[0:07] after fire plan uh 2019 which was approved by council in 2020. So that

[0:12] direction was for five uh four and two to consolidate obviously station five

[0:19] and four consolidated and now this is the next step in the process uh to

[0:23] complete the consolidation as per his master fire plan. So to assist with the

[0:28] uh consolidation of station 4 and two uh we did hire LUMX to look at different

[0:33] options for us. Uh so we have Jerry Pigatory uh and Chris Berg from uh LUMX

[0:41] who are professionals in this field for looking at consolidation master fire

[0:45] plans. So kind of gives you a little spiel on it but they are subject matter

[0:49] experts on this kind of thing. So it's great to have them as a resource. And

[0:52] then we have our CIO uh Suzanne Char here as well. Um so again, thank you

[0:57] guys for coming and we turn it over to Lumas and they will begin the

[1:00] presentation. Thank you very much. Thanks Chief. I appreciate that. Thank

[1:04] you very much and and thank you everybody for turning out tonight. Uh as

[1:07] the chief has indicated um we're a Lumix company um which specializes in

[1:14] strategic planning, fire master plans, and community risk assessments. And um

[1:19] from our perspective uh there were three of us involved in this. Our our

[1:25] colleague Terry Jer who's not with us tonight, my colleague Jerry Pigtori and

[1:30] myself. Just as a little bit of background collectively, we got well

[1:35] over a 100red years of of service within the fire service and experience as well

[1:40] as uh like 15 20 years of doing consulting work within the fire service.

[1:46] We're local. Uh we're not coming in from a long way away. We're local people,

[1:50] which is kind of nice. As I told the chief, we had some conversations a

[1:54] little earlier. Um I had the privilege of of of doing fire master plans and

[2:02] strategic planning for Carl Place, Drummond, North Elmsley, Tay Valley,

[2:08] Perth, McNab, Braayside, um Renfruit, just among others. So we're certainly

[2:14] quite familiar with the region. It's not like we're just being airlifted in here.

[2:18] We understand the concerns and the and the uh restrictions on a lot of these

[2:23] decision making processes. Um from our perspective, the township was already

[2:28] provided with with the community risk assessment and fire master plan to guide

[2:32] the township. And as the chief indicated earlier, that approval and the

[2:37] recommendation contained in the fire master plan

[2:40] » are either completed at this point or in progress. And this one tonight is one of

[2:45] the ones that's in progress and looking at options which was our role in this

[2:50] whole passage looking at the options to consolidate uh the station two and four

[2:55] models and when I do pass it over to my colleague Jerry's going to we do have

[3:01] some maps certainly to come up later. they're uh long distance away from you,

[3:05] but you want to come up later and have chats with us. That's always uh most

[3:09] welcome and some certainly as a a display board thing. Sometimes people

[3:13] see that a little bit more tangible and and tactile to look at what is exactly

[3:18] there. We will be putting it up on the big screen a little bit later on after

[3:23] my introduction to talk about the process of amalgamating the two stations

[3:30] and what the impact is. uh across across uh the township. So um we'll be looking

[3:38] at the data that the chief provided for us on the creation of of what is called

[3:43] our GIS mapping tools to assist us with this review. And that will be the the

[3:48] process that you'll see up on the screen. uh from our perspective and from

[3:53] the most recent data that the chief provided to us, we're going to be

[3:56] looking at data which includes fire calls, medical calls, car fires and

[4:02] using that information uh to ensure that the decisions are made based on fire

[4:07] safety and supporting critical tasks and firefighter safety required for the

[4:13] protection of lives and property. Two critical elements. We also um heavily

[4:20] rely on the the province in terms of the goals supported by the Ontario Fire

[4:25] Marshall and the and their three three lines of defense or their tenants that

[4:29] they they have which is basically three-fold fire safety information or

[4:34] fire prevention and education, fire enforcement and inspections to make sure

[4:39] places are safe. And the third part of that is emergency response, uh, fire

[4:43] suppression, medical calls, car fires. And so when we put together the maps,

[4:48] and we'll go through this in a minute, you will see the road network that's

[4:53] traveled. You will see the the the coverage area. And what we're trying to

[4:58] do is synthesize the maps to show you exactly how many people are going to be

[5:02] showing up for any given location at any given time. Obviously, there are

[5:06] anomalies depending on day of the week, weekend, evenings, but this is based on

[5:11] the data that we've received over the last number of years to consolidate it

[5:15] all and and follow a proper path to make sure that we're accurate in that

[5:20] assessment. Um that information uh will be projected up there and Jerry will

[5:26] take you through it slowly so that everybody can follow the exact path

[5:31] where firefighters are coming from and how they will populate the area that is

[5:35] required. Um some additional things I'll just add to

[5:40] it at this point rather than waiting till the very end if that's okay. Some

[5:43] additional points that that um we also took into consideration

[5:48] uh were things like limitations of the existing facilities. Well, the building

[5:53] down the hall is a night or down the street is a nice building. There are

[5:57] specific limitations that put um hardfast rules in place in terms of what

[6:03] we can do moving forward. Uh things like suitable storage, uh suitable meeting

[6:09] meeting space, a training room, uh updated washrooms, proper uh storage and

[6:14] and holding of uh personal protective equipment, proper ventilation for

[6:20] firefighter safety and and and uh and cancer prevention, which is which is

[6:25] paramount within the province. Health and safety of the firefighters is key.

[6:30] Um, and while the the fireh hall I think was built in the '9s and probably built

[6:34] by a lot of the people in this room, uh, and have pride in ownership in that

[6:40] facility, uh, we have to look at the longevity of a hall like that and even

[6:46] looking one or two years down the road just in terms of firefighter safety and

[6:51] storage and capacity for firefighters, let alone where we may be going

[6:56] eventually with vehicles. Uh trucks today are extremely expensive and

[7:02] they're bigger, much bigger. And to retrofit an existing building uh to make

[7:10] it maybe habitable in that regard um is not the right answer. The right answer

[7:15] is to look at uh moving it to another location, creating a new facility, maybe

[7:20] adding uh some extra benefits in there like for firefighter safety, things like

[7:25] storage facilities, training room, so that you know every time you go into the

[7:30] hall and you want to do some training, you're not on the apparatus floor

[7:33] breathing in all the diesel fumes that come with most older stations without

[7:37] any kind of adequate ventilation or exhaust system that allow for limiting

[7:42] cancer and mitigation that regard. Um, so the replacement of existing

[7:47] apparatus, I'm sure the chief uh has looked at it and and forecasted for the

[7:52] next 5 to 10 years, like any good fire master plan will tell you, you have to

[7:56] forecast into the future to really determine what the needs of the

[8:00] community are. And if the needs can't be met because the vehicles are bigger, uh,

[8:06] the cost of the vehicles, the height of the vehicles, the size of the vehicles,

[8:10] and the facilities within the existing station aren't suitable.

[8:14] you're better off to relocate it and build a new one that will meet all the

[8:18] demands for the next uh 20 30 40 years for the fire service.

[8:23] It also in in a number of uh reviews that we've done around the province and

[8:27] we've done everything from as far away as Windsor all the way to the border in

[8:32] M in uh in Quebec. Um so many chiefs have told us that you know yes while

[8:38] it's an initial blow to close a station or amalgamate a station. Um the ultimate

[8:43] benefit has been it's a new facility and new people stepped up and decided to

[8:49] volunteer because they saw the new facility. Townships or municipalities

[8:53] were also eager to jump on the fact that they could maybe add a little bit of

[8:57] space in the facility to have like this like a community uh facility that could

[9:04] be utilized by the public for for meetings or for social gatherings. So

[9:09] there's a lot of trade-offs that can be made, but from our perspective, looking

[9:13] at the the the three-station model and and the consolidation of station two and

[9:18] four um comes with a lot of benefits um that that are important and and just

[9:24] saying that the facility is fine and it can last another 10 years really doesn't

[9:30] address a lot of the concerns that we saw initially and are seeing across the

[9:34] entire province uh in terms of uh you know adequate washing facilities. ities

[9:39] in terms of adequate ventilation, adequate training facilities and storage

[9:44] facilities. I know you you store your PPE on on a rescue, but that in itself

[9:49] is something that is is frowned upon across Ontario because of the off gasing

[9:55] that occurs from your PPE. So it really needs to be either in a selected area or

[10:01] in a facility that has proper ventilation to to to mitigate uh

[10:06] carcinogens and cancer risks in firefighters which is quite prevalent in

[10:10] Ontario. Um so firefighter health and safety is key for us as well. Um in

[10:16] making the overall decision and how this went it was it came out of the the fire

[10:20] master plan uh that was presented to the chief. Um, our view of all of this was

[10:25] to look at consolidation and see what the benefits were. Ensuring that we had

[10:30] proper coverage within your community, ensuring that we had uh what we call an

[10:35] effective response force to make it out to the calls and firefighter safety

[10:41] again sort of key element. Firefighter safety on an emergency response. Um,

[10:47] it's not about one person driving a pump to a call. It's about having enough

[10:52] people there to protect not only uh the uh the property owners uh but also to

[10:59] protect the firefighters because it's a dangerous occupation.

[11:02] So having said that um we're we're now looking at three options that we

[11:08] reviewed uh and the options were that we would uh we would consolidate station

[11:13] four and two, but we took it down a notch and and that's partially what

[11:18] we'll see up there. So, we'll be happy to talk to people a little later on in a

[11:22] more one-on-one basis if you'd like. Uh, we have the the four station model at

[11:27] the far end, and then we have what we call uh model 2B and 2C. and Jerry will

[11:34] go over those two options to show you how the coverage for firefighters takes

[11:38] place in the road network and and capacity of the number of individuals

[11:42] that show up at any given time uh for what we call the effective response

[11:48] force for protection of firefighter health and safety.

[11:51] So, uh I'll turn it over to my colleague. So, hopefully you can see it

[11:56] up there. And one of the reasons we brought the hardboard maps with us too

[12:00] is because can't follow it that closely on the

[12:04] small screen. We're more than happy to walk you through any of the scenarios

[12:08] that we have up on the boards after that. So I'll turn it over to Jared.

[12:12] Thank you very much. So um just so we have we understand

[12:18] where we're coming from. Um these maps there every every road in this map is a

[12:26] segment and that segment has been assigned the speed limit that that's the

[12:32] posted on those. Now yes fire trucks have lights and sirens. Everybody thinks

[12:38] they go faster than the normal speed limit but they rarely do. Uh the trucks

[12:44] are so big, so heavy. Uh imagine on a night like tonight, you know, it they're

[12:49] you have to slow down and then the amount of time it takes you to speed up.

[12:52] So the actual road speeds, believe it or not, is pretty close and accurate to

[12:57] what these apparatus actually do when they're driving to an emergency.

[13:04] The other thing we have to take into consideration is time frames.

[13:08] » Uh we've broken this up into different time frames. Um, you know, every one of

[13:14] the stations, what we've done is we've made them drive for 10 minutes, 14

[13:19] minutes, and 20 minutes to see where how far they reach from the fire hall. What

[13:27] we do have to do though is not so you think, oh, in 20 minutes I'll have all

[13:32] the these people arrive, is that you we call it shoot time or assembly time. the

[13:37] time it takes for the volunteer firefighters to from the time of the

[13:41] page to get to the fire station and leave with the fire truck and that's

[13:45] called the shoe time and the data that the chief has provided is is very very

[13:50] good. Therefore, our analysis actually works in the benefit of of that good

[13:56] data. What I'm and so every one of these um the stations have what we call a

[14:03] shoot time. This was uh and we only took uh calls that were a true emergency in

[14:11] the sense where it was a structure fire, it was a car fire, it was a heart

[14:16] attack, you know, not a state, not a call that was a, you know, carbon

[14:20] monoxide with no symptoms because that would skew that assembly time. Okay, so

[14:27] I just show you an example of a station one, Lark station.

[14:34] uh how far from their station you see those lines there. I could blow it up

[14:39] here just a little bit. So in 10 minutes minus their 4 minute

[14:46] and 20 second shoot time that's how far they reach.

[14:51] In 14 minutes that's how far they reach. And in 20 minutes

[15:00] that area is all covered. Yes, a lot of that's out at your border. We didn't

[15:04] want to cut it off at the border. That's that just shows you that because it goes

[15:08] out into those road networks. So, that's an indication of your uh land

[15:15] station and how far they manage to get in those time frames.

