[0:00] - The CACJ is a nonprofit focused on restorative justice,

[0:03] a system of criminal justice

[0:05] that focuses on the rehabilitation of offenders

[0:07] through reconciliation with victims

[0:09] and the community, it's justice with the goal

[0:12] to heal rather than punish.

[0:15] Our five programs are pretrial supervision, youth aid panel,

[0:18] the youth counseling pilot program, mediation

[0:22] and community conferencing.

[0:24] Our program save taxpayers over $400,000 per year,

[0:28] empower individuals

[0:29] and groups to resolve their own conflicts and are affordable

[0:33] and accessible to the community.

[0:35] To learn more or to make a referral,

[0:38] visit our website or give us a call.

[0:44] - The Centre Region Active Adult Center is a vibrant,

[0:46] inclusive, and happening location designed

[0:48] for active adults 55 years and over to be social

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[0:53] staying close to home.

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[1:03] Whether you prefer line dancing followed by a walk

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[1:07] the center is sure to have something for you.

[1:09] Visit crpr.org for more info.

[1:14] - I'd like to call the order this, this meeting.

[1:17] This works. This

[1:18] - Meeting is being recorded and summarized.

[1:22] - Okay, I'll Thank you. I'll start again.

[1:25] I would like to call the order of the

[1:28] this work session meeting

[1:29] of the Ferguson Township Planning Commission for Monday,

[1:33] September 14th, 2026.

[1:35] This meeting has been properly advertised in accordance

[1:38] with Pennsylvania Sunshine Act as a hybrid meeting

[1:41] with the option to attend virtually via the WebEx platform

[1:46] or in person here in the main meeting room.

[1:51] With, with that, we'll have a Roll Call.

[1:55] - Louis Steinberg. Here. Bill Keo. Here. Nick.

[1:59] Tony Here. Michael Radus. Here.

[2:02] Michael AK Cannot attend this evening. Ralph Wheland here.

[2:07] Shannon Holiday.

[2:13] She was there. Yeah, she's online.

[2:17] Melissa Strock.

[2:20] - I see - She just popped up there. I'm here.

[2:25] Kayla Corl here. And Lisa Strickland.

[2:30] Here, chair. We have a quorum.

[2:33] - Thank you. Next on the agenda is Public Comment,

[2:37] and as I indicate each meeting, this is an opportunity

[2:42] for people who are here, who are representing for the public

[2:46] are themselves,

[2:47] but members of the public to address, raise any question

[2:52] or issue they'd like that is not on the agenda.

[2:56] The, the item. And

[2:57] of course on the agenda today is really just one item

[3:00] and we will all have the opportunity to share thoughts

[3:05] and raise questions with regard to it.

[3:08] So at this point, I'm simply asking if there's anybody here

[3:11] from the public who would like to make a comment with regard

[3:15] to any matter other than the DA data center question.

[3:21] Okay. Oh, oh, yes ma'am. I'm sorry. Yes.

[3:26] Would if you'd like to come forward and identify yourself

[3:30] and speak to Mike so that we can all hear.

[3:39] - Hi everybody, my name is Natalie Ray

[3:41] and I'm a Ferguson Township resident.

[3:43] I just wanted to make a comment

[3:45] that I'd like more information about what's happening at

[3:47] West Aaron Drive the removal of trees.

[3:50] Looks like it's been clear cut

[3:51] and I saw an article in Center Daily Times about it

[3:55] and so just would like more information

[3:57] about what's going on there. Thank you.

[3:59] - Thank you. I'll just defer to the staff.

[4:01] Does staff have any more information to provide to us?

[4:06] - Not at this time, but we,

[4:08] we do not have a formal submission

[4:11] and we do not a formal land development

[4:13] submission for that location.

[4:15] - And I, we probably read the same article

[4:19] and the article did explain the

[4:24] idiosyncrasy, if that's the correct word of the law, in

[4:28] that if you are the owner of property, you do have the right

[4:33] to do what you want on it in terms of what's on it

[4:39] without any municipal approval.

[4:42] If you have submitted a plan for development,

[4:46] then you come under the auspices

[4:48] of the municipality in terms of compliance.

[4:51] So it's goes back, I think, to the fact that each of us,

[4:56] at each of us who is a pro a a property owner can do

[5:00] what we want on our property

[5:05] without municipal interference

[5:07] unless we are asking the municipality

[5:10] to be able to do something.

[5:11] So I think there have been two such

[5:15] incidences here in the Township, the one

[5:18] that's off Blue Course Drive,

[5:21] and then this one, which is in patent

[5:23] and in Ferrison Township.

[5:25] But we, there is nothing at this point.

[5:30] - I think just, just in terms of clarification, Louis,

[5:37] the you can do what you want on your property

[5:42] reference is related to our tree Ordinance.

[5:47] Not anything in general and,

[5:50] and in our tree Ordinance, as long as the owner

[5:53] of the property has not submitted any kind of a plan,

[5:59] they can in fact, you know,

[6:03] have it timbered because that's protected

[6:06] and governed by state law.

[6:10] - And to throw another wrinkle into that,

[6:12] you may find it difficult to believe,

[6:14] but trees are not considered real estate.

[6:17] They're a crop on your property.

[6:21] I been, this meeting is being

[6:26] - Recorded and summarized.

[6:27] - If you, if you are growing corn, you would've the right

[6:30] to harvest your corn,

[6:31] you can harvest your tree or cut your trees.

[6:34] Okay. With that it will go on.

[6:37] We have the minutes, which have been prepared.

[6:40] And is there, are there any questions

[6:42] or comments with regard to the minutes?

[6:47] I move approval. Okay, second,

[6:50] - I'll second - On favor and say aye.

[6:54] Aye. Aye. And it's repetitive,

[6:56] but I'll say, well, I won't say in every meeting,

[6:58] but they're fantastic minutes

[7:01] both in the detail and the accuracy.

[7:03] Accuracy. Thank you. Thank you. Welcome.

[7:06] A staff report board of Supervisors report.

[7:11] - I am happy to say with our active land development plans

[7:14] that Blaise Alexander Hyundai has been formally recorded.

[7:18] You may note that it has been removed from the list.

[7:23] Aside from that, I would be happy

[7:24] to take any questions on the land development plans.

[7:30] - Okay. And Miles is, we jumped,

[7:34] essentially jumped ahead,

[7:36] but are there, is there any report from Board

[7:39] of Supervisors with,

[7:41] - I apologize. That's

[7:43] - All right.

[7:45] - I, I missed the last board meeting.

[7:47] Kim, would you, do we have anything

[7:49] to report from planning and Zoning? Nothing new.

[7:52] - Okay. Thank you

[7:54] - Mr.

[7:55] Chair. Just as a comment, Toma, thank you for

[7:58] adding on a chart the street addresses

[8:01] for the different sites.

[8:03] It makes a difference. It it, I can just plug that into my

[8:07] GPS and my car gate takes me there.

[8:10] I don't have to figure out everything.

[8:12] So thank you very much for that clarification and adding it.

[8:17] - Okay. I might note, Shannon,

[8:20] you are now here is correct, although I don't know.

[8:25] You, you, Shannon. Shannon, you're, you're, you're present,

[8:28] present, is that right? Right.

[8:30] - Yeah. Yes, I am.

[8:33] Well, as you can see, I was having some,

[8:35] some technical challenges, but yes sir, I am here.

[8:38] - Very good. Good. Okay. Okay.

[8:40] So which leads to, is there A-C-R-P-C report? Report

[8:46] - I will defer to Phil.

[8:50] He attended in my stat

[8:53] because I was under the understanding

[8:55] that we would've line bash, but then it moved.

[8:59] So still,

[9:01] - Yes, I attended and there were two

[9:04] or three items on the agenda

[9:06] for the regional planning commission.

[9:09] The first one was with regard to College Township,

[9:13] and if you remember, college Township asked through A DRI

[9:18] to be able to extend the sewer service area

[9:21] to accommodate future growth of a RL.

[9:24] Well, that went through,

[9:26] that got approved at the COG meetings.

[9:30] And so now College Township was following that up

[9:34] with then a rezoning request so

[9:36] that the land is now zoned appropriately

[9:40] that the DRI has been passed.

[9:42] So we, we recommended they had the request in

[9:45] and we recommended that, that it complied with and,

[9:50] and was okay with the Centre Region Planning

[9:54] and Planning department.

[9:59] Second thing on the agenda had to do with Harris Township

[10:04] and they had two proposals in terms

[10:08] of amendments to their ordinances.

[10:11] One of 'em had to do with, with

[10:14] becoming a little more specific

[10:16] regarding shade trees in their Zoning

[10:18] Ordinance and their street trees.

[10:20] And the other had to do with

[10:23] the re the technical requirements for

[10:26] having signs development sign posted

[10:29] at the property line when a development is being proposed.

[10:34] We supported both of those.

[10:36] The third item was a, a little bit interesting.

[10:39] It is been in the news a lot about Addison Court.

[10:42] This came from the Borough and,

[10:46] and I don't understand all of the details

[10:51] surrounding this issue, but apparently

[10:56] regardless of what the Borough is going to do with

[11:00] Addison Court, and it appears they're gonna buy it

[11:02] or rent it or lease it or something to protect it.

[11:06] But along with that whole process, there was a request

[11:11] by the owner to have a change in the height requirements

[11:16] related to that building.

[11:21] Originally, he wanted, I think, to

[11:25] demolish the building and put up highrise.

[11:28] And so this is part of that.

[11:31] And for some reason that request kind

[11:34] of is hung on even though

[11:36] that's not being what's being discussed.

[11:39] And the planning commission for the Borough

[11:45] had this in front of them

[11:47] and they recommended to the Borough

[11:50] against making any changes until the

[11:55] full status of Addison Court has been established.

[11:59] And, and we know what, what, what, what is going to happen.

[12:03] And the planning commission, commission planning,

[12:06] commission commission supported,

[12:07] supported the Borough Planning Commission recommendation,

[12:11] recommendation that a hold be put on this

[12:14] or not granted until

[12:16] after Addison court discussions

[12:20] and resolution has been made.

[12:23] So those were the, those were the only items that were on

[12:26] the plan commission agenda at the region.

[12:29] Region. I will ask Shannon and their next meeting.

[12:34] Is the luncheon meeting meeting this month? Month?

[12:37] Do you want me to attend? Attend?

[12:38] Because there's a luncheon meeting. Meeting,

[12:41] - Yeah.

[12:42] I won't be able to be present for that.

[12:44] - Okay. Okay. I will do, I will do that.

[12:46] That I'll take care of of that. Thank you. Thank

[12:48] - You.

[12:49] Thank you.

[12:50] - Same thing, bill. Okay, lunch

[12:55] next on, on the agenda is unfinished business committee,

[12:59] which which leads to the, really the only matter

[13:03] before us this evening, it is the draft

[13:06] of the data center conditional use Ordinance amendment.

[13:10] The purpose today is for us to have a discussion

[13:13] with regard to it.

[13:15] Staff has drafted the proposed amendment

[13:20] to Ordinance amendment.

[13:23] And without getting

[13:28] saying anymore, other than say, certainly a lot

[13:31] of work was put into this

[13:32] and it represents, I think, think a lot of of thought.

[13:37] But with that in mind, the way in which we're going

[13:40] to proceed is staff will first make presentation

[13:45] explaining what's in the Ordinance and,

[13:49] and going over things.

[13:51] After that, the members

[13:52] of the planning commission will have the opportunity to make

[13:57] either ask questions or make comments.

[14:00] And third,

[14:01] then the public will be afforded the same opportunity

[14:06] of raising questions or making comments.

[14:12] So I guess I'll turn to Kim at this point.

[14:15] And I, I would hope that as part of the explanation

[14:20] for each person who has had the opportunity

[14:23] to see the initial draft,

[14:25] and now we've been handed a revised one,

[14:28] and I understand it's not significant,

[14:30] but if you will, some either you

[14:32] or Myas will point out the differences between

[14:35] what had been clearly previously

[14:37] and what has been it tonight.

[14:40] Yes. Thank you. Thank you. You

[14:42] - Thank you, chair.

[14:43] I am happy to present our draft by way of introduction.

[14:48] On April four 13th, part of ongoing discussion

[14:52] with the public, the commission voted

[14:54] to officially ask the board of Supervisors to direct us

[14:58] to look at this a little bit closer.

[15:00] On May 5th, the board

[15:01] of Supervisors heard her C concern brought us back

[15:04] to the planning commission June 24th.

[15:07] We had additional discussion at the planning mission level.

[15:10] Since that time, staff staff essentially collected

[15:13] as much information in this ever changing

[15:15] environment as we could.

[15:16] We've also participated in some of the regional discussions.

[15:20] We've looked at a number of ordinances, we've talked

[15:23] to those that come and talked with us.

[15:25] We've had some email exchanges.

[15:28] And then ultimately when we wrote this, we went back

[15:31] to our existing codes.

[15:32] And that's one thing I wanted to explain,

[15:35] what's divided in front of you?

[15:38] Oh, say that a little bit better with the way,

[15:41] not what's divided in front of you.

[15:42] The way that the draft Ordinance is divided

[15:46] is essentially in three sections.

[15:48] The first section was focused on conditional use itself.

[15:53] The second section is focused on what's called

[15:58] supplemental regulation.

[16:00] The difference is on conditional use.

[16:03] These are items that merit community discussion,

[16:06] community input into what can go focuses on the use itself.

[16:11] And that's what would come before this body.

[16:16] And then also get approved by the board of Supervisors.

[16:19] Again, focus on the use.

[16:20] That's what condit the conditional use part is.

[16:23] The supplemental regulations are items that need

[16:26] to be followed regardless.

[16:29] You don't really wanna put those in front of a vote

[16:31] because they're things like provide an environmental study,

[16:34] like there are more engineering type items

[16:36] where they have to be met.

[16:38] And the way this is organized, it's not unlike a lot

[16:41] of conditional uses.

[16:42] We see the conditional use is tied to the submittal

[16:46] of the land development plan.

[16:48] Every property, every development has

[16:50] a land development plan.

[16:52] The supplemental like regulations are things

[16:53] that you see along with the the land development plan.

[16:57] So just to kind of recap

[16:58] and be clear, the first part

[17:00] of the Ordinance is focused on the public input part.

[17:04] The second part is focused on things

[17:07] that are still gonna be required,

[17:09] but they're specific to data centers.

[17:12] The third part of the Ordinance are things that apply

[17:15] across the board where, so we went into the,

[17:19] the Township Ordinance and updated it

[17:22] because it wasn't specific to data centers,

[17:24] but maybe it was proper, it was prompted by this discussion.

[17:29] So kind of keep that in mind as a way to stay organized.

[17:32] As we have this conversation in general,

[17:35] you'll still see the same type of format that we've

[17:39] been discussing all along, where we focus on

[17:41] what are the different types of data centers.

[17:43] We've tweaked our definitions partly

[17:46] to match the regional conversation.

[17:47] Partly to simplify, we basically have small, medium

[17:51] hyperscale large, just a discussion in terms

[17:54] of what's different for what's in front of you.

[17:57] For the most part it's formatting

[18:00] and just a few little language clarified.

[18:04] However, on page should be on page six for everybody.

[18:09] And that is in

[18:11] section one.

[18:17] It's not hugely different.

[18:20] What we had before was with the conditional use,

[18:24] we required a number of submittals with the conditional use

[18:28] that were related to the land development plan.

[18:32] So the landscaping

[18:35] and environmental analysis, elevations

[18:39] and site plans, those are all things that really belong,

[18:43] that they're better suited in supplemental regulations.

