[6:59] The Stark Preservation Commission meeting, thank you for joining, our meeting is being held the

[7:05] teams and in person in the council chambers conference room. It is September 2, at 6 o'clock PM and I

[7:16] call this meeting to order. During the meeting, when I call for public comment, if you are attending

[7:22] In person, please raise your hand.

[7:25] If you are attending via computer, device, or phone, please use the raise.

[7:30] This lower-hand feature to let me know you wish to be recognized. I'll call on people in the meeting room first and then our virtual attendees.

[7:39] For virtual attendees, our meeting host will allow you to talk and then you'll need to unmute your mic.

[7:47] If you are participating by computer, I'll call your name, the name you have entered when you joined the meeting. If you are participating by phone, I'll call on you by reading the last two digits of your phone number.

[8:00] If you have joined us on the phone today, you can raise and lower your hand by pressing star 5 and mute.

[8:10] I think that's supposed to say you can raise and lower your hand by pressing star 5 and mute and unmute by using star 6.

[8:17] We'll start the meeting with a roll called to take attendance in a establish a quorum.

[8:27] Here.

[8:28] Hello, sir.

[8:30] Hello, sir.

[8:30] Here.

[8:32] Adler.

[8:36] Campbell.

[8:38] Here.

[8:39] Eater.

[8:41] Here.

[8:42] Sobler.

[8:43] Here.

[8:45] Struggle.

[8:48] Absent.

[8:48] We have a quorum.

[8:52] Fantastic.

[8:53] Thank you.

[8:55] All right.

[8:55] The next order of business is meeting minutes from our August 5th, 2026 meeting.

[9:04] Because everyone had a chance to review the meeting minutes.

[9:07] I'll make a motion.

[9:11] That was right.

[9:12] So.

[9:15] I'll make a motion to approve the meeting.

[9:17] Minutes is written.

[9:23] Second, the motion.

[9:29] Okay.

[9:31] The motion passes.

[9:32] Meeting minutes are approved.

[9:34] Right.

[9:35] The next sort of agenda.

[9:36] The next agenda item is public comment on items not on the agenda.

[9:41] Is there anyone present who has items for public comment that are not on the agenda?

[9:47] All

[9:53] right, seeing none in the room, I will join online real quick and see if there's anyone there.

[10:13] It's not allowing me to join now.

[10:15] I don't know if staff can tell me if anyone online.

[10:19] I don't see any online.

[10:24] All right,

[10:27] moving on.

[10:30] Item number five, new business.

[10:32] Do we have any agenda items for new business?

[10:38] Not appear to be the case.

[10:41] All right, moving on.

[10:43] Old business.

[10:44] The only agenda item I have listed for old business

[10:47] is the ELTS Master Planning Update

[10:49] and a presentation by MMW Architects.

[10:54] If you'd like to approach the podium,

[10:56] I will turn your microphone on.

[10:58] Please state your name and spell it slowly for the record.

[11:01] Thank you.

[11:03] My name is Susette Jensen, S-U-Z, E-T-T-E, J-E-N-S-E-N.

[11:18] Madam Chair and members of the Board of the Historic Preservation Commission.

[11:22] My name is Susette Jensen.

[11:24] I'm a member of the Benevolent and Protective Order of the Elx Helgate Lodge, number 383.

[11:32] This evening members of our lodge,

[11:34] and MMW Architectural firm and Western Interstate Construction are in attendance to provide information and answer questions as to the building construction and remodel we wish to pursue.

[11:47] In 1911, the firm of Lincoln Hare of Great Falls, Montana was hired by the members of the Helgate Elx Lodge to design the iconic building, neoclassical building located at 120 North Petty Street.

[12:02] John Gustaflink and Charles Sidney here were well-known for designing large public and quasi-public

[12:09] buildings throughout the state, including the wings of the Montana State House. At that time

[12:15] they were perhaps the most prominent architects in the state of Montana. They also designed the

[12:21] Board-style Masonic Lodge that is located between 120 and 136 East Broadway. We brought with us

[12:29] The night architectural drawings and floor plans along with the pictures of the exterior

[12:33] of the current building and the original building as designed in 1911.

[12:39] The Helgate Elx Lodge was once the centerpiece of social activity in downtown Masula.

[12:46] The first floor of the 1911 building was initially used as a showroom for the mercantile's

[12:51] farm implement division.

[12:54] Current Elx members are keenly aware that we need a more updated and attractive space to socialize and conduct our meetings.

[13:02] Restoring the exterior and interior of our building is critical if we're to retain or to attract retail and our other community uses to provide income for our organization.

[13:14] We believe our restored Helgate Elf's lodge will add to the vitality and vibrance of historic downtown

[13:23] Mazula.

[13:25] As we continue to pursue our dream to restore our historic building, we know your approval

[13:31] is necessary.

[13:32] We are here tonight to answer your questions and explore what additional information you

[13:38] need to allow our project to move forward.

[13:41] Thank you.

[13:44] Dave Elmore is here, and he has some additional history about the ox, if you'd like to hear him.

[13:51] Sure.

[13:51] You can provide some of that.

[13:55] Thank you.

[13:57] Thank you.

[13:57] I'm Dave Elmore, Secretary of the Museuel Hellgate Oxlodge.

[14:01] My name is Dave E. E. E. L. M. O. R. E.

