[0:00] Okay. So, roll call. I see Michael

[0:03] >> here.

[0:04] >> Um, Steve here.

[0:05] >> Kevin

[0:05] >> here.

[0:06] >> Lauren, [clears throat]

[0:08] >> Jim. Um, so until maybe Hal gets here.

[0:12] Um, which one of you two was seated last

[0:14] time?

[0:16] >> Lauren was.

[0:17] >> Okay. Okay. Jim, would you be seated for

[0:21] now? [clears throat] And Fenty, I

[0:23] haven't forgotten you. We'll get to you

[0:24] soon shortly. Probably the next time.

[0:28] Okay. So, um, is there any public

[0:32] communications?

[0:34] Anybody from the public have anything to

[0:36] say?

[0:38] Online, I mean on Zoom.

[0:42] » It's online interested in speaking in

[0:45] public communication.

[0:48] » You think they can't hear me? Maybe I'm

[0:50] not loud enough.

[0:54] » They're b their booming voice. Thank

[0:56] you. Okay. Um, okay. So new business we

[1:00] have seven brew coffee shop.

[1:05] » Oh Josh is it be promoted?

[1:08] >> Yep.

[1:10] >> Yeah.

[1:27] » Uh good name. Thanks for having me here

[1:29] tonight. Uh for the record, my name is

[1:30] Will Sweeney Williams partner team

[1:33] London and always it's a pleasure to be

[1:36] here. Um tonight I'm coming back before

[1:38] you on behalf of ETB Gr LLC which as you

[1:42] may remember is a Connecticut LLC and

[1:44] it's a a holding company affiliate of

[1:46] the Seven Brew uh 7 Brew Coffee Found.

[1:49] Um, as you know, 7 Brew is expanding

[1:52] throughout southeastern Connecticut. Uh,

[1:54] and it has currently a purchase contract

[1:56] on the Senogo station at 731 Long Road

[2:00] in Gro.

[2:01] >> Last May, I came before you and received

[2:04] approval for a zoning text amendment to

[2:07] create a new classification of

[2:08] restaurant use within your zoning

[2:10] regulations. These would be restaurants

[2:12] that had a principal method of operation

[2:14] service utilizing a drive-through

[2:16] facility. Since you approved that

[2:18] amendment in May, uh my client and its

[2:21] design team led by um Stoneville

[2:24] Stonefield um has been working on the

[2:27] redevelopment plan for the Sonogo site.

[2:29] Uh and we've had several meetings um

[2:31] with your staff regarding the project. I

[2:34] have with me tonight Josh Klein with

[2:36] Stonefield. Uh he's going to be doing a

[2:39] little bit of the presentation tonight.

[2:41] Um and um I don't know if I have online,

[2:43] but my client may have representatives

[2:45] on line as well. Um, tonight we're here

[2:48] in an informal capacity uh for an

[2:50] informal discussion uh regarding uh

[2:53] based on recommendation by your staff to

[2:55] share with you several possible layouts

[2:57] for the new seven brew drive-thru coffee

[3:00] shop project and to try to get some

[3:02] feedback from you uh and to present to

[3:04] you some of these alternatives and just

[3:06] have an informal discussion. Uh, as you

[3:08] can probably imagine, restaurants with

[3:10] drive-through facilities really have

[3:13] limited layout options. And as in almost

[3:15] every case, automobiles generally have

[3:17] to take a circular route around a

[3:20] facility. Um, they have to enter a site,

[3:22] they have to get into a queue line, they

[3:25] have to place an order, they have to

[3:26] pick up that order, and then they have

[3:28] to exit the site. And that's no

[3:30] different with this site. It's no

[3:32] different with seven route uh uh coffee

[3:34] drop either. Um but there is on this

[3:36] site and I know it came up when we were

[3:38] talking in the initial uh meetings with

[3:41] the commission. Um there's a second

[3:43] access point on this site. Uh this site

[3:45] has a rear access point um to the auto

[3:48] parts store development right behind it.

[3:50] There is a cross connection between the

[3:52] two properties and um that complicates

[3:55] the circulation pattern to some extent.

[3:57] Um we after um our text amendment we

[4:01] actually at the request of staff

[4:02] investigated that cross connection and

[4:04] found out that there while it's been in

[4:06] existence for quite some time between

[4:08] the two properties there's actually no

[4:10] formal easement between the two

[4:11] properties allowing that it's just was

[4:13] built in both by both parties site plans

[4:16] to allow for that cross connection. Um

[4:18] and both have function but with no legal

[4:21] document between the two. um both my

[4:25] client and staff, you know, are unified

[4:28] that we want to try to preserve that

[4:30] second access into the site. Um we think

[4:32] it allows movement between adjacent

[4:34] properties without using Longville Road,

[4:36] which is something they do promote,

[4:37] particularly in the MTC district. Uh and

[4:40] it also offers customers of 7 the

[4:42] ability to get out to the traffic light

[4:45] that's in front of the auto park store.

[4:48] students a good reason to have that

[4:50] secondary access increases overall

[4:52] safety and certainly creates convenience

[4:54] for everyone. However, it also adds that

[4:57] additional access point to our

[5:00] drive-thru circulation that's got to be

[5:01] accommodated uh for traffic circulation

[5:04] and operations. We did have an initial

[5:07] plan which Josh was going to show you in

[5:09] a second that we showed to staff this

[5:11] more uh this summer which is very

[5:13] similar to what we showed this

[5:14] commission in the spring. uh and that

[5:16] had a a cur single curb cut off Longill

[5:19] Road and it preserved that cross

[5:21] connection to the auto parts store. Uh

[5:24] we think that design works, but the

[5:26] staff did voice some reasonable concerns

[5:28] about circulation through the site.

[5:30] People using that curb cut, that

[5:32] secondary access had to circumn the site

[5:35] to get into the queue. And there was a

[5:37] concern that there was addition a lot of

[5:39] additional traffic movement. So staff

[5:41] asked us to look at alternative layout

[5:43] designs. we could try to make the site

[5:45] function more efficiently obviously more

[5:48] safely if possible um and but keeping

[5:50] the secondary access point as an

[5:52] integral part of the design. So we put

[5:54] together a couple design alternatives we

[5:56] shared with staff and and after we did

[5:58] staff said it would be valuable they

[6:00] thought for us to bring our original

[6:02] plus our two alternative designs to the

[6:04] commission. Share them with you get some

[6:06] feedback from you before we select a

[6:09] sort of preferred alternative and before

[6:11] we make a formal submission. just get

[6:13] some feedback from the commission on

[6:14] your policy. So, at this time, I'm going

[6:16] to turn it over to Josh. Josh will uh

[6:18] share the screen and put up the the

[6:20] original design and go through both

[6:22] alternative designs. Sort of highlight

[6:24] the pros and cons of each. Uh again,

[6:27] from our perspective, all three designs

[6:28] work for our purposes. We think they can

[6:30] provide safe and efficient traffic flow,

[6:32] but we want to really have your input

[6:34] before we make a formal application. Uh

[6:36] and so really tonight, it's just some

[6:38] blended discussion. Shouldn't take a

[6:39] long time, but we really want to hear

[6:41] from the commission before we formally

[6:43] submit. So, with that, I'll introduce

[6:44] Scott Fle from Stonefield to uh present

[6:47] the premise. Josh,

[6:50] >> perfect. Uh hopefully, can everyone hear

[6:52] me? All right.

[6:54] >> Yep, we can hear you.

[6:56] >> Great. Well, nice to nice to see

[6:57] everyone. Josh Klein, Stonefield

[6:59] Engineering and Design, licensed traffic

[7:01] engineer in Connecticut. Uh site and

[7:03] traffic engineer in Connecticut, as well

[7:05] as um eight other eight other states.

[7:08] We're um we're excited to be back here.

[7:11] Um and I want to kind of walk through we

[7:13] have kind of four four plans tonight to

[7:17] kind of walk through. I did want to kind

[7:19] of just add a little bit to you know the

[7:21] importance of kind of maintaining this

[7:24] existing cross access easement. So, we did do some digging and and while

[7:28] there wasn't a a recorded document found

[7:30] kind of between the two ownership

[7:32] parties, the cross access improvement as

[7:35] well as the egress from Wendy's to the

[7:37] auto parts um site was part of the site

[7:40] plan approval that was in 2022 2023. So,

[7:44] it was done in order to kind of help

[7:47] alleviate um you know the potential for

[7:51] kind of backups for the gas station. My

[7:53] guess would be just based on some of the

[7:55] research that in working with DOT that

[7:58] was one of the requirements um or it was

[8:00] a suggestion of this board back in 2021

[8:02] when when the autoports went in to kind

[8:05] of help alleviate um traffic and it it's

[8:08] just good practice. We want to maintain

[8:10] crossax access easement. We want to kind

[8:13] of direct cars to use a signal

[8:15] especially when we're talking about uh

[8:17] left movements which that signal would

[8:19] allow. Um, so here I have up on the

[8:21] screen. This is the original concept

[8:23] plan. I believe it was shared. I was I

[8:25] was here virtually um during the text

[8:27] amended amendment, but this was kind of

[8:29] the plan that we

[8:31] >> can hate to interrupt. Is there any way

[8:33] to make that a full screen?

[8:34] >> There you go.

[8:36] >> See a little bit better. Thanks.

[8:37] >> Yeah, no problem. How's that?

[8:40] >> Much better.

[8:41] >> Perfect. I'll make sure to zoom in as we

[8:42] go through. So this was this was the

[8:44] plan um that we kind of went through and

[8:47] kind of helped guided us, you know, kind

[8:49] of in that initial text amendment phase.

[8:52] So again, you in in our conversations

[8:54] with Connecticut DOT, um you know, they

[8:57] really were looking, you know, at a kind

[8:59] of ingress egress driveway, uh left

[9:03] egress being allowed, uh lefts out being

[9:06] restricted and kind of maintaining that

[9:09] connection. Um, you know, we did hear a

[9:11] little bit of feedback kind of during

[9:13] that process and that really led us to

[9:16] kind of this plan number two. Um, so

[9:18] this was a a plan that was prepared as

[9:20] we as we look to kind of move through

[9:22] the process. So what we did with this

[9:25] plan was again, you know, we did make

[9:27] some adjustments to the driveway. This

[9:29] was really as we went into special

[9:31] permit or site plan design mode, you

[9:33] know, we had a real survey. uh we kind

[9:36] of brought in all the the zoning

[9:38] requirements and you know we we created

[9:40] that physical barrier uh to prevent

[9:42] those left movements out. We shifted the

[9:44] driveway over to kind of ensure that a

[9:46] car entering you know wasn't aligned

[9:48] with a car leaving. Um now we kind of

[9:51] get to this this next step. We obviously

[9:53] we heard some concerns with this plan.

[9:56] So we really went back to the drawing

[9:58] board to try to you know think how can

[10:00] we make this plan better and I think it

[10:02] was highlighted very well. I mean, we

[10:04] are somewhat limited, right? We have a drive-thru use that operates

[10:09] in a certain way. We have zoning

[10:10] criteria. We have cross access. We have

[10:13] proximity to a a signal. I mean, today

[10:16] there's two large driveways along the

[10:18] frontage. You know, we want to ensure

[10:20] DOT, you know, also is supportive. They

[10:22] want us to eliminate um and try to

[10:24] consolidate access and kind of not have

[10:26] this open configuration as the gas

[10:28] station does. So that kind of led us to

[10:32] um which I'm calling kind of plan number

[10:34] three um which looked to kind of

[10:37] maintain the pass through lane, maintain

[10:41] kind of the um configuration for the

[10:43] drive-thru, but create a little bit more

[10:46] separation in the ingress and egress on

[10:48] Long Hill Road. Um, and one of the kind

[10:51] of the keys here is uh we wanted to

[10:54] create stop control for vehicles either

[10:58] circulating the site to exit to the

[11:00] signal or a vehicle that might come in

[11:03] from the signal, circulate through the

[11:05] pass through lane uh and then look to

[11:07] enter the drive-thru. Um, so this kind

[11:11] of creating this separation here kind of

[11:13] allows for that stop control. So you you

[11:15] kind of have a point where a vehicle um

[11:18] is really able to as they circulate

[11:20] around they would they can stop here and

[11:22] they have a clear visibility of any cars

[11:25] coming into the site. So we thought that

[11:27] was really um a major enhancement of

[11:29] this plan and kind of you know now we

[11:33] kind of then move to plan plan number

[11:37] four. So, you know, we received some

[11:39] additional feedback uh regarding the

[11:41] circulation of the site and and kind of

[11:43] having a a customer who wants to make

[11:46] the left in on Long Hill Road um have to

[11:49] kind of fully, you know, or circulate

[11:51] part of the site to get into um the

[11:54] drive-thru

[11:56] um lane. So, we look to kind of take

[11:57] plan number three and kind of improve it

[12:00] one step further. So, we still have that

[12:03] separated ingress egress on Long Hill

[12:05] Road. We still have that stop control

[12:08] here. So any vehicle that again is

[12:10] exiting the drive-thru and need and

[12:12] wants to make a left on Long Hill Road,

[12:15] they have that stop control. Again, any

[12:16] vehicle that wants to kind of continue

[12:19] eastbound or make the right can kind of

[12:21] exit uh right out of the driveway. But

[12:24] one of the big advantages of this of

[12:26] this layout is it allows someone that

[12:28] was coming westbound on Long Hill Road,

[12:30] they make the left in to the light.

[12:33] They're able to enter the site and

[12:34] they're able to kind of get right into

[12:37] um the queuing lane. Now, it does

[12:40] eliminate kind of that dedicated bypass

[12:43] lane. You know, one of the nice things

[12:45] with SevenBrew operationally because it

[12:48] doesn't have a a single menu board or

[12:50] now you're seeing a lot of um people go

[12:52] with double menu boards, but it doesn't

[12:53] have a stationary menu board. It has

[12:55] kind of what we call the texture. So

[12:57] people with an iPad that are taking the

[12:59] orders, it allows it allows them to kind

[13:02] of move cars as needed. So you don't

[13:04] have to be at a certain point to take an

[13:07] order. You know, sometimes a texture can walk all the way out to here and

[13:11] take an order. It also allows them to

[13:13] deliver. Again, there's not a pickup

[13:15] window. So, operationally, kind of the

[13:17] three lanes work really well because

[13:19] they can kind of deliver the drinks to

[13:21] the individual lanes and they can they

[13:23] can move vehicles around if needed.

[13:26] Again, a lot of times, you know, that

[13:28] that's not what they like to do. Uh, but

[13:30] it gives them that flexibility versus a

[13:32] kind of a traditional um drive-thru

[13:34] model. So, I know I went through them,

[13:37] you know, relatively quickly. Um, I'm

[13:40] happy to kind of answer any questions.

[13:42] I'm happy to go into any more detail. I

[13:44] can even set up if you give me a minute

[13:46] a side by side if you want me to put two

[13:48] of the layouts next to each other, you

[13:49] know, just for conversation sake as

[13:51] well.

