[28:02] Good evening and uh welcome to the

[28:04] Thursday, August, actually it's Tuesday,

[28:07] August 25th. We need to fix that on the

[28:10] uh on the agenda to to change that name

[28:13] the uh

[28:16] the day of the week. Um but it's August

[28:18] 25th. uh we have a study session uh

[28:22] number 2026-2

[28:26] and I'd ask that everybody please

[28:28] silence your phones and stand for the

[28:29] pledge of allegiance

[28:35] to the flag of the United States of

[28:37] America and to the republic for it

[28:40] stands one nation

[28:43] indivisible with liberty and justice for

[29:00] Roll call. Mayor Rey

[29:02] >> here.

[29:03] >> Mayor Prom Brock

[29:04] >> here.

[29:05] >> Councilman Dow.

[29:07] >> Councilwoman Was

[29:08] >> here.

[29:09] >> Councilman Corals.

[29:11] Councilman Darwitch. [clears throat]

[29:13] Councilwoman Lawrence

[29:15] >> here. A quorum is present.

[29:20] Okay. Item number one, prosecutotorial

[29:22] services interviews. Um first firm is um

[29:27] Fosone and Grisco.

[29:30] >> Good evening.

[29:32] >> Um we're going to start out and let you

[29:33] talk about your your firm and uh about

[29:36] why about what you can do prosecution

[29:38] wise and then we'll ask some questions

[29:40] and give you some time at the end.

[29:42] >> We appreciate you being here tonight.

[29:43] >> Yeah, of course. Thank you very much for

[29:45] having us. It's good to be with you all.

[29:46] I had uh of course planned to begin with

[29:49] a joke uh about how the uh council saved

[29:52] the best for last uh but then obviously

[29:55] uh we got a phone call uh to come and be

[29:58] first instead. So I don't know what that

[29:59] says about it. [laughter]

[30:03] So at any rate that was a joke. Um in

[30:05] all seriousness it's our great pleasure

[30:06] to be here with you again. Um the firm

[30:09] uh as I think we may have talked about

[30:11] last time the law firm of Fosone and

[30:13] Grisco which uh is the successor to

[30:15] Fossil and Bond has been around uh since

[30:17] the 1990s. Um we've been doing

[30:19] prosecution since at least the 2010s. So

[30:21] about 16 years um worth of prosecutions

[30:24] going on there. Um mostly for the city

[30:26] of Westland. Uh there was a period of

[30:28] time where we also uh did the legal work

[30:30] for the city of Wayne actually which I

[30:32] think some of you uh remember a couple

[30:34] of different faces um probably in that

[30:36] regard.

[30:38] Um but currently we're in the 18th

[30:39] district court in Westland, a fairly

[30:41] busy court. Um but one where the

[30:44] busyiness of the court uh means that we

[30:46] have to have staff sufficient to deal

[30:48] with those issues. And so consequently

[30:50] that means that we have uh a number of

[30:52] attorneys that are trained and

[30:54] proficient in prosecution work. Um and

[30:56] so to the extent coverage issues arise,

[30:58] there are a number of attorneys that

[31:00] would be able to step in um in an

[31:02] emergency to to be able to provide

[31:04] coverage on on various issues. Um but at

[31:06] any rate, uh I am here with my partner

[31:08] Jackie Bona. Um the proposal that we

[31:11] provided does present Jackie uh as the

[31:14] lead prosecutor. Um so I'm the managing

[31:17] partner of the firm and sort of have

[31:18] general supervisory responsibility over

[31:20] all of our practice areas, including our

[31:22] municipal practice group. Um but I

[31:24] wanted to give Jackie a moment to

[31:25] introduce herself um and to to tell you

[31:28] a little bit about herself. Okay.

[31:30] >> Good evening. I'm Jackie Bona and um I

[31:33] came to Foson Brisco in 2017. So uh just

[31:37] about 10 years now. And before that I

[31:40] was a courtappointed lawyer in uh

[31:42] Westland. So I was 23 years experience

[31:45] working with indigenous defendants there

[31:48] uh representing um hundreds if not close

[31:51] to thousands of people through the years

[31:54] um in the district court. I also did uh

[31:57] work in other district courts in the

[31:59] area and when they had a need arise for

[32:03] a prosecutor um they asked me to

[32:06] interview and I accepted a position

[32:07] there. So I started out prosecuting in

[32:10] Westland. I also did some coverage work

[32:13] for now Judge Olyri, but at the time she

[32:16] was prosecuting in Wayne. So I was in

[32:17] Wayne a couple of times for Judge Olirri

[32:21] uh covering for her uh doing the

[32:22] prosecution in front of Judge Mack. Um

[32:25] so since then I I basically spend almost

[32:28] all my time in Westland um working in um

[32:33] the the district court there pre-trials

[32:36] uh jury trials bench trials evidentary

[32:38] hearings if we have appeals um I've

[32:41] worked on appellet work to the circuit

[32:42] court to the court of appeals and even

[32:45] to the supreme court we had a case um I

[32:48] didn't get to argue it but uh I did have

[32:50] to um research and prepare the brief um

[32:54] So, uh, that being said, after I was

[32:57] brought on, uh, we've had, um, younger

[33:00] attorneys come in. I'm in charge of

[33:01] training them and getting them prepared.

[33:03] Uh, and we have at least four of us that

[33:06] can rotate through prosecution, and

[33:08] they're all proficient in the district

[33:10] court.

[33:12] >> And the council has already met Sean

[33:14] Fitzgerald, who is the attorney who was

[33:16] with me the last time that I was here.

[33:18] Um, and Shawn has a history of uh pretty

[33:21] extensive municipal representation in a

[33:23] variety of areas including prosecution.

[33:25] Um, and Shawn would also be uh one of

[33:28] the attorneys uh potentially in the

[33:30] rotation for the city of Wayne work. Um,

[33:32] but I wanted to point out that we we

[33:34] didn't want to necessarily bring three

[33:36] people um because you'd already met

[33:38] Sean. So, I felt I felt perhaps uh we'd

[33:40] give you a different look here today.

[33:42] Um, one of the [clears throat] questions

[33:43] that you'd asked me to speak to was uh

[33:46] the the rate. Um, and so the proposal

[33:48] that we submitted identified an hourly

[33:50] rate of $175 per hour. Um, we would be

[33:54] open to discussing, if selected,

[33:56] alternative fee arrangements that make

[33:58] sense. Um, so I think those those things

[34:00] are, you know, somewhat negotiable. I

[34:02] know that there's opportunity at times

[34:04] for blended rates, um, or even flat

[34:06] rates when it makes sense. Uh, value

[34:08] based billing and different arrangements

[34:10] like that. and we'd be happy to explore

[34:12] any of those things. Um, again, if uh if

[34:15] the city decides that that we're to be

[34:16] selected for the prosecution work. Um,

[34:19] the function of the local prosecutor in

[34:21] our opinion is very important. There's a

[34:24] litany of local policy decisions and

[34:26] enforcement decisions that all flow

[34:28] through the prosecutor's office. So, we

[34:30] know that this is an important decision.

[34:32] Uh, we make no bones about it that we we

[34:35] want to be your prosecutors. That's why

[34:36] we're here today. Uh we think we're the

[34:38] best firm uh the best candidates for the

[34:41] position. We think that we have the

[34:42] opportunity to offer strategic legal

[34:44] advice um both of course in general

[34:47] counsel work, but we're here tonight to

[34:48] talk about prosecution. Um and so we

[34:51] have the capability of doing that. It's

[34:53] been proven uh in a community that's

[34:55] just not all that far from here. Um and

[34:57] that has some of the same types of

[34:59] concerns and issues that you can see

[35:02] from the questions um that the council

[35:04] and the and the city management has put

[35:06] together. Those are some of the very

[35:07] same issues that we deal with uh day in

[35:10] and day out for uh other clients. Um and

[35:13] so with that, I'm I'm happy to get into

[35:16] uh whatever questions the council has

[35:18] and we look forward to the discussion.

[35:20] Okay. Um I'm going to ask you this

[35:22] before we start that is your firm able

[35:24] to provide prosecutional services for

[35:27] the 29th district criminal dockets every

[35:29] week Tuesday from 8:00 a.m. noon and one

[35:32] Monday a month at 8:00 a.m. noon to

[35:34] noon. uh in jury trials that are held on

[35:37] Thursdays or Fridays when necessary. Uh

[35:40] is it imperative that our city's legal

[35:43] representation it is imperative that our

[35:45] city's legal representation be able to

[35:47] offer sufficient staffing to cover these

[35:50] dockets? Is that an issue?

[35:51] >> That's not an issue at all. Um in fact,

[35:53] I I actually think that um probably

[35:56] between Jackie and Shawn uh there would

[35:59] almost be 100% coverage just with those

[36:02] two attorneys. Um but again to the

[36:04] extent that it's necessary, we've have

[36:06] two or three other people that would be

[36:08] able to step in um sort of on a uh I

[36:11] would say not necessarily a regular

[36:12] basis, but if necessary, they would be

[36:14] able to step in as well.

[36:15] >> Okay. Okay. Um

[36:19] Councilwoman Lawrence, do you want to

[36:21] start us off and just tell us the number

[36:23] of questions so we can all keep track?

[36:26] >> Okay,

[36:30] hang on for a second. Let me find my uh

[36:33] bearings here.

[36:49] How many cases have you represented? Oh,

[36:51] I'm sorry. It's question 10.

[36:54] How many cases have you represented with

[36:56] a municipality regarding environmental

[36:59] violations such as air quality, fugitive

[37:02] dust, geotechnical reports, and various

[37:04] soil contamination testing?

[37:08] Did you go to trial and what were the

[37:09] outcomes?

[37:11] >> So, this is uh this is an interesting

[37:13] question. Um I I guess the first thing

[37:16] I'd say is that the firm uh myself and attorney Stephen J. Brown um along

[37:22] with attorneys from Wayne County uh

[37:24] litigated through trial uh the Van Beern

[37:26] Township hazardous materials landfill

[37:28] case. Uh we won that case and and we're

[37:31] up on appeal now. Um so we have

[37:34] experience with that. We also have

[37:35] experience dealing with regulated

[37:37] industry generally. So uh representing a

[37:40] wastewater authority for example and

[37:42] it's NPDS permitting um or different

[37:44] sorts of of permitting that may be

[37:46] required. And similarly with private

[37:48] industry uh with respect to the various

[37:51] permits that they need from

[37:52] environmental companies and things like

[37:54] that. Um the reason I found it to be an

[37:57] interesting question uh is that I think

[38:00] so so yeah to be clear we have

[38:02] experience in that regard. Um

[38:05] it's not necessarily something that I

[38:06] would typically think of as like a

[38:08] district court prosecution function. I

[38:10] mean it's something we'd be happy to do

[38:11] in a service that we're uh qualified to

[38:13] provide. Um but it it strikes me as uh

[38:16] as a little bit of of an odd uh practice

[38:19] area for your typical prosecutor. Um I

[38:22] could certainly imagine contexts where

[38:24] it would be relevant. Say for example in

[38:26] the zoning context or perhaps local

[38:28] ordinances uh regarding maybe

[38:30] sedimentation control or uh the local

[38:33] you know wastewater public sanitary

[38:35] sewer system. Um that's certainly

[38:37] something we can do and and we have the

[38:38] capability for though. I have to say,

[38:41] oh, sorry, go ahead. With respect to, I

[38:43] mean, I guess a sort of a branch off of

[38:45] that is we deal with uh ordinance

[38:49] violations in blight and zoning and um

[38:54] that type of uh of a case regularly, uh

[38:58] daily, I'd say. Um we work very closely

[39:01] with the ordinance department. Um our

[39:03] main goal, obviously, uh the city's main

[39:06] goal is compliance. Um, so we try to

[39:10] work with the city uh the defendant

[39:14] being charged with how to best uh go

[39:17] about the goal of compliance, however

[39:19] that may be. Uh, we know that some

[39:21] people are just not going to comply,

[39:23] which is fine. They have the right to

[39:24] have a trial and we do a jury trial and

[39:27] present the evidence that we have um in

[39:30] front of a jury and then the jury

[39:31] decides. So, we understand that not

[39:34] everybody is going to comply or wants

[39:36] to. And in that sense, we'll just do a

[39:38] trial, let the jury decide.

