[0:00] Good.

[0:03] It is now 1039. My name is Daniel Abarca. I am chair of the Public Works Committee. We have with us, legislator Smith,

[0:12] legislator Husky and vice chair Peyton. We will begin this morning with a public hearing to talk about term and supply contracts, a Jackson County.

[0:22] on I will welcome up anyone who would like to testify on or for or against term supply

[0:31] contracts, share any insight about term supply contracts.

[0:35] We ask you to state your name and the city you live in or any representative that organization

[0:41] that you have.

[0:43] So without further ado, if you'll join us, whoever wants to be first in this first chair, make

[0:47] sure the green lights on and then you can share your testimony.

[0:57] Good morning.

[0:59] My name is Matthew Harris.

[1:00] I'm the business manager.

[1:01] I'm not sure you're lights on there.

[1:02] Just it.

[1:03] Okay.

[1:03] Perfect.

[1:03] Thank you.

[1:04] Business manager for plumbers and gas fitters locally in Kansas City.

[1:11] So it was brought to my attention last week.

[1:14] We had one of our members call that there were some water lines being done by Parks and

[1:22] Rack.

[1:23] They didn't know it was Parks and Rack at the time.

[1:25] So one of my business agents went out to check the job and when they arrived on

[1:29] They found two gentlemen working in a ditch that was extremely unsafe.

[1:34] I've got the pictures of anybody who would like to see the picture of it.

[1:38] The young man is in over his head.

[1:40] The spoiled pile is entirely too close to the ditch.

[1:44] It's wet soil, which makes it even more dangerous.

[1:48] This seems to be a pervasive problem with Parks plus Rec,

[1:51] and having their texts do what they call basic plumbing work.

[1:56] Last year, we also had another issue out

[1:58] I think it was a juicomo. I think it was the old chair of the building where parks plus

[2:02] red had installed a water heater, a gas-fired water heater. They could not get the natural gas to stop leaking

[2:09] inside of occupied building so they eventually ripped it out and installed electric water heater.

[2:17] Not only did the county have to pay twice for a water heater, but there was also a time

[2:22] that was extremely dangerous to be inside the building. This has been a problem we've had with

[2:27] plus wreck for a long time, we've had negotiations where we've tried to get plumbers to come

[2:33] down there and do the work, and they seemed to always send these texts. These two young men

[2:39] that were in this ditch, I would like to know if they have their OSHA 30. I'd like to know if

[2:44] they've had any type of training and excavations, shoring, trenching, anything, because obviously

[2:50] if they have, they weren't following it. My guess is they probably have not had the training.

[2:56] And at any point in time this could end up being a news report of a body recovery instead of us just going out and finding something wrong.

[3:07] So, that's all I've got.

[3:10] Questions comments?

[3:12] I was going to ask to see the pictures and then just say, so, like, I've done your occasional lines of my house and I'm about that deep.

[3:19] I'm assuming we're not talking about, no sir.

[3:22] Something that's just on the surface.

[3:23] Can I approach? Absolutely. And we're putting the pictures now. So, sorry about the delay. It was

[3:28] a computer issue.

[3:34] So, that's some kind of mainway or something. Yeah, just from the diameter.

[3:53] Other examples, just a memory that kind of. The only other one that strikes me as being extremely

[3:59] dangerous would be the water here thing. I mean, you know, there's been a lot of natural gas

[4:04] explosions over the last five to ten years. And, you know, it's just lucky that enough people

[4:09] complaining about the natural gas smell that those are the only two instances that

[4:15] really stick out in my mind, but those are extremely serious safety issues.

[4:20] Any other questions comments?

[4:23] Nice to meet you.

[4:24] Thank you so much for being here.

[4:29] So I'm just trying to get perspective here.

[4:34] I understand, and from the pictures, it looks like it was an unsafe situation.

[4:42] But where do you draw the line between what parks plus rent can do with employees?

[4:51] And when they need to call in professionals?

[4:55] How do they determine that?

[4:58] Well, I think any time that you...

[5:00] We're dealing with plumbing issues and needs to be a licensed plumbing answer. You know, we go through five years of training in order to be able to achieve our journey of plumber's license for Kansas City Missouri.

[5:12] Not only is natural gas dangerous, but just the water in the building could be dangerous and the inhabitants if it's not done properly.

[5:19] Any sewage backup, that's a potential safety hazard for any inhabitants in the building.

[5:25] You know, if the water line's not installed properly, then next thing, you know, there's bacteria in the lines if it's not flushed.

[5:32] I believe any time that they're dealing with plumbing issues, that they need to have a license plumber on site.

[5:38] We carry a license for a reason.

[5:42] And we have a term agreement with the plummet union, or we have, we have a contract,

[5:52] a part-class reg, do they have a contract where they could unfound, no, they don't.

[5:56] We do not, but we do have a contract with the county.

[5:59] Okay, thank you.

[6:01] Other questions, comments, Mr. Harris, for these pictures, how did you come to find these

[6:07] individuals or what's the process it took to even know they were there.

[6:11] So typically when we when there's a job going on we have members all over the city traveling

[6:16] at different times and if if they don't recognize a name on the side of a van or on a side

[6:21] of a pickup truck they'll call us hey we see this works being done go out and check it out

[6:26] so we received a call from a member that is he noticed this work was being done called one

[6:31] of our agents their agents followed up with it and that's when we realized it was part

[6:36] works plus direct tech, so they're performing the work.

[6:40] And so it sounds like you had some folks from your local

[6:43] go and have a conversation with them.

[6:46] Do you know if they had a license at all for plumbing,

[6:49] do you know if they were certified in any particular way,

[6:53] any type of experience that they may have had to do this work?

[6:57] They couldn't produce any documentation that showed

[7:01] that they were skilled to do the type of work that they were doing.

[7:05] Oh shit 10, no shit, nothing, okay, and any idea what the contractor was, who was, they were performing this work under, or is it one of the our employees that was doing it was, it was parts plus rectics. These are, okay, these were county employees,

[7:26] okay.

[7:27] Other questions and comments before we allow this individual to return.

[7:33] All right, thank you Mr. Harris.

[7:35] Anybody else want to testify or talk about charm and supply contracts?

[7:41] It's a little different than what I initially imagined there.

[7:57] Kevin Gard, business manager for plaster and cement, Mason's local 518.

[8:03] As far as charm and supply contracts, we had one issue recently, not a safety issue, but we have a...

[8:15] And I know you guys use point systems, but we also have, and I'm going to speak for a lot of the locals around here.

[8:23] We have minority and women owned businesses that are registered into our apprenticeship program that go through all the training.

[8:31] So we have several contractors that could pull, or they could be on these termites ply contracts.

[8:36] So we'd like to see them use more.

[8:39] Mine would be geared directly towards that concrete side

[8:43] for curb and gutter.

[8:45] But we'd like to see them use more out

[8:47] in the Jackson County area.

[8:50] Mr. Guard, how long is your apprenticeship program?

[8:53] Or what does it take to get in there?

[8:54] What does it even mean?

[8:55] I guess to have some folks that there

[8:58] is an apprenticeship program.

[9:00] Our apprenticeship program is three years long

[9:02] and you can sign up when you're 17 years old

[9:05] and then you'll have to have so many work hours

[9:08] and also so many hours of schooling.

[9:10] And we'll also do OSHA 30, OSHA 10,

[9:15] any concrete ACI testing, which is American Concrete Institute

[9:20] testing, so they'll know what materials

[9:23] to use, what kind of mixes to use,

[9:25] and how your mix design's work in the city,

[9:28] because you, or I'm sorry, in the county,

[9:29] you guys have your own mix design.

[9:30] And so, we just, we'd like to see our contractors, at least, have a better chance of getting

[9:40] awarded some of these term and supply contracts, we all, and we all, we can get you the numbers,

[9:45] we have all of our minority and women, our minority and women on businesses plus our minority

[9:53] and women members, so we can get you all that information if you guys ever need it.

[9:59] so

[10:00] We have a whole jail made out of concrete. Is core one of your members or what's the process?

[10:06] So core would actually not be one of our members. It's going to be axiom, jade, and they're both our members.

[10:12] We did have some trouble on the jail. The detention center, I should call them, sorry.

[10:16] It has to travel on the attention center at the beginning, but that ended up getting worked

[10:21] out for us pretty early on and I won't speak for all the other trades because I think

[10:27] there was a lot of issues there with the way it was road up under prevailing wage, but as far

[10:34] as on-site we've been okay down there.

[10:38] So fair to say that apprenticeship programs create a quality, a level of quality certification

[10:42] Thank you, that others don't have or what is for a non, a non-member of yours, what are

[10:52] training methods or and that may be hard for you to answer because you're not affiliated

[10:56] with the unaffiliated folks, but what do you see in the field that we would know problems of work?

