratively

[3:04:36] looked at from every possible angle the staff took this

[3:04:40] increase in height very seriously and that was why there

[3:04:44] was just partially white took so long but the number

[3:04:46] of studies were required the developer to do to look

[3:04:49] at the buildings from different vantage points from across the

[3:04:52] harbor from various points from the ground from up how

[3:04:55] would be viewed to understand the the incremental difference between

[3:05:00] podiums of this high that height wide building still in

[3:05:03] buildings and so from an urban design perspective we finally

[3:05:07] landed on yeah this is a big departure from the

[3:05:09] policy but the advantages in terms of less impact on

[3:05:13] the public realm is experienced when you're on the ground

[3:05:17] was this was seen to be advantageous particular lead in

[3:05:20] relation to it is rental housing and what is needed

[3:05:23] to make a rental housing project work added in with

[3:05:26] the advantages of gaining this large public plaza which is

[3:05:30] needed in this neighborhood as well as some of the

[3:05:33] other things that are on offer

[3:05:36] thank you

[3:05:37] thank you ... I am going to move the recommendation

[3:05:40] if there's a seconder I do have some questions and

[3:05:42] then some comments

[3:05:44] is there anyone who will second the recommendation

[3:05:48] thank you seconded by councillor alto ... this actually also

[3:05:53] with my questions and then ... comments so ... the

[3:05:56] the public space I think is a good proposal it's

[3:05:59] very welcome ... it's nice to read and this is

[3:06:02] my understanding that it's not all ... concrete like to

[3:06:05] it there's a size comparison was to bastion square but

[3:06:08] bastion square is very concrete but ... how do we

[3:06:11] ensure that the public space really read size and feels

[3:06:14] like public space like a space to stop and gather

[3:06:17] a space for the public is welcome you know that

[3:06:19] they're particularly the grassy area for for kids our picnics

[3:06:23] that it that it feels public not just that the

[3:06:26] public can pass through or you know tentatively set on

[3:06:30] the edge of it how do we how do we

[3:06:31] make sure that that's

[3:06:33] because because this is the largest new public space if

[3:06:36] this goes ahead that we will see in the downtown

[3:06:39] in decades and so how do we make it really

[3:06:42] public I guess that's my key question

[3:06:45] thanks for the question ... yes ultimately the the legal

[3:06:49] mechanism through that is ... will be requesting statue right

[3:06:51] away ... so all they the proposal the price plaza

[3:06:55] will be privately owned and privately maintained ... will be

[3:07:00] securing public access A. Fritsche said the exact details of

[3:07:03] how that agreement is written a yet to be determined

[3:07:06] ... that owes me to lead as the legal mechanism

[3:07:09] ... for insuring that that people have the right to

[3:07:13] walk to okay right to use it as a you

[3:07:15] know ... as we would expect to public space to

[3:07:18] be and then there's also the second part of that

[3:07:20] is the design of the space ... making sure that

[3:07:23] and three subsequent DP's when the later phases ... if

[3:07:27] let's face come forward ... that those are designed in

[3:07:30] such a way that ... they they welcome people that

[3:07:34] there's no you know there's a clear distinction between public

[3:07:36] and private space and how those ... areas a landscaped

[3:07:41] ... what was seating areas like all those aspects will

[3:07:44] be am fully reviewed and and ... detailed and the

[3:07:48] subsequent development phases

[3:07:51] thank you very much ... I'll make some comments I

[3:07:53] think this is probably the most difficult land use decision

[3:07:56] that has faced me personally ... ... in the almost

[3:08:00] decade that I've sat at this table ... because it's

[3:08:04] you know and we're asked to do this often but

[3:08:06] not quite to this extent were asked to consider a

[3:08:09] whole bunch of different approaches and different ... considerations when

[3:08:13] we're looking at a land use proposal and as I

[3:08:17] was reviewing this I scribbled in my notes something that

[3:08:19] counselor Loveday said probably a couple of years ago ...

[3:08:22] which is the OCP is not just a density document

[3:08:25] and I think that's really what's being put in front

[3:08:28] of us today ... is if we want all of

[3:08:33] the things that we need for the future of our

[3:08:35] city and and for me the biggest concern is is

[3:08:38] housing in particular rental housing ... that we need to

[3:08:42] push the limits of density and height ... or we're

[3:08:45] not going to have the kind of city that that

[3:08:48] we need which is ... inclusive and which is sustainable

[3:08:52] ... now I don't pretend that these are gonna be

[3:08:54] affordable units no one does that's not the point ...

[3:08:56] but what we saw in the housing futures report that

[3:09:00] staff give us a couple of weeks ago is that

[3:09:01] right now we're between forty five and sixty three hundred

[3:09:05] units short just for the people who currently live here

[3:09:08] ... and there is a really interesting article in the

[3:09:10] times colonist I guess a couple days ago that show

[3:09:12] that even people who have like they can pay three

[3:09:14] thousand dollars for rent can't find anywhere and so that

[3:09:18] is weighing heavily on me and I and I I

[3:09:21] think it it should weigh heavily on all of us

[3:09:24] ... and then the second piece again going back to

[3:09:26] that housing future supply reports that that staff produced and

[3:09:30] I do think that report was excellent that even and

[3:09:32] this is important to this consideration even within the existing

[3:09:35] O. C. P. if we build it out with that

[3:09:38] the guidelines that are available ... to to twenty forty

[3:09:41] one we're still twenty to thirty percent short of the

[3:09:44] housing that we need for it not this is now

[3:09:46] for future so we're from between forty five and sixty

[3:09:50] three how

[3:09:50] read units short now ... ends were twenty to thirty

[3:09:54] percent under what we need for the future and I

[3:09:56] just can't in good conscience turn back ... housing ...

[3:10:01] particularly rental housing and I know that there this is

[3:10:04] not gonna be unanimous but I hope it gets at

[3:10:06] least five votes to move forward and I hope that

[3:10:07] people who have conditions that they placed them on the

[3:10:10] going forward there's already almost a whole alphabet of of

[3:10:13] ... and conditions that we need to get through to

[3:10:15] get to public hearing anyway ... but but I I

[3:10:19] do hope that we can kind of look at not

[3:10:22] just do we like height or do we like density

[3:10:25] ... but what is it that our city needs to

[3:10:27] be inclusive and sustainable for the future ... a couple

[3:10:31] more things before cede the floor the the the conference

[3:10:36] board of Canada put out a report of a few

[3:10:38] years ago now ... about what it would take to

[3:10:40] meet Canada's climate goals and I think it was a

[3:10:42] twenty eighteen report how do we get to kind of

[3:10:44] net zero by twenty fifty and what the report showed

[3:10:48] in this is what's facing us today is that Canadians

[3:10:51] generally aren't ready for or custom to the level of

[3:10:56] density that's going to be needed in urban centres to

[3:10:58] meet our climate goals and if we concentrate you know

[3:11:02] fifteen hundred units a let's call it four thousand to

[3:11:04] five thousand people ... in this area it means that

[3:11:08] they can take their kids to the child care that's

[3:11:10] in the building that they can walk to the grocery

[3:11:12] store that they can that they essentially they can live

[3:11:15] car light or car free and and forty percent of

[3:11:18] our missions right now is in transportation so it's it

[3:11:21] for me it's really climate and inclusivity and affordability and

[3:11:26] just having the housing we need to ... and I

[3:11:28] know these are affordable units but just like a person

[3:11:31] who can't has makes three thousand Bucks can't even afford

[3:11:33] to find anywhere right now because we are no places

[3:11:35] so ... I hope that that when we're looking at

[3:11:38] this today we won't just look at do we like

[3:11:40] tall towers are not that will that will think about

[3:11:43] everything that this a proposal offers for the future of

[3:11:46] our city that's beyond just that the height in the

[3:11:48] density so leave it at that I

[3:11:50] really do look forward to the discussion accounts are also

[3:11:53] is next as the seconder and then I'll come to

[3:11:54] councillor Thornton Joe and councillor Potts

[3:11:57] thanks very helps and ... I hadn't had a chance

[3:12:00] to and ask questions previously so it certainly wanted to

[3:12:03] make sure that there is an opportunity for further discussion

[3:12:06] so I will start just by asking a few questions

[3:12:08] them somewhere just clarification somewhere different ... what guarantee do

[3:12:14] we have that there will be an equivalent or greater

[3:12:16] number of affordable units in the next phase I understand

[3:12:20] that we have the understanding that this twenty three out

[3:12:22] of five hundred and tenants first face do we have

[3:12:25] any such agreement

[3:12:29] the twenty three units of affordable housing is the applicant's

[3:12:33] proposal for both faces photos yeah for both phases yes

[3:12:38] so I'm sorry I'm a bit confused earlier I thought

[3:12:40] I heard a question that spoke to twenty three out

[3:12:43] of five hundred and ten

[3:12:46] that is correct it is it it they are proposed

[3:12:48] to be delivered in the first phase ... but they

[3:12:51] don't intend to include any affordable housing is part of

[3:12:54] the later phases okay I'm glad I asked that question

[3:12:57] was what I understood thanks very much for that ...

[3:13:01] and ... just harkening back to the discussion about the

[3:13:03] plaza ... which seems to be a sort of one

[3:13:07] of the yep better amenities being proposed am I correct

[3:13:11] in believing I heard you say this statutory right of

[3:13:12] ways for the entire process so it's not just a

[3:13:15] through piece of a plus it's for every part of

[3:13:17] the plazas ... statutorily required to be open to the

[3:13:20] public exactly the we through the legal agreements when we

[3:13:25] if we get that ... phase will determine the actual

[3:13:28] delineation of the ... where that such too much of

[3:13:31] where plies it may exclude some commercial seating areas on

[3:13:36] the fringes ... to avoid you know that conflict between

[3:13:39] public and private but the exam ... the intent is

[3:13:43] that the most the Max amount of the plaza will

[3:13:45] be dedicated to start your trip ways and not just

[3:13:49] to me to strip running down the middle the whole

[3:13:51] plaza just a walkway yeah exactly okay okay thanks for

[3:13:54] that I'm the one of the things it's in the

[3:13:56] many conditions ... is a new wind study and what

[3:13:59] do you want that to show what do you expect

[3:14:02] that to show

[3:14:03] so the reason we've asked for a ... an updated

[3:14:06] Wednesday ... the and I don't I just this question

[3:14:10] because I can talk about everything the presentation site ...

[3:14:13] that there was a win city that was prepared ...

[3:14:16] but it was ... it was modeled on and adding

[3:14:19] a design concept when the stories were a at the

[3:14:22] height sweat was slightly lower ... the podiums are slightly

[3:14:25] tola ... so we just want to ... sure it

[3:14:29] says that through the extra height that has been ...

[3:14:33] ... proposed ... to the stuff review process that doesn't

[3:14:38] have any further ... negatives ... impacts on the public

[3:14:42] room ... sorry the applicant has advised us that you

[3:14:46] know that I did if you ... so in that

[3:14:49] in the information to put in a win study that

[3:14:51] it was actually a three D. model of the actual

[3:14:53] proposal ... they have spoken to the wind consultants and

[3:14:58] ... they've indicated that the up these updates are relatively

[3:15:00] straightforward and they don't need to remodel the whole thing

[3:15:03] is ... is that the benefits of technology ... ...

[3:15:07] they will be at each city updated ... and provided

[3:15:10] to us in the future report for council's consideration great

[3:15:14] thanks for that in your experience having obviously looked at

[3:15:17] similar proposals do you expect a significant difference in the

[3:15:20] outcome

[3:15:22] for the the difference between when the depression when city

[3:15:25] was created a model that is based on we don't

[3:15:28] anticipate any changes it's more just to ... just being

[3:15:33] absolutely certain that it doesn't have any impacts thanks for

[3:15:36] that ... I was a little unclear about the whole

[3:15:41] eighty P. reports and minutes it's a truck so if

[3:15:44] I am just to clarify for my own understanding so

[3:15:48] essentially eighty peas spent its consideration on the pros and

[3:15:53] cons of the design manual

[3:15:57] and less so on the actual applications would that be

[3:16:01] fair

[3:16:02] it was actually the ask through the mayor is actually

[3:16:04] opposite they reviewed the development for the first phase of

[3:16:07] the detailed design but they did not refuse the design

[3:16:10] manual okay and so this will not go back to

[3:16:14] eighty P. for any reason it's done that's what the

[3:16:16] case

[3:16:17] staff are not recommending that it goes back to try

[3:16:19] to design panel but see that decision if council which

[3:16:23] is that's great

[3:16:24] what happens is

[3:16:29] I try to ask this question but

[3:16:31] since the plaza is in the last phase and I

[3:16:34] think you indicated it could be some years before that's

[3:16:36] actually concluded ... I realize it is a legal agreement

[3:16:41] that would be in place if this goes forward but

[3:16:45] what happens if five years from now circumstances indicate that

[3:16:48] the plaza has to be materially different what what recourse

[3:16:52] with the city has

[3:16:56] I think you know with the ... it's been a

[3:16:58] big discussion amongst the planning stuff is you know how

[3:17:00] we secure a high quality plaza ... at this stage

[3:17:05] when we don't really know what the details about Tom

[3:17:08] and I think you know there will be some careful

[3:17:10] word smithing of of the the terms of that lease

[3:17:14] agreement to make sure that eight eight does meet a

[3:17:18] certain standard ... but it also allows flexibility for you

[3:17:23] know you for example technology changes new materials come out

[3:17:27] something you know you may ... be developed that we're

[3:17:30] not aware of ... and this one's being corporation the

[3:17:33] plaza we need to be able to catch the drafting

[3:17:36] these agreements we need to make sure there's enough flexibility

[3:17:39] that to account for those changes over time and that

[3:17:42] may happen ... but ultimately at the end of the

[3:17:45] day if something comes forward and like to face is

[3:17:48] that doesn't meet the terms of the lease agreement it

[3:17:50] would need to come back to council for reconsideration right

[3:17:53] so if for some reason years from now the design

[3:17:56] had to change for whatever reason and that had an

[3:17:59] impact on the design of the plaza staff would be

[3:18:03] in a position to review that are to oversee that

[3:18:06] I guess and it was materially different it would come

[3:18:09] back to that council to say looks different now what

[3:18:12] do you think how would that affect the whole it

[3:18:15] lets if this is approved today or over this goes

[3:18:18] on until I guess sounds like you'll be next year

[3:18:20] or the year after before family gets to public hearing

[3:18:22] but

[3:18:23] at some point how how does it

[3:18:27] windows staff get a chance to look at that no

[3:18:30] through four years down the road

[3:18:33] it would be through a developer have it when the

[3:18:34] development comes in ... for the later phases that's when

[3:18:37] the the design of the plaza and the surrounding built

[3:18:41] form will be locked down right okay great and the

[3:18:44] plaza would have to be consistent with the design guidelines

[3:18:47] what type which talk about the high quality durable materials

[3:18:50] and if you council's opinion it wasn't then council would

[3:18:54] also have the ability to send it back right okay

[3:18:58] great thanks for that that's very reassuring

[3:19:01]

[3:19:03] I think the question is is gonna ask about how

[3:19:05] many extra stories but I think that's the same as

[3:19:08] councillor Isitt's question which you're going to look into I

[3:19:11] think ... and based on some of the questions of

[3:19:14] the comments I've heard from my colleagues

[3:19:16] what would be the effect you think of asking the

[3:19:19] applicant to separate the two properties

[3:19:22] to have essentially to individual applications this earlier questions about

[3:19:27] why it's coming together as one from glamour at

[3:19:32] I have in theory they could separate it and we

[3:19:35] could be dealing with two applications in front of you

[3:19:38] today

[3:19:40] and in all likelihood we would have chosen to give

[3:19:43] you one presentation so that you could understand how the

[3:19:46] proposal works together ...

[3:19:50] so from a process or from your perspective the staff

[3:19:53] review perspective wouldn't really have made any difference no correct

[3:19:56] okay thanks for that and ... my last

[3:20:00] students very very help for taking so long but I

[3:20:02] I said turning down a dish but you don't have

[3:20:04] to apologize the motion is now on the floors of

[3:20:06] questions and comments are still in order and if there

[3:20:08] will be lots of time for everyone to say everything

[3:20:10] that needs to be set and asks for much so

[3:20:12] just ...

[3:20:14] I guess I just have to ask questions and was

[3:20:17] there ever any conversation with the applicant about including more

[3:20:21] affordable units and the twenty three

[3:20:25] there was silence conversations about ... the minutes he's being

[3:20:28] proposed and ultimately the applicant has chosen to put ...

[3:20:34] twenty better phrase all the eggs in that basket of

[3:20:36] being the plaza and putting ... thought is that that

[3:20:40] ...

[3:20:42] best selling feature for the application of the biggest ...

[3:20:46] community meeting as part of the proposal do you have

[3:20:48] any sense of whether there be an opportunity to consider

[3:20:51] a greater number of affordable units

[3:20:53] I guess the question

[3:20:57] it's also council which is okay and then the my

[3:21:01] last question I think you've answered but just to clarify

[3:21:03] ... if you mentioned just at the end of your

[3:21:05] other questions the ... the so called design manual that's

[3:21:09] being as part of this application it only really has

[3:21:12] any present value for this application right it doesn't it

[3:21:15] doesn't have a precedent for any surrounding your future applications

[3:21:19] no every application that comes forward to council is considered

[3:21:22] under the existing policy so unless council changes the policy

[3:21:26] and even if the policy did change heights are not

[3:21:30] appropriate everywhere so even if council said okay gosh you

[3:21:32] can go up to twenty five stories all around here

[3:21:35] some sites just don't suit it it's not right for

[3:21:38] the context thanks for that thanks for answering those questions

[3:21:42] ... I really appreciated actually the mayor's earlier comments because

[3:21:45] I think it's really easy to look at this application

[3:21:49] in its totality this this portion of it for me

[3:21:52] has very few questions around height or density because I

[3:21:56] actually think that it's it's quite suitable for the area

[3:21:59] when you look at the totality of the application which

[3:22:02] includes the next phase because phase two and then I

[3:22:05] think there is certain certainly there's discomfort I think around

[3:22:08] both the height and the density

[3:22:11] because it's huge

[3:22:13] getting around it it's huge and I think that that

[3:22:16] is a really anomalous and unusual for Victoria and I

[3:22:21] I am very cognizant of the discussions that are under

[3:22:23] way but we don't want to look like the old

[3:22:25] town ... and certainly there's aspects of the urban nature

[3:22:29] of Vancouver and other cities which are not ones that

[3:22:32] I think we want to reflect in the to raise

[3:22:34] a city of a I know that we're only under

[3:22:37] a hundred thousand but I think it is a city

[3:22:39] of several hundred thousand of the area

[3:22:42] ... but I've I really do appreciate mayor helps comments

[3:22:45] because I think that there is no doubt that there

[3:22:48] is discomfort and unease in looking at this type of

[3:22:51] density and these types of towers and at the same

[3:22:54] time ... if we try to broaden the analysis of

[3:22:59] this beyond height certainly ... and beyond the density to

[3:23:03] a certain extent a little that I have less reservations

[3:23:05] about that the concentration of residents in this area makes

[3:23:10] sense and it's it's ...

[3:23:14] it's a harder vision to embrace it really is because

[3:23:17] I think ... I think I've commented a number of

[3:23:20] times in the city of Victoria is now a city

[3:23:23] and ... it's not any longer really large town it

[3:23:26] is a relatively small city comparatively speaking but it's a

[3:23:28] city and it for all of the other laudable reasons

[3:23:32] to which we've made commitments around a concentration of residence

[3:23:37] for the purposes of ensuring the future viability of the

[3:23:40] environment and ... ... the contributions that we can make

[3:23:43] to a mitigating climate change is as little as that

[3:23:47] might be in the short term

[3:23:49] and the ability to provide housing for a range of

[3:23:52] individuals ... I think this is the type of thing

[3:23:56] we're going to have to seriously consider in a certain

[3:23:59] portion of our downtown ... and I think this is

[3:24:03] part of the portion I do have some reservations about

[3:24:06] this I would like to see more affordable units in

[3:24:09] this you know I was a little bit ... com

[3:24:12] to by doing the calculations of thinking of twenty three

[3:24:15] of the five hundred and ten because that's four and

[3:24:16] a half percent ... but I'm let's call him when

[3:24:19] I think of twenty three out of I think it's

[3:24:21] almost fifteen hundred units in total in the end ...

[3:24:24] so that's

[3:24:26] that's not great and and I would highly suggest the

[3:24:29] applicant wanted to have a slightly easier road for this

[3:24:32] past however goes that would be beneficial to have a

[3:24:36] higher number of affordable units offered us so that's that's

[3:24:39] still a big reservation for me ... but I think

[3:24:43] ...

[3:24:45] my reservations about the plaza have been a bit a

[3:24:48] bit of Swedish by the answers of staff around the

[3:24:50] legalities of ensuring that that will in fact happen I

[3:24:53] wish there was a little bit more that could happen

[3:24:56] in the first phase because it's always a bit uneasy

[3:24:59] making to ... to think of the phase developments like

[3:25:01] this look across the water and we look at you

[3:25:04] know the railyards and and ... and how many years

[3:25:07] it took to do ... both that and land ...

[3:25:10] ... dockside green and that the kind of the fits

[3:25:13] and starts that had and we didn't quite get everything

[3:25:16] we wanted when we thought we would and so on

[3:25:19] again if president that isn't great also would be it

[3:25:22] would be helpful to be able to think that there's

[3:25:24] some more public amenities that could be in phase one

[3:25:27] ... so that that could be something that is seen

[3:25:29] ... earlier ... but I I guess I have to

[3:25:33] go back to the fact that the reservations that I

[3:25:34] have I have to be balanced against the product this

[3:25:38] is producing ... and like I guess my last question

[3:25:42] I asked this ... and other times is that ...

[3:25:45] was reminder that when we look at applications like this

[3:25:48] we're looking at the proposal and not at the applicant

[3:25:51] correct

[3:25:52] and still consider the applicant we consider the proposal and

[3:25:56] so you know there there may or may not be

[3:25:58] ... other questions that arise and that and that ...

[3:26:00] venue but it's not something that is the

[3:26:03] relevant to this consideration so ... at its is not

[3:26:07] easy and I agree with mayor helps comments that this

[3:26:10] may be one of the most profound decisions that this

[3:26:12] council makes around land use and residents but

[3:26:17] no rentals density climate change environments ... concentration of people

[3:26:21] I think on balance ... it should go forward for

[3:26:25] a conversation I think there are I think her help

[3:26:29] she referred to the alphabet of conditions and I think

[3:26:31] that once all those conditions are made it will take

[3:26:34] so long to do that that ... will certainly have

[3:26:36] an opportunity for there to be additional commentary made

[3:26:40] ... by the public and perhaps even some additional conditions

[3:26:44] added by some council members today or or in the

[3:26:46] future so

[3:26:49] I'm not gonna be a wildly enthusiastic support of this

[3:26:51] moving forward but on the materials presented I think on

[3:26:54] balance ... the balances even and I believe I will

[3:26:56] be supporting this moving forward today

[3:26:59] okay thank you ... I am sorry if I missed

[3:27:01] people's hands in there and I don't I might not

[3:27:03] have everyone in the right order but I've got councillor

[3:27:05] Thornton Joe Potts Loveday eyes an indigo ... and then

[3:27:08] young ... councillor Joe it you are first a what

[3:27:12] do you start your comments and then we'll take a

[3:27:13] little bit lunch break and you'll have the floor when

[3:27:15] we come back thank you ... if before I make

[3:27:19] my statements ... just just a question ... mmhm and

[3:27:23] I just I think I've seen it in

[3:27:25] some of the other documents that we receive when we

[3:27:28] talk about our population and what the capital region's ...

