[1:33] On behalf of the entire town council, thank you for joining us. The council holds business meetings on the second and fourth Mondays of most months, and public hearings on the third monday. Public comment, always welcome at these meetings, giving you a chance to provide input on council decisions.

[1:50] In addition, the council holds a monthly work session at the Chapel Hill Public Library that is also open to the public. Please check the council calendar on our website for the most up-to-date schedule.

[2:01] Much about work is driven by a Chapel Hill 2020 plan.

[2:05] Our communities' comprehensive plan developed from the good ideas and input of thousands of residents and communities stakeholders like you.

[2:13] Our town council goals stand from the themes of that 2020 plan, themes like creative place for everyone,

[2:20] that we advance through policies and initiatives that promote social economic diversity,

[2:24] help integrate UNC students into our community and advance the interests of citizens of all ages.

[2:30] We support community prosperity with the focus on economic development strategies that enhance

[2:36] the town's open-to-business initiative.

[2:38] Open-to-business is successful programs are aimed at growing a vibrant business community

[2:43] and nurturing the increasing number of entrepreneurs and start-up companies who call

[2:47] step-by-home.

[2:49] And in keeping with the town's commitment to a sustainable future, we strive to facilitate

[2:53] getting around by providing a well-connected transportation network that allows people to get

[2:59] need to go conveniently and safely.

[3:01] One of they choose to walk, bike, ride, a fair-free,

[3:04] chapel hotel, transit bus or drive.

[3:06] To develop good places in new spaces means that we are strategically investing in downtown

[3:11] with improvements to Rosemary Street, creative art offerings and options to make parking easier

[3:16] and more convenient.

[3:18] And of course, at the heart of all our decisions to our deep commitment to nurturing

[3:22] our community and strengthening town-gown relations through close collaboration with the University

[3:27] North Carolina and UNC Health Care Systems.

[3:31] We welcome your input on how we can ensure that Chapel Hill is a place for everyone, and

[3:36] we encourage you to be active in town government.

[3:39] The town website has all the information you need about how to view the meeting's live

[3:43] on TV or the internet and links are subscribed to our weekly e-newsletter.

[3:48] Thank you for joining us.

[3:50] Working together, we can transform ideas into action.

[4:14] Good evening. Good evening and welcome to the December 5th Chapel Hill Town Council meeting.

[4:24] We have a couple of special events tonight. We're going to start off with our wonderful pack here.

[4:31] We have Pack 39 from Chapel Hill and they usually meet at the University United Methodist Church

[4:38] and they are going to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance.

[4:41] So could we all please stand while they lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance.

[4:44] Thank you.

[4:54] Okay, the flag is over here.

[4:56] Why are you guys here?

[4:58] There we go.

[4:59] All right, can you guys start?

[5:17] Thank you all for leading us in that. We appreciate you being here and learning about town government. It's awesome.

[5:25] Okay, I welcome out to all of you in the audience that are joining us here tonight and out to all those who are viewing us from TV land.

[5:33] I have several announcements to get us started off with.

[5:37] But the first one is I'm going to ask Brenton Hodg to come down here, please. Come on down, Brenton.

[5:43] I don't know if I know the council knows who Brenton is, but we'll get him down here.

[5:49] Bretton is one of our security guards who takes very good care of us and we are very excited to say that he is graduating this semester from NC Central and we're very proud of him.

[6:01] He studies and works very hard.

[6:07] You don't usually get to be in the meeting, so I thought we'd bring you in and say congratulations.

[6:11] We're very, very proud of you and you have done an just an exemplary job of making sure we stay safe and we're supposed to be.

[6:18] and taking care of people who come in and out of our meetings. Thank you so much for all

[6:23] your congratulations again.

[6:31] Okay. This morning, several of us were at the BORCH event. A BORCH is a wonderful

[6:39] community organization founded by volunteers. It was the Anniversary 7th year anniversary

[6:46] of this wonderful organization that collects groceries from around our community,

[6:51] sorts them and helps deliver them to our neighbors and families who need a little extra to get by.

[6:57] They also have this wonderful book that was written by children for children called planting hope.

[7:04] It is on sale over at Weaver Street and on the porch website. If you'd like to get there,

[7:09] it's beautifully illustrated. They did a lot of work with fabrics and colors. The story is

[7:14] amazing about planting the seed of hope and I don't want to give the story away. So I'll let you get

[7:19] and read it. But hope blossomed. And it's a wonderful book and all the proceeds go to help out

[7:26] porch. So thank you to them for being very involved in our community and being part of the

[7:32] wonderful community that tries to help everyone.

[7:37] Let's see. We'll go to there's a meeting this Tuesday

[7:42] night tomorrow night over in the Hargraze Community Center about the Amnesty station concept plan.

[7:48] It's a community-wide meeting, everyone's welcome to attend.

[7:51] I know there will be some council members there.

[7:54] I will not be able to attend because I will be in coming back from Washington where I'm

[7:58] speaking about our food for the summer program in front of a national audience about summer

[8:03] feeding food programs across our country, which is very exciting, especially if it helps feed

[8:08] more kids.

[8:09] We have to holiday parade this Saturday at 10 a.m. downtown Chapel Hill.

[8:14] Look for the bus notices of rerouting of traffic and buses, but it's a wonderful celebration.

[8:21] We welcome all of us to come out and celebrate the holiday season and it's a wonderful parade to be part of that.

[8:29] I just an update for those of you.

[8:31] We have pulled item number nine on our agenda, the library, internet policy, our wonderful library services director is out ill

[8:41] and she will come back and do this presentation for us in January so that item has been pulled

[8:45] for this evening.

[8:49] And update, almost all of us have done our racial equity training by the end of the year,

[8:54] the goal you aspire to reach for.

[8:55] We have one more to finish up the class, and that's scheduled for January, so congratulations

[9:00] and good work council, and thank you for encouraging us to do that.

[9:04] And Roger did his as well, so a lot of people have done their racial equity training.

[9:09] We have some great parking initiatives going on right now.

[9:13] It is to encourage more customers and patrons and visitors and whoever to come down town.

[9:19] We have free parking on Saturdays and Sundays downtown for the month of December.

[9:25] And we have also created 24 new parking, hourly parking places behind the courtyard area.

[9:30] You access that offer over some street so look for that and we have created some more spaces

[9:35] and we're continuing to create more spaces to help people have find a place to park and have a

[9:41] good experience downtown. So that's out there. We've had a lot of interest in our tree situation.

[9:49] I encourage people to go to our website. We are working on a tree replacement program. We have a lot

[9:56] trees out there that have had some health issues and the

[10:00] A, just some of them, and we're working with each one, please know that we have staff on hand that

[10:05] evaluates each individual tree in the situation in the needs, and it is our intent to replace

[10:10] trees and keep that tree canopy that we all love downtown and around the town. I think that's

[10:19] it for right now. We have several things on our agenda this evening, and then the council takes

[10:25] break from meetings until January 9th. So please be aware of that. Okay, so we will start with

[10:32] petitions from the public and know we have at least one person ready to sign up. Peggy or you

[10:38] coming up to show your petition.

[10:45] And again we're asking everyone. We're asking anyone who wants to

[10:49] speak to come sign up with our clerk and we ask you to hit the timer for us. For your three minutes

[10:55] over here when you're ready to start.

[10:58] I'm supposed to push the green button for us.

[11:01] There you go.

[11:01] Okay, better start.

[11:03] Okay.

[11:03] Where we plugged in, ran.

[11:04] There we go.

[11:06] I'm making remarks for a Proclamation and Resolution and the Proclamation is not at all controversial.

[11:18] I hope the resolution may take the members time to consider.

[11:24] I request Pam Haminger to make a proclamation as she did last year for the annual reading

[11:35] of the Bill of Rights at noon Thursday, December 15th, peace and justice plaza.

[11:41] This event is sponsored by the Orange County Bill of Rights Defense Committee and Orange

[11:46] County Peace Coalition.

[11:47] We invite the council and the public to participate in reading the ten amendments added

[11:53] to the Constitution before ratification by the states in 1791.

[11:59] Former North Carolina State Senator Eleanor Canaryard will make some remarks on freedom

[12:08] of speech, first amendment, regarding freedom of speech, as I said.

[12:16] The Green News will also sing appropriate to these difficult times and in keeping with a

[12:23] I am requesting the Chapel Hill Town Council to consider passing a resolution and support of the North Carolina Commission of Inquiry and Torture.

[12:34] Related to freedom from unusual punishment, actually touching amendments 4 5 6 7 and especially 8 as well as international treaties.

[12:48] I sent the mayor and the Council copies of the Resolution to be sent into the Carberal, Alderman and Orange County Commissioners also and put some copies on the back table if people wish to take those resolutions that I put there.

[13:09] I believe the resolution and support of the North Carolina Commission of Enquiry and Torture is an appropriate civil rights matter

[13:18] to address on Bill of Rights Day.

[13:20] Deborah Weissman, the UNC professor, who has vetted this resolution, thanks to Council

[13:26] for considering this important matter as we turn our attention to President Elect, who has

[13:33] voiced support for torture.

[13:37] I don't know how much time I have.

[13:39] I don't have enough time to read the resolution, but the resolution has been given to all

[13:45] council members and it's on the back table and I hope that Chapel Hill can take a stand on this

[13:54] resolution to support a North Carolina Commission of inquiry and torture. There's enough evidence

[14:02] and I presented more evidence to some of you about this. Thank you. Can you hit the off button

[14:11] of course the red button. There you go. I'm trying. Thank you and I will be there and I'm sure

[14:18] other council members will attend as well to do the read the bill of rights. Just to let council

[14:23] know I also reached out to Mayor LaValle about both topics. We're going to do a joint bill of

[14:29] rights reading together and work that allowed and I reached out to her about this torture resolution

[14:34] and our attorney, they both are want a little more time to look into this. So if council is willing,

[14:40] we'd like to refer this back to our attorney to give us more information and verification of

[14:45] all these things, then we could bring it back for January.

[14:49] We received and refer it to our staff, particularly the attorney, so that we can consider it

[14:53] for the next meeting in January.

[14:55] A second.

[14:56] It's been moved by Ms. Green, second of my Ms. Bell, any discussion?

[15:00] All those in favor, please say aye. Any opposed, please raise your hand, nay. Motion is unanimous. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

[15:07] And we will be there for the bill of rights reading, and we will coordinate with Carbro and our attorney and get back to you on the resolution.

[15:18] Okay, the county commission. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Any more petitions from the public?

[15:24] On items not on any comments on items not on the printed agenda.

[15:29] Okay, any announcements by Council members, Mr. Harrison?

[15:36] Well, this is not exactly an announcement.

[15:38] It's a personal statement.

[15:40] My mother passed away 22nd of November right before Thanksgiving.

[15:47] And I'm mentioned her to the general audience because she paid attention to this Council,

[15:53] not just because of me, but because she was interested in American politics as an immigrant.

[15:58] But 77 years ago, she came over to being exchange student at Furman University in Greenville,

[16:07] South Carolina.

[16:07] She went from right next to Paris in a city that was socialist, if not more, to Greenville,

[16:15] South Carolina, got her degree in political science at Furman University, and went to Duke

[16:21] University for graduate school because Carolina didn't offer anything, the Methodist clergy

[16:26] daughters, Duke did. That's why she ended up at Duke and they made her, Duke does things

[16:33] to their students. They made her be a French major, master's thesis, and to teach French.

[16:42] So she started teaching French in 1940 and kept it up either paid or is a volunteer into this

[16:47] century, so into seven decades.

[16:51] And she had a strong interest in this council not just because

[16:55] because of American politics, because she could interview me about the council, and, you know, she was my mother and a teacher, and she knew how to get the answers out of you.

[17:06] So, she knew a lot more about this council than anybody that age, certainly outside of Chapel Hill, of Carverro, and certainly more than anyone in the state of South Carolina by a lot.

[17:18] And she also knew, well, she knew about George, because George goes to France every so often,

[17:22] so I have to tell her about that.

[17:25] But she had two different people who said in the same language to me, she had a great run,

[17:30] a good run, and she was a friend of mine wrote, old friend of mine, and you were for many

[17:38] years.

