[0:24] Started to live. Let us know when we can start, please.

[0:28] Yes, ma'am. Good evening, everyone. I am now starting all recording devices.

[0:35] Mr. Chairman, we're all set and ready to go.

[0:39] Thank you.

[0:42] Welcome to the August 2020-26 meeting of the Historic Preservation Commission, which is in person and on Zoom.

[0:55] Ms. Davis, can I have a roll call, please?

[0:58] Yes, Ms. Rossin.

[1:00] Here.

[1:01] Mr. Wright.

[1:02] Here.

[1:03] Councilwoman Jones.

[1:04] Here.

[1:05] Ms. Marlowe.

[1:07] Here.

[1:07] And Ms. LeVine.

[1:09] Here.

[1:09] We have a quorum.

[1:10] Thank you.

[1:12] Adequate notice of this meeting

[1:13] had been provided to the press

[1:15] in accordance with the Open Public Meetings Act,

[1:17] NJSA 10-4-6.

[1:20] In addition, notice of this meeting

[1:21] was posted in Village Hall

[1:23] on the village's website and it's been filed in the office the village clerk

[1:27] official action may be taken approval of the minutes that he sent out the

[1:35] minutes from the June and July meetings which seem to be accurate and

[1:41] adequate to me does anybody have any comments on the minutes okay can I

[1:49] I have a motion to accept the minutes.

[1:54] I make a motion to accept the minutes.

[1:56] Okay, second.

[1:59] Second.

[2:00] Okay, all in favor.

[2:02] Aye.

[2:03] Any opposed?

[2:05] Nay.

[2:07] And we also put on the record

[2:09] that Ms. Crawford has joined us.

[2:12] I'm so sorry.

[2:12] Bravo.

[2:13] It's okay.

[2:14] We just started.

[2:15] We just started the meeting.

[2:20] I'm sorry, Mr. Chair was the minutes for both sets. Yes. Okay. Thank you

[2:26] Okay, now we can move on to HPC case

[2:31] 2026-3

[2:34] Harlem Gunness

[2:36] block 903 block 22

[2:40] 20 Elm Court

[2:42] Applicant is proposing an ADU attached to the existing single-family house

[2:53] Okay, whatever you're gonna come up with.

[2:57] Thanks, Brian.

[2:58] Perfect.

[2:59] Okay.

[3:01] Brian, if you want to pull up the slide, please.

[3:05] Yes, ma'am.

[3:06] Pulling it up now.

[3:08] Thank you.

[3:10] Can you please state your names for the record?

[3:13] Yes.

[3:13] John Loughran, a homeowner at 20 Ohm Court.

[3:16] Harlem Gunn is homeowner as well.

[3:18] 20 Ohm Court.

[3:19] Let me just get spelling of your names and then I'll swear you.

[3:22] Sure.

[3:22] John, J-O-H-N, Lachran, L-O-U-G-H-R-A-N.

[3:28] L-U-G-H-R-A-N.

[3:30] L-O-U-G-H-R-A-N.

[3:32] Thank you.

[3:33] Okay, you were?

[3:34] Harlem, like Harlem, New York, H-A-R-L-E-M.

[3:38] And Guinness, like Guinness, without the I-G-U-N-N-N-N-S-S.

[3:45] All right, Mr. Laughlin and Mr. Guinness,

[3:46] do you surrender the testimony

[3:47] or provide the seating?

[3:48] Is the truth or the whole truth?

[3:50] Yes, it is.

[3:52] Okay.

[3:54] So we're proposing to add on an accessory dwelling unit

[3:57] behind our home at 20 Elm Court.

[4:00] You can go to the next slide.

[4:03] We're located on 20 Elm Court

[4:05] between University Court and South Orange Avenue.

[4:08] We're in a RE-60 zone, I guess you go to the next slide.

[4:15] So we comply with the zoning,

[4:20] except for a minimum lot width,

[4:22] but we're a non-conforming pre-existing use.

[4:24] All of the other requirements for the zoning. We do comply with

[4:27] I said the

[4:29] Minimum lot with we're pre-existing additions. We don't comply with that, but all the other conditions for the zoning we do comply with

[4:37] No, we do not because it's already non-conforming. It's all all ready non-conforming. Yeah, I just wanted to make sure whether we were here for

[4:49] So we're existing one family home we're proposing accessory drilling unit in the rear yard

[4:55] Let's see. It's approximately a 14 foot by 35 foot addition in the back. If you go to

[5:02] the next slide.

[5:04] So you can see the addition is in the back off the right-hand side of

[5:09] the house in the back of the property. It's set 10 feet off the property line. Once again

[5:14] it comes back about 35 feet. It is a one-story addition of 480 square feet. That will be

[5:20] the accessory drilling unit. To construct the accessory drilling unit we are, there's

[5:26] an existing screened-in porch in that location that would be removed to put the accessory

[5:31] drilling unit addition on. And we can see photos of that if we go to the next slide.

[5:37] Oh sorry, next slide is the plan. So you can see, let's see once again it's about

[5:42] 35 feet straight back. I just want to note to you that off the side elevation the

[5:47] The addition is recessed back two feet to give it a break from the existing mass and existing facade.

[5:53] You can see that it's a one bedroom, one bath addition, 480 square feet.