[3:27:34] our goal for population and how much of that is

[3:27:37] expected in the city of Victoria ...

[3:27:43] and then when we look at the neighborhoods ... what

[3:27:46] kind of population growth we're looking we're expecting in neighborhoods

[3:27:51] so I'm not sure if the staff can answer this

[3:27:54] question but are we on par on route to meeting

[3:28:01] our the city's population growth and

[3:28:06] and is the screen downtown here screen neighbourhood my understanding

[3:28:13] is I would think I was told that it's actually

[3:28:16] one of the neighbors of the is exceeded the expectations

[3:28:19] of of growth do we do know that or do

[3:28:23] we have staff that to be able to get that

[3:28:25] information

[3:28:27] Mrs

[3:28:31] through the mayor I don't have all the details at

[3:28:33] my fingertips ... that ... as noted in our housing

[3:28:37] futures report ... we are R. O. C. P. ...

[3:28:41] is not on track for meeting the population growth that

[3:28:44] ... we are anticipated to need ... the

[3:28:49] if I recall correctly ... we were looking at a

[3:28:53] lot of growth happening in our neighborhood centers and that

[3:28:56] hasn't helped happened ... the downtown I believe this is

[3:29:00] generally on par and ... not much of the growth

[3:29:03] was gonna happen in our our neighborhoods ... if you'd

[3:29:06] like some numbers so I can ... take a look

[3:29:09] at the housing futures report in and get you some

[3:29:12] additional information about yes thank you if in fact some

[3:29:16] point ... that can be chief that big that be

[3:29:18] great I'm I'm just serve for my three minutes and

[3:29:22] left ... I think this is not ready to ...

[3:29:27] moved to public hearing I think the

[3:29:30] I'm part of that is is the difficulty in separating

[3:29:33] the overall rezoning of all the parcels and the development

[3:29:38] permit of of this property which I'm a little bit

[3:29:42] more in favor of ... but I I you know

[3:29:46] I went to the downtown business association the Cao Luke

[3:29:51] and ... the concerns of neighbourhood ... represent the residents

[3:29:57] in the neighborhood about the the increase ... height ...

[3:30:03] did you know I I think the plazas great ...

[3:30:06] but ... you know that I've heard many times from

[3:30:10] the downtown residents that what they're really looking for a

[3:30:13] four is green space and a and a park ...

[3:30:15] where you know ... dogs can play our children can

[3:30:21] climb ... ... place fractures ... so I'm I'm not

[3:30:25] quite confident that ... we we have a right when

[3:30:29] it comes to the the ...

[3:30:33] I forget the term again that was used for the

[3:30:35] the design ... manual ... when I was at the

[3:30:40] ADP meeting no there were comments about the scale of

[3:30:45] significance and

[3:30:48] you know that ... we are starting to look more

[3:30:50] like Toronto and and Vancouver and and less of what

[3:30:55] makes a Victoria ... it's charm

[3:30:59] I I think that there's some more work to be

[3:31:02] done to reduce some of that the height ... I

[3:31:07] do feel that ... there isn't enough affordable housing for

[3:31:11] what is being asked and I know ... I think

[3:31:15] in the presentation we have this morning on on the

[3:31:19] the neighborhoods there was talk about ... they talked they

[3:31:22] would like to see a variety of housing options and

[3:31:25] I think that this application or the ... the rezoning

[3:31:29] could could have more options I know this company does

[3:31:33] more of does rental but I I would envision for

[3:31:36] these pieces you know whether it is any one of

[3:31:40] them being a condominium whether it could be a affordable

[3:31:44] condominium minute like as some of the work that chart

[3:31:47] development has done ... and as we know many of

[3:31:51] the condos in downtown and there's street ... because of

[3:31:55] the the the conditions that we place on it owners

[3:31:58] can rent their their ... their units and so although

[3:32:04] we don't have a lot of rental units that are

[3:32:06] rental of I I I would say that we have

[3:32:09] a lot of people renting in many of the condos

[3:32:12] that are being built so I would like would like

[3:32:15] to see more affordable I would like to see more

[3:32:17] diversity of of housing perhaps one of the units of

[3:32:21] buildings being ... affordable condominium ... and because of that

[3:32:26] perhaps it would change the scale of of ... the

[3:32:31] land left that me have produced some of the highlights

[3:32:34] I've got more to say but I know this is

[3:32:36] twelve thirty one thank you I appreciate you respecting that

[3:32:38] so well when we get back we'll start with councillor

[3:32:41] Thornton Joe ... and then ms Wayne has an answer

[3:32:43] to councillor Isitt's question so we'll go to that next

[3:32:46] and then we'll go through the speakers list point of

[3:32:47] order yes is the Coriolis consultant going to be available

[3:32:54] will the corals consultant be available after lunch

[3:32:58] that is the intent yes but we can double check

[3:33:00] okay perfect thank you

[3:33:03] okay we'll see is all at 115

[3:33:09] back at home we are on

[3:33:12] councillor Dubow still has my agenda before on the

[3:33:16] nine two three nine oh one nine eleven one forty

[3:33:18] five units all those addresses on the screen yeah councillor

[3:33:21] Thornton Joe has the floor ... and then we're going

[3:33:24] to go to ms lane when she returns ... has

[3:33:27] the information accounts are as a request earlier and then

[3:33:30] we've got the rest of council still to speak so

[3:33:32] councillor Thornton had

[3:33:35] I sent the ball confirm my concerns being

[3:33:43] I do think the the over thirty ... stories is

[3:33:48] more than I feel ... even if it's up on

[3:33:52] the land left in the

[3:33:55] ... what is being offered to meet some of the

[3:33:58] goals of but I I think the word amenities now

[3:34:03] more more

[3:34:05] and some of the things that we accept as

[3:34:10] sort of ... helping or or ... contribute to support

[3:34:15] of the applications it is starting to drift a little

[3:34:20] bit from what I think are amenities for the neighborhood

[3:34:24] so when we start to look at daycare sure many

[3:34:27] residents may be able to use a daycare but it

[3:34:29] could be others from throughout the region or in all

[3:34:33] of that live in some other municipality but work downtown

[3:34:37] ... when you look at ... some of sometimes the

[3:34:40] green there is a pre patios are great amenities for

[3:34:44] the people that live there but maybe not so much

[3:34:47] ... for for for ... ... downtown as a whole

[3:34:51] when I look at the large report on some of

[3:34:53] the the street furniture or the right aways or you

[3:34:58] know other other things centre they're paying for that the

[3:35:02] city would normally have to do once again very positive

[3:35:06] but ... whether they're there the amenities ... that should

[3:35:10] be included ... when it comes to ... being able

[3:35:14] to be given this degree out of heightened density I

[3:35:18] am concerned about the amount of time that it may

[3:35:21] take for the other stage of some for those of

[3:35:24] us within the table I think ... with counselor young

[3:35:26] I think ... the dockside and real yards have almost

[3:35:32] been about fifteen years is that maybe not maybe twenty

[3:35:35] on one of them I think when I first came

[3:35:37] on council one of them ... what's it was so

[3:35:40] hard by by the developer I'm not saying that this

[3:35:44] is this could happen but I I'm just concerned about

[3:35:47] at the time of for some of the other amenities

[3:35:50] and

[3:35:51] I you know I'm really surprised that affordable housing is

[3:35:55] consider really up ... something we should celebrate when it's

[3:36:00] twenty three units out of the office of five hundred

[3:36:04] ten in just this this section and then the other

[3:36:08] ... phases what I heard was none have been proposed

[3:36:12] ... whether that would change I think we need to

[3:36:14] ensure that not only ... we need to ensure that

[3:36:19] the for this to go forward it is proposed ...

[3:36:23] and that ... they work also with the ... the

[3:36:27] G. R. A. to see if the amenity of the

[3:36:30] plaza is is what's desire for downtown residents or whether

[3:36:35] there's something more that ... they should be considering and

[3:36:39] whether one ... ...

[3:36:43] yeah

[3:36:45] until building could be as I said affordable ... condo

[3:36:49] I think we need a bit of a more of

[3:36:51] a mix of that is being offered so I'm concerned

[3:36:55] that I think ... as some

[3:36:58] ... mayor helps you said you hoped that there could

[3:37:00] be least PM at George's send it to public hearing

[3:37:03] well in the past we've had many times where it

[3:37:07] just has had a majority and then it has lost

[3:37:11] and defeated by council and then we come back in

[3:37:14] and it gets us to be looked at again and

[3:37:18] I think ... I'm concerned that this one is just

[3:37:20] not ready and needs more ... more time the question

[3:37:24] I did have that I don't think it has been

[3:37:27] answered or maybe I missed it is for those of

[3:37:31] us are familiar with the screen area especially around that

[3:37:36] section being ... problematic with its ground I think when

[3:37:41] we have a ticket councillor young just to call the

[3:37:43] roller coaster ride on on Vancouver street ... and and

[3:37:48] ... there was some ground concerns is the fact something

[3:37:53] that may impact any of this development

[3:38:00] through the mayor we we could check with the applicant

[3:38:02] I know certainly the properties immediately to the south of

[3:38:05] the site have that condition I wouldn't be surprised if

[3:38:09] this also has some challenging ground conditions okay yeah yeah

[3:38:14] I think there's just a lot of unanswered questions for

[3:38:17] it to move to a public hearing and I'm and

[3:38:21] as the mayor hopes that there's a majority that will

[3:38:23] support I'm hoping the majority will see that it needs

[3:38:25] more work

[3:38:27] thank you very much councillor Potts

[3:38:31] oh sorry ms lane with that will council is not

[3:38:33] back yet so I don't think there's much point sharing

[3:38:35] the information he needs so we'll I didn't think about

[3:38:37] that though but we'll go to you and when he

[3:38:39] gets back we'll share that information ... fair enough thanks

[3:38:42] so much thanks for the presentation ... on this in

[3:38:45] the information so far ... I think I guess comments

[3:38:49] and questions are it's in order everything's in order you

[3:38:52] that I think that it's ... we should be able

[3:38:54] to density and housing in in in general and I

[3:38:58] am nothing about the height actually concerns me but I

[3:39:01] still have some questions that councillor Loveday asked around the

[3:39:05] ... the lands left and I don't know if or

[3:39:08] if ... Mr urbis back on the line or

[3:39:12] I am here councillor thank you ... just kind of

[3:39:16] looking at starlets owned kind of documents look at it

[3:39:20] and looking at the rental market fundamentals in BC they

[3:39:24] they do seem to ... suggested the Canadian multi family

[3:39:28] sector is particularly well positioned to generate attractive returns they

[3:39:31] have a three point strategy our proof three point three

[3:39:35] points around it ... in it including the ability to

[3:39:39] acquire assets at discounted valuations and the capability to maximize

[3:39:43] value creation through repositioning efforts such as increasing rents and

[3:39:47] so just looking at how they're really looking at rising

[3:39:50] demand for purpose built rental in BC and scarcity of

[3:39:52] product as a reason to move into this market just

[3:39:56] wondering how that kind of ... in and then also

[3:39:59] other reports that at that there are more and more

[3:40:02] acquisitions of rental properties and and development of rental without

[3:40:06] this is the same kind of devaluation that we have

[3:40:09] as seen previously like how that might affect it into

[3:40:11] the land left it seems that there there are changing

[3:40:14] conditions and ... there are quite a few more investments

[3:40:18] from

[3:40:19] particularly I'm a real estate investment trusts in BC and

[3:40:24] I'm just wondering how if that does factor into the

[3:40:28] land left in house

[3:40:31] thanks for that question counsellor ... so it does factory

[3:40:35] ... what we what we have done in our analysis

[3:40:39] is taken into account to that grants city in Victoria

[3:40:44] as well as other parts of western Canada are on

[3:40:47] the rise and so in our in our financial analysis

[3:40:51] we've made assumptions that the rental market will be stronger

[3:40:56] and stronger in terms of generating income to the owner

[3:40:59] of rental buildings going forward

[3:41:02] so not that flows into the the forecasts of the

[3:41:07] potential revenue that come from the proposed buildings that starlight

[3:41:11] is proposing in this particular instance

[3:41:15] so even with that that calculation they're still there

[3:41:20] the land left analysis still would I reflected a devaluation

[3:41:24] of the land of Christina forty two million

[3:41:28] yes that's correct ... can I just add a little

[3:41:33] bit to

[3:41:34] what goes into that ... if I if I may

[3:41:37] so I know it may be surprising for people in

[3:41:41] that you know you've got a rental apartment project that's

[3:41:46] seeking significant additional density it may be surprising to find

[3:41:50] that it doesn't create extra land value and and may

[3:41:53] in fact decrease the estimated land value ... and it

[3:41:57] really the the knob of it is that

[3:42:00] the site has so many employees that is permitted to

[3:42:04] be used for condominium development for strata apartment and when

[3:42:09] you compare strata development course strata project with a comparable

[3:42:14] rental project what's really happening is

[3:42:18] the value of the completed building is much much higher

[3:42:22] in the condo scenario than it is in the rental

[3:42:25] scenario not saying that brands aren't high but from from

[3:42:30] an apartment building investors perspective the total for the rental

[3:42:36] buildings just not valued as high as the comparable condo

[3:42:40] building and so

[3:42:43] the reality is the cost of building those two different

[3:42:46] forms of housing are very very similar ... slight differences

[3:42:50] but by and large there's not a huge difference on

[3:42:52] the construction costs so because the condo building is worth

[3:42:56] so much more

[3:42:58] in the rental building upon completion it just effectively comes

[3:43:02] out of the land value or the process one one

[3:43:06] or the other or both extent and that's what's happened

[3:43:09] in this particular exercise in terms of the analysis that

[3:43:13] what we're effectively saying is that a rental developer if

[3:43:17] they have to pay

[3:43:19] land values that are based on condominium last outliers which

[3:43:24] which is the case in this particular instance the require

[3:43:27] a very large increase in permitted density ... in order

[3:43:31] to try to hold things together financially so I hope

[3:43:35] that helps with the center

[3:43:38] yes yes thank you for that the further explanation it

[3:43:41] if it's still

[3:43:44] so it feels a bit challenging first the the reasons

[3:43:48] you you laid out there ... I I wonder to

[3:43:51] staff it is there ... a dollar figure for the

[3:43:55] ... additional contributions interim I know there is we saw

[3:43:59] the dollar figure for the art public art installation but

[3:44:02] for ... some of the ... you know the plaza

[3:44:06] installation ... some of the infrastructure right of way ...

[3:44:11] improvements

[3:44:13] is there ... any dollar figure touch that do you

[3:44:16] Sir if that's not very clear do you know how

[3:44:17] much the applicant is putting into those ... those amenities

[3:44:24] through the mayor ... that there is some plants that

[3:44:26] question for the for the public realm improvements we don't

[3:44:29] assign a dollar value for that because the applicant is

[3:44:32] ... is paying for it so ... ... we care

[3:44:35] about is the standard that that making the public aware

[3:44:38] women treatments to and that any tell policy ... with

[3:44:42] regard to the plaza ... we are currently working to

[3:44:45] that number we haven't we haven't landed on anything just

[3:44:48] yet ... but as per the staff recommendation we will

[3:44:51] be ... verifying ... the the the dollar value for

[3:44:57] the plaza with independent Quincy surveyor will qualify professional prior

[3:45:01] to public hearing so there will be a number assigned

[3:45:03] to that and it will be ... we will factor

[3:45:07] in ... inflation rates ... at the time ... the

[3:45:11] of the see if the plazas to be realized five

[3:45:13] years down the line for example

[3:45:17] thank you thank you and

[3:45:21] I'd just as on the tenants assistance plan ... I

[3:45:25] I I I respect ... the the staff report on

[3:45:29] that that

[3:45:30] there is there seems to be comfort in and

[3:45:34] again completed a tenant assistance policy at a later date

[3:45:39] at

[3:45:40] a given experience so at the public hearing sometimes information

[3:45:44] feels ... the eight you know it's just shared from

[3:45:47] one side to the other it does feel like it

[3:45:48] would I would have much more comfort if that was

[3:45:51] ... in place prior to up up at sending this

[3:45:55] forward to public hearing and just because that's a very

[3:45:58] important element I think of of our policy so I

[3:46:03] think that's more of a a comment and I guess

[3:46:05] I just a final comment ...

[3:46:08] again I think that we really need to be bold

[3:46:11] in terms of building I think that there is all

[3:46:13] there is benefit in and ... and looking at the

[3:46:17] development of this scale ... I did I did and

[3:46:21] I do look forward to hearing the rest of my

[3:46:23] colleagues comments I I do feel like there is more

[3:46:27] that can be generated from this particular development given the

[3:46:33] in the applicant's own understanding of how much a wealth

[3:46:37] this will generate and ... and what a lucrative opportunity

[3:46:42] ... so I think that

[3:46:45] there is great potential here but I think it may

[3:46:47] be a few refinements will really help at garner more

[3:46:50] support for this project

[3:46:52] okay thank you M. before eight ... before the floor

[3:46:56] leaves you councillor Potts ... use he suggested some more

[3:46:59] refinements ... the way to do that would be through

[3:47:02] amendment if you're ready willing and able ...

[3:47:07] I would like to listen to the rest of my

[3:47:09] colleagues and then okay perfect then I can yeah thank

[3:47:11] you that's that's fair as well so maybe we can

[3:47:13] all keep list of as a potential amendments as well

[3:47:16] based on what people have said ... yeah councillor Isitt

[3:47:19] is back ms Wayne can you give the information that

[3:47:23] you that was requested earlier

[3:47:25] yes thanks and just to summarize for what else benefit

[3:47:27] ... councillor eyes it was asking us ... the difference

[3:47:31] in floor a number of stories um if the applicant

[3:47:35] was to reduce the density from what's being proposed down

[3:47:38] to what the OCP supports which is five point five

[3:47:41] to one episode so we did when those numbers ...

[3:47:45] in the breaking things there's a time for that and

[3:47:47] it works out to be approximately three and a half

[3:47:49] stories tower

[3:47:53] if that helps three and a half stories less per

[3:47:55] tower yes okay so yes less sorry input some PCS

[3:48:00] three now street last

[3:48:02] do I have the floor you don't ... but you'll

[3:48:04] get it back

[3:48:06] councillor Loveday is next in cancer as a Dubow young

[3:48:13] yeah I'm gonna stick with

[3:48:17] questions watch second street comments ... who ... more questions

[3:48:23] ... what with our

[3:48:26] housing policies what would be the annual or the monthly

[3:48:31] rent on a median housing unit

[3:48:41] through the mayor we do you have ... our housing

[3:48:43] plan is ... who worked on the tenant assistance plan

[3:48:46] on the line ... I'm hoping they are listening ...

[3:48:50] I think it may be best directed to this stuff

[3:48:54] so you the question is what would the monthly rent

[3:48:56] be according to the city's housing affordability policy yeah on

[3:48:59] the on the units that are considered affordable but they're

[3:49:02] two medium great so so ms Tunis are you the

[3:49:06] best person to answer that question

[3:49:17] hello sorry bout that ... I'm just I think I'll

[3:49:21] defer to ... ... ms Wayne on on that who

[3:49:26] is dealing directly with the housing agreement as I

[3:49:31] just sorry just looks for clear answer for clarity I

[3:49:35] think what we need is just what does the city's

[3:49:39] housing affordability policy safe what is the what's the rent

[3:49:42] for median people are earning a median income according to

[3:49:45] our definition of affordability what's the what's the rent and

[3:49:48] maybe with this is something we need to just let

[3:49:50] staff have a look at the policy and get back

[3:49:53] that would

[3:49:55] we do have ... another member stuff and housing planning

[3:49:59] Margot ... who's of the times that question okay Mister

[3:50:03] might as go ahead

[3:50:05] ... yeah thank you mayor and council so I'm just

[3:50:08] looking at our Victoria housing strategy ... and we have

[3:50:11] a tabled affordable rents so the median income ... average

[3:50:16] rents for a bachelor unit is eight hundred and seventy

[3:50:19] five dollars per month one bedroom ... one thousand fifty

[3:50:24] two bedroom is ... one thousand three hundred and a

[3:50:27] three bedroom is seventeen fifty

[3:50:30] I hope that helps and that's just taken straight from

[3:50:33] the Victoria housing strategy section on housing affordability

[3:50:39] yes that does help I'm basically what I'm doing is

[3:50:42] I'm looking at the rents that are currently being paid

[3:50:46] on by the people who will be displaced and ...

[3:50:49] their rents are available within the

[3:50:52] ... the tenant assistance plans and in so trying to

[3:50:56] see

[3:50:58] how how comparable they are to what's being replaced it's

[3:51:03] still a very

[3:51:05] minimal amount of affordable housing that's being proposed as part

[3:51:09] of this development when ... especially when looking at fifteen

[3:51:14] units are being lost at that are are that are

[3:51:17] at attainable rates ...

[3:51:21] specifically a couple ... three two bedrooms as well ...

[3:51:27] so I and I'm not sure the

[3:51:29] the unit mix of the full ... development here and

[3:51:33] that's that's one question I have is ... in leaders

[3:51:37] stages what guarantees do we have that there will be

[3:51:43] family housing ... and that it will just be bachelors

[3:51:49] thank you for the question yet with like you say

[3:51:52] and we don't have the the final unit right down

[3:51:56] to the later phases however we do know is that

[3:51:59] there are townhouses ... proposed again be flanking the squat

[3:52:03] the public plaza ... on the view street green for

[3:52:06] example ... so is it is anticipated that the mix

[3:52:10] will be similar to the first phase

[3:52:14] on this part of the first phase wait while we

[3:52:16] ought we are tying down the ... the exact unit

[3:52:20] makes illegal agreements ... as part of the first phase

[3:52:24] um so there is there is the option to consider

[3:52:27] ... a similar mix is possibly to faces through the

[3:52:30] legal agreement

[3:52:33] so is it possible then to

[3:52:36] it is what I'm hearing that it would be possible

[3:52:38] to ... request or require at legal agreement now that

[3:52:43] would lock in

[3:52:45] unit mixes on the future buildings I think I would

[3:52:48] have to be some ... element of flexibility ... given

[3:52:52] the fact we don't know what the total numbers up

[3:52:54] but ... I don't see there being any issues with

[3:52:58] ... having a proportional amount ... for example you just

[3:53:01] have to be carefully what it

[3:53:06] well I will state

[3:53:09] my intent to make a an amendment of that sort

[3:53:12] ... and leave it up to our competent staff to

[3:53:16] figure out the the right wording ... to make that

[3:53:19] as careful that needs to be ...

[3:53:24] looking

[3:53:27] at the

[3:53:30]

[3:53:31] plaza what is anticipated to be

[3:53:36] considering we we just have conceptual designs at this point

[3:53:40] is there ...

[3:53:42] what is the impediment to requiring a detailed design at

[3:53:47] this point that could then be the legal obligation moving

[3:53:51] forward ...