[11:03] Well, obviously ours is our training programs with the best.

[11:07] have been developed over 100 years on how to train and we are departmental labor registered.

[11:15] There are other trainings out there.

[11:16] So this doesn't make it a union or non-union issue.

[11:20] There are other training programs out there through other, I'm not going to name them, but

[11:25] there are other entities that do it.

[11:27] So if you're registered with a departmental labor, at least there's some curriculum and

[11:32] some somewhat of a standard.

[11:34] Now, ours is going to be a better standard

[11:35] just because most of their curriculum is going to be written

[11:38] off of the things that we've taught in the past.

[11:42] But so that's other questions, comments,

[11:47] thoughts, legislative Smith?

[11:48] So just, most recently at the end of December,

[11:51] we had a contract to term supply bid and request

[11:57] to a group contract for quality custom construction.

[12:00] It looks like we defeated that, so first question or quality, construction, quality, custom

[12:08] construction, sorry, part of your organization?

[12:11] No, they are not.

[12:12] And then the other Vaters, Genesis, Environmental, they part of your organization?

[12:16] Genesis is, yes.

[12:19] It looks like they, well, it's not totally easy and I'm not going to try to reconstruct

[12:24] and McConnell associates, they're not.

[12:27] Okay, so so those were the three bidders we put out do you have a perspective on why we only got those three back as respondents?

[12:36] I do not know. I didn't actually know that terms fly contract was out for bid.

[12:42] I don't know if it's going back out for bid again, but I have talked to a few other contractors that are

[12:47] well that are minority which that's not the end all be all, but that is a that is a help in the county

[12:53] and qualified and they have apprentices registered in our program.

[13:02] Maybe we can, I will have some of our directors here as well, and I'm sure probably

[13:07] Ms. Casement to it probably will come up and talk about some of that too if we need to help

[13:11] gather some folks up. Yeah, that's fine. Ms. Casement can come join us if you'd like.

[13:20] I love to have more competition on that. If you can give me your information, I'll make sure

[13:24] there. Your vendors could go in and register on bonfire. I promise it's very easy. It doesn't

[13:31] take much time and it's free. That will get them not only our beds, but their city can's a city,

[13:37] there's several other entities on there. They would get their beds. But please, always give me your

[13:43] information if you've got vendors that are interested. We'd be more than happy to make sure they get

[13:48] notified more competition we get, the better it is.

[13:52] Absolutely. So any time.

[13:53] All right. Thank you.

[13:55] I need to go ahead.

[13:56] I'll just make the comments. So it looks like the

[13:59] Genesis and McConnell failed on the RBO.

[14:03] Affidavid is just what I'm seeing in summer here. So that might explain why

[14:09] that.

[14:10] I spoke to Genesis about that and I don't like to fill it out.

[14:13] Even though I think they would on the RBO, I think they would have cleared

[14:16] that easily be in signatory members of ours.

[14:21] And I do understand what I'm doing.

[14:22] I just, I've read it.

[14:24] I'm mainly sharing with the group that that seemed

[14:26] to be the item on which the group that was recommended

[14:30] to us was above the other two.

[14:34] That's all, sir.

[14:36] Any other questions, comments or thoughts?

[14:39] All right.

[14:39] Thank you, Mr. Guard.

[14:40] Thank you.

[14:41] Any other folks who would like to testify?

[14:56] I'm Aaron Brown. I'm the business manager of the International.

[15:00] Unit of operating engineers, local 101, and just to tell you what that means, that's all the heavy equipment.

[15:07] And I basically just want to piggyback on what Mr. Harris said, whether they're union or not, what we see in those pictures.

[15:14] It's just a travesty to think that 221 year old men could be gone that quick. You look at that trench and it's from my line of work. You look at that and there's about 15 things wrong with it.

[15:29] And whether they're in the union, or they're not, or they're with a good contractor or not,

[15:35] I think all of us in this room have one thing in common,

[15:37] as we just want the safety for the people that are out there working on your parks and right.

[15:42] And we see that's one of the biggest, in our line of work,

[15:46] as long with Matt, that's one of the biggest safety things that's trench safety.

[15:52] That could just cave in and those guys would be buried alive.

[15:54] And I couldn't imagine a worse place to be,

[15:57] And the person that is not buried in there,

[16:01] he's responsible to guys out there by themselves

[16:03] that he's be responsible to try to dig his body out.

[16:06] That's what we see in those spoils.

[16:09] What do you tell them about the spoils?

[16:10] That's the big mound of dirt right next to it.

[16:12] That's supposed to be away from it.

[16:15] Basically, kind of the rule of thumb.

[16:17] And I'm a crane operator by trade,

[16:19] so I didn't do a whole lot of this.

[16:20] But even I can look at that picture,

[16:22] just like your guys' reactions say, wow, that's bad.

[16:24] But the rule of thumb is if you're going five or six foot down,

[16:29] you need to have it that much that wide too.

[16:31] But just to do it straight up and down, that's a bad way to do business.

[16:36] And we just want the safety, we don't want to hear about that either.

[16:39] All of our organizations, we don't want to hear about anybody getting hurt.

[16:43] And I think we've all reiterated and we've all been able to say that we do have these contractors

[16:48] that can do this safely.

[16:50] We've all been trained.

[16:51] We all go through these apprenticeships that are pretty rough to pass.

[16:56] So we do have an educated workforce for you guys.

[16:59] And we just basically want to come here today and just urge you to look for us.

[17:04] I think we have every qualification for the RBL language.

[17:07] We can fit into what you guys need.

[17:10] And ultimately what we want to do is have a partnership with you.

[17:13] We want to save work environment.

[17:15] We want to work with the county.

[17:16] And we want to continue.

[17:17] I know you guys use us a lot.

[17:18] We just want the opportunity to, you know, when these bids come out, they go to our contractors

[17:24] as well.

[17:27] So basically, I'm just saying what they said.

[17:30] How's that?

[17:30] Any questions or comments from Mr. Brown?

[17:34] How long has it taken your apprenticeship program to operate a crane or have you machinery?

[17:40] So we go through a three year apprenticeship program that requires them to have, I think,

[17:49] it's around 1,500 hours a year to qualify to go to the next one with actual work out in the field.

[17:55] So there's a certification process. They have to get, they have to get cleared in each kind of

[18:02] pizza equipment. A crane operator will have to go and take a national test. It's basically like

[18:08] studying the phone book so they really know what they're having to do. So it's a rigorous training.

[18:14] I like to, in fact, I will brag on our people. They are trained. They are the best at what they do.

[18:18] That's what we represent as we have the best train, safest workforce that's out there.

[18:26] You know, the questions come in, so thoughts, thank you, Mr. Brown. Thank you.

[18:32] Anybody else want to come and testify?

[18:43] I wonder if somebody would be willing to come up and explain the picture

[18:50] and a note that was flagged, literally, about this red flag, preferably if there's anybody

[18:58] from my BW. Anyone want to come up and explain what that red flag is right there?

[19:28] Blood flitter, Barca, could you push your mic up?

[19:36] So just to clarify, and we should have put them up there, my apologies.

[19:41] So running a Jason to this trench is a little red flag right here, and it was explained to

[19:48] that that can be a conduit line, utility line, some other form of notice that is running

[19:57] adjacent to this open trench.

[20:00] When I had a conversation with head of the building and construction trades, Ralph Orpheza, he said that could be an uncase electrical line, lying right next to this open trench, where you're seeing people standing literally in water, digging with an excavator, parallel, a perpendicular to that line.

[20:21] So, just wanted to make sure that we had that as well, noticed here.

[20:25] For the public sake, we have these images here.

[20:28] The legislators have them.

[20:29] I have copies from my colleagues that we'll talk about as well there.

[20:34] Before I move on, I want to make sure and close out any other final opportunities for folks

[20:38] to talk about the impact of terms of supply contractors or the situation I guess.

[20:47] All right, hearing none.

[20:48] We will now close the public hearing.

[20:49] We'll move on to our regular agenda here.

[20:52] I will leave next. We have a resolution. Remember the number.

[20:57] Two one eight seven four.

[21:01] We will hold this unless there's anyone who has an objection to that.

[21:08] Seeing none.

[21:10] We'll continue.

[21:16] We have next.

[21:17] Bringing up our directors of public works as well as parks and recreation to

[21:23] come and share about what's going on with this situation.

[21:26] and talk to us about some of the safety protocols.

[21:52] Well, they make their way up there. Good morning, all.

[21:55] Frank Gattie, a couple of works, Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen.

[21:59] Happy to join you this morning, I think.

[22:04] What Tina and Michelle join us here?

[22:08] Does anybody do yourselves?

[22:26] Lower-Jose?

[22:27] Okay, good morning.