[18:47] So what we did was we kind of met it halfway

[18:50] and instead we put language as

[18:53] a preliminary sketch of landscaping plan,

[18:57] generally indicating how the proposed developmental needs.

[19:01] And it refers to the chapter, again,

[19:03] this language will be tweaked.

[19:04] This is a continuing conversation,

[19:06] but I just want everyone know I'm not,

[19:08] I wanna fast on this is this is what the change is.

[19:12] And then I, instead of saying submit environmental,

[19:16] environmental and community impact.

[19:18] So first of all, there's not really standards in our code

[19:20] yet for what that means.

[19:22] So it, I changed it to a preliminary analysis

[19:25] and general statement of anticipated environmental

[19:28] and community impact.

[19:29] And then I added, but substantive enough

[19:33] to facilitate meaningful discussion

[19:34] of the proposed conditional use.

[19:37] So meeting that we're sure we're asking for these things.

[19:39] Same with the site or the elevations,

[19:41] understanding it's at the sketch level when

[19:44] it's for conditional use.

[19:45] So it's enough to facilitate conversation here, enough

[19:50] to determine if it's valid for a conditional use.

[19:54] But then with the understanding

[19:55] and the paragraph underneath it that when

[19:59] say it does get approved, then when they come back

[20:01] with the required land development plan,

[20:04] those things will be submitted in their full

[20:07] entirety that meets the code.

[20:09] The landscaping again.

[20:11] And we'll further define this process, what we mean

[20:14] by this environmental and community impact analysis.

[20:18] And then again, more specific elevations and site plans.

[20:23] And that's actually a clarification I'd like to go back

[20:26] and do with other parts of the code

[20:28] or other conditional uses

[20:30] because you're asking someone to do full engineering

[20:32] before they even know if the use is gonna be allowed.

[20:35] So that, that's the big, not that big if you think about it.

[20:39] But it is, it's impactful for the process.

[20:42] So that was the change then to say

[20:45] that a little slightly more precisely to save time,

[20:48] because staff has a beautiful PowerPoint presentation

[20:51] and in particular they're gonna focus on lighting noise.

[20:55] And you will see that we're hitting say, lighting, noise,

[21:00] def definitions, screening, construction,

[21:05] even the decommissioning.

[21:07] And with that, I'm going to turn this over to Steph.

[21:15] - Thank you very much, Kim.

[21:16] So a quick refresher for those who may not be familiar

[21:20] with the conditional use process, a conditional use is

[21:24] what is set aside for a use that is a permissible

[21:27] and legitimate use within a Zoning district.

[21:29] Something that is allowed

[21:32] but does require closer examination from

[21:34] the board of Supervisors.

[21:37] The use must meet express standards

[21:39] and criteria set forth in the Zoning Ordinance

[21:42] and be reviewed in a Public Hearing.

[21:45] Basically just a little bit more review

[21:47] with additional specific conditions.

[21:50] The way that we have organized, as Kim went

[21:55] into in a little detail there,

[21:57] we have three general updates in this draft Ordinance.

[22:01] We have the conditions,

[22:02] we have the supplemental regulations,

[22:04] and we have the Township wide regulations.

[22:08] As said a minute ago, the conditions are going to be things

[22:11] that are data center specific as well as project specific.

[22:14] They are going to be the main things discussed in a Public

[22:17] Hearing and the things that are going to change from project

[22:22] to project, the supplemental regulations,

[22:24] these are also data center specific,

[22:26] but they are much more performance based.

[22:28] They're much more engineering focused.

[22:30] They're not project specific.

[22:32] The reason they're separated is basically every project's

[22:34] going to have to meet these.

[22:36] We also have the Township wide regulations, which are going

[22:39] to be the things that as we were reviewing the concerns

[22:42] with data centers, we proposed updating

[22:46] throughout the whole Township.

[22:52] - Throughout the, the data center Ordinance draft,

[22:56] we focused on, on specific types

[22:59] of data data centers.

[23:01] In previous discussions, we have demonstrated

[23:04] that there are different types of data centers

[23:07] that require different types of approval.

[23:10] So For this specific Ordinance,

[23:15] we have drafted a, a three,

[23:20] three major scales of data center, which are small

[23:23] or accessory data centers.

[23:25] These are small accessory data centers.

[23:27] We are defining them to be essentially server rooms

[23:32] or a small accessory structure as not,

[23:36] that does not require any,

[23:39] any other accessory structure such as generators

[23:42] or HVAC systems to be installed.

[23:44] So let's say a company wants

[23:46] to install a server room servers in their,

[23:49] in their, in their business.

[23:51] And those servers will not require additional infrastructure

[23:55] other than that's that, that already exists.

[23:57] That supports the, the, the business.

[23:59] Then these are considered small data centers.

[24:03] When a data center to that scale

[24:06] requires additional infrastructure such as generators,

[24:10] HVAC systems or cooling towers, we are going

[24:14] to require the same level of, of, of, of

[24:20] we're gonna, they're gonna have the same level

[24:22] of requirements as a medium scale data centers,

[24:25] which jumps me back with, which takes me to medium

[24:27] to large scale data centers.

[24:29] These are large, medium,

[24:32] and large scale data centers of data centers are in between

[24:35] 5,000 to 999,000 square feet.

[24:40] So these data centers are going to be approved

[24:43] and going to be permitted only within the industrial

[24:46] and the light industrial

[24:47] and IRD district for

[24:51] hyperscale data centers

[24:52] and medium scale data centers

[24:54] through large scale data centers are going to be,

[24:56] are gonna go through the conditional use process,

[24:59] which was already explained by miles.

[25:02] Similarly, hyperscale data centers are going to go

[25:05] through a conditional use hearing.

[25:06] And those we have determined

[25:09] and defined to be any data center that is

[25:12] beyond 100,000 square feet

[25:14] and is on only going to be approved

[25:17] and within the industrial district.

[25:24] So

[25:25] - Before, before you move ahead, Mr.

[25:27] Chair, chair, how, how are, how do you wanna, wanna handle

[25:32] if, if, if there's some questions about what best percent

[25:37] do we deal with that now, now?

[25:39] Or do we deal with that with that at a later, later

[25:42] - Discussion, bill from the chair,

[25:45] obviously I'll accept any suggestions from the board,

[25:48] but my preference would be

[25:49] to let staff make its presentation and then proceed

[25:52] and you have notes and wanna go back to something later.

[25:57] But it, it, I think it will be a more fluid way

[26:02] of pro pro proceeding if staff can make its presentation

[26:07] without, without being interrupted for questions.

[26:10] - Okay. Well then I'll hold my questions.

[26:13] - Thank you Mr. Chair.

[26:16] So more in depth with data center accessory use

[26:20] and hyperscale.

[26:23] As I mentioned, looking at the picture on the left side,

[26:27] a a, a proposal for a data center such

[26:31] as a small server room

[26:33] would not require any conditional use hearing would be a

[26:38] would be treated to be a Zoning permit application

[26:41] that would go straight for staff review.

[26:45] A data center of a medium large

[26:48] to hyperscale would definitely require here a hearing from,

[26:52] from the Township.

[26:53] And it will be, it would go

[26:55] through the conditional use approval

[26:56] and it will require all

[26:58] of the supplemental regulations including Township,

[27:02] Township wide regulations will be applicable to

[27:05] those data centers.

[27:10] In this, in this level, we,

[27:15] in this Ordinance, we drafted ordinances regarding noise.

[27:20] We currently have a noise Ordinance in the Township

[27:23] because a lot of the regulations within data centers have

[27:28] to refer back to the noise Ordinance.

[27:30] We had to make sure that the

[27:32] or the noise Ordinance was to, was to, to,

[27:36] to the level that required a, that would meet the,

[27:41] that would meet the requirements of a data center.

[27:43] So in noise Ordinance, we have included elements such as

[27:50] sound modeling, vibration requirements,

[27:52] and natural sound barriers.

[27:54] For the noise studies specifically, we are requiring

[27:59] that the applicant of a data center prepare

[28:02] and propose a, a present, a pre

[28:05] and post construction noise to establish a baseline for

[28:09] what, what the current noise levels exist in the,

[28:13] in the property and what the projected noise levels will be

[28:17] for when the construction is complete.

[28:19] And the, and the, and the data center starts operating

[28:23] for some modeling it, some modeling will be the process

[28:26] by which the applicant will present it to the Township, a,

[28:30] a, a computer

[28:31] or a, a digital presentation of the, of the noise

[28:37] or how the noise spreads into from the,

[28:40] from the point from the data center and abroad.

[28:42] So we are going to be seeing a visual image of

[28:46] how the noise propagates from the data center

[28:49] to the neighboring properties through this sound modeling.

[28:52] So vibration is also a, a vibration.

[28:56] The vibration Ordinance will have certain level of vibration

[29:00] that the Township will require to

[29:04] for the applicant to meet.

[29:06] And all of those elements, including the, the noise studies

[29:09] and sound modeling and vibration will have

[29:11] to follow the international standard organizations

[29:14] baselines that were established.

[29:16] So that, so in, in that way that we will,

[29:20] those are the standards to which we are going to hold any,

[29:23] any of the applicants.

[29:25] So for sound barriers, we also establish on top of the,

[29:29] on top of setbacks we have established that a any applicant

[29:33] for, for us from medium to hyperscale data center, we have

[29:37] to establish a Setback of at least 1000 feet.

[29:41] And the sound barrier composed of vegetation

[29:45] of a 50 feet in, in width.

[29:52] In the Ordinance that we, that we drafted, we have included

[29:56] and addressed concerns regarding regarding low noise,

[30:01] noise, tunnel noise.

[30:02] And we also have, have prepared, prepared provisions

[30:07] for acoustical analysis require requirement

[30:11] for the current Ordinance as, as it's written,

[30:14] written is not, not, does not not be addressed any,

[30:17] any concerns, concern below low,

[30:19] below frequency tonal noise, noise.

[30:21] So we, we make sure that the new, the draft

[30:24] included elements that would address those things.

[30:28] For, for low frequency noise.

[30:34] For low frequency noise, we have included element.

[30:37] We have incorporated element that would address a way

[30:39] to scale and c wave to scale to make sure that when a,

[30:43] a noise, when a noise produced by a, by a data center

[30:48] is measured through a a scale,

[30:50] the equivalent C scale level should not, should not be,

[30:55] should not be 10 decibel above the, the, the a scale,

[31:02] the a weighted noise measurement.

[31:05] So the, and then we also included Atherton requirement,

[31:09] which is an additional penalty to whether when a tunnel,

[31:13] when a tunnel noise is found to exist in a

[31:16] or is, is found to be emitted by a data center.

[31:20] An additional penalty of five decibel will be applicable to

[31:24] to, to meet the Township Ordinance

[31:27] and all of those to establish a tunnel

[31:31] to establish whether a tunnel noise exists or not.

[31:34] The Ordinance also as as written, is requiring that the,

[31:39] the applicant hire a, a, a,

[31:44] a engineer or a professional specialized in the acoustical

[31:48] engineering to establish whether Atherton noise, atonal

[31:52] noise is being emitted.

[31:54] And once that is determined,

[31:56] then the applicable five decibel penalty is applied.

[32:03] - Thank you p. In terms of the lighting requirements

[32:08] that we have for data centers,

[32:11] we have 'em divided into those four conditions

[32:14] and supplemental regulations.

[32:16] The conditions create an allowance for the vast size

[32:20] and challenges of lighting.

[32:23] The supplemental regulations ha include a

[32:28] correlated color temperature for those

[32:31] who are less familiar.

[32:33] That's the warmth for coolness of the light.

[32:37] On the right side there we have a graphic that shows the

[32:41] 3000 kelvin maximum that we have

[32:46] for outdoor lighting.

[32:48] That maximum comes from dark sky ordinances that

[32:53] make things easier for nocturnal wildlife.

[32:57] It creates less light pollution

[32:58] and it's less disturbing to people living in the area

[33:02] as well as requirements

[33:04] for automatic lighting controls at night.

[33:07] Something that like when people are walking

[33:09] by will activate things will light up as opposed

[33:12] to emitting constant light all the time.

[33:17] In terms of requirements for utilities,

[33:22] there are requirements for written documentation stating

[33:25] that there is sufficient capacity from the public water

[33:27] utility provider, from the public sanitary sewer system,

[33:31] from the electric utility provider

[33:32] and the internet utility provider.

[33:36] This empowers the utility providers

[33:38] to have a clear step in the process

[33:40] to communicate with the applicants.

[33:43] We also make allowances saying that for the data centers,

[33:48] there's no surface water extractions

[33:50] that the water source must be from the public water utility

[33:54] provider and the water must go out

[33:57] through a public sanitary sewer system.

[34:00] This is how we currently have the Ordinance written

[34:03] for all other industrial uses

[34:06] for the wastewater going out.

[34:11] The other requirements

[34:13] that are included in the draft Ordinance are bulk

[34:16] requirements including Setback

[34:18] and height requirements with a $1,000 Setback for any

[34:23] equipment or part of the building

[34:25] to the nearest residential use

[34:29] square foot, I apologize, feet thank you.

[34:35] As well as a 45 foot height limit in terms

[34:39] of waste, there's requirements for any necessary state

[34:44] or federal permits for any hazardous waste as well

[34:46] as the submittal of an electronic waste plan

[34:49] for any electronic waste.

[34:50] There's a requirement to submit a decommissioning plan,

[34:54] including details of site restoration

[34:58] should they achieve the site as well

[35:00] as any waste disposal in that process.

[35:03] There's also a requirement to work

[35:05] with local emergency services to ensure

[35:08] that they have access

[35:09] and have established emergency procedures and with any use.

[35:14] We have also included the parking requirements in chapter

[35:17] 22 Chair.

[35:20] That's all we have to present for now.

[35:22] Please let us know what questions you have.

[35:25] - Okay. Thank you.

[35:28] All three who have made presentations

[35:32] we're, as I indicated

[35:34] before, we're going to start by with the members of the,

[35:37] of the planning commission.

[35:40] I want to make a preliminary comment for members

[35:43] of the planning commission understand this,

[35:45] but so that the public realizes it

[35:48] under current Pennsylvania law

[35:51] prohibiting data center is not as a permitted use,

[35:55] is not an option.

[35:57] We, we need to provide,

[36:00] or I shouldn't say this, it is imperative that,

[36:03] that we provide in our

[36:04] or Ordinance a data

[36:09] as a committee use in some, in some district,

[36:15] if we did not, would be considered exclusionary Zoning as

[36:20] defined by, by our Supreme Court.

[36:22] And that would lead to a terrible

[36:27] situation which would permit,

[36:28] permit the developer the option of,

[36:31] of probably would putting their data center

[36:34] wherever they wanted within the municipality.

[36:38] I think by the preparation of this Ordinance

[36:43] and the presentation of today as the first draft, we have

[36:47] crossed a hurdle

[36:49] and that, in my opinion,

[36:54] from a prior life, in my opinion,

[36:57] we now are protected against a claim of exclusionary Zoning.

[37:03] And so I I think having,

[37:06] this is a very important first step.

[37:09] Have we said that now turn to the members

[37:13] of the planning commission for questions or comments.

[37:17] And I don't have any particular suggestions how to proceed.

[37:21] So it's up to you folks.

[37:25] I, I could could start,

[37:27] we could go down the road.

[37:32] Miles chair, I believe Ms. Holiday has her hand raised.

[37:35] Oh, okay. Then as a Shannon, you're a good person.

[37:39] Just to get us started, go right ahead.

