[2:01] the king. [laughter] >> Call our meeting to order with the

[2:05] pledge of allegiance. I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of

[2:09] America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God,

[2:15] indivisible, with liberty and justice for all for all.

[2:22] control the TVs. The first item was ICS. Are we going to kind of skip over that?

[2:28] » Yeah, ICS um had a little delay this morning. So, they're going to be here a

[2:31] little after 10. So, we'll do solid waste and human services.

[2:35] » Hi, Josh.

[2:38] [clears throat]

[2:41] » All right. Good morning.

[2:47] Um so yeah this morning going to go through I guess our proposed uh 2027

[2:52] budget. Um

[2:55] we are I guess overall the budget is coming in looking a little bit lower

[2:59] than it is in 2026. Um so that's a positive. Uh don't have

[3:05] quite as many projects um in the hopper this next year. Um we are looking at um

[3:11] having a solid waste assessment increase of about 3% and I'll kind of get into

[3:15] that when we a little bit more when we um go through our slide packet here. Um

[3:22] and then also uh tipping fees. We're looking at adjusting them some which

[3:26] I'll get into. Uh we're looking at uh uh proposing a slight increase to FTE for

[3:33] 2027 um to try to help cover um during staff shortages that we've experienced

[3:40] uh during extended leaves. Um I've attached our updated 10-year capital

[3:44] plan. Um and we're continuing to plan for

[3:48] long-term uh regional demolition landfill changes with that. And then uh

[3:54] at the end here I was going to discuss uh our 2026 department reorganization um

[4:00] that we've been working on. Uh Mary's put a lot of time into this um and

[4:06] putting a lot of time into just looking at our department and uh going through

[4:10] uh starting a reorganization process with that. So, um maybe since Mary's

[4:15] here, we can we'll jump into maybe do that first um part of it first and then

[4:19] I can come back and go through my um budget. But if you go to the last I

[4:25] think the last slide in my packet um it shows our uh

[4:35] proposed organizational chart. Um, and kind of what uh what kicked this off

[4:42] was we had uh um a new supervisor level position that we had budgeted for last

[4:47] year and once we started working on filling that position realized we should

[4:52] take a look at our entire department and make sure you know the different staff

[4:55] positions are aligned appropriately through that. Um, so working with Mary

[4:59] and working with DDA, we went through that process of um, update updating job

[5:04] descriptions, uh, making sure they u job titles kind of fit and have a clear

[5:11] outline of what the job and duties entail. And then also uh through that

[5:17] process looking at um expanding our uh um adding another level of operator

[5:23] position um just for some of the more advanced equipment that we operate at

[5:27] our facility. Um but pretty much what we did here was look at separating out you

[5:32] know a portion of our staff under the recycling or sustainability branches and

[5:36] a portion under the the solid waste operation type branches. um with this

[5:41] process and looking at the job descriptions um some of the descriptions

[5:46] um we'll be look would be looking at uh grade increases and to better align with

[5:51] the um um the market and also the county's internal structure as well. So

[5:59] um so I don't know if Mary if you have

[6:03] anything >> Josh could I just comment on on

[6:06] something? So actually this discussion happened when we were in union

[6:10] negotiations and they talked about how um the highway was broken down into um

[6:16] categories of what they operate and solid waste did not have that. So this

[6:22] came as a request to look at the positions.

[6:25] » Yep. Yeah. I don't know that there's anything else that I would necessarily

[6:29] add to it. Um just that you know a lot of time and effort went into looking at

[6:34] the differences in um the other counties. um internal structure, making

[6:38] sure that we were aligned. Um hopefully, you know, this will be something that'll

[6:42] um work for Josh for years to come. So, um

[6:47] yeah, I don't think there's anything necessarily that I I think we need to

[6:50] add to what you've already said. >> So, you're looking to add the two

[6:55] temporary positions. Is that right? Part time. Um so that'll be I'll discuss I

[7:00] guess that as portion as will go through my budget but that's you know that'll be

[7:03] a ask for next year but um >> and those are to fill in for uh family

[7:09] paid leave. So in other words it might be a wash then

[7:12] » yeah so I yeah we can I guess we can jump into that now too. So, we got uh

[7:17] like this year for instance, we had three full-time employees that were out

[7:20] on leave at the same time and it really impacts our impacted our operation where

[7:25] we're not able to um do a lot of the extras such as, you know, getting our

[7:29] grinder in use and having enough to really fill our facility and and catch

[7:33] up on these different projects. So, um just trying to brainstorm some possible

[7:38] solutions. I' I've thought if we could get a temporary positions, you know,

[7:42] they're limited to 67 days and if needed, you know, we could have them on

[7:46] kind of on standby to fill in either, you know, if we have le running to

[7:50] leaves or if we, you know, are between positions with, you know, people

[7:54] resigning or trying to fill positions too. So, um, we did kind of in the

[7:59] budget plan for the worst case scenario showing, you know, if we, you know,

[8:03] budgeting everything, but in all likelihood if we would fill these

[8:07] positions, uh, we'd be coming in under budget. Um, just cuz they would be kind

[8:13] of filling in when people aren't aren't uh being staffed. And also, you know, if

[8:18] people are going out on any uh Minnesota leave, you know, that

[8:23] that's mostly reimbursed through that program, too. So,

[8:28] That led to one of my questions too because I see the salary and wages are

[8:31] going from 667 to 836. That's 20%. >> Yeah. So, the um I was kind of looking

[8:40] at that a little bit and the um

[8:47] with the uh one thing that happened in the in this

[8:52] year's budget is we combined regular and part-time all into regular. So, that you

[8:57] know makes that look a little bit higher. And then also we uh um

[9:04] went down a little bit in on recycling. So I think factoring everything

[9:10] everything in um between the two recycling and the solid waste budget you

[9:13] know we were looking at about 14% is what I had come up with. So cuz our

[9:19] recycling portion had came down a little bit.

[9:23] » I see that now your preliminary last year was

[9:28] your 26 was 777 like that. And then also this was these

[9:36] were uh you know the all the budget or the HR numbers you know with payroll and

[9:42] uh benefits you know that was done earlier this summer. We've had some you

[9:46] know different staff transitions as well. So that will bring those numbers

[9:50] down even further. Um just where where people are currently on steps and

[9:55] grades. Uh um so I think by the time we get to the

[9:59] final budget numbers, you know, we'll be really close to our budget will be

[10:03] balanced once we factor all that in even with these changes. But um the uh yeah

[10:10] with the budget, you know, part of this study, you know, with this

[10:13] reorganization that had some to do with that with the the grades and you know, a

[10:19] lot of our people are still low on their steps, you know, so they're, you know,

[10:22] getting a step increase and a cost of living increase every year. So it

[10:26] doesn't take long to add up to them increases.

[10:30] So, we lock out any changes to the budget for

[10:35] personnel once we give you guys the preliminary budget in August until after

[10:41] the um the preliminary levy is set and we get our final numbers for um pay or

[10:48] for benefits. Then we'll recalculate them one more time and that's the number

[10:52] we'll use in the TNT meeting. and then we'll calculate one final time before

[10:56] that meeting in December where you approve the final bill. But the previous

[11:00] practice was anytime something changed then payroll would update IFS which

[11:05] means none of the reports I would give you were accurate and for budgeting

[11:09] purposes we don't need real data in there. We need real data in there a

[11:14] couple of times throughout the process. So as Josh is saying some of these

[11:18] things have already changed. they have and they'll be they'll be adjusted twice

[11:22] more before um you'll see a final uh budget for approval.

[11:27] [snorts] >> Hey Josh, I was just looking at a line

[11:31] item for equipment repair. Um it's it goes up fairly significantly. Is there a

[11:38] reason? Is it because we have more equipment now that or is it because the

[11:43] equipment is more specialized? It takes a certain amount of technical aspects to

[11:47] to repair Were you looking at 391? >> Um I am

[11:55] 392. >> Okay. Um well both 39 391 that's I guess

[12:00] I'll just start with that one I guess with the equipment repair that had a

[12:03] significant jump um in the actual spent last year and then also what I'm

[12:07] budgeting for next year and 392 I don't think was quite as steep. Um, but a lot

[12:13] of that is actually has to do with how we've been coding some of our um,

[12:19] repairs. A lot of our uh, oil changes and regular maintenance, we used to have

[12:24] that coded under 6597, which is motor, fuel, and lube, and

[12:29] we've started to um, move that over into that equipment repair category. Oh,

[12:34] » so if you notice like under the 391 um 6563,

[12:40] no, sorry. 3 916567.

[12:45] You know, we have for like 2025, for instance, we budgeted 75,000 and we only

[12:51] spent um 35,000. So, a lot of that kind of just got shifted into that other

[12:56] category. >> Um but we have I mean that that

[12:59] partially explains it, but we have had you know we've seen increasing repair

[13:04] costs too. Um our grinder does you know impact that. we have additional repair

[13:09] costs and next year we're actually budgeting to do some work on our dozer

[13:13] which is why that number is even up a little bit higher for next year. So,

[13:24] um, so I guess just continuing to walk through, uh,

[13:29] kind of hit on a couple of the items here in my that I was going to bring up

[13:32] on the walking through the budget report. Um, again, which with our

[13:36] special assessment, which is under the 391 5051, again, we'd be looking at

[13:42] increasing that by 3%. um

[13:46] our uh fees and our out of county fees in uh plan to have um increasing that

[13:53] slightly uh due to um just increasing trends and also adjustments to the

[13:59] tipping fee. Um jumping down to our um our main part of

[14:07] our budget, our main expenditures with our tipping fees and hauling and

[14:10] loading. So that's what we end up paying to Pulk County. So that's at 62 391 6256

[14:17] and 6259. Um I did keep them relatively stable for

[14:22] next year. We've been coming in a little bit under budget the last couple years.

[14:26] So um just keeping that flat. I think we can account for any increases we might

[14:31] see um if we have any tipping fee increases this year. And we actually

[14:35] have a advisory board meeting tomorrow where we should learn, you know, if we

[14:38] have uh if we're going to be seeing tip fee increases next year or not. But we

[14:43] should have enough room in there. Um, we kind of touched on the equipment was one

[14:48] I wanted to highlight. We touched on that. Um, and then just with the

[14:53] equipment purchases, uh, you know, we have under 391 and 392, you

[14:59] know, 391 the equipment purchases is a little bit down from last year. Again,

[15:03] it just kind of depends on whether we're purchasing recycling or solid waste

[15:08] equipment on on where they fluctuate. So, I'll kind of touch on the equipment

[15:12] a little bit further here. Um, we uh under 391, the equipment we're

[15:20] looking at for next year, uh, just we'll have some some continued container

[15:25] replacements. Uh, we're due to have a forklift replaced, a backhoe replaced,

[15:30] and we're also looking at a skid steer uh, snow pusher replacement for 391.

[15:37] Um, under our 392 equipment purchases, uh, again, we're looking at some

[15:42] containers, uh, we're due to have one of our packer truck recycling trucks

[15:47] replaced. Uh, looking at, um, pallet jack, and then also,

[15:54] uh, with the one organics grant that we received this year, we'll be purchasing

[15:57] some organics equipment, um, that will get Cass County up and running for their

[16:03] organics program. So, that will be outlined in the budget. Um and then also

[16:08] I have outlined in my budget for equipment next year um to do some

[16:13] recycling totes and a trauma screener and them two items would be grant

[16:17] dependent. So if we didn't get grant funding for those then we wouldn't be

[16:21] moving forward with those projects. So, and uh they were outlined kind of if you

[16:27] see in on the revenue side in their 392 budget um in 2027 we're looking at uh

[16:35] and that's under 5306 we're looking at $750,000

[16:40] for um state grants coming in. So again, that was for the $500,000 grant that we

[16:46] already just received from the state. Um, and then looking at possibly trying

[16:51] to get another $250,000 grant from the state for for this dramal and and uh

[16:56] recycling equipment. So, >> well, state grants have come down quite

[17:01] a bit. >> Yeah. From last year, the last two

[17:05] years, you know, we had, you know, kind of all these other projects we've been

[17:08] working on were all kind of bunched together in there. [snorts] So, you

[17:12] know, our reuse project, our organ big organics project that we had, you know,

[17:16] they're them are, you know, have been completed or will be completed. So,

[17:20] they're coming out of the budget. So, >> Josh, just curious, why did you switch

[17:26] out the organics to small containers? >> Um, so like out in front of the

[17:31] building. >> Yeah.

[17:32] » Um, just to try to keep keep it emptied more frequently. Okay.

[17:36] » You know, keep it a little bit cleaner.

[17:41] Um, say Josh, I have a question. Um, as far as containers, like for your, um,

[17:48] like the recycling, the regular garbage and whatnot, um, are we taking those or

[17:54] is your whoever your maintenance person is rebuilding the the containers at all,

[18:00] the metal containers, so that we can reduce the cost of purchasing new? And I

[18:04] I was looking at them the other day when I was there and it seems like it's

[18:08] extremely thin metal on the skids and when you tip it, I mean there's a lot of

[18:12] abrasion there. If we could start using heavier duty materials to rebuild them,

[18:18] that would be great. >> Yeah. So, we uh with our recycling

[18:22] containers, we definitely go through all winter and we're replacing floors and

[18:26] replacing steel. Um, we still try to budget for, you know, a dozen or so

[18:31] containers every year just to keep updating our fleet. Um, but we have

[18:34] quite a few in the back that we, you know, during our slow times of the year

[18:38] we're constantly repairing. Um, and yeah, for our our transfer station bins,

[18:43] uh, we've actually started to use like some of the smaller bins and they're a

[18:46] lot more beefier and heavier duties. So, I think, you know, we're starting to we

[18:50] got a good kind of a good product that we're getting replace replacing some of

[18:54] the older ones with now. So, >> great. Thank you. Um,

[18:58] » but yeah, we do, you know, we do spend a lot uh a lot of time and going through

[19:02] them bins and repairing what we can. So, >> smaller containers, you just have to

[19:06] have staff empty them more frequently. So, it's going to take more staff time.

