[0:35] Good afternoon, Mr. President. And Vice Chair of the Armed Select Board. And today's date is September 23rd. We're having a meeting, starting at 5.30. And I hope you all joined me for the pledge of allegiance.

[1:11] As you heard me say before, the fire exits has been dated by Massachusetts.

[1:17] If you go out this door to my left, take a right, you can hit Prospect Street.

[1:21] If you go through this door to my right through the door, through the room upstairs, take

[1:26] left in your own prospect street and I would encourage you not to use the elevator in case

[1:31] of a fire.

[1:34] So today's meeting is a public hearing for conversation on 16 to 36 West Main Street.

[1:49] Well, I'm sorry, West River, West, West River Street.

[1:52] I knew that, Kara.

[1:57] Yeah, also known as the brick pile.

[2:01] Also known as the old serial factory.

[2:08] There you go.

[2:09] So it's very historical, so site site, which is now open.

[2:15] And orange is the owner.

[2:17] And we're looking at what we want to do

[2:21] And the town has town citizens and residents have some import.

[2:26] And that's why you're here to tell us what you think.

[2:30] So what I'd like to do is we have the engineering forum

[2:34] firm, plus no-neal, could give us a presentation

[2:37] as to where you are in this.

[2:42] And then we have at least a letter from the LLC that owns it

[2:46] where they are and then we'll open it up to citizen comments and we'll have a time limit

[2:53] and everybody who wants to talk and talk and we'll see what anybody has to say.

[3:01] So Chris, Tim, come on down.

[3:09] Sit here.

[3:10] Yes sir.

[3:11] Okay.

[3:11] Let's see.

[3:13] Let's see.

[3:14] Let's see.

[3:26] We're going to pull up the survey that we completed.

[3:31] So that folks can see that on the screen and then we have these pictures.

[3:41] Okay,

[3:47] so the board's just looking for kind of an overview of what we've done, kind of the sequence of events that have brought us here today is that.

[3:57] Yeah, so I believe I don't have a formal presentation.

[3:59] that that's what I believe back in the summer you or your group made a

[4:06] presentation pretty much saying we're done with what we contracted to do and we

[4:11] go back and come up with some ideas of what we might do with that lot.

[4:17] Well yeah so initially the plan was to do a design process for parking

[4:26] specifically, and so that's what we were initially contracted to do after that meeting in May.

[4:33] In addition to that, to kind of make some additional progress as it relates to the environmental work,

[4:41] which is sort of something that needs to be done anyway, but is also informed by the land use,

[4:48] you know, the ultimate plan for the site.

[4:51] So in other words, the environmental cleanup and the DEP process would vary depending on whether

[4:59] we use this as a parking lot or as a park, which is considered a higher risk land use

[5:07] from an environmental standpoint.

[5:11] So we've been working on the environmental reports.

[5:15] We've completed the survey with some contractor of ours prepared that survey and we also did a wetland delineation to inform, at the time, a notice of intent or wetland permitting steps, all with the goal of building a parking lot there.

[5:38] And then, you know, I heard from Matt that there was some rethinking of the ultimate use objectives for that property.

[5:49] And so we prepared kind of a scope reallocation, if you will, to move away from the parking concept to more of a public park, kind of municipal use concept.

[6:05] And so, you know, that's something we share with the town, and now I'm here today to kind

[6:12] of talk about, okay, is it parking lot or is it park or is it both, and so that's kind

[6:17] of where we're at?

[6:18] Yeah.

[6:19] It's okay.

[6:20] And we also, we also, I think, as a committee wanted to make sure that we had public input

[6:24] that at the time that we didn't have, there was ideas, there were more people,

[6:33] there were

[6:33] I'm the scene stuff that we didn't chat with that day.

[6:39] So we wanted to give time for it.

[6:40] So this meeting is just about this, which is nice.

[6:43] Understood.

[6:45] And so, you know, I invited me up to be here to help

[6:47] however I can and help kind of that dialogue and the public

[6:51] and the board sort of make a decision and we'll do the best

[6:57] we can to leave the town with a good work product to kind of build

[7:01] off of and and move forward.

[7:03] Did Pusson or Neil come up with any other alternative possibilities that we should be considering?

[7:11] Um, I guess the only one, I wouldn't say we came up with it, but one thing I had talked with Matt about was the possibility that the town, you know,

[7:20] if the town were to try and sell the property, you know, what would that look like, how would that fit into possibly?

[7:30] You know, the cleanup plan, you know, if the town wanted to sell the property on the market to a private developer, you know, how should we handle the environmental piece to best position the property for, you know, resale if that were the decision.

[7:48] Got it. Got it. Excellent. Okay. The other party that has been involved is the LLC that owns what I know is Carroll supermarket building.

[8:01] the one on the corner. And we have a letter in my binder. I think we do have a

[8:08] representative here, 50, 50, 50, a self-mainstream. Lisa Malo is here.

[8:15] Oh, excellent. Would you come up and grab a chair? You can, you can sit next to

[8:23] sure you can kick him out whichever you prefer.

[8:26] You can take one.

[8:27] You want them to be crisp, but his name is Tim.

[8:29] Oh, Tim, I'm sorry.

[8:33] Hi.

[8:34] I'm Lisa and I'll go with four columns.

[8:36] No.

[8:36] Sorry.

[8:37] I'm representing the sellers.

[8:38] Excuse me.

[8:39] The owners of 50, 50, eight.

[8:41] South Main Street.

[8:44] Is that?

[8:45] Yes, South Main Street.

[8:47] Is that both buildings against the river and the one on the corner?

[8:51] That is correct.

[8:52] Great.

[8:53] Yeah.

[8:54] We refer to them as 50, 50, 50, eight.

[8:55] So their intention with those buildings, they are in the process of pulling a permit to do the brick repair that was requested.

[9:04] The contractors in the process now, I don't know if Jason actually has a copy of the permit, but that is being done.

[9:10] The next step is they're going to be doing the roof.

[9:14] And then they are now in process working with an engineer for developing 40 to 45 units inside those buildings for residential living.

[9:22] So what they would like on this parking on the parking on your drawing that's right in front of David is a portion of the parking lot

[9:32] So they can develop that parking lot for dedicated parking for the residents that are going to be living inside those buildings.

[9:40] Okay, they would take on the responsibility of the paving anything that that is needed to go with those buildings.

[9:48] But they do need that in order for, in order for it to be completed.

[9:57] I know that it gets into sticky wicket when the town is selling to a one individual.

[10:04] But that doesn't happen when it's a rental or long-term lease.

[10:08] Would you be looking at something that we draw a line down the lot and you'd say, I can

[10:15] develop this under a long-term lease?

[10:16] We would be open to anything the town suggests, as long as we have parking, she would like to own it, obviously, but if she cannot, I would like to give you, you know, give me some options, so I can, I can go to her, or go to, you know, the LLC that owns this and presents it to him.

[10:37] You're looking at about 45.

[10:38] 40 to 45 correct? 40 to 45 species. Yes. Okay.

[10:45] Yeah, we need TA on this.

[10:47] It's funny because I had this conversation with her today and I said,

[10:51] they're going to ask me that and you ask me that.

[10:53] I do not but I can go back at it. She's waiting for the engineer to develop.

[10:58] Obviously we all know that those buildings have some issues with structural issues

[11:04] and the whole plan was developed there in process they have it and their engineer has to make

[11:10] sure that the buildings are safe before they can develop them into units.

[11:15] So I don't know, but I can go back at her and ask her to estimate when they're going

[11:23] to be doing that.

[11:24] I think we would be interested in that also, Mr. Manager, any questions?

[11:31] Sir, questions, comments, and if you guys have any questions for me, let me know.

[11:36] A couple of points I'd bring up is that when we have not received building permanent application,

[11:43] from 50-58, and that of course isn't helpful because we are anticipating it,

[11:49] And it's being, it's part of the narrative, and yet we don't have that application.