[37:43] - Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[37:47] Thank you very much staff

[37:50] for providing this very thorough study.

[37:55] I think you all did a very good job with gathering

[37:58] and doing the research and gathering the data.

[38:01] That's, that's a sufficient amount of data to present to us

[38:06] as we were going through.

[38:09] While I do understand Mr. Chair, Mr.

[38:13] Chairman, that you know, we can't, you know, due to the law,

[38:18] we can't just exclude things on us.

[38:23] I do have, I do have a few concerns if, if, if, if, if,

[38:27] if I may, I,

[38:33] I, being a Hurricane Katrina survivor

[38:40] have been diagnosed with severe anxiety disorder.

[38:45] Not for the most part.

[38:47] I'm gonna be honest, I was a little offended,

[38:49] especially when they told me about depression.

[38:51] I, I'm pretty happy be person,

[38:53] but regardless of what's going on in my life,

[38:57] but nevertheless, that was what was the diagnosis was

[39:03] in addition, life happened a bit more as I lived out here

[39:07] and I was found myself in a, in a situation

[39:10] where I was very ended, suffered, triple the questions have

[39:15] in the right ear, but this ear is

[39:18] extremely sensitive to sound.

[39:21] And in addition to that, as, as most of you all know, I walk

[39:24] with a cane now because of the,

[39:27] because of being off balance since having my

[39:31] Strock surgery, a major surgery as will

[39:37] and have a titanium plate put in, in sort

[39:43] my, I'm saying of that to say,

[39:45] because this is my build ordinarily

[39:50] if regardless of my tone right, when I'm speaking,

[39:56] there are times

[39:58] and it is episodic when I'm talking with someone

[40:03] and it's based on the acoustics of the building

[40:08] or wherever we are.

[40:09] Sometimes the person, they may be talking low,

[40:13] but their voice bounced off the wall and hit my in the ear

[40:17] and it makes me fool to do like this.

[40:20] And I'm like, and and the more they talk,

[40:22] the boy, the boy hurt.

[40:24] It is like a, it is like a not, it is like a,

[40:27] it's kind really pain, but it's, it is an a, if you will

[40:32] because it's like, it's a, did somebody have a, oh

[40:35] what you call it, what you call that, that you holler

[40:38] through looking thing

[40:42] that you, that you talk to.

[40:44] It is like somebody had one of them.

[40:46] I directly in my hip, even though they're not,

[40:48] they may not be building.

[40:51] This is, this is why I'm saying this.

[40:53] I thought about that when we were go on.

[40:58] And I also thought about people

[41:01] who may be on the spectrum, right?

[41:05] There are vibrations that a person

[41:09] who has a maybe a DA like myself

[41:15] or who may be on the spectrum or a DHD

[41:19] or a DD, just certain things that some people may have

[41:25] an an, an extraordinary sensitivity to

[41:30] that ordinarily we may not have a sensitivity to.

[41:37] And it could, it could cause it could cause steming,

[41:40] whether it's a child or whether it's an adult, right?

[41:45] I'm saying that to say what I think about,

[41:48] even though I understand that there's a noise Ordinance,

[41:53] you know, there's the natural sound area,

[41:55] there's the noise sub, there are vibration requirements

[42:00] and, and so forth.

[42:02] The, I I understand an al analysis,

[42:06] my concern will remain whether

[42:09] or not with all of these things in place,

[42:15] whether or not that might still affect people like Shannon

[42:19] Holiday who's hearing impaired

[42:23] extra sensitive in this ear.

[42:24] And here's the other thing, it is, I don't work hearing aid,

[42:29] but it's a wall of hearing aid, right?

[42:33] People who are hearing aid is even more sensitive

[42:36] to the sound extra hard.

[42:40] Those are sensitive to the sound.

[42:42] But just wonder how might these things affect the group

[42:46] of people who I am taught, who I just mentioned.

[42:50] That is my concern.

[42:52] My concern is, and I know it is false, you know,

[42:56] it may be farfetched, it may not be farfetched,

[42:58] but one factor concerns me

[43:02] because I never just made it about Shannon.

[43:05] I'm always looking out,

[43:06] I'm always making it about the greater good, the, you know,

[43:09] for the good or a beat.

[43:11] And I'm just really concerned.

[43:13] I, I'm wondering whether, what if

[43:16] that have a negative effect on kids, right?

[43:20] Because they feel the vibration, those

[43:23] who may be on the spectrum

[43:24] or those who may have some sort of hyper diagnosed, hyper

[43:30] sensitivity in some way,

[43:32] or somebody like me who's here in repair,

[43:35] but has an extraordinary sensitivity in my right ear,

[43:39] which doesn't, I mean my left ear,

[43:40] which doesn't require hearing date, right?

[43:44] So I just wonder about all of these things

[43:47] and if we should experience some

[43:53] disturbance within ourselves, people

[43:56] who are on the spectrum stem as, as a result

[43:59] of the data center, depending on, on the size of

[44:03] the vibrations over have you,

[44:05] or with the light, you with the controls on light.

[44:08] I'm wondering whether

[44:10] or not the other would be some sort of

[44:15] exception that could appease.

[44:19] But if we don't have a, I know we, we gotta have one,

[44:24] but if we don't have data, none of that to worry about,

[44:28] but we don't know.

[44:30] And so my concern is that what if what works in

[44:35] for people, would there be an exception

[44:37] or an adjustment of her exception

[44:39] or an adjustment made despite the things that

[44:43] that was laid out to today?

[44:45] That's not my concern. That, that's my question.

[44:49] - Thank you. I don't know if has comments,

[44:54] comments or certain thoughts

[44:57] and comments will be taken into consideration.

[44:59] Thank you. Thank you. Any other, any other members

[45:04] of planning commission?

[45:05] Planning commission have questions or comments? Or comments?

[45:12] - We talked about the hundred square feet. Square feet.

[45:16] My concern is down the line when they get the same,

[45:19] same amount of generation power, smaller area has,

[45:24] has, have we looked at,

[45:25] at what's happening happening 3, 5, 10

[45:28] years down below the line.

[45:31] - The current scale require requirements that we have here,

[45:35] here for impact required require the same

[45:40] condition use process for data center center between

[45:44] 5,000 GFGA to the

[45:49] 9 999 9,000 9 990 99 9.

[45:52] The biggest difference between these two is the district

[45:55] that they are permitted in the IRD versus industrial.

[45:59] But if they can meet the conditional use requirements

[46:04] with future technology, then so the,

[46:07] the only way they would be able

[46:08] to bypass the conditional use process is if they were able

[46:11] to both have a data center

[46:14] that is less than five dozen square feet as well

[46:16] as not have any accessory structures.

[46:19] So that's no generators, that's no water towers

[46:22] and ideally very limited impact on the surrounding area.

[46:27] - But it would be possible in the future

[46:30] for a hyperscale center to go into the IRD

[46:34] if it's a smaller building.

[46:37] - But Mike, I I think that that definition of wood side,

[46:41] it is based on the size as opposed to

[46:46] what its capacity to do.

[46:49] Am I correct? That's correct.

[46:51] So I mean, if you could put into the 20,000 square feet,

[46:55] what today would take a hundred thousand square feet,

[47:00] that would bring it into a, a different category.

[47:04] Even though it has the capacity of

[47:06] what today would be a bigger one. Is that clear?

[47:10] - But we could get the noise

[47:11] and the vibration in that smaller building then

[47:15] that's now at a hundred thousand square fair.

[47:20] - The noise and vibration are

[47:23] the noise vibration studies are all required for, for all

[47:27] of the, the data centers starting from

[47:31] 5,000 square feet.

[47:32] So they will all go

[47:34] and be treated the same way

[47:35] as if there were large scale data centers.

[47:38] In that, in that, in that regard,

[47:40] the only difference is which district there are

[47:43] permitted to be in.

[47:47] - And I, the other thing is my old age, I got very cynical.

[47:52] The person who's doing it notes here,

[47:57] who does the sound modeling

[47:59] and the sound, my, my cynicism is if the company,

[48:05] the applicant is hiring the person,

[48:08] they may get the answer that they want.

[48:10] So my concern is

[48:12] that we don't say it's an independent person

[48:14] or someone agreeable to the Township.

[48:18] - I understand the concern, the Pennsylvania

[48:23] Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, when,

[48:27] when they approved an engineer to do a study, we hold

[48:31] that engineer specifically whether a firm hired

[48:34] by the applicant or by anybody.

[48:37] The engineer's license is on the line to show, to be,

[48:42] to be compliant, to be ethical and,

[48:45] and show accurate results.

[48:47] Because if an engineer is, is hired to do a a job,

[48:51] they're not going, they know

[48:53] that their license is on the line.

[48:54] Right? They're not going

[48:56] to be appeasing anybody in, in any regard.

[49:00] Additionally, there are, we put in place

[49:05] provisions in the Ordinance for the Township to,

[49:08] to have the right to hire a third party in case

[49:14] for any reason that the board and the planning commission or

[49:19] or residents may find necessary to hire third party in,

[49:24] in any study that that, that that has been done.

[49:27] - Okay, great.

[49:34] - I have a question about the slide that's up now.

[49:37] Actually, there was a note on page four of the memo

[49:41] underneath this graphic that said it needs to be considered

[49:45] that the IRD district is intended for compatibility

[49:48] with office and surrounding residential and is

[49:50] therefore not suitable for large scale higher

[49:53] impact data centers.

[49:55] And that we have IRD for large scale data centers.

[49:59] So it just was curious if you could explain the rationale

[50:02] behind leaving large scale data centers as part of the IRD

[50:07] - Kim - Probably should have said hyperscale.

[50:10] Hyperscale to differentiate. Differentiate.

[50:15] Thank you for pointing that out. Pointing

[50:16] - That out.

[50:17] - Thank you. So that, that was that typo.

[50:19] That typo, correct.

[50:23] - Okay. Thank you. - Okay.

[50:31] Any questions over to my web? To my web?

[50:34] - Yeah, I've got a I've got your question

[50:37] and I don't know who to ask really, but,

[50:39] but the, the water data uses isn't,

[50:44] isn't, it isn't changed.

[50:48] Use, use cooling is my understand. Right? Right.

[50:50] So it shouldn't, shouldn't have to go go through

[50:54] to UAA towards to a treatment plant.

[50:58] Is there anything that would

[51:01] prevent them from injecting that?

[51:05] It it is un it's unchanged water.

[51:08] It's what comes outta the ground.

[51:09] It's used to cool the equipment.

[51:11] Could they inject that back into the ground?

[51:15] And I mean, you know, the, the,

[51:17] the region has talked about doing that with,

[51:19] with our wastewater.

[51:22] Is there anything in the Centre Region

[51:25] that would prevent them from injecting that back in a,

[51:29] in a well in an injection?

[51:31] Well,

[51:33] - I'd like the opportunity to speak

[51:35] with the Township engineer on the specifics of that.

[51:38] However, this is in line with the,

[51:43] with the state recommendation on handling wastewater as well

[51:47] as the, from data centers as well as the Chester County

[51:51] and Allegheny County sample data centers.

[51:55] But I would be, I'll absolutely dig into the

[52:00] specifics of what the water coming

[52:01] out of the data center looks like.

[52:03] - Yeah, because you know, UAA,

[52:05] I mean the center region's problem isn't

[52:08] that we don't have enough water.

[52:10] It's the discharge of the water because, and,

[52:14] and it's not even that we can't treat it.

[52:16] The problem is that when it leaves UAJ, it's too warm

[52:20] to put into Spring Creek,

[52:21] which is a high quality trout stream.

[52:24] And so that's, that's really our,

[52:26] our limit in the Centre Region is how do we dispose

[52:30] of the water that that comes outta UAJA

[52:33] and the, the boroughs treatment plant.

[52:38] It, I I just struck me, it's like

[52:40] they don't really change this water.

[52:42] They don't, they use it for cooling

[52:45] and then why couldn't they put it right back in the ground?

[52:49] No, no. Net loss

[52:50] of water, Ralph.

[52:54] One of the things that I've heard in terms of this,

[52:59] the, the water needs

[53:01] and cooling is that in some cases

[53:06] they're looking at the water cooling process

[53:11] as having direct contact with some of the hardware.

[53:16] And the issue of picking up chemicals in

[53:20] that process there is, there's actually some, some

[53:25] sites where they're talking about having

[53:30] in the near future, the actual hardware

[53:35] boards be able to be submersible so

[53:39] that the water that the,

[53:41] the cooling happens right within the machine as opposed to

[53:46] having to go to air conditioning as you know,

[53:50] or water in some way.

[53:53] So it appears to me that the technology,

[53:57] which is like changing yesterday,

[54:01] has already thought about this whole business of

[54:04] what to do with water.

[54:07] And they're coming up with, with

[54:11] solutions in terms of cooling that involve the water,

[54:16] actually having some contact.

[54:19] I don't know what, I'm not a scientist

[54:22] with the actual hardware

[54:25] and in that case, picking up some of the chemical residue.

[54:30] That is why, you know, one of the things that

[54:33] has come up lately lately,

[54:42] - Lisa, - Just, just, I just had just have a couple

[54:45] questions I guess, I guess before we get into that today,

[54:47] I'll start, I'll start with with water.

[54:49] Water maybe, maybe 'cause we're just talking about about,

[54:54] so there weren't like absolute metrics

[54:59] and the water, water piece like a, a proposed water

[55:02] or electric electricity consumption.

[55:05] So is that that something that could be part

[55:09] of the conditions?

[55:13] - The closest example that I saw for

[55:16] that was requirements for

[55:21] changing topics slightly electric utility

[55:24] of if they consume a certain amount of power,

[55:27] then there are these additional requirements that

[55:30] a certain amount of it might be solar.

[55:32] But in terms of putting hard caps,

[55:40] I think we're very limited in

[55:44] what we can impose

[55:46] - And I Right.

[55:47] And I wouldn't say that, you know, the board would be in a,

[55:51] a place to impose caps on that.

[55:53] But I guess, you know, with the noise

[55:59] it was suggested to have a third party come in, you know,

[56:02] and, and maybe there's something else mentioned somewhere

[56:05] about an environmental impact study.

[56:07] Kind of like we do a traffic study,

[56:08] you have a third party consultant do that.

[56:11] So I'm just curious if that could be part

[56:13] of the condition is having a third party

[56:17] and this goes I see.

[56:19] Can, but I think the difference here is we're deferring

[56:22] to the utility

[56:23] - Itself, whereas if the noise, there's no noise utility.

[56:28] So that's where we're requiring a, a professional study.

[56:32] Whereas here the water company's okay letting their

[56:36] expertise take care of it.

[56:37] Power company's okay. Electric company with their expertise

[56:42] - Think - That's how we're proposing it at the

[56:44] moment. That's why we're talking.

[56:45] - Right? Yeah. And it is just a question, you know,

[56:47] that I was thinking because I was thinking that it's a,

[56:50] it's in a position, you know, it's a burden on the utilities

[56:54] to, to imagine what the usage will be

[56:58] and say yes.

[57:00] 'cause in the language in here it says it won't impact

[57:02] current use or future needs.

[57:04] It seems, it just seems so broad

[57:06] and so I yeah, sorry, part

[57:10] - Remember that's taken from, to obtain a Zoning permit,

[57:13] you have to have so many certificates

[57:16] or letters of approval from other outside entities.

[57:20] So we were kind of thinking along the, we actually toyed

[57:22] with what section you can put that in

[57:25] if anyone wants to explain that further.

[57:27] But that, that was kind of the idea that things are,

[57:29] that are really beyond the Township purview, pushing those

[57:33] to those that sort of own the problem.

