[0:05] Okay, welcome everyone.

[0:10] » Yeah, so got my hand. Oh yeah, banana banana.

[0:14] » Okay, so uh yeah, welcome to our September

[0:19] work session. Uh thanks for coming tonight. That's a hot day. Sorry,

[0:25] so let's get started. Um let's see. All business there is not an automated

[0:29] business agenda first. >> Sure. We do have a conditional use

[0:34] hearing recommended uh for approval from planning commission and our thousand

[0:39] square foot gross floor area uh attached garage. So that is on the back of your

[0:45] agendas. Uh everything else is relatively uh routine. We will discuss

[0:52] Northland Public Library a little bit later on the agenda explain what that

[0:56] resolution is. We've got

[1:00] everything else has been added, but we will kick off the event with presation

[1:06] to Sergeant. Is that all lined up? Everything's good

[1:09] to go. >> We're good to go.

[1:12] » Months later, we're good to go. >> You're in possession of the yellow

[1:16] brick. >> I am.

[1:17] » All right. not

[1:20] » but wanted to ask we have new council junior council welcome

[1:25] » is there like swear in something happens >> they do the pledge the mayor will um do

[1:34] the pledge with Elena at the regular meeting

[1:36] » okay >> but we always it's uh I forgot to put it

[1:40] on there you are correct it's not on there um so that will be at the regular

[1:44] meeting >> okay cool

[1:47] » have any questions on the agenda Just yeah one this start me thinking about

[1:51] that the thousand square foot conditional use thing. Is there a

[1:54] practical reason why after planning commission looks at it that it comes to

[1:57] council for the additional use for the thousand gross that's building. Is there

[2:02] » practical or reason for >> so this started when when detach garages

[2:09] started to brew and grow and we had an issue with the way gross area was

[2:13] defined. So it was two stories that didn't have it. Uh so several years back

[2:19] um made amendments and more restrictions on accessory structures uh one of them

[2:25] being this process uh primarily to alert the neighbors as to what's going on. Um

[2:31] there are standards in the zoning ordinance with respect to placement on

[2:36] the lot ability to subdivide in the future everything like that but it's why

[2:43] we go through it. any conditional use requires a recommendation from the

[2:47] planning commission uh and a public hearing

[2:51] to do. We don't have any special exceptions, nothing for the zoning

[2:53] hearing boards to do it by right is the other avenue would just be a zoning

[2:59] permit session. No. >> So the public hearing is really what

[3:04] what's key here. So everybody knows what's going on. They're concerned about

[3:08] the size of the the garage. They can come in.

[3:12] » Yes. And It is difficult if they meet the

[3:16] requirements when the burden shifts and they have to prove that there's

[3:20] something about the property that makes it not appropriate for that size. That

[3:24] is difficult. But you do have the ability through conditional use to place

[3:28] additional conditions and safeguards not related to off-site transportation or

[3:34] traffic improvements. Otherwise, uh if there are certain concerns that

[3:38] are brought to through public hearing process little

[3:44] » what >> a little funnel.

[3:47] » Yeah. The community kind of like brings it to us and then we can consider at

[3:50] least some other >> Yeah. I got and you lose that if you

[3:55] just go to the planning commission. Planning commission doesn't do a public

[3:58] hearing. You wouldn't go to the planning commission if it was

[4:02] » otherwise would

[4:07] be building zoning permit cross the table. So that would just be as

[4:12] » y0000

[4:22] square feet. It it depends on the size of the lot uses regulated by lot size.

[4:30] So um if if it's I believe it's if it's 40,000 square 40,000 square feet or

[4:36] greater than the thousand over 1,000 square feet that's process um when you

[4:42] start going down in square foot area then you're looking at it you

[4:48] know 800 square ft 6

[4:53] was an acre >> 40,000

[4:56] about 300 something >> okay I was curious like a shot.

[5:01] » Okay. All right. Uh yeah, >> good good questions.

[5:07] Okay. Uh all right. So, uh yeah, moving on. Uh course staffers

[5:17] have my uh written report and happy to answer any questions. Um

[5:23] not privileged.

[5:30] Okay. Any questions?

[5:35] » Okay. I did not uh submit a report because not much has changed from last

[5:38] months. We're working on the budget and uh processing incoming and outgoing

[5:43] employees. What's happening in the county?

[5:50] Thanks. Yes. Along with my report, the only

[5:54] thing I uh have to mention is u if uh emails from your residents about a

[6:00] large tree on road uh by the Bliss housing plan. It's in between memory

[6:06] lane and Washington Lane. This tree is extremely big. Uh there's wires

[6:11] involved. It's in the rightway. Um we're probably going to have to take it out.

[6:16] Uh we've run into this before um with up here along Taylor Rachel one time a

[6:21] couple years back. uh when we tried to get the state to take this the tree out

[6:25] was coming down over there. uh they come back and told us that we didn't take it

[6:29] out that they were going to take it out charge for it. So we ended up one of we

[6:34] actually had to shut down take this tree down because it was you know it was

[6:39] leaning pretty good and was going to fall. Anyhow, this tree is extremely

[6:42] large probably I I would I I didn't measure it out but I'm probably about 48

[6:47] inches in diameter at the base on this tree. Large oak tree that probably 3/4

[6:52] of it maybe 90% of it maybe is dead. Uh there's only a small portion of it

[6:57] that's uh has some leaves on it. Um but it's uh it's it's definitely uh at some

[7:03] point going to start coming down. Haven't had any limbs fall off it yet at

[7:06] this point, but uh it's pretty soon it's going to need something taken care of.

[7:10] So I was talking to Zach about that. We're possibly talking maybe fall here.

[7:15] We maybe get it check the bridge maybe see

[7:20] might be able to do that outside services or some possibility.

[7:25] possibility there. So if anybody's down there way looking at I mean it's it's

[7:29] it's a big tree and I'd probably say probably pricewise

[7:34] probably looking maybe I'm not sure what they charge all the time but probably

[7:38] 5,000

[7:44] » that's other than that that's all I have

[7:49] » um as developer respons

[7:55] Yeah.

[8:09] when they find

[8:27] I have a quick question. I saw in your report and Zach you mentioned this

[8:30] briefly last time about the 15 mile per hour signs on King John. Yes James

[8:36] » that those were actually never well not never it's been a long time since

[8:39] they've been enforcable. >> They never been.

[8:42] » They were never. >> Yeah. So whenever those streets were

[8:44] adopted by ordinance everything was 25 mph. At that time there was a speed bump

[8:50] or early speed bumpy. They put 15 mile signs on each side to slow cars down

[8:55] until they hit it. In the 90s, we were removed that's antic. Uh, and the signs

[8:59] were never taken out. Uh, and so they've been up and uninforceable for 20 plus

[9:06] years, plus years. So, um, as we were kind of working through uh, the field

[9:10] club issue, uh, we we identified that uh, and because it's on forceful, we

[9:15] remove them and 25. >> That makes sense. I just want to make

[9:20] sure I'm clear. I know you mentioned it on the reasoning, but that's probably

[9:24] hear about that. Make sure >> I think it was a speed bump in the 15s

[9:29] on both sides for the other street and then remove it the speed bumps. But I

[9:34] got >> Yeah. Yeah.

[9:36] » Gary was saying that was what in the 90s correct?

[9:39] » Uh when they were removed. >> Yeah. uh early

[9:44] » 2000 at some point they were last time was paying

[9:51] out. public and then we are putting up other other 25 mph signs in different

[9:57] places throughout those plans and that plan to do so. You know, if anybody gets

[10:02] any questions on why other signs are going up, it's all due to the signage

[10:06] and it's being put over here on calls. A lot of a lot of plans aren't marked

[10:12] and you know trying to probably keep up with start to place.

[10:20] They don't have an update yet on any possible solutions on field

[10:28] » about hopefully we'll find out here. >> Yeah, we're working for I think by the

[10:31] time we back next week something maybe

[10:43] » so uh this month the county hearing board has um two new applications for

[10:50] the vote for yard encroachments additions and then there's going to

[10:55] there was a table uh application for information that the planning

[11:02] commission doesn't have anything under so

[11:09] » they didn't they they didn't they asked

[11:18] and ask questions.

[11:30] » S uh you have my report. The only thing to add is we did get the blueberry patch

[11:37] playground started on Monday. So that started on time. Weather other than

[11:43] being hot has been good to us. So everything's moving smoothly. Couple

[11:48] structures have started going in already. So, everything's removed.

[11:52] Couple structures in. Um they'll work again tomorrow, be off for a few days,

[11:56] and we should have as long as weather is right, we should have a lot of

[12:01] structures in by the end of next week. Um so, it is going well.

[12:07] » Um I'll post some um pictures of progress, things like that probably on

[12:11] Friday, kind of give a weekly update as we go. Uh the only change to the closure

[12:18] is originally the sandbox was going to stay open with the heat with the shading

[12:24] over there. We closed the sandbox, closed the shade area so that they have

[12:29] somewhere to be and out of the sun a little bit. Um so that was the only

[12:34] change we made. the upper portion, the two structures up top are still open for

[12:39] public use, but it has drastically reduced people coming in. Um, I've only

[12:46] seen one or two families there from the few times I've been out on the site. So,

[12:52] that's the update on that.

[12:57] » Any other questions? Can can you touch on uh some of the the fall programming

[13:03] uh that you were trying to do for the youth? Um

[13:07] was the little builders and the littleers. Can you give also a little

[13:11] bit of an update on what that is and what you're trying to do?

[13:14] » Yeah, so we're trying to with partners with uh coach Dave Gray, we're trying to

[13:20] bring some preschool uh kindergarten kind of programming. So we're starting a

[13:26] program called Little Builders. Um that will be on Tuesdays in the activity

[13:31] center. We're going to have a morning session and afternoon session. Um and

[13:35] then we're also doing little hikers. Um which is going to be on Fridays. That's

[13:41] only going to be one session in the morning. Uh Little Builders is a

[13:48] just basically that preschool age, kindergarten age to try to get some of

[13:52] these parents. Obviously with NA being half day kindergarten, preschool is

[13:57] pretty much half day as well. It gives them an opportunity to have their child

[14:01] join into a program um when they're not in school. That's why we're offering two

[14:05] sessions of that. Uh the little hikers is going to be kind of like our eco camp

[14:11] that we run in summer, but obviously a lot shorter time. That's also to

[14:17] um that is going to be a child, parent, guardian, however, whoever

[14:23] brings them. That's going to be an integrated class with a grown-up and a

[14:27] child together. But getting out, exploring uh eco, which we are hoping to

[14:33] build their interest at this age so that they transfer into our camps when

[14:37] they're of age, which for Eco Adventure is six years old. So, a lot of them if

[14:44] they can do the class now, we can build them into uh campers for even next year.

[14:49] And then we're hoping to run it as like a monthly offering. So, most months when

[14:56] school is in probably other than really December, we're hoping to offer it as

[15:00] like four-week classes every month moving forward uh through the school

[15:04] year. try to get a little more engagement that younger group um that we

[15:09] don't get in our summer camp offerings uh because all those started six years

[15:14] old. Um so just try to dip a little younger into the age group of the

[15:18] neighborhoods. >> So is this new or just like have have we

[15:24] had this before? >> No.

[15:26] » No. So that's new, right? >> Yeah. years

[15:30] probably 10 15 years ago they used to run a program that was called kinder

[15:36] sport which was again more athletic sport based for that for a younger group

[15:42] this is nothing athletic based it is eco and it is building dexterity things like

[15:51] that um so it's it's a little it's also a different grouping in that as well um

[15:58] might get a different kind of group in, but also at three, four, five years old,

[16:04] they're not that despite what some parents think, they're not star athletes

[16:08] yet. So, it it gives them a broader horizon of avenues to explore.

