[0:03] Good evening everyone. Welcome to our city council meeting for Wednesday, october the 8th. Miss hillbrook, Will you please call roll?

[0:09] yes, sir. Councilman delagarza, I am present. Councilman kidder here. Councilwoman butler, mayor pro tem young Here.

[0:18] and mayor crocker, I am here out of order. If you would please rise.

[0:22] join me for the pledges followed by a moment Of silence.

[0:27] I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united States of america.

[0:31] and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under god, Indivisible, with liberty and justice for

[0:38] all. Honor the texas flag. I pledge allegiance to thee.

[0:43] texas. One state under god, One and indivisible.

[1:05] thank you. Please be seated. Again, welcome, everyone, To our meeting this evening. Rescheduled so

[1:12] that everyone could enjoy national night out Celebration yesterday.

[1:16] so we will jump right into our agenda. We have quite a few things on the agenda.

[1:21] so we'll start with item b one. Announcements and reminders. Mr. Garza. Good evening.

[1:26] good evening, mayor and council. I have quite A quite a few announcements for you this evening as well. We want to start off by Reminding the public that all non-emergency

[1:33] city offices will be closed on monday, October 13th in observance of indigenous peoples day. Offices will reopen at 8 a.m.

[1:39] on tuesday, october 14th. The victoria public library will close at 5 P.m.

[1:44] that day. Trash yard waste and recycling Scheduled for monday will be collected as usual on behalf of the communications Department.

[1:51] the latest episode of town talk, Featuring our fire marshal annette ponce, discussing fire marshal's office outreach Programs, including the fire prevention show

[1:58] that's ongoing this week, Today and tomorrow. Plus, learn about fire safety and common fire Hazards,

[2:02] including some that are probably in your home Right now. There's an exclamation point right now.

[2:08] find this in previous episodes of town talk On youtube and spotify. The city of victoria communication public Affairs is also currently accepting

[2:15] applications for its 2026 citizens academy, A free six week education program that will

[2:20] provide residents with an inside look at Local government and show them how to get involved. Sessions will return back to being In the evening for a few years there.

[2:29] we converted the program to be during the Day, but beginning in 2026, It will revert back to being on thursday

[2:35] evenings and it will be from 6 to 9 p.m. On thursdays from january 29th through march 5th.

[2:40] residents are encouraged to apply as soon as Possible at victoria, tx.gov/citizens

[2:44] academy. The application deadline is october 31st. On behalf of the parks department, In partnership with the texas wildlife

[2:51] association and the texas youth hunting Program, we will once again host the victoria youth Hunt on october 17th through 19th.

[2:57] for the second year in a row, The hunt will be hosted by the victoria county navigation district at the port of Victoria.

[3:03] the program is designed to expose novice and Underserved kids, ages 12 through 17, to the outdoors and the Sport of hunting.

[3:09] for more information or to register for the Victoria hunt, visit typekit.

[3:15] in addition, our parks and recreation Department, in collaboration with townsquare media, Have geared up for a free community halloween

[3:21] party that will take place at the victoria Community center on wednesday, october 22nd from 5 to 9 p.m. The event will feature trunk Or treat booths and townsquare media dj's

[3:30] partying in the dome, Plus not so scary crafts for the younger set and a spooky haunted house for ages 12 and Above in the annex.

[3:37] lastly, on behalf of the parks and recreation Department, registration for our christmas parade as well as for our parade entrance and Food merchandise vendors for the lighted

[3:46] christmas parade is open through october 31st, or until all entry slots in each category Have been filled.

[3:51] residents can sign up by visiting victoria, Toward ct.gov registration,

[3:56] or by contacting the parks and recreation Department at 361485 3200 or parks at

[4:01] victoria, tx.gov. The parade will be held in Downtown victoria on saturday, december 6th, which of course follows the Tree lighting ceremony,

[4:08] which is always the evening prior, Which will take place on friday, december 5th. Those are all the announcements I have for this evening.

[4:16] all right. Very good. We will then move to B2,

[4:20] which is public and employee recognitions. And our first item is our keep victoria Beautiful beautification award for october.

[4:30] miss uecker. Good evening. Good evening, mayor and council.

[4:35] we have a big winner today. I think you'll be very happy to know.

[4:39] this is our october winner, And I'm going to have meredith bird, our our chair of keep victoria beautiful Announce our winner.

[4:49] good evening, miss bird. Good evening, Mayor and council.

[4:54] so tonight we are recognizing victoria Builders supply on john stockbauer as our

[5:00] october beautification winner. This property always looks nice and really Immaculately,

[5:08] immaculately kept. They've recently installed Some new landscaping at the road,

[5:15] and it's really looking great. Some nice new Small trees and small shrubs and stuff,

[5:19] and it's really sprucing up the place. And so tonight we'd like to welcome brian Guajardo up here to accept this

[5:28] beautification award for victoria victoria Builders supply. Congratulations. Thank you.

[5:39] on behalf of myself and the owner, Dan graffito. We're just honored to be a part of keeping Victoria beautiful.

[5:46] this is a great place. Dans from ohio and Been here over 30 years and doesn't want to

[5:51] leave. But it's a great place to raise Families and do that.

[5:56] and we're just doing our part and helping the Community with doors,

[6:00] garage doors, anything you need. But we're happy and we're honored for this Award, so we appreciate it.

[6:06] thank you. Congratulations. Well thank you. Mr. Garza, Do you have any other public and employee

[6:14] recognitions? I do have several this evening. Mayor. Okay. I first want to start off by Acknowledging all the employees and everybody

[6:22] who played a role in a successful texas fest. This was the second year under the brand of Texas fest,

[6:28] which, of course began during our Bicentennial year. And I would say, without even having to look At the figures,

[6:35] that it was a successful weekend. And so kudos to joel and the entire planning Committee for a successful weekend.

[6:42] as usual, we'll be gathering all the data on Attendance and the financials and provide a

[6:47] more thorough overview of the event here in The next meeting or so.

[6:52] but I still wanted to take a minute to just Acknowledge joel and everybody that played a factor in a successful tech house.

[6:57] so if we can give them a round of applause, That'd be awesome. In addition,

[7:05] recently discovered victoria attended the Recently discovered victoria attended

[7:10] destinations texas annual conference in fort Worth just last month and received the second

[7:16] place award for website design and Effectiveness in the 500,000 to 1 million budget category. And so congratulations again To joel and his team and everybody who played

[7:24] a role in that. Is he here? They're all recovering somewhere. He probably Is.

[7:29] he probably is. But congratulations to them On that as well.

[7:35] he actually did text me a few minutes ago Saying he had to be unloading a u-haul of

[7:39] things from the festival, But in any case, I want to transition to some personnel items. Of course, Recently there's been some some bittersweet

[7:48] news coming out of our police department. Bitter because we are, Of course, losing our chief young.

[7:55] he will be moving on, And I want to take a minute to just share some thoughts and some appreciation for chief Young.

[8:01] many of you know that he moved here in august Of 21 to become deputy chief under then

[8:06] robert arredondo. And really played a huge Role in enhancing and modernizing the way

[8:12] that we, as he calls it, Fight crime. Right? Crime fighting. At the end of the day, That's the core mission of any police

[8:19] officer. And chuck, at his core is a crime Fighter.

[8:23] and so a lot of the, a lot of his experience Over several decades, he brought to our department and really Helped move the needle as it relates to

[8:32] improving crime. And what I have found to be Extremely amazing in terms of what he and the

[8:39] entire police department have been able to do Under his leadership, not only as deputy chief, but then, of course, As chief, as chief,

[8:45] of which he became chief in may of 23, Was their ability to lower our crime rate,

[8:50] while at the same time dealing with historic Levels of being short staffed.

[8:55] and so the combination of being, The combination of being able to do that doesn't happen by magic. It happens by very Intentional effort,

[9:01] very strategic crime fighting tactics, Maximizing the utilization of technology,

[9:05] something that chief young has been high on, Things like the license readers that we now

[9:10] have, several that we now have throughout our Community, and other things. His vision for real time Crime center that was contemplated in the

[9:18] design of the public safety headquarter Building to leverage technology and resources to assist our police officers in real time.

[9:24] that's the legacy that that he that he'll Leave behind as we say goodbye to chief

[9:29] young. And so if you could please help me, Chief young, if you wouldn't mind rising, Because we'd like to acknowledge you and

[9:35] thank you for your service with us, Chief.

[9:51] thank you, chief. His last day as our chief Will be this friday the 10th.

[9:56] and so with that, of course, Comes some change in leadership. And so recently, we also announced the Interim appointment of deputy chief fedders.

[10:04] and I do want to read you a few things about About clay.

[10:09] but if you aren't aware since joining bpd in 2008,

[10:13] clay has served in key roles including Captain of investigations, swat commander, lieutenant of patrol and Support services,

[10:20] and of course, most recently as deputy chief Of operations. And each position he has strengthened officer Development, accountability and operational

[10:26] readiness. Clay also brings extensive Leadership experience from his 30 year military career, recently retiring as a major In the texas army national guard.

[10:34] his service includes leading units supporting Over 20,000 soldiers, managing significant resources, And coordinating lifesaving disaster response

[10:41] operations during hurricane harvey and Tropical storm imelda. A dedicated mentor and educator, Clay has trained countless officers through

[10:48] the victoria college police academy and Developed leadership programs to help shape the next generation of law enforcement Leaders.

[10:54] as interim chief, clay, Together with the entire command staff, which of course includes deputy chief moya as Well,

[11:00] will provide steady leadership and guidance As we prepare for an exciting milestone that begins the next couple of months, Which is, of course, moving into our new

[11:06] public safety headquarters, Which is a huge step forward for our department and our community. And that is the Focus of the department.

[11:13] that is the focus of management over the next Few months to focus on that big move.

[11:17] and I have all the trust and confidence in Clay and the entire command staff that we'll be able to do that successfully. And so Congratulations,

[11:23] chief fedders. Lastly, An announcement that

[11:33] unintentionally slipped through the cracks. And so, kate, I apologize, but recently we went through a reorg in our Parks and recreation department.

[11:41] which led to the creation, Or I should say, the reclassification of a position to create a second assistant Director.

[11:47] this was a move that comes on the heels of The venue tax passing and is coming as we

[11:54] prepare for this major investment in the Expansion and renovation and expansion of our

[11:58] community center. This move creating the Second assistant director position. Parks and recreation centralizes all of our Special event centric operations related to

[12:07] our venues, venues that we've invested and Will invest significant amount of money on, such as the downtown square and the community Center.

[12:14] and so all of that will now be under kate Garcia as our new assistant director.

[12:19] I'm, I'm very excited that she's that she's Reached this point in her career because as

[12:26] some of you know, she actually worked in the City manager's office for a couple of years. But before then worked for seven years in our Environmental services department as a

[12:35] programs coordinator. And so she has Extensive experience with the city of victoria. And so it's always awesome to see Folks start off their career with us and

[12:43] progress in their in their careers. And kate's just another example of that.

[12:47] and she began a few weeks ago as this Assistant director for parks and recreation. We do plan a press release that will go out Next week.

[12:54] but, kate, congratulations. I know you're here, so congratulations on Your promotion.

[13:05] and that is all I have for the for this Evening. All right. Thank you, Mr. Garza, I appreciate it. We will move then to Items from council.

[13:13] miss butler, I believe you had one this Evening. I do ironically, I'm going to piggyback off of your parks and Rec.

[13:20] is her mic on? Probably not.

[13:25] how about now? Okay, I'm going to piggyback Off of your parks and rec with a feel good

[13:30] moment. On your screen, You'll see. Marathon. Marathon was is rescued by colton Harp,

[13:40] who is part of our parks and rec department And now has an ongoing fan club.

[13:47] of all the animal lovers in victoria, There were two women who were running at

[13:52] riverside park. They do that every morning. Found an injured dog and colton stepped in.

[13:57] if you'll notice that that beautiful Marketing that marathon has going there,

[14:04] we have a new member of the parks and rec Department. We've already got a shirt for him.

[14:08] anyway, I wanted to acknowledge colton hart Because he went out of his way to assist with

[14:13] these two ladies and make sure that the dog Was safely cared for until animal services

[14:17] could arrive. Great. Great job. Colton. Thank you. Any other items from Council?

[14:27] no. Okay, then we will jump into citizens Communication.

[14:31] we have quite a few green cards this evening, so I will remind everyone to please limit Your comments to three minutes in length and

[14:40] we will start with trevor montgomery.

