[0:00] - The CACJ is a nonprofit focused on restorative justice,

[0:03] a system of criminal justice

[0:05] that focuses on the rehabilitation of offenders

[0:07] through reconciliation with victims

[0:09] and the community, it's justice with the goal

[0:12] to heal rather than punish.

[0:15] Our five programs are pretrial supervision, youth aid panel,

[0:18] the youth counseling pilot program, mediation

[0:22] and community conferencing.

[0:24] Our program save taxpayers over $400,000 per year,

[0:28] empower individuals

[0:29] and groups to resolve their own conflicts and are affordable

[0:33] and accessible to the community.

[0:35] To learn more or to make a referral,

[0:38] visit our website or give us a call.

[0:44] - The Centre Region Active Adult Center is a vibrant,

[0:46] inclusive, and happening location designed

[0:48] for active adults 55 years and over to be social

[0:51] and participate in new experiences while all

[0:53] staying close to home.

[0:54] We promote healthy aging through our many activities

[0:57] and health forums, as well as lifelong learning

[0:59] through classes and social interaction

[1:01] that suit almost any lifestyle.

[1:03] Whether you prefer line dancing followed by a walk

[1:06] or a game of bridge and a meal,

[1:07] the center is sure to have something for you.

[1:09] Visit crpr.org for more info.

[1:15] - You are watching CNET Center County's Government

[1:18] and Educational Access Network.

[1:24] - At this time, I'll call to order the Ferguson Township

[1:26] Board of Supervisors meeting for Tuesday, September 15th.

[1:29] The order Please rise as you're able

[1:30] and join me for the Pledge of Allegiance.

[1:34] - I pledge all alle allegiance do the flag,

[1:36] United States of America

[1:38] and to the republic for which it stands,

[1:41] one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty

[1:45] and justice for all.

[1:47] - Thank you. You may be seated.

[1:49] And at this time I'll recognize the assistant Township

[1:51] manager who will provide us

[1:53] with our meeting procedures and call to role.

[1:56] - Thank you chair and thank you to the members of the board,

[1:58] staff and public for joining us this evening

[2:00] for the September 15th, 2026, Ferguson Township Board

[2:03] of Supervisors regular meeting.

[2:06] This meeting has been properly advertised in accordance

[2:08] with the Pennsylvania Sunshine Act as a hybrid meeting

[2:10] with the option to attend virtually

[2:12] and in person here at the Ferguson

[2:14] Township Municipal Building.

[2:15] Members of the public attending virtually are asked

[2:18] to remain muted during the meeting

[2:19] to prevent any ambient noise from disrupting the meeting.

[2:22] If you were attending virtually

[2:23] and would like to make a Public Comment,

[2:25] please use the raise hand feature

[2:26] and once acknowledged by the chair,

[2:28] you may unmute the microphone for question or comment.

[2:31] If you were attending in person

[2:32] and would like to make a Public Comment,

[2:34] please approach the podium

[2:35] and state your name, municipality of Reside,

[2:37] and Municipality of residence.

[2:39] Finally, a Roll Call of the board

[2:40] of Supervisors will now be taken.

[2:42] Please indicate that you are here when

[2:43] your name is called Mr.

[2:45] Thompson. Here. Mr. Patterson.

[2:50] - He is online. He is online? - Yes, he is online.

[2:53] - Ms. Stephens? I'm here. Mr. Heller? Here.

[2:57] Mr. White. Here. Chair.

[2:58] - You have a court. Alright, thank you.

[3:05] No announcements and proclamations this evening.

[3:07] So we'll go straight into public comments.

[3:09] So this will be for items

[3:10] that do not appear on the agenda tonight.

[3:13] I know there is a various people here

[3:15] to speak on various items that are on our agenda tonight.

[3:19] So we'll continue to go down through the order of our agenda

[3:22] and call for Public Comment when we get to those items.

[3:26] So for any items that are not on the agenda at this time,

[3:29] we will go with public in the room.

[3:31] You'll get five minutes

[3:33] and then when you come up to the podium, we ask you

[3:36] that you state your name and municipality of residence.

[3:41] So yeah, we'll start in the room if your your first

[3:44] and then we'll get I saw your hand up there West.

[3:46] We'll get to you next.

[3:53] - All right. Just talking to this thing. Yeah. Yep.

[3:57] All right. Thank you for having me. Good evening everyone.

[4:01] Thank you. Of course. For allowing Public Comment

[4:04] and for listening to my concerns over the last few months

[4:07] regarding none other than the bioswale.

[4:12] I'd like to introduce myself.

[4:14] My name is Alicia and I've been a Ferguson Township resident

[4:17] since 2020 when I moved over the mountain from Huntington

[4:21] County after having my daughter Hazel Lark, I commute

[4:24] to a wonderful job on South Atherton via Whitehall Road,

[4:27] and I'm very knowledgeable about native plants, wetland

[4:31] and stream restoration, wildlife, habitat management,

[4:34] and endangered species protections.

[4:37] Ask my husband. I'm a very passionate person when

[4:39] it comes to conservation.

[4:41] On July 15th during the height of peak wildflower season

[4:45] and on my commute to work,

[4:46] I noticed a tractor mower cutting down blooming plants

[4:49] within the bile bioswale at the Ferguson Township building.

[4:52] My heart sank, especially given the fact that I'm very aware

[4:55] of what was growing in the bioswale.

[4:58] I sprang into action immediately

[4:59] and called the Township office to determine their decision,

[5:02] especially during the worst time to mow.

[5:05] I spoke with a few folks in the office

[5:06] and one at length regarding the decision.

[5:10] I decided to spread the word,

[5:11] so maybe some of you have seen.

[5:13] I contacted numerous local agencies to make people aware.

[5:17] I have a lot of friends who are like-minded

[5:18] and they recommended a way

[5:19] to reach people within the community.

[5:21] I'm a millennial, but I really didn't know next door.

[5:25] So I had a friend post.

[5:27] Over 45 positive comments were

[5:30] regarding saving the bioswale 45 likes.

[5:34] Loves most of the, the posts actually reached 3000 people.

[5:39] It truly warmed my heart.

[5:40] I can tell you a lot of people have called

[5:42] and sent in negative comments

[5:44] to the Township folks over the last month

[5:47] since they started mowing,

[5:49] and I don't believe the Township

[5:50] has highlighted them enough.

[5:51] During the last few meetings,

[5:53] the number one reason given about the bioswale being mowed

[5:56] was that there was, quote, an overwhelming number

[5:59] of complaints throughout the years.

[6:02] I truly would like to offer to meet these folks

[6:04] that have complained as someone

[6:06] who grew up on a 2000 acre dairy farm in the finger lakes

[6:09] of New York, I understand the negative sentiment over wild

[6:13] spaces and un manicured lawns.

[6:16] I grew up mowing every inch of every space on the farm,

[6:20] including right up to the edge of numerous ponds.

[6:22] I can tell you my thoughts have changed.

[6:25] My dad and my brother also have changed

[6:28] their thoughts on wild spaces.

[6:29] I was just up there this past weekend

[6:31] and they have beautiful fields

[6:33] and forest edges, field edges of golden rod

[6:37] and aster blooming.

[6:38] It's quite wondrous. Manicured

[6:42] lawns are a thing of the past.

[6:44] Wildlife areas are a hot ticket.

[6:46] Goldfinches, hummingbirds, bees, butterflies, insects,

[6:49] spiders thrive in un unloaded wild spaces.

[6:52] It's all a healthy ecosystem when your property can provide

[6:55] food, shelter, and water for such wonderful,

[6:57] sometimes threatened species

[6:58] and most of all misunderstood species.

[7:02] I was able to obtain the seed mixes used in the

[7:04] land development plan.

[7:05] Through my research, there were areas slated

[7:08] for reforestation, of course, the bio swell

[7:11] for stormwater filtration

[7:13] and the landscape restoration areas.

[7:15] The bio swell was Ernst 180 3, very specific to bios,

[7:19] swes, native grasses.

[7:20] You're not gonna find any wildflower really in that mix.

[7:24] Typical costs probably was probably around $800.

[7:27] The area seeded for the landscape restoration were Ernst

[7:30] 1 53, which is a showy northeast native

[7:33] wildflower grass mix.

[7:35] It included a lot of different wildflowers,

[7:38] purple cone flower, black-eyed Susan Sunflowers,

[7:41] mountain mint butterfly weed, which is a host monarch plant,

[7:44] golden rods, so on and so forth.

[7:46] Typical probably cost would've been

[7:49] around a thousand dollars for that specific area.

[7:52] I can promise you the restoration areas were

[7:55] had a lot of those species.

[7:58] I particularly saw a lot of butterfly weed.

[8:00] Again, Monarch Caterpillar's host plant.

[8:03] I confirmed the plant types by taking pictures

[8:06] of the only un unloaded section, which is left

[8:09] on the right side of the building.

[8:11] You can see those on next door

[8:13] or if you wanna copy, I have pictures.

[8:15] Sure, no restoration area is perfect.

[8:17] And yes, you will have invasive plants popping up.

[8:20] I particularly am very knowledgeable about invasive plants

[8:23] and it's really hard to control them,

[8:26] but just to give up on 'em is a different story.

[8:29] The best time to mow is in early spring.

[8:32] It's certainly not now because it's monarch season.

[8:35] You if you, if you mow, now you're cutting down milkweed,

[8:38] which is the monarch again, host.

[8:41] There's chrysalis and caterpillars everywhere right now,

[8:44] and especially not mid-July.

[8:46] I've been told. We're just mowing it

[8:48] and yet they continue to mow it.

[8:51] After a few growing seasons of mowing,

[8:53] you'll effectively kill the plants.

[8:55] According to the er, er Ernst Seed representative

[8:59] that I spoke to at Ag Progress days,

[9:01] he also gave me a kudos pat on the back.

[9:04] He told me it takes courage to stick up

[9:06] for what's right in my community.

[9:09] My main concern this whole time has been the fact

[9:11] that we're, that this was all an

[9:13] improvement of the facility.

[9:15] It was an educational moment for the Township

[9:18] and that taxpayer money was used to enhance this area.

[9:21] It was beautiful.

[9:23] It had flaws, but you can,

[9:25] you can't expect it to be perfect.

[9:27] I challenged the Township folks to grow

[9:29] and not just throw an establish resource away

[9:31] because of a few complaints over the years.

[9:34] Some great places to visit that are very similar

[9:36] to the Bioswale are located at Ag Progress Days,

[9:39] harvest Fields, Cecil Irvin, dic, butterfly Gardens,

[9:42] spring Creek Restoration Area.

[9:44] There's so many I can't even name them.

[9:46] You'll be surprised at the life living within these little

[9:50] ecosystems and maybe make a small

[9:51] but mighty little change in your own yard space.

[9:55] DCNR and Centre County Conservation District have been

[9:57] giving away free native seed this past year

[9:59] to convert your lawn to meadow.

[10:01] And I just picked up some the other day.

[10:03] I just wanted to read an excerpt

[10:05] after the bio swell was put in

[10:07] that the Ferguson Township put in their newsletter.

[10:10] If you have driven down Whitehall Road,

[10:12] you may have noticed Ferguson Township

[10:15] building has new vegetation on this property.

[10:17] While it may look unkempt grass

[10:19] with weeds from afar up close, it's an intentional ecosystem

[10:24] that has a positive environmental impact on both rainfall

[10:28] and our native wildlife known as bioswales.

[10:30] These channels are built into the ground to transport water

[10:33] and have secondary purpose of removing debris and pollution.

[10:37] Great thing. I recommend Doug Tami books

[10:40] for more information or if anyone would like

[10:42] to just sit down with me and have a coffee, discuss,

[10:45] discuss anything that I've mentioned below or above.

[10:49] I would like to inspire my neighbors

[10:51] and friends, just like I try

[10:52] to inspire my daughter every day.

[10:54] I hope to continue effective dialogue

[10:56] and look for ways to protect

[10:57] and maybe even enhance the bioswale.

[10:59] Thank you for your time.

[11:04] - Thank. Thank you. Alicia. Did you? Nope.

[11:10] - Alright, next again, I guess I said West

[11:19] - Do five minutes.

[11:22] I wrote down

[11:25] - We Glebe Ferguson.

[11:28] I can't hold a candle to that brilliant presentation.

[11:31] That was great. What I did want to just

[11:35] let people know about was a group called

[11:38] Food and Water Watch.

[11:40] I just got their fall,

[11:52] their fall issue.

[11:53] And it's about

[11:59] pushback against data centers primarily.

[12:04] And what was interesting is that they are offering

[12:10] toolkits, webinars,

[12:14] and things that you can send for.

[12:17] So I, I'll leave this with Jenna

[12:21] or whoever's appropriate and they can make some copies

[12:27] and I'd like this back,

[12:31] but I'm not in a rush.

[12:33] So if anybody wants out in

[12:38] CNET Land wants to have a look at this,

[12:41] I suppose they can come in

[12:43] and get a copy. That's that.

[12:50] - Okay, thank you Wes.

[12:52] Anyone else in the room for items

[12:54] that are not on our agenda tonight?

[12:55] I know we do have a lot of items on the agenda,

[12:57] but we will get those in the order that they appear.

[13:01] Go straight into the middle of the room there.

[13:10] - Hey everyone, can you hear me? Sweet.

[13:13] Okay, gimme one moment. Okay.

[13:16] Okay, So my name's Thomas Lichty.

[13:20] I am born in State College.

[13:22] I live in Greenbrier, which is in Ferguson Township.

[13:25] And then I also, that's where my parents live.

[13:27] And then I was raised there 18 years

[13:30] and now I'm a student at Penn State and I live downtown.

[13:32] But one of the things that's kind of pressing

[13:34] to me this current moment is flock safety cameras,

[13:37] the Axon cameras, stuff like that.

[13:40] So if you guys don't know, I think there's 22 cameras on

[13:42] Penn State's property

[13:44] and I wanted to bring that to everyone's attention

[13:46] because these cameras, what they'll do is they'll scan your

[13:49] license plate, they'll scan the like bumper stickers on your

[13:52] cars, the color of your cars.

[13:53] And none of us are consenting to this.

[13:55] We have an implicit right to privacy

[13:57] as enshrined by the constitution.

[13:58] And I think it's important that the council here takes

[14:02] that into account

[14:03] and remembers that it's their responsibility

[14:06] to protect us from things like this.

[14:08] None of us are into the warrant, this tracking

[14:10] that these cameras are doing.

[14:12] None of us are committing crimes.

[14:15] You know, like it's, it's dumb that we have

[14:17] to worry about someone watching us

[14:19] and like it's just, it's just strange

[14:22] that like someone will want this in our community.

[14:24] So I was hoping that you guys would be willing

[14:25] to pass an Ordinance against this.

[14:27] I know most of the people I talk to, if not all

[14:29] of them, are against this.

[14:31] And like the argument is like, oh,

[14:32] well why should you care if

[14:33] like, you're not doing anything wrong?

[14:35] It's like, I want to be able to

[14:37] feel like I'm safe from these people

[14:39] who are running these companies with no oversight.

[14:42] Like we have no idea where this data is going.

[14:44] And I personally think that that is extremely dangerous

[14:47] because I care about my privacy

[14:49] and the privacy of other individuals in this community.

[14:52] And I also think it's a danger

[14:53] because when we look at technology

[14:55] as an engineering student at Penn State,

[14:57] technology isn't perfect.

[14:59] That's why we have unit ops technicians.

[15:02] When I was at Merck for my summer internship,

[15:04] they would have, people would have

[15:05] to troubleshoot these machines and whatnot.

[15:07] And it's because they are wrong sometimes.

[15:09] Sometimes they go out of spec and you have to fix 'em.

[15:12] And I think it's important to realize

[15:13] that this technology is wrong.

[15:15] I believe in Florida a man was fine for a speeding ticket

[15:18] and he was out of the state

[15:19] and it was due to an error in the system.

[15:21] And one of the important things is

[15:23] that if you're like accused of a crime by the government,

[15:26] you, you shouldn't first be accused of a crime

[15:29] because like, I mean we're innocent until proven guilty.

[15:32] And I think it's dumb that an automated system can kind

[15:35] of convict us of something like that.

[15:37] And I think another important thing is

[15:40] that if you wanna prove your innocence, you have to go

[15:42] to the government, you have to hire a lawyer, you have

[15:45] to say, look, this is what actually happened.

[15:47] And you know, in a time where there's a ton

[15:50] of economic uncertainty in our country

[15:51] because of an idiot who's running our country

[15:53] and is completely selfish and is literally trying

[15:55] to stay out of jail because he's a pedophile,

[15:58] allegedly a pedophile.

[15:59] But like, let's be real for one moment.

[16:01] Like everyone knows what's selfish that.

[16:03] So I think it's just important to realize

[16:05] that you guys have the opportunity to protect us.

[16:08] And I would love for you guys to pass an Ordinance.

[16:11] And if law cameras do come to Ferguson Township,

[16:15] it's important to remember that we

[16:16] are the people who elect you.

[16:17] And if you do not protect our right to privacy,

[16:20] we will vote you out

[16:21] and we will replace you with people who will thank you.

[16:29] - Thank you. Thank you for your remarks, Thomas.

[16:32] We do have an item on our agenda

[16:34] for discussion later in the meeting on

[16:36] automated license plate readers.

[16:37] So I, I do believe Flock is a kind

[16:41] of a part of that discussion.

[16:42] So we will have that coming up later tonight on the agenda

[16:45] and we'll be taking some public comments.

[16:47] So just ask if anyone has anything on related to that to try

[16:52] to hold those remarks to that point.

[16:55] But since this is still Public Comment, for items

[16:57] that are not on our agenda,

[16:59] anyone else in the room had anything

[17:00] that wasn't on the agenda that they wanted

[17:02] to discuss this evening?

[17:06] Not CNA in the room. Anyone online?

[17:11] Okay, not CNA.

[17:12] For further we'll close Public Comment, we'll go

[17:16] to the approval of the minutes from our September 1st

[17:19] meeting pending no corrections,

[17:21] do I have a motion to approve those?

[17:22] This is Patty. So moved. And do we have a second?

[17:25] This is Trevor. I'll second. Okay. Motion be made by Ms.

[17:28] Stephens, second by Mr. White. All those in favor say aye.

[17:31] Aye. A Any opposed? Say aye. Aye. A motion passes.