[14:06] I just did some bullet points of the history of the building and the lodge itself.

[14:11] In July 3rd of 1897, the Elf's received a Grand Lodge dispensation to hold meetings, which were held at Eddie Block Hall, or Knights of Pithias Hall, which later referred to as Elk Hall.

[14:25] The Grand Lodge Charterers dated May 12, 1898, and it was signed in Room 4 of the Florence Hotel.

[14:33] The first exalted ruler or president of the OX was John Martin Keith, the ninth mayor of

[14:40] Missouri. On March 22, 1902, 96 applicants were initiated bringing the large membership

[14:48] to 300. June 14, 1904, a committee was appointed to secure a location for the OX Hall.

[14:57] July 12, 1904, 20 new members were

[15:00] Administrative initiative, among them, Frank L. Warden. August 9, 1904, the building committee reported

[15:07] that Mrs. Edward L. Bonner, except for her an offer of $5,000 to purchase the two lots on patty street

[15:14] between front and main. At that same meeting, Frank H. Woodey, William L. Murphy and Fred Z. Stoddard,

[15:23] were appointed to take necessary steps to incorporate the lodge.

[15:28] On March 27, 1906, Secretary James A. Walsh reported 329 members and $594.47 in cash.

[15:39] Your architectural firm Lincoln here was hired to design the building, which looked like this

[15:43] in the 1930s, that collage over there.

[15:50] Lincoln Air did many buildings on Montana, this is that said, including the state prison cell block number one.

[16:01] The architectural drawings we have are dated July 3rd, 1910, and this is the original concept painting.

[16:10] The lies sold bonds raised capital and borrowed money to foot the $50,000 construction bill.

[16:16] And it was dedicated in January 1st, 1912.

[16:21] The major remodel was completed in 1949.

[16:25] The building had 30 small apartments with common bathrooms, a spa, basketball court, shooting

[16:30] range, four lane bowling alley, two bars, a stage, dance floor, commercial kitchen,

[16:36] lobby, and a 2600 square foot lodge hall.

[16:42] That's what we are dreaming is to get it back to this.

[16:46] Can you go back to the list of everything that was in the building?

[16:51] There was in the building?

[16:52] Yes.

[16:54] We had 30 small apartments.

[16:57] They had common bathrooms.

[16:59] A spa in the basement, steam room, so on.

[17:04] Basketball court, a shooting range,

[17:08] a four-lane bowling alley,

[17:11] two bars, a stage in dance floor,

[17:16] commercial kitchen, the lobby of the building, and our large mini-room, which was 2600 square feet.

[17:34] My name is Jacob Wright, JACOB, WRIG-HT, with MMW Architects.

[17:39] I'm going to staff you have a copy of the plans you can pull up from us in over.

[17:43] The plans that were sent over to

[17:47] you.

[17:48] The reference point.

[17:54] Okay. Sorry about that. So did you guys on when we sent over the text? Do you guys have a chance to read the two primary bullet points that we wanted to discuss with you guys today?

[18:05] No, I was not sent any additional information and kind of what we see here.

[18:13] So if you have something, you can summarize.

[18:16] Okay.

[18:17] Yeah, we'll keep it simple.

[18:27] Sorry, I've received an email with plans attached to it and the two bullet points that Elx would like to bring up for discussion in regards to tonight's presentation.

[18:40] Is that come from Elias?

[18:44] Is there any way you can send it to city staff so that they can get it up on the TV?

[18:49] We were all CC don't that look like?

[18:54] Okay, but I can't project it, so that would be the kicker.

[19:01] Cassie is also raising her hand online?

[19:04] Oh, maybe Cassie can share that'd be fantastic.

[19:07] Yeah, hi, Cassie prepared a planning manager, Elias is out, so I'm covering for them.

[19:12] I do not have the plans or that email, but if someone can afford it to me, I can provide my email and then share.

[19:28] So I'm like, okay, plan,

[19:32] what's the best email to forward it to you?

[19:36] Yeah, that's going to be a trip forward.

[19:38] TRI, P-A-R-D-C.

[19:43] C-I-D-M-Z-L-A.M-T-D-I-U-S.

[19:48] Very long emails.

[19:58] That's T-R-I-P-A-R-D-C.

[20:02] Yeah, we're about the end of that.

[20:14] Believe it should be forwarded to you.

[20:16] So it may take a second.

[20:19] I will share it once I get it.

[20:33] I can kind of just start rolling a little bit without the plans being up.

[20:37] I think the primary and there's obviously this is what the Alex wanting to do is

[20:43] it's going to be an of multi your multi stage remodel both into your next year.

[20:48] Well, primarily into your, but we were starting why we're here today is we're starting to run

[20:52] in some areas where it was going to start touching the exteriors. We want to have a conversation with you

[20:55] guys to see what latitude they have and the work that they're going to do. And the primary

[21:00] The first question that we've kind of talked about over the last couple of years is the project has started to get some traction

[21:07] is that granted the 1950s read model is now deemed historic and that's what the registry lists it but also being at the registry

[21:15] lists the 50s read models being an insensitive which at least from this side of the table we all agree with that the 50s being an insensitive treatment.

[21:23] The goal of the off-slog is to return that to the 11th to the historic 1911.

[21:28] So we have two historic precedents and is, is that, I guess, tenimal to the commission to

[21:36] restore to the 1911.