[16:13] » So, this this information has been posted on the on the website, right? the

[16:18] can and residents can easily get that information.

[16:23] » All the descriptions are on our program guide, the pricing, the times, all that

[16:27] is available and they can sign up now. Um, and then like I said, we will start

[16:32] the first week of October. >> Y

[16:34] » for that. So that way it gave us a couple week to send emails, promote it.

[16:40] You know, anytime you run something brand new, it takes a little buildup.

[16:45] Um, so we're hoping Like you said, we get a few enrollments

[16:50] this time. Parents will talk, parents will spread the word, and we'll continue

[16:54] to grow the program throughout the year. >> I know a lot of young parents will be

[16:58] happy, you know, to have this because, you know, usually, you know, and

[17:04] preschool is just half day, you know, they always work, but like they can send

[17:09] their kids.

[17:14] As long as there's no reason not to, I might pull some information off the

[17:17] site, then shoot it out to to my incl.

[17:24] It's all available there. Um there's some description on the Facebook post,

[17:30] but especially like Little Hikers, there's a lot more you'll see on the

[17:35] website when you click into the program. Um because that one our hope

[17:43] is that we can eventually start working into like family eco so that we can

[17:49] bring out the whole family at one time for hikes, things like that.

[17:54] » Um and grow it into that eventually as well.

[17:56] » Be awesome. >> A little different. Yeah, probably more

[17:59] evening class when the older kids are out of school. Sure. But this is step

[18:03] one. We'll see how this >> be a taste. see how this works and kind

[18:07] of grow from there. >> Awesome.

[18:12] » I have a question. Could you like advertise like through the school

[18:15] district as well? Because I feel like for example like back when I was younger

[18:19] like my parents would often look at like school newsletters to see if there's

[18:23] anything to >> I know school district does like their

[18:27] weekly newsletters. They are usually pretty strict if it's not a school

[18:34] related function or a district related function. So they will generally put out

[18:40] like the sports or the clubs that are specifically aligned with NA. We partner

[18:48] with NA, but we're not really an NA

[18:54] use, you know, we we don't have like NA doesn't have any fields or any buildings

[18:58] within the furrow um that we do crossover programming.

[19:04] We can certainly ask especially for like you're saying that kindergarten group. I

[19:08] just know and every it usually goes through the PFA, PTO, whatever each

[19:14] building individually calls themselves, and they all have different rules um for

[19:19] what can and cannot go into their newsletters. So, it's a little a little

[19:24] tricky, but we can certainly at least give the ads. Doesn't hurt to ask ever.

[19:29] » At the bottom of the district, we can community flyer section, which has like

[19:34] Boy Scouts, other stuff that's not necessarily NA related. I know there's a

[19:38] fee for that. That might >> be fun.

[19:58] Okay, my report um just off of what Zach was saying with the blueberry patch

[20:03] talking with the contractor today. He was telling I should be able to have our

[20:07] guys in middle to late next week to get our drainage in. We should have most of

[20:12] the structures so we'll get our drainage in. That way he can finish up his work

[20:16] the following week or so after and hopefully be button up in a couple weeks

[20:19] here. Um, and other than that, the golf course uh revenue was down for August

[20:26] just because the amount of rain. We lost a lot of days with no carts and air on

[20:31] the side. I mean, just the the we all know the multiple backtoback rains that

[20:35] we had. Uh, really saturated the course. Um, we just lost 20 days of revenue. We

[20:42] were down about 1,400 rounds per compared to last year, which is a lot.

[20:47] But you just you just you lose and don't get back. But overall, the course is in

[20:51] decent shape. There's some there's some minor issues, just old farm drains and

[20:56] where water's just coming out of places that never have before, but but for the

[21:00] most part, the course is in good shape and uh

[21:04] is still going strong. So, any other questions?

[21:08] » Can you give an update on Acorn, please? Yeah. So, Acorn, uh, especially this

[21:13] week with the help of some of some of Gary's help and his guys, uh, the around

[21:19] the bathroom, the, um, the concrete's in, uh,

[21:23] the public works help with some of the back filling. Um, so that should be we

[21:27] still finish up the landscaping here shortly. Uh, the bridges are all

[21:31] connected, so we'll be able in the next couple weeks finish the plantings and

[21:35] the ribarian buffer that we need to install. And uh so we're inching ever

[21:41] closer to being complete. Um there's some some uh some decks, overlook decks

[21:47] on the trails to build. That's probably the last big structure that we put in.

[21:51] And other than that, we're close. I'm just talking to Sean. At some point here

[21:56] soon, we want to walk through make sure we have all our fees crossed and we'll

[22:01] be set hopefully by end of the year if the grant runs out. So hopefully we

[22:05] don't have to push again. the deadline.

[22:17] » Thank you. Um actually not much to add to our report this evening. Obviously

[22:21] big one um out there is the public work garage opening for the end

[22:27] of the month. So we'll have that for discussion at this meeting next month.

[22:30] Hopefully the favorable number for award. Um

[22:36] from that uh a few miscellaneous development items we did close out the

[22:41] um seal code project across the standard u. So that was complete

[22:48] and I think other than that answer

[23:00] » happy to answer any questions about my report or anything else.

[23:08] » Okay. Um,

[23:14] » yeah. Should be it for everybody. >> And I have a quick question for you. On

[23:18] your report, you talked about the fire inspection reports and the $25 fee for

[23:23] pass fail. Is that whether you pass or fail or only if you fail?

[23:28] » Pass or fail. >> It's a $25 fee for the matter.

[23:32] » Because one of the things that tends to happens whenever you don't do that is

[23:35] you become their maintenance manager, right? And that's opportunity.

[23:42] » Maybe we did a reinspection and pass your payment twice,

[23:45] » right? >> Or how many times

[23:51] it's the same?

[23:58] We good? Yeah, everyone can go

[24:16] » over there. >> Yeah, let's go.

[24:22] » Yeah, sure. Um, you guys have my reports. Uh, MS4, everybody's still on

[24:26] permanent angle. working through comments now hopefully to have those

[24:30] resolved by the end of the year. Um for the

[24:36] uh Dur Road grant that was submitted on time. The uh GEDF uh I made an

[24:43] oversight. Um I thought I could apply for anything under 100,000. It was

[24:46] $150,000 minimum. uh was able to apply using the same uh grant package that we

[24:54] did for the multimmoal grant which was 276,000.

[24:58] Uh talked to the county, they're fine with us uh submitting a resolution late.

[25:02] So we'll have an updated one on this uh regular meeting um which I believe is

[25:07] already on there. Uh this there's no match component to this. So this is just

[25:11] us trying to find funding. Um but we have that executive session. Uh Kathy

[25:18] and Aaron uh met with the uh the regional discussion for deer management.

[25:22] I wasn't here. I was on vacation. Um the uh the group of managers, so this is

[25:27] McLaren, Liz, uh Hampton, Ross, and ourselves all have deer issues. Um which

[25:34] seems to be the North Hill region's problem. Um and the discussion was to

[25:38] try to bring this into the North Hills COG uh to get that regional organization

[25:43] to get everybody on the same playing field. Everyone's doing something to try

[25:47] and mitigate uh deer management because we're going from one community to the

[25:51] next and bouncing from round to round. Uh and so trying to get everybody

[25:55] playing by the same set of rules and then from there working to to get

[25:59] permits through the state to to advance some sort of sharpshooting program. Um

[26:05] Another one for executive session. Uh

[26:14] um the hedges. Uh I'll let Andy kind of run on that um here in a second. Um but

[26:21] that that's my report. You guys have everything. I'll start getting the the

[26:25] drop down items. The uh Northland library, we talked a little bit before

[26:29] that the uh the articles incorporation were going to expire. Um they sent over

[26:34] all the information. Max talked to their lawyer. So I don't know if you have any

[26:39] anything to add. >> Just municipalities authorities act.

[26:42] Municipal authorities have 50 years life to renew them. Their board needs to

[26:48] authorize it first and then the incorporating municipalities pass

[26:51] resolution resolution just uh they'll take care of it from there. they have to

[26:57] apply articles of amendment to purple states that will get approved for

[27:02] another 50 years to

[27:06] » um next would be the uh the hedges on the corner of West Englemore and Brans

[27:11] Road kind of went you okay this is your your base

[27:14] » this this was actually one of the NOVs that we had back when at the exact same

[27:18] time the Oakley plane situation went in so we decided we tap the plane situation

[27:22] then come back and revisit this so this double gear more growth on these trees.

[27:27] But the bottom line is when you're coming down West Singar Road to Branch

[27:30] School at that intersection. Um there's a radius on the right hand side. The

[27:35] stop signs back in those trees. Um and they're doing some trimming on it right

[27:41] now. There was a concern that the stop sign's in the wrong place and uh so on

[27:46] so forth. So the bottom line is we've got a dangerous situation there that you

[27:51] can't really be a pedestrian at intersection and all walk around those

[27:55] trees because there's nothing on the shoulder that you can walk by on certain

[27:58] areas of it. Um, >> okay.

[28:01] » If I can make a comment, I mean, I live right three doors down from there and

[28:08] nobody can walk on any aspect of Western and those people who live at the corner

[28:18] uh planted those trees for a buffer for sound. And no, nobody's walking there

[28:25] because there's no sidewalks on West Sigma Road. So, I'm a little bit

[28:29] confused. >> Again, the trees are in the public

[28:31] easement where they should not be. It's the bottom line.

[28:35] » The line of sight is the biggest >> the line of sight is our biggest issue.

[28:37] » I go that the stop sign is in the wrong place. Actually makes the situation even

[28:43] worse on our end because when I looked it up, it is in the wrong place. stop

[28:47] sign should be moved closer to Grant to West Road and and Branch Hole which

[28:54] means it's even further around that turn which now sight line situation be tree

[28:59] trunks that have to be removed not just tree branches

[29:03] and that meets the state DT that information is in the packet.

[29:07] » How many trees?

[29:11] » Uh it's about nine trees if you remove the stop sign.

[29:15] If you lose a stop sign the way it is now, you could probably keep the trees,

[29:20] but the brush underneath needs pretty much cut back.

[29:24] » Yeah. >> The minimum height for a stop sign is 9

[29:26] ft. So, you need to make sure when they're coming down the grade, you can

[29:29] see this little stop sign. So the stop signs for location

[29:35] you could trim the trees down to

[29:41] » they could be potentially be trimmed all the way back to the trunk in probably

[29:44] most cases. Okay. >> If we do not move the sign,

[29:48] » if you do not move the sign, >> if we move the sign, it's going to take

[29:52] it around the turn enough that probably the one hardwood tree in the front yard

[29:55] there that I marked on that diagram as well as some of those pine trees will

[29:59] wind up just basically on that wall see from the 300T site distance.

[30:06] » So there's potential in that space there's potential for some trees.

[30:11] There's the potential for some. Again, I'm operating off of our GIS apps and

[30:17] everything that's on here. I went in the property when I got the ordinance when

[30:22] we adopted the road from CAP that happened in 2010. I can't find anything

[30:26] from 2010 that there was a survey done as to exactly where the easement was at

[30:29] that time. You go all the way back to the late 70s, early 80s, there's a

[30:34] survey there that's representing a different easement. But I don't know

[30:38] what has changed. We've got a current survey there to say why the county is

[30:43] showing that as a 50 on their GIS's.