[17:35] And next we have some reports

[17:37] and presentations for our diversity, equity

[17:40] and inclusionary activities and acknowledgements.

[17:43] September is suicide prevention month.

[17:46] Next step will be our authorities,

[17:48] boards and commissions reports.

[17:49] And we'll start with the Spring Creek Watershed Commission

[17:51] and that will be presented by Mr.

[17:53] Kevin Abbey.

[18:00] - Thank you. Kevin Abbey, Ferguson Township resident

[18:04] and representative to the Spring Creek Watershed Commission.

[18:10] We have made a practice that I come in and report quarterly.

[18:16] So this being my report for the third quarter, I wanted

[18:20] to just touch base on the materials that I sent you

[18:27] to transmit the 2027 budget

[18:31] from the watershed commission passed at the,

[18:34] our last business meeting, which was mid-July.

[18:40] And that was sent to the Township along

[18:43] with budget letter.

[18:46] Many folks, when we went through this exercise

[18:51] the previous year, asked us to catalog when we come in,

[18:55] what activities have been underway.

[18:58] So I included eight, eight

[19:00] or nine bullet points

[19:02] that the commission has been actively involved in.

[19:06] And I won't go through all of those one by one,

[19:10] you've got a full audience

[19:12] and a lot of people that want to make presentations.

[19:15] So I would just submit those materials,

[19:20] the practices that we adopt our budget in July,

[19:26] get it out to the member municipalities in September.

[19:29] So you know, what we're asking

[19:34] or requesting as you start to move into your budget season,

[19:39] probably the primary thing to identify is

[19:43] we're the watershed commission felt no increase in the

[19:48] per capita levy that funds the commission,

[19:52] which is set at 25 cents

[19:55] and based on the 2020 census that generates right

[19:59] around $30,000 a year.

[20:02] So any questions or

[20:06] - Any questions from Mr.

[20:07] Abby?

[20:10] - Thank you, Travis, - Go ahead.

[20:12] I just wanna say thank you again for the report,

[20:14] the information and the details

[20:15] of saying here are the important things to, to focus on.

[20:18] That always helps me in deliberation and conversation.

[20:20] So thank you for providing that insight. Thank

[20:22] - You.

[20:23] Yeah. Okay.

[20:26] - Thank you. - Thanks.

[20:29] - Alright.

[20:33] - It's gonna say Mr.

[20:34] Mr. Abby is represented Township well on that commission

[20:38] for quite a few years, and we thank him

[20:40] for his participation.

[20:42] Next up, we'll have the university joint authority UHAA

[20:45] report presented by Wes

[20:47] - Wesley Glebe.

[21:14] - All right. I I assume you have this in your packet.

[21:18] We do. Okay. So I'll just spin over like,

[21:23] the first item is ozone disinfection.

[21:27] And that's been a long haul coming online

[21:31] to the finished state,

[21:36] but I think as I understand it, it's,

[21:41] it's completely up and running now.

[21:45] You can see that it's

[21:49] a much more effective

[21:51] and disinfectant for the end process

[21:55] of our reuse water than

[22:01] o ultraviolet was.

[22:02] And ultraviolet was a real hog as far as energy consumption.

[22:06] So I think we should all be glad that we're off of that.

[22:10] And on to ozone.

[22:13] Now, I make a joke that we had to make a, a contract

[22:17] with the Ozone nation.

[22:19] They, they live in, in Upper Ontario,

[22:23] but everything's still good.

[22:26] Ha ha.

[22:31] So I won't go into that anymore.

[22:36] The anaerobic digester

[22:38] and sludge dryer, that's, that was probably one

[22:42] of our biggest projects to date,

[22:44] at least since I've been on A-U-H-A-A board.

[22:50] It's not entirely up and running.

[22:53] It takes a while to get the

[22:57] digester is completely full so

[23:00] that they're making methane.

[23:05] Methane is, is captured

[23:08] and then the CO2 is separated from it.

[23:11] CO2 has a, has a, a resale value

[23:15] that's being pursued.

[23:20] So we'll have to wait

[23:21] and see when

[23:23] that's completely fully operating.

[23:26] One thing that that did happen was, is that the price

[23:30] of gas, since the digesters were starting to be filled,

[23:35] has just rocketed up.

[23:38] When I say gas, I mean natural gas.

[23:41] And so I think it's official,

[23:45] but I mean, I was there when they were talking about it.

[23:50] That doesn't make it official,

[23:51] but they're going to

[23:56] put in a new pipeline from the digesters to the dryers

[24:01] so that we keep and use the na the natural gas

[24:05] that's produced because it's economically more viable.

[24:08] So that's, that's just come up with that line.

[24:12] It can be shunted off

[24:14] or on, so it can be go to resale

[24:17] or it can go to on onsite use, which is kind

[24:22] of a nice feature.

[24:24] And I, that, that pipe will cost about a hundred thousand.

[24:28] So it seems like it's well worth it.

[24:34] The, the other exciting thing for me in terms of community

[24:39] is that UAA is partnering with five

[24:43] or six nearby wastewater treatment plants,

[24:49] and they're having to truck

[24:54] their biosolids to

[24:59] landfill, which there's nothing sustainable about

[25:03] landfill for the most part.

[25:06] So they'll now be trucking it to us

[25:10] and we'll process their solids.

[25:14] And there's a fee, a tonnage fee.

[25:17] I, I don't know what it is,

[25:19] but it's, it's, it's a money making enterprise

[25:25] for the UAJA

[25:27] and which will help pay down the overall cost

[25:30] of the whole new system

[25:32] and keep a tonnage outta landfills.

[25:38] So, hey, that's gotta be good, right?

[25:51] So you can see there's, there's savings

[25:54] and there'll be income when everything is completely going.

[25:59] Now the 5 37 plan,

[26:03] that seems like it's been going on forever,

[26:06] but Ben from HRG was in the last

[26:11] meeting and he says everything's,

[26:15] everything's going good on that.

[26:20] So I'm not gonna dwell on that.

[26:24] The rate dispute with the State College Borough,

[26:30] I got up at Borough Council at the last council meeting and,

[26:35] and asked the council members to speak to their

[26:41] representatives, you know who they are

[26:44] and please, let's get this thing settled.

[26:47] It it's too small of a, of an area to keep

[26:52] pushing this into court.

[26:55] So I'm hoping, I saw,

[27:01] I saw the mayor at a, at a meeting last night

[27:05] and asked him, do you think anybody listened to me?

[27:07] And he said, oh yeah. Oh yeah, well,

[27:10] you know, we'll see.

[27:13] We'll, the put in

[27:17] town road interceptor

[27:27] that's been grinding on too with people,

[27:32] you know, whinging about upsetting

[27:37] the, the marsh.

[27:42] And recently Corey

[27:47] had an opportunity to talk to the stakeholders

[27:53] and suggested that they work on a comprehensive plan

[27:59] for getting these kinds of things done.

[28:02] So I was with Darren Brown yesterday

[28:07] and doing a, a ride along.

[28:09] And there, he's, he's a supervisor of

[28:15] collection systems.

[28:17] So they're hoping that this is a kind of a project

[28:22] that when UAJ does it, they'll do it at an optimal time,

[28:26] like in the winter when the ground is frozen

[28:29] and there'll be the least amount of damage

[28:30] and they'll, they'll lay plates down

[28:35] all, all the way in and out.

[28:37] So, you know, the damage will be minimal.

[28:41] And most of the stuff that people are worrying about,

[28:45] they're going to grow back.

[28:48] There's no way to get around dealing with the interceptor.

[28:51] It's, it's too small.

[28:53] And with the, the Greystar thing

[28:58] going in, it needs to be done.

[29:02] So I don't know if that that is understandable,

[29:06] but solar array one purchase

[29:15] that's moving along, I was surprised to see that in here.

[29:19] I thought we had already done that.

[29:21] But anyway, the

[29:26] non-residential rate alternatives,

[29:35] that's been going for a while.

[29:37] As you know, mark, mark worked on that study and

[29:47] the recommendation was is that we collect data

[29:53] in terms of, of volumetric water flow, divide that into,

[29:57] into EDUs and Bill that way.

[30:04] So again, it's not resolved yet,

[30:07] but it's moving along.

[30:12] Do you want me to go over the financial things

[30:15] - And, and when?

[30:17] - Okay, I - Think we're good there. We wes,

[30:23] - My, my sense

[30:24] after five years is it's

[30:27] UHA is a well run machine

[30:30] and yeah, I spend time with the guys out in the field

[30:35] and a lot of them are older and they're all happy.

[30:39] They're all all happy to have the jobs that they have.

[30:43] Everybody knows what they're doing.

[30:46] It's not, I've been on jobs where you have a bunch of

[30:51] of green people and nobody knows what they're doing.

[30:55] And so the job takes five times as long

[30:58] and of course costs five times more.

[31:00] And I, I think UHA is extraordinarily

[31:03] efficient in those, in those terms.

[31:07] So I'll close with that. And

[31:09] - Any questions or remarks for West, Mr.

[31:12] - Galler? Mr. Gle, as I mentioned earlier, Mr.

[31:14] Abby, again, I appreciate you putting together the report

[31:17] and, and making it nice and concise.

[31:19] I will have, I do have a proposal though, if I may,

[31:22] for the sludge dryer.

[31:24] I get tired of seeing the name Sludge dryer.

[31:27] You know, it's, it appears this and that.

[31:29] What about there's always been wonderful, something

[31:31] - Sexier.

[31:32] - Well something, let, let's say it this way maybe

[31:35] that there's always outreach

[31:36] between the elementary schools and UHAA.

[31:39] There are tours and this and that.

[31:40] - Oh, fifth graders, they love

[31:42] it. They all go through. Yeah.

[31:43] - Right. So why not offer a competition

[31:46] to name the sludge dryer?

[31:48] Something better. Cool. Something fun, right? Well

[31:51] - I have - Sludgy mc sludge face,

[31:53] - Have a UAJ meeting tomorrow

[31:55] and I will definitely bring that up.

[31:58] - I think it'd be a lot of fun now. So thank you.

[32:00] And on a more serious note, I know a lot

[32:02] of constituents are interested in what's going

[32:04] to be happening with the potential, the budget

[32:07] disagreement with State College.

[32:09] So I know folks are watching that

[32:11] and again, I appreciate the update

[32:12] and yeah, I might move to trial, so thank

[32:15] - You.

[32:16] Yeah, and I'd like to say to Warren

[32:17] and Jenna, Melissa Komar, who works

[32:22] for HRG now

[32:23] and who used to be head

[32:26] of this sewer authority in Johnstown

[32:29] and then was head of redevelopment council.

[32:33] She's scheduling in for a tour

[32:37] at my suggestion.

[32:40] Great. And it would be great if you two

[32:43] or anybody else would want to bring along, could,

[32:45] could coordinate with that tour

[32:48] and I'm hoping that Corey will do a little sit down after

[32:51] - James and I already met with Corey the other week.

[32:53] James and I did a tour last week.

[32:56] - Oh, you did your tour with? - With Corey.

[32:59] - Oh. Oh, okay. I didn't, I didn't know that.

[33:01] See I'm not really up to date.

[33:03] You know, it's on a need to know basis. Okay,

[33:08] - Thank you.

[33:09] Thank you. Thank you Wes.

[33:15] Alright, next we have the Centre County Ag Land Preservation

[33:19] Easement purchase Program in Ferguson Township.

[33:21] And I will recognize the Township manager

[33:23] to introduce our special guest,

[33:24] - Certainly from the Centre County Ag Agricultural Land

[33:27] Preservation Easement Purchase Program.

[33:30] We have presented by Elizabeth Perone. Hue

[33:34] - Everyone.

[33:35] - Thank you. - Good evening guys. My name's Elizabeth.

[33:39] I am the coordinator

[33:41] for the Agricultural Land Preservation Board.

[33:44] So I'm here it's budget season. I was here last year.

[33:47] I don't know if you guys remember me.

[33:49] Just here to give some background on the program,

[33:53] talk about what we do.

[33:58] Yeah, get excited about

[34:00] preservation Next.

[34:05] So S County AG Land Preservation Board, C-C-A-L-P-B

[34:09] 'cause that's a very long title.

[34:12] What do we do? We administer a program for the purchase

[34:15] of agricultural conservation easements with in accordance

[34:19] with Act 1 49.

[34:21] ACT 1 49 amends the Ag Security area law

[34:25] from 1988 establishing Pennsylvania's agricultural

[34:28] conservation easement program.

[34:31] It amended the A SA law to further provide

[34:34] for agricultural areas Public Hearing evaluation criteria,

[34:38] decisions and review of proposed areas,

[34:41] appeals limitations on local agencies, policies

[34:44] of the commonwealth, limitation on exercise

[34:47] and exercise of eminent domain

[34:49] and purchases of development rights.

[34:52] We also promote efforts

[34:53] to support the ag community in Centre County.

[34:56] And we encourage the use

[34:57] of additional farmland preservation techniques

[35:00] through agricultural, through public

[35:02] and private organizations.

[35:03] That includes Clearwater Centre County Farmland Trust,

[35:07] Western Pennsylvania Conservancy and others.

[35:10] I'm sure we adopt rules of procedures

[35:14] and bylaws governing the operation of the county board.

[35:18] And we purchase in the name of the county

[35:20] or jointly with local government unit

[35:22] or with the commonwealth

[35:24] or federal government

[35:26] to purchase these agricultural easements.

[35:31] The purpose of the sushi A LPB is to, it was created

[35:35] by the commissioners in 1989

[35:38] to preserve farmland at the county level in conjunction

[35:41] with the municipality and the state.

[35:44] 15 municipalities have ASAs

[35:47] and a total of total acreage

[35:49] of about 85,000 acres in Centre

[35:52] County countywide.

[35:55] We have 74 preserved farms through the PACE program

[35:59] totaling 9,619 acres

[36:03] and have, we have three farms in process right now totaling

[36:07] just shy of 240 acres.

[36:09] And I have 36 farms

[36:11] or just over 5,000 acres on my wait list.

[36:14] Of the 5,000 acres waiting.

[36:17] 1,131 are in Ferguson Township.

[36:22] So what is an A SA? We have to start at the beginning here.

[36:26] A common misconception.

[36:27] A SA do not regulate

[36:29] or restrict development Harner farm over here.

[36:32] That is now a sheets is still technically in the A SA.

[36:37] They do provide an incentive for farmers

[36:39] to make a long-term commitment to farming.

[36:42] To form an A SA, there must be 250 acres

[36:46] in a municipality or more that wish to enroll.

[36:50] The land can be farmland or woodland

[36:52] and it's protected from local nuisance ordinances

[36:55] and other ordinances that would

[36:56] otherwise restrict farming activities.

[37:00] The purpose is to ultimately be able

[37:02] to apply for the PACE program.

[37:05] The landowner enrollment

[37:07] and removal is completely voluntary.

[37:09] There are no restrictions placed on the land outside

[37:13] of normal municipal ordinances such

[37:15] as Zoning and subdivision.

[37:17] The landowner can sell subdivide

[37:18] or develop as shown by Harner farm over here.

[37:22] It is a general community statement that farming is part

[37:25] of the community and an industry that is embraced

[37:27] through volunteer recognition of prime farmland.

[37:32] So what do I do? The PACE program is purchase

[37:36] of agricultural conservation easement.

[37:39] It is administered by the Department of Agriculture,

[37:42] which contributes money each year.

[37:44] The amount they contribute is calculated based on county

[37:48] farm yields, size of farm and prevalence of preservation.

[37:54] Once clothing closing has occurred,

[37:56] the property is eased in perpetuity.

[37:59] To be eligible, the property must be enrolled in the A SA.

[38:04] The ag security area must be at least 10 acres

[38:08] of tillable land or growing a specialty crop.

[38:13] If it's not adjacent or growing a specialty crop,

[38:16] it must be 50 acres, has to be 50% crop land.

[38:20] If Woodland is not being donated, which is kind

[38:23] of a unique portion of our program in this county,

[38:26] and they have to have a conservation plan

[38:29] through the NRCS by the closing date.

[38:33] So what are some of the impacts on a

[38:35] property enrolled in the PACE program?

[38:37] Farms retain their deed of conservation easement.

[38:40] They're subject to municipal regulations.

[38:43] Just because they're in my program doesn't mean they get

[38:45] to ignore what their Township has to say.

[38:48] They can build one additional resident,

[38:50] they can perform one residential subdivision

[38:54] and can perform one general subdivision,

[38:56] which is greater than 10 acres.

[38:58] Some restrictions they cannot add any new right

[39:01] of ways other than utilities.

[39:03] They cannot develop their property

[39:05] and certain rural enterprises might not be allowed

[39:08] under the restrictions.

[39:10] Some other things that would not be allowed are graveling

[39:13] paving, excavating for rural enterprise.

[39:16] And they're not allowed to take land out

[39:17] of agricultural production like turning a corn field into a

[39:20] gravel lot or building a wedding venue

[39:22] in the middle of that field.

[39:26] So the reason I'm here tonight is this budget season.

[39:30] We have four different pots of funds that we tap into.

[39:36] The first and most impactful is local government unit.

[39:40] This is taken into consideration when a farm is advanced

[39:43] and the municipality would like

[39:44] to support the preservation of the property.

[39:47] They also become a holder of the easement.

[39:51] It is dictated by the municipality.

[39:53] And if a, excuse me, if a municipality would like

[39:57] to pull a farm out of ranked order, they can commit

[39:59] to contributing more funds.

[40:01] This allows a farm to be moved out of order

[40:05] to the top of the list.

[40:06] The lower down farm is the more money

[40:09] the municipality has to contribute.

[40:12] Secondly is county funding this.

[40:14] The county always allocates to $80,000.

[40:17] We also get clean and green rollback taxes.

[40:20] A portion of 'em, the $80,000 is used to contribute $30,000

[40:24] to each farm to help spread out our spending power.

[40:28] And we don't like to see property taken outta clean green.

[40:31] But when it is, the PACE program does benefit.

[40:35] This last year it was just over $27,000.

[40:40] Our non-local funds. Third would be state funding.

[40:43] The state has a very complicated formula to calculate

[40:48] how much money we get available.

[40:50] Funds are defi decided by tobacco purchases, average side

[40:53] of farms, number of farms on our wait list,

[40:56] average appraisal value,

[40:58] national Agricultural Statistics Service,

[41:00] and how much we can contribute as a county.

