[0:10] Call this meeting to order. Let me call the role. The role. Uh Shannon

[0:17] » here. Ben

[0:19] » here. >> Joe

[0:22] » here. >> Yeah, me. I'm here, I think. Uh Karen's

[0:28] not here yet. She may be. Diane can't make it. So Dan, Diane and presently

[0:35] Corine are not here, but they may join us

[0:39] later. >> Britney, we're still missing two.

[0:42] » Britney's not coming. She just sent an email.

[0:45] » Okay. >> She may log in at 8. She's stuck in on

[0:49] the on her commute home. >> All right, Britney is not here either,

[0:54] but still we have a forum and we need seven. There's seven members I think.

[0:59] » Yep. >> And four and the rules really read a

[1:03] majority of members and four is the quorum. Four is that. So we are we have

[1:10] a quorum. Okay. Let me start the meeting. Could

[1:14] you go to the first U slide? Excuse me, M. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman.

[1:20] Just a just [clears throat] a notation. Meeting opened at 7:08 p.m.

[1:27] All right. Okay, let's start the meeting. Um, this

[1:34] is uh just a list of of deadlines uh for the warrant. I'm not sure that we

[1:41] want to submit anything, but they asked me to distribute and there it is. Um we

[1:48] do have items that will end up going on a town meeting of course the um the

[1:57] rental assistance program and I think uh but I think that's

[2:02] probably for the ne the spring usual spring uh town meeting. So we'll defer

[2:07] that to then. And I think too uh when it comes time we should for for the spring

[2:14] meeting consider whether we need to have a regular budget. In the past we have

[2:20] not had a budget. We relied on the fact that um we can draw funds from the

[2:26] affordable housing trust but the funds in the affordable housing trust are

[2:31] getting down there and we have other uses for it. So it might be worth

[2:37] considering but not and how we feel we need to do it now for the ball meeting.

[2:43] Um so unless any questions we'll move on to the next topic.

[2:48] Okay here's the minute. Uh there's the agenda

[2:51] and the minutes. Here's Channing has prepared the minutes. Has everybody had

[2:57] a chance to review the minutes which I said

[3:00] » my name's My name's spelled wrong. There's an S on the end of it. My name

[3:05] is also spelled wrong at the top. Vermin is V R M I N. Okay,

[3:12] » let me let me >> but it's spelled correctly later in the

[3:17] notes. So I don't know >> cuz I didn't catch well. That's why

[3:21] that's why I didn't catch it. >> Is it close?

[3:26] » Did I come close? >> No, it's a guy. I don't know.

[3:31] » Okay. >> The A is same to an I. What else? Wendy,

[3:36] » say say it again. >> Your name is misspelled somewhere. You

[3:41] said >> Yeah, there invitees present. There's an

[3:44] S at the end of Trinks.

[3:49] » Oh, yeah. Yeah, I got that changed. Okay.

[3:54] Verable. I will entertain a motion to uh accept the minutes as modified.

[4:00] So moved. >> Do I hear a second?

[4:02] » A second. >> All in favor? We'll have to do a roll

[4:06] call vote. Uh Channing. Channing in favor. Ben.

[4:12] » Me. I

[4:17] » Okay, the minutes are approved. Thank you very much.

[4:22] Okay, what do we got next here? Do

[4:26] » you want me to go up to the >> Yeah. Now the next item is under old

[4:31] business is just to keep track is has there any been anything new any response

[4:38] about the estate planning letter that we submitted some time ago? Ian, you're

[4:42] probably the person who knows best about that.

[4:47] » Uh as of now, no. I'd be happy to continue to explore other options, but

[4:53] I've reached out to I think two other folks at the EO EOHLC now and I did call

[5:00] the general line twice and left an email on the general housing help

[5:09] email that they have there and I haven't gotten anything. Mind you, that was last

[5:15] week, but um yeah, I have not gotten anything

[5:20] there. I'm still happy to to continue trying any

[5:25] new solutions if if uh some members should have any, but it's

[5:31] » I don't know the politics of of HO ELC that well, but um does anybody

[5:41] have any suggestions for anything else to try? It is an important issue. Maybe

[5:46] they're just trying to not deal with it. I don't know. Any

[5:52] It sounds like trying all the things I can think of. Ian.

[6:00] » Well, okay. I'll >> If anybody can find a phone number, I'd

[6:04] be happy to call them. The only thing is I was calling the a couple of the like

[6:10] the EOHLC numbers including the one for questions and I left uh several a couple

[6:18] voice messages. So if you can find a voice message for someone, I'd be happy

[6:24] to call them.

[6:29] » Well, okay.

[6:33] Do we have I mean I don't I haven't dealt with the the group for a while.

[6:38] I'll look through the uh directory and see if there's anybody in there yet

[6:42] still that I know. Uh is there anybody that is in town government that's likely

[6:48] to know of a a name to call? Um I think it's would it's a good suggestion, but

[6:54] it'd be good to find out who would be a a person who might return your call.

[7:01] Oh >> yeah, I can I I should I'll ask Alec if

[7:05] he has anyone. Really? I don't know. I mean, unless Wendy has someone, but

[7:15] » um >> I can also go up the ladder and maybe

[7:17] try Stephanie and Amanda. >> Stephanie might be a good source of

[7:24] information. She presumably deals with those folks more than we do. Although I

[7:29] wouldn't be surprised if they just send me they probably one person they would

[7:34] send me to is is Whitney who I had been emailing five six times over now.

[7:42] » Well, you never know. There might be somebody else. You might get some other

[7:45] guidance. Um >> yeah, it's a good it's it's really one

[7:51] of the only options I can think of right now. So,

[7:55] » well, good luck. >> Thank you. Thank you very much for your

[7:58] » certainly could use it. Yeah, no problem.

[8:01] » Um, okay. >> I think I'm up with the presentation.

[8:07] » Yes. Now, this is a separate. >> Yes. Yep. Um, sorry for not getting this

[8:13] sooner. I was out for a few days, but

[8:17] » So, can you can you >> Yeah. Can you can you take down your

[8:22] » Oh, I did. Okay. Give me one second and I should be able to.

[8:28] » But you have the share feature. >> Yep. And then I just need to Oh my. Come

[8:34] on.

[8:39] All right. I should be able to do so now.

[8:44] How does this look, guys?

[8:48] » Great. Yeah, I should say this is one this is one thing we decided on at the

[8:53] last meeting that it seemed zoning was a important factor however mysterious. So

[8:59] this is an educ educational effort on the part of Ian to

[9:04] » help us navigate this difficult topic. >> Thank you. And this is this is uh this

[9:10] is off just a couple days of of research, but also kind of lot of

[9:15] conversations that like I've had with Finn as as she's come by the office. Um

[9:21] Channing and Al have kind of picked my brain about and we have these several

[9:26] options that we've talked about. Um, but it's good to kind of see them put on the

[9:31] table into one presentation like this where I'd say Joe's presentation is uh

[9:37] kind of big idea options of like sell versus keep and uh keep and develop

[9:44] versus this is more just focused on reszoning and trying to answer the

[9:50] technical questions um that the board may have as well as give these options

[9:55] in regards to reszoning this lot because we've been kind of asking ourselves or

[10:01] at least some folks have been asking me about them. So, I have six options that

[10:05] we're going to kind of go through. Um, I kind of ordered them in most realistic,

[10:10] maybe most feasible um to ones that have maybe more challenges, but we'll get

[10:15] through them and I'm happy to answer as many questions as I'm possibly able to

[10:20] to uh get through on on each of these. So, it's really just six slides after

[10:26] this, but let me begin. So, option one is kind of a broad one that it captures

[10:33] a couple of these different further options, but uh we'll just call it

[10:38] sightsp specific overlay zoning. Um, so there's no real picture of how to

[10:45] demonstrate what a overlay zone may look like. There's overlay zones in Boston

[10:49] just as there are overlay zones out in the B birkars. uh it can really take any

[10:54] any shape or form. And then the state also has their own overlay districts

[11:00] which are some of the options that we'll see later. That's why I I was talking

[11:04] about that. So um the AR agricultural residential district will stay this

[11:09] middle layer, this zoning layer. Um, and then we will kind of create from scratch

[11:16] our own overlay district to then put over this um this 72 road property. And

[11:25] and you know, if if we want future if we want the potential for uh future growth

[11:32] and there's spots nearby, then it may also be worthwhile to uh explore kind of

[11:38] beyond just that single um parcel. But for the time being, it would definitely

[11:43] be over that single parcel. Um, and we would need to very similar path to the

[11:49] MBTA communities district. The only thing is with the MBTA communities

[11:53] district, we obviously had a lot of help and support from um the EOHLC to shape

[12:00] up that language and to ensure that it would meet those state requirements with

[12:06] a sightspecific lo local overlay district. you could call it something

[12:10] like 72 Stow Road or Stow Road overlay district um town center housing

[12:17] district. Um we would be shaping those own requirements um as we see fit. So it

[12:23] can be as broad or as tight as we deem necessary um giving us kind of the

[12:28] maximum control over this um over this new zone we'll call it. This would be a

[12:35] new zone. really only one of these options is is to change it, but we'll

[12:40] get to that. Um, so we'll talk about the trade-offs. Obviously, they're kind of

[12:46] simply put here. Requires a planning board hearing and a town meeting

[12:49] approval. Um, >> yeah, this this needs to be we there are

[12:57] laws in place to make sure that we're not just kind of making these crazy

[13:01] districts um that we would need to follow. So again, there would be some

[13:06] support from EOHLC, but we would have to go out and seek that. Um, and we would

[13:12] be carrying most of this burden really between Alec and I um looking for a lot

[13:19] of help from the housing board and the planning board along the way to make

[13:23] sure this captures really what we're trying to go for. And a lot of the other

[13:28] options, some of the state um routes, uh they offer a lot of support and even

[13:34] financial incentive to kind of choose their um overlay growth district

[13:41] options. But um yeah, happy to answer any questions before we move on to the

[13:46] next one. >> Yeah. Ian, would

[13:50] this is an MBTA district be part of the possibilities

[13:55] here? Yes. Yep. That's actually so I wouldn't really call that an option one.

[14:02] Option one is also explored in several of these other options. I have MBTA

[14:07] communities district as another option that we can explore as well as two

[14:13] additional like chapter 40R chapter 40Z. So yes, you're right. Um, but the idea

[14:19] of this and kind of trying to separate it into a different category than MBTA

[14:24] communities, smart growth, and starter homes, um, would be kind of our own

[14:29] overlay district, um, with the definitions and requirements that we

[14:34] would see fit.

[14:38] » What about party wise zoning? Um, is that one of the the possibilities here?

[14:43] I mean, that's kind of an >> It is. Do you want me to I can I'd be

[14:47] happy to hop around to them. It is option three. Option two is MBTA

[14:51] overlay. >> Go straight through.

[14:53] » All right. I don't want to mess with your presentation.

[14:56] » Hold your horses. All right. Um so the next one is um option two is the

[15:02] » NBTA communities overlay district. And um

[15:07] [clears throat] >> yeah,

[15:09] » could you go back to the first option, please?

[15:11] » Absolutely. >> Yeah. I I'm I'm trying not

[15:17] [clears throat] just in this case but I guess the whole thing to get some sort

[15:20] of baseline from which I can move forward step by step

[15:26] on the overlay that you have there something property does that have

[15:30] certain aspects to it is that just ownership or is that town control or is

[15:35] the town control come in on the zoning part of it and then the overlay comes in

[15:40] on some flexibility as to the zoning characteristics.

