[1:10] Okay, the October 15, 2024 meeting of the dairy township zoning hearing board is called to order. I want to make everybody aware that it is and has been the policy of dairy township to record meetings from the purpose of accurate notes and posting on the township website. This meeting is being recorded for those purposes. We'll do a roll call during the Sarah. Here, Tom, Dean Donatus. Here, Mike Angelo. Here, Bill Tafuto. Here, Steve Sidal.

[1:39] I'm here. Okay, we're all here.

[1:44] Okay, I'll make a motion to approve the minutes of the September 18th, 2024 meeting.

[1:52] I have a second. I'll second. Thank you, Tom. Any discussion? Okay, seeing none? All in favor?

[1:59] Aye. Any opposed? Okay, that motion carries unanimously. All right, we have one item of old business today. That's the adoption of a decision in the case of

[2:14] I will read the substantive parts of that proposed order and go from there.

[2:27] So number one, the applicants request for variance from section 225-401.2.1.

[2:35] point B regarding construction on areas with slopes in excess of 20% is granted.

[2:42] The applicant may construct the single family residence while disturbing no more than the

[2:48] area depicted in yellow in the applicant sketch plan submitted to the board at the hearing

[2:54] of this matter except as otherwise permitted by the ordinance.

[2:58] And then I won't read all of these here, the applicant can read these in the order when

[3:05] I receive that.

[3:07] But there's a number of conditions that we've placed on that we're placing on this decision.

[3:14] So I'll make a motion to adopt this decision.

[3:18] Do I have a second?

[3:18] Second.

[3:19] Thank you Bill.

[3:20] Any discussion?

[3:21] All in favor?

[3:23] Aye.

[3:24] Any opposed?

[3:25] Okay.

[3:25] that motion carries unanimously.

[3:35] All right, new business. We have one case tonight. We

[3:40] have a hearing in the case of Wendy. Are we all left? Am I saying that right?

[3:48] See again?

[3:50] Oh, okay. Okay. So I butch if I butchered her name then I guess she didn't hear that. Case number

[3:57] a 2024-21. So we'll give her a minute here.

[4:07] I made the motion and Bill's second.

[4:10] All

[4:49] right, for my delay, everything looks so dark outside.

[4:53] Okay, if you would. So we've just called your case. So we do need you to state your full

[5:02] name and your address and be sworn in by the court reporter.

[5:06] All right, my full name is Wendy R. We'll fluff.

[5:10] My address is 810, Fish Furn Road, Hershey P.A. 17033.

[5:22] I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,

[5:25] and nothing but the truth, oh my God.

[5:33] Okay, you can explain to us what you want to do

[5:38] and how you're meeting there.

[5:39] And before you're hearing board to see if I can get

[5:45] special exceptions for my home on 810 Fishburden Road to turn it into a

[5:51] bed and breakfast home. Right now it's currently S-F-D-D. When I go through the

[6:03] paperwork that I filled out, it is a residential and commercial, residential and

[6:14] commercial tour door. Bed and breakfast home will not overburden our public utilities.

[6:22] There is existing commercial vendors in this same neighborhood along the street. And

[6:29] then this property meets all the right requirements of the zoning ordinance.

[6:40] So I was asking for,

[6:43] I think you're allowed to have up to five, no more than five bedrooms.

[6:47] I'm asking for four bedrooms, and I have no alleyways or anything to block.

[6:58] I have a driveway rather wide driveway to the side of my house and two car parking under

[7:08] in a garage plus five more spaces outside to the right of the house when you're

[7:18] facing it be to the right so parking should not be a problem or burden any of my

[7:24] neighbors can you can you can you describe your like you know number of bedrooms

[7:31] and and so on that you currently have in your property and and what along me

[7:37] finish please. It has a bedroom on the main floor with an adjacent bathroom with a

[7:45] walk-in shower so that would be actually a nice fit for a person that has

[7:50] disabilities or difficulty climbing stairs and then upstairs three bedrooms on a

[7:57] bath up there full bath up there and then let's see it

[8:09] has a living room dining

[8:10] any room? Kitchen.

[8:15] And are you planning on adding bedrooms or adding any adding to your house?

[8:22] Well, it currently has enough bedrooms for me to to rent out and to reside on the premises.