[3:53:54] yes Sir is the applicant has obviously come forward with

[3:53:58] the development of just for the first phase ... and

[3:54:03] ultimately yeah we we don't have a development for that

[3:54:06] for the latest plaza if the applicant had agreed to

[3:54:09] come forward with a development for the plaza the the

[3:54:13] any limiting factor I suppose from that perspective will be

[3:54:16] timing typically develop permits have an expiration date of two

[3:54:20] years so they would need to begin construction on the

[3:54:23] normal amount payments ... timing ... they would need to

[3:54:27] S. substantially stock committee ... construction within two minutes two

[3:54:31] years of that development being issued out of see we

[3:54:35] we mentioned earlier in the meeting that you know if

[3:54:37] the timing of that is for you not going to

[3:54:39] happen to at least five years from now ... however

[3:54:42] council does have the authorization to provide a development with

[3:54:45] a longer time frame ... but ultimately we don't we

[3:54:48] don't have the down payment for the

[3:54:50] plaza at this stage so we're trying to secure rate

[3:54:54] through other mechanisms legal agreement the design guidelines ... ...

[3:54:59] the conceptually zoning booklet or days will play into the

[3:55:02] leak agreements for how how that plazas realized

[3:55:06] just if I if I may add something

[3:55:09] there's another part to this that if even if the

[3:55:12] applicant did hurt the development permit for the entire site

[3:55:15] right now and council approved of development permit lap state

[3:55:19] of several years out there's nothing to compel a developer

[3:55:22] to build the exact they they can come forward with

[3:55:26] a new development permit so ... there's always the possibility

[3:55:29] that a design may change but it has to go

[3:55:32] back to council and council needs can

[3:55:35] approve it or not

[3:55:38] yeah and I think

[3:55:41] you know obviously what we're trying to do is

[3:55:45] get as much as of what is ... promised in

[3:55:50] terms of the plaza to be ... locked in through

[3:55:54] legal agreements as early as possible and ... make sure

[3:55:59] that it is actually the amenity that it's purported to

[3:56:02] be ... you know we

[3:56:06] you go to it you go to some majors cities

[3:56:09] that have ... towers and huge plazas and there's nobody

[3:56:13] in because they're really poorly designed and it's you know

[3:56:17] it's one of the biggest public you know because I

[3:56:19] public spaces in the neighborhood ... but if people are

[3:56:23] choosing to sit ...

[3:56:25] anywhere else because it's ... you know it's a dead

[3:56:28] zone that's in the shadow of a large building so

[3:56:32] we we wanna make sure that this is thoughtfully designed

[3:56:35] and I think

[3:56:37] I think the route I I personally would have more

[3:56:39] comfort if there is ...

[3:56:41] Sir to a detailed design before voting on

[3:56:47]

[3:56:48] a rezoning that would then grant them the right to

[3:56:52] that ...

[3:56:54] density at least within the OCP I don't know if

[3:56:56] there's further comments or if I'm just ranting at this

[3:56:59] point but I'm turning your comments into amendments okay ...

[3:57:06] create

[3:57:13] maybe I will all

[3:57:16] I'll see the floor for now okay thank you all

[3:57:18] come back to and councillor Potts I turn your comments

[3:57:20] into amendments to so ... maybe when it's time to

[3:57:23] come back to me I can try some of them

[3:57:24] I councillor Isitt people young

[3:57:28] ... I think ... for redevelopment of these parcels parcels

[3:57:33] to be suitable ... I think the applications need to

[3:57:38] substantially rain in ... the ... aspirations particularly with respect

[3:57:43] to height ... I think the inconsistency with policy breaches

[3:57:48] way too far ... I think the cleanest way to

[3:57:51] proceed would be with the referral motion ... hearing that

[3:57:56] other colleagues have potential amendments I think ... those could

[3:58:00] still be accomplished through amendments to a referral motion so

[3:58:03] I think now is as good a time as any

[3:58:05] to attempt referral motion so I'd like to move that

[3:58:09] the application be referred to staff

[3:58:13] to work with the applicant

[3:58:17] to revise the application

[3:58:22] to achieve greater consistency

[3:58:27] with the OCP

[3:58:31] particularly as it pertains

[3:58:35] to the height of the towers

[3:58:38] and the density

[3:58:40] second by councillor Thornton Joe okay go ahead I believe

[3:58:44] I motivated with my comments prior to moving the referral

[3:58:47] motion soul listen to my colleagues councillor Thornton Joe was

[3:58:51] a seconder to the referral motion and then councillor Dubow

[3:58:54] just a question to the mover when you mention ...

[3:58:57] amendments that councillors might make where with that I think

[3:59:02] it could be right now so it could be an

[3:59:04] amendment to you could amend the referral motion to add

[3:59:07] additional language for other things you would want to see

[3:59:09] addresses visitor

[3:59:13] okay

[3:59:17] I want to see if there's any other speakers first

[3:59:19] let me get my thought okay thank you councillor Dubow

[3:59:22] point of order

[3:59:24] to explain the material part of a previous okay ...

[3:59:27] it could be simply and it could be a river

[3:59:30] amendments could be support and to the could just be

[3:59:33] added at the end any additional points thank you okay

[3:59:36] thank you councillor Dubow ... thanks mayor helps ... I

[3:59:41] do agree a lot of comments that has being raised

[3:59:45] previously on speaking on this and motion on the floor

[3:59:51] I'll come back my comments to the original and to

[3:59:55] the application but speaking on the motion I would also

[3:59:59] like to move amendment to the mall and to the

[4:00:03] motion

[4:00:04] on

[4:00:06] she vice and a and the yeah

[4:00:11] he did do you do units

[4:00:21] why is the improvise the number of doing units to

[4:00:25] reflect more free and

[4:00:28] 3 on 2 bedrooms

[4:00:32] do you mean for all phases

[4:00:34] all faces okay

[4:00:39] okay moved and seconded so now we're on an amendment

[4:00:41] to the referral motion ... with the mover like to

[4:00:45] motivate and then I'll go to the seconder yes mayor

[4:00:49] helps thank you I I think there's this perception that

[4:00:53] the printer is are looking one fateful and but that's

[4:00:57] not the case and in my perspective I say renter

[4:01:02] on and I've seen a lot of rain too is

[4:01:04] when you have three bedrooms and one is cheaper second

[4:01:09] you have your own community in terms of sharing and

[4:01:15] the that that the units ... and one one room

[4:01:20] there could be coupled in the other room there could

[4:01:23] be a couple so that created small as send software

[4:01:28] and community on and on and also ease prophetical and

[4:01:33] in terms of increasing not only family unit spot Mirantis

[4:01:39] also pretty fair and and two or three bedrooms because

[4:01:44] of the cost but it is because of socializing and

[4:01:48] having and other household this in the house so ...

[4:01:52] yeah I believe this always perception wrenches and preferred one

[4:01:56] pencil but in my experience that's not the case okay

[4:02:01] thank you very much the seconder to the amendment councillor

[4:02:03] Austin I'm gonna propose an amendment ... which is the

[4:02:09] number of units ... I guess replace that with unit

[4:02:12] mix

[4:02:15] okay is there a seconder seconded by councillor Loveday

[4:02:19] okay a discussion on changing number of units to unit

[4:02:21] mix

[4:02:23] all those in favor how did you wanna speak any

[4:02:26] opposed okay that's just basically a language to okay okay

[4:02:30] councillor Isitt you still have the floor and boy you

[4:02:32] can I just say how nice it is to have

[4:02:33] everybody here I don't have to ask anyone to turn

[4:02:36] on their cameras it's just great go ahead I support

[4:02:39] this ... I think with the building with buildings that

[4:02:42] are so large and have so many units envisioned we

[4:02:46] do have to make sure they're appropriate for families and

[4:02:49] ... so I think ...

[4:02:52] ... nudging the applicant in this direction is a good

[4:02:55] step to take okay anyone else want to comment on

[4:02:58] this councillor Thornton Joe

[4:03:01] wish to staff when we talk about

[4:03:05] units sold whether it's a bachelor or one bedroom

[4:03:10] is there any can you remind me of the recall

[4:03:13] is there a requirement of a size so say for

[4:03:17] example if a motion was from four to at more

[4:03:20] affordable housing could then the applicant take to affordable

[4:03:26] bachelors and make an even smaller making three it looks

[4:03:30] so is there any record are we saying we want

[4:03:33] more of a mix ... that we're insuring that the

[4:03:37] sizes of the units are actually

[4:03:41] appropriate

[4:03:43] and not that we just get a mix but they're

[4:03:45] smaller and smaller think of a question we don't actually

[4:03:48] have any regulations in the zoning bylaw ... at this

[4:03:52] particular location that stipulated Eminem's unit size in some sense

[4:03:58] throughout the city there is a basic requirement but that

[4:04:01] typically in the low density neighborhoods not in the downtown

[4:04:05] okay I will support this but I was just curious

[4:04:07] on

[4:04:09] on on size of units okay thank you

[4:04:13] I thank you on the amendment that's on the table

[4:04:15] councillor young no okay I'm I'm I'm gonna speak on

[4:04:19] the amendment ... I support this but only as part

[4:04:23] of the main motion to move this forward ... as

[4:04:26] I said earlier I think sort of the stick to

[4:04:29] the yes it more two and three bedroom units would

[4:04:31] be welcome ... I think sending this forward with our

[4:04:34] stipulations rather than back with their stipulations I fundamentally don't

[4:04:37] support the motion to refer but I will as I

[4:04:40] guess I won't support the amendment even though in principle

[4:04:42] I do I just want council to know that I

[4:04:43] would support this as added to up forward it ...

[4:04:46] for for revision but not send it back ... so

[4:04:50] I'll leave it at that so I guess I won't

[4:04:51] support the amendment even though in principle I do ...

[4:04:54] anyone else wanna speak on the amendment

[4:04:57] okay all yes councillor Loveday

[4:05:00] yeah it's kind of an interest we're in an interesting

[4:05:02] place because if there is ... there's an a motion

[4:05:05] to refer that is ... based on opposition to the

[4:05:10] height and density ... and I personally can't support sending

[4:05:16] it to public hearing today ...

[4:05:20] but if the if the proposal had ... more in

[4:05:25] terms of affordability unit mix ... amenities locked in and

[4:05:31] all of the things that are laid out in the

[4:05:35] in the report as ... going forward I think I

[4:05:38] need to see that at a committee of the whole

[4:05:40] I can't I don't have ... you know we talked

[4:05:43] about leaps of faith and trust I don't have that

[4:05:46] trust going into the public hearing so I need to

[4:05:48] see it again ... and ...

[4:05:51] but we're in a weird place because we've got this

[4:05:53] referral that's based on a very specific thing ... rather

[4:05:57] than ...

[4:05:59] love the other ... issues that have been raised by

[4:06:03] other colleagues thank you just a point of processes for

[4:06:06] council's information ... based on what councillor they said I

[4:06:08] could have this wrong but I don't think I do

[4:06:10] because I just checked in with some answers about it

[4:06:12] we will see this again at a committee of the

[4:06:15] whole because of the OCP amendment is that correct so

[4:06:17] this will come back to committee of the whole anyway

[4:06:20] even if we don't refer it because the OCP amendment

[4:06:22] has to come back to committee of the whole can

[4:06:23] staff confirm that's correct that's correct okay thank you

[4:06:28] so on this amendment any further discussion

[4:06:32] yes go ahead so with that one

[4:06:37] why then is it

[4:06:39] recommended the way it is with with all of these

[4:06:42] stipulations of of work that is yet to be done

[4:06:46] that we're sort of being asked to approve today ...

[4:06:51] in in will will all that be work by that

[4:06:54] date be done by the time it would come back

[4:06:56] for the OCP ... the discussion

[4:07:01] yes the way the recommendation is worded is so that

[4:07:05] of all of the items listed as a through

[4:07:10] R. or whatever whatever the

[4:07:14] the although that are that we would be concurrently working

[4:07:17] on all those legal agreements all those revisions things that

[4:07:20] we need the applicant to address plus anything council wants

[4:07:23] to add the OCP referral would occur so that it

[4:07:27] would be referred out it to where staff are recommending

[4:07:31] to owners and occupiers within two hundred meters of the

[4:07:34] subject property and then there'll be a follow up committee

[4:07:37] of the whole report that would button this all down

[4:07:40] back to committee of the whole for council finally considered

[4:07:43] whether it was ready to take it to first and

[4:07:46] second reading

[4:07:48] so N. we would at that point receive all of

[4:07:52] the public input from the two hundred

[4:07:54] eater

[4:07:57] mailer yes that's correct thank you

[4:08:00] okay thank you on this amendment here to review amend

[4:08:03] the referral motion counselor Loveday and counselor sorry councillor Dubow

[4:08:07] thanks mayor helps and I I I do support on

[4:08:12] ... on ... it it it's nice to see the

[4:08:15] the rest of the consistent pattern because one thing I

[4:08:19] want to guarantees I don't and actually support the the

[4:08:24] whole projects for our cities but I I I I

[4:08:28] just wanna achieve as much as icon interim resolve to

[4:08:32] include if it might be supported the rest of the

[4:08:36] council because the one the the words capacity on supply

[4:08:42] that treat all the units are secret violence but that

[4:08:45] are hugely important differences between units I'm not the least

[4:08:49] affordable so and Lisa this is one and making sure

[4:08:54] that is a lie and the unit size is increased

[4:08:59] but there is a lot of other things that I

[4:09:03] I do not support in the application

[4:09:07] on this amendment all those in favor of the amendment

[4:09:11] those opposed

[4:09:13] I am opposed in principle I guess okay so the

[4:09:16] amendment carries ... now back to the motion to refer

[4:09:18] as amended accounts for young and then I'd like to

[4:09:21] add myself and then councillor Thornton Joe

[4:09:26] thank you I'm I'm ... wrestling with the ... with

[4:09:31] the motion on the floor

[4:09:34] a little bit

[4:09:37] I I think it does hit the main the main

[4:09:42] issue ...

[4:09:44] obviously a lot of issues have been raised for us

[4:09:48] ... the ... the DRA report with public comments ...

[4:09:54] raised concerns about the project not being necessary

[4:10:00] or that they preferred the current configuration of the London

[4:10:04] drugs block or that there's been enough building

[4:10:10] ... in the neighborhood and people are tired of it

[4:10:14] or that ... starlight is not a good term rental

[4:10:18] manager

[4:10:19] those those are issues that

[4:10:24] I don't I don't think we can really ... address

[4:10:28] in in ... a decision ... it is true there's

[4:10:33] been a lot of building and Victoria lately but ...

[4:10:37] and it is true it's hard to drive around the

[4:10:41] downtown without to

[4:10:43] bumping into lanes that are closed for construction but ...

[4:10:47] that's just the nature of how

[4:10:51] the development proceeds it's seems to ... seems to come

[4:10:55] in in waves

[4:10:58] ... certainly having been this is my second London drugs

[4:11:02] rezoning and ... at the time of the first one

[4:11:07] it was felt there was a concern that London drugs

[4:11:09] was in fact to suburban type development it's it's it's

[4:11:13] basically a big store with parking in front of it

[4:11:18] that people ... felt at that time might be more

[4:11:23] suitable to a suburban area ... it was on the

[4:11:27] fringes of downtown it seems to have been quite successful

[4:11:30] people like it ... but perhaps it is true that

[4:11:33] it's time now ... to ... to move on

[4:11:39]

[4:11:41] I guess what might be my reservations about the motion

[4:11:48] to refer in this farm

[4:11:52] is that it is not providing a lot of guidance

[4:11:57] to the developer

[4:11:59] in terms of how to how to achieve that

[4:12:03] ... and ... that's partly because there's an inconsistency of

[4:12:10] a split on council and ... a number of of

[4:12:15] ... my colleagues have expressed their desire for more affordability

[4:12:21] ... within the project and that of course means ...

[4:12:26] in essence that some some kind of ... the developer

[4:12:33] according to ... certainly according to the land left analysis

[4:12:39] is going to require more density rather than last

[4:12:43] I would say I'm more in the school of councillor

[4:12:48] Thornton Joe

[4:12:49] ... suggested and again this reflects exactly a comment from

[4:12:54] the ... Coriolis consultant ... which is that a lot

[4:13:00] of this density we are told this is because we

[4:13:04] are requiring a this project to be entirely rental

[4:13:10] I am by no means clear that by the time

[4:13:16] the developer is facing a decision to build that the

[4:13:20] current situation of there being a lot of demand for

[4:13:24] rental and fairly robust rental rates is still going to

[4:13:29] apply I think it it may well be that ...

[4:13:34] that the lady is a lot longer than we think

[4:13:38] it will be easy ... perhaps indefinite in in the

[4:13:41] sense that at some point the owner will come back

[4:13:44] and say we just can't builders there's not enough interest

[4:13:48] in rental ... and and ... given the densities even

[4:13:53] the densities that are there ... we can't we can't

[4:13:57] achieve it

[4:13:59] so and and

[4:14:03] and as I say that the problem is that there's

[4:14:05] a split on council at the moment between those who

[4:14:11] ... maybe people prepared to live with a density but

[4:14:14] want more affordability and ... those who feel well maybe

[4:14:20] of a mixed up proposal who with some ... condominiums

[4:14:26] oops under one of these affordable condominium programs and less

[4:14:30] rental might allow the developer to proceed with the project

[4:14:35] ...

[4:14:37] at

[4:14:39] at a at a lower density and then the other

[4:14:41] alternative of course is to

[4:14:44] ... really put our planning staff's feet to the fire

[4:14:49] and ask them that the same question and I did

[4:14:51] ask ms Wayne earlier ... but perhaps they could give

[4:14:57] ... further consideration to which is ... would the eastern

[4:15:02] most of block after block that phase one stand on

[4:15:06] its own and would they be prepared to recommend that

[4:15:10] and come forward with a recommendation on ... that block

[4:15:16] alone and leave the entire issue of the nine hundred

[4:15:21] block ... up in the air ... and I I

[4:15:26] don't know whether

[4:15:28] ... whether that is ... direction that in the end

[4:15:31] council might

[4:15:33] might need to go

[4:15:36] ... hi I. E. hi I did have a bit

[4:15:39] of discussion with the DRA board about about this ...

[4:15:45] the public open space and perhaps not quite enough attention

[4:15:49] has been paid to it I suggested that the D.

[4:15:53] R. A.'s most recent letter did indicate they had a

[4:15:56] concern

[4:15:58] ... that this space would turn into essentially ... Caperton

[4:16:04] sidewalk cafeterias spilling out from restaurants ...

[4:16:08] adjunct to retail space of course and so forth and

[4:16:12] would not actually present as usable public open space

[4:16:16] ... there's also the whole issue of the management of

[4:16:19] the space and what exactly a public right of way

[4:16:23] means ...

[4:16:27] I just confirmed on the way over here from

[4:16:31] the city hall that indeed as just one example our

[4:16:36] regulations on the CRD's regulations on smoking in public parks

[4:16:42] are are not very vigorously enforced ... and do you

[4:16:47] know on on any day you can say see people

[4:16:50] smoking in the parks are bylaw staff and police have

[4:16:55] a lot more to do than ... ticketing people for

[4:16:58] smoking

[4:16:59] a private manager would just say to those individuals ...

[4:17:04] you must leave there's no smoking here but I can't

[4:17:07] arrest you but

[4:17:09] you can you can't be here and that would apply

[4:17:12] to a whole lot of behaviors like

[4:17:15] camping for example ... that we as a city either

[4:17:20] do cannot or choose not to enforce ... but a

[4:17:23] private owner of a publicly accessible space ... might want

[4:17:29] to enforce in and indeed surrounding residents might want to

[4:17:33] see in force

[4:17:35] ... so I think the the issue of how the

[4:17:39] public open space is to be managed as well as

[4:17:43] the design of it ... needs ... some more ...

[4:17:47] consideration ... in the end I will ...

[4:17:54] probably support this referral motion but I'm very conscious that

[4:18:02] it's ...

[4:18:05] it leaves open the whole issue of how it is

[4:18:08] to be achieved

[4:18:10] ... and what response the developer will come back with

[4:18:18] and I

[4:18:20] a

[4:18:22]

[4:18:24] I don't think it's worth my suggesting at this moment

[4:18:28] that

[4:18:29] we would be

[4:18:31] entertain more condominiums because I don't think that would be

[4:18:35] supported by council I think ... requirement for more affordability

[4:18:40] would be working in the opposite direction

[4:18:43] ... and it's even possible as I say that we

[4:18:46] might we might see the developer come back with a

[4:18:49] split up proposal so in the end I am for

[4:18:55] reasons that I think my colleagues have

[4:18:58] have a dress I think there is just a little

[4:19:02] bit too much density here I think there's a lot

[4:19:05] of promise in the proposal I'd like the idea of

[4:19:08] the public space in the downtown which as you said

[4:19:11] mayor helps is is very badly needed ... and I

[4:19:16] think we do have to be careful about it exactly

[4:19:19] how it's designed and and managed ... meant to nail

[4:19:25] those things down ... at this moment ... I am

[4:19:30] I I think there is I am basically I I

[4:19:34] think I think we received some thoughtful feedback that the

[4:19:38] heights I just a little more than than people want

[4:19:41] to see we've we've so far we have not had

[4:19:45] a lot of objections to height in the downtown ...

[4:19:49] but I I think it we were starting to I

[4:19:52] think ... get some push back people are starting to

[4:19:56] feel maybe we're going a little bit too far with

[4:20:00] heights and densities hello we are all well aware of

[4:20:03] the of the benefits of of those high towers ...

[4:20:09] but hi I think on balance time ... I'm going

[4:20:14] to ...

[4:20:16] support this motion to refer okay thank you on the

[4:20:19] motion to refer I've got councillor Thornton Joe and then

[4:20:21] myself councillor Joe go ahead

[4:20:24] do we deal with move the time at two oh

[4:20:27] yes thank you for reminding me I thought yes we

[4:20:29] need a motion to extend the meeting till three thirty

[4:20:31] I think would be reasonable councillor Thornton Joe is there

[4:20:33] a seconder second by councillor Potts all those in favor

[4:20:36] of so doing any opposed thanks councillor Joe so I'd

[4:20:40] like to add an amendment ...

[4:20:44] and that will be the

[4:20:48] meeting with the D. R. A.

[4:20:53] land use committee

[4:20:56] so that number 3

[4:20:58] sorry

[4:21:00] to confirm that a plazas the most desired amenity amenity

[4:21:04] for

[4:21:05] the neighborhood

[4:21:07] okay any discussion

[4:21:09] and just

[4:21:11] just a quick leave on that is that ... if

[4:21:14] the land use committee feel that they're excited about this

[4:21:18] and then I can support this from from what I

[4:21:20] read in their letter ...