[13:56] » Okay. Um,

[13:58] how would you put them side by side? I

[14:00] think it's an interesting idea because I

[14:03] guess I don't understand all the numbers

[14:05] and which is which because I only have

[14:07] two images on my right package.

[14:09] >> That's that's that's my question. So you

[14:11] went through four planned but you only

[14:13] we only have two diagrams.

[14:15] >> Yeah.

[14:15] >> Okay.

[14:16] >> And I the packaging.

[14:17] >> Yeah.

[14:17] With no numbers on them.

[14:20] >> So the first one he showed was what we

[14:21] showed you last spring when we were

[14:22] working on the text amendment. And the

[14:24] second one he showed you is what we met

[14:26] with the the pound with this summer and

[14:28] they asked us to try to come up with

[14:30] alternatives. So the two drawings that

[14:32] you have in your package are alternative

[14:35] A and alternative B. So it's three and

[14:38] four is what you have. But we can go

[14:40] through all four of them just to make it

[14:42] a little bit more clear for you.

[14:43] Apologize if that was unclear to you in

[14:47] your package. So in essence, I'm just

[14:49] come back. I'm just going to piggy back

[14:51] and sue. So we have the two decisions

[14:53] that you're looking us to to discuss are

[14:56] three and four only though

[14:57] >> or or if you think two works fine. Yeah.

[15:00] >> We're we're we're comfortable with two

[15:02] as well, but we were asked by staff to

[15:04] develop alternatives to number two and

[15:07] so we provided three and four. So these

[15:10] are these are three and four right next

[15:12] to each other.

[15:13] >> Yeah. So again, how is how does this

[15:15] differ from what you saw on the spring

[15:17] and what we showed to Deb in June? And

[15:19] so the big thing here is that we've

[15:21] separated those the the access and

[15:23] entrance on Longville Road. We've

[15:25] created that separation so we have that

[15:27] stop bar. Now

[15:28] >> I think the concern that Deb raised and

[15:30] I think it was a fair concern is this crossesment is really valuable for

[15:35] us for and it's also valuable for this

[15:37] the community to have that. That's a

[15:38] good thing. But when you have people

[15:40] that come in at the light and come into

[15:43] this site, they can't get into the queue

[15:45] right away. They've got to circumn the site to get into the queue, right?

[15:49] >> And so Deb said, could you look at ways

[15:52] to make that movement safer around

[15:54] because you're having driving all the

[15:56] way around to get into the queue. And so

[15:58] what our first option was was to

[16:00] separate the the two access points along

[16:02] Phil Road to have that demarcation of a

[16:05] stop. So you don't have it has people

[16:07] have to stop at that line and make sure

[16:09] that they can flow into this queue. This

[16:12] is a more extreme version four, but it

[16:15] really fixes one of the problems. If you

[16:17] come in at the light, you can get into

[16:18] the queue right away. You don't have to

[16:20] circumn site. I think that's really

[16:23] positive. It also keeps all the all the

[16:25] parking off to one side and segregated

[16:28] from it. So I think there's some real

[16:29] positivity here. It doesn't prevent all

[16:33] circulation from the site. If you come

[16:35] in off of Long Hill Road and you get

[16:37] your coffee, but you want to go out

[16:39] because you're heading west, you're

[16:41] still going to go this way, back through

[16:42] the parking lot and out. So, there'll

[16:44] still be some circulation, but design

[16:48] four here

[16:50] removes a lot of the unnecessary

[16:52] circulation from site. We don't think

[16:54] this is necessarily unsafe. We were just

[16:57] trying to address the concerns of staff

[16:59] is could you make it more efficient? The

[17:02] downside of four is you don't have this

[17:05] pass through lane anymore. You've got

[17:07] three Q- lanes on that side of the

[17:09] building and so there isn't a pass

[17:11] through lane. Um so I think that's a

[17:13] negative to that. Um but again the way

[17:15] [clears throat] Seven Brew works and the

[17:17] way this nonbeater board ICU facility

[17:19] works there's ability to move cars as as

[17:22] Josh testified to we think or works

[17:26] because of the nature of the use. H but

[17:31] going back to the the one on the left.

[17:33] >> Yeah.

[17:34] >> The only reason why that doesn't work as

[17:37] you know coming from the auto parts

[17:39] store is because you're showing cars

[17:41] there optimistically.

[17:44] But I mean it could be that the outer

[17:48] ring is empty.

[17:49] >> Oh it could be empty almost all the

[17:51] time. The out

[17:52] >> No, not that the the car lane. The outer

[17:55] car lane.

[17:56] >> The second lane.

[17:57] >> That ring. Yeah.

[17:58] >> Yeah.

[17:59] >> So, you're optimistically showing it

[18:00] full of cars, which is fine.

[18:02] >> Worst case scenario.

[18:03] >> Yeah. But

[18:05] >> I mean, is that going to happen? I mean,

[18:07] we had a discussion about whether

[18:08] stacking of how many cars you need

[18:12] >> the the the requirements of the

[18:14] regulation is eight. I believe we're

[18:15] showing 15 because we have a traffic

[18:17] study based on actual observations that

[18:21] our most busiest time on that Monday

[18:24] morning at that peak hour we may have 15

[18:27] cars in queue and so we are

[18:29] accommodating our worst [clears throat]

[18:30] Q situation on this site

[18:33] >> and so the the only time when the cross

[18:35] route doesn't work is during that time

[18:39] >> during this time right here.

[18:41] >> Yeah,

[18:42] >> you can still drop. There's still a pass

[18:43] through lane here. You can still do

[18:45] that.

[18:45] >> Oh yeah, you can still do that. But I

[18:46] mean, you know, concerns of staff noted,

[18:50] but because the cars are shown,

[18:53] >> Yeah.

[18:53] >> they can't get into that second lane,

[18:56] >> but but but if it is in that situation

[18:58] and and you get someone coming in from

[19:00] the connector,

[19:01] >> Yeah.

[19:02] >> there is possibly another conflict as

[19:05] they try to circumn this this um site

[19:09] with with people exiting the drive-thru.

[19:11] >> Yeah. Yeah. So,

[19:12] >> and that's why and that's why we address

[19:15] >> the top where they have to cross two

[19:17] lanes of traffic. Yeah, know that's what

[19:19] I was seeing.

[19:20] >> So, you

[19:20] >> Yeah, but yeah, you're going to be

[19:21] stopping in front of Yeah.

[19:23] >> But but there may be a conflict that

[19:24] you're trying to scoop around the films

[19:26] who are in line to come back in line at

[19:28] all.

[19:29] >> But Stephen, you're right. In a non peak

[19:31] hour situation, you could literally come

[19:34] in here and this there's nobody in the

[19:36] queue or there's certainly nobody in the

[19:38] second thing. And you remember we're staffed with readers, you know,

[19:42] people with iPads, they could say just

[19:44] come in and come into the queue right

[19:45] now. But we are unfortunately and you

[19:48] have to do this son. We plan for the

[19:50] worst possible scenario.

[19:52] >> I can help,

[19:53] >> you know, and that's that deep Monday

[19:56] morning, you know, traffic or peak

[19:57] Saturday morning traffic where people

[19:59] are trying to get their orders to get to

[20:00] work.

[20:00] >> Yeah. So that has to occur

[20:02] simultaneously with somebody coming

[20:04] through the cross to have a problem.

[20:05] Right. I mean there there obviously

[20:07] there are issues with that which is why

[20:10] these are here.

[20:11] >> Yeah. And are there barriers between

[20:13] one, two or one, two and three?

[20:15] >> No, they're not physical barriers.

[20:16] >> Not physical barriers.

[20:17] >> No, we have a stripe

[20:18] >> painted lines.

[20:19] >> Um we have anticipated lines as shown on

[20:21] this plan right here. This sort of like

[20:23] aisle line right here. No, there's no

[20:25] physical that we got we have employees

[20:27] walking, taking orders, delivering

[20:30] drinks, getting people out.

[20:32] >> That's how it works. You go to

[20:33] Chick-fil-A that day. I don't know if in

[20:35] Chicklet Chick a lot of Chick-fil-A use

[20:37] this model.

[20:38] >> Yeah, they do in Virginia. Um can I ask

[20:40] a question to Deb? Do you know how many

[20:42] um cars stack can stack up in Dunkin

[20:45] Donuts?

[20:46] >> I do not off the top of my head.

[20:48] >> Just right right past that. Right.

[20:50] >> Because I come down there sometimes and

[20:51] they're stacked up on Route 12.

[20:53] >> They come up

[20:55] as one window though, right?

[20:57] >> Wow. That is true.

[20:58] >> That's true. It's a different business

[20:59] model. I get that. Right.

[21:00] >> And just one lane to come through.

[21:02] >> Yeah. And people are going going inside

[21:04] [clears throat] too, but they do line up

[21:05] in

[21:06] >> we've got some pretty good data in terms

[21:08] of what we expect. Um, we also I was

[21:11] reading through their preliminary draft

[21:13] to say we also have sort of a grand

[21:14] opening plan. So whenever one of these

[21:17] opens, everybody in the world wants to

[21:18] try it for the first time. So the first

[21:20] two weeks of operation, you get higher

[21:22] than normal. So they have extra

[21:23] staffing, extra precautions for those

[21:25] signs. It's sort of like remember when

[21:26] Crispy Cream Donut opened up at Moan,

[21:28] there were lines up the doors. Well,

[21:30] then a couple weeks that goes away. you

[21:31] get back to a normal uh flow. And so we

[21:34] know what those are today. There's so

[21:36] many of these seven food coffee shops

[21:38] around the country. They've got really

[21:39] good data on it. So again, we're

[21:41] designing to be able to accommodate what

[21:44] we expect to be our busiest time with

[21:47] this design.

[21:47] >> So could you share what the what the

[21:50] estimated peak

[21:52] time is in terms of an hourly traffic?

[21:55] How many cars can be going through in

[21:57] the f in the busiest hour of the day?

[22:00] Yeah, Josh, do you have that number? I

[22:02] know I have it in my my book if I can

[22:04] figure it out.

[22:06] >> Yeah, I'm just pulling. I mean, just

[22:08] from a like a projected trip generation

[22:10] standpoint, um

[22:13] you know, the in the peak hour, weekday

[22:16] morning, um you know, we see about you

[22:20] know, 40 trips being generated, you

[22:23] know, over the course of that hour.

[22:24] That's per it uh for the for the use.

[22:30] And what's the average from the order to

[22:32] the delivery? How long does that take?

[22:34] >> It's about um

[22:37] I just want to pull we got some new some

[22:39] new data. So the peak just is between

[22:41] about 8 and 9 a.m. Um and then Saturday

[22:45] is the other peak at 12 to 1. Um the

[22:50] order time is is quick. It's about the

[22:52] average weight's 3 to three and a half

[22:53] minutes. Um you know for

[22:57] >> Yeah.

[22:58] moving them through.

[22:59] >> And how many employees would be walking

[23:01] the site? You said employees will move

[23:03] between cars. How many at peak hours?

[23:06] >> So in a in a you know in a two-lane

[23:09] format there'd be at least two textters.

[23:11] In a threelane format they would likely

[23:13] use three on average. Now kind of to um

[23:17] in terms from an operational some stands

[23:19] do have more texturers. So if you know the initial opening they may

[23:23] have two or three or four you know

[23:26] texturers to kind of help facilitate

[23:27] orders and move and then they have

[23:29] separate um staffing that's at the kind

[23:33] of um pickup area to deliver the drinks.

[23:36] So they kind of have runners and people

[23:38] that deliver the the drinks as well

[23:40] >> coming from inside the shop out.

[23:42] >> Correct. Yeah. That's what's nice. I

[23:45] mean, you know, with, you know, with the plan, you know, whether it be the

[23:50] two-lane or the threelane is um, you

[23:53] know, the delivery or the runner, the

[23:56] person that hands the drink, you know,

[23:58] they can, uh, you know, tell someone to

[24:00] wait or tell someone to go or kind of

[24:03] communicate with the other runners. They

[24:04] all kind of are out there together. They

[24:06] have like a designated standing area to

[24:09] kind of, you know, help ensure people

[24:11] are moving through safely.

[24:13] >> One more question. How does this work in

[24:14] inclement weather, rain or snow? How do

[24:17] the employees move in between cars and

[24:20] that sort of thing?

[24:22] >> No, it's a great question. We have a we

[24:23] have a blurb ready to go. So, you know,

[24:25] 7 Brew, you know, started in Arkansas.

[24:28] They're in Milwaukee. They're in

[24:29] Wisconsin. They're in Wyoming. They're

[24:31] in upstate New York. So, cold areas. Um

[24:34] they all their employees have heated

[24:36] vests um and they have hats and gloves

[24:39] and then they rotate them um more

[24:42] frequently kind of moving texturers

[24:44] inside and and people inside outside. Uh

[24:46] they're also our canopy heater. So the

[24:49] um canopy that overhangs um the

[24:52] drive-thru. You probably have seen it at

[24:53] if you have been to a Chick-fil-A.

[24:54] uses heaters as well for

[24:56] their staff. So that helps too.

[25:00] Mhm.

[25:01] >> So is my understanding of this is four

[25:03] here on the right hand side.

[25:05] >> Yeah.

[25:05] >> Yep. Uh that at peak hour we lose the

[25:08] pass through lane ability.

[25:10] >> Yeah. So that would be the the

[25:11] disadvantage. I think I I like four

[25:13] except that this this lane three is no

[25:17] longer

[25:17] >> Yeah. Because the ability to pass

[25:18] through.

[25:19] >> That's what frightens me a little just a

[25:20] little bit with that because you've got

[25:22] eight cars in a line there.

[25:23] >> Someone gets into that line. You got 24

[25:26] minutes. anything now in that I mean

[25:29] essentially they're at the end of eight

[25:31] cars which are moving at three minutes.

[25:33] >> In my opinion the number three because

[25:37] we separated and we created this stop

[25:39] control. I'm not overly concerned about

[25:42] somebody who comes in at the light and

[25:44] goes around to get into that Q lane. I'm

[25:46] not overly concerned with that movement.

[25:48] is removed from this

[25:50] design because you now you can pull

[25:53] right into the queue.

[25:54] >> But again, that only occurs and you're

[25:56] And number one is really well taken

[25:58] because most of the day you're going to

[26:00] be able to pull on number three, you'll

[26:02] be able to pull in and get right into

[26:03] the queue.

[26:04] >> Yeah.

[26:04] But at at peak potentially, you're

[26:07] like the Taco Bell that's over there,

[26:09] there's no pass through at that Taco

[26:10] Bell. And if they decide to take 40

[26:12] minutes, please don't ask me how I know

[26:14] to get through your order. You're stuck

[26:16] there for 40 minutes

[26:17] >> because you don't have a jeep that the

[26:19] curve. Well, the thing is is that you

[26:21] get into the line and now you're, you

[26:24] know, you've only got a half an hour and

[26:25] you didn't realize it was going to take

[26:27] as long as it does.