[8:31] Okay, are you adding anything to it? I wasn't going to add anything. So you said you have one bedroom on the main floor and a bathroom and you have three bedrooms upstairs.

[8:41] Yes, and then I have a full basement with the walk out, walk out, exit for me.

[8:54] Your plan is to, when you have guests there, your plan is to be in the basement, is the stay in the basement, that's the plan.

[9:01] And are you going to allow access to the kitchen, to the guests?

[9:06] What I'm thinking is that although I have a home economics degree, I don't enjoy getting up early and making breakfast.

[9:14] So, I was going to make things available for people to make themselves cereal or cooked cereal

[9:20] or the pots and pans and those items to make their own breakfast and then when they were

[9:27] going on cleanup.

[9:29] Luckily, I have dishwasher.

[9:36] I think they've enjoyed tasting my meals.

[9:39] I'm usually too impatient and I burn toast rather quickly.

[9:43] So, is your plan to rent in each bedroom, rent individual rooms to various guests?

[9:54] I plan to rent in each bedroom for what?

[9:57] To rent each bedroom to individual guests or what?

[10:03] In the present time, I'm thinking that it will probably be families since we're in the

[10:12] The bedrooms are separated, but they would have to share the bath on

[10:19] each floor.

[10:23] And so what do you have in the basement that would allow you to live there?

[10:29] They have.

[10:30] You have a full bath?

[10:31] Well, I have a shower, walk in shower, toilet, and sink.

[10:41] I also have an outdoor shower,

[10:46] but I don't think guests will enjoy that as much as I do.

[10:52] I have a concern about the parking day, maybe we can help us out with this accessibility and the parking situation for the number of vehicles that might be staying at the property overnight.

[11:05] As far as all they believe is separate spots for each vehicle that's required or will they have to park in line in the driveway.

[11:15] So, a bed and breakfast home is more akin to residential in this setting where we allow

[11:24] stacked parking. I would recommend a condition be made that it not be rented individual bedrooms

[11:32] but whole house at the time because that will affect the parking because if there are non-related

[11:38] to people. Now you have a parade of cars hanging out of a busy road trying to get the appropriate

[11:47] car out. However, there are enough spaces for the two for her dwelling unit plus the

[11:56] four bedrooms. So six total spaces required. And as you mentioned, she does have the space

[12:01] in the garage plus five in the driveway itself.

[12:05] We do make them line them up. We do make applicants line them off so

[12:12] that's something that's

[12:13] checked on inspection. Yeah, can you show us though? I'm not following where the spaces outside

[12:21] of the garage are opening

[12:29] the garage door in its two car widths in there. So that would be two spaces where the car is now

[12:37] and beside it that would be two more spaces and then down the entire right side you could get

[12:43] more spaces.

[12:47] How wide is the driveway that's paved Dave do you know?

[12:55] I would

[12:59] say two cars could

[13:00] pass each other on the driveway because it's done.

[13:12] I drive a Honda and a Subaru so I don't have a

[13:17] be like Graham, truck, or anything like that.

[13:26] And then just for the record, this is being measured from quite a distance.

[13:31] So it is not to be taking as fully accurate.

[13:42] Reasonable to assume 12 to 15 feet.

[13:49] Still talking, we still talking about the width of the driveway.

[13:52] Yes, yes, the driveway width is roughly 12 to 15 feet.

[13:56] Okay, which is not too car-whist.

[13:59] Yeah.

[13:59] Is your plan to rent the rooms out individually, or are you only planning to rent this to one family if somebody says I only need two of the bedrooms?

[14:09] What I'm thinking is that maybe families would come, grandparents and adult children and grandchildren.

[14:18] So one rental, one family, one, you're not going to have two families.

[14:24] No, I would think in the fall, you might have two couples there, is that what you're saying?

[14:34] And, David, could you review the special exception portion about the kitchen and

[14:42] what is allowed and what isn't allowed, is it cooking, is there?

[14:45] Yes.

[14:47] As well as the definition section two, David.

[14:50] Absolutely.

[14:51] So, I will start with the definition of that in breakfast home.

[14:57] A bed and breakfast home isn't...

