[0:00] You're right.

[0:00] >> We welcome you to the Provo Municipal

[0:02] Council work meeting. It is March 24th,

[0:05] 2026 and it's 1:01 p.m.

[0:09] Uh we will do a roll call starting with

[0:12] Council Rachel Wiffle. Rachel Wiffle.

[0:14] Becky Bogden. Katrice MacKay. Brady

[0:16] Christensen. Jeff Whelock. Gary Garrett.

[0:20] All right. Um although this is a public

[0:22] meeting, only the presenters and those

[0:23] invited by the council may ask or speak.

[0:26] May speak or ask questions. Unless

[0:28] otherwise invited by the chair. Please

[0:29] wait to speak until called upon by the

[0:31] council chair. When speaking, please be

[0:33] sure to use the microphone so that the

[0:34] record is clear and those attending

[0:35] virtually can hear you.

[0:37] Please also be sure to limit side

[0:38] conversations as they interfere with the

[0:40] audio recording. If you need to have a

[0:42] side conversation, please step out of

[0:43] the work meeting room. It is proposed

[0:45] that we approve the following minutes.

[0:47] March 10th, 2026 work meeting. Are there

[0:50] any objections or requested changes?

[0:53] Just one change.

[0:55] Um

[0:56] I have a brother named Greg, so I'm very

[0:58] used to this, but it said Greg Garrett

[1:01] on the attendance, yeah.

[1:04] Oh, the minutes.

[1:05] It was actually me, not Greg.

[1:08] Is he a twin?

[1:09] Hm? Is he a twin? No.

[1:14] Seeing no, okay, we'll make those

[1:15] changes. I'll fix your name. Thank you.

[1:18] And we'll declare that the minutes are

[1:19] approved by unanimous consent.

[1:22] All right, our first item of business is

[1:23] a presentation regarding the proposed

[1:25] redevelopment of the Provo Town Center

[1:28] site into a mixed-use transit-oriented

[1:31] district. And this will be presented by

[1:33] Robert Schmidt, development director of

[1:34] PEG Companies, and Justin Long, project

[1:36] executive for Brixton.

[1:41] And we have about 60 minutes for this

[1:43] discussion.

[1:45] We'll try this. You're right to the

[1:47] front there.

[1:49] And if you have extra people who want to

[1:50] stay back here and talk for a bit, we

[1:52] can use

[1:54] Who's uh

[1:56] Sandy to Smith or Sides? Is it Sides? I

[1:59] have two sets of slides here. So let me

[2:01] know if this is the one you want to use.

[2:03] If you have not, I have another one.

[2:07] You should have a clicker.

[2:09] Yeah, I think all the other ones are

[2:11] just real quick. Okay, I'll do the other

[2:13] one

[2:14] and you can use that clicker up there

[2:15] and that will control the slides.

[2:20] Uh the other the other one was it.

[2:24] I got you only got these two.

[2:27] sets of slides.

[2:29] >> the one that's This is the one. Okay,

[2:30] good.

[2:32] All right, good afternoon. My name is

[2:33] Robert Schmidt, managing director of

[2:35] development of PEG Companies

[2:37] here in Provo. We're a Provo company,

[2:38] been here for in Provo for 15 years, but

[2:41] we were actually founded my first office

[2:43] building was in the Knight Block

[2:44] building on the third floor. So we've

[2:46] been here a while. Done several projects

[2:48] in town.

[2:49] You may be familiar with those.

[2:51] And we're happy to be here to talk about

[2:53] the Provo Town Center Mall project.

[2:55] We're partnered with Brixton Capital.

[2:57] Justin Long is here today with me and

[2:59] he'll be

[3:00] going through much of the presentation.

[3:03] Really what we want to talk about here

[3:04] today

[3:05] are uh

[3:06] process that we're in and the next steps

[3:09] that need to be taken to continue

[3:10] advancing this project to to bring it to

[3:13] a successful

[3:14] uh successful start

[3:17] and eventually successful completion.

[3:19] Um we've made application to the city

[3:22] for a rezone which involves a a text

[3:25] amendment to

[3:26] the ITOD zone

[3:28] to amend the general plan and to rezone

[3:33] the north end of the mall to an ITOD

[3:35] zone and we'll get into specifics about

[3:37] that. Uh attached to the the rezone

[3:39] request is a conceptual site plan.

[3:41] So today I think we'll start with

[3:43] Justin. He'll walk through the

[3:44] conceptual site plan. We'll kind of

[3:45] start at the site plan first and then

[3:47] we'll come back to some of the specifics

[3:50] uh, rezone request. Um in addition to

[3:52] the rezone,

[3:54] um, we also have a an HTARZ request in

[3:58] process with the city. The HTARZ is the

[4:00] Housing Transit Reinvestment Zone.

[4:03] It's a, uh, a TIF tool, basically tax

[4:06] increment financing tool, um, to help

[4:08] projects get over the hump, uh, of, you

[4:11] know, big projects that require major

[4:13] infrastructure to help them get over the

[4:15] hump to make them feasible. So, we'll

[4:16] talk about that, uh, a bit as well.

[4:18] We've got Ben,

[4:19] um,

[4:21] A. E. Davidson.

[4:21] >> What the A. Davidson Last name, sorry,

[4:23] Ben? Wilhelm. Wilhelm, sorry. I wanted

[4:25] to say Zeglin. Ben Wilhelm with the A.

[4:26] Davidson, uh, here with us as well. And,

[4:29] uh, he can talk through some of the

[4:30] HTARZ specifics as we get into that. We

[4:32] also have Kyle Goodat with Brixen

[4:34] Capital and, uh, Tyler Phelps with PEG.

[4:36] So, Justin.

[4:40] Thanks very much. We're, uh, pleased to

[4:42] be in front of you and presenting,

[4:44] excuse me, this concept and

[4:46] I think Robert, you introduced PEG and

[4:48] they've been a fantastic partner. We're

[4:49] thrilled to have them, um, on the

[4:51] project. They do extremely high-quality

[4:53] development on the multi-family side and

[4:55] we see that as a, obviously, a good,

[4:56] crucial component of the overall site

[4:58] plan here to making this successful and

[5:00] we're we're thrilled. They've been

[5:01] excellent partners to this and, you

[5:03] know, they'll continue to be, um, adding

[5:05] value through the process. So, um, as

[5:07] I'm sure most of you know,

[5:09] um,

[5:10] here's our

[5:11] mall here. It's

[5:13] not been as successful, I think, from a

[5:15] footfall standpoint as we'd like it to

[5:17] be in a number of years and we see that

[5:19] it needs to be reinvented. Uh, you know,

[5:22] this is not unique to Provo Town Center.

[5:24] That's kind of where I want to start.

[5:25] This is a secular shift that's happening

[5:27] across the country. Uh, in indoor malls

[5:30] are having challenges kind of no matter

[5:32] where they are. And the vast majority of

[5:34] those, uh, will need to become something

[5:37] else in the future. I saw an estimate

[5:38] the other day as high as 80% of current

[5:41] indoor malls will no longer be malls in

[5:44] 15 plus years. This is happening all

[5:46] around the world, excuse me, around the

[5:49] country.

[5:51] And the results of that have

[5:53] kind of been the tale of the tape here.

[5:56] On the left is the um

[5:59] annual sales tax receipts

[6:02] prior to today and on the right and red

[6:05] you can see kind of where we see things

[6:06] going without sort of re- reimagining

[6:08] what the future of the campus really

[6:10] needs to be. I mean, it's not a good

[6:12] asset currently for the community from a um placemaking

[6:17] standpoint, a business standpoint, or

[6:19] really from a revenue generation

[6:20] standpoint. So,

[6:22] we'd like to

[6:24] bring this into the 21st century.

[6:26] S- A lot of you all Kyle and I live this

[6:29] every day, so we have to deal with these

[6:31] challenges on a daily basis, but for

[6:33] those that aren't really familiar with

[6:34] what the challenges associated with

[6:35] malls are and why they're extremely hard

[6:38] to redevelop, and this is just sort of a

[6:40] high-level uh categorization of the

[6:42] things that create problems as we uh try

[6:45] to engage with the core partners and

[6:46] stakeholders in reimagining these kinds

[6:49] of assets.

[6:51] Typically, these land agreements are in

[6:53] this that govern how these assets work.

[6:55] So, things like parking and access and

[6:57] who can go where and who can build what

[6:59] where. Um those have to have um

[7:03] extremely detailed negotiations. In this

[7:05] case, it went on for many years uh on

[7:07] how to unlock the potential because the

[7:10] partners that are part of that agreement

[7:12] are often the key partners that are on

[7:13] the site, people like J.C. Penney's, um

[7:16] Cinemark, uh you know, now Target, all

[7:19] those kind of major players that are

[7:21] retailers have their own business needs

[7:23] that they're obviously concentrating on.

[7:24] They want to make sure those aren't

[7:25] negatively affected by whatever's going

[7:27] to happen going forward. So, that that's

[7:28] a major component that ties in with the

[7:30] anchor tenant rights just depending on

[7:31] whether they lease or actually own the

[7:33] ground. Uh but those are the same kinds

[7:34] of conversations. But the fact that

[7:36] there's typically multiple ownership

[7:38] groups, so when we when Brixton Capital

[7:40] acquired the property,

[7:42] the as some of you may or may not know,

[7:44] Dillard's actually used to own their

[7:45] building and the land around their

[7:47] building over time. And with the Target

[7:48] project, we were able to acquire their

[7:50] interest, which streamlined that

[7:52] approval process with them.

[7:54] But often that's a major hurdle, and it

[7:55] was in this case until we took that off

[7:58] the table with that acquisition.

[8:00] Uh cross parking cross access easements.

[8:02] And then, you know, the final one and

[8:03] not one that's insignificant is, you

[8:05] know, there's existing businesses that

[8:06] are in

[8:08] operating today. Whether it's Rue 21 or

[8:10] some of the temporary tenants, those are

[8:11] all obviously people that need to be uh

[8:14] talked to and figured out how to

[8:15] transition them to an alternative

[8:17] location, and in some cases relocate

[8:20] them into the uh the project and a

[8:22] different configuration. So, those are

[8:23] all challenges that we have to work through. This is a graphic that

[8:28] I think helps illustrate

[8:30] uh for Provo Town Center how these

[8:32] challenges manifest themselves. So,

[8:35] all of the boxes in red are the key

[8:36] anchor tenants that have to approve any

[8:39] of the components of any changes in

[8:42] development. So, you've got

[8:44] uh so, like I said, Cinemark, JCPenney,

[8:46] and Target. And then, in purple here,

[8:48] you each one of those parking lots

[8:51] has major controls that are dictated by

[8:55] either one or all, in some cases, of

[8:57] those anchor tenants. So, again, some of

[9:00] the challenges we have to work through

[9:01] as we

[9:02] try to create a new vision for what we

[9:04] believe the project should be going

[9:06] forward.

[9:08] So, just to hit real quick, I won't

[9:10] spend a lot of time on this, but as I

[9:11] mentioned, you know, we were able to

[9:12] acquire the Dillard's interest. We were

[9:14] able to bring Target into the project,

[9:16] which was a massive uh validation of the

[9:18] quality of the the real estate and the

[9:20] and a first domino for us to fall, and

[9:22] we think there's a lot of momentum there

[9:23] that we'd like to ride into the next uh

[9:26] phase of the project. And we see that as

[9:29] a before and after. On the right, you

[9:31] can see that it's an entirely enclosed

[9:33] indoor mall shifting to an

[9:35] exterior-oriented

[9:37] mixed-use walkable environment is the

[9:40] vision.

[9:42] So, I'd like to do play our video. Yeah,

[9:45] I think it Yeah, so Okay.

[9:50] I was wondering what this video was.

[9:52] It's actually really cool.

[9:55] So, let the video play. It's not, you

[9:57] know, it's not perfect. It was done a

[9:58] little while ago for some details um

[10:02] change in the plans, but it overall

[10:04] gives you a really good sense of what

[10:06] the walkable mixed-use um higher density

[10:09] vision for the project uh is intended to

[10:11] be.

[10:27] If we're able to kill this, nobody's

[10:29] killing it.

[10:34] Doesn't get any better.

[10:35] Um Wait, I'll talk about the buildings.

[10:39] So, the intent the intent here is to

[10:42] bring the vehicles and and the customers

[10:45] into the center of the new plaza

[10:48] and create a lot of energy as the nexus

[10:50] there around which everything can can

[10:53] pivot. On the left or in front of us, I

[10:55] should say, is the reconfigured mall.

[10:58] It's important to note that the

[10:59] buildings that you see right here are

[11:00] actually part of the malls. So, we're

[11:02] taking the existing mall structure and

[11:03] we're turning it reorienting it inside

[11:06] out. So, we're not just tearing

[11:08] something down and building something

[11:09] new. We're doing our best to try to use

[11:10] the existing infrastructure as best we

[11:12] can to facilitate uh this new vision.

[11:16] It's really centered around amenity-rich

[11:18] plaza area. We want to bring vehicles in

[11:21] and through and allow for convenient

[11:22] access and parking. We've got bicycle

[11:25] lanes that are designed in here that

[11:26] we'll see and highlight a little bit

[11:28] later. Um

[11:30] we've narrowed the scope of the retail,

[11:32] the small shop retail as you can see

[11:34] here everything on the lower level is

[11:36] intended to be that retail. What do you

[11:39] mean? Just smaller stores as opposed to

[11:41] big anchor stores? Yeah, just we've

[11:43] reduced the amount of small shop retail

[11:45] square footage. So today, we'll get to

[11:47] this in a minute. We have there's a

[11:49] tremendous amount of small shop retail

[11:51] interior facing space. And the scale was

[11:55] just unsustainable in today's world like

[11:57] from a lease-ability I mean it's

[11:58] standpoint. So we've reduced that to

[12:01] what we believe is productive leasable

[12:04] long-term sustainable space. It's all

[12:06] centered around an environment that

[12:07] people are actually going to want to

[12:08] spend time

[12:16] So you can pause it right there for a

[12:18] second.

[12:19] That's okay. I I've got a That's okay.

[12:20] I've got a slide in my space. Sure.

[12:24] So just jumping into the site plan

[12:26] because you can't see all the little

[12:27] details just through one fly-through but

[12:30] I'll be able to point to the screen.

[12:33] Each touch round screen.

[12:35] Touch.

[12:38] Oh yeah, you can you can paint on the

[12:40] screen with your finger. Oh perfect.

[12:42] Okay. So this if you remember this is a

[12:45] two-level mall. So we're looking at the

[12:47] lower level plan right now.

[12:49] So the food court entrance would be

[12:51] somewhere around here today just to

[12:52] orient you.

[12:54] There you go.

[12:55] So

[12:56] all the anchors are planned the same

[12:58] place.

[12:59] We demolish what's currently the Sears

[13:02] or the old Sears box goes away to make

[13:04] way for a part of the multi-family as

[13:07] well as the new road configuration

[13:09] coming in and through it.

[13:11] Create this amenity plaza which we'll

[13:13] get to some of the details of in a

[13:14] minute. Surrounded by

[13:17] smaller shop oriented retail.

[13:20] And the bulk of what's now the interior

[13:23] wall on the lower level if you'll recall

[13:25] Cinemark today has parking underneath

[13:28] it. So, it's covered parking. The intent

[13:30] is that you would extend that covered

[13:32] parking into what's today part of the

[13:34] interior mall to just provide more

[13:36] convenient covered parking. It's

[13:38] proximate to both the JCPenney's,

[13:40] Cinemark, as well as the spot of the

[13:42] It's going to be like a really nice

[13:43] high-quality parking for people. It'll

[13:45] get used multiple times a day.

[13:47] And then we also have a retailer front

[13:50] entrance here

[13:51] as well as on the lower level of Target.

[13:54] So, you're hoping to have another big

[13:56] box retailer there? Is that what that's

[13:58] for? Yes.

[13:59] so

[14:00] >> to the interior parking is through the

[14:02] existing Cinemark parking? That's right.

[14:04] So, you would be driving in the way of

[14:05] existing parking and you would continue

[14:06] down here. You won't even realize it's

[14:08] separate parking.

[14:09] >> Okay, so the only way you get into it is

[14:11] from the mall. That's correct. Yes.

[14:15] So,

[14:15] >> From the west. From the west. From the west. Yes,

[14:18] sir. I'm yes. But yes, the I knew it

[14:20] would be a retailer here, the lower

[14:23] level of Target's right here where the

[14:25] back house is.

[14:26] And then there's two more opportunities.

[14:28] Again, facing this way is the entrance

[14:30] for multiple, we'll call box retailers.

[14:33] >> Oh, there is? Yes. I thought you had

[14:35] like warehouse stuff there. So, only

[14:37] about a third of this lower level of

[14:38] what used to be Dillard's

[14:40] is taken up by a Target's logistics.

[14:43] Okay.

[14:43] >> There's another 70-ish thousand square

[14:45] feet that there's opportunity for more

[14:47] retail.

[14:47] >> Oh, good. Yes.

[14:52] Now, are have you been talking to

[14:53] anyone? Like are there any names on the

[14:55] table? We certainly have, but I I'll

[14:58] tell you from personal experience in

[14:59] these conversations, the first question

[15:01] they ask is, "What's happening with the

[15:03] rest of the mall?"

[15:04] Cuz they're not willing to go into their

[15:06] committee and stand in front of their

[15:07] executives and say, "Yeah, we should

[15:08] really go here, but yeah, we know we're

[15:10] next to a dead mall and there's no real

[15:12] plan for it."

[15:13] So, we've had a lot of interest and we

[15:14] think we've shown this, you know,

[15:18] quietly to some folks and said, "Hey, is

[15:19] this interesting to you?" And every one

[15:20] of them says, "Yeah, this is great. It's

[15:22] the type of thing we would to sign up

[15:23] for, but let us know when you're ready

[15:25] to go."

[15:28] So, moving to the second level, uh

[15:30] this is the entrance to the parking

[15:32] garage just to orient you again on which

[15:33] level we're on. So, second level target

[15:35] entrance is here. This is shown as this

[15:37] is basically commercial space. It's a

[15:38] lighter blue. It could really be a mix

[15:40] of a variety of commercial uses. We've

[15:42] talked about some retail. We talked

[15:44] about um

[15:45] uh some like higher density office.

[15:48] We've talked about uh medical offices.

[15:49] There's a variety of different

[15:50] commercial level uses that works for in

[15:52] here. And you can see the aqua color is

[15:55] more of the I'll call it co-working or

[15:57] smaller density um office suites on the

[16:00] second level just because in most places

[16:03] second level retail struggles pretty

[16:04] significantly. So, doing a more

[16:06] sustainable use on that second level is the vision we see.

[16:09] Uh another thing to point out here is

[16:12] so, the entrance that you walk in today

[16:15] to on the second level on that upper

[16:16] level parking, walk in the second level

[16:19] mall entrance here, you walk into the

[16:21] front of Cinemark there.

[16:23] That same path of travel will basically

[16:25] still be intact. This parking will allow

[16:28] for entrance right through there. Can I

[16:30] clarify here? Can I clear that? I can

[16:32] clear it for you. Thank you.

[16:35] Oh.

[16:36] So, you see a little hallway there for

[16:38] lack of better term. It's it's really a

[16:40] entrance.

[16:41] Um and we're going to reconfigure where

[16:42] the lobby actually is. It will be pulled

[16:44] in a little bit. You'll essentially, if

[16:46] you're a customer for Cinemark, you'll

[16:47] take the same path of travel you have

[16:49] been.

[16:51] But you'll be

[16:54] It's really the first level the second

[16:56] level you're coming in at though, right?

[16:58] That's right. So, if you park So, if you

[16:59] park here, this is second level. Yeah,

[17:02] it's upper. If you come in and park

[17:04] under the Cinemark, you just go up these

[17:06] escalators there right there and be at

[17:08] their front entrance.

[17:09] So, the escalators are staying.

[17:12] Uh there will be escalators. They won't

[17:13] be the same ones, but yes, there will be

[17:15] escalators. Yes. They'll be positioned.

[17:17] So that darker blue section there, you

[17:20] said it's going to be like co-shared

[17:21] office space on the second Yeah,

[17:22] co-working, smaller office, yes. And

[17:24] that's the second level. That's correct.

[17:26] So when I walk in and go see a movie, I

[17:29] also see that co-working shared space as

[17:31] well, right? In the hallway? Uh if you

[17:33] keep walking, there's a there's a

[17:35] exterior pathway here. So if you kept

[17:38] walking past the entrance for the

[17:40] You could.

[17:42] But there can be like no indoor of

[17:45] connection, is what you're saying.

[17:47] The Cinemark entrance is going to be a

[17:49] Cinemark entrance. That's correct.

[17:51] And then the co-working entrance is

[17:52] going to be a co-working entrance. Then

[17:54] you're going to have a walking path that

[17:55] also for the light rail.

[17:57] Yeah, and

[17:58] so right here we would get into the

[18:00] hotel plan, but right here, that's where

[18:02] the elevator and the stair core is to

[18:05] get from

[18:08] this level here

[18:10] up.

[18:11] So you were parking, let's say, in that

[18:13] parking covered parking area, you could

[18:15] walk right there, here's the elevator.

[18:17] Remind me again what that orange is

[18:18] underneath the dark blue.

[18:20] I'm sorry? Remind me again what that

[18:21] orange is on the first level. Okay.

[18:24] Uh retail.

[18:25] Okay, so you have three retail

[18:26] >> box retail. Small box retail that will

[18:29] have an elevator and an escalator that

[18:30] goes up to the second floor with the

[18:32] co-working space.

[18:33] >> So this is all exterior facing around

[18:34] the plaza. There's a small lobby here

[18:37] that provides covered

[18:39] actually access between the plaza, the

[18:42] entrance to J.C. Penney's, and this

[18:43] extended covered parking area.

[18:46] So all that feeds into this lobby, and

[18:48] in that lobby is where that elevator

[18:50] would be.

[18:54] So on the second back to the second

[18:56] level.

[18:58] So that blue is all external facing.

[19:01] Second level. Yes. Yeah, it's a little

[19:03] hard to see. I can run We can run the

[19:05] video back, and you'll see that there's

[19:06] a covered walkway just in front of that.

[19:08] >> that. That was nice. So it is covered

[19:10] >> That's correct. on the walkway.

[19:11] >> So all any of those entrances will just

[19:12] open up to that covered walkway there.

[19:14] And how many levels are there all

[19:16] together? Two.

[19:17] There's just two levels, period.

[19:19] Correct.

[19:20] And Hazel keeps both of those

[19:21] >> Well, on the commercial side, the

[19:23] residential is

[19:25] Uh five, right? Oh, yeah, we're just

[19:27] talking about the mall. Yeah, just just

[19:29] on the commercial side, yeah.

[19:31] And Hazel still has the two levels.

[19:33] That's correct.

[19:36] Yeah, so other than To answer that

[19:38] question, JCPenney's basically nothing

[19:40] changes about their store itself. We'll make sure to reorient exactly how

[19:44] it is.

[19:45] Okay, including

[19:46] >> Lobby area.

[19:47] Including all the stores, restaurants,

[19:49] entertainment, how many

[19:53] businesses were you going to have add?

[19:55] That's a tough question to answer. You

[19:56] don't have a number?

[19:58] Well,

[19:59] because it depends on the size of what

[20:00] you're

[20:01] >> on the size, right? You could have one

[20:02] really

[20:02] >> So, you have square footage. Yeah, I'll

[20:04] go to This will answer that question

[20:06] later.

[20:07] So, here is the square footage today.

[20:09] Almost a million square feet. That

[20:11] includes Sears, includes all the

[20:13] interior malls that are really not

[20:14] non-productive space, right? But at the

[20:16] end, so the anchors are going to say,

[20:19] "We're adding this is the 110,000 square

[20:20] feet you're asking before about box

[20:22] retail."

[20:23] Uh 42,000 square feet of retail, another

[20:26] 100,000 square feet of commercial space,

[20:27] and then about 20,000 in that

[20:29] co-working. So, at the end of the day,

[20:31] we're reducing the overall square

[20:33] footage by about 300,000, but we're

[20:34] massively increasing the product

[20:36] productivity of everything that's left,

[20:38] right? So, we're getting rid of all that

[20:40] interior mall space that's been very

[20:42] difficult to to fill and it's just too

[20:45] much for the ecosystem of retail that

[20:47] exists today. Same with Sears, and we're

[20:49] converting it to something that is

[20:50] mixed-use, walkable, and very productive

[20:53] from a a retail standpoint and a

[20:54] commercial use standpoint.

[20:56] So, your existing anchors, you're

[20:58] decreasing a ton.

[21:01] Considering the Cinemark was 781.

[21:04] That's correct. That That's correct.

[21:06] Okay.

[21:07] Yeah, there I think it's 81. Okay.

[21:11] Like, wait a minute.

[21:13] Yeah, so this the existing anchors

[21:16] basically the only thing going away from

[21:17] an anchor square footage standpoint is

[21:19] Sears, which no longer is operating

[21:21] anyway. So.

[21:24] And where you got Dillard's, is that

[21:25] actually Target now? That's Well, yeah,

[21:28] that represents both square footage both

[21:30] levels of Dillard's. I'm sorry, both

[21:32] levels of Dillard's, but 130,000 of that

[21:35] is already backfilled with Target.

[21:42] Any other quick questions about that

[21:44] one?

[21:48] So, one thing I want to highlight and

[21:49] this this came up a couple different

[21:51] times through various conversations was

[21:53] it's hard to kind of imagine scale

[21:56] of of what we're talking about here from

[21:57] a plaza standpoint. So, we wanted to

[22:00] show this is 1.7 acres of total space.

[22:03] So, in a scenario where

[22:05] you know, we have this flexible

[22:07] community space that you could shut down

[22:08] from time to time, do farmers markets,

[22:09] or any sort of events similar to what

[22:11] the mall does today. This is a very

[22:14] substantial space. It's actually

[22:17] significantly bigger than the lawn space

[22:20] that's on the Is that north side of

[22:22] Orem? Uh of University Mall. And so, we

[22:27] just wanted to kind of show that what

[22:28] we're we're talking about here is not

[22:29] just some kind of throwaway. It's a

[22:31] plaza that sits in the in the you know,

[22:33] middle of this, but it's not really a

[22:34] dynamic space for people to to

[22:36] congregate in. This is a really

[22:37] substantive space here that can be used

[22:40] for these kind of events, but also when

[22:42] they're not Oh, here it is. So, 95,000

[22:45] versus 70,000 is is the direct

[22:47] >> backwards, right? That picture.

[22:50] Which one?

[22:51] Oh.

[22:53] No, that one's right. You had a before

[22:54] and after picture in your slides that

[22:55] were wrong or backwards. Oh.

[22:58] But,

[22:59] sorry. Go ahead.

[23:00] So, again, that 1.7 on the left and then

[23:04] it's What is that? An acre and

[23:07] third or fourth

[23:09] uh on the right. And

[23:10] >> Councilor Whipple has a question. Oh,

[23:12] sure. So,

[23:13] I I like that it's a larger space, but

[23:16] it's just

[23:18] really confusing to me that your main

[23:21] road of path goes right through that.

[23:24] So, if you are doing events, people

[23:27] like you're you're closing off that that

[23:29] roundabout, but that's the main way to

[23:31] get up to the north where your parking

[23:33] is and everything else.

[23:34] >> To the west. Like what? Oh, sorry, west.

[23:37] Oh my gosh, thank you, Becky. But

[23:41] You know how that roundabout works?