[15:45] » So, I'd say the town the town ownership would actually come in at the property

[15:49] level because that changes just as property changes. Um the zoning itself

[15:55] is then enacted by the town and if um it wouldn't impact necessarily our base

[16:02] zone just as the MBTA communities um is kind of a layer on top of that base zone

[16:10] up on the um whatever hill uh those hill apartments are are made for. So to

[16:17] answer your question, I think I think that answers some of it is the the

[16:21] ownership is on the property itself. The zoning is then enacted by the town and

[16:26] the overlay zone is essentially another blanket of zoning that can further

[16:32] restrict or open up um kind of uses and allowances um within a zoning district

[16:41] which is is also shown really we understand that a lot more because we

[16:47] saw it happen with the MBTA overlay district. Does that make sense?

[16:51] » Why don't you keep going? Okay, happy to. Um, so this is uh the MBTA overlay

[16:58] district. There's less to talk about here because we know this and we've done

[17:02] it. And I will add that um we the the planning board is bringing a very minor

[17:09] amendment to the current existing MBTA communities overlay district that you

[17:15] see on this slide um to their fall town meeting to make to get that final

[17:22] compliance. Um there was a slight kind of error in um the materials in the

[17:28] calculations that the state um made. So, we're working to edit and adjust those,

[17:34] but they're very, very minor adjustments. Um, anyway, focusing on STO

[17:39] Road. Um, with this second option of continuing to expand the box borrows

[17:47] MBTA community overlay district, we would be able to essentially either make

[17:53] a new MBTA communities overlay district. So very similar to how um we have a

[18:00] business and a business one district, we could explore the option of making a

[18:05] second MBTA communities overlay district that is different than this first one we

[18:11] have up on Hill Road or we could follow um we could follow the current standards

[18:18] to a T which would mean like 30 foot setback or I believe it's two stories

[18:24] maximum of 30 ft height. on the building, 1.5 parking space per unit,

[18:29] 10% affordability, were all of these options that we um essentially codified

[18:34] into our bylaw at that zoning district on the north side of town. And it would

[18:40] be if we do decide to explore this option, one of the first things we would

[18:43] need to do is checking whether or not the current restrictions and standards

[18:50] on that overlay district would be valuable to bring to the Stow Road site

[18:57] or if we would need to open up a new kind of MBTA communities um district and

[19:03] the center of town. Obviously, we know it was it was uh an option from the

[19:09] start to have this. Um but if we >> yeah, it's we we have kind of two

[19:16] options with this option, but it's something that would come with more

[19:20] support from the EOHLC. Of course, it won't affect our standing compliance um

[19:27] as we continue to kind of expand this overlay district um in one way or

[19:32] another. And um let me see anything big I'm missing. Not really. Yeah, that's

[19:38] important to know. Um currently we have it at about 13 units per acre as it

[19:43] stands. We're trying to adjust that very very minorly. But it's it you know if we

[19:49] were to explore this and want to move forward with this then we would need to

[19:53] um really study as to whether or not the current um

[20:00] the current standards of the Hill Road MBTA communities overlay district would

[20:05] be worth bringing to Stow Road or if we would need to um edit and uh kind of

[20:11] change around the language so that we can kind of see what we want built at

[20:16] Stro Road and um see what kind of fits the site.

[20:23] » That's all I have for that. Happy to answer questions.

[20:26] » So my understanding uh if I understand this correctly, the option one doing a

[20:32] separate local overlay is kind of like a build your own zoning overlay.

[20:40] » Correct. >> Okay. So we can kind of customize it.

[20:42] That's the like customize overlay option. Okay. There's there's obviously

[20:47] some like standards and um you know we can't just make a Disneyland overlay

[20:54] district or something like it has to come with there has to be reason to it

[20:58] and um I forget what the exact language is but it's something like economically

[21:03] feasible and developmentally um viable but um yeah it would I'm

[21:12] almost positive that you know what we are looking to do with Stow Road. Um we

[21:18] can have a lot of flexibility at least with that first option, but the

[21:22] trade-off is obviously um you know doing an MBTA communities district or I

[21:27] believe the next two that we're going through um come with EOHLC support um

[21:32] and definitely with the first one we will get less and we will have to seek

[21:36] that out. Um [clears throat] but yeah, so if there's no further questions, I

[21:42] will continue with chapter 40, which was one of the options that uh came up. It's

[21:47] uh it's very new um and I believe that it was originally introduced in the 2022

[21:56] economic development package that was passed um I believe by the Healey

[22:01] administration. Um, and it's a starter home district,

[22:05] smaller price limited home ownership. Um, and

[22:10] I dug into this quite a bit last week and today. I I'm not certain that it's

[22:16] up and running yet. I'd be interested, Joe, if if you uh can contradict me on

[22:21] that. But, uh, from what I read, they are still getting paperwork and permits

[22:27] and applications finished because a lot of those deadlines were saying like June

[22:33] 2025 and July 2026, this this stuff will become available. So, it's a very very

[22:39] new program, but it might be it might be a really great fit. But, um, I'm not

[22:45] seeing your hand up, Joe. So, I'll take that as a a knower and I don't know, but

[22:50] um [snorts] >> yeah. So,

[22:52] » excuse me. >> Jim over here had a question.

[22:55] » Oh, yeah. >> What does EOHLC help me? Is that money?

[23:00] Is that assistance permitting? What What does that mean to the town?

[23:04] » Yeah, that's a great question. So, um the MBTA communities, uh like overlay

[23:10] district, the one we were just looking at, came with a lot of support from the

[23:13] EOHLC. um we got and unlocked grants that essentially gave uh I don't know

[23:21] the exact amount of hours but like x amount of hours of work and it was

[23:25] definitely in the in the over 100red possibly in the several hundreds hours

[23:31] of work that folks from our regional planning commission was helping us make

[23:37] these calculations and do the outreach and um ensure that we were eventually

[23:43] going to be compliant. So, they were actually doing a lot of the heavy

[23:46] lifting along with I can't really claim any claim I had any part in MBTA

[23:52] community since I only came on a year ago, but um with Alec, the director of

[23:57] land use and planning, he had um Aaron Cruz, he's a housing planner from the

[24:03] the state regional planning commission, and they unlocked those funds through uh

[24:09] the EOHLC. They essentially gave them funds. They said you get up to this many

[24:16] hours of support, direct support of this gentleman, Aaron Cruz from MAPC working

[24:21] directly on whatever we needed to ensure that um this became this came into

[24:28] fruition. Um as well as like if we were to do this

[24:32] again, we would have that option to continue to get support um be it through

[24:37] grants. But um EOHLC has administrators of the MBTA

[24:43] Communities Act. They have an administrator just on this chapter 40Y

[24:48] as well as just on this chapter 40R that we'll get to next. So, it's essentially

[24:53] just a person I can pick up the phone and call or email anytime and and

[25:00] they're expert at this and I can ask any any this that or the other question to

[25:05] have it answered on either starter homes on MBTA communities district or on the

[25:10] smart growth for 40R district. On top of that, there are requirements that the

[25:16] EOHLC um needs Boxboro to hit to get approval

[25:21] on these districts. And with that, that's why they'll have some incentive

[25:26] to continue to work with us and and kind of foster a relationship to make sure

[25:30] either this option, this option, or this option go through, but less so on this

[25:36] kind of custom option. We called it the custom local option. But um good, that's

[25:40] a great question. EOHLC support comes in many forms and um and it it especially

[25:48] comes through on these three middle options that are directly supported and

[25:54] um and kind of pushed by EOHLC. >> Thank you.

[26:00] » Um so, >> uh I have another question for the 40y.

[26:04] Were you able to find out more information about the um

[26:08] » sewage and water? But yeah, the sewage and water requirements.

[26:12] » Yes, I did find language that said there was nothing that restricted it.

[26:17] » Okay. So, it can be a private well and that's fine.

[26:20] » Yes, that's that that is what I found in the general language of the law that was

[26:26] passed. Um I I will send that to you, but

[26:30] essentially right after I I was looking that up. It sounds confusing at first

[26:36] and I read it a couple times over and it said um that it's not restricted by uh

[26:43] those those infrastructure needs. >> Yeah. Like I feel like this and like the

[26:49] more I've heard about it, the more I'm just like this really feels like a good

[26:52] fit because that seems to be what and we'll get to that information later, but

[26:55] that seems to be what people in Boxboro are asking more for is starter homes and

[26:59] this is a great way to make that happen. >> Yeah. I absolutely agree and it the the

[27:06] one of the one of the trade-offs maybe one of the cons is though we haven't

[27:10] seen this come to fruition because it's so new and um and we'd kind of be kind

[27:19] of treading our our own new steps. But it's it certainly seems like a really

[27:24] great program and from what I could find a lot of communities have been starting

[27:31] to do it. There's just no like I wanted to show a picture of where a 40y

[27:36] district was and what it looked like like I did on this next one. This is a

[27:40] 40R home, but I I simply couldn't because none of them have fully become

[27:46] built yet. And um it seems like within the next year or two, this is going to

[27:51] be a more accessible option and the in the state

[27:55] should kind of finally flush out the the final details of it. But as I said, this

[28:00] is very new. Um, and another, you know, as you can, I don't need to read this

[28:05] here, but it's ownership focused. Um, there are some bedroom requirements. Um,

[28:10] and they are also a cap at the the house got the house size. Um, but 1,800 fair

[28:20] 1,800 square ft is probably not kind of uh

[28:25] going to restrict us too much if we're talking about starter homes, especially

[28:29] the amount that we might be wanting to see on this 11 acre parcel.

[28:35] » But the fact that it's new is actually could be thought of as an advantage. It

[28:39] gives us a chance to mold it our way. >> Absolutely.

[28:44] that is there a density requirement of any kind associated with this?

[28:48] » Yes. So you're per can do buy right four homes per acre which fits really well I

[28:54] think with the property and the ideas that we had for it already because we

[28:58] were thinking already with what's been you know with the work that's been done

[29:01] on the property that you we're probably capped at about 10 or 12 units

[29:06] » right >> so that would be great then you can get

[29:08] I think >> I think I think there is there is a

[29:13] couple of drawbacks and one of them is that and you think you're prohibited

[29:18] from putting all your affordables in one district with 40 wide

[29:22] » and we would have to put all affordables on still road.

[29:27] » So I think there are some hookers. Is that true? I haven't

[29:31] » Well, I I >> I'm sorry I missed that.

[29:34] » I read the after your email, I took the time to read the 13 pages of the

[29:39] document and I think there are some problems with it.

[29:43] » I'm not you're not the first by whom the new is tried, right? But anyway, I don't

[29:47] mean to hold you up. I just I personally have reservations about 40.

[29:51] » I remember seeing something in the regulations about the affordable units

[29:56] have to be integrated with all the other units, but nothing about them being

[30:02] happen to be aligned along Stow Road. >> I don't I don't know if I

[30:05] » I don't remember that. >> Yeah, Channing, sorry. I just I want to

[30:09] write it down so I can I can look it up and hopefully respond tomorrow. What was

[30:13] your concern is is what with this exactly? They're all

[30:19] » Yeah. I don't know if I can find it right off the bat. I may have to send it

[30:22] to you, Ian, but >> No. Yeah, please do. I'd be Yeah, I'd be

[30:25] happy to look into it. This is the one that kind of This is the one that's

[30:28] newest to me. I didn't learn about it in school. I had to do my research over the

[30:33] past week or so and and learn as much as possible. And there's still plenty that

[30:38] I don't know.