[21:38] And I guess that's the first point of discussion.

[21:40] We were just kind of wanting to hear you guys as input on.

[21:46] All right.

[21:46] So did you note that the National Register nomination indicates that the 1950s era

[21:54] renovations are historic. Yes, yeah, it is historic, yeah. Okay.

[22:12] Did the information come up?

[22:14] Do you send to a study include the National Instrumentation?

[22:20] No.

[22:33] I'm going to make a suggestion that some things get sent to us afterwards if that's okay.

[22:40] Yeah, especially the nomination that way you don't have to go get it right now.

[22:45] Yeah, I would recommend all the materials like the nomination and those sorts of things be sent to us.

[22:52] I think I'm going to note that I'm not entirely sure what our jurisdiction is over a project like this.

[23:07] I'm curious about that.

[23:12] So that would be a question that I would query Cassie.

[23:15] Hopefully she has received the email, I don't know.

[23:20] I did, I can share my screen, and then they can kind of direct me to which slide, hopefully in between I can research your questions.

[23:30] Okay, so while we kind of move through that, we'll Cassie starting to pull it up.

[23:36] My recommendations are going to be that Jacob, if you could proceed as like an information only, so like you're just telling us what's going on with the project, what you're hoping to do.

[23:45] And, you know, then we can kind of get a better understanding of like what we can offer, you know, whether it's suggestions or recommendations of those sorts of things or if we just, you know, or advisory.

[24:00] So, that's.

[24:01] No, that's exactly what we see.

[24:03] We weren't planning to really get any specifics out of today.

[24:07] We just were assuming this was just step one and getting that advice on how you, like again, you guys have jurisdiction or not.

[24:14] I mean, I think we've had some conversations internally,

[24:17] and I'm obviously with Jackson,

[24:18] formerly being on the board,

[24:19] he kind of gave us a little bit of his thoughts on it,

[24:22] but I think we were just kind of wanting to kind of,

[24:24] again, there's two questions as one is,

[24:27] do you guys have the jurisdiction,

[24:29] and primarily what we're talking about as the first floor,

[24:31] because largely in the 50s remodel,

[24:34] it really didn't touch level two and three,

[24:36] is primarily that historic first floor facade.

[24:39] And fundamentally, the goal for the OXLodge

[24:40] is to just return to the original,

[24:42] Partly to create that vibrance and to get more glazing, to get more light in, to get more transparency.

[24:49] But also recognizing that they need to do it in a whole hearted approach and not just a partial approach to that if we went down that road.

[24:56] And so that's where we just weren't sure exactly given that they're both historic dates.

[25:03] Who it is, whether it's you guys or somebody else that would have that authority to say what we can and can do.

[25:09] Yeah, so I'm not entirely sure. I do know because it's on the national register. You're going to have to coordinate with states or preservation office.

[25:18] Okay. So that's going to be something you'll want to follow up on.

[25:22] But in the interim, if you don't mind just kind of saying, okay, this was a, you know, like the images were on the screen.

[25:30] To say, okay, this was the original, this was 1950s. This is what we're proposing to do and just kind of walk us through the prepared material.

[25:38] like, you know, we're brand new to the project because we're brand new to the project.

[25:43] For sure. Thank you. So, as you can see on the 1950s, it's really that lower band on the

[25:49] level one where they've, it doesn't exist. Well, I guess basically a lot of intel. So on the,

[25:57] let's see, that'd be the front pretty street facade. The glazing on that facade is actually a

[26:01] lot of glass block, rather than just any type of transmoord transparent glazing with visibility,

[26:07] and then as you move along the patty street facade, it also has largely kind of rather than

[26:15] being a ribbon window removed to be in punched openings, so there's a lot less glass presented

[26:20] in the 50s than what the original project was. And then also right now underneath the

[26:26] onion, that's the primary entrance, so there's really only one entryway within the auks

[26:30] lodge. Without getting into a lot of the detail, some of the complications are that between

[26:36] the original and the 50s, they relocated all the vertical circulation in the project.

[26:41] And that's really what's created some of the crux of the problem.

[26:45] Is that that vertical circulation made a lot more sense, what was originally installed, and

[26:49] the new circulation one is not code compliant, and there's other issues that we're trying

[26:54] to go through to rectify that, but also it is right in the middle of that main for which

[26:59] they want to return to tenant space and to have at least will tenant space.

[27:03] So that's part of this whole dialogue.

[27:05] I was trying to open that floor up,

[27:07] create more visibility, create more tenant opportunities,

[27:09] and create that retail presence

[27:11] that the original project had.

[27:13] Whereas when the 50s, the off-slage and my understanding

[27:16] and David speaks this more became much more insular.

[27:19] And so that's where they wanted to create

[27:21] a lot more privacy and secrecy.

[27:23] And they're trying to kind of go back

[27:25] to the original that opened that up to the public.