[17:39] She said, oh, Adam, so sorry, the world already seems less civilized.

[17:44] She was a classy woman and I hope I got some of her good traits but thanks to colleagues

[17:52] particularly for sending condolences and I'm glad that she's an immigrant got

[17:59] welcome by America, took her a few hours to get to the country the first time but that happens

[18:04] to folks and I think that America is a place that she will be welcoming to immigrants as this table

[18:12] when those who married immigrants, this table.

[18:16] And as I said, as a sister, I'm glad she was our mother.

[18:21] We were very lucky in that regard.

[18:23] Well, thank you.

[18:25] Thank you.

[18:25] We do offer you and your family condolences.

[18:28] Mr. Santhiolo?

[18:30] It's best I can tell the weather Saturday for the Christmas parade

[18:34] is probably going to be in the height 30s at the time of the parade.

[18:39] In the visitor's bureau is going to be open and they're going to have cookies in one drink so people need to warm up.

[18:47] I think it'd be a great time if you haven't visited the visitor's bureau just to go in and see all the information they have and I think they'd be happy to welcome anyway.

[18:56] So bundle up and come get warm cocoa and cookies.

[19:00] Any other announcements?

[19:03] Okay, thank you.

[19:05] That brings us to the consent agenda.

[19:07] How, say we, it's been moved by Mr. Parker and second by Ms. Bell, any discussion about

[19:16] the consent agenda?

[19:19] All those in favor, please say aye, any opposed, please raise your hand, nay.

[19:23] Motion is unanimous.

[19:24] Thank you.

[19:26] You have an information item in your packet about the upcoming public hearing items and the

[19:32] petition status list, and just to mention, usually we roll out the petitions that have been

[19:39] available to be seen online, but they go into a different file further down so that only

[19:43] the active petitions will show up at the end of each season as we call it here.

[19:48] All right, that brings us to our first item on the discussion agenda to consider the proposed

[19:53] town acquisition of the American Legion property.

[19:58] Manager Stance will take us away.

[20:01] So, my name is Roger Stancele. I'm the town manager and I have a ten-slide presentation which

[20:11] would take about eight or ten minutes about the acquisition of the American Legion property. The

[20:18] seems like a great opportunity to accomplish something that could be beneficial and meet the

[20:31] proposal is as shown on this slide, is a purchase price of $7.9 million for the 35 acres

[20:41] of the American Legion property. It is the agreement proposes an installment purchase plan

[20:47] of three payments. So let me may say this again later, but let me also explain now

[20:54] the thinking behind those three payments. The first payment is for $3.6 million.

[20:59] The thinking behind that being the first payment is you are setting a target of 22 percent

[21:06] of your as your fund balance target. And in past years when you have had fund balance

[21:12] that went over that amount you would use it for dedicated capital purposes one time expenditures.

[21:19] So most recently you have used it to pay for the Rogers Road sewer construction and for

[21:26] meeting your OPEB liability.

[21:28] Later tonight we have a Rogers Road Agreement proposed for you to consider and that payment

[21:33] would be rolled into your annual budget.

[21:36] And based on your conversation in last year's budget you have now included an OPEB payment

[21:41] in your annual operating budget.

[21:43] So those needs no longer exist for funds that are over your target for your fund balance.

[21:49] So it's $3.6 million that we would be coming to you to recommend for capital expenditure

[21:54] or one time expended to or not an operating expended to it.

[21:58] So we use that as the first payment because all it takes to appropriate that money is

[22:04] an action by you.

[22:05] A vote by the council can appropriate that fund balance and make that $3.6 million available.

[22:12] Then there is of course the balance which we split into two payments.

[22:17] One do a year from closing and the second do two years from closing.

[22:23] My thinking was that that would give you a year to do some planning for that property, to decide

[22:30] how you want to use that property, to consider other partnerships and potential buyers,

[22:36] for portion of that property to meet other interests of the council, other goals of the council,

[22:42] especially the front part as it fronts on Legion Road, before you have to make a decision about where you get that money from.

[22:50] So, that money could come from a purchase by the front part of the property from somebody who wants to do something that's consistent with the council of goals.

[23:00] It could come from re-shuffling your priorities. There were funds approved in the bond referendum for parks and recreation land acquisition.

[23:10] You could reshuffle your priorities. You have the capacity to do that just spreading out how you spend your money.

[23:19] Then the American Legion, if this proposal is approved by you and by them, would want to go

[23:26] out by their replacement property, begin to plan for it, and build a place where they

[23:30] could move.

[23:31] So in our conversations with them, we figured that it's likely to take about three years

[23:36] for them to find the land by it, do the planning, build something.

[23:41] So, we, the proposal is that we, or the agreement that we have negotiated is to, they

[23:48] would continue to use the two buildings on the site for their purposes as they have been

[23:53] using it, including the land right around those buildings so that people could, if you've

[23:59] been to one of their events, or people were cooking out, or the antique show people were

[24:04] out in the areas, so they would use that land around the building as they have in the past.

[24:08] And we would immediately begin a strategic and master planning process to develop how the town wants to use all of that property.

[24:18] I'm sure that a great portion of it would be used for an extension of the park that faces on Ephesus Road.

[24:24] But there are other uses that you could possibly consider for the balance of the property.

[24:28] So we begin that master planning process, we'd engage with the schools to make sure that the

[24:34] park property was developed consistent with their plans and take that time to figure out

[24:39] how the rest of the property would be used.

[24:42] So the action that we're recommending tonight is that you approve resolution R8, which

[24:47] would authorize the town manager to execute the agreement for purchase, and to enact a budget

[24:52] budget ordinance is O3 and O4 which would appropriate the money for the first payment.

[25:01] Here's some kind of background aware how we got to where we are now. In 2005, the American Legion executed a letter of right of first refusal to the town if they ever decided to sell the property.

[25:15] In 2015, the American Legion offered the town the ability to buy that property for $9 million. The offer was declined because the town did not have access to the funds to purchase the property at the town.

[25:31] If you remember that was before the bond referendum, we didn't have available the funds that are in

[25:37] excess of your fund balance target and so it would have just been difficult for the town

[25:43] to be able to purchase that property and only had a limited amount of time in order to consider

[25:49] that offer. Again, in 2016 you closed the fiscal year with $3.6 million over your target

[25:57] fund balance and the voters approved a bond referendum which includes about eight million or

[26:02] includes eight million dollars of authorized parks and recreation bonds.

[26:07] In October, the Council authorized and considered a new offer by the American Legion,

[26:14] an authorized town manager to negotiate with the Legion in order to come up with an agreement

[26:19] that might be acceptable to everybody.

[26:22] In November and a closed session, the Council tentatively agreed to the terms of acquisition

[26:26] that we're talking about tonight and tonight we're recommending that you officially authorize

[26:32] need to execute the agreement to purchase contract. Again, this is the purchase structure

[26:40] $7.9 million in total cost, $3.6 million a front with about $50,000 in closing costs,

[26:49] and then $2.15 million in one year increments, two more payments.

[26:56] Again, the least structure would be that the American Legion would continue to occupy the

[27:00] clubhouse, which is a little arm, let's see if I can find

[27:07] the clubhouse, the American

[27:10] Legion clubhouse is right here.

[27:13] The dance studio is right here.

[27:16] So this would allow them to continue to use the clubhouse and the dance studio in the way

[27:21] they have been using it since they've been on this property.

[27:25] And if you agree to this proposal tonight, the contract would be submitted to the American

[27:32] Legion membership in mid-December for their consideration and approval.

[27:38] The purchase price rationale for the $7.9 million.

[27:42] We had an appraisal of the town had an appraisal done in 2015 and the appraisal indicated

[27:48] a value for the property with no entitlement at about $4.8 million and a value of about

[27:54] $10.3 million if it were approved and entitled for a project similar to what Woodfield had proposed.

[28:02] We also have other property sales in the area, which would basically justify the price that we are proposing.

[28:13] And under the current zoning, by right, they could develop or someone could develop a 144 unit subdivision on that property.

[28:23] And an estimate of value from several commercial developers would be about 50,000, 50 to 60,000 dollars per unit,

[28:31] which would put us right about this price that we're talking about.

[28:34] So that's how we established a reasonable price for this piece of property.

[28:41] Potential future use.

[28:42] Obviously there's an assumption that the part would be expanded up to some portion of the property.

[28:48] It could also be used for other uses including community civic space, and you've had a number of conversations and proposals about people who might want to partner with the town and developing the park.

[29:01] There could also be, oh, there is interest in commercial office non-residential use on the front part of the property.

[29:08] And a potential for cost recovery if the council is willing to sell some of the property for that particular use.

[29:14] Again, we would initiate a strategic master planning process, hopefully accomplish that within the next five or six months for the Council to be able to make a decision about how you want to use all of the property.

[29:28] So again, our staff recommendation is that you approve the resolution of our eight authorizing the execution of the contract and approve the budget ordinances, which appropriate the funds for the first payment.

[29:41] Thank you. Are there clarifying questions? Mr. Sancio.

[29:48] Roger, my understanding of the leases, the town will be responsible for the upkeep of the grounds and stuff like that.

[29:55] has the staff looked at the site and considered.

[30:00] Under any safety issues regarding upon the two issues, I would raise the dam, whether the dam is injured.

[30:12] Engineers have certified the dam as structurally sound. But more importantly, perhaps if the town is mowing it and everything, and it's town property, is there any concern?

[30:24] to say a small child could wander into the pond or something like that, how would we treat

[30:29] the pond in terms of regarding safety of citizens?

[30:34] Well, part of the due diligence would of course be the safety of the pond as a structure

[30:39] and the dam as a structure, as well as doing a phase one environmental assessment to ensure

[30:45] there are no environmental hazards on the property if we were to acquire it.

[30:50] The pond has been there for a long time as it is it's still would not be

[30:57] It would be encouraged to be used as it is now until something further develops. So wouldn't be a wide open park space

[31:06] That we would be encouraging people to come

[31:09] Be around the pond, but it would be the town's liability issue now. That's that's a little different than the current situation

[31:16] Right, we would we can have our risk manager review that make recommendation about out-of-protect the town's interest in that regard.

[31:24] Thank you.

[31:26] Any other clarifying questions before we hear from the public?

[31:29] So it's and to build on that as far as the building then we aren't responsible for any maintenance and repair and upkeep on that.

[31:39] The maintenance and upkeep of the building both buildings remains with the American Legion.

[31:45] Okay. Do we have members, if we have members of the public wishing to speak? Again, a reminder,

[31:51] we'll have you come up. I'll call the first name followed by the second name. If you'll get ready,

[31:55] if you're the second name to come up, we ask everyone, you get three minutes to speak to us.

[32:00] We ask you to press the green button as you start, and then it'll run through and you can see the clock running,

[32:05] and then you'll press the red button when you're finished. I appreciate it. All right.

[32:11] So I have Lou Brown followed by Andrew Ross.

[32:19] Good evening.

[32:20] I'm Lou Brown from the Meadows.

[32:22] I've spoken to you several times.

[32:23] If you'll speak into the microphone, thank you.

[32:25] I'm Lou Brown from the Meadows.

[32:27] I've spoken to you several times for all this issue.

[32:30] And I felt obligated to be here tonight to congratulate the Council and the manager

[32:34] and the staff and the Legion for working out this agreement.

[32:40] I also particularly want to thank the Council for listening

[32:42] to the public, all of us who have come and spoken with concerns in support of or concerns

[32:48] about this agreement. Thank you for listening. We really appreciate that. We wish to

[32:54] lead in well and we hope that they will be able to use a process from this sale to continue

[32:58] their great work. And finally, next to us, I'd say this process and your decision says a lot

[33:06] about who we are as a community.

[33:09] Finally, we, the local citizens in there would like to be included

[33:14] in this planning process that managed your stance

[33:17] to outline as you move forward.

[33:19] Thank you very much.

[33:20] Thank you. You pressed the red button for us, please.

[33:23] Thank you.

[33:24] I'll get better this.

[33:25] Where are we all learning?

[33:26] Andrew Ross followed by Diane Willis.

[33:32] I think Mike's going to join in Kate as well.

[33:34] If you'll press the button for us there, yes.

[33:36] Thank you.

[33:38] Good evening, how was everyone tonight?