[30:41] » Yeah. Joe, did you have a question on this? I know. I saw your hand up. It

[30:45] went down. >> I'm good, Ian. Thanks.

[30:49] » All right. All right. Let's keep going through this. So, 40R

[30:56] » 40R is a pretty wellestablished um reasonzoning overlay option. It's the

[31:03] smart growth district. Um the state has had this in place for oh, I want to say

[31:09] well over 20 years now. It's been uh you know, very successful in most areas. I'm

[31:14] sure there's probably been some uh pretty difficult areas to make it work

[31:18] within. Um but it is exactly what you would think of a multif family zoning in

[31:24] a smart growth area. Um usually it does prioritize uh ease of ease of access to

[31:31] like transportation. With that we might be able to swing the um you know the

[31:36] mart bus over there. I'm sure if we're if we're looking to make this a smart

[31:40] growth district, then um it certainly can stop over there just as it does some

[31:44] of our other housing housing um complexes in town. But that's not

[31:49] obviously not the only thing. Um there's a lot here with um with 40R and um just

[31:56] as with 40R and I should probably go back because it's very important to add

[32:01] with 40 Y there are financial incentives. I believe it's $3,000

[32:06] per unit. That comes back to us. Um, and I obviously need to learn more on that.

[32:14] It's not a crazy amount of money, but it's something it's at least something

[32:19] to look at. And I believe it's the exact same amount for a 40R district. Um

[32:24] there's also the 40s which is a program where we can kind of do this math to

[32:30] calculate how how much it burdens our school with new students and then we can

[32:36] get further tax um tax incentives or money back to our school system.

[32:43] Um but yeah, this is uh in going through our 40R districts uh in the state on the

[32:50] EOHLC's website, a lot of them are much higher density than what we would be

[32:57] looking at for Stow Road. Um which is kind of why I've put it down here. I'm

[33:02] not throwing it off the table. It's you guys's decision. Um there is a lot of

[33:07] red tape that comes with a 40R district um that we would have to figure out with

[33:15] the EOHLC to see if this is even a viable option for us. For example, um

[33:23] they always put, you know, must be close to public transit. After more review,

[33:28] you can find out that okay, maybe we don't need to be super close to public

[33:33] transit, but um with that, you know, we'll need to do XYZ and then ABC twice

[33:40] over or something. There's a lot that comes with this. Um and yeah, as you can

[33:45] see, plenty of state review. Um and let me think of what else. Yeah, so like

[33:52] I said, most of them are much larger scale. Think of like driving through

[33:57] Cambridge and you see a lot of five over ones. Um those are often associated with

[34:03] uh smart growth districts, very dense. Um and so oftent times a lot of the

[34:09] acreage was way above 11 acres like what we'll be working with. But it certainly

[34:15] does not rule this out. And certainly also not saying that we're going to have

[34:19] a 5 over1 um here in here in Boxboro. It's it's obviously what we do with it.

[34:25] It's how we take this um and mold the density requirements to meet the um 40R

[34:32] requirements within this district. Um I see hands up so I'm happy to answer

[34:37] them. >> What are the what are the difficulties

[34:41] associated with the first item under trade?

[34:47] » Yes, and that's a great question. And I think it's one of those I think it's

[34:52] exactly that it's a tradeoff where um this one the 40 wy they were not

[34:59] concerned about the waste water uh and the sewage being private. This one the

[35:05] smart growth um it's something that they're going to look into and they're

[35:10] probably going to not be very attracted by it. I know that doesn't directly

[35:15] answer your question, but um there are stricter requirements just across the

[35:20] board. Um with this having been put in place over 20 years ago, um most of

[35:26] these developments are in kind of larger cities um and even the smaller ones

[35:33] don't. So, let me um let me see if I have it in my notes here.

[35:55] Um just off the quick search alone, it just

[35:59] says that we will need to certify that like our existing

[36:06] infrastructure be it installed or f it will be installed in the future. can

[36:11] adequately handle the load um required for whatever we plan on building. So,

[36:18] it's going to present us with a pretty similar option that we're already

[36:22] exploring where we're like constricted by nitrogen loading or uh the well um

[36:29] how much the well is able to produce um the size of our septic. These the these

[36:35] are things that we're going to have to go through with whatever we develop. So

[36:40] going through them and and exploring those options through 40R doesn't seem

[36:45] like it's going to be a terribly challenging option. It seems like we'll

[36:49] need to do that anyway. Um but you know, this is something we would obviously

[36:53] explore before we get to the stage of like putting together draft language to

[36:59] make this 40R district. um we would have those meetings with EOHLC to make sure

[37:04] that um that the whatever we're proposing will work for all of their

[37:10] requirements um before anything is is kind of put together. But it looks like

[37:16] we're not restricted by private wastewater um and water conditions um

[37:22] the well in the in the septic. It just seems like they're going to need to

[37:26] check that um a lot more than they have for MBTA communities and it seems like

[37:32] more than they'll do for the starter homes district.

[37:41] » I feel like with our with the property we're dealing with 20 units being able

[37:46] to do 20 units per acre is just not going to be feasible for it at all.

[37:55] Yeah, it is it is it is definitely a bit high and higher certainly higher than

[38:00] the starter homes and our current MBTA communities uh overlay.

[38:13] There's a good chance that if you were to put these on a spectrum

[38:18] that this would be furthest to the the denser side of the spectrum.

[38:24] » Yeah, I think >> but obviously a lot of these provide

[38:27] flexibility and we could put them really anywhere on that spectrum. But judging

[38:33] by, you know, not to look into a crystal ball, but I wouldn't imagine that um

[38:41] that a lot of folks would want to see higher than 20 units per developable

[38:46] acre. >> I I rather think people wouldn't want to

[38:51] see anything like [clears throat] that anywhere near it.

[38:54] » Yeah. Um Okay. So

[38:59] » one just one question and and yeah just >> historically you guys looked at the

[39:03] wells and the septic and you had 12 to was it 14 to 20 units or was what unit

[39:09] something like that >> that's when you say units that's like

[39:12] beds right >> that's the whole thing

[39:13] » that's the whole thing >> that's the whole units it's it's a mixed

[39:17] I think that number was for a mix of two and threebedroom condos I forgot what

[39:23] the >> so that was that was units or bedrooms

[39:25] » units units Okay.

[39:29] » Right. Right. So something something like that is going to be like you're

[39:32] going to use 2 acres of the property and all the rest of the property is septic.

[39:37] Well, right. >> Yeah. Well, something else something

[39:40] else that might be an option is if we have extra land besides the building is

[39:44] having something like a community center of some sort, which would be something

[39:49] that you would want for a model if you were going for like a co-ousing

[39:52] community. And I feel like the starter the the 40 Y overlay district works

[39:57] really well for that sort of for for a really small co-housing community like

[40:02] that. >> What's number five?

[40:09] » Okay, friendly 40B. Great. Um so this is uh an option I'd say we're probably all

[40:15] a lot more familiar with. Um what 40B is um it's similar to 40R, similar to 40 Y.

[40:24] 40B is specifically about um affordable housing and every town in the state

[40:30] needs to meet their requirement threshold of having um 10 or more% of

[40:37] their units uh of housing in town over uh uh to be affordable. Sorry. And um

[40:45] what a friendly 40b is and sorry if it's below that 10% um a lot of uh affordable

[40:51] housing developers will often come in with plans um to build uh you know x

[40:57] amount of affordable houses even if it's just one or whatever um to come in with

[41:01] these plans to develop affordable housing. And the town is very, if you

[41:06] are below that 10%. The town is very limited in their ability to um restrict

[41:13] a 40B development um based on, you know, whatever they're asking for. Usually,

[41:21] it's a comprehensive permit through the ZBA that really handles the majority of

[41:26] it. A friendly 40B is often um brought to towns with over this 10% threshold.

[41:32] um like Boxboro, we are over that 10% threshold and um it's called the local

[41:38] initiative program and we would either seek out developers developers um

[41:43] through an RFP process and then these developers would come over and give us

[41:48] their their um you know their plan to develop a site and say we are going to

[41:55] go through the exact same process that uh we would go through with 40B if um

[42:01] you guys or below 10%. Um but it's a collaborative effort where the usually

[42:07] the select board signs some um something into uh like policy first where they

[42:14] allow this uh exploration and um process to happen um in collaboration with one

[42:21] another so that um it's not kind of a one-handed and one-sided approach that

[42:27] favors the developer but the town of Bossboro will also be able to have a lot

[42:32] of say and how this site's built out and developed. Um, rather than just a

[42:37] developer kind of coming in and saying, "This is what we would like to develop.

[42:42] We see you're under the 10% threshold. There's little you can do to stop or

[42:47] curb um what we're suggesting." a friendly 40B um invites affordable um

[42:54] developers to come build affordable units in Boxboro collaboratively between

[42:59] the ZBA um mostly the ZBA but obviously in this case with it being kind of the

[43:05] housing board's land it would be through the housing board as well um and then uh

[43:10] the zoning or the planning board as well as needed um and I'm sure that we would

[43:15] seek out their opinions and um advice as as we would go through a process like

[43:21] this. This is a very this is probably of all of these the most common practice,

[43:27] the most commonly done practice. Um I do not have historical knowledge on how

[43:34] many times this has been done in Boxboro. I don't believe it will be the

[43:37] first time, but this is done all across the state um every, you know, every day

[43:43] or several times a year. Um, it's it's one of our safer or safest options, I

[43:52] would say.

[43:57] » I have a question, >> please.

[44:00] » So, these are a bunch of different overlay districts. Is it is it would it

[44:05] make sense or is it a thing to combine overlay districts or would that be more

[44:11] of a kind of the build the zoning So, yeah, I will point out that this 40B is

[44:19] is technically not an overlay district. Um, it is it is a comprehensive permit

[44:26] from the ZBA that essentially waves the existing zoning there and permits um

[44:33] this comprehensive project to take place um you know,

[44:39] wherever wherever it is. But um sorry I got caught up on the overlay part. You

[44:46] said would it be worthwhile to explore combining some of these options?

[44:51] » Mhm. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean I can't speak to that too

[44:55] much. I'm not certain that uh it's really been done anywhere. Um, these the

[45:04] MBTA overlay and the 40R overlay are really the only ones that have been

[45:10] practiced and completed. Um, with, of course, as we know, the MBTA overlay is

[45:16] just a few years old. Um, I I'm sure that there are some overlap districts.

[45:22] Actually, I I know for a fact that in Middlear they um they put their MBTA

[45:28] overlay district and their 40R district um kind of on top of each other

[45:33] overlapping. Um so there are instances. However, it seems like uh I I'm just not

[45:41] sure how it would work for Boxboro. Um it I'm guessing it would probably be

[45:46] more work to combine some of these. Um and not going to kind of say that we

[45:54] can't do it. I just know that, you know, between Alec and myself. Um it would be

[46:00] probably a lot more to try to piece meal some of these together than to kind of

[46:05] just go for one and uh and focus on one alone. But it's certainly, you know,

[46:13] another option on the table that we can further explore if we like this part of

[46:18] that and this part of the other. But it also might be worthwhile if we like this

[46:22] p part of one and this part of the other to explore this custom local zoning

[46:27] overlay um that we would be able to kind of shape up ourselves. But

[46:33] » okay, I got one more. Yeah, Channing, I heard you.