[19:10] So, it I mean there's pluses and minuses to both ways of doing it, I guess. Thank

[19:15] you. >> You mentioned the skid steer for pushing

[19:18] snow. I mean, is there can equipment be used

[19:22] for more than one item instead of something? Is that dedicated just for

[19:26] pushing snow or what? >> No, we have we have two skid steers in

[19:29] our fleet. One's pretty much loading recycling, you know, loading our

[19:33] recycling up all the time. The other one we use for going out collecting bales um

[19:37] as a backup and pushing snow, too. So, they get uh it's not just for pushing

[19:43] snow, >> keeping it going year round with other

[19:45] uses. Just change you I do that myself. Just change the front end and stuff like

[19:50] that. >> Yep.

[19:51] And this would just be again for what I'm budgeting is this the snow pusher we

[19:55] have is I think probably 15 to 20 plus years old. So um just looking at getting

[20:01] that updated. So,

[20:06] uh, let's see with the

[20:14] Yeah, I guess just the other items in the 392 budget that I was just going to

[20:17] highlight, you know, for the most part and, you know, didn't really have too

[20:21] terribly many big changes throughout the budgets um, from year-over-year. Uh we

[20:27] just had uh just to highlight you know we have again this organics grant under

[20:31] our professional and technical services and uh our um building acquisition

[20:38] construction and site site site improvements under 392 you know that's

[20:43] accounting for that reuse reuse project or sorry organics project for next year.

[20:50] Josh, on on a small scale here, I noticed in the 392 towards the bottom,

[20:55] you've got sales tax at $10,000 where it's been zero the last couple

[21:00] years. [sighs] >> Yeah, that's uh just with some of the

[21:05] the programs that we're starting, you know, just kind of anticipating us, you

[21:09] know, possibly having to get into paying sales tax on certain things. So, you

[21:14] know, by the end by my final budget, we might kind of take that down as just

[21:18] kind of a a buffer in there in case we end up needing it. So,

[21:21] » So, I'm assuming you're collecting sales tax from the end user.

[21:25] » Yep. >> Thank you.

[21:34] » Um, going back down to our um I think it's page 11.

[21:42] um on the packet. So, it's just kind of our the whole summary. Um

[21:48] keep going down, I guess. Up one more page 11 there. Yep. So,

[21:54] we're looking at uh just the overall budget. You can kind of see where the

[21:58] budgets have been um the last few years. again our preliminary budget uh for this

[22:04] year uh looking at coming down a little bit from last year and then um we were

[22:11] having showing expenditures a little bit higher than revenues but I think as I

[22:15] mentioned I think as we get closer to final HR numbers going in there um or

[22:20] payroll numbers going in there it'll be closer to zero if not uh back to the

[22:24] positive side. So then the other thing just to highlight we or a couple more

[22:29] things to highlight on that we have uh um

[22:34] this will be the last year 2027 will be the last year that we'll be repaying our

[22:38] landfill um cover project um that we've been borrow borrowed from from the

[22:43] general fund. So 2027 will be the last year for that. And then the bottom of

[22:48] that kind of the page there, we have our trial balance. Just kind of gives us a

[22:52] snapshot of where we're at year-over-year with with where we're at

[22:55] for reserves that we have. Um, so you can see over the last couple years, it's

[22:59] been a, you know, positive trend into into uh 2026 where we're currently

[23:05] sitting. So,

[23:08] going on the next couple slides, it's just kind of a a budget uh picture that

[23:13] shows uh where our revenues are coming from. Um it hasn't changed that much uh

[23:18] for the last few years. I have a couple years of data in here. You know, 42% of

[23:23] our funding comes from the residential assessment, 34 from the commercial

[23:27] assessment, about 7% from tip fees, 12% from grant funding, and then kind of 5%

[23:35] makes up uh everything from the um sales miscellaneous revenue that we get in and

[23:41] and a little bit of the levy that we get in to meet our score score match

[23:46] requirements. So,

[23:53] And then our uh solid waste assessment. Um going down to page 16. Again, this

[23:59] just shows you the breakout and a little bit of history of where the solid waste

[24:02] assessments been. Um again, for this next year, we'd be proposing a 3%

[24:06] increase. So the residential assessment would go from $245 up to $252.

[24:13] And the minimum commercial assessment would go from $36 up to $316

[24:19] um plus based on based on volume they generate.

[24:23] Um

[24:26] tipping fees on the next sheet there. Uh some of these numbers will change still

[24:33] continue to change and get refined um before we do our final fee schedule

[24:38] review at the end of the year. But we haven't uh increased our tipping fee. We

[24:42] didn't really increase our tipping fees much last year and we're looking at

[24:45] making some adjustments to them um this [snorts] upcoming year. So, uh for the

[24:50] most part, again to highlight, we are um pretty much across the board besides our

[24:54] assessment, we're kind of on par lower than um a lot of our surrounding

[24:59] counties. Um,

[25:05] and we might do some additional diversion projects where we could help

[25:09] lower some of the costs that we have too. So, one of the things we're looking

[25:13] at is possibly trying to recycle sheetrock and drywall, which uh we just

[25:18] going to put that in our final tipping fee schedule where we could have a

[25:21] little reduced rate for accepting that material. So,

[25:29] and then uh towards the end there, I have my capital improvement plan. Um I

[25:34] kind of walk through the equipment that we're looking for for this next year. Um

[25:42] again, couple piece of them items would be grant dependent.

[25:47] And I think we're at a good place with what we're kind of budgeting annually

[25:51] now um for either for moving forward uh either with purchasing equipment or

[25:58] sitting that aside for reserves if we don't have equipment to purchase um each

[26:02] of those years. Um onto our building uh capital building plan. Um again we have

[26:08] our um remodel for the organics transfer station on on slate for 2027.

[26:14] And then, you know, I think we still need to be keep budgeting quite a bit of

[26:20] money into reserves over the next several years. Um, if you notice in my

[26:24] capital plan for buildings out in 2032 and 2033, that's when I kind of put in

[26:30] some of them placeholders for, you know, what's going to happen when we can't be

[26:34] burying our demolition anymore um on sites. So, this doesn't assume any state

[26:41] funding, but you know, it kind of outlines a path forward if we have to

[26:44] start transferring all our demolition waste and what them costs could possibly

[26:48] look like. So, >> would that cost include building a

[26:54] regional landfill then? Our our share. >> This would not be a regional landfill.

[26:59] This would just be our cost if we wanted to be able to transfer material out to a

[27:04] different, you know, a facility that's not within our our regional scope. So,

[27:10] » so that would be an annual cost going forward.

[27:13] » Yep.

[27:17] » That doesn't work. [laughter] >> Oh, that number is huge.

[27:22] » Yeah. And then you get to the landfill. I mean, we we'll have major landfill

[27:25] expenses coming up too, you know, in the next when our landfills fill up in the

[27:29] next 7 to 10 years. Uh, you know, with closure costs and and that was outlined

[27:34] under my the landfill plan there. So, you know, again, this year we'll be last

[27:38] year repaying that uh 150,000 to the general funds. So, again, moving

[27:43] forward, it's going to be imperative that we're sticking money away to plan

[27:47] for these these changes down the road. And I think where we're currently at

[27:51] with our budget, um I think we'll be in a good place to to be doing that on

[27:55] future years here. So, but you know, at the end of the day too

[28:00] with the landfill closure, I mean, the state's been going to be pushing hard

[28:03] for closure costs to help counties coming from, you know, either

[28:08] legislative action or bonding dollars. So, you know, again, it's who knows if

[28:13] anything will get traction and go through, but, you know, there are some a

[28:17] little bit of light that we can get still get state funding for some of

[28:20] these projects and and really help our long-term capital planning needs. So,

[28:26] So that would that would be my next question, John. Is it even realistic to

[28:31] have that demo facility even categorized in 2032?

[28:39] Like we have to deliver it out because it ain't going to happen.

[28:43] I mean, it can't. I don't know how we would do that every year.

[28:50] » Are you looking at the building like the building plan

[28:52] » in the capital budget then like that?

[28:57] I think just what it I think what it does it helps give us some guidelines

[29:00] for when we're going out and asking for um state bonding dollars. You know,

[29:05] gives us a kind of a picture of what we're looking at needing anyway. Um so

[29:09] it's helpful in that regards. But you know, this is a working document. So,

[29:13] you know, there's always going to be changes to it as well. But I think you

[29:17] know what I showed like in the building plan um if we get to that 2020 32 2033

[29:24] and we don't have any state fund state bonding dollars you know looking at

[29:28] having to to bond for you know our future infrastructure needs. So,

[29:38] » we had a breakout session at last year's annual conference and uh it was Santa

[29:44] County that gave a presentation and I don't remember the exact figure but

[29:47] there was a very low amount of the percentage of their waste that goes into

[29:53] landfills. You know, lot they truck off a lot to be burned. Um and you know

[29:58] we're here we're forming a regional um uh disposal group. I mean is it

[30:05] possible for to reach those kind of numbers with the region?

[30:10] » Um well right now I mean in rough number very rough numbers about a third of our

[30:14] MSW goes to the incinerator and gets uh you know to get burned to get processed

[30:20] and and uh you know a lot of that just is the type of material we're taking in.

[30:25] a lot of the, you know, depends on if it's big and bulky and can go through

[30:29] that that process. But we're we're shifting, you know, a fair amount of our

[30:32] waste over there. I think we can we can make improvements by getting uh we don't

[30:37] really have the infrastructure right now to get burnable waste over to from our

[30:41] north transfer station. So, that's where we can um improve upon getting some of

[30:45] that over to our burnable or to the incinerator. But, you know, I think as a

[30:50] region, I think we're definitely going in the right direction with where we're

[30:53] at and where we're set up compared to um the rest of the state. And then also

[30:58] with our push for organics, you know, hopefully seeing that continue to grow

[31:02] and diverting a lot of that waste from the the waist stream as well. So,

[31:07] » yeah, the less you can go to the landfill, the better off we'll be in the

[31:11] long term. And then even with our I mean even with

[31:15] our construction and demolition material. I mean we're you know we're

[31:18] pulling out shingles, we're pulling out concrete. We're starting to pull out

[31:21] clean lumber um with the you know the projects that we've been coming in the

[31:26] hopper with or with this grinder with the screeners. You know it's just

[31:30] continuing to be able to pull out more material out of the demolition landfill

[31:34] as well to um make that process easier down the road too. So,

[31:39] » so the clean lumber, are you putting that at the mall where people just pick

[31:44] it up or what are you doing with it? >> Um, so like right now we're separating

[31:47] out pallets and clean lumber. So that's being turned into the colored mulch

[31:51] right now. >> Oh,

[31:52] » but we also do pull some out that goes up to the reuse center. Um, it's just

[31:56] kind of a evolving process. We still got a long

[32:00] ways to go to I think there's a lot more we can pull out of there. So,

[32:14] and yeah, I think that was about all I had unless you guys have any other other

[32:18] questions. So,

[32:28] any questions on the assessments?

[32:38] I I don't have questions on the assessments. I just do have a comment. I

[32:41] really don't want them to increase if we don't have to. Um

[32:46] just need to I It's tough. We knew this was going to be a tough

[32:52] year going in and probably next year is going to be another tough year. Um, so

[32:58] I'm just trying to take it easy on the taxpayer is basically what my goal is.

[33:03] Um, so >> someone commented to me this weekend

[33:07] that they're seeing a lot more garbage around the county. That has not been my

[33:11] experience. Has anybody else? [snorts] >> No. I I think the the one thing I see is

[33:17] people aren't securing their stuff when they're taking it to the landfill.

[33:21] » Oh, more to the transfer stations. There's a lot of loose stuff laying

[33:24] alongside the ditches. But you know that's just personal

[33:30] habits. You know

[33:34] I guess as a policy question um with Josh this is kind of off it's off the

[33:40] budget topic but anyway um our reuse center um is that open to anybody even

[33:48] if they are out of county or is it just county residents only to take items?

[33:55] Um, typically we will have them, you know, try to get them signed up for our

[33:59] out of county permits if we're taking items. Um, some of that is, you know,

[34:03] hard to track like the rest of our facility, but, you know, that's the

[34:06] intent is that we're just taking either incount items or items that people are

[34:11] bringing that they're part of our permit programs.

[34:13] » Well, what about people removing items from the reuse center and taking them to

[34:20] say Wadina County? >> Um, it's kind of the same. I mean, if

[34:24] people are coming into our facility, they should really be,

[34:27] » you know, having that out of county permit, but it's something we, you know,

[34:31] we really haven't put much time into tracking or enforcing at this point. So,

[34:35] » I just heard a couple complaints from from people that

[34:38] » they know that these people live out of county and yet they're coming here and

[34:42] taking items from the reuse center. They don't know if well, they know one of

[34:46] them lives in an apartment, so they don't need a weed whip because their

[34:49] maintenance is done for them. So, you know, the fear is that they're taking

[34:54] them, selling them, and profiting off of our county taxpayers, and they they just

[35:00] do not think it's fair. >> Yeah.