[6:00] So next slide, please.

[6:05] Okay, so this is a view of the existing house.

[6:08] You on the left is with the front of the house.

[6:10] On the right is the rear house.

[6:12] Rear of the house, you can see the existing through the porch that would be removed to add the new dwelling unit.

[6:18] unit. The new dwelling unit matches the existing roof pitch.

[6:25] I'm getting a little out of order

[6:26] here.

[6:29] Okay. So, yes, you know the next slide. So, yes, you can see that screened in porch.

[6:34] Once again, that's removed. So, the new addition is set back two feet from side to side. The

[6:40] next slide. And these are the homes to the left of us, the homes to the right of

[6:45] The addition would be in the back of the house

[6:48] so it wouldn't be visible from the street.

[6:49] So it wouldn't be changing the look from the street at all.

[6:53] This is the rear facade on the left.

[6:55] So once again, we matched the roof pitch

[6:57] on that existing porch.

[6:59] It matches that existing breakfast room to the right

[7:02] so that pitch stays the same.

[7:04] We went with a very simple structure

[7:05] so that it is subordinate to the main structure

[7:07] and the main house.

[7:08] So you can still read the main house

[7:09] even though it has an addition.

[7:11] As far as materials, we're proposing party plank siding

[7:15] A simple clapboard siding that would be the same contour and section as the existing house.

[7:24] The new siding does not come in contact with the existing wood siding except for that inside

[7:29] corner on the right-hand side because the first floor is brick where the two touch, where

[7:33] the two meet each other, so very different.

[7:36] The fenestrations are intended to match the proportions of the existing.

[7:40] existing. Those windows on the right-hand side elevation, for instance, are taller windows

[7:47] that match our dining room windows. Same similar to those. Once again, materials would be an

[7:54] asphalt roof that matches the existing. The hardy plank, simple clapboard sign that matches

[7:59] the existing sliding on the house. Let's see what's my note.

[8:07] And if you go to the

[8:07] next slide, this would be the view from the south side, which is actually the

[8:13] side or our neighbor's driveway side.

[8:15] And once again, the intent was that it matches the same

[8:18] window proportion existing house.

[8:20] It is clearly an accessory to the main dwelling unit.

[8:24] And you can't tell from here, but once again,

[8:26] the existing house that it touches up against is bricks.

[8:30] You'll never see the two different materials

[8:31] come together, the hardened plank

[8:33] versus the original wood side.

[8:36] We're using, I

[8:42] think that's my last slide.

[8:43] Any questions on that?

[8:45] How much how much how many feet beyond the I know I understand it's being removed

[8:51] But how many feet beyond the existing screened-in porch will this extend about

[8:57] Existing through important is eight feet or so so

[9:05] 27 26 so that's pretty long. Yeah. Yeah

[9:10] What's the setback from the rear property line

[9:22] rear setback is 79 feet

[9:26] Oh, so you have a deep, you have a deep here.

[9:28] Yeah, it's a, it's a trapezoidal shape plot,

[9:31] yes, so it's very deep.

[9:33] Okay.

[9:34] And then the side yard is set back 10 feet

[9:35] from the side closest to the neighbor's yard.

[9:39] And that's actually less than...

[9:43] Yes.

[9:44] No, the current porch is set back seven feet,

[9:49] so this is, it's two additional feet

[9:53] from the existing porch set back.

[9:55] Nine feet, yeah.

[9:56] Yes, two additional feet.

[9:58] So this is set back further from the side yard than the porch was.

[10:02] Now from your pictures, you said that the roof lines are the same.

[10:07] The roof line is the same as the porch.

[10:12] The roof line on the addition.

[10:14] You meant the roof line of the existing screened in porch.

[10:17] The pitch, yes.

[10:18] The roof pitch, sorry, yes.

[10:19] The roof pitch.

[10:20] Can I see if you had an elevation just of that side so that the neighbor on that side, what that view would be?

[10:27] Yeah, if you go back, couple slides, go back, no, sorry, go back one slide, yeah, so that's

[10:37] the existing side elevation, and if you go forward two slides, it's two, yeah, one more

[10:43] slide,

[10:46] yeah, so that is the proposed elevation.

[10:49] So you don't have like a view so you can see in scale to the whole house?

[10:53] No, we don't have that.

[10:54] Okay, no is is the extension longer than the current depth of the house?

[11:07] Yes, it is.

[11:13] Yeah, you can probably see that on slide two or three

[11:22] Yes, this slide. Yeah, it's much longer and

[11:32] then inside with the two windows raised

[11:34] Those are ones facing the interior of your yard. Correct. Yes. Yeah, that's the north elevation. Mm-hmm

[11:40] Does the property behind you, does that bound on south on Javen?

[11:44] The property behind us is on, I always forget the name of that road.

[11:50] What's the name of that road?

[11:54] Yeah.

[11:55] Can you read it up there?

[11:58] Warren Court.

[12:00] Warren Court.

[12:01] Okay.

[12:01] And that's a residential building also?

[12:03] Correct, yes.

[12:05] Okay.

[12:08] And they were all noticed for this, correct?

[12:10] Everybody, there's no notice for this?

[12:12] Okay.

[12:12] Yes.

[12:13] All right.

[12:15] All right.

[12:16] Okay.

