[0:10] That amazing what I.

[0:13] OK.

[0:40] OK, now I get that.

[0:47] John Yes.

[0:51] Can you hear me

[0:56] to the.

[1:12] Yes. That better? That's all of my IT knowledge in 60

[1:19] seconds. Yeah.

[1:26] All right. Good deal. So, um, get this back open for the room.

[1:36] So this is our April 7th meeting of the Impact the advisory Committee.

[1:43] Uh, I apologize to the group for last week. I don't know what it is about these meetings

[1:48] that makes me go to the doctor,

[1:52] but, but it's landed that way. It's landed that way twice, so I apologize, um. Doesn't

[1:59] look like we have any public in the room. So, I think Sean, what we're ready to do

[2:05] from this end, I'm gonna get up and. The water adjusted impact feeds. Uh, document

[2:13] on the screen in the room here and then if you want to review from last meeting and

[2:20] kind of what you did to prep for today and we'll just get started. Sounds good.

[2:36] All right, you got the floor. All right, you want, oh, you want me to share what

[2:41] I had? Um, I've got what I've got up on our screen is the, the water impact fee

[2:49] uh first page exhibit 18. Where you, uh, I think this is where you

[2:57] Did the conversion, maybe I pulled the wrong one up. Well, I can, will mine show

[3:03] up on the screen if I share my screen?

[3:10] It will hang on just a second. I can make that happen.

[3:18] OK, hang on. Hang on I bring that Over here.

[3:30] Then I have to change, I'm almost there, Sean. I'm almost there.

[3:41] Yes, it will show up on our screen. I have you on the main monitor. All right, so

[3:47] let me share. Oh, now it says you're not, I'm not allowed to share.

[3:54] Oh, hang on. We can get that. Let's see. Uh, make host.

[4:02] You are the host.

[4:05] All right. Oh, hey, look at that power. OK, sure.

[4:16] OK, so what we have up here is our You're gonna have

[4:24] calculation. Sean, you're gonna have to blow that up quite a bit. Oh yep, can do.

[4:31] Oh, too much. Yeah, it's a little too much. That's, that's getting back well back

[4:36] up one spot.

[4:41] Let's try that. Is that good for both. OK. Let's try that, Sean. All right. So what

[4:49] we have here is our calculation of what the sewer, let me go to water, sorry, let

[4:53] me blow this one up. All right, so calculation of our water impact fee and

[5:01] I'll walk kind of briefly through the steps we have in here, but essentially we've

[5:06] got our different categories going down the left side here. We have our residential

[5:11] development, single family detached. Residential development, so all others, so this

[5:15] is more of your multi-family style, and that's per living unit as well. And then

[5:21] we have our commercial, so or anything non-residential, which is based on the meter

[5:27] size, and we set that up through a 2 inch meter and then everything greater would

[5:32] be calculated based on the actual capacity of that larger meter size. Today, looking

[5:39] at that present impact fee column, $3310. Our multi-family

[5:46] is 79% of that and then we use the same calculation for our, our non-residential.

[5:55] So moving over a little, our calculated impact the. would be $6,114 as compared

[6:03] to today's 3310. So as we went through that last time, oops.

[6:12] What we talked about doing was coming back and setting the fee at

[6:19] 70% of the current fee, or sorry, of the calculated fee, so the 6600.

[6:27] And then it's transitioning that in over 3 years. So what this would do then would

[6:34] be to take, here's the, the fee getting up to uh roughly 70% of that over 3 years.

[6:41] Now, one point, and I have the models up as well, but I assumed a 3.5% inflation.

[6:48] I know I had that in my notes, but as I saw in your notes, we talked about a different

[6:53] number, so we just need to, to pick our inflation assumption.

[6:59] And that would be our, our total fee. Now, as we talked through this, coming back

[7:04] to establish a set of. A fee based on a set of fixture units.

[7:11] And so in this case, when we went back and did some calculations, we noticed that

[7:18] in general, 16 fixture units equaled 1 single family home or one ERU equivalent

[7:26] residential unit. And then we set a floor, so this is maybe a discussion point as

[7:32] well, that we would go no lower than a certain amount of fixture units, and right

[7:37] now I've just plugged that at 12. And so what that does is it calculates our base

[7:44] impact fee. At 16. Fixture units, so that would be next year

[7:51] would go from 3310 to 4280 to 4429 to 4584, whatever that timing

[7:59] transition would be on the water side.

[8:07] And then that results if you can put that back down there for just a second Sean

[8:12] and then that results in these different per fixture unit cost in each year over

[8:18] the transition, right? So the purpose of the floor was if I remember right, if they

[8:24] had. 13 fixtures, then they get that per fixture unit amount

[8:32] deducted down to 13. But we don't well.

[8:38] Is that right? That's talked about. I don't know that we had set the 12 and when

[8:44] we talked at our last meeting, but it was something we set a floor. OK, thanks.

[8:57] So does that sound like where we were last time other than the number of fixtures,

[9:02] OK, we haven't discussed that. OK. So memory is then that Sean, you and

[9:10] Rob communicated about the fixture numbers.

[9:14] No, I, I didn't get that info to him. He took an average. It's pretty complicated

[9:19] getting that number. So we didn't work, so these numbers didn't come from our average

[9:23] houses, no, um, I'm partway there. I have all the bathrooms from tax data, but what

[9:29] I don't have is the other like, um, 40%. Of our dwellings,

[9:37] 30% have one bath, which is 3 fixtures, 40% have two full baths, which are

[9:45] um 6 fixtures, um, then there's an average of 1. Additional fixture unit, uh, based

[9:52] on 2100 residents. Um, but I don't have, I haven't worked all the way through it.

[9:59] OK. But I'm, so, Sean, where, remind me then, where did you get the 16 from? That

[10:06] was doing a little bit of math at myself and some other folks here, uh, Zach and

[10:12] um Other folks digging into just kind of what a typical average home would be, so

[10:19] it may or may not be, it might be a little different than what Polson has, so that's

[10:25] where we, we can change those numbers. OK. So was that a number you wanted to change,

[10:31] Dennis or Jamie? I felt like a, a one bedroom apartment or one bedroom house, small,

[10:39] 600 square foot small house should have a substantial reduction in the impact that

[10:46] will create. So it should be, in my opinion, quite a little less, the 16 is not that

[10:51] size house. The 16 was a bigger house, right, so you're maybe what you really want

[10:56] is a lower minimum. Yes, you want the 12 to come down. I do. OK. What I was hoping

[11:03] we would accomplish here is that we would have on the top side of the payment schedule,

[11:08] we would have these being lowered, which it has, it's not as much as I was hoping

[11:13] for, and the upper side would be greater, offset that. So the bigger houses would

[11:19] help offset that that smaller house for that amount of impact. Oh, I see what you're

[11:23] saying. You want more slow, basically you want the curve fixture number to be higher.

[11:28] I like the per fixture number. I want the per picture numbers the amount of fixtures

[11:34] in the two bedroom house to be lower than 12. Uh, I don't know where the calculation

[11:38] came from the $267 that was for fixture. That was the that was at $6100 divided by

[11:44] 16. OK, right. OK. I didn't, I didn't know where that came from, right, so I mean

[11:51] that's why it'd be hard to move that, um, unless we decided 16 was the wrong number.

[11:57] But we can certainly lower them. That number of pictures. How many would have. How

[12:04] many pictures for the 11 bedroom, 1 bathhouse have? It's usually 3 for a full bath.