[14:58] welcome, mr. Montgomery. Thank you, mayor and council. I'd like to first off mention that with the Fire association,

[15:06] I am the vice president. I am a resident in Town. I live at 206 vista cove. I have a few of us with us.

[15:11] sorry, a few of us here together tonight. So I think there's three other comment cards Related to this.

[15:16] if you want to just have us go right after There. Might make more sense that way. First

[15:20] off, the main reason I want to comment here Tonight is to say thank you to council and to

[15:25] mayor crocker here for taking the situation With our employees seriously,

[15:29] not just the fire or police or first Responders, but in general for the city.

[15:35] this is the most in regards to fire. This is the most aggressive change in our pay Scale,

[15:41] I believe, since 2008. So that has a lot of weight behind it. It is very much appreciated among the fire Personnel.

[15:48] and I'd also like to thank you, Mayor crocker, for having the foresight to keep that pay committee as a continuing Process that we look at every year.

[15:55] I think that's a great example of leadership. And thank you all for having us tonight.

[16:00] thank you very much. Next card I have is from James collins.

[16:16] welcome, mr. Collins. How are you? Good, Sir. How are you doing? Doing well. Thank you. All right. I'm here tonight.

[16:23] I'm the president of our police association.

[16:27] and thank you, mayor and council, For allowing us the opportunity to speak.

[16:31] and I just wanted to echo the sentiments of The city manager. In thanking chief young for his service to The men and women of the victoria police

[16:40] department, the city of victoria and the State of texas.

[16:45] I was one of the first members of the Department to meet chief young back in 2021,

[16:50] when then chief police roberto arredondo Invited chief young to join him here in

[16:56] victoria. Chief young was interviewing before A panel for the position of deputy chief.

[17:01] so during this interview, Chief young was humble, very brief when describing his experience and Accomplishments while a member of the dallas

[17:09] police department. After the interview, Chief arredondo actually had to fill in some

[17:15] blanks for me because chief young kind of Sold himself short a little bit on on some of

[17:21] the things that he accomplished in dallas. And so I think that's a trend that continues To this day.

[17:26] if you ask chief young who he is or what he's Done,

[17:31] he's likely to undersell himself. And so he's unlikely to brag on himself, But he's very willing to tell you stories

[17:41] from his experience. Experience that is over 40 years in law enforcement now at this

[17:48] point. And so when chief arredondo left in 2023,

[17:53] chief young, who'd been here for less than Two years at that point stepped up and filled

[17:59] that gap that was created by his leaving. He'd not initially come to be chief, But he was thrust into that position by the

[18:07] officers at the department and by a community That he had really just joined,

[18:13] but had had come to, to to trust him in just A short amount of time.

[18:18] and so he saw a job that needed doing, And he stepped up to do it.

[18:22] and so here, almost two and a half years Later, chief young has decided to leave our Department, but his impact will be felt for

[18:28] years to come. I think all the officers that Work for him appreciate the dedication he has

[18:33] for the profession and his willingness to get Involved as chief.

[18:37] young worked alongside us. It became obvious just how in love with law Enforcement he is.

[18:42] his joy for the profession of policing is Alive and well, and he can. And as he continues his career, Wherever he goes,

[18:49] whatever department or office snags him, They'll be getting someone who is driven to

[18:54] solve crimes and catch bad guys. On behalf of the men and women of the Victoria police department, thank you, chief

[19:00] young for your dedication to us, And we look forward to seeing you and working

[19:04] with you around victoria. The community you've come to call home. Thank you. Well said. Thank you, Mr.

[19:14] collins. The next card I have is from wilma Edwards.

[19:25] good evening, miss edwards. Good evening. My name is wilma edwards, And I came tonight with the group that was

[19:34] supposed to be with me. I think we all got The days mixed up,

[19:39] so I'm going to have to represent those. And the ones that was going to come was Coming from silver city, not from queen city.

[19:46] they was coming as a group to let you know For themselves what was going on firsthand.

[19:53] so since they're not here, I'm just going to ask you to continue doing

[19:57] what you can do now. I was told there's more Drug over there than homeless.

[20:04] I don't know too much about that. But whatever you can do to make that place Better and take care of the citizens because

[20:12] they're scattering them all over, Because we end up with some in silver city.

[20:17] I don't know where the rest of them went, But please just do something,

[20:23] because I know we've been coming up here and Talking about we going to do this and we going to do that. But nobody is showing no Example of what you can do and will do.

[20:34] the last time I came, I gave you three, three places that you can

[20:38] fix for those homeless. And if they drug dealers, I don't know that I told you on the corner,

[20:49] a 104 south navarro. There's a vacant lot There that you can build or fix.

[20:56] and then we had one on dick's food store.

[21:01] everybody know dick's on crestwood. They closed that building down.

[21:06] that's a vacant building. I know there's money floating around Somewhere,

[21:11] but if you can fix that up temporarily until You can get one,

[21:15] that's right for everybody. Now I'm, I keep being called and and asking To do this and do this,

[21:25] but I'm getting to the point where we need Help.

[21:32] we need help. We spend money on things that I Think could be later done.

[21:42] I it hurts my heart to know that we have city Council, we have policemen, we have city manager, We have all these peoples and we can't seem

[21:52] to get queen city fixed.

[21:56] right? I'm not talking about the park. I'm talking about queen city itself.

[22:02] and in queen city we have the place where They eat.

[22:07] now that has changed. It made it bad because The people can't go inside and eat.

[22:11] they can't go inside and bring the food out. So it's getting worse.

[22:17] mayor, I'm going to call your name because I Know you care and I know somebody else cares.

[22:26] but if you can get a committee, I'll work with you. I think last time I was here, I told you, you can put me on the on your

[22:33] server, you know, put me on. Give me some money. I have nothing else to Say today.

[22:38] but y'all pray for me because I'm out here Not just working for one person. Everybody thinks miss wilma can do this, And miss women can do that.

[22:45] but let me tell you, I'm 85 years old. But I'm still going. God won't let me sit Down.

[22:50] so y'all continue to do something if you Can't do nothing. But I don't know, what's the first thing you Would do?

[22:56] mayor clean it up, I guess. Let them know that you care.

[23:02] please do that for me. And I think next tuesday, Maybe this group of people will be here.

[23:07] thank you so much for listening. Thank you, miss edwards. All right.

[23:12] the next card I have is I want to make sure I Get this I, colin batchelor, is that correct?

[23:30] I know you mentioned wanting to go back to Back, but you may want to say the names. So the mayor calls those cards back to back, As you prefer.

[23:38] this is colin batchelor. He is a state field rep for the texas state Association of firefighters.

[23:43] okay. He has nothing to say at this moment. I just want to call attention that we did Bring him in. Just to have a,

[23:49] you know, an expert on our side as well. So if needed, if requested by council, He is ready for comment.

[23:55] and the rest of our names are alan the flame And jose pena. Okay. Thank you. Why don't those two Gentlemen then come on up and we'll just go

[24:03] ahead and take care of take care of those. Yeah. And if you

[24:15] would state your name just to make sure we Get it for the record. Yes, sir. Okay,

[24:19] good, good evening, mayor and council.

[24:24] I would just like to extend my gratitude for The hard work that you guys put in,

[24:28] along with the city management on that Compensation plan.

[24:33] you know, it seems to have helped out a lot. And we do appreciate it very much.

[24:40] for now, that's all I have to say. Thank you very much. Along with victoria fire Department,

[24:47] 25 years. Just wanted to come personally and Tell y'all thank you for the pay plan.

[24:54] very grateful. Appreciate it. Thank you. Appreciate you guys being here.

[25:00] all right. I have michael vondra.

[25:10] welcome, mr. Vondra. Thanks. Good evening. Council. Mayor, I'm michael vondra.

[25:15] I live at 2107 north benn jordan. Then I would like to see the trailer park Cleaned up at victoria oaks trailer park.

[25:25] they have a banana tree and it goes into the Sidewalk, but it also goes into the road.

[25:31] and one car had to swerve to miss the banana Leaf and almost hit another person.

[25:36] and dana fowler, the vice president of Operations,

[25:40] has no interest in cleaning it up, Nor does the personal injury lawyer that's in

[25:47] charge of it, nor the manager at the trailer Park.

[25:51] and something needs to be done about it. There's mailboxes that's fall fell off, And they just put it at a 45 degree angle and

[26:01] refused to mount it. They're missing lids and Letters, and, you know, they're not keeping it up.

[26:07] the plumbing hasn't been finished. They got like big pvc pipes stuck out about 5 To 6 foot out.

[26:15] and it's not taking taken care of. And the city of victoria has made progress.

[26:22] they got five, ten, 16, 29 and 32 demolished. So that's been a help.

[26:28] but the only reason it was done because code Enforcement found it and put it through the

[26:34] chain of command. And I would like to thank Chief arredondo and deputy chief when he was

[26:42] deputy chief coming to the trailer park to Look at all those potholes at the trailer

[26:48] park owner refused to fix. And it's concreted now, And looks a lot better.

[26:55] and congratulate him for the october the 10th Retirement and stuff.

[26:59] and the car wash. I do appreciate the Sheriff's deputies and the police officers

[27:06] working together to put criminal trespass Warnings on people so people could use the

[27:12] car wash, and so the maintenance man could Fix it. And the reason they don't let people take Food out at christ's kitchen because the

[27:20] people they litter and they feed there the Food to dogs and stuff,

[27:26] and they trash it all out. And that's the reason they have a policy Where you can't take food out because people

[27:33] get tired of cleaning out, Up, out, you know, after the homeless people, You know, because these are volunteer people

[27:42] that don't get paid. But I would like to see The personal injury lawyer held accountable.

[27:48] and dana fowler, the vice president of Operations and all the management held

[27:54] responsible and clean up that trailer park And fix it. Right? You know, they've done a very poor Job.

[28:00] thanks. And have a good day. Appreciate it. Thank you, mr. Vondra.

[28:04] and then a final card I have is from harley Fisk.

[28:17] welcome, mr. Fisk. Thank you, Mayor and city council members.

[28:23] first, as a member of the friends of the Victoria public library,

[28:28] I want to thank all those people who were Involved in having our successful 50th

[28:33] anniversary party. And would particularly Like to thank jessica and her staff and,

[28:41] of course, keisha, who did much of the Planning and all those who attended.

[28:48] some of you could have spent a little more Money, but all right.

[28:53] secondly, as a member of the board of the Theater victoria,

[28:58] I want to let everyone know or remind people That the spongebob squarepants the musical

[29:06] starts on thursday. Right. Kids and the adults involved have put a great Deal of effort into making that a successful

[29:17] event, and I encourage people to attend. Thank you. Thank you, Mr.

[29:21] fisk. All right. So that will close out Citizens communication.

[29:26] we are going to jump around in our agenda a Little bit to accommodate.

[29:30] we have an out of town guest this evening. And just in the interest of getting him back On the road at a reasonable time,

[29:37] we're going to jump down to our work session, which is item g one. Good evening, Mayor and council.

[29:49] I would like to take a moment to introduce You to our civil service and collective

[29:53] bargaining subject matter expert this Evening, mr. Frank garza. Frank has an extensive Public and employment law experience in

[30:01] representing municipalities and governmental Entities in legal matters involving their businesses and operations.

[30:07] he currently serves as city attorney for Multiple cities and provides legal guidance

[30:11] to the cities of alamo heights, Leon valley, edc richmond, san antonio and windcrest prior To prior to joining the firm of davidson

[30:20] trujillo. Did I say that right? Troilo. Close enough. Rehmand garza, In 2002,

[30:28] he served as the city attorney for the city Of san antonio for seven years. And before that, he served as an assistant City attorney for the city of dallas.

[30:36] he was on the board of directors for the Texas city attorneys association, serving as president of the board in 2013.

[30:43] he is president elect of the board of Directors of the university hospital foundation, and on the board of the consejo Education foundation,

[30:51] and I believe he was at one point a professor At saint mary's university.

[30:56] so, frank. I will give you the mic.

[31:01] thank you. Welcome, mr. Garza. That was quite an introduction. Well, And just to defy the rumors.

[31:09] I am not related to your city manager. Fair enough, fair enough. So collective Bargaining in chapter 143 is my understanding

[31:19] that you have an election in november on both Items? Both exist, can exist concurrently and Separately.

[31:26] and let me go ahead and start with the Presentation. The following. If you look, go to the next slide right There.

[31:33] okay. So here are examples of cities that Have both state civil service chapter 143 and

[31:40] collective bargaining. As you can see, They range in size from some of the largest cities to some of your mid-size to smaller Cities.

[31:48] and all of these cities except new braunfels Have both.