[39:40] >> Yeah. And I would say lastly, just to

[39:41] wrap that uh question up, there's also a

[39:44] variety of civil and administrative

[39:46] procedures that may be more appropriate

[39:49] for um uh that type of environmental

[39:53] related issue. Um so for example a

[39:56] public nuisance case or perhaps um a

[39:59] case related to uh fire protection

[40:02] because the fire protection code has

[40:03] some uh elements of it that relate to

[40:05] hazardous materials and things of that

[40:07] nature. Um so we would be to the extent

[40:10] an issue like that came our way in a

[40:11] prosecution role I think we would be

[40:13] looking at what the best way is to

[40:15] tackle it with the ultimate goal of

[40:17] compliance and and cost recovery to the

[40:19] extent the city uh has has suffered

[40:21] loss.

[40:22] >> Okay. you said something I just want to

[40:25] piggy back off of that. So when you're

[40:27] dealing with try people are you're

[40:30] trying to get compliance that's really

[40:32] out the ultimate goal. How long do you

[40:34] recommend you go working on compliance

[40:38] before you say no this is enough we need

[40:40] to move this forward?

[40:42] >> Um I think it's really case by case

[40:44] basis honestly every defendant's

[40:46] different every charge is different.

[40:47] Every circumstance is different right?

[40:49] So, we um what we'll do is is if it's a

[40:53] it's an emergency situation, the city um

[40:57] the ordinance department sees that it's a public safety issue uh and it

[41:02] needs to be addressed quickly. Um

[41:04] usually by the time that the ordinance

[41:06] officer writes the ticket and I see it

[41:09] at the court, they've already tried uh

[41:11] talking to the person, trying to get

[41:13] compliance. Let's see if we can work on

[41:15] this with you. And if that's not

[41:17] happening, they get the ticket. So by

[41:19] the time I see it at that point at the court level, they've already

[41:23] gotten some opportunities, if it's not a

[41:26] matter of extreme safety or hazardous

[41:28] issues, I might give them an adjournment

[41:30] a couple times uh two weeks or a month

[41:33] or so. Um if it's something that's just

[41:35] really not going to happen, uh because

[41:37] either they can't do it or won't do it.

[41:40] Um then at that point, again, that's

[41:42] where you say, do you want a bench trial

[41:44] or do you want a jury trial? Um and then

[41:48] again if it's if we have strength of

[41:50] evidence if we have all all if we have

[41:52] all the evidence that we need to move

[41:53] forward at that point in time we just do

[41:56] the trial and you know I think dragging

[41:59] it on for months and months at a time is

[42:01] not good for anybody. Everyone gets

[42:02] frustrated by that and then at that

[42:04] point if that person's found guilty then

[42:06] it's up to the judge to decide what to

[42:08] do. Uh if it's a if it's a criminal case

[42:11] if it's a civil case you know that's

[42:13] another story. Uh, but if we're talking

[42:15] about a misdemeanor that's in front of

[42:17] Judge Olirri and the person's found

[42:19] guilty, then the then the sentencing is

[42:21] up to her.

[42:23] >> Okay. Councilwas,

[42:27] » let's stay on that vein then. Go with

[42:29] number 12. Um, what experience do you

[42:32] have? Do you have any experience with um

[42:34] habitual offenders andor difficult,

[42:38] mentally ill or retaliatory uh

[42:41] violators?

[42:42] >> We do. Yes. I I'd have to say for me um

[42:45] in all the years I I represented uh uh

[42:49] defendants as a court-appointed lawyer,

[42:51] I I I ran through my my share of

[42:53] difficult people. Uh and now as a

[42:56] prosecutor, same um we [snorts] just I

[42:59] just try to treat everybody with

[43:00] respect. Um uh but firmness. I treat

[43:03] everybody the same. I offer the same

[43:06] plea deal. Not because I you know that

[43:08] you've done or said X about me. The plea

[43:10] deal is the same. I don't take things

[43:12] personal. Um, and I just try to remain

[43:16] as professional as I possibly can. If

[43:18] the person doesn't want to work out any

[43:20] kind of resolution that might be uh be

[43:23] able to resolve the case for example

[43:26] then again I done all I can and I I will

[43:29] we'll just ask for a trial and then then

[43:31] the if I have the evidence to move

[43:33] forward five witnesses and strength of

[43:35] case at that point in time we just set

[43:38] it for a trial and then the judge

[43:39] decides um or a jury. Um, but I I guess

[43:43] what I how I feel about that is is it it

[43:46] kind of comes with a job and um, you

[43:49] know, we just try to treat everybody

[43:51] with respect and do our job. I just want

[43:53] to be professional.

[43:55] >> There's a number of instances where we

[43:57] run into people who have, you know,

[43:59] either mental health issues or they're

[44:01] just, you know, vindic vindictive or

[44:03] something like this. And uh I think

[44:06] there's something to be said for the

[44:07] level of experience that we have that

[44:09] Jackie has in particular over all these

[44:11] years of of dealing with uh criminal

[44:14] defendants both and believe it or not as

[44:16] the defense attorney sometimes you've

[44:18] almost got a harder job dealing with

[44:19] your client trying to get them to be

[44:20] reasonable you know and those sorts of

[44:22] things. So I have 100% confidence in

[44:24] Jackie in that regard. Um but she's

[44:27] absolutely right. It does come with the

[44:28] territory. It's something that uh in a

[44:30] community that's really not all that far

[44:32] away uh and in a court that's uh quite a

[44:34] bit busier, we run into all sorts of

[44:36] people over there. Um you know, and uh

[44:39] and a lot of times that means dealing

[44:41] with uh some people that may uh bounce

[44:43] over from from Wayne into Westland to do

[44:46] something that we have to deal with and vice versa. I'm sure you have uh

[44:49] some of our repeat offenders uh down

[44:51] here, too. Um, so there's been a number

[44:52] of different cases where we've had to

[44:54] deal with that. And, uh, my staff, uh,

[44:57] is always professional but firm in the

[44:59] way that they deal with these things

[45:01] because at the end of the day, we have a

[45:04] mission to accomplish, right? The

[45:06] mission is is as prosecutors, we're law

[45:08] enforcement uh, officials for the

[45:10] community that we serve. Um, and so that

[45:12] means that we're based on a variety of

[45:14] factors. We're looking for how do we

[45:17] accomplish the goals that are in the

[45:19] best interest of the city and its and

[45:21] its residents and it's really about

[45:23] justice which means holding people

[45:25] accountable.

[45:28] » Okay. Uh Mayor Proto,

[45:32] >> this has to do with process and any

[45:37] experience you may have had in this

[45:39] vein. Uh is there anything that you

[45:41] could or feel you could do as a city

[45:43] prosecutor to improve the efficiency of

[45:46] any city court operations?

[45:50] Yeah, I'll take that. Um, I think you I

[45:53] think these are tough questions and it's

[45:55] a good question. Uh, but it almost

[45:57] presupposes that we we come in with some

[45:59] preconceived notions about how things

[46:01] are done here, which we really don't

[46:02] have quite truthfully. I mean, uh, may

[46:04] have may have taken some time to flip

[46:06] through a couple of ordinances or the

[46:08] charter or something like that. Um, but right now we don't know what we

[46:12] don't know. And so I think there's an

[46:13] element of who are the people with boots

[46:16] on the ground uh that are that are

[46:18] trying to get I'll just use an example

[46:20] of blight, right? Who are the people

[46:22] with boots on the ground trying to gain

[46:23] compliance with blight? Presumably

[46:25] they're writing tickets or or seeking

[46:27] warrant requests. And what challenges

[46:30] are they having or seeing over at the

[46:32] court with these cases either not

[46:34] getting uh maybe they're getting

[46:36] dismissed for one reason or another um

[46:38] or there could be any number of

[46:39] different problems. And the same thing

[46:40] with the police department, right?

[46:42] they're out there boots on the ground uh

[46:44] and and maybe working on crime in a

[46:46] certain area or certain types of crime

[46:48] and so what are they seeing? What

[46:49] challenges are they experiencing or

[46:51] seeing firsthand uh at the court? And

[46:55] then what is city management seeing?

[46:57] What is the city council seeing? So I

[46:58] think in terms of process, it's really a

[47:00] question of how do we manage the

[47:02] transition and do the factf finding

[47:04] sufficient to be able to identify the

[47:07] areas that are ripe for improvement and

[47:09] the things that are working well. We're

[47:11] not trying to come in and change those

[47:12] things, right? Uh maybe at some point we

[47:15] identify additional efficiencies. I

[47:17] think the starting point is a little bit

[47:18] of triage. That's how I would approach

[47:20] that.

[47:23] >> Okay.

[47:24] Are there any matters you would or would

[47:27] not provide counsel to our police

[47:29] department on when you're when they're

[47:31] dealing with issues?

[47:34] >> No.

[47:35] >> Is a one- word answer. Okay.

[47:37] >> It's fine. I I I would say that I I

[47:40] speak to our police department on a

[47:42] daily basis about something or another.

[47:44] Um I uh do all of their new officer

[47:48] training um [clears throat] when they

[47:50] come in as new cadetses. Um I do um

[47:55] legal training, I'd say once a year at

[47:57] least for the full department on any

[47:59] kind of new legal updates or any kind of

[48:01] questions or issues I've been seeing

[48:03] over at the court. something that I

[48:04] would like them to focus on and improve

[48:06] on and maybe do some some work on. Um I

[48:10] talk to them regularly about um warrant

[48:13] requests and issues they may be having

[48:15] with cases. Um I would say like I said I they have my cell phone number. Most

[48:21] of them when I do new officer training,

[48:23] I give them my my cell phone number. If

[48:25] you ever had any issues or questions or

[48:26] anything as you're starting out, uh ask

[48:29] me directly. Um, and I'd say the whole

[48:32] detective bureau has my cell phone

[48:34] number in case there's ever a question

[48:35] about anything that they're working on

[48:36] and we talk on a on a regular basis. I'd

[48:38] say we have a very good relationship

[48:40] with our our police department.

[48:42] >> Okay. Uh, Councilwoman Lawrence,

[48:45] >> um, define discretion as an appeals to

[48:49] your role as a city prosecutor. How

[48:51] would you use this?

[48:55] So prosecutorial discretion,

[48:58] I think about with respect to that

[49:01] whether to charge,

[49:03] whether to make a plea deal,

[49:05] um, and how best to advocate for for

[49:10] justice, for victim restitution,

[49:13] uh, and and for the city's interests.

[49:16] So that's how I would define discretion.

[49:19] I I guess I'd ask Jackie to talk a

[49:21] little bit about the factors that go

[49:23] into the use of discretion, but that's

[49:26] how I think about discretion is in terms

[49:28] of, you know, whether we're going to do

[49:30] option A or option B.