[11:56] I did speak to her today, she said her contract, she's allegedly been working on it since Monday.

[12:02] So I can give her a call again either tonight or tomorrow.

[12:05] Find out the status on where that is.

[12:08] I think it would be helpful too for the town if we knew who they were.

[12:13] I Jason knows who they are because obviously he's involved. They are just not ready to come and speak because they don't want to be bombarded with

[12:24] Everybody's ideas. They have their own ideas for the buildings and they want to be able to bring that to fruition

[12:45] Additionally, the building department is requiring a large amount of engineering because of the building being in the shape that it is in now.

[12:54] We want to see it safe, made safe, and then we can continue to move forward.

[13:00] So my, I don't know why I say it right.

[13:03] My squeeze is public safety first with the building, so we've been back and forth.

[13:13] with that group to make it safe so they can commit to additional investment within that area.

[13:22] So some of them might be my fault because I want more and I want to see good engineering

[13:28] quality engineering again to keep that area in that well-traveled area safe for people around there.

[13:36] Right, that is the first thing people see when they come into orange.

[13:40] We want to make sure it's done properly.

[13:42] I have a letter from you when we're dying.

[13:46] I'm wondering if we should read that on the record so that's in there.

[13:54] And Julie, would you use the clerk?

[13:56] I'm Kelly, but.

[13:59] Or maybe I'm Tim, or Chris.

[14:04] Are you sure?

[14:06] I don't know.

[14:07] Which one are we?

[14:09] I'm going to read you one.

[14:12] You know, it must be in here.

[14:13] It's just, oh, got it.

[14:16] Oh, wait.

[14:17] It looks like this.

[14:20] Oh, okay, I'll just read that.

[14:22] All righty.

[14:23] So September 9, 2000,

[14:28] 1226, town of Orange, Board of Selectman,

[14:31] regarding the proposed parking arrangement

[14:33] for the 50, 50, it's South Main Street,

[14:36] workforce housing redevelopment project.

[14:38] Dear members of the Board of Selectman, on behalf of the owners of 50 South Main Street,

[14:44] identified as parcels 228 and 58 South Main Street,

[14:48] identified as parcels 229.

[14:51] I respectfully submit this proposal concerning parking for the planning workforce housing redevelopment

[14:58] of these properties.

[14:59] The owner.

[15:00] Acquired both properties in July, 2025, with the intention of developing workforce housing in downtown Orange.

[15:08] During the acquisition process, the Board of Selectman provided the owners with a letter expressing the towns willingness to explore the feasibility of reserving up to 48 parking spaces for the exclusive use of residents of the proposed 50 to 58 South Main Street redevelopment project.

[15:26] The town's letter also confirmed that the town retains full discretion over the future use and development of the municipal property located at 16-36 West River Street identified as parcel to 27.

[15:41] The purpose of this letter is to present a possible method for creating the proposed residential parking spaces, while also preserving a substantial portion of parcel to 27 for public parking.

[15:52] According to the conceptual parking lot design, included in appendix e-parcel 227 could potentially accommodate approximately 156 parking spaces allocated as follows.

[16:05] Ro A, 44 spaces, ro B, 38 spaces, row C, 38 spaces, row D, 36 spaces.

[16:14] To implement the proposed residential parking arrangement, the owner respectfully request that the town consider the following.

[16:20] Number one, the town would divide parcel 227 into two parcels referred to in this proposal as partial 227-1 and parcel 227-2.

[16:34] The proposed division line would be located approximately 141 feet from the right side property line.

[16:42] subject to a final survey, engineering review, permitting, and all required governmental approvals.

[16:50] Number two, the town would convey deed, lease, and other assigned parcel to 27-2 to the owner,

[16:59] under terms mutually acceptable to both parties and subject to all applicable legal requirements and approvals.

[17:04] At the owner's sole expense, the owner would construct approximately 48 parking spaces in parcel

[17:12] 227-2 for the exclusive use of residents of the 50-58 South Main Street redevelopment project.

[17:22] Number four, the preliminary design currently identifies 15 spaces in row A, 11 spaces in

[17:29] be 11 spaces in row C and 10 spaces in row D for a total of 47 spaces. The final design

[17:36] would be adjusted if feasible and approved to provide the requested total of 48 spaces.

[17:42] Number five, the town could develop the remaining portion of the property parcels

[17:47] 227-1 with approximately a 108 parking public parking spaces at the town's expense in according

[17:55] to the town's preferred schedule, funding and development plan.

[17:59] If the town ultimately intends to develop parcel to 27, as a 156 space public parking facility,

[18:07] this arrangement could reduce the town's construction responsibility and related expensive.

[18:11] The owner would fund and construct the portion serving the workforce housing project, while

[18:16] the town would remain responsible for developing approximately a 108 public parking spaces.

[18:22] The owner respectfully request that the board review this proposal and authorize the appropriate

[18:27] town officials to begin discussions regarding the proposed division and disposition, or

[18:34] long-term lease of a portion of parcel to 27.

[18:38] Timely consideration of this matter is important so that the owner may determine whether

[18:42] the workforce housing development can move forward.

[18:46] This proposal is intended as a framework for discussion and does not create a binding obligation

[18:52] on either party.

[18:54] Any subdivision, conveyance, lease, parking allocation, construction obligation or other

[19:00] commitment would be subject to final plans, applicable, municipal and state requirements, necessary

[19:06] governmental approval, and the execution of mutual acceptable written agreements.

[19:12] Thank you for your consideration in this proposal and for the town's willingness to explore parking

[19:18] solutions that could support workforce housing and continue downtown development in orange.

[19:24] We welcome the opportunity to meet with a board and appropriate town officials to discuss

[19:29] the proposal and greater detail.

[19:31] Respectfully submitted, we submit.

[19:34] Representative.

[19:37] Thank you.

[19:38] Thank you.

[19:41] Has everybody seen the drawings that are up on the table?

[19:46] I would thought you have.

[19:51] Can we make a move?

[19:52] Yeah.

[19:53] Mr. Chair.

[19:54] What's the title of that?

[19:57] The parking.

[19:58] I'll help you with that.

[19:59] The special parking trail.

[20:01] Splash.

[20:02] Practicing.

[20:08] And on the procurement side of things

[20:10] for the town, there are a few options.

[20:13] One of them would be to see if the town will vote

[20:16] file special legislation to exempt the town from procurement law, for the sale of the law,

[20:24] which we've done in the past when we wanted to sell a parcel of land to a particular party.

[20:30] The other idea you could do is a targeted RFP that was favorable for, say, workforce development

[20:36] parking. So, they'd be a strong proposer if we'd designed an RFP for that type of use.

[20:45] And I think what would be challenging is the fact that from the road to the end of the

[20:55] lot, it's a downward slope and it's about an eight to ten foot change. And so you have to

[21:03] really build up a larger taning wall toward the river and then bring in a substantial amount of fill

[21:11] to be able to bring this up to grade with the roadway and you would end up spending a lot of money

[21:19] and if you split the law and we can look at this conceptual artificial intelligence lay over on the

[21:26] survey map but if you see toward the right hand side of the image there's a dotted line that would

[21:32] a theoretical subdivision line. You'd end up still having to put in a retaining wall that

[21:38] would cross over the line so there would be some type of public private partnership that would

[21:43] have to occur to actually bring this thing up to great fully and that's going to be the majority

[21:48] of your cost would be bringing in the wall, building the wall to meet civil engineering standards

[21:54] and then bringing in the fill. So I know that right now with the amount of money that the town

[21:59] left in the earmark. It's only a couple hundred grand and it's really not anywhere near enough money that

[22:05] we would need to actually bring this thing up to grade with the road to be able to build a

[22:11] structural parking lot. That said, potential if the 5058 owner had funds to kick in,

[22:20] that could go a long way towards getting this project done. So what you have on the screen here,

[22:27] is a hybrid concept that

[22:30] That is a combination between a couple ideas. It provides some parking that could be dedicated for workforce housing at 558 South Main Street, the former Carol's Corner.

