[0:08] All right, call the ask the city council work session to order here for Monday, February 24th.

[0:14] Roll call looks like we have all members with us this evening.

[0:17] I look for approval of tonight's agenda.

[0:19] So moved.

[0:20] I get a motion by Council Member Stelmack to approve tonight's agenda. Is there a second?

[0:24] Second.

[0:24] Second by Council Member Johnson.

[0:27] Any further discussion?

[0:30] Seeing none, all those in favor?

[0:31] Aye.

[0:32] All those opposed?

[0:33] Motion passes 5-0.

[0:35] Number four discussion items for a Central Avenue streetscape project plan.

[0:41] Lee, who's taking this one over?

[0:44] Jeff, who?

[0:47] Hi, I am Jeff Volner with WSB.

[0:49] And I have been working with city staff and the streetscape committee on evaluating the Central Avenue streetscape,

[0:58] which is, well, tonight we're going to go through and kind of talk about the existing conditions,

[1:05] some of the issues and then the recommendations on the streetscape committee, and then a few

[1:10] schematic concepts to discuss, and then we'll have some question time after that for discussion.

[1:19] So again, hard to see here on the photo here, but these were just Google Street View images

[1:25] of kind of the issues you guys are having out there with your pavers crumbling in

[1:28] the drive lanes, pavers crumbling in the boulevard in the sidewalk there. You can

[1:33] see in the sidewalk one panel it looks like has been replaced with concrete. So

[1:38] you guys are probably well aware of the issues out there on Central Avenue. Again

[1:44] kind of a broad view of the the drive lanes and what the pavers are going out

[1:50] there so not holding up and long-term solution is desired.

[1:59] So some of the

[2:00] issues we discussed in the areas we talked about within the streetscape so

[2:04] the traffic lane is one of the big issues where all the traffic is where

[2:08] the plows are hitting at the hardest where the pavers are crumbling and

[2:10] making a rough surface so the suggestions and the committee

[2:15] recommendations are removal of those pavers and installation of a more

[2:20] durable surface, a concrete surface for the drive lanes and with that evaluating

[2:25] some of the patterning or coloring and things that could go along with that.

[2:31] The second area, again vehicular area, would be the parking lanes. One of the

[2:37] ideas is to evaluate the use of permeable pavement in that area to

[2:42] catch some of the storm water and clean it and slow it before it gets

[2:46] in the storm sewer.

[2:49] As you know there's permeable pavement in the Boulevard

[2:52] areas now so there is some maintenance costs with adding more permeable

[2:57] pavements in that area. So just considering that the maintenance of

[3:02] permeable and the installation cost versus a solid concrete surface which

[3:07] would be easier to maintain would stand up to plow abuse and that kind of

[3:13] So, and with the consideration of permeable pavement, since it's not a permeable pavement

[3:19] in that area now, we need to think about the subsurface conditions there.

[3:23] So I believe that roadway is built.

[3:26] The pavers are set on concrete below.

[3:28] So that would be a significant excavation and I guess rebuilding cost to change those

[3:33] to permeable to have that water soak through the pavement in that area.

[3:37] So, the recommendation was to,

[3:41] even though there potentially are watershed grants available

[3:43] for permeable pavement and stormwater treatment, maybe this isn't the best place to do that

[3:48] because of the additional cost and long-term maintenance.

[3:55] The pedestrian sidewalks, so the actual walkway area or sidewalk area, again, existing

[4:01] Crumbling pavers are not holding up, there's some falling apart and some rough surfaces

[4:09] there.

[4:09] So, recommending a more durable surface or a concrete surface there as well, just for

[4:16] ease of maintenance and eliminating that trip hazard of the crumbling pavers.

[4:24] The boulevard treatment, which is currently permeable pavers, and they're probably at

[4:31] at least halfway through their lifespan.

[4:33] So some of those are crumbling and moving around.

[4:36] And just looking at it for,

[4:39] looking at the rest of this project

[4:40] or the rest of the street section,

[4:43] probably doesn't make sense to leave that at its half-life,

[4:47] but kind of look at the project as a whole side to side.

[4:50] So that could still be permeable pavements

[4:53] back in there or again with maintenance

[4:56] and the equipment with snow removal and that kind of thing, is it holding up as well as

[5:02] you want or is that somewhere to put a more durable surface as well?

[5:09] Within the corridor, looking at the pedestrian crossings, again right now in the City Hall

[5:14] Block, those are pavers, I believe, in the crosswalks, so looking at how to have

[5:24] those areas stand out and have the crosswalks be more evident not just a

[5:29] painted line but maybe it's a different color different texture something like

[5:33] that to include in the paving and looking at the idea of adding the

[5:39] pedestrian actuated push button lighting to signify when someone's

[5:46] crossing the street so we'll be evaluating that as well.

[5:53] The raised

[5:53] These planters in the city hall block, the committee is recommending keeping those, but

[6:00] putting a fresh coat of paint or a sealant on those to refresh the look and make them

[6:06] look new again, updating the plantings within those planters.

[6:10] Some of those, some of the comments where they're at an odd height where they block

[6:14] views when you're trying to pull out or turn the corner, so maybe some lower plantings

[6:21] or some higher up plantings that you can see underneath to help eliminate that view issue.

[6:30] The idea of potentially working with a local nursery to develop those plants or planting

[6:35] plants was brought up as well as part of the committee.