[49:33] >> So, I usually take into consideration

[49:35] the strength of the case. Um, do I have

[49:37] a good case to move forward? Um, that

[49:40] obviously has to do with evidence,

[49:42] witnesses, um, police report, uh,

[49:45] supporting documents. Um, so do I have

[49:48] enough evidences first? I'm not gonna I

[49:50] don't prosecute uh to win. I'm not here

[49:53] to keep track of wins and losses or how

[49:56] many people I prosecute in a day. Um, as Brandon already said, it's is to see

[50:01] that justice is served. I mean, as a as

[50:03] a quick sentence, but that is what it

[50:05] is. I take that very seriously. Um, what

[50:09] does the victim want to do with the

[50:10] case? Um, I always take that in

[50:12] consideration. If it's a crime of the

[50:13] victim, I have discussions with that

[50:16] person. How do you want to proceed? We

[50:18] we're a team. I represent the city. Uh

[50:20] however, if you know, I take into

[50:22] consideration your interests, your

[50:24] concerns. What do you want to happen

[50:25] with the case and the public safety? Um

[50:28] so sometimes if a victim doesn't want to

[50:31] proceed, I and I decide, well, this is,

[50:35] you know, I'm I'm understand what you're feeling. However, you know,

[50:39] this person or say this person has a

[50:42] trial that was involved. I I have to be

[50:44] I have to look out for that person if

[50:46] even if you don't really want to. So I

[50:50] take into consideration public safety,

[50:52] welfare, the city's interests, all these

[50:55] things into trying to decide how to

[50:56] handle a case. And again, it's a

[50:58] case-byase basis and and I take into

[51:01] those factors every case that I proceed

[51:03] on or not.

[51:05] I think I want to say one more thing

[51:06] about that. Um, which is that we also

[51:10] look at the compliance likelihood,

[51:13] right? And the deterrent effect of the

[51:15] decisions that we make. Um, so for a

[51:18] first I mean I'm and I'm just not to use

[51:20] any specific examples, but you've got a

[51:22] first-time offender who's likely not to

[51:24] reaffend again. Um, you know, maybe that

[51:27] is a case that makes sense uh to have a

[51:30] plea deal of a certain sort. Uh but

[51:32] maybe that same deal doesn't really make

[51:34] sense for somebody who's running around

[51:35] town uh causing all kinds of problems

[51:38] and seems to show no uh concern for

[51:41] amending their behavior. Right? So I

[51:44] think I think you know those are the

[51:45] kinds of things that we would be taking

[51:47] into consideration and thinking about

[51:49] when exercising uh discretion.

[51:53] >> Okay. Councilwoman was

[51:56] >> can I ask one not on here?

[51:58] >> Yeah. You just got to be able to do do

[52:00] it again later. You just got to remember

[52:02] what it is the question for later.

[52:05] >> You have to do the same question for

[52:06] everybody. This thing.

[52:08] >> Oh, okay. Well, I want to ask this

[52:10] question to everybody.

[52:11] >> Just write just make sure you can do it

[52:12] again. That's all.

[52:15] >> How familiar are you with the cases we

[52:19] currently have going on?

[52:22] >> We have some familiarity. Um we don't I

[52:26] mean I I've you know I understand that

[52:29] there's certain things going on in town

[52:30] right now. Um a number of prosay

[52:33] lawsuits for example uh there's even

[52:35] some cases that have made their way into

[52:37] the 18th district court uh for a variety

[52:39] of reasons um related to the city of

[52:41] Wayne. Uh so we have some familiarity.

[52:43] Uh but I have not uh done a deep dive

[52:46] into the situation to you know frankly

[52:49] because it's not right part of my

[52:51] current role. But but at some level

[52:53] obviously we would need to understand

[52:54] that.

[52:56] >> Just making sure that we're aware of

[52:58] what you're getting your feet into. You

[53:00] know what I mean? That's you know

[53:01] >> you have an understanding of this. Yes.

[53:03] Thank you.

[53:04] >> Okay.

[53:04] >> A fair a fair comment [snorts] though.

[53:06] >> Okay.

[53:07] >> Mor prom.

[53:09] >> This question has se this question has

[53:12] several parts in it and they're going to

[53:14] be yes or no.

[53:16] >> They're related to um

[53:19] uh interpreting and enforcing certain

[53:21] codes.

[53:22] uh for reasons of things that are going

[53:24] on right now. So, regular business, but

[53:26] there are plans in the city to um uh

[53:29] continue with modernization. So, it it

[53:31] your assistance in that case will be and

[53:34] that that part of it will most likely

[53:37] would most likely be more important. So,

[53:39] it's just a yes or no. Uh do you have

[53:41] experience interpreting and enforcing

[53:44] the following codes? Right. And I'll do one at a time if that's okay. We

[53:47] don't need to explain Shar.

[53:49] >> Please. Yes. The Michigan Building Code,

[53:51] >> yes.

[53:52] >> Residential code,

[53:53] >> yes.

[53:54] >> Mechanical code,

[53:55] >> yes.

[53:55] >> Plumbing code,

[53:56] >> yes.

[53:57] >> Electrical code,

[53:58] >> yes.

[53:58] >> Fire code,

[53:59] >> yes.

[54:00] >> Property manage maintenance code.

[54:02] >> Yes.

[54:03] >> And thank you very much.

[54:06] >> Okay.

[54:08] >> Um, what do you think your role is as uh

[54:12] the city prosecutor?

[54:19] So I compare the role in some sense,

[54:22] right? You've got a county prosecutor.

[54:23] They're like the chief law enforcement

[54:24] official in the county. Um so you've got

[54:28] a difference in scale, right? And

[54:30] there's some difference in the types of

[54:32] things that a city prosecutor can do

[54:33] versus what a county prosecutor can do.

[54:36] But it's a law enforcement position.

[54:39] Basically, it's a it's a uh it's a

[54:42] position where

[54:44] based on what the charter says, I I

[54:46] assume it's similar to other city

[54:47] charters, but uh the city attorney or

[54:49] the city prosecutor in this case is

[54:51] responsible for uh enforcement of the

[54:54] laws of the city.

[54:57] >> Jackie, did you want to add to that or

[54:59] >> No, I just that I mean to bottom line it

[55:01] that's exactly the rule. Um, of course

[55:04] there's there's different subsections to

[55:06] it. Um, that I kind of covered with

[55:08] respect to the the question on

[55:10] discretion. Um, but as part of being a

[55:13] prosecutor in the city, you have to use

[55:16] discretion on a daily basis. Um, you

[55:19] also have to understand that that

[55:21] because you're you're a law enforcement

[55:23] agent that that comes with certain

[55:25] powers. Uh, and I'm very mindful of

[55:28] that. Um, I know that Brandon is too. So

[55:32] using discretion is important. Um making

[55:35] sure that that everyone's rights are

[55:37] equally um concerned and um

[55:42] basically like I said to see that

[55:43] justice is done and that's a that's a

[55:45] simple way of saying it but I do every

[55:47] day but when I go to work that's that's

[55:49] the way I feel and I've been doing that

[55:51] for lots of years but I keep that in my

[55:53] mind every time I'm there.

[55:56] Now, when if you were to be hired, would

[55:58] you come in and then look at what do we

[56:00] have and if you see something that's

[56:02] problem, would you make it aware or how

[56:04] you how do you normally handle that?

[56:07] >> Absolutely.

[56:08] >> When you're going through with all that

[56:10] stuff, you know.

[56:10] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're I mean, we're

[56:11] constantly having conversations with

[56:13] client representatives about different

[56:15] issues or coming up with ideas maybe for

[56:18] ordinances as an example. um you know

[56:20] that hey maybe you know we're seeing

[56:22] some of this maybe that means we should

[56:24] change this ordinance right in order to

[56:26] cover that activity

[56:28] >> it's really driven by the people who are

[56:30] writing the tickets and then what you

[56:32] see at court I mean we just identified

[56:35] an issue with an ordinance that we've

[56:36] had on the books forever and somebody

[56:40] noticed that there was a comma missing

[56:42] and it really changed the way that you

[56:44] read the whole ordinance and so that's a

[56:48] you know oh Okay. Well, that's something

[56:50] that's been in the books for a long

[56:51] time, but it's something that was

[56:53] brought up recently that okay, now we

[56:56] got to change the way we look at that

[56:57] and change the and possibly change the

[56:59] ordinance. So, it's it's driven by what

[57:01] you see like like Brandon already

[57:03] indicated, boots on the ground. And so,

[57:05] having a meeting with those people that

[57:07] what and then seeing what happens at the

[57:09] court level will start that process.

[57:12] We'll be able to see where the holes are

[57:14] to try to fill them. And just to be

[57:16] clear, we're not we're not like running

[57:17] around out there just changing

[57:19] ordinances like this. These are things

[57:21] there's a chain of command involved in

[57:22] it, right?

[57:24] So I just don't want I don't want to

[57:25] give the misimpression that we're you

[57:27] know talking to patrol officers and then

[57:28] writing up ordinances without sort of

[57:30] going through proper channels.

[57:32] >> No, but I I'm figuring you're you're

[57:34] prosecuting you see it and if there's a

[57:35] problem that

[57:36] >> we we've dealt with different things,

[57:38] people coming and having a question

[57:39] about something and we found out, oh,

[57:41] that got changed. Things change.

[57:44] you have something in writing one way

[57:46] and it you find out it's different. It

[57:48] gets changed at the federal level or

[57:50] state level and it it voids something or

[57:52] whatever.

[57:53] >> Sure. Yeah. State laws change and then

[57:54] it affects the way the ordinances are

[57:56] and and we're we're mindful of that too.

[57:58] Yeah.

[57:59] >> Okay.

[58:00] >> Our clock is off. I know that. But so at

[58:03] this point, let you just g give us uh

[58:06] your your final push or whatever you

[58:09] want to call it and uh what you want to

[58:12] anything questions you have for us or

[58:13] anything else you wanted to say.

[58:15] >> Sure. Um

[58:18] I guess I guess by way of question

[58:21] is

[58:24] can this be a collaborative role? I mean

[58:26] or is it just show up to court and deal

[58:28] with the tickets that you get? I mean we

[58:30] can do either, right? Obviously, I

[58:31] prefer a more collaborative kind of

[58:33] process where we're able to provide

[58:35] value that, you know, is not just

[58:37] limited to uh, you know, you show up to

[58:39] court and then you never see the client.

[58:41] Um, I don't know what's been the

[58:43] experience of city management or city

[58:45] council in that regard, but those are

[58:46] things I'd be interested in. Even if you

[58:48] can't answer today, that's okay, but

[58:49] yeah, those are things I'd be interested

[58:50] in having more discussions about.

[58:52] >> So, you prefer a more collaborative role

[58:54] with the city is what you're saying?

[58:57] >> Yes, absolutely.

[58:58] >> Okay. And I mentioned this last time,

[59:00] um, and I know we're not here to talk

[59:02] about general counsel, and last time we

[59:03] weren't there to talk about prosecution,

[59:06] but I just can't stress enough that I

[59:08] see such a such an incredible value in

[59:12] having uh the general counsel function

[59:14] and the prosecution function under one

[59:17] uh sort of roof, right? Because just

[59:19] like some of the questions that we

[59:20] talked about, uh, for example, all those

[59:22] different building codes and mechanical

[59:24] codes and things like that, those can be

[59:26] criminal or or or civil infraction type

[59:28] violations that may get enforced through

[59:30] the district court. Those also could be

[59:33] problems that have to be addressed

[59:35] civily through something like a public

[59:36] nuisance claim. Um, and if you don't

[59:39] have a general counsel that's kind of

[59:41] doing the civil stuff and a prosecutor

[59:43] that's kind of dealing with the criminal

[59:45] stuff and they're not talking to each

[59:46] other, it just strikes me that there

[59:48] could be there could be real value to

[59:50] the collaboration that can occur when

[59:52] you have uh those sort of functions

[59:54] combined.

[59:56] >> Okay.

[59:58] Anything else from council?

[1:00:00] >> I won't take that personally. Uh

[1:00:02] laughing at me, I'm sure, but [laughter]

[1:00:06] she's trying to Go ahead.

[1:00:08] >> Um and and then just the closing thought

[1:00:10] I would share I suppose is just our

[1:00:12] again um not to sound like a broken

[1:00:14] record but just our focus on community.

[1:00:16] Um you know that if we're if we're

[1:00:20] retained and maybe even if we're not

[1:00:21] retained quite frankly I'm in the area

[1:00:22] enough um but you're going to see us in your

[1:00:25] community. You're going to see us at

[1:00:27] city events, uh, you know, police

[1:00:29] fundraisers to the extent you have them,

[1:00:31] chamber events, those sorts of things

[1:00:33] because that's the type of people that

[1:00:34] we are and those are the relationships

[1:00:36] that we want to have with our clients,

[1:00:37] right? Where maybe you start a client

[1:00:39] and and you sort of develop a

[1:00:41] professional relationship and maybe even

[1:00:43] over time um, it becomes closer.