[33:42] Let me start to introduce myself and I'll introduce the two behind me.

[33:45] My name is Andrew Ross.

[33:47] I'm this my third year on the as a community representative on the board for the Chapel of Farmers Market.

[33:53] This is my second opportunity to meet some of you and speak.

[33:57] And I appreciate the opportunity.

[33:59] I like to first sit my condolences Mr. Harrison and the loss of your mom.

[34:03] of course, I already hear that. Again, this is my third year on the board as a community

[34:08] rep. Mike Dupree is a, he's a vendor at the market. It's been there a long time. Almost

[34:13] since the beginning. And Kate Underhill is one of our wonderful market managers. And we're

[34:19] here tonight just to support your efforts to acquire the American Legion property. We think

[34:24] this is a great set for Chapel Hill. We also, I really appreciate, as a stakeholder in Chapel

[34:30] being updated on what actually is happening around Chapel Hill.

[34:33] It's nice to be included.

[34:35] I think I sent an email months and months ago about having interest in the American Legion

[34:39] property.

[34:40] It was nice to receive information about what was going on.

[34:43] I really appreciate the transparency.

[34:46] Again, we just want to really express the poor for the person to that American Legion property.

[34:52] And we ask that as the planning process proceeds that you consider the needs of the

[34:56] Chapel Hill farmer's market as you decide what you would like to do with it.

[35:00] I

[35:03] would like to, I think it's important that we reiterate that we are very happy with where we are, if you all are not familiar with our current location. We are located at university place. We've got a good relationship with the management there. We're very happy there. Our one outstanding concern is that there's new opportunity really for any sort of infrastructure development there on our end. There are farmers, markets that are successful, that have infrastructure, there are farmers, markets that are successful, that do not.

[35:31] We believe that having some sort of permanent structure is vital to the growth of the

[35:37] chapel of farmers market and there is a possibility that the American Legion could partner

[35:40] with us.

[35:41] The American Legion property could partner with us to look into that.

[35:48] Is there anything either one else for like that?

[35:52] That's it, just to support this effort and to continue to think about what our long-term

[35:57] needs are.

[35:58] I wanted some of you visit the market.

[36:00] I see some of your faces and we've had meetings about it and I've had emails with Mr.

[36:05] Stancele.

[36:05] This will be the first time we're seeing each other face to face, but I appreciate all

[36:09] your support.

[36:10] Thank you.

[36:11] You've pressed the red button for it.

[36:12] Thank you, Mr. Us.

[36:14] Diane Willis, followed by Amber Sheer,

[36:23] Mayor Heminger, members of the Council.

[36:27] Sorry.

[36:28] Mayor Heminger, members of the Council.

[36:30] Thank you.

[36:31] Thank you.

[36:32] Thank you.

[36:33] For listening to the citizens of Chapel Hill who told you we wanted a much-needed community park on at least a portion of the American Legion property as opposed to more luxury apartments.

[36:46] Though quite a few folks could not be here this evening due to the scheduling conflict with the important county commissioners meeting.

[36:53] I believe I speak for many when I say we are thrilled that the Legion responded to community concerns and offered the town a second chance to purchase their land and that you did the hard work of negotiating the sale such that it will be a win-win for both the town and the Legion.

[37:13] The town badly needs a community park for Eastern Chapel Hill and the Legion land with its RCD and modest network of existing trails, citizen-built trails, is a perfect site for such a park, especially since it abuts the small emphasis park.

[37:29] Combining the two areas into one larger part will be a boon to everyone who desires green space,

[37:36] woodsy walking trails, natural habitat, a buffer from density, and recreational areas, such as

[37:44] decent tennis courts, pickleball courts, and perhaps a pool or other indoor facilities.

[37:50] We residents of Connie Woods remind you, as further planning progresses, not to make new vehicular road

[37:57] connections to fountain ridge and feral roads.

[38:01] If eventually the town were to sell a portion of the land close to Legion Road for commercial

[38:05] or office development, that could mesh with the attractive brick office buildings across

[38:11] the street.

[38:12] Perhaps provides structured parking for the whole site and provide income to the town while

[38:17] allowing the bulk of the open and beautiful wooded areas to be parkland.

[38:22] This is an opportunity for the town to be proactive in what it wants for that front portion

[38:27] the site, as well as for the park. While we understand that the town has expressed interest

[38:33] in selling that northwest portion of the site for commercial development to help finance

[38:37] the purchase, now would be a good time to vigorously pursue other funding options such as

[38:43] government conservation grants or private donations that would maximize the amount of acreage

[38:49] that remains public park land and would afford the town latitude and choosing what kind of

[38:56] development to put on that portion of the property that might be sold.

[39:01] It certainly has taken much thoughtful reflection on your parts to realize what is best

[39:07] for the town and its citizens with respect to the Legion property.

[39:11] I applaud your considerable efforts and am anticipating your positive vote to buy the Legion

[39:18] property.

[39:19] Many thanks.

[39:20] Thank you.

[39:20] You press the red button for us.

[39:22] Thank you.

[39:23] And, for sure, followed by, and I, is Alan Huff, is that right?

[39:28] And there's a green button, right? Green button, you take a green button.

[39:31] Okay, thank you very much. I just, I'm here mainly to reiterate what Diane said.

[39:38] I've sent y'all emails on Saturday, saying basically the same thing.

[39:44] So, I do thank you very much. So, a long time Chapel Hill resident, when I grew up using that as a place where we would do things even in high school.

[39:52] So, um, anyway, thank you and I, and I, and I do applaud your efforts. Thanks. Thanks.

[39:58] Thanks, press me. Press the red button.

[40:00] Yes. Alan Huff, is that right? Here we go. Couldn't read your first name on here. Come on up.

[40:09] Hit the green button. Here you go.

[40:14] Hi. My name is Alan Huff. I have lived near the legion property for several years.

[40:20] And I think that it could be a valuable area for people who live near the property.

[40:26] Please vote to buy the land for later use.

[40:29] It would be better to have a person to give the land to develop for us.

[40:39] Okay, thank you.

[40:40] Press the red button.

[40:43] Got it?

[40:44] Thank you.

[40:45] Thank you for your comments.

[40:47] We have anyone else wishing to speak?

[40:50] I saw Ms. Kane get up at the right.

[40:52] Lynn Kane.

[40:55] Anyone else wishing to speak please sign up?

[40:59] Thank you.

[41:07] Press the green one.

[41:10] There you go.

[41:11] Okay.

[41:12] Good evening.

[41:13] I'm Lynn Kane.

[41:14] I hope you recall my previous comments about a butters like me suffering with mosquito infestations from the unnecessary man-made pond on the American Legion land.

[41:24] Today I want to make you aware of the frequent robberies or break-ins that occurred our homes,

[41:29] budding the woods edging the region land. About 10 days ago a car was stolen from a home

[41:34] two doors from mine and a car at the next house was rifle through. About five years ago the

[41:40] former owner of the house next door to me was broken into. For to six years ago the fourth house

[41:45] from mine on lock circle was broken into. The husband happened to return before five and found his

[41:51] and his wife's computers on the floor and heard people running off into the woods. And owner saw

[41:58] someone with a gun in the woods behind his house on Legion Road, I know a lot of

[42:02] circle part of me. Within the last five years, my house has been robbed. The Legion

[42:07] Land has a similar problem like Ram's Plaza about 15 years ago when nothing was open

[42:13] after 10 pm, no eyes on the street. And business owners told me there they all are broken

[42:19] into every year. Legion Land is mostly unoccupied. If the Legion posts six accepts the towns

[42:26] offered a purchase. A botters and the town need offices, residents, and businesses there,

[42:33] not a park, acknowledge the expansion of the EFSA's park, as we would feel had suggested

[42:40] as well. But not a park, especially since Chapel Hill cannot sufficiently maintain the parks

[42:45] we have. Post-6 deserves to sell their property at their own discretion to accommodate our

[42:51] increasing veterans. And Chapel Hill must continue to expand our business revenue

[42:56] To maintain our town properties many perhaps do not realize that the need for revenue and eyes on the street is the full bottom line

[43:05] So thank you to consider this as you go ahead with this project

[43:09] Thank you. Is there anyone else wishing to speak come sign up with our curler can

[43:29] You come up and to sell us your name.

[43:35] Hi. My name is Pam Torn. You'll press the green button. No, you're good

[43:40] My name is Pam Tim and I have spoken here before.

[43:45] I'm very excited about the thought that we will have part in the area.

[43:50] I live less than three tenths of a mile.

[43:52] I live in the colony Lake residents.

[43:55] I have been broken into three times in the past five years.

[43:58] However, I do not support the previous person's kind of a summarization of what is needed.

[44:04] I think in any area we're in density is increased and right now we have next to the

[44:11] cemetery, pardonments being vote, on Legion Road, we have businesses, we have friends

[44:18] Plaza, I know that in any kind of development and with the emphasis whole extension, that

[44:27] is always had to be looked into.

[44:29] I'm myself at a range of the police,

[44:31] Chapel Hill Police within the past five years,

[44:35] and meeting at the library to talk about the density issue,

[44:38] and to talk about how we have to unite our communities,

[44:42] that are especially within ten minutes,

[44:44] walking distance of one another,

[44:46] comedy works, comedy works,

[44:48] picker works, all of these places

[44:50] on your American Legion property.

[44:54] I don't feel it, so a major issue,

[44:57] I do think it's something that needs to be looked into.

[45:00] As you develop, you increase density, and you have to think about those things. But I really look forward to seeing development of the work and aging property hopefully if this goes through to be part space. I'm a former teacher, 23 years. I taught it emphasis on military school for November of years. So I look forward to it.

[45:21] Thank you. Can we have another person willing to speak? Do you want to come up? Are you speaking?

[45:37] Ellie, can I share your comments?

[45:39] All right.

[45:41] Ellie's being a little shy over here.

[45:42] This is Ellie to a verse.

[45:43] She's nine.

[45:45] She likes to hike, and would like to have this land

[45:47] because she thinks it's a good idea for a park.

[45:49] Is that right?

[45:51] Thank you for your comments.

[45:52] Thank you.

[45:53] All right.

[45:54] Anyone else wishing to speak?

[45:57] Council members, comments.

[45:59] Mr. Barker.

[46:03] Two things.

[46:04] First, I want to, I'm certainly on behalf of myself

[46:08] and I suspect many of my colleagues.

[46:10] Thank both Roger and Ralph for all the hard work

[46:14] and their staff put into making this happen.

[46:17] It wasn't easy.

[46:18] It took a lot of work.

[46:19] It took a lot of perseverance.

[46:21] And I, for one, appreciate it.

[46:24] I also want to thank Mayor Heminger, who also

[46:26] put a lot of time and effort into this.

[46:29] And I think it would be remiss if we didn't

[46:31] acknowledge our efforts.

[46:34] I think that this, a number of us have been asked on our return from Boulder, what we learned

[46:43] and how we might use it in Chapel Hill, and one of the things I learned in Boulder was

[46:48] the importance of thinking for our head and buying land and doing land banking so that

[46:54] a town can meet its goals.

[46:57] And I think this in part certainly influenced me in this decision and perhaps some of

[47:02] colleagues I won't speak for them. So I think this for me was a tangible outcome of the time that

[47:09] at least I spent in Boulder learning how they do things there. I am really excited that we're able

[47:14] to do this. I think it's an opportunity for us as a town to control our destiny and rather than

[47:22] always reacting to someone else's proposals for us now to sort of literally put our money where

[47:29] mouths are, and go and come up with a plan that for this land that will need the needs

[47:38] of the residents of Chapel Hill, writ large. As the manager alluded to, we want to see

[47:46] a mix of uses on this site, or we suspect we do, and we want to engage in a planning process

[47:53] over the next however long. So hopefully sooner rather than later. In that regard, I'd like to

[48:00] add a couple of them, a friendly, so to speak, amendment to the resolution before us tonight.

[48:06] That just memorializes some of the things we talked about. Ralph has a copy and can put it up on the screen.

[48:14] I have hard copies here that I can, that I'd like to distribute to my colleagues up here at the

[48:21] And then people will bear with me.

[48:24] I will read it unless people want to read it themselves.