[57:37] - Yeah, I would just throw it out as maybe something to,

[57:42] you know, for when this gets to the board for the board,

[57:44] consider okay, having in there, there,

[57:47] because then that was another question on page six that had

[57:52] this, I was looking at the language from mining and querying

[57:55] because it in my mind is kind of a little symmetrical.

[57:59] So in these conditions it says must provide,

[58:03] this is on page six in in section one, number four,

[58:06] it must provide proof

[58:08] and compliance that in summary the data center won't

[58:13] endanger the public health

[58:14] and safety if located were proposed.

[58:19] And so I was wondering what that would look like

[58:22] because in the mining inquiry it just says if the board

[58:25] determines, so it just might be

[58:30] something to consider moving forward with

[58:33] that language if you're like,

[58:43] and then just on the Zoning district's,

[58:49] I'm cons, I would have concerns about the large

[58:55] scale data center being in the IRE.

[58:59] So I think when we were talking about it,

[59:02] it was all industrial.

[59:03] And I understand the industrial zone is very small,

[59:07] but to have a large scale, I'm, I would have

[59:12] concerns like why not make in my mind why not have small

[59:16] and medium in IRD

[59:20] and large scale

[59:22] - 5,000 to almost a hundred thousand is too big of a

[59:25] - Range.

[59:26] Yeah. When it is, you know, in our case we have

[59:30] so many neighborhoods surrounding our IRD districts,

[59:35] so we just, so it's something to, you know,

[59:39] because we're crafting this now, so we have the ability

[59:42] to do things for every month so that, you know,

[59:46] if we wanna say small in IRB, medium,

[59:48] large hyperscale in industrial

[59:51] would've been the way I would've started.

[59:53] You start there.

[59:57] - I think we were there and we condense but go back because

[1:00:01] - I think you're right.

[1:00:02] Yeah, that's, I mean it's, it is difficult

[1:00:04] because of the way our Zoning Ordinance has the, the bulk

[1:00:08] and area categories.

[1:00:10] And so I assume this would be maybe even using a new one

[1:00:14] of those categories.

[1:00:18] So, but that gives a lot of flexibility as to

[1:00:21] what you're putting in there.

[1:00:23] So

[1:00:28] - May I jump in and just ask a question

[1:00:29] based on what you said?

[1:00:31] We don't really de define medium and large, do we?

[1:00:36] We we've defined small and we've defined hyperscale,

[1:00:41] but medium to large is

[1:00:44] between 5,090 9,000.

[1:00:48] So which goes to what Lisa's question is,

[1:00:53] if we def, and I'm just pulling number out,

[1:00:56] but if we define medium has five to 30,000

[1:01:00] or whatever it was, and large from 30 to 99 9,

[1:01:05] it just seems that there's ambiguity there

[1:01:09] and we're not, by not making that distinction,

[1:01:14] we don't really make the,

[1:01:16] before that, that opportunity of distinguishing between

[1:01:21] something between small and large.

[1:01:27] - The PowerPoint doesn't show it because we're,

[1:01:30] because of the purpose of industrial,

[1:01:32] because of where we, where we are proposing

[1:01:36] of the medium enlarged to be permitted conditional use.

[1:01:40] However, the Ordinance itself defines

[1:01:44] and separates a medium to large scale data center

[1:01:48] from the definition, the medium data center is anything

[1:01:52] between 5,000 and 20,000 square feet.

[1:01:56] And a large scale data center starts to be

[1:01:59] 20000.1 2001

[1:02:04] to 100 to 99,999.

[1:02:09] - And for those, looking at the draft Ordinance,

[1:02:12] that is on page 13 at the bottom,

[1:02:16] - So are, and I don't want to put any words in Gmail,

[1:02:20] but I, since we now know that

[1:02:25] if one wanted to, one could pose small

[1:02:29] and medium in or or medium

[1:02:33] because apparently small can all districts were accessory,

[1:02:37] which is interesting.

[1:02:39] But if you had medium in, in an IRD and large

[1:02:44] and hyperscale is what you're saying, press

[1:02:47] - Industrial - In industrial.

[1:02:53] - Well, I, I mean I ask where those numbers came from.

[1:02:56] Are are they relative to anything or did,

[1:02:59] or did we just pull outta the

[1:03:01] - Here?

[1:03:02] So these numbers there, there's no specific as, as Ralph

[1:03:06] and everything, and Bill has mentioned

[1:03:09] before, the industry is constantly changing.

[1:03:13] What today, what what is

[1:03:15] considered a hyper skilled data center today may not be

[1:03:18] what's considered tomorrow

[1:03:19] or what was considered two months ago.

[1:03:22] So this is the opportunity.

[1:03:24] These numbers were, yes,

[1:03:27] they were established based on the medium of

[1:03:29] what we've seen in, in throughout the ordinances

[1:03:32] that we've read, the articles that we've read.

[1:03:35] But it also presents an opportunity for us as a Township

[1:03:39] to determine what are we, what size do we want

[1:03:42] to be considered large or medium scale.

[1:03:45] If we decide that anything that is in this range has to go

[1:03:50] to this district because we consider that to be large, then

[1:03:53] that's what we are going to put in the Ordinance.

[1:03:55] And that decision is gonna come here with the,

[1:03:58] with the commissions and with the, with the public.

[1:04:00] And we are gonna receive all the input.

[1:04:03] And as a reminder, this Ordinance is a draft, so

[1:04:08] is going to be subject to changes.

[1:04:10] And the reason why we provided this is

[1:04:12] because staff went, staff thought researched

[1:04:17] and this is what we were able to find.

[1:04:19] Now we are looking for input from everybody to be able

[1:04:23] to contribute and to improve

[1:04:24] and to make these ordinances know better, I guess

[1:04:28] for, for the Township.

[1:04:29] So this is, this is,

[1:04:31] this is basically the purpose of this meeting.

[1:04:38] - Okay. Bill,

[1:04:41] - I appreciate this last discussion

[1:04:44] because I was clearly confused as I read

[1:04:48] through some of the documents, like on page five

[1:04:53] it specifically talks about,

[1:04:56] - Are you talking five of well, five of the order of five,

[1:05:01] - No, well, we've got two page five.

[1:05:08] We have to, anyway, I think we need to clarify.

[1:05:17] We received two charts

[1:05:23] and, and they did not differentiate

[1:05:27] between medium and large.

[1:05:30] But then when we go into the document itself,

[1:05:34] we find there is a, a determination medium up

[1:05:38] to 20,000 square feet that made it confusing.

[1:05:44] Okay. Because on the, on one part

[1:05:47] of the documentation you gave us,

[1:05:49] there's no definition difference.

[1:05:51] It's five to 99,000

[1:05:56] and that's much too broad for what we're dealing with.

[1:06:01] But then later on there's a reference to 20,000.

[1:06:05] So I think we need to, you know,

[1:06:09] - Yeah, for clarification for communication as we,

[1:06:13] when we start to get Public Comment, go

[1:06:15] by the Ordinance draft, the memo is meant to just be a,

[1:06:19] like a table of content.

[1:06:20] Got it. Because it is too much.

[1:06:23] - And I go by the Ordinance, I understand that,

[1:06:25] but it needs to be consistent.

[1:06:27] Yes. And you know, because that becomes a public document.

[1:06:32] Yes. And and that's what I, that's part

[1:06:34] of what I was looking for.

[1:06:35] Thank you. In the Ordinance,

[1:06:39] are we not permitting the applicant

[1:06:44] for the medium, large and

[1:06:48] or hyperscale to produce their own energy

[1:06:52] to produce their own power?

[1:06:54] I I, by the, by the wording, are we requiring

[1:06:59] that the applicant must use the grid

[1:07:03] and not provide their own power?

[1:07:07] - We include generators as part

[1:07:11] of the accessory used things that may be included in terms

[1:07:16] of electrical consumption.

[1:07:21] On page 10 to 11,

[1:07:24] we require written confirmation from the

[1:07:26] electrical utility provider.

[1:07:29] But do not, we don't explicitly say that,

[1:07:33] we don't explicitly say that you

[1:07:37] must get it from the electric utility provider, but

[1:07:39] - There is a, and that's exactly, that's exactly the section

[1:07:41] that I'm referring to because we, we,

[1:07:43] we say they must get certification from the electric

[1:07:47] provider end of of statement.

[1:07:53] I can't, I can't tell you Kim, you're pointing at something.

[1:07:57] - Yeah, top of page 11

[1:07:59] where we do say get confirmation from the electric utility

[1:08:02] provider, but then B alternative

[1:08:05] or off grid energy generation, including solar, wind,

[1:08:08] fossil fuel, or nuclear energy generating systems shall be

[1:08:14] considered separate

[1:08:16] and are subject to Township state federal requirements.

[1:08:19] Right. Trying to put some catchalls,

[1:08:21] but yeah, I hear what you're saying. So

[1:08:25] - I I'm just saying that, you know, we need

[1:08:26] to get a little consistency with some of that, some of

[1:08:29] that wording because the implication in the first part

[1:08:33] saying that, you know, they, they have

[1:08:35] to have permission from the power supplier

[1:08:38] and don't say anything else.

[1:08:39] I think we've got a reference at that point that,

[1:08:43] that the option of of providing their own is there,

[1:08:52] It was brought up about the, the consultants

[1:08:57] or the engineers to do the approvals of, for example,

[1:09:02] sound and vibration and all of those things.

[1:09:06] And you know, typically we have

[1:09:11] the consultant, we have the applicant

[1:09:16] provide that technical expertise

[1:09:19] by hiring their own engineers to do that.

[1:09:22] However, I think Mr.

[1:09:24] Rads has brought up a good point

[1:09:27] and I recognize that the engineer,

[1:09:31] whomever hires him, puts his license on the line.

[1:09:35] But could we have some wording in there that says, that says

[1:09:41] the applicant

[1:09:43] and the Township shall agree upon

[1:09:47] an appropriate firm to provide that analysis.

[1:09:51] Can we say that just as kind

[1:09:56] be, because the alternative is if

[1:10:01] they hire somebody

[1:10:03] and then some question comes of their results,

[1:10:08] then we hire somebody

[1:10:13] at our expense

[1:10:17] and at very large hourly wage

[1:10:21] to look at the data and review it.

[1:10:24] I would rather have some input upfront

[1:10:29] that, that we've, we've vetted the firm as well.

[1:10:35] And so just, just a thought there,

[1:10:43] going back to the issue of square footage

[1:10:47] for our definitions

[1:10:50] of the different sizes, miles,

[1:10:54] in any of your research, did you find any other source

[1:11:00] that defined them by any other metric other than square foot

[1:11:07] in, would you like to take this one?

[1:11:10] Yeah.

[1:11:14] - Definitions of data centers across the board have

[1:11:18] different metrics that they use to say this is a data center

[1:11:23] or this is a medium large or, or hyperscale.

[1:11:27] If you recall in our first meeting we had a table

[1:11:32] indicating even a co-location as a type of data center,

[1:11:36] a AI data centers.

[1:11:40] All, all of those elements, including co-location,

[1:11:43] AI data centers are not in, when it comes to Zoning,

[1:11:48] they don't have any, any, any reference

[1:11:51] to which we can like put it in a, in a,

[1:11:55] in a place co-location data center is a type of data center

[1:12:00] that is used by different

[1:12:03] companies in one specific building.

[1:12:04] So if you look, if you go to Google

[1:12:07] and search types of data centers, you will find one of those

[1:12:10] to be co-location.

[1:12:11] Some of them AI data centers

[1:12:13] or even campus data centers, they use different metrics that

[1:12:18] in terms of Zoning are completely irrelevant and we, and,

[1:12:22] and, and will not be enforceable in terms of Zoning,

[1:12:26] which is why we found different sources that

[1:12:30] even though they didn't go in depth into the type

[1:12:33] of data center to be like co-location, they had elements

[1:12:36] that could be defensible in terms of Zoning.

[1:12:39] And those elements are scale, like the area that they,

[1:12:43] that they occupy

[1:12:45] or the, the, depending on the type

[1:12:48] of the size is sometimes also correlated to the,

[1:12:51] to the energy consumption.

[1:12:53] So that was also a different element that we,

[1:12:55] that we grabbed and we, we, we were able

[1:12:58] to tie into the type of data center depending on,

[1:13:02] on the size and, and, and energy usage.

[1:13:05] Those two elements really are the only ones

[1:13:08] that we could find that would determine

[1:13:10] or define the tip a scale

[1:13:12] of data center other than co-location

[1:13:15] or the type of infrastructure

[1:13:17] or how many, how many servers it has

[1:13:20] or what type of switch it uses.

[1:13:24] This is, these elements are not defensible,

[1:13:27] are not enforceable

[1:13:28] and would not make much sense

[1:13:30] to include in a Zoning Ordinance.

[1:13:34] - Good. I mean, thank you for, for, for that response.

[1:13:38] In terms of, of looking at it, I am concerned about one

[1:13:42] of the things that Mike mentioned in terms of,

[1:13:45] because the science is moving so fast

[1:13:49] with this whole concept, I'd like

[1:13:53] to see two things.

[1:13:55] One is I'd like to see some metric

[1:13:59] that addresses the fact that today

[1:14:04] they can pro they can provide 10 million of something

[1:14:09] of a product with the, with the space they have,

[1:14:15] but five years from today that same space

[1:14:20] can then provide double that amount.

[1:14:23] And does that have any impact on, on what we wanna do?

[1:14:28] Maybe if, if there were something that, that, that could

[1:14:33] comment in our Ordinance with regard

[1:14:37] to the change in the science and,

[1:14:41] and I mean we're, we're in, we're in

[1:14:45] pristine territory here.

[1:14:48] This, this is stuff that hasn't been typically

[1:14:52] arrived at in Zoning and Zoning ordinances.

[1:14:57] And, and I am concerned about

[1:15:01] how fast the science is moving

[1:15:04] and that, that we can't be, I'd rather not be in a position

[1:15:09] to have to recall our Ordinance

[1:15:13] every 12 months to update something in or other in it.

[1:15:18] If we can avoid that, it may be that the science is moving

[1:15:22] so fast that we can't avoid it.

[1:15:27] - Is it possible to put something about

[1:15:30] the size is being reviewed every five years

[1:15:33] or something for Yeah, I don't know if that's legal or not,

[1:15:37] - You know.

[1:15:38] Well, there's nothing that,

[1:15:38] there's nothing that prevents it.

[1:15:40] And I guess if in response to this though, we're speaking

[1:15:45] of a Zoning Ordinance as opposed to

[1:15:51] what's, what's happening within that structure,

[1:15:55] which isn't really, at this point,

[1:15:58] in my mind, isn't a Zoning.

[1:16:00] So if it could produce, I don't know anything. Right.

[1:16:04] But I mean, if, if it can double its capacity,

[1:16:09] but it's, it's still in the, when it's not doing anything

[1:16:14] structurally, I don't see that as a Zoning issue

[1:16:19] as long as it's still meeting all of the, all

[1:16:21] of the other requirements, the, the sound

[1:16:24] electric, whatever, everything else.

[1:16:26] So I, I don't see how

[1:16:31] the advancement of technology

[1:16:35] necessarily affects the Zoning.

[1:16:41] - But, And, and I, I understand that Louis,

[1:16:43] because we've been doing this kind of stuff for a long time

[1:16:46] and you've been in it, in the weeds in your previous life.