[23:42] >> It's just

[23:45] it's hard for me to make sense of having

[23:48] the roundabout as like the core of the

[23:52] plaza. Is it because you feel like you

[23:53] need to have cars driving by there most

[23:55] of the rest of the time to drive traffic

[23:57] or

[23:58] >> Yeah, retail will not be successful in

[24:00] today's environment unless we bring the

[24:02] cars into the

[24:04] >> even like go directly to the parking lot

[24:07] from that roundabout. Like they're still

[24:08] going up and around.

[24:10] >> They want to see it. They want to drive

[24:11] around and see what's there. They Yeah.

[24:13] Yep. Okay. Yeah, I mean,

[24:15] it's an unfortunate reality that

[24:17] retailers when they when they look at a

[24:18] site plan, they say, "Where's my

[24:20] visibility? Where's my access? Where's the proximate parking?" That's

[24:23] what they look at.

[24:24] >> to have the visibility of driving by

[24:26] separate from the access of you can't

[24:29] just get to the parking lot from that

[24:31] visible drive.

[24:32] >> Yes, and for a couple different reasons.

[24:34] Uh

[24:39] I do think it's silly that we have

[24:41] amenities in the middle of the

[24:43] roundabout, though.

[24:45] Oh, retail In the circle. That looks

[24:46] ridiculous.

[24:48] Yeah, I agree with you. That's That's

[24:50] something that's not

[24:52] That's why it's not really highlighted

[24:53] in the

[24:54] That's why it's not That's why it's not

[24:55] really It's kind of an old design.

[24:57] But to to answer to answer the question

[25:01] So I think part of the answer is the way

[25:02] that the phasing on the multi-family

[25:04] works.

[25:05] So the phasing is these top phases over

[25:08] here are anticipated to be phase one.

[25:10] And then these phases down here will be

[25:11] two or two or three, whatever it ends up

[25:13] being broken out. These middle phases

[25:15] are anticipated to be the last phase.

[25:17] And the reason for that is we want to

[25:19] provide at least from all this parking

[25:21] remains surface parking until the next

[25:24] phase of multi-family development comes

[25:26] along and gets converted. That allows

[25:28] for a very long time frame for people to

[25:32] uh

[25:32] one sort of learn what the new routes

[25:35] are, where the stores are, what their

[25:36] path travel is, where they should park,

[25:39] um while they still have all this

[25:41] you know, unused surface parking that

[25:43] they can rely on to park here and come

[25:46] to these stores. Uh the second thing is

[25:49] um

[25:50] the question was access, why is there

[25:52] access and then um parking severance,

[25:54] all right?

[25:56] Yeah, because that you can't just turn

[25:59] and get into the parking structure

[26:00] there.

[26:01] Right. So there will So there will be

[26:03] parking available in this area for many, years. And people will learn first

[26:09] of this becomes really prime parking

[26:11] here. This is all very prime parking

[26:13] here. This is prime parking here. So

[26:15] there will remain a lot of parking

[26:17] options for people and as they continue

[26:19] to use the the site, they'll continue to

[26:22] you know, navigate and learn where they

[26:23] prefer to park.

[26:24] already prime. Like it's full every

[26:26] weekend with people here. Yeah.

[26:32] I I just it it still feels odd to me

[26:34] that anytime you have an event, you

[26:37] would be closing down that roundabout

[26:39] because it really does look like the

[26:40] main

[26:42] I'll tell you that that's that's kind of

[26:44] a um

[26:45] best practice is frankly for some of the

[26:47] best retail in the country. Right? Think

[26:50] of Friendly Center Town Center as one

[26:51] where we used to have a slide that we

[26:52] just didn't include today.

[26:54] It shuts down their main entrance. They

[26:56] frankly have a lot more

[26:58] um

[26:59] artificial congestion cuz they don't

[27:01] have these alternate you know, paths of

[27:03] travel that we necessarily have here.

[27:05] Um Kierland Commons is another one that

[27:07] does it commonly. They They shut down,

[27:09] you know, their center area for events

[27:11] all the time, which is the main kind of

[27:12] thoroughfare to get people, but they

[27:14] have an opportunity for people to get

[27:15] around again, similar to this, a kind of

[27:17] an alternative route to go around.

[27:19] Project leads to the various parking

[27:20] areas. So, I mean, it it works well and I would also say that, you know,

[27:24] it's not like events are happening

[27:27] daily or anything of it. We're really

[27:28] talking about community events that

[27:30] happen,

[27:31] you know, on occasion. Yeah. Well, cuz

[27:33] the Forum one, they have events there at

[27:35] least once a month

[27:37] at their their little park. So, that

[27:39] would be pretty frequent road closures

[27:41] for you. They don't have to close down

[27:43] their roads to have events at that

[27:46] space.

[27:47] >> honestly, we we looked at their project

[27:49] on a couple different fronts when we

[27:50] were evaluating

[27:52] design options for this. Couple things

[27:54] I'll say with respect to that. One was

[27:56] we didn't think we didn't like how they

[27:58] integrated or didn't really integrate

[28:00] their multi-family with the commercial.

[28:02] And we felt like you just had to walk

[28:03] across parking lots to get to it.

[28:06] So, we wanted to make sure that this was

[28:07] much more integrated into the overall

[28:10] project. So, that was one thing.

[28:11] Um

[28:12] and then the second thing is we didn't

[28:14] want a empty restaurant syndrome.

[28:17] So, when you have a big open space like

[28:19] the one that they have when it's not

[28:20] being programmed, which Cal and I have

[28:22] been up there mostly when it's not being

[28:23] programmed, it looks like, "Well,

[28:27] why should we go hang out there cuz

[28:28] there's really nothing going on?"

[28:29] So, we wanted to make sure that we broke

[28:31] this down in in from a design standpoint

[28:33] in in a way that looked active and

[28:35] vibrant and inviting even when it wasn't

[28:37] being used for those kinds of events.

[28:40] I I think you're still I agree with a

[28:42] lot of what what Rachel's saying. You're

[28:44] still having

[28:46] uh the same problem with I mean, it's a

[28:47] little better, but uh or where you have

[28:49] all your housing separated by the main

[28:51] thoroughfare of the entire project.

[28:53] Like, to me, that just seems very odd

[28:55] and not not optimal.

[28:59] Yeah, I mean, it definitely is separate.

[29:01] I don't know if you have an opinion

[29:02] about that you want to voice, but um

[29:04] It's It's like It's like that I'm a

[29:06] family and I want to go to the mall.

[29:08] Great. Okay, oh, bummer. Now I have to

[29:09] cross

[29:12] a very busy street to get there, and you

[29:14] know, it's not super safe to let my kids

[29:17] you know, wander to H&M, which seems

[29:19] like kind of contrary to the thesis of

[29:21] like, let's put a bunch of families

[29:23] right next to the mall so they can use

[29:23] the mall.

[29:25] And then the main thoroughfare separates

[29:26] the two. I mean, my our take on

[29:28] that access is that it's a it's a very

[29:30] low-speed It was a You know, it would be

[29:32] a lot nicer. Which I think it's a very

[29:33] low-speed access with the roundabout

[29:35] traffic with the traffic calming in

[29:36] there. It's very low-speed. It's 10 to

[29:38] 15

[29:39] um, you know, it'll feel more like a small drive versus a thoroughfare. I

[29:45] mean, the intent is to move cars

[29:48] through, but not move them through fast.

[29:50] So, you know, we're We actually feel

[29:52] like the roundabout and the ability to

[29:54] multi-use program it gives a lot of

[29:57] flexibility and a lot of

[29:59] vibrancy to the area. And and given that

[30:02] there are multiple points of

[30:05] um, you know, circulation to go around

[30:08] uh that are easily navigated, that yeah,

[30:11] it gives a a strong possibility of having a lot of life. I mean, we're

[30:15] trying to bring a lot of life to the

[30:17] area, all right? We don't want We don't want it to be just a

[30:21] traffic lane. Like, we want to be able

[30:22] to really make it a an amenity.

[30:25] And the challenge we were faced with is,

[30:27] you know, those retail partners I was

[30:28] mentioning, the anchors that we had to

[30:29] negotiate with, they would not approve a

[30:31] project that didn't have, you know, what

[30:33] they felt like was adequate access in

[30:35] and through the project cuz you're cuz

[30:37] we're I mean, the core of what we're

[30:38] doing from our circulation standpoint is

[30:41] right now you're forced to go around the

[30:42] ring right? You're forced to get as far

[30:44] away from a project as you possibly can

[30:45] or to navigate and then you come into

[30:47] the project, decide where to park, get

[30:48] out of your car, walk,

[30:50] then do it all over again, right? So,

[30:52] we're trying to invite them to come in

[30:54] and through and so when we move from

[30:57] and moving from here to here with that

[30:59] vehicle access,

[31:00] that's critical for these guys to

[31:03] approve it. And so then we were faced

[31:04] with the challenge of our Well, how do

[31:05] we allow cars to come through here in a

[31:07] way that feels safe, feels inviting, and

[31:10] still has amenity base around it. And we've looked at many projects around

[31:13] the country that did it successfully and

[31:15] we think incorporate a lot of the

[31:16] lessons learned. So,

[31:22] Anything else before I move on to some

[31:24] of the amenity slides?

[31:27] Okay, so just two levels in the mall.

[31:29] Now you're going to go over the

[31:30] amenities. Yes. Okay.

[31:39] So, just your bike access. As I

[31:40] mentioned, the one thing that we were

[31:43] concerned about it, we didn't want this

[31:44] to feel cavernous. We didn't want it to

[31:46] feel empty when it wasn't being used.

[31:48] And so we tried to imagine how can we

[31:50] break this down into a more human scale.

[31:53] And then a different amenity area, this

[31:55] one being part of the main one here. The

[31:57] vision to be more of a larger gathering

[31:59] area that's right outside that main

[32:01] entry uh to what we'll call the lobby

[32:04] for now is kind of at the core of where

[32:06] this retail nexus

[32:07] starts.

[32:10] In addition to that, we wanted to

[32:11] provide,

[32:12] you know, a little bit more of a focused

[32:14] amenity area which is right outside of

[32:16] here.

[32:17] This is the escalators I was mentioning

[32:18] before that go up to uh Cinemark. If you

[32:20] walk through there, that's the covered

[32:22] parking that exists today.

[32:24] Under Cinemark, we want to provide a a

[32:26] different, more evening-oriented,

[32:28] probably a little bit more

[32:29] adult-oriented gathering environment

[32:31] that played well with the entertainment

[32:32] component and the food and beverage that

[32:34] we envision being a large component of

[32:35] the merchandise mix here. Then,

[32:37] obviously, we wanted to provide a safe

[32:39] environment for families that's also

[32:41] maybe not as mixed in with everything

[32:43] else this week right on kind of the

[32:45] opposite area outside of this top bay.

[32:47] You know, whether it's proper fountains

[32:49] or um you know, holiday-related

[32:51] amenities, we see that happening a

[32:53] little bit more of a an I won't say

[32:55] isolated, but more of a dedicated family

[32:56] area where we can create some of those

[32:58] safety

[32:59] uh design features and make sure that it

[33:01] feels like people uh do feel safe to let

[33:04] their kids come down there and hang out

[33:05] and and aren't worried about their

[33:07] safety either from a vehicular

[33:08] standpoint or or otherwise. So,

[33:12] uh here's a couple of the things that

[33:13] we've highlighted that other projects

[33:15] have done well, whether it's these

[33:16] hardscape barriers that are also benches

[33:18] that allow for that hard barrier so that

[33:20] you create that you know, designed areas

[33:22] where people can flow, you know, through

[33:24] this so so the kids aren't just running

[33:27] out into the street or something like

[33:28] that. Um obviously, bollards are are

[33:30] important in that. We've also seen

[33:32] landscaping used really well. So, we're

[33:33] trying to incorporate each of those

[33:34] design elements into the overall plaza

[33:37] design to maximize the quality of the

[33:40] design, but also make it feel safe.

[33:45] And finally, here's here's the same

[33:47] types of things. Um

[33:49] I'm blanking on the name of this

[33:50] project. What's this project? One of

[33:52] North It's

[33:54] Is it Layton Riverdale? Or

[33:57] Station Park and Station

[33:58] >> Thank you.

[33:59] Um so, we we stole from them

[34:01] cuz we thought what they did was really

[34:02] good.

[34:05] For some reason, I thought you had done

[34:06] that project. What malls have you done?

[34:09] Me personally or Brixton Capital?

[34:11] Brixton.

[34:12] did uh we're working on Everett

[34:14] Mall right now, which is a Topgolf

[34:15] anchored project that's turning from a

[34:17] con- traditional mall into a likely a

[34:20] mixed-use entertainment style.

[34:22] Uh right now, uh Trader Joe's is open,

[34:25] Ulta's open, Topgolf's announced, but

[34:27] that's in process. Is this Everett,

[34:29] Washington?

[34:29] >> Everett Washington, yes.

[34:31] Uh and then we did Stockton, California,

[34:33] which was a conversion of a mall

[34:35] into So, we did um grocery, we did some

[34:39] um larger soft goods uh retailers there,

[34:41] and then we also added a climate In that

[34:43] particular case, we did climate

[34:44] controlled storage as a component in the

[34:45] back and sort of a non-retail space. So,

[34:48] those are the ones that Brixmor has

[34:49] done. I mean, you go through a bigger

[34:51] laundry list of the ones I've personally

[34:52] worked on, But, you're with Brixmor now.

[34:55] >> That's correct.

[34:57] Does those relationships help you in

[34:59] future projects? Like your relationship

[35:01] with Topgolf, but these relationships,

[35:03] you're able to use those and

[35:05] you find

[35:05] >> I mean, obviously it has to meet their

[35:06] business need. We obviously talk to each

[35:08] of those partners about all all of our

[35:10] opportunities as they come along. Um

[35:14] But, yeah. I mean, relationships help

[35:15] all the time. I mean, Target Target's

[35:17] obviously a was a big relationship we

[35:19] cultivated over a long time and it ended

[35:21] up, you know, culminating. We talked to

[35:22] our relationships folks that have done

[35:24] other box deals about this, and I

[35:26] mentioned I we had talked to a couple of

[35:28] those retailers before, and those are

[35:29] the type of conversations we're having

[35:31] all the time, and

[35:32] um

[35:33] would love to be in a position to be

[35:34] able to

[35:36] be far enough along the process that

[35:38] they have confidence that the vision

[35:39] that we're willing to talk to them about

[35:41] is is going to be effectuated.

[35:46] So, a couple of detail things here

[35:47] before I hand it back over Robert, but

[35:49] you know, one thing that is probably not

[35:51] quite as obvious is the amount of

[35:53] infrastructure that's required to be

[35:55] reworked or demolished

[35:57] in order to facilitate the vision that

[35:59] we're talking about here. So, if you

[36:00] look on the right-hand side, the red

[36:03] hatch thing, that's today that's all

[36:05] parking lot, and it's a bit of a

[36:07] spaghetti junction of subgrade

[36:09] utilities, whether it's storm water

[36:11] or water and all the various, you know,

[36:13] subgrade infrastructure that has to be

[36:14] reworked in order to make a way for all

[36:16] the buildings to eventually um So,

[36:18] essentially, what has to happen is this

[36:20] trunk lines that are scattered kind of

[36:22] all around need to be rerouted through

[36:24] this new, I'll call it regular, even

[36:25] some of the regular

[36:27] So, all that has to be done as part of

[36:29] the initial

[36:31] uh lift of the project and as you can

[36:32] imagine that's that's very expensive. In

[36:34] addition to that, we've got this blue

[36:36] area here which is the highly monetized

[36:38] plaza that we mentioned and then finally

[36:41] you've got all the components of the

[36:42] actual mall itself which to redevelop is fairly extraordinary um

[36:47] in most cases and this is no no

[36:49] exception.

[36:51] So, to help you guys understand the work

[36:54] that has been done so far to understand

[36:56] these details, we've gone fairly deep at

[36:59] a conceptual level I call it maybe even

[37:01] design development level

[37:03] uh of work here from an architecture

[37:05] standpoint and you can see the various

[37:07] details, elevations. We've got a whole

[37:09] package that we put together to help our

[37:11] general contractors give us pricing so

[37:13] we understand what these challenges

[37:15] actually are

[37:16] um on a kind of high level of what what

[37:18] it's going to take from an

[37:19] infrastructure level and from a project

[37:20] level in order to effectively the

[37:22] vision. So, I say that just to say

[37:26] we're not just coming to you with a

[37:27] grandiose idea with no real

[37:29] understanding what it's going to take in

[37:30] order to build something like this.

[37:31] We've done a lot of the homework and

[37:33] bring this to you with the confidence

[37:36] that we can actually do what we have on

[37:38] the page.

[37:40] So, with that I'll turn over Robert

[37:41] who's going to So, really quick I like

[37:42] how you have the covered area in front

[37:45] of the stores. What percentage

[37:47] of the um storefronts are covered?

[37:52] They're all I think they're almost all

[37:54] covered. I would say something the only

[37:55] exception would be

[38:03] And these half bays may have just

[38:05] minimal coat covering like little

[38:07] entrance covers, but

[38:09] there's walkways in front of all of

[38:10] these

[38:12] along this side and then of course these

[38:14] retailers will just have their typical

[38:16] you know, whoever it is of TJ Maxx or

[38:19] whatever entry would be difficult.

[38:28] All right. I'm just going to take a

[38:29] minute and walk through HTRZs and um

[38:34] and that process. So, several years ago

[38:35] the city of Utah created the Housing and

[38:37] Transit Reinvestment Zone Act

[38:39] legislatively.

[38:40] And this act

[38:42] allows cities to propose

[38:45] an HTRZ zone to the state and it has to

[38:48] be within a certain radius of either

[38:50] heavy rail, FrontRunner,

[38:52] light rail, or bus rapid transit. In

[38:54] this case, we have a unique situation

[38:55] where we're within

[38:57] a radius of both FrontRunner and the UVX

[38:59] line.

[39:00] Um and what what the HTRZ does is it

[39:03] enables a portion of incremental tax

[39:05] revenue

[39:06] be captured over a period of time to

[39:08] support the development and the

[39:10] extraordinary development costs.

[39:12] Um it does require

[39:14] mixed-use housing, at least 15 50

[39:17] housing units to the acre, and a minimum

[39:19] of 12% affordable. The slide says 10% is

[39:22] a typo. 9% affordable at the 80% AMI

[39:26] level and 3% affordable at 60% AMI

[39:30] level. So, is that

[39:32] Go ahead. Is that 50 units

[39:35] per 23 acres

[39:37] or just for the housing acres? It is the

[39:40] housing within the zone. So, whatever

[39:42] acreage is is within the zone requires a

[39:44] minimum density of 50 units to the acre

[39:46] within the zone.

[39:48] And about the AMI, is that based on our

[39:51] county, state, or city AMI?

[39:54] I believe it's county, but we've got Ben

[39:55] here for the

[39:57] Yeah.

[39:58] It's county. That's correct. And it's

[39:59] based on reports that are provided by

[40:02] the Housing and Urban Development.

[40:05] And would you intend to do the

[40:07] affordable units

[40:09] scattered throughout all the housing or

[40:11] all together? So, our proposal right now

[40:14] is

[40:15] we have a section of the of the project

[40:17] which is the very west side which is the

[40:19] existing mobile home park that we're

[40:21] proposing as town homes and we would

[40:23] actually propose them as for sale

[40:25] affordable town homes. So they would

[40:27] meet those levels

[40:29] on a for sale basis.

[40:31] And we think that you know helps the city meet you know it's for

[40:35] sale

[40:36] desires have for sale product

[40:39] would be owner occupied

[40:41] and affordability.

[40:43] And then the balance so that would be a

[40:45] big chunk of the requirement would kind

[40:47] of come up front

[40:48] in that phase and then the balance would

[40:50] come over time in the in the rest of the

[40:51] project.

[40:54] Just scattered throughout then.

[40:55] >> But it would proportionally through the project. So there's never a

[40:59] time where we would build

[41:01] a portion of the project unless we

[41:02] proportionally build the affordable

[41:05] portion or we've already met it.

[41:07] Who manages these affordable units as

[41:09] far as

[41:11] like

[41:12] do you guys have to just keep managing

[41:13] it over the years

[41:15] qualifying their income and Yeah. Like

[41:18] that.

[41:18] >> So so the for sale

[41:20] um

[41:22] Ben you're going to have to help me on

[41:22] some of the specifics around for sale

[41:24] but there will be a deed restriction

[41:26] right that'll and that'll be

[41:29] managed um

[41:30] through restrictions on the property and title and lending.

[41:34] Um the for rent is a management process

[41:36] so the rental management company has to

[41:39] make sure that they are meeting the the

[41:42] requirements the minimums tracking the

[41:44] incomes and and the reporting.

[41:47] Do you guys do your own rental

[41:48] management or do you use someone? We do

[41:50] our own rental management yes.

[41:57] Um just wrapping up this slide 80% of

[41:58] the tax increment

[42:01] are eligible

[42:02] to be captured over a maximum of 25

[42:05] years

[42:06] and it does require the city to adopt a

[42:08] zoning for the development before

[42:09] sending the proposal to the governor's

[42:11] office of economic opportunity.

[42:15] Um

[42:18] We we talked about kind of the steps,

[42:19] you know, this is the the governor's

[42:21] office. Um they're looking really to

[42:23] promote transit, promote affordable

[42:25] housing, and redevelopment, uh

[42:26] especially within those corridors uh

[42:29] where tran- where the state has invested

[42:31] significant capital in transit. So,

[42:33] um you know, they've they've provided

[42:35] this as a tool to help facilitate

[42:39] uh those processes.

[42:45] So, some of the uses uh for HTRZ

[42:48] increment, uh income targeted housing

[42:51] costs, structured parking, enhanced

[42:53] development costs, extra- extraordinary

[42:56] development costs, you know, when we

[42:57] look at a site like this,

[42:59] there are significant, for example,

[43:00] utilities that crisscross the site that

[43:02] all have to be re-

[43:04] uh realigned and and put into the new

[43:06] roadway alignments.

[43:07] Um and those are those are ex-

[43:10] extraordinary costs.

[43:13] Uh horizontal costs, vertical costs,

[43:15] land purchase costs, um cost of bonds,

[43:18] and administration of the HTRZ are all

[43:20] eligible costs that can be paid uh by

[43:23] the HTRZ.

[43:26] And you know, the purpose of this is

[43:27] ultimately to build value.

[43:29] Um

[43:31] when we look at the any tax increment

[43:34] financing tool, HTRZ included, uh we

[43:36] look at a base asset value, which is the blue here.

[43:42] And you know, assuming that it's it's in

[43:44] a situation where it's not going to

[43:45] increase on its own, it needs a it needs

[43:47] a little shot in the arm,

[43:49] uh this is what the HTRZ can help do.

[43:51] And so, it it allows to increase uh

[43:54] asset values over time,

[43:56] and at the end of that time period,

[43:57] there's a there's a new basis uh that

[44:00] becomes taxable. And the increment,

[44:02] which is the the area in green,

[44:04] is what's uh captured and available for

[44:06] in development costs.

[44:07] >> Councilor Whipple has a question.

[44:09] it's so

[44:11] the problem with these projections of

[44:14] the the increased revenue and everything

[44:17] from the project

[44:19] are actually the existing pro pro tabs

[44:22] at the mall.

[44:23] Right? Because it wasn't all that long

[44:25] ago, was it? 25 26 years ago. And the

[44:29] first chart that you gave us was showing

[44:31] the revenue just plummeting.

[44:34] From today, but it was, you know, it it

[44:36] did reach a high in 2007.

[44:40] Right, but that still would have been

[44:41] during the time that we'd only be

[44:43] getting incremental amounts. Now that thing is fully developed and

[44:48] everything, it's an albatross.

[44:51] Yeah.

[44:52] I guess what I would say to that is

[44:54] market conditions shift.

[44:56] And um you know, we are we we are

[44:59] reacting Brixton is reacting to the

[45:02] market, right? And and looking at what

[45:04] is today

[45:06] and what could it be in the future.

[45:08] Right? And and I don't know that we're

[45:10] asking, you know, in this in this

[45:12] scenario

[45:13] um

[45:14] the city's not taking any risk.

[45:17] Right?

[45:18] If we don't do anything,

[45:20] then we're in the blue box here

[45:22] for the next

[45:24] 25 years. Unless something changes.

[45:26] Maybe maybe something economically

[45:28] changes

[45:29] and suddenly it becomes financially

[45:31] feasible for us to come in and redevelop

[45:33] without any tax increment. But

[45:36] maybe not, right? And and we don't

[45:39] foresee that

[45:40] happening. Um so, you know, a tax

[45:43] increment financing tool is necessary if

[45:44] we're going to turn the trajectory

[45:47] of mall. And this has happened in in

[45:49] Utah. We take Orem as an example.

[45:51] Um

[45:53] And Orem's the best example, though. So,

[45:58] the University Mall, uh like all malls,

[46:01] uh found itself in a similar situation

[46:03] here a few years ago

[46:05] with declining revenue, declining sales,

[46:07] declining property tax values.

[46:09] Um,

[46:10] and the owners of that mall,

[46:13] uh,

[46:13] worked with the city of Orem to

[46:15] implement a CDA.

[46:19] Right, it was a uh,

[46:21] a fairly extensive CDA that included

[46:25] additional, uh, square footage for

[46:27] office, hotel,

[46:30] uh, retail,

[46:31] and multi-family units, uh, and it over

[46:33] a 10-year period.

[46:39] The Theirs was a 10-year period as

[46:42] opposed to 25?

[46:42] >> the build out was a 10-year Okay, what

[46:44] was their period on there?

[46:47] 30 years.

[46:52] Make sure I got that right here. 20

[46:53] years, sorry.

[46:55] I'm going to slide this kind of cut off

[46:56] here.

[46:57] Um,

[46:59] and this was their projection of the the

[47:01] tax increment increase over time.

[47:05] Now, what they were able to accomplish

[47:07] there, I think you're all familiar with

[47:08] the additional shops, restaurants,

[47:10] office space, uh,

[47:12] the hotel and and uh, multi-family was

[47:14] added there.

[47:15] You know, obviously Provo Towne Centre

[47:16] is a different mall.

[47:18] So,

[47:20] I don't think office is a a use that we

[47:22] would propose because we don't think

[47:23] it's commercially viable, but

[47:25] you know, in at that location they were

[47:27] able to do that and uh, you know, the proof is really in the pudding and

[47:31] this is fairly small text,

[47:35] but the 2013 base value

[47:38] uh, was $129 million.

[47:40] The 2025 assessed value was uh,

[47:45] over $500 million. So, a four and a half

[47:47] fold increase over the time period. Um,

[47:50] and the investment

[47:52] paid off. What year did Orem start

[47:55] theirs?

[47:56] Their their tax increment financing

[47:58] part. 2018

[48:01] It was actually settled on

[48:03] one

[48:04] year before us. So, they're still not

[48:05] seeing any of this benefit.

[48:08] Uh

[48:09] Not not till 2038. Not till 2038.

[48:12] But

[48:14] There's their school district.

[48:17] What uh Split up. What is the your

[48:20] estimated total of the um

[48:25] gap or the tax increment that you

[48:28] expect?

[48:29] Yeah, so Justin, do you want to Yeah, so

[48:31] the what we've requested is a bondable

[48:33] amount at around $20 million. And then

[48:36] the gap itself, if you really

[48:38] take it out, it's probably closer to 80,

[48:40] but

[48:40] based on our financing projections, we see the gap in the bondable amount of

[48:45] about $20 million.

[48:47] That's what we're requesting.

[48:49] So, 25 years or 20 million.

[48:53] Bondable amount, so that doesn't

[48:54] necessarily Oh. It is people being like,

[48:57] "Hey, cuz there's

[48:58] those payments are going to a bond

[49:00] holder of that type." So, what we're

[49:02] looking for is an upfront bondable

[49:03] amount to offset

[49:05] infrastructure costs of approximately 20

[49:07] million.