[1:00:46] >> Okay. Well, we appreciate you coming out

[1:00:48] tonight.

[1:00:49] >> Well, thank you very much for having us.

[1:00:50] We, you know, hope to see the next phase

[1:00:53] of the process.

[1:00:53] >> Thank you for being last first. Yeah.

[1:00:56] >> Thank you.

[1:00:59] >> Okay, we're going to take a five minute

[1:01:00] break.

[1:04:46] Okay, we're off to the next one. This is

[1:04:49] um G Marco Mullins and Horton. Uh if you

[1:04:53] want to introduce yourself to begin

[1:04:55] with. Uh good afternoon, mayor, mayor

[1:04:57] promp council, city manager, city clerk,

[1:05:01] chief. Uh my name is Carrie Miller. Um

[1:05:04] and I am your current city prosecutor.

[1:05:08] So it's very nice to see you guys. Um

[1:05:10] I'm uh with GM Marco Mullins and Horton.

[1:05:13] I've been with them for 10 years. I

[1:05:16] believe I've been your city prosecutor

[1:05:18] for eight, maybe nine. um been through

[1:05:23] two judges, four building officials,

[1:05:27] three city managers,

[1:05:30] two judges, I say that. Um so yeah, two

[1:05:34] chiefs of police and two court

[1:05:38] administrators,

[1:05:39] some different faces on council. Um but

[1:05:42] it's nice to see you all tonight. So

[1:05:45] that's uh that's me.

[1:05:48] >> Okay. Um,

[1:05:51] you want to give us some of your

[1:05:52] professional bio years of relevant

[1:05:54] experience, which you just did. Um,

[1:05:58] >> how many other municipalities you

[1:06:00] currently serve, availability per the

[1:06:01] judge's request, and backup when

[1:06:04] necessary, and hourly rate.

[1:06:05] >> Sure. which

[1:06:06] >> um so I became a lawyer in 2004

[1:06:11] and I immediately started clerking for a

[1:06:14] judge at circuit court in Oakland County

[1:06:16] who was uh Ed Snaznik who is an amazing

[1:06:19] human being who passed away a couple

[1:06:21] years ago which is really unfortunate

[1:06:22] because he left quite a mark on the

[1:06:24] legal profession. Um when I was working

[1:06:26] for him he had been a prosecutor and

[1:06:29] then he became a judge at the 48th

[1:06:31] district court and then circuit court.

[1:06:32] So, um, he inspired me to go into

[1:06:35] prosecution. Criminal law was my

[1:06:37] favorite class in law school. So, I went

[1:06:40] right from clerking into prosecution in

[1:06:43] 2006 and have done nothing else for 20

[1:06:47] years um, in law but that. Um, so I went

[1:06:50] to the Oakland County Prosecutor's

[1:06:52] Office where I was at for 15 years. I

[1:06:55] started out in the warrants division and

[1:06:58] worked all the way up to um, felony

[1:07:00] court. um tried drug cases, child abuse

[1:07:04] cases, juvenile cases, uh general cases,

[1:07:07] wrote warrants on everything. I was in

[1:07:09] the forfeite division for quite some

[1:07:11] time. Um so I did that for um a long

[1:07:15] time and then I decided that I would go

[1:07:18] into private practice. Was lucky enough

[1:07:20] to be hired by uh GMH

[1:07:23] in 2018 and so I started there and um my

[1:07:28] first big client there was the city of

[1:07:30] Pontiac um which was was pretty large

[1:07:33] and I was used to that one because that

[1:07:35] was in Oakland County. So then um I

[1:07:38] started to get contracts outside of

[1:07:40] Oakland County and got to practice in

[1:07:42] Wayne County for the first time which

[1:07:43] was um a whole new world and uh one of

[1:07:47] my first ones was the city of Wayne. Uh

[1:07:49] so I was here before COVID. Um, so that

[1:07:53] was really interesting and Judge Mack

[1:07:55] was here and we were in person and

[1:07:57] everything was in person and then um,

[1:08:00] COVID happened and I was at that time I

[1:08:03] was prosecuting for Redford for Wayne

[1:08:07] uh, Belleville Pontiac and so we had to

[1:08:11] pivot and uh, take COVID and learn how

[1:08:15] to do court via Zoom and a whole

[1:08:18] different world and changing everything

[1:08:20] from meeting one-on-one with people to

[1:08:23] um virtually and learning how to work

[1:08:26] Zoom. At that time we were doing trials

[1:08:29] by Zoom and um just a whole different

[1:08:32] world from the practice that I had had

[1:08:34] for such a long time. And then um

[1:08:38] transitioning back into now kind of like

[1:08:40] a quasi in-person Zoom reality that

[1:08:44] we're in now where some things are um

[1:08:46] but we're back in the courtroom. So, um,

[1:08:49] currently right now, uh, I'm doing the

[1:08:51] city of Wayne and then, um, I am doing

[1:08:55] Ly Gorian, uh, Keo Harbor,

[1:08:59] Gross Point,

[1:09:01] and, uh, Redford. I back up Redford.

[1:09:06] My firm uh, has a whole list of other

[1:09:10] um, municipalities. I think um you're

[1:09:13] familiar with a lot of them from knowing

[1:09:15] us for as long as you have. Um but we're

[1:09:18] general counsel for quite a long list.

[1:09:20] And uh we also do prosecutions for

[1:09:24] Seline and uh Northville. I think I

[1:09:28] think that's our current full list, but

[1:09:30] I I may be leaving out a prosecution

[1:09:32] docket.

[1:09:36] » Okay.

[1:09:37] And I I I know the answer. I'm going to

[1:09:39] ask you the question because I got to

[1:09:40] ask everybody the same questions. So, if

[1:09:43] your firm uh was able to provide

[1:09:45] prosecutional services uh for the 29th

[1:09:48] District Criminal Dockets every two a

[1:09:51] week, Tuesday from 8:00 a.m. to noon and

[1:09:53] one Monday a month at 8:00 a.m. noon to

[1:09:56] noon. Um and jury trials are held on

[1:09:59] Thursdays or Fridays when necessary.

[1:10:02] It's imperative that our city's legal

[1:10:04] representation be able to offer

[1:10:06] sufficient staffing to cover these

[1:10:07] dockets that you're you're able to do

[1:10:10] all that.

[1:10:10] >> Yeah, there's two bench trial dockets on

[1:10:12] Thursday afternoons a month as well. Uh,

[1:10:15] one of them is Zoom and one of them is

[1:10:16] in person. So, uh, yeah, they're in my

[1:10:19] schedule.

[1:10:20] >> Okay.

[1:10:22] Uh, Councilwoman Lawrence

[1:10:26] and please let's just try to stay we

[1:10:29] want to stay with the same questions for

[1:10:30] everybody to be in the same

[1:10:35] >> All right.

[1:10:37] Um, define discretion as it appeals to

[1:10:39] your role as a city prosecutor. How

[1:10:42] would you use this discretion?

[1:10:44] >> So I think um as a role of a prosecutor

[1:10:47] uh ethics is the most important thing is

[1:10:50] being ethical. So, you have to use

[1:10:54] discretion. Um, one of the biggest

[1:10:57] things that I do is review warrants and

[1:11:00] you've got to look at them and decide

[1:11:03] whether or not there's probable cause.

[1:11:05] But when I'm looking at a warrant, I

[1:11:07] actually kind of go a little further and

[1:11:09] try to decide if if I really can try it

[1:11:13] beyond a reasonable doubt. I mean, I you

[1:11:15] only need a probable cause to write it,

[1:11:17] but um and if there isn't, I have no

[1:11:20] problem denying a warrant, and I I will

[1:11:24] deny a warrant, and I and I will happily

[1:11:26] talk to a police officer about why.

[1:11:28] Sometimes, um there's even an

[1:11:29] educational aspect to that. Um as far as

[1:11:33] in the courtroom goes, uh discretion is

[1:11:36] a big part of the job. You know what,

[1:11:38] you have to take it's case by case. Um,

[1:11:41] which I think you're going to hear from

[1:11:42] any good lawyer or good prosecutor

[1:11:44] because that's the truth. Um, but you

[1:11:46] have to take every every case as it is

[1:11:50] and make a decision whether you've got

[1:11:52] good facts and um how you want to

[1:11:55] approach it because there's a lot of

[1:11:57] different ways to come come at a

[1:11:59] criminal case.

[1:12:00] >> Thank you. supposed to ask the same

[1:12:03] question, John.

[1:12:04] >> Yes,

[1:12:05] >> I got them written down.

[1:12:06] >> I think mine was number 12, right? All

[1:12:08] right. Let's see. Number 11.

[1:12:10] >> Yep.

[1:12:11] >> All right.

[1:12:17] Can you can you provide a

[1:12:20] breakdown of your experience with

[1:12:21] residential, commercial, industrial

[1:12:23] compliance, such as occupying buildings

[1:12:26] without a CFO and inspections right to

[1:12:29] entry?

[1:12:30] >> Yeah. So, that's actually really

[1:12:32] interesting because I um that was brand

[1:12:34] new for me when I left the prosecutor's

[1:12:36] office. When I was at the prosecutor's

[1:12:38] office, uh it was only criminal law that

[1:12:41] we did. And then when I when I did

[1:12:42] forfeite, it was quasi civil and

[1:12:44] criminal, but it was all drugrelated. Um

[1:12:47] so, I had not

[1:12:50] worked with building codes at all except

[1:12:53] for, you know, things at my own house

[1:12:55] and trying to get permits and things

[1:12:57] like that. Um, so it was a really big

[1:13:00] education to start to learn about um the

[1:13:03] building codes and things like that. But

[1:13:05] in every single one of the municipal

[1:13:07] contracts that we have, there's a

[1:13:09] building aspect to them. So, I've become

[1:13:12] a lot more comfortable um over the years

[1:13:14] in in understanding that, working with

[1:13:17] the building officials, um understanding

[1:13:19] the building code, understanding kind of

[1:13:22] the difference, you know, um in a

[1:13:24] criminal case, you want um there's a

[1:13:27] punitive aspect to it, there's a

[1:13:28] punishment aspect to it, you know, there

[1:13:30] really is. And in a building department

[1:13:33] case, it's really

[1:13:36] more of a compliance aspect, you know,

[1:13:39] and you're looking for them to to com to

[1:13:41] comply and come into code. Um, I mean, I

[1:13:45] guess sometimes there could be a, you

[1:13:46] know, a punishment if someone is really

[1:13:47] egregious or doing something terrible,

[1:13:49] but it's just something different. Um,

[1:13:51] so it was some uh a a big education, but

[1:13:54] I think I've over the last 10 years

[1:13:57] become very very comfortable working

[1:13:59] with the building department and

[1:14:00] building codes.