[26:28] >> Yeah.

[26:28] >> The only difference I would say is here

[26:29] is our lines are staff.

[26:31] >> No, I get it. And you have, you have the

[26:33] ability to make people

[26:35] >> you can see sort of the pluses and

[26:37] minuses of the plan. And that's why I

[26:39] think Deb and Dave said,

[26:41] >> why don't you tell the commission at

[26:42] least get their input before you decide

[26:45] on either one. Bottom line is we can go

[26:47] with either one. Either one we can make

[26:49] work for us. It's just a question of

[26:50] which one would you rather have. I I

[26:52] personally think this is fine unless you want that ability to get into queue

[26:58] immediately during peak time. Then four

[27:01] will do that for you but it will cut off

[27:03] the pass through.

[27:04] >> I think the pass through lane is going

[27:06] to exist uh 85% of the time anyway with

[27:10] four.

[27:10] >> Yes.

[27:11] >> Yeah. And I

[27:14] is it allowed to be a pass through.

[27:16] >> If there's nobody in there, right? If

[27:18] there's nobody in there, yeah, you could

[27:20] pass right through that lane.

[27:21] >> And how when you're operating some is

[27:24] this are any of these models used

[27:27] anywhere else

[27:28] >> where you have three lanes or two lanes.

[27:31] >> Josh would have to answer whether you

[27:32] have three lane setups anywhere else.

[27:35] >> Yeah, there I believe there is a three

[27:37] stand in Arkansas. Um, so this is a

[27:42] three-lane stand. There's not one in in

[27:43] Connecticut. Now, I will say a lot of,

[27:45] you know, some of the Seven Brews, you

[27:47] know, do operate in three lanes. So, if they have a pass through lane, um,

[27:52] sometimes they can, you know, they would

[27:54] use the pass through lane for ordering

[27:55] if they needed to. U, and two things I

[27:58] wanted to kind of clarify that might

[27:59] help. So, the the 3 to three and a half

[28:02] minutes is the average total weight. So,

[28:04] it's the time someone enters the queue

[28:06] to leaves the queue. So because of the way that they're ordering, it's not

[28:10] order, wait three and a half minutes,

[28:12] next order, three and a half minutes,

[28:13] next order. You know, they're getting in

[28:15] line that total time. That might make us

[28:17] feel a little backward.

[28:19] >> Yeah, it might make us feel better about

[28:21] >> Yeah. No, no, that's fine. I don't that

[28:24] left

[28:25] >> that uh number three. I I really don't

[28:28] like cars

[28:29] >> crossing left across two lanes of

[28:31] traffic and stopping there.

[28:32] >> So, you like number four better?

[28:34] [clears throat]

[28:35] >> Yeah, I think so.

[28:36] I have a question. So let's if we can

[28:38] go to four, right? [clears throat] So I

[28:40] come in through the auto parts store,

[28:42] right? I think I know the algorithm. So

[28:44] I'm not going to get in line one or two.

[28:45] I want line three, right? And are you

[28:48] blocking off line three for me to get

[28:50] into that at some point when we say

[28:52] there's a potential for pass through? So

[28:54] can I jump into at any point when seven

[28:56] brew is open on line three?

[29:00] >> Yeah, I I don't Is there any Would there

[29:02] be any reason why they wouldn't be able

[29:03] to do that?

[29:04] >> [clears throat]

[29:05] >> No, you would someone, you know, someone

[29:07] could enter lane two and three from Long

[29:09] Hill Road or the cross access, which is a benefit because if let's say

[29:14] lane one, you know, did start to fill

[29:16] up, you know, we don't want, you know,

[29:17] we don't want people kind of waiting for

[29:19] lane one. What's nice is that someone

[29:21] coming from long hill can just jump

[29:23] right down and hit lane two or three.

[29:25] >> Okay. But but weren't we saying that the

[29:27] pass through is there for many hours? possible if somebody

[29:34] >> I'm thinking that the situation you know

[29:35] somebody realizes they don't have their

[29:37] wallet with them or somebody is sitting

[29:38] there and go oh my goodness I can't

[29:40] believe how how late it got I think that

[29:42] was the the initial discussion that even

[29:44] when it's full we can accommodate that

[29:46] might not be able to accommodate

[29:47] immediately but we can move people

[29:48] around to get people out if need be

[29:50] because it's a stack line. Yeah.

[29:52] >> But yeah most of the time we're not

[29:54] going to have 15 people in the queue.

[29:55] We're going to have three or four cars

[29:57] in the queue. you probably will all have

[29:59] in lane number one, you know, to have

[30:01] those cars. They'll all be sitting here

[30:03] and waiting for their their their

[30:04] service. It's really just a few times

[30:06] that they number three will be utilized.

[30:09] In fact, in this plan here, we got

[30:12] three, six, seven of the spaces are in

[30:15] lane number three.

[30:18] So, I'm just trying to be explicit here.

[30:20] One more thing. So, I I come in now from

[30:22] Long Hill Road, not the auto parts

[30:24] store. I can bypass one and go to two or

[30:26] three, right? You could absolutely

[30:28] >> it's kind that was kind of personal.

[30:30] >> Yeah.

[30:31] >> No, but I think that was Josh's point is

[30:32] there there's flexibility there. We also

[30:34] have the main staff so people can we can

[30:37] literally have staff references say come

[30:38] right here. We can serve you right here.

[30:40] >> Yeah.

[30:41] >> I'm just trying to figure out the

[30:42] algorithms. Yeah.

[30:45] >> Then someone walks back to the store,

[30:47] gets what they need, then walks back to

[30:49] the

[30:50] >> on the iPad. They take the order and

[30:51] then there's a runner in the store that

[30:53] brings the drink out. So it's all

[30:55] communicated that way. Two different

[30:57] people.

[30:57] >> Different people. Yeah. So, we got

[30:59] basically one person per lane taking

[31:01] orders and we have people inside making

[31:03] orders and bringing them out to the car

[31:05] and delivering.

[31:06] >> It's the same setup as McDonald's. You

[31:07] got someone on the window. You got

[31:08] someone making food and you got a runner

[31:10] going between the two.

[31:12] [laughter]

[31:13] >> Do you have another question?

[31:14] >> McDonald's been around for a hundred

[31:15] years.

[31:17] >> Before you just have another

[31:18] >> Where is the money collected? Josh,

[31:21] where's payment collected?

[31:23] >> Things Everything's digital. You pay on

[31:25] the iPad.

[31:27] >> So when you take the order, you pay

[31:29] right there on the iPad. And then when

[31:31] your drink's ready, you grab it and go.

[31:33] >> So as soon as you give your order,

[31:34] you've already paid.

[31:36] >> Yeah.

[31:36] >> You give your order, you pay, grab your

[31:38] drink, you're you're out the door.

[31:41] >> I got cash.

[31:43] >> So you you can pay cash. Sorry.

[31:48] » And say I thought that was like an

[31:49] offset.

[31:51] >> Um yes. So my question uh going back to

[31:55] when I think the maybe it was even the

[31:58] text amendment but whenever you came

[32:00] first I had brought up the the point

[32:03] that conceptually a future desired state

[32:05] is that this is a more pedestrian

[32:08] >> kind of friendly area and that we would

[32:10] be bringing buildings closer up to where

[32:12] pedestrians are walking. We'd have the

[32:14] ability for them to walk in and not be

[32:16] so car dependent. And so my question I

[32:19] guess is really

[32:21] what do I feel like this is just uh

[32:24] furthering the car dependent uses of

[32:26] what we already have there as opposed to

[32:27] furthering the future end state that we

[32:29] want of being more pedestrian centered

[32:31] and less car dependent.

[32:32] >> They actually have to have pedestrian

[32:34] element to this. That was an addition.

[32:36] So yes and that's an issue that we're

[32:38] still working through. But if you see on

[32:40] this plan and this is not like you see

[32:41] in seven Bruce is we've now added

[32:43] additional seating out front. We have

[32:45] pedestrian and walkway crossing with

[32:47] sidewalk. We're talking about how to

[32:49] make the building more pedestrian

[32:51] friendly and inviting. And we're going

[32:53] to have ability for people just to

[32:55] literally walk into the site and place

[32:57] their orders here. Y

[32:58] >> in this area here, a kiosk area where

[33:00] they can get those orders and get them

[33:02] served right there. So we we we it is

[33:04] absolutely an automobile driven site

[33:06] because it is a facility, but we can't

[33:08] neglect that issue with the MTC. And and

[33:10] so I guess maybe this is just um I I

[33:13] really don't know much about traffic

[33:14] engineering. What would be the concern

[33:17] or the issue with pushing those two uh

[33:20] entrances or curb cuts apart further,

[33:23] bringing it right up to the curb and

[33:24] having more of a horseshoe shape? Aside

[33:26] from the fact that now people can't

[33:28] completely circumn the building because

[33:31] that's that's kind of my problem with

[33:32] this design is that no matter what you

[33:33] do, you've got a weird little building

[33:34] in an aisle separating you from that.

[33:38] There's a reason why one of the things

[33:40] Deb asked us to look at was, well, if

[33:42] this isn't actually an easement, can you

[33:44] move this up like here?

[33:46] >> Great.

[33:46] >> Well, the problem is is whenever you

[33:48] move a curb cut close to the

[33:50] intersection of a light, there becomes

[33:52] traffic issues and conflicts. So, this

[33:54] can't move up otherwise it creates

[33:56] issues with the queue in this line. So,

[33:59] this is actually as far as close to the

[34:01] light as we can basically get it. I

[34:02] think Josh is gonna answer the same

[34:04] thing. why we can't take this and number

[34:06] four take the western in and move it

[34:08] right down here and make it a horseshoe.

[34:11] It's the distance to the traffic light.

[34:12] But I'll let Josh answer that.

[34:15] >> Yeah. No, I think that's I'm just kind

[34:17] of highlighting you can kind of see

[34:18] where that existing signal is. We we

[34:20] really want to, you know, we want to

[34:22] push that ingress as far away as we can.

[34:25] You know, today that having this wide

[34:26] open driveway kind of inside of the

[34:29] signal creates a dangerous condition for

[34:31] the gas station. Um, so this will be an

[34:34] improvement. So that's really the where

[34:36] the placement of this comes is is kind

[34:37] of being able to move it as close to the

[34:40] signal as we can while protecting the

[34:42] equipment and kind of still helping

[34:43] facilitate that that ingress.

[34:47] >> How will people know that that's even an

[34:50] option to get in that way? Is there

[34:52] signage back there or something that

[34:54] >> Oh, through the auto parts store.

[34:55] >> Yeah, I mean

[34:57] >> there there isn't signage there, but I

[34:59] think a lot of these things people will

[35:00] learn as they use them. I assume

[35:02] [clears throat] that most people who are

[35:03] unfamiliar will be using our long hill

[35:05] road access when they realize that that

[35:08] easement exists where that where that

[35:09] cross connection exists and particularly

[35:12] because they want a light to get out

[35:13] because they want to get the left. They

[35:14] don't want to be forced to take away.

[35:16] They'll use it just by frequency of use.

[35:19] They'll get get familiar with it. And I

[35:21] think that's how it's supposed to be.

[35:23] >> Is the easement going to be are we going

[35:25] to get an easement or are you guys going

[35:27] to provide an easement on your hand?

[35:29] >> Third party easement with a

[35:30] nonaffiliated party. My client is has no

[35:34] problem with that. You can actually your

[35:35] regulations um allow you to require

[35:38] cross easements of the applicant. So we

[35:40] could offer a processment to the audit

[35:43] book par. What we you don't have the

[35:45] authority to do neither do we is to

[35:47] force the auto store to give us

[35:49] >> No, we don't. But we would I I would

[35:51] think that we would want that from your

[35:54] applicant already.

[35:56] >> And then just like you're here now

[35:58] standing before us when they come to us

[36:01] someday perhaps

[36:02] >> we used to do that when I was a planner

[36:03] in Norwich. We used to had a book of all

[36:06] the cross seasons we attached that we'd

[36:08] ever gotten. And so that you knew when

[36:09] somebody came in to like do a facade

[36:11] change or do new landscaping their be

[36:14] like finally you're not going to do

[36:15] that. We want this crossment because we

[36:16] have the other half of it on the other

[36:18] side.

[36:18] >> No, we're government. We're patient.

[36:21] [laughter]

[36:21] >> It actually it's actually a really good

[36:23] thing to have those cross seedments

[36:25] between properties because now you have

[36:27] people that can move between the

[36:28] properties without putting back on road.

[36:30] That's that's great design.

[36:34] And again, one of the reasons we want to

[36:35] preserve this curve cut. One of the

[36:36] easiest things for us to do is to close

[36:38] that curve cut because we don't have to

[36:40] worry about how you get in. You get in

[36:42] one way, you get out one way. But that

[36:44] doesn't that cuts off access to the

[36:46] light and neither.

[36:50] » So, how do we how do we make the best

[36:52] and most efficient design for the layout

[36:54] while preserving that cross connection?

[36:56] That's really the the design challenge

[36:58] that we've had. Well, I guess I have a

[37:00] question. So, either one of these would

[37:02] be acceptable to staff.

[37:05] [clears throat]

[37:05] >> I mean, I think as we said, they both

[37:07] have some pros and

[37:09] >> cons. Exactly.

[37:10] >> Well, then to me, this is like a

[37:12] business decision. It's like

[37:13] >> Yep.

[37:14] >> I can I like number four for a lot of

[37:16] reasons, but I could see weaknesses,

[37:18] too. But at this point, if we're gonna

[37:20] allow both of them,

[37:21] >> right,

[37:21] >> then why don't we put the ball in your

[37:23] court because you I mean, you folks know

[37:25] a lot more about your business than we

[37:26] do.

[37:27] >> We do. But we also, you guys have been

[37:29] really really supportive of this project

[37:31] and we just wanted to be able to have a

[37:34] dialogue with you, have your feedback.

[37:36] >> So if our feedback um is we don't care

[37:39] that much, right?

[37:40] >> Well, if we care

[37:43] reasonable, right?

[37:45] >> We're reasonable on either one is fine.

[37:48] I have to say personally, I like four

[37:50] better. I I personally like four better.

[37:52] for better as a zoning person and as

[37:55] potential customer. I like four better

[37:57] because hopefully no influencers tell

[37:59] you about um lane three and that way I

[38:01] can hop into it myself, right? Um the

[38:04] other thing too is it is my special

[38:06] permit for that too. So in special

[38:08] permit you have greater discretion to

[38:10] condition approvals. So we could work

[38:12] into our operational plans issues

[38:14] regarding lane three. So if lane three

[38:16] is not needed for the queue, we can we

[38:18] can designate that as pass through at

[38:20] that time. we can work that into our

[38:22] proposal.