[6:41] Street and Boulevard trees, again, if we're looking at in the city hall block, if we're

[6:46] looking at replacing the sidewalk, the pavement, doesn't really make sense to

[6:51] to work around those street trees that are currently kind of outgrowing their space.

[6:59] So with the replacement of the pavements replacing the street trees as well,

[7:03] maybe giving them a little more room or tree grades that would help

[7:07] denote their area a little better than just the mulch squares that are there now.

[7:12] And then other amenities. Irrigation is in the city hall block in the planters and in

[7:17] around those trees and that would be repaired as needed more likely just the the raised

[7:24] planter areas and then you know beyond the city hall block the lighting the

[7:31] bollards the seating areas would remain those are still still in good shape so we

[7:36] did put together some schematic concepts we brought two concepts to the

[7:41] streetscape committee and got comments on that and from that we revised one

[7:46] of them to give a couple more options and again for discussion this evening.

[7:54] So the first concept would be changing the drive lanes to plain concrete so similar to

[8:03] what you have throughout the rest of the corridor and again this block we're looking at the

[8:07] city hall block and the elements that we would introduce in this block we would also

[8:13] slowly introduce into the other blocks as maintenance and replacement takes place.

[8:18] So, the main drive lanes would remain plain concrete, similar to the other blocks, and

[8:25] then the sidewalks would be a colored concrete, so a standard broom finish concrete, but in

[8:33] a tone or color.

[8:34] So, in this scenario, maybe it's a tan or an earth tone that kind of matches some of

[8:40] the paver colors that were originally chosen.

[8:42] In

[8:45] this concept, we were showing the parking lanes as, again, permeable pavers.

[8:51] They could be permeable with a simple change of the label.

[8:55] They could be a stamped or colored concrete and still have that paver feel that you have

[9:00] out there now.

[9:01] In the parking areas where they don't get as much traffic, don't get as much abuse

[9:06] maybe as the drive lanes and as many cars coming up and down, you can have a little

[9:11] a more decorative surface in there.

[9:15] Lastly, the boulevard, again, could remain

[9:17] the existing permeable pavers or like what's there now

[9:21] so that could remain a permeable surface

[9:23] or could also change to a stamped and colored concrete.

[9:28] And the idea in this concept is, you know,

[9:31] we've still got kind of the full range of color

[9:33] that you have out there now.

[9:35] We're denoting the different areas

[9:36] of the parking lanes in the boulevard,

[9:39] but really getting more durable surfaces in the main drive lanes and the sidewalks.

[9:48] In this concept, the crosswalks would be a different color as well.

[9:52] So they'd be the same color as the sidewalks.

[9:55] It would kind of tie that pedestrian access area all the same.

[10:01] So you would be able to see that as you're driving down the street

[10:05] that it's a different color where the crosswalks are in the concrete itself.

[10:09] So

[10:13] again, in the blocks beyond the City Hall Block, so long term as maintenance and replacements

[10:20] take place, we would continue with that colored concrete sidewalk, so that would be consistent

[10:26] throughout the whole corridor.

[10:28] The crosswalks could be replaced in that same way to keep the pedestrian areas, that colored

[10:37] tone of concrete.

[10:38] And again, the boulevard could remain the permeable pavers that you have now or replace

[10:45] with permeable or again switch to a more decorative stamped and colored concrete for a little

[10:52] more durable finish.

[10:59] Concept two we were looking at again with the long-term maintenance and holding up

[11:06] to the abuse that our lovely winters give this area.

[11:10] the main drive lanes would be primarily plain standard concrete with some

[11:16] colored concrete bands added within the block so that kind of breaks up just the

[11:22] the sea of concrete you know plain concrete and gives it some color gives

[11:27] it some some character similar to the banding that you have in your paver

[11:32] pavement now. In this concept the parking lanes are treated the same as

[11:37] the driveline so there's consistency where the vehicles are driving again with

[11:41] that that banding to kind of break up the overall field. This concept is also

[11:47] showing plain concrete for the sidewalks so again if there's you know every

[11:53] everywhere has got plain concrete if we ever need to replace another panel or

[11:57] something gets cracked or broken it's easy to go back in and and fix and

[12:01] have things match long-term. Maybe not as decorative as what you have now

[12:06] or the other concept, but more use of standard materials.

[12:13] And then here is one where we were showing replacement of the permeable pavers in the

[12:17] boulevard with a stamped and colored concrete that would match the tone of the bands in

[12:23] the pavement.

[12:25] So basically a two color scheme here, we're showing grays, again to work with the gray

[12:30] tone of the plain concrete.

[12:33] But a little different look of the overall block.

[12:41] And again, how that

[12:41] would be adapted to the other blocks as the sidewalks are replaced, you know, the pavers would come

[12:47] out and the sidewalks would be put back in as plain concrete, as well as the boulevards being

[12:54] replaced with the stamped textured concrete.

[13:03] So again, these are the materials we're talking

[13:06] about left to right. Left is colored concrete. I guess the left two columns are colored concrete.

[13:15] The second column is what the sidewalk could look like with a tan tone. Again,

[13:22] standard broom finish concrete but an integrated or an integral color that would give it that

[13:27] softer warmer tone to it.

[13:33] The column on the right permeable pavers again they come

[13:36] in different shapes, textures, sizes from what you have now.