[4:21:24] that they are looking for more they have no parks

[4:21:27] no playgrounds dog runs ... and so those are the

[4:21:32] things that they mentioned that that they would so if

[4:21:35] anything could be achieved I'd like to know

[4:21:38] any further discussion councillor Loveday

[4:21:42] yeah on this

[4:21:44] was the discussion

[4:21:47] with the applicant about about this plaza being

[4:21:52] park instead of a plaza

[4:21:57] I am through the mayor of the the policy direction

[4:21:59] ... just a few lights that ... an open plaza

[4:22:02] she private provided in this location so urban plazas but

[4:22:06] I. nature ... ... do tend to have more hot

[4:22:09] scape and green space ... say the policy doesn't really

[4:22:13] direct ... stuff one way or another ... into in

[4:22:17] terms of leaning towards more green space ... expenses question

[4:22:22] was there any discussion regarding the

[4:22:28] ownership of the space ... like by the city rather

[4:22:31] than the applicant has a

[4:22:34] like as a park public space

[4:22:40] there it is yeah

[4:22:46] I'm

[4:22:47] through the mayor that there wasn't actually discussion but in

[4:22:49] the past there's a continuous parkades underneath the ... plaza

[4:22:55] area which we often end up there's a liability in

[4:22:59] the construction and maintenance and I'm trying of membranes becomes

[4:23:02] quite a challenge

[4:23:04] right

[4:23:06] I think I do support this amendment okay thank you

[4:23:09] ... I don't support this amendment ... because I'm hoping

[4:23:12] the whole referral motion will fail ... in which case

[4:23:15] I have prepared an amendment to the main motion ...

[4:23:18] will because I agree with the comments that have been

[4:23:20] made about it needing to be more park like and

[4:23:22] I also agree with cancer Loveday's comments that we need

[4:23:24] to know now ... more what it will look like

[4:23:27] in and holding that so if if this fails on

[4:23:29] the referral motion fails I would make an amendment to

[4:23:31] the main motion that's request of the public plaza be

[4:23:34] more park like and the DP for the plaza be

[4:23:38] required ... now with an expiration date time to the

[4:23:42] proposed build out of phase two because it mitigates the

[4:23:44] risk of the two year DP I and it gives

[4:23:47] us control and it makes it more park like but

[4:23:49] I don't support of this motion on the amendment rather

[4:23:52] counter and ... go ahead just have a quick question

[4:23:54] if this motion passes doesn't mean that ... that's the

[4:23:58] end of this discussion

[4:24:01] yes if the referral motion passes but right now we're

[4:24:03] only on the amendment so you have to if the

[4:24:05] referral motion passes it just gets referred back to staff

[4:24:07] for right now will be time to comment on that

[4:24:09] right now is great yeah thank you you betcha I'll

[4:24:11] come to you for sure I anyone else on the

[4:24:13] amendment ... councillor young

[4:24:18] well ... supported because it will ... bring the whole

[4:24:23] issue of the plaza back to the T. R. A.

[4:24:27] for discussion a new just maybe should remind my colleagues

[4:24:33] the space we're talking about is is

[4:24:36] about like bastion square ... down below ... Langley down

[4:24:43] to the wharf

[4:24:45] there is an and the the park area would be

[4:24:49] I think probably smaller than the area with the tree

[4:24:52] in the in centennial square so ... hi I don't

[4:24:57] know the extent to which it could actually be enlarged

[4:25:01] certainly the T. R. A. was very concerned that it

[4:25:05] would be encroached upon by commercial activity ...

[4:25:11] the two cafeterias and retail and so forth but ...

[4:25:17] and of course it's sitting above the parkades so there's

[4:25:21] a limit out bigotry you can plant I guess

[4:25:24] ... and also that would make it pretty complicated for

[4:25:27] the city the onus is our staff told us

[4:25:31] ... but eight Hicks I I I think given the

[4:25:35] size of the place we are talking about a pretty

[4:25:40] ... constrained area and I think the DRA desire for

[4:25:45] parks and dog runs ... would have to be satisfied

[4:25:49] using

[4:25:50] other other sites any other comments on the amendment

[4:25:55] all those in favor of the amendment any opposed none

[4:25:59] opposed okay councillor Joe you still have the floor yeah

[4:26:03] ... thank you and I did want to add to

[4:26:06] them and ... but I just wanna mention accounts are

[4:26:07] young and if the plazas what time works best them

[4:26:12] will know from DRA but I've seen a small dog

[4:26:16] runs and Manhattan and I've seen other uses that place

[4:26:21] structures and smaller spaces so I think ... creativity could

[4:26:25] be achieved through here ... so I'm my next amendment

[4:26:29] and I'm looks like we're both if if it a

[4:26:31] second I'd like to I'd be happy to speak a

[4:26:34] little bit more but I would that theme ... more

[4:26:37] affordable units being considered

[4:26:41] moved and seconded this is the second time yeah I

[4:26:44] I understand councillor young saying ... by having the more

[4:26:48] for ability may mean that they are them anymore high

[4:26:51] ... they need ... something but I also have seen

[4:26:56] ... the creativity in months the development community where there's

[4:27:00] some partnerships with the ... island health or BC housing

[4:27:05] or a nonprofit and so I believe that it can

[4:27:10] be done or at least discussions can be held up

[4:27:13] to see if the more affordability ... can be cheap

[4:27:17] ... as the DR is letters sent um well basically

[4:27:21] we're getting one point five percent ... affordable housing so

[4:27:26] twenty three affordable housing out of fifteen hundred and as

[4:27:30] councillor Loveday ... I think was because I loved their

[4:27:33] councillor I said ... we're losing fifteen affordable units so

[4:27:37] basically we're getting and that gain of eight of for

[4:27:40] the so that that concerns me soon any opportunity to

[4:27:44] get a few more affordable units some partnerships ... is

[4:27:48] something that I would like to see and I know

[4:27:50] ... ... comes mayor helps is so

[4:27:55] ... she will be able to support the whole thing

[4:27:58] because of the referral ... but I I would not

[4:28:02] be able to support it going to public hearing ...

[4:28:05] at all at this point ... without well then I

[4:28:08] do believe more work needs to be done

[4:28:11] thank you to seconder want to make any comments

[4:28:15] okay I'll make a comment on this one ... hi

[4:28:19] we can we cannot ask for a fictional project to

[4:28:23] be built so we're we're asking for less height and

[4:28:25] density and more affordability we heard from the land left

[4:28:28] with the reason that they need the point five percent

[4:28:30] ... ... ... increase in density point five FSR above

[4:28:35] the OCP is because of the affordable units now I

[4:28:39] do think that we should have a motion that it

[4:28:42] goes forward to public hearing subject to more affordable units

[4:28:44] that means less profit for the developer that's okay ...

[4:28:48] but but that this doesn't actually make sense from an

[4:28:50] economic point of view we heard that without that ...

[4:28:54] point five list above the OCP which we said we're

[4:28:56] open to OCP amendments that offer more than just ...

[4:29:00] what the OCP is supposed to and so we can

[4:29:02] push them a bit more on that but we can't

[4:29:03] push them for more affordable units if we're taking away

[4:29:06] the height and density economically it doesn't make sense and

[4:29:09] it and it goes against the spirit of the kinds

[4:29:10] of policies that we've been saying that were supportive of

[4:29:13] so again I I don't support this because I would

[4:29:16] prefer we had subject more affordable units to the main

[4:29:19] motion not to this referral motion it's because this can't

[4:29:22] yeah councillor Loveday

[4:29:26] yeah I think I think it is

[4:29:29] reasonable to request more affordable units on this proposal it

[4:29:33] is a these are

[4:29:36] they will be the tallest buildings in the city it

[4:29:39] is a great increase in density over ... over the

[4:29:44] OCP and ... and height and ... I think we

[4:29:50] want a development of this size that has a good

[4:29:53] news that ... if approved would contribute a massive amount

[4:29:58] of new housing ... which is a good thing in

[4:30:00] my opinion ... but we want that housing to reflect

[4:30:04] our community and that means it needs to be diverse

[4:30:08] in its unit mix and diverse in the incomes of

[4:30:12] people who will be able to afford it in if

[4:30:14] we're looking at

[4:30:16] units that are all except for a

[4:30:19] you know what is essentially a handful ... in the

[4:30:23] current proposal ... over to you know if a one

[4:30:26] bedroom is going to be twenty three hundred dollars or

[4:30:29] something for rent like if you if that's a third

[4:30:32] of your income you need to be making sixty six

[4:30:34] hundred dollars a month and and that that isn't in

[4:30:37] line with the needs of our community so ... I

[4:30:40] think we do need to make sure that this is

[4:30:43] in line with the needs of our community and that

[4:30:45] means diversity across the unit sizes and the cost just

[4:30:50] for clarity is ... accounts are also come to a

[4:30:52] moment can you scroll up so we can see the

[4:30:54] whole thing because I just wanna I don't disagree with

[4:30:57] anything that councillor Loveday just said at all but but

[4:31:01] this it's the motion to refer is that the application

[4:31:03] be referred to staff to work with the applicant rivers

[4:31:05] revise the application have greater consistency with the OCP particularly

[4:31:09] as it pertains the height of towers and density so

[4:31:12] we're saying be consistent with the OCP and provide more

[4:31:15] affordability and unit next on on something where is our

[4:31:19] policy says he were looking to ... we're we're open

[4:31:22] to things above the OCP if they provide extremities so

[4:31:25] I agree with counselor Loveday but this this motion as

[4:31:28] were amending the referral motion doesn't in my opinion can't

[4:31:32] actually achieve what we're asking for but that will be

[4:31:34] the will of the table ... counts are also on

[4:31:36] the amendment

[4:31:38] well I was gonna say pretty much the same thing

[4:31:41] ... I do support the amendment of course but I

[4:31:43] think all these amendments are in the wrong place I

[4:31:46] don't support the referral and ... I would be happy

[4:31:49] to actually have each of these amendments attached to the

[4:31:52] original motion as subsequent conditions indeed many letters that are

[4:31:57] already there ... so I'm going to support the amendment

[4:32:01] because I think the amendment is sound in its substance

[4:32:04] but I don't think any of these amendments are appropriate

[4:32:08] in a referral motion which contains them and in fact

[4:32:11] constricts them in a way which makes it virtually impossible

[4:32:14] to accomplish so what I'm going to support the amendment

[4:32:17] because substantially sound but I'm certainly not gonna refer over

[4:32:20] support the motion to refer and I hope that's defeated

[4:32:23] that we can then have an opportunity to add motions

[4:32:25] or amendments like these that to the other original motion

[4:32:29] thank you I councillor Dubow on the amendment ... thanks

[4:32:32] mayor helps I I do support the amendment on

[4:32:36] oval of policies in place why not and require and

[4:32:45] for a full house in and but

[4:32:49] no one stops the private developers to come forward ...

[4:32:54] and and do the number is ... and tried to

[4:32:58] and provide affordable housing because the housing needs in Victoria

[4:33:05] and the target these two thousand one hundred and affordable

[4:33:09] and below market rentals and target and that is not

[4:33:13] even not knowing

[4:33:15] after two thousand sixteen what is the need because it

[4:33:19] the last housing need is the sense is that we

[4:33:22] look towards two thousand sixteen and call the ninety nine

[4:33:27] and everything else has increase the the need for more

[4:33:33] affordable and low market rates ... and this does not

[4:33:38] to fit the our target ... our ... and what

[4:33:43] we want to I. T. for the community because this

[4:33:45] is a massive project ... and what we can do

[4:33:50] is to demand more for for the public although I

[4:33:55] would policies doesn't give us those tools but said in

[4:34:00] the in the OCP eight speak social cohesion on other

[4:34:04] things at least ... we cooked and

[4:34:09] precisely a

[4:34:11] upside of the land use we could we could it

[4:34:15] is fair enough to demand more in such a massive

[4:34:19] project so I do support the amendment I know also

[4:34:22] I support the amendment to the federal

[4:34:26] the motion to refer okay thank you any further discussion

[4:34:29] on the amendment

[4:34:31] yes councillor isn't

[4:34:33] I support the amendment

[4:34:37] since the debate is expanding a bit to the main

[4:34:40] motion I think I do think this is the appropriate

[4:34:43] place to put the direction I think this because of

[4:34:46] how this application over reaches I think it requires substantially

[4:34:51] more than superficial changes and moving it along to a

[4:34:54] public hearing is it doesn't I think allow sufficient space

[4:34:59] for deliberation and revisions to occur so I think this

[4:35:02] actually does have to go back to staff rather than

[4:35:05] forwards to a public hearing

[4:35:07] thank you on the amendment any further discussion okay all

[4:35:11] those in favor of the amendment any opposed okay I'm

[4:35:15] opposed councillor young as opposed councillor Joe I believe you

[4:35:18] have one more and Isabel could you mind just for

[4:35:20] making a double it's not even no I I think

[4:35:23] of my other ones some

[4:35:26] I

[4:35:27] and changes the other one was to consider a condominium

[4:35:30] but

[4:35:32] I think I'll leave that one out and maybe the

[4:35:34] applicants as I'm sure is listening and may hear that

[4:35:38] but I don't think it needs to be part of

[4:35:39] the motion and the other one was regarding the ...

[4:35:43] the the height of the

[4:35:45] the towers in which case it's already in there but

[4:35:48] I will put my hand up for the main motion

[4:35:50] okay thank you ...

[4:35:53] well the

[4:35:54] this is the main motion this is the motion to

[4:35:56] refer well that's the main motion has been superseded by

[4:35:58] the motion to refer okay so I don't have any

[4:36:01] other amendments okay ... but I will support this ...

[4:36:06] the customer I said said ... to achieve greater consistency

[4:36:11] so doesn't say ... data has to be right with

[4:36:16] the OCP and up and the heightened density but get

[4:36:19] closer to the consistency so perhaps something can be done

[4:36:23] as you I think you mentioned that perhaps ... they

[4:36:26] will achieve less ... ... proceeds serve by making some

[4:36:30] of these changes ... but I would rather be go

[4:36:34] back to staff go back to the applicant come back

[4:36:36] to council to ... to review the changes if there

[4:36:40] is any ... because I still think it's too early

[4:36:43] to go to public hearing okay thank you I've got

[4:36:46] myself next and then councillor Andrew on the motion to

[4:36:48] refer ... I I I don't support this as is

[4:36:52] probably evident by my comments on the amendment ... as

[4:36:55] we've understood through the process ... if this motion to

[4:36:59] refer fails we can amend the main motion to add

[4:37:01] these things to it and anything else we want ...

[4:37:04] the whole process will move forward in terms of legal

[4:37:07] agreements and all of that is a whole alphabet of

[4:37:10] conditions ... and it will already come back to committee

[4:37:13] of the whole ... as part of the OCP referral

[4:37:16] so I just if if we are serious about housing

[4:37:21] and if we're serious about sustainability and climate change ...

[4:37:25] D. as counsel does that I I I kind of

[4:37:27] my eyes kind of popped out when she said this

[4:37:28] is already can take one or two years to get

[4:37:30] the public hearing I hope it's not that long with

[4:37:32] all these conditions but ... but say it does go

[4:37:35] forward are sorry it does go back the referral motion

[4:37:38] passes ... that that prolongs the process and so that

[4:37:42] by the time that this is built ... even the

[4:37:44] market rents are going to be more than they would

[4:37:46] be if it could if it goes forward today so

[4:37:48] every every time we send something back ... by the

[4:37:52] time that first person moves in

[4:37:54] the rents just by by nature ... of the rising

[4:37:57] rents will will be higher ... not to mention the

[4:38:01] fact that there will just be less housing in a

[4:38:02] much needed to ... when we're in a in a

[4:38:05] the housing crisis so I I don't support the referral

[4:38:09] motion and I just ... I I guess I've I've

[4:38:12] followed this application pretty closely as I know we all

[4:38:14] have and I know that staff really struggled with ...

[4:38:18] the

[4:38:20] the with the way that this building is gonna look

[4:38:22] and feel to human but being walking down the street

[4:38:25] and you know they could the the referral motion will

[4:38:28] essentially ... end up with probably ... Vaultier podiums and

[4:38:36] shorter towers like it was that was a good question

[4:38:38] accounts rise asal sure we can chop three point five

[4:38:41] stories off every ... tower but that will mean a

[4:38:46] less human scale experience a less favorable pedestrian experience the

[4:38:50] the public realm will be more deeply impacted if we

[4:38:54] if we do that and then with the proposal going

[4:38:57] for it so I don't support the referral motion but

[4:38:59] I do support these conditions being attached to the main

[4:39:02] motion ... should the referral motion fail accounts are Andrew

[4:39:06] on the motion to refer and then councillor Potts on

[4:39:08] the on the motion to refer hi

[4:39:12] fundamentally a I disagree with the I think it came

[4:39:16] too early because ... I for one didn't get to

[4:39:19] answer my questions and ... I have a number of

[4:39:22] issues in the report that I wanted to go through

[4:39:25] ... my only you can ask those now I think

[4:39:27] that if if that will help you decide whether or

[4:39:29] not you can vote on the motion to refer that's

[4:39:31] totally fair game so well I mean from the minute

[4:39:34] I disagree with this ... but I'm now gonna have

[4:39:38] to go through the ...

[4:39:40] I guess the ... the theater of ... ask my

[4:39:44] questions and I'll do that now I just think that

[4:39:46] we we we should ... ... ... defeat the defeat

[4:39:52] it or send it back or whatever but I think

[4:39:55] we could wait on that okay I'm gonna ask my

[4:39:57] questions now ... first question for you is ... staff

[4:40:01] is on ... and I'm just gonna ask some questions

[4:40:05] of ordinance that but I'm only doing that so the

[4:40:08] public can understand where I'm going hopefully my okay

[4:40:14] okay ... one is some the total number of units

[4:40:18] on this development will be watched at the end of

[4:40:20] the day doing project

[4:40:23] the process ... five hundred ten units for this phase

[4:40:27] ... fifteen hundred ... in total ... say fifteen hundred

[4:40:31] for the second phase I'll just confirm that number ...

[4:40:34] but I believe it's fifteen hundred for the second and

[4:40:35] third phases okay and what do we expect to be

[4:40:40] the total population living in these ... Hey

[4:40:48] I'm assuming we least one but ... is there a

[4:40:51] rate that we that we know is coming

[4:40:54] we would it would it would really depend on whether

[4:40:56] it's a single

[4:40:58] person nor a couple a couple people so probably four

[4:41:02] thousand to five thousand people and we are and ...

[4:41:06] we based on the mix of I've seen that we

[4:41:08] would see in a significant number of families there sent

[4:41:12] right

[4:41:13] maybe half

[4:41:15] it's hard to say whether it be Hoff of the

[4:41:17] total number but the ... page seven of twenty three

[4:41:21] and the reason report lists the breakdown of the

[4:41:25] ... the larger unit is ... for phase one ...

[4:41:28] safe there's a percentage amount table as well and just

[4:41:31] a car from my other point is fifteen hundred units

[4:41:33] total size thousand to a thousand forty five for the

[4:41:37] later phases five and ten for the first face to

[4:41:40] see in amenity or ... the contribution of them ...

[4:41:45] mmhm

[4:41:46] child care

[4:41:48] whom do you think that the do we know what

[4:41:51] size the child care ... the size of the childcare

[4:41:55] spaces gonna be do we know how many

[4:41:58] basements would be available in the childcare no do you

[4:42:00] think it be it it will meet the ... the

[4:42:05] amount of population that's going to be placed in that

[4:42:08] area if this proceeds

[4:42:10] yes the daycare ... spaces an interesting one ... as

[4:42:14] part it is proposed as part of the first phase

[4:42:16] ... what is shown on the development plans is a

[4:42:19] space around four hundred eighty square meters ... which the

[4:42:23] applicant has stated will potentially serve up to

[4:42:29] I think it is ... the any twentieth like twenty

[4:42:32] twenty oh sorry children ... however the not willing to

[4:42:37] commit to that size ... requirement as possible legal agreements

[4:42:42] the most of their willing to commit to an illegal

[4:42:46] agreement would be a day caspase around a hundred eighty

[4:42:48] five square meters mmhm

[4:42:51] ... so I can make questions comments at the same

[4:42:55] time right absolutely okay

[4:42:58] that concerns me because

[4:43:03] a project of this magnitude I think they they should

[4:43:07] spend more time thinking about it and ... I I

[4:43:11] I don't think that is satisfactory so the minimum is

[4:43:14] ten ten placements for for children right

[4:43:17] 3 percent

[4:43:20] it is it is hard to sell side question because

[4:43:23] we we don't actually have ... ... floor space for

[4:43:27] that lower amounts of that level that committee okay

[4:43:32] all right have we

[4:43:37] dealt with ... I'm I'm concerned about the entire project

[4:43:41] moving forward at once and that like my colleague so

[4:43:44] I've got some really concerns about the the delay between

[4:43:49] phase one and phase two I think that that is

[4:43:51] ... a lot can change ... in that amount of

[4:43:56] time and ... ... a ... to be honest with

[4:43:59] you don't think I'd be wanting to make commitments today

[4:44:03] about the future project that some ... five years down

[4:44:07] the road ... within James Bay right now this project

[4:44:11] that received a ... development permit ... ten years ago

[4:44:16] and ... now is ... just about to get built

[4:44:19] I believe and ... there's a lot of concerns about

[4:44:22] the change in time ... that's gone from the time

[4:44:25] the development permit has given that to today I think

[4:44:28] we we know what that practice so ... leaving it

[4:44:31] there that that is there I think there's a lot

[4:44:33] of on certainty in the project ... now gonna go

[4:44:37] through ... mind my notes with within the project in

[4:44:41] my colleagues please bear with me because I've I've made

[4:44:44] significant notes and and ...

[4:44:47] I've been been through this a document and several times

[4:44:51] and accounts are as ... councillor Andrew just to guide

[4:44:53] your clients so it sounds like you're leaning towards supporting

[4:44:56] the motion to refer so maybe your your comments no

[4:44:59] no I'm not okay okay it's the only if I

[4:45:02] ate

[4:45:04] if I don't support it and it goes forward the

[4:45:07] motion succeeds the none of my comments at this point

[4:45:09] I disability so that is what I'm trying to do

[4:45:12] yeah go ahead and I'm just trying to Santa I'd

[4:45:15] rather not okay ... under accessibility on page nine of

[4:45:20] the staff report you mentioned no accessibility improvements are proposed

[4:45:25] beyond what is required through the BC ... building code

[4:45:30] to propose public plans will provide and universally accessible route

[4:45:35] from gates to view street my question really kind of

[4:45:40] came up this morning when we were talking about accessibility

[4:45:44] and we know that from a housing report that we

[4:45:47] are deficient in the number at actually accessible units that

[4:45:51] we have within with rental ... buildings around them the

[4:45:55] city ... I understand other municipalities have guidelines when someone

[4:46:00] is building rental building to place accessible units with in

[4:46:05] the billing ... did we consider placing ... asking for

[4:46:10] the applicant to create term accessible suites in in this

[4:46:15] development

[4:46:22] through the merits this is not an area that the

[4:46:24] city has a policy it is something that we do

[4:46:26] highlight for applicants Butta that's about as far as we

[4:46:31] can take it so I don't think that that is

[4:46:33] very ... equitable and so ... ... I would like

[4:46:39] to see I'm not gonna do it is a motion

[4:46:41] to to the ... developer I'm sure is that listing

[4:46:44] I would like to see ... the standard should be

[4:46:47] five percent accessible sweet to cross the ... the board

[4:46:52] so I would like to see accessible suites there and

[4:46:55] that doesn't mean just putting in ... ... disabled ...

[4:47:00] buttons and on elevators and so honest insuring that the

[4:47:04] actual units are ... built in flexibility when we go

[4:47:10] to page seventeen of your report talking about wind ...

[4:47:15] you you mentioned you're going to get another wind ...