[22:29] Michelle Newman, Director Jackson County Park's plus wreck.

[22:32] with me today as Tina Spala, she is our superintendent of park operations.

[22:38] I think I'll start off with the first situation that I apologize I don't remember the gentleman's name,

[22:46] but that he was talking about in regards to what we considered a basic water leak.

[22:54] When the staff went to restore the water line at, excuse me, went to restore the water at the Longview Marina.

[23:01] They noticed that water was bubbling up from the ground so they took pictures and then they immediately contacted their supervisor and they shut the water back off

[23:13] Tyler Wells who was their supervisor submitted a dig right ticket and to locate any public underground lines because we wouldn't do anything until dig right came out and

[23:26] ultimately let us know, you know, what underground lines there might be. We also had an

[23:32] in-house locator to ensure that there were no private lines, and we also used the in-house locator

[23:38] to help us locate exactly where that leak was at, because if you're going to dig, you know, you

[23:46] don't want to dig over here when, you know, the leak is here, so that's what that locator helps us to do.

[23:52] So, dig right came out that day. They did all the markings off that might have been what the red flag was because they came out and, you know, flagged the area in which we could dig in.

[24:05] And I also want to let you know that the line that you were referring to Chairman was a fiber line, it wasn't an electrical line.

[24:14] And again, that was all, like I say, cordoned off by dig right.

[24:19] So, the park's plus wreck then began digging with a mini excavator around 130 and the afternoon.

[24:27] The job was not completed that day, so the staff secured the area.

[24:32] I'm sure that it's pictures.

[24:34] And once again, I don't have all the pictures.

[24:37] I was not given these pictures that went out to the public this morning.

[24:43] I was not privileged to having any of these pictures.

[24:46] So this is the first time I'm seeing them and I'm only seeing them this big.

[24:50] So anyway, I just want to let you know that, okay?

[24:55] So the job started about...

[25:00] 130 in the afternoon, they began digging with the many excavator. Yes, our associates are trained on heavy equipment. When we hire them, I can tell you that these in particular individuals came with training on heavy equipment prior to us hiring them. And then once they come to the parks department, their supervisor. Also, there are many hours of training that go on each piece of heavy equipment.

[25:28] So, they knew how to use a mini excavator, and about 1-30 in the afternoon they began.

[25:34] The job was not completed that day, so staff secured the area.

[25:38] They secured the area with the orange fencing that you see, and the T-post that you see in the photos that I was originally sent.

[25:47] And what we also decided is that that would give an extra day to dry out anything that needed to be dried out because there was a lot of wind.

[25:55] I think it was pretty warm and they thought that would give the opportunity to then drive the area out.

[26:03] The next day which would have been March the 26th, staff continued assessing the area and the situation and defining the area of the leak.

[26:15] The staff determined it was a minor repair, it was a pin hole leak on the bottom of the pipe.

[26:21] They also determined what kind of patching was needed.

[26:26] Now, I know that there's been talk about

[26:30] soaring, okay?

[26:33] And so what staff related to me and Tina can speak to this

[26:39] was that there was not needed.

[26:41] There was no need for soaring,

[26:43] as the trench was under five foot deep.

[26:46] Best practice typically is to use mechanical soaring

[26:49] for benching when the trench is five foot or deeper,

[26:53] if mechanical shoring had been needed,

[26:55] we would have contacted our term and supply

[26:58] coming contractors.

[27:00] We use US engineering, we use Rand to complete the work

[27:04] as per our standard accepted practice.

[27:06] We don't even have shoring materials within the department,

[27:10] because if it is going to be higher than five feet,

[27:15] then they are to contract this out.

[27:17] And in terms of the environment being wet,

[27:22] it was not a very wet environment.

[27:25] As I say, we gave it an extra day to dry.

[27:29] Even the pictures that were sent by the plumber's photographs

[27:33] clearly show the ground and the top of the trench are pretty dry.

[27:39] And the only place that's actually wet is right down there

[27:43] where the pipe is, where there's actually

[27:46] as you would expect it to be.

[27:49] You know, working in these dry conditions

[27:51] was not some accident or a stroke of good luck,

[27:54] Park Associates intentionally waited that day

[27:56] after incoming uncovering the damaged pipe,

[27:59] specifically to allow the ground to dry

[28:01] in order to form safe repairs.

[28:05] They actually need to do this

[28:06] because they do have years of experience

[28:08] and doing minor repairs throughout the park system.

[28:11] I want to say at that point in time

[28:14] While they were working on it, the plumbing representatives arrived without having contacted the director of the department.

[28:24] And as part of our MOU, it's specifically states in there that if they are coming to our property,

[28:31] that they will show the courtesy of contacting the director of the department to let them know that they are coming on site.

[28:39] I was not contacted, they came on site and, ultimately, they were very cordial, okay, they were very cordial, but they did initially stop work and ask, you know, who the workers were on site, the rep stated that they felt like this was union work.

[29:01] They took pictures of sight as you've got these pictures today, so they were there for quite a while.

[29:08] In the meantime, our associates are contacting our deputy superintendent, and saying,

[29:14] you know, we have union representatives on this job, and he says, I'm on my way out right now.

[29:20] They told the union representative that he was on his way out to talk with them.

[29:27] Now, if they had considered this an unsafe sight, where they felt as they testified today

[29:37] that there was any type of impending tragedy, that is not how they acted at the sight.

[29:45] In fact, they basically said, we are not going to stop your work or get in your way, you may continue working.

[29:52] And here's to start business cards and just make sure that your representative, you know, your supervisor, gets our business.

[30:00] Now, if they had thought this truly, as this last man spoke, that two people could have lost their lives, and they are on sight. They didn't call me. They didn't wait for the supervisor to get there. They didn't stop the job. They just simply said, we're not going to get in your way. You can continue working. I think that that lens credence to the fact that we did not have an

[30:29] unsafe sight out there. They just specifically felt like it should have been union work.

[30:38] So anyway, we began. Again, finishing the fix. It was a pretty easy fix. It just took

[30:48] a stainless steel sleeve to put around the pipe. We didn't put any new pipe in and it took

[30:55] the stainless steel sleeve, they, they, you know,

[30:59] and he also talked about the spoils, okay?

[31:02] The spoils were approximately three feet outside the hole

[31:07] where the major mound of the spoils were.

[31:11] I think it's important to note that most of this was clay.

[31:17] It was not dirt and clay is not prone to cave in,

[31:21] like saturated dirt is.

[31:23] and they certainly felt like they had moved them out far enough to where they weren't

[31:30] going to have to worry about any type of cave in as the gentleman of spoke to.

[31:35] But at the same time, they were in a situation for that would be easier enough to backfill.

[31:45] Okay, so I also want to say that to my knowledge in the 40 years that I've been at the

[31:52] Department. There has been no loss of life. There has been no tragedy in that

[31:58] regard in terms of caveins. There certainly hasn't been in the 17 years that I

[32:03] have been director. We take safety very seriously. These folks are trained.

[32:22] They

[32:22] that we do within the department, we consider those minor repairs to the millions of dollars of infrastructure needs that we have at Jackson County Parks plus REC.

[32:37] If this would have been a sewer issue or septic tanks or anything in which we would need to call in a contractor, we would have.

[32:49] we have term and supply contractors. We call them in all of the time. That was not what they

[32:56] determined this situation to be.

[33:02] And I also want to say that with the trade that we have in the

[33:04] Department, we have a very good working relationship with those BAs. We, you know, we follow the letter

[33:11] of the law. If you're a carpenter, we don't even allow you anyone in our department to hang a

[33:18] picture on a wall, because that's claimed by the carpenters.

[33:23] So we are very good at following the letter of that MOU.

[33:27] And we believe that we did use Vesatei practices,

[33:33] and we don't believe that it was a situation where

[33:37] there was an impending tragedy, because if it had been,

[33:41] we certainly would have expected a plumbers union representative

[33:45] to contact me as the director, stay there and wait until the deputy superintendent got there

[33:51] or shut down the job. Thank you.

[33:56] Okay,

[33:58] there was a lot said and nuanced. First of all, I think you now have copies of this, right?

[34:08] Right here. Perfect, making sure. And the photos as well behind it,

[34:15] Right. The ones noted about me making them public as well.

[34:21] Mr. Newman, when did you ask for the additional photos?

[34:25] I didn't know there were additional photos.

[34:27] When did you ask for additional photos if there were any?

[34:31] I received an email from the union just as you did with a certain number of photos.

[34:37] Right. I thought that those were complete because they sent the email and said,

[34:41] are attached photos to the job site. So I felt in good faith that they had sent me all the photos.

[34:47] I did not know that I did not have all of the photos until a tweet went out this morning

[34:53] with had additional photos that we had not seen.

[34:56] To be clear, Mr. Newman, my tweets are...