[35:04] » Everything diverted through the reuse center saves us money.

[35:07] » Yes. I >> taking things out of the reuse center,

[35:09] they're not costing us anything.

[35:14] » It would be really hard to >> I [clears throat] know it would be. I'm

[35:17] just >> I mean I

[35:18] » there's just some frustrations out there that

[35:22] » um that are voiced occasionally. I'm just continuing to voice them.

[35:27] » I did have an attendant at the North Station ask me if I was a resident when

[35:30] I was dropping off some tires. I appreciated that.

[35:36] I I did mention it was my wife's tires. [laughter]

[35:41] Uh yeah, I mean we've had uh you know our out of county permits have been

[35:45] continuing to get more and more of them every year. So I think we're you know

[35:50] again our system isn't isn't perfect by any means but I think we're making good

[35:54] strides on uh um capturing that out of county out of county volumes. So, and we

[36:01] even did uh up at our north station this summer, we even Bel Tramy County was

[36:06] wondering how many of their residents maybe were coming down using our

[36:09] transfer station, especially on days that their facilities are closed. So,

[36:13] our guys actually went out and were doing some survey work up there and uh

[36:18] so, you know, they had a handful of people that kind of turned away when

[36:21] they got questioned, but um for the most part that was good results up there,

[36:25] too. And that would be one way to do it. Just

[36:29] randomly, once or twice a year, interview everybody that comes into the

[36:35] gate. [snorts] You get a sampling of kind of

[36:38] roughly >> how big of an issue it is

[36:42] » and it would slow them down, too. >> Then again, it takes staff time to do

[36:47] that. So, I mean, it's just >> do it once or twice a year.

[36:50] » It all just kind of stacks up. >> Yeah. you on a slow day when they have

[36:55] time? >> Yeah, random and just do it randomly.

[37:01] » All right. >> Anything else, Josh?

[37:05] » All right. Thanks. >> All right. Thank you.

[37:09] » Do I see us now, Jeff? >> Uh, no.

[37:12] » Yep. >> Nope.

[37:14] » We're still waiting for All right, Mike. Other staff.

[37:22] Hopefully Mike has good news. [laughter] >> Right.

[37:30] » You got the same news at the end of the legislative session.

[37:32] » Yeah. [clears throat]

[37:36] » Good morning.

[37:43] » No formal PowerPoint or anything this year. Um

[37:48] what we have in front [clears throat] of us is just a is our proposed 2027

[37:53] budget. Um coupled with the last few years actuals. Um

[38:00] just want to point out a few things and this would rather just um go question

[38:04] answer. We do have um significant revenue

[38:10] loss on one on a partic one of our lines. It's not a loss. What it is is

[38:15] it's with our MA recoveries. Um because we didn't have that position for a

[38:20] significant amount of time, we got it, I believe, late in 23 or halfway through

[38:25] 23. Um there was a huge backlog of monies um tied to MA recoveries and

[38:33] estate recoveries um that we were able to go after and um acquire through that

[38:39] process um which led to um some significant ballooning on those

[38:44] revenues. Um now that we are essentially caught up on that backlog, um what we

[38:53] have to represent now is what we propose we can continue moving forward. Um which

[38:59] when compared to you compare 27 to um 25 and 24 actuals, it it is um about a half

[39:08] a million dollar change in revenue.

[39:17] I'd also like to point out um in our adult services system we have um

[39:27] conservatively put in our numbers. Um I think they're they're fairly accurate as

[39:33] far as our our revenue gain on our waiver programming. um we will have a

[39:39] little better picture of that following third quarter which we should have

[39:45] um late November or early December um to have it updated before the end of the

[39:50] year but um that's with our

[39:56] um caddy CAC uh and developmental

[40:01] disability waiverss uh as well as our EW. So those are tough those are tough

[40:06] to estimate moving out um because the the billing cycles are be are behind and

[40:13] um at the beginning of this year with the changes they made

[40:20] our our all our claiming was going in and revenue wasn't coming in for so it's

[40:25] kind of it kind of got backlog at this state which did um make me nervous there

[40:30] for a while but it is starting to catch up but um so I'm hoping that'll kind of

[40:35] iron it itself out. And it had to do with um them changing rates on what

[40:40] services cost and they weren't prepared for the first of the year. Um so

[40:44] counties were implementing service uh and then unable to receive money back

[40:49] for it. So

[40:59] » Josh, can you explain to Josh, sorry, Mike, can you explain um

[41:04] so what we passed to Prime West for the training?

[41:08] » Will you help me understand how that's going to be implemented in Hover County

[41:14] and do you think that that will result in a lot of changes? looking at Mer

[41:18] County it was significant >> um

[41:22] » lot of home placements right >> yeah so the safe generations program

[41:28] that is being proposed uh for the member counties of prime west

[41:34] is in an attempt to um one follow through with the um mandates out of the

[41:42] MAFPA legislation um which in that legislation their their

[41:47] goal goal is to um making sure that we lower or that we're reviewing with um a

[41:53] little more scrutiny on out of home placements. um these member counties um

[42:00] MER County being the the pilot or the pioneer of this particular program um is

[42:06] offering training um so that we can kind of get on board

[42:11] one follow those mandates through the MAP legislation and then at the same

[42:15] time kind of lower those costs um through their presentation which is all

[42:19] I've had um it looks like it's a proven program I

[42:25] mean at least for one county. Um it does look like they have

[42:30] more of a collaborative setup in their county. Um which we we would have to

[42:35] work towards um as far as getting law enforcement involved. Um maybe change

[42:40] some changing within our screening and screening teams, but um I think we can

[42:45] we can get there. Um our auto placements by number I believe have been going

[42:51] down. um that doesn't always mean the cost is going down. Um [clears throat]

[42:59] one one placement that is requiring 2 to one staffing uh for a kid or unable to

[43:08] find a um placement within your own state can balloon that number

[43:13] significantly unfortunately. But as far as doing a better job in the auto health

[43:19] placements and making sure that we are only doing what's necessary, I think it

[43:23] does work. Um there is a training coming up. Um and we will have our entire um

[43:29] children's services attending that training here in October.

[43:34] » So it's many hours over several months. Correct.

[43:38] » The training. >> Uhhuh.

[43:40] » I believe so. Um, thus far all I got, uh, I believe it was last week, maybe

[43:44] the week before was kind of the save the date. We have more information coming.

[43:49] » So, the one thing I remember is, um, from the presentation,

[43:53] law enforcement was somehow involved and there was a list created. And so,

[43:59] um, if there was an emergency with a child,

[44:03] um, if I'm understanding this correctly, a solution

[44:08] was found quickly because of the collaboration is, and do we currently

[44:12] not do that? Is this would that be something new for us?

[44:17] » It would be a change, I believe, for us. We we do collaborate with law

[44:20] enforcement. Um, I believe what MER has is law enforcement actually in their

[44:25] screening team every day. >> Oh, okay. I wondered about that. Okay.

[44:30] » So, I believe Itaska has that similar model.

[44:35] » Okay. >> So, I'm just looking at the big picture

[44:38] right now to stimulate some more discussion, but

[44:44] our expenditures have gone up basically since 2023 from 9 a.5 million to 12

[44:50] million. Our revenues have stayed relatively flat

[44:56] » between that time, but our levy total county cost is the requested levy

[45:03] is going from 2.7 million to 7 million. >> Correct.

[45:09] » I I I don't know how we do this. Well, if we could look at more

[45:14] historical data, I think you'd show in 2016 that the levy used to be in three

[45:19] at the $3 million mark and it was cut for about four or five years in a row

[45:24] and then it stayed stagnant for two years and then the request to increase

[45:29] it started in 2024. So, there was an 8-year gap where it did not keep up

[45:36] » likely because the fund balance was high.

[45:38] » That's why it was cut. Now our our fund balance is hovering at the red.

[45:45] » So I get your point, but my point is is the growth the growth of social services

[45:52] is is crazy. >> Yeah.

[45:57] » And I don't know that we're any better off for it.

[46:01] Seems seems like we're not.

[46:05] So I don't know. I don't know how we do it. I don't know how we do a $2 million

[46:09] levy increase, period. I mean, that's what is that almost 30%.

[46:16] » 40 >> 40

[46:17] » 40. >> That's like whoa. Mix that with public

[46:20] safety. The way that's gone up the last couple I I just don't know how we do

[46:24] this. >> It's not possible.

[46:29] Something's going to break. I mean, the state's not increasing

[46:34] hardly anything on on what they're getting and also federal.

[46:38] » No. >> Why is the county having to increase so

[46:41] much? I mean, are the programs all um required that we're doing everything?

[46:50] All programs in in our office right now are required mandated except for one

[46:55] service that we operate. Um, and that's with our family- based um, social worker

[47:01] program, which I would not recommend getting rid of.

[47:05] It it it adds such a bridge to the children's

[47:09] services programming um, that if we rid of that and then contracted it out or

[47:16] tried to eat the cost with just the workers we have, we would we would go

[47:20] backwards. They're a lower paying position anyways.

[47:26] Um, not that that's but you're not cost savings isn't there to what potentially

[47:31] the cost would be of adding hours or overtime to the social workers.

[47:37] » I know when I was with Mahubby a number of times I heard Liz talk about she'd

[47:43] hold up her hands and start out, you know, where they start with the programs

[47:48] and then at very end is getting them off the the programs. I mean, are we trying

[47:52] to get them off programs? I

[47:57] it depends where you on what your reference is. If it's in adult services,

[48:01] typically not. There's no there's no ending. I mean, you qualify for a

[48:06] service based on a disability or a developmental delay. Um

[48:11] we're not going to change that. Um so numbers grow and the only way to um

[48:16] decrease is when folks move or they pass away. We're not going to we're not going

[48:22] to service somebody back to mental health capacity. We're not can't service

[48:26] someone back into um gaining um a different developmental um achievement

[48:34] levels. But what we can do is put services around them so that they can

[48:37] live a life similar to everyone else.

[48:42] We've increased our um assessments over the last uh 10 years as well in Hubard

[48:49] County through our min choices program which is o which does open up services

[48:53] to more people but they're all eligible based on the the rules and regulations

[48:57] that exist. >> Is there a large percentage of people

[49:01] who have moved into the area then immediately go on to public assistance?

[49:07] » No, I don't believe we've had any increase in our population.

[49:11] increase in services um and our highest number is with our elderly.

[49:17] » So there's two basic things commissioner. I mean one of your

[49:21] questions I think is related to cash assistance. People are on cash

[49:24] assistance for very short periods of time. People are on programs who are in

[49:30] nursing homes or in mental health situations for long periods of time.

[49:34] That's our elderly population for the most part aside from some of the the

[49:38] children stuff. um that we know when we have auto home placements get to be

[49:42] expensive. Um nobody's getting a paycheck from Hubard

[49:47] County Social Services. Um cash cash programs are rent assistance. They're

[49:54] gas assistance. There are things that help people bridge a gap so that they

[49:58] can continue to work at a job that they have or stay in a place that they have

[50:02] to avoid them needing long-term services. And those short-term services

[50:06] are weeks, 30 days, very short periods of

[50:12] time intervals. People are moved off of those because they're only um short-term

[50:18] programs. The long-term programs are primarily our elderly population in

[50:23] Hubard County. Having a higher percentage of elderly than just about

[50:26] any county in the state means we're going to have higher services. Um

[50:32] there's there are other I can give other context and I don't like it any more

[50:35] than you that we have to we have to be looking at a levy like this but this is

[50:39] the that's how the math works out relative to the programs we have to

[50:44] support. Um, when I look at

[50:51] $10 billion worth of county um, uh, budgets across the state,

[51:00] 43% comes from property taxes. 32% goes to human service expenses.

[51:07] And when I look at Harvard County, 37% of our of our budget comes from

[51:13] levy. So le less than the average county and only 23%

[51:19] of our budget is going to human services. Um

[51:24] honestly the numbers are catching up with us. Uh like like other counties

[51:29] have been paying those kinds of rates. where we're high is um

[51:37] honestly in our I mean I hate to say it in our in our highway department

[51:41] typically uh transit is about 10% of a budget

[51:47] um statewide for counties and it's 20% of our budget

[51:53] but that's reflected in the fact that people always comment on how good a

[51:55] roads we have and how incremental that has been.

[52:00] If we looked at and it and you can you can't change the past, right? But if

[52:04] from 20 instead of decreases from 2017 to 2022, if we'd have stayed at 3%.

[52:13] Just a marginal increase like we did with highway department. We would have

[52:16] collected $6 million more and we'd still only be at 3% and the levy request this

[52:21] year would be about 5 a.5 million because we'd be able to use some of that

[52:24] builtup fund balance. I understand why those things happen from 2017 to 2022,

[52:31] but we went just a little bit too far. Um, April this year, we were

[52:37] writing checks we couldn't cash. >> We had two months in a row where our

[52:40] operating budget was in the red. Yes.

[52:45] » So Tom, I agree that Muhammad is very proactive at trying to change people's

[52:51] lives. And I think part of this picture and the frustration, Dave, is that state

[52:56] and federally, they're not that's not part of the

[53:01] equation. And Liz will be the first to tell you, I

[53:04] mean, this is intensive. To change somebody's life, it takes four to five

[53:08] years. And and I I don't know what to do with

[53:14] this either. My problem my problem with the whole big picture thing it's not

[53:19] it's not Harvard County per se it's not our social service it's it's the big

[53:22] picture thing is >> at what po at what point in time do you

[53:26] push back against this stuff because if you don't push back it doesn't change

[53:30] the same old same old that the definition of insanity is doing the same

[53:34] thing over and over again expecting different results well if the state's

[53:37] going to keep acting like they are and the counties just say okay I guess we

[53:40] just have to raise our levy and do it nothing is going to change

[53:46] zippon and the rate of growth that's going on here. It'll swallow us up

[53:52] before the next decade if it grows keeps growing like this. This this just cannot

[53:57] happen. And somebody needs to wake the hell up.