[1:14:04] » At what point when you're looking at

[1:14:06] compliance do you decide that it you

[1:14:08] need to go further because they're not

[1:14:10] complying? What what's the what's the

[1:14:12] parameter? How long do you wait on stuff

[1:14:14] like that? So, I think it depends on how

[1:14:17] serious of a situation obviously you're

[1:14:20] dealing with, you know. So, in a

[1:14:21] building department case, you can have

[1:14:23] everything from um a a very very

[1:14:26] dangerous building, which we all know

[1:14:28] we've had, um to somebody who's not

[1:14:31] cutting their grass or they're not

[1:14:33] bringing in their garbage cans and

[1:14:35] everything in between. So, you really

[1:14:37] have to take a look at what you're

[1:14:39] dealing with. Um, at first I think

[1:14:41] compliance is is the first step no

[1:14:45] matter what, you know, and and can they

[1:14:46] is it possible? Can they even come into

[1:14:48] compliance? Is that even something that

[1:14:50] we can talk about? Because compliance

[1:14:52] could be $5 million, but someone may

[1:14:56] actually have that. Um, so initially

[1:14:59] definitely compliance. Um, the way that

[1:15:02] I handle most building cases is um to do

[1:15:06] uh what's called a plea under

[1:15:08] advisement. And so the defendant would

[1:15:11] admit responsibility that they did

[1:15:13] indeed commit that building code

[1:15:15] violation and then they would get a

[1:15:17] certain amount of time to come into

[1:15:19] compliance and they would have review

[1:15:21] hearings um that we would keep an eye on

[1:15:24] them and then that criminal charge

[1:15:25] because as you guys know most of your

[1:15:27] cases um the building codes are still

[1:15:31] misdemeanors and a lot of cities have

[1:15:33] moved towards municipal civil

[1:15:35] infractions but in Wayne the vast

[1:15:36] majority of them are misdemeanors. So,

[1:15:38] you actually have a criminal conviction

[1:15:41] that you can hang over people's heads.

[1:15:42] And people care about that. You know,

[1:15:44] he'll stand in the way of them getting

[1:15:45] jobs or um being able to be, you know,

[1:15:48] going to their children's school, things

[1:15:49] like that. So, I can kind of hold that

[1:15:52] over their head and keep that going. And

[1:15:55] then there's fines and costs that are

[1:15:57] associated with that and keep their case

[1:15:59] open. So, that's usually my number one

[1:16:02] way of handling a building department

[1:16:03] case. Um, sometimes you can dismiss it

[1:16:06] uh earlier if they come like a grass

[1:16:08] case, like a long grass case. If they

[1:16:10] come in and they've cut their grass,

[1:16:12] maybe you could just do like a double

[1:16:13] parking fine for $180 and then just let

[1:16:17] them move on because they took care of

[1:16:19] it right away immediately. Um, obviously

[1:16:23] other cases are different. I mean, I've

[1:16:25] had trials on building department cases.

[1:16:28] I've done um administrative search

[1:16:30] warrants here on building department

[1:16:32] cases. Um, so

[1:16:35] sometimes you need to take it to a

[1:16:39] different level and we've done that here

[1:16:41] and I I have no problem doing that

[1:16:42] again.

[1:16:44] >> Okay. I may have missed it. You may have

[1:16:46] told me this. What is the hourly rate

[1:16:48] that you guys

[1:16:49] >> So we have not raised our rates since we

[1:16:52] first came in um eight or nine years ago

[1:16:56] I think. Not at all. Uh but we have

[1:16:58] suggested a a raise um with this with

[1:17:01] this uh bidding process to um $150 an

[1:17:06] hour. I think it was 125.

[1:17:08] >> Okay.

[1:17:09] Mayor Prom,

[1:17:17] » is there anything that you feel you

[1:17:21] could do as city prosecutor to improve

[1:17:23] the efficiency of city and court

[1:17:26] operations or interactions?

[1:17:30] » Oh, that's a good question. Um, so

[1:17:34] you know, there there's an efficiency

[1:17:37] just an efficiency thing. you know, it's

[1:17:39] a communication. Um, the dockets are

[1:17:42] they're they're pretty big. Uh, all

[1:17:44] things considered, there's usually

[1:17:46] somewhere like I figured I prosecuting

[1:17:48] around 2,000 to 3,000 cases monthly, I

[1:17:52] believe, like everything all together.

[1:17:54] Um, so, you know, you got to do a lot of

[1:17:57] preparation work. Um, which I do. Uh, be

[1:18:02] uh try to get things done in advance, be

[1:18:04] communicating with the clerks, uh, be on

[1:18:07] time. um just a lot of communication,

[1:18:09] but the court here is a very wellrun

[1:18:13] court. Um the staff is excellent. Uh the

[1:18:16] clerks are really good, the court

[1:18:17] administrator is great. Um so they they

[1:18:20] get me what I need. Um so as far as the

[1:18:23] court goes as the prosecutor, um it's

[1:18:26] just a matter of prepping the docket in

[1:18:29] advance and sending that out and um I do

[1:18:33] that a week in advance every every week.

[1:18:35] So,

[1:18:37] >> thank you.

[1:18:37] >> Yeah.

[1:18:38] >> Okay. Are there any matters uh you would

[1:18:42] or would not provide count um

[1:18:45] you would or would not provide counsel

[1:18:47] to the police department on?

[1:18:50] >> Absolutely none.

[1:18:53] >> Okay.

[1:18:55] Councilman Lawrence,

[1:18:58] >> how many cases have you represented with

[1:19:00] the municipality regarding environmental

[1:19:02] violations such as air quality, fugitive

[1:19:06] dust, geotechnical reports, and various

[1:19:09] soil contamination testing? Did you go

[1:19:12] to trial and what were the outcomes? Not

[1:19:15] too many. Um there's been uh some that

[1:19:19] have had some aspects to that. Um, none

[1:19:23] in none in Wayne that I can think of.

[1:19:25] And no, I have never gone to trial on

[1:19:27] one of those issues.

[1:19:31] » Okay. Uh, Councilwoman Was.

[1:19:37] >> Okay. This is going to be a twofer

[1:19:38] because I kind of screwed that up, John.

[1:19:40] Um, so since I know you are familiar

[1:19:43] with our current legal situations,

[1:19:46] what experience do you have with

[1:19:48] habitual offenders andor difficult latig

[1:19:51] latigious mentally ill or retaliatory

[1:19:55] violators?

[1:19:56] >> You know, when I was at um the Oakland

[1:19:58] County Prosecutor's Office, we had

[1:20:01] habitual felon felons a lot. Um, you

[1:20:04] would call them like a hab second, hab

[1:20:06] third, hab fourth because they were

[1:20:08] habitual. So, I mean, I have experience

[1:20:10] in dealing with habitual offenders that

[1:20:12] goes far back. Um, on a city level, it's different. You know, city

[1:20:19] prosecutions are very very different

[1:20:21] than than a county level in so many so

[1:20:23] many different ways. Um, because you're

[1:20:25] really part of the community in a

[1:20:28] different in a different way. Um, so

[1:20:32] I've become very familiar with uh

[1:20:34] specialty courts and mental health

[1:20:37] treatment courts. veterans courts, um

[1:20:40] those kind of courts that can really

[1:20:42] help people and and what they can do. Um

[1:20:46] and just how excellent they are. You

[1:20:49] know, the mental health court uh at at

[1:20:52] our court is is excellent and it's so

[1:20:55] impressive. And you know, we're involved

[1:20:56] in the veterans court in Redford, which

[1:20:59] is equally just an impressive um

[1:21:02] program. Uh as far as dealing with

[1:21:06] difficult defendants,

[1:21:09] um you know, it's part of the job and

[1:21:13] you just do it. You know, you do the job

[1:21:15] and you do it to the best of your

[1:21:17] ability and you treat them and everybody

[1:21:20] the same way that you would treat any

[1:21:22] other defendant, any other case. you

[1:21:25] know, I use the same discretion. Um, I

[1:21:27] try to be equally fair and reasonable.

[1:21:31] Um, and I think I am a very fair and

[1:21:33] reasonable prosecutor. Um, so I do the

[1:21:36] same thing, um, that I would with

[1:21:39] anybody else. Obviously, uh, it can be a

[1:21:43] challenge, you know. Um but yeah, you

[1:21:48] just got to keep doing the job and try

[1:21:50] to get a team with you to help you and

[1:21:53] um work together.

[1:21:56] >> Thank you.

[1:22:00] » Your pro.

[1:22:04] » This is a set of yes and uh no uh

[1:22:06] responses, right? One question is going

[1:22:08] to be all little things in there. And um

[1:22:11] so here we go. Uh do you have Uh, what

[1:22:15] experience? Okay, it's going to be yes

[1:22:17] or no. Uh, do you have uh experience

[1:22:19] interpreting and enforcing the following

[1:22:22] uh codes? Michigan building code?

[1:22:24] >> Yes.

[1:22:25] >> Residential code?

[1:22:27] >> Yes.

[1:22:27] >> Mechanical code?

[1:22:28] >> Yes.

[1:22:29] >> Plumbing code?

[1:22:30] >> Yes.

[1:22:31] >> Electrical code?

[1:22:32] >> Yes.

[1:22:32] >> Fire code?

[1:22:33] >> Yes.

[1:22:34] >> Property maintenance code?

[1:22:35] >> Yes.

[1:22:36] >> Thank you.

[1:22:38] >> Sure.

[1:22:40] >> Okay. So,

[1:22:43] what do you see or what do you think the

[1:22:46] role of the city prosecutor is?

[1:22:51] >> So, it's interesting because you're a

[1:22:54] lot of times as a city prosecutor,

[1:22:56] you're dealing with citizens. Um, it's

[1:22:59] not all, you know, horrible crimes or

[1:23:02] habitual. A lot of times it's uh traffic

[1:23:05] tickets and it's you know speeding

[1:23:08] tickets or like I said it's somebody who

[1:23:10] isn't taking out their trash or you know

[1:23:12] so you can really be like a face of the

[1:23:14] community and sort of get to uh know

[1:23:17] citizens and talk to people um be part

[1:23:21] of a community which I which I think is

[1:23:23] really important. Um but then you have

[1:23:25] the other level of a relationship with

[1:23:28] the police department which I really

[1:23:30] pride myself on. Um, you have an

[1:23:32] excellent police department here. Um,

[1:23:35] you have an excellent police chief,

[1:23:37] excellent lieutenants, um, an excellent

[1:23:40] deputy chief, amazing officers. Um, a

[1:23:43] lot of turnover, a lot of young officers

[1:23:45] that are coming in. Um, but I I pride

[1:23:48] myself on having a relationship because

[1:23:51] really another goal is safety of the

[1:23:53] community. And as a city prosecutor, you

[1:23:56] know, that's a boots on the ground kind

[1:23:58] of role is um you know, making sure that

[1:24:00] people are are safe and having a

[1:24:02] relationship. I think that the city

[1:24:03] prosecutor needs to work very very

[1:24:06] closely with the police department. Um

[1:24:09] and I I do um they all have my phone

[1:24:12] number. I've talked to the the chief as

[1:24:15] early as 7 o'clock in the morning, as

[1:24:16] late as 9:00 at night. Same with the

[1:24:18] deputy chief. A lot of the officers um

[1:24:21] same with on the weekends. uh they call

[1:24:23] me sometimes because they can't get a

[1:24:25] hold of their county prosecutor to sign

[1:24:27] for a search warrant and they can get a

[1:24:29] hold of me. Um so they do uh I will

[1:24:32] answer the phone for those guys um and

[1:24:34] women uh anytime um on on vacation or

[1:24:38] anything. So, I think it's relationships

[1:24:40] uh with the police, safety, and then

[1:24:43] just um also, you know, you can have a

[1:24:46] positive role like I was saying like

[1:24:47] with, you know, some people that just

[1:24:49] have never come to court before and

[1:24:51] they're coming because they have a

[1:24:52] speeding ticket or something and you

[1:24:54] know, you can have a a a good, you know,

[1:24:57] it's not the it's not a major crime,

[1:24:59] it's a speeding ticket and show them a

[1:25:01] good experience uh at their court and

[1:25:04] dealing with their their local

[1:25:05] prosecutor.

[1:25:08] Okay,

[1:25:10] I think that's all for questions

[1:25:13] >> that we did.

[1:25:15] >> What was that?

[1:25:27] » You want to say it?

[1:25:29] >> Do you want to say it?

[1:25:30] >> Go ahead. Do it.

[1:25:32] >> Um, I don't know if I'm gonna say it

[1:25:35] right, John. So, I might need you to

[1:25:36] chime in.

[1:25:37] >> Yep. That's

[1:25:37] >> If hired,

[1:25:39] will you review the cases? Oh, well,

[1:25:44] review the cases we have and advise us,

[1:25:46] but

[1:25:48] >> I think it was for ordinances, right?