[46:37] » Yeah. Uh I I I can wait or give this to you now, but I have the section of uh

[46:43] what is it? Uh 76069, whatever it is.

[46:48] » Yeah, it's MGL you're saying. It's in the text.

[46:51] » Oh, 760 CMR. It's the 40 Y. >> Gotcha.

[46:55] » Okay. >> 760 CMR. I just want to be able to

[46:59] reference this later. >> CMR 69.03.

[47:06] » Thanks. That's the section that'll work.

[47:12] » Okay. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you.

[47:13] » No worries. I appreciate it. And then this will be the last one. Um this is

[47:19] this would let me let me be frank. This would be uh these are all possible.

[47:26] They're not none of them are impossible. Um this one would definitely kind of be

[47:31] the the odd ball out. I'd say this is a

[47:35] zoning change. So if we go back and look at technically all of these are zoning

[47:40] changes. They change our zoning bylaw one way or another. But see this purple

[47:45] layer in the middle. This last option is the option to change our zoning, our

[47:51] base zoning. So we'll go back here. It's done in every town. You know, every town

[47:57] and city changes their zoning here and there every couple years. There was uh

[48:02] just this past Falltown meeting, there was a proposal to um to bring some of uh

[48:08] it was the business some of the industrial commercial district into the

[48:13] business or business one district. It didn't move forward, but um it it was on

[48:18] the table to begin with. Um I I'll be frank, I don't think that this is a very

[48:24] viable option for us to explore. um we don't have another district uh in our

[48:30] base zoning that is what we want to see at 72 Stow Road. So it could also mean

[48:38] making a new zoning district of which is not completely worth uh not worthwhile

[48:43] I'll say but it's um it it's it's just a bit we have other options

[48:52] that can bring us financial incentives. um or be a bit easier to accomplish. It

[48:58] seems like this would probably be one of the harder ones to accomplish. Um and we

[49:04] do have some legal I mean with all of them we have to

[49:10] follow the law but you know with this being one parcel um it can't be spot

[49:16] zoning of which there could certainly be plenty of appeals um to call this spot

[49:24] zoning which could of course take us to land court and um nobody none of us want

[49:29] that but uh yeah so we have the option to bring in Stow Road into another

[49:36] district already in our zoning map or create a new residential district, one

[49:40] in the shape that we want to see. Um, but I do believe that if we wanted to do

[49:44] the latter of those two options to create a new district, it would probably

[49:48] be easier to do so through an overlay district. Um, but I'd be happy to talk

[49:53] about that more with you. I'd be happy to talk about any of these options. I've

[49:57] been talking for almost 30, 40 minutes now. So, I am going to um let you guys

[50:02] continue to ask questions and uh yeah, that's pretty much it.

[50:09] » Thank you very much, Ian. That you know, you've done a lot.

[50:12] » No problem. I I hope that was comprehensive enough. I I do wish I had

[50:16] a little more time to to delve into them and um and learn as much as I could

[50:22] about them, but uh that that's kind of more or less highlevel knowledge about

[50:27] those. Um, it'd be good to kind of see which ones peique our interest and if

[50:31] there are any that we can outright say no to, we're not interested in. Um, that

[50:36] would that would be uh that'd probably be pretty worthwhile in the short term,

[50:41] but I will not speak for the board anymore. I'll let you guys discuss.

[50:47] » Oh, thank you. It was very good. >> Well, Channing has some uh charts that

[50:52] we could have discussion later in the meeting, I think.

[50:56] » Sure. Yeah. So we can talk talk about which of those things we'd like. So uh

[51:02] unless there's further questions about the presentation, we can move on to the

[51:08] um rest of the meeting. >> I had one question further question

[51:12] about 40y. Um I think one of the things that I don't necessarily like about it

[51:17] is that it's >> entirely focused on ownership. I know a

[51:21] lot of people aren't asking for rentals, but the reality is that people who are

[51:26] low income and and require and and in need of affordable housing often can't

[51:32] meet the requirements for that and need to rent for a while before they can

[51:36] actually get that um like move toward, you know, ownership. So, they have to

[51:43] rent for a while anyway. Um, I don't necessarily want to see super dense

[51:48] rentals, but making a starter homes district where there are a few options

[51:54] for rentals or rental is an option for the affordable units. Um, I think would

[52:00] be really great. I just don't know if that's really included in the 40 because

[52:04] the main focus is on >> Yeah. Which again, people who need an

[52:10] affordable unit, like if you if you want to get into a 40b and you have a bunch

[52:17] of student, you know, a student loan debt, you might not be able to get

[52:21] approved for a mortgage, which is one of the like first things you have to do to

[52:25] be able to get in that. >> I I can afford factor a little bit to

[52:28] affordability, Ian, later on, and you're going to add to it if you wish. You and

[52:34] I talked about that earlier today. >> Yeah. Yep.

[52:38] No, but um yeah, Channing had a I mean it does relate to that, but um I I

[52:45] certainly understand it's a frustration and it's a drawback of going that route.

[52:50] What could be a very attractive um option to take the state

[52:56] zoning route. Um that's definitely a restriction that I see. Um

[53:03] yeah, Joe, I see you have your hand up.

[53:08] I may >> Yeah, real quick. I just want to see um

[53:13] I don't know if you have time to do this, Ian, or if you're able to do this,

[53:16] but it'd be cool to see these in kind of a chart, maybe like on a landscape p so

[53:23] we can see density for each option, >> what's involved in each. I don't know if

[53:27] you could do that quick. Um I don't even know if I can even ask you to do that.

[53:30] It's just something that would be helpful for us to process, I think.

[53:33] » Yeah. Yeah, like I just wanted to >> I got of like densest to least dense

[53:38] versus like >> Yeah, just like a homeownership versus

[53:41] most renter. Yeah, I I like that. I should I I'll add that in advance of our

[53:47] next meeting and I'll send it around. >> Yeah. And then one thing I just wanted

[53:51] to clarify. I heard the question earlier like what is EOHLC? Um I want to just

[53:56] people make sure it's um it's not the state housing finance agency but it's

[54:00] it's the state housing administrator. So it used to be department of housing and

[54:05] community development. It runs a number of programs home CDBG. Um it runs the

[54:11] local 40B housing what now they just changed the name to executive office of

[54:17] housing and livable communities. uh which just is another difficult acronym

[54:24] » in our line of work.

[54:35] » Okay. >> Thanks again.

[54:37] » No problem. >> We can move on with the rest of the

[54:41] meeting. So Wendy, could you put Yes, sir. and go down to after the

[54:46] presentation.

[54:50] Keep going.

[54:54] Keep going.

[55:01] Oh, that's it. I don't know. We need we need to go

[55:05] through this in detail, but there is another issue that we need to resolve.

[55:10] probably it's not a problem but in fact there are constraints associated with

[55:15] the land and with the account really that the money that we would use is it

[55:24] the affordable housing trust and the restrictions are that it'd be

[55:29] affordable to low and moderate income housing

[55:33] no numbers just that uh it's non-specific [clears throat]

[55:40] Well, early on, you know, a long time ago, we had that discussion in the

[55:47] SRCDC. What does this actually mean? What what does it allow us to do? So, we

[55:55] uh asked K&P for guidance and their letter is included in a packet that I

[56:02] sent you. Their answer was that it's okay. All the units don't have to be

[56:09] affordable, which you you might suppose it can be a friendly 40b,

[56:16] which is what I we ended up proposing. one thing and but but I think one thing

[56:24] that we need to worry about and perhaps seek another opinion about is exactly

[56:30] what does constitute uh conforming to all these requirements.

[56:37] Would a 40 wide development uh with 10% home of the homes affordable

[56:46] comply? that question as far as I know has not been answered uh at least to us

[56:52] by K&P. So I just wanted to include that as one of the things that we have to

[56:57] worry about is that you know we have to make sure that what we do is legal and

[57:04] legally complies with the constraints of the affordable housing trust and and the

[57:10] land itself. And the stuff I sent out to you goes

[57:14] into a lot more detail than that. So that's all I wanted to say about that

[57:18] unless there are questions. Yeah, I have a question. Al the the letter from KMP

[57:24] from Jean and so forth is [clears throat] now 13 years old.

[57:29] You think that's at some point worth worth uh checking with them to see if

[57:35] it's still viable? >> It might be, but I think I think we're

[57:40] going to have to check with them to see if if we go the 40 40 Y route. I think

[57:46] we'll have to check with them to see if that's legal.

[57:49] » Yeah, >> cuz that's different than a friendly

[57:51] 40B. >> Well, and 40.

[57:57] » Sorry. Since the friendly 40B isn't an overlay district,

[58:01] » conceivably it could be a friendly 40B with the 40 Y as an overlay district.

[58:07] » Correct, Ian? Potentially this would all be questions

[58:12] for EOHLC, but I also would question is, you know, does one not restrict the

[58:20] other by uh what it requires? But yeah, I'd be I'm not sure. Well, I don't think

[58:26] 40 Y is limited to 10% affordable units. You can have more than 10%. So,

[58:33] » we could have 25% >> 100% if we could figure out how to do

[58:37] it. >> But the more affordable units are, the

[58:40] less attractive it becomes to developers. I mean, these are tradeoffs

[58:44] you would have to think about. >> Just that's why that's why I'm like,

[58:47] just talk to the people who want the housing, [laughter]

[58:50] » right? But all I'm saying that this is an issue

[58:54] that we're going to have to worry about. [clears throat] Great.

[58:59] » Is it any other questions? >> Just real quick, Al. Um,

[59:05] » yeah. to the point that the letter's a little dated. If we do ask for an

[59:09] update, um, could we ask the attorneys to analyze

[59:18] their update against the options that Ian presented and that would help us uh,

[59:24] not so much with the nuanced questions um, in terms of could we do a hybrid

[59:29] overlay and whatnot, but could we just ask the attorneys, hey, we want to make

[59:33] sure we're going to meet um the agreement and the and the

[59:38] affordability um clause in the contract uh the local contracts, you know, could

[59:44] you update your memo uh for our purposes? And oh, by the way, could you

[59:49] look at these options that we're considering 40 Y 40R friendly 40B?

[59:56] » Exactly. That's what I think we're going to have to do. Well, like I my opinion

[1:00:00] is that before we do that, we need to clarify our thinking as best we can

[1:00:05] about exactly how we'd like to implement these various options cuz the more my

[1:00:12] experience with all lawyers, probably K& K&P in particular, is the more precisely

[1:00:18] and you can ask the question, the better guidance you'll get. So, I think I think

[1:00:24] it's that's exactly what we should do. Joe, I agree.

[1:00:30] When the time comes, you know, when the time comes, but I think we need to, if

[1:00:33] we can, I think we need to clarify our thinking on exactly what we would want

[1:00:39] under those various options uh before we seek that guidance. But I think we

[1:00:44] should. Yeah, I agree.

[1:00:49] Thank you. Okay. What do we got here?