[54:01] And we know where it is. It's it's St. Paul. But if you can't get them to move,

[54:07] you kind of got to push back somehow. And I I I don't know what the right

[54:11] answer to that is, but um we have to solve our problems. The pro the problems

[54:17] we were dealt with from St. Paul and the federal government, we are now forced to

[54:22] deal with and our taxpayers are going to have to deal with it in one way or

[54:25] another. And we have to figure out how to best make that work.

[54:29] We got to be better. We got to be better than St. Paul.

[54:35] Otherwise, it's going to hurt our entire community.

[54:39] because people can't afford this and it it just it's been going like this

[54:44] for three, four years now. This is insane

[54:47] basically ever since co I mean it's just like here we go. At some point we got to

[54:52] turn the ship around. I'm not sure how to do it. I'm not an

[54:58] expert in your department. So I don't know

[55:03] how to do it. But the first things I would look at is can you reorganize? Can

[55:07] you do get by with less? We have to figure something out. We

[55:12] cannot just keep raising the levy. >> The challenge is

[55:16] » we have to do something different. >> Every FTE you eliminate or think about

[55:20] cutting that's providing services is also bringing in revenue. So every time

[55:25] you take 50,000 off of your cost, you're taking $40,000 off your revenue and

[55:31] you're making the imbalance. still gaining ground,

[55:34] » but you're not really. And and >> and when we get to the point of error

[55:39] rates and not making um not meeting requirements for case loads, etc., then

[55:45] our reimbursements go down even more and you start losing money. The the the

[55:50] biggest challenge is the thing that was has been easy to cut for the last 30

[55:54] years, public health. Public health is optional in the state of Minnesota. So

[55:59] spending has gone down and every dollar spent in public health puts back5 to $25

[56:06] back in returns. Those are the programs that that catch people before they fall

[56:11] off the cliff and require those programs and the fact that Harvard County um like

[56:18] many other counties outsources that right and we just take the grant pass

[56:21] through money and we don't we don't put anything into public health. So that

[56:26] that amount of money spent in the community, the amount of money for

[56:29] that's available from a hubby and others to to do those things and and intercede

[56:33] on people who are going to need assistance.

[56:37] We've not spent we could spend our money on that and in the long term have to

[56:42] spend less money on long-term programs. Um but the way the way that that's gone,

[56:48] we're we're not doing that. with what you just you just said there

[56:53] in looking at the numbers here that you got on the screen right in front of me.

[56:56] You see those state and federal reimbursement levels, they haven't

[57:01] changed with the additional people that we've added since 20 uh 2023. They

[57:06] haven't changed much at all. So, I mean, our Zit employee who who can bring in

[57:12] revenue doesn't look like it's happening. Those are actually going down

[57:17] as a result of the 2025 federal legislation and the state cost shares.

[57:21] Our estimates are that we're not going to pay that. We're going to see a

[57:24] reduction in the revenues we get passed through to us for that work.

[57:29] » Even in previous years prior to 2027,

[57:35] » those overall numbers, Tom, that you're looking at on that page are made up of

[57:39] several lines. Um that's just the total between all the

[57:44] revenue lines for a state. Um which we can

[57:51] » Nancy >> bring a different day or show you what

[57:53] they all are. Um but it's potent. There is some that probably went down, some

[57:58] that don't do go up. I think where you're probably more along

[58:03] what your first question was whenever you're

[58:07] talking about state and federal revenues is when you're talking adult services,

[58:11] you haven't se seen a increase in what a case manager can earn since 2014.

[58:18] So that that dollar amount they can bring in is the

[58:23] same. So, if they're bringing in $100 an an hour as a case manager in 2014 and

[58:29] we're spending it at today's price in 2026, it ain't the same. I

[58:34] » I can remember uh I don't know how many positions, but there probably a few that

[58:40] were added over the number of years that I've been here and it was based on a

[58:45] grant with an expiration date. Are have those have you keeping track of when

[58:50] those expiration dates for grants come? And is that employee still with the

[58:54] county after an expiration or the expiration of a grant?

[59:01] » I don't know that >> I'm not aware of any positions that were

[59:03] grant fun. >> That's law enforcement more specifically

[59:06] than >> I can think of one position in adult

[59:08] services that was supplemented by Prime West for a period of time. I do not

[59:12] recall that it was set up with a sunset date though.

[59:15] » Okay. And part of the reason um that position

[59:19] was added was out of the at that time it was 13 counties and we had a much higher

[59:25] case load than any other county and we were behind in getting

[59:30] the data needed to prime west.

[59:34] So so here's an example and Mike please understand we're not frustrated with you

[59:41] we're just frustrated. Um, so when I go to AMC

[59:47] and I get frustrated because the answer is always we have to ask for more money.

[59:52] We have to ask for more money. But this was an example given in one of the other

[59:57] counties. They had a child was either 12 or 13 and was extremely violent and

[1:00:03] there wasn't anywhere to put him. in that particular county, I don't even

[1:00:06] remember which county it was, but they had two social workers and the and the

[1:00:12] child was literally on the floor in the social work department. And one of the

[1:00:18] things that aggravated the child greatly was his phone,

[1:00:23] but they could not take the phone away from him even though they knew that his

[1:00:28] behavior would greatly improve because the parent would not sign off.

[1:00:35] And so we are frustrated but part of it is this big picture that we don't have

[1:00:40] any control over. And so Dave when you say we have to do something and I'm

[1:00:44] thinking if we don't do it this if I understand it correctly the state will

[1:00:50] come in and do it and then bill us. I don't know what the answer is unless all

[1:00:54] 87 counties get together and just say we're not going to do this. So, you're

[1:00:59] going to get to the point then where social services and highway or uh public

[1:01:04] safety are driving the entire budget and other departments, you're going to have

[1:01:07] to cut services in other departments. >> Is that right?

[1:01:11] » No, it's not right. But I I'm just saying the the way it it's my

[1:01:16] understanding the way it's set up, >> they're they're handing us unfunded

[1:01:21] mandates and if we don't do them, they're going to come in and do them for

[1:01:24] us and then bill us. >> My whole point behind the whole thing is

[1:01:29] all the counties. Nobody's screaming loud enough about it.

[1:01:31] » So the con but the solution is for all the counties to get together

[1:01:35] » because we could solve this problem tomorrow if you could control your own

[1:01:38] programs on how you did them. This would not be that hard to fix. You could do it

[1:01:44] the way you saw fit to serve our residents best instead of being told

[1:01:47] what to do all the time. This would not be that hard to fix.

[1:01:53] » I just have a couple of questions about on the revenue end there. These are

[1:01:57] minor changes, but I mean there's $20,000. I think it's in chemical

[1:02:01] dependency. Um, rule 25, not rule 25 assessments, CD consolidated fund admin.

[1:02:09] I mean, in the past few years, it's been 26,000, 24,000, 15,000, and 27 it's

[1:02:17] estimated is $50. And that's a to me that jumps out right away that hey, did

[1:02:23] a program change? Is there a funding source that dropped away? Um, or is

[1:02:28] there a program that has been eliminated that we used to use to gain some

[1:02:33] revenue? And then I think that happens in mental health as well. Uh, children's

[1:02:40] mental health services. There's a zero when it was 15,000, 10,000, 8,000.

[1:02:47] Um, >> arrestment grant.

[1:02:50] » Yeah. Yeah. I'm just kind of wondering did something

[1:02:53] change at the federal or state level that's impacting our revenues

[1:02:58] um in a negative way? >> I mean I in a in the big picture it's

[1:03:02] not much money but you know in the total budget but

[1:03:07] » y >> so that that children's respit grant we

[1:03:11] did not receive that or we will not receive that for 27.

[1:03:15] » Okay. Um, and the chemical dependency fund

[1:03:19] admin is

[1:03:24] » right here.

[1:03:31] » Case manager. >> Well, it's

[1:03:36] » I know it's hard for you to know all the ins and outs of these programs because

[1:03:39] they're vast. >> It's just

[1:03:41] » complicated. Yeah, sure not. Is that just because

[1:03:44] » I'm guessing because I it's a guess without having it in front of me is we

[1:03:48] no longer offer um we don't do assessments and case management work out

[1:03:52] of our office. >> Okay. All right.

[1:03:54] » So all that's done and handled through the community. So we just refer out

[1:03:58] » Okay. All right.

[1:04:02] And I'm just trying to pick up revenue wherever we can because we need help. So

[1:04:07] if there's something that we overlooked or or what have you that

[1:04:11] » and the challenge is with a with a fund balance that's running on empty is we

[1:04:16] have to be conservative and overestimate expenditures just a little bit and

[1:04:21] underestimate [snorts] revenues a little bit. Um because if we get to the point

[1:04:24] where we don't have fund balance, we're writing checks out of the general fund

[1:04:27] to cover it. Um

[1:04:31] but I would like to to point out um I took over in midocctober of last year.

[1:04:39] Um shortly after that or right around that same time we did uh implement uh in

[1:04:45] the social service parts of children and adult services a policy regarding case

[1:04:50] noting. Um it it is in our region, northern region, I would consider it one

[1:04:57] of the um tougher, more more pressured um policies as far as time entry and

[1:05:04] amount of time that needs to be put in per month. And then it is it is followed

[1:05:08] through and monitored um not by the supervisors but actually by myself. I

[1:05:13] monitor that every month with NY's help. um

[1:05:18] that I think in time will make some change. We made it late in in 25 and

[1:05:25] it's been um implemented through 26. So there were some growing pains in that

[1:05:29] first quarter and probably somewhere into the second quarter, but it is on um

[1:05:35] it's going well and um I think I mean everyone's adhering to it the best they

[1:05:39] can. So with that is the increased notes which means we have um more

[1:05:46] claims that we can make. That doesn't mean they're all payable, but it is it's

[1:05:51] notes are going in so that they can make it to finance so that we can process

[1:05:55] that down to the state. Um also, um with the

[1:06:01] changes that we made late last year with some staffing to um repurpose some

[1:06:06] positions, um in an effort to just kind of rebalance,

[1:06:10] we did see um our targeted case management numbers um which began in

[1:06:17] August of 26 um all increase. Um I don't have the I don't have a full

[1:06:24] understanding of how they calculate that number but it is based on number of

[1:06:28] worker per cases and am the amount of work they can perform. Um, so they have

[1:06:33] a a happy zone and I I think we're approaching that where we've seen um in

[1:06:38] our child welfare TCM uh we had an increase from 26 to the 27 budget uh by

[1:06:46] 30%. In our children's mental health TCM it increased almost 14%.

[1:06:52] And our VAD and adult mental health uh rates went up 21%.

[1:06:58] So I do I can I strongly um strongly feel that that is due to that change. So

[1:07:05] I know there was some concern and confusion that maybe that move wasn't

[1:07:11] what we needed to do or maybe didn't work. Um and when I look at these

[1:07:16] numbers that's a direct reflection of those changes.

[1:07:20] » Um I don't know the ins and outs of the system. Uh but uh

[1:07:27] the move to the front desk staff to the case aid

[1:07:33] position instead of being so to say receptionist office support.

[1:07:39] » Um are those hours billable when they do the case aid work then

[1:07:44] » for for the two? >> Yeah.

[1:07:46] » Up there. Um they're not right. We left them off. So they're

[1:07:52] still under admin. >> Oh, okay. All right.

[1:07:57] » What it did is open up what they can do and how they can assist.

[1:08:01] » Mhm. Okay. >> But it is not a monetary gain.

[1:08:05] » Okay. All right. That was that was my question because if they could be

[1:08:08] utilized to do some case aid work that would increase billable hours, we'd just

[1:08:12] be able to capture a little bit of revenue anyway off of it.

[1:08:15] » Okay. Thank you. like the dysfunctional um system that your staff has to

[1:08:22] implement things on. If that was actually up and working efficiently,

[1:08:29] would that increase staff time by 25%.

[1:08:35] » I don't know the percentage of the what the required work is going to add. I do

[1:08:41] feel it's going to add some um if we can get it organized and structured so that

[1:08:48] it fits what we need. I think we can

[1:08:54] minimize that that percentage or that number, but it is going to increase

[1:08:59] because we they're telling us we do have to follow through with a little more

[1:09:04] scrutiny, a little more extra work, a little digging behind the scenes, more

[1:09:08] screening on um this um so it will increase.

[1:09:13] » And you know what? I didn't I didn't phrase my question correctly. So if if

[1:09:18] the system was up and running so it it doesn't crash or you don't have to enter

[1:09:23] it in multiple what I meant how much time is wasted because of the states

[1:09:30] amount of working >> yeah because that's a factor also

[1:09:34] » and that's more in reference to income maintenance um but speaking all programs

[1:09:38] computers in general on any given week we have manh hours

[1:09:44] that are

[1:09:47] sedendary. I mean, we're sitting there waiting for something to load or um a

[1:09:51] network cut or um >> or having to reput it in.

[1:09:56] » Yep. Or duplication of entry. >> Yeah.