[12:17] Thank you.

[12:17] That was a very good presentation.

[12:20] Does anybody have any more questions?

[12:23] I don't because I don't believe that you can see it from the road.

[12:29] And I think that this really is a zoning.

[12:32] A zoning they don't have to worry about.

[12:35] Yeah.

[12:36] So I have no issues with it.

[12:38] Do we have any public that has questions?

[12:46] No?

[12:47] Anybody online?

[12:52] I'm not seeing any hands raised.

[12:57] Okay, thank you.

[12:58] That was a very good presentation.

[13:01] See, we're not horrible.

[13:02] You

[13:06] have one second.

[13:07] We're going to do that now.

[13:08] Okay.

[13:09] So can I have a...

[13:11] So what would be a certificate of appropriateness?

[13:14] Yeah.

[13:15] I have a motion.

[13:17] I'll make a motion for certificate of Appropriateness for 12 Elm Court, yes, 12 Elm, 20 Elm.

[13:27] Okay.

[13:28] Anybody second?

[13:31] I'll second it.

[13:32] Okay.

[13:33] All in favor?

[13:35] Can I have a roll call?

[13:39] Okay, Mr. Wright.

[13:42] Yes.

[13:43] Ms. Crawford.

[13:45] Yes.

[13:46] Ms. Rosson.

[13:47] Here.

[13:49] That will be it.

[13:50] Oh, yes.

[13:53] Ms. Marlowe.

[13:55] Yes.

[13:55] And Ms. Levine.

[13:56] Yes.

[13:57] Washington, Canada.

[13:59] Congratulations.

[14:02] I'll prepare a certificate, a resolution,

[14:05] and then, like that, you can take that resolution

[14:08] to the bill.

[14:13] You have an email address, don't you?

[14:15] What's it mean?

[14:16] I'll email it to Ruchi.

[14:18] Perfect.

[14:18] OK.

[14:19] Thank you.

[14:20] you're welcome thank you thank you yeah

[14:47] we can do that or find out who they are and do the rest first

[14:50] and then we can do them first okay okay and congratulations Lynn that was your first look

[15:04] Okay, so now we're going to move on to our local landmark designations

[15:15] 22. We're removing

[15:18] 324 Scotland Road from consideration at this point. We're going to add them to the list

[15:24] at the end of structures that have been modified and have them re-reviewed at the end.

[15:32] So that leads us 22 from the people who are online and in the audience are you

[15:42] here which property are you here for I think it's only 21 we took we took one

[15:55] of them off because it was already designated there's 21 we talked about

[15:59] 324 Scotland Road. Yeah. Because there's some question about recent modifications. Yeah,

[16:05] but there was another one that we took off before we sent it out. Because it was already

[16:11] designated. It was a key contributing property. Is that what it was on this list? Yes, and

[16:16] I don't remember which one it is. Oh, okay. Well, maybe by the time we get to a vote,

[16:21] you need to figure out which one it was. Well, the one on this list is on this list.

[16:28] It won't be on that list, Karen.

[16:30] There was also one that was on the previous list

[16:33] that we took off.

[16:34] I think it's only like 18 or 19, actually.

[16:37] Oh, okay.

[16:38] The list you sent me has 22 when we took off the one.

[16:42] I know that one we did on our previous list

[16:46] and then the one we just took off

[16:49] and then the one that was already designated.

[16:51] I've got 22 that we're still doing.

[16:53] I'll have to go back to my emails to see.

[16:57] Oh, you took that from that.

[16:58] 22, right? Yeah, but this should have one less than that.

[17:12] This is a new process for us, so I'm sorry about that. We still haven't gotten it all down yet. This one, this is 22. Yeah. And the last one we took off.

[17:29] All right. Minus the one. I'm actually saying there's another one.

[17:47] 112 Raymond is the one, so it would be 20. So 112 Raymond has already been designated.

[17:54] Already designated, okay. Got it.

[17:58] All right, now we're down to 21.

[18:02] No, it was designated on our last group.

[18:06] which

[18:09] was the one that was a key contributing and I can probably look

[18:18] it up

[18:21] yes yes yeah well I was going to just adjust councilman that we put

[18:29] together a presentation and I know there's only a couple people here but

[18:33] it's important to them so I thought that we did and I figured this is probably

[18:37] something that we're going to do you know before we get you know with new

[18:40] people right so could you Brian could you put up that that presentation yes sir

[18:47] doing it now can make

[19:10] that any bigger

[19:14] that's not really readable from here I

[19:17] guess I'll have to make it Brian can you make that any bigger yes

[19:26] sir let's see

[19:27] if I could try something else by

[19:31] the way I have copies what

[20:00] was your address

[20:09] We only have one Scotland on the list, so that's what it's like.

[20:17] Okay, great, thank you.

[20:19] Okay, so this is something that I expect that we will do for each of the presentations.

[20:26] We made the effort to put this together because a lot of people don't know how this process works

[20:33] or what the potential designation consequences are.

[20:37] So I think that this is hopefully will address

[20:39] some concerns and questions that might come up

[20:42] as we go through these hearings.

[20:44] So the historic preservation regulation

[20:48] is based upon the municipal land use law

[20:51] and a local ordinance that was adopted here

[20:53] first in 2012 and that amended in 2024.