[1:25:50] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[1:25:51] >> There was review and advise on.

[1:25:53] >> So, we have a lot of different

[1:25:54] ordinances and everything. What are your

[1:25:56] thoughts about reviewing looking through

[1:25:57] that stuff and seeing if there's things

[1:25:59] that we need to improve on? Do you do

[1:26:01] you look at things or, you know, how

[1:26:03] things have been written? Is there

[1:26:04] problems with stuff? Do you see, you

[1:26:06] know, do are things good or bad? What do you recommend? What would you

[1:26:10] recommend?

[1:26:11] >> Criminal ordinances, building

[1:26:13] ordinances, both

[1:26:14] >> everything, I guess.

[1:26:15] >> Okay. Yeah. So, um, you know, I think

[1:26:18] that some of the building code could use

[1:26:20] to be rewritten in some ways. You know,

[1:26:22] I think that we would be uh it'd be good

[1:26:25] to have a few municipal civil

[1:26:27] infractions instead of everything being

[1:26:29] a misdemeanor. Uh there misdemeanor can

[1:26:32] be problematic for some building co uh

[1:26:34] code cases because um they uh attorneys

[1:26:38] they get attorneys um appointed to them

[1:26:41] and then it drags out longer in court.

[1:26:44] There's a discovery process and it can

[1:26:46] go on longer. They have a right to a

[1:26:48] jury trial. Um, and so it will sometimes

[1:26:51] take a lot longer in court because of

[1:26:53] that process, which I know can be very

[1:26:56] uh frustrating to the building

[1:26:58] department because they feel like on

[1:27:00] their end, they've already given people

[1:27:02] notices and sent letters and things and

[1:27:04] so they want to see it move faster, but

[1:27:06] due process

[1:27:08] dictates that it moves a little slower.

[1:27:10] And then there's, you know, setting it

[1:27:11] for trial, setting for jury trial, which

[1:27:13] could take a longer time. So, if we

[1:27:16] considered doing a few things more like

[1:27:18] municipal civil infractions, we could

[1:27:21] move those along along a little bit

[1:27:22] faster because then they don't need um

[1:27:25] there's no jury trial or trial. It would

[1:27:27] be a formal hearing and the judge could

[1:27:29] have that quickly and then um it's a

[1:27:32] fine and if it's not paid uh it's put on

[1:27:36] your property taxes. So, that's a um an

[1:27:38] idea that we could consider. Um, some of

[1:27:41] it could maybe be just used to be

[1:27:42] updated a little bit. As far as the

[1:27:45] criminal ordinances, um, I would just

[1:27:47] like to see us add, um, and chief and I

[1:27:50] have spoken about this before, but I

[1:27:52] think it'd be nice to add a a high BAC,

[1:27:55] um, OWI ordinance to our code. Um, right

[1:27:59] now we just have a just a drunk driving

[1:28:01] one, but I think it would be helpful and

[1:28:03] give me some um, more leverage if we

[1:28:05] added a high BAC um, which is 0.17 or

[1:28:09] higher.

[1:28:10] uh and and it's a different level and

[1:28:13] the main thing that that brings in is a

[1:28:15] different um licensing sanction. Uh so

[1:28:18] uh it's still I will still have to work

[1:28:20] within the 90day frame of any local

[1:28:23] ordinance as far as jail time, but the

[1:28:26] licensing sanctions are are really um

[1:28:29] severe and they you actually lose your

[1:28:32] license for a year, then you have to put

[1:28:33] a breathalyzer in your car. So, I think

[1:28:35] um sometimes I see cases that are very

[1:28:38] high here um on occasion uh over over a

[1:28:42] two or over a three. So, that would be

[1:28:45] something that might be something we

[1:28:47] could consider. Um and we may want to

[1:28:49] consider um a domestic violence

[1:28:52] ordinance as well, which we don't have.

[1:28:55] So, we have to um write that under

[1:28:57] assault and battery if we want to keep

[1:28:59] it local. And I think uh a domestic

[1:29:02] violence might be something that we

[1:29:03] would we might want to consider adding.

[1:29:09] » Now is that normally the departments

[1:29:12] that come up with that stuff or is it

[1:29:13] the usually the prosecutors notices

[1:29:15] these things which

[1:29:17] >> I think it's sort of

[1:29:18] >> collaborative both or

[1:29:20] >> Yeah, I think it's a collaborative both

[1:29:22] really. um we'd have to identify a need

[1:29:26] and and talk with it and then decide if

[1:29:28] we were in agreement and then present it

[1:29:31] to council um for council's approval and

[1:29:35] thoughts upon it.

[1:29:36] >> Okay. And in closing, any closing things

[1:29:40] that you'd like to say?

[1:29:41] >> Um you know, I mean it's it's been a

[1:29:43] pleasure, you know, like it really has.

[1:29:46] Uh and so I've been with Wayne now for

[1:29:48] like I said, uh I think it's eight or

[1:29:50] nine years. And as I started out saying

[1:29:52] like the different department heads that

[1:29:54] I've gone through and um worked with and

[1:29:57] uh you know I got to work with Judge

[1:29:59] Mack who's um kind of like a a legend

[1:30:03] area judge really. She was you know as

[1:30:06] you guys know she started uh the mental

[1:30:08] health treatment court with uh Judge

[1:30:10] David Gubau who's another one of my

[1:30:12] mentors. Um so that was just so exciting

[1:30:15] to come here and get to work from her

[1:30:17] and and learn under her. And then um

[1:30:20] just I've really kind of come to really

[1:30:23] love Wayne in a lot of ways and the city

[1:30:26] and I didn't even really know that there

[1:30:29] was a city of Wayne, you know, before I got this job. Um I I was aware

[1:30:35] of it, but I just didn't live close. I

[1:30:37] knew it was next to Westland and but I

[1:30:39] had never been here and and um now I've

[1:30:41] been coming here, you know, regularly

[1:30:43] for for years and it's just a really

[1:30:46] it's a really nice city. Um, and like I

[1:30:48] said, I'm I think you guys should be

[1:30:50] really really proud of your police

[1:30:51] department. It's been an honor for me to

[1:30:54] work with them and to get to know them.

[1:30:56] Um, I just have nothing but respect for

[1:30:58] the the officers here. They do they do a

[1:31:01] really good job. Yeah. Really good job.

[1:31:04] And that that's all I have to say.

[1:31:07] >> Okay. Well, thank you.

[1:31:08] >> Thank you.

[1:31:10] We're going to take five

[1:31:12] minutes.

[1:35:53] Uh welcome. We are now on Rosetti

[1:35:57] Schultz, Jopic and Ambushler uh PC. And

[1:36:01] uh we'll start with letting you guys

[1:36:03] tell us about uh give us your personal

[1:36:05] bio, years of relevant service,

[1:36:08] experience, years with the existing your

[1:36:10] firm and uh and many municipalities that

[1:36:15] you currently serve, ability per the

[1:36:16] judge request, and back up when

[1:36:20] necessary, and your hourly rate.

[1:36:22] >> Um good evening. I'm Ann McLaclin as you

[1:36:25] know um I'm a shareholder with our firm

[1:36:29] and um I am a former prosecutor even

[1:36:32] though that is not generally um part of

[1:36:34] my current practice. I did formerly

[1:36:36] prosecute in Garden City and Redford

[1:36:40] Township. Um

[1:36:43] I will not be a prosecutor for Wayne

[1:36:47] should uh you choose to hire our firm

[1:36:49] for this. Um but um I do want to point

[1:36:52] out that our firm does serve many many

[1:36:55] different communities uh as prosecutors.

[1:36:58] We have presently 12 or more uh

[1:37:01] attorneys in our firm who do

[1:37:03] prosecutorial work including Matthew

[1:37:06] Wayne who is with me tonight and I would

[1:37:09] um like to introduce him to you and let

[1:37:11] him describe um his relevant experience.

[1:37:14] Um I would like to say one thing and

[1:37:17] that is that um our hourly rate that we

[1:37:20] have proposed is $195 an hour for uh

[1:37:23] prosecutorial services.

[1:37:26] >> Okay.

[1:37:28] >> Thank you. So uh good evening council

[1:37:30] members and madame clerk and madam

[1:37:32] manager and all attendees. So yes, my

[1:37:35] name is Matthew Wayne. I've been with

[1:37:37] Rosati Schultz for two years. Um, I've

[1:37:41] prosecuted in a number of places across

[1:37:43] Michigan, actually 14 communities and 13

[1:37:45] different district courts. I currently

[1:37:48] prosecute for the city of East Lancing

[1:37:50] in Giel Township. Um, in the past I have

[1:37:54] prosecuted Hand Tramic and Ingster, each

[1:37:56] of those for four years. And I have

[1:37:59] filled in for colleagues and number

[1:38:00] other communities such as Novi,

[1:38:03] Berkeley,

[1:38:05] um, Bloomfield Township, Sagen Township,

[1:38:08] and city among others.

[1:38:13] » Okay.

[1:38:16] Um

[1:38:17] we had a request from the judge uh her

[1:38:20] availability request. Uh is your firm

[1:38:22] able to provide prosecutional services

[1:38:26] for the 29th District Court's criminal

[1:38:29] dockets every week, Tuesday from 8:00

[1:38:32] a.m. to noon and one Monday a month at

[1:38:36] 8:00 a.m. to noon. Uh and jury trials

[1:38:39] are held on Tuesdays or Fridays when

[1:38:42] necessary. Uh it's imperative that our

[1:38:45] city's legal representation be available

[1:38:49] able to offer sufficient staffing to

[1:38:52] cover these dockets.

[1:38:54] >> Yes.

[1:38:55] >> So you're good. Okay.

[1:38:58] Councilwoman Lawrence

[1:39:05] » define discretion as it apply as it

[1:39:08] appeals to as it appeals to your role as

[1:39:10] city prosecutor and how would you use

[1:39:13] this discretion?

[1:39:16] >> Good question. Obviously discretion is a

[1:39:18] an important part of being a prosecutor.

[1:39:21] Um it can mean different things

[1:39:23] depending on the context. Um, but as

[1:39:26] prosecutors, and we learned this early

[1:39:28] in law school, if you are a prosecutor,

[1:39:30] you wear the hat of what's called a

[1:39:31] minister of justice. And when you're

[1:39:33] doing that, it means unlike a defense

[1:39:35] attorney, for example, who is obligated

[1:39:38] to uh go all out for their client, for

[1:39:40] lack of a better term, um I'm not always

[1:39:43] required to go all out for my client in

[1:39:46] the sense that if there is something

[1:39:49] that um is improper about an arrest, for

[1:39:53] an example, I can't proceed on that. If

[1:39:56] there is insufficient evidence to bring

[1:39:58] a case, I just can't proceed on that

[1:40:00] merely because I want to or merely

[1:40:01] because pressure me to do so. Um,

[1:40:04] discretion, again, it's probably easier

[1:40:06] um to give an example um as to define,

[1:40:10] but

[1:40:12] discretion is using sound judgment

[1:40:15] coupled with ethics and professionalism

[1:40:17] in determining what cases to prosecute

[1:40:20] and how vigorously to prosecute a

[1:40:22] defendant.

[1:40:24] Okay. Anything else?

[1:40:29] Councilwoman was

[1:40:32] >> um can you break down

[1:40:34] uh can you provide a breakdown of your

[1:40:35] experience with uh residential and

[1:40:38] commercial industrial compliance such as

[1:40:41] um such as occupying a building without

[1:40:44] a CO and an an inspector's right to

[1:40:47] enter. So I've uh for multiple

[1:40:50] communities where I've prosecuted um a

[1:40:53] lot of them who have taken their cues

[1:40:54] from the state codes. Those are issues

[1:40:56] that come up time.