[1:16:52] But that doesn't mean to say that we can't start

[1:16:56] to look at some of this stuff

[1:16:58] because in my mind we are,

[1:17:02] we are in a space with these AI centers that

[1:17:08] we've never really, the, the science is becoming part

[1:17:11] of the issue in the discussion

[1:17:14] and not just the square feet.

[1:17:18] It is impacting a much larger environment

[1:17:22] than we typically have had to deal with

[1:17:34] on page 10

[1:17:37] of the hor.

[1:17:47] Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking at the old one.

[1:17:52] I don't know where it is in the new, it talks about

[1:17:56] no water utilized by the facility shall be discharged,

[1:18:00] released, or otherwise exported from site, except

[1:18:03] through a connection to a public sanatory sewer system.

[1:18:06] And, and, and Ralph brought that up,

[1:18:11] I asked the question because it occurs in other industrial

[1:18:15] environments where they truck their water

[1:18:20] to some disposable site.

[1:18:22] In other words, they don't use the public system.

[1:18:27] They, their water is contaminated.

[1:18:29] Their fluid is com contaminated

[1:18:32] and it can't go into the local sewer system for treatment

[1:18:37] because it is far more advanced than

[1:18:39] what the system can handle.

[1:18:41] So they truck it to a appropriate site.

[1:18:46] So it would be my thought that, that we might want to,

[1:18:51] to allow for that

[1:18:54] or not allow for it, one or the other.

[1:18:57] But clearly there are examples now

[1:19:02] where sites are trucking their treatment water

[1:19:08] to other places for appropriate treatment.

[1:19:12] So we might want to address

[1:19:13] that in a little different way in that particular section

[1:19:25] under our electricity consumption.

[1:19:28] There's been an awful lot, lot of talk statewide wide,

[1:19:32] and I don't know what, what the status is of this is,

[1:19:36] but the governor, governor in assets in terms of,

[1:19:39] of impact on local fees, local

[1:19:44] electrical fees, and like I said, I don't know

[1:19:48] what the status is,

[1:19:49] but the governor has alluded to the fact that

[1:19:55] the impact of the center

[1:19:59] cannot impact local

[1:20:04] fee increases.

[1:20:07] And we don't say anything about that.

[1:20:11] And, and I'm wondering whether we want to have that within

[1:20:16] the, the Ordinance.

[1:20:19] - Well, I agree with you on that.

[1:20:21] That is part of the condition of the, whether water

[1:20:25] or electrical consumption, that it not only be that it,

[1:20:30] there is the capacity that it,

[1:20:32] but it would not impact upon the rate of,

[1:20:37] of all other consumers of that, that utility.

[1:20:42] I, I think that is important as for it to be considered.

[1:20:48] I I've had that note also.

[1:20:52] And I, I guess question I have in terms

[1:20:57] of that, and this may be, so

[1:21:01] in the weeds we say that if,

[1:21:06] if it is desired to have an alternative

[1:21:09] or off grid energy generation that's

[1:21:13] considered a separate use, would

[1:21:15] that be considered an accessory use?

[1:21:19] It would have to be an accessory use

[1:21:21] because it can't be another primary use.

[1:21:27] So, so I think that's, it should,

[1:21:32] so I think it might be appropriate

[1:21:34] to consider whether we would want

[1:21:36] to say it shall be considered as a

[1:21:42] separate access or simply as an accessory use

[1:21:45] and subject to Township, state and federal requirements.

[1:21:49] But, but I also feel that there's a need to be concern.

[1:21:53] And, and I think Bill, in with regard to that, if the

[1:21:59] developer were providing alternative off grid energy

[1:22:02] generation, that would make it simple for the utility to say

[1:22:07] that there is sufficient capacity.

[1:22:10] 'cause it's not gonna, it, it would be zero additional

[1:22:13] or whatever capacity it is.

[1:22:15] But if, if so I think, you know, still getting

[1:22:19] that approval, it makes it easy.

[1:22:21] And I, last point, I have in response to questions,

[1:22:25] this concept of engineer,

[1:22:27] and I understand my, your cynicism or skepticism,

[1:22:38] I used to deal a lot with appraisers

[1:22:41] and the higher level

[1:22:45] of appraisal was called MIA

[1:22:48] and there were those thought that meant made

[1:22:51] or MAI made as instructed.

[1:22:56] So, but I don't know how else what we can do about that

[1:22:59] because I, if they say I want, we would a,

[1:23:04] to be our sound engineer, we say we want B, are we going to

[1:23:08] where, where are we?

[1:23:11] But, but, but I think your point is well taken.

[1:23:15] We, I don't know that we have a choice if,

[1:23:17] if they're coming forward with a licensed

[1:23:23] engineer, I think we have to accept that

[1:23:27] and shame on them

[1:23:29] and shame on us if we find that

[1:23:31] that person was not honest with us.

[1:23:36] But I don't know how we, I don't know how we can, I mean,

[1:23:39] I guess we could, but it, it, I I've not seen it.

[1:23:43] I mean, we don't, when an engineer comes in

[1:23:46] with a a site development, we don't, we don't question

[1:23:51] that person's qualifications be, I mean, they're working,

[1:23:55] they're employed by the, the developer

[1:23:58] and they come forward with the plans

[1:24:00] and we're not saying, well,

[1:24:02] are those really legitimate?

[1:24:05] Because he is trying to help his, his client.

[1:24:09] I think we need to accept the,

[1:24:16] the appropriateness of documentation

[1:24:20] that is sealed by a

[1:24:24] or sealed by appropriate people, whether it be

[1:24:29] civil engineers or sound engineers,

[1:24:33] - But sweet bill put it mutually agreed upon.

[1:24:36] - But how do you, what I, that's really saying

[1:24:40] that they would have to agree on ours.

[1:24:43] - Well, there's or vice versa.

[1:24:45] - There's gotta be a, a list of state approved.

[1:24:49] Again, it doesn't matter what

[1:24:52] - Well, well, I think that's right.

[1:24:54] Yeah, they, I, but,

[1:24:56] but state approved is if I'm licensed by the state

[1:25:00] of Pennsylvania to be a civil engineer,

[1:25:07] it, we require that on our plans.

[1:25:11] I mean, I just can't have somebody coming in

[1:25:13] and say, I'm gonna do it.

[1:25:15] And just as I think we would still have the same requirement

[1:25:18] for any, well, any other expert's gonna be licensed

[1:25:23] by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Well,

[1:25:26] - I, I think we, I think we'd have a hard time saying that,

[1:25:30] you know, if somebody comes up with an engineer or,

[1:25:32] or whatever, a service that's gonna do a, you know,

[1:25:36] a traffic study

[1:25:37] or whatever to say we don't, if, if they're licensed,

[1:25:43] we're not gonna say, well, we don't like 'em.

[1:25:47] - But that's what I, that's what, that's what we're saying.

[1:25:50] - But we do, we do, for most of the plans that we get

[1:25:53] that aren't nearly as, as, as technically

[1:25:59] like this particular one, we have an engineer who we pay

[1:26:05] to review whatever that engineer's

[1:26:09] group submits.

[1:26:11] So there is already a Township review.

[1:26:16] The, the level of that review varies depending on

[1:26:20] what is necessary.

[1:26:21] But, but we do have,

[1:26:23] but the Township cer clearly doesn't employ

[1:26:28] or necessarily want to employ through contract

[1:26:33] somebody as specialized as the vibration or the sound

[1:26:38] and some of that kind of stuff.

[1:26:41] If we were mutually approving, you know, vetting them,

[1:26:45] I think that would just say to us

[1:26:48] and the public that there was an attempt to,

[1:26:51] to protect all of our interests.

[1:26:55] We're gonna start to hear about all

[1:26:57] of the horror stories coming out of the country

[1:27:02] of these centers and what's happened in those areas.

[1:27:07] And, and there were engineers in all of them.

[1:27:11] And, and so

[1:27:15] - Do they have to be licensed by the state of Pennsylvania

[1:27:17] or could I bring in somebody licensed in North Dakota?

[1:27:21] - I think to practice in Pennsylvania,

[1:27:23] you have to be licensed in

[1:27:24] - Pennsylvania.

[1:27:26] I, I would think and,

[1:27:27] and I, the last comment I'll have on that,

[1:27:29] and we then maybe we, we should move on.

[1:27:31] I don't want us to be assuming any liability.

[1:27:35] - That's the other issue.

[1:27:37] - I mean, if we're saying this, we agree with this

[1:27:41] and if they screw up, are we as liable as, I don't know

[1:27:45] that we are or not, but, but we're,

[1:27:47] we're putting our ourself out there.

[1:27:49] Okay, Kim, Mr.

[1:27:51] - Chair before far away.

[1:27:54] - I, I wanted to say please

[1:27:58] - Excuse, excuse me, Shannon, before,

[1:28:00] before your comment, Kim is in the middle

[1:28:02] of making a, a statement. Go ahead Kim.

[1:28:04] - Thank you. Briefly wrote a note about

[1:28:07] what you said about accessory still back under

[1:28:10] electricity consumption.

[1:28:12] So made the note about accessory

[1:28:14] and then just a note on the impact on local fees,

[1:28:19] that is potentially an,

[1:28:20] an appropriate Township level discussion,

[1:28:23] but I, I would offer not in Zoning

[1:28:25] or Aldo, that could be not in a governmental agreement

[1:28:28] or something at the, the manager level and above and so,

[1:28:35] - So long as it can be covered. Yeah,

[1:28:37] - So, so kind of starting a separate list of items,

[1:28:39] just like we have the items that apply across the board,

[1:28:42] not specific to data centers

[1:28:44] and starting a fourth list of items like that.

[1:28:46] Thank you. Thank

[1:28:51] - Shannon.

[1:28:52] Did you have another comment that you wanted to make? I

[1:28:54] - Just have five questions that I'd like to present

[1:28:59] and, you know, know that's, it's, it I I don't even expect

[1:29:04] any immediate response to, to them.

[1:29:06] I just want 'em on record.

[1:29:08] And this, this is based on, on notes I took,

[1:29:11] if the discussion was, was, was taking place, if I may

[1:29:17] - Go right ahead, - It possible

[1:29:22] for us to require developers who are

[1:29:28] submitting applications to, to, to develop data centers, to,

[1:29:33] to, to use solar power as opposed to using,

[1:29:38] using electricity from,

[1:29:41] from our utility resources first.

[1:29:44] That's the first question. Second question is,

[1:29:47] can we put limitation on the type of data centers

[1:29:51] that will be allowed in, in our order

[1:29:54] and within person Township.

[1:29:57] So in other words, colocation data centers, can we maybe

[1:30:03] have a restriction on not allowing colocation data centers

[1:30:06] to be in fer and Township for an example or I,

[1:30:10] or you know, just certain types.

[1:30:12] Okay, so the next one is, can we issue a mandate on the type

[1:30:16] of generators that data center is used

[1:30:19] and require them to use noiseless generators?

[1:30:24] Then the next question is, the fourth question is whether we

[1:30:29] quantify how many data centers will be allowed within the

[1:30:34] specificity of Township within the Township.

[1:30:38] And the last question is, it is more

[1:30:42] that it is more, it's kind of like a statement,

[1:30:45] but it's, it's still something that I,

[1:30:47] that could be responded to.

[1:30:50] I think we should consider what,

[1:30:56] what would a

[1:31:01] definition truly constitute in

[1:31:08] a data set of operating and providing clean air?

[1:31:14] Because the only thing that I've been able to

[1:31:18] find when I research, you know, and

[1:31:21] or hear of testimonials from the existence

[1:31:25] of these data centers is that they emit fuel

[1:31:30] and green gass, which loose the air considering the fact

[1:31:34] that some people are autoimmune compromised.

[1:31:38] You know, may they have cancer, may it be a cancer survivor

[1:31:42] or what have you, or may have the gene

[1:31:45] and not know that they are vulnerable to have cancer.

[1:31:48] So these are my questions

[1:31:51] and with that being said, I agree, I I

[1:31:55] that concludes my questions.

[1:31:57] - Thank you. Like to now, now? Oh yeah,

[1:32:01] - A few.

[1:32:02] - A few. I'll go. I - I'll try to be great.

[1:32:04] - I I'll go right ahead. I'm sorry. I'm sorry Nick. I,

[1:32:09] - My first question is for staff.

[1:32:10] Staff, is there any, any other industry whose

[1:32:13] square footage, footage is regulated?

[1:32:15] Regulated, particularly in the IRI where we say, say

[1:32:19] regardless of those lot, lot size,

[1:32:21] you're gonna use this much square, this much square footage,

[1:32:23] you're then you're bumped up to industrial.

[1:32:24] Industrial? Or is this the only instance

[1:32:27] where we proposed proposal?

[1:32:29] - Our, the first one that I,

[1:32:30] that I call is personal care homes.

[1:32:32] Care homes. Those are distinguished size, size between

[1:32:36] small, small and large.

[1:32:37] Large. I would have to double

[1:32:40] - Check they large, large, they moved to a different zone.

[1:32:42] Zone would be permissible in that zone. Okay. Yes, yes.

[1:32:46] - Places of assessment, - Percent large scale, large social

[1:32:51] - Ralph Paul adult places assembling beliefs are

[1:32:54] also distinguishing by size. Size.

[1:32:56] - Okay. My concern is I might open up some litigation sound,

[1:32:59] sound, I exclusion engineer, but if other, other industries,

[1:33:01] they're also regulated like that.

[1:33:04] If that's the case, then going off of your comment

[1:33:08] before, I think I propose we should include language in this

[1:33:11] Ordinance to just put large data centers 20,000 feet

[1:33:16] up to 99,000 9 9 9

[1:33:18] and just make that permissible on in the industrial zone.

[1:33:23] That's something that I'd like to see in the language if

[1:33:26] that's agreeable to the, the rest of the committee course.

[1:33:29] - Yeah, well the other thing to consider there is,

[1:33:34] I mean you've also, yeah, you can build a data center,

[1:33:37] but what, what's our impervious coverage?

[1:33:40] I mean, you're also gonna be limited on a lot size as to

[1:33:43] how big a building you can put

[1:33:45] because of a limit on impervious

[1:33:47] and I don't recall what they are.

[1:33:49] - B was 50%.

[1:33:51] Yeah, 40% building or 50% impervious. I, I believe.

[1:33:55] - Yeah. So it's gonna take a, it is gonna take a big lot

[1:33:59] to put anything of any size on.

[1:34:03] - Yeah, I was going to say,

[1:34:05] and with your comment, can we look at incorporating

[1:34:08] with these, you know, kind of more structured definitions

[1:34:11] of small, medium, large minimum lot sizes because mining

[1:34:16] and corn does have minimum lot size

[1:34:20] and then a specific impervious

[1:34:23] coverage maximum.

[1:34:26] So I think, and obviously it'd have to be really specific

[1:34:29] for each type that we're talking about here,

[1:34:32] but I think that might help with this, especially

[1:34:36] with those large setbacks.

[1:34:38] I think looking at what that would require,

[1:34:41] and then the only other comment I had was I was wondering if

[1:34:44] it might be, we keep saying data center

[1:34:47] and I'm just concerned that we only have this one term

[1:34:52] and I think there's other terminology

[1:34:54] and so if we can just add, consider adding a sentence

[1:34:57] that says all other had something

[1:35:01] like this term encompasses all forms of data centers.

[1:35:05] There was, you know, server farms, you know,

[1:35:09] different processing facilities, you know,

[1:35:11] whatever fits under that usage

[1:35:16] definition that we have there.

[1:35:18] So, so that the name is not an obstacle in the future.