[4:47:18] steady there and I just wanted to ask about the

[4:47:24] ... the situation in the in the public space that

[4:47:30] they are going we've been discussing do we do we

[4:47:33] know what that the wind level in that area would

[4:47:36] be

[4:47:37] yes to the mat ... I couldn't tell you exactly

[4:47:40] the correct terminology they they cut they have very unusual

[4:47:43] classifications ... in that hierarchy of what's acceptable what's not

[4:47:47] acceptable ... but I can tell you that the plaza

[4:47:50] didn't raise any ... concerns or red flags through that

[4:47:54] ... through the wind study as being an area of

[4:47:57] concern there is a concern where that primarily related to

[4:48:00] the corner of Quadra and the streets ... on the

[4:48:03] ground floor and then the terraces the towers but nothing

[4:48:06] within the plaza okay and then when we look in

[4:48:08] the in the surrounding areas tell us what we have

[4:48:11] notably beauty hours just across from view street that one

[4:48:14] not have been any any impact upon the on on

[4:48:18] the wind in that area and I'm only and again

[4:48:20] as a lay person and this is why I'm asking

[4:48:22] this question ... you I've I've been in several buildings

[4:48:26] ... ... on the on the street in several building

[4:48:30] expression Toronto Frances round comments quote when they have a

[4:48:33] number of towns and the more they built towers the

[4:48:35] wind get that area became I'm just

[4:48:40] putting that out there to ... do we have any

[4:48:42] in information on is it just the towns that that

[4:48:45] they just study that the site what did they look

[4:48:48] at how that would relate to some of the buildings

[4:48:51] in the area and if if it would increase the

[4:48:53] the wind flow through the through that area

[4:48:56] the wind city primarily related to the septic sites in

[4:48:59] the streets that join the subject science

[4:49:05] it was sitting on the desert

[4:49:08] ... than an inline I think that I think they

[4:49:13] need to ... show ... wind the the effect of

[4:49:17] the wind ... it with in relation to other of

[4:49:20] the buildings ...

[4:49:24] you talked about that today

[4:49:27]

[4:49:30] talked with

[4:49:49] could you talk a bit about on page

[4:49:54] any final page that page twenty two about encroachment agreements

[4:50:00] and ... although I understand it for the for the

[4:50:03] public could you please explain what this will mean to

[4:50:08] the area once we start to build ... once they

[4:50:12] start to build at this project was full

[4:50:17] ... yes saving Christian agreement said this is a typical

[4:50:22] requirement ... whether it's gonna be I'm complaining I'm on

[4:50:25] the public property ... so this is essentially just a

[4:50:29] authorization for council to do that ... sometimes it's not

[4:50:32] necessary ... but our stuff engineering have deemed in this

[4:50:36] case it will be

[4:50:38] okay thank you

[4:50:41] just for a bit of further clarification anchor pending is

[4:50:44] just basically a rod that goes through to the sidewalks

[4:50:47] of the at the shore and stays in place there's

[4:50:49] nothing visible or impacting the public over the long term

[4:50:54] from the trees that are going to be pulled out

[4:50:58] ... and will be replaced will they be replaced with

[4:51:02] some mature trees or when they go to them

[4:51:09] due to be placed requirements on that

[4:51:14] through the mayor press second answer that one so ...

[4:51:16] art the trees will be replaced the species ... will

[4:51:19] be determined ... further down the line ... in that

[4:51:23] more detailed design process ... but they will be smaller

[4:51:26] trees that will be planted as is typical with them

[4:51:30] new plantings and those will be put in soil volumes

[4:51:34] ... that will allow for their for them to reach

[4:51:36] maturity and be healthy thank you we talk about parking

[4:51:40] variances being requested right now ... could you details as

[4:51:44] far as please

[4:51:47] a yes of course ... say there is parking variance

[4:51:51] in this is specific to the first phase of development

[4:51:55] ... the

[4:51:58] feathers a shortfall of forty eight residential schools an official

[4:52:02] for the forty Stolz fact mentioned is to set a

[4:52:06] taste awesome title for the first phase

[4:52:10] and that's a combination of ... sorry that's a combination

[4:52:14] of what we taste retail end and ... president trump's

[4:52:20] address correct okay how many stones are currently in the

[4:52:24] Harris green area

[4:52:29] we don't have that information unfortunately you did note in

[4:52:33] the report I believe them that you do you do

[4:52:38] with knowledge that parking is going to be a challenge

[4:52:42] in the in the area once this ... if this

[4:52:44] moves forward as as presented correct

[4:52:48] there is a statement that there is ... potentially anticipated

[4:52:53] ... she will there isn't a show full and leave

[4:52:56] there may be some impacts on the surrounding streets ...

[4:52:59] however ... stuff will save you the application excuse me

[4:53:03] ... in relation to the fact that ... this is

[4:53:05] ... hi screen is a neighborhood is in the open

[4:53:08] coal ... there's extensive bike parking being provided there is

[4:53:12] a ... bike too late to a protected bike lane

[4:53:15] that some of the proposed along H. street ... that

[4:53:18] the subject property is located within walking distance to many

[4:53:22] amenities in the downtown core ... so these factors do

[4:53:26] play into consideration of the stuff supports but if the

[4:53:28] variance

[4:53:29] hi this question is Mr source Cameron

[4:53:35] Mr soar ski

[4:53:38] are your samples good afternoon Sir can I ask you

[4:53:41] ... S. we we we can consider land left in

[4:53:47] a application because it's here can we consider ... the

[4:53:51] impact of ... the two tax lift on any application

[4:53:56] that comes before us

[4:54:00] council can consider economic impacts of the

[4:54:07] opposed rezoning ... if the question relates to a potential

[4:54:13] tax revenues that the city would receive that some pretty

[4:54:15] about consideration okay but ... Mrs Ross he can we

[4:54:20] consider that we are probably gonna put five thousand people

[4:54:24] in a in a and block and a half in

[4:54:26] the impact that those five thousand people could have on

[4:54:30] um services and ... ... that the city would have

[4:54:35] to provide to ... to accommodate and manage ... ...

[4:54:40] that that amount of people

[4:54:43] absolutely that say

[4:54:45] very much that at the heart of the considerations I

[4:54:47] think the reason

[4:54:49] but ... the only way I could determine if not

[4:54:53] just give an example ... if I'm going to put

[4:54:57] to a thousand people in an hour and a one

[4:54:59] block radius ... I'm assuming that that is going to

[4:55:03] place ... ... more money ... for us to do

[4:55:09] with the sewage garbage pickup or ... ... policing bylaw

[4:55:16] something all those services that we have within the city

[4:55:20] ... so the only way I could that I can

[4:55:22] consider ... as an individual it it me hypothetically is

[4:55:27] to ... see want to ... ... try to determine

[4:55:33] what the impact would be on our city budget in

[4:55:36] it within any given year and what the potential lift

[4:55:40] to our at revenue would be at two two ...

[4:55:43] ... ... development

[4:55:51] Mr source here Sir was there was there yeah that

[4:55:54] was a kind of a statement question sorry about that

[4:55:56] yeah ... so how how can how can we as

[4:56:00] a council to determine ... the ... the economic impact

[4:56:06] of ... ... development and this is a sizeable development

[4:56:10] if if we don't know ... you know ... how

[4:56:14] much this is gonna putting this development to five thousand

[4:56:18] people in two one half block radius what impact that

[4:56:21] is going to have on our annual budget

[4:56:27] well hi

[4:56:31] there is no question that that any new development has

[4:56:33] impacts on city services and that is definitely a power

[4:56:36] consideration in terms of council's consideration of whether it's appropriate

[4:56:41] to place ... the the density of residential uses or

[4:56:47] or any other uses depending what we're talking about in

[4:56:51] in a particular location ...

[4:56:54] but

[4:56:56] if I may have misunderstood the earlier question but if

[4:56:58] the question is can we consider can council consider ...

[4:57:04] all it revenues that you will receive from from the

[4:57:08] ... development once it's complete it ... then I would

[4:57:12] say that that's not

[4:57:13] it does not sent that is somewhat problematic consideration on

[4:57:17] land use matter

[4:57:19] impacts on the community from ... they hired ... or

[4:57:24] or or influx of new residents is about consideration ...

[4:57:29] I'm not sure

[4:57:33] also how factually disk and be considered in a sense

[4:57:36] of of ... the day ability to to estimate what

[4:57:40] the revenue impacts would better or better results would be

[4:57:44] of this development mmhm thank you it that to

[4:57:49] that that is a help ... so I for the

[4:57:54] public I do just want to make a brief statement

[4:57:56] about this that ... tomorrow morning they'll be a headline

[4:57:59] in the paper that this is that either we approved

[4:58:03] you know a hundred story building ... going forward or

[4:58:06] we didn't and that's gonna that's gonna be the bottom

[4:58:09] line everyone at this table has read ... reams of

[4:58:14] reports and and where where ... relying on the advice

[4:58:19] and expertise of our staff and that's really important and

[4:58:24] it's very difficult to to make these decisions so I

[4:58:27] probably gonna make this statement now I'm about to the

[4:58:31] ... where I'm going I'm not going to support the

[4:58:34] motion to refer I think it's much ... I think

[4:58:38] it's messy ... and ... it doesn't give for the

[4:58:42] direction to the applicant and I think to do fully

[4:58:47] what we want and we are trying to make decisions

[4:58:50] as the mayor has said that it can impact the

[4:58:53] viability of the project ... but I think we should

[4:58:56] be considering the impact of the the density from the

[4:59:00] point of view number of people going in that what

[4:59:04] I supported thirty two ... floor tower

[4:59:08] ... if it was done appropriately and effectively and we

[4:59:13] can mitigate the ... community impacts of it I would

[4:59:18] say yes I'm not convinced of that when I hear

[4:59:22] that we haven't really thought things out to such as

[4:59:25] ... the ... the number of child care spaces than

[4:59:29] being brought in as it only gonna complicate ... that

[4:59:34] situation right now ... hi ... I think it will

[4:59:39] I I think there are many uncertainties with this project

[4:59:43] that I would have preferred the ... applicant to have

[4:59:47] addressed before he came before us because these are many

[4:59:50] of the questions that we getting through email and phone

[4:59:53] calls and ... so for that reason a ... I'm

[4:59:58] not going to support this motion

[5:00:00] but I'm hoping that we'll get to them ... defeated

[5:00:03] so that we can then try to ... meet some

[5:00:07] of the challenges that are omitted from the main motion

[5:00:11] thank you

[5:00:12] okay thank you ... and ms lane has an update

[5:00:14] or new information or different information on the child care

[5:00:17] on ms lane go ahead yes thank you option she

[5:00:20] helps and we did it we did confirm with them

[5:00:22] ... the applicant and the the number for this proposed

[5:00:26] the DP four hundred I try square meters can accommodate

[5:00:29] up to around seventy seventy children however the applicant is

[5:00:32] not willing to commit to this number because I don't

[5:00:34] have an operation in place I'm sorry ... that number

[5:00:38] could range ... yeah between ... they said that the

[5:00:42] floor space could be anywhere from four hundred upwards side

[5:00:47] is it could be were it between thirty to thirty

[5:00:49] to seventy is really the range that we've been given

[5:00:52] yeah and my response and that is ... they're asking

[5:00:56] us to make a significant decision about adding a significant

[5:01:01] number of people into the downtown core and we we

[5:01:04] encouraging families and if we what's the point in bringing

[5:01:07] families into the downtown core and in this project if

[5:01:11] there then can I have a hell of a time

[5:01:13] trying to find childcare spaces that just might take that

[5:01:15] just might take a

[5:01:17] thank you very much ... I have councillor Dubow on

[5:01:19] the motion to refer and then we do have other

[5:01:22] items a counterpart to come to you and ... I

[5:01:24] think at a certain point will I have adequately debated

[5:01:27] this and then we can ... either pass it or

[5:01:30] not and just there are still other items today and

[5:01:32] tonight so councillor Dubow councillor Potts councillor Thornton Joe on

[5:01:35] the motion to refer as it's been amended here sixpence

[5:01:39] ... I'm I'm just wondering I have a general

[5:01:44] questions

[5:01:46] how many errors do the staff no home energy and

[5:01:52] market rate rentals are in construction as of today

[5:01:59] under construction home money do we know the numbers

[5:02:05] I'm sorry we don't have that readily available

[5:02:09] okay ... is it possible to have such information for

[5:02:14] the future

[5:02:17] we can look into it and yes hopefully that doesn't

[5:02:19] exist okay thank you ... what I know that some

[5:02:25] clover has a different chapter the and then the rest

[5:02:29] of the municipalities where

[5:02:33] I wonder what tools or mechanisms do we have to

[5:02:37] into suffice rent control tied to the unit

[5:02:50] I'm I'm sorry what mechanisms are there's not yeah what

[5:02:53] tools and mechanisms do we have or is there any

[5:02:57] any and power is that we house or mechanisms to

[5:03:03] in to see the end Sentifi size rent control tied

[5:03:08] to the unit I know that that is a provincial

[5:03:11] but I'm wondering if we have any mechanism at a

[5:03:14] local level and at sore teeth probably the best bet

[5:03:18] would be in a housing agreement to secure ... a

[5:03:23] certain degree of affordability

[5:03:25] and with that the rent control tied to the unit

[5:03:29] I suppose it could be it's not something I'm just

[5:03:31] looking to ms who says she has further

[5:03:36] information

[5:03:38] we would have to look into that if it's not

[5:03:40] something we have done in the past okay

[5:03:45] and with that take a lot of work to have

[5:03:48] that information

[5:03:52] ms

[5:03:55] through the mayor ... we can certainly look into it

[5:03:57] ... it's not something that we've done in the past

[5:04:00] and ... I do believe there was a debate about

[5:04:03] this and council's once before and I'm not sure if

[5:04:06] ... misters or ski has any additional information on this

[5:04:10] he has his hand up sorry Mr source can Mr

[5:04:12] hand go ahead

[5:04:16] thank you mayor helps I'm not entirely clear on on

[5:04:20] what is meant by rent control but as a general

[5:04:23] proposition ... local governments ... under the local government act

[5:04:27] has the ability to provide in terms of incentive provide

[5:04:33] a higher density ... in return for certain amenities such

[5:04:38] as affordable affordable housing so as was mentioned by ...

[5:04:42] is mired D. housing agreement would usually be the mechanism

[5:04:48] by which ... the commitments would be secured but the

[5:04:51] incentive forty ... developer property owner to enter into a

[5:04:56] housing agreement would be linking it to a bonus ...

[5:05:00] density out so that they are putting more density than

[5:05:03] would otherwise be allowed in return for a housing agreement

[5:05:07] which specifies the level of call for affordability ... forty

[5:05:13] rental units ... which could regulate ... the allow increases

[5:05:19] in rents and that's what I saw it on what

[5:05:22] is in front of us already to have a density

[5:05:25] but less affordability and and I'm I'm careers hi I

[5:05:31] have read and I understood that in terms of

[5:05:37] and the

[5:05:40] the ... the land on the construction and and on

[5:05:46] on the cost for the builder and all that and

[5:05:49] the taxes seems to that's what I understood from the

[5:05:53] developer and justifying why they don't have affordable housing which

[5:05:58] I

[5:06:00] I'm not economists but I would like to deferred that

[5:06:03] at the moment could provide more affordable and I and

[5:06:09] and walk out their numbers because they already asking more

[5:06:15] and from the city then they have to give more

[5:06:20] and my second question ease and I'm curious if this

[5:06:23] is again a general question have we done scanned in

[5:06:28] and and have a house in inventory of home air

[5:06:33] rental house for affordable housing stock do we have any

[5:06:39] event in house inventory

[5:06:44] but we have what we have the housing needs assessment

[5:06:47] after last council meeting I ask ms Hudson to email

[5:06:50] it to all of council and she did yeah yes

[5:06:53] I am aware of the housing needs and and in

[5:06:57] my earlier points I also raises that there I believe

[5:07:02] the lower medium and low income is two thousand something

[5:07:06] at target but my question is more do we know

[5:07:10] ... and home in a rental affordable this talk existing

[5:07:15] as of now in the city of Victoria do we

[5:07:18] have in Renteria I'm not asking didn't need to add

[5:07:21] the need housing targets rather than the existing print top

[5:07:25] photos from the stock I hope my question is sure

[5:07:28] I believe that number is in the housing needs assessment

[5:07:30] as this it shows what we have and then it

[5:07:32] shows what we need I can't tell you the page

[5:07:34] number but ms Meyer maybe you can remind us I'm

[5:07:37] sorry I don't know his number but we are fairly

[5:07:39] certain that does exist in that it's in that document

[5:07:42] on an

[5:07:44] the and let's say that I I don't even remember

[5:07:48] the numbers and do we know and or captured because

[5:07:53] now we have the number of rental affordable to stalk

[5:07:56] in in this city and in the community

[5:07:59] hi we captured and recorded a monitor the Homan a

[5:08:03] numbers of its full time renters has been displaced

[5:08:09] for the last 2 years

[5:08:15] I'm so I'm so you're asking how we've been monitoring

[5:08:17] how many renters have been displaced correct over the last

[5:08:21] few years I'm wondering I think ms win hasn't information

[5:08:27] thank

[5:08:28] thank you helps ... we do have ... I'll staff

[5:08:32] and housing who kind of sin feeding this information through

[5:08:34] us they did say that this information will be coming

[5:08:36] out in the housing annual G. and a few months

[5:08:39] and just as your previous question in relation to the

[5:08:42] ... number of market rental units ... we is is

[5:08:46] difficult to track ... units are under construction ... but

[5:08:51] we do have the data from twenty nineteen ... that

[5:08:54] hundred eighty three purpose built market rental units are built

[5:08:57] in twenty nineteen I didn't think we have a number

[5:09:00] of twenty twenty as yet yeah it would be nice

[5:09:03] to have twenty twenty on or so what is under

[5:09:06] construction in twenty twenty one because that will give us

[5:09:10] a and going back to what mayor helps was saying

[5:09:14] to look at the heart of housing needs and on

[5:09:17] on the numbers compared what is is asking as a

[5:09:22] target in market rate and what is our target low

[5:09:26] and medium II and below market rate and see where

[5:09:31] as we approve more projects where out of folks would

[5:09:35] be and what is the need and do I understand

[5:09:40] correctly that they would be reports telling us as a

[5:09:43] consul how many people has been displaced and and and

[5:09:50] full time renters that has been displaced that that would

[5:09:54] be coming on will have the exact number is that

[5:09:57] what I'm hearing

[5:10:03] the cost of it the response my housing stuff is

[5:10:05] that but the exact number will be how to confirm

[5:10:08] but it will be addressed ... as a topic in

[5:10:11] the in the annual movie okay I think that that

[5:10:15] is good news too it's not good news to hear

[5:10:17] people are displaced but it's nice to have the numbers

[5:10:21] then we could say C. D. if the damage at

[5:10:25] this point so I I I do support this because

[5:10:28] it will go and indeed in the report it says

[5:10:32] that the fifteen and units that would be displaced and

[5:10:39] that would be lost would be will have is that

[5:10:41] right to review first ride review so but it it

[5:10:45] takes five years minimum to construct so by that time

[5:10:49] you might even leave the city rather than even come

[5:10:52] back to a new build in ... and I didn't

[5:10:55] only twenty three affordable units and and I'm Dan despite

[5:11:02] displacing ... and I'm also fifteen units it doesn't add

[5:11:06] up overload this massive change in our community so I

[5:11:10] do support the motion to refer and I hope and

[5:11:15] the private developer take CD's and and I and I

[5:11:19] look at the numbers and and come forward and

[5:11:25] is the and

[5:11:28] come forward with and in terms of the visiting the

[5:11:33] units of the bedrooms the Mexican units but also more

[5:11:39] flexibility enough for a bit and affordability and my last

[5:11:43] question the twenty three affordable units is there a day

[5:11:49] is it lifetime of the building

[5:11:53] this would be secured in perpetuity else that's what I

[5:11:55] thought thank you very much thank you councillor Potts and

[5:11:59] then councillor Thornton Joe on the motion to refer

[5:12:02] I think it's gonna take a lot for the community

[5:12:04] to get behind a development like this but I believe

[5:12:07] there is an opportunity to advance several important schools identified

[5:12:11] by the community ... from downtown green space to affordable

[5:12:14] housing rental and urban density ... as a climate response

[5:12:19] so I I think this development can give us a

[5:12:21] lot and I think you can give more considering the

[5:12:23] OCP amendment and ... so it's for that reason I'm

[5:12:27] not able to support the referral motion but I really

[5:12:30] strongly encourage counsellor first revision that we could ask for

[5:12:34] a minimum of fifteen to print twenty percent of the

[5:12:36] units affordable at a meeting at a medium a median

[5:12:40] income ... split between the two phases for such a

[5:12:43] sizeable development taking into consideration that's just asking for this

[5:12:46] to be affordable to the average resident of Victoria we

[5:12:50] would could consider retaining all of these units as rental

[5:12:53] we can consider increasing ... an increase of two and

[5:12:56] three bedroom units within this and then ... also clarity

[5:12:59] for the plaza design and the clarity in the basement

[5:13:02] of it and really considering how we can deliver that

[5:13:05] green space for downtown and there should be no reason

[5:13:08] of course for before this would come back to council

[5:13:12] meeting for the tenants assistance policy to be fully complete

[5:13:15] I think when we look at all of what we

[5:13:17] could potentially and she but with this can we could

[5:13:19] lean into what more is possible with this ... CPM

[5:13:22] and meant to them I think that's the kind of

[5:13:24] vision and the kind of bold action we should be

[5:13:25] taking around housing because this is this is a substantial

[5:13:28] amount of housing that we do definitely need and I

[5:13:31] think a given ... what's before us here today and

[5:13:34] ... what's possible I would

[5:13:37] for for for us to lean into the potential of

[5:13:39] the OCP amendment and and looking at that affordability that

[5:13:42] green space ... and that and look what we can

[5:13:47] do in it it towards achieving ... climate action okay

[5:13:52] thank you councillor Thornton Joe

[5:13:54] so thank you I just wanna make sure maybe I'm

[5:13:57] cleared so far this referral if this passes that means

[5:14:03] that this will go back to staff to work with

[5:14:05] the applicant and then we'll come back to committee of

[5:14:07] the whole with these ... with comments or changes or

[5:14:12] non changes of for this is that correct and if

[5:14:16] this is defeated them the original motion that the mayor

[5:14:22] ... put on ... ... earlier today ... we'll be

[5:14:27] on the table and the mayor will make some amendments

[5:14:30] as as she mentioned ... would be added because she

[5:14:36] supported many of the members here and if that is

[5:14:40] supported then it will go to public hearing with these

[5:14:45] recommend ... no ... go back to the OCP will

[5:14:49] come back here but does the OCP when it comes

[5:14:52] back here does it do the same thing as referral

[5:14:56] what's the difference between it being referred to these and

[5:15:03] it being approved to go to public hearing with it

[5:15:07] coming back from the old sepia minutes

[5:15:10] what yeah what is to happen I hope I answered

[5:15:13] your question correctly and get me on the right track

[5:15:16] if I don't

[5:15:18] that there's a difference in how we recommend you proceed

[5:15:21] based on the first part of the referral motion that

[5:15:24] if it it will be very difficult for council to

[5:15:27] do the referral on the OCP if you have an

[5:15:29] expectation that the height in the density is lower because

[5:15:32] we don't want to refer something out for the OCP

[5:15:36] which is an accurate so if the intent is to

[5:15:40] move the recommendation the staff recommendation and you add those

[5:15:45] three bullets or however many bullets

[5:15:49] into the mix then ... those things will be worked

[5:15:53] on they talked about with the applicant the overall form

[5:15:56] of the development with the density in the hate would

[5:15:59] be referred out as well as any further information we

[5:16:02] can provide all this information would come back to committee

[5:16:05] of the whole along with the comments from the official

[5:16:09] community plan referral and at that point council could decide

[5:16:12] if it's ready to proceed to first and second reading

[5:16:15] or whether there's further amendments that are needed and just

[5:16:19] sorry go ahead which is but but if you throw

[5:16:22] into the mix to the part about changing the density

[5:16:24] or the height then it would be better to get

[5:16:27] those changes before you referred out for an OCP amendment

[5:16:32] okay okay so my understanding is if

[5:16:36] this does not so this one will be able to

[5:16:40] work on the OCP heightened density

[5:16:43] but if this one is defeated and that's just the

[5:16:46] mayor's with the amendments

[5:16:51] it will not that's correct that's a significant difference you've

[5:16:54] got it head bang on so this referral is to

[5:16:57] reduce the height and density the main motion is to

[5:16:59] keep the height and density plus all these other things

[5:17:01] so if you want the heightened density reduced support the

[5:17:03] referral if you're okay don't and then act if okay

[5:17:07] so then at the moment the motion of the mayor

[5:17:10] without the OCP if it is supported then I will

[5:17:15] go to public hearing and if it's

[5:17:19] when it comes back the OCP but I am just

[5:17:23] okay just I just wanna I wanna make sure is

[5:17:27] that we're very clear that what we're gonna get by

[5:17:29] this motion so to respond I will be supporting this

[5:17:35] because by did for me to decline this may mean

[5:17:40] that it will move at least a bit forward maybe

[5:17:44] not to public hearing better spent Ford without ... addressing

[5:17:50] the OCP concerns of

[5:17:53] about the height and the density which I feel is

[5:17:56] also important along with the other three and I guess

[5:18:01] some of for some of my colleagues who feel that

[5:18:05] the the height to this is not ...