[22:44] It also provides municipal parking and riverfront area parking to give viewership to the riverfront, and it also incorporated a small splash park design,

[22:56] Which would be to attract young families to the town of Orange and offer a new amenity to the taxpayers and this was generated with co-pilot

[23:07] So I wouldn't stand behind it as far as

[23:11] Engineering and scalability in scale, but

[23:14] Certainly it gives us all something to look at that brings color to what is otherwise in our mind. So

[23:21] This is the hybrid approach that I think might check the boxes for all the concern parties that have interest in this one acre lot.

[23:37] So what we're looking to do tonight is to get input from the public on what your ideas are.

[23:45] bring story. And to that end and to move along that proposed, let's say a six minutes,

[23:56] anybody can get up, say their peace. And you get one chance and we're not going to

[24:02] get a converse with you, you're just going to tell us what you think and roll right

[24:06] it down and then we'll take it back and chew on it.

[24:10] Um, welcome back down the road. Okay. I will free the sea. Thank you. So is there anybody who

[24:19] wants to comment on your thoughts on the brick pile?

[24:25] Could be a quick meeting.

[24:32] I have

[24:32] a few zoom comments and then I have a few from the public feedback survey. I will start

[24:38] with the zoom comments. Um, first one and read. I favor allowing for the purchaser of

[24:45] property and or the town to develop the grounds for needed single-level parking.

[24:52] I do not believe that to instead reserve the land for public leisure space would provide

[24:58] worthwhile, sorry, would prove worthwhile by comparison.

[25:02] Thank you, Anne Reed.

[25:07] Yes, it's in these enders you are next, Denise Enders is requesting an explanation of all

[25:14] designs on the table, and I'm just going to add you Denise to as a speaking participant.

[25:22] Thank you.

[25:25] I could even thank you for the public hearing to get that you explained it.

[25:31] So I've been working on this since 2010, this is the fourth ownership group.

[25:38] A lot of people have come to the table saying what they're going to do.

[25:41] This current ownership group sounds like they're starting now a year in after several attempts

[25:48] by the town to get transparency in the partnership. So I'm happy about that. However, I don't

[25:55] literally trust the deal until there's real money on the table. So if we're interested in

[26:01] having a hybrid design, I think is very important to get money up front in a long-term lease agreement

[26:07] for 47 spaces, period, and that lets them know they can develop it, but they're going to put money on the table, partial pay on lease.

[26:17] So we're not sitting waiting for them to not develop it, okay, and this is a fourth ownership group.

[26:22] So we've got to learn from the past that we need to have real skin in the game, money, good partnership, transparency.

[26:29] Because we all would love to see market rate housing in those two historical buildings with spaces needed for them to do that.

[26:37] Having a beautiful green space next to it not only helps economic development for them, but for this town people see

[26:44] We care they see beautiful green space on the river and they want to come and build houses and grow their businesses

[26:49] So it is economic development, even though it's green space

[26:52] Originally we talked if we're gonna put spaces in to do a two story

[26:58] parking space

[27:01] Garage, okay

[27:02] And that can be done.

[27:04] I was told, even though we brought fill in, in that two story would be about it to West River,

[27:09] not about it to the river.

[27:10] So you got to dig down, build two, get the spaces.

[27:14] I think it is totally not appropriate to put 100 in some spaces on prime riverfront property

[27:20] and have just a huge parking lot there.

[27:25] There's a way to make it work a hybrid, but not flat, one level parking of 104 spaces, no way.

[27:32] Okay. One, get what we need for those two buildings to be developed, money on the table up front and

[27:38] at least agreement, and then spend the rest of the money.

[27:41] The last time we talked about this, Sluck board meeting was 300 grand was in the bank, still.

[27:47] We had to check economic development, yes, this, he checks that box, and we had to check

[27:52] environmental, and it was said, let's not spend any more money on Fuss and O'Neill.

[27:57] So, I'm not sure why the bank counts now down to 200.

[27:59] whatever it is, we need a good design and we need it. We need a button

[28:04] button that means we've got to spend some money or ask for an extension which

[28:09] may not be possible for the town to do its part and then ask those a core LLC

[28:17] enough of hiding behind who they are and we can't figure it out. That's not a

[28:23] way to build a relationship and we can get the spaces for them, preserve those

[28:28] buildings if we work in partnership, we all would love that. But we need real money on the table,

[28:33] fourth owner, 16 years, and they're falling down. And the owners didn't come to the table until

[28:39] we put safety requirements on them. Through Jason, thank you, Jason, for doing what you're doing on

[28:45] safety and good engineering and requiring it to be done right. We haven't done that in the past,

[28:50] so thank you, Jason. And we should not have had to go that way and initiate a bit of hardball

[28:57] to say you start fixing these buildings because stuff's flying off those roofs and out of the

[29:03] windows. So hopefully we can take tonight, get to the table with the owners, co-create, green

[29:13] space, they're parking space needs, a splash park, keep it up as green space as much as we can

[29:21] close to the river. Not the other way around and not a whole lot of hundreds

[29:27] of some spaces. And I'm happy to help. I've been doing that and I'll continue to. Thank you.

[29:33] Thank you. Thank you, Denise.

[29:36] Thank you.

[29:40] Any other participants on Zoom or Zoom QA?

[29:54] All right. Nobody else?

[29:55] Um, but okay, okay, then I'll move.

[30:00] Go on to the survey.

[30:06] Good evening, Paulie Bixby. When a two-hole she wrote, first of all, I'd like to thank Denise for her time spent putting some thought into this.

[30:18] And I agree with her that I'm not sure what we can do until we get a commitment from the people on the building.

[30:29] Because as she said, we have had promises on this kind of stuff for a long time.

[30:33] I remember talking to other owners, you know, in these past years with a promised everything and then never came through with it.

[30:41] So what we do depends, it depends a lot upon what these owners do,

[30:47] whether they're going to actually follow through this project or not.

[30:51] In the meantime, my own thought is, and it's just my own thought,

[30:56] that we keep the grass area just as it is and whatever we spend if we have to spend

[31:05] this $200,000 so that we don't lose it then what can we do so that that won't be interfered

[31:14] with when this housing project is built and we do the parking lot so maybe we don't do

[31:21] parking lot because I don't I can't I personally don't see a parking lot there if we don't

[31:27] have residents in that building we don't yet have residents in Butterfield the old Butterfield

[31:34] school and that's kind of like a far away for people who are living near to actually park.

[31:41] So what you would do with that 200,000 I'm not really sure but some thoughts could be

[31:48] that way you've got the green area and the splash pond I believe I believe it's still

[31:55] the it is a railroad part of a railroad track and it was a place you go under the track

[32:02] I'm not sure what you call that under what underpass that's right underpass underneath

[32:10] that railroad track and I know years ago in a plan it was a thought about making a trail going

[32:15] to knees there, because that's still, I believe, part of that property, so that could be

[32:19] cleaned up a bit, past go through there, and maybe even just somehow, so that it wouldn't

[32:27] be interfered with, but somehow some green, real long, maybe a path along the river.

[32:32] You see, I'm seeing a lot of several kids and some adults fishing off the bridge,

[32:43] the

[32:43] types of things until we can get our act together with that. The people are developing, so that's it.

[32:51] Comments, sorry to drop that the audio on the mic is not good. Do we want to move this?

[32:59] Okay,

[33:05] so those listening, I'm sorry if I broke the mic. I'm not sure. I'm just about

[33:09] through talking now anyway, but if anybody, I guess those are my only thoughts.

[33:14] I know at one point there was supposed to be a whole green way going down through that

[33:20] underpass I'm talking about and along the river all the way down along the river and

[33:26] there was a lot of work to try to get across the river and the railroad tracks to get

[33:31] into OIC however I think the stopper was pan-am so we couldn't go through with it so

[33:39] You know, that's something that was been there in the past.