[20:57] Our jurisdiction is that designated local landmarks

[21:01] are potentially subject to review by this commission.

[21:05] Any project that is on one of these properties

[21:08] that requires a zoning board of adjustment approval

[21:11] for variances, that's one specific process

[21:14] and that's why you heard me ask the question

[21:16] in the last group about whether or not

[21:18] they needed a variance because if your project involves

[21:22] having to go to the zoning board of adjustment,

[21:24] then what happens is the zoning board of adjustment

[21:26] sends that application here and we provide advice.

[21:30] It's not a decision, we provide advice to the zoning board,

[21:34] just like the environmental commission or somebody else,

[21:37] as an advisory decision.

[21:38] Now, if it doesn't require a variance,

[21:41] like the one we just heard,

[21:43] then they're here for something,

[21:45] but they need a construction permit,

[21:47] then the building official tells them to come here

[21:50] for a certificate of appropriateness.

[21:53] The first thing we have to figure out

[21:54] is the project exempt.

[21:57] So, I think this is important

[21:59] because there are a number of things that once we determine what it is, it doesn't have to

[22:04] need any review at all. These ordinances do not regulate any interior work at all. Anything

[22:11] you're doing in the interior is near business. It also exempts exterior painting of existing

[22:17] painted surface, repairs to less than 25% of existing shingles, siding, roofing, etc.,

[22:24] the same style of materials and repair of existing doors and windows of then kind material.

[22:30] All that is an example. If it's not exempt, then we look to see whether or not it qualifies

[22:35] as minor work. And minor work is replacement of a roof using material compatible with

[22:42] architectural design, replacement of over 25% of shingles, siding, etc. while maintaining

[22:49] in the integrity, replacement of windows and doors, minor work, and painting a previously

[22:54] unpainted exterior surface like brick or stone.

[22:58] So if you're paving over brick or stone, you need to come here for minor work.

[23:02] If you're paving over existing paving, you don't come here at all.

[23:05] If it's a minor work, you don't actually have to come to one of these meetings.

[23:09] If we deem it to be minor work, we have a subcommittee that visits and determines

[23:14] if the work will harm the historic character and integrity of the structure.

[23:17] And if it won't, then the subcommittee issues a minor work permit.

[23:22] If it's not minor work, then it's major work.

[23:25] And that means you have to come here for a hearing like you just heard.

[23:28] We take testimony and we decide whether to grant the certificate of appropriateness.

[23:33] You must obtain a certificate before the construction official can issue the permit.

[23:39] The standards for the certificate and the minor work review, they're in the ordinance.

[23:44] I'm not going to repeat them all now, but generally speaking, will the OR project negatively

[23:49] impact the historic and architectural significance of the property or the historic district?

[23:54] And that's really the test.

[23:56] That's really what we're here to do.

[23:58] Now what are we doing here now?

[23:59] This is designation because one of the things that the ordinance directs us to do is to

[24:05] recommend to the council properties that are worthy of historic designation.

[24:09] Right now, properties that are located in the Montrose Park Historic District.

[24:15] If you go over this survey and look at any of it, there are properties in there that are called key contributing, contributing, non-contributing.

[24:23] If you are key contributing, you're already regulated.

[24:25] We're not going to be designating you because you're already regulated.

[24:28] In 2024, the ordinance expanded the potential designation to properties identified as contributing also.

[24:35] And all of this comes from a cultural survey of Essex County that was done in 1986, which

[24:42] looked at each one of the properties and identified, by the way, I should mention that there were

[24:49] other criteria by which, under the federal rules, that a property can be considered

[24:54] to be historic in a landmark.

[24:57] For example, if an important person lived there, if an important event happened there,

[25:02] things like that.

[25:02] that we as sitting here, I don't believe we're aware of any properties in this district

[25:08] that qualify for that.

[25:09] That could change as we go along, but we're not aware of any of that.

[25:11] So that means that the only criterion of the Department of Interior standard that applies

[25:17] here is the one related to the architecture of the structure.

[25:21] And that's why the survey has a paragraph or so that explains what the historical

[25:27] character of the property is and identifies it in all the cases that we're here

[25:31] for tonight, identified as contributing on that basis.

[25:37] So the focus of this hearing, really, is whether or not the home continues to maintain what

[25:43] the consultant said was historic character in 1986.

[25:49] With all respect, this is not a hearing to discuss whether or not historic property

[25:53] should be regulated or property rights, et cetera.

[25:57] That's kind of already in the audience.

[25:58] What we're here to decide is whether or not the property in its current format continues

[26:04] to be historically important because of its architecture.

[26:09] Next steps, we recommend to the Council that the zoning ordinance should be amended to

[26:14] include whatever properties we recommend as designated landmarks.

[26:18] The Council then proposes an ordinance amendment to designate them.

[26:23] That ordinance, like any other zoning ordinance amendment, is referred to the Planning Board

[26:26] for review for consistency with the master plan,

[26:29] but it's important to realize that's really going

[26:31] to be a perfunctory step because all of the properties

[26:34] that we're going to talk about here

[26:36] and in future meetings are already identified

[26:38] in the master plan is potentially worthy of designation

[26:42] but still subject to this process.

[26:43] So that's going to be pretty routine.