[49:21] So, where we are

[49:22] today, we have been to the planning

[49:24] commission with four requests.

[49:27] And those will be coming to you

[49:30] for your consideration. And we wanted to

[49:32] just touch on the request that we made

[49:33] at planning commission, some of the

[49:35] feedback that we heard, and and what we

[49:36] think our request and the need is when

[49:39] we come before you

[49:41] as city council.

[49:43] So, first um

[49:46] as I mentioned in the in the slide deck

[49:48] here, the application for the HRZ

[49:51] actually comes from the city and the

[49:53] zoning needs to be in place. So, we are

[49:56] in the process of requesting a re-zoning

[49:58] of this property to accommodate this

[50:00] project. And that step involves um

[50:04] uh what we've requested is an ITOD zone,

[50:07] amending the general plan to accommodate

[50:09] the ITOD zone, and a text amendment to

[50:12] the ITOD zone.

[50:14] One of the challenges that we faced is

[50:16] finding a zone within the Provo City

[50:18] ordinances that accommodates something

[50:20] like this.

[50:22] And so, the ITOD zone is the most

[50:26] um favorable. It's the the closest thing

[50:30] that that can accommodate something like

[50:32] this,

[50:33] but it needs a few tweaks.

[50:35] Um one of the requests that we made was

[50:36] that uh

[50:38] some tweaks be made to it that would

[50:40] allow us to build town homes that are

[50:42] for sale.

[50:44] And some of the feedback that we heard

[50:45] from Planning Commission was, "Well, we

[50:46] don't think town homes are an

[50:47] appropriate use in an ITOD zone. It

[50:49] should be more dense."

[50:51] And I just want to point out that um

[50:53] the project on University Parkway,

[50:55] River's Edge, uh built town homes within

[50:58] an ITOD zone 4 years ago.

[51:01] But they're there for rent.

[51:03] And and within the text of the zoning,

[51:06] you can actually build them for rent

[51:07] because of the lot standards.

[51:10] But you can't sell them individually

[51:12] because the lot sizes get too small. So,

[51:14] the requests that we made were to

[51:16] accommodate facilitate that use.

[51:18] Planning Commission recommended not

[51:20] approving that. They didn't feel like

[51:22] town homes were an appropriate use

[51:23] within the ITOD zone.

[51:25] But again, I I come back to

[51:27] we're following precedent here that town

[51:29] homes have been approved uh in an ITOD

[51:31] zone, but not for sale. So, you know,

[51:34] that's that's uh something that we need

[51:36] to consider.

[51:38] The other text amendment request that we

[51:40] had made was regarding setback

[51:41] requirements adjacent to uh residential

[51:44] zones.

[51:46] And uh the request that we made was that

[51:48] building heights be allowed for every

[51:51] foot horizontally

[51:53] um

[51:54] that you could go up 2 ft.

[51:56] Um and planning commission felt like

[51:57] that was

[51:58] uh too steep and they preferred the transition language that

[52:01] is in the ITOD zone.

[52:04] However, the the language that is in the

[52:06] ITOD zone currently requires within the

[52:09] first 100 ft of any residential zone,

[52:11] you can only be three stories high with

[52:13] a gable roof.

[52:15] Well, if we come back to

[52:18] Let me bring you back to the site plan

[52:19] here.

[52:22] Get to that one.

[52:34] I think I can get a better one here.

[52:38] Okay.

[52:40] So,

[52:42] we have residential zone

[52:44] here, here, here, here, and here.

[52:50] And uh those those residential zones

[52:53] primarily house uh duplex uh units and

[52:57] um multiplex units.

[53:00] Uh and we just want to point out that if

[53:01] we if we have a 100 ft setback limited

[53:04] to three stories in height

[53:06] that it dramatically reduces the density

[53:09] that we can fit on this project.

[53:12] And uh by about call it 250 to 300

[53:15] units. So, it's about a quarter of the

[53:17] units.

[53:18] Um and and one of the challenges is that

[53:21] it affects the way that the parking lays

[53:23] out. And and so,

[53:25] um

[53:26] we think there's room to work around

[53:29] this the setback from residential

[53:31] uh properties. Um you know, we had

[53:33] proposed 2 ft of vertical for every foot

[53:36] of horizontal. I think we could probably

[53:39] you know, come to a a 1 ft to 1 ft. So,

[53:42] every foot of horizontal to 1-ft of

[53:44] vertical, that that increases that set

[53:46] by set back by about double from what we

[53:49] had proposed in the in the tent.

[53:51] But that's those are two very critical

[53:53] issues for us on the rezone.

[53:56] Uh

[53:56] that make this project viable or

[53:58] unviable.

[53:59] And so we need to make sure that we get

[54:01] really clear on those.

[54:03] So what exactly is behind you? Is there

[54:05] a church with the Yeah, there's a

[54:08] church. With the church So we have a

[54:09] church here,

[54:13] This is

[54:15] open space that the church owns.

[54:18] And then we have a duplex, duplex,

[54:23] couple of duplexes in here and then two

[54:26] here.

[54:28] Those are all duplexes. Are they owned

[54:30] or rented?

[54:32] Uh I couldn't say.

[54:35] They're all HOA.

[54:37] They're all HOAs. I'm pretty sure.

[54:39] Sorry, what? What I didn't hear. I think

[54:41] they're pretty much HOAs.

[54:43] Daniel lives in

[54:45] the one around

[54:47] Yeah, Daniel lives in.

[54:50] Yes, it's all HOA. It's actually a

[54:52] really nice HOA. Like they do a good

[54:54] job.

[54:56] Okay, we can drive around there.

[54:58] For just for context, um Oh, it's what

[55:00] you drive through before you get to

[55:02] Yeah,

[55:03] they maintain it well. Yeah. This this

[55:05] building that slopes is right here

[55:08] to any residents here is

[55:10] Um

[55:11] and I guess this one as well. They're

[55:14] both 50 ft. There was a street between

[55:17] you and the residential? There is a

[55:19] there's a driveway, yes.

[55:21] But there's no street going down there.

[55:23] Like you'd be onto their property line.

[55:26] Like your property lines touch.

[55:28] Yes. Yeah. So the property line from our property line

[55:32] we're back 50 ft.

[55:35] Can I ask a question?

[55:37] Did you explore concept plans that use

[55:39] some of those townhomes as a buffer so

[55:40] that you don't have to amend the TDR

[55:43] zone?

[55:45] So,

[55:46] I Yes. Again,

[55:48] 100 ft is a long ways,

[55:51] and it just reduces the density

[55:53] dramatically.

[55:55] So,

[55:56] um,

[55:57] you know,

[55:59] In this In this area, we we do have some

[56:02] townhomes that could could potentially

[56:03] buffer there. We don't have a big issue

[56:05] here because the property line steps

[56:06] back, right? We just have more room to

[56:07] work.

[56:09] This side, um,

[56:10] you know, we have one little corner here

[56:12] that gets close, but it's not even It's

[56:14] not within 70 ft or so, you know, it's fairly

[56:17] removed. But then we're kind of pinned

[56:19] on this south side by the mall as it

[56:22] exists, and so,

[56:24] um, you know, what we're talking about

[56:26] here is,

[56:27] you know,

[56:29] really It's really just density, you

[56:31] know, and and

[56:33] building a dense

[56:35] urban project,

[56:37] right? On a redeveloping mall,

[56:39] and how do we how do we fit that in?

[56:42] Like I say, I think we can adjust that

[56:46] the ratio

[56:48] to a one-to-one, which is a 45° angle,

[56:51] and and be a minimum of 50 ft from the

[56:53] property line.

[56:55] What What are you meaning by that? You

[56:56] mean having it go

[56:58] What I'm What I'm suggesting is, you

[57:00] know, we're 50 ft from the property line on

[57:04] this side, and this is as close as we

[57:06] get.

[57:07] And we're 50 ft tall. We go 50, 50 ft

[57:10] up. So, for every 50 ft horizontally, we

[57:13] go up 50 ft, and that results in a 45°

[57:16] angle from the ground to the top of the roof.

[57:19] >> Got you.

[57:20] Um, one just thing to high just a

[57:22] reminder to highlight is not only is it

[57:26] present feasibility issues to lose that

[57:27] many units, but we also have the

[57:28] requirement on the H 2 RZ side to have

[57:31] enough density to meet that 50 units per

[57:33] acre. So, we have to have density to

[57:36] make meet the requirements of the HRZ.

[57:38] So, it's a little bit of a

[57:40] double whammy with that setback. So.

[57:45] could you put

[57:48] some of the town homes here and maybe

[57:49] move this building over there? That's

[57:51] what I was kind of

[57:54] Well, you can see the building. I mean

[57:57] there's probably a lot of

[57:59] sliding around that we can do and and

[58:01] you know, we're more than happy to look

[58:02] at it. But it it will reduce the density

[58:06] available on the site without somehow

[58:08] finding a way to I think I'd be more

[58:10] comfortable with you trying to finagle

[58:12] it and maybe some of those town homes.

[58:13] are out on an island

[58:15] and that's your 80% AMI and your 60%

[58:17] AMI. They're the ones that are going to

[58:19] need to be closer to transit in my

[58:21] opinion than your

[58:23] for-rent

[58:24] at market rate apartments. So, you kind

[58:28] of discriminated against them,

[58:31] kind of pushed them out instead of

[58:32] putting them closer to the

[58:33] transportation hubs. I'd like to see

[58:36] more of that

[58:38] integrated into your project

[58:42] and how do you kind of tweak it so that

[58:44] we can see more of that?

[58:46] Is there a distance? I mean, right now it says 100 ft, which is

[58:50] you know,

[58:52] a quarter to a third of the site, you

[58:54] know, in depth. I mean, is there is

[58:55] there a is there a some feedback on

[58:58] Well, I I would be

[59:00] I'd be okay being creative about the

[59:03] setback.

[59:04] Um my biggest heartburn about this is

[59:07] home ownership.

[59:09] We we made that very clear from the

[59:11] beginning.

[59:12] An 87 out of what is 340?

[59:16] It does not That's a nod to home

[59:17] ownership.

[59:19] What we don't need in this part of Provo

[59:21] is a bunch of more apartments. What we

[59:23] need is more home ownership.

[59:26] And so, I feel strongly

[59:29] I like what I'm seeing. I want this

[59:30] project to happen and you're going to

[59:32] tell me it doesn't pencil out.

[59:35] And I wish

[59:36] I hear that.

[59:37] I'm just saying we've got to figure out

[59:39] a way to be more creative

[59:41] because the kind of split of 1300 and

[59:43] then 87

[59:45] I understand if it's one big building,

[59:48] it's hard to split up one big building,

[59:50] but we've got separate buildings. You

[59:51] could take a couple of those those

[59:53] bigger buildings and make those condos

[59:56] or something like that.

[59:57] I feel very strongly

[1:00:00] about more home ownership and to me 87

[1:00:04] doesn't even come close. We've talked

[1:00:05] other projects about 50/50. Now, I

[1:00:08] realize not everyone on the council may

[1:00:10] see that the same,

[1:00:12] but I do.

[1:00:13] I I feel strongly that we need to be creative about figuring

[1:00:17] that out. Now, if that comes to setbacks

[1:00:19] and all this stuff, I'd I'd be willing

[1:00:21] to be creative.

[1:00:23] Um

[1:00:24] I would just I would say that the home

[1:00:27] ownership in my mind doesn't even come

[1:00:29] close.

[1:00:31] So,

[1:00:34] not that this that may matter to you, I

[1:00:36] don't know.

[1:00:37] Um

[1:00:39] condo developers typically plan on

[1:00:42] selling two to three units a month.

[1:00:45] That's about the absorption rate in a in

[1:00:47] a development project.

[1:00:49] And they can they can plan about a year

[1:00:51] to absorb. So, they can build 24 to 36

[1:00:56] units in a building

[1:00:58] and absorb those over a year and they

[1:00:59] can manage the carry cost

[1:01:02] of of doing that.

[1:01:04] Well, any one of these buildings is, you

[1:01:06] know,

[1:01:07] approaching 200 units. Multifamily we absorb on lease up

[1:01:12] 15 to 20 units a month.

[1:01:15] And we can absorb in in 12 to 15 months

[1:01:19] is tip our typical absorption period.

[1:01:22] I know

[1:01:23] it may not matter to you guys, but from

[1:01:26] a financial standpoint, those are real

[1:01:28] challenges Yeah. that we have to face.

[1:01:30] Yeah. And so, you know, if we can only

[1:01:33] absorb, you know, sell

[1:01:35] two to three units a month, then how how

[1:01:37] fast how long would it take us to sell

[1:01:39] 600 units?

[1:01:42] Right? Those are the challenges that we

[1:01:44] face, that we're trying to overcome.

[1:01:47] Um

[1:01:48] and and it's why, frankly, we don't see

[1:01:51] condo projects being built at the same

[1:01:53] rate we see apartment units being built.

[1:01:55] There's also a shift in the marketplace

[1:01:57] of

[1:01:58] uh renters by choice

[1:02:00] who can rent and and it's especially

[1:02:03] true today. It's not always been true

[1:02:05] and it will shift back. But today

[1:02:08] what you rent for and what you what you

[1:02:10] pay in in terms of a mortgage, there's

[1:02:12] so much disparity between the two that

[1:02:13] people are choosing to rent.

[1:02:15] Right? Even if they can afford to buy.

[1:02:17] They choose to rent because it's it's a

[1:02:18] better financial choice for

[1:02:21] And it's been happening for several

[1:02:22] years and we foresee it happening for

[1:02:24] the next several years. So, if we're

[1:02:26] trying to plan housing

[1:02:28] um and housing availability

[1:02:31] like

[1:02:32] policy-wise, we can put a stake in the

[1:02:33] ground and say

[1:02:35] this is the way it's going to be, but

[1:02:36] the market may not respond.

[1:02:38] Yeah. But at the same time, you're

[1:02:39] asking us to be lenient

[1:02:42] for something that's not necessarily in

[1:02:43] our goals, right?

[1:02:45] So, I think there needs to be more more

[1:02:47] give and take from the other end.

[1:02:50] And you're asking a lot from us. Yeah,

[1:02:52] and I and I would say I do care that

[1:02:54] this is successful. I I do care about

[1:02:57] the finances.

[1:02:59] And I also believe that there's got to

[1:03:01] be some way to figure this out.

[1:03:03] Um

[1:03:05] we've worked as we look at this project,

[1:03:08] again, I I just can't imagine moving

[1:03:10] forward with that kind of

[1:03:12] that number of apartments and that kind

[1:03:14] of home ownership.

[1:03:15] It just on that

[1:03:17] I personally think I would say,

[1:03:20] "Well, then we we should wait." Agreed.

[1:03:22] >> It just just me personal.

[1:03:25] Um and I really want this to happen. I

[1:03:27] love what you put together. I like what

[1:03:28] you're doing and I want you to be

[1:03:30] successful and I want the city to be

[1:03:32] successful, too, and I feel very

[1:03:33] strongly

[1:03:35] that we've got to be more creative in

[1:03:36] figuring out a way to to do that.

[1:03:40] We know the market is there. We have so

[1:03:42] many young singles that want to own and

[1:03:44] they want small. They want They want

[1:03:46] apartment owning. You had some of that

[1:03:47] in your comments on the planning

[1:03:48] commission.

[1:03:49] I believe the market is there to do that.

[1:03:54] Like I would Yeah.

[1:03:56] At least one of those buildings

[1:04:00] for sale.

[1:04:01] Um Is it okay if I go?

[1:04:03] >> Yeah.

[1:04:04] So, I have a couple kind of related

[1:04:06] questions around housing. What is your

[1:04:07] current plan with the manufactured

[1:04:09] housing that would be displaced for our

[1:04:11] these townhomes?

[1:04:14] I'll do it to you back. I'll call

[1:04:15] Justin. Sure. Uh yeah, so the plan

[1:04:18] currently is that there's a little

[1:04:20] somewhere between 30 and 35 at the

[1:04:22] moment that we anticipate, if it

[1:04:24] happened today, they would be impacted.

[1:04:26] But obviously, this is not happening

[1:04:28] today. So, one of the things we've

[1:04:29] offered is to provide at least 18 months

[1:04:31] worth of notice to anybody, you know,

[1:04:33] from the time we would actually need to

[1:04:35] vacate. So, we want to give them plenty

[1:04:36] of time. And then during that 18-month

[1:04:39] period, we really want to work with each

[1:04:40] of them individually to figure out what

[1:04:42] the right solution is for them because

[1:04:44] the the range of of desires and

[1:04:48] potential outcomes varies widely. Some

[1:04:50] of those old homes are very old and may

[1:04:53] not feel they can be moved. Some of them

[1:04:55] can maybe easily be moved. And we don't

[1:04:57] necessarily know what their, you know,

[1:04:59] housing goals are, either. So, we want

[1:05:00] to take that time in order to kind of

[1:05:02] individually work with each of them to

[1:05:04] figure out what the right solution is

[1:05:05] and there are varieties of different

[1:05:07] things that they could do, but we didn't

[1:05:09] have had those conversations yet and we

[1:05:11] want to make sure that there's plenty of

[1:05:12] time in this process to have those

[1:05:14] conversations. So, like I said, we've

[1:05:15] committed to,

[1:05:16] you know, minimum 18 months. It could be

[1:05:18] potentially longer than that, but 18

[1:05:20] months of of notice for that.

[1:05:22] >> Is there Is there willingness for more

[1:05:23] substantial commitments? Like to help

[1:05:25] them relocate. I think these are some of

[1:05:27] the most vulnerable members of our

[1:05:28] community.

[1:05:31] Again, I'm with Craig. I want I want to

[1:05:33] find a way to make this happen, but I

[1:05:34] think each of us have sort of our red

[1:05:36] lines. Like this to me is a red line.

[1:05:37] Like we're not going to displace these

[1:05:39] people and not help them relocate and me

[1:05:40] vote for this. So,

[1:05:42] 18 months is nice to get a head start,

[1:05:44] but you know, I talked to one woman who

[1:05:45] just, you know,

[1:05:47] saved up all her money, put a mortgage

[1:05:50] on this on a on one of the homes, and

[1:05:52] now it's like for her to find the money

[1:05:53] to relocate this in a place that works

[1:05:54] for her life is like just

[1:05:55] catastrophically,

[1:05:58] you know, impactful to her personal

[1:05:59] financial situation. So, I recognize you

[1:06:01] have constraints, but like

[1:06:03] the idea here is to find a win-win for

[1:06:05] our community, but also for you all. And

[1:06:06] so, that's just something I want to be

[1:06:07] clear about. Yeah, understood. And I'll

[1:06:10] just from an operational standpoint,

[1:06:12] uh we don't allow folks to move in. So,

[1:06:16] meaning

[1:06:17] nobody can just come in and legally just

[1:06:19] buy a mobile home park mobile home from

[1:06:21] somebody else. Because one, we want to

[1:06:23] know who's in there, and two, we want to

[1:06:26] make them aware of

[1:06:27] this scenario. So, if somebody comes in

[1:06:29] to says, "Hey, we want to acquire this

[1:06:31] home over here." We say, "Well,

[1:06:33] okay, here's

[1:06:35] probably can't do that and here's why."

[1:06:36] So, we we try as best we can to avoid

[1:06:39] those situations, but making sure that

[1:06:40] there's transparency with us so they can

[1:06:42] be made aware of you know, situations.

[1:06:44] We do not allow on our end for new folks

[1:06:48] to move in for all the reasons we just

[1:06:50] talked about.

[1:06:50] >> And haven't you been doing that for a

[1:06:51] while? What What's the last time that

[1:06:53] you took in a new

[1:06:55] I don't know exactly, but it's at least

[1:06:57] been a year, probably a couple of years

[1:06:58] that we've had that policy at least. I I

[1:07:01] didn't realize that people purchase. So,

[1:07:03] do they rent the the spot from you, the

[1:07:06] land, and then they provide the home.

[1:07:07] They would buy the house. I thought you

[1:07:09] owned both. Uh it's some mobile parks do

[1:07:12] operate that way. In our case, the the

[1:07:14] individual owns the home.

[1:07:15] >> It's their It's their home. Theirs. They

[1:07:17] go and then they lease the land on the

[1:07:19] lot. Correct.

[1:07:21] I didn't know that. And then I have

[1:07:22] another question. What

[1:07:23] >> Can Can I just add There There are

[1:07:24] challenges around mobile home parks

[1:07:26] because there are age restrictions on

[1:07:29] moving mobile homes. Sometimes they they

[1:07:31] age out or they get they get degraded

[1:07:33] enough that they can't be moved. So, the

[1:07:36] question becomes, well, whose job is to

[1:07:37] maintain the mobile home if it can't be

[1:07:39] moved? Whose job is that? Is that the

[1:07:41] land owner's or is that the home

[1:07:42] owner's?

[1:07:43] And And those are questions that we, you

[1:07:45] know, they're sticky.

[1:07:47] But we don't believe the land owner's

[1:07:49] responsible to maintain individuals'

[1:07:50] mobile homes.

[1:07:52] Don't get me wrong. You'll You'll You'll

[1:07:54] hear no argument from me about the

[1:07:55] problematic nature of mobile homes as a model, but nonetheless, they're

[1:07:59] still residents for our community. Um

[1:08:01] okay, so my other question is um are

[1:08:03] there any additional asks you all plan

[1:08:06] for this project that are not currently

[1:08:07] on the table? Like additional PIPS from

[1:08:09] like a a performance perspective on tax

[1:08:13] sales tax.

[1:08:14] Yeah, we've requested a sales tax uh

[1:08:16] share on it. It's not technically part

[1:08:18] of the EAZ. And we've requested a a

[1:08:21] PID, right?

[1:08:23] A PID, but not in order to put

[1:08:25] additional increment on, but basically

[1:08:26] just to take the revenues that are

[1:08:27] proposed to come in and use that as the

[1:08:30] bonding mechanism. So, it's not an

[1:08:31] additional

[1:08:32] uh monetary request. It's just a

[1:08:35] structural But that's That's the vehicle

[1:08:37] for the bonding.

[1:08:37] >> That's right. I know.

[1:08:40] So, What's And And And I would Was there

[1:08:41] anything I forgot? I don't think so. And

[1:08:43] to be clear, just to make sure everyone

[1:08:45] understands, a PID does not obligate the

[1:08:48] city necessarily. I mean, there are ways that a city can

[1:08:51] participate, but right as of right now,

[1:08:53] I don't think we're asking that the city

[1:08:55] necessarily guarantee guarantee the

[1:08:57] >> is to get back a portion of the revenues that we generate either

[1:09:03] sales tax or property tax over a

[1:09:05] baseline

[1:09:07] and be able to monetize that to help pay

[1:09:08] for the project. Yeah. So we're not

[1:09:10] asking for any of the existing tax base.

[1:09:12] We're asking for a portion of the income

[1:09:13] angle. Yeah. And how much of that

[1:09:15] exactly are you asking for? Uh it shares

[1:09:17] the

[1:09:19] it's 80% and we requested right now our

[1:09:21] modeling shows 50% of the sales tax

[1:09:23] share that half a percent.

[1:09:25] Which is a half a percent? Half a

[1:09:26] percent, Yeah. which is two years.

[1:09:31] It Going back to some of the home issue,

[1:09:34] um like right now there is one of those

[1:09:37] trailers listed for sale

[1:09:41] on Zillow. Like somebody's trying to

[1:09:43] actively sell one of these homes in your

[1:09:45] park.

[1:09:47] I would.

[1:09:48] Yeah, I had flagged it and and sent it

[1:09:50] to the building services a few months

[1:09:52] ago when I first saw it. It's been up

[1:09:53] there since October, so they're not

[1:09:54] moving it.

[1:09:56] But I don't know if that could be bought

[1:09:58] to move. I don't know. Sure. Yeah, the

[1:10:00] listing it just did say that the that it

[1:10:03] must be moved. Yeah. Yeah. We have had

[1:10:05] those come in that want to purchase

[1:10:07] Cedar Bay and sell the trailer and then

[1:10:09] move it to another site, land, mobile

[1:10:12] home park, whatever it is.

[1:10:13] So we will generally allow that. Okay.

[1:10:16] They are allowed to move out obviously

[1:10:17] to eventually vacate.

[1:10:19] So

[1:10:21] and I I talked to some of you there

[1:10:24] before.

[1:10:25] You said that there are 30 to 35 units

[1:10:28] affected. I know that you know, some

[1:10:30] people have moved out, have left their properties.

[1:10:35] Um so how many of those homes have

[1:10:38] already been vacated?

[1:10:40] And do you have any more that are in the

[1:10:42] process of being vacated?

[1:10:46] I mean I think there's always usually a

[1:10:48] couple that are in process of you know,

[1:10:50] legal

[1:10:52] for whatever Right, for for not

[1:10:54] complying with regulations or things

[1:10:56] like that. And there's very very few

[1:10:57] that we force trailer violations on us

[1:10:59] >> Usually it's ancient reasons.

[1:11:01] Um

[1:11:02] But that 30 to 35 includes folks that

[1:11:05] have already moved out. That's not

[1:11:06] necessarily mobile home

[1:11:08] trailers or mobile home

[1:11:10] units that are sitting there cuz they're into the middle of process of

[1:11:14] either removing or demolishing any

[1:11:17] right in the shape or form of it, so.

[1:11:20] Yeah, I The reason I ask about that is

[1:11:24] um

[1:11:25] I don't know exactly how many households

[1:11:29] are potentially affected by this right

[1:11:31] now because I know some of them are

[1:11:33] already in the process of leaving before

[1:11:35] we do any of this. Okay. Um and I'm

[1:11:39] honestly surprised that you don't have

[1:11:40] more specific numbers for us on that

[1:11:43] where you can't say, "All right, there

[1:11:45] are still 30 units that are in full

[1:11:46] compliance. We've got three that are

[1:11:49] in in violation and so we expect that

[1:11:51] they'll be gone before we even consider

[1:11:53] moving forward with that."

[1:11:54] >> Or I can tell you all the five are in

[1:11:56] some level of non-compliance.

[1:11:58] They're operationally or financially.

[1:12:01] So

[1:12:03] How many How many of those do you feel

[1:12:06] see what I'm saying? Moving out is kind

[1:12:08] of it's a loaded question. I can't

[1:12:10] exactly answer your

[1:12:11] Right.

[1:12:12] >> question. But if there only five

[1:12:15] households there

[1:12:16] that are in full compliance with the the

[1:12:19] restrictions and covenants of living in

[1:12:21] the mobile home park

[1:12:23] um

[1:12:25] where there could be through normal

[1:12:29] legal process is a way to to remove them

[1:12:32] if this weren't happening

[1:12:34] then that's that's a very different

[1:12:37] situation, right?

[1:12:39] That you would need to work with five

[1:12:42] residents or five homes So we don't

[1:12:44] necessarily have it done that

[1:12:46] necessarily have it done

[1:12:47] that approach.

[1:12:48] Right. Right.

[1:12:50] >> We could We could just lay the hammer

[1:12:52] down on everybody and

[1:12:54] only enforce because no there's not one

[1:12:57] tenant not one tenant that has an active

[1:13:00] lease at all in the whole of Boulder.

[1:13:02] So,

[1:13:03] we have a legal right to do a lot of

[1:13:06] this. We're just going to do what's the

[1:13:08] right thing to do. We're going to do the

[1:13:09] right thing to do. And I think that's actually an important thing for

[1:13:13] our community to know

[1:13:15] that some of the people who are living

[1:13:17] here are vulnerable not just because of

[1:13:20] their socioeconomic status, but because

[1:13:23] they are actually not in compliance with

[1:13:25] the current requirements of the place

[1:13:28] that they're living right now.