[1:40:59] As far as the ability in reverse order

[1:41:01] as far as the ability for an inspector

[1:41:03] to enter um a premises um absent

[1:41:08] accident circumstances, there has to be

[1:41:10] reasonable cause for an individual um

[1:41:13] who's doing those inspections to enter

[1:41:15] onto the property. There are of course

[1:41:18] um circumstances such as um and this

[1:41:20] would not go for something like plumbing

[1:41:22] for example, but for violations that can

[1:41:24] be seen from the street or from someone

[1:41:27] else's property with their permission.

[1:41:30] um that would be different. Um with um

[1:41:33] certain um violations, plumbing and

[1:41:35] mechanical, um those get a little more

[1:41:38] pressing if there's something dangerous

[1:41:40] um or if there something dangerous is

[1:41:43] suspected of occurring there and it may

[1:41:44] be necessary to engage the court because

[1:41:47] unlike with um other types of offenses,

[1:41:50] the the logic is you can't wait until

[1:41:53] something bad happens. There has to be

[1:41:55] some kind of impetus to um be able to go

[1:41:58] and proactive about that and I've had to

[1:42:01] do that. I've had to deal with um uh in

[1:42:06] Hammock, for example, an older community

[1:42:08] with structures there. Um it was

[1:42:10] imperative that we had to go in there

[1:42:12] and we had to take care of problem

[1:42:14] structures because there were buildings

[1:42:15] there that some of them were 100 years

[1:42:17] old and they were just flatout dangerous

[1:42:19] and um it's certainly not a glamorous

[1:42:22] part of prosecuting. Not that any of it

[1:42:24] is, but it's necessary. It has to get

[1:42:26] done for the safety of the community.

[1:42:28] Um, it's an eyesore, but beyond that,

[1:42:31] nobody wants to hear about a kid or

[1:42:32] anybody else for that matter getting

[1:42:33] injured because someone's not taking

[1:42:35] care of their property. And so, I

[1:42:37] consider it just as an important part of

[1:42:39] prosecuting as

[1:42:42] prosecuting drunk drivers or assault or

[1:42:44] anything else. Um, if the community has

[1:42:46] prohibitions against it, then it's

[1:42:48] something that needs to be paid

[1:42:49] attention.

[1:42:52] >> Thank you.

[1:42:53] >> Okay. protest.

[1:42:57] » Is there anything that you could do as a

[1:43:01] city prosecutor to improve the

[1:43:03] efficiency of city court operations just

[1:43:06] in general?

[1:43:07] >> So that of course without knowing

[1:43:09] exactly how things run over there.

[1:43:11] That's something I'd have to be able to

[1:43:14] um have to take a look at. But that

[1:43:16] said, I mean any community or I've ever

[1:43:19] um prosecuted um I've met with the

[1:43:21] police department and the administrator

[1:43:24] to go over policies and procedures. Um,

[1:43:27] I like to know why something's being

[1:43:28] done in a certain way. Um, I understand

[1:43:30] certain communities want things done in

[1:43:32] a certain way, but sometimes there are

[1:43:34] policies and procedures which are

[1:43:36] slowing things down or they're kind of

[1:43:38] relics. Um, I've been there's a I've

[1:43:42] prosecuted in some courts where, for

[1:43:43] example, um the courts continue to use

[1:43:47] discovery orders. um and that's for

[1:43:49] misdemeanor cases and that's kind of a

[1:43:51] throwback to before 2020 when the court

[1:43:53] rules changed when uh discovery was not

[1:43:56] mandatory for misdemeanor cases. That's

[1:43:58] not the case now. So even if there and I

[1:44:01] I'm not saying that this would uh this

[1:44:03] uh condition would present itself, but

[1:44:05] if I found for example that discovery

[1:44:07] was not being offered um right away,

[1:44:09] exculpatory material, something that

[1:44:11] would tend to um to disprove someone's

[1:44:15] guilt. Um, that's the kind of thing I

[1:44:17] like to get on that right away to move

[1:44:19] cases along um, and get those materials

[1:44:22] over there because we have an obligation

[1:44:24] and then rather than um, if it's

[1:44:26] something rather than wait for an

[1:44:28] attorney to ask me, I've also developed

[1:44:29] a lot of relationships with defense

[1:44:31] attorneys and so um, those folks who

[1:44:34] I've worked with um, it's easy for me to

[1:44:35] reach out in advance and to work

[1:44:38] something out and to keep the docket

[1:44:40] from getting clogged. Um, in terms of

[1:44:43] other matters of efficiency, I don't

[1:44:45] know, this kind of uh might bleed into

[1:44:48] some other areas, but um I've always

[1:44:51] been big on helping um the police

[1:44:52] department if requested um with

[1:44:55] information about how to write more

[1:44:57] efficient police reports. Um we've

[1:45:01] worked with police departments um and

[1:45:03] helping officers who have little or no

[1:45:05] experience testifying um because one of

[1:45:08] the worst things is to be put in a

[1:45:10] position where never testify before any

[1:45:12] type of proceeding and you know god

[1:45:14] forbid you don't want it to happen but

[1:45:16] then somebody catastrophic happened

[1:45:18] someone has to testify and I have seen

[1:45:20] that happen in other communities there

[1:45:22] was a state case not one of the ones

[1:45:24] that I have but there was some officers

[1:45:25] never testified an experienced um

[1:45:28] assistant prosecuting attorney from

[1:45:30] county and they had defense attorneys

[1:45:32] who've been doing this for 40 years.

[1:45:34] Well, guess who got chewed up and spit

[1:45:35] out? Those new officers. I never want to

[1:45:38] see that happen. So, I pledged from that

[1:45:40] point that I would always make sure that

[1:45:42] the departments and all the education um

[1:45:45] any resources that we could possibly

[1:45:46] give them so that they could um testify

[1:45:49] efficiently, testify knowledgeably, and

[1:45:52] do a good job so that we don't let the

[1:45:54] bad guys loose, so to speak.

[1:45:57] >> Okay.

[1:45:59] So, are there any matters you would or

[1:46:03] would not provide counsel to the police

[1:46:05] department on?

[1:46:08] >> I can't really think of any. I mean, we

[1:46:09] like, as I just uh detailed, we we do so

[1:46:12] many in terms of um testimonial

[1:46:14] training, but we also offer um

[1:46:16] constitutional advice, work on search

[1:46:18] and seizures, best practices. Um if it connects with law enforcement, if

[1:46:23] it's going to make the community safer,

[1:46:25] it's going to make the police department

[1:46:26] better. And I have that knowledge. I'm

[1:46:28] absolutely going to share it. And uh

[1:46:32] something that's nice about having a

[1:46:33] firm with so many people with uh so many

[1:46:35] experience because as I believe she

[1:46:37] said, that's really all our firm does.

[1:46:40] Um if there's something I don't happen

[1:46:41] to know or if I'm not up to, you know,

[1:46:45] this up to speed exactly in the moment,

[1:46:48] I can almost guarantee we have somebody

[1:46:49] at our firm who who is up on that and

[1:46:52] who has done that, who has briefed the

[1:46:54] matter and probably litigated it. And um

[1:46:57] That's a great thing about our firm.

[1:46:58] Those attorneys always making themselves

[1:47:00] available um as a resource. So again, I can't really think of anything that I

[1:47:05] would counsel the police department on.

[1:47:07] I said anything that's going to make a

[1:47:08] better law better law enforcement agency

[1:47:10] and a safer community. I know I'm going

[1:47:13] to offer my services.

[1:47:16] Uh, Councilman Lawrence,

[1:47:22] » how many cases have you represented with

[1:47:24] a municipality regarding environmental

[1:47:26] violations such as air quality, fugitive

[1:47:30] dust, geotechnical reports, and various

[1:47:33] soil contamination testing? Did you go

[1:47:36] to trial and what were the outcomes? I

[1:47:38] have never had to prosecute any type of

[1:47:40] environmental um ordinances or any types

[1:47:43] of environmental violations.

[1:47:49] And while I have not prosecuted them in

[1:47:51] a in a criminal case um for ordinance

[1:47:54] enforcement, I have dealt with um

[1:47:57] environmental concerns and worked with

[1:48:00] Eagle, which um does have jurisdiction

[1:48:02] over things like air quality um and

[1:48:06] fugitive dust as as is described in the

[1:48:08] in your question. Um and our role um in

[1:48:13] that case I was hired as a special

[1:48:15] counsel for another city and they asked

[1:48:17] me to initially to look into the

[1:48:20] possibility of um abating a nuisance and

[1:48:24] preventing demolition of a what would

[1:48:26] they call it historic building um

[1:48:28] because it contained asbestous and there

[1:48:31] was some remediation that needed to be

[1:48:33] done. So our role in that particular

[1:48:35] case was to work with Eagle. Um we

[1:48:39] obtained the uh property developer and

[1:48:42] or demolition companies um um promise

[1:48:47] and they carried through with it that

[1:48:49] they would provide us with daily air

[1:48:51] monitor uh and air quality readings and

[1:48:54] things like that. so that we um ended up

[1:48:57] proactively preventing any types of

[1:49:02] problems that would affect the

[1:49:03] neighboring properties and communities.

[1:49:06] So that um that was, you know, turned

[1:49:08] out to be done safely and while people

[1:49:11] weren't happy that the building was

[1:49:13] eventually demolished, it was done in a

[1:49:15] safe manner and we were able to keep our

[1:49:17] tabs on that.

[1:49:19] [clears throat]

[1:49:24] Councilwoman was.

[1:49:27] >> Okay. So, kind of a two-part. How

[1:49:29] familiar are you with our current legal

[1:49:31] situations?

[1:49:33] And do you have any experience with

[1:49:35] habitual offenders andor difficult

[1:49:39] latigious, mentally ill or retaliatory

[1:49:42] violators?

[1:49:44] So I am aware obviously conversations

[1:49:46] with an about some of the more

[1:49:51] interesting people

[1:49:54] but the that's any community. Uh to

[1:49:56] answer your question um I dealt with um

[1:49:59] all kinds of individuals in prosecuting.

[1:50:02] Yes. So people who are retaliatory yes

[1:50:04] sovereign citizens yes people who

[1:50:06] threaten violence yes

[1:50:08] Ohio State fans. the very worst of

[1:50:10] people.

[1:50:12] Um, no, but all all joking aside, that

[1:50:14] really that's any community. Um, again,

[1:50:18] that's, you know, in those folks who

[1:50:19] reside here or who are in the court

[1:50:21] system, they're still entitled to their

[1:50:23] rights. Um, I personally try to kill

[1:50:25] them with kindness and, you know, be

[1:50:28] respectful to them, but at the end of

[1:50:30] the day, you know, you have to do what

[1:50:31] you have to do. And um I know you know

[1:50:35] something that comes up in that respect

[1:50:37] when you have folks who have civil suits

[1:50:38] sometimes they get picked up for traffic

[1:50:40] violations or you know just other events

[1:50:44] and that's where that discretion comes

[1:50:46] in and and the ethics you have to you

[1:50:48] know go about prosecuting them the way

[1:50:51] that you would prosecute anyone else.

[1:50:53] You have to look at what the criminal

[1:50:54] record is. You have to kind of you know

[1:50:56] divorce yourself from the fact that you

[1:50:57] have civil litigation. Um

[1:51:02] part of what you do as a prosecutor.

[1:51:04] >> Thank you,

[1:51:06] >> Mayor Proto.

[1:51:08] >> Uh, this is a

[1:51:11] this question has several parts in it,

[1:51:14] each one being answered with yes or no.

[1:51:16] An experience question with several

[1:51:19] parts. Uh, what experience do you have

[1:51:20] interpreting and enforcing um these

[1:51:22] following codes? The Michigan uh do you

[1:51:26] have experience interpreting and

[1:51:28] enforcing these following codes? The

[1:51:30] Michigan Building Code. Yes.

[1:51:32] >> The residential code or any residential

[1:51:35] code?

[1:51:36] >> Yes.

[1:51:36] >> Mechanical code?

[1:51:38] >> Yes.

[1:51:38] >> Plumbing code?

[1:51:40] >> Yes.

