[0:00] We discussed a few things. There were some changes that we knew definitely needed

[0:03] to be made. Um, ended up calling him later and discussing some others, um, that were,

[0:10] I guess what I would categorize as more of a major concern on my part because of

[0:14] the entry and exiting. Um, the main gate that would be used for, uh, attendees

[0:22] to come in was not wide enough for two-way traffic. And the second entrance be designated

[0:29] for emergency vehicles only. And he, he said that he would pull up part of the fence

[0:35] and widen that out, bring in either iron ore or some type of gravel to make that

[0:40] all-weather road through there for two-way vehicle traffic. Um, if that's done, that

[0:46] would improve things, but it hasn't been done to my knowledge at this time. The last

[0:51] time I saw him was yesterday. Um, also, one thing that I didn't, uh, get to discuss

[0:58] with him and You may have a plan for this, but, uh, the parking area is open field

[1:05] pasture. It was bush hogged down really short for uh a pasture. Which is good, but

[1:12] having vehicles out there in extremely dry conditions, uh, you know, there, there

[1:17] is a, a risk of fire, uh, happening out there. We would need fire extinguishers out

[1:23] there. Um, and also I've noticed on the property there's a large water tank trailer.

[1:29] I don't know if it's operational or not or if y'all, y'all use it at all. Um, that

[1:35] wouldn't take the place of fire extinguisher. It would definitely be something that,

[1:39] If it's still And operational at the time.

[1:45] But those were my main concerns out there, OK. Sheriff, I mean sheriff's office,

[1:51] yeah, Ms. Keegan, Nicky Keegan, lieutenant of the county sheriff. Um, I went out

[1:56] with Fire Marshal Hogue and we, The location our commissioner. Um, and this was on

[2:02] the 11th, correct? Yes sir. Um, My issues I guess were he didn't have um

[2:10] private security lined out yet and I'm not sure if he has yet as of today um. And

[2:17] also, you know, in, when we get these kind of permits, we look at the prior history

[2:21] of the location and what's happened there, see if we've had any problems in the past.

[2:25] Um, we have had quite a few problems here in the past, as recently as this May. With

[2:33] an unapproved mass gathering that happened and Uh You're Mr. K. Yeah, Mr. K

[2:40] was arrested because of that, um, and then we've had deadly conduct. Shots have been

[2:47] fired. Uh, disagreements with landowner and even their security. Um, and then another

[2:55] mass gathering violation. Where property owner was arrested. Uh, and I know it's

[3:01] been several years, but in 202,020, I'm sorry. Um, we had a deadly conduct where

[3:07] we had a person actually shot in the. Um, so my concerns are safety and security

[3:14] at the scene. Um And I know that Mr. McClendon had told us that this isn't the same

[3:20] kind of event that they had there before, uh, but that's, that's my concern is the

[3:25] prior history there. Um, also, you know, one of the items is to be able to get a

[3:30] hold of the promoter. And the event And again we had, we all tried to contact. Set

[3:38] up the infection. Uh, and weren't able to until this, this last Friday. And so that's

[3:43] my concern too is, are we going to be able to get a hold of him on the day,

[3:52] Um, Wilson has anything price in yet, but Med Health is here. Dolores Price with

[3:59] Med Health. I was able to get the information required as far as the sanitation part

[4:05] of it, so I really don't have any questions at this time. OK, so one of the questions

[4:11] I had, I know. There were some scratch outs on things about porta potties, numbers

[4:17] of porta potties, what's required out there. Correct, normally we go by 80. Person

[4:24] per one toilet and based on the 1000 number that he had expectations, but he did

[4:31] submitted documentation where they added more restrooms, sending information regarding

[4:38] whether they're going to have potable water and stuff like that. They won't have

[4:43] any.

[4:46] Um, we, we just kind of limit ourselves to the sanitation part of it.

[4:52] Um Do you guys, do you guys have some answers for some of these questions out there?