[30:48] But either way, even if it was a slightly lesser easement, all that would

[30:53] grow is you still have the branches still slipping in the intersection.

[30:56] » Trees planted in the late 80s. >> Sorry,

[31:01] » the trees were planted in the late 80s. Uh, that's the

[31:06] » 2007, but they're in the pictures. >> Google Maps, right?

[31:10] » Yeah. >> Yeah. 2007.

[31:13] » And they were a little hard to do this. >> I have it in here off of the uh review.

[31:18] » Yeah. 2007. It's page seven on the side. And just so this was a county road until

[31:27] 2010 just because we are on it maintaining it. Otherwise, we just it's

[31:33] somewhat unusual, but something they have to do. They essentially dedicated

[31:36] it to us. So, we were not involved in the original laying out or inspections

[31:41] or anything that we do for Burough Street. And say, I mean, I'm just

[31:46] refreshing back to 2010 when we did that. There was no oral survey, whatever

[31:52] was attached to the ordinance. Um, been about it. It was existing road. It's

[31:58] just became our responsibility. You're talking about or brand school.

[32:05] » Brand school is not ours at all. >> And this all started

[32:12] in 2025. They had a NOV for >> the NOV both for trees in the public

[32:18] easement as well as branches of trees reaching into the east.

[32:22] » You could see stuff. >> And they cut the trees back at that

[32:25] point. I would say >> they did do the significant cutting at

[32:28] at that time where they notched back in that you can see

[32:31] » and I remember it was completely different because I know the people who

[32:35] have that lot and they planted very small trees in the late 80s and they

[32:43] then grew obviously um so I'm remembering a very different scenario.

[32:50] » Well I have photographs here from Google.

[32:53] » Do you have the the small was

[32:59] packed on Google. >> Do we have a replacement like we had oak

[33:04] leaf some big thing?

[33:11] » No idea. >> Um,

[33:15] » yeah. Yeah, they're just they've gotten too big. We need to figure out what

[33:17] we're going to do, right? Whether that be we're talking in circles. Um whether

[33:21] that be we asked them to plant behind their bushes now, let those grow up and

[33:25] then remove what's what's in the area or based on our ordinances enforce what

[33:31] should be enforced. Um or you know ignore it and continue ask them to try

[33:35] and trim back until it gets to the point where these trades are too big. But that

[33:39] can't happen.

[33:45] I think one of the possibilities is to lollipop and so like this

[33:51] » and so that preserves the trees right where they are. Y

[33:54] » and just take the lower branches down >> specifically on West

[34:00] site. >> Yeah.

[34:01] » I think if that's a viable option that would be good because I know the trailer

[34:05] currently I drive that twice a day.

[34:09] It's gotten better, but it's it's still less than ideal. And you know,

[34:14] especially if you look at some of the stuff up closer to the church now that

[34:18] way, was it James? >> James, you know, that's the the concern

[34:22] that we got from a resident from James Drive. We can't see up uh because that

[34:27] hatch is so high now that if someone comes out of Westing fast, you're trying

[34:32] to come out. Uh there's a noticeable blind spot because they're stuffed in

[34:35] the right way. I think if it's if it's agreeable to but

[34:39] it's worth trying to lollipop lollipop at least if that works before you start

[34:45] » but if the purpose of them is a buffer from the road lollipops open

[34:49] » well it's no longer >> but if you remember from our our prep

[34:52] ball sound study expert trees don't you know blocks ends

[34:58] lane >> blocks line yes

[35:01] » I mean there's also the conditions and lots requirements and zoning which was

[35:04] exciting to just want to talk better than I

[35:10] would affect.

[35:16] » Is it similar to the Oakley compromise, right?

[35:18] » It's very close. >> It's a burrow strategy or position

[35:22] go around treat.

[35:27] » So, all we're doing is public safety. We're saying lollipop the trees. We're

[35:31] saving the trees. We're not taking them out. Theresa actually, you can see in

[35:35] the picture, they're on their I think they were put on their property

[35:37] originally moved on to the >> most of them were on their property.

[35:42] Yeah, exactly. They look like they were >> probably in the easement based on the

[35:47] information from GIS. >> Yeah.

[35:49] » But the bottom line is they've grown out for all those years.

[35:53] » Yeah. I mean, I like the approach of let's save the trees and save little

[35:59] lollipop. Okay. So just so everyone knows the

[36:05] lollipop is cured back. >> Yeah.

[36:07] » Right. >> But it saves the it saves the tree. All

[36:09] you're doing is taking branch stuff to make the line of sight so it's not in

[36:13] the way. >> The alternative is full removal.

[36:15] » Are you are we saying Well, I don't know if that's the alternative. But are we

[36:18] saying that they have to clear the entire bottom of the tree or they can

[36:22] just carve out one side?

[36:25] » Whatever's for the one you start up see. >> Yeah. Which is different. clearing all

[36:32] the way. >> Yeah. It wouldn't be the whole

[36:34] » My thought would be the the external side, right?

[36:37] » Yeah. So they can still leave everything down to the ground on the

[36:40] » intern far side West Ingamar and Brold

[36:46] trim back to the all the way back to the base. So then

[36:51] you've got your blind side. Yeah. I think we we say the trees in we've got a

[36:55] blind side. So we would ideally >> Are we okay with that approach?

[37:00] » Yes. That sounds like the alternative for moving.

[37:02] » Don't like that at all. Still >> I don't think it's accurate to say that

[37:06] is the alternative. There are multiple alternatives. But

[37:10] » so hold on. The goal here is sight lines both as you're coming down West toward

[37:16] Brand School and if you're coming northish

[37:20] » road like if you're turning off of Brand

[37:24] School, I'm sorry, off of James Drive onto Brand School. Headache north.

[37:28] » Yeah, that's right. I the the three-way intersection isn't really a problem,

[37:31] right? It's a three-way stop. Everyone's stopping, right? You're going to see

[37:34] them when you're stopping. My main issue is is James Drive. You

[37:38] can't see. Uh >> so everything just comes out like from

[37:41] nowhere into the line of sight is >> Yeah.

[37:44] » Okay. >> So they're ducking out slowly to try and

[37:47] see them, but then >> it's all the way out to the the road

[37:50] already, so you can't see anything. All the cars on West are backed up hidden

[37:54] behind there. So those people are blindly pulling out. uh with the hope

[37:58] that whoever's on West Indian bar is coming out slow. though

[38:02] » may not be the case when you've got the when you've got the four-way stops,

[38:05] right? People are taking their turns. Yeah. Somebody's bound to turn to get

[38:09] their turn. Pay attention to James turn. >> Okay. So, James Drive is our primary

[38:14] concern here. >> Correct.

[38:15] » And we are needing to balance >> we still need to be able to see from

[38:20] Westmore the stop sign, right? Which so that's got to be turned back to keep

[38:24] that line of sight. Then on the opposite side of for James, you can't see

[38:29] anything because of >> right. I just am very hesitant to get

[38:32] into the business and we talked about this admium

[38:36] going through the oak thing. I'm very hesitant to go around the burrow and

[38:39] start saying all these trees have to go. >> Yeah.

[38:42] » Because they're in the rightway or have been for how many years? Do they need to

[38:45] eventually be on the rideway? Yes. And if it's a public safety issue, we need

[38:49] to come up with some ideas about it. You also keep in mind these folks that's

[38:54] huge for their property value. for my quality of life.

[38:58] » Uh so >> my thought is to ask

[39:00] » we need the plant back, right? >> Yeah. To already start when we

[39:05] » to prepare for the inevitable that these are going to have to go.

[39:07] » We talked about this too, like okay, plant a second row now.

[39:11] » Yeah. >> And then while we're waiting on whatever

[39:14] happens to the other tree to at least have get that growing time. Yeah.

[39:17] » That might be something we need to at least talk to them about. But u in the

[39:22] meantime, I think trimming, especially the ones along Brand School Road, is a

[39:27] reasonable start. >> Yeah.

[39:29] » Yes. I'm with you. I don't want to experiment on cut down, but I want to

[39:33] get on because you know, >> I mean, have we had I understand pulling

[39:39] out of James Drive is tricky and we want to prevent accidents before they happen,

[39:43] right? We don't want to be reactive to accidents, but short of trimming the

[39:47] trees, do we seriously have a very serious safety issue.

[39:52] » Again, that's not the standard for enforcing our ordinances. I realize

[39:56] » I think the potential is very much there.

[39:58] » We're just balancing. >> Yeah. Coming out of nowhere, the only

[40:02] time to react. Line of sight is bad. That's just ask bad. Yeah. It's a bad

[40:07] design. >> And Oakleaf was was never a line of

[40:10] sight >> issue. Yeah, as an approach with the

[40:13] wall that was low the trees in the right of way into the street top of the

[40:18] utility line. Are there utility lines on that side?

[40:24] » No, now I'm talking about

[40:31] » But yeah, that other ones that we've had in terms of

[40:35] issues have been sighteline issues on Bane. One guy bushes were coming into

[40:42] there. um that they're

[40:48] didn't have that issue, >> right?

[40:52] » Okay. So, please

[40:57] » try that in that in that deck. The very last picture

[41:03] solution and Gary isn't here, but I already

[41:06] talked to Gary about it. The very last picture is actually club and sandburst.

[41:11] There's a 70 foot east there. those trees sticking up. It's in bad shape. I

[41:14] had conversation on the property over there and if uh we pick them up when we

[41:19] do the brush chipping this fall, we can have them for the most part. So, we'll

[41:22] get that one clean up for one or two of you mentioned that one too. So, I'm

[41:26] working more on getting that accelerating solution rather than

[41:29] decision. I think you got that one wrapped up.

[41:31] » Wait, what was what's happening with that one? You're taking the bush out or

[41:35] » take the two pine trees out, leave the rest of the flower. It's the very last

[41:38] one. >> Yeah,

[41:41] » okay. But I talked to a property owner. He said if you guys want to take the

[41:44] trees and do your chip. >> Okay.

[41:46] » As long as he's still venable for that that one. So

[41:50] » that's good. Well, that property is a little bit different. They're they're

[41:53] kind of protected by like the slope of the land anyway. It's not really

[41:57] protecting a lot. >> Nobody's turning head putting headlights

[41:59] really. Well, one direction I guess >> may be coming.

[42:02] » But you still have your shrubberies. You just won't have big big pods.

[42:06] » And again, it was the property owner that has the father. I talked to Gary

[42:10] and Gary 10 minutes from my guys change

[42:15] our question.

[42:19] » Okay. >> Yeah. Um last thing, uh the D growing

[42:23] greener grant. Um Reach had applied and been awarded a grant by D back in 2023

[42:29] for Fish Run. Um that was set to expire here uh in October of 2026. All

[42:37] constructions be done. uh we haven't started construction or even been um

[42:43] because of all the property issues that we've had uh that have now been resolved

[42:48] um our amended uh uh permit application with BP hopefully

[42:54] that'll be passed through soon um so I requested an extension uh for a year in

[43:01] order to try to get this work done I I asked for more than a year uh the DT

[43:05] told me that only thing they'd be willing to give is one here our our

[43:09] completion date for fish run would be 10 927

[43:14] uh which uh makes our timelines complicated with

[43:18] my intention to use penvest funding uh for this project um this project is

[43:24] estimated at uh $779,000 $200,000 uh is being given to us for the

[43:32] D for a grant uh and so as we get into budget season um region and I are going

[43:38] to have to really uh dig into this and and determine um what our best course of

[43:43] action is. Uh for us to be able to get this project done based on that timeline

[43:47] to keep this grant, uh we're going to have to move to bid probably February of

[43:53] 2026 or 2027, which would not give us the amount of time we need to pend

[43:57] funding. Uh so that would mean either one, uh we don't do a whole lot of

[44:01] capital improvements next year than storm water uh and really trim back our

[44:06] budgets. uh we find extern external sourcing uh via uh a loan from someone

[44:12] other than Penvest uh or some combination of both uh or we abandon the

[44:18] $200,000 grant uh and go through the Penvest process because we know that the

[44:23] interest rates are are really good. Um and so that decision will be something

[44:28] that we'll talk about uh as we move to the budget process

[44:32] » as a project.