[48:27] Yeah, you're a little far away from Mike.

[48:30] Some of the problems I really have.

[48:32] Would you be willing to let people read this over and make their comments?

[48:34] And we can come back to the resolutions.

[48:36] Sure.

[48:36] Because we can hear other comments.

[48:38] And then we can decide that we can do.

[48:41] It's on the screen.

[48:43] Yeah.

[48:45] So it gives people a chance and we'll come back.

[48:47] Sure.

[48:47] Yeah, somebody's voting on at this point.

[48:49] Yeah, just to read it over and then we'll come back.

[48:51] I'll come back to you for the resolution.

[48:53] Okay, fine.

[48:54] So, but again, I'm just really excited about this.

[48:58] I think it's an opportunity for the town and I'm really glad

[49:04] that we're able to do this.

[49:06] Great.

[49:06] Other comments?

[49:09] Ms. Anderson?

[49:16] I'd also like to thank Mayor Heminger for all the hours as well

[49:21] as the town manager in the town attorney and the staff.

[49:23] I would just echo what Michael said.

[49:25] I know this has been a lot of work for all parties involved.

[49:30] I'd also like to thank the public for coming out

[49:32] and for engaging with us and giving your ideas

[49:36] and helping us through, I think,

[49:38] what was kind of a tough decision for folks.

[49:41] And I'm really excited about the opportunity.

[49:43] I think it's wonderful.

[49:45] I do also, I would really like to stress

[49:49] that I think it's important that we do

[49:51] That planning process and really think carefully about what we want there that we don't just, you know, I think it makes sense to sell off the front to pay for the back.

[50:00] But I really want us to be thoughtful and deliberative about what we decide goes there. And I think there's going to be more opportunity for us to work as a community and figuring out what that looks like.

[50:13] So I'm really excited and I just want to thank everybody again for all the hard work.

[50:19] Mr. Seancella?

[50:20] Yeah, I want to thank everyone that's been thank all right.

[50:23] But I also want to thank Diane Willis who took me on a wonderful walk of the property.

[50:29] I guess a month or two ago was a nice day and it was a good day for walking.

[50:36] I think only with somebody who knows the property could you really understand what was there and what's worth preserving.

[50:44] So I thank her for that.

[50:48] I think that this is a great opportunity for the town.

[50:51] I'm glad that we had a good year last year.

[50:53] I had an access in the fund balance so that we could do it.

[50:58] And I look forward to the planning process to see how we can make this work.

[51:04] Not only with some potential commercial that might bring some revenue,

[51:08] but also with some of the civic uses that people have talked about.

[51:12] So I think it'll be a win-win for everyone, so thank you.

[51:17] I'm going to just add one comment and then I'll come to you.

[51:19] I want to say, and all the thank yous, a really big thank you goes for the Legion community as

[51:24] well.

[51:24] They have been wonderful community partners willing to open up, rethink, re-look, and have

[51:29] discussion with us.

[51:30] And I don't want you to think that we're not very, very grateful that you are willing

[51:34] to come back to the table and talk with us.

[51:36] So make sure that got out there and make sure you heard that message.

[51:39] Miss Oates.

[51:41] It was basically what I was going to say and also to thank, to thank you for your patients

[51:46] and perseverance and the staff and the community for being involved as well.

[51:51] And I would like to encourage the community to stay involved as we go through the planning

[51:56] process.

[51:57] Ms. Palmer?

[52:01] We have all received a lot of emails and, unlike the comments tonight, there have been

[52:09] some people that have emailed the council and said we oppose this or we have problems with

[52:16] that and one of the issues that has been brought up is it took us years and a lot of work

[52:22] to find half a million dollars to put sewers in the Rogers Road community how come we can

[52:31] overnight, find $7.9 million, so, and I think it's a legitimate question, and I answered that

[52:42] online, and it's public record because it's a part of the council email exchanges,

[52:48] but I, and I think that's a shameful thing that happened in the past and just because

[52:55] we did wrong in the past, doesn't mean we have to continue to make bad decisions.

[53:00] So, I see public space well used as also being an issue of social justice.

[53:09] So I just like Mr. Parker said that land banking is important to fulfill the town's

[53:18] mission and purposes.

[53:20] So I want to be really careful and I hope of course that we can sell part of this and that

[53:27] there will be investors that will do some of the good things that we need in our community

[53:31] like office space, so I am hopeful that we will recoup some of the money,

[53:42] I am the liaison

[53:43] the council to the Parks and Rec Commission, and I tell you every time I cross paths with

[53:48] one of the members, they kind of shake me and say you are working hard to get that, we are

[53:53] expand the park, right? So there is a huge need in our community for recreational space,

[54:02] particularly for young people and for young adults that healthy activities that contribute

[54:15] to their wellbeing, their emotional and physical health, including dancing, including

[54:23] And I have this vision of this facility that can support an indoor farmer's market and convert

[54:32] into a dance hall for our Friday night groups that have been asking us.

[54:38] So I think this is an investment if we commit to work with Parks and Rec and with all community

[54:49] partners and all the different people, the volleyball leagues and all the people that

[54:53] have come here and make sure that it's accessible.

[55:00] And we can have tutoring space and teen events. So I am hoping that the community will see this as an opportunity, you know, and an affordable housing in part of it. So I hope that the community sees this as an investment and that the people that are questioning, you know, this is because some wealthy people in the community are a little pissed at the council that then we find the money.

[55:30] And I don't think, at least from my vote, I'm saying I hope that this will make life better for all members of the community, including the hundreds of public housing and affordable housing residents of their area that will be moving in in the next couple of years.

[55:55] So I see these as an opportunity for us to do a very good thing and hopefully we will recover some of this investment.

[56:05] Ms. Green.

[56:08] Excuse me. I too want to thank everyone including Diane for taking me on a fun and informative walk at the property.

[56:15] It was good really to see and I agree with George. You really can't see what's going on there unless somebody shows you otherwise you might miss a trailer.

[56:23] Maybe you want to miss a trail, because some of the trails are not that accessible right now.

[56:28] I appreciate all of the thoughtful planning and discussions that have gone into this.

[56:33] I'm going to just reiterate what the manager said at the beginning, and said this Council is in a very different position.

[56:38] Now, then we were last December when we had a very limited time window and no funds to really make a decision like this.

[56:46] I think it is a very appropriate place for some open space in a park and that part of town,

[56:52] particularly to serve the growing population that we will see with the efforts for the development

[56:56] and already are seeing with the DHSC project. It's going to be a really welcome addition to the

[57:03] tale and I look forward to the planning process. Ms. Bell.

[57:11] So I like Michael Parker did take

[57:13] away the lesson from Boulder of how important investing in your community is even if you don't know

[57:21] what the in-product is going to look like.

[57:23] And so at this point, I am willing to support this investment.

[57:27] But I will not know the true worth of this choice

[57:30] until we actually do go through the master planning process.

[57:36] I am an agreement with what folks are saying

[57:40] about there is going to be a need for additional green space.

[57:44] There's already been identified as a need.

[57:46] And then we are made a commitment to increasing the density

[57:48] and nexus for the area.

[57:50] and so it makes sense, but I also am not committing in this vote that there will not be

[57:59] density on this piece of property, that there will not be connections to other properties,

[58:05] that there won't be other uses on this property. I'm not saying that there will be, but

[58:12] I wanted to be really, really clear that I am not voting to create a space where there is

[58:19] going to be a park in only a park.

[58:21] I really look forward to the master planning process.

[58:24] And I hope that we as a town can be proud

[58:26] of what comes out of that,

[58:28] because I think folks have worked really, really hard

[58:30] to make this opportunity of this land available.

[58:35] I really appreciate Allegeneres sticking with us.

[58:41] I apologize for it being such a long process

[58:44] because in the end, I feel like you kind of

[58:47] more the the brunt of us kind of figured all out. So I appreciate you sticking with us.

[58:53] I appreciate you leaving us this amazing tribute to your being here and being willing to

[59:00] share it with us and hope you will feel willing to allow us to visit you in your new facilities

[59:06] once you get there. We promise to bring gifts. So again, I'm just this is a, I had to make a decision

[59:14] about what's a vote for this recommendation or not vote for it because I do have some reservations

[59:22] about this particular process but also the process that we've gone through.

[59:28] I've been on the council for I think seven years now and I have never seen this town scramble

[59:35] and makes something happen as quickly that causes this much money ever that you know I don't

[59:42] I understand the question about Rogers' road,

[59:45] but I understand the question about other things

[59:47] that we have identified as priorities in this town

[59:50] that we let flounder until we come up with a plan.

[59:55] So in this moment, we're where we are saying

[59:57] that we can have actions without a plan.

[1:00:00] We can make actions with the hope of creating a plan that will have good outcomes. I hope that we see this as a model that we continue to use.

[1:00:10] That we can make an investment with the idea that at some point we will figure out how to make it come to fruition as opposed to what we have done in the past, which is wait for there to be a plan.

[1:00:22] If it's important enough to do for part space, then I think it's important enough to do for supporting our youth,

[1:00:30] it's important enough to do for affordable housing, it's important enough to do for other infrastructures that we've decided that we want to happen.

[1:00:39] And so it is with those thoughts that I will join, I think, all of my fellow council members in the affirmative vote for this.

[1:00:49] But as there is like this entire public record thing and if someone's really interested 15 years from now and wonders what all went down in this room

[1:00:57] I do want it on the record that it is with reservation

[1:01:00] That I come to being able to support this

[1:01:05] Mr. Harrison

[1:01:06] Yeah

[1:01:07] Ralph, can you put up my next resolution again?

[1:01:10] It disappeared

[1:01:11] Yeah

[1:01:13] Thank you

[1:01:14] Yes

[1:01:14] Thank you, the additional to that to the language you have on your right

[1:01:17] And anyway, there were a lot of things around it.

[1:01:22] I did want to thank the American Legion for hanging in there first for your service to

[1:01:27] the country that my mother adopted, appreciated your service there.

[1:01:33] And for the years of providing affordable meeting space, I associate your building with happy

[1:01:39] weddings and concerts and such, and we could have that same use again here.

[1:01:46] And also thanks just now to Michael for the resolution and to Donna for the important

[1:01:54] caution that she has expressed, folks need to be aware that we don't intend for the whole

[1:02:01] property to be a park, a lot of it doesn't work real well for a park.

[1:02:06] And I've been passing through the American Legion property for years very quickly, not stopping

[1:02:14] as a bicyclist, because it was a way to get from Fster's Church Road to Legion Road.

[1:02:21] Just bicycle locally, I do things, useful things on a bike.

[1:02:29] So it was somewhere I had seen a lot, but I'd say until this all started in 2015,

[1:02:35] hadn't seen it very well.

[1:02:37] Michael, and I took a walking tour, hiking tour really last March, and concluded with what he has in this resolution.

[1:02:47] I use a mix of purposes, mix of purposes, both public and private, and we would develop principles for it as a council.

[1:02:57] So people do need to be aware that I certainly stand the what I said in the original process in 2015 that has a

[1:03:08] I had to be a botanist of planning colleges that my evaluation was the most largest and most significant intact

[1:03:17] upland forest in Houston, Chapel Hill.

[1:03:19] It is.

[1:03:20] It's a big piece of woods combined with what's on that property and with what's on the

[1:03:25] school property and the particularly the town park property.

[1:03:29] It has, as Diane Willis said, a nice set of volunteer built trails, well designed, built

[1:03:36] for free with apparently historically permission of the Legion to do and I'd like to retain

[1:03:42] as much of that as I can.

[1:03:44] So anyway, I speak in support of this.

[1:03:47] Thank also Diane and some friends for a tour later in the year that didn't change my mind on anything that I thought we ought to proceed with this.

[1:03:56] But again, as Donna has said, if we can do this this quickly, there are other things we can do quickly as well, they're also important.

[1:04:06] So I will happily go to the support of this and want to thank all the folks who pull me into it so rapidly in 2015, it was never a bad moment.

[1:04:15] Thank you.

[1:04:17] I'll just add my comments as well. Echo a lot of things that have been said here tonight.

[1:04:22] And a special thanks to Roger and Ralph and staff for going in and really trying to make this work.

[1:04:28] And for the Legion group for being willing to listen.

