[0:00] Thank you. I will call the Newcastle County Personnel Subcommittee meeting to order. It's 3 p.m. on January 20th.

[0:13] Present are Councilperson Smiley, Cartier, Durham, Carter, Hollands, Valerie George.

[0:21] On line I see Kinect Go and Tackett and Mr. Street's picture is there, I don't actually

[0:30] see him.

[0:31] But if anybody comes on beyond that.

[0:33] I'm here.

[0:34] Oh, thank you.

[0:35] He's here.

[0:38] Can I have approval of the minutes from the 10, 21, 25 percent?

[0:43] Official approval is posted.

[0:44] Second.

[0:45] Second.

[0:45] All in favor?

[0:46] Aye.

[0:47] Any opposed?

[0:49] So this is a dual-purpose meeting today.

[0:53] We've been going through the handbook chapters.

[0:56] We are on Chapter 7.

[0:58] Chapter 7 is a fairly long chapter,

[1:02] and I just handed out, for those of you that are here,

[1:07] a synopsis of each section of that chapter.

[1:11] Council Migliore.

[1:21] Okay, just scratch everything I just said.

[1:25] Not long.

[1:27] What could I say?

[1:28] Right.

[1:29] Okay.

[1:30] I'm going to go through it, but I'm not going to read it to you.

[1:33] I'm just going to take it off of the synopsis, and if there's any questions, Counsel to Counsel

[1:39] Migliore is here, and he will help to answer those.

[1:42] You should also have a copy of Chapter 7 with you.

[1:49] All right.

[1:49] So we will go through payout of sick leave.

[1:52] Your payout is divided into two areas.

[1:56] One is if you retire or involuntary separation.

[1:59] That would be if your council person, for our AIDS, if your council person is off,

[2:06] or I'm sorry, if the council person, if you lose the count or you retire,

[2:10] the council person comes under this upon resignation.

[2:14] I would presume that would go for all of us.

[2:17] So it goes through how they do their calculation,

[2:20] how many work days you will be paid for, and the definitions for the payout that come under this would be personal injury, illness, medical, dental, optical, quarantine, intensive care of a family member.

[2:38] And upon resignation, your paid leave days change.

[2:43] change.

[2:46] And we're going to leave FLMA to go ahead with that. Okay, so FLMA, you can be

[2:55] granted up to 12 work weeks of unpaid leave during a 12 month period. It gives you the

[3:01] number of days that if this is foreseeable that you should give notice through the clerk.

[3:09] It talks about being able to use other accrued pay leaves such as workers comp, depending on the situation,

[3:18] and that you need to provide medical documentation to the clerk.

[3:23] You may elect to continue health care during FLA, and with some exceptions, it's titled to return the same or equivalent position upon return.

[3:32] That is not guaranteed, but they will obviously try to come as close as they can to the position that you left.

[3:40] For military, for full or limited term employees, we would move over to personnel policy 3.13.

[3:52] For jury duty, it's a leave of absence with pay, and you are not required to remit jury fees.

[4:02] For bereavement, it comes in immediate family and extended family.

[4:09] So for immediate family, you would get four days of paid for the death of an immediate family member.

[4:15] And those are specified as spouse, children, siblings, parents, and in-laws.

[4:21] And for the extended family, you get one day for a family member.

[4:26] and that would be first cousin, uncle, aunt, grandparents, brother, sister-in-law, nephews

[4:30] and nieces.

[4:32] So for unpaid personal leave, those are emergencies not covered by other policies.

[4:39] It's approved through your supervisor and the clerk.

[4:43] You request it in writing if that is up to 60 days in advance, if it's something

[4:49] that you know ahead of time.

[4:52] And a reasonable effort will be to reinstate the employee to the original or comparable position.

[4:58] But reinstatement, again, is not guaranteed.

[5:02] If you need an extension, those extensions can be granted through the clerk.

[5:07] For a community service leave, an employee is entitled to 21 hours of leave each fiscal year.

[5:14] And the purpose of that is to assist nonprofit organizations.

[5:17] and the authorization is the leave must be approved in advance from the council member or the clerk.

[5:26] So a leave of absence without pay may include non-work-related disability, military leave, personal reasons,

[5:34] and it can be granted for any period of time, not exceeding one year,

[5:39] and any extension would be subject to the council.

[5:44] The request would be submitted to the supervisory council member and the clerk with dates of

[5:50] approval and ending dates for under 30 days.

[5:55] The request for over 30 days needs council approval.

[6:00] Benefit status.

[6:01] So if you're taking a leave, an unpaid leave under 30 days, all employee benefits continue

[6:07] except employee will receive sick leave credits only for the months that the employee worked

[6:13] a complete month of service.

[6:16] If it's over 30-day leave, unpaid leave in excess of 30 days, the employee would be

[6:22] placed on non-active payroll status and benefits will be affected.

[6:26] And there is a benefits section at the end, I believe, that shows what the specific

[6:36] benefits are for each one of these categories.

[6:39] So for health insurance, the benefit will terminate effective in the first day of the month following the leave.

[6:47] So if you leave on the 15th, it's effective on the first.

[6:50] But if you leave on the first, the coverage ceases immediately.

[6:56] And for re-engagement, the benefit will be picked up on the first day of the next month following the employee's return to work.

[7:03] If the employee returns on the first day of the month, the benefit will be picked up immediately.

[7:07] and for continuation options, the employee may continue coverage under the group premium

[7:13] by making arrangements to pay for this coverage through the pensions and benefits section.

[7:19] For life insurance during unpaid leave in excess of 30 days,

[7:24] the benefit terminates immediately when the unpaid leave begins

[7:28] and the benefit resumes on the day the employee returns to work.

[7:33] For adjusted pension service date in excess of 30 days, the employee will not accrue service credit for pension benefits during the period of an unpaid leave.

[7:43] Upon re-engagement, the pension service date will be adjusted to reflect the length of the leave.

[7:50] For a sick day in excess of 30 days, no accumulation during that period of unpaid leave.

[7:56] For a vacation credit, the employee will not be credited for vacation vesting purposes for months or parts thereof of unpaid leave of absence.

[8:07] Upon re-engagement, vacation credit will be adjusted to reflect the length of absence.

[8:14] The anniversary date, the date will be adjusted forward to reflect the exact number of days of the employee's absence on unpaid leave.

[8:22] performance review date. Upon return, the employee's performance review date will

[8:28] be changed to a date exactly four months prior to the new anniversary date. Any

[8:34] performance review at or near that return date will be delayed for 30 days.

[8:39] Merit increases scheduled shortly after return will be delayed until a receipt

[8:43] of satisfactory evaluation. The holiday pay, there will be no holiday pay

[8:49] while on unpaid leave. If the first day of unpaid leave follows a holiday or if the last

[8:55] day of unpaid leave precedes a holiday, pay is at the discretion of the supervisory council

[9:00] member in consultation with the clerk. Early return from unpaid leave. Request

[9:07] for early return must be made no less than three weeks prior to the revised date of

[9:12] return. Decisions will be made by the supervisory council member in consultation with the

[9:18] who may consult with the Office of Human Resources.

[9:21] The clerk advises the employee of the decision.

[9:24] Extending paid leave?

[9:26] You can extend extension for no longer than one year in total unless approved by council.

[9:32] The request must be made no less than three weeks prior to the original date scheduled to return to work.

[9:37] Submission is made to the supervisory council member and the clerk who may consult with the Office of Human Resources.

[9:44] Clerk will advise the employee whether the request has been approved and the clerk notifies HR of that extension.

[9:53] Notification to HR on employees returning to work.

[9:56] HR adjusts the anniversary date, performance review, vacation service date and pension service date.

[10:02] HR notifies employee in writing of the changes to the affected dates.

[10:06] at the time of vacation, the vacation vesting,

[10:10] the clerk in collaboration with HR

[10:12] notifies the employee of the number of days of vacation.

[10:16] If days are less than what the employee would have received,

[10:19] if not on leave.

[10:20] Responsibility of employee,

[10:23] it's the responsibility of the employee

[10:25] to notify the pension and benefits section

[10:27] to reactivate terminated benefit coverage.

[10:33] And we, let's see, leave of absence

[10:35] to participate in political campaigns 30 days or less.

[10:40] A three-month unpaid leave may be granted during election years.

[10:44] You submit a request in writing to the supervisory council member and the clerk with the dates of the absence.

[10:51] Supervisory council and clerk determine recommendation to council.

[10:55] Council approves or disapproves the request.

[10:58] The clerk notifies in writing employee of the decision via letter including leave and returning date.

[11:04] Notice of unpaid status is reported to HR.

[11:08] Leave for less than 30 days does not need to change notice form.

[11:14] For less than 30 days, all employee benefits will continue except sick leave will not accumulate

[11:19] for any months in which the employee did not work the entire month.

[11:23] The employee will not be placed on non-active payroll status.

[11:28] If it's over 30 days, it follows all of the procedures for any other leave that's over 30 days.

[11:35] And the last page, the procedure for unpaid leaves in excess of 30 days, it is all spelt out in a synopsis in the last page.

[11:46] I don't think that I need to read it all for you because basically it's just reiteration of what we went through.

[11:51] Any questions?

[12:07] So I will take questions or Mike will take questions now, but

[12:13] he will and then the presentation

[12:17] will continue following that.

[12:18] So Mr. Koneko.

[12:20] Thank you.

[12:22] Thank you, Madam Chair.

[12:23] That was a lot to get through, so I appreciate you agreeing that through us all.