[31:52] chapter 143 and collective bargaining. The city of new braunfels has chapter 143 and Meet and confer,

[32:01] which is not quite as collective bargaining. But still they are able to negotiate some Terms and conditions to their employment.

[32:12] state civil service. We'll start off with Chapter 143. It's only applicable to the following types Of cities.

[32:19] you have to have a population of greater than 10,000. You must have a paid police or fire Department.

[32:25] and you must receive a petition from 10% of Your voters in the last city election

[32:30] requesting civil service for police and or Fire.

[32:34] it is my understanding that the only thing on Your ballot this year is for the fire department. And then citizens approve the Adoption of civil service rules through the

[32:43] through an election. Chapter 143 primary goal Is to standardize.

[32:49] standardize police and fire department Employment practices and ensure decisions are

[32:55] based on merit. That's under the purpose Identified in chapter 143.

[33:02] it requires the city to follow consistent set Of rules for the hiring,

[33:08] promoting pay and disciplinary matters of its Fire department.

[33:12] and in your case, when state law chapter 143 Is amended,

[33:18] your civil service rules may also be amended.

[33:22] and there's always confusion that if you Adopt 143, you also grant collective bargaining rights.

[33:28] that is not true. As you know, You have to have an election for both items

[33:33] simply because you are. Chapter 143 city does not give you collective Bargaining rights.

[33:43] as you know, the city of victoria is set to Vote on civil service for firefighters in november of 2025. No city that has ever Adopted chapter 143 has ever repealed it.

[33:56] now, if there was a vote for requirements for Repeal, first of all, it has to have been in place For one year.

[34:03] and the same thing. It requires a petition From 10% of voters who voted in the last city

[34:08] election. A city council could not adopt an Ordinance to put it on the ballot.

[34:12] it requires a petition of citizens to put it On the ballot.

[34:18] and then again, it's held on the first Available uniform date. And there are there is specific language, Just like when you adopt.

[34:25] it requires specific language just to repeal It. The ballot requires very specific language That,

[34:31] in my opinion, is a little confusing, But it does require it for for repealing of

[34:37] the chapter. In 2023, The legislature passed hb 2713,

[34:44] which requires 10% again for the petition to Repeal. And it now prevents cities of a population of 50,000 or more from ever repealing it.

[34:56] the legislation was a direct response to Repeal efforts in austin and san marcos

[35:02] cities with a population of less than 50,000 Can still repeal chapter 143,

[35:09] but it does require the petition and Election. Cities of over 50,000 can no longer repeal Chapter 143.

[35:17] can I ask a question about in instances where You had some cities up there where 143

[35:25] applied in those cities, Do they typically apply to both fire

[35:29] department and police department? Depends on the ballot. Okay. For example when the city of new Braunfels first adopted,

[35:37] they had their first chapter, 143 election, it was simply for the fire department. And that was in 2006.

[35:44] five years later, in 2011, The police department also placed on the

[35:48] ballot to also be able to have civil service. So if it would have required a separate Ballot to include the police.

[35:57] item. Okay. Okay. And then under this, If it's put in.

[36:01] so 50,000. So victoria's obviously over 50,000. If it's put in there's no way to.

[36:06] it doesn't go away unless the texas Legislature legislature amends this

[36:11] provision. Okay. It would be it would no Longer be able to repeal it. Got it. Okay. Thank you.

[36:18] chapter 143 is one of the most litigated Areas facing cities.

[36:23] and why? Because it deals with hiring Decisions. It deals with promotion decisions.

[36:27] it deals with discipline, Leave and pay. So it is one of the most litigated areas that A municipality does face.

[36:38] police officer and firefighter associations Have been successful in lobbying. Changes to chapter 143 at the legislature.

[36:44] an example that I gave you is the recent Legislation on the repeal language.

[36:48] if adopted, the city must establish a civil Service civil service system for its

[36:54] firefighters. The. This basically will shift The authority over personnel personal matters

[37:00] for fire from city management to a newly Created civil service commission.

[37:07] so if it's adopted in november, You will have 30 days after the within 30

[37:14] days after the first fiscal year to be fully Implemented,

[37:18] which basically means november 1st of 2026. If it is adopted in this november, The law says it must be fully implemented

[37:28] within 30 days after the first fiscal year Begins. So since you're already started this fiscal Year,

[37:34] it would be the next fiscal year. You have to you have to fully implement it Within the next fiscal,

[37:39] within 30 days of the next fiscal year, Which basically is november 1st of 2026.

[37:45] however, the city must appoint a civil Service commission within 60 days of

[37:51] canvasing your election. Three members under state law.

[37:56] only three members serve on your civil Service commission,

[38:00] and they serve staggered three year terms. The initial appointments will be for one year Term,

[38:06] a two year term, and a three year term. Very important members are appointed by your City manager and confirmed by the city

[38:16] council. That is specifically outlined in the State law.

[38:24] state law requires that the commissioner must Be a member of good moral character,

[38:28] must be a us citizen, A resident of the city for more than three

[38:33] years, over 25 years of age, And not have held any public office within

[38:39] the last three years. There was actually an Ag opinion where an individual was nominated

[38:44] to be served as a fire and police civil Service commission member,

[38:48] but because he had served as a civil service Commission member in the civilian ranks for a

[38:53] very large city that was deemed a public Office and could not serve within those last

[38:58] three years. So almost any. Elected and appointed position that that Person served under would be.

[39:04] he would be ineligible, Or she would be ineligible for up to at least three years. So it has to have been a person Who's not served in any appointed or official

[39:11] position for a public position for almost Three years. And would that include, Like commissions within the city,

[39:18] like our parks and rec commission, For example, or a lot of things? A lot would depend on how much authority your Commissions would have.

[39:25] I can probably tell you, If they were a planning and zoning commissioner, where they might have some Final authority. Probably not a board of

[39:32] adjustment. That clearly is a public Official. So if they have final authority on any Matters,

[39:38] that's probably deemed a public office. If they're purely advisory and have no final Authority,

[39:43] all they do is make recommendations, Then it's possible they could serve okay.

[39:48] and that's appointed or elected either one. That is correct okay. All right.

[39:52] thank you. Commissioners may serve up to Three consecutive terms.

[39:57] again, partial term appointments do not count Toward the term limitation.

[40:02] commission may only be removed by council for Misconduct in office.

[40:07] and let me point that out. Misconduct in Office.

[40:12] if a person is a commissioner and gets pulled Over for dwi while off duty or going home

[40:17] after a party or whatever, That is not misconduct in office.

[40:23] it's very strict. And the reason they make it Very strict, if they if the commissioners make a decision That's unpopular with the council,

[40:31] they don't want the council to be able to Remove them.

[40:35] okay. It has to be misconduct in office in Order for them to be removed.

[40:41] and the misconduct must be a public finding Made at a council meeting.

[40:45] and the commissioner may request a hearing at An open meeting to have a public hearing on

[40:51] any potential removal.

[40:56] some of the duties of the commission once They're appointed. The first one of the first is to elect a Chair and vice chair.

[41:03] they must adopt the rules necessary to carry Out the intent of the law.

[41:07] this will take time, because you are going to Be adopting rules and guidelines on the

[41:16] hiring of your firefighters, On the promotions and the requirements to be

[41:20] promoted by your for your firefighters. The discipline, pay and classification of Your firefighters.

[41:29] these are very detailed rules that will take The commission a lengthy amount of time to

[41:37] develop. And remember, They have to be fully ready to go and implemented by november 1st of 2026.

[41:44] if the citizens approve chapter 143.

[41:49] some of the examples, Again, they'll deal with rules that detail calls for removal or suspension.

[41:55] set physical and mental requirements for Applicants into the fire department.

[41:59] they will call for exams for applicants and Other ranks when there is an opening,

[42:03] and they approve hiring and promotional lists Within a set period of time.

[42:09] chapter 143 is very detailed with certain Aspects,

[42:14] but does give flexibility to the commission To set up rules where the chapter 143 is

[42:20] lacks, is lapsing in some details, And it allows the local rules to fill in

[42:25] those gaps. So in the cities that you Mentioned,

[42:30] do you see discrepancies among rules for city Versus city b?

[42:35] yes, sir. In fact, one of the best examples I Can give you is city of san antonio used to

[42:42] have one of the strictest rules for police And fire for hiring applicants.

[42:47] for example, any drug use under the age of 22, they were automatically disbanded forever.

[42:53] they could never reapply if they were found To have ever used drug use under the at any time under the age of when they basically at Any age upon their application.

[43:08] because as times got harder and marijuana use Is now legal in certain areas and so forth,

[43:16] they've had to relax some of those rules. For example, if any drugs used below the age Of 17,

[43:22] they're still now flexibility to still be Hired. Their old rules, they were banned even if They use drug use under the age of 17.

[43:30] so they've relaxed some of those rules Depending on the difficulty in getting

[43:36] applicants and so forth. There are still some cities that have very Strict rules for the hiring and having set

[43:43] standards, but they do. They do vary from city to city.

[43:48] and are those rules 100% within the purview Of this commission?

[43:52] yes, sir. I mean, so if council disagrees With them or city management disagrees with

[43:58] them, whatever the commission adopted is what It is. That is what it is. Okay. And how much of those rules are statutory Actually required by 143?

[44:06] well, 143 requires you to have rules for Applicants. And there are some rules outlined in chapter 143.

[44:12] like for firefighters, You have to be between the ages of 18 and 36

[44:18] is the age range and so forth that's laid Out. You must have a high school diploma or ged.

[44:25] you could have a local rule that says, No, you know what? Firefighters have to be emts. We want them to have at least 30 hours Of college.

[44:31] so you could have a local rule that's a Little stricter than what the state law

[44:35] allows for. And again, Council may not reject or amend rules adopted

[44:43] by the commission. When I was first hired by The city of san antonio,

[44:48] it was customary for the civil service Commission to send the rules for the city council for approval, And it was an observation that said state law

[44:57] says the commission has full authority, And it had to be told to the council that

[45:02] they did not have the authority. Now there is checks and balances and I'll go Over that.

[45:07] where the council does have authority to Limit what can and cannot be done,

[45:11] because guess what? City council controls the Budget. And so if there are some rules that are going To cost the city,

[45:18] and the city says we can't afford those, Then those rules are not going to affect

[45:22] because you don't finance or you don't budget Those dollars.

[45:27] now one thing to point out, Frank, I think councilman butler has a question. Yes. What's the ability for the Commission to amend the rules once the rules

[45:35] are established? The commission? Yeah, the commission has the authority to Amend the rules at any time.

[45:40] now, I will tell you, Based on the commissions I've worked with, they rely a lot on the management of both Fire and police to make recommendations to

[45:50] some rule changes. For example, If they're having difficulty finding

[45:55] applicants for certain for positions and the Police department or the fire department

[46:00] comes and says, you know what, We need to relax some of these entry requirements because we're having difficulty Getting applicants,

[46:06] or they want to change the promotional Process or require additional time for for

[46:12] someone to qualify for promotion. So I will be honest that a lot of commissions Do rely on both city management and police

[46:21] and fire management to give recommendations To rule changes. But again, it's up to the commission.

[46:28] pardon me. Isn't that kind of what we have in Place already? Yes, sir. But again, it's the commission that Makes the final to say in this case.

[46:37] now, I will be honest, Since you both have chapter 143. In collective bargaining on your ballots, Collective bargaining agreements may override

[46:46] any commission rule. So you might have Chapter 143 and have requirements on certain

[46:52] requirements for promotion. Well, with collective bargaining you can Negotiate those away.

[46:58] and so basically your chapter 143 would no Longer be applicable if a contract

[47:02] specifically takes that away.

[47:07] and so would the commission then just amend Its rules to match whatever the agreement

[47:12] was. What I have recommended, Because negotiations change from time to

[47:17] time, is basically identify that that rule Has been overridden by the collective

[47:22] bargaining agreement. Okay.

[47:27] one of the other duties of the commission is To recommend classification and pay scales

[47:31] over the fire department. I heard during citizens be heard that you've Had a pay committee that go over some of the

[47:40] pay scales and so forth. Well, the commission would now have full Responsibility to recommend classification

[47:46] and base pay scales of the department. This is one area where the council must Approve recommendations or return back to the

[47:54] commission for further consideration. You can't amend them, But if you disagree with them,

[47:59] you send them back to the commission. With what? What basis is the reason you did Not?

[48:03] you denied those recommendations. It is sometimes an issue between the council And commission.

[48:10] I've seen it work out most times where it Does get worked out.

[48:15] there is one exception. Collective bargaining, Again, can take that authority away from the

[48:20] commission. And most cities that have both Commission has nothing to do with pay and

[48:27] classifications. It's all done through Collective bargaining.