[15:23] » Now, what I'm going to show you is

[15:29] station two.

[15:33] Middle Station.

[15:36] Um, second here. Let me turn this off.

[15:48] That off there. Give me a second.

[15:58] Thank you. that I have myself. See, things go

[16:01] really well with that help station.

[16:08] Everybody knows where that is, right? Are blow it up there just to show you.

[16:15] But that's where the existing station is.

[16:19] Then in 10 minutes, that's how far they get.

[16:27] in 14 minutes

[16:31] and in 20 minutes. So pretty pretty good coverage

[16:37] those stations. Can you just show the toss about now?

[16:42] » Sure. About 20 minutes.

[16:46] Those times up again the 20 minutes. >> Yeah. Okay. So, as you can see where

[16:51] this station is, it it gets all well almost where station four actually is. I

[16:57] just wanted to keep you keep that in mind that it's gets up to that station

[17:02] 20 minutes. Is that okay?

[17:06] It's fine. I'll show you where

[17:21] in 10 minutes that's how far they get. They have a shoot time of 4 minutes and

[17:25] 48 seconds. So again, 14 minutes, that's how far

[17:31] they get. Just like every other time frame you we have deducted the

[17:36] shoot times and 20 minutes that's where negative

[17:43] pretty good.

[17:47] Now station four

[17:52] take station four and so they have a shoot time of 10 minutes and 10 seconds.

[18:00] So, in 14 minutes, they're barely out the station, right? They're out the

[18:06] station. I didn't have a 10-minute one. I didn't put a 10-minute one because

[18:09] they wouldn't leave the station by >> station

[18:15] in 20 minutes. That's how far they

[18:21] » Okay. So now I'm going to show you that if we

[18:26] when we consolidate four and two, we have two options that we were looking

[18:31] at. One called 2C and the other one called 2B. 2B for all intents and

[18:38] purposes is the same area as Middleville.

[18:43] While station 2 is halfway between the Tat and Middle. So

[18:49] there were some assumptions made here. When we talk about 2C and we talk about

[18:54] their shoot time, we took an average of station 2's shoot time and station

[19:00] four's and we gave them that that as a shoot

[19:04] time.

[19:08] Just close this up here. Go through.

[19:14] So, if we were to place the station in that area, I'll just blow it up so

[19:18] everybody kind of gets an idea of where. Not a parcel of land that we're

[19:23] necessarily looking at, but it's it's the area that we're that we were looked

[19:28] at. So, with the average shoot time that I

[19:33] was saying, that comes out to about a 7 minute and 28 second shoot time for this

[19:37] proposed site.

[19:43] So that's how far they would get in 10 minutes,

[19:49] 14 minutes, and in 20 minutes.

[19:55] » Did you do any uh mathing with a longer shoot time?

[19:59] » No. No. Because we were satisfied with with

[20:04] See, here's one of the things I just want to show you while we're talking

[20:06] about that. also and you know when we talk about shoot times and you wonder

[20:10] why um

[20:17] why things take so long there's where all the volunteer fire goers live right

[20:22] now I know changes from time to time but nothing drastically right so you can see

[20:27] that the vast majority are in this area leaving that area only having a few in

[20:33] there that's why you know it's it's but if the 2C

[20:37] was in that area. They still have a considerable amount of volunteers living

[20:41] at close by. So again, this made that the assumption that we made the 7 minute

[20:46] shoot time would would probably be true.

[20:58] See, that's a 20 minutes.

[21:07] Now if we were to look at

[21:12] 2B

[21:15] 2B would be very close to this station. What 11 km we're saying about 10 km the

[21:22] site that the town the municipality owns that site.

[21:29] So I'll blow it up so that everybody sees where it is and people would know

[21:33] where it is. That would be 2V.

[21:38] So 2V and that one there we gave the same shoot time as the existing middle

[21:44] station because again you can see where all the firefighters live and it

[21:48] shouldn't be the same.

[21:52] So yeah, that's a light color but it's showing up there pretty good. So that

[21:58] would be in 10 minutes

[22:04] and 14 minutes

[22:09] in the 20 minutes. So it almost gets up to the area where they get pretty

[22:15] remote. Still does a pretty good job of of that area.

[22:29] So, one thing I want to show you at a 20 minute drive for each one of these

[22:34] scenarios, what's what I'm talking about is, of course, the um

[22:43] the proposed stations 2B and 2C, which you'll be able to see on the flatard up

[22:49] here.

[22:57] So this is 2B

[23:04] 10 minutes.

[23:09] Hold on there. Give me a second.

[23:17] » Open up the wrong box.

[23:21] First, I'm going to show you what we have currently.

[23:29] Show you the 20 minute travel station one, station two,

[23:35] station three,

[23:43] station four. So these are all the stations leaving

[23:48] the same top with you know in those time frames and they overlap which means they

[23:57] converge and what's important for us about

[24:02] firefighter safety is is where does it where do we have enough overlapping that

[24:09] provides our firefighters what we call Um

[24:15] the uh looking for a word here >> effective task force

[24:19] » response the effective response sucks getting old

[24:25] here anyway. So this is the effective response. Okay, which means how many

[24:31] fire there's there's a lot of critical tasks that must be done at any single

[24:35] family home fire. And you know we talk about the pump operator, we talk about

[24:39] the two firefighters, you know, with a hose going in. We talk about two

[24:42] firefighters outside in case the two firefighters inside get into trouble. Uh

[24:47] the person in command. Uh you know, there's all of those things. You know,

[24:51] water supply know in a lot of the areas that we have that we have to set up for.

[24:57] It takes a lot of people. So, what you'll notice is that the convergence of

[25:03] of what you have now is is is not bad, but it can be improved. So why not take

[25:11] you know the advantage of of consolidating two stations now and

[25:15] looking at some areas that could actually improve that effective

[25:18] responsiveness. So we looked at just give me a second

[25:24] here so I could close all of these.

[25:34] So first I'm going to do the uh 2C

[25:54] So there is the three stations converging

[25:58] similar to what we had only the overlap

[26:06] is still up high here because of course we've moved that 2C up farther to

[26:12] station where station 4 would have been but all of the

[26:18] effective response force is a little bit high and still in remote areas.

[26:24] Community risk assessments have always shown where the the the the biggest

[26:30] challenge or the higher risk areas and of course the village Lannarch village

[26:35] is very very important and here you have you know only nine firefighters in 20

[26:40] minutes in that area that could be very detrimental for not only the community

[26:44] but for the firefighters.

[26:50] So if we looked at

[27:00] 2B and I still have to turn some things off

[27:04] here. Hold on.

[27:22] So, just while Jerry's turning these things off, just as a reminder, folks,

[27:26] the maps that we have in front of us, the hardboard ones are scenario 2B and

[27:31] 2C. Want to come up later? We can walk through them because it they're right in

[27:36] front of you. You can probably see them a little bit better, but they represent

[27:40] the same data that we're putting up on the screen.

[27:42] » Can you just explain to B2C? Are these stations that are there or you're

[27:47] planning on building these? >> Well, we're we're planning on building

[27:53] one. We're going to combine station 4. >> Yes.

[27:57] » Station two, middle build into a new site

[28:01] » where and those options are two. >> So, the 2B and the 2C was where we were

[28:06] looking. That's why we blew it up on the map. I could go back to that, but I just

[28:11] want to show you >> a convergence of of

[28:15] » the proposed 2B, which is very close to here. 2B would be built very close to

[28:20] here on the >> parcel that the municipality owns.

[28:25] » And 2C >> 2C, it's just we just showed the area.

[28:30] We don't

[28:36] » could you show where cat is on that map? Could you point to where it is

[28:42] » because right now I'm not like I can't get where we are at

[28:52] all. >> Where are we on that map?

[28:55] » The very top >> station. But if you could take your

[28:58] cursor and just >> go to where

[29:03] » right where the cursor is where station points.

[29:05] » So almost at the f the top like the furthest away then

[29:10] » right >> very remote.

[29:14] » Right. >> And there was 2C that we've showed you.

[29:17] That's just a parcel of land right in this area where I'm showing. And now

[29:21] we're looking at where 2B >> and there's no coverage of White Lake

[29:27] whatsoever. >> No. Well, there is Bean, but there have

[29:32] a mutual aid. Yeah. Go ahead. >> I answer that. So, the consolidation of

[29:36] stations two and four do not have a response implication on the residents of

[29:40] White Lake. We have that through a mutual aid agreement with the township

[29:44] of Mississippi Mill. >> We have no responsibility for White

[29:46] Lake. Is that what you're saying? >> I did not say that. No, what I said is

[29:51] the consolidation of station two and four. It does not have a direct the

[29:55] where the location of the station is doesn't impact the residents of White

[29:59] Lake. >> Okay. And we don't want it to impact

[30:03] them >> based on the consolidation of stations

[30:06] two and four. The focus right now is on Middville and the TW residents.

[30:15] We do have >> we have automatic aid agreements with

[30:20] nside as well and this mill if you have questions feel free to reach out to me

[30:25] at any time or come into my office and certainly have a discussion in regards

[30:28] to the automatic a

[30:34] in progress of being built before we quote falls like by these maps 20

[30:41] minutes isn't even getting to us. So

[30:46] » right now we're in better shape as it is than what you're proposing or what

[30:52] you're doing. >> That's a fabulous point. Absolutely. I

[30:54] appreciate that. Um so when we look at these, we're basing all this upon

[30:59] long-term planned fiscal responsibility. And when we look at the fire underwriter

[31:03] survey, um there is deadlines for frontline apparatus such as your pumpers

[31:08] and your tankers at 20 years. So currently station 4 apparatus are due to

[31:12] be replaced uh next year. So the apparatus costs like Chris has alluded

[31:18] to, we be looking upwards of $1.75 million expenditure on taxpayers next

[31:24] year. U if we do not move forward with the consolidation uh next year as has

[31:29] been indicated. Who would be responsible for protecting the uh forest the

[31:35] heartlands the federal federal lands around the area? Is there

[31:41] particular fire force that covers these areas as we are you know very right as

[31:46] you say right at the top. So um usually there's a somebody has an economical

[31:52] benefit for providing service to cover these federal lands. Yeah.

[31:58] » Wondering who what is what? >> Great question.

[32:01] » What's who would be covering that and what is the cost?

[32:05] » Yeah. So there will be no change to any lands like that. We do have an agreement

[32:08] with the Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry um to cover those. So if

[32:12] there's an incident uh such as wildfire in the location, we would collectively

[32:17] respond the location. We'd be the first aid department. um our fire apparatus

[32:21] crews and officer in charge would contact the ministry. Um and then they

[32:25] would be making a decision based on if they're going to respond to that or not.

[32:28] And if they do, it would be a collective effort to extinguish that fire. Um they

[32:32] may take over the fire if it's u outside of Highland scope or they may ask that

[32:36] we remain on scene uh to assist with that. So those lands would continue to

[32:40] be protested um at the same level um in in coordination with the ministry. Great

[32:45] question. Thank you. It might be a little bit of death, but going back to

[32:48] what Tracy said, does it not make more sense to keep a fire at all open until

[32:52] you get >> Yeah. Again, I'll go back to um fiscal

[32:58] responsibility. how much it's going to cost by new apparatus and everything at

[33:03] that point. But

[33:06] until something is there to replace it, does it not make more sense to keep it

[33:10] open what the existing is, even if it isn't correct to the new program that

[33:17] you guys are doing? >> Again, we're looking at, you know, my

[33:20] job as fire chief is to manage our resources and the fiscal responsibility

[33:25] for the taxpayers of L Islands. Um and that is dubbed by long-term planning,

[33:29] asset manure plans, which are ongoing right now. and the fiscal responsibility

[33:33] of replacing two apparatus um in one year which we um basically cannot afford

[33:39] at this present day um would put a substantial burden on the taxpayers of

[33:43] lantern islands um if we were to just not close that fire hall now and

[33:47] consolidate it with station two um you'd be seeing like an upwards of $2 million

[33:51] additional um tax levy uh as soon as next year on all residents for Atlantic

[33:55] Islands >> and and how about the cost of the uh the

[33:59] new firefalls >> what what is the cost of the new fire

[34:02] halls. >> That's a great question as well. So

[34:05] again, we're in the middle of the asset management plan and we're going to get

[34:07] into questions like we have lots of time to go over questions. Um we're in the

[34:11] middle of an asset management plan that's ongoing right now and these are

[34:14] all decisions that are based on that and we have another component is a building

[34:18] condition assessment. So as you can imagine, Atlantic Highlands has

[34:20] substantial assets in buildings throughout the Highlands. So what this

[34:24] plan is going to do is going to lay out the condition of these buildings, where

[34:28] we'll move going forward, and that allows Highlands residents to plan for

[34:32] the future and not bear significant financial costs uh if we're not planning

[34:36] adequately for the future. Yeah, that that didn't answer the question though

[34:40] because you must have a at some kind of idea of the cost of the new firefalls

[34:50] in comparison to the 1.75 million to refurbish the ones that are there. Yep.