[1:13:30] And then often times I would say with

[1:13:32] normal standards of safety at home.

[1:13:35] So, like these

[1:13:37] that's a complicating factor that we we

[1:13:41] need to consider that some of these

[1:13:42] people may not have on their own

[1:13:46] strong rights to remain in this area

[1:13:49] already. It doesn't mean that there

[1:13:52] good options for them that they could

[1:13:54] afford elsewhere, but

[1:13:59] it it adds color to the conversation.

[1:14:07] Got Henderson.

[1:14:08] Speaking in a Mayor Judkins absence,

[1:14:11] there's a couple points that she wanted

[1:14:13] me to bring up. I think for those

[1:14:15] properties that you've discussed that

[1:14:17] may still be there, I think she really

[1:14:20] wanted to look at a target of a $10,000

[1:14:23] relocation allowance possibly for those

[1:14:26] ones as something to look at as part of

[1:14:28] your evaluation of the process.

[1:14:31] And another point that she wanted

[1:14:33] brought up and look at is just to make

[1:14:35] sure as both staff and you look at your

[1:14:38] design that and and Becky brought that

[1:14:40] up, make sure we have effective

[1:14:42] placement of transit locations close to

[1:14:45] those who would be most likely the

[1:14:46] users. So, make sure we spend enough

[1:14:48] time on that. But, those are a couple

[1:14:50] concepts that she wanted me to express

[1:14:52] for.

[1:14:54] Thank you.

[1:14:55] Councilor Whitlock.

[1:14:57] Thank you.

[1:14:58] Just a few more questions. I wanted

[1:15:00] Maybe you said this and I missed it.

[1:15:01] You're saying so the

[1:15:04] sales tax TIF is a half a percent over

[1:15:07] what period of time?

[1:15:08] Uh

[1:15:09] 10 to

[1:15:11] 30

[1:15:12] or

[1:15:14] So, 30 years? Okay. And then

[1:15:16] maybe this is a Cody question or your

[1:15:18] question, but this HTRZ zone it also

[1:15:21] requires the city to take 15% of sales

[1:15:23] tax of our sales tax and put it into a

[1:15:26] transportation fund. Can you explain how

[1:15:27] that works? I didn't fully

[1:15:29] understand all that from the packet.

[1:15:31] That's a city question.

[1:15:32] That a Cody question?

[1:15:33] >> City question. Isn't there like some

[1:15:34] requirement with

[1:15:37] Yeah, there is. So, with the HTRZ

[1:15:38] portion of it

[1:15:40] my notes towards what My notes I have

[1:15:43] notes.

[1:15:45] It's putting I don't know.

[1:15:47] If you give me one second, I'll Okay, I

[1:15:48] can ask another question in the

[1:15:49] meantime. So,

[1:15:52] the chart you provided the latest actual

[1:15:54] numbers were as of 2023. I was curious,

[1:15:56] what were the numbers for 2024 and 2025?

[1:15:59] Yes, because we have the target going in

[1:16:01] 2024. Yes.

[1:16:03] Uh I don't have that, but it's a good

[1:16:05] story. Okay. I I That's something the

[1:16:07] city would have to share with us

[1:16:07] actually.

[1:16:09] Okay, maybe we can get into

[1:16:11] Do you Are you not in contracts with the

[1:16:13] current operators of the mall?

[1:16:15] Can we also share

[1:16:16] >> but

[1:16:16] vast majority of retailers do not share

[1:16:18] their sales.

[1:16:19] >> Do not share their sales receipts with

[1:16:20] you. Okay. Um

[1:16:22] and then

[1:16:23] uh

[1:16:26] Cody, do you have that number now?

[1:16:27] >> Yeah, okay, cool.

[1:16:32] Cody Hill from the city economic

[1:16:34] development. So, it's 15%. So, 15% of

[1:16:38] the sales tax revenue that's generated

[1:16:39] within the HTRZ area goes towards the

[1:16:41] state TIF fund. That's 15% of the total

[1:16:44] 8% or whatever. It's not 15% of the

[1:16:46] city's I believe it's the 15% of the

[1:16:48] state's portion of the state. Are you

[1:16:49] saying 1.5 or 5.0?

[1:16:51] 14.15

[1:16:53] So you're saying the portion is what we

[1:16:54] already said at the state anyway. I

[1:16:56] believe that's correct. Is that Yeah. So

[1:16:58] it's not really relevant to us. Yeah, so

[1:17:00] it's not it doesn't So I guess it just

[1:17:02] depends what the denominator is. Is it

[1:17:04] from the state's allotment or is it from

[1:17:05] the total I mean I guess Yeah, I think

[1:17:07] it's the state. It's not relevant to us

[1:17:08] then. All right. Yeah.

[1:17:10] it's not our point of sale

[1:17:12] portion. Yeah, okay. Makes sense.

[1:17:15] And do we have an understanding of what

[1:17:17] all these percentages together are in

[1:17:18] actual dollar amounts? Sure. Yeah.

[1:17:21] If you prepare for this we want to

[1:17:23] have a more general discussion but I had

[1:17:25] a great time talking to you on

[1:17:27] projections at the department.

[1:17:29] annual standpoint

[1:17:33] Thank you.

[1:17:38] What are the Is that parking at the back

[1:17:41] of your second apartment complex?

[1:17:44] On the right. parking Yeah. Yeah. Uh

[1:17:47] townhomes. Oh, those are townhomes. Mhm.

[1:17:50] Yeah.

[1:17:53] with parking Yeah.

[1:17:59] And because it's a townhome it's not

[1:18:01] required to have the 100 ft, right?

[1:18:05] It doesn't Well, yeah, it doesn't go

[1:18:06] over the three stories.

[1:18:11] This question, is the

[1:18:13] Are the townhomes those two-story?

[1:18:17] Um two and three.

[1:18:20] Tyler, do you remember?

[1:18:21] We we've shown a variety of different

[1:18:23] designs. So I think those ones might

[1:18:25] just be two stories. But you have two

[1:18:28] and three. Um it just depends if we have

[1:18:31] it fully fleshed out.

[1:18:34] And do you all of your apartments have

[1:18:37] elevators?

[1:18:40] Uh yes, they do. Um

[1:18:42] this is what we call a wrap or it wraps

[1:18:44] around a parking structure. Those are

[1:18:45] five levels of units from the ground

[1:18:48] floor and those have elevators and then

[1:18:51] uh these two in the middle are what we

[1:18:53] call a podium. So, the left apartment

[1:18:55] units are built on top of the parking.

[1:18:58] And so, those are

[1:18:59] five levels on top of two levels of

[1:19:01] parking. So, it's ends up being seven

[1:19:03] stories tall and they all have and they

[1:19:05] all have elevators. And the ones to the

[1:19:07] east also have elevators? Yes.

[1:19:15] Councilor Whitlock?

[1:19:17] Um just for our education, assuming you

[1:19:19] know your business, but I'd like to

[1:19:20] understand so you said there's this like

[1:19:22] secular trend of malls failing across

[1:19:24] the United States. Um explain to us why

[1:19:27] this will work. Like why will this work

[1:19:29] and be durable for the next 50 years as

[1:19:31] opposed to

[1:19:33] you know, succumbing to this trend but

[1:19:34] just delaying it by a little bit.

[1:19:36] Good question. Um so, let me just

[1:19:38] reference some some of my work before I

[1:19:40] came to Brixmor. So, um

[1:19:42] I spent uh

[1:19:43] almost 5 years at CBL, which is a

[1:19:45] publicly traded REIT out of Chattanooga,

[1:19:47] Tennessee. They had 85 malls. I spent 5

[1:19:49] years with them redeveloping malls. Um

[1:19:52] their malls are mostly located in um

[1:19:55] Midwest, Southeast, and a little bit in

[1:19:57] the Northeast.

[1:19:59] More in secondary and tertiary markets

[1:20:01] and so, they ended up seeing the front

[1:20:03] wave of the secular shifts. So,

[1:20:05] obviously as uh malls that were winning

[1:20:08] continue to win. So, those that are the

[1:20:10] dominant, we'll call fortress malls, uh

[1:20:13] continue to win. You can think of uh City Creek. You think of just like

[1:20:18] everybody knows where it is. Everybody's

[1:20:19] willing to travel to go to it, right?

[1:20:21] Well, that takes the energy out of all

[1:20:22] the other malls that used to serve those

[1:20:24] areas.

[1:20:25] Um so, that's this been happening for a

[1:20:26] lot of time. So, CBL was kind of at the

[1:20:29] front wave of that. And then I went to

[1:20:31] work for a company called Macerich,

[1:20:32] which was a total trade area of Santa

[1:20:33] Monica, uh California.

[1:20:35] They had some higher quality malls, and

[1:20:38] but they had some of the lower tier

[1:20:40] ones. So, their options

[1:20:42] more like this asset had a little bit

[1:20:45] better demographics, a little bit better

[1:20:47] setting to reimagine what it could be

[1:20:49] instead of just saying, "Hey, well,

[1:20:50] maybe it's tear this down and do

[1:20:51] something completely different with it.

[1:20:53] We could reuse the buildings." And the

[1:20:55] reason um

[1:20:57] the reason this works is because I don't

[1:21:00] have the slide in here, but if you think

[1:21:01] about how mall traditionally works,

[1:21:03] people come maybe sometime during the

[1:21:06] week to go to a movie or maybe go or

[1:21:09] something like that, but the bulk of the

[1:21:10] time that's spent in a mall is let's

[1:21:13] call it 5:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. in the

[1:21:15] evenings, and then on the weekends it's

[1:21:17] fairly busy, you know, most of the time.

[1:21:20] Well, that means during the day and in

[1:21:22] the morning pretty much every time there

[1:21:23] is no activity. The only people there

[1:21:25] are virtually the people that operate

[1:21:26] the mall and the people that work at the

[1:21:27] mall.

[1:21:28] So, adding a mix of uses into the mix

[1:21:31] creates vibrancy, creates traffic,

[1:21:33] creates a self-sustaining

[1:21:35] uh story. So, it basically becomes a

[1:21:38] self-fulfilling prophecy that the

[1:21:41] residents that are there like having the

[1:21:43] amenities. They like being able to walk

[1:21:44] down go across this a short uh uh

[1:21:47] pedestrian walkway and get their coffee

[1:21:49] and go eat a bagel or do whatever

[1:21:51] they're going to do in the morning. Then

[1:21:52] they may come back for lunch. They may

[1:21:54] even work there or work nearby, and then

[1:21:56] all of a sudden it becomes activity

[1:21:57] throughout the day. So, the So, they are

[1:21:59] getting the benefit of that mix of use

[1:22:01] amenities. Consequently, they're

[1:22:03] typically going to pay a premium to live

[1:22:04] there because it's a nicer lifestyle.

[1:22:06] And all those businesses are benefiting

[1:22:08] from the fact that they have residents

[1:22:09] that are able to walk down, typically

[1:22:11] have good disposable income to be able

[1:22:13] to spend on higher price point items,

[1:22:15] and be able to make that a

[1:22:16] self-fulfilling prophecy. A traditional

[1:22:18] mall doesn't have that. A traditional

[1:22:20] mall relied on the model where Dillard's

[1:22:22] and J.C. Penney's and Macy's would come,

[1:22:24] and they would drive a million visitors

[1:22:27] there because everybody knew who they

[1:22:28] were and you used to go to a department

[1:22:29] store and everybody in the middle relied

[1:22:32] on on that business to bring all the

[1:22:34] traffic.

[1:22:35] We all know what has happened with

[1:22:36] Macy's and Dillard's and Bon-Ton and

[1:22:38] Sears. You go through the list of all

[1:22:39] department stores.

[1:22:41] When they when that business model

[1:22:42] collapsed, it took most malls with them.

[1:22:45] And so now there's not that anchor

[1:22:47] driver. So by creating this mix of uses,

[1:22:49] you're creating that activity that used

[1:22:50] to be brought by those anchors.

[1:22:53] So hopefully that helps. No, thank you.

[1:22:54] That makes that's helpful. Okay, I'm

[1:22:56] realizing we are definitely over time.

[1:22:59] Um

[1:23:01] the real numbers. Where are the real

[1:23:02] numbers? Are they here now or are they

[1:23:04] coming in the future?

[1:23:06] Certainly now. Real numbers as far as

[1:23:07] the actual dollar amounts of

[1:23:09] >> here. We've got a model and we certainly

[1:23:11] will Cody's

[1:23:13] or Professor will share all that and

[1:23:15] happy to.

[1:23:16] Okay, I don't know if we have time to do

[1:23:18] this now or if we need to do another

[1:23:20] work meeting to finish this.

[1:23:23] Yeah, so We'd be happy to come back probably and

[1:23:26] go through some more of the details and

[1:23:27] answer some of these questions. That was

[1:23:28] kind of what we

[1:23:30] All right, so yep, let's plan on another

[1:23:31] work meeting. We need to talk about more

[1:23:33] with this for sure. But thank you for

[1:23:35] all this extra information. Yeah, and

[1:23:37] let let me also just say this is

[1:23:39] tremendously exciting. This should be a wonderful asset to the city. So as you

[1:23:44] hear us deal with our challenges,

[1:23:46] especially as to the housing, no

[1:23:48] different than the challenges you have

[1:23:49] in trying to make the site work. Um

[1:23:52] and I'm convinced that we can find a way

[1:23:54] to make that work. But I'm very excited

[1:23:56] about what this will bring to the city.

[1:23:58] We're excited about the possibility.

[1:24:00] Thank you. Thank you.

[1:24:02] All right, we're going to go ahead with

[1:24:03] the presentation regarding the 2027

[1:24:05] budget. No.

[1:24:07] Uh

[1:24:08] yep, of administrative services.

[1:24:12] Presented by Dan Follett.

[1:24:18] Hey, if you get that contract to you you

[1:24:19] can earn a break. Yeah, you that 5

[1:24:21] minutes back.

[1:24:23] Let's see.

[1:25:02] Good. Good.

[1:25:04] Your tickets.

[1:25:05] You're up. Okay.

[1:25:12] Thank you municipal municipal council.

[1:25:15] Uh we appreciate the opportunity to talk

[1:25:16] about administrative services.

[1:25:18] Uh

[1:25:19] every year when we um do this

[1:25:22] presentation,

[1:25:23] uh we've asked the justice court to do

[1:25:26] an update on the justice court.

[1:25:28] Um Judge Schreiner is here today to do

[1:25:31] that update. He needs to leave uh as

[1:25:34] soon as possible. And so, we're going to

[1:25:37] move his portion to the beginning of the

[1:25:39] meeting.

[1:25:40] Uh so, judge, if you could come up and

[1:25:43] then uh Scott Henderson would also like

[1:25:45] to uh say a few words this time.

[1:25:59] Well, with Judge Schreiner's

[1:26:01] presentation, there's also a chance for

[1:26:03] a celebration.

[1:26:05] I think anytime uh

[1:26:08] longtime employee sticks with us for 30

[1:26:11] years, that is deserving of celebration.

[1:26:13] Judge Schreiner is celebrating that

[1:26:16] 30-year anniversary tomorrow. Isn't that

[1:26:19] amazing?

[1:26:21] Sorry. I'm sorry I'm taking from your

[1:26:23] You're going to shoot confetti confetti

[1:26:25] cannons, then go ahead and do that. But

[1:26:28] personally, I go back

[1:26:31] to my first days and

[1:26:33] Steve that at that time working in legal

[1:26:36] was a good friend. Was a good friend and

[1:26:39] I transitioned to a place where I didn't

[1:26:42] know anybody

[1:26:44] um at Provo City and you know, we talked

[1:26:47] a lot about basketball. We talked a lot

[1:26:49] about kids. We did those things, but

[1:26:54] that's something that really helped in

[1:26:55] an individual's transition. But Steve

[1:26:58] has always been that top performer and

[1:27:00] you can see that in where he's at now

[1:27:03] and he is amazing asset to our city and

[1:27:06] to our community and somebody I'm very

[1:27:10] proud of to be able to call a friend and

[1:27:13] we have his certificate for 30 years

[1:27:18] along with the recognition that he

[1:27:20] receives. And so if we could, let's

[1:27:23] congratulate Steve together on 30 great

[1:27:25] years.

[1:27:35] I'll thank you everyone.

[1:27:38] I started when I was 10 years old.

[1:27:44] Well, thank you. And the mayor's not

[1:27:47] here, huh?

[1:27:48] She had to leave and be in St. George. I

[1:27:50] hear. Okay.

[1:27:54] Well, members of the council then,

[1:27:57] uh last year

[1:27:58] that was my first address to the

[1:28:00] council.

[1:28:01] I stood before you prior

[1:28:04] to the NCAA basketball tournament last

[1:28:07] year.

[1:28:08] Uh last year's basketball team made it

[1:28:10] to the sweet 16. I don't know if you

[1:28:12] remember that.

[1:28:13] And this year, she's

[1:28:16] this year still a little sensitive about

[1:28:18] it. The first week of the tournament was

[1:28:19] played last week and the Cougars didn't

[1:28:21] make it out of the first round.

[1:28:24] So, bummer deal as it relates to that.

[1:28:26] But, being a former BYU basketball

[1:28:29] player,

[1:28:30] I thought it was appropriate that Dave

[1:28:32] McCann, in yesterday's Desert News

[1:28:35] article about this year's team,

[1:28:37] quoted the German poet, Ludwig

[1:28:41] J- Jacobowski.

[1:28:44] And he said, "Don't cry because it's

[1:28:46] over.

[1:28:47] Smile because it's happened."

[1:28:50] I kind of like that. Don't cry because

[1:28:52] it's over, smile because it happened.

[1:28:55] With fabulous freshmen, including Bear

[1:28:57] Backmire,

[1:28:59] and the football team,

[1:29:01] and AJ DeBons on the basketball team,

[1:29:04] and Jane Hedengren,

[1:29:07] uh in track and field, there's much for

[1:29:08] Cougars to smile about. And you all

[1:29:11] running Cougar Town,

[1:29:13] I have much to be smart much to smile

[1:29:15] about.

[1:29:17] If you don't know Jane Hedengren,

[1:29:20] Google her.

[1:29:21] Right, Brian?

[1:29:22] Google. Amazing. She's phenomenal.

[1:29:26] Anyway, I'm grateful for the opportunity

[1:29:28] to address you here today. I promise to

[1:29:30] be brief.

[1:29:31] It's been a little more than 2 years

[1:29:33] since I began my tenure as the Provo

[1:29:35] Justice Court Judge.

[1:29:37] Um and next tomorrow, as Scott said,

[1:29:41] will mark my 30 years

[1:29:44] having worked for Provo City, 28 in the

[1:29:47] Provo City Attorney's Office,

[1:29:49] many of those years with Brian.

[1:29:51] And I loved working in the Provo City

[1:29:53] Attorney's Office,

[1:29:54] and I have loved working in the Provo

[1:29:57] Justice Court as your judge.

[1:30:00] And my colleagues at the court are

[1:30:02] amazing.

[1:30:04] Um they are dedicated Provo City

[1:30:06] employees working to serve the citizens

[1:30:08] of Provo.

[1:30:10] And from my perspective, they are doing

[1:30:11] an excellent job.

[1:30:14] As you may or may not be aware,

[1:30:16] every four years Justice Courts are

[1:30:18] required to go through a recertification

[1:30:20] process.

[1:30:22] And our court did so most recently in

[1:30:24] 2023. So, we'll probably be doing that

[1:30:26] again next year. Is that right,

[1:30:28] Rhiannon?

[1:30:30] And as part of that recertification

[1:30:32] process, individual Justice Court judges

[1:30:35] are supposed to be meeting with uh the

[1:30:38] governing body

[1:30:40] that created the court

[1:30:42] at least yearly, which is why I'm here

[1:30:44] today.

[1:30:45] And part of that is to go over the

[1:30:47] budget of the court, to review

[1:30:49] compliance with the requirements and

[1:30:51] operational standards of the court, and

[1:30:53] to and to discuss other items of common

[1:30:56] concern.

[1:30:58] I'll leave the court's budget to people

[1:31:00] like Rhiannon, who's our court

[1:31:02] executive, and to Dan.

[1:31:06] But I want to assure you that uh Provo

[1:31:08] Justice Court meets, if not exceeds, the

[1:31:11] operational standards set by statute and

[1:31:14] the Judicial Council of the State of

[1:31:15] Utah.

[1:31:17] Provo Justice Court is one of the larger

[1:31:21] I know it's one of the larger, if not

[1:31:22] the largest,

[1:31:24] single-judge

[1:31:25] Justice Courts in the state. Last year,

[1:31:27] we handled

[1:31:29] about 11,000 cases.

[1:31:32] You can imagine, there's only 365 days

[1:31:34] in a year, of which I think there's 260

[1:31:37] that we're open.

[1:31:38] So, when you think about it that way,

[1:31:41] we handled over 1,900 misdemeanor

[1:31:43] criminal cases,

[1:31:45] uh over 2,200 small claims cases,

[1:31:49] and uh over 6,600 traffic cases.

[1:31:53] So, the police are out doing their job

[1:31:55] to keep Provo streets safe.

[1:31:58] So, we are pretty busy. Uh we We a large

[1:32:00] calendar this morning of

[1:32:03] uh over 70 cases, and we have a calendar

[1:32:06] this afternoon. So, I appreciate you

[1:32:07] letting me go first cuz I need to get

[1:32:09] back.

[1:32:10] I don't have any pressing concerns that

[1:32:13] I need to bring up with this body.

[1:32:15] Um if there are any questions or

[1:32:17] concerns that you have for me, feel free

[1:32:19] to ask. I know this is meant to be a

[1:32:22] short thing.

[1:32:24] But any member of this council, the

[1:32:25] mayor's office, the mayor

[1:32:28] is welcome to come to the justice court

[1:32:30] anytime. If you have issues, if you have

[1:32:32] questions, if you have concerns,

[1:32:35] feel free to talk to

[1:32:37] me directly, Rhiannon directly,

[1:32:40] and we'll respond, and you are again

[1:32:43] invited out to the justice court anytime

[1:32:45] you want to come.

[1:32:46] I want to thank uh each member of the

[1:32:49] council for the support that is given to

[1:32:52] the court,

[1:32:53] and for your dedicated service to the

[1:32:55] citizens of Provo.

[1:32:57] I want you to know that

[1:32:59] it doesn't go unnoticed.

[1:33:02] Um

[1:33:03] Again, I thank you for your time.

[1:33:05] I don't We have time for questions. If

[1:33:07] you have questions, feel free to ask.

[1:33:09] But Well, I would just say that with

[1:33:10] your efficiency, we should be thanking

[1:33:12] you. Okay. That's That's remarkable. Oh.

[1:33:15] Uh Scott's been out to see how we work,

[1:33:18] and

[1:33:20] if you have any questions, you can ask

[1:33:21] Scott too. He can give you an unbiased

[1:33:25] Okay. Well, thank you so much, Judge.

[1:33:26] Any questions for Judge before we go?

[1:33:28] All right. Thank you.

[1:33:29] >> you very much.

[1:33:34] Thank you, Judge.

[1:33:37] Uh just to go through uh administrative

[1:33:39] services, if we can turn to the next

[1:33:42] page. It goes to right here. Okay.

[1:33:45] Let's see if I can

[1:33:47] There we go. So, administrative services

[1:33:51] um

[1:33:52] uh includes these six uh divisions. So,

[1:33:54] city recorder, cybersecurity,

[1:33:57] facilities, finance, information

[1:34:00] systems, and then justice court that we

[1:34:02] just heard from. Most of the services we

[1:34:06] provide are focused internally.

[1:34:09] Justice Court obviously is is more

[1:34:11] external and City Recorder is a mix. We

[1:34:14] all have customers that are internal and

[1:34:16] external, but most of them are internal

[1:34:19] services that we provide in

[1:34:20] administrative services.

[1:34:22] In terms of the questions that were

[1:34:25] asked by the council, unfunded and

[1:34:27] underfunded needs, we'll talk about

[1:34:29] those on the next slide when we discuss

[1:34:32] supplemental requests for the FY27

[1:34:35] budget.

[1:34:36] Fee changes, there are no fee change

[1:34:39] request within administrative services.

[1:34:43] Requests that will increase ongoing

[1:34:45] operation expense, again, we'll talk

[1:34:47] about those in the supplemental

[1:34:49] requests.

[1:34:50] And then in terms of current budget

[1:34:52] constraints, at this point in time there

[1:34:54] are none.

[1:34:55] And council budget priorities, we always

[1:34:59] welcome and hope that we can be very

[1:35:01] helpful to the council in providing any

[1:35:04] kind of information information or

[1:35:05] support that they need for that you need

[1:35:09] for your priorities.

[1:35:11] In terms of cybersecurity and when we

[1:35:13] talk about supplemental request, we have

[1:35:16] a couple of requests that that we're

[1:35:18] asking for this year.

[1:35:20] Um

[1:35:21] The first one is contractual increases

[1:35:23] and these are are are simply contracts

[1:35:26] that we have in place,

[1:35:28] primarily Arctic Wolf that we use

[1:35:31] to secure our networks.

[1:35:34] And we have contractual agreement we

[1:35:36] have a you know,

[1:35:38] terms in those agreements where there's

[1:35:40] escalation in price on a yearly basis

[1:35:42] and so that's what that $20,200

[1:35:45] is.

[1:35:46] Um the other area that we are requesting

[1:35:50] additional support in cybersecurity

[1:35:53] is we would like to add an analyst.

[1:35:55] Right now, we have one person, uh,

[1:35:58] Tyler, who's with us today, and, uh,

[1:36:01] he's just exceptional in terms of

[1:36:03] monitoring monitoring our network not

[1:36:06] only during normal business hours here,

[1:36:10] but offsite, uh, weekends, vacations,

[1:36:14] sick leave, you name it. We would like

[1:36:16] to be able to have a little more backup

[1:36:19] there. Uh, unfortunately, the the bad

[1:36:22] guys, uh, aren't letting up their

[1:36:24] pressure at all. In fact, it only

[1:36:26] intensifies with each passing day, each

[1:36:29] passing year, each passing, you know,

[1:36:31] global, uh, event that takes place.

[1:36:35] And so, that's one area that we would

[1:36:37] like to increase the budget. In terms of

[1:36:40] information systems, we have contractual

[1:36:42] increases, uh, and those primarily

[1:36:45] relate to existing,

[1:36:47] uh,

[1:36:48] software that we have in place, OnBase,

[1:36:51] Cayenta, and CityView.

[1:36:53] And so, those increases total 18,960.

[1:36:57] Uh, last year, we implemented a new

[1:36:59] website, uh, for the city, and the

[1:37:03] ongoing support of that website is

[1:37:06] 124,000.

[1:37:08] Uh, and that's what you see that

[1:37:10] increase there for. And then, we have,

[1:37:12] um,

[1:37:13] some hardware, central disk storage

[1:37:16] infrastructure that that provides

[1:37:18] support for throughout the city, uh,

[1:37:21] including public safety, and, uh, the

[1:37:24] equipment itself is starting to get

[1:37:27] to be near end of life. Uh, and so, we

[1:37:30] need to replace that, and that's

[1:37:32] 410,000. Now, the 410,000,

[1:37:35] we're still working on that to see if

[1:37:38] there's ways that we can, um, spread

[1:37:41] that out over a few years, um, if there

[1:37:44] are some of it some of the equipment

[1:37:46] that we can replace and some we can

[1:37:48] defer uh, but in total it's the 410,000.

[1:37:52] And then Justice Court again we have

[1:37:54] contractual increases. The two primary

[1:37:57] drivers there are the building that the

[1:38:00] Justice Court is in is leased and in

[1:38:04] that lease agreement there are increases

[1:38:06] on an annual basis. The other item is

[1:38:09] that we contract for security services

[1:38:13] at the Justice Court and so

[1:38:16] some of it in in that 17,908

[1:38:21] relates to the security.