[4:57] Have you hired security yet? We've tried. You can pass for the permit. OK. But I

[5:03] got a guy in mind. I

[5:07] It's still So that there won't be no problem in security, OK. And then the widening,

[5:13] one of the things was the widening. Simple fix is, is they cross ties for me. They're

[5:19] just gonna come and bring them back. They're gonna wire.

[5:23] Uh, one of the questions I had, and, and this is, uh, more directed to you, Mr. Kay,

[5:29] is when we were looking, when we fill out these bass gathering permits, uh, there's

[5:34] questions and, um, one of my concerns is, is it does say that The owner of the property

[5:39] where the mass gathering is held is, is you, OK, and I don't, when we looked at deeds

[5:45] and things, it's, it's showing a lot of other names and you said it was family property.

[5:50] Well, it, in this blank it says full name of owner and an S, their owner, so we Uh,

[5:57] the property that actually where, uh, you, you said it's the horse trading is going

[6:03] on where the, where the track is that, that area, um, is that, uh, is that, do you

[6:10] own that personally? That's my father's. OK, it goes to my mother. He didn't, so,

[6:18] OK, that's what we own my father's property. OK, well that in there again, that's

[6:23] another, that's a spot that you, that when you fill out these, you need to fill out

[6:28] whomever is, you know, even if they're parking on another piece of property that's

[6:32] an ant or something, uh, it needs to list, um, everybody there. Uh, one concern I

[6:38] had was Um, it said, uh, earlier I, I took a note, uh, it said in here that you were

[6:46] doing horse training, uh, and I know it's filled out on that blank. It says top of

[6:52] gathering, so it says there's a spot for music, concert, horse, dog racing, and then

[6:57] other, and you rode horse training, check it. But then later, In here, it says something

[7:05] about parking. It says parking will be on the outside perimeters of the horse racing

[7:09] area, but it, so I don't know if that. No, we're not ready,

[7:14] If I can chime in, I, I did speak with him about this and ask, um, what horse training

[7:22] consisted of. And the way that he described it to me was horses running at the same

[7:28] time beside each other and possibly earning a trophy or whatever. It is horse racing.

[7:35] What will be going on Well racing comes in when you parameter today, we're not doing

[7:41] no parameter today. And if you, if you let's say I buy a 2 year old coach. He don't

[7:47] know nothing. He don't, I don't see him run off the track. I don't see him do it

[7:50] all. So you got to have something with him to get him used to other hearts and get.

[7:56] People, it's, uh, that's the only way you say it. You got to a car if you have a

[8:01] car, you. My understanding, well, I'm coming here. The, uh, the horse racing under

[8:07] the mass gathering Act, there's two sections. There's one that says if it is a horse

[8:12] race that involves pari-mutual betting, that that is not governed by the mass gathering.

[8:19] Here what you're telling us is that horse training is not horse racing, but then

[8:25] you're saying that horse training is horse racing in the application. So hang on,

[8:29] hang on. So under the mass Gathering Act, if there is any horse racing regardless

[8:35] of the bet, so if there's a bet, then it's not under, if there's a legal bet that's

[8:42] authorized under the racing Texas Racing Act, then it does not qualify as a mass

[8:47] gathering. But you are not an authorized um. Uh, horse racing track under the Texas

[8:55] Racing Act, so you cannot have er mutual betting that would qualify, that would disqualify

[9:02] you under the mass gathering Act. So therefore, it's either gonna be horse racing.

[9:08] Or there's not. Now, there's nothing that prohibits you under the Mass Gathering

[9:12] Act from doing horse racing. You can do horse racing. It's illegal to bet if you're

[9:18] not authorized to bet, but here you're saying that Mr. McClendon is saying that it's

[9:24] horse racing. Uh, I know that we've had several instances, I'm sorry, Mr. McClendon

[9:30] is saying that it's horse training. I know we've had several instances in the past

[9:34] where there actually is horse racing outside of the pair, we're not even including

[9:39] the pari-mutual betting because that doesn't apply here. Any race that involves a