[34:57] that you know are are serving the you know

[35:02] serving the the area and to you know if you don't have the money for that how

[35:09] can you have the money well you haven't told me how much you buyer house cost so

[35:15] um there is where that money comes from and then it sounds like

[35:21] there's no date or or

[35:26] nobody Nobody seems to know when the fire halls are going to be built up. So

[35:31] we could be out without any fire hall at all for what two three four years

[35:38] period. >> Yeah. So I'm going to try and answer

[35:41] that to the best of my ability. It was quite lengthy. Um so in regards to the

[35:46] fire halls as these our consultants have alluded to our response force is not yes

[35:52] the the fire hall is consolidating but the response and the effective response

[35:57] that you guys are receiving is still going to be there. Um and again when it

[36:01] comes to the cost of the new station it's not just looking at the cost of

[36:04] that new station. The existing infrastructure we have throughout house

[36:07] from station one through station 4 there's significant health and safety

[36:11] risks that we have to address. So there's going to be sign significant

[36:14] costs to remain status quo as well and as our consultants have alluded to um

[36:19] there are significant cost that goes along with retrofit. Um but these will

[36:23] be discussed through our manner plan with council um with the incoming

[36:26] council that will be um on board next October. Um these are um very major

[36:33] milestones and projects for lands as a whole. Um so these are decisions you

[36:38] don't want to rush and you know build something just because we feel we need

[36:41] it. um station two consolidation with Ford will adequately address our

[36:47] response for now and then we will be addressing our infrastructure for the

[36:52] buildings and just just to give you some comfort um in a volunteer model

[36:58] the location of the building is not the essential piece to your response the

[37:04] there is a lot of discussion about shoot time and turnout time that depends on

[37:07] where your volunteers are coming from and also the pool of your volunteers So

[37:12] if you have more people available, like more people in your pool of responding

[37:16] volunteers, chances are you're going to have people show up sooner. So actually

[37:20] by taking the two pools of our fire hall 4 and our fire hall 2 and having them

[37:24] respond together, you are likely to get a very similar if not possibly improved

[37:29] at times um response to your actual door. So please keep in mind like the

[37:34] closure of a building is not the closure of a fire department. We are still um a

[37:40] volunteer department dedicated to uh to responding effectively. Um just a little

[37:45] piece on the costing part. Although we don't have specific numbers on a

[37:49] station, one new I think the concept is one new station um is expected to cost

[37:55] less. Uh so we'd come down to the point where we have three

[38:00] uh good condition fire halls instead of where we began with five fireh halls

[38:06] that all need a substantial amount of work and five fireh halls that all need

[38:10] a pumper, a tanker, a rescue apparatus to move individuals around. Being able

[38:16] to do that from three fire stations allows less capital costs on the

[38:20] facilities as well as fewer apparatus to purchase and maintain. and that the

[38:25] costs of apparatus have driven up very very quickly and very aggressively since

[38:31] 2020. So that's just to give a a concept. It's more the scale and the

[38:35] number of of items that we're replacing. Yes, they are still high ticket costly

[38:39] items that we have to manage, but at least there's fewer of them to try to to

[38:44] deal with. >> But the master fire plan said that the

[38:47] Middle Hall was inadequate to meet today's standards and all that sort of

[38:52] thing. And then if you go a little bit further in the in the that document said

[38:57] that the Tatlock Hall still had 20 years of life left in it. So have we

[39:02] considered moving station two to amalgamate station 4 take advantage of

[39:08] the municipal garage down there for storage. Has that been looked at? Great

[39:12] question. I appreciate that. So we have looked at all scenarios. Have you looked

[39:17] at that one? >> And I I believe it's going to answer the

[39:19] question. Thank you. >> Okay. Um,

[39:22] we've looked at our personnel mapping um, and where our firefighters reside

[39:27] and I think, you know, by showing the shoe time on the station for response

[39:32] right now, um, in the 10 minutes, those trucks aren't checking out. Um, so it is

[39:37] not beneficial in the long term to consolidate those two stations at a

[39:42] location where no trucks are responding within 10 minutes, where we already have

[39:46] those trucks staffed with personnel that are ready to make an effective task

[39:50] force upon their arrive from the combined station two which is going to

[39:55] have more than 30 firefighters to go to that one station.

[39:58] » So I do understand that but maybe back to this other person's question about um

[40:03] finding why are we amalgamating now we don't have all been and the middle build

[40:10] um firewalls to my understanding has like got 25 different efficiencies that

[40:15] need to be brought up to code. Um, so why are we doing that now?

[40:19] » Great question as well. I think if you look through that, there's numerous

[40:24] deficiencies at every station. >> Um, and a significant risk for the fire

[40:30] service. Um, and I think that allowed us with our priorities on moving forward

[40:36] how we're going to manage these infrastructure uh, decisions. And again,

[40:39] we're at a great point right now where we're doing building condition

[40:41] assessment. And since the master pipeline, we made great strides on some

[40:46] of our firefighter um contamination decontamination policies um in station

[40:52] what we're doing to cleanse those. So I think you know there is deficiencies and

[40:56] you do know we're going to outroll that station. Um but again it comes back to

[41:00] our fleet uh costing and that's an immediate uh tomorrow expense if we do

[41:05] not move forward with the recommendation of the master fire plan which was

[41:08] endorsed by council in 21. >> Yeah. But in combining station two and

[41:15] station 4, if their fleet is up to date more than station two's fleet, would it

[41:24] or station 4's fleet, would it not make sense to combine them into station 4

[41:29] than station two when station 4 is at higher

[41:35] » patterns than station two? >> If we could layer those. So the the

[41:39] driver on timing is the fleet and the the fleet changes. The driver on

[41:44] geography are our volunteers and their historic response times. How fast they

[41:49] are able to get to the station, who's turning out, who's showing up, who's

[41:52] available for daytime calls, uh the numbers of volunteers we're getting.

[41:56] Those numbers are higher in the station 2 area than we've been able to achieve

[42:01] in the station 4 area. So that's if we can think about those in in two

[42:04] different pieces. If >> I could just finish the the last

[42:07] scenario that we're talking about when we're proposing about having that

[42:11] station built to be very close to here. U you could see the effect overall on

[42:18] the protection of not only the citizens, not only the high-risisk areas, but also

[42:23] the firefighters. It it's got the best effective response force numbers. And

[42:29] again, those numbers were all based on what's the average number of

[42:32] firefighters that show up to a call. Okay? So, you take those from all the

[42:37] stations and you converge them. Station 4, for instance, that you talk about,

[42:41] there's not sufficient number of volunteers that live there. So, moving a

[42:46] station up there would take 10 minutes or 20 minutes to get to the station and

[42:50] then back to where those firefighters come from. So, and also there's nothing

[42:56] worse in the fire service. one or two firefighters arriving at a fire all by

[43:01] themselves, not prepared, ready to go because they haven't got the ability to

[43:06] to to dawn and their protective equipment as they're driving to the

[43:10] call. So those things have to be taken into consideration because you don't

[43:14] want to put them in harm or uh you know for these for those types of calls. You

[43:20] need to be able to have sufficient resources fighting the fire together or

[43:26] even in in a timely air factor where the it's

[43:30] just as those first firefighters are getting exhausted, the second

[43:33] firefighters are showing up to relieve them so that we can, you know, you can

[43:38] get to a place where you could be more strategic and less reactive. So these

[43:44] that this model and we had to we put them in boards because it's kind of hard

[43:48] to be jumping from one to another to another, you know, but you can come up

[43:53] and see these boards. >> Sure. and uh and and take a look at them

[43:57] a little closer. But now you understand hopefully that the areas where they

[44:03] overlap is the areas that best protected not only for the citizens but for the

[44:09] firefighters themselves. So um

[44:14] take please take that into consideration when you're looking at the maps.

[44:19] » But we are no longer volunteers. Everybody has to now apply

[44:25] to the township to become a firefighter and then they place them where they feel

[44:32] is needed. So because they're planning on closing station 4, they don't place

[44:39] them in station 4. So there again, it's not a volunteer.

[44:47] They have to apply. They have to pass tests.

[44:51] not volunteer anymore. >> Thanks, Tracy. And that's exactly why

[44:54] this slates campaign we did, we did campaign.

[44:57] » The numbers are not accurate at all. >> And that's why when we did our previous

[45:02] hire for this year, it's a great point. I mean, they're not volunteers. These

[45:06] are paid part-time firefighters. And that's what we did advertise as um and

[45:11] placed everywhere we were planning on posing.

[45:14] » Yeah. >> So, yeah. their volunteers. I want to

[45:17] give you accurate numbers because they're not volunteers. They're being

[45:22] placed where

[45:26] » how many were placed in town. >> I'm just wondering where you bought that

[45:29] information. As a fire chief, um I do receive the applications. Um I take your

[45:35] address where you reside. I enter it into Google Maps. I populate it to the

[45:40] two closest fire stations and you were placed at the fire station that is

[45:43] closest to you. Um I I haven't found a system that works better than that yet.

[45:47] I mean I am very open if there's a better way to do that. Um in the past I

[45:51] can't answer what the previous fire chiefs have done to be completely honest

[45:54] in my two years as chief that is consistent with how my hiring has been

[45:57] occurring. Um we complete campaigns. We do it as one on boarding a and there's

[46:02] significant risk that goes along with hiring. We have to make sure certain

[46:05] clearances are met, physical conditions are met, medicals are completed. There's

[46:09] substantial paperwork that has to be checked. It's not just unfortunately in

[46:13] the old days when we started with these fire stations of signing a piece of

[46:16] paper and jumping on board. There's many more hoops go through and Lannard

[46:21] Highlands is probably more lax than a lot of part-time fire departments are to

[46:26] be completely on on our on boarding because we do have such an issue with

[46:31] recruitment or retention. Um so I can assure you that I'm not placing

[46:35] firefighters at you know from Catwalk and Lar Village. That's not occurring.

[46:38] uh it's based on where you reside and what fire station you're closest to.

[46:42] » But you're you're right, the the term volunteer is a historic term that goes

[46:46] back way in time when people truly were volunteers and nowadays they are paid

[46:51] employees. It's it's not a lot of money, especially not for the amount of

[46:54] training and work that it takes. There is still a large commitment to that that

[46:58] is people's heart and soul that are going into it. Um but in Ontario and in

[47:03] the industry, the way that the very strong professional firefighters union

[47:08] works, um our term for them needs to be volunteer firefighters. It can't be

[47:13] part-time uh firefighters. It's just the that's the terminology in the industry.

[47:20] » Let me let me see if I've got this straight. You're giving it you're giving

[47:24] us uh two B and 2C scenarios of fire stations that are going to be built long

[47:31] after I'm dead. And so you're moving,

[47:38] you're closing station four or amalgamating station four with station

[47:43] two because you can't afford to buy a new pumper and a new tank.

[47:48] And what we're going to end up with is is the firefighters

[47:54] working out of station two with one less pumper and one less tanker than we have

[48:00] now. Is that correct?

[48:04] » Yeah. No. So, so the scope of the work that we did was to ensure that we would

[48:11] have enough firefighters within the area that we've shown on the maps. The

[48:17] closure of station four, the amalgamation

[48:20] of station two was to ensure two things. One, um the municipality or the township

[48:28] is is is got a big package over its head in terms of building conditions for all

[48:34] their fire halls. They've been uh recommended in the

[48:38] previous fire master plan to go to a three-station model which will be more

[48:42] effective by being able to strategically basically

[48:49] stay with me because I'm I'm getting to the point here

[48:51] » strategically locate them in the right area.