[15:00] Unger occupied single-family detached dwelling in which a maximum of 10 rooms, all without cooking facilities, are rented to guests typically on a daily basis in which breakfast may be served to the guest to the proprietor by the proprietor of the facility. Then check in the special exception requirements. Point E states, meal service shall be limited to breakfast only to overnight guests of the facility.

[15:29] So,

[15:38] basically, they want the people that are staying there to be served food, not to prepare food.

[15:45] Is that what it says served by the-

[15:48] So, it's the operative word and the definition is maybe served breakfast.

[15:54] Breakfast is not a requirement, there is no meal service requirement, it's just optional.

[16:00] But if there is limited to breakfast only and provided by the proprietor.

[16:06] provided by meaning light muffins and stuff, or they are, I guess, what I'm asking

[16:13] is that are the people, I always thought there was something with, like, cooking or

[16:17] stove or something where the people that the guests weren't supposed to have access

[16:22] to that. Is that not a thing?

[16:24] Yes, historically this board and the township has viewed that the guests should

[16:29] not be accessing the access.

[16:34] Yeah, as I said, it's like I was right.

[16:37] They should not have access to the the cooking facilities because then it turns the lines

[16:44] are blurred between short-term rental and bed and breakfast home.

[16:49] And in my thoughts, I was thinking of a tourist home from when I was a kid where the owners

[16:56] members of the property. I think whoever came into the house at the time would share

[17:01] that bathroom and people understood that. And then there's the opportunity to make

[17:07] your own cereal or whatever in the morning.

[17:15] So I don't know if the bed and breakfast

[17:17] idea still goes with that tourist home idea or not that used to be a cocoa avenue.

[17:28] So it has been the township's own officer determination in the past and it holds true that

[17:37] guess of this bed and breakfast as with all bed and breakfast should not be able to cook

[17:43] their own meals.

[17:44] It should be breakfast only provided by the proprietor.

[17:50] We have seen that a continental breakfast is it is perfectly fine

[17:57] Setting out little serious cereals and stuff like that

[18:00] A little cooking for me to do the better

[18:03] Do I pour their own cereal for them? Well

[18:07] Breakfast is not you do not need to provide breakfast. You could just choose to not provide the breakfast as well

[18:17] But if you choose to your it's just a cold

[18:21] If I choose to, if you choose to, you're leaving out cold breakfast, they shouldn't be on the stove oven, etc.

[18:28] I think that's the point.

[18:29] Right.

[18:29] And I would think that they would help themselves to heating up muffins in the microwave.

[18:34] I wouldn't be surprised.

[18:37] Well, I think that's part of the part of what we're trying to clarify here is that they're not,

[18:46] But they're not to have access to cooking facilities.

[18:52] So if they, you know, board themselves a bowl of cereal, that's fine.

[18:57] But if you're giving them access to, if you're giving them access to the whole first and

[19:04] second floor, including the kitchen, that's not the definition of a bread and breakfast.

[19:10] Okay. This door, this house happens to have it. I don't know why, but they would actually have a swing door in the kitchen and a hallway and another door on the other side, and I can block off the entire kitchen for the people that would make them have to access the house from the front door.

[19:32] are you intending to and permanently live in the basement area or you live in the basement

[19:42] area when I would have guests or I would, you know, I think when the guests, if they're

[19:53] my relatives, I'm staying in my bed.

[19:57] Okay, so your intention is that you still intend to utilize the entire house, including

[20:05] the kitchen on your first floor for yourself and when you have guests in the other four bedrooms

[20:14] and they would have essentially exclusive use of those four bedrooms and the bathrooms but

[20:21] room in the dining room.

[20:22] But not the kitchen and not the lower level.

[20:25] Correct.

[20:26] Okay.

[20:27] I have a question.

[20:28] And is this what kind of availability will you have?

[20:30] Will it be year round or will it be just tour season, summer season?

[20:33] You're round.

[20:35] And I'm thinking probably more families would come in the summertime and more couples would

[20:40] come in the spring and fall.

[20:44] Okay.

[20:44] So potentially you could have guests year round and you'd be in the basement for the full

[20:49] term during the guess. Okay. It's a nice face. Full table. Dark board. My only concern

[20:59] might be that if the owner operator is not going to be providing a breakfast for the people

[21:08] staying there, that it kind of gets away from the concept of bed and breakfast, doesn't it?