[44:36] » Yeah. Yeah. We can't say that >> as a

[44:41] » just when you thought you got the budget moving in the right direction.

[44:44] » Yeah. The wheels. >> Yeah. So um you know what's the rate of

[44:51] department versus >> uh

[44:55] I think this is what% first five years another four the next

[45:02] one. Um so but once we have the budget set and I

[45:08] can kind of see how much money we have disposable uh if we trim the fat is an

[45:14] aren't essential um where we come land. So

[45:18] » okay we'll see what our options are. Yeah, but those will be uh you know you

[45:22] guys will be proposed options to go through the process. Just keeping you

[45:24] guys in the loop of uh where we kind of stand right now

[45:31] for

[45:36] » uh no the rest is okay. Uh the next item is a high school visit. So who would

[45:42] like to go visit the high school? This was a part of our

[45:48] » council. Shaunie um had emailed some dates. She's um and Elena, did she speak

[45:56] with you? Are you involved with this as well?

[45:59] » Okay. Because that's what we wanted to make sure that you were involved as the

[46:02] new junior council person. >> Um she was looking at Monday, November

[46:07] 2nd, Thursday, November 5th. You know, these

[46:11] are all options. uh Friday, November 6th, Monday the 9th, Wednesday the 11th,

[46:18] or Monday the 23rd. She also gave me Thanksg.

[46:25] » Um she indicated the lunch periods are 10:33 to 12:45.

[46:32] So her thought was 10:00 a.m. to 1:15. I'm guessing

[46:37] she thought you'd get there before the kids and stay until they clear out.

[46:44] » Was the intention to have, you know, x number of us there the whole time or

[46:49] kind of stagger it or I know

[46:54] » don't want

[46:57] sunshine by saying if two people want to go, I can go as a third.

[47:04] Yeah, I'll go. >> Everyone's here.

[47:08] » I'll go now before my children get there. [laughter]

[47:12] » Make fun of you. >> What were the days?

[47:16] » But yeah. Uh, can you repeat the dates, please?

[47:17] » Yep. Monday, November 2nd. >> No.

[47:20] » Thursday the 5th. >> That's election. I mean,

[47:23] » the day before >> November 3rd.

[47:26] » Thursday the 5th. >> Thursday the 5th. Friday the 6th.

[47:30] Monday the 9th. Wednesday the 11th, Monday the 23rd, which is Thanksgiving

[47:36] week. Fifth or sixth is good for me.

[47:44] » Can anybody

[47:51] » Yeah, school's out.

[47:56] » That wouldn't make sense.

[48:01] Sure.

[48:04] She didn't look at the school calendar. >> Personally, she's had Saturdays.

[48:09] She looked at the wrong.

[48:16] » All right. So, she's looking for counsel, you know, to choose the date so

[48:21] she can she and Elena can get back to the principal to I guess get it

[48:28] scheduled so everybody knows. So, do you want to choose a date tonight? Do you

[48:34] want to talk about it again next meeting in two weeks?

[48:39] » If I had my brothers, I'd choose Thursday. I'm off on Thursday.

[48:44] » There's only one Thursday. What? What? >> Yeah.

[48:54] » And I'm sorry, what time did she say? >> 10.

[48:56] » She said 10:00 a.m. to 1:15.

[49:01] » The lunch periods are 10:33 to 12:45.

[49:07] » Good question. >> Donnie and I

[49:12] just report it on something. $250.

[49:16] » So if you have three people, I assume you don't need me.

[49:19] » Not unless you just really want to. >> I didn't come a high school teacher for

[49:25] read. >> Okay. So

[49:28] first Laura Curtis, Thursday the 5th.

[49:33] » Two council people and a mayor is uh >> not

[49:38] four council me. >> Okay. Elena, what I'll do and you can as

[49:42] well. I will since um Ashani had emailed I will respond to her email with this

[49:47] information. I will copy your junior council person email as well.

[49:51] » Sounds good. >> You think you don't want to go? It's

[49:54] right up your alley. All >> teach about

[49:58] science class last time.

[50:05] They must have been thrilled. >> He did his diligence.

[50:12] my days. I was always grateful for whenever there was either Bill and I

[50:15] video or guest speaker. >> Yeah. You guys enjoy it.

[50:22] » Okay. Okay. All right. Sounds good. Uh council mayor first.

[50:28] » Yeah. I'll just kind of touch on the chief target. We were talking last time

[50:34] about the uh snow on bread with the uh the gas line replacement. That's uh

[50:39] while it's still a bit of a mess, it actually has kind of exceeded my

[50:43] expectations and there's not been an overwhelming amount of grief that I've

[50:46] gotten directly from the neighbors or anything. They're doing their best. You

[50:50] know, I assume they're going to patch it up and, you know, blow a tire on what

[50:54] they have left, but uh craft control is decent for for what they're having to

[50:59] do. So, all in my home stretch, my boys, pretty much what I have.

[51:08] you know, do you support or anything, but do you

[51:14] » any questions? Me and Shai were talking the other day, and I know she mentioned

[51:18] to you guys the creation of like some sort of junior council thing, like not

[51:24] just the council person, but having like a group of youth. And I thought that was

[51:27] really interesting because I was like down in North Carolina this summer with

[51:31] like the department of state and we got to go into Kerry, North Carolina and

[51:35] they had like a town view council and we got to do some activities with them and

[51:39] I just thought the concept was really cool because they gave a lot of service

[51:43] opportunities and like civic, you know, engagement opportunities to youth. Like

[51:48] they got to volunteer, do a lot of like park cleanup and like really interact

[51:52] with their elected officials there. And like it was like pretty cool because

[51:56] there was like 900 plus like members. They're like one of the largest like

[52:00] teen youth councils in like the United States. So I was like wondering if

[52:06] something like this comes to Christian like in our group.

[52:10] » I think we we touched on that a couple meetings ago with Shnie. There's there's

[52:14] no legal reason that we couldn't have maybe some of the unsuccessful

[52:17] applicants get together start a club and go out and do things in the community

[52:22] and talk with each other. you >> union contracts. So

[52:27] » now we talked about that there there aren't a lot of things for them to do.

[52:32] » Yeah. Yeah. Because like we had discussed about

[52:35] » post fireworks for uh Oh, that's where we have we're doing clean up, right? But

[52:40] we call the worst guys in for overtime. We do clean up the next day.

[52:44] » So can't take work away from the union once it's settled.

[52:51] Yeah, in your to work state compared to the other state.

[52:55] Maybe the first step >> to start is if you think of some ideas

[52:58] that you might like to see the >> group do and then we could kind of

[53:03] reverse engineer it to see if that's something that would be feasible both

[53:06] legally within our you know contracts and that we would actually

[53:11] » we've had like uh projects we worked on like whether that be the uh Boy Scouts,

[53:15] Girl Scouts uh where they propose projects which are advancements uh which

[53:20] isn't so much maintaining or maintenance that the union doesn't really have a

[53:23] problem with. So >> like the community garden that was

[53:26] correct, but when you take away from like the

[53:29] regular work, >> that's where you have problems. So

[53:32] » I don't think you're talking about just manual labor, right? Like

[53:36] » be like brainstorm and come up with ideas of like things you can do to

[53:41] » Yeah, I'll do that.

[53:47] » Yeah.

[53:52] » Yeah. me. Okay. Well, I've got a couple easy things and then the elephant. Um,

[54:00] so first, uh, there's a veterans breakfast coming up. Um, I understand

[54:05] that Dennis, uh, was very passionate about that. So, I'm I was supposed to be

[54:12] out of town that weekend, but I'm kind of working through things and I might,

[54:16] uh, go do a welcome and then head out of town. But, I'm working through that um,

[54:21] because I know it's important to the community. Um,

[54:25] uh, I also need to get with, um, Donna or Zach, I'm not quite sure who, um, to

[54:32] get some social media out there for hunger month of September. Um, since

[54:38] made that proclamation at the last meeting, we need to get some stuff out

[54:41] there on social media now that we are into September. Um,

[54:45] » yeah, just send it to to Don at CCB and we'll get it set up.

[54:49] » Perfect. Thank you. Um, I also had email just prior to this meeting um from a

[54:57] group and I talked to Chief uh Leech um it is a group um that

[55:06] honors and respects first responders each year um and they are planning this

[55:14] in um I can't remember the date but um I am

[55:20] working with the chief to make sure that we have some police

[55:24] there. It's going to be at the fire station um that they want to honor first

[55:30] responders, both fire and police. So, um I'm working on that to coordinate.

[55:35] » Is it a group within Franklin Park or it's a larger group and they just come

[55:38] into communities? >> Let me tell you, um I know that this has

[55:44] been going on for like nine years. Um and uh she was was very familiar with

[55:53] it. >> Um

[55:54] » that's fine. I'm just curious. You can >> It is It is a Hindu group.

[55:59] » Okay. >> Um

[56:03] it is a Hindu group HSS. Um it's a nonprofit socio cultural

[56:11] organization. Um, and they celebrate each year

[56:18] honoring first responders and so we'll do that. So, um,

[56:25] » sorry to interrupt you. September hunger month or anti-hunger month. I'm not sure

[56:30] the exact time. >> Yeah, sorry.

[56:31] » Might be something that Elena can help with.

[56:33] » Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll get in touch with you. Um,

[56:38] okay. This this um first responder recognition is Thursday, September 10th

[56:45] at 7 p.m. at the fire department.

[56:52] Um okay. And then um who wants to have a cup of coffee at

[56:58] four quarters? [laughter]

[57:05] So Chris and I talked about this a little bit

[57:09] last week. I was a little too late till I got support

[57:15] for a little bit picture and thoughts here

[57:21] the owners reach out to Kristen and I actually will probably join them which

[57:26] should be wise right

[57:30] um so just thinking through some of this a little bit more and just go through

[57:36] you know compromise hub for it. Um, and just looking through

[57:44] past emails, one of the things for setting all that out. So, your inbox

[57:49] should have like all the sort of documents. Um, you know, a couple of

[57:53] things and you can chime in as well, but just looking through what they're trying

[57:59] to do. vision is not what is best as important like discussion like you know

[58:04] people have different ideas or what not but we have a long stating not long

[58:09] stating but a long property has a lot stated right so what is interesting this

[58:14] person is I guess the requirements or whatnot

[58:19] right so you kind of want to know start this and think through like hey is there

[58:24] something to think through here in terms of we don't have very many of these but

[58:28] we also situations, right? So, do you require a

[58:32] full land development or is it land development like express?

[58:42] » Okay. I had like 10 pages of but >> do you mind if I jump in real quick? Go

[58:46] for it. Um Max and I had a conversation after the meeting last time and I just

[58:50] wanted to kind of reiterate what I what Max and I talked about

[58:54] » um along these same lines. At our last meeting when Mr. Cooper spoke at the

[58:58] end. We obviously saw he was all very passionate and frustrated. And for my

[59:03] part, I regret and apologize to Matt that Max that I did not step in and stop

[59:08] that before it went as long and as far as it did in the wrong direction. Um, I

[59:13] regret because first of all, I strongly believe and still after having gone back

[59:17] and watched the video again, I strongly believe that

[59:22] u Mr. Cooper had a misunderstanding of what Max said and what Max meant. And I

[59:27] wish I would have stepped in and said and said that in the moment instead of

[59:30] letting it go on as long as it did. So I did talk to Mr. Browning, not Mr. Mr.