[48:54] » So, a couple things will evolve out of that. Number one, um there will be a

[48:59] reassessment of the type of vehicles that have to be purchased. There is of

[49:05] um insurance coverage and fire underwriter surveys that have to be

[49:09] addressed to ensure that the chief has the resources to keep trucks running.

[49:15] And under the legislation, you can only run them for so long. And so new trucks

[49:19] come along. Yes, we talked about higher costs. That's a given for any fire

[49:23] department across Ontario. They're astronomical. More importantly, as I

[49:27] said at the very beginning, they're larger, they're taller, they're wider,

[49:32] they are difficult to put into a lot of existing facilities. So, the option to

[49:36] be able to create a new station to attract uh maybe more volunteers to a

[49:42] new area in a new facility to house specific tankers or pumpers in that

[49:47] facility of a larger size so that the trucks that get out on the road can

[49:53] perform higher duties, more work than the current status. So, we'll have more

[49:59] more pump tanks or more tankers that would be out on the road, which would

[50:03] allow the chief to be able to utilize that factor to get trucks to a location

[50:10] with more volume. And the the byproduct of all of that, and I'm talking down the

[50:16] road, hopefully not too far down the road because I'd like you to see it. The

[50:21] fact of the matter is is that having a larger truck doesn't just mitigate the

[50:27] fact that it can't fit in a fire hole. The truck is actually serving a higher

[50:30] purpose and that is it's being able to bring more water to the site for

[50:35] firefighter safety and for protection of the residents. But more importantly, it

[50:39] allows the chief in the coming years to look at what's called a fire underwriter

[50:44] survey and a superior tanker shuttle survey to say to the residents of

[50:49] Atlanta Highlands, we have an accreditation or we're working toward an

[50:54] accreditation because we've now increased the number of trucks that we

[50:58] have uh that are more useful within the scope of this plan.

[51:04] that maybe the rates for insurance purposes and maybe the rates for higher

[51:08] underwriters survey can be recognized by giving a designation to the to land

[51:14] islands for um superior tanker shuttle service and fire underwriters. These are

[51:20] both things that the chief has to be well aware of because if you don't have

[51:25] some kind of coverage under your insurance portfolio uh and you end up

[51:29] running vehicles that that don't have insurance, it exposes the municipality

[51:34] massive liabilities. So going forward in the plan, our role was to look at

[51:40] ensuring that we could get same number or relative number of firefighters to a

[51:45] fire scene to protect the fire scene to protect the firefighters. But more

[51:49] importantly, consolidating some of the vehicles, make them larger vehicles to

[51:54] improve the service down the road. It's not going to happen next week. It's not

[51:58] going to happen next year. This is a multi-year plan. When the first fire

[52:02] master plan came out, like typically the fire master plans that we've done for so

[52:07] many municipalities are basically a 5 to 10 year window in order to provide the

[52:12] fire chief with a vision to allow the CEO to budget accordingly over the next

[52:18] 5 to 10 years uh the type of resources that they're going to require whether

[52:23] that be new tankers, new pumper tankers, new PPE, uh whatever it may be their

[52:30] forecasting model has to be somewhat accurate. And so in order to get to that

[52:34] point, it's important that they look at a consolidation model,

[52:40] still have the same coverage. A relocated station allows you to still

[52:45] provide that coverage as Jerry put on the maps up on the board, but at a

[52:50] better cost and better service to the to the community.

[52:53] » That's that's all very fine. That's all that's all very fine and good,

[52:58] » but that's all in the future and and and you know, it'll be years and years and

[53:03] years in the future. We're building a new fire station in McDonald's corners

[53:06] and and that's been an ongoing thing for years. What we're here tonight to talk

[53:11] about is is annoying station two with station 4. And what you've been saying,

[53:18] what you've just said has nothing to do with that. uh because uh and from what I

[53:23] can see, the only reason that we're closing fire station 4 and and putting

[53:29] the pumps in fire station two is because they can't afford to buy a new pump, new

[53:33] pumper and a new tanker. They can't report afford to replace equip. Now, is

[53:38] is does station two uh have a better uh air quality and and and any other stuff

[53:48] that you were talking about earlier in the evening or is it as as bad as

[53:53] station four? >> So, to to answer and elaborate um on

[53:59] Chris's point there. So, we have taken boards of council. I mean, fleet is only

[54:03] one one component of this. Um the most important metric that matters to myself

[54:08] the consultants CEO and council is the firefighters health and safety and

[54:13] wellbeing. Um and when you look at >> the public

[54:17] » if you look pardon >> the public

[54:20] » and the coverage >> for sure and that's that's what we have

[54:24] done there. >> Jerry is it possible to show the

[54:27] existing stations and their coverage and do you have the ability to turn on and

[54:31] off stations? I just wondered if but to my point the fleet replacement plan that

[54:37] we have so on consolidation we are reducing our fleet capital cost by three

[54:41] apparatus and we're increasing our water carrying capability by 33%. So if you

[54:46] look at that that is a huge improvement for taxpayers landed highlands with less

[54:50] cost but an increase where we're actually going to be able to have our

[54:54] tank accreditation >> going to go up

[54:57] » which is going to be have huge benefits on the tax on the insurance rate for

[55:02] individuals. I understand this you know >> cost that at this time like the earlier

[55:08] gentleman said is really not necessary. I mean what's the cost to hire your

[55:13] consulting fee the uh CEO's time I mean how is it what's the cost benefit factor

[55:23] here for us >> and again back to

[55:26] » the tax legislation >> that it seems to me that you're driving

[55:31] people away from enjoying their summers from u coming up into an area that is

[55:37] full of tourists. There's a higher risk of fires across Canada and the forests

[55:42] around here are quite literally capable of catching fire at any time.

[55:48] » So I don't see the the benefit of changing anything at this particular

[55:53] moment. There's pressure on the people's dollar. There's high there's high

[55:57] unemployment and you're you're putting taxes increasing

[56:02] our debt vote when when this country is already struggling.

[56:09] I I was just to respond to that, you know, and your points are quite valid

[56:12] about increasing candidates debt. >> I mean,

[56:15] » but if you don't take any if you don't take any provision like the chief and

[56:20] the CEO is are working on if you don't make that move,

[56:24] » you're going to be strapped with excessive costs based on what you have

[56:29] right now. And so the plan moving forward,

[56:32] » have we done the broad >> the plan? The plan, the plan moving

[56:35] forward is to look strategically at what is the best option for the municipality

[56:41] to ensure that they don't skyrocket taxes and they still protect the

[56:46] citizens and by looking at the the maps that that

[56:50] » I would ask another question is like >> I would I would ask respectfully sir I

[56:56] would ask that you let me finish okay >> before you move into another question

[57:00] but we had a we had a question about putting up a fresh that. But one of the

[57:04] concerns that you would have is, and you may not see this because you're not the

[57:09] fire chief, but one of the concerns that you have is, yes, new trucks are

[57:14] expensive, but B, the new trucks might not even fit in your existing fires,

[57:19] right? >> And your building condition assessment

[57:22] in all your fire halls is is going to be a large cost as well. And so having a

[57:29] vision to look ahead by consolidating a couple of stations while still providing

[57:33] the protection allows the municipality to keep their cost under control.

[57:39] I would ask additionally

[57:46] council has done or and your consulting company have done a broad scan

[57:53] of the strategic partners in the coverage areas. the the cause and

[58:00] effect. For example, how would this impact the time to get a person to a

[58:06] hospital and you know life's being at at stake in

[58:11] essence? I mean, we've had we have a great fire chief. He served this area

[58:16] very well under the harshest of conditions and I applaud him if he's

[58:21] present here tonight. Um I don't see a costbenefit ratio. I just don't

[58:30] » and I guess that's what the purpose of tonight is to try to relay everybody in

[58:33] this room >> that this is the the cost effective

[58:36] model and that it is complicated uh and there are a lot of moving parts

[58:40] » is not complex >> but I think even there's more than

[58:44] financial. So we've taken and numerous consultants have taken um whether it's

[58:49] five patient, seventh patient models. We're not just looking at cost. We're

[58:52] also looking at call volume um demographics of where our calls are and

[58:57] we have substantial data showing where our calls are populated over the past

[59:01] 10, 15, 20 years and they are consistent in you know the other three stations the

[59:07] call volume is substantial. Um station four members have done a tremendous job

[59:11] and they are amazing firefighters don't get me wrong. the call volume is

[59:15] certainly less there and there's a higher medical side and that as chief

[59:19] that's why I'm having meetings with the paramedic service and Ler County trying

[59:23] to address the medical side because that's what an issue is in in this

[59:28] really remote area is medical that's a major concern of mine and I'm sure it is

[59:33] of many taxpayers that are sitting in this room

[59:36] » and that is why I am working with county paramedics to make sure we get a better

[59:40] service for you guys than what you're currently getting

[59:43] » lens fire. We're on a tiered program. So, I'm sitting here tonight, I could

[59:48] fall down from a heart attack and every single volunteer firefighter here. We

[59:52] may never know and get a call for that. Okay? It's all tiered based on time. We

[59:57] have no control. So, if you're you live beside Tal Fire Station and you go down,

[1:00:02] the fire trucks and firefighters will never know potentially the word. It's

[1:00:06] all based on a system. It's not automatic tier. So, there's conditions

[1:00:10] of greater 20 minutes. And so that's just a misconception I think that's out

[1:00:14] there. And that's why I want to improve it and make it so that there's programs

[1:00:17] in place such as neighbors saving neighbors that would be very beneficial

[1:00:21] for rarely remote areas such as Tatwa and Clyde Horse where you could have

[1:00:25] members on scene in minutes to save you with that a provided by Leonard County.

[1:00:30] That's not out of ler islands taxpayers money. So those are things that we're

[1:00:33] looking at with Ler County and we fully support. So there's a lot of things that

[1:00:38] we're trying to do and medical is a very valid thing. That is station four's

[1:00:41] highest call volume and that's why I'm doing it myself to make sure we're

[1:00:45] looking at what's going to work best for the residents of Tablock to make sure

[1:00:48] they're probably invalidation. >> And and where you live and where you

[1:00:52] sleep is where you personally are at the greatest fire risk. Okay. Yes, the

[1:00:58] forest area could have a forest fire, but there typically that isn't going to

[1:01:04] impact the individuals in this room, at least not immediately. But being in your

[1:01:08] own house and in your own bed when you're sleeping, is when you're most at

[1:01:12] risk for fire. And your best defense is to have a working smoke alarm on every

[1:01:16] level of your home and to be able to find your way out of your home

[1:01:21] efficiently and fast. That's having a home escape plan, knowing where you're

[1:01:24] going, um, and getting yourself out. And that counts for um a homeowner in

[1:01:29] downtown Toronto with a full-time fire service built to the nines that costs

[1:01:34] millions and millions of dollars. Same thing. That individual will be uh

[1:01:39] protecting their own safety with a working smoke alarm and a home escape

[1:01:42] plan. So, if I can kind of preach anything with this, it's please, please,

[1:01:46] please make sure that those pieces, and I would say this to any Lannarch

[1:01:50] Highlands resident, no matter where our fire station is or where our volunteers

[1:01:54] are, please have working smoke alarms and review and practice a home escape

[1:01:59] plan. And that is what is going to save your lives at the end of the day.

[1:02:04] » Get off that soap box, but that's very, very important to me because I know that

[1:02:07] will make an impact by building that hall as a community.

[1:02:11] That hall will not save your life. A working smoke alarm will.

[1:02:15] » That hall has saved many lives. >> That hall is a building.

[1:02:18] » That hall is a building. The individuals who are our our fire response are the

[1:02:24] ones that are able to help you put out the fire, maintain the fire of your

[1:02:28] structure. >> Yes.

[1:02:29] » And your home and your house. >> But um we just we can't get you can't

[1:02:34] get to a person in a minute or less. And that's when you're you could possibly

[1:02:39] perish in a fire in in less than four minutes. And there is no volunteer

[1:02:43] service in Ontario that is going to be able to get to your house in less than

[1:02:46] four minutes or anyone's house in less than four minutes.

[1:02:49] » Can I speak to that? Can I speak to that?