[12:27] I want to ensure this is we're talking about just for county council employees, right?

[12:34] Yes.

[12:36] Okay. And then I would ask Mike, on the military leave policy,

[12:43] are we meeting the same standards that the state meets at the county level?

[12:49] I don't know the answer to that.

[12:50] I don't know the answer. Mike with the already council to council.

[12:53] I'm not certain that we align with what the state is.

[12:55] We do align with what Newcastle County is a whole under policy 3.13, but I can look into

[13:04] that though.

[13:05] Hey, I would just ask to make sure we take a look into that.

[13:08] We have lots of county employees obviously who are in the Delaware National Guard who

[13:12] are, you know, you know, so I just want to ensure that I've got some reachbacks.

[13:18] I'm still looking into this, that we're hitting the same leave policy the state

[13:22] of Delaware does for military members at this time.

[13:28] And if there's anything I can assist or help in that, please let me know.

[13:33] Thank you.

[13:33] Thank you, Mike McLeory.

[13:35] Was there a particular issue that you had in mind, or were you just thinking generally

[13:39] about this?

[13:41] It was about the time of the days that they can take a military leave.

[13:46] I know it's been extended in certain states and I want to ensure per our last conversation

[13:53] that Newcastle County employees, not just county council employees, Newcastle County

[13:58] employees have the same military leave policies that have been being extended because obviously

[14:05] as you see our Delaware National Guard and our state national guards across the country

[14:09] have been being utilized a little more and I want to ensure that we have those

[14:13] protections in place.

[14:14] That's all.

[14:15] Okay, Mike McGuire, there is a process, and I'll look into this as it pertains to the

[14:20] state.

[14:21] But there is a process for the county generally that we've adopted under Rule 3.13, and it's

[14:27] bifurcated for 10 days or less or more than 10 days.

[14:31] So I'll get a copy of that to you, and then I'll also look at what the state provides

[14:36] for.

[14:37] Right.

[14:37] And I think that we have to get a little more liberal at that.

[14:40] I think we have to provide more leave time for military members within our county government

[14:46] to be able to go on, you know, a month or longer status and still be paid by the county.

[14:52] So what we could talk about that more, but just something I want to raise.

[14:56] Okay.

[14:56] Thank you.

[14:58] Any other questions from Councilmembers?

[14:59] Mr.

[15:00] I'm just curious, do we really still need this leave of absence for participation in political

[15:06] campaigns? If somebody wants to take a leave of action for personal reasons and do that,

[15:11] it seems to be covered. I don't know, it really matters. I mean, I'm certainly not going to

[15:16] have my legislative assistant taking a leave of absence to work on a campaign or anything.

[15:24] I don't know. I mean, it's not a big deal that's left there. I'm just wondering if

[15:30] to see what needs to be in there anymore.

[15:34] Mr. Smiley, I'm just sitting over here imagining

[15:38] the legislative assistant applying for three months to work for your opponent, and then

[15:43] when they lose, coming back to work.

[15:49] Let's consider the worst case scenario here.

[15:53] Just from a perspective, looking at it from the public, this is like a carryover from

[15:59] the old patronage system. I don't know that we even need it in our code anymore.

[16:03] And correct me if I'm wrong, Mike, but if I'm going to take a leave for a campaign,

[16:08] it's going to be for somebody higher than where we are. You know, I mean, some people

[16:13] may want to go work for the president. Who knows.

[16:16] But they could do that under the personal reasons that are in the other one. I don't

[16:19] know that we need it in there. I mean, it's not the council. I just don't see

[16:23] a need for it.

[16:23] based on some of the things in the past with county officials

[16:30] outside of council.

[16:32] I think it's good to have just so to protect the employee

[16:35] if they're out there doing something

[16:37] and somebody's going to raise the issue on them.

[16:40] I just think it's a good cover for the employee.

[16:42] And they combine it onto the other days, too.

[16:47] I mean, I look at it there.

[16:50] I was a merit system employee for 30 years.

[16:52] So you could go three months three months three months. I would never ask. I think under the campaign you lose less

[17:03] And if you start going out farther than 30 days, then you fall into basically a whole different category of

[17:10] Unpaid leave. Yeah, and at that point Mike McGlory at that point you may not have your job secured

[17:16] Me put that here. It's allowed

[17:19] under the put the

[17:21] The leave for the politics you have allowed to leave for up to, I think it's 90 days, three months.

[17:26] Right, three months.

[17:32] Madam President.

[17:34] Mr. Hollins.

[17:35] I think it's necessary to have it in there because it's optional.

[17:38] And you have the Hatchack involved.

[17:40] There are people who may want to work for a political campaign outside of council,

[17:44] like a presidential campaign, as you mentioned.

[17:47] Thank you.

[17:48] And I personally believe that we need to have the division from campaign to anything else in your life that goes on.

[17:54] I think there are people out there who are going to try to blame anybody associated with

[18:02] a campaign for getting something from the government that the rest of them maybe don't.

[18:08] But I just think that we need to separate out campaign from everything else, just my

[18:15] personal opinion.

[18:19] It's okay, I just raised a question.

[18:22] Any other comments?

[18:24] Do we have any public comment?

[18:32] And seeing none, we will continue and Council to Council Migliori will take the rest of this.

[18:42] Thank you, Madam Chair.

[18:44] The balance that we saved kind of the best for last.

[18:48] It was the change that Council authorized enacted in section 7.3 on page 25.

[18:54] That's the Delaware Paid Family and Medical Leave, which is subject to state law,

[19:00] Delaware State Law, and became effective at the beginning of this month in January 1.

[19:06] And so in addition to the other benefits available under the handbook,

[19:11] employees may be entitled to leave under what's referred to as the Healthy Delaware Families Act.

[19:19] Benefits under the policy run concurrently with the family medical leave, which is the federal law, where applicable, and may also run concurrently, in other words, running at the same time with sick leave and or vacation leave consistent with applicable law.

[19:38] To be eligible for benefits under the policy, an employee must have been employed by the county for 12 months,

[19:44] have worked 1,250 hours in the 12 months, immediately preceding the first day of leave,

[19:50] and must be seeking leave for a covered purpose.

[19:54] And those covered purposes are fourfold.

[19:58] One is recovery and bonding, following the birth adoption or fostering of a child.

[20:05] Second is time off to care for a child, spouse or parent due to the serious health condition of one of them.

[20:13] Third is time off to recover from the team member's own serious health condition.

[20:18] And fourthly, the following reason is qualified exigencies relating to the military deployment of a team member's child, spouse or parent.

[20:30] Individuals who qualify for paid leave under the policy may receive up to 80% of the regular

[20:36] weekly wages. Currently I believe the county has provided for coverage of that. Whether

[20:45] or not that will be continued in the future remains to be seen, but I think for at least

[20:50] for the first year that's held. Things will play out. Additional information about

[20:56] Without Delaware-paid family and medical leave benefits, maybe you can get those from the

[20:59] Court's office.

[21:02] Employees wishing to obtain benefits under the policy also need to contact the Court's

[21:09] office immediately upon becoming aware of the need for such leave.

[21:13] In the event of any conflict between this policy and an insurance policy, the terms

[21:17] of the insurance policy will govern.

[21:20] Coordination of benefits.

[21:21] benefits. We're an employee eligible for both short-term disability benefits in Delaware

[21:26] paid family and medical leave. Both benefits run concurrently and the employee may receive

[21:32] income replacement from two sources. Similarly, employees are permitted to use a crude but

[21:38] unused paid time off. So it's PTO, which is vacation time, sick days, cop time. And

[21:46] then we use that to supplement any benefits available under the policy. Under no circumstances,

[21:51] May an employee receive more than 100% of the regular weekly wage through any combination

[21:57] of sources?

[21:59] To the extent there's any conflict between our handbook and any insurance policies, again

[22:05] the plan under the insurance policies is going to govern.

[22:10] If you haven't seen the HR department distribute recently within the last two weeks an FAQ

[22:18] which goes through questioning for the new policy and does a really a fantastic job in addressing a lot of questions.

[22:29] I'll just go through a few of them.

[22:32] So first, the Delaware Paid Family and Medical Leave, which is PFML for short,

[22:36] is a state-required program that helps employees replace a portion of their wages while they're out of work for the reasons we discussed.

[22:47] Again, the PFML LA began January 1.

[22:52] One of the questions is, does PFML guarantee that I will keep my job when I return?

[22:58] The answer is yes.

[22:59] PFML includes job protection.

[23:02] When it ends, you will be restored to the same or equivalent position with the equivalent

[23:06] pay benefits and working conditions.

[23:11] An interesting question, how is PFML different from the Federal FMLA, which we've all become

[23:17] accustomed to?

[23:18] And the answer is, FMLA provides job protection, job protected leave only.

[23:23] It does not provide income replacement.

[23:26] PFML provides partial income replacement plus job protection and benefit continuation.

[23:34] Obviously, the employee, as we talked about, can supplement that 80 percent to get them

[23:38] to full 100%.

[23:42] We talked about who's eligible for PFML.

[23:47] Question do I have to use my own leave before using PFML?

[23:51] Answers no.

[23:52] PFML does not require you to exhaust your own sick or vacation leave first.

[23:56] On an interim basis before PFML leave is approved, you may use sick or vacation leave

[24:02] which will be reimbursed to your balance once the PFML leave is approved.

[24:09] As we talked about before, can you supplement the PFML to receive 100% of the pay?

[24:15] Answer is yes.

[24:15] You may voluntarily supplement to get to your 100%.

[24:21] Can it be used intermittently?