[1:35:25] - Okay. - If I may one more of course might be a,

[1:35:28] a moot point, but how does this amendment interact with

[1:35:31] and of the discussion about proposed

[1:35:34] shared land use agreement with the other townships?

[1:35:37] Does that obligate other townships

[1:35:40] to have similar ordinances

[1:35:42] or to have a different one that's like complimentary if

[1:35:47] that's not the discussion at this level

[1:35:48] of plain personal, that's fine. I don I don't,

[1:35:51] - I don't think, I don't think it does.

[1:35:52] I mean we have ours, but if we have a shared group

[1:35:57] and if, if it were to be something were to

[1:36:00] be developed in College Township, they're gonna have

[1:36:04] to meet the requirements of college Township.

[1:36:07] - Well, so the other townships are still at liberty

[1:36:08] to write whatever Ordinance they'd like,

[1:36:10] even if we have a shared use agreement.

[1:36:13] - The shared use agreements have to be, it's a formal,

[1:36:19] it is a formal agreement, it's written up with,

[1:36:21] with another municipality and says,

[1:36:23] and what it usually is is a trade-offs that where,

[1:36:26] where another, the other municipality says, okay,

[1:36:29] we'll take your data center

[1:36:31] but you have to take our share of, you know, it it,

[1:36:34] it is a swap back and forth

[1:36:36] and it has to be in place beforehand.

[1:36:38] It's you, you can't just say, you know, well,

[1:36:41] well we have an agreement with Patent Township if,

[1:36:44] if we don't, and it's specific to help me out.

[1:36:49] It's specific to this use versus that use.

[1:36:55] I think my comment Nick, in relation to this is

[1:37:00] looking forward right now

[1:37:05] it's in the municipalities, all of 'em in the Centre Region

[1:37:11] to protect themselves

[1:37:13] and we're kind of in a protect ourselves mode with regard to

[1:37:19] the design and us having our own standalone Ordinance.

[1:37:24] College Township has its

[1:37:28] patent Township is in a shared use agreement

[1:37:31] with College Township.

[1:37:39] It's my vision that this whole discussion

[1:37:44] really needs to be that the region

[1:37:49] has a similar Ordinance

[1:37:53] to cover the all five municipalities

[1:37:56] because we share so much of the resources.

[1:38:01] The water isn't Ferguson townships, it's the regions

[1:38:07] and, and the electricity coming in.

[1:38:11] We've got the university and its capacities and

[1:38:16] and we share in in a lot of things.

[1:38:20] So it's my thought that that

[1:38:25] eventually there may be enough consensus

[1:38:29] between the townships

[1:38:32] to actually have a regional position with regard

[1:38:37] to data centers, but we can't start there.

[1:38:41] I think we have the obligation to protect Ferguson Township

[1:38:46] independent of all the others and,

[1:38:50] and I think that's what this is doing

[1:38:55] for us at the moment.

[1:38:58] - I understand. Okay. That's the priority.

[1:39:01] - I also, I also heard a, a discussion about a week ago

[1:39:09] where farmland

[1:39:13] of course is being used in some states as

[1:39:18] good source of location.

[1:39:20] It's in the middle of nowhere, it's flat

[1:39:23] and all of those things, the amounts

[1:39:27] of money being offered to purchase

[1:39:33] farmland in this country is huge.

[1:39:39] Walking away as a farmer getting up

[1:39:43] and milking cows seven days a week

[1:39:45] or whatever, looking at a hundred fold,

[1:39:51] what they would get for their farmland is the kind

[1:39:55] of money being thrown around nationwide

[1:39:59] to buy properties and, and so it's significant

[1:40:04] and that's why I think it's imperative that we do

[1:40:08] what we're doing right now and that is protecting ourselves.

[1:40:13] We're fortunate in this Township to have some protections

[1:40:18] of our farmland that a lot of places don't have

[1:40:20] because they don't even have Zoning. Okay.

[1:40:25] - Yes sir. Sorry Mr. Chairman, my last point,

[1:40:27] and again this might be out of the purview

[1:40:29] of the planning commission, perhaps the Township has never

[1:40:31] had an a situation where there was a lack

[1:40:34] of faith in an engineer's report.

[1:40:36] It's going back to the discussion about engineers, tons

[1:40:38] of money being thrown around, heaven forbid someone's bribe.

[1:40:42] Perhaps we need to have some sort of written protocol.

[1:40:45] Maybe it's something the board of Supervisors needs

[1:40:47] to discuss for dealing with some bad lack

[1:40:50] of faith in an engineer's report

[1:40:52] and how to, how to resolve that.

[1:41:01] Yeah, I don't, I don't know what so route is to take to that

[1:41:03] or who to even propose it to, but just

[1:41:07] because it hasn't happened here.

[1:41:08] - Just, just to one thing out consistent with

[1:41:12] what other areas possibility of providing

[1:41:17] the developer be responsible for the cost of our

[1:41:22] employing some an engineer to review, not to do

[1:41:27] but to, to review the plans or something like that.

[1:41:31] Just is just a thought. Okay.

[1:41:36] Is there insurance that

[1:41:40] somebody can take out?

[1:41:42] Errors in omissions

[1:41:43] or, well, the engineer's gonna have errors what we

[1:41:48] commonly would refer to as malpractice,

[1:41:50] but errors in omission, I mean clearly

[1:41:53] that would be a requirement.

[1:41:56] Okay. You people have been very patient.

[1:42:00] I didn't have, there's no order,

[1:42:02] but if you would like to come forward

[1:42:05] and identify yourself, make your comment

[1:42:08] or raise your question and we will move forward.

[1:42:12] Ho, if your thoughts

[1:42:16] and comments would be similar to thoughts

[1:42:21] or comments that have already been made, if you would simply

[1:42:25] let us know who you are and that you do agree with

[1:42:29] or whatever so that we don't have a lot

[1:42:31] of repetition. Yes sir. Thank

[1:42:34] - You.

[1:42:35] I appreciate the opportunity.

[1:42:36] My name is Dave Craig, I'm a resident of Burson Township.

[1:42:39] I represent Greenleaf Manor,

[1:42:41] planned residential neighborhood, very close to here.

[1:42:44] I appreciate all of you learning a lot about this topic

[1:42:47] and working to make this place a nice place to live.

[1:42:51] I think that's what we're all trying to do here, right?

[1:42:53] Is just to protect having this be a nice place to live.

[1:42:57] So similar, just I'll throw out four topics,

[1:43:02] I don't need an answer, but I think

[1:43:03] they're good things to talk about.

[1:43:06] The first is just the concept of these size categories.

[1:43:10] I think you were right to,

[1:43:11] and the group has been right

[1:43:12] to think about differentiating further

[1:43:14] and maybe push some of these

[1:43:17] larger things into more towards the industrial side

[1:43:21] and just not discount the size.

[1:43:23] So when we say zero to 5,000 square feet,

[1:43:26] the picture there was of a closet that looked to me

[1:43:30] to be about eight or 10 square feet.

[1:43:34] 5,000 is a lot more than that, right?

[1:43:35] If I had a 5,000 square foot home,

[1:43:37] I would be very happy and very rich.

[1:43:38] That's a very big building.

[1:43:40] And if you filled that all up with industrial equipment,

[1:43:44] it would make a lot of noise, it would consume a lot

[1:43:47] of power, it would consume a lot of water.

[1:43:48] So don't discount when we say small,

[1:43:51] that small is pretty big.

[1:43:53] So let's think about those categories.

[1:43:56] I also have concerns about, so that's 0.1, 0.2,

[1:44:01] I have concerns about the narrow language

[1:44:03] that we're talking just about data centers.

[1:44:06] I appreciate what you said about can we use other terms

[1:44:09] and anticipate other terms

[1:44:11] because data center is just one term, it's just one type

[1:44:16] of factory that's popular

[1:44:17] to talk about right now, but just a factory.

[1:44:20] So what if somebody wants to build a cement plant

[1:44:23] or a lumber yard or some other type of factory?

[1:44:27] Can they make as much noise as they want?

[1:44:29] Can they consume as much electricity and water as they want

[1:44:32] because they're not building a data center?

[1:44:35] Or if they find some other terminology, oh,

[1:44:38] this isn't a data center, this is a computing center,

[1:44:40] this is a AI center, whatever.

[1:44:42] Just wanna make sure that somebody building any type

[1:44:45] of factory would be held to these standards

[1:44:49] to keep this a nice place to live.

[1:44:50] And not put out dirty pollution, not put out noise,

[1:44:54] not consume water, not consume an egregious amount

[1:44:57] of electricity for any kind of factory, right?

[1:44:59] Not just data centers. That's 0.2, 0.3.

[1:45:04] I happen to know a lot about noise.

[1:45:05] I've talked to staff about noise and vibration.

[1:45:07] I work for a company that does this kind of stuff

[1:45:11] I've mentioned before and I still have concerns about the

[1:45:13] fact that the primary measurements we're talking about here

[1:45:17] are an a weighted sound measurement.

[1:45:21] I really believe that's the wrong thing to be measuring.

[1:45:24] A weighted sound heavily focuses on sound between

[1:45:29] 1000 and 6,000 hertz.

[1:45:32] These are loud high frequency noises.

[1:45:35] There's things like sirens, you know, high frequency noises,

[1:45:40] the noise that's gonna be emitted by a data center

[1:45:43] by any other kind of factory

[1:45:44] or by college kids having a party

[1:45:47] or by a car driving by with its base pumping.

[1:45:50] It is going to be low frequency noise that's going

[1:45:53] to bother people, that's gonna shake their homes,

[1:45:56] that's gonna disrupt pets, that's gonna disrupt wildlife.

[1:45:59] It's not gonna be noise in the killer hertz range.

[1:46:03] It's gonna be noise in the tens to hundreds of hertz.

[1:46:07] So why are we using a measurement that specifically

[1:46:13] discounts that kind of noise

[1:46:15] and focuses on high frequency noise instead?

[1:46:18] I think we're fundamentally measuring in the wrong thing.

[1:46:21] What should we measure? Well there's things in there

[1:46:23] mentioning C weighting.

[1:46:25] So C weighting is a little bit broader, right?

[1:46:27] A weighting is very narrow.

[1:46:28] It's from 1,006,000 hertz roughly,

[1:46:31] and things outside that are heavily discounted.

[1:46:34] C weighting is a little bit broader.

[1:46:37] And then Z weighting is total encompasses everything,

[1:46:41] the entire sound spectrum.

[1:46:43] So I really think we should be looking at C

[1:46:46] or Z weighting as a primary measurement.

[1:46:50] I know there's some stuff written there saying the C

[1:46:52] weighted measurement can't be more than 10 decibels more

[1:46:55] than a weighted measurement.

[1:46:56] There's some language in there,

[1:46:58] but we're kind of like a couple steps away from the truth.

[1:47:02] Like we should just be measuring the full sound spectrum

[1:47:05] instead of measuring a narrow portion of it

[1:47:07] that probably doesn't matter.

[1:47:10] And then having some auxiliary clauses to like add to that.

[1:47:14] I think we're measuring the wrong thing.

[1:47:17] And then my fourth point, when this all started,

[1:47:20] I know a lot, there was a lot

[1:47:21] of information gathering different other communities there

[1:47:24] instances, things like that to use

[1:47:26] as reference materials, which is great.

[1:47:29] Some of the language was presented from Chester

[1:47:31] and Montgomery Counties.

[1:47:34] The, again, a weighted measurements, which I again,

[1:47:36] I think is the wrong thing, but their measurements were,

[1:47:39] their limits were 45 decibels

[1:47:43] during daytime hours, 40 decibels

[1:47:46] during nighttime hours.

[1:47:49] So 45 and 40, the proposed language here

[1:47:54] is 55

[1:47:55] and 50 10 decibels higher,

[1:47:59] 10 decibels equates to human ears,

[1:48:04] 10 decibels is twice as loud.

[1:48:08] So my question is, why was it decided

[1:48:10] that Ferguson Township residents deserve to be exposed

[1:48:15] to noise twice as loud as

[1:48:19] what is allowed in a more urban area like Philadelphia?

[1:48:23] I think that's an interesting question.

[1:48:26] That's all. Thank you.

[1:48:28] - Thank you. Okay,

[1:48:39] - Mr.

[1:48:40] Chairman, I'd just like to point out this is,

[1:48:41] I think the third time this gentleman has brought up the

[1:48:43] same point and it seems like haven't really given him any

[1:48:46] resolution yet as to whether

[1:48:47] or not we're gonna change those decal limits.

[1:48:50] I think he deserves something from us on that.

[1:48:54] - I think Kim, Kim, you you want to,

[1:49:00] - I'll just briefly

[1:49:02] and Pedro has a more detailed explanation.

[1:49:04] We did meet, we have looked at that.

[1:49:08] If you look at what we have now, that is much less,

[1:49:10] we went down 10 points that would've been down to 20 points.

[1:49:14] What we're combating is you have, what we have now is

[1:49:18] even if it is outdated, it is consistent with

[1:49:21] what you see at a national level.

[1:49:24] So if you were to do a sound study of all these existing,

[1:49:27] like whatever we have right now,

[1:49:29] everybody is then gonna have to drop their decibels,

[1:49:33] drop their sound from their existing baseline.

[1:49:37] So this was kind of meant to be sort

[1:49:39] of like an incremental change.

[1:49:41] But lemme let Pedro talk. We did consider this,

[1:49:45] - Yes, we did have, as in, as Kim mentioned, we did meet

[1:49:49] with Mr. Craig and he gave us a lot of information

[1:49:52] that we actually incorporated in this Ordinance.

[1:49:56] And compared our, our Ordinance,

[1:50:01] our draft Ordinance compared to any other Ordinance,

[1:50:05] to be completely honest, is a great improvement.

[1:50:10] And you can obviously be improved even further.

[1:50:14] What we currently have for decibels in our current Ordinance

[1:50:18] as it's written, is 55 for residents show

[1:50:22] and 62 decibels in the eight weighted scale for,

[1:50:27] for industrial, the Ordinance also,

[1:50:31] this is also an opportunity that we took for us

[1:50:33] to improve the, the, the township's noise Ordinance

[1:50:37] where it was ambiguous, whether 65 or 62

[1:50:41] and 55 were applicable to which district, which boundaries

[1:50:46] or this new Ordinance clarifies and cleans up that language

[1:50:50] and makes it, it makes it obvious

[1:50:53] that the 55 is within the border of, of, of,

[1:50:57] of residential and, and industrial

[1:51:00] or any other, any other board

[1:51:02] or any other district bordering a residential district.

[1:51:05] And these numbers are to be held for the tap, for the,

[1:51:10] or for the district that's receiving the noise.

[1:51:14] And so point that we added was that within the, the,

[1:51:19] the, the scale of measurements on a weighted scale,

[1:51:24] we did incorporate language for c weighted scales where

[1:51:29] regardless of, of where you are measuring,

[1:51:31] of which band you're measuring the noise from the, the, the,

[1:51:35] the A weight, the c weighted scale cannot be larger than 10

[1:51:40] decibels compared to its equivalent a weighted scale.

[1:51:44] So which means if the, if the all of those areas,

[1:51:49] all of those areas of low frequency where a, a, a,

[1:51:53] a weighted scale cannot capture, but a

[1:51:55] but a c weighted scale does capture those numbers with

[1:51:59] that differential that we put in place.

[1:52:02] Anything above a difference of 10

[1:52:05] vegetables would be considered not approval by, by,

[1:52:08] by this Ordinance.

[1:52:09] But obviously we can continue receiving more feedback on

[1:52:14] things that might be, that we can improve this Ordinance.