[59:35] Browning after the meeting. He called me and I said as much to him. I said, "I

[59:39] think you all have a strong misunderstanding of what Max said and

[59:43] what Max meant and Max's intent." And he said, "Well, you know, this is what

[59:47] people were telling us that was being said." And I said, "Okay, well, I was in

[59:51] there. I disagree strongly." and he said, "Well, okay, we'll go back and

[59:55] watch it." I haven't spoken to him again since then. But anyway, before we get

[59:58] before we jump into this, I just wanted to publicly once again say, "Max, I

[1:00:02] apologize for not attempting at least to stop that

[1:00:06] sooner."

[1:00:10] » And you handled yourself tully as you always do. You didn't need me in any

[1:00:14] way. But you it was not right to let that go on that long and in that

[1:00:19] direction especially feeling that it was he was had been

[1:00:24] misinformed about Lisa. >> And as an aside I'm not either

[1:00:28] deliberating nor participating this conversation

[1:00:32] » because I filed a you know a refusal and so

[1:00:37] » now back to the meat. Um,

[1:00:42] okay. So,

[1:00:46] what are we trying to do? Are we trying to as a burrow

[1:00:54] give every opportunity for them

[1:00:59] to just have goals they cannot meet and we are looking for reasons why they

[1:01:06] cannot let this happen? Or are we trying to facilitate a

[1:01:13] conversation so that we can both sides understand

[1:01:18] what their vision is? And all they're asking

[1:01:24] for is to start small.

[1:01:31] And then if by chance they make this a hu a huge

[1:01:39] success and they have to expand the parking lot and they have to do

[1:01:43] different things then okay then they will have the money to do it. But right

[1:01:48] now all they are trying to do is start with a small coffee shop and dump and

[1:01:56] they have their variance um which did not have any conditions

[1:02:01] attached to it in writing um from my understanding and they just want a

[1:02:08] permit to start. I mean, I have not heard

[1:02:15] any negative comments from any neighbors,

[1:02:21] any residents of the community. We are here. If you look at the org

[1:02:26] chart, and I've said this before, who's at the top of the org chart? The

[1:02:31] residents. The residents want this and they want to make this happen from a

[1:02:39] small business owner perspective.

[1:02:45] It seems to me that we are just looking for ways like, "Oh, no, no, no, no.

[1:02:51] Here's another ordinance. No, no, no, no. Here's another ordinance." instead

[1:02:55] of facilitating with a resident to make this happen for the community.

[1:03:03] I I I don't know what um council's greatest fear is if if council

[1:03:13] would decide, okay, grant them a building permit so they can

[1:03:17] get started on their small their small vision that will hopefully grow.

[1:03:24] What's what what is what's the biggest fear? And why can't we come to some

[1:03:31] understanding of okay if that fear that biggest fear happens comes to fruition

[1:03:39] all right let's put a condition on it but they'll fix it if that fear comes to

[1:03:44] be I it just it comes back to their argument to me is common sense and what

[1:03:54] the community wants and common sense and looking for all these little reasons

[1:04:04] just frustrates them. And I know it frustrates everybody in this room,

[1:04:09] but I don't think we're using common sense.

[1:04:13] And I am not I do not believe I I caution myself

[1:04:21] that I am not naive that they are pulling one over.

[1:04:28] I've met with them and talked with them enough times that they have a heart for

[1:04:36] bringing coffee and deli sandwiches to Franklin Park and the burrow is not

[1:04:42] helping them. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But

[1:04:51] I I think we need to have some common sense. It it's really hard to issue

[1:04:56] permits. No applications have ever been made.

[1:04:58] » Whatever it is >> for building or for development.

[1:05:02] I don't know how we're supposed to give cart blocks per building if if we don't

[1:05:06] get anything on. >> They're not building. They are not

[1:05:09] changing the footprint. >> Like I said, they're not changing the

[1:05:13] footprint. What do they >> I don't know. You tell me. They don't

[1:05:17] know >> anything.

[1:05:18] » They don't know. Max

[1:05:22] » because they they from a ground point they do not feel that the underlying um

[1:05:29] issue [clears throat] is that they do not have to go through the land

[1:05:32] development process. So they do not want to go through that expense and that cost

[1:05:38] and all of that if they don't have to. So they cannot have they do not they

[1:05:45] have not had [gasps] I'm sorry. I'm sorry I'm getting a

[1:05:51] little bit um vocal. They do not feel that they have had a

[1:05:57] venue to speak with counsel or with whomever in the burrow to actually

[1:06:06] understand and have a voice.

[1:06:11] They have asked to speak to council. They have not had that opportunity.

[1:06:17] They want to understand and they told me Kristen if you come back to me and say

[1:06:26] this is it you're done they will respect me if that's the answer but I don't

[1:06:32] think that's the right answer. I think we need to find a way to make this

[1:06:37] happen for Franklin Park.

[1:06:45] » Well, uh, I'd say first and foremost, yes, we have given them audiences. I

[1:06:52] mean, I came out, drove out here. We're not getting reimbured. They don't have

[1:06:56] an application. Uh, at the meeting in miday, we had some takeaways. We don't

[1:07:02] get information back with respect to that. Overall, the issue is this was a

[1:07:09] subdevelopment.

[1:07:19] » I don't know if that's a good omen or bad,

[1:07:21] » but the

[1:07:25] issue though was a subdivision.

[1:07:29] We don't have original land developments that would have set forth traffic

[1:07:36] circulation and everything else with yes they're doing a change of use. Yes,

[1:07:42] they've gotten a use variance, but because they're changing the use,

[1:07:46] they've got playground equipment all through the back. They got a swimming

[1:07:50] pool. They have a parking lot that is not designed for an eating place. And my

[1:07:57] biggest concern and I told them this that is health, safety, welfare. You are

[1:08:01] going to be a community feature like they want to be that they want people

[1:08:06] you know in the neighborhood not to have to drive there and they don't care about

[1:08:08] the parking or otherwise but to walk over there and there is no pedestrian

[1:08:14] connection and no sidewalks and anything else and you've got a jumble of a

[1:08:20] parking lot right now that somebody's going to get. So that's at least my view

[1:08:26] of why we do land development, you know, at all, public health, safety, welfare.

[1:08:32] » And I disagree. I mean, when young roll was there, oh my gosh, there was how

[1:08:37] many parents with cars and little kids? >> Yes. But how many people were walking?

[1:08:41] » This is going to be people going in for a coffee.

[1:08:44] » Well, so different. >> In fact, when you

[1:08:47] » safer, we keep hearing they haven't applied for anything. It's true. They

[1:08:51] haven't applied for a land development. Although in one of the emails they did

[1:08:54] say that they did, but then they weren't sure of the cost. They're not convinced

[1:08:58] about it. >> Oh, yeah. They they returned away at the

[1:09:00] front desk because the front desk didn't know how

[1:09:04] much to charge them. >> No, they weren't.

[1:09:07] » That wasn't the impression I got from the email. I got the impression that

[1:09:10] they were going to get either him or somebody else is going to get back to

[1:09:13] the boss, but the application was actually taped. That's

[1:09:15] » Yeah. Well, I have a letter to that was written months ago that specifically

[1:09:20] tells the feast. >> Okay. Well, the crux of the issue is

[1:09:25] they according to the ordinances that they're looking at don't believe that

[1:09:29] development this is development under our ordinances.

[1:09:33] » They they hire legal team to prove that and we have yet to receive anything from

[1:09:37] that legal team to say on the ones. >> Okay. But what do we do have things from

[1:09:42] them in terms of plans? I don't know if we have an actual application

[1:09:44] [clears throat] that may be accurate,

[1:09:47] » but we do have plans from them. a Google map screenshot with parking lines

[1:09:54] plastered onto it by an engineer did not give us any information we need to do an

[1:09:59] actual review like we would normally do. >> Okay. Maybe I just want to ask the

[1:10:04] documents and artifacts they sent how are they engineering that provide

[1:10:09] documentation to >> they're not they're not engineer

[1:10:15] drawings they're survey drawings they're just best

[1:10:17] » but they're stamped >> best guesses no they're not

[1:10:21] » the plans I saw were some >> what they gave us

[1:10:26] » if they were if they were of the same >> that's why everything goes through the

[1:10:28] burrow so that we have it they're going through council members and shown you

[1:10:32] guys different information than us. How can we do our

[1:10:35] » then emails I think that Chris is referring to at least Tim was copied on.

[1:10:39] But hold on, we're getting into the weeds here. So again, their argument is

[1:10:44] this is not development. The burough's argument is that it is

[1:10:49] development, but because there never was a land

[1:10:54] development plan filed. But months ago when they were asking for all this

[1:10:59] stuff, that was not the argument from the bureau. The argument was, well, you

[1:11:03] have to do this and that and this and whatever is.

[1:11:06] » And this afternoon it was a different argument, but and maybe they never did

[1:11:09] those things. But maybe let's look at what exactly is it that is required

[1:11:17] and kind of move forward that way because I don't I think at least maybe

[1:11:22] council and maybe them and maybe you all have a

[1:11:26] different understanding of what actually is required. I'm not sure anyone

[1:11:30] actually knows. I mean, >> let me say this just before anybody

[1:11:35] understands before when this was just an idea in their heads, they came in and

[1:11:39] talked to me at least two times before they went to the zone, right? And I

[1:11:44] spent a lot of time with them explaining from A to Z what they're what they're up

[1:11:49] against. Um, land development. I told them about sidewalks. I told them about

[1:11:53] parking. I told them about >> storm water. I told them about

[1:11:58] landscaping and and they were very receptive to that. I also told them

[1:12:02] about building code issues and they understood that they didn't know which

[1:12:05] way to go. They had that and I I advised them that they probably have two

[1:12:10] directions to go and they can either go to council and ask them to change the

[1:12:14] ordinance for them. So they could do that use there or they could make an

[1:12:17] application for a zoning variance for use variance. They did try to go to

[1:12:22] council. Um they did ask for for allowance to go in there, change of of

[1:12:29] use, whatever zoning change there, it went to planning commission. The

[1:12:33] planning commission came back and it that fell flat flat in its face. So,

[1:12:37] they made the application to the zoning hearing board. The zoning hearing board

[1:12:41] heard their concerns. They heard the concerns of the public um initially. Um

[1:12:47] they they heard my discussion reiterating the fact that they will have

[1:12:52] to go through a land development process. There will be storm water that

[1:12:56] they'll have to address. There will be parking that they have to address. There

[1:12:59] will be sidewalks they'll have to address. There have to be building codes

[1:13:03] they have to address. >> This is none of this none of this is a

[1:13:07] surprise for them. >> And and it's not writing.

[1:13:13] » Are you in the transcript that say >> it's in a transcript

[1:13:17] » but not in the documents they were given. Well, it doesn't need

[1:13:21] » there's no documents that they were given for use in the final order from

[1:13:25] the >> they could have specified much more but

[1:13:28] you don't need to those conditions that you do are usually things that are not

[1:13:34] in the ordinance just like we talked about with the conditional use. We have

[1:13:37] a list of requirements there. But if the specifics of a use variance,

[1:13:43] conventional variance or conditional use require additional condition, that's

[1:13:47] when we added in and >> it should have been in writing,

[1:13:52] » not a trans. >> Okay. So this is where we are now to

[1:13:56] learn but what are we actually acquiring?