[1:02:50] » Please do. Yeah. >> You guys all talked about shoe times

[1:02:55] from off 10 or 12 minutes. I had a fire myself

[1:03:01] » right around the corner and was Michelle the wife from the shooting and another

[1:03:09] guy came within minutes >> and saved my place thank Michelle

[1:03:14] » that is excellent do you know how >> so I don't believe in the credibility of

[1:03:18] your study at all >> how long it took

[1:03:22] our fire department has a full compliment you have to speak to that

[1:03:25] date And they've done an excellent job for

[1:03:29] years and years and years. >> I think to give Michelle's credit, she

[1:03:33] certainly did a fabulous job. I I was I was in the second in apparatus from my

[1:03:37] village for that fire. >> Sure.

[1:03:38] » I was in the second in apparatus from village um the day the fire and

[1:03:42] » Michelle certainly did a great job. Unfortunately, she was by herself. Um

[1:03:45] which is a substantial risk to Michelle's safety and the liability for

[1:03:50] Atlantic Highlands as a whole. Um what these gentlemen have talked about is an

[1:03:55] effective response force. Well, she was with another guy and then within minutes

[1:03:59] other people showed up to us but I don't know how many people were there after

[1:04:02] because I had that kind of bleeding. >> I'm pleased that you thought that was it

[1:04:08] was standing response because it was and I'm pleased that that second end

[1:04:11] apparatus from Lance Village was one of those ones you thought was coming from

[1:04:15] Tadwalk which is amazing and that's what we're getting to with this whole thing.

[1:04:18] So the system that we're putting in place that is telling me that works that

[1:04:22] that's exactly what your story >> I'm just saying myself

[1:04:25] » Michelle saved my life not you guys Michelle right here and the

[1:04:30] other guys showed up >> stand up stand up

[1:04:42] but this we are we do bases on average, right?

[1:04:48] So, you're going to have the lower ones, you're going to have the higher ones,

[1:04:51] and it comes to an average up. So, the the data we had was was very good, and I

[1:04:56] I stand behind those numbers because and then, of course, the the analytics in

[1:05:02] this program basics on them. So there's a

[1:05:08] an example of 2B, the the station two. That's there's property owned by the

[1:05:14] municipality. That would be 2B. And that's the that's how much

[1:05:20] » in in 20 minutes. >> And where is Tatlo?

[1:05:28] » Is it in the green area at all? >> Right there.

[1:05:32] » All of Tatlock's in that green area. >> No. No, exactly.

[1:05:36] » Not all the cat stations. >> So the ones that are out of it, forget

[1:05:40] it. >> So again, back to um the the great map

[1:05:44] that these gentlemen are showing about effective task force response that we

[1:05:48] keep going back to in that area. You guys u are averaging three firefighters.

[1:05:53] So essentially we cannot make an entry with three firefighters. It is

[1:05:56] impossible to make an entry with three firefighters. The safety. So with the

[1:06:01] map that they were showing what could be you guys are up to the 12 firefighters

[1:06:04] in that response area. We can do an effective fast attack and knock down a

[1:06:08] fire with 12 firefighters. We cannot do that with less than three parts safely.

[1:06:13] » Maybe you should place more firefighters up here

[1:06:17] » because it's not volunteer anymore.

[1:06:21] » I I will say this publicly. I am going to be recruiting if anybody wants to

[1:06:24] join the fire service. I'm more than happy. Currently, we're not

[1:06:29] » want to join a fire service that their station is closing.

[1:06:33] » Exactly. >> You just don't understand that. Same

[1:06:35] thing happened in White Lake. It went down to little to none firefighters

[1:06:40] because nobody's going to join a fire station that is closing.

[1:06:45] » And I think to your point, one of the benefits we have

[1:06:48] » all the training >> is the recruitment. The amount of

[1:06:51] recruitment that a new fire station will bring to the township will be

[1:06:54] substantial. I I will put my word on it. If we do have a new fire station, that

[1:06:59] is going to draw recruitment. Most certainly.

[1:07:01] » Maybe we should get that first though. It's the whole issue.

[1:07:07] Let's close it down and have no protection for what, five to 10 years.

[1:07:12] That's a lot of years. I >> I appreciate your point, Tracy. I think

[1:07:16] we've went over this quite a few times. Uh and we haven't even finished our

[1:07:20] presentation to be quite honest. Um, but I mean we're trying to demonstrate that

[1:07:25] the response is still there for the residents of Tawa. That that is the key

[1:07:29] message of this whole thing and when we're looking at this and and the data

[1:07:33] that's in the GIS that we're working with that is reassuring that this is a

[1:07:39] good decision for the long-term stability for townships and staff

[1:07:44] service. Could you show me the map where station four's coverage from say Midal

[1:07:51] and Lannarch's response to stations two coverage from say station four and

[1:07:58] Lannarch's response? And let's see the difference.

[1:08:03] » I'm not sure what you're asking. This one here

[1:08:06] » wants to know how the response times are to cover the areas of station middle

[1:08:12] station compared to the average of covering

[1:08:17] Tatlock station by the surrounding because you've got three stations

[1:08:23] remaining open in the south part of the township leaving the northern part of

[1:08:29] the township with none. One of the very important aspects of that, if we're

[1:08:34] looking at a 20 minute um response, um if we're looking at 20-minute

[1:08:39] response, your three stations, two stations are on main corridors. If you

[1:08:43] look at station two and station one, they're on main corridors that are

[1:08:46] county um roads, which give them a tremendous response advantage. Um, when

[1:08:51] we're looking at 20 minutes, that lock station is at about 9 and a half minutes

[1:08:55] out of the station 20 minutes, whereas your other stations are in the ballpark

[1:08:59] at 16 minutes on the road at that point. So, those are staggering, very important

[1:09:04] numbers that again help drive this decision. So, I think I kind of

[1:09:08] understand what you're saying, but the other stations right now with their

[1:09:12] shoot times, they're they're on the road for long times ahead. And then Donalders

[1:09:18] and Lard are five 10 minutes away from each other

[1:09:23] and their coverage for Tatlock would be what 30 minutes.

[1:09:28] » Not at all. >> Be pretty close by the time firefighters

[1:09:32] get pa get to the hall and get to Tatlock is where the fire is.

[1:09:37] » I I would applaud this because I think that goes hand in hand with the

[1:09:39] gentleman and kudos to Michelle or great work there. Um, but again what I what I

[1:09:44] just stated is I responded from Planner Village to this gentleman's house which

[1:09:47] is just behind us here and I was there as they were putting agent applied. So

[1:09:53] that's telling me that that's a terrific response time. Um, so it's not 30

[1:09:57] minutes. You're 15 minutes um is what your response is. And I mean that's

[1:10:02] » on a night like tonight it would be 15 minutes guaranteed. I

[1:10:06] » mean you could put all sorts of in there. You could do it on a holiday

[1:10:09] week. You can do it on a holiday weekend in July where volunteer firefighters may

[1:10:14] be away somewhere vacationing with their families. There are multiple multiple

[1:10:18] scenarios you could throw out today. But what we're trying to get across is the

[1:10:22] numbers that we crunched show that there is an effective response force being

[1:10:27] able to populate the area. And there's always the one-offs. You know, uh

[1:10:32] Michelle, I don't know you, but I mean maybe you were busy that night and were

[1:10:36] out. What would have happened? Well, the Chief would have been the first vehicle

[1:10:40] there from Lannard Village. So, we don't want to get into the whatifs or the

[1:10:44] one-offs in terms of the exercise here. The exercise for us was to look at the

[1:10:49] mapping and show what kind of people can what kind of vehicles and people can we

[1:10:54] get to the region effectively from the station models that we have in front of

[1:10:59] us. from what was put up earlier and are

[1:11:02] still on the maps in front of us up here on the cardboard maps show that there is

[1:11:06] an effective response force that can apply. Um I I can't deal in oneoffs

[1:11:11] because it it's just uh it's not practical. The practical thing is to go

[1:11:16] with the historic data that the chief provided to us to say here's what has

[1:11:21] historically happened. And yes, there's always going to be a one-off. I mean,

[1:11:26] I've been a a volunteer firefighter for 25 years, and there were nights where

[1:11:31] five people showed up and there were nights where nobody showed up. But we

[1:11:35] don't dwell on the fact that there's the nights for nobody show up. We dwell on

[1:11:39] the fact is what's our average response like and what what what protection are

[1:11:43] we providing? And based on the maps that that Jerry put up earlier and the ones

[1:11:49] that are up front here show that there is still an effective response force

[1:11:52] available for the community. >> So so this map itself my my

[1:11:56] understanding correct me if I get any of this wrong. Um I did do this kind of

[1:12:00] work for about 18 years prior to being the CEO. So I know a little bit about uh

[1:12:05] but this is a 20 minute response time map. The green areas are from your

[1:12:09] existing station too. No, that's the proposed

[1:12:12] » or very close to it. >> Very close.

[1:12:15] » So I would consider that to be a good representation of where what we're

[1:12:19] seeing today from station two >> and at the same time frame station 4

[1:12:24] would cover those that other area which very very small

[1:12:28] » that is the 20 minute response coverage that we're able to achieve today based

[1:12:32] on uh numerous years of of our emergency call data with station 4. So, what we're

[1:12:38] talking about is between today or between the closure of station 4 to when

[1:12:43] the station 2C location could be built. This is the coverage we're able to

[1:12:48] achieve. Um, so I hope you can recognize that we're talking about a a fairly

[1:12:54] small area change if you remove the pink area that we're still covering within

[1:13:00] the green area in that 20 minutes. >> Where do you live? You live in a pink

[1:13:04] area. I was going to say how would you like living in that pink area? I would I

[1:13:09] would be completely comfortable living in that pink area with working smoke

[1:13:13] alarms in that pink area

[1:13:16] » and you pink area

[1:13:22] would you be okay with this >> cuz you are sitting there snickering

[1:13:26] through the whole thing >> out of your face

[1:13:34] is not accurate and that I know we got an email, not a page, an email for

[1:13:41] firefighters to go help fight a force fight. So that did not go through

[1:13:46] dispatch, did it? >> So obviously the numbers

[1:13:51] » dispatch. This isn't dispatch is a different discussion. That is not that

[1:13:56] » disatch that email came from. >> It doesn't matter. So you pay close

[1:13:59] attention to or the same. I'm just saying look at the gain and what you're

[1:14:04] that little pink triangle we're talking. I know but that's where we live son

[1:14:10] step in and rebut like >> and

[1:14:14] being saved as soon as this hall close I'm going to impact and I'm getting my

[1:14:19] taxes reduced because of it >> so

[1:14:24] they have closed everything up here >> we have no services

[1:14:29] » I think so this here represents the current station two and four the

[1:14:35] coverage that they have in Yes,

[1:14:41] » I just I I'm not so sandy, but I just don't agree with the 20 minute coverage.

[1:14:46] » Years and years to drive 20 minutes gets us up almost the border.

[1:14:50] » It's not a 20-minute travel time. Sorry to just

[1:14:53] » I'ming

[1:14:56] my family are not allowed to say anything. The township does not allow

[1:15:01] them to say >> and it's about time everybody Excuse me.

[1:15:06] Tracy, did you allow one of your employees to go on Facebook and say

[1:15:09] stuff about your business? >> They have.

[1:15:12] » Well, >> that's out of my control. So,

[1:15:16] » you know what? They're classified as volunteers,

[1:15:20] not employees. The minute you guys become full-time employees, then I'll

[1:15:25] understand. But they're volunteers. >> For a health and safety perspective,

[1:15:29] they certainly are volunteers. We are responsible for them. We have insurance

[1:15:32] for them. >> And yet, they're not allowed to not

[1:15:35] uncommon to have a code of conduct for for vol for volunteers or for your

[1:15:39] employees to expect a certain um level of respect that would come from them on

[1:15:45] a social media platform. Again, I believe we're getting very far off topic

[1:15:49] here. One thing I have like to respond to your it was valid question but we'd

[1:15:54] like to explain >> I respect the fact that you said you'd

[1:15:58] be all the way up a certain amount of time

[1:16:01] » but there the border but there are parameters that we had to use based on

[1:16:06] historical data >> people is just so

[1:16:10] » but but I could say too that this you know because we go on the road speeds

[1:16:14] the posted road speeds >> some of the county roads are long and

[1:16:19] you how we get up above the speed or whatever. So if anything uh this this

[1:16:23] we're airing on the side of safety which means the performance is probably better

[1:16:29] than what we're showing >> be conservative works. Yeah, but that

[1:16:32] that is what you're showing though. I always I don't want to get regular. I

[1:16:36] just I just I disagree the 10 minute shoot time. Like I know there are times

[1:16:41] 10 minutes. Yeah, absolutely. But I would say overall I just find it hard

[1:16:45] six seven minutes I could agree with but 10 I just but that's that's just my

[1:16:49] opinion. >> Sure.