[9:45] horse, whether it's a buggy or without a buggy, whether it's trotting, uh, whatever

[9:52] that race would be where two horses are competing against each other. To go a certain

[9:58] distance and whoever gets there first, that is a race and that would fall under the

[10:04] Mass Gathering Act which then limits the which then uh limits the number of participants

[10:12] that would be required to have a mass, to get a mass gathering permit. So in this

[10:18] instance, the fact that you may have horse racing is not necessarily a problem because

[10:23] you're applying for the mass gathering act and we have approved horse racing events

[10:28] before. But I do have a problem and I think there's an issue when you say in the

[10:34] um In the application, quite frankly, it would be a little misleading to say horse

[10:39] training when you are racing. That's the, that's the nature of the training is to

[10:45] race the horse. Now, if you're getting out there and you're just running one horse

[10:49] at a time and you're timing that, You can't train about that, then, so it is horse

[10:55] racing. So I think the Texas, uh, the mass gathering statute is clear that you cannot.

[11:03] Intentionally and I believe it is um

[11:08] False or misleading information in the application that's uh 57751.007 misleading

[11:16] information or omission or omission. So in this instance, You have omitted

[11:24] or you have been Best case scenario, you have omitted the fact that you are doing

[11:29] horse racing. Or worst case scenario, you presented false and misleading information

[11:35] that uh that you are Uh, and I believe I'm gonna interrupt you, Thomas. I, I believe

[11:41] that y'all were under the understanding that you couldn't horse race. Under this,

[11:47] and so you're coming in with the idea of it's horse training. And coming in with

[11:52] that. You, uh, you can horse race under this as long as there's not betting, you

[11:57] can horse race. Uh, but it's your application has. Said training, it said, uh,

[12:06] multiple different things. I think your awards were just given for, given for the,

[12:11] uh, best looking mare and, and, and trotter and those kind of things, and you may

[12:16] be given award for those sort of things, uh, but you probably were gonna give awards

[12:21] for the horses that were trained beside each other and the one that got there first,

[12:26] correct? OK, you're just trying to do the right, you're just trying to get. Do it

[12:31] the right way. My impression is from that we've lost the race kind of clue, yeah,

[12:35] the racing part, yeah, we lost the racing part. My impression was the paramedics,

[12:41] I mean, from my standpoint talking to the lawyer. When you said racing, everybody.

[12:46] And that's what's serving to do, right? That's not what that places it. Her mission

[12:51] betting with the horse racing as Mr. Wilson described, that places you in a whole

[12:55] different category, and you're not doing that. You're just, uh, the problem is now

[13:01] is, uh, well, there's a few problems. I, I've got concerns. I, I think I feel pretty

[13:06] good about the majority of men health concerns. I mean, she doesn't really have a

[13:10] lot of concerns. Y'all aren't feeding and doing all the things and, and, and, uh.

[13:15] Serving things, so that's not a, that's not a big deal, but I do have a problem with

[13:19] the application piece. Uh, I think y'all uh came in here and you were trying to come

[13:26] across and use wording, different wording to disguise what you're going out there

[13:30] that So I'm concerned with that. Um, I believe there is omission. I believe there

[13:36] was misleading, uh, involved in that. But I also have a pretty big concern because

[13:42] I've got two law enforcement agencies over here, uh, the Fire Marshal's Office and

[13:48] Smith County Sheriff's Office, and they answered, um, there's not a lot of confidence

[13:53] in there when they're concerned about what's going on in the past. They're real concerned.

[13:59] They wrote, I think, not in.

[14:03] Something where they don't feel like for sure. They normally when we're in here,

[14:09] they're confident and they say, you know what, I feel like this is gonna go off without

[14:12] it. But with the history that's here, I'm looking back in 26, 24, 22,

[14:20] 21, 20, there's been multiple issues that have gone on and I'm concerned with that.