[27:28] One of the primary problems with this,

[27:30] obviously with the 50s facade,

[27:32] is the original entryway that was the vertical circulation, was located on the north-west corner

[27:39] of that. So just past that white truck, that's where it was, and they infill that original

[27:44] entryway. So there's some challenges with redoing this to the original. It's basically taking

[27:51] those two the saws and kind of fully opening them back up. And primarily what we've been one

[27:57] we've been running into is that the that red reddish box is they relocated the elevator in

[28:04] socket. It's partly obstructing some of the lit windows on level two and three, but it's also

[28:11] obstructing an old alcove on level one. So if we flip to the next slide,

[28:20] so that set red box is the

[28:22] elevator location overlayed on the original project. And as you can see on that one, just to the

[28:27] north of that, there's an alcobe, very similar to butterfly urge or hide and soul, where

[28:33] you kind of have that little recess space. And there's one, one again, just to the north

[28:38] of that red box, there's one a little bit further south, you can see on the patty street facade

[28:44] and there's also one on the front street, which is labeled Main Street, looks like. So anyways,

[28:51] those, there's the three alcoves, and then all the busyness to the very top of the page on that

[28:56] up or left corner, that was the original elevator and stair core that circulated at all levels.

[29:02] So as we're looking at, unfortunately, the way they located the elevator during the 50s,

[29:08] it really just kind of obstructed the ability to repurpose the facade. And that's kind of

[29:14] why I guess was a second bullet within our question mark was one if there's latitude within the state

[29:20] and whatever jurisdiction you guys have to restore this and we also have very accurate records of the original drawings.

[29:30] We've got a lot of photography of the original drawings and a lot of detail.

[29:33] So I think there's a lot of potential to be able to go down that road and be able to restore that to the original facade.

[29:39] And then it becomes a timing issue of obviously there's all there's projects

[29:44] or constrained by money and time and be able to have the resources to do both at once.

[29:49] I mean, the ideal thing would be obviously if vertical circulation and the

[29:54] facade could be restored at the same time, but we're just not sure if budget allows for that.

[29:58] And the sequencing and we're not sure.

[30:00] Here at this point, which one would have come first, and is there a stopgap procedure in a way that

[30:06] if what to say the facade went first, that it would allow us to essentially,

[30:15] like, obviously

[30:15] we'd be able to create that alcove at that interim step, but then be able to create it at

[30:20] another step or phase in the project. Or there's a potential that the facade could go first, the

[30:25] to serve vertical circulation in a second at which point the facade wouldn't be impacted

[30:30] and those original outcomes would be able to be re-installed as it originally done.

[30:36] I don't know.

[30:36] Is this, as you guys have a question, Paul, let's take a look at the question.

[30:41] Thank you.

[30:42] That was a lot of information.

[30:43] You just went through and very helpful.

[30:46] I did find the National Register nomination and it is listed under criteria A and C, A being

[30:55] association with events and CE being designing construction. It's also notes that the period

[31:02] of significance is 1911 to 1940. So, in terms of the National Register listing, a National

[31:11] Register nomination that's available today, that's the building is a period of significance

[31:18] It does not include the 1950s edition.

[31:22] So with that, I would think that you could revert back to the 1940s, you could return

[31:28] to building completely to the 1940s version.

[31:33] If you can pull up the slides again,

[31:39] when was the nomination?

[31:40] Yes, very, very important.

[31:43] And the one I want to, that one right there, and can you zoom into that lower left corner

[31:47] of that?

[31:50] Yeah, thank you.

[31:52] Great.

[31:52] And Steve, what did you say?

[31:55] Yeah, one was the nomination written that you're referring to.

[31:58] I don't know. I closed that.

[32:00] Okay.

[32:01] Yeah, look like nice June 1990.

[32:03] It's like, it's pretty short.

[32:06] There may be a revision.

[32:09] There could have been.

[32:11] I suspect there isn't, but there may have been.

[32:15] Also, before we continue, what did you say,

[32:17] criterion A was the significance, did you?

[32:20] Uh, a association with events.

[32:22] Which events?

[32:23] Yes.

[32:25] Okay.

[32:27] So, everything you just mentioned, the entry ways and whatnot, I think you could probably

[32:33] work through that, even in the location of the elevator in terms of the blast or front,

[32:37] seems like there's means to, you know, to work around that, you know, figure out something

[32:45] Now, that left this entry, that's on the screen right now,

[32:50] seems like the biggest challenge.

[32:51] Challenging.

[32:53] 100%.

[32:53] Yeah.

[32:54] I mean, if because that, and I don't remember what it was on the plan,

[32:59] but that entry is such a celebratory character

[33:04] of finding feature that when you consider that the return

[33:12] or reconstruction almost is what you'd be doing, of that it, I would think that that element

[33:20] that's on the screen would be primary to really kind of achieving the essence of restoration.

[33:30] Agreed.

[33:35] So I'm just looking for a little bit of clarity on a few things. When you talked about the change

[33:39] of circulation. It was unclear to me and based on what Paul saying, did they change where

[33:46] the entry happened? Because these are the original drawings? Yeah, what you had there.

[33:54] The primary entrance to the entrance. Yeah, so they underneath the

[33:59] kind of the main or the new morning. The new morning, the main thing you have right now, that's

[34:03] that's centered there. And what Paul was referring to, it was the primary entrance originally.

[34:10] There was no door at the location of the current agency.

[34:16] You can really see it here.

[34:17] I think that those alcoves you mentioned were probably pretty prominent.

[34:26] Yeah, but the record can't, so that's the issue.

[34:30] There you go.

[34:30] We'll do that.

[34:32] So that entryway, yes, that's going to be the biggest challenge to reconstruct that accurately.

[34:38] This is the current entrance location and there is no entrance there.