[1:04:31] And for the community for coming out and telling us what they'd like to see.

[1:04:34] Um, I think it ended up, I'm hopeful that everyone feels like this is a win-win for this particular situation.

[1:04:41] I know it, new, quickly.

[1:04:43] Um, I also want to reaffirm Councilmember Palmer that I am determined to continue forward with the Rogers Road.

[1:04:49] Suer project, I explained to the individual who wrote us about that, and I'm passionate about that.

[1:04:54] We're going to make that happen.

[1:04:56] Um, it's long overdue. I've been very involved in that.

[1:04:59] I hear that.

[1:05:00] Here the concerns we have a lot of things we can be doing. I've hopeful been working towards the goal of that, that we bring in those balance of tax revenue dollars to help us do. The things that are important to our community.

[1:05:16] I just want to say I learned a lot from bolder ship too, which was inspired by the land banking that you can plan your own destiny. And it also gives us the chance to think big.

[1:05:25] We have an opportunity here to plan, we have time, we have the energy, we have the opportunity

[1:05:30] to dream big, think big, look at our needs, figure out what that means, and move forward

[1:05:35] with the planning process.

[1:05:37] And it's a really, it's an important process.

[1:05:41] I just, I really am thrilled about this opportunity and it was all about timing.

[1:05:45] It was very much about timing.

[1:05:47] We also have opportunities to partner with other groups on this particular property.

[1:05:51] We've had many groups of protests, both private and non-profit.

[1:05:55] There's lots I said.

[1:05:55] We can drink big, we can figure it out.

[1:05:58] And I'll be sad actually to see the leech and group

[1:06:00] move out of the Chapel Hill neighborhood.

[1:06:02] You have been here a long time, and we've appreciated

[1:06:05] your service, and I agree with Mr. Harrison,

[1:06:07] associate you with big events happening there,

[1:06:10] and that you've opened your land up for people

[1:06:12] to use the pond, walk around, do things.

[1:06:14] You have been a wonderful community partner.

[1:06:17] And I wish you very, very well, and your journey

[1:06:20] to find a new space that works well and creates a space that works for you in today's world.

[1:06:25] So, we have a resolution from a modified resolution and a men did, sorry, I'm just very excited

[1:06:33] about this this evening.

[1:06:37] So, do you want to explain to us what you added on here now, so I just want to make sure

[1:06:40] I've got in the comments and I want to tell us what you're doing with that.

[1:06:44] Yes, I think that is part of our discussion that went on both in our closed session as you

[1:06:50] heard tonight and going back to the work session, we had back in March, there has been

[1:06:56] I think a pretty consistent desire on the part of the council that this land being used

[1:07:00] for a mix of purposes, although there has never been clearly a great deal of clarity

[1:07:06] as what that mix would be, but that mix would be.

[1:07:09] And I felt that it would be helpful to embody in the resolution rather than just in the

[1:07:15] presentation, that number one we want to do, and mix of uses, consistent with the principles

[1:07:22] that the town approved, that the council approved back in June, and that also the very, you know,

[1:07:28] formally direct the town manager, not that he really needs our direction for this one,

[1:07:34] to move ahead as quickly as possible, getting the planning process underway so that we can start

[1:07:40] getting some clarity and to the mayor's point, have our big plans, Daniel Burnham said,

[1:07:48] make no plans, make no small plans. So that's the what's behind this resolution. I hope

[1:07:55] one of my council members will second it and then we will then be able to abode it in the affirmative.

[1:08:03] So Mr. Parker is making the motion for a prepping resolution R8 and O3 and O4 to be

[1:08:10] them all together just R8 with the amended.

[1:08:13] Yeah, R8 has revised by this and.

[1:08:16] Okay.

[1:08:16] So one at a time.

[1:08:17] So are you making the motion Mr. Parker?

[1:08:19] Yes.

[1:08:19] R8 revised.

[1:08:19] Yes.

[1:08:20] Ms. Palmer is seconding.

[1:08:22] R8 revised.

[1:08:23] Any comments?

[1:08:25] Ms. Oates.

[1:08:27] So I have a clarifying comment when you say the as outlined in the report to council, you mean

[1:08:32] the presentation tonight okay. I would respectfully ask that you withdraw this at least the

[1:08:41] first paragraph. We've had such a long process and I think a very exciting resolution

[1:08:51] to this and we've all had a chance to talk about and bring in the public getting involved

[1:08:59] in all of this, and what, I'm not sure what that first paragraph says that it's not already

[1:09:09] in the whereas that talks about the, or I'll can you bring it back out for us?

[1:09:17] The opportunities for potential different uses for parts of the property, which will provide

[1:09:22] benefits to the town and the residences, so that's, the answer to that is what's in

[1:09:26] whereas it's not binding, it is the only part of the resolution that is actually binding is that which says be it resolved so that's why I felt it was important to take what was already in the resolution and in the intent and make sure that it was embodied in what the Council actually approved.

[1:09:44] Then I think that's that's why I would I would respectfully act to ask the two of us for all that because we've we've talked in

[1:09:53] In various council meetings about no surprises and I

[1:09:57] Checked my email this afternoon. I didn't see it

[1:10:00] Anything about this as of this afternoon. So this kind of got put on us as a surprise. I would, I'm not comfortable with that. We have it really. I'm not, I'm not certain what you're thinking of in that first paragraph. So I'm not sure that I want to say, I'm affirming something that you believe, but I don't know what it is.

[1:10:28] I'm very much in favor of the town acquiring this property.

[1:10:33] I'm just this paragraph in here thrown in at the last minute when I don't really know what you mean.

[1:10:38] I don't know that I can affirm that.

[1:10:42] Okay.

[1:10:44] Okay, Mr. Sancello.

[1:10:47] I do support the addition.

[1:10:49] I think this goes back to some of the things that occurred in our closed sessions

[1:10:55] that some of us had some concerns how we were going to pay for this that we had a good year

[1:11:02] last year and because of that we were able to come up with the down payment but we have another

[1:11:08] $4.3 million that we have to come up with in the next two years and I think none of us know

[1:11:14] for sure were the economies going. We have had some down years in the town 2008 and several years

[1:11:23] after we're very down years, and so we want to make sure that it's understood by the citizens,

[1:11:30] and I think that was Michael's intent, that the likelihood that this could all be park is

[1:11:38] not very high because that would require us to find another 4.3 million that we don't know

[1:11:46] where it's going to come from. So all of us are not all of us, but certain of us in the close

[1:11:53] sessions when this was moving forward always said, you know, we need to keep the option available

[1:11:59] to generate some revenue that would help pay that additional 4.3 million.

[1:12:05] And so that's where I think Michael is coming from and I certainly support that because

[1:12:11] and I hope the citizens understand that we don't know where the 4.3 million is going to come from.

[1:12:17] We can raise it, no problem.

[1:12:20] We can raise taxes that would be about six cents on the tax rate, which would raise that,

[1:12:26] but I don't think anybody here actually wants to see it.

[1:12:29] So we just want to keep the option open that we might be able to generate some revenue

[1:12:34] to help pay for the additional 4.3 million that we need.

[1:12:38] And I think most of us feel that anything that would happen would probably be a long

[1:12:43] region road, would still retain a lot of the area for Parkland, but we need to have everyone

[1:12:52] understand that we want to going forward, we want the option to be able to at least generate

[1:12:58] some revenue that will help pay you for the rest of the acquisition.

[1:13:03] So I support, I know you're rolling your eyes, but this is really important to me.

[1:13:12] What about if we took that whereas in the resolution as it stands and put that, is your

[1:13:20] be resolved rather than what you put down?

[1:13:23] I know we did get at least one letter from a concerned citizen about how we were going to

[1:13:29] use this property and I responded that all we were voting on tonight was whether we were

[1:13:34] going to purchase the property.

[1:13:36] And because that was my understanding, I didn't think that we were voting tonight and how

[1:13:42] we were going to use it, that whereas talks about using this in the best interest of the

[1:13:50] community, we're all on record now as saying that we need a way to pay for this.

[1:13:56] But the idea that we're taking something that was said in close session and perhaps wasn't unanimous

[1:14:05] and putting that in the resolution without any discussion, without any warning, really to

[1:14:11] your fellow colleagues here. It just it doesn't sit right with me. Ms. Palmer. I support this

[1:14:22] addition and I think it reflects the discussions of the council. I don't think that it's a good

[1:14:30] idea to say, but I understand what we were talking about when we did our retreat about trying to

[1:14:37] not spring pick things on each other without warning and giving people time to think through

[1:14:44] things, but this is not a surprise. This is putting into words something that was a concerned

[1:14:51] expressed and discussed very thoroughly that I think has been verbalized by several members.

[1:15:00] And I really appreciate Mr. Parker taking the time and putting it together, because this was one of the things

[1:15:08] is Mr. Chancellor said that was kind of a problem for some of us to move forward.

[1:15:16] So I would, I don't know if it's appropriate to move.

[1:15:21] I can call the question.

[1:15:23] No, it's to call the question call the question.

[1:15:26] To call the question at this time, and see if we can vote and find how many people are ready for it.

[1:15:35] I think over done with comments, we don't need to

[1:15:41] write.

[1:15:43] I would say I hear your concerns, the

[1:15:49] questions they call.

[1:15:50] The questions been called, and I hear the concerns, and we're going to go ahead and move

[1:15:54] for with our vote.

[1:15:57] So, the vote is on the amended R8.

[1:16:01] All those in favor please say aye.

[1:16:04] Any opposed please raise your hand, nay.

[1:16:06] The motion passes 8 to 1.

[1:16:09] Thank you for that.

[1:16:12] All right, and then we need to enact the budget ordinance

[1:16:15] in order to have the funding to do so.

[1:16:18] Is there a motion move?

[1:16:19] Oh, 3 and 0 for.

[1:16:20] It's been moved by Ms. Anderson and seconded by Michael Parker.

[1:16:24] Mr. Parker, to enact the budget ordinance, are there comments about that?

[1:16:30] Both of them, O3 and O4.

[1:16:34] All right, all those in favor of say aye.

[1:16:37] Any opposed, please raise your hand, nay.

[1:16:40] Motion is unanimous.

[1:16:41] Thank you.

[1:16:44] Congratulations.

[1:16:45] Very excited.

[1:16:46] Thank you.

[1:16:47] You don't have to come to any more meetings.

[1:16:49] Would you like us to come to your meeting on the 15?

[1:16:56] Thank you. Thank you. Thank everyone for as we work through this process. And I'm really, really thrilled with the outcome. And again, thank you Mr. Manager and Mr. Attorney for helping guide us and sticking with this. All right. That brings us to our next item.

[1:17:17] Consider, consider the land use management ordinance, text amendment, proposed changes to section 5.14 signs, and section 3.11.4.4, the emphasis for them district sign standards.

[1:17:33] That was a mouthful. All right, Mr. Paul.

[1:17:35] I

[1:17:42] lost my guess.

[1:17:45] Good

[1:17:50] evening, Madam Mayor and Council members. My name is Jean Poveramo. I am the development manager in the planning and sustainability department.

[1:18:00] Tonight's item is a continuation of the November 11th public hearing on proposed text amendments to the town sign ordinance.

[1:18:08] My presentation consists of 12 slides and should last about seven minutes.

[1:18:13] That's a conclusion of my presentation.

[1:18:16] The Council has the opportunity to ask questions of staff or offer comments.

[1:18:23] staff is asking Council to act on this item tonight.

[1:18:27] We have several applicants that are anticipating Council action tonight.

[1:18:32] And these applicants are hoping that the staff can process their sign

[1:18:35] applications based on staff based on tonight's action by the Council.

[1:18:42] So tonight's decision points are for the Council to continue or close the public hearing.

[1:18:49] To adopt or deny resolution R9,

[1:18:51] finding consistency with the comprehensive plan, and to enact or deny ordinance 05

[1:19:00] amending the sign regulations.

[1:19:04] Our recommendation is that upon completing your

[1:19:06] discussion, the Council closed the public hearing, adopt resolution R9, and enact

[1:19:13] ordinance 05.

[1:19:18] So during the November 11th hearing, four key considerations were

[1:19:22] discussed, they include allowing commercial center signs in the Ephesus Forum District, adjusting

[1:19:28] street frontage standards for commercial center signs, wall sign allocation limits.