[1:00:54] Okay. Uh, moving on to the housing production

[1:00:59] plan. How are we doing there? Um, Ian,

[1:01:04] » good. We um I'll I'll you know, really a few updates, but it'll be good to kind

[1:01:11] of talk about what we what we want to do for this next month. Um,

[1:01:17] we haven't yet heard back from the Oh goodness, I don't even know which

[1:01:23] department it is. And it might be several, but in March, we applied for a

[1:01:28] grant through the Eco1top. Um, which is different than the kind of grant portal

[1:01:33] that we applied for this housing production plan grant with, but we did

[1:01:38] that in June. So, for the the open space plan, we applied to that in March. Like

[1:01:43] I said, we still have yet to hear back. And they they say that they're going to

[1:01:49] um let us know in June, which um is very on on par with how they normally roll

[1:01:57] out these these grants and their announcements. So, we do look forward to

[1:02:01] hearing back from them on the open space one very soon. But this would probably

[1:02:07] push the announcement of whether or not we received this state grant for the

[1:02:13] housing production plan. Um I believe the original month that they said was

[1:02:18] September following the June application. So I wouldn't expect it

[1:02:22] until at least November is probably more realistic by how they're moving, but who

[1:02:28] knows? So that's the update on kind of where the grand state the the the grant

[1:02:33] is. Um, regardless, I think the plan has been and has always been to continue

[1:02:39] moving forward with this, anticipating that we receive that and um and only

[1:02:44] readjusting once we receive um the hopefully good news um on that later

[1:02:50] this year. Uh we do have a housing production forum planned for our next

[1:02:56] August meeting. I would like to spend a little time just openly talking about

[1:03:00] that. Al, I'd hope uh you and maybe if any of the additional board members

[1:03:07] would like to put some time and energy towards that in the next month, um then

[1:03:12] I think that's definitely worthwhile. Uh I do want to kind of emphasize that the

[1:03:19] way I see this next month's meeting going is about housing production. And I

[1:03:25] think Stow Road should have a part in that. But I want to make sure that we um

[1:03:32] that we don't focus entirely on Strow Road. Um or if we would like we can have

[1:03:38] an additional meeting sometime in September or August um where we do focus

[1:03:43] on Strow Road. Um but for right now, I believe the current plan we have was to

[1:03:49] um make up an agenda on some topics and items that we wanted to discuss. um a

[1:03:56] lot of which surrounding the visioning exercise that we did at um Feifers Day

[1:04:01] and uh at one of the town hall town meeting events. Um talk broadly about

[1:04:07] those. um try to invite some potentially invite some committee representatives

[1:04:13] from the EDC, the planning board, the select board, the zoning board of appe

[1:04:18] appeals um and such as well as of course the open public and try to receive as

[1:04:24] much feedback as possible um from folks. But that's a pretty high level

[1:04:30] look at it. I'd be happy to answer any questions or openly discuss this. Um,

[1:04:40] » well, right now it sounds like what we need to do is convene a small group to

[1:04:46] uh put together what we need to do at the the hearing, the meeting.

[1:04:50] » Yeah. >> Anybody interested?

[1:04:55] » When's the meeting? >> Or

[1:04:57] » August 25th, I believe. Is that our next scheduled meeting normally?

[1:05:02] » Oh, right, right, right. That's what we're doing. I remember now.

[1:05:10] » Yeah.

[1:05:14] » Any other any other Oh, Channon. Oh my goodness. Shannon raised his hand. Hey,

[1:05:20] I'm in all the way on this. >> Okay,

[1:05:24] » thank you. I I don't hear anyone else, so I'll assume it's you two folks for

[1:05:30] now. But um with that, I don't I'm not sure we'll need to post anything or

[1:05:35] create a working group or anything. We can we should be able to meet

[1:05:38] informally. Um and I'll double check the the requirements for that, but we should

[1:05:43] be good on that. Um great. Okay. So, we can begin putting some stuff together um

[1:05:49] on that. And uh yeah uh we'll also invite invite um

[1:05:56] individual members of the board if they have any opinions or ideas of things

[1:06:01] that we should be doing um then they can reach out to me not the board as I would

[1:06:08] be discussing in violating open meeting law. But um if you do have any ideas

[1:06:13] that you'd like us to bring and set up for uh next month's housing forum then

[1:06:18] please let me know. um and I will bring them to Al and Channing as we work on

[1:06:23] this. But I think it should be a good opportunity um to focus on,

[1:06:29] you know, the needs broader of the uh the the town. Hopefully get some some

[1:06:35] input. I think what you just said is

[1:06:40] uh you would you would like and it's really good idea for any housing board

[1:06:44] member even if you're not on this plan group to send u suggestions of what

[1:06:51] should be included and how to go about it

[1:06:54] » to you and Channing and we can talk about it when we get together and

[1:07:00] that right >> it could also be a great time to show

[1:07:02] off our dreamhouse quilt that fit in and Britney

[1:07:07] did so good. Um did a great job at putting together or getting getting

[1:07:14] folks to buy into that.

[1:07:18] » Okay. >> Okay.

[1:07:22] » So, we'll be informed Al, you

[1:07:27] and myself will be informed as to what our next step is.

[1:07:33] » Yeah. Let's let's uh let me just look at my calendar. Probably next week would

[1:07:38] probably Yep. very very open next week. So um yeah, maybe sometime next week um

[1:07:47] to meet and discuss some of the options um to uh to present and and talk about

[1:07:55] and discuss there. But also within that time, within that

[1:08:01] time, I'll try to put together some promotional material as well that we can

[1:08:06] get to Wendy to send out, that we can get to the board to send out, and that

[1:08:10] I'll get to um town administrator, town clerk, and make sure that it's um as as

[1:08:17] publicly available as possible, get as many voices as possible. It will be

[1:08:22] hybrid. I will be in person this time for that. Um,

[1:08:27] but yeah, we should I' I'd hope that we have several folks attend. And while

[1:08:33] we're still on it, um, and I mentioned it briefly, but I didn't get any

[1:08:37] confirmation earlier, maybe last month or the month before, we talked about,

[1:08:44] um, we talked about inviting committees. Did

[1:08:49] we want is it good if I start reaching out to

[1:08:54] said committees and inviting a representative for them to to join and

[1:08:57] be a part of this discussion or is that something that we'd like to push further

[1:09:02] out focus on just residents for this next one and um have a future meeting to

[1:09:09] discuss um with with board and community representatives.

[1:09:15] I think residence is what we want to focus on at this stage.

[1:09:20] » I think that's right too. I mean I mean one thing that might happen if we get a

[1:09:26] whole bunch of committee people we have all these committee people and maybe one

[1:09:29] or two residents I think they might >> that's

[1:09:36] no that's a great point. [clears throat]

[1:09:40] » Yeah I think is up first. Yeah. My fear is that we don't get

[1:09:48] enough residents and then we're but we don't have to

[1:09:54] we'll be hopeful and we'll do our outreach.

[1:09:58] » We should have goodies or refreshments or something.

[1:10:01] » Yeah. Offer some refreshments. >> I'll look into that. Yeah, we can

[1:10:04] definitely get some refreshments. >> We can do that.

[1:10:09] » All right. Very good.

[1:10:12] and the whole program. I'm not sure there's anything going there. Uh

[1:10:17] anything, Wendy?

[1:10:20] » The only thing there hasn't been any new applications, but I got the last um

[1:10:27] just today. I got the last invoice of number four application. So, we've given

[1:10:34] out, you know, almost the $8,000. This was for um gutters to prevent ice

[1:10:41] dams. So,

[1:10:43] » yeah. >> Okay.

[1:10:44] » So, I have not received any new applications since probably April.

[1:10:50] » When did we originally send out the information about the program?

[1:10:54] » I think it was the very end of December, >> right?

[1:10:58] » And I got, you know, I got two or three right away, then another one, then then

[1:11:02] that one. >> Yeah. I think it would be a good thing

[1:11:05] to do during the summertime to, you know, do a blast and remind people of

[1:11:10] the program. And that's >> that's not my that's not my

[1:11:14] » that's not my position. Yeah, >> that's that's not something that I do.

[1:11:18] That's a housing board thing. >> Oh, okay. So we should do that again

[1:11:23] then is put that notice out that you know hey this is on a rotating basis if

[1:11:28] you need anything because then if anybody needs to do any kind of

[1:11:32] maintenance work in preparation for the upcoming seasons

[1:11:37] » maybe we should uh give oursel maybe we should discuss that next

[1:11:42] um meeting >> it probably depends on what there's a

[1:11:46] budgetary question too I mean you know how much money should we allocate things

[1:11:51] like that. >> So like let's put that on the agenda for

[1:11:55] the next meeting whenever. >> So Al, you're saying a a budgetary

[1:11:59] thing, but I mean all the 20 people are or whatever are allocated the 2K. So

[1:12:08] um I mean there's still there wasn't a time limit to it, was there? I mean

[1:12:16] » Yeah, you're right. >> Yeah. there's money that's still

[1:12:21] available. It might be worth it to remind people of the program since it's

[1:12:25] like more than six months later, >> right?

[1:12:27] » Um >> I think I think

[1:12:30] » springing and stuff, they might be newly aware of things that they weren't aware

[1:12:33] of, you know, in December when they first got notified.

[1:12:37] » Well, let's put it on the agenda for next

[1:12:40] » next week. All right. And the rental assistance

[1:12:45] program. Yeah, there was something I wanted to ask and now I can't remember.

[1:12:51] Um, but it's still we still have a waiting list. Um, we're still,

[1:12:58] you know, vetting people that are in the program.

[1:13:03] Uh, I think there's 15 people right now. So, we keep on plugging away. And I

[1:13:10] can't believe I forgot. It's been very, very, very, very busy this summer. And

[1:13:15] so I can't remember exactly what that question was.

[1:13:22] » Okay. Well, >> if you think of it later.

[1:13:25] » Yeah, I will. >> Come back. We'll come back around to it.

[1:13:27] » Okay. >> Okay. Well, the next part of the

[1:13:31] meeting, I think I will let Channing have before. Channing, if you could go

[1:13:35] down the the stack, there's a couple of visuals Channing might want to use uh in

[1:13:44] his talk. >> Is it this?

[1:13:48] » Well, I I don't see anything a little pardon.

[1:13:53] » What? >> I just don't know what you want me to

[1:13:57] show. Do you want me to show something? >> Go back to the Go back to the deck.

[1:14:01] Original deck. go back to El's El's email

[1:14:06] » the deck you were showing the the the the

[1:14:09] collection of slides that you were showing.

[1:14:12] » Okay. So, not the packet. >> Go back to the packet.

[1:14:16] » Oh, I was just in the packet. Hold on. >> I believe it's the last pages on the

[1:14:21] packet. >> The last pages on the packet.

[1:14:26] Oh, okay. I just have to share it again. Is that what happened? I stopped

[1:14:30] sharing. All right, hold on. >> I got it.

[1:14:39] » Okay, >> do you want the other one too, Channing?

[1:14:44] » I think it's probably more before the one right after.

[1:14:48] » I got it. This one?