[1:51:40] >> Electrical code?

[1:51:42] >> Yes.

[1:51:42] >> Fire code?

[1:51:44] >> Yes.

[1:51:44] >> And property maintenance code?

[1:51:46] >> Yes.

[1:51:47] >> Thank you.

[1:51:49] Okay.

[1:51:55] So if also I wanted to mention one other

[1:51:57] thing when you you brought up the uh the

[1:52:00] hours that the court has asked the

[1:52:02] prosecutor to be available. Um it's

[1:52:05] always been my practice at well as well

[1:52:06] that in addition to being present for

[1:52:09] the times that the court needs me. I

[1:52:11] don't, you know, keep an eye on clock

[1:52:13] and it's not like if someone needs me

[1:52:15] and it's, you know, past the hours of,

[1:52:18] you know, 12, it's not 12 and 8 on a

[1:52:20] Tuesday or that one Monday. That by no

[1:52:22] means is going to stop me from uh taking

[1:52:25] care of a case. I often get called on um

[1:52:29] to hey, can you jump on Zoom? We have

[1:52:31] somebody who got picked up and we need

[1:52:33] to argue for bond. This person's

[1:52:35] violent. Um, you know, I had it happen

[1:52:38] 5:30 on a Friday before other random

[1:52:40] times. As far as I'm concerned, that's

[1:52:42] just part of it. So, as long as I'm

[1:52:44] available, as long as I'm not in a

[1:52:46] hearing or in court somewhere else,

[1:52:48] again, obviously, I will be there. You

[1:52:50] know, if your city selects us as your

[1:52:53] firm, I will be there um for the hours

[1:52:56] in question. But again, by no means um

[1:52:59] means I would be confined to just

[1:53:00] working those hours.

[1:53:03] >> Okay.

[1:53:04] So, what do you think uh your role as

[1:53:08] city prosecutor is?

[1:53:12] >> Well, I think I've already touched by

[1:53:13] some of this, but I mean, the first and

[1:53:15] foremost, it's assisting and maintaining

[1:53:17] public safety, and that's working with

[1:53:19] the police department and other law

[1:53:20] enforcement agencies to keep the

[1:53:22] community safe in any way, shape, or

[1:53:25] form that I that I can. Um, I need to

[1:53:28] ensure that the law is executed fairly

[1:53:30] and impartially,

[1:53:32] maintain discretion when I need to.

[1:53:34] exercise um sound judgment

[1:53:37] and um also part of that discretion is

[1:53:40] um

[1:53:42] doing things with an eye not only for

[1:53:44] justice but also for judicial economy.

[1:53:46] Sometimes those go hand in hand,

[1:53:48] sometimes they don't. Um but I think you

[1:53:50] know it's a balance of all those and

[1:53:52] then as mentioned um educating and

[1:53:54] providing resources to the police

[1:53:57] department and for that matter anyone

[1:53:59] else um

[1:54:01] is part of the city who wants to avail

[1:54:03] themselves of any other training or

[1:54:06] program.

[1:54:09] >> Okay. Now, if you were to selected,

[1:54:13] would you come in and look at our

[1:54:14] ordinances and the things that we have

[1:54:17] and make recommendations of things that

[1:54:18] need to be fixed or how how do you

[1:54:20] normally handle something like that?

[1:54:23] >> I think I would work with Ann here. So,

[1:54:25] I don't Yeah, I've already looked at

[1:54:27] some of the ordinances. I've noticed

[1:54:28] like some of the differences um noticed

[1:54:31] that the city of Wayne um some of the

[1:54:33] ordinances rather the extent of the

[1:54:35] ordinances are not as um great as in

[1:54:38] other communities. like lesser offenses

[1:54:40] are handled, excuse me, less offenses or

[1:54:42] fewer offenses rather are handled at the

[1:54:44] local level compared to other

[1:54:46] communities. Um I don't know that it's

[1:54:48] my place to come in and say if

[1:54:49] something's wrong. I mean I like to know

[1:54:51] how it's working. I think that's an

[1:54:53] important part and to gauge um you know

[1:54:56] talking with uh you know folks over at

[1:54:59] the court talking with the police

[1:55:00] department talking with any of you you

[1:55:02] know if how you think that these

[1:55:04] ordinances are working is you know would

[1:55:06] you like to see them um you know be more

[1:55:09] farreaching is there anywhere you think

[1:55:11] the ordinances need to kind of pull back

[1:55:13] and then again working with an or others

[1:55:16] to do the same thing to leers with you

[1:55:19] and and determine what we can do there

[1:55:21] but uh we have uh even though it's not

[1:55:23] something that I do primarily of course

[1:55:24] we do have a lot of experience in um

[1:55:27] preparing ordinances and we have a lot

[1:55:29] of materials that we can pull from.

[1:55:32] >> I would just like to um add that um that

[1:55:36] was something that we um included with

[1:55:39] our general counsel

[1:55:42] um proposal as well. But um it is

[1:55:47] commonly our practice to note where we

[1:55:51] feel that the mechanisms that exist are

[1:55:54] not sufficient to do the job of um

[1:55:58] taking care of the problems that the

[1:56:00] city may have. Um, for example, you

[1:56:03] know, there is the state housing law and

[1:56:06] the dangerous building code within the

[1:56:08] state housing law, but it does that also

[1:56:10] allows the city to pass its own housing

[1:56:13] code and perhaps um expand on some of

[1:56:18] the particulars in terms of what

[1:56:21] mechanisms are available to to take care

[1:56:24] of problem properties. Um, especially

[1:56:27] when you've got dangerous buildings. um

[1:56:29] you know for um the um in another

[1:56:33] community they didn't have their

[1:56:35] demolition board uh convened properly

[1:56:38] and so their hands were tied as far as

[1:56:40] how far they could go with dealing with

[1:56:42] those properties. So that's something

[1:56:43] that we suggested um and that that

[1:56:46] actually wasn't a case where we had a um

[1:56:49] they weren't our direct client. we were

[1:56:50] representing them in litigation related

[1:56:52] to that issue and I flat out told them

[1:56:55] you need to take care of this otherwise

[1:56:57] you're going to keep ending up in civil

[1:56:58] litigation if you don't um correct that

[1:57:02] problem and make sure that those

[1:57:03] mechanisms are available to your you

[1:57:05] know your code enforcement officers and

[1:57:07] hearing officers [snorts]

[1:57:12] » any other questions from

[1:57:15] Okay so if [snorts] you want to give us

[1:57:16] a closing

[1:57:18] pitch do Do you do you like do you think

[1:57:21] it's something that should be

[1:57:24] prosecution by itself or altogether and

[1:57:27] then give your closing?

[1:57:30] >> Okay. Um well um we have a number of

[1:57:32] comm we represent a number of

[1:57:34] communities where we are general counsel

[1:57:36] and um we have attorneys in our firm who

[1:57:39] do their prosecutorial work. Um I can I

[1:57:43] can name you a handful right off the top

[1:57:45] of my head. Um and those um jobs seem to

[1:57:50] go hand in hand um because then you you

[1:57:53] have the opportunity to work together on

[1:57:55] something like what we just mentioned

[1:57:57] where um you know we feel that the

[1:57:59] prosecutorial mechanisms are

[1:58:01] insufficient

[1:58:02] um for the in the ordinances that are

[1:58:05] available right now um and recommend

[1:58:08] those types of um amendments or whatever

[1:58:10] changes need to be made. So, um, we do believe that, um, working with

[1:58:18] general counsel and prosecutors, working

[1:58:20] side by side for the same community

[1:58:21] allows us to have a more cohesive and,

[1:58:25] um, consistent approach to each

[1:58:29] community rather than having to contact,

[1:58:31] if we're general counsel, you know,

[1:58:33] having to contact a prosecutor and say,

[1:58:35] "Hey, this is something we're thinking

[1:58:37] about. What do you think?" You know, it

[1:58:38] just makes it easier to have both. Um

[1:58:41] but certainly we um given that we have

[1:58:44] so much experience, we also do prosecute

[1:58:47] for communities that we don't

[1:58:48] represented as general counsel. So it's

[1:58:50] not exclusive. But I I p personally I

[1:58:54] think it's probably preferable to have

[1:58:57] both because then you have the

[1:58:59] opportunity to serve the community in a

[1:59:01] much broader way than you do in either

[1:59:03] individual instance.

[1:59:05] >> Okay. Any closing? Um, no. I I think you

[1:59:10] know, you know, you know me, you know

[1:59:11] our firm. Um, and you know, we would be

[1:59:15] certainly very honored and privileged if

[1:59:17] you chose us um to um be your general

[1:59:20] counsel and prosecutorial firm. Um, and

[1:59:23] we're happy to serve the city of Wayne

[1:59:25] in any way that we can.

[1:59:27] >> Okay. Well, thank you.

[1:59:28] >> Thank you.

[1:59:57] >> Okay, let's go ahead and move the

[1:59:58] agenda.

[2:00:00] >> Public comments for matters not on the

[2:00:02] agenda. Public comment is conducted in

[2:00:04] accordance with applicable laws. Public

[2:00:06] comment is limited to three minutes

[2:00:08] which will begin when the speaker

[2:00:09] approaches the podium unless the time is

[2:00:11] extended by a majority vote of city

[2:00:12] council. All public comment shall be

[2:00:15] directed to city council and they shall

[2:00:16] not respond. Public comment shall not be

[2:00:19] disruptive, any violator of public

[2:00:20] comment. Procedures may be ordered to be

[2:00:23] seated immediately or removed by the

[2:00:25] chairperson of the meeting or the

[2:00:27] chairperson's designate.

[2:00:29] >> Okay. Any public comment comments on

[2:00:31] matters on the agenda this evening? Yes.

[2:00:38] » First, I'm sorry about my attire, but I

[2:00:40] didn't know this meeting was going on,

[2:00:42] so I just took off and flew down here.

[2:00:45] Um, Nancy Pride, I live on Courier

[2:00:47] Street. Um,

[2:00:50] two questions. I know about the flack

[2:00:53] camera or the flack t cameras. if

[2:00:56] there's any first or second or third

[2:00:59] parties that have attached anything to

[2:01:01] them, um they need to come down. Um the

[2:01:05] other one is do we have a large drone

[2:01:09] that hovers our city?

[2:01:15] And there was one other one that I

[2:01:17] wanted.

[2:01:19] Oh, yes.

[2:01:21] We have seen on uh Facebook, and I know

[2:01:24] you can't believe everything you see on

[2:01:26] Facebook, but I've talked to other

[2:01:28] people and they do have them. Do we or

[2:01:31] are we considering putting our police

[2:01:35] officers in the schools with the stun

[2:01:38] mits on their hands?

[2:01:42] [clears throat] They have them and they

[2:01:44] are putting them in the high schools and

[2:01:45] the different places. So, I want to know

[2:01:48] if this is what

[2:01:51] Nope. Okay. Because to me that's that's

[2:01:54] just such an invasion

[2:01:57] um on young people.

[2:02:00] I feel that it's they're trying to force

[2:02:03] them to compliance and not be

[2:02:08] a citizen of the United States. Thank

[2:02:10] you.

[2:02:10] >> Okay. Thank you. Anyone else?

[2:02:13] Yes.

[2:02:17] I was uh John Mills from Chestnut

[2:02:19] Street. Um I was not able to attend your

[2:02:22] August 13th special meeting that uh

[2:02:25] appeared to have been on legal counsel

[2:02:27] as well. Uh just for clarification, was

[2:02:30] that for general counsel and tonight is

[2:02:32] prosecutorial?

[2:02:35] >> Yes, that's all. Thanks.

[2:02:39] >> Okay.

[2:02:42] » Can I get a motion to adjurnn?

[2:02:48] >> Oh, second.

[2:02:49] >> All in favor?

[2:02:50] >> I

[2:02:51] >> opposed. Motion carries.

[2:02:53] >> Have a great night.

August 25, 2026 - City of Wayne Study Session

Agenda

Transcript