[1:09:58] » Um so there is there is some time there. Um I wouldn't know how to project it as

[1:10:05] to percentage or hours, but there certainly is. I mean, even on an

[1:10:08] administrative side, there's times where I I want to get in and log into a

[1:10:13] program and I'm waiting for a spinning wheel to load. Um,

[1:10:19] so >> because even though there was money

[1:10:21] allocated, there isn't even a date to start.

[1:10:25] » No, there's no plan relative to the problem we're facing here too, I don't

[1:10:29] think it would even make a dent. The um probably the biggest challenge is

[1:10:37] the number of employees the state employs in all of these divisions. None

[1:10:42] of whom provide direct services. >> None of whom provide direct services.

[1:10:46] They are hired to oversee and watch and count the

[1:10:52] tallies and the beans and report and document

[1:10:57] all the legislative. Every time we have someone come in and say you got to watch

[1:11:00] this, you got to do this twice a year instead of once a year. You got to check

[1:11:04] this all these eligibility, all the requirements into this old system.

[1:11:11] If our if our numbers have gone up from 54 to to 70 in human services in in

[1:11:19] eight nine years, theirs have tripled. The number of

[1:11:23] employees the state employs is double or triple what it was in the same amount of

[1:11:26] time. and they're not providing any direct service.

[1:11:31] That's how last year 25 I think um the human service budget exceeded the

[1:11:38] education budget >> in the state of Minnesota for the first

[1:11:40] time because we're paying for things that aren't provi that are not

[1:11:45] translating into services that are helping people. and Prime West

[1:11:50] will tell you that they're not reading the reports they're asking for because

[1:11:53] they'll come back and ask the very same thing and Prime West will say, "Well, we

[1:11:56] already sent that to you the last quarter."

[1:12:00] » If there's if there's an opportunity for reform, it's the it's in the way the

[1:12:03] state is restructured so that more of those dollars that are are available

[1:12:08] become available to provide services. But to Dave's point,

[1:12:14] » counties cannot con sustain this. >> And you're 100% right. The bulk of the

[1:12:20] problem is is at the state level. So the bigger question is how are the counties

[1:12:25] going to react to it and how are they going to force change

[1:12:28] because it can't keep going like this. And I just want to summarize this for

[1:12:32] the public so the public understands exactly what we're dealing with. We're

[1:12:37] asking for a 40% local levy increase. Total revenues are down approximately

[1:12:42] $750,000 due to the cost shifts. Expenses are going to be up

[1:12:48] approximately $750,000 due to mandates that come and and other

[1:12:54] factors like our payroll and yeah, negotiations and all that.

[1:12:59] » So that's one and a half million plus. Then we're trying to shore up our fund

[1:13:03] balance. So, we're we're trying to shore up the fund balance by another $460,000.

[1:13:09] So, of this roughly $2 million levy increase, how much of the expense is an

[1:13:15] added FTE for 27? We adding any FTEEs and how much?

[1:13:20] » One one budgeted >> one FTE at 135

[1:13:24] » 135,000 >> and then uh

[1:13:26] » which is a which will go into um children's

[1:13:32] services to help structure and lead um through the new um

[1:13:39] MAFPA. So for this year only or this coming year it is offset by 100,000

[1:13:47] » and the other the other hidden thing here is this gets worse in 28.

[1:13:52] » Yeah, it does. >> This is just the beginning. This gets

[1:13:55] worse in 28. It could be just as bad if not worse next year when we budget this.

[1:14:01] So the question I would have it, can we reorganize in every any way and save

[1:14:06] that FTE? That's the homework I would give you

[1:14:11] over the next next few weeks. Can we reduce services to a bare minimum? Can

[1:14:16] you identify what though what that would look like and how it would look? And

[1:14:21] » because unless you actually unless we actually do the exercise, we don't know.

[1:14:26] You have to we have to unfortunately do the exercise to see if there's anything

[1:14:30] there. There may be, there may not be. Um, but I think we need to do the

[1:14:34] exercise. And I don't think we can handle more than a 750 to a million

[1:14:40] dollar levy increase here this year because we're going to get hit again

[1:14:44] next year and it's just going to get ugly in a real big hurry if we don't do

[1:14:49] something to try and control it. Now, >> we can certainly go through that

[1:14:53] exercise. We've talked about it on our supervisor meetings. We do meet twice a

[1:14:57] month. Um, and it is a topic we bring up. Do we have the right people in the

[1:15:01] arena out in the right spots?

[1:15:07] I would

[1:15:10] strongly think about if we don't promote that $2

[1:15:15] million increase and our

[1:15:20] actual ends up 700 to a million over budget like it has

[1:15:27] the previous three years. We'll be in more trouble then.

[1:15:31] » Yeah. >> Because the checks will still have to be

[1:15:33] written. That go that goes to that next question.

[1:15:37] What is the bare minimum, you know, that we would have to do to meet the all the

[1:15:42] requirements the state is asking to us. >> Maybe it's gotten to that point.

[1:15:48] » I I understand Dave's point and I and I agree for the most part, but but I'm

[1:15:52] also thinking if we do shave everything down to the

[1:15:58] absolute bare minimum, what cost is it going to be to public health? What cost

[1:16:04] is it going to be to law enforcement? What cost is going to be uh spread to

[1:16:09] any other organizations or any other part of government that doesn't affect

[1:16:15] our budget exactly on the front, but we see it

[1:16:20] um as expenditures through other means. Um

[1:16:27] I I don't know, you know, how is that going to impact the rest of the

[1:16:30] community as a whole or the county as a whole? If we take those things away, you

[1:16:35] know, there's not always someone else there to to pick up that slack.

[1:16:41] Um, like I said, maybe we'll have more mental health issues, so then all of a

[1:16:45] sudden we're skyrocketing there or more child issues. We got an increase there.

[1:16:51] I mean, it because you cut it to the bare minimum doesn't mean it really

[1:16:56] saves you in the long term. So, and it is it's a battle. It is a huge battle.

[1:17:02] And if those numbers remain the same, Steve,

[1:17:06] we do we will border on potential going back to where we were on

[1:17:12] staff burnout and lack of retention, which has been a goal of Hubards

[1:17:15] counties in the last five to six years is strengthening retention, morale of

[1:17:20] staff, longevity. And if we do cut to the minimum, even if

[1:17:25] the cases stay the same, now you have a workforce that can't keep at that rate.

[1:17:31] And then you also have to account for people being out on a maternity leave or

[1:17:36] an extended uh family issue that they can't come in to work, you know, and

[1:17:42] then you have to try to backfill to fill that void. And so that may involve some

[1:17:47] overtime, you know, that just increases the amount of burnout that happens

[1:17:51] within the system. And it's a tough enough thing that everybody has to deal

[1:17:55] with to begin with. Um, so I'm just I'm frustrated with a lot of things, but um,

[1:18:02] it's just it's hard to really come up with an idea to to solve the problem

[1:18:09] because we haven't created all these problems ourselves within our

[1:18:13] organization. It it's the state and the federal really that has has

[1:18:18] » changed the dynamics of everything and they don't have a solution. They just

[1:18:22] they just want to keep kicking that can down the road, make somebody else pay

[1:18:26] for it, and it's the county taxpayer. >> Correct.

[1:18:28] » And it's it's shameful. >> Yeah. The failure of the state to manage

[1:18:32] its budget properly has now become a local tax liability. [snorts]

[1:18:36] » Yep. >> You know, and

[1:18:39] if they don't fund the mandates they put on us,

[1:18:43] we can't just keep past at some point in time, you got to seriously look at

[1:18:46] cutting services because you you won't have a choice and that's where you're

[1:18:49] going to end up anyhow. And that's really where the taxpayers of the county

[1:18:54] need to contact the people at the state and their federal representatives to

[1:18:59] keep pushing the envelope to tell tell them they're disgusted with it because

[1:19:04] we can voice it up all we want at AMC and and any legislative uh time we get,

[1:19:11] but if you don't have other people backing you and saying those same

[1:19:16] things, they're just they just figure, oh, you're just complaining to

[1:19:20] complaint. you just want to cut your budget. You don't want, you know, so it

[1:19:25] takes more than just us. >> It does. But the environment has been

[1:19:28] they haven't been they haven't even been running their social programs

[1:19:32] effectively and then they're piling them more on every year.

[1:19:35] » It's like at some point you got to fix the ones you got. So I'll just make a

[1:19:40] note that we haven't discussed is that in 2023 we use 1.3 million cash reserves

[1:19:45] and 24 800,000 and 25 750,000 budgeted to use 120 this year but we are

[1:19:53] outperforming that we are ahead of schedule on revenues and expenses are

[1:19:58] about at at when I'm looking at the financials from July

[1:20:03] um we can have a conversation about that this this number Um, remember this is

[1:20:09] the only department that we when we calculate payroll then we take 2% off

[1:20:14] because we always have vacancies in that. This is the only group that we've

[1:20:17] done that since since I've been here and half of this is that credit for having

[1:20:23] vacancies which is not good, [snorts and laughter]

[1:20:27] right? It's it's stress on on on on the people that are still there and doing

[1:20:31] the transitions but it's something that we've noted we can always put in there.

[1:20:34] So half of that is this. So, I have a couple of ideas relative to the overall

[1:20:39] budget request that we um are going to look at

[1:20:44] next, but um I just wanted to point out that this right now we're we look like

[1:20:51] we're instead of spending $120,000 of fund balance, we're cont we're kicking

[1:20:57] back a few hundred,000 based on performance this year to date through

[1:21:00] July. um which is good and necessary, but um

[1:21:08] and it kind of turns the tide a little bit from the year previous.

[1:21:15] [cough] I just want to say, Mike, you you manage

[1:21:18] a complicated department and I appreciate

[1:21:23] what you do. >> Thank you.

[1:21:26] » We all I think we all do. >> I think they've done a fantastic job

[1:21:30] since Um well obviously in the last four years um or five years since I've been

[1:21:37] here the staff um have been much happier. They've been much I think

[1:21:43] motivated to be doing their work. If we could really solve some of the problems

[1:21:47] at the state with the systems that they're using. If we could find some way

[1:21:50] to balance out the who's paying for what and and how much of the money that's

[1:21:54] allocated is actually getting used to provide services, we would be having a

[1:21:59] significantly different conversation. But um I've I sit in try to sit on on

[1:22:04] the supervisor meetings and those people are dedicated and they're working with

[1:22:07] their staff to do everything they possibly can. I know that Mike is

[1:22:10] reviewing those numbers all the time. I also see the the the

[1:22:16] comments we get from the public because of the [clears throat] impact that staff

[1:22:19] have made on their lives which are not things that we can always share with

[1:22:23] everybody, right? Um, we hear that and we got to find a way to generally share

[1:22:28] those things so that you under understand

[1:22:32] sometimes you do get a win. Um, sometimes sometimes you're just managing

[1:22:37] a bad situation, right? End of life is a bad situation and that's the biggest

[1:22:41] that's the biggest check writer for human services in the state of Minnesota

[1:22:46] is end of life stuff. Um, that's just the way we've set up our financial

[1:22:51] systems. people go to go into a facility, we take all their we we strip

[1:22:56] away anything they've ever had until they get down to having a thousand

[1:22:59] dollars left in their bank account and then we pay those fees for them until

[1:23:05] they die. I mean that that's our end of life strategy um in the state of

[1:23:09] Minnesota and the way we manage that and the number of people that we have on

[1:23:12] programs like that is higher than anywhere else because of our aging

[1:23:17] population.

[1:23:20] But we will go back and we will take a look and test some of those theories

[1:23:23] that you've asked us to test. Um I will take a look at our proposed projected

[1:23:28] fund balance for 2020 end of 2026 and see if there's anything we can do with

[1:23:32] that. Um

[1:23:37] and then the one thing that I do want to do that this tries to get at this

[1:23:41] summary, but it's still a lot of still a lot of data. um when the three of us

[1:23:45] have a conversation of this, we can go through and we can pick through it

[1:23:47] because we're used to working with this stuff. But um one of the things that I

[1:23:53] think we need to we need to explain is little pie chart that shows how much is

[1:23:57] happening in adult services, right? That end of life stuff is how much is

[1:24:01] happening in mental health and children's services. Um so you can so

[1:24:05] you can get that in the context of um of what's happening with that. And then

[1:24:10] with the um cash assistance, where does that come in and how does it work and

[1:24:14] get some statistics on that for you because you need you people will those

[1:24:18] are the questions people in the community are going to ask you and you

[1:24:21] need to have answers about that

[1:24:25] » and I know your staff goes above and beyond as well, Mike. Um they donate

[1:24:29] their time um items

[1:24:34] and it's appreciated. >> Thank you.

[1:24:40] Thanks.

[1:24:48] » Yep. Okay. by the budget overview.

[1:24:54] » Then just um just generally um going through and and Mike suggested

[1:25:01] we had been we had looked at this for in previous years from 2018 to the current

[1:25:05] year and um I went back to 2017 because that's the point in time when um when

[1:25:12] the first cut to the levy for human services was made.

[1:25:17] Um general fund levy has been relatively stable from 2017 to 2026 because we've

[1:25:23] had increased interest earnings. Uh 2027 anticipated interest earnings are

[1:25:29] reduced by about 450,000. So instead of 1.1 million we're looking at six 6 and a

[1:25:33] half or 650,000. um 2027

[1:25:40] uh we have $730,000 [snorts] in capital projects for um paving at the courthouse

[1:25:47] and at the highway department which we didn't have before. Those two numbers

[1:25:52] are the difference between um the 26 general fund levy and the 27 proposed

[1:25:58] levy. Highway's been very consistent at 3%.