[12:12] So that's the, the shower, the sink. In the toilet, um, and then it would have,

[12:20] I'm not sure how many on the kitchen. Um, I don't know. Part of, part of our challenge

[12:26] with our permitting is it's kind of on the honor system when it comes to it, and

[12:30] it doesn't make a big permit difference. And so a lot of times the plumbers come

[12:34] in here, I've seen it time and time again, and they're guessing at the number of

[12:38] fixtures. And so, um, I thought a better way would maybe just seeing what they're

[12:44] assessed for. And so that's kind of where I did the deep dive. I was able, on Friday,

[12:50] I was able to get all the The data for all the residences um from the Ryan Ryan database,

[12:57] so I got that far and started breaking it down, but I hadn't quite crossed the finish

[13:01] line with that, but. I think that's something we can get at least based on tax, um,

[13:07] and then the other question would be is how far back in time do we want to go. So

[13:13] this data goes back to every residence in the city, whether it's was built in 1910

[13:20] or last, so we're talking about like the last 3 to 5 years, last 3 to 5 years. We

[13:26] weren't trying to go up all the way back. OK. But if you, so if you've got 3 in the

[13:31] back. And you've got a sink in the kitchen, right? That's 4 and probably a dishwasher,

[13:38] I would assume. That's 5.

[13:42] washing machines, 66, and uh probably a laundry would be 7, a laundry. That's the

[13:49] washing machine. Well, there's the, the, the laundry sink. We had a laundry sink.

[13:54] I mean, I think of the house I had in Missoula, I had 6 fixtures inside, inside,

[14:00] um, uh, then, you know. Laundry sinks mandatory or just it would be, no, I guess

[14:05] they wouldn't be because they do they do it in closets and that sort of thing. But

[14:09] they are, I didn't get one and we put a lot of laundry sinks, yeah, yeah. So and

[14:16] then the hose bibs outside, um,

[14:21] but we weren't, we weren't counting the outside, were we? We were water we would

[14:25] for sure we wouldn't.

[14:30] Correct. Correct, but we weren't counting irrigation. Well, we, we figured that was

[14:37] being picked up with additional cost of in usage. So if we, if we drop that

[14:44] number, that minimum number wrong balance to uh. 6, then

[14:52] that gets us down to the minimum house, right what I'm after.

[15:00] I'm just trying to, trying to get this workforce housing certain help towards that.

[15:04] So does it um Since we're calculating the part fixture difference.

[15:12] Sean The floor. I mean, whatever that number we set it at.

[15:20] If somebody has 8, they're still gonna pay 8 times the perfect fixture

[15:27] amount, right? So we're not really losing anything there. The

[15:34] And that's what this shows up on the screen if I'm still sharing, so here's your

[15:37] number of fixtures down the left side. So $12 the minimum all the way up. Here's

[15:44] the current, this would be at 12 fixtures, so actually a $100 decrease and then it

[15:50] goes up, right, based on that count. So if we lower those fixtures.

[15:57] Then that would get us our, you know, it just, it just scale this more, right? So

[16:03] the Dennis's point, if we set it at 8, there's gonna be a fairly deep discount compared

[16:08] to today, but somebody that's got 16 is gonna pay substantially more. Right, correct.

[16:17] Sean, can you or maybe remind me why we're at 70% of that number? So for 16 units,

[16:24] we got 4280 for a fee. And that's 70% of the, that's just a choice we made and there

[16:31] was, so we just had a conversation and I think you were a little bit higher and that

[16:37] was a little bit lower and you guys agreed on that. I think I was 60 and you were

[16:41] 80 and we ended up setting 70. But that's not set in stone. That's that's fine. I

[16:44] mean I just want to,

[16:47] and the goal was to start it, so it wasn't all in one first year we got over a three-year

[16:52] period to get to the 100%, right. So I think the conversation on this end, Sean,

[16:59] is moving 12 to 6.

[17:07] And if we do that, Do we need to change the 16 for some reason?

[17:15] Possibly it, it maybe needs to be something less, but if I just changed the 6.

[17:23] Remember it was about break even at at 12, right? We're still kind of at that same

[17:28] number, right? And so here's your discount now for someone with just 6.

[17:35] It's discounting it by $1700. As compared to the current BES. That's pretty

[17:42] substantial, oh yeah. But now you're making it up on your bigger houses. I know that.

[17:49] I mean, I mean, it's certainly adding up. We don't know what the distribution of

[17:53] construction is. Yeah, we don't we don't know what it's gonna add up to. And that's

[17:58] the concern is that we're not collecting enough. We know you know what that's not

[18:02] your concern. My concern is we're not adding up enough. We're not getting enough

[18:06] money to pay for. I think if you go back and you look at what's being built for the

[18:10] last 3 years. You're gonna have minimal amount of one bedroom. That's right. You're

[18:17] gonna have a whole bunch of 4 bedroom and 5 bedroom. But you're looking at me, I

[18:21] know what you built and I know what you're building.

[18:26] You're gonna be in that 20, yeah range,

[18:30] yeah, yeah, I think so cause so again. I, I'm not opposed to impact fees. I'm, what

[18:38] I'm trying to do is to see if we can't help these smaller units be able to get more

[18:44] of them built more notably, and it's just gonna take a combination of lots of different

[18:48] things and that's only one minor piece of it, but we, we had a, uh, strategic planning

[18:54] session with the city commission last, last Tuesday. Wednesday, Tuesday night,

[19:01] Tuesday evening, um, and affordable housing was obviously one of the topics and so

[19:07] I just gave them a snippet of the conversations that we've been having here, um,

[19:14] with regard to trying to develop some type of incentives on the affordable housing

[19:20] and into the impact and at the same time recognize and encourage and so um. Yeah,

[19:28] they were, that was, that was good news. They were glad to hear something. Right,

[19:33] and well, and this is towards James's point because I, I mean, that's obviously something

[19:38] I live with too about collecting.

[19:43] But we have lived with the same impact since 2014, so. A

[19:50] 70% increase is dramatic, yes, um, for what that will do for our ability to fund

[19:58] these extra capacity types of projects. So that we just looked at um Sewer? This

[20:04] was just, this was just water, same thing. The one thing I did want to say though

[20:10] on the fixture units is there are some weightings to it as an example. A washing

[20:17] machine is 2, right? Uh, a sink is 1. Uh, a shower,

[20:24] depends what it is, but a bathtub, like a large bathtub, is 3, so there's different

[20:29] values. So that's where we come back to the, you know, 12 or 16. It's not just one

[20:35] for 1. There's a flow factor as part of that as well. So I think once we nail down

[20:42] what are. What we want our average or typical home to be, and I had changed this

[20:48] to 12, right? It was 16 before, and then we set our minimum, then that's gonna

[20:55] drive what that difference is. Between the smaller homes and the bigger homes, or

[21:03] with more units and less picture units. So then actually this piece that we just

[21:08] you just discussed is actually more narrative it's more narrative than quantitative

[21:15] because um. You've got a shower, a sink, and a

[21:22] toilet in the bathroom, right? Are those all one?

[21:29] No. No. What's what, so what, what is, what's our weight there? So a bathtub

[21:36] slash shower is 2. OK. A high efficiency toilet is 1 point.

[21:46] I can't read this, goodness 1.3 or 1.5 or 1.8, um, and then a sink is one,

[21:53] I, yeah, sink is one. All right, and so what is a kitchen sink? Kitchen sink

[22:00] is 20, it's a 2, OK. And then a um. A

[22:08] a dishwasher, 1.5.

[22:14] And then the washing machine. 2 2. All right, so that

[22:21] puts us 24 5 15 here.