[14:27] Uh I would like it if, if If and when you guys come back in here, uh,

[14:35] It out slowly. Make sure you have the owners correct on all the properties to list

[14:41] them all because that's falsifying this application. What we own is my father. My

[14:47] father got 40 acres. That's his, right? But when you list the owner, when you list

[14:52] the owner, you need to list. That that your mom, whoever it was left to list and

[14:59] if you're if you're part of the property is somebody else, an aunt or uncle list

[15:04] that that you're parking on or whatever you, you see what I'm saying it needs to

[15:08] be, I know you're a family member, but it needs to be that. So, uh, with that said,

[15:14] um, Judge, I would, uh, would add, uh, so when you mentioned, uh, a couple of things

[15:20] you mentioned that food would be brought about. And but then you said no alcohol.

[15:26] Uh, would be prep. Uh, but attendees would be allowed to bring food or alcohol. You

[15:32] list it on this. So. Yeah, the issue, the issue that we run into is that,

[15:40] Uh, I think there was a statement in the fire marshal's report that the individuals

[15:45] who were participating would be allowed to, uh, bring their own alcohol. To the property.

[15:52] Or anybody showing up. Anybody showing up. Your own alcohol, correct? If if you show

[15:57] up and you want to bring a case of beer and your tooler, that's, you know, not prohibiting

[16:02] security guard gonna take that for, for whoever we have, uh, so y'all are prohibiting

[16:07] alcohol from being consumed on the.

[16:11] Because that's not what you told, I think, the sheriff's office or I just said just

[16:17] bring the food or whatever you got. You said that you can't stop them from bringing

[16:21] their own drinks. I really can't stop it unless the security guards, security guards

[16:24] could be. So, and, and that becomes a problem because under the Mass Gathering Act

[16:30] again it's the same reason for the, uh, horse racing. You have to meet a certain

[16:34] level of individuals who are under the age of 21. If 51% or more are uh younger than

[16:42] the age of 21 or you anticipate 51% or more being under the age of 21, then your

[16:48] number is lowered as well regardless of the horse racing issue. So the horse racing

[16:53] is at 100 persons, that requires a mass gathering act. I believe the um under Uh,

[17:01] 21, 51% under 21, I believe that is. Um, 500 persons.

[17:09] That's your limit or requirement to get a mass gathering permit. So there's a couple

[17:14] of issues there as well with regards to the alcohol and notice about the alcohol.

[17:20] I would also say on the landowner issues, you're also required to have a contract

[17:25] with the owners of the land. So if there are multiple tracks. Within that and the

[17:30] way that it shows on uh the Smith County records is that there are at least I think

[17:36] 6 different tracks that all touch that um that piece of property. Where you would

[17:43] be parking, participating in the event that those individuals would also have to

[17:48] sign. So it's just like the contract that you guys provided, but it would just be

[17:52] every owner. Right And then the other thing is with the security piece, you do need

[17:59] to have a, when you come in to make application for this, you need to have a contract

[18:04] with them. They, they shouldn't charge you for that, that, that would be if indeed.

[18:10] We passed, you got the permit, but you'd already have that in place, so we'd know

[18:14] that yes indeed you're gonna have that. May I add, also, if you're allowed alcohol,

[18:21] the sanitation part of it will not, be met because that would increase the number

[18:27] of toilet facilities uh that are required. Um, so, just kind of know that if you

[18:34] allow alcohol that will change.

[18:38] So on the owners for the property I have two of my In his past

[18:50] We not own a property Like 50 days away in the back that nobody goes to 50 days over

[18:54] here that nobody go to, so I have to get I think it's, I, I think it's just the property

[19:00] that you're utilizing, correct, which would be my father's, yes, and it would be

[19:04] to your mother because your father passed away, right? I, I get my mother to sign

[19:09] whatever the way, well, the way the tracks are set up, it looks like that there are

[19:12] at least um.

[19:16] I counted Circle, one circle. Well, there's the one circle that's almost split in

[19:21] half. So one circle is almost split in half.

[19:32] So there's one circle that's split in half, so the top half with the barn. That's

[19:37] owned by and shows to be owned by I believe uh Sir Lester K. Is that your father?