[41:05] The municipality portion also helps to add into that.

[41:11] And finally we have federal funding,

[41:13] which is reimbursed to the county.

[41:16] It's a very large pot of money.

[41:17] Right now I think there's more than

[41:18] $10 million waiting to be spent.

[41:22] They must meet the NRCS criteria

[41:24] and be willing to go through a longer, more complex process.

[41:28] And the county receives that 50% back at the end

[41:32] of the preservation process.

[41:35] This is a map of all the preserved farms in Centre County.

[41:39] This includes Centre County Farmland Trust,

[41:42] which is the blue

[41:44] that you see mostly out in Penns Valley area.

[41:47] The orange is Clearwater Conservancy.

[41:51] The very bright green is Half Moon Township Open Spaces.

[41:54] Purple is Patent Township Open spaces.

[41:58] And all of those red parcels are the pace parcels.

[42:01] Those are the ones that are preserved through the county.

[42:03] And subject to the guidelines that we have,

[42:08] This is how Ferguson Township looks.

[42:10] That's pretty spectacular. Everything in red there is

[42:12] preserved in perpetuity

[42:14] and they get inspected every year to make sure

[42:16] that we're not building a new housing

[42:18] development on the slide.

[42:21] So Ferguson Township does have like 50%

[42:26] of all of our preserved farms, which is spectacular.

[42:32] I just threw in some graphs so that we could see

[42:35] the total acreage and how it compares.

[42:39] Go ahead. So Ferguson Township has a total

[42:43] of just shy of 5,000 acres

[42:46] in the PACE program.

[42:49] The next closest is Potter at just shy of two.

[42:52] So there's, you know, a 3000 acre difference there

[42:57] for the East Acres Potter Township

[42:59] or Ferguson Township has 4,400

[43:02] and the next closest is Potter at 1800.

[43:08] For the total acres preserved 2021 to present.

[43:12] That seems like a really arbitrary timeline.

[43:15] We calculate our acreage in five year increments.

[43:19] So it would be 2015 to 2020

[43:22] and then 2021 to 2026.

[43:26] So Ferguson, since 2021, has 1,129

[43:31] and the next closest is half Moon at 250.

[43:37] Finally, the East Acres 2021 to present,

[43:40] Ferguson has 705

[43:42] and the next closest is Potter at 204.

[43:51] So just for demonstration purposes here

[43:55] in 2023, Ferguson Township preserved three farms,

[43:58] 24, 25, 26, and 27.

[44:01] It will all be one farm a year.

[44:03] Since 1999, Ferguson Township has contributed

[44:08] just over half a million dollars to preserver preservation.

[44:11] Through my program, you have 38 farms.

[44:15] The total monies spent to preserve these farms comes out

[44:19] to over $12 million.

[44:22] Ferguson Township has a history

[44:23] of contributing anywhere from zero to $200,000 for a farm

[44:29] Up and coming properties.

[44:32] As a note. Number one is actually the one in progress.

[44:35] Number two, the outnumbered one is currently number

[44:38] one on our ranked list.

[44:40] So in order number one is J Roy Campbell.

[44:43] The parcel that is not preserved so far,

[44:45] number two is Marian Sheridan.

[44:48] Number six is Amanda Auer.

[44:50] Number seven is Paul and Paula Johnston.

[44:53] 11 is Robert and Nicole stocks 12 is the rider farm.

[44:57] One of their many 21 and 24 are Dale

[45:02] and Sarah Bressler.

[45:04] And number 35 is the David Burett trust.

[45:12] So if you found this interesting,

[45:13] there's a QR code takes you to my ag page.

[45:16] It's an interactive page.

[45:18] I also currently have two vacancies on my board.

[45:21] If anyone wants to come hang out with me the fourth Thursday

[45:24] of the month at six 30 we have a virtual option also.

[45:29] I have business cards, I've got pamphlets, I've got flyers.

[45:33] I can leave them here if anyone's interested.

[45:37] And I flew through that. But does anyone have any questions?

[45:43] - Mr. Heller? - Ms. Perone.

[45:45] Bruce, thank you again for this. I do have just a question.

[45:48] What else can we be doing?

[45:50] Fortunately, as you noted in 2024, we did add 603 acres

[45:54] to the ag security area, which was huge.

[45:57] Yeah. So what more

[46:00] - The next is money and everyone ever needs more money.

[46:04] - Sure, - Sure. So that's consistently,

[46:08] you guys have approved a hundred dollars an acre

[46:12] contributing more per acre would help

[46:14] stretch the money further.

[46:17] I realize that's, that's an ask.

[46:19] I mean everyone needs more money. But

[46:21] that's, that's the next step.

[46:25] - Thank you for kind of bringing it home for that.

[46:28] As you're right, this is the beginning

[46:29] of budget season for a lot of us.

[46:31] Not only in the municipality but in COG and everything else.

[46:34] So thank you for being clear

[46:37] with the ask. I appreciate that.

[46:39] - Okay,

[46:45] - Any other questions?

[46:47] - Okay, - Well thank you so much.

[46:49] And I, I, I, I thought the number was still about 50%

[46:53] and yeah, that's like astounding.

[46:56] I, I was actually surprised a few weeks ago I heard somebody

[46:58] saying, I don't think Ferguson Township has

[47:00] an ag preservation program.

[47:02] I'm like, hmm, my might wanna look into that. Yeah.

[47:07] - Thank you guys so much for having me.

[47:08] Have a wonderful evening

[47:10] and I'll probably see you again next week.

[47:11] This is

[47:17] - Mike there?

[47:19] Yeah. Alright, thank you again.

[47:24] Let's see, we got the, this

[47:26] - Meeting is being recorded and summarized.

[47:29] - We got the department reports and then EMS funding

[47:33] and then two Consent Agenda items.

[47:35] Before our discussion on the ADUs

[47:38] and the automated license plate readers,

[47:41] did staff have anything in their department

[47:43] reports that they wanted to point out?

[47:45] - Just one thing that came out today.

[47:47] There is a drinking water boil alert

[47:50] for the Rock Springs area.

[47:52] The Township has posted America's waters press release on

[47:56] the website just for notes.

[48:00] They'll have non-potable water tanker

[48:02] and bottle drinking water at the Penn State Ag property.

[48:06] 27 10 West Pine Grove Road.

[48:10] They should be on site as of 6:00 PM I was notified

[48:14] that they will be staffing that 24 7 oh emergency services,

[48:18] including the fire department

[48:19] and our emergency management personnel

[48:21] through the county have been notified.

[48:23] So there is an extra tank tanker on site just

[48:28] for fire suppression should be needed. Alright,

[48:30] - Good to know.

[48:32] - That's all I have. Okay.

[48:34] - Any questions on the department reports? No. Okay.

[48:39] Think we're good? Thank you Mr. Obenski.

[48:41] Next we'll go to unfinished business.

[48:43] We got the discussion authorization for increased funding

[48:46] for emergency medical services EMS and fire services.

[48:50] And I'll recognize the manager again.

[48:52] - Thank you Mr. Chair. That's the last meeting.

[48:55] September four. First the board Supervisors had an agenda

[48:58] item with an increased funding to Port Matilda EMS

[49:04] that was tabled due to a concern from one

[49:08] of the board members that we have other organizations

[49:10] that we donate to potentially that have

[49:16] a larger role in

[49:18] supporting Township emergency services.

[49:22] I brought up that we do have funding for four

[49:27] volunteer agencies, port Matilda EMS Center, EMS,

[49:31] port Matilda Fire and Warrior's.

[49:33] Mark, they're currently earmarked at $3,000 each.

[49:37] The request for this evening is if the board would consider

[49:42] updating that donation amount to each of those four

[49:44] to $5,000 beginning in 2026.

[49:48] And with budget season approaching here next month,

[49:51] we can determine whether

[49:52] that funding should be carried forward, increased,

[49:55] or revisited.

[49:56] So there's a recommended motion

[49:58] that the board authorized the increased annual funding

[50:00] for those four agencies listed from $3,000

[50:05] to $5,000 beginning in 2026.

[50:08] And those donations have not gone out as of yet.

[50:12] - Okay. I have a motion on this item.

[50:18] - This is Trevor. I'll make the motion as

[50:19] - Written.

[50:20] And do we have a second? This is Patty. I'll second. Okay.

[50:22] Got a motion by Mr. White, second by Ms. Stephens.

[50:26] Any questions? I'll go to Mr. White.

[50:29] - I'm assuming it says beginning in 2026

[50:31] because those, the money has not been sent

[50:33] out yet. Not because it is

[50:34] - A typo cor Correct. Okay.

[50:36] - That's it. Yeah. Mr. Heller,

[50:40] - I might offer maybe an alternative here

[50:42] and just say instead of beginning in 2026

[50:46] instead 4 20 26, we have a lot of other budget pressures

[50:50] that are gonna be hitting us next year

[50:52] that I'm learning even more about from the COG budget

[50:54] hearings and everything else.

[50:56] I, I'd like to, I'd like this to maybe come back

[50:58] to us again next year if we need to.

[51:01] - So Mr. Hall,

[51:02] we would be in the budget discussion this year.

[51:04] This year. So, so we, right. So,

[51:05] - So yeah.

[51:06] - So we can make that change this year. I will have a note.

[51:09] Todd will have it on his records

[51:11] that we will bring this up in this discussion obviously

[51:14] for budget 2027

[51:16] - Then to offer clarity.

[51:17] I, I think the word for is an important one instead

[51:20] of beginning, which means to me no end.

[51:23] Okay. So I would make that, I would offer that

[51:27] as an amendment to switch the word beginning to four.

[51:30] - This is Patty. I'll - Second that amendment on motion

[51:33] by made, made by Mr.

[51:34] Heller. Second by Ms. Stephens.

[51:36] All those in favor of the amendment say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.

[51:41] Okay. Aye. So we're debating the amended motion.

[51:49] Any further discussion on that?

[51:54] Yeah, I was gonna say good

[51:56] with the increased allocation for 2026.

[52:00] Look forward to further budget discussions.

[52:04] As far as I understand in the historical context, we've kind

[52:07] of just basically named a contribution.

[52:10] But it would be kind of nice if there was like some type

[52:12] of metric or measure to kind of maybe

[52:17] be some type of formula

[52:19] to maybe make the funding more fair and equitable.

[52:23] Because again, port Matilda is a small system center,

[52:26] lifelink a much larger system.

[52:28] But we all know emergency services, you know,

[52:32] it's at this point, you know it's gonna take all of us.

[52:36] And we even mentioned the last meeting,

[52:37] even our state partners to realize

[52:42] we gotta support our emergency services a lot more.

[52:45] So just

[52:47] - We can bring you some data back as yeah,

[52:49] how many responses to Township for

[52:52] this current year to help decide about next year's budget.

[52:56] - Okay. Any further discussion on this one?

[53:03] You just need a voice vote on this Mr. Yes. Okay.

[53:07] All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Say no.

[53:11] Okay. Motion passes.

[53:14] We have two items on our Consent Agenda.

[53:16] We got an authorization of an agreement

[53:17] with McCormick Taylor

[53:19] for the Valley Vista Drive corridor study in the amount

[53:22] of $34,092

[53:24] and a microservices contract pay application.

[53:29] If no board members wanna pull any of those items,

[53:33] I take a motion to approve the Consent Agenda. This

[53:35] - Is Trevor. So moved. This is Patty.

[53:37] - I'll second. I got a motion by Mr. White, second by Ms.

[53:40] Stephens. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed?

[53:43] Say no. Alright. Next step will be a board member discussion

[53:47] request on the modification

[53:49] to accessory dwelling unit A DU definition.

[53:52] And before I hand it over to Mr. White,

[53:55] any remarks from the manager?

[53:58] Nope. Just open here. Discussion, right?

[54:00] You wanna take it from here? Yeah,

[54:01] - So I'll, I'll be quick on this since I know a lot

[54:04] of people don't really care about tiny homes in a backyard.

[54:07] So an accessory dwelling unit as we define it right now,

[54:10] is authorized to house people that are related by blood

[54:14] or marriage or housekeeper or horticultural services.

[54:19] And so my proposed change to the definition is

[54:21] to remove those restrictions

[54:23] and allow anybody to reside in an accessory dwelling unit.

[54:26] Because I don't think it is our role to say

[54:28] who can reside in what type of construction.

[54:31] And that I have a recommended definition, which attached

[54:35] with it is visual diagrams

[54:38] that point out the different types

[54:40] of accessory dwelling units.

[54:41] So you don't have to just sit here

[54:42] and read through our boring code, you can look at it

[54:44] and say, oh, this is what an A DU is.

[54:47] And so that is why I'm proposing a definition change.

[54:50] I don't know the right mechanism, like if we need

[54:53] to send this to the planning commission for them to review

[54:56] and then that to come back to us, so be it.

[54:58] But yeah, I'm, that's all I got.

[55:03] - I was gonna say we, we could field

[55:04] that question with the manager.

[55:05] I, I recall from our discussion back in,

[55:09] I think it was last fall,

[55:11] there was a discussion about taking the matter of ADU

[55:16] to the planning commission.

[55:17] So I guess that would be something for the manager

[55:20] and the planning and Zoning director to look at

[55:25] and come back to the board with, you know,

[55:27] what options we would have.

[55:29] There is no proposed action

[55:31] and I just as simply a discussion, but Okay.

[55:34] - I believe - Kim has a Okay.

[55:35] Looks I will recognize the planning

[55:37] and Zoning director. Thank

[55:38] - You.

[55:39] If you, you do send that to the planning commission,

[55:42] I'd ask if you could just clarify a little bit,

[55:44] are you only looking at the definition?

[55:46] Are you looking at the districts in which they're allowed

[55:48] or looking at what type of ADUs?

[55:50] Like just narrow it for us.

[55:53] - Yeah, I was gonna say actually, so in my attachments,

[55:57] I'll pulling it up.

[55:59] Sorry, one second. So all the way down.

[56:04] So the attachment that I have pulls the definition

[56:07] directly from the Borough of Phoenixville,

[56:09] which is a municipality in Chester County.

[56:11] And all I would be asking for is for us

[56:14] to change the definition of our accessory dwelling units

[56:17] to match that with the caveat

[56:22] where it says single family dwelling,

[56:24] that it just says principal dwelling instead

[56:26] of principal single family dwelling.

[56:27] Because that's attaching an A DU to a specific type.

[56:30] And you know, again, we're just trying

[56:33] to broaden the definition and that,

[56:35] or I say we, I am trying to broaden the definition

[56:38] and I believe that that is in the best interest

[56:40] of individual property owners and the Township at large.

[56:43] So just the definition for now is what I'm asking

[56:46] for. Does that clarify it?

[56:51] - Yeah. And then a along with that,

[56:54] we've talked about this a couple times,

[56:56] so intents been discussed,

[57:00] but it does help if we have some kind of nexus

[57:04] if it does go back to the planning commission

[57:06] so we know kind of more about

[57:07] what problem we're trying to solve.

[57:09] - Hmm. Ah yes. The problem that we're trying to solve is

[57:11] that by defining an A DU

[57:13] and saying that only people that are married

[57:15] or related to you by blood can live in it

[57:17] and only your housekeeper

[57:18] and gardener can live in it,

[57:20] we're effectively limiting the supply to be non-existent

[57:23] because who has a gardener living with them these days?

[57:26] This is not the 1940s.

[57:28] And also like we can

[57:31] accessory dwelling units are often called in-law suites,

[57:34] but we're really only, as we define it, we are only saying

[57:37] that that is, that is the only acceptable use.

[57:40] And so what the we'll say intent is, is

[57:43] to expand individual property rights here

[57:46] and to allow property owners to do

[57:48] what they want with their property.

[57:51] I'm not at this time making a recommendation

[57:54] that we expand the districts that they're permitted in

[57:56] because I understand that there are ongoing concerns about,

[57:59] we'll say like water and sewage capacity.

[58:01] And so as those conversations develop,

[58:04] then we can start having larger conversations about

[58:06] what type of districts we want ADU to be in.

[58:09] Because right now accessory dwelling units are only

[58:11] permitted outside of the regional growth boundary.

[58:13] So if you take all of that into consideration right now,

[58:16] accessory dwelling units are very, very, very, very,

[58:19] very limited in their potential supply.

[58:22] So this definition gets us

[58:23] to potentially expand the housing supply at the,

[58:26] at the margins, expand individual property rights

[58:29] and really just make this Township like less

[58:31] restrictive for property owners.

[58:34] - Okay. I believe they're allowed in the ttd. Yep.

[58:36] At the moment. That's

[58:38] - Right.

[58:39] I always forget about that one. Sounds about

[58:39] - Right.

[58:40] And I believe that direction is a little bit broader. Okay.

[58:43] So we could look at that. But I also

[58:45] fear this not taking a no position.

[58:48] Yeah. But looking for strong direction that this

[58:53] could expand into a number of conversations.

[58:56] Like off the bat you quickly get into the

[58:59] short term rental discussion.

[59:00] Oh yes. And then another one that's kind of been a long term

[59:05] kind for me, if you have a single family lot

[59:10] that, so that matches our definition.

[59:13] If you have an accessory dwelling unit, you somebody

[59:16] that's related by blood

[59:17] or somebody that is employed for something that is related

[59:20] to maintaining the property.

[59:22] Housekeeping, something about horticulture

[59:24] and I think there was one other item

[59:26] that was in our definition as well.

[59:27] Which, which which makes sense when you introduce

[59:32] a second family with

[59:34] or without time limits, is that still single family?

[59:39] But I also bring that up as a, it seems like it should be,

[59:43] on one hand it's obvious.

[59:44] On the other hand, if you look at

[59:47] American Planning Association has some guidance on it.

[59:48] There's been national legislation on it.

[59:51] There's been a a RP has mentioned a number of things on it.

[59:54] The line is starting to get blurred,

[59:57] but that moves the conversation.

[59:58] I'm just kind of predicting how this will go. Yeah.

[1:00:01] That moves that conversation a little bit into,

[1:00:04] if you buy into a neighborhood with an expectation, ah,

[1:00:08] and then that change itself.

[1:00:10] - And that's my, like I, I will always,

[1:00:12] and this is not against you

[1:00:13] 'cause I know like I will never buy into that argument

[1:00:18] because things change over time

[1:00:20] and that's just how life works.