[48:32] city of san antonio police and fire civil Service commission has not had anything to do

[48:37] with pay scales or classifications from the Outset because collective bargaining has been

[48:42] there from the outset.

[48:47] other duties of the commission is to appoint A director. The commission must appoint a director to Oversee the enforcement of the civil service

[48:54] rules. The director may be a commissioner, May be a city employee or any qualified

[49:00] person. I have never seen a commission Appoint one of its own commissioners as the

[49:05] director. Most cities appoint the hr director Or an assistant hr director as the commission

[49:11] director, the commission can remove the Director at any time without management or

[49:17] council approval. Again, The commission will set the standards for

[49:24] hiring of its firefighters in accordance with Chapter 143.

[49:29] the commission can set stricter guidelines as Long as not in conflict with state law.

[49:35] I have many cities that identify and have Stricter guidelines with regards to drug use,

[49:40] employment history and criminal record.

[49:47] under chapter 143, a firefighter is defined As an employee who performs fire suppression,

[49:54] fire prevention, fire training, Fire safety, fire communications, fire administration, Fire arson,

[50:00] and fire ms. If chapter 143 is adopted by Your voters,

[50:07] all firefighters who've been employed with The city for six months or more are

[50:13] automatically civil service employees, Except one.

[50:17] your department head. Your chief is never a Member of the civil service.

[50:23] for employees who have been employed for any Firefighters that have been employed for less

[50:27] than six months, it will be up to the Commission to require them to take any

[50:32] entrance exam, or to go ahead and allow them To be civil service.

[50:40] some requirements under chapter 143 for Appointment of a firefighter must be between

[50:44] the ages of 18 to 36 for entry. Firefighter. I have some cities that have Changed that to 21 to 36.

[50:53] must meet legal requirements for Certification by commission of fire protection personnel honorably discharged From the military.

[51:00] high school diploma or ged? Again, I have some cities that have increased That to 30 hours of college education.

[51:07] read and write english. Pass an entrance exam. Pass a physical exam. And again, It is the commission that sets all these

[51:14] standards. And that's why it takes a while to Develop all these rules.

[51:21] commission would set the standards and Enforce by fire department through the hiring process. Academic criteria.

[51:27] financial responsibility. Have they filed for Bankruptcy? Do they have outstanding debts

[51:32] and so forth. Physical fitness. Driving record. Do they have 20 speeding Tickets since the age of 18 to 21 and so

[51:39] forth. Polygraph exam. Will that be required to be hired?

[51:44] psychological evaluation. Employment history. Use of illegal drugs and Again criminal history. These are all sample

[51:50] disqualification factors that have Disqualified applicants from being hired.

[51:57] entry exam procedures. City must post notice of exam.

[52:01] there must be a vacancy before you're even Allowed to post a notice.

[52:08] you may be anticipating vacancies, But you cannot post for a test until you

[52:12] actually have a vacancy. City must provide for open, Competitive, and free exams.

[52:19] the commission would certify the list and Must appoint from the list.

[52:25] five points are added to the honorably Discharged veterans,

[52:29] and the commission must post a list of all Candidates who passed the exam, and the list is good for 12 months or until It is entirely exhausted.

[52:41] the department must consider three candidates For every opening.

[52:46] chief executive must select the highest Ranked candidate unless it has a valid reason

[52:52] for skipping the candidate. Who's the chief executive?

[52:56] the city manager would select from the Candidate list.

[53:01] I. As city attorney, I went through a very Long argument with the former city manager

[53:06] who says, I've never done the hiring, But because a candidate who did not get

[53:10] hired, challenged and went to court, The court came back and said,

[53:16] city, you're doing it wrong. Wrong. You have The fire chief going through the candidate list. The state law says chief executive must Go through the candidate list.

[53:24] so, mr. City manager, You are now going to have to go through the lists and make all the hiring decisions Yourself.

[53:32] so when it says a valid reason for skipping The candidate, can you give us some examples of what are Valid and what are invalid reasons?

[53:38] sure. So some of the reasons for for example,

[53:42] the individual failed the polygraph exam During the applicant process.

[53:47] he's up there on the list, But you're passing the individual because he failed the polygraph exam or passed the Physical agility test,

[53:55] or after he applied for the test, Took the test great.

[53:59] made a great score on the test, Got arrested. So you have to again, Those are valid reasons for skipping

[54:06] somebody. Previous employment history. He'd been fired from his four previous jobs.

[54:12] you know, those are all things that you're Able to take consideration as long as you have civil service rules to back up as Reasons why you can disqualify someone.

[54:21] so the reason has to be within the rules. That's correct. Okay. Okay.

[54:25] so it's not discretion on the part of the if It's discretion to some extent,

[54:30] but it's discretion based on the rules that Were adopted. Got it. And then if he does skip, The executive must file a report with the

[54:38] commission as to why it selected a lower Ranked candidate. And then all firefighters under chapter 143 Must serve a one year probation.

[54:50] promotional procedures. Firefighters are not eligible for promotion Unless in the previous position for two

[54:56] years. Exception. Only one year requirement If recalled to military duty and serves at

[55:02] least one year on that military duty. City must post notice of exam 90 days before The exam notice.

[55:11] must identify the source of materials that The exam is going to come from,

[55:17] and again, must have a vacancy to call for a Test so you have a vacancy.

[55:22] you then have to post notice, And you have to wait 90 days before you can give the promotional exam all exams must be Identical and given at the same time.

[55:34] exception. If someone is out on military duty When the exam is given and they come back and

[55:38] they they were eligible for promotion, They must be given a promotional exam as

[55:43] well. And or the exams, Are they state wide?

[55:48] no, sir. Standardized. In fact, that's one of the discussions that I Had.

[55:54] most cities that have chapter 143 hire Consultants to prepare these exams based on

[56:00] the materials that the department is wishing To use to promote individuals.

[56:06] so it is something that in order for the city Not to be accused of of creating slanted

[56:14] exams and so forth, you hire a consultant Who's an expert in fire and police

[56:19] examinations, and you have those individuals Develop neutrally based exams based on the

[56:27] materials that the department wants those Ranks tested on.

[56:31] and are those consultants typically Attorneys, I'm assuming, or not necessarily so.

[56:37] but I guess to that question, Then does the city attorney's office in any

[56:44] way represent the committee, Or is or the commission, or is the commission have independent Counsel?

[56:51] if so, how does that get paid for? The city, the city council will will have to Fund the services of the commission.

[57:00] I have some cities where independent counsel Is used and not the the city attorney's

[57:07] office. And I have other cities where the City attorney's office represents the fire

[57:11] and police commission and the civil service Commission. The reason is because disciplinary appeals go To a third party,

[57:19] and I'm going to talk about that in a second. And so there's really no fight between the

[57:26] department and the commission because the the City attorney's office,

[57:31] there's no discretion or there's no Discipline being appealed. So they don't have to play both sides.

[57:37] but some cities do hire independent counsel. For example, I am the general counsel for the Fire and police commission for the city of

[57:45] san antonio because there are issues where The department is on one side, represented by the city and the commissions On another side.

[57:52] I can see where that would happen. Yeah. Very easily. A candidate can receive up to Ten years for seniority,

[58:00] one year per year on a promotional exam. Candidate may appeal exam questions and or Answers within five days.

[58:07] commission must rule on the appeal of the Questions before posting the final scores. This is one of the most.

[58:16] time consuming matters for your commission, Because one point can make a determination as

[58:24] to whether a person is going to be promoted Or not.

[58:28] so there are always appeals of exams.

[58:34] and that's another reason why I had to have a Third party to do your examination,

[58:38] so that they can make the arguments as to why A question is valid, because your candidates are going to be Challenging those questions in order to

[58:46] hopefully have them thrown out. So their Score will go further up and other people will go down. So they'll have a better chance For promotion, because promotional exams are

[58:54] very competitive, and sometimes there's only Three promotions going to be made off a list,

[58:59] and there's ten people on that list. They're going to do what they can to try to Move up on that list.

[59:04] and that process is through the appeal of Examinations.

[59:09] so commission must rule on the appeal of Questions before posting final scores.

[59:15] it is a criminal offense if any part of the Exam is revealed or received at any time.

[59:20] that is under chapter 143. 43. So when these candidates take an exam, They cannot go talking about it to other

[59:27] candidates in the future of what's on this Exam.

[59:32] so what's the format of the exam? Are these multiple choice, Are they essay or are they short answer.

[59:38] I mean how do they how is that determined.

[59:42] they are not essay because they have to be Graded right there at the test location by

[59:49] the commission. No, not by the commission, By whoever is the proctor for the exam.

[59:57] okay. The proctor, the exam. And it's basically, you know, The fill in the little holes and question and

[1:00:03] so forth. Then it goes into the computer and Boom, they'll know their score before they leave The room.

[1:00:08] that is one of the requirements of chapter 143.

[1:00:12] all exams must be graded at test location. Got it? Exams must be totally in writing and No oral interviews exception.

[1:00:21] reception. City can negotiate in collective Bargaining contract to allow for an assessment center. A lot of the cities do Allow for assessment centers for your upper

[1:00:30] ranks, and they negotiate that in your Collective bargaining. That can't be done by chapter 143 by itself.

[1:00:37] chapter 143 only allows for written and no Oral portions of an exam question.

[1:00:44] you have a student that has a maybe a Dyslexia problem,

[1:00:48] some type of reading, Because at the victoria college we can actually read the exam to the candidate.

[1:00:54] can that be done here? That can be done. That, That that specifically there is an ag opinion

[1:01:00] on that because the law says it must be the Way it's processed,

[1:01:05] but because of ada and everything else that Can be done.

[1:01:11] again, I think I went over this. Can can receive up to ten points for Seniority.

[1:01:17] candidate may appeal the exam. And go forth. If vacancy exists.

[1:01:22] top three candidates. Names given to the Chief. Now, here's one where the chief makes Promotion and not the chief executive

[1:01:27] officer. The chief must select the top Candidate unless there's a valid reason exist

[1:01:32] to pass. For example, After the exam was given, the person received a one day suspension for Violating a policy.

[1:01:40] that's a valid reason to pass over a Candidate for another candidate has to re

[1:01:45] follow report to the commission of the top Candidate is not selected. The promotion must be made within 60 days of A vacancy.

[1:01:54] the there is an exception under 143 for a Fire. Chief can appoint top four levels without Going through exam process.

[1:02:02] if council gives that authorization. That authorization? In san antonio, The top three levels in the fire department

[1:02:14] do not have to go through civil service Examination. The city has created a separate assessment Center for those types of positions,

[1:02:21] so it does give some flexibility for top Levels if council wishes for them not to have

[1:02:26] to go through the exam process, Which in your point there where you talk

[1:02:31] about the chief must select the top candidate Is a top candidate. Whoever scored the highest on the test?

[1:02:36] that's correct. I mean, That's that's the top. That's the litmus test. Yes, sir. Okay. Salary.

[1:02:43] all firefighters in the same rank must be Paid the same. Except you can take into consideration Longevity pay,

[1:02:50] seniority pay. Educational incentive, Pay assignment, pay certification, pay shift differential pay Higher classification pay.

[1:02:59] and again, collective bargaining can modify Any of those aspects of it depends on what's

[1:03:04] negotiated. Desperate actions may only be Taken for reasons stated in section 143.

[1:03:14] conviction of a felony or crime of moral Turpitude. Acts of incompetency, Neglect of duty.

[1:03:21] acts shown, lack of good moral character Under the influence while on duty or

[1:03:26] violation of applicable standard operating Procedures, your local rules, and so forth.

[1:03:32] your disciplinary letter must cite each civil Service rule violated.

[1:03:38] commission can actually overturn a suspension If the letter fails to cite the civil service

[1:03:44] rule violated. Firefighter may not be Suspended without pay for more than 15 days.

[1:03:52] if it's going to be greater than 15 days, Than the employee probably should be indefinitely suspended, Which is what we would all,

[1:03:59] in the normal sense, call termination. The chief must notify in writing commission Within 120 hours why the employee was

[1:04:08] suspended, why they don't use five days? I don't know, but the law says 120 hours.

[1:04:15] the city may not discipline an employee for An act over 180 days old exception if it's

[1:04:22] criminal activity and the city has no Knowledge of it. We. I recently had this incident in one of my Cities,

[1:04:29] where the chief had given certain officers a Credit card and a take home vehicle,

[1:04:36] and that credit card was for gas and fuel for A take home vehicle.