[35:00] My privilege of being elected to office. And whether or not, I just want you to know that. Please be clear, this is our commission's purview here.

[35:12] The reality about those tweets, it's the same public that the public saw them doing the work. When did you ask for additional photos if there were any? I didn't ask for additional. Thank you. I shouldn't have had to ask for additional photos. Let me be clear about this because I think this is the problem with all the directors under Mr. Clifford.

[35:29] There is no oneness for us to do your job.

[35:35] So please make sure that everyone understands that.

[35:38] Unfortunately, we find ourselves doing that a lot.

[35:42] So let me go further.

[35:45] How many texts exist in Parks Department?

[35:51] Well, if you're specifically talking about park ops, I would have to see if you knew

[35:57] that number.

[35:58] Tina, there's approximately maybe 55, 60 folks in park operations.

[36:04] operations. Now they're not all texts. Okay, but there I think that they would be approximately

[36:10] that number in park operations. Okay, how many in public works? Do you have any texts

[36:15] in the sky?

[36:18] We consider our associate's equipment operators.

[36:23] So no texts necessarily. We kind of

[36:26] we don't call them technicians. We don't call them equipment operators. Okay, thank you.

[36:32] And of those texts say 40 of them, but because I'm sure you have some admins who are technically texts that are within parks, how many of them have an OSHA 10 card?

[36:44] Sir, we do not know exactly how many have OSHA 10 cards.

[36:48] That's ironic, because as a part of OSHA 10, if you're working in construction, you're required to carry this card on you at all times.

[36:56] Those individuals who are working in that field didn't have this card.

[36:59] This is the basic safety training for all

[37:03] Construction shops the fact that they don't have OSHA 10 cards

[37:07] Makes me very very worried how many of them have OSHA 30 cards.

[37:14] I can't give you that number

[37:17] That's it also problem

[37:19] How many of you have a OSHA 10 card?

[37:23] Well, I don't have a OSHA in there. Then how would you know what proper training is or isn't for the standards?

[37:29] What I can say is that, and what I hope that everyone understands is that we work very

[37:37] much like every other parks and recreation department does within the greater metropolitan

[37:43] area.

[37:45] Whether you are lease on it, or blue springs, or the city in Kansas City, or Johnson County,

[37:50] or Independence, et cetera, in fact, I don't believe that they actually even have any

[37:55] trains as associates and they all do basic infrastructure work. Every single department, within the greater metropolitan area, does basic infrastructure work, which is what we do in the department.

[38:12] If indeed, we feel that is anything other than basic infrastructure work.

[38:17] We will contact an outside contractor, a term and supply contractor, which we do continuously within the department and work with the outside contractor.

[38:30] We don't want there to ever be an unsafe situation.

[38:35] And so, or we can obviously contact Mr. Gaddy's folks in terms of, hey, can we borrow somebody?

[38:45] You know, can we, if that we don't actually have that trade within the department?

[38:50] So I want you to know that we actually do work differently than most departments, because

[38:56] we do have carpenters and we do have painters within our department.

[39:01] But where we are exactly the same is that there's not, to my knowledge, and I will actually

[39:07] investigate it if you want me to.

[39:09] Please do.

[39:09] But to my knowledge, there is not another department that has trade associates within their

[39:16] department and they complete these routine jobs every single day.

[39:23] My clarification on that is to find out how many people have OSHA 10 and OSHA 30 cards.

[39:27] I could care less what we saw in our grantee or anybody else is doing.

[39:30] So you said that these folks have a myriad of training, how much training and from where did

[39:35] these individuals have training from?

[39:38] Tina's follow-parks plus wreck the individuals that were working at the sidehead previous

[39:43] experience working in construction both of them were hired specifically because of their

[39:50] experience in construction and I do not know the exact years that they have behind their belts

[39:58] but, yes, in, yes, in.

[40:00] The heavy equipment, but both of them were specifically hired because of their experience.

[40:06] Any certifications that you can reference or, I mean, because I can go and get a back home and go

[40:12] dig something out of myself that doesn't mean I have any skills. Didn't mean I'm trained. Didn't mean I've

[40:16] licensed any of that. So these folks seem to be operating at least a plumbing category, an operator's

[40:24] category, labor, catagory, those are different crafts completely, so these are

[40:30] jack-a-balk trades who can do many things, but should they, I think, is the real

[40:40] question here. So you can't tell me exactly what level of skill, not even a

[40:45] great of how many years they've worked in prior experience to be able to do this

[40:49] because it seemed like when somebody had asked and they said they were in this

[40:53] five months. That may be on our job site, but how older these individuals because that would

[40:59] kind of question things do. If they're 21, how long have they been digging a hole?

[41:03] I don't think we can get in the ages of art. Right, but 18 is when OSHA allows you to do it. So it's

[41:09] three years if they're 21, it's more if they're older. So age does matter here and it's not a matter

[41:16] of the HR component here. The reality that you're saying they're highly skilled and experienced,

[41:21] they're limited by the age of 18. So if they're 19, they're not highly skilled or highly trained.

[41:28] But that's just a supposition right now because-

[41:31] Okay. Well then we'll move on to the other things that are important here.

[41:35] So

[41:38] how tall do you think these workers are?

[41:43] I'm not going to venture that, yes.

[41:46] I mean, a standard operating equipment is usually probably 7 to 10 feet tall, right?

[41:50] So this individual is presumably higher than 5 feet.

[41:57] I think this is why it's important to make sure and understand why the training is necessary and important here.

[42:05] If you flip the page 1, where it talks about the excavation standard's 29 code of Federal Regulation CFR Part 1-926-Suppart P, it contains requirements for excavation and trenching operations.

[42:17] and it highlights all the specifics and modifications for which some of which you noted, which is important.

[42:24] OSU defines an excavation as any manmade cavity trench or depression on their surface formed by the Earth's removal.

[42:31] Important parts, what are the dangers of trenching, trenching and excavation work presents serious hazards to all workers involved.

[42:37] Caves impose the greatest risk and are more likely than some other excavation-related incidents to result in worker fatalities.

[42:44] One cubic yard of soil can weigh as much as a car.

[42:49] Clay, I assume, is heavier.

[42:51] An unprotected trench can be an early grave.

[42:56] Employers must ensure that workers' injured trenches

[42:58] only after adequate protections are in place to address cave

[43:01] and hazards.

[43:03] Other potential hazards associated with trench work

[43:05] include falling loads, hazardous atmospheres

[43:08] and hazards from mobile equipment.

[43:11] So, a couple things that I noticed

[43:15] in this picture. Particularly this one where the individual standing greater than 5 feet in a trench

[43:22] unprotected by no-shoring of any type is the fact that there are soils right here that are on the edge.

[43:32] If that is clay, it's heavier than soil. OSHA regs require three feet from the main entrance.

[43:39] So, Oshawaan violation. Next, this machine operates with swing, right? So, it spins around.

[43:50] Where is the protection from the swing? For folks walking by, throwing a Frisbee to close.

[43:58] Oshawaan violation number two. In terms of digging a trench, how do you dig a trench?

[44:05] because it's not a straight hole like this, it's to be at a certain angle so that you can climb

[44:12] in or out. Where is the ladder? Did they take a ladder with them? How do they get out of this

[44:19] trench that they dug a hole in?

[44:23] I agree that you do dig at an angle. And when we spoke with them,

[44:27] they said, you know, I think that the pictures can be a little bit misleading, but they did say that

[44:31] they did dig this trench at an angle. And therefore, I believe they were able to get up and out of it.

[44:37] able to step up and out of it if you if you look at the picture which is

[44:41] deceiving where the young man is standing if he was to move to his left there is

[44:46] a step up right there where he can exit the the trench okay and for digging out

[44:55] because it's not just a step up it's got to be at a certain grade here that

[45:00] Doesn't leave much for this side, so I assume it's here. Okay, that's fine. So, again, we want to go a little further, because I think it's important. You had mentioned this experience.

[45:11] Well, OSHA addresses this on page three of that same book. What is a competent person?

[45:16] competent person is an individual designated by their employer who is capable of identifying

[45:19] existing, predictable hazards in the surroundings of working conditions which are unsanitary,

[45:25] hazardous, or dangerous to workers, and who is authorized to take prompt corrective measures

[45:30] to eliminate them. Under the excavation standard has performed by competent persons include

[45:35] classifying soil, inspecting protective systems for which there are none, designing structural

[45:41] ramps, which may be there, monitoring water removal, which seem to be very present, and conducting

[45:47] sight inspections.

[45:50] So again, these are direct from the regs.

[45:53] Thank you.

[45:54] No matter how trenching, shoring, and backfilling jobs, and employee has done in the past,

[45:59] it is important to approach each new job with care and preparation, many on-the-job incidents

[46:04] result from inadequate and initial planning.