[24:23] And the answer is yes.

[24:24] It may be taken as continuous leave, one block of days or weeks, or intermittent

[24:30] leave, which is separate days.

[24:39] When do PFML payments start and how often are they paid?

[24:44] Under the Healthy Delaware Families Act, the first PFML payment is made within 30 days

[24:50] after your claim is filed, and then at least once every two weeks.

[24:57] What if a person doesn't

[24:58] use all of their approved PFML time? Any unused amount remains available within the

[25:05] period, subject to eligibility and medical certification requirements.

[25:13] You can also use the sick leave bank work.

[25:16] It's a separate benefit, as we know, that may provide up to six months at 100% pay

[25:20] for your own catastrophic health condition.

[25:23] If you have two plus years of service, you're an active sick leave bank member

[25:28] and you exhaust all paid leave.

[25:31] And in addition to that, you're approved for a two-week sick leave extension.

[25:35] Your condition meets the applicable medical definition, and your request is approved through the eligibility process.

[25:44] Will the person continue to earn personal leave accrual while on PFML?

[25:49] The answer is yes.

[25:50] While the person is on approved leave, the personal leave will continue to accrue.

[25:56] And then perhaps in addition to all the legal part that's very important, the factual piece, how does a person file the claim?

[26:04] I think part of that's being worked through, but if possible, they start the PFML final

[26:13] process 30 days before the lead begins.

[26:19] Nellie and I were talking about that before.

[26:21] Nellie, I don't know if she's on, but if she wants to provide any information regarding

[26:26] the actual process.

[26:29] Nellie, are you?

[26:31] I am.

[26:32] Can you hear me?

[26:32] Yes.

[26:33] Sorry to put you on the spot.

[26:34] No that's okay. So the process right now is that the and this form was also sent

[26:41] out in that email which will refer to everybody but the employee submits a

[26:48] form to the state program and their eligibility is determined that way and

[26:52] then once the eligibility is provided we would help them through the county

[26:59] process at that point.

[27:02] So basically it's the state that makes the decision

[27:07] correct about eligibility correct and I believe the employee submits like any

[27:14] doctors notes that they would have that type of thing and

[27:23] is this a little

[27:24] different than what we had previously is this a more expanded process my

[27:31] understanding is that this leave is paid for our process previously was that

[27:36] But those who were going out would file FMLA, but they would use their accrued sick and

[27:43] or vacation time while they were out.

[27:46] But this is the family medical leave, but the paid leave that now the county is paying.

[27:53] So as Mike stated, for certain circumstances it pays 100%, but others it's 80%, but you

[28:00] can supplement with the leave that you have accrued.

[28:04] Okay. Do you have more?

[28:06] Sure. One final thing, I guess.

[28:09] Four questions.

[28:10] The Mike McGlory Council.

[28:14] When Nellie was referring to the request form that got submitted to the county,

[28:20] and I think they work in conjunction with the state,

[28:22] that was part of the packet that HR sent around a couple weeks ago.

[28:25] So it provides something tangible.

[28:30] You can take a look at it and get a better understanding of exactly

[28:32] what would be required for somebody who's going to submit for PFML.

[28:39] So first the state has to confirm eligibility and basically what the county process is to

[28:46] make sure that everything is logged correctly within our system.

[28:50] Yes, I believe that's correct.

[28:52] Janet?

[28:53] Yeah.

[28:54] Yeah.

[28:56] So actually if say someone had to have like emergency surgery they wouldn't need the

[29:02] state to confirm their eligibility before they could go out. So that's what Mike was referring to,

[29:07] they could use their accrued time. And then once they submitted the paperwork and the state

[29:13] confirmed eligibility, they could get that time back. Okay, so it's someone doesn't have to like,

[29:20] obviously there's going to be circumstances where you have to go out and you're probably

[29:24] going to qualify and the county's probably going to be able to tell us, yes, they'll

[29:28] probably be deemed eligible and then they can get that time back. So they don't have

[29:33] to wait for the state to say yes before they can use time.

[29:38] Okay.

[29:40] Councilor McFadcher?

[29:42] One second. So my presumption is that looking at how council works these days, that this

[29:48] may have been more important before we had virtual, but this really in my mind is

[29:55] more important to the aides and the other employees of council.

[30:01] It's probably true. I can't speak for you all, but it may be true.

[30:05] Okay. Mr. Canneco?

[30:08] Yeah, so just so I'm clear, on the funding portion of this, we get approved by the state, and then the state is paying for it or is the county paying for it?

[30:21] I just want to be clear.

[30:23] No, the county is paying for it.

[30:26] Up to 80%, I believe.

[30:31] Okay, all right. Just want to clarify. Thank you. Any other questions from health

[30:37] members? This is just an FYI. They could decide to pass the costs on to the employees,

[30:43] but they have decided not to do that for the first year.

[30:49] As far as coming out of our pay

[30:52] checks, is that correct? Correct. An amount deemed that would fund the fund. Right. So,

[30:59] So small businesses or businesses right now, I believe, have already started that process

[31:06] where they're deducting more from each paycheck, correct?

[31:10] Correct.

[31:10] And what you're telling us is that the county and the state have not done that yet, but most

[31:15] likely will after following this first year.

[31:18] I don't know about the state, I just know that the county has decided for this first

[31:22] year not to charge employees.

[31:24] Okay.

[31:24] But all of this will be affected once that goes in.

[31:28] Correct.

[31:28] Okay, Mr. Smiley, I've had some discussion on this previously, so I'd just like to add that the county had to submit a plan to the state to get the approval to operate this way.

[31:40] So the state's still, you know, the main one, but yeah, eventually, you know, just like bloom energy and everything else, you're going to see it coming out of your check.

[31:51] Out of your check or in your building.

[31:53] Okay.

[31:55] Okay.

[31:56] Mr. McGlory.

[31:57] Thank you.

[31:59] I think it may be helpful, if everyone disagrees to let me know, but I think it may be helpful

[32:05] to distribute a copy of the FAQs as well as the form that someone would need to fill out

[32:11] to apply for it.

[32:12] And I'll place those in your mailboxes, or I'll email them around rather.

[32:18] Yeah, I think, well, at least I know it's in my email box, I don't know if everybody

[32:21] got it previously.

[32:22] Okay, that's wrong, but I'll make sure they do.

[32:24] Yeah, because the fact page is in there and I remember seeing the application.

[32:29] Any other questions from council members?

[32:33] Any questions or comments online?

[32:40] I see one member in the audience.

[32:43] Did you want to have a comment?

[32:44] Are you good?

[32:45] Okay.

[32:45] Thank you.

[32:48] All right.

[32:51] Moving on to the second phase of this meeting,

[32:55] we have an ethics training.

[32:58] This is a mandatory ethics training.

[33:00] And we have Johanna Bishop from the Ethics Commission in the audience who will be coming up and giving us the training.

[33:10] She told me before this meeting that she has shortened it some.

[33:13] So as opposed to being the full hour, she's got it down to 45 minutes.

[33:17] So none of us will starve to death tonight.

[33:23] councilwoman yes and I've been on since 302 so I just want to make sure I'm

[33:30] since this is mandatory that's all thank you we've clocked you in you don't

[33:36] want to do it twice Joanna if you do you want to come this this side would be

[33:42] and just state your name and your purpose and it is all yours I'm Johanna

[33:50] Bishop. I am a long-standing ethics commissioner and I am flying solo here

[33:56] today to give the Newcastle County Council their ethics training, annual

[34:01] mandatory ethics training. I will do my best to be entertaining and to get you

[34:07] involved in this ethics training so that the bottom line is we want you to

[34:12] remember some of the important points and avoid the red flags so that you

[34:17] get yourself the trouble and can I just say that she has trained for this

[34:22] meeting through the last few weeks she's been hiking in Iceland so she is ready

[34:27] for anything you want to give her yes

[34:35] you okay

[34:40] do you need a break now I

[34:44] think they're good you're good just sitting there okay this is a Mac book

[34:50] This is going to be interesting.

[34:53] Are you done?

[34:55] Almost.

[34:57] OK.

[34:57] That laptop is for us.

[34:59] Please tell her not to touch that.

[35:00] I have a technology challenge.

[35:02] You can't use that one.

[35:03] I brought my own laptop.

[35:05] If somebody can help me hook it up.

[35:08] You can use that side.

[35:10] Yeah.

[35:11] And if you want to, is Nellie still on?

[35:15] Nellie can.

[35:16] So she just needs to log on to the Zoom.

[35:18] And then we can promote her as a panelist

[35:20] and she can share screen.

[35:22] Okay.

[35:22] So if you go to your laptop and log on through Zoom.

[35:29] What's her email address?

[35:30] I can, if you want to,

[35:33] does she have a county email address?

[35:36] I can email her the link.

[35:38] It's outofjailatethics.com.

[35:41] Go Hannah.

[35:44] Use this one.

[35:46] Where she can email me,

[35:57] I'm sorry when I left the chamber I heard something about shorter time 45

[36:05] minutes

[36:10] well if anybody needs a break now's the time to do it then I got the three minute

[36:14] the timer.

[36:36] What is

[36:42] your county way of getting online? I can't get my V to be on to work

[36:48] here.

[36:52] Can you do it from your machine? You might jump drive if you want to do this.

[36:59] That might be easiest

[37:02] You mean loan or give because I'll take it

[37:12] The last time I had the fruit

[37:36] I thought he had a breathing tube, he talked about a breathing tube, or at least a vince.

[37:42] No, that's my understanding.