[1:38:23] So those are

[1:38:24] >> So is that the the deputies you talked

[1:38:26] about the contracted Yeah, so when you

[1:38:28] go to the Justice Court they're not

[1:38:30] Provo City police officers. They're

[1:38:34] it's a security service that my understanding is and Rihanna can

[1:38:39] talk to it more than I can but that the

[1:38:42] Justice Court has found that to be a

[1:38:46] very efficient and cost-effective way

[1:38:49] and a secure way to provide security at

[1:38:52] the Justice Court. Is that fair to say

[1:38:54] Rihanna? Yes and having

[1:38:57] we have

[1:38:58] Provo City police officers at the door

[1:39:00] screening people or handling security it

[1:39:03] creates this conflict of interest if

[1:39:05] it's the same old system of shaking

[1:39:07] people down.

[1:39:12] Um

[1:39:13] so

[1:39:15] I won't go through every one of these. I

[1:39:17] will say that the department we just

[1:39:20] have excellent employees in

[1:39:21] administrative services and the the

[1:39:23] accomplishments are numerous and

[1:39:25] significant. Um

[1:39:28] and and this is just a very very highest

[1:39:32] level of kind of what has been

[1:39:34] accomplished over the past year. In City

[1:39:37] Recorder

[1:39:39] Heidi earned certified municipal clerk

[1:39:42] and Utah certified clerk designations

[1:39:44] both last year.

[1:39:47] Implemented a number of improvements in

[1:39:49] document management. Did 24 employee

[1:39:51] newsletters

[1:39:54] and was elected to positions with the

[1:39:56] Central Utah Recorders Association and

[1:39:58] Utah Municipal Clerks Association. So I

[1:40:01] think it's fair to say that that we have

[1:40:03] a recorder that's very very active in

[1:40:05] the in the recorder community and that

[1:40:08] brings a lot of value to Provo City.

[1:40:10] In terms of cybersecurity,

[1:40:13] provided incident response services

[1:40:15] 24/7,

[1:40:17] risk and advisory support for multiple

[1:40:19] application and system reviews,

[1:40:22] 66 technology projects

[1:40:25] that improve security

[1:40:27] and updated strategies. Continues Tyler

[1:40:30] works on

[1:40:31] consistently staying ahead of the bad

[1:40:33] guys and does an excellent job of that.

[1:40:36] Key accomplishments for facilities,

[1:40:39] completed an emergency sewer line

[1:40:41] replacement at fire station three,

[1:40:44] did upgrades to service now which is a

[1:40:45] software that

[1:40:48] facilities utilizes to provide service

[1:40:50] throughout the city to all the

[1:40:52] departments, did a remodel of station 26

[1:40:55] kitchen, new construction at the

[1:40:56] airport, stucco at the Peaks Arena

[1:41:00] and started a five-year elevator

[1:41:02] replacement plan at the library. Our our

[1:41:04] elevators at the library are nearing

[1:41:06] end-of-life.

[1:41:08] Finance,

[1:41:10] received the Government Finance Officers

[1:41:12] Association Distinguished Budget Award

[1:41:16] and then also we received GFOA

[1:41:21] recognition for the annual comprehensive

[1:41:23] financial report and popular annual

[1:41:25] financial reports.

[1:41:28] We

[1:41:29] received a clean audit opinion on our

[1:41:31] audited financial statements. We issued

[1:41:33] wastewater revenue bonds this year and

[1:41:36] completed a significant a significant

[1:41:38] Kyenta software upgrade uh in

[1:41:40] conjunction with customer service

[1:41:43] uh and our information systems group.

[1:41:46] Uh information systems received 20

[1:41:49] 25 Utah Information Technology

[1:41:51] Excellence Award, uh the 2025 Visionary

[1:41:54] Digital Inclusion Trailblazer Award, the

[1:41:57] ArcGIS Open Data Hub uh they launched,

[1:42:01] and again they they also supported 66

[1:42:04] technology projects. Uh and and a very

[1:42:07] significant project is they launched the

[1:42:10] redesigned provo.gov uh website.

[1:42:13] And then finally the Justice Court

[1:42:16] completed 88% of traffic cases within 90

[1:42:19] days, 89% of criminal cases within 180

[1:42:22] days, and 98% of small claim claims

[1:42:26] cases uh with within 270 days.

[1:42:30] Um so as you can see,

[1:42:32] we provide a very diverse set of

[1:42:34] services, but uh

[1:42:36] um I think we've done that in an

[1:42:38] excellent fashion and plan to do that

[1:42:40] again this year.

[1:42:42] So I just asked council if you have any

[1:42:43] questions or

[1:42:48] Any questions?

[1:42:51] Councilor, sorry I couldn't see you.

[1:42:54] Um I just have a couple questions on the

[1:42:57] servers that you you have. I'm just just

[1:43:01] curious why why do we have it on prem?

[1:43:03] Is that like required by law?

[1:43:05] I'm going to let Josh address that.

[1:43:08] So specifically we're talking about the

[1:43:10] disk that's on prem. Uh we have a lot of

[1:43:13] services that are actually still here.

[1:43:14] We are required by law to maintain

[1:43:17] localized server rooms in the material

[1:43:19] scoring and animal dispatch center. So

[1:43:21] we look at the cost of disk in the cloud

[1:43:24] compared to this disk that we run

[1:43:26] locally, it's

[1:43:28] way less cost to the citizens of Provo.

[1:43:30] So it almost doubles our cost to If were

[1:43:32] to move it all to the cloud.

[1:43:34] What do what do we have on the cloud?

[1:43:36] We have a various set of services.

[1:43:38] Seeing things like Workday's cloud-based

[1:43:40] services. We have a very hybrid level

[1:43:42] approach. But each time we look at the

[1:43:44] actual costs over a 7-year cost outlay,

[1:43:46] we compare that to say if it makes sense

[1:43:50] to move to the cloud, we do so. Okay.

[1:43:53] In this case, it just Yeah, the it

[1:43:55] doesn't

[1:43:56] make sense monetarily.

[1:43:58] All right, good question. So, the 410

[1:44:00] servers, is that a complete

[1:44:03] replacement or is that one

[1:44:05] So, in this case specifically, disk

[1:44:07] space storage, not necessarily the

[1:44:09] servers themselves. So, if you go back

[1:44:11] in time, each time you've done like a

[1:44:13] one-time allocation, then these piece of

[1:44:16] the hardware we have in form some mix

[1:44:19] between spinning disk and volatile RAM.

[1:44:22] They are under support contracts and

[1:44:24] they end up going to end of life into

[1:44:25] support approximately year seven. So,

[1:44:28] when we start reaching that point, we

[1:44:29] can no longer get emergency repair

[1:44:32] services. We have to look at an

[1:44:33] alternative platform. And again, so the

[1:44:35] cost of an extended support contract in

[1:44:37] comparison to doing a replacement, which

[1:44:40] also just covers replacement of disk,

[1:44:42] but we also see an extreme growth curve

[1:44:46] and how much disk we need, so we try to

[1:44:48] cover that at around the 6-7 year mark.

[1:44:50] We are now at 7-7 and 1/2 years. So, we

[1:44:53] were able to extend it a little bit, but

[1:44:55] we are at that spot where we need to

[1:44:56] replace the disk. So, that's helpful. My

[1:44:59] question was what percentage of our

[1:45:02] of of that capacity is being replaced by

[1:45:05] 410? Complete replacement or Oh, yeah,

[1:45:08] it's it's 100%.

[1:45:09] >> 100%. Correct.

[1:45:11] Thank you. And we couple with that,

[1:45:13] there are some systems that have

[1:45:15] localized disk on the server themselves.

[1:45:17] So, this is the the primary storage

[1:45:19] part. Yeah.

[1:45:21] Uh related question I had was on the on

[1:45:24] your line item that said

[1:45:26] forget the exact word, it was like

[1:45:27] website hosting and other digital

[1:45:29] services. I was just curious what those

[1:45:31] other digital services were as part of

[1:45:32] the 100 and something thousand

[1:45:35] 124,000.

[1:45:37] I can take this as well if you'd like.

[1:45:38] Yes, please. So, the the council was

[1:45:41] part of this project within RFP for a

[1:45:43] digital platform which is the old

[1:45:45] website was not ADA compliant and it

[1:45:47] also did not have any online services

[1:45:51] uh that would let people interact

[1:45:52] directly with us. We also had a desire

[1:45:55] by the council to have a mobile

[1:45:56] app which the mobile app is included

[1:45:58] here. Also, if any of you use

[1:46:00] SeeClickFix which is 311's report an

[1:46:02] issue type service, that's included in

[1:46:04] that platform. We went with a product

[1:46:06] called CivicPlus which puts all under

[1:46:07] that one

[1:46:09] platform. And so, we did is we had some

[1:46:11] one-time funding that carried us through

[1:46:13] for the first portion of it. So, we're

[1:46:14] going to have that spot where we have

[1:46:15] ongoing funding to continue that

[1:46:17] service.

[1:46:19] Does that answer that question for you?

[1:46:20] >> is the 124 an annual it's like an annual

[1:46:23] SaaS service?

[1:46:24] >> And this is a quick version of it. This

[1:46:26] is 100% private. Okay. And that would

[1:46:28] continue? Correct. It would continue.

[1:46:30] It's ongoing.

[1:46:33] Thank you. Thanks.

[1:46:35] All right. Any other questions?

[1:46:39] Thank you.

[1:46:40] >> much.

[1:46:44] All right. Next, we have a the 2027

[1:46:47] budget for public works. It's being

[1:46:49] presented by Jimmy Knight, the public

[1:46:51] works administration division director.

[1:46:56] Who now?

[1:46:57] He's coming.

[1:46:57] >> Oh. Huh. Okay.

[1:47:10] Thanks for this opportunity. We're uh

[1:47:12] going to go through the public works

[1:47:13] budgets.

[1:47:15] I've got it organized by um division of

[1:47:17] our department.

[1:47:20] Uh we'll start with water and waste

[1:47:22] water, which is our water resources

[1:47:23] division.

[1:47:28] The, um,

[1:47:30] the budget's broken down here for each

[1:47:32] fund. Uh, the water fund is $21 million

[1:47:34] revenue

[1:47:36] broken up by these four sect- uh, three

[1:47:38] sections and the CIP.

[1:47:40] And the waste water as well at $28

[1:47:42] million

[1:47:44] with two operating sections and, uh, CIP

[1:47:47] expenditures there.

[1:47:51] Um, I I I wanted to note that the water admin and the waste water

[1:47:56] reclamation budgets also include, um,

[1:47:59] debt service payments.

[1:48:01] So, it might might not compare with some

[1:48:04] of the other operating funds where it's

[1:48:05] not just the cost of the employees and

[1:48:07] their, um,

[1:48:08] their supplies. It's

[1:48:10] those additional expenses.

[1:48:13] So, in water resources in FY26, the

[1:48:16] current year, we had asked for, uh,

[1:48:18] increase for

[1:48:20] the new sewer treatment plant coming

[1:48:21] online and be online for 12 months.

[1:48:24] And, uh, so we're we're currently

[1:48:26] through going through that now and it

[1:48:28] looks like we've we've budgeted

[1:48:29] sufficiently. We're still,

[1:48:31] um, learning, uh, as we go about, you

[1:48:34] know, seasonality and things like that

[1:48:36] of the of the treatment plant.

[1:48:39] Um, but looks like we we budgeted

[1:48:41] sufficiently with that request. We're

[1:48:42] not asking for additional money there in

[1:48:45] reclamation in '27.

[1:48:48] Uh, in '27 in these two divisions or at

[1:48:51] least two funds, water fund, uh, we're

[1:48:53] asking for

[1:48:55] drinking water plant staff and operating

[1:48:57] budget.

[1:48:58] So, we have our drinking water plant

[1:49:00] that is anticipated to be finished, uh,

[1:49:02] December or January.

[1:49:04] And so, we're uh, requesting two

[1:49:06] positions to be added in July to be there as the plant gets finished

[1:49:12] as, um, installers are there putting in

[1:49:14] the equipment, learning from them to

[1:49:16] make sure we know how it runs.

[1:49:18] Uh being prepared for when it comes

[1:49:19] online and then two others or three

[1:49:21] others in January

[1:49:24] once the plant comes online.

[1:49:27] Um Jimmy, is this the one for you?

[1:49:30] Yes. Okay.

[1:49:33] Yeah, so that it's going up very fast.

[1:49:35] Um it's getting enclosed and um

[1:49:38] we're excited about its progress. We're

[1:49:40] um just anticipating now in the 27

[1:49:43] budget to start staffing it and running the plant.

[1:49:47] Uh in distribution, we're requesting an

[1:49:49] increase to the overtime budget based on

[1:49:51] historical use. You know, that's uh

[1:49:53] overtime budget is used on

[1:49:56] um

[1:49:57] break response and you know, on call for

[1:50:01] um

[1:50:03] for any calls that we get about the

[1:50:05] water system on on off hours.

[1:50:08] And the wastewater fund, we're

[1:50:09] requesting a full-time wastewater

[1:50:11] collections operator. We feel like with

[1:50:13] an additional person, we can do a better

[1:50:15] job of um

[1:50:16] maintaining the sewer system, the sewer

[1:50:18] collection system, the pipes,

[1:50:20] and the manholes.

[1:50:22] Um we would anticipate an additional

[1:50:24] person being able to focus more on

[1:50:25] repairs

[1:50:27] uh of that equipment or of that

[1:50:29] infrastructure

[1:50:31] and um

[1:50:32] continuing the other work we do to

[1:50:35] keep the pipes flowing

[1:50:37] and uh respond to any backups.

[1:50:41] And also a similar collections overtime

[1:50:42] budget

[1:50:44] uh requests based on historical actuals.

[1:50:50] As far as fee changes in water resources

[1:50:52] in the water fund, um I've circled here

[1:50:54] the option three that was selected by

[1:50:56] the council

[1:50:58] in uh June of last year,

[1:51:01] which um

[1:51:03] anticipates a 6% rate increase in FY 27.

[1:51:08] In the current calendar year,

[1:51:10] we had some questions that we responded

[1:51:12] to about um how that would be applied to

[1:51:14] the council. It would be

[1:51:16] uh done to each component of the rate

[1:51:19] resulting in a 6% revenue increase

[1:51:21] overall.

[1:51:23] And um

[1:51:25] we had a question also about how those tiers have people have

[1:51:29] responded to those tiers so far and

[1:51:33] uh we don't have a lot of that

[1:51:34] information yet because the the tiers

[1:51:36] went into effect in September. So, we're

[1:51:38] we'll we'll learn more about that as we

[1:51:40] go through the summer months coming up.

[1:51:44] Councilor Boden.

[1:51:46] Jimmy, do we have like a hard dollar

[1:51:47] figure on which how much that's going to

[1:51:50] raise for each one of the tiers?

[1:51:52] Yeah, do we have a picture of the rates?

[1:51:55] Like tier one's going to be $5, tier

[1:51:58] two's going to be $10, tier three's

[1:52:00] going to be $15. Do you have

[1:52:02] I have that, but not in the

[1:52:04] slides. Can you send that to us? I can.

[1:52:07] Thank you. You want to know what the

[1:52:08] dollar amount of each tier We want to

[1:52:11] know what the dollar amount of each tier

[1:52:12] >> chart what this 6% looks like after.

[1:52:14] Yes, I have that.

[1:52:19] So, in the waste in the water fund,

[1:52:21] there's no other um fees that we're

[1:52:23] anticipating

[1:52:24] changing. In wastewater, we are looking

[1:52:26] to add a

[1:52:27] um

[1:52:28] two fees related to

[1:52:30] sewage that gets dropped off at the

[1:52:31] plant by waste haulers, people who drive

[1:52:33] the trucks that um

[1:52:35] that clean out septic systems

[1:52:37] typically and um

[1:52:40] making sure that we're recovering the

[1:52:41] costs of our employees being there after

[1:52:43] hours

[1:52:44] or when there's excessive um debris in

[1:52:48] the in the sewage.

[1:52:50] I'm trying to find a word a different

[1:52:52] word than sewage, but I'm not going to

[1:52:54] go.

[1:52:54] It's okay. We have strong stomachs here.

[1:52:57] Mhm.

[1:52:59] Um and then here's a list of our water

[1:53:01] some of our key accomplishments this

[1:53:03] year.

[1:53:04] I'm not going to go through each one and

[1:53:06] but um happy to answer any questions if you've had a chance to see these.

[1:53:13] Uh here's the wastewater fund.

[1:53:18] So our next division is public services

[1:53:21] which includes the streets operating

[1:53:22] budget which is

[1:53:25] a $3 million operating budget.

[1:53:28] Not revenue generating.

[1:53:30] Uh storm water fund $6.5 million which

[1:53:33] is uh

[1:53:35] a storm water fee on the utility bill

[1:53:37] that funds uh 2.8 million in operations

[1:53:39] and 3.3 of capital projects.

[1:53:43] Sanitation fund has $7 million of

[1:53:45] revenue which primarily goes for the

[1:53:48] operations. It's not a capital intensive

[1:53:51] operation. Um

[1:53:53] it's mostly just picking up the cans and

[1:53:55] operating the compost yard.

[1:53:59] Which is a enormous task.

[1:54:02] I didn't want to downplay that.

[1:54:05] Um

[1:54:06] and then the vehicle replacement uh

[1:54:08] vehicle maintenance fund

[1:54:10] where our fleet

[1:54:11] technicians and mechanics they keep

[1:54:15] maintain all the city fleet.

[1:54:17] And then the vehicle replacement fund

[1:54:18] which I'll get into a little bit later

[1:54:20] where we purchase the vehicles for the

[1:54:22] city.

[1:54:23] Do you know what I saw? I don't know if

[1:54:25] this is the right time to ask, but

[1:54:26] something about the vehicles you

[1:54:27] mentioned that you're just going to

[1:54:30] Was it garbage trucks? Just lease them

[1:54:32] every year and sell them or something?

[1:54:34] Can you explain how that's more

[1:54:36] financially sensible?

[1:54:38] Yeah, so what the the fire truck well

[1:54:41] Is it fire trucks? It No, it's it's

[1:54:43] sanitation. Okay.

[1:54:45] Warren, do you want to The fire trucks.

[1:54:46] It's probably have better to have an

[1:54:48] expert explain that and the sanitation

[1:54:50] maintenance costs that we're trying to

[1:54:51] avoid.

[1:54:52] So there is a tremendous amount of

[1:54:56] dollar figures for you, but there are a

[1:54:57] tremendous amount of labor

[1:54:59] um and

[1:55:00] cost of parts to go into the sanitation

[1:55:03] trucks to keep them running.

[1:55:04] Um

[1:55:05] They are vehicles that are become

[1:55:08] commercial tested. They are full

[1:55:09] throttle, break, full throttle, break

[1:55:11] about 1,800 times a day.

[1:55:15] And they get battled and just destroyed.

[1:55:18] They require a great deal of maintenance

[1:55:21] and repair. By replacing them on a

[1:55:24] regular basis every 12 months, we are

[1:55:27] introducing a new vehicle into the fleet

[1:55:30] that does not have as many cycles on it

[1:55:33] and it will not have as many breakdowns.

[1:55:36] So, I know it sounds crazy to say, "Hey,

[1:55:39] we're going to buy a brand new truck

[1:55:40] every year."

[1:55:41] But realistically, if you look at the

[1:55:44] maintenance and repair costs to what it

[1:55:46] would be to be able to cycle one out,

[1:55:49] there's quite a bit difference. And I

[1:55:50] apologize, I'm not prepared to tell you

[1:55:52] that exactly number. I didn't have that

[1:55:53] information. I'm sorry. And so, we just

[1:55:55] sell one vehicle every year, too? Is

[1:55:57] that the idea?

[1:55:57] >> Yes.

[1:55:58] How many of the sanitation trucks

[1:56:01] do we have in the fleet?

[1:56:03] As far as residential residential

[1:56:04] garbage cans?

[1:56:08] I believe, off the top of my head, we

[1:56:09] have three

[1:56:10] vehicles for roll-off containers. We

[1:56:13] have two front loads.

[1:56:16] And then as far as residential cans, I believe we have 16.

[1:56:22] But again, I would have to double-check

[1:56:23] that one. The 16 would do the blue,

[1:56:26] green, and black bins? Correct. Okay.

[1:56:29] Yes. And those are historically the

[1:56:31] vehicles you've had the most problems

[1:56:32] with.

[1:56:33] Yes, that is that is correct. I mean,

[1:56:36] every vehicle has its its problems. However,

[1:56:40] we do spend the vast majority of our our

[1:56:43] labor

[1:56:44] inside our shop working and keeping

[1:56:46] these on the road and keeping them up.

[1:56:48] So, you're not technically just using

[1:56:49] them a year. You're saying every year

[1:56:51] you're replacing one, which means it's

[1:56:52] like every 16 years or 20 years.

[1:56:54] >> So, what we're doing is is you purchase

[1:56:56] a new vehicle, that vehicle a year later

[1:57:00] they'll buy it back. They'll buy it back at 85 to 90% of that

[1:57:05] value. Okay. They're a very still a very

[1:57:07] high commodity item, so there's a a lot

[1:57:09] of huge market out there. So, we can get

[1:57:12] a lot of them back. So, you're only

[1:57:13] paying that small difference between the

[1:57:15] new and what you get that buyback at.

[1:57:18] And that's less than we're paying now.

[1:57:19] >> And that is that cost that cost

[1:57:21] difference is substantially less than

[1:57:23] what we pay on an ongoing maintenance.

[1:57:26] Cuz typically we'll replace a a

[1:57:28] sanitation sanitation truck one truck

[1:57:31] every year or two every year through

[1:57:33] that whole 16.

[1:57:35] And that becomes cuz then we're now

[1:57:37] running trucks that are 7, 8, 9 old and

[1:57:40] those older trucks are just constantly

[1:57:43] >> So, now are we running them all one year

[1:57:45] then? That's what Eventually we're just

[1:57:48] doing We're cycling that out. So,

[1:57:50] eventually all the people have basically

[1:57:52] new trucks coming in every year. And

[1:57:55] then we just pay that cost difference

[1:57:57] between the new and then the buyback.

[1:57:59] >> Okay. Cool garbage trucks.

[1:58:02] Very cool.

[1:58:03] Thank you. My tax would save us.

[1:58:08] As far as supplemental requests, um in streets we're requesting two

[1:58:12] full-time streets maintenance workers

[1:58:15] to do some work that is currently being

[1:58:16] done by contractors

[1:58:18] that we feel we can do more efficiently

[1:58:20] in-house. And by having these uh

[1:58:22] additional employees

[1:58:24] when they're not working on the concrete

[1:58:25] removal and trans trans trench patching

[1:58:29] they will be able to be used for the

[1:58:31] other services that streets provide such

[1:58:33] as um snow plowing in the winter.

[1:58:36] Um allowing us to improve that response.

[1:58:40] So, those would be funded by funded by

[1:58:42] existing funds um that would just be

[1:58:44] moved to positions instead of

[1:58:48] paying for the outside work.

[1:58:50] In stormwater we're requesting a

[1:58:52] increase to the part-time budget by

[1:58:54] $7,000 again based on historical usage.

[1:58:58] The fleet fund we've we've talked with

[1:59:00] fire about um

[1:59:03] the impact to the general fund as well

[1:59:05] as

[1:59:06] uh the fleet fund for an emergency

[1:59:09] vehicle technician additional

[1:59:12] emergency vehicle technician

[1:59:14] which we're continuing to work with uh

[1:59:15] with them and with administration to to

[1:59:17] talk through alternatives and and

[1:59:19] impacts potential impacts of that.

[1:59:22] In sanitation we're asking for a

[1:59:24] full-time scale house attendant position

[1:59:26] which would be a full-time person at the

[1:59:28] compost yard

[1:59:30] which would enable us to have it open 5

[1:59:32] days a week instead of two

[1:59:34] and increase um the the availability of

[1:59:37] other services such as uh another

[1:59:39] recycling drop-off and potentially glass

[1:59:41] drop-off.

[1:59:44] And this would be funded by um

[1:59:46] a change to the

[1:59:48] uh what's we refer to as the rooftop fee

[1:59:51] which is a dollar per

[1:59:52] uh

[1:59:54] per account. We're looking to change

[1:59:55] that to be $1 per

[1:59:59] uh

[2:00:00] residential household.

[2:00:02] And so right now we have some accounts

[2:00:04] that are like for an HOA where we have

[2:00:06] 200 garbage cans it's only one account

[2:00:08] they get charged $1

[2:00:10] where a single family home is also only

[2:00:11] get is also getting charged a dollar. We

[2:00:13] want to make sure that

[2:00:15] that's being distributed appropriately.

[2:00:17] I have a quick question.

[2:00:19] >> Yes. Um going back to the supplemental

[2:00:21] request on the compost yard person. Yes.

[2:00:24] So on the bit about recycling it

[2:00:27] mentioned the possibility of moving the

[2:00:31] recycling roll-off from over by the fire

[2:00:33] station so we wouldn't have it there

[2:00:35] anymore.

[2:00:37] It's much more convenient to get to that

[2:00:39] in the middle of the city than it is to

[2:00:41] go down to the transfer yard or

[2:00:43] something.

[2:00:44] Can we keep both?

[2:00:46] I think we're looking at alternatives

[2:00:47] for for locations. So far, yes. We are

[2:00:50] to keep it there. Okay. All right. We're looking at different things for

[2:00:54] recycling. It's just so challenging cuz

[2:00:57] anywhere we set it

[2:00:59] the the amount of overtime, we just get a

[2:01:03] lot of illegal dumping. And it becomes a challenge. We're trying

[2:01:07] to set them in places that are strategic

[2:01:10] that they can have some kind of fire

[2:01:12] safety. Maybe we're going to try it

[2:01:13] potentially to see if you set it next to

[2:01:15] a fire station maybe that will

[2:01:17] discourage people from Do we get illegal

[2:01:20] dumping with the glass recycling? Not

[2:01:22] there because it's But often times what

[2:01:24] you see is somebody they'll they'll

[2:01:26] throw some tires there or you know, just

[2:01:28] set a tire there. And it's incredible.

[2:01:31] Yeah.

[2:01:33] What people what they do. It's so

[2:01:35] That's the challenge we try to balance.

[2:01:37] So, but right now we're trying to keep

[2:01:39] it and then try to expand it, but

[2:01:42] still resolve that issue.

[2:01:43] >> Okay. I will say that the glass

[2:01:45] recycling is one of my favorite errands

[2:01:48] to do. Such a great stress reliever to

[2:01:50] go and like throw the glass. Right now,

[2:01:53] I would say Okay.

[2:01:56] But if the property sells and it gets

[2:01:59] redeveloped, then we got to rethink what

[2:02:01] we want to do with that. So, there may

[2:02:03] be opportunity to incorporate it with

[2:02:05] the development. We're starting to look

[2:02:06] at maybe some standards on there.

[2:02:09] Um and incorporating those in our

[2:02:10] development standards for recycling as

[2:02:12] part of the development process. And in

[2:02:15] commercial spaces on that, do you mean

[2:02:16] take through the space? We'll probably

[2:02:18] come back to council for those

[2:02:21] code changes or possibility to look at

[2:02:23] that too as to how the commercial

[2:02:25] businesses they need to put recycling

[2:02:27] facilities on there. Okay. On our

[2:02:29] property so. Okay. Thank you.

[2:02:36] Um I think the last item was the

[2:02:37] sanitation overtime budget which um

[2:02:40] was concluded in supplemental with with

[2:02:42] other over times based on um

[2:02:44] historical

[2:02:45] usage.