[26:46] And so then it goes back to the council.

[26:48] The council holds a public hearing

[26:49] and adopts the ordinance designating what properties

[26:52] the council chooses to designate.

[26:54] that's it that's what we're doing and of course the homeowner would have an

[27:00] opportunity to speak tonight and and in front of the council when it's on when

[27:07] they have the public hearing on the ordinance okay you're the one sitting

[27:13] here so do you have anything to say okay

[27:17] Okay, fabulous.

[27:21] Chief Vapaba, who's online?

[27:24] So Michael, are you objecting to your house being put on?

[27:28] Oh, okay.

[27:29] Great, thank you.

[27:30] Michael is a longtime member of the zoning board of Adjustment.

[27:34] Oh, I did not.

[27:34] When I first went on.

[27:35] So you knew all about the zoning warden,

[27:37] so you didn't have, I didn't need to tell you that part.

[27:38] Okay, I'm sorry about that.

[27:39] No, you're right.

[27:41] I represent the planning board, not the zoning board.

[27:45] Okay.

[27:46] Is there anybody online?

[27:46] We

[27:50] have one attendee online,

[27:55] Maria, please raise your hand.

[27:58] Chatter your mic is off.

[28:00] Sorry.

[28:02] We have one attendee online, Maria.

[28:06] If you would like to speak, Maria, please raise your hand so we can elevate you.

[28:16] Okay, Brian, please elevate Maria.

[28:22] Yes, ma'am, Maria, you have been elevated.

[28:25] Please unmute your mic and turn on your camera.

[28:27] Maria

[28:38] is now joining hi

[28:54] Maria what what property are you my address is 274

[29:00] Charlton Avenue you know what's your last name Maria

[29:09] I don't have any questions. I just wanted to just say that I'm online and I'm participating.

[29:11] I'm sorry. I missed it.

[29:11] M what?

[29:13] M E N.

[29:15] E I L L Y.

[29:18] Thank you. Okay. Go ahead.

[29:22] I don't have any questions.

[29:23] I just wanted to just say that I'm online and I'm participating.

[29:26] Thank you. Do you object to us designating your house?

[29:32] I do not. Oh, okay, great.

[29:36] In that case, we can just read all these things.

[29:40] Yeah, I think that we don't need to read the descriptions. I think we can read the problems.

[29:44] So let's make clear what it is that, so the record is clear about what it is that we're relying upon.

[29:52] So, the document that I have in front of me, that you have in front of me, are the sections

[30:00] Of the 1986 Essex County Cultural Survey for the properties that are on the agenda this evening. Is that right?

[30:08] Yes. Okay. And so the, those, that document includes the address, the block and lot number, a description of the property in some cases,

[30:22] This is, in some cases, not only including the architectural character of the property,

[30:28] but also some information in some cases about prior ownership, et cetera, and then it includes

[30:35] the names of the current owner.

[30:37] So what you'll be voting on here eventually, after I just read the addresses, is based

[30:47] based upon this document, whether or not you were recommending that these properties be recommended to the Council for designation as local owners.

[30:57] Okay. All right. So the properties are 127 Ralston Avenue, 130 Ralston Avenue, 137 Ralston Avenue, 144 Ralston Avenue, 147 Ralston Avenue, 158 Raymond Avenue, 228 Raymond Avenue,

[31:16] 111 Terrell Avenue, 134 Terrell Avenue, 135 Terrell Avenue, 139 Terrell Avenue, 147 Terrell

[31:27] Avenue, 155 Terrell Avenue, 262 Charlton Avenue, 273 Charleston Avenue.

[31:35] Are you ready to know what he's down?

[31:36] I'll give this to you later.

[31:40] 273 Charleston Avenue, 274 Charleston Avenue, 274 Charleston Avenue, 274 Charleston

[31:48] 186 Charlton Avenue 136 Irving Avenue 151 Irving Avenue and that's it I would also for 142 Irving

[32:12] Erving Avenue, I would also like to read into the record a statement

[32:21] of the owner who asked

[32:25] for some clarification on what the ordinance was and then said, we have reviewed and support

[32:31] the designation of our property at 142 Erving Avenue as a local landmark, we will not attend

[32:37] the hearing due to travel, but please add our support to the public, many thanks.

[32:42] that's Mr. Mariel and Ms. Miller correct correct I think you're ready for a

[32:51] motion that case can I have a motion to designate denoted properties as local

[32:55] landmarks I'll make a motion I have a second second I have a roll call please

[33:04] check yes mr. Wright yes miss Rosson yes miss Crawford yes miss Marlowe yes

[33:15] Yes, and Mr. Levine.

[33:16] Yes.

[33:17] Real phone.

[33:18] I mean, motion carries.

[33:19] Thank you.

[33:22] Okay.

[33:26] So that takes us out of new business.

[33:31] I'll leave you a message.

[33:33] I know.

[33:34] Okay.

[33:37] Old business, we don't have any.

[33:41] Discussions follow up.

[33:43] Is there a village council report?

[33:53] I have two items.

[33:55] Thank you so much.

[33:56] Can we talk about the next steps?

[33:58] because now we're at a group of, I guess it's 28 plus the 10, 8 from before 10?

[34:04] No, I think it's 6.