[1:26:03] [sighs] This is the curve relative to social services. The red line is the

[1:26:07] actual. Um the green line is 3% and the um yellow line is 7%.

[1:26:17] Um when we've already discussed that the public safety one we know um the red

[1:26:22] line is the actual the yellow line is 9% and the green line is 3% if it would

[1:26:27] would have been on that that range. The decrease in levy requests for public

[1:26:33] safety is not a decrease in their operating expense. It's because we had a

[1:26:38] spike last year because we were paying to outsource prisoners during the um

[1:26:42] during the construction and we're not budgeting for that for 2027. So, we're

[1:26:46] not seeing a decrease in their operating. we're just seeing a normal

[1:26:50] increase um less that

[1:26:56] the um

[1:27:01] the number that I showed you last time um was this 12.3% increase to 25.7

[1:27:10] million. What I am proposing that we can do is reduce that

[1:27:16] by $500,000 um for our meeting next week when we set

[1:27:22] a preliminary levy and get us down to 10% or even 9.9 whatever you want that

[1:27:28] number to be because I can take something from human services when we

[1:27:32] take a look at our fund balance as it is right now and how much we need to add to

[1:27:36] that so that 28 doesn't catch us so far off offg guard.

[1:27:42] um in the law enforcement center. I had payroll run um

[1:27:48] had a had them run a report for everything budgeted and then for

[1:27:52] everything um budgeted but has been vacant for a period of time and there's

[1:27:58] about $150,000 worth of payroll that we haven't spent because we have vacant

[1:28:02] positions we haven't been able to fill. So that would be my proposal there would

[1:28:06] be uh they have a tendency to fill that up with overtime

[1:28:11] but that's the conversation we need to have there is much of the overtime

[1:28:18] I guess half of the overtime is because of the nature of the business that

[1:28:21] they're doing. You can't stop what you're doing at the end of a shift

[1:28:24] because you're in the middle of something. Uh you can't not cover a

[1:28:27] shift in the jail or in the dispatch because we have to have the coverage

[1:28:30] 24/7. Um, but how you allocate that overtime

[1:28:34] and make sure that it's shared more equally than it has been, that's

[1:28:38] something that management can do. And then general fund, we could take

[1:28:42] $100,000 off of there um and just use a budget to use additional

[1:28:49] fund balance. We could um we could defer the paving

[1:28:56] project by a year. Um, but that doesn't really help us because in 28 it's going

[1:29:02] to cost more than it will in 27. And I think that we can see that that

[1:29:06] is. But what I'm proposing is barring any further direction from you is that

[1:29:12] I'm going to bring you a number that says 9.9 for a preliminary increase and

[1:29:16] then we still have two or three months to work with it. And this is how I would

[1:29:20] get there is with a combination of those numbers.

[1:29:29] And just a reminder, it doesn't make it better, but it does make it better. Um,

[1:29:34] we are scheduled to see a 20% increase in tax capacity this year because of

[1:29:40] throughput in our utility transmissions, which means if you

[1:29:45] didn't pull a permit this past year, um, even a 10% increase in levy from the

[1:29:50] county is end up is going to end up with a reduction in county taxes.

[1:29:57] long term doesn't make it better this year. Um I know we had a 7%

[1:30:05] increase for this year and many people saw actual decreases in their taxes

[1:30:09] because the tax capacity growth was more than that.

[1:30:11] » Uh cost for the personnel does that take into account how much insurance might go

[1:30:16] up? We are estimating 10% increase which is

[1:30:21] actually a 20% increase because we split it with the employees. Uh we are going

[1:30:26] to get an update today and the benefits committee is having a meeting later this

[1:30:30] week. Oh, she's not there. We will discuss that in the personnel committee

[1:30:34] meeting after this. What we know um the um six-month numbers for us were not

[1:30:42] good. um our usage is significantly above, you

[1:30:48] know, you want you want your usage to be at 100% of your premiums. [snorts]

[1:30:52] Actually, you want it to be about 93% of your premium so you can pay the

[1:30:55] administrative costs. Then we would see a decrease in our in our um proposed

[1:31:00] rates. That's not the case. So, I think that

[1:31:04] the 20% we're estimating is probably accurate, which is not good, but it

[1:31:09] seems to be consistent with what people are seeing, and we would see half of

[1:31:12] that. That's what's included in this these numbers. Now,

[1:31:17] we'll give personnel committee will get a little more insight um right after

[1:31:21] this meeting and I will have likely a number to include in here so that when

[1:31:28] um we do a preliminary we know what we're accounting for.

[1:31:36] So I was thinking a little more too about it across the board cut. But the

[1:31:41] problem with that is you know what we're facing next year and generally when you

[1:31:47] do that you you end up having to grow back pretty fast within two or three

[1:31:52] years. I don't know that

[1:31:56] I don't know if that'll benefit us when we're looking at probably a bigger

[1:31:59] problem in 28.

[1:32:03] you may compound your problem.

[1:32:08] » Yeah, there are more changes and and less actual certainty on what they're

[1:32:11] going to be in 2028.

[1:32:26] So, we'll have more information, more discussion,

[1:32:31] but that's what I'm going to bring you next week for consideration.

[1:32:37] And then I see Jonathan did make it from Wald,

[1:32:41] » so that's good. We're glad he's We're actually glad he's here because he had a

[1:32:44] little I don't know some sort of a traffic incident this morning and had to

[1:32:48] change cars before he could get here. [snorts]

[1:32:51] Anybody got any questions for J?

[1:32:55] » Just just that you know it'd be nice if I I just want to make sure that every

[1:33:00] department head is really going through everything with a fine tooth comb and

[1:33:05] really trying to seriously take it down to where it's it's only what's

[1:33:11] necessary. Um, I I don't want to

[1:33:16] say that we need to have a mandatory such a percentage off of everybody's

[1:33:21] budget, but I I do think there's there's some room in some of these. Um,

[1:33:27] but once again, we do need to keep our eye on 28 and realize what impacts may

[1:33:35] be there. You know, is it going to be a rubber band like you were saying that

[1:33:40] » we just end up trying to make up for it? playing catchup is a lot harder because

[1:33:44] it impacts harder. So, um I just want to [clears throat]

[1:33:49] just want to try to keep things to the bare bones if we can um just so it is a

[1:33:56] little easier to absorb in 28 hopefully without such a significant increase. Um

[1:34:02] because there there's probably things that are asked for that are not

[1:34:07] necessary. >> Yeah.

[1:34:10] And who knows, maybe we'll get pleasantly surprised and something will

[1:34:13] change for 28. But you know, just just the info we got from AMC District 2 on

[1:34:18] what the SNAP and Medicaid, it was like twice as large in 28 than it was in

[1:34:25] » 27. So, >> and they're um

[1:34:31] » and fraud,

[1:34:36] » and it's money we can't get back either. >> Mhm.

[1:34:40] Plus, they're not doing anything to prevent it yet.

[1:34:43] » Doesn't appear. I mean, they're finding new stuff yet.

[1:34:46] » So, yeah.

[1:34:50] They got any >> the only way to have government spend

[1:34:56] less money is to give them less money to spend.

[1:35:00] » Perfect.

[1:35:05] Mhm. >> It may not be a simple solution, but

[1:35:10] » yeah, >> it's the truth.

[1:35:12] » Yeah, we're at the bottom of the totem pole unfortunately and

[1:35:17] we're just pushing her down the line.

[1:35:23] And then that'd be great if they let us run our programs the way we [snorts]

[1:35:27] » needed to probably make it work. Maybe there'll be a change in the legislature

[1:35:32] this year. >> Yeah.

[1:35:38] » All right. Anything else? >> Well, let's hear the good news about the

[1:35:42] jail. >> Let's go to IC where we can spend some

[1:35:45] more money. >> You guys will have this wonderful

[1:35:47] solution for us and Mark, right? >> Costf free.

[1:35:53] » Only my friends. [laughter]

[1:36:04] Perfect. Well, thank you for having us. I'm Jason Splat with IC. I think most of

[1:36:08] you know me, and I'll let Jonathan introduce himself here.

[1:36:12] » Jonathan Loz with W Architects. Um, firm that's worked with ICS uh for a number

[1:36:17] of different years now. Um, we're out of Minneapolis. Uh, been doing probably

[1:36:22] county work pretty much my whole career. So, 20 plus years. worked with a lot of

[1:36:27] Minnesota counties and been through a lot of these studies. So, just kind of

[1:36:31] the breadth of experience we have kind of helps provide some knowledge base for

[1:36:36] um how we do what we do and I'm certainly open to any questions there

[1:36:40] might be on the information, but this is sort of a check in on the data that we

[1:36:44] found so far and then there's another iteration of providing some, you know,

[1:36:47] different options and things like that. So, we don't have a lot of pretty

[1:36:51] pictures for you today yet, but uh we've got information that I think will

[1:36:55] hopefully help you kind of come along with the process and understand where

[1:36:59] we're going from here. >> Yeah. And as Jonathan said, you know,

[1:37:03] we're going to first review process. We're going to look at the existing

[1:37:07] deferred maintenance needs of each of the spaces. That kind of sets it, you

[1:37:11] know, apart. This is what we need to invest in each of these spaces. Then

[1:37:16] Jonathan will walk us through some of the space needs both short and long term

[1:37:20] and then kind of wrap that up with the study next step. So Jeeoff if you want

[1:37:24] to go to process to date. So as you know IC did a deep dive into your facility

[1:37:30] back in 2122 um just to understand what are your

[1:37:36] needs kind of helped develop some of that capital improvement plan and we

[1:37:39] really looked at that and then rewalked the spaces to provide those updates. Our

[1:37:45] focus area was attorney courts, probation, the old jail area, um the

[1:37:51] basement of the LEC, and then also looking at the human services just

[1:37:56] because of the adjacencies of that space to courts and and

[1:38:01] everything kind of on this end of the building here. So um from the space

[1:38:07] programming side, Jonathan and his team came up, interviewed the department

[1:38:12] heads just to understand what their needs are, sent out a survey that kind

[1:38:16] of tied into that and then met with Jeff, met back with department heads

[1:38:22] just to validate the information that we had. So

[1:38:27] when we look at [clears throat] um the deferred maintenance, what we're

[1:38:32] showing you today is the 10-year needs. So you know, not just short-term, this

[1:38:38] is the full next 10 years and kind of use that as our baseline as we look to

[1:38:44] the future on some of the decisions and some of the areas that need some

[1:38:48] attention. So start with the government center here. Um notable issues there

[1:38:54] mainly is the mechanical systems. Those were all updated um a while back, but

[1:39:01] they're coming due. The other major piece of that is the roofing is going to

[1:39:07] be approaching 20 years old at 2033. So something that we want to start planning

[1:39:13] for holistically. Um, when we look at just that image there, as you folks

[1:39:18] know, the brown areas were all renovated as part of the project that is kind of

[1:39:23] wrapping up now and then the rest of that blue area was kind of that 2013

[1:39:27] project. So, um, just have a handful of pictures on the next slides that just

[1:39:36] kind of identify some of those areas. Um obviously county attorney, county

[1:39:42] auditor, there is no deferred maintenance in those areas just due to

[1:39:46] the last round of projects being done. As we look at the next slide being the

[1:39:53] probation area, um HVAC systems are beyond their useful lives. You have your

[1:39:58] ACT or acoustical tile ceilings and a lot of the finishes in that space that

[1:40:03] are in need of updates. Um only the one employee bathroom. So, no duplication

[1:40:10] for your analysis, any of those things. And then the ADA accessibility

[1:40:16] component, a lot of the round door knobs that don't meet that ADA within there.

[1:40:22] So, Jeff, if you go to the next slide, we can see some of the photos that just

[1:40:27] kind of accompany that space and some of the areas that they're using today.

[1:40:33] So, [snorts] >> and what's the issue with the wood door?

[1:40:36] [clears throat] >> What's that? What's an issue with a wood

[1:40:38] door? >> Uh, it's not so much the wood door, it's

[1:40:41] the door knobs. >> Okay.

[1:40:43] » Yep. >> So, replacing a door knob would be less

[1:40:45] than replacing a door. >> Correct.

[1:40:47] » Yep. >> Thank you.

[1:40:50] » Um, [clears throat] moving down to old jail area. So, that connection point

[1:40:58] from our courts over to the um LEC original HVAC systems. Again, we have

[1:41:05] the ceilings and a lot of those finishes that are um existing jail cells that are

[1:41:11] now used for storage. Um VCT flooring in poor condition. You got some paint

[1:41:16] peeling and just kind of an area that's almost been mothballled at this point

[1:41:21] and just used as storage. Um and more or less a pathway from the LEC over to the

[1:41:28] courts. So >> really been no deferred maintenance done

[1:41:33] in 20 years. because it's been it has you know the

[1:41:37] old jail has not been used. It's used as transport and uh the probation space is

[1:41:43] in the old administrative offices for the old jail.

[1:41:46] » Correct. So you can just see some of the photos of that space and and how it's

[1:41:51] being used now. That bottom bottom middle photo is just storage for jail

[1:41:56] probation for other areas. So uh going down as we look at the judicial

[1:42:02] area again kind of similar concept HBAC systems are nearing their life. You have

[1:42:10] some of the finishes. Um one of the bigger components there is courtrooms

[1:42:16] lack ADA and then the jury room restrooms that are right off that small

[1:42:22] meeting room don't meet ADA accessibility within that area.

[1:42:30] So you can just see some of the photos of that space.