[1:04:41] they had provided these two years later, They did an audit and found that one

[1:04:47] particular officer firefighter was abusing His credit card and take home vehicle,

[1:04:53] had four times as much fuel during that two Year period than any other officer, and he did not live the furthest away.

[1:05:00] and so when he was disciplined, The argument was, well, the city should have known they gave Him a credit card and allowed him to take the

[1:05:07] vehicle home. The city responded, But we were unaware of the criminal activity

[1:05:12] of him stealing basically from the city. So an arbitrator eventually ruled in favor of The city that it even though it was over 180

[1:05:22] days old, the city was not aware of the Criminal activity until the audit actually

[1:05:26] had been performed. Employee is given a right To appeal any discipline.

[1:05:32] within ten days, the employee may select Either the commission or an arbitrator under

[1:05:38] one 4357. I can tell you now that if you just Have civil service commission and not

[1:05:44] collective bargaining 95% will go to a third Party examiner and not go to the commission.

[1:05:51] why? Who appoints the commission? City manager's office.

[1:05:56] so they will go to the third party examiner Or arbitrator.

[1:06:03] that cost of the arbitrator is half to the City and half to the firefighter or

[1:06:09] association, if represented by the Association. If appealed to the commission, The appeal must be heard within 30 days.

[1:06:15] and like I mentioned, It rarely goes to the commission.

[1:06:20] some miscellaneous provisions under 143. Any firefighter who performs the duties of a Higher classification pay must receive the

[1:06:28] pay of the higher classification pay. You go to duty and the local lieutenant has Called in sick,

[1:06:34] and they ask you to perform the duties of the Lieutenant. You're going to be paid as

[1:06:38] lieutenant for that shift. Chief of the department. When appointment Must be confirmed by council under 143.

[1:06:47] the chief removed must be returned to a Previous civil service position,

[1:06:51] unless removed for cause and has a right to Hearing.

[1:06:56] now it is silent. On what if the chief comes From outside?

[1:07:01] it does not address that issue, In my opinion because that individual is not

[1:07:07] civil service protected and did not rise Through civil several civils rank and hire

[1:07:11] from the chief from the outside. There's no Position to return that person to. So I do not think it would be applicable.

[1:07:16] it would only be applicable to if a person Was promoted within.

[1:07:21] and so in that instance, That chief, if they're let go from that

[1:07:25] position, they just go back into where they Were before they were promoted to chief.

[1:07:30] correct. Unless unless they were removed for Cause. Okay. And then any decision by commission may Be appealed to district court.

[1:07:39] it has not come to council. Their decisions are appealed to district Court.

[1:07:46] there's requirements for military leave. Time Accounts must be established.

[1:07:51] political activities of firefighters and Officers are controlled by state law.

[1:07:56] city must maintain personal files in Accordance with state law. And then there are procedures. If you have a Firefighter who's arrested for felony or an

[1:08:05] indictment, there are procedures you must Follow under 143, and then the leave policies are also Controlled by state law.

[1:08:16] so that's chapter 143. I'll briefly go over collective bargaining Because I know you still have a very long

[1:08:20] meeting tonight. Collective bargaining again, is the process where employees, Representatives negotiate with employers to

[1:08:27] reach an agreement on wages, Benefits and working conditions.

[1:08:32] texas law prohibits most public employees From engaging in collective bargaining,

[1:08:37] but there's an exception for police and fire. Again, it's chapter 174 of the local Government code allows cities to grant

[1:08:44] collective bargaining rights to their police And firefighters.

[1:08:48] in order to adopt collective bargaining, A city must order election if petition is signed by 20,000 residents, Or 5% of the number of qualified voters

[1:08:59] voting in the last city election, Any city of any size can be petitioned,

[1:09:07] as you remember, in order to be a chapter 143, you had to be a city of over 10,000.

[1:09:11] there is no limit. There is no minimum here, Any city of any size.

[1:09:15] in fact, I represented the smallest city in Texas with collective bargaining,

[1:09:20] the city of balcony's heights for over 20 Years. I represented them there, a city of 3000, and they have collective Bargaining for their police department only

[1:09:30] if approved by voters. Law is in effect not later than 30 days after The next fiscal year.

[1:09:35] so very similar to chapter 143. It would have to be in place by november 1st Of 2026.

[1:09:41] repealing is the same. Petition requirements 20,000 residents or 5%.

[1:09:46] again, I've never seen one repealed. The city of balcony's heights had an election Last may to repeal it,

[1:09:53] and it lost 54 to 46%.

[1:09:59] cities that have it hate it. Unions love it. Successful negotiations are Dependent on the attitudes of the parties

[1:10:09] negotiating the contract. If you go in with the attitude, You're going to make them pay or they're not

[1:10:15] going to get a dime, extremists never Succeed.

[1:10:21] collective bargaining negotiations are a lot Like a mediation when both sides aren't

[1:10:26] happy. But you have a deal. That's what usually happens.

[1:10:31] successful negotiations usually occur in both Sides. Listen and focus on those mutual gains, With or without collective bargaining.

[1:10:39] public safety takes most of a city's budget.

[1:10:45] civil service chapter 143 rules still apply Unless the contract specifically provides

[1:10:52] otherwise. Your firefighters are entitled to Organize and bargain with city.

[1:10:57] if chapter 143 passes, They'll be able to organize and negotiate

[1:11:02] with regards to their compensation, Their hours, their health benefits for employees and Retirees leave,

[1:11:08] and other conditions of employment. Let me ask you about that. What is other Conditions of employment?

[1:11:13] what falls under that? Well, for example, I've seen fire contracts Where it has requirements for sleeping

[1:11:22] quarters. You know what those are going to Look like. It has requirements for how many shifts they Can work overtime.

[1:11:31] so those are types of some of the other Conditions of employment. It's really what both sides agree to.

[1:11:40] city must recognize the association selected By a majority of firefighters to be the

[1:11:45] bargaining agent. This usually is not an Issue for most entities,

[1:11:49] but it was an issue, for example, For bexar county sheriff's association when

[1:11:53] they finally had their collective bargaining Approved. You had your deputies on one side

[1:11:58] and you had your jailers on the other side, And there was a debate as to who was going to

[1:12:02] be the lead negotiator. So you only must recognize the one entity Selected by the majority of the firefighters

[1:12:10] to be the bargaining agent. If there are other subsidiaries, You're not going to negotiate with them only

[1:12:16] with the main bargaining agents selected by The majority of firefighters.

[1:12:20] all members of the fire department are Eligible to be members except your fire

[1:12:25] chief. Some benefits to collective Bargaining. Employees negotiate their wages and benefits,

[1:12:31] and there are consistent and fair working Conditions. When you negotiate a contract for 3 or 4 Years out,

[1:12:37] you know what to budget those 3 or 4 years Out because it's set for those three four

[1:12:43] years. The negatives inflexibility for Management.

[1:12:47] you have a four year contract, But in year two your economy goes down and

[1:12:52] your contract says what you're going to Increase. Wages are for that one department, And you may not have it for other departments

[1:12:59] because of that collective bargaining Agreement. What? Pardon me? What happened during covid For? For some of these municipalities.

[1:13:08] well or downturn in the economy, But I'm just the cities were still required

[1:13:14] to abide by that collective bargaining Agreement.

[1:13:19] there were times where some of the parties Were able to negotiate a delay.

[1:13:23] they came back to the table and renegotiated An extension of the contract in exchange for

[1:13:28] delaying an increase. They were able to Negotiate a couple more years down the road.

[1:13:32] so it's really up to the parties at any time They can reopen negotiations if both sides

[1:13:37] are amenable to that aspect of it. Normally, though, if I can add so you may Recall during the budget presentations,

[1:13:44] me giving some examples of some cities that Are in the process of making quite a bit of

[1:13:49] cuts because of the downturn in the economy, Everybody's seeing the stagnation in property

[1:13:54] values, etc., when all of those instances, You know, one of the things those communities had in Common was that they were civil servants and

[1:14:00] collective bargaining communities. Right. And So what they're in essence, unless they renegotiate and reopen the Contract,

[1:14:08] those communities are having to decrease Budgets in non public safety centric areas in

[1:14:15] order to honor the contract. And is there any I know we're you know, We have our current cap on 3.5% that,

[1:14:23] you know, we can move or whatever. Is there Any exception to that cap for these type of

[1:14:29] contract requirements? Or is basically it is what it is.

[1:14:33] and you got to find the money somewhere. During the last legislative session, There was a bill that did not get through,

[1:14:38] but there was a bill that would make an Exception to 3.5%.

[1:14:42] well, actually, it was tied to the 1%. Remember they discussed going to 1%. Yes, it was tied to that where there was an Exception.

[1:14:50] if you needed it for police and fire, It did not pass.

[1:14:54] so it's still at 3.5%, But there is no exception for police and

[1:14:59] fire. Got it. Thank you. Some of the negatives. Again, The inflexibility for management and then

[1:15:04] time consuming, costly and complex Negotiations. I've seen negotiations even for the city of Balcony's heights take eight months.

[1:15:14] so it could be time consuming, Costly and complex.

[1:15:21] both sides are under a duty to bargain in Good faith.

[1:15:27] they must meet at reasonable times. They must confer regarding compensation hours And other conditions and execute a contract

[1:15:36] incorporating agreement. Usually the most contentious issues are Usually pay and health benefits,

[1:15:44] and not just health benefits for the Employees, for health benefits for the retirees as well.

[1:15:53] both sides must designate one or more persons To negotiate.

[1:15:57] it's common to have a full room on both Sides, and there's a picture of actual city of san Antonio negotiations.

[1:16:07] if the association is going to propose a Contract that will cost the city more than

[1:16:12] the current contract, They must give you 120 days notice before the

[1:16:17] fiscal year. Negotiations must comply with The open meetings act.

[1:16:24] every meeting of collective bargaining has to Be open to the public.

[1:16:31] parties should agree to the ground rules for The negotiation process. And again, the agreement is binding on both The city association and the individual

[1:16:40] officers. Because at the end of the day, The individual officers will be voting.

[1:16:45] firefighters will be voting on the contract As well as the city council will be voting on

[1:16:50] the contract. If an agreement is not reached On the 61st day after negotiations start,

[1:16:58] parties reach an impasse. However, parties may extend the negotiations At 15 day increments.

[1:17:06] I was part of the city of san antonio Negotiation team twice for both police and

[1:17:10] fire, and the 50 day increments were very Common because we were not ever going to get

[1:17:15] to reach an agreement within the first 60 Days. If impasse is reached, Either party may request arbitration.

[1:17:27] neither party really cares for arbitration in This area. Why? Because you're usually going to get an Arbitrator who comes in from out of town,

[1:17:36] makes a decision that no one is happy with, And then they leave town and you're stuck

[1:17:42] with that decision. And I'll give you an Example. The last before the last negotiations, The city of san antonio and the fire

[1:17:51] department for the first time in their History, went to an impasse and they went to Arbitration.

[1:17:58] city of san antonio loved the results of the Arbitration ruling. It ruled in their favor in every aspect but One.

[1:18:06] the firefighters were not happy because During the impasse there was no pay increase.

[1:18:13] the impasse was almost one year in almost two Years in length before the arbitrator ruled,

[1:18:18] and when the arbitrator ruled, It did not favor the firefighters.

[1:18:24] so but I've also seen it the other way, Where the arbitration was not in favor of the

[1:18:31] city. So every instance but one.

[1:18:35] I have seen both sides work and work because They do not want the contract to go to

[1:18:42] arbitration. So I understand you say when it Says request arbitration,

[1:18:46] either party can actually force arbitration. Yes, sir. Okay, I have a question.

[1:18:52] you made the comment. Cities that have it Hate it. But we know that there's approximately 160 Plus texas cities that do have this.

[1:19:03] from your perspective, What factors have led to those cities being able to adopt it successfully?

[1:19:08] and how do their circumstances differ from Ours currently?

[1:19:13] well, many instances. I mean, It's hard to vote against firefighters.

[1:19:21] it is and when firefighters are, You know, asking for fair pay,

[1:19:26] fair working conditions and so forth, A voter finds that very compassionate

[1:19:33] argument in favor. I will tell you, I mean.

[1:19:39] the city of balcony sides of 3000 should not Have collective bargaining. It is too small of a city to be able to Afford collective bargaining.

[1:19:47] and the proposal to repeal it failed because It looked as if,

[1:19:52] though it was an anti-law enforcement Proposal, because it's the it supports police officers.

[1:20:00] and so it was deemed as anti-police and Therefore it failed.