[33:42] I guess that's it.

[33:45] Okay.

[33:48] App for those who didn't hear it.

[33:50] You're saying that put the money and to put the money that we have into the green trails.

[33:56] I think, rather than just wasting it.

[33:58] I don't think we need to don't study.

[34:00] Yeah, and don't do it.

[34:00] And don't do the parking lot.

[34:02] Until we have a commitment.

[34:05] But we could take care of the green part.

[34:07] That's what that's going to mean.

[34:08] I need to just leave the space kind of as is now there.

[34:11] The town is the guys are mowing it, it's looking good right now.

[34:15] Just leave it there until we get a commitment from the developer and then, you know, we move forward and hopefully we get some money from them also to help with the parking lot and I'm not sure where else you get it.

[34:27] or whatever we get it. We could always go up a center of talent and juggle as something and get some money, but

[34:35] anyway, yeah, that's my proposal.

[34:39] Thank you.

[34:42] I would like to find out if this was cut down in size and so let's just say the

[34:51] that A parking lots were not there, and that was going to be in space.

[34:58] What impact would that have on the potential pollution of the site?

[35:10] Tim, can you come up to that?

[35:13] In

[35:25] terms of the site cleanup, I think, regardless of whether it's a parking lot or a park, it

[35:33] will differ, but a big part of that is going to be the fact that it's raised up and so you're

[35:39] getting some separation between what the pollution is underneath the old building slab essentially.

[35:50] You're talking about pollution that's 10-15 feet down from what would be the final grade.

[35:57] So we'd really want to leverage that fact that there is that separation and the likelihood of

[36:03] people contacting that pollution is extremely small at that point, but that doesn't necessarily

[36:09] mean that you could leave it all there under a parks scenario just because it's, you know,

[36:14] you're attracting children and that has a higher standard of clean up. So it's likely that,

[36:22] you know, at the park portion of the site, wherever that falls and whatever the extent of it is,

[36:26] There would probably be some targeted cleanup that would be needed to kind of bring down the overall risk.

[36:35] You know, Massachusetts is a risk-based program and there's math.

[36:39] The calculations and risk assessment that goes behind that.

[36:43] But I do want to make clear that some targeted soil removal under a park concept would likely be needed.

[36:52] As opposed to the more you dedicate the site to a parking lot where it's not a recreational use,

[37:02] you know, the amount of solar removal may go down.

[37:08] But we, you know, I do want to say we haven't gone through the whole risk assessment process yet,

[37:12] so we would have to look at that, but to kind of sum it up,

[37:17] more parking lot likely less cleanup more park more cleanup would probably be likely

[37:26] but you know I think regardless of what you do it could be pretty

[37:30] Pretty targeted and pretty limited and kind of levers the fact that you have so much filled between, you know, where people are using it and what the pollution would be.

[37:40] What are your thoughts on if we did a multi-level parking garage in that site? What would be your thoughts on that idea?

[37:48] as it relates to the contamination or just contamination and set use?

[38:00] I mean, I guess I'm not a parking expert, but I guess my first question is would there be demand to support two levels of parking?

[38:08] And I don't know the answer to that, so that would be sort of the first question, what's

[38:19] the need for that amount of parking?

[38:21] I mean, Denise had talked about, I think, was accessing the top of the parking, perhaps

[38:28] from the road, I'm not quite sure, and then around back accessing a lower level from the back.

[38:35] can we go down because of the contaminant in the soil is there a way to go deeper and make it a

[38:45] street level at the top level and then a lower level. Yeah, you certainly could. Yeah, I mean there's

[38:53] nothing to say and you can't do that and you know at that point you're likely going to have to do some

[38:58] or mobile, but because you're not getting the same kind of separation,

[39:06] but you're also

[39:07] paving it.

[39:08] So all those things are considered as part of the sort of risk assessment and clean up and

[39:12] like, what do we have to remove to bring this down and meet state standards?

[39:19] But I guess what I'm not clear on is, you know, if you're going to, I would think if you're

[39:25] a build of a two-level parking deck, you're dedicating most of that site for that purpose,

[39:31] or would it be?

[39:34] I want to think if you did about the same amount of parking, but you did it in two levels,

[39:38] you're using more vertical space than horizontal space.

[39:43] So then you have more room for green space if we want a hybrid sort of area.

[39:50] So...

[39:50] That's even throw solar on top.

[39:55] Okay, so the footprint of the theoretical parking deck would kind of match the parking that you're seeing here.

[40:03] Is that the idea?

[40:04] Yeah, just for conversation.

[40:07] Let's say it was half of that, half of that in size, but it went up another level.

[40:12] So, in thinking what Denise Andrews was saying,

[40:15] If we could take half of that vertical space and put it on top of the other space, you now access from behind and you go into a lower level, and then you have an upper level that's street accessible, we would have parking for the owners that they wanted, and we could perhaps have that green space that

[40:45] Um, others wanted. Is that something that's doable to you think?

[40:53] Um, there.

[40:54] Well, I guess the question is, you know, are you getting your bang for your bucket at that point?

[40:59] Because it sounds expensive.

[41:02] To start to go vertical.

[41:04] Yeah.

[41:06] So, I think that would be the first question that would have to be answered.

[41:13] From a environmental standpoint, yeah, it's certainly doable.

[41:19] But from an overall construction and return on investment, I guess that's what would

[41:24] give me pause about that plan.

[41:28] Thanks, Tim.

[41:29] You're welcome.

[41:30] Car?

[41:34] Microsoft Survey Responses, when we close to the ad for this, we included the Microsoft Survey

[41:41] It's a QR code and then on the website as well.

[41:45] Oh, microphone.

[41:47] Oh, sorry.

[41:49] I felt like I was missing something.

[41:53] So we have free survey responses

[41:55] from a Microsoft Forms from a QR code that was posted

[42:00] in a newspaper with the hearing ad

[42:02] and also posted on our website,

[42:06] via link and the first ones,

[42:09] admitted anonymously, develop a shared municipal parking and riverfront

[42:15] comments that supports downtown housing and commercial growth while

[42:20] creating public access, open space, and unobstructed views of the

[42:26] Miller's River and Dam. The project should balance economic

[42:30] development needs with environmental stewardship and provide

[42:33] a welcoming waterfront destination for residents and visitors

[42:37] a like. The second is from Vicki, South Main Street Orange. First is the building really

[42:48] sold with a future plan of development.

[42:53] Do we want to address that or just read the comment

[42:56] first?

[42:57] But let's trust them, just so.

[42:59] Well, I believe that you've already said that it is that you're

[43:05] planning on moving forward with us, right?

[43:07] Right.

[43:08] So I think that's the answer to a question.

[43:10] Is it really kind of happened?

[43:12] Well, there are people that want to make it happen that are here tonight.

[43:16] So I agree with a couple of comments about money

[43:21] up front and the skin and the game and all that, but it's only

[43:24] because aren't just been burned a few times here.

[43:29] A second comment, same person.

[43:32] Second, this is a beautiful waterfront location.

[43:35] Another parking lot would ruin the beauty of it.

[43:38] But because of the dam, water access activities

[43:40] would not work.

[43:42] Not sure if it could be set up as a park for all ages to enjoy,

[43:46] access for limited parking of food trucks vendor area

[43:49] to have more weekend set up a vendor selling their wares.

[43:53] A place for all to enjoy, sit to eat, and relish the view.

[43:58] A place with some playground equipment for the kids.

[44:01] A location for vendor tents.

[44:03] It would take an initiative for somebody to look up grants to see what is available to use for the financing.

[44:13] And then I have another comment,

[44:16] anonymously submitted.

[44:20] Um, calorie crop, food forest demonstration site,

[44:24] moan, blowgrass, closer to trunks of trees in late spring,

[44:30] plus moan, wide paths for tick free foot traffic.