[13:40] So if we choose to maintain that type of pavement,

[13:44] we can get a slightly different look

[13:46] or keep similar to what you have now.

[13:49] And then I guess the second column from the right

[13:53] are different textures of stamped and colored concrete.

[13:57] So a little bit more decorative concrete could be used.

[14:02] We were thinking more in the boulevards

[14:04] than the drive lanes or the crosswalks

[14:07] because with vehicular traffic that patterning can wear a little more and show wear patterns

[14:16] and is a little more costly to put in to get that stamp and color.

[14:21] So

[14:23] the preferred concept with the streetscape committee was the first one.

[14:28] So we went ahead and put together with some recommendations some other alternatives based on that first concept.

[14:35] So this one again the main drive lanes would stay plain concrete through the

[14:42] whole block with the crosswalks having a different tone or different color to

[14:46] to make them stand out. The parking lanes would be similar color but a

[14:57] plain a colored concrete in a standard finish.

[15:01] In the parking lanes. So not a permeable pavement, but a different color just to denote those parking lanes.

[15:09] The sidewalks in this scenario would change to plain concrete. So plain gray concrete.

[15:16] And then the boulevard would have the colored, stamped, textured concrete.

[15:22] concrete. This concept had more of the gray tones, again, kind of shifting from the earth

[15:29] tones that you have now, simply to kind of work with standard materials with the gray

[15:36] tones of the plain concrete, darker tones in the parking lanes for turning tires, and

[15:42] things like that where they get dirty would not show as much in this concept, but a different

[15:49] look overall than what you have out there now.

[15:56] And then concept we're calling 1C,

[15:59] another variation on that first concept. Again, standard concrete in the drive

[16:05] lanes, the parking lanes would have a different texture or stamp to them or

[16:14] different scoring in the parking lanes and the crosswalks, but again plain

[16:18] concrete and in this one the sidewalks of the pedestrian areas have the similar

[16:23] color tones that you currently have so the tans and the sidewalk the boulevard

[16:28] could have more of that brown earthy tone whether it's a permeable pavement

[16:34] whether it's a stamped and colored concrete but would have kind of a blend

[16:38] of the colors of your current current streetscape and then as you as you phase

[16:47] it in. I'm assuming this is the first block that will be addressed. You wouldn't have

[16:51] that totally different look as you phase it into the other blocks.

[17:02] So that's really what

[17:03] I had quickly to go through as far as concepts. So I guess I'd like to open it up for your

[17:07] discussion.

[17:09] What's all our questions?

[17:12] Mr. Mayor. So just to kind of talk a little bit about some of the comments that he

[17:18] made, and Harold, jump in and interrupt me any time, okay?

[17:23] When you get to the

[17:24] concepts, the B and the C concepts, the biggest thing about that is that we

[17:31] originally did explore utilizing the potential of a lot of the

[17:34] permeable pavers.

[17:37] We feel confident we could get a grant for some of it, but to

[17:41] his point specifically about the stuff on the street part of it itself, is that

[17:47] that we're pretty confident thinking back and remembering that the whole roadway bed

[17:51] is concrete. And then when they built it, it was too low, so then there's some bituminous

[17:57] underneath there. And then it's glued to the bituminous. So going the direction of

[18:02] trying to add permeable pavers, we kind of felt would be cost prohibitive.

[18:08] If it

[18:09] was the desire to do that as well, the other thing about some of the permeable

[18:13] pavers that if we decide to stay with them, when we might still be able to get some funding

[18:18] for permanent waivers to the watershed district for back-of-curb usage, but one of the factors

[18:25] to consider there is while it does have some water type of benefits, the other part of

[18:34] it is that it does need to be sprayed out, cleaned out, maintained otherwise it gets

[18:40] clogged up and once it's clogged up there's just nothing else that can be done.

[18:44] So then we're looking at a continue maintenance and work component for public works to maintain

[18:51] that which I personally I don't know if Council Member Johnson feels the same way kind of

[18:57] walks on the edge of not a really good benefit to return ratio simply because of the fact

[19:04] the ongoing maintenance of that could potentially make even using permeable pavers there not

[19:12] necessarily a great idea. It was great back in the day, but now we know and have learned

[19:17] more about that part of it. So that's where the whole permeable paver part comes into

[19:22] place.

[19:24] Can I just jump in real quick? The other part too that we talked about is with the

[19:29] permeable pavers, really, that's only affecting those kind of gentler rains where you have

[19:36] the gully washes.

[19:38] That's just, it doesn't matter if you have permeable or not, that's going to run right

[19:40] off into the gutter line and go right into the storm sewer, so we also consider that

[19:45] as well.

[19:46] Yeah, so I mean the mountain vima rain, but even still if we don't maintain those

[19:52] permeable pavers very well, it's a very limited time perfume which they're no longer

[19:56] very functional anyways.

[19:57] which is what we haven't done. Right. So they probably are not even effective at

[20:03] all right now the way they are. Right. And really the main difference between, you

[20:09] know, in his print kind of like the the B and the C concept, I think that's what

[20:14] it was, yeah the B and the C concept, is with the B concept there's a little bit

[20:21] more limited use of some of the colorings. We are shifting away from the

[20:25] overall color scheme of what's going on, which is where the C1 kind of makes some sense because

[20:33] we are kind of sticking with the color scheme of what we have now moving forward, so it's

[20:36] not going to be as much of a dramatic change, especially if we decide through this that

[20:43] we have to address that north end of Central Avenue on the west-hand side, then also you're

[20:49] going to have something totally different on one side.