[34:07] So now we're almost at 30, so I guess the next step, we'll go to the Village Council,

[34:10] so we'll find a date.

[34:12] Do we send an email?

[34:14] Are you sending an email or a letter to all of the people that say you're now moving

[34:18] on and you need a date from the Council?

[34:21] What's the next step and what that process will be?

[34:23] Yeah, I don't know that we figured that out.

[34:25] I don't know that that's in the ordinance, I didn't look honestly, but I would think

[34:28] that once you have a date, then we should notify them.

[34:33] Okay, yeah, I'll send an email out to the council

[34:35] to find out when in the fall we would do those homes.

[34:39] And if we can have a solid list of the ones from today,

[34:43] plus I can pour that, if you could put it on one,

[34:47] that would be helpful.

[34:48] Sure.

[34:50] Number two, I did ask Mr. Grinchy,

[34:55] if the process is in place for demolitions,

[34:58] because a number of years ago we had said anytime

[35:00] that there was a home being demolished,

[35:02] that we would know, just so we can capture pictures.

[35:05] So that process is still in place.

[35:10] But there was an ordinance for 99 boats that you guys,

[35:14] which is the one that's next to the post office.

[35:17] That is not being demolished,

[35:18] but if you look at the council resolutions,

[35:23] There was a turning off of the sewer for that which my assumption is in the future something's gonna happen

[35:29] I don't know when it could be like 10 years. Yeah, it's insignificant as repair. It is. Yeah

[35:33] I know they're having a hard time

[35:35] So I just want to make sure that you guys were aware that the process for mr.

[35:39] Grinchy is still in place where he will notify us if there are demolitions coming up

[35:49] No, what we have said is

[35:51] is, he would tell us of any building that was being demolished so that we could take

[35:56] a picture of it, not necessarily in the mattress. So that was, I think that was about three years

[36:00] ago that we had that discussion.

[36:03] Is there anything we can do for that property to prevent it from just demolition by neglect,

[36:11] which is essentially what seems to be happening?

[36:15] Well, your ordinance that we did in 2024 has a demolition by neglect provision in

[36:21] right? And if I recall correctly, they either really on anybody's initiative but

[36:30] certainly on your initiative you could communicate to the building department

[36:35] that there are obviously code violations there and they should take those

[36:39] steps necessary to address them. Sounds like he's kind of doing it already but

[36:44] I could be wrong. I think it's been happening for two years now. So if it's

[36:50] So my goal is not to call out bad property in general, it's just more of a larger look

[36:58] at outside of it.

[36:58] Right, no, I totally understand that.

[37:01] But I don't want the property owner to have it.

[37:03] That's continuing.

[37:04] I haven't driven by there recently, but I did take some photos actually of it even a year

[37:08] plus ago when I was sort of concerned.

[37:10] I know it's a sale, so.

[37:12] I walked by.

[37:13] Yes, I know someone made an offer on it and it was turned down from what I heard

[37:17] And it sounds based on the condition of the building like it was a fair offer

[37:22] Well, it's up to you. I mean if it's the it's the will of the Commission

[37:25] I can write a simple letter to mr. Grinchy that says we're concerned about the conditions on this property and under them

[37:32] it appears to be demolition by neglect and

[37:35] We'd you know hope that you will take steps necessary to enforce the code. I

[37:42] Would be in favor of that. Okay

[37:44] You see the address again?

[37:48] I'm sorry?

[37:50] 99 votes.

[37:51] What was that happening?

[37:54] Okay.

[37:55] I would also like to know that Mr.

[37:59] Linser who is filling in for Ms.

[38:02] Petrus is also discussing changing the definition of

[38:10] demolition.

[38:11] I know.

[38:13] No.

[38:13] Just demolition, period.

[38:15] because it was specific to a house on Prospect Street,

[38:20] which was, they said they were renovating the house,

[38:25] they knocked it all down, except one little corner piece,

[38:29] and then they built the whole big giant house around it,

[38:32] and then knocked that down,

[38:33] and they pulled out the whole,

[38:35] this absolutely-

[38:35] That's that beautiful one that I saw online.

[38:38] I just happened to be online,

[38:39] and I said, where did this house on Prospect come from?

[38:41] Because it's definitely out of character.

[38:42] It's completely out of character.

[38:43] It's they replaced a 2,000 square foot house with a it's I think it's going to be 6,700 square feet

[38:52] It has forward-facing garages, which is the only the only one on process on process at 331

[39:03] Garth over by Garfield, okay, interesting

[39:06] And the guy built it

[39:08] but apparently this guy builds the shell and then tries to sell it before he finishes it.

[39:15] Yeah, that's not what it looks like. That's the AI version of what it's going to be when it's finished.

[39:23] So it's a non-conforming lot. It's not wide enough.

[39:28] It's going to be tough, but...

[39:30] So Ms. Patras is going to look

[39:31] at the demolition...

[39:32] Well, I think Mr. Grinch is

[39:35] pretty keen on just pushing it

[39:37] through, and I don't think on

[39:39] this one that it's going to be

[39:42] reversed, but going forward, I

[39:46] think we need to look at what

[39:48] they called demolition, because

[39:51] like I said, they pulled out

[39:52] the whole foundation, put in a

[39:53] whole new foundation.