[1:14:01] You know, because we did a phased approach of strengthening it. So there's

[1:14:05] some things some things here on the sidewalks right

[1:14:09] and there's going through the process requested modifications of which council

[1:14:15] based on the wants of the community >> made those decisions but that was post

[1:14:19] application post process >> yeah that's the issue we can't get past

[1:14:24] square one and I I mean regardless of what happened out there and some of the

[1:14:29] vitriol that's there want to see this thing developed we had our fights with

[1:14:34] Young World that was fine. We were able to address some issues there. It was

[1:14:38] always a problem. We always had issues with how many kids they had there. This

[1:14:43] would be a community asset, but that doesn't give you the right to just sort

[1:14:50] of, you know, not apply for anything or just go in and do whatever you want

[1:14:55] because it's good for the community in the short term. Uh, and I think

[1:15:02] » you tried to lay it out. Well, they come and talk. They put the banners up, not

[1:15:07] citing them for the banners. Uh, we had the meeting. We told them what our

[1:15:11] expectations were talked to them. And I think part of the problem is they, as

[1:15:16] they've said before, they're not exactly sure what they're going to do. And their

[1:15:20] parking count is driven by the number of seats. So, how many seats are they

[1:15:24] » The parking count has changed. >> How so?

[1:15:28] » Because when I was at the meeting with you,

[1:15:30] » Yes. >> here. Um it went from two to one to four

[1:15:34] to one >> because we pointed out to them there are

[1:15:37] two provisions in the >> no problem with with parking

[1:15:42] » pointed out to them. Yes. And we told them you get the least restrictive one

[1:15:46] and they asked again recently and we repeated that it's in the parking table

[1:15:52] as opposed to in the conditional use requirements for an eating applied but

[1:15:58] they don't know how many seats they want to have. and what is their trade going

[1:16:02] to be at least in terms of those discussions we've had and

[1:16:07] » so

[1:16:12] they don't know what to provide because my understanding is that as soon as they

[1:16:19] spend all the money and do this land development plan and submit everything

[1:16:25] that is going against their argument that they don't need to do that in the

[1:16:29] first place. So they don't want to have to go through that cost because they

[1:16:34] don't believe that they have to do that in the first place.

[1:16:36] » So I just want to ask like in the emails is like just do some search was the

[1:16:42] application fee looks like $980 plus that correct

[1:16:47] » something like that. >> Okay. So that is the land development

[1:16:51] fee rate the application. like the total the total the output

[1:16:58] what's that look like is that >> that is just for us that they will have

[1:17:03] to pay an engineer to design and do >> what it is more so than a Google

[1:17:09] » so when you do something like this you're going to need three different

[1:17:11] professions you're going to need an architect because they have to they have

[1:17:14] to design changes for interior the structure they need a a civil engineer

[1:17:21] to design the site an important with our ordinance and they need a surveyor to

[1:17:26] show boundaries and the setbacks property.

[1:17:31] I'm not sure what type of engineer that they had. I don't believe he was a civil

[1:17:35] engineer. Pretty darn sure he wasn't surveyor and

[1:17:38] he wasn't an architect. The information that we had was just blown up pictures

[1:17:43] with overlays and the information surveys I have pre previous

[1:17:51] don't match where he's showing property. So

[1:17:55] » that's I just want to ask so those are three artifacts that the bureau requires

[1:18:00] » that that's three things that you need when you went to

[1:18:03] » if you're doing land development but that is the core question.

[1:18:06] » Okay. So I just just sticking to this. So the architectural broads are like the

[1:18:11] exterior, right? >> Okay.

[1:18:13] » So similar to what Franklin >> because we saw seating

[1:18:18] » well they're going to need an architect to design

[1:18:22] » that's when they're going and even though they have existing parking

[1:18:27] that parking is not going to be adequate for accessibility. accessibility is

[1:18:32] going to take flat portion of the lot repaved, rebraided to make it accessible

[1:18:40] to build an entaring lot into there. So, you know, and and the parking that they

[1:18:46] showed was was stacked. It was in the right of ways. Not all of it, but but a

[1:18:52] significant amount of. And um I don't I don't believe they have they're actually

[1:18:58] showing the pictures when I matched it up to the actual survey that I have. So

[1:19:02] there's a lot of questions about >> So those are three documents that they

[1:19:07] need. >> Yeah. And and there's there's definitely

[1:19:10] issues they have council >> and I know that coffee shops and

[1:19:16] renewable natural gas plants are two different things. But, you know, in my

[1:19:19] day job, you know, these people that are looking for loans to build these kind of

[1:19:23] plants and look to have them insured, they don't have, you know, those kind

[1:19:28] of, for lack of better term, basics. They're not going to get that insurance

[1:19:32] and they're not going to get that low here.

[1:19:36] And our our planning commission has made it very clear. They want sidewalks. They

[1:19:39] want for sidewalks. We did their comprehensive plan. That was

[1:19:42] connectivity was one of one of our main priorities even with Franklin in where

[1:19:47] they don't have sidewalks either side reinforce sidewalks

[1:19:51] without going to the the permanent processes.

[1:19:54] » So connect me and the sidewalk from my house to the people at the corner with

[1:19:59] trees >> but you're not redeveloping

[1:20:01] » and we could if we wanted to assess a footront basis but the council's done.

[1:20:08] Okay. >> So the development would require

[1:20:12] If let's say we're going through the development process, it would require

[1:20:15] sidewalks at the minimum and probably more sidewalks.

[1:20:18] » They can request modifications just like anybody else, but they still have to

[1:20:21] plan sidewalks, storm water, landscaping.

[1:20:27] » I mean, I'm talking exterior. I know you still need architectural drawings and

[1:20:31] stuff. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're going to

[1:20:34] have to follow you and say and and if they don't

[1:20:38] have I mean, if council wants to say ignore the ordinance to these guys, I'm

[1:20:42] fine with that. I don't live here, so you know, whatever. That's fine. But

[1:20:47] there's going to be zoning issues that >> I don't have to do that.

[1:20:52] » We should do that or change the ordinances. We can change

[1:20:57] the ordinances. Don't require these things for land buildings. But again,

[1:21:01] you can't be selective and and that's that's I think the issue, one of the

[1:21:07] issues here and and the other thing is this this is that none of this is any

[1:21:13] surprise and it shouldn't be. >> I think it's fair to say this is we're

[1:21:17] being selective. I think this is a very unique property and unique situation and

[1:21:22] perhaps I I know you and I read the transcript of the zoning hearing board

[1:21:26] hearing. I know you settle these things to them that might not have they might

[1:21:30] might not have realized the scope of that. That's not your issue. That's

[1:21:33] their issue. Uh but I think we need to look at how does

[1:21:39] this move forward one way or the other. Whether it moves forward with their

[1:21:42] project, whether we do something else like Kristen said this or maybe you said

[1:21:46] this, this property has been vacant for a while now. It's an eyes sore and the

[1:21:50] community wants something there. So what do we do on our part to move forward?

[1:21:57] » Regardless, there's a variance for that property that runs with the land. So

[1:22:00] even if they don't develop it and they sell it, there will still have the

[1:22:04] capacity of a non through the eery or non drive-thru eery to go in there. It's

[1:22:09] just how fast that process takes. Um but we, you know, they've been told

[1:22:14] by the department head, this is the process they need to go to. They've been

[1:22:18] told by myself, which is your your administrator, it's the process they

[1:22:21] need to go to. told by our lawyers the process that we need to go through and

[1:22:25] so now they're going to the the last council

[1:22:29] uh and so um >> I actually started with counsel but I

[1:22:33] realiz >> but we've gone through all the steps

[1:22:35] this is you know >> I think their frustration and not to

[1:22:39] speak put words in their mouth but I think

[1:22:42] their frustration is and you've seen some of these emails they're pointing to

[1:22:46] several ordinances that they argue show that it is not development And I think

[1:22:52] the issue that that it that we don't have a site development plan didn't come

[1:22:56] up until later. And so again, as I understand it, their

[1:23:02] frustration is that they felt like they kept being told this was development,

[1:23:07] but they weren't able, no one was able to nail down why. And then all of a

[1:23:10] sudden, we're like, "Oh, wait. It's because we don't actually have land

[1:23:14] development for this. It's not because all these other reasons that we were

[1:23:16] arguing before." And I think that is a big part of their frustration, which I

[1:23:20] completely understand, but again, the issue comes down to what are we getting?

[1:23:26] » Well, the other thing too is if they don't feel that they have to comply with

[1:23:30] with zoning requirements, there's an appeal process.

[1:23:33] » I don't think again they don't feel they have to comply. I think they disagree

[1:23:38] that that is what applies to them. And whether that is them, that's an appeal

[1:23:41] process. >> Right. I agree. But what I'm saying is I

[1:23:44] don't think they're saying they don't have to comply. I think they're saying

[1:23:49] that something else applies to >> and that land devel I mean I'll take

[1:23:52] ownership. I mean, I did not get involved in this until their first

[1:23:55] attorney reached out, right, April or something. And that's when I started

[1:23:59] pulling together and going through saying, "Well, okay, where's the land

[1:24:02] development that they got originally?" Oh, it never had one. So, that's I was,

[1:24:06] "Well, here's the provision that says, you know, any land development, whatever

[1:24:11] one I own otherwise, that's on me coming late to discussion and sitting down."

[1:24:18] Yeah. In the process of their Yeah, I

[1:24:23] » in the main discussion we had talked about uh you know parking was a concern

[1:24:28] right where >> yeah we we had hop that you know the

[1:24:32] right of entrance and exits were approved by pendot that the a survey was

[1:24:37] done with where the ultimate setbacks are so that we know parking's out of the

[1:24:40] rightways like those details that we need in order to move forward. So there

[1:24:46] I'm trying to think like the Timson appeal process everything else we're at

[1:24:50] such a fundamental you know basis of how do you even proceed or not proceed or

[1:24:56] otherwise it's all these other modifications waiverss adjustments come

[1:25:02] with a an application they say we don't do it and MPC does

[1:25:08] have a mediation process uh there in in it you know so that's one consideration.

[1:25:16] Nobody has used it in years. They'd have to dust it off. I don't even know. I've

[1:25:20] never been through one. Um, but it does set forth a process mostly for zoning,

[1:25:26] but I think there's cross references to uh subdivision and land development. So

[1:25:32] barring like litigation where there's a declaratory judgment action filed others

[1:25:38] there be some split costs you can have a mediator

[1:25:43] essentially review certain issues. This might be one of those types of a neutral

[1:25:52] paid by both sides and deal with whatever they say in terms of

[1:25:58] like I said is not often used. It's there might have a per vision of it in

[1:26:03] our zoning ordinance but um that's one thing to perhaps consider rings more

[1:26:08] expense. They want to do anything that's less expensive than an actual full-blown

[1:26:13] um plan development plan survey and everything else.

[1:26:18] » I just common sense.

[1:26:23] » So they're going to do a survey, >> right?

[1:26:25] » You said they were in May. We never received that.

[1:26:28] » So let's pretend they're going to do that right now.

[1:26:30] » Okay. >> That's a farmland development process

[1:26:32] setting. Great. >> I understand that's part of it.

[1:26:37] » And so that's That's already checked. The other item, the other two items like

[1:26:42] architectural drawing, would they need that anyways?

[1:26:46] » The architectural drawings they'll need for their for their building permit.

[1:26:53] » And aren't the engineering drawings? Are they a part of anything other?