[46:07] So, again, I want to pass that some more images here because I think it's important to clarify this.

[46:28] It talks about what safety factors could be considered when bidding on a job, particularly soil classification,

[46:34] location of water table, which you're out of lakes, so I'm assuming it's pretty low, overhead in underground utilities,

[46:39] which was marked, quantity of shore and protective systems that may be required.

[46:45] I don't know what supervisors signed off on that, but clearly they don't have OSHA 30.

[46:52] In sure that while the excavation is open underground installations are protected, supported or removed, it says this over and over again about showing.

[47:00] How can employers prevent cave and on page 5?

[47:03] Oh, should generally requires the employers protect, protect workers from caveins by,

[47:08] slapping and benching the sides of the excavation, sides noted not one side.

[47:13] Supporting the sides of the excavation for which is not here, placing a shield between the side of the excavation and the work area, all of which is not here.

[47:21] What types of protective systems can employers use?

[47:25] There's a variety.

[47:26] And it does reference soil classification, depth of cut, water content, a soil, weather, and climate and operations.

[47:33] There's even an indication of how the great should be cut in this standard for which that trench does not look like this.

[47:45] So, again, questions that are raised.

[47:49] It's specifically sites on page 7, the excavation standards do not require a protected system when an excavation is made entirely in stable rock period.

[48:01] Or when an excavation is less than 5 feet, you said that person is at least 5 feet, so the whole is at least 5 feet is my assumption.

[48:11] And a competent person has examined the ground and found no indication of potential cave ends.

[48:19] I gave you the rest of those pictures because it's important to note, the ground was very, very wet.

[48:26] Granted, from the pipe that was leaking, but very wet still.

[48:34] I'm glad that you let it dry out and that's noted in some of these on the top side of the soil.

[48:39] But if it's saturated at the bottom, it's great for sagging and sinking.

[48:47] I'm a guest, honestly, by your response, Mr. Newman, by you coming in here and blaming

[48:55] me tweeting out to the public, damaging images of the parks department, absolutely, because

[49:01] of the risks to these two workers that are parks employees.

[49:05] Nearly a month after we lost a snow cloud driver.

[49:10] We are putting people at risk because we are not training them to OSHA standards.

[49:14] I don't know what other standards they are in OSHA.

[49:19] The supervisors that you brought up,

[49:21] I'm glad that they're there,

[49:22] but if they're not catching these very, very basic things,

[49:26] I don't understand what they're checking.

[49:29] I think Mr. Ganyan, I have had this conversation before,

[49:32] about making sure the quality of the job is done correctly

[49:36] and that they're safety on there.

[49:39] I could care less if you're mad at me after this.

[49:42] The reality is these two individuals

[49:43] could have had this caved in on them.

[49:46] Not to mention, this tractor should not be in these operating machine, should not be on the edge

[49:50] of the trench, because it only applies more pressure to the trench to collapse on itself

[49:55] and the equipment to fall in on it.

[50:00] These are countless things that are in violation here.

[50:03] May I speak?

[50:05] By all means.

[50:06] Thank you. First of all, with all due respect, I wasn't blaming you for a tweet going out.

[50:13] I was just trying to say, I had not seen those photos. No one had sent me those photos.

[50:20] The unions hadn't sent me the photos. No one had provided the photos to me until they saw them in a tweet that went out.

[50:27] I didn't even reference it as your treat that went out.

[50:30] So please, there's no blame there.

[50:33] Please do not put any words into my mouth

[50:34] because I did not say any of that.

[50:37] Without question, we want safe situations.

[50:42] And again, we have not had and please understand.

[50:48] The reason that safety is so important to us

[50:50] is because we do not want to be sitting in front of you

[50:55] and explain why there was a tragedy, or why there was a cave in, et cetera.

[51:02] This was an basic waterline repair.

[51:08] It was a penhole. That was it. It simply took a silver sleeve to patch it.

[51:17] If the gentleman were really, I mean, in any kind of unsafe, dangerous situation, then I believe

[51:28] on site where union representatives and I believe they could have phoned me.

[51:33] They could have waited for the supervisor to stop you there because they weren't.

[51:38] Stop to tell you how to do yours.

[51:40] It is not.

[51:41] But they do.

[51:41] They're here.

[51:42] You're right to prevent them from having a cave in and two people losing their lives.

[51:46] That's your job. That wasn't the case. And that's what I'm trying to say. Right.

[51:50] In safety is only worrying about when someone loses their lives. That's not how this works, Miss Newman.

[51:55] So this is not the union rep responsibility to tell your workers to get out of a trench.

[52:01] In order to have the authority to do it.

[52:03] Sure.

[52:05] Vice Chair Pate.

[52:07] Thank you so much.

[52:09] My Angelo has a quote.

[52:12] Do the best you can until you know better.

[52:17] Then when you know better, do better.

[52:21] You have stated that parts plus record

[52:23] on 40 years without an incident.

[52:25] That does not mean that we're accident or incident proof,

[52:30] but I am very excited that that is the case.

[52:33] You mentioned that the employees had skills training and excavation using minor heavy equipment for excavation.

[52:45] That's wonderful. I can see why you selected them.

[52:48] However, we now know better because we know that there was a possibility.

[52:55] Not that an accident happened, I understand you using these people for what was a minor leak in a pipe, I understand all that, but once you know better, you do better.

[53:09] We know that it is not a made-up possibility. Something could have happened. It didn't end for that we are grateful.

[53:18] We know that these people have been trained by the standards of the department.

[53:23] You're doing a great job with that.

[53:26] However, we know that there's ocean training that could provide that additional layer of training

[53:33] and support to keep our employees safe.

[53:38] So, and when you know that, you do better.

[53:41] We know that some things may seem small,

[53:45] But that's only because we don't have the full knowledge or extent of any given project.

[53:53] But we know that there are trained trace people.

[53:56] We know that there are trained plumbers.

[53:58] Now, we can assess a situation, but without the ocean training, without the knowledge and

[54:06] insight of the professionals, we could fall short.

[54:10] So this happened and it's very fortunate that it has come to our attention because what now we know better.

[54:20] And now that we know better, the debate is whether or not we're going to step up and put in additional standards.

[54:28] Once it's brought to our attention, what are we going to do to keep our employees safe?

[54:33] Now that it's brought to our attention, how can we do better?

[54:37] And I would like for the conversation to be,

[54:40] what are we going to do better?

[54:42] Now we've already had Barbara Castle Mitchell

[54:46] tell us about her wanting to know more about organizations,

[54:52] about companies that will help us,

[54:56] that could be a part of the big process.

[54:58] What are we going to do to make-

[55:00] Make sure that our employees receive training to avoid situations that could possibly cause any hurricane or danger to anyone, and no matter where we work, and no matter what office we're working in, there's a potential for danger, and the more I need to bend at my knees and practice that, the better off my back is going to be.

[55:23] The more that you know that there are tradespeople that really need to get involved in certain projects,

[55:32] then that's going to make the department better.

[55:35] It's going to keep our people safer.

[55:37] So, that is my field.

[55:43] Now that we know better, we do need to do better.

[55:45] That's just my opinion.

[55:48] Thank you, guys.

[55:49] or pay any other common thoughts or legislators' method.

[55:53] So this is for any of you, or even you, Mr. Clifford,

[55:57] is there a consolidated place where employees,

[56:03] or members of the public, or whatever,

[56:05] can report if there's a safety incident, an injury,

[56:10] or a safety concern that they've run into,

[56:13] it's other employers that I've had

[56:15] a really strict policy like if I even nick my finger practically with a paper cut.

[56:22] I was supposed to call it a supposed to call it an incident report, right? I'm just curious

[56:28] if the county has a universally accessible sort of safety reporting system for either incidents

[56:33] or concerns.

[56:35] Yeah, lifestyles with cable clover county executive office. There are multiple systems. I think

[56:39] there won't be an external system. So if an individual saw something or wanted to report

[56:43] Whatever their concerns were, Office of Community Complaints, Director Crawford is their best first place to call.

[56:50] And then internally within the departments and within HR's policy rules, there are internal reporting requirements for those involved at internet as well.

[56:58] We can provide those to you as well.

[57:00] And those internal reporting requirements do they, is there a universal log for internal incidents?

[57:08] And here's why I'm asking is, because I've seen it in the past, other employers, where

[57:13] an employee uses to their supervisor.

[57:15] Maybe that's the mandatory reporting.

[57:17] Hey, this is unsafe.

[57:19] But then it's not logged and the supervisor might kind of sweep it under the rug.

[57:24] I'm not saying our people have done that.

[57:26] That's why I'm asking if there's kind of a universal reporting system internally, other than

[57:30] O.E.H.R.CC.