[39:55] There's nothing left of the

[39:56] old house. You could argue that it was existing, non-compliant, but it's still the intensity

[40:04] is certainly a lot different from when it was a smaller house to what it is right now.

[40:11] It just kind of got pushed through by the building department even after it was pointed

[40:16] out that it shouldn't be.

[40:22] There was nothing anybody has

[40:26] something that was in discussion.

[40:31] Yeah.

[40:32] I'm from a council perspective. I don't have anything else on this. Do you want to talk about the

[40:39] The subcommittee meeting with the two vendors the two I was gonna leave that up to when you guys get to it

[40:45] Oh, you have to do it. Sorry. Mr. Right. Sorry. He got it from here. I did my email

[40:51] Okay, before we do that, let's just go through the other ones on the subcommittee stuff

[40:56] So, 257 Warwick Avenue, minor work involving repairing, replacing elements of the existing

[41:04] wraparound porch.

[41:06] David and I did an inspection.

[41:09] We met with the contractor and they did a beautiful job on it, and we gave them the

[41:15] okay to go ahead with that.

[41:19] 351 Terrell put in a request for minor work, they're replacing the existing entry

[41:25] door and a side door. I got back to the, I guess it's a company that does permitting

[41:33] for the window and door company and said I needed more information because they gave us a whole

[41:40] bunch of pictures of what's there now but absolutely no information on what they're

[41:44] putting in. So they said they were going to follow up and give us some more information

[41:49] on that they haven't done that yet so inspection or

[42:04] that brings us to the

[42:06] prospect street surveying process. David do you want to? Well council member

[42:13] Jones has very kindly proposed a process to to get the ball rolling on this

[42:21] survey and initial stage would be consultation with a couple of historical

[42:28] survey firms that are doing work in our neighborhood, neighboring towns, and she

[42:38] circulated this proposal a couple days ago and I can't add much to it at this

[42:45] point but I can see our next action will be to figure out some scheduling so we

[42:53] can get our town administrators and delegation from this commission in informal meetings

[43:03] with these consultants to help us craft our own proposal, our own RFP for going ahead with

[43:16] I'd like to just interject a question.

[43:21] We have also been addressing the subject of the 1985-86 county cultural survey.

[43:32] I understand that some of that information is 40 years old and therefore out of date

[43:39] and we also are facing a process to update that information.

[43:43] Am I right about that?

[43:45] Well, what we're doing is, when I select the houses,

[43:49] I'm looking for ones that match the descriptions.

[43:52] And then at the end of that, anything that's been altered,

[43:56] then we'll have whoever we choose to come in

[43:59] and do a new report on those.

[44:02] Okay, so you will be identifying some properties

[44:07] So a mismatch with their description in the old survey.

[44:12] I just won't select them for designation

[44:15] and then we'll leave them till the end.

[44:17] Right.

[44:19] Should we have this on our mind

[44:21] as we're talking to these consulting firms

[44:23] about the Prospect Street, which is a new survey.

[44:31] I think the question is whether or not the scope of work.

[44:33] We'll have both kinds of,

[44:35] We'll have those two processes going and we'll figure out how to structure that one week.

[44:42] Yeah, I would suggest that if you're, that, so you don't have to do it twice.

[44:47] Yeah.

[44:47] That the scope of work for, for the RFP would include this review of properties that need

[44:53] to have a second look because the potential changes since 1986.

[44:57] I hope we just add that to the scruffle work.

[45:00] Can I also, I know our focus, our next focus is prospect, and then Montress would

[45:06] have her homes, but I think if there's, I think whenever you look at this book you're

[45:10] going to look at like a group of homes. If there's others that fall outside of

[45:14] those two neighborhoods that you think should be looked at as well, I would

[45:18] include those. So it should say you're gonna give them a list of this many

[45:23] places. You're gonna have a set list of homes that they're gonna look at, but

[45:27] that doesn't necessarily have to be all of Prospect.

[45:29] Because I think you guys have designated homes in mind

[45:32] that you wanted to look at again, right?

[45:34] It's not everywhere.

[45:36] Well, I think what we're gonna do is

[45:39] we're gonna do the mantras with the ones,

[45:42] these guys will have to look at some of them,

[45:44] not many of them, and then Prospect Street.

[45:48] Outside of those districts,

[45:51] I don't think we've decided what we're doing yet.

[45:53] So, for example, there's a proposed Clark Street, but I think, do we have to, do they

[46:01] have to have like a vote to decide whether they want to be a historic district or something?

[46:06] I saw that for some other time, 50% or more had to agree to.

[46:12] But we could designate individual homes.

[46:16] But keep in mind that if the district or the homes are not in the master plan then you

[46:26] have to either amend the master plan or the council can vote, a majority vote to approve

[46:34] and will not withstand the fact that it's not in the master plan.

[46:37] There are some mid-century houses I think that we should probably also be including.

[46:43] Yeah, but I think it's just order and we're doing, we're doing mantros, then we're going to do prospects.

[46:49] Yeah, just if anyone knows of any to sort of start working on a, you know, a tentative list so that we don't have to track them all down.

[46:56] It might, it might be just from your common knowledge that there were properties that, you know, they have to be designated first before you can regulate them.

[47:04] So if there's one that's coming down next week, it's too late, right?