[1:19:36] I will discuss these three items shortly, and a fourth item mentioned on November 11th,

[1:19:43] concerned comparing sign standards for Glen Lennox, Obey Creek, and Careway Village

[1:19:48] to the current sign regulations.

[1:19:52] Staff will present this information at a future work session

[1:19:55] when we return to discuss other sign topics.

[1:20:00] So, now let me go over to three key considerations. The first one I will discuss involves commercial center signs in Ephesus 4th of.

[1:20:10] The Planning Commission did not believe that commercial center ground signs, and these are the signs that are around 12 to 14 feet in height, were appropriate for the Ephesus 4th of District.

[1:20:20] The planning commission believe these taller types of ground signs were primarily designed for higher speed road roadways

[1:20:29] and recommended limiting these signs to the Type-C frontage streets in Ephesus for them.

[1:20:36] So this map identifies the two Type-C street segments in the Ephesus for them district that would allow commercial center ground signs as recommended by the planning commission.

[1:20:48] So there's one segment here on Fordham, and then the other C section is the extension of

[1:20:59] there's extension of a road that's proposed behind the days in, I'm sorry, the holiday

[1:21:04] in.

[1:21:09] Staff is recommending that commercial center signs be allowed in Ephesus Fordham and that

[1:21:14] they follow the same standards that apply elsewhere in the community.

[1:21:17] For example, commercial center signs are permitted on roadways today that have speed limits of 35 or 45 miles per hour.

[1:21:28] This map identifies the street segments in Ephesus Fortem, which speed limits of 35 or 45 miles per hour.

[1:21:36] They include Franklin Street,

[1:21:42] Fortem Boulevard,

[1:21:47] Ephesus Church Road, and there's also Elliott Road.

[1:21:57] The red dots identified commercial centers where such signs would be permitted.

[1:22:03] So commercial centers in Ephesus Fortem include Rams Plaza, East Gate, Village Plaza, Mark Properties, the Galleria, and the Vacuum Cleaner Hospital.

[1:22:16] All of those shopping centers, except the vacuum cleaner hospital, and village Plaza have commercial

[1:22:24] center signs.

[1:22:26] There is a commercial center sign currently at Ram's Plaza, and there's also one from

[1:22:31] Mark Properties in the Galleria, and Eastgate has applied for a commercial center sign.

[1:22:36] And that's the commercial center sign application we are currently reviewing.

[1:22:41] The

[1:22:45] staff believes these commercial center signs are appropriate in the Ephesus Fordon district for a few reasons.

[1:22:51] For example, as Ephesus Fordon district begins to redevelop from the commercial base of older shopping centers

[1:22:58] to development envisioned by the Fordon base district, there still remains a desire by existing business owners in Ephesus Fordon for this type of signage.

[1:23:08] In fact, as I said, staff has an application pending from a business owner in Ephesus

[1:23:13] Fordham and anticipating tonight's enactment of the sign ordinance that will allow these

[1:23:19] signs in Ephesus Fordham.

[1:23:22] We also believe prohibiting these signs would place some of the older commercial centers

[1:23:26] in the district at a disadvantage in comparison to the rest of the community.

[1:23:34] So the second key consideration I want to talk about tonight is a topic presented to the

[1:23:39] Council by the owner of the vacuum cleaner hospital.

[1:23:43] This side is located on Elliott Road between the Galleria.

[1:23:48] Here's the Galleria.

[1:23:49] Elliott roads at the bottom of the picture and extraordinary ventures, which is off the page to this side.

[1:24:00] The owner of the vacuum cleaner hospital informed the council that the current minimum watch street frontage of 100 feet.

[1:24:09] prohibits his business and others in his commercial center from installing a commercial sign.

[1:24:15] So this yellow line identifies the property line between the commercial center.

[1:24:21] So here's the commercial area. As these two buildings with several businesses.

[1:24:26] And our current standard for a commercial center sign states that you must have at least 100 feet

[1:24:32] of road frontage in order to put up one of these commercial signs. This particular lot does not have

[1:24:38] hundred feet of road frontage. So what we're recommending and the revised ordinance

[1:24:46] immense, immense, the street frontage standard, and what it states is that the standard

[1:24:53] in order to put up a commercial center sign would require that shopping area, not a lot.

[1:25:00] Have a minimum of 100 feet a street frontage. So, combining the frontages of the two lots, equals is greater than 100 feet.

[1:25:10] This amendment, as proposed tonight, would allow Mr. Proctor to install the commercial center sign.

[1:25:17] So, the final key consideration on note involves reconsidering the standard to calculate the maximum area permitted for wall signage.

[1:25:26] The current formula is 5% of the building's facade area.

[1:25:30] Council members expressed the concern that this formula, although appropriate for buildings

[1:25:35] four stories or less, may not be appropriate for buildings taller than four stories.

[1:25:42] We believe it is reasonable to limit wall sign area to 5% of the first four stories

[1:25:47] of a building's facade, regardless of the number of stories.

[1:25:51] We have included the standard and revised ordinance.

[1:25:54] So, when in this image, in this image here, this line is stopping at the fourth story.

[1:26:02] So, what is being proposed is that this facade of the building below the red line would be used to calculate the allowed sign area.

[1:26:11] Currently, you would be able to go all the way up to the roof line and include this entire facade.

[1:26:17] So, we're recommending that for all buildings regardless of the height,

[1:26:20] You're only using the first four floors to calculate the sign area, and that's based on 5% of that facade.

[1:26:32] So, in closing, our recommendation is for the council of the whole, is for the council of close to public hearing,

[1:26:37] adopt the resolution of consistency and enact ordinance 05.

[1:26:41] I'll be glad to answer any questions you might have.

[1:26:45] Thank you. Are there clarifying questions?

[1:26:48] Mr. Pucker.

[1:26:49] You know, just at a curiosity, you said East Gate is asking for a commercial center sign.

[1:26:56] Is that, where will that go on Franklin or on Fordham or on both?

[1:27:02] I'm fairly certain they're proposing to put one on Fordham.

[1:27:06] I haven't seen the application directly, so I don't know if they're also proposing one on Franklin.

[1:27:14] Okay, are there members of the public wishing to make comments?

[1:27:18] Please sign up with our clerk.

[1:27:19] I see her coming forward.

[1:27:22] I'm taking it that Christmas month is going to speak to us.

[1:27:29] Okay.

[1:27:30] If anyone else is wishing to speak, please come sign up with our clerk and welcome.

[1:27:37] Mayor, having our emergency town council last time I was before you, I came here in support of small business Saturday.

[1:27:44] And gave each of you bags and you heard from small business owners about how important it is to support them.

[1:27:50] In your bags, I don't know if you checked, but there was a older report commissioned by the town that talked about

[1:27:56] barriers to small business and signage was one of them and having appropriate signage. You as a

[1:28:03] council and certainly town staff have made huge strides and we are excited about all these changes

[1:28:09] and definitely support the staff's recommendation tonight. I really appreciate also you a

[1:28:16] commenting emphasis for them business vacuum cleaner hospital and it shows maybe some need for

[1:28:22] to accommodate their needs.

[1:28:25] We support staff recommendations.

[1:28:27] We hope that you will enact them tonight.

[1:28:29] And please let me know if I can be a resource.

[1:28:32] Again, of special thanks to Jean Poveromo for all his work on this.

[1:28:35] And particularly accommodating the needs and desires of small business owners.

[1:28:41] Yes, yes.

[1:28:42] Chris, can you tell me if you support the recommendation, including the 5% of the four stories?

[1:28:51] My understanding, I don't know if it accommodates Carolina Square and have reached out to Jeff

[1:28:59] Ferman with him.

[1:29:01] And I know that Jean has worked considerably with Jeff Ferman, and he said that the proposed sign

[1:29:09] Act Killer Square is within this range.

[1:29:12] But I think as we grow and as we grow with with taller buildings, it might be worth

[1:29:17] re-examining whether we want to limit it to those four stories.

[1:29:22] And I would like to know if there is any flexibility or a, I think I remember that the

[1:29:30] recommendation included something like 10%, 15% flexibility, right?

[1:29:37] So that there was some discretion for to accommodate a particular type of facade or something.

[1:29:45] Is that?

[1:29:45] Yes, that is stolen that is still on the proposed ordinance and to answer your first question

[1:29:53] This change with respect to the facade does not impact Carolina Square at all

[1:30:00] Can you put the off button for us there?

[1:30:02] Thank you.

[1:30:03] Got the red button?

[1:30:04] Yeah.

[1:30:04] Thank you.

[1:30:05] Sorry, I should say the red red.

[1:30:07] Thank you, Kristen.

[1:30:09] All right.

[1:30:10] Is anyone else from the public wishing to speak on this item?

[1:30:13] So I had sign up.

[1:30:14] Okay, Mr. Parker.

[1:30:15] Yeah.

[1:30:16] I just want sort of actually represent the views of the planning commission a little bit here.

[1:30:23] And I think now, based on your presentation, Jean, I sort of understand the competing needs,

[1:30:29] both of which I think have some validity.

[1:30:32] So I think the planning commission is concerned

[1:30:34] that when Ephesus Fordham is rebuilt, for example.

[1:30:39] And let's say we have the A frontages,

[1:30:41] which have relatively, you know,

[1:30:43] I think it's a total of 16 feet or 18 feet

[1:30:46] from curb to building facade,

[1:30:48] that putting a sign such as,

[1:30:52] let's say university square a university places sign,

[1:30:55] on that sidewalk would be pretty extrusive.

[1:30:59] And I think that's their concern.

[1:31:02] And on the other hand, I also understand now

[1:31:05] that where we still have some of these older shopping centers,

[1:31:10] Ramsplows, E-Scape, which have yet to be redeveloped

[1:31:14] and are still in the traditional suburban shopping center mode,

[1:31:21] a commercial center sign seems entirely appropriate.

[1:31:24] So I guess my question is,

[1:31:26] Should there be some discrimination between signs that are allowed for existing properties versus signs that are allowed after properties are redeveloped and we now have the A, B frontages, because I can understand their perspective that one of these commercial center signs probably would look out of play as much out of place

[1:31:51] Let's say on an a-frontage sidewalk as it would on the middle of Franklin Street

[1:31:58] On the other hand when you get to and we now have two types of B frontages, right?

[1:32:03] We have two frontages that have two rows of parking which is still a similar suburban environment

[1:32:08] And then you have the B frontages that only have one row of parking and so it seems to me that a commercial center sign on a

[1:32:16] to row B frontage, probably doesn't seem in Congress, but as you start getting to these narrower

[1:32:23] frontages, I am concerned that these, what are potentially rather large signs, not only look

[1:32:32] weird, but they effectively block the sidewalk. And so I was wondering, I want to get your thoughts on

[1:32:37] So,

[1:32:40] thanks for the question.

[1:32:42] We're expecting a few things to happen.

[1:32:46] So, one thing that we're expecting to happen on South,

[1:32:51] on South Elliott Road currently there's a speed limit of 35 miles an hour.

[1:32:56] We're anticipating as that develops and as you get more buildings,

[1:32:59] if it develops and you have more buildings coming closer to the street

[1:33:02] and you have more pedestrian activity,

[1:33:04] But the speed limit will probably be changed.

[1:33:07] You'll probably see a speed limit that's something less than 35 miles an hour.

[1:33:11] So at that point, the larger commercial signs would become non-conforming, and at that point

[1:33:18] the town can determine if they're still an appropriate sign for that street frontage.

[1:33:24] We're also anticipating there's a new building in between whole foods and the mark property.

[1:33:34] We're expecting buildings of that scale and mass would not put up a sign like a commercial

[1:33:40] sign because it would be out of place.

[1:33:42] So we're expecting that development naturally would occur in that the larger signs with

[1:33:50] the larger buildings would not fit in with the character and we're expecting that even though

[1:33:56] the larger signs would be allowed that the larger buildings would not come in and propose

[1:34:02] the larger commercial science?

[1:34:09] They would not be allowed to block the sidewalk. Correct. Correct.

[1:34:15] Because the ordinance requires a certain amount of unobstructed. Right, so there'd be a cleared space also.