[1:16:51] » Sure. And that's talking about one, you know, that's a collective data of all

[1:16:55] response states. I appreciate your input but that's that's all call data that

[1:16:59] we've had last 10 years. That's all collective. I mean the data I provided

[1:17:02] that the data that went with the master fire plan it is consistent data. Uh if

[1:17:06] you look at the times and in both those reports my report to council in the

[1:17:10] summer everything is consistent with with what we provided the consultants

[1:17:13] and what's showing is around the 10 minutes for the past 12 years.

[1:17:19] Is there any effort to u strive to provide the same level of

[1:17:25] service to all residents >> where it cannot be done?

[1:17:31] » I think it can be done at Christ. >> It can't be done.

[1:17:40] » Every municipality has difficulty serving the remote areas.

[1:17:46] It's impossible to put a fire station on The thing is you're concentrating the

[1:17:50] service in the south. >> Yes.

[1:17:53] » You're you're providing service to that cliff and valley

[1:17:57] » with the overlap. >> Well, when you're providing response to

[1:18:01] those areas, which if you moved it up, it it would push them further north.

[1:18:06] » Yeah. But that's not what we're looking at. We're looking we wouldn't

[1:18:09] necessarily respond. I could have not shown those lines below the boundary.

[1:18:13] Those would be on mutual aid if they need us or or anything like that.

[1:18:17] However, what I'm showing with the line moving up and down. It's the number of

[1:18:21] firefighters that we need to be able to put out a fire safely for everybody. So,

[1:18:26] the residents and so where is a more single home on the country road versus

[1:18:33] the LCBO in the in in the village? Which one is going to be harder to put out and

[1:18:39] which one is going to hit per the community the most? And I'm not being

[1:18:42] tried to be funded by the LCBO, but that's a prime example. This community,

[1:18:46] the the all along that.

[1:18:49] » Yeah, you suggest you suggest village art village is really important because

[1:18:54] it's got 384 dwellings. Well, White Lake have 375.

[1:19:00] » No, it's it's not that. It's in White Lake. And if I know these sound just

[1:19:04] like when they're saying smoke detectors say, it's not firefighters.

[1:19:10] A single family a single family home in White Plate is going to burn and that's

[1:19:14] all it's going to burn. maybe the woods around it. By the time everybody gets

[1:19:17] there and puts out the fire, uh, a building on the main street going

[1:19:22] through the village will catch on to the next building, goes catch on to the next

[1:19:26] building. The density of population is is much tighter and therefore higher

[1:19:31] risk. >> So, the province of Ontario in 2018

[1:19:35] rolled out the community risk assessments and now every municipality

[1:19:38] needs to have a risk assessment and that risk assessment takes into account a

[1:19:42] number of things. your demographics, um the geography, uh building stock, how

[1:19:47] closely they're placed, um even emergency and and hazards, um economics,

[1:19:55] it takes into account nine different very uh broad profiles and from that the

[1:20:01] fire department is and the municipality use it as a tool to determine how to

[1:20:06] deliver fire protection services. uh the most important thing and the the thing

[1:20:11] that is mandatory from the province is to provide public education that that is

[1:20:16] the management piece. The providing suppression

[1:20:21] is very open as far as the legislation goes. Um but now we do have this tool.

[1:20:26] So in the case of Lannarch Village, it is a bright red spot on our community

[1:20:31] risk assessment for a number of those different conditions. And then um any of

[1:20:36] our hamlets and builtup areas certainly certainly raise those um conditions. But

[1:20:42] that's what we're trying to do here is is really match what's the community

[1:20:45] risk to what can we provide effectively, efficiently um and within the means of

[1:20:51] the township financially. Um but it we will like there's a trade-off. So, as we

[1:20:58] um manage and make choices about our three-station model, we also have the

[1:21:03] opportunity to uh have a dedicated fire prevention officer or an individual that

[1:21:08] can put that focus into meeting with people, helping people be safe in their

[1:21:13] own homes. So, that first line that first line of defense, um when we said

[1:21:17] that first three lines, like the three lines of defense model, that's where

[1:21:20] we're going to put the effort in. It's it's not, you know, trying to find a a

[1:21:25] fire truck to put on every corner of the municipality because that's just not

[1:21:28] reasonable, not affordable, and it's not going to be the thing that makes the

[1:21:30] important difference saving wise. >> Sure.

[1:21:34] » Speak to the to the >> risk assessment

[1:21:39] to your question later that shows critical infrastructure. So all of these

[1:21:45] stars represent a critical look at the cluster down here. What does that

[1:21:51] represent? Like that 384 dwellings. >> No, it's it's again it's the let's just

[1:21:56] see put on that. That's the public school.

[1:22:00] » Okay. >> Okay. So, there's a public school.

[1:22:02] There's no public school in Lake Health Center.

[1:22:06] » Two schools. Health center. Center. >> Public. Yeah. So, all of these

[1:22:09] represent. So, if you just look at the map again just to kind of show you

[1:22:14] because we're, you know, you were asking how come we're paying attention to

[1:22:23] service station

[1:22:29] » anyway just look at the map there and get out of the way

[1:22:38] » if our if our services are going to decrease though does that

[1:22:41] » that shows you all the critical >> any decrease in our taxes

[1:22:46] » well what's the budget increase >> you know like if we're not going to have

[1:22:49] this service. Do we get a few but you still have the service?

[1:22:53] » Go to Empost everything in Tampa. So go to EMPAT and

[1:22:58] get them to fight your >> you still have a volunteer fire service.

[1:23:01] You still you still call 911 and have a response. Uh you still have public

[1:23:07] education. >> Our our insurance expenses will be going

[1:23:10] up. >> Uh insurance is a complicated process

[1:23:15] touched on it. So it's proprietary. it's done differently by all companies. Um,

[1:23:20] insurance may also be going up because we have ice storms and been more

[1:23:24] snowtorms and colder temperatures earlier that are breaking pipes in

[1:23:28] December instead of January. There's a number of reasons that insurance may

[1:23:32] people invite late that couldn't get insurance because you're supposed to

[1:23:35] fire at home. >> So, what happens then? Because I know

[1:23:39] mortgages on houses now require insurance. So, if you can't get the

[1:23:44] insurance because of no fire coverage, >> that's typically not the case. The the

[1:23:49] issue there and I live in a community uh where I live on the Ottawa River and my

[1:23:56] insurance rate skyrocketed because in 2017 and 2019 the facilities in the area

[1:24:03] flooded. I was fine, right? I was up high enough, built up high enough.

[1:24:08] However, I still had to argue with the insurance carrier to say that this

[1:24:13] doesn't apply to me. Insurance companies typically do a blanket a blanket

[1:24:18] assessment and unless you speak up for yourself to say this doesn't apply to

[1:24:23] me, there's a good chance that you're going to be affected by the insurance

[1:24:26] rates. Um Suzanne said things like wildland fires and ice storms and

[1:24:32] floods, all these things uh will affect your insurance rates. You have to

[1:24:36] monitor it yourself and make sure in terms of this process where we talk

[1:24:41] about u consolidating the two stations and the future availability. So bear

[1:24:47] with me. in future availability of securing maybe larger pump tanks, more

[1:24:52] capacity will allow the fire chief down the road to say to the fire underwriters

[1:24:58] survey, the people that look after insurance carriers across Canada, um, we

[1:25:03] want to attempt to get a fire underwriters certification and a

[1:25:08] superior tanker shuttle accreditation where insurance carriers come up, they

[1:25:13] go with the volunteer firefighters, they assess how many gallons per minute you

[1:25:17] can run over a certain period of time. And if you meet that threshold, the

[1:25:21] community residents benefit because of lower insurance rates because they know

[1:25:26] your effective response force is going to be there in time. Your water supply

[1:25:29] is large enough so that you can apply for uh a a reduction in your rates. And

[1:25:35] most locations, at least in my experience doing this across Ontario,

[1:25:39] most fire chiefs once they assume that status of of a superior tanker shuttle

[1:25:47] are more than pleased to print up a letter to say, "Here's a copy of our

[1:25:52] Superior Tanker Shuttle accreditation. Give that to your insurance carrier and

[1:25:56] you should get a reduction in your home insurance." So there's, as Suzanne said

[1:26:01] earlier, that's only one factor. There are hundreds of mitigating factors and

[1:26:05] we all know what it's like to deal with insurance carriers, but certainly moving

[1:26:08] in this direction, try to consolidate this information uh this uh structure

[1:26:14] and looking down the road to be able to supply larger vehicles to be able to get

[1:26:18] the same number of firefighters to a location to ensure that you can accredit

[1:26:23] yourself for a superior tanker show down the road is definitely a benefit.

[1:26:31] So they look at those the data that the chief has like for shootons and arrival

[1:26:35] time did the insurance companies have access to that is that part of their

[1:26:40] rate setting. So once you

[1:26:43] » companies go to five years down roads 10 years

[1:26:46] » who just finished the one >> so once once you apply to speak to an

[1:26:52] insurance car like the fire underwriters survey association and and superior once

[1:26:58] you walk into that what they're interested in is your your times to get

[1:27:03] your vehicles to a fire and they create a scenario and sometimes they will say

[1:27:09] uh you know on a map here Let's find a place that is quite a distance away and

[1:27:15] can you get two vehicles there within an x amount of time and can you flow un an

[1:27:20] uninrupted flow of water 200 gallons per minute for for two hours.

[1:27:27] » Um then they're happy because you've achieved that rate, right? So they they

[1:27:34] already know when you're asking them, they already know that we're going to

[1:27:38] pick a location to test this out and they typically look for

[1:27:44] locations that are tough to get to within the prescribed time frame. So

[1:27:48] they they they are aware of that information. It's incumbent upon the

[1:27:51] fire chief and the fire department uh to all organize, get together and and and

[1:27:57] do that test run with 200 gallons a minute for for two hours straight. and

[1:28:01] they'll put a flow meter on on the the the hose and tell you exactly whether

[1:28:06] you achieved it or didn't. >> And to your point, Dave, they could

[1:28:10] definitely ask for that information and they can see the shoot times for each

[1:28:13] station and make an appropriate decision based on that shoot time. And I think

[1:28:17] that's kind of >> well in theory is that if you if you

[1:28:20] improve the response time, then the possibility exists you could reduce the

[1:28:25] insurance >> possibility. Yeah. Mark for sure.

[1:28:27] » Yeah. >> My question is if

[1:28:31] Sorry, but I've noticed that you've taken out shoot times, you know, from

[1:28:33] one station to another with regards to when you're illustrating uh travel time.

[1:28:39] Um, and I understand why. I think you take the the day factor out of it. So,

[1:28:43] you know, but I'm not sure that a better look is to include shoot times and

[1:28:49] travel times and average response to get to a building. Uh, let's say in this

[1:28:53] area. I I don't know. I I guess what I'm trying to ask you is

[1:28:58] is is can we can we use shoot times in the data to tell people who live in this

[1:29:04] area how fast you know we get on scene with my fire. Is it possible to do that?

[1:29:14] » We can do that but >> there's a big I guess there's a big uh

[1:29:17] big difference between shoot station two for example and station four.