[1:00:22] If you buy into a neighborhood, a neighborhood is going

[1:00:25] to change as families move out, families move in,

[1:00:27] people do home renovations,

[1:00:29] the character is going to change over time.

[1:00:31] And this is part of it.

[1:00:34] And I would actually make the argument

[1:00:35] that the economic realities of our circum, of our, well

[1:00:39] the economic realities that a lot

[1:00:40] of us face would necessitate us expanding the

[1:00:43] potential housing options.

[1:00:44] Which is why at this point I think just addressing the

[1:00:47] familial aspect in the occupational aspect

[1:00:50] is a starting point.

[1:00:52] - Fair. And just along the lines of just looking for

[1:00:56] additional guidance.

[1:00:59] Yeah. So when I say, you know, you're buying in with

[1:01:03] that expectation, sometimes in an Ordinance it'll say

[1:01:06] something like, if a certain percentage Yeah.

[1:01:09] Then that's only for existing established neighborhoods.

[1:01:13] I think those are all, so it's, it's part of how, how broad

[1:01:17] and I will leave that back to the board

[1:01:22] and, and the manager.

[1:01:24] But where we, as you know, we're looking at all

[1:01:26] of the Ordinance and we just looked at data centers last

[1:01:31] night that poked into a whole lot

[1:01:32] of other parts of the code.

[1:01:34] So very open to looking at whatever we're directed

[1:01:38] to, to look at.

[1:01:39] But I also see that quickly becoming

[1:01:41] a very big conversation.

[1:01:42] So any guidance

[1:01:43] that you can give us upfront is what I'm looking for.

[1:01:45] Yeah,

[1:01:47] - I guess so.

[1:01:48] You wanna see what Mr. Heller has to say

[1:01:50] - And if I may,

[1:01:51] and I think that's, you know, two different approaches

[1:01:53] to the conversation and I appreciate the,

[1:01:55] the small step in looking at okay,

[1:01:58] do we expand out essentially who can occupy?

[1:02:01] That's a great start. I have additionally,

[1:02:04] I think there are six different things

[1:02:05] that I've outlined in an email on things I would love

[1:02:08] to see in the planning commission to address that.

[1:02:11] Really, I think get to the point that you might be asking

[1:02:13] for of what else

[1:02:14] because you're beginning, while we're all connecting these

[1:02:17] dots and these points, I don't know the best way

[1:02:19] that staff would like me to convey these

[1:02:22] or publicly have it.

[1:02:23] Maybe tonight we just say this is the first step

[1:02:26] and then the email or the recommendations are also reviewed.

[1:02:30] I don't know what we do to maybe get this moved forward

[1:02:33] to expand the conversation so we also don't lose momentum.

[1:02:36] Yeah. On the big picture while we're focusing on, well

[1:02:41] who should this really be applied to?

[1:02:43] So I don't know, and I'm looking

[1:02:45] for guidance from staff on the best way to proceed with

[1:02:47] - That.

[1:02:48] I, I can definitely share Mr.

[1:02:49] Heller's thoughts with the email that he shared with myself

[1:02:53] to, with Kim.

[1:02:56] And then again if it's appropriate with the board,

[1:03:01] if you're fine with the manager

[1:03:03] and Kim meeting with Trevor to maybe take this offline

[1:03:06] and get a little bit more nuanced

[1:03:11] to what they ask is Perfect.

[1:03:13] - Good. Thank you. And I

[1:03:15] - Trust and, and with you as well, Mr.

[1:03:16] Heller, like we sure happy to any, any supervisor

[1:03:19] that wishes to, to kind

[1:03:20] of give us some input offline, I think Sure.

[1:03:22] That would help myself and Kim to understand Yeah.

[1:03:26] How we can keep it as focused as possible and,

[1:03:28] and not go down all of those side roads.

[1:03:31] - That's precisely it.

[1:03:32] And I think this maybe sets up some guide rails. Yes.

[1:03:36] So we're not just looking at the very first step,

[1:03:38] but also what's, what's coming down the road

[1:03:40] and what do we need to consider.

[1:03:41] And I have a, I've always been a proponent

[1:03:44] of you send these things to committee

[1:03:46] so you send these things to the planning commission

[1:03:48] to have the leadership there and the volunteers

[1:03:51] and members really lean into this

[1:03:53] and asking them to, to step into this.

[1:03:55] So that's what I would like

[1:03:57] to see is, you know, the next step.

[1:03:58] And I'm, again, happy to meet

[1:03:59] and provide additional context on the general

[1:04:02] discussion with Mr. White and others. Perfect.

[1:04:05] - Thank you. And thank you for allowing some input and

[1:04:08] - Feedback.

[1:04:09] Absolutely. I was gonna say, Trevor, you wanted

[1:04:11] to ask any other board members

[1:04:13] or even entertain any Public Comment? Yeah, I

[1:04:15] - Was about to Public Comment on this is more than welcome.

[1:04:18] I I love to hear about what folks have

[1:04:20] to say about accessory dwelling units.

[1:04:22] 'cause it's often a, we'll say like a hot button issue.

[1:04:24] Yeah. So yeah, if anybody has anything to say about it,

[1:04:28] I welcome it.

[1:04:29] Even if the question is, what are you talking about?

[1:04:33] - I'll let you, I'll let you pick if you, if you,

[1:04:35] if you don't mind, you know, since it is your item Yeah.

[1:04:39] Get, get a, get a little mini experience as the chair

[1:04:44] - Mark Kunkel Ferguson Township.

[1:04:47] You know, I appreciate the opportunity to have a discussion

[1:04:52] about this topic.

[1:04:54] I think that it is, it's probably timely,

[1:04:58] but I think it's a solution in search

[1:05:00] of a problem, to be honest with you.

[1:05:05] Some questions that I'd be interested in knowing

[1:05:07] what district Heller's questions are.

[1:05:09] So the public has some direction on that.

[1:05:12] That would be, you know, helpful I think.

[1:05:14] So we're not covering a similar ground,

[1:05:17] but the question I would have is

[1:05:22] if this, if this is implemented,

[1:05:25] will this override covenants

[1:05:27] and homeowner association limitations, et cetera.

[1:05:31] I mean those are, those are rights that

[1:05:34] property owners have purchased their properties

[1:05:37] under those assumptions.

[1:05:39] So given the number

[1:05:41] of homeowners associations we have in this Township

[1:05:45] and certainly the number of de covenants

[1:05:47] that I think people buy property under this is very gonna

[1:05:51] limit the opportunity to do anything of this nature on,

[1:05:55] on a lot of properties within the regional growth boundary.

[1:06:02] Yeah, I think it was mentioned.

[1:06:03] What concerns do does the Township have with regard to

[1:06:07] capacity of our infrastructure?

[1:06:10] Sewer systems are set up based upon the density

[1:06:13] that we're anticipating in Zoning districts.

[1:06:17] Adding additional capacity

[1:06:20] is not probably a, an option.

[1:06:22] And adding additional load to those systems

[1:06:28] probably would be on wise.

[1:06:32] Another question would be, has anybody consulted

[1:06:35] with the realtors on what this does to property values?

[1:06:39] If I purchased a, a home in a neighborhood

[1:06:42] that was single family

[1:06:43] and you know, I've, it's the largest investment of my life.

[1:06:48] Having a, a dwelling built

[1:06:52] or added to another structure adjacent to my property.

[1:06:56] Well, what is the impact on, on me

[1:06:59] and what is the value of my property based upon that,

[1:07:03] that second dwelling being installed.

[1:07:06] And finally, I think it'd be informative to find out

[1:07:09] what other Big 10 schools are doing.

[1:07:13] You know, we're, we're not phoenixville.

[1:07:17] We've got a very unique situation here in Happy Valley with

[1:07:22] sporting events and cultural events,

[1:07:25] student housing issues, et cetera.

[1:07:28] And so, Airbnbs, short term rentals, et cetera,

[1:07:33] these are all problems that

[1:07:36] I think our municipalities in the Centre Region are

[1:07:38] wrestling with right now.

[1:07:41] To add to that problem, this may be,

[1:07:43] there may be unintended consequences to this type

[1:07:47] of initiative.

[1:07:49] So just questions at this point in time.

[1:07:51] But I look forward to opportunity

[1:07:53] to have the planning Commission really

[1:07:55] delve into this a lot deeper and,

[1:07:59] and be careful of what actions are taken

[1:08:02] and what the unintended consequences might be.

[1:08:07] Thank you, mark. Yes, Mr. Heller,

[1:08:11] - Or to Mr.

[1:08:12] Kunkel point, I'm happy

[1:08:13] to have the email I sent entered into the record for future,

[1:08:17] so at least the, the public can see.

[1:08:19] Yeah, those comments too. So

[1:08:20] - We, we will attach that when it comes time for,

[1:08:22] thank it, to go in front of planning.

[1:08:24] I, I will caution the board that I prefer to work

[1:08:27] through the data center Ordinance

[1:08:28] that we're nearing the end first

[1:08:29] before we, yeah, that's lump another

[1:08:34] topic that is going to take a considerable amount

[1:08:38] of staff time and planning commissioned input.

[1:08:41] - Okay. I'm fine with that, Mr. Chair.

[1:08:43] - Yeah, I, I'm, I'm good with that as well.

[1:08:46] And I, I was actually looking back, I, we did discuss,

[1:08:49] I believe it was your email as well as a email

[1:08:52] that came forward from Ms.

[1:08:54] Stephens on August 5th, 2025 on this matter.

[1:08:58] And there was even a, an email when Mr. White was running

[1:09:02] for office that was entered into the record as well when he

[1:09:07] publicly participated in that discussion.

[1:09:08] So yeah, we can

[1:09:11] - Make that part of the board packet.

[1:09:12] - Yeah, you bring that back to the board packet

[1:09:14] or just to give people, you know,

[1:09:16] reference point if you wanted to kind of see

[1:09:17] how the discussion of ADUs has evolved in Township.

[1:09:21] So Mr. Patterson online.

[1:09:26] - Yeah, I just, just one comment in all this.

[1:09:29] I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time here.

[1:09:32] I know I've been asking, I think,

[1:09:35] regularly in these meetings are we, you know, do we have

[1:09:42] any items to, you know, update in our, in our Ordinance?

[1:09:45] And, and I think the response was regularly, like

[1:09:49] we may have a few coming soon

[1:09:51] and we haven't seen anything since last year.

[1:09:53] So I think that's, that's my ask is

[1:09:55] that like just doing one thing,

[1:09:57] which is the data center Ordinance is not enough folks.

[1:10:00] We, we really, my ask is that we, we, you know, the three

[1:10:03] or four or five items that we've been working on for now

[1:10:05] for the last year, let's,

[1:10:07] let's get 'em all out there please.

[1:10:08] So that we can, you know, adjust those things that are,

[1:10:11] that are not, you know, fully there for us over.

[1:10:14] - And, and if I may, Kim

[1:10:17] and her staff are going through all of the Zoning

[1:10:20] and Aldo ordinances.

[1:10:22] She's been keeping me apprised that she's going

[1:10:25] through the all of the codes

[1:10:27] and slowly working through the edits

[1:10:30] that she can at her level.

[1:10:32] So that is in progress.

[1:10:35] - Okay. - I was gonna say,

[1:10:37] you wanna continue Public Comment?

[1:10:38] - Absolutely.

[1:10:45] - Hi everyone. Thank you for the time.

[1:10:47] Ben Lambert, Ferguson Township, I'm out on Gates by Road.

[1:10:50] So I think we have two issues here

[1:10:52] and I don't wanna necessarily conflate them,

[1:10:55] although they certainly come together.

[1:10:57] One is a basic equality around the definition of

[1:11:01] who can be involved in these dwellings.

[1:11:03] In my hearing of the current statute, it could be read

[1:11:07] as discriminatory.

[1:11:09] And I think that's one thing Mr. White is looking at there.

[1:11:13] Secondly, with PA House Bill 2186

[1:11:17] around accessory dwellings, there is no point on moving

[1:11:20] that in a really meaningful way other than planning

[1:11:23] and anticipating what may come down.

[1:11:26] Because otherwise you're legislating something

[1:11:28] that will be overridden based, you know,

[1:11:30] to a certain extent based on the Commonwealth 2186.

[1:11:33] So as you all, maybe we want to get this in commission,

[1:11:36] maybe you want to spend time on it, that's awesome.

[1:11:39] Be smart about it. There's a lot

[1:11:41] of other things you could be spending your time on.

[1:11:43] Understanding that if 2186 comes through

[1:11:46] and changes the accessory to dwelling statutes statewide,

[1:11:50] you've invested a lot of money into something

[1:11:52] that is ultimately not fruitful.

[1:11:54] So to Mr. White's point, I think there is a reasonable

[1:11:58] argument to talk about the equality, equality

[1:12:00] of the statement of who may be in

[1:12:03] housed in an accessory dwelling without ultimately affecting

[1:12:07] overall Ferguson Township planning and deployment.

[1:12:10] Understanding I have a larger property,

[1:12:13] I could very easily deploy a very large accessory dwelling,

[1:12:17] having just worked through other things with Kimberly,

[1:12:21] you know, on a garage and barn.

[1:12:23] So understanding that, having just gone through it,

[1:12:26] I would just advise a little bit of caution about the time

[1:12:29] invested versus what may come through with how sub 2186.

[1:12:32] That's it. Thank you.

[1:12:34] - Yeah, sorry. Absolutely.

[1:12:37] Do you have the lovely like that, that's

[1:12:38] that lovely little like a-frame that you got built

[1:12:41] recently off of Old Gates?

[1:12:43] Yeah. Great work on that. It's gorgeous. I

[1:12:45] - Couldn't do that very easily.

[1:12:46] Turn that into a large PDUI had spent a lot of time

[1:12:49] with Zoning and planning.

[1:12:51] They were lovely. It's difficult. Yeah.

[1:12:53] But that is something I very much could have delved into

[1:12:57] and there were certainly very valid concerns.

[1:13:00] I have other concerns about my Zoning in the area along

[1:13:04] that, so you probably hear from me in the future

[1:13:06] around what's going on on old gates, et cetera.

[1:13:10] But you know, to the point of just having experienced it,

[1:13:13] there's an equality issue there based on definition.

[1:13:16] And then there's a town county planning understanding

[1:13:19] statewide changes

[1:13:21] that I think context contextualizing helps. Yeah,

[1:13:25] - Absolutely.

[1:13:26] Thank you so much.

[1:13:27] - Yes, Mr. Heller. - Shout out to staff again.

[1:13:30] I like that in the record. They were lovely.

[1:13:33] That, I think that's a wonderful quote Yes.

[1:13:34] From the evening. So thank you to Pat. Yep. Thank you.

[1:13:38] Great.

[1:13:40] - And yeah, thank you for the heads up on that house Bill.

[1:13:43] Un unfortunately Mr. White, even

[1:13:45] before my time I've seen this board want

[1:13:48] to bring something forward and then the state

[1:13:50] legislature stifle

[1:13:53] - Or - Change up plans that we've had

[1:13:55] to put things on pause.

[1:13:57] So, and I have been definitely something to keep in mind.

[1:14:00] - I have been expressing support for HB 2 180 6.

[1:14:05] I think it's a, well if, if we're thinking of the same one

[1:14:07] where it's permitted by right.

[1:14:08] And all. Yeah. Where all single family homes are permitted.

[1:14:11] Yeah. That's a great house bill.

[1:14:15] Yeah, I'll, I'll just leave it at that. Okay.

[1:14:18] - Just wanna see if we have anyone other Public Comment,

[1:14:20] either in the room or online.

[1:14:23] Otherwise if, oh

[1:14:33] - Hi, I am Renee White.

[1:14:34] I live in Ferguson Township.

[1:14:36] I just wanna point out that I think the main issue right now

[1:14:39] that we need to focus on is that this language is super,

[1:14:41] super antiquated.

[1:14:43] Even hearing it read out loud, it just reminds me

[1:14:46] of Jim Crow era language

[1:14:48] and we just need to do away with that entirely.

[1:14:51] So starting fresh with ADUs, please take

[1:14:56] that into consideration when

[1:14:57] you're thinking about all of this.

[1:15:01] - Thank you. Anyone else in the room?

[1:15:06] Now I was gonna say Trevor, wanna, I was gonna say,

[1:15:08] I think staff's got everything.

[1:15:09] We can wrap this up. Move on to the next item. Yeah.

[1:15:13] Thank everyone for their patience.

[1:15:14] I know we had a bunch of people here

[1:15:17] to speak on everything tonight, so trying

[1:15:20] to move along as quickly as we can.

[1:15:23] Next step will be a board member discussion request on the

[1:15:26] automatic license plate reader A LPR restrictions.

[1:15:30] And I was gonna say, if the manager has nothing,

[1:15:33] this one will also be orders.

[1:15:35] Mr. White.

[1:15:37] - Okay. Yeah. So I'll start.

[1:15:39] So for those of you who don't know me, I'll,

[1:15:41] right now I'm going through my master's degree program

[1:15:43] for public policy and I've been having

[1:15:46] to read this lovely textbook.

[1:15:48] And so I wanted to start off with a quick quote

[1:15:52] and talk about some of the, we'll say like political culture

[1:15:55] that has been manifested here.

[1:15:57] And so one

[1:15:59] of the political scientists out wide outlay

[1:16:03] outline three different types

[1:16:05] of political cultures within the United States.

[1:16:08] Individualistic, moralistic, and traditionalistic.

[1:16:12] Individualistic political culture emphasizes private

[1:16:15] concerns and views government as a utilitarian device to be,

[1:16:19] to be used to accomplish what the people want.

[1:16:22] The traditionalist political culture takes a paternalistic

[1:16:25] and elitist view of government

[1:16:27] and favors its use to maintain the existing social order.

[1:16:30] Real political power centers in a small segment

[1:16:32] of the population and most are expected

[1:16:35] to be relatively inactive in politics.

[1:16:37] And then third, we have the moralistic political culture,

[1:16:41] which views government as a mechanism

[1:16:42] for advancing the public interest.

[1:16:44] Government service is considered public service,

[1:16:47] more governmental intervention in the economy is accepted

[1:16:49] and there is much public concern about policy issues.

[1:16:52] I wanted to start that off because I see a room full

[1:16:55] of people here tonight and I want

[1:16:56] to help cultivate this moralistic political culture.