[20:50] The other side doesn't need the work, really.

[20:52] it's just in front of city hall here and then that one area down there. So it's really kind of a

[20:57] matter of comfort and design shifting that we're really looking at right now but really we focused

[21:03] on delineation of the parking lanes, the crosswalks and then really additionally we all have been

[21:11] exposed to the challenges that we have with trying to get across central and somewhere

[21:16] pedestrian challenges and so looking at pedestrian actuated crossing signals at

[21:23] the ends of the plaza there as well. On both sides of City Hall Block. Yep.

[21:31] Here's talking. Crosswalk sign, we push the button and it flashes.

[21:35] Yep.

[21:38] So it's taken a lot of hours of meetings to get to this point and

[21:42] several different renderings to give to you guys to get your feedback and

[21:47] and hopefully come up with some consensus to move ahead.

[21:50] Well, I think one of the things is with the concrete,

[21:57] you're going to have a lot longer life than what

[22:00] we have with pavers.

[22:02] Pavers, even the ones that are there that are still

[22:06] surviving, are near their end use

[22:10] and are just going to continue to deteriorate.

[22:12] and see we got we're ten years in and and got a lot of deterioration so the

[22:18] deterioration is going to start to just multiply from here on and with some of

[22:27] these designs of what they can do with the concrete it to make it look

[22:32] attractive I think is the important thing that I like about this changing to

[22:39] concrete rather than even thinking about any type of pavers at all.

[22:51] Other opinions, thoughts?

[22:55] Mr. Mayor, I want to thank the committee for spending the time to put this together

[23:03] and putting the research into it. A lot of the questions were answered.

[23:10] In short, I like option 1C, not having the pavers, I think is a good idea, because it's

[23:23] hard and it's not that our public works department doesn't do their job.

[23:27] They do their job really well, and they put in long hours and every hour they're working,

[23:31] they're giving it their all.

[23:32] But there's only so many hours in a day and we only have so many people.

[23:35] So, to be fair to that group, I think putting in pavers is thinking more about a pretty

[23:42] look then about what it takes to maintain that for the future and the stress that it

[23:46] would put on the team.

[23:49] I'm more in favor of like a colored or stamped concrete, but I'd like to learn a little

[23:53] bit more about when we're coloring concrete, what's the life expectancy of a color before

[23:59] it goes to that beautiful dull gray and gray?

[24:04] I think it varies. Again, depending on who you talk to, some people say that if you get

[24:12] the right air mixture, the right color mixture, the integral concrete will stand up as well

[24:17] as the regular concrete as far as durability. Color does fade over time. I don't know that

[24:23] there's a set amount of time. I guess a lot of that's probably amount of salt that

[24:27] goes on it, amount of sun that it's in, there's a number of variables.

[24:32] So I don't know that there's a set.

[24:35] And it's probably batch dependent, too.

[24:37] I mean, you're going to want to pour something all from the same batch

[24:40] so that it is through at least the same pour the same.

[24:44] So for something that way, these colors, and I'm not a concrete guy,

[24:48] so bear with me, these colors, are they topical in nature?

[24:52] Are they blended in with the mist?

[24:54] This would be an integral color, so the color would be throughout the concrete.

[24:56] And the thought there is if a plow does scratch it or a corner chips, it's the same color

[25:03] through.

[25:04] It's not a colored sealant or an acid wash that will wear off as quickly.

[25:10] This, if the surface wears down, shows wear patterns, it's going to have that same color

[25:15] throughout the concrete.

[25:16] Yeah, I, thank you.

[25:18] Thank you.

[25:19] I just, I like the look of one.

[25:21] see it keeps it got some different colors going on which was the the one nice

[25:26] thing about having pavers but obviously they deteriorate too quickly and the

[25:32] city still got to pay a bill for that but I think going with concrete however it

[25:37] goes is the right way to go my my thought council and as far as looks

[25:43] go I really like the look of 1C I think it has a lot going on and is pretty

[25:48] visually pleasing.

[25:53] How does one see a dress where you may have a bump out in

[25:59] the future?

[26:02] Would you be looking at taking that out or? I'm sorry the bump out

[26:07] word? Like if we went into the next block or something that had a bump out

[26:14] that would we be looking at getting rid of that since we'd be going with

[26:20] concrete and they're more of a block kind of no the the bump-outs would stay

[26:27] exactly where they are we're not anticipating changing the curb line or

[26:31] anything on any of the blocks whether it's a central avenue block or the other

[26:35] blocks up and down central or sorry the city hall block or the other blocks

[26:39] up and down central avenue it wouldn't that the bump-outs would not

[26:45] change the curb line would not change its location so

[26:50] yeah just to follow up

[26:51] on that. The road geometry would stay the same. The parking lanes would be in the

[26:54] same area. The bump-outs at the corners would remain the same. They would just be

[26:57] different materials. Okay.

[27:05] Follow-up question. Now, did I understand that the

[27:12] fading with what you're proposing here is not going to be a factor like we

[27:18] talked about some of these other areas where concrete has been fading and it

[27:23] end up a different color in five years?