[44:35] Second priority.

[44:37] Third place hang out spot, open 8 a.m. to midnight daily.

[44:42] with signage from Main Street and Path well-lit at night and I will add for people who aren't familiar with what a third place means

[44:50] I believe that means like a place that's like not home or work or school but to just go hang

[44:56] Third priority mixed use housing and storefront

[45:00] Fourth, add a bit of handicap access parking, previous, sorry, pervious surface, or covered with pitched roof photovoltaic for winter.

[45:12] Fifth, a few paid parking places, previous surface, sorry, pervious surface, and then there is no such thing as free parking.

[45:23] If we make this whole thing into parking, we are shooting ourselves in the foot again. Thank you.

[45:28] What was the first sentence in that response that we're talking about?

[45:34] Is there some kind of crop?

[45:36] Calorie crop.

[45:37] I don't understand what that is.

[45:40] Do you know?

[45:42] I would assume it's a crop that has calories, maybe like corn or something.

[45:48] Maybe somebody else knows that's savvy.

[45:51] I open it to the audience.

[45:54] What a calorie crop is.

[45:56] I think you're right.

[45:57] Yeah.

[45:58] We'll put that into the possibilities as growing corn on the others.

[46:04] Any other?

[46:07] Google says it's just a crop with ranked high in calories per square foot, so like sweep

[46:14] potatoes and stuff.

[46:17] I don't see any.

[46:18] Let me take a look at the Q&A.

[46:24] Okay,

[46:27] we have a comment from Denise Andrews asking about the decision timeline and process.

[46:37] I think George

[46:45] will have

[46:55] a question on when that was cleaned up.

[47:03] They didn't clean down to what was the base of the building to begin with.

[47:08] the cleaner I thought they cleaned it down and took the contaminants out.

[47:13] I got it to put a machine on that.

[47:17] Yes, we have.

[47:18] Tim, no, I'm so excited.

[47:20] Yeah.

[47:20] I'll move on with him.

[47:21] Thank you.

[47:23] Thank you.

[47:31] The clean up done two years ago was just of the brick pile.

[47:36] So the asbestos debris.

[47:38] And so part of what we've done since then is a more in-depth environmental

[47:42] investigation that went into the ground. So below, like where the building slab was. So all that

[47:49] brick was sitting on top of the building slab. Right. That's what Scott removed. Once that was removed

[47:53] then we did the more in-depth investigation and found it. We understand that the only asbestos

[47:59] contamination was in the glazing of the window, which was minimal. Right. Well, they blew it all out of

[48:13] is where of the windows was the potential

[48:18] asbestos problem.

[48:20] Well, if you stopped and think about that,

[48:22] compared to that building, that's not much contamination.

[48:26] Right.

[48:27] Maybe so.

[48:28] I don't know the answer.

[48:30] Well, I've lived here for ages.

[48:31] Right.

[48:32] You could be right.

[48:34] I didn't see any full survey of what the asbestos

[48:38] wasn't that building before it burned down,

[48:40] but once it was down,

[48:42] There's really no way to know or at least be able to segregate it in a way that is efficient.

[48:50] The way it was spoken at the time was that the only past-best contamination was what was in the glazing of the windows.

[48:57] Yeah, I can't even get any more when it burned.

[49:00] I can't say that the work that was done immediately after the fire, the D.P. led, there was

[49:08] record that there was pieces of a specialist that had sort of become airborne and landed

[49:14] in other parts of town and other properties.

[49:18] So that is part of the record, I can't verify that.

[49:22] I didn't see some of the floating around that day.

[49:25] Right.

[49:27] I believe that when we met in May, there was a statement that there is contamination on

[49:38] the site.

[49:39] It's deep underground and it would preclude us from using it for residential or daycare

[49:46] center or some things that would be very sensitive, but it's so deep and so expensive

[49:50] to get it out. Yeah. We can do things on top without any risk. Well, the comment would be

[49:58] that historically, if somebody was talking about access with the threshold going across

[50:03] it, go to Javanese. Historically, the railroad has been very reluctant to let anybody on the

[50:10] property.

[50:14] Yeah, I don't know whether the railroad even knows it.

[50:18] But then you got to maintain it

[50:20] forever. So that's the downside. Because I, as a kid, I remember the, the paper mill

[50:29] using is a storage, and I remember switches pushing cars into that building.

[50:36] Thank you.

[50:40] Paulie?

[50:42] I think I'll stand.

[50:47] You can pull it.

[50:49] I just have a chair.

[50:50] I just have a chair.

[50:51] Yeah.

[50:51] Yeah, probably big speed again. I just have a question like looking at the map

[50:56] We've got the splash pond

[50:59] There that green area. Is that beyond the contamination point?

[51:04] Because I think if you go there and look the people whose property is as I'm looking at this map

[51:10] The property to the left. They have a fence and then there's a lot of you know a lot of

[51:15] The debris and stuff that's growing up there is a big huge tree that fell across that area

[51:22] But is that the area we're talking about right there?

[51:26] So and if that's off the contamination thing then then the way this is drawn that being a park

[51:33] You don't have to go and check for all the contamination

[51:38] Right, I will say so the contamination that we found or that I guess the biggest issue in terms of

[51:45] Risk is arsenic, so an arsenic's very common in urban fill this whole area was fill

[51:53] You know dating back to it's a original development, so

[51:59] It's sporadic I guess is what I'm saying in this we go walk on the property right right right, right?

[52:05] Right, so you know if you're gonna do like a walking path and and you know things of that nature then you know

[52:12] It's that kind of sort of targeted clean up that I'm talking about where you're focusing the money and the effort to do it on, you know, the highest risk areas.

[52:23] And that part of the site is sort of, you know, we didn't fill as much there because it was already close.

[52:30] I don't think there's any fillings of the grade, like in my fill, I mean the recent work, when we brought in all the back fill out to the brick pile was gone. So, but I guess what I'm getting at is the contaminations kind of sporadic site wide, because it's an, okay, I guess what I'm, what I'm kind of getting at is kind of like what I said before is that if you have to spend the money, and we don't like to throw away money, then that's a lot of money.

[53:01] area if there's no can if there's the building wasn't there I don't think I think there's

[53:07] enough room between where the building was and where it fell down and where the end of

[53:11] that property is and that trestle is in that area but you know it got to have boots on the ground

[53:18] you got to go look at it so this is like what how can we tell by looking at this what happened

[53:22] to that part of the property was that was where their coal stores was because that's where all the

[53:28] You know that that's where everything came in on that train trussle so that even though there wasn't a building there that was still

[53:35] A part of the site where the land use was kind of

[53:37] What we will consider now a polluting land use where you're piled up coal and

[53:42] Ash and things like that, so maybe maybe I don't remember unlike George

[53:46] Old time or so, okay

[53:58] Okay, we have a handraise. This is Denise Andrews.

[54:05] Hi

[54:05] Thank you for having the public hearing, some really great ideas on solar and pop-up food

[54:12] tracks and community space to hang.

[54:16] There's not enough data for me, and as an engineer in particular, say nothing about financial

[54:22] conservative.

[54:25] We're talking a lot about arsenic and lead on science rules.

[54:32] We do ground samples.

[54:33] We've done some, we've spent a lot of money already on Brownfield cleanup money, taxpayer money on this site.

[54:41] So I would encourage all of us to get the data and come from the science on that.

[54:47] When we had the pocket park, we had lead over there and one of the creative concepts was to plant sunflowers, which decontaminates the site.

[54:57] So there are wonderful ways to do this at a lot less cost than expensive consulting and not going to the source called sampling.

[55:07] So that's one point.

[55:09] And the second is in Rome D and C.

[55:16] Kelly's right.

[55:17] I mean if we cut in half, 50 on the lower level, 50 on street level, two story,

[55:23] get the construction cost and I hear that the owners are willing to pay.