[1:20:06] but I don't have a problem with some of the Larger cities with collective bargaining or

[1:20:11] chapter 143 both sides are able to negotiate. It's just small cities like that.

[1:20:16] it's just it it takes up almost their entire Budget and they don't have the resources to

[1:20:22] pay some aspects of it.

[1:20:27] but the reason I said cities hate it because It does tie their hands and it is inflexible.

[1:20:36] for the years of the negotiations. However, I will also be honest that some Cities during the,

[1:20:44] the, the economic upturns know exactly what They're having to pay. They've budgeted for it. They they don't have They they're able to forecast and be able to

[1:20:53] predict what that police department or what That fire department personnel and costs are

[1:20:57] going to be for the next 3 or 4 years. And I would add on to that, Councilman butler,

[1:21:03] you know, your specific question about, You know, what potentially makes victoria different? I just go back to the to the Common denominator or the,

[1:21:12] I should say, the common issue that we've Talked about already at length, which is our lack of growth, right.

[1:21:17] one of the things that really differentiates Us from many of the other communities that

[1:21:21] have collective bargaining is that there are Growing communities. You know, in our particular case, You know, we understand that when we don't

[1:21:28] have growth, we struggle to keep up with our Ongoing expenses as it is. Right. So that could be potentially a Financial challenge or a financial

[1:21:35] difference. Something to keep in mind. I wanted to chime in earlier, But just for context.

[1:21:41] kingsville, where I served previous to Victoria, had civil service in collective bargaining, And they're a community of 27,000.

[1:21:48] just to give you a sense of, You know, that there are, I guess, not many sites with 3000, But, you know,

[1:21:54] there are some communities that are larger Than balcony's heights but smaller than

[1:21:59] victoria that have civil service and Collective bargaining as well. So let me ask this. If we're talking about Cost involved in this.

[1:22:06] I mean, obviously if these were initiated, Either one that it's going to increase the

[1:22:15] euro year on year expenses of the city. I mean, there's no doubt about that. What Does it do for the administrative side in

[1:22:21] terms of our administrative costs? And that May be more of a question for mr. Garcia. Sure. No, it's we've we've talked about it.

[1:22:27] and, you know, like anything else, There would be a set up cost,

[1:22:32] if you will. You know, We discussed this yesterday that, you know, we would more than likely would Need to hire an attorney to help us and

[1:22:40] develop all of these procedures and processes And to help the commission,

[1:22:44] I should say, do all of these things that Could range from 25 to $30,000 in legal fees

[1:22:49] to help set that up. And there might be some Other initial costs on a recurring basis.

[1:22:56] you know, you heard frank talk about how Typically departments hire third party

[1:23:00] companies to do testing. You know, that would be an ongoing an example Of an ongoing expense that we don't currently

[1:23:06] have that we would incur. There may or may not be other things that That arise that might necessitate us hiring

[1:23:17] an outside help for. But some of the the Heavy airlift,

[1:23:22] like who's likely to be or our director, Probably somebody with hr.

[1:23:27] right. You know, who's likely to be, You know, staffing the meetings, Helping with agendas, you know, taking

[1:23:31] minutes, you know, doing all that stuff that Would just be existing staff. And if that existing staff is already spread Out thin,

[1:23:38] then it could potentially lead to some Changes in hiring some additional staff to

[1:23:43] help with that. Assuming that it got to that And kingsville's case, there was no need to hire additional staff, You know,

[1:23:49] to do that. The negotiations would happen Every three years.

[1:23:54] and in that scenario, There wasn't a need to hire an outside negotiator either. That was something that Was done through a combination of the city

[1:24:00] manager and city attorney. So it just depends. I will say, Though, on a recurring expense,

[1:24:04] please keep in mind that we already have a Step program that commits us maybe not

[1:24:12] through an agreement, But commits us to pay increases every two years for both police and fire.

[1:24:17] and so in our financial calculations, When we project out, you know, what's going to be our expense next Year or two years from now,

[1:24:23] we already are getting a sense of that, Just based off of the existing step plan that we have. And as a refresher, You know, for both police and fire,

[1:24:30] that's 3% every two years for some of the Lower ranks in this with this new pay program

[1:24:35] that just went into effect in october, We actually changed the higher ranks to to be

[1:24:39] 2% every three years versus 3%. But that's already calculated sort of in our,

[1:24:46] I guess, financial performance to some Extent. And so if collective bargaining goes through,

[1:24:52] you know, there has already been some thought On in continuing to invest in public safety,

[1:24:57] some of which, of course, Came through the work of the subcommittee as well. But just know that that's there.

[1:25:02] and later when frank's done, I'll walk you through a couple of other things that we're already doing that kind of Hit on some of the points of civil service

[1:25:08] and collective bargaining. But on the Financial part, just know that we're already investing and Already planning on invest.

[1:25:14] and so that's contemplated for. Thank you. My last two slides is just really A regurgitation of what we said earlier with

[1:25:23] regards that if chapter 143 civil service is Approved by the voters,

[1:25:27] the city shall appoint a three member Commission within 60 days of the canvasing election commission will establish rules and Procedures again for the hiring,

[1:25:34] promotion and discipline of firefighters. Commission will appoint a civil service Director council required to fund the

[1:25:41] administration of the civil service system, The civil service must be in effect no later

[1:25:46] than 30 days after the next fiscal year, And then the existing fire department employees with more than six months will Automatically receive civil service status,

[1:25:55] and then, under chapter one, Setting forth is approved by the voters again must be in effect no later than 30 days after The next fiscal year.

[1:26:02] recognize fire association city commenced Negotiations of terms.

[1:26:06] the negotiations continue for 16 days and 15 Day increments, and the contract is approved by the parties Unless an impasse is reached and then either

[1:26:15] party may request arbitration if impasse is Reached. And with that, I'll be happy to answer any Other questions you may have and be here till

[1:26:24] you're done with this item for an hour.

[1:26:28] other questions? I have one. I always have one, and you stated it very Clearly.

[1:26:34] voters are going to be asked to decide this. So based on your experience, What is the most misunderstood aspect of

[1:26:43] civil service collective bargaining that both Supporters and opponents have?

[1:26:48] what's the what's the one thing that maybe Both parties miss?

[1:26:58] I think what most part, What people don't understand is the complexity of the negotiations, Especially for your first agreement.

[1:27:07] you're starting with nothing. Now, both sides may be bringing models from Other cities,

[1:27:13] but your city is unique. Your circumstances are unique.

[1:27:18] so the first time you sit down to negotiate, It is a complicated process,

[1:27:25] and it sometimes does get very emotional Between the two sides.

[1:27:31] and I think that's one part that's very Difficult to grasp rasp is the initial start

[1:27:38] of negotiations for the very first time.

[1:27:42] so for the voters out there that are trying To understand, you know, what this is or is not, How best would you describe it to them?

[1:27:55] I guess the best way to describe it, It's any individual who's gone through a

[1:28:00] complex negotiation to purchase a house or to Sell a house or it's it's it's a difficult

[1:28:06] process. Your first time around, If you don't have experience and it's for

[1:28:12] that reason both sides are going to need to Have experts to help with that initial

[1:28:21] negotiations of collective bargaining.

[1:28:25] chapter 143 is much easier to understand. It's a process with regards to laying out the Hiring promoting disciplinary of of your

[1:28:38] firefighters. Collective bargaining is your Negotiating terms between sides.

[1:28:44] it's not one side setting the rules and then Everybody following it. It's what both sides come to agreement with And whenever it does at times get difficult.

[1:28:55] and if I can, if I can add on to that, That actually segues perfectly into some of

[1:28:59] the remarks that I wanted to make, Because one of the things that concerns me

[1:29:03] about what is that public conversation going To be like is that,

[1:29:08] you know, if all you focus on is the overview That frank just provided as an example,

[1:29:13] the underlying unintentional implication Might be that, you know, we don't have fair wages, That we don't have fair working conditions,

[1:29:20] you know, things of that sort that we don't Have processes to hire people, that we don't have processes to promote People.

[1:29:25] and that's not true. You can disagree with What we have in place. Right. But it would be false to think that There aren't already,

[1:29:34] that there isn't already a process to Promote, that there isn't already a testing process to Promote those things exist already,

[1:29:40] right? So, for example, With pay I just described earlier, I won't repeat myself. You know, we obviously have a step program That already contemplates, you know, pay

[1:29:47] increase every two years for police and fire. Right. So if there's a member of the public That's thinking that we're not thinking long

[1:29:55] term, would that be false because we have the Step plan, right? And so I just want to make it clear That we do have processes and protocols as it

[1:30:05] relates to some of these items that are at The discretion of the fire chief. And I guess ultimately as myself as the city Manager.

[1:30:12] now, do they vary by chief? Yes. My they vary even with the same chief Depending on the situation.

[1:30:18] yes. And that's why very intentionally, One of the cons is the is,

[1:30:22] is that managerial discretion. Right. Because there might be certain certain Instances where,

[1:30:28] you know, the chief may want to be stricter Or less stricter, you know, with certain processes, Right? And that's his discretion currently as

[1:30:34] chief. And my discretion as city manager. And so what 143 does is obviously create that Consistent,

[1:30:42] you know, kind of feel to it. Right. That would be very minimal in the Opportunities for discretion.

[1:30:48] but again, to be clear, You know, we have some of these things in place. And one of the things that we're Embarking on as a way to try and educate the

[1:30:53] public on those factors is that we are Working internally on developing an faq

[1:30:58] document and a website that we plan on Launching next week that will include just

[1:31:04] some basic faqs around what is collective Bargaining, what is civil service addressing some of These questions that we're talking about now,

[1:31:12] such as what is the current pay for police And fire? What's that structure? What is the current Process for x, y, and z so that we at least

[1:31:18] can do our part to try and educate the Public? Because it is a big decision.

[1:31:22] I'm sure the fire association has their own Plan on, you know, community outreach and education, And that's obviously their prerogative. But

[1:31:30] from our perspective, We want to make clear that some of these things are already in place to some extent.

[1:31:40] and and I think it would be appropriate as Well to convey to you what I've conveyed to even members of the fire department myself Through meetings that I've had with them, is

[1:31:48] that I also am concerned that people look at This election as a silver bullet to solving

[1:31:52] many of our challenges. Right. And I think we can all agree that our Commitment to public safety is there,

[1:31:57] regardless of whether we have civil service Or not, regardless of whether we have collective Bargaining or not. And so I want to be very

[1:32:04] clear with them and with anybody in the Public that public safety is a priority,

[1:32:08] regardless of whether this passes or not. And I think our recent actions, I think, show that.

[1:32:13] but I just don't want people thinking that if It fails public safety all of a sudden or

[1:32:18] fire department's not going to be a priority Anymore. I don't want people thinking that if

[1:32:23] it does pass, you know, All of a sudden, you know, it's going to mean we're going to fix all of These issues that we're having with

[1:32:27] recruitment and retention as an example. And So we just, I think need to be just mindful of all of the Factors.

[1:32:36] I'll add on mr. Mayor, I do appreciate you just as some of the other

[1:32:41] speakers up here today said about the Compensation committee and all the fine work

[1:32:46] that that you guys have done in pushing the Ball forward. So that was an excellent first step.

[1:32:52] and and it continues. And so thank you and Thank you to the committee for, for that as they mentioned, I do have a question.

[1:32:59] mr. Garza. Mr.. Frank garza.

[1:33:04] that's my brother. I'm just kidding. The civil service with the three appointed Members,

[1:33:10] and now they're appointed by the city manager And confirmed by the council and confirmed by the council. How much work do they have to do To set all this up?

[1:33:20] it seems like a full time job early on. And you know, what are their qualifications?

[1:33:26] I mean, for all of the setting up testing and And and I just went through your slides,

[1:33:31] I was just baffled by the amount of expertise That three people who may not even be in the

[1:33:40] realm of firefighting would or management Would have.

[1:33:45] it is a lot of work to develop those initial Rules.

[1:33:52] the commission, I will tell you, Will get will get a lot of help from staff

[1:33:58] from the fire department with regards to Those initial rules.

[1:34:03] there's a lot of great places to start with, Those initial rules and those model rules out there and so forth, but it will take time Once the rules are approved and established.

[1:34:14] for example, the san antonio fire police Commission meets once a month.

[1:34:18] just a lot like your p and s and so forth. Why? Because they don't handle the appeals, The disciplinary appeals.

[1:34:24] those are handled by your third party Arbitrators and so forth.

[1:34:28] they're dealing with the examinations and the Appeals of the exam questions and approving

[1:34:34] lists and calling for tests that are Required. The commission must do but that first initial Six months to adopt the rules.