[5:18:08] of concern I do feel that ... what you know

[5:18:12] what I can my council I I had trouble with

[5:18:15] some of the hi so we're being proposed and I

[5:18:19] did support some but some of them ... because ...

[5:18:22] because some of the things that we gained I see

[5:18:25] some gains on this one but this is significantly higher

[5:18:29] and

[5:18:30] as some people have ... roof ... sort of said

[5:18:34] this is something more of a Vancouver or or ...

[5:18:39] Toronto's sort of heights and as someone whose ... born

[5:18:43] and raised in Victoria and ... just I just see

[5:18:47] that it these high start to lose the character of

[5:18:51] what ... ... many of us ... see is important

[5:18:54] for Victoria so I think we can still get some

[5:18:58] of the rental and the affordability but not at the

[5:19:01] cost of the character of our city thank you accounts

[5:19:04] are also on the motion to refer it's just a

[5:19:07] question to staff ... I think it's relevant to the

[5:19:10] motion to refer ...

[5:19:13] if this motion is defeated and we return to consideration

[5:19:17] of the former motion am I correct in believing that

[5:19:20] before a of public hearing would be scheduled all of

[5:19:24] the conditions would have to be met

[5:19:28] yes

[5:19:29] do you have any sense of how long it might

[5:19:31] take given how many there are

[5:19:34] it will take a substantial amount of time it's hard

[5:19:37] to give you an exact estimate because it it goes

[5:19:41] two ways the applicant needs to make revisions and we

[5:19:43] can't control that but even on our end turning around

[5:19:46] all the reviews the legal requirements is going to take

[5:19:49] some months right thank you

[5:19:52] thank you I just like to make one more comment

[5:19:54] on because Victoria Vancouver and Toronto keep being referenced ...

[5:19:59] and I think it's really important just going back to

[5:20:00] my earlier comments ... Colonna ... which is a city

[5:20:04] kind of same same scale issues Victoria has recently approved

[5:20:08] a forty two story building and that's not what we're

[5:20:10] being asked to do and then I got a letter

[5:20:12] in the mail of the good old fashioned mail from

[5:20:14] my high school history teacher from London Ontario and he

[5:20:16] wrote me sending you some memorabilia about Victoria and he

[5:20:19] said you know London is is changing you you'd barely

[5:20:22] recognize that there is a forty storey building and so

[5:20:25] just you know and then those of London is on

[5:20:28] Dhanteras very much like Victoria in terms of size and

[5:20:30] scale and just going back to my earliest comments ...

[5:20:34] if we are going to combat climate change to mitigate

[5:20:37] climate change mid size cities like Victoria across this country

[5:20:42] are going to need to accommodate more height and density

[5:20:44] so people are living near where they work near where

[5:20:47] the kids go to school so and it is is

[5:20:48] that the Vancouver entrada kept getting reference so I just

[5:20:51] wanted to to reference London and Colonna a London Ontario

[5:20:54] Inc loon which are much more like Victoria than other

[5:20:57] those other cities okay yes councillor Isitt

[5:21:02] ... I think there are ways to achieve additional density

[5:21:05] that don't require that very drastic building height ... and

[5:21:10] I think Victoria should pursue the path of ... more

[5:21:13] mid rise ... densification rather than high rise ... I

[5:21:17] think ...

[5:21:19] ... I think the presence of very tall buildings and

[5:21:23] cities could more be an indication of ... the municipal

[5:21:29] councils willingness to approve ... tall buildings and ... than

[5:21:34] any other sort of factors and from time to time

[5:21:37] we have seen very tall buildings in this community but

[5:21:39] they're all also has been a tradition of more of

[5:21:41] a mid price approach there's also been a huge amount

[5:21:44] of construction downtown and yet we've seen the price of

[5:21:47] housing going up rather than down so I think we

[5:21:50] do have to challenge the myth of supply and I

[5:21:53] I it doesn't appear that we're in the process of

[5:21:56] building our way out of the housing crisis I think

[5:21:58] we need other tools and we need binding housing agreements

[5:22:02] to lock affordabilities into new units and we also need

[5:22:06] increased public investment in ... D. commodified housing so ...

[5:22:12] it was suggested by the mayor that if we were

[5:22:14] to ... essentially lost three and a half stories off

[5:22:16] the building that would automatically result in a a wider

[5:22:20] building but that wasn't the nature of my question to

[5:22:22] staff it was if council chose to hold the line

[5:22:25] on the density as envisioned in the OCP in terms

[5:22:29] of holding the density it five point five to one

[5:22:33] ... what would that do to the height ... and

[5:22:37] we heard from staff that would remove the T. three

[5:22:40] and a half for four stories off the building ...

[5:22:42] that wouldn't results in widening the building the assumption was

[5:22:46] that the existing kind of ... for plead with the

[5:22:48] existing ... floor area of the ... the floors in

[5:22:53] the tower ... what would that point five of density

[5:22:57] mean for building height so one way to address the

[5:23:00] very ... substantial overreach into height would be to hold

[5:23:05] the line on the OCP density and at that that

[5:23:09] wouldn't mean more the wider buildings that would have more

[5:23:13] of an impact on the public realm so just to

[5:23:15] go in and correct that in accuracy ... I think

[5:23:20] I don't support opening the floodgates to very tall buildings

[5:23:23] in the community I think there's a way to house

[5:23:25] people through other approaches that have been proven in other

[5:23:28] communities and so I think referral to staff is the

[5:23:31] appropriate way to proceed ... rather than allowing this to

[5:23:35] go to public hearing with nearly ... superficial changes

[5:23:40] okay ... I'm gonna call the question on the motion

[5:23:42] to refer all those in favor

[5:23:45] those opposed myself councillor Loveday councillor Potts councillor Andrew councillor

[5:23:51] alto so the motion to refer fails ... so why

[5:23:55] don't I start since I was proposing ... some amendments

[5:23:58] ... I'd like what councillor Potts said should rather than

[5:24:02] a general comment about affordability ... so let why don't

[5:24:06] well do them one at a time just trees ...

[5:24:09] that at least fifteen percent of the units over both

[5:24:13] phases of the development achieve ... the median income of

[5:24:18] affordability in the city's affordable housing plan

[5:24:22] is there a seconder

[5:24:23] seconded by councillor ... also ... kills about I know

[5:24:27] you said between fifteen to twenty percent but I I

[5:24:29] think we you know we we do need to push

[5:24:32] here a little bit to adhere that ... I think

[5:24:34] fifteen with at least fifteen percent is a good start

[5:24:37] ... and that could be in this phase or or

[5:24:39] next phase so I'll go to councillor alto and I'll

[5:24:41] come to you next councillor alto as a seconder

[5:24:44] I think this is actually a good balance between ...

[5:24:48] aspirational and achievable and I think it's quite reasonable to

[5:24:52] expect that given the other ... any other conditions that

[5:24:55] have been applied to this that this is still something

[5:24:58] that could be achieved and to help the project received

[5:25:00] so I'm happy to support this it may or may

[5:25:02] not be achievable at least let's try and musical catches

[5:25:05] a median not medium income accounts are Potts go ahead

[5:25:10]

[5:25:12] would like to try an amendment to this ... that

[5:25:16] instead of saying over both faces of the devil meant

[5:25:20] to say with at least half in the first phase

[5:25:23] of development yes it could just just before ask for

[5:25:26] a seconder that meant ... half is five hundred to

[5:25:30] the first half is five hundred units in the second

[5:25:32] half is a thousand units sold one ... a third

[5:25:35] a third okay

[5:25:37] the overall this is two hundred and twenty five units

[5:25:40] so that is a reasonable amount it just that there

[5:25:42] would be the fear and uncertainty of not being able

[5:25:45] to deliver the ... ... a number of them okay

[5:25:48] is there a seconder

[5:25:50] second by councillor Loveday okay so that at least fifty

[5:25:52] percent of units with at least one third of the

[5:25:54] first phase okay yet so all debate on with at

[5:25:57] least one third in the first phase any debate on

[5:26:00] that yes councillor alto ... just to clarifications so that

[5:26:03] means

[5:26:06] half of the 15 percent right

[5:26:10] ... through a Sir third of the third of the

[5:26:12] fifteen percent right so so it would be ... okay

[5:26:16] I just wanna make sure that I understand the the

[5:26:18] math behind it so if they were arbitrarily a hundred

[5:26:22] units we were talking about fifteen of them would be

[5:26:24] affordable over all of it and at least five would

[5:26:27] be in the first phase

[5:26:28] that's all the math is right okay thanks ms Wayne

[5:26:31] is staff is that clear to you I

[5:26:33] it has to be clear to staff so let's actually

[5:26:35] let's just let's let's so

[5:26:39] the the to do math quickly so they're five hundred

[5:26:41] this is called five hundred units in phase one if

[5:26:44] at least fifteen percent of those

[5:26:48] through I am Mike quick figures

[5:26:51] of the fifteen percent would represent about two hundred and

[5:26:55] thirty units so two hundred thirty divided by three thirds

[5:26:59] would work out to seventy four percent or something like

[5:27:02] that's what we need we need that okay any further

[5:27:06] discussion on the bolded language yes councillor young

[5:27:10] yeah I don't think is achievable okay thank you very

[5:27:13] much ... on the bolded language any discussion

[5:27:18] all those in favor any opposed councillor young as opposed

[5:27:21] okay so now the amendment is that at least fifteen

[5:27:23] percent of the units with at least one third of

[5:27:25] the first phase of the development achieve the median income

[5:27:28] of affordability in the housing cities at a housing affordability

[5:27:31] strategy sure you should be strategy

[5:27:34] not plan okay ... any further discussion on that amendment

[5:27:38] up it may actually not be achievable but this is

[5:27:42] a significant development and I want to see it move

[5:27:45] forward and they're asking for above the OCP so we

[5:27:47] have to try I feel like this is are trying

[5:27:49] to make sure that we can achieve what needs to

[5:27:52] be achieved for a resident so I councillor Potts and

[5:27:55] then counselor young I just wanna add and your in

[5:27:57] our conversations around inclusionary housing policy we kind of went

[5:28:01] back and forth in a lot of ways to how

[5:28:02] to achieve affordability and I asked a developers directly how

[5:28:07] can we get more affordability and he said we need

[5:28:10] more density and this is what we're doing here so

[5:28:13] I think that I think that we should really lean

[5:28:15] into this and tried

[5:28:17] okay thank you councillor young

[5:28:20] well we have we have a goal of the achieving

[5:28:22] more units

[5:28:24] but I think we have to be clear the affordability

[5:28:29] is an amenity for the region and for the province

[5:28:33] it's not an amenity for the neighbourhood ... the navy

[5:28:37] the neighborhood has identified amenities that they'd like to see

[5:28:41] a public open space green space playgrounds ... by

[5:28:47] ask by by asking the the developers to put his

[5:28:51] money into affordability we are reducing the options for him

[5:28:57] to achieve some of the benefits ... for the neighborhood

[5:29:01] in which this project is to be placed on a

[5:29:05] just a comment I I fundamentally disagree with that ...

[5:29:08] if there are median income units people who work at

[5:29:11] London drugs or market on Yates can live right upstairs

[5:29:14] from where they work and they're part of the neighborhood

[5:29:15] too so it is of absolute benefit there may be

[5:29:18] people living there now in units that they can't afford

[5:29:20] his are paying too much they so at the it

[5:29:23] depends on who you count as a neighborhood I guess

[5:29:26] councillor Dubow

[5:29:29] thanks mayor helps and I do agree your last comments

[5:29:34] and remarks I've question so nothing

[5:29:38] and guarantees that

[5:29:42] the applicant who do this they could say I'm not

[5:29:46] with this and

[5:29:49] then with the application move forward

[5:29:53] this is a condition

[5:29:54] so if this condition can't be met staff will come

[5:29:57] back and tell us that this was not achievable but

[5:29:59] when I read I I don't see condition

[5:30:02] because you're reading a long list of conditions at the

[5:30:04] very top it says go to public hearing subject to

[5:30:07] this whole alphabet of things are extending the alphabet that

[5:30:10] that then that makes sense thank you as long as

[5:30:14] this is a condition on it with a move forward

[5:30:16] on this the applicant and when

[5:30:20] guarantees said the fifteen percent of the units Dan I

[5:30:25] do support the amendment okay thank you I any further

[5:30:28] discussion on the amendment all those in favor any opposed

[5:30:33] councillor young as opposed okay the second one there was

[5:30:36] some very good wording about the mix of two and

[5:30:37] three bedroom units submissive Alka hopefully you kept that ...

[5:30:41] and we could go with that as a second proposed

[5:30:43] amendment

[5:30:45] okay moved by councillor Dubow seconded by councillor Loveday

[5:30:49] okay our discussion

[5:30:53] all those in favor of the amendment any opposed okay

[5:30:57] none opposed that carries and then ... of the the

[5:31:00] wording on it asking the D. R. A. if it

[5:31:03] suits them to have a plaza if they say no

[5:31:06] that doesn't really take us anywhere so I think we've

[5:31:09] had comments at this table for years about the need

[5:31:12] for more green space in in the downtown and an

[5:31:15] error screen so ... I don't know the exact language

[5:31:18] I'll start out enough people have better ideas ... but

[5:31:22] that the public plaza

[5:31:25] be more park like

[5:31:28] or have more green space maybe be beaten mostly green

[5:31:32] space

[5:31:34] and that

[5:31:38] a DP for the plaza

[5:31:41] B. submitted now

[5:31:44] with an expiration date timed with the proposed bills out

[5:31:48] of phase two

[5:31:51] is there a seconder

[5:31:54] seconded yeah thanks councillor this might not be the exact

[5:31:56] language but I'm trying to capture as we've heard more

[5:31:58] about the need for parks downtown ... it might not

[5:32:01] be a big space but it could be a very

[5:32:03] beautiful usable functional green space with places for kids to

[5:32:06] run around and dogs to run around ... I know

[5:32:08] our policy envisions hardscape a councillor Loveday is right sometimes

[5:32:12] you go to cities and your in between towers and

[5:32:14] no one's there because it's not a nice place to

[5:32:16] be ... and then the other the second part is

[5:32:19] really and staff you might need to help us with

[5:32:21] this language but we don't want them to have to

[5:32:23] come back for a D. P. every two years we

[5:32:25] know that this is going to take longer to build

[5:32:27] out ... just because it takes a long time to

[5:32:30] build concrete buildings if nothing else and so the the

[5:32:33] spirit areas ... that staff and the applicant can work

[5:32:36] together on a reasonable time for the DP to expire

[5:32:39] that would kind of coincide with the build out of

[5:32:41] phase two so is that ms ... Meyer is this

[5:32:44] good enough language for DD for this

[5:32:51] yes sorry just needed time to catch my brain up

[5:32:54] yeah absolutely okay I'll I'll just just to motivate I

[5:32:57] think it is important this is the biggest amenity that

[5:33:00] this project is delivering ... and I think this council

[5:33:03] whose approving hopefully you know if we get that far

[5:33:06] ... in this term I don't know how long it's

[5:33:08] gonna take ... it we would be the ones that

[5:33:10] would be responsible for securing this amenity not hoping that

[5:33:13] in sometime in the future that it is is there

[5:33:16] so that's the spirit of this I councillor Loveday as

[5:33:18] a seconder and then I can look for others

[5:33:23] yeah I think this ... wording gets at the heart

[5:33:26] of it ...

[5:33:29] I don't know

[5:33:31] the word mostly in implies more than fifty percent obviously

[5:33:35] which sounds reasonable but I I I think that would

[5:33:38] be in the design so overall I do support this

[5:33:41] I think it gets us closer to where we were

[5:33:44] trying to go with the plaza and ... although the

[5:33:49] D. R. E. isn't mentioned here I do think that

[5:33:53] they should be involved in the conversation

[5:33:57] thank you any other comments on this amendment

[5:34:00] yes councillor Potts I just reboot

[5:34:03] about the possibility of including the language of instead of

[5:34:08] just kind of green space of park space ... if

[5:34:11] that ... usable green space

[5:34:15] part

[5:34:17] just a signal that you know similar

[5:34:21] what really the downtowns as far as parks so park

[5:34:24] like park like park like park like green space also

[5:34:28] cannot okay

[5:34:31] is okay any discussion on the words park like

[5:34:35] all those in favor any opposed okay any further discussion

[5:34:40] on the amendment

[5:34:42] all those in favor of the amendment are there any

[5:34:45] opposed okay any further amendments to this motion councillor Andrew

[5:34:51] ... ... to this motion no ... notice or that

[5:34:56] amendment has carried it to the ... yes could we

[5:34:59] ... ...

[5:35:02] 5 percent accessible

[5:35:08] units

[5:35:10] Ross

[5:35:14] full

[5:35:18] phases of the development phases of the development yeah and

[5:35:21] then and then the the essence of that would be

[5:35:24] it would also be ...

[5:35:27] some of the ... the ... ... lesson market rental

[5:35:31] rates as well do you want that in there as

[5:35:34] well so that have you know five percent of the

[5:35:37] ... ... the ... the ...

[5:35:42] the ... subsidize units all that low price units would

[5:35:46] also be available

[5:35:48] D. so did the ... if we say all phases

[5:35:52] five three six sorry correct yeah five percent accessible units

[5:35:57] across all phases of the development yeah may I may

[5:36:00] I just offer caution them ... at the new buildings

[5:36:04] through C. R. H. C. capital regional housing regional housing

[5:36:07] Corp which are market based affordable units there ... the

[5:36:11] C. M. H. C. as a condition of funding required

[5:36:14] that a certain portion be accessible of the affordable units

[5:36:17] and they're very difficult to rent there is very slow

[5:36:20] uptake so maybe if we can just leave that that

[5:36:23] to the discretion of staff in that rather than mandating

[5:36:25] that okay yeah fine okay so five percent accessible units

[5:36:30] across all phases of the development is there a seconder

[5:36:32] for that

[5:36:34] second by councillor Loveday okay great had to motivate I

[5:36:36] just ... we we have ... ...

[5:36:42] we we do not have a enough excess but units

[5:36:44] right now I find that ... ... maybe it's price

[5:36:48] point that is the issue but ... ... we we

[5:36:52] need to get more accessible units and into the market

[5:36:55] M. and ... if we can do that ... I

[5:36:58] think that's a good thing for the people that to

[5:37:00] have that mobility issues or need accessible units to live

[5:37:05] because it would be nice to have them living in

[5:37:08] ... ... their own suites rather than have to live

[5:37:12] in assisted living

[5:37:14] thank you councillor Loveday

[5:37:16] I think a cancer and your

[5:37:19] hit the nail on the head with the being the

[5:37:22] price point and if I think if it if these

[5:37:25] are

[5:37:27] ... some of the more affordable units within here that

[5:37:32] are at the meeting income then they would probably not

[5:37:34] have any issue renting them up ... if there if

[5:37:38] there are some of the more expensive units the name

[5:37:41] they might ... so I I don't know mayor helps

[5:37:45] what your comment was about discretion of staff and how

[5:37:49] that applies to this but I think the the desire

[5:37:53] here he's he's right ... and so I seconded it

[5:37:57] but all we could hear clarifications well if you had

[5:38:01] some time in my amendment I always have I mean

[5:38:04] unless there's too many what yes go ahead up to

[5:38:07] five percent of that and then that gives it discretion

[5:38:10] the staff is sorted I I wasn't commenting I think

[5:38:14] the five percent is fine ... what I was saying

[5:38:17] is if we mandate that a certain percentage of the

[5:38:20] affordable units also have to be accessible gotcha ... it

[5:38:24] could prove difficult it may not but that's why I'm

[5:38:27] saying let's leave it to staff and the applicant to

[5:38:30] decide which portion of the

[5:38:33] well I guess five percent of the if five percent

[5:38:36] applies and it applies universal we are universally so five

[5:38:39] percent of the affordable units would be accessible include and

[5:38:41] five percent of all units is that is that the

[5:38:44] intention and staff is that clear enough to you or

[5:38:47] do you need different wording for that

[5:38:49] if that's intentional it's

[5:38:51] partial that would be fine okay that that is that's

[5:38:54] good

[5:38:56] great thank you okay everyone good with that amendment and

[5:38:59] its meaning okay all those in favor of the amendment

[5:39:03] any opposed okay none opposed that carries and I have

[5:39:06] one moment please yes go ahead and I'm gonna need

[5:39:09] to staff's assistance on this ... staff looking report you

[5:39:13] indicated that you were looking for ... all the developer

[5:39:18] would not ... at the greed to a certain size

[5:39:22] or couldn't commit to a certain size of ...

[5:39:27] a chunk cast spaces what ideally want put that B.