[55:26] So let them pay for half, okay, let the town, right, or get a lease, so that it pays out in 10 years.

[55:33] So there's a lot of great ideas here tonight, and I think at the end of the day, we have to move fairly efficiently, high quality, low time,

[55:42] get a decision so that we can have a concept that makes sense for economic development and quality of life.

[55:49] And again, thanks for the public hearing.

[55:51] Thank you, did you want else?

[55:57] Cora?

[56:03] Nope.

[56:14] I think Reinic West Main Street.

[56:18] So for those talking about the two layers, two levels.

[56:21] Are you talking about the AB section having parking over the lower level of AB as well?

[56:30] So that you're actually talking about a double decker over the AB section and the CD section is kind of the entry level?

[56:37] ground level, like can we two to level, not sure they've decided where to do that.

[56:44] My concern about doing something like that is the green space on the north side of the

[56:49] green walk, the idea, you'd be shading it, so it'd be hard to get things to grow there

[56:54] because the construction would create a shade on that, because the south is the side of the

[57:00] world that you can't get, that's the bottom, and that's the north up there. And growing things

[57:04] on the north side is really, really tough.

[57:06] I have spots in my yard where I just can't get things to grow,

[57:09] because it's the north end of the month.

[57:15] The contaminants that we're talking about

[57:17] are not the asbestos and such from the building,

[57:20] we're talking about the contaminants

[57:22] of a long-term manufacturing use that get deep into the soil

[57:25] in various ways that those of us who don't do manufacturing

[57:29] really know nothing about,

[57:30] but that's the kind of contaminant you're talking about,

[57:33] not built construction contaminants.

[57:36] That's right.

[57:37] And also urban fill contaminants.

[57:39] So it's very common in urbanized areas

[57:42] to have contaminated fill.

[57:46] You know, way back before environmental regulation,

[57:49] they would use anything to build up grades

[57:53] for development on sites.

[57:55] And the biggest issue is ash and coal.

[57:59] And ash by product that got put in the ground.

[58:02] and used to build up sites, so it's all over New England, and so that's part of the issue here.

[58:10] The other issue is that building burned down and created its own ash and concentrated chemicals

[58:17] just from wood and pre-ISO oil, and so that got into the ground as a result of the fire.

[58:26] So it's hard to decipher what's what in that scenario, whether it was Urban Phil or from the fire or spilled during the industrial history.

[58:37] And we have seen some of that.

[58:39] There's some solvents in the ground to not super high levels, but they are there. So it's a combination of things.

[58:48] I'm thinking at the moment, the state has a high desire for more housing and a high desire for more economic development,

[58:55] especially in this part of the state to have us get both of those.

[59:00] So it would seem to me that the parking, that's,

[59:04] that housing is not going to be possible in those buildings.

[59:07] It was, there's parking space.

[59:10] I mean, nobody is really going to invest in any of those buildings

[59:13] if there isn't also the ability to park that parking.

[59:17] So it seems to me a priority for us if we want those buildings

[59:19] development should be some way of working out that parking.

[59:23] at least that portion of the lot that's needed for them to have parking, and whether it's a sale,

[59:30] a lease, or whatever,

[59:34] that to me, the development of those buildings, should be one of our priorities.

[59:39] And that makes that parking a priority. And what we do with the rest of the lot, whether it's more

[59:43] parking, more park, to me as I looked over that area, I'm not very spatially, not never a good

[59:51] imagining things. So it did not look big enough to hold all of this. So I'm going to

[59:56] to trust the design calculation that that's...

[1:00:00] That actually all fit in there. The, obviously, the design would have to change from that because the public

[1:00:07] section would need accessible parking spaces as well as the private section. So, obviously, it won't be the full number of

[1:00:13] spaces that's shown there, because they'll have to be sum over near the picnic area. But to me, this kind

[1:00:22] of conceptual exactly how far over the line gets drawn is to how much is park and how much is parking,

[1:00:27] And whether some of the parking gets left non-parking so that you can put in food trucks or whatever,

[1:00:34] which might require a electrical connection or something, whether to put in for electrical cars,

[1:00:42] all that kind of stuff comes later.

[1:00:44] The moment plan is a decision of whether to go ahead with planning that some of this gets used

[1:00:50] for parking for the neighbor and what we need to do next steps for whatever we're going to do.

[1:00:55] What it sounds like, that one of the things that we need to do is the testing of just how deep the contaminants are can we actually put a park over a part of this or would that be extremely expensive because of how much would have to be done.

[1:01:11] And then the next plans is getting to design and putting in for the grants to try to get assistance with the town's portion of this construction because of it being good for attracting both housing and economic development into the downtown.

[1:01:31] Thank you.

[1:01:32] Thank you.

[1:01:36] Thank you.

[1:01:37] Excuse me.

[1:01:47] Excuse me.

[1:01:49] And we can't hear you.

[1:01:55] Did you read to raise your hand?

[1:01:58] Can you type in the chat?

[1:02:05] I respond to that.

[1:02:09] So, I mean, I didn't really think about if we take the C&D and put it over A and B,

[1:02:17] we could do that, perhaps.

[1:02:19] Whatever would fit best in the space,

[1:02:21] or my thought when I first was thinking,

[1:02:23] it was just taking sort of right down the middle

[1:02:27] and push it double height towards the housing and then you'd leave the left over

[1:02:35] green space. But when you were saying these I was loving the thought of that space

[1:02:41] for food trucks without parking places there would be great and perhaps if we could

[1:02:49] get grant money to do you know some charging stations we could do maybe perhaps

[1:02:54] solar that could get some money revenue for the town. These are real great brainstorming ideas

[1:03:01] to that we needed on the site. That's what we wanted. Yeah, and the other part well we're

[1:03:08] right too is I mean is there a way since Kathy you're here too that we could have the owners put

[1:03:17] money into an escrow account of some sort where we hold the money so that we know that they've

[1:03:23] If they're investing money towards it, like we know that they mean business, is there

[1:03:29] some way that a town can do that?

[1:03:38] I'm not sure of that.

[1:03:39] The best person to answer this, but back when I was on the planning board years and years

[1:03:43] ago, planning boards could require escrowing of various kind of things.

[1:03:47] For instance, all of our solar farms, as far as I know, have escrowed money for decommissioning.

[1:03:54] So that would be part of the planning board process, I think.

[1:03:57] If there was something like that going on, I don't know if there's any other process open

[1:04:03] to the town.

[1:04:05] I would guess that if we're creating a public private partnership, the part of that partnership

[1:04:09] agreement could be money's put into escrow early on in the partnership so that we have

[1:04:15] it available as the partnership continues.

[1:04:18] The town could accept money from developers for our specific purpose, such as developing

[1:04:25] parking, it's certainly something we've done in recent years.

[1:04:32] Can you give up on the end read?

[1:04:35] She's a two type that was an accident.

[1:04:37] Oh, okay.

[1:04:39] Any other comments last going once?

[1:04:44] Going twice?

[1:04:45] Yes.

[1:04:47] Didn't bring you down.

[1:04:48] So you're a little safer.

[1:04:49] All right,

[1:04:56] Mary Wolf 40 East Merkel,

[1:05:01] my only thought is that if we left this as a full parking

[1:05:07] lot like this, it's much more scalable, maybe we could have little carnivals,

[1:05:16] the green

[1:05:19] market, the local farmers market, could go there.

[1:05:23] It's a lot closer to the middle of town.

[1:05:27] It kind of is out and left field right now.

[1:05:33] And then if you wanted to build later,

[1:05:37] double parking lot, you can do it.

[1:05:41] But for now, I think, you know, we have very little money.

[1:05:45] It would be nice to, you know, put that macatum on there and then we could use it as a center of count.

[1:05:56] And we used to have a third Thursdays, that's all gone.

[1:06:00] So this is an important piece of count and I would just suggest leaving it the way this is actually pretty good for, as I can say, for our budget.