[1:17:00] We have people here who have,

[1:17:02] who are very interested in the direction of the policies

[1:17:05] that we set forth, which is why I started the A LPR

[1:17:10] draft Ordinance as it is right now.

[1:17:12] It would ban all automated license plate readers.

[1:17:15] Now that definition is set forth by the, by the A CLU

[1:17:20] and obviously that definition would contain innocuous uses

[1:17:24] like a parking garage.

[1:17:27] A parking garage uses an automated license plate reader like

[1:17:30] at Penn State to let you in.

[1:17:33] A lot of our police vehicles use automated license plate

[1:17:35] readers to, well,

[1:17:37] to read your license plate when they pull

[1:17:39] you over and check your registration.

[1:17:41] There are more innocuous uses.

[1:17:43] And I'm a little upset, Thomas, you stole my thunder.

[1:17:47] Because I do genuinely believe

[1:17:49] that these private companies are

[1:17:51] violating our fourth amendment.

[1:17:52] And not only do I believe it,

[1:17:53] but there was a recent Supreme Court case this year

[1:17:56] that if you just simply change the word from cell signal

[1:18:00] location information to car

[1:18:02] and license plate, it is the exact same thing when you are

[1:18:06] geofencing an area.

[1:18:08] Yeah. And then taking like, well, taking notes of

[1:18:11] who enters, who exits at what time.

[1:18:14] The Supreme Court just ruled that for cell phones,

[1:18:16] you need a warrant to do that.

[1:18:17] That is a search that needs a warrant.

[1:18:20] Flank, axon, Motorola, Leonardo, whatever.

[1:18:24] Their density can be placed in such a way that

[1:18:26] that technology mimics GPS location tracking,

[1:18:30] which again requires a warrant.

[1:18:32] But these entities, you do not need a warrant to access.

[1:18:36] And therefore we have a duty to well take action

[1:18:41] if this Ordinance is not within our authority to enact.

[1:18:45] There are other mechanisms that we can pursue.

[1:18:48] Those other mechanisms would be more expensive

[1:18:50] and would be, we'll say more.

[1:18:53] Mm. It it could, it could go off the rails really fast.

[1:18:57] That's why I wanted to start here with this Ordinance

[1:18:59] because I genuinely believe that we have a duty

[1:19:02] to protect our citizens, our residents,

[1:19:05] and not even just our resident,

[1:19:06] anybody who's just like driving through our Township.

[1:19:09] Because right now these SWAT cameras have been placed in

[1:19:11] such a density that you cannot get onto campus

[1:19:14] without getting tagged by them.

[1:19:16] You cannot opt out.

[1:19:18] And that is not something we want for people just passing

[1:19:21] through our municipality

[1:19:23] or people that live in our municipality

[1:19:24] that have to commute to the campus.

[1:19:26] You are getting put in a database.

[1:19:28] You do not have an option to opt out. It's that simple.

[1:19:31] I think that we in Ferguson have a duty to ban these.

[1:19:36] I don't know if this is the right path,

[1:19:38] but I'm, I wanna hear from the

[1:19:39] public, I want to hear from y'all.

[1:19:40] I wanna hear from staff. I wanna have this discussion

[1:19:42] because this has become a very hot button issue

[1:19:45] and rightfully so

[1:19:47] because we all know in our gut that this is wrong.

[1:19:49] So I'll leave it at that.

[1:19:51] If staff have any inputs, I would love to hear from that.

[1:19:54] Like if there's any updates from the solicitor, all that.

[1:19:59] So yes, I'll recognize the manager. Thank you, Mr.

[1:20:04] Chair. Just from our limited research,

[1:20:07] - I don't believe the Township is, has the authority to

[1:20:12] enact an Ordinance spanning it.

[1:20:14] What the Township can do at the municipal level

[1:20:18] is not permit the uses of flock cameras

[1:20:22] or anything else used by the municipality.

[1:20:25] So if the board wants to

[1:20:31] set a resolution

[1:20:32] or just clearly tell staff that we will not consider any

[1:20:37] of these types of uses that is up to the statute.

[1:20:41] But the solicitor, my initial just research is

[1:20:46] that we can't do an Ordinance

[1:20:47] to prohibit it on private property.

[1:20:50] - Okay. So that leads us to the second option, which is

[1:20:54] that under the home rule charter,

[1:20:55] in the second class municipality code, we have the ability

[1:20:58] to sue and be sued.

[1:21:00] I am making the argument

[1:21:02] that this entity is violating our fourth amendment rights

[1:21:07] if a private entity, not the municipality.

[1:21:09] 'cause if I'm being honest, the municipality is not

[1:21:11] what I'm, I'm not worried about y'all coming to us with a,

[1:21:13] with a, with, with a line item that says, oh,

[1:21:15] flock camera contract.

[1:21:17] Like I, I feel like our staff is,

[1:21:19] has enough situational awareness to, to read the,

[1:21:22] the writing on the wall and see like

[1:21:23] nobody really wants this.

[1:21:25] My concern is that Penn State continues

[1:21:29] to expand their flock cameras into, for example,

[1:21:32] science Park, where they have a lot

[1:21:34] of applied research laboratory facilities.

[1:21:36] Mm. That would actually, like if I'm trying to like,

[1:21:40] have a good faith approach

[1:21:41] and assume that this is for public safety, then putting that

[1:21:45] around a DOD affiliated research facility would probably be

[1:21:48] the next best step for this pilot program.

[1:21:52] So what is like, I guess this is why I thought the,

[1:21:56] you know, like the solicitor was gonna be here.

[1:21:58] Because if that is the case, if

[1:22:03] a private entity is contracting

[1:22:05] with this other private entity

[1:22:07] that are violating our rights, we

[1:22:09] as a municipality have the right to sue.

[1:22:12] Would we therefore have the right to sue that private entity

[1:22:16] for placing flock cameras within our municipality

[1:22:18] and violating our resident's Fourth Amendment rights?

[1:22:24] - I,

[1:22:38] - I don't have an answer. I, yeah,

[1:22:40] - Okay.

[1:22:41] - Yeah. Yeah. I'd have to look

[1:22:42] - Again.

[1:22:43] That's, that's the next step. If we do not have the

[1:22:45] authority to implement an Ordinance,

[1:22:48] and like I said, that opens up a can of worms.

[1:22:51] I don't, I don't think that a lot of our residents want

[1:22:55] to be involved in that, that legal fight.

[1:22:58] But it's also worth noting

[1:23:00] that the last time a consumer PR consumer privacy protection

[1:23:03] bill was signed into law.

[1:23:04] Does anybody, anybody wanna guess when the last time a

[1:23:07] Consumer Privacy Protection Act was signed into law 76,

[1:23:12] ah, you were, you're, you're close.

[1:23:13] 88. 1988, when Robert Bork was nominated

[1:23:18] for the Supreme Court, his videotape rentals were,

[1:23:22] were, were gathered.

[1:23:24] And then in reaction to that, the federal government said,

[1:23:27] no, you cannot get videotape rentals.

[1:23:30] And that's the last time

[1:23:32] that we've had any protection for privacy.

[1:23:34] So here we are almost 40 years later

[1:23:37] and look at the state effects, right?

[1:23:39] It's gotten to the point where the cameras

[1:23:42] are now being placed in such a density that it mimics

[1:23:46] a search on our phone, which again,

[1:23:48] like the Supreme Court ruled in Carpenter

[1:23:50] and just this year in chat review United States, that

[1:23:53] that constitutes a search.

[1:23:54] It's not like, I don't, I don't think it's that complicated.

[1:23:59] I think that these entities are violating our rights

[1:24:02] and whoever deploys them is opening

[1:24:04] themselves up to liability.

[1:24:08] I don't know, like if, if we have the ability to sue

[1:24:12] and this private entity is violating our

[1:24:14] rights, can we not sue them?

[1:24:17] I like, I, I don't understand. I like,

[1:24:20] - And have to get more, more information.

[1:24:23] I go, I don't even know if we've ever sued anyone.

[1:24:27] - Well, - I mean, anybody can sue

[1:24:29] anybody for anything, right?

[1:24:30] Yeah. And the judge can then throw out what, you know.

[1:24:32] So I think it's sounds like more

[1:24:35] information needs to be gathered.

[1:24:36] Yep. In that particular instance.

[1:24:39] I think it's important, you know, the conversation is good.

[1:24:41] We have a lot of folks here I'm sure are gonna, you know,

[1:24:44] share their thoughts on, and I look forward

[1:24:46] to hearing from them about this.

[1:24:47] I will also say this, there is another side of this

[1:24:50] where I'm hearing from constituents that say this,

[1:24:53] the typical argument of, I'm okay,

[1:24:57] I'm not doing anything wrong.

[1:24:58] You knew I was gonna say that, right?

[1:25:00] Because that is, you know, that's one of the arguments

[1:25:02] that's on the opposite side.

[1:25:03] And I, I understand that.

[1:25:05] So in many ways I, I'm looking forward

[1:25:07] to hearing the Public Comment on both sides, hearing

[1:25:10] what folks are, you know, truly feel about this.

[1:25:12] And then hearing

[1:25:14] what staff recommends is maybe some next steps

[1:25:16] that, that's where I'm at.

[1:25:17] And also, I will say the email

[1:25:19] that is being entered into the record does also include my

[1:25:22] comments and thoughts about the Alps as well,

[1:25:26] especially related to the things

[1:25:27] that we do in the municipality that our officers

[1:25:29] and others might use, et cetera.

[1:25:31] Because I truly believe that I do not want

[1:25:34] to hinder our officer's abilities to do their jobs.

[1:25:37] But that is a separate topic again,

[1:25:39] and I'm trying to separate those two, you know,

[1:25:41] what our officers are doing and flock cameras again.

[1:25:46] So thank you. I look forward to the next conversation.

[1:25:48] - Yeah, I'd open up the floor

[1:25:50] to Public Comment. If nobody had anything,

[1:25:52] - I was gonna say the only thing I would probably bring up

[1:25:54] right now, I, I would be in favor of a resolution

[1:25:57] that captures the sentiment of our community

[1:26:00] and where the board stands.

[1:26:03] I, I know Ms.

[1:26:05] The manager brought this up

[1:26:06] and just considering recent comments from like the governor

[1:26:09] as well as even some chatter in the state legislature of

[1:26:13] bringing proposals forward, I think, you know,

[1:26:16] it would probably be beneficial to have our voice

[1:26:22] take our voices there to show

[1:26:26] where we stand on this matter.

[1:26:29] So agree. Leave it at that.

[1:26:32] - I also think it's important that we work with the COG

[1:26:37] and our COG municipalities as a voice on anything if,

[1:26:41] if we have a unified voice to address

[1:26:46] with Penn State and their use of flock or things like that

[1:26:52] - Afterwards.

[1:26:53] But yeah. Anybody

[1:26:56] - Other board members?

[1:26:57] I was gonna say feel free to open it up. I'll

[1:26:59] - Let you, I'm feeling that's why everybody's here.

[1:27:02] So I think this person had their hand first.

[1:27:14] - Hi, good evening. I'm Helen Rose.

[1:27:16] I'm a Patterson Township resident for about a year.

[1:27:20] And I believe that this opportunity to speak

[1:27:23] to this council is too good of an opportunity to pass up

[1:27:27] on the topic of automatic license plate readers.

[1:27:30] Outside of the moral implications.

[1:27:32] We can talk about the legal implications

[1:27:34] of a system like this.

[1:27:36] In 2012, a case called US v Jones Police attached a tracking

[1:27:41] device to Antoine Jones' car

[1:27:43] and charged him for crimes using his physical location

[1:27:46] as a personal whistleblower brought, he brought this

[1:27:49] before the Supreme Court and the majority found

[1:27:52] that this was unconstitutional.

[1:27:54] And though that founding was based on the physical

[1:27:57] attributes of that case, it set the precedent

[1:28:00] for a few more questions that needed to be answered.

[1:28:02] In following quick cases, if we continue to 2018,

[1:28:07] like Mr. White mentioned, the carpenter versus us

[1:28:09] gathered 127 days of historical self on location data

[1:28:13] to attach his approximate location to several robberies.

[1:28:17] He argued that it was a violation

[1:28:18] of his fourth amendment rights

[1:28:20] to unreasonable search and seizure.

[1:28:22] And the Supreme Court agreed with him establishing

[1:28:24] that this long-term surveillance was

[1:28:26] a constitutional violation.

[1:28:28] This left open the question on whether

[1:28:29] or not the scope determined its unconstitutionality.

[1:28:33] And according to Sanchi versus the US

[1:28:36] where the police investigated a robbery back in 2019

[1:28:39] where police asked Google to supply them

[1:28:41] with all devices present in the, during a one hour window

[1:28:44] to the robbery site, Sanchi was arrested

[1:28:47] for the findings that came from this.

[1:28:49] Ella Sanchi tried to demonstrate

[1:28:51] before the Supreme Court

[1:28:52] that this was an unconstitutional Fourth Amendment search.

[1:28:55] And again, the Supreme Court agreed

[1:28:58] these cases together demonstrate that even a snapshot

[1:29:00] of someone's whereabouts can constitute

[1:29:02] a constitutional violation.

[1:29:05] In conjunction with these automatic readers themselves,

[1:29:07] they can provide actual safety concerns.

[1:29:10] People under no investigation

[1:29:12] or under no suspicion of any crime can be subject

[1:29:14] to unnecessary infringements of privacy.

[1:29:17] At least 50 police officers have been accused

[1:29:20] or charged with the misuse

[1:29:21] of automated license plate readers like flock cameras.

[1:29:24] And according to a recent investigation

[1:29:25] by the Washington Post, at least 46

[1:29:28] of these reports came from flock cameras.

[1:29:30] Specifically a Texas officer searched the nationwide

[1:29:33] database to find a woman who had gotten an abortion.

[1:29:36] And according to the 4 0 4 media police departments

[1:29:39] around the country have used flock cameras at least hundreds

[1:29:41] of times to search for specific people, not cars.

[1:29:44] And using searches such as heavyset male with a black

[1:29:47] and white hat person on skateboard

[1:29:50] and person wearing orange vests

[1:29:52] and construction hat according

[1:29:54] to the data reviewed by 4 0 4.

[1:29:55] Media sometimes searches reference a targets race

[1:29:59] or signs of their political affiliation.

[1:30:02] These sorts of infringements on our privacy

[1:30:05] and constitutional freedoms should be

[1:30:07] protected above all else.

[1:30:09] And even as a non-resident of this specific Township,

[1:30:11] I urge the council to deeply consider

[1:30:14] all resolutions for this matter.

[1:30:16] Thank you.

[1:30:20] - Thank you. Do

[1:30:24] you want to call the next one?

[1:30:25] - Well, I think, I think right it right, right. Oh, okay.

[1:30:29] Yeah, yeah. Right.

[1:30:31] - Is next

[1:30:38] Good evening.

[1:30:38] I'm Ray Ger, I'm from College Township

[1:30:41] and I also spent 35 years in the intelligence community.

[1:30:44] So I can confirm Trevor's assessment

[1:30:47] of the current situation with these particular a LPRs.

[1:30:52] I was also, for the last 20 years of my career,

[1:30:55] I was a senior FISA analyst, FIA Adjudicator.

[1:30:58] FISA, for those of you don't know is a foreign

[1:31:00] intelligence surveillance act.

[1:31:02] And I can confirm that Trevor's assessment of the fact

[1:31:05] that you do need a warrant, a judicial warrant for

[1:31:10] accessing cell phone geo data is absolutely correct

[1:31:16] and it's a pretty involved process.

[1:31:19] So the something else, I'm not, I'm not gonna continue down

[1:31:23] that road, but something else you need to consider here,

[1:31:25] since I worked on the oversight aspect of

[1:31:29] that quite a bit, the oversight aspect

[1:31:34] of this obviously is very flawed.

[1:31:36] We've seen that already with at least two court cases

[1:31:38] with several hundred violations of the use of these cameras.

[1:31:44] And I can tell you from my experience

[1:31:48] for a very long time within the agency, you would be lucky

[1:31:51] to see one per year

[1:31:53] because of the stringent oversight we had for this.

[1:31:56] Because before we put the system in place,

[1:31:59] the oversight system was there.

[1:32:02] It was not only an automated oversight system in order

[1:32:04] to flag anything that looked unusual,

[1:32:07] but it also had a multi-layered manual oversight system

[1:32:11] where individuals like me had to go in

[1:32:14] and look at every single query,

[1:32:16] every single time someone touched this data.

[1:32:19] Didn't matter how that data was touched somehow if somebody

[1:32:23] accidentally clicked on a file that was checked

[1:32:27] and if it was in violation, that person went to jail.

[1:32:31] We know that this system is lax already.

[1:32:35] The oversight system, as I said,

[1:32:39] a system like this requires very, very meticulous oversight

[1:32:43] just from a manning point alone for local law enforcement.

[1:32:48] And I do think Alps do have a very good use

[1:32:51] if used properly.

[1:32:53] However, these systems with their weak oversight are going

[1:32:58] to require that level of oversight.

[1:33:00] And that may very well require you,

[1:33:03] we will require local law enforcement

[1:33:05] to hire additional people, train them up.

[1:33:08] And this is gonna have to be

[1:33:09] continual training, not just once.

[1:33:12] For us it was at least every six months we

[1:33:14] had to redo the training.

[1:33:16] And that training has to keep on being modernized

[1:33:20] as the systems are updated.

[1:33:22] So think of that as well,

[1:33:25] just the oversight mechanism itself

[1:33:28] completely separate from the LPRs.

[1:33:31] You have to deal with that as well.

[1:33:32] So, and I know you have everywhere we have really have a

[1:33:36] hard time hiring police officers,

[1:33:38] law enforcement everywhere.

[1:33:39] So we really need to think that about

[1:33:42] that aspect of it as well. Thank you.

[1:33:44] - Thank you. - Thank you.

[1:33:47] - Yes. Mr. Hall, - Mr. Builder, thank you for that.

[1:33:51] And I will say that the A LPR comments I have here do

[1:33:55] address some of that at the tip of the iceberg

[1:33:57] as maybe some next steps

[1:33:58] that you'll see in the public record.

[1:33:59] So thank you.

[1:34:02] - Just - Gonna say you wanna go online?

[1:34:03] Yeah, we'll go the second row. Yeah. To Kyle.