[1:14:51] » Yeah, that's fine. Thank you. >> Okay,

[1:14:55] yeah, Ian, do you want to make any comments at all about that as we spoke

[1:15:00] earlier? Yeah, I'll I'll give the highlevel uh detail on it. So, we had

[1:15:05] this we had this um this poster at two town events. The

[1:15:12] first one was a town meeting info session. Um and I don't believe it was

[1:15:17] for annual town meeting. I believe it was for a special town meeting. So, that

[1:15:21] would have been in March. Um, and with that, I did not remove the suggestions

[1:15:27] or the dots, but I brought them back to Feifer's Day. And, uh,

[1:15:32] in my short count, I believe we had about 19 or so at the first event that

[1:15:41] we did. And then at the end of Fifer's Day, we had a total of 89 entries. Um,

[1:15:48] so that would make about what is that 60 or 70 people um who came by at Fifer's

[1:15:56] Day to give their opinions on this. Um, there are some sticky notes that were

[1:16:02] put on there of priorities and options for housing that were not originally put

[1:16:07] on there. Um and what you one of the struggles you know you get with this as

[1:16:15] a statistician looking at that is well okay this option in the sticky note was

[1:16:20] not presented to everybody at the same exact time. It wasn't there at the

[1:16:25] beginning but rather somebody put that in halfway through or towards the tail

[1:16:29] end. And so, um, yeah, that's, uh, that's pretty much the high level and

[1:16:34] the technical of it, but, um, I was very happy when Channing asked for that data.

[1:16:39] Um, and, uh, was able to kind of make this this thing we see next. Um but

[1:16:45] essentially you you obviously see them ranked here um from starter homes to

[1:16:51] affordable housing to middle income all being really really high priorities for

[1:16:55] the residents of Boxboro who responded to this visioning poster. Um so yeah

[1:17:01] that's all I'll say. I'll pass it back to Channy.

[1:17:05] One question. Is it at all legitimate to combine the starter homes and middle

[1:17:11] income housing homes categories?

[1:17:16] » It's not in my opinion, I don't think that's uh unheard of. I do think that I

[1:17:23] think it could go either way. I think you could staunchly defend that starter

[1:17:27] homes are separate than middle inome housing um and should be treated as

[1:17:32] such. But um I also definitely understand that there are a lot of

[1:17:36] similarities between starter homes and middle-income housing. As we've seen the

[1:17:40] housing market kind of change, especially over the past 10 years, those

[1:17:43] two things kind of blend together where now a lot of younger middle inome people

[1:17:49] per se um yep have a very hard time of attaining um any regular house and then

[1:17:57] would hence need starter homes. So um it could go either way. I

[1:18:02] » that's my that's my look at it. But >> I I forget that board, but was the

[1:18:06] nature of it such that a a a cert a given person could vote for both starter

[1:18:13] homes and middle and income housing. >> Mhm.

[1:18:17] » Um they were told to put they were told to put one on. Um I'm not sure how it

[1:18:23] went at Fifer's Day, but Finn was there. So, Finn, I'm not sure if if it if you

[1:18:29] had people putting a couple on. We weren't super strict about it. Um, we

[1:18:33] weren't going to peel stickers off, but >> I think uh um I wasn't paying too close

[1:18:41] of attention. I think uh Britney might have been more alert to that.

[1:18:46] » She's not the the question is what is your number

[1:18:51] one housing priority? So, I would hope that would

[1:18:56] sway folks to just vote for one as well. But

[1:18:58] » I do I do remember the wheelchair accessibility one was actually from a

[1:19:03] family that had, you know, the child with them that was, you know, in a

[1:19:09] wheelchair at the event. Um, and they said they were in uh a unit in um

[1:19:18] uh Beaver Beaver Brook. Is that the one that I'm thinking of? The one that's a

[1:19:23] portable or something? I I I [clears throat] can't remember

[1:19:28] exactly. >> Otman Hill or Swanson River?

[1:19:32] » No, no, not Cotman Hill. No, >> Brook Village. Brook Village or Bridge.

[1:19:36] » Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. I I tried to account for by by including

[1:19:44] what would have been obvious multiple selections uh on that list. In other

[1:19:50] words, uh climate appropriate materials. Well, let's say that would be across the

[1:19:57] board. Okay? I mean, what else would it be? You know, you're not going to

[1:20:01] separate those out. Work wheelchair accessible. That's going to apply to

[1:20:05] everything and so forth. So I tried to account for that through an adjustment

[1:20:09] and the list came out pretty much the way it is anyway. Uh which I then

[1:20:14] extracted onto this grid here which maybe I can talk through now but there

[1:20:20] are more questions go ahead but for explanatory

[1:20:24] note to that.

[1:20:29] Okay. Okay.

[1:20:34] Does everybody have a copy of it? you. I've got one here if you need one.

[1:20:42] » I I didn't send one to you. >> Other words, I' I'd like to Okay, we'll

[1:20:47] leave it there. Leave leave that then. I Let me make a couple of preface uh um

[1:20:53] let me preface this when the preface is probably going to be longer than the

[1:20:58] comments. Okay guys, um in an effort to deal [clears throat]

[1:21:04] with the results of the survey and also to remove some of the

[1:21:12] kaleidoscopic elements of this whole puzzle that we're faced with. I

[1:21:19] took the most frequent uh frequently mentioned categories and

[1:21:24] tried to apply some decision criteria to them.

[1:21:30] Um before I get to the decision criteria,

[1:21:34] let me say as to the categories and starting from the top

[1:21:40] uh starter homes. Okay, that was the at 19 that was the largest and most

[1:21:45] frequently mentioned category. affordable,

[1:21:49] then middle inome housing, then more rental, but rental is is a move issue

[1:21:56] now because Actton Housing Authority has told me they're not interested in

[1:22:00] building anything now. And we are not equipped to manage any rental properties

[1:22:06] on that or any other land. So, I'm afraid of rentals unless somebody knows

[1:22:11] more than I do out the window. and housing for seniors uh is number

[1:22:17] eight and co-op and commun community uh res residential property is number five.

[1:22:25] So um that's kind of at the tag end of it. So uh that's how I rank them and

[1:22:32] then I try to apply these decision criteria but the I also put 40 Y in here

[1:22:38] but I I am not predisposed to 40 Y. So you'll have to override my my decision

[1:22:44] on that one. >> Okay. But what I would like to talk to

[1:22:48] primarily at this point is starter homes and that is where the lowincome people

[1:22:58] are also the neediest people and that is where Boxboro has its share of them even

[1:23:04] though we have to put this up for lottery.

[1:23:07] But I do I think have a thought to introduce here and that is instead of

[1:23:15] giving up the land on Stow Road either giving it up to Habitat for example or

[1:23:22] selling it to a developer. We don't do either. We create a land

[1:23:28] lease and we keep the land.

[1:23:33] Now the advantages of that as I see it are that the value of the land comes out

[1:23:40] of the selling price of the residents. So the only thing that's being purchased

[1:23:46] is the structure. Now this is something that's quite prevalent in Maryland. It's

[1:23:51] not a new thing. And the advantage to the purchaser is they don't have to pay

[1:23:58] for the land and they don't have to pay a tax on the land.

[1:24:03] Okay. [clears throat] And we don't pay a tax on the land because the housing is

[1:24:07] not a buy. So we're going to pay taxes. >> Yeah.

[1:24:11] » So the town just misses out on the revenue of those builders.

[1:24:14] » Well, the town isn't going to be spending an awful lot of money on it

[1:24:18] anyway. I don't >> Well, but but years from now, they're

[1:24:21] going to miss their revenue pion.

[1:24:26] So >> Okay. So that's that would lower the

[1:24:29] price uh by $160,000 an acre. Okay.

[1:24:35] So if you put one house on that acre, the price comes down by $160,000 bucks.

[1:24:41] If you put two houses on that acre comes down by $80,000 and so on and so forth

[1:24:47] depending on how many units put on the acre, which is why zoning comes into the

[1:24:52] issue, I think. But the advantage is you really lower the price of a starter home

[1:25:00] down to where people who really don't have a lot of money presumably can

[1:25:04] afford it. Now, pricing price points, price points for middle inome people,

[1:25:10] all of that has to be worked through, but I think the concept is sound. And

[1:25:16] I've taken the liberty of talking to Stephanie Peterson at Metro West to see

[1:25:21] if she has any insight. She's researching it. I spoke to Ian this

[1:25:26] afternoon. Ian's thinking about it, too. I don't believe there's any prohibition

[1:25:31] in Massachusetts about doing something like that. Although, if we chose to

[1:25:36] pursue it, we would have to have a legal opinion on it. But I think it does lower

[1:25:41] the price of an affordable unit to a really manageable level for somebody

[1:25:47] somewhere on the AMI spectrum or continuum household of two. Now I would

[1:25:54] be would not be overly mortgage burdened uh at $170,000 house. Maybe you might

[1:26:01] even be able to do better with reframe housing, modular housing on there

[1:26:06] somehow or some other technique. I I don't know. But uh that's where my

[1:26:11] starting point is. And I think I'm just sort of taking the liberty

[1:26:16] and taking the liberty of advocating for it now or jumping the dot maybe. I don't

[1:26:20] know. But that's where I'm coming from. >> Who would we lease it to?

[1:26:25] » We're going to lease it to anybody. It's it's they they just get the right

[1:26:30] to to have the house on it. >> Yeah. So the homeowners would own the

[1:26:35] houses but the town would maintain ownership of the land is my

[1:26:39] understanding there. >> Now depending on what the economics of

[1:26:44] the whole thing turn out to be we could say that yeah there will be a lease

[1:26:50] amount of some a lease of some amount. What that amount might be could be zero

[1:26:56] or it could be some very small amount that would help pay for preservation

[1:27:01] syncing fund. We know what those are about. Or it could be something that

[1:27:05] would help fund BAP. So my question about the land lease is if we went that

[1:27:12] route and we put you know a a septic and you know a well on the property does

[1:27:20] that then mean that the town of Boxboro is responsible for maintaining those?

[1:27:25] » That's a very good point. Maybe >> yeah so there would have I feel like

[1:27:29] there would have to be some amount paid >> to the lease to make sure that that m

[1:27:34] that we're able to continue funding the maintenance. It probably would have to

[1:27:37] be something. Yeah, >> but I think the thrust of it is to get

[1:27:41] the price of the house the housing down. >> Yeah, I I think and I think I've also I

[1:27:47] think I've also heard about this. I think that was one of the one of the

[1:27:51] groups in the housing leadership academy out in Western Mass was doing something

[1:27:56] something similar as a as a you know >> community housing trust. And we we have

[1:28:02] the affordable housing trust. I don't know if that's somehow different than

[1:28:06] that, but I think I think the land lease is is kind of part of what they were

[1:28:12] talking about. I don't know much about it though.

[1:28:13] » This is Did I understand you say that somebody's actually doing this?

[1:28:18] » I if I remember correctly, I think so. I I'm getting a ton of information at this

[1:28:22] housing leadership academy and I'm only absorbing a percentage of it. [laughter]

[1:28:27] » That would be very useful. you want to track down who if somebody's doing it to

[1:28:31] see how >> it's doable as a it's a community land

[1:28:35] trust a CLT and um housing trusts are able to do that just exactly how

[1:28:42] Channing described >> Yeah. Yeah. My my main question would be

[1:28:46] would the town be responsible for the the septic and the well maintenance and

[1:28:52] if so you know what would that cost be to the town and then

[1:28:57] » that could go into the price of the house too actually the lease hold

[1:29:02] some way to look at it >> so that's a good that's a good point

[1:29:06] question >> yeah sure

[1:29:07] » I I kind of assume in this that the town would kind of donate the land at cost

[1:29:14] or at no cost. So if that was the case when they're building there is no and

[1:29:19] and the the homeowner is assuming the mortgage he is paying the mortgage for

[1:29:24] the value of the property that gets built.