[2:02:48] Um and then here's a description of the

[2:02:50] fee that I tried to explain um

[2:02:54] that would help us fund the the

[2:02:57] position of the composture.

[2:02:58] Just out of curiosity, why didn't we do

[2:03:00] this 6 years ago?

[2:03:03] Or last year or year before? I mean, why

[2:03:05] are we doing it

[2:03:07] This seems like such a no-brainer. I'm

[2:03:08] just wondering.

[2:03:10] Good question. Shame you have a

[2:03:11] response? Well, over time when this was

[2:03:13] first implemented in 2011, it was per

[2:03:15] account.

[2:03:16] And so the thought process is we would

[2:03:18] be capturing all the residential houses,

[2:03:21] but over time since that time every

[2:03:23] account that was set up you would think

[2:03:25] that would be tied to a residential home

[2:03:27] or residential unit. What we found is it

[2:03:30] wasn't. So you have all these HOAs that

[2:03:32] come in and they have 150 houses, they

[2:03:35] have one account which is the HOA

[2:03:37] account, and so you're only charged one

[2:03:39] day one And so over time that has just

[2:03:41] like we've realized what it was intended

[2:03:43] was for all residential units. So what

[2:03:45] we're going to do is we're going to fix

[2:03:47] that instead of an account it'll be tied

[2:03:49] to like for instance the UTF it'll be

[2:03:52] tied to the power meter. That way it'll

[2:03:54] capture all those little HOA's, all

[2:03:56] those little things. Uh bravo.

[2:03:59] Lo- love it.

[2:04:01] Councilor Bobden.

[2:04:03] I know it's just a dollar. Is it dollar

[2:04:05] a month? A dollar a month?

[2:04:07] >> Okay, but for me

[2:04:09] I don't have a green waste can.

[2:04:12] I don't get mulch from the composting

[2:04:15] station.

[2:04:16] So explain to me why someone like me

[2:04:19] would be charged a dollar, $30 a year

[2:04:22] for a service I don't even use. And it's

[2:04:24] not just the composting, it's also for

[2:04:26] some of it's recycling. We have all

[2:04:28] these additional costs that we don't tie

[2:04:30] to any specific

[2:04:31] >> But I don't even have a recycling bin. A

[2:04:33] can. We also it's also help our um

[2:04:36] spring and fall cleanup.

[2:04:38] Our spring and fall cleanup has gotten

[2:04:41] massive and that is a benefit for the

[2:04:43] entire community.

[2:04:45] Um we we ask people to use the the the

[2:04:48] spring and fall cleanup.

[2:04:50] Um

[2:04:51] there we're not sure how how to

[2:04:53] recapture that. This is a long way to to

[2:04:55] do it. Um that's one of the big ones. We

[2:04:57] just keep expanding all these Other one

[2:04:59] is My Hometown. If you know My Hometown,

[2:05:02] I go help

[2:05:03] you know, the the various communities

[2:05:05] and they bring those things in. That has

[2:05:07] been a very successful

[2:05:09] um

[2:05:10] implementation of, you know, helping

[2:05:12] communities. That has just gotten so big

[2:05:14] and we have all the costs associated.

[2:05:16] This has helped helped with that cost.

[2:05:20] Do you need to clean up, Becky?

[2:05:22] Well, I I have I have a vehicle that I

[2:05:23] can do that, but I mean, I can imagine

[2:05:25] people coming to me and saying, "I don't

[2:05:27] even have a truck, so I can't even use

[2:05:28] the spring cleanup." And so now I'm

[2:05:32] paying for other people to clean up when

[2:05:34] I can't even clean up. So I'm just

[2:05:36] trying to figure out how do I explain

[2:05:38] this to a resident of why they're paying

[2:05:40] $30 a year.

[2:05:42] So so If they're two good dudes, do you do you do you do you do you do

[2:05:46] You've been paying this for 6 years and

[2:05:47] you're not in HOA.

[2:05:50] So everybody The only thing we're doing

[2:05:52] now is bringing it on to people that

[2:05:54] haven't been paying it.

[2:05:56] So this won't affect you or any of your

[2:05:57] neighbors. Right. This this is bringing

[2:06:00] it to the forefront, right? So Make them

[2:06:02] aware of it. Exactly. And so it even me,

[2:06:05] I I didn't even realize I was paying a

[2:06:06] dollar a month for composting container.

[2:06:10] So anyway,

[2:06:11] Yeah, so how do I explain this to

[2:06:13] people?

[2:06:15] I I again, not everybody uses every

[2:06:18] program of the city, but you have the

[2:06:20] ability to dump all your green waste

[2:06:22] there for free. You're have the ability

[2:06:25] to use the glass. Do we allow them to do

[2:06:27] that for free at the Is it a $5 charge

[2:06:29] to come in and dump green? No, I'm just

[2:06:31] getting rid of waste.

[2:06:33] So, just residents. We don't allow

[2:06:35] commercial. And so, those are some

[2:06:38] benefits that you have when you take

[2:06:39] advantage of them or not.

[2:06:42] So, I don't know how to tell you. We

[2:06:43] want you to take advantage of it. What is the expected incremental revenue

[2:06:47] increase from this change?

[2:06:50] So, right now, they're going to be about

[2:06:52] a little over 200,000. Right now,

[2:06:53] there's about 19,000 accounts that are

[2:06:56] just really that I think once we switch

[2:06:58] that, we're we'll jump up to like 26,000

[2:07:01] accounts. So, kind of multiply that out,

[2:07:03] that's a little over 200,000.

[2:07:05] And that would be used to pay for that

[2:07:06] person. And that would pay for the the

[2:07:08] person and all those other

[2:07:10] um

[2:07:11] facilities and those operations.

[2:07:14] The other thing I would mention is that

[2:07:16] by having the compost yard, uh it allows

[2:07:18] us to divert a lot of the that waste

[2:07:20] that would typically just be in the

[2:07:23] uh landfill.

[2:07:24] Um and and be put at the compost yard

[2:07:27] instead, which I think

[2:07:29] benefits everyone. So, I don't know if

[2:07:30] that helps, but Such a good idea.

[2:07:33] I've got a a quick question about the

[2:07:35] different overtime requests or budgets.

[2:07:39] So, I'm

[2:07:42] I really appreciate that you had the

[2:07:44] actual numbers for the past few years so

[2:07:46] that we could see how what had been

[2:07:48] requested was not matching what we were

[2:07:50] actually spending. That was really useful.

[2:07:54] Um and it seems like even for like the

[2:07:56] distribution over time,

[2:07:59] it was astonishingly high in 2025. Like,

[2:08:01] why was it double anticipated cost?

[2:08:07] 2025, we had the lead and copper rule

[2:08:10] where we had to get out and verify water

[2:08:12] services throughout the community. So,

[2:08:14] we were going out looking at a major

[2:08:16] percentage of all of our water metals to find out if they're galvanized

[2:08:22] um or copper or poly. So, some of that

[2:08:25] overtime was for

[2:08:28] the service and inventory.

[2:08:30] A lot of it was still for brakes.

[2:08:33] But

[2:08:34] that that number did go over because of

[2:08:37] lift cover.

[2:08:38] Okay. That's why I wanted to show

[2:08:40] multiple years so

[2:08:42] all those aberrations could be

[2:08:44] discounted and show the overall trend

[2:08:46] regardless of those one time.

[2:08:48] And on sanitation, like it was already

[2:08:51] fairly high 148 and we're asking 200.

[2:08:55] Does it make sense to have that much in

[2:08:57] overtime budget or would it make more

[2:08:59] sense to hire more people so that you're

[2:09:01] not doing overtime?

[2:09:04] I think eventually it'll get there.

[2:09:06] Right now it still makes sense to We we

[2:09:08] did look at that. It still makes sense

[2:09:10] to do the overtime. A lot of the

[2:09:12] overtime is all these extra things that

[2:09:15] we keep adding on to help with the

[2:09:16] community, you know, street cleaning and

[2:09:18] all those kind of things. And right now

[2:09:20] it still makes sense to just do that as

[2:09:22] overtime than actually get another

[2:09:24] person. We are getting another person.

[2:09:26] One of a lot of that overtime too is our

[2:09:29] better combo share.

[2:09:30] She says we have one individual that

[2:09:32] takes that. And so you're you're

[2:09:35] the hours that it it is open in there

[2:09:37] during the week plus the weekend, you

[2:09:40] kind of need two people or else that

[2:09:42] person continues to get additional

[2:09:44] overtime. This person will actually help

[2:09:46] somewhat reduce a lot some of that

[2:09:48] overtime.

[2:09:49] Okay. Thank you.

[2:09:54] Councilor Adams. Speaking of overtime,

[2:09:57] do we have the Buckley job figures in

[2:09:59] yet?

[2:10:00] Yes.

[2:10:01] And you send those to us? Yes.

[2:10:04] Thank you.

[2:10:05] Correct.

[2:10:09] All right again, key key accomplishments

[2:10:11] in each of the sections, street, storm

[2:10:13] water, sanitation and fleet. You know,

[2:10:15] it goes into some of the details about

[2:10:17] how many cans we collect, how many

[2:10:19] pieces of equipment we maintain.

[2:10:22] Um as far as a fleet replacement, this

[2:10:25] uh represents the uh the original

[2:10:28] proposal of the fleet advisory

[2:10:30] committee,

[2:10:31] which includes uh representatives from

[2:10:32] each of the general fund departments.

[2:10:34] These are the general fund vehicles that

[2:10:36] were initially identified for

[2:10:38] replacement in the coming year. We're

[2:10:40] going to continue to meet with them and

[2:10:42] um revise that number and and uh

[2:10:46] you'll see the the end result of that

[2:10:47] when we get to the proposal when the

[2:10:49] budget's proposed.

[2:10:51] Just an example of the types of

[2:10:53] equipment that um

[2:10:56] the uh fleet division maintains and

[2:10:59] we're sure replace.

[2:11:02] Engineering, our uh last division Oh, is

[2:11:04] 15 the entire fleet of patrol cars?

[2:11:08] No.

[2:11:08] >> No. I think there's uh I think there are

[2:11:10] 122. 122. 122 patrol units. Oh, yeah.

[2:11:17] I thought they were shared.

[2:11:20] So, engineering, uh again a general fund

[2:11:22] division, um

[2:11:24] there are some revenues associated with

[2:11:25] this uh division, but I I didn't put

[2:11:27] them on here.

[2:11:29] Uh 2.5 million dollar operating budget

[2:11:31] and accomplishments, um

[2:11:34] and then at the bottom we've got uh a

[2:11:36] supplemental request for a full-time

[2:11:38] engineering technician. We're We're

[2:11:40] proposing to use existing funding for

[2:11:42] one engineer to fund two technicians.

[2:11:45] So, we wouldn't need additional budget,

[2:11:46] we just need additional full-time

[2:11:48] equivalent approved in the budget.

[2:11:56] And that may be my last one.

[2:11:59] Any other questions? Councilwoman

[2:12:01] Whitlock.

[2:12:02] Um

[2:12:03] I was luckily not part of the water rate

[2:12:06] discussion last year.

[2:12:08] Um but I do Could you go back to that

[2:12:10] slide? I just have some questions if I

[2:12:11] may ask them. We can play videos.

[2:12:15] I got pretty heavy. I know.

[2:12:18] So, I just want to make sure I'm

[2:12:19] understanding this. This is

[2:12:22] the incremental increase every single

[2:12:23] year as a schedule? Yes.

[2:12:25] >> Yes.

[2:12:26] So, we're going to well over double the

[2:12:28] cost of water over the next

[2:12:30] Yeah, I have seriously issues with this.

[2:12:33] Am I wrong about that? That's right?

[2:12:35] Okay, I have to say. Okay.

[2:12:37] Yeah, it's to pay for the pipe.

[2:12:40] That's why they're so unhappy.

[2:12:41] >> That's what they say.

[2:12:43] Do you believe that we this increase is

[2:12:46] needed? It's like a

[2:12:49] paramount need for infrastructure.

[2:12:55] Yes, we we have pipe that is corroding

[2:12:59] underground and leaking and and our

[2:13:02] crews are out every weekend

[2:13:04] repairing main lines.

[2:13:06] Um and

[2:13:08] based on the evaluation of our water

[2:13:10] system, we feel like there's a minimum

[2:13:13] level of funding to keep our water

[2:13:15] system operating the way it is,

[2:13:18] providing

[2:13:20] the greatest water quality in the state.

[2:13:22] >> You have the greatest water. And so that that

[2:13:26] increase is based on keeping that

[2:13:29] funding level to where we can maintain

[2:13:31] our system and replace our old

[2:13:33] infrastructure.

[2:13:36] So,

[2:13:38] I guess what I So, what after the

[2:13:40] schedule is done, what is our margin

[2:13:41] What are our margins become on like the

[2:13:43] incremental gallon?

[2:13:47] I'll I'll have to prepare that and get

[2:13:49] back to you. Cuz it is inter- I mean, I understand the logic, but it is

[2:13:52] interesting to like essentially we're

[2:13:54] dramatically increasing our our gross

[2:13:56] margins on our water to cover a bunch of

[2:13:59] fixed asset costs. That's essentially

[2:14:01] the strategy we're doing, right?

[2:14:02] Yep.

[2:14:03] Okay. And a lot of cities have gone to

[2:14:05] bonding instead. Yeah, and then and then

[2:14:08] I'm just wondering like have we done

[2:14:09] exper- Like cuz I think again, uh this

[2:14:11] is the economist in me, but like

[2:14:13] there's a profit maximizing rate of of

[2:14:16] water that sort of And again, I know

[2:14:17] there's conservation, but if you're just

[2:14:18] So, there's different lenses you can

[2:14:20] look at this with, but if you're just

[2:14:21] thinking about it, there's some price

[2:14:23] elasticity associated with water. As

[2:14:25] rates go up, I conserve, I use less. And

[2:14:27] so, like how confident are we we're not

[2:14:29] going beyond the profit maximizing rate?

[2:14:31] Like I've done a ton of these studies,

[2:14:32] but you can you've you know, you fidget

[2:14:34] with pricing and then you see you can

[2:14:36] you see

[2:14:37] volume of consumption change, and

[2:14:38] sometimes you think more price equals

[2:14:40] more profit, but actually often times

[2:14:42] you go past that point at which the

[2:14:43] marginal cost is high where you actually

[2:14:45] bring down your profit because people

[2:14:47] are just like, "This is too expensive.

[2:14:48] I'm not going to pay it."

[2:14:49] So, I'm just wondering now like how

[2:14:51] confident we are in some of these

[2:14:52] things.

[2:14:53] Yeah, so we we do have multiple

[2:14:54] components of the rate. There's the base

[2:14:55] rate that was done regardless of the

[2:14:57] usage. And then when our our And that's

[2:14:59] just like a flat service rate being

[2:15:01] connected to the water, correct? Yeah.

[2:15:04] And then and so, our consultant that

[2:15:06] provided the rate proposal

[2:15:09] uh factored in the I can't remember the

[2:15:11] percentage of the elasticity of demand

[2:15:14] for

[2:15:15] water with the price as the price went

[2:15:17] up and and calculated that into the

[2:15:19] forecast so that as the price as the

[2:15:22] consumption went down that we would

[2:15:24] still reach the certain revenue

[2:15:25] thresholds we're seeking. And that was

[2:15:27] just based on assumptions from other

[2:15:28] cities or something like It's industry standard for

[2:15:31] >> an industry standard assumption and we

[2:15:33] didn't run any experiments to see how

[2:15:34] Provo reacts to it. No, and it's it's

[2:15:38] really hard to to to pinpoint because

[2:15:41] the consumption changes because of so

[2:15:42] many reasons other than because of the

[2:15:44] price.

[2:15:45] But then we'll get but we will start to

[2:15:46] get some year-over-year data of the two

[2:15:50] like of the two cohorts before and after

[2:15:52] where we can start to see if that

[2:15:53] assumption was true or not in the

[2:15:54] modeling. Yes. Okay.

[2:15:57] Now, prior to this increase

[2:16:00] we were you people were using what was

[2:16:02] it like a million less in water?

[2:16:06] And our revenue had gone down

[2:16:08] because of

[2:16:10] Yes, but again, we've had

[2:16:13] you know, some years where it's really

[2:16:14] dry, some years when it's really wet.

[2:16:15] It's it's really hard to pinpoint if

[2:16:17] it's the price that's changing, the

[2:16:18] usage, you know, just the overall

[2:16:20] sentiment about

[2:16:22] conservation. I'm sorry, we're getting

[2:16:24] so in the weeds here, but do we do we

[2:16:25] have like a any regression modeling that

[2:16:27] tries to like

[2:16:29] account for these various factors year

[2:16:30] over year? Because we could we could we

[2:16:32] could like essentially tag every single

[2:16:34] variable you just said it cost the last

[2:16:35] 30 years and try to come up with Have we

[2:16:37] ever done any work like that?

[2:16:38] >> Yeah.

[2:16:40] I don't think so. Okay, anyway. The

[2:16:41] reason why I ask it's funny you said

[2:16:43] that cuz I was talking to one of my

[2:16:44] professors from BYU at Econ. He's like,

[2:16:46] "We'd love to do some regression, you

[2:16:48] know, work for the city and I would if

[2:16:49] you have any project ideas." So maybe

[2:16:50] this is a good one.

[2:16:54] Good citizens have been conserving

[2:16:55] really well year after year. Just keeps

[2:16:57] going down.

[2:16:59] Yeah, and I expect it this year with our water year, people will probably be

[2:17:03] inclined to conserve on their own even

[2:17:05] without us asking them to just because

[2:17:08] we didn't have a winter.

[2:17:10] On a slightly different topic, I have a

[2:17:12] question about

[2:17:15] the water resources and our staffing

[2:17:18] levels on that. So that was a really

[2:17:20] interesting thing to read that EPA

[2:17:23] recommended that we should have 14

[2:17:25] people and we have seven full-time and

[2:17:27] two part-time. Um you know, so we're pretty close more or less to what

[2:17:33] Orem's doing, but we're far below those

[2:17:35] three cities that are the comparables

[2:17:37] that were listed. So how is it that we

[2:17:40] are able to get away with fewer

[2:17:43] employees right now? Like

[2:17:46] and

[2:17:47] can we sustainably keep doing that or is

[2:17:50] this something where we're borrowing

[2:17:51] time?

[2:17:52] I think we're borrowing time. We we do

[2:17:54] have the best employees out there.

[2:17:56] They're working hard, but but yeah,

[2:17:59] this this the system, the wastewater

[2:18:02] system continues to grow and

[2:18:05] we add more miles of and we have the

[2:18:07] same staffing levels or maybe even under

[2:18:10] what we've had in the past trying to

[2:18:12] maintain that increasing pipeline.

[2:18:16] Um we've also got new technologies where

[2:18:19] we can do a lot of the services that we

[2:18:21] have hired out in the past. Uh and by

[2:18:24] doing those in-house we're saving money.

[2:18:27] But using more of our employees' time.

[2:18:29] >> Yes. Yeah. Uh it was just cuz we've often gotten reports from police

[2:18:35] that we are not meeting, you know, some

[2:18:37] sort of industry standard for the number

[2:18:39] of officers for our population size. So

[2:18:41] it was really surprising to me to see

[2:18:42] that we're in a similar situation with

[2:18:46] water.

[2:18:47] So And specifically on wastewater

[2:18:50] collection?

[2:18:50] >> On wastewater, yeah.

[2:18:53] Oh, for fun.

[2:18:58] Okay, any other questions?

[2:19:01] I know I would love to see more charts

[2:19:04] for the water, which I know does not

[2:19:06] excite anybody. Maybe Jeff. Is that

[2:19:08] water? But

[2:19:10] I would love to see our conservation,

[2:19:13] the different differences.

[2:19:17] I want to somehow get it. I want to

[2:19:19] understand better our use per acre.

[2:19:22] That's something that's still my my

[2:19:24] issue with this whole thing.

[2:19:26] I think we're so disproportionately

[2:19:27] We're not being fair

[2:19:29] per size of people's

[2:19:33] land or whatever.

[2:19:35] But um yeah, so I don't know what

[2:19:39] I don't even know what to ask for.

[2:19:41] But I want to understand exactly how

[2:19:44] it's going up, the pricing,

[2:19:47] our conservation, how that's been going

[2:19:48] and how our conservation's been

[2:19:49] affecting our revenue.

[2:19:52] Um

[2:19:54] yeah.

[2:19:56] Well, if unfortunately

[2:19:58] you can't really look at

[2:20:00] Well, we still have it in the last 10

[2:20:02] years.

[2:20:02] >> Yes, the jump. Yeah, but we but we

[2:20:04] there's years where we increased every

[2:20:06] year 4%, right?

[2:20:07] >> Right.

[2:20:08] I want to compare those years to

[2:20:10] what we're

[2:20:11] assuming you were six and eight.

[2:20:13] And and the hard part like Jimmy was

[2:20:15] mentioning, those years where we were

[2:20:17] increasing 4 or 5% every year,

[2:20:19] it was also at the tail end of

[2:20:21] a long-term drought and there was

[2:20:23] constant messaging

[2:20:25] everywhere you looked, TV, radio,

[2:20:28] newspaper of conserve, conserve, we have

[2:20:30] no water. And so it it

[2:20:32] you know, maybe with the help of of

[2:20:35] BYU or some other

[2:20:37] some of our consultants, we can look at

[2:20:39] that and how that plays into

[2:20:42] what's what's been happening, but we

[2:20:44] have we have seen a decrease in overall

[2:20:46] water use,

[2:20:48] whether that's our rates going up or the

[2:20:51] messaging for conservation.

[2:20:53] >> there's absolutely a mindset of

[2:20:55] conservation in Provo, without a doubt.

[2:20:57] Yeah, there's no need to change that.

[2:20:58] >> Like you knock doors and it's

[2:20:59] undeniable. Yeah. And it's in every

[2:21:01] neighborhood.

[2:21:03] So.

[2:21:05] Okay.

[2:21:07] Thanks, Jimmy. Nothing else? Jimmy? Do

[2:21:09] you want to bring something back to this

[2:21:11] presentation or did you Are we We can

[2:21:14] just get it in Then we can do it memos

[2:21:15] and emails.

[2:21:16] >> We want it in memo.

[2:21:18] Thanks, Gordon.

[2:21:20] All right. Can I I should just like one

[2:21:21] more thing as we're like

[2:21:22] >> Yeah, specify I I can I can write an email, but the

[2:21:26] other thing that

[2:21:27] again, I I apologize. I think I was in

[2:21:29] the heat of the campaign and wasn't

[2:21:30] following this super closely, but like

[2:21:31] the other thing that I'm just curious

[2:21:33] about, I think I understand the logic of

[2:21:35] the tiers, but I'm going to I'm just

[2:21:37] curious why we decided to go and tier

[2:21:39] based on lot size as opposed to just a

[2:21:41] consumption-based tier.

[2:21:44] That I just love to hear like the

[2:21:46] rationale behind that in more detail and

[2:21:48] like your all's thoughts would be really

[2:21:49] helpful.

[2:21:50] >> We didn't do it based on lot sizes.

[2:21:52] >> We did We did by meter size.

[2:21:54] meter size instead of just

[2:21:55] pure consumption.

[2:21:57] Yes, they they

[2:21:59] yes, we can provide you understand what

[2:22:01] I'm saying is like yes yes it is also

[2:22:03] meter size.

[2:22:06] Uh

[2:22:08] Yeah, explain just my understanding is

[2:22:10] based on the the size of the pipe

[2:22:12] effectively property based on

[2:22:14] consumption based on the

[2:22:16] just like the total amount of water you

[2:22:17] use. It is based on the total amount of

[2:22:19] water you use. But it's a it's a hybrid

[2:22:22] model.

[2:22:23] For the different Can you help me out

[2:22:24] here? We can explain it. Okay, I'll just

[2:22:26] yeah, just explain to me. Get me caught

[2:22:27] up. Thank you.

[2:22:29] All right, we're going to take a

[2:22:30] 5-minute break. We're still totally

[2:22:32] running way behind.

[2:22:33] But

[2:22:38] No, we are not caught up.

[2:22:41] We're half an hour behind. I'm sorry.

[2:22:43] So, you have 5 minutes.

[2:22:47] Pardon?

[2:22:51] Our next presentation is at 3:00. 2:53

[2:22:53] 2:55

[2:22:56] How tall is it worth?

[2:23:02] It

[2:23:03] has to do with how big your property

[2:23:05] Yeah. Yeah.

[2:23:06] So, it gives somewhat of a break because

[2:23:09] someone can be conserving awesomely, but

[2:23:12] they have bigger and bigger property

[2:23:15] orchard. If you've got a bigger pipe

[2:23:17] Now, presentation regarding the 2027

[2:23:19] budget of development services.

[2:23:22] Thank you.

[2:23:24] I really like really like working with

[2:23:26] Gordon Hayden public works cuz they

[2:23:27] always make me look good compared to

[2:23:29] their budget and my budget is small and

[2:23:31] simple.

[2:23:33] Hopefully we'll help get help get you

[2:23:34] back on track as far as your time.

[2:23:37] So, over the past 5 years development

[2:23:39] services has eliminated three positions

[2:23:41] to help balance the city's budget. Two

[2:23:43] of those positions were at the

[2:23:44] management level.

[2:23:46] You'll see in this presentation that

[2:23:47] we're proposing eliminating another

[2:23:49] position in order to fund creating a

[2:23:52] more needed position.

[2:23:56] There are There was no mid-year budget

[2:23:58] adjustment.

[2:24:00] I came to you the budget adjustments

[2:24:02] were going to ask for for the coming

[2:24:04] year.

[2:24:05] Are these things here?

[2:24:07] Parking enforcement needs two license

[2:24:10] plate readers. One is to update an

[2:24:12] existing one and one is a new one.

[2:24:15] Sandy can talk to you in more detail if

[2:24:16] you'd like, but these LPRs are not what

[2:24:19] the police talked to you about a couple

[2:24:20] weeks ago. They do not access the all

[2:24:22] the private information, personal

[2:24:23] information that the police department

[2:24:25] has access to. So, that's not really an

[2:24:28] issue with these LPRs.

[2:24:31] This uh 600,000 from development

[2:24:33] services uh from uh RDA is going to repay public works

[2:24:39] for the fill that's been put at the site

[2:24:42] down on Lake View Parkway and the I-15.

[2:24:45] There's been a lien put on that property

[2:24:46] that would repay

[2:24:47] this money

[2:24:49] um when the property sells.

[2:24:51] Wait, I'm I'm sorry. Can you explain

[2:24:52] that again?

[2:24:54] This is a $600,000 transfer from RDA

[2:24:58] funds to public works to reimburse

[2:25:00] public works for the trucking costs of

[2:25:03] moving fill onto the site at Lake View

[2:25:05] Parkway and the I-15.

[2:25:08] Like the Walmart land? Yes.

[2:25:11] Oh, is this part Okay, is this part of

[2:25:13] the 1 million that we put towards the

[2:25:14] grocery store?

[2:25:16] Um this is part of the entire package.

[2:25:18] This

[2:25:19] There's 1 million of COVID money, that's

[2:25:21] separate from this. This is in addition

[2:25:23] to that. It helps buy down the ask from

[2:25:27] the city on the property.

[2:25:29] Whoever develops that property in the

[2:25:30] future, whether it's Walmart or somebody

[2:25:32] else, they have to lift the property.

[2:25:34] It's a value to them. So, they've signed

[2:25:37] a lien to guarantee the city's

[2:25:39] repayment.

[2:25:39] >> are getting that money back. We're

[2:25:40] actually getting the value of fill,

[2:25:42] which is more like 900,000.