[21:16] Well, if it's going to be a bit of breakfast where I'm the only one serving, I can do that.

[21:24] But I was thinking more of the cold cereal and that kind of thing.

[21:29] More of a continental breakfast for eat and run.

[21:33] All right.

[21:33] Thank you.

[21:34] I'm expecting guests to probably have a full agenda and some time it would be her sheep

[21:39] or rest of the year might be looking at least changing or whatever.

[21:44] All right.

[21:44] Thank you.

[21:53] So when you would have guests there, back to the parking, where

[22:02] would you be parking and how will you get in and out if your schedule doesn't coincide with theirs in terms of going about your, you know, your daily activities.

[22:12] I'm thinking it's my property, so my schedule would need to coincide with the guest departure and me leaving after them.

[22:20] I

[22:27] can also, my son has a place, I can walk to my son's house and take his car if I needed to.

[22:38] What is the distance between your garage and looks like you have a turnaround key there?

[22:47] My concern is back and out on the Fishburne Road.

[22:50] Yes, I have people do as I have them back down the driveway face in and go on to the

[22:57] McCatum area and then back out back when they back they don't even go they go

[23:04] straight across the driveway there and then turn their vehicle forward. So if you

[23:11] ever come to my house and you would start to back into that turnaround I'd

[23:16] encourage you to back straight down the driveway,

[23:19] go face forward into the turnaround,

[23:22] and then go backwards.

[23:24] And that has been there for years.

[23:27] So if some of it's Macatam and some of it's stone,

[23:32] it was all there.

[23:34] Right, so how much space then is available

[23:38] than from that, and David,

[23:40] I don't know if we have any kind of a plan or anything

[23:42] that shows that.

[23:47] Yeah, from the, from the, from the face of the garage to, you know, where that turnaround

[23:52] is, and that's going to be hard to turn around.

[23:55] Well, maybe we could figure out the width of my house.

[24:00] Well, I'm trying, I'm trying to understand, yeah, I'm trying to understand whether there's

[24:04] space for two cars in front of the garage, you're four cars in front of the garage without

[24:18] blocking that turnaround space okay if there's two down the line how do you

[24:21] get past those cars when you turn around at that point because of that

[24:24] turnaround space it's

[24:29] narrow west at the bottom of the road that closest to

[24:33] the road it's narrow west there yeah

[24:38] I mean without without seeing some

[24:39] some dimensions. I'm not following how you both use the turnaround for its intended purpose

[24:46] and also park cars, you know, past where the turnaround is. It just seems, that just doesn't seem

[24:54] plausible. I think you're saying you would have the two cars that are along the side. You'd have

[25:01] them closer to the road is that you would not. Closer to the house. Closer to the house. Okay.

[25:08] So what Steve is like parallel parking and it would be three cars down down the far right side parallel parking

[25:17] Three down the right to at the garage and then the bump out would stay open. Yes

[25:25] And you could actually

[25:27] But it might defeat your purpose is you could actually back into the the

[25:32] in the cattle area and there could be a space there at the turn around space, but you're really defeating your purpose.

[25:39] So you're, so where that car is if there's another one beside it, you would instruct them to back lines in the, in the, in the thing.

[25:48] So they should, should stay in the lines. There would be parallel lines and then you would have them back into that area.

[25:56] So that car that's there now, would you have them swing into that open spot and then face forward?

[26:04] You'd have them back all the way down the driveway and then back onto fishburn.

[26:10] To turn in the turn around spot.

[26:12] So we're backing up, passing, turning around and then going forward into the turn around and then...

[26:18] Oh, I see what you're saying that's instead of backing into the turn.

[26:21] It's not the same thing, sir.

[26:23] Yeah, I did just...

[26:24] the way I'm described. Yeah. Okay, but I just want to understand is once you get into the turn around going forward, how are you, how are you backing up?

[26:34] If you go straight back, you're, I thought you're saying there's cars lined up along that right side of the driveway.

[26:42] Stop above that area.

[26:46] Stop above closer to the garage, you're saying.

[26:53] You could actually make a turn there, but people don't turn that back.

[27:01] So the parallel park wouldn't extend back into that turn or back.