[1:34:09] - Hey there. So I was just wondering, as far as I'm aware,

[1:34:14] I, I don't know that there are any flock

[1:34:17] or other A LPR camera systems

[1:34:22] of the kind that we are generally speaking concerned about

[1:34:25] currently in Ferguson Township.

[1:34:28] Is that an accurate statement?

[1:34:31] - To my understanding, yes. Which is why I proposed this.

[1:34:36] - Okay, cool. So we're just trying to make sure

[1:34:38] that it stays that way.

[1:34:41] Is there anybody currently that is proposing the

[1:34:44] introduction of those in Ferguson Township?

[1:34:48] - That's the beauty of private entities is we

[1:34:50] don't know until it happens.

[1:34:51] Right. We didn't know

[1:34:53] that Penn State was planning on putting them up

[1:34:55] everywhere until

[1:34:56] - They did.

[1:34:59] - Agreed. Okay, that makes sense.

[1:35:04] So as far as I understand it, most

[1:35:07] of the concerns that we all share around

[1:35:11] A LPR cameras and the way that information is used

[1:35:15] and abused is it's, it's basically around data privacy

[1:35:20] and how the Fourth Amendment hasn't kept up

[1:35:25] with modern data privacy concerns.

[1:35:27] And so I would just say that I feel

[1:35:31] a good data privacy regulation could make a lot

[1:35:35] of this redundant, essentially.

[1:35:39] - I agree wholeheartedly.

[1:35:42] - That's all that I have to say for now. Thank you.

[1:35:44] - Thank you so much. Gonna say, I don't know,

[1:35:47] do we have anyone in the third row?

[1:35:48] I know there's the red shirt. Oh sorry.

[1:35:50] Well the red shirt in the third row.

[1:35:52] I don't think we had anyone in the second row. Alright,

[1:36:03] - I'll introduce myself this way.

[1:36:04] I'm Thomas's dad, Still lived in State College for 27 years

[1:36:09] and in Ferguson Township all of that time.

[1:36:12] And I will start by saying thank you

[1:36:15] 'cause we really have a great community.

[1:36:17] I really think you guys do an excellent job all around.

[1:36:20] We've really enjoyed living here

[1:36:21] and I'm happy to do, try to recruit faculty member join us

[1:36:26] here on the campus community.

[1:36:29] I, I do really do share the concerns though about this.

[1:36:32] So my, I mean, it's hard to kind

[1:36:34] of articulate all the issues here.

[1:36:35] There's clearly the privacy issue that we have

[1:36:37] to worry about and the legal aspect of it.

[1:36:40] But I'm also a professor of kinda,

[1:36:43] I have a PhD in statistics

[1:36:44] and I'm in the business school in,

[1:36:46] you know, doing marketing.

[1:36:48] And so I, I look at this as,

[1:36:51] as a much broader concern than just can it be used to,

[1:36:56] for law enforcement purposes and appropriately.

[1:36:58] I mean, this is gonna be a data set that's gonna be taken

[1:37:01] and these guys who are taking this data set have an

[1:37:03] incentive structure to do a lot more with

[1:37:06] that than just simply to help inform local law enforcement.

[1:37:11] And I think that they track you through the web

[1:37:14] and there's some anonymity, anonymity you can do there,

[1:37:17] but they're gonna try to actually build something equivalent

[1:37:19] to that here.

[1:37:20] And so I personally, where I sit is, I,

[1:37:24] I actually like the idea of justice coming forward.

[1:37:29] I mean there's a, an article you may have seen recently in

[1:37:32] the New York Times about this ice officer

[1:37:34] that shot somebody through a door.

[1:37:36] And the reason they found out

[1:37:38] what really happened was there was a camera

[1:37:41] that was controlled

[1:37:42] and owned by the city that was turned to look at that.

[1:37:46] And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with

[1:37:48] law enforcement having access to these tools.

[1:37:51] I think with the right controls,

[1:37:53] like Ray said, that's appropriate.

[1:37:55] I think it's a big ask though. I don't know.

[1:37:58] We have our law enforcement folks here.

[1:37:59] It's a, it's not a trivial ask.

[1:38:02] And so what is the response from us?

[1:38:04] Well, the response from us might be opening our pocketbook

[1:38:07] up a little bit more and making sure we can actually handle

[1:38:09] that and ex execute that.

[1:38:11] I think that's fine. But I don't want them tracking me

[1:38:16] and having that go into the ad machine that goes around

[1:38:19] and sends me things and sells my information around.

[1:38:23] I, I think that's, we've kind of gotten used to that.

[1:38:25] We sold out to that with the internet

[1:38:27] 'cause of the, the kind of, you know, ease of use

[1:38:31] and the the things we get from the internet from that.

[1:38:34] But we don't have to sell out to that here. Right.

[1:38:38] And then there's a, I don't know if you,

[1:38:39] another little thing if you want to go watch something

[1:38:42] for entertainment is Mr. Bates versus the post office.

[1:38:45] Have you ever seen that movie? No.

[1:38:47] - Who's - That? So this is, my wife is English,

[1:38:50] Thomas is English, he has a English passport

[1:38:53] who I think he maybe has political aspirations here.

[1:38:55] We'll see he was born here so he can,

[1:38:57] he can do the whole shot if he wants to.

[1:39:00] Mr. Bates booth's the post office in the uk.

[1:39:03] And so UK postal systems that's run by one big massive

[1:39:07] central government agency owned by the UK government.

[1:39:10] And then they have all these little franchises

[1:39:12] that run the local post services

[1:39:15] and they hired a large entity, it entity

[1:39:19] to run the books and to manage the books.

[1:39:22] And you find that people were getting arrested

[1:39:24] and they were getting deposed from their positions

[1:39:28] because of accounting errors.

[1:39:29] And then eventually as the story unfolds, it founds out

[1:39:32] that this turns out this big system that was contracted

[1:39:36] to the government but was independent from the government,

[1:39:39] had access to all of the post office's accounts.

[1:39:42] And if there was an error in the accounting,

[1:39:44] they would go on and actually make manipulations.

[1:39:46] They wouldn't disclose it.

[1:39:47] And eventually the auditors would come in

[1:39:49] and they would take these people to court

[1:39:52] and take away their franchises.

[1:39:53] And, and that's the kind of thing that is, it's kind

[1:39:57] of going back to what Ray was saying.

[1:39:58] We don't want, right?

[1:39:59] We, we want to have this with the right oversight.

[1:40:02] So technology's moving fast, it's challenging,

[1:40:06] it's gonna be expensive

[1:40:08] and if we're gonna do this right, we have to step forward.

[1:40:11] So I, I'm actually very supportive of this idea

[1:40:14] of putting some kind of restriction.

[1:40:16] I mean I'd love to see the whole COG community come

[1:40:19] and tell Penn State they can't point their cameras off of,

[1:40:21] it's illegal for them to point their cameras off of campus.

[1:40:23] If they wanna point 'em on campus, fine,

[1:40:25] but don't point 'em on Beaver

[1:40:26] or don't point 'em anywhere else

[1:40:27] and give 'em a big fine and go to court.

[1:40:30] One thing we've learned from our president is you

[1:40:32] can sue anybody in this world.

[1:40:34] We have learned that. Let's take 'em on.

[1:40:37] I'm completely supportive of that.

[1:40:45] - I see one in the second row there.

[1:40:58] - Can you hear me? Yep.

[1:41:01] My name is Karen Dabney

[1:41:03] and I am a park, a Park Forest

[1:41:07] resident on the other side.

[1:41:09] But I drive through on Patton,

[1:41:11] but I drive through Ferguson obviously all the time.

[1:41:18] And I thought since it keeps coming up

[1:41:22] and since this is a crucial issue, why not

[1:41:27] read the fourth Amendment into the record?

[1:41:31] Okay. Alright.

[1:41:33] The right of the people to be secure in their persons

[1:41:38] houses, papers,

[1:41:40] and effects against unreasonable searches

[1:41:44] and seizures shall not be violated.

[1:41:48] And no warrants shall issue,

[1:41:51] but upon probable cause supported by oath

[1:41:55] or affirmation and particularly describing the place

[1:42:00] to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.

[1:42:06] So I believe my understanding of the Fourth Amendment

[1:42:12] is that these types of searches

[1:42:16] without warrants, without probable cause, without

[1:42:21] a specific person or thing to be seized

[1:42:28] is against the Fourth Amendment, which is part

[1:42:32] of our constitution, which is supposed to be the bedrock

[1:42:36] that our country is built on.

[1:42:39] Now the bedrock's getting flexed a lot

[1:42:41] by certain individuals,

[1:42:44] but y'all have the opportunity to push back

[1:42:47] and say, no, this is what we do, this is what we do.

[1:42:53] And if we're not doing this, I work some

[1:42:56] with international people.

[1:42:59] One of my Chinese people said, when I asked,

[1:43:03] what do you like about staying at State College?

[1:43:07] I can say what I want. I can say anything I want.

[1:43:12] Can't do that in China.

[1:43:14] Another one told me, nobody speaks their mind

[1:43:19] because it can be reported.

[1:43:23] There's only one party

[1:43:24] and you wanna be in good standing with them.

[1:43:28] So we could opt for this and keep moving this direction

[1:43:32] and go for that surveillance state that it appears a lot

[1:43:36] of powerful and wealthy people are really keen on.

[1:43:40] Or we could pull back and we could say, no, this is America.

[1:43:44] This is the America we want.

[1:43:46] We want the United States Constitution

[1:43:49] and all of the amendments including the Bill of Rights.

[1:43:54] So thank you so much Mr. White

[1:43:58] and all the rest of you for remembering

[1:44:03] what America has been.

[1:44:04] I have a lot of veterans

[1:44:06] and even active duty military and my family.

[1:44:11] I promise you none of them have fought or are fighting

[1:44:16] and serving for America

[1:44:18] to become a surveillance surveillance state.

[1:44:23] All of our leaders have sworn to uphold the constitution.

[1:44:26] Right? And certainly we can too. Thank you.

[1:44:39] - Anyone else?

[1:44:50] - All right, can you hear me? Yep. All right.

[1:44:53] My name is Laney Vina.

[1:44:54] I'm a Ferguson Township resident over on West College Ave.

[1:44:57] And I wanna thank you all for giving us the opportunity

[1:45:00] to share our concerns.

[1:45:01] I wanna thank you for sharing our concerns.

[1:45:04] This is what representative government is supposed to do.

[1:45:07] So my comment is brief.

[1:45:10] It's not a type of comment that I've created myself.

[1:45:13] It's being shared in

[1:45:13] meetings like this all over the country.

[1:45:16] It's a little game called flock or fiction.

[1:45:18] So I am going to, yeah, it's a tennis meeting.

[1:45:22] We could break that up a little bit.

[1:45:24] I'm going to make a statement

[1:45:26] and then you get to guess if it is a statement referring

[1:45:29] to flock or other license plate reading cameras

[1:45:32] or referring to a fictional piece of entertainment media.

[1:45:36] So first, which

[1:45:37] of the following has us has utilized mass surveillance?

[1:45:40] Is it A the lizard from Spider-Man B,

[1:45:43] jigsaw from Spider-Man or C Flock? Any guesses?

[1:45:48] - Flock. - It's flock. All right.

[1:45:51] Number two, which

[1:45:52] of the following have called their opponents terrorists?

[1:45:56] Is it a Emperor palpatine from Star Wars B President,

[1:46:00] snow from the Hunger Games

[1:46:01] or see Garrett Langley, CEO of flock?

[1:46:05] - Is there an all of the above answer?

[1:46:08] - So you could argue that it's all of the above,

[1:46:10] but the only person to specifically use the word terrorist

[1:46:13] was c Garrett Langley, CEO of flock.

[1:46:16] He referred to the D flock movement

[1:46:18] as terrorists in a 2025 interview with Forbes.

[1:46:22] Question three, which of the following has had a

[1:46:24] 40% inaccuracy rate?

[1:46:27] Is it a, the move sheer cold from Pokemon

[1:46:31] B flock cameras or C flame charge also from Pokemon?

[1:46:37] Again, I didn't write this.

[1:46:38] There are some brilliant people all over the country

[1:46:40] that have shared this online.

[1:46:41] I just thought it was important to echo it here.

[1:46:44] So the answer is, B flock cameras according

[1:46:47] to an independent review of traffic stops caused

[1:46:49] by flock camera alerts in Oak Park.

[1:46:52] 40% of those stops were mistakes due to bad data

[1:46:55] or officer error, emphasis on bad data.

[1:46:59] Question four, which

[1:47:00] of the following completely eradicated

[1:47:02] crime in their country?

[1:47:04] Is it a Dr. Doom from Marvel comics B flock cameras

[1:47:09] or C Clay face from DC Comics?

[1:47:11] - That's, that's a right,

[1:47:13] - It is a doctor two.

[1:47:16] Look at you go. Alright. It is not B flock cameras.

[1:47:20] In a recent article by the Atlanta Community Press

[1:47:22] collective quote,

[1:47:24] despite an eightfold increase in the number

[1:47:26] of cameras integrated into the city's connect Atlanta

[1:47:29] surveillance program, crime clearance rates have not

[1:47:32] meaningfully increased according to data collected

[1:47:34] by the FBI furthermore, sorry, end quote.

[1:47:37] Furthermore, despite an increase in flock cameras,

[1:47:40] the Atlanta Police department's rate of successfully solving

[1:47:43] homicides hit a five year low in 2025.

[1:47:47] So that's the end of the questions.

[1:47:49] I think you got a perfect score.

[1:47:52] I don't really have anything to add

[1:47:53] beyond what's been said already by some very, very

[1:47:56] passionate people, but I just wanted to share those things

[1:47:59] and enter into the record that the CEO of Flock referred to

[1:48:02] as opponents as terrorists in a 2025 interview.

[1:48:06] So thank you again, and I appreciate

[1:48:08] you hearing our concerns.

[1:48:09] - Thank you. Yeah, thank, thank you so much.

[1:48:14] I I, I was gonna say, sometimes I try, well I try

[1:48:17] to be serious just to keep, you know, decorum.

[1:48:19] But you know, you brought up a lot of good points

[1:48:22] and also appreci appreciate the, the, the lightness.

[1:48:26] It, it helps every now

[1:48:27] and then I believe in the Penn State shirt.

[1:48:31] And then I was gonna say we haven't even, we'll get

[1:48:34] to the fourth row next or yeah, the fourth row.

[1:48:44] - So hello again. Ben Lambert Ferguson Township.

[1:48:48] I'm gonna make a completely different argument than I would

[1:48:50] have a number of years ago.

[1:48:53] And it really comes down to I'm raising two children here

[1:48:58] and what kind of place do I want my children to grow up in?

[1:49:03] And I want you to think about your children if you have

[1:49:05] them, your grandchildren,

[1:49:07] and think you about where you want them growing up

[1:49:10] and how you want them to experience this community.

[1:49:13] If you think this community is a place

[1:49:16] where we should be ha be policing rather than taking care

[1:49:19] of community policing with our wonderful officers

[1:49:22] and all the people of the community, versus leveraging

[1:49:27] artificial intelligence driven cameras to attempt

[1:49:30] to solve problems that probably don't exist

[1:49:33] or they exist in a very low frequency in this community.

[1:49:37] We're not thinking about this the right way.

[1:49:39] So this is where I'm taking a different tone

[1:49:42] or tenor than I would as a civil libertarian in my past.

[1:49:47] And I'm going

[1:49:48] to take a completely different argument about every single

[1:49:51] family living in this community where you're,

[1:49:53] you may be surveilling our children,

[1:49:56] you're surveilling your neighbors,

[1:49:58] you're surveilling myself, who

[1:50:01] as we think about why you all are here, you are here

[1:50:05] to be stewards of our community.

[1:50:07] And I'm gonna take that moral argument

[1:50:09] and look at each one of you

[1:50:10] and think about how you would feel about that

[1:50:12] with your children, your family and others.

[1:50:16] And then think about, is this the right thing

[1:50:18] for our community to take a look at this?

[1:50:20] 'cause this is not going away, this is not going away.

[1:50:23] And you have a choice to either start trying

[1:50:26] to do something, come to a consensus with

[1:50:28] what your constituents want,

[1:50:30] or you can just let other people make the

[1:50:32] rules into technology.

[1:50:33] Run this. I work

[1:50:34] for an extraordinarily large technology firm.

[1:50:36] I work with AI every day. I write AI algorithms.

[1:50:40] I know what this stuff can do.

[1:50:41] And then, unless you all take the time to be deliberate

[1:50:44] and thoughtful about it, we're already behind it.

[1:50:47] We're already chasing it.

[1:50:48] So I would just encourage you to take

[1:50:51] good common sense approach to saying,

[1:50:55] is this solving anything really, truly,

[1:50:56] or are there better ways we can be doing this with our,

[1:51:00] with our police officers, with firefighters,

[1:51:02] with other people in our communities to do it the right way.

[1:51:05] So it's a place that your children,

[1:51:06] your grandchildren, want to grow up in.

[1:51:09] So a little bit different than

[1:51:11] a lot of the other approaches.

[1:51:12] And I'm gonna implore each of you to think about that

[1:51:14] as an individual because it's just

[1:51:19] simply not going away.

[1:51:20] And non-action is simply not an option. Thank you.

[1:51:26] - Thank you.

[1:51:35] That's a good point.

[1:51:41] - Hi everyone, my name is Sarah Henderson.

[1:51:43] I've been a resident of Ferguson Township

[1:51:45] for almost 10 years now.

[1:51:47] I didn't initially plan to speak today,

[1:51:49] so I don't have anything written

[1:51:50] down, so bear with me please.

[1:51:53] But I think everyone who spoke

[1:51:55] before me has touched on a lot of good points.

[1:51:57] So what I wanna say is, as you pointed out, Mr. White,

[1:52:01] there's, there are some common sense uses that have,

[1:52:05] you know, already been used without issues such

[1:52:07] as parking garage and, and law enforcement.

[1:52:09] And I think, you know, none of us wanna inhibit that sort

[1:52:12] of thing or make it harder for law enforcement

[1:52:14] to do, do their job.

[1:52:16] And I'm sorry, I don't remember who said it over here,

[1:52:18] but somebody mentioned that it might not be within the

[1:52:22] township's power to outright ban bees, but,

[1:52:27] and I'm also getting the, the vibe that

[1:52:30] pretty much everybody here has the same concern.

[1:52:32] I mean, we're all essentially neighbors.

[1:52:34] We're all Ferguson Township residents.