[34:42] And so they basically what they had as they had three, I guess, merchant entrances, two along the

[34:49] patty and one along the front, and it's basically the fact that this one is partially

[34:54] obstructed by the elevator. And it's not much, it's darn close, but also, and if you just look at it,

[35:02] the even vertical circulation flow, the 19 to 11 architects, they're doing, and I'm going to hold

[35:07] my comments on the 1950s architects.

[35:09] That it just, the circulation flowed a lot better

[35:12] and even if you start even upgrading

[35:13] to modern code compliance, it's vertical stacked.

[35:16] Whereas the 50s remodel, the circulation started

[35:19] off setting, didn't create vertical sap shafts.

[35:22] There's a lot of thought, and I know you guys

[35:25] are super concerned about the interior.

[35:27] But in order for all those things to happen,

[35:29] they're almost too full that we're both the facade

[35:32] and the circulation are kind of married

[35:34] the hip based on what happens in the 50s. But I mean there's definitely a strong alignment there

[35:40] and that's kind of what we're, I mean I guess I'm just speaking out loud is to whether or not

[35:45] which is hypothetically say that the circulation went second in the facade went first is

[35:53] if like I mean I think the ultimate of the alcohol is to return it to this but if they're able to

[35:58] basically just create this facade restore this entry way and then momentarily not do this

[36:05] Alcove until the elevator got moved at a later phase,

[36:09] basically it was contingent on that later phase

[36:11] than re-adress in this, but it could be the reverse,

[36:14] which then at that point makes it simple,

[36:16] because if the facade will go first,

[36:18] or the elevator goes first, then we could get the elevator

[36:21] relocated in the facade, so then easy to address,

[36:25] minus the beautiful challenge in the corner.

[36:29] So is that kind of make sense?

[36:30] It's just kind of this little, the little sliver that it intersects

[36:33] that I'll cove and I'm just from your guys' perspective and guidance is that when you're trying

[36:39] to restore that to the original, it's this alcove, and obviously we don't want to put it in

[36:45] a location that isn't obvious and apparent as like within the cemetery, the building and

[36:49] that's kind of what's so strong about this, is the cemetery of this facade, minus this

[36:55] order of primary answer element.

[37:01] Thank you.

[37:02] That's very helpful.

[37:03] A couple of questions.

[37:05] Just for information.

[37:09] What I heard, and I don't know who said it, but I'm curious if you can clarify a bit more

[37:17] that the intent is to create retail space and return that ground level floor to

[37:26] on level of retail, like initially you're saying...

[37:30] That it was the mercantile's farm implement display, like did they sell items from there? And is that the intent to return to that kind of retail component within the building?

[37:44] Not a specific retail component, but yes, the mercantile leased the main floor for many years. They had the replments in there. They probably had other stuff in there too, but they leased that whole floor for a long time.

[37:58] And is that something you'd be looking to do again?

[38:02] On it to be leastable space, yes.

[38:04] Okay.

[38:04] Whatever somebody wants to put there.

[38:06] But essentially ten it.

[38:08] A ten it yes.

[38:09] And retail.

[38:10] Retail.

[38:13] Yeah, restaurant bar, retail is what, yeah.

[38:19] After that, talking with David,

[38:21] I'll screw up that.

[38:22] The challenge is that he had his friend at least this space.

[38:24] period is the lack of daylight and views coming out of that space and primarily it's being

[38:30] obstructed again by the glass block and the infill walls but also it's this there's the kind

[38:36] of primary staircase that you can't see this behind the existing recurrent entryway is

[38:41] really obstructing the flow, it's obstructing the daylight and views and so it just makes

[38:45] it hard for them to find a tentative tentative and it's a twofold benefit to do the

[38:51] frustration, just to bring it back to the original community, but then also it makes a lot more

[38:55] attractive to take into account these things.

[39:01] Does anyone in the commission have the comment through in a couple of cents worth?

[39:06] I was kind of taking a philosophical look at it and kind of willing to buy into the fact

[39:11] that it was a kerchimol remodel rate.

[39:15] Kerchimol was the architect.

[39:17] Yeah, that that has in the meantime become historic because the nomination was written 30 years

[39:22] go. It's not official, but ideally, it's associated with curriculum, it could be considered

[39:31] historical and important in Missouri. But I think philosophically, you always have the right

[39:37] or the ability to go back to an older and original restoration. And the only thing I'd

[39:45] say, and I don't think I need to say this, because you guys seem really glued in. Only if

[39:51] an actual restoration not just kind of like while it's a modern interpretation of what was

[39:55] there if it's a credible restoration and you know, doesn't demand perfection but it's

[40:02] that a history of the trunist to it to call it a restoration. So I think even if you consider

[40:09] that curriculum renovation history you have the option to go back to the original.

[40:14] Okay, great.

[40:16] And then that's even I think you kind of,

[40:18] that was a crux of our kind of,

[40:20] I guess, quantity and what if you guys

[40:22] this guy and this was whether the Kirk and Mo

[40:24] was now going to be considered historic

[40:26] and what and kind of how that fell.

[40:28] But if it sounds like there's a lot of

[40:31] to go back to the original.

[40:32] And yes, to do restoration and not in modern interpretation.

[40:37] My opinion and advice though,

[40:39] it's not necessarily depending on what the jurisdiction says.

[40:44] That's, but take it as a vice right now.