[57:32] I think it probably works in parts to provide more detail to this.

[57:35] but I believe that HR is compiling all that information,

[57:38] but I don't know if they hit prints into a singular report

[57:41] for that information,

[57:44] sir.

[57:44] Any, we can lower the counselor's office?

[57:47] Yes, but I was just going to interject.

[57:48] If there's an injury, we do HR does have a process for that

[57:53] where the supervisor and the associate who's injured

[57:56] fill out an incident report, and those are all kept with an HR

[57:59] and then I'll defer to these folks for their own policy.

[58:04] I was actually going to say it's same thing about injury reporting.

[58:06] We also have an open door policy and online platforms for the public.

[58:11] So we have an open door transparent, you know,

[58:15] park in and in protocols.

[58:18] And for go ahead, I was going to say within the parks department,

[58:22] we have all of the different reporting systems,

[58:26] but for our public, they contact our park rangers, park rangers,

[58:29] make a report, they come out to the site,

[58:32] take pictures, do whatever they need to,

[58:34] And then within, like you said, a paper cut is simple as that.

[58:38] I just had a fellow get stunned just the other day.

[58:41] And he made that report that is all documented.

[58:45] We have a safety committee that meets on a monthly basis.

[58:50] And we go over all of our different injuries or incidents,

[58:56] whether it be a vehicle that was damaged or whatnot.

[59:00] And we go back to those associates and let them know.

[59:03] What was decided, whether it was preventable or not, and we keep specific statistics throughout the entire year, for which we present on a yearly basis also at our supervisor's training, which we actually have coming up on April 24, or I'm sorry 23rd, so we take it very seriously, all of our incidents, whether it be very simple as a staying to cutting your hand when you're splitting what those types of things.

[59:33] Okay, I'll just say conceptually, I hear, I think that different departments, things are kind of handled in each department.

[59:43] I think it might benefit the county to have a unified view of all safety incidents, whether they're there.

[59:53] Excuse me, actual injuries or gorgeous concerns raised by this staff.

[59:59] I've heard of some...

[1:00:00] Recently, in other departments as well. So I just want to make sure we're doing what we can to identify

[1:00:06] an opportunity, maybe, for best practices of having one place where all this information can be viewed

[1:00:12] and we can start to develop some historic trends and practices. Other question is, so if we think

[1:00:19] about this individual situation with the trench and the folks that dealt with it, any of you

[1:00:27] tell me what our people doing the work approximately cost compared to if we engage outside

[1:00:37] contractors.

[1:00:38] So I think there's both a safety element to this as well as a fiscal element and for what's

[1:00:44] being described as a pinhole leak that we had people that knew how to handle it.

[1:00:48] Maybe they didn't dot all their eyes across all their teeth by putting the dirt part

[1:00:52] up away and dealing with other potential safety things, maybe there is an opportunity there,

[1:00:58] but I guess if we were to say just hypothetically everything, we call the experts in.

[1:01:03] I think I'm hearing now that we would have had a contractor that maybe do the excavation work,

[1:01:09] different contractor doing the plumbing work, maybe I'm wrong about that, maybe it's just

[1:01:13] one contractor to roll it.

[1:01:14] But I guess I'm just trying to understand, do you guys think there would be a cost implication

[1:01:19] to taking a more strict everything's done by tradesmen type type approach. And if so, how would

[1:01:27] you characterize that cost of location?

[1:01:30] Well, I do think they're going.

[1:01:33] I think there's a multitude of complexities to that question, right? I mean, safety is paramount.

[1:01:38] So we're not choosing outside contractors because we're trying to skim safety, right? So is there

[1:01:45] an economy to doing it internally? Absolutely. I mean, that's just the fact of the matter.

[1:01:49] and it's not necessarily whether they're union organized or not because if we bring

[1:01:56] an outside contractor that's union versus our internal employees that are union, there

[1:02:02] is still going to be an economy to doing it internally, multipliers from through a business

[1:02:07] overhead, et cetera, but we track everything, we track our labor, we track our equipment usage,

[1:02:13] we track our hours, so if you wanted some details of internal versus external, it's

[1:02:19] I think we have done the study in the past year or so, but it's usually around 40% of the cost of external work.

[1:02:28] 30%?

[1:02:30] 30%?

[1:02:31] I'm looking for broad characterization, not so it's very fair.

[1:02:36] So does that have a budgetary implication?

[1:02:38] Yes, can we do 40% of the work we could if it was all external?

[1:02:41] Then the answer is probably common sense-wise, probably so.

[1:02:46] But we don't, we don't necessarily keep those statistics of how did we save money versus external work.

[1:02:51] I just, like I said, there's multiple facets to this that are

[1:02:57] an interesting considerations for me, and I just want to make sure I've brought the light that fiscal aspect to this.

[1:03:03] But I will say that along with parts plus wreck, public works, we do invest a lot into our staff coming in to make sure that they do have the proper training.

[1:03:12] But before we put them in a situation to do work that could have been, you know,

[1:03:18] questionable by individuals that were not trained.

[1:03:20] So we invest a lot of money and time into individuals to make sure they're prepared.

[1:03:25] Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong, maybe more for Mr. Clifford.

[1:03:27] But across all departments, we don't have one chief safety officer, for example,

[1:03:33] a role that's specifically is making sure all departments are

[1:03:37] conforming to appropriate safety standards as effort.

[1:03:40] Well, we do have risk management specialists and individuals that are focused on that area.

[1:03:43] We do not have anyone with a title that you referenced.

[1:03:46] I think that that is an extremely important discussion and one that we want to have

[1:03:50] and one that I'd actually like to go a little bit deeper into this moment.

[1:03:52] I also want to be thoughtful, though, of the open records and open meetings law.

[1:03:57] And as I look back on the meeting invite, I noticed the discussion today is on term of supply contracts.

[1:04:03] We want to make sure that I don't go too far field of that in case there are issues in the future.

[1:04:07] But absolutely, that is a very important discussion to have on whether or not that structure would make sense for Jackson County.

[1:04:13] We have individuals in risk management and we have individuals with end departments that specialize in focus on those areas because of the uniqueness of each department.

[1:04:20] As you might imagine, risk management for a public law enforcement entity like the sheriff's office is very different than public works may be or from parks and from the other offices.

[1:04:30] However, in a umbrella position, they make sense. It's just a cost that the county is going to have to consider in the future.

[1:04:36] Can I ask a follow-up on now and where is the risk manager placed now what department or where is the risk manager at?

[1:04:43] The positions within the finance department, that was the position that was made at least in the prior administration if not some time before that.

[1:04:50] However, some of those responsibilities of what I think are traditionally associated with that position have been taken on by the county councilor's office HR and then within each department.

[1:05:02] I mean, I mean, having taken many classes on risk management versus safety, they're very different. And so I think that's an important distinction to make, and would agree that an opportunity to look for solutions in the future. I do want to go back to Legislators Smith's question about term and supply contractors. And I think the main reason why this came up had to do with more of individuals being employed by us, versus using an outside contractor.

[1:05:30] quality, quality, all of those things.

[1:05:34] I had asked Ms. Casemento to give us some information

[1:05:37] about our terms of supply contractors.

[1:05:40] I believe Monica is working with her tech.

[1:05:43] It's been challenging this morning as well.

[1:05:45] But I'll forge you out to my colleagues,

[1:05:48] all of the terms of supply contractors that were shared.

[1:05:52] Ms. Casemento, if you have it in front of you,

[1:05:53] you're welcome to read it, and if not,

[1:05:56] we can kind of go on off from there.

[1:05:58] You're talking about the one's barber cast mental purchasing department.

[1:06:01] You're talking about the ones who are considered construction.

[1:06:04] Yes.

[1:06:04] I added one more because I forgot that it was kind of late right after noon.

[1:06:09] We've got a spault at concrete, which is delivery and pick up of materials.

[1:06:14] Asphault at products and services, which is a little bit of both work and products.

[1:06:20] Crest rock, which is delivery of materials, electrical services, which is services.

[1:06:26] general construction, which is services, HVAC services, again services,

[1:06:32] liquid asphalt, which is delivery of product, plumbing services,

[1:06:36] which is services, roofing services, again services, and Earthwork services.

[1:06:44] Out of these 10 contracts, only one has an RBO because we didn't start doing

[1:06:48] the RBOs until 2024.

[1:06:51] three of them are delivery, and the other seven all have wage determinations on them.

[1:06:57] Most of them have performance bonds, all of them have insurance, and most of the

[1:07:02] services do call for OSHA, and all the training, and they all have insurance.

[1:07:10] So we add a lot to those terms, apply contracts to make sure we're getting what we need.

[1:07:16] Yeah, and as a self-employed entity, I think it's important that we maintain similar standards

[1:07:20] for the work that we're doing internally. I want to inquire of both directors or supervisors.