[1:27:01] » That's where all the design is going to come from. That's for all their

[1:27:04] specified landscaping their details to their sidewalk there.

[1:27:10] » If they did not do that, that would not be they would not be doing that, right?

[1:27:14] Correct. >> Okay.

[1:27:16] » But I'm pretty sure >> So they're still going to have to

[1:27:20] » they're going to do that stuff, right? >> Whether they want to go through the

[1:27:24] formal process or not, they're going to generate the fun.

[1:27:28] » They are. Okay.

[1:27:31] Uh yeah. As far as parking goes, I mean like I said

[1:27:35] that session was like

[1:27:40] issued there. Um

[1:27:45] yeah, so they all stuff with the application and ask for like these 10

[1:27:48] wers

[1:27:53] in writing have a basis. >> Okay.

[1:27:57] » But they can't meet parking standards. They can apply for

[1:28:00] » they can apply for a reason. >> Okay.

[1:28:03] » I think we I feel like we had worked through the parking.

[1:28:06] » Yeah. >> And I don't remember when at this point

[1:28:09] there's been a lot of conversations about this, but I feel like they

[1:28:13] submitted their parking plan >> was a stamped engineer draw.

[1:28:17] » Correct. But at that point, I think someone reviewed it and the last comment

[1:28:21] was, "We just need this on a survey to show us that these are in the proper

[1:28:26] locations." And we I realize we never got that. Um and once we get that, maybe

[1:28:32] we'll see. >> Our last meeting she said to Anela

[1:28:36] thinks that their lawyer said they were going to supply us, right?

[1:28:40] » Uh to prove that what they want to do could work, right? We've never received

[1:28:44] anything since. >> Yeah, I remember Max sending an email

[1:28:47] following up saying these are the open items still.

[1:28:51] » Um >> and I don't know that we've

[1:28:53] » Well, we did. I mean, yes, we got a copy of the consent order that we entered in

[1:28:58] the enforcement action over the the playground.

[1:29:04] That was essentially a land development approval, council approve, wasn't that

[1:29:11] just listed again pendant information. Was there a land developer they found in

[1:29:17] their title search? Um, >> survey

[1:29:20] » and survey. you know sort of issue. Uh and yes in the last you know couple days

[1:29:25] they just asked again about provisions why there two or which one applies the

[1:29:31] same answer we did one space for every four of seats plus

[1:29:39] for one each peak employee shift. So that's the thing that how do

[1:29:46] you figure that out when you don't know how many seats you're going to have, how

[1:29:49] many employees you're going to have. It's sort of a

[1:29:52] » well then we specify 18 seats >> 18 seats

[1:29:55] » um at at one point.

[1:30:00] So uh problem is that there was almost half parking spaces either in the

[1:30:07] right away or weren't parked on in position where they met our

[1:30:14] ordinances as far as location.

[1:30:22] So yeah, I'm just curious and uh because we asked them to do and a few things and

[1:30:27] uh they probably uh they either you know didn't do it or

[1:30:32] because of some other reasons and they choose like not to do it is it's because

[1:30:37] that is very expensive to complete those things.

[1:30:42] » Well, I I mean we don't we don't set the prices for somebody else to do the

[1:30:45] engineering. So I mean that's that's something that they have to do. you

[1:30:49] know, our fees our fees are um

[1:30:54] about $7,500 bucks. I I don't remember exactly what the number was, but we have

[1:31:00] um application fee of $900. And then we have an escro fee for um reviews to

[1:31:07] happen um from our solicitor from our engineer and anyone solicitor who we

[1:31:13] draw off of for um review and preparation of agreements and things

[1:31:19] like that. But that also has to be kept up. And on a lot of cases, if you don't

[1:31:25] have a good engineer, your expenses, and we're going to ask you another word of

[1:31:29] stops because that whittleles away quickly. You know, it it's not it's not

[1:31:34] cheap for our engineer to spend hours, you know, reviewing it or our solicitor

[1:31:40] to spend hours preparing, you know, whatever he needs to do um for the true

[1:31:45] process. So a lot of times we do have to go back to the till and say you know we

[1:31:50] need more money here. >> So this is just cost on the borrow but

[1:31:55] they need to have >> they need to pay us they need to pay

[1:31:57] their professionals. >> They also need to pay like a architect

[1:32:00] or like an engineer or >> Yeah. So they'll pay them and then

[1:32:03] that's on that's before they can even obtain a building permit and start work.

[1:32:14] health department

[1:32:20] cost. >> So it'll be six figures to do all that.

[1:32:24] » Sure. And but you know this was going to be a very big business for and if if

[1:32:30] they're selling good coffee, good food, it's going to be very busy then. Um you

[1:32:35] know honestly if they if they decide

[1:32:40] as they stated that what happened. They're going to walk away from this.

[1:32:43] They're going to sell it without somebody.

[1:32:53] » Okay. Anything else to add? Does this seem like you have anything else?

[1:32:59] » I don't think so. I mean, if we're going to meet with them, I guess let's just a

[1:33:02] clear understanding. So they have sent submitted documents

[1:33:08] over I mean probably a year ago now that included parking which that was later

[1:33:14] but what would what did they originally submit? Do you remember what was what

[1:33:19] would you have? They have submitted four.

[1:33:21] » But they hard to remember. >> They submitted things and then they

[1:33:24] submitted more things with some some changes.

[1:33:28] » Were those >> it was almost like they only

[1:33:31] » No, there was no there were there was no the application isn't complete.

[1:33:36] So >> is not complete unless they're flooded.

[1:33:40] But >> the size of the of the drawings and

[1:33:42] everything um the type of drawings information on the drawings is not was

[1:33:47] not what they needed. I mean honestly if they they would have paid their fees

[1:33:51] they would have got probably 75 comments from me and the engineer

[1:33:57] because there was just they weren't they weren't your typical engineer drawings

[1:34:01] for site plans >> before

[1:34:04] » what they said they turned in was their development site development plan before

[1:34:08] that the documents that they submitted what were they submitting for

[1:34:13] they applying for something or >> well they they were trying to show us

[1:34:16] how the site was going to Was that required?

[1:34:21] Assuming that under their assumption they were

[1:34:25] not going through the development process. I guess my

[1:34:27] » they were trying to show us how how how it's going to work without going through

[1:34:30] the development process, but that's that's not the thing.

[1:34:39] » So there's just these free floating documents that they were submitting to

[1:34:43] the burrow without any kind of outside of any formal process.

[1:34:51] » They're really formal trying to disturb the process.

[1:34:56] » Well, I don't think that's fair to say. Again, their understanding based on the

[1:35:00] ordinances that they quoted and sent uh at the time their argument was, you

[1:35:06] know, this not land development because in addition to an existing

[1:35:10] non-residential structure that totals less than 10% of the total gross area

[1:35:14] floor area, the existing non-residential structure on the site is not land

[1:35:18] development. So, I think that's what they were going with or at least looking

[1:35:22] to not go through the land development process. So, I'm just wondering what

[1:35:25] again I'm getting this isn't really central to the issue, but I don't

[1:35:29] understand why they were submitting things if they were outside of any kind

[1:35:34] of process.

[1:35:39] » Yeah. I mean, I think it's somewhat typical, Tim, just in terms of

[1:35:43] you talking to any types of developers or anybody coming in that just wants to

[1:35:48] do a residential, you know, addition. They might have draft plans and might

[1:35:52] show you here's a concept that I'm working with. We have a pre-application

[1:35:56] process. Somebody can go without applying, go to the planning commission,

[1:36:00] get comments beforehand. So that's what at least when

[1:36:04] understood it was sort of that back and forth of or get you comfortable that

[1:36:08] this is not a develop. >> Yeah.

[1:36:16] So I I mean I you know they're trying to gauge what they're

[1:36:22] interested in what what are they going to be up against what what they have to

[1:36:26] do with >> fine with what they heard at the zone

[1:36:29] hearing board and original discussions and maybe thought was a little less

[1:36:34] formal. It was okay it's my drawing that I'm standing there as an application

[1:36:39] process >> and I what I don't understand is what

[1:36:41] they're hanging their head on saying that they they don't have to go through.

[1:36:46] I mean, who's advising? >> Well, I can't answer that. I can just

[1:36:50] read the email that they sent and highlighted parts of the ordinance.

[1:36:53] » What I saw from there, the the commercial attorney

[1:36:58] beforehand, you know, I think it was some, you know,

[1:37:01] comment letters from the engineer they had sort of at the time of just pulling

[1:37:05] parts from the web page or definition of development and just saying that this

[1:37:10] this doesn't meet it. not making that other

[1:37:14] I'll say leap but other idea that there was never a land development for this

[1:37:19] unique property say that been daycare 1980

[1:37:25] » so if there had been a land development site or plan for this site

[1:37:31] » before which I don't understand how we never did but that's a separate issue

[1:37:36] » um if there had been one or if we found one would they need to

[1:37:41] I think we would look at it to see was it was it there in terms of the parking

[1:37:46] or or otherwise then you might be the overall layout or

[1:37:52] others. But the complicating feature I think is going to be the the changes to

[1:37:57] particularly building codes since then and how you do accessibility in terms of

[1:38:02] parking. I don't know if they would have had

[1:38:06] cap parking in a 1970s plan development. Well, plus plus there was no there was

[1:38:12] no continued non-conformable because because the the building

[1:38:20] also addition to the

[1:38:23] » I don't talk about the storm water. because it wasn't storm water. It wasn't

[1:38:28] an issue. >> They were unable to prove that they

[1:38:32] could do the pardoning >> before he before they got their own.

[1:38:37] » Yeah. >> There was no

[1:38:39] do I really have to pay this?

[1:38:46] » But you you mentioned some level of like phasing. Is that an idea? say like until

[1:38:53] they open as like a popup temporary use for a little bit and then

[1:38:58] » um >> they they they have short-term vision

[1:39:02] and long-term vision depending on how things go. um you know um short term

[1:39:09] they want to just sell coffee and some sandwiches and um in the future there's

[1:39:15] upstairs where there's a large office and then also some other rooms that they

[1:39:23] thought you know in the future maybe we can like have like rent it out or or

[1:39:30] maybe not rent it out but just like space for businesses you you

[1:39:35] an extra room, >> an extra room for, you know, my

[1:39:38] husband's meet with a client um over coffee and a sandwich and have like a

[1:39:42] designated room that people could reserve. Um, but for now they just want

[1:39:48] to open up to have coffee counter and a deli counter

[1:39:55] with some tables and then whatever brings the future to

[1:40:01] expand and whatever they may need to do in future to expand.

[1:40:07] » Well, the concern is what happens if they fail. You just have to get through

[1:40:10] the whole process without doing anything.

[1:40:15] What do you mean? like like if they want to do like a small scale open

[1:40:20] don't have to do the full development because test run that test run fails

[1:40:24] then the building never got better business failed and it never went

[1:40:28] through processes >> right I'm failing to see the

[1:40:33] » I jumped in so I'm going to do the same thing so I'm not

[1:40:37] » Yeah

[1:40:44] » business owners might but Yeah. Municipalities. Yeah.

[1:40:47] » Yeah. Well, I don't think we need to walk through hypotheticals, but um it's

[1:40:53] an important sub. >> Yeah.

[1:40:56] » Um >> so yeah, didn't want to keep it this

[1:41:00] long for a non topic thing, but um I want to make sure we discuss this. So

[1:41:07] sounds like we're going to meet with them actually. Um you know, some ideas.

[1:41:12] » Yeah. Uh in my mind it sounds like basic application would be the handful of

[1:41:18] things that you are looking at as a two obligation.