[22:28] 24. 2 or 2 bedroom 2 bath. That that's at about 16.5, 7, about 16.5 or 2 or 3 bed,

[22:35] 2 bath. Fixtures, yeah, but with this, this very basic house, we've got 4.

[22:43] 59, so this works out, this works out to 9. The basic house that Dennis was describing

[22:51] works out to 9 fixtures based on the waiting that you just described.

[22:58] So if we did 16 and 9.

[23:04] So 16 still be a base for a typical 9 is our minimum, that would drop that 9 down

[23:11] to $900 down $900 from today. So it dropped at $900 as opposed to

[23:19] what were we looking at $1700.

[23:25] So again, I think, I think part of this is philosophy, part of this is the science,

[23:32] right, piece of it on how we want to establish this and what our goal is. I think

[23:38] we've got some wiggle room. We do want to base this just because of the challenges

[23:43] on these fees around the country. We want to be a little careful, make sure we dot

[23:47] our I's and cross our T's. But I think if we, if we can set a minimum that look,

[23:52] this is our base. And this is our typical as the 16 or maybe it's 12, right? That's

[23:58] just gonna change our numbers around, then we can work, we can work with that and

[24:03] document those.

[24:07] Well, I think

[24:10] I, I mean, I don't have, we could sit down and work through the numbers just like

[24:14] this for the typical what what were you calling it under the 2 bedroom 33 bed 2 bath,

[24:21] yeah, we're gonna have to look at plans, but we could go and look at all that that

[24:24] would give us that whether that 16 is a good number, but I feel like 16 is pretty

[24:29] close. Would you say it was 16.5? It was about 16.5 because the The ones where it's

[24:36] like 1.5, it added up to about 16.5 if you put the toothpick it's on the outside

[24:41] of the house, which is typical, I think um. Yes, it is difficult, and what I have

[24:46] discovered is not near enough

[24:50] a whole lot of yard hos anyways, um.

[24:56] And then so I think we're pretty good with the 16 and like you said, Sean, that might

[25:01] have to wiggle a little bit, um. And then the 9 becomes the 4.

[25:10] But under where we're at now, that's only, that's a $900 deduction. Is that enough

[25:17] where we're trying to go? That's not from from today's number, which is profoundly

[25:22] low. That's true, I mean. Because it's, there's been so much inflation since 2014,

[25:28] especially in construction. So we gotta, you know, this is to replace equipment replace

[25:35] material. I mean, as look at me with

[25:40] VDI. I don't mean to be yeah, but I know you want it lower, but I, well, you know,

[25:45] this is the same, same concerns that you've got to make sure we have enough money

[25:48] to replace this. I quit when the time comes. Agree. I do

[25:56] it. Um, my, my issue here again is We're trying to, what the idea here was not to

[26:03] make this so complicated. It was to try to make it so right now, you come in, you're

[26:10] building a house, it's 3310 bucks, doesn't matter what you build it, right? And I

[26:16] think here under this method, we get to this this per fixture cost. You can figure

[26:22] it out for yourself. Well, again, if you're, you know, got 1.25 for this and one

[26:28] for that and 2 for that, and, well, if I go do a smaller sink, then I can do it,

[26:32] you know, I, I, I, I don't just think it's getting a little maybe these guys can

[26:37] answer better than anybody because everyone wants to be dealing with it, but that

[26:40] seems to be complicating this thing more than I had envisioned to be complicated.

[26:45] So I mean, you're moving from absolutely no variation to, you know,

[26:52] calculations of so if you have a toilet that's efficient to toilet, it only counts

[26:57] as one, and I just think you, you, to me from a builder standpoint coming in here

[27:03] kind of knowing what to tell their client ahead of time. What the impact is gonna

[27:07] be is gonna be very difficult. So if there was a way to And Maybe I, I

[27:15] just can't, I don't think in terms of trying to calculate all these variations of

[27:18] every little tiny thing, whether it's a shower it's got a showerhead on it that's

[27:23] an efficiency showerhead versus, I mean, can we, can we just do a a a sink is one

[27:30] and I mean, the problem is though, like what you just said, right, or a problem is.

[27:37] There's a lawsuit with a cattle spell of whitefish, whitefish and the the lawsuit

[27:42] in whitefish. was about showering. But the city calculated it wrong. Yes,

[27:50] yes, I, I, I agree, and I think that's, that's huge to us, but I'm just saying, and

[27:55] it was carried on. The problem was it was carried on with, and, and hadn't been caught

[28:00] in the and supposedly from what I've heard, the city knew it and was going to correct

[28:05] it but that just never got to it getting that correct. I think they were starting.

[28:08] They were starting, but, but my only point about the showerhead was is that. That

[28:14] to to to to agree with your point that

[28:19] You have to be very careful as as we go down this track, then the definition and

[28:25] the Implementation, you have to be very careful. That's that that's what that has

[28:31] been, I mean, I like generally where we're headed with this, but that has been my

[28:36] biggest concern is that um Linda Martel or Rob. Not

[28:44] in the public, but certainly these three have to be able to say that is this and

[28:49] that is that from a calculation standpoint. So I, and I think that, so what, what

[28:54] would you, what do you all give us some feedback.

[29:02] I like calculating that the 1.5 and stuff is gonna probably possibly cause some complications

[29:10] and that we're gonna. No. Oh wow. OK. And you're gonna have some.

[29:18] Contractors that are gonna be honest to a fault, and some that are gonna Purposely

[29:23] underestimate the number of fixtures and then surprise when you go to show up after

[29:29] impact fee has been collected, there's more fixtures than what they paid for or they

[29:32] paid the impact fee for the high efficiency toilet and this that and the other. And

[29:39] then decided they could cut corners or save money and now none of that stuff is in

[29:44] and we're on on weight 58, maybe even 10 short.

[29:52] I would think the impact is for high efficiency would be a lower fixture count, right,

[29:58] so if they, if they tell us they're putting high efficiency in because it's but it's

[30:02] more expensive, so they go with the cheaper stuff. Now we're short because we didn't

[30:08] charge for. The non-efficient. I can tell you what we did in regards to building

[30:15] permit fees. It's a similar concept, a little bit different application, but

[30:23] what our problems is we had some contractors that would put a low ball number. Um,

[30:30] on their building permit applications, and then you get other contractors that were

[30:35] honest to a fault or they would, they would put the amount what it actually costs,

[30:39] and we're fighting with these people over here and, and this guy is paying a lot

[30:43] more than this person and permit fees like in the tune of thousands of dollars in

[30:50] one application where they had a 4plex, um, and so then what we did is we went to

[30:54] a table to the. IBC, which was an average, and um Of cost of building

[31:02] across the nation, and it's, it's not, it doesn't accurately reflect because today's

[31:08] costing about $300 a square foot, and this table says it's $178 or something like

[31:15] that, $167 way less, almost half of what it is, but it's consistent and it's fair

[31:23] and it funds the building apartment the way it was intended to function, and so we

[31:27] take the square footage. Multiplied by that, it gives you the evaluation, and so

[31:32] whether you're this person over here, um, or this person regardless of the evaluation,

[31:38] we do it, we do it off the table in square footage and um it, it's, it's fair for

[31:44] everyone across whether you're building a larger home or something smaller. It's,

[31:49] it's fair, and it's based on the state's table. And so I wonder if there's a way

[31:53] that it would be similar to square footage, if there's a way to Um, I don't know

[32:00] if it's in the, the ICC or if there's an estimate on fixtures per square footage,

[32:06] you know, I don't, I don't know, I'm just trying to think out of the box here, but

[32:09] if there's a way we could look at the plans, it's really easy, boom, here's your

[32:13] amount. You know, I don't know if, cause you could have one house that has more fixtures

[32:19] and have the same square footage as another, but, but if there's a way you can because

[32:23] that's a simple way of doing it. Um, so mother-in-law apartments and things like

[32:27] that would come into play as well. So if you have a basement that's set up for a

[32:30] mother-in-law and it has all the kitchen and everything set up in a do, that would

[32:35] be different than trying to check on it per square foot basis. I, what, what my input

[32:39] here is let's try to keep it simple, as simple as we can. And, and I mean you, you've

[32:45] got it totally simple right now. A house is 33,000 bucks, doesn't matter if it's.