[1:52:17] And another thing

[1:52:18] that we incorporated in this Ordinance was the tonal element

[1:52:24] where if there's, is this, if it's being determined

[1:52:27] that there's a tone in this

[1:52:29] or a tone is, is a variation,

[1:52:34] sharp variation of the noise in when there's a steady

[1:52:38] continuous noise

[1:52:39] and there's a sharp, like if, if this is was a a a if this

[1:52:44] this normal noise that we are making here

[1:52:47] and then maybe a sound like the door is constantly banging,

[1:52:51] that will be captured by that tone of noise

[1:52:53] and who's to determine that whether a noise is tonal or not.

[1:52:57] The Ordinance also we, that we place here that counts for

[1:53:00] that which, and an engineer will be able to determine that.

[1:53:03] And once that is determined, then a cap

[1:53:06] or a an additional penalty of five decibel will be imposed

[1:53:10] into in, in whatever development, in whatever application

[1:53:15] that we are receiving on the Township.

[1:53:17] So if you look into the, the way

[1:53:22] noise is measured across the industry, there is no consensus

[1:53:27] of which scale is better than the other.

[1:53:29] And I believe Mr. Craig, I'm, I'm not sure if, if I'm wrong,

[1:53:33] correct me, there is no consensus in, in the entire industry

[1:53:38] for to say C is better than anything else.

[1:53:42] However, those, those scales can be applied

[1:53:46] for specific types of, of noise that is most common to the,

[1:53:50] and depending on the geography of of of, of

[1:53:53] where you are measuring, right?

[1:53:55] This is a Township being a Zoning Ordinance.

[1:53:59] The most common noises that that, that,

[1:54:01] that could be enforce,

[1:54:03] that could be common in the Township are cars,

[1:54:07] our generators, our our all of these industrial noises

[1:54:11] that Mr. Craig mentioned.

[1:54:13] Which is why if you look into any

[1:54:15] or most Zoning ordinances across the country, you will see

[1:54:19] that the most common used scale is a weighted scale.

[1:54:24] However, we acknowledge that

[1:54:26] a weighted scale doesn't capture all of the noise,

[1:54:28] which is why we incorporated at this, attempted

[1:54:32] to incorporate sea weighted scales

[1:54:35] and tone weight, internal noise

[1:54:37] attenuations in this Ordinance.

[1:54:40] So I believe this has already improved just for the draft.

[1:54:44] This already is an improvement to

[1:54:45] what the Ordinance currently is.

[1:54:48] And as we receive more

[1:54:50] and more feedback, we can continue to improve

[1:54:52] and incorporate more things to

[1:54:55] continue improving this Ordinance.

[1:54:57] - Okay. I believe,

[1:54:59] and correct me if I'm wrong,

[1:55:00] that the question is why are we at 55 and not 45?

[1:55:04] Is that the point you were making?

[1:55:06] - Yes. That question was sort of answered by Kim, where

[1:55:10] as we look into the ordinances across from all of those

[1:55:14] that we saw, there is, there is no

[1:55:17] cer there is no specific number that like 40, 40 decibels

[1:55:22] for this, for for residential or 50 or 65.

[1:55:25] There's no consensus in the number.

[1:55:28] And we saw that 55 was already a,

[1:55:33] was already what's in the Ordinance, what the previous board

[1:55:36] of supervisor had had approved.

[1:55:38] So we incorporated that same number with, with the penalty

[1:55:42] of five decibels in case of a tone.

[1:55:44] However, this is not a set number that the, the staff chose.

[1:55:49] Therefore that has to be, this is not,

[1:55:51] this is not what's happening here,

[1:55:52] which is why we having this meeting

[1:55:54] when these decisions will be made by the board,

[1:55:57] this decision will be made as we receive feedback that if

[1:56:01] the, the board suggests, no, we don't want 55 lower to 50

[1:56:05] to 40, we are gonna do that because this is a canvas

[1:56:09] or this is a blanket or a starting point for the,

[1:56:12] for, for the Ordinance.

[1:56:13] We have to start somewhere and then we receive feedback

[1:56:17] and we make change.

[1:56:20] - And, and when we're,

[1:56:21] we're talking about this particular thing, are we limiting

[1:56:27] the standard to our

[1:56:31] industrial zone

[1:56:32] or are we saying that the standard is now

[1:56:37] every zone in the Township?

[1:56:40] - As in the noise level? Yes.

[1:56:42] The noise level as we proposed in Ordinance,

[1:56:45] I don't think you can see it, it's on page.

[1:56:49] Page 15 is measured at the boundary

[1:56:54] of, of the, of the property boundary.

[1:56:58] So being 60 for commercial

[1:57:01] and 62 for industrial

[1:57:03] and residential, depending on the, the daytime is 50 for,

[1:57:08] for daytime and, and 55 for daytime and 54 nighttime.

[1:57:19] And the previous previous Ordinance Ordinance did,

[1:57:21] did not have this,

[1:57:24] does not current current have currentness Ordinance does,

[1:57:27] does not have have this, this reduction

[1:57:30] of de dele 55 fives as specified night nine at all.

[1:57:34] At all. Which we believe we thought was an improvement

[1:57:38] to what we currently have.

[1:57:39] But it can, if it can be improved further,

[1:57:41] then this is why we are here.

[1:57:43] - And, and I guess in relation to that,

[1:57:50] My next question would be do we have a sense of

[1:57:54] what the impact will be by changing

[1:57:59] this in, in some

[1:58:03] of our other zones?

[1:58:04] In other words, do we're changing it with,

[1:58:09] with a, with an emphasis on the, the industrial kind

[1:58:14] of area and the whole discussion,

[1:58:17] but I routinely see complaints

[1:58:21] and hear about complaints all the time.

[1:58:25] Somebody's running a leaf blower at seven o'clock at night

[1:58:30] and that goes across

[1:58:33] property lines at significant decibels.

[1:58:36] And so I I wanna make sure that, that we're,

[1:58:42] we're not having an

[1:58:46] unintended consequence with regard to

[1:58:52] our setting of these decibels, you know, across the board.

[1:58:56] Okay. Unintended consequences frequently come back

[1:59:01] to, to really hurt good intentions.

[1:59:07] And, and I think

[1:59:08] that when one is designing something like this,

[1:59:11] I think one has to pass the, the wording

[1:59:17] by the unintended consequences person

[1:59:22] to, to take a look

[1:59:23] and see what is the consequence of this

[1:59:26] in other environments

[1:59:29] - For specifically this draft, there's a different section

[1:59:34] that deals with noise produced by

[1:59:40] electrical equipment that isn't, that isn't considered

[1:59:44] property like, like a fixed prop element of the property.

[1:59:49] Okay. So because we were attempting to amend the, the,

[1:59:53] the noise Ordinance for the purpose

[1:59:55] of incorporating data centers

[1:59:58] and all other industrial noises, we did not

[2:00:03] amend or we did not propose an amendment to ch to ch

[2:00:07] to change the, the decibel levels for like leaf blowers

[2:00:11] or alarm or if that is a different section of the Ordinance

[2:00:14] that is on I think,

[2:00:15] well 10.38 or something. I

[2:00:19] - Believe.

[2:00:20] I I appreciate it and the concerns have been raised.

[2:00:23] You've heard 'em and I'd like to move on at this point.

[2:00:27] This gentleman has been very patient.

[2:00:29] I'm not sure, I haven't been willing but I, go ahead.

[2:00:32] Go right ahead sir. Thank

[2:00:34] - You.

[2:00:35] My name is Bob Hershey

[2:00:37] and I live in Fer Township for the last 21 years

[2:00:41] I was a consulting hydrogeologist in the Centre Region

[2:00:45] and across the state.

[2:00:47] So my interest is in the water

[2:00:50] and I guess I have a concern on page 10, item A,

[2:00:55] I'll just read the sentence.

[2:00:56] I have issued approval shall not be granted

[2:01:01] for a day at the center proposing the use

[2:01:03] of groundwater wells springs

[2:01:06] or direct withdrawals from surface water,

[2:01:10] surface water courses.

[2:01:12] I guess my question is twofold.

[2:01:14] First of all, do you have the authority to do that?

[2:01:17] I don't believe you do.

[2:01:19] Second of all, why would you restrict it?

[2:01:23] Why wouldn't you allow somebody

[2:01:25] to provide their own groundwork

[2:01:30] and, and piggybacking on that, the discharge

[2:01:35] that was already brought up, if,

[2:01:37] if they're gonna withdraw gravel water, use it for cooling

[2:01:41] and put it back in the gravel water,

[2:01:43] why would you allow that?

[2:01:47] And the parallel to that would be heat pumps

[2:01:50] or gravel water geothermal wells.

[2:01:53] I don't think you restrict those people withdraw water,

[2:01:57] use it for cooling or heating

[2:02:00] and then put it back in the ground wire.

[2:02:02] So I think you want

[2:02:04] to make sure you don't put yourself in a position

[2:02:06] where you could be sued

[2:02:08] because I think you may have taken some

[2:02:10] authority you don't have.

[2:02:14] - Thank you Mr. And I can we refute do a, a comment

[2:02:18] and B, given Ms v's professional experience,

[2:02:23] certainly something that should be run by our solicitor.

[2:02:28] - And one other note too,

[2:02:29] because you started getting involved in the electricity,

[2:02:33] it's kind of a parallel situation.

[2:02:36] Do you have the authority as a Township to designate

[2:02:40] how they get their power?

[2:02:43] I don't know. That's a question.

[2:02:45] And, and, and if you do, fine.

[2:02:48] If you don't, you're gonna get sued.

[2:02:49] And I pay for the lawyers to defend.

[2:02:53] - I think, I think the Ordinance does provide

[2:02:57] that there is the opportunity for all alternate sources

[2:03:01] of electric, solar, et

[2:03:05] - Cetera.

[2:03:06] But you can't force that.

[2:03:08] - No, no, we definitely, we definitely could not force that.

[2:03:10] - Which I think answers the question that was asked earlier.

[2:03:13] - It yes. That that you you are correct.

[2:03:17] We definitely cannot enforce that.

[2:03:18] - Great. Okay. Thank you.

[2:03:23] - I just didn't need to, didn't to

[2:03:27] - The language says the applicant shall ation the

[2:03:31] electricity utility verifying my

[2:03:33] position specific, which provide

[2:03:37] - It also provide or initial

[2:03:41] provided that you could use.

[2:03:43] So other, other sources that's Yeah, yeah.

[2:03:48] So, so they can, yes

[2:03:53] - Ma'am.

[2:03:54] - Hi, I'm, I'm Rita Lowe

[2:03:55] and I'm a resident here in the, in the Township.

[2:03:59] And first I wanna thank all of you for the amazing amount

[2:04:03] of work you've already put into this

[2:04:04] because that's why I came to, I really wanted to know what

[2:04:08] what has been thought of along the way.

[2:04:11] But you've, you've done so much already,

[2:04:14] which I'm really thrilled to see.

[2:04:16] And I also wanna thank Ms. Holiday.

[2:04:20] I don't know if she's still there.

[2:04:21] - She, she, she's there. She just took her

[2:04:24] - For bringing up the health risks.

[2:04:27] I I, I'm here, I'm sorry. Yes, yes.

[2:04:32] I'm a healthcare provider

[2:04:34] and I happen to live with someone who has hearing loss.

[2:04:38] So I know all too well

[2:04:40] how difficult some of these issues are.

[2:04:42] And one of the things that stuck out in my mind was on page

[2:04:45] six, number four

[2:04:50] must provide proof

[2:04:51] and compliance thereof

[2:04:53] that the data center will not endanger

[2:04:55] public health and safety.

[2:04:57] What sort of proof would you be looking to receive?

[2:05:05] What kind of document would prove something that health

[2:05:08] and safety was not a problem?

[2:05:13] So what I was thinking is in all the different

[2:05:17] consultants and experts

[2:05:20] and research that you do, wouldn't it be prudent to

[2:05:25] consider having a physician who's familiar with these issues

[2:05:31] and or an audiologist who would, who would know even

[2:05:35] before you started talking about all the decals

[2:05:38] and what environment is good for this person or that person

[2:05:42] or this in infirmity

[2:05:44] or that potential problem they would know

[2:05:47] and be able to advise you without having to guess.

[2:05:53] So I mean I think that all of the different topics

[2:05:56] that you have focused on are great,

[2:05:59] but when this holiday brought up the health

[2:06:03] and safety issue that sort

[2:06:05] of got lost in all these other topics

[2:06:08] and I think it really does deserve its own special place in

[2:06:12] your thinking and your planning.

[2:06:15] And again, I do appreciate what you've already done.

[2:06:19] It's amazing. So thank you.

[2:06:21] - Thank you ma'am. Mr. Chair and

[2:06:23] - Thank - You.

[2:06:24] Could I just comment on

[2:06:26] that while we're looking at number four on page six,

[2:06:30] if we look at that sentence must provide proof

[2:06:33] and compliance thereof

[2:06:34] that the data center will not endanger.

[2:06:37] I'd like to change

[2:06:39] or consider having the word

[2:06:43] endanger change to impact.

[2:06:46] Ah, endanger is a, is a,

[2:06:54] that's clearly a safety, you know that

[2:06:57] whereby we're really talking about

[2:07:01] our a DA residents and so on.

[2:07:05] And so the issue of impact

[2:07:07] I think is more appropriate than in danger.

[2:07:12] Well, let's take that a step further.

[2:07:15] I I don't think that's enforceable.

[2:07:18] I don't think that that whole sentence there is

[2:07:22] B belongs in the Ordinance.

[2:07:23] How, how do you do that?

[2:07:25] How do you provide proof

[2:07:27] and compliance that it will not

[2:07:30] affect the public health and safety?

[2:07:34] - I agree. Where, where's what document is that?

[2:07:37] Yeah, I agree completely with you.

[2:07:39] I I don't think that all that is is ambiguous

[2:07:43] and doesn't help and can't be proved.

[2:07:46] I mean how are you gonna provide proof? Yeah, you

[2:07:49] - Can't, the compliance part I, I assume

[2:07:51] that any development would've to comply with

[2:07:53] what other public, whatever safety laws already exist

[2:07:57] - In the town, Jim.

[2:07:58] - So at least in the interim,

[2:08:00] Lisa mentioned this a little bit earlier, she said

[2:08:03] that usually it says something like the

[2:08:05] board determines that.

[2:08:07] So we'll find a way

[2:08:08] to make it congruent with the rest of it.

[2:08:10] But I took out must provide proof

[2:08:12] and compliance thereof. Okay so

[2:08:15] - Thank you - Allude to the direction we're going

[2:08:20] but yeah, so that's been noted.

[2:08:23] We'll figure out how to soften that

[2:08:25] but at least the ideas there

[2:08:27] to at least incorporate all the things you're talking about.

[2:08:30] What's that impact? Go ahead.

[2:08:31] - Yeah, I was just gonna say I would look at that mining

[2:08:33] and quarrying one that has almost the exact same language

[2:08:37] but doesn't have the must provide proof

[2:08:42] and with the like the initial,

[2:08:47] the initial purpose statement is really well written in

[2:08:51] that mining reporting one.

[2:08:52] So if you look at that I think that might be helpful.

[2:08:55] - Thank you - David. Ma'am

[2:08:59] - My name's Ashley Craig, I'm also from Greenleaf Manor.

[2:09:04] I'm actually moving on to number five right after the proof

[2:09:07] and compliance section.

[2:09:09] And I know that you had added the A, B

[2:09:11] and C since the draft went out yesterday or the day before.