[27:08] So if we're looking at that line, you got a car beside the CRB or whatever's there.

[27:13] And then additional two cars.

[27:15] Two more.

[27:16] Yeah.

[27:16] but it's the cars aren't coming back as far as that turnaround that what you're

[27:22] saying it's hard it's not well you know that's probably yeah right exactly that's

[27:26] exactly it would be at that turnaround spot so yeah I think our chair in this

[27:33] question is is whether you can properly and efficiently use that turnaround when

[27:39] you have two parallel parking spots there that are going to impede it's use

[27:46] And so I think it's all boils down to, you know, because of that are people going to be backing all the way up into Fishburn.

[27:52] So that's why the questions are kind of centered around making sure that it's feasible to do that.

[28:00] So if you pull into that turn around spot, you could also back into the back end of that Subaru that's showing there too, because that would be an empty space to turn.

[28:13] I mean, what would be nice is if we actually had a plan view to scale showing the, you know,

[28:21] where the placement of the cards is and what the radii are for turning just to make sure

[28:25] everything works the way you think it's going to work and so that we have something to

[28:29] reference if we approve or approve with conditions.

[28:32] In the past, I've had two teenage children there are now adults.

[28:37] My daughter just turned 39 today, but we had five cars in our driveway all the time.

[28:44] So it was always a maneuverable thing.

[28:54] Only once did I have a truck at the time, but it was a small truck.

[29:09] Any other questions?

[29:11] I guess the other possibility could be to drop it down to three bedrooms, and then that would

[29:17] eliminate one car space.

[29:19] but if you're still that concerned, I'd like to keep it at four of that rooms.

[29:27] Yeah, I mean, I think Mr. DeFuteau had had it correct as far as where I was going with what I was asking you.

[29:35] And that is, it's very hard to tell just looking at a photo here.

[29:41] The only way that you could maybe-

[29:42] Without looking at a plan-

[29:43] The bird's eye view.

[29:45] Right, without looking at a plan.

[29:46] Measure off and draw the lines.

[29:50] Yeah, but to have a plan that shows where you're intending to put the parking relative to the you know the existing

[29:57] Academy gravel, you know

[30:00] Around, et cetera. And typically that's, you know, what we would expect to see when someone's showing that we could, you know, certainly that could be something the township could staff could verify, which one possibility. David had that been looked at it all yet. No, that would be looked at as part of the permit in our standard parking spaces, nine feet by 18 feet.

[30:27] Granted, again, in most residents,

[30:29] or situations. That's overlooked just because it's not as imperative on residential however

[30:38] when you're using residential as commercial in this case. If we do require that standard

[30:43] parking, township parking spaces be provided.

[30:57] Okay. I think we've asked our questions. Is there anything else you want to add?

[31:01] We will invite the public comment then and then we'll close out from there.

[31:13] It's everyone from the public that wishes to speak, testify.

[31:18] Please come up to the podium and please give us your full name and your address and the court reporter.

[31:24] We'll swear you in.

[31:34] My name is Susan Lynn Eppler and I live we have we own the apartment building next to Wendy at 818 Fishburn Road and we live in a list of the town.

[31:44] Is there anything else for me to say?

[31:45] I think I spell your last name.

[31:47] Oh, E.

[31:48] P is in Paul.

[31:49] L-E-R.

[31:51] Thank you.

[31:56] I do.

[31:58] Okay.

[31:59] So we just have two concerns.

[32:01] We're okay with whatever she wants to do.

[32:02] That's fine. We're a power tour.

[32:04] But one is the parking.

[32:06] years ago people used to park on our place and my dad and I had to go over and

[32:10] talk to her and tell her that that wasn't allowed but that was years ago so I'm

[32:14] not worried about that but more recently she's gone over she just crosses over

[32:18] a property to leave that way instead of using her in driveway and like if she

[32:23] didn't think we would be up or if she we were passing we just happened to catch

[32:26] her a couple of times where we saw the lines in the grass so that is one of our

[32:31] concerns is the parking because we you know have our own tenants over there and we just don't want

[32:36] we don't want our place being used. The other thing is pets we're worried about that because like

[32:42] her dog comes over and defecates on our yard quite often and that's okay and she's her neighbor we

[32:48] can just we'll just dispose of it but I don't want other animals to do the same thing and those were our

[32:54] two concerns. Okay, so your German animals that might be accompanying people that are renting

[33:01] a room? Yes. Okay. Are you 19? Yeah, that one right there. So when you're saying traverse,

[33:15] they go from that turnaround hub and then cross right through. Yeah, yeah, it was a little bit kind

[33:20] in a catty corner is where she would come,

[33:22] but yeah, when the grasses are up, she can't do as much,

[33:24] but yeah,

[33:29] we did allow her to park there

[33:30] when she was getting her road repaved,

[33:32] but not to go through our grass.