[32:52] 40,000 square feet or 10, 5, 2000 square feet, right. So there is, there is a, a,

[32:58] a one discount for um other residential units which we apply to ADUs um and apartment

[33:05] buildings and it's, uh, was it Martel probably like is it like 80%. Of the whole

[33:11] something. I don't remember um. It, it, so instead of paying the 7100. That

[33:19] doesn't count the admin the our impacts are more like 6100, so there's There's like

[33:25] a 15% discount. So there's a slight one, but, but you're right, there's either full

[33:32] price or there's slightly less, but it doesn't accommodate for the higher end or

[33:39] affordable either. So, so Sean, you kind of here where we're vacillating here, right?

[33:45] I mean, I think.

[33:49] I think we were all good in quotation until we heard you say

[33:56] that the fixtures are weighted, which then began to create more complexity with regard

[34:04] to how it was going to be calculated, our ability to communicate it, so on and so

[34:10] on. So what, what are your thoughts about the conversation at the moment? Uh, I mean,

[34:16] I think we, I don't think we have to get into, uh, is it a low flow shower head or

[34:21] low, you know, 1.6 gallon flush toilet. You can, but I don't know that we have to.

[34:28] If we're coming back and saying our typical home. I 9 fixture units because it has

[34:34] a, you know, shower tub, a sink, a toilet, a dishwasher, a washing machine, and a

[34:40] kitchen sink. I think that can be an easy way to just set your standard and we do,

[34:45] we don't have to go through it every time we get a schedule. This is what it is,

[34:50] something you'd have to check. Rob said, double check the ICC every now and then,

[34:54] make sure we've got the right number in there. And then we just kind of run with

[34:58] it from there and we don't, a sink is a sink, a toilet is a toilet, right? And, and

[35:03] that makes it a little simpler. I agree with Dennis, how deep do we want to go on

[35:07] this? Well, probably not too deep. I think we set our, our approach. So an example

[35:13] of that is in California, we have legislation that fortunately or unfortunately lets

[35:19] them establish. Fees based on square footage. Now I don't know that water and sewer

[35:25] really there's a correlation there, but we've used that and we basically just took

[35:30] an average and said, OK, in this case for the the little district I was working in,

[35:36] uh, 2000 square feet was the average home, and we use that and extrapolated and it's

[35:42] come out pretty even. They would have collected about the same amount of money. Overall,

[35:47] have they kept it a single fee versus this fee that was spread right based on square

[35:52] footage. So I think if we start with the right number. Financially, we should be

[35:58] good and let's just make sure we keep it as simple as we can from a calculation standpoint.

[36:06] Yeah. Would it be possible to do like a like a bathroom is so many like 3.4

[36:13] fixtures, a half bath is 2.4 fixtures, a kitchen is 5 fixtures, and then,

[36:22] and then we anything extra we add on per unit. Well, I mean,

[36:30] You could, you could, um, and I see what you're doing there where you're building

[36:35] a package, a package, right? But I, I'll be honest with you, I don't think that's

[36:41] as simple as this. Because this uh once you understand what's a 1, what's a 2, what's

[36:48] a 3 or whatever like you have your little conversion, right, um.

[36:55] Then then Then, then this is pretty much addition. This is addition, right?

[37:03] Whereas you get into the packages and then you're having to adjust each package based

[37:08] on each bill.

[37:11] Man, I, I honestly think this is simpler, right? Um. Is this

[37:18] covering just the impact fees for, like, are we separating uh the water sewer

[37:26] with these impact fees? Yeah, because he wouldn't, the I guess maybe not the easiest,

[37:33] maybe the easiest way to do it is like if you have an incoming only, which is gonna

[37:38] be like your water heater, your um your outside uh spigots and stuff, then there

[37:45] are one because they're incoming only and then anything that has incoming outgoing

[37:51] like a toilet, a shower, or sink. would be 2. If we're not separating waters, does

[37:58] that make sense? We, we are, yeah, I, I, we are, so I, I, I don't know if that's

[38:04] how the waiting system is built, tell you that. I, I don't like I just found out

[38:09] about the waiting system, so, um. My, my, my thing about it is also As

[38:17] you get a bigger home and you have more fixtures, you're using more water, put water

[38:22] in this case. So you're paying a higher rate to the as well for the usage of that

[38:29] water, right? So you're kind of making up a little bit, I shouldn't say making up,

[38:33] it's offsetting slightly by, by having uh you're, you're paying a higher rate as

[38:41] you because you're using more water. OK, um. And, and again, I, I, I would

[38:49] suggest, my opinion is that you don't try to weight these things. You just take the

[38:54] showers this much, toilets this much, water heater, uh, dishwashers this much. I

[39:00] mean they're, yes, they may use a little more water, maybe a little bit less. 11

[39:06] picture is one fixture. So, and we can do that. One, what? Say that, Sean. I said

[39:13] I think we could do that. What we do is we just say, OK, if if 16.5 is our real one.

[39:19] We just back into that number or or we just do the math based on its 66 whatever

[39:27] we wanna call it. It's not really a fixture unit, but we can quantify that and say

[39:31] it is what it is. We just, I just need to change my little math formula here to make

[39:36] that work and we could run with that. The weights, it's like 12 I think. So 1, so

[39:42] if we, yeah, so if we go 1 to 1, that gets us back to where we were talking about

[39:47] the 6. Right, right, and, and then that's just a matter of you adjusting the map.

[39:54] Yep.

[39:56] If it's 12, then it's a higher per rate per, per fixture. So it's, it's gonna be

[40:01] a. Whatever it is All, all my goal was when we started was to kind of balance out

[40:08] lower and higher paid more because the people are building a big home can afford

[40:12] more than the sick person with the best. And, and I think we all wanted to try and

[40:17] make it as simple as possible because right now, um, even though it is just the one

[40:22] fee, even explaining the one fee is difficult, right? Whereas if we have this calculated

[40:29] back into a per fixture fee and one's for one. Then you can count how many fixtures

[40:35] you have and figure it out yourself. You want to be efficient in your water amount,

[40:40] you can put a head on your shower that doesn't use toilets, right, less consumption

[40:45] of water. So you think you can back into those numbers that way, Sean?

[40:52] I think so. Do you think that makes it, and this is a totally unfair question, but

[40:58] that's what I do, I ask unfair question. So you think that makes it any. Less

[41:06] defensible.

[41:09] No, because we're what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna say, OK, if, if one is one for what

[41:16] we just talked about, then I'm gonna go back and say, OK, for that same home, what

[41:23] is, what is the true fixture unit count, and I'm gonna develop a ratio on that math

[41:29] to set it and so that it'll it'll map out correctly. I think as long as we can show

[41:35] the math and the how, I think we're OK. Yeah. Or we're better off. I won't say we're

[41:41] OK because who knows what people will do, but I know. So how does that? How does

[41:47] that play with Rob and Linda?