[1:29:21] » Yes. >> That's right. have I mean it does that's

[1:29:26] why I tell you how to make decisions I think over long term but it does tell

[1:29:30] you what the situation is like today versus what it would be like if it just

[1:29:35] shoots adjustment rotation too does that make sense what I'm saying

[1:29:38] » I think it does and to expand on that I think again this is all file data from

[1:29:43] previous studies with consistent data >> right and that's what we do is build

[1:29:47] upon data from the past and plan for the future and to your point of these uh

[1:29:53] matrix are moving at all like they are very status quo very consistent when we

[1:29:58] look at past uh reports to current today's reports they're they're very

[1:30:03] insistent >> I guess what I mean to say is um shoot

[1:30:07] time to the average resident shoot time is a big deal because that absolutely

[1:30:11] does affect how quickly uh an effective virus mask can get to an individual's

[1:30:18] home

[1:30:21] » absolutely >> I effective is keyword there at a very

[1:30:24] so on that >> and a response of one member is awesome

[1:30:29] to see that familiar face but unfortunately what can be done on a fire

[1:30:33] scene like we've discussed in the class is not other than being a friendly face

[1:30:37] for them to be a shoulder on that's essentially safely and by legislation

[1:30:44] that's >> there are certain standards across the

[1:30:49] province and uh and it's hard to I thought it might right so we kind of

[1:30:54] measured this one against a BA 1720 which is a volunteer or housing that's

[1:31:00] where the numbers come from and you know ending number 14 the 20 is what they

[1:31:07] call area having jurisdiction in other words that's what they the council has

[1:31:13] decided is going to be the service delivery in your municipal then it's

[1:31:18] acceptable so that's why we we have the time deducted off of the drive time so

[1:31:23] that we don't kind of give you a false sense of security that in 10 minutes

[1:31:27] this is where where your firefighters are going to be. It's 10 minutes but you

[1:31:31] have to deduct their tube time. So that >> absolutely deduct shoot time takes out

[1:31:37] um the influence of how close firefighters live to a hall

[1:31:41] » right and and can there be uh advances uh or

[1:31:47] you know improvements? That's where technology comes in most of

[1:31:51] the time, right? The I am responding, all of those types of things because the

[1:31:54] hardest thing for a volunteer, right? Sitting in the hall, sitting in the fire

[1:31:58] truck is do I wait or do I go see is the hardest decision that you have to make.

[1:32:03] But things like uh you know, are you responding help you determine that,

[1:32:08] right? And that makes it and not only that, then people are geared up and

[1:32:12] ready to go, which how many minutes does that save on the scene, right? If you

[1:32:16] look at any firefighter right now tonight, if they were fighting fire and

[1:32:20] they went direct in their vehicle and or they waited to put on bunker gear and on

[1:32:25] a ditch, you know, down a down some lane one morning on the night like tonight,

[1:32:30] how how much time does that increase, right? But it's better that take a

[1:32:35] little bit of time. Firefighters arrive at fire halls, you get all geared up and

[1:32:40] you're going, so you arrive just you just save 10 minutes there and probably

[1:32:45] injury. So anyways, thanks for bringing that up

[1:32:48] because that's a valid point. We certainly consider that.

[1:32:59] » Yeah. So I I mean at this point in time, you might have a question yet sir. I can

[1:33:06] get to you momentarily. Um but our game plan was to stay in the room here. You

[1:33:12] want to come up and look at the maps and speak to us individually. We can

[1:33:15] certainly share some of the thoughts we have, share your own thoughts, but

[1:33:19] that's the presentation that we put forward tonight just to ensure that we

[1:33:23] were showing what the effective response force was for the for the township and

[1:33:29] how it related to changes that are for

[1:33:34] a couple of comments. Well, you have your shoot time whatever

[1:33:39] length you want. But if you have a fire hole closer, two firefighters with

[1:33:44] smaller truck go into a fire closer, you don't need as much water for a smaller

[1:33:49] party, right? Well, a small fire becomes big fire in a

[1:33:54] very short time. >> For sure.

[1:33:56] » But it doesn't mean that the small water supply is enough for the fire. Well, I

[1:34:02] mean in terms and secondly, you keep talking about bigger trucks.

[1:34:08] How do these roads handle these bigger trucks? They don't. So township fixes

[1:34:13] roads trucks.

[1:34:17] » No, fire trucks are heavier. Spring spring, don't tell me that.

[1:34:24] Spring girls are soft. Shoulders are soft. Fire trucks have been lucky

[1:34:30] in my opinion down most of these roads up there.

[1:34:34] » Yeah. I mean the message here is that we would supply more water with larger

[1:34:39] trucks. >> Yeah. Larger truck

[1:34:41] » to ensure Peter's point earlier sending two people into a fire with a small D

[1:34:46] and 100 gallons of water is just not viable.

[1:34:50] » You're putting Well, you did say earlier that smaller trucks.

[1:34:53] » Yeah. It it puts people at risk and for the municipality and for the residents,

[1:34:58] they don't want to go down that problem there

[1:35:00] » for sure. But I'm telling you, you fix the roads up here. You can't get a

[1:35:05] bigger truck down. You keep talking about bigger trucks, more water.

[1:35:10] You can't get a bigger truck than what we have already up. Yeah, I got chief

[1:35:16] question. Have we ever had a time where we couldn't get a fire truck up a road

[1:35:20] upove road? >> Maintain a great point there, Dave. You

[1:35:23] know, some of these private um roadways um seasonal roadways, those are

[1:35:28] definitely certain circumstances, right? Um there's compil road circumstances

[1:35:33] that uh w how wide road and and clearance should be. So, I think to

[1:35:38] point 100% data anywhere we've been with our tanker 431, which would be our

[1:35:42] heaviest truck, um it's had no problems getting into those things. Anthony, do

[1:35:46] you know the weight on that truck by chance?

[1:35:49] » Off the top of my head. >> 2500 US. So it'll be north of 3500 lb.

[1:35:53] » Yeah. >> Yes, for sure.

[1:35:56] » Similar chassis as a cloud truck, which is

[1:36:03] » okay. So we're we're Suzan, thank you for that. The only other thing I will

[1:36:07] add just to the end because Suzanne said it earlier and I certainly think in

[1:36:11] terms of the fire marshall of Ontario and their three lines of defense. Just a

[1:36:18] a reminder to everybody in terms of a public education

[1:36:22] uh again I can share with everybody. So the legislation is changing in January

[1:36:26] of 2026 to ensure that people have working smoke alarms and carbon monoxide

[1:36:32] alarms on every level of their house. So, just be aware of that moving into

[1:36:37] 2026. It's new Ontario regulations. It's important. Carbon monoxide's a

[1:36:44] silent killer. I'm sure lots of people here have appliances in in their homes

[1:36:49] and burn firewood and things like that. Uh that's not the only source, but you

[1:36:53] know it I just want to put a sort of a a public message out to everybody after

[1:36:58] reading the most recent bulletin from the fire marshal about changes to the

[1:37:02] code in 2026 January that you have to have a working carbon monoxide alarm on

[1:37:08] every level of your home. So hopefully I can share that safety tip with you

[1:37:12] moving into 2026. And as I said, we'll we'll be up here if you want to come up

[1:37:17] and have a chat with us individually and and thank you for your time and and

[1:37:22] passion about our discussion tonight. >> What's going to happen with the fireh

[1:37:26] hall then? >> Like once we made it a council decision,

[1:37:31] » what's going to happen?

[1:37:39] » Sorry, Tracy. It'll sit empty like our garage has that we still get heat in and

[1:37:45] electricity.

[1:37:49] » The reason I have all of the

[1:37:53] » sure that's a consideration consideration that we will consider sir

[1:37:57] for sure. Absolutely. >> Rachel

[1:38:02] rapid fire in just more informative questions that I was curious but I'll be

[1:38:06] quick and brief here. Um just so that we know for the mutual aid coverage up in

[1:38:11] White Lake. Do we know how far down that extends?

[1:38:14] » The automatic aid. So the sorry nuance, but automatic aid is they are the first

[1:38:19] responder in mutual aid means all of our friends and neighbors are coming to help

[1:38:23] us out. So we have mutual aid across the entire township whenever we need it and

[1:38:27] we exhaust our resources and they come and help us.

[1:38:29] » It covers everything north of the platform.

[1:38:34] Just know I didn't know. Um just wondering if there's been any lobbying

[1:38:38] efforts with province or local MPP. Um just regarding you know this issue at

[1:38:46] all um whether it's long-term sustainability and financial

[1:38:50] responsibility. just wondering if anybody

[1:38:52] » the Association of Municipalities of Ontario or AMO as it gets called it has

[1:38:56] a very large initiative about the cost of delivering fire services, the cost of

[1:39:00] apparatus uh and they are continually lobby lobbying on that. Um and certainly

[1:39:05] our our counselors and our uh MPP are are

[1:39:10] uh always trying to uh put pressure on the government about our cost of

[1:39:14] infrastructure and um the cost of replacing our aging infrastructure which

[1:39:18] is one of the key drivers in this situation. So through those means yes

[1:39:23] » appreciate that. I feel like we need to just make more of a fuss for us

[1:39:28] individually as a township versus you know they can get lost in that thought.

[1:39:33] Sorry, I'll keep going here. Um, does because of the uh um important

[1:39:38] infrastructure that there is in the village, is there any um automatic aid

[1:39:42] agreements below the boundary of our township? I'm just thinking I'm just

[1:39:48] curious. >> Okay,

[1:39:54] » just just like I said, a lot of these are informative. Um and then I was

[1:39:58] curious too because it was a really good year for um volunteers.

[1:40:03] um uh that had applied. Uh was just wondering why was there a limit to being

[1:40:08] able to hire more because it is an issue that we don't have enough of here

[1:40:11] apparently. So >> yeah, absolutely. That's a great point.

[1:40:14] Uh so we did a extensive hiring campaign. Um we went through um and

[1:40:20] station 4 did receive the greatest number of applicants, but again one area

[1:40:25] doesn't take away from every other area requiring additional uh firefighters as

[1:40:30] well. Um so we we were uh with eight that is substantial. I think you look at

[1:40:35] you know 10 to 15,000 investment you're over $100,000 for those eight um

[1:40:40] members. So again back to the fiscal responsibility there there is a limit of

[1:40:44] how many we can take. If we could take on 100 firefighters at once I would love

[1:40:47] it but the taxpayers would not like to bear that cost.

[1:40:49] » The cost of training is really really high right now. There's again

[1:40:52] provinially mandated uh training requirements that set the bar very very

[1:40:56] high way higher than our traditional volunteer models would have been. Um so

[1:41:00] there is an extensive cost related to that for

[1:41:03] » according to the career models we did continue with a list um and anybody that

[1:41:07] was unsuccessful if there was an opening that was made they were then offered a

[1:41:11] position as well. >> Um

[1:41:15] the GIS we know too is that based on from the fire master plan or like recent

[1:41:20] like this past year's this past year >> post current that you know um and then I

[1:41:26] guess a question for the consultants since they've across Ontario. Um what

[1:41:30] are the rural and remote municipalities um or have are the situations that are

[1:41:35] comparable? What have they done? Is there any persons that we can look at be

[1:41:40] reassured you will be okay? >> Good question.

[1:41:45] But there are right off the top of my head I I I can't

[1:41:50] answer you, but I can certainly get information to the chief and he can get

[1:41:53] back to you uh from any of the fire master plans or from any risk

[1:41:57] assessments. We've across Ontario where we've encountered like there has been

[1:42:02] consolidation in other municipalities. I off the top of my head, I'm sorry I

[1:42:06] can't just pull it out of my hat right now, but we can get that answer for you.

[1:42:10] » And to that point, um if you do a quick Google search on this, it's a scary uh

[1:42:15] amount of volunteer firearms that are going through this situation and it's

[1:42:19] consolidation and closure are all throughout Ontario, Canada, um United

[1:42:23] States. It it is a big issue and all the reasons that we've alluded to earlier.

[1:42:28] It's not just a land pilot issue, but it's a province

[1:42:30] » and a lot of it stems from leftover um differences with amalgamation, right?

[1:42:35] That we had more facilities um from amalgamation than um can be managed by

[1:42:41] the now greater u municipality. And there needs to be a difference a change

[1:42:46] in in business model and a change in how you deliver services. And that's what

[1:42:50] we're trying to implement in this is that that broader countable landark

[1:42:55] highlands um three-station model, but it it changes from what it looked like

[1:43:00] pre-imalgamation. >> I ask how many halls have been closed in

[1:43:04] Manor County and how many of them have been in the items.

[1:43:08] » I don't have that information. Again, it's something we could try to find out,

[1:43:11] but um we don't have jurisdiction over those other municipalities, so I'm not

[1:43:16] sure how that's how they fair. And certainly their geography is much

[1:43:20] different, their risks are much different, their taxes are different. Uh

[1:43:23] so a difficult thing to do comparison, and it's one of the reasons that the um

[1:43:28] province is so focused on each community having their own risk assessment is

[1:43:32] because it's it's not uh apples to apples everywhere you go. is very unique

[1:43:36] to your own uh situations within your own municipality.