[2:25:44] >> Okay.

[2:25:44] >> And the 900 will go back into the RDA.

[2:25:47] Okay, for some reason I understood that

[2:25:49] um

[2:25:50] we were doing the million for a grocery

[2:25:52] store towards that and they didn't have

[2:25:54] to pay it back. So

[2:25:55] >> That's the That's the COVID money.

[2:25:57] That's the

[2:25:59] But it's not going towards the fill

[2:26:00] dirt. No. So what's what's the COVID

[2:26:03] money doing right now?

[2:26:05] Is it just sitting there? Yes, that's

[2:26:07] right. It hasn't been spent.

[2:26:12] Uh the last one is for the building

[2:26:14] division.

[2:26:15] Um

[2:26:17] a bottleneck we have in our department

[2:26:20] in the building division is that plan

[2:26:21] review.

[2:26:22] We have one plan one person does plan

[2:26:24] reviews plan checks.

[2:26:26] Um the $17,000 is for an AI um program

[2:26:30] to help us with plan review.

[2:26:33] Okay, I would like to eventually hire a

[2:26:36] full-time another full-time plan

[2:26:38] reviewer, but this is the first step

[2:26:41] towards solving that problem in a much

[2:26:43] more economical way than paying for

[2:26:45] another employee. Okay.

[2:26:47] And this may end up solving our problem

[2:26:49] completely. Well, we'll have to see.

[2:26:51] This is for one-year contract to test

[2:26:53] this out and see how it

[2:26:54] works. Honda has already done quite a

[2:26:56] bit of testing with this, so we have a

[2:26:57] high level of confidence with it.

[2:27:00] Also, we feel like we need a new field

[2:27:02] inspector.

[2:27:03] The field inspectors have been spread

[2:27:05] pretty thin and it's not really

[2:27:06] sustainable. We're kind of sticking our

[2:27:08] necks out as far as that goes.

[2:27:10] So, I'm going to propose shifting some

[2:27:12] things around to be able to fund that.

[2:27:15] Well, but you're paying for it with an

[2:27:17] open planner position.

[2:27:18] >> Right. And you think you're not going to

[2:27:19] miss that?

[2:27:21] open planner position has been open

[2:27:23] for quite some time. We haven't filled

[2:27:24] it. I mean, I've got two planner

[2:27:26] positions. One I just filled. New plan

[2:27:29] new planner just started yesterday. And

[2:27:31] planner Natasha Robinson just resigned a

[2:27:33] week ago.

[2:27:34] So, I'll be filling her spot, but this

[2:27:36] is the third position that we have had

[2:27:38] unfilled in the department for

[2:27:40] a couple years.

[2:27:41] Okay. Councilwoman Ogden.

[2:27:44] Okay.

[2:27:45] So, we keep on rotating through

[2:27:47] planners.

[2:27:48] Why? Cuz Aaron is so hard to work for.

[2:27:52] So, if we replace Aaron, then

[2:27:54] everything's going to be great?

[2:27:56] Um

[2:27:58] Yeah, I was actually uh surprised that

[2:28:00] we lost Nancy. She got offered a got a

[2:28:02] job at BYU where she was before she came

[2:28:04] here. Um

[2:28:06] so, that was a surprise to us. Um but I

[2:28:09] think

[2:28:10] uh and the planner before that we lost

[2:28:12] simply because her husband graduated and

[2:28:14] took a job in Montana.

[2:28:15] So, I don't think it's really a

[2:28:17] management issue. I think it's just Or a

[2:28:19] pay issue or No, we've worked hard to

[2:28:22] make our pay compatible and competitive

[2:28:25] and

[2:28:26] HR's been very good at working with us

[2:28:27] on that.

[2:28:30] You just think it's just uh

[2:28:32] Poor timing, yeah. Fluke, yeah. I don't

[2:28:35] expect it to continue.

[2:28:38] Aaron, lighten up.

[2:28:40] Now, the state has

[2:28:43] things in place where we have to do

[2:28:44] inspections so many days and that,

[2:28:46] right?

[2:28:47] Yes, um Are we we're still meeting those

[2:28:50] goals and that?

[2:28:50] >> Yes, still meeting those goals now, but

[2:28:53] still plan review is a backlog and so,

[2:28:55] if we can get

[2:28:58] rather than taking 21 days to get an

[2:28:59] industrial plan approved, it would be

[2:29:02] nice to be able to do that in 14 or 7.

[2:29:04] Oh, for sure. That's what we're talking

[2:29:05] about. Like seven. Yeah.

[2:29:13] The areas that we're not quite covering

[2:29:15] costs are the parking permit

[2:29:18] areas. We're getting better, but we're

[2:29:20] still not full recovery. Then RDLs are

[2:29:23] still short because we're not allowed to

[2:29:24] raise this fee enough to cover

[2:29:27] inspections. The state law won't allow

[2:29:28] us

[2:29:29] to cover inspections in an RDL. But,

[2:29:31] we're

[2:29:32] >> working on getting that redone, staff.

[2:29:33] Yes, that's still coming to you.

[2:29:35] Yeah. Just quickly, how much would we

[2:29:38] need to charge on the parking permit

[2:29:41] fees in order to get full cost recovery?

[2:29:44] Cuz we do have a lot of people reaching

[2:29:46] out that are just appalled that we've

[2:29:48] gone from $15 to 100 per year. And so,

[2:29:52] if if we could reiterate how much the

[2:29:55] city is still subsidizing it, that might

[2:29:57] be helpful. You're talking about the

[2:29:58] front.

[2:30:02] Flip it up. Turn his volume up. All

[2:30:03] right, thanks.

[2:30:07] When I calculated University Garden,

[2:30:11] and if we ever decided to do something

[2:30:14] on Slate Canyon, it came to about

[2:30:16] approximately $297

[2:30:19] a year per resident

[2:30:21] per permit.

[2:30:23] Wow.

[2:30:25] That's up 15, right?

[2:30:27] That's up from 15. That's up from 15.

[2:30:30] And so, the 100,

[2:30:32] we started, like you guys know, with

[2:30:34] Carter about half of that.

[2:30:35] And then, it just seemed to be more cost

[2:30:38] absorbing. Um, Council Woodcock. What is

[2:30:41] the, um, like the patrol or level of

[2:30:45] service assumption baked into that?

[2:30:47] Um,

[2:30:49] depending on the size. University Garden

[2:30:51] is so much bigger. Um,

[2:30:53] I figure we figure about

[2:30:57] 20 to 25%

[2:30:59] Um, for University Garden, we have

[2:31:02] difficulty

[2:31:03] uh difficulty hitting the entire area in

[2:31:07] one night. So, we kind of

[2:31:09] uh

[2:31:10] alter that a little bit. Slate Canyon, I

[2:31:13] figured about 2 or 3%. But again, it's

[2:31:17] still all of that those costs that we

[2:31:20] gave,

[2:31:21] it's it's very

[2:31:23] What what I'm more asking is how often

[2:31:25] are we

[2:31:27] patrol or like uh patrolling or checking

[2:31:29] as a given

[2:31:31] house or given place? Like I said, um

[2:31:34] University Garden, we cannot get through

[2:31:36] the entire permit area in one single

[2:31:39] night. So, hopefully we're checking a residence once every

[2:31:46] three or four times a week, but we're

[2:31:49] trying to alter it. Um because of with

[2:31:53] the Carter bill, University Garden, uh

[2:31:56] we have the parking management on

[2:31:58] Sepulveda Canyon. And I'm not trying to

[2:31:59] be vague, I'm just trying to kind of do

[2:32:01] the same thing. Plus all of the other

[2:32:03] parking management that we do,

[2:32:05] um and the calls that we're taking from

[2:32:07] that for dispatch. So, on average it's

[2:32:08] like once every couple days?

[2:32:11] It depends on the area. Like I said,

[2:32:12] 25%. So, during the week it's getting

[2:32:14] hit about 25% of the time. Yeah. But

[2:32:15] other areas like Saticoy are 2%. Yeah.

[2:32:18] Or 2% so Saticoy is 2%

[2:32:21] And so, we will actually go down the

[2:32:24] road, you know, Sepulveda Canyon

[2:32:26] multiple times on different calls. Okay.

[2:32:28] But Does that answer your question? Or

[2:32:31] did that give it a little bit of a

[2:32:32] better answer? I'm sorry. Yeah, I think

[2:32:35] part of the question is is it necessary

[2:32:38] really to patrol those every single

[2:32:40] night in order to get compliance? Like

[2:32:43] do we need to spend that much employee

[2:32:46] time in order to fulfill the

[2:32:48] requirements of the program? Yes. Yes.

[2:32:50] Okay. Yes, absolutely. Yes. And it also

[2:32:53] right now we're Um so, any of your old

[2:32:56] license plate readers, they all factor

[2:32:57] into that or down to us.

[2:33:00] But

[2:33:01] yes, especially in the University Garden

[2:33:04] area and Carter bill, absolutely. Good.

[2:33:07] Thank you.

[2:33:13] So, this is my proposal to pay for the

[2:33:15] things that we've asked for.

[2:33:17] Um

[2:33:23] All right, these would be reoccurring costs, rather.

[2:33:27] Um

[2:33:28] we believe we can pay this out of the

[2:33:29] increased plan check fee, and we can pay

[2:33:32] for this out of the

[2:33:34] uh

[2:33:35] trading the planner position.

[2:33:43] Um as uh we understand very well, the

[2:33:45] zoning enforcement has been a top

[2:33:46] priority for the council, and um the

[2:33:49] blitzes have been very successful. Uh

[2:33:51] but there's certainly increasing

[2:33:52] caseload. So, if we continue with those

[2:33:55] blitzes on a regular basis, we may be

[2:33:57] back in another year or so asking for a

[2:34:00] another zoning enforcement person to

[2:34:01] keep up with the increased caseload that

[2:34:04] this could cause.

[2:34:09] Uh performance measures, um

[2:34:12] the disparity in these numbers are that

[2:34:16] at this point we were counting zoning

[2:34:18] verification applications as planning

[2:34:20] applications, and they probably

[2:34:21] shouldn't have. So, we stopped counting

[2:34:24] them here.

[2:34:26] Um

[2:34:27] if you were to throw this back in, you'd

[2:34:28] probably be looking at another 50 or 75

[2:34:31] added to that number.

[2:34:33] Um

[2:34:34] but that's a big reason for the

[2:34:35] disparity there.

[2:34:40] Just some of the accomplishments of the

[2:34:42] department. So, one thing I would like

[2:34:43] to point out in particular are the

[2:34:46] written warnings that parking gets. I

[2:34:48] know there's a lot of discussion about

[2:34:50] parking and the job they do. I feel like

[2:34:52] Sandy has does a really good job

[2:34:55] balancing giving warnings and educating

[2:34:58] people on what they can and cannot do

[2:35:00] with the writing citations.

[2:35:02] And with the potential revenue, do we

[2:35:04] take those things to collections, or how

[2:35:07] come Yes. Yep. And we have seen an

[2:35:10] increase in what we've been able to

[2:35:11] collect, and so that's helping to fund

[2:35:14] some of the things we've talked about.

[2:35:18] Other key accomplishments in planning

[2:35:20] and in CBG and home.

[2:35:27] The the increase in the down payment

[2:35:29] assistance has been huge.

[2:35:31] That's a big jump in that number.

[2:35:37] Yeah, down payment assistance has gone

[2:35:38] to 60,000. So, yeah.

[2:35:42] And then, um

[2:35:44] Melissa, get ready cuz you're up.

[2:35:55] Bill, so you're sure in that you don't

[2:35:58] need any more employees?

[2:36:01] Um

[2:36:03] I feel like it's a miracle you've asked

[2:36:05] for anything.

[2:36:06] Yeah, so

[2:36:09] um I try to be very careful I know you

[2:36:11] >> sure that everybody's busy 40 hours a

[2:36:13] week, but not strained.

[2:36:16] I'm want to make sure that our resources

[2:36:18] are all being used fully before I ask

[2:36:20] for more people because of what a large

[2:36:22] ongoing expense that is to the city.

[2:36:25] So, I feel like what we're doing now is

[2:36:26] manageable,

[2:36:28] but I need a field inspector

[2:36:30] and I need help with plan review. If the

[2:36:32] things I propose solve our problems,

[2:36:34] we'll be good. If not, then I'll be back

[2:36:36] and I'll probably have to ask for more

[2:36:38] help on the building side building

[2:36:39] division.

[2:36:40] If that's

[2:36:41] >> we're sacrificing in planning, just so

[2:36:43] you know,

[2:36:44] um the reduction in planning staff has

[2:36:47] affected long-range planning. We're not

[2:36:48] doing the neighborhood plans the way we

[2:36:50] used to and we have been sidetracked

[2:36:52] with station area plans and some other

[2:36:54] long-range projects like writing the new

[2:36:55] zoning ordinance, but we're not getting

[2:36:57] the neighborhood plans done the

[2:36:58] long-range projects. That's what's been

[2:37:00] sacrificed in losing positions.

[2:37:04] But, you'll come to us before the next

[2:37:06] budget season if something is a problem.

[2:37:08] Yes. Okay.

[2:37:09] Long as Scott lets me.

[2:37:14] Okay.

[2:37:15] Um my budget stuff's pretty simple.

[2:37:18] Um

[2:37:22] we have increased our

[2:37:24] um

[2:37:24] the amount of down payment assistance

[2:37:26] that we've given in the past year, which

[2:37:27] is really um it's really great. We did a

[2:37:30] few minor changes or to the programs

[2:37:33] that has been beneficial.

[2:37:35] Um and we're doing a really good job of

[2:37:38] marketing

[2:37:39] um the program.

[2:37:41] Um

[2:37:43] see.

[2:37:45] Um this is just what we've done so far

[2:37:47] in 2026. The bottom the bottom part um

[2:37:51] 10 down payment assistance loans just in

[2:37:53] the first quarter. Um we've

[2:37:57] um

[2:38:00] completed our the Well, I've completed

[2:38:02] my first project area plan. Yay. Um

[2:38:05] working on policies and procedures in a

[2:38:07] and the HTRC around the fire station.

[2:38:14] Is that it? That's it. That's it.

[2:38:18] And do you have any questions regarding

[2:38:20] RDA or our CDBG and home

[2:38:24] um items?

[2:38:26] Those are separate from the general

[2:38:27] fund. I I think that's why Bill makes me do it by myself because um

[2:38:34] Okay. Thank you. Any questions for

[2:38:36] Melissa?

[2:38:37] No, thanks Melissa. Thanks.

[2:38:42] All right. Is that it, Bill?

[2:38:44] Oh, you have helped us

[2:38:48] a lot. We're back on schedule. We're

[2:38:49] ahead of schedule. Wow, we're moving it

[2:38:52] up. All right.

[2:38:55] Yeah, three Oh, no, I did my math wrong.

[2:38:58] Thank you.

[2:38:59] We're we're 15 minutes in print. Yes.

[2:39:02] We got we got 50 minutes back. Okay,

[2:39:04] next is a resolution approving the

[2:39:06] appropriation of 96,547

[2:39:09] to pay for three new firefighters and

[2:39:11] their equipment between May and June for

[2:39:13] the fiscal year ending June 30th, 2026.

[2:39:16] And um Chief Headman,

[2:39:18] just make sure you explain why this is

[2:39:19] coming to us now before the budget.

[2:39:21] Okay.

[2:39:22] Thanks.

[2:39:27] Thank you. Uh appreciate you giving me a

[2:39:29] few minutes to talk about uh why we need

[2:39:31] to add three firefighters.

[2:39:34] I'll start off with why um why we're doing this now.

[2:39:39] Um there's

[2:39:42] the the plan ongoing starting in in

[2:39:44] fiscal year 27 is to fund them off of

[2:39:47] our

[2:39:48] um overtime account. So, we're going to

[2:39:50] reduce that in by a little over $300,000

[2:39:53] to pay for the full-time firefighters

[2:39:54] for the next year.

[2:39:56] The reason there's uh quite a few

[2:39:58] reasons we'd like to bring them in

[2:40:00] early.

[2:40:01] Um but a big one is that it's Well, let

[2:40:07] me just go through this. It'll kind of

[2:40:10] It's not going. I only have ordinances

[2:40:12] that we sent.

[2:40:13] Oh. All right. Well, then I'll do it

[2:40:15] without a presentation.

[2:40:17] Sorry about that. Um

[2:40:22] Hopefully that's the right one. It is.

[2:40:24] Okay. So, um

[2:40:27] it

[2:40:27] So, you didn't get one in your packet

[2:40:29] either a presentation. Did you get this?

[2:40:33] No. Okay.

[2:40:35] I'll be even more detailed cuz I thought

[2:40:38] I I thought there were three documents

[2:40:40] submitted. So, that's my mistake.

[2:40:43] Um so,

[2:40:45] the appropriation is for $60,000

[2:40:50] for the three salaries for two months

[2:40:53] and then a $39,000 for equipment which

[2:40:57] gets them personal protective equipment

[2:40:59] as well as radios and and some other

[2:41:02] um equipment, uniforms, and stuff they

[2:41:04] need to to perform.

[2:41:07] Um

[2:41:10] The fire department when we staff the fire department, every day we allow

[2:41:16] five people off.

[2:41:18] So that allows us to keep a minimum

[2:41:21] level of staffing at every fire station.

[2:41:23] And as soon as we have a sixth person

[2:41:25] off for any reason, that requires us to

[2:41:28] call back an overtime person.

[2:41:30] Which last year happened 330 out of 365

[2:41:34] days. So the the offset of the savings

[2:41:38] for overtime easily pays for the

[2:41:40] position. The reason it's not paying for

[2:41:42] it this current why we can't save it in

[2:41:45] this current budget year is that for the

[2:41:47] first two months of hiring in a new

[2:41:49] employee, they're not on shift. They're in training. So they're not

[2:41:55] helping us in the helping us reduce our

[2:41:58] overtime budget for that that two months

[2:42:00] of training.

[2:42:02] Um

[2:42:04] We we hire

[2:42:10] There's one of the reasons that we

[2:42:12] wanted to hire now is

[2:42:15] we're we're down two employees. We have

[2:42:17] a third one that's about to retire. So

[2:42:19] we need three.

[2:42:20] Um and then we we want to hire the

[2:42:22] additional three so we can run one camp

[2:42:25] in May,

[2:42:26] get them all trained up and then they're all on shift starting in July.

[2:42:30] Uh which

[2:42:32] helps for a number of reasons. It helps

[2:42:34] us provide a better training opportunity

[2:42:36] for the new employees

[2:42:38] by having um

[2:42:39] more people in training, we're able to

[2:42:42] function more like a real fire

[2:42:44] department in training. So when we when

[2:42:47] we go to a fire, we don't just go with

[2:42:48] one station, we go with multiple

[2:42:50] stations. So it allows us to have two

[2:42:51] companies to do training together and it

[2:42:55] makes it a whole lot more realistic.

[2:42:57] Um the one of the other big reasons we

[2:43:01] would like to hire earlier

[2:43:03] is we started interviewing for the three

[2:43:06] positions we know about uh

[2:43:09] after we did a test in February.

[2:43:11] And by the time we were making offers to

[2:43:14] them

[2:43:15] two weeks ago

[2:43:17] we'd already two of them had already

[2:43:19] taken jobs in other fire departments. So

[2:43:22] the the timing is important to get the

[2:43:24] best talent in in Provo. So we we we

[2:43:27] feel like it's

[2:43:29] to our benefit to hire we we have a

[2:43:31] great candidate pool that's at least

[2:43:33] five or six deep.

[2:43:36] We we haven't interviewed if we get

[2:43:38] approved an appropriation for the

[2:43:40] additional three we'll interview three

[2:43:42] more candidates.

[2:43:44] Uh which is a civil service requirement

[2:43:45] that we test we interview 10 for each

[2:43:48] position.

[2:43:49] So for the

[2:43:50] first three we we interviewed 12 if that

[2:43:53] makes sense. Um

[2:43:58] Let's see.

[2:44:00] This uh

[2:44:02] by doing this one camp also saves us a

[2:44:04] lot of overtime at cost because when we

[2:44:07] run a camp we have some people we have a

[2:44:09] training division that does a portion of

[2:44:10] the training but we have to bring in

[2:44:13] experts in their field to train them in

[2:44:16] EMS or

[2:44:18] whether it's some kind of technical

[2:44:19] rescue or different disciplines in the

[2:44:22] departments we bring in the right people

[2:44:24] to teach them

[2:44:25] through the through the training program

[2:44:27] in addition to the people that are there

[2:44:29] every day.

[2:44:30] Um

[2:44:35] Sorry, I was counting on a slide.

[2:44:39] Well, I think that's what we want to get

[2:44:40] across cuz we talked about this in

[2:44:41] leadership but that

[2:44:42] it is going to save money in the long

[2:44:44] run and the department needs it ASAP and

[2:44:47] my training save money save overtime. So

[2:44:50] covering this for two months before the

[2:44:52] year budget picks it up. Yeah, it will

[2:44:54] help us

[2:44:55] a lot to to get the people in the the

[2:44:59] pipeline so they're actually benefiting

[2:45:01] us starting right in July which is our

[2:45:03] busiest time of year.

[2:45:04] Um we already have firefighters

[2:45:07] in Nebraska fighting wildland fires.

[2:45:10] They're going to be out all season long

[2:45:12] I I expect as dry as everything is. So

[2:45:15] >> Well, are there any other questions for

[2:45:16] Chief Hedman about this?

[2:45:18] Okay, I think we're great. Thank you

[2:45:20] Chief. Thank you Chief. Thank you.

[2:45:22] All right, next a resolution to place

[2:45:27] 1.92 acre parcel of ground located

[2:45:29] approximately 1051 East Birch Lane on

[2:45:32] the surplus property list. This will be

[2:45:34] presented by Tara Riddle.

[2:45:46] Good afternoon.

[2:45:48] I have a little disclaimer. I love

[2:45:51] spring in Utah but it does not love me.

[2:45:53] So I'm having

[2:45:55] a little asthma issue so if I'm a little

[2:45:57] breathy it's not cuz I'm super excited.

[2:46:02] Um

[2:46:03] I've received a couple of comments about

[2:46:05] this item. So

[2:46:07] please forgive me for

[2:46:09] going away from some of the information

[2:46:11] that I provided to you in your packet. I

[2:46:13] thought it might be helpful to give you

[2:46:15] some historical information that was not

[2:46:18] included cuz I didn't realize that it

[2:46:20] would be some of the questions that were

[2:46:21] coming up. So I think this may be

[2:46:23] beneficial as we go with the discussion.

[2:46:26] So I'm going to start way back when

[2:46:30] in 1941

[2:46:32] um BYU acquired some property that's

[2:46:35] adjacent to the now Kiwanis Park.

[2:46:38] This will be important as I describe

[2:46:41] kind of what's happened.

[2:46:42] So um this is the property here where

[2:46:45] this building is located. Um it's known

[2:46:48] as the Oakridge Elemen- Oakridge School.

[2:46:51] Um, it sits on BYU property.

[2:46:54] Um, in 1948

[2:46:57] is when Provo City acquired the property

[2:46:59] that is now known as Kiwanis Park.

[2:47:02] So, 30 years after we acquired the park

[2:47:05] property, we entered into an a lease

[2:47:07] agreement with the school district for

[2:47:10] the 2 acres that we're talking about

[2:47:12] today.

[2:47:14] Um, that lease agreement was

[2:47:16] basically a 50-year lease agreement.

[2:47:20] So, it won't be expiring for 2 more

[2:47:23] years.

[2:47:24] And the lease agreement was to be used

[2:47:26] for parking and a playground for the

[2:47:31] Oakridge School.

[2:47:32] was a school

[2:47:34] specific for children in the Provo

[2:47:36] School District and later the Nebo

[2:47:38] School District, children with

[2:47:40] disabilities, so special needs children.

[2:47:43] So,

[2:47:45] um, the contract that we had

[2:47:47] was they would pay a dollar a year,

[2:47:49] which they paid in advance. They paid

[2:47:51] the full $50 up front.

[2:47:53] Um,

[2:47:55] so it was supposed to be used for public

[2:47:56] purposes in connection with the school.

[2:47:59] Um, so that included both the playground

[2:48:02] and the parking.

[2:48:03] And that the school district would pay

[2:48:06] for all of that equipment and the

[2:48:08] improvements for the parking lot. So,

[2:48:11] they built everything, all everything

[2:48:13] that sits there now is what the school

[2:48:15] district constructed. The deal was once

[2:48:18] the the lease agreement was either

[2:48:20] broken or it expired,

[2:48:22] all of those improvements then became

[2:48:24] the ownership of Provo City.

[2:48:26] So,

[2:48:28] in 1979,

[2:48:30] BYU entered into an agreement with the

[2:48:32] school district for the construction of

[2:48:34] the school. So, the school

[2:48:38] is owned by the school district, but the

[2:48:40] property is owned by BYU.

[2:48:43] So, fast forward to 2004,

[2:48:46] there was an amendment to the agreement

[2:48:48] with BYU between BYU and the school

[2:48:50] district. There were some changes that

[2:48:53] took place in the state of Utah Utah

[2:48:56] regarding the education of children with

[2:48:59] special needs.

[2:49:00] So, it made the Oak Bridge school

[2:49:02] basically obsolete.

[2:49:04] And so, the school district stopped

[2:49:07] using the building for that purpose.

[2:49:10] Provo City was never notified of that

[2:49:13] change in use.

[2:49:14] So, Wasatch Elementary School and the

[2:49:18] school district, I don't know how many

[2:49:19] of the offices and things there in the

[2:49:21] building were used by each, but it was

[2:49:24] basically used by the school district

[2:49:27] for school district park purposes. And

[2:49:29] the playground continued to be used for

[2:49:32] Wasatch Elementary School.

[2:49:35] Um it's important to note that when

[2:49:38] the school district took over this

[2:49:40] property, they put up signage on the

[2:49:43] parking lot that it was for Wasatch um

[2:49:47] employees and also for student drop-off.

[2:49:50] This was also in contradiction to our

[2:49:53] agreement cuz the agreement was supposed

[2:49:55] to be that it should have been parking

[2:49:57] shared between the park and the school.

[2:50:02] So,

[2:50:04] um we fast forward now to 2025.

[2:50:09] We know that Wasatch Elementary School

[2:50:11] is purchased by BYU.

[2:50:12] This also included the building. So, the

[2:50:16] school district quitclaimed all of their

[2:50:19] ownership over to BYU. So, BYU now owns

[2:50:22] the land and the building.

[2:50:25] They assumed, excuse me, I got to take a

[2:50:27] drink.

[2:50:31] BYU assumed the lease agreement. They

[2:50:35] were not made aware of the terms of the

[2:50:37] agreement. So, they in good faith have

[2:50:39] been using the property as the school

[2:50:42] district was using it, assuming that

[2:50:44] they had the same rights, not

[2:50:46] understanding that if it was no longer

[2:50:49] being used for the school that it would

[2:50:51] revert back to the city.

[2:50:53] So, when they got ownership, that was

[2:50:55] about the time that they came to the

[2:50:57] city and said, "We are making some

[2:50:59] adjustments to other buildings on

[2:51:01] campus, specifically the administration

[2:51:04] building. We're going to need to move

[2:51:05] some of our employees down to some of

[2:51:07] these buildings at the Wasatch

[2:51:08] Elementary School, also an Oak Ridge

[2:51:10] School. So, that's going to need us to

[2:51:13] actually use some of the parking, and

[2:51:14] we'd like to incorporate that into our

[2:51:17] overall plan. So, we'd like to purchase

[2:51:19] the property."

[2:51:20] So, that's where we are today.