[38:23] >> Yeah, that's what if you could do that.

[38:24] And I also like the idea of the three

[38:26] lanes. Seems like you're able to push

[38:29] the cars closer to the exit and there's

[38:31] more room I

[38:33] >> for backing up and everything else. And

[38:35] I really don't like that with four. How

[38:38] I don't see where there's going to be

[38:40] much going into that uh stop

[38:45] bar that's there or whatever.

[38:46] >> Only if you pick up your order. The only

[38:49] people that are going to do that, the

[38:50] people who pick up their order, but they

[38:52] want to leave through the light

[38:54] >> and go left.

[38:55] >> So they circle around,

[38:57] >> they come back and they come through

[38:59] here and then they go out to like they

[39:00] want to go west. What I like about 42 U

[39:03] Michael is you your parking is

[39:05] segregated somewhat where here the

[39:08] parking is sort of the back behind the

[39:10] dumpster. I like I think this setup is

[39:12] safer in my opinion.

[39:13] >> That's what I I would defer. I would say

[39:16] that if

[39:17] >> you know I would say they go with four.

[39:19] >> Yep.

[39:20] >> But throwing in my devil's advocate.

[39:22] >> Yeah.

[39:23] >> Four for those times. Did you say it

[39:25] occurs every Monday morning?

[39:28] >> Sure.

[39:29] >> Between 8 and 9, Tuesday too.

[39:31] >> Y

[39:32] >> Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and

[39:34] Saturday.

[39:35] >> So during all those times, three chucker

[39:38] block lanes and no one can get out if

[39:41] they want to. and and that is the

[39:43] downside of for my only response would

[39:46] be is these are not unmanned unmanaged

[39:49] lanes. We have in that situation we'll

[39:52] have at least three people out in the

[39:53] field to help anybody who needs to get

[39:54] out.

[39:57] >> It's not perfect,

[39:58] >> but I think it's I think it may be more

[40:00] efficient than three. You can work with

[40:02] either one.

[40:02] >> Not it's not horrible, you know, it's

[40:04] not a you know, Pound GameStop. But

[40:09] >> I have one other question. So with the

[40:11] seven or eight parking spots, are those

[40:12] staff parking spots? So you never move

[40:15] like a McDonald's say, "Hey, listen. Go

[40:16] over to that spot and wait for your

[40:18] coffee or something like that."

[40:19] >> Does that ever happen?

[40:20] >> No. No.

[40:21] >> No. We don't do that. That's not how it

[40:23] works.

[40:29] » Yeah.

[40:30] >> Fenty has a comment.

[40:32] >> Oh, yes.

[40:33] >> Thank you. Just I just have a question

[40:34] just like about the stuff earlier just

[40:36] like yes that's um actually seven

[40:37] parking for the stuff but I'm just

[40:39] thinking about how many stuff you're

[40:41] going to have like when it's the busiest

[40:42] time when like three people have to

[40:44] deliver outside and then how many inside

[40:47] I mean I was thinking um the overflow of

[40:49] the employees going to park where are

[40:51] they going to be?

[40:53] Yeah. So they, you know, on average they

[40:55] have about six to eight staff members. U

[40:58] not all staff take um their own vehicle.

[41:02] Um they have kind of a wide mix of um

[41:05] uses. So on sites where they have, you

[41:07] know, limited parking and you know,

[41:08] let's say during the the opening phase

[41:11] that they, you know, they need to bring

[41:13] additional staff, you know, they either

[41:14] work with other local businesses or they

[41:17] ensure employees can take ride share

[41:19] options or things like that from their

[41:21] home to the site. um you know knowing

[41:23] that it's again those seven parking

[41:25] spaces are only for employees

[41:28] >> and another thing is I was just thinking

[41:29] about you know when you go to the bank

[41:31] and then they have like you know three

[41:32] four five lanes depending which bank um

[41:34] you know you go uh but one of the one I

[41:37] usually go ter in um Noritz I think they

[41:40] had five so you can have the lights kind

[41:42] of like you know turn on like you know

[41:44] um you know green where you can you know

[41:47] go in there and if it's red there's no

[41:49] service I mean are you guys going to be

[41:51] able Do you use that? I mean,

[41:54] >> when it's not busy,

[41:55] >> I don't think we have any structures

[41:57] that we get lights on. I mean, it's all

[42:00] open. But the big thing is we have

[42:02] people actually out on the lanes to be

[42:05] basically direct traffic. So unlike the

[42:08] bank where there is nobody outside, you

[42:10] have everybody is the teller behind the

[42:11] window. We have actual employees out in

[42:14] the drive-through lanes taking orders,

[42:17] directing traffic, addressing concerns,

[42:19] somebody who needs to leave. We got that

[42:21] staffed here.

[42:24] >> Got it. Thank you.

[42:25] >> Thank you. Nice to meet you.

[42:28] >> Anybody else?

[42:30] >> Just just a quick back of the envelope

[42:32] calculation. I think Josh said there

[42:34] they were estimating a max about 40 an

[42:37] hour. If it takes three and a half

[42:39] minutes to get a coffee, that's about 11

[42:42] cars at any point in time max. So

[42:46] >> 140 minutes. Yeah.

[42:47] >> Total minutes. Yeah. Right.

[42:50] So, you know, this shows 15. So, it's

[42:53] going to be less than that even at max

[42:55] time,

[42:56] >> right?

[42:58] [clears throat]

[42:58] >> That's spread out if everything the

[43:00] entire hour, right? But we got some good

[43:02] built.

[43:03] >> Yeah. I look I did a variation. I said

[43:04] there could be

[43:05] >> Yep.

[43:06] >> Absolutely.

[43:08] >> Statistically, it looks good, right,

[43:09] Jim?

[43:11] >> So, what else do you want us to do at

[43:13] this point?

[43:13] >> Nothing. Nothing else. Want to have a

[43:15] conversation. I think that the majority

[43:17] of the board likes um number four

[43:20] >> um and that we can we'll also talk

[43:22] operationally about how we can deal with

[43:24] lane three as pass through at times when

[43:26] we don't need it. So we'll talk

[43:28] internally about that and see if we can

[43:29] accommodate that for you as well.

[43:30] >> Yeah, that seems like something that you

[43:32] could almost do with you know

[43:34] >> and we do have some

[43:35] >> describing it as a you know even if the

[43:37] staff who are working out there know to

[43:40] keep everybody to the left. Well,

[43:42] definitely we're going to we do have

[43:43] some we're working on um we we have a

[43:46] prototype architecture which we've

[43:48] already left and we're doing more

[43:50] customized architecture for this

[43:51] location. We got some more work to do.

[43:53] We also have some work to do with the

[43:54] landscaping plan. Um the projects we're

[43:57] working with and on that you know

[44:01] they've been very helpful and very

[44:02] supportive.

[44:03] >> Where I was going to say one question.

[44:05] Where are the heaters that you actually

[44:06] have that you mentioned during the cold

[44:08] weather? Are they shown on there? Mhm.

[44:11] >> Are they over the stop signs?

[44:12] >> Yeah, we don't we don't show them, but

[44:14] there is this is a

[44:16] >> kind of a a canopy here.

[44:18] >> Okay.

[44:18] >> So, they're located kind of positioned

[44:20] under under here for staff.

[44:22] >> Okay, got it. Thank you.

[44:24] >> Those hand warmers you get at Walmart.

[44:27] >> Bunch of pieces.

[44:29] >> Infrared things.

[44:30] >> So, a can it be like a carport? Like a

[44:35] more like an awning. What's it What's

[44:37] that actually going to look like?

[44:38] >> Hard structure. hard like

[44:42] >> correct like a physical a physical

[44:44] canopy that extends over the

[44:46] drive-through lanes. I was just grabbing

[44:48] again the architecture is being

[44:51] um worked on. I was seeing if I had a

[44:54] >> Is it like is it like canvas though or

[44:56] like

[44:57] >> No, it's like solid.

[44:58] >> No, solid structure similar to the idea

[45:00] that you see at a you know a bank or

[45:02] another where Chick-fil-A has the

[45:04] pre-fabricated kind of metal canopy.

[45:07] It's a similar That's your structure for

[45:09] the lights that Fenty was talking about.

[45:11] >> Yeah. That would be at the end before

[45:14] rather than the beginning where you

[45:16] would be able to see. But yeah,

[45:19] >> does the fire marshall look at this?

[45:20] >> Oh, yeah.

[45:21] Definitely.

[45:22] >> And because it looks and especially like

[45:23] when you when there's a canopy, right?

[45:25] It's got to be high.

[45:27] >> And if that thing is What happens if

[45:29] something goes wrong and there's 30 cars

[45:32] in this thing?

[45:33] >> Well, those are the things we have to

[45:34] work with the firearm.

[45:35] >> Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. No, I trust

[45:37] that. That's

[45:38] >> But the other thing, too, is you don't

[45:39] want to get you don't want to get a

[45:41] truck too close to a building. So,

[45:43] you're probably not fighting a fire in

[45:46] the site. You're probably fighting it on

[45:47] streets or

[45:50] just stops anyway.

[45:52] >> And like if they do end up getting a

[45:55] quite a pile up and where it's starting

[45:56] to spill into 12, people are just going

[45:58] to bypass the business.

[46:01] » That's probably

[46:03] >> it's Yeah. What's happeniently?

[46:07] We aren't going to be able to compete.

[46:08] Nobody's going to stop there.

[46:10] >> And this isn't their first rodeo, so

[46:13] this week.

[46:15] >> Okay. Great for the time. Thank you very

[46:17] much. I really appreciate it. Look

[46:18] forward to seeing you again real soon.

[46:20] Thank you.

[46:20] >> Okay. Thank you. Appreciate it.

[46:23] >> Great. Thank you.

[46:27] >> Okay.

[46:28] >> There's going to be

[46:30] the easement of something that we're

[46:31] going to be able to work on.

[46:33] >> Yep.

[46:33] >> Yeah. So definitely I'm sure that you

[46:36] guys already were probably

[46:37] >> I mean definitely obviously with the

[46:38] applicant which was mentioned and then

[46:39] obviously we'll we'll try our best with

[46:41] the other one too as well.

[46:42] >> A decent relationship with

[46:44] >> No, it seems like there

[46:44] >> so we'll see.

[46:47] >> Y okay next missing middle housing

[46:50] update. Bryce, you're on

[46:53] >> you don't mind? I'm going to present

[46:55] just absolutely.

[46:58] >> You have to introduce yourself though

[46:59] and give your address.

[47:01] >> No, no, no.

[47:02] 134. [laughter]

[47:05] >> That works. That works.

[47:07] >> I got to get him to stop sharing.

[47:11] » Remove. Oh, there it is. Thank you.

[47:13] >> Y

[47:13] >> nice Josh.

[47:18] Share. So, Bryce, this is where we

[47:21] couldn't hear you or you couldn't hear

[47:22] us. This is a continuation. It's your

[47:24] fault. Started.

[47:26] We

[47:26] >> accept responsibility.

[47:28] Are you gonna start from the beginning?

[47:30] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[47:33] Okay.

[47:37] » Oh yeah, we can minimize minimize spenty

[47:39] too.

[47:41] >> Or we can move her around the the

[47:42] neighborhood.

[47:43] >> Move in the neighborhood.

[47:44] >> This is always my problem with the

[47:46] presentation. There's always something

[47:47] behind

[47:48] >> you can minimize.

[47:49] >> Yeah.

[47:51] If if there are questions baked in, just jump off mute

[47:56] because I don't think I'll be able to

[47:57] see you. We'll

[47:58] >> probably We'll keep track. Yeah. Okay.

[48:01] All right. So, can we do it right? There

[48:05] we go. Okay. Um, so we started this back

[48:09] on September 8th, but due to some

[48:10] technical difficulties, we had to move

[48:12] this to tonight. Um,

[48:15] thanks to the 98. So, I just want to

[48:18] level this report out is both a good

[48:22] precursor to Thursday. Uh, would have

[48:24] been nice if we had this a couple weeks

[48:25] ago so we had a little bit more time.

[48:27] Um, but this is also a deliverable part

[48:29] of the scope. So, LGCC the funer of this

[48:32] project is requiring us to send his

[48:34] report out. Um, John Miner is going to

[48:36] be doing a report out to the the the

[48:39] council as well as part of the the

[48:40] scope. So, this is a deliverable. Um,

[48:43] and this is really kind of the last last

[48:46] opportunity we have to do this.

[48:48] And so, this this report out is going to

[48:51] basically recap this project, right? All

[48:54] the the various deliverables that we've

[48:56] had um throughout the project. Sue, I

[48:58] know you asked for um the scope. I'll

[49:00] give it at the end, I suppose.

[49:02] >> Yeah, that's because we're gonna be

[49:04] we're beating on a lot of the same scope

[49:06] anyway. Um but yeah, we're

[49:08] [clears throat] going to be going

[49:09] through the deliverables, engagement

[49:10] thinking, all that kind of stuff, and

[49:12] then really for what these workshops are

[49:14] going to look like throughout uh the

[49:16] fall. Um so I wanted to just reiterate

[49:20] level set kind of what this project is.

[49:22] This was a a $350,000

[49:24] grant from the Department of Defense via

[49:27] OOLTCC

[49:29] um which is kind of the community um

[49:31] kind of arm of of the Department of

[49:33] Defense. Um basically the town crafted

[49:36] an RFP around middle housing that

[49:39] spanned eight main tasks each

[49:42] deliverables each with separate kind of

[49:44] subtasks, right? Um we received 13

[49:48] responses to this RFP. So, it was

[49:49] actually pretty well um responded to. We

[49:52] went through a tough process. Uh Steve,

[49:54] you were on the the selection committee

[49:56] for that. I'm sure you remember. Um and

[49:58] then we chose sports and witness team um

[50:02] in May of 2025 to work on this project.

[50:04] Um this consulting team, you know, we

[50:07] call just really fantastic um collection

[50:09] of people. Obviously, of course, where

[50:12] you're familiar with via the VCD, but

[50:15] Union Studios who've done a lot of work.

[50:17] Um, MTC, NBC, New Master Plan in that

[50:19] area.

[50:20] >> Guidelines,

[50:20] >> design guidelines.

[50:22] >> Um, as well as De Mo Associates who've

[50:24] done a lot of the great research um for

[50:26] the town in the past. Um, along with

[50:29] newcomers, Kronberg urbanists and

[50:31] architects who, you know, he's kind of

[50:33] come in and out of this project,

[50:34] Ericberg as well as Barrett Planning

[50:36] Group. Um and so this began, you know,

[50:40] the work began basically immediately,

[50:43] right? We had to get this future housing

[50:44] demand supply study done. This was that

[50:47] 2025 uh regional demand study, which

[50:50] I'll go into in a little bit more

[50:51] detail, but just to reiterate, you know,

[50:53] I'm sure we've all talked about this to

[50:55] death. Um before we get any further,

[50:57] middle housing, obviously we're

[50:59] referring to everything between single

[51:00] family home and larger kind of apartment

[51:03] buildings. This is kind of a contextual

[51:06] definition. There's no hard and fast,

[51:08] you know, legal definition of middle

[51:10] housing. Even state statute has varying

[51:12] definitions of of middle housing, trans

[51:14] middle housing, all that kind of stuff.