[1:07:27] What's the determination for using either terms of like contract or versus going in

[1:07:32] house? Is there a threshold? Is there a focus of work? Any of that stuff? Go ahead.

[1:07:39] Definitely determines on the task and capabilities of our staff. We do have a very trained staff,

[1:07:44] but we do as most government agencies do have turnover. We ensure that our staff are well

[1:07:50] trained enough to tackle the task and the competent people are on site to oversee the task.

[1:07:58] I couldn't give you an actual percentage of what it is. For example, we installed road

[1:08:02] culverts. We do not install install internally anything over 36 inches in diameter. That's kind of

[1:08:07] our standard. Anything in 36 inches in diameter obviously brings in a lot of pieces to

[1:08:14] to OSHA requirements on shoring and trenching capabilities that we don't necessarily have extreme

[1:08:20] amounts of experience and training for, so we choose to use competent contractors from

[1:08:26] the outside.

[1:08:29] I would say that it's really pretty much, I would be repeating what Brian said, you know,

[1:08:35] Barbol was talking about term and supply contracts and we knew that you would ask us to

[1:08:41] come down and talk about those.

[1:08:42] So I asked if I could get a list of all of the term and supply contracts, and then Tina and

[1:08:47] I sat down and went through those to see how many of these do the parks department use.

[1:08:52] And there's at least 140 term and supply contracts that the parks department uses.

[1:08:58] So we definitely contract out when it's necessary.

[1:09:02] I think it's important to understand that we are the largest park system in the state of Missouri.

[1:09:10] we have 21,000 acres of park land. We've got 200 aging facilities and so to be able to do minor

[1:09:20] repairs, you know, when we're talking like, you know, leaky faucets or, um, gosh, changing out light

[1:09:28] bulbs and things of that nature, um, we absolutely need to be able to, do you have those there?

[1:09:35] Thank you. You know, we do, we unlock toilets. You know, things of that nature, we need to be able to do those within the department with the people that we do believe or skilled and that we have trained them in these areas.

[1:09:50] Because they may be at 4-0 sage and then we've got an issue out at Kenneth Road at 150th. We are a customer service based organization.

[1:10:00] Because we, you know, we have our eight million dollar enterprise operation. And, you know, it's important that we're able to respond for minor things as quickly as possible.

[1:10:11] But if it is something major, I assure you, we do contract that out. And we do use several term and supply contracts.

[1:10:23] Mr. Gaddy, in terms of what your statement was, it brought up a question about the quantity

[1:10:31] of trades folks that we have, but I think it sounds like it's shared between the departments.

[1:10:36] Does anyone know what the total amount of folks that are part of that MOU I think that we have

[1:10:42] on staff?

[1:10:42] I think there was a reference to the carpenter's who I think it was.

[1:10:45] We have 24 positions, Parks has five, we have five.

[1:10:50] So 29 total down the county.

[1:10:52] And how do you consider building trades?

[1:10:54] Are they broken down into any specific way

[1:10:56] or are there 15 carpenters and four plumbers?

[1:10:59] What's the ratios, if any?

[1:11:02] So carpenters, plumbers, electricians,

[1:11:04] operating engineers, painters, right?

[1:11:06] We have three painters.

[1:11:09] They have two painters, I believe, two painters, correct?

[1:11:12] Yes, we have four carpenters.

[1:11:16] They have three.

[1:11:17] We have six operating engineers.

[1:11:20] We have three electricians.

[1:11:26] We have five performers.

[1:11:28] And that adds to 24 and I'm just kidding.

[1:11:30] I mean, that's a 24 position.

[1:11:31] We have 24 positions.

[1:11:33] So I asked that question because I think there was an assumption made earlier about 55 employees in parks probably 40 or so as my assumption that are actually

[1:11:42] in a field doing something within a category of construction or maintenance of some type.

[1:11:48] But I want to understand this concept of minor repairs versus major, because a minor repair

[1:11:54] to me is hanging a picture on the wall, but yet we have a carpenter hanging a picture

[1:11:58] on the wall, not a plumber repairing a pipe.

[1:12:02] So I want to understand the difference of what minor and major is and what policy if any,

[1:12:08] either departmental or at our level, governs that.

[1:12:13] I do an interject, we are in the midst of labor negotiations and one of the things we're currently negotiating as a serious issue.

[1:12:21] So we're going to get two in the weeds with what is minor versus major that would need to be in a closed session, which we could certainly.

[1:12:28] I mean, if you want to talk generally, that's fine, but if we're defining right now what is skilled labor versus what is not that is currently the topic of our negotiation in our labor negotiations,

[1:12:39] but we wouldn't need to do that in closed session

[1:12:41] if you'd like us to schedule one.

[1:12:44] I can give you a generalization.

[1:12:46] On plumbing, we have one termans ply,

[1:12:49] that's got the wage determination

[1:12:50] or everything, it's for major projects, big projects.

[1:12:54] We have another termans ply that's for quick,

[1:12:56] easy projects that they need,

[1:12:58] when they need a polymer to come out

[1:13:00] and fix something, they still need the skilled labor,

[1:13:03] it's not going to be a big project.

[1:13:05] So we have two, one's major, one's minor.

[1:13:08] In terms of contract, right, but we're talking workers here, I think, at a different level as well, but that's good perspective.

[1:13:15] I think to have.

[1:13:17] Application is based on capability and backlog.

[1:13:21] If we can't get to something and what needs to be accomplished, sure.

[1:13:25] We will ask somebody to assist.

[1:13:28] We have found, at least from the public work site, from the facility side, because this applies really to facilities more than I think it applies to the rest of public works or parks.

[1:13:35] This is a vertical contract, it actually is very successful on the vertical side of construction.

[1:13:41] We feel and it has been, maybe not statistically verified, but definitely in my opinion,

[1:13:47] that we are more successful when we accomplish the majority of our work internal staff

[1:13:54] that understands the capabilities, understands the systems of facilities we work in.

[1:13:58] We have a very diverse building stock in the county from the Historic Room Court,

[1:14:02] that was first directed in 1829 to brand new buildings in the new detention center of 2024 and everything in between.

[1:14:10] So there is a historic and institutional knowledge required for a lot of the work to be completed.

[1:14:16] We rely on them to perform those tasks.

[1:14:20] And for those new buildings that we do in school upgrades, I'll go back to you guys in one second.

[1:14:24] Just do we have any skill upgrade because I'm guessing to serve as a boiler from the 1900s versus high tech HVAC system

[1:14:31] Very different abilities, right?

[1:14:33] Do we do any of that retraining retooling any of that stuff?

[1:14:37] So this is kind of I think that's kind of a trick question. Yes, we try to give as much information to our staff

[1:14:43] But the MOU is very distinctly describes that skilled tradesmen are provided to the county

[1:14:50] So, if they have things that they need to learn, it's our responsibility to ensure that they do that, but it's their own as to go grab that information.

[1:14:58] And I'll go to Arxon.

[1:15:00] Would you repeat the question please? Yeah, so the first one was about kind of that definitive line to limited ability here in terms of when you use

[1:15:10] Mine, versus major internal versus external. If there's any policy procedures that you all govern yourself are on that would hold that standard secure.

[1:15:19] and then also trying to see if you're adding new facilities online.

[1:15:23] I think less parks.

[1:15:25] Or maybe with some of your green tech that you're using.

[1:15:27] Anything that you're adding to this skill set of any of your current employees,

[1:15:32] with retraining's upgraded trainings to help them manage and maintenance those

[1:15:36] like solar panels, right?

[1:15:37] I mean, that's something that somebody has to probably learn

[1:15:40] in the last decade or two to know how to manage and operate if needed.

[1:15:44] So.

[1:15:45] Well, I think again,

[1:15:46] It internally, it does talk about, you know, are they capable, are they trained, do they have the knowledge to handle this job?

[1:15:55] What is our workload?

[1:15:57] And again, you know, being an apartment as large as we have,

[1:16:01] we really do depend on the people with, as Brian said, institutional knowledge, knows our facilities.

[1:16:08] If it is a minor repair being able to do that job,

[1:16:12] If it is something that we believe needs to be contracted out, we don't hesitate to do it.

[1:16:17] You know, we have a full budget for work that needs to be contracted out, and so we don't hesitate to do that.

[1:16:27] Questions, comments from my colleagues?

[1:16:28] I think we're nearing an end of this discussion unless anyone else has any.

[1:16:33] Yes.

[1:16:33] Vice Chair.

[1:16:34] Well, we'll let her go first and then I'll go back to you.

[1:16:36] And actually I know that there will be a few more comments, but before we get to those,

[1:16:41] I wanted to make sure that we take a moment to look back and talk about those things that

[1:16:48] we want it to hear back from administration a lot, because sometimes that gets lost.