[1:42:35] So when we look at the overall budgets for that those areas again these are

[1:42:42] 10-year budget forecasts for what is the deferred maintenance needs of each of

[1:42:48] those areas. So when we look at the government center that 2.1 million again

[1:42:54] the majority of that is HVAC roofs. We have the probation area at about

[1:42:59] 428,000. We have the old jail at about that 1.3

[1:43:04] and then the judicial area at about 1.1 million. So about 5 million in total

[1:43:12] deferred maintenance needs in those areas for the next 10 years. But that

[1:43:18] doesn't include any updates. >> That doesn't include any changing of the

[1:43:23] spaces. That's just replacing what is there like for like. So

[1:43:28] » So the the government center dollars are identified in the deferred maintenance

[1:43:32] plan that we're working with now and the other stuff is not really

[1:43:36] [clears throat] because we haven't looked at that.

[1:43:38] » Yeah. So, knowing that we have an aging roof and that we have mechanical systems

[1:43:42] that need to be updated, we did update two major boilers and um but we've got

[1:43:49] some other things that'll be coming up. So, this number is included in the

[1:43:53] capital plan that we have to this point on a on a 10-year horizon. The other

[1:43:57] things are not. >> So, what's that old jail that then that

[1:44:01] one 1.3 million doesn't have anything to do with any potential changes to that

[1:44:06] space? >> Nope. that's just fixing what is there

[1:44:09] now. So, we thought this step was an important gives you that baseline for

[1:44:13] what are our deferred maintenance needs. Jonathan's next going to talk about what

[1:44:18] are our programming needs and then we'll come back to you folks with solutions

[1:44:24] both in the short term and the long term to address not only the deferred

[1:44:29] maintenance but the space needs that Jonathan's going to walk through here

[1:44:33] now. >> Oh, go ahead. Well, just so I

[1:44:36] understand, Jeeoff, can you go back to the slide, previous slide right there?

[1:44:40] Just so I understand better, we're not using the old jail. Could we,

[1:44:46] if we only looked at this, could you fix like probation without doing something

[1:44:51] to old jail or is everything intertwined?

[1:44:54] » We could potentially >> Perfect question. Uh, I was going to

[1:44:57] give you the caveat that although it looks like the old jail number could

[1:45:01] just be scrubbed out. I mean, we have to look at every option. And so, if it's a

[1:45:07] possibility to continue to use that square footage and repurpose it for

[1:45:11] something else, that's on the table. So, as far as we're concerned, we're looking

[1:45:16] at, you know, complete reuse and no additional square footage all the way up

[1:45:21] to take it all down and start over. That's a whole spectrum of options that

[1:45:25] we're going to be looking at. And certainly, we hope that somewhere in

[1:45:28] between there, you'll find what works for, you know, Hubard County. But I

[1:45:32] mean, that's why we're not saying take this off yet. I think we need to kind of

[1:45:37] fold it all together and determine what the best approach is from a budget and

[1:45:41] just planning standpoint.

[1:45:45] Meaning, you can't provide better mechanical systems and probation without

[1:45:50] dealing with them throughout the old jail.

[1:45:51] » Yeah, that's what I thought. >> The roof the roofs are tied together.

[1:45:54] » Yeah. um we can't come up with the actual the

[1:45:57] additional program space and office space that probation needs primarily

[1:46:01] because moving walls in an old jail is not like moving walls in a in a office

[1:46:07] building, right? >> Um there's structural or the

[1:46:10] construction is such that they're really a challenge. So, um I think we're going

[1:46:15] to do some mental calisthenics when we get to the end of this once Jonathan

[1:46:18] goes through the the um the program summaries.

[1:46:24] So, as uh Jason said before, we met with um basically each of the department

[1:46:30] heads twice and checked in with Jeff on that, too. Part of what we have is a

[1:46:36] survey that basically asks a bunch of questions about every individual

[1:46:39] department. Talks about what their current, you know, operating model is,

[1:46:44] what they foresee as potential future needs in terms of program changes. I

[1:46:50] mean, you just talked about the, you know, social services, the Medicaid

[1:46:53] stuff. Those are all things that people see coming on the horizon that

[1:46:56] potentially have a staff impact and also then a square footage impact to how much

[1:47:01] space you might need to take up. Um, in addition to that, we're also looking at,

[1:47:06] you know, what are your current deficiencies? If you're already in an

[1:47:09] office space that only holds 10 people, but you got 15, that's something we need

[1:47:14] to recognize, probably needs to be addressed sooner than later. Um, the way

[1:47:18] that we organized this is we actually looked at kind of a fiveyear horizon and

[1:47:22] then we'll say like a 15 to 20 year horizon. Now that means that Jason's

[1:47:27] 10year budget for the deferred maintenance stuff is somewhere in

[1:47:31] between there. And I think that's just a matter of us kind of deciding whatever

[1:47:36] the right solution is. We just need to find the right year to plop that in so

[1:47:39] that we can budget that accordingly in terms of, you know, escalation and all

[1:47:43] those other things. Um, but the reality is the five-year need is just a

[1:47:48] short-term like let's try not to do too much just to accommodate these

[1:47:52] departments for now knowing that it's not likely that there's going to be a

[1:47:56] big investment until further down the road. So that's when we looked at that

[1:47:59] 15 to 20 year mark and said okay if you're thinking about your future what

[1:48:04] does that really look like and what more you know probably bigger changes might

[1:48:08] need to be made to accommodate those. So that's what those kind of three

[1:48:12] different categories are. Existing is just what it is, how much space you're

[1:48:16] taking up now. 5 years is what you think would look like then. And then 15 to 20

[1:48:21] is if we really like planned for as far out as we could foreseeably understand

[1:48:26] your department's going to look like. That's how much square footage we're

[1:48:29] looking at. So, just to go through some bullet points on the um different

[1:48:33] departments, the county attorney um obviously another legal assistant, an

[1:48:37] assistant attorney, they kind of um look at that as needing an additional one

[1:48:42] every 5 years. And so, if you start to add that up, that's just, you know, an

[1:48:46] office and then a workstation once every five years. So, taking that into a much

[1:48:52] more detailed program that we have, um, we're looking at every single individual

[1:48:57] space and assigning a square footage to that. Um, and those square footages

[1:49:01] aren't based on what the departments had told us. Those square footages are based

[1:49:06] on what, you know, other similar counties are using and just sort of

[1:49:11] traditional um, office space design uh, would utilize. So, if we're saying just

[1:49:17] a standard office, you know, we're looking at about that 150 square f foot

[1:49:22] number, um we're not just taking whatever number they've got now and

[1:49:25] saying, "Okay, well, you got 300 square feet. We'll just kind of translate that

[1:49:29] forward." So, we're trying to use some just um industry standards for those

[1:49:34] individual spaces. So, um that's all of these different numbers kind of take

[1:49:38] that into account as we look forward here. Uh the other one that um the

[1:49:43] county attorney is looking at is an actual like conference room for their

[1:49:46] whole um department as well as bringing in some outside parties as well. There's

[1:49:51] just not a great room for them to do that right now in a private way. Um

[1:49:55] especially if you have a victim or witness that you're um holding and you

[1:49:59] might have to have some individual meetings or have them kind of outside of

[1:50:02] the public way until um courts in session. So um those are the two big

[1:50:07] ones. Uh reality is five-year needs, there really isn't anything um they're

[1:50:12] going to make do for now. Um but in 15 to 20 years, you're looking at about

[1:50:16] a,400 square foot increase for those different positions that they're going

[1:50:19] to be looking to add.

[1:50:23] Um going on to court administration and courts. Um so for this one, um we're

[1:50:29] looking at actually three or four different groups. So, we're looking at

[1:50:33] court administration, just sort of general court areas that would support

[1:50:38] um the courtrooms. So, that would be uh you know, other offices, the judges

[1:50:44] chambers, um conference rooms that support the courtrooms. Um and then we

[1:50:48] look at just the courts themselves um purely. Uh, and then the fourth one

[1:50:54] is court security, which oftentimes we kind of assign that to the sheriff's

[1:50:59] office, but for the purposes of today because it's within this footprint,

[1:51:03] we're looking at the court security piece of this as well. Um, so the

[1:51:07] numbers at the bottom of this one are actually inaccurate because they only

[1:51:11] take into account just like the court administration piece. Um, so I'm going

[1:51:15] to give you the numbers and then we can update this slide for um, future

[1:51:18] purposes. But um just the bullet points on it providing some separate offices

[1:51:23] for court administrator and court supervisor. Um they're combined right

[1:51:27] now having um again I think Jason touched on this before because there's

[1:51:31] kind of an overlap between uh deferred maintenance and program needs when you

[1:51:36] have accessibility issues. Um so that's something that certainly is a program

[1:51:40] issue as well and a square footage issue. Once you start adding ramps to a

[1:51:44] courtroom and um the necessary turning radius for wheelchairs and things like

[1:51:48] that, the courtroom just inherently is going to get bigger. Um and then we've

[1:51:53] got just public counter kiosk queuing, security glazing is improvement to that

[1:51:57] whole public area. Um and then more visual privacy between the judges

[1:52:02] chambers and the sidewalk by probation entry. So just sort of some security

[1:52:06] issues that um could potentially have a space impact as well. Um, again, not

[1:52:11] every single one of these means that there's more square footage. Um, it's

[1:52:14] just a deficiency in how it's organized right now that if we do some sort of

[1:52:19] rethinking of how we organize their space, uh, we'll try to take this into

[1:52:23] account and it may or may not have a square footage impact overall. Um, if we

[1:52:28] look at the the big numbers, I'll say from all of courts, so all four of those

[1:52:32] groups that I talked about, um, right now you're at about 7,500 square ft. um

[1:52:38] the five-year need doesn't change at all. There's maybe like one additional

[1:52:41] office, so it's only about a 40 square foot change. Um but then in the 15 to 20

[1:52:47] year need, if we're looking at actually providing a courtroom that provides for

[1:52:52] the full jury box, um all the accessibility needs with the ramping and

[1:52:57] the turning radius and everything that's there, as well as supporting a smaller

[1:53:01] courtroom that's actually a little bit more user friendly for, um family court

[1:53:05] and other things like that. Um then we're going from the 7500 that I said up

[1:53:10] to about 17,000 and that accommodates um additional space for court security um

[1:53:17] expanded courtroom which is the biggest component of that. Um and then some

[1:53:22] additional offices for court administration and some different um

[1:53:25] additional conference rooms for um just to support that whole courts area,

[1:53:30] especially when you have attorneys or um defendants coming out and having some

[1:53:35] breakout meetings during se um while court's in session. Um right now you're

[1:53:40] a little bit short on having those meeting rooms to accommodate those sort

[1:53:43] of private meetings and that can create some just privacy and security

[1:53:47] conflicts. Is the court meeting only in person now or are they doing hybrid?

[1:53:52] » They're do I would say hybrid is the model that they're taking right now. So

[1:53:55] there's definitely still a lot of remote hearings and things like that. Um but

[1:53:59] when you do have to have um an in person which can be requested by either party

[1:54:05] um or if it's a full jury trial um then you would have to use that full

[1:54:10] courtroom and um just to support that you know in the future that's where

[1:54:15] having that accessibility and some of those other sighteline and security

[1:54:18] things I think updated would be beneficial.

[1:54:23] So that's where those numbers set. Uh moving forward to

[1:54:29] um county attorneys >> going the opposite way.

[1:54:33] » Oh yeah, I got to go backwards now. Sorry.

[1:54:39] Uh so then to probation um you know right now looking at the

[1:54:45] their need is a minimum of about seven private offices. Um and so that's a more

[1:54:50] immediate need for them right now. um which means they're probably one of the

[1:54:55] departments here that actually does jump up in that fiveyear mark. Um but that

[1:54:59] doesn't change much out to the long term. Um just because their needs are

[1:55:04] already more immediate with the number of staff and the clients that they have.

[1:55:08] Um so providing a minimum of seven private offices. Um having a conference

[1:55:12] room for a larger group of 12 to 14 people. Um the need for an additional

[1:55:18] smaller interview room. Um, and that has to have some of that visibility and

[1:55:23] safety um, embedded into it. Uh, and then right now the um, UA testing that

[1:55:29] they do is actually in the staff bathroom as well. Um, which, you know,

[1:55:35] in general is just not a great idea. Um, and not real kosher, I would say, but it

[1:55:40] also just, um, creates some security issues and things like that, too. if you

[1:55:44] have staff that have to go somewhere else to use the bathroom while you have

[1:55:47] a client in there and you're doing UA testing, um it just creates conflict.

[1:55:51] So, traditionally, most counties would have a separated um public and um UA

[1:55:57] toilet or staff and UA toilet to be able to do that in a more secure manner. Um

[1:56:01] and there's just um again, we we wrote down plumbing and hot water issues

[1:56:06] within the current space. Obviously, those are things that Jason picked up in

[1:56:09] his deferred maintenance stuff, but as we go through these interviews,

[1:56:13] occasionally they'll bring up other things and we just document it just to

[1:56:16] make sure that it's been written down. So, again, the the jump between now and

[1:56:20] that 5-year need goes from around 1,900 up to about 3,000. Um, again, most of

[1:56:26] that is just the conference room and the additional staff offices. Uh, and then

[1:56:30] there's really not much change between there and that 15 to 20 year need.