[51:16] But for the Graten context, we were kind

[51:18] of defining it between accessory

[51:20] dwelling units, right? So, a single

[51:22] family and an accessory dwelling units,

[51:24] two two units on on a lot all the way up

[51:26] to what we were calling captain's

[51:29] houses, right? So in Newport you would

[51:31] call them probably like manor houses or subdivided kind of um mansions and

[51:36] things like that. Um important note that

[51:39] you know the other housing types still

[51:41] have a piece of of the fabric and

[51:44] bottom. Right. So again the deliverables

[51:47] that we had um that we were working on

[51:51] were uh we started off with the housing

[51:53] demand supply study. Um we moved into

[51:57] and I just want to quickly Was

[52:02] it

[52:02] >> good?

[52:03] >> Yeah, it's distracting.

[52:08] Let's see.

[52:22] There's a missing slide. Yeah. Okay,

[52:24] hang on.

[52:27] Can you press this again?

[52:42] I'm going to stop sharing my computer.

[52:45] >> Yeah, you you've already hit stop

[52:46] sharing.

[52:47] >> Yeah. Okay, let me stop sharing real

[52:49] quick. I'm going to go on this computer

[52:50] real quick through Zoom, but I'm going

[52:52] to continue. So, I'm just going to back

[52:55] up real quick and just

[52:58] >> minimize this. All right.

[52:59] >> Yeah. No, that's fine.

[53:01] Back up real quick to talk about a

[53:03] little bit more about the project and

[53:05] its contents. So, this project exists um

[53:10] under the framework of the compatible

[53:11] use plan, which is basically the new

[53:13] iteration of the the JUS. the JLUS um

[53:16] back in 2017 was kind of the plan that

[53:20] came out of OLDCC with CCOG leading that

[53:26] um seeks to ensure that all the base

[53:29] operations uh are compatible with the

[53:31] host community. So this project is

[53:34] actually a sub project of uh

[53:39] that new compatible use plan. So, I

[53:42] don't know if anyone was able to go to

[53:44] that February meeting back in 2026. That

[53:47] was like the compatible use plan um

[53:51] for

[53:52] uh via the the COG, but this project

[53:56] I think the has the COG finished their

[53:58] compatible use plan yet?

[54:00] >> I I have not seen the funding.

[54:01] >> You haven't seen it?

[54:02] >> Yeah.

[54:03] But this all all the funding is is

[54:06] through this same

[54:10] um bucket. I'm just hoping

[54:13] quick.

[54:15] >> All right. Thank you.

[54:25] And [clears throat]

[54:27] there we go. So

[54:29] we need

[54:35] just promote.

[54:41] I apologize about that.

[54:49] All right.

[54:58] So, we just talked about the

[54:59] cup. Um, so where does this project fit

[55:02] in? Obviously, we talked about we talked

[55:04] a lot about metal housing throughout the

[55:06] PCD um update process. We tried to

[55:08] integrate it as much as possible, but

[55:10] obviously there was some limited but

[55:12] attempted coordination with the climate

[55:13] action plan as much as it was um kind of

[55:16] appropriate as well as coordinating with

[55:18] those statutory changes that are

[55:20] required via PA25-1

[55:23] um that we talked about at our last

[55:25] meeting. Um unlike the PCD though this

[55:28] is the townled project. We have a lot of

[55:30] touch points. We had a lot of touch

[55:32] points with the PCC um throughout you

[55:34] know we started talking about the

[55:35] methodology from previous housing demand

[55:38] and supply studies to this one. Um all

[55:41] the public meetings all the public

[55:42] outreach um but really the project scope

[55:45] and deliverable tasks were structured by

[55:46] the town and then consulting consultants

[55:49] working with the town have been working

[55:50] on fulfilling those deliverables. Right.

[55:53] Um and final deliverables. This is, you

[55:56] know, why we're here tonight. The final

[55:57] deliverables obviously call for um this

[56:01] set of recommendations being made to the

[56:03] PCC. Again, there is nothing in this

[56:06] scope, nothing in this grant that

[56:07] requires the PCC to do anything with

[56:09] those recommendations, right? The

[56:10] recommendations just need to be made.

[56:13] Um, [clears throat and cough] and so let

[56:15] me go back to this. So, uh, just

[56:16] knocking through the deliverables, we

[56:18] did the housing demand and supply study

[56:20] back in September. that was released

[56:22] September 2025, so a year ago now. Um,

[56:25] moving into the missing middle housing

[56:27] inventory typologies. Um, so that's

[56:29] where Union went around town and

[56:31] basically took stock of all the

[56:32] different um, examples of missing middle

[56:34] housing to kind of start informing what

[56:36] we might want in the future. Um, and

[56:39] then in March of 2026,

[56:41] there was the opportunity sites, which

[56:43] then took those examples and started

[56:46] [clears throat] to show what a site

[56:47] layout could look like on various

[56:48] hypothetical um, sites throughout the

[56:51] town. Um, and then tools and approaches

[56:55] to promote housing options. I believe

[56:56] that was in June. Um, that was our last

[56:59] public meeting um, over at Thrive. And

[57:01] that basically took all of the feedback

[57:03] we've heard to date and started to kind

[57:06] of formulate them into a series of

[57:08] approaches that could get to the results

[57:10] that people were asking for and that the

[57:13] town kind of knew they had to get to um

[57:15] but do it in a a way that responded

[57:17] directly to feedback we've got

[57:19] throughout the project. Um and then that

[57:21] leads us into recommended regulatory

[57:23] changes which need to be done in

[57:25] December 2026. This is a good time to

[57:27] mention that this grant extended to it

[57:30] was originally due to to complete by

[57:33] June 30th of 2026, but because of the

[57:37] government shutdown, there was no

[57:39] communication between us and the DoD or

[57:41] anything like that. So, we got an

[57:43] extension uh through the end of December

[57:45] for that. So, that pushed out some of

[57:47] our deliverables as well as that final

[57:49] deliverable. I want to touch real quick

[57:50] on buildout scenarios because we've

[57:52] talked about that kind of throughout the

[57:54] project, right? So what would these

[57:55] recommendations look like in buildout

[57:57] scenarios? Um that was a very very

[58:00] tricky deliverable for us. Um from the

[58:02] consultant side, they went down this

[58:04] path using ArcGIS that kind of promised

[58:07] to have the capabilities of doing a

[58:09] townwide buildout scenario or analysis

[58:12] and it just didn't it just wasn't able

[58:14] to do that. It was built more for denser

[58:17] cities, right, that had a lot more

[58:19] spatial data than I think we had at the

[58:20] time. Um, so then we kind of backed up

[58:23] and tried a different approach just kind

[58:24] of doing spreadsheets and looking at lot

[58:27] sizes, but there just wasn't enough

[58:29] context. And so we pivoted then into

[58:32] kind of a more contextual approach using

[58:35] smaller geographies um throughout town.

[58:38] So, you know, kind of backing in, we we

[58:42] looked at Quantic Bridge originally and

[58:44] then when the Flume um and the PCD was

[58:46] adopted, it kind of theoretically gave

[58:49] us those few geographies throughout town

[58:52] that would really make sense to dive in

[58:53] deeper to see what this could look like.

[58:55] Um, and so because that was just a

[58:58] moving target throughout and because

[59:00] ultimately I think we we recognized that

[59:02] doing buildout scenarios without your

[59:03] input as to kind of what you were

[59:05] interested in in terms of, you know, are

[59:08] you interested in cottage communities?

[59:09] Are you interested in pursuing, you

[59:11] know, changing some regs around

[59:14] multi-unit conditions and things like

[59:15] that without knowing that, it would have

[59:17] been kind of weird just to do a series

[59:19] of buildout scenarios on recommendations

[59:20] you may or may not have been interested

[59:22] in pursuing. So, we did kind of a test

[59:25] buildout scenario and then just kind of

[59:28] left it at that and wanted to wait and

[59:30] we've got KUA beginning to work on kind

[59:33] of setting the framework for the rest of

[59:34] them once we get some more feedback um

[59:37] throughout these workshops. So, I just

[59:38] wanted to

[59:39] >> So, what was the time frame on that?

[59:41] Because at one point an algorithm was

[59:43] given to the town council price and how

[59:47] did that um how did that tie to the

[59:50] buildout?

[59:52] Do you remember that? So what was um

[59:55] part of the POCD we were given um not

[59:59] this project as far as some some

[1:00:01] increased densities.

[1:00:02] >> Mhm.

[1:00:03] >> Right.

[1:00:03] >> Oh yeah. Yeah. No, that was not tied to

[1:00:06] buildout at all. Yeah. Yeah. that that

[1:00:09] was [clears throat]

[1:00:12] I think just imagining what

[1:00:15] certain areas or certain zones could

[1:00:17] accommodate based on water, sewer, uh

[1:00:20] proximity to commercial things like

[1:00:22] that. Um but it it had no bearing on

[1:00:25] what the buildout scenarios were at that

[1:00:28] point in time. There was no

[1:00:29] communication between them. Um and so as

[1:00:32] you probably know, there was tons of

[1:00:33] engagement. I think we probably did more

[1:00:35] engagement than we've done in a long

[1:00:37] time um on this project. So all of the

[1:00:39] walking tours, presentations to

[1:00:41] different ABCs. So there was council

[1:00:42] presentations, presentations to you

[1:00:44] guys, RTM um went to conservation

[1:00:47] commission um and then tableabling um at

[1:00:51] various community um events. We I think

[1:00:53] we did national night out was our most

[1:00:55] recent one.

[1:00:56] >> Couple of churches, public meetings of

[1:00:58] course. Yeah, we we did a lot of kind of

[1:01:00] interest group. If they invited us, we

[1:01:02] would do presentations, right? We had

[1:01:03] like a road show deck that we were

[1:01:04] using. Um, and that led me to my first

[1:01:08] question stop. Um, if you guys can hold,

[1:01:12] if there is nothing pressing, we can

[1:01:14] continue before we get into some more

[1:01:16] media. I just kind of wanted to set the

[1:01:17] stage. I guess [clears throat] I'll go

[1:01:20] back to that question I raised when the

[1:01:22] Zoom blew up I guess at the last meeting

[1:01:26] [clears throat]

[1:01:27] but in all of our um discussions over

[1:01:30] the I guess more than a year now

[1:01:33] and those nice interesting very

[1:01:36] interesting tours that you gave in

[1:01:38] different neighborhoods and everything I

[1:01:40] think we looking at housing is certainly

[1:01:43] always interesting um but I never saw a

[1:01:46] really practical ical viable plan

[1:01:50] regarding the exact zoning that would

[1:01:52] result in housing change in a realistic

[1:01:55] time frame at a reasonable cost. And to

[1:01:59] get [clears throat] back to the cost

[1:02:00] problem, I think um I think it's it's

[1:02:04] really a difficult situation here. Um

[1:02:07] this whole studies and everything were

[1:02:09] designed before economics and really

[1:02:11] EB's approach to the region changed

[1:02:14] dramatically.

[1:02:15] And so I [clears throat] think you have

[1:02:16] a a whole different set of really needs

[1:02:20] resulting. I mean the fact that Canada

[1:02:23] who does [clears throat] most of our

[1:02:24] framing lumber um the prices on that are

[1:02:27] going over the roof. So I

[1:02:29] [clears throat] think we have to ask

[1:02:30] ourselves it's I mean we have our ADUs.

[1:02:33] They were deemed I guess too expensive

[1:02:35] by a lot of people. We've only done I

[1:02:37] guess six of them. Cottage communities.

[1:02:39] I guess we did that. We all thought that

[1:02:41] was a great idea. So that's

[1:02:43] [clears throat] your first two. um big

[1:02:45] items on your missing middle but

[1:02:48] [clears throat] they haven't really

[1:02:49] gained traction and if the pricing is

[1:02:53] too high how are we ever going to gain

[1:02:55] traction on any of this I guess

[1:02:58] >> so as part of one of the last

[1:03:01] deliverables we had

[1:03:03] >> um KUA created this attainability

[1:03:06] calculator that took assumed land costs

[1:03:09] took assumed soft costs horizontal cost

[1:03:11] so like building costs and and

[1:03:13] acquisition costs design costs

[1:03:15] and took number of units it would take

[1:03:17] to actually make this stuff attainable.

[1:03:19] So, it looked at all those things that

[1:03:21] you're talking about from a builder's

[1:03:23] perspective, but also integrated um

[1:03:25] median incomes using HUD data, also

[1:03:28] integrated as an different option,

[1:03:30] median incomes using Grten specific

[1:03:33] census data as well. Um, so to your

[1:03:36] point, yes, I mean construction costs

[1:03:38] are increasing substantially, borrowing

[1:03:41] costs are increasing substantially, but

[1:03:44] I think we've done a lot of the homework

[1:03:48] and EB is hiring more than the

[1:03:51] projections they gave us in the 2025

[1:03:53] study. So that demand is gone up since

[1:03:56] we even did that study. And

[1:04:00] a lot [clears throat] of I think the

[1:04:02] work that you want to see is the work

[1:04:05] that Horsely Whitten's going to present

[1:04:07] at Thursday's workshop to really start,

[1:04:09] right? Because if you remember that that

[1:04:12] last public meeting at Thrive was really

[1:04:15] these are the things that people are

[1:04:16] asking for, right? Cottage communities,

[1:04:19] more accessible ADUs, that smaller scale

[1:04:21] housing. and then Horsey Whit and the

[1:04:24] consultants really worked to be like

[1:04:25] this is this is the menu of options or

[1:04:27] approaches we could take without giving

[1:04:29] specific you know zoning recommendations

[1:04:31] at that point. So what Thursday is going

[1:04:34] to be and what the ensuing workshops are

[1:04:36] going to be is actually kind of putting

[1:04:38] the pedal to the metal, having those

[1:04:39] discussions with you kind of what are

[1:04:41] these priorities for you? What are you

[1:04:43] hearing? What would you like to see more

[1:04:44] of? And then also level setting to your

[1:04:48] point about the financials like okay but

[1:04:50] what's what how can we make this

[1:04:52] attainable? How can we make this work?

[1:04:53] >> I don't think I don't think any of it's

[1:04:55] attainable.

[1:04:56] >> And that's your opinion. That's your

[1:04:58] opinion.

[1:04:59] >> This is not my opinion because I really

[1:05:00] don't know. I'm just reading what

[1:05:02] experts are saying, the Wall Street

[1:05:04] Journal, New York Times, whatever. And I

[1:05:06] wish that were not true, believe me.