[27:26] I think it will fade slightly as concrete cures and ages,

[27:31] even plain white concrete changes color some.

[27:34] So it will fade and probably lighten up.

[27:36] But where some concrete coloring is a topical sealant

[27:41] or paint or acid stain that's just

[27:45] in the very top film of the concrete that would wear off,

[27:49] this would be concrete that would be the same color

[27:51] throughout.

[27:52] So, again, if it chips, if it shows wear patterns, it should be the same color underneath.

[27:59] It's not a coating on top that would need to be replaced or refreshed.

[28:06] Explain to me this one that's up here now on the Central Avenue driving lanes.

[28:13] you've got lines across you know making squares out of small squares is is that

[28:22] just a that's cut only just a little bit or how far yeah control joints are

[28:30] typically through is it a third of the concrete isn't it so you don't want

[28:35] concrete panels too big or they'll crack so you're you're kind of guessing

[28:39] where they'll crack and keeping panels in a size that won't crack, so you put that

[28:44] decorative scoring in there to try and control where it'll crack.

[28:49] Now you also mentioned something about replacing panels.

[28:54] Are you saying that if we have one of these that goes bad, that it can be replaced?

[29:01] Just like with any other city street or concrete street, if you have a utility repair that

[29:06] that you need to do in the middle of the street

[29:07] or if there's an accident or something and one does crack.

[29:11] Yeah, you can go in and saw cut out that square,

[29:14] kinda drill the dowels into the remaining concrete

[29:17] around there and tie a new panel of concrete back in there.

[29:21] Yeah, and to piggyback off that,

[29:24] that's why the Concept 1B, can you go back to that, Jeff?

[29:27] Concept 1B is a little more just uniformed

[29:32] gray concrete for that exact reason.

[29:35] And if we have to, for some reason, go in there for utility work or one of the panels

[29:41] in the sidewalk gets really heaved and breaks up, it's far easier to replace a piece

[29:46] of gray concrete with another piece of gray concrete to match versus even with concept 1C

[29:52] where you have some of this beige kind of, you know, brownish coloring.

[29:56] In five years, you're not going to be able to replace that exactly with the same color panels.

[30:00] So it's going to look off, which is why the concept 1B was one of our preferred options

[30:06] in the committee for just ease of replacement of various panels.

[30:26] One of the other things that we did discuss was the tree placement. We talked about, you

[30:34] know, getting rid of the bark and putting down the steel plates, grates, whatever you

[30:41] call them.

[30:42] Yeah that's one thing we did talk about as well. It doesn't really show here in

[30:46] the concepts but something we fight the battle of putting new mulch out there

[30:52] every single year to only have it get flushed away down the drain during a

[30:56] big storm and it's frankly it's kind of stupid to continue to just replace

[31:01] you know with mulch and stuff so you know one thing I know Nick was

[31:08] really interested in would be when we take all the trees out and when we

[31:13] redo block by block is to bury those trees a little bit lower and then have a

[31:17] great, you've all seen the grates in various different applications, but

[31:21] that just gets away from having to re-put mulch and then that's frankly

[31:25] going to be washed down during the next big rain.

[31:33] Do you have any examples? Have

[31:35] you done any of this anywhere locally? Of switching a whole streetscape or

[31:42] just using the stamped and colored concrete? Yes. Yes, there's numerous examples. Lee actually

[31:50] was just showing me one. He took a picture in Maple Grove where they just replaced

[31:54] paper crosswalks similar to what you have here, but they were just the crosswalks

[32:01] in the streets and they replaced it with stamped and colored concrete for the same reason.

[32:06] Papers were crumbling. They had really gotten uneven. Some of the pavers had settled.

[32:27] You saw me texting before the meeting, I was sending a picture to Riley and to Nick.

[32:32] If you know where the hospital is in Maple Grove, they got the shops just north of there.

[32:38] They have literally gone in and tearing up all the pavers.

[32:41] And they do have some stamped colored concrete that they've put in place of the pavers.

[32:47] So if you want to see a good example of that.

[32:49] and they really, it's been in there for about a year, year and a half maybe, but

[32:55] they pound the daylights out of it with their with plows and loaders and things

[32:59] like that, so it appears to be holding up very well, but the same concerns that

[33:04] Councilmember Schulz and Johnson brought up with regards to

[33:06] color-grafating and things like this, that's, that's, it's going to be an

[33:12] issue. One thing that I thought of after we met with the Street Escape

[33:17] committee last week. I didn't mention I had a project 25 years ago used black concrete

[33:24] carbon gutter and it's holding up really well. But what I did explain the streetscape committee

[33:29] is that before even thinking about pouring that out in the street, we did test samples.

[33:36] So in this case what I would say be very easily to get to work with a concrete supplier

[33:42] and pour some test sections and I'm just gonna pick maybe not public works for Nick

[33:47] and you could just have just some test panels that you just throw away later on

[33:51] but you could actually see the color and let it let harden up and let and let it

[33:56] and you possibly put some joint joint patterns on there just you want to do

[34:01] that just to make certain that you're okay with the color before it

[34:05] starts getting poured right right in your on your front door so I would see if

[34:10] Jeff, can you go back to either one of these?

[34:12] Well, that's one B or one C.

[34:14] I'd really recommend that that would be a part of it.