[1:56:39] So, moving on to the sheriff's office. Again, we we only really scratched the

[1:56:44] surface of this knowing that uh much of their space has already been sort of

[1:56:48] updated and we only really looked at the basement and kind of where the EOC and

[1:56:55] um emergency management and some of their training rooms are to try to

[1:56:58] respect the fact that that's something that just wasn't addressed in the last

[1:57:02] project. Um so the reality is their needs right now are to have a separate

[1:57:06] emergency management um defensive tactics and classroom training

[1:57:10] functions. Um having sort of a dualpurpose space that creates a

[1:57:15] training classroom. Um but also provides for an area where you can roll out some

[1:57:20] mats and do some of that DT training is a pretty um I would say widely used

[1:57:25] model right now throughout Minnesota. Just be able to not have to double up

[1:57:29] square footage. you're creating a whole separate like let's say wrestling room

[1:57:32] and meeting room and this way you can kind of do both if you've got those mats

[1:57:36] that can kind of roll up. So I think that was a good idea that we talked

[1:57:40] about with them to do that combined and doesn't really have any square footage

[1:57:44] effect u but then also creating some existing space um for uh the needs for

[1:57:49] cubicles and and an emergency management office that was separated from that

[1:57:54] area. So really, they can do most of that within the space that there that is

[1:57:58] there now, which is why the square footage doesn't change. Um, it would

[1:58:01] just require some additional remodeling and adding some walls and things like

[1:58:05] that. So, it could be done pretty modestly. Again, if something were to

[1:58:10] change with that overall square footage in the future, this would need to be

[1:58:14] replaced with something else.

[1:58:20] And then lastly, um, as we said, I don't know that there was a, um, huge push to

[1:58:26] change anything with human services, but at the same time, um, we kind of

[1:58:30] advocated to look at it only because they're connected to all these other

[1:58:34] spaces. And if we were going to talk to all those other departments, only made

[1:58:38] sense to have them be a part of this. and we knew if there was going to be

[1:58:41] some accommodation in 15 to 20 years, we don't want to ignore that and not have

[1:58:46] that be a part of this process. Um the reality is if you start to look at the

[1:58:51] growth that they've seen um historically and potentially project out what some of

[1:58:57] those programs might be added in the future, there's definitely some square

[1:59:00] footage added and most of that is going to be staff space. Now, I think um the

[1:59:06] five of you, probably even more so than me, see all the changes that happen

[1:59:09] within social services depending on what federal or state programs come in and

[1:59:13] out all the time. Um but it's hard to really predict that you're going to

[1:59:18] shrink. Um it's easy to try to plan for that. You probably might need some

[1:59:23] additional square footage in the future. Um that just seems to be the history.

[1:59:27] And so we kind of um talked through the different programs that could

[1:59:32] potentially be changing for the ones that they can see right now on the

[1:59:34] horizon. Um but then certainly they've got some predictions about okay in 10

[1:59:40] years we've added five people so let's at least plan for four or five people in

[1:59:44] the next 10 years. So some of this is knowing what's happening in the future

[1:59:49] and some of this is making an educated guess knowing what could potentially

[1:59:53] happen to this department. I would say that's true for all of these groups. Um,

[1:59:57] and that's why at this 5-year mark when you hit that, uh, it would make sense to

[2:00:02] go back to this planning exercise and say, okay, are we still at the same mark

[2:00:07] that we thought we were or do we have to sort of readjust the plan? Now, it might

[2:00:11] mean that you probably have a good idea of what you wanted to do within that 15

[2:00:16] to 20 years. um but it could be modified potentially with more real time data

[2:00:21] based on that fiveyear those five-year numbers. So it isn't to say that it

[2:00:26] wouldn't change or wouldn't change. It's just a good idea always I would say to

[2:00:30] look back at that and make sure that you're not off the mark. Um for human

[2:00:35] services again private office for income maintenance supervisor

[2:00:39] three to four shared spaces for hoteling work points again they're continuing to

[2:00:44] look at doing remote working and so we weren't going to change that and just

[2:00:48] add a bunch of offices continuing using that model but knowing that they do

[2:00:52] still needed landing pad sometimes uh and then monitoring equipment to

[2:00:57] visitation rooms in the LACE basement um and allow limited growth capacity for

[2:01:02] child production and adult service. So, there's just some modest growth in all

[2:01:07] these different departments. But again, when you're looking at staff space and

[2:01:10] meeting rooms, it does jump from 13,700 up to about 17,000 square ft. So, the

[2:01:18] staff numbers are really more so what impacts that than anything else along

[2:01:22] with, like I said, some additional conference rooms and things like that.

[2:01:25] » I would probably additionally highlight the next four points. Um

[2:01:32] the uh improve staff entry and separation from public circulation and

[2:01:36] resolve lobby privacy and restroom conflicts. That's just

[2:01:40] poor design, you know, and and I think everybody knows that that was designed

[2:01:45] to be one thing and then it was made into another thing and just kind of made

[2:01:48] to work. Um and those are things that really wouldn't be done unless it was

[2:01:54] part of a larger project. Um, but the one thing on here that that Michael and

[2:02:01] I have talked about is possibly going through and doing a a facelift on the

[2:02:05] break room, which would actually have pretty significant impact on morale over

[2:02:08] there. So, um, I might be putting that on the 28 plan,

[2:02:14] but these these are all

[2:02:18] this this space hasn't been designed. It's just evolved over time. And um and

[2:02:25] there's there's ways where it could be done it could be done better, but we

[2:02:29] have the stairways and the elevator all dump into the same place and the

[2:02:34] employees and the and the um um clients are all in the same pl in the same

[2:02:40] spaces and it's just not very well controlled. So it is something worth

[2:02:45] considering. Um he's just the messenger when he's

[2:02:49] saying that we're projecting for additional staff over the five and 10

[2:02:52] year period. He's just doing math. He's not making a programmatic decision. So,

[2:02:57] » thanks. >> Don't [laughter] don't hold that against

[2:03:00] him.

[2:03:04] » So, as we look at, you know, really what are the the next steps in this is, you

[2:03:08] know, how can we meet, as Jonathan said, the five-year the short-term needs, you

[2:03:14] know, Mark probation's a a good example of that. Is there something that we can

[2:03:18] do there for renovations in the short term that are going to meet the needs

[2:03:21] and and not cost a ton? Um, and then what are that what is that right 15 to

[2:03:29] 20 year plan? Can we renovate the existing spaces that are there and fit

[2:03:36] everybody? Do we need some additions or does it look like we demo and

[2:03:42] reconstruct kind of that connection point between

[2:03:47] the current government center over to the LEC? So, those are all options that

[2:03:55] we're going to be exploring and bringing back to you folks just for reference and

[2:04:00] for knowledge. So you'll have each kind of one of those stepping points as you

[2:04:06] look to the future. Again, you're not making any decisions on that. Just going

[2:04:10] through what is the right long-term plan for these areas of our facility that are

[2:04:16] behind me here. So, >> so we've talked about this for a number

[2:04:22] of years and if we could spend $250,000 and make probation the space that it

[2:04:27] needs to accommodate that, we would do that because

[2:04:33] their collocation between the courts and the law enforcement center and and

[2:04:37] accessibility and convenience for everybody makes all kinds of sense. When

[2:04:41] we were looking through this, we were really having a hard time. And you'll

[2:04:45] see this when we program it out trying to carve out another 1,200 square feet

[2:04:50] out of the existing building um either from jail pods or from the old Sallyport

[2:04:57] or from some of the other spaces um gets to be more expensive than than just

[2:05:03] moving walls was on the second floor when we did this. Um, and then thinking

[2:05:09] about long-term needs of court administration. Well, we counties

[2:05:14] another one of those unfunded mandates. We have to provide adequate space for

[2:05:18] them. But at what point do we continue to

[2:05:23] um dress up the old the old building and what at what point do we have to plan

[2:05:27] for the long-term um long-term goal? We have a number on our capital plan pol

[2:05:35] capital plan projects list. It's just outside of the 10-year horizon, right?

[2:05:38] We we've identified that $18 million project and just put it out there just

[2:05:43] looming just off the edge of the page. And um

[2:05:48] and and and we know that that's potentially the case. What I will say is

[2:05:53] is short of the board wanting to add a million and a half dollars to debt

[2:05:56] service to what we currently have, we have to wait till 2034,

[2:06:02] 2035 before we could consider something like that because that's about the point

[2:06:06] in time we could refinance the debt we just took on and fold in some

[2:06:12] additional. So, this is a really good time to be doing a 10-year plan because

[2:06:16] we're or a 20-year plan with this kind of forgotten space in the middle because

[2:06:21] financially we're not in a position to do anything other than this background

[2:06:24] work and kind of identify priorities and figure out how it fits into a long range

[2:06:30] financial plan. there are going to be, if nothing else,

[2:06:35] um, you know, millions of dollars worth of infrastructure needs on those old

[2:06:40] buildings just to make them continue to work beyond the next 5 to 10 years. And

[2:06:44] that's one of the points that argues in favor of potentially doing a remodel or

[2:06:49] even a a replacement of some of those spaces.

[2:06:54] And somebody asked me the case, well, what do you do with courts? How do you

[2:06:57] displace them? And and I I just get this idea the way that ICS did the last

[2:07:02] project for us that we could treat the old jail and the court space as separate

[2:07:07] spaces. Um demolish one, build one, relocate,

[2:07:12] demolish the other one, build that other one, and then, you know, complete it. It

[2:07:16] wouldn't be a 24 to 30month project. It'd be a 36 to 40month project to do it

[2:07:22] that way. Um, but that's how we would accommodate that without anybody

[2:07:26] actually being displaced. Um, just from a guess

[2:07:32] and you saw in the old in the pictures you can see that we definitely have two

[2:07:35] different buildings there that were built at different times. So that's what

[2:07:39] the we're interested in your comments, your questions, uh, thoughts about what

[2:07:44] you want to see next. Um, and our the charge that I've given them is what

[2:07:51] could we do within our existing annual capital project dollars that would make

[2:07:56] it better? And we're going to come up with a short list. What could we do to

[2:08:01] actually make the space more usable than it is now, which is that middle piece,

[2:08:05] which is going to be we're going to find out it's going to be more expensive, I

[2:08:08] think, than than the good it will produce.

[2:08:12] Um, but that's that's the goal is to bring back those things in more detail

[2:08:16] than than the general comments we've made. So, if you have questions about

[2:08:21] the process to this point, Mark's got any comments.

[2:08:28] » Yeah. Uh, one question. It appears from from a potential design that there will

[2:08:34] be two conference bait conference rooms pretty close to each other. one

[2:08:39] probation, one attorney. I mean, can can things be streamlined a little

[2:08:45] bit so the lights will be on in one room a little bit longer?

[2:08:50] » Maybe. [laughter]

[2:08:53] I haven't designed anything yet. So, >> it's like using a piece of equipment

[2:08:57] that when so uh solid waste was here, you know, that that that skiitter being

[2:09:02] used for more than one item. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean on once we start kind

[2:09:07] of putting the puzzle pieces back together again here, you know, we strip

[2:09:12] it all apart and we see what the overall is and then when we start trying to

[2:09:15] build it back up again, if we find that there's those overlaps, then we need to

[2:09:19] go back to those departments and say, can you share this space? And the answer

[2:09:23] is either yes or no. And if the answer is no, there's usually compelling reason

[2:09:26] as to why they can't. A lot of it comes down to security and safety. Uh but

[2:09:31] certainly those are things that we would vet through Jeff and potentially, you

[2:09:35] know, other committee efforts uh to get to the right number. But yeah, we

[2:09:40] wouldn't ignore those kind of overlap pieces.

[2:09:44] » We want to make sure it's efficient as well and getting used as much of the day

[2:09:48] as it can be. You know, >> empty spaces is not good use of money.

[2:09:54] » So, >> so we've got all those functions now,

[2:09:56] but the attorney's over here and probation's over there and courts over

[2:10:00] here. there's no adjacency to them. If you put those adjacent spaces in the

[2:10:04] middle, they could be much more easily shared. Um, but at the same point in

[2:10:09] time, when the attorneys are saying, "We need a space that is kind of like our

[2:10:13] space for our this size," um, that's, you know,

[2:10:21] that's something that's hard to share. But when they talk about needing

[2:10:24] interview rooms for and private rooms for families and consultation, those are

[2:10:28] things that can be shared with courts on a calendar. You know, right now we have

[2:10:32] three small we had two two small rooms downstairs and we divided into three.

[2:10:36] Well, that gives us more capacity because typically you don't have more

[2:10:39] than three or four people in a room like that. And if we had five or six of those

[2:10:44] rooms instead of three and they were serving multiple functions, they would

[2:10:49] probably be sufficient. um putting these all together. And yes, some of these

[2:10:54] will blend into each other if we have an opportunity to program something where

[2:10:59] the shared space is in the middle of all the users.

[2:11:08] » Any other questions?

[2:11:12] » Thank you guys. What's our next step in timeline? Do we know? Do we remember? uh

[2:11:16] plan on coming back October with some additional options.

[2:11:21] » Okay. >> So, probably see us again in October.

[2:11:24] That probably won't be the final, but just another update for you folks as we

[2:11:29] go through the process.

[2:11:33] » Sounds good. >> Thank you all. Thank you. Appreciate it.

[2:11:39] » Thanks for shifting the agenda for me, too.

[2:11:42] » No problem. It timing worked out just fine.

[2:11:45] » Yeah. >> Anything else, Jeff?

[2:11:49] » Nothing. >> All right. Motion to adjurnn.

[2:11:53] » I move. >> This is t second.

[2:11:56] » All in favor? >> I opposed or journ.

[2:12:04] » So, do we have general government? >> We are having a personnel committee

[2:12:08] meeting.

Board of Commissioners Work Session - 08 Sep 2026

Transcript