[33:35] I mean, straight through there.

[33:37] Yeah, when the grasses aren't there,

[33:39] then she would go there, yes.

[33:43] And those are pretty much our only concerns.

[33:44] Of if not, I mean, we have no problem with it all.

[33:49] Do you have any questions of me or?

[33:51] Well, just so, are you saying that driving through that area

[33:56] was happening one just any time or just when there were more vehicles or too many vehicles.

[34:03] Well there was no reason for that but yeah a long time ago I should have people parked there but

[34:07] that was right after we bought the building and that was years ago when what has been

[34:34] So anyone else from the public wishing to speak?

[34:43] You're welcome to, if you want to.

[34:51] In front of the spaces before they owned the previous owner allowed.

[34:56] We would often have, we all attend fishburn church.

[35:00] So we would have an eating run type of thing in our home after church so everybody would

[35:05] gather and eat at our house and then go home.

[35:08] the previous owner that owned the apartments before those buildings the

[35:13] sheds were there allowed us to park the friends to park their cars because it

[35:21] was often as much as 20 people so that that was a safe way out and also safe in our

[35:28] driveway as well so that would have been more of a situation where it would have

[35:32] been an event or something like that that's what people would call it today

[35:37] on Sundays after church for a meal and then they also had given me permission when we did have

[35:47] an event which was my daughter's wedding to use that area there to turn around as well so we are

[35:54] pretty reasonable neighbors as far as respecting each other when I do drive through their property it's

[36:03] because I have a trailer on the back

[36:08] and I am cutting down those decorative grasses.

[36:12] I often cut theirs down for them as well.

[36:15] So I thought that I was doing them a favor

[36:18] by returning the favor.

[36:21] Regarding the dogs, they go through the backyard

[36:25] and one of their rentals is right on the other house

[36:28] on the other side and they have a Dalmatian

[36:31] and their puppy and the boys call the dogs over in and chase their dog back.

[36:38] So the dogs running them back and forth through the back yards does happen.

[36:44] And I can control that by stopping it by getting the shop collar on the dog again.

[36:49] They do have under all their shits, they do have feral cats.

[36:54] So we ignore the cats.

[36:57] Any way, Wendy, would you have a problem if we put a condition if we, if we were inclined

[37:02] to approve this, would you have a problem with a condition that said your guests can't have pets?

[37:06] Oh, for sure.

[37:08] Is that fine?

[37:09] I would be more than happy for that.

[37:11] All right.

[37:12] Just wanted to-

[37:12] Because that would be a problem.

[37:13] I mean, that addresses this, we don't, yeah.

[37:17] And do you still have your Sunday gatherings or is that in the past?

[37:20] I know that my husband was the cook in our family.

[37:23] Thank you.

[37:23] I say I don't look, I can make the mess and I can clean up, but I don't do the cooking.

[37:35] Okay. All right.

[37:39] I think so.

[37:42] All right, so the board has 45 days to rent her a decision and you have 30 days thereafter to appeal.

[37:50] If you're agreed in any way.

[37:52] Steve, we're in the back, maybe.

[37:55] Were you guys planning to say to anyone else?

[37:57] What was plenty on speaking of that I think I asked that but okay,

[38:04] so you go again. All right. Thank you

[38:07] Okay

[38:09] That concludes our

[38:11] bad hearing

[38:15] Okay any other business

[38:19] Hearing none. I'll make a motion for the board to adjourn to executive session. I'll second. Thank you Tom. Any discussion all in favor

[38:27] I and the board will do

[38:31] I'm sure into an executive session to celebrate on this case.

[38:35] Thank you.

Untitled meeting

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