[1:41:32] » We need to know what they need relief from.

[1:41:34] » Yeah. Yeah. >> Because we don't have enough good

[1:41:36] information to make those turn >> with standard. Yeah. with standard

[1:41:39] office with the Franklin, they submitted everything without modifications. We

[1:41:43] told them what modifications would be beneficial to them

[1:41:46] » and would be that they needed they adjusted their site.

[1:41:51] » It's not like we're not trying to help the program. Can't help you if you

[1:41:53] don't. >> We told them what modifications would be

[1:41:56] helpful for them. >> Yeah, we told them what modifications

[1:41:58] they need. They wanted to release >> what they were doing

[1:42:02] » because they were obligated to do a lot of stuff. They and they changed the site

[1:42:06] the site considerably um and eliminated things and readjusted things, parking,

[1:42:14] exterior improvements, things of that. >> So, can we come up with a kind of like

[1:42:21] detailed list of things? >> Yes. Once we know what they're

[1:42:25] proposing, but I can't tell you what you can or can't do unless I know what

[1:42:30] you're going to do and I can't design for it. It's not mine.

[1:42:33] » No, I don't think you're saying what would it require like

[1:42:37] » uh yeah something like that and just uh as what we have discussed for example

[1:42:41] and we and we need some information from architecture for like inner like design

[1:42:48] or something and also engineer for the you know popping out or something like

[1:42:53] water and some other things and we just at least you know at this moment I think

[1:42:59] that the owners will probably minim want to know

[1:43:04] uh ext you know and they really want to know like what exactly stuff that they

[1:43:10] need to work on uh I think that they I don't understand their frustration and

[1:43:15] with the whole process because they are not expert in this kind of field even

[1:43:20] probably they have I'm not saying that [clears throat] I'm trying to kind of

[1:43:24] like say there something maybe they have a bad or something like not like you

[1:43:28] guys you know so Right. [laughter] So, and what I'm saying that they just like

[1:43:34] we know that they are trying to set up and the coffee shop and the Danish shop

[1:43:38] or something and come down. So what exactly and the stuff that and they need

[1:43:43] to prepare and and what will be the kind of like process a little bit detail and

[1:43:50] uh we don't need to negatively and if we can somehow like wave something and

[1:43:56] that's and I think that and the council is open to that and for example I

[1:44:02] postpose some fee and if uh uh if it's kind of too much we can

[1:44:07] you know lower that fee or something like that and we can talk about this

[1:44:12] content but at least know we need to give them something like you know they

[1:44:18] they know that what they need to do next because right now I'm not so sure and

[1:44:24] what's going on with that they uh communication I think that they and

[1:44:28] sometimes uh I feel like they communication and

[1:44:33] kind of like got lost uh and uh I I'm I'm not so sure what is happening Well,

[1:44:39] I everything that they gave me, I responded to the issues that I saw so in

[1:44:44] writing. So, uh they do have that information.

[1:44:48] » Some the lawyers up communication with the lawyer is not misp.

[1:44:53] » Oh, okay. Yeah. The lawyers may be sometimes they know. Um so you know that

[1:44:59] the the information that we have um we have from past owners of the property

[1:45:06] isn't in in concert with what they're providing either. So setbacks and

[1:45:11] property lines and like that just different. Um, and you know, they do

[1:45:17] they do fix some of the things that we call out, but other things are still the

[1:45:22] same way and fix would be more expense. Um, and

[1:45:29] so I I think that some of those items because the expense would be more to

[1:45:34] address them are just more. Um, and again, you know, I mean, my

[1:45:41] interpretation of the code says they have to do these things. His

[1:45:45] interpretation of the code says the same thing that I've been over countless

[1:45:49] times. The solicitor's um interpretation of the code, same thing. So, you know, I

[1:45:55] mean, they whoever's advising them isn't giving them any meat to do it. But

[1:46:01] additionally, you know, if we feel that this is too extensive for them, then

[1:46:06] maybe we need to deal with a change in ordinance.

[1:46:10] And when you're talking about fees, I mean, I guess we have a fee schedule. A

[1:46:14] developer does pay an escrow. It gets drawn against. Nothing says the bureau

[1:46:18] needs to draw against the escrow. It's council's will. That's not going to

[1:46:24] make Zach happy, not going to make, you know, reach happy, but

[1:46:28] » we would be paying through the process so that they're paying rent

[1:46:32] » at least for the reimburseable portion, you know.

[1:46:36] » Yeah. These fees cover our cost,

[1:46:40] » you know, otherwise otherwise the >> they don't want it.

[1:46:45] » Otherwise, the residents are paying the costs.

[1:46:47] » Yeah. Yeah. These these are passives typically not property on this,

[1:46:52] » right? They're covering them. >> Yeah. I mean just because next time when

[1:46:55] you guys meet and the owners and and you may need to have some

[1:47:01] information, you know, and not like a talking, you know, and we can have

[1:47:06] something like ethnicity, you know, in writing and or something like little bit

[1:47:11] like information and ethnicity, you know, because I'm I'm not the expert in

[1:47:15] this field. But right now I can understand that at least there are three

[1:47:19] things that you know you have to ask like you know expert to prepare like

[1:47:26] architect or engineer or survey or something like that is

[1:47:31] something like and they we need to work on so and give them like a kind of like

[1:47:39] some thumbs up that they need to if they decide okay to be honest if they decide

[1:47:44] oh yeah we're not going to do anything. So that means this mean nothing that the

[1:47:49] world can do. or not just one of can we since sounds like we're meeting to

[1:47:55] actually we have it sounds like three services

[1:48:03] what you need to get the information we need to

[1:48:08] » okay I don't I mean I can't speak to our spirit discussion there but I don't

[1:48:19] discuss Everything's

[1:48:22] in the subdivision land and subdivision ordinance lays out.

[1:48:28] » All right, I'll write something. Yeah,

[1:48:33] » because I think that and sometimes you know and we have ordinance but sometimes

[1:48:39] there are a lot of ordinance and with that a lot of information you know and

[1:48:45] sometimes people get confused especially if they are not you know expert so what

[1:48:54] we can do is just probably right now some something like really important you

[1:49:00] know and for them to move on if if like those are kind of things that is very

[1:49:06] less but if they decide yeah we're not going to do that so that means and you

[1:49:11] know there's really nothing we can do you know you know I mean just but if you

[1:49:15] go very detail like for example and you have to uh design the parking lot and

[1:49:20] just like whether you have and 18 and the parking spot or like 16 and that's

[1:49:26] that's really some sometimes you know it's a I know but And uh to be honest,

[1:49:31] you know, when I look at this one, if I'm an owner, I get tired of looking

[1:49:37] at this things. And so, uh it's just so many things and the people kind of like,

[1:49:44] you know, they're like ah don't want to do that. So, that's why I I mentioned

[1:49:48] that we give them some information. for example, just that I like what is ide

[1:49:53] like like three things like and we just discuss a lot and uh to see what the

[1:49:59] owners you know would like to do at least know and if they if they say like

[1:50:05] okay we're not going to do that we don't want to do at all and so that means

[1:50:12] technically we're done with this and they

[1:50:15] » you're asking them to do land development is that what you're saying

[1:50:17] » yeah yeah yeah something the interview are the third things.

[1:50:23] » Yeah. >> You'll be to do

[1:50:25] » you're saying the things that land development would require. uh yeah at

[1:50:28] least you know something like you know so something like that and just we have

[1:50:33] discussed and just mentioned because that's okay and I think that the main

[1:50:39] one of the main and the reason is the cost because nobody want to spend like

[1:50:45] six figure number of the uh money on something you know and but if

[1:50:53] if it's necessary and you know that every business can come with a risk

[1:50:57] So whether they know they would like to take it or not and that's a good thing

[1:51:04] because I still believe that they the costly is the main reason because so

[1:51:09] that's why they talk about the large company and they can spend like like

[1:51:16] 2020 or $500,000 on something they big company you know doesn't care but for

[1:51:24] you know small business owner I know they care about the cost and whether

[1:51:30] they would like to spend that amount of money on this kind of thing that

[1:51:35] problem.

[1:51:38] » Yeah, that's a >> I think you so do that.

[1:51:44] You want me to write the bolts by what you ask

[1:51:49] some guidance on like hey survey architecture plans like standardized

[1:51:53] like what are the expectations right

[1:51:58] » I mean that's what that's what we've been doing I've been responding in

[1:52:03] quoting from chapter verse my responses >> okay is there is there an application on

[1:52:07] evidence >> yes online the application

[1:52:13] email that you do want to ask a general question. If

[1:52:17] Starbucks are coming to you that thing would be discussion

[1:52:24] » I wouldn't like Starbucks that's that's if they were the buyers of that property

[1:52:30] of other variance wouldn't we be discussing

[1:52:34] discussing this?

[1:52:38] » No, I don't think so. Yeah.

[1:52:42] Just curious because I mean I see this as a community benefit which is why I'm

[1:52:46] discussing it >> but also these I think those two things

[1:52:50] are definitely not apple to apples. These are community members who live in

[1:52:54] Frankard and so I I sort of see it both ways. When they're coming to council

[1:52:59] asking for help would I entertain that from a large corporation? No. But the

[1:53:06] flip side of that is they are residents and we all represent them. And so this

[1:53:11] process has been frustrating to them. Um and so

[1:53:17] do we want to try to help where we can? Yes.

[1:53:19] » Okay. And we are trying to address

[1:53:30] » what happens when as your communities grow and your bigger uh and your

[1:53:34] regulations to enforce the the large companies kind of grow how we have done

[1:53:38] here, right? Uh the the private businesses, the small business centers

[1:53:42] don't own their buildings anymore. The developer builds the plaza and then the

[1:53:47] small businesses rent from them, right? So, we're kind of at that plateau where

[1:53:52] our code requires a high standard. Uh, and so sometimes it's not feasible for

[1:53:57] small business owners. Um, but there's properties still be developed. Those

[1:54:01] small businesses still have opportunities. It's just not the

[1:54:03] property owners. See this is

[1:54:11] » you're saying and again I don't know if this is central to the issue but you're

[1:54:14] saying a big corporation could come buy that and small local businesses right

[1:54:18] there that have their >> you still have you know a small non-pop

[1:54:23] business uh just in a different fashion uh and we still enforce our normal

[1:54:28] ordinances as we >> I can't imagine that's what most striker

[1:54:32] park residents would for whether we can control capitalism, how it happens, you

[1:54:37] know, >> and then that's where this board has the

[1:54:39] the option to change your codes >> to guide the community how you want it.

[1:54:46] » But based on what we have now, there's three professionals said this is what we

[1:54:50] believe is correct. >> And I agree and I your point of view, I

[1:54:54] think their frustration lies and that answer was different before the

[1:54:58] attorneys got involved. No, no. Yeah. >> Insult to you, Max. Um, and now the

[1:55:05] answer is something different. And so they they feel like the goalpost keeps

[1:55:09] moving. And I understand that frustration. And I think now at least we

[1:55:13] can communicate clearly to them to say these are the goalposts. This is maybe

[1:55:19] ways we're willing to work with you, but we still need to like we did with the

[1:55:22] Franklin in the goal is compliance one way or the other.

[1:55:28] So >> all right. Very good. [laughter]

[1:55:43] » Anything else?

[1:55:48] » Um, that's everything I have on my list.

[1:55:54] » Okay. All right. So, uh, thank you so much. Thank you. Sorry. Um,

[1:56:00] take a session. session.

Borough of Franklin Park Work Session September 2 2026

Agenda

Transcript