[1:05:08] >> And maybe unless you go to a real like

[1:05:11] a, you know, modular type home scenario,

[1:05:16] I haven't seen anything

[1:05:17] >> Yeah.

[1:05:17] >> that would um be attainable.

[1:05:20] >> Well, people people are building

[1:05:22] apartment buildings

[1:05:24] >> and [clears throat] it's profitable.

[1:05:26] >> Yeah.

[1:05:26] >> You know.

[1:05:26] >> Yeah. And this is why we retain the

[1:05:28] experts on the consulting group too

[1:05:30] because they are experts nationally in

[1:05:32] their field.

[1:05:32] >> That's not missing middle.

[1:05:34] >> Well, [clears throat] I'm just saying

[1:05:36] from a building standpoint, but

[1:05:38] >> what I would like to see is, you know,

[1:05:41] cost per square foot of all these

[1:05:43] different options. Y

[1:05:45] >> and then see, you know, I mean, I I

[1:05:49] agree with Sue in part that, you know,

[1:05:52] there's going to be certain things that

[1:05:53] are just, you know, nobody's going to

[1:05:55] build because it doesn't make sense.

[1:05:57] >> Yeah.

[1:05:57] And and that's why we've

[1:05:58] integrated as much as possible, not only

[1:06:00] the zoning, but like level setting what

[1:06:03] building code actually allows, right?

[1:06:04] Because remember we talked about the

[1:06:06] difference between [clears throat]

[1:06:07] residential code and international

[1:06:09] building code, which dictates a lot of

[1:06:11] the commercial structures, commercial,

[1:06:13] multif family. That's where things get

[1:06:15] exorbitantly expensive. So all of the

[1:06:18] things that the consultants have been

[1:06:19] exploring and that they're going to

[1:06:20] present to you in these workshops all

[1:06:23] fun fall under IRC for that exact reason

[1:06:26] because costs get so much higher when

[1:06:30] you start to move into those different

[1:06:32] codes irrespective of of zoning right

[1:06:34] and and land use policy. So, we weren't

[1:06:37] going to even pursue anything in zoning

[1:06:40] recommendations that would have required

[1:06:42] falling into that IBC cuz we thought as

[1:06:45] staff and the consultants as experts

[1:06:47] thought that's just not going to be

[1:06:49] financially feasible. No one's going to

[1:06:50] build it. So, I think you'll find on

[1:06:52] Thursday that everything that Horsely

[1:06:54] Whitten and Consultant Group are

[1:06:56] recommending, they're recommending

[1:06:58] because they think it could actually be

[1:07:00] built and it's not just something we're

[1:07:02] going to put in zoning and it's going to

[1:07:04] sit for 15 years till we, you know,

[1:07:06] realize this isn't doing anything and we

[1:07:08] need to go back to the drawing board.

[1:07:10] >> Are they going to have a cost?

[1:07:12] >> This is the attainabil the attainability

[1:07:14] calculator like what I talked about, but

[1:07:16] also there is there's no way to predict.

[1:07:19] There was no way to predict two years

[1:07:20] ago what building costs are going to be

[1:07:22] today.

[1:07:22] >> I don't disagree with that, but I think

[1:07:24] it's good to use where they are and go

[1:07:27] from there.

[1:07:28] >> And that's what we've always

[1:07:29] >> So, they could actually say, okay, if

[1:07:31] you have a whatever a condominium or or

[1:07:34] missing build type thing, ADU, it's

[1:07:37] going to cost whatever.

[1:07:38] >> And I gave all building valuation costs

[1:07:41] for all middle housing and apartments at

[1:07:43] the start of this project. I went into

[1:07:45] the building files and pulled all those

[1:07:48] costs and gave them to con to the

[1:07:50] consultants specifically for that reason

[1:07:52] so that they knew even what local costs

[1:07:55] have been for construction here and what

[1:07:57] projects were actually attainable or at

[1:08:00] least more feasible before we went any

[1:08:02] further.

[1:08:02] >> Right. I think just reasonably costs

[1:08:05] have just gone crazy.

[1:08:06] >> I promise.

[1:08:08] >> Plus like you're saying the long-term

[1:08:10] borrowing cost. I think the thing is too

[1:08:13] some of those things like lumber costs

[1:08:15] are very cyclical. They'll go up because

[1:08:18] there's something going on nationally.

[1:08:21] It's sold on the international market

[1:08:23] >> and it could go back down. I mean it

[1:08:25] does.

[1:08:26] >> I think frankly some of this just comes

[1:08:27] back to kind of paralysis by analysis.

[1:08:29] Like we kind of have both from the grant

[1:08:32] and what our expectations are. We have

[1:08:34] to continue with these workshops. And so

[1:08:36] we're going to be moving into these

[1:08:38] workshops. And I mean, I think we feel

[1:08:40] and the consultants feel that we've done

[1:08:42] a lot of our due diligence and homework

[1:08:44] and justification for whatever

[1:08:46] recommendations are presented to you

[1:08:48] guys that they are reasonable in terms

[1:08:52] of the costs that will be incurred to a

[1:08:54] builder and also the attainable aspect

[1:08:57] to a renter or a home buyer, but also

[1:09:00] that it's it's going to get built. I

[1:09:01] don't think any of us here want to do a

[1:09:04] new cottage community regulation and

[1:09:05] then have every developer come to us and

[1:09:07] say this isn't going to work. Like it's not a great reflection on the town.

[1:09:11] >> Um and I don't think any of us really

[1:09:13] want that,

[1:09:14] >> right?

[1:09:14] >> So

[1:09:15] >> well recently [clears throat] actually

[1:09:17] there was something

[1:09:18] >> Yes. Yes.

[1:09:19] >> Oh

[1:09:19] >> just just like split whatever.

[1:09:21] >> I'll go after you do then I make I want

[1:09:24] to make a comment on

[1:09:26] I just actually this probably closing

[1:09:28] it'll be won't be too long. Um this

[1:09:31] gentleman who's um president of electric

[1:09:34] boat what his name is Mark Ryha

[1:09:37] >> Raha

[1:09:39] thank you he had an interesting thing to

[1:09:42] say I thought it was in a day I believe

[1:09:44] he said um in order to accommodate

[1:09:47] electric boats growing workforce and he

[1:09:50] said the company plans to hire our 8,000

[1:09:52] new employees this year

[1:09:55] [clears throat] and um that's on track

[1:09:57] to meet those goals but he said the

[1:09:59] state needs housing, particularly more

[1:10:01] apartments. Isn't that amazing? Uh he

[1:10:04] said, "We're hiring a lot of young

[1:10:05] people. We need housing that's nearby."

[1:10:09] He praised nearby New London, which has

[1:10:11] supported building new apartment

[1:10:12] complexes.

[1:10:14] [clears throat] And he said, "I think

[1:10:16] one of the benefits of some of the new

[1:10:18] construction apartments here in New

[1:10:20] London was the social element." Now,

[1:10:22] see, I never would have thought of it

[1:10:23] that way having lived in too many

[1:10:26] apartments. He says, "So you want to be

[1:10:28] able to get that part of it so that

[1:10:30] people develop a connection to the

[1:10:31] community and then as they branch out

[1:10:33] and then they get married have

[1:10:34] children." And I remember a lot of us,

[1:10:36] including myself, saying you have to

[1:10:38] really have home ownership in order to

[1:10:40] get, you know, stability in a community,

[1:10:42] you know, social stuff, you know, blah blah. So I thought it was really

[1:10:46] interesting. Um, and he talks about all

[1:10:49] places where electric boats going, but

[1:10:52] I'll give this to staff so that they

[1:10:54] could send everybody. I thought it was

[1:10:55] just a perspective that was so different

[1:10:58] than what I've been thinking um myself a

[1:11:00] lot and I thought it bears at least you

[1:11:02] know putting in the mix here. So because

[1:11:05] what we're doing here as a town of

[1:11:07] Graten so far is basically apartments

[1:11:09] and we certainly have a big backlog um a

[1:11:12] good number of them on the way. So and

[1:11:14] people do make money um do people you

[1:11:18] know who makes money on going down the

[1:11:20] levels at current construction costs?

[1:11:24] Um, so, so anyway, that's all as long as

[1:11:27] we're getting the costs in there because

[1:11:28] it's all been lots of theory for months, after months, different kinds of

[1:11:33] housing. That's all well and good, but

[1:11:35] um, it's so important to say, okay, but

[1:11:39] what does it really cost? You know,

[1:11:41] understanding and what you should also

[1:11:43] know a little bit think about what's the

[1:11:45] flexibility. Is it likely that maybe

[1:11:47] we're going to see what 10% or 20%

[1:11:50] decline if necessary the other thing

[1:11:52] have at least have some idea but I think

[1:11:55] on the other hand it's extremely

[1:11:56] difficult environment to be working

[1:11:58] right now for sure.

[1:12:00] >> Yeah. I and maybe this was something we

[1:12:02] just didn't communicate, but cost of

[1:12:05] building and cost to the eventual renter

[1:12:08] and home buyer was the backbone of this

[1:12:10] project

[1:12:11] >> and it's what's guided everything about

[1:12:14] this project for the entirety of this

[1:12:16] project. We've been meeting with

[1:12:17] Electric Boat monthly now. Um, and they

[1:12:21] have a person now who is completely

[1:12:24] devoted to housing and making sure

[1:12:26] there's enough housing for their

[1:12:28] incoming workers and he's completely

[1:12:31] behind any and all towns. He was up in

[1:12:34] Norwich, but he's, you know, happy to to

[1:12:37] talk to you guys as much as as you'd

[1:12:39] like about how electric boat really sees

[1:12:43] housing as the pinch point at this

[1:12:44] point. But

[1:12:47] >> if I can keep going, do you have a

[1:12:49] question for this?

[1:12:50] >> Uh, I'd like to split like one more hair

[1:12:52] if you have any remaining on your head.

[1:12:54] >> But after that,

[1:12:55] >> I for these costs, I'm just very

[1:12:58] interested to understand, are these for

[1:13:00] new builds or is that including infill

[1:13:02] because I think that what we see a lot

[1:13:04] of is that people are going to be um

[1:13:07] expanding on what exists. And I think

[1:13:09] that that's actually more of what we

[1:13:11] want as a community anyways as opposed

[1:13:13] to just leveling a site and throwing up

[1:13:15] 300 apartments

[1:13:16] >> for sure. Um cost for retrofitting or

[1:13:20] build

[1:13:20] >> conversions are very very hard to spec

[1:13:22] out in terms of cost. We did ask the

[1:13:24] consultants that and it's so

[1:13:27] situationally dependent and the fire

[1:13:30] marshall even if it's IVC IRC they walk

[1:13:33] into something's to code you got to go

[1:13:36] right back to start. You know what I

[1:13:38] Like so the conversion stuff is very

[1:13:40] tricky to kind of figure out what the

[1:13:41] cost of that could be. Some places some

[1:13:43] homes are easier to convert than others,

[1:13:45] right? They just their floor plans lend

[1:13:46] to it.

[1:13:47] >> The additions and stuff like that. I

[1:13:50] think the best proxy we have for that is

[1:13:52] probably accessory dwelling unit um type

[1:13:55] data and that's another thing that we

[1:13:57] gave to the consultants. Um

[1:14:00] >> but to your point like infill is going

[1:14:03] to be the cheapest, right? because

[1:14:05] inherently you're just adding another

[1:14:07] unit and you're not necessarily worrying

[1:14:09] about um acquiring land, demoing

[1:14:12] something, doing all that site work. So

[1:14:14] to your point, infill kind of guides a

[1:14:16] lot of the recommendations that I think

[1:14:17] you'll see Thursday

[1:14:19] >> and it overlaps because you're talking

[1:14:21] about those cap [clears throat] captain

[1:14:23] houses. Yeah, I I don't think I ever

[1:14:25] envisioned like a new captain's house

[1:14:27] per se. Like that was always kind of

[1:14:28] like a conversion type thing that you

[1:14:30] know you see in Mystic or you see you

[1:14:32] know elsewhere that

[1:14:33] >> Oh, okay. Thank you.

[1:14:34] >> No, but I say one more thing. But then

[1:14:36] you're talking you're really talking.

[1:14:39] You're not talking the region.

[1:14:41] >> Yes, I am talking about the region.

[1:14:42] >> Okay. Because land costs and everything

[1:14:44] of course.

[1:14:44] >> Yep.

[1:14:45] >> Or a lot less.

[1:14:46] >> Yep. Okay. So, so

[1:14:48] >> I'm sorry and this is my last thing. I'm

[1:14:52] sorry. Um, going back to the POCD, we

[1:14:55] are going to focus on where the circles

[1:14:56] are, right? And Deb's low hanging fruit

[1:15:00] that you mentioned. Okay.

[1:15:02] >> So, this slide right here, why missing

[1:15:03] middle town goals? I kind of skipped

[1:15:05] through the affordable housing plan. I

[1:15:06] skipped through um I don't know,

[1:15:09] something else that was in there. What

[1:15:11] was it? Um, yeah, I guess that's

[1:15:13] affordable housing plan. Old plan of

[1:15:15] conservation development. Um, also just

[1:15:18] as a side note, no more affordable

[1:15:19] housing plans. just reminder because of

[1:15:22] PA25-1. So I think this is still in

[1:15:25] effect now until the regional plan comes

[1:15:27] out, but this will soon have no bearing

[1:15:30] at all on GR. But I wanted to put in at

[1:15:32] least they were exploring middle housing

[1:15:34] during that affordable housing plan,

[1:15:35] right? Um but onto the newly adopted

[1:15:38] POC. Um as you can see, yeah, that was a

[1:15:42] lot of the focus right towards the end

[1:15:43] there was figuring out the areas of

[1:15:44] opportunity. Um, and so I think you'll

[1:15:47] find that when we do the buildout

[1:15:48] scenarios, it's going to align roughly

[1:15:50] with those areas of opportunity that

[1:15:51] just make sense to look at those

[1:15:52] geographies. Um, as well as some of the

[1:15:55] policies and strategies um, also really

[1:15:58] touch on the importance of middle

[1:16:00] housing, but also the importance of that

[1:16:02] infill, the flexibility of housing,

[1:16:04] right? Um, all right. Town preferences.

[1:16:07] So, I I've probably said this a million

[1:16:08] times, but up to this project and and

[1:16:11] really why this project was kicked off

[1:16:13] is because we did hear a lot about uh

[1:16:15] the scale of multif family developments.