[5:39:31] please

[5:39:34] the developer had noted ... somewhere around four eighty but

[5:39:38] it may be as low as was for forty so

[5:39:40] perhaps erring on the side of the work that summer

[5:39:44] come when would you like it to be a couple

[5:39:47] for fifty okay let's do that then please second and

[5:39:51] that's a seventy children take care of him four hundred

[5:39:53] ... that ... forty five square meters four hundred fifty

[5:39:57] charge four hundred and fifty square meters

[5:40:00] be designated for childcare second

[5:40:07] at least at least thank you just when the amendment

[5:40:11] that that at least the area thank you okay I

[5:40:14] don't think that I think I've spoken about this before

[5:40:18] thanks I any further discussion on that okay all those

[5:40:21] in favor any opposed none opposed that carries ... anything

[5:40:26] further

[5:40:29] okay I guess I'll just a wrap up this very

[5:40:31] long discussion to ... really thank council for working together

[5:40:36] to making this application a stronger and better ... this

[5:40:40] will be the first time that we test out our

[5:40:42] we are welcome or were we welcome things that are

[5:40:45] a bit above the OCP as long as they deliver

[5:40:48] something to our community and we have admittedly push the

[5:40:51] applicant here with more than what they came to the

[5:40:53] table with ... but when we're building cities it has

[5:40:57] to be done through negotiation and collaboration so we for

[5:41:00] these conditions on the application ... there's a lot of

[5:41:03] work between now and this coming back to the table

[5:41:05] for our future consideration so I wanna thank staff in

[5:41:08] advance for for the work because it's going to be

[5:41:10] a lot ... and ... yeah we'll see what happens

[5:41:13] when we get back yes councillor Loveday

[5:41:16] yeah

[5:41:18] hi I. D. so I I haven't haven't really commented

[5:41:21] on the heights were were density to this to this

[5:41:25] point ...

[5:41:27] I see both both and all sides of the debate

[5:41:32] and the discussion about what is the ... appropriate maximum

[5:41:36] height for buildings within the city ... I

[5:41:40] he you know ... ... sentimental portion of myself I

[5:41:44] think I think this is too high and then another

[5:41:50] part of me ... it knows that we are going

[5:41:53] to need to continue to densify to meet both our

[5:41:55] housing I am climate goals and ... another ... ...

[5:42:02] aspect of me allows me to see that ... the

[5:42:07] difference between ... a well designed ...

[5:42:12] building that's ... thirty two stories is ... the camp

[5:42:17] actually be less imposing than a poorly designed ... twenty

[5:42:21] story building ... if if that building is ... why

[5:42:25] didn't yeah champions ... shattering the street in ways that

[5:42:29] it doesn't need to sell ... that is partly why

[5:42:33] I I have ...

[5:42:35] a lot of hesitation is that we're not getting on

[5:42:39] the tallest buildings here we don't actually have

[5:42:44] detailed designs and building permits in front of us that

[5:42:47] I development permits that allows us to have the sure

[5:42:51] the that this building ... one of which will be

[5:42:55] the tallest building in the city if approved

[5:42:59] is going to be reach excellence and I think when

[5:43:02] we're looking at the tallest building in the city that's

[5:43:04] what we need to be achieving is both ... excellence

[5:43:08] in terms of urban design and architecture as well as

[5:43:12] making sure that it's delivering on the many in multiple

[5:43:15] goals of the OCP so when we're looking at a

[5:43:19] project that is asking for a height and density well

[5:43:23] beyond the OCP I think it's appropriate that we are

[5:43:28] getting that in return ... if you through ... what

[5:43:32] we've been calling amenities but I think that's actually ...

[5:43:35] it's a

[5:43:36] in some ways the wrong word ... I think what

[5:43:39] we're looking for is a is a full project that

[5:43:43] represents our community and what I see in front of

[5:43:46] us now is a lot closer to that than what

[5:43:49] I saw at the beginning of the day ... where

[5:43:52] we have ... some more affordable units built in a

[5:43:55] mix of two and three bedrooms ... more security around

[5:43:58] the plaza accessible units ... and I think that that

[5:44:03] to me

[5:44:05] he's tipping me just in favor of voting in

[5:44:09] voting in favor of this today I had been coming

[5:44:12] in thinking that ... it

[5:44:14] probably required a referral ... but with these amendments I

[5:44:19] I do feel ... that I want to see what

[5:44:22] comes back and I have a bit of a sense

[5:44:25] of safety in that hearing that because of the OCP

[5:44:29] referral this will come back to committee I am not

[5:44:32] in a place where I could send this to public

[5:44:34] hearing today even with these changes ... but overall ...

[5:44:38] I I think that it's a stronger proposal now than

[5:44:41] it was a few hours ago and ... I look

[5:44:45] forward to seeing what comes back to this table fully

[5:44:48] knowing that there are many in our community who think

[5:44:50] who will ... expressed that these buildings are just to

[5:44:53] talk and don't reflect a what they want to see

[5:44:56] in their downtown okay I see councillor Thornton Joe councillor

[5:45:00] Potts and councillor Andrew I also see that it's three

[5:45:02] thirty so we need a motion to extend the meeting

[5:45:04] I'm gonna look to the wisdom of the table for

[5:45:06] what time that should be

[5:45:08] four thirty okay so four thirty moved by councillor Andrew

[5:45:12] is there a seconder seconded by councillor young all those

[5:45:15] in favor any opposed none opposed that carries ... so

[5:45:19] I forget the order that I saw the has I

[5:45:21] think was Thornton Joe young Potts sorts are enjoying your

[5:45:24] fought for the personal privilege yes when do you envision

[5:45:27] having a recess

[5:45:29] I had in the I thought this item was almost

[5:45:31] done but isolated vision to recess right after it yeah

[5:45:34] this looks like it's not only gives your five minute

[5:45:37] recess no problem

[5:45:52] I would like to call the meeting back to order

[5:45:55] ... just reminding us all we still have some open

[5:45:59] business we still have our daytime council meeting and we

[5:46:02] have a meeting this evening solstice will be mindful of

[5:46:05] that as we proceed ... and

[5:46:10] I believe councillor Thornton Joe was next when we sat

[5:46:13] back down was that true I think it was councillor

[5:46:15] Thornton Joe Andrew than Potts if that's the wrong order

[5:46:17] I apologize with those are definitely the three speakers councillor

[5:46:20] Thornton Joe so my understanding is another ma'am and can

[5:46:23] be made is that correct that's correct

[5:46:25] so I will add another amendment

[5:46:30] and I haven't thought of the wording but ... my

[5:46:33] colleague suggested that I at least try something so ...

[5:46:37] that ...

[5:46:41] that reduction

[5:46:45] of height

[5:46:47] be considered for towers C. D. and E.

[5:46:52] okay is there a seconder

[5:46:55] no seconder seconded by councillor young okay

[5:46:58]

[5:47:00] I do think that heightens the concern I'm not as

[5:47:05] concerned as concerned after twenty twenty one ...

[5:47:11] ... buildings at and I believe when we win the

[5:47:14] staff said the to for it to come within the

[5:47:18] density it would be three and a half stories on

[5:47:21] each tower and I'd be fine of some of the

[5:47:25] towers were to reduce but maybe the other towers were

[5:47:30] to produce a little bit more so I think these

[5:47:32] are all considerations with this without this in here I

[5:47:36] believe that with all the members of the made ...

[5:47:40] without any conversation about height and perhaps density of another

[5:47:45] calling for like to do density but would mean that

[5:47:48] the applicant must say I can do five percent assessable

[5:47:51] I could do ... fifteen percent affordability but I am

[5:47:55] now going to have to increase the height to thirty

[5:47:58] five thirty seven stories so I think there needs to

[5:48:01] be some understanding that that's not the direction I'm going

[5:48:05] in it was just for clarity that's not the direction

[5:48:07] that council has given its within the existing proposal that

[5:48:09] these things be considered is unclear about this battle is

[5:48:13] that clear to staff

[5:48:15] do that and that is how I understood it

[5:48:18] that it was within the existing proposal otherwise we're back

[5:48:21] in the loop if you change the height or the

[5:48:24] density you're back in the loop of what are we

[5:48:26] referring out for the OCP consultation and should it come

[5:48:29] back to council before you refer because you're referring a

[5:48:32] specific proposal

[5:48:34] what thanks for that but I know I'll leave this

[5:48:36] just in there just because I

[5:48:39] I feel I need to okay as a seconder counselor

[5:48:41] young any comments

[5:48:43] no

[5:48:46] no okay any discussion councillor Isitt I support this amendment

[5:48:51] ... is exceeded previously during the debate I think ...

[5:48:54] the buildings over reach in terms of height and they're

[5:48:58] substantially inconsistent with the OCP by a factor of fifty

[5:49:02] percent or more which is massive so I think reducing

[5:49:06] the height ... is consistent with the city's policy and

[5:49:11] it's an appropriate step to take

[5:49:14] okay thank you I don't like to I don't I

[5:49:17] hope this isn't I don't imagine this will pass given

[5:49:19] the last debate but I do we just want to

[5:49:21] really emphasize that a reduction in height ... will as

[5:49:25] staff of informed us through the design phase if we

[5:49:28] want to keep it rental and keep the same number

[5:49:30] of units will resent real result in larger podiums and

[5:49:33] shorter ... wider buildings which I don't think is is

[5:49:37] positive so and I don't think staff to either which

[5:49:39] is why we're kind of in the situation we are

[5:49:41] with this design so ... I I think ... I

[5:49:45] thought we did a really good job saying okay this

[5:49:47] is our first test case for above the OCP and

[5:49:49] what can be delivered I'm glad to councillor Thornton Joe

[5:49:51] asked the question of clarity we don't mean that you

[5:49:54] can go up to thirty five or forty stories we

[5:49:56] mean within the existing proposal please deliver these things that

[5:49:58] we've just spent time

[5:50:00] ... putting into our side of the negotiations so I

[5:50:02] don't support this and I hope that we don't support

[5:50:04] it so we can be consistent with what I thought

[5:50:06] we had just achieved any further discussion councillor Loveday

[5:50:12] yeah I think of sharing that the city's within the

[5:50:17] current proposal and there's not an option for it to

[5:50:20] come back higher ... I will be supporting the amendment

[5:50:24] but I do appreciate that it was put on the

[5:50:27] floor is it gave me that clarity ... and if

[5:50:31] if the applicant can't or won't deliver the the subjects

[5:50:39] ... to the proposal that I hope they will ...

[5:50:42] consider reduction I to me the is it's ... is

[5:50:46] to be able to ...

[5:50:49] faced with the community and say that this is what

[5:50:52] we're getting out of this proposal that goes above and

[5:50:55] beyond the OCP ... it really does need to have

[5:50:58] that community benefit and offset the negative impacts so all

[5:51:04] the

[5:51:05] okay thank you I'm gonna call the question on the

[5:51:07] amendment all those in favor of the amendment

[5:51:10] councillor young concert Thornton Joe cancer as it all those

[5:51:14] opposed ... the rest of us are opposed council do

[5:51:17] I guess you didn't raise your hand so you're in

[5:51:19] favor okay so the amendment fails our councillor Thornton Joe

[5:51:23] anything further

[5:51:24] okay

[5:51:27] not on the amendment that says since the site did

[5:51:29] not pass side will not be able to support of

[5:51:32] the main motion thank you councillor Andrew

[5:51:36] yes if you like to make another amendment that term

[5:51:39] I think this is something we should be looking at

[5:51:41] them and having a conversation with them Mike my colleagues

[5:51:45] about noise in the city and as we start to

[5:51:49] to build inspection we buildings large towers I'd like to

[5:51:52] make sure that any that ... ... a noise mitigation

[5:52:01] that be in place for all

[5:52:06] rooftop equipment

[5:52:09] is that getting a bit too technical I I again

[5:52:12] I don't want us to get into the weeds well

[5:52:13] I mean the thing is that ... so all we

[5:52:17] do I guess that the question is do we want

[5:52:20] to ... the building ... highrises we is ... allowed

[5:52:25] to air conditioning or H. fax systems because the more

[5:52:28] we do this in the city the more the noise

[5:52:31] level is going to go on no we we absolutely

[5:52:33] don't but just to staff is this is kind of

[5:52:35] standard do we do need a motion is is this

[5:52:38] something that just happens or just want some clarity from

[5:52:40] staff is we could make motions about all manner of

[5:52:42] things and but ms Meyer is a standard practice that

[5:52:46] there's always mitigation there is there's standard practice at their

[5:52:49] screening of mechanical equipment and that it's not unsightly I'm

[5:52:54] not aware of any recent concerns related to noise related

[5:52:58] to rooftop mechanical

[5:53:02] there is one at the seniors home but I think

[5:53:04] it has to do anyways okay that's fine so it

[5:53:06] can be an amendment and ... is there a seconder

[5:53:10] seconded by councillor Joe

[5:53:13] yeah councillor Joe as a seconder then councillor Dubow on

[5:53:15] the amendment yes I don't seconded term considering that there's

[5:53:20] seems to be ... delays in getting our noise bylaw

[5:53:25] updated so I think this is something that we're and

[5:53:27] we're going to have to add more and more until

[5:53:30] our noise bylaws updated

[5:53:32] councillor Dubow on the amendment

[5:53:36] thanks mayor helps I think and it seems facing out

[5:53:41] of the developments it could mean that nonstop construction noise

[5:53:47] dust destruction for the next five years minimum so with

[5:53:52] this also address all no noise this doesn't address construction

[5:53:56] noise there's nothing I can do about that yeah exactly

[5:54:00] that's what I saw but it's a

[5:54:03] you can of noise that's what I was thinking but

[5:54:06] I the so I would ask the mover if they

[5:54:11] consider all noises or they would on one twelve trace

[5:54:16] the rooftop equipments

[5:54:19] okay Sir I'm just gonna cut and we've got guys

[5:54:21] we we can't start making motions about construction noise could

[5:54:24] this one is very reasonable the construction noises construction noise

[5:54:28] so

[5:54:29] I guess in Kelso W. so I'm councillor Andrew a

[5:54:32] he did ask you a question so and I think

[5:54:35] my my ... my amendment is exactly as as intended

[5:54:40] to be because we cannot will on construction noise otherwise

[5:54:43] we'd never get anything built up but ... definitely let's

[5:54:47] I'd like to leave that as thank you for the

[5:54:49] suggestion thank you councillor Dubow anything further

[5:54:53] nothing further but said and I I just wanted to

[5:54:56] ask

[5:54:58] I was seeking more clarification because the definitely it means

[5:55:03] five years open honest of construction noise

[5:55:06] thank you I appreciate that and I'm living next door

[5:55:08] to nonstop construction noise now with Vic high under construction

[5:55:12] and the delay on that one for another year so

[5:55:13] I get it okay Allen this amendment any discussion all

[5:55:18] those in favor any opposed none opposed that carries ...

[5:55:23] councillor Potts over to you

[5:55:25] I just set up a question to staff on the

[5:55:27] tenant assistance policy it to a figure that by the

[5:55:32] time this referral comes back at the tenant assistance a

[5:55:35] completed tenant assistance policy would come back as well

[5:55:40] yes to the mat ... I believe that that tenant

[5:55:43] assistance plan is ninety nine percent complete to the just

[5:55:46] waiting on a few outstanding pieces so it is likely

[5:55:48] that by the time it comes back that would be

[5:55:50] in place thank you that's all councillor Dubow

[5:55:55] thanks mayor helps and I'm speaking on the main

[5:55:59] motions that's right yeah

[5:56:01] yeah Hey I think this a lot has been said

[5:56:05] ... and just continuing to that he we speaking of

[5:56:09] a classmate and I think also we have to sink

[5:56:14] tearing down buildings it's not also a climate and solution

[5:56:20] and I have a question to staff would

[5:56:23] with our new bylaw in place by the time construction

[5:56:27] begins

[5:56:29] the D. demand of fiction by low that we've passed

[5:56:39] the reusable I'm a building material that only applies to

[5:56:43] single family homes

[5:56:45] thanks for reminding me

[5:56:47] so I I think speaking of a climate justice aspect

[5:56:52] of it tearing down a lot of buildings it's not

[5:56:55] a is the climate and sustainable way and I think

[5:57:00] that is not good for not only for the climate

[5:57:04] but also displacement and gentrification of neighborhoods ... D. I

[5:57:12] think you we are going over the OCP which I

[5:57:16] agree with the council of days Cinemax but did there

[5:57:20] has to be value added to that eve if there

[5:57:23] is a bonus then they must be of value to

[5:57:27] to the city and the value to the community and

[5:57:31] and that's why I was asking the my previous question

[5:57:35] in terms of it ends and into suffice in an

[5:57:40] affordable housing so I look forward to see the fifteen

[5:57:44] percent units and on how the that would come

[5:57:51] but it

[5:57:53] I think hi the ... I'm I'm happy to see

[5:57:57] all these amendment to that has being done in terms

[5:58:02] of is it looks better than from the beginning and

[5:58:07] I know you really appreciate my colleagues ... working through

[5:58:12] this interim is making sure that at least we have

[5:58:18] and more of a sense of five foot ability right

[5:58:22] now ... thing than the beginning and I look forward

[5:58:28] to see more detail the fool of the tenants and

[5:58:33] assistance location at the location plan ... and what that

[5:58:39] include this in details but overall and I'm happy with

[5:58:44] the amendment but I I do not support the project

[5:58:49] going to public hearing until I see everything has been

[5:58:52] done

[5:58:54] thank you very much I'm gonna call the question all

[5:58:57] those in favor of the motion

[5:58:59] those opposed opposed our councillor Thornton Joe ... young eyes

[5:59:04] it and double so that carries okay we have one

[5:59:07] more item of business on committee agenda and that's a

[5:59:11] motion from council is Andrew and Thornton-Joe's will look to

[5:59:13] the mover and seconder and then to others for comment

[5:59:16] or amendment

[5:59:19] thank you very much ... second convolutional so cancer and

[5:59:25] ... is moving councillor Thornton-Joe's seconding yes okay ... I

[5:59:30] just like to ... moved from that as soon as

[5:59:34] possible ...

[5:59:37] we open the following road in Beacon Hill park up

[5:59:40] you to swing bridge way Hey would play from he

[5:59:44] would have been you to bridge way that to to

[5:59:48] work with the disability community to meet equitable access for

[5:59:52] facilities and amenities in Beacon Hill park through in the

[5:59:55] future road closures and three to ensure any future closures

[6:00:00] and here to the British Columbia human rights legislation ...

[6:00:06] I'd like to make just one very quick amendment in

[6:00:10] item two there were icy bridge way can we please

[6:00:13] put that from arbutus

[6:00:16] ... Bridgeway from hot cutis ... two Hey would embarrass

[6:00:23] him saying that as Mr Douglas are in number two

[6:00:25] yeah Bridgeway from arbutus to he would just so it's

[6:00:28] clear that we're not going to open up the bridge

[6:00:31] to traffic and buses just to let me that clear

[6:00:34] that sorry ... in in sorry in one point two

[6:00:41] there we go Bridgeway from

[6:00:44] arbutus

[6:00:47] can you just repeat that councillor ... ... from OP

[6:00:50] utis ... way to hate which way okay

[6:00:56] yeah okay thank you okay do we need to need

[6:00:59] to

[6:01:01] yeah no regrets ... I think this is a very

[6:01:04] important ... ... there has been a lot of discussion

[6:01:08] on this and this is not about cars this is

[6:01:12] about people the people in the cars and giving them

[6:01:15] access to facilities and amenities that are located within the

[6:01:19] park and ... I try to create the ... the

[6:01:24] motion so that really what I could do is that

[6:01:27] staff could look to the future closes income at closures

[6:01:31] or additional vegetation of the the area but just come

[6:01:35] back with some with ... with any ... any adjustments

[6:01:39] that to work with the applicant consultation disability community and

[6:01:46] also do not to restrict took place in the into

[6:01:49] Burton ... on them so it meets the MPC human

[6:01:54] rights legislation ... that's my motivation I think we pretty

[6:01:59] well know what where this comes from where it's going

[6:02:02] thank you accounts are and we've got councillor Thornton Joe

[6:02:05] kills resident myself you know just some quickly that ...

[6:02:09] when Cole would hit

[6:02:11] it was considered

[6:02:14] so appropriate to give some social distancing and to close

[6:02:19] some of these roads and

[6:02:21] we did this in in a timely manner ... because

[6:02:25] it's so cold it was upon us ... but in

[6:02:28] reflection ... there were definitely some positive ...

[6:02:33] ... things that are cheap by the closures but there

[6:02:36] was also some negative ... ... affects of that ...

[6:02:42] made that ... where equity was concerned was was was

[6:02:47] was lost and I and I think that ... we

[6:02:51] could still make these considerations but I think the considerations

[6:02:55] need to be done in a way that is so

[6:02:58] that we work with does that we need to consult

[6:03:02] to make sure that ...

[6:03:06] the sensibility ... issues are addressed and so I think

[6:03:10] this allows us to go back to be called it

[6:03:15] and then have those discussions in a meaningful fashion and

[6:03:20] then of course when we talk about accessibility into means

[6:03:23] different things to different people and you know whether it

[6:03:26] is a senior who who ... just enjoys ... you

[6:03:32] know that the the drive thru and memories of the

[6:03:35] past ... but I think it's really important that we

[6:03:40] do this correctly and ... I have to read consultations

[6:03:43] so I as I was able to support those some

[6:03:46] motion and I look forward to ... what comes ...

[6:03:49] forward from there

[6:03:51] okay thank you very much accounts are as it and

[6:03:53] then myself

[6:03:55] ... thinks ... is it possible to divide the motion

[6:03:59] to one two and three always possible to divide okay

[6:04:03] ... I'm gonna propose an amendment to number two

[6:04:07] and I may need staff's assistance

[6:04:13] ... just because I do I do have a different

[6:04:15] device ... don't have an access to information that we

[6:04:18] had last week ...

[6:04:20]

[6:04:23] what's the language we've been using around minimal impacts on

[6:04:28] the public's use of the park

[6:04:31] does anyone

[6:04:33] essentially what we're trying to balance in terms of balancing

[6:04:36] accessibility ... with ... well then in different have a

[6:04:40] minimal impact of motor vehicles on the park Sir Mr

[6:04:45] source could you remember the language

[6:04:53] I'm sorry their home site I do not so the

[6:04:56] have any kind of language ready for for what councillor

[6:04:58] ... I just looking for but I'm I'm looking it

[6:05:02] up right now okay yes so maybe all ... yes

[6:05:06] essentially

[6:05:10]

[6:05:12] yes sorry for not being efficient colleagues ... I might

[6:05:15] be able to help because I've got a pretty looking

[6:05:17] for is essentially help or give up some placeholder wording

[6:05:20] and hopefully can be refined so I'd like to move

[6:05:22] that number to be amended ... to read so where

[6:05:26] it says to meet equitable access I've like to propose

[6:05:29] some other wording so to work with the disability community

[6:05:33] to appropriately balance

[6:05:37]

[6:05:38] equitable access to facilities and amenities in Beacon Hill park

[6:05:44] through any

[6:05:47] current or future road closures

[6:05:53] and then at the end of that sentence at the

[6:05:55] words with well well the technician to

[6:06:00] appropriately balance with

[6:06:06] reduction

[6:06:09] in the impacts of motor vehicle traffic

[6:06:15] on all park users

[6:06:19] including on people with disabilities

[6:06:23] all second it's

[6:06:25] it should be cleaned up but ... okay ... motivate

[6:06:28] the moat the intention here is I think we do

[6:06:30] have to give clear direction to staff ... that it

[6:06:34] is a priority for council to ensure that people with

[6:06:37] disabilities have access to our parks including facilities and amenities

[6:06:42] within the parks ... and also I think to signal

[6:06:45] that it's a priority of council to reduce the impact

[6:06:49] of motor vehicles on all park users including on people

[6:06:53] with disabilities we need to recognize that those two objectives

[6:06:57] aren't identical and that there is a requirement for some

[6:07:00] balancing that we may need to enlist some external expertise

[6:07:05] to determine how these objectives can be balanced effectively ...