[2:09:17] I guess my question is Mostly

[2:09:22] related to e kind of B as well,

[2:09:26] not being familiar with the land development

[2:09:31] plans that are submitted.

[2:09:33] How specific do you get in saying

[2:09:35] what you want in the environmental

[2:09:37] and community impact analysis

[2:09:40] if you don't have any provisions?

[2:09:42] I feel like it's really important to include maybe some

[2:09:47] topics to include but not limit to addressing.

[2:09:51] So things like, like at a minimum address these topics

[2:09:56] in this analysis in the community impact analysis.

[2:09:59] So like wildlife, heat islands,

[2:10:03] I don't see anything about heat

[2:10:05] or temperature in these in the Ordinance.

[2:10:09] Odor, noise, smoke, dust, litter, glare.

[2:10:12] I just wanna make sure that whatever environmental

[2:10:16] and communi community impact analysis is done includes those

[2:10:20] topics and maybe even the preliminary analysis in general

[2:10:24] statement as well.

[2:10:27] And then beyond just talking about that,

[2:10:30] is the analysis also to require that the applicant speak to

[2:10:35] what measures are going to be employed to mitigate

[2:10:38] or eliminate any of the negative impacts that the set,

[2:10:42] those analysis bring up to the table on people

[2:10:47] you know on wildlife, on agriculture.

[2:10:50] So I just wasn't sure,

[2:10:52] you know the current ordinances in place, how

[2:10:56] specific are they in saying like

[2:10:57] what does this analysis require?

[2:10:59] Because if it doesn't,

[2:11:01] I feel like why not offer at a minimum

[2:11:03] what topics should be addressed.

[2:11:06] And also I'm not really sure like what it says,

[2:11:08] you know there's a preliminary analysis

[2:11:10] and general statement to be have a meaningful discussion

[2:11:15] and then maybe the conditional use will be approved.

[2:11:17] How often is the conditional use approved

[2:11:21] and the Zoning permit denied?

[2:11:23] I just, I guess I just wanna make sure that the environment

[2:11:26] and the community impact are

[2:11:30] taken seriously documented

[2:11:33] and I don't know

[2:11:35] how thorough the current ordinances are in DES describing

[2:11:38] what should be included in that analysis.

[2:11:41] So a little bit of education on my part, I don't know

[2:11:44] but like if there isn't, you know, that level

[2:11:47] of granularity, I feel like it'd be important

[2:11:50] to suggest topics to cover.

[2:11:54] So that's it.

[2:11:56] - Thank you Mr. Mr. Chair? Yes ma'am. Thank you.

[2:12:00] That was very helpful. I took a lot of notes in what he said

[2:12:03] and also very savvy on your part.

[2:12:06] The, our solicitor called out that exact line,

[2:12:10] the the environmental community impact.

[2:12:12] So that was part of the reason why we made this change.

[2:12:17] So, and that's also why it's clunky language

[2:12:19] 'cause it was just the fact just today.

[2:12:22] But her point was well do we have any other spot in our code

[2:12:27] where we already addressed that?

[2:12:28] Where we already have standards?

[2:12:30] Not really, we just knew we wanted to get there.

[2:12:33] So this what your feedback that's,

[2:12:36] I was just thinking yeah again that's why we're here

[2:12:37] because that's what, that's very helpful.

[2:12:40] And then also related to,

[2:12:42] you were talking about the education on the, the process

[2:12:45] that was her other point.

[2:12:46] And there are other parts of the other conditional uses

[2:12:49] that Laura use as well, but maybe shouldn't

[2:12:51] and that's the conditional use versus land development plan.

[2:12:56] Every development you see that that's most

[2:12:58] of the business we have here is a land development plan

[2:13:01] which is kind of the, I call it the birth certificate sort

[2:13:05] of, but for each property in theory

[2:13:08] that they all have this land development plan

[2:13:10] and then the Zoning permit is issued off of that.

[2:13:13] But in some cases where the use it, it's,

[2:13:19] it should have more public input, it is a conditional use

[2:13:23] and that's what we've got here.

[2:13:25] But so we automatically said when you submit your,

[2:13:29] the previous drafts and when you submit your conditional use

[2:13:31] application include your land development plan.

[2:13:34] But that's, that's where it gets really messy.

[2:13:36] 'cause then you've got a cart horse problem.

[2:13:39] So that was part of what she was calling out was why,

[2:13:43] you know, why are you asking for the most detailed piece

[2:13:48] right at the beginning where we're deciding if it's even

[2:13:50] appropriate where it's this neighborhood discussion.

[2:13:53] So, so again that was the reason for kind of like

[2:13:57] for the language that we used,

[2:13:58] understanding this could be written probably a little bit

[2:14:01] better but the idea was to show that give us enough

[2:14:04] that we can understand what we're looking at.

[2:14:07] It's, it's similar to when you have a brand new subdivision.

[2:14:11] And I don't mean to be split a land, that's a lot.

[2:14:14] I mean like a total green field.

[2:14:16] Usually there's like a sketch plan,

[2:14:18] a preliminary discussion right at the beginning

[2:14:21] where we still kind of had the paintbrushes,

[2:14:23] the big paint brushes out.

[2:14:24] You're not really doing the specific survey

[2:14:28] and all, all the way at the end.

[2:14:31] So if that, so thank you

[2:14:35] and I hope does that help offer a little clarity?

[2:14:38] - Yeah, just make sure that the analysis in court in

[2:14:43] yeah there's some definition around which be

[2:14:46] at a minimum discuss, you know, presented by the,

[2:14:52] - I appreciate that also the, the wet measures, you know,

[2:14:56] the mitigation measures as well is very helpful.

[2:15:00] Okay, thank you.

[2:15:09] - Hello again, my name is Natalie Ray

[2:15:12] and I am here to talk as a citizen

[2:15:15] or I live in Ferguson Township

[2:15:17] but I'm also a researcher

[2:15:18] that studies communities navigating data centers.

[2:15:21] I really appreciate the work that's been put into this,

[2:15:24] the openness for vision and this whole process.

[2:15:26] So I really wanna thank everybody up here,

[2:15:28] everybody in the room online

[2:15:30] because this is really important.

[2:15:32] I just have a couple questions that don't need

[2:15:34] to be addressed at the moment.

[2:15:36] Just like curiosities

[2:15:37] and kind of like things that I've been thinking about.

[2:15:40] One thing that stood out and was discussed was

[2:15:42] the growth square footage.

[2:15:44] That was the first time actually that I've seen,

[2:15:46] and I'm not saying that I've seen in everything

[2:15:48] but the ratings of data center size, I've usually seen it

[2:15:53] by energy usage and I understand that the capacities change

[2:15:57] and so even

[2:15:58] that may not be like a really strong static measure of like

[2:16:01] how big these data centers can even be.

[2:16:04] And so I was just curious if there was,

[2:16:06] and this is again hypothetical, I'm not saying

[2:16:08] that this is exists, a way to indicate and I,

[2:16:12] and I don't know what's allowable

[2:16:13] and the all legal aspect of it,

[2:16:15] but it just stood out to me that

[2:16:17] what you're talking about is not only about the size,

[2:16:21] like the footprint of the building

[2:16:23] but also the intensity of the energy that,

[2:16:27] and so if there's like an energy density ratio

[2:16:29] or something like production size,

[2:16:32] like production like gigawatts per

[2:16:35] size or something like that.

[2:16:36] If there's like a better way to get at what you're trying to

[2:16:40] categorize, maybe dunno if that exists,

[2:16:43] but just throwing it out there in terms of,

[2:16:47] I really appreciate people who brought up the concerns about

[2:16:49] health and safety and like making that prominent

[2:16:51] because I think that it's really hard to try to enforce

[2:16:55] but I think is imperative to talk about.

[2:16:59] I'm just curious about the use of an advisory board

[2:17:02] or like a panel of specialists like you mentioned

[2:17:04] audiologists or health experts in these conditional

[2:17:08] use conversations.

[2:17:09] Again, not sure about process,

[2:17:11] but it just stands out that a different amount of

[2:17:13] or layer of expertise alongside like what's enforceable

[2:17:18] to give comment on the health impacts

[2:17:20] whenever these conversations are had in terms of water.

[2:17:25] I just wanted to note there was a guardian article

[2:17:27] that was published today that talked about PFAS

[2:17:29] or the, I'm not gonna say the name correctly,

[2:17:32] but that type of water pollutant

[2:17:35] as increased within the AI industry.

[2:17:37] Not saying necessarily that it was related to data centers,

[2:17:40] but that's one of those things

[2:17:41] that are those emergent categories of pollutant

[2:17:45] or things that we didn't know about maybe

[2:17:47] or not as known about in the past like five

[2:17:49] or 10 years that I'm sure we're gonna be more concerned

[2:17:53] about in the next 10, 20 years.

[2:17:55] And so, you know, if we're not measuring it

[2:17:58] or we don't know about it, that it's kind of like hard to

[2:18:03] say what's gonna happen with that.

[2:18:04] But people are already concerned about that,

[2:18:07] especially when you're talking about withdrawing water,

[2:18:09] putting that water back into the groundwater if you don't

[2:18:12] know if it's contaminated with those pfas.

[2:18:16] And then the last thing, it just struck me,

[2:18:17] the conversations that were had about like wanting

[2:18:20] to get the language right and I'm not a lawyer at all,

[2:18:23] I know there's a law professor at Penn State, Hannah Wiseman

[2:18:27] who studies this as well.

[2:18:30] We had a conversation recently.

[2:18:32] But one thing that stood out to me is that

[2:18:33] because I don't know about the language, what got

[2:18:36] to me in this process and it sounds like we want

[2:18:38] transparency in the process

[2:18:39] or we want transparency in that data.

[2:18:41] Like you're saying like, oh like the

[2:18:43] license and the engineer.

[2:18:45] What I'm trying to get at is if it's possible at all

[2:18:48] to have this data about the noise levels

[2:18:51] or those measurements not confined

[2:18:53] to the private relationship of an engineer municipality

[2:18:56] or even the engineer and the developer,

[2:18:58] but like publicly available that way that

[2:19:00] that like individuals who wanted to, you know,

[2:19:03] look at the data themselves.

[2:19:05] You have Penn State researchers, I'm may slayer

[2:19:07] that wanna know like is are people living up to

[2:19:10] what they said they would

[2:19:12] and if there's any way to make the water

[2:19:14] those non-operational, you know, it's all transparency

[2:19:19] and the big tech is not very transparent.

[2:19:24] Yes. But I would imagine

[2:19:26] 'cause it's drawing on municipal water supply that we

[2:19:28] as municipality might wanna know about,

[2:19:30] is there any like reporting that has to be made public?

[2:19:34] And that's basically I think what everything I had

[2:19:37] just really, again, appreciative

[2:19:39] of everybody here and thank you so much.

[2:19:41] - Thank you Ms. Ray. Any anybody else

[2:19:44] wanna make any comments?

[2:19:48] Well, do you have a hand? Oh yes. Whoever.

[2:19:53] SG is Sharon.

[2:19:57] Oh

[2:20:02] you did?

[2:20:02] Yes. Who is it? Sharon, Gerald. Alvin,

[2:20:06] - Yeah.

[2:20:07] Okay. Okay, can you hear me?

[2:20:09] - Yes. - Okay, great.

[2:20:11] Okay, so I wanna also reiterate that it's great

[2:20:16] to be able to hear all the things

[2:20:17] that you guys have been considering

[2:20:19] and how much time you've been putting into this,

[2:20:22] especially when it's all a moving target

[2:20:25] and evolving so rapidly.

[2:20:28] A lot of things that were said that I agree with,

[2:20:30] but I just wanna bring up three things.

[2:20:32] I think one is things that I felt are important

[2:20:36] that I would not want us to lose sight of would be also

[2:20:41] considering or making some type of, if we can, some type

[2:20:43] of limitation or comment about the impact on the environment

[2:20:47] with the greenhouse gases

[2:20:48] and the pollution impact on

[2:20:53] respiratory diseases.

[2:20:55] And I think that that, you know, you guys have touched on

[2:20:59] that as far as like the community impact statement,

[2:21:02] maybe having the advisory board

[2:21:04] that talks about health impact, et cetera.

[2:21:07] I think the second thing is

[2:21:12] some assessment or responsibility not to

[2:21:16] but these companies not to increase

[2:21:19] and impact the cost of, of the development

[2:21:23] and upgrading the power system

[2:21:29] to increase the cost of electricity

[2:21:31] to homeowners in the area.

[2:21:33] I think that's another thing that's really important.

[2:21:37] And then the final thing was, again, another resource

[2:21:42] that maybe you guys have already tapped into, thinking again

[2:21:46] about who's in the, you know, talking about collaboration

[2:21:50] between the townships and things.

[2:21:53] But there was an article published

[2:21:55] or printed earlier this spring and I guess re-edited in June

[2:22:00] and it was a, a law professor

[2:22:05] Mike Helbig, H-E-L-B-I-N-G talking about,

[2:22:11] yeah, the, the title was about

[2:22:13] how Pennsylvania towns are protecting themselves from the

[2:22:16] noise, heat, and utility costs of massive data centers.

[2:22:21] I just found that my husband just found that tonight,

[2:22:23] so I haven't had a chance to read it.

[2:22:25] But I mean obviously, I mean, I, I,

[2:22:30] like I said, I dunno if that's something

[2:22:31] that you guys were aware of

[2:22:32] or have even maybe used as a resource

[2:22:36] is from the Penn State Institute

[2:22:37] of Energy and the environment.

[2:22:40] That's it. Thank you.

[2:22:42] - Thank you, thank you. I wanted, I wanted

[2:22:44] to take this opport everybody everybody

[2:22:47] participated tonight.

[2:22:48] Tonight. I think there think, there've been a lot of, lot of

[2:22:53] thought thought and there's been a lot of comments.

[2:22:56] Comments and I know that know has, has been scribbling,

[2:23:00] hopefully not scri writing.

[2:23:02] Writing oh, an awful lot down.

[2:23:05] And I think, I think it certainly,

[2:23:06] certainly when it comes time to time to a motion motion,

[2:23:11] certainly certainly want to see the review

[2:23:14] and to the draft Ordinance.

[2:23:17] I'd like to, in my college

[2:23:21] by quoting one of my favorite, my favorite philosophers,

[2:23:24] philosophers, Ted Lasso.

[2:23:27] And this past Wednesday, he said,

[2:23:30] we can't let let the perfect get in the way of the good.

[2:23:34] And I think it is important for us to move forward.

[2:23:37] We need to make as, make this as good as we can,

[2:23:41] but we don't wanna be discussing this a year from now.

[2:23:45] And so that is my final thought. It

[2:23:50] - Yeah.

[2:23:51] One final thought from me, Kim.

[2:23:55] I can honestly say to you that

[2:24:00] this document, as it has been presented as a draft,

[2:24:06] clearly exceeds what I expected as a draft.

[2:24:12] Your staff has done a wonderful job and,

[2:24:15] and I'm not exactly sure what I expected,

[2:24:20] but whatever it was, this is better than what I expected.

[2:24:25] And and it clearly incorporates,

[2:24:30] you know, a lot of the things that have been discussed

[2:24:34] leading up to tonight.

[2:24:36] And as chair said, you

[2:24:41] all have been taking voluminous notes as we've been talking.

[2:24:45] And so good job

[2:24:48] thank you about

[2:24:53] - What's that?

[2:24:54] Can I'll entertain a motion to Adjourn. So moved.

[2:24:58] - Second. I'll take a

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9/14/26 Ferguson Township Planning Commission

Agenda

Transcript