[37:45] That's probably right, so I don't think he would be talking as clearly as he did.

[37:51] If it really gets too hot, we could open the door.

[37:58] You don't realize how hot it is to walk out there and come back here.

[38:01] Yeah.

[38:01] I

[38:07] don't hear any complaining when there's icicles from the ceiling next time.

[38:13] Okay, any of it?

[38:15] It's 2026 New Council County Council.

[38:23] You can just download it to your computer.

[38:26] So there must be a difference.

[38:30] You could review it on your own time.

[38:33] Oh yeah, I'd love a little late night, early morning reading.

[38:37] Okay, it's the 2026 NCC Ethics Training.

[38:39] Yep, that's the one.

[38:50] Let me do it in slide show mode here.

[38:57] Okay, Nellie, she's going to be on my account.

[39:01] Can you see me?

[39:20] You're up on mine.

[39:21] There it is.

[39:22] Okay.

[39:23] Oh, wonderful.

[39:25] You're a genius.

[39:26] Yes.

[39:27] Where's my delete button?

[39:30] Thank you, Councilman.

[39:31] It's all about how to win friends and influence people.

[39:34] It's a presentation I did with my college students

[39:37] the other day because you know what?

[39:39] Nobody knows how to talk to each other anymore

[39:41] ever since the pandemic, if you stop and think about it.

[39:44] OK, ethics training.

[39:46] Let's get into this, people.

[39:50] OK, mandatory training.

[39:53] You've been through this before.

[39:55] So today, say

[40:06] here, why can't we not move this forward,

[40:13] Councilman George?

[40:20] Yeah, I'm trying to get to the bottom here, but it's covered up by this other stuff.

[40:27] You've got all of this. I'm going to get rid of us.

[40:30] Do you want to just stay here and be my assistant? This will be wonderful.

[40:34] Okay. How about that?

[40:37] There you go.

[40:37] Okay. So here's what I'm going to talk about.

[40:39] Here's what

[40:44] I'm going to talk about just briefly.

[40:47] Since it's a one-hour session, we're going to try to do this and lessen that.

[40:50] We're going to review the ethics code and explain the potential pitfalls

[40:55] and then remind you of the things that you're obligated to for your citizens who elected you, right?

[41:02] Because one of the obligations that you have, you have people who elected you

[41:06] you made promises to but on the other hand when you get into office as you

[41:11] will know because I'm looking around the room and you're all experienced people

[41:16] there's some people online that I don't know who I don't know and you get into

[41:23] the reality of the situation and you think oh holy cow I made some promises

[41:28] and I am not so sure that I can really keep those promises that's the

[41:32] reality of office. Do I have that right? Yes, probably pretty much. Okay, next slide.

[41:40] So, what do we do? We're going to be talking about ethical values in a

[41:45] democratic society. This is why we're doing what we're doing. Public service is a

[41:51] public trust. We transparency, accountability, stewardship. You know, this is

[41:57] democracy, right? Democracy is important. And to keep that democracy, we all have to

[42:04] do our part. Because if we don't do our part, we can already see pretty much in the world

[42:10] what's happening today what happens. Without being political, I won't go there. But as

[42:16] the Newcastle County Commissioner and Councilperson, you know that you have to be transparent

[42:24] with your people. You have to understand that you have to file your statement of financial interest.

[42:30] You have to understand that you are limited in gifts and you have to have full disclosure of any

[42:36] gifts. And you have to practice ethical decision making. Next slide.

[42:44] So where do you find the

[42:45] ethics code? Well the ethics code is right there where that file path is. You can also find

[42:54] that the Newcastle County Ethics Commission has its own website. So there's

[43:00] part of Newcastle County on the whole that talks about the Ethics Commission

[43:04] but the Ethics Commission also has its own website. Next slide.

[43:11] So the Ethics

[43:11] Code. What does the Ethics Code say? The Ethics Code really talks about

[43:18] public trust. It talks about what you are prohibited from doing and it

[43:25] prohibits conflicts of interest.

[43:28] And this is the gray fuzzy wuzzy one.

[43:31] It's the appearance of impropriety.

[43:34] And Judge Toliver, Charles Toliver, always says something

[43:37] that I really, really like.

[43:39] And he says, it's all about what would your mother think

[43:44] if they saw the headlines in the news journals?

[43:48] So keep that in mind, right?

[43:50] If what you're doing, if you have a question about that,

[43:53] Would it make a headline that your mother wouldn't want to read?

[43:59] You're all mature grown-up people. I don't think you're there anymore, right?

[44:04] So that's about the ethics code. Next slide.

[44:10] What are the major functions of the Ethics Commission?

[44:13] I'm going to see how many people really want to participate.

[44:18] So who would like to read this slide for us?

[44:21] Do we have any volunteers?

[44:23] I can read it.

[44:26] Great.

[44:27] Not close enough with or without glasses.

[44:29] There you go.

[44:32] Provides formal and informal advice to county officials and employees.

[44:37] Provides information about the ethics code and how it applies.

[44:40] Maintains files of financial disclosure forms.

[44:43] Enforces the ethics code when violations are proven.

[44:47] That's pretty straightforward, right?

[44:49] Any questions about that?

[44:51] There's nothing new here.

[44:52] Nothing that you haven't already heard.

[44:55] Okay.

[45:00] Basically, what you know is that we have seven commissioners on the ethics commission.

[45:05] Four of them are appointed by people like yourself, and three of them are appointed by the county executive.

[45:12] So right now, we have one vacancy on the ethics commission, and that is a vacancy from the executive's office.

[45:19] Now, here's the deal. We have some county council vacancies coming up this year, including mine.

[45:27] I am stepping down and the reason is because our terms are three-year terms

[45:34] and for a long long time until recent times we have said that after two three

[45:42] year terms we need to step down because it's important to organizational health

[45:47] to have fresh new blood and new minds especially in ethics to come into

[45:54] to being, and that has not been happening.

[45:57] And when that happens, alliances form,

[46:01] and then you develop a staid, dull organization.

[46:07] I don't know of any other way to put it.

[46:09] It happens not only in the Ethics Commission,

[46:11] it happens in any organization, business, industry,

[46:14] education, government, whatever.

[46:17] So it is important to have that turnover.

[46:22] We are not in the business of screening people and appointing people.

[46:28] That's your job. That's the executive's job.

[46:32] What we can do, hopefully, if we do our job, is we can try to find our replacements.

[46:38] I kind of recommend people to you.

[46:40] But you really need to put it out there to your constituents.

[46:44] We have openings on the Ethics Commission.

[46:46] And Councilman George asked me earlier, why should I ask anybody to sit on the ethics commission?

[46:53] I'm going to tell you, it is one of the most exciting offices and opportunities to serve in government that I can ever promote to somebody.

[47:04] It is the one time that I always tell people when they say, well, what do you do as an ethics commissioner?

[47:10] And I say, you know what?

[47:12] I get to help hold the government accountable.

[47:16] I get to help hold people honest.

[47:20] And they sort of laugh and chuckle,

[47:22] and we have a good joke about that.

[47:23] But it's true.

[47:25] And it is the one time you learn so much

[47:27] about the functioning of democracy and democracy at work.

[47:31] So I think you have to give this pitch

[47:33] and really make it exciting for people

[47:35] because it is so true.

[47:37] I have been a longstanding ethics commission.

[47:40] I stepped down for a couple of years. I was asked to come back, but it is time for new people to come in.

[47:47] So we have Mr. Bob Hicks, who's our chair this year. He's been our chair last year.

[47:52] He's sitting right over there. He's been a great chair. Love Mr. Hicks as our chair.

[47:57] But we also have Sally Jensen, who's been a longstanding ethics commissioner.

[48:03] We have Dr. Alan Zabak, Mr. George Thompson.

[48:09] Who am I missing here?

[48:12] We have, who am I missing, Bob?

[48:15] Okay.

[48:17] So we have seven commissioners.

[48:19] We are served by a part-time person, Ms. Allison Lewis.

[48:23] She's a part-time Newcastle County employee.

[48:25] We use the services of Ms. Julie Sebring,

[48:29] who is a contract part-time legal counsel.

[48:32] And then we also have a part-time, well, not a unit part-time, but we use the contract services of an investigator when we need an investigator.

[48:42] So that's how the ethics commission functions.

[48:45] Okay. Next slide.

[48:48] Yes. What we do is we are an independent bipartisan body.

[48:53] We're never all one party.

[48:55] We make sure that we're balanced between Democrats, Republicans, independents.

[49:01] We investigate complaints and we enforce sanctions when needed and we issue advisory opinions.

[49:10] So that's our basic function.

[49:19] We're going to the next slide there. There we go.

[49:23] So we prohibit conflicts of interest and the appearance of impropriety. That's the big one.

[49:31] Usually, we find out about that when people file complaints or when something comes to

[49:37] us one way or another.

[49:39] We don't just initiate these investigations on our own.

[49:44] We do require annual statements of financial interest.

[49:49] You have to file a financial interest statement.

[49:52] This is the season, by May 1st, when new people come in, usually within 90 days,

[49:59] when new employees are hired, not all employees, but some employees, and they will hear from

[50:04] Alice and Lewis and be told that they have to file a statement of financial interest,

[50:09] and all of this is enforced by the Ethics Commission, and it's enforced by the Ethics

[50:13] Code.

[50:15] Next slide.

[50:18] So, what's the function of a governmental ethics commission?