[1:34:44] I can tell you, for example, In the city of new braunfels, the commission members were meeting once a week until the Rules were finally adopted.

[1:34:53] and I'll jump in there. I think that it would Be probably more work, but similar to the process that we use for The charter review committee,

[1:35:00] where we did hire an expert to come in and Walk the committee members through that, and they did meet repeatedly.

[1:35:06] I think it was over a course of several Months as they walked through the process of

[1:35:10] creating those amendments to our charter. So that would be the most similar process We've gone through so far to what we would

[1:35:17] have to do in this situation. I said on that committee, And that was a lot of work.

[1:35:23] so did my husband. I remember. Yeah, yeah. So one other question about this About this commission.

[1:35:28] so obviously they're not accountable or Reportable if you will,

[1:35:33] to council. And I know that the city manager Appoints him.

[1:35:38] do they report to the city manager or are There just a complete autonomous body?

[1:35:42] they are complete autonomous body. Okay. Interesting. Okay.

[1:35:50] I kind of like a hypothetical question, I guess. So the two groups cannot agree on salaries For each rank.

[1:35:59] so it goes to arbitration and continues and Continues a year.

[1:36:05] and an agreement is finally reached.

[1:36:09] is it what? They reach the agreement, Does it go into effect?

[1:36:14] but then. Or is there like a back to back pay For the firefighters that well,

[1:36:20] again, you mentioned that parties can't agree And then an arbitrator comes in.

[1:36:25] right. An arbitrator can make it effective Immediately retroactive.

[1:36:29] whatever the arbitrator decides to do. If both sides are in negotiations, Both sides can decide.

[1:36:35] for example, I'll give you an example of one Of my cities was in negotiations. It went a year past the, The, the the expiration.

[1:36:43] and the city said, look, If we don't reach a deal, we're only going to give you six months back Pay.

[1:36:49] we're not going to go. The increase will only Be back six months, no matter how long these negotiations and the Parties agreed.

[1:36:55] so even though it took a year, The retroactive salary increases only went back six months because both sides negotiated That.

[1:37:02] when it's an arbitrator, It's whatever the arbitrator rules that both sides have to live with.

[1:37:11] any other questions? Once again, You cannot repeal ever chapter.

[1:37:17] that's correct. Unless state law changes. That's correct. Okay. Thank you for your Patience with all our questions.

[1:37:25] this is a completely foreign, Unknown world for us. And so we have lots of them.

[1:37:30] and we may we may have more. And so hopefully allison has your phone Number.

[1:37:34] she does. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thank You sir.

[1:37:40] all right. Moving on then.

[1:37:45] with other parts of our agenda we jumping Back up.

[1:37:50] we do not have any items of public hearings Tonight. So we will move to section d, Which is our consent agenda,

[1:37:56] miss holbrook? Yes, sir. D1 is the adoption of minutes of the regular Meeting held on september 16th, 2025 and the

[1:38:03] special meeting held on september 26th, 2025. Item d2 is a resolution approving a Contribution and aid and aid construction

[1:38:10] agreement with american electric power for The relocation of overhead power lines in

[1:38:15] front of the new public safety building at 2525 north main, in the amount of 450,450 517,090 $0.04.

[1:38:24] item three is a resolution adopting the fy 2025 2026 budget for the victoria sales tax

[1:38:30] corporation. Item d four is a resolution Authorizing the city manager to execute a

[1:38:35] contract with the texas state library and Archives commission for a grant award in the

[1:38:40] amount of 67,200. Item d five is a resolution Approving the fy 2026 selective traffic

[1:38:47] enforcement program, or the step impaired Driving mobilization grant from the texas

[1:38:51] department of transportation. Amount of $6,342.20,

[1:38:56] which requires financial participation from The city in the amount of $1,282.20.

[1:39:02] thank you, miss hilbert. Do I have a motion With respect to the consent agenda? Motion to approve as read by miss hilbert.

[1:39:08] second. Got a motion? And second. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Any opposed? None. And the consent agenda?

[1:39:15] agenda passes. So we'll jump to item e1. Item e1 is a resolution approving the Allocation of leftover construction funds to

[1:39:23] the pine street development project in the Amount of 260,000.

[1:39:29] all right. Well, good evening, Mayor and council. Good evening. This presentation was delivered By danielle at the work session two weeks

[1:39:37] ago. So I'm not going to go through all of It. But just at a high level of this project

[1:39:42] would transform the former water treatment Facility and purchasing warehouse located at

[1:39:46] 1201 pine street into a new single family Residential neighborhood with up to 20 homes

[1:39:53] being built on that site. And then importantly, Returning exempt property back to our tax

[1:40:00] rolls. So the slide I want to focus on is the Funding strategy that was presented.

[1:40:08] we're currently going through the asbestos Abatement. Next up, we have the demolition cost of 500,000 in the underground utility fill in

[1:40:17] and other items needed to prepare the site. At 350,000. You'll see the funding sources There.

[1:40:22] we've got two amounts from general fund, 170,000 on the demolition cost line and then

[1:40:28] 90,000 on the underground utility fill line, For a total of $260,000.

[1:40:34] so we're just formally requesting that we use Some money that we had left over in our

[1:40:38] construction fund. These were funds pretty Much most construction projects have some

[1:40:43] contingency built into them. So when those funds aren't used, That that gives us additional money that we

[1:40:49] can use towards other projects as well as Accumulated interest earned in the fund.

[1:40:56] so anyways, there's $260,000 there that we Would like to allocate towards this project

[1:41:01] with your approval and be happy to answer any Other questions.

[1:41:05] anybody have any questions? Thank you for the Information.

[1:41:09] with that then I will entertain a motion with Respect to item e e1.

[1:41:14] move to approve item e1. Second. Got a motion a second is there any Discussion?

[1:41:20] seeing none. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed and e1 is approved.

[1:41:25] let's move to item e2. Item e2 is a resolution approving cooperative Purchasing contracts for various computer

[1:41:31] software, peripherals and related equipment In the amount of $1,432,816.

[1:41:37] good evening, mr. Foot. Good evening, mayor. Council again. This is tom again. Before I get to come in And tell you where all the money is going.

[1:41:45] your items always have big numbers in them. I'm getting up to you know, Some of the other departments,

[1:41:52] but I do have some, a couple of them. So, again, to remind council that we are Affiliated with the following purchasing

[1:41:59] cooperatives and government entities. We do Compare these contracts if there are multiple

[1:42:05] contracts available and also do reach out to The vendors manufacturers directly to see if

[1:42:10] there is better pricing. You'll see the breakdown of our corporate Purchases.

[1:42:17] this is a little bit different from last Year, and that's a great example of how we compare those contracts.

[1:42:23] so our decrease from 64% to 52% and by board Increased from 21% to 36%.

[1:42:36] software maintenance again made up the most Of our purchases. That was 82% or $1,180,000.

[1:42:44] and as I mentioned in my annual report we Continue to see price increases from vendors.

[1:42:51] and you can see we saw a 29, 23.9% increase in our costs are $228,000.

[1:42:57] this increase, I also want to point out, Also includes multi-year contracts that are

[1:43:03] coming due in fiscal 26. So it's not all price increases, But we do have some prices.

[1:43:07] in the next slide we'll show those price Increases. Just. So I wish I'd bought stock in broadcom Who purchased vmware vsphere because

[1:43:18] obviously I would have made some great, Great returns on that money. But that was the result of why vm went up That much 310%.

[1:43:25] they were purchased by another company and Immediately they went up on their price increase. So we are seeing that was by far Our largest.

[1:43:33] we're hoping that we will not see another Price increase from them.

[1:43:37] we are looking at other solutions for that. So our vmware is how we are able to run Multiple servers on one physical server.

[1:43:47] we also have our multi year contracts. Again No. Before that everyone loves and our four day Care is our fortigate for our firewalls.

[1:43:58] again it is the largest 887,000.

[1:44:03] again, I want to remind council that it is an Internal service department and we are

[1:44:07] utilized to distribute those charges out to The multiple departments. If you see what police department, If there is something that is specifically

[1:44:15] software that is related to a single Department, then those charges are charged directly to Them and not to it.

[1:44:23] and I'm happy to take any questions. Any questions for mr. Foote.

[1:44:29] as we anticipated through the budget process, We see our it costs going up this year for

[1:44:34] software and other items. So with that then do I have a motion with Respect to item e two motion to approve item

[1:44:43] e two I'll second. Got a motion a second. Is there any discussion? All in favor say Aye.

[1:44:49] aye. Any opposed? Any. Two passes. Thank you sir.

[1:44:53] we'll move on to item three. Item e three is a resolution approving Contracts with lawn star yard care and bio

[1:45:00] landscape and maintenance incorporated dba Yellowstone landscaping for the mowing of

[1:45:05] city owned properties in the cumulative Amount of $500,714.82.

[1:45:10] good evening, miss uecker. Good evening. So we're here to look at some of our mowing Contracts.

[1:45:17] for all of all of city, Including public works parks and and

[1:45:22] environmental. We're going to talk about our Biggest two here.

[1:45:26] the request for proposal went out the Beginning of august. We had a mandatory pre-bid on the 21st of August.

[1:45:34] bid opening was on the 27th, And then we did our scoring on the 29th.

[1:45:38] we had representatives from those departments That were involved in these contracts.

[1:45:45] one thing we did this year was we moved these To align with the city's fiscal year.

[1:45:52] so we we had to kind of do a little juggling To make that happen. But going forward, it's going to make things A lot easier.

[1:45:59] each of these mowing contracts is good for One year with four additional one year

[1:46:04] renewals. The first one is for city Facilities and our public works properties.

[1:46:12] these come out of both the fire department And public works budgets.

[1:46:17] you can see their covers, Fire stations it also covers public works,

[1:46:22] wastewater treatment plant, Public works facility. And then out of the the public works budget Related to the water plant,

[1:46:31] we have water towers, Lift stations. You get the idea. There is a quite a bit of City property that needs to be maintained.

[1:46:40] and we work to make sure all of these are Well maintained.

[1:46:46] this was awarded to lone star yard care in The amount of $112,838.

[1:46:55] and then our next one is this one is for a Lot of our outfalls drainage areas.

[1:47:01] so it's it's big areas needing a lot of heavy Equipment.

[1:47:05] this one was awarded to yellowstone Landscape.

[1:47:10] and this comes out of the public works Budget. Both street and water for ditches, Outfalls.

[1:47:17] right of ways off channel reservoirs.

[1:47:23] and you can see here this map actually shows Those areas from from all those drainage

[1:47:30] ditches and outfalls, Anything that goes into those.

[1:47:34] and we wanted to point out here that all of These areas are part of the city's ms4

[1:47:39] infrastructure. Ms4 just means municipal with Four s words after it,

[1:47:47] which is which is separate storm sewer system And per our stormwater permit,

[1:47:57] these areas qualify for maintenance under This permit. And we've got some of the major ones labeled There the west outfall jim branch outfall.

[1:48:05] some of these, the lone tree creek that You're familiar with. The north outfall. Large expansive areas.

[1:48:13] so therefore, you know, If the stormwater fee is enacted, these areas would fall under that funding and Be removed from these contracts.

[1:48:23] mr. Yeager, how many, How many cuttings do they do on those outfalls? It depends on which ones.

[1:48:29] a lot of these don't need as much as some of The other properties.

[1:48:34] so you'll see, you know, They may be mowed twice a year just because

[1:48:38] of number one where they're located. And if it impedes any drainage.

[1:48:42] also, you know, if it's a, A place people see a lot.

[1:48:47] we try to include those and take into Consideration budget constraints.

[1:48:52] we'll take care of those. The ones on the previous contract are ones That are more facilities.

[1:48:57] and so they're mowed more frequently, Maybe every two weeks we'd eating that sort

[1:49:02] of thing. Thank you. And that is that is it?

[1:49:09] christy, can you go back? I think it's two slides back.

[1:49:13] so this item was originally on consent, But at our most recent council meeting. I know councilmember delagarza had some Questions about, you know, the west outfall

[1:49:20] and maintenance and things of that sort. And So we wanted to be a little more intentional

[1:49:26] with, with reminding you on, You know, who's responsible for the maintenance of those outfalls from, From a, I guess,

[1:49:33] landscaping perspective. We outsource a lot of those jobs, Right? And so if there's an outfall as an example That we're paying to be mowed twice a year,

[1:49:42] but it happens to be, You know, a rainy season that, you know, warrants there to be a third time Maybe,

[1:49:48] or a fourth time. Sometimes those things have To be done on an ad hoc basis.