[34:16] We'd pour some concrete, some panels, maybe eight by eights

[34:19] or something like this, just so you get a good,

[34:22] you can visualize what that color's gonna look like.

[34:24] And you could pour two or three different test areas

[34:27] just so you can understand what the colors

[34:29] are gonna look like.

[34:31] And where would you pour those test areas

[34:34] within this block?

[34:37] I think we just pick a spot down public works shop and you just build some frames and some

[34:44] plywood and you just bring them in there and just pour them differently so you can actually

[34:48] see them after they start setting up.

[34:50] If you do that, at least you got your at least readily assured that when it does go in,

[34:56] you like the color and you can maybe start telling that if it's a little too red or

[35:00] something like this you can maybe modify it but if it looks wrong there it's likely

[35:05] going to look wrong when you when you pour it out here.

[35:11] Did the committee go as

[35:13] far as coloring or decisions like that? Did you have any directives that you

[35:21] thought were better than? The only coloring examples are what you see in

[35:25] front of you today. Yeah I think and correct me if I'm wrong committee but

[35:31] So I think the thought was the 1B concept was a little bit better just simply because

[35:39] of the replacement factor,

[35:42] at least in my opinion, that's what I liked better.

[35:45] And also the dark concrete is going to thaw faster than the light colored concrete or

[35:55] that or any other color, but the darker the concrete, the better it's going to

[36:02] thaw for winter.

[36:08] And I would add at the concept level, you know, what we're

[36:12] showing you is high level. Do we like the more earthy tans brown similar to the

[36:18] paver tones that are out there? If that's the direction we go, yes, we'll

[36:22] get a full color palette of what would go out there and some options kind of

[36:26] forward. If we're okay with changing direction of the overall look of the

[36:31] corridor and going more grays, again we'll do the same thing. We can we can

[36:37] get some more samples and colors and overall color palette moving forward, but

[36:43] at this point it's pretty high level to try and determine a direction for the

[36:49] overall look of the corridor and what the hardscape would look like. So I guess

[36:55] As for tonight, what we're looking for from the council is really shoring up all of the

[37:02] various components of this plan and getting some pretty firm direction on which, you know,

[37:08] kind of an either or you want so then we can take all those components and formalize

[37:13] it into a final plan.

[37:14] So maybe what I can do, maybe I'll just go down the list and I'll just kind of

[37:19] take head nods here.

[37:21] Is there a leaning towards more of the gray tones versus the earth tones?

[37:26] Because that's a key component of what we're doing here.

[37:33] My personal preference is that I like the earth tones, but I just don't know longevity and potential replacement

[37:41] if that's the best course to do long term.

[37:45] So, you know, visually appealing is definitely the more earth tones, but I think the most practical approach is more of the grays than the B type of a configuration.

[37:57] I would agree with that.

[38:02] I mean, obviously I think C is better, but if we can assure some sort of...

[38:11] I don't want to do this again in five, ten years.

[38:14] Exactly. I mean, if it's going to be an issue, but I mean, if the strength and durability

[38:20] is similar, then, you know, all things equal of those two, I lean towards C, but it's going

[38:33] to last half as long, then it makes no sense. You know, I mean, that's the thing that I

[38:38] don't...

[38:39] And I don't think there's a longevity question between the two.

[38:42] I don't think there's a durability question or a longevity, I mean, concrete essentially

[38:49] is concrete.

[38:51] There might be some colors or mixes that maybe don't wear quite as well, but again, with

[38:58] the test panels and working with concrete manufacturers, we'd get the air mixture and

[39:03] the color mixture right for what's going in.

[39:06] I think more of the concern is if for some reason you do need to replace something

[39:10] or you decide to widen the sidewalk when the park gets redone or something like that, you'd

[39:17] have that patch essentially that might not match exactly, which it probably wouldn't

[39:21] match exactly with plain grey concrete.

[39:24] But over time that kind of fades out and it gets dirty and they start to match.

[39:30] Color concrete would act similarly. It's just probably not as used and not as, you know,

[39:41] tested and gone through as plain concrete which has been used for hundreds of years.

[39:47] That's right. I'm kind of in the same camp. If durability and longevity are about the same,

[39:54] I like the look of sea. If they're really going to last about as long,

[39:58] You just I just think it's a nicer look I think in the spring and the summer when there's the greens the color is going to pop nice

[40:07] And then we're sure you're probably not going to see it anyway

[40:09] So I don't know where to go with that

[40:11] But I just I just think it's a nice look so it's you know

[40:15] Function functionality has to come first. We're not stressing out public works team to go fix something that got jacked up and try and

[40:21] match color

[40:23] That it's also going to give the residents good bang for their buck so that we don't have to come back and do come back and do this again

[40:29] So durability longevity the same I would go with the one that just looks nice

[40:34] Which for me again is one see

[40:40] Council members

[40:42] There's there's a hybrid in between two as Jeff was mentioned. This is just a menu. Yeah, I like what I give you in some street

[40:48] Brought it's a menu. So, you know this could you go to one B?

[40:55] I'm sorry, go back to 1C.

[40:58] Something like this, you could still have the white sidewalk, but have a colored boulevard.

[41:03] As Nick mentioned, the streetscape committee last week, that area doesn't take a lot of

[41:08] abuse.