[47:07] But if there are particularly important properties that you think should be designated to protect them in the future

[47:14] so we don't have a situation like we had over on Ridge Road, Ridgewood Road,

[47:21] then you probably start making that list.

[47:26] For purposes of informal consultation with these survey firms,

[47:31] should we try and at least have an idea of the number of properties that they might be dealing with

[47:38] so that they have a sense of whether this is a big project or...

[47:43] I think we'd have that number for the Prospect Street Historic District Town.

[47:49] I think I have to find out if they're going to do them like, you know, dollars per house

[47:52] or did we get a quantity discount or what? I don't know.

[47:56] Yeah, well, that's definitely part of it and we have to know what it's gonna cost

[48:01] Jacob, I think you're right. I think that was

[48:04] That number was in my memo

[48:06] I

[48:09] just want to bring up the 99 boats again. That is not in Montrose

[48:17] No, it is the 99 both Street is not in Montrose. So it's it's not part of the Montrose Park district

[48:25] So then it's not regulated. Yeah

[48:28] And I think it's also, I don't know,

[48:30] is that a commercial building?

[48:31] I believe so.

[48:32] So it would not go to the Port of Adjustment either

[48:34] for changes to it or go to the plan?

[48:37] Well, I can't write them a letter

[48:39] about demolition by neglect of a house that's not regulated.

[48:41] Right, it's not, I don't think it is.

[48:43] All right, everyone.

[48:46] The reason I looked it up because the demolition

[48:50] by neglect says that in a district,

[48:54] a historic, an officially designated historic landmark

[48:58] or contributing structure within a historic district

[49:03] shall not be allowed to be deteriorated by neglect.

[49:07] So I wanted to see if

[49:11] it was contributing

[49:13] and it's-

[49:13] It's not in the role.

[49:14] It's not in the role.

[49:15] Yeah, it's not in the district, yep.

[49:19] Okay, anybody else have anything for the subcommittee?

[49:23] No?

[49:24] Public comment?

[49:25] I just want to mention,

[49:27] those of you that weren't here,

[49:28] you're going to get a memo from me

[49:29] about proposed federal regulations that will significantly curtail gut of the Section 106

[49:39] process that the administration has proposed, and there'll be an opportunity.

[49:45] It hasn't gone to the Federal Register yet, but when it does, there'll be a great human

[49:51] cry across the country, so you might want to maybe even participate in that comment.

[49:58] I'm sending it out to, you know, all the people I represent.

[50:03] So now I have another question for you, William.

[50:07] So now we've done what we need to do for the houses that we've done.

[50:12] Do I have to, if I come up with another list, and I guess I can do another 20,

[50:16] because obviously it wasn't that bad, do I have to wait and give that to the

[50:28] commission first

[50:30] And say this is what I want to designate and then notice or can I come up with a list to give it to Jetty?

[50:35] It's a can you notice?

[50:37] I mean, I'm just picking. I mean you you want to give

[50:41] Chairman's discretion to pick the next list or do you want to see the list first?

[50:47] I think the committee had to approve doesn't the committee have to the Commission have to approve?

[50:52] I mean we're doing an action. Yeah, but I mean we're doing all of them. It's just the order in which we're doing that I

[50:59] I mean, would that require a vote in a meeting or is this something we can just do in an email?

[51:04] I was thinking that too.

[51:06] I was like, maybe what we do is give them to Jettie.

[51:09] Jettie sends out an email to a group, you know, just don't communicate between each other on it, right?

[51:16] But what I would do is we can work on this.

[51:19] But in the email to say, if you have any concerns about any property on this list, you know, let Jettie know, let me know, and we can do it.

[51:27] I would have come up with a list but I figured this would be such a long and tiresome meeting

[51:31] that I wanted to see how it went before I did it and nobody had any complaints.

[51:37] Thank you.

[51:38] Right.

[51:39] I just feel like we should say we're going to designate all other contributing properties

[51:43] at the next meeting and how everybody comes.

[51:47] I would wait on that because it'll be interesting to see who shows up at the council meeting.

[51:56] I mean they can always go to the council because there's public comment at the council for the second reading. Yeah, I'm playing.

[52:04] I thought we put that in the letter.

[52:06] No, you can't deny them their right to speak before the council.

[52:13] Oh, actually it's like a court. You don't go to if you don't show up the court, you can't go to the appeals court and say, well, I don't agree with what they said.

[52:19] Except that this is not an appeals court. This is this is a de novo review.

[52:29] I will not be here next month.

[52:32] I need some surgery, which you can talk about while flying.

[52:35] But so I will, I'm actually encouraged by what happened here tonight

[52:39] because if somebody else is going to fill in for me,

[52:42] maybe it's not going to be as traumatic as we thought it would be,

[52:46] but we'll figure out.

[52:47] One of my other associates who does these questions for me.

[52:51] I mean, in the beginning, I'm trying to pick houses

[52:54] that there's no way that somebody can come back

[52:56] and say, hey, that's not architecturally significant.

[53:02] OK.

[53:06] Motion to adjourn.

[53:08] Second.

[53:10] All in favor?

[53:11] Aye.

[53:12] Aye.

[53:12] OK.

[53:13] Here goes the gavel.

Historic Preservation Commission- Regular Meeting

Transcript