[1:52:36] You know, you guys are, are my neighbors and you know,

[1:52:40] and I'm your neighbor and we all have the same concerns.

[1:52:42] We all live here and your hands might be tied on

[1:52:45] certain things, you know, there.

[1:52:46] I understand the Township only has so much power,

[1:52:50] but I wanna encourage

[1:52:51] and plea with all of you who I think, you know,

[1:52:55] pretty much all feel the same way as everyone in this room

[1:52:57] to whatever you can do, please do it.

[1:53:01] I know you might not be able to outright ban,

[1:53:02] but come, I feel like if the Township can tell me

[1:53:04] how tall my grass can be,

[1:53:06] they can probably tell me I can't have an AI powered

[1:53:09] camera watching everybody.

[1:53:11] You know? So push as much as you can.

[1:53:15] You know, if I, I know you said you had faith in,

[1:53:18] in all the staff here, and I think that's wonderful

[1:53:20] and just from, you know,

[1:53:22] everybody here seems like intelligent, caring people

[1:53:24] who care about their community.

[1:53:25] But you've mentioned something about passing a, a resolution

[1:53:28] to agree to not accept a flock

[1:53:30] or other similar company contracts.

[1:53:32] I think that's a great start.

[1:53:33] Even if you don't think it's, it's necessary.

[1:53:36] I just wanna see something. And it will help inspire faith

[1:53:38] in the community that you guys are really here to serve them

[1:53:41] and you're with them on this it, it might not do anything

[1:53:44] 'cause maybe you wouldn't have accepted

[1:53:45] a flock contract anyway.

[1:53:47] But hey, it's gonna make everyone in the

[1:53:48] community feel a lot better.

[1:53:49] Like, you know, you're there for them.

[1:53:51] But whatever else you can do, whether it's suing,

[1:53:53] whether it's something else, I just wanna see some action,

[1:53:56] whatever's within your capacity.

[1:53:58] So that's all I've got to say. Thank you guys.

[1:54:00] - Thank you.

[1:54:09] If nobody has anything else, oh, I do. Oh, okay.

[1:54:19] - Renee White in Township.

[1:54:21] Again, I just wanted

[1:54:22] to share my personal experience with APRs.

[1:54:27] Just one day in the mail, I got this fine from York County

[1:54:33] and I, I was never there that day.

[1:54:37] It wasn't my car, it wasn't my license plate,

[1:54:40] it was like one letter off a sheriff

[1:54:41] stamped it, sent it my way.

[1:54:43] Mm. And the onus was on me to not pay that fine

[1:54:46] to defend myself and say that's not my car.

[1:54:50] I wasn't there. As far as I'm aware,

[1:54:53] this wasn't a flock camera

[1:54:55] or anything with high power technology

[1:54:59] and AI and whatever else.

[1:55:01] This was just your standard license plate reader.

[1:55:05] And somebody stamped and approved this and sent it my way

[1:55:08] and then it was my responsibility.

[1:55:11] So just because of that, it makes me think that

[1:55:16] any of these other APRs with more advanced technology,

[1:55:19] getting more things wrong using AI

[1:55:23] is gonna put the onus on a lot of people to try

[1:55:25] to defend themselves against things

[1:55:26] that they're not guilty of.

[1:55:30] So taking that into consideration, there's not much else

[1:55:35] I can say that everybody else hasn't already said.

[1:55:38] Taken into account incompetence

[1:55:41] and abuses of this technology.

[1:55:45] Please do what you can to not have these in our area.

[1:55:50] We don't want these, nobody wants these. Thank you.

[1:55:55] - Thank you. Thank you.

[1:56:00] Say probably one last call for any Public Comment

[1:56:03] and we can re wrap, bring it, bring it back in

[1:56:07] for board discussion.

[1:56:09] Okay. Yeah. We can bring it back to discussion.

[1:56:11] Right. Do you,

[1:56:12] - Okay, so that being said, I mean I feel like

[1:56:16] I'm always against resolutions

[1:56:18] 'cause they feel like toothless,

[1:56:20] but hearing what folks have said tonight,

[1:56:23] I'm softening my position on that.

[1:56:25] I am willing to, I am willing to, to entertain

[1:56:30] a, a resolution that encapsulates all the comments

[1:56:33] that were had tonight.

[1:56:35] And I would love to, I don't know the direction,

[1:56:38] but like having an actual sit down with our solicitor,

[1:56:41] maybe be like, I, I don't know, like a work session

[1:56:43] or of some kind so that way we can figure out

[1:56:46] what our avenues are,

[1:56:47] like litigation wise, what that might look like.

[1:56:50] And see if she or anybody else at Babs Calend can come up

[1:56:54] with the legal argument

[1:56:57] that these are in violation of our fourth Amendment rights

[1:57:00] or tell us where we're wrong

[1:57:02] because it doesn't make any sense to me

[1:57:03] how this is not a patent leave a patent violation

[1:57:06] of our fourth amendment rights.

[1:57:07] And so I would love to see our solicitor come

[1:57:09] and show us how we're wrong or how we're right.

[1:57:14] That would be, I think would put a lot

[1:57:16] of folks like minds at ease here knowing

[1:57:19] that we are legally in the right,

[1:57:20] should we choose to sue anybody?

[1:57:22] Should anybody choose to put these in here?

[1:57:25] Should that be the path that we decide to go down?

[1:57:27] And I'm not saying that we should just like unilaterally,

[1:57:29] like okay, giant on Atherton,

[1:57:32] put in flock, like we're gonna sue.

[1:57:34] I would imagine there would be some kind of, you know, like

[1:57:38] discussion before we, we went that way.

[1:57:41] But at at least yeah.

[1:57:45] Being as transparent about this as possible moving forward,

[1:57:47] because a lot of people do feel like this stuff is

[1:57:49] happening behind closed doors.

[1:57:51] So I don't know what the appropriate action would be as far

[1:57:55] as passing the resolution

[1:57:56] or if there's a motion that would need to be made.

[1:57:59] But I'm happy to make a motion and yeah.

[1:58:05] - Hmm. I guess the question would be who, who,

[1:58:08] who would draft the resolution?

[1:58:10] Yeah.

[1:58:12] - That Yeah, I that is a good question. Yeah.

[1:58:15] I have never drafted a resolution before.

[1:58:18] I, I don't know if that would be you.

[1:58:20] - I've, I've drafted resolutions. Okay.

[1:58:22] I just haven't brought 'em forward.

[1:58:24] - Okay. Yeah. I mean if that, if if it's me that has

[1:58:26] to make the resolution Yeah.

[1:58:28] And get it before this board at some time,

[1:58:31] I'm happy to do that.

[1:58:32] I don't like, I know we're entering budget season,

[1:58:34] I don't wanna like overload staff.

[1:58:35] If this is something that I need to do, I will do that.

[1:58:38] I will utilize resources in this community

[1:58:40] to create a resolution

[1:58:42] that encapsulates all the comments from tonight.

[1:58:44] I just don't wanna make any mistakes procedurally.

[1:58:46] And I want to reflect what everybody here has said.

[1:58:50] So I will take guidance on that.

[1:58:55] - Defer to the manager here. Yeah. I

[1:58:57] - Could, I could work with Mr. White if he can at least

[1:59:02] put a framework of the comments this evening

[1:59:04] and then we can get it into resolution form

[1:59:08] and then run it by our solicitor just to make sure

[1:59:10] that we're not overstepping

[1:59:11] or overstating something that we shouldn't be.

[1:59:17] I'd be happy to do that.

[1:59:19] - Yeah, and I was gonna say, even I've,

[1:59:21] I've seen resolutions even

[1:59:23] where they like would encapsulate like even

[1:59:27] Governor Josh Shapiro's remarks

[1:59:28] and even any state legislators that have

[1:59:34] came forward on the matter

[1:59:35] and, you know, voiced their stance.

[1:59:40] - Okay. - Yeah.

[1:59:42] And then once, once it's adopted, like you, you can,

[1:59:45] you know, we can send that to our state representatives

[1:59:48] and to the governor's office

[1:59:50] and you could even, you know,

[1:59:54] take a long shot and send it over to Washington

[1:59:57] and be like, Hey, we gotta do that.

[1:59:58] It's a Township, this is where we stand on it. So

[2:00:02] - Yeah.

[2:00:03] Okay. Yeah. Well I will, I'll happily

[2:00:06] it's getting a little late, so

[2:00:07] how about I email you tomorrow morning if that works? You

[2:00:09] - Set time to sit down?

[2:00:11] - Absolutely. Yeah. - Alright. Alright.

[2:00:16] - I was gonna say maybe anyone else?

[2:00:20] No, trying to think. Should we, Mr. Patterson? Mr.

[2:00:23] Patterson?

[2:00:26] - Yeah. I just wanna make sure we're not

[2:00:27] doing anything performative here.

[2:00:29] If, if there's an actual action that we can take

[2:00:31] and let's take that action,

[2:00:32] but just simply writing down words on paper

[2:00:35] and saying we resolved to for words.

[2:00:38] I, I, I'm just not in favor of that.

[2:00:40] So just, I, I do want to do whatever's kind of within our

[2:00:45] scope and purview to say, hey, here's, here's what we

[2:00:50] would like to happen in our, in our town and what

[2:00:52] and what, what can we could do about it.

[2:00:55] I'd like to, I'm with, I think whoever said it earlier,

[2:00:58] let's go with the solicitor and just understand what we can

[2:01:01] and cannot do and then just execute from there over

[2:01:05] - See what you're saying Ari?

[2:01:08] So it kind of sounds like we're maybe approaching,

[2:01:13] needing to do a little bit of homework on this,

[2:01:16] but it sounds like also bringing it back for, you know,

[2:01:20] a menu of options but also having a fully drafted

[2:01:26] resolution to move forward.

[2:01:28] - Okay. Yeah, - I can do that.

[2:01:32] - So I think with that one I would,

[2:01:35] would entertain a motion,

[2:01:40] I'm trying to think 'cause we didn't necessarily,

[2:01:44] - So, so I have direction I'd be happy to put it on a future

[2:01:49] agenda for discussion of a resolution

[2:01:53] and then at the following one, if the board is happy,

[2:01:57] we can bring it back to the following agenda for approval.

[2:02:03] - Okay. Yeah, just we've

[2:02:04] captured comments, we bring 'em back.

[2:02:06] Okay. Yeah,

[2:02:08] because again, still not necessarily taking action

[2:02:10] but you know, just kind of doing some research on it,

[2:02:14] you know, before the action, so.

[2:02:16] Okay. Alright. Anything else? Nope,

[2:02:20] - I'm all good. Okay.

[2:02:22] - Thank you so - Much. Yes, thank you everyone for your

[2:02:25] remarks and participation.

[2:02:30] Let's see, so automated license plate readers,

[2:02:35] and then the last item in new business will be a resolution

[2:02:37] Township of Ferguson Centre County, Pennsylvania,

[2:02:39] supporting the Pennsylvania municipal league

[2:02:42] PML in expanding the definition of earned income tax.

[2:02:46] And I don't know if the manager has more on this

[2:02:50] or if this is Mr.

[2:02:52] Patterson's. I know Mr.

[2:02:54] Patterson has been a strong advocate for

[2:02:58] us on this matter, so whoever wants to open up

[2:03:03] - So moved. Oh, I'm

[2:03:04] - Sorry.

[2:03:05] Yeah, I can open up. I mean, at the end of the day this is,

[2:03:07] this is a kind of formalization of our,

[2:03:11] the things we've already done thus far, which is, hey,

[2:03:13] this is what we as a board, you know, kind of endorse,

[2:03:18] doesn't matter how strongly we just endorse it.

[2:03:19] So this is kind of the formalization of

[2:03:22] that endorsement over,

[2:03:24] - Yep.

[2:03:26] Yes, Mr. Hallard. Oh,

[2:03:27] - I was just going to say, if we are ready for the,

[2:03:30] you know, the motion, I would ask if Mr.

[2:03:32] Patterson would deliver it, but I go, I'm

[2:03:36] - Ready for it.

[2:03:37] Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm good to and ready for the motion

[2:03:44] - I move to adopt the resolution.

[2:03:46] - And do we have a second? - This is Matt. I'll second

[2:03:50] - Got a motion by Mr.

[2:03:51] Patterson, second by Mr. Heller.

[2:03:53] Any discussion on this? Yes, Mr. White. Yeah.

[2:03:55] - I'm gonna be a little bit

[2:03:55] intentionally facetious here, Mr.

[2:03:57] Patterson, regarding your comments on the

[2:04:00] resolution from the previous matter.

[2:04:02] How is this not just words on paper, over

[2:04:05] - It's words on paper for an action?

[2:04:07] The action is, and so I will just,

[2:04:09] I think we talked about this months ago.

[2:04:11] So I think for the purposes of the people

[2:04:13] that have never seen this topic, we,

[2:04:17] those words say what we are in favor of the state changing.

[2:04:21] The state needs to change their laws

[2:04:23] to give local municipalities more flexibility.

[2:04:27] The state needs to take action

[2:04:29] and this is the action we want

[2:04:30] to take, this the state to take.

[2:04:32] So we are requesting, and,

[2:04:33] and so we as a single municipality cannot go

[2:04:36] to the 400 legislators

[2:04:38] or whatever number of legislators are, are in,

[2:04:40] in the State house and ask them as a single entity,

[2:04:44] we need a larger body like a PML, like a PSATs,

[2:04:47] like a whatever to do that with us, you know, to say, hey,

[2:04:51] there's 2000 townships that want this to happen.

[2:04:54] And, and then we can get more movement there.

[2:04:56] So this is a one step in a larger process.

[2:04:59] It's taken me a long time to figure out

[2:05:00] what the next step is, but this is a necessary step over.

[2:05:04] - Thank you. And like I said, I'm being

[2:05:06] intentionally facetious with that.

[2:05:07] I, I I understand that there's a larger strategic direction

[2:05:09] with this resolution, so I will leave it at that.

[2:05:14] - No, I thought it was perfect. I appreciate your

[2:05:16] facetiousness and,

[2:05:17] and I, I, I took it wholeheartedly as an opportunity

[2:05:20] to explain the situation for those

[2:05:22] that have not seen this in the past over

[2:05:25] - And this, and this is in the PML

[2:05:31] resolutions packet, which will be voted on

[2:05:34] during the resolutions committee meeting on October 1st,

[2:05:38] and then the following Friday at the

[2:05:42] leadership summit in Hershey.

[2:05:46] I will defer to the manager

[2:05:47] - Y Yes.

[2:05:48] So in regards to those things coming in front for vote

[2:05:51] for PML, you will be seeing it at the

[2:05:55] first October board meeting to vote on it to

[2:06:00] allow your PML representatives to vote

[2:06:02] accordingly at that meeting.

[2:06:05] So, alright. Alright.

[2:06:10] - If the board has nothing further, I'd

[2:06:13] recognize the manager to call the role.

[2:06:16] - Okay. Mr.

[2:06:20] Let's just do Mr. Thompson. Yes. Mr. Patterson?

[2:06:25] Nope.

[2:06:28] - Yes. - Okay. Mr. Heller? Yes. Mr. White?

[2:06:33] Yes. Ms. Davids? Yes.

[2:06:38] - Alright. Motion passed. Motion passes.

[2:06:41] So we will move on to our Centre Region Council

[2:06:42] government reports.

[2:06:44] We'll start with the Parks

[2:06:45] of Recreation special governance committee.

[2:06:47] And I'll recognize Ms. Stephens

[2:06:50] - Basically just looking at the maintenance agreement

[2:06:54] that was in the agenda packet

[2:06:56] and any comments to forward

[2:06:58] to COG with that?

[2:07:02] I, I think we had a communications to the board

[2:07:05] that sort of touched on Yes.

[2:07:07] On some of the, the problems.

[2:07:09] And I, and I will say that that's one of the things we,

[2:07:15] in discussing this COG and their staff for parks

[2:07:19] and maintaining the parks has the same issue

[2:07:23] that we have here, is that the work is growing

[2:07:27] and it's harder and harder to find people.

[2:07:31] So anyway, they're just trying to put into writing

[2:07:36] what they're currently doing.

[2:07:39] And again, I'll, I'll go back to, this is really more

[2:07:42] of an operational thing between and

[2:07:45] and our staff,

[2:07:47] but if there's any comments you add about those,

[2:07:50] we could forward those on the committee.

[2:07:54] Otherwise this will go through the committee

[2:07:56] and then onto the general forum again,

[2:08:02] if anyone has any comments, anything, yes, Mr. Heller?

[2:08:07] - I think generally, because this did come up in one

[2:08:09] of our budget hearings a couple days ago, is I kind of,

[2:08:14] I learned that the Parks Authority,

[2:08:17] well not the Parks Authority, lemme not say that,

[2:08:19] but that if a municipality,

[2:08:21] and I'll speak very generally here, puts a park up tomorrow,

[2:08:24] all of a sudden COG is

[2:08:27] responsible for the maintenance of that park.

[2:08:29] Yes. That's kind of, I don't know if I like that.

[2:08:33] Let me just say it that way because I,

[2:08:35] we already see them overburdened,

[2:08:37] we see them working in a hundred different things

[2:08:39] and I've heard multiple times, well yeah,

[2:08:42] because that Township did that, now we have

[2:08:44] to send resources over there

[2:08:46] and somebody's gotta pay for it.

[2:08:47] And that's a, again, encapsulating that.

[2:08:50] So I think there's a larger conversation.

[2:08:52] Why I'm saying this is,

[2:08:53] I think there's a larger conversation that has to happen

[2:08:56] between the parks authority, governance, finance,

[2:08:59] COG in general about

[2:09:01] what we're really doing in the parks and recs space.

[2:09:03] And one of the things that I offered to the folks is

[2:09:05] that my commitment to try

[2:09:07] and rightsize what do they need to do

[2:09:10] to rightsize these things.

[2:09:12] And maybe it's programs,

[2:09:13] maybe it's having different agreements.

[2:09:16] So I'm concerned about this from a very general standpoint

[2:09:20] because I don't like that other municipalities,

[2:09:23] even Ferguson, can all of a sudden now

[2:09:26] demand resources from a central agency

[2:09:28] because of the decision that was made within the mu within

[2:09:31] the municipality unilaterally.

[2:09:32] That's a concern. At least that's

[2:09:34] what I took away from the conversation

[2:09:35] and I still have more investigation to do,

[2:09:37] but that, that was hot off the press

[2:09:39] in my interpretation of it.