[6:07:10] but I think it is important for council to give

[6:07:12] that direction ... and I think if staff team that

[6:07:15] they need some additional resources whether potentially beginning the work

[6:07:19] with funding from this year's contingency fund and potentially resuming

[6:07:23] it we're continuing it in the twenty twenty two financial

[6:07:27] year ... I think we should move forward with this

[6:07:30] work without delay so that's my rationale for including the

[6:07:34] language around current closures as well as future ... and

[6:07:38] so I guess we'll hopefully a majority will support these

[6:07:42] amendments

[6:07:43] thanks ... my ... my I second it will speak

[6:07:46] next on the list other speakers I I was going

[6:07:49] to propose something similar but to be a bit more

[6:07:51] direct about it switches to work with the disability community

[6:07:55] to properly balance the needs but ... Mr Slee ECRI

[6:08:00] there he's not there okay I couldn't see behind councillor

[6:08:03] Andrew ...

[6:08:06] I was just gonna make it very specific ... was

[6:08:09] on the proposed roads above or something so I guess

[6:08:14] my question is what what would staff to do with

[6:08:17] this direction because the direction one is immediately open all

[6:08:21] road so then I I I support I support the

[6:08:24] spirit of this I just wanna make sure I just

[6:08:25] wanna know what would happen like what would staff's point

[6:08:28] of order to explain my previous speech to show up

[6:08:31] my intention is not to support one just to disclose

[6:08:34] that I intend to I would vote in favor an

[6:08:37] amended number two and three and I would be voting

[6:08:40] against one as I have previously

[6:08:44] and to proceed okay that's helpful so then I'm going

[6:08:46] to make an in at number two ... an amendment

[6:08:49] to amend number two ...

[6:08:53] which is to work with the disability community to meet

[6:08:58] ... so at that they appropriately balance equitable access that's

[6:09:01] fine to facilities and amenities in Beacon Hill park through

[6:09:05] the closure

[6:09:10] or Paul park or partial closure

[6:09:13] all of the above roads

[6:09:17] is there a seconder

[6:09:23] K. there's no seconder okay

[6:09:28] if I motivated before amending then you might so basically

[6:09:31] would take it number one says immediately open thank you

[6:09:34] councillor alto thank you number one says immediately opened all

[6:09:38] the roads ... I I I don't support immediately open

[6:09:44] all the roads I do support looking at those three

[6:09:48] roads identified three passengers identified by councillor Andrew ... through

[6:09:53] the lands that has been put forward ... by councillor

[6:09:58] resident councillor Andrew so it it's it's that balancing act

[6:10:02] ... what I didn't like about the original motion future

[6:10:05] road closures is just like it might happen sometime in

[6:10:07] the future ... so I guess the number two is

[6:10:12] loose enough that if we do need to open the

[6:10:13] roads right now to meet human rights ... issues and

[6:10:16] that's fine ... but I want the consideration to be

[6:10:19] specifically with respect to these these three areas because those

[6:10:22] are the ones of the public have come to appreciate

[6:10:25] so it might be clunky and we might be stacked

[6:10:27] up here but I I actually would support number one

[6:10:30] as long as it's not off in the future that

[6:10:32] we might consider them but we consider them kind of

[6:10:34] immediately so that's the rationale for the amendment to the

[6:10:37] amendment councillor alto as a generous second or do you

[6:10:40] have anything to add and then I'll look at other

[6:10:42] speakers ... yeah I did second so we discuss and

[6:10:45] I'm not I'm not sure if I support this I'm

[6:10:49] just thinking it through because a

[6:10:51] I'm not sure I understand how if too was adopted

[6:10:55] that it wouldn't preclude adopting one because it seems to

[6:10:59] me that two is based on the

[6:11:02] either closing or at least partially closing the roads where

[6:11:05] is the first section is about closing the roads so

[6:11:10] hello I'm a little unsure as to how the two

[6:11:13] could work compatibility but I'm I'm happy to seconded it

[6:11:17] for conversation okay thanks yet it might be a bit

[6:11:19] clunky I've got councillor Potts counselor young councillor Andrew and

[6:11:22] then I'll come back myself to try and explain what

[6:11:24] I'm trying to achieve which I think is a balance

[6:11:26] between what everyone else is also trying to do so

[6:11:28] councillor Potts go ahead and make a discussion me better

[6:11:31] for ... if Mr silly returns to the conversation but

[6:11:35] we ... previously I discussed some work that staff was

[6:11:40] doing in terms of ... I'm looking at the road

[6:11:43] to become a park and I wanted to understand that

[6:11:44] a bit more because I I from what I understood

[6:11:46] there was some work under way driven by start stuff

[6:11:49] does anyone object moving this to is Mr Slee gone

[6:11:52] for the day we just move this next Thursday when

[6:11:53] he's here

[6:11:56] you object okay then no problem Mr Mr Belafonte

[6:12:01] ... thank you madam I did talk to about this

[6:12:04] with the direct the city a peaceful they select I

[6:12:07] hope you know can off some comments on his behalf

[6:12:10] ... and I think before right I specifically respond to

[6:12:13] your comment councillor ... ... I think west staff were

[6:12:19] at the moment laws that ... regardless of whether the

[6:12:24] ... pop wonder if the motion is adopted or not

[6:12:28] ... stuff would be bringing forward ... as part of

[6:12:32] the twenty twenty two financial plan ... proposals to and

[6:12:36] to take a more comprehensive and fulsome review of all

[6:12:38] the pathways and the drive files within the park so

[6:12:43] that's where we were before ... these are ... amendments

[6:12:46] work with being contemplated

[6:12:49] a to your point ... I mean that and I

[6:12:52] make that point because I think ... given some of

[6:12:56] the background stuff's sort of current view is that more

[6:13:00] comprehensive ... entire look at all the all the connections

[6:13:05] would be preferable rather than an incremental approach never the

[6:13:10] less ... you are correct councillor that stuff before today

[6:13:13] had been looking at some some options ... in preparation

[6:13:18] potentially for an alternative ... way forward our preference would

[6:13:22] be that it would be thoughtful some comprehensive look

[6:13:26] ... thanks for that clarity I think that yeah all

[6:13:29] of this work whether it ... it

[6:13:33] past to this motion today are looking at the staff

[6:13:35] work will require staffing resourcing and budget budgeting and I

[6:13:38] think that ... just given that the work is under

[6:13:41] way I I think it would be preferable to rather

[6:13:44] than continually I make small amendment ... bring motions and

[6:13:48] amendments by count out council the council table like this

[6:13:50] to have a fulsome review and I think I read

[6:13:54] a favor following this the staff direction and to to

[6:13:58] really look at this appropriately and make sure that ...

[6:14:02] ... that we are at intending to all the accessible

[6:14:06] needs and and pick up mentioning as an appropriate balance

[6:14:09] of an equitable access I think ... we can tweak

[6:14:12] all we want but I think we really need that

[6:14:14] the good work to be done and then of course

[6:14:16] this work will require budgeting so might as well just

[6:14:18] stay the course

[6:14:20] thank you are councillor young councillor Andrew counselor Loveday and

[6:14:23] then myself I think I understand my amendment now

[6:14:27] I agree with counselor Potts so we should ... look

[6:14:31] at a full set of options I agree with counselor

[6:14:35] also that the ... amendment to the amendment ... referring

[6:14:41] to the above roads ... doesn't make sense if we

[6:14:45] don't adopt one number one and now I am in

[6:14:48] the same camp as councillor eyes that I plan to

[6:14:51] vote against option one hi I think ... news

[6:14:57] and I think we need a full ... study I've

[6:15:01] said before I I agree that probably there should be

[6:15:05] some more openings I think there should be better access

[6:15:09] to our ... our washrooms today I don't agree that

[6:15:16] whatever existed in the past is the best situation and

[6:15:21] that the principle that the human rights commission will adopt

[6:15:26] is once you open a road to traffic it's always

[6:15:30] gonna stay open to me ... that's that's not a

[6:15:35] principle is and somebody said there are a number of

[6:15:38] groups of the mobility impaired ... some of those people

[6:15:44] are not in the situation of either having access to

[6:15:49] a private automobile that they are able to drive even

[6:15:53] though they are able to to walk or use a

[6:15:56] wheelchair for a long distance or ... in in in

[6:16:01] ... the camp of having somebody

[6:16:04] who is able to drive them through the park and

[6:16:08] that's the camp that seems to we seem to have

[6:16:11] heard most from but it's not the only a group

[6:16:14] of those with mobility impairments I think a fresh look

[6:16:19] at this whole thing as our staff has suggested they're

[6:16:23] doing

[6:16:24] is the right way to go I think we probably

[6:16:27] will end up with ... some kind of ... compromise

[6:16:33] ... I can't foresee exactly what it will be ...

[6:16:37] but I I think that we should stick with the

[6:16:40] with the plan we have now and I think I've

[6:16:43] commented on the sub of the amendment the supplement on

[6:16:48] the main motion side I don't have to say yeah

[6:16:52] thank you for officially your efficiency we do have an

[6:16:55] in camera item where we have an external person here

[6:16:57] that we need to get to kind of soon ishe

[6:16:59] ... and we've got a wrap up by five so

[6:17:02] everyone can use their time as wisely as we can

[6:17:04] with that knowledge councillor Andrew and then councillor Loveday

[6:17:09] I think any councillor it's gonna vote against item one

[6:17:13] they just wanna point out I mean we you

[6:17:18] Cuman writes on not something that you would give to

[6:17:21] somebody in time they are ... the you can't say

[6:17:25] well we'll do it next week because that's more convenient

[6:17:28] ... and I think by this motion nine two that

[6:17:32] really what we're doing is we're creating a second class

[6:17:35] person and if you read the code ... it says

[6:17:39] section eight a person must not without a bona fide

[6:17:42] and reasonable justification of which we know we don't have

[6:17:47] is to deny personal class of persons any accommodations service

[6:17:52] or facility customarily available to the public or to discriminate

[6:17:57] against person or class of persons regarding any accommodation service

[6:18:02] facility or customer and then ... it's customary they will

[6:18:06] to the public so I'm totally fine I will not

[6:18:10] be supporting this amendment I'm totally fine with ... looking

[6:18:15] at ways to meet the requirements as we've said to

[6:18:19] pedestrian Eisen and ... deal with that situation within the

[6:18:23] park this is not about as I said it's not

[6:18:26] about vehicles it's about people so until we can come

[6:18:30] up with the situation that results that that meets the

[6:18:35] rationalization in deals with that the climate change concerns that

[6:18:38] people have and the accessibility in the park we must

[6:18:42] immediately open those roads to meet our obligations as a

[6:18:48] city to human rights legislation and it's that simple and

[6:18:53] to I find it stunning that there are some people

[6:18:57] at this council table that can't see that and the

[6:19:00] people that represent ... house sitting on a disability ...

[6:19:06] ... ... committee so I won't be supporting this and

[6:19:11] ... there is no excuse those roads need to be

[6:19:14] opened up today and ... or as soon as we

[6:19:17] can

[6:19:17] and and and that's it we can't say we're going

[6:19:20] to put this down the road and in two thousand

[6:19:23] and twenty two we will give you what you deserve

[6:19:27] ... disable community I think that's just appalling

[6:19:31] okay can councillor Loveday and then myself and then councillor

[6:19:34] rises

[6:19:36] actually if you go I I just don't understand sure

[6:19:39] yeah sure so basically ... I was planning to support

[6:19:42] number one ... and but I don't want the original

[6:19:47] wording of number two was at some future date will

[6:19:49] consider maybe closing roads I want to open the roads

[6:19:52] and then to work with the disability community to appropriately

[6:19:55] balance the actual access facilities amenities in Beacon Hill park

[6:19:59] for the closure or partial closure of the above roads

[6:20:02] so open them and then let's have those consultations to

[6:20:05] figure out how do we close them in a way

[6:20:07] that's going to ... reduce reduce the impacts of motor

[6:20:10] vehicle traffic including on people with disabilities so mine is

[6:20:14] a it's a different take on councillor eyes it's because

[6:20:17] his says ... the the the rosary open so basically

[6:20:21] if it is a bit confusing because it's like a

[6:20:23] choose your own adventure if you're gonna vote against one

[6:20:25] what amendment do you support on number two so I

[6:20:28] am going to support my amendment it does assume that

[6:20:30] one is going to pass ... and and that's how

[6:20:33] that shakes down so if you that's yeah that's the

[6:20:36] best I can I can say

[6:20:38] I just don't want that the original wording of the

[6:20:40] motion was too loose at some point in the future

[6:20:43] we might close roads I actually think we do need

[6:20:44] to close the roads that we need to do it

[6:20:46] in a way that's consul consulted with the disability community

[6:20:49] and that takes into consideration all the other language and

[6:20:52] bold so I don't know if that helps or not

[6:20:55] okay I any other speakers on the amendment to the

[6:20:58] amendment yes councillor Isitt

[6:21:02] I don't support the amendment

[6:21:05] I think councillor Andrew described I think a certain type

[6:21:10] of accessibility which is individuals traveling in cars many people

[6:21:15] with mobility impairments and other disabilities I can't drive sometimes

[6:21:22] for socioeconomic reasons they don't own a vehicle and their

[6:21:26] family members don't own vehicles there's a whole other way

[6:21:30] to think about accessibility which is and that's when this

[6:21:33] was debated a month ago on ... arbutus way before

[6:21:38] ... the closures there was no accessible rooms to go

[6:21:41] north so through the park and it's hard when we

[6:21:44] don't have a map ... but this motion if number

[6:21:47] one is approved it will have a very negative impact

[6:21:51] on accessibility instantly there will be no accessible room for

[6:21:56] an individual in a wheelchair or mobility scooter or some

[6:22:00] other mobility aids who needs a hard surface like pavement

[6:22:04] they will not be able to enter into the park

[6:22:07] ... by any means other than a motorized means having

[6:22:12] to essentially be in a motor vehicle unless they want

[6:22:15] to put themselves at risk by having to share a

[6:22:17] few this road with motor vehicles and many people don't

[6:22:21] feel safe sharing roads in that way you have someone

[6:22:24] in a vulnerable person in a wheelchair up against ...

[6:22:27] someone wrapped in two thousand pounds of steel and plastic

[6:22:31] and all the other hazards that we know are common

[6:22:33] on public roads that's why we that proceed with things

[6:22:36] like separated sidewalks unlike a lot of the district of

[6:22:40] Senate it's why we have protected bike lanes so that

[6:22:44] people traveling in wheelchairs on foot on bicycles are on

[6:22:49] a different are separated from motor vehicles our staff have

[6:22:53] provided that separation on arbutus way it came at the

[6:22:57] expense of motor vehicles being able to drive into the

[6:22:59] park but it meant that there was an accessible pedestrian

[6:23:03] including the wheelchair a

[6:23:05] routes north so through the park so I don't support

[6:23:09] removing that accessibility and that would be the immediate effect

[6:23:12] if number one is supported so I really hope that

[6:23:17] council will not immediately throw open the roads and will

[6:23:21] instead give direction to our staff to mobilize the resources

[6:23:26] they need in the expertise they need to determine how

[6:23:30] we can appropriately balance equitable access to facilities with the

[6:23:36] the goal the very supportable goal of reducing the impacts

[6:23:40] of motor vehicle traffic on all park park users okay

[6:23:44] councillor Thornton Joe

[6:23:47] well the fact that we close them but I think

[6:23:50] mostly due to cold that I think

[6:23:53] we need to re open them ... and then take

[6:23:57] the appropriate time to do the work ... with the

[6:24:00] disability community and and props I I'm you know I

[6:24:03] I think there's some other amendments of number two requires

[6:24:07] ... because it could mean that while working with a

[6:24:11] disability ... community

[6:24:15] we should be trying to find a way to fix

[6:24:18] it ... when we don't have the expertise in and

[6:24:23] ... abilities or disabilities or or challenges that an individual

[6:24:29] might have and so I think by by referring it

[6:24:33] to groups that do they may say it is challenging

[6:24:37] for those who don't want the traffic so this is

[6:24:41] what we recommend ... here and because is for these

[6:24:45] reasons and so I think this number to needs to

[6:24:48] be worded in a way that ... sentence is balancing

[6:24:54] whatnot embossed appropriately ...

[6:24:58] vice equitable not up ... to me balancing because I

[6:25:02] think that word comes in this contest give me some

[6:25:07] concerns I think could be the closure

[6:25:10] the non closures or partial Clarissa I think we need

[6:25:14] to it's like what we said about staff staff to

[6:25:17] tell us what you want and let us go and

[6:25:19] do it and what we want is

[6:25:21] ... equitable access so I think we should be just

[6:25:24] saying that let it go to the staff and the

[6:25:28] and the ... disability community and let them come back

[6:25:31] and so the buzz word smithing trying to create a

[6:25:34] what we think is the right solution thank you I

[6:25:37] think the challenges that some people think that partial or

[6:25:40] full road closures are good and some people don't think

[6:25:42] they are so we're divided on that ... what I'd

[6:25:45] what I request is if we could just at least

[6:25:47] vote to clean up number two so we're not stacked

[6:25:49] up with amendments to amendments so if you're in support

[6:25:52] of everything with the three stars basically the language that

[6:25:55] I proposed ... please raise your hand now so all

[6:25:58] those in favor of that amendment

[6:26:00] okay those opposed so opposed are councillor young councillor Thornton

[6:26:04] Joe councillor eyes it to councillor Andrew so that carries

[6:26:09] with five in favor as I I should just call

[6:26:11] the oppose councillor Dubow didn't raise his hand so he's

[6:26:13] in favor of the amendment to the amendment carries some

[6:26:16] as of all can you just clean it up for

[6:26:18] us

[6:26:20] and now we have to vote on that amendment

[6:26:23] once it's cleaned up

[6:26:27] and again just remind us council that we do have

[6:26:30] an external person that's here to give us some in

[6:26:32] camera time so we wanna make sure we honor that

[6:26:35] and that person is only available to five as are

[6:26:37] we because of getting ready for tonight's meeting

[6:26:40] okay so miserable because I good that cleaned up so

[6:26:43] the now the amendment is to add the bold and

[6:26:46] strikes the strike through okay any further discussion on not

[6:26:52] yeah councillor alto sorry but I find any earlier rational

[6:26:56] you had referenced not wanting the reference to future that's

[6:27:00] true and it should be my in the any current

[6:27:03] or future road closures goals that went that went so

[6:27:08] that's right that that language of instructors thank skills that's

[6:27:11] right so the closure partial closure of the above roads

[6:27:14] with a reduction that's right thank you so that's the

[6:27:16] amendment that's now on the table

[6:27:21] run take a minute to read it

[6:27:28] yeah councillor alto

[6:27:30] just a question clarification too I understand too now

[6:27:35] but I'm just wondering

[6:27:37] if you could comment mayor helps this is was your

[6:27:40] amendment how do you see the relationship between number one

[6:27:43] and number two are not mutually exclusive

[6:27:47] there is there not if number one because their original

[6:27:51] the original number two was at some future point we

[6:27:54] consider closing the roads all I'm trying to do is

[6:27:56] say not at some future point kind of now so

[6:27:58] if we open the road stand staff need to go

[6:28:01] and do the work to figure out okay how do

[6:28:03] we make it more equitable ... for closure or partial

[6:28:06] closure not in the future at some point but now

[6:28:09] like the problem is that we've closed the roads because

[6:28:12] of Colwood we haven't closed the roads ... in a

[6:28:15] in a way that ... balances everyone's needs we did

[6:28:17] it as a knee jerk and we need to be

[6:28:19] more thought front lots I think what what is the

[6:28:21] point of the original motions so person could vote in

[6:28:24] favor of number one and in favor of number two

[6:28:27] yes that that that's correct so number one if it's

[6:28:30] adopted means rose would open but if number two is

[6:28:34] adopted they would open subject to this work

[6:28:39] correct thank you you're welcome okay yeah councillor Dubow and

[6:28:42] then councillor Thornton Joe yes thanks for helps I have

[6:28:46] a question for clarification when it sees to walk with

[6:28:50] the disability community

[6:28:53] could you tell me more what would that mean disability

[6:28:57] organization would mean accessibility committee at city hall councillor Andrew

[6:29:01] can you please answer that was your wording yes ...

[6:29:04] I would assume we would talk to the accessibility working

[6:29:07] group we would also talk with members of the same

[6:29:10] committing such as a disability resource center and someone just

[6:29:14] to insure we would campus them and ensure that we

[6:29:18] were doing in the right way

[6:29:21] I'm would it be helpful to to make the language

[6:29:25] more specific no absolutely not ... so then would

[6:29:32] a question to the staff at what direction does this

[6:29:37] motion give it to you in terms all

[6:29:39] and who you walk with because for me when I

[6:29:42] agreed disabilities communities to browse doesn't give me more specific

[6:29:47] use of the eve willing gate with organizations Mr Belle

[6:29:51] Fontaine I see the tension is that but the the

[6:29:55] language that's captured before I go to Mr Bellefontaine I'll

[6:29:58] just remind council that we do have an accessibility framework

[6:30:01] that was developed through extensive engagement over two year period

[6:30:04] with the disability community so ... but Mr Bellefontaine how

[6:30:08] do you interpret that general seeming language yes thank you

[6:30:11] I think as councillor Andrew indicated ... ... given some

[6:30:16] of the discussions we've had today in the spirit of

[6:30:18] this motion we would ... we would bring a broad

[6:30:22] spectrum of expertise to the table so it would be

[6:30:25] the accessibility committee we would look at the heat a

[6:30:29] number of accessibility groups who we have had ... great

[6:30:34] relationships with it in the past on specific projects such

[6:30:38] as the framework acceptable parking and so on and and

[6:30:42] also I suspect ... individuals with lived experience so so

[6:30:46] we would make sure it was a representative ... ...

[6:30:50] group ... contributing to this discussion

[6:30:53] there are hidden that answer and it satisfies me on

[6:30:58] I'm happy to hear the staff has already leased of

[6:31:02] who they engage so with this information is also good

[6:31:06] for the public you might be wondering and the same

[6:31:09] way so now that that I hear that answer on

[6:31:13] this on the record and I'm very satisfied okay thank

[6:31:17] you very much councillor Thornton Joe councillor Andrew counselor young

[6:31:20] on the amendment I'd like to make another amended Tim

[6:31:25] can we just can we just do can we clean

[6:31:27] it up first and then so we're not stacked up

[6:31:29] helps I was a voice is against referring it to

[6:31:33] next week I'd be very happy if you want to

[6:31:36] table a central ... tonight tonight is a council meeting

[6:31:40] ...

[6:31:42] just out yes I management service that's a good idea

[6:31:44] why don't we just refer this matter to tonight's council

[6:31:47] meeting second okay seconded by councillor Thornton Joe ... all

[6:31:50] those in favor any opposed okay and Mr Kingsley that's

[6:31:54] fine to do that okay perfect okay so this goes

[6:31:58] to tonight's council meeting will continue of the discussion then

[6:32:02] ... so that means that we need a motion to

[6:32:04] adjourn committee of the whole thank you councillor alto seconded

[6:32:06] by councillor Andrew accounts or enter thank you for that

[6:32:09] suggestion all those in favor of adjourning any opposed okay

Committee of the Whole

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