[41:50] If one's one. That's fine. I, I was kind of thinking through it as we're talking,

[41:55] if for some reason. We went back to the ratio. The idea was to revamp our

[42:02] plumbing permit, and then they list on there, and it could automatically calculate

[42:08] online on the PDF or something. I mean, there's there's solutions we can get to that,

[42:12] but um, that being said, my biggest question would be like on remodels, if somebody

[42:18] adds a bathroom, is that more impact fees or are they grandfathered in? You should

[42:23] be grandfathered in. I would, that's what I would assume, but I've seen some of these

[42:27] where they're planning, but the basement's gonna be finished later, um, and so there,

[42:32] there is, case in point is right here. So he,

[42:36] he anticipated, and then, uh, two years later, he's installing that building permit,

[42:44] correct? Yes, um, but in that case, what's the difference between that one and somebody

[42:48] that's grandfathered in, you know. Uh, like, at what, what, what point in time is

[42:54] it grandfathered in and it's an interesting question because I never asked that.

[42:58] So did my impact be include the because it's, it's flat rate, yeah, but under this

[43:06] method. Would we have done that? Well, that's what my question is. Yeah, no, it's

[43:13] a great question, um, cause I could, I, I'm just trying to find out what I'm thinking

[43:19] of is we have a certain percentage of the population tries to find loopholes. So

[43:26] Sean, what do you think about that? Like, so we'll, we'll use my house, right? When

[43:31] I built my, my house, my wife assured me. That that basement would never be finished.

[43:38] But because we were pouring concrete, the builder said, we might as well go ahead

[43:42] and put that stuff in, and if you never use it, you never use it. And now, I'm finished

[43:48] in the basement. It's very sore subject for me. um.

[43:55] I am literally doing it. So and my son, so would we based on this method are we

[44:03] only charging for fixtures? Or for potential connections.

[44:12] OK, we've got about 3 schools of thought here on this question. So the easy one is

[44:19] there are folks that don't feel like if when you add that new. I'll just say bathroom.

[44:28] It it's not changing the capacity that they're using. And I, and right, they're just

[44:33] need a bathroom for when the kids or grandkids come home. I don't, so they'd be grandfathered

[44:40] in theoretically then, right? However, in reality, we're not, we're not basing it

[44:45] on the actual use. This is, this is a capacity calculation. It's

[44:52] based on the potential that you impact the system. So that's where other folks will

[44:58] say no. If, if you're putting in a new fixture unit, you pay. And then there's some

[45:04] that are in the middle, and the middle is you set some standard of some. So that

[45:11] example I gave in that utility district in California, anything under 500 ft does

[45:17] not, even though there's a square footage base fee, anything under 500 square feet

[45:21] does not trigger a new an additional impact fee. So the folks in the middle

[45:29] would say, OK, Ed, you have this all plumbed theoretically. It's there, but you didn't

[45:36] have anything hooked up to that. Now you have something hooked up and it's over,

[45:41] you know, 3 fixture units, so now we're gonna ding you and maybe you set that at

[45:45] a level that seems reasonable that, OK, once it's over 4, you know, somebody takes

[45:50] a small home. Like my, my first rambler, you know, was like 1300 square feet and.

[45:58] We wanted to put a back end on it, and that would have been a significant change

[46:03] from a plumbing fixture unit perspective that I think with a bathroom and other things

[46:10] back there, I think would have warranted a fee. So I think that's how more folks

[46:14] will come back is, OK, if you're just adding. And I'm making up numbers here because

[46:19] I haven't thought this through far enough, you know, 3 fixture units, you're filling

[46:23] in your basement. Uh, OK, you hit 4 or 5, now we need to start doing something here

[46:28] because now you're impacting the system. I think that makes sense and we would collect

[46:33] that at the time of the building permit, right, Rob? So

[46:37] we'll play this out like we have been when I came in from my building permit and

[46:41] you were like, OK, so you're only adding 3 fixtures, so. Under what we just discussed,

[46:48] right? So you're good, but if I was putting in two new bathrooms. Exceeded that 3

[46:54] fixture limited at that time on building permit, we would collect additional. Based

[47:00] on the number of fixtures, based on the number of fixtures. That makes sense to me.

[47:03] I mean, I, yeah, is it the number of fixtures minus 3. So, or is it just, so in other

[47:09] words if I do 4, I pay for 4, if I do 3, I pay for none. OK, that's where we were

[47:14] at, right, Sean? That's unfortunately where we end up, yes. So there's like a trip

[47:19] wire and if you, if you, if you hit the trip wire, now you're paying for everything.

[47:24] But the idea was there's a certain margin we'll let go, but then after that it becomes

[47:30] more than just a one bathroom mat or whatever. If you're adding a a utility sink.

[47:37] Yeah, that's, that's not worth going back. But if you add the bathroom, that's, that

[47:44] is an impact and that's so that, that's where I think. So I think, yeah, so I think

[47:48] part of what we're asking Sean then is that you would then. Help us set that number

[47:55] as well. So what if that's 5 or 4 or whatever it is. Does that work OK for the

[48:02] building and planning? Would this apply to All new construction starting on April

[48:09] 7, 2025, or would this apply to that 1970s home that is now finishing their basement?

[48:19] Can we go backwards and make Ed pay? Yeah, cause I'm just, I'm just picturing me.

[48:21] I mean, I think,

[48:28] I, I think it's, it is what it is though, right? So if somebody comes in to get a

[48:32] building permit and the house is in 1970. It's grandfathered or no, it's already

[48:38] established their customer, so there would be no new impacts even if they're expanding

[48:42] the use. That's the way our ordinances are written. Then, yeah, but if we're adopting

[48:47] that moving forward, are we gonna go now go back and scoop in all these other forms?

[48:53] Because if, if moving forward today, the problem with doing that is, I mean, we already

[48:58] have an understanding of those units, right? And so now we would be changing that

[49:04] understanding. I, I don't think that's fair. I don't think that's right. Yeah, so

[49:08] I, I would think that's, that's, that would be a huge issue and be a political issue.

[49:14] Yeah, I don't think that

[49:16] that would be a for me that's a commission decision, but I, I, I. I strongly believe

[49:22] that you don't, you can't go back to these people who have been here for 40 years.

[49:26] They went out of battle and all of a sudden, oh, you're gonna be impact these now.

[49:30] So, so in, in essence what we're saying is that any, not just 1970s, but any unit

[49:37] that exists prior to the time the, well, I would want clarity. Let's say, um, so

[49:42] like in Jamie's neighborhood there's a lot of vacant lots. What if somebody went

[49:46] and let's say your basement was unfinished? I know there was one of your neighbors

[49:49] had an unfinished basement. Um, So we have a new neighbor who builds a new home.

[49:55] Then next year you finish your basement, no impact fees because yours already established.

[50:01] They finish their basement, they have impact fees. So that's where I see these types

[50:04] of scenarios. But, but if you go up front. I mean, yeah, this is an upfront issue,

[50:10] you know, upfront.

[50:13] I don't think the concept appears to make up for lost time. I mean, I, I, I don't

[50:19] charge impact fees to people who have already had a house under construction already

[50:23] before when these impact fees went in way back when. So I think the. The more

[50:31] Like The more complicated it gets.

[50:37] It might like, um, it might seem unfair, but the more complicated it gets, the more

[50:43] difficult it is to administer and the more likely folks try to avoid,

[50:52] so they have comfortability they don't do this and and so that was kind of my thinking

[50:56] is that people did, but I think the point is well taken that whatever we do we have

[51:02] to be very clear about this point and and. That has to be clear and and black and

[51:10] white written as to whatever we proposed as to how the grandfather yeah perfect.