[40:48] Yeah.

[40:48] Appreciate it.

[40:49] Yeah.

[40:50] I would agree with that.

[40:51] And that's kind of where I was leaning, when I had my,

[40:53] I mean, my comments that the idea is that regardless of

[40:57] Kirkomo or not, it's not his best example of work,

[41:02] that to really represent his architecture and his contribution

[41:06] to Missouri.

[41:07] There are better examples.

[41:09] So to think that this is a Lincoln hair building,

[41:12] that you know one of two in the city that are pretty prominent and I would think that the

[41:21] period of significance just by the nature of the National Register written in 1990 without any changes

[41:28] and it's notes that it's like an air. So again this isn't a opinion okay.

[41:40] The way the majority of folks interact with this building is going to be at the pedestrian level, right?

[41:48] And so how you treat that level of the building is going to be really important to whether you're seen as a restoration or just new windows, right?

[42:02] So I think really looking at that detailing and it's kind of an equivalent in this image

[42:09] in my opinion.

[42:10] Like we don't really know what that material is, below the glass.

[42:13] We don't necessarily know how all those details happened in the photography you see in

[42:18] awning and, you know, a little bit more detail in the photographs rather than the rendering.

[42:25] And so really taking a careful eye to how it was historically experienced, right?

[42:33] Like, how would you walk along it?

[42:35] What was done to protect it at grade?

[42:37] How did they deal with snow?

[42:39] Like, all those sorts of natural things we look at is architects.

[42:43] But to say, returning it to an era that has is very the glass, the store front, the openings,

[42:53] the patterning is all very sympathetic or matching of what was originally there is going to help

[43:01] you justify returning to that 1911 and essentially the destruction of that 1950s era renovation.

[43:13] Yeah, no point while taking the actual corner at the patty front facade is this is an accurate.

[43:20] It's the early artist representation, right?

[43:23] And the drawings show that slightly differently, and the natural built photography shows that

[43:27] you can slightly different from that.

[43:29] So it's trying to, like, to your point, go back to the original, almost the photography's the most

[43:32] accurate, but to get those clues into where the final result was of that period.

[43:40] And you said you had a lot of good documentation.

[43:43] So I assume you have a lot more than just what we see here a lot more.

[43:46] lot more to go on. So, oh awesome. Alright. Yeah. I just had a general question and I don't

[43:55] know the extent of work or survey that you've done on this yet but Paul did bring up that

[44:01] primary entry point. It looks like it has left an architectural scar on the current building where

[44:09] that facade was. Was that, do you know was that removed or was it partially encased? Do you know

[44:16] with anything remains of that. I believe it's removed space. I mean, there's not the depths to have it in case from what I could see.

[44:25] So, I mean, we haven't done any selective demo, demolition to know, but I would assume it's been removed.

[44:29] Okay. Thank you.

[44:30] Thank you.

[44:31] Thank you.

[44:33] Yeah.

[44:43] I do know if the walk in front of that, the Elf's Lodge, you can see the very corner where the architectural scar would be.

[44:50] And so I was just curious that they extend if you knew.

[44:55] I don't know for sure, but I believe it was removed and

[44:57] infilled with obviously the mismatched blockings.

[45:00] Thank

[45:02] you. Thank you. Do you think you would have the opportunity to update the National Register

[45:09] nomination once you're done? You said you had a lot of the history,

[45:20] because I mean, you've

[45:21] already brought up that the nomination is not correct and does lack stuff. So I'd really like to

[45:27] see more of that history represented if you could please.

[45:32] You can always update an nomination.

[45:36] Is there, I mean, yes, any negative stuff dating the nomination and once it was restored?

[45:44] What was that again?

[45:46] Was it as there any like consequences to doing that?

[45:49] Oh, no.

[45:50] I wouldn't think so.

[45:50] Oh, no.

[45:51] It's a positive thing.

[45:52] Yeah, I'd think it's.

[46:01] I'm going to check in with Cassie unless the commission has additional comments.

[46:06] And see if she has had the chance to just kind of review.

[46:12] you. Yeah, what our role is at this juncture. Yeah, your question was more or less what the

[46:21] commission's authority is, right? Well, preservation permits. Yes, so we always welcome

[46:27] information. So thank you for ringing information. We love to listen and hear what's going

[46:32] on in the community. But as far as our role in the process and what next steps might be for

[46:38] commission just curious you've had a chance to poke into that. Yeah the commission's role is

[46:47] advisory so really my understanding is what you've been doing is giving comments on the project

[46:54] opinions feedback and I believe the history preservation officer will review this video and also take

[47:02] to account with their decision on any future permits.

[47:11] Thank you for looking into that.

[47:13] It's much appreciated.

[47:16] You know, just a couple more comments.

[47:19] And you more than likely know this,

[47:21] but when you see properties that have,

[47:25] and particularly here,

[47:27] where there's so much street facing glass,

[47:29] that the type of glass that you use is so important,

[47:34] particularly given so many modern glasses have reflective films in them, which then

[47:42] totally distracts from the historical character. I can imagine that you know

[47:47] given the storefront and the implement that we're being sold, that that really

[47:50] was a true playglass, clear playglass window,

[47:56] which is great, you know, from an

[47:58] architectural standpoint and a pedestrian standpoint, maybe not so great

[48:02] from a heating and cooling standpoint inside the building.