[1:06:14] I mean, if it was my property, that's what I would do and build on it.

[1:06:22] Thank you.

[1:06:25] Mr. Manager, do you have anything?

[1:06:30] Do you have the snow as landscaping design that we should put on the screen before we wrap up?

[1:06:51] I don't know.

[1:06:52] I don't know.

[1:06:53] I don't know.

[1:06:54] I don't know.

[1:06:58] area and go down deep enough so you would know how father contaminants came from when the new home

[1:07:05] was there and you wouldn't have to excrete the whole thing, but do course samples and you

[1:07:10] get a pretty good idea on that. Yeah, we did that. You did do course samples, okay. Okay, because

[1:07:17] you know, it wasn't explained it and say well we got this and we got that but it wasn't saying

[1:07:22] how you got to, so you did course samples and that's how you got contaminants. Yeah. Okay, we did

[1:07:27] And then I'm sad that our main meeting with...

[1:07:30] They met with us. They were talking to us about what they actually found.

[1:07:34] Right. Right.

[1:07:35] We'll have a work construction for about 40 from my years. I guess I might, you know,

[1:07:39] a little expertise in what you can do to find it.

[1:07:42] Yeah. Yeah.

[1:07:43] Thank you. Thank you.

[1:07:44] Thank you. Thank you.

[1:07:45] Thank you. So we have on the board right now designed by Snowinson.

[1:07:51] Do you want to speak to it, Matt?

[1:07:54] Sure. So this is a landscaping design.

[1:07:56] It wouldn't be a complete design plan that you could go out to bed with, but it's a really great conceptual

[1:08:03] scale drawing of what a

[1:08:06] Potential walking park would look like here. So you have a trail

[1:08:11] Within the park with specific tree plannings and then a proposed splash pad with a parking area in the center and then another parking area to the north

[1:08:22] or to the southwest. This is flipped upside down. So this is another idea that we

[1:08:29] wanted to put in front of the board. This is drawn by a human unlike the

[1:08:35] last drawing, which is drawn by AI. But this is another approach. I've been

[1:08:40] having a really hard time getting a straight answer. I know a fan's out of

[1:08:44] Fresno Niel about what if this is feasible knowing the current underground

[1:08:48] conditions and whether or not we could bid out something like this now or if if we would need to do targeted solar removal and I think that's kind of the struggle for us right now is that Tim doesn't have the full answer yet and we only have a few months with the money to

[1:09:07] essentially clean up after the fire.

[1:09:10] So the brick pile of your mark was to clean up after the fire.

[1:09:15] So it's job is done and we're trying to deploy it

[1:09:18] in a strategic way.

[1:09:20] Tim and I have been trying to brainstorm ways.

[1:09:22] We can spend down this money efficiently by the end of December.

[1:09:27] So we're really trying to understand what the town wants to see here

[1:09:31] so that we can move forward our efforts.

[1:09:34] Fuston O'Neil has paused the elements of the contract that we signed with them a few months ago that we're related to designing so

[1:09:45] That's still baked into we had a hundred ninety one thousand dollar contract with Fuston O'Neil

[1:09:49] We spent about 50,000 there's about a hundred and forty thousand balance on that contract that's itemized

[1:09:57] And if we're knocking I use that part of the contract and we want to shift things around

[1:10:02] there might be more than $200,000 left, but no matter what we do, we don't have a whole

[1:10:07] lot of time. And whatever we do, I really need to go back to DP and say, this is what we're

[1:10:14] going to do. Is this something you'll reimburse? And so they were fine with us, redeveloping the

[1:10:21] parking lot for, who was it great upon about a year ago as a parking lot with a green elements.

[1:10:30] So they said if you could do parking to resource and buy it to the lot

[1:10:35] It also would help contain any remaining contaminants and they also said you if you can make a green that would be better since it's better for the environment

[1:10:44] So I don't think that DEP would be against

[1:10:47] More of a recreational type park, but we would need to know

[1:10:50] From the environmentalists on the job

[1:10:54] What what's feasible and that's what we really need to know

[1:10:58] quickly, and then we need to know from the board where they want to go with this piece of land, too.

[1:11:12] What's feasible in terms of cleanup?

[1:11:13] We need to know what the end point is.

[1:11:16] Like I'll say in earlier, it's different if it's a parking lot versus a park.

[1:11:21] So that sort of part of the reason behind the pause is, you know, we need to kind of understand what the town wants,

[1:11:29] And then that kind of informs what the cleanup would cost and, you know, what it would look like.

[1:11:35] It sounds like it sounds like the, the, everybody is sort of consistently saying that we need the parking,

[1:11:44] but we want some, it's like a hybrid of both. That's what it sounds like. So,

[1:11:51] it just matters how we spend, like we don't want to lose that money and we can't save that money, right?

[1:11:58] So then how do we how do we best because that's like that's the

[1:12:03] This wasn't like a grant type money. This was an earmark. So essentially there was a

[1:12:10] Disaster's fire and orange and

[1:12:13] Suzy webs and Joe come afird a petitioned in the court to get us money that essentially is derived from our befunding

[1:12:22] And our befunding had to be spent in general by December 31, 2026

[1:12:28] So the chances of an extension are probably pretty low. I'm still going to see if we can do it

[1:12:35] But it wasn't like a grant to build a park. It was a grunt. It was a hear mark

[1:12:40] Too clean up the asbestos late in bricks, right, but we want but we want to be

[1:12:46] So mindful right of making sure we use that money if we have a plan

[1:12:51] I had a that we wanted to do something like this. Let's use that money that's gonna benefit us for this next project

[1:12:57] right, that's what we're trying to do.

[1:13:02] So what I heard was that there's a strong interest to provide parking to enable the economic

[1:13:11] development of the Carol's Quarter. However, since we've been down this road more than once,

[1:13:20] we don't want to close this door in anticipation of that happening. So I think that's the

[1:13:26] conundrum for me is that if a core capital is going to do it, we need some kind of good faith

[1:13:35] soon to let us know that, yeah, it is worth while setting aside essentially half of that

[1:13:42] lot for parking and we've been here before, we need to know and the building permits would

[1:13:52] the engineering would help all these things but we have a time line deadline from the

[1:13:57] rest of it. We have a lot of money to me a lot of money resting on that that goes

[1:14:02] out at the end of the year. I think at this point too, putting a financial, a financial

[1:14:10] piece to show that they're really, spin in the game. Right. I think that that's really

[1:14:16] important. What do you think David on that? Well, yeah. I mean, anything we can do to

[1:14:21] encourage them to get involved in it would be a good move for sure. We have in front of us

[1:14:27] two very thorough plans, two thought-out plans, and I'm wondering as I'm looking at them,

[1:14:33] as maybe they can be combined a little bit better. I don't know that we need all those

[1:14:39] parking spots, but maybe if we added the ones that they want, plus some others, that would give us

[1:14:45] more green space, that green space can be turned into a parking lot anytime if something comes up.

[1:14:52] But at least we have the green space to use in the near future until we get to a point that we need to...

[1:15:04] One of the things I thought about doing was seeing if we couldn't procure material for any beneficial use of the lot, for example, almost no matter what we do, we're going to need to build a retaining wall.

[1:15:20] And while we don't have enough money to build a retaining wall, we may have a decent amount of walls we could buy and get walls on site,

[1:15:31] so that we could have some materials on hand that could be used for anything that happens down the road,

[1:15:40] since we don't have a lot of time to spend money. And so that could be a good way to deploy capital now, get materials on site,

[1:15:47] And then go forward with a design, pursue additional grant money down the road next year, for example, to get to that end target.

[1:15:59] And even with the designing, I mean, we can work out a properly engineered design plan that incorporates elements of snow landscape design, the drawings, the survey.

[1:16:11] But even with that set of design plan, you're going to want to have a design hearing before

[1:16:16] we get a final design.