[1:16:17] And this isn't the only housing that we

[1:16:19] should have, right? Um we don't

[1:16:21] necessarily have to decide between a

[1:16:22] detached single family home and a large

[1:16:25] um dense apartment building. So, you

[1:16:27] know, that is 100% one of the driving

[1:16:30] forces behind this idea of middle

[1:16:31] housing. Also, once we did that regional

[1:16:33] housing study, Koine found not only the

[1:16:36] number of units in the thousands, which

[1:16:38] Sue to your point,

[1:16:40] >> this estimate is going to inherently go

[1:16:41] up because of the the increased hiring

[1:16:44] projections that they have now, but also

[1:16:46] what KO did in this one is actually

[1:16:48] project the um desire for different

[1:16:50] housing types and found that 65% of that

[1:16:53] demand um both the low end and the high

[1:16:56] end are in that middle density um

[1:16:59] spectrum. in that we defined it as two

[1:17:01] to 19 units. I think we'll probably end

[1:17:03] up I mean we're going to figure out

[1:17:05] exactly how we define middle housing as

[1:17:08] the recommendations and as forly Whitten

[1:17:10] works with you um because you'll see

[1:17:13] probably once you start hitting the once

[1:17:15] the rubber hits the road on PA25-1 the

[1:17:18] state defines middle housing in a very

[1:17:21] strange way and it's not necessarily the

[1:17:23] way that we would define it. So just for

[1:17:25] the sake of this it's 2 to 19 units.

[1:17:27] [clears throat] Um that's a little bit

[1:17:29] more on that. Um a note on

[1:17:31] affordability. Um you know, none of this

[1:17:36] in zoning is going to require a deed

[1:17:39] restriction um to be affordable like you

[1:17:42] would see on an 830g project, right? The

[1:17:45] town currently doesn't have inclusionary

[1:17:46] zoning, which is that mechanism. You

[1:17:48] know, you build uh 50 units, 10% by

[1:17:52] zoning needs to be affordable. We don't

[1:17:53] have that mechanism in our zoning. Um

[1:17:56] and so the best that we can do outside

[1:17:58] of a nonprofit developer coming in and

[1:18:00] developing 100% affordable um and again

[1:18:03] because we're not subject to 830G which

[1:18:05] can override local zoning is uh trying

[1:18:07] to get at the attainable. So the

[1:18:09] attainable housing meaning you know like

[1:18:11] 100 120% AMI, right? Like starter home

[1:18:15] workforce housing type if you can kind

[1:18:17] of think about it that way. Um that's

[1:18:19] really what a lot of the the goals of

[1:18:22] the recommendations have been shooting

[1:18:25] for is that 120% um of AMI. Um and then

[1:18:31] I will just quickly hit on this slide um

[1:18:34] the impacts the different impacts that

[1:18:36] can impact uh attainability or

[1:18:37] affordability right so high land costs

[1:18:40] like Sue said high building costs can

[1:18:42] have a real impact on affordability um

[1:18:44] or attainability permitting costs um on

[1:18:47] some respects in some places can for

[1:18:49] sure um the size of the home and then

[1:18:52] site requirements such as parking

[1:18:53] amenities and storm water right um so

[1:18:56] this is that attainability calculator

[1:18:58] that I was talking about. It's really, cool. They actually built this.

[1:19:02] Kronberg Urbanist and Architects built

[1:19:04] this for us and then created a

[1:19:05] nationwide one for just anybody after.

[1:19:08] So, if you're ever interested, um I

[1:19:10] think I linked to it on the website, um

[1:19:12] our website to learn more. Um but you

[1:19:15] can just put any zip code you want in

[1:19:16] and it'll kind of spit out the same

[1:19:18] information. But what this attainability

[1:19:20] calculator does, and I'll go over in a

[1:19:22] little bit more detail later in the

[1:19:23] presentation, is it really breaks down

[1:19:26] all those costs. So we look at square

[1:19:28] foot, we look at vertical costs, right?

[1:19:32] Um all the way through land costs um you

[1:19:36] know if the land is owned outright or if

[1:19:39] a community land trust owns the land and

[1:19:41] then varying housing types. So small

[1:19:43] little format cottages versus duplex

[1:19:46] versus triplex and how all of that can

[1:19:48] combine to either create unaffordable

[1:19:51] housing or you know very high-end market

[1:19:53] rate housing or more attainable housing.

[1:19:57] So, I'm going to skip this question.

[1:19:58] Forgive me because I'm going to try to

[1:20:00] get through this next part. Um, we've

[1:20:02] gone through a lot of this already, so

[1:20:04] I'm just going to touch on it. Barriers

[1:20:06] to middle housing historically have been

[1:20:08] zoning, have been building, fire codes,

[1:20:10] and other codes that dictate housing

[1:20:12] development, federal policies, and local

[1:20:15] opposition. Um, I will just stop here

[1:20:18] really quick to say when you look at our

[1:20:21] stock in this town of middle housing,

[1:20:24] um, what you would consider middle

[1:20:25] housing today, I think the average age

[1:20:29] of that housing is just about 90 to 100

[1:20:32] years old. So, a lot of it was built

[1:20:35] during that preWorld War II um kind of

[1:20:38] on the tail end of the industrialization

[1:20:41] and kind of factory kind of um economic

[1:20:45] drivers of New England. Um and so that

[1:20:48] can see you can from that deduce that

[1:20:50] real drop off um from that

[1:20:53] suburbanization period, this the kind of

[1:20:56] building of the suburbs of World War II,

[1:20:58] right? Post World War II GI Bill. I I'd

[1:21:00] love to see the background or the

[1:21:02] details of that number.

[1:21:03] >> Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat]

[1:21:05] Um so zoning which is kind of the

[1:21:07] purview of this and this is just going

[1:21:10] to go through um kind of how it went

[1:21:13] missing. So it within zoning really it's

[1:21:16] your use regulations, your dimensional

[1:21:18] regulations, your use conditions. So,

[1:21:20] we've talked a lot about kind of or at

[1:21:22] least in that last public meeting, we

[1:21:24] talked a lot about how in our conditions

[1:21:26] for for multi-unit housing, we consider

[1:21:29] everything from three units all the way

[1:21:30] up to 200 units the same in terms of the

[1:21:33] conditions we require them. So, that's a an example of how use

[1:21:36] conditions might impact um

[1:21:38] attainability. And then parking um just

[1:21:41] couple high-end or top level things. Um

[1:21:44] so, you know, just an example, the use

[1:21:47] regulations, dimensional regulations.

[1:21:48] You guys have all seen this before.

[1:21:50] you're singing like it's a bad thing.

[1:21:52] >> I no I am a neutral arbiter at this

[1:21:55] point in time.

[1:21:56] >> Um and [clears throat] then I'm gonna

[1:21:58] for the the sake of of this presentation

[1:22:01] in time, I'm going to kind of skip

[1:22:02] through this, but this and and I will um

[1:22:07] post this exact presentation online and

[1:22:09] send it out to you guys to review more

[1:22:11] in detail for some of these slides that

[1:22:12] we've kind of had to jump through. Um,

[1:22:14] but this slide's really good at just

[1:22:17] looking exactly at specific specifically

[1:22:20] residential code and um, you know,

[1:22:22] international building code and just

[1:22:24] kind of delineating all the different

[1:22:26] requirements and how that might ladder

[1:22:27] up to more expensive housing or or more

[1:22:29] attainable housing. On the the flip

[1:22:31] side, um, federal policies decisions

[1:22:34] definitely have had an impact, but for

[1:22:35] the sake of this presentation, we're

[1:22:37] going to jump right through local

[1:22:38] opposition. Obviously amongst, you know,

[1:22:41] any form of housing, local opposition

[1:22:42] plays um a big factor in if things get

[1:22:45] built or don't get built, right?

[1:22:47] >> Sorry.

[1:22:48] >> Yep.

[1:22:49] >> Am I supposed to know what cave banana

[1:22:50] note means?

[1:22:51] >> No, only John Ryder knows those. No, he

[1:22:53] comes up, he finds the new acronyms and

[1:22:54] feeds them down to us and we got to

[1:22:56] learn them real quick. So cave is

[1:22:59] >> citizens against virtually everything.

[1:23:01] Banana build absolutely nothing anywhere

[1:23:04] near anything. Note is not over there

[1:23:07] either.

[1:23:08] >> [laughter]

[1:23:08] >> Yeah. So I, you know, there's an acronym

[1:23:11] for everything and then there's new

[1:23:12] acronyms for the same thing.

[1:23:14] >> Heard of Nimby?

[1:23:15] >> You've heard of NIMBI, but have you

[1:23:16] heard of banana?

[1:23:17] >> Banana. I'm gonna I kind of have to

[1:23:20] [laughter]

[1:23:21] >> um So you guys know the

[1:23:23] >> You guys know the consultants. You

[1:23:25] basically, you know, at this point, this

[1:23:28] is it's kind of laggy. You know what

[1:23:30] this this project's hoping to

[1:23:32] accomplish. So we've already done a lot

[1:23:33] of the spreading of the awareness of

[1:23:35] what missing middle housing is. that you

[1:23:37] know I mean the [clears throat]

[1:23:38] community at large probably didn't

[1:23:40] really know what this topic meant but

[1:23:41] once you kind of show it you're like oh

[1:23:43] yeah duplex triplex like the stuff we

[1:23:44] got over no ink mystic quantic bridge

[1:23:47] you know um so showing what the

[1:23:50] community showing the community what

[1:23:51] these housing types look like listening

[1:23:53] to the community about what missing

[1:23:55] metal housing types are the most

[1:23:57] desirable to pursue um ensuring

[1:23:59] alignment with the town zoning with

[1:24:01] various other codes that may inhibit

[1:24:04] development so that's really you know

[1:24:06] again to the point of the consultants

[1:24:08] aren't going to recommend anything that

[1:24:10] building code doesn't allow you to do,

[1:24:12] right? Because that's a waste of all of

[1:24:14] our time. And then at what stage we're

[1:24:17] at now is potentially amending the town

[1:24:18] zoning regulations to allow more housing

[1:24:20] options.

[1:24:22] So the website, I don't know how many

[1:24:24] people have really interacted with this

[1:24:26] website. I post literally everything

[1:24:28] onto it. Um so it's a real treasure

[1:24:30] trove even if you want to um catch back

[1:24:33] up. Um, so that was a big deliverable

[1:24:36] that was a big part of of how we can get

[1:24:39] the word out on these deliverables. And

[1:24:40] then I'm just going to nail through all

[1:24:42] the deliverables. We've done 2025

[1:24:44] regional housing demand and supply

[1:24:46] study. We've we've gone at this one at

[1:24:48] nauseium at this point. Um, I think

[1:24:50] everyone's got a hard copy. Fenty, I've

[1:24:52] got your hard copy. So, as soon as

[1:24:54] you're in person next time, just ask me

[1:24:56] and I'll give it to you. Um, but there's

[1:24:57] some really great stuff in that. And

[1:25:00] that also really integrated a lot of

[1:25:02] feedback we've heard from the last

[1:25:03] couple housing studies that we've done.

[1:25:05] Um the missing middle housing inventory

[1:25:09] um which I thought was a really great

[1:25:10] first step um to to getting an idea of

[1:25:13] what we already had. The opportunity

[1:25:15] sites. So here's the the famous Kevin

[1:25:18] Fiftol opportunity site of a captain's

[1:25:20] house with two ADUs. Um I think it looks

[1:25:24] rather nice. Are you interested?

[1:25:25] >> I want to make a million dollars.

[1:25:26] >> You want to make a million dollars?

[1:25:28] Well, you got your book coming up, so

[1:25:29] maybe you'll have some extra cash.

[1:25:30] >> Well, that's the movie. But

[1:25:32] >> yeah. Um, so again, the opportunity

[1:25:35] sites were really meant to take those housing types and show what they

[1:25:38] would look like on a kind of like a, you

[1:25:40] know, a fancy little site plan, right?

[1:25:41] How that site could actually look. Um,

[1:25:43] again, completely hypothetical. Um, just

[1:25:46] taking different sites throughout town

[1:25:47] based on their qualities of

[1:25:49] redevelopment, new development, um, town

[1:25:51] owned properties, things like that.

[1:25:53] Walking tours. Um, I thought they all

[1:25:56] went pretty well. I think each got

[1:25:58] better as we went on and kind of learned

[1:26:00] more. Um, our last one was in July in

[1:26:02] the city of Graten. If you haven't if

[1:26:04] you weren't able to attend that one, I

[1:26:06] do have the virtual tour up on the

[1:26:08] website now. Um, that one was during the fires. It was a little spooky. Um,

[1:26:15] >> yeah. Um, and then of course we had the

[1:26:18] opportunity sites public meeting um,

[1:26:20] back in March and then our last public

[1:26:22] meeting which I'm going to plug now if

[1:26:25] you guys haven't looked at the virtual

[1:26:27] open house or if you weren't able to to check out what was in that, please, please go to the website if you

[1:26:33] have time between today and Thursday to

[1:26:35] check out what those approaches and

[1:26:37] tools were. Um, because that really

[1:26:39] formed kind of the basis of what these

[1:26:42] workshops are going to look like. All

[1:26:43] right. And I'll go into a little bit

[1:26:45] more detail with that, but that's just

[1:26:46] my plug. I'll probably say it one or two

[1:26:47] more times. Please, please, please go to

[1:26:49] the virtual open house.

[1:26:51] >> That's in the which site?

[1:26:53] >> That's on the missing middle housing

[1:26:54] like hub site. Um, so not greater

[1:26:56] graten, but you can get to it from

[1:26:58] greater graten, right?

[1:26:59] >> It's not always easy to find.

[1:27:01] >> Yeah, that's the easiest way to get it.

[1:27:02] >> It's probably the easiest way to get it.

[1:27:04] It's also in my email signature. If

[1:27:06] you've ever gotten an email from me,

[1:27:08] this website's in the email signature.

[1:27:10] >> Send us a blank email. So,

[1:27:11] >> I will send you all a blank email.

[1:27:12] >> Yeah. BCC so we don't start a meeting.

[1:27:15] >> Great.

[1:27:15] >> Okay.

[1:27:16] >> Um, draft executive report. So, this was

[1:27:19] basically Horsey Whitten as part of the the grant had to kind of do a

[1:27:23] executive report kind of doing what I'm

[1:27:25] doing tonight, right? Recapping

[1:27:26] everything and then where we go next

[1:27:28] before their final report which is due

[1:27:30] in December. Um, housing attainability

[1:27:33] explorer. So, that's on the website.

[1:27:35] Okay. So, check that out. Um, I forget

[1:27:37] what tab it's on but it'll be attainable

[1:27:39] attainability explorer. You'll drop it

[1:27:41] down. It's interactive. You can click on

[1:27:43] whatever you want. You can play with it.