[50:23] This is something that I went to a governmental ethics textbook for, because I wanted us

[50:30] to think about this. Why do we have this? Why do we do this? And I want a volunteer to

[50:38] read this for us. I can do this. Councilor George is ready. Thank you. Government ethics

[50:45] involves not only the reality of obligations and the underlying relationships, but also

[50:50] the appearance of these obligations and relationships. Do you want me to read them all?

[50:58] Government

[50:58] facilitate the handling of conflict situations.

[51:01] Government ethics programs provide training and advice

[51:03] to further facilitate the handling of conflict situations.

[51:07] Government ethics programs also require financial

[51:10] and relationship disclosures which provide information

[51:12] to help the public as well as officials

[51:14] better determine the conflicts if conflicts might exist

[51:17] so that they are more likely to be dealt with responsibly.

[51:20] The principal goal of local government ethics programs

[51:23] to further the public's trust in those

[51:26] who govern their communities to put their personal interests aside in favor of the public interest.

[51:32] And without this trust, people tend not to participate in their government, even as voters,

[51:36] and they feel as if their government was something apart from their community, an organization

[51:40] designed to benefit its members rather than an organization that serves and manages

[51:44] the community.

[51:46] So what is the one word in all of that language that stands out to you?

[51:51] What's the one word that stands out?

[51:54] Trust.

[51:55] That's a big one, right?

[51:58] What happens when you lose that trust?

[52:00] You can't get that trust back with just one action.

[52:04] You can't get that trust back with just one term.

[52:09] You lose that trust and it's going to take a long time before you get that trust back.

[52:16] So you have to think about what you're doing.

[52:18] It's all about developing that public trust because at the same time you lose that

[52:24] trust you're losing your voters. You all know that. I'm preaching to the choir

[52:28] here. But we need to say it because we need to hear it and we need to remind

[52:34] ourselves.

[52:38] Statements of financial interest. Any questions about that? It's

[52:42] old hat to you. You know that you have to file that, right? Okay.

[52:49] If you have

[52:49] any questions about statement of financial interest or if there's

[52:52] something on there or you have trouble navigating that system, we have

[52:55] problems with that sometimes. Just contact Alison Lewis, you know, Councilman Cartier,

[53:02] right? Yes. You nodding, yes? I think the same thing, and I'll be calling. I've been doing

[53:08] it so many years. I'll say, Alison, help me out here. So there's no shame in calling

[53:12] Alison, and she'd rather help you out and get it done. She's great that way. So conflicts

[53:18] of interest. It's one of the many, many issues that confront all of you, confront

[53:23] not all of us, no matter what our jobs are, conflicts of interest.

[53:31] They can be personnel interests, financial, family interests that overlap with your official

[53:38] duties.

[53:39] Think about it, you were elected and then after you were elected, how many times did

[53:45] somebody come up to you and say, hey, now that you're elected, I really need help

[53:50] with and you're kind of thinking yeah well you know can I really do that yeah

[54:01] you know we all have these questions I'm director of behavioral science

[54:05] programs at Wilmington University sometimes people come up to me and say

[54:11] hey you know the people who know me the people I've I've had interactions with

[54:17] because I'm involved in the community and they'll say you know my kid is

[54:21] coming to school there. Can you help with this, that, or the other thing? You do your

[54:26] best, but you have to know your boundaries. You have to know your limits. All of this

[54:33] can lead to bias decision-making. That's what we have to watch out for is the bias decision-making.

[54:39] We have to be aware of when we're putting ourselves in the effort to want to please

[54:44] somebody else, in the effort to want to help somebody else. Let's face it, you're

[54:49] You're not making a million dollars by serving in this public capacity, right?

[54:54] You are doing this because you felt compelled to do something in government to make the world

[55:01] a better place.

[55:02] That's why you're sitting in these seats or you're online right now, because you're

[55:06] good people.

[55:08] You wanted to do this, but at the same time, there are going to be times when you put

[55:14] in that situation, you have to watch out for it.

[55:16] Okay. Next slide. Conflicts of interest. Here's an example. Voting on zoning near

[55:24] family-owned property. Anybody ever have that one? I see smiles, you don't have to

[55:32] admit to it. What do you do? I mean, what do you do when you do that? I see a

[55:37] lot of chuckles. Doesn't seem to be too uncommon. Next click.

[55:44] Accepting

[55:45] Consulting fees from a vendor with county contracts. Is that a red flag or not?

[55:52] Is it?

[55:54] Would you accept a consulting fee?

[55:57] From a vendor who has county contracts. Is that okay to do?

[56:02] Councilman Smiley you get an A today

[56:05] He says no, I can't do that like them then I'll take their money and get them that

[56:12] Okay, all right next click

[56:16] Overlapping campaign contributions and council decisions.

[56:21] Oh, okay.

[56:23] Councilman George says, oh, she's mouthing something there.

[56:26] And she's taking her head no.

[56:29] So she's already saying this is not good.

[56:32] Next slide.

[56:35] Okay.

[56:35] Let's go down a decision tree here.

[56:38] Conflict of interest.

[56:39] Okay.

[56:42] Are you involved in a decision, a transaction?

[56:49] or what's the next word for negotiation?

[56:51] For activity for the organization.

[56:53] There you go.

[56:54] I have to attribute this wonderful flow chart to Ray Carr who couldn't be here today.

[57:00] So, start the flow chart.

[57:02] If the answer is no, then there's no conflict of interest.

[57:05] However, what do we do if the answer is yes?

[57:08] We go to the next slide.

[57:10] Do you or your immediate family member or close associate have a personal financial professional interest in this site?

[57:22] If there's no conflicts of interest, you end. If it's yes, we go to the next slide.

[57:33] Janet, do you want to read that one?

[57:35] Sure.

[57:37] Could this interest reasonably influence or appear to influence your judgment or actions?

[57:44] And if it's no?

[57:48] Then it's done, right?

[57:48] It's done.

[57:50] What do we do if it's yes?

[57:52] We move to the next slide.

[57:55] She's got it.

[57:57] Okay.

[57:59] So the next slide, I can't read it this.

[58:01] I'll read it.

[58:02] Is the interest prohibited by law, regulation, policy, or contract?

[58:07] Okay.

[58:09] So if it says yes, then what?

[58:13] Prohibited conflict of interest.

[58:15] Yeah, it's prohibited.

[58:17] Immediate disclosure.

[58:19] You recuse yourself or remove yourself.

[58:24] You turn it over to some sort of management.

[58:27] I mean, who would you turn it over to?

[58:28] Probably the Ethics Commission, right?

[58:30] a legal review and that would be the end. But if it's no, then what happens? If it's

[58:39] no, can this conflict be effectively mitigated? If it's yes, it's a managed

[58:47] conflict of interest, you disclose it in writing, your recusal from

[58:52] decisions, independent review, you put in safeguards, ongoing monitoring, and

[58:59] And that's the end of that story.

[59:01] So there are ways to manage this.

[59:03] Councilman Smiley.

[59:04] One thing that we've run into, not a lot, just a couple of times over the years that

[59:09] we have addressed it as a council, a couple of things that we've run into a couple of

[59:13] times here on council over the years, and we've addressed it as a council, is some

[59:17] people don't realize when you recuse yourself, you're not only recusing yourselves from

[59:22] voting, you're not to be in the discussion part of it, either, to say it to influence.

[59:26] Some people think when they're recusing, you're just recusing from the vote.

[59:31] No, no, no.

[59:31] It's from all discussion and all matters related to it.

[59:34] No.

[59:35] A lot of people don't realize it.

[59:36] We shut.

[59:39] They're not here anymore.

[59:40] When you're recusing yourself, it's even just better to remove yourself from the room,

[59:48] from the entire discussion.

[59:50] Go to another room, excuse yourself from that whole discussion.

[59:54] Don't even be near the discussion.

[1:00:00] What is what recusal is? You don't vote, but you don't take part of the discussion.

[1:00:05] I've got a conflict with this meeting. I've removed myself.

[1:00:09] You're doing your job. No, you don't get to recuse yourself. You get to sit here and listen to it all until I'm done.

[1:00:16] I'm telling you. Remember, I just gave you that, hey, you got to stay here.

[1:00:20] Okay. Next slide. Okay.

[1:00:24] I think we're almost done here with that one.

[1:00:29] If it's an unmanageable conflict of interest, we reassign the duties and we divest the interests,

[1:00:37] we decline the transaction of the role, we document the resolution, and it's the end

[1:00:42] of the story.

[1:00:43] So the documentation of all of this is really, really important.

[1:00:48] So it's documentation, documentation, documentation.

[1:00:51] It's the thing that is going to save the day.

[1:00:55] I have to do it as an educator with problem student issues.

[1:01:00] Something as simple as that, but you might think a problem student issue is just very

[1:01:05] simple compared to what you have to handle.

[1:01:08] You would be amazed at the legalities involved in a lot of this.

[1:01:13] So we live in a day and age because of technology, because of transparency, because

[1:01:19] Because of everything else, it's documentation that saves the day for everything.

[1:01:24] So protect yourself.

[1:01:26] Next slide.

[1:01:28] Okay.

[1:01:28] Conflict resolution.

[1:01:30] How do we manage conflict resolution?

[1:01:33] First of all, you disclose the conflict.

[1:01:37] Secondly, we recuse from the discussion and the vote.

[1:01:43] And I disagree with Ray when he said, if necessary, I say always you do that.

[1:01:49] and you document the actions for transparency. Next slide. Appearance of

[1:01:55] impropriety. Okay, there's a lot of language here. I'm going to leave this

[1:01:59] slideshow with you. I'm not going to read all of this. I'm going to summarize this.