[1:16:18] So even if we could probably work out a design in this second quarter of the fiscal year,

[1:16:25] we wouldn't be looking at a design hearing until next January, February, anyway.

[1:16:30] So for me, spend as much to get a marketable design ready to see if we can't procure material

[1:16:38] for the site that could be used in any case, that way we can spend down the money without

[1:16:43] we do have and then pursue additional funds next year.

[1:16:53] It sounds like, no matter what we do, we need to bring a lot of fill in to level it.

[1:16:58] So there's the right expense right there.

[1:17:00] We could bring in more fill just to get it higher up.

[1:17:03] So even then, between those two elements, we could spend down cash and it also achieves

[1:17:13] environmental goals if we bring in more fell make it more level we further separate ourselves

[1:17:18] from the underground contaminants that are concerned as well.

[1:17:21] Since I think a beatman is going to be impossible.

[1:17:25] I don't know if we could fully debate the law.

[1:17:28] What do you think, Tim?

[1:17:30] I think you'd need to fully debate it.

[1:17:32] No, I think you can leave some contamination.

[1:17:34] It's just a matter of, you know, a more targeted approach.

[1:17:43] other comments.

[1:17:47] So it sounds like the thing on the table that is to deal with a

[1:17:54] court company about coming up with reassurances for arms that this is going to move

[1:18:02] forward. And that's what we're looking for. And that being said, I put that portion

[1:18:08] of our hearing away and inform you that we have upcoming meetings next Wednesday, 10, 7, 10,

[1:18:15] 21 and 11, 4, 11, 4,

[1:18:21] and to that end, I did contain motion too.

[1:18:25] Sorry, sorry.

[1:18:26] Go ahead.

[1:18:28] So we don't need to make any other decisions here.

[1:18:32] No, I've got a push point, I don't believe.

[1:18:34] So just in recap, just because that's how my brain works, so we're going to ask the owners

[1:18:41] of the building to, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

[1:18:48] Just to firm up dates as far as what their timeline is for the building, engineering, building

[1:18:55] permits, you'd like all that together.

[1:18:58] So I'm putting you back on the town manager to come up with a workable plan that we would

[1:19:03] be happy with.

[1:19:04] And to that end, we've done, we really, the purpose of this meeting was to give everybody

[1:19:09] who wanted to have input and it sounds like the idea is a hybrid of both and making sure

[1:19:19] that we have enough parking place for the building if they're investing in orange and

[1:19:26] they're really serious about it and then having some other parking places and whether it be

[1:19:33] if it's, you know, if we can get designs of a two story in that place or just a single story

[1:19:40] as Mary was talking about with food truck area, maybe electric charging stations perhaps,

[1:19:49] maybe some solar, maybe outlets for when they're, if we did a market or fair there, keeping

[1:19:58] that green space, so that's sort of a design.

[1:20:00] So it sounds like design things, we're just at the public hearing phase brainstorming phase.

[1:20:06] Right.

[1:20:06] And we've heard it.

[1:20:07] But yeah.

[1:20:08] But yeah, we need to find what we need to have the town manager has to know what the conceptual

[1:20:14] thought is, what we want to see in the design phase.

[1:20:18] So we're not going to ask them for all these different options.

[1:20:20] We're going to say, this is what we're kind of looking at.

[1:20:23] Right.

[1:20:23] That's my thought.

[1:20:25] Well, I'm a different thought on this.

[1:20:27] I believe that when I got, but I wanted out of this meeting, I got in that is that a course

[1:20:33] serious and we need to get met and them together to come up with a plan that would be

[1:20:41] amenable to both of us to pull this off as far as whether we do a splash pad or a double

[1:20:48] parking lot or anything like that is down the road. I just want to let everybody have a chance

[1:20:53] to talk to that end, to expand the money.

[1:20:56] Yeah, but that's the key as to make sure we spend as much as

[1:21:00] as much as money as we can for things that we need.

[1:21:03] And so I like that idea of trying to get whatever materials we would need

[1:21:08] to make it happen through the grant money.

[1:21:13] And just, and would we keep them on that site?

[1:21:16] Would we put the materials on that site or just buy them ahead of time

[1:21:20] and have it like they owe us that?

[1:21:23] like prepay for it and keep it on their site.

[1:21:25] Yeah, you have to take delivery to pick.

[1:21:29] That's municipal.

[1:21:31] So we could take delivery on site,

[1:21:33] maybe we could potentially take delivery in store it.

[1:21:37] But of course, if we spent the money for that site,

[1:21:40] we want to make sure it goes to that site too.

[1:21:43] So I think it's slippery slope.

[1:21:46] And if it's a matter of bringing in some fill,

[1:21:49] then I can talk to Tim about that.

[1:21:50] and bring in potentially some wall material.

[1:21:56] And maybe even if we get wall material,

[1:22:00] store it on site, maybe we can work out something with a local company that's willing to donate some time,

[1:22:05] or potentially leverage the highway crew to do some work too.

[1:22:09] Where we get heard on these projects is paying prevailing wage.

[1:22:15] So, when you have to pay prevailing wage for horizontal or vertical construction,

[1:22:20] pay top dollar based on wages determined through negotiations between the unions and Boston and the governor

[1:22:27] essentially so you pay a lot of money to get a profit.

[1:22:30] So we could procure material ahead of time with the money we have and then do additional procurement on the road if needed. So again, it would be all in the spirit to try to use the capital we do have to turn into tangible use. We don't have, it's unlikely that we have enough money to fully do any of these design concepts as is.

[1:22:59] because the cost of building that parking lot design with the splash pad is certainly a

[1:23:06] one to $2 million project. The cost of this landscape design, if we went on and bid this job

[1:23:13] as is, and you had to couple in any type of environmental abatement work at the same time,

[1:23:18] as well as putting in for your full wetlands delineation design, getting through the conservation

[1:23:25] commission process and then actually procuring material and building all this. This is probably

[1:23:30] a six to eight hundred thousand dollar project right here. You've got two to three hundred. So

[1:23:36] I just don't see it happening unless you, yeah, I just don't see it. It's the time that I'm

[1:23:59] Not 300, but let's be clear.

[1:24:03] Long times, like, Matt's right.

[1:24:06] We got to have a grants to get the concept

[1:24:09] that is designed and approved.

[1:24:12] Okay, but it can be done, it's in steps.

[1:24:16] And so as Kelly summarized, hybrid.

[1:24:19] Okay, green space.

[1:24:21] We really get to be clear on how we obeyed

[1:24:23] because I think we have two very different

[1:24:26] thought process on that with very different implications, but we won't go into that tonight.

[1:24:32] And skin in the game is more than building, get a building permit and tell us your timeline.

[1:24:38] We've been down that road with three other owners.

[1:24:41] My, if it was my property, I'd say, up, give us that, and put $100,000 in an outscrope.

[1:24:48] Okay, if you can't put $100,000 in, do it in four payments over the next two years.

[1:24:53] Okay, if you can't do that, if you sell the property, we put a lean on the buildings and we get a hundred grand out of that because a building permit in a timeline and my opinion doesn't cut it, we've been down this road.

[1:25:06] So Lisa's comments about this is all the owners need to do.

[1:25:10] I would say no, we need cash on the barrel head somehow to say this is a real deal. Thank you.

[1:25:19] And we want them here. We do want them here.

[1:25:21] We want them to know that we want them here.

[1:25:23] Absolutely, we want them here and we'll do the parking.

[1:25:26] We want them, we're excited, right?

[1:25:27] We're very happy to have them come,

[1:25:30] but we just need to see more.

[1:25:34] Yeah.

[1:25:35] So to that end, I would entertain motion to adjourn the meeting.

[1:25:39] It's 655.

[1:25:41] So moved.

[1:25:42] Second that.

[1:25:43] All those in favor?

[1:25:45] Hi.

[1:25:47] Thank you, everybody.

[1:25:48] Thank you.

Orange Selectboard Meeting September 23, 2026

Transcript