[1:27:45] I pulled in the actual home design. So,

[1:27:47] you can look at what these houses and

[1:27:48] the formats actually look like while you

[1:27:50] play with it. But it's a really

[1:27:51] interesting, you know, Sue to your

[1:27:53] point, kind of playing with costs and

[1:27:55] seeing how, you know, what mixture of

[1:27:57] what could actually get us um attainable

[1:27:59] housing potentially at a scale that

[1:28:01] actually helps, right? Questions. I'm

[1:28:04] going to skip that one if I can and then

[1:28:05] go right into the organization of these

[1:28:07] workshops. So, um I think we've kind of

[1:28:10] mentioned it, but the workshops are

[1:28:12] going to be organized into uh three

[1:28:14] tiers or buckets. Um the first one is

[1:28:17] going to kind of be lowhangingish fruit

[1:28:19] stuff that's not super super complicated

[1:28:22] stuff that you know a tweak here and

[1:28:23] there can have meaningful impact. Um

[1:28:25] we're definitely going to go through

[1:28:26] cottage communities because that's

[1:28:28] something that we heard constantly from

[1:28:29] the community. Want this? Why aren't we

[1:28:31] getting them? Um, and then it's going to

[1:28:34] probably brooch into, you know, what

[1:28:36] slight changes could we make to

[1:28:38] multi-unit housing conditions to make

[1:28:40] specifically middle housing a little bit

[1:28:42] easier to create. Um but that that tier

[1:28:45] one which is Thursday is going to be you

[1:28:47] know definitely less challenging than

[1:28:49] the the workshop you know in in November

[1:28:52] which is that that third bucket which

[1:28:54] it's going to probably be more

[1:28:56] complicated in terms of sections of the

[1:28:58] zoning that would have to get changed to

[1:29:00] make everything consistent and a little

[1:29:03] bit different ways of looking at things.

[1:29:05] Um, but nothing in these workshops

[1:29:08] really are a surprise from kind of the

[1:29:11] tools and approaches public meeting and

[1:29:14] things we've been talking about. There's

[1:29:15] really no curve balls in anything. Um,

[1:29:18] >> Thursday's meeting this year.

[1:29:19] >> Thursday's meeting is here 5:00.

[1:29:23] >> There will be

[1:29:24] >> Yeah, that's my understanding.

[1:29:26] >> There will be food. Um,

[1:29:28] >> 5 to 7 here, right?

[1:29:30] >> 5 to 7. That will be uh that meeting

[1:29:32] will be driven by Jeff at Corps and

[1:29:34] Whiten. So, he's going to be leading

[1:29:36] that meeting. We're all going to be here

[1:29:38] though to to help.

[1:29:39] >> And is that a cut off? Do we stop at 7

[1:29:41] o'clock?

[1:29:42] >> That's the game plan. Yeah. Okay.

[1:29:44] >> Yeah. Yeah. And we want one form or

[1:29:47] another.

[1:29:47] >> Yes. Yes. And I I if I had to guess, you

[1:29:50] know, you know, Jeff, he's probably

[1:29:51] going to give you homework

[1:29:53] >> like the PCD, right? Special meetings.

[1:29:55] There's there might be some outstanding

[1:29:57] things

[1:29:58] >> for next time.

[1:29:59] >> Yes. Yes. Exactly. Um,

[1:30:00] >> that was our homework, right? The PMC.

[1:30:02] >> I know. I know. And and again, the

[1:30:04] workshops we need to do for the grant.

[1:30:08] That doesn't mean that if you guys have

[1:30:10] lingering questions past December,

[1:30:14] that's not a problem, right? We can we

[1:30:16] can continue to workshop this and work

[1:30:18] on this, but we just have to for this

[1:30:19] grant cycle get through all these

[1:30:22] recommendations, right?

[1:30:24] >> So, only planning and zoning members are

[1:30:26] participating in these workshops.

[1:30:27] >> That's the idea. So,

[1:30:30] working very much like the seven brew

[1:30:32] workshop that we had just before. Um

[1:30:34] except instead of the applicant or the

[1:30:36] attorney, it's going to be Jeff and then

[1:30:37] we're just going to be chatting, right?

[1:30:39] Um but you know, it's it's going to all

[1:30:43] be posted. People can comment, send

[1:30:45] emails to us, and we can filter it

[1:30:47] through as well. Um,

[1:30:49] >> yeah. I guess I I I just think that some

[1:30:51] recommendations that could or should

[1:30:53] come out wouldn't be within our

[1:30:55] authority, but having those who would

[1:30:59] then promulgate them should probably

[1:31:00] have some kind of bit of a conversation

[1:31:02] before a formal recommendation's made.

[1:31:04] >> We're going to be focusing on things

[1:31:05] that that are your

[1:31:08] thinking.

[1:31:09] >> Yeah.

[1:31:09] >> Right. But then we'll have a public

[1:31:10] hearing anyway, right? Eventually,

[1:31:13] >> will we eventually have a public hearing

[1:31:15] to go Yeah. forward.

[1:31:16] >> Basically, whatever you guys are

[1:31:18] interested in pursuing,

[1:31:20] >> we could then put together a formal

[1:31:23] application probably in 2027, right? But

[1:31:25] nothing nothing that would, you know,

[1:31:28] trigger a public hearing or anything

[1:31:29] like that. Like no no application's

[1:31:31] going to be brought to you guys this

[1:31:33] year as part of this grant. My my point

[1:31:35] being specifically with the council,

[1:31:37] right, if there was a policy decision

[1:31:38] that we thought the council should

[1:31:40] really pursue or appropriations for

[1:31:43] certain types of subsidy, right? Those

[1:31:45] are the things that I would think the

[1:31:46] >> tax incentives.

[1:31:47] >> Yeah. So, the council should have be

[1:31:49] part of that conversation. So, there are

[1:31:51] recommendations that Jeff will touch on

[1:31:54] that are not in your purview, but are a

[1:31:58] smart thing to start thinking about as a

[1:32:01] town. And some of them are would be

[1:32:04] within the council's purview, but

[1:32:06] they're going to be presented to you.

[1:32:07] You're just not necessarily going to

[1:32:09] have the power to do anything with them,

[1:32:10] right?

[1:32:10] >> Can we formally invite council members

[1:32:13] to these meetings understanding that

[1:32:15] they're [laughter]

[1:32:16] >> understanding that there might be some

[1:32:18] overlap with their own meetings?

[1:32:19] >> Yeah. Um, but I think that that's

[1:32:21] important for them to, you know,

[1:32:22] >> I think we should invite the whole

[1:32:24] council.

[1:32:24] >> Absolutely. The entire council of

[1:32:25] course,

[1:32:26] >> right? I mean, why not?

[1:32:27] >> I want the entire council here

[1:32:28] >> and not talk and listen.

[1:32:30] >> 48 hours.

[1:32:30] >> But, and I don't mean this

[1:32:32] disrespectfully, but like

[1:32:34] >> the zoning stuff, that's your baiff,

[1:32:37] right? It's important for everyone to

[1:32:38] listen, but like in terms of getting

[1:32:40] through the meetings. Yeah. Like it

[1:32:43] that's why we can't have just like you

[1:32:45] know public hearing public hearing as private workshops.

[1:32:49] Right.

[1:32:49] >> The thing with like the formal

[1:32:51] invitation is that sure anyone could

[1:32:53] show up but does anyone really think to

[1:32:55] do it unless you're like hey I'd like

[1:32:57] you to be there.

[1:32:57] >> Yep.

[1:32:58] >> Right.

[1:32:58] >> Yep. And we'll make sure that Jeff

[1:33:00] really kind of parses out the stuff that you know is good for you guys to

[1:33:04] see but but the responsibility would be

[1:33:06] elsewhere.

[1:33:07] >> Right. Um

[1:33:10] okay. Yeah. non-binding informal

[1:33:13] conversations. Um, so I've kind of done

[1:33:16] a fall schedule because this is getting

[1:33:18] kind of tight, right? So tonight

[1:33:21] obviously regular PCC meeting recap

[1:33:23] presentation. Thursday workshop on tier

[1:33:26] one recommendations, regular meeting on

[1:33:28] October 13th. Next that next Thursday um

[1:33:33] October 22nd is that second tier of

[1:33:36] recommendations and then a couple

[1:33:38] regular PCC meetings. The last workshop

[1:33:41] is going to be um uh November 19th and

[1:33:46] then we're hoping we drop dead date is

[1:33:49] December 31st for the final report and

[1:33:52] everything due to the grant funders.

[1:33:54] We're probably going to get stuff a

[1:33:56] little bit early because people are

[1:33:58] going out on holiday and whatnot. Um and

[1:34:00] then in early 2027

[1:34:03] that formal application if desired, we

[1:34:07] could begin working on something like

[1:34:08] that. Right. and that could have more uh

[1:34:10] more workshops and whatnot. I do want to

[1:34:13] say we're still working on a community

[1:34:14] conversation that's kind of around

[1:34:16] housing. The scheduling has just been a

[1:34:19] real mess. So that could happen in

[1:34:21] December.

[1:34:22] >> Could is there the ability to move that

[1:34:25] tier three up in the schedule just

[1:34:27] because if that's going to be more of

[1:34:28] the complicated I can imagine us wanting

[1:34:31] to take multiple passes at it.

[1:34:34] >> Yeah. So, if we moved it up,

[1:34:37] >> we the ranks.

[1:34:38] >> I I think we reserved a couple uh

[1:34:41] potential dates.

[1:34:43] >> Yeah, that's the biggest thing.

[1:34:44] >> I don't know. Sue, what do you think

[1:34:45] about that?

[1:34:46] >> Absolutely. [laughter]

[1:34:49] >> Thank you.

[1:34:49] >> So, yeah. Can we stick it on the tail

[1:34:52] end of a regular meeting?

[1:34:54] >> Depends what's on the agenda.

[1:34:55] >> Yeah.

[1:34:56] >> Or 10 at 11.

[1:35:01] >> Yep. Say that's my son's birthday and my

[1:35:03] birthday. So, if we can stick it in the

[1:35:04] week in between so I can actually

[1:35:07] [laughter]

[1:35:08] >> Yeah. Um,

[1:35:08] >> we haven't received that invitation.

[1:35:10] Lauren,

[1:35:11] >> bring it. Jake,

[1:35:12] >> I'll bring I'll bring the cake.

[1:35:15] >> Hey, virtual open house.

[1:35:17] >> One more plug. Please, please look at

[1:35:19] it.

[1:35:20] >> Um, if you weren't in the public

[1:35:22] meeting, if you were at the public

[1:35:23] meeting, uh, it's a good refresher,

[1:35:25] right? So, you're not coming in blind

[1:35:27] for Thursday. two I mean the the memo

[1:35:30] did have kind of broad strokes but um we

[1:35:32] want you guys to to really kind of know

[1:35:34] what what's going to be discussed um and

[1:35:37] then that's it so

[1:35:39] >> I appreciate it if there's any questions

[1:35:42] knowing that the workshops are really

[1:35:44] going to dive into all of it

[1:35:45] >> that's good thanks

[1:35:46] >> so the basis for you um providing this

[1:35:49] tonight was really to set the template

[1:35:51] that this is the infrastructure and here

[1:35:54] are the decisions that are mainly

[1:35:56] focused on zoning that you shouldn't

[1:35:59] have to look at which we presented in

[1:36:00] those three workshops. Yes.

[1:36:02] >> So, so tonight was just really setting

[1:36:04] the template infrastructure of what

[1:36:06] we've built and now we have the ability

[1:36:09] as a town to um to further that by

[1:36:12] making some um decisions that are much

[1:36:15] zoning oriented I guess. Yeah. This has

[1:36:17] been a year and a half of a project. So,

[1:36:20] it's easy between the PSD to forget some

[1:36:22] of this stuff. So, part of it was to

[1:36:24] recap everything we've done. Also part

[1:36:26] of it is we had to um not that we

[1:36:28] wouldn't have but this was this was

[1:36:30] absolutely something that we had to do

[1:36:32] as part of the the project.

[1:36:34] >> Yes. [clears throat] And also the

[1:36:34] affordability issues that we've

[1:36:36] discussed over the last year and a half

[1:36:38] and the PCD there seems to be a little

[1:36:40] mix of that and now for the first time

[1:36:42] it's clear to me what we have to do. So

[1:36:45] it's good.

[1:36:48] Great. Anybody else? Thanks. Good.

[1:36:51] >> Okay. Thanks a lot.

[1:36:52] >> Thank you guys for letting me do that.

[1:36:54] >> Appreciate it very much.

[1:36:58] But this is your uh paternity leave,

[1:37:00] right?

[1:37:01] >> No, this I'm back. I'm back.

[1:37:03] >> Is that right?

[1:37:04] >> Yeah.

[1:37:04] >> That's all the time they gave you. I

[1:37:05] thought they gave you months and months.

[1:37:08] >> No.

[1:37:10] >> Welcome back. [laughter]

[1:37:14] » I think I'm sure you're happy to be back

[1:37:16] in some ways. I know. [laughter]

[1:37:22] Anyway. Okay. So, that's it for that.

[1:37:24] Let's see.

[1:37:26] We have next um

[1:37:28] >> new applications I think. Any

[1:37:31] applications?

[1:37:32] >> Yeah, just the one right below it. And

[1:37:34] the [clears throat]

[1:37:36] >> catch. Yeah. And you may be familiar

[1:37:38] with this. You reviewed it probably two

[1:37:40] years ago. It just was never recorded.

[1:37:43] So

[1:37:43] >> Oh, okay. Right. Referrals. None.

[1:37:48] [clears throat]

[1:37:49] >> Let's see.

[1:37:50] Reported. Chair. Um,

[1:37:53] just quickly, Deb, Dave and I went over

[1:37:56] most of the POC maps and um, just so you

[1:38:00] know, the things had to be fixed, but

[1:38:03] the Mystic River properties primarily, I

[1:38:05] mean, the towns and oral school estates,

[1:38:09] [clears throat] they need to be

[1:38:10] corrected. Um, so they're working on

[1:38:13] that. And, um, let's see.

[1:38:18] And then we'll send around this article.

[1:38:21] um by the president elector vote. So,

[1:38:25] but that's all I have to say. So,

[1:38:28] next [clears throat] I guess reporting

[1:38:30] commission. Does anybody have anything

[1:38:32] else to report?

[1:38:35] >> Okay. And staff.

[1:38:37] >> Um as you noted, we are working on the

[1:38:40] format of the PCD and correcting some

[1:38:43] typos and some mistakes we found in

[1:38:45] there.

[1:38:45] >> Um the maps that Sue referred to are

[1:38:48] really just it's not changing any of the

[1:38:50] maps. is just making sure that you know

[1:38:52] the open space parcels are correctly

[1:38:54] identified, that sort of thing.

[1:38:56] >> Um, and I'm hoping that will be done

[1:38:58] fairly soon.

[1:39:00] >> Yep. Great.

[1:39:00] >> And then we'll have paper copies for you

[1:39:02] guys.

[1:39:03] >> Super.

[1:39:04] >> If you look.

[1:39:06] >> Okay. Great. Um, so anything else?

[1:39:09] Otherwise, I'll take a motion to

[1:39:12] >> move.

[1:39:13] >> Second.

[1:39:15] >> All right. Thanks everybody. appreciate

[1:39:18] your time and participation.

[1:39:21] >> Well, the spot means

Groton Planning and Zoning Commission - 9/22/26

Transcript