[48:05] So that I don't know exactly, I'm not saying that there's

[48:11] a, I have an answer.

[48:12] But it is something that is something to be aware of, I guess.

[48:16] Just that idea, it's like, there's

[48:21] a great idea to restore

[48:23] and return.

[48:26] And there was probably a reason why the Elx wanted,

[48:30] in addition to the price he has she mentioned,

[48:33] but that idea that, hey,

[48:34] this is a huge windows or an energy suck and you know the heat and cold air that we get

[48:41] off of them is not very energy efficient. Yeah for sure I think that there's going to be

[48:48] a lot of research that goes into that and I would hope that with while we're trying to represent

[48:54] all of the the patterning around the window but the actual the glazing unit that with a new modern

[49:01] high-performance glazing as there's a way to achieve some of those balances to where you

[49:06] provide the transparency referring to, but also offset or mitigate some of the, I guess,

[49:12] just the heat low, especially on that western facade. But to try to balance it, but yet kind

[49:17] of honor both sides of the equation. The image in the center, right above the word temple,

[49:25] from this distance, it looks like it's an earning, but I don't think that is, that's just the,

[49:29] kind of glass, that little glass block. I believe so too. When I first saw that photo,

[49:35] I had the same kind of catch in my eyes to what others are in on and they're not,

[49:39] but I believe it's not. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yep. The purple glass. That's what I thought. Yeah.

[49:49] And was there a modification like the second floor has that balcony with the, I think it's

[49:55] So that first is surrendering. Those are two different. Like it didn't happen at

[50:00] rendering. It happened with in reality on the, yeah, okay. Thank you.

[50:07] That's another case where the artistic representation is an 100% accurate.

[50:11] Fair enough.

[50:14] Do you mind going back to the start photograph?

[50:17] I don't know if we still have Cassie.

[50:19] think.

[50:22] And I actually have to head out pretty soon. I was only able to cover until about

[50:27] 6.45, but it can share an image real quick. And then I believe our admin staff have the

[50:33] slides as well. Oh fantastic, thank you. Which image did you need to say? Yeah, that one right there.

[50:41] If you don't, this one, thank you.

[50:50] Thank you. Looking at the imagery, it's by guess, is that those windows

[50:56] are steel, but they're metal,

[51:04] very similar to what was the Missile of Merck and Teal,

[51:08] and I think that's another good precedent to look at for what Paul was saying is that

[51:14] is also been lost, but looking to replicate or provide that type of glazing the way that

[51:25] set up that type of system. This is, again, my opinion, I really would not like to see aluminum

[51:34] storefront in this location. I highly recommend steel, or metal windows, and there's plenty

[51:43] of really great metal window manufacturers that would be willing to both marry the concerns

[51:51] with energy efficiency and vandalism, with the historic framing and integration into that

[51:58] wall system.

[52:03] So similarly that prismatic glass, that purple prismatic glass, I think there's

[52:06] some really great examples in town where that's been done well on the hip strip. I think there's

[52:12] The children shop and a rug gallery there on the east side of Higgins Avenue that is a good example, so I recommend, you know, looking at those as options and

[52:31] Look forward to hearing more about this project. Oh, we've got more comments. I think we're going to say goodbye to Cassie. So thank you Cassie, but go ahead. I had a question. I don't know if it's appropriate to ask what you've talked about multi-phase and what not. What is your funding? Are you doing fundraising? Are you applying for grants? If I'm allowed to ask that, if I'm not just telling me.

[52:54] That's the other thing that Jacob's initial narrative talked about is,

[53:00] hopefully, you can help us with grants, at least locating grants.

[53:06] The Montana Historical Society, or what, they do a big grant, and we plan on,

[53:13] quite applying for that this year.

[53:16] It opens on January 1st, I believe.

[53:22] We have quite a bit of income.

[53:24] We have a ground lease with the rent, which is a 50 year

[53:27] around lease with two 10 year extensions.

[53:31] So that income is huge.

[53:32] We have 18 apartments.

[53:36] Is pretty happy to income as well.

[53:38] Then if we can return this to a retail space,

[53:42] that's even more income.

[53:43] So all this together is going to pay for all this.

[53:45] plus, do the things that we do as Alx, even on any way.

[53:52] Which we do fairly well.

[53:54] So if you go to a website, preserve Montana,

[53:59] on their website, they have a list of grants

[54:03] that are available for anybody, who's listening,

[54:10] that would be like, there are grants out there.

[54:13] And preserve Montana is really good about keeping

[54:15] kind of a running list of state and national programs that offer preservation

[54:20] or grants for bricks and mortar to take preservation projects.

[54:25] Yeah, I've looked at that side a little bit.

[54:28] They've got a great list there.

[54:30] You may have it in that we don't have or knowledge that we don't have this.

[54:35] It may be on the probably as on the list, but look at tax credits as well.

[54:41] There. Yeah, it's different for us because we're an nonprofit, but we can do a deal with our contractor

[54:49] We're he can get the task credits and we can get a little

[54:54] We know about that

[55:00] And I wanted to say thank you. This is pretty cool

[55:03] So thank you

[55:06] Yeah, and if you don't have any more questions like I mean, again, this is just kind of weird hope and it's just the meeting of

[55:12] bit one of many. And we'll be back and just keep you guys updated because I think it is going to be a

[55:16] long process. So we'll just kind of keep you posted and we appreciate you guys' comments.