[41:10] If you needed to inject, instead of just the whites and the grays, you could actually

[41:15] interject maybe a little different color in the boulevard, so you'd have, maybe it's

[41:20] a happy medium.

[41:21] but that would be the probably all if you want the

[41:26] That the tans in the sidewalk. I think councilman Schultz brought up. It's just your it's

[41:32] When you start remembering was the city administrator when you start replacing it

[41:36] It could it'll look a little more different than white concrete. Well, you're gonna have to try and match

[41:41] So if you want to incorporate some color one area you could it could be a blend between B and C and just

[41:47] Put it put in the Boulevard area

[41:49] that won't obviously won't take as much abuse and Nick just reminded me that's

[41:56] the area he just really broom off to where he doesn't have to get up and

[41:59] plow at lucky that more heavier equipment on the street and the sidewalks

[42:02] especially with the purchase of the new blade from last year it's reduced the

[42:08] impact at the curb and behind for remove off a central significantly I

[42:13] mean pretty much they don't have to do anything there anymore which that

[42:19] That's really where a lot of the structural damage came from is scraping everything back

[42:23] off of there.

[42:24] So, you know, the other part of it is, is whatever we go through with this, making sure we have

[42:29] a procedure in place for snow removal along that area that is, this is the way we're going

[42:36] to do it.

[42:37] Now Riley's on board and this is where we're going to do it from here until eternity

[42:40] no matter who is there.

[42:48] Alstrom, what was your...

[42:52] I don't have any strong opinions either way.

[42:56] In terms of color?

[42:58] In terms of color, I think that maybe the committee should, they're the ones that actually put the work into it.

[43:08] Well, what I think I'm hearing is, assuming that longevity is all the same and durability is all the same,

[43:15] that a majority of the council is looking like earth tones is the preferred palette.

[43:19] So I think we'll move forward with that.

[43:21] More accommodations are off.

[43:23] Yeah, I mean, it doesn't have to be exactly this.

[43:25] Well, we can work with Jeff and Lee to figure out something.

[43:28] So let me try moving this forward here.

[43:31] The drive lanes, the standard concrete pavement,

[43:35] that seems acceptable to everybody.

[43:41] And then for the parking lanes, we're

[43:47] showing colored and stamped concrete or colored

[43:49] and custom scoring.

[43:52] Is that, obviously, do we want to have

[43:55] have different color from the dry vials on that?

[43:58] I think that's a good idea.

[44:00] Kind of delaying the reference.

[44:01] Yes.

[44:02] Yes, but I don't think it needs to be scored like it appears here, like it's small favors.

[44:09] We can, you know, that's one of the things we can look at, you know, what's the ultimate

[44:14] financial impact with, you know, the scoring, the tool cutting, saw cutting versus the

[44:18] stamping?

[44:19] Let's figure out what that is and then decide, quite frankly, what's the most

[44:23] economically feasible to put into other elements of this.

[44:26] That's my preference.

[44:27] I'm going to put it on the same page.

[44:28] As you start putting stripes on there and stuff, I mean, if you color and stamp, and

[44:33] stripes are going to fall off, and have to repaint those over time.

[44:37] Well, it's one of the reasons that we were looking at this is to do away with the striping,

[44:41] to create such a visual change that we don't have to paint it anymore.

[44:47] So, I mean, people aren't going to be able to park wherever they want.

[44:50] It won't be like ...

[44:51] Well, there was that.

[44:53] And that's an aspect that we can put into it.

[44:56] In there, again, we could actually put in.

[45:00] Riding lines in that, there's several different ways that we can do it. I don't mean truthfully.

[45:05] I don't think there's parking lane stripes there now.

[45:07] There isn't now there?

[45:09] There's a contrast in the pavers or the banding.

[45:14] But I don't know that, honestly, I think when we looked at that, we don't believe that was intentional for parking lanes.

[45:20] Sure people can't see them.

[45:22] Right. I mean, having a business on Central Avenue seems like it's nice to have striping of some sort in there,

[45:28] But it's often more of a suggestion rather than anything else. It's quite fun to watch people try to park out there

[45:34] I can tell you that. All right, let's let's move here to the

[45:39] The boulevard so right now we have the

[45:43] Permable pavers in there assuming that a the base isn't really workable would cost far too much to

[45:50] Replace that do we want to move towards again? Just a can't a concrete

[45:54] whether that be stamped in some fashion. What coloring are we looking at? Do you

[45:59] want a different color from the dry vials? What's the thought there?

[46:05] We're in the middle.

[46:06] No, in the boulevard. So where the permeable pavers are now. So in this,

[46:11] the red area in this concept.

[46:19] I would like the idea that he suggested that we put, you know,

[46:23] some sample concrete poured at different colors. It costs a little bit, but it would

[46:28] give us an idea of what this is going to look like.

[46:32] So go more towards the stamping thing, correct? That's what I'm hearing you say. I agree

[46:38] with that, too.

[46:38] But I mean like pour some at the public work so you can see.

[46:42] Yeah, we'll do that.

[46:43] I think we'll do that either way.

[46:45] Everyone else?

[46:46] That's good.

[46:50] And then the sidewalk areas, obviously one straight paneled, will match something, we'll

[47:00] figure out a tone to kind of, that works with the pallet we're thinking of here, okay.