[1:02:04] One of the advantages ethics commissioners have is COGEL. You may have

[1:02:09] heard about COGEL. It's the Council on Governmental Laws and Ethics, or

[1:02:13] Governmental Ethics and Laws. And we take advantage. We have a Commission

[1:02:18] membership to Kogel and every year we have one or two commissioners who attend

[1:02:23] Kogel. I have attended Kogel myself several times. It's been an annual

[1:02:29] conference where you really get to learn a lot about governmental ethics and

[1:02:34] laws and the appearance of impropriety is always a topic for discussion.

[1:02:46] It's

[1:02:47] stated regulation, but the appearance doesn't really look good. It's the

[1:02:54] objects. So you have to be really careful about, you know, follow your own

[1:02:59] intuition. If something doesn't look or smell good, maybe it has an appearance of

[1:03:05] impropriety. And Kogel has another definition around that with the next

[1:03:10] slide, if you could go to that. Kogel also says that the appearance of

[1:03:16] different propriety. Ms. George, if you don't mind, go to the next slide. Thank you. I really

[1:03:22] appreciate your help and all this. This is worth reading. Could we do a round robin and

[1:03:30] could somebody read number two, number one? Who will volunteer to read number one?

[1:03:34] I got it. Appearance of impropriety, key components of the definition of reasonable

[1:03:38] person standard. The perception is not based on suspicion or conjecture but on what

[1:03:44] a reasonable person would think you have to review the facts.

[1:03:47] Perfect.

[1:03:48] Thank you.

[1:03:49] Number two?

[1:03:50] I'll read that.

[1:03:51] Beyond actual conflict, it applies to actions that are technically legal but still look improper

[1:03:57] or self-serving.

[1:03:59] Number three?

[1:04:00] Number three, erosion of public confidence, the standard aims to protect public trust

[1:04:05] in government, recognizing that perceived misconduct is as damaging as actual misconduct.

[1:04:10] Number four?

[1:04:12] Scope. It covers actions that might create the appearance that an employee is viling the law or ethical standards.

[1:04:19] Okay. And the last bullet?

[1:04:23] The principle is that we must ensure that officials avoid situations such as specific personal relationships or financial injuries that might raise ethical questions.

[1:04:36] Excellent. So those are valuable points. This is really what Kogel says about appearance of impropriety.

[1:04:42] So you can see it's really kind of a gray area. It's not all that black and white.

[1:04:48] So going to the next slide.

[1:04:51] Remember, as an elected official, you're always going to be under scrutiny.

[1:04:56] And you know that. Next slide.

[1:04:59] So transparency and disclosure.

[1:05:03] The following may always be called in for review, for evidence, open meetings, FOIA,

[1:05:10] obligations, public records, emails, texts, group chats, statements of financial

[1:05:16] interest. Next slide. Use of county resources. Pay attention to this one. Do

[1:05:23] not use county staff for campaign tasks. Use county vehicles for personal or

[1:05:32] political activity, and blend county and campaign events,

[1:05:39] especially finances.

[1:05:41] And you have to keep in mind that this

[1:05:45] has to be a shared or an equitable allocation

[1:05:50] of resources.

[1:05:51] You have to be careful about the gifts and favors.

[1:05:55] You all know about that.

[1:05:56] You can't accept gifts and favors.

[1:05:58] Keep in mind, we hope that your office,

[1:06:00] that all of your offices have gift logs.

[1:06:03] I know that when we do training for county employees,

[1:06:06] a lot of them have said that they do have gift logs

[1:06:09] and some of them have said they don't know

[1:06:11] where the gift log is.

[1:06:13] So we always tell everybody,

[1:06:14] if you don't know where the gift log is,

[1:06:16] make sure you find out where the gift log is

[1:06:18] because that's important.

[1:06:21] So the next click on this slide is

[1:06:23] there's no acceptance of gifts to official influence.

[1:06:27] There's no box seats, no trips, no meals, all high-risk stuff.

[1:06:35] There is no reportable, even if no act is taken.

[1:06:41] I was reading something online at Kogel the other day where somebody asked,

[1:06:50] what's the

[1:06:52] name for the gambling establishment, casino.

[1:06:55] You know, our casino rewards reportable gifts.

[1:07:00] And I thought, isn't that interesting?

[1:07:03] That came from somebody in Massachusetts.

[1:07:05] So think about that one.

[1:07:07] That's something that may come up.

[1:07:09] So next slide.

[1:07:12] Gifts and resources do as undone, politely decline them,

[1:07:16] report gifts or favors.

[1:07:19] If they meet disclosure thresholds,

[1:07:22] use county resources only for official business. Next slide.

[1:07:29] Okay. Councilman George, you want

[1:07:32] to read that? I can't read that from here.

[1:07:34] Give some resources to us and don't. Don't. Except free tickets, meals or trips from

[1:07:39] lobbyists or vendors. Don't use staff or vehicles for campaign or personal work and

[1:07:43] don't blur the line between county duties and political activities.

[1:07:46] and that's not blurring the line is a really tough one because you have this

[1:07:52] role and then you have that role so I think that's the biggest challenge is

[1:07:57] keeping those lines really distinct and that's a sort of a stress and

[1:08:01] attention that you're faced with all the time.

[1:08:06] Okay, do you want to go into

[1:08:08] scenarios or do you just want me to get to the bottom line? What is your

[1:08:12] preference bottom line bottom line we'll skip the scenarios okay top 10

[1:08:20] commandments we're going to do a round-robed reading of the top 10

[1:08:24] commandments and then we're almost done implement internal control standard

[1:08:28] procedures and code of ethics institute checks and balances rotate

[1:08:34] responsibility over personal friendship. Empower employees to do the right thing.

[1:08:51] Communicate with those who need to know. Be transparent, learn from the incident.

[1:08:59] Okay. I mean, these are good things to keep in mind all the time. Okay. Next slide. We'll

[1:09:09] skip that scenario. There are ethics tools that you can use. Keep them in mind. The Ethics

[1:09:16] Commission is here for you. We're not a punitive entity. Ask for an advisory opinion if you're

[1:09:25] not sure about something.

[1:09:27] The statement of financial interests always are there.

[1:09:30] Answer them honestly.

[1:09:31] They're there to help you.

[1:09:33] They will protect you also.

[1:09:36] You can file an ethics complaint.

[1:09:39] There's nothing wrong with filing an ethics complaint.

[1:09:42] We look at that.

[1:09:43] We investigate it.

[1:09:44] It could be, yeah, it's not really an ethics complaint.

[1:09:47] Or it could be, yeah, there's something there.

[1:09:49] And we need to investigate it.

[1:09:51] It's there to protect you.

[1:09:52] And then there are state whistleblowing protections.

[1:09:56] So these are ethics tools that you can use.

[1:09:59] Next slide.

[1:10:04] The ethical decision framework.

[1:10:06] Just a series of steps.

[1:10:08] Just click through them all.

[1:10:10] Just basically, you know, identify the stakeholders,

[1:10:15] clarify the duties to evaluate the options,

[1:10:18] apply transparency tests, you know,

[1:10:20] the front page headline test that Charles Toliver talks about.

[1:10:23] and then make a decision but at the same time document it. The ethical

[1:10:31] decision checklist there for you is, you know, who are the stakeholders that are

[1:10:36] affected and does the ethics code allow this action? With this past the front

[1:10:41] page test, does it create an appearance of favoritism or misuse? And am I

[1:10:47] comfortable documenting this publicly? You know, if not then you ask for an

[1:10:53] advisory opinion. Now, here's the thing about advisory opinions. Don't ask for an advisory

[1:10:58] opinion after the fact. Ask for it beforehand. We cannot bless you off after you've committed

[1:11:06] the sin. We are not the priests. We're not the confessional. We're not the Catholic

[1:11:12] church. I say that, yes, I'm Catholic, but, you know, you've got to be grown up

[1:11:19] about this and fill up your big boy pants, big girl pants.

[1:11:23] Okay, next slide.

[1:11:26] The gifts dilemma.

[1:11:27] Oh, here's a good one.

[1:11:28] We'll ask you this one.

[1:11:29] A lobbyist offers you box seats to a sports game.

[1:11:32] What do you do?

[1:11:34] Well, you politely decline or disclose it.

[1:11:38] You disclose it, but you still decline it.

[1:11:41] You don't accept it.

[1:11:43] Next slide.

[1:11:48] Top 10 red flags.

[1:11:51] Okay.

[1:11:51] These red flags are things that are important for you to know and I know that

[1:11:57] you know them, but this can also be applied to your staff because

[1:12:05] remember it's not just you who is under pressure with people but it's your

[1:12:10] staff because your staff may be approached somebody will say, oh well

[1:12:20] need help with this, you know, that's how it works too. So extraordinary in netness, particularly

[1:12:29] record keeping, keeping up with the Kardashians. Again, you're going to have this whole slideshow.

[1:12:38] Councilman George, if you wouldn't mind distributing it with all the council

[1:12:42] members, that would be great. You'll see, you know, all in the family when family members

[1:12:48] are hired and inappropriately so every day is Friday the 13th meaning meaning

[1:12:55] is constantly a disaster and married to the mob that everybody is you know married

[1:13:01] to all the contractors what not so these are just all red flags and signals

[1:13:08] for you to remember and the next slide is the common pitfall the blind spot we

[1:13:18] We all seek moral justification for all of our actions.

[1:13:25] We can justify with a moral reason everything we do, no matter how bad it is.