[1:29:26] » The structure is only the >> only the structure,

[1:29:29] » right? But then I guess again my my problem is is I think you can go to town

[1:29:34] and say we're going to build 12 houses on this set are great but we're not

[1:29:40] going to get any tax to support the schools or anything out of that. I just

[1:29:45] think you're dead town me I don't see how how that could ever pass the town

[1:29:49] need >> to [clears throat] be honest

[1:29:52] » if it's all affordable units though. So I it doesn't I guess the point I'm

[1:29:57] making is yeah I mean it's affordable or not the town's going to I mean those

[1:30:02] people who move in those units are going to have kids that are in schools. How

[1:30:06] are they not how is the town how come they don't have to pay taxes to

[1:30:11] send their kids to school when when I do.

[1:30:14] » Why would they not have to pay they'd have to pay taxes on property tax?

[1:30:18] » They pay taxes on the structure. >> They would that's right. They would pay

[1:30:20] the property. >> So they're going to be paying some tax.

[1:30:23] » Yeah. They're going to pay property tax. Right. They're going to own the land.

[1:30:25] They're going to pay property. The answer the answer to that one is those

[1:30:29] kids are marginal. They're going to pay it anyway. They write out on the margin.

[1:30:33] You know, you got fixed costs there. These are just variables are making

[1:30:36] difference. Don't worry. >> Yeah. Yeah. Right.

[1:30:40] » Okay. You you can apply that. >> You can try it with that. Well, anyway,

[1:30:44] you're thinking outside the box here. So, that's that's my story. I'm going to

[1:30:47] stick to it. The other part of it is that at least you try to find we try to

[1:30:52] find out what the what the decision criteria are and see what approach is

[1:30:58] going to work with them or won't work with them and so forth. So this was an

[1:31:02] attempt to try to at least get on paper what what for these various choices that

[1:31:08] were or pre preferences that were selected you know what are the various

[1:31:14] elements that they have to satisfy in order to fly and [clears throat] that's

[1:31:18] that's really what I was trying to do uh whether I succeeded I guess up to the

[1:31:24] board's deliberation but if these criteria don't work I'm sure there are

[1:31:28] others that would would be useful instead stead. But my main selling point

[1:31:34] here is to get a reasonable number of lowcost affordable houses on Stow Road

[1:31:41] that Stow Road lot and a ground lease would be one way to at least get a good

[1:31:48] step on it, I think. And it doesn't mean we couldn't charge them something. I

[1:31:51] think >> it just would be unus as an assessor of

[1:31:57] one of the board of assessors there. Yeah. So unless the town owns the

[1:32:02] land somehow, I mean, they're going to just look at the land say this is the

[1:32:05] value. The taxes are based on the value of the property land. If they own the

[1:32:09] land, they don't own the land, then that's Yeah, that's true.

[1:32:12] » Well, you know, they don't get any tax on the land. That's again, I think

[1:32:15] that'll just be a child since the accounts,

[1:32:20] you know, the accounting department. >> I I I will say I do like this. I mean,

[1:32:27] to me, it's it seems like to me that not being on the planning board is that

[1:32:34] planning board needs to kind of come up with a vision for what they want that

[1:32:39] property to look like. And I mean, I think what Jan's describing is that if

[1:32:43] it's a property that has eight or 10 or 12 individual homes

[1:32:51] that some are starter homes, they're they're all affordable. Some of them are

[1:32:57] have access are built with accessibility for seniors. I think that's a that's a

[1:33:02] nice vision that seems that would work work well for the town and I think you

[1:33:08] could you it would sell at the town. >> Well, you know, there's a question too

[1:33:12] of availability not as well as affordability. I mean the

[1:33:19] plain fact is that starter homes are not very available in box.

[1:33:24] So even having a starter home that would not be designed to be affordable, I

[1:33:32] think would be a benefit to Boxboro because we don't have many of them. It's

[1:33:37] fairly impossible to find one. >> Mhm.

[1:33:40] » They've got to be affordable now. >> No. Uh I think some fraction of them

[1:33:45] have to be affordable. there is I think a bet like kind of a

[1:33:50] social benefit to this to the property having mixed income. Um because

[1:33:59] I like if you if it's all like 100% you know low income or affordable um that

[1:34:11] like keeps you more socially isolated when you have a more when you have like

[1:34:15] mixed income and you have people of different income levels all interacting

[1:34:19] in you know in in a community. I think you get the most benefit out of that.

[1:34:25] Well, you could you could have affordable homes that would could cost

[1:34:29] $600,000, you know, if you want to twist it, right?

[1:34:32] » But I'm I'm not going to be willing to stand up in front of the town meeting

[1:34:36] and try to sell it. >> Try to tell tell me a starter home for

[1:34:39] $600,000. >> Yeah. Well, there's an affordable house

[1:34:40] here for $600,000. Folks, you all buy it, right? Sure. We do. I think an argu

[1:34:46] argument could be made, but this is something that the spectrum of how

[1:34:50] there's a a real weakness in the spectrum of housing. It's available in

[1:34:55] Boxboro and we're trying to, you know, fix that

[1:35:00] » and and by going two per per acre something like that,

[1:35:06] that >> pains the equation, right? Because we're

[1:35:08] all on acre minimum lots, too. >> Yeah. Right. That's why I really like 40

[1:35:13] Y. >> Yeah. The party is attractive to me

[1:35:16] because I mean that's what the survey said and I think personally war I tell

[1:35:24] anecdotally that is something that box badly needs

[1:35:30] is dual income starter homes whatever you call them

[1:35:34] » the the I think I think and you know 40 y is new and I was I missed the part

[1:35:40] about the municipal war and so forth But I really tried to pin the presenter down

[1:35:47] when we were up at evidence and I thought I got the right answers. But

[1:35:51] » I think some careful reading of um statute I just read

[1:35:58] » is that the minimum density for 40y is four units per acre.

[1:36:04] » Yeah. >> Which sounds sounds pretty feasible for

[1:36:08] that property honestly. >> So we've got eight acres. So you've got

[1:36:11] 8 * 32 >> and you're going to have 8 * 32 * 2 kids

[1:36:18] in your school. >> So

[1:36:21] » you're being careful with those numbers because there's constraints

[1:36:25] » on >> radius and wellhead and ledge and all

[1:36:29] that. So we can't fit >> eight times four.

[1:36:33] » Yeah. Yeah. But I don't think >> so. Anyway, we could sit, you know,

[1:36:40] » I'm I'm saying for that for that for the acreage that we have, there's about you

[1:36:45] could at that rate about use about 3 acres of it for housing and then the

[1:36:52] rest of it for other amenities. >> I bet you that you won't find it.

[1:36:59] » That will work. >> But 8 acres now that are developable for

[1:37:04] housing. I think it's eight. >> I think it that's what we figured. We

[1:37:08] haven't done an analysis. There might be ledge and everything else.

[1:37:10] » Well, 20 Yeah, 20 that would be 24 units and that's way beyond the capacity of

[1:37:15] the land. >> Right. What we could do is to say we can

[1:37:18] only build on this portion of the land. Okay. For geographical reasons

[1:37:23] » and donate the rest of it to the town for municipal purposes,

[1:37:26] » right? Yeah. which makes sense to me because we can't build

[1:37:30] » and and I'm saying like if if if you use like a co-ousing model and you had a a

[1:37:35] cert center that had multiple purposes, you

[1:37:40] could collaborate with the town on that. The town could use it for different

[1:37:43] things. like most of the co-housing communities in the area also like host

[1:37:49] other groups and events and stuff in their common house because it's it's a

[1:37:55] great resource >> and also we need some of the other quite

[1:37:59] quite a bit of the other land >> for wells and septic system too. It's

[1:38:05] not I mean we can't I don't know quite how much that is probably around five or

[1:38:09] six acres >> that we need for that.

[1:38:12] » Yeah. So, uh, I mean, we with the housing, we might have room for a

[1:38:18] community center, we might not, but I think we could comfortably use all the

[1:38:22] land that we have. >> Mhm.

[1:38:25] » Well, I think I think the town would the town, you know, the economic committee,

[1:38:30] the conservation committee, etc., etc., all have some ideas as to how that

[1:38:36] extra, so to speak, land could be used. What trails or whatever.

[1:38:40] » Yeah. Well, of things like a town center and stuff.

[1:38:46] » So if you use three acres of it for 40 Y housing, you have the rest of the

[1:38:51] acreage per whatever else.

[1:38:54] » Well, you're going to use plus >> whatever it takes for septic as well.

[1:38:59] That's >> Oh, yeah, that's it.

[1:39:01] » So that's going to be community center. got to have some septic system in

[1:39:06] » the requirements for a community center for that are not as stressful as those

[1:39:12] for uh dwelling. >> Mhm.

[1:39:14] » So probably that's not going to add too much load.

[1:39:17] » Yeah. >> I mean um

[1:39:20] but a lot of things to think about,

[1:39:25] » you know, maybe maybe what you're saying is right. I I don't know. I I don't

[1:39:30] think we need to have a commercial development in order to get get on there

[1:39:33] what we want to have done, but I may be wrong. I don't we'd have to work through

[1:39:38] some pricing and some alternatives and say, well, what is the market really

[1:39:42] able to sustain? And you know, you're going to come in

[1:39:46] and someone's going to say, well, it's going to be affordable and you know, for

[1:39:50] a four family or for a six person household,

[1:39:54] » you know, your your annual income could be, I don't know, call it $100,000.

[1:39:59] And if [clears throat] you can afford that amount of money, you can afford a

[1:40:02] $500 to $400,000 home. And you know, you got to convince everybody that's what we

[1:40:07] want to do. And you know, and they're going to want to say, "Sure, I'm glad

[1:40:11] they have it." >> I can tell you that I have kids and

[1:40:16] $500,000 hole over $600,000. It's a bargain right now.

[1:40:20] » You know, you got the money. >> It is.

[1:40:23] » Yeah. Apparently I that still like makes my eyes bug out thinking about those

[1:40:29] numbers because I'm just like >> well I think Massachusetts Massachusetts

[1:40:36] says gee we got to we got to have affordable housing for to keep technical

[1:40:40] people here but I've never met a company yet that wouldn't pay up for the

[1:40:43] technical people that they wanted. So I don't

[1:40:46] » well if you work in tech sure it's fine.

[1:40:51] » People throw around the term affordable but there's a lack of precision about

[1:40:56] what they mean. >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz cuz affordable

[1:41:01] here by and large when we say what our affordable units are in Boxboro most of

[1:41:06] it's 40B like a large chunk of it 40B. But if you're offering a home that would

[1:41:12] market at 800,000 and selling it for 600,000,

[1:41:18] could you call that affordable? >> I don't know.

[1:41:21] » Well, it seems reasonable. >> I mean, if that is that 80% AMI,

[1:41:28] » you know, >> 110% of AMI for a six person household,

[1:41:32] eight person household. >> What? But this 80% AMI is not in any of

[1:41:37] the it's not we people don't get that

[1:41:41] numeric you talk about it. >> So that's unclear

[1:41:47] affordable means less than the market price to most people.