[1:34:23] That would be required. I don't know if I answered your questions.

[1:34:28] Well, I guess it answers my question. I guess my question back if you will

[1:34:34] is that I'm always concerned or often concerned when we say we expect something to have.

[1:34:42] We hope something will happen and hope is not always a good strategy.

[1:34:50] So I'm wondering if there is in some way perhaps of building these expectations into the code

[1:34:58] so that we're doing more than hope.

[1:35:06] So, I actually am in support of the staff's recommendation as someone who has been to what we're describing as what we want to have as something denser and more pedestrian oriented, even though we're admitting this is still a suburban space.

[1:35:25] You still need really good way finding, and I've spent a lot of time standing in what looks like a courtyard, which isn't attached to, and sort of, you know, my GPS saying, you're at that place, and I can't find it, because for some reason the sign is so far above my head, I can't see it, or it's on the, somehow that somebody else's sign has covered it fine and it's on the other facade.

[1:35:50] And so I am, because of that experience and because of what were all the changes that are going

[1:35:58] down in that area, I feel like, um, airing on the side of allowing people to figure out

[1:36:05] how to get around, um, feels more comfortable to me, um, and I think kind of what you're

[1:36:17] And I think it is something that we have experienced mostly and my question, my question was the question about the signage on the medical buildings on Timberline and MLK.

[1:36:32] We have a crossing.

[1:36:33] We have a crossing as I was called.

[1:36:36] So during that conversation with another one of my council members, I expressed the fact that sometimes we all fall prey to preciousness here in Chapel Hill.

[1:36:45] And this idea that, you know, we control the aesthetics of everything and sometimes I think

[1:36:54] function just, the whole biz is that whoever's building there, the aesthetics is important to

[1:36:59] them too. That having it look jumbled or confusing would only confuse their clientele also.

[1:37:09] And so I'm leaning towards allowing within these parameters the market to do what it does in favor of it being easy for people to find figure out where they're going to go things are getting more and more complicated.

[1:37:28] you know, we have an altar down there now. I only knew that because I was driving

[1:37:35] by the sign and it was there but it's in the center of a commercial center. So, yeah,

[1:37:44] I've said enough. I'm supportive of anything that supports people being able to

[1:37:49] figure out where they're going and I think that this is one of the things we can use.

[1:37:53] It's tricky because we're in a place where the market is changing, it's going from

[1:37:57] redevelopment from an old suburban style to a more dense development. So it's kind of a tricky

[1:38:04] balance.

[1:38:07] I believe we are looking at design standards for this district. So the way finding

[1:38:11] and what you're talking about, there may be an opportunity to do something with the design standards

[1:38:17] to kind of address the concerns I'm hearing. I would hope not to hold up tonight's action because

[1:38:26] of that topic, but I think there's an opportunity to address it with the design standards

[1:38:33] and when we come back at a workshop, work session with additional information on other

[1:38:40] signage.

[1:38:42] Mr. Santhiola?

[1:38:43] Yeah.

[1:38:44] I think Donna said a lot of what I want to say, but I support the staff's recommendation at this

[1:38:50] point in time. I think not only the council, but the community has voiced support for trying

[1:38:57] to retain as many small businesses as we can. And I can't think of much the, I mean,

[1:39:02] I think signage is so critical to these small businesses. I mean, especially if you have

[1:39:08] new people come to the community, they look something up online, they're trying to figure out,

[1:39:12] okay, where is that now? It says it's on L.A. Robo, we're on, I mean, you know, you're in a car,

[1:39:18] you're driving, you're trying to figure out, okay, you know, I don't want to drive past and then

[1:39:23] I'm going to have to turn around. I think signage is really critical to the small businesses and I can

[1:39:29] see the point that, you know, this is going to change over time and as it becomes more walkable,

[1:39:35] it's going to change. But I think for the moment what we have for the most part are small businesses

[1:39:41] and they need to sign it and I think staff will continue to work to look at how this is going to

[1:39:47] to evolve, either with the design standards or some modifications to the science regulations.

[1:39:54] But I think for the moment, what we have a lot of in this community, our small businesses.

[1:40:00] This is the need as much help as they can get. And so I think moving forward with this now is what I would prefer to do. And so I'm comfortable with the staff's recommendation. Mr. Harrison.

[1:40:13] Gene, that's, I was, the map one was looking good, but that's also good. Those are all, I believe I'm correct, grandfathered signs under this, right? They've already been, you know.

[1:40:23] These were permitted prior to the Ephesus forum district for the district being enacted right off the

[1:40:31] sign regions we did in the last few years though right yes this would have could have that big okay and I

[1:40:38] sent it an email about what seemed to be a store of one store sign in Rans Plaza which I guess is a

[1:40:45] commercial ground site is a CVS sign which didn't appear to be on our front edge like when you're

[1:40:52] If you want to look at signs sitting on the top level, buses are a really good place to

[1:40:56] look at good look at signs, particularly with my spouse looking for signs at the same

[1:40:59] time as I was, we found everything you could see when you're stopped at SSR's Road

[1:41:04] Enforcement, so at least one of those.

[1:41:10] But as Michael said, hope is not a great strategy in terms of how things are going to come

[1:41:15] out, didn't work with the election.

[1:41:18] So, I am concerned, I mean, we're reasonably predicting that because we own Elliott Road,

[1:41:26] we can lower the speed limit to 25.

[1:41:30] We could also, if somehow we came up with the funds by the short stretch of FSA's church road,

[1:41:37] the single back to, I mean, basically would traffic a stop most of the time and that would

[1:41:42] be a 25-hour speed limit as well. I think people ought to be going 25 there anyway.

[1:41:50] So if you switch back to the speed limit sign, basically the state roads in there would be

[1:41:56] where you could put commercial center signs. All those, I mean, assume you're the six dots

[1:42:06] where we're talking about having them. It could be another center in there at some point.

[1:42:09] The dots are identifying the existing commercial centers that meet the minimum standard of being 8,000 square feet, and having a mix of retail and office.

[1:42:23] So right now that's happening.

[1:42:24] That's happening.

[1:42:25] Right now, certainly.

[1:42:26] In Ephesus, these are the only developments that could have a commercial in some of our centers.

[1:42:33] Yeah, the only one to do not have one is the vacuum cleaner hospital.

[1:42:38] Bill, it goes Plaza and East Gate.

[1:42:43] The three in the image I have here,

[1:42:45] these are the three existing signs in the district.

[1:42:49] Well, so it's a little more than hope

[1:42:51] that that's the limit of how many brown signs we have.

[1:42:55] I guess.

[1:42:57] Right.

[1:42:57] Okay.

[1:42:58] That's, I wanted to make sure of that.

[1:43:00] Okay. Thank you.

[1:43:01] Ms. Ots.

[1:43:04] You're talking about a 14-foot wall,

[1:43:06] though of science. I think there's there's way finding and there's there's hiding

[1:43:13] businesses on the on the on the sea frontages then yes a 12 to 14 foot tall

[1:43:20] sign would be appropriate but the idea is that on the A and B frontages those are

[1:43:26] going to be roads where the traffic is moving slower so that as you're driving

[1:43:30] by you'll be able to see the sign on the building and be able to find it. I think

[1:43:36] One of the things that the planning department understands is that we're hiring a, we've

[1:43:42] hired a designer to help us come up with this idea of a walkable, shopable, different sort

[1:43:49] of commercial area than what you would find in that stretch of 15501 near New Hope Commons.

[1:43:58] And for that, if that's what we do end up with, then on, on, for the Boulevard, we could

[1:44:03] have those kind of signs. But when you turn off into the shopping, the walkable parts, you

[1:44:10] would not want a 12 to 14-foot wall of signs. And I certainly can understand the planning

[1:44:17] commissions thinking on that.

[1:44:24] Ms. Green?

[1:44:26] I'll support the staff's recommendation. I'd like to move.

[1:44:29] I haven't.

[1:44:29] I just want to say I'm really, really supportive of small businesses, especially, and

[1:44:37] And as we are changing and developing, I think it's really crucial with all the construction

[1:44:42] going on, with all the different angles that are going on now, especially in this district,

[1:44:47] that we have ability for businesses to have the signs that people are getting used to seeing.

[1:44:53] I think I find that safer to have those grounds support sign.

[1:45:00] All the business is listed. I find it safer to look at that and look for where I'm going, whether I'm driving or walking. I know that they're in there somewhere. That gives me a sense of feeling. I think a lot of customers feel the same way.

[1:45:12] And that's why businesses like to congregate them on signs like that. And I think they can be done so far. The ones that are out there have been done in very good manner.

[1:45:19] And they've been informative and helpful. I love the idea of moving towards consistency with the emphasis for the district and the rest of town. It makes it easier to navigate our system.

[1:45:29] when you're applying for signs to know how to work the process, and trying to think we're

[1:45:38] able to get the, sorry, looking for that, less confusing, and I like them at I level,

[1:45:43] most of these tend to be at that I level as you're driving and looking around as far as,

[1:45:47] and then that brings you away, in my opinion, from all the businesses having competing, competing

[1:45:52] signs in their front windows and front business displays, it's there, it's work and it's

[1:45:57] So I do understand some of the concerns, but I also think in this time of growth and change we need to do things that help our businesses stay in business and be more productive.

[1:46:07] So I support the staff's recommendation as well, but I will move to Ms. Green now.

[1:46:12] I'd like to move R2, which is the resolution of consistency with the comprehensive plan.

[1:46:18] are nine, which one are two aren't we moving our nine. We have to close the public hearing and move. Is that right? Can we do it all in one? Okay. So you are.

[1:46:31] Ms. Green is motioning to close the public hearing and adopt resolution of consistency our nine and enact the ordinance.

[1:46:40] Okay, and just check in. Okay, so close the public hearing and adopt the resolution of R9 is there a second to that motion

[1:46:46] like muffled through. All right.

[1:46:50] Ms. Green, Ms. Palmer. Okay. Any more comments?

[1:46:54] Ms. Oates.

[1:46:56] We had a, I attended a lecture last week from an urban designer and he was talking about how the,

[1:47:04] But the signs on the individual businesses can be considered art, public art, and he gave

[1:47:11] some good examples of that.

[1:47:13] So I think that's something too I'd like to see.

[1:47:16] I'd like to encourage in our businesses.

[1:47:19] I don't see it as looking cluttered.

[1:47:22] I see it as offering some visual interest.

[1:47:29] Any other comments?

[1:47:30] All right.

[1:47:30] All those in favor, please say aye, any opposed, please raise your hand, nay.

[1:47:36] Motion is unanimous, so now we enact the ordinance that, or is it enacted?

[1:47:42] We've got to move the ordinance. Well, he flipped over. Put it back for us.

[1:47:48] Is there a motion? Ms. Green?

[1:47:50] Sure. I'm moved of five, which is an ordinance enacting a land use management ordinance.

[1:47:55] Text amendment to section five, point four, signs and section three, 11, four, four,

[1:48:00] on standards, this section 311, and this is Ford and Form District.

[1:48:04] Second.

[1:48:05] Move by Ms. Greene, seconded by my Mr. Parker, any discussion?

[1:48:10] I will just say thank you to the staff and everyone who's wondering if you're hard on this

[1:48:13] and trying to promote our businesses and signage and making a consistent, I think it's important.

[1:48:18] All those in favor, please say aye.

[1:48:20] Aye.

[1:48:20] Any opposed, please raise your hand, nay.

[1:48:22] Motion is unanimous.

[1:48:24] Thank you.

[1:48:26] All right.

[1:48:28] We are moving the library internet policy to our meeting in January, so that brings us to item number 11 to open the public hearing for the issuance of two-thirds bond to fund the purchase of public safety equipment.

[1:48:46] Mr. Pinoyer.

[1:48:47] Good evening, Ken Finoyer, Director of Business Management.

[1:48:52] This item is the public hearing and adoption of a bond order for proposed two-thirds bonds.

[1:48:58] Also, with the adoption of a resolution of proving a publication of notice of bond order adoption,

[1:49:04] I have six slides.

[1:49:06] It should take me about five minutes.

[1:49:09] The approval schedule for the two-thirds bonds included a preliminary resolution

[1:49:13] adopted by Council October 26th, and also an introduction of the bond order

[1:49:18] and setting of the public hearing on November 7th.