[2:09:40] So generally speaking I think there's more to come

[2:09:42] in this conversation

[2:09:44] and I look forward to the conversations as they do,

[2:09:46] but as this is written, I have no

[2:09:47] - Issue.

[2:09:48] Right. And that was sort

[2:09:49] of the par accepting parks policy, right.

[2:09:52] Accepting in like what we are willing to accept in,

[2:09:55] in the process to go through that so

[2:09:57] that we don't in fact have situations like that

[2:10:01] - Because yeah, we heard about them

[2:10:02] and I'm just going, oh my gosh.

[2:10:05] - Yeah. Okay. It's, it's, there are so many layers.

[2:10:08] It's been very, very complicated.

[2:10:09] And this is basically just trying to get into writing

[2:10:13] what has been in practice

[2:10:14] and there was some suggested level of service in terms

[2:10:18] of park maintenance and that sort of got erased just

[2:10:21] to get this document together. I

[2:10:24] - Get it, I get it.

[2:10:25] So more to follow

[2:10:26] and I'm happy to help Patty wherever anything's needed.

[2:10:29] - Of course. Thank you. Yes. Right. So no comments?

[2:10:33] Comments then to go back about this or? No. Okay. Thank you.

[2:10:38] - No problem.

[2:10:44] The next item would be a finance committee.

[2:10:48] And I would recognize Matt as well as even

[2:10:53] Todd who has been sitting through,

[2:10:56] what are we on now? Oh, Ron,

[2:10:59] - You finish number three. That was

[2:11:00] - 3, 6, 12, 9, 11 - Hours of in-person.

[2:11:04] Anyway, so we did our third budget hearing.

[2:11:07] There is no formal report, I apologize.

[2:11:09] This is just, and during budget workshops,

[2:11:11] it's too many things flying around.

[2:11:13] So the big takeaway right now is we should anticipate likely

[2:11:17] between a six to 11% increase of the COG budget

[2:11:22] from our Ferguson Township should

[2:11:24] anticipate that sort of number.

[2:11:27] The numbers we are looking at

[2:11:30] baseline today are just about 5.95% increase for Ferguson.

[2:11:35] That does not include the SIG C items, the strategic guide

[2:11:38] to services and investments, which will,

[2:11:41] we will be addressing on Thursday.

[2:11:44] So right now we're sitting at about a 6%

[2:11:48] that does not include the 60 items

[2:11:50] and I anticipate some cuts

[2:11:53] from the executive director in COG before that gets to us.

[2:11:56] So I don't think it's gonna be anywhere near that 11%,

[2:11:59] but it will be north of 6%.

[2:12:03] I'll offer this, once the video is available from today's

[2:12:08] budget workshop, I invite everybody

[2:12:10] and those online to, to go ahead

[2:12:13] and look at the first 30 minutes of that meeting.

[2:12:16] Look at it on double times, only spend 15 minutes

[2:12:19] because you'll hear a,

[2:12:20] a rather good explanation from the executive director as

[2:12:23] to why municipal shares have gone up.

[2:12:26] Although the overall budget

[2:12:28] for COG is actually on the decline,

[2:12:31] that doesn't make a lot of sense.

[2:12:32] But I think when you see, and when you hear his explanation

[2:12:36] and the questions that myself

[2:12:37] and others were asking, it does shed a light on that.

[2:12:40] So I encourage everybody

[2:12:42] before our budget hearing, either in,

[2:12:45] before the budget for COG

[2:12:47] or anything that we do here to on double time,

[2:12:49] maybe just spend that 15 minutes

[2:12:50] and listen to what was said there

[2:12:52] because it does encapsulate so many more things

[2:12:55] than I could ever touch on here.

[2:12:57] Yeah. So that's what we're looking at.

[2:12:59] I'm happy to field any questions.

[2:13:01] Of course, because it is budget season as we heard already.

[2:13:06] COG will be in front. I'll be gathering more information

[2:13:08] from everybody here on SIG C and other things between now

[2:13:11] and the end of the year or when we get to passing

[2:13:13] or moving the budget forward at COG.

[2:13:15] So I look forward to additional conversations in that space.

[2:13:18] Yeah,

[2:13:21] - And and I was watching through

[2:13:24] those hearings and I'm

[2:13:26] - Sorry.

[2:13:27] - Yeah, it, and again, we're up to like hour 11 of,

[2:13:32] you know, just talking about the budget for the council

[2:13:36] of governments and I think Matt

[2:13:39] and others have brought up good questions to bring context

[2:13:44] and I think as you're, as you're hearing those, like yeah,

[2:13:48] if you just look at the budget overall, yeah, it's,

[2:13:52] it's a big number.

[2:13:53] It's a lot of numbers, but you know,

[2:13:55] when you get the context it really makes a lot of sense

[2:13:59] and yeah, I dunno

[2:14:04] what our, but our own Township budget's gonna look like

[2:14:07] because I, you know,

[2:14:09] even hearing some crazy numbers on healthcare,

[2:14:14] - I healthcare, and you'll hear me straight in the budget

[2:14:16] here, we're getting hit from all sides my day job.

[2:14:19] Yep. You're at the Township here

[2:14:21] and COG, everybody's getting hit and right.

[2:14:25] It, I even had a conversation

[2:14:27] with a couple folks in the medical profession

[2:14:30] and you would think the affluent side of the house doctors

[2:14:33] and others that don't have,

[2:14:34] that won't feel this pain

[2:14:35] from healthcare and everything else.

[2:14:37] They're feeling it too.

[2:14:38] Yeah, everybody is, and it is garbage

[2:14:40] and I will reserve my comments and leave it there.

[2:14:43] - Yeah, I've been just thinking about my

[2:14:46] overall healthcare costs.

[2:14:48] Like I, you know, between my wife

[2:14:50] and I, yeah, we pay a few thousand dollars a year in

[2:14:53] premiums, but when you look at what my employer sponsors,

[2:14:58] it's like tens of thousands of dollars

[2:15:01] and it, you, you, you, it's just staggering.

[2:15:06] You know how, you know, just for two people, you know, tens

[2:15:10] of thousands of dollars, but some people have heard

[2:15:14] of increase, like I think the COG healthcare increase this

[2:15:17] year is like 10, 10%,

[2:15:19] but there's some that are going

[2:15:22] probably close 20 if not over 20% higher from last year.

[2:15:26] And just, just, I just stop

[2:15:30] and wonder if it will eventually just catch up with itself.

[2:15:33] I like, like we could, we could go down the rabbit hole,

[2:15:37] gas prices and everything else, you know, I, but

[2:15:40] - I'm sorry Mr. Chair, I

[2:15:41] - Apologize.

[2:15:42] Yeah. Interrupted. But I, I think, you know,

[2:15:47] we're making the best of, you know, we can

[2:15:54] can't ignore inflation rising cost.

[2:15:57] You gotta continue to keep things going somehow.

[2:16:02] So we, we got a lot of hard decisions this year. Yes.

[2:16:08] - And I will just say this too,

[2:16:10] because I just happened

[2:16:12] to be involved in healthcare decisions

[2:16:13] and it is one of those situations too where this year's bad

[2:16:18] next year's projected to be just as bad if not worse.

[2:16:21] So I I have no good news unfortunately in that space.

[2:16:27] Other than that Mrs. Lincoln,

[2:16:29] - How was the play?

[2:16:32] Sorry, but yeah, any questions?

[2:16:38] I was gonna say anything else for Matt? You'll

[2:16:41] - Thank you.

[2:16:42] Just thank you. Yeah. Oh,

[2:16:43] - No problem.

[2:16:44] Thank you. You'll, you'll wrap up budget hearings on

[2:16:47] Thursday and then next Tuesday at General forum

[2:16:51] I will have the blessing of taking, taking the budget packet

[2:16:55] and forwarding it to the general forum.

[2:16:58] I was gonna say next, not next Tuesday at General forum,

[2:17:00] well next, next Tuesday is executive committee

[2:17:02] and then, yeah, don't do that to me.

[2:17:08] So yeah, it goes through the executive committee

[2:17:10] and then the general forum at the end of the month,

[2:17:13] so, alright.

[2:17:15] Any communications to the board?

[2:17:18] - I had a communication regarding some parks

[2:17:21] and some rental units in the neighborhood.

[2:17:28] - I had lots of communications. Oh, okay.

[2:17:30] So obviously regarding bioswales and, and flock cameras,

[2:17:34] but also potentially unsafe living conditions

[2:17:37] for tenants within the West College neighborhood district.

[2:17:41] I'll follow up with some folks after that,

[2:17:43] but I, I had a conversation with someone today regarding,

[2:17:46] like I said, what,

[2:17:47] what sounded like pretty unsafe living conditions And so

[2:17:51] yeah, definitely wanna see what, if there is something

[2:17:54] that we can do about that or you know, the, the right kind

[2:17:57] of party to direct this person to and, and all that stuff.

[2:18:01] - I think comment - I I'll say, so communications

[2:18:05] to the board is where we just like, are like

[2:18:07] who has told us stuff and so, okay.

[2:18:11] Yeah. And we can talk afterwards and then, you know,

[2:18:14] or we could, you know, have the Public Comment at the next

[2:18:16] meeting or I can, you know, bring up communications

[2:18:19] to the board at the next we can talk.

[2:18:21] So anyway, sorry.

[2:18:24] Yeah, so West College neighborhood

[2:18:26] district, blah, blah, blah.

[2:18:28] Also, I guess I, I don't, I didn't know the right place

[2:18:31] to put this, but did we receive any update

[2:18:33] regarding the PRC five case certificate

[2:18:35] of insurance and CRPR permit?

[2:18:37] Did they ever get those?

[2:18:41] - I'll have to get - Back to them. Okay.

[2:18:42] 'cause the 5K is on the 19th, which is

[2:18:45] - This - Saturday, this week, this Saturday.

[2:18:48] So I don't know if they submitted those things, but anyway.

[2:18:52] And then if we had time,

[2:18:54] a resident from the Rock Spring Water Company

[2:18:58] gave me a mailer that they received

[2:19:00] and wanted it read into the record.

[2:19:02] I'm happy to read it

[2:19:03] or if there is another mechanism

[2:19:05] to get this into the record.

[2:19:08] Yeah,

[2:19:10] - I've had one of those before.

[2:19:11] I'd be happy to enter it into the work

[2:19:13] - Packet.

[2:19:14] Yeah, okay. I have that as well. Oh, okay. All right.

[2:19:18] Do you want me to read it or can we

[2:19:20] just entering it into the podcast?

[2:19:21] You just enter it into the record. Okey dokey. All right.

[2:19:23] Yeah, I'll say it was mildly concerning. So,

[2:19:27] - And that is what I - Had.

[2:19:29] Okay.

[2:19:30] - I had communications regarding the parks

[2:19:32] and overgrown vegetation.

[2:19:37] - Okay. Mr. Patterson, did you have anything

[2:19:44] - Condolences to the young man that passed away

[2:19:47] from the accident?

[2:19:51] Hopefully there's some resolution on that

[2:19:53] and getting into the bottom of what happened there.

[2:19:57] And then a little bit of correspondence on all the things

[2:20:00] that we've discussed today

[2:20:05] over

[2:20:06] - Okay.

[2:20:07] And I had a communication, I believe it was over

[2:20:12] by Fairbrook Park, also had a communication

[2:20:15] from the One Hand Foundation.

[2:20:18] They are a local nonprofit.

[2:20:20] They recently established a MO Mobile Dental Clinic

[2:20:24] for children, and they are having a clinic later this month

[2:20:28] in the Borough, and they would be interested in

[2:20:31] putting one on in Ferguson Township.

[2:20:33] So I have forwarded those communications to the manager to

[2:20:38] fo follow, follow up.

[2:20:40] And then I also did have a communication of the bioswale

[2:20:44] and it, one, one last thing, I,

[2:20:48] I don't do this a often,

[2:20:50] but I just wanted to take some time this evening

[2:20:53] and just thank our local media that has been here,

[2:20:56] had Jacob here from the center Daily Times, Mr.

[2:21:01] Mr. Rogers from Senator Ging gives that joining us online.

[2:21:04] And then I saw Channel six photo journalist

[2:21:07] Sean was in attendance.

[2:21:09] I just want to thank all of you for coming in here

[2:21:13] and capturing our meetings

[2:21:16] and taking that back out to the public.

[2:21:19] I think the value of local journalism is very valuable

[2:21:23] and I would just share that I think it is unfortunate

[2:21:28] that the McClatchy company

[2:21:30] who manages the Center Daily Times has decided to

[2:21:35] remove their local journalists from

[2:21:38] their organization.

[2:21:43] But I, you know, just thank

[2:21:48] all of you that come in here

[2:21:51] and, you know, share our local story

[2:21:53] because we're all human,

[2:21:56] we all have busy lives

[2:21:59] and sometimes just being able to catch up on what happens

[2:22:03] to the meeting in, in State College dot com

[2:22:07] or on the, you know, television news

[2:22:09] or even at, at the Center Daily Times can, you know,

[2:22:14] nicely help somebody

[2:22:15] to stay informed without completely losing,

[2:22:19] you know, what's going on.

[2:22:20] So just thank you for your journalism

[2:22:23] and covering our community.

[2:22:26] - Jeremie, I wanna echo that too. Yes.

[2:22:28] Because I went to a Press Forward event that was sponsored

[2:22:31] by the Center Foundation

[2:22:33] and that was exactly their findings.

[2:22:36] Is that what the, the people they spoke

[2:22:39] with in the Pennsylvania wilds was local news.

[2:22:44] It was what's happening in their local government.

[2:22:46] They didn't care necessarily so much about the

[2:22:50] national news, et cetera.

[2:22:51] Yeah. But what they really, really were interested in was

[2:22:53] what was happening locally,

[2:22:55] particularly in local government.

[2:22:57] So it is sort of unfortunate that they made that decision,

[2:23:00] but thank you for covering it.

[2:23:02] - Yeah, I,

[2:23:03] I even remember one year the Centre County Farm Bureau

[2:23:06] recognized Gary Sanderson with an award.

[2:23:10] And one thing that they brought up was, as farmers

[2:23:14] you usually are working long hours

[2:23:16] and you don't necessarily have time to, you know, go

[2:23:20] and tell the public what you do on the farm.

[2:23:22] But again, local, local journalism showing

[2:23:26] what you're doing on the farm.

[2:23:27] And I know he did some good reporting on Route 3 22

[2:23:30] and other matters that matter to that particular community.

[2:23:35] So can just go on and on.

[2:23:39] So just wanted to get that out there.

[2:23:42] I wanna thank y'all again.

[2:23:45] Calendar items, coffee and conversations.

[2:23:47] Saturday, October 3rd and here it will be here.

[2:23:53] And trying to think who,

[2:23:55] who all will be joining us that day? Well,

[2:23:57] - Unfortunately I won't, I'll be in Florida that day

[2:24:00] for visiting my daughter in college.

[2:24:02] But Jenna, I can probably rope James into it

[2:24:06] and then we can see

[2:24:07] what other department heads will be willing to, to join us.

[2:24:11] - See you, somebody will be here.

[2:24:12] Feel free to come down, share your thoughts, concerns,

[2:24:16] what you like about the Township

[2:24:18] and complimentary coffee will be here.

[2:24:21] And then our budget meetings will be October 6th,

[2:24:25] the 13th and the 15th.

[2:24:28] Those will be at 6:00 PM We'll be going

[2:24:30] through our 2027 budget.

[2:24:32] Those will also be broadcasted through CNET.

[2:24:35] Definitely encourage you to come and participate, listen in.

[2:24:39] They are lengthy meetings.

[2:24:40] But again, you know, I think if you even contribute

[2:24:45] a little bit of time, that's better than nothing

[2:24:49] because again, local government, that that's, that's

[2:24:54] where you get the most effect on your daily life.

[2:24:57] You know, whether that's going out on the roads

[2:25:00] or need needing assistance from the police.

[2:25:03] So definitely come out in here, here what you know we do

[2:25:08] and you know, learn some things.

[2:25:10] And then trick or treat is October 29th.

[2:25:13] And so, and, and not on Matt's birthday,

[2:25:17] but it will be on Thursday.

[2:25:19] So from six to eight,

[2:25:21] you know, trick or treat.

[2:25:26] So if nothing else, I'll have Ms. Stephens present.

[2:25:29] Item number 11, motion to Adjourn. Alright, we're adjourned.

[2:25:32] Have a good evening everyone.

[2:26:04] - So you wanna vote in Centre County to be eligible

[2:26:07] to vote in any election,

[2:26:09] you must be registered in the county 15 days or more

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[2:26:14] You can check your registration status@vote.pa.gov,

[2:26:19] click on register to vote,

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[2:26:27] You can register online to vote@vote.pa.gov.

[2:26:30] Click on register to vote, then select register

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[2:26:35] and submit your registration online.

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[2:26:41] click on register to vote, then register to vote.

[2:26:45] You can also download the form straight to your computer,

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[2:26:51] If you are voting for the first time in a polling location,

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[2:27:23] Remember, if you wanna vote in Centre County,

[2:27:25] you must be registered in Centre

[2:27:27] County for your ballot to count.

[2:27:43] - Did you know that CNET has over 30 years

[2:27:45] of program archives available to the public

[2:27:48] for a requested donation of $20?

[2:27:50] You can receive a DVD

[2:27:51] or digital copy of any program in our library going

[2:27:54] back to 1988.

[2:27:55] The senior archives include high school graduations

[2:27:58] and award nights, school district concerts

[2:28:00] and sporting events, school library, write

[2:28:03] and illustrate your own book awards.

[2:28:05] Memorial Day in Burg

[2:28:07] and the Central Pennsylvania Festival of the Arts

[2:28:09] Military history lectures.

[2:28:11] So will round tables and many more.

[2:28:13] And don't forget about the meetings,

[2:28:15] we have an expansive archive of local government as well

[2:28:18] as Beon and State College area school board meetings.

[2:28:21] CNET has been covering the Centre County community

[2:28:23] for over three decades, and we have the tape to prove it.

[2:28:26] Visit CNET one.org to browse our archives

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[2:28:32] Nothing good on tv.

[2:28:34] You're just not watching the right channels.

9/15/26 Ferguson Township Board of Supervisors

Agenda

Transcript