[51:17] there was a lot of confusion when we first did impacting. I've been here forever,

[51:22] so I remember when we started it, I was on the first committee to start these, and

[51:27] the motion on the floor at the time for the impact fees was any subdivisions that

[51:33] are in final plan approval or preliminary plant approval will not pay impact fees.

[51:38] Well, that didn't fly, but the that that was the way that was written. What

[51:46] happened was that they ended this city end up saying anything that's in the final

[51:51] plan will not have to pay in fact feeds. So, um, There was a lot of discussion

[51:59] about that and rather than fight about it, said, OK, fine, we'll, we'll go along

[52:04] with it, but that's not what Concourse's motion was. So in this case, I think when

[52:10] the city council decides to do this, we have to have a starting date. At this point,

[52:15] any new construction that's gonna pay impact fees, this is the way it is. And if

[52:19] you do a basement, you gotta refinish it later, you gotta pay, you will pay the impact

[52:25] fees at that point you know it. Rather than Because, cause what we were doing, we

[52:31] had people who have bought lots already. In a preliminary plot situation, who came

[52:38] back to why I know anything about. So we gotta be really careful about starting point

[52:44] here. Yeah, the idea of what we call vested rights, you know, where they, they vested

[52:49] in, and well they, you know, they're, you're talking about that dependive just being

[52:54] very clear. Yeah. Anybody that's pay back already does not pay another impact more.

[53:01] Let me see if I'm, if I'm moving with where we're at at the moment. We're working

[53:06] with a 70% increase transitioned over 3 years. We Task Shaw

[53:14] to one fixture equals 1 fixture and that adjusts the 16 and the 9 or whatever it

[53:20] is whatever it is. That gives us a per fixture amount. The proposal would have to

[53:27] be very clear about exactly what the date is for the grandfathering before and after

[53:32] in terms of these these types of issues, and then we would need to be very clear

[53:39] about. The Number where the impact be kicks in. Yeah.

[53:48] And on that point, I think one thing, Ed, you can do is on that grandfathering is

[53:55] you can put an end date to that. So look, you get 1 year or 2 years so that people

[54:02] are aware if they want, they can do it right now, they don't pay the incremental,

[54:07] but at some point when this time passes, they can. So some folks have done that to

[54:13] Dennis's point, it can get confusing, but that is one way people work that. OK

[54:22] I, I think it's so notifying everybody and that, I mean, I just, I don't, so we have

[54:28] these, we have these per fixture impact these just being theoretical, um. And that

[54:36] works for residences.

[54:42] Do we use the same method for non-resident Sean? So, so these numbers here, this

[54:49] is sewer. So these are now the 3 quarters. So if we come back here.

[54:58] Then whatever we set for the residential.

[55:05] Blow this up a little bit. Whatever the fee is for the residential is what the 3/4

[55:10] inch is for non-residential, and then it increases based on the meter capacity, water

[55:15] and sewer. OK, so once we get into non-residential, anything over the the 3

[55:22] quarter.

[55:25] Then they just get a flat fee basically. Yep, correct. OK, that's good. Um, currently

[55:33] on our impact fee once you go over 2 inch, um, then it's based on

[55:40] yearly average demand and the equivalent units and we did, OK. Yep,

[55:48] and I wouldn't change that.

[55:53] I think I shared with most of the group, my horror story is a lumber mill. They didn't

[55:59] want a 12 inch, they wanted 26 inches because it was cheaper for the impact fee,

[56:04] and we said actually no, it's like 10 times what you think it's gonna be because

[56:09] of what you just said, cause their capacity is different.

[56:16] OK. So, I know you had some trepidation about this when we talked after the

[56:24] last committee. What are you thinking now? Um, I think it would just be time for

[56:31] Just adjusting and I think it's now if we wanted to do that, um, I think conceptually

[56:37] I like um where, where they're going, um, implementation time, my biggest concern

[56:44] is people loopholes or Doing projects without the permits, um, and people do that

[56:52] already and or we, we'll fight with them over impact fees, and I don't know why,

[56:57] but impact fees for whatever reason, it's, um, I understand the necessity and I agree

[57:03] with them. It's just public perception is a noise. But it's, but that's gonna, I

[57:09] mean, forgive me, but that's gonna kind of be the case whether they're paying a flat

[57:14] fee or per fixture. If they don't want to pay the fee, they may try and do

[57:21] the project without a building permit anyways fair.

[57:27] Yeah, and in this case. We're actually giving him an opportunity. To pay a lower

[57:35] impact fee.

[57:38] If it's a smaller house, if it's a smaller house, yeah, but Rob said that really

[57:43] struck me was this concern about the line contractors. Not that I know of any contractors

[57:49] that would do that, but, but I guess they could be out there. Well, if you're bringing

[57:54] in a set of plans for for review for billing permit. And they come and change it.

[58:01] They're supposed to come and tell you about those changes, and not, not all do do,

[58:05] but we have a hard time with them giving us some good plans. It depends on the contractor

[58:10] like it seems like it's a weird balance, so like commercial. It's like these large

[58:15] commercial projects, they go over the top and we'll have uh 100, it seems like the

[58:22] larger the corporation, the bigger the plan set like Walmart's 200 pages or I don't

[58:26] know, for a simple remodel, um, like all the schools. They're always excellent, they

[58:33] never balk or complain or anything, or just tell us what it is, here it is, and then

[58:39] it seems like the the smaller. Developers on a shoestring budget, um, those are the

[58:46] ones we go around and around with, um, and, and impact these are just one additional

[58:51] area. It's not like we, um, well, like you were talking about the the estimate value

[58:57] that was another place that we had, right.

[59:03] OK, but it's the same issue regardless, but it is this way.

[59:08] So what, what else? What else is? On all's mind to the day. And do, do we have

[59:16] clarity on that, uh, what's not included in the sewer that was in water? I mean,

[59:21] just outside fixtures, I guess. Yeah, yeah, typically just the hose bibs.

[59:29] OK. Can you say that again? Yeah, just typically the hose bibs.

[59:37] OK. Because they're not going through the sewer, right? Yup.

[59:43] We do have some irrigation only accounts.

[59:48] It would not be impacting pursuer for sure. They wouldn't pursue, but I know we charged

[59:54] the full impact fee upfront. And that is a good question. Um, we charge an impact

[1:00:00] fee up front for the 33 10% up front when you get service for our, um,

[1:00:07] irrigation. Um, is that because they're setting a separate meter? That's because

[1:00:13] they're setting a meter. Anytime we give a meter, they get the impact feed, um, and

[1:00:17] they could build 5 years from now. But if I go and put an irrigation system off my

[1:00:24] existing water. Line we wouldn't know about it. We, we don't charge an impact fee

[1:00:30] for that. No, no, and we wouldn't typically we don't know, know about it, right?

[1:00:35] So this is a decision they made to set a different meter specifically for the irrigation.

[1:00:41] Yeah, if you have an irrigation account, right, you don't have a lot of that though,

[1:00:45] do you? We have some, I think we're just, we're talking about that might be more

[1:00:51] appropriate for the super user fee, um, where we get some, there's one guy that uses

[1:00:56] 100 gallons a month, 100 or 100,000 yeah thanks.

[1:01:02] Um, it doesn't want, well, we have several accounts that we should pay that are just

[1:01:05] irrigation accounts because you're not paying, don't wanna pay the sewer fee for

[1:01:09] the just water and relevant areas. So that shouldn't apply. Either.

[1:01:19] Well, I need for irrigation only you could charge the non-residential meter charge.