[1:49:21] Tonight is the public hearing adoption of the bond order and adoption of a resolution

[1:49:26] authorizing publication of adoption of bond order notice.

[1:49:33] On January 3, we're expecting the LGC, the local government commission to approve the

[1:49:38] issuance of the bonds, and we will be coming back to Council January 9 for an issuance

[1:49:45] resolution for both the two-thirds bonds and also for referendum bonds.

[1:49:51] Local Government Commission will conduct the sale as a competitive sale on January 31st,

[1:49:58] and we are expecting closing of the box.

[1:50:03] Two-thirds bonds are general obligation bonds that can be issued without a vote of the public. They can be issued basically in an amount equal to two-thirds of the reduction of general obligation outstanding principle from the previous year.

[1:50:20] So for as an example, if the town paid down $3 million of general obligation bond principle in 2016,

[1:50:30] it could then be eligible to issue up to $2 million of general obligation to third bonds in 2017.

[1:50:38] The actual amounts for us in 2016 was a reduction of principle of $2,190,000, which makes us eligible to issue

[1:50:48] 2,000 bonds in the amount of $1,460,000 for fiscal year.

[1:50:55] Our intended use of those bonds is to buy a fire ladder truck for $1,348,000, and also emergency radio equipment for $1,012,000.

[1:51:07] We're planning on doing a 10-year financing which will give us debt service payments of approximately 160 to 180 thousand dollars per year depending on the final interest rate.

[1:51:20] In November of 2007,

[1:51:24] 2015, the voters approved $40.3 million of referendum bonds.

[1:51:29] We're also planning to concurrently issue $9 million of those referendum bonds with our two-thirds bonds in January.

[1:51:39] So altogether, the two-thirds bonds plus the January issuance of referendum bonds equals $10.46 million that we are currently planning.

[1:51:50] The next steps in this process are basically tonight's holding of a public hearing on the proposed two-thirds bonds,

[1:51:56] adoption of the bond order are 12 and also adoption of the resolution approving the bond order adoption notice

[1:52:04] which is our 13.

[1:52:08] Thank you. Any clarifying questions?

[1:52:12] Any members of the public wishing to speak on this item?

[1:52:18] Any comments from Council?

[1:52:23] Yes.

[1:52:24] I know I asked this before but can you tell me why they're called two third bonds again? Yes.

[1:52:30] They're called two-thirds bonds because the issuance limitation is two-thirds of the reduction

[1:52:38] of principle for general obligations in the previous year.

[1:52:42] So if you paid down three million last year, you can then issue an additional two million

[1:52:47] in the current year.

[1:52:48] So that's two-thirds of what you're spending down, you can then restore as new bonds.

[1:52:53] Thank you. Mr. Harrison.

[1:52:58] Not a concern, but just to to the public.

[1:53:01] When we pay our Chapel Hill taxes,

[1:53:03] we pay into a debt management fund,

[1:53:04] which was set up at a decade ago,

[1:53:07] about when Roger got here.

[1:53:09] And this is a really great example of why we have that fund,

[1:53:11] and why we spend summer with taxes on it.

[1:53:14] It makes this possible.

[1:53:16] If you possible otherwise,

[1:53:18] it would be a lot harder.

[1:53:20] Thank you, Mr. C. O'Brien.

[1:53:21] can is the 9 million in the general obligation bonds that most of

[1:53:25] we could issue at this point.

[1:53:29] That number is based on our estimate of cash flow over the next 12 to 18 months.

[1:53:36] So that represents what we believe we can reasonably spend within the next 12 to 18 months.

[1:53:42] A lot of the projects are in the initial phases where we're doing pre-construction,

[1:53:46] design and acquisition. So the cost tend to ramp up a little bit more slowly. So that should

[1:53:54] last us at least for 12 months and then we'll probably have another issuance about 12 months

[1:53:59] from this. And is that there are 12 month limit between G.O. bonds that you have a way at least 12

[1:54:07] months before you go back again. Actually, no, there isn't that just is kind of a convenient

[1:54:12] space of time for us to get a lot of these projects that we're currently working on ahead

[1:54:19] of steam so that we're actually spending money and we're getting to a point where we have

[1:54:23] some degree of certainty about the feasibility of the projects and also the cost of the projects.

[1:54:29] And I presume that we're looking at the interest rates carefully with a little nervousness.

[1:54:35] Yes, as a matter of fact I look at them this week and they have bumped up in the last

[1:54:42] month we are still six if you look at the 10 year triple A municipal bond we are still six

[1:54:50] basis points lower than we were one year ago so in the big picture we are still in a good place

[1:54:57] however relative to a month ago we're considerably high.

[1:55:00] Because we hit kind of a trough in that last few months.

[1:55:04] Miss Anderson?

[1:55:08] Just from my own curiosity. So, is this usually how we buy fire trough?

[1:55:15] What do we usually do this for?

[1:55:19] This is kind of an opportunity that came up.

[1:55:22] This particular trough has had some serious service and maintenance issues.

[1:55:28] So it's a matter of timing, and the two-thirds bonds being available at this time.

[1:55:33] Normally, we've done a number of financing methods.

[1:55:38] We either do an installment financing for a truck.

[1:55:41] This gives us an opportunity to use two-thirds general obligation bonds, which are generally lower cost.

[1:55:47] So the timing to happen to be right in terms of our needs meets our capacity to do the two-thirds.

[1:55:52] And do we have a sense, is this kind of an anomaly that this truck is being a pain?

[1:55:58] Or do we have a sense that this is going to come again in another year or two years?

[1:56:04] I think that this particular vehicle has had issues over its, I think, eight years plus life span.

[1:56:15] And it's spent about 20% of his time being repaired.

[1:56:18] And I think it's also a function of the fact that it does get used a bit, so yeah, we are,

[1:56:27] the fire department is taking measures to make sure that their next purchase is something

[1:56:34] a little bit more robust.

[1:56:37] Thank you.

[1:56:38] Okay.

[1:56:39] Is there a motion?

[1:56:43] Is there a motion?

[1:56:44] Is there a motion?

[1:56:45] Are 12 and are 13?

[1:56:47] Oh.

[1:56:48] I move our 12?

[1:56:49] on the audience in the audience we want to make sure we

[1:56:53] okay so there's a motion to move our 12 by Mr. Parker second by Ms. Palmer any more discussion

[1:56:59] all in favor please say aye I any opposed please raise your hand nay motion passes

[1:57:05] Mr. Parker I move our 13 Ms. Palmer a second then move by Mr. Parker and second by Ms. Palmer

[1:57:14] like the Parker Palmer combination there. Any more discussion or questions? I will say thank you for

[1:57:21] working this all out for us and for explaining it to us and getting us in this wonderful position.

[1:57:27] All in favor, please say aye. Any opposed, please raise your hand, nay. Motion is unanimous. Thank you very much.

[1:57:33] I feel safe for already. Thank you, Mr. Bond attorney. That brings us to our next item on the agenda.

[1:57:41] We've just authorized the town manager to execute historic Rogers Road neighborhood sewer

[1:57:46] project interlocal agreement with Orange County and we have a revised resolution

[1:57:53] in the blue folder,

[1:57:57] so even with a part of the file, I think that's what we got.

[1:58:04] So this is another historic decision tonight and Chapel Hill is the first jurisdiction

[1:58:11] to consider this agreement.

[1:58:16] This is a map of the Rogers Road area, which I'm sure you're

[1:58:26] all familiar with. It is northwest area of the town outside the city limits, but within

[1:58:31] the town's extraterritorial jurisdiction.

[1:58:37] Highlighted here and the lighter color are

[1:58:41] 86 heritage lots that were identified by the Rogers Road Task Force and showing the proposed

[1:58:48] sewer lines in red.

[1:58:50] There are 19,000 linear feet of sewer, 3.5 miles of main line, 68% of this area is within the

[1:58:59] Chapel Hill extra territory of jurisdiction.

[1:59:01] The green lots are what we have come to know as passerby lots in order to serve the 86

[1:59:12] lots.

[1:59:13] We have to pass through these to get there.

[1:59:16] These lots will be served with a stub out and when these lots develop, those owners will

[1:59:23] pay for their sewer service, unlike the 86 slots in the historic Rogers Road area.

[1:59:29] Here are the calls that are outlined and shown in the proposed agreement, including everything from the community center to planning and outreach that the Jackson Center helped us with.

[1:59:42] The engineering and design acquiring the easements and now the Biggie sewer construction, so you had previously approved all the other calls.

[1:59:50] This just wraps it all up into one document and Chapel Hill share of this amount is $3.1 million.

[2:00:00] The county will pay for this by borrowing the money, and we will pay it back over 20 years, and as I indicated earlier, then that $158,000 per year would be wrapped into your annual operating budget.

[2:00:17] So this shows the procedures that Chapel Hill Carver and Orange County would pay the percentages of 43% each for Orange County and Chapel Hill and 14% for Carver.

[2:00:28] There are multiple ways that you could think about trying to divide up these costs, but all of the discussions so far have landed on this particular percentage, which is based on the 1972 landfill agreement that created the landfill, which is part of what we're trying to correct.

[2:00:45] the issues surrounding that location of that landfill.

[2:00:51] So here is kind of a history of where the issue has been in 1972.

[2:00:56] The landfill was cited on Ubank's road.

[2:00:59] In 2000, Orange County spent about $600 and $75,000 in

[2:01:04] installing water lines in the area.

[2:01:07] And people have signed up for that water service.

[2:01:10] There was then a task force created in 2013 that consisted of two county commissioners,

[2:01:18] two alderman, two council members, and two representatives of Rina.

[2:01:23] And they met for about a year and a half, and the governing bodies and tasks the managers

[2:01:28] to find a way to install the sewer.

[2:01:31] One of the exciting things that come out of the engagement process with the community is

[2:01:37] discussion about community first planning and resigning a community that will

[2:01:41] happen in this area that meets some of the interests and needs expressed by

[2:01:46] the people who live there. So that report is attached as a copy is an attachment

[2:01:52] to your item tonight and we'll make a presentation of that report in the spring of

[2:01:57] next year. So tonight you are considering a resolution to authorize the town manager

[2:02:04] to execute an interlocal agreement, and then Carboro and Orange County would follow and

[2:02:09] construction could begin in June of 2017.

[2:02:13] So the recommendation is the adoption of the revised resolution R14 in the blue folder,

[2:02:19] which authorizes that execution.

[2:02:22] And why it's different is that this could be there be a 2-party agreement between the town

[2:02:27] and the county, or 3-party agreement between the town, the county, and Carboro.

[2:02:31] All the provisions would be the same in terms of outlining the town to call us and how we would pay it back.

[2:02:38] This resolution would authorize me to execute an agreement whether it's a two-party or three-party.

[2:02:44] So we're not holding up moving forward with a construction of the sewer line.

[2:02:50] Thank you. Any clarifying questions?

[2:02:54] We have members of the public wishing to speak.

[2:02:58] Does anyone signed up to speak?

[2:03:00] Well, I'm going to start by making a statement that I'm very excited and very pleased that

[2:03:06] our town is moving forward to correct something that was promised many many years ago

[2:03:11] and I'm very, very pleased we've found a way to do it and that we're moving forward.

[2:03:18] Yeah.

[2:03:19] So, are there any discussion points or can we move this motion?

[2:03:26] I move off 14.

[2:03:27] Move by Mr. Parker.

[2:03:29] Mr. Seale.

[2:03:30] Mr. Seale.

[2:03:31] Mr. Seale.

[2:03:32] is seconding it? Okay, move by Mr. Parker, second by Mr. Sanciano, any more comments other than yes.

[2:03:40] All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed, please raise your hand, nay? Motion is overwhelmingly

[2:03:47] unanimous. Thank you very much.

[2:03:51] All right. That brings us to the end of our agenda for this evening. So

[2:03:56] wishing everyone a happy holiday season, we will be back January 9 for our next council meeting.

[2:04:02] There's other individual meetings going on with all your committees and assignments, but this is the end of 2016.

[2:04:11] So, with that being said, meeting is adjourned. Thank you.

Business Meeting

Agenda

Transcript