[1:43:41] » Rachel, um just sorry to come back to you. Thank you for those questions

[1:43:46] there, Robert. One of the other drivers that that really wasn't discussed at at

[1:43:50] length here, one of the other drivers both in terms of consolidation

[1:43:54] amalgamation um is the fact that the largest uh

[1:43:59] impediment to the fire service in province of Ontario right now is

[1:44:04] recruitment and retention for volunteer firefighters. They're going through, as

[1:44:10] the chief said earlier, the the steps that you have to achieve and the time

[1:44:15] commitment that you have to give in order to be certified as a volunteer

[1:44:20] firefighter or a career firefighter in the province of Ontario has now reached

[1:44:25] the standard that as of July 1st, 2026, everybody has to meet. And consequently

[1:44:32] um not only that but the sort of the social demographics of our society has

[1:44:37] been such that uh volunteers are not coming forward the

[1:44:42] way they were in previous generations. It's it's a you know what do I want to

[1:44:47] do for me type of thing as opposed to what can I do to serve my community. So

[1:44:51] the biggest challenge for u and I'm getting around to the the question you

[1:44:56] asked earlier. The biggest challenge for departments across the entire province

[1:45:00] where they may have to look at consolidation or amalgamation is the

[1:45:03] fact that they have difficulty attracting and retaining volunteer

[1:45:09] firefighters general just because of the standards that have to be met now under

[1:45:14] the provincial regulation which and FBA regulations for July 1, 2026. So

[1:45:21] » talk to someone did apply like I totally understand but And but

[1:45:27] it's just really hard that it seems like um I'm I'm just very much a problem

[1:45:31] solver who want to find issues and I understand that is is is quite um

[1:45:36] complicated and it seems like money just seems to be a problem. Um and it just

[1:45:42] that is just not a good enough um response good enough excuse for me the

[1:45:48] grand scheme of things here um when money is getting spent on all levels of

[1:45:53] government. Exactly. And I'll revert back to what the chief said earlier. The

[1:45:57] third factor there, well, we may get a population that's willing to step up.

[1:46:02] Um, 15 or $16,000 is was the last benchmark number we had for bringing a

[1:46:09] new recruit on board per person to outfit them, to train them to the

[1:46:13] standards, to get them their certifications and all of those things.

[1:46:17] It also becomes a cost factor and you you may have people lining up at the

[1:46:21] door, but do you have the resources to put them through the course? Do you have

[1:46:24] the resources to purchase uh 20 new sets of gear? There's a lot of factors over

[1:46:29] and above that. And as I said earlier, um, yeah, well, maybe we'll take 10 this

[1:46:35] year and put a list out that we can hold 10 back for next year because budgetary

[1:46:40] constraints, training constraints, availability of individuals to do the

[1:46:45] work, uh, is massive, you know, let alone let alone, and I respect anybody

[1:46:51] who was a volunteer firefighter in the room, let alone the huge commitment from

[1:46:56] today, from 20 years ago, you know, uh, it's it's day and night. You're you're

[1:47:01] you're asking people to put in one or two nights a week or all weekends for

[1:47:06] the next six months. It's a huge commitment and and kudos to everybody

[1:47:10] who steps up to try to do it, but you have to respect the fact that fire

[1:47:14] departments also have limitations for bringing people on.

[1:47:19] » Sorry. Do I have any idea about budget considerations

[1:47:25] » to what increase are we going to have like on an

[1:47:30] annual basis >> on an annual basis going forward? That

[1:47:34] part hasn't been calculated. The the budget process there will be a separate

[1:47:38] meeting on our uh budget that is open to the public. That's January 30th I

[1:47:42] believe it is. Um that'll be in council chambers and that's for the 2026 budget.

[1:47:47] » Can you give us some ideas now how much uh these new fire halls will cost. And

[1:47:52] » as the chief mentioned, we haven't gotten to that point in the study. What

[1:47:56] we're doing tonight is talking to this community about the service provided and

[1:48:02] the service that will continue to be provided with the consolidation of

[1:48:08] station 4 and two

[1:48:12] » and that that will be addressed throughout the plan

[1:48:16] » and there'll be there are portions of of um the plan as far as the fleet

[1:48:21] considerations in the 2026 budget but yeah as the chief alluded to we We

[1:48:25] currently don't have the uh multi-year uh capital planning because we are in

[1:48:30] the middle of completing facility review and asset management plan, but it's

[1:48:35] coming. We will get to the point of having that. I just I do not have that

[1:48:38] on me tonight and I can't say that anybody in our building has that for you

[1:48:41] today. >> Nobody has any idea.

[1:48:43] » Asset management planning is open. So as residents would like to see an increase

[1:48:47] in service level, that is your time to speak to council a

[1:48:51] » and see an increase in service. what does that cost look like and where is

[1:48:55] Land Island willing to accept um an increase with any increase comes cost.

[1:49:00] So asset management plan you seem like you're very invested in this. I think

[1:49:04] you should jump on board and really take part in asset management planning and

[1:49:08] sit in on council discussions because it's your time. It's your guys money and

[1:49:12] this is a very important plan for you guys to be a part of and voice your

[1:49:16] concerns. If you want more or better that's asset management plan is a

[1:49:20] perfect opportunity to have that done. Our shouldn't be too bad because it's

[1:49:24] been quadrupled and now we have the roads created twice a year. We have

[1:49:30] nobody left working up here and now at all.

[1:49:33] » That's a great point. >> Everything in our township is completely

[1:49:36] gone. Nothing long. >> And that's a great great point.

[1:49:39] » And our taxes are quadruple of what they were.

[1:49:42] » Yeah. So raise that concern when you see an increase in service. Why do you pay

[1:49:46] taxes on something? Sorry. >> Why do you pay taxes on something that

[1:49:51] you own? unmaintained road like fire services or anything and they won't go

[1:49:55] down any >> I mean I think that's a whole another

[1:49:59] discussion that's province countywide

[1:50:05] that we're not allowed to go down camp road if there's a fire there now because

[1:50:09] the roads are just screwed now because they haven't done anything with them

[1:50:15] » discussions on seasonally maintained road

[1:50:18] » put up a 6C sign so they name the music that's

[1:50:23] » for sure. I I appreciate that. Thank you very

[1:50:28] » I know it's an emotional topic. I I do really sincerely thank you for coming

[1:50:32] tonight being so engaged. Uh I I realize that this is important and it's

[1:50:37] important to the township is important to this community. Uh and the township

[1:50:41] does care about this community. I know that that might you might scoff at that

[1:50:48] moment. I I say that sincerely and we will

[1:50:52] » so big on the seventh line for like two or three weeks

[1:50:57] that doesn't take away >> knew about it until the fire trucks had

[1:51:01] to go around it and then they took no oh we better close that in.

[1:51:06] » So just so you know there is a continued and there will be a continued response

[1:51:10] to this community. We are continuing to have a fire department that provides

[1:51:14] emergency response, that provides public safety and education. Uh, and I also

[1:51:19] want to recognize that our volunteers are are they're our most essential asset

[1:51:25] in our fire department. And uh, I recognize that that is true here in

[1:51:30] station 4. It's true in all of our stations. So, thank you to those who are

[1:51:33] volunteers and to everyone who gives their time and dedication. It it is very

[1:51:38] important to our township. Um and and we are concerned about being being careful

[1:51:44] and responsible with your tax dollars, which is why we want to come up with an

[1:51:48] effective plan for the future that is going to make responsible decisions.

[1:51:52] That also means hard decisions, which is which is what we're facing right now,

[1:51:57] but they can be both. I'd like numbers during this call before all this and the

[1:52:02] numbers before >> the numbers of staff or the numbers of

[1:52:05] » the ones we had before and then they never they've never even hired a soul

[1:52:10] since the numbers are down. Oh, you can't say the fire anymore.

[1:52:16] So since 2019 when they come up with this plan they just no

[1:52:20] » I think there's been a lot that changed in the world since 2019. I I can't

[1:52:24] specifically point to that that is, you know, what the what the cause directly

[1:52:29] of that is. >> You can't well that many years that they

[1:52:32] could have put one or two in every year and our numbers would have filled up.

[1:52:36] There was lots of people I know that put in and they were just throwing in the

[1:52:39] garbage. Nobody never >> in fairness that was a different fire.

[1:52:44] » I'm not saying it still. I'm saying what the township

[1:52:47] » I'm saying Dave what the township has done.

[1:52:49] » Okay. >> That's what I'm saying. I did say it's

[1:52:52] still I said it's the what the tail ship has done since they started this ship.

[1:52:58] » That's what they've done. >> The numbers down

[1:53:02] the numbers are now the numbers look really good.

[1:53:05] » There's a big cultural piece. I'll recognize that.

[1:53:07] » I think we've heard your concerns. I appreciate if that happened in the past.

[1:53:11] That is not the way professional conduct should be done and I can assure you that

[1:53:15] is not being done now with myself as a fire chief.

[1:53:17] » Well, Jeff, how long have you been in as fire chief? Please,

[1:53:21] » Stephen. >> So, in the two Yeah. Sorry, I called you

[1:53:24] your dad's name, Stephen. So, in the two years you've been chief,

[1:53:29] » our numbers didn't drop in two years. So, maybe you should do a wee bit more

[1:53:34] research because at prime time in this hall, we had like 20 volunteers every

[1:53:40] single I I've been for those of you who don't know me, I grew up fire service

[1:53:45] highs. I've been around this place for many, many years and a proud member

[1:53:49] since I was 16 years old. Um, I I have seen the highs and the lows of every

[1:53:53] single station. Every single station has went through this. It is a change that

[1:53:57] every station has faced. Station one has went from high numbers of 35 down to 10.

[1:54:02] Station two has done the exact same thing. Every station has been through

[1:54:05] that. That's not liner. That is a country provincewide issue that's going

[1:54:11] on. It it's everywhere. The times have changed and I I respect how upset you

[1:54:16] guys are about this, but I want you to know that

[1:54:20] » times have changed and that's not what's occurring and it's a very transparent.

[1:54:24] You can come in and look in my inbox of who applied last year, how the process

[1:54:29] works. It's all sorted. I I would be more than happy, Tracy, to sit down for

[1:54:32] an hour in my office and have a discussion.

[1:54:34] » I'm not saying it was you. I'd say they've done this since 2019. Our

[1:54:38] numbers went down there. They've never hired any

[1:54:41] I know there's people >> ready come on we will sit down and have

[1:54:44] a discussion both of you I welcome you to my office we'll sit down and go

[1:54:46] through our discussion to go with you in your

[1:54:50] office that

[1:54:54] » he has done nothing but bad this township right in front of my family

[1:55:00] in an ambulance >> I think that's he bad

[1:55:04] » this is in the forum for a personal issue

[1:55:07] in my office we have the stuff we have what have you

[1:55:13] What have you done? >> My my response Tracy is that is HR very

[1:55:17] confidential things. We do not talk to that open forum. You do not know if

[1:55:20] anything has been addressed or not. Okay. There's been conversation that

[1:55:25] » I think in the time of place I' ask you that we end that conversation. Please

[1:55:30] » I have no idea what you're talking about.

[1:55:33] » Can I just say one thing? >> Absolutely. when you're talking about

[1:55:36] volunteer firefighters and the change in their demographics in society and

[1:55:40] everything.

[1:55:44] » I applaud every single volunteer firefighter and every volunteer, but

[1:55:48] it's a social thing. People don't volunteer the way they did 25 or 30

[1:55:56] years ago. people in their 20s, 30s, 40s very seldom volunteer for anything. So I

[1:56:06] mean whether it's a a social event, you know, like our country was

[1:56:13] grew on volunteers and people helping people. the whole society has changed

[1:56:21] and somebody said it it's the me society and it's you know you're at a distance

[1:56:28] from everybody. So

[1:56:32] » yeah it's I believe that it's a problem to to recruit and return and and I w and

[1:56:40] I applaud every single volunteer >> and thank you very much for that

[1:56:45] comment. That's well received. Thank you. But uh anyways, thank you very

[1:56:50] much. >> Thank you. I I guess if anybody wants to

[1:56:53] come and chat with us, we're here for a little bit and thank you for your time.

Public Information Meeting -10 December 2025

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