[1:13:34] And that's human nature.

[1:13:37] So avoid that pitfall, avoid that blind spot, just do the right thing.

[1:13:44] when you get that creepy willy-nilly's, it's wrong. Just don't do it. And the last

[1:13:52] slide is, that's the end. Aristotle said, we learn to be just by doing things that

[1:14:01] are just. Okay? That's all folks. That's all I have to share with you today. Be

[1:14:08] Well thank you so much sorry I'm sorry to see your term is up in that you're

[1:14:17] leaving been wonderful for council wonderful for the county and we

[1:14:23] appreciate all of the trainings that you've put us through and mr. Hicks when

[1:14:29] I said there was only one person in the audience from up here I didn't

[1:14:32] recognize you I apologize or I would have introduced you you know there's

[1:14:40] that fine line between needing glasses and not needing glasses and he was

[1:14:45] trying to hide anyone yeah I know but thank you for coming

[1:14:51] comment madam chairwoman is there is there an opportunity to ask questions or

[1:14:55] no yes okay mr. Koneko

[1:15:00] Great training and a lot of good information. And, you know, as we look at ethics throughout

[1:15:06] different jurisdictions, I would like to ask the opinion if the, let's say we have legislation

[1:15:14] that said a developer cannot contribute to a campaign within 90 days when they are pending

[1:15:22] developing developments before somebody. How do you feel that would be ethically?

[1:15:29] Johanna, did you hear that question? I heard the first part of that question.

[1:15:37] Do you repeat the last part of the question? The developer?

[1:15:40] The rest of the jurisdictions have done this legislation that says that if you're a developer,

[1:15:45] you can't contribute 90 days to maybe 120 days prior to an election to a candidate

[1:15:51] when you have pending buildings or, you know, plans before them,

[1:15:56] how do you feel that would be through an ethical standpoint?

[1:16:00] I'm just curious.

[1:16:01] I'm not so sure that that would fall within the Ethics Commission purview.

[1:16:07] I think that's more of a Newcastle County contractual issue,

[1:16:13] and that's something that Newcastle County has to deal with in the contracts.

[1:16:18] Okay.

[1:16:19] Because a lot of the slides you said, we're talking about conflicts of interest and whether

[1:16:23] there's money involved and proprietary of how it looks to the public.

[1:16:29] So I would think that if a developer gave you a check 60 days before your election and

[1:16:35] had a plan pending before you, that there could possibly be a problem.

[1:16:40] Do you not agree with that?

[1:16:41] Okay.

[1:16:42] You're talking.

[1:16:46] in the actual contractual campaign of building you're talking about actually

[1:16:53] giving money to somebody before an election yeah I would not think of that's

[1:17:00] very ethical and I would say that that's something that's a problem okay thank

[1:17:08] you very much I think we could debate that one yes I have a when you if you

[1:17:12] think about primaries if you would say that means that you are you are

[1:17:17] telling somebody that they cannot contribute within the legal timeframe of a campaign season.

[1:17:22] Because general and primary are two different seasons for contributions.

[1:17:28] Mr. Smiley.

[1:17:29] The problem you can get into with a scenario like this is, and it's the same thing with

[1:17:35] the SFI, just coming up to an election and you've got an opponent.

[1:17:39] it. The ethics violation or alleged violation would only apply to the incumbent member.

[1:17:48] The opponent doesn't have to file an SFI, and the 90s would not apply to them because they

[1:17:55] don't fall under the ethics code unless they're elected and holding office. So that's where

[1:18:02] That's where you run into the situation.

[1:18:06] I mean, I understand what Councilman Konekka is saying

[1:18:08] because,

[1:18:11] and I'm sure there may be people out there

[1:18:13] that can be bought for $600.

[1:18:15] I just don't think I've met any of them yet.

[1:18:19] I hope so.

[1:18:19] Right, I mean, I don't know that we,

[1:18:23] this isn't on the agenda.

[1:18:24] I don't know that we wanna get into this whole discussion

[1:18:26] but I, we in Newcastle County don't set those rules.

[1:18:31] Those come, they're state-driven, so I would think that that needs to come through the

[1:18:38] state and the General Assembly if they want to change something.

[1:18:41] But I see definite conflicts in who you are backing out of the political system, knowing

[1:18:48] that there's a general and a primary in many, many instances.

[1:18:54] And I tend to agree with you, Councilman Calpatrick, that I do think the state should

[1:18:59] take some initiative on this and but if we listen to that training closely and we watch

[1:19:06] those slides, there is definitely an understanding that having certain interests give you money

[1:19:17] in a political campaign while a development plan or something is before a county council

[1:19:22] could clearly, could clearly get a conflict of interest and just something that I raise.

[1:19:29] I know, and I see your point, but I don't see the difference between 60 days and 6 months.

[1:19:37] You know, we all started campaigns at least a year ahead of time.

[1:19:41] Some of the organizations, whether they have plans in or not, give something on an annual

[1:19:45] basis as a continuum.

[1:19:48] So if somebody is going to give me $600 and they give it to me in January, what's

[1:19:55] What's the difference between doing that or giving it to me 60 days before my election?

[1:20:00] They're capped no matter what.

[1:20:02] I think the 60 days is not really the relevant point.

[1:20:07] The time frame is not the point.

[1:20:09] The thing is, the point is to get around it unless you go to self-funded campaigns.

[1:20:16] Because we're talking about...

[1:20:18] Or government.

[1:20:18] We're talking about developers.

[1:20:20] Well, that might as well be self-funded if you're going to use taxpayer money.

[1:20:23] But you're talking about developers, but I look at the other side as well, the non-profits,

[1:20:29] the other organizations who don't consider themselves special interests, but what about

[1:20:34] those organizations that oppose the plans that are out there?

[1:20:40] And retrospect, they shouldn't be given either, because that would also be an appearance

[1:20:44] of impropriety.

[1:20:46] So the only way to get away from it is...

[1:20:50] Great.

[1:20:51] Nobody.

[1:20:52] Mr. Hollins.

[1:20:53] I think the challenge for me is the fact that everyone has a right to contribute and

[1:20:58] they're lost in government when there's a conflict.

[1:21:02] At the same time, I know that I personally have been accused of being influenced because

[1:21:06] I receive money from developers.

[1:21:08] I know there are other special interests out there.

[1:21:10] I'm just as ethical as anybody else on council.

[1:21:14] So the paint that picture to me is going on a slippery slope and a very false slope.

[1:21:18] There's special interest on everything that comes before this council.

[1:21:22] But to decide now to develop a community that's the one that's got all the bad apples doesn't

[1:21:26] make any sense at all.

[1:21:27] Plus, we have four-year terms.

[1:21:29] How can someone say, I want to make a contribution, but for four years I can't vote the way

[1:21:33] I feel without being accused of having some influence?

[1:21:37] Well, I can, I'll just share a story, Mr. Sheldon will like this one.

[1:21:41] Mr. Sheldon and I were in a lawsuit for 12 plus years

[1:21:45] over something that was his district and then became my district.

[1:21:50] And every year, the people that we were suing gave us contributions.

[1:21:56] They knew it was not going to change our minds on anything.

[1:22:02] You're putting together so many different things here.

[1:22:05] You have to decide, we do land use.

[1:22:08] You have to decide within land use

[1:22:09] If this is something that's code compliant, if it is $600 one way or another, I don't think

[1:22:17] it's going to make a difference in any campaign in this county.

[1:22:24] If it does, then I think you need to rethink whether being in county government is something

[1:22:31] that you should really be doing.

[1:22:32] Mr. Carter.

[1:22:34] Yeah.

[1:22:35] Boy, I've had a bite of this apple once before, and I don't even like looking at it.

[1:22:41] But the bottom line is campaign finance is the state responsibility, and if they want

[1:22:46] to do campaign finance reform, the state can do it.

[1:22:50] What we could do, what I thought I was going to try and do once before, was we do have

[1:22:56] code that asks for those people that have business before us that are influencing

[1:22:59] to disclose that.

[1:23:01] And we're not doing a real good job.

[1:23:03] That's to be reported to the clerk or the deputy clerk.

[1:23:07] You know, it would be nice to go online.

[1:23:09] I question whether it should be within council

[1:23:11] or if those reports should actually be under the ethics board.

[1:23:16] I'd love to have the Ethics Commission take a look at that

[1:23:19] and see if that's a better option

[1:23:21] because it's about transparency.

[1:23:23] It's about disclosure.

[1:23:25] You know, I mean, there are certain districts

[1:23:27] that are desperate for new development

[1:23:30] and if developments are contributing,

[1:23:31] my guess is some of those communities that want that work support that and that's

[1:23:38] part of the process whether we like it or not you know we all make our own

[1:23:42] choices whether we do or don't accept those funds but I think the disclosure

[1:23:47] part and the way we report and and the way we could improve standing county

[1:23:53] code it's the parallel to the state lobbying disclosures at the state level

[1:23:58] So we have something for people influencing already in county code and we just may want

[1:24:05] to take a look at it and see whether we're doing a good enough job and whether it belongs

[1:24:09] with council or whether that is something that like the financial disclosure stuff

[1:24:13] should be tracked by the ethics commission.

[1:24:15] And I'm just going to leave it there.

[1:24:17] I think it's a bad path to go down for the campaign finance stuff.

[1:24:22] That's clearly a state jurisdiction.

[1:24:24] They could do what they want to do there.

[1:24:26] but we can look at transparency and disclosure.

[1:24:30] Mr. Hollins, do you have a comment?