[2:51:23] So, inside of the packet we had

[2:51:25] information, like we typically do. We

[2:51:27] did a departmental review with all of

[2:51:30] the city departments, asking what impact

[2:51:33] would it have if we were to surplus

[2:51:35] these two acres. It's very important to

[2:51:38] note that if you stand up on this

[2:51:40] property, you would probably not realize

[2:51:42] that it's actually owned by the city.

[2:51:44] We have not had use of it for 50 years.

[2:51:47] There has not been citizens using the

[2:51:50] playgrounds cuz it's secured.

[2:51:52] Well, then they're going in It's fenced.

[2:51:55] It's gated. So, if they're going in, through fences that are

[2:51:58] closed. So, and and I'll be addressing

[2:52:01] kind of the playground issue here in a

[2:52:02] second. But, Yeah. the parking and

[2:52:05] things they haven't been using. I don't

[2:52:07] know if they They have been.

[2:52:09] I don't know if you've been getting

[2:52:10] ticketed or whatever. But,

[2:52:12] so, that it really would not have an

[2:52:14] impact impact as far as our planning, or

[2:52:17] the parks department have been planning

[2:52:18] on, you know, the Quanus Park's future

[2:52:20] or anything like that.

[2:52:22] So,

[2:52:23] with the purchase of the Wasatch

[2:52:26] Elementary School from BYU,

[2:52:29] some of the There's three playgrounds

[2:52:31] that partially sit well, the one

[2:52:33] playground sits entirely on the parcel

[2:52:36] that was leased by the school district.

[2:52:39] There's two other playgrounds.

[2:52:41] One right here and one right here.

[2:52:44] When you If you look at the property

[2:52:45] lines, they're built partially on school

[2:52:48] district now BYU property and partially

[2:52:51] on city property. None of us know

[2:52:53] exactly why that happened. But the

[2:52:56] playgrounds have been used by both

[2:52:57] parties.

[2:52:59] So, um

[2:53:01] about a year ago

[2:53:03] the parks department went in and did a

[2:53:07] They actually hired

[2:53:09] an inspection of all three playgrounds.

[2:53:11] And it was determined that all of the

[2:53:13] equipment in those three playgrounds

[2:53:16] were rated at poor to very poor.

[2:53:19] Meaning that they're not safe for us to

[2:53:21] be using.

[2:53:22] So,

[2:53:24] the proposal is that in 2028-2029

[2:53:28] the re-um placement of those playgrounds

[2:53:31] would be done as part of their CIP

[2:53:33] project. And they would be improved down

[2:53:36] in our current playground area.

[2:53:39] Here.

[2:53:40] It's

[2:53:41] I I apologize.

[2:53:45] CIP parks and rec CIP? Yes. And we're

[2:53:48] talking about even the fenced off one to

[2:53:50] the north.

[2:53:51] No. That was not considered Well,

[2:53:54] I'm assuming that that would eventually

[2:53:56] be going away if we sell the property to

[2:53:59] BYU.

[2:54:01] So,

[2:54:02] there are three separate

[2:54:03] play-playgrounds plus our new our newer

[2:54:06] playground. And the three separate

[2:54:08] playgrounds are the ones that are joint

[2:54:09] on our property and are in very poor condition that need

[2:54:13] They need to go away. Okay.

[2:54:15] Is that clear?

[2:54:16] Because the fact that they're there

[2:54:18] They are. So, I just wanted And our

[2:54:20] inspection

[2:54:22] verified that. And I guess if we have

[2:54:23] questions on that, we have

[2:54:25] representatives from the Parks

[2:54:26] Department here.

[2:54:27] So,

[2:54:29] um

[2:54:30] what's happened to this point is that

[2:54:32] BYU, as I've mentioned, has made an

[2:54:34] offer to purchase the property.

[2:54:36] So, in essence, we could surplus the

[2:54:39] property and receive about 1.37 million

[2:54:43] dollars, which could be put into the CIP

[2:54:46] fund for the Parks Department to go

[2:54:49] towards the replacement of these

[2:54:52] playgrounds.

[2:54:54] And they would be replaced down in the

[2:54:56] playground area, expanding that

[2:54:58] playground that we currently have on the

[2:55:00] park property.

[2:55:02] Um I know there was some questions about

[2:55:05] what BYU's proposed use was, so we have

[2:55:07] representatives from BYU here if you

[2:55:10] have questions specific to that. If

[2:55:12] there's questions specific to the impact

[2:55:15] this would have on the Parks Department

[2:55:16] or the playground areas, as I mentioned,

[2:55:18] we've got representatives here from the

[2:55:21] Parks Department.

[2:55:23] Yes.

[2:55:25] So, Tara, why would Parks automatically

[2:55:28] replace playground equipment that sits

[2:55:30] partially

[2:55:31] in Kiwanis Park on city property and

[2:55:33] partially on the on BYU property? Yes,

[2:55:36] residents are using these playgrounds.

[2:55:38] Part of it is the smaller um playground

[2:55:41] that we have now is rated for

[2:55:44] you'll have to help me on this, two two

[2:55:46] to five-year-olds. We don't really have

[2:55:48] equipment for the five-year-olds to

[2:55:50] 12-year-olds.

[2:55:52] So, the new equipment that would be

[2:55:53] coming in would be replacing the stuff

[2:55:55] that was used by the elementary school,

[2:55:57] which would be the five-year-olds to

[2:55:58] 12-year-olds.

[2:55:59] Okay. So, you said there's two years

[2:56:01] remaining on the lease. Well, so

[2:56:04] theoretically, the lease should be

[2:56:06] terminated. Yeah. Because it's not being

[2:56:08] used appropriately.

[2:56:11] So, the lease part of this

[2:56:14] is now out of the picture.

[2:56:16] And then going way back to 19

[2:56:20] Where Where did Provo City acquire this

[2:56:22] property? Would it have been National

[2:56:24] Parks property or those

[2:56:26] No, we acquired it from a gentleman

[2:56:29] by the name of Willie Rita.

[2:56:32] Yes, a single gentleman as it said on

[2:56:34] the deed.

[2:56:35] So

[2:56:36] a single gentleman.

[2:56:38] So

[2:56:39] You tell us what Yeah, I know.

[2:56:42] I don't know. I am assuming we purchased

[2:56:44] it. It may have been

[2:56:45] um donated. I'm really not sure. There

[2:56:47] wasn't a lot of information

[2:56:49] on the deed, but

[2:56:51] You got the deed. We got fee title from

[2:56:52] it uh a single person.

[2:56:55] Okay, Counselor Whitlock. Um so

[2:56:58] just clearing up maybe a couple things

[2:56:59] that I'd heard. Um

[2:57:01] so you're saying right now BYU is void.

[2:57:04] So currently BYU does not have like a

[2:57:06] right to use the land. Correct. Okay.

[2:57:10] And there I'd heard that there was like

[2:57:11] an option for them to extend the lease,

[2:57:14] but is that's not accurate? Right?

[2:57:16] >> No, there hasn't been any discussion

[2:57:17] about that.

[2:57:18] >> hasn't been Okay. The original lease as

[2:57:19] I say was written for 50 years

[2:57:21] >> And there's no with the option of it

[2:57:23] renewing for another 25

[2:57:26] um automatically unless the city gave

[2:57:28] notice that we did not want to renew.

[2:57:31] Got it. Got it. So there was the

[2:57:32] original lease, there was that extension

[2:57:34] of

[2:57:34] >> There was that extension.

[2:57:35] >> no longer in effect because the lease

[2:57:37] was void. Right. Is that correct? Yeah.

[2:57:39] Thank you.

[2:57:42] Anyone else?

[2:57:44] Counselor Bogden. Okay, it's just in my

[2:57:46] notes.

[2:57:48] Return over there. Do we have a need

[2:57:52] for

[2:57:53] multiple five plus playgrounds? I mean,

[2:57:55] how do we envision this?

[2:57:58] It would be a consolidated to one five

[2:58:01] to 12-year-old playground.

[2:58:04] So would it be large like a Lakeview

[2:58:06] North Park

[2:58:08] playground large?

[2:58:09] >> Yes.

[2:58:10] Because we would think that you have

[2:58:11] three different ones and they're it's

[2:58:12] all being utilized. We would have a need for a lot, but just

[2:58:19] not not like a liquid park

[2:58:23] one, right? It it'll be sized for the needs of the neighborhood. We

[2:58:28] understand that

[2:58:29] there was an elementary school at this

[2:58:31] location and there's not no longer an

[2:58:34] elementary school, so the demand during

[2:58:38] the daytime hours is probably

[2:58:39] considerably less than how these were

[2:58:41] sized.

[2:58:42] But, we'll make sure it's sized

[2:58:43] appropriately and it is and it would be

[2:58:45] a larger playground than a smaller

[2:58:47] playground with the restrooms. And will

[2:58:48] the residents be a part of that

[2:58:50] decision, like where it's located at and

[2:58:53] Yes. how much it is? We will hold public

[2:58:55] uh input on all of that. And with it

[2:58:58] being a million dollars, would they also

[2:58:59] get a replacement of the tennis courts?

[2:59:03] With the capital improvement plan, yes,

[2:59:05] the intent is to replace the three

[2:59:07] tennis courts. And again, with public

[2:59:09] input, decide if there's three remaining

[2:59:12] tennis courts or if there's some

[2:59:13] pickleball court integration in there or

[2:59:15] not. We'll we'll we'll continue that as

[2:59:17] we get closer to that. We probably need

[2:59:19] to get the tennis people's input on

[2:59:21] that, too, or that's going to be a

[2:59:22] really

[2:59:24] bad situation for a lot of us.

[2:59:28] Okay.

[2:59:29] Thank you.

[2:59:30] Councilmember Clark. Uh yeah, so just a

[2:59:32] couple more questions. I I would be

[2:59:33] curious to hear what uh BYU's planned

[2:59:36] use of the land would be.

[2:59:38] Good question.

[2:59:41] Right now, we would just use it as as

[2:59:43] overflow parking for the Oak Ridge

[2:59:45] parking lot. Right now, we have no

[2:59:47] plans. We don't have

[2:59:48] any plans for Wasatch or Oak Ridge that

[2:59:51] we know of.

[2:59:52] That will come, you know.

[2:59:54] Yeah, but

[2:59:55] Uh even when the ASP is completed? Even

[2:59:57] ASP one is completed is we don't

[3:00:01] envision keeping the school.

[3:00:03] Okay. And what was the what was the um

[3:00:06] methodology to sort of reach the 1.37

[3:00:09] million uh

[3:00:11] between the two uh appraisal values. So,

[3:00:14] we typically split the difference, but

[3:00:16] BYU was actually generous in coming

[3:00:18] a little bit above what the splitting of

[3:00:20] the difference would be.

[3:00:22] Okay. That's normally what we do if we

[3:00:24] get two appraisals. And have we talked

[3:00:26] at all about options of maybe extending

[3:00:28] the lease under

[3:00:31] more than a dollar a year or like the needs the immediate needs during the

[3:00:34] ASB ASB construction?

[3:00:36] So, we have not discussed a lease option

[3:00:39] and it wouldn't be

[3:00:41] we would we we would create a new lease

[3:00:44] entirely. So,

[3:00:45] that is something I don't know if BYU would be open to

[3:00:48] a lease agreement. That's just not

[3:00:50] something we had talked about. Yeah, we

[3:00:51] haven't haven't talked about that. What

[3:00:54] why is it BYU's preference to purchase

[3:00:56] the land as opposed to something like a

[3:00:58] lease?

[3:00:59] Um,

[3:01:01] it it came up as a purchase. We we just

[3:01:04] talked about it. Okay.

[3:01:07] And I will go back Wasatch I don't know

[3:01:10] what happened with Oak Ridge. Oak Ridge

[3:01:11] is in the nicer condition so that may

[3:01:13] stay. But,

[3:01:14] Wasatch is in poor condition.

[3:01:18] Councilor Ivie, so when you say Wasatch

[3:01:20] will go away, do you envision

[3:01:23] another do you envision just selling the

[3:01:25] property to some

[3:01:28] At some point the building will either

[3:01:31] have to be

[3:01:33] I I just can't see us remodeling it cuz

[3:01:35] it's in such poor condition.

[3:01:38] So, we really don't know what we're

[3:01:39] going to do with it. So, you don't know

[3:01:41] if you're going to put a parking lot on

[3:01:42] it or if you're going to put a parking

[3:01:43] garage on it. Yeah. What is

[3:01:47] what's stopping you guys from putting

[3:01:48] parking garages up on campus? Um,

[3:01:51] parking garages are about in the

[3:01:52] underground and then going up they're

[3:01:55] about $46,000 per stall and then you're

[3:01:57] about $30,000 per stall for an above

[3:02:00] ground.

[3:02:01] And so, that's what's stopping us.

[3:02:04] 30 how many times? It's not um anything

[3:02:06] below ground about 45, 46,000 and above

[3:02:09] ground you're about 30,000 per stall.

[3:02:13] And so, um and you throw a parking then

[3:02:17] it just creates more of a traffic in

[3:02:19] that one area. Well, this is a lot of

[3:02:22] the feedback that we're getting Yeah. is

[3:02:25] that BYU needs to start staying within

[3:02:27] their footprint and start building up,

[3:02:29] building parking garages, and and

[3:02:31] building there instead of expanding out.

[3:02:33] Um and we've gotten Let me tell you I

[3:02:36] went to go exercise

[3:02:39] at the Rec this morning and by the time

[3:02:41] I got out I had 15 emails.

[3:02:44] And my email I would traveled home

[3:02:46] yesterday cuz we went to St. George for

[3:02:48] a conference last week and I got home

[3:02:50] yesterday I was traveling yesterday. My

[3:02:52] phone was just

[3:02:53] stinking going off all the time. This

[3:02:56] isn't just

[3:02:57] one person's opinion. This is a lot of

[3:03:00] Provo that is feeling that BYU needs to

[3:03:04] start staying within its footprint and

[3:03:06] start building up.

[3:03:07] Getting some parking garages. I'm I'm

[3:03:09] not doing this to be mean I'm just doing

[3:03:10] this to let you know that that its taste

[3:03:13] for us to sell this is pretty high.

[3:03:17] Um they want you guys to stay within

[3:03:19] your footprint. Well, that's fine. We we don't we want to be neighbors with Provo City. We've worked together

[3:03:25] for years.

[3:03:27] And so, if if you guys decide not to

[3:03:29] sell this, we're we're not here trying

[3:03:33] to tell you that we want it.

[3:03:36] Thank you.

[3:03:39] Any other questions for BYU or we got

[3:03:41] them? Gary, go ahead.

[3:03:43] Some of the images that we received show

[3:03:47] that

[3:03:47] BYU signage on Birch Avenue

[3:03:51] uh at parking lot entrances.

[3:03:52] >> Yes. Um

[3:03:54] if if in fact they were where

[3:03:57] they looked like they were and if those

[3:03:59] have been removed I want to commend BYU

[3:04:01] We pulled ours on it. for removing those

[3:04:03] in advance. Thank you.

[3:04:05] >> Until this issue is settled. I think

[3:04:07] that's that's up in the air.

[3:04:09] Good.

[3:04:10] Uh

[3:04:11] and then my other comment is

[3:04:13] I kind of feel like this issue is being

[3:04:16] um unfairly framed.

[3:04:18] And and even the slide itself that says

[3:04:21] Kiwanis Park surplus property

[3:04:24] m- maybe at one point this was part of

[3:04:26] Kiwanis Park when the lease agreement

[3:04:28] was entered into 50 years ago.

[3:04:30] But

[3:04:31] at best I would say the argument the

[3:04:34] citizens have is please return this

[3:04:36] property to park use.

[3:04:39] But everyone's saying don't sell off

[3:04:41] Kiwanis Park. This I don't view this as

[3:04:44] Kiwanis Park. I view it as parking and

[3:04:47] playgrounds that were used by the school

[3:04:49] district.

[3:04:50] So anyway, I I wanted to just clarify

[3:04:53] that as well. That's a good point. I

[3:04:55] think the reason we call it Kiwanis Park

[3:04:57] is cuz you will look at a parcel map.

[3:05:00] It's on the parcel for Kiwanis Park, but

[3:05:02] clarifying information probably would

[3:05:04] have been helpful.

[3:05:06] That's it's surplussing Provo City

[3:05:08] Council. Yeah.

[3:05:10] Well, I think so I used to live there

[3:05:12] and I've used that park for 10 years

[3:05:14] with my children. It was very much

[3:05:16] accessible. I played with my kids there

[3:05:18] and I parked there and sometimes when I

[3:05:19] had to work I'd watch them while I

[3:05:21] worked in my car.

[3:05:22] Like

[3:05:24] it's accessible and I used it a lot.

[3:05:27] It's a lot of people with little kids

[3:05:28] would use it.

[3:05:28] >> They do it regularly. Uh absolutely.

[3:05:32] So um and there's not a lot of parking

[3:05:34] at Kiwanis. So when you have a bunch of

[3:05:37] kids you're carrying around, it's really

[3:05:38] hard to find a place to park that you're

[3:05:40] not running across the street, which is

[3:05:41] dangerous. So like that's a coveted

[3:05:44] parking area when you are playing with

[3:05:45] your bunch of kids.

[3:05:47] Um

[3:05:49] I

[3:05:51] I'm definitely not open to selling any

[3:05:54] of Provo's parkland and I consider this

[3:05:56] parkland. I don't care if it becomes a

[3:05:58] rose garden or parking lots or

[3:06:01] more playground.

[3:06:04] It's very valuable space and

[3:06:07] I definitely want to

[3:06:08] keep it. This is what All we're doing is

[3:06:10] growing more dense. We're just more and

[3:06:11] more people. The last thing you want to

[3:06:13] do is lessen our park space we want. And

[3:06:15] I'm very perplexed by the price because

[3:06:18] lots are selling in the city for a half

[3:06:20] acre at a million dollars. So, this

[3:06:22] price seems ridiculous to me. And I had

[3:06:24] multiple people reach out to me on that

[3:06:25] account saying this price It probably

[3:06:26] has a lot to do with the zoning. This

[3:06:28] price is

[3:06:30] really cheap.

[3:06:32] And um

[3:06:35] the

[3:06:36] I I've heard from over

[3:06:39] call

[3:06:40] I've heard from over 75 people through

[3:06:42] email, text, phone calls.

[3:06:45] Um and not one person supports the idea

[3:06:48] of this.

[3:06:49] And I'm not surprised by that. I think

[3:06:51] there is still a lot of hard feelings

[3:06:52] about Wasatch cuz I heard about that a

[3:06:54] lot from people, too. Yeah. There's I

[3:06:56] don't know when Provo will ever get over

[3:06:58] that land swap. So, um

[3:07:01] it's it's still painful.

[3:07:04] But um lots of comments about the

[3:07:06] parking garages. People want parking

[3:07:08] garages and they they think it's very

[3:07:10] overdue and they're frustrated seeing

[3:07:11] the music building being built without a

[3:07:12] parking garage. And now the ASB being

[3:07:15] built without a parking garage. I don't

[3:07:16] know if that's true. That's what they

[3:07:17] told me. But um that there should be

[3:07:20] parking garages on the bottom. There

[3:07:21] should be our parking garages on the

[3:07:22] land that they own.

[3:07:24] And that um

[3:07:26] that the park is

[3:07:28] also very um

[3:07:31] very strong consensus that parking is

[3:07:33] very much needed. I heard from a lot of

[3:07:35] BYU employees saying parking's a

[3:07:37] nightmare. And BYU employees have been

[3:07:39] dealing with this forever. A bunch of

[3:07:40] retired people even said it's always

[3:07:41] been a problem the whole time before I

[3:07:42] retired. So, parking is a problem. They

[3:07:45] acknowledge that, but this isn't the

[3:07:47] solution.

[3:07:49] Councilor Christensen? No.

[3:07:52] Yeah, so the issues around the

[3:07:54] playgrounds playgrounds come and go.

[3:07:57] Uh

[3:07:58] prime land like this does not.

[3:08:00] This will not This will not come back. I

[3:08:03] and I I can see be why BYU would want to

[3:08:05] land bank this.

[3:08:07] Uh it's a very prudent thing to to ask

[3:08:10] for. I I appreciate that BYU is not

[3:08:12] being heavy-handed about this.

[3:08:14] Um

[3:08:16] and it's also prudent that Provo land

[3:08:18] bank.

[3:08:19] So, whether this is set up as a park,

[3:08:22] you know, has been seen on that in a

[3:08:24] different list. This is This is land

[3:08:26] that will not come back to us. And I

[3:08:29] would be a hard pass on this.

[3:08:33] Councilor Chris Sorry, Councilor

[3:08:35] Whitlock.

[3:08:36] Um one of the thing that was I also

[3:08:38] heard a lot from constituents that I was

[3:08:39] curious if someone from Parks and Rec

[3:08:41] could speak to is that Kiwanis is one of

[3:08:43] the most heavily trafficked parks in the

[3:08:45] city. Do you have any data or

[3:08:47] um

[3:08:48] research to suggest kind of what the

[3:08:50] relative use of Kiwanis to what to other

[3:08:52] parks?

[3:08:55] I would say that Kiwanis is one of the

[3:08:57] heavier used parks, especially around uh

[3:09:00] the 4th of July holiday for viewing

[3:09:02] fireworks.

[3:09:04] Um but after the holiday impacts, it is

[3:09:08] probably one of the more It's I would

[3:09:10] say it falls within

[3:09:12] regular use of

[3:09:14] capacity for the park. It's a larger

[3:09:16] park, so people can spread out well in

[3:09:17] there.

[3:09:18] Um I would have to get you the actual

[3:09:20] numbers, but I I can get them for you in

[3:09:22] those.

[3:09:26] Councilor Whitlock.

[3:09:29] Yeah, I would

[3:09:31] um

[3:09:31] I would be open to

[3:09:34] some sort of an agreement where BYU is

[3:09:36] able to use the existing parking lots

[3:09:38] that are there. I wouldn't want any

[3:09:41] landscaping change or anything like that

[3:09:44] because

[3:09:46] um

[3:09:47] a lot of the need for that parking space

[3:09:51] by the community would be weekends or

[3:09:53] other times that it wouldn't be

[3:09:54] necessary for the BYU employees. I think

[3:09:57] that would be a good faith solution.

[3:10:00] That's a very temporary one just while

[3:10:02] the ASB's being constructed and that

[3:10:04] overflow parking is needed.

[3:10:06] Um, I think we do need to work with the

[3:10:09] BYU since we

[3:10:11] are sharing a property line and we have

[3:10:14] assets that are crossing over that line

[3:10:16] for those parks or the playgrounds to

[3:10:19] get that figured out. And they've been

[3:10:21] pretty good at working with us on things

[3:10:23] like that.

[3:10:24] I am completely opposed to selling the

[3:10:27] property.

[3:10:28] Um, I can remember going to both of

[3:10:30] these playgrounds when I was an

[3:10:32] undergrad and just assuming that the

[3:10:35] reason that there were fences there was

[3:10:37] for restriction during the school day,

[3:10:39] but that those were community assets the

[3:10:41] rest of the time. And I believe that's

[3:10:43] how most people in the community treat

[3:10:45] it,

[3:10:46] um, even if parks hadn't been

[3:10:47] recognizing that officially.

[3:10:49] And I mean, this is where I got engaged.

[3:10:52] So, I've got like a strong emotional

[3:10:55] ties to this park even though I don't

[3:10:57] live next to it.

[3:11:00] And I would also say I wouldn't have any

[3:11:03] trouble either, uh, coming up the

[3:11:05] short-term lease to accommodate,

[3:11:07] you know, construction the next few

[3:11:09] years with I don't have a problem with

[3:11:11] that at all. I heard that a lot from

[3:11:13] constituents that they would be open in

[3:11:14] the spirit of being good neighbors with

[3:11:16] something like that as long as it was,

[3:11:17] um,

[3:11:19] like you said, not altered. The property

[3:11:21] is not altered, just using the existing

[3:11:23] playground and, um,

[3:11:25] and it was beneficial to the city,

[3:11:27] uh, whether it's, you know, the the the

[3:11:29] cost of the lease or potentially

[3:11:31] some kind of contribution towards

[3:11:32] getting it back towards more park space.

[3:11:37] Councilor Bogden.

[3:11:38] John, may I have the captive?

[3:11:43] Um, the one thing that I did hear is the

[3:11:45] people really did like the playground

[3:11:48] that was

[3:11:49] and stuff.

[3:11:51] It is a great asset for young children,

[3:11:54] so that they can just not worry about

[3:11:55] them running around and running in

[3:11:57] places where they shouldn't be. Runners

[3:11:59] are Runners are always a thing under

[3:12:01] five, aren't they?

[3:12:02] But, um, that was really valued. I did

[3:12:04] never hear that they wanted that to go

[3:12:06] away. I don't know what the condition of

[3:12:07] that playground equipment is, and I

[3:12:09] don't know that we know.

[3:12:11] But, um,

[3:12:14] I have heard that residents are making

[3:12:17] their own repairs to some of our

[3:12:18] equipment, so

[3:12:20] the sooner that we can get some of that

[3:12:21] equipment

[3:12:23] redone, I think would be in our best

[3:12:26] interest.

[3:12:27] But, I just wanted to point that out. I

[3:12:28] don't know that they're up for tearing

[3:12:31] down the fencing, just leaving Maybe

[3:12:33] re-signing the fencing so that it's it's

[3:12:35] clear that it's okay to use it, but,

[3:12:38] yeah, keeping those shorties contained

[3:12:40] super useful. Also, I kind of like

[3:12:44] the old school swings and stuff like

[3:12:46] that. I Those are probably not up to any

[3:12:49] kind of standard, but they are

[3:12:55] Hey, any more discussion?

[3:12:59] All right, is that all you need from us?

[3:13:00] Yes. Okay, I think so. Yeah. Thank you.

[3:13:03] to BYU for coming.

[3:13:06] Yeah, the surplus you want cuz it

[3:13:08] doesn't sound like

[3:13:09] there would be support to move it. So,

[3:13:11] I'll talk to BYU about the possibility

[3:13:13] of a

[3:13:14] lease to see if that would work.

[3:13:17] I guess. Thank you, Tara. Thank you,

[3:13:18] BYU, for coming. Yeah, thank you for

[3:13:20] answering our questions. I think both of

[3:13:22] you like to go.

[3:13:24] I think you'd like to go. I don't think

[3:13:26] it's I sent her an email. We just got

[3:13:28] this.

[3:13:30] We have to pivot.

[3:13:32] All right, um, Brian, if you can please

[3:13:34] speak to our closed meeting.

[3:13:36] Yes, we do have an additional topic

[3:13:38] which deals with potential acquisition

[3:13:41] of property which is one of the

[3:13:44] purposes for strategy session regarding

[3:13:47] acquisition property which is a

[3:13:49] permitted

[3:13:50] purpose for a closed meeting in the

[3:13:51] statute. So, it'd be appropriate to move

[3:13:53] to closed meeting

[3:13:55] Great. We have a motion for a closed

[3:13:56] meeting.

[3:13:56] >> In that case, I'll move that we close

[3:13:58] this meeting. Awesome. I will second

[3:13:59] that. Wonderful. We will close the

[3:14:03] meeting.

[3:14:05] Do we need to do a vote? Yes, let's do a

[3:14:07] vote. All right, a vote on doing a

[3:14:09] closed meeting. Councilor Withall? Yes.

[3:14:11] Councilor Bogan? Yes. Councilor McKay?

[3:14:13] Yes. Councilor Christensen? Yes.

[3:14:15] Councilor Withlaw?

[3:14:15] >> Yes. Councilor Garrett?

[3:14:17] >> Yes. And that passes 7-0.

[3:14:19] 6-0. 6-0.

Provo City Council Work Meeting | March 24, 2026

Transcript