[1:41:51] » Yeah.

[1:41:54] » Well there you have it.

[1:41:58] Well, some still out there.

[1:42:04] » You're still there?

[1:42:08] » I am.

[1:42:12] » I my my take on it is we should look into 40 Y. I I think 40 to me 40 Y is a

[1:42:20] good fit. Now maybe there are some problems with it that you know I haven't

[1:42:24] caught or we don't know about but I think digging a bit deep into 40 Y

[1:42:31] uh to see what really is possible or whether it is you know the fit it seems

[1:42:37] to be would make sense for us that's what I my opinion is

[1:42:43] » I agree >> now we just have to analyze it and see

[1:42:48] » I say I like option Would >> would the board like me would it would

[1:42:54] the board like me to set up a meeting sometime over the next few weeks to

[1:42:59] discuss this with whoever the 40y coordinator at EOHLC is

[1:43:05] » and I can get a hold of them and and schedule some time.

[1:43:08] » Yeah, I mean it looks good to me but maybe when we like Chan says maybe when

[1:43:12] we look into it more detail we find you know it's not that good. And I'll bet

[1:43:17] that that person might be able to actually look at what we have and be

[1:43:20] able to tell us if it's very feasible or not. You know,

[1:43:29] cuz what everybody complains about and what the data shows, matter of fact, is

[1:43:34] that we need starter homes in Boxboro. And what's wrong with that? I mean,

[1:43:39] those are homes for families, for young people, and everything else for all a

[1:43:44] bunch of old aers. I mean, you know, it would be good for box play in my

[1:43:48] opinion. >> I mean, I think it would be great to

[1:43:50] have it half and h like half and half like geared towards starter homes for

[1:43:55] young families and the other half of it more towards seniors who are sizing

[1:43:59] down, right? Like that seems to be kind of the needs of the town because I'm

[1:44:04] hear I I hear both sides. >> Yeah.

[1:44:06] » Yeah. How do how do we answer the question? I guess that's the question.

[1:44:12] Have I talk to somebody and sort through a little bit?

[1:44:16] » I you know Yeah, that's what I think. I think we

[1:44:21] ought to I think you ought to do that myself. I think let's look into 40 wide.

[1:44:26] » Mhm. you you can be part of the group that looks into 40 wide to see if

[1:44:30] there's >> and then if we find that there's some

[1:44:34] aspect of it that doesn't really quite work for our town specifically maybe

[1:44:38] then we could go with option one and do kind of a modified 40y

[1:44:43] of some sort we just so long as the process keeps

[1:44:49] moving along so that we can either discard what we really just can't handle

[1:44:54] because it's either too complicated or too lengthy or whatever as long as we

[1:45:00] can and keep focusing on what we can do. >> Another possibility and one advantage of

[1:45:06] talking to a person about it is as Ian points out 40 is kind of new and in the

[1:45:14] process of formation. I mean we might actually be able to influence

[1:45:19] » Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The the way the program is structured by telling them

[1:45:23] our situation and what >> I think it's a good opportunity.

[1:45:26] » Yeah. So we could take advantage of the fact that things are

[1:45:31] » quite not quite worked out in 40 land >> have some plasticity.

[1:45:38] » So do we do we all >> Well, it's it's got to you guys. Um

[1:45:43] » I'm telling you what I think. What is it what does everybody else think?

[1:45:48] Well, I'm I'm glad to take another look at what at at the U DMR whatever it is

[1:45:54] 69 uh highlight what I think of the

[1:45:58] problems and then if someone thinks that they can

[1:46:01] solve the problems that's an action item [clears throat] for them

[1:46:06] I guess because I don't I don't I really don't want to

[1:46:10] fool around with 4. It's new. You know, I don't want to be the one that gets

[1:46:15] tangled in the spaghetti trying to sort through it and the density bothers me.

[1:46:21] Um, but you know, just was just my I wonder if the the four houses breakers

[1:46:26] includes septic. Well, well, there is a wastewater issue thing,

[1:46:32] although it isn't the municipal thing, >> but I but I, you know, I'm just one

[1:46:37] voice in this. Um, Jim, you mentioned that you liked

[1:46:41] option five. I could see that since since uh option five isn't actually an

[1:46:48] overlay that it could conceivably be combined with 4. I don't see why I don't

[1:46:52] really see why not. >> I mean, I I just think that I guess for

[1:46:56] me, my view, and I'm a longtime resident, so I'm not I'm not looking for

[1:47:00] affordable housing, but it seems like to me, you've got a nice parcel,

[1:47:06] you have space. Why are you trying to jam everything together? Like you could

[1:47:12] take the houses, maybe spread them out a little bit, maybe do two per acre or

[1:47:16] something like that, and then yeah, you've got to do the well and stuff. It

[1:47:19] just seems like to me you're trying to jam it all on an acre. Jam it all on an

[1:47:23] acre and then yeah, it just doesn't seem it doesn't seem consistent with the town

[1:47:28] rural character that we like to claim. And I know that there's a lot of

[1:47:33] developments that are much tighter than that, you know, but you know, we're

[1:47:38] we're limited in how many units we can put up by well septic. So why are we

[1:47:43] trying to like jam them all on three acres of it or two acres of it, right?

[1:47:49] That's that's kind of my feeling. >> And if that's the case, then you could

[1:47:53] do what do they call it? I'll make sure I call it the right option five, which

[1:47:58] was the friendly chapter B. >> Yes.

[1:48:01] Well, that's what the uh committee ages ago decided on. That's what that's what

[1:48:06] we decided. But I really think I like Ian's idea of tracking down somebody who

[1:48:13] could talk to us about wide and we could just have a informal discussion with

[1:48:18] them about what we are thinking and find out what they're thinking.

[1:48:24] » So shall we go forward with that? >> I think so. And that doesn't exclude the

[1:48:28] possibility of still doing um you know the friendly 40b or doing it in coll in

[1:48:34] combination with it. >> No indeed it might actually do in the

[1:48:37] whole 40 wide thing. If we find something we don't like that's untenable

[1:48:42] then we'll stop talking about it. >> Mhm.

[1:48:45] » Yeah. >> I guess that's your action item being

[1:48:51] » I'm on it. I'll reach out to him tomorrow. I I'm certain that the 40y

[1:48:56] page does have a contact at the bottom. So, I'll start that ASAP

[1:49:01] because we know how long it can take to hear back from them.

[1:49:06] » Britney has better note from the last um ARHC

[1:49:11] meeting and has the and has the contact jotted down for

[1:49:16] » Oh, perfect. I didn't know that they they did something at the

[1:49:19] » Yeah, they did they did a presentation. >> Oh, awesome. That's where that's where I

[1:49:23] first learned about it. And then in the housing leadership academy thing um one

[1:49:27] of the um locations out in oh for it's a town that begins with R out in um

[1:49:34] Northshore. Um but they were working on trying to apply that in their town.

[1:49:39] » Nice.

[1:49:43] » Okay. Great. Thank you. Is that all J? Yeah. Okay. Uh the final item is the is

[1:49:51] the letter to sent to the tenants out of here or what is the status on

[1:49:57] that? I know we looked at the letter last week. Uh

[1:50:00] » yeah, I don't think I don't think we ended up sending it out. I might have

[1:50:05] dropped the ball on that. Um unless Wendy did was I supposed to have sent

[1:50:10] that to you and then maybe I didn't.

[1:50:15] » I think so. Ian and I briefly touched base on it like a week or two ago,

[1:50:23] but I think we were supposed to get some >> Yeah, I had finished it. Um I had

[1:50:29] finished editing it, but I'm not sure if I

[1:50:35] I'm not sure where its final draft is. Um I'll put that on my agenda. uh uh

[1:50:43] find or at least find what I can for tomorrow morning.

[1:50:49] » Well, my memory is we were pretty happy with the

[1:50:53] » we're talking about the letter that we had at the um at Viper Day at the table,

[1:50:59] right? Yeah. >> So, uh Okay. So, you two are going to

[1:51:04] work on getting it out of here. >> Yeah. And this also this also has on it

[1:51:09] that we invited we're inviting people to the housing board meeting on the fourth

[1:51:13] Tuesday of each month and specifically the one um on the 25th.

[1:51:24] » Okay. That's sort of a then I that's if I got it straight that's kind of a dual

[1:51:29] action item between Wendy and you Wendy and Ian.

[1:51:33] » Yeah I believe so. Yep.

[1:51:38] » Okay. Well, let's see if we can get this out of here. Um, let's see. Huh.

[1:51:45] It would be actually good to get more people in at the uh August meeting.

[1:51:51] Um, does the does the board feel that we can

[1:51:56] just, you know, make editorial changes and get

[1:52:01] it out of here without further approval by the board?

[1:52:05] I think so. I'm going to go ahead and send this as a

[1:52:10] link to Ian >> if that's okay. I think that's what we

[1:52:13] should do. Otherwise, we won't get it out in a timely way for the

[1:52:22] » So, unless I enter your objections, we'll we'll figure out how to get it out

[1:52:27] of here, make the corrections, and then send it out.

[1:52:31] » Yeah, I think that's fine. >> Sounds good.

[1:52:34] Yeah. >> Well, I think that's all we have.

[1:52:42] Certainly been an interesting meeting. Um, we learned a lot.

[1:52:48] As always, facts produce more questions than answers, but that's the way it is.

[1:52:57] Excuse me. I'm sorry. Excuse me. When's the next meeting?

[1:53:00] » August 25th. So, I do just want to confirm that we

[1:53:04] are not planning to have a second meeting in the month of August, but

[1:53:08] instead we're just opting for the one housing production forum to finish off

[1:53:13] the summer. >> Wait, is that on August 25th? So, that's

[1:53:18] » August 25th. >> There's going to be a house, what is it?

[1:53:21] A housing >> housing production forum

[1:53:24] » production. Al, I'll reach out to you in Channing over the next week. We can set

[1:53:29] up a time to meet. Um, in the meantime, I'll get some promotion promotional

[1:53:33] materials in the hands of those um who need it.

[1:53:39] » Okay. So, do I keep that on the calendar and is there going to be an agenda cuz

[1:53:43] there's >> there will be Yes. Yeah. For the time

[1:53:48] being, just assume it's a regular meeting. Um,

[1:53:51] » that's a regular time, right? The fourth.

[1:53:53] » Yeah. Are you talking about the the town calendar?

[1:53:56] » Yeah, the town calendar. If you have it up there, it wouldn't wouldn't hurt just

[1:54:00] to say box uh box housing board meeting/housing production form.

[1:54:06] » Okay, I can just change the name. It's probably already up there because I set

[1:54:09] it for every fourth Tuesday. >> Perfect.

[1:54:12] » So say housing production form.

[1:54:18] » Yep.

[1:54:22] And if if I think if items accumulate that we need to deal with in a timely

[1:54:27] fashion, uh we might have a meeting there in

[1:54:30] August, but let's not plan it now. Let's see how many items accumulate and only

[1:54:35] meet.

[1:54:39] » So with that being said, do I hear a motion to adjourn?

[1:54:44] » So move. >> Second.

[1:54:47] » All right. Uh, Channing in favor. I

[1:54:51] » I >> I

[1:54:53] uh Joel Joe >> I

[1:54:56] » Okay, there.

Housing Board - July 28, 2026

Transcript