[1:24:32] I've seen it happen quite frankly to me personally

[1:24:35] because we've reported to the state,

[1:24:37] I've been mentioned so many times,

[1:24:39] and every time they reach, they know who contributed to my campaign

[1:24:42] because they report it.

[1:24:43] They use it against me because they don't like the one I'm going to vote.

[1:24:46] So it's been used as a weapon.

[1:24:49] It's fine as long as you agree with someone.

[1:24:50] As long as you don't disagree with them,

[1:24:52] then you're unethical because you don't agree.

[1:24:55] That's what's used to beat you up with.

[1:24:57] That's what happened to me.

[1:24:59] It happened to all of us.

[1:24:59] All of us.

[1:25:00] Because someone don't like the way you vote, then somehow you are unethical because you

[1:25:03] don't agree with them, that's crazy on his face.

[1:25:08] Mr. Smiley.

[1:25:09] I'm just going to say, having had, I don't think I'm up to three charges against me

[1:25:14] so far, but anything that has to do with the campaign is the Department of Elections.

[1:25:20] it falls outside the jurisdiction of our ethics commission. The ethics commission is the gifts.

[1:25:26] So lobbyists, whatever, that's a gift. If it's into your campaign, again, you're reporting it

[1:25:32] if they're an attorney with a law firm. That law firm's reporting it. So the reporting is out

[1:25:37] there. If the state wants to do anything about it, let them do it. They'll probably do that

[1:25:41] right after they do the term limits. And I do think that a lot of this is sensationalism.

[1:25:48] You know, anybody that wants to say something to you to make you feel like you've done something wrong or to make others feel like you've done something wrong, this is what they throw out there.

[1:25:58] And I have a standard answer for that, that if they truly believe that, it is their responsibility to go to the attorney general and file a complaint.

[1:26:07] And that pretty much shuts it down because 99.9% of the people that call you out on that, they have no clue what your finances even look like.

[1:26:16] It is just hype to try to get people to feel like you're doing something wrong.

[1:26:22] Madam President.

[1:26:23] Also, I'm going to match her.

[1:26:24] So why don't you just respond to that and saying this.

[1:26:27] Can you hold on a minute because we still have the council president that wants to comment.

[1:26:32] Thank you.

[1:26:33] I think it's dangerous for us to assume that someone, a developer or a nonprofit,

[1:26:41] Anyone gives you a check or a money order towards your campaign to assume that we're going to vote in their favor.

[1:26:52] So you can't say that person, that council person or elected official is going to do that.

[1:27:00] And it's a personal choice what your vote is.

[1:27:03] And we should not criticize or even talk about the individual and use it against them, which

[1:27:13] has been done and is still being done, assuming that they're going to vote in favor of those

[1:27:19] individuals that are contributing to their campaign.

[1:27:22] So that's a fine line.

[1:27:24] We have to be careful because really we're saying that the council or the elected official

[1:27:29] has no integrity and they have no mind of their own so they can't vote their

[1:27:34] conscience or vote what they're believing in because someone is giving them some

[1:27:38] funds. Because basically what we vote is what's legal. And Mr. Caneko, sorry. No, I

[1:27:47] appreciate that and I understand there's people at County Council that

[1:27:49] will take every developer check they can to run a campaign. However, what I am

[1:27:55] trying to say is that there is a public trust integrity issue in which people

[1:27:59] look at that and say that doesn't look right to me and there has been many

[1:28:04] jurisdictions that have put in six month or nine month jurisdictions the city of

[1:28:08] Los Angeles has done this to say we do not want that happening we do not want

[1:28:13] somebody giving a six hundred dollar check before it comes for county

[1:28:15] We just listened to a 60 minutes 40 60 40 whatever it is minutes.

[1:28:23] All right.

[1:28:26] Presentation before the ethics commission in which the other commission basically said, yeah, if you give a $600 check between six to 60 days before a primary election or a general election that might look like impropriety.

[1:28:38] I'm sorry, Council President.

[1:28:40] You can't even file your campaign finances correctly.

[1:28:42] Can we not, excuse me, Mr. Canneco, Mr. Canneco, can we not disparage anybody on this council?

[1:28:50] You're talking about filing, you put $500 for gas on your campaign council.

[1:28:55] Mr. Canneco, he's out of order.

[1:28:56] Mr. Canneco, this is out of order.

[1:28:58] It is over with.

[1:29:00] If anybody has the ability to shut him off, shut him off.

[1:29:03] I am tired of the disparagement that goes on between people within this council.

[1:29:09] We all believe in what we're doing.

[1:29:11] We do it according to the code and again if you are not doing it because of the law

[1:29:18] Then you have an attorney general and you just need to go and contact them

[1:29:22] But we are not going to sit on this council and watch one

[1:29:26] We are not going to watch one council person

[1:29:30] Somebody else motion to move

[1:29:33] That would like to make a statement mr. Hicks

[1:29:37] Mr. Rob

[1:29:42] Can you wait for a minute until we hear from Mr. Hicks and or Ms. Bishop, Mr. Street?

[1:29:52] I have the ball.

[1:29:54] Mr. Hicks.

[1:29:55] Okay, so I'm Robert Hicks, I am current.

[1:30:07] So I am currently the chair for the Ethics Commission and the councilmen and all of you have

[1:30:17] raised very good points. The thing that's most important for us, though, is that on many occasions

[1:30:24] contributions. The courts have specifically stated that campaign contributions are free

[1:30:30] speech and therefore it can't be, there's a limit to what we can do with that. As a

[1:30:38] result also that means that to a large extent because it's free speech, it would be very

[1:30:43] difficult for the Ethics Commission to do anything that has to do with campaign finances.

[1:30:51] several of the council members have stated that the proper place for this to be is with

[1:30:56] the Department of Elections or whoever specifically enforces campaign contributions that I think

[1:31:03] is a accurate statement.

[1:31:06] And so I see your point as a person and as a member of the Ethics Commission.

[1:31:17] I definitely see your point, but it would be very difficult for us as a group or as individuals

[1:31:27] to shut down free speech, and that's basically what the courts have stated.

[1:31:32] Now there are other avenues that any of us can go through to try to change the law and

[1:31:40] make this a different scenario.

[1:31:43] but right now we're dealing with what we have right now and what we have right

[1:31:50] now is person has a has a right to freaks feet speaks freely and that's where

[1:31:59] we're at thank you miss Bishop did you want to say something are you thank

[1:32:06] Thank you.

[1:32:07] Thank you.

[1:32:09] Thank you.

[1:32:10] Thank you.

[1:32:11] Thank you.

[1:32:11] Mr. Street.

[1:32:15] Thank you, Madam.

[1:32:18] Thank you, Madam Chair.

[1:32:22] Y'all can sit here for the next two hours and come up with hypotheticals.

[1:32:27] And then we're not going to have universal agreement on what is and what isn't ethical.

[1:32:34] Um, so y'all, y'all keep on having this hypothetical discussion and have fun for the rest of the

[1:32:42] night because I'm not going to continue to deal with it.

[1:32:47] And you know, it looks like now every, every other council meeting, there's an outburst

[1:32:56] and Councilman Conneco, you can do what you want to do.

[1:32:59] Say what you want to say.

[1:33:01] Well, if it's me and you, that's one thing.

[1:33:02] If it's you and Penrose that's one thing, if it's you and Councilwoman Kilpatrick that's

[1:33:09] one thing, if it's you and the President that's one thing, but you're the common denominator

[1:33:17] here.

[1:33:18] And if you ain't part of the solution, you're part of the problem and you're a major part

[1:33:22] of it.

[1:33:26] Mr. Hollins. Thank you, Mr. Streep. Thank you, Madam President.

[1:33:30] What I realized from the public, this council has deteriorated, and it's very true.

[1:33:39] People that are not even on this council are talking about this council, the public impression of us.

[1:33:45] It's just a few characters that's making it happen.

[1:33:48] We need to behave ourselves, stop picking on people.

[1:33:51] You don't like someone? If you've got an idea, bring it before the floor and get a vote on it.

[1:33:55] That's how it works.

[1:33:57] When you don't agree with someone, then somehow you've got a problem and you just stop.

[1:34:04] Just bring it to the floor and have a legitimate debate without disparaging anybody.

[1:34:09] Thank you.

[1:34:10] Madam President, did you want to?

[1:34:12] Was your hand up?

[1:34:14] Oh, no.

[1:34:15] I'm okay.

[1:34:16] Thank you.

[1:34:17] Thank you.

[1:34:18] Madam Chair.

[1:34:19] Mr. Canneco.

[1:34:20] Let me make something very clear to the members of County Council.

[1:34:24] I am a duly elected representative.

[1:34:27] We are all of us, every last one of us is a duly elected.

[1:34:33] So what's so special about that, and I'm going to say it again,

[1:34:36] the problem is you're the common denominator, except it

[1:34:40] and deal with it, because all of us are sick of you

[1:34:43] and your foolishness.

[1:34:46] Madam President, Madam Chair, are you going to allow that

[1:34:49] to happen, or are you going to let me speak?

[1:34:51] You are allowed to speak. Mr. Connect. Okay, because because I'm clearly I'm the problem

[1:34:56] We just witnessed what just happened in the last 10 15 seconds when I'm the problem

[1:35:00] So let me let me that they make something very clear. I'll repeat myself. I

[1:35:05] Don't care if Jay Street doesn't like what I'm saying

[1:35:11] Can I have a motion to adjourn?

[1:35:20] This movie is adjourned.

Jan 20, 2026 Personnel Subcommittee Meeting

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