[1:49:53] where we end up calling that same contractor And saying, like, hey, we need an extra mow.

[1:49:58] you know, when can you get out there? Or sometimes, if it's in a highly visible Area,

[1:50:02] as christy mentioned, We might be able to send, you know, parks crew to go handle it, But it's just not part of their normal scope.

[1:50:09] right. And so I think it's just important for Us to just be aware of,

[1:50:13] you know, those details. Because sometimes those details prevent us From being able to maybe be as proactive as

[1:50:21] maybe we'd all want to be, Because I think we all have high expectations, and we would all want these Outfalls to look in pristine condition all

[1:50:28] the time. But just unfortunately, We just don't have the money to pay for as

[1:50:32] many mowings or the staff to keep up with as Many mowings as probably what they ideally

[1:50:37] would require in order to stay in top shape All the time.

[1:50:43] and we definitely try and keep those areas That we get, you know, people notice complaints about, We try and get them a little more than

[1:50:51] others. Of course, that's something that's Laid out in the contract because I,

[1:50:56] I see where doctor young was going with it. If it's if it's some place that's like twice

[1:51:00] a year, is there an expectation of, You know, narrowing down when that twice a year might Be or if it's biweekly what,

[1:51:10] what you can anticipate. So as somebody driving by and you one of us Gets a call and it says,

[1:51:16] oh, this is really overgrown. Is there an expectation to keep within those Contracts?

[1:51:22] and within our discussions with the Contractor, we have a regular schedule we really try and Keep to.

[1:51:27] when we get those calls, We will refer back to that schedule and we will look back and report back to people that Went actually is scheduled to be mowed here

[1:51:36] next month. You know, Some of these, it is very detailed because it

[1:51:41] also helps the contractor plan for other Business that they have. So it is something that's very specific on when the mowings take Place.

[1:51:47] so adding something or oh, This area really needs to get done.

[1:51:51] you know once in a while we are able to set. Now some of these are massive and we honestly Don't have the equipment for some of these.

[1:51:58] but other areas, if we have to send a crew Out, sometimes we will try and aim to do that.

[1:52:03] most of the time, though, We let people know we have a schedule and a budget we keep to. Can you clarify the item?

[1:52:12] I don't quite understand is that three Different companies lone star yard care and

[1:52:17] then a second company bio landscape, And then third company maintenance.

[1:52:22] and they're all doing business as Yellowstone. Right? I'm sorry. That's two companies.

[1:52:28] that is the lone star yard care is one Company,

[1:52:33] bio landscape and maintenance, Doing business as yellowstone landscaping is

[1:52:38] the second company. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I apologize if I wasn't clear.

[1:52:43] this is one contract here for city facilities And public works properties,

[1:52:48] and that one is lone star yard care. It's a whole different contract, But these are all. We just put all these

[1:52:54] together in our mowing contracts. And then this one is actually yellowstone Landscape.

[1:53:01] but I do think but I do think there's a third One, isn't there? Yes. We have several other Mowing contracts that we do.

[1:53:09] you might you may remember from years past, We had maybe 4 or 5 mowing contracts that

[1:53:14] came to council for approval. However several of those fell back under the $100,000 mark that was approved previously by

[1:53:23] council to not have to go to offer approval. So those were simply passed the city manager For him to execute.

[1:53:29] right. So that's why it seems like there's Less than there was previously. Right. So in your packets you might have some references To those other contracts,

[1:53:36] there's some smaller ones as well with parks And with environmental.

[1:53:41] and if the jobs have already been divided up, who's going to do what task?

[1:53:46] why was it put under one item? Just item three. Why not two separate items?

[1:53:52] it's historically how we've always done our Mowing contracts. We put them on one on one

[1:53:56] item, one agenda item. And then if you look at the resolution, It has each one of them separately listed

[1:54:02] out. We can certainly look at splitting them Out in the future if you'd like us to.

[1:54:07] I just needed an explanation. That's it. Yeah. Okay.

[1:54:12] all right. Any other questions? All right. If not, thank you.

[1:54:16] miss hager. And I will accept a motion with Respect to item e three.

[1:54:23] motion to approve. Second. We've got a motion and a second. Any discussion? All in favor, Say aye.

[1:54:30] aye. Any opposed? And e three passes.

[1:54:34] so we're going to combine since we're non Traditional on our agenda today anyway we're

[1:54:41] going to combine item f one which is a city Manager's report.

[1:54:45] and item e four into one presentation from Miss uecker.

[1:54:50] so miss holbrook, if you would please call Both of those items together. Okay, so item f one is a landfill and compost Facility.

[1:54:57] rate increase update. And item e four is a Resolution approving the fourth amendment to

[1:55:03] the containerized commercial solid waste Contract with waste management of texas incorporated. Okay, so these are all related To our yearly rate increases.

[1:55:15] and to remind you we have these are three of Our contracts and all of our contracts.

[1:55:21] so we're going to look at all of these. The First one waste management is the one that

[1:55:25] does our commercial waste pickup.

[1:55:29] so that's our containerized commercial Contract for all of our businesses and our

[1:55:34] roll-off containers. And then republic Services, as you know, currently manages our landfill, And then gardnerville manages our compost

[1:55:42] facility. So we'll look at the waste Management rate increase.

[1:55:47] and this is the one that does require city Council approval.

[1:55:52] this is a this is a ten year contract. And this one is per the contract.

[1:56:01] the rate increase is well, This is the fourth amendment and it is based

[1:56:06] on the cpi out of houston, Woodlands, sugarland, and the way it's composed here on the left, You'll see that 60% of this is for

[1:56:16] maintenance and operations. Once again based on that cpi and then the 40% Disposal that is a pass through for republic

[1:56:24] services. And I'll get to that in a minute. That they pay as they take obviously they Take the waste to the landfill so they pass

[1:56:31] that through. So that is also a part of this As well.

[1:56:35] so that comes to a total of 0.5855% total Increase.

[1:56:40] and and their rates this year. And you can see there as an example of what a Six cubic yard picked up once a week would

[1:56:47] look like. Current rate is one 5428. The proposed rate would be one 5518.

[1:56:54] and that's an increase of $0.90 a month. And you've got examples.

[1:57:01] and in charts of all the other services they Provide as well.

[1:57:06] and then the next one is for republic Services. This one is our contract with them actually Is up in 2027.

[1:57:16] and you may recall we are in process of Procurement on that landfill contract.

[1:57:22] as we speak. This contract allows for maximum Increase of 8% in a two year period.

[1:57:30] as you know, landfill operations can vary Depending on weather,

[1:57:35] on conditions, on all sorts of things, Whether we have a freeze.

[1:57:41] so this protects the city and protects Everyone in this contract.

[1:57:45] so what we'll see here. This is also they can do an 8% over two Years.

[1:57:52] so this comes to a 1.43% decrease for city Waste because cpi is considered there to that

[1:57:59] same one out of houston, Woodlands, sugarland and then a 4% increase for third party. And on our gardnerville this One,

[1:58:09] we are in year six of a ten year contract. There will be no rate change on this also Based on that same cpi.

[1:58:16] so the rates there will remain the same at 52, 89 a ton to bring into the compost facility.

[1:58:24] and that is all I have on that. Any questions. Any questions for miss euchre.

[1:58:32] so I believe the only one of those that we Have as part of item four is the waste

[1:58:37] management contract. Correct? Correct. And that's built into that contract,

[1:58:42] that cpi adjustment we're basically just Amazing. Yeah. Well, we. If you want to approve it, We approve it.

[1:58:48] got it. Okay. Any motions on item e for Approve?

[1:58:54] item e for second. All right. I've got a motion a second. Any discussion?

[1:58:59] seeing none. All in favor, Say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Any for passes.

[1:59:04] thank you, miss euchre. Thank you. We will move on then to our final Item,

[1:59:10] which is item e five. E five is a resolution Nominating a candidate or candidates to serve

[1:59:16] on the victoria central appraisal district Board of directors.

[1:59:21] good evening, mayor and council. The Resolution before you tonight will nominate an individual or individuals to the victoria Central appraisal district board of

[1:59:27] directors. So the role in the property tax System for the for this particular board is

[1:59:33] they actually hire the chief appraiser. They set the budget and they appoint the Appraisal review board.

[1:59:39] just a reminder, they have no authority to Set values or the appraisal methods. The chief appraiser does carry out the Appraisal district's legal duties and hire

[1:59:47] staff, makes appraisals, And operates the appraisal office.

[1:59:52] so the election process, Just as a reminder, begins before october 1st.

[1:59:57] we the mayor and city manager receive letters From the chief appraiser delivering the

[2:00:02] voting entitlement, which was included in the Packet the copy of the letter, as well as the voting entitlement and the Taxing entity before october 15th,

[2:00:12] has to nominate one candidate for each Position to be filled or one or more for each

[2:00:18] of the positions to be filled. So and the ballot is prepared and distributed By october 30th.

[2:00:26] so we'll send everything in, She'll make the ballot. And then again, the mayor and city manager will get letters that Include the ballot.

[2:00:32] and then we are required the city manager City council is required by december 15th to

[2:00:37] count a vote. Our cast votes by resolution, And then I return it to the chief appraiser,

[2:00:43] and the two candidates with the most votes Are declared elected,

[2:00:48] and the voting entities are notified by December 31st. So the nomination part is a little different Than in years past.

[2:00:58] we all of the board members in the years past Were elected at the same time,

[2:01:02] are nominated and then elected at the same Time. And that is not how it is due to some law changes. So over the last couple of Years,

[2:01:10] things have been changing, But they now have just two of them because

[2:01:15] they have staggered, staggered expiration Dates. And so just two of them are up at this time.

[2:01:20] so each taxing unit may nominate one Candidate for each of the two positions to be

[2:01:24] filled. I did speak with councilwoman scott, And she has expressed interest in being

[2:01:30] reappointed. She currently serves as the Chair of that particular board.

[2:01:35] and the the new term of these two positions, Instead of being like a 1 or 2 year term is

[2:01:40] now going to be a four year term. And that's Due to a law change. So it won't expire until december 31st of 2029.

[2:01:48] so this slide lists out the voting Entitlement for each entity.

[2:01:52] so as you can see, we're about third on that List of voting with 987 votes,

[2:01:58] with isd carrying the most in victoria county Having just a little more than we do.

[2:02:06] the the casting of the votes. I'm going to go over this just a little bit.

[2:02:12] we're not doing this at this time. We're just doing the nomination portion of It. But just to kind of as a reminder,

[2:02:16] the governing body may cast all of its votes For one person or distribute the votes among

[2:02:21] the candidates. Historically, The city of victoria had cast all its votes for one city council member to be nominated On this board.

[2:02:28] but in 2023 council chose to start casting One vote for each nominee to maintain the

[2:02:33] ability to initiate removal of a board member If needed. But that'll come in november or maybe even Early december,

[2:02:40] depending on when we get it on the council Agenda. That's where you'll actually cast the vote. So at this point, we're just asking for 1 or

[2:02:48] 2 nominees for this board. And we'll move forward from there.

[2:02:55] so do we nominate, do we nominate an Individual?

[2:03:01] can you nominate the same individual for each Of those positions because they're going to

[2:03:05] be separate votes. Or are they looking for Two separate individuals. The two candidates with the most votes are Going to get automatically put on that board.

[2:03:12] so I would think you would want to stick with With just nominating one, either one person or one for each spot.

[2:03:18] this is what I'm getting at okay. All right. So obviously miss scott, I believe serves as the chair on that board

[2:03:25] presently. And she would be the logical Choice. So and if she says she would like to be Reappointed,

[2:03:32] then that makes sense. So, Does anybody have questions for miss holbrook? I'd like to nominate miss scott Even though she's not here,

[2:03:38] but I appreciate her willingness to serve. I'd like to second it. All right.

[2:03:43] that's what happens. You don't show up, Right? Right. You get nominated for things. We can nominate mark for the other one. I Guess that would just be wrong.

[2:03:51] all right. I've got a motion and a second to Nominate miss scott. Is there any discussion on that?

[2:03:57] okay. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Any opposed? And miss scott has the Nomination of council.

[2:04:03] very good. All right. I believe that Completes our agenda for the evening.

[2:04:08] I understand we will have a short executive Session. So it is 705. Let's take a ten minute break And then we will reconvene into executive

[2:04:17] session. The city council recess for Executive session on the eighth day of

[2:04:22] october, 2025 at 7:05 p.m.. The deliberation is as follows.

[2:04:27] the exemptions are texas government code 551.08755, 1.072, and 551.071.

Oct 08, 2025 Special City Council

Agenda

Transcript