[47:06] And then anything special for the crosswalks, other than, you know, we already talked about

[47:11] the activated pedestrian crosswalks, signs and signals, but I'm talking actual pavement.

[47:18] Some contrasting, some contrasting element in there to really make it set apart.

[47:23] Yeah.

[47:25] The picture in 1C has just a different design on it, slightly different coloring.

[47:43] Good.

[47:44] I think we're good.

[47:46] We'll get a new concept developed, and then the idea would be that we'll bring

[47:51] this forward to another council meeting for kind of final approval of the overall

[47:54] concept plan.

[47:55] take that concept plan then start looking at the actual construction component of

[47:59] this.

[48:09] My takeaway is that it's a colored, slightly colored, again we'll work with

[48:17] kind of the tones that you would like to see and we'll try to figure out

[48:22] that's that's what I'm thinking okay

[48:26] clear enough for you there's mud okay okay

[48:37] thank

[48:38] you thank you thank you all right 4b special assessment policy so for the

[48:47] last 22 years at least the council has allowed partial prepayments on special

[48:51] assessments for New Street and alley construction projects Leanne brought this

[48:57] forward and suggest that, hey, we should probably follow Minnesota State statues when it comes

[49:01] to this. So 429.061 states that the prepayment of special assessments should be all or nothing.

[49:11] That information was included in your packet this evening. I don't have anything else to

[49:17] add to that. It would be a really small change to our policy. You see the highlighted

[49:20] page number nine there, the partial prepayments and blah, blah, blah, blah. So that would

[49:26] really be the only change we're looking at.

[49:30] But I'm just looking for a general

[49:31] direction if that's something you want to get rid of. Mr. Mayor, Councilmember

[49:36] Ralu is very patient with me with my emails trying to find any type of wiggle

[49:41] room in this to allow residents and anybody in Osio to maintain some type

[49:48] of ability to continue to make partial payments but there there just

[49:51] really isn't any. And if there really isn't the opportunity to do that

[49:56] legally, which again, thank you for your patience rally with communication on that.

[50:03] Then we just have to follow the letter of law and eliminate it, I suppose.

[50:16] I personally would like to see if we could keep at least within the 30 days a partial

[50:25] payment.

[50:28] That gives these people a chance to at least pay down part of it and not have to have

[50:34] at all on the tax rolls, save them a little interest.

[50:40] The example that you give here for the 2019 Street Project, well, I think that there was

[50:49] fault in the staff taking any payments after the first 30 days in that, which you highlight

[50:56] here as being confusion to the calculating of interest and so forth and so on.

[51:01] But if at all possible, I'd like to see us to be able to at least take partial payments for the first 30 days.

[51:09] And this was one of the questions I always had every one of these street projects, exactly when can payments be made?

[51:17] And it has always been a question as to how that's identified.

[51:24] and this is now is saying that those payments are to be 30 days from the

[51:30] time the assessment I think is determined as I followed this through but if it's

[51:38] against the law and there's a legal problem with it then we probably can't

[51:42] do that but I'd like to see a lot of partial within that 30 day period

[51:51] Minnesota Statute 429.061 states that the property owner has the right to pay for the

[52:00] pay the whole of the assessment on such property with interest accrued to the date of payment.

[52:05] So that's, you know, we've been forever and a day now been allowing partial prepayments

[52:11] probably against what Minnesota Statutes suggests that we do.

[52:16] And so to Leanne and Leanne's point, her suggestion is we should really be following what the

[52:22] statute says.

[52:25] Absolutely.

[52:28] Mayor and council, and I don't want to throw a monkey wrench into this.

[52:32] I think that under state statute, there's an option to do some partial pre-payments

[52:40] by ordinance rather than policy.

[52:43] policy. I think the frustration with this has been more of a practical one that it causes

[52:48] confusion with how the interest payments are calculated.

[52:54] So we can, I think there is, and I'll have to, I'll double check it prior to the regular

[53:01] meeting but I do think that there's some language that we can allow it by ordinance

[53:05] but not policy. So that's just a little sort of clarification but I'll confirm

[53:11] that and double-check the statute. That's for 29.061. Subsection 3. Yeah I

[53:19] don't remember the subdivision off the top of my head. The council may authorize

[53:23] by ordinance partial payments of assessments prior to certification to

[53:26] the county auditor. Correct that's it. I'd like to discuss that a little further

[53:31] about tonight at a different work session. That and but to follow up to

[53:36] Riley's point there may be reasons to just take it out other practical reasons

[53:43] and I know that the city clerk has had some ongoing issues with this over the

[53:47] years and it did raise some confusion and problems last year when when we

[53:53] encountered this issue so there may be other reasons to take out of the

[53:56] policy all together yeah so I agree I agree with that but I just wanted to

[54:00] make that clarification I think we need to get some more clarity on some of

[54:05] points okay

[54:10] so so will this be at the regular council meeting no not tonight

[54:16] no no this wasn't planned to be at the next at this meeting is that going to

[54:22] give us time to have it on this current street project I believe the

[54:27] assessments are in April so yeah we have I mean we can we can try to get taken

[54:32] care of in March happen thank you yeah I look for a motion for adjournment second

[54:43] motion by councilmember Schultz second by councilmember Stelmack not

[54:47] unavailable all those favor hi hi all those post we're adjourned at six fifty

[54:52] Thank you.

Council Work Session

Agenda

Transcript