[55:28] I would send it to Elias and they will get it distributed to us. So that's probably the

[55:33] route to go. Is there any more comment from the commission on this agenda item?

[55:41] Okay, I would like to thank you all for your time in one coming all the way here to taking an

[55:46] interest and being stewards of historic property in downtown

[55:51] Missoula that is our community and it's where we live and work and so

[55:55] we're very excited to see restoration efforts in downtown

[56:00] Missoula. So thank you for that and we look forward to learning more.

[56:07] Yeah. Yes. Thank you. Thank you.

[56:14] Elias is email. Can you parade by with those pictures?

[56:20] I think you can find it online because I don't have a written here. Do you have it Paul?

[56:47] I'm going to take a two minute break if Kathy you want to look at imagery. Okay, so we will look at imagery

[56:57] for a couple of minutes.

[57:02] I guess it's a recess. We'll reconvene at 6.52. Thank you.

[59:08] We are back from recess.

[59:12] Just in time for item number seven, board member comments.

[59:16] Is there any board member comment?

[59:25] No board member.

[59:26] Okay.

[59:27] Well,

[59:30] how many either?

[59:33] Uh, that moves this on to item number eight.

[59:36] Announcements news and upcoming events.

[59:39] Though I have a couple of announcements on upcoming events.

[59:43] Sunday streets is September 20th from noon to four.

[59:47] At the exact same time as stories and stones, which is on September 20th, which is a Sunday from noon to 3 p.m.

[59:55] Stories and stones is at the cemetery and Sunday streets is on Higgins Avenue. I believe they're shutting down the bridge.

[1:00:00] So both of us are fantastic ones to attend. On that note, the Montana History Conference is in Billings this year on Thursday, September 24th, to Saturday, September 26th. I encourage you all to attend. That's all I have for announcements, news and upcoming events. Does anyone have anything else they'd like to add?

[1:00:26] In

[1:00:30] October, there's going to be the North and Green Plains History Conference just for a lot of different historians.

[1:00:38] It will be in boostment this year.

[1:00:42] It's really a for a lot of like educators and a lot of like historians who really really enjoyed the history of that area.

[1:00:51] I've heard wonderful things about it, and I have no plans on going this year, but I really hope to do something.

[1:00:58] It's called the Northern Great Plains History Conference.

[1:01:03] Thank you.

[1:01:08] I do have one event that will not be until the winter, but it is in the planning process right now.

[1:01:16] So typically the Northern Rockies Heritage Center does a summer concert for their fundraiser and kind of public event.

[1:01:25] But they will not be doing that this year.

[1:01:28] They are hoping to hold a holiday T instead.

[1:01:33] More information should be coming, hopefully in the next couple of weeks about that.

[1:01:38] And there should be hopefully some advertising that will be discussed about that.

[1:01:43] But they're hoping to have a celebration of the history of the fort.

[1:01:48] And so they will hopefully be working with a team of culinary students from Zulu College to recreate historic recipes that would have been served at the Fort Christmas parties prior to 1940.

[1:02:06] So,

[1:02:09] yeah, yummy stuff.

[1:02:11] So, that's a work in progress, but I'll have more information about that coming soon,

[1:02:16] but it should be somewhat of a similar event to if you ever went to the T's at the Flynn

[1:02:25] Ranch similar, so it'll be very exciting in there.

[1:02:30] They're excited to have an updated event that can kind of go hand in hand with the lantern

[1:02:35] tours, but the fort does. It'll be the following week is when they will start their lantern tours.

[1:02:41] So to come start the holiday season, even though it just is September 2nd, will we have

[1:02:48] any more information about that soon? Thank you.

[1:02:55] Oh, and then I did also want to mention

[1:02:57] on September 16th, I believe. Yeah, that's not next Wednesday, but the Wednesday after

[1:03:06] Northern Rockies is having a talk by UM grad student, Renee Carpenter, on the BLM management of the wild prior mountain horse herds.

[1:03:19] In October, I can't remember the dates. I can get that. There will be a grad student, Carolina Hanin, who will be giving a discussion on Indigenous Banner Stone use,

[1:03:31] in the middle archaic region, or period, and then Professor Doug McDonald will be doing a book

[1:03:38] signing during the forms we will book sale. So lots of fun stuff coming up out at the fort.

[1:03:53] Thank you. At the last meeting, we talked about the idea of perhaps touring the

[1:04:01] the list of endangered properties that preserve historic

[1:04:08] masala issued in late May of 2026.

[1:04:13] And I'm curious if there's an appetite for that.

[1:04:15] Elias can look into the details to make sure it's all on the

[1:04:20] up and up from a committee's standpoint.

[1:04:23] They're not doing anything we shouldn't.

[1:04:28] And that it's totally possible for us all.

[1:04:31] So just curious if there's interest.

[1:04:34] I'm incredibly excited about that.

[1:04:38] Fantastic.

[1:04:38] All right, so that's 100% interest.

[1:04:40] We had to vote on something,

[1:04:41] then that's what we would have a unanimous vote.

[1:04:48] All right,

[1:04:51] any other comment?

[1:04:54] All right, thank you all.

[1:04:59] We shall adjourn.

[1:05:00] It is 658.

Historic Preservation Commission

Agenda

Transcript