[19:43] Oh, that's that little bitty circle that's not a track that little bitty one that

[19:47] little field, that's not the track. The track, the big track is in, in on my. Father's

[19:54] name.

[19:56] It's a little bitty one which was what uh if you go in it'd be on the right hand

[20:01] side. No, I'm talking about the big track. Now, for look, my uncle don't own that.

[20:07] Well, the Smith County records show that for Lester, for Lester K owns the top. That's,

[20:15] that's a little bitty crack. And then that, the, the big track, the only track. That

[20:22] is an appearance on Smith County's uh website which is updated, I believe it was

[20:28] last updated in 2025. would be, A racetrack. It appears to be a full

[20:35] length horse racing circle track or oval track, right. That is split between uh the

[20:43] owners. Is, uh, Bonita K. My mom. OK. All right. And then,

[20:51] But also there's some adjacent property right next to it, where the field where you

[20:57] say you're gonna be parking based on the description. That's owned by um

[21:09] Emma Butler, that's who owns, I think that's got part of some of the service. You

[21:14] got it mixed up, OK, so, so, so who's Emma? That's my aunt. OK, so your aunt, so

[21:21] your aunt would have to sign off on it, no problem, for Lester or per Lester's, uh,

[21:27] yeah, the parking, yeah, yeah, would have to sign off on it. Then Bonita, right,

[21:31] where the parking would go, and then I believe the far one is Alberta. I don't know

[21:36] if that's we don't write it down. And there's one to the south that looks like it

[21:42] might be utilized is Annie Annie Kate, Annie Kate. So, so to clear, to clear all

[21:48] that up with y'all, y'all, y'all getting that piece. It's not. It sounds complicated,

[21:52] but it's just listing all those owners on here and then getting in contract with

[21:56] each one of those is saying yes indeed I'm allowing this to go on. Yeah, let that

[22:02] happen and then the security piece, you gotta have that piece when you come and make

[22:07] application and then you've gotta, you gotta list everything fully on this so that

[22:13] these, these folks, whether NetHealth or whatever, because if alcohol is being served,

[22:18] there has to be more fortified, correct, um, and so, or alcohol is being consumed,

[22:23] consumed the way the statute says it sold, served or consumed. So it, it's, it's

[22:30] that's the reason it's all got to be just laid out there, yeah, I understand. OK,

[22:34] I understand. So today, one more thing, there is one more thing, OK, um. There's

[22:40] testing that's required if you're having horses come across state lines. You have

[22:44] to have somebody responsible for that. So just be aware it's not listed in here,

[22:50] but I would definitely make sure that you have someone who is responsible to ensure

[22:55] that the coggins are, are done correctly and appropriately. Because that could be

[23:00] an issue. I got one more question. You said on the 500 people? What do they consist

[23:08] of? Something about the 500 people with no permit. No, no, you have to have a permit

[23:16] no matter how many people you have. Even at least 100 It takes over 100 people. If

[23:23] you have 100 or more persons, you have to have a permit for horse racing for a mass

[23:28] gathering for a mass gathering, and then, then, and that's horse racing without betting.

[23:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Or greyhound racing if you're, But uh we do we do events

[23:41] several months so we just do one application or we gotta come up for every time you

[23:46] come up for every time.

[23:49] Wow. That's just what I wanted to know. Trying to put a little cone on me. I know,

[23:54] I know we, we have, we have people who do that, by the way. There are, we won't have

[23:58] to go through this if we, if you get everything corrected, we have to go through

[24:02] the map. You have to have the map every time, right? And I think once. I'll tell

[24:10] you, once you get that done one time, make you a copy, yeah, all right, OK, all right,

[24:17] so today, um, the findings that, that we've talked about and discussed, I'm denying

[24:23] this application today, um. Uh, I think we've all learned, uh, quite a bit today.

[24:33] Thank you all very much and I'm sorry I can't just push that forward. Back problems.

[24:44] 3

Mass Gathering

Transcript