[1:16:54] So if we could take a moment and say, I know that I could throw it to Miss Miller and be

[1:17:01] real mean, but I won't say, to list out all of our follows, but I think the main thing

[1:17:08] to follow up and find out what of your staff members have OSHA 10, OSHA 30, and you need those

[1:17:13] certifications. Maybe by training guide or something that gives reference to the expectations

[1:17:18] of your employees. I think Mr. Gattie, you've supplied that in the past about your own personal

[1:17:23] public works. I think safety standards and protocols. But it does a different one for parts plus

[1:17:29] wreck. Understanding from this situation, I think the incidental situation here, what could

[1:17:37] done differently, what's going to be done differently here, and that follow-up what standards

[1:17:41] exist for safety, broadly from your departments as well, and trainings that exist on these

[1:17:48] topics. Looking back down here and seeing if there's anything else. Go ahead.

[1:17:55] One of my concerns in this conversation has been the fact that I think let's slater Smith

[1:18:01] brought this up, or I just laid our barca.

[1:18:04] We do not have a safety captain.

[1:18:08] We do not have someone other than, and thank you very much,

[1:18:13] for mentioning risk management.

[1:18:15] But in that also, Mr. Clifford,

[1:18:18] you mentioned that the definition of what they do varies.

[1:18:25] So we're not specifically sure how risk management plays

[1:18:30] into those safety records, those safety history, making sure that safety is being talked and trained

[1:18:38] and making sure that work sites are safe internally, are making that determination when we

[1:18:45] need to call in professionals to do the job rather than putting that on is on the department

[1:18:52] hate because the safety captain, of course, would have a broader scope and be able to help

[1:19:00] us keep track of ways that we can continue to improve as a company.

[1:19:06] So I throw that out because I think it's an excellent idea, I'm very needed.

[1:19:11] Others that had elements here, I did have one question that was a follow up to that point,

[1:19:17] Does the legal department look at any of this stuff at any point for liability impacts so say, you know, we get an incident report of somebody cut their finger on that job

[1:19:27] Do you all ever get to look at that from a liability standpoint in any of these situations?

[1:19:32] At times, Whitney Miller is a counselor's office. At times we do certainly have thirst, litigation or threat and litigation or

[1:19:40] reason to believe there could be litigation I mean we certainly don't review every incident

[1:19:44] report but yeah do you see like the incident I think we had heard about some safety

[1:19:50] training incident reports about how many incidents have occurred on the job at a

[1:19:54] certain thing do you get any of that or who what does that go human resources

[1:20:00] We're very closely with our third party work comp group that we meet with on an annual basis to discuss occurrences.

[1:20:08] I don't know about Michelle's group, but mine has had very few in recent years. Obviously, we have a very large one recently, but for the most part, we have had very few too.

[1:20:19] I'm not sure if we have any major other cases going on right now.

[1:20:22] I will also admit I've done nearly everything in our office in the last 13 years but I've never touched

[1:20:27] work comp. So I would I would ask our my colleague and get back to you on that.

[1:20:32] What they.

[1:20:33] All that information is recorded. I think it was important.

[1:20:36] And we work very closely with the risk manager as well as HR.

[1:20:41] In regards if there are any kind of incidents that we feel we need to contact them.

[1:20:46] Who is the risk manager?

[1:20:47] I don't know if it's just math is infinite.

[1:20:54] And go ahead.

[1:20:55] Yeah.

[1:20:56] Yeah.

[1:20:56] I was just going to say, and follow up to Legislative Patents.

[1:21:01] I know that you were speaking about an overall safety committee.

[1:21:06] But if you all would like, we would be happy to.

[1:21:10] I know that you talked about, you know, the training guide who's OSHA 1030 certified

[1:21:14] etcetera but you know we certainly have our SOPs and but if you would like we can

[1:21:21] provide you our safety committee our chief of park safety overseas that and we could certainly

[1:21:27] provide you the logistics in terms of of how that is ran and our monthly meetings etc if that would be

[1:21:34] of help. That would be great happy to come and listen learn as well. Okay. Any other comments or

[1:21:42] Forgotten, follow-ups. I'm sure there may be more. I'll have my team reach out and find out for sure.

[1:21:47] Are we okay to put down some of the response to minor, major and writing, send it over and do it, close that?

[1:21:54] So we'd have to do a close session. Is that a right from the department heads?

[1:21:57] Would it, sorry, what do you mean put it in there?

[1:21:58] Just like what the determination is, like, what is the line, right?

[1:22:01] If it's a five-feet trench versus a two-feet trench, or is it, you know, what are standards just to know when to say flag up flag down in the middle?

[1:22:10] Again, generally speaking,

[1:22:12] considering we're still in negotiations,

[1:22:14] I don't think we're pretty discussed that.

[1:22:17] We are continuing our discussions with them,

[1:22:19] and we feel pretty strongly that

[1:22:20] those negotiations could conclude this week.

[1:22:23] Should that be the case?

[1:22:25] That will probably be written some form in the agreement.

[1:22:29] Any legislation that we need

[1:22:30] to consider following up

[1:22:32] to do that would be helpful to you all?

[1:22:37] I mean, is it helpful to adopt

[1:22:39] Ocean standards, regs, anything like that to help guide support safety programs, safety managers,

[1:22:46] I mean anything like that that you, you all as directors, think would be helpful.

[1:22:51] That might be good if we could sit down and chat through rather just hard to interrupt yourself,

[1:22:55] but if we could have some time to talk through that. How about I say, you know, send me some ideas

[1:22:59] two weeks or so when we can all workshop whatever to figure out going forward. I think the goal of

[1:23:04] everyone here was to make sure that we have a safer workplace, not creating a liability

[1:23:08] for the candidates unnecessary, continue the work of parks and public works.

[1:23:14] And make sure that the work is quality done, right?

[1:23:16] I think Mr. Getty and I have at least had conversations about inspection, right, how

[1:23:20] we don't, we don't have an inspector per se that comes and checks our work to see the quality

[1:23:26] of that, right?

[1:23:27] So somebody is slipping, who does that?

[1:23:31] We actually do.

[1:23:32] I don't know what we had the conversation.

[1:23:35] Part of what we did.

[1:23:36] Barely I made this conversation up, and I appreciate this conversation, because safety

[1:23:42] is absolutely paramount, right?

[1:23:44] I mean, something we talked about in our tailgate talks every single day, we encourage

[1:23:49] our corpsmen to talk to our people that safety is paramount.

[1:23:52] We want them to go home with their families, their loved ones, exactly how they showed

[1:23:55] up in the morning.

[1:23:57] Give her a check.

[1:23:59] But there's nothing in the middle.

[1:24:00] Let's go home and say.

[1:24:02] But I would ask because we do this type of work every day.

[1:24:07] And I understand that we are working with a lot of documentation.

[1:24:09] We have a lot of professionals that are experienced with this onsite.

[1:24:13] But the fact that this wasn't a formal investigation or analysis, there's kind of a lot of

[1:24:18] hearsay on what is truth, factual, and not.

[1:24:21] I think the intent is important that we need to be following certain practices,

[1:24:26] practices, best practices, and federal regulations, which we all can agree that that's the case.

[1:24:33] But if we are just going to start picking out things to have these discussions on, I would like to ask that we

[1:24:38] have an investigation or an analysis prior to bringing it to an open form and airing this out to those

[1:24:44] who may not understand this type of business and think that something is going on that is not.

[1:24:50] And I will say that we will gladly consider that in the future,

[1:24:53] I will also suggest that I too have an open door policy.

[1:24:56] Any one of you could have called, we could have had conversations leading up to this.

[1:25:00] And I didn't receive any phone calls. Furthermore, we can say that I would welcome third party analysis for some of this work because I think that would be very helpful, not no offense to you all, but I think it's hard to say as an employee of an individual, hey, I do need additional PPE and I've asked for it five times and I don't get it, or I don't want to get in this whole, or I don't want to go out on the shift today and to say that higher-ups or, you know,

[1:25:30] media areas may be creating situations and environments that aren't conducive for whistleblowers.

[1:25:37] I think that is an opportunity for us.

[1:25:39] So I hope that that up is a great potential opportunity to move forward with legislators

[1:25:43] to message legislation and see what else we can add there to help protect employees and

[1:25:48] our own enthusiasm.

[1:25:49] I was just going to say, well, make sure we hold that one today so that's fine.

[1:25:52] Look and make sure that we've addressed safety issues in another area of people can report.

[1:25:56] I think that's great.

[1:25:57] So, thank you all, if without any other business before the committee, all right, at 12.05, we're adjourned, isn't that?

Public Works Committee on 2025-03-31 10:30 AM - KC (Final)

Agenda

Transcript