[1:01:31] And how would that work when then they transitioned into a single family residence

[1:01:36] because we've we've had about 4 of these where they got service and then that year

[1:01:42] they and the next year they want to get it going and they're gonna build in the future

[1:01:46] and then. A year later we get building plans. I can think of at least 2 people I

[1:01:52] know for sure that did that. The other people are more, about 3. The 3rd hasn't applied

[1:01:57] for the building permit, but we see that as well.

[1:02:02] So they, they get the irrigation meter just so they can deal with the lot and then

[1:02:07] they eventually get on the, they build a house. Yeah, what they do is they, yeah,

[1:02:12] it's an irrigation meter, but they get their service, they're just using it for irrigation

[1:02:17] and then um there's no living on the property and then when they come a year or two

[1:02:24] later, then that's. They've already paid that water impact fee because we charge

[1:02:28] it any time we that meter in. So they've already paid that fee up front, but it would

[1:02:33] be like what we're talking about instead of a basement, adding a few fixtures, you're

[1:02:37] adding a whole house in that case. And so we would have a, a base and then whatever

[1:02:44] else. So that would be something to figure out that weird math because I could see

[1:02:48] somebody going nuts. They're charged for the minimum way up here when it's only one.

[1:02:53] If they would have done it all at one time, it would have the numbers would work

[1:02:57] out differently.

[1:03:01] Yeah, and, and this gets a little bit complicated. I mean, you could charge them

[1:03:05] the base impact fee and then if they build something smaller, there's some sort of

[1:03:11] credit mechanism or we charge them the, you know, if we say 9 is our minimum, we

[1:03:16] charge them 9, but there's, there's always, hey, if when we, when you come in and

[1:03:20] build it, you may be paying again. Yeah, I, I think, I think if we, if we went ahead

[1:03:26] and charged the floor. And then when they came in with for a building permit, we

[1:03:32] would know what number of fixtures is compared to the floor. It can't go any lower

[1:03:37] than the floor. And it becomes then higher than they owe an incremental fee, yeah,

[1:03:43] and so we just, we'll we'll credit them that base amount, yeah, I think that works,

[1:03:47] yeah. And then there, um, I know we have a 10 year sunset when the developer pays

[1:03:55] 50%. Well, I guess that's another question. Enough,

[1:04:01] um, when you do subdivision at final flat, the developer pays 50% of the impact fees.

[1:04:10] And then at the time of development, the owner gets a credit for that 50%. Um, that

[1:04:17] sunsets in 10 years. So if you're, if you received final final plat 12 years ago,

[1:04:22] you don't get any credits, and I think we're just almost all those subdivisions are

[1:04:27] done with, but um I'll. I'll, uh, I'll,

[1:04:38] um, I'll, I'll give you an example. I'll pick, uh, the one you've probably heard

[1:04:43] of manual living at Mission Bay. So they're gonna have to do 50% of impact

[1:04:51] fees. At prior to final plot based on the number of

[1:04:58] units. And so we don't, I guess we can base that maybe on a base, I don't know and

[1:05:04] credit. Yeah, I didn't know you're doing that for all subdivisions. Yeah, it's in

[1:05:10] our um our code. Uh, some of those like where it's a little bit weird is capital

[1:05:17] improvement. So like Ridgewater was prior received final prior. So that's, that's

[1:05:23] kind of a unique scenario, but if you came in with the new subdivision today, they

[1:05:28] would have to do 50%, um, 50% of the total impact fees for final plat. And

[1:05:36] so one of the discussions we have is how are we gonna take, would we allow some of

[1:05:40] those impact fees to be applied towards some city improvements that are needed, um,

[1:05:47] so that area. That area that um associated with that development cause of some improvements

[1:05:55] being made and, and that's all. Let me see if I get to what your question is though.

[1:05:59] is your question how would we calculate the 50% that they would owe? If it's on a

[1:06:06] fixture basis because we don't know what the fixture, how many fixtures are gonna

[1:06:09] be in that whole subdivision. Uh, yeah, I think maybe we would do 50% of the average

[1:06:14] and they would get a credit maybe. I don't, I don't know where the base. It, it would

[1:06:19] be something that would need to be determined, I guess that's what my point is, because

[1:06:22] we would need to consider that scenario. Um, what reminded me was, um, there's a

[1:06:29] sunset of 10 years and so would we do that 10 year sunset on. Would there be a sunset

[1:06:36] on the irrigation? Account Or those ones that did irrigation only, they got, they

[1:06:43] paid the full base price. With that, and they're gonna get a credit back for the

[1:06:49] base price after 10 years. So 15 years from now they go to develop, are they still

[1:06:54] gonna get that 50% credit or does it sunset? I, I understand how uh how the sunsetting

[1:07:01] works for the developer, but if somebody's paid to the impact fees. For the specific

[1:07:07] lot, it appears to me they should be able to do that. There shouldn't be a sunset.

[1:07:11] They should get that credit, whatever it is. Yeah, these are just questions that

[1:07:15] that that are gonna come up that should be and what about if this lot's been sold

[1:07:19] and then they build. Does, do you still, do you still see them the same way? So still

[1:07:24] I don't call you Jamie. So someone in lot 200, I didn't preserve besides I want to

[1:07:30] irrigate, but then they decide that, and then they turn around and sell the lot,

[1:07:34] and the new person's gonna build the new owner is gonna build the house. So do they

[1:07:38] still get that credit? Yeah, they should, yeah, technically we would, we would, we

[1:07:42] would have that credit perfect example. We did that exact thing on the lot right

[1:07:47] inside the gate. Yes, right. I was picking on that one, right? OK, so. paid the impact

[1:07:51] fees for water. So we can irrigate the trees in the back. And they and they sold

[1:07:57] the lot. So the lady that bought the lot should be able to get the credit back from

[1:08:00] and sometimes we have these negotiations um where somebody's Purchasing a lot

[1:08:08] and they negotiate that the seller pays the impact fees. So the new person that will

[1:08:13] apply and maybe we could use that the model of kind of like the base or you know,

[1:08:19] I don't know these are just questions that are I'm sure will come up so hopefully

[1:08:25] I hate to have to come up after the fact after that. So there will be some there

[1:08:30] always is everything seems like somebody's always squeezing. Well, yeah, I mean even

[1:08:35] now things come up that we have to kind of. Re-engineer around that permit a little

[1:08:40] bit and just try and be as fair as we possibly can and and go back to the original

[1:08:46] logic of what got grandfathered, what didn't get grandfathered who paid what, you

[1:08:51] know, and and. But that 50% is a good question. It's a good question.

[1:08:59] Well, that would be the full impact feed, not just sewer water and the parks and

[1:09:02] all that yard. So you have to do 50% of the whole impact whatever impact.

[1:09:11] OK, so Any other questions from Jamie and Dennis? I, I got one question on that specific

[1:09:18] 50%. Those impacts are not being felt at that time. So I, I'm a little confused with

[1:09:26] what he developed it will pay 50% of those upfront because there's no impact on that

[1:09:32] because you're saying they haven't made connection yet and make connections yet.

[1:09:36] That being said though. It may be that there's work that needs to be done to accommodate

[1:09:43] the capacity before they get there. But can't you, you can make that part of the

[1:09:49] plot. We can condition the plot by a plaque, which you are doing in several cases.

[1:09:54] Yes, we absolutely are. It's part of, it's actually codifying our regulations. So

[1:10:00] the original one, it's, it's in the code is that

[1:10:03] the 50%, he no, he's just asking from a, from a principal standpoint, right? Um,

[1:10:09] what we will do though is We will in some projects we based on how big whatever is

[1:10:17] becoming, we have committed. Some of those impact fees that they pay towards reducing

[1:10:24] the cost of that project. So an example is Emanuel living, right? So

[1:10:32] they're gonna have to Upgrade 2000 ft of sewer line and build a

[1:10:40] generator for one of our pump stations with the backup generator and so we've committed

[1:10:46] some of the impact fees that they will pay. In that 50% towards that project we had

[1:10:52] identified they were things we were gonna have to do anyways already in our PER,

[1:10:57] um, so we will so and I don't wanna call it credit, but sometimes we will spend some

[1:11:02] of those on that same project, so. But I understand what you're saying that it doesn't

[1:11:09] me.

[1:11:11] The problem is if we don't get it up front, then at what point are we gonna get it

[1:11:16] and what the impact. You know, when the impact is felt. Uh, right, but that could

[1:11:22] be.

[1:11:24] That could be different for each project and we might not have we can't plan. On

[1:11:30] that short term period, right? I mean we need, we have to plan 5 years out, 6 years

[1:11:36] out, something like that. So knowing that those funds are in our account helps us

[1:11:41] make sure we can pay for those things going forward. That's, that's the only way

[1:11:45] I can say, OK, uh, yeah, it's already in. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna change it.

[1:11:49] I'm just hypothetical doesn't seem right. Yeah, the hypothetical that comes to mind

[1:11:54] is that um we have to anticipate whenever we, we approve a final flat, we have to

[1:12:00] have the capacity to serve that, whether it's done tomorrow or done 20 years from

[1:12:05] now, so, so that capacity is required even though that impact is not introduced

[1:12:13] to the system. We, we have an effect reserved it. Yes, so, so we're, we have to plan

[1:12:19] for it because we're not out there on a daily basis. Oh, they're adding two homes.

[1:12:24] They're just adding 2, I guess there's 3 homes right now that are going on that should

[1:12:27] make new ones and so we just assume that the capacity is there because it was because

[1:12:32] they've already paid, they've already paid for it and done it to begin with, but

[1:12:35] the capacity is there when we've got the lotscru version, right, yeah, so.

[1:12:41] There should be more impacts after the fact. That's why, yeah, so you're complaining

[1:12:45] about the sunset more than anything else. I mean, well, I, yeah, I don't think there

[1:12:48] should be a sunset for somebody's pay the impact that's all. And so, so what, what

[1:12:54] you're, if, if there's a 10 year sunset on the developer pay in half, you charge

[1:12:58] the full owner for 100% then that that's the way the regs are written. I'm not advocating

[1:13:03] ordinary or another. I'm just saying that's the way that that really, um, that's,

[1:13:09] that's the way it's written I can certainly understand that, uh, the waterline. That

[1:13:14] a big waterline you put in and then because you gotta put a bigger one in and you

[1:13:17] share you on. I don't know the reason why they would do that. The only thing I, my

[1:13:22] guess is would be it's like we've seen that's what some of our road projects, um,

[1:13:27] used to be able to, um. Do a block or, I don't know, just hypothetical number $200,000

[1:13:35] to repay this and now it's half a million dollars, you know, or whatever, our costs

[1:13:41] have gone up exponentially, maybe that's why I don't, I don't know. I'd have to go

[1:13:44] back and read the minutes and see why, but, so Sean. You and we put you

[1:13:52] to sleep or are you still there? No, I'm still here. OK, so are you clear about the

[1:13:59] changes in the conversation we had, uh, to the point that you think you can

[1:14:06] modify accordingly? Yes. OK, and I'll send a new version

[1:14:13] out to you. Again I've got some notes and we all do, so um we can,

[1:14:20] once we see what you come up with, we can always fire back and feedback in terms

[1:14:25] of uh. In terms of in terms of what you come up with, so, um, I, I guess what I'm

[1:14:32] thinking now is we give you some time to make those modifications and shoot us

[1:14:40] um an updated proposal, and then we get this group back together and look at that.

[1:14:47] And if we're close, if we're if we're in the in the ballpark of where we need to

[1:14:52] be, then maybe that time we'll schedule a public hearing the same night as the city

[1:14:58] commission meeting and See if we're ready to go forward because we talked about doing

[1:15:03] a public hearing. Yeah, so we talked about doing it different than the commission

[1:15:07] meeting, but the question I have is, do we want to try to get the parks and the fire

[1:15:12] it done before so it's all one thing yeah this we will, we'll try, but right now

[1:15:18] it's a great question. Right now, um, I've got Adam helping me on that part of the

[1:15:24] CIP to see if we can get it sucked in in time. If not, And I'd like to go ahead and

[1:15:30] move forward on the water and the sewer and get them cleaned up. Because they are

[1:15:35] waiting and like what are you gonna bring like we're gonna get there, we're gonna

[1:15:39] get there, um, and then, and then we'll come back to the, the parks and the fire

[1:15:45] probably if, if we can't get them done, probably after the budget because at that

[1:15:49] point we would have the CIP set. So, uh, quick question. I wanna get this real quick

[1:15:56] because otherwise we're not gonna have dinner. Um, we'll be here till like 9 time,

[1:16:00] but anyway, uh, uh. Is part of the legislative updates gonna take away our ability

[1:16:07] to implement this if we wait for the res and fired. Um, because they're making the

[1:16:12] ability you can increase this, is, is, is there something in those bills that all

[1:16:16] of a sudden and say now you can only go so much over what it is existing? I don't

[1:16:21] know. It seemed like there was with that. Yeah. So, so there might be a sense of

[1:16:26] urgency. There might be, but the but the other side of this is, I mean, Sean and

[1:16:32] I, we worked to try and make the Parks and fire come out, um, but there's just

[1:16:40] not enough set up yet around those expenditures to make me feel good about being

[1:16:46] able to defend that fee going forward. So that's why I'm saying I think we still

[1:16:51] have some good work to do yet before we're ready to calculate a very defensible fee

[1:16:59] with projects that are defensive. So what, so I understand this clearly, the city

[1:17:02] council votes would take it to city council for a vote. They're voting only on sewer

[1:17:07] and water and then you come back and change it and then and into parks, yeah. All

[1:17:14] right, so as I say, let's, let's accepting the fact that I don't have to go back

[1:17:20] to the doctor, which isn't just hopefully it's not gonna happen. Um, let's, let's

[1:17:24] see if we can set a date. We got Sean on the phone. We get to my calendar here.

[1:17:31] Yeah, really. Um, so Sean, we are on the 7th of April. Does this seem like something

[1:17:39] we can talk about again in April, or do we need to just wait until May or what what's

[1:17:44] your calendar like? I was gonna say the week of the 21st, but that's a mess for me.

[1:17:50] I'm gonna be out in Wyoming, um, unfortunately for work. What about that week of

[1:17:54] the 28th? OK, the 20 minutes look like for you guys. Uh, I could, I, I've gone

[1:18:02] to 30th. OK, and I'm gone the 20 years. No, no, I know it's get back. I'm back by

[1:18:08] now. No, I'll be fine. You're OK? Yeah. What if we say the 28th at 4 o'clock again,

[1:18:14] Sean? Yep, that works for me.

[1:18:20] Perfect. All right. That was great. That's a good day's work. Thanks, folks. Yeah,

[1:18:26] thanks everybody. Thanks, Sean, appreciate it. Yeah, take care everyone. All right,

[1:18:32] you, let's face that you said 4 o'clock on the.

Impact